Trail Runners, Fastpackers & Urban Runners, What Lamps Do You Use?

Genzod

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What do you as a runner use for a headlamp at night, and what output settings do you use to negotiate various course conditions?


I've read so many experts telling us how many lumens we need for running at night. The first opinion I came across was given by a popular YouTube blogger who said "100 lumens". The next blogger I read said "a minimum of 100-120 lumens". A decorated ultra-marathoner said she liked to use 85 lm but bumped it up to 170 when the trail got really technical. Slower runners like fastpackers thru-hiking a mountainous, national trail tend to prefer something between 50-100 lumens.

They can't be all right...right? :thinking:

Actually, they are. What they are describing is best for them given the context of their own running style, the different courses they run on, their personal preference between brightness level and rate of battery consumption and the design of the specific headlamps that they use. What you will need for night time running depends on your own personal set of variables.

I initiated this thread for sharing our experiences running with headlamps so new runners could make a more informed selection choosing a headlamp that will provide the most suitable light for their night time running needs.

So to help these new runners, my question seeks the context of your headlamp use as a runner. (
Keep one headlamp in mind when answering the following suggested questions):



  1. [*=2]How fast are you running with this lamp?
    [*=2]How far ahead do you tend to look or need to see to chart a course through immediate obstacles?
    [*=2]What kind of terrain are you running on in this particular instance? Is it steep, rocky, rooty, wet, muddy, sandy, narrow, winding or asphalt, wide open, and flat? Remember, a specific lamp under a specific trail description.
    [*=2]What is the nature/structure of the light beam your lamp is putting out? How many lumens, flood, spot/spill, or diffused?
    [*=2]What brand and model of lamp are you using in this particular instance?
    [*=2]What output settings (lumens) are you using under different conditions?
    [*=2]Does that amount of light in that instance seem on the marginal side, moderate middle or on high side of being enough for running?
    [*=2]Is the level of light or type of beam you are describing impacted by fog, precipitation or snow cover?


There are no wrong answers here and the list isn't necessarily exhaustive. I'm interested in learning what works best for you so other people can get an idea of what might work best for them.

Some examples of helpfully formatted responses are provided below.

And please, remember to have mercy on the forum members reading here. Don't click "reply with quote" to this introduction!

You can share as many lamps/situations/conditions as you are kind enough to do. Try to focus on a specific example with a corresponding headlamp and settings (one lamp at a time) so readers can get a feel for the differences between each. If you want to share about more than one headlamp, discuss them in separate paragraphs to minimize confusion.​


Fictitious Examples:

"I used Brand A model 2 (spot/spill beam geometry) on a setting of 50 lumens and fastpacked mountain trail at an average speed of 3.5 mph, and that light was just right for most situations except when the trail became very technical with turns and wet roots, then I needed 100 lumens to be more sure of my footing. I think 50 and 100 from this lamp in those situations was on the economic side of battery conservation.

"I've used Brand B model 4 (pure flood) for urban street running at a steady 9 minute mile pace on mildly hilly asphalt road. The light was very short range and not very useful at the lower outputs, but 700 lumens and above was very useful. I had enough range at 700 lm to have plenty of warning time for obstacles , and the intensity was still effective even as the occasional car with lights on approached me. The lamp shifted down after 60 minutes of use, but my nightly runs usually never last that long. I just hook the USB to my computer and it's ready for the next night's running."


halo-fire-nathan-headlamp1-1024x682.jpg
 
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Genzod

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Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!

I'll start off by giving my experience.

I have used the Princeton Tec Quad (2011 version) to fastpack the AT in southwestern VA at night. With an 11 lb pack and body weight of 190 lbs, I typically run 16 hours a day at an average speed of 2.65 mph (3.2-3.5mph level). The trail here is very rocky as opposed to rooty, very steep at times, open and tends to run straight following ridge-line without a lot of winding. The headlamp provides a wide beam (90 degrees), and it has a relatively strong spot (10 degrees). There are only three settings, and I always use medium for running, which is about 21 lumens. I tend to point the spot in such a way as to see everything on the ground within 2 seconds of distance ahead of me. The brightness at medium is plenty enough to do the job for that speed and terrain, never marginal and yet economical. As I lose weight and increase fitness, I will probably approach an average 3.5mph (4.2-4.6mph level) in this section, and I will need more light to look a bit farther ahead of me.
 
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geokite

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Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!

