# Coronavirus - II



## Empath

This is a continuation of this thread. The topic is welcome here. Political discord isn't. For that use our Underground Board.


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## RedLED

I tried signing up for that weeks ago, and never received an activation E-Mail.


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## bykfixer

So today the US may crack gold record status. The 1 million mark. 

Scientists are ceaselessy searching for ways to stop it. Big pharma is searching for a pill to treat it and the wheels on the bus go round and round. 

My community has been deemed an out break area. We were the last in the area and being surrounded by out breaks it was just a matter of time. Nothing on the scale of a Detroit or Philly, but still unsettling to see numbers double overnight 5 days in a row. Like many areas the first cases showed up in the community nursing home. The deaths are also in said nursing home. Shoot for that matter some 80% have been in nursing homes. Community spreads have largely been contained to families. Even in the inner city as folks are doing what is reccomended. 

At the grocery store it looks like folks have grown tired of spagetti and frozen pizza. The canned soups too. The canned tuna, and typically other easy to find items were gone yesterday. Many are wearing masks but not the majority. What was a plethora of individualized masks are now generic light blue dental masks. The kind you can easily blow out a match through. Eh, if it makes folks more at ease I'm all for it. 

There were zero frantic shoppers in the grocery store yesterday. The one guy with enough beer to last most the rest of the summer but looking at the guy he'll probably be buying more before the week is done. If beer stops corona he'll be fine. He mumbled something about "corona balona" when asked "why so much beer friend".……

My governor announced he just got a large shipment of tests from China and will soon be partnering with private labs. Our state is one of those Dr Fauchi spoke of about under utilizing laboratory capacity. Not saying that to be critical, since they were behind the curve on acquiring tests, they did not need a bunch of labs. But the re-open plan hinges on tests, tests, tests. He indicated he hopes to be at 10k per day able by May1.

Prisons are being hit hard. I suppose that is the case everywhere. Hospital staff are being furloughed in the larger communities. What is called congregate settings is where the over whelming majority of cases are and not wide spread in communities thanks to folks self isolating early on. I'd like to see some places be allowed to reopen. Places like golf pro shops, dress shops and out door fruit stands. But to be honest I cannot say I would be inclined to shop at those places just yet. At least for another few weeks in my community. 

The recovery numbers are exploding way faster than cases in some places. Other places father time has not had enough ticks to show that kind of progress. In my community for example, the cases are new so it'll be a few weeks for those numbers to even appear at all. But they will. Meanwhile allergy medicine continues to fly off store shelves as folks who normally power through pollen season want to ensure it's just allergies and not "uh oh"………


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## scout24

In more East Coast news, the USNS Comfort is offloading the last if it's patients and preparing to leave New York.


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## Poppy

I did my senior hour shopping this morning, in NE New Jersey.
Fresh fruits and vegetables were a plenty, but no eggplant! I want to make some Eggplant Rollatini and some pickled eggplant in garlic and olive oil.

Pasta was back, but no three pound packages of skinless boneless chicken breasts, they'll be back.
Frozen pizza was very limited. Maybe a dozen of them, where the cases would hold, I estimate 200.
Unfortunately for me, that was my mission of the day, to get California Pizza Kitchen Pizza for my autistic grandson. There was none.
Fortunately he is highly functional, but has some eating issues.

There was very little in the way of paper goods, a few small packages of TP (I left them because we are not desperate) I did take a 4 pack of paper towels.

There was a fair amount of beef, steaks, and roasts. There was some one pound packages of chopped beef, but there were more 5 and 10 pound vacuum sealed 80% chopped beef, packages. Probably packaged for the restaurant trade.

@ $3.99 a pound, at least they weren't price gouging.


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## Poppy

Senior hour is from 6:00 AM to 7:30 AM.
So I was out early.
I brought the food home, wiped down the cold stuff with disinfectant before putting it away, and then continued on my mission to Target, which online stated it had limited stock of the precious California Pizza Kitchen, pizza. I thought they opened at 7:00 AM and got there a few minutes early, only to find that they open at 8:00.

I went to the Home Depot and picked up some copper fittings and 1/2 pipe to teach my grandson how to sweat fittings for a plumbing merit badge he is working on.

When I came back this is what I saw.









There was still 30 minutes to go, and they were standing in the rain!

Tomorrow is another day, and the weather will be DRY!


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## bykfixer

Good news on the comfort. Woohoo!! 

Yeah, the restaraunt and cruise ship suppliers had to pivot greatly. I suppose some of the bulk packaging shows up in grocery stores by now. I heard they had gone to home delivery in some places but had not seen it where I am. 

Good news for our community is no new cases in 48 hours. Unfortunatly one more was plucked in the big lottery in the sky though. All who've perished were in the same nursing home. I really feel bad for the families because they are not even allowed to visit those facilities, much less bid a farewell.


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## Poppy

bykfixer said:


> Good news on the comfort. Woohoo!!
> 
> Yeah, the restaraunt and cruise ship suppliers had to pivot greatly. I suppose some of the bulk packaging shows up in grocery stores by now. I heard they had gone to home delivery in some places but had not seen it where I am.
> 
> Good news for our community is no new cases in 48 hours. Unfortunatly one more was plucked in the big lottery in the sky though. All who've perished were in the same nursing home. I really feel bad for the families because they are not even allowed to visit those facilities, much less bid a farewell.


Was there anything said about using the comfort in VA?
I'm just wondering if those beds will be needed. I hope not.

On my way back from Target this morning, I passed by a Senior Village that is large enough that it has assisted living, and nursing home accommodations. There was a line of cars at the front gate. I have never seen that before. I wonder if it is concerned family members pulling their parents out of there before its too late. I haven't been following the news too closely, but I think that the curves are generally headed downward, but the nursing home deaths are on the rise, if not actually on the rise, just too high a percentage.


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## StarHalo

Today the number of US Coronavirus deaths will surpass the number of Americans who died in the Vietnam war.


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## bykfixer

Poppy, I do not anticipate a call for the Comfort here since the capacity of hospitals far exceed cases. Perhaps if it is called upon it would be in a location where MD DC and VA could share it.


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## Hooked on Fenix

John H. Tyson of Tyson Foods issued a warning in an open letter published in a full page ad in the New York Times, Washington Post, and Arkansas Democrat-Gazette. The warning was "The food supply chain is breaking". Apparently, enough food processing plants are closed due to corona virus that the animals are getting killed off or depopulated because they are running out of places to sell them off. This could be a real problem coming up. It's one thing to have a backlog of animals to slaughter once things get back to normal. It's a much worse situation if we have a shortage of meat animals longer term. Will this require another bailout to pay for animal feed and other running costs for farmers to keep them from killing off these animals in order to keep them in business?


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## Kestrel

Perhaps a bit of a stretch to call meat production, the 'food supply chain' ? I keep very close track of my diet & food purchases; over the past few years, I've been eating no more than one pound of meat per month; my food supply chain is based on my ample staples of beans, rice, nuts, dried fruit, and many other bulk foods that store (edit: and transport) exceedingly well.

As far as my vegetables go, I have been buying much more cabbage, since I have had a more difficult time getting one my two favorite vegetables, kale.
Have been doing quite well with apples, potatoes, and onions though - they store very well indeed.


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## bykfixer

If there is a bailout it would go to the farmers who have seen demand for their supply drop in some areas. But the overall (meat) supply chain in America is so diverse it won't likely lead to shortages. 

Price spikes? Perhaps.


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## Dave D

I've just taken a snapshot of aircraft in the air over the USA!

I was shocked at the number, this may explain why the death rate etc is so high in the USA, I'd assumed that you'd locked down you aviation industry.






Taken at 1913 hrs (Central European Time) Monday 27th April 2020.


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## bykfixer

Dave, USA is buying online and air mail has exploded as airlines have gone from people to packages. 

Where my wife works their sales have increased like 5x. In other words when they were a store who sold to walk ins they were struggling to make a profit. Once folks started staying at home they have hired extra folks just to assemble "to go" packages that end up on a UPS truck 3 loads a day versus formerly 2x per week. 

Some 6 million people unemployed is a huge number. Yet 150 million people are still working. Many from home so they have got spare time galore. That and a bunch of folks are spending those stimulous checks. 

However domestic travel is still available here. There just aren't that many people travelling. My company for example has squashed all out of state business regardless of how you get there. My boss lives in one state that butts up to mine. She is not allowed to travel 3 hours to our office right now because she originates out of state. 

But where she lives there are zero cases. Where I am we're approaching 1000 so she aint real anxious to come see us right now. 

Meanwhile Dr Byrx type scarves are selling faster than face masks and toilet paper here.


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## idleprocess

Dave D said:


> I've just taken a snapshot of aircraft in the air over the USA!
> 
> I was shocked at the number, this may explain why the death rate etc is so high in the USA, I'd assumed that you'd locked down you aviation industry.
> Taken at 1913 hrs (Central European Time) Monday 27th April 2020.



I believe that's a fraction of the usual traffic; living rather near one of the major airports in the United States and working from home for going on 8 weeks I've noticed _drastically_ fewer aircraft in the pattern.

While cabin cargo is indeed becoming _a thing_ for airlines starved for revenue, it's not really a substitute for the passengers that airlines are built around. _Forbes_ has a more detailed article on the legalities and specifics of how airlines are approaching the matter.


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## bykfixer

Good read idle. 

I suppose one could easily "over weight" an aircraft if not careful. Books, foods and other items have a lot of weight per area ratio. So I wonder how they ensure they evenly distribute weight.


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## idleprocess

bykfixer said:


> Good read idle.
> 
> I suppose one could easily "over weight" an aircraft if not careful. Books, foods and other items have a lot of weight per area ratio. So I wonder how they ensure they evenly distribute weight.



I gather that the job of an aircraft _loadmaster_ involves a great deal more calculations than one imagines of ground crew. Passengers tend to fall within a predictable weight range and distribution thus aren't so much a challenge unlike cargo where one likely cannot arbitrarily pack one end of the aircraft with feather pillows and the other with barbells.


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## RedLED

Has anyone seen the two Dr.s from Bakersfield, CA on YouTube? What these Dr.s are saying is shocking about how the response to COVID-19 has been.

Must see.


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## Poppy

RedLED said:


> Has anyone seen the two Dr.s from Bakersfield, CA on YouTube? What these Dr.s are saying is shocking about how the response to COVID-19 has been.
> 
> Must see.


If you can't post a link, it didn't happen.

Sorry just a thing from the past. L Ron Hubbard... "If it isn't written, it isn't real."

Actually, in response to your post... I did not see what they said.


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## RedLED

Sorry Poppy, I don't think I'm in their good graces around here, so I did not post it.

But go to YouTube, and type in Bakersfield Doctor's. That is what I did.

Trust me, Poppy, you will like it.


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## Poppy

Red,
Thanks for that.
Who knows, who is right?

Certainly there is the moral issue.
Euthanasia ... good or bad?
Shall we do all we can to protect the populace and minimize the deaths?

OTOH
The economy is in the tank, with few working.
Let this virus run its course... let the weak die, only the strong survive, we'll have a stronger, more vibrant, population... and we can get back to business.
How long can the country survive, going into debt, or printing money?

Will there be a global response, where each country devalues their dollar the same? SO that it all remains the same but not backed by the same amount of Gold?

So lots of questions, and few answers.

It appears to me, that there will be a toe in the water, re-opening of businesses in the next couple of weeks, as a test to see how it goes. I hope it goes well. As we all know, that it will take a couple of weeks to see if things have gotten worse. OK, we are sure they will have gotten worse, but at that point it will have to be determined how much worse is acceptable, or if the re-opening will have to be scaled back.


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## StarHalo

Poppy said:


> Shall we do all we can to protect the populace and minimize the deaths?
> 
> let the weak die, only the strong survive, we'll have a stronger, more vibrant, population... and we can get back to business.



"There are more important things than living...I don’t wanna die. Nobody wants to die. But we gotta take some risks..." - Texas Lt. Governor Dan Patrick

I see a recurrent theme forming.


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## PhotonWrangler

I was at one of the big DIY stores a couple of weeks ago and I was surprised to see a whole palette of toilet paper on display in an aisle. No shortage there.


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## Kestrel

PhotonWrangler said:


> I was at one of the big DIY stores a couple of weeks ago and I was surprised to see a whole palette of toilet paper on display in an aisle.


What color was it?


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## Bullzeyebill

Let''s keep it non politicial here. 

Bill'

.


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## Poppy

StarHalo said:


> "There are more important things than living...I don’t wanna die. Nobody wants to die. But we gotta take some risks..." - Texas Lt. Governor Dan Patrick
> 
> I see a recurrent theme forming.


Star,
You point that out, like you disagree. 
Do you disagree?

We've been told that it will be 18 months for a vaccination, (the current flu bug alters such that the annual flu vaccine is changed twice each year), and that we can't open the economy totally safely until after the vaccination is in place. 

With the above information, the educated mind, must know:
1. the economy can not be shut down for 18 months, and still have the populace survive.
2. should the government attempt to shutdown the economy for 18 months, the populace would revolt
3. Chaos...

Should the economy be opened with some risks, of an increased number of deaths, due to an increase in spread of the virus, OR should the economy be closed so that the police and fireman have to work as volunteers, and the postal workers, and the food delivery workers, and the Amazon workers, and the truck drivers, all have to work out of the goodness of their hearts, For AMERICA! Because 80-90% of America are out of work, and can't pay their bills? When the above are not paid and can't pay their bills, will they continue to work? WHY?

The Federal Government depends upon the income tax of the populace. What happens when the populace is out of work?

I could go on and on, but am too tired.

You're a smart guy... figure it out.


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## StarHalo

Poppy said:


> You're a smart guy... figure it out.



Here's what I'm figuring: Let's say a couple nights from now, you're here typing, comfortable in your quarantine, and your dad calls to tell you that his chest is very tight and it's getting hard to move. That's going to be an automatic visit to the ER, and the ER sure is busy. Later, the nurse mentions in passing that this may be a ventilator situation and that may present some difficulties. Later, the doctor needs to speak with you in private that it's a triage situation, and it comes down to someone who is quite old and infirm versus those who will surely recover better, and we have to work with what we are given, and it's unfortunately not going to be a ventilator situation, but there is a silver lining to this, a greater good that we can think about in this time..

I figure you would not want that doctor to share your sentiment about the strong surviving/a more vibrant population.


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## nbp

Unfortunately the majority who go on a ventilator do not survive, so if you get to that point, it’s almost irrelevant whether you get one or not. So give them to whoever you want, but recognize that many are for lack of a better term, “wasted”. This does not mean I don’t care about those people or want them to die, it’s just the sucky truth. 

Here is something I would like to research as I don’t know a ton about vaccines... if it turns out that recovery from this disease does not impart immunity (so far no hard evidence that it does), how does a vaccine even work for it? Or does it even work? Isn’t the point of the vaccine to give you weakened forms of the virus so your body can develop antibodies to fight the real thing? If you don’t develop an effective immune response from having the disease and successfully fighting it off, does a vaccine work any different? 

If a vaccine will not prove to be effective, then we are waiting around for nothing. If recovering from the disease does not impart immunity then after all this mess we will come out of it in a situation where everyone could just get it again and where the only people now safe from COVID19 are the ones who died from it. That would really be the cherry on top.

So, I need to do some reading to understand that better.


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## StarHalo

nbp said:


> Unfortunately the majority who go on a ventilator do not survive, so if you get to that point, it’s almost irrelevant whether you get one or not. So give them to whoever you want, but recognize that many are for lack of a better term, “wasted”. This does not mean I don’t care about those people or want them to die, it’s just the sucky truth.



Correct, so you would tell the doctor, "Well the ventilator is just a death sentence anyway, so don't bother"? You would want your children to tell the doctor that regarding you? 



nbp said:


> if it turns out that recovery from this disease does not impart immunity (so far no hard evidence that it does), how does a vaccine even work for it?



I would wager it's a viral load problem, so that once you're exposed, you are in fact immune to a limited quantity of the virus, but not a strong influx of it, as experienced by doctors and police. Which would mean the shot should work for you, but it won't completely work for the people who would have to try to heal or protect you..


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## nbp

StarHalo said:


> Correct, so you would tell the doctor, "Well the ventilator is just a death sentence anyway, so don't bother"? You would want your children to tell the doctor that regarding you?
> 
> 
> 
> I would wager it's a viral load problem, so that once you're exposed, you are in fact immune to a limited quantity of the virus, but not a strong influx of it, as experienced by doctors and police. Which would mean the shot should work for you, but it won't completely work for the people who would have to try to heal or protect you..



Bro, I didn’t just make that up, I’m just stating what many doctors have stated in interviews. That having unlimited ventilators isn’t a panacea. It only saves those who are strong enough to survive, and many are not. I’m not saying they shouldn’t ventilate the sick. But early on all the news was that we need warehouses full of ventilators to save lives, and ultimately that isn’t the case. 

Some say making decisions about healthcare resources is “playing God”. But that’s not true. Every time doctors administer medicications or procedures to save lives they are “playing God”, and they are saving people from things that would have killed them if they were left to “nature”. Whether it is appendicitis or a bypass surgery or chemo they are stepping in and saving people that “nature” would have killed. Maybe we should be thankful for all the thousands of lives they do save instead of tearing them apart for not being able to save everyone. People die; it sucks, man. 

I’ve had 15 more years with my grandpa because a great cardiologist fixed his heart, and he has done so well. But 20 years ago grandma had a massive heart attack leaving her without oxygen too long to come back from and she had to be taken off life support when there was no hope left. My dad and his siblings and grandpa made that decision based on the fact that she wasn’t coming back. The docs knew what the situation was and they gave the honest truth. Her death wasn’t the fault of the paramedics or the ER docs or the ICU staff. They did their best. People die. Pretending everyone can be saved from everything isn’t realistic or helpful. 


I will try to do some vaccine reading and share anything I find that is relevant or helpful.


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## nbp

Ultimately though, we’re just nerds on a flashlight forum, so despite all our chattering and speculation and ideas and questions, we can only really affect a fairly small bubble. And the government, and hospitals and doctors will make decisions, and we will just have to work with it. 

Like Forrest Gump says, “And that’s all I have to say about that.” He was pretty wise, that Forrest. Not much for book learnin’, but pretty wise.


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## StarHalo

nbp said:


> Her death wasn’t the fault of the paramedics or the ER docs or the ICU staff. They did their best. People die. Pretending everyone can be saved from everything isn’t realistic or helpful.
> 
> hospitals and doctors will make decisions, and we will just have to work with it.



That's not what we're talking about though, what's on the table is maintaining the vitality of the people via passive extermination for the benefit of business interests. Specifically enabling hospital staff to not do their best, to accept a projected number of casualties of lesser peoples as inevitable and forge ahead to open the way for the strong. 

Of course no one here is volunteering. "Weak" in this instance means "those other weak people," we're positing from an exalted position where our kind comes out on top and the losses occur to nearly-alien extraneous groups who just going by the numbers would have soon died anyway. No early adopters here for recommended experimental drugs or therapies, but of course it's crucial that there should be many other people who try these things, very important..


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## nbp

I’m not sure what you are looking for? You want people to come up here on a public hobbyist forum of strangers and say Heck yeah I’ll pull the plug on grandma if it could save someone else! Come on, no one talks like that. But they may in their heart know that if grandma gets sick her odds are not good. I have grandparents in that situation. They are doing fairly well, but I am realistic in my understanding that a serious case of pneumonia could take them. 

And I ask again, how are people supposed to die? I’ve watched plenty of older friends die slowly, painfully, expensively over the course of years of cancer, ALS, the complications of heart disease, diabetes, strokes, etc. No one can reasonably argue that that is a better way to go than a quick bout of pneumonia. It’s just that quick ends seem more tragic while slow painful deaths allow people time to say goodbye and when they do finally die you are perhaps even relieved as they are no longer in pain. Doctors face a very real challenge in the face of limited resources: expend huge resources to try save the old and sick so they can go back to dying of all they things already wrong with them or expend the resources on those they think have the best odds of a long healthy life. Is there a right answer? NO!!! That’s why hospitals have entire ethics boards to sit around and come up procedures for that and they are constantly changing. You can easily argue either side of it and if you’re reasonable you can see valid points on both sides. I don’t have the answers but I can see and understand both sides. 

In any case, I guess we don’t really know how anyone here would respond in a given situation until they are in it. You and I don’t know exactly how we will react to a certain circumstance until we are in it either. We think we know, but we often don’t know what we are really made of until the rubber hits the road.


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## bykfixer

I can only go from my experience with my dad who was placed on a ventalator for an issue unrelated. It was in about 2009 or so. But the folks in ICU said most do not usually survive because the machine is so dam good at what it does that the body of the person using it forgets how to. They slowly took it away from him, whatever that means. All I know is at 10am they told Mrs Fixer and I to leave the room and come back at 2:30. That they would know one way or the other by then. 

At 10am that day a machine was keeping him alive. The doctor said it was a 50/50 chance. At supper time he was out of his coma and asking how long he had been asleep. It had been about a week. Prior to them putting him on the ventalator one night he was gasping for air and and telling me to go home, get his 357, come back and as he put it "put me down". As he was being knocked out via IV he was doing the pistol to the temple motion with his hand. He was pissed off that nobody would "put him down". Thank the stars he did not remember that when he woke because otherwise I might not be around to type this. lol. 

He had been medivac'd to a hospital. Mrs Fixer drove my dad's van there and I followed the chopper as it flew along the interstate. That was pretty cool, but not because my pop was in dire straights from a bonk on the melon. Later on when he was settled in a room in ICU I sent Mrs Fixer home for the evening. What happened next forever changed me. My pop was bleeding on the brain and his blood thinner was causing it not to stop. He was on a fixed amount of liquid regiment due to a heart condition. They had to exceed that by several fold to thicken his blood. I asked what does that entail. The young doctor in training said "we have to drown him, to save him". Oh that's all. I will never forget what happened during the next few hours. 

So for me, if I were in the situation my dad was in I cannot honestly say I would not want to be "put down" like he did. I never talked to him about it, just in case he would have shot me for not respecting his wishes. I do not believe Mrs Fixer would have me put out of my misery. But then again one never really knows. Afterall there were all those years I forgot our anniverssary and that one year I forgot her birthday. 

Dam this corona virus is sure stirring up some old ghosts.

He passed away in his sleep one Sunday mid morning during his 10 o'clock nap. Complications resulting from "the sniffles" brought on by a head cold. 

When we had to unplug my mom she was already gone. Her brain was moosh so she never knew. She just fell asleep after a surgery issue. Like NBP's grandma, lack of O2. 
But my pop knew up until the coma med knocked him out and if that is what it's like with some covid-19 patients, it's a terrible thing. Yet there was no way I was going to "put him down". That's murder in the place called USA regardless of mine or his wishes. Some places allow it. All I could say is it would be up to the individual doing the suffering. Not me, nor some doctor.


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## StarHalo

nbp said:


> I’m not sure what you are looking for?



I'm looking for someone to say "I would do anything for the survival of my loved ones, I would want others to help my loved ones survive, so I would not harbor a position where others' loved ones were sacrificed."



nbp said:


> Is there a right answer? NO!!! That’s why hospitals have entire ethics boards to sit around and come up procedures for that and they are constantly changing. You can easily argue either side of it and if you’re reasonable you can see valid points on both sides. I don’t have the answers but I can see and understand both sides.



Okay, so maybe I'm out of place. This might be another "many fine people on both sides" issue and I'm just not worldly enough to understand the modern approach to eugenics. I'd like to hear others' opinions on this.


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## nbp

Good grief. I’m so over this. I’ll see you in the Radio thread.


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## Greta

StarHalo said:


> I'm looking for someone to say "I would do anything for the survival of my loved ones, I would want others to help my loved ones survive, so I would not harbor a position where others' loved ones were sacrificed."
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, so maybe I'm out of place. This might be another "many fine people on both sides" issue and I'm just not worldly enough to understand the modern approach to eugenics. I'd like to hear others' opinions on this.



Ok... my opinion. What you're looking for is very selfish. You want YOUR needs filled before anyone else's so YOU do not feel guilty. Plain and simple. 

Does this mean I don't love my loved ones as much as you do? Nope. Just means that I am more realistic as far as "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". And I know my loved ones and what they would want. It's quite interesting how few people actually take the time to talk to their loved ones about these kind of things or really even to get to KNOW them. My parents, my kids, my husband... I know exactly what they want and what they would want me to do. And they know what I want too. And I'm very proud to say that none of us are selfish. Quality over quantity.


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## StarHalo

Greta said:


> Does this mean I don't love my loved ones as much as you do? Nope. Just means that I am more realistic as far as "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few". And I know my loved ones and what they would want. It's quite interesting how few people actually take the time to talk to their loved ones about these kind of things or really even to get to KNOW them. My parents, my kids, my husband... I know exactly what they want and what they would want me to do. And they know what I want too. And I'm very proud to say that none of us are selfish. Quality over quantity.



I do support having your house in order, that's very important to know the wishes of your loved ones if it came to that grim situation. But what Poppy is proposing in post #22 is that it's in question if we should protect others' loved ones; that the criteria for not helping the ill should be if they are ill, so that the well can flourish. Herd immunity to improve the herd. 



Poppy said:


> Shall we do all we can to protect the populace and minimize the deaths?
> 
> Let this virus run its course... let the weak die, only the strong survive, we'll have a stronger, more vibrant, population... and we can get back to business.



Again, he is posing this as a question and not his concrete position, I am echoing that question and asking others to voice their opinion. Should we minimize the deaths?


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## bigburly912

How do you propose we minimize the deaths? Nobody on Earth, literally, has that solution yet.


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## Poppy

Poppy said:


> Red,
> Thanks for that.
> Who knows, who is right?
> 
> Certainly there is the moral issue.
> Euthanasia ... good or bad?
> Shall we do all we can to protect the populace and minimize the deaths?
> 
> OTOH
> The economy is in the tank, with few working.
> Let this virus run its course... let the weak die, only the strong survive, we'll have a stronger, more vibrant, population... and we can get back to business.
> How long can the country survive, going into debt, or printing money?
> 
> Will there be a global response, where each country devalues their dollar the same? SO that it all remains the same but not backed by the same amount of Gold?
> 
> So lots of questions, and few answers.
> 
> *It appears to me, that there will be a toe in the water, re-opening of businesses in the next couple of weeks, as a test to see how it goes. I hope it goes well. As we all know, that it will take a couple of weeks to see if things have gotten worse. OK, we are sure they will have gotten worse, but at that point it will have to be determined how much worse is acceptable, or if the re-opening will have to be scaled back.*



First of all Star.

Don't quote me out of context again, or I will report you to the internet police.

I did NOT take a position on this matter, but simply stated that there are moral and economic questions that will need to be answered.

Secondly,
I never said that we should limit healthcare resources. 
Thankfully, even in NYC its been reported that anyone who needed a ventilator, got one. Now that the curve has been bent, they were able to send 400 of them to Massachusetts. So, unless things get really worse, ventilators will not be an issue. 

Thirdly,
I have had a discussion with my Dad about the value of life. He brought it up. He said that he led a full and happy life, and that if it comes down to it, and he had to go on a ventilator, and some kid needs it, he would give his up so that the kid had a better opportunity to survive. 

Forth,
You are allowed to go to work and collect a pay check each week. In fact it is larger because of the over time you have put in. Ha... living high on the hog, eh? Nice new refrigerator you have there. You have not responded to the questions put forth regarding the economics of the situation. Nor did you respond to the question, are you willing to continue to work for free? What would your position be if you were not allowed to work, and unable to collect unemployment, either because you were not eligible, or the government ran out of money?


----------



## Poppy

nbp said:


> <snip>
> 
> 
> I will try to do some vaccine reading and share anything I find that is relevant or helpful.


Please do.

I have always believed that a naturally acquired immunity was better than an artificially acquired immunity (vaccination). I might have been wrong all the while, IDK.

With that said, and the fact that the experts do not know if those with naturally acquired antibodies are immune, I'd like an explanation of how vaccination would do a better job. Is it that they are banking on/hoping that a certain level of immunity exists?, and that they can reproduce it with a vaccine?


----------



## lion504

nbp said:


> That having unlimited ventilators isn’t a panacea. It only saves those who are strong enough to survive, and many are not. I’m not saying they shouldn’t ventilate the sick.



Ventilators aren’t working nearly as well as experts predicted. Growing number of medical opinions suggest COVID-19 patients should avoid ventilation for increased survival rates. That a CPAP machine or simple breathing mask is better. Perhaps we were oversold on ventilators. Not suggesting it was purposeful Or avoidable. You learn by doing.


----------



## scout24

Having loved ones know your wishes is invaluable. Having an on-paper health care proxy so there's no misunderstanding of your wishes is priceless. No fighting. No discussion. Maybe some hurt feelings, but it's spelled out so it's minimized. My Mother-in-law went from fully functioning and fine to in a coma and unresponsive within the space of a week, and 13 days after being taken to hospice she was gone. The week of testing showed nothing, she had just lost her mental faculties and "gone to sleep." She never wanted to live like that, didn't want extrordinary measures, just wanted to go. It was tough as hell to watch, some wanted other steps taken, but it was in black and white. It's never too early to get your house in order. My brother-in-law is six months into stage 4 lung cancer as we speak, and won't do the paperwork even after watching what his mother went through. I pray it's quick when it happens or it's going to be ugly.

BigBurly- The solution to minimize deaths was given- Stay the hell at home. Very few people are prepared for that emotionally, financially, or from a logistical standpoint. The number of people ignoring the directives and wandering the grocery stores or the Big Orange improvement store "just to get out of the house" is laughable.


----------



## lion504

Wasn’t the (real) purpose of the Shelter in place / stay at home to minimize deaths that otherwise would have occurred “at the same time”? In other words, to Stretch out the numbers of deaths across the calendar as to avoid overwhelming hospitals when they lacked protocols, and PPE, and meds, etc. I think the “shelter-in-place” instruction is similar to the “masks don’t help” instruction. My opinion is that these examples of Public medical guidance have a main, intended purpose (protect the system) distinct from, but related to, the advertised purpose (protect individuals). Absent a vaccine or effective treatment, the other solution is herd immunity since the virus likely isn’t going away, and we can’t out shelter it.


----------



## bykfixer

They won't know until they know Poppy. Remember, this is a new virus. So in labs they can make some things happen in a predictive manner sure. But each human has it's own set of rules going on called DNA so perhaps something everyone has in common can be discovered and that be what is the catalyst for an effective inoculation. 

Now for a flu shot to work, it would seem logical that if in order for a person to have a positive impact there already be antibodies there would be a check for those anti bodies done before the shot is administered. But if I'm not mistaken a flu shot is given if you hand them $X without any prior tests for anything. Swab arm with alcohol soaked cotton ball, stab in needle, push plunger, done. Does that process just suppose the person has antibodies? Is there a Kinder/gentler shot for those with none and a deluxe model for those with antibodies? I dunno. Not trying to be snarky. Just curious. 

I work with folks who speak of a time when the US government required adults to be vacinated for flu. They said it was Ford was in the White House. They told of how it killed a whole bunch of people, like as many as non vacinated folks. There is not much written about that as I look around. I just presume Uncle Sam deems that as not one of his finer moments so like crazy uncle Fred lets just not talk about that. I was able to read it was a version of the Spanish flu that comes back around every few decades in a form that wipes out a lot of people. 

So as long as mother nature allows viruses to change enough to get past human immunity (ie keep finding new hosts) the world will always be caught flat footed from time to time. This is just another one of those times only this one is the worst one in a century.


----------



## bykfixer

Once the numbers in some places go from all those dead people to all those recovered people maybe this thing won't look so scarey to the average Schmoe. But as it stands right now a picture has been painted that a trip to the grocery store is a 50/50 proposition. 

My state for example has a chart with a curve showing how many died. Another showing how many are sick. They say they do not have the resources to show how many have recovered. To be deemed recovered means show negative virus for two times. The tests are all being used to check for new cases since they are in short supply. Ok that makes sense. But they could show of X hospitalized XX were discharged. That would at least instill some hope in folks, right? 

I conclude that unless they scare the beezlebub out of us we'll be like "pfft corona balona" and just keep acting normal. I say "we" as in the general society. I'd wager that nearly all if not all who read this and part 1 are doing their part to take this thing serious, even if it's just to keep the seasoned generation safe. I posed a question before about who knows somebody. Well recent studies causes me to wonder how many of us had it and did not know. I don't pose that to make light of this very serious situation. But just wonder if perhaps some have been exposed to a something or other they never knew they had been. Did some folks bodies have a head start after being exposed to SARS1? Did an exposure to the Spanish flu derivative cause seasoned folks bodies to say "I got you this time buckaroo" and over attack this one? 

Time will tell. I do not want to write down a directive but did advise loved ones to DNR if they choose to. I think the key to that is to figure who would decide with the most logical perspective.


----------



## Poppy

Mr. Fixer,
Here is my limited understanding.

We are continually assaulted by microbes: viruses, bacteria, molds etc.

Our bodies respond to these assaults by creating specific to the microbe anti-bodies. 
Once our body has done that, successfully, it remembers how to do it again. Therefore, the next time it is assaulted by the same microbe, or one that is very similar, it can ramp up its defenses more rapidly than it did the first time. 

I always thought that once a person develops specific antibodies to a particular microbe, that they have life-time immunity.
Apparently I was wrong. Dr. Fauci has repeatedly stated that "we do not know if, or how long immunity exists after one recovers from this new virus."

Some people think that a flu shot is a treatment for the flu. It is not. It is a vaccination shot.
There are multiple strains of viruses that can cause flu symptoms. Each year, one strain or another is more prevalent, and the experts try to predict which one it will be, and promote the inoculation for vaccination for the stain which is their best guess. Some years they get it right, some years, not at all.

I don't know if there is a way to determine if immunity exists, other than by clinical trial.
1. Take a group of recovered people.
2. Expose them to the virus
3. Watch them for a few weeks and see if they become symptomatic, and if so, how symptomatic.

Antibodies is not the body's only defense to fighting invading organisms.
Many microbes are not very tolerant of temperature changes, and one of the body's defensive mechanisms, is to run a fever. Many will now say, "Don't fight a fever" until it is over 101 F.
Swelling of tissues, and coughing and sneezing are attempts of the body to remove some microbes.

At any rate, it would take time to determine if immunity exists, and even more time to determine how long it exists.
Time will tell.


----------



## bykfixer

I never figured antibodies lasted a lifetime. But did figure the body does remenber how to rebuild them when need be. It's why some strains of influenza won't adversely affect folks who had it before. Viruses though are like roaches. We zap one generation with D-Con but another generation adapts and continues. It's why they have to keep creating new versions of the flu shot I suppose. 

I read a story about the two doctors in Bakersfield Ca. They used some numbers and threw out some theories. But so did the guy who said 2 million will die in the US. I don't put a lot of stock in Dr Fauchis theories either. Even when he predicts based on predictions based on a very short period of historical data. When he says it's very contagious, duh. We all know that. When he predicts this will linger like an influenza, sure that makes sense too. Afterall, humans do a great job at spreading disease. 

Yet there was a time when nobody knew the affects of an atomic bomb until we blew one up. Shortly after (from historical perspective) some were used on a population of 2 cities and it was decades before we really knew the long term affects. Folks are still learning the affects of the twin towers situation. It's too soon to tell the big time affect of this corona virus. History may show it was way over blown. It may show we blew it in trying to slow the spread when herd immunity was the real answer. It may show hand sanitizer keeps us from developing things our bodies can modify to better fight it. It may show 5g played a role, or did not. It's just too soon to know. 

With the resurgance of the Spanish flu every so often I definitely believe herd immunity does play a role in the survival ability of the human race itself. Generations never exposed to it before succumb to the "new flu", which is really the off spring of an old one. Meanwhile an older generation largely goes unaffected by it. But will this novel corona prove that false down the road? Too soon to tell right now. We should certainly know by 2025. (no I'm not advocating lock down until then.) I'm just saying that it will take years to really know the affects of this new super bug.

We know how to slow the spread. Lessons learned from the 1918 pandemic.

At 2pm the vp is slated to take part in a round table discussion at the mayo clinic. For some that should prove as exciting as watching paint dry. To others it may lend creedence to their state of mind being relieved or made worse. Egg heads on display. I'm up for it.


----------



## wacbzz

This might not gain any attention, but I’ll deposit it here anyway...

The large company that I work for has decided to bring back many of the thousands that have been furloughed. What I’ve found in offering lots of these folks the opportunity to come back to work again, is that they simply don’t want to come back because they’re making too much in unemployment (the extra $600 above what their normal unemployment benefit is) but using the “I don’t want to come back because I’m ‘scared’ still of the Coronavirus” excuse. 

I had this response in multiple “off the record” text exchanges...


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## scout24

If the "extra" $600 stay-at-home carrot were removed upon offering furloughed employees their jobs back, I'll bet more would show up. It needs to be tapered off...


----------



## StarHalo

Poppy said:


> Don't quote me out of context again, or I will report you to the internet police...I did NOT take a position on this matter...You have not responded to the questions put forth



Asiding the fact that you're not positing an opinion but are asking for mine, post #39 states that you are only posing a question and not your position, post #36 states my position. 



wacbzz said:


> What I’ve found in offering lots of these folks the opportunity to come back to work again, is that they simply don’t want to come back because they’re making too much in unemployment.



Good thing those aren't Amazon employees, or there'd already be someone else at their desks. Anyone who doesn't want to be an essential worker doesn't have to, but there are others who want to..


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## bykfixer

A lot of that going around wacbzz. Heck when they began talking about the extra $600 I called my boss and asked for a furlough. She laughed and said "yeah right, you aint going anywhere". 

I did get an email from a large government agency congratulating those of us in my industry for complying with guidelines. "thanks to your dilligence you have earned the priveledge to remain employed" it said. Call me crazy but I felt a bit slighted by that.


----------



## Cree XHP 70 LED

My responses are on auto-delete because I speak the truth. LOL


----------



## SCEMan

Greta said:


> And I know my loved ones and what they would want. It's quite interesting how few people actually take the time to talk to their loved ones about these kind of things or really even to get to KNOW them. My parents, my kids, my husband... I know exactly what they want and what they would want me to do. And they know what I want too. And I'm very proud to say that none of us are selfish. Quality over quantity.



Well said. I went through this exact process several years ago. When the time came, and my parents were on ventilators there was no doubt in my mind what their wishes were and the hospice care they received was a blessing.


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## SCEMan

We may soon have a better picture on how the "herd immunity" argument plays out...

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...eden-anders-tegnell-herd-immunity/3031536001/


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## scout24

Cree XHP 70 LED said:


> My responses are on auto-delete because I speak the truth. LOL



Your responses are not on auto delete, an Admin asked in the OP to keep politics out of the thread this go-round and has suggested repeatedly that the Underground is the place for sich discussion. Please see Empath's OP if clarification is needed. Thanks for your understanding.


----------



## Poppy

scout24 said:


> If the "extra" $600 stay-at-home carrot were removed upon offering furloughed employees their jobs back, I'll bet more would show up. It needs to be tapered off...


There was a Federal Legislator (I didn't catch whether he was a Senator, or Congressman) but he stated, in front of the media camera, that he voted against the bill, because he didn't want to give the people in his region an incentive to NOT return to work. Many or most in his district didn't make $600 a week.


----------



## Hooked on Fenix

Apparently, women are getting sick less than men from corona virus. In the U.S., they are beginning a clinical trial for men with corona virus to see if estrogen and progesterone can be used to treat corona virus. You heard that right. They are giving men the female hormone estrogen or progesterone to try to treat this virus. So many jokes popping into my head right now. I can just imagine the headlines now:
Good news: effective treatment found. Bad news: It turns men into women.
Transgender women join lupus patients in medication shortage. 
Side effects may include breast growth, erectile dysfunction, mood swings, hot flashes, muscle loss, and family and friends questioning your sanity.

I guess this is good news for women if it works. They'll be safer to work and the men who refuse treatment might be stuck at home cleaning the house and taking care of the kids.


----------



## Cree XHP 70 LED

scout24 said:


> Your responses are not on auto delete, an Admin asked in the OP to keep politics out of the thread this go-round and has suggested repeatedly that the Underground is the place for sich discussion. Please see Empath's OP if clarification is needed. Thanks for your understanding.




On the version 1 yes I was political. My last post here was not political.

I simply stated that I personally do not care if I get coronavirus and die from it. 

I see nothing political in that statement.


----------



## Greta

Cree XHP 70 LED said:


> On the version 1 yes I was political. My last post here was not political.
> 
> I simply stated that I personally do not care if I get coronavirus and die from it.
> 
> I see nothing political in that statement.



You posted a lot more than that. Stop. Just stop. Now.


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## Cree XHP 70 LED

Greta said:


> You posted a lot more than that. Stop. Just stop. Now.




Please PM me I think you have me confused with someone else.


----------



## bykfixer

In my state women have a commanding lead over men in case numbers. 
It seems how both fare is where things go bad for us fellas. 

"Hey Mrs. Fixer, got any extra Estro-Life I can bum from ya?"

But seriously, women, especially moms have some kind of super powers that causes them never to get the flu while us hubbies whimper on the couch under a blankee. Perhaps the ability to survive giving birth in itself should say a lot. Is it simply estrogen? Or is it something super charged by the female chromosomes? Maternal super powers? 

We may never know HoF.


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## nbp

Or maybe women are just healthier than men in general and are less prone to the other health problems that lead to COVID19 Complications due to lifestyle choices.


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## Hooked on Fenix

I have heard that a lot of older men actually have more estrogen than women who have been through menopause. Estrogen stores in fat. If estrogen was an effective treatment, we would hear about more unhealthy obese men surviving it. Instead, we hear that that extra weight puts pressure on the lungs when the person needs a ventilator to survive. You want an effective treatment that increases the chance of survival? Don't give them estrogen. Give them liposuction. Men who survive will be much happier coming out of this with losing weight rather than growing breasts and becoming sterile.


----------



## PhotonWrangler

Kestrel said:


> What color was it?



The toilet paper? It was white. 

The store? It was the "orange" one.


----------



## PhotonWrangler

bykfixer said:


> ...But seriously, women, especially moms have some kind of super powers that causes them never to get the flu while us hubbies whimper on the couch under a blankee. Perhaps the ability to survive giving birth in itself should say a lot. Is it simply estrogen? Or is it something super charged by the female chromosomes? Maternal super powers?
> 
> We may never know HoF.



I read one story that stated that post menopausal women still have an advantage regarding Covid. This is causing speculation that it might be something other than estrogen or progesterone.


----------



## Greta

Cree XHP 70 LED said:


> Please PM me I think you have me confused with someone else.



No need for PM. Let’s show everyone:


----------



## Kestrel

PhotonWrangler said:


> The toilet paper? It was white.
> The store? It was the "orange" one.


Bummer, you didn't get my <jk> re: the palette


----------



## StarHalo

The wife bought disinfectant wipes at the red store, so at least that curve appears to have flattened..


----------



## Kestrel

Cree XHP 70 LED said:


> (contents deleted by CPF Staff)





Cree XHP 70 LED said:


> My responses are on auto-delete because I speak the truth. LOL





scout24 said:


> Your responses are not on auto delete, an Admin asked in the OP to keep politics out of the thread this go-round and has suggested repeatedly that the Underground is the place for sich discussion. Please see Empath's OP if clarification is needed. Thanks for your understanding.





