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Battery Discussion Thread

Dead Reckoning

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The new boards are tested for shock and thermal (-40 to +120C) extremes...

And for recoil specifically, we have a v5 x300 in this guys hands:

It's about the perfect beam for srt/swat work and vehicle assaults.
Square range in rain and heavy dust in az
And a few multi day shoothouse classes
And one real world police warrant serving


700 rounds of 45acp
500 rounds of 9mm
And 300 rounds of 556
At least from what I am reading the engine itself is quite durable...but while we are on the subject what is the general consensus on shock issues(due to repetitive recoil) on possible power sources? i.e. 18650's ? This would be the complimentary set-up for me if I was going to run a wasp head with another OR/SF body.

I was researching the issue and what I found seemed to leave me with the impression that these hi output rechargeables might not be up to the task. Classes that I have put myself through over the years find me more often than not putting over 1k rounds in a two/three day time span. It seemed that the argument seemed to point to reasons why 123's were the preferred power source for weapon lights.

Any thoughts?
 
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ElectronGuru

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Battery Durability and Safety Thread

At least from what I am reading the engine itself is quite durable...but while we are on the subject what is the general consensus on shock issues(due to repetitive recoil) on possible power sources? i.e. 18650's ? This would be the complimentary set-up for me if I was going to run a wasp head with another OR/SF body.
The key concern is the impact force striking the top of the cell. For many cells, this is exactly where the PCB protection circuit sits, which tends to get crushed. So we recommend IMR-only for these uses and have not heard of issues over the years in doing so.
 
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recDNA

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Re: Moddoolar Triple Wasp Cooling Head and Glow System

The key concern is the impact force striking the top of the cell. For many cells, this is exactly where the PCB protection circuit sits, which tends to get crushed. So we recommend IMR-only for these uses and have not heard of issues over the years in doing so.
It's getting tougher to find imr that aren't hybrid these days. I only use AW
 
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ElectronGuru

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Re: Moddoolar Triple Wasp Cooling Head and Glow System

It's getting tougher to find imr that aren't hybrid these days. I only use AW

Word from Andrew:

The new IMR 3000 has a new element (nickel) added to enhance capacity. It does not use cobalt oxide like hybrid chemistry does (cobalt oxide provides highest capacity but it can also break down, releasing oxygen to fuel thermal runaway).
 
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recDNA

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Re: Moddoolar Triple Wasp Cooling Head and Glow System

Word from Andrew:

The new IMR 3000 has a new element (nickel) added to enhance capacity. It does not use cobalt oxide like hybrid chemistry does (cobalt oxide provides highest capacity but it can also break down, releasing oxygen to fuel thermal runaway).
Thanks. So this cannot vent with flame using atmospheric oxygen?
 

ElectronGuru

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Moddoolar Triple Wasp Cooling Head and Glow System

Thanks. So this cannot vent with flame using atmospheric oxygen?

Quoting Andrew:

Self releasing oxygen fire (from built in oxidizers) is hard to extinguish with conventional method such as water or CO2. Oxidizer free nickel is a safe anode material that has been used for years in Nicad and NiMH rechargeable batteries.

So nickel anode IMR don't have the built in oxygen that makes fires self sustaining and hard to put out.
 
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Dead Reckoning

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Re: Moddoolar Triple Wasp Cooling Head and Glow System

Thanks for the clarification.

The key concern is the impact force striking the top of the cell. For many cells, this is exactly where the PCB protection circuit sits, which tends to get crushed. So we recommend IMR-only for these uses and have not heard of issues over the years in doing so.


We are discussing this now. :popcorn:
 

recDNA

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Re: Moddoolar Triple Wasp Cooling Head and Glow System

Quoting Andrew again:
Self releasing oxygen fire (from built in oxidizers) is hard to extinguish with conventional method such as water or CO2. Oxidizer free nickel is a safe anode material that has been used for years in Nicad and NiMH rechargeable batteries.

So nickel anode IMR don't have the built in oxygen that makes fires self sustaining and hard to put out.
So they can vent with flame but be put out with water?
 

ElectronGuru

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Moddoolar Triple Wasp Cooling Head and Glow System

So they can vent with flame but be put out with water?

Quoting Andrew:

IMR including Nickel IMR could vent but never self sustain flame because there is no oxidizer

All battery chemistry (alkaline/zinc carbon/Nicad/NiMH/LiIon/lead acid) will vent when there is internal pressure built up.

So vent with flame requires an oxidizer, which IMR do not have.
 
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recDNA

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Re: Moddoolar Triple Wasp Cooling Head and Glow System

Thank you sooo much. I once had a another battery vent (not aw) with no flame but it scared the hell out of me so I try to be super careful now. So it sounds like as long as I fling the thing away so I don't breath it I'll be safe. Probably never happen again anyway. Fluke short circuit in a cheap flashlight. These new batteries sound great!
 

