ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 Head!

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 H

Hello Chronos

I'm happy to hear, you and your family is ok.
I'm sad about what happens.

Good points stated here. Specially I like what McGizmo said. This could be a reason for the accident.

Best regards

____
Tom

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 H

Glad your ok!!!! I would agree not to touch the light without propper saftey gear.
Im done with Cr123 cells too. I had one super heat itself inside my HD45, Im going to use Li-ion from now on. The wrapper actually shrunk itself from the heat. Guess what brand i was using:


They were brand new out of the shrink wrap and just a few min on time. I still havent figured out how this happend but the one battery was VERY HOT. I thought something short circuted to the body, but its not the case after viewing the cells. Still a mystery!

Let me know if you get any response from amondotech!

My thread with CR123 problems

good luck with getting your light back to normal,
-bobby

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 H

Thanks Long John,

I agree that McGizmo's thoughts are interesting and as likely as anything right now, maybe more so. Great deduction at work.

I opened the light and took a few pics with my camera phone. It looks like the cell nearest the head vented as it is black and smelly, as is the end of the KL3 head. It also isn't nearly as black. I washed my hands thoroughly after handling the light. I'll use latex gloves next time I open it.

Interestingly the last cell's base almost looks somewhat deformed, as if there was force in the head of the light and the cells were pushed hard backwards against the spring in the tailcap. Or was the tailcap's spring too tightly sprung, compressing tightly against the last cell's base, initiating the failure? I didn't notice that it took any undue pressure to engage the light yesterday morning. It does look like there was a lot of pressure in the light; I wonder if the tailcap didn't expel the gases if it could have done a good imitation of a frag grenade or IED?

I'll post pics once I take the family out for breakfast. By the way, it is another perfect day at the DE shore! However, I will not be taking any 123 lights with us in the car.

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 H

nakahoshi,

WOW! I did run the light the night before for about 5 mins total, a few short bursts and a couple of longer bursts. I wonder if that was enough to heat up one of the cells (perhaps the one nearest the head) causing the casing to weaken; then the heat of the car caused the casing to contract more, starting a chain event? This is absolutely wild and frightening stuff. I think I'll swear off primaries and move onto protected lithium ions. Sigh. The issue I will have is my Gladius, as it will run on a 17670 but will blink every 15 seconds or so.

OK, I did run the light for a few seconds in the morning to make sure the cells were fine. I wonder if I started the chain reaction then? I turned it on, blinded myself, turned it off and put it in the console. Hmmm.

I used to have some AW cells. Are these high enough quality?

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 H

McGizmo said:

If a light is sealed like I assume this one is, a pressure differential between the inside and outside will be equalized by the system if possible. In the case of a light with a rubber boot, the boot will expand or collapse to equalize any pressure differential. If the light had been opened in a warmer or higher pressure atmosphere than that which it was left in in the car, the rubber boot might have collapsed some to equalize the pressure. If the clickie has a very soft momentary activation as many do, this equalization could well have activated the light in your absense. This could explain a flow of electricity but of course does not explain why an event took place.

Click to expand...

To complete these thesis:

This could be the initial ignition to suck the batteries completly empty, the batteries gots hotter and starts to vent out gas. Then the inside pressure changed and expanded and as the result - the accident.

Best regards

____
Tom

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 Head!

How much pressure does the spring exert on the cells when the tailcap is installed? I was going through my lights a few weeks ago when I picked up my Mag-C. It had what was a popular and cheap mod about 2 1/2 years ago: Using tubing to make up the diameter difference, install three CR123's and use them to power a PR118 or similar incandesant bulb. It threw out a lot of lumens for the money.

The cells were dead, but more importantly, they were all heavily distorted in the base, crushed in by the excessive force of the Mag's tail spring. Nothing bad happened, but I make it a point now when modding a light to try to have no more spring pressure than needed for a reliable contact. The case of a CR123 has far less sturctural integrity than a C-cell.

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 Head!

Hello Chronos,

It is good to hear that there were no injuries from this incident. I would suggest that if you happen to be driving in the car when something like this happens, it would be prudent to immediately open all of the windows to dilute and exhaust any harmful chemical gasses.

