Exploding Batteries

Marion David Poff · #1 07-21-2007, 01:10 AM

Howdy,

I am interested in exploding batteries, and I would be happy to search for threads....

But, I keep getting an error message, and so the search function is not working for me....

If you could be so kind as to post some links, etc.....

Marion

FILIPPO · #2 07-21-2007, 02:49 AM

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...ight=exploding

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...ight=exploding

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...ight=exploding

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...ight=exploding

......

there are too many thread about batts. explosions.
here you are the link with search: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...archid=2572243
I don't know if you can read it...

I recive the same error message if I search :" batteries explosions"
don't know why

good reading...LOL

LuxLuthor · #3 07-21-2007, 03:12 PM

Couple other threads of relevance, and good safety reminders to those who may not know.

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...d.php?t=152013
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...28#post1916528
http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/sho...d.php?t=157673

senna94 · #4 07-21-2007, 04:14 PM

All of those threads are excellent and provide many hours of interesting reading. For simplicity sake though I think we should have a simple list of dos and don'ts of battery safety. Someone with far more experience than me should compile this list. Perhaps it already exists and I just haven't found it.

After reading those threads I am afraid to go near my flashlights!!!!!!!!!!

LuxLuthor · #5 07-21-2007, 04:41 PM

Senna, I think that is an excellent suggestion...but it would take someone of 'impeachable' authority and experience such as Buchmann (of Battery University) to do it....but under the kind of scrutiny and expertise that you see on this forum, it would be hard to list all the "do's and don'ts" that would cover all the relevant nuances, and have it stand on its own merits.

Remember that REPORTED battery explosions are still exceedingly rare. While there was just a post about Milwaukee Tools recalling NiCad packs, I think the biggest concern is over the dangers of Lithium Cobalt Ion (& RC 'LiPo') batteries because of the explosive/fire/thermal runaway potential.

After all the reading and posting I have done about Lithium cells (which I ONLY started doing in ernest this spring)....I think the biggest danger lies with using UNPROTECTED cells, especially IN SERIES, and ESPECIALLY IF CHARGING IN SERIES & EVEN MORE SO WITH CHARGERS THAT DO NOT TERMINATE CURRENT ONCE CELLS REACH 4.15 TO 4.2 VOLTS.

Other simple guidelines that are more geared to Lithium cells are:

Always use Protected Li-Ion cells. At least follow this until you have spent the time reading about, and have had some experience using Li-Ion cells. If you then use Unprotected cells, make sure you check voltages before and after charging, and follow other sensible precautions commensurate with their lack of protection circuits.

Stop using a light when you first notice dimming.

Understand the pro's and con's, and workings of your charger.

Attend to the charging. Do not succumb to the Ron Popille Rotisserie: "Set It and Forget It" strategy when charging Lithiums....or do it somewhere (fireplace/outside) where nothing gets harmed if you do forget. Tom (SilverFox) has said many times that if he has to go run an errand, he unplugs the chargers and restarts when he gets back.

Charge in an area that maximizes safety if something goes wrong. If you do not have a garage or fireplace, at least get some bricks to place batteries on, and have some some kind of ventilation available.

Many common fire extinguishers will not work with a Lithium metal fire, nor do you want to stand around in a moment of panic trying to figure out what to do, or breathing in the fumes--so have your sand/water/appropriate fire extinguisher sitting nearby.

My strategy during warmer weather is to charge in the garage on concrete after removing all flammables, and in the event of problem, pull the charger cord from wall and hit the garage opener door as I exit.

These are just a few things off the top of my head, and compared to the many experts in the field of batteries, some of whom are members here....I am a hapless beginner noob. Once you have spent the time reading, using, and watching your cells, you develop confidence....but like hazards of guns or electricity, assuming Lithium batteries are just like your good old Alkaline cells is not a good way to start out. Once you have spent some time learning about guns or electricity you develop confidence, but also you learn the importance of safety measures that the beginner may not appreciate. Same with Lithiums.

Fortunately, there are new Lithium Ion technologies that are virtually eliminating these fire/explosion/thermal runaway issues.... AW has already come out with a Saphion type of Lithium Ferrous Phosphate cell, and will likely move to include that new safe technology in other cell sizes we all want.

Illum · #6 07-21-2007, 05:51 PM

if your a cr123a powered flashlight user...

INVEST IN A ZTS TESTER!

it could save your life!

jumpstat · #7 07-21-2007, 05:55 PM

ZTS tester states 3V lithiums, can it perform tests on 3.7 rechargeables safely?

