I have a whole bin of used Li-Ion, Lipolys and Nimh roughly about 10 years old. Probably have not really charged them in 2-3 years. Is it time to just throw out the whole lot. Do I risk danger trying to use them I am trying to clean up my hobby area and get rid of what I will not use anymore.
When to throw out batteries?
- Thread starter jaybiz32
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parametrek
Enlightened
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2013
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- 578
The NiMH might still be good. It probably needs 3 charge/discharge cycles but usually they age okay.
The li-ion has probably suffered a lot of calendar aging. They won't be able to hold much of a charge now. Don't put them in the trash. Take them to a battery disposal place. (Varies by country.)
The li-ion has probably suffered a lot of calendar aging. They won't be able to hold much of a charge now. Don't put them in the trash. Take them to a battery disposal place. (Varies by country.)
SilverFox
Flashaholic
Hello Jaybiz32,
I use capacity fade as an indicator of when to remove a cell from service. When it drops below about 80% of its original capacity I feel it is time to move on.
This applies to all chemistries.
In critical applications I also look at internal resistance by graphing the voltage drop under load. This can be an issue in multi cell high current applications.
Tom
I use capacity fade as an indicator of when to remove a cell from service. When it drops below about 80% of its original capacity I feel it is time to move on.
This applies to all chemistries.
In critical applications I also look at internal resistance by graphing the voltage drop under load. This can be an issue in multi cell high current applications.
Tom
Generally there's no danger with the Li-ion batteries stored for long periods unless they have drained very low (typically below 2.5V).
Whether or not they still have useful capacity depends on your app. They'll likely have much higher IR so may only be useful for lower-current apps, e.g. we bought a new old-stock bluetooth keyboard on eBay that was manufactured over 6 years ago - so it hasn't been charged in over 6 years. Its Li-ion cell was around 2.6V when received but it still accepted a native charge of 94% of rated capacity. And this will almost all be usable since BT keyboards are ultra-low-current so the higher IR will have little effect on usable capacity. Otoh, I've seen large lots of BT keyboards from major manufacturers (e.g. Microsoft) sold as "plug-in only" because they can no longer be charged after sitting in a warehouse for a few years. So YMMV greatly depending on various factors (storage charge and environment, BMS parasitic load, etc).
Whether or not they still have useful capacity depends on your app. They'll likely have much higher IR so may only be useful for lower-current apps, e.g. we bought a new old-stock bluetooth keyboard on eBay that was manufactured over 6 years ago - so it hasn't been charged in over 6 years. Its Li-ion cell was around 2.6V when received but it still accepted a native charge of 94% of rated capacity. And this will almost all be usable since BT keyboards are ultra-low-current so the higher IR will have little effect on usable capacity. Otoh, I've seen large lots of BT keyboards from major manufacturers (e.g. Microsoft) sold as "plug-in only" because they can no longer be charged after sitting in a warehouse for a few years. So YMMV greatly depending on various factors (storage charge and environment, BMS parasitic load, etc).
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WalkIntoTheLight
Flashlight Enthusiast
Old batteries, both NiMH and lithium-ion, can still be good after 10 years. It really depends on your application. If you're using them in a high-output flashlight, it may not be good to do. But if you're using them in moderate-power lights, old cells can still be very useful.
For NiMH, just stick them in your device and see if they work. There's no danger.
For lithium-ion, make sure they haven't fallen below about 2.0v. Charge them up to 4.2v, and see if they hold above 4.15v for a week. If they pass that test, they're probably fine to use. Though, I'd keep it below about 4 amps per cell. Make sure they don't get hot during use (check the first couple of times, just to be sure).
For NiMH, just stick them in your device and see if they work. There's no danger.
For lithium-ion, make sure they haven't fallen below about 2.0v. Charge them up to 4.2v, and see if they hold above 4.15v for a week. If they pass that test, they're probably fine to use. Though, I'd keep it below about 4 amps per cell. Make sure they don't get hot during use (check the first couple of times, just to be sure).