Newbie and Toppers efforts have shown that when you take a cell, drain it somewhat and couple it with a new cell, drain it at close to a 1C current draw, leave the circuit connected after the lamp has gone out, and add just the right amount of heat, you can cause a rapid vent with flame incident.

Others have shown that if you pair up a dead cell with a new cell, nothing happens.

As far as I know, no one has been able to produce a rapid vent with flame incident with two new cells that test differently on the ZTS tester. I believe this may be on Newbie's agenda for further testing, but am not sure.

I would like to pause a moment and thank everyone that has been doing testing on the various combinations that cause problems, and especially to Newbie for demonstrating a repeatable condition.

It is my humble opinion (and guess ) that we are dealing with a boundary condition. I have tested cells at a variety of current rates and have noticed that somewhere around 1C they tend to get hotter than at higher or lower current rates.

We need heat to activate the chemical reaction. If we have too much heat, the PTC will shut things down, but if we have enough heat just below the PTC threshold, we may be able to initiate the thermal run away before the PTC can trip.

Cells are tested to a variety of "worst case" conditions. I am not aware of any "boundary condition" testing. Clamp a cell in a vice and direct short it and the protection circuits kick in and shut down the chemical reaction. However, taking a cell that is designed for pulse loads (cameras) and subject it to constant loads (flashlight) and you can possibly end up with different concerns and safety issues.

Let's take a look at the recipe for rapid venting with flame.

More than 1 cell.
Cells at differing capacities.
Enough heat to start the chemical reaction toward thermal run away, but not enough heat to trip the PTC.
Current draw in the 1C range. (This may be optional, but you need some current to initiate the chemical reaction. Simply storing cells connect in series at high temperatures does not seem to cause problems.)
A circuit.
A lack of a low voltage cut off. By keeping the circuit connected after one cell is depleted, we give the other cell the opportunity to try to charge the depleted cell.

Looking at your case, we have heat, the possibility that the cells were not matched, a reasonable possible current draw, and no low voltage cut off. The only thing we are missing is the completed circuit. It could be that there was a malfunction with the switch that left it connected...

Tom

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 H

Either electricity was flowing in some type of circuit, designed or inadvertant (a short for instance) or it wasn't, as part of the chain in this event. For a reverse charging case, there would have been some electrical path provided I would expect. Nakohshi's experience is an anomoly to my limited grasp of what is going on as it seems that a chemical reaction might have been initiated with the flow of electricity but that it may well have self sustained and continued after the circuit had been opened (turned off). Is it possible that something similar happened here?

I have tread lightly on wild speculation because wild speculation can gain momentum and gain credibility even if it is false. By the same token, granting all CR123 batteries, regardless of manufacture, the same level of consistancy, quality of assembly and inherent and effective protective or safety mechanisisms may be putting a blind eye to the actual source of the problem.

Some of you may recall a certain Ford Pinto that had a propencity of having its gas tank explode in a moderate rear end collision. The source of the explosion was of course the gas tank. One could conclude that a car with a gas tank was unsafe. Have people stopped using cars with gas tanks? Do auto accidents have exploding gas tanks as part of the damage in any significant numbers these days?

Ok, I'll go out on a limb here and qualify this as speculation. I think some of these events which certainly seem to be in greater frequency these days, significant frequency, may be due to the battery itself and its method of construction, inconsistancy in onboard safety mechanisisms and due to possibly inadequate QC. I believe it is possible to build an unsafe CR123 battery. I further suspect that this may be the case in a limited number and quite likely manufacturer specific.

I am not ready to stop driving my car because some Pintos used to blow up after being rear ended. Every time I drive, I am at risk and it is very important for me to keep this in mind. It is a calculated risk and I can not calculate in the unexpected or behavior of my fellow motorist. I would like to think I reduce my risk by driving a safe and well maintained vehicle and by driving defensively and safely; or so I believe.

As Newbie has shown us, the CR123 battery is a small, energy dense. storage devise and an unwanted or unplaned event where this energy is released rapidly in an uncontrolled, not by design fashion, can have destructive and harmful results. By design, Newbie has initiated such events. There seems to be a case where the response of the batteries is not consistant or at the same level of magnitude and this difference is based on brand of battery and not model of battery. What Newbie has undertaken on his own, at his home and on his dime is something we would like to think the batery manufacturers have been doing at a much more scientific and controlled level all along. Have they? Are all manufacturers as conscientious about the quality and conformance to standards in manufacturing as well as final product? I am starting to develop a brand prejudice based on reported events. This may be based on false perceptions and I may be fooling myself on potential risks. I am aware of no evidence or reports that make me feel that in a single CR123 application that this prejudice need apply but in multi cell systems, it does.

