Stumbling into a post Welch Allyn world

[bridgman]

In our previous episode (around 2007 IIRC) our hero had just moved from the suburbs out to the sticks, didn't want to add to the light pollution by ringing the property with conventional lighting, and so was thrust into the world of CPF. Ended up with a fairly typical selection of great lights - a 3D Mag85, whatever you call a 2D with WA1111, a 2D ROP high which became a ROP low after the Hi bulb blew, and a MagCharger with 1160.

I had a couple of spare bulbs, apparently fell back to the original MC bulb after the last 1160 blew, and had also started collecting pressure lamps so was fairly well covered until recently when my last 1185 blew and the battery pack died shortly afterwards. Came back to CPF and found that things had not improved in my absence. In particular WA's bulb division shut down and so anything depending on a WA**** bulb (or Penguin 3854 for that matter) was facing some risk.

Even worse, LEDs had become brighter and more efficient, enough that people were abandoning their One True Light Source and starting to fill the world with LED's sickly blue glow. Truly the end of days.

Fortunately LuxLuthor had left a vast repository of information about both obsolete and still-available bulbs, while konifans and Techjunkie (among others) had started threads talking about specific sources for WA alternatives. After a flurry of searching and ordering I now have the following bulbs on their way...

Panasonic
JE3.6V13W-N LR001930
JE8.4V30W-N LR003920
JE10.8V30W-N LR003930
(there was also a 4.8v 13W that I should have ordered as a MagCharger upgrade, and will order once I finish testing the other 3 bulbs)

G4 Halogen Bulbs - 3.6V 4.8V 8.4V 10.8V

If you are looking for G4 Halogen bulbs with voltage 3.6V, 4.8V, 8.4V and 10.8V, have a look at Amazon Japan. These are made by Panasonic and Toshiba, since more than 10 years ago. I am not sure if they are discontinued or not. I did some research and I believe these have standard size and spec...

www.candlepowerforums.com

Hikari
JC5607 JC20/6V 20 Watt 6 Volt JC Halogen G4 Base (I ordered 20 of these because they looked so promising)
JC5609 JC30/6V 30 Watt 6 Volt JC Halogen G4 Base
JC5605 JC10/6V 10 Watt 6 Volt JC Halogen G4 Base

Philips
7388 6V 20W G4

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/poor-mans-fm1909-1-bulb.253134/

Osram
64250 6V 20W G4

... along with a couple of MagCharger and Mag 6 cell MagnumStar bulbs. Also included a couple of WA 1274 bulbs in my latest FiveMega order.

As these bulbs dribble in I'll check them out and see how they work.

First to arrive were three Osram 64250's - I ordered a couple from Canada via Amazon then forgot and ordered 3 more from China via EBay. Predictably the bulbs from China arrived first, with nice Osram boxes and what I imagine were Chinese-language inventory stickers.

Initial testing could best be described as abortive, so I'll do more testing once more parts arrive. For initial testing I used the WA1111 2D Maglite, with a ceramic bi-pin adapter from <either FiveMega or Kiu> and the usual aluminum reflector / glass lens combo. Power came from 6 AA Eneloops in an FM 6aa-2D holder - batteries were not fresh off the charger but had run the WA1111 for maybe a minute total since charging a couple of weeks ago.

In case anything wanted to blow up I plugged the bulb in, pointed it away from me, and switched on without reflector. Nice white light but a lot of artifacts from the curli-cue glass on the top of the bulb - I figure that the reflector would eliminate most of those. Encountered problem #1 when I went to screw the bezel/reflector/lens combination onto the barrel - the bulb was much too fat to fit through the opening in the reflector. A bit of checking confirmed that all of my aluminum reflectors had the same opening, so swapped in a plastic original Maglite reflector and tried again.

That's where problem #2 came in - the bulb has a normal bubble surrounding the filament but then has a much taller flat section than I'm used to seeing with WA bulbs... so the filament is quite high above the bi-pin socket. It is probably possible to jam the light post down at the bottom of its travel but I didn't remember how to do that, so I just unscrewed the bezel as far as I could in the hope of reaching focus. In the end I got pretty close to focus at the end of the threads but there was still a ways to go, and the artifacts were still present.

I have three aluminum reflectors on order - two different OP models from Kaidomain (both seem to have wide opening so I gather the difference is in reflector shape) plus a MagCharger MOP from FiveMega. It's possible that one of those will reach focus and clean up the artifacts, but until I see that I can't recommend 64250s for flashlight use despite being inexpensive and apparently a good fit for a 6AA power source:

https://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h75/pike444/bulbs/64250.jpg (link from LuxLuthor's "Destructive Incan Testing" page at https://www.candlepowerforums.com/t...ts-updated-8-27-2010-newer-info-added.179748/ )

The Panasonic bulbs from amazon.jp just showed up (thanks konifans) so will try them next. Will come back to this post and add battery voltages, and maybe (a) retry with freshly charged batteries, (b) capture some beamshots if I can reduce the ugly.

