Zebralight SC53w 198 Lm Test - Eneloop Pro vs Vapcell H10 & F12

[Lips]

 

[Lips]

Reserved

 

[chillinn]

Ending Voltage 1.58 v
...
Ending Voltage .84v
...
Ending Voltage .84v
...
Ending Voltage .83v
...
Ending Voltage .87v
...
Ending Voltage .82v

Thanks, Lips. If anyone still believed SC53w had low voltage protection, this should set them straight.

 

[this_is_nascar]

Well, that's not good.

 

[Christoph]

Thanks Lips.Good to know .
Makes me glad I'm not in the habit of letting my light to take care of my cells.

 

[lampeDépêche]

Thanks, Lips!
The difference between the 10A Vapcell and the 3A Vapcell is very interesting. On the one hand, the 3A got almost twice the run-length on high -- points to the 3A. On the other hand, the 10A descended through the modes in a more useful way -- I'd rather have 5 hours of low at the end of the battery's life. So, advantage to the 10A on that count.
Finally -- the difference in shut-off voltage is also very striking. The 10A shut itself down at 2.98v, which is slightly lower than I like to run them, but not a disaster for the cell. The 3A ran down to 1.58v, which is a disaster for the cell.
A lot to think about here!

 

[chillinn]

The 3A ran down to 1.58v, which is a disaster for the cell.

Well, it's definitely not good, but I wouldn't call it disaster. Lithium nickel chemistry, LiNiMnCoO2 (INR), like lithium manganese, LiMn (IMR) and other hybrid chems, can tolerate over discharge to some extent, but at the expense of some loss of capacity and/or current, compounding each time it occurs and depending on how long the voltage was below 2.5V and how long it was under load. Given a rest period, any brief over discharges should recover to 2.5V. There's certainly no risk to the user when subsequently charging, like with LiCo (ICR), which was the reason they commonly were protected. Over-discharged unprotected ICR cells should be discarded or recycled, but never recharged.

 

[jon_slider]

> ending voltage: 1,58V

the Protected Lumintop 14500 w built in USB charging, solves the lack of reliable LVP in the SC53 series

LiIon is officially UnSupported. Overdischarging is less bad for newer chemistries.. depends on user preference whether they want automatic protection or not..

there are tradeoffs..

UnProtected cells will keep providing dim light instead sudden darkness.. but if I gift a LiIon light, I choose one that has either built in protection in the driver, or comes w a protected cell

an unprotected cell in an unprotected light, is less ideal, unless the operator is a trained operator that will monitor voltage and avoid overdischarge.

I am under the same impression as Chillin about the advantages of INR and IMR chemistry, as being less risky to use after short term overdischarge and prompt recharging. Depends whether the operator is actively involved in monitoring charge levels

Lithium nickel chemistry, LiNiMnCoO2 (INR), like lithium manganese, LiMn (IMR) and other hybrid chems, can tolerate over discharge to some extent

HDS has similar info, see the FAQ section titled:
What are rechargeable lithium-ion batteries?

"There are three different lithium-ion battery chemistries compatible with our flashlights - often designated as ICR, IMR and INR.

The oldest and most common lithium-ion battery chemistry is know as ICR - Lithium Cobalt Oxide (LiCoO2). This chemistry requires a protection circuit to be used safely due to the chemistry's inherent instability. The advantage of this chemistry is its higher total capacity - allowing 50% greater capacity in the larger battery sizes compared to the IMR and slightly higher capacity compared to INR chemistries. The disadvantages are the required protection circuit increases the battery size, lowers the total performance at high discharge rates and adds another failure mode to the battery system.

A more recent lithium-ion battery chemistry is the very safe chemistry known as IMR - Lithium Manganese Oxide (LiMn2O4). In fact, this chemistry is considered safe enough to use without a protection circuit and is thus more reliable when used in harsh conditions, such as gun mounted applications.

The newest lithium-ion battery chemistry is the very safe chemistry known as INR - Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide (LiNiMnCoO2). This chemistry combines the safety of the IMR chemistry with the capacity of the ICR chemistry. And no protection circuit is required, making this a very reliable battery. We believe this is the battery chemistry of choice going forward."

