SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

[Ravel]

Re: MC3000 settings charging NiMh AA, Eneloop & Tenergy

DEX 3.3.1 released
https://savannah.nongnu.org/forum/forum.php?forum_id=8970

 

[fneuf]

Re: MC3000 settings charging NiMh AA, Eneloop & Tenergy

Have someone tried to charge rechargeable coin cells, such as LIR2032, with the MC3000?
Lowest setable charge current being 50mA, this is close to a 1C charge on those cells. Looks roughly adequate on first sight.

EDIT:
after some researchs, found this occurence of conversation

kreisl, is it possible to set the charging current low enough to safely charge LIR2032 and LIR2025 cells with that dirty trick? And what about the discharge current (to measure actual capacity)?

Here is a datasheet, it quotes 35mA max current:
http://www.powerstream.com/p/Lir2032.pdf

I checked the manual. The dirty trick is basically nothing but setting the termination current to the lowest parameter possible, TERMINATION: Zero. With a fully discharged coin cell the charger would still start with 0.05A, which is higher than the 35mA coin cell spec. For the sake of experimentation and out of curiosity, i would try this charge test if i had such a coin cell. Or better, i would call the engineers at that battery manufacturing site and ask about my experiment.

The point is, if there were actual need to have lower minimum starting currents than |0.05A| and |-0.05A|, then one would have to make a strong convincing case. Of course it'd be, in theory, possible to alter the firmware code in order to lower these 2 minimum values. The MC3000 has high enough accuracy and resolution to control currents smaller than 50mA but .. let's leave it like that. Sky's arbitrary choice of the 0.05A limit looks good on paper and rings well in the ears.

For discharging, similar trick and thoughts apply. It should be possible to fully discharge this coin cell to determine its maximum capacity. Safely.

I have an even dirtier trick to propose: how does one activate trickle charging on LiIon programming?:devil:
This would allow to define sub 50mA current charge rates.

 

[Albert_]

The eneloops are straight forward. They need no break in and yes the mc3000 has a break in mode. Set Type to eneloop, model to AA Std. The default values are fine for everything else except for maybe time. I don't remember what the default time is but 300 should be fine. The 2500mAh Tenergy AA's are rated the same as eneloop AA pros so you could make it easy for yourself and choose model AA Pro to charge them and leave the defaults. If you want to make a program for the Tenergys I would do Type NiMh, Cap 2700, C.Cur 1.25A, Targ. V 1.65V, Delta 3mv, Temp 45, Time 300.

I'm going to attempt to compare the Eneloops 2000mah to the Tenergy 2500mah using the MC3000. From what I've read the Eneloops are superior however I want to test for myself differences between the two NiMH AAs. The cost for a 12 pack of Eneloops 2000mah is the same as a 12 pack of Tenergy Supreme 2500mah.

 

[Albert_]

Received the Tenergy 2500s today and currently have four of them in MC3000s Break-in program mode with the other settings to their defaults.

New from the package the batteries are at around 1.2x. volts each.

I also am running Dex, however not familiar with Dex I'm currently reading through the manual and assuming that DEX logging is turned on by default?

I'm attempting to compare the Tenergy 2500s to the Eneloop 2000s, which will allow me to become more familiar with Dex and the MC3000.

I was able to eventually able to change the temperature reading output from Centigrade to Fahrenheit from DEX's Device Properties Editor.

Individual battery slot temperature readings are around ~30 deg. F and system temperature is reading at ~318 deg F. which is too high iirc it system temperature should be around 185 deg F?

After checking the MC3000 temperature settings, it was set to Centigrade so I switched it to Fahrenheit. Now Dex is back to having mixed temperature output both in F (Fahrenheit) and C (Centigrade) Combi-5 the system temperature is Fahrenheit however individual slots the temp. output is back to Centigrade.

From Dex. Device Properties editor I have any temperature settings set to F (Fahrenheit) where I entered a "F" in the temperature setting box.

From the digital tab system temperature showing to be ~306 deg F

With my 1080p monitor Dex is sorta difficult to read as my system fonts even though set to extra large Dex fonts are much smaller.

From what I can read and determine individual battery temperatures when Combi-5 and all active slots selected is around 80 deg. F.

When I select an individual slot e.g. Slot 1 and 1 - Continuous data the Battery temperature is showing to be above 800 deg. F.

Perhaps I'm using and/or reading Dex incorrectly but the temperature readings don't appear to be consistent and I think both temperature outputs are incorrect?

