Lumintop tool - 10440 or not?

tigfur

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Ive been trying to look up whether it is ok to use an 10440 battery inside the lumintop tool and i only seem to find two extremes

1) sellers that state "do not use 10440"

2) users that say "its 300lm on 10440 its amazing! i recommend that!"

So for once, can you guys tell me what the truth is?

(I have the cree XP-G2 version with three modes and 110 lumens)
 

chillinn

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The previous gen Tool, and gens previous to that, could accept 10440, (not sure relivant, but intereestingly, also used PWM). The current generation Tool is AAA only (again, unsure of relevancy, but the new drivers are CC). So you're going to find a mixture of old posts and new contradicting themselves. Other Lumintop AAA lights also used to accept 10440 without much issue, but the new Lumintop AAA-sized flashlights, afaik, are all AAA voltages only.
 

emarkd

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To add to the confusion, there's always variable tolerances in all circuit components and some lights will survive a trip to higher voltages better than others, even when they're not designed for it. I'm personally guilty of spreading mis-information (on another forum) because my personal copper Tool didn't blow up when I put a 10440 in it, so I reported it as compatible. Other users quickly chimed in and reported the opposite -- a permanent loss of modes after using a 10440 iirc. Same light, different results. I took my 10440 out and never tried it again because I like the light too much to risk it, but you can try it yourself if you're willing to gamble your light.
 

tigfur

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So previous versions were compactible but current arent? that sounds like a big downgrade to me. though the previous version had 70 lumens only.
 

Timothybil

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The third face of the coin, so to speak, is that it might work without any apparent problems, but actually be degrading the electronics in the driver so that they will fail early. This came up in another thread where it was the consensus that depending on the components and design of the driver, one could be sending it to an early grave by using an 10440. That is where the loss of modes discussion comes from. It means the driver itself is failing at that point. You will have to decide for yourself if the extra output is worth a possible shortened life for the light. Myself, I think I am going to just use NiMH cells in mine when it gets here (Chinese junk in route). But I also have an EA11 I am running with a 14500, so I already have a pocket rocket when I need one. I think my Tool is just going to be my new EDC, with the EA11 as backup when I think I may need it to bring along. I already have a Tube on my keychain so I have the requisite number to satisfy the mantra*.
Either way, enjoy the light. It looks to be a nice small light good for EDC.

*[Two is One, and One is None]
 

chillinn

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So previous versions were compactible but current arent? that sounds like a big downgrade to me. though the previous version had 70 lumens only.

It is common for newer members to assume that the only metric that matters in a flashlight is how bright it gets. Lumintop did switch the driver from a cheaper PWM circuit to a better quality CC circuit. That is a huge improvement IMO. Also, I don't believe Lumintop ever officially supported Li-ion, rather, intrepid users discovered this "feature."

Also, IMO, the previous gen Tools on Li-ion weren't really that impressive... I'd guess maybe 200lm on Li-ion. Sure, that's more than 70lm, but not exactly crazy and astoundingly bright, it's merely a little brighter. But I believe your Li-ion sweet tooth can be satisfied by getting a second Tool... a ToolVN. It is impressive, and will amaze and astound you for some time, until you realize crazy brightness isn't all that useful, certainly not as useful as an 85lm lower voltage light with decent runtime. But ToolVN will remain fun.
 
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swan

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I have the latest cc tool and measured all modes on both a eneloop aaa and a li ion 10440 soshine cell both hot off the charger, fully charged and these are my peak measurements.

Eneloop 111 lumens high
27 medium
2 low

10440 390 lumens high
235 medium
59 low

These are max immediate peak values- for reference the Ultratac k18 measures 385 lumens using the same 10440 cell.
 
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Bdm82

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Everything I've read said thst 10440 was not compatible with Tool, but worked for under 30s bursts. Those who let the light run longer on 10440s saw unwanted results. Have any of you ran it longer than 30s repeatedly without messing it up?
 

swan

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Everything I've read said thst 10440 was not compatible with Tool, but worked for under 30s bursts. Those who let the light run longer on 10440s saw unwanted results. Have any of you ran it longer than 30s repeatedly without messing it up?

Its not recommended or supported officially to run a 10440- but in short bursts on high, say 1 minute maximum i have had no problems and still operates with the aaa nimh as it originally did.

I have no doubt if run for long periods on the 10440 it will permanently damage/melt the driver. This light will benefit from and run a lot cooler with some extra heat sinking in the pill and the addition of a copper led pcb with direct thermal path and a xpl hi . This would make it possible to achieve over 600 lumens.

I personally run the eneloop in mine mostly because i like access to the lower output levels, which are too widely spaced on the 10440.