 

[knucklegary]

Please keep us posted how the KD OP/MOP (textured surface finish) reflectors work with the collection of bulbs..

 

[fivemega]

3D Mag85, whatever you call a 2D with WA1111, a 2D ROP high which became a ROP low after the Hi bulb blew, and a MagCharger

WA1331 and WA1318 work as LO WA1185 and same power pack (9AA or 3x18650, 3x21700, 3x27650)
Philips 5761 also will work as HO WA1111 with 6 Eneloops or pair of large IMRs in 2D M*g, MgCharger and ....

 

[konifans]

JE8.4V30W -- this one is perfect for 3 x Lifepo4 batteries
JE10.8V30W -- this one is perfect for 3 x Li-ion batteries

5761 6V30W G4 -- this one is perfect for 2 x Lifepo4 batteries
7388 6V 20W G4 -- this one is perfect for 2 x Li-ion batteries
64250 6V 20W G4 -- with 2 x Li-ions, it is easy to , I use this for 2 x Lifepo4 batteries

To upgrade the MagCharger, I think a 13W bulb is not enough... I use 5761 6V30W with 2 x 32700 6000mah) Lifepo4 with a spacer.

 

[bridgman]

Quick update - the care package from fivemega arrived, including an aluminum OP reflector for incandescent MagCharger with 11mm opening. I installed it and replaced the stock MC bulb (or whatever was in there, might have been a WA1160) and was pleased to see that the 64250 went through the opening in the reflector AND was able to reach focus without any tricks.

It's still light out but initial impression is that the MC is at least as bright as a WA1111 in a Mag 2D with ceramic socket on 6 AA Eneloops. It's definitely whiter. I'm being a bit vague because the 64250 gives a tighter spot in the MC than the WA1111 in 2D and I haven't done enough fiddling to get the spot sizes close enough to call it. The WA1111 / 2D also has an OP reflector, believe it is one of FM's as well.

I guess this is how people end up with integrating spheres and light meters, isn't it ? Guessing my first step should be a digital camera with manual control of shutter speed and aperture - I have some of those but they all take 35mm film.

@konifans - interesting point about using LiFePO4 cells to fine-tune voltage... hadn't thought about that. Thanks !!

The 7388's and JE bulbs I ordered also just showed up, so lots of things to play with.

 

[bridgman]

To upgrade the MagCharger, I think a 13W bulb is not enough... I use 5761 6V30W

Agreed. After a couple of weeks I'm really liking the MagCharger / 64250 / FM MOP reflector combination. I am surprised how white the output is given that I'm running it at rated 6V, but I guess a 100 hr rating rather than 2000 hr means something.

I'm not sure what was in the MC before (thought it was an 1160 but the 64250 seemed a bit brighter), but I wasn't sure how high I could go on power with a stock MC reflector.

Now that I have the FM aluminum reflector in I just need to avoid melting the socket... and I have a ceramic bi-pin post from FM waiting for installation there as well.

with 2 x 32700 6000mah) Lifepo4 with a spacer.

Interesting... I don't think I was aware that 32700 LiFePo4 cells existed. That seems like pretty good capacity compared to 26650 and 21700 li-ion cells given that LiFePo cells tend to have much lower capacity for the same size. Will have a look, thanks !

I guess it would be smart for me to do some voltage measurements and see how the output of 6 NiMH's compares to the output of 2 LiFePO4's to see if I need both in order to cover the voltage ranges.

BTW are these LiFePo cells typically protected or unprotected when used in flashlights ? In other words do I need to be my own battery management system ?

 

[lctorana]

I guess it would be smart for me to do some voltage measurements and see how the output of 6 NiMH's compares to the output of 2 LiFePO4's to see if I need both in order to cover the voltage ranges.

3.2V per cell is the design center figure, so 6.4V. Very close to 3 lead acid cells (nominally 6.3v)

Here's the LifePO4 chart (double the figures for 2 cell use):

(credit to https://footprinthero.com/lifepo4-battery-voltage-charts for this chart)

Note this applies to any LiFePO4 cell, from tiny 18500 to those big enough to power your house.

BTW are these LiFePo cells typically protected or unprotected when used in flashlights ?

Unprotected.