Is there some sort of Dex font setting so I'm able to better read the tabular output displays and configuration boxes?

 

[Meyer]

Those products looks really interesting, I'll have a look at them. Thanks!

Open firmware for DPS Modules

 

[LiteTheWay]

So is this MAC address business an indication of:

- the latest HW build - in which case how is this build different from the one I got from NKON in August 2016 which was then
the latest HW build with all the problematic bits fixed?

- or really an indication of FW?

Mine shows FW 1.10 - I have not updated it but know I can. Mine also shows HW 1.4+. I can't make it show MAC address however.

I know none of this really matters but am interested anyway. So Kreisl ....... ?

( No, i was just curious if yours could show MAC too. It means that it's the latest build. :huh: )

 

[Albert_]

Tried switching temperature settings from MC3000 and Dex to "C" Centigrade.

Temperature reading from individual slots (slot 1 - 4) and Comb-5 (All active slots) is around ~250 deg C for both battery and system temperatures.

I guess I don't really require any battery or system temperature data. However I'm finding Dex not to be so useful because the fonts are too small to read the data output and menus.

Perhaps a better option would be to save and send logged data to a database program such as Excel.

 

[paulantoine]

Hello

Thanks for the incredible amount of information I've found in this thread !

I received a MC3000 a week ago. I have been playing with it and many batteries since.

I find the app with the curves + IR measurement very userful to understand what happens with bad or (very) old cells. I've sorted hopeless dead batteries from other than can be still used for low current needs.

All in all I'm very pleased with this charger.

PA

 

[viperxp]

Got the charger today (from GB), here are some observations :

1. Size - I was expecting it to be huge, but it is bearable. Not much bigger than my MAHA.
2. Played with it a bit today - works as it should, during charging on moderate currents fan never started working.
3. FW 1.13 HW > 1.3 . No mysterious MAC display option ....
4. Connected it to the PC, working good with W10 64 bit. Tried only the MC3000 monitor, will get to data explorer later. The software itself is very limited, no option to start/stop only one slot and so on.
5. Overall satisfied with the purchase. Even several hours of reading this thread and reading the manual did not prepare me to all the possible settings of the charger.
6. No complains whatsoever about the quality of plastics, feels almost premium.
7. The buttons are super noisy, clicking a button in a room with a sleeping person is very tricky (and risky).
8. My PC did not detect the charger while connected to USB3 port, worked without a problem on USB2.

Now to questions

1. I have a cat, and a kid that touches everything he gets his hands on. The USB connector does not seem like it could take a lot of beating. Have anyone found some creative solution of securing the USB cable inside the socket?
I am thinking about thermal glue al around the connector, it would look uggly but will keep things safe. Is there a better solution by anyone?
2. How you are managing your programs ? I mean for example 1-10 charge ,11 -20 discharge, 21-30 cycle/experimental ? Or 1-10 nimh, 11-20 lithium, 21-30 eneloop? It's very interesting.

Overall meanwhile I am very happy with the purchase, it surely does worth the money they ask for it.

 

[Ravel]

Got the charger today (from GB), here are some observations :
30 cycle/experimental ? Or 1-10 nimh, 11-20 lithium, 21-30 eneloop? It's very interesting.

Overall meanwhile I am very happy with the purchase, it surely does worth the money they ask for it.

Ranked by most usage, and by type AA, AAA, the newish one, and the very old.
But I have an excel spreadsheet of the 30 programs (needed if you flash a new firmware)
and handy to see if programs are not about the same

 

[Ravel]

Tried switching temperature settings from MC3000 and Dex to "C" Centigrade.

Temperature reading from individual slots (slot 1 - 4) and Comb-5 (All active slots) is around ~250 deg C for both battery and system temperatures.

I guess I don't really require any battery or system temperature data. However I'm finding Dex not to be so useful because the fonts are too small to read the data output and menus.

Perhaps a better option would be to save and send logged data to a database program such as Excel.

These Temp make no sense (I understand only Celcius, not F)
Is this 250 C or 25.0 ? Look carefully at the scale, try to change it.

Much less likely, you are using an old version of DEX, just at the time temperature
became available (3.2.7 or 3.2.8 maybe)

It is surprising you cannot see well the data in DEX
You better post pictures and explanation about your windows version

Excel : indeed you can since DEX can export data as CSV files

 

[Albert_]

These Temp make no sense (I understand only Celcius, not F)
Is this 250 C or 25.0 ? Look carefully at the scale, try to change it.

