So right now (end of 2017) are there any LED headlights that beat HID?

zespectre

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I realize this is a somewhat subjective question since it would be hard to really decide what "beat" means in this case, but right now (end of 2017) are there any LED headlights that beat HID?

Moderator Edit: Removed Rule 11 violation

But

On another site there is a fairly hot debate running with a couple of die-hard HID guys absolutely insisting that HID is IT and anyone running LED is an idiot (yes it's down to that level on their end).

So attitudes aside I still would like real information, if HID is actually better then so be it, but I want some facts not a bunch of hot-headed chest thumping.
so what I'm looking for is some nuanced, scientific, and un-biased information on the matter as we sit right now (going into 2018).
 
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SubLGT

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There are probably some OEM LED headlights ( e.g. on some BMW, Audi and Mercedes vehicles) that are superior to OEM HID headlights.
 
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Alaric Darconville

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Get those toy bulbs out of your headlamps, zespectre. You're not doing yourself or any other drivers any favors with those toys installed.

HID is a transitional technology and will fade into oblivion, leaving halogen and LED to continue. Halogen, because of the incredible installed base already, the economy of scale of manufacture, and the simplicity which works out well for fleet owners.

HID's ballasts mean the potential for EMI, which can wreak havoc on other car systems. The additional components mean extra weight. The complexity of the systems in general vs. halogen or LED puts them at a disadvantage.

Remember, in 2014, Toyota put LED low beams, not HID, in the Corolla. That should hint at how LED is pulling ahead of HID.
 

jaycee88

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I remember when the only LED's in my home were in my alarm clock and behind the Caps Lock key on my keyboard. Now, they're in my computer screens, mobile devices, and lighting up my house. Outside, they're in street lights, billboards and signage of all types. Department stores are replacing their fluorescent tube lights with rows of LED's. All of the newer buses use LED's for their exterior and interior lighting. Even newer budget motorcycles are starting to come with LED headlights as standard.

LED's are ubiquitous these days. This plus the fact that they're semiconductors means they're constantly improving in terms of efficiency and cost. See Haitz's law.

There's no such impetus behind HID's. It won't be too long before they'll go the way of the floppy disk, at least for automotive applications. Something like adaptive beams would not be possible with HID's.
 
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-Virgil-

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I realize this is a somewhat subjective question

No, it really is not. There are plenty of subjective (at best) opinions on what the answer is, but those are useless (at best). The actual answer is yes, there are LED headlamps with objectively better performance than HID headlamps.

On another site there is a fairly hot debate running with a couple of die-hard HID guys absolutely insisting that HID is IT and anyone running LED is an idiot (yes it's down to that level on their end).

1. That is a good indication of the (lack of) worth or value to their discussion in terms of time you waste on it

2. In most cases there is no legitimate choice between "running LED" and "running HID". A very small number of vehicles offer an option between HID and LED headlamps, or had HIDs in a previous model year and now have LEDs, and there are legitimate HID and LED options in the 7-inch round sealed beam form factor, but other than that the only way to choose between "running LED" and "running HID" is to choose between an "HID kit" and an "LED kit", both of which are equally as unsafe, illegitimate, and illegal, therefore equally as pointless to discuss.

HID is basically dead. Automakers do not plan for standard or optional HID headlamps any more. Basic equipment is halogen (and that market share is slipping fast); everything else is LED.
 

Magio

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The actual answer is yes, there are LED headlamps with objectively better performance than HID headlamps.
I may have misunderstood his question but I thought he was asking are there any LED headlamps than are better than the best of HID headlamps.

On another note, from the drivers seat, I have seen some halogen headlights that, on highbeam, seemed to have offered far greater performance than any HID or LED headlamp that I have driven with. But I do wonder if you take the best of halogen( I would assume that would be HIR bulbs), and compared those with the best LED headlamps, and compared those with the best HID headlamps, which ones would come out on top overall, which ones would be in the middle, and which ones would be the worst. Anybody have any data they would like to offer?
 

Alaric Darconville

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But I do wonder if you take the best of halogen( I would assume that would be HIR bulbs), and compared those with the best LED headlamps, and compared those with the best HID headlamps, which ones would come out on top overall, which ones would be in the middle, and which ones would be the worst. Anybody have any data they would like to offer?

The best LAMP beats the worst one, the ones in the middle are in the middle, etc. However, the HIR2 has a luminance of 30 Mcd/m2[/2], in 2006 we saw LEDs with luminances of 38 Mcd/m2​-- LEDs are outstripping halogen, even HIR, in luminance alone. Granted, source lumens mean nothing if the beam isn't controlled precisely, so that is why we can have good halogen lamps and not-as-good LED lamps.​
 

fastgun

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The 2018 Rolls Royce Wraith is equipped with HID. At least the lower level ones priced around $340,000.
 

DenCon

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In-my-humble-opinion:
With the myriad nuanced design differences between vehicles, even if you compare projector-projector, etc, and the DOT "standards" to which they are designed/manufactured (don't even get me started on the so-called "DOT-compliant" Chinese aftermarket), halogen is still the runaway favorite light source. Even if we're fortunate to see true replacement LED bulbs, those which replicate halogen photometrics perfectly, we'll all be driving modern-for-the-day vehicles with headlights designed (at inception) with LED light sources by then. As halogen-lighted vehicles die out, LED-lighted new vehicles will backfill, until all that are left are the modern LED-native vehicles and the vintage halogen vehicles.


Moderator edit
HID/LED "kits" are unrelated to this discussion.

