Safest 18650 available

Bazsy

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In the last few days I've been reading a lot about protected cells and safe chemistry but it just won't get clear which solution is the actual safest one if one can give up capacity and don't focus on price per cell.

Reason I'm asking this is that I have small children and will generally want to offer capacity /price for safety.

So question is which 18650s are best on the market right now when it comes to safety of use. I would only ever use these for torches so no more than maybe 10A will ever be needed. Probably as low as 5A. Also I live in the EU so best would be to buy from the EU or county of manufacture directly. I would be glad to get some advice even on sellers.
 

snakyjake

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Safest is the non-rechargeable.
For rechargeable lithium ion, the safest is: Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4)(LFP) battery chemistry.
 

Bazsy

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Safest is the non-rechargeable.
For rechargeable lithium ion, the safest is: Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4)(LFP) battery chemistry.

Thanks,
How would this change if I wanted something that has 3.7V?
 

peter yetman

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The safest Li-ion is the one that you look after well.
Don't buy cheap ones and don't economise on charger.
Don't buy any cells with ***Fire in the name.
You could do worse than looking at HKJ's reviews on cells and chargers.
Here's a link..
http://www.lygte-info.dk/
Also rember that battery protection is there to protect the battery from you not the other way round.
Be sensible with Li-ions and you and yours will be just fine.
P
 

Bazsy

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The safest Li-ion is the one that you look after well.
Don't buy cheap ones and don't economise on charger.
Don't buy any cells with ***Fire in the name.
You could do worse than looking at HKJ's reviews on cells and chargers.
Here's a link..
http://www.lygte-info.dk/
Also rember that battery protection is there to protect the battery from you not the other way round.
Be sensible with Li-ions and you and yours will be just fine.
P

Thanks,

I have 2x Soshine 2800mAh protected that I bought like 7 years ago and used moderately. Those still work with a ****fire charger.

I have ordered 2x Panasonic 18650GA unprotected for a few days ago that I will use in an UV torch and a led torch I already have. Will these cells be safe?

I am now thinking on ordering something with safer chemistry and protection that could be used in a torch that takes multiple cells.

I have also trashed the charger after reading this forum and a Xtar VP4+ dragon is on the way with the post. I think that charger will suffice for safe charging.

So question now is getting some safe protected cells for a multi-cell torch.
 

iamlucky13

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The VP4+ is one of the top-rated chargers. You are well-equipped there.

eu.nkon.nl is one of the European battery vendors I've seen recommended around here. I'm in the US, so I can't vouch for them. From a quick check, however, they do carry Keeppower brand protected cells, which are a good choice. You will also be fine if you buy protected cells from reputable flashlight manufacturers like Olight or Nitecore.

The Panasonic 18650GA is a very good cell. I'd prefer not to put unprotected cells in devices that will be used by kids or others who might not take care to ensure they are never over-discharged. With protected cells, they should stop working with a safe margin above the 2.5V where you should start being concerned, so you'll know they need charging. Protected cells should also prevent bad chargers from overcharging the cells, but that protection should be redundant on good chargers.

Some flashlights also have their own low voltage protection, in which case, unprotected cells are also very low risk.

One more thing to keep in mind is that some torches do not have long enough battery compartments to fit protected batteries, which are a couple mm longer than unprotected batteries. Sometimes the manufacturer will state this, but often times we have to look up reviews to find out if this is the case for a particular light.
 

Gauss163

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The VP4+ is one of the top-rated chargers. You are well-equipped there [...]

But the OP's concern is safety. Indeed, they wrote "I think that charger will suffice for safe charging" (my emphasis). It is worth strong emphasis that unlike laptops and cellphones, there are no standard safety tests for chargers for naked cylindrical Li-ion cells (because naked Li-ion cells are not designed for consumer-level use, e.g. see Sony's strong-worded cease-and-desist letter to a vaping store).

As such, it's the wild wild west when it comes to safety of such Li-ion chargers. We don't have any hard data at all on the safety of any consumer-level charger. No reviewers even attempt to perform such safety tests - probably because it requires too much electronics expertise and, further, such tests are usually destructive.

Prior reports here and elsewhere show that Li-ion chargers manufactured by companies respected in hobbyist forums can have safety issues, e.g. chargers that restart at default (too high) currents after a power failure; chargers that melt down during charging; chargers with poor thermal management, etc.

