Comprehensive Grease and Lube Thread

[Tekno_Cowboy]

Re: Titanium Lubrication 101 ... Krytox + sodium nitrite - BAD COMBINATION

I thought of the problems with the quick test I did shortly after I posted. I've spent much of the morning performing a more thorough test.

To "clean" the threads of the previous lube, I made 25 passes with the lube I was replacing it with. I then made 300 passes with both GPL203 and GPL223, cleaning with alcohol every 50 passes.

After that test, I have to give the slight nod to the GPL203. The color of the grease after the 300th pass was slightly less gray than the GPL223.

While I do have to agree after that that the lube without anti-oxidation additive worked better on Ti, it's not the dramatic difference you've described.

I am using the straight from DuPont Krytox, perhaps there's something added to it when Loctite re-brands it? I was also not using much pressure, that could affect it as well.

As far as bare Al goes, I've used GPL223 and GPL226 on a couple of Jetbeams and the few custom lights I've made, and I have yet to have any issues with it. The only issue I had with the Jetbeam was that the grease liked to migrate to the end of the threads, where it didn't do as much good, and was a pain to remove.

All that said, I'll probably still switch to GPL203 when I order next, as it does seem to have a slight edge over the same grease with sodium nitrate additive.

 

[DM51]

Re: Titanium Lubrication 101 ... Krytox + sodium nitrite - BAD COMBINATION

Luminescent... it was not necessary to start a new thread on this. I'm merging it with the main sticky.

 

[kimck99]

Hi,

First, great thread. As always, it is incredible how much information is shared on this forum.

After reading a bit, I had a few questions I hope some of you can answer.

1) I was thinking of purchasing the Finish Line Extreme Fluoro from Amazon. It is stated at 20g syringe. How many applications can I get out this amount?

2) What is a typical shelf life of this product?

3) From reading the thread, it would appear that this product is great for lubing the threads and o-rings. I have alway read from other threads that one should clean the contacts on the head with products such as Deoxit. Can one use the Finish Line product as a contact cleaner?

These may be newbie type questions but then again I am certainly new to the "lube and clean" world of flashlight maintenance so your input is appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[Luminescent]

I thought of the problems with the quick test I did shortly after I posted. I've spent much of the morning performing a more thorough test. . .

As far as bare Al goes, I've used GPL223 and GPL226 on a couple of Jetbeams and the few custom lights I've made, and I have yet to have any issues with it. The only issue I had with the Jetbeam was that the grease liked to migrate to the end of the threads, where it didn't do as much good, and was a pain to remove.

All that said, I'll probably still switch to GPL203 when I order next, as it does seem to have a slight edge over the same grease with sodium nitrate additive.

I repeated the Krytox w/wo sodium nitrite test after cutting about 1/8 inch out of my tail spring on my light to lessen the tension on the threads.

The result is that now I see less of a difference between the sodium nitrite and non sodium nitrite Krytox compositions as well. The Krytox with sodium nitrite still seems to cause a little more wear and fretting, but the difference is smaller, with less tension on the joint.

So I think that we are on the same page now as far as results go.

I was kind of disappointed that the wear didn't quite drop down to zero when I lowered the spring tension, but I guess that never happens with titanium.

I think the Krytox with sodium nitrite is great for high carbon steel and some of the harder stainless steel alloys (that are not quite as completely stainless) and for the stainless alloys used in flashlights, it doesn't seem to make much difference one way or the other. So anyone who has Krytox with the sodium nitrite anti-corrosion additive, can take comfort in the fact that they can continue to use it on thier stainless steel lights (or lightly loaded titanium applications).

However, since more heavily loaded titanium and aluminum bearing surfaces seem to be happier with no sodium nitrite, and stainless steel does not seem to care whether the Krytox has sodium nitrite or not (both work incredibly well), I think your decision to try to shift towards a single non sodium nitrite composition is a good one.

Most folks will not want to keep track of two different types, and the stuff is expensive, so they will feel better knowing that purchasing a single small quantity (not two different types) is all they will need for a long time.

- Luminescent


P.S. thanks to the mods for moving my thread.

