Cree XML swap question on generic light

hey guys, quick?

I have a generic 3 D cell flashlight and it currently has an XML in it. Great little light but I was very curious if I can upgrade the LED with something.

70.2?
xhp35hi?

What are my options, if any? I haven't ever messed around with modifying a light but would love to upgrade it. I've done plenty of work on electronic instruments, engines, cars etc so basic rules and skills are solid.

any help is appreciated.


here is a link to a few pictures:

https://m.imgur.com/a/VF3Z1Ta

Aubody lol? Need some guidance from the pros...

I'm not a pro but I'd be glad to just chew the fat rather than leave you hanging. Frankly it would help to have more details to help get the thought process going.

What are you aiming for as an end result, more throw, more raw lumens, etc.? What does your generic 3D light look like now, plastic/metal/twisty/clicky/etc.? What's inside the light driver wise and bezel wise, switch wise, etc. now?

The XHP70.2 and XHP35Hi's emitters you mentioned are both 6V or 12V LEDs, so to make the most of such a swap you need -

(1) an electronics upgrade to a driver that will properly power those emitters (and Boost/Buck/Direct Drive/Linear/etc. depending on your battery choice)
(2) a new LED circuit board since the XM-L mount footprint is different to those two XHP emitters (which are also different from each other)
(3) possible a new reflector to fit, again depending on the light you're starting with (picures would help)
(4) possible a new "pill" to hold all the works (the driver board and the LED emitter mount) because the starting generic host is probably thin aluminum and inadequate to handle the power/heat generated
(5) most likely new batteries if you intend to get the most of the emitter swap.
(6) etc.

If you'd like to do some simple emitter swaps just for fun/experience without the need for any electronics changes, other 3V emitters can be tried. For example an XP-L for perhaps slightly more throw at similar lumens, XP-G for even more throw in a tighter hotspot but with probably less overall lumens output. Perhaps XM-L emitters of different tints to see if you have interest in higher color rendering accuracy or warmer/neutral tint outputs, etc.

My modding journey began with simple emitter swaps as well, trying to upgrade a couple of old Luxeon based lights to the current generation of Cree, so you've got some exciting discoveries ahead.

without knowing what exactly flashlight you have, no way to know if it even worth upgrading

pc_light said:

I'm not a pro but I'd be glad to just chew the fat rather than leave you hanging. Frankly it would help to have more details to help get the thought process going.

What are you aiming for as an end result, more throw, more raw lumens, etc.? What does your generic 3D light look like now, plastic/metal/twisty/clicky/etc.? What's inside the light driver wise and bezel wise, switch wise, etc. now?

The XHP70.2 and XHP35Hi's emitters you mentioned are both 6V or 12V LEDs, so to make the most of such a swap you need -

(1) an electronics upgrade to a driver that will properly power those emitters (and Boost/Buck/Direct Drive/Linear/etc. depending on your battery choice)
(2) a new LED circuit board since the XM-L mount footprint is different to those two XHP emitters (which are also different from each other)
(3) possible a new reflector to fit, again depending on the light you're starting with (picures would help)
(4) possible a new "pill" to hold all the works (the driver board and the LED emitter mount) because the starting generic host is probably thin aluminum and inadequate to handle the power/heat generated
(5) most likely new batteries if you intend to get the most of the emitter swap.
(6) etc.

If you'd like to do some simple emitter swaps just for fun/experience without the need for any electronics changes, other 3V emitters can be tried. For example an XP-L for perhaps slightly more throw at similar lumens, XP-G for even more throw in a tighter hotspot but with probably less overall lumens output. Perhaps XM-L emitters of different tints to see if you have interest in higher color rendering accuracy or warmer/neutral tint outputs, etc.

My modding journey began with simple emitter swaps as well, trying to upgrade a couple of old Luxeon based lights to the current generation of Cree, so you've got some exciting discoveries ahead.

Click to expand...

Appreciate it! It's a generic, lowes special from years ago. 3 D cells, XM-L, no idea elseways. Large head, no zoom.adjustment. Just a big, hefty maglite copy made of aluminum with decent heat sinking around the head considering. Have 3 so I figured I'd try and mod it. Surprisingly good throw and output.

alpg88 said:

without knowing what exactly flashlight you have, no way to know if it even worth upgrading

Click to expand...

It's a generic with no markings sadly.