Cree XHP 70 LED said:


> On the version 1 yes I was political. *My last post here was not political*.
> I simply stated that I personally do not care if I get coronavirus and die from it.
> I see nothing political in that statement.


(emphasis added by staff)

As can be seen; self-serving distortions like this, is the sort of thing that CPF Staff have to deal with:


Cree XHP 70 LED said:


> Meanwhile, the world governments test run is going smoothly. How much will people obey before they revolt? The Hawaiian government should be ashamed anything on wheels not allowed only running below the high water mark on the beach? I do not obey, I am indifferent though about a lot of things. If I get it and die who cares. Just stop inflating the numbers on purpose.




Despite subsequent staff efforts to keep things civil, some 'members' just can't be trusted to act like adults; temper-tantrum behavior that should have normally gotten weeded out in their teenage years.


----------



## bykfixer

Early on HoF I was reading about glucose levels playing a role with the covid severity. It was early on so I really didn't talk about it. The doctor was speaking on how all kinds of extra glucose in folks was seemingly leading to adverse conditions when the corona set in. He wasn't speaking of over weight folks, but folks who have a lot of extra glucose in their bodies. Folks like me with insulin resistance issues, or what my doctor calls pre-diabetes. 

It was a sort of infomercial about a keto type regimine. But later I started reading about obesce folks struggling with covid and thought "hmmmm, I think I'll skip dessert……

Shoot, there are so many trials going on. Female hormones, malaria pills, nicotine patches, all kinds of stuff.


----------



## turbodog

bykfixer said:


> Early on HoF I was reading about glucose levels playing a role with the covid severity. It was early on so I really didn't talk about it. The doctor was speaking on how all kinds of extra glucose in folks was seemingly leading to adverse conditions when the corona set in. He wasn't speaking of over weight folks, but folks who have a lot of extra glucose in their bodies. Folks like me with insulin resistance issues, or what my doctor calls pre-diabetes.
> 
> It was a sort of infomercial about a keto type regimine. But later I started reading about obesce folks struggling with covid and thought "hmmmm, I think I'll skip dessert……
> 
> Shoot, there are so many trials going on. Female hormones, malaria pills, nicotine patches, all kinds of stuff.



There is 1) so much misinformation out there and 2) a lack of accurate info. We have medical people in the family, 2 of which are doctors. Even _they_ don't have much better info than you and I. As one of them say '2 years from now we'll know exactly what to do'.


----------



## PhotonWrangler

Kestrel said:


> Bummer, you didn't get my <jk> re: the palette



Doh! I just got it now.


----------



## lion504

turbodog said:


> There is 1) so much misinformation out there and 2) a lack of accurate info. We have medical people in the family, 2 of which are doctors. Even _they_ don't have much better info than you and I. As one of them say '2 years from now we'll know exactly what to do'.



Similar experience here.


----------



## bykfixer

Some of the stuff I read, well it sounds logical sure. But other stuff is just kind of bizzar. 

I remember early on hearing people in high places, with enough education and experience to be taken very seriously who were saying stuff like up to 2.2 million people will die from this in the next 45 days if we don't do x, y and z. I thought huh, 2 million? But in China, Phillipines, south Korea etc that did not happen, what gives here? A very short historic period did show it exploded on a population like an atomic bomb, sure but did I actually need 3 months stock of groceries? 

The perverbial bombs hit. Most made it. But the fallout is where we are now. In a general sense those are little bombs exploding all over now. The authorities call them "outbreak centers". While the ginormous outbreaks are subsiding the virus continues its campaign of moving from host to host. 

One little bomb smaller than the eye can see has managed to bring nearly the entire population of planet earth to a halt. Talk about ripple effect. Butterfly takes off in China causes hurricane in Australlia……wow. 

Now America is a place made up of people who thumbed their nose at authority early on. They fought a war for independence. Later half the country thumbed their nose at the other half in a civil war. During a pandemic they marched across the planet and defeated a tyrant in a world war. Later they dropped everything and made sure the boys overseas had everything they needed to defeat two tyrants in a second world war. Now these same people were asked to set at home, stay hunkered down while an invisible enemy marched throught the cities. They gladly did for a while. Some are still patiently waiting for the all clear signal. Some are saying "bring on your best corona virus, we aint scared of you". But that is a typical reaction from a citizenry who don't take lightly to being powerless to stop an enemy. A lot of Americans don't take well to being told they cannot go to church, or to a barbecue. So it should come as no surprise when they begin to wave banners and thumb their noses at authority again. 

Down the street from me yesterday a neighbor had a birthday gathering for their 2 year old. Outside. There were probably 25 people gathered in the front yard. Not one of us were shocked, appalled or even thinking of calling the authorities. The gathering was taking place in a responsible manner and frankly we were pleased as punch to witness a bit of normalcy again. Sadly less than a mile away is a senior center that is plagued with covid-19 patients. So we raise a toast to good vibes towards the nursing home as we know a lot of folks in there would raise a toast to carry on if they could.


----------



## turbodog

bykfixer said:


> Some of the stuff I read, well it sounds logical sure. But other stuff is just kind of bizzar.
> 
> I remember early on hearing people in high places, with enough education and experience to be taken very seriously who were saying stuff like up to 2.2 million people will die from this in the next 45 days if we don't do x, y and z. I thought huh, 2 million? But in China, Phillipines, south Korea etc that did not happen, what gives here? A very short historic period did show it exploded on a population like an atomic bomb, sure but did I actually need 3 months stock of groceries?
> 
> ...



That's the nature of exponential growth. If measures were not taken the # of infected would be off the charts with a similar number of deaths.

But now, the real reason I popped in. I don't usually post links, but I'm making an exception for this. Single source of all coronavirus info/etc that we currently know. Enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=wVs5AyjzwRM&app=desktop


----------



## idleprocess

bykfixer said:


> I remember early on hearing people in high places, with enough education and experience to be taken very seriously who were saying stuff like up to 2.2 million people will die from this in the next 45 days if we don't do x, y and z. I thought huh, 2 million? But in China, Phillipines, south Korea etc that did not happen, what gives here? A very short historic period did show it exploded on a population like an atomic bomb, sure but did I actually need 3 months stock of groceries?



This is a common complaint and it seems to stem from reporting done on the early _models_ of how the diseased would progress.

There are two major factors at play here - the shaky nature of initial models and the grim realities of the news business.

Science is in the business of producing models in order to understand nature. There's a saying in science - _all models are false but some models are useful_ - that expresses the various conceits, shortcuts, and handwaves necessary to reduce a complex system down to something that can be understood well enough to be predicted. If you've ever done word problems for physics you see this all the time - frictionless surfaces, no air resistance, no crosswind, a perfect gas, or a complete reaction ... _*and these are robust, tested models*_. Much of the initial reporting about predictions of millions dead comes from the early models of how COVID-19 worked - using the best information then available, science produced models of the spread of the disease then modeled the impact of a variety of mitigation methods. As time progressed, better information became available - the nature of the disease, how it spreads, how long it survives in various environments, how it manifests itself in people, a better idea the actual infection rate is, the impact of mitigation methods - and the models improved. The early models were effectively demanded of the discipline by policy makers who needed a _best estimate_ of what the disease would do, on a deadline, so they could act.

For something so pervasive it amazes me that certain realities of the news business are so poorly-understood by the public. For the last >20 years, the market for news has grown intensely competitive while the ultimate limit on its potential - the size of the population and its limited attention span - has grown almost zero by comparison. Gone are the days of any given metro area having 6-12 TV stations, twice as many radio stations, two local papers, a few more nationally-distributed news papers, and perhaps 100 news magazines available; now there are about a dozen 24 hour cable news networks, a thousand channels on TV, a million YouTube channels, and tens of millions of websites of various flavors providing news - and really the news business is now online with TV being a legacy venue and print steadily dying. For the modern journalist, the realtime performance of a given story, article, video, whatnot can determine whether they _put food on the table_ or go hungry/steal from the cat. From an overall content perspective, _*anxiety sells*_ and keeps people coming back. The degree to which realtime data is available and stories are tuned is amazing and sometimes unnerving - some sites will just do simple A/B headline testing, others will run multiple versions of the story and settle on the one that gets the most full reads/shares. This sort of rapid evolution also effects outlets as a whole, shaping themselves, their style, and their content to whatever works. To wit, any journalist that doesn't want to risk their cat's wrath will think about what generates clicks, which means page reads, which means shares, which ultimately means ad impressions and thus a paycheck. Publishing early and often are advantageous to put it mildly. Thus back to COVID-19 when scientists put out some preliminary death projections, it is a fundamental business imperative from above and often a microeconomic decision to run with the biggest most frightening number, gather up as much information as possible around that number, and find a steady series of quotes and updates around the biggest plausible numbers available that given day. Alternatively, since meta-reporting is every political junkie's favorite subject, run stories that whip up one faction or another into a frenzy _vis-à-vis_ outrage pieces that get shared on social media in endless culture war, likely paying better for their authors and outlets than simply reporting the story.

TL;DR 2 million people pretty clearly haven't died of COVID-19 worldwide. Some of that was preliminary models with enormous error bars based on incomplete information, some of it was mitigation actions, and the reporting that put that figure out there in the public imagination was ... irresponsible ... but the press doesn't have so much _agency_ as we'd like to believe because of irresistible market forces.


----------



## StarHalo

bykfixer said:


> I remember early on hearing people in high places, with enough education and experience to be taken very seriously who were saying stuff like up to 2.2 million people will die from this in the next 45 days if we don't do x, y and z. I thought huh, 2 million? But in China, Phillipines, south Korea etc that did not happen, what gives here? A very short historic period did show it exploded on a population like an atomic bomb, sure but did I actually need 3 months stock of groceries?



If a tornado is coming, they generally tell everyone in the area to seek shelter, not just the people currently closest to the tornado.


----------



## bykfixer

I think one thing that separates this chat board if you will from other sites is a genuine curiosity about what can or cannot be done with a flashlight. That lends a bit of skeptisism to things published. "Does that double a fueled light actually produce 3000 lumens? C'mon man." 

So when models were saying people would be dieing at rates that would mean by the time you finish reading this 14.7 people be dead some of us went "no way dude". We looked around for data and historical stats for the same reason we would see if that double a can really put out 3000 lumens. Being skeptical of the proposed mortality rate there was plenty of data to indicate "this thing aint no hoax". We have had a dialog ever since. Some of it not so pretty but if you could see the royal rumbles taking place at other sites, this place is an oasis in the information super desert.


----------



## turbodog

bykfixer said:


> I think one thing that separates this chat board if you will from other sites is a genuine curiosity about what can or cannot be done with a flashlight. That lends a bit of skeptisism to things published. "Does that double a fueled light actually produce 3000 lumens? C'mon man."
> 
> So when models were saying people would be dieing at rates that would mean by the time you finish reading this 14.7 people be dead some of us went "no way dude". We looked around for data and historical stats for the same reason we would see if that double a can really put out 3000 lumens. Being skeptical of the proposed mortality rate there was plenty of data to indicate "this thing aint no hoax". We have had a dialog ever since. Some of it not so pretty but if you could see the royal rumbles taking place at other sites, this place is an oasis in the information super desert.



Yup.

From a public policy angle... it's lose/lose. You have an outbreak and people complain. Or you quash it with distancing/etc and people complain that nothing happened. My cousin, a primary care doc in Alabama, is seeing case #2. People are actually mad that there is not MORE sickness.


----------



## SCEMan

idleprocess said:


> This is a common complaint and it seems to stem from reporting done on the early _models_ of how the diseased would progress.
> 
> There are two major factors at play here - the shaky nature of initial models and the grim realities of the news business.



Thanks for the concise summary of what's being disseminated and what we actually know at this time.


----------



## bykfixer

Perhaps history will show that sketchy models predicting massive death actually saved lives. I believe that. But some 45 days later lots of Americans in Oklahoma, Wyoming etc are hollering "I need a hair cut".
First world problems, aye?


----------



## StarHalo

Russell Brand threw together a quick video on how to deal with anxiety during this time; it's interesting how it segues perfectly into Mr. Butler's take on dealing with the virus:


----------



## Greta

bykfixer said:


> Perhaps history will show that sketchy models predicting massive death actually saved lives. I believe that.




I do too. I was JUST having that discussion with my mom - over FaceTime, of course. Being safe and all. 

Meanwhile... in the middle of the AZ desert where it is currently 105 degrees (RealFeel 113).... I need my nails done! :mecry:


----------



## bykfixer

It's a dry heat……

But then again brownies are cooked in a dry heat too.


----------



## Hooked on Fenix

I've worked in Arizona over the summer before. It's so hot there, it makes you want to puke. But it's a dry heave. I don't miss doing electrical work in summer on the top floor of a clean room (wiring air conditioning) while they test the heater and have people smoking in front of my fan. It got really scary during a lightning storm doing electrical work on the top floor on the building covered with copper panels. Summer is monsoon season. When it's not as hot as hell, it's raining cats and dogs. Good luck living there and may your air conditioner never fail you.


----------



## bykfixer

How about that new treatment announced today?

Sounds like a good starting point. It's an anti viral used to treat ebola and marburg virus (a hemoragic fever causer)


----------



## Greta

Hooked on Fenix said:


> I've worked in Arizona over the summer before. It's so hot there, it makes you want to puke. But it's a dry heave. I don't miss doing electrical work in summer on the top floor of a clean room (wiring air conditioning) while they test the heater and have people smoking in front of my fan. It got really scary during a lightning storm doing electrical work on the top floor on the building covered with copper panels. Summer is monsoon season. When it's not as hot as hell, it's raining cats and dogs. Good luck living there and may your air conditioner never fail you.



Just had the AC serviced yesterday. Good to go! It's a lovely 73 degrees in the house... while it's 106 outside right now at 5:15PM. I've lived here now for 25 years... still hate it :ironic:


----------



## turbodog

Greta said:


> Just had the AC serviced yesterday. Good to go! It's a lovely 73 degrees in the house... while it's 106 outside right now at 5:15PM. I've lived here now for 25 years... still hate it :ironic:



73? OMG!

We run a/c on 75 in the deep south. What is INDOOR humidity like there? We will be 75 indoors w/ 55-65% humidity indoors.


----------



## ironhorse

But it's a dry heat, right?


----------



## Greta

turbodog said:


> 73? OMG!
> 
> We run a/c on 75 in the deep south. What is INDOOR humidity like there? We will be 75 indoors w/ 55-65% humidity indoors.



Oh our humidity is in single digits inside and out. I hate sweating... I mean... really really HATE it! I'd rather have to put a sweater on than keep wiping sweat off my face and having soaking wet hair.



ironhorse said:


> But it's a dry heat, right?



Tell ya what... turn your oven on to 110 degrees. Stick your head in it. Now tell me if it matters whether it's a dry heat or not... it's just freakin' HOT! Right?


----------



## Johnnyh

I went through Needles CA once in August and was scratching my head as to how the heck there was people there at all. Dry heat my **s! [emoji91][emoji91][emoji91][emoji91][emoji91][emoji91]


----------



## Tejasandre

69 indoors here in texas. Getting a black market haircut Friday. Shhh.


----------



## StarHalo

76 indoors here, which is fine for being idle but you have to turn it down if you're doing work. And I turn it off the moment the temp outside matches.

My haircut [with proper tip] at a corporate cuts place is ~$30, I paid less than that for my clippers over a decade ago and have never paid/waited for a haircut since.


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

ironhorse said:


> But it's a dry heat, right?



Hold yer hand over a lit candle. It's dry heat, shouldn't be uncomfortable. Right?


----------



## nbp

It does make a difference. I was in Phoenix when it was 110 like 15% humidity and it was way more tolerable than a summer day here when its 88 and 70+% humidity. Sweating is useless when it doesn’t evaporate off your body.


----------



## Hooked on Fenix

The governor of California is shutting down all beaches and parks statewide starting Friday, again. San Diego county is also requiring masks be worn in public starting Friday. These restrictions are getting worse. Everyone is getting cabin fever. The more restrictive things get and the longer they last, the less effective they will be because more people will ignore them and fight to end them. This isn't going to end well for anyone. Protesters are going to spread the virus quicker. Politicians are going to lose their jobs, and in the end, everyone is going to be filing lawsuits. I can see light at the end of the tunnel. Uh oh, it's a train.


----------



## bykfixer

Shades of 1918 HoF when folks in San Fran protested wearing masks, including doctors. That led to the San Fran pandemic of 1919. 
https://sfist.com/2020/04/27/histor...-flu-pandemic-who-rallied-against-face-masks/

In the Fixer household we use fans to keep a slight breeze blowing. I grew up in a house with a climate controlled bottom half and non controlled top half. Privacy or comfort. I chose privacy. It paid off later when my livelyhood was working out doors. The fan was your friend. No heat in winter. A down comforter was also your friend. There were about 30 days in spring and about 30 in fall you really appreicated. 
When I married Mrs Fixer her comfort zone was about 0.3 degrees. I was paying the utility bill back then. Mine was about 30.0 due to working outdoors. One day I handed her the utility bills and now hers has become about 20 and mine is down to about 15 due to a high mileage chassis. I am more manager than minion these days so most of my time at work is spent in climate controlled conditions where viruses tend to thrive. 

Meanwhile back at the ranch, my state will begin allowing elective surgeries and dental visits at midnight tonight while protesters holler "free my barber"……


----------



## Dave D

Some folk need to change their mindset, they need to try thinking that it's being done *for* them and not *to* them!


----------



## bykfixer

Dave D said:


> Some folk need to change their mindset, they need to try thinking that it's being done *for* them and not *to* them!



Dave, I had a discussion with a young coworker who has never faced life without what my generation deems conveniences like dine in restaraunts, gymnasiums and airline travel. He honestly did not know you can work out inside your home with ordinary household items. He had no pots and pans nor knew that trains go the same places as airplanes in the continental US. After a few weeks he had learned to cut his own hair, and told me he is actually saving money now instead of living pay check to pay check. 

My supervisor is in his 70's and got used to living the good life. He has relearned that white eggs are just as yummy as brown eggs and that cheap paper towels are also the quicker-picker-upper (old Bounty slogan). 

Yesterday a neighbor approached to carry on a "what do you think of this corona thing" conversation and instinctively stepped back a pace. I thanked him. His mother in law calls it "corona balona", which is driving him nuts he says. We'll adapt. But what bothers me is moms being arrested for taking their kids to a play ground while the leaders are still free to do whatever they want to do. My governor was on tv touting masks yet did not even have one draped around his neck. That's what all the protests are about. Mayors saying you cannot go to a salon but I have to to maintain my image for you. The people in the US without jobs are being told by those who have had virtually no interuption to their lives to comply. Press conferences with reporters standing shoulder to shoulder while the news shows protestors standing (gasp) 3 feet apart. That is what results in protests in a land that was born out of fighting a tyranical group of leaders. 

It's happening all across America, simply because the leaders do not understand the image they portray. Last week when my governor was on tv with a nice looking mask draped around his neck and a wee bit of wind blown look to his hair we the people said "thanks boss, you understand". But yesterday when he touted a fresh haircut, no mask draped around his neck as his staff were all shoulder to shoulder the image he portrayed was way less than "I feel your pain folks". 

My community is hunkered down for the long haul and pretty much scratching our heads at the "corona balona" crowd. Yet we understand where those folks are coming from. Frustration that "We the People" have been told to cower in our homes in fear while they play politics. That is completely opposite of the American way. 

So we'll just see what happens this summer. But I'll venture to say that beaches in California will have to be blanketed with broken glass or tear gas before those people say "uncle".


----------



## Dave D

From the other side of the pond Spain is now releasing plans for the easing of restrictions, from Saturday folk will be allowed to go out for 1 hour a day to exercise and it is expected that certain age groups will be allocated certain time zones to avoid overcrowding of public areas. We have had 7 weeks of lockdown, in reality there has been little requirement for enforcement of the restriction because the vast majority of the population understand that the restrictions have been a necessary evil.

The landmass of Spain is similar to the size of Texas with a population of just under 47 million. To date we have lost over 24,000 people to the virus, France is quickly approaching the same numbers and the United Kingdom has already passed us.

About 12% of GDP in Spain is created by tourism so there is going to be a huge financial effect on the Country, but nobody wants to reopen too soon which will create an increase in cases which may lead to a further lockdown. It is hoped that if the gradual lifting of restriction goes well that Spain should be operating in a 'new normal' by the end of June.

More positive news is that Oxford University (UK) is leading the field in developing a vaccine, they have been working on COVID vaccines for years and are able to adapt some of the work that they have already done to fight COVID-19. Scientists are usually very conservative, when speaking about their work, so this is being seen as a very positive step.

http://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2020-04-30-landmark-partnership-announced-development-covid-19-vaccine


----------



## turbodog

Mississippi reopened this past Monday (3 days ago) to a limited degree: light retail is open, few more businesses, no haircuts, no dine-in retaurants. The # of people 'out and about' has risen greatly. I figure we will see rebound numbers by Friday.


----------



## bykfixer

The partial reopenings should show everybody real soon if spikes will result. A lot of good ideas are floating about how to reopen some things. If my state said today that all you can eat buffet joints could reopen to full capacity I don't think there would be a packed house at first. I know I'd still avoid it, masks or no masks. Same with a packed ball park or night club. We are still on the wrong side of the curve where I am. 

Now not being allowed to even go outside? Arrest me man. I gotta have some fresh air. If going outside on my deck gets me a citation, just shoot me and put me outta my misery man. I really feel for folks being forced to stay indoors. That must be awful.


----------



## Poppy

Yes, MrFixer,
You and I are fortunate that we do have a back deck to sit on.
The population density in my community is about 2,300 / square mile.

Our lots are about 100' x 100' so most of us can do calisthenics in our back yard, lol at least we have room enough to do so. 

I personally am very thankful, that regarding the people that I live with... like my daughter said, "We are really lucky, the we genuinely LIKE each other."

It must be awful for those people who are stuck in cramped apartments with no where to go. Hopefully, most have AC, or the summer heat will be another issue that will force them outside. Parks and beaches will HAVE to be opened, and managed somehow, or there will be riots out of frustration. Hmmm, riots is too strong a term, but I believe that there will be a marked increase in civil disobedience. Distancing will falter.

DD,
That is good news, that they are preparing for mass production of the vaccine, thinking that it will be effective. "Fingers crossed" that it works.


----------



## Dave D

Poppy said:


> DD,
> That is good news, that they are preparing for mass production of the vaccine, thinking that it will be effective. "Fingers crossed" that it works.



Pascal Soriot, the CEO of AstraZeneca confirmed today that they've already started producing the vaccine, so that they'll have enough to satisfy demand in Q4!

There must be a lot of confidence that this one is going to work, it is also going to be supplied at cost during the pandemic.


----------



## bigburly912

Dave D said:


> Pascal Soriot, the CEO of AstraZeneca confirmed today that they've already started producing the vaccine, so that they'll have enough to satisfy demand in Q4!
> 
> There must be a lot of confidence that this one is going to work, it is also going to be supplied at cost during the pandemic.



Until everyone that takes it is walking around like the things on I am Legend.


----------



## StarHalo

Dave D said:


> Pascal Soriot, the CEO of AstraZeneca confirmed today that they've already started producing the vaccine, so that they'll have enough to satisfy demand in Q4!



You'll find ~15% of Americans will decline to take any vaccine, or give it to their kids.


----------



## LeanBurn

I have taken nearly all the vaccines out there, polio,mmr..all the standard ones, no problem, proven with decades of data.

The annual flu vaccine is hit and miss every year however not even 30% effective some years. That poor rate alone with the formaldehyde and mercury content makes me skip it. I haven't gotten the flu in a decade as I practice proper hygiene and a very healthy diet. So it's a non issue for me.

As covid19 flu variant has more than 30 strains and more discovered each week, I find it unlikely that a vaccine will be all encompassing. I am not saying they won't find one, just odd to have an effective one against a virus that is still evolving. Also the lack of proven data over years is another reason why I will refrain from participating in trials for the time being.


----------



## Dave D

StarHalo said:


> You'll find ~15% of Americans will decline to take any vaccine, or give it to their kids.



Apparently it’s more difficult to develop a vaccine for stupid!


----------



## LeanBurn

Greta said:


> Oh our humidity is in single digits inside and out. I hate sweating... I mean... really really HATE it! I'd rather have to put a sweater on than keep wiping sweat off my face and having soaking wet hair.
> 
> 
> 
> Tell ya what... turn your oven on to 110 degrees. Stick your head in it. Now tell me if it matters whether it's a dry heat or not... it's just freakin' HOT! Right?



You'd love my climate. Although it has conditioned me so that anything above 77F is hot...but I am ok with that.


----------



## bykfixer

Only 15%? lol 

When the whole thing began we were in a grocery store behind a frantic shopper we called "mercury mom". I asked a lady behind me "so what do you think of this new beer bug thing". Mercury mom pipes in "No way I'm getting a vaccine, dr so no so at such n such unniversity says they use mercury". She kept going on and on. Talk about social distancing. Everybody around just eased on to other checkout lines even if the wait was longer. The lady behind me did the finger twirl around the ear motion and mouthed "coo coo". That was back when stores still had stockpiles of toilet paper. 

I'm holding out hope nicotine patches work. Quit smoking and thwart the corona at the same time? Heck yeah. Cigarette sales will bottom out faster than rabbits multiply.


----------



## Tejasandre

People will think if nicotine is the answer, I’ll just smoke cigarettes!


----------



## StarHalo

bykfixer said:


> Mercury mom pipes in "No way I'm getting a vaccine, dr so no so at such n such unniversity says they use mercury". She kept going on and on. Talk about social distancing. Everybody around just eased on to other checkout lines even if the wait was longer. The lady behind me did the finger twirl around the ear motion and mouthed "coo coo".



That's the true New Normal; the guy ahead of you in line has a "NO 5G" shirt on, the lady behind you says it's all a hoax made up by Chinese batkeepers, another guy without a mask stands right next to that lady with his smoker's cough, etc.


----------



## bigburly912

StarHalo said:


> That's the true New Normal; the guy ahead of you in line has a "NO 5G" shirt on, the lady behind you says it's all a hoax made up by Chinese batkeepers, another guy without a mask stands right next to that lady with his smoker's cough, etc.



So sad but so true.


----------



## Greta

LeanBurn said:


> You'd love my climate. Although it has conditioned me so that anything above 77F is hot...but I am ok with that.



I'm originally from Upstate NY and I do miss the weather there very much! I FaceTime with my parents and live vicariously through them when it's snowing and blowing and especially with the fall foliage! When it's 110 here, I call Mom and she tells me it's 54 there and I just sigh in longing... :sigh:


----------



## Poppy

LeanBurn said:


> I have taken nearly all the vaccines out there, polio,mmr..all the standard ones, no problem, proven with decades of data.
> 
> The annual flu vaccine is hit and miss every year however not even 30% effective some years. That poor rate alone with the formaldehyde and mercury content makes me skip it. I haven't gotten the flu in a decade as I practice proper hygiene and a very healthy diet. So it's a non issue for me.
> 
> As covid19 flu variant has more than 30 strains and more discovered each week, I find it unlikely that a vaccine will be all encompassing. I am not saying they won't find one, just odd to have an effective one against a virus that is still evolving. Also the lack of proven data over years is another reason why I will refrain from participating in trials for the time being.


From wikipedia 


> The MMR vaccine was developed by Maurice Hilleman.[3]​ It was licensed for use by Merck in 1971.[14]​ Stand alone measles, mumps, and rubella vaccines (German measles) had been previously licensed in 1963, 1967, and 1969 respectively.[14]​[15]​ Recommendations for a second dose were introduced in 1989.[14]​ The MMRV vaccine which also covers chickenpox may be used instead.[4​


I know that I had mumps, and chickenpox as a child. I am pretty sure that I had German measles, maybe regular measles too. At some time in my life I got a Tetanus vaccine, and I think I got a tetanus booster once too. I also got the Polio vaccine.

I don't know if I ever got the flu, I've never been vaccinated for it, nor have I had any other vaccine.

Yesterday, I was speaking with a long term friend who routinely gets any vaccination offered by his MD, and I told him that I would probably get this one when it comes out.

I think the formaldehyde and mercury in the shots are as a preservative. Knowing that there is a small amount of evidence that those preservatives *may* be linked to autism, some parents insist on individual shots that do not have the preservatives that are put into the small multi-dose jars. 

I am curious to know, if I have been exposed and if I have already built up antibodies. Therefore I will probably ask to be tested prior getting any vaccination.

I agree with what you said above that it is VERY unlikely that it will be all encompassing. Hopefully it will be similar enough that the body will be able to say "hmmm, I've seen something like this before" and be able to get to work faster.


----------



## idleprocess

Poppy said:


> I think the formaldehyde and mercury in the shots are as a preservative. Knowing that there is a small amount of evidence that those preservatives *may* be linked to autism, some parents insist on individual shots that do not have the preservatives that are put into the small multi-dose jars.



If there's a link between the two, _science hasn't been able to find it_, which is about as close as science gets to saying "X does not cause Y".

Thiomersal (C9H9HgNaO2S) is the preservative in question. It's largely not used in the United States for mandatory multidose vaccinations although some less-common multidose vaccines still use it; I believe that far more expensive single-dose vaccines can be had if absolutely required for nearly all situations.


----------



## StarHalo

- The CDC published a document of guidelines [not directives/laws] for schools and businesses to use for reopening; they're recommending schools not do field trips and have lunches in their classrooms and not a cafeteria. Restaurants should space everyone out preferably outdoors, move toward disposable menus, plates and utensils, switch to single-use condiments, install sneeze guards at cash registers, and avoid salad bars, buffets and self-serve drink stations.

- Beer sales are skyrocketing, specifically store-shelf light beers, as consumers want more to drink but appear to be concerned about calories as they're not moving around as much in quarantine. Craft sales are hurt, as most craft brewers make the majority of their sales in their taprooms, which have been closed. 

- Amazon sold $33 million of goods per hour over the last 90 days. The company will be spending next quarter's entire profit margin on COVID safety-related expenses.


----------



## Poppy

idleprocess said:


> If there's a link between the two, _science hasn't been able to find it_, which is about as close as science gets to saying "X does not cause Y".
> 
> Thiomersal (C9H9HgNaO2S) is the preservative in question. It's largely not used in the United States for mandatory multidose vaccinations although some less-common multidose vaccines still use it; I believe that far more expensive single-dose vaccines can be had if absolutely required for nearly all situations.



My twin grandkids were three months pre-mature and stayed in the hospital for three months much of the time in incubators. My wife and daughter knew that something was "not average" about them and the pediatrician was very hesitant to diagnose them as being on the autistic spectrum. I don't recall if it was her, or another specialist who labeled them with the diagnosis. When they went to pre-K early intervention, they had to be vaccinated prior to admittance. 

The doctor tried for awhile to get individual doses so that the injections could be spread apart, rather than three or four at a time. She tried for a while. They were unobtainable. I don't remember if she finally succeeded, or not. It was a challenge though.


----------



## bigburly912

A pediatrician diagnosed them at 3 months with autism?????


----------



## Poppy

bigburly912 said:


> A pediatrician diagnosed them at 3 months with autism?????



NO.

Re-reading my post I could see how you might think that. I was certainly not clear.

IDK how long it took but my daughter fought for them to get early intervention. Physical therapist, speech therapists, occupational therapists. And they had to wear helmets to reshape their skulls as they grew.

One was not verbal until about 3.5 years, maybe 4 years.


----------



## idleprocess

Poppy said:


> My twin grandkids were three months pre-mature and stayed in the hospital for three months much of the time in incubators.


That's a _heck of a bad hand_ to be dealt at life's starting round.



bigburly912 said:


> A pediatrician diagnosed them at 3 months with autism?????


My read was that this happened some time later.


----------



## coffeecup66

Dave D said:


> ...
> The landmass of Spain is similar to the size of Texas with a population of just under 47 million. To date we have lost over 24,000 people to the virus, _*France is quickly approaching the same numbers*_ and the United Kingdom has already passed us.
> ...


Good misrepresentation of things.

France's population is over 67 million ... - meaning nowhere near Spain's.

As for the UK, same thing, it's population is around 66.5 million with a toll of nearly 26 800 pax.
There also, nowhere near Spain's death rate, meaning in proportion to population.


Quick "global" overview :
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/


Cheers.


----------



## bykfixer

I went back in time and re-read a bunch of articles and news accounts from late 2019 and early 2020 and it seemed everybody knew there was this new virus sweeping across places in China, that it had gotten out and was wreaking havoc in other nearby countries yet nobody thought it would be a problem on Valentines day. We were all making fun of pictures of cats wearing masks. Little did we know that by St Patricks day we'd all be saying "woah, this thing is serious". I found all kinds of facebook memes pretty much saying "yeah, yeah, yeah whatever, bring on baseball or March Madness. 

He we are a few days from sinco de mayo going "can't I just get a haircut?" Yup, there's a small history to this 2020 pandemic already. It's like April was 6 days long this year. A lot has happened in the last 60 days that will likely cause changes in behaviors for some for a generation. For some April was 799 days long as each day of "lock down" must have seemed like a whole month. Good Gosh. For some it has been business as usual, almost and some have had their world tossed around like a Kansas tornadoe in spring time. 

Each mornings commute for me takes me past two nursing homes and a hospital. I see signs like "heroes work here", American flags and flowers. It kinda puts things in perspective each morning and I try to remember to meditate some positive juju for folks inside, be it patients or workers. I forgot to this morning as it was raining 5 gallon buckets and I had pushed some button in my truck somewhere that had the robo lady saying "please enter a command". I actually hollered out "go go gadget paddles" at one point hoping the robo lady could deploy some kind of James Bond underwater features or just shut the **** up. It was like driving in white water rapids as the winds tossed me around, but at one point I gathered it up and thought about the folks fighting to help others or folks who have to wait on a bus in that weather. 

Life in America is still pretty good for most as the "recovery" numbers start to roll in across the death clock pages. I pondered if the new experimental antacid treatment is helping some. Yup, doctors are pumping large doses of the active ingredient in Pepcid AC in places since it seems it supposedly helped some in Wuhan early on. Will it be a day when somebody discovers something simple will work like bread mold was found to become penecillin? 
Nature probably has a cure out there. Can the human race stumble across it in our lifetimes? 

History will show someday.


----------



## lion504

Some doctors, and other people: "Maybe this lockdown strategy isn't so great. Let's talk about some alternative hypotheses, like what Sweden's doing."

Big Tech: "Talking about Sweden is misinformation and will be banned. Only WHO sanctioned mitigations are permitted."

WHO: "We should follow the Sweden model."


----------



## StarHalo

Fisher-Price Thank You Heroes action figures; delivery driver, doctor, EMT, and nurse sets:






For younger aspirants, Little People Thank You figurines; a single set with EMT, grocery worker, doctor, delivery driver, nurse:





Preorder at Mattel Playroom online, proceeds go to #FirstRespondersFirst


----------



## Dave D

coffeecup66 said:


> Good misrepresentation of things.
> 
> France's population is over 67 million ... - meaning nowhere near Spain's.
> 
> As for the UK, same thing, it's population is around 66.5 million with a toll of nearly 26 800 pax.
> There also, nowhere near Spain's death rate, meaning in proportion to population.
> 
> 
> Quick "global" overview :
> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1104709/coronavirus-deaths-worldwide-per-million-inhabitants/
> 
> 
> Cheers.



I didn't misrepresent anything, I was quoting numbers of deaths not the proportion of the population!

Most countries are at different points in the pandemic, so there is little point calculating percentages now, we will not know the true figures until this is all over.

Stay safe.


----------



## RBR

.....


----------



## 5S8Zh5

Is It Time To Quarantine Junk Food? | Dr. Mark Cucuzzella 4-16-20

Ep73 – Vitamin D Status and Viral Interactions…The Science 4-27-20


----------



## bykfixer

RBR said:


> Barber shops to re-open on Monday next week here. Tried to book a haircut and got a date on Tuesday the week after...



We have black market barber shops here right now. "please make it a bit shabby so 5-o won't know I just got a haircut".


----------



## lion504

StarHalo said:


> Preorder at Mattel Playroom online, proceeds go to #FirstRespondersFirst



Thoughtful move by Fisher Price. Kudos...


----------



## Devildude

The Baseball Hall of Fame cancelled this years induction ceremony. I was figuring the crowds would be insane and I would have to head south that weekend, now it looks like next year will be my first summer trip in years. The plus of the situation is I will be able to drive through Cooperstown with ease all summer as I make my way to the job I have had for the last 11 years.


----------



## coffeecup66

Dave D said:


> _*I didn't misrepresent*_ anything, I was _*quoting numbers*_ of deaths not the proportion of the population!
> ...



So if someone writes that *47 million* are infected or died in India or China, and that _*Spain is quickly approaching the same numbers*, _I'll just read that as identical quantities, nevermind the representation in terms of proportion.



Famous last words : "... _But it's a dry heat, right?_"


----------



## StarHalo

- ESPN is said to be completing a deal with the Korean Baseball Organization to broadcast their games in the US; the South Korean professional league is currently playing standard pre-season games with no stadium audiences, their full season begins May 5th.

- ESPN is also bringing back their farcical "ESPN8: The Ocho" pseudo-channel tomorrow/Saturday; coverage will include marble racing, arm wrestling, Tetris, stone skipping, mini golf, and lawn mower racing among others. 

- Best Buy will be re-opening 200 stores over the next week, however you will need an appointment to enter the store, and employees must wipe down any item before you touch it.


----------



## ven

Some potentially good news, looks like if you have had covid19 then you are not likely to get again. From the report, it appears that the early tests were false positives (diagnosis). So catching it the 2nd time was actually the 1st! (Sky news report). 

Looking to find out if the vaccine tests being carried out , will be a success or not in July . This with hopefully not being possible catching it a second time, can only be good news down the line. 

Safe weekend CPF


----------



## Dave D

coffeecup66 said:


> So if someone writes that *47 million* are infected or died in India or China, and that _*Spain is quickly approaching the same numbers*, _I'll just read that as identical quantities, nevermind the representation in terms of proportion.
> 
> 
> 
> Famous last words : "... _But it's a dry heat, right?_"



You can read it as whatever you want to read it as, but it’s not what I wrote!

Just under 25,000 dead in Spain and France is bad in my opinion but if you need a pat on the back for the wonderful job that France has done because they have a larger population then carry on.


----------



## Poppy

ven said:


> Some potentially good news, looks like if you have had covid19 then you are not likely to get again. From the report, it appears that the early tests were false positives (diagnosis). So catching it the 2nd time was actually the 1st! (Sky news report).
> 
> Looking to find out if the vaccine tests being carried out , will be a success or not in July . This with hopefully not being possible catching it a second time, can only be good news down the line.
> 
> Safe weekend CPF



Good news ven!
Thanks for reporting.

You too, stay safe!


----------



## bykfixer

I gave my young trainee at work a homework assignment today. Spend 4 hours researching the Spanish flu. Begin in 1916 and study until 1920. The kid has a very inquisitive nature so I knew if I gave him a specific period he would do more than gloss over the top stories the google puts out at first. Deep research will be required. 

We had a phylisophical discussion of why two law suits went the way they did in my state. 

One was a shooting range was allowed to reopen. The other a chain of gymnasiums not. The shooting range is smack dab in the center of a bunch of Hooterville sized towns where the law enforcement folks no longer had a place to train. In big cities they have their own facilities, yet at this location police from 50 miles in every direction train at this one spot. A judge deemed it more essential than the stay at home decree allows. He cited 2nd Amendment and all that too, but it is a place to help keep surrounding communities safe. 

The same judge ruled that a chain of gynmasiums in a metropolitan area was not as essential as the stay at home decree. Folks can work out with ordinary household items. At least for now. I reminded him how a few weeks back I taught him how to work out with gallon jugs, broom handles, bench press a dining room chair etc. 

Now the thing he was getting at was "is the low volume of carnage in the population worth all of the economic costs". He mentioned Americas founding was to fight tyranny to the death if need be. "this is a virus that 98% survive from" he said. I agree on both fronts and reminded him that once upon a time in America there was an 80% chance moving out west would cost you your life but millions tried anyway. "yeah, yeah" he says. But "they were largely folks trying to escape disease, famine, joblessness and other issues faced went living on the east coast" I said "and now you go west, you go south, you go north or east, you cross the friggin ocean and you face the same potentially deadly virus no matter where you go". 

I honestly feel this thing is over blown in a lot of places, yet at the same time if you get it chances are great you will live sure. However the dirty little secret is it might leave behind a permanent reminder like chronic athsma and anybody who deals with it knows it's like trying to breath through a dish rag. I reminded him millions returned home from WW1 alive but after being near gas warfare spent the rest of their days with breathing issues. I said "I don't know about you but for me if I can avoid the sensation of breathing through a wet dish rag by avoiding certain 'luxuries' for a few months I'm ok with that". I reminded him that there's way more life behind me than in front of me, yet he probably has way more ahead of him than behind him (he's 26) so he should consider the inconvenience as a temporary thing. 

So I asked him to study what we did wrong during the 1916 to 1920 period and take note how quickly the American economy zoomed again. I said "for bonus points study the roaring 20's" because we are headed there again.


----------



## turbodog

If you are looking for some hard data for you state, some that will tell you where you are headed...

Go find historical infection data. You will need each day. Put in into excel. Then calculate the infection percentage for each day based on population. Finally, graph this data against # of days since infection #1, be sure to use a log scale for the 'y' axis.

You will probably find a nice straight line (headed upwards) at first, then it will start to curve. If it's flattened out and headed down you are good (but I'd wait to get that haircut anyway).


----------



## ven

Someone say haircut






Self inflicted as per usual

I dont think i have been to a barbers (other than taking my lad) for myself in over 25yrs. 

Have a safe weekend all, hoping for a little window of sun later for some BBQ action.


----------



## Dave D

My 30 years old Wahl's are still going strong, however I bought the optional various sized comb attachments, #3 on the sides and #8 on the top, helps keep the helmet hair in check! :twothumbs


----------



## ven

Dave D said:


> My 30 years old Wahl's are still going strong, however I bought the optional various sized comb attachments, #3 on the sides and #8 on the top, helps keep the helmet hair in check! :twothumbs



I use wahl clippers to, i just get 50 shades of grey in tufts, when the tufts come, the clippers come out


----------



## bykfixer

Haircuts are over rated.


----------



## bigburly912

I’d have to write you up over that haircut Mr. Fixer.


----------



## SCEMan

ven said:


> Someone say haircut
> 
> 
> Self inflicted as per usual
> 
> I dont think i have been to a barbers (other than taking my lad) for myself in over 25yrs.
> 
> Have a safe weekend all, hoping for a little window of sun later for some BBQ action.



Looks good on you! 
Not so much for me plus I want to keep my hair while I still have it...


----------



## ven

SCEMan said:


> Looks good on you!
> Not so much for me plus I want to keep my hair while I still have it...



