HDS Rotary w 16340, steps down @~3.4v and shuts off @~3.0v, this is normal

jon_slider

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The light: HDS 200 lumen Rotary w XP-G Cool White from 2011, using firmware 2.0,

The battery: Protected 16340 Lumintop USB rechargeable battery, that was previously discharged to 3.56v

Tools used. Multimeter to check battery voltage, Light meter (calibrated to the HDS 200) to measure lumen changes, iPhone stopwatch. Times are approximate (I use ~ to mean "about"). Lumens are approximate.

starting lumens: 202 on my meter (spec for the light is 200 max)

8 minutes later the Rotary stepped down for the first time to 130 lumens.

When the HDS first started stepping down, the battery tested at 3.39v (it rebounded to 3.42v within ~10 seconds).

Reinserted battery into HDS Rotary and left the light running until it turned itself off ~52 minutes later, per the following log:

turned HDS on maximum, light started at ~194 lumens
~ 2 minutes later it stepped down to ~130
~ 2 minutes later it gave a double blink, still at ~130 lumens
~ 1.5 minutes later it stepped down to ~91 lumens
~ 1.5 minutes later it stepped down to ~64 lumens
~ 1.5 minutes later it stepped down to ~45 lumens
~ 1.5 minutes later it stepped down to ~29 lumens
~ 1.5 minutes later it stepped down to ~20 lumens
~ 1.5 minutes later it stepped down to ~14 lumens
~ 1.5 minutes later it stepped down to ~10 lumens
~ 1.5 minutes later it stepped down to ~7 lumens
~ 1.5 minutes later it stepped down to ~5 lumens
less than 1.5 minutes later it stepped down to ~3.5 lumens
~ 1 min later double blink
~ 10 seconds later it stepped down to ~2.3 lumens
~ 30 seconds later double blink, still at ~2.3 lumens
~ 1 min later step down to ~1.6 lumens
~ 1 min later double blink, still at ~1.6 lumens
~ 1 min later steps down to ~1.1 lumens
~ 1 min later double blink, still at ~1.1 lumens
~ 45 seconds later steps down to ~0.8 lumens
~ 1.5 min later double blink, still at ~0.8 lumens
~ 1 min 45 seconds later, steps down to ~0.5 lumens
~ 3.5 min later, steps down to ~0.4 lumens
~ 2 min later double blink, still at ~0.4 lumens
~ 1.5 min later, steps down to ~0.3 lumens
~ 2 min later, double blink, still at ~0.3 lumens
~ 1.5 min later, steps down to ~0.2 lumens
~ 1.75 min later, double blink, still at ~0.2 lumens
~ 1 min later stop down to ~ 0.1 lumens
~ 7 min later step down to ~ 0.08 lumens
~ 1.5 min later, double blink, still at ~0.08 lumens (matches spec for this firmware, minimum 0.08 lumen)

about 30 seconds later the light turned off completely.. end of test

Battery voltage when the HDS Rotary turned itself off at end of test: 2.98v


My HDS did not blink once per second on lowest mode. I think it would like to visit Papa Henry for a tuneup. :)

The manual says:
Your flashlight will slowly blink once a second on the lowest brightness level when the battery is no longer capable of powering any of the steady brightness levels.

Caution:
continued use of a rechargeable battery after your flashlight begins blinking once a second on the lowest brightness level can result in sudden darkness because your flashlight will eventually turn itself off to protect the rechargeable battery.
 
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Tejasandre

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HDS Rotary w 16340, steps down @~3.4v and shuts off @~3.0v

Misread original post. Carry on
 
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scout24

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Re: HDS Rotary w 16340, steps down @~3.4v and shuts off @~3.0v

You started this test at 3.56 resting volts in the RCR cell, correct? If so, I don't think 52 minutes of light is too shabby...
 
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thermal guy

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Re: HDS Rotary w 16340, steps down @~3.4v and shuts off @~3.0v

Ya that seems kinda low 🤔
 

jon_slider

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Re: HDS Rotary w 16340, steps down @~3.4v and shuts off @~3.0v

You started this test at 3.56 resting volts in the RCR cell, correct? If so, I don't think 52 minutes of light is too shabby...

better than that
the runtime after step downs started at a resting voltage of 3.42 volts was about 52 minutes, ending at 0.08 lumens

another way to look at it was, I had 15 minutes to find the spare battery, before the brightness dropped below 10 lumens.

I think the system is brilliant. It gives lots of warning time After the step downs start.

I also like that the system turns the light off at 3v, long before the 2.7v protection circuit kicks in.
 
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JoeRodge

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Re: HDS Rotary w 16340, steps down @~3.4v and shuts off @~3.0v

It sounds like a battery with low capacity and POSSIBLY high IR? :shrug:
 

jon_slider

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Re: HDS Rotary w 16340, steps down @~3.4v and shuts off @~3.0v

I don't think 52 minutes of light is too shabby...

I agree completely :)


It sounds like a battery with low capacity and POSSIBLY high IR? :shrug:

I was not testing runtime on minimum

The light was being asked to produce the Maximum amount of lumens the drained battery would allow. The test did not start with a full battery.

The rotary dial was set to Maximum, and stayed there, and the light was left on, from the time the step downs started @ 3.4v.

The point of the test was to confirm
1. At what voltage stepdowns start (3.4v)
2. At what voltage the light turns off (3.0v)

there was lots of time to swap batteries
 
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fyrstormer

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Re: HDS Rotary w 16340, steps down @~3.4v and shuts off @~3.0v

You can't determine what the step-down voltage is without access to the firmware. The instant you shut off the light to remove the battery to check its voltage, the voltage will stop sagging due to the reduced load.