Prior to recent events showing up in significant numbers, I was of the impression that the greatest risk potential was with the Li-Ion platform and more specifically in the realm of charging these cells as well as ganging them in series. I would not have predicted that folks would move from lithium primaries to Li-Ion as a safer haven of lower risk. Regardless of chemistry, it is clear that all of these batteries need to be well designed, well built and the design needs to include reasonable and dependable fail safes because in the real world, sh$t does happen!!

I leave you with three questions that it would be great to have professional and knowledgeable answers to:

1) Is it possible to build a reasonably safe CR123 battery for use in flashlights?

2) Is it possible to build an inherently unsafe or high risk CR123 battery for use in flashlights.

3) If the answer to 1) and 2) is yes for both, is it possible to identify and control the critical aspects which differentiate 1) from 2) so that 1) is the result?

At this point, my guess is that the answer to all three questions is yes but it is only a guess and there may be some significant qualifications to a yes answer that would be real nice to know and understand!!

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 H

I'd just like to note that any benefits of "matched cells" is lost by breaking one of the matched pairs in half and adding them to another matched pair to create a triplet of cells. If Amondotech's "matched cells" are paired and tripled as they claim (based on battery capacity), then any safety benefit gained by that was lost in this case.

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 Head!

Does anybody know of any cases of cells rupturing on their own while not in a light? Or basically spontaniously combusting while sitting on a shelf or whatever?

I have cells in battery carriers in the glove box of both vehicles and I'm really starting to worry. Especially with the extreme hot and cold temperatures where I live.

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 H

Let me ask this...

Do you just "know" the cells were fresh, or did you test them using a Multimeter to see if they were all pretty similar?

Voltage doesn't tell the whole story either! Flash Amps is what I go by.

I don't have a lot of three cell lights. Only a "modded" Brinkmann Maxfire Rechargable with 3x123 and a Space Needle II. But I have LOTS of 2 cell lights, and have matched and numbered sets for this purpose.

I STILL believe that with REASONABLE precaution, we are safe enough using primary Liths.

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 H

I don't own a multimeter and wouldn't know what to do with one if I did.

Yes, these were 2x123 matched sticks from Amondotech. It is frightening to anyone not an electrical engineer (read: consumer) that there may be so much variation cell-to-cell, not even batch-to-batch, that they are liable to vent potentially lethal gases and fire if used in a very expensive and assumed safe flashlight. Yes, I broke one of the sticks but it was from the same batch. I mark every other batch, and have only purchased two batches from Amondotech. This, the second batch, were kept in a clear plastic tackle box in a .30 cal ammo can in my closet. The other batch (I only have two left) is kept in an otter case in the same ammo can and solely use in my Gladius.

I know this is all conjecture, but it almost sounds like we need to purchase and learn to utililze multimeters if we are to enjoy the hobby of flashlights. Yikes. When I spend my money on cells, I expect they are sold with SOME level of QE testing and that they all fall within some safe parameters. No, every cell won't be perfect, but with such a powerful energy source they should not be released to the public unless they meet some minimum criteria...

I've got a few minutes so I'll try to load a few pics.

EDIT: Is reasonable safety to include us testing every cell or cell stick? If so someone needs to provide this information to the general public and perhaps include one with every high-dollar flashlight sale. I'm not dodging my responsibilities; rather, I believe I've acted in an adult and responsible manner. My issue is with what may be a general lack of QE and if it is our responsibility to police the industry.

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 H

It seems as if it would be prudent to own a ZTS nowadays, as to minimalize the risks... What do people think of the Mini-MBT? http://www.ztsinc.com/minimbt.html

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 H

Here are a few pics:

The KL3 head:


Inside the top of the flashlight body:

The inside of the tailcap:

The inside of the bottom of the flashlight body(nearest the tailcap):

The tailcap where the rubber cap came off(can see where black gas evacuated):

The flashlight removed from the ziplock(no external clues as to damage):

The clouded lens of the Chop-modded 1st-gen KL3:

The rubber tailcap:

In the armrest compartment we inadvertently left a white milk bottle plastic top alongside the lights. One of the caps has several black specs of dust on the inside; I threw it out in case the dust was dangerous. I won't open that armrest again.