So if safety is your primary concern, then you will have to resort to your own testing.
 
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Bazsy

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I can accept that nothing will be 100% safe. I usually put my (NiMh) chargers in the middle of the ceramic kitchen-range there the risk is lowest.
With that said I could totally accept shipping from US and paying customs for some orbtronic 18650s with "double protection" if its better than something I get in EU. Then it comes to the so called safe chemistries where I wonder which orbtronic cell would be the best solution? The 3500mAh seems like a best seller but my understanding is that lower capacity (with a modern cell) means higher currents and safer chemistry. Is that so?
 

iamlucky13

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But the OP's concern is safety. Indeed, they wrote "I think that charger will suffice for safe charging" (my emphasis). It is worth strong emphasis that unlike laptops and cellphones, there are no standard safety tests for chargers for naked cylindrical Li-ion cells (because naked Li-ion cells are not designed for consumer-level use, e.g. see Sony's strong-worded cease-and-desist letter to a vaping store).

As such, it's the wild wild west when it comes to safety of such Li-ion chargers. We don't have any hard data at all on the safety of any consumer-level charger. No reviewers even attempt to perform such safety tests - probably because it requires too much electronics expertise and, further, such tests are usually destructive.

Prior reports here and elsewhere show that Li-ion chargers manufactured by companies respected in hobbyist forums can have safety issues, e.g. chargers that restart at default (too high) currents after a power failure; chargers that melt down during charging; chargers with poor thermal management, etc.

So if safety is your primary concern, then you will have to resort to your own testing.

I don't suppose I can argue against any of that. It doesn't seem like any of the chargers I've seen are independently certified (by UL, for example). We do have some related data, such as testing to show whether or not chargers are terminating at an appropriate voltage, which is one of the main concerns I'm aware of, but I grant that this is usually only for single samples, and is only a single condition.

Regardless, to make this useful to the OP, my understanding of your past posts is you don't oppose consumer use of lithium ion batteries, but want to make sure users are well educated. Is there a guide you'd refer them to? Or are you just trying to sway them towards protected cells, which have the circuitry mentioned by Sony in their letter, although not a separate enclosure like a laptop or tool battery would?
 

terjee

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Just to be clear, is this because you have small children in the house, or because the children will be using lights with the batteries?

I read you as having the kids in the house, not using the cells, but just wanting it to be clear.

With that out of the way, take a look at Keeppower 3500mAh protected cells at NKON.nl (Europe obviously). My guess is that those are your best bet. If I recall correctly, both those and the Orbtronics you mentioned are based on the 18650GA, which is a good cell.

They're among the "safer" chemistries, and more or less as good as it gets.

LiFePo4 is an even safer chemistry, but like you already know lands you at a lower voltage.

INR/IMR high drain batteries are also a safe chemistry, but they're not typically found with protection circuits, which you want in a multicell light.

That basically brings you back to the 18650GA, and the two most recommended vendors for protected versions of it are Orbtronic and Keeppower.

One thing to double check before ordering is that the cells are not too thick, long, or has the wrong top. These are button-top, and some lights demand flat-tops. I'd be surprised if this is a problem in a multicell light, but just something to be aware of.
 

Gauss163

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[...] Regardless, to make this useful to the OP, my understanding of your past posts is you don't oppose consumer use of lithium ion batteries, but want to make sure users are well educated.

Yes, one of my primary goals here and on BLF is to help educate the general public on Li-ion battery safety matters so that they can make reasonably informed decisions. This is esp. important now that consumer use of bare Li-ion cells has become much more widespread - percolating into market segments where users may have (far) less technical knowledge than here (e.g. some vapers and hoverboard users). In fact it was this recent rapid expansion of consumer use of bare Li-ion cells (and the consequent dangers it posed) that motivated me to begin posting more on safety matters - with hope that this information would be made available widely via web searches. If my posts helped only one reader from losing an eye or burning a hole in their leg or tongue then I consider my time well spent.

Is there a guide you'd refer them to?

Alas, I'm not aware of any such guide.

Or are you just trying to sway them towards protected cells, which have the circuitry mentioned by Sony in their letter, although not a separate enclosure like a laptop or tool battery would?

