Some Fenix brand 16340 Lithium Ion battery testing in the HDS

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RCS1300

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Below is my experience and testing of the Fenix 16340 as well as a question, at the end.

I purchased six new Fenix 16340 lithium Ion batteries, LiCoO2, protected 700mAh batteries from Battery Junction about four months ago for use in my HDS flashlights. Coupled that with a new Nitecore D4 charger.

After experiencing some hiccups with my two HDS lights I decided to do a run test on five of the batteries. The hiccups consisted of random resets as identified by the light, at random, flashing five times and then the Locator Flash coming on - about once every 8 days of use over four months. The hiccups also included the light turning itself off and then the Locator Flash coming on - happened twice in 4 months.

The test included running the HDS light on high/max for as long as the batteries would last before stepping down in output. All batteries were charged to 4.20 volts before beginning. Results:

Battery 0 = 42 minutes run time
Battery 1 = 60 minutes run time
Battery 2 = 60 minutes run time
Battery 3 = 40 minutes run time - before it shut off and the Locator Flash came on.
Battery 4 = 52 minutes run time

My interpretation is that the quality control used in the production of these batteries is poor, very poor with over a 30 percent variance in run time between batteries.

Not sure if there is a better rechargeable choice though as all of the 16340 rechargeable batteries are made in China (at least Fenix makes an effort to produce a Materials Safety Data Sheet). Looked into the IMR version of lithium Ion and decided against that as it is also made in China and contains no protection circuit. After reading many articles on IMRs I do understand that they cannot be over charged. However, if some contaminants found their way into the package during production there is nothing to prevent a short.

Interesting article on IMR from another CPF member, Battery Guy:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?325456-What-exactly-does-quot-IMR-quot-mean


Has anyone located a non-Chinese source for 16340's? I believe AW used to source his product from Japan. Any other "Manufacturers" of 16340s like AW around?
 
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thermal guy

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I think others are having a locator flash issue as well. It been discussed in the hds section. But ya that is way to much variance. If of course it's not an issue with the light.
 

Modernflame

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Has anyone located a non-Chinese source for 16340's? I believe AW used to source his product from Japan. Any other "Manufacturers" of 16340s like AW around?

I'm afraid I can't answer this question, but having experienced a thermal runaway event with an IMR cell, I understand the concern. I recently bought a few Efest unprotected IMR 16340's and have had no trouble. If anything is to go wrong, it will most likely happen during the first few charge/discharge cycles. My solution is to watch them hawkishly while charging during this period--with a fire extinguisher at hand--and to discharge them in a less valuable light. Once the cell has proven itself, I allow it to enter more treasured flashlights and I relax while charging (although I never leave them unattended on the charger).

In any case, I would not be comfortable relying on the protection circuit to prevent thermal runaway. YMMV.

Regarding those hiccups, have you sent the light to Henry? He can make that right for you.
 

night.hoodie

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Looked into the IMR version of lithium Ion and decided against that as it is also made in China and contains no protection circuit.

Some early IMR cells apparently did have protection circuits. But the vast majority of IMR cells do not have that circuit, because low voltage protection is not needed, because LiMn is resistant to low voltage, the cells generally will recover after being used below 2.5V, but probably damaged with reduced capacity. Internally, my understanding is, LiMn won't build up an internal short. Though you have a point about external shorts, I think everyone that loves protection circuits puts way way too much faith in them, regarding external shorts. We have seen lots of examples here of things going wrong when a battery is shorted in a sealed tube... some of those examples definitely had a protection circuit... and it did nothing to stop the short and subsequent explosion (and injury) or whatever less dramatic thing occurred.

Where does this faith in a crummy strip slapped on some cell come from? Don't trust it. It is NOT any second line of defense. In fact, protection circuits are a menace because they give the user a false sense of security. Far far better, safer, is to rely on yourself, your education, your experience, and always have an idea of the SoC of a cell in use, and keep your tools and equipment clean and in proper operating order.

LiMn user here. Fully recommended, it is a nice advance in chem from LiCo's problems, usually pushes more amps at a slight reduction in capacity that would not be noticed.

That said, I am considering gifting Fenix's 16340 with built-in USB charging, hypocritically I admit, because it has a protection circuit... but I am trusting Fenix, not the protection circuit, and idk, but I suspect the chemistry is not standard LiCo, but a safer hybrid (since it is a new and modern cell, though it still is 3.6V nominal... so I have no idea what it is).
 