Much less likely, you are using an old version of DEX, just at the time temperature
became available (3.2.7 or 3.2.8 maybe)

It is surprising you cannot see well the data in DEX
You better post pictures and explanation about your windows version

Excel : indeed you can since DEX can export data as CSV files

Dex version 3.3.1

The Fahrenheit scale is a temperature scale based on one proposed in 1724 by Amsterdam-based physicist Daniel Gabriel Fahrenheit (1686–1736), after whom the scale is named.[1]​ It uses the degree Fahrenheit (symbol: °F) as the unit

The lower defining point, 0 °F, was established as the temperature of a solution of brine made from equal parts of ice and salt. Further limits were established as the melting point of ice (32 °F) and his best estimate of the average human body temperature (96 °F, about 2.6 °F less than the modern value due to a later redefinition of the scale).[2]​ The scale is now usually defined by two fixed points: the temperature at which water freezes into ice is defined as 32 °F, and the boiling point of water is defined to be 212 °F, a 180 °F separation, as defined at sea level and standard atmospheric pressure. By the end of the 20th century, Fahrenheit was used as the official temperature scale only in the United States (including its unincorporated territories), its freely associated states in the Western Pacific (Palau, the Federated States of Micronesia and the Marshall Islands), the Bahamas, Belize, and the Cayman Islands[3]​. All other countries in the world now use the Celsius scale, defined since 1954 by absolute zero being −273.15 °C and the triple point of water being at 0.01 °C.[4]​



United States customary units are a system of measurements commonly used in the United States. The United States customary system (USCS or USC) developed from English units which were in use in the British Empire before the U.S. became an independent country. However, the United Kingdom's system of measures was overhauled in 1824 to create the imperial system, changing the definitions of some units. Therefore, while many U.S. units are essentially similar to their Imperial counterparts, there are significant differences between the systems. However, in the U.S. the term "imperial" is often used in error when referring to a U.S. customary unit.

When I look at a thermometer here in the US it normally is in Fahrenheit, where some may also include Centigrade, but I think in my mind as temperature being in Fahrenheit rather than centigrade measurements.

I'm uncertain why the temperature readings from Dex are being output incorrectly.

Here are some pics of Dex. with everything set to Fahrenehit.

I upgraded my monitor to a NEC V323-AVT 1920 x 1080p. After upgrading I needed to change Windows DPI scaling to a custom size of 168 or 175 % so I'm able to read various Windows screens.

However some apps changing the DPI scaling has adverse effect on the programs display boxes being too large, too small or the size of the fonts won't adjust to a native resolution of 1920 x 1080.

Dex does allow to change font size for some of it's output screens with varying results.

My main concern is the battery and system temperature output. I'm not getting tempertures that appear to be within MC3000 specifications.

MC3000 nominal temperature ranges.

Battery Temperature: 20°C ~ 70°C safety cut-off (+ safety net) (68 deg. F ~ 158 deg F.)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Temperature: 85°C safety net (185 deg. F)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Operating Temperature: 0°C ~ 40°C ventilated room (32 deg. F ~ 104 deg. F)

Dex Device Properties Editor becomes difficult to read with my current monitor and graphic settings of a native 1920 x 1080 resolution.

 

[zeroair]

Is it possible to turn off the "beep on completion"? I have both system sound options set to OFF and the unit still beeps on completion. This is extremely annoying [to my loving wife].

I have searched this thread (and elsewhere).

Thanks.

 

[Ravel]

Is it possible to turn off the "beep on completion"? I have both system sound options set to OFF and the unit still beeps on completion. This is extremely annoying [to my loving wife].

I have searched this thread (and elsewhere).

Thanks.

AFAIK, you can turn off every sound including beep on completion
Do not remember where in the setup menu

 

[Ravel]

What are FW and HW version (if somebody does know if this can impact Temperature measurement)
since you have an ok version of DEX

Did you try to change the display in dex
Right click on left where square boxes are, and select number of digits (if I recall)
zou will have options like 0.000 00.00 000.0 0000 and so on

 

[zeroair]

AFAIK, you can turn off every sound including beep on completion
Do not remember where in the setup menu

Seems like in Dummy mode, the unit will always beep on completion.

In Advanced mode, turning off beep will in fact turn off every beep.

I did not try the middle mode.