 

[Tekno_Cowboy]

Out of a syringe that size, you'll get quite a few applications. I'd say easily around 75-100, depending on how much you use per application.

The finish line is rebranded krytox, which has a very long shelf life. My dealer keeps telling me that if I buy a tube now, twenty years from now I could open it and it would still be just the way I bought it.

I wouldn't recommend a lube for cleaning anything. For cleaning, you'll want a solvent.

 

[kimck99]

Out of a syringe that size, you'll get quite a few applications. I'd say easily around 75-100, depending on how much you use per application.

The finish line is rebranded krytox, which has a very long shelf life. My dealer keeps telling me that if I buy a tube now, twenty years from now I could open it and it would still be just the way I bought it.

I wouldn't recommend a lube for cleaning anything. For cleaning, you'll want a solvent.

Thanks Cowboy. Much appreciated.

 

[Tekno_Cowboy]

I repeated the test after cutting about 1/8 inch out of my tail spring to lessen the tension on the threads.


The result is that now I see less difference of a difference between the sodium nitrite and non sodium nitrite Krytox compositions as well. The Krytox with sodium nitrite is seems to cause a little more wear and fretting, but the difference is smaller, with less tension on the joint.


So I think that we are on the same page now as far as results go.


I was kind of disappointed that the wear didn't quite drop down to zero, but I guess that never happens with titanium.

For high carbon steel and some of the harder stainless steel alloys (that are not quite as completely stainless) the Krytox with sodium nitrite still seems to be just the ticket. For the stainless alloys used in flashlights, it doesn't seem to make much difference one way or the other. So anyone who has Krytox with the sodium nitrite anti-corrosion additive, can take comfort in the fact that they can continue to use it on thier stainless steel lights, or lightly loaded titanium applications.

However, since Titanium and Aluminum, seem to be happier with no sodium nitrite, and stainless steel does not seem to care whether the Krytox has sodium nitrite or not (both work incredibly well), I think your decision to try to shift towards a single non sodium nitrite composition is a good one.

Most folks will not want to keep track of two different types, and the stuff is expensive, so they will feel better knowing that purchasing a single small quantity (not two different types) is all they will need for a long time.


- Luminescent


P.S. thanks to the mods for moving my thread.

I'm glad to hear that removing a bit of the spring helped.

I'll admit that I'm not as knowledgeable about Ti as I'd like to be, but from the few Ti items I have, I've found it's just about impossible to completely stop the wear. Not one of the dozens of lubes I've tried can do it anyways. The Krytox is simply the best I've found so far.

I did a little more testing myself, this time with some completely bare Al. I came up with similar results to the Ti. As far as bare aluminum goes, I think I'll still stick with GPL223, as the threads tend to carry current with the bare lights I have ATM.

With coated threads (anodized Al and surefire chemkote), which most of my lights are, I have seen no change in color at all. I have used GPL226 and more recently GPL223 on them for months, with no discoloration on any of them.

As far as switching to a single thickness, I think I'll keep 2 available, and just recommend the GPL203. The GPL206 has some very useful applications, and it's nice to have plenty of choices :twothumbs:

 

[tygger]

Just to be clear. GPL203 is better for Ti because is does not contain sodium nitrite? And the Loctite lube 29710 is the same product?

 

[Tekno_Cowboy]

Just to be clear. GPL203 is better for Ti because is does not contain sodium nitrite? And the Loctite lube 29710 is the same product?

GPL203 should be slightly better on Ti.

They should be similar, but are not necessarily the same product. Krytox has several varieties, and Loctite could have rebranded any one of them. From the density, you can gather that it should be around the same consistency as GPL203 or GPL223.

 

[ryball]

I got some of the NanoLube. This stuff is awesome. I put it on everything I could think of this weekend. I thought I used a ton, but the little bottle still looks full.

I almost regret sticking it on a couple of things that could use a bit more resistance than now with the nanolube... if that makes any sense.

 

[KiwiMark]

I almost regret sticking it on a couple of things that could use a bit more resistance than now with the nanolube... if that makes any sense.

The nano particles should still work to lower friction and wear, even if you add some thicker grease later to increase the resistance.