These are great value at around $15 so buy two and enjoy giving one of them a hard time with the 10440.
 

jon_slider

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Ive been trying to look up whether it is ok to use an 10440 battery inside the lumintop tool

you can, but there are issues you need to account for because
that question does not have a simple yes no answer… more like, yes if you observe several safety precautions

1. The light will not decide for you, when the 10440 is reaching overdischarge levels, there is no built in overdischarge protection
2. That means the operator has to decide when to stop discharging, or use protected cells
3. Overdischarging LiIon is bad. If you already know that, and already take resposibility for not overdischarging unprotected LiIon in UnProtected Lights.. then yes, the Tool will work with LiIon
4. The light will not decide for you when it is getting too hot, there is no built in Thermal Protection.
5. That means the operator has to decide when to stop letting the light get hot.
6. Overheating is bad. It can hurt you, and hurt you light.
etc

my personal journey led to this thread.. you may find it useful, it includes posters who use LiIon in Tools:

10440 LiIon in lights not rated for LiIon, pros and cons?

here is a post by a contributor to the above thread that uses 10440 in a current controlled Tool

quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by jon_slider

... The Maratac, Lumintop Tool (Copper, Alum, Ti, Rey Light Tool (Copper and Ti) and Worm (Copper, Stainless and Alum) in their present versions all use the same NoPwm driver afaik. I would expect them to react the same way. ...
I own all of these models (including all PWM and noPWM Maratacs) and they work perfectly with 10440 in my experience, YMMV


since then, it has come to light that the TiTool becomes HiMode only on 10440, until voltage drops to 3.6v.
there is more info about the use of 10440 in both copper and TiTools in this review:
Lumintop Tool AAA Copper + Titanium measurements (Nichia 219B)

Now answer me this
Why would you want to run LiIon in an AAA light that is not rated for the voltage, and has no protection(s), when the runtime on high is only about 10 minutes?-)
 
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chillinn

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This would make it possible to achieve over 600 lumens.

I wouldn't doubt it, but only maybe for a few minutes. I bet it is possible to get even 2000+ lumens... if a flashlight that is less of a utility than it is a couple bright camera flashes per cell, if that is useful to anyone.
 

swan

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I wouldn't doubt it, but only maybe for a few minutes. I bet it is possible to get even 2000+ lumens... if a flashlight that is less of a utility than it is a couple bright camera flashes per cell, if that is useful to anyone.

I agree that its a bit impractical but i look at these little key chain lights as fun lights, not for search and rescue. If runtime is a priority please use it on the lower modes or a std eneloop or better still a 18650 light .

The mecarmy pt10 runs a triple led 800 lumen model which runs a 10440 or vin sells a modified tool v54 model that pushes 700 lumens which are impractical also but it is so cool to see such power coming from such tiny lights.

I think these are show off lights and some say not practical, dangerous even, but i think fun to have in the collection if used with caution.
 

jon_slider

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with caution.

safety note:
When using LiIon in unprotected lights, it is safer to Use Protected cells.

That is not to say there are not people who use unprotected cells in unprotected lights, but they also follow safety precautions to prevent overdischarge, its just not automatic, and requires an "intelligent operator"
 

swan

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safety note:
When using LiIon in unprotected lights, it is safer to Use Protected cells.

That is not to say there are not people who use unprotected cells in unprotected lights, but they also follow safety precautions to prevent overdischarge, its just not automatic, and requires an "intelligent operator"

I agree using a protected li ion cell where the light does not have low voltage protection is safer and should not be used by the in experienced user but you can not get 600- 700 lumens from a protected 10440 cell because it cant deliver the current needed.

All li ion should be treated carefully but considering with most newly released high powered lights they will need unprotected high drain cells to operate in turbo that will be the norm rather than the exception.

Again any one considering running this little light on a 10440 should employ common sense not leave it on high unattended and read up on the dangers of lithium ion cells.
 
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chillinn

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Sorry, guys, not that a whitespace inversion of the protection circuit positive argument matters, but I can't agree about the safety assessment for protected cells, as far as keeping YOU safe, unless feeling safe is merely an irrational emotion with no science or practice backing it up. I think protected cells are instead "less expensive" over time for the less experienced user rather than safer for the user, because I think the "protection" in protected circuits is protecting the cell, not the user. If the cell is protected from abuse, it will last longer, and you'll spend less on cells. As far as all the promises a protection circuit makes, I won't put faith in it. A bad cell is a bad cell whether there is protection or not, and it is impossible to know if or when an abused cell will go critical, impossible to know if a coddled protected cell can't go critical. I'm always going to make my tired argument if only to jerk other users out of a false sense of security. No one is safe... all our middle names are "Danger," and we really are all daredevils that ultimately owe our safety to our knowledge of best practices. But the state of Li-ion cells seems better today than 5 years ago. Stuff gets better.
 

gurdygurds

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Intense! That's why I just roll with Envelops :D