 

[viperxp]

I noticed small problem in the IOS application:

Small problem - in ni-mh instead of "Delta V" there is "Detal V"

And some questions

when exactly is the internal resistance test is being conducted during charge? In some intervals? What about discharge process?
if I set .. delta V of 0V, for how long the delta V of 0V should continue before charge is terminated? Same question regarding charge cut current for LiIon, for how long the charge cut current should go on before the charger desides to stop the charging process?

 

[Ravel]

My main concern is the battery and system temperature output. I'm not getting tempertures that appear to be within MC3000 specifications.

MC3000 nominal temperature ranges.

Battery Temperature: 20°C ~ 70°C safety cut-off (+ safety net) (68 deg. F ~ 158 deg F.)

Ok this is clearer to help, although you need to wait for the guru of the thread to be back

In one picture syst T is 73.5F then 809F
It makes no sense
What are the graphs like against time ?

Either you have some USB interferences (look in the thread), try to unplug USB devices,
try the MC3000 on another computer.
I remember having spikes in values using USB ports 3.0, stuff were better with 2.0.
Try other USB ports
And first of all try with a USB cable of quality (this can be an issue as well sometimes)

I looks like you can discard some misconfigurations (you did not play with multipliers
in DEX configuration)

Otherwise it could be knackered thermocouples, but this would be odd
This is why I ask for data against time

Please provide Celcius data this will be easier for some of us to interpret

 

[Ravel]

I noticed small problem in the IOS application:

Small problem - in ni-mh instead of "Delta V" there is "Detal V"

And some questions

when exactly is the internal resistance test is being conducted during charge? In some intervals? What about discharge process?
if I set .. delta V of 0V, for how long the delta V of 0V should continue before charge is terminated? Same question regarding charge cut current for LiIon, for how long the charge cut current should go on before the charger desides to stop the charging process?

Ri at charge measured at the very beginning
dV=0 for how long ? No clue on the algorithm used.
Could be just a set time value or something more complicated
depending on the slope before plateau is reached
Waiting for a guru input

 

[Albert_]

Ok this is clearer to help, although you need to wait for the guru of the thread to be back

In one picture syst T is 73.5F then 809F
It makes no sense
What are the graphs like against time ?

Either you have some USB interferences (look in the thread), try to unplug USB devices,
try the MC3000 on another computer.
I remember having spikes in values using USB ports 3.0, stuff were better with 2.0.
Try other USB ports
And first of all try with a USB cable of quality (this can be an issue as well sometimes)

I looks like you can discard some misconfigurations (you did not play with multipliers
in DEX configuration)

Otherwise it could be knackered thermocouples, but this would be odd
This is why I ask for data against time

Please provide Celcius data this will be easier for some of us to interpret

I'm going to keep the setup "F" Fahrenheit for now as Dex displays the same sort of off temperature readings in "C" Centigrade and I'm in the US and don't really related to centigrade.

My USB cables are of good quality and not the cheap kind that fall apart. I have been purchasing PCs and related equipment for more than 35 years. Back in the day a typical comm, hd, video, etc cable ran a min of $30.00 (in 80 dollars) and most were hand made, built by cable makers. I don't purchase junk PC and related items and have owned PC's for more than 35 years.

There is so much junk on the market today. Many of the manufactures spend more on a design that fails within a certain amount of time than they do on the actual design. Years ago the manufacturing rule was to manufacture products to last 30 years and longer and designed so a product could be easily repaired if necessary. Today manufactures design products to fail usually sometime just after the warranty or extended warranty expires. Products aren't normally designed and produced so they can be repaired, only replaced.

Anyway the MC3000's battery and system temps aren't always the same as being produced by DEX. Though Dex does seem to follow the temperature unit setting of the MC3000 with it's system temperature output.

E.g.

Slot 1 - Batterytemp = 93/117 deg. F
Slot 1 - Systemp = 102 deg. F

Dex Analog and Digital tab produces battery temp of 800+ deg F. and a system temp of ~90 degs F.

Perhaps something in Dex is configured incorrectly? Dex's Device Property Editor shows the temperature unit as deg. "F" However at times this setting switch all by itself to "C" and then back to "F"

I'm still becoming familiar with Dex perhaps there's something I'm overlooking?

Dex has so far recognize MC3000's temperature unit setting, e.g. DEX will readout "system temperature" from tabs such as Digital and Analog based on MC3000's unit temperature setting. However from observation at the same time the temperature unit setting may or may not change from the Device Property Editor.