 

[Luminescent]

Tekno_Cowboy,

Do you have any of the clear Krytox base oils (GPL100 - GPL107)?

The reason that I ask is that on my lights where bare aluminum threads are part of the twisty switch, and therefore get used frequently (with moderately high tension as the head is cinched down), I have found that ALL greases with PTFE thickeners are at least mildly abrasive.

Doesn't matter if they are low cost petroleum based compositions, or high end PFPE compositions, there is still metal shedding with these greases when bare aluminum threads are turning frequently under load.

I hate to say it, since you are a fan of the high end Krytox greases, but based on the Krytox compositions that I have available, plain Mobil 1 red synthetic automotive grease at 12 dollars for a one pound can, works better than Krytox at 20 dollars an ounce when lubricating bare aluminum threads.

Mobil-1 is a smooth synthetic lithium soap grease with no PTFE.

I wonder if it is the PTFE particals, and not the Krytox PFPE base oil, that is actually aggravating fretting on reactive metals like aluminum and titanium?

Here is the logic behind this -

Simple Mobil-1 Synthetic Grease ---> Almost no Fretting or grittiness (grease turns grey very slowly over several weeks)

PTFE 'teflon lube' with Petrolium Base Oil -> Some Fretting and grittiness (grease turns black quickly)

Krytox Grease (PTFE with PFPE Base Oil) -> Still Moderate Fretting and grittiness (grease still turns black, in only a slightly longer time than cheap petrolium 'teflon lube')

In other words, it looks like the PTFE particles in the grease may be the culprit, not the PFPE Krytox base oil. Otherwise, why can a less advanced lithium soap based synthetic grease like Mobil-1 that is MINUS PTFE work better than an ultra high tech PFPE lubricant that HAS PTFE?

So I am wondering how a nice high viscosity PFPE base oil by itself (GPL107 for example) would work on bare unanodized aluminum and titanium threads under a moderate load?

I am guessing that on titanium, some PTFE may be helpful in preventing galling (but that a small amount would be better than too much - thus the 50/50 blends of grease and oil).

On non-anodized bare aluminum, I am wondering if perhaps the PFPE oil alone, with no PTFE at all, might possibly work better?

- Luminescent

 

[LuxLuthor]

Interesting additional information, and more evidence that anyone fixating on any one lube is not ideal for all lights.

 

[Luminescent]

Interesting additional information, and more evidence that anyone fixating on any one lube is not ideal for all lights.

Truer words were never spoken. At the present time at least, if you want a single lubricant solution, you should only buy a single type of light.

That said, I think the search for more effective flashlight lubricants is worthwhile, as long as it doesn't degrade into "my tinyoil can kick your megagrease's butt!"

Tekno_Cowboy,

Found something very interesting on the Krytox sodium nitrite on titanium issue.

Now that I have reduced the thread loading on my titanium twisty light, I wondered if the krytox with sodium nitrite might work much better if I allowed more time for the titanium nitride passivation layer to form.

I reasoned that right after the grease was applied this nitride layer was very thin and not very uniform, allowing it to be more easily stripped away.

Subjecting it to high thread loading right away under these conditions was pretty clearly stripping and re-forming this layer aggravating wear.

I wondered what would happen if I allowed more time for the layer to form and then applied less of a load.

In theory, if a reasonably thick smooth uniform layer of titanium nitride on each of the turning surfaces can be built up over time, and if it can then survive light loading, in theory at least, it could actually reduce the friction, galling, and fretting.

This light may remain a shelf queen for a few weeks, as I slowly lap in the threads, and try to investigate this further.

I wanted to report some early results however . . .

Last night I lubed up my titanium light with the Krytox formulation that includes sodium nitrite corrosion inhibitor. Every hour or so, I would run the threads through a few gental unloaded rotation cycles to redistribute the grease. Every few cycles of this, I clean away as much of the Krytox as possible and re-lube the light with the same Krytox sodium nitrite formulation (even though it wasn't turning black).

The idea was to expose the threads to the sodium nitrite as much as possible, before applying any load, to allow the thickest, most uniform, layer of protective titanium nitride to form.

My preliminary results show that all is well, in fact the light is turning more smoothly than ever.

