ROAR of the Pelican (CR123 Explosion during use, firsthand account)

bwaites said:

...I will see if Scott still has those posts, (he seems to keep everything he ever wrote backed up!) and I can maybe post them in a new thread about cells in the battery section.Bill

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Bill,

If you do this would you please provide a link in this thread?

Thanks,
Brightnorm

I've asked him about them, I'm sure he'll get back to me tonite, as he had some family obligations today.

I will either post them here, or if they are long, I'll post in a new thread with a link.

Bill

Thanks.

BTW, I've just seen evidence that the ZTS tester needs to have 10% increments or smaller to give an accurate picture of remaining battery capacity (assuming this kind of testing is valid).

After doing a SPY005 run test the light still maintained a regulated "level 3" but the ZTS tester registered ZERO. I put the batteries back in the light and was again able to activate and sustain level three. I'm no longer confident in the ZTS' ability to give an accurate reading. What is our next step?

Brightnorm

just for the hell of it today i took 2 titanium cr123 that were mostly discharged out on the dock at the store.
set my variac up to run a hamburger cooker at 150 f
figured thats about where most folks go ow thats hot.
heated the cells 10 minutes then hit the crimp area with a punch and hammer.
in about 4 minutes i got a venting with flame result.will repeat later with the minidv rolling and the ir thermometer handy.
was kinda neat to watch the cells spew flaming chunks of lithium that left white marks on the concrete where they landed.

I don't (and haven't) thought the ZTS is THE answer. It's a piece, but my real belief is that this is a combination of multiple issues. SPY005 level 3 isn't that much draw. I can believe a cell reading zero would still run it.

I think the ZTS is capable of giving us a reasonably cost effective way to get BASIC ideas about cells, but probably isn't as accurate as flash amping. However, it is safer, and a general guide to status. After a cell has been used, it shouldn't be used with another new cell, that's pretty basic.

It also allows us a basic guideline for out of the box cells. It at least tells us they are in some way different, and shouldn't be used together.

If all the cells you test are new, it gives a basic idea of their status. If they don't test the same, don't use them together.

My current belief is this:

You start with a damaged/partially discharged cell AND a good cell AND a draw sufficient to slowly heat the damaged cell up. (If there is too much draw, it simply kills the cell and/or trips the safety) AND you use the light for long enough to get it all hot, AND the light has to be sealed AND the environmental conditions have to be right. (There may be other factors too, but I'm pretty tired right now!)

I am believing more and more that it is a multitude of factors, not a single issue.

It may just be that the PM6 has enough of those factors, especially the current needs of the lamp, perhaps compounded by the tight springs, that it IS more likely than most to create those conditions.

Bill

snakebite said:

just for the hell of it today i took 2 titanium cr123 that were mostly discharged out on the dock at the store.
set my variac up to run a hamburger cooker at 150 f
figured thats about where most folks go ow thats hot.
heated the cells 10 minutes then hit the crimp area with a punch and hammer.
in about 4 minutes i got a venting with flame result.will repeat later with the minidv rolling and the ir thermometer handy.
was kinda neat to watch the cells spew flaming chunks of lithium that left white marks on the concrete where they landed.

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Man, I am really concerned that someone else is going to get hurt by all of these "tests". The delayed onset of LM's symptoms show how serious exposure to the components of CR123A batteries can be.

PLEASE BE CAREFUL!!!!!!

Just for giggles I ran a set dead in the Hellfire that was a 10% and 100% mix. Nothing special happened. After the light went out and cooled, I dumped out the batteries. An hour later, I took the front one and ZTS tested it and it read but did not light anything. It ran the test LEDs back and forth but lit nothing on settling. I put it in my Surefire L1 and had cats eye green glow on low and decent light on high. The darn thing still had juice in it AFTER being "reverse charged"? I am very puzzled by this.

Holy $hit-I did'nt even know that could happen! Violent....

{Edit: I was responding to Brightnorms post when I wrote this - hadn't realised so much had happened in the meantime!}


I don't feel qualified to answer a question like "what is our next step" in terms of trying to match or assess cells, but I'll happily post my recent findings.

I've just been doing some experimenting which, among other things, has involved making flash-amp measurements at various stages as batteries are depleted.

I don't think I'll have completed all the things I want to do until tomorrow or maybe even until after the weekend, but here are some interim results that relate to flash-amp readings, taken from batteries running a P60 lamp:

Fresh: Approx 6.6A
After 20 mins: Approx 5.6A
After 40 mins: Approx 5.2A
After 60 mins: Approx 4.4A

And for a P61 lamp (which I think induced thermal shutdown in the cells, but anyway):
Fresh: 6.6A
After 12 mins, and cooling: 5.7A

Comments:
(1) Nice spread of results, i.e. there is a good distinction between one reading and the next as the battery depletes, which, as mdocod has pointed out so well, is a good thing.

