Smallest Aspheric LED combo?

Mattaus

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Mar 29, 2011
Messages
1,765
Location
Brisbane, Australia
Hi all,

I have done a fair bit of looking over the last few days, so if this information already exists I apologize as I have genuinely missed it :ohgeez:

Anyway, as the title suggests I am on the lookout for the smallest possible aspheric + led combo. I have ordered 2 of these 13mm aspherics and an XP-E2 to experiment with. I'm not holing out much hope for this combo working very well, but it's worth a try.

Does anyone know of some decently small and reasonably well performing combinations? I don't have a target size, but less than 20mm in diameter is ideal.

Thanks,

- Matt
 

archimedes

Flashaholic
Joined
Nov 12, 2010
Messages
15,780
Location
CONUS, top left
Please post your experiences here, once you get those lenses ....

I am working on a similar project, and any relevant info would be much appreciated.

If they do work well, I would be interested in buying a couple of them, if someone happened to order a few extra ... :)
 
Last edited:

Mattaus

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Mar 29, 2011
Messages
1,765
Location
Brisbane, Australia
Thanks for the PM Jalal20. I tried replying but your inbox is full. And will do Archimedes. I think the biggest problem will be capturing enough light with such a small lens. I'm not after stupid throw - just something tighter and with more lux than a reflector + LED combo can deliver.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 4
 

Mattaus

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Mar 29, 2011
Messages
1,765
Location
Brisbane, Australia
I've done a little bit research and read through the DEFT.X threads. I can't see why the collar would not help out, though I am dubious in regards to the 80% claim. If space is a concern (as it is in my application) then I can't see me easily fitting even the smallest collar inside a light housing as small as I want. The smallest RLT collar Wavien sell has a 32mm outer diameter. I may as well use a large (30mm+) aspheric lens as well.

It's probably not this simple (in fact it won't be) but the collars just look like inverted reflectors to me. Might have to muck around with some reflectors I have here. See if I can get any improvements and make a super micro thrower lol.
 

AmperSand

Enlightened
Joined
Aug 31, 2009
Messages
223
Location
Brisbane, Australia
I've wanted to do this to a sunwayman d40a for a while. Xpg2 dedome on copper with direct thermal path. Dont think a waiven collar will fit however, the ID seems a little to narrow inside. There is a nice shelf inside that would make a perfect fit for an aspheric.
Unsure if that is _compact_ enough tho.
 

AmperSand

Enlightened
Joined
Aug 31, 2009
Messages
223
Location
Brisbane, Australia
Quick mock up of what I mean.

3uza4y9a.jpg

8y7evyty.jpg

y9ynydad.jpg

duhybu8u.jpg

u8usy4uz.jpg
 

Mattaus

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Mar 29, 2011
Messages
1,765
Location
Brisbane, Australia
There's no reason why you could not do that. It's all about spacing. How big is the internal diameter of the D40a? RLT collars come in 3 different outer diameters - 32mm, 47mm and 77mm. Pick one that fits. $49 a pop though...plus shipping I'd assume. Hence why tonight I'm going to screw around with an assortment of reflectors I have, plus some XP-E2 and XP-G2 emitters. See if I can get an increase in lux at all.

You might also need to make an adapter ring to get the LED sitting at the correct focal length for the lens. What size is that lens you have there?
 

TEEJ

Flashaholic
Joined
Jan 12, 2012
Messages
7,490
Location
NJ
The smallest aspheric thrower I have is the MBI HF-R with aspheric zoom head.

9838773755_a6b68c6a4e_c.jpg


Its ~ 2" long, and ~ 12,000 cd for throw. As its a zoom head, you can also make it flood, etc. Its ~ 350 lumens with the XPG2, so even the flood is pretty amazing, especially for its size.

:D
 
Last edited:

TEEJ

Flashaholic
Joined
Jan 12, 2012
Messages
7,490
Location
NJ
What is the diameter of the HF-R zoom lens, please ?

And is it glass, or plastic ?

I think its ~ 15-16 mm...the bezel is 19 mm.

I don't remember the plastic vs glass answer, I'd have to take it part or look on MBI's site to see if he mentioned it. My gut guess is plastic, but its very good quality.

