Free Discussion: HDS EDC Executive Pass Around Light

spaceminions

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I made this thread because as peter yetman put it, "Hogo"s thread, Hogo's rules.
If you don't like it start your own thread."

This is the thread: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?444707-HDS-EDC-Executive-Pass-Around

The purpose is to allow discussion about any aspect of the light from that thread or perhaps even about similar lights which are deletable offenses on the original thread. For instance, the emitter you might prefer the light to use. Personally, I like the idea of good CRI and a neutral-warm floody beam in a somewhat lower brightness light like this one. So I'd try a 219c 4000k r9050 probably, unless I wanted to do some more work and use a e21a setup maybe, since that can do r9080 and I'm told it looks pretty good.

This is a picture of what was used, however.
26413128457_260f7dd263_c.jpg

The one on the right, I'm sold, looks like a zebralight sc53 of some description. The left one is the one in question, and has an xpg, oddly. Cool white, too, I believe.


if we're not going to discuss the light it emits, what are we here for? Just convincing ourselves that it doesn't matter what kind of led or how bright it is? I could sort of understand if the reason the emitter doesn't matter is that it will be changed later, of course. But I think it's very much an important part of every light what kind of emitter is used- or, more specifically, the properties of that emitter. It's the most integral part of the light: the way to turn electrical energy into light.
 
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mcfarlie6996

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Thanks Space. Although I'm not sure of the intent, I feel like if you're passing around a $200+ product of yours that you built, you'd want it to be the best it can be in every aspect. So why skimp out on the emitter? If anything, I'm amazed that he had an Cool White XP-G emitter on hand. I'd imagine people stopped buying those since around 2012 when the updated XP-G2 came out, which there's even better options now. But aside from that, he had said in his rules that people can post pictures and write reviews of it and that the only thing he doesn't want people doing is testing the lumens output. So why get upset when others want to talk about what emitter it's using? The emitter is a very important feature of a light. I'm not a tint snob but I much prefer 4000-5000K over a Cool White emitter. And obviously an outdated emitter would be a turn off as well. Have to keep up with the times. Don't get me wrong, I've heard nothing but good things about HDS, just don't see why he'd put a 4 cylinder engine in a Corvette body/frame.
 

Zak

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I'm a tint snob and I consider the emitter pretty central to what a flashlight is. Everything else is there to support the emitter doing its job. Of course, a flashlight can have a great emitter and still be bad, but an otherwise-good light with a bad emitter is always a bad light. It's a good thing emitter swaps aren't terribly hard in most lights.

Anyway, handing a light with a clear lens to a bunch of flashlight geeks and telling them the emitter is a secret just isn't going to work. Most of us have seen an XP-G before and would have a hard time not identifying it on sight. I'm wondering if the point of this passaround is to show people that an old emitter with relatively low output can still be a good light. Despite what I wrote above about the emitter being central, I agree; high output is a little overrated, and some older emitters are capable of nice light quality. I'm not sure the XP-G is one of them, but a moderately driven 219A for example can make for a fine light.
 

Ozythemandias

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With all the love in my heart, are you guys serious?

A company decides to trust a random group of people and send out a light for you to test drive, and you're complaining about the choice of emitter in that light?

Maybe he chose it to bias it towards throw, maybe it was a an extra old light he had hanging around, who cares?

Whether it was a smart business decision or not, is Henry's business. If you try the lights and decide its not for you due to the emitter than so be it. That was Henry's risk. If you try it and decide you don't like the UI or the light or the fact it's not a rotary is Henry's risk too.

No offense but this thread is coming off as sorta entitled. If you want to discuss the drawbacks of XPG sure, but to complain why Henry made his decision to put that emitter in a pass around is a bit unbecoming.

Don't forget the whole game aspect. This pass around also has the side of being a test of sorts, the goal or hopeful result of which only Hogo and Henry are privy to. Perhaps the emitter is part of the game
 

Zak

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I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm just talking about the attempt to make a secret of the emitter. My argument is not that it's bad​ to do so, but that it's impossible.
 

mcfarlie6996

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Maybe he chose it to bias it towards throw, maybe it was a an extra old light he had hanging around, who cares?

Why isn't it just as important to you though as the rest of the light? Does the emitter type/tint not matter to you when purchasing lights? How about explaining to me the point of the pass around then?
 

spaceminions

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With all the love in my heart, are you guys serious?

A company decides to trust a random group of people and send out a light for you to test drive, and you're complaining about the choice of emitter in that light?

Maybe he chose it to bias it towards throw, maybe it was a an extra old light he had hanging around, who cares?

Whether it was a smart business decision or not, is Henry's business. If you try the lights and decide its not for you due to the emitter than so be it. That was Henry's risk. If you try it and decide you don't like the UI or the light or the fact it's not a rotary is Henry's risk too.

No offense but this thread is coming off as sorta entitled. If you want to discuss the drawbacks of XPG sure, but to complain why Henry made his decision to put that emitter in a pass around is a bit unbecoming.

Don't forget the whole game aspect. This pass around also has the side of being a test of sorts, the goal or hopeful result of which only Hogo and Henry are privy to. Perhaps the emitter is part of the game

Nah, I think it's really cool they're doing it, I just hope people don't get turned off by the emitter and don't like the censored discussion about light output and about the quality of the light output. It doesn't matter whose risk it is, because in the end I feel like we ought to be able to check each other. I don't think anyone should be free from questioning, although rude criticism is rude. But more than anything I want free discussion, and that's why I actually made this post. IMO it's very understandable to not have the final emitter in there yet; it's even understandable to pick something that's obviously not going to be used. It's not understandable to keep people from talking about what they would like to use instead, or about what the xpg lacks that makes it a bad choice for either actual production or just giving people a taste of a line of lights. It's very vaguely like test driving a v6 mustang from 2005 and hoping the modern v8 will be everything you want, instead of trying a new one.
 

archimedes

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I made this thread because as peter yetman put it, "Hogo"s thread, Hogo's rules.
If you don't like it start your own thread."

This is the thread: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?444707-HDS-EDC-Executive-Pass-Around

The purpose is to allow discussion about any aspect of the light from that thread or perhaps even about similar lights which are deletable offenses on the original thread. For instance, the emitter you might prefer the light to use. Personally, I like the idea of good CRI and a neutral-warm floody beam in a somewhat lower brightness light like this one. So I'd try a 219c 4000k r9050 probably, unless I wanted to do some more work and use a e21a setup maybe, since that can do r9080 and I'm told it looks pretty good.

This is a picture of what was used, however.
26413128457_260f7dd263_c.jpg

The one on the right, I'm sold, looks like a zebralight sc53 of some description. The left one is the one in question, and has an xpg, oddly. Cool white, too, I believe.


if we're not going to discuss the light it emits, what are we here for? Just convincing ourselves that it doesn't matter what kind of led or how bright it is? I could sort of understand if the reason the emitter doesn't matter is that it will be changed later, of course. But I think it's very much an important part of every light what kind of emitter is used- or, more specifically, the properties of that emitter. It's the most integral part of the light: the way to turn electrical energy into light.

Wow.

I'm not really sure what to say ... having just come from the FREE passaround thread, sponsored by Hogo and HDS, to provide CPF members a very kind opportunity to try and experience one of their premium products.

The maker seemed to have a few reasonable requests, including to not reveal the exact measured tint / output / emitter details, for the first ten participants

At max ten days each, that is what, a hundred days total ? So, a couple of months ?

The reasoning, not that it isn't obvious, is to avoid biasing or preconceived notions about the technical specs ... until after having a chance to try it out for oneself.

Now, of course, there are endless threads and posts about HDS elsewhere here. Including fierce and contentious debates about emitters, tints, price, value, and every other thing HDS.

But, please, for this passaround, they ask to hold off on this. For ten people. For a few months. In that one single thread.

I don't know, if I was Hogo, I think I'd just cancel the rest of the passaround and say that this is why we can't have nice things :shakehead

Question to the OP here ... is the photo in this post above, your own, or used with permission ?
 

Ozythemandias

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Why isn't it just as important to you though as the rest of the light? Does the emitter type/tint not matter to you when purchasing lights? How about explaining to me the point of the pass around then?

Of course it's important to me. I sold at least one HDS because I didnt like the tint. But this passaround is a game, the end result of which we're still in the dark. There has been many discussions on the HDS thread about Henry's choice of emitters in production lights, Henry himself has often responded and explained his thought processes. This is different. The light is not for sale. It is a game. One of the rules of which is do not discuss the emitter. To go and make a thread with the specific purpose fo discussing and criticizing the emitter choice is uncalled for.


Nah, I think it's really cool they're doing it, I just hope people don't get turned off by the emitter and don't like the censored discussion about light output and about the quality of the light output. It doesn't matter whose risk it is, because in the end I feel like we ought to be able to check each other. I don't think anyone should be free from questioning, although rude criticism is rude. But more than anything I want free discussion, and that's why I actually made this post. IMO it's very understandable to not have the final emitter in there yet; it's even understandable to pick something that's obviously not going to be used. It's not understandable to keep people from talking about what they would like to use instead, or about what the xpg lacks that makes it a bad choice for either actual production or just giving people a taste of a line of lights. It's very vaguely like test driving a v6 mustang from 2005 and hoping the modern v8 will be everything you want, instead of trying a new one.

What isn't being taken into account here is that the thread in question is a thread speficially for the free giveaway. If the giveaway hosts decide to have a game and make up their own rules, they have every right to enforce them without justification.

Criticizing said rules is in effect judging whether the game he invented is a smart business decision. I can understand why he doesnt want that in his forum and personally I feel it is out of place. Should I start posting critical analysis's of Muyshondt's copywriting techniques or Olight's social influencing marketing strategies?
 
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Zak

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Should I start posting critical analysis's of Muyshondt's copywriting techniques or Olight's social influencing marketing strategies?

Perhaps, but maybe not in a sub-forum they effectively own.

I think it would probably work better for running a passaround as a game with an undisclosed objective to keep any rules about restricted topics of discussion out of the original post and only disclose them to participants. This is the internet; telling a broad audience not to talk about something is always going to have the opposite effect. A small group that's actually getting something out of it will usually cooperate.
 

spaceminions

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Wow.

I'm not really sure what to say ... having just come from the FREE passaround thread, sponsored by Hogo and HDS, to provide CPF members a very kind opportunity to try and experience one of their premium products.

The maker seemed to have a few reasonable requests, including to not reveal the exact measured tint / output / emitter details, for the first ten participants

At max ten days each, that is what, a hundred days total ? So, a couple of months ?

The reasoning, not that it isn't obvious, is to avoid biasing or preconceived notions about the technical specs ... until after having a chance to try it out for oneself.

Now, of course, there are endless threads and posts about HDS elsewhere here. Including fierce and contentious debates about emitters, tints, price, value, and every other thing HDS.

But, please, for this passaround, they ask to hold off on this. For ten people. For a few months. In that one single thread.

I don't know, if I was Hogo, I think I'd just cancel the rest of the passaround and say that this is why we can't have nice things :shakehead

Question to the OP here ... is the photo in this post above, your own, or used with permission ?

Nice speech. I could identify pathos/logos/ethos if I still remembered that stuff. But this isn't meant to be against their very nice passaround in any way. It's merely meant for those of us who aren't worried about biasing ourselves by knowing the technical specs, whether because we've experienced enough lights to know what we like, or because we plan to allow others to participate and just look at their measurements and opinions once they become available. It's for those of us who will always seek out a place to continue discussing anything we feel worth discussing, without any bad feelings meant. The only reason it's here is just because there should be a place for it since there is a demand for it. Not everything can be done over A tin can with string attached after all. I have no idea why a separate thread is not a good place to discuss such things; I was told to make one rather than disturbing them so I did. I assumed correctly that people would have opinions to share in a place they don't cause any trouble. The picture was shared freely without conditions by an tin can with string attached user; I have no way to be sure where it came from before that time, though I believe it may be possible to discover an original version and at such time I will be happy to do as the creator of the image wishes.
 
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Zak

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Unrelated to the passaround, an E21A would be an awesome fit for an HDS. It's very happy making 200-300 lumens, has spectacular color quality (in R9080) and throws quite well relative to its output.
 

archimedes

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Nice speech. I could identify pathos/logos/ethos if I still remembered that stuff. But this isn't meant to be against their very nice passaround in any way. It's merely meant for those of us who aren't worried about biasing ourselves by knowing the technical specs, whether because we've experienced enough lights to know what we like, or because we plan to allow others to participate and just look at their measurements and opinions once they become available. It's for those of us who will always seek out a place to continue discussing anything we feel worth discussing, without any bad feelings meant. The only reason it's here is just because there should be a place for it since there is a demand for it. Not everything can be done over IRC after all. I have no idea why a separate thread is not a good place to discuss such things; I was told to make one rather than disturbing them so I did. I assumed correctly that people would have opinions to share in a place they don't cause any trouble. The picture was shared freely without conditions by an irccloud user; I have no way to be sure where it came from before that time, though I believe it may be possible to discover an original version and at such time I will be happy to do as the creator of the image wishes.

Ummm ... the same reason that they try to avoid "spoilers" in new movie reviews, perhaps ?

Is there a proper time and proper place for these discussions ?

If I ask my friends not to tell me the results of "the big game last night I recorded to watch later today" , and they start discussing the "incredible last second upset" before I have a chance to watch it, should I be upset with them ? It doesn't change the outcome one bit, and it is certainly an interesting topic worthy of discussion.
 

