Does high CRI always come at the price of efficiency? How much?

llmercll

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I've noticed that my high CRI lights get very hot at the same lumens as a normal CRI light. I'm especially referring to the 4x, 12x nichia lights, but I've also noticed my high CRI CREE zebras get very hot too at their max setting.

Does high CRI have to come at the cost of efficiency? Is this always the case?
 

Timothybil

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The lower efficiency appears to be a significant difference until one takes into account that the human eye response to light is a log scale. It takes roughly four times the light to appear twice as bright. When looked at that way, the difference in output is not really all that significant, compared to the advantages gained from the higher CRI.
 

WalkIntoTheLight

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It depends what you're using the light for. Outdoors, an 80 CRI neutral white is perfectly fine almost all the time, and I don't give up much efficiency to get that. Indoors, it's usually fine as well, except for when accurate color is very important. I'll use high CRI for anything to do with skin, and usually when color identification is important (such as electrical wires).

I suppose if you're looking at a flower garden at night, you might want high CRI for that too. Otherwise, it's really hard for me to tell the difference between 80 CRI and 95 CRI, given the same tint and CCT.
 

Fireclaw18

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The lower efficiency appears to be a significant difference until one takes into account that the human eye response to light is a log scale. It takes roughly four times the light to appear twice as bright. When looked at that way, the difference in output is not really all that significant, compared to the advantages gained from the higher CRI.
There are several factors that affect the output of an LED: (lumens, intensity, color temp, tint, and CRI). Of those factors I find CRI to be by FAR the most subtle and least useful. I can instantly see the difference in color temp at a glance. But I can't really tell a high-CRI from a low CRI light unless I hold them side-by-side and compare beams.

So is high CRI worth it for a given light? ... it really depends on what the options are in that particular light.

Take the Emisar D4 for example:
Option 1: Nichia high CRI 219C, around 3800 lumens max.
Option 2: XPL HI non-high CRI around 4300 lumens max.

But then consider that the Nichias get hotter faster so can't run quite as long. And they are much less intense so you don't get as much throw. Result is to illuminate anything you need to have the Nichia version set to a higher power than the XPL HI version.

Personally, I'd take high CRI if I can get it without losing anything else. Otherwise I'll go with the low-CRI option for general use. I'd take an 80 CRI with rosy tint over a 93 CRI green tint any day.

High-CRI seems mostly for specialized use when having good color definion matters more. I use it to help illuminate my table for hobby painting for example.
 
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The_Driver

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Does high CRI have to come at the cost of efficiency? Is this always the case?

Yes. High-cri LEDs will always be less efficient than standard cool-white ones. Cool-white LEDs have the thinnest phosphor layer and convert the blue light mostly to green and yellow. These are the wavelengths that the human eye is most sensitive to. Thus you get high lumens per watt (lumens is basically "light Watts" which incorporates the human eyes spectral sensitivity curve). To get high-cri you need a more balanced spectrum - i.e. more orange, more cyan and especially more red. The human eye is not very sensitive to red so you get lower lumens per watt even if you have the same watts of light ouputted after conversion in the phosphor. In addition to this the phosphor layer is usually thicker which further reduces efficiency.
 
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Modernflame

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So is high CRI worth it for a given light? ... it really depends on what the options are in that particular light.

Take the Emisar D4 for example:
Option 1: Nichia high CRI 219C, around 3800 lumens max.
Option 2: XPL HI non-high CRI around 4300 lumens max.

Your opinion is certainly valid, but I see it the other way around. I would not notice (or care about) the difference between 4300 lm and 3800 lm. In fact, I'd probably never operate the flashlight at that setting. However, the difference in light quality between a 219c and an XPL HI is appreciable.
 

KITROBASKIN

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Your opinion is certainly valid, but I see it the other way around. I would not notice (or care about) the difference between 4300 lm and 3800 lm. In fact, I'd probably never operate the flashlight at that setting. However, the difference in light quality between a 219c and an XPL HI is appreciable.

So many times we read and write about lumen output, citing maximum mode, but it is easy to forget that maximum for most flashlights is not going to last long at all. The difference then will become even less, only apparent when compared directly at the same time. And if it is an area light with a wide beam, it may look miniscule.