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RCS1300

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In any case, I would not be comfortable relying on the protection circuit to prevent thermal runaway. YMMV.

Regarding those hiccups, have you sent the light to Henry? He can make that right for you.

The hiccups happened in my two HDS lights, of different vintage, so I believe it is the batteries causing the issue. All I can figure is that the protection circuit is kicking in, maybe due to poor quality, and that is causing the light to reset. Could be poor protection circuits, could be poor battery build. Scary stuff. Not a fan of Chinese quality control.

i do manage the voltage of my batteries very well but I cannot control the materials that are inside of them.
 

Modernflame

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All I can figure is that the protection circuit is kicking in, maybe due to poor quality, and that is causing the light to reset.

If the protection circuit kicks in, the voltage will drop to zero. This will cause a full stop (darkness), not a reset.
 

desert.snake

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Below is my experience and testing of the Fenix 16340 as well as a question, at the end.


I purchased six new Fenix 16340 lithium Ion batteries, LiCoO2, protected 700mAh batteries from Battery Junction about four months ago for use in my HDS flashlights. Coupled that with a new Nitecore D4 charger.


After experiencing some hiccups with my two HDS lights I decided to do a run test on five of the batteries. The hiccups consisted of random resets as identified by the light, at random, flashing five times and then the Locator Flash coming on - about once every 8 days of use over four months. The hiccups also included the light turning itself off and then the Locator Flash coming on - happened twice in 4 months.


The test included running the HDS light on high/max for as long as the batteries would last before stepping down in output. All batteries were charged to 4.20 volts before beginning. Results:


Battery 0 = 42 minutes run time
Battery 1 = 60 minutes run time
Battery 2 = 60 minutes run time
Battery 3 = 40 minutes run time - before it shut off and the Locator Flash came on.
Battery 4 = 52 minutes run time


My interpretation is that the quality control used in the production of these batteries is poor, very poor with over a 30 percent variance in run time between batteries.


Not sure if there is a better rechargeable choice though as all of the 16340 rechargeable batteries are made in China (at least Fenix makes an effort to produce a Materials Safety Data Sheet). Looked into the IMR version of lithium Ion and decided against that as it is also made in China and contains no protection circuit. After reading many articles on IMRs I do understand that they cannot be over charged. However, if some contaminants found their way into the package during production there is nothing to prevent a short.


Interesting article on IMR from another CPF member, Battery Guy:


http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?325456-What-exactly-does-quot-IMR-quot-mean




Has anyone located a non-Chinese source for 16340's? I believe AW used to source his product from Japan. Any other "Manufacturers" of 16340s like AW around?


Now I use these batteries everywhere Olight ORB-163C05. They are made in China and work very well. I have 4 of them, they went about 10 cycles, do you want me to send you 2 of them so that you can check their work with your flashlights? And you will send me your 2 batteries, and I will insert them into my HDS 140. Then we can eliminate problems with either batteries or flashlights (more accurately remove the suspicion of one of them).


Some early IMR cells apparently did have protection circuits. But the vast majority of IMR cells do not have that circuit, because low voltage protection is not needed, because LiMn is resistant to low voltage, the cells generally will recover after being used below 2.5V, but probably damaged with reduced capacity. Internally, my understanding is, LiMn won't build up an internal short. Though you have a point about external shorts, I think everyone that loves protection circuits puts way way too much faith in them, regarding external shorts. We have seen lots of examples here of things going wrong when a battery is shorted in a sealed tube... some of those examples definitely had a protection circuit... and it did nothing to stop the short and subsequent explosion (and injury) or whatever less dramatic thing occurred.


Where does this faith in a crummy strip slapped on some cell come from? Don't trust it. It is NOT any second line of defense. In fact, protection circuits are a menace because they give the user a false sense of security. Far far better, safer, is to rely on yourself, your education, your experience, and always have an idea of the SoC of a cell in use, and keep your tools and equipment clean and in proper operating order.


LiMn user here. Fully recommended, it is a nice advance in chem from LiCo's problems, usually pushes more amps at a slight reduction in capacity that would not be noticed.


That said, I am considering gifting Fenix's 16340 with built-in USB charging, hypocritically I admit, because it has a protection circuit... but I am trusting Fenix, not the protection circuit, and idk, but I suspect the chemistry is not standard LiCo, but a safer hybrid (since it is a new and modern cell, though it still is 3.6V nominal... so I have no idea what it is).




