E Series lamp options

night.hoodie

Enlightened
Joined
Aug 6, 2014
Messages
717
Location
Lost City of Atlanta
Recently I have been using Tad Customs 3718 instead of 3712, even though I think even the 3712 is too bright with Li-ion, can't help myself.

But I was surprised to see that using the 3718 with a primary CR123A is brighter and whiter than the 3712 with primary. I did not expect it to pull the current.

Is it safe to draw 1.8A from primary CR123A? Is runtime going to be far less than with 1.2A of 3712?

Anyone figure out what the name/title of the closest generic standard size of bipin lamp that matches what Tad is selling? Tad covers what most users want and buy. I'm curious about other amps, voltages, cell combinations, both lower and higher voltage/amps than Tad Customs' inventory, that most consumers apparently are not, 3&4x IMR/LFE, 1+x NiMH of various sizes.

What is the practical difference between Halogen and Xenon lamps? What other differences? Can I get small (Tad Customs E-socket -sized) bipin Halogen lamps somewhere?

Any CPF members feel free to post anything whatsoever about any E Series lamp options (even with adapter+P60 heads), impressions, specs, lights, beamshots, etc.
 

night.hoodie

Enlightened
Joined
Aug 6, 2014
Messages
717
Location
Lost City of Atlanta
Yep ... so good, we even pinned it up top :devil:


Clever hiding place. I would never think to look there. Generally, my answers are there.

Quoting an excerpt from the Voltage Concepts of Tactical Lamps and Lithium cells chapter, adding my emphasis, that "covers" everything I want to know, but chapter is missing the four configurations mdocod categorized as available choices in a previous chapter that is probably important for all subsequent, namely, 1) 3.7V lamp, 1 cell; 2) 9V lamp, 2 cell; 3) 13V lamp, 3 cells; and 4) anything else or none-of-the-above.

...CR123A primary cells, when BRAND new, fresh out of the box, measure about 3.2V per cell. However. When you put a load on them, that voltage does not stay 3.2. This is the case with ALL batteries. They have an open circuit voltage, and they have a working voltage. Depending on how much you demand from the cell (in amps) will determine how much variation there is between open circuit voltage and working voltage... Please Refer to Silverfoxes charts of CR123A discharge characteristics here http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...ad.php?t=67078
You will see that at 1 Amp, most cells almost immediately sag to 2.5V.


Now, most standard 9V lamps are from 1.1-1.3 Amp. The HO-9 is about 1.5Amp. At 1.5Amp we can expect the average CR123A cell to sag to about 2.4V within a few seconds of being fresh. 3X2.4V=7.2V
So.. when designing high power tactical lamps, they take this into consideration.. They need the lamp to be able to survive that initial high-voltage spike of the first few seconds, but they try to make the bulb in such a way that it will run strong and bright far below 9V, because in reality, the bulb will rarely if ever actually get 9V after the voltage sag of the batteries under a load.

Take a look under "lamp specifications" at this page: http://www.lumensfactory.com/specifications
you'll see they have designed the target voltage for 9V lamp to be 7.6V. smart eh?
Also take note of the EO-9, which is a 7.2V lamp... this is because it draws 2.0amps and sags the voltage of the cells down even further. they took this into consideration when designing this lamp, by doing so, it is brighter and whiter off of the cells it was intended to be used with.

Now... Here's the deal withe Li-Ion.
Yes they do only come off the charger at 4.2V (8.4V total for a pair in series). But as you can see above, the fresh voltage of a cell says very little about the way it works under a load. GENERALLY speaking, Lithium Ion cells suffer from less voltage sag than Lithium Primaries. As a result of this, the ideal voltage range for running a 9V tactical lamp is reached without a problem. Now.... Ordinarily speaking. The ideal setup is to use a 3 cell light like the C3 or 9P or something. This way you can use larger cells. For example. A pair of 17500 size cells are a direct replacement for a set of 3 CR123s. The larger higher capacity cells will also perform as well or better than the original configuration of 3 CR123s.. When you step down a "notch" in size and try to run powerful 9V lamp assemblies off of small RCR123 cells, depending on the cell, you do loose a little bit of performance and a lot of runtime trying to get so much out of so little... but if compact size and bright are important, then we make these sacrifices. As far as real world use goes, you wouldn't be able to tell much different between a HO-9 on a pair of RCR123s to a HO-9 on 3 CR123s... in fact, it's hard to distinguish the difference between LFs HO-9 and EO-9. The human eye just isn't a very good light meter. On a pair of BIG Li-Ion cells like 17670s, the HO-9 runs at about 1.6Amp. On the small RCR123s, it runs closer to 1.5Amp.... So a bigger set of cells will run a little brighter, but you can't see much difference. For long runtime, many people are using "4 cell" sized bodies (length of 4 CR123A cells) that are bored to accept 18mm diameter cells... a pair of 18650s gives about 2200mAh capacity instead of the ~550mAh you get from a pair of RCR123s, So they can drive even more powerful lamps, or run the regular ones much longer. But at the sacrifice of space... [WOLF-EYES and PILA brand lights come from the factory with 18mm diameter cells in mind, no boring neccessary, if you are new to the world of Li-Ion, you would do yourself a great favor to start with one of these brands, being able to support the extra mm diameter cell, adds about 30-50% capacity and current capability to your configuration, you can also piece together a Surfire Style Light using many of the available Surefire heads, bezels, tailcaps, and lamps, in conjunction with Leef or FM bodies sold at Lighthound. The result is Surefire Like quality with support for 18mm cells. this is generally the most expensive, but also the most rewarding, and adaptable option available.]