ElectronGuru

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Re: Battery Durability and Safety Thread

Thank you sooo much. I once had a another battery vent (not aw) with no flame but it scared the hell out of me so I try to be super careful now. So it sounds like as long as I fling the thing away so I don't breath it I'll be safe. Probably never happen again anyway. Fluke short circuit in a cheap flashlight. These new batteries sound great!
You ask a lot of questions but they tend to be the right questions. I and other have learned important information as a result. :twothumbs
 
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recDNA

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Re: Battery Durability and Safety Thread

You ask a lot of questions but they tend to be the right questions. I and other have learned important information as a result. :twothumbs
Thanks...and sorry I derailed the other thread. It is hard to get authoritative answers to these questions but I trust you and I trust Andrew. Thanks again.
 

waterout25

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Re: Battery Durability and Survival Thread

Hey Dan
I have a question, I just received an IMR 3000 18650. I put it in a XPL Wasp,slim 50 body with a zero res tail cap. It came on no problem
but when I moved it around it flickered, then it went to a different mode. So I think it's loosing contact. I tried it in a 65 body with a clicky tail cap and it works great.
Do you sell spacers?
 

tangomongo

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Re: Battery Durability and Survival Thread

I used 8mm x 3mm neodymium magnets I got from Home Depot to get that same setup to work.
 

waterout25

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Re: Battery Durability and Survival Thread

Thanks for the info, I'll go by Home Depot and grab one. After looking at my wasp for a few
minutes I seen problem. Because the 50's body is so short it's compressing the spring on the wasp head. So gently pulled it and it works a lot better. So now when the light is not being used I keep the tail cap real loose.

Thx
 

monanza

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Re: Battery Durability and Survival Thread

Is the magnet acceptable with high current draw of a wasp?

EDIT: I mean at the high output settings of course.
 

ajl

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Re: Battery Durability and Survival Thread

Hey Dan
I have a question, I just received an IMR 3000 18650. I put it in a XPL Wasp,slim 50 body with a zero res tail cap. It came on no problem
but when I moved it around it flickered, then it went to a different mode. So I think it's loosing contact. I tried it in a 65 body with a clicky tail cap and it works great.
Do you sell spacers?

From my limited experience with the zero res tail cap, that 18650 battery is 2mm shorter than two CR123 batteries. I am using a Delrin spacer/sleeve in a Z2 to replace the original two CR123's, which then caused operational problem (like you had) with a Zerorez tailcap, so I went with a larger (than the earlier reply below) 12mm x 3mm chrome super magnet (from Home Depot) placed on the positive end of the battery. Works nicely now. By the way, Surefire's original twisty tailcap worked fine with the shorter battery length.
 

fyrstormer

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Re: Triple v5 R33 Engine - 4th LED, 30w limit, Screen Programable, Dual Mode Groups

Thanks for the help everyone!

To confirm: the v5 will work with one or two cells. The 3000 IMR is not setup for series/pair use. Maybe I can convince AW to go dots on the next run. Get protected cells that much closer to obsolescence.
What's wrong with protected cells? I like knowing that the battery is watching out for itself, because there are still a LOT of "dumb" lights out there that don't shut down when the battery voltage drops too low.
 

ElectronGuru

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Triple v5 R33 Engine - 4th LED, 30w limit, Screen Programable, Dual Mode Groups

What's wrong with protected cells? I like knowing that the battery is watching out for itself, because there are still a LOT of "dumb" lights out there that don't shut down when the battery voltage drops too low.
Sorry, not meaning to spook anyone. My thoughts on the choice:

Protected cells offer two benefits vs IMR: capacity and cutoff for 'dumb' drivers. In return, they ask for several concessions. Larger size (wider from extra wrapping and longer from the PCB), vulnerability to impact (drops and recoil), cell death from closed circuit breaker, and (often) higher cost.

For any given light and all else being equal, people prefer more capacity 100% of the time. So protected cells have been the default cell, with IMR being a specialty cell (high amps and/or low resistance). As IMR gain capacity, protecteds are loosing their default status because if IMR offered more capacity 100% of the time, protecteds would be specialty cells for lights with no built in protection.

There is no best cell for all uses and all lights but for me, the whole of IMR features and drawbacks are preferable to the whole of protecteds features and drawbacks. I have and use both and go with IMR when possible/practical and recommend it as often.
 
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fyrstormer

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Re: Triple v5 R33 Engine - 4th LED, 30w limit, Screen Programable, Dual Mode Groups

Those failure modes are certainly possible; however, in 8 years of being a flashaholic, I have never experienced them.

The new AW RCR123s are the same length as the IMR18350s, so I suppose they're more accurately labeled 16350 instead of 16340. There's a guy on CPF (sorry, I forgot his name) who performs exhaustive battery tests, and it seems the latest RCRs and IMRs from AW perform almost exactly the same at all tested discharge rates, with the only noticeable difference (to my eyes) being the RCR cutoff. So it seems there's less difference between RCRs and IMRs than there used to be. Someone mentioned that the chemistries are hybridized nowadays, which would explain it.
 
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