EV and Alt Fuel Vehicles, part 10

Darell

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LukeA

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I really applaud that Tesla sedan. The market has been there, but no products have been in it for a few years.

I don't really support the Volt concept for one reason: it still directly combusts fuel. I don't think that it's a viable long term alternative to an ICE vehicle.
 

Screehopper

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I really applaud that Tesla sedan. The market has been there, but no products have been in it for a few years.

To be more precise, the Tesla is not a sedan, but a roadster since it's a two-door convertible sports car. Instead of the traditional "boring" looking electric or hybrid cars, Tesla took the leap to make a EV sports car which will be more appealing.

I saw the Tesla in person when it was being shown in Los Angeles. Pretty neat car, despite the price. But I like what the CEO said, the majority of the money will be put back into R&D to build the next generation model which they hope will come at a lower price range.
 

Qoose

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Man I want a Tesla Roadster. Or $150K to get one.

However, word is they are developing a sedan version, with more seats and an affordable price tag. Using the Roadster to bring income to pump into their R&D was a good move though.

Actually, I kinda want a sedan, but with Roadster performance. I like to carry some stuff with me, and a golf bag sized trunk doesn't cut it.
 

gadget_lover

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Is it just a coincidence that the 'cpf classifieds' banner for this thread (ev rules) matches the one at about hybrids at http://www.tanj.com/isaac/ ?

tanjstar.jpg


:)

Any new news on new EV's or PHEVs using the new A123 batteries?

Daniel
 

ikendu

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Sheesh! I guess I need to stop by here a little more often.

I've totally missed this commercial. I sure hope it means they are serious about the car this time. I was on a panel to judge a renewable transportation competition with a lady from GM. I asked her what she knew about. According to her, GM IS totally serious about the Volt. I guess we'll see.

It doesn't bother me that the Volt still combusts fuel. I think Americans are not ready to buy a pure electric vehicle. It is too scary to them that the range is "limited". I think after PHEVs have gained market acceptance, you will start to see a viable market for EVs.

Just my theory.
 

Darell

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Hey guys -

I just got to play with a Vectrix "maxi-scooter" last weekend. My page on it here. Even includes a short video of relatively low-speed riding.
http://evnut.com/vectrix.htm

And here is where the rumor mill is headed. This Vectrix superbike is expected to debut in Milan next month:
vectrixsuperbike.jpg
 

Darell

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Considering the low-volume, ground-up uniqueness of the bike, I think the price is a bargain. Yes, compared to the cheap little gas scooters, this is expensive... but man - you can't put a price on the liquid performance and zero maintenance. I imagine the sport bike will be a bit more. ;)
 

jtr1962

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Are there any licensing/insurance requirements? Besides the purchase price, that might be a show stopper for some potential buyers (i.e. bicyclists seeking an alternative). For me personally, if I needed a vehicle like this (which I currently don't), I might bite if the purchase price were $5000 or less, AND the licensing/insurance requirements were the same as my bike (i.e. none). I just don't want to jump through the twin hoops of getting a license and paying for insurance. I'm sure as an experienced cyclist I could ride this thing just fine after a short adjustment period. It sounds very intuitive. Yes, I would wear a helmet even though I don't wear one when cycling. A lot more potential to get hurt with a top speed of 62 mph.
 

jtr1962

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It is a motor vehicle like any other, and requires a license and insurance.
:(. Oh well. I had been hoping that since it was small, zero emissions, and only had a top speed of 62 mph, it might have slipped in under some alternative vehicle incentive law. I guess I'll just stick to my bike, perhaps buy something like this should I need more speed.
 

Orion

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I haven't followed the other parts, but do have to say that most people will tend to not go for a pure electric vehicle because of range. Also, you kinda have to have a place to plug them in. For me, in an apartment, I have no way TO plug it in to charge it. When I do, . . . .and they come up with a 300 mile range per charge, these things will be very much considered. The only downfall would be if you wanted to take a trip. Unless there were some fast chargers that you could "fill up" at, these would only be commuter/in town units.

As for Hybrids, they are my only choice, at the moment, for a limited fossil fuel car. I really like the Altima Hybrid, but they are very limited as to where you can buy them or have them worked on. The reason why I like the idea of the Altima Hybrid is for it's power, as in, when you step on the throttle. I've thought about the Civic Hybrid, but would really hate not having much horsepower. I hope that Nissan USA will start producing more of the Altima Hybrids, and in the two door coupe as well.
 

Darell

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I haven't followed the other parts, but do have to say that most people will tend to not go for a pure electric vehicle because of range. Also, you kinda have to have a place to plug them in. For me, in an apartment, I have no way TO plug it in to charge it. When I do, . . . .and they come up with a 300 mile range per charge, these things will be very much considered. The only downfall would be if you wanted to take a trip. Unless there were some fast chargers that you could "fill up" at, these would only be commuter/in town units.
Ah... Very timely to have come by since I spent some time over the weekend compiling many of the reasons I've heard as to why EVs won't work.

http://evnut.com/evs_bad.htm

Have a look and see if these look familiar:
#8
#32
#12

And there you'll find many, many more reasons to consider why EVs won't work for you or "most people."

Now we should probably take a moment and discuss the challenges we face in driving gasoline cars. Or, on a more positive note - we should discuss how electric transportation CAN work for many people. If you want the responses to your specific concerns, I'm happy to take a stab at those as well. They've all been answered (literally) hundreds of times.