:D
 
Last edited:

Mattaus

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Mar 29, 2011
Messages
1,765
Location
Brisbane, Australia
Thanks TEEJ for the info on the ZoomHead. I found some cheap lights that also have pretty reasonable throw. I beginning to think that you can make a decent thrower in ANY size - it's all about focusing as much light as you can before the final lens. I'll definitely be running a few tests this week. Sort of exciting lol.
 

jalal20

Enlightened
Joined
Apr 4, 2011
Messages
626
cleared my inbox :)

Thanks for the PM Jalal20. I tried replying but your inbox is full. And will do Archimedes. I think the biggest problem will be capturing enough light with such a small lens. I'm not after stupid throw - just something tighter and with more lux than a reflector + LED combo can deliver.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 4
 

matt304

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Sep 28, 2006
Messages
183
My opinion is the RLT collar is a possible worthless item with intent of placebo effect. Electrons excite energy states, and jump to a higher energy cloud state, when they fall back they release a photon of equivalent energy state jump. This occurs within a region of the LED. I have tried to stimulate Cree LEDs with lasers as well as focused emitter light from a 10° angle while the LED was in focal range at 0° to the lens focus axis, with finally enough laser light, I was able to achieve only a tiny reflection hotspot which occurred on the wall. My experiment put an entire light source back onto the LED. A wavien ring would be lucky to restrike the small LED with gathered, intense light. It's shape would need to be profiled to the individual LED characteristics to do such a precise thing. Where did our thinking caps go? DEFT X uses it so it's gotta go in? Hehe. Just build the light using proven methods and be happy! It's a mini thrower, afterall.

And for lens scale, you would want Cree XR-C/XP-C, someone correct if I am wrong on this LED choice but it is smallest I think.
 

Mattaus

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Mar 29, 2011
Messages
1,765
Location
Brisbane, Australia
My opinion is the RLT collar is a possible worthless item with intent of placebo effect. Electrons excite energy states, and jump to a higher energy cloud state, when they fall back they release a photon of equivalent energy state jump. This occurs within a region of the LED. I have tried to stimulate Cree LEDs with lasers as well as focused emitter light from a 10° angle while the LED was in focal range at 0° to the lens focus axis, with finally enough laser light, I was able to achieve only a tiny reflection hotspot which occurred on the wall. My experiment put an entire light source back onto the LED. A wavien ring would be lucky to restrike the small LED with gathered, intense light. It's shape would need to be profiled to the individual LED characteristics to do such a precise thing. Where did our thinking caps go? DEFT X uses it so it's gotta go in? Hehe. Just build the light using proven methods and be happy! It's a mini thrower, afterall.

And for lens scale, you would want Cree XR-C/XP-C, someone correct if I am wrong on this LED choice but it is smallest I think.

I agree with you, but unless they're flat out lying the guys that built the DEFT do believe it is actually worth it. Same with Mash.m, and he builds great stuff. That being said, and as you eluded to, I don't think the cost is worth the increased performance.

As for the XPC/E/G debate...the XPC might actually be the go for such a small optic. Measure out 13mm - that's tiny!. The XPC has such a small emitting area that it may be easier to foxus with my small lens than an XPE or XPG...

Meh, I'll buy an XPC emitter as well and have a play :D
 

Genzod

Banned
Joined
Apr 25, 2017
Messages
392
My opinion is the RLT collar is a possible worthless item with intent of placebo effect. ... DEFT X uses it so it's gotta go in? Hehe. Just build the light using proven methods and be happy! It's a mini thrower, afterall.

The collar collects wall light that would otherwise be wasted in a zoomie, recycles photons and eventually redirects photons to escape through the opening.

The efficiency for a dedomed LED without collar in a zoomie flashlight is sin2​θ, where θ is the angle between the lens radial axis and the vector from the LED center (approximately) to the outermost useful edge of the lens, usually defined by the host's lens lip or installed spacer. At a minimum, a wavien collar can increase intensity by the inverse of sin2​θ.

So if you have a lens with 16mm of useful diameter, and a back focal distance of 10mm (assuming the image focus is at 100m so that the emitter can be placed approximately at the back focal distance), the light captured by the lens is 39%. That's terribly inefficient. It's much better with very thick lenses having short focal length, like the UF-T20 host, which is around 60% in zoom.

One could install a collar with a maximal opening that allows the LED to lens edge vector to exit and get back at least the inverse of 39% which is an increase in intensity of 2.56x. There are additional rewards from generating increased surface brightness with recycling collisions from the formerly wasted wall light, off hand I'd guess somewhere in the neighborhood of 1.5-2.2x from what I've seen others accomplish, depending on the size of the collar opening.

A collar is only a "placebo" to the one who throws something together and hopes for the best and does not understand the physics and math required to set it up correctly (Or have sufficient money, knuckle grease, lux meter and trial and error patience to iterate toward optimal configuration). I believe people like Saabluster at CPF and Mem at BLF do understand what they are doing.
 
Last edited:
Top