Thank you sir, its pretty much the same hair cut(less grey in past)for the last 25+yrs. Every 2 -3 weeks rinse repeat(well other way actually). 1.5mm, or number 0. My lad is not over impressed though since the restrictions, he seems happy with a 6mm all over. I have done a 1mm back and sides and 6mm on top blended in..........gee sound like a hair dresser! 

Stay safe


----------



## knucklegary

^^ at first glance thought Jason Statham was on CPF!


----------



## bigburly912

knucklegary said:


> ^^ at first glance thought Jason Statham was on CPF!



Liam Neeson


----------



## SCEMan

If you live in my state, this could be coming to your neighborhood too  

_"In early April, the California Judicial Council established a new policy setting bail at zero for most misdemeanor and low-level felonies to keep the jail population lower during the coronavirus crisis."

_https://abc7news.com/california-zero-bail-prison-overcrowding-glendora-police-ca/6144239/


----------



## bigburly912

Virginia has been doing that. There’s a guy in my neighborhood that got caught with over 100000 in stolen goods and damaged. Yes, really, that they will not arrest yet because of the pandemic.


----------



## StarHalo

turbodog said:


> If it's flattened out and headed down you are good (but I'd wait to get that haircut anyway).



It's not flattened out or headed down in any state, and now everything is reopening.


----------



## Hooked on Fenix

SCEMan said:


> If you live in my state, this could be coming to your neighborhood too
> 
> _"In early April, the California Judicial Council established a new policy setting bail at zero for most misdemeanor and low-level felonies to keep the jail population lower during the coronavirus crisis."
> 
> _https://abc7news.com/california-zero-bail-prison-overcrowding-glendora-police-ca/6144239/



I think we need to consider harsher punishments as a deterrent to crime other than jail time. With all of these lockdowns in place, these violent offenders that suffer no consequences are going to get a lot more people killed than the virus. Within this last week, there was an arsonist who burned down some buildings in Mira Mesa, CA. A judge recently ordered some violent offenders released in CA against the wishes of the police. We can't stay safe in our homes with these criminals on the loose and no justice for the people. That's anarchy.


----------



## SCEMan

Hooked on Fenix said:


> A judge recently ordered some violent offenders released in CA against the wishes of the police. We can't stay safe in our homes with these criminals on the loose and no justice for the people. That's anarchy.



But in Crimeafornia, violent crime is a negotiable term when prison/jail space is non-existent.
https://www.foxla.com/news/sex-offe...-jail-allegedly-exposes-self-at-parole-center


----------



## mightysparrow

Hooked on Fenix said:


> I think we need to consider harsher punishments as a deterrent to crime other than jail time. With all of these lockdowns in place, these violent offenders that suffer no consequences are going to get a lot more people killed than the virus. Within this last week, there was an arsonist who burned down some buildings in Mira Mesa, CA. A judge recently ordered some violent offenders released in CA against the wishes of the police. We can't stay safe in our homes with these criminals on the loose and no justice for the people. That's anarchy.



In the USA, we don’t allow the police to decide issues relating to the scope of our constitutional rights and how the criminal justice system will best safeguard the citizens as a group during a pandemic, while carrying out the goals of the criminal justice system.

It isn’t clear what violent offenders you’re referring to. In general, people are not in prison long, if at all, for committing misdemeanors and low level felonies. These are not the violent criminals we need to be worried about making us unsafe in our homes. Moreover, they aren’t going to kill anywhere near as many people as are killed by the virus.


----------



## bykfixer

In my state the numbers are trending in a favorable direction. Testing of symptomatic people at first (at the tail end of flu season) was about 30 tests for each covid case. We were rising in positives at about 3 days to double the number. 

As they increased testing numbers and the flu virus cases dwindled it was as bad as 6 tests for each covid case. At that point cases doubled about every two to three days. 
We have test centers galore now. The numbers of tested has increased tremendously now and we are back to about 10 tested folks per case. It now takes several days for positives to double. With the huge increased number of tests case numbers are still climbing but the trend is heading in the right direction.

Instead of a giant upside down V our curve has a nice long shallow pitch and is nearly flat despite all the testing. It's still moving up hill though so it aint time to get all cozy'd up with strangers in a movie theatre or buffet joint. But it is looking like safely having a nice steak on an outside patio or going to a golf ball driving range aint far off.

Our local communities are lobbying the governor with novel ideas on how to allow some outdoor activities to re-open (as many were closed for winter anyway) while allowing certain safety procedures to be incorparated. The governor is rumored to be listening intently at the communities. Our state has a balanced budget requirement on June 30 and with revenues way down he only has a short time to balance things out.


----------



## Hooked on Fenix

mightysparrow said:


> In the USA, we don’t allow the police to decide issues relating to the scope of our constitutional rights and how the criminal justice system will best safeguard the citizens as a group during a pandemic, while carrying out the goals of the criminal justice system.
> 
> It isn’t clear what violent offenders you’re referring to. In general, people are not in prison long, if at all, for commuting misdemeanors and low level felonies. These are not the violent criminals we need to be worried about making us unsafe in our homes. Moreover, they aren’t going to kill anywhere near as many people as are killed by the virus.



Here's the article about the violent sex offenders released by court order against the wishes of law enforcement: https://abc7news.com/orange-county-sex-offenders-crime-jail/6138210

Here's an article about someone suspected of assault, being brought to jail by a park ranger, then escaped and shot to death by police: https://www.cbs8.com/article/news/l...tody/509-ca96ea85-fbfe-4abe-9f6c-0e93ef5f1121

Either there is more to the story than that article, or the police are tired of catching and releasing criminals that are trying to hurt people. Be careful out there. It's turning into the wild west.


----------



## StarHalo

bykfixer said:


> In my state the numbers are trending in a favorable direction.
> 
> With the huge increased number of tests case numbers are still climbing but the trend is heading in the right direction.
> 
> Instead of a giant upside down V our curve has a nice long shallow pitch and is nearly flat despite all the testing. It's still moving up hill though so it aint time to get all cozy'd up with strangers in a movie theatre or buffet joint. But it is looking like safely having a nice steak on an outside patio or going to a golf ball driving range aint far off.



A nearly flat logarithmic curve is still an accumulation, as revealed by the linear curve (but everyone is still going to go golfing)


----------



## PhotonWrangler

We still need to get everyone else tested after the symptomatic ones have been taken care of. My state is planning on doing some serology testing in some communities to get a sense of how many asymptomatics and recovered people there are.


----------



## bigburly912

StarHalo said:


> A nearly flat logarithmic curve is still an accumulation, as revealed by the linear curve (but everyone is still going to go golfing)



That’s exactly what he just said. ??


----------



## StarHalo

bigburly912 said:


> That’s exactly what he just said. ??



He said that having a nearly flat curve is a favorable direction; lifting stay at home orders will not keep that trend.


----------



## scout24

Branching out from CNN, there are 14 states with declining cases, in addition to 20 where cases are "mostly the same"...
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/coronavirus-us-cases.html


----------



## bigburly912

StarHalo said:


> He said that having a nearly flat curve is a favorable direction; lifting stay at home orders will not keep that trend.



You really have to argue with nothing don’t you. And yes, I typed that correctly. He said “we are still moving uphill” so we aren’t ready to open up yet. The fact it has slowed down with exponentially more tests IS a positive even if we are still seeing cases. Our governor has said the only smart thing since he’s been in office and that’s we won’t open until we have 2 weeks straight of good news.


----------



## StarHalo

scout24 said:


> Branching out from CNN, there are 14 states with declining cases, in addition to 8+ where cases are "mostly the same"...
> https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/coronavirus-us-cases.html



The "CNN" chart from Johns Hopkins shows total cases, not total new cases; it's linear vs logarithmic, and will shift with the lifting of stay at home orders.


----------



## bykfixer

Well CNN said it so it must be true……

I said less people are getting sick as fast as they were.

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/new-cases
Just look at all the platues across the planet. 

Looking at just case numbers will always point up until the day there are zero new numbers. That will be the edge of graph. If you do that the Spanish flu of 1918 are still rising as morphed versions have popped up every few decades. Last one was 94-96.

Infection rates are what governments like Italy, Spain, America etc are looking at. Just like Dr Fauchi and Byrx said they would be. And in my state infection rates are getting better too.


----------



## StarHalo

bigburly912 said:


> You really have to argue with nothing don’t you.



A decrease in the acceleration of deaths that is now clearly temporary is not a favorable direction. As with the last thread, I'm pointing out that there will come a time in the near future when these rosy predictions will look premature, and we would be better served preparing for worse conditions than resting on our laurels.


----------



## scout24

StarHalo said:


> It's not flattened out or headed down in any state, and now everything is reopening.



Your post stated "It's not flattening out or headed down in any state"


----------



## scout24

StarHalo said:


> A decrease in the acceleration of deaths that is now clearly temporary is not a favorable direction. As with the last thread, I'm pointing out that there will come a time in the near future when these rosy predictions will look premature, and we would be better served preparing for worse conditions than resting on our laurels.



Please explain how a decrease in acceleration of deaths is not favorable?


----------



## bykfixer

Some are scared and waiting on their government to allow them to proceed. 
Some are not. 
Some just want this thing over. 
Some do not. 
Some prefer the opposite view point of tradition. 
Some prefer tradition. 
Some wait around to be told what to do. 
Some prefer the opposite. 

Some think corona virus is the worst thing to happen to the human race since the ice age. 
Others prefer to have a more positive view, while proceeding with caution.

Some prefer to be the Tokyo Rose of CPF. 
8/10 split, was an easy spare.


----------



## StarHalo

scout24 said:


> Your post stated "It's not flattening out or headed down in any state"



It says "not flattened"; a slight curve on a logarithmic scale is a much larger curve on a liner scale. And this chart shows total number of cases, not new cases - the total number of cases will never go down.



scout24 said:


> Please explain how a decrease in acceleration of deaths is not favorable?



Our rate is still accelerating even after we've surpassed other countries, that is not favorable and points to an exceptional problem.


----------



## bigburly912

How is that possible with no testing available?


----------



## scout24

You're talking in circles trying to defend what you wrote. Your posts says it's not flattening, not "not flattened. Your post, #152 above, says it's not flattening or headed down in any state. That's not true. Our number of cases is increasing, yes. Please show us how it is accelerating. Those words mean different things.


----------



## StarHalo

scout24 said:


> You're talking in circles trying to defend what you wrote. Your posts says it's not flattening, not "not flattened. Your post, #152 above, says it's not flattening or headed down in any state. That's not true. Our number of cases is increasing, yes. Please show us how it is accelerating. Those words mean different things.



You're repeating the same counterpoints because you're not correctly interpreting the graphs. If the number of total cases is increasing, then it's not flattening. If the national new cases is increasing, then it's accelerating, which is especially true if stay at home is lifted. Putting these two data points together means it will not go down, that is not favorable.


----------



## scout24

Incorrect. My car's odometer continues to rack up mileage even if I'm slowing down for an exit off the highway... And if 14 states are saying the rate at which it's adding new cases is slowing down for them, then it is. Distance travelled may be increasing but the rate at which you get there is not. You're trying to extrapolate what lifting restrictions is going to do, to try to prove your point. And I'm debating your words, not the graphs you provided.


----------



## StarHalo

scout24 said:


> Incorrect. My car's odometer continues to rack up mileage even if I'm slowing down for an exit off the highway... And if 14 states are saying the rate at which it's adding new cases is slowing down for them, then it is. Distance travelled may be increasing but the rate at which you get there is not. You're trying to extrapolate what lifting restrictions is going to do, to try to prove your point. And I'm debating your words, not the graphs you provided.



You are free to debate the meaning of "favorable", I don't think that a mere decrease in acceleration when you're about to hit the car in front of you is the goal.


----------



## bigburly912

On a happy note I’m down to 255. 30 to go and I’ll be where I want to be.


----------



## scout24

I'm not debating the meaning of favorable, I'm quite clear on it's meaning. I asked you to clarify your use of it. I provided you links to a story with charts that contradicted what you said, and you've ignored that. I've asked about your use of " still accelerating" while providing a distinction between accumulating and accelerating. You've not addressed either, while throwing different points into the discussion. Don't misunderstand me, I believe this is deadly serious. I just don't understand your tact of distract/avoid/ "I'm done" when challenged. And a decrease in speed, of any amount, can't hurt.


----------



## scout24

Bigburly- Commendable in any environment, but especially under lockdown! 👍


----------



## StarHalo

bigburly912 said:


> On a happy note I’m down to 255. 30 to go and I’ll be where I want to be.



500 kcals under maintenance = 2 lbs per week, you could be there at the start of August.


----------



## StarHalo

scout24 said:


> I believe this is deadly serious.
> 
> And a decrease in speed, of any amount, can't hurt.



Looks like the argument isn't with me, sorry.


----------



## scout24

Nobody is arguing. And you've proven my point nicely. Thank you.


----------



## StarHalo

bykfixer said:


> Our local communities are lobbying the governor with novel ideas on how to allow some outdoor activities to re-open (as many were closed for winter anyway) while allowing certain safety procedures to be incorparated.



This should be the goal; people working with their government to find logical compromises to work within safety guidelines. The "let's just go back to how it was" approach based on calendar dates and not science will leave us all in an unfavorable position.


----------



## knucklegary

Star.. Has any of your Amz co workers ever tried strangling you with their bare hands

Rhetorically speaking :whoopin:


----------



## bigburly912

knucklegary said:


> Star.. Has any of your Amz co workers ever tried strangling you with their bare hands
> 
> Rhetorically speaking :whoopin:



Now now


----------



## mightysparrow

Hooked on Fenix said:


> Here's the article about the violent sex offenders released by court order against the wishes of law enforcement: https://abc7news.com/orange-county-sex-offenders-crime-jail/6138210
> 
> Here's an article about someone suspected of assault, being brought to jail by a park ranger, then escaped and shot to death by police: https://www.cbs8.com/article/news/l...tody/509-ca96ea85-fbfe-4abe-9f6c-0e93ef5f1121
> 
> Either there is more to the story than that article, or the police are tired of catching and releasing criminals that are trying to hurt people. Be careful out there. It's turning into the wild west.



Hmmm. There will always be prisoners released who turn around and commit more crimes. We can’t afford to keep people in prison forever, after all, and the idea of punishment in a constitutional republic is based on proportionate punishment depending on the crime, and the defendant’s record. Cruel and unusual punishments are specifically banned by the constitution. 

As for the frustration of officers, I can only speak from 20 years of working directly with officers in my job in the prosecutor’s office. I am very familiar with the frustration of officers when we constantly “no paper” their arrests/lockup’s or reduce the charges. But we have a constitution at the local and federal level that says the police have to meet the burden of proof to have the arrestee charged with a particular crime. And the state has to be held to an even higher standard to protect everyone’s rights as we try to get justice for victims and the community. It’s been my experience that the majority of officers appreciate the requirements placed on them to meet the legal standards we hold them to, because they know the arrestee will ultimately be convicted if they make a good arrest with the arrest charges proven without a doubt. 

Aside from that, assault is a low level misdemeanor. Running from a simple assault charge is bizarre. Where I live and work, you can be convicted of assault many times and only get probation. Nobody goes to prison for an assault conviction. Shooting the guy is also strange. That is going to be a problem for the officers involved, unless the guy was endangering their lives in some way, before he was shot. 

Finally, in the a United States, the police don’t determine how much prison time or other punishments are imposed on people convicted of crimes. The punishments or other remedies (drug treatment, community service, etc) are determined by the legislative bodies and the court system, often in consultation with experts.


----------



## bykfixer

Thanks for doing what you do sparrow. (saluting)


----------



## bykfixer

knucklegary said:


> Star.. Has any of your Amz co workers ever tried strangling you with their bare hands
> 
> Rhetorically speaking :whoopin:



Clean up on aisle 4. I just sprayed gatorade all over my coffee table. 
Thanks for the laugh.


----------



## PhotonWrangler

5S8Zh5 said:


> Is It Time To Quarantine Junk Food? | Dr. Mark Cucuzzella 4-16-20
> 
> Ep73 – Vitamin D Status and Viral Interactions…The Science 4-27-20



Thank you for posting the story on Vitamin D. This is the second story I've seen about it, and there does appear to be something interesting going on here.


----------



## knucklegary

Byk, hate to admit it but i am tuning in to read Star, as well other members contribution to this thread.. But without Star it wouldn't be as much fun!
Take care


----------



## Poppy

We are presented with different graphs pertaining to the covid-19 virus.
Although they give a pictorial representation of what is going on, they rarely give a complete picture. Actually a number of graphs overlaid are necessary to look at, but they are NOT usually presented. Not even separately so that one could do an analysis himself.

A not too meaningful graph is the never ending graph of total number of cases. It will always continue to go up. (Please cut me slack for the use of the adjective Always)
One that would be a little more meaningful would be one that showed the number of cases that are "active" Meaning, the total of cases, with the number of resolved cases subtracted. (Maybe they don't know when a case is resolved).

There are more tests available now than initially, and the protocols for who is eligible to be tested has changed over time. Originally only those who his/her doctor thought, most likely had the virus (fever, dry cough, difficulty breathing) were permitted to go get tested. As a result, a very high percentage tested positive. Certainly there were many who contracted the disease, but did not progress to "Difficulty breathing" and did not get tested. Since those people are not on any charts/graphs, they are not included in any calculations. I suppose other than to be counted as a member of the general populace NOT infected.
Now that testing is more available, and the protocols have loosened, more people who are less symptomatic, are being tested. Initially in my community, 80% of those tested, tested positive, now... only 41% test positive. That says to me that the numbers of positive cases on the graphs should have been higher initially, because more less severe symptomatic people who had the disease would have been tested, and would have tested positive, but the tests weren't available.

So when I see an increase in positive cases today, I can't very well compare it to the positive cases of last week, or two weeks ago. Also, now it might be helpful to have a break-down of the severity of the symptoms and graph that. 

So much to know... so little information offered.

In this time of stress, let's give consolation when it is needed, and whenever possible speak in the positive.

Here's to Love to my CPF friends!


----------



## Greta

StarHalo said:


> You're repeating the same counterpoints because you're not correctly interpreting the graphs. If the number of total cases is increasing, then it's not flattening. If the national new cases is increasing, then it's accelerating, which is especially true if stay at home is lifted. Putting these two data points together means it will not go down, that is not favorable.



 - you do realize that by this logic, each new case... even if it's just one next year... means it's accelerating.. right? And by that logic, it will ALWAYS accelerate. Scout is correct - there is a huge difference between the words "increase" and "accelerate". Let's go to the dictionary, shall we? 

*in·crease*

_verb_
/inˈkrēs/




become or make greater in size, amount, intensity, or degree.

_noun_
/ˈinkrēs/
an instance of growing or making greater.

*ac·cel·er·ate*

/əkˈseləˌrāt/

_verb_



(of a vehicle or other physical object) begin to move more quickly.
PHYSICS
undergo a change in velocity.


Do you see it now? It may seem like it is simply a case of semantics but it is not. Both mean movement. But one clearly relates to the speed of movement rather than just plain old movement. You used the wrong word, SH. And it makes your whole argument invalid.


----------



## Poppy

Said another way...
Equation for Acceleration
Another formula, acceleration (a) equals change in *velocity* (Δv) divided by change in time (Δt), calculates the rate of change in *velocity* over time. This formula may be written a = Δv ÷ Δt.
--------------------------------

In the graph that you SH presented, the change of the (increase of number of people testing positive) Divided by Time for the past two weeks has decreased compared to the previous two weeks. Therefore you have a negative acceleration, Otherwise known as Deceleration.


----------



## Hooked on Fenix

mightysparrow said:


> Hmmm. There will always be prisoners released who turn around and commit more crimes. We can’t afford to keep people in prison forever, after all, and the idea of punishment in a constitutional republic is based on proportionate punishment depending on the crime, and the defendant’s record. Cruel and unusual punishments are specifically banned by the constitution.
> 
> As for the frustration of officers, I can only speak from 20 years of working directly with officers in my job in the prosecutor’s office. I am very familiar with the frustration of officers when we constantly “no paper” their arrests/lockup’s or reduce the charges. But we have a constitution at the local and federal level that says the police have to meet the burden of proof to have the arrestee charged with a particular crime. And the state has to be held to an even higher standard to protect everyone’s rights as we try to get justice for victims and the community. It’s been my experience that the majority of officers appreciate the requirements placed on them to meet the legal standards we hold them to, because they know the arrestee will ultimately be convicted if they make a good arrest with the arrest charges proven without a doubt.
> 
> Aside from that, assault is a low level misdemeanor. Running from a simple assault charge is bizarre. Where I live and work, you can be convicted of assault many times and only get probation. Nobody goes to prison for an assault conviction. Shooting the guy is also strange. That is going to be a problem for the officers involved, unless the guy was endangering their lives in some way, before he was shot.
> 
> Finally, in the a United States, the police don’t determine how much prison time or other punishments are imposed on people convicted of crimes. The punishments or other remedies (drug treatment, community service, etc) are determined by the legislative bodies and the court system, often in consultation with experts.


I know how things are supposed to work under our form of government. However, when you close the court houses and release the criminals right after they are arrested (including the violent repeat offenders) something's got to give. Either the people will take matters into their own hands, the police will do the same breaking the law to protect the people, or the criminals will have free reign to hurt people. I'm not saying it's right. I'm not saying I'm okay with it. I'm saying it's happening and we should be prepared for it. The police and our government do not have the resources to protect the people so drastic measures are going to be taken to attempt to keep people in line. I think the constitution went out the window when they released criminals while ordering law abiding citizens to stay in their homes and telling some that they couldn't provide for their families while others could.


----------



## StarHalo

Greta said:


> Do you see it now? It may seem like it is simply a case of semantics but it is not. Both mean movement. But one clearly relates to the speed of movement rather than just plain old movement.



The goal is a death rate commensurate with the one that preceded the epidemic. If new cases, which generate the deaths, is not low enough to balance those two death rates, you're still under an epidemic. You can invalidate and even delete the argument as long as we can all agree to take the problem seriously, that's in the next post:


----------



## StarHalo

Quick review:

Some of you folks who are newer here might not be aware of a guy we used to have called Sub_Umbra; his posts are still available in a broad range of prep-centric topics if you look back far enough, where you can read about how he sheltered in place in downtown New Orleans during and after Hurricane Katrina. If you recall the images in and around the flooded French Quarter where people begged helicopters to rescue them and looters moved freely - that's where he was, holed up in a street side residential building posting to us. That's who I learned prepping from. That of all the lights and gadgets we have here, your mindset is the first and most important tool. It's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. And he has a whole encyclopedic set of posts here about serious SHTF prepping that you can also learn from, where we all shared information and discussed what worked and what didn't. 

So having provided some of my own educational background in prepping (aside from what I've gone through personally,) this sets up a couple of thorny points on the progression of these Coronavirus threads. One, I understand that my vigilance is sometimes interpreted as negativity, but this is the traditional prepper approach to a worldwide emergency event - you need to assume that the situation will not be mild enough that you can take it easy, it defeats the purpose of planning to just read the good parts of the news and then put off planning because there are optimistic ways to look at the situation. There are always optimistic ways to look at the situation, and there are always ways it can get a lot worse - use the second approach when preparing.

Two, the internet is forever. There are many very memorable news events you can look back through on this site, people talking about planes hitting buildings on 9/11, flooding in Manhattan, the death of Bin Laden, etc. It's all been there for everyone to see since it happened. And now we have this - it's a given that interested folks perusing the site in 2035 will flip back to the threads about that world pandemic that happened long ago, and there will be our posts. So if, on a site renown for prepping, a group of older guys are discussing a pandemic that kills older guys and they keep coming to the conclusion that it's just not that big of a deal, that it's all somebody else's fault and everything's fine and looking up, that's not a good look. There weren't people asked to ration in WWII who declined because it "took their freedoms," or people after 9/11 who were "too concerned" about terrorism - Americans work together to get through the tough time, because you can't sit back and wait for it to get easier.

I absolutely do argue if someone sets out to be abrupt with me, if you stop someone at your local grocery store to provide them with something witty you came up with, you know that they will almost always meet you equally, I am as human here as I am at the grocery store. But you can see that my direction is one of information and rubber-meets-the-road instruction, I'm taking my vitamin D and watching the curve carefully, that's why I told you about it. Take a moment to look away from those external influences that tell you to just take the easy route and don't worry about it, realize that there absolutely is a threat out there that can truly harm you or your family and that bothers me, realize that there's a reason behind the old compliment "may you live in interesting times," because you're absolutely there here and now, don't miss it..


----------



## knucklegary

Epic :bow::bow::bow:


----------



## Greta

StarHalo said:


> The goal is a death rate commensurate with the one that preceded the epidemic. If new cases, which generate the deaths, is not low enough to balance those two death rates, you're still under an epidemic. You can invalidate and even delete the argument as long as we can all agree to take the problem seriously, that's in the next post:



What does this even MEAN?!?!? :shakehead



StarHalo said:


> But you can see that my direction is one of information and rubber-meets-the-road instruction,...



And that would be welcome if the information was accurate... and interpreted accurately. How many more times are you going to quote CNN and make a fool of yourself before you look for other sources? You've been debunked more times than I can even count anymore. And for that reason, no one is even listening to you anymore. So what are you accomplishing?



StarHalo said:


> I'm taking my vitamin D and watching the curve carefully, that's why I told you about it. Take a moment to look away from those external influences that tell you to just take the easy route and don't worry about it, realize that there absolutely is a threat out there that can truly harm you or your family and that bothers me, realize that there's a reason behind the old compliment "may you live in interesting times," because you're absolutely there here and now, don't miss it..



Sadly, this reminds me of a conversation I had with my brother years ago. I won't go into all of the gory details that led up to it but it resulted in him telling me "I'm afraid to die". You see... he was living in fear every single day. Not living his life _AT ALL_! He was too afraid to do anything! My advice to him was "Life's short. Live it!" - That is true for all of us. You say _"there absolutely is a threat out there that can truly harm you or your family".... _I totally agree! A car running a stop light, a drunk driving home from the bar, a hurricane ripping through your neighborhood, a fire in your house, an amoeba crawling up your nose and eating your brain while you're swimming in your favorite lake (yeah, that happens here where I live!), etc. etc. The list goes on. 

You can do your prepper thing. Good for you! But don't try to shove it down everyone else's throat with false information and skewed "statistics". Just because some of us choose to live our lives, doesn't mean we don't take this pandemic seriously. It simply means we choose to LIVE our lives on OUR terms - not yours. You want to be part of this discussion and impart knowledge and information? It is welcome! But make sure it's accurate. And make sure you're not trying to force YOUR agenda on everyone else. More bees with honey.


----------



## StarHalo

Greta said:


> How many more times are you going to quote CNN and make a fool of yourself before you look for other sources? You've been debunked more times than I can even count anymore. And for that reason, no one is even listening to you anymore. So what are you accomplishing?


 
My source for nearly all of the info here is Johns Hopkins, even the recent CNN-branded charts are all Hopkins sourced. I have also posted video from and links to Fox, charts from MSNBC, the Atlantic, the Lancet, I posted AOC dancing, and Russell Brand keeps coming up. And regardless of how many other sources I add or delete, some will still find my approach too negative or too political, because "information is evaluated based not on conformity to common standards of evidence or correspondence to a common understanding of the world, but on whether it supports the tribe's values and goals and is vouchsafed by tribal leaders," and that's Vox. 



Greta said:


> And make sure you're not trying to force YOUR agenda on everyone else. More bees with honey.



I would like to be able to point out the nation's statistical position in the world without being called un-American, that's not an agenda coming from my end, but I know that's how it'd happen in the aforementioned grocery store or bar. Sometimes you have to go through the bees. Like you said, how other people are reacting is on them, no one has to prove anything.


----------



## nbp

Numbers are fun cuz you can spin them any way you want.

Over 10,000 people in nursing homes in the USA have died of COVID19. That is a terrible statistic! (True). Nursing homes are doing a terrible job, they are death pits!

Or:

Prior to the pandemic, over 1000 people per day died of infections in nursing homes in the USA. Only 10,300 have died since Jan 21 of COVID19, which is about 100 per day. (Also true.) Nursing homes are doing a great job! 

Same info, sounds quite different two ways.


----------



## lion504

Good post nbp... Reminds me of the quote “There are three types of lies -- lies, damn lies, and statistics...”


Anyone found any sources of hand sanitizer online, or had any success home brewing?


----------



## bigburly912

Can I just remind everyone to be careful with hand sanitizing all the time. It’s ok to use when you have to but it also kills the good bacteria on your skin which can lead to some nasty warts and skin conditions. You really have to do overdo it to see anything like that. Just a warning. 

Lion, all of our local gas stations keep it in stock so we are particularly lucky in this area


----------



## Poppy

nbp said:


> Numbers are fun cuz you can spin them any way you want.
> 
> Over 10,000 people in nursing homes in the USA have died of COVID19. That is a terrible statistic! (True). Nursing homes are doing a terrible job, they are death pits!
> 
> Or:
> 
> Prior to the pandemic, over 1000 people per day died of infections in nursing homes in the USA. Only 10,300 have died since Jan 21 of COVID19, which is about 100 per day. (Also true.) Nursing homes are doing a great job!
> 
> Same info, sounds quite different two ways.



nbp,
AWESOME POST!!!
Two Thumbs Up!!! :twothumbsup:


----------



## bykfixer

I see this thread as much about conversation as information. A group of weirdos chatting about a pandemic sweeping across the planet. (Yes us flashlight geeks are seen as weirdos by many outside this place), but in a way it makes us all part of a prepper crowd too. Another group of weirdos to the outside world. Tin foil hat crowd if you will. Some more extreme than others. 

Dale Earnhart once said "you can go a long way in making your luck good or bad by preparing or not preparing" when asked why he rarely got collected up in big crashes on super speedways. My wife used to say I only saw the weeds and thorns in the field of flowers. Eventually she learned that one can still enjoy the pretty flowers while not getting scratched by the thorns or having allergic reactions to the weeds by knowing they exist, avoiding them and still enjoying a beautiful scenery. 

This pandemic if you will shows us a glaring reality of just how many people are vulnerable to the flu, the head cold, and the upper respiratory distresses caused by them. It also shows how fragile life can be. 

For some to think people protesting is somehow irresponsible, try looking at it through their perspective. Jobless folks in most cases understand at first that it's part of life. But when the rent is due and they are out of money it takes on a whole different look. Some receive stipends from the government that sent them home. But they do not want to sit around with outstretched hand waiting for a handout. It's like having a box of cereal in front of you and having to be fed only what someone else thinks you should be fed. A baby does not know any different. An adult does. 

It does not help when half the populace is thinking the government lied about this whole thing to steal their freedom while the other believes that at any minute the invisble enemy will sneak in their 800 sq ft apartment and murder baby Jane in some kind of toturous method. Charts and graphs that prove both sides are correct. 

I said a while ago "Americans won't like being corraled for long". News agencies show clips of "irresponsible" people who are just fed up with the whole thing while their neighbor calls the cops on moms who let their kids go play with neighbors kids or arrest some guy for selling fruit out of his dress shop that was forced to close. It's getting to a point where the masses are getting fed up by enlightened people telling them what is best for them. 

All across the US (and I suppose other free nations) suicide hotlines are being inundated and there are some out there trying to sound the alarm that things are going south and quickly. Depression is anger without enthusiasm. So if some folks can let off steam with a march down main street than perhaps that will save lives too. 

What Americans want right now is more "goooooooood morning Vietnaaaaaaam" and less Tokyo Rose. In WW2 Americans saw an attack on their land by a hostile nation. They also saw another hostile nation wiping out nations across the planet. We fought hard for our freedom and made huge sacrifices. Not to thwart some virus that only kills about 1-2% but halt the spread of tyranny that kills everybody who do not obey across the planet. That same Tyranny some governors seemingly impose on their own citizens. And for what? Some plague they were told will kill millions? It hasn't happened and now even the WHO is saying the Sweden way is the best way. 

Sweden did not lock down. They mitigated while enjoying life. Should we believe what the WHO says now?


----------



## Poppy

This whole thread was started by Trailhunter on 2/12/2020 with this question:


> Howse everyone holding up?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk



How about a question from Joey on "Friends"
So... How *you* doin?
__________________________________

I am fortunate in that I have some space to stretch out a bit, with a nice sunny back-yard to go to when the weather is nice.
I live with people that I actually like.
I have food, and can obtain more.
I have TP 

So Life is Good! 

___________________________________

OTOH:
I've been out of work for 7 weeks now, with out a paycheck.
I haven't gotten my stimulus check
I am unsure IF and if-when I will be able to collect unemployment. I am "self employed" as an un-contracted, contract worker, but get paid weekly on a day to day basis. The rules for self employed are new and different, and the system is broken.
When things evolve into the new normal, there is a fairly good chance that the business I have worked for the last three years, will be slow enough that I won't get hired back. That's assuming that it will re-open.
The stocks that I had, took a big hit.
My job is a very social event for me and I really enjoy it. The loss of socialization has been a bit of a blow.

I'm a little depressed.
I have disturbed sleep at night, and nap a little longer during the day.

I try to keep the kids involved in different activities, to reduce their boredom. They too have been separated from the few friends that they have. We are all fortunate that they have each other.

I'm tired of playing cards, but I try to "duo" (its an android version of face-time) with my dad for an hour or so a day playing "knock rummy" to reduce his loneliness while living alone in Florida. 

I am sure that I would feel better if I was more secure in my financial future.

To top it all off, my daughter has been running a low grade fever for 5 of the last 6 weeks. She hopes to get an exploratory CT scan tomorrow, but has to get it pre-certified by Blue Cross - they were closed for the week-end. 

______________________________

Over all I am doing my best to keep my chin up, and enjoy life.
Doing as much gourmet cooking as I can. Sometimes its good, other times just palatable.

I hope you are all doing at least as well as I.
Poppy


----------



## mightysparrow

Hooked on Fenix said:


> I know how things are supposed to work under our form of government. However, when you close the court houses and release the criminals right after they are arrested (including the violent repeat offenders) something's got to give. Either the people will take matters into their own hands, the police will do the same breaking the law to protect the people, or the criminals will have free reign to hurt people. I'm not saying it's right. I'm not saying I'm okay with it. I'm saying it's happening and we should be prepared for it. The police and our government do not have the resources to protect the people so drastic measures are going to be taken to attempt to keep people in line. I think the constitution went out the window when they released criminals while ordering law abiding citizens to stay in their homes and telling some that they couldn't provide for their families while others could.



I understand your concerns. I don't know what goes on in other jurisdictions, so I can only speak about what happens in the major metropolitan area I work in that has a relatively high crime rate. Where I work, people who have been arrested but not convicted of the crime for which they've been arrested are not labeled "criminals." The people being released where I live are those in the lockup waiting for their trials. Arraignments and emergency hearings are still going on as normal. So, criminals aren't being released. Violent, repeat offenders are certainly not being released here. I don't know about other locations.

Some of the people in the lockup have been released due to the Covid-19 emergency, because the law says they can only be held for a certain amount of time, based on the crime alleged. The majority of these people have strict reporting requirements and will incur substantial penalties for violating the terms of their release. In addition, many of these people were released pursuant to intensive supervision. That usually requires them to wear an ankle bracelet that reports where they are at all times, and also has requirements for frequent reporting, drug testing where appropriate, and of course a requirement to report when their court date is finally announced. Under those circumstances, it really is close to impossible to roam around committing violent crimes and get away with doing that.

In the city where my office is located, it is the prisoners and others whose hearings and trials have been postponed whose constitutional rights might have been most stretched for the sake of public safety during the health emergency. I haven't heard of any of the released prisoners going out and committing violent crimes, but of course it could happen. But it is difficult to imagine what else the court system could have done to protect he public from the virus, while at the same time obeying the constitutional requirements to honor the rights of the prisoners as well as the general public. There is no perfect solution to these situations.

As for the police and government not having the resources to protect the public - that is the case all the time, whether there is a public health emergency or there isn't. There are never enough police officers and other resources to deter or punish all crimes. And in a time when there are more and more jobs for the government to do, and fewer dollars with which to do all the government is asked to do, it is unlikely that this situation will change anytime soon. 

With regard to the government orders being issued due to Covid-19, as far as I know the law was settled decades ago. The government has broad discretion to issue orders necessary for public health and safety reasons during an emergency. As you know, public emergencies have been declared in all 50 states. My hope is that the hardships imposed on all of us are minimized by the state and federal governments making decisions based on epidemiological data and the advice of experts in the relevant sciences and medical fields. Making decisions based on political considerations, panic, or frustrations will simply backfire and prolong the economic and personal costs of the pandemic.

I just spent the morning, as I do every Saturday and Sunday morning, driving around town looking intensely for the limited foods I can eat...and it isn't getting any easier. Food insecurity is a reality for the foreseeable future, even for some of us who still have an income. I feel lucky to still have a job, but like everyone else, I want this mess to be over as soon as is possible.


----------



## mightysparrow

Poppy: I'm sorry to hear about your daughter's health concerns and also about your employment situation. I hope the situation improves soon, with regard to both.


----------



## mightysparrow

nbp said:


> Numbers are fun cuz you can spin them any way you want.
> 
> Over 10,000 people in nursing homes in the USA have died of COVID19. That is a terrible statistic! (True). Nursing homes are doing a terrible job, they are death pits!
> 
> Or:
> 
> Prior to the pandemic, over 1000 people per day died of infections in nursing homes in the USA. Only 10,300 have died since Jan 21 of COVID19, which is about 100 per day. (Also true.) Nursing homes are doing a great job!
> 
> Same info, sounds quite different two ways.



Or, we can look at it as one statistic, but looked at in two different contexts. So, there is nothing wrong or dishonest about the statistic in itself - but, like any information, how it is interpreted can differ, depending on the context in which we view it.


----------



## bykfixer

Doing ok here Poppy. Life is about as normal as can be right now. Stress levels are a bit higher than they used to be from being surrounded by outbreaks. But life is always full of unforseens so we try to adapt. 

Before this thing Mrs Fixer and I considered a trip to the grocery store as a date. Running errands were a bonus date. We lived a pretty simple life already. We once lived a life of one single mom raising 3 boys with no support from the X, while the other was paying a big chunk of a paycheck to child support. Our first house had 1 tv that was never plugged in, a bed for all 5 people in the home and lawn furniture for a dining room setup. She had no job, my hours were cut while we raised teenage boys who were pretty rambuncious. That was way more stressful than this corona thing. 

We managed then, and 14 years later we are managing well. Both of us had our hours cut recently yet preparing in advance get by while enjoying each new day as if it could be our last. No time to me miserable. No worries about tomorrow because Heaven knows today brings enough what we like to call "surprise adventures". 

The fact that I am able to post here in this threads means things are ok. I'm fortunate that both the mortgage payment and car payment are current, I now have real thermometers in the medicine cabinet and nutritious food in the cupboard. All five kids are still gainfully employed too. As a bonus I had some group buy M61 modules arrive and being 4L's means the batteries fueling them will run a good long time.


----------



## Greta

Just going to throw this out there:

There's a book titled "Thinking In Bets" by Annie Duke. As a Poker Champion, the author states that life is NOT like a chess game but like a poker game. In most instances in life, we do not have all of the facts. Therefore making decisions are akin to making a bet. You decide based on what you know and bet on what you don't. Some decisions have good outcomes, some have bad. Good decisions don't always have good outcomes. And bad decisions don't always have bad outcomes. But we tend to base further decisions on previous outcomes and that isn't always best either.

An example - you make the bad decision to drive home from the bar drunk one night. You know you're drunk. You know you shouldn't be driving. But you place your bet and get behind the wheel. You win this bet this time - you make it home safely. Bad decision - good outcome. Going forward, you might be inclined to place that bet again. Inevitably though, you will lose. Mostly because the odds are terribly against you with that particular bet.

The point is that we have to make decisions for ourselves every single day that are basically a bet because we do not have all of the information and/or we are drawing from past bets and outcomes. We are all responsible for ourselves and we all have different decisions to make with different amounts of information. I know what my hand looks like, you know what your hand looks like, but neither of us knows what the other's hand looks like. Likely, we'll make different bets. But even if we both make the same bet, we'll for sure both have different outcomes. Not necessarily good or bad, but for sure different. Viva la différence! 

Many people in these threads have shared their personal experiences. I think we all have a few similarities but each of us has something slightly different. All in all... we're getting by one way or another, doing what works for us, placing our bets. Me? I'm doing ok. I do miss the comradery of a rousing game of poker at my local cigar bar. But honestly, other than that, I never did like being around people so this is pretty good! Now I don't have to make excuses for having my groceries delivered - win/win. Financially, we're good. Honey is working full time at Home Depot... but also has two retirements coming in. He's happy... he's down to (as he puts it) "combat weight" and feeling great. Me? We won't discuss that. (Anyone try the Corona Seltzers? Yummy!! .... er... so a friend told me )

So... go place your bets, my friends! But most of all... LIVE!


----------



## ven

mightysparrow said:


> Poppy: I'm sorry to hear about your daughter's health concerns and also about your employment situation. I hope the situation improves soon, with regard to both.




+1 
thoughts and best wishes from over the pond poppy, hope she gets better soon and everything settles down more. :grouphug:


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

It was cold and rainy all day, then at 8:10 - Last night's sunset. Silver Lining


----------



## scout24

THAT is a beautiful photo. On occasion, I miss living in Washington. If I close my eyes, I can feel the warm June air turn cool and taste the scent of the towering pines as I race out towards Mt. Rainier on a Saturday morning on my motorcycle. Like it were yesterday.


----------



## bykfixer

Bravo Greta. 

My bet each day is it might be my last. Live for today but be careful to save a little too because tomorrow may happen. 

I used to work with a guy who plays the game of life like he plays poker. Bluffs a lot and wins a lot. He smiles when you ask how he is doing and says "I'm living so I'm winning".


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

Thanks, scout. It was a fortuitous catch. I should probably add, BTW, the house pictured is directly to the NE. The sun's rays were skimming Western Washington, just below the clouds.


----------



## Dave D

The sun certainly lifts your spirits during lockdown, or so Mr D has just advised me! :thumbsup:






88 degrees today!!


----------



## knucklegary

Byk, i like your ideology.. there is no guarantee we will wake up in the morning. Live each day like it's your last 

... and carry a big stick (-;

Stay well my friend and have a wonderful Sunday!


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

Dave D got it going on! :twothumbs


----------



## SCEMan

Dave D said:


> The sun certainly lifts your spirits during lockdown, or so Mr D has just advised me! :thumbsup:
> 
> 88 degrees today!!



Beautiful setting! The mountains remind me of the drive to Montserrat I took in 2015.


----------



## bykfixer

Pork: the other white meat. 





Pulled out some chops from the stockpile. 
425, cook 10 minutes each side. 
Side of slow cooked baby limas and garlic laced mashed potato's. Yeah we're doing ok.

Off in the distance is the din of hells accountant motorcyclists not staying home. Sunny, 79 who can blame them?


----------



## scout24

Had to pick up groceries today, so I took my Goldwing out. Nicest day we've had this year- 76°, sunny and dry. You'd be suprised what that bike holds... 😁


----------



## bykfixer

This morning I had to drive into the belly of a beast to take an exam. Third highest cases in my state there. Second highest category, congregate setting. I was a bit nervous. Not because of the exam but where it was located. The drive passes through typical morning traffic snarls and if you could the interstate where I live lately there's still cause to leave early. 