Protected cells are not manufactured or endorsed by any of the top-tier cell manufacturers. The protection circuits are added by rewrappers whose competence may vary widely. Here too there are no safety standards. Poor quality protected cells may end up being less safe than nonprotected cells in certain contexts (e.g. the added tab running down the cell increases the surface area where shorts can occur from small metallic objects). It's dificult to say if a protected cell will be more safe than a nonprotected cell without performing tests and knowing more about the intended application context.

Further, it's not only the enclosure that differentiates protected cells from laptop batteries. Besides this extra mechanical protection from the case, laptop batteries also have much more extensive electrical protection, e.g. multiple levels of redundant failsafe protection (tested to meet international safety standards using rigorous methods, e.g. fault tree analysis, FMEA, etc, e.g. see here)
 
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Bazsy

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Just to be clear, is this because you have small children in the house, or because the children will be using lights with the batteries?

I read you as having the kids in the house, not using the cells, but just wanting it to be clear.

With that out of the way, take a look at Keeppower 3500mAh protected cells at NKON.nl (Europe obviously). My guess is that those are your best bet. If I recall correctly, both those and the Orbtronics you mentioned are based on the 18650GA, which is a good cell.

They're among the "safer" chemistries, and more or less as good as it gets.

LiFePo4 is an even safer chemistry, but like you already know lands you at a lower voltage.

INR/IMR high drain batteries are also a safe chemistry, but they're not typically found with protection circuits, which you want in a multicell light.

That basically brings you back to the 18650GA, and the two most recommended vendors for protected versions of it are Orbtronic and Keeppower.

One thing to double check before ordering is that the cells are not too thick, long, or has the wrong top. These are button-top, and some lights demand flat-tops. I'd be surprised if this is a problem in a multicell light, but just something to be aware of.

You are right with your assumption that the children will not use the lights with batteries and won't even have access to the batteries. Issues I want to avoid is fumes and fire during charging or storage.

I guess I will just go with the protected batteries you have recommended and keep an eye on the market for cells with higher safety as development is going forward.
 

Bazsy

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Yes, one of my primary goals here and on BLF is to help educate the general public on Li-ion battery safety matters so that they can make reasonably informed decisions. This is esp. important now that consumer use of bare Li-ion cells has become much more widespread - percolating into market segments where users may have (far) less technical knowledge than here (e.g. some vapers and hoverboard users). In fact it was this recent rapid rapid expansion of consumer use of bare Li-ion cells (and the consequent dangers it posed) that motivated me to begin posting more on safety matters - with hope that this information would be made available widely via web searches. If my posts helped only one reader from losing an eye or burning a hole in their leg or tongue then I consider my time well spent.



Alas, I'm not aware of any such guide.



Protected cells are not manufactured or endorsed by any of the top-tier cell manufacturers. The protection circuits are added by rewrappers whose competence may vary widely. Here too there are no safety standards. Poor quality protected cells may end up being less safe than nonprotected cells in certain contexts (e.g. the added tab running down the cell increases the surface area where shorts can occur from small metallic objects). It's dificult to say if a protected cell will be more safe than a nonprotected cell without performing tests and knowing more about the intended application context.

Further, it's not only the enclosure that differentiates protected cells from laptop batteries. Besides this extra mechanical protection from the case, laptop batteries also have much more extensive electrical protection, e.g. multiple levels of redundant failsafe protection (tested to meet international safety standards using rigorous methods, e.g. fault tree analysis, FMEA, etc, e.g. see here)

Thank you for your engagement with safety. I am actually a safety engineer and one of the reasons I started this topic is that I always want the safest solution even with some tradeoffs like price. Now I'm learning about Lithium cells to get up to date :)

I just want to ask what you would use if you were me?
 

Gauss163

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Thank you for your engagement with safety. I am actually a safety engineer and one of the reasons I started this topic is that I always want the safest solution even with some tradeoffs like price. Now I'm learning about Lithium cells to get up to date :)

I just want to ask what you would use if you were me?