So if you don't allow the sodium nitrite stuff time to work, then expose the threads to a larger load than the fragile layer can sustain, it gets stripped and in the process does more damage than not having any sodium nitrite at all.

See this Wikipedia link about nitrite corrosion inhibitors -

"If anodic inhibitors are used at too low concentration, they can actually aggravate pitting corrosion"

This seems to confirm that these additives, if not allowed to build up an adaquate protective layer, can actually aggravate problems.

When I let the grease have more time to work, and subjected it to light loads, the Krytox with sodium nitrite actually did seem to have a slight beneficial effect.

In LuxLuthor's words, no need to "fixate" over this because the effect is fairly subtle.

So for Titanium here is a summary of my results -

Low to moderate loads with occasional use => Krytox with Sodium Nitrite may be beneficial

High loads with heavy use => Krytox without Sodium Nitrite prefered.

On my stainless lights, both types of Krytox work incredibly well (though the stuff with sodium nitrite may have a slight edge) the threads turn like butter, and you can rotate them through hundreds of cycles with no noticeable wear at all.

- Luminescent

 

[Julian Holtz]

Hi!

This is what I wrote in a Quarks-related thread some time ago:

"I have been a fan of teflon grease a long time, but I recently came to use molybdenum grease with Lithium-something in it, which I purchased for my bike bearings. This grease works even better.
The same improvement I saw when I used Teflon grease instead of Silicon grease, I see now when using the molybdenum grease.

Anyhow, this grease in combination with the modified 16mm o-rings works perfect. I can easily turn the head now using one hand at the light, and its a real pleasure, as smooth as it is :twothumbs.
Now, I am 100% satisfied with my Quarks."

I learned in the meantime, that Molybdenum is mildly toxic, so skin contact should be avoided. In regular use, I found that I never need to touch the threads anyways, as everything works just perfect now, so it's a moot point for me.

Cheers,

Julez

 

[Mike The Original]

Hello everybody!

On the back label of the Tri-Flow® Superior Lubricant Drip Bottle (6 oz) is wrote:

'WARNING: This product contains a chemical known to the State of California to cause cancer. DO NOT TAKE INTERNALLY.'

What do you think about this?

Mike

 

[amuk]

Is WD-40 really that bad?

Someone has done an experiment in which an O-ring was soaked into a pool of WD-40 for a whole month and the ring was just fine:

http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-619424.html

And I've also used WD-40 on my torch too. One of my newly bought thread (EDI-T T12) has some strange "geek" sound when it twisted, and it seems to be smooth and easy to twist after applying WD-40.

So, anybody here has really try WD-40 on your torch?

 

[Dontsleeponit]

My experience with Tri-Flow clear synthetic grease

...overall, not good.

I tried it out on about 4 different lights. First I cleaned all of the threads with clean solve and a microfiber towel. Spread a small amount of the tri-flow on the surface of the o-rings and a few small dabs on the threads. Spread it out evenly and reassembled the lights. Well at first it seemed to take away the slight "grind" some of the lights had when twisting, and although they were smooth operating, they seemed to get tight.

That was yesterday, today I I played with them all again, and all of the lights were damn near stuck together. With enough force they all separated, but damn was it it tough. I also used it on the battery sleeve of my Nitecore EX10, and the light almost wouldn't even operate. This stuff definitely gums up the works.

Not what I expected at all.

Whats everyone's take on this stuff? Did I do something wrong?

 

[Billy Ram]

Re: My experience with Tri-Flow clear synthetic grease

Be careful what you grease your O-rings with. Some greases will swell the O-rings. I've had good luck with Super lube on some O-rings in metal lights. The Pelican plastic lights were very picky of what grease was used and I only had luck using silicon grease in these.
Billy

 

[lebox97]

Re: My experience with Tri-Flow clear synthetic grease

you might want to take a look at the Greese/Lube sticky at top of this section?

Tri-flow is good for metal to metal things (like gun parts and cables), but super-lube is best stuff I have ever used for everything else (including gun parts and cables)
Tri-flow otherwise has some pretty nasty stuff in it... (first clue is the several "Warning" messages on bottle?)

:wave: