HDS Natural HA

Would you buy an HDS in natural HA?

  • Heckin' yeah!

    Votes: 45 66.2%
  • Yes, but only if the colors match

    Votes: 15 22.1%
  • No. Paint it Black!

    Votes: 8 11.8%

  • Total voters
    68

moltenmag

Enlightened
Joined
May 31, 2017
Messages
581
Continued from http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...000k-3500k-and-4000k-LAST-HDS-GROUP-BUY/page3

I don't know if it would be possible but I think it'd be super cool to have a limited run or group buy for an HDS with the old natural HA finish. I'd be willing to sign a waiver saying I'll never complain about mismatched ano on penalty of excommunication or something.

Anybody else?

I totally agree with this. I love the old HA finish on my Surefire LX2 and HDS EDC Ultimate. I actually like the mismatched anodization. It reminds me of the ScarH rifle. It adds character!

Already brought this up in the HDS thread though and Hogo said it was a no-go. Maybe if enough people agree we can change his and Henry's minds! Bring back the old HAIII!!!!!
 

Random Dan

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jun 30, 2012
Messages
1,371
I'm guessing for a group buy we'd need to have at least enough buyers for an entire anodization batch to be done without dye, but I don't know the size of those batches.
 

Hogokansatsukan

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Aug 14, 2006
Messages
5,243
Location
Tucson
We have looked into it, but being somewhat of a perfectionist (read anal retentive) getting the parts to match as closely as possible, we would need to make sure all the parts are first machined from the exact same bar stock, then those parts would need to be assembled in such a way that each light shell (head, body, tail cap) are all together in the tank. Would be the only way of getting them close (spoke to more than a few anodizers about this). This all being the case, if it were done, would certainly be a limited run and the cost would be higher because of the added labor.
 

neutralwhite

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 18, 2012
Messages
3,202
Location
London Heathrow
sounds good Hogo.

We have looked into it, but being somewhat of a perfectionist (read anal retentive) getting the parts to match as closely as possible, we would need to make sure all the parts are first machined from the exact same bar stock, then those parts would need to be assembled in such a way that each light shell (head, body, tail cap) are all together in the tank. Would be the only way of getting them close (spoke to more than a few anodizers about this). This all being the case, if it were done, would certainly be a limited run and the cost would be higher because of the added labor.
 

moltenmag

Enlightened
Joined
May 31, 2017
Messages
581
We have looked into it, but being somewhat of a perfectionist (read anal retentive) getting the parts to match as closely as possible, we would need to make sure all the parts are first machined from the exact same bar stock, then those parts would need to be assembled in such a way that each light shell (head, body, tail cap) are all together in the tank. Would be the only way of getting them close (spoke to more than a few anodizers about this). This all being the case, if it were done, would certainly be a limited run and the cost would be higher because of the added labor.

If you do it, count me in! I would l would love a HAIII HDS... mismatching doesn't bother me at all.
 

Random Dan

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jun 30, 2012
Messages
1,371
We have looked into it, but being somewhat of a perfectionist (read anal retentive) getting the parts to match as closely as possible, we would need to make sure all the parts are first machined from the exact same bar stock, then those parts would need to be assembled in such a way that each light shell (head, body, tail cap) are all together in the tank. Would be the only way of getting them close (spoke to more than a few anodizers about this). This all being the case, if it were done, would certainly be a limited run and the cost would be higher because of the added labor.
There might be enough of us who are not bothered by mismatching. Maybe you could do the assembly so Henry doesn't have to look at them? :whistle:
 

Hogokansatsukan

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Aug 14, 2006
Messages
5,243
Location
Tucson
There might be enough of us who are not bothered by mismatching. Maybe you could do the assembly so Henry doesn't have to look at them? :whistle:

Henry's the perfectionist. I'm the anal retentive one. I could do it in the dark, but all the flashlights around, I would be too tempted to turn one on.
 

moltenmag

Enlightened
Joined
May 31, 2017
Messages
581
Henry's the perfectionist. I'm the anal retentive one. I could do it in the dark, but all the flashlights around, I would be too tempted to turn one on.

You could do it blindfolded for all I care. I would still buy one... seriously though if you decide to do it automatically put me down for one.
 

AR_Shorty

Enlightened
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
263
I would definitely be in for an HA - regardless of price!! I have a thing for natural HA. ;)
 

knucklegary

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Feb 11, 2017
Messages
4,162
Location
NorCal, Central Coast
^^ Count me in as well.. The time consuming part of black ano is applying the dye by hand - I would be willing to assemble my light from the individual parts 🤗
 

ampdude

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Apr 7, 2007
Messages
4,584
Location
USA
I'm in for HA nat for sure!!! I don't mind any mismatching. Like on my old Surefires it actually adds to the charm.

And the type III black is actually not as durable of a finish as natural because of the dye. So many lights are black type III only nowadays, I find it really redundant.
 