When it comes to light quality though, seems like we should recognize the term 'quality' is an opinion. There are some XPL HI emitters that are very good, that is to say they do not distract with an off tint; Especially as the eyes/brain accomodate. It is only under close examination where one can see certain colors, as in shades of brown, that are less in tune with sunlight, compared with some Nichia LED's, which will run hotter to get a brighter output.

As the sun sets on the less efficient incandescent glowing-filament light sources, perhaps in the future we will not value that warm 'look' so much as in the past?
 

mattheww50

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The challenge in high CRI lights is the phosphors. The LED emits essentially a single wavelength of light, the phosphors are responsible for converting that singe wavelength into other wavements. High CRI requires a very broad spectrum of output, and that is almost always a challenge. You can see this problem in the history books. Most here are not old enough to know what Color Television looked like in its first decade. The picture was actually pretty dim. The problem was the performance of the red phosphor, and it took almost a decade find a solution to that problem. A rare earth based phosphor was developed in early 1960's that allowed color Television pictures to get much brighter. There is a very good analogy with fluorescent lamps. They make white light the same way LED's do, with phosphors. In the late 1980's I had a seemingly intractable lighting problem in the family room of my house. I went to a lighting specialist who suggest I utilize some (at the time) exotic fluorescent lamps. They were high CRI F40 lamp made by GE. In case quantities they just over $9 EACH from the local GE wholesaler. They were so expensive that no retailer in his right mind would carry them! GE also had series of Fluorescent lamps with extraordinarily high CRI, the Chroma series. IIRC the Chroma 50 had a CRI of 93. That was the good news, the bad news was the F40 version had a tough time even putting out 2000 lumens (Today's better F40's can deliver about 3400 lumens). It was discontinued because it couldn't meet the mandated energy efficiency standards. The basic problem is that phosphors that have very high efficiency and put out the right wavelength tend to be difficult to create and difficult to manufacture, which means expensive. When you are building a product for a mass market (which is what LED makers are after these days) every penny in cost counts.
 

lumen aeternum

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seems like you could increase CRI by using some dedicated color LEDs in conjunction with a "main" LED.
 

Fireclaw18

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Your opinion is certainly valid, but I see it the other way around. I would not notice (or care about) the difference between 4300 lm and 3800 lm. In fact, I'd probably never operate the flashlight at that setting. However, the difference in light quality between a 219c and an XPL HI is appreciable.
If it was just 3800 v. 4300, then I would agree with you... the high CRI option would probably be superior.

But it's not. In addition to the extra lumens, the XPL HI version features:

* better tint (XPL HI has a beautiful slightly rosy tint vs. yellowish green for the 219C).

* twice the lux - so you can run the light at half the power and still get just as much light on the target as the 219C. The Nichia is almost a pure flood wall of light. The XPL HI version is also quite floody but to me has a much better beam pattern.

* less heat at the same power. The high-CRI version heats up and starts ramping down almost instantly. The XPL HI version heats up slightly slower.

When these other advantages are taken into account, the 80 CRI XPL HI version is simply a much more useful light than the 90+ CRI Nichia version.
 
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Modernflame

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It's probably worth saying that high CRI lights might be better suited to smaller, lower output applications. A photon cannon like your emisar could be in a different category.
 

Fireclaw18

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It's probably worth saying that high CRI lights might be better suited to smaller, lower output applications. A photon cannon like your emisar could be in a different category.
Yes, that is quite true.

Also some high-CRI emitters are really nice. The high-CRI XHP 50.2 inside my Zebralight H604C is excellent. I'd happily choose that emitter for any of my XHP50 lights if it were an option.
 

Tixx

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If it was just 3800 v. 4300, then I would agree with you... the high CRI option would probably be superior.

But it's not. In addition to the extra lumens, the XPL HI version features:

* better tint (XPL HI has a beautiful slightly rosy tint vs. yellowish green for the 219C).

* twice the lux - so you can run the light at half the power and still get just as much light on the target as the 219C. The Nichia is almost a pure flood wall of light. The XPL HI version is also quite floody but to me has a much better beam pattern.

* less heat at the same power. The high-CRI version heats up and starts ramping down almost instantly. The XPL HI version heats up slightly slower.

When these other advantages are taken into account, the 80 CRI XPL HI version is simply a much more useful light than the 90+ CRI Nichia version.