Illum · #8 07-21-2007, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jumpstat

ZTS tester states 3V lithiums, can it perform tests on 3.7 rechargeables safely?

on the normal ZTS, not on the mini....http://www.lighthound.com/index.asp?...OD&ProdID=1793

but its only good for RCR123A, 18500, 17650, 18650

half-watt · #9 07-21-2007, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jumpstat

ZTS tester states 3V lithiums, can it perform tests on 3.7 rechargeables safely?

Yes, depending on the model. Just did some tests on them today using the ZTS MBT-1 (available from Lighthound.com - a better price than some other OnLine Retailers).

enLIGHTenment · #10 07-21-2007, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuxLuthor

Many common fire extinguishers will not work with a Lithium metal fire, nor do you want to stand around in a moment of panic trying to figure out what to do, or breathing in the fumes--so have your sand/water/appropriate fire extinguisher sitting nearby.

Water is not a good fire management option for lithium batteries. It's simply not effective on lithium fires.

Further, in the event of batteries igniting while under charge, there's also 110v in the charger to worry about. Don't even think about throwing water on a burning charger unless the charger has been unplugged first.

Use a bucket of dry sand or, if no 110v power is present, a class D fire extinguisher rated for lithium.

LuxLuthor · #11 07-21-2007, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by enLIGHTenment

Water is not a good fire management option for lithium batteries. It's simply not effective on lithium fires.

Further, in the event of batteries igniting while under charge, there's also 110v in the charger to worry about. Don't even think about throwing water on a burning charger unless the charger has been unplugged first.

Use a bucket of dry sand or, if no 110v power is present, a class D fire extinguisher rated for lithium.

I made that all quite clear in my last bullet 2nd paragraph post. The water is in case there is a fire that spreads to fabric, wood, or some secondary item that may be burning. I never said to throw it on the charger or Lithium batteries.

Like I started out saying, anyone who tried to make a list of safety items...if they forgot to make sure and say to unplug the charger first before contemplating using water for any other secondary burning fire their post would get picked apart....so it's a pretty hopeless idea unless you are someone like Buchmann and post it as a fixed HTML page.

Good Luck, Senna, and keep reading.

Illum · #12 07-21-2007, 09:02 PM

class D is a lab grade fire extinguisher and you need a license for it....as its contents are not exactly safe to handle either...

fighting metal fires is basically poison against poison

SilverFox · #13 07-21-2007, 10:43 PM

If I might offer a small point of clairification...

Batteries don't explode... They rapidly vent, sometimes accompanied by flame.

Tom

Illum · #14 07-22-2007, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverFox

If I might offer a small point of clairification...

Batteries don't explode... They rapidly vent, sometimes accompanied by flame.

Tom

oh...might want to look back on some pictures...cells that eject entire guts isn't just venting...its stark raving mad and exploding like a bullet in one direction

I suppose its debatable

senna94 · #15 07-22-2007, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illum_the_nation

if your a cr123a powered flashlight user...

INVEST IN A ZTS TESTER!

it could save your life!

So,if you use a ZTS tester and match remaining capacity of like cells and also use a volt meter to make sure they have the same voltage you should be safe, correct????

Quickbeam · #16 07-22-2007, 10:43 AM

Info on my site, with additional links at the bottom of the page.

http://www.flashlightreviews.com/features/123burst.htm

senna94 · #17 07-22-2007, 11:04 AM

Thanks for the link and info Quickbeam. Clear concise and logical suggestions that will dramatically reduce the chances of having a problem with 123 cells.
As stated on your site there is no way of reducing the risk 100%,but a few simple steps can greatly reduce the odds of that happening.

Thanks!!!!!

Illum · #18 07-22-2007, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by senna94

So,if you use a ZTS tester and match remaining capacity of like cells and also use a volt meter to make sure they have the same voltage you should be safe, correct????

if you would prefer yes...just don't set the tolerances too high

I just use the ZTS alone, theres always one cell in a box of surefires that will give me multiple readings, that cell would be for a single celled light

EDIT:
I PMed Quickbeam about the hazard on draining down cr123as and I was told after numerous full cycle tests including draining cr123As to exhaustion for runtime purposes and has never ran into an explosion

half-watt · #19 07-22-2007, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quickbeam

Info on my site, with additional links at the bottom of the page.

http://www.flashlightreviews.com/features/123burst.htm

QB,

i just want to say how much your website was, and though not adding new reviews at this time, still is appreciated by the Light/Ultralight backpacking community. We've referred to your website for a few years now as the final court of appeal in all matters related to lighting. Great job!