This time no log jams. So I arrived early. An hour early. The place was not open yet. I set in my vehicle noticing as employees arrived they were all driving alone, wearing a mask and latex type gloves and entered the building that way. So I stuff some gloves and a new disposable mask in my shirt pocket when it was time and go inside. I fully expected to be checked for fever and asked to fill out a questionaire. I also expected to be required to put on my anti corona gear. 

What I saw when I got in there was 6 or so workers gathered around a coffee pot with none of the gear they wore when they walked in. "Would you like a cup of coffee?" one asked me as in just go up to the community pot and pour yourself a cup. 
I thought "no wonder this is the third highest county and the second highest setting". I declined the coffee. Then when time to enter the room to take a test everybody waiting were all huddled up in a line like there was free beer inside the room. I excused myself to a nearby restroom and let those fools all go in and settle down in a seat. I picked the chair the farthest away from anybody I could. People 10' away side to side but 3 feet in front or behind. I found a spot way over in a corner near an air vent so it would blow away any corona cooties. Cripes man that was unsettling to say the least. 

I passed the test and got the heck out of that place, and that county as fast as my truck would go without getting a citation for reckless driving.


----------



## ven

Its amazing, i know places open in the UK with nothing in place, including PPE. Luckily for weeks now, mask, safety glasses(last couple of). Test before going into the building, then tested 1/2 way through day. Also given a log sheet of areas been, Q code to scan with phone to do online(takes 1 minute of time). Canteen is 1 way, everywhere marked out 2m gaps, everyone follows the procedures. Hands washed entering, going to canteen, coming down from canteen. Food served in disposable trays, plastic knives/forks. Everything disposable, which has been like this for a month maybe.


----------



## Spin

With the slow-down of people the wildlife has prospered. Dolphins appearing in the shallow waters, whales not spooked by passing ships. Wild goats & sheep appearing in cities in europe. Less water & air pollution. More stars can actually be observed in the night skies. In the event of mankind's demise nature will celebrate.


----------



## RedLED

Fixer,

In regard to your last post, why do you think they had the gear on outside but took it off once in? Makes no sense.


----------



## ven

I am not sure of the exacts spin, but here in UK the weather has been nice and sunny. Over the last 5 weeks, maybe longer, I can count the days of rain on one hand. Normally it’s weeks! so I do wonder if the lack of pollution , plays a part with the lack of clouds forming. Don’t know the exact science ,but it’s sure a coincidence .


----------



## bigburly912

RedLED said:


> Fixer,
> 
> In regard to your last post, why do you think they had the gear on outside but took it off once in? Makes no sense.



To get through security checkpoint?
I’ve dealt with a few companies that check their own employees but know they have no bearing over other. It’s weird.


----------



## bykfixer

Red, 
I see people driving alone wearing masks and gloves all of the time now. I have no idea why. 

BB there was no security at the door. Just a greeter pointing folks to the place they were heading to. The greeter had a big old bottle of Purrel if you wanted a squirt on the way in.


----------



## Hooked on Fenix

Went grocery shopping today. Costco has started some more food restrictions. Limits of one on rice, eggs, and chicken, pork, and beef with a total limit of 3 for the meats. More stores are making aisles with one way traffic (Walmart). Some stores are closing down their bathrooms (CVS and my doctor's office did this). Oh by the way, while we are required to wear face coverings in public, a KKK hood is not appropriate to wear in the store: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JYR8ztg_388


----------



## wacbzz

Hooked on Fenix said:


> Oh by the way, while we are required to wear face coverings in public, a KKK hood is not appropriate to wear in the store:



Stupid is as stupid does. Too bad nobody gave him the beat down he deserved...

Not sure what exactly you’re trying to convey with such a post?


----------



## Johnnyh

wacbzz said:


> Stupid is as stupid does. Too bad nobody gave him the beat down he deserved...
> 
> Hmmm...


----------



## scout24

Byk- I have been known to leave the stupid mask on if I'm combining 2 or 3 stops on one errand trip. That way I'm not going through a half dozen gloves, or touching the mask more than I have to. My 2 cents. 

HOF- Stores here starting to expand purchase limits on items as well. Meats being the most recent. Canned veggies at my local grocery have been limit 5 per visit since this started. TP, when it's there, on limit as well. Different stores have different limits on different things. It's wierd... If I may ask, generally speaking, where are you located?


----------



## bykfixer

Thanks for the link HoF. Not that I watched it. Your words were enough to tell me it aint something I wanted to see. Some folks do the darndest things. 
I did scroll down a few videos for a homemade beer batter onion ring video though. 

I don't see limits at our local grocery store. At least the one I go to. Folks generally limit themselves anymore. The limits were on things a few weeks ago. Now shelves stay fairly stocked up. 
Toilet paper and paper towel shelves are still empty on the day we go but we discovered if you go to that one Wed evening after 7pm they have set some out. (Or rather there is still some left) Word on the grapevine is our local Wally World has plenty. 

Ven mentioned the change in weather and could it be related to less pollution. Hard to say. Folks where I lived say "look at all those stars" but until the humidity returns we see lots of stars in places where it's actually dark this time of year every year. But less cars on the road can't be a bad thing. Less jets spewing exhaust can't be a bad thing. Power plants are still running normally while trains and trucks may be more than normal volume. I suppose inside large cities like London, Detroit and Sydney the air is bound to be a lot cleaner.

Scout, I keep a mask on my person for times when my allergies flare up and my body does things that would start a stampede like sneeze fit or hacking/coughing spell. Worst allergy issues in years this year. And I keep a small pump bottle of hydrogen peroxide with me so if I have to touch strange surfaces a spritz or two on said surface disinfects it. It has to be refilled often but fits in my shirt pocket. I also keep a few napkins in my wallet pocket these days to have a disposable barrier between my hands and door handles. Say at a gas station I want a soda. Spritz the fridge door handle, grab with napkin, spritz said soda bottle, wipe with napkin, push door open with my elbow when leaving, toss napkin in a trash can on the way out. Enjoy beverage. So far so good. 
I learned the napkin trick from eccentric billionaire germophobe Howard Hughes.






Computer screen cleaner bottle with your favorite disinfectant.


----------



## Hooked on Fenix

San Diego county, CA. Specifically Ramona, CA (ground zero of the two largest wildfires in CA history, the Cedar and Witch Creek fires).


----------



## RedLED

wacbzz said:


> Stupid is as stupid does. Too bad nobody gave him the beat down he deserved...
> 
> Not sure what exactly you’re trying to convey with such a post?


wacbzz,

I'm sure he was just joking.


----------



## RedLED

scout24 said:


> Byk- I have been known to leave the stupid mask on if I'm combining 2 or 3 stops on one errand trip. That way I'm not going through a half dozen gloves, or touching the mask more than I have to. My 2 cents.
> 
> HOF- Stores here starting to expand purchase limits on items as well. Meats being the most recent. Canned veggies at my local grocery have been limit 5 per visit since this started. TP, when it's there, on limit as well. Different stores have different limits on different things. It's wierd... If I may ask, generally speaking, where are you located?


Scout,

I do the same thing with my mask and gloves as I have to go to several stores in order to get everything I want.


----------



## Poppy

Chauncey,
That is one beautiful picture!

Could be turned into a Thomas Kinkade puzzle.


----------



## knucklegary

Are you aware of Pacific Coast Knights of KKK they use to be headquartered in San Diego, but don't think in Ramona, was in Redlands

On a better note.. an albino killer whale was sighted in Monterey Bay.. About 1yr old he is nicknamed Casper 
..and he was not wearing a mask 🐳


----------



## lion504

Things we still don't know about COVID-19:

(1) Whether ventilators make the patient better or worse...
(2) Whether hydroxychloroquine works (how many 10-14 day periods do we need for a scientific outcome???)...
(3) Whether remdesivir works...
(4) Whether a vaccination will ever be available...
(5) Whether summer will have any impact on spread...

probably other stuff too...


----------



## bykfixer

6) whether nicotine works
7) whether intrevenius doses of the active ingredient for pepcid as works. 
8) whether vitamin c helps
9) whether salt air kills the virus
And probably more……


----------



## bigburly912

10) are people eating all this danged toilet paper they are hoarding?


----------



## Hooked on Fenix

bigburly912 said:


> 10) are people eating all this danged toilet paper they are hoarding?



No, they thought if they wiped more, the sh*t would stop hitting the fan.


----------



## lion504




----------



## Dave D

ven said:


> I am not sure of the exacts spin, but here in UK the weather has been nice and sunny. Over the last 5 weeks, maybe longer, I can count the days of rain on one hand. Normally it’s weeks! so I do wonder if the lack of pollution , plays a part with the lack of clouds forming. Don’t know the exact science ,but it’s sure a coincidence .



Unfortunately we got it instead, about 6 weeks of cloud and rain down here in Spain, on the plus side it probably helped the population cope better with the lockdown here!

It was unfortunate that the sun came out in the UK during the lockdown, the Brits see it so rarely that, for a proportion of them, it was like moths to a flame!!


----------



## ven

Dave D said:


> Unfortunately we got it instead, about 6 weeks of cloud and rain down here in Spain, on the plus side it probably helped the population cope better with the lockdown here!
> 
> It was unfortunate that the sun came out in the UK during the lockdown, the Brits see it so rarely that, for a proportion of them, it was like moths to a flame!!




Very true Dave, luckily we have a garden(all be it small). So it was not the end of the world, BBQ fired up and chill time in fresh air. It must be really difficult living in a tower block as many do or flats. Certainly a test of inner strength (mind). 

Looks fantastic where you are, stay safe Dave and keep living the dream!


----------



## bykfixer

knucklegary said:


> an albino killer whale was sighted in Monterey Bay.. About 1yr old he is nicknamed Casper
> ..and he was not wearing a mask 



Shhhh!! Don't tell your governor.

Mine says it's likely parts of our state can open next week (5/14). That means measured changes on how the things that reopen will proceed. Our home will stayed hunkered down a bit longer. Mainly because it is still spreading in my community and surrounding ones. Our town has lots and lots of visitors so until the spread quits doubling every week or so we'll just continue to avoid things we avoid now. I don't need any trophies right now, guitar strings.


----------



## bigburly912

I hear those white whales have been known to cause cancer in some private lab testing in California


----------



## lion504

Apple, Google COVID-19 Contact Tracing Apps: a classic case of "we must do something (with tech, because we are tech companies); this is something, therefore we must do it."

Questionable efficacy.

"Assume you take the app out grocery shopping with you and it subsequently alerts you of a contact. What should you do? It's not accurate enough for you to quarantine yourself for two weeks. And without ubiquitous, cheap, fast, and accurate testing, you can't confirm the app's diagnosis. So the alert is useless.

Similarly, assume you take the app out grocery shopping and it doesn't alert you of any contact. Are you in the clear? No, you're not. You actually have no idea if you've been infected."


----------



## bykfixer

I thought the contact tracing was for when you test positive it can back trace places you were over an X period of days. 

I leave my phone at home when running errands etc, so if the data only shows where my phone was……


This morning I took Mrs Fixer to a facility for a procedure and was met with proper precautions. Mask required to get in, temperature check and a short list of questions. Only those with an appointment could go past the greeter. Nobody else, including me because I'm not having anything done there. I'm ok with that. Unlike the college campus I was at yesterday where it was all lah-tee-dah, this place was truely pro. 

If you did not have a mask they'd provide one at no cost. Foam type hand sanitizer and tissue dispensors were stationed about 25 feet apart on both sides of the hallway leading to the elevator where I waved a "see ya in a little while" to Mrs Fixer. The thing I noticed was outside in the fresh air nobody wore a mask and gloves but deployed them before entering indoors where the virus would most likely live.


----------



## KITROBASKIN

From:
https://www.goodrx.com/blog/how-does-the-coronavirus-covid-19-affect-kids-children/
''Children — younger children especially — get many normal viral infections in childhood. Scientists think that this repeated viral exposure prepares the child’s immune system for SARS‐CoV‐2. This means that they are better armed to fight it when they do encounter it.
Another theory is that because their immune system is still “learning,” it is less likely to react aggressively to the coronavirus — something called a cytokine storm, which is associated with many adult deaths from COVID-19. 
Scientists also wonder whether an enzyme called angiotensin‐converting enzyme (ACE) might have something to do with it. The coronavirus, SARS‐CoV‐2, is thought to latch on to this enzyme in the lungs. This enzyme isn’t very active in childhood, so this might explain why the virus doesn’t cause a lot of damage here."


----------



## bykfixer

So now there's a model saying 20k new cases a day on June 1 and 3k deaths a day if we lift lockdowns in the US. 
If you look at yesterdays world-o-meter for yesterday, we are already pretty close to there with lock downs. 

Meanwhile Swedens numbers are about 5% what models predicted if they kept going like normal with caution reccomended. Beaches were closed back down in a Florida city because people wouldn't wear masks………

A school in Montana(?) reopened today. A town of about 800 people with less than 100 students elected to let kids go back for the 2-1/2 weeks remaining. Meanwhile another state extended their lockdown until July 6th. Not NY, NJ or anybody in the top 5 of cases/deaths.

European countries are reopening including soccer games in some cases. This thing aint over by far but a poll in the US shows only 36% favor continued lock downs. Meanwhile New Zealand had 0 new cases for the second day in a row. 

Just some random news about the pandemic.


----------



## Greta

And now we're finding out the information being thrown around as credible from the Johns Hopkins University is: 

*"... *[FONT=&quot]*is based on faulty assumptions and is in no way representative of any federal government projections and, as Johns Hopkins stated, should not be taken as a forecast,"*

Source.

Sorry SH [/FONT]:shrug:


----------



## StarHalo

Greta said:


> *"... **is based on faulty assumptions and is in no way representative of any federal government projections and, as Johns Hopkins stated, should not be taken as a forecast,"*
> 
> Sorry SH :shrug:



The only posts I've made above that have attempted a forecast or used forecast data [excepting the UK/France forecasts of relative total population cases over a year, which is so distant that there's still no way to know if it's accurate,] is the concept that we must respond proactively, and that failing to do that we would not experience the same flattened curve that other first world nations who responded nationally did. The idea of being proactive has only recently been acknowledged, the idea of a national response is still not accepted here. 

No forecast data from any agency has been used in any form of national response or reaction; you could draw up expansive and exhaustive worst-case or best-case scenario analyses and it would make no difference, the information is not being acted on or taken into consideration.

You seem terribly concerned about what sources I use to post all the information that has so far turned out to be correct, I would gladly extend an invitation to you to expound on what the trusted and correct sources are.


----------



## bykfixer

Right now it's all just educated guesses Star. Guesses based on what is known at a given time. History will prove what we did right and what we did wrong. History is full of bad ideas. Ideas that seemed like the right thing to do at the time. Wooden wheels, leeches for pnuemonia, cars without head lights, road without lane stripes, bicycles without brakes, wool clothing in summer, lead paint, wooden teeth, asbestos, to name a few. We know from history those weren't such a great idea. 

One camp says dam the torpedos, open er up again. 
The other camp says hunker down until this thing is over. 

Graphs and charts and educated guesses are providing fodder for both camps. 

It kinda boils down to some like Pepsi, some prefer Coke. Somewhere in the center is RC cola.


----------



## lion504

Seems like there are two choices:

- Open up now (with accompanying pain, suffering, and death - because of more COVID-19)
- Open up later (with accompanying pain, suffering, and death - because of increased poverty)

Which is worse? Nobody knows for sure, because there are no trusted and correct sources that can predict accurately. Only option is to pick one and try to make corrections as quickly as possible.

EDIT: I'm generally in favor of opening up sooner, but the supporting "freedom!" argument, while emotionally appealing, is not that logical, IMHO. Civilization is essentially about giving up freedoms.


----------



## Greta

StarHalo said:


> The only posts I've made above that have attempted a forecast or used forecast data [excepting the UK/France forecasts of relative total population cases over a year, which is so distant that there's still no way to know if it's accurate,] is the concept that we must respond proactively, and that failing to do that we would not experience the same flattened curve that other first world nations who responded nationally did. The idea of being proactive has only recently been acknowledged, the idea of a national response is still not accepted here.



:sigh: From this post of yours - _"My source for nearly all of the info here is Johns Hopkins, even the recent CNN-branded charts are all Hopkins sourced."_



StarHalo said:


> No forecast data from any agency has been used in any form of national response or reaction; you could draw up expansive and exhaustive worst-case or best-case scenario analyses and it would make no difference, the information is not being acted on or taken into consideration.



It is taken into consideration by people like you who feel the need to share it as gospel. And the media shares it as gospel. These actions are dangerous and sow unnecessary discord and panic. Think about the old tale of Chicken Little - everyone running around saying the sky is falling. Turned out to be nothing more than an acorn. And poor Goosey Loosey, and Henny Penny and Turkey Lurkey all got eaten up by Foxey Loxey in a deep garden hole. We can learn a lot from folktales. 



StarHalo said:


> You seem terribly concerned about what sources I use to post all the information that has so far turned out to be correct, I would gladly extend an invitation to you to expound on what the trusted and correct sources are.



Your information has NOT turned out to be correct. That has been shown many times by other members. The trusted and correct sources are the ones that cannot and are not consistently debunked. YOU figure that out.


----------



## StarHalo

Greta said:


> :sigh: From this post of yours - _"My source for nearly all of the info here is Johns Hopkins, even the recent CNN-branded charts are all Hopkins sourced."_



Correct, the data on _current conditions_ is from Johns Hopkins. I have not provided any forecast data or prognosticated beyond the need to flatten the curve and what would happen otherwise.



Greta said:


> It is taken into consideration by people like you who feel the need to share it as gospel. And the media shares it as gospel. These actions are dangerous and sow unnecessary discord and panic. Think about the old tale of Chicken Little - everyone running around saying the sky is falling. Turned out to be nothing more than an acorn. And poor Goosey Loosey, and Henny Penny and Turkey Lurkey all got eaten up by Foxey Loxey in a deep garden hole. We can learn a lot from folktales.



This is the Tortoise and the Hare, and we have become very relaxed where we think we are well ahead. The reason I am advocating for a national response and the need for a more health-centric approach is because this is what has worked in other countries, I did not make it up or learn it from one media source or personality, it's not a political manifesto or Devil's Advocate response, I simply believe we should attempt to do what has already proven successful.



Greta said:


> Your information has NOT turned out to be correct. That has been shown many times by other members.


 
The other members were very disgruntled with me for being too negative in proposing that there would be a price to be paid for not preparing early, which has proven true, and very disconcerted with what was interpreted as some sort of radical-liberal or anti-American sentiment in positing that if the US did not respond as a whole, it would fall behind other countries, which is where we are. 



Greta said:


> The trusted and correct sources are the ones that cannot and are not consistently debunked. YOU figure that out.



That sounds like a good learning exercise for all involved. *I would like anyone here who would be interested in sharing their opinion to tell me what is a correct news source that cannot/is not consistently debunked. *I'd like to hear what others think.


----------



## turbodog

Have been away for a few days, just caught up.

1. Don't know who posted it, but it think it is important to recognize that most (good) charts show infections on a log scale. This is good and bad. Where it's bad is when the scale gets close to flat. Because it's log-scaled you can still have significant growth and not see it very clearly.

2. You can take confirmed cases minus resolved cases and that will give active cases. BTW, this number is on worldometer already. However, in almost every state/country/etc, due to the rapid growth of the virus, you can practically ignore the resolved cases. Yes, resolved keeps growing, but new grows faster.

3. I'm in MS, way down south. We are seeing a daily increase of about 3-4% for 10 days now. That's great, and I applaud everyone that helped it get that low. BTW, we were at 20%, then 15%, then 10%, and so on. However, exponential growth, even at 1%, is still exponential. At 4%, which we will not maintain after we reopen (in 2 days), the virus covers the state by Sep 30.

4. I've been recording state and country numbers since this started. If you plot them (cases per million people) you get a nice curve. It's interesting to see that everyone is moving up the curve. Sweden is where the USA was 2 weeks ago. We are where Faeroe Islands were 2 weeks ago. Our relative ranking has moved from 18th to 14th during this time.

5. For retail checkout registers/etc, where you don't have or want to use gloves, I recommend these. Have been using them for weeks now. Get a few strange (and envious) looks.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00HFQQO02/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## scout24

SH- We just spent seven weeks locked down nationally to "flatten the curve." How can you POSSIBLY say there has been no coordinated national response? Please. Do tell...

And perhaps explain to me how an ongoing response in NYC, the epicenter of this, is remotely apropos in my county of +/- 51,000 people where we have had 109 cases and 5 deaths. I'm 120 miles from downtown Manhattan, btw.


----------



## Poppy

lion504 said:


> Seems like there are two choices:
> 
> - Open up now (with accompanying pain, suffering, and death - because of more COVID-19)
> - Open up later (with accompanying pain, suffering, and death - because of increased poverty)
> 
> Which is worse? Nobody knows for sure, because there are no trusted and correct sources that can predict accurately. Only option is to pick one and try to make corrections as quickly as possible.
> 
> <SNIP>.


Lion,
Well put. 

Your mention of make corrections as quickly as possible actually presents the third option... 
Open somewhat in the middle... some now, and if it goes well enough, a little more, and then more.
Make corrections, IE pull back a bit if the curve jumps too quickly, that the hospitals will be over-burdened, or if an actual TREATMENT appears to be on the horizon.
OTOH if a week later the curve has not bent upwards to much, then opening a little more quickly, or as quickly as planned may be in order.

IMO surveys for the most part, most surveys, can be used when you run out or toilet paper.

How one responds to the survey... stay locked down or open up?

Financial:
If a person is not eligible for unemployment and is now out of work, he probably wants to OPEN up.
If unemployment doesn't compare to his previous salary, he may be in favor of opening up.

If a person owns a small clothing store for example. Non-essential... He/she may have his/her life savings in that store. Each year new inventory must be purchased, months in advance. Old/current stock must be sold, or taken as a loss. They can't sell current stock! 
Their lives are being CRUSHED! 

Imagine a guy who owns a "bait and tackle shop" and can't open. Still has to pay rent though. Can he collect unemployment? Maybe, maybe not. Does he still have his personal expenses? Like home mortgage, cable TV, phone, insurance (health, liability, auto, life)?

Each of the above probably want to OPEN up, because financially they are being crushed.

OTOH:
Those who have not been financially impacted may have a different opinion.

Some experts will say: When being attacked don't scream "help" scream "FIRE ... FIRE" 
Help may require intervention and danger in being involved. FIRE however moves, and may come and encompass one. Therefore more people will respond to FIRE because it may come and get them. They want to see where it is.

So... those who are older and retired, may not be financially impacted and may not care if it OPENs up, except that the virus may come and get them, therefore they may prefer that it stays closed.

Others who are considered essential, and have to work, depending upon whether their lives are in danger.. IE first line workers, may prefer it to be locked down.
Those whose jobs are considered essential, and whose lives are not in danger, but can continue with their life as it was, may not care one way or the other.

CARE FOR SELF OR RISK TO OTHERS
Certainly it is understandable, if one is at risk individual, to want to limit the transmission as much as possible, which means keeping things locked down.

Again, if one has a family member who is at risk, one may be particularly inclined to "lock down" and stay that way.

Then one might have to consider, how much is he willing to lose of his comfortable life style to stay locked down and save some lives of people he doesn't know. Will he give up his life savings, lose his house, live in his car, or maybe a tent under a bridge? 

POPULATION DENSITY and Actual Risk to ONESELF

There are states, or areas of states where there are only 50 people in a square mile. 

In 1976, I broke down in Kennebec, SD 


> Kennebec is a town in and county seat of Lyman County, South Dakota, United States. The population was 240 at the 2010 census Wikipedia


I was stuck there for three days waiting for a rear axle bearing to come in and to have it swapped out.
I asked the young mechanic what he did for entertainment. He said we drink beer and shoot rabbits. On weekends we go to town. 
I said to town!? There is one building. It is the hardware store, post office, and grocery store all in one. There is a movie theater that shows it's one movie on Friday night.
"Oh", he said, "we go to Sioux Falls" to party.
I said.. "That's a hundred miles away!"
"Yeah, Old man Jones pulls his squad car off the road about 6 PM and so it only takes about an hour to get there."

________________

If the risk is LOW, how willing are you to give up your store, your livelihood? Your ability to go fishing or play in the park? BBQ with friends? 

If the risk is still high, how much risk are you willing to take? For yourself and loved ones? 

_________________________
FOR THE GOVERNORS

Overall it is a judgement call, and based on the best available information, taking into consideration, how much will the populace tolerate, and how best to last this thing out, without killing the economy, both locally and nationally.

Personally I am willing to take a financial hit to save many lives, and to offer some (although not guaranteed) protection to my father, and my immediate family. I am not going to live in a tent under a bridge, nor would I go that far if I was in a position that I was living pay check to pay check. I believe that eventually 80% of us will be exposed, maybe more. I'm hoping that it doesn't occur until there is a proven, effective treatment for it.

_________________________________

One more note:
Not long ago, there was a huge group of people (reportedly 2000) who got together, shoulder to shoulder, front to back, like cattle packed in a corral, being made ready to go to slaughter. Most wore masks, many did not. They were warned by their leaders to behave responsibly, and they did not. IMO the national guard should have been brought in, corraled them, and marched them to a holding pen for two weeks, (like an indoor stadium) and then only released those without a fever.

They then could be tested as part of an experiment to see how many, what percentage contracted, and developed antibodies, to covid 19. Come to think of it they should have tested them before putting them into the stadium, and then again upon release. It would yield valuable information regarding opening up.


Greta or any other mod,
If I over stepped, and you want to delete my.. One more note: I understand that I may have overstepped the rules.
I hope that you leave it, but it is your call.
Poppy


----------



## StarHalo

scout24 said:


> SH- We just spent seven weeks locked down nationally to "flatten the curve." How can you POSSIBLY say there has been no coordinated national response? Please. Do tell...



If the approach that you have taken has failed so completely to the degree that you're now a statistical outlier, that should be an indication to change course. Not only has that indication has not been recognized, but you're not even acknowledging that our response was anything-goes states-only. You don't understand what I'm saying about a solution because you don't accept that there is a problem.


----------



## scout24

We here are not the stastistical outlier. Densely populated areas by your verbiage are the outliers. There are more areas in more states with lower population densities with few cases then there are people living in "hard hit areas." A directed response appropriate in one area is not necessarily appropriate in another. I find it offensive that you assert that I don't accept there is a problem. Go re-read my posts. My contention is, and has been, the first half of this post. Eyes on the ground in a given area have a much better understanding of what's happening and what's needed in a town, county, or state. One of the reasons we have 50 governors, 535 voices in DC, and not one...
What I have trouble accepting is your one-size-fits-all chicken little approach to what should be a discussion, and not accepting other views... And the inability (lack of desire?) to answer questions. My last post, I asked one question. Please read your response to it.


----------



## StarHalo

scout24 said:


> We here are not the stastistical outlier.



This chart will be in your grandchildren's history books, we will not be there to chide them for not interpreting it more positively.


----------



## scout24

Do we need to delve into per capita again? Cases per 100,000? There's 330 million people here in the US... Roughly 46 million in Spain. I trust your multiplication skills are up to snuff.

Saw this today: It sums up a lot. It's ok to sit in the middle of this.


----------



## nbp

The good thing is that even if an area “opens up” there is no one forcing any individual or family who is high risk to go to parks, movie theaters, restaurants or other places with many people. Any one who wishes may continue to live a Safer At Home lifestyle as long as they wish. 

Furthermore, it seems to me that many High Risk people themselves are doing little to isolate themselves. I was doing some work today for a couple in their 70s, and he has had a number of health problems in the past. While I was working she went out to run errands, had to go to Costo, Home Depot and the grocery store. He insisted on standing next to me and chatting for half an hour. It’s hard to stay committed to this Safer at Home order and inconvenience oneself when the very people we are doing it to protect are not interested in protecting themselves. I suspect this behavior is not even unusual. One of my grandmas has been very diligent about self isolation. My grandpa on the other hand laughed at me when I wore a mask into his house when I came to cut down some shrubs in his front yard. 

Something I have learned over the years is that you cannot be more worried about other people’s lives than they are about their own life. I mean, you can, but it’s pointless and frustrating.


----------



## Poppy

StarHalo said:


> This chart will be in your grandchildren's history books, we will not be there to chide them for not interpreting it more positively.


Yeah... and a number of charts as well.

And, I AM here, and THEY, my grand-children understand mathematics.

I help them understand the information at hand. I've already told them the story of statistics, and the story of the American and the Russian great horse race.

Its been estimated that 80% of the world's populace will be exposed to corovid 19.

We are doing more testing than any other country in the world.

It stands to reason that if we TEST more, we will CONFIRM more, than any other country in the world, considering that we have a greater population than most countries in the world.

I haven't looked but I am sure that there is a chart stating that we have the most confirmed resolved cases in the world.
New York state, last time I checked did 7,500 random blood tests looking for antibodies and found that 30% of NYC had corona antibodies. They are hopefully immune. Most had not been previously corona tested, so the stat that we have a high rate of confirmed cases, would be interpreted that we have a high rate of immune populace.

Our rate of immunity is increasing!

Thanks for posting that otherwise meaningless graph.


----------



## turbodog

Poppy said:


> ...
> We are doing more testing than any other country in the world.
> ...



On gross numbers, yes. On rate, that's a hard no.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

Sort by tests/million.

I will note that comparing the US to other countries is hard. There are not many with similar population numbers, income/socioeconomic level, rural/urban ratio, etc. Might be easier to compare individual states to other countries, like NY to Canada or something.

In any case, the numbers continue to tick upward.


----------



## bykfixer

The graph my kids and grand kids will remember is how much they're paying in taxes for interest acrued by us for a virus that wipes out frail and sick people while leaving at least 98% of the rest of us waiting breathlessly for the "enlightened" crowd to write checks for crumbs while they themselves continue to brain wash a few willing folks who cannot accept their views are nothing more than a small blip on the radar of public opinion that is amplified via megaphone by a so-called free press bent on destroying the system that allows them to spew their demogogary.


----------



## idleprocess

bykfixer said:


> The graph my kids and grand kids will remember is how much they're paying in taxes for interest acrued by us [...]



It's _*days* late and *dollars* short_ to be worrying about deficit spending, such has it become the norm for generations now in good times and bad.


----------



## Poppy

turbodog said:


> On gross numbers, yes. On rate, that's a hard no.
> 
> https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries
> 
> Sort by tests/million.
> 
> I will note that comparing the US to other countries is hard. There are not many with similar population numbers, income/socioeconomic level, rural/urban ratio, etc. Might be easier to compare individual states to other countries, like NY to Canada or something.
> 
> In any case, the numbers continue to tick upward.


Next to impossible, to compare the US to other countries, and NYC metro area ( a few square miles) has a similar population to the entire country of Canada! 

I think the US did about 20 million tests, about one third of the population of Italy?

Your posts are typically VERY thoughtful and insightful, but I am missing the point of your post.
Please explain more fully.
Poppy


----------



## RedLED

Fixer, 

I agree, and feel sorry for the young people, who down the road, will have to deal with a generation of wealth competly wiped out in a few short weeks.


----------



## StarHalo

As I mentioned earlier, if anger fixed anything, everything would have been fixed by now. There shouldn't be this much indignation when my point of view clearly won't be a part of immediate history. The White House Coronavirus task force is being closed, everything is opening, the thing that I have been arguing for is not going to come to pass. We are going to see the what happens with the full on states-only business-first approach that won't have even the implication of any form of national organization or protection, regardless of the status of any curve. I lost the argument! You're going to get what you wanted! Isn't that wonderful?


----------



## Greta

bykfixer said:


> The graph my kids and grand kids will remember is how much they're paying in taxes for interest acrued by us for a virus that wipes out frail and sick people while leaving at least 98% of the rest of us waiting breathlessly for the "enlightened" crowd to write checks for crumbs while they themselves continue to brain wash a few willing folks who cannot accept their views are nothing more than a small blip on the radar of public opinion that is amplified via megaphone by a so-called free press bent on destroying the system that allows them to spew their demogogary.



Easy there, big fella ... Let's stay away from this kind of stuff. I like your other posts better and look forward them.


----------



## bykfixer

Gotcha. 

Just letting off a little steam mam. I actually returned to erase much of it. 
Too late for that I suppose.

Homie seems to think that the US will be going back to normal at midnight Tuesday. A few places run by local leaders (as per the US Constitution dictates) are making some questionable decisions, but the vast majority are taking very measured approaches with an eye on new cases.

https://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=2054&artikel=7463561
Even WHO says relax some. (if you still believe those folks)


----------



## Poppy

SH,
I found you last post interesting. Instead of giving a rational, and intelligent response to the questions put to you, or explanations or your position, you did not respond, instead, you positioned yourself into a "I told you so" position. In the future, with things opening up more, in some places a little at a time, and others more, there will be instances where things will get worse. I believe that is built into the understanding and a calculated risk. YOU have put yourself into a position such that you can say, each time something is reported as being worse, you can say... "I TOLD YOU SO!" 

If I was a mod, and you pulled that crap, I'd block you.

These mods are more lenient than I. 

Let's see how this plays out.


----------



## StarHalo

Poppy said:


> Instead of giving a rational, and intelligent response to the questions put to you, or explanations or your position



Again for those who missed it: Life over profit. See what the economy can withstand rather than seeing what our elders can withstand. If we have more resources than anyone else, then our numbers should be exceptionally good; you should not have to put effort into interpreting the numbers so that a mediocre result is returned. 

I don't do "I told you so," anyone who's honest will tell you part of the joy of adulthood is getting wedged into situations where any possible reaction will be wrong. I'm already admitting I'm wrong.

I don't advocate blocking speech, but we do agree on seeing how this plays out.


----------



## lion504

scout24 said:


> Saw this today: It sums up a lot. It's ok to sit in the middle of this.



Great post, thanks for sharing the Venn diagram. I’m in the middle too.

...

Contrasting “life” and “the economy” is unreasonable. The economy is life sustaining, life enabling.


----------



## bigburly912

StarHalo said:


> I don't do "I told you so,".



One of your first posts in this thread says that “we are both under record, we will see who is right” paraphrased but exactly to the point of I can’t wait to be able to say I told you so.


----------



## Poppy

StarHalo said:


> I don't do "I told you so,"
> 
> I don't advocate blocking speech, but we do agree on seeing how this plays out.


From your last post it looks like you are DONE!
:thumbsup:

Some/ very few, will miss your posts, not me.

I don't believe for a moment that you will not continue to point out any increase in virus infections.
As things opens up, they are expected!
SO.. yeah, let's see how this plays out. Let's see if you post "I told you so" type posts.


----------



## knucklegary

SH, I can hear your Amz Echo playing "Taps"


----------



## archimedes

lion504 said:


> .... Contrasting “life” and “the economy” is unreasonable. The economy is life sustaining, life enabling.



All I know, is that hospitals are getting massively crushed financially by the "lockdowns" ... huge layoffs, all across the country, can't be good for long term health outcomes.


----------



## StarHalo

bigburly912 said:


> One of your first posts in this thread says that “we are both under record, we will see who is right” paraphrased but exactly to the point of I can’t wait to be able to say I told you so.



And we'll both be waiting, because I don't do I told you so. I believe in being conscious of how future readers will read our conversations (that "internet is forever" bit,) you are in no way obligated to that idea. 



Poppy said:


> From your last post it looks like you are DONE!



Being chatting online since 2400 baud, reports of my death are greatly exaggerated. We are respectfully agreeing to see the outcome of this, why struggle?


----------



## Tejasandre

lion504 said:


> Great post, thanks for sharing the Venn diagram. I’m in the middle too.
> 
> ...
> 
> Contrasting “life” and “the economy” is unreasonable. The economy is life sustaining, life enabling.



Only the living can sustain the economy.


----------



## Johnnyh

The USA was built on a system of free enterprise. Capitalism built the great place it is today and sustains us. I see no way we can NOT open up, that’s just not possible. Lockdowns and big-government handouts might be a short term relief but are just not sustainable in a democratic free enterprise system. As we move back toward a free and open society, personal responsibility will be the key to rebuilding, The Government cannot save us, be we can save ourselves. Be safe!


----------



## Poppy

archimedes said:


> All I know, is that hospitals are getting massively crushed financially by the "lockdowns" ... huge layoffs, all across the country, can't be good for long term health outcomes.


I can't speak to that, but I've been following NY Gov. Cuomo, one of the first businesses lifted from the shut-down or Pause as he calls it, is allowing the small hospitals to perform elective surgery, in areas that they can maintain a 70% or less bed use capacity. I expect, that will be a pattern across the country.

Overall, this will be a learning experience, and an awakening experience. Hopefully it will hit the 20-40 y/o generation and be a reminder for the 60-90 generation. We need to build, and buy American. Perhaps one of the most memorable statements I remember was one made by Admiral Yamamoto of Japan in the movie "Tora! Tora! Tora!" It depicted the bombing or US Pearl Harbor. "I am afraid that we have awakened a sleeping giant!" He was educated here in the US and was aware of our manufacturing capabilities.

Personally I was stunned to learn that many of our drugs are manufactured in China.

I've expressed my concerns over the years that so many of our machine shops have closed. 

IMO we need to become independent.


----------



## turbodog

Poppy said:


> I can't speak to that, but I've been following NY Gov. Cuomo, one of the first businesses lifted from the shut-down or Pause as he calls it, is allowing the small hospitals to perform elective surgery, in areas that they can maintain a 70% or less bed use capacity. I expect, that will be a pattern across the country.
> 
> Overall, this will be a learning experience, and an awakening experience. Hopefully it will hit the 20-40 y/o generation and be a reminder for the 60-90 generation. We need to build, and buy American. Perhaps one of the most memorable statements I remember was one made by Admiral Yamamoto of Japan in the movie "Tora! Tora! Tora!" It depicted the bombing or US Pearl Harbor. "I am afraid that we have awakened a sleeping giant!" He was educated here in the US and was aware of our manufacturing capabilities.
> 
> Personally I was stunned to learn that many of our drugs are manufactured in China.
> 
> I've expressed my concerns over the years that so many of our machine shops have closed.
> 
> IMO we need to become independent.



Economic intertwining is a topic for another day. We are not going back to mfg. Nobody wants to work at the sock factory anymore, and you would not want to pay the prices for socks if they did.


----------



## turbodog

Poppy said:


> Next to impossible, to compare the US to other countries, and NYC metro area ( a few square miles) has a similar population to the entire country of Canada!
> 
> I think the US did about 20 million tests, about one third of the population of Italy?
> 
> Your posts are typically VERY thoughtful and insightful, but I am missing the point of your post.
> Please explain more fully.
> Poppy



It's to stop using gross numbers at all. Ratios and rates are the only thing that allow _any_ sort of reasonable comparison between states, communities, countries, etc.

We will nitpick beam patterns, color temp, and reflector design to death but we are trying to talk intelligently about a complex topic using gross numbers?

Look at the thoughtful link I provided. The US has done ~8 million test to date. We are barely middle of the pack in testing RATE.


----------



## turbodog

StarHalo said:


> ... everything is opening, the thing that I have been arguing for is not going to come to pass. We are going to see the what happens with the full on states-only business-first approach ...



I disagree. People, even those here in MS, are really starting to make changes in their daily lives. Yes, some will act stupidly when the restrictions are lifted, but those folks acted poorly regardless.

Fact: we cannot leave the lockdown in place for long enough to get a vaccine, assuming one is coming. Clearly, work has to resume at some point. It's all a big crap sandwich... just a question of which end you want to take a bite from.


----------



## nbp

“Everything is opening up”. ??? That’s some hyperbole. 

Anyways, Yes, it is very easy to tell others to “just follow the rules” (read: stay home) when you don’t have to abide by the same rules (read: essential worker with steady income). The guy worried about the mortgage and food on the table and keeping the internet paid for so his kids can take their online school classes while his business dissolves in front of him probably has a different view of how easy or difficult it is to “follow the rules”.


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## Dave D

Let's not forget folks that we all come from different backgrounds, different life experiences and different circumstances which influence us in how we form our opinions. 

Now we all know about opinions, they are like a$$holes, we've all got one!

Personally I don't like statistics, coming from a background of having dealt with violent deaths over many years, I've seen the families affected and torn apart by their loss. So for me the real numbers of deaths is multiplied in the number of others that are truly affected by each individual loss. Statistics are easier to ignore.

It's also far too early for statistics to show how individual countries have done to protect either their population and/or their economy because all of the different countries are at different stages in the pandemic. When this is all over will be the time to analyse the data to show the best course of action to fight similar future threats.

It will also be of benefit to humanity, as a whole, if different countries take different actions, so that when it is all over then statistics will show the most balanced course of action to protect both the population and the economy, when of course we know the lasting effects on the economy.

This forum is obviously USA based and the vast majority of the member are from the USA so as an outsider I have two views of the USA reopening, on one hand I'm thinking 'please don't do it too soon' and on the other hand I'm thinking 'if it's what the majority wants then give it a go and we'll all learn from the experience'.

Whatever happens I hope that you are all able to do what you believe is best for you and yours.


----------



## archimedes

The United States is so large and diverse, that different states may take different approaches, and of course with different outcomes.

None of the decisions involved are easy or clear, at this point in time, despite the "certainty" of many posting in this thread.


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## bykfixer

With that said Archi, diverse discussions are also a must. Sometimes discussions can get sideways and become debates or even worse……arguments. But nonetheless are still a neccessity for a diverse populace to remain diverse. We at CPF talk about flashlights and how if everybody liked the same kind how devoid the flashlight world would be of variety. 

Same applies in this thread. Now if in fact at the end of say post I dunno, 4683 a winner is declared and not only America but the entire free world had to live with an outcome dictated by this thread……well bring on the gloves. But it's nothing more than a bunch of members sharing thoughts about a novel virus that has in many ways changed each of our lives in one way or another. 

I know some of the posters personally and get visuals of veins poking out of their temples as they retort to some statements made. Heck sometimes my bp rises too. But to quote a typical American Senator "even though I disagree with my friend across the aisle I do respect their rights to have that opinion". 

While saying that I also appreciate the time the staff here takes from their day to referee this thing as needed.

Those are the views of one person here now that the situation seems to have turned from predictions of dead people by the score to "hmmm, maybe it wasn't so bad after all". Now many just want to return to normal. As normal as reasonable while the virus still spreads. It's the what is reasonable part where the discussion largely is right now.

I watched a video about the so-called origins of this thing. Eh, I'd say parts seemed logical. Perhaps even true. Lots of speculation is still floating around. Some facts may never be known. But it did speak of some pretty slack situations in a laboratory where some pretty bad bugs were being studied. One scientist coined "bat woman" seemed to be concerned with viruses jumping from bats to humans may be the genisis in the whole mess. I saw that and thought "yeah I never did trust Commisioner Gordans kid, now look at what she did.

It seems it was not people eating bats, or anything to do with a fish market beyond some sick folks shopping there early in the epidemic. Right now it looks like it was simply an accidental release that may have happened at some point anyway if humans came in contact with a breed of bat in a remote part of China. Perhaps it had already wiped out a small populace in said remote area and bat woman was trying to understand why. It does not at this point seem as though anybody was like "mwew ah ah I'll show these people" or anything nepharious. Just "oops, uh oh"…… afterall scientists still aren't sure where the Spanish flu really started. A pig farm in Kansas, or from a bat in China or either.


----------



## scout24

Johnnyh- Outstanding point re: Personal Responsibility. I had to capitalize it, it's that big a point. We've had it drummed into our heads for months how bad this can be. If you're breathing in the US, you've had it beat into your subconcious. People will either take precautions or they won't. Voluntary compliance. There's nobody to "enforce" the guidelines. My local Big Orange home center yesterday- signs all over the cattle chute to go into the store requiring masks, and encouraging distancing. Employees with masks pulled down to just cover their mouths, or pulled completely down onto their necks. You want to be like that? Go ahead. When you get sick, I don't want to hear it. My stepson- Hopped in his car last week because New York was "violating his constitutional rights" and drove to his father's place in Florida. No mask or gloves, finger in the air. They were stopping all out of state traffic entering Florida. Fill out this paperwork, where are you coming from, where are you going, you have to isolate for two weeks once in state... First morning? Shopping at Publix and Walmart. I have ZERO sympathy if he gets sick. People can congregate at the chain grocery stores, home improvement stores, and handle cash all day at the drive throughs and take food made by other people? Open it all up and let people earn a paycheck again with reasonable precautions if they choose to. Let thise who want to participate do so. Same with thise who choose not to or choose to exercise precautions.


----------



## scout24

I'll throw this out there... SH- One of your big sticking points seems to be "A National Response." Put your President hat on for a minute and tell me what YOU would do, how you would pay for it, and how you'd enforce it in the United States.


----------



## lion504

Good points made by @nbp, including this: " Any one who wishes may continue to live a Safer At Home lifestyle as long as they wish."

@scout24: We have a mask requirement for meetings at work. Everyone starts the meeting wearing one, but by the end, half the people have them hanging around their neck. WTH???


----------



## bigburly912

scout24 said:


> I'll throw this out there... SH- One of your big sticking points seems to be "A National Response." Put your President hat on for a minute and tell me what YOU would do, how you would pay for it, and how you'd enforce it in the United States.



Well, when we tried to shut everything down initially the president was called a racist and told it wouldn’t work. So I would like to hear how anything else could have been done as well.


----------



## lion504

Johnnyh said:


> The Government cannot save us, be we can save ourselves.


Well said.


----------



## archimedes

archimedes said:


> .... None of the decisions involved are easy or clear, at this point in time, despite the "certainty" of many posting in this thread.





bykfixer said:


> With that said Archi, diverse discussions are also a must. Sometimes discussions can get sideways and become debates or even worse……arguments. But nonetheless are still a neccessity for a diverse populace to remain diverse....



I think you may have mistaken one of my points, or perhaps I did not express myself clearly enough above.

Diverse discussion is fine, excellent, and interesting, encouraged even. I enjoy considering viewpoints differing from my own, because I'm already pretty familiar with my position on things.

The tone of "I'm right and you're wrong" taken on occasion by posters here, is the issue.

If the necessary decisions were simple and obvious, they would be widely accepted and there would likely be no debate at all.

And some of the more "extreme" forms of this attitude are no longer visible in this thread  

Anyway, please everyone try to remain respectful and considerate of each other, whether or not they agree with your own strongly held beliefs.


----------



## Tejasandre

scout24 said:


> Johnnyh- Outstanding point re: Personal Responsibility. I had to capitalize it, it's that big a point. We've had it drummed into our heads for months how bad this can be. If you're breathing in the US, you've had it beat into your subconcious. People will either take precautions or they won't. Voluntary compliance. There's nobody to "enforce" the guidelines. My local Big Orange home center yesterday- signs all over the cattle chute to go into the store requiring masks, and encouraging distancing. Employees with masks pulled down to just cover their mouths, or pulled completely down onto their necks. You want to be like that? Go ahead. When you get sick, I don't want to hear it. My stepson- Hopped in his car last week because New York was "violating his constitutional rights" and drove to his father's place in Florida. No mask or gloves, finger in the air. They were stopping all out of state traffic entering Florida. Fill out this paperwork, where are you coming from, where are you going, you have to isolate for two weeks once in state... First morning? Shopping at Publix and Walmart. I have ZERO sympathy if he gets sick. People can congregate at the chain grocery stores, home improvement stores, and handle cash all day at the drive throughs and take food made by other people? Open it all up and let people earn a paycheck again with reasonable precautions if they choose to. Let thise who want to participate do so. Same with thise who choose not to or choose to exercise precautions.



I worry more about the people those no mask folks breath on more than the no mask folks. 

It’s my understanding the mask you wear protects others more than yourself.


----------



## bykfixer

Archi I think I understood your point. It's why I mentioned 3 aspects. Discussion, debate and argument. An old Elvis Costello tune called "two little Hitlers" was about arguing. As in each other tying to pose their will on the other. 

I do see some"nope I'm right" aspects, sure. But in discussions it does happen at times. It's why I closed with the thanks for you guys keeping things on the rails.

Edit: about mid-way was once the close but I added more later. 

So I'll close this post by repeating "thanks for taking the time to keep this thing on the rails".


----------



## KITROBASKIN

idleprocess said:


> It's _*days* late and *dollars* short_ to be worrying about deficit spending, such has it become the norm for generations now in good times and bad.


So the answer is give up caring? It doesn't have to be that way. 

We are in the ongoing great human experiment. With so many variables, there's no telling how this will unfold. What we think as normal is absolutely totally mind boggling abnormal compared to human history before this eyeblink in time we have been living since the beginning of the industrial age. What we do know is that strong motivation, grit and steadfast pursuit of a goal that is greater than our own selfishness can take us forward to a world worth living for those who are yet to be. They will be of our blood, and they can have a good life, just as so many of us have had a good life. Be strong friends.


----------



## bykfixer

Regarding wearing masks for long periods, it just gets old after a while. They restrict breathing. Until you get used to wearing one it just feels unnatural. It becomes uncomfortable after a while. Without a proper exhaust vent we are possibly taking in a mixture of fresh air and our exhaust at the same time. It's my understanding why true N95's have a one way exhaust port. 

I just left a facility where everybody was wearing a mask except the greeter. They check your temperature before you enter and once in the door the lady who points you left, right or straight did not even have one draped down. I'm typing this in a parking lot where even folks like me waiting outside are social distancing our vehicles in every other parking spot. 

So how do we begin to continue life while taking on the risk of catching a novel virus? Too much fear will drown us. Too much relaxing right now will also be a killer of some. My view is to continue to promote responsible behavior by example and we'll be ok.


----------



## idleprocess

KITROBASKIN said:


> So the answer is give up caring? It doesn't have to be that way.


Nope. My point is that defecit hawks might ought to have had their hackles up _far earlier in the game_ during the good times when such activity was less beneficial rather than now when it can greatly reduce the duration of a downturn at less overall cost to the economy. Also fixating on a potential _last straw_ ignores prior contributory negligence that is just as complicit - much of it moreso.


----------



## nbp

I love the syntax of your sentences @idleprocess. In a world of 140 character tweet style sentences, complex sentence structure is a pleasure to read.


----------



## lion504

idleprocess said:


> Also fixating on a potential _last straw_ ignores prior contributory negligence that is just as complicit - much of it moreso.


Are you talking about negligence in tending the federal budget and debt? Or negligence in preparing for a pandemic? Can you elaborate?


----------



## P_A_S_1

The second thread, wow. Missed a lot of posts but skimming through I noticed masks with exhaust vents mentioned. They don't protect others from your exhalation which kind of negates the point of the mask.


----------



## knucklegary

I don't think it's the exhaled carbon dioxide experts are worried about

They don't want the uninfected caught in path of flying loogie droplets such as when sneezing or coughing


----------



## P_A_S_1

Correct however it's not just coughs/sneezes. Your exhaust can carry the virus too hence the ported masks negating their purpose. 

Not sure the source but my building has posted notices in the elevator that compare potential infection probability between two individuals, one with covid19 and the other without. The former without mask the latter with and the chance of transmission is still 70%. Reverse it and it's 10%. Both using a mask 2%.


----------



## idleprocess

lion504 said:


> Are you talking about negligence in tending the federal budget and debt? Or negligence in preparing for a pandemic? Can you elaborate?



This is in the context of the federal budget - deficit spending has been the norm for some 60+ years for a variety of reasons of varying degrees of urgency; my argument is that considerably little of it was *necessary*. Had we better matched expenditures to revenues we'd be carrying less debt and the government would have fewer constraints on stimulating the economy during a downturn.

Insofar as this round of debt being a _last straw_, it's weird to focus on this specific spending just because it is the most recent. You can find economists that oppose government deficits on ideological grounds but I expect precious few will argue that the practical impact of borrowing to stimulate the economy costs more - or is even comparable - to the costs of doing nothing as a recession wreaks havoc on the economy.

I for one do not look forward to the shorter-term reckoning that's coming when restrictions on foreclosures, evictions, and collections are lifted in the coming months - I expect that some entities will push forward, ruin lives who through no fault of their own could not pay, then discover there aren't many standing in line behind the _collectees_ to mortgage, rent, buy/subscribe.


----------



## idleprocess

P_A_S_1 said:


> The second thread, wow. Missed a lot of posts but skimming through I noticed masks with exhaust vents mentioned. They don't protect others from your exhalation which kind of negates the point of the mask.



Ah, but your breath has to escape somehow and much of that is not going to be through the filter medium. As evidence I submit the problem of _glasses fogging_ with common dust masks: positive pressure encourages air to seek easier means of egress than going out through the filter medium thus much of each exhalation escapes around the periphery - but does so in directions orthogonal to the direction one is facing, losing much velocity along the way. While exhaust valves do not diffuse the output so much as the perimeter of a simple mask, they still redirect the output and most designs I've seen also direct the breath downward.

Folks that wear eyeglasses are a large slice of the population; addressing the problem of glasses fogging _through use of a better-designed mask_ makes wearing a mask more likely with less adjustment while being worn.


----------



## knucklegary

P A S 1 what floor are you on.. if you can physically use the stairwell, and wearing backpack to carry things, that is much safer than a elevator. Healthier too!


----------



## ven

bykfixer said:


> My view is to continue to promote responsible behavior by example and we'll be ok.




Yep, my view to, just get on with it. Distance, PPE hopefully if available to the person, use it. Its easier IMHO to just get on with it, yes inconvenient, uncomfortable at times( 12hr shift with safety glasses, mask, washing hands all the time, gloves all adds up to = not much fun. I wear in work to protect others, i wear one when i go into a shop or supermarket.......to protect others. All i need is everyone else to do the same! 

A chap actually called tom jones came back to work over a week back(not unusual!....yep he may get that a lot). He had 4 weeks off in total, his wife had it, then him. Put him on his a55 for a week, not as bad as his wife . Its real, its getting closer to home. 

UK looking soon to relax some measures, i get the opening some businesses etc. But defo need the distancing, PPE for the general public to be able to get hold of. After all this effort by 95% of the UK population, would be a shame to undo it all in a few days. Thats all it will take, back to square 1!

As more strains get identified, now a strain/s in europe and US which now re-infect!
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...avirus-strain-sweeping-europe-and-us-11983554

Stay safe CPF


----------



## P_A_S_1

Lower floor so I walk the stairs but so do many, it's a building of over 500 apartments. I actually avoid the elevator for other reasons as it's become contentious and a source of problems between residents.


----------



## knucklegary

Yeah i would think different mindsets using stairs
Good you're near street level, and fresher outdoor air


----------



## SCEMan

P_A_S_1 said:


> Not sure the source but my building has posted notices in the elevator that compare potential infection probability between two individuals, one with covid19 and the other without. The former without mask the latter with and the chance of transmission is still 70%. Reverse it and it's 10%. Both using a mask 2%.



I wonder what mask type was used for testing (cloth, paper or N95)?


----------



## bykfixer

P_A_S_1 said:


> Correct however it's not just coughs/sneezes. Your exhaust can carry the virus too hence the ported masks negating their purpose.
> 
> Not sure the source but my building has posted notices in the elevator that compare potential infection probability between two individuals, one with covid19 and the other without. The former without mask the latter with and the chance of transmission is still 70%. Reverse it and it's 10%. Both using a mask 2%.



Some places ban masks with exhaust valves 
https://www.fastcompany.com/90496717/what-is-a-mask-valve-and-why-are-cities-banning-them

Makes sense. 
I was just responding to a comment about people taking them off during meetings etc. 

I keep one on me but only deploy it when I feel the need such as being within 10' of people indoors. I have a pair of masks that don't let light through that have a slice of hepa filter between two layers of cotton cloth. A third one is the inexpensive coffee filter looking type for places like I went to earlier today where have to have a mask to get inside. I treated my glasses with toothpaste several days ago to act as an anti fog. Works pretty good until you clean the lenses. So it has to be reapplied every couple of days. Rain X anti fog works well too.


----------



## StarHalo

scout24 said:


> I'll throw this out there... SH- One of your big sticking points seems to be "A National Response." Put your President hat on for a minute and tell me what YOU would do, how you would pay for it, and how you'd enforce it in the United States.



Leave the NSC pandemic unit intact in 2018, heed the warnings present in Presidential briefings in January and openly share that information, declare National Lockdown as daily new cases enter triple digits in early March, National Lockdown includes mandatory enforcement of all CDC guidelines, begin national coordination of emergency supplies such as ventilators/PPE/tests, advocate national production drive of ventilators/PPE/tests and recruitment campaign for healthcare workers.

Had intervention been this early and uniformly applied, it would have severely slowed the curve where it was left unchecked by states unsure of what to do or not interested in participating. This would most likely have resulted in a flattened curve by the end of April - that would mean tens of thousands fewer deaths and we would already be in the return-to-work phase.

The timing for this scenario follows other countries that reacted early and nationally, this is not a pie-in-the-sky or monday-morning-quarterback synopsis - I sincerely believe that this is what most any other president in American history would have done purely reflexively as part of the means given to them, regardless of party or belief system.


----------



## P_A_S_1

bykfixer said:


> Some places ban masks with exhaust valves
> https://www.fastcompany.com/90496717/what-is-a-mask-valve-and-why-are-cities-banning-them
> 
> ..... I treated my glasses with toothpaste several days ago to act as an anti fog. Works pretty good until you clean the lenses. So it has to be reapplied every couple of days. Rain X anti fog works well too.




I treat my swimming goggles with JJ baby shampoo as an anti fog. Works and is cheap.


----------



## bykfixer

I'll try that PAS1 as I have some for when the grandson visits. 

Hey Star
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-trump-fired-pandemic-team-idUSKBN21C32M
Read this. 
It was streamlined not disbanded. 

Oh and the corona task force has not been disbanded, it has pivoted towards post corona shock wave and will be focused on recovery. 

The national stockpile was practically depleted after the swine flu out break. Many companies moved production of medical devices over seas due to taxes placed on production of said devices under the Affordable Care Act. That and the bulk of remaining supplies were overseas where they were ready for deployment to the armed services in combat zones at a moments notice. Operation air bridge brought humongous amounts of PPE back in a matter of days and were doled out to states as they requested it. 

The governors were put in charge of their own situation so the a centralized one size fits all approach would instead be tailored to the needs of said states. As per this crazy old fashioned thing called the Constitution dictates. A public/privat partnership was created early on so instead of tests being done with 15 year old reagents that gave about 50% incorrect results after a probe was shoved down your nose until you gag only to have a 50/50 chance of being correct the private industry (ie greedy capitalists) created newer, better tests in a matter of a couple of weeks. Ones that can be done without the torture. 

It was actually impressive how the American government banded together and got a lot done in a short time. Federal, State and Local. New York was a disaster waiting to happen. Millions stuffed into subways each day was a recipe for a massive outbreak. In early March their health director was still saying "pfft, don't sweat it". Talk about slow to act. 

The army corp of engineers built tens of thousands of portable hospital rooms with electricity and oxygen in a matter of days. Massive numbers of national guard troops relieved over worked doctors and nurses while delivering millions upon millions of pieces of personal protective equipment to hardest hit areas. Often before the governor asked them to because the task force was on top of the numbers. It was a very large scale operation that the news media chose to ignore because they chose to harp on the negatives. Shame on them. Americans from coast to coast had an awesome operation that no other country on planet earth could even dream of much less execute in a short time span hidden from them by a so-called free press bent on focusing what is wrong about the nation that gives them the very power to be real journalists. 

My state is a perfect example of why a centralized approach is not the way to go. If you want to see the daily counts, hmmm sorry the site's down again today. Our tests came from China, and are all being checked at 2 labs statewide, both run by the state while private labs lay people off. About 10% of our lab capacity is being used. The tests are those kind you shove up your nose until you gag and it takes up to 5 days to find out if you are positive. "But it's free" says the health director of my state. Hmmm free torture? I'll pass. 

The public, private, military, federal, state and local government process probably saved way more lives than some bearucratic one size fits all centralized approach would have. But it takes eyes willing to see and ears willing to hear to understand that.


----------



## coffeecup66




----------



## KITROBASKIN

idleprocess said:


> Nope. My point is that defecit hawks might ought to have had their hackles up _far earlier in the game_ during the good times when such activity was less beneficial rather than now when it can greatly reduce the duration of a downturn at less overall cost to the economy. Also fixating on a potential _last straw_ ignores prior contributory negligence that is just as complicit - much of it moreso.


Still sounds like complaining about the past, and putting down someone else's complaint that they have.


----------



## scout24

StarHalo said:


> Leave the NSC pandemic unit intact in 2018, heed the warnings present in Presidential briefings in January and openly share that information, declare National Lockdown as daily new cases enter triple digits in early March, National Lockdown includes mandatory enforcement of all CDC guidelines, begin national coordination of emergency supplies such as ventilators/PPE/tests, advocate national production drive of ventilators/PPE/tests and recruitment campaign for healthcare workers.
> 
> Had intervention been this early and uniformly applied, it would have severely slowed the curve where it was left unchecked by states unsure of what to do or not interested in participating. This would most likely have resulted in a flattened curve by the end of April - that would mean tens of thousands fewer deaths and we would already be in the return-to-work phase.
> 
> The timing for this scenario follows other countries that reacted early and nationally, this is not a pie-in-the-sky or monday-morning-quarterback synopsis - I sincerely believe that this is what most any other president in American history would have done purely reflexively as part of the means given to them, regardless of party or belief system.



Pay for it and enforce it, please? And ask the senior representative from your state to not be inviting people to "come to Chinatown" in her district almost a month after she accused the President of being racist for putting a travel ban in place? Dr. Fauci has been with the CDC since I was born, has advised multiple presidents. Dr Birx was an Obama appointee. I'd say the current administration has listened to the advice of decades of bipartisan experience in the room...

And let's try moving forward, not second guessing and playing monday morning quarterback. Most of your post is telling me what you would have done AFTER surveying damage from the hurricane.I asked what would you do, not re-hash what would you have done...

Please also remember, doing anything by national decree requires cooperation at both the state and inside-the- beltway level this being the United States and all. Something the current administration has been a bit short on since day one.


----------



## LGT

P_A_S_1 said:


> Correct however it's not just coughs/sneezes. Your exhaust can carry the virus too hence the ported masks negating their purpose.
> 
> Not sure the source but my building has posted notices in the elevator that compare potential infection probability between two individuals, one with covid19 and the other without. The former without mask the latter with and the chance of transmission is still 70%. Reverse it and it's 10%. Both using a mask 2%.


Exhaust will escape from most masks, not just the vented. I notice this everyday when my eyeglasses steam up no matter how tightly I pinch the metal strip over the top of my nose. Your exhale is coming out from somewhere.


----------



## StarHalo

bykfixer said:


> It was actually impressive how the American government banded together and got a lot done in a short time.
> 
> Americans from coast to coast had an awesome operation that no other country on planet earth could even dream of much less execute in a short time span
> 
> The public, private, military, federal, state and local government process probably saved way more lives



You sound like a very satisfied customer, you should just enjoy your purchase and not worry about the reviews.



scout24 said:


> Pay for it and enforce it, please?
> 
> And let's try moving forward, not second guessing and playing monday morning quarterback. Most of your post is telling me what you would have done AFTER surveying damage from the hurricane.I asked what would you do, not re-hash what would you have done...
> 
> Please also remember, doing anything by national decree requires cooperation



Part one critiques the plan you asked for, part two says that's not the plan you were asking for, part three says the plan isn't actually possible. You really need to take more time with these response posts, this isn't going well..


----------



## scout24

The plan I asked for was what you would do, not what you would have done. Re-read my post. I asked for you to explain how you would pay for and enforce it. You provided nothing. Part three reminds you where you live, and politely reminds you doing things by decree requires cooperation. You should perhaps read twice before responding, providing answers to the questions asked rather than push an agenda...


----------



## scout24

I'll try to go point-by-point from your plan for clarity. 

1. Heed warnings in January? Like instituting a travel ban to be called racist and ridiculed? See: Pelosi/Chinatown a month later.

2. National lockdown? Again, would need support from Gov's and congress. Good luck. 

3. National coordination of supplies? You can't get Cuomo or DiBlasio to tell anyone what they have. I'm sure you would have had better luck. 

4. Advocate production drive? Like the Defense Production Act that was enacted? 

5. Recruitment campaign? Like letting retired Dr's and Nurses whose credentials were only good in their state travel to other states to help out? Reach out to recently retired military with pertinent MOS's and ask them to come back? Like was done?

Do I have your plan pretty much covered, as was done in Washington since the beginning?


----------



## StarHalo

"No StarHalo, I meant national response as in what a national response would be after the states-only response. You may have given a comprehensive non-partisan answer, but you provided nothing and it pushed an agenda." :shakehead


----------



## P_A_S_1

LGT said:


> Exhaust will escape from most masks, not just the vented. I notice this everyday when my eyeglasses steam up no matter how tightly I pinch the metal strip over the top of my nose. Your exhale is coming out from somewhere.



To some degree yes, hard to get a good seal without a gasket and even then proper fit is important. I had a few n95 with gaskets, they were good.

Imo non vented come much closer to the goal then vented even with the leakage.


----------



## scout24

StarHalo said:


> "No StarHalo, I meant national response as in what a national response would be after the states-only response. You may have given a comprehensive non-partisan answer, but you provided nothing and it pushed an agenda." :shakehead



Your first sentence is nonsensical, and your comprehensive non-partisan plan mirrors what has already been done, as was broken down point by point... Your agenda seems to be "this is what I would have done, even though it's already been done. And it would have worked better if I did it."

I asked what you would do, how you would pay for it, and how you would enforce it. You answerd what you would have done, and ignored the other two questions. Seems pretty clear.. And I'm comfortable calling your last paragraph of your inital response to me today "pushing an agenda."


----------



## bykfixer

I'm pretty proud of how America handled the corona crisis Star. Was it perfect? No far from it. 

Actually I stopped caring what the mass media said when I saw American pissed off at American when Vietnam vets came home. I was about 7 years old and was shocked to see little kids throwing rocks at soldiers. Yup. It happened thanks to a press that put out stories of attrocities being perpertrated by American soldiers based on stories told to them my enemy combatants. The press made up lie after lie about what was going on each evening on the. 6:30 news. 

As a young adult American was pissed off at American during what was called "the Rodney King" situation. 

Now in the new millenium that same mass media is trying to keep American pissed off at American. Shamefully on us, millions gobble up the nonsense and keyboard warriors repeat it day after day. 

What's more shameful is the real facts can be found in less time than it took me to write this post, if one is even interested.


----------



## knucklegary

Amen Byk!!


----------



## RedLED

Fixer,

I said in part one of this thread that I hope they pay for what they have done, I really hope they pay.


----------



## bykfixer

China should have said "Houston we have a problem" long before they did. But there's blood on the hands of a whole lot of people in high places. History will show that later on.


----------



## StarHalo

bykfixer said:


> But there's blood on the hands of a whole lot of people in high places. History will show that later on.



See, there's plenty we can all agree on. You can even "I told you so" that one later on, all good.


----------



## bykfixer

I generally do not keep score Star. I understand your point though. I just smile and say to myself "hmmm, saw that one a while ago".
I said a while ago "there's lots of blame to go around" due to a lot of screwing up going way back to the late 90's. AIDS research played a big part. Just use a search engine to see who some of the super stars were back then for clues. Then search anthrax researchers, ebola scientists. SARS, MERS. It's all out there and it all came together for a perfect storm in a place called Wuhan China. 

It's a long list of well intentioned scientists and public officials who played a role in this thing. Leaders from several nations knew what was happening. Many countries funded it. Orange man just happened to reside in the white house of America when the storm occured. I don't say that to put him down or defend him. It was just like when fate put Woodrow Wilson in the white house when WW1 broke out at about the time the Spanish flu did it's thing.


----------



## nbp

Here’s something I’ve been pondering today that I don’t hear anyone talking about when comparing cases between countries: Age demographics. If you take a look at the number of people over age 65 (considered the highest risk group) across the world it’s quite telling. Check out the top 20 countries with the largest number of people over age 65 and guess what you’ll find?? Most of the outbreak and death hotspots, like the USA, UK, Italy, Spain etc. It makes sense to me that the nations with the largest numbers of high risk people would also see the highest number of deaths, regardless of mitigating factors. Someplace like Nigeria with a median age of 15 is just not going to be affected the same way as a place with mountains of aging folks by this particular disease.


----------



## bykfixer

Good morning C…P…Effffffffffff






Life during corona

NBP, a unique effect of this novel virus seems to be that in younger people who lack certain enzymes or something that triggers the body to defend itself the virus kinda goes in, dances around and dies. Where as we get older those enzymes or whatever have developed and it's those things that trigger the body to nuke itself when the virus enters. 

With previous viruses it is the lack of those enzymes that allows a virus to loot and plunder the body of younger people. 
I way over simplified that, but it's one of the things that has scientists scratching their heads. It's almost like mother nature created a super bug to seek out and destroy a particular group of humans and largely leave the rest alone. Kinda like a neutron bomb virus or something.


----------



## Poppy

A virus is an absolutely killing machine, a parasite if you will. It does not digest food and process food and create energy through the KREB cycle, instead, it invades a cell, steals the energy packets it has stored, and then uses the cell's DNA and digested proteins to replicate more versions of itself. It is an invading multiplicating organism. It is amazing that our body's immune system can fight them off.


_________________________________________
*Immune responses to viruses*

Kerry Laing, Fred Hutchinson Cancer Research Centre, Seattle, US
Via cytotoxic cells


When a virus infects a person (host), it invades the cells of its host in order to survive and replicate. Once inside, the cells of the immune system cannot ‘see’ the virus and therefore do not know that the host cell is infected. To overcome this, cells employ a system that allows them to show other cells what is inside them – they use molecules called *class I major histocompatibility complex proteins* (or *MHC class I*, for short) to display pieces of protein from inside the cell upon the cell surface. If the cell is infected with a virus, these pieces of peptide will include fragments of proteins made by the virus.




A special cell of the immune system called a *T cell* circulates looking for infections. One type of T cell is called a *cytotoxic T cell* because it kills cells that are infected with viruses with toxic mediators. more....


___________________________________________

*Age-Related Differences in Percentages of Regulatory and Effector T Lymphocytes and Their Subsets in Healthy Individuals and Characteristic STAT1/STAT5 Signalling Response in Helper T Lymphocytes*


The development, differentiation, and evolution of the immune system are dynamic processes evolving throughout the life of an individual. *The immune system of a child begins to resemble that of an adult only after puberty under the influence of sex hormones*, which promote full maturation of the immune system [1]. Alterations of the immune system continue with the *gradual deterioration in the elderly, resulting in age-related immune dysfunctions (immunosenescence) such as increased malignancies, autoimmune disorders, susceptibility to both viral and bacterial infections*, and diminished response to vaccination more....

________________________________________________


----------



## lion504

idleprocess said:


> This is in the context of the federal budget - deficit spending has been the norm for some 60+ years for a variety of reasons of varying degrees of urgency; my argument is that considerably little of it was *necessary*. Had we better matched expenditures to revenues we'd be carrying less debt and the government would have fewer constraints on stimulating the economy during a downturn.


I agree with you because I'm against deficit spending. And similar to a variety of practices that, over time, accumulate compounding harms: smoking, gambling, etc. When you're at the back end of 30, 40, or 60 years of any of these habits, it's probably technically accurate to say that yesterday's event is not much worse than the day 1 event. 

But it feels like hindsight bias to say that previous decisions to add more debt were not urgent or necessary given the fact it's needed now IF you allow for borrowing in an emergency. For example: assume deficit spending sufficient to "safer at home" for 18 months; in 20 years, if we experience a pandemic orders of magnitude worse than COVID-19 our response must be "COVID-19 wasn't that bad and we made a mistake borrowing the money."

In other words, who gets to say that today's crisis is worse than tomorrow's? Our time horizon can only be 2, 4, or 6 years.


----------



## idleprocess

lion504 said:


> I agree with you because I'm against deficit spending. And similar to a variety of practices that, over time, accumulate compounding harms: smoking, gambling, etc. When you're at the back end of 30, 40, or 60 years of any of these habits, it's probably technically accurate to say that yesterday's event is not much worse than the day 1 event.
> 
> But it feels like hindsight bias to say that previous decisions to add more debt were not urgent or necessary given the fact it's needed now IF you allow for borrowing in an emergency. For example: assume deficit spending sufficient to "safer at home" for 18 months; in 20 years, if we experience a pandemic orders of magnitude worse than COVID-19 our response must be "COVID-19 wasn't that bad and we made a mistake borrowing the money."
> 
> In other words, who gets to say that today's crisis is worse than tomorrow's? Our time horizon can only be 2, 4, or 6 years.



Our understanding of _actions_ in the past will almost always be more comprehensive than our understanding of the circumstances surrounding a present _decision_. However, one can still make assessments of decisions using best-possible information that is known at the time. With COVID-19 we saw large sectors of the economy shut and record jumps in unemployment - on the latter point shattering anything that's _*ever*_ happened - signs that this is immensely more urgent than another bump in general spending without a corresponding bump in revenues (be it explicit in raising taxes or even implicit reasonable projections of increases in collection due to a growing economy). In 20 years if there's a pandemic that's an order of magnitude worse than COVID-19, I hope our response is also an order of magnitude more intense and far more timely.

Given that this line of discussion stemmed from a member that hasn't since responded, I'm opting leave it be since this is veering towards the kinds of politics that CPF management prefers not to see and is better conducted on the other forum.


----------



## StarHalo

idleprocess said:


> In 20 years if there's a pandemic that's an order of magnitude worse than COVID-19, I hope our response is also an order of magnitude more intense and far more timely.



That we should use any examples available to us, such as the reactions of other industrialized nations, to minimize the amount of economic downtime which is the scenario that would produce the least fiscal damage, amen.


----------



## bykfixer

If you mean me, I chose not to respond for a bunch of reasons. 

But regardless how much deficiet spending occured in the past and why, we have never deficiet spent double the annual budget in one fell swoop. That was at round 3. Now before round 4 is spent there is talk of a round 5. Is it necessary? Worth it? 
That had nothing to do with my original comment. My original comment was responding to a comment of a member saying "future generations will remember x y z". 

I have coworkers who have spouses who are bringing in 2x the amount of $ to sit at home rather than to work. My kids who get out of bed, go to jobs everyday where they face the public are shaking their heads about the fact that their government is simpley printing money for that.


----------



## lion504

Seems like (to me at least) gov's financial response to COVID-19 is within scope of this thread. There's not an interesting aspect of this pandemic that is apolitical, thus the spirited debate and heated conversation... Otherwise, I'm good.


----------



## SCEMan

lion504 said:


> Seems like (to me at least) gov's financial response to COVID-19 is within scope of this thread. There's not an interesting aspect of this pandemic that is apolitical, thus the spirited debate and heated conversation... Otherwise, I'm good.



Well, I find the the deliberate government coverup of the COVID-19 outbreak by China interesting and apolitical. As more countries are weighing in on this, it will be interesting to see what the global ramifications will be for China's heinous act.


----------



## orbital

+

Global population/total deaths from Covid19::

less than 3 deaths per 78,000 people

or

*about 5 deaths per 150,000 people 

..so what's that percentage?
*


----------



## StarHalo

orbital said:


> Global population/total deaths from Covid19::



And only 15 in 780,000 people die every day. Aren't numbers fun..


----------



## orbital

+

covid19 deaths = 0.0033 percent of total world population


perspective.


----------



## StarHalo

And you have only a 0.0019 chance of dying at all, indeed.


----------



## orbital

+

More numbers for perspective

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6815659/


----------



## StarHalo

As of April 21st, 26% of all patients in Detroit nursing homes tested positive for COVID, with a death rate just under 12%. Lots of numbers to see..


----------



## Greta

StarHalo said:


> And you have only a 0.0019 chance of dying at all, indeed.



Well... _technically_... you have a 100% chance of dying. Just sayin'.


----------



## Tejasandre

Greta said:


> Well... _technically_... you have a 100% chance of dying. Just sayin'.



Truth


----------



## idleprocess

Statistics for the county I live in.

Top-level stats (as of today, 2020-05-07):

872 total confirmed cases
428 active cases
421 recovered cases
23 deaths

Using some hasty Excel-Fu: 0.0983% of the County (population ~887k) has or had the disease or 0.00872 per 100,000. 2.64% of cases or 0.00023 per 100,000 have proven fatal.

The age 40-49 bracket is prime bracket for catching it, however does well for surviving it. Being in the 70-79 and 80+ age brackets those lethality rates of 10.5% and 27.3% don't look so great.

The overwhelming majority of transmission is confirmed case contact (415) combined with local transmission (312).

Case load by municipality seems to be roughly proportional to each city's population with poorer cities looking to have greater case loads per unit population although some larger cities are not fully within the county _(Frisco, Carrollton, Plano)_, muddying the picture.

The cases per Day view suggests that a _symptom onset_ peak occurred on 25 March (56 cases) with a steeper leading tail than the trailing tail. The _reporting peak_ was on 27 March (54 cases) with a less clear pattern of ups and downs afterwards.

Hospitals are reporting 41.6% total bed occupancy and 42.6% ICU occupancy. Ventilators are at 15.08% utilization.

_Personal TL;DR : if you're going to be hospitalized in Denton County, now isn't *automatically* a terrible time._


----------



## turbodog

Greta said:


> Well... _technically_... you have a 100% chance of dying. Just sayin'.



Like Tyler says, on a long enough timeline the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.


----------



## turbodog

bykfixer said:


> If you mean me, I chose not to respond for a bunch of reasons.
> 
> But regardless how much deficiet spending occured in the past and why, we have never deficiet spent double the annual budget in one fell swoop. That was at round 3. Now before round 4 is spent there is talk of a round 5. Is it necessary? Worth it?
> That had nothing to do with my original comment. My original comment was responding to a comment of a member saying "future generations will remember x y z".
> 
> I have coworkers who have spouses who are bringing in 2x the amount of $ to sit at home rather than to work. My kids who get out of bed, go to jobs everyday where they face the public are shaking their heads about the fact that their government is simpley printing money for that.



It's not an exact science to shotgun gobs of cash across the US. Some will get more than then need, some less. But there was not time to do a more precise job.


----------



## Dave D

orbital said:


> +
> 
> covid19 deaths = 0.0033 percent of total world population
> 
> 
> perspective.



You forgot to add 'So far"!

If the entire population of the world was to be infected then your percentage would increase somewhat!


----------



## lion504

SCEMan said:


> Well, I find the the deliberate government coverup of the COVID-19 outbreak by China interesting *and apolitical*.



Sadly, many in the media and Washington already abhor calling the pandemic “Chinese,” instead noting that it is “global.” Some elites hold up the Wu-Han lock down as praiseworthy.

China is a powerful country with a powerful lobby in the US. They own so much of our debt, manufacturing, pharma, media, higher education, etc that holding them accountable will be expensive and painful; many will not have the stomach for that. 

The success of impending legislation will tell us if this is bipartisan.

I hope it is.


----------



## scout24

Lion504- Not even from a holding them accounable point of view, but from a "pc" perspective: We have no problem calling the Spanish flu of 1918 what it was based on origin. Had no problem with that for 102 years. I wonder why the public distaste for Chinese or Wuhan flu? It's where it originated.


----------



## scout24

StarHalo said:


> And you have only a 0.0019 chance of dying at all, indeed.





Greta said:


> Well... _technically_... you have a 100% chance of dying. Just sayin'.


----------



## bykfixer

Everybody who contracts covid-19 will die. 
Everybody who does not contract covid-19 will die. 

Each of us realizes we will die some day but spend our lives pretending that isn't the case. For if we did not we would remain paralyzed our whole lives trying to prevent it.

Yesterday one of my retired coworkers stopped by the project to say hello. He instinctively stuck his hand out to shake it. I replied "if you aint scared, I aint scared". He's 78 years young and stays pretty isolated. We talked about things and he went on his way. We did bump elbows at his departure though. 

Another fellow had on latex gloves to rub some concrete on a damaged section of concrete pipe to patch it. When he removed his gloves he pulled the second one off inside of the first one like a nurse or doctor would. I remarked about that to him and he said he was an EMT in his spare time. He indicated he was not afraid to be around people right now but instead is more afraid that if everybody sterilizes everything, wears masks and gloves all the time they will get sick from something else due to no germs reaching their immune systems due to all of the disinfecting they do. He said as long as he doesn't live in New York, New Jersey or Massechussetts he aint afraid.

The take away from both people was yeah, this thing is serious but we're all going to die someday so why not live life until then.


----------



## lion504

Good perspective byk - thanks for sharing.


----------



## lion504

scout24 said:


> Lion504- Not even from a holding them accounable point of view, but from a "pc" perspective: We have no problem calling the Spanish flu of 1918 what it was based on origin. Had no problem with that for 102 years. I wonder why the public distaste for Chinese or Wuhan flu? It's where it originated.



True. Heard San Antonio just passed a resolution declaring "Chinese" or "Wuhan" pandemic labels as hate speech. Not sure if that is fake news. 

A good friend of mine is Chinese-American. He is 100% anti-CCP and regularly says "Wu-flu." 

It's possible to simultaneously be outraged by the actions of the Chinese government (and want to hold them accountable) while rejecting discrimination and hate crimes against American citizens and the Chinese people.


----------



## Tejasandre

lion504 said:


> True. Heard San Antonio just passed a resolution declaring "Chinese" or "Wuhan" pandemic labels as hate speech. Not sure if that is fake news.
> 
> A good friend of mine is Chinese-American. He is 100% anti-CCP and regularly says "Wu-flu."
> 
> It's possible to simultaneously be outraged by the actions of the Chinese government (and want to hold them accountable) while rejecting discrimination and hate crimes against American citizens and the Chinese people.



I’m in San Antonio, hadn’t heard that.


----------



## Poppy

bykfixer said:


> Everybody who contracts covid-19 will die.
> Everybody who does not contract covid-19 will die.
> 
> Each of us realizes we will die some day but spend our lives pretending that isn't the case. For if we did not we would remain paralyzed our whole lives trying to prevent it.
> 
> Yesterday one of my retired coworkers stopped by the project to say hello. He instinctively stuck his hand out to shake it. I replied "if you aint scared, I aint scared". He's 78 years young and stays pretty isolated. We talked about things and he went on his way. We did bump elbows at his departure though.
> 
> Another fellow had on latex gloves to rub some concrete on a damaged section of concrete pipe to patch it. When he removed his gloves he pulled the second one off inside of the first one like a nurse or doctor would. I remarked about that to him and he said he was an EMT in his spare time. He indicated he was not afraid to be around people right now but instead is more afraid that if everybody sterilizes everything, wears masks and gloves all the time they will get sick from something else due to no germs reaching their immune systems due to all of the disinfecting they do. He said as long as he doesn't live in New York, New Jersey or Massechussetts he aint afraid.
> 
> The take away from both people was yeah, this thing is serious but we're all going to die someday so why not live life until then.



That's not MY take away from your two discussions.

Regarding the 78 year old, he may be the type who lived his life with an effective immune system, and rarely if ever gets sick. He may have developed an arrogance and expects that even if he gets exposed, he'll beat it. Some people are still vaping, and others still smoking cigarettes. Their arrogance leads them to believe that THEY are NOT the ONE who will get CANCER. 

Up until recently, most EMTs didn't wear PPE when picking up, treating, and transporting sick and injured patients, other than gloves (if they had gloves on). They like doctors, nurses, and teachers (who work in a petri dish) usually develop a superbly adapted immune system. He too, like the 78 year old man, may have developed an arrogance. 

*" but instead is more afraid that if everybody sterilizes everything, wears masks and gloves all the time they will get sick from something else due to no germs reaching their immune systems due to all of the disinfecting they do."*
Like pancreatic cancer? Liver disease, or heart attack?
But not viral induced, or pneumococcal induced pneumonia? 

That's not such a bad trade off.

Perhaps he spoke imprecisely, or was quoted incorrectly. 

My take is that masks and gloves are uncomfortable and inconvenient. Some people are either arrogant, or are willing to take their chances, rather than be inconvenienced for a few months until there is a proven herd immunity.


----------



## orbital

+

Common denominators in covid deaths have to be looked very closely, you simply have to.

Age
Overall health & exercise frequency
Smoker
Population density
Diet
*Prescription medication & antagonistic combinations of

How many optional & debatable prescriptions are pushed, where the number one negative side effect _(of many) _is _*"may effect the ability to fight infections" 

*_note: other than a prescription for mild pain reliever in the mid 90s' post surgery , I truly can't remember my last prescription..
so, a very long time


----------



## lion504

Tejasandre said:


> I’m in San Antonio, hadn’t heard that.


SA city council resolution here.


----------



## StarHalo

Poppy said:


> THEY are NOT the ONE
> 
> Some people are either arrogant, or are willing to take their chances, rather than be inconvenienced for a few months until there is a proven herd immunity.



That's the heart of the threat-to-self worldview; it's not going to get ME, so everything is squared away here, now you pull your weight and square it away with YOU. Those other people who get it were just going to die anyway, they shouldn't have been ill, that's not on me. You have to be aware of this concept for ~30% of the media coverage/posts here to make any sense at all.


----------



## Lumen83

bykfixer said:


> Everybody who contracts covid-19 will die.
> Everybody who does not contract covid-19 will die.



True. But, I'd prefer not to extradite the process by putting myself at risk without reward. I lead a life that includes activities that put me at a much higher risk of death from said activities than the average member of society probably has from the activities that they pursue. But, there is also a great level of reward in them. There isn't much reward for me in ignoring what I would consider standard safety practices with regard to this virus. So, I tend to avoid things that could expedite the death process without bringing a certain level of reward/benefit to me. Shaking hands with people right now is one activity that is in the low-reward category for me.


----------



## Tejasandre

lion504 said:


> SA city council resolution here.



Draft= not yet passed, no?


----------



## Dave D

scout24 said:


> Lion504- Not even from a holding them accounable point of view, but from a "pc" perspective: We have no problem calling the Spanish flu of 1918 what it was based on origin. Had no problem with that for 102 years. I wonder why the public distaste for Chinese or Wuhan flu? It's where it originated.



The Spanish flu did not originate in Spain, World war 1 was in full flow and neither side would allow their press to publish matters referring to the outbreak in case it showed a weakness in their military.

Spain was a neutral country and their press were the first to publish articles about the outbreak.

To this day the Spanish still find it offensive that it is referred to as Spanish flu!

It has been suggested that it originated in Kansas USA and was spread to Europe on the troop ships, it then devastated the troops in the unhygienic conditions of the trenches and was then brought back to the USA with returning troops.


----------



## scout24

Interesting, DaveD, thank you for the info. I was unaware of some of those details. We here in the US still call it the Spanish flu, regardless of origin, and we here in the US are the ones with the public distaste for calling Covid 19 the Chinese or Wuhan flu. I just found that sudden change a bit hypocritical. I've heard nobody call it the 1918 flu.


----------



## StarHalo

Dave D said:


> To this day the Spanish still find it offensive that it is referred to as Spanish flu!



This is the same country that gave hemp a Spanish name just so we could blame drug use on the Mexicans..


----------



## Poppy

StarHalo said:


> This is the same country that gave hemp a Spanish name just so we could blame drug use on the Mexicans..


Before there were Mexicans, hemp was grown in Ancient Egypt.


----------



## knucklegary

Mexicans never use or sold marijuana just ask Cheech & Chong


----------



## StarHalo

A Chinese hospital team has found evidence that COVID can be transmitted sexually even while in recovery; only 16% of their 38-person males-only sample showed this symptom.


----------



## Lumen83

knucklegary said:


> Mexicans never use or sold marijuana just ask Cheech & Chong



American and Canadian.


----------



## turbodog

Dave D said:


> The Spanish flu did not originate in Spain, World war 1 was in full flow and neither side would allow their press to publish matters referring to the outbreak in case it showed a weakness in their military.
> 
> Spain was a neutral country and their press were the first to publish articles about the outbreak.
> 
> To this day the Spanish still find it offensive that it is referred to as Spanish flu!
> 
> It has been suggested that it originated in Kansas USA and was spread to Europe on the troop ships, it then devastated the troops in the unhygienic conditions of the trenches and was then brought back to the USA with returning troops.



Yup. So for those US citizens concerned about China suppressing factual news you might want to look in the mirror.

We call it the 1918 flu or 1918 pandemic and make sure our kids know why it was called Spanish flu.

On a related note, I read a recent whitepaper, should be in peer review now, that is trying to track 1918 spread to military horses being shipped all over the world. Was very interesting. Can't find it now though...


----------



## lion504

Tejasandre said:


> Draft= not yet passed, no?




Not exactly sure. This report said it passed 11-0. :shrug:


----------



## lion504

Origination of the pandemic in 1918 is debated. This article attributes it to China.

It is natural that any county that is blamed (rightly or wrongly) will protest. In this case, it is expected that China will be upset.

A separate issue is whether a second country should consider _itself_ racist for attributing responsibility to another country. For example: Wu-flu, Belgian waffles, Mexican sombrero.


----------



## SCEMan

lion504 said:


> Obviously any county that is stigmatized will protest. In this case, it is expected that China will be offended.



I'd say so:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/03/china-trolling-world-and-avoiding-blame/608332/


----------



## bykfixer

The Spanish flu actually began in 1915 or 16.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3291398/
It was not seen as a big deal that year yet by todays standards it would have been deemed a pandemic. 

When people started moving around in small spaces like troops moving over seas it really took off. 

Once it died down there was actually a 3rd out break, mostly in California. 

In the 1930's a version of it wiped out lots of people. There was another deadly flu period in the 1950's thought to be a strain of it. 

In the 1970's it came back. More people died from the vaccine that the actual flu. That's one reason most people I know in their 70's absolutely refuse current flu shots. They have not forgotten that 1970's fiasco. 

In the 1990's yet another version of it spread. That one had me ill for weeks and took months to recover. 

We will probably never know where it began though. The first (known) reported case was a soldier who grew up on a pig farm in Kansas USA. 
There still isn't a vaccine for the Spanish flu.


----------



## StarHalo

All 20 million plus registered California voters will be receiving a mail-in ballot in November, with physical voting locations still optionally available.


----------



## knucklegary

I mail-in "absentee" so it does not apply to me. But, I will venture to say you'll see all blue states following mail-in ballots

Reasons are, of course, because of the "epidemic"


----------



## Tejasandre

lion504 said:


> Not exactly sure. This report said it passed 11-0. :shrug:



Weird. I totally missed that. That’s a reputable source.


----------



## Johnnyh

knucklegary said:


> I mail-in "absentee" so it does not apply to me. But, I will venture to say you'll see all blue states following mail-in ballots
> 
> Reasons are, of course, because of the "epidemic"



Fear-leveraging has really taken off these days! It’s always been a great way to get your way, except now it’s on steroids!


----------



## flashy bazook

orbital said:


> +
> 
> Common denominators in covid deaths have to be looked very closely, you simply have to.
> 
> Age
> Overall health & exercise frequency
> Smoker
> Population density
> Diet
> *Prescription medication & antagonistic combinations of
> 
> How many optional & debatable prescriptions are pushed, where the number one negative side effect _(of many) _is _*"may effect the ability to fight infections"
> 
> *_



By the way, as one indication of how much there is still to learn about how this virus works:

SMOKING some say is actually BENEFICIAL as a defense against the virus!

Something about nicotine using the same receptors to bind as does the corona-virus, so in a way makes it more difficult for the virus to attach itself.

Go figure.

Maybe time to dust off those wonderful cigars?


----------



## StarHalo

knucklegary said:


> I mail-in "absentee" so it does not apply to me. But, I will venture to say you'll see all blue states following mail-in ballots
> 
> Reasons are, of course, because of the "epidemic"



So when military or expatriates vote by mail, that's a liberal thing?


----------



## Dave D

scout24 said:


> Interesting, DaveD, thank you for the info. I was unaware of some of those details. We here in the US still call it the Spanish flu, regardless of origin, and we here in the US are the ones with the public distaste for calling Covid 19 the Chinese or Wuhan flu. I just found that sudden change a bit hypocritical. I've heard nobody call it the 1918 flu.




There is an interesting documentary on Youtube about it.


----------



## scout24

StarHalo said:


> So when military or expatriates vote by mail, that's a liberal thing?



There's a huge difference in military and expats using absentee ballots and entire states or the entire populace. In 2016's presidential election, 930k absentee ballots were issued to military and expats overseas, with 633k returned. (eac.gov) Hardly a statistical blip. Hardly enough to sway an election. And perhaps it's a liberal thing when the liberals are the ones asking for it while the conservatives are asking for voter ID's? And to Knucklegary's epedemic point, if we can stand in line to get into Walmart, we can stand in line to vote in November.


----------



## bykfixer

knucklegary said:


> I mail-in "absentee" so it does not apply to me. But, I will venture to say you'll see all blue states following mail-in ballots
> 
> Reasons are, of course, because of the "epidemic"



Funny how that works KG. Coincidently it's the blue team pushing hard for it. 

The member brought it up seems to be in favor of it. I cannot tell if it's due to good intentions or just likes being the fly on the horses ear again. 

Either way, 
My state governor announced some stuff yesterday that may or may not happen on the 15th. The local press is saying "extra extra read all about it, Ralph says we've just returned to normal" as if he had said "effective imediately". 

The jobs numbers, although pretty bad were predicted to be as bad as 33 million and ended up being 24 million. 

A fellow who occasionally has brought the US president his lunch tested positive. No not his personal valet as some news suggests. A member of the vp team has also tested positive. Mask or no mask it shows how anybody can catch it. Just ask the UK prime. He'll tell ya "man it'll straighten curly hair" as he emerged in public after being down for the 8 count with it. 

In other news in the US, there's a new hornet being talked about called murder hornets. Big ole ugly thing like out of a scarey sci-fi movie. At least the already dangerous Japanese hornet is fairly regal in appearance. This one be-heads honey bees. But like the corona virus it does not like heat and it seems worker bees don't sit around and wait for the queen to save them but instead do some kind of crazy bee dance in a chior like fashion, which in turn generates a bunch of heat that kills the murder hornet. It also seems this new super hornet has been here for a year or two. Question to my tin hat wearing mind was "is this murder hornet a genetically altered insect to thwart the genetically altered killer bee that was not supposed to escape the lab in the 1970's, and it too was not supposed to get out of the lab?" "Kinda like the novel corona did?" Is it in the US news cycle now since Americans were starting to come outside after the first wave of covid-19 has been declining? 

A new phenomenon has been discovered in the US related to the corona virus. Home deliveries had millions not checking on their computerized automobiles and now service companies are swamped with calls for dead car batteries. As folks have stayed put for weeks at a time they forgot all those gadgets in their automobiles use electricity. So if you did not get wiped out by covid-19 and can make it to your car without being accosted by murder hornets you discover your can won't start. 
Life in 2020. The year taco tuesday fell on sinco de mayo only to be cancelled by corona.


----------



## Dave D

bykfixer said:


> In other news in the US, there's a new hornet being talked about called murder hornets. Big ole ugly thing like out of a scarey sci-fi movie.









Sorry but I couldn't resist!! :laughing:


----------



## StarHalo

scout24 said:


> In 2016's presidential election, 930k absentee ballots were issued to military and expats overseas, with 633k returned. (eac.gov) Hardly a statistical blip. Hardly enough to sway an election.



And we wouldn't want votes to sway an election?


----------



## run4jc

Dave D said:


> Sorry but I couldn't resist!! :laughing:



We have an answer for the murder hornets....


----------



## scout24

The prospect of mail in ballots is one fraught with the possibility of fraud. If both sides were pushing for it, fine. If either single side is pushing for it, their motives are suspect. If we can stand in line at Wal Mart, we can stand in line to vote. The absentee ballot system as it is in place works as intended. There is zero need to expand it to a nationwide program. Maybe someday if it has broad based bipartisan support and a way to authenticate it like the current absentee system. Until then, no thanks.


----------



## StarHalo

scout24 said:


> If either single side is pushing for it, their motives are suspect.



So if there were a specific agenda on one side to reduce voting, that's how we would know it's suspect:


----------



## nbp

I feel like we’re beginning to stray.


----------



## scout24

Really relevant. Obscure individual from 40 years ago that has zero to do with today. And not even in the context of my comment. Almost textbook. SMDH...


You're correct, Nick. We were typing at the same time.


----------



## Johnnyh

nbp said:


> I feel like we’re beginning to stray.


 That’s an understatement!


----------



## StarHalo

nbp said:


> I feel like we’re beginning to stray.



The topic is mail voting due to Coronavirus, the debate is the possibility of voter fraud vs the reality of voter reduction. If you feel this is too contentious a subject for the thread, it can be reserved for Underground.


----------



## knucklegary

Copy that Mods.. who instigated this blue vs red bs anyway!


----------



## StarHalo

knucklegary said:


> Copy that Mods.. who instigated this blue vs red bs anyway!






knucklegary said:


> I mail-in "absentee" so it does not apply to me. But, I will venture to say you'll see all blue states following mail-in ballots
> 
> Reasons are, of course, because of the "epidemic"


----------



## scout24

So end it now, and go start your thread UG, SH...


----------



## StarHalo

scout24 said:


> So end it now, and go start your thread UG, SH...



I didn't bring up the politics of mail voting, anyone is free to continue it there.


----------



## knucklegary

Oops now that was inappropriate to say :devil:


----------



## StarHalo

knucklegary said:


> SH, in the UG can you say things like Bite my A$$ Chino!



"In the case of a society, take the situation of a country suffering war or any other situation of injustice. Try to see that every person involved in the conflict is a victim. See that no person, including all those in warring parties or in what appear to be opposing sides, desires the suffering to continue. See that it is not only one or a few persons who are to blame for the situation. See that the situation is possible because of the clinging to ideologies and to an unjust world economic system which is upheld by every person through ignorance or through lack of resolve to change it. See that two sides in a conflict are not really opposing, but two aspects of the same reality. See that the most essential thing is life and that killing or oppressing one another will not solve anything." - Thich Nhat Hanh


----------



## knucklegary

Ah.. "No death No Fear" Zen mantra


----------



## bykfixer

Don't start a new thread, please. Watching Star self-implode in this one is entertainment enough. 

Oh, see post 391………


----------



## StarHalo

bykfixer said:


> Don't start a new thread, please. Watching Star self-implode in this one is entertainment enough.
> 
> Oh, see post 391………



I'm just watching select individuals telling me to not to start conflicts, then the next dozen posts are people trying to start conflicts. It's mildly entertaining, but I was really hoping for something more informative.

And see post 382.


----------



## Greta

bykfixer said:


> Don't start a new thread, please. Watching Star self-implode in this one is entertainment enough.
> 
> Oh, see post 391………



*snicker/snort/giggle* -


----------



## bigburly912

StarHalo said:


> I'm just watching select individuals telling me to not to start conflicts, then the next dozen posts are people trying to start conflicts. It's mildly entertaining, but I was really hoping for something more informative.
> 
> And see post 382.



Poor iddle victim.


----------



## StarHalo

See, be like Greta and I and just enjoy the chat, that's what it's for.


----------



## scout24

StarHalo said:


> The topic is mail voting due to Coronavirus, the debate is the possibility of voter fraud vs the reality of voter reduction. If you feel this is too contentious a subject for the thread, it can be reserved for Underground.



It was your idea, make it happen...


----------



## StarHalo

RIP Roy Horn of Siegfried and Roy, who passed away yesterday from COVID-19. He was 75.


----------



## bykfixer

bykfixer said:


> Don't start a new thread, please. Watching Star self-implode in this one is entertainment enough.
> 
> Oh, see post 391………



Edit: correction; post 381. End edit


----------



## bykfixer

Dave D said:


> Sorry but I couldn't resist!! :laughing:



Good one Dave. Saved. 
I saw one with a certain politician so it would not be appropriate in this thread. 

Here's another cute one


----------



## scout24




----------



## StarHalo

One of the Ambassadors/trainers just strolled by with ~eight new hires in tow walking distantly behind him; he came to a stop to talk to somebody and the entire group just naturally all stopped roughly six feet from each other with no one providing direction or saying anything, like watching a spring re-compress. These younger folks are going to be different..


----------



## bigburly912

StarHalo said:


> and the entire group just naturally all stopped..



Nope.


----------



## bykfixer

Went through a local Taco Hell for dinner and I gotta say I was impressed with their anti corona spread way. Cash or card. Cash, they had some pre-sanitized "change" ready. Card, they hand you the card scanner out the window and you take it from there. I used a card. They ask if you'd like a receipt. "No thanks" I said. Then they hand your stuff to you on a tray and you remove it from said tray. 

Not 100% fool proof but definitely the best attempt at stopping the spread I've seen at a fast food joint yet. 

Went by a Target store for a mothers day gift and it was like 5x more packed than at Christmas. The crowd was about 50/50 masked. Voluntary. Long check out lines and folks were plenty spread out without "stand here" dots or lines on the floor. We found no line at the electronic counter and checked out there. 

It was good to see so many folks voluntarily attempting to slow the spread, yet keep living life as normal as practical.


----------



## idleprocess

bykfixer said:


> Went through a local Taco Hell for dinner and I gotta say I was impressed with their anti corona spread way. Cash or card. Cash, they had some pre-sanitized "change" ready. Card, they hand you the card scanner out the window and you take it from there. I used a card. They ask if you'd like a receipt. "No thanks" I said. Then they hand your stuff to you on a tray and you remove it from said tray.



Chik-Fil-A has the drive-through thing _down_ and has a similar playbook for going on two months.


----------



## nbp

StarHalo said:


> The topic is mail voting due to Coronavirus, the debate is the possibility of voter fraud vs the reality of voter reduction. If you feel this is too contentious a subject for the thread, it can be reserved for Underground.



Indeed. It ain’t rocket surgery. If you want to talk about how your voting experience has changed during the pandemic, that is on topic. But this party versus that party, that is Underground material. That should be pretty self-explanatory.


----------



## StarHalo

idleprocess said:


> Chik-Fil-A has the drive-through thing _down_ and has a similar playbook for going on two months.



Having Apple Pay set up makes these kinds of transactions much more touchless; I've found in most instances it's faster than using a card anyway.


----------



## bykfixer

Mother's Day is postponed until further notice.


----------



## lion504




----------



## StarHalo

Vitamin D dosing and details:



Parade day in lockdown-free Belarus, where they have the freedom* to not wear masks (* - enjoy the parade, comrade.)


----------



## Greta

Just spent a blissful hour social distancing all by myself in my pool absorbing copious quantities of vitamin D [emoji274]


----------



## bykfixer

Hmmm, how'd the double post happen? 

Oh well……





Double post play through


----------



## bykfixer




----------



## StarHalo

Greta said:


> Just spent a blissful hour social distancing all by myself in my pool absorbing copious quantities of vitamin D



Full sun/blue sky for 20 minutes is 10,000 IU per side of your body, something to be aware of if you've had vitamin D dosing issues before.


----------



## scout24

Greta said:


> Just spent a blissful hour social distancing all by myself in my pool absorbing copious quantities of vitamin D [emoji274]
> 
> View attachment 12279



This was my weather yesterday morning for dog walking. Windy and light snow. If we could split the difference, I'd be good...


----------



## Greta

StarHalo said:


> Full sun/blue sky for 20 minutes is 10,000 IU per side of your body, something to be aware of if you've had vitamin D dosing issues before.



The reason I had dosing issues in the past is because I was taking supplements per doctor's prescription on top of the time I spend outside. She prescribed based on my age and not by any other consideration :ironic: I've never had issues with spending time out in the sun and getting my vitamins naturally...


----------



## Greta

scout24 said:


> This was my weather yesterday morning for dog walking. Windy and light snow. If we could split the difference, I'd be good...



Pretty crazy, eh? Yeah, I would gladly split the difference as well. The only way I get through this heat is with my pool and AC in the house set at 73F.


----------



## PhotonWrangler

StarHalo said:


> Full sun/blue sky for 20 minutes is 10,000 IU per side of your body, something to be aware of if you've had vitamin D dosing issues before.




I don't get a lot of sun but I take 1000 units of D3 daily. When they measured my vitamin D level in my blood, it was right in the middle of the ideal range. YMMV of course.


----------



## bykfixer

scout24 said:


> This was my weather yesterday morning for dog walking. Windy and light snow. If we could split the difference, I'd be good...



East coast spring north of Myrtle Beach


----------



## PhotonWrangler

I love spring in my town. Last year it came on a Tuesday.


----------



## bykfixer

Todays grocery run was a bit of a shocker. Last evening Mrs Fixer and I went out for dinner and noticed the Food Lion parking lot looked like they were giving away cases of beer. When we arrived this morning the meat section looked like the toilet paper section. Only fresh bird they had was turkey necks. 
Amazingly there was a slew of pounds of ground beef at half price since it went out of date today. Stock up on aged burger meat? Eh, I don't dig on ground beef much these days so I passed it by. But there was plenty of pig ribs and ground turkey. We found some rib eyes, an apple wood smoked turkey tenderloin and plenty of fish. If you wanted anything fresh chicken or pork chops forget it. I figure that's why the parking lot was so full last evening. 

Everything else except rice and toilet paper was plentiful. Well, strawberries, grapes and that sort of stuff was all gone too. They were setting out meats and bird when we were leaving.


----------



## Poppy

Its been interesting in how varied the store's supplies are from one to another, not only from one store brand to another, but from one location to another with in the same brand.

A few days ago, my daughter placed a shopping order at a Shop Rite the next town over. I drove up tonight @ 5:30, pulled up to the front door and they loaded it into my trunk.

Although she ordered Coke, or a substitute, we got NONE. They didn't even have the cheap shop rite brand.
Chicken breasts... none.
Frozen pizza (especially California Pizza Kitchen, but substitutions allowed) None!
bleach, sanitizer, TP, paper towels, clorox wipes, NONE
This is a huge store. I very rarely shop there, it is confusing trying to find anything unless you are a regular. I didn't have to go in therefore I didn't.

On the way home, though I stopped at another supermarket. Stop and Shop, another very large chain store.
On a mission to get pizza, I skimmed through the store. Picked up 5 lbs of skinless boneless chicken breasts. There were a dozen or so packages available.
Plenty of beef, fish, etc.

Large bottles of Coke, $2 each. I think they are usually $1.39 not sure.

No bleach, or sanitizers, and the paper isle was barren.
They had some, but not many frozen pizza's but they were with pepperoni or BBQ or fancy like that.

________________________________

Oh what the heck I am already going to have to shower when I get home, let me try another Shop Rite on the way home.
Lot's of Pizzas most were of the specialty kind, but there were quite a few of three cheese styles.
I picked up five.
Some OJ, and coffee.

_________________________

It seems I have been going out once a week. I go early during Senior's hour. I am in and out of the store within 20 minutes.

Today, I discovered, that at 5:00 PM 6:00 PM, on Mother's Day, the stores are so empty of people, as I pulled up to the almost empty parking lot, I wondered if they closed early.


----------



## archimedes

Poppy said:


> Its been interesting in how varied the store's supplies are from one to another, not only from one store brand to another, but from one location to another with in the same brand....



Supply chain chaos. Expect that to continue, and worsen exponentially, the longer the situation continues.


----------



## Greta

I've been really surprised at how well and quickly our grocery stores here have gotten through the initial "surge" of hoard shopping and are now pretty well stocked at all times. No problems getting meat and other items I regularly purchase. I bought two 12/pks of TP on Amazon back in March (on top of two I had already bought back in February for normal shopping) and we still have one pack unopened. We're good. Only thing that seems to be a little more difficult to find these days is a case of Corona Seltzer. What with everyone hanging at home and doing shotgun videos for FaceBook, it seems to be in somewhat short supply. I have 2 cases in stock now but will have to go questing soon to make sure I don't run out. No... I do NOT do shotguns! That stuff will kill you!! :duh2::sick2:


----------



## idleprocess

Greta said:


> I've been really surprised at how well and quickly our grocery stores here have gotten through the initial "surge" of hoard shopping and are now pretty well stocked at all times.



Over a longer time period, demand is fairly constant thus the supply will catch up as the market sits on its glut of hoarded goods. Lesser whipsaw effects will likely be silently mitigated by retailers' distribution centers as supply and demand begin to coexist in relative proximity.


----------



## Kestrel

Grocery stores here in my area of Oregon have done really well. In Feb when I saw what happened in Italy, I really added to my stockpile here, incl. 3 lbs of bacon which gets me squared away w/ meat for 4 months or so. But aside from a couple days when they were out of TP (I confess to already having an obscene supply), our supply chain has been really smooth.


----------



## turbodog

Well MS opened up EAT IN restaurants this past week and barbers open tomorrow. Nice knowing y'all!


----------



## Dave D

I must admit that I'm somewhat shocked at just has much you guys over that side of the pond rely on take-away food!

Over here it's an occasional treat (like once a month or so) and since the lockdown it hasn't even entered my mind to try and get any take-away food, primarily because I have no clue as to the health conditions of the people preparing the food.

It will be nice to have a McD again, at sometime in the future though! :thumbsup:


----------



## bykfixer

Dave, I cannot speak for others but before this my household got take out/take away food only occasionally. Lately we have bought more for two reasons. First being to help the business remain open and second to keep our stored supply built up in case there is a major supply disruption. 

Right now the Rolling Stones song applies. You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes you get what you need.


----------



## Poppy

Greta said:


> I've been really surprised at how well and quickly our grocery stores here have gotten through the initial "surge" of hoard shopping and are now pretty well stocked at all times. No problems getting meat and other items I regularly purchase. I bought two 12/pks of TP on Amazon back in March (on top of two I had already bought back in February for normal shopping) and we still have one pack unopened. We're good. Only thing that seems to be a little more difficult to find these days is a case of Corona Seltzer. What with everyone hanging at home and doing shotgun videos for FaceBook, it seems to be in somewhat short supply. I have 2 cases in stock now but will have to go questing soon to make sure I don't run out. No... I do NOT do shotguns! That stuff will kill you!! :duh2::sick2:


Yes Greta,
I agree. Our stores recovered pretty quickly.
Fresh fruits and vegetables were consistently available.
Meats were up and down for a couple/few weeks (sometimes a they had more chicken than beef, or vise versa)
I think that fish was pretty much in good supply. Always there was frozen and fresh shrimp.
Pasta took a couple of weeks to recover
Frozen foods, varied from one store to another. Some were pretty barren, others were still pretty well stocked.
Breads only took a couple of days to recover, maybe a week.

However, since the hoarding began there are items that I have not seen on the shelves.

Alcohol
hand sanitizers
bleach 
TP (once or twice, I saw a few packages or 4-8 rolls on the shelf, or maybe some individual rolls) I left them for others, because fortunately I erred the last time I was at Costco and bought some, thinking that we were running low. This was just before the hoarding began.

Paper towels, Occasionally I saw some on the shelves, but they were sparsely stocked.
Disposable gloves.

I am honestly surprised that TP is still out of stock!


----------



## scout24

On the subject of TP and paper towels: Our shelves are still empty of name brand product. There are big cardboard boxes of paper wrapped single roll TP and single rolls of paper towels available though, similar to "institutional/ industrial/ school" supplies. Not sure what's up with that, but we were fairly well stocked on both prior to the virus. I'm doing my weekly grocery run today, should be interesting.


----------



## WarriorOfLight

Dave D said:


> I must admit that I'm somewhat shocked at just has much you guys over that side of the pond rely on take-away food!


Here on my place also. I prefer sitting in the restaurant.... but currently in Germany only take-away is allowed. I use now take-away to support my preferred restaurants. That is the only thing I can do at the moment, even if I an not a fan of take away since it produces a lot unnecessary trash.


----------



## idleprocess

scout24 said:


> On the subject of TP and paper towels: Our shelves are still empty of name brand product. There are big cardboard boxes of paper wrapped single roll TP and single rolls of paper towels available though, similar to "institutional/ industrial/ school" supplies. Not sure what's up with that, but we were fairly well stocked on both prior to the virus. I'm doing my weekly grocery run today, should be interesting.



Commercial use is way down since so many offices and stores are shut. I know more than a few people snagged giant ~12" rolls of commercial toilet paper when the retail supplies disappeared.


----------



## Poppy

scout24 said:


> On the subject of TP and paper towels: Our shelves are still empty of name brand product. There are big cardboard boxes of paper wrapped single roll TP and single rolls of paper towels available though, similar to "institutional/ industrial/ school" supplies. Not sure what's up with that, but we were fairly well stocked on both prior to the virus. I'm doing my weekly grocery run today, should be interesting.


Last week, I did a really quick run in the Home Depot to pick up some copper fittings, and they had a pallet of single rolls of TP at $1 each. I was glad to see that.
Here's to hoping that things open up in that department.

Who'd have thought that TP would be THE BARTER item to have on hand?


----------



## turbodog

Poppy said:


> Last week, I did a really quick run in the Home Depot to pick up some copper fittings, and they had a pallet of single rolls of TP at $1 each. I was glad to see that.
> Here's to hoping that things open up in that department.
> 
> Who'd have thought that TP would be THE BARTER item to have on hand?




? Really ? Every disaster I've been through has had TP, clean water, and gasoline at the top the needed supplies list.


----------



## Kestrel

Poppy said:


> Who'd have thought that TP would be THE BARTER item to have on hand?


Selco. :-/

The above link is a .PDF of the interview, but it is a legit file.
Pretty much Chapter #1 of a survivalist bible IMO.


----------



## knucklegary

Poppy said:


> Last week, I did a really quick run in the Home Depot to pick up some copper fittings, and they had a pallet of single rolls of TP at $1 each. I was glad to see that.
> Here's to hoping that things open up in that department.
> 
> Who'd have thought that TP would be THE BARTER item to have on hand?



Our local Depot here in NorCal has same commercial type single wrapped rolls, 1 buck each. Definitely not the Angel Soft I'm use to.. You can use this stuff for drywall taping /-;


----------



## StarHalo

- Your local health food store most likely has almost everything in stock; the more traffic a store has, the lower its inventory will be. 

- Anything you have an online store "subscription" for, you always have a rolling stockpile on hand, this especially includes toiletries. 

- If you keep an eye on online stores for specific harder-to-get items, you'll see they come in stock for very brief windows of time and it's first come first serve; you can "snipe" for these items as you would an Ebay auction, just make sure any single-click buy-now option is set up for that retailer, do not attempt to add it to your cart and come back for it later.


----------



## ven

knucklegary said:


> Our local Depot here in NorCal has same commercial type single wrapped rolls, 1 buck each. Definitely not the Angel Soft I'm use to.. You can use this stuff for drywall taping /-;





A minutes silence to pause and reflect in thought...........for Gary's poor bottom






:nana:


----------



## bykfixer

The thing I found hardest to source was thermometers. 
Found some but it sure did take some searching around. (While typing this 2 more arrived.)
I bought digital meat thermometers before I found some actual fever checker type. 

A place called Gabes near me has 12 packs of "4 ply household paper". They look like oversized rolls of cash register receipt paper but I suppose it would do. They had a big ole crate of it. That and lots of Clorox products that could be used as disinfectent in a spray bottle. They had all kinds of stuff like that. Lots of rice and other staples often missing at local grocery stores. It's a surplus clothing store so I figured they imported all of that stuff to be deemed essential. 

I left with a $5 pair of Carhartt jeans and a pair of Farm to Feet socks. But it was nice to know where there is a supply of things lacking at my local grocery store like Count Chocula, brown rice and whatever "household paper" is.

Edit: it dawned on me later that perhaps the stuff Gabes has it foods that would have gone to hotels or cruise ships. End edit.


----------



## SCEMan

Poppy said:


> I am honestly surprised that TP is still out of stock!



At the Costco in our area during senior hours there's aisles of TP packages. But disinfectant items are still in short supply.


----------



## ven

Pretty much says it all from Boris J's latest address


----------



## KITROBASKIN

Does (the real) Boris intentionally try to use the same speaking rhythm as Winston Churchill did?

We can hope that these times will create another "greatest generation" that was spawned by the hardships of the great depression and World War II?


----------



## PhotonWrangler

SCEMan said:


> At the Costco in our area during senior hours there's aisles of TP packages. But disinfectant items are still in short supply.




We found a bottle of hand sanitizer that was made by a repurposed distillery. It was in the alcoholic beverage section of the grocery store and at first glance looks like a bottle of booze. I know there are at least a few distilleries doing this.


----------



## Poppy

Kestrel,
That looks like an interesting read. I did a real quick look at it and will read it later after dinner, or first thing in the morning.

SCEMan,
This morning I was going to do the Senior hour shopping at Costco, but there was a chill in the air, and it started to rain. The last time I went to do the Senior thing, there was a line that must have started to form 30 minutes or more before the start time. So instead, I decided to go to a local chain pharmacy Walgreen's to see if they had any gloves. Well they did! I got 120 of those blue ones, and a quart bottle of hand sanitizer. They had no alcohol, nor bleach.

Since I was out, I decided to drive over to Costco to see what the line looked like and to my surprise there was none! I was on a mission for TP and paper towels.
I snagged a 12 roll package of Bounty towels, but no TP. I got a case of water, and two pack of large Folgers coffee, and 12 - 16 oz bottle of Vanilla extract, oh and a nice size bag of vidalia onions.

I'm ok for TP, but wanted to get extra to give to friends and family if they needed it.

While out, I am on a continual mission to get California Pizza Kitchen frozen pizza, (that is the only brand my one grandson will eat... he is on the spectrum, so it is a little challenging at times). Online Target stated... limited stock. Off I go.

They didn't have plain 3 cheese, they had Margarita or pepperoni and things like that.
They did however have limited stock of TP I snagged a 30 mega roll package of Charmin!
And a gallon of bleach.
And a Pur replacement water filter.


----------



## SCEMan

Poppy said:


> I snagged a 30 mega roll package of Charmin!
> And a gallon of bleach. And a Pur replacement water filter.



Congrats on the snags! That should keep you from being "wiped out" for a while :naughty:

We're fortunate our Costco has been pretty well-stocked and the wait times short. We have enough TP to not need to purchase any more and since our son-in-law works at Costco he keeps us updated on developments.


----------



## Poppy

SCEMan said:


> Congrats on the snags! That should keep you from being "wiped out" for a while :naughty:
> 
> We're fortunate our Costco has been pretty well-stocked and the wait times short. We have enough TP to not need to purchase any more and since our son-in-law works at Costco he keeps us updated on developments.


LOL... "wiped out" very funny! 

Oh man, that's a Power Move to have someone working on the inside. :thumbsup:
The hubby of one of my daughter's close friends works at the HD and she was able to buy a canister of Clorox disinfectant wipes from him. He can resupply when they are in stock.

We do the disinfect food packages before they are brought into the house routine, and they are handy for that.


----------



## RedLED

PhotonWrangler said:


> We found a bottle of hand sanitizer that was made by a repurposed distillery. It was in the alcoholic beverage section of the grocery store and at first glance looks like a bottle of booze. I know there are at least a few distilleries doing this.


Can't you just pour Jack Daniels in to a paper towel and get a hand sanitizer wipe?


----------



## RedLED

Today I went to Costco, and bought prime steaks, and Cotton Candy Grapes. What wonderful grapes! I'm living on prime steaks and In n Out cheeseburgers these days.


----------



## Poppy

RedLED said:


> Today I went to Costco, and bought prime steaks, and Cotton Candy Grapes. What wonderful grapes! I'm living on prime steaks and In n Out cheeseburgers these days.


Hey Red,
You have to post some pictures here or it didn't happen.
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/v...r-and-Bread-and-Sandwiches-Oh-My!-(II)/page84

Re: Jack Daniels, I think the alcohol content has to be 70% to be effective, isn't Jack about 45%?


----------



## Tejasandre

Poppy said:


> ...
> Re: Jack Daniels, I think the alcohol content has to be 70% to be effective, isn't Jack about 45%?



You just drink it till you don’t care.


----------



## RedLED

Tejasandre said:


> You just drink it till you don’t care.


Dude, I was just thinking out loud. But I do wish Jack Daniels came in a keg, at least for CV-19!


----------



## ven

KITROBASKIN said:


> Does (the real) Boris intentionally try to use the same speaking rhythm as Winston Churchill did?
> ?



Not too sure but he sure sounds similar!


----------



## Dave D

KITROBASKIN said:


> Does (the real) Boris intentionally try to use the same speaking rhythm as Winston Churchill did?
> 
> We can hope that these times will create another "greatest generation" that was spawned by the hardships of the great depression and World War II?



Churchill was his hero, I think that he believes that he is as good a leader, unfortunately he pales into insignificance in comparison!







Available from all good book stores.


----------



## Poppy

Kestrel said:


> Selco. :-/
> 
> The above link is a .PDF of the interview, but it is a legit file.
> Pretty much Chapter #1 of a survivalist bible IMO.


Kestrel,
That was a good read.

I then went to his site and it looks interesting, but not $250 interesting.

Another very good read, and it is free is Sub_Umbra survival notes during Hurricane Katrina
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?121453-An-Emergency-Water-Epiphany

He also makes a number of comments in the Power outage thread.
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/v...mens-How-many-batteries-(for-lights-and-more)


----------



## Poppy

RedLED said:


> Dude, I was just thinking out loud. But I do wish Jack Daniels came in a keg, at least for CV-19!


LOL... I was thinking about extending the joke, and went to their site to get pictures of barrels, and found that one actually CAN BUY a barrel!

https://www.jackdaniels.com/en-us/whiskey/single-barrel/personal-collection

You may have to enter your birthdate to see the above link.

Have fun.
Poppy


----------



## lion504

Rules for social distancing, based on science:

Beach access in NJ 
- Permitted: running, walking, exercising, surfing, fishing
- Prohibited: sunbathing, sitting, standing (unless fishing)

Power boating in MI - Prohibited
Power boating in IL - Permitted (but no more than 2 people, regardless of boat size)

CA park access
- Permitted: sitting or sunbathing, with at least 6' social distancing
- Prohibited: standing, with 75’ social distancing (while playing tennis)


----------



## StarHalo

lion504 said:


> Rules for social distancing, based on science:
> 
> Power boating in MI - Prohibited
> Power boating in IL - Permitted (but no more than 2 people, regardless of boat size)



No national response = no national guidelines; no one will remember the power boat regulations later this year when your county has only one voting location. And if you don't trust scientific "experts" to provide scientific conclusions, then you get conclusions from a committee or politician.


----------



## StarHalo

Anti-stay at home protestors at a Subway in downtown Raleigh, NC:


----------



## bykfixer

lion504 said:


> Rules for social distancing, based on science:
> 
> Beach access in NJ
> - Permitted: running, walking, exercising, surfing, fishing
> - Prohibited: sunbathing, sitting, standing (unless fishing)
> 
> Power boating in MI - Prohibited
> Power boating in IL - Permitted (but no more than 2 people, regardless of boat size)
> 
> CA park access
> - Permitted: sitting or sunbathing, with at least 6' social distancing
> - Prohibited: standing, with 75’ social distancing (while playing tennis)



Each governor was given the responsibility to decide what is prudent to those particular states instead of a one size fits all central government approach. Otherwise Mannhatten would dictate how Oklahoma rules apply as well. 

The bizzare sets of guidelines indicate how a particular governor has applied the rules to his or her state. Science applied? 
Hard to say without researching each states decision(s). On the surface it does appear bizarre. But is it really? 

I think history will shows those most concerned about a single "grandpa" are those with stable incomes and the ability to come and go as they please. Those who say screw this, let's reopen everything are folks being hurt by the stay at home directives. 

My boss asked "how come corona virus don't infect Wal Mart but does infect my favorite shoe store?"

There has to be an measured reopening with each state deciding how to proceed. Otherwise the cure will kill more than the disease did. Should Utah and New York reopen under a one size fits all national set of guidelines? Alaska and New Jersey? Right now there is a set of national guidelines in place. 
1) Stay 6' apart
2) Don't go to work sick. Self isolate if you are sick. 
3) A 3 phase process of reopening with guidelines to each step. 
The rest is up to communities, and states with assistance from Uncle Sam.


Meanwhile my property taxes and state taxes are due Friday whether I have a job or not. The stimulous check for many paid the rent for one month. What about the next one(s)? How about car payments, auto insurance, electricity, food, and insurance etc?


----------



## P_A_S_1

Lol, lugging around a BMG and AR, looks ridiculous but it's good exercise.


----------



## lion504

StarHalo said:


> And if you don't trust scientific "experts" to provide scientific conclusions, then you get conclusions from a committee or politician.



I thought I could have my cake and eat it too! 😀


----------



## idleprocess

P_A_S_1 said:


> Lol, lugging around a BMG and AR, looks ridiculous but it's good exercise.



A BMG _replica_, primarily made of wood.


----------



## lion504

Looking everywhere, but can’t find any AT-4s here. Everyone’s out of stock...

Some stores have LAWs (check the expiration date!) and the odd RPG, but I’m holding out for the good stuff.


----------



## bigburly912

lion504 said:


> Looking everywhere, but can’t find any AT-4s here. Everyone’s out of stock...
> 
> Some stores have LAWs and the odd RPG, but I’m holding out for the good stuff.



We hoarded all the AT-4s when were heard there was a pandemic. I have them in my buried 20’ conex building along with all the angel soft. I’m big and burly but I’m sensitive


----------



## lion504

Not cool burly, not cool...


----------



## P_A_S_1

idleprocess said:


> A BMG _replica_, primarily made of wood.



Well then that’s cheating.... girly man.


----------



## lion504




----------



## bigburly912

idleprocess said:


> A BMG _replica_, primarily made of wood.



You aren’t supposed to point that out.


----------



## Greta

So today is an exciting (NOT!) day in our house! It is Honey's 59th birthday and guess what he got first thing this morning? TESTED!! :duh2::ironic:

Yup - Honey works at the Orange store and came home the other day not feeling well... minor body aches, little bit of weakness, minor GI issues. Overall just kinda blah. No fever, no respiratory issues, no loss of taste or smell. At any other time, we would chalk it off as a "normal" bug going around, stay home and hydrate and rest and carry on. But nope! Not now. So he called the local VA clinic yesterday and they set up an appointment for him this morning to test him out in the parking lot. He said it all went well and we'll have results in 3-5 days.

I ran out quick to get him a birthday cake and the fixin's for his favorite dinner. And now... we are in quarantine until the test results come back. 

The worst part though? Our favorite watering hole is opening back up tomorrow. And we won't be able to go. The Powers That Be sure have a sick sense of humor... :shakehead:ironic:


----------



## idleprocess

bigburly912 said:


> You aren’t supposed to point that out.



Had it not been so obvious _(knotholes are readily apparent even in the low-res versions)_...


----------



## bigburly912

idleprocess said:


> Had it not been so obvious _(knotholes are readily apparent even in the low-res versions)_...



Those are tactical port holes.


----------



## ven

Sorry to read Greta, hope Honey can still manage to have a good day and soon feeling better.

Speedy recovery for Honey


----------



## knucklegary

bigburly912 said:


> We hoarded all the AT-4s when were heard there was a pandemic. I have them in my buried 20’ conex building along with all the angel soft. I’m big and burly but I’m sensitive


----------



## knucklegary

Praying all goes well with VA testing 🙏


----------



## Greta

knucklegary said:


> Praying all goes well with VA testing 



Funny thing about this - seeing as many worry the tests are being done right - the girl who did Honey's test told him "if your eyes didn't water and you didn't gag, I didn't do it right". He assured her she did it right... as he wiped his eyes...


----------



## P_A_S_1

bigburly912 said:


> We hoarded all the AT-4s when were heard there was a pandemic. I have them in my buried 20’ conex building along with all the angel soft. I’m big and burly but I’m sensitive



Hope you got the real deal... there are some wood ones floating around [emoji43]


----------



## bigburly912

Good luck to you and yours Greta!!


----------



## Poppy

Greta said:


> So today is an exciting (NOT!) day in our house! It is Honey's 59th birthday and guess what he got first thing this morning? TESTED!! :duh2::ironic:
> 
> Yup - Honey works at the Orange store and came home the other day not feeling well... minor body aches, little bit of weakness, minor GI issues. Overall just kinda blah. No fever, no respiratory issues, no loss of taste or smell. At any other time, we would chalk it off as a "normal" bug going around, stay home and hydrate and rest and carry on. <snip>



Greta, 
I'm sorry to hear that he is symptomatic, at this time it is stressful.

To give you some hope.
The stats in NJ are that about 2/3rd of those tested were NEGATIVE to covid. 
Most of those, almost all, had to have a doctor's prescription to get the test, and the prescription wasn't written, unless you had a fever, and challenged breathing. So these people were more symptomatic than hubby.

Only this past week, were people allowed to be tested without a doctor's prescription.