Please don't recommend possibly dangerous guesses about safety. There is no scientific evidence that the above proposed safety test works. For further discussion on this see this prior thread on that topic and follow the links I gave there.
In the OP's relatively extreme case (10-year old cells in storage for a few years) it would be best to follow the conservative generic values given by some top-tier manufacturers, i.e. do not use them if they were below 2.5V for a nontrivial period of time.
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HKJ
Flashaholic
Nice to get some numbers from you, but could you please include a link to where the manufacturers specify that.
HKJ
Flashaholic
Sorry, it was silly of me to expect a link from you.
The thread you link to do not include any link to manufactures or manufactures documents and it do not include any link by you.
Iirc you are familiar with the various (public) design guides (Sony, Panasonic, etc ) since you posted excerpts here before. So your question is puzzling.
In any case, my primary point was not to endorse any (conservative) bounds but, rather, to strongly discourage the use of unproven (guessed) safety tests (that's what was discussed at length in the links I gave).
In any case, my primary point was not to endorse any (conservative) bounds but, rather, to strongly discourage the use of unproven (guessed) safety tests (that's what was discussed at length in the links I gave).
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HKJ
Flashaholic
I supposed you are talking about this article: https://lygte-info.dk/info/BatteryLowVoltage UK.html
There I show that most manufactures set the limit at 2.0V or lower, but you said 2.5V and I would like to see the manufacturer documents to back that.
Anyway, high self-discharge in LiIon batteries are a very bad sign. Low self discharge may not make them safe, but they will be much safer than batteries with high self discharge.
The precise lower limit varies by manufacturer, chemistry, etc (those public design guides are not meant to be precise - generally you need to contact the manufacturer to obtain precise values)
I chose 2.5V above because I think one should be very conservative in the OP's extreme case, and that value meets or exceeds anything I've encountered by manufacturers (and also by general theory).
But this is tangential to my main point - which is to discourage guesses on such matters (in the linked threads there are guesses that similar "safety tests" work even for cells overdischarged to 0 volts - which can be quite dangerous).
But these types of tests do not necessarily distinguish high self-discharge from slow voltage rebound in very high IR cells, so it implies little. More importantly, unsafe cells need not have high self-discharge, so the test may wrongly deem dangerous cells to be safe.
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IlluminationDomination
Enlightened
I keep it Simple. When they are ~ 75% to 80% of original capacity I simply recycle them. These cells are cheap.
Besides wanting to be right,some people tend to overthink and complicate things.
Besides wanting to be right,some people tend to overthink and complicate things.
How does that answer the OP's question? Do you believe that unsafe overdischarged cells must have high capacity loss? If so, why do you believe that?
Besides wanting to be right,some people tend to overthink and complicate things.
Battery electrochemistry is a complicated subject. Complicating matters further, even the experts admit that much is still unknown about overdischarge degradation mechanisms (see the quotes I gave in the links).
If any battery topic deserves extra effort to strive "to be right" then surely it is safety. For if someone guesses wrong about safety tests then that could lead to someone being seriously injured.
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ven
Flashaholic
I had my first cell ever to vent on me the other day . I had two 20700 cells, an 18650 and AAA Panasonic nimh. I heard this hiss, then quiet then again. Sat next to the charger(luckily) , I first removed the bigger cells quickly. Only to find it was the nimh. Hot is not the word!! Luckily the leak was small and caught quick being next to it(no damage to the charger). Cell left outside to cool and now recycled .
There were no warnings, cell was 1.2v when placed on charger. So that cell decided for me , no signs or anything. I will admit to bad practices in the past, leaving unattended at times(even over night). This however is a thing of the past, last couple of years anyway, i am always in the vicinity. This recent incident has further cemented using good practices is the best way. We don't always get easy signs of when to recycle , it can just happen out of the blue!
There were no warnings, cell was 1.2v when placed on charger. So that cell decided for me , no signs or anything. I will admit to bad practices in the past, leaving unattended at times(even over night). This however is a thing of the past, last couple of years anyway, i am always in the vicinity. This recent incident has further cemented using good practices is the best way. We don't always get easy signs of when to recycle , it can just happen out of the blue!