1) About 3-4 mph, depending on fitness.
2) 10-15 feet
3) Steep, rocky trail up and around a mountain of 900' elevation difference over about 1.5 mile long trail (Cowles Mtn. in San Diego).
4, 5) DIY knuckle lights (a H502d on the back of each hand) at 73 lum each, pure flood. Hand carry a SC52d for the things that go bump in the bushes, 300 lum with 14500, only on when needed (usually not at all).
6) Sometimes I can get away with 36 lum for each of the H502d, but not usually. Not a whole lot of variation around here when I trail run at night.
7) Because I know the trail so well (20 years), 73 lum is plenty of light. I'll have to try an unknown trail some time :)

I really prefer pure flood for trails, running or hiking. Unless I'm fearing bears or mountain lions, I see no need to see as far as I can during the day. Running and hiking with pure flood gives me the feeling of being under full moon light, as it fades away into the distance.

Steve
 

Genzod

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Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!

I really prefer pure flood for trails, running or hiking. Unless I'm fearing bears or mountain lions, I see no need to see as far as I can during the day. Running and hiking with pure flood gives me the feeling of being under full moon light, as it fades away into the distance.

Steve

I really like the light of a pure flood. As a fastpacker, I like to carry one lamp to save weight. The spot/spill lamps give me some range to find trail blaze markers.
 

Woods Walker

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Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!

  1. How fast are you running?
  2. How far ahead do you tend to look or need to see to chart a course through obstacles?
  3. What kind of terrain are you running on--steep, rocky, rooty, wet, muddy, sandy, narrow, winding or asphalt, wide open, and flat?
  4. What is the nature of the light you are using--lumens, flood, spot/spill, or diffused?
  5. What brand and model of lamp do you use?
  6. What settings are you using under different conditions?
  7. Does that amount of light seem marginal or plenty enough to increase confidence so you can run at your best?

1. About 4 to 6 mpr for maybe 6-20 miles.

2. Whatever happens happens. The trails and woods are too unpredictable with heavy Forrest cover. Tress go down, rocks slide and there is flooding.

3. Everything listed.

4. Often headlamps but occasionally flashlights. Overall during bad weather flashlights tend to be better. I prefer 50-100 lumens when moving fast.

5. Armtek, Fenix, Nitecore and others as well.

6. Try to use the least amount possible which often makes no logic. Should just crank it up as often have more than enough battery power but my longer range outing discipline is hard to break.
 

Woods Walker

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Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!

There are more factors than the listed 6 which are also important IMHO for a good trail running experience but mobile now so will update later.
 

Genzod

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Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!

There are more factors than the listed 6 which are also important IMHO for a good trail running experience but mobile now so will update later.

Feel free to suggest additional factors for the list and I will update it. Thanks for your help!
 

TCY

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Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!

Good thread, I hope more people can contribute. I'm not a runner so don't have anything to share. I'm surprised that people can run comfortably with sub-100 lumens at night, I'm more of a "wanna see everything in front of me" kinda guy. Guess batteries hate me:devil:
 

Genzod

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Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!

Good thread, I hope more people can contribute. I'm not a runner so don't have anything to share. I'm surprised that people can run comfortably with sub-100 lumens at night, I'm more of a "wanna see everything in front of me" kinda guy. Guess batteries hate me:devil:

Feel free to say something short and simple like "Although I'm not a runner, I use the ZL-H52w hiking speeds around 2.5-3.0 mph and prefer the 25 lumen setting for backpacking in mountainous terrain. Any lower than the next medium of 12 lm, and I start stepping on Koalas." (That would highlight the effect of speed on light requirements).

a917c79c062c62bc55f070a23f3d2f22.jpg
 

Genzod

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Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!

Try to use the least amount possible which often makes no logic. Should just crank it up as often have more than enough battery power but my longer range outing discipline is hard to break.

Actually there is wisdom in consistently using economic levels of light if you have a need for it, and I think you are subconsciously aware of the reason. Spoiling yourself with more light than you need, even if it is not for an extended trip, can have an addictive result, making the "high" of your extended trail running adventures not as luminously satisfying. Best to keep yourself trained with one intensity level, so it is always easy to keep using it!
 

ThinAirDesigns

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Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!

I am an ultra-distance trail runner and I just finished (Saturday) a successful completion of the SCAR (Smokie Challenge Adventure Race) - 75 miles of the Appalachian Trail through the Smokie Mountain National Park. Like many ultra-distance events, this required running on steep technical terrain through the night. I worked pretty hard the last 6 months or so getting my lighting the way I wanted it (I have a thread on this forum sharing some of that work) and I was quite pleased with my final results.

I don't have time at the moment, but in the next 24 I will share what I finally settled on and how it worked for me.

JB
 

Genzod

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Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!

I am an ultra-distance trail runner and I just finished (Saturday) a successful completion of the SCAR (Smokie Challenge Adventure Race) - 75 miles of the Appalachian Trail through the Smokie Mountain National Park. JB

I remember SMNP. Lots of step up and step down pounding on the knees. You could come around a bend or a crest and quite literally stumble over a bear. A picture is worth a 1000 words:

4eb470f1a151dacd9920bce3a6f3ab91.jpg


I'm looking forward to your post about your lighting system. Looks like you mastered the art of the Trail-Jedi, your own personalized "lightsaber"! Reminds me of Darth Maul's for some reason...:thinking:

Darth_Maul.jpg


DoubleLight_zpsjuvzgepe.jpg
 
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TCY

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Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!

Feel free to say something short and simple like "Although I'm not a runner, I use the ZL-H52w hiking speeds around 2.5-3.0 mph and prefer the 25 lumen setting for backpacking in mountainous terrain. Any lower than the next medium of 12 lm, and I start stepping on Koalas." (That would highlight the effect of speed on light requirements).

a917c79c062c62bc55f070a23f3d2f22.jpg

Problem is I rarely step out the door at night... I would like to step on koalas but they are probably all munching leaves on top of zoo trees:eek:
 

Genzod

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Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!

Lumen requirements can change with speed. What you deemed sufficient to walk with may not be what you need to run fast with. I'll give you an example walking and running with the Princeton Tec Quad.

My Quad (may it rest in peace) provided practical light for hiking speeds of up to 2.64 mph at the lowest setting of 8 lm (fastest case being downhill). I tend to want 2 seconds of reaction time for obstacles, so this places the top edge of the 10 degree spot around 2 m ahead of me. If I were to start running at about 5mph, getting that 2 second distance lit up in front of me requires an aim that places that leading edge about 4.5 m ahead.

The requirement is, having intensity at the center of the spot equal in both cases for approximately similar brightness of light. Since the ratio of distances from the head to the ground in both cases increases by about the square root of 2, the intensity roughly halves, so doubling lumens to 16 is required.

But perceived and measure light are two different animals. As received light increases, the pupil contracts, so more light output is needed to compensate. In a room, lighting technicians use a square root formula (point source) between % changes of measured and perceived intensity. I'm assuming that's the case to jive experience with calculation. Accuracy isn't as important here as consistency is when modeling the instances of two different speeds.

So to make the measured center point intensity seem to match, the perceived change in intensity must double from 8 to 16*. That means measured must increase from 8 to 32, since that side of the equation is handled by the square root operator. 16/8 = sqrt(32/8). So a minimum of 32 lumens of measured output is required.

*(I use lumens in the ratio because the area of my field of perception isn't changing. If you have one small spot of equal intensity on a wall, and then create a much larger spot in its place with the same intensity, the intensities are equal, but you have extra lumens that are now blinding you. The lumens in the ring outside the perimeter of the original spot are like the extra lumens you get from a car with its headlamps on when approaching you. Those extra lumens in your field of vision make it harder to see the road because they contract the pupil. It's the same way with a room. Your field of vision doesn't change, and if you assume the light is evenly spread in the room, particularly in your field of vision, you can use output lumens in the equation and get the same results.)

Crab apple forum trolls looking for an opportunity to unload some pent up energy will note, if the spot intensity (returning to the eye) sent farther down range doesn't seem different once adjusted to equal the prior intensity of the slower speed at closer range, why would the pupil contract? Perception of spot intensity is equal despite the increase in measured light because the spot is farther away. (Leans back from his keyboard with a self-congratulatory pat on his back over his seemingly successful rhetorical parley.)
:touche:​

En garde, monsieur pussycat: The spill light in the foreground is still hitting trees, brush and the ground at roughly the same distances as before, and increasing intensity of the spot to match the first case at slower speed increases apparent intensity in the foreground spill, making the spot intensity seem dimmer due to pupil contraction. Therefore more light is required to counteract the intensity increases in the spill light until the perceived intensity of the spot is equalized.

Now the required output is 32 lm minimum (formerly 8 lm). That's a substantial (noticeable) difference in light requirement. The medium setting of this light is about 20 lm, so I would need to use the high setting of 45 lm. (I would need a more efficient light now because that high setting doesn't last long.)

The math is just an approximation (a useful tool an engineering designer might use to establish a "ballpark" design constraint if you will), but it is useful here to demonstrate the fact that variations in speed can have different lumen requirements.

:thinking: Please note: I'm still trying to verify the way I used the math here. From experience, I have to use the higher setting of 20 lm on the Quad when I run 33% faster at 3.5 mph (Math suggests I need 15 lm for equivalent light, and that seems right since the 20 seems to provide more confident light than I had when walking with 8 lm). It seems reasonable that I would need more than 20 if I run 89% faster at 5 mph, so that seems to check.

But the point isn't have I done the math of the estimate properly, the point is, speed increases need for higher lamp output. The intensity of the spot is inversely proportional to the square of the distance between the lamp and the ground target. A speed increase will require you to move that aim farther ahead of you, if you seek the same 2 second reaction time distance. That increase in throw distance diminishes the intensity of the light at the spot center, requiring a compensating boost in lumens and a further correction for pupil contraction to restore intensity to the former level.
 
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Woods Walker

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Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!

1. Comfort. The headlamp has gotta be comfortable to run with.

2. Adjustable on the fly and not slip out of adjustment.

3. Be prepared.

If night jogging the street I really really want to be seen.





Even on the trail I like to have reflector straps on the pack for times I break trail to cross roads etc.



If in the woods I will pack some kit. Remember if jogging it doesn't take long to be miles from the trail head. A mechanical injury can happen to anyone. Pack the phone and let a responsible person know your plans and expected return. It's called a float plan.



Flashlight and headlamp. Pack both as sometime one is better than the other and two is one and one is none.



UL Knife and ferro rod.



Larger PSK.




Know when to show down. I was scampering down rocks last night testing a new headlamp. You gotta watch every step and hand hold. 3 points of contact.



The spot above my heel got sliced by off all things a rose. No kidding. Up to 5 tick bites so far this spring as well.



The winter has it's own issues.





Beyond cars the street has it's own dangers.



Not trying to sound dramatic but running at night has it's risks. Accidents can happen so work up to rougher ground and physical goals. What hurts you for real doesn't make you stronger. It just makes you injured so take care and have a float plan.
 

planetrunner

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Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!

Jumping in on this thread because it's interesting to see what other trail runners are using... and prefer. I'm a trail runner in Ottawa, Canada -- mostly running at night in the Gatineau Hills either solo or with my local trail run club.


1. Running about 5:30/km to 7:30/km depending on the elevation. Downhills can get up to 4:30/km.
2. On winding and technical single track 50 meters is enough to see ahead. On open fireroad/wider trails, I like 100 meters minimum.
3. Technical: mud, roots, rocks, brush
4. I've had the best luck using lumens (more power the better), tend to lean towards Flood beams (especially on winding trails)
5. Fenix HL50 and Ay Up Run (metal casing all the way!)
6. Flood light for most nighttime conditions, spotlight when foggy/rainy
7. Having the rights trail shoes and running technique build more confidence than having the right light (no light will make up for sloppy foot technique on trails)

Having done a number of ultras and broken so many headlights over the years, the one thing I'd say is that the build quality of a headlamps matters so much for a trail runner. Even the best runners will accidentally clip a tree branch with their headlamp, drop it, or unintentionally bang it up.

With races like UTMB coming up, it'd be cool to pull together a list of all the headlamps the ultra guys/girls are using in rotation right now.
 

Genzod

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Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!

1. Comfort. The headlamp has gotta be comfortable to run with.

2. Adjustable on the fly and not slip out of adjustment.

3. Be prepared.

Are these the additions you wanted for the list?
 
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Woods Walker

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Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!

Not asking anything to be added to a list. Just giving my field experience. To be honest very often I use what's on hand if pushing late. Only on the internet do we always have the perfect tool for a job however skills and safety precautions are transferable to any kit. I don't know why one person wants 700 lumens and another 100. It's interesting to talk about the beam shape, exact lumens for every localized environment, preferred tint etc etc etc. That's cool but now maybe if the uninitiated are reading this thread they will be reminded of issues which along with the exact lumen setting someone else prefers might help prevent injury or could mitigate the chain of events after. It's in my nature to do this.
 

Woods Walker

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Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!

Another consideration is weather conditions. That greatly influences what output and beam I prefer when trail running. Have some photos but will post them later.
 

Genzod

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Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!

Another consideration is weather conditions. That greatly influences what output and beam I prefer when trail running. Have some photos but will post them later.

That's a good one. I added it as #8 to the list.

Do you have any recommendations for useful light in fog, Woods Walker? It's almost impossible to navigate in mountain fog with a floody cool white lamp even if it has a spot. I tried to negotiate a right turn onto a road and then another right turn off the road somewhere around mile 8-10 on the AT in GA, and the fog was so thick It took me a half hour to successfully negotiate the 50 yard (or less) maneuver because I couldn't find the tree markers with my headlamp.

Do you find warmer tints and powerful narrow beams work better in fog? How about red light, does that make a difference? Does holding and aiming the lamp from the waist help any?
 
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