I hope his symptoms resolve quickly, and he builds antibodies to whatever.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

We aren't doing too bad here where I am. I was almost out of TP and I usually buy the big box of it (POM) at Sam's Club but when I was down to just a few rolls the virus hit and Sam's had no TP or any other store till about 2 weeks ago I got some at a local store as WM and Sams were still out as were most of the other stores. WM finally got TP a week after I bought some and last week I scored a big box at Sam's they had a dozen boxes of it but not a huge amount. Other food has varied widely all over the place here with the cheaper soup slots in stores mostly empty including the 12 pack of ramen noodles which shot up about 30 cents due to the virus. I got a hair cut Tuesday of last week as my hair was reaching my shoulders and they finally reopened the last Friday of April and this coming Friday more is opening we are going to stage 2 (of 3) if things don't go south on us. As I seem to be immune to the flu (haven't had it for over 20 years now) I haven't worried about this batch of it working an essential job till I got pushed out of one by another job site shutting down for some reason (nobody at the site I was working at got the virus that I know of) 
I'm getting tired of waiting in line to go in stores for 15 minutes it makes a shopping trip that used to take a few hours take half a day and many stores I have to wait at end up being empty of what I am looking for. 
Gas here at Sam's club dropped to 95 cents a gallon now back to 114 cents a gallon. As I live alone and I was working alone I've been social distancing by default anyway so all of this stuff is not a huge deal.
Who is the idiot that came up with the phrase "social distancing" anyway? Isn't it an oxymoron? I call it social isolating or snobbing myself. 
When people get near me I tell them to be careful they could get my cooties


----------



## P_A_S_1

I find people are too extreme. They either run away dosing themselves with hand sanitizer if you get too close or they want to be shoulder to shoulder. Shopping and taking the elevator is always interesting.


----------



## coffeecup66

.
... but what do the A U T O P S I E S say ?
(Sorry, quite interesting but can seem a bit long-ish: 13 minutes)



NB: Published (YT) on 6 May 2020.


----------



## PhotonWrangler

Greta said:


> Funny thing about this - seeing as many worry the tests are being done right - the girl who did Honey's test told him "if your eyes didn't water and you didn't gag, I didn't do it right". He assured her she did it right... as he wiped his eyes...




Greta, I'm sorry to hear about this. I hope it's not Covid and if is,k I hope it's not severe and that you don't get it also. This might be a good time to pick up a pulse oximeter if you don't have one already. It can tell you if respiration is strating to go south before it gets really bad.


----------



## Poppy

coffeecup66 said:


> .
> ... but what do the A U T O P S I E S say ?
> (Sorry, quite interesting but can seem a bit long-ish: 13 minutes)
> 
> 
> 
> NB: Published (YT) on 6 May 2020.




Very informative cc66. Thanks!

Oh BTW... for anyone who is a bit squeamish, this is about the most gross picture in the video. It does NOT show images of autopsies being performed.


----------



## bykfixer

Lynx; are the case numbers spiking in ole Oklahoma? You say phase 2 soon. 

Greta; best regards (fingers crossed). Perhaps a couple of snorts of Bicardi 151 will ward off the invisible enemy.

Couldn't make it through the video. It had me paranoid in the first 2 minutes. Like my heartburn, ingrown toenails and ear hair are caused by the novel corona virus and by the time I finish typing this I'll have epilepsy, chronic kidney disease, both kinds of diabetes and die of sudden infant death syndrome. 
No wonder nobody is dieing of anything but covid-19 since February 2020. Sheesh.


----------



## Poppy

bykfixer said:


> Couldn't make it through the video. It had me paranoid in the first 2 minutes. Like my heartburn, ingrown toenails and ear hair are caused by the novel corona virus and by the time I finish typing this I'll have epilepsy, chronic kidney disease, both kinds of diabetes and die of sudden infant death syndrome.
> No wonder nobody is dieing of anything but covid-19 since February 2020. Sheesh.


I'm not clear, are you trying to be funny, or to cast doubt on the veracity of the information presented in the video?

I thought it was intelligently presented with information depicting how challenging this virus is and and how and why it can affect so many different organs and systems in the body.


----------



## KITROBASKIN

Poppy said:


> I'm not clear, are you trying to be funny, or to cast doubt on the veracity of the information presented in the video?
> 
> I thought it was intelligently presented with information depicting how challenging this virus is and and how and why it can affect so many different organs and systems in the body.



Fixer is, I believe, practicing an excellent strategy for dealing with the situation. While having some levity and clever wit, he is giving the point that it may not be such a good idea to get involved in too much scrutiny regarding the pathology of this threat. Humans are very prone to suggestion, some more than others. Witness what happens when one person yawns in a group of people. I mostly listened to the video while researching several articles discussing the positive and necessary effects of viruses on animals and plants. Looking at the imagery in the video is not helpful to me personally. Hearing the many detailed ways this virus is a problem is not my thing, but of course others welcome such a monologue. The lower right corner of the video image was plastered with "Subscribe Now" and then at the end were further self promotional click bait types of inducements to see more of this fellow, who one can assume has not had his videos peer reviewed. So yes, fixer has a valid perspective on this I think.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

bykfixer said:


> Lynx; are the case numbers spiking in ole Oklahoma? You say phase 2 soon.
> 
> Greta; best regards (fingers crossed). Perhaps a couple of snorts of Bicardi 151 will ward off the invisible enemy.
> 
> Couldn't make it through the video. It had me paranoid in the first 2 minutes. Like my heartburn, ingrown toenails and ear hair are caused by the novel corona virus and by the time I finish typing this I'll have epilepsy, chronic kidney disease, both kinds of diabetes and die of sudden infant death syndrome.
> No wonder nobody is dieing of anything but covid-19 since February 2020. Sheesh.



Nope they are flat and in Tulsa they are slowly rising but hospitals are well able to keep up right now. We have a lot of businesses open already but there is SD going on in all of them and restrictive occupancy limits that make shopping often a waiting game in smaller stores.
I think they are going to have most things open even limited athletic events. I don't see things anywhere near back to normal till probably fall here. I just hope that I get work before the extra government unemployment assistance runs out and don't again get laid off due to a job site flareup as they can shut down a job site if only 1 person gets the virus there for 2 weeks (and have done so) even though most of the time we are already distanced from each other. In the summer having to work in 90 degree heat with a mask on is not going to be easy at all.


----------



## raggie33

My county was on the national news as a covid 19 hot spot. These rednecks down here are going to kill us all there all playing some kind of lotto machine shoulder to shouder no mask. I ran out of food today and im afraid to go to store to get more


----------



## StarHalo

raggie33 said:


> My county was on the national news as a covid 19 hot spot. These rednecks down here are going to kill us all there all playing some kind of lotto machine shoulder to shouder no mask. I ran out of food today and im afraid to go to store to get more



Don't forget grocery delivery/ Instacart, and ordering groceries through the mail from the box stores and online places. There are no lines for the prepared; I went to the grocery store once this month to get my kid a birthday cake..


----------



## Lynx_Arc

raggie33 said:


> My county was on the national news as a covid 19 hot spot. These rednecks down here are going to kill us all there all playing some kind of lotto machine shoulder to shouder no mask. I ran out of food today and im afraid to go to store to get more



Some stores have curbside pickup you can call and tell them everything you want and they will deliver it to you near your car. Not sure about how you pay for it probably credit card or something have to check that part out.


----------



## bykfixer

Well put KB. Exactly my point. By the 1:30 mark I thought I had a fever. 

My boss Lynx is on a giant bridge project with hundreds of workers outdoors welding, pouring concrete etc was shut down because an office dweller who never went out to the site tested positive. Three days of investigation led them to reopen the project after it was determined the guy had not come in contact with workers in the field. Now my boss goes in and out of the same office as covid-boy so she was sent home for 14 days. 

Apparently covid-boy showed up 3 days in a row with a fever. It seems once he is over the illness he may lose his job for continuing to work knowing he was sick. We fill out a form everyday stating we are fit for duty and required to stay home and get tested if we have the top 3 symptoms of fever, unusual cough and trouble breathing. It seems he had all three and was so ill someone told him to "gethehell outta here". Knucklehead.


----------



## KITROBASKIN

Substantial evidence exists for the effectiveness of humor as a coping mechanism. Studies involving combat veterans (Hendin & Haas, 1984), cancer patients (Carver, 1993), and surgical patients (Culver et al., 2002) have found that when humor is used to reduce the threatening nature of stressful situations, it is associated with resilience and the capacity to tolerate stress (Martin, 2003).

From:* How To Be Resilient: 5 Secrets To Mental Toughness (Pandemic Edition*)

https://www.bakadesuyo.com/2020/04/be-resilient/

Also from the fellow who puts out "Barking Up The Wrong Tree" (OVER 300,000 people are on his email list) {_attempt at humor}_

*A Special Forces Officer Teaches You 5 Secrets To Overcoming Adversity*

https://www.bakadesuyo.com/2015/03/overcoming-adversity/


----------



## lion504

Cautiously optimistic article from Axios, and a different perspective than the official Washington DC line: “The big surge is (always) 2 weeks away! The peak is (always) next month!”


----------



## raggie33

Ps sorry for saying rednecks i should not use offensive words to describe anyone i was just angry. Its so bad here as i said this county was on the national news. For real you get mocked her for wearing a mask


----------



## Lynx_Arc

bykfixer said:


> Well put KB. Exactly my point. By the 1:30 mark I thought I had a fever.
> 
> My boss Lynx is on a giant bridge project with hundreds of workers outdoors welding, pouring concrete etc was shut down because an office dweller who never went out to the site tested positive. Three days of investigation led them to reopen the project after it was determined the guy had not come in contact with workers in the field. Now my boss goes in and out of the same office as covid-boy so she was sent home for 14 days.
> 
> Apparently covid-boy showed up 3 days in a row with a fever. It seems once he is over the illness he may lose his job for continuing to work knowing he was sick. We fill out a form everyday stating we are fit for duty and required to stay home and get tested if we have the top 3 symptoms of fever, unusual cough and trouble breathing. It seems he had all three and was so ill someone told him to "gethehell outta here". Knucklehead.


I was told about a job site where someone lied about having the virus and it was shut down for 2 weeks. I had to tell people I didn't have the virus when we got the jobsite "speech" and I was dealing with allergies having me cough some but a large supply of hard candy and cough drops fixed that for the most part. I'm still taking my temp every day and it hasn't been but normal since this all started.


----------



## scout24

Raggie- Hang in there. I'd rather be mocked for mask and gloves than trying to accessorize to see what goes with a hospital gown and or ventilator. And those cool slippers. Haters gonna hate. Stay safe.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

I heard on the news that we only have 300 people in hospitals statewide with the virus now and today no deaths at all.


----------



## bykfixer

Those tornadoes sucked up all the corona and spewed it over Gretas county Lynx? 

Yeah Raggae, screw if people mock you for wearing a mask. 

KB, laughter got me through a divorce with my sanity nearly intact.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

bykfixer said:


> Those tornadoes sucked up all the corona and spewed it over Gretas county Lynx?


She probably got a flock of seagulls fly over and bomb her from California instead


----------



## Greta

Lynx_Arc said:


> She probably got a flock of seagulls fly over and bomb her from California instead



Worse than that - This is what we've been dealing with for the last 4 weekends.... Stir-crazy Californians descending on Lake Havasu in big numbers

Here are our current County numbers:


----------



## jkqubrrppmwyuslhck

Greta said:


> Worse than that - This is what we've been dealing with for the last 4 weekends.... Stir-crazy Californians descending on Lake Havasu in big numbers
> 
> Here are our current County numbers:




That's crazy. Have you looked at the trend by chance? Arizona as a whole seems to have trended upwards. I'm not sure if it's a result of more testing or, like you said, people getting crazy and just going out regardless of the instruction.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Greta said:


> Worse than that - This is what we've been dealing with for the last 4 weekends.... Stir-crazy Californians descending on Lake Havasu in big numbers
> 
> Here are our current County numbers:


We haven't had that issue with lakes that I know of we have so many lakes only Minnesota has more than we do.
I guess as long as they SD on the individual boats it is ok, but who knows as people are starting to get stir crazy everywhere.
I am glad we are reopening more here as I think there is no way to completely stop the virus from getting the majority of us that cannot quarantine ourselves forever at home. Our mayor is happy that things are going better than he expected he was reluctant to open up as much as we have open but realized the surrounding cities/counties were all going to open up so he was sort of forced to do so. Our governor says we may gain business from California companies very upset over the shutdown there they may move here.


----------



## Greta

jkqubrrppmwyuslhck said:


> That's crazy. Have you looked at the trend by chance? Arizona as a whole seems to have trended upwards. I'm not sure if it's a result of more testing or, like you said, people getting crazy and just going out regardless of the instruction.



We have definitely had more testing. The county has been doing "test blitzing" (blitz testing??) for the past couple weekends. One Saturday in one city, the next Saturday in another, and so on. They set up drive-thru areas and it's an assembly line thing in a parking lot. Pretty creative, in my opinion! I believe that's why we've seen a slight uptick in our county. To be honest, I haven't really been following the stats of the rest of the state. 

Our problem is we are located right on the Colorado River. I can see California out my back door. Needles, CA is only 30 miles away. It's only a 5 hour drive to Los Angeles. AND... we are considered a "tourist town" :ironic:


----------



## Poppy

Regarding the doctor in the video posted by coffeecup66 in post #496 
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/v...ronavirus-II&p=5389959&viewfull=1#post5389959

Dr. Michael Hansen is a practicing Board Certified physician, certified in Internal Medicine, Pulmonology, and Critical Care Medicine.
https://www.porterhealth.com/find-a-doctor/hansen-michael-md-124685

In his video he explains where there are receptors that the Covid-19 virus can attack in specific organs and locations. While never mentioning children, and multi-system inflammation, he gives more information than one is likely to see on a TV interview.

More and more we are hearing of what is being termed: 
*Pediatric Multi-system inflammation syndrome.*

NEW YORK (WABC) -- Cases of what appears to be a rare COVID-19-related illness in children continue to rise across the Tri-State area and the nation.

In New York state, Gov. Andrew Cuomo said Wednesday that the Department of Health is now investigating 102 cases of what experts are calling Pediatric Multi-System Inflammatory Syndrome (PMIS).[FONT=&quot] more...[/FONT]


----------



## bigburly912

raggie33 said:


> Ps sorry for saying rednecks i should not use offensive words to describe anyone i was just angry. Its so bad here as i said this county was on the national news. For real you get mocked her for wearing a mask



If I’m not offended by that term then nobody else on here should be. Appalachian mountain bred and born. (My parents aren’t cousins)


----------



## P_A_S_1

Poppy said:


> NEW YORK (WABC) -- Cases of what appears to be a rare COVID-19-related illness in children continue to rise across the Tri-State area and the nation.



A five year old went into cardiac arrest after being sick a few days in queens.


----------



## Poppy

P_A_S_1 said:


> A five year old went into cardiac arrest after being sick a few days in queens.


Yeah, so sad. I don't know if we are speaking of the same child, but there was one, where the brother was a boy scout and did CPR and saved the child's life.

This is no longer just an old man's disease.

I hope that many more of us have been exposed and created antibodies without knowing it. AND that they offer a lasting immunity.


----------



## bykfixer

Enjoyed the reads in post 507 KB. Thanks. 

Ralph says phase 1 is a go Friday BB. All but the northern part near DC where things are still pretty unstable. The mayor of Richmond says he is going to ask the Ralph if he'll extend it in Richmond. I thought "uh Stoney, that's something you can do bro". 

We'll see how it goes. But a lot of men looking like sheep dogs are estactic about barber shops reopening. Appointment only with barbers/stylists wearing face shield with customers wearing masks. 







So glad I learned the art of self-grooming decades ago. 

I do look forward to helping a re-opened hobby shop make rent this weekend. Then a shoe store.


----------



## Poppy

bykfixer said:


> Enjoyed the reads in post 507 KB. Thanks.
> 
> Ralph says phase 1 is a go Friday BB. All but the northern part near DC where things are still pretty unstable. The mayor of Richmond says he is going to ask the Ralph if he'll extend it in Richmond. I thought "uh Stoney, that's something you can do bro".
> 
> 
> We'll see how it goes. But a lot of men looking like sheep dogs are estactic about barber shops reopening. Appointment only with barbers/stylists wearing face shield with customers wearing masks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So glad I learned the art of self-grooming decades ago.
> 
> I do look forward to helping a re-opened hobby shop make rent this weekend. Then a shoe store.


This is hilarious! ROTFL ! 


I don't know what this is.


> Ralph says phase 1 is a go Friday BB. All but the northern part near DC where things are still pretty unstable. The mayor of Richmond says he is going to ask the Ralph if he'll extend it in Richmond. I thought "uh Stoney, that's something you can do bro".


I guess Ralph is the VA governor, but what is BB? And Stoney, is the mayor?


----------



## bigburly912

I’m the BB


----------



## RedLED

Why do we hear so much about hair stylists and restaurants? There are many, many, many areas of business, however, these are the two we hear about. I can understand the restaurants, and believe me no one wants them back more than myself. I love eating out, and we have been supporting our local places with take away service since this thing began. 

It seems every day we hear about hair stylists, I can live without a haircut, no problem, but what about all the other occupations we Don't hear about? To me, a haircut is not worth getting sick with this thing...at all. Nothing against the hair stylists and barbers but why do we hear so much about this area of business? 

Just wondering?


Three groups of people you want to be very nice to are:

People who prepare your food

People who do your hair

Your Doctor 


That's all for now.

Best,

RL


----------



## Poppy

bigburly912 said:


> I’m the BB


When did we stop using names in our posts?

It always drove me a little nuts when a person would write a 2,000 character post, and then use two letters for something obscure. 
For example BB store. Would it take too many key strokes to write big box?


----------



## knucklegary

I've been called many names in my lifetime, but "Knucklegary" is one nickname that stuck

At one time i ran with a crowd that rode motorcycles

There were three Garys in this group (gang)

When referring to which Gary was being talked about, our first names were added to the style H-D motor we rode

I rode a 1947 Harley Knucklehead

There was also PanGary and ShovelGary 

This made it easy within the group, plus not giving up last names to the wrong person was a given

Yours Truly,
Knucklegary


----------



## Poppy

RedLED said:


> Why do we hear so much about hair stylists and restaurants? There are many, many, many areas of business, however, these are the two we hear about. I can understand the restaurants, and believe me no one wants them back more than myself. I love eating out, and we have been supporting our local places with take away service since this thing began.
> 
> It seems every day we hear about hair stylists, I can live without a haircut, no problem, but what about all the other occupations we Don't hear about? To me, a haircut is not worth getting sick with this thing...at all. Nothing against the hair stylists and barbers but why do we hear so much about this area of business?
> 
> Just wondering?
> 
> 
> Three groups of people you want to be very nice to are:
> 
> People who prepare your food
> 
> People who do your hair
> 
> Your Doctor
> 
> 
> That's all for now.
> 
> Best,
> 
> RL


My dad always said... "you know the difference between a good haircut, and a bad haircut? .... About two weeks!" LOL
All my life he and his brother cut each other's hair. His brother typically got the better part of the deal.

When in high school the Farrah Fawcett "shag" hair style was in vogue.
My unisex styler told me that I could clean around the ears and get an extra few weeks before coming in for another cut.

It's no big deal, in fact it take more work to keep a beard nicely trimmed.

Now... I'm about 7 weeks into my last cut, I'll get my daughter to cut the hair at the back of my head that I can't see with the clippers. Yeah it is starting to grow over my collar.

It is kind of interesting to see people becoming more gray as weeks go on. Some continue to color their hair or have someone do it.

Regarding taking care of the people who prepare your food.
I do most of the cooking. So (smiling) I hope they take care of me. 
We do however order take out from a local restaurant (Italian Pizza and restaurant)
We are comfortable, because we know that it is a family business, and only family works there. There are other similar places that have employees who are young, and most likely socializing. Coke up the nose, etc. We want no part of that.

Take care of your doctor.
Fortunately for me, my doctor is one of my best friends, and he is about 20 years younger than me, so he is more currently trained, in his field. I am fortunate enough that during 9/11 I bought a number of respirator masks, and was able to give him one. He refused at first, but accepted it when I explained that he would have a greater need than I. And that I still would have three others, and that only the care-taker would need one if one of us got sick.

Should the SHTF he and his family, and my family (including brothers and sisters) will be the core of our survival group.


----------



## Poppy

knucklegary said:


> I've been called many names in my lifetime, but "Knucklegary" is one nickname that stuck
> 
> <snip>


LOL... KnuckleGary is much better than Knuckle head. ;-)

Be well, and safe!


----------



## StarHalo

Poppy said:


> we know that it is a family business, and only family works there. There are other similar places that have employees who are young, and most likely socializing. Coke up the nose, etc.



Well that escalated quickly..


----------



## Poppy

StarHalo said:


> Well that escalated quickly..


I don't understand. What do you mean?


----------



## StarHalo

Poppy said:


> I don't understand. What do you mean?



That's good to support local family businesses, but how you got from there to calling franchised employees coke users is a bit of a twist..


----------



## Poppy

StarHalo said:


> That's good to support local family businesses, but how you got from there to calling franchised employees coke users is a bit of a twist..


Once again, you don't know what you are talking about.
And you are twisting words, buy adding your own.

I am really tired of dealing with you!

I never said they were franchised.
In fact there are none in my town that are franchised.

Although we have a large population, in many respects we are a small town/community. You are very naive to think that people do not know people.
Just take it as fact that there are some places...



OK... so I took a look at the post that you commented on, and I can see that you are referring to the fast food franchises. NOT the local businesses. Although fast food is a local business.

I have bought from a Taco Bell once in the last 7 weeks. I brought it home and microwaved it for 30 seconds before taking it out of the bag.
I have not bought Burger King, McDonalds, or Wendys in that time, despite the fact that my grand kids essentially live on that crap, IMO. WHY? Because I do not know who is handling my food, or where they have been for the last three days, or if they came to work sick because they needed the paycheck. 

If the fast food establishments can't prove to me that despite the social behaviors of their employees, or the environments that their employees live in are covid-19 safe; that they have procedures in place that will protect the quality and safety of my food. I will not purchase from them.


----------



## Greta

RedLED said:


> Why do we hear so much about hair stylists and restaurants?



It's called "First World Problems"... :ironic:


----------



## Greta

Poppy said:


> Although we have a large population, in many respects we are a small town/community. You are very naive to think that people do not know people.
> Just take it as fact that there are some places...



Poppy is quite accurate with his assessment - more than even he probably knows. 

My husband retired from the military then retired from law enforcement. With all kinds of extra time on his hands and still being fairly young, he went and got a culinary degree to pursue his dream of being a chef. He put in applications at a few of the franchises, but mostly at the local "mom and pop" restaurants. He even put in apps at a couple of nursing homes. He did have a bit of an advantage which places would be better because as a police officer, he knew which ones were dealing out the back door and which ones hadn't got caught yet. Several places told him flat out "Nope! Don't need an ex-cop in our kitchen." Yes, they were that honest. Oddly, he got hired by a nursing home. After several months there, he quit. Cuz the head chef was not only dealing out the back door but was also partaking... while working. He quit because "I'm not a cop anymore. But it doesn't mean I wanna be around that." Fast forward to several other places he was hired and the same exact thing was going on. Two of the places were major resorts in town. One was a family operated place - the owner was stoned at all times and had a storage truck in the parking lot where he took breaks to get high several times a shift. Talking to other people in town who had left the restaurant industry for other pursuits, they all have the same stories. That's just the way it is.

He's sad that he isn't cooking anymore - he really was good at it and loved it. But he has moved on - working for Home Depot now and NO ONE shows up under the influence and NO ONE is dealing out the back door or taking a break to get high. He's happy...


----------



## StarHalo

I'll take your word for it, not a lot of warehouse floor grunts working ten hour shifts with the time or money for using on the job.

In other news: it was a good day to just sit and contemplate a tree..


----------



## knucklegary

I did find a roach once in my Pasole passing through AZ stopped at a restaurant outside Ft Hauchuca

I wasn't sure if it was an added bonus surprise meat, but you are correct Greta our waitress reeked of weed


----------



## nbp

RedLed:

Also, personal care businesses like salons are one of the few industries that had absolutely no recourse with the social distancing requirements. You can’t get a “take out” or “curbside pickup” or “work from home” haircut and no one can claim it is “essential” and must remain open like so many other stores and manufacturers and suppliers can, so that industry has been absolutely decimated. There was just no creative way for them to get around the situation.


----------



## Dave D

Greta said:


> Yup - Honey works at the Orange store and came home the other day not feeling well... minor body aches, little bit of weakness, minor GI issues. Overall just kinda blah. No fever, no respiratory issues, no loss of taste or smell. At any other time, we would chalk it off as a "normal" bug going around, stay home and hydrate and rest and carry on. But nope! Not now. So he called the local VA clinic yesterday and they set up an appointment for him this morning to test him out in the parking lot. He said it all went well and we'll have results in 3-5 days.
> 
> I ran out quick to get him a birthday cake and the fixin's for his favorite dinner. And now... we are in quarantine until the test results come back.



Wishing him a full and speedy recover and fingers crossed that you don't get is as well. :thumbsup:


----------



## RedLED

nbp, 

I see that, however, there a hundred other businesses, and occupations that fall under that same guideline, yet we do not hear about them. Just hairdressers and barbers. Everyday, hairdressers and barbers. It makes me want to shave my head at this point.

And, I tip 100 %.


----------



## bykfixer

Hey red, 
Rent the movie "barber shop" sometime. It's such a staple of socialization in a given community. 

Poppy, 
The Ralph is a nickname my governors friends called him in college on those occasions he had too much beer. "Ralph's doing the Ralph again" they'd say. 
Stoney is mayor of the capital city Lavar Stoney who tends to go against the grain about nearly everything and is like a stone wall to convince him otherwise. BB (bigburley) is too far west to probably hear much about the mayor unless he has gone and done something else to make the headlines on the half hour. That refers to radio station having a news flash on the half hours. 

I hear news snipets on the radio and when I have spare time I search the internet to see what really happened. If you read news that spins clockwise (right), and news that spins counterclockwise (left) you start to see common facts. Or you notice details overlooked by one side or the other and the facts puzzle starts coming together nicely. 

It's how I knew about the novel corona virus before any cases were reported in the US. One day a news flash "corona virus in Washington nursing home". I did some research and holy heart attack, it was ravaging south Korea, the Phillipines, Italy and other nations while American politicians were saying "nothing to fear here". The city of Wuhan and others had been ravaged yet the west kept dismissing it as if there was some kind of anti virus beam over its cities. 

Now when I hear "mayor of X opening casinos tomorrow" or "the mayor of Y says children are dieing" I start researching. The day the "experts" said 'up to 2.2 million people are going to die in the next 45 days if we don't do this' I started looking at numbers at other places, studied populations and learned that the "experts" were full of it. But I already knew this thing won't no joke either. 

Truth is out there. But it's rarely in 30 second sound bites.


----------



## lion504

bykfixer said:


> .... and learned that the "experts" were full of it. ....



What he said.


----------



## Devildude

Greta said:


> Poppy is quite accurate with his assessment - more than even he probably knows.
> 
> My husband retired from the military then retired from law enforcement. With all kinds of extra time on his hands and still being fairly young, he went and got a culinary degree to pursue his dream of being a chef. He put in applications at a few of the franchises, but mostly at the local "mom and pop" restaurants. He even put in apps at a couple of nursing homes. He did have a bit of an advantage which places would be better because as a police officer, he knew which ones were dealing out the back door and which ones hadn't got caught yet. Several places told him flat out "Nope! Don't need an ex-cop in our kitchen." Yes, they were that honest. Oddly, he got hired by a nursing home. After several months there, he quit. Cuz the head chef was not only dealing out the back door but was also partaking... while working. He quit because "I'm not a cop anymore. But it doesn't mean I wanna be around that." Fast forward to several other places he was hired and the same exact thing was going on. Two of the places were major resorts in town. One was a family operated place - the owner was stoned at all times and had a storage truck in the parking lot where he took breaks to get high several times a shift. Talking to other people in town who had left the restaurant industry for other pursuits, they all have the same stories. That's just the way it is.
> 
> He's sad that he isn't cooking anymore - he really was good at it and loved it. But he has moved on - working for Home Depot now and NO ONE shows up under the influence and NO ONE is dealing out the back door or taking a break to get high. He's happy...



That reminds me of working for one of the hotels in Cooperstown 17 years ago. The recreational habits were as obvious as the tourists, funny I don't think I have run into more than one or two of the cooks from back then. They were the only normal ones that i remembered, I did learn some really good recipes from them while I was there.


----------



## bykfixer

I studied to become a chef early in my divorce period so I could cook at an oceanside restaraunt. Idea being do a wake n bake, go surfing until 10am and then to work in time to prepare lunch for tourists. Lots of my high school buddies has moved to the Outter Banks of NC so I'd have had lots of company to Cheech & Chong with. 
I chose sobriety and stayed in my already current career. No regrets. 

The other day I went to a lawn care equipment dealer to replace a 15 year old trimmer. The owner asked if I had retired yet. I joked saying "I'm a consultant now, we don't retire, we just die at work one day". Point being we love what we do that much. He chuckled and said "me too".
He had a 3 customer limit inside his shop. So lots of folks waited outside while someone with them went inside to buy a part or drop off a busted machine. Usually I stand around and chit chat with folks there I've known for decades but took care of business and split quickly so the next customer could go inside.


----------



## bigburly912

StarHalo said:


> I'll take your word for it, not a lot of warehouse floor grunts working ten hour shifts with the time or money for using on the job.



You are very naive if you think nobody at amazon uses.


----------



## StarHalo

bigburly912 said:


> You are very naive if you think nobody at amazon uses.



You should share some of your expertise about my job, I'd love to hear that.


----------



## knucklegary

bigburly912 said:


> You are very naive if you think nobody at amazon uses.



Due to coronavirus during the last 7 weeks, while we're all locked down, CEO Bezos net worth has risen to $145 Billion 

And.. take a close look at his eyes..
Experts are saying it's a medical condition, but most of us know his asymmetrical half cocked appearance is from the Cheech & Chong disorder /-;


----------



## bigburly912

StarHalo said:


> You should share some of your expertise about my job, I'd love to hear that.



Unlike you I am not an expert of other people’s jobs or situations. You sure didn’t mind telling Poppy he was wrong about a place you’d never been to. I did however run a manufacturing plant and now I work in a very small office setting. I don’t know how many people work in your warehouse don’t really care you aren’t worth the time or effort.


----------



## StarHalo

You all saw this, right?


----------



## scout24

I worked as a "safety sensitive" employee for 20+ years after leaving the Military. I've been randomly uranalysis tested for a paycheck since 1989 in Basic Training. I would lose count telling you about people who got sent away for 30 days or who lost jobs, benefits, careers, and famalies to substance use KNOWING they were going to be tested. Stupidity and addiction, while different things, are not magically stopped by a sign on the door, signature on a paycheck, or name of a company. Any suggestion to the contrary is laughable.


----------



## bigburly912

scout24 said:


> Any suggestion to the contrary is laughable.



Not at amazon. 

In all seriousness I couldn’t tell you how many people I would have never thought were on drugs would NOT go to paid rehab/classes to save their jobs because they didn’t want their families to know. Instead of saying they got fired for drugs they “quit”


----------



## knucklegary

While in Basic during these random testing did another soldier or medic stand over you while giving your sample? To make sure you're not slipping in a clean sample..

Never had this during my stint in Army


----------



## raggie33

Im praying this ends soon. All my life grocery shopping was almost impossible for me due to extreme anxiety . Some days id get so overwhelmed id lose it and vomit. But now it is even worse i cant even go to store to get food. Luckly today i got some shopping done and have food. Id do the online thing but the prices are out of my budget. I pretty much only buy whats on sale for bogo. Ps i cant see a dang thing with my mask on because it fogs up my glasses. But i do know im lucky for my health


----------



## scout24

Knucklegary- we had what was affectionately known as the "p****r checker" (it rhymes) whose job was to assure honest samples. For us lower enlisted, that was generally E-6 and up '89-93, U.S. Army...


----------



## StarHalo

raggie33 said:


> Im praying this ends soon. All my life grocery shopping was almost impossible for me due to extreme anxiety . Some days id get so overwhelmed id lose it and vomit. But now it is even worse i cant even go to store to get food. Luckly today i got some shopping done and have food. Id do the online thing but the prices are out of my budget. I pretty much only buy whats on sale for bogo. Ps i cant see a dang thing with my mask on because it fogs up my glasses. But i do know im lucky for my health



Your local dollar stores will still have a lot in stock, worth a look if you haven't tried it.


----------



## raggie33

StarHalo said:


> Your local dollar stores will still have a lot in stock, worth a look if you haven't tried it.



I love the dollar trees they have or at least had generic spam for a buck a can


----------



## StarHalo

raggie33 said:


> I love the dollar trees they have or at least had generic spam for a buck a can



Yeah, that's where you get the pumpkin spice stuff after the stores have stopped stocking it :laughing:


----------



## P_A_S_1

Been randomly drug tested by my employer for 20+ years. First it was urine tests then it became hair samples. Early in my career even did random breathalyzer tests as we fell under NTSB guidelines. Few failed over the years but there was always one or two and it was always a shock. You never know what someone is up too, it's not always so visible. One testing facility had mounted mirrors slanted over each urinal in the men's room where the administer could stand 10 feet behind you and watch you giving samples....it was creepy to look up and see eyes on you.


----------



## bykfixer

Where my office is there's a temp service and from time to time the owner stops in to chat with me. He says 9 of 10 fail the drug test he tells them he is going to give them before they sit down to chat about a job.

Lately he stops by to say "nobody wants a job right now since Uncle Sam is paying them more to set at home then work".


----------



## knucklegary

scout24 said:


> Knucklegary- we had what was affectionately known as the "p****r checker" (it rhymes) whose job was to assure honest samples. For us lower enlisted, that was generally E-6 and up '89-93, U.S. Army...



Unfortunately many soldiers returned home from overseas tour of duty with drug addictions, from WWII to Iraq and Afghanistan there were no exceptions 

I was given a barrage of immunizations shots going and coming. The Yellow fever inoculation had me worried 

No P**ker checkers during samples, guess that came later when they got wise to the junkies cover up methods


----------



## P_A_S_1

bykfixer said:


> Where my office is there's a temp service and from time to time the owner stops in to chat with me. He says 9 of 10 fail the drug test he tells them he is going to give them before they sit down to chat about a job.



Lol. So when I started with the city you went through a investigation process and I had to show up with a $100 money order to get finger printed. The room had about 50 people in it and an old police sergeant came in and said "were going to print you now and your prints will be run and if they match open cases you will be arrested....so if you want to save your $100 you can leave now". I joke not, 3/4 of the room got up and walked out, it was amazing. The sergeant looked unmoved like it was the norm. It was priceless.


----------



## scout24

For my generation coming back from Desert Storm, there were too many suicides. Alcoholism, weed and crack were big. We lost more people to suicide in my company in the first 12 months we were home than my batallion lost overseas. We had one I recall who "came out" under don't ask/don't tell to get a General under Honorable Conditions discharge rather than face a Dishonorable due to UCMJ for drug use. And yes, the immunizations were insane. Nothing on your shot records, sleeves up and keep moving..


----------



## raggie33

scout24 said:


> For my generation coming back from Desert Storm, there were too many suicides. Alcoholism, weed and crack were big. We lost more people to suicide in my company in the first 12 months we were home than my batallion lost overseas. We had one I recall who "came out" under don't ask/don't tell to get a General under Honorable Conditions discharge rather than face a Dishonorable due to UCMJ for drug use. And yes, the immunizations were insane. Nothing on your shot records, sleeves up and keep moving..



Ty for your service sir


----------



## scout24

Thanks Raggie. And to you, knucklegary. Your generation set a high bar for us kids 👍

Back on a Corona virus related note, my county of approx. 50,000 people is holding steady at 117 confirmed cases and 5 deaths.


----------



## bykfixer

PAS1, when drug testing was first introduced in my state in road construction it was to lower insurance costs. I was still a pup and the bosses would say "who is going to build roads if you get rid of all the drunks and stoners?"……

One day on an interchange project with about 200 workers they did a big drug test where everybody was checked. Next day there were 7 people left. Turns out the drunks were the ones building roads after that. 

It used to take days to get results back. Now you can buy "drug test cups" at drug stores. Hopefully somebody will make that tech available for this corona thing real soon. 
That whole shove the swab in until you gag then wait 3 to 5 days……phooey on that. We can send a man to the moon in a low bidder craft, certainly we should be able to check for a virus in a drug test cup.

My little town is climbing a few per week Scout. (76 as of today) Now the stats come from where the test was done and because we have a facility being used by surrounding communities our numbers may be skewed. The 7 deaths have been in a nursing home.


----------



## knucklegary

They should not send young minds and bodies into battle

..should send older aging (but battle capable) MMF veterans to do US Gov't dirty work

Here in NorCal our county qualifies for phase II, but still no reopening hair salons, gyms or dental offices


----------



## raggie33

I took a drug test once i got a b-


----------



## StarHalo

Rick Bright's testimony before Congress today is pretty reveling, definitely not good news for the "we did a good job" crowd..

“Lives were endangered, and I believe lives were lost. Not only that, we were forced to procure the supplies from other countries without the right quality standards, so even our doctors and nurses in the hospitals today are wearing N95-marked masks from other countries that are not providing the sufficient protection that a US-standard N95 mask would provide them.”


----------



## Kestrel

knucklegary said:


> They should not send young minds and bodies into battle
> ..should send older aging (but battle capable) MMF veterans to do US Gov't dirty work [...]


Ya but folks would get too smart in the interim. :-/


----------



## knucklegary

Agreed us old farts are not gullible enough to follow ridiculous stupid orders. That's why they drafted 18yr olds


----------



## Poppy

scout24 said:


> Thanks Raggie. And to you, knucklegary. Your generation set a high bar for us kids 
> 
> Back on a Corona virus related note, my county of approx. 50,000 people is holding steady at 117 confirmed cases and 5 deaths.


What a difference 50 miles makes.

My town has about 54,000 people in about 23 square miles.
We have 1179 confirmed cases and 124 deaths. 
We do have about 15 nursing/assisted living homes, and a lot of the deaths occurred in them.


----------



## bykfixer

StarHalo said:


> Rick Bright's testimony before Congress today is pretty reveling, definitely not good news for the "we did a good job" crowd..
> 
> “Lives were endangered, and I believe lives were lost. Not only that, we were forced to procure the supplies from other countries without the right quality standards, so even our doctors and nurses in the hospitals today are wearing N95-marked masks from other countries that are not providing the sufficient protection that a US-standard N95 mask would provide them.”



Tokyo Rose at it again.

https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/blue-print/sag-members.pdf
A WHO board member.
Took me 45 seconds to find it.


----------



## Poppy

bykfixer said:


> It used to take days to get results back. Now you can buy "drug test cups" at drug stores. Hopefully somebody will make that tech available for this corona thing real soon.
> That whole shove the swab in until you gag then wait 3 to 5 days……phooey on that. We can send a man to the moon in a low bidder craft, certainly we should be able to check for a virus in a drug test cup.



They do have a spit test that was approved about a week ago. for the virus,
and a pin prick test for antibodies.

They are talking about a lollipop sponge test to come out soon.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/08/health/fda-coronavirus-spit-test.html


----------



## RBR

.....


----------



## StarHalo

bykfixer said:


> https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/blue-print/sag-members.pdf
> A WHO board member.
> Took me 45 seconds to find it.



Why was that a bad thing again?


----------



## raggie33

We have 2200 cases which is kind of scary for such a small county but i bought a uv light and lysol


----------



## Greta

So for the most part, I've just been taking this whole thing in stride. As I mentioned before, the only thing I've really missed is a rousing game of poker with my friends at the Cigar Bar. As a small family/household of three, we've been staying home except for Honey going to work and occasional "quick run" once a week for "essentials". Even now while waiting for the results of Honey's test, we're good. I haven't really paid much attention to those who choose to be stupid. None of my business. We do our thing. We mind our own business and take care of ourselves. I don't care if people wear masks or gloves or full PPE from head to toe... or not. Don't care. None of my business. 

All that being said... today I finally had enough. I am so totally over the fear mongering such as this:

Posted in a FB Group: _"There are 47 confirmed cases in Lake Havasu. COVID-19 is out there, folks. Stay home, be safe."_

Now I've been in this group long enough to know what will get a post/thread deleted by the admins. And I'm no slouch when it comes to being a total troll. So my response was:

_"Do you know how many of those 47 cases have been resolved?"
_
I got a notification that the OP responded to me but by the time I went to read it, it had all been deleted. Score one for me! :thumbsup:

See... this is the kind of crap that I am SOOOO sick of!!! :hairpull: That's 47 confirmed cases in _TWO MONTHS_! I can tell you that I know of four of them that have been resolved - they're dead. Again... that's four deaths in two months! BTW - the population of permanent residents in my town is 55,000. Often the population is much greater due to snow birds during the winter months and Californians in the summer. They all have homes here too but do not claim permanent residency. 

So what is up with this fear mongering?!? Stop! Just STOP! If you're so freakin' afraid and want to live in fear, knock your socks off! Don't care! But just stop trying to spread your false fears to the rest of us. 

The other thing driving me crazy now is the whole "Well our numbers are low cuz they aren't testing". Really? Have you tried to be tested? Were you symptomatic? Was your sister's boyfriend's second baby's Mama symptomatic when she went in with a hang nail and wasn't tested? This is the kind of crap I'm seeing all over the place now and it has finally tipped me over the edge. I'm over it. I know you can't fix stupid but damn, people! Stop being so stupid!! 

Perhaps, in the end, it is best I am staying home now. Because I honestly do NOT want to be around people like that. My tolerance meter has officially pinged off the charts and broke. 

Having gone through the process now, I have first hand knowledge of how it's working. Honey called the VA las Monday afternoon (arguably the WORST health care system in this country! I know that first hand also!) and told them he was slightly weak, had minor GI issues, and he was cold. They had him scheduled for a test at 10AM the following day. Boom. Done. Too easy! And that's the VA! I know of other urgent care facilities here in town where you can go online, list your symptoms, and get an appointment either same day or next day for testing. Boom. Done. Too easy! So the excuse that "well they aren't testing" is freakin' lame... and false. Stop.

There. I feel better now.


----------



## Dave D

Just felt a tremor in Southern Spain, 2251hrs Central European time, and there was me thinking 2020 could get much worse!! 

Turns out that I'm 6 miles from the epicentre, fortunately only 3.6 magnitude.


----------



## StarHalo

There should be a "Happy Coronavirus" thread for everyone who would prefer to keep the subject carefree and celebratory..


----------



## scout24

The alternative is you could stop posting in this one, and start your own for comtent YOU want?


----------



## StarHalo

scout24 said:


> The alternative is you could stop posting in this one, and start your own for comtent YOU want?



Polarization is part of the problem, I believe part of how a community survives is an agora/a forum where all ideas are welcome so that all can be compared and contrasted. We haven't had this problem in the past.


----------



## raggie33

Btw am i the only one who saw corona virus 2 and thought to self it was a new more deadly strain?


----------



## StarHalo

raggie33 said:


> Btw am i the only one who saw corona virus 2 and thought to self it was a new more deadly strain?



The sequel always has more action..


----------



## scout24

StarHalo said:


> Polarization is part of the problem, I believe part of how a community survives is an agora/a forum where all ideas are welcome so that all can be compared and contrasted. We haven't had this problem in the past.