As for Hybrids, they are my only choice, at the moment, for a limited fossil fuel car.
Unfortunately, they represent the only choice for just about everybody at this time. :( And that's the main reason that I do what I do.
 

Orion

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Ah... Very timely to have come by since I spent some time over the weekend compiling many of the reasons I've heard as to why EVs won't work.

http://evnut.com/evs_bad.htm

Have a look and see if these look familiar:
#8
#32
#12

And there you'll find many, many more reasons to consider why EVs won't work for you or "most people."

Now we should probably take a moment and discuss the challenges we face in driving gasoline cars. Or, on a more positive note - we should discuss how electric transportation CAN work for many people. If you want the responses to your specific concerns, I'm happy to take a stab at those as well. They've all been answered (literally) hundreds of times.


Unfortunately, they represent the only choice for just about everybody at this time. :( And that's the main reason that I do what I do.


That was a very long list of arguments. Didn't realize there were so many of them. But we can discuss the few that I brought up if you'd like.

First, I have nothing against BEVs. I would love to own one!

1. Is there a way for an apartment dwelling person to own a BEV?

2. In most driving situations, people stay around the town they live in. What is the way a BEV would work when you went out of town? Such as, if you wanted to tour the Grand Canyon and/or Yellowstone?

Thanks!
 

Darell

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That was a very long list of arguments. Didn't realize there were so many of them.
Oh yeah... Lots to hate. :)

But we can discuss the few that I brought up if you'd like.

1. Is there a way for an apartment dwelling person to own a BEV?

2. In most driving situations, people stay around the town they live in. What is the way a BEV would work when you went out of town? Such as, if you wanted to tour the Grand Canyon and/or Yellowstone?

Thanks!
Unless somebody beats me to it, I absolutely will get back to these. Gotta get some things done first though!
 

Darell

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OK, I'll give it a quick stab, though I'm sure this was covered back in version four of this thread. ;)

I'll start with this: Many of these reasons/concerns on my lengthy list are "true." Please also note that "truth" isn't always what it is cracked up to be. For example, it is true that EVs don't fit everybody's needs. But this misses the point that NO vehicle fits everybody's needs... so what is so important about this truth in this context? With that said, let's move right along.

EVs can't drive across the country easily.

Quite true. EVs are not the best choice for a cross-country vehicle. It turns out that very few people drive across the country on a regular basis. A few do it every now and again, and an impossibly small percentage of drivers do it with some frequency. While modern EVs can have ranges of 250-300 miles, and fast-charging has been commercialized for many years, driving thousands of miles a day in an EV will not be convenient any time soon. This is a case of "the right tool for the job." For example, I also would not choose to ride a 250cc motorcycle across the country - but I still see the value in having these small bikes available. EVs excel at what most American drivers use their cars for: commuting. And since millions of American households have more than one car, some will choose to keep a liquid-fueled car for the long trips. Others can rent or borrow a vehicle for the task, or fly or take the train, etc. We can no longer afford to scale our transportation for the 1% of drivers. We need to solve this thing for the "low hanging fruit" - the vast majority of drivers who can easily replace a gas car with an EV. (As always, an EV won't work for everybody in all situations. We need to have them available for those who CAN use them, and wish to use them in place of a gas car)

I live in an apartment/I have no garage, so an EV will never work for me.

You already know what I'm going to say here, right? That there are millions of drivers who live in single homes with garages... and those are the ones to conctrate on! Well, that's part of it, certainly. But there's more: Along side the rollout of EVs, it could be required for apartment owners to offer charging for tenants. Or it coule be a huge incentive for them to do so. Apartment dwellers could and should also have the option of charging at their place of employment. Gasoline cars managed to take over the world - and when they were introduced there were NO gasoline stations. Being a nation of smart people, we figured out how to make it work... because we wanted to. We can have charging along residential roads easy enough. Solving this problem is NOT rocket science! It will just take time, money and effort - like everything that is worth doing.

EVs don't have the same range as gasoline vehicles.

In many cases this is true. And it other cases, an EV has greater range than some gas cars. And it turns out that EVs don't even need that same range for 90% of our driving tasks. The range of gas cars is not needed for the vast majority of vehicle trips. We can do 300 mile range EVs today. We can and we have. We could do 500 miles. But then the question is "why?" That's a big waste of energy, weight, and expense to haul around that much "range" when it will be so rarely needed. Way better than having a huge battery range, is a quicker, convenient way to refuel. Then, the few times that you DO venture beyond your normal driving radius, you can cheaply extend your range, and not have to pay for that extra range the other 99% of the time when you don't need it. Putting fast chargers every ten miles on the interstates would be cheaper than even the most conservative cost estimates for the "hydrogen highway" that is being pushed so hard.


Summary: In order for EVs to be everything we want them to be, we need to promote their use, and some early adopters need to buy and use them. They can't get to where we want them to be in one giant leap. It will take some generations... all the more reason that we need to start yesterday. There is no "perfect" car of any description. Some people can't use a truck. Some people can't use a sedan. Some people can't use a motorcycle. But they're all available for those who CAN use them. All I'm asking is for the same thing with EVs. They need to be available for the people who CAN use them today. For most of our driving tasks, EVs are simply superior to a gasoline vehicle. Almost zero maintenance. Cheap fuel. Clean. Powerful. Quiet. No visits to the gas station.
 
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