Zak

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I don't think the "spoiler" theory works for the emitter type unless the user is very careful not to look at the emitter. It might with regard to sharing measurements of the output, but most people interested in HDS lights know the outputs are typically 200-300 lumens.
 

Hogokansatsukan

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Actually, this is MY light. It was one that resided in my bug out bag. I recalibrated it, put in the latest firmware, and picked up some packaging, and sent it off on it's merry way. Everything about it is current production except the emitter. You couldn't get a light with this emitter currently from HDS if you wanted to. I guess I'm just cheap and didn't want to buy a new light to pass around to people I don't know. My other personal lights either have the same emitter, or I have a High Noon 5700k and 3 O'Clock high 5000K, neither of which I am going to send on their way to people I do not know. The thought was that if this goes well, then HDS will supply a Rotary for another pass around.

This all started because Gurdygurds wanted to try an Executive and expressed that desire in another thread, and I wanted to help make that happen for him, and thought since the light was going on a trip, why not let others try it out as well. My God! This didn't start as a bunch of marketing people sitting around trying to figure out how to sell more lights... during a production delay where they aren't even shipping out the door!
.
Now it is true, I could have calibrated it to overdrive the LED and give more output than that emitter normally did, or I could have calibrated it to run far under what the LED is capable of. There are several LED options available right now, including a group buy for 4 different color temperatures which is exactly why the emitter in this pass around is unimportant.

The build, the feel, the UI, the programming, the ruggedness... that is the heart of the light, not the emitter which already has several options available. If you don't understand that, you don't understand HDS lights. They aren't about chasing lumens. Never have been and never will be. I thought it would be fun (yes, a game) for people who are actually getting the light in hand, to guess the output. After Gurdygurds stated he sent it to the next person on the list, I sent him a PM telling him what the output is... and told him to keep it a secret.

The emitter doesn't mean crap in this. That can be changed, and is changed and updated, and group buys done for specific emiiters. Anyone can take XXX emitter and throw it into a crappy light. Flashlight manufacturers don't built emitters, they build flashlights.

It is not a 4 cylinder engine in a Corvette frame, it's an M1 Abrams but firing white phosphorus rounds instead of high explosive rounds. Darn easy to load a different round down the tube.

As I put in my tag line "I'm not Henry", and the things I do on here haven't changed in the 12 years I've been on CPF... except perhaps for being a bit more cynical.

It would seem there are some newbies here that think I'm Henry. I'm not. Shall I say it again? I'm not Henry. If I were to design a light, it would consist of a stick, rag, oil, and a match... sounds like a neat limited HDS run. Hogo's Monster Chaser. I doubt Henry would let me put it in the integrating sphere though to check output and throw would depend upon the strength of the users arm.
 

Hogokansatsukan

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I don't think the "spoiler" theory works for the emitter type unless the user is very careful not to look at the emitter. It might with regard to sharing measurements of the output, but most people interested in HDS lights know the outputs are typically 200-300 lumens.

And this light was changed to not have "typical" HDS output.
 

bykfixer

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Really?

C'mon people. It's a passaround. Nothing more, nothing less. If somebody with an axe to grind jumps in and shows bad manners, shame on that person.
This thread is a great place to discuss the XPG in general. No holds bar'd (within CPF rules that is).

I did a passaround once with a purpose of feedback. Some comments were complimentary, some were not. Mission accomplished.

Now my 2 cents is the XPG period was the pinacle of LED lighting tools. Things have evolved both good and bad, but when I see some still using the XPG, personally I'm pleased with that decision. It was bright and durable and with proper engineering had/has a great beam.
 

Zak

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I think the rules for the passaround just came across as bizarre to some people, and they wanted to talk about that. It also wasn't clear to me in the original post that the output was adjusted, which does make this more interesting.

Anyway, I've never used an HDS and therefore don't have real strong opinions about them. They're a little out of my usual price range.
 

archimedes

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I don't think the "spoiler" theory works for the emitter type unless the user is very careful not to look at the emitter. It might with regard to sharing measurements of the output, but most people interested in HDS lights know the outputs are typically 200-300 lumens.

I think that most of us on CPF who can easily and instantly identify common emitters are already reasonably familiar with HDS, and thus may not be as likely to be participating in such a passaround.

Or if we were, we might look at the emitter ( or might not, if wanting to "play that game" ) , but could well hold off from posting this and discussing it for a while as requested, until others less familiar had an opportunity to try it out.

It is all water under the bridge now, and I don't intend to belabor the point further, as we are well past any point of diminishing returns from this topic.
 
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