I agree that we have to be careful about your equipment, but there are some lights that have a driver with interesting properties - he sucks and kills cells. I had a SF Aviator incandescent lamp, I bought and put cells 16340 from AW, these cells died on the first day, after the first discharge. They just stopped charging and even some methods with parallel connection with high-current 18650 did not help them to revive. Elsetta does the same with unprotected cells, brightness is maintained almost to the end, and then a sharp drop in brightness and we are already below 2.5 volts. In HDS, you can use unprotected cells, it has an excellent driver control system.


If the driver knows that when reaching 3 volts, it is necessary to reduce the brightness artificially or somehow inform the owner that the voltage is low (as the HDS, Prometheus Alpha, Oveready, Olight Warrior X does (the latter trembles like a vibrator (i mean it
vibroplita4444444.jpg
))), then everything is fine. If the driver does not know about it and continues to suck the battery, then it is better to use protected batteries (or not to use these lights with secondary cells or not to use these lights in general).


Oh, by the way, with the help of my Elzetta, I killed a couple of cells LiFePO4. They also stopped charging. With such drivers, which suck out the batteries and keep the brightness almost to the end, you need to constantly carry a multimeter with you in order to check the battery and not fall below the threshold. Carrying a multimeter with you is not always possible and not always, unfortunately.


I think the process will go in parallel:
1) expensive and advanced brands will make lights that manage unprotected batteries well, notifying the user of the need to charge
2) and at the same time, battery protection boards will be improved, that is, when the voltage drops closer to the lower threshold of the battery protection circuit will specifically limit the current, so that the stupid driver (which is just a resistor) began to go out pretty quickly. It is possible for cheap flashlights to be sold separately protection boards for the battery. That is, a person buys a cheap but reliable flashlight, buys an unprotected battery and buys (if he needs it) a separate product, similar to a condom, that pulls on the battery and controls it. When the battery uses its lifetime, the condom is removed and put on the next new unprotected battery. This is done in some industrial equipment, but there this protection board controls from 10 to 50 pieces 18650
 
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peter yetman

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Where does this faith in a crummy strip slapped on some cell come from? Don't trust it. It is NOT any second line of defense. In fact, protection circuits are a menace because they give the user a false sense of security. Far far better, safer, is to rely on yourself, your education, your experience, and always have an idea of the SoC of a cell in use, and keep your tools and equipment clean and in proper operating order.

^^This, I'm going to save this on my Hard Drive and cut and paste it every time someone bangs on about how we should all use Protected Cells.
P
 

RCS1300

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Now I use these batteries everywhere Olight ORB-163C05. They are made in China and work very well. I have 4 of them, they went about 10 cycles, do you want me to send you 2 of them so that you can check their work with your flashlights? And you will send me your 2 batteries, and I will insert them into my HDS 140. Then we can eliminate problems with either batteries or flashlights (more accurately remove the suspicion of one of them).

Thanks for the offer. I may or may not experiment with the Olight or Nitecore offering. If I do, I will purchase them. Overall though, I am not a fan of the Chinese high capacity 16340 batteries.

To eliminate any uncertainty in my two HDS lights I plan on running Duracell primary batteries for a few weeks. I am 99% confident the issue is with the Fenix protected batteries and not my HDS lights.

Here is the listing for the Fenix battery I purchased. Based on my lot it appears that if you purchase five of those batteries, two out of five may be good. I do not want the liability of sending known inferior product to others.

Fenix ARB-L16 16340 700mAh 3.7V Protected Lithium Ion



 
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desert.snake

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Thanks for the offer. I may or may not experiment with the Olight or Nitecore offering. If I do, I will purchase them. Overall though, I am not a fan of the Chinese high capacity 16340 batteries.

To eliminate any uncertainty in my two HDS lights I plan on running Duracell primary batteries for a few weeks. I am 99% confident the issue is with the Fenix protected batteries and not my HDS lights.

Here is the listing for the Fenix battery I purchased. Based on my lot it appears that if you purchase five of those batteries, two out of five may be good. I do not want the liability of sending known inferior product to others.

Fenix ARB-L16 16340 700mAh 3.7V Protected Lithium Ion




I would not say that this is a large capacity. Usually they write Chinese 16340 fakes something like 3800 mah, 3000, 2800, 2500, 1500, 1300... etc.. as far as I know, the maximum is 700 mah now of those that I saw on sale from proven manufacturers.