It's important to note that rechargeable cells are often rated differently than primary cells. Specifically, most primary cells are rated at their "fresh" open-circuit voltage output, while most rechargeable cells are rated at their "nominal" or average output into a load. So a CR123 primary is rated 3.0V, but in reality, under a load, it is usually around 2.25V-2.75V depending on how demanding the load. A Li-Ion cell is rated 3.7V, but in reality, it actually HOLDS 3.7V or higher into most loads. [food for thought time]:The same holds true in comparing Alkaline primary cells to rechargeable NIMH cells. In reality, even thought the NIMH is only rated 1.2V, it will often hold a higher voltage through most of a discharge than it's "1.5V" Alkaline cousin.



I learned about what I want to know, but I am still not certain. I think the idea is to look for the rating of the cell, use the multiplier and have certainty the usage-case is safe.

Here's the specs I found for the Titanium Innovations CR123A cells at BatteryJunction,
BatteryJunction.com said:


  • Battery Specifications:
    Voltage: 3V
    Normal Capacity: 1400 mAh
    Self-discharge Rate: <1% per Year
    Max. Constant Current: 1500mA
    Max Pulse Current: 3000mA
    Normal Weight: 16 g
    Operating Temperature: -20 C ~ 60 C
    PTC High Current Discharge Protection: 5AMP


/edit/
Can I tell the C-rate from this? Or do I need to know my runtime first?

I know that at 1.4A I should get 1 hour. 1.5A is max. I'm wondering if, though the lamp is 1.8A, the cells might not quite be delivering 1.8A.


if the maximum discharge rate is 2C, it only means "capacity x 2" IF the cell holds it's rated capacity at that load. Most cells do not deliver their rated capacity into high loads, so it's important to re-calculate the maximum safe discharge rate based on the typical capacity of a cell into a particular load.
/edit/



"Is it safe to draw 1.8A from primary CR123A?"

From this one? I still can't say for sure, but looks like I'm not far from ok, it shouldn't trip the PTC. It is a little above the published 1500mA max constant current specification. The voltage sag is going to be close to 2.3V or 2.4V drawing 1.8A, and...

"Is runtime going to be far less than with 1.2A of 3712?"

so runtime will be far less. I'll need to test my runtime from a fresh cell to have an idea.



Though that post is not old by any means, it feels to me like it harkens back to an era when flashlight lamps of all manner of configuration fell from the skies and were plentiful, easily found, possibly inexpensive. Or could it be that the common experience of thousands of flashlighters has led to the 4 categories, and that most are wisely sticking with one or more of the first 3 categories (for safety and convenience)?

"Anyone figure out what the name/title of the closest generic standard size of bipin lamp that matches what Tad is selling?"

I noticed, not only are there slim options I am aware of finding lamps to use in E Series (and for those slim options extant I am deeply grateful), that there are mountains of lamps that are made and sold for other applications other than flashlights. Maybe there are some that could work, if "work" is relative... working poorly is still working. I just don't know specifics like if the lamps will fit the reflector, the socket, because I don't know the lamp industry lingo, can't tell from pictures...

Or am I supposed to understand there is not a simplification, this is instead what there is, I should only stick with categories 1-3, those are the lamps available, that's how everyone else consumes, safest place to be, and category 4 isn't what I think it is, it is custom lamps for pro-flashlighting, not some arbitrary non-flashlighting lamp shoehorned into the application just for thrills, but professional skills applied as do-not-try-this-at-home?
 
Last edited:

fivemega

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jan 28, 2003
Messages
5,522
Location
California
I was using TL-3 bulb (7.5V, 1.2A) with pair of IMR18350 or Strion bulb (3.7V, 1.7A) with single 18XXX on these sockets.
Bulb pins are 2mm apart (center to center) and pin thickness of 0.5mm

18500E2e001.jpg~original
 
Last edited:

night.hoodie

Enlightened
Joined
Aug 6, 2014
Messages
717
Location
Lost City of Atlanta
Thanks FiveMega, the details are helpful. I gleaned somewhere that bulb sizes are named after pin distance. I thought the pin distance on lamps for MiniMag were also called G1.27 or something indicating a pin distance of 1.27mm. The distance between pins on Tad Customs lamps appears to be about or more than 2mm, but I have no way to measure.
 

bykfixer

Flashaholic
Joined
Aug 9, 2015
Messages
20,352
Location
Dust in the Wind
Pin thickness may matter more than the spread. Too thin and they'll fall out in cases where the light is jostled. Too thick and it'll permanently oversize the holes in the adapter.
 

fivemega

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jan 28, 2003
Messages
5,522
Location
California
Pin thickness may matter more than the spread.

They are standardized. Normally sockets can tolerate small amount or even support next larger size. For example these sockets can fit and hold G4, G6.35 and GY6.35

If your socket doesn't hold the bulb properly, here is solution:
bentpinbulb.jpg~original

Size and amount of pin bending are exaggerated in above picture and real size must be very small.


Here are few examples of bi pins:

G2 base 2mm pins apart, 0.5mm pin thickness.

G4 base 4mm pins apart, 0.7mm pin thickness.

G5.3 base 5.33mm pins apart, 1.5mm pin thickness.

G6.33 base 6.35mm pins apart, 1mm pin thickness.

G6Y.35 base 6.35mm pins apart, 1.25mm pin thickness.



G4083.jpg~original

Above picture shows most effective way of securing a bulb from falling also get better electrical connection..
 
Last edited:
Top