A pciture (or several) would be worth a thousand words.

Doesn't have to be professional photos, quick phone snap will do, or even a photo from stock footage. Perhaps include a view of the light from front so that we can see the reflector/optic and emitter. A picture of the light taken in as many parts as possible; might as well take one apart now for this purpose since you have three.

The only 3xD light I could find on Lowes currently is the Utilitech 1000 which looks like a descent enough light to start modding. You nevern know, if you post your generic from several years ago, perhaps there are some members who have it and can share how they modded.

I agree with @alpg88, it might not be worth upgrading except if you want to do it for the fun/experience/learning curve.

https://m.imgur.com/a/VF3Z1Ta

pc_light said:

A pciture (or several) would be worth a thousand words.

Doesn't have to be professional photos, quick phone snap will do, or even a photo from stock footage. Perhaps include a view of the light from front so that we can see the reflector/optic and emitter. A picture of the light taken in as many parts as possible; might as well take one apart now for this purpose since you have three.

The only 3xD light I could find on Lowes currently is the Utilitech 1000 which looks like a descent enough light to start modding. You nevern know, if you post your generic from several years ago, perhaps there are some members who have it and can share how they modded.

I agree with @alpg88, it might not be worth upgrading except if you want to do it for the fun/experience/learning curve.

Click to expand...

https://m.imgur.com/a/VF3Z1Ta

yes, it can be moded, heatsink\heatpath seem to be good. driver can be replaced, reflector can be drilled out for larger led, but no 100% it will focus correctly, most likely it will but no guarantee. you'll have to use cells other than D alkaline to get full power out of pretty much any other led, even existing led could be brighter if you use nimh D cells, and simple linear driver. so yes there are several ways to mod it, and it seem to be worth moding.

pc_light said:

A pciture (or several) would be worth a thousand words.

Doesn't have to be professional photos, quick phone snap will do, or even a photo from stock footage. Perhaps include a view of the light from front so that we can see the reflector/optic and emitter. A picture of the light taken in as many parts as possible; might as well take one apart now for this purpose since you have three.

The only 3xD light I could find on Lowes currently is the Utilitech 1000 which looks like a descent enough light to start modding. You nevern know, if you post your generic from several years ago, perhaps there are some members who have it and can share how they modded.

I agree with @alpg88, it might not be worth upgrading except if you want to do it for the fun/experience/learning curve.

Click to expand...

alpg88 said:

yes, it can be moded, heatsink\heatpath seem to be good. driver can be replaced, reflector can be drilled out for larger led, but no 100% it will focus correctly, most likely it will but no guarantee. you'll have to use cells other than D alkaline to get full power out of pretty much any other led, even existing led could be brighter if you use nimh D cells, and simple linear driver. so yes there are several ways to mod it, and it seem to be worth moding.

Click to expand...

where would be a good place to start? I have three just like it so I could afford to make a mistake. Would love to throw a cxb3590 in one for shingles.. just have no idea where to start lol. Figure the logical thing to do would be try a 70.2 or something more similarly sized. Just don't know as far as 6v, 12v etc how to select batteries etc. would love to break into modding and mess with this guy in my spare time.

4Pro said:

where would be a good place to start? I have three just like it so I could afford to make a mistake. Would love to throw a cxb3590 in one for shingles.. just have no idea where to start lol. Figure the logical thing to do would be try a 70.2 or something more similarly sized. Just don't know as far as 6v, 12v etc how to select batteries etc. would love to break into modding and mess with this guy in my spare time.

Click to expand...

That looks like a pretty beefy metal body for heat sinking, good starting point.

I don't know much about large COB emitters like the cxb3590. Size wise the star looks like the 20mm PCB and relatively common sized driver (measure both before ordering parts.)

If I were going to try a XHP70.2, I would try something like a 6V boost driver (or 6V Linear driver) and a nice neutral tint XHP70.2, driven off of the original 3xD cells. The input (and hence output) would be limited with D-cells. I probably won't try pushing much more than 2-amps with the driver, NiMH cells probably preferred over alkaline batteries.

I am personally uncomfortable juggling multiple Lithium ion rechargeables, particularly ones that could fit D-cell sizing, otherwise one could swap for some higher capacity lithium ion cells (probably with spacers/adapters; e.g. 2x26650 w/spacer) and consider higher current buck driver.