QUOTE=chillinn;5011602]Sorry, guys, not that a whitespace inversion of the protection circuit positive argument matters, but I can't agree about the safety assessment for protected cells, as far as keeping YOU safe, unless feeling safe is merely an irrational emotion with no science or practice backing it up. I think protected cells are instead "less expensive" over time for the less experienced user rather than safer for the user, because I think the "protection" in protected circuits is protecting the cell, not the user. If the cell is protected from abuse, it will last longer, and you'll spend less on cells. As far as all the promises a protection circuit makes, I won't put faith in it. A bad cell is a bad cell whether there is protection or not, and it is impossible to know if or when an abused cell will go critical, impossible to know if a coddled protected cell can't go critical. I'm always going to make my tired argument if only to jerk other users out of a false sense of security. No one is safe... all our middle names are "Danger," and we really are all daredevils that ultimately owe our safety to our knowledge of best practices. But the state of Li-ion cells seems better today than 5 years ago. Stuff gets better.[/QUOTE]
 

swan

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Sorry, guys, not that a whitespace inversion of the protection circuit positive argument matters, but I can't agree about the safety assessment for protected cells, as far as keeping YOU safe, unless feeling safe is merely an irrational emotion with no science or practice backing it up. I think protected cells are instead "less expensive" over time for the less experienced user rather than safer for the user, because I think the "protection" in protected circuits is protecting the cell, not the user. If the cell is protected from abuse, it will last longer, and you'll spend less on cells. As far as all the promises a protection circuit makes, I won't put faith in it. A bad cell is a bad cell whether there is protection or not, and it is impossible to know if or when an abused cell will go critical, impossible to know if a coddled protected cell can't go critical. I'm always going to make my tired argument if only to jerk other users out of a false sense of security. No one is safe... all our middle names are "Danger," and we really are all daredevils that ultimately owe our safety to our knowledge of best practices. But the state of Li-ion cells seems better today than 5 years ago. Stuff gets better.

I personally prefer unprotected cells myself but i disagree that protected cells are not more safe for the inexperienced.

I will give you an example-

I gave my friend my old sunwayman t40cs which runs 2 cells in series. Whilst visiting him i thought i would check the light out since he can be very rough on any tool and to see how it was holding up.
I went to turn it on but he said it was flat. When i gave him this light along with some protected ncr 18650bs and explained some of the dangers of li ion , i was meet with rolling eyes, a yawn and a yeh yeh.

Any how i pulled the cells to read the voltage, one cell was tripped and showing 0 voltage, the other 3.80 volts. I put them on charge and wondered what happened, maybe a faulty cell?

After asking him about it he said because his zebralight sc600 mk1 [ which i convinced him to buy] was running low he used one of the cells from t40cs but placed the flat in its place giving the sunwayman 2 uneven voltage cells.

Now- just imagine if these where un protected cells at uneven voltages he would of had a very dangerous reverse charging situation that could of potentially been ugly.

Ok that is two cells in series and this cant happen with a single cell set up- but an un protected single can be shorted in your pocket with keys etc and probably burn you if you are silly enough to carry it this way which my friend just might be. A quality cell with a quality protected circuit will just trip if in the same scenario in pocket with keys and wont cause harm.

These are just a couple of examples that can happen to a new user of li ion and thats why i think they are slightly safer.
 
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Crazyeddiethefirst

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Hey Chillin,
I agree. As an experienced flashaholic, I feel reasonably confident in my knowledge & use of li-ion cells of all types. However I came very close to injury in a circumstance I had never considered: I was visiting my in laws and have a newbie show me his light that he was so proud of-when I found out he had "sh*tfire" lithium flattop with a glued magnet to make it a button top, I opened the light to explain the possible dangers therein. As I removed the 18650, apparently some glue from the glue gun he used had melted the wrapper of the battery to the inside of the flashlight(obviously I did not know that at the time). As the wrapper of the battery tore, the conductive metal strip shorted out, the battery became a flaming projectile that hit me close to the groin, leaving two almost surgical looking incisions in my shorts-my reflexes were fast enough I hit the flaming battery down to the ground before I sustained any burns(talk about getting hit below the belt). I then dumped a nearby cat litter box onto the still flaming battery to extinguish the flames before the carpet caught on fire. My in-laws (& their cat) were not very happy with me. Another lesson learned about improper care & handling of lithium cells.
To bring this back on topic, I did use a 10440 on my first Maratac- in short bursts it seemed fine. The first time I used high for over 1 minute, the light would no longer work on NIMH or alkaline cells. The second time I went longer, I actually melted components off the pcb and the light was dead forever...
 

jon_slider

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My in-laws (& their cat) were not very happy with me
Good Save!
ignorant people can be suprisingly ungrateful :)
(ignorance is not stupidity, it is simply lack of knowledge)

Common Sense is not that Common..
An ignorant person's Common Sense is different, than the Common Sense of a person with more knowledge

Hopefully some of this discussion has helped the OP acquire more knowledge about the safety issues of LiIon, and when to dump the catbox :cool:
 
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