The D4 being the example, yes, I completely agree with you here! I even prefer the XP-G2 4000k that are offered. The xp-g2 don't run as hot, more output and all 3 I've had on the D4s have all been a rosy color, even better than the XP-L 4000ks.
 

bykfixer

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The challenge in high CRI lights is the phosphors. The LED emits essentially a single wavelength of light, the phosphors are responsible for converting that singe wavelength into other wavements. High CRI requires a very broad spectrum of output, and that is almost always a challenge. You can see this problem in the history books. Most here are not old enough to know what Color Television looked like in its first decade. The picture was actually pretty dim. The problem was the performance of the red phosphor, and it took almost a decade find a solution to that problem. A rare earth based phosphor was developed in early 1960's that allowed color Television pictures to get much brighter. There is a very good analogy with fluorescent lamps. They make white light the same way LED's do, with phosphors. In the late 1980's I had a seemingly intractable lighting problem in the family room of my house. I went to a lighting specialist who suggest I utilize some (at the time) exotic fluorescent lamps. They were high CRI F40 lamp made by GE. In case quantities they just over $9 EACH from the local GE wholesaler. They were so expensive that no retailer in his right mind would carry them! GE also had series of Fluorescent lamps with extraordinarily high CRI, the Chroma series. IIRC the Chroma 50 had a CRI of 93. That was the good news, the bad news was the F40 version had a tough time even putting out 2000 lumens (Today's better F40's can deliver about 3400 lumens). It was discontinued because it couldn't meet the mandated energy efficiency standards. The basic problem is that phosphors that have very high efficiency and put out the right wavelength tend to be difficult to create and difficult to manufacture, which means expensive. When you are building a product for a mass market (which is what LED makers are after these days) every penny in cost counts.

Good post sir.

9 1980's dollars per bulb? That'd be like what, $20 today? Each? Holy cow man!!

When I was young, lighting was lighting. It kinda came down to whether you could see or not.... not anything like does my purple African violet look blue at night. And you put away your socks in the daytime with dark blue to one side, light colored between and black on the other side. We did ok.

Oh and those Sony Trinatrons? wow, Wow WOW what a boon they were. Of course my parents hadn't forgotten WW2 so no Japanese tv was going to be used in our house. Zenith or RCA or a Sears tv were required. Yet when gasoline reached 75¢ and lines were long, somehow a Toyota was ok. lol. My dad was a Ford guy through and through but he wouldn't touch a Pinto with a 10 foot (3m) pole... even before they exploded.

Anyway, we had Kel-Lites and Radio Shack made Kel-Lite knock offs back then. Mom had a 4c Maglite at one point.

I remember a time when light bulbs made your house look like an aquarium... all blue tinted like. But we got through without the need for psychotropic drugs. So when the LED flashlight could surpass 75 lumens and not look purple nobody complained.

To me, those high cri lights appear like lights when I was younger and it was obviously an artificial source. I suppose its because my eyes have gotten used to the cooler end of the tint spectrum and when a light puts out a beam without what folks call tint shift, my brain thinks its pretty close to sunlight.

I grew up at a time where hospital rooms had ashtrays, pop sprayed around the foundation of the house with now banned termite killer, and paint still contained lead. So maybe years of absorbing all those toxins has clouded my eyeballs, but I just don't see the charm in all these 90+ CRI lights. 75-80 works just fine to my brain.
 

MAD777

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I enjoyed reading your post bykfixer. Brought back my own similar childhood memories, including the first b/w TV set brought into the house (Zenith).

But, I do appreciate warm to neutral, high CRI when I can get it.
 

InvisibleFrodo

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So, bykfixer, to clarify, are you saying you dislike the 90+ CRI lights in favor of the 75-80 CRI lights? Or just that the 90+ lights aren't "that much" better to justify the loss in light output? Just curious. I have a feeling we would like similar lights since you seem to have a preference towards incandescent, and I love the light they put out. But it seems maybe you actually prefer your LEDs a bit cooler? I love and dream of LEDs that can fool my brain into thinking I'm looking at an incandescent. 4000K in several applications also seems to have found a place in my heart as I find it very pleasant. In fact, I'm to the point were that is the most important factor for a light. How enjoyable is it to use? Because that seems to factor in all variables as they all add up to equal the total experience. Size, weight, ergonomics, user interface, beam pattern, tint, color rendition, brightness, etc... Even the presence or absence of a pocket clip factors into how nice the light is to both carry and use.
 
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