Just some thoughts from one beginner to another.

^^ what he said.
you could also build a holder 2 parallel 18650, or even 4 if tube allows.

pc_light said:

That looks like a pretty beefy metal body for heat sinking, good starting point.

I don't know much about large COB emitters like the cxb3590. Size wise the star looks like the 20mm PCB and relatively common sized driver (measure both before ordering parts.)

If I were going to try a XHP70.2, I would try something like a 6V boost driver (or 6V Linear driver) and a nice neutral tint XHP70.2, driven off of the original 3xD cells. The input (and hence output) would be limited with D-cells. I probably won't try pushing much more than 2-amps with the driver, NiMH cells probably preferred over alkaline batteries.

I am personally uncomfortable juggling multiple Lithium ion rechargeables, particularly ones that could fit D-cell sizing, otherwise one could swap for some higher capacity lithium ion cells (probably with spacers/adapters; e.g. 2x26650 w/spacer) and consider higher current buck driver.

Just some thoughts from one beginner to another.

Click to expand...

you're the man, thank you! I am trying to educate myself on the higher voltage d cell variants. Seeing some that are 3.6-3.7v. I'm thinking three of those and a boost depending on what led I gonafter and I may have "something".

how does the boost driver "know" what to do? Do I have to solder it a particular way or donthey just work with what they've got? Ie if I run d cells and the boost with a xhp70.2, what happens if I then decide to try the higher output batteries?



You rock!

4Pro said:

you’re the man, thank you! I am trying to educate myself on the higher voltage d cell variants. Seeing some that are 3.6-3.7v. I’m thinking three of those and a boost depending on what led I gonafter and I may have “something”.

how does the boost driver “know” what to do? Do I have to solder it a particular way or donthey just work with what they’ve got? Ie if I run d cells and the boost with a xhp70.2, what happens if I then decide to try the higher output batteries?

You rock!

Click to expand...

At this point since you're pointed in a particular direction, I'd take the time to start reading through the volumes of threads on CPF for more info. For details pertaining to Driver types, take a look at threads explaining "Boost", "Buck" and "Linear/regulated" drivers.

In summary, the type of driver one chooses depends on input voltage and output voltage.
- Boost Drivers step-up/raise the input voltage of the batteries to the appropriate voltage required by an emitter.
- Buck Drivers step-down/lower the input voltage of the batteries to the appropriate voltage required by an emitter.
- Linear/regulated and Direct Drive drivers work with battery input voltage close to that required by an emitter.

So if you start with 3x1.5V=4.5 (in series), you'd need a "boost driver" to step-up to 6V required for a XHP70.2. If on the other hand you were to attempt a 3x3.6V=10.8V (in series) battery configuration, you'd instead be looking at a step-down of the voltage from 10.8 to 6V with a "buck driver".

There are many nuances to the above statement, because XHP70.2 LED's can also be mounted on special MCPCB's configured to feed the LED at 12V. In which case you would again be looking to boost from 10.8V to 12V. But a driver will boost to 6V or 12V but not both (in most cases.) (There are also combination Boost/buck drivers but they are rare and not as efficient as one or the other.)

So DO NOT use 3x3.6V battery combination in your light designed to boost 4.5V unless you know your driver is designed to also buck or step-down the input voltage; or you're proposing to use 3 @3.6V in parallel so that the input voltage remains 3.6V. A boost driver only know how to step-up the voltage from one lower range to a higher range WITHIN it's design. If one were to put 3x3.6V cells in series, it would NOT know what to do and likely burn up.

CPF's vast threads will now be your best source of info.

boost driver does not just increase voltage, there is a trade off, it pulls more amps from cells, so if you need 12v 2A on the output, from 3x1,5v cells, input current will have to be about 6A. no alkalines will ever provide needed current, nimh are outdated stuff, go with li ion, you need 1 cell or as many as you can fit, but all wired in parallel.
1 nimh D cell has 10ah, (aka 10000mAh) and 1,2v, weights 160gr. 1 li ion 18650 is 3,6v and around 3ah, weights 50gr. no reason to use nimh anymore, unless there is a very specific reason, but in your case, i do not see one.

I'm with @alpg88 in terms of checking out the gains from just trying lithium batteries (in parallel) as a start. Perhaps open the "pill" to reveal the driver to see whether it's anything more than a simple resistor and direct drive off of the batteries.