WalkIntoTheLight
Flashlight Enthusiast
I don't think FUD helps these kinds of discussions. People are looking for what is reasonably safe, not 100% safe. Life is not 100% safe, ever. Do you ever go outside? You have a greater chance of dying from skin cancer because you got some sunlight, than a lithium-ion cell killing you because you happened to discharge it to 2.0v rather than 2.5v. By all means, use only new cells if you want, but others might want to try getting the most they can out of older cells.
I don't think NiMH is likely to burn your house down if it vents when charging. It's a far safer chemistry than lithium-ion. I don't leave lithium-ion cells unattended while charging, but I will charge Eneloops when I'm not around.
For it to get that hot, I suspect your charger might have thought it was a lithium-ion cell and tried charging it to 4.2v. In any case, I don't think I'd use that charger for NiMH in the future.
ven
Flashaholic
Yes agree, unfortunately I did not see what happened. I presume that to be the case even though nimh have been charged issue free on the C4-12 previously. But yes, just use my opus BT c3100 for my Nimh cells going forward. Although not likely to cause a fire themselves, sat next to cells that can though. Also a little liquid did leak from the case, potential electrical issues if it got into the charger.
It seems you may misunderstand my intent. To clarify: my safety recommendations are not intended to be 100% safe (impossible). Rather, they are in fact meant to be reasonably safe given the best of our knowledge. If you want FUD then you can follow reputable manufacturer's warnings that loose Li-ion cells should never be used by consumers (e.g. see the Sony cease and desist letter). More experienced users like you or I may be comfortable that we can safely manage less conservative practices, but that doesn't mean that we should recommend those riskier practices to the masses - who may lack the knowledge, discipline, etc to properly handle those risks.
That's nothing more than a wild guess. As I emphasized above (& linked threads), little research has been done on safety of overdisharged cells so it is impossible to accurately quantify the risks.
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WalkIntoTheLight
Flashlight Enthusiast
It's good info, in any case. I sometimes use an all-chemistry charger to charge Eneloops, but your experience has made me rethink that, and stick with NiMH-only chargers from now on. Or, at the very least, feel them part-way through the charge to make sure they're not too hot.
I could be wrong, but the OP doesn't seem inexperienced with lithium-ion cells. He's been at it for 10 years, by the sounds of it. Everyone should be made aware of the risks, but that shouldn't mean over-emphasizing the danger.
There are varying degrees of managing the risk. Use only protected cells, use only new cells, etc. But older, unprotected cells can be used safely, as long as you do some basic testing to make sure they're still okay. And, don't over-stress them in a high-drain application.
I certainly wouldn't use an old cell for vaping. But I have no issues with using old cells in 500-1000 lumen lights. More than 1000 lumens, an old cell isn't going to give good performance anyway, and safety does become more of a valid concern.
FWIW, the only 18650 cell I've had a problem with (from a safety perspective) is a brand-new Samsung 30Q cell. Very high self-discharge. I don't use it, except for occasional experiments and testing, and I keep it in a tin can for safety.
All my old cells from laptop pulls (some 10 years old), work fine. Their capacity is limited, but they make good back-up cells in case I don't have a new cell charged up. Since they're already old, I have no issues keeping them fully charged even if it ages them.
I know nothing about the OP. Usually I target my safety advice for the masses - who may stumble upon these threads via google searches etc. I strive not to recommend something that would be dangerous for beginners. If you post something that is intended for experts and it would be dangerous to beginners then I think you should preface that advice with a suitable warning.
Keep in mind that it is not just a matter of "experience" (or knowledge). The ability to safely use Li-ion cells involves more than experience and knowledge - it also requires the discipline to rigorously follow safety rules. I've known experts that have seriously injured themselves because they are either too absent-minded or too sloppy to adhere to safety protocols. These and related factors all need to be carefully considered when lending advice on safety.
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