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 H

carrot said:

It seems as if it would be prudent to own a ZTS nowadays, as to minimalize the risks... What do people think of the Mini-MBT? http://www.ztsinc.com/minimbt.html

Click to expand...

Feedback would be appreciated! This is probably my next purchase alongside a set of protected rechargeable cells.

I can't imagine me taking one of these lights with me later this summer on the Appalachian trail. I'd need to take a ZTS tester along to determine the cells hadn't degraded in the heat of my backpack prior to installing them, potentially in an emergency situation... What if I leave the light in a side mesh pocket exposed to direct sunlight while I walk along the summit?

Bigger question: our troops are using multiple 123 lights in combat in Iraq and Afghanistan. I have to believe the environment there is far more hostile, with high heat, lots of rough handling, and lack of time to test each cell prior to installing them in the field. What is the failure rate there? What is the potential impact of a failure in the field in a combat situation?

Sorry if I'm rambling. I guess I need to relax and let this one pass. It just bothers me that I did take precautions and didn't mix old-and-new cells. I used cells from the same order. I didn't leave it in direct sunlight. I didn't manhandle the light. I didn't leave the light on. Yet it could have fragged the interior of my car...

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 Head!

Well, on McGizmo's note...

We have seen problems with cells.

Which brands have had issues?

We have seen one set of SureFires explode and with their internals. I have also had one, in a set of two do a minor vent, during testing. I may not have hit the optimal conditions to find the scenario to make it repeatable. This takes alot of time and Lithium cells don't grow on trees. These are internally, identical to Panasonic, Energizer, Browning, Streamlight cells- all of which are USA made and state so on the package.

We have seen a few BS cell failures on cpf. I've caused a very high percentage of them to fail, under a certain set of conditions and test scenario, trying to replicate the failures.

We have seen the Cyclops cells fail.

We have now seen AmondoTech Titanium cells fail.

I know there have been more brands which have shown failures, but I can't recall them all.

For anyone who'd like to find out a little more, especially some things you can do to reduce the likelyhood of a problem, I'd encourage them to read this thread:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=124776&page=1&pp=40

Meanwhile, I'm still working on building test equipment to log information, to see what else we can glean out of things.

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 H

L6 is one of the few lights I still run with primary lithium cells. will only use surefire cells measured with ZTS before inserting.

already had a close call, when clickie accidently came on in my backpack. L6 got almost too hot to hold. was lucky I discovered light was on. L6 was loaded with surefire cells that measured 100% w/ZTS.

took off clickie, switched to LOTC immediately. twisties tailcaps are almost impossible to accidently switch on.

if you go with a high quality surefire cell (reliable PTC), measure cells with ZTS (cells balanced), then switch to LOTC (hard to accidently leave on).

these actions reduces risk factors identified so far....

surefire cells are far from perfect, but at this point. I trust surefire cells more than others...

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 H

I decided to disassemble the light. The cell at the top of the light (behind the LED head) is the one that ignited. The plastic wrapper on the 2x123 stick is melted and deformed, but the cells appear to be intact. The single cell is melted and appears to have exploded and ignited (pics below). I was able to carefully cleanse the M2 body and detonator; the residue washed out easily (some melted plastic remained behind but I was able to pursuade it to move on) so those parts can be salvaged. I don't know about the head; with the heat and fumes it must be ruined. The tailcap is shot too. So far I'm out a custom-modded Chop KL3 and a G&P tailcap. Grrrrr.

The cells, detritus, and tailcap are now secured in a ziplock baggie in my ammo can. If anyone wants to anaylze them please let me know (hint, hint Amondotech...)

Grrr.

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 H

I'm glad everybody is OK.

Have there been any similar incidents with AA or AAA lithium batteries?

--Walter

Re: ARGH: Accident w/Amondotech 123s and SF M2 + Detonator + G&P Tailcap + Chop KL3 H

AA and AAA lithium are a different chemistry than CR123A lithium, so they shouldn't be discussed in this thread. But yes, apparently there has been.