In my RC hobby, we use lithium polymer batteries that have separate plugs for balance-charging the individual cells inside each pack. Because those balance plugs are separate, it's possible to check the voltage on each cell using a specially-designed digital voltmeter that connects to the balance plug while the battery is still powering the vehicle. Even with the time savings of not needing to disconnect the main battery plug from the vehicle before checking the battery's voltage, it's still impossible to see exactly what the battery's voltage was when the LVC circuit engaged, unless you have extra circuitry that can monitor the battery voltage and relay it back to the radio controller in realtime.

Generally speaking, you just have to take the manufacturer's word for it when they tell you what the LVC voltage or step-down voltage setting is. If your battery appears to be stepping-down or cutting-off at a significantly higher voltage, that means your battery is old or cheap or defective, and its voltage is sagging more than normal when a load is applied to it.
 
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jon_slider

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Re: HDS Rotary w 16340, steps down @~3.4v and shuts off @~3.0v

I agree the voltage you see under load is different. I did not measure that.

When my HDS started stepping down I took the battery out and it measured about 3.4v

I say "about" 3.Xv, because I saw the battery rebound, by about 0.02v, above the lowest voltage I saw on my meter. And I agree the battery started rebounding, slightly, before I had time to take the meter reading.

Ive done the same test before, with similar results.


When my HDS turned off and I took the battery out, it measured about 3.0v


I use the symbol ~ because the numbers are approximate.. I would say with a margin of error of +-0.02 volts


The battery works normally. It does not step down early.
The HDS step down system did its job, and prevented tripping the protection on the battery.
 
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RCS1300

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Re: HDS Rotary w 16340, steps down @~3.4v and shuts off @~3.0v

You can't determine what the step-down voltage is without access to the firmware. The instant you shut off the light to remove the battery to check its voltage, the voltage will stop sagging due to the reduced load.

Agreed. There is battery surface charge and then there is battery charge under load. They are very different in measure and meaning.
 

jon_slider

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Re: HDS Rotary w 16340, steps down @~3.4v and shuts off @~3.0v

Yes, I measure battery voltage outside the light.
 
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peter yetman

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Re: HDS Rotary w 16340, steps down @~3.4v and shuts off @~3.0v

As long as you are consistent, YOUR results are comparable.
As you are the only person prepared to do this, YOUR results are also very useful.
Thanks,
Peter
 

fyrstormer

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Re: HDS Rotary w 16340, steps down @~3.4v and shuts off @~3.0v

The HDS step down system did its job, and prevented tripping the protection on the battery.
Ah, I misunderstood the intent of your post. I thought you were complaining that the step-down was preventing you from using the battery's full charge.
 

jon_slider

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Re: HDS Rotary w 16340, steps down @~3.4v and shuts off @~3.0v

Thank you for letting me know my purpose was unclear. I appreciate it. I added the phrase "this is normal" to the title.

The purpose of my test was to determine the Voltage, measured outside the battery, at which the HDS Elf starts saving power by stepping down the brightness of the light, so that the battery life will be extended, at a dimmer output, in order to give the operator time to get to a safe place to change batteries.

I wanted to define the voltage at which step down normally happens. And I wanted to determine the voltage at which the HDS turns itself off, which took more than 45 minutes of declining brightness, after step down started.

I offer 3.4v as a baseline reference, so others can determine if their battery is stepping down at a significantly higher voltage.(above 3.5v)


RCS1300 has posted that he is concerned his Fenix batteries step down too soon, and he had locator flash come on during one of the short runtimes.
see the thread RCS1300 started about his batteries:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/v...-16340-Lithium-Ion-battery-testing-in-the-HDS
RCS1300 said:
Battery 3 = 40 minutes run time - before it shut off and the Locator Flash came on

Note that during that test of unusually short runtime, the Locator Flash came on. iow, the light reset itself during the test. RCS1300 has started 2 different threads in the past 2 months, trying to determine if the cause was the firmware or the battery. To me it sounds like there may be a power supply issue.


All my 16340 batteries are protected, I have Fenix, Olight, and Lumintop versions. My HDS has never triggered the protection circuit in any of them. And my HDS has never restarted itself due to a problem with a battery, nor due to firmware, nor due to power supply. My HDS is normal.


Hogo reported that "a few" of the 2700k lights did not make the cut, and mentions moving the LED to a new power supply.
see:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...DS-GROUP-BUY&p=5219690&viewfull=1#post5219690

Modernflame (219b 4500k), d16avo (219c 2700k), and RCS1300 (219b 4000k and 219b 4500k) have reported intermittent restarts of their HDS. Hogo told Toads (219c 4000k), who reported his light fails to go to full power sometimes, to send his light to Henry to check the power supply.
see
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/v...e-this-issue&p=5265888&viewfull=1#post5265888
It is the power supply, and won't fix itself. Sometimes the elf just needs a good beating... or replacing.
All those lights were purchased summer 2018, there are 4 reports from people having issues, but only one of them has reported sending the light Henry. It had a bad power supply.

In addition usdiver reports 2 of his lights (I dont know which LEDs and timeframe of purchase) have occasionally reset themselves.

the thread RCS1300 started about firmware 2.18, helped uncover the way to determine if a light is restarting itself: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?452737-2-18-HDS-software-anyone-have-this-issue

As a result of that firmware thread, Modernflame sent his 4500k light to Henry, who determined it had a bad power supply.

Moral of the story, if your HDS is not working normally, send it to Henry.
 
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peter yetman

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Re: HDS Rotary w 16340, steps down @~3.4v and shuts off @~3.0v

I completely see your point, John.
If the only way we mere mortals can measure our celll voltage is outside of the light, there's little point in giving the under load voltage, as we will never be able to use that result in the real world.
This way we can all have an idea of whether our lights are performing correctly or not.
P
 
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