My context is very different so I've never had to research such matters. Unfortunately I doubt there is much data (publicly) available to help you perform such comparisons. If you choose recent cells from top-tier manufacturers and always follow general safety guidelines (see here for a start) then you will at least avoid the rookie errors that are the source of many mishaps.
 

peter yetman

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I understand that the Gold Standard in cells is AW. Oveready recommend them and that's good enough for me. However they aren't easy to find this side of the Pond.
I'm very happy with AWT (no relation) cells from ecoluxshopdirect.co.uk.
For chargers I use XTAR, they get reasonable results for HJK and they work for me.
At the end of the day, if you buy from a recommended dealer, you're doing as much as you can.
Read up on the safety stuff,take care and buy the best that you can afford.
P
 

stephenk

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I understand that the Gold Standard in cells is AW. Oveready recommend them and that's good enough for me. However they aren't easy to find this side of the Pond.
I'm very happy with AWT (no relation) cells from ecoluxshopdirect.co.uk.
For chargers I use XTAR, they get reasonable results for HJK and they work for me.
At the end of the day, if you buy from a recommended dealer, you're doing as much as you can.
Read up on the safety stuff,take care and buy the best that you can afford.
P
AW was the Gold Standard half a decade ago. Things have moved on since then.

I would advise using decent protected re-wrap of, or unprotected Panasonic NCR18650GA batteries. The heat resistant layer is an additional safety feature.
 

Bazsy

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I have now ordered 4x Orbtronic 3500mAh (which is a Panasonic NCR18650GA with protection). The price was almost the same as 4x keepower protected (with the same panasonic cell) so I decided that I like the Seiko protection circuit better :)
Thing is, I already ordered 2x Panasonic NCR18650GA unprotected before posting here and now wonder what I should do with those? Are those safe to use with 1x18650 LED lights?

What is it that actually can be unsafe? Charging I understand and I guess the XTAR Dragon I have is the safest solution for that. Using with larger load then rated can be dangerous but a LED light will not draw more than 10A I guess.
Is there any dangers connected to incidentally drain the batteries under 2.5V or will they just loose capacity then?
 

Gauss163

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[...] I guess the XTAR Dragon I have is the safest solution for that [...] Is there any dangers connected to incidentally drain the batteries under 2.5V or will they just loose capacity then?

Again, there is no rigorous safety data available for any consumer-level charger, so there is little logical basis to conclude that any brand/model is safer than another.

One major problem with draining Li-ion batteries too low is that copper can plate out and later lead to the formation of dendrites in subsequent cycling - which can eventually grow large enough to pierce the separator and lead to internal shorts and venting (possibly with flame). Note that internal shorts cannot be prevented by protection circuits since they occur internally. Many recent cells have improvements to help coltrol internal shorts, e.g. ceramic-based separators (e.g. Panasonic's HRL), but older cells (e.g. laptop pulls) and generic cells may lack these safety improvements, so be more cautious with them.
 
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peter yetman

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Thing is, I already ordered 2x Panasonic NCR18650GA unprotected before posting here and now wonder what I should do with those? Are those safe to use with 1x18650 LED lights?
As long as you are careful not to overdischarge them, or run them in a light with its own protection.
P
 

terjee

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Thing is, I already ordered 2x Panasonic NCR18650GA unprotected before posting here and now wonder what I should do with those? Are those safe to use with 1x18650 LED lights?

What is it that actually can be unsafe? Charging I understand and I guess the XTAR Dragon I have is the safest solution for that. Using with larger load then rated can be dangerous but a LED light will not draw more than 10A I guess.
Is there any dangers connected to incidentally drain the batteries under 2.5V or will they just loose capacity then?

I'm always a bit uncomfortable about calling 18650s "safe". They're safe in the sense that gasoline is safe, accidents are rare when properly handled.

When it comes to protected vs. unprotected, one perspective is that inside a high quality flashlight, it may not matter too much if a protection (undervoltage for example) physically sits in the light or the battery. Some would argue that having both offers redundancy, others would argue that there are more places that can fail. Both have a point.

At the end of the day, what matters most (IMHO anyway) is that it's very rare for a quality 18650, in a quality single-cell light to go bad. Most accidents happen when the batteries are "naked", outside both light and other protection.

Undervoltage is a concern, if too discharged for a while, the cells can become dangerous more easily, but a lot of lights have undervoltage protection, which will help you out quite a bit.

Other than physical protection of batteries at all times, keeping track of charge states can be a good way to help ensure safety. If you find yourself unsure of the voltage of a cell that's been living on a shelf for quite some time, you can always measure the voltage before it goes into the charger.
 
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