(2) Taking a flash amp measurement does not seem to appreciably shorten battery life or damage batteries (this was a concern of mine). The P60 in G2 was still blindingly bright after three 20-minute runs and 2 flash amp measurements on both batteries. Since the runtime is given as about 1 hour, and it was still going strong after this, I'm happy with that aspect. Also, the needle on my ammeter is slow to move, so I would think that if anyone is going to damage their batteries, I would. It probably took about 3 seconds to make a reading.

(3) As Milkyspit points out in the thread that I linked to a few posts ago, it would seem that one ammeter will give quite different results to another. I was concerned that my ammeter only goes up to 10A DC, and mdocod's results occasionally reached around 11A. Fortunately, for me, my top reading was no more than 7A for fresh cells - so it does seem important to stick to one ammeter if you want to compare cells.

I'd avoided using the flash amp method in the past, but after a few hours of experimenting and getting confident with it while doing some tests, it's "grown on me", to say the least.

I have just had an unusual experience which has produced an awful smell (I'm still referring to flashlights and batteries, btw), but I have no reason to suspect it was as a result of damage caused when shorting the cells to read the current. Rather, I think it was just because something got too hot - the batteries seem to have survived well, both physically and in terms of output.

snakebite said:

just for the hell of it today i took 2 titanium cr123 that were mostly discharged out on the dock at the store.
set my variac up to run a hamburger cooker at 150 f
figured thats about where most folks go ow thats hot.
heated the cells 10 minutes then hit the crimp area with a punch and hammer.
in about 4 minutes i got a venting with flame result.will repeat later with the minidv rolling and the ir thermometer handy.
was kinda neat to watch the cells spew flaming chunks of lithium that left white marks on the concrete where they landed.

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Thank you. I wish I was brave enough to do something like that myself.

If Keving gets similar results on Saturday, by preheating batteries and then crushing and/or mis-matching them, then we could well be on to something. The next step would be to see if there is indeed something about the original PM6 that allows batteries to get hotter than the average flashlight, but that would be very much jumping the gun at the moment.

Just curious, does anyone know how LM is doing? He hasn't posted here for awhile.

Lightmeup said:

Just curious, does anyone know how LM is doing? He hasn't posted here for awhile.

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Is it just me, or has everyone else been thinking that but too afraid to mention it?

Anyway, in an earlier post, InFlux said that he had his phone number - possibly worth PMing InFlux if LM doesn't respond to PM.

Like I said, reasonable pre-cautions SEEM to be safe. I'd be WAY WAY careful if my early PM6 was stock. But with a cut down LM spring and a kinder softer Kroll spring, I ain't skeered!

I learned early on about flash amping and I ain't skeered of that either.

Still

When you say it registered zero, do you mean it didn't even "run" the LEDs? Technically that means that it's less than 1%, but not necessarily "dead".

brightnorm said:

BTW, I've just seen evidence that the ZTS tester needs to have 10% increments or smaller to give an accurate picture of remaining battery capacity (assuming this kind of testing is valid). After doing a SPY005 run test the light still maintained a regulated "level 3" but the ZTS tester registered ZERO. I put the batteries back in the light and was again able to activate and sustain level three.

Click to expand...

I just spent an hour+ on the phone with Lunar and he is doing great. Back to normal he says. He will catch up later.

Archangel said:

When you say it registered zero, do you mean it didn't even "run" the LEDs? Technically that means that it's less than 1%, but not necessarily "dead".

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As best I remember it didn't run the LEDS, but even if it did it ended up with all LEDs dark.

BN

Oh crap, I've got over 50 of those batteries here!

chiphead

Glad your ok LunerModule.

I had the same thing happen to my pm6 (minus the blood) but with new surefire batteries, and after repeated unanswered emails to pelican I said the hell with them and I'll never purchase anything made by pelican again.

O H M Y G O D....
I've got about 15 of the Battery Station 123's sitting in a drawer right now. The reason this freaks me out is this : About a month ago I had these batteries in a sealed plastic container. I opened the container to take out a couple and there was a V E R Y strong metallic/acidic smell coming from the batteries! I left the top of after that and the smell is still there but much fainter. I'm VERY tempted to throw these batteries in the garbage after reading that. What if both of those batteries had exploded at once while that light was still in his hand ?!

Presidio said:

Glad your ok LunerModule.

I had the same thing happen to my pm6 (minus the blood) but with new surefire batteries, and after repeated unanswered emails to pelican I said the hell with them and I'll never purchase anything made by pelican again.

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So maybe this is just a Pelican problem? If I remember correctly the last post where this happened (inside a wooden cabinet) involved a pelican light. hmmm...
And the fact that they are not even answering your emails make me even more paranoid about them. They could at least shoot of a quick "@!$# you! Our lights are fine the problem is elsewhere! Now leave us ALONE!"