In other words do I need to be my own battery management system ?

Yes, always. eBay sellers sell BMS to put a given number of batteries in series. They are rated for current and number of cells. Here is the one I bought for 6.4V use last year, as an example.

 

[lctorana]

Oh, and 2 more things about the 6.4 voltage of 2 LifePO4 cells:

a) almost exactly matches FIVE NiMH cells
b) is a perfect match made in heaven for ye olde Eveready #1163 camping light bulb.

 

[bridgman]

OK, I finally got around to opening up the box of bulbs I had ordered from Bulb Town - Hikari JC5605, 5607 and 5609. The 5607's (6V 20W) were the ones I was most interested in based on Techjunkie's thread above ("poor mans fm1909").

First test was in my Mag85, which had been languishing for years since the WA1185 bulb burned out. I plugged in a 5607 and dropped in 9 slightly used Eneloops - 6 in a FiveMega holder and 3 in one of those $1 adapters from Amazon - for a nominal 10.8 volts. I figured that starting with slightly used cells and a designed-for-low-current AA-D adapter would give me the best chance of getting some light before it blew.

Wonderful, bright, white light again. It's alive !!

The bulbs were just over $1 US each - ended up paying about $35 for bulbs (I bought about 30 in total) plus $56 for shipping to Canada, all in USD. Shipping a small number of bulbs wasn't much cheaper so I ordered enough that the Mag85 should be able to outlive me.

Next step will be fully charging the Eneloops to see how that works, but I am definitely very happy with the 5607 bulbs so far. I have my Mag85 back - how could I not be happy ?

I don't have a good way to measure lumens but I guess I can try to set a piece of newspaper on fire to get a ballpark reading. I *think* the hotspot from the 5607 is larger than it was from the 1185 so that might be an issue, will see.

EDIT - I did get a chance to go out last night and test it against a LumensFactory Seraph SP-9 Turbo head with a claimed 2000 lumen output - the 5607 seemed a bit dimmer but not much, although it was hard to be sure because the colour temperatures were so different (incan vs cool white). The SP-9 was running on 2 18500's rather than 3 CR123's and may have been a bit less bright as a consequence, not sure.

Anyways, 5607's are still interesting 13 years later (Techjunkie's post was in 2009) and Bulb Town seems like a good source, particularly if you live in the US where shipping is much less.

 

[yellow]

Haha, thats funny.
I only clicked into that thread, because the only "link" I have with
Welch Allyn and lights
is to their 10 W HID bulbs & ballasts,
and wondering what direction that topic might go.
Seems you all see any incan bulb as Welch Allyn?

 

[Stress_Test]

I think the idea is that the W.A. aren't in production anymore and all that's left are the knock-off clones (which maybe use the same part number.....?) I really don't know much about this topic, I've only looked at the lower power PR flange stuff for Maglites. And it looks like the stocks of factory Mag bulbs are running out too...

 

[bridgman]

Seems you all see any incan bulb as Welch Allyn?

Absolutely not - but it's probably fair to say that most of the bulbs in the hotwire Maglite world were either WA made AND branded or custom made by WA for someone else. GE was a significant player in the higher power space (eg aircraft landing lights) but in the medium power / small filament (for tightest beam) space WA was the best-known supplier, with Pelican bulbs as sort of a gateway bulb (ROPs) since they were PR packaged rather than bi-pin.

Now that WA and Pelican are out of that business it leaves a medium-sized hole in terms of bulb supply and a huge hole in terms of availability of the bulbs that everyone has become familiar with.

 

[bridgman]

I think the idea is that the W.A. aren't in production anymore and all that's left are the knock-off clones (which maybe use the same part number.....?) I really don't know much about this topic, I've only looked at the lower power PR flange stuff for Maglites. And it looks like the stocks of factory Mag bulbs are running out too...

I haven't seen any WA clones for sale yet although I have seen them mentioned... all of the bulbs I have been able to find have been from first-line competitors that go back as far as WA but in different countries (Japan being the main one) with no commonality in numbering.

Fortunately CPF history goes back far enough to help identify some of those other bulbs (which I have started buying and testing) and LuxLuthor's tests provide some great context and reference information:

Destructive Incan Bulb Tests - Updated 8/27/2010 (Newer Info Added)

6/28/09 Note: Ictorana's Graphs are now being presented in this other pinned thread. 8/14/09: Shoutout to Drewfus2101 for doing destructive testing of most of the potted Maglite bulbs in charts linked here. I started testing bulbs after thinking about various ways to get some REAL bulb data...

www.candlepowerforums.com

 

[ebuchner]

How are you liking the 5609?