Random Dan

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jun 30, 2012
Messages
1,371
I'm in for HA nat for sure!!! I don't mind any mismatching. Like on my old Surefires it actually adds to the charm.

And the type III black is actually not as durable of a finish as natural because of the dye. So many lights are black type III only nowadays, I find it really redundant.
Do you have a source for that information? I am not aware of any difference in durability from the dye so long as they are both type III.
 

ampdude

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Apr 7, 2007
Messages
4,584
Location
USA
Do you have a source for that information? I am not aware of any difference in durability from the dye so long as they are both type III.

Sorry I do not, I have noticed it through personal experience.

I have been told by people in the industry over the years that the black dye makes the finish not as durable as the natural finish.

I believe it because I've seen it with my own eyes.
 

archimedes

Flashaholic
Joined
Nov 12, 2010
Messages
15,780
Location
CONUS, top left
The primary determinant of durability is thickness, which has nothing to do with presence or absence of dye.

Thicker anodize is darker, if undyed, and thus tougher.

Dyed anodize is darker, for any given thickness.

Sealing the finished surface can however decrease the wear resistance, independent of the dye.
 
Last edited:

Hogokansatsukan

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Aug 14, 2006
Messages
5,243
Location
Tucson
There is a major difference in quality of anodizing from shop to shop. If you are comparing HA type III class I to class II, but using say the original HA III type 1 Surefire, then comparing those to Chinese Type III class 2, yes, the quality will be very different. It has nothing to do with the dye and everything to do with the anodizer.

If type III class 1 was actually stronger, then the upper and lower receiver on an M4 and M16 would be done in Class 1, not class 2 as is specified on the contract drawings for those manufacturers who have produced those weapons for the U.S. Military. I don't believe they specified this because they don't like the color green or gray and the U.S. military wouldn't have specified it if it were not as strong.
 

ampdude

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Apr 7, 2007
Messages
4,584
Location
USA
There is a major difference in quality of anodizing from shop to shop. If you are comparing HA type III class I to class II, but using say the original HA III type 1 Surefire, then comparing those to Chinese Type III class 2, yes, the quality will be very different. It has nothing to do with the dye and everything to do with the anodizer.

If type III class 1 was actually stronger, then the upper and lower receiver on an M4 and M16 would be done in Class 1, not class 2 as is specified on the contract drawings for those manufacturers who have produced those weapons for the U.S. Military. I don't believe they specified this because they don't like the color green or gray and the U.S. military wouldn't have specified it if it were not as strong.

Well, being in the U.S. military and having experience with that I'll have to take issue with that comment as the government does not always purchase the best, they purchase the best value for the mission requirements. I have plenty of experience with paying government contracts, and fiscal law as well to know this for a fact.

I do believe that regardless of the thickness of the anodizing, the black dye does indeed lend a certain amount of overall weakness to the final finish.

In layman's terms I think you have to make black dye type III finish thicker in order to make it stronger than type III natural finish. It only seems logical.
 
Last edited:

Hogokansatsukan

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Aug 14, 2006
Messages
5,243
Location
Tucson
Well, being in the U.S. military and having experience with that I'll have to take issue with that comment as the government does not always purchase the best, they purchase the best value for the mission requirements. I have plenty of experience with paying government contracts, and fiscal law as well to know this for a fact.

I do believe that regardless of the thickness of the anodizing, the black dye does indeed lend a certain amount of overall weakness to the final finish.

In layman's terms I think you have to make black dye type III finish thicker in order to make it stronger than type III natural finish. It only seems logical.

The government buys from the lowest bidder (or the one with compromising photos of a senator). The entire reason for military specification is so that the lowest bidder builds whatever it is to the specs on the drawing so that corners don't get cut. for MIL-A-8625 Type III Class 1 and 2 the thickness should be 2 mils. I've always said that Milspec seems to mean more to civilians than it does to anyone actually serving and means less to Marines because we never got issued anything until the army wore it out. But the spec is there so that more than one company can produce the same gear.

What you are failing to realize that it isn't the dye that is making the anodizing weak, it is the company cutting corners on the anodizing thickness which is much easier to hide when black dye is used. If you are making this comparison based on Chinese lights that claim to have MIL-A-8635 Type III Class 2, which states a thickness of 2 mills, then you are doing yourself a disservice.

There is a difference in saying Type III class 2 and simply saying hard anodized type III, or even Military type II HA. That's marketing. Most lights don't have a 2 mil thickness. Compare the anodize on an Elzetta, Gemtech suppressor, HDS, or true 2 mil thickness HA on a receiver. Cheap products have thin anodizing as a way to cut corners, and class 2 helps to hide this, but if done properly to the actual MIL-A-8625 Type III Class 2, it will be 2 mils thick, which most of the cheap and even the not so cheap lights are not actually doing. Considering the dishonesty in output from manufacturers, do you really think they are being honest about the anodizing as well? That would be pretty naive.
 
Last edited:
Top