Thank you for your years of service, much time, and great effort you put into your FLR website.

Many thanks.

Illum · #20 07-22-2007, 01:50 PM

heres another link to add, this was from today

My Aleph 1 Exploded and cought on fire.

paulr · #21 07-22-2007, 02:00 PM

As far as I can tell, the ZTS is basically a conveniently packaged load tester. It puts a resistive load across the battery and then lights LED's corresponding to set voltage points. A handy gadget if you want to sort a lot of batteries in a hurry, but you can do the same thing with a load resistor and your existing voltmeter if you want to save yourself some cash at the expense of some convenience.

BB · #22 07-22-2007, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuxLuthor

My strategy during warmer weather is to charge in the garage on concrete after removing all flammables, and in the event of problem, pull the charger cord from wall and hit the garage opener door as I exit.

I would like to give a big WARNING NOT TO CHARGE LITHIUM CELLS ON CONCRETE unless there are zero flammable items nearby...

Concrete "spalls" when exposed to high/concentrated heat... Spalling is when little chunks of concrete are sent flying (as if from a small explosive charge) from the differential heating of the concrete. A small amount of lithium could easily be sent flaming 3-4 feet straight up or sideways (larger amounts--don't I don't know how far--probably lots of variables)...

Ask how I know? As kids, my Dad would sometimes bring magnesium home for use to "play with". One day I did this on the concrete steps and had a very pretty pyrotechnic display from shooting concrete and flying/burning magnesium.

-Bill

LuxLuthor · #23 07-22-2007, 03:38 PM

Senna, my previous posts here were more directed at rechargeable Lithium Ion cells. If all you are really asking about is disposable, small 123a cells....that is in another category.

[Humor] In reading the recent Barefootone 'event' I'm hoping people from this thread will ask him to correct the subject from "exposion" to a more benign "venting" and point out that it is a good thing he did not throw any water near the light, how he should have had a Class D fire extinguisher, not breathe or touched anything, and remind him how rare it is to be struck by lightning, have a meteor come crashing through his house, or have his computer monitor burst into flames....in other words, for him not to worry as long as he has the: "One ZTS 'ring' to rule them all"

[/Humor]

Ya gotta love the irony.

LuxLuthor · #24 07-22-2007, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BB

I would like to give a big WARNING NOT TO CHARGE LITHIUM CELLS ON CONCRETE unless there are zero flammable items nearby...

Concrete "spalls" when exposed to high/concentrated heat... Spalling is when little chunks of concrete are sent flying (as if from a small explosive charge) from the differential heating of the concrete. A small amount of lithium could easily be sent flaming 3-4 feet straight up or sideways (larger amounts--don't I don't know how far--probably lots of variables)...

Ask how I know? As kids, my Dad would sometimes bring magnesium home for use to "play with". One day I did this on the concrete steps and had a very pretty pyrotechnic display from shooting concrete and flying/burning magnesium.

-Bill

See, now that is some new, and interesting information that I had never heard of before. I never even have heard of the word "spalls" before, so thanks, Bill

I make sure to remove all flammables from my garage floor (or use the fireplace), but now I suppose if this information is considered you almost would need to charge insiide a LipoSack, or on a small box of sand. At some point dumping the Lithium Cobalt for the new Saphion (LiFeSO4/Emoli/A123) technology in various Li-Ion sizes cannot get here fast enough.

Braddah_Bill · #25 07-22-2007, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marion David Poff

Howdy,

I am interested in exploding batteries, and I would be happy to search for threads....

But, I keep getting an error message, and so the search function is not working for me....

If you could be so kind as to post some links, etc.....

Marion

g36pilot · #26 07-23-2007, 08:03 PM

-deleted-

g36pilot · #27 07-23-2007, 08:06 PM

LuxLuthor · #28 07-23-2007, 09:34 PM

Holy Moly....g36pilot....that is one heck of a resource post you just made.....thanks in advance of checking all those links. I recognize some of them.

g36pilot · #29 07-24-2007, 06:24 AM

Thanks LL. I merely collected the work and misadventures of others for reference.

And once again, thanks to CPFer's Newbie, Silverfox, incident reporters, numerous other members, and battery/flashlight retailers (for test material support) for the education relative to our applications.

DM51 · #30 07-25-2007, 05:39 AM

Here's another_one, posted just a few hours ago.