--Alaric D
 
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-Virgil-

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I may have misunderstood his question but I thought he was asking are there any LED headlamps than are better than the best of HID headlamps.

That's the only question of this type worth discussing. The answer is yes. I suspect he might have had "HID kits" and "LED kits" in mind, though, given the source of his "information".

I have seen some halogen headlights that, on highbeam, seemed to have offered far greater performance than any HID or LED headlamp that I have driven with. But I do wonder if you take the best of halogen( I would assume that would be HIR bulbs), and compared those with the best LED headlamps, and compared those with the best HID headlamps, which ones would come out on top overall, which ones would be in the middle, and which ones would be the worst. Anybody have any data they would like to offer?

This is where it gets pretty complicated. An HID headlamp will tend to have more light within the beam than a halogen headlamp (even a halogen headlamp with a high-flux bulb like H9 or HIR1). But that doesn't necessarily mean you can see a longer distance; that's determined by how the light is distributed. Engineers can concentrate on maximum seeing distance, on maximum spread coverage, or somewhere in between. And where the spread light is makes a big difference, too, because if you have a lot of foreground light you need a lot higher intensity in the hot spot for any given seeing distance. HIDs are at a disadvantage here because the HID low beam pretty much has to stay lit when the high beams are on, and HID low beams usually produce a LOT of foreground light. LED headlamps' performance ranges from at/below halogen levels to at/above HID levels, whatever metric we might use to define "performance".
 

Sadden

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My question is which legitimate oem or equivalent HID/LED/Halogen offers the furtherest seeing distance, and what is that distance?
 

SubLGT

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Farthest seeing distance? Possibly the laser pumped phosphor high beams on some Audi and BMW vehicles.
 

-Virgil-

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My question is which legitimate oem or equivalent HID/LED/Halogen offers the furtherest seeing distance, and what is that distance?

The problem with this question is, it swings too far from one extreme ("What's the best headlamp?" too broad to be answerable) to the other (too narrow). Michael Hamm's (Audi) research work over the last couple of years has clearly shown what Flannagan and Sivak (UMTRI) got a first-crack at many years ago: Aim, not headlamp tech, is the top factor in how far you can see; and vehicle/road dynamics mean even a perfectly aimed headlamp is pointed where the driver needs it/where it's assumed to be pointed less than 10% of the time. So we could measure the seeing distance provided by a bunch of cars' properly aimed headlamps on a static basis, but it wouldn't let us say "THERE, that car right there, that one gives the driver the longest seeing distance" because as soon as the car is shifted into Drive and taken out on actual roads...out the window goes that measurement.

The practical answer to the question is "ADB".
 

Magio

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I know we tend to think farther straight ahead seeing distances are better than shorter straight ahead seeing distances but, beyond a point it really does seem to get unnessesary. Assuming you have a high lumenence headlight I think I would prefer that some of the light be spread around and have a much wider beam for curves and spotting critters off the road, than having two hot-spot punching half a mile down the road. Actually uncomfortablely narrow beams has been one of my biggest complaints about halogen headlights and why I prefer higher brightness LED and HID headlights.

And that's why I agree with Virgil. ADB would give you long range if you driving on the freeway and the wider beams for slower back country roads where you could benefit immensely from wider beams.

Hope that came out legible. Typed it on my phone
 

-Virgil-

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Yep, "Which is the best headlamp?" can only really be answered after we have the answer to another question: "Where's the person or thing you don't want to hit?"
 

Hamilton Felix

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LOL! That's what it comes down to, seeing the stuff you don't want to hit.

I've gotten to where I worry a lot less about what's making the light than I do about where it puts the light.
 

Hilldweller

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When I measured LUX at 100 meters on a bunch of 7" round headlights (high beams), the Hella 90mm HID kicked every butt. Also won the LUX war at 50 meters on low beam.
This was before the release of the JW Speaker 8700J2 though. So I guess I gotta do it again.

Like Virgil said, a good lamp beats a bad lamp. But sometimes the criteria changes for what "good" means.
 

Sadden

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When I measured LUX at 100 meters on a bunch of 7" round headlights (high beams), the Hella 90mm HID kicked every butt. Also won the LUX war at 50 meters on low beam.
This was before the release of the JW Speaker 8700J2 though. So I guess I gotta do it again.

Like Virgil said, a good lamp beats a bad lamp. But sometimes the criteria changes for what "good" means.

You have a link too that shootout?
 

Hilldweller

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You have a link too that shootout?
It's an antique now, photobucket ate my pictures.

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f96/headlight-shootout-1166827/

I don't think I even posted the results from the HID Hellas since we installed them on an FJ60 (heresy!!!). But they were remarkable. Even the H9 in the Hella 90mm projector destroyed all of the LED & halogen competition.
Never tried the Hella LED 90mm though. That would be interesting.
Hella never volunteered lamps for testing, btw. We bought them --- that's why we didn't do the LED units. Pricey. SMS did give Robbie a nice discount for the HID version though.
 

John_Galt

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You definitely need to redo that shootout, Hilldweller. Its probably the best Ive come across on the web, by far!

There's some discussion about the lack of a definition for "best." Virgil, you have access to a lot of photometric testing, why don't you give us a run down between a few contenders for maximal beam distance in bith low and high beam, and maximal beam width, for low and high beam, and each lamps intensities at ow and high?

It's been stated for years and years that Hella's 90mm bixenon is the top dog. Is anything in the same format coming close for either low beam or high beam? How does the halogen version stack up?

I've also seen the promotion for Hellas 60mm halogen projectors. How do those compare to the current crop of offerings, and what are their beam intensitites,compared to some other offerings?
 
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