I think that the fact that the capacity of the batteries is different does not mean that there is no problem in the lamp. Try an unprotected 16340 battery with a capacity of 400-600 mah. Maybe it's not a protection board, but simply a high voltage. If the problems continue, then it's definitely not the batteries.

If you do not want to make additional costs for unprotected 16340, you can do as I do - cut the protection board with nippers, leaving a bare battery and on top, to compensate for the length, put a neodymium magnet D 10 H 5 mm, you just have to wrap it with glue tape or isolation tape around the edge so that there is no short circuit
 
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RCS1300

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If the protection circuit kicks in, the voltage will drop to zero. This will cause a full stop (darkness), not a reset.


Here is what I think is happening. The Fenix rechargeable batteries once every eight or so days of use fluctuate on voltage when the HDS is turned on. The instantaneous change in voltage trips the protection circuit for a millisecond. The HDS senses voltage at turn on and then no voltage for a millisecond and as a result resets. Much like when you want to quickly reset your HDS light you turn it on and briefly unscrew the head and then refasten the head of the HDS light. If your Locator Flash is enabled it will automatically turn on.
 
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Modernflame

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I'm no expert in electronics, so hopefully someone will correct me if I'm wrong. My understanding is that if the protection circuit is tripped by low voltage, a recharge is normally required to restore function. I'm not aware of any protected batteries that toggle off and on that way. Again, this is not expert testimony. Take it for what it's worth.
 

Modernflame

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Oh, please tell us more about this. I always thought the locator turned on and off manually.

If the locator flash has been enabled from the customization menu, then it will automatically activate following a reset. Switching it on and off requires four clicks from off.
 

jon_slider

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... random resets as identified by the light, at random, flashing five times and then the Locator Flash coming on - about once every 8 days of use over four months. The hiccups also included the light turning itself off and then the Locator Flash coming on - happened twice in 4 months.
...

Battery 3 = 40 minutes run time - before it shut off and the Locator Flash came on.

it is possible that your lights have intermittent power supply issues
if so, the 40 minute run time could have been cut short by a power supply stutter

to determine battery capacity, I suggest you use a charger capable of measuring it, instead of using an HDS with possible intermittent power supply issues to test the capacity via runtime of the battery.

If the protection circuit kicks in, the voltage will drop to zero. This will cause a full stop (darkness), not a reset.

I agree.. when protection trips, the battery drops to Zero and will not work again until it is placed on a charger to reset the protection circuit

To eliminate any uncertainty in my two HDS lights I plan on running Duracell primary batteries for a few weeks.

Good idea, but I think you should send the problem lights to Henry.

There are several documented Power Supply failures on HDS lights in this thread that you started 2 months ago:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?452737-2-18-HDS-software-anyone-have-this-issue
Your lights seem to have all the symptoms of a power supply failure. I hope you give Henry a chance to fix them.

Given the random and intermittent power supply stutters, even if your CR123 tests do not cause the light to reset and go into Locator Flash mode, I would still want Henry to give the lights his blessing and seal of approval.

I hope you share the solution, it sucks to have a light that is unreliable, and Hogo has already told others with the symptoms you describe to send the light to Henry. One person did report back that Henry did find a defective power supply. After replacing the power supply the light no longer resets itself, and no longer turns on the locator flash.

I use Protected LiIon, including the Fenix w mini USB rechaging, in my HDS, and I have never had it reset itself, the way the lights with bad power supplies do.
 
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RCS1300

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Good idea, but I think you should send the problem lights to Henry.

As I stated before, I believe that the Fenix batteries are the issue causing both of my HDS lights to randomly reset on a regular basis.

The chance that I have two different HDS lights purchased months apart that both have the same problem has to be incredibly small. One is a Nichia 219b 4000K R9050 from HDS inventory and the other is a Nichia 219b 4500K R9080 from a special run.

Only if I see random resets in the future with Primary batteries will I bother Henry. The chance of this is likely .01 percent. I had discussed the issue with one of my HDS lights via email with Henry and I labeled the Fenix batteries and tracked the resets by battery over time. Once I saw my other HDS light experience the same reset using Fenix batteries it became almost certain to me that the Fenix batteries are causing the issue. That is why I did the run time test to mostly check the quality control built into these batteries.

I do have a ZTS MBT-1 load/capacity battery tester for RCR123a batteries. I consider this tool almost useless on this particular type of battery as it reads either fully charged or empty.
 