 

[chillinn]

the Protected Lumintop 14500 w built in USB charging, solves the lack of reliable LVP in the SC53 series

This costs twice as much as F12 or H10 and has a 1A max continuous discharge current rating. If protection is desired, I'd steer towards KeepPower's P1450C2, costs less, but no built in charger, but it least it has a 4A rating. That is, of course, if it fits.

The oldest and most common lithium-ion battery chemistry is know as ICR - Lithium Cobalt Oxide (LiCoO2).

Though it definitely has been for the majority of the time liion has been available by a wide margin, I'm not sure it is the most common anymore today. Seems to have largely been superseded by hybrid chemistries such as NCR and especially INR, while IMR availability hasn't seemed to have changed either way. Just my personal impression, ymmv.

 

[jon_slider]

here are the lengths of two cells that are known to fit:

UnProtected Vapcell F12 is 49mm long, 3A continuous discharge rate
Protected Lumintop 14500 is 50.5mm long, 4A continuous discharge rate

not known if it fits:
Protected Keeppower P1450C2 is 52mm long, 4A continuous discharge rate

 

[n2mb_racing]

The F12 looks amazing. Looks like double the runtime of the best nimh.

If you are sure to shut off the light soon after it drops in brightness, do you think we could use Li-ions in these newer gen zebralights safely?

 

[chillinn]

The F12 looks amazing. Looks like double the runtime of the best nimh.

Hard to tell exactly what the runtime is on either. Surely, F12 has more runtime, but just looking at Test 2 and Test 3, both cells dropped down to cell-damaging voltages. I don't know how you'd calculate from Test 2 what the runtime would have been when the cell was at 3.6V, when the test should have ended (which is not Lips' fault— the light lacks LVP), but Test 3 ended at 0.84V, which is much closer to 0.9V than, in Test 2, 1.58V is to 3.6V, but it suggests that F12 runtime is probably not twice the runtime of Eneloop Pro.

 

[jon_slider]

do you think we could use Li-ions in these newer gen zebralights safely?

Yes, if you get in the habit of checking battery voltage, and recharge any time it goes below 3.7V.

Dont allow the battery to drain below 2.7V. Your Brain is the LVP.

Dont fall asleep w the light on at a high enough output to drain the battery overnight.. ;-)

 

[n2mb_racing]

Yes, if you get in the habit of checking battery voltage, and recharge any time it goes below 3.7V.

Dont allow the battery to drain below 2.7V. Your Brain is the LVP.

Dont fall asleep w the light on at a high enough output to drain the battery overnight.. ;-)

If you only use it on high 1 and recharge when it drops to medium, that seems like it would work, right? I'd be using their latest headlamp.

 

[jon_slider]

If you only use it on high 1 and recharge when it drops to medium, that seems like it would work, right? I'd be using their latest headlamp.

I dont use maximum output on my lights.. I try to choose lights that are bright enough on Medium, which is more sustainable than maximum, and lasts much longer..

imo, it is not practical to plan on using H1 as a constant output.

In all cases, when using LiIon, checking battery voltage is essential, so you know when to recharge.

Have you considered one of the 18650 headlamps instead? They have LVP, they have 3x higher output on Medium, and the battery capacity is 3x greater than the little AA models..

 

[n2mb_racing]

I dont use maximum output on my lights.. I try to choose lights that are bright enough on Medium, which is more sustainable than maximum, and lasts much longer..

imo, it is not practical to plan on using H1 as a constant output.

In all cases, when using LiIon, checking battery voltage is essential, so you know when to recharge.

Have you considered one of the 18650 headlamps instead? They have LVP, they have 3x higher output on Medium, and the battery capacity is 3x greater than the little AA models..

Yup. I have a Fenix hm65r-t which is great, but heavy. I like the lightweight Zebra light h52. My night runs are rarely longer than 1 hour.

 

[jon_slider]

update, further testing of LVP of the 53 series suggests that

10A batteries will turn off around 3V, whereas

3A battery will overdischarge.. more details here: