Why Aren't They Making More High Power (as in lumens) Throwers?

The manufacturers seem to be going either towards making high lumen, multiple LED monster flooders, or much lower lumen, single emitter throwers. I own both, but why can't there be a hybrid design that combines the best of both worlds? The only widely available production flashlight I know of that goes somewhat in this direction is the Imalent DT35.

I think there's a point of diminishing returns with pure flooders. it becomes output just for the sake of output. The extra lumens end up being mostly wasted in creating a blinding wall of light - with so much of it reflected back at you from close objects and the ground that things in the distance will be lost in the glare.

With the use of deeper reflectors and better focusing of multiple high power emitters, I see no reason you couldn't have a both powerful and yet still useful beam that reaches well past the 1000 meter mark.

Just my 2 lumens worth... Any thoughts?

That the pure flooders just produce a lot of up-close light to be reflected back to you is sort of the point. You illuminating an entire small field at once, not trying to spot a singular object from a long distance away. How useful that actually is depends on the user, I suppose. I don't really have much use for it, although the idea of such a light as a replacement for a plug-in halogen work lamp has occurred to me - those are also in the ballpark of 10,000 lumens for a single light, and pure flood.

Very roughly speaking, achieving long throw takes a large reflector and a small emitting area, and the manufacturers seem to have settled on the XP footprint as the optimum for emitting area.

If you look at some of the top throwers on the market, like the Thrunite TN42, they're a lot bigger that their flooder counterparts, despite only having a single emitter (XHP35 HI), but cranks out an insane 600,000 candela. Look at the pictures of that light and imagine what the equivalent result would be if they nested together multiple emitters in overlapping reflectors like in the TN36 flooder.

They actually sort of did that with the TN40S. It has the same head diameter as the TN42, but instead of using 1 x XHP35 HI emitter, they used 4 x XP-L HI emitters. Rated output more than doubled to 4450 lumens, but intensity fell by almost half to 330,000 candela.

That said, the TN40S still achieves over 1000 meters throw, and honestly, it might be a more useful beam to more people than the very tight dot produced by the TN42. Like you said about output for the sake of output, I sometimes wonder if others might likewise chase throw for the sake of throw.

All of the Nitecore current Tiny Monster lights from the TM15 to the TM36 are multi-emitter lights with very respectable throws. Yet the TM38 is a single emitter with a much larger reflector, and it throws the farthest. To get good throw one needs a reflector that is deeper than it is wide, the deeper for a given width the narrower the beam and the further the throw. A great example of this is the Nitecore P30, where the head is about 3" deep and only 2" in diameter. It has some nice spill that doesn't come blasting back at you, but my oh my that beam. There is a very distinct beam, especially at the higher powers. And for a single 18650 light, six hundred meters of reaching out and touching someone is very respectable.

I know, I'm a Nitecore fanboy. Outside of my Surefire 6P and G2, all of my major lights have been Nitecore. So far I haven't had a problem and am extremely satisfied with them. Since I won't comment on a light I don't own except in very general terms, Nitecore is what I comment one and suggest.

Lineup: Surefire 6P and G2, Nitecore EA4, EA41, EA45S, TM11, TM16, TM16GT, P30, a dozen Tubes (gifts), two Tips, almost a dozen BLF348s (more gifts), and some Lumintop Tools in aluminum and copper.

Also, plus the above replies,

Lots of power and throw are very difficult to do both at the same time. Lots of one, or lots of the other, with little of the other is very easy. Some of both is easy. Lots of both requires a larger head diameter and larger fuel supply.

Currently, Acebeam X65 is the bees knees for me. Lots of light put out there at 400 meters (yards).

I like the rifle scope analogy. Lots more magnification and lots more field of view requires a larger rifle scope.

I also like the rifle cartridge analogy. Lots of up front shut down power and lots of range is doable both at the same time by going to a much larger cartridge. A medium size rifle cartridge can not do lots of both.

Normal people do not use very large flashlights. Smaller are more popular, then medium size flashlights are moderately popular, and very large flashlights that can put out large power and large throw are less popular. Very large high performance flashlights are for people who do special work and/or are enthusiasts. The masses do not own an X65.

Creating throw monsters and lumen monsters in the same light requires a huge light, and physical limitations make it such that you won't be finding any 1000m+ throw light with tons of lumens in a smallish or even medium sized light.

Also, I see manufacturers making just as much high output throwers as I see them making pure flooders or pure throwers.

Take thrunite for example: they have 1 thrower (tn42), one high lumen thrower (tn40), and one flooder (tn36)

Also take acebeam: they have one thrower (k70),one high lumen thrower (x65), and one flooder (x80)

Today's top flooders (i.e Acebeam X65) throw further than the top throwers from just a couple years back.

I'm a huge fan of the large reflector flooders. For me, the K60 puts so much useable light downrange that I sold my K70's and don't currently own a dedicated thrower.

These past two years have been amazing for those of us that love lights with a LOT of horsepower. And there's no sign it's slowing down!!!

I like the idea of a multi emitter thrower...just take six tn42 reflectors at about 90 mm diameter ea., bolt them all together, put an xpg2 in the bottom of each, and voila, you have a $1500, 6- emitter thrower, less than 1 foot diameter, close to 5000 lm, and at least 3m cd if focused properly. That would be my new dog walking light for sure!

At that point you might as well buy an HID.

To answer the first post, the reason is due to the physics of optics. To produce the most throw you need an emitter with a die size that is small so that its physically as near to a point source as possible. An emitter with a small die area will produce proportionately less overall lumens than a similar one with a larger die size and area.

An emitter with a small die size but relatively good output (considering the small size) like the XHP35-Hi has high luminance. The higher the luminance, the higher the throw.

The larger the reflector diameter, the higher the throw. Multi-emitters in multiple reflectors will have less throw than a single emitter in a large reflector.

Combine all these factors, and you'll have a long-throwing light, like the Acebeam K70, for example.

This thread has generated some interesting comments, and I have to admit I lean more towards throw in flashlights. My original gist was that it seems to me that a little less spill and a little more hotspot is doable without violating the laws of physics. Take the much awaited Olight X9 Marauder for example - a touted 25,000 lumens and less than 400 meters of throw. I think this is overkill and little more than wow factor (...not that I'm against wowing people with my lights, mind you).

Also, I think there's big difference between a flood light when the source is on an elevated pole away from you, versus when it's held by you. It doesn't take that much output to adequately illuminate a relatively small area ahead of you in the dark. And since you effectively are the light source, with that much power and spill, objects close ahead of you (i.e. trees, brush, signs, buildings, etc.) are going to reflect back huge amounts of wasted light, effectively overwhelming your eyes and night-blinding you. This contradicts the very purpose of have a flashlight to begin with.

My point was that flashlight manufacturers appear to have gone overboard on lumens and that most of the extra power is being wasted on heat and glare.

Cheers and thanks for all the input.

The Acebeam K60 sounds like the type of light you're looking for. An all-purpose Search & Rescue beam with ~5000 lumens of output and still quite far throwing (If I recall correctly nearly a 1000m)

Whatever became of de-doming an emitter to turbo charge the throw?

A light with a pencil beam just isn't in vogue these days. It seems an array of LED's with a blend to rid the corneas of that Mickey Mouse silouette look is the direction everyone is going.
The mainstream tac light makers have all gone in a "max vision" direction, partly because of physics, but market plays a roll too.

Some of my antique search and rescue lights throw a beam that seems to be shot out of a bazooka with about 100 lumens... or less. But the ginormous reflector required just wouldn't sell these days.

A serious thrower based on lumens would be that seemingly prehistoric Maglite design with their current emitter technology.
I know they aint sexy, nor seemingly cutting edge, but do not rule out a simple D cell Maglite. CD numbers at 1000 meters that mimic the sun? Uh, no. But the old fashioned Maglite tossing out 600+ lumens aint nothing to sneeze at. No self blinding issues with those either.

Albert56 said:

And since you effectively are the light source, with that much power and spill, objects close ahead of you (i.e. trees, brush, signs, buildings, etc.) are going to reflect back huge amounts of wasted light, effectively overwhelming your eyes and night-blinding you.

Click to expand...

This!
I often see people beeing impressed by, and usually emphasizes the "long range" of the high lumen, multi emitter lights. While they seemingly forget that all the foreground light blind you so much, you lose a lot more range than the label says, compared to a low lumen light with slightly less throw. Of course, there is absolutely nothing wrong with high lumen, "long range" lights, but I wouldn't personally brag about the throw, unless they _really_ throw. I guess I have a good example of that myself with 70k lumens and 62 million candela. A light that I can safely call a high lumen thrower... The other thing is that the multi emitters step down so fast because of heat or battery. Some seemingly think the step down only apply to the lumens, and they somehow keep the same throw... Well, needless to say, you don't. A low lumen, single emitter thrower, is often able to produce both max lumens and thereby max throw (or close to) for a long time, sometimes up to an hour if not more. The narrower beam will cover less ground, but you also have a lot more time to cover that ground.

Actually, that's a good idea.

A good XHP70 or XHP70.2 thrower will do the trick just fine. An XHP70.2 will output around 5000-6000 lumens, and when it's in a large diameter smooth reflector, will throw 700ish-1000ish meters.

Because it's one LED in one reflector, you won't get any weird beam patterns, and because it's just the one XHP70, it won't get as hot in a large body as a multi-emitter design.

Albert56 said:

The manufacturers seem to be going either towards making high lumen, multiple LED monster flooders, or much lower lumen, single emitter throwers. I own both, but why can't there be a hybrid design that combines the best of both worlds? The only widely available production flashlight I know of that goes somewhat in this direction is the Imalent DT35.

I think there's a point of diminishing returns with pure flooders. it becomes output just for the sake of output. The extra lumens end up being mostly wasted in creating a blinding wall of light - with so much of it reflected back at you from close objects and the ground that things in the distance will be lost in the glare.

With the use of deeper reflectors and better focusing of multiple high power emitters, I see no reason you couldn't have a both powerful and yet still useful beam that reaches well past the 1000 meter mark.

Just my 2 lumens worth... Any thoughts?

Click to expand...

I think you have a point there. Super flooders may be fun as well as super throwers. When it comes to throwers the problem with multi thousand lumen models be that the spill becomes too bright and as you describes it with flooders creating a blinding wall of light on the foreground worsening the ability to see the illuminated object far away.
Apart from that the bright spill can make some undesired attention. For example if you want to shine up a dark area in a settlement. Then the bright spill can result in that people running to the windows and check what bright light shining into the house. At least if we imagine a 10000lumen thrower with typical reflector beam character...

Therefore I like Armyteks 40deg spill for the Predator and Barracuda. It's narrower than the competition and is to prefer instead of a wider spill for some purposes, in my opinion.
Otherwise a TIR design is the way to go. The spill is very wide but dimmer than with reflector and the intensity decreases more or less gradually towards the edges.
Surefire ML6T Guardian is a great spotlight with huge hotspot and dim but useful spill. You can see what's in front of your path but it neither make attention at the sides or blinds at the foreground. Malkoff M91T is great as well, with brighter spill than ML6T but not bright as reflector light.

Not that long back, we had 60lm and could get by...................now we have too many Figures are all cool, 4000lm , 12,000lm etc , bit like a cars 0-60 and top speed. But thats it, just figures and for me how the beam is for the application in mind is key. I dont want 600kcd under the bonnet checking my oil, i want soft neutral flood. Even walking , most uses can easily get by under 500lm(still nice to blast the darkness away and show who's boss now and then.)

Although flood is more useful to my needs generally, i still enjoy throw and even better at times a nice balance of both. Pencil beam types are not really for me, but firing a HUGE hot spot 100's of meters sure is. But then, the brighter the spill close up effects how the eyes see the hot spot down field and can make it look dimmer than it is. Guess there are flip sides to all types of beams, must admit its fun trying them all out on the never ending challenge of finding the perfect one.

ven,

In my personal opinion the race for higher lumens have went a bit too far. While getting 10000lm or more in a soda can sized body is possible, it's not practical. Not even unprotected high drain cells can keep the brightness stable and it drops quickly, the highest brightness level is available only with fully charged cells. And even if the cells could maintain the brightness the light had soon been overheated because it's just too small mass to dissipate the heat away. Therefore the automatical step down features.
Extending the performance as close to the limit of what is possible is not the optimal, I think. But for sure it's a selling argument. Lumen sells.

Yes lumens sure does sell, and agree it is a bit crazy at the moment. As much as i love crazy output, i like a nice useful beam and colour temp(thats is what is of real use for me). With the knowledge here and how cautious we can be with an understanding behind our equipment...................its a scary thought anyone can just buy a pop can monster and chuck some fire cells in it.............Now we have 25,000lm+ in flashlights................sooner or later its going to make the news and not in a good way