If direct drive using simple resistors, you should be able to perform some calculations of the resistance drop, and determine whether they need to be tweaked for a lower starting voltage from the lithiums. If there's a more complicated driver circuit you might be able to consider whether a "sense resistor mod" is an option. (See threads on both types of mods.)

Since you have multiples of the same light you'll be able to do A-to-B comparisons of Original-to-Mod results. May I suggest taking DC amp measurements such as from the tailcap end as well. These reading will give you something of a reference point for the current being drawn from the batteries which will give you an idea of the current being fed to the emitter as a result of any changes (efficiencies and other resistances aside.) (See threads for how to take current measurements.)

The journey begins!

alpg88 said:

boost driver does not just increase voltage, there is a trade off, it pulls more amps from cells, so if you need 12v 2A on the output, from 3x1,5v cells, input current will have to be about 6A. no alkalines will ever provide needed current, nimh are outdated stuff, go with li ion, you need 1 cell or as many as you can fit, but all wired in parallel.
1 nimh D cell has 10ah, (aka 10000mAh) and 1,2v, weights 160gr. 1 li ion 18650 is 3,6v and around 3ah, weights 50gr. no reason to use nimh anymore, unless there is a very specific reason, but in your case, i do not see one.

Click to expand...

Why Parallel? Im not sure how I could manage to wire 3 D cells in a tube like that in parallel. I was looking at these: https://www.batteryjunction.com/xl-...y5eeKuWnjT1USNY9YIIXOtHOnrjX7wlQaAt_SEALw_wcB

with this: https://www.taskled.com/techhboost.shtml

and this: https://www.cree.com/led-components/media/documents/ds-CXB3590.pdf


Although, the 17mm mtn electronics boost with the 70.2 is probably what I need to and or "should" try... I say try because this could all be a travesty lol.

I don't have any experience with what you're proposing, so any comments I'm offering are based on observation only.

(1) the higher voltage is not a problem but the Lithium Thionyl Chloride batteries will not supply enough current
- "[FONT=&quot]Maximum Current: Continuous 230mA; Pulse 400mA[/FONT]".

(2) for that driver IMR type lithiums-ion cells might be needed for the 1.42-5.37 (in) A

(3) presumably the end result will be maximum flood lumens because the large COB (35mm x 35mm) will be mounted in the head without a reflector or optic.

Good luck and looking forwards to seeing results.

4Pro said:

Why Parallel? Im not sure how I could manage to wire 3 D cells in a tube like that in parallel. I was looking at these: https://www.batteryjunction.com/xl-205f.html?gclid=Cj0KCQiAsdHhBRCwARIsAAhRhslyQ7YN5wyI9AmlDCsexvty5eeKuWnjT1USNY9YIIXOtHOnrjX7wlQaAt_SEALw_wcB

Click to expand...

nope, those are none rechargeable very low draw cells, they wont work for you.

with this: https://www.taskled.com/techhboost.shtml

Click to expand...

taskled is too big to fit, way too big. it also needs to be heatsinked, it wont work in your light. you parallel cells to get more capacity. taskled needs at least 8V so you'll need 3 li ions to work, (2 will work at first but once voltage drops below 8 it wont work,

Although, the 17mm mtn electronics boost with the 70.2 is probably what I need to and or "should" try... I say try because this could all be a travesty lol.

Click to expand...

yes that is what you need. but it takes only 1 cell, (or as many as you can fit in parallel) and only works with 6v version of 70.2

alpg88 said:

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nope, those are none rechargeable very low draw cells, they wont work for you.



taskled is too big to fit, way too big. it also needs to be heatsinked, it wont work in your light. you parallel cells to get more capacity. taskled needs at least 8V so you'll need 3 li ions to work, (2 will work at first but once voltage drops below 8 it wont work,



yes that is what you need. but it takes only 1 cell, (or as many as you can fit in parallel) and only works with 6v version of 70.2

Click to expand...

Finally actually found a series AA-d Cell adapter so!, I'd be able to run 9 AA batteries in place of the D cells.. So then, would I need a boost driver or could I just get a 12v 70.2 and let her ride? Don't mind buying the boost.

you do not need aa adapter.
get 6v 70.2
use this driver http://www.mtnelectronics.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=958
use 1 li ion cell.