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jon_slider

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if I see random resets in the future with Primary batteries will I bother Henry.

Totally understand your desire not to bother Henry

one way or another, I hope you eliminate the resets that are evidenced by the enabled locator flash turning itself on.
 

desert.snake

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Primary batteries may not show any problems. Maybe try 16340 without a protection card? To eliminate problems with 16340, you need to use other 16340. I checked the time of this and this, it is approximately equal, as like the behavior of the lantern.

 

peter yetman

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The chance that I have two different HDS lights purchased months apart that both have the same problem has to be incredibly small. One is a Nichia 219b 4000K R9050 from HDS inventory and the other is a Nichia 219b 4500K R9080 from a special run.
Those damn lights with Nichia LEDs, send them over to me (I'll pay half the postage) and I'll put them to work in the Brewery - it's all they're good for.
PM me for the shipping details.
P
 

desert.snake

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Ha, I'd love to take the second one too :) This is a joke, do not be offended. I watch the HDS site closely and watch when a possible remainder of these diodes appears.


One thought occurred to me yesterday, today I checked it again. Unfortunately, I do not have Phoenix batteries, but I have Eagletac battery 16650 (2 pieces). She has one interesting feature - it starts to flash before it goes out completely. It blinks both on xenon 6P, and on Elsetta, and on diode SF LX2/E2D. I made a video of how it flashes on Elzetta at the moment before disconnecting, If you give it time, a few seconds, the battery will flash again when the lamp is turned on (too little voltage).

This video is a demonstration of the behavior of Eagletac 16650 battery. This battery has a weirdness - it begins to interrupt the power supply of the lamp for a short time before disconnecting. It flickers with high frequency. like a stroboscope. Do not open if you or others have sensitive vision or are suffering from epilepsy
https://youtu.be/M5RAWdMb5Lg


Hogo told us a secret that an elf is sitting in the light. I guess this elf is sitting on a pipe through which current flows and looks at the pressure sensor (voltage) and duct sensor (current) on this pipe. When the pressure goes down according to the well-known Elf marks, it covers the flap so that the duct sensor has the desired value (this is the blue downtrend line that tends to the red and violet line (which should match) ). Also, the pipe has a certain temperature, which is pleasant to the *** elf, if she gets too hot, the elf becomes uncomfortable and he presses the flap stronger. The last sentence does not apply to the existing situation.





And so, everything works fine as long as the battery is clean and defenseless. But if your own creature sits in the battery ( we call it a troll), then existing situation is possible. Usually a troll controls its section of the pipe, and according to my observations with the Olight protected batteries, it has its own switch installed at the level of the deep blue rectangle. Thus, troll never interferes with the work of an elf, since the latter is engaged in adjustment with a higher voltage.


And here begins the most interesting


If for some reason the troll is very restless and has a trigger threshold at the level of the blue rectangle, which is higher than the red and purple rectangles, then the light will go out before the elf works. But this should not affect the work of the elf, if the troll simply closed the flap and went to sleep until the battery was charged using a human being.


But if the troll was mad, and besides the high threshold of triggering, in addition, trying to inform the person that the energy is low and it will now turn off very soon and he switch is sharply pulled begins to turn on and off often (like a school bell - this video has a loud and sharp sound, do not open it if you are using sound at a high volume level or are sensitive to sharp sounds - This is an electric bell with a sharp and unpleasant sound. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heo1l2Jaczo), in this case, the flashlight can be reset.


There is also the likelihood that the real threshold of an elf is for some reason lower than the ideal threshold of an elf. That is, the purple rectangle is lower than the red rectangle and lower than the blue rectangle of the normal troll shutdown threshold. I marked this option as a purple rectangle with a purple broken line.


Well, find out which of these cases is happening now (or is there a third case that I have no idea about) can only Henry with equipment like an oscilloscope and others. We can only check how these particular Fenix batteries work, if we place them in a light that doesn't have auto-shutdown (i.e usual cheap lantern with resistor instead of a complex driver, or xenon light) and see if there is some kind of blinking in the last moments of the battery, like Eagletaс on Elzette. If you send lights for Henry, maybe is it worth sending those 5 batteries to he look at them?


p.s. - all elves and trolls mentioned in this text, as well as graphs and assumptions are the result of this

and are fiction, any coincidence with real trolls, elves, or graphs are random and have no purpose to cast a shadow on the real trolls, elves and graphs
 
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