Yet you, YOU, suggested divesting the thread to suit your wants. Not me. And if you think it hasn't happened here before, you really are in denial. Go to a tint snob thread, or ask one poster here in this thread how he feels about HDS lights...


----------



## Greta

StarHalo said:


> There should be a "Happy Coronavirus" thread for everyone who would prefer to keep the subject carefree and celebratory..



Now see... this is part of what I'm talking about. You choose to totally misinterpret/misunderstand/misrepresent what I said. I am not looking for people to be carefree and celebrate. All I'm asking for is accurate information without fear mongering and spinning. For some idiot to post in a FB group that there are a certain number of confirmed cases in a city and "_COVID-19 is HERE!_" is just plain wrong! Give *ALL* of the information or STFU! *ALL* of the information is: _"There have been 47 confirmed cases reported in LHC in the past two months since the first confirmed case was reported. Since then, four people have died."_ It's not that difficult! The first implies there are 47 confirmed cases _currently_ running around town. (And in a town of 55,000+, that's seriously NOTHNG!) The second _states_ there have been 47 cases in two months. Big difference. Mainly, that one is accurate and one is just plain fear mongering. If you can't see that, then please... by all means... show yourself the door. Cuz I'm seriously done with the crap.


----------



## StarHalo

scout24 said:


> Yet you, YOU, suggested divesting the thread to suit your wants. Not me. And if you think it hasn't happened here before, you really are in denial. Go to a tint snob thread, or ask one poster here in this thread how he feels about HDS lights...



I suggested the creation of a more appropriately titled alternate that better suits the wants of others in this thread; it would be misleading to have a thread about an earthquake where posters would prefer to not discuss how to get through an earthquake or the posts diverged completely from news coverage to just focus on positive aspects, yet those of us who don't share this optimistic view of a pandemic are routinely being told that these views aren't welcome here.


----------



## raggie33

Ive been germ phobic for years one because the flu sucks and two i have a few iguannas as pets.


----------



## StarHalo

Greta said:


> For some idiot to post in a FB group that there are a certain number of confirmed cases in a city and "_COVID-19 is HERE!_" is just plain wrong! Give *ALL* of the information or STFU!



That is fair. How would you compare the progress of this thread versus that one on FB?


----------



## bigburly912

StarHalo said:


> That is fair. How would you compare the progress of this thread versus that one on FB?



They both definitely have a dumbass lurking


----------



## Greta

StarHalo said:


> I suggested the creation of a more appropriately titled alternate that better suits the wants of others in this thread; it would be misleading to have a thread about an earthquake where posters would prefer to not discuss how to get through an earthquake or the posts diverged completely from news coverage to just focus on positive aspects, yet those of us who don't share this optimistic view of a pandemic are routinely being told that these views aren't welcome here.



The title of this thread is "Coronavirus - II". Everyone is going through something different during this time... even earthquakes. If you want a thread to better suit YOUR needs and views then start one titled "Coronavirus - Doom & Gloom and lots of misinformation and fear mongering". Knock yourself out. Don't be surprised if it gets shut down for being nothing more than spam :ironic:


----------



## scout24

Why should "others" conform to what you want? If you'd like to create your own thread, you can. As OP, you can even try to steer the content. This thread is very generically titled, indicating a variety of opinions and positions might be welcome here. Up until your post number 580, I don't recall anyone asking for censorship.

Edit- Sorry Greta, we were typing at the same time.

Edit by Greta - S'all good... :thumbsup:


----------



## Greta

StarHalo said:


> That is fair. How would you compare the progress of this thread versus that one on FB?





bigburly912 said:


> They both definitely have a dumbass lurking



True story.


----------



## Greta

StarHalo said:


> That is fair. How would you compare the progress of this thread versus that one on FB?



Seriously though... this thread has *A LOT* of very good and accurate information along with many stories of personal experiences and difficulties. The struggle is real! I have never disputed that. And I would never, ever shame or dismiss someone for their struggles being different than mine. But I will NEVER accept or tolerate someone misleading others with incomplete or flat out false information. A lie by omission is still a lie. Not acceptable. 

Oddly enough... YOU seem to be the only one in this thread who routinely gets called out for the "information" you post. And you also seem to be the only one in this thread who has a problem with the occasional zig someone may make in the course of this thread. I'd say that's all your problem. Not ours.


----------



## coffeecup66

bigburly912 said:


> They both definitely have a dumbass lurking



I wonder how it would go down if SH wrote that... or do I (wonder) ?



NB: the only side I'm on is mine & Facts'.


Cheers.


----------



## Greta

coffeecup66 said:


> I wonder how it would go down if SH wrote that...



We would have assumed he was talking about himself and agreed 



coffeecup66 said:


> ... or do I (wonder) ?



Don't. It hurts the head.



coffeecup66 said:


> NB: the only side I'm on is mine & Facts'.
> 
> 
> Cheers.



Back at'cha! :thumbsup:


----------



## Poppy

Greta said:


> So for the most part, I've just been taking this whole thing in stride. As I mentioned before, the only thing I've really missed is a rousing game of poker with my friends at the Cigar Bar. As a small family/household of three, we've been staying home except for Honey going to work and occasional "quick run" once a week for "essentials".
> <SNIP>
> 
> There. I feel better now.


Greta,
My Dad is a 91 y/o snow bird to Florida. I try to play cards with him each night for an hour or so. 
We video call with duo to his "smart display" and I prop up his hand between two boxes of spaghetti, and aim my phone's camera at the cards. I can see his hand, in a small icon within the display, but I don't cheat. 

Since he is extremely internet incapable, this is the best I can do. I can't walk him through downloading or installing any new apps.

However: Perhaps one of these programs will work for you and your friends.

https://www.cnet.com/news/play-texas-hold-em-video-poker-with-your-friends-for-free/

If you try any of them and like them, please let me know.


----------



## StarHalo

Greta said:


> Oddly enough... YOU seem to be the only one in this thread who routinely gets called out for the "information" you post. And you also seem to be the only one in this thread who has a problem with the occasional zig someone may make in the course of this thread. I'd say that's all your problem. Not ours.



I'm mostly getting called out on being overly negative and overly political, if you compare the volume of information I've posted versus the concerns for accuracy of that volume, it's minuscule, it's almost exclusively outright abuse being leveled at me as opposed any actual debate over accuracy. Had anyone moderated that abuse, you could perhaps try to make some sort of argument that I'm not accepting the "occasional zig", but since it was all left up for anyone reading the thread, that clearly doesn't hold water now. 



coffeecup66 said:


> I wonder how it would go down if SH wrote that... or do I (wonder) ?



This exactly. And now everyone can see plainly that I didn't participate in it.


----------



## raggie33

Ps anyone know why they dont use other names for these outbreaks other then well known brands? Like corona and kawasaki?


----------



## Greta

Poppy said:


> Greta,
> My Dad is a 91 y/o snow bird to Florida. I try to play cards with him each night for an hour or so.
> We video call with duo to his "smart display" and I prop up his hand between two boxes of spaghetti, and aim my phone's camera at the cards. I can see his hand, in a small icon within the display, but I don't cheat.
> 
> Since he is extremely internet incapable, this is the best I can do. I can't walk him through downloading or installing any new apps.
> 
> However: Perhaps one of these programs will work for you and your friends.
> 
> https://www.cnet.com/news/play-texas-hold-em-video-poker-with-your-friends-for-free/
> 
> If you try any of them and like them, please let me know.



Hey Poppy! :wave: That is so awesome you do that with your dad! But... where were you a month ago?!?! LOL - My Cigar Bar opened back up yesterday but unfortunately I am in quarantine until Honey gets his test results back. So I could not attend the Grand Re-opening... :mecry: Hopefully all will be well in a day or two and we will be able to resume poker as usual. Thank you for your suggestion though! I do appreciate it! Be well, my friend!


----------



## Greta

raggie33 said:


> Ps anyone know why they dont use other names for these outbreaks other then well known brands? Like corona and kawasaki?



Good question, raggs... no idea! Interesting thought though. Perhaps SH has some info to share with us on this?:thinking:


----------



## StarHalo

Greta said:


> Good question, raggs... no idea! Interesting thought though. Perhaps SH has some info to share with us on this?:thinking:



The Latin word for "crown" was used to scientifically describe most anything in nature that resembled a crown for most of the Enlightenment, and naturally remained in the leading fields of the 20th century as discoveries were made there.


----------



## Poppy

Greta said:


> Hey Poppy! :wave: That is so awesome you do that with your dad! But... where were you a month ago?!?! LOL - My Cigar Bar opened back up yesterday but unfortunately I am in quarantine until Honey gets his test results back. So I could not attend the Grand Re-opening... :mecry: Hopefully all will be well in a day or two and we will be able to resume poker as usual. Thank you for your suggestion though! I do appreciate it! Be well, my friend!


I hope Honey is feeling better, regardless of the test results.

Hopefully the results will be negative, and you'll be able to get out and play with some friends.

Regarding where I was a month ago.
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?466300-Games-to-play-with-Seniors-with-facetime

So my dear, keep smiling, and if you don't get out, maybe you can hold up a Martini, and face time your friends.
Be well,
Poppy


----------



## coffeecup66

raggie33 said:


> Ps anyone know why they dont use other names for these outbreaks other then well known brands? Like corona and *kawasaki*?



For my info, what was "KAWASAKI" the pseudo of ?


----------



## bigburly912

coffeecup66 said:


> I wonder how it would go down if SH wrote that... or do I (wonder) ?
> 
> 
> 
> NB: the only side I'm on is mine & Facts'.
> 
> 
> Cheers.



He called me a bigot and I got over it so I’m sure it’ll be fine. To be fair I never called anyone here a dumbass by name. Now, however, mention CNN and holy crap star halo will go off the rails.


----------



## nbp

scout24 said:


> Yet you, YOU, suggested divesting the thread to suit your wants. Not me. And if you think it hasn't happened here before, you really are in denial. Go to a tint snob thread, or ask one poster here in this thread how he feels about HDS lights...



HDS lights are probably in the top three overall finest lights made. I have had more of them than any other brand over the past 13 years. Anyone who disagrees can lick an elevator button. 


🤣🤣🤣🤣


----------



## StarHalo

bigburly912 said:


> He called me a bigot and I got over it so I’m sure it’ll be fine. To be fair I never called anyone here a dumbass by name. Now, however, mention CNN and holy crap star halo will go off the rails.



I'm glad you got over that, that would look pretty silly if someone said you'd make a good businessman and you took it as a religious slur. I will now pose the same question to you that I posed to Greta - what are the correct and trusted sources? We know CNN isn't one, so I've made it a point not to use that one. So which ones should I use?


----------



## scout24

You can post and use whatever sources of info you want in that new thread you wanted to start...


----------



## StarHalo

scout24 said:


> You can post and use whatever sources of info you want in that new thread you wanted to start...



So you're openly acknowledging that there are obviously people here who want to limit sources, but you'd still prefer to blame that on me?


----------



## bykfixer

Star,
When using _any _news agency as factual it's always a potential for biased information. Always. 

"Extra extra read all about it" is how they make their living. And these days everything, I mean everything is political in America. Wanna know what news agency to quote? 
E: none of the above

You've probably heard the old story where Joe said a man named Jim had on green pants, pass it on and 12 people later it gets back to Joe who hears a boy named Sue was wearing a purple rain coat.


----------



## StarHalo

bykfixer said:


> Star,
> When using _any _news agency as factual it's always a potential for biased information. Always.



100% valid answer. You could just say "I'd like to see some other studies" or seek a second opinion, but it defeats the purpose of posting information if you just write off anyone who doesn't share your sources..


----------



## Greta

scout24 said:


> You can post and use whatever sources of info you want in that new thread you wanted to start...





StarHalo said:


> So you're openly acknowledging that there are obviously people here who want to limit sources, but you'd still prefer to blame that on me?



That's your response to what scout posted?!?!?


How do you come up with this stuff?!?! 




And still... you continue to prove my point to all and sundry that you totally misinterpret/misunderstand/misrepresent what others post. You just never do learn... :shakehead


----------



## Greta

StarHalo said:


> ... what are the correct and trusted sources?



The ones that write: _"There have been 47 confirmed cases of COVID-19 in the past two months since the first reported case. There have been four deaths since the first reported case."_

And *NOT*: _"There are 47 confirmed cases. COVID-19 is here!"
_
Again... do you see the difference? Hmm?


----------



## StarHalo

Greta said:


> That's your response to what scout posted?!?!?



I said I wanted all sources included. BB disagrees with that position. I said there should be a thread for those who want to discuss it singularly-emotionally and not open-source factually. Scout is saying the burden is on me to produce a thread that allows all sources. So is Scout right?


----------



## bigburly912

StarHalo said:


> I said I wanted all sources included. BB disagrees with that position. I said there should be a thread for those who want to discuss it singularly-emotionally and not open-source factually. Scout is saying the burden is on me to produce a thread that allows all sources. So is Scout right?



Don’t speak for me. Ever.


----------



## StarHalo

bigburly912 said:


> Don’t speak for me. Ever.



Still waiting on that list of approved sources..


----------



## scout24

And don't twist what I say. You fool no one. You wanted to divest threads to suit your wants. You didn't like what's being posted here. I have a nice selection of shovels, you can borrow one if you'd like to continue to dig your hole.


----------



## bigburly912

? I don’t even know what you are on about with that. I told you my thoughts, I’m not a fan of any news sources anymore because they are all extremely politically motivated. There is no news there are just agendas


----------



## StarHalo

scout24 said:


> And don't twist what I say. You fool no one. You wanted to divest threads to suit your wants. You didn't like what's being posted here. I have a nice selection of shovels, you can borrow one if you'd like to continue to dig your hole.



Sorry, what you just typed is there above, you were clearly telling me that I could create a different thread that allowed all sources.


----------



## StarHalo

bigburly912 said:


> ? I don’t even know what you are on about with that. I told you my thoughts, I’m not a fan of any news sources anymore because they are all extremely politically motivated. There is no news there are just agendas



So if you posted a bit of unsourced news, and I barged in and said "Oh you're obviously one of those PBS news people," what would be your take from that?


----------



## nbp

Information is powerful. If someone posts something one doesn’t agree with, find the info to present the other side. Attacking the person is accomplishing nothing. That goes for all perspectives on the discussion.


----------



## Greta

StarHalo said:


> .... Scout is saying the burden is on me to produce a thread that allows all sources. So is Scout right?



Scout did NOT say that. Please provide me with a direct quote that says he did.

And you still haven't answered my question... do you see the difference? Do you?

Here's a hint... do some research. Fact check your source. Get ALL of the information... not just what YOU want it to say to fit YOUR agenda.

You are the minority here. Do you at least see THAT? Do you at least wonder WHY?


----------



## scout24

scout24 said:


> The alternative is you could stop posting in this one, and start your own for comtent YOU want?



This is what I posted. Typo and all. And it's what I repeatedly reference. Don't twist it.


----------



## StarHalo

scout24 said:


> This is what I posted. Typo and all. And it's what I repeatedly reference. Don't twist it.



Is this you?



scout24 said:


> You can post and use whatever sources of info you want in that new thread you wanted to start...


----------



## scout24

He NEVER answers questions. Ever. Just tries to distract.


----------



## scout24

Yup, that's me. And just how does that put any burden on you? You could post info from aliens if you want. Persecuted much? Holy crap man...


----------



## bigburly912

StarHalo said:


> So if you posted a bit of unsourced news, and I barged in and said "Oh you're obviously one of those PBS news people," what would be your take from that?



I sure as hell wouldn’t cry about it for 3 months and play a victim on a message board full of people I don’t even really know then call you a bigot.


----------



## scout24

Greta said:


> Scout did NOT say that. Please provide me with a direct quote that says he did.
> 
> And you still haven't answered my question... do you see the difference? Do you?
> 
> Here's a hint... do some research. Fact check your source. Get ALL of the information... not just what YOU want it to say to fit YOUR agenda.
> 
> You are the minority here. Do you at least see THAT? Do you at least wonder WHY?



I'd love a straight answer to your last two questions, Greta.


----------



## Greta

Just for reference on how providing ALL information can make a big difference... (not for any political reasons or commentary)

NBC News apologizes for "inaccurately" quoting William Barr

_"When Barr was asked by reporter Catherine Herridge what history would say about the decision, Barr replied that “history is written by the winner. So it largely depends on who's writing the history.”

However, “Meet the Press” didn't include Barr's full answer to Herridge's question. He went on to say: “But I think a fair history would say that it was a good decision because it upheld the rule of law. It upheld the standards of the Department of Justice, and it undid what was an injustice.”_


----------



## bykfixer




----------



## Poppy

coffeecup66 said:


> For my info, what was "KAWASAKI" the pseudo of ?



Just to be clear, they are not calling covid-19 Kawasaki disease, but they are saying the children with what they are calling "Pediatric Multi system inflammatory syndrome" -- kawasaki like in signs and symptoms.

*Kawasaki disease* (KD), also known as *Kawasaki* syndrome, is an acute febrile illness of unknown cause that primarily affects children younger than 5 years of age. The *disease* was first described in Japan by Tomisaku *Kawasaki* in 1967, and the first cases outside of Japan were reported in Hawaii in 1976.


*Kawasaki Disease (KD) - CDC*

[url]www.cdc.gov › kawasaki
[/URL]


----------



## Poppy

Greta said:


> Just for reference on how providing ALL information can make a big difference... (not for any political reasons or commentary)
> 
> NBC News apologizes for "inaccurately" quoting William Barr
> 
> _"When Barr was asked by reporter Catherine Herridge what history would say about the decision, Barr replied that “history is written by the winner. So it largely depends on who's writing the history.”
> 
> However, “Meet the Press” didn't include Barr's full answer to Herridge's question. He went on to say: “But I think a fair history would say that it was a good decision because it upheld the rule of law. It upheld the standards of the Department of Justice, and it undid what was an injustice.”_


Greta,
Great and current example to make your point.

Certainly a sober mind can read it, understand the point, and see its pertinence to the discussion at hand.

I get it!

LOL... good luck!


----------



## raggie33

Everyone take a deep breath and play with your lights for a bit. Where all flashlight lovers


----------



## P_A_S_1

raggie33 said:


> Everyone take a deep breath and play with your lights for a bit. Where all flashlight lovers



[emoji106]


----------



## Dave D

raggie33 said:


> Everyone take a deep breath and play with your lights for a bit. Where all flashlight lovers



I think we're going to need a moderator of the moderators to moderate this thread and get it back on track! :twothumbs


----------



## RedLED

This is wonderful entertainment!


----------



## bykfixer

Today begins reopen phase 1 in the bulk of my state. The governor calls it "safe at home". 

When this whole thing began We the People volunteered to take a big slash out of our daily lives in order to "flattern the curve". Obama was the first person I heard say it. Whoever said it first, it caught on. Flatten the curve even had theme songs done by clever you tubers. 

So time passes and now it seems a lot of folks actually thought the stay at home directives was going to completely stop the virus in its tracks. That was never going to happen, nor was it ever stated to be such. Flatten the curve meant it would still spread, but not so quickly. To avoid having what happened in New York from happening in metropoli across America (and the rest of planet earth). They saw northern Italy and said "yikes, here comes the corona train"……

My state has a governor we hope to see get recalled this summer. But I must say his method of juggling the spread of a novel virus versus murdering a viable economy has been well done in my view. I still want him recalled but must admit he did some moves in terms of practicality that helped reduce how badly the economy was being smothered even during the peak. Instead of draconian "stop everything" policies, he let a lot of industries keep going as long as they implimented the cdc guidelines. 

Most of us gladly comply. We don't want this virus anymore than folks in Seattle do. But we also know with a little luck, a lot of discipline we can go about our lives in a somewhat normal fashion while protecting the statistically vulnerable. My age group recently dropped to second in the case category. Replaced by 40-49 year olds. At one point we were running away from the pack, so for once I don't mind a silver medal and would actually prefer a non podium finish. 

Lots of folks are shouting "horray, steak and cocktails this weekend at Jim's steak n ale". Not so fast buster. Do you realize just how freaking long the lines are going to be even at 50% capacity? I'll set thing out a little while longer in that regard. But I do plan on visiting a hobby store to get supplies for a laser engraver collecting dust since March and buying some walking shoes at a store that was deemed non essential. And walk around with a sign on my back saying "if you can read this you'll see that I'm contagious"………

Mrs Fixer is working on a t-shirt with the Yosimite Sam "back off" symbol


----------



## idleprocess

bykfixer said:


> Mrs Fixer is working on a t-shirt with the Yosimite Sam "back off" symbol



Yosemite Sam's _trigger discipline_ has always been such that backing off six _*hundred*_ feet seems like a good plan.


----------



## Poppy

bykfixer said:


> Today begins reopen phase 1 in the bulk of my state. The governor calls it "safe at home".
> 
> When this whole thing began We the People volunteered to take a big slash out of our daily lives in order to "flattern the curve". <SNIP>
> 
> So time passes and now it seems *a lot of folks actually thought the stay at home directives was going to completely stop the virus in its tracks.* That was never going to happen, nor was it ever stated to be such. <snip>



Yeah... just goes to show. A lot of people are stupid!

When I saw pictures of people celebrating shoulder to shoulder in a bar in Wisconsin, I just shook my head.

I laugh at the over-reaction of the media when they report, that Dr Fauci said that if we open too quickly we are likely to see more infections. Duh!!! Didn't everyone in the know, state that right from the beginning?

Let's just hope that a lot of those who get exposed, have mild or no symptoms, and develop immunity, and that anti-body testing proves that out.

Fingers crossed.


----------



## raggie33

I gave so much of my corona survival gear away to people who have never once been nice to me. Whick makes me a full on moron


----------



## ven

raggie33 said:


> I gave so much of my corona survival gear away to people who have never once been nice to me. Whick makes me a full on moron




No it does not, quite the opposite imo. Its not your fault the world is full of *** holes.


----------



## markr6

Oh here it is! I've never seen a forum with so many "II", "Part 2", "Continued", "Redux", etc. threads as this one.

Slow man trying to keep up 

Went out to lunch Monday and yesterday. Kind of weird but nice and quiet. I'll have a Pepsi and covid please.


----------



## StarHalo

raggie33 said:


> I gave so much of my corona survival gear away to people who have never once been nice to me. Whick makes me a full on moron



What do you need?


----------



## raggie33

StarHalo said:


> What do you need?


Im all good i was able to make it to grocery store and i still have mask worse come to worse ill make mask . I find mask at least remind me to not touch my face.


----------



## StarHalo

raggie33 said:


> Im all good i was able to make it to grocery store and i still have mask worse come to worse ill make mask . I find mask at least remind me to not touch my face.



It's a way better deal to make your own masks than to try to find some to buy; the homemade ones look better anyway.


----------



## raggie33

I sure wish i did not sell my sewing machine i wanted to teach my self to sew because i love to be self sufficient


----------



## StarHalo

raggie33 said:


> I sure wish i did not sell my sewing machine i wanted to teach my self to sew because i love to be self sufficient



Search "no sew mask"


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

Washington State restaurants offering table seating will be required to collect the names, e-mail address and phone numbers of their patrons. :shakehead


----------



## bykfixer

High end establishments are talking about putting manequins in their restaraunts to ensure patrons stay spread out. 

"Pass the salt please"…… "oh, wait I'm talking to a life sized Ken doll". lol

I chuckled at Dr Fauchi in the background of todays press conference looking like he was wearing a muzzle. 
"Hey doc, they come in small medium and large" lol


----------



## KITROBASKIN

Dave D said:


> I think we're going to need a moderator of the moderators to moderate this thread and get it back on track! :twothumbs


Naw, RedNed's right; entertaining and a good release. Great to see Scout from the good old days, before his anointing. And letting a little inevitable politics in has been golden. It speaks highly of the maintenance crew here, keeping it from imploding on us all. 

Where would we be if there wasn't a S*** H*** to clash and bash? He does us a favor when his pontificating and goading spurs readership, right? Besides, a lot of us were not so different in the past (maybe present and future).


----------



## Johnnyh

KITROBASKIN said:


> Besides, a lot of us were not so different in the past (maybe present and future).



So true! I’ve definitely changed my stripes over the years...
Reminds me of this quote, author unknown... “If you’re not a liberal when you’re 25, you have no heart. If you’re not a conservative by the time you’re 35, you have no brain.’

But I think I was still a liberal when I was 35...Took me a while until “Get of my lawn!” seemed perfectly reasonable.


----------



## Greta

Speaking of changing stripes and moderating these forums and get off my lawn!! -----

I was asked to join these forums 18 years ago to help out with moderating and overall upkeep. I was only 40 years old then!  David W had his ways and I followed along and "learned" from him. Both of us came from a very conservative political forum. First rule of CPF - No political discussions! And we were pretty strict about that. Second Rule of CPF - Keep it family friendly to include: no flaming, baiting, or trolling, and no foul/offensive language. Over the years and once David W left the forums, I was determined to uphold the standards and integrity he established. But time goes on... and things change... and people change.

I have found that I'm not so rigid anymore... everything black or white. There really -ARE- grey areas! Go figure! And I think we have gotten to a point with our membership where the majority can act like adults. If something is a bit over the line, a gentle reminder or request to tone down is met with maturity and compliance. Easy peasy. And MUCH better than an iron fist. Was I wrong back in the day? No. I don't think I was. I think I sorted things the way they needed to be at the time and with the experience I had at the time. 

So here I am now... 58 years old. And I've learned so much more! One of the most important things I've learned is that the moderators and administrators of this forum are human too. And they have thoughts and opinions. And they should not have to keep those to themselves. Of course, there is a fine line between expressing their opinions and using their position to impose their opinions. The group we have right now is absolutely amazing! We discuss in private what we should and shouldn't say or do as far as moderation. And as far as I'm concerned, no one throws their weight around as far as their "powers". Some interpret just the presence of a moderator in a thread as inserting and asserting authority. Don't. Unless their post is specifically addressing a moderating issue, they are just regular people just like the rest of us. And yes, that includes me too.

So as far as moderating the moderators - don't worry... I got it  - and changing stripes? I've definitely done that! - And now? Get off my lawn!


----------



## bykfixer

In high school government class we had an assignment to write a positive story about a setting senator. We drew names out of a hat. I drew Ted Kennedy. "I want to draw another name" I told the teacher. She said no way and asked how come. My reply was "Aint no Ted Kennedy ever done a [email protected] thing good except be a good crook". She was appauled and insisted. My report was on the top 5 things ole Ted got away with including the "waitress sandwich" scandal. 

She read my report and sent me to the principles office. The principle laughed and said she had to give me a passing grade because I had fullfilled the requirements of the assignment. 

I guess you could say I was a get off my lawn type at an early age. 


In corona news, our state is starting phase 1 today. The Richmond mayor asked to opt out for now. People are all twisted about it but Richmond has a spread going in the wrong direction so I don't blame the guy really.


----------



## Poppy

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> Washington State restaurants offering table seating will be required to collect the names, e-mail address and phone numbers of their patrons. :shakehead


I like that style of contact tracing better than letting apple or google use their tech data stolen from each users phone and handing it over to the government.


----------



## Poppy

bykfixer said:


> <SNIP>
> 
> In corona news, our state is starting phase 1 today. The Richmond mayor asked to opt out for now. People are all twisted about it but Richmond has a spread going in the wrong direction so I don't blame the guy really.


IMO it is the smart thing to do.


----------



## raggie33

Greta said:


> Speaking of changing stripes and moderating these forums and get off my lawn!! -----
> 
> I was asked to join these forums 18 years ago to help out with moderating and overall upkeep. I was only 40 years old then!  David W had his ways and I followed along and "learned" from him. Both of us came from a very conservative political forum. First rule of CPF - No political discussions! And we were pretty strict about that. Second Rule of CPF - Keep it family friendly to include: no flaming, baiting, or trolling, and no foul/offensive language. Over the years and once David W left the forums, I was determined to uphold the standards and integrity he established. But time goes on... and things change... and people change.
> 
> I have found that I'm not so rigid anymore... everything black or white. There really -ARE- grey areas! Go figure! And I think we have gotten to a point with our membership where the majority can act like adults. If something is a bit over the line, a gentle reminder or request to tone down is met with maturity and compliance. Easy peasy. And MUCH better than an iron fist. Was I wrong back in the day? No. I don't think I was. I think I sorted things the way they needed to be at the time and with the experience I had at the time.
> 
> So here I am now... 58 years old. And I've learned so much more! One of the most important things I've learned is that the moderators and administrators of this forum are human too. And they have thoughts and opinions. And they should not have to keep those to themselves. Of course, there is a fine line between expressing their opinions and using their position to impose their opinions. The group we have right now is absolutely amazing! We discuss in private what we should and shouldn't say or do as far as moderation. And as far as I'm concerned, no one throws their weight around as far as their "powers". Some interpret just the presence of a moderator in a thread as inserting and asserting authority. Don't. Unless their post is specifically addressing a moderating issue, they are just regular people just like the rest of us. And yes, that includes me too.
> 
> So as far as moderating the moderators - don't worry... I got it  - and changing stripes? I've definitely done that! - And now? Get off my lawn!


I rather drink diarea then be a mod lol


----------



## nbp

Great post Greta. Indeed, we are all a work in progress. Not all of my near 10k posts here have been worth the screen real estate they inhabit, that’s for sure. But we grow through the blunders too. And you’re right, even in the private discussion the Mods don’t always agree. I know a few times I have ruffled feathers and I appreciate the other staff members being patient with me. Moderation has always been strong on CPF but I think we have a great group right now that by and large is quite balanced in its approach. You’ll never please everyone, and we’re humans so we’re not perfect, but overall I think this place runs pretty smoothly. Even in these COVID19 threads, there has been disagreement, but very few posts have actually been deleted. People have done a great job of following CPF rules and have been permitted to share their thoughts and opinions even if controversial.


----------



## StarHalo

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> Washington State restaurants offering table seating will be required to collect the names, e-mail address and phone numbers of their patrons. :shakehead



Remember after 9/11 when you couldn't just pull up to the curb at the airport and run onto your plane; it's that, but with anything retail.



Poppy said:


> I like that style of contact tracing better than letting apple or google use their tech data stolen from each users phone and handing it over to the government.



It's now officially not stealing if the FBI says you're a threat, it was almost prevented, but no..


----------



## scout24

Interesting thread turn today.  Thanks to the senior staff here as well as fellow members for tolerating as time has passed. It's definitely a learning curve with big shoes to fill. DM51. SilverFox. Norm. JS. Kestrel. Empath. Bullseyebill. I "grew up" here watching their interactions. Greta's confidence was big- Jeez, how is this gonna work? Felt like training wheels were on for a while. I am an active member on a total of two other forums, there's no place I've found like CPF. To work (if you will) with everyone here has been a great experience. And it wouldn't be possible without the membership here. A great bunch of people. 👍

Edit- Coming up on five years for NBP and I, it can't possibly be that long... And it seems Archimedes, with his level head and wealth of knowledge, has been staff here forever! Thanks to you both.


----------



## KITROBASKIN

Can't help thinking about 'Retired' Norm, our earlier moderator. In fact it happens on and off while reading our forum. It was easy to sometimes get ruffled about his behavior but you know what?, he had a high opinion of CPF and worked hard to keep it's standards. In private messages, he was a thoughtful gentleman. 

Going out into civilization now it seems just around the corner will be Rod Serling speaking his line, "submitted for your approval". We are in, The Twilight Zone.


----------



## bykfixer

Looking at videos from just a few months ago is sureal as nobody was wearing a mask or social distancing……

One lady was biting her nails and Mrs Fixer hollered out "don't you know not to touch your face lady?" lol


----------



## Greta

bykfixer said:


> One lady was biting her nails and Mrs Fixer hollered out "don't you know not to touch your face lady?" lol



GET OFF MY LAWN!!!


----------



## Greta

KITROBASKIN said:


> Can't help thinking about 'Retired' Norm, our earlier moderator. In fact it happens on and off while reading our forum. It was easy to sometimes get ruffled about his behavior but you know what?, he had a high opinion of CPF and worked hard to keep it's standards. In private messages, he was a thoughtful gentleman.



I had the pleasure of talking to Norm several times on the phone and we even got to FaceTime once. He was quite the gentleman and also very funny! Great sense of humor  He was indeed my friend and I felt it deeply when he passed. I still see posts by him occasionally and I've kept PM's from him. I admired him very much.


----------



## wacbzz

Where’s DM51 when he’s needed to LAY DOWN THE LAW here?


----------



## raggie33

Ps ps why did grocery stores reduce there hours? Wont it be easier to practice social distancing if the store was open more hours. Becuase we cant spread the load over more hours. There is no way it takes more then 5 hours to restock the entire store
,


----------



## PhotonWrangler

A three drug cocktail is showing promise in speeding up Covid-19 recovery. No, not that kind of a cocktail. 
:drunk:


----------



## archimedes

scout24 said:


> .... To work (if you will) with everyone here has been a great experience. And it wouldn't be possible without the membership here. A great bunch of people. 👍
> 
> Edit- Coming up on five years for NBP and I, it can't possibly be that long... And it seems Archimedes, with his level head and wealth of knowledge, has been staff here forever! Thanks to you both.



Thanks scout, and thanks to all here (staff and members)

I'm still the newest (although far from the youngest) mod here, but it does feel like it has been much longer than three years for me :thinking:

Quite frankly, it feels like we've all been battling coronavirus for more than three years, but then time doesn't really run with any consistency does it ?

And I have to mention our collective loss of Woods Walker, my moderation "classmate" :candle:

For the short time I knew him well, I found him to be very knowledgeable, kind and even inspirational. He is, and will continue to be, missed greatly.


----------



## raggie33

Btw before trump was elected i was the most conservative man on earth. Now i leant towards a liberral


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

raggie33 said:


> Btw before trump was elected i was the most conservative man on earth. Now i leant towards a liberral


 
What's her name? :naughty:


----------



## raggie33

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> What's her name? :naughty:


Lady gaga lol


----------



## turbodog

bykfixer said:


> ... Wanna know what news agency to quote?
> E: none of the above
> 
> ...




You want straight facts for news and no conclusions, opinions, or otherwise? 

AP News and Reuters.


----------



## turbodog

Mississippi will open casinos in a week, before the holiday.

So far we are holding good after opening dine-in restaurants 2 weeks ago and barbers this past Monday.

The numbers (here) continue to tick upwards, but very slightly. Will be >12 months before they get bad. Unless something changes...


----------



## Poppy

Following on the heels of the Wisconsin Supreme Court decision that the governor over stepped his authority, Tom's River, NJ students and small businesses filed suit against the NJ Governor Murphy, and others, stating arbitrary and capricious, and unconstitutionality of his Executive orders.
https://www.app.com/story/news/loca...chool-seniors-sue-graduate-public/5195717002/

Who didn't see that coming?


----------



## bykfixer

There was a time when the AP and Rueters were true investigative journalism sources. Anymore they too are rubber stamper press agencies. 

My local paper for example often uses AP articles at the top of the front page. The "extra extra read all about it" if you will. Yet on a sidewalk with a few newspapers in those coin operated boxes with other big name papers the front page is so close to the same as those other big name papers it's like being in a communist country where the state controls the propaganda so every outlet says the same thing. Like they all have the former editor of TASS approving the stories on page 1.
Rueters is guilty of rubber stampage too. 

The modern press is a die-ing art form these days. The only real journalism taking place anymore is on the local level. Those reporters aren't invited to cocktail parties so they still have an open mind about their role. 
Every national level group seems to want to cozy up to one side and out to get the other side while claiming to be fair and balanced. 
CNN did a poll recently to determine who has the most accurate news. Guess who won? 

Mrs Fixer and I went out for a drive around our city for a check on things after 5pm, Friday evening of day 1 of phase 1 where restaraunts with outside dining were allowed to reopen for sit down meals. They all looked like a summer carnival town in winter. No takers even though the weather was perfect. Drive thru lines still looked like 2 for 1 specials were happening. It seems folks have adapted to eating at home. The real indicator will be when buffet joints reopen I suppose. 

The covid testing center was empty as usual too. One famous local barber shop owner was on the radio saying they are booked up for the next week already. 






Yeah, I'd say he's due……


----------



## bigburly912

Glad to see the bears are roaming in other parts of Virginia as well. My neighbor shot a video of this guy coming out of the woods beside my house.


----------



## Devildude

I was about 4 or 5 feet from a 300 to 400 pound black bear 3 weeks ago. It was looking in through my sliding glass door. Definitely an adrenaline rush there. It was the second bear in less than 6 months. I also had a male bobcat stroll through my backyard in January. Not too bad for being only 5 miles outside of Cooperstown.


----------



## knucklegary

Ocean bluff feral with devilish yellow eyes

She likes to eat



sardines

It's a trade off, she keeps the rodent critters at bay

Social distancing,, this is as close I am allowed to get


----------



## Greta

I'm not sure if this will display or not - it is on FaceBook. 

This is what our city is dealing with this weekend - they are lined up to get into the state park to launch their boats.



You shouldn't have to have a FB account to view it - it's public.


UPDATE: Just heard this launch closed (full capacity) 2 hours ago. That means all of these people have to try to divert to another launch ramp. Only one available... out on the island. Which means they all have to go over the London Bridge. Bridge traffic is now in gridlock. And there is no turning around or trying to get out. :shakehead 

OH! - and it is currently 92 degrees and heading for over 100 within an hour or so.


----------



## lion504

bykfixer said:


> There was a time when the AP and Rueters were true investigative journalism sources. Anymore they too are rubber stamper press agencies. [...] The modern press is a die-ing art form these days. The only real journalism taking place anymore is on the local level.



Very true. I would add that there are independent journalists operating via the internet covering COVID-19 and other issues. Mainly using twitter and other social media. For example, Glenn Greenwald.


----------



## bykfixer

Yup, lots of Indy reporters are doing the work none of the networks or agencies will do anymore. 
Truth aint always pretty. It doesn't choose sides. But it does let us decide what we stand for. 

At my work on a road widening project the traffic has exploded. I think it's weather as much as anything. Nice 85 degree day after being a lingering cold-ish spring has folks out and about. That and stimulous checks.


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

I accompanied my 80+ mother on a shopping trip to the local military commissary this morning. :twothumbs


----------



## raggie33

Want to see something funny yet scary as alexa which message board forum has the strictest mods. Just a hit its a forum we all know


----------



## idleprocess

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> I accompanied my 80+ mother on a shopping trip to the local military commissary this morning. :twothumbs:



Local Costco has had a similar display of plenitude both times I've visited the last ~2 weeks.


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

idleprocess said:


> Local Costco has had a similar display of plenitude both times I've visited the last ~2 weeks.


 
...... Good to go.


----------



## scout24

Quite literally...


----------



## PhotonWrangler

That's great to see Chauncey. Does it still look fully stocked at the end of the day? Many of the stores around here are pretty well stocked in the mornings but the hoarders scoop it up by the end of the day.


----------



## SCEMan

scout24 said:


> Quite literally...


----------



## turbodog

You must be reading Reuters and AP sections I am not. Their articles/fact checks are straight facts, with citations, and full quotes not snippets. There's no supposition or inference.


----------



## raggie33

To save tp i teach my bowels to only pass stools one a week


----------



## bigburly912

raggie33 said:


> To save tp i teach my bowels to only pass stools one a week



Needs to be in the prepper thread! : D


----------



## bykfixer

Celebrated the phase one thing by eating a nice steak out on a patio at a place that was closed until yesterday with Mrs Fixer after stopping in a hobby store that was also closed and bought some wire sized drill bits then a shoe store that had been closed and bought some new flip flops for this summer. 

The roads were crowded but not the stores or steak joint.


----------



## raggie33

What cut byk?


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

PhotonWrangler said:


> That's great to see Chauncey. Does it still look fully stocked at the end of the day? Many of the stores around here are pretty well stocked in the mornings but the hoarders scoop it up by the end of the day.



We were there around 1pm. Sorry, I don't know how the shelves looked by day's end. This was the first time in over a month that I'd seen any paper available at that location.


----------



## nbp

raggie33 said:


> Want to see something funny yet scary as alexa which message board forum has the strictest mods. Just a hit its a forum we all know



For real? [emoji23]


----------



## knucklegary

raggie33 said:


> To save tp i teach my bowels to only pass stools one a week



I tried to teach my bowels that trick and ended up throwing away a perfectly good pair of knickers


----------



## Lynx_Arc

I quit wasting my time with news networks 20 years ago when they went to a Jerry Springer type of format all of them were picking the most controversial topics and having 2 people argue about it for a half hour show them another half hour show hosted by someone else with 2 more people arguing the same thing. I found Gilligan's Island less monotonous than news networks as at least there was lame humor instead of lame politicians.


----------



## Sos24

Our local paper went to the beach today and took the below picture to show how “crowded” the beach was and how people are disregarding social distancing. 

The beach does look pretty crowded until you realize it is about 250ft from water to boardwalk and over 1.5 miles from where the picture was taken to the tall Marriott with the red “M”. Maybe some people aren’t social distancing but I bet there is over twice the space between most people than what there is at the grocery store or Walmart.


----------



## knucklegary

And much healthier environment than Walmart

Our beaches are open for rec but if the patrol finds folks with umbrellas and coolers parked it's a $1000 fine

Boardwalk stores must be closed up, or open?

Can't wait to see the beach conditions come Memorial Day weekend


----------



## bykfixer

Didn't the mayor of LA close beaches forever or until there is a cure for stupidity, whichever comes first KG? 

Raggae, it was a small (4 oz) flat iron steak.


----------



## raggie33

Scary stuff. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/15/...ingston-ny.html#click=https://t.co/wCmpKxEPqy


----------



## raggie33

bykfixer said:


> Didn't the mayor of LA close beaches forever or until there is a cure for stupidity, whichever comes first KG?
> 
> Raggae, it was a small (4 oz) flat iron steak.


Awesume i love steak with sea salt


----------



## Poppy

Sos24 said:


> Our local paper went to the beach today and took the below picture to show how “crowded” the beach was and how people are disregarding social distancing.
> 
> The beach does look pretty crowded until you realize it is about 250ft from water to boardwalk and over 1.5 miles from where the picture was taken to the tall Marriott with the red “M”. Maybe some people aren’t social distancing but I bet there is over twice the space between most people than what there is at the grocery store or Walmart.



Thanks for pointing out the distances.
Except at the water's edge, it does seem like the little clusters of people are actually pretty far apart. Yes there are clusters, but they are likely living together anyway.

However if you look at the forefront, these people are doing a pretty good job of staying apart.
Still... I'm not going there.


----------



## knucklegary

raggie33 said:


> Scary stuff. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/15/...ingston-ny.html#click=https://t.co/wCmpKxEPqy



Now they can stick him in those corona infected convalescent hospitals and let him cut hair

Byk, "Stupid is as stupid does"


----------



## bykfixer

This weeks grocery trip was about back to normal supply-wise. Tacos must be on everybodys wish list right now. And skim milk is still in short supply. But they even had toilet paper. The Wednesday delivery is when they get toilet paper so to see some remaining today was a surprise. I bought some of the house brand because I just can't get used to that super soft fluffy stuff that was the only kind you could find in March. 

A pair of nice New York strips were about $14 at May 1. Today they were $17 so no huge spike in price but definitely a jump. Pig and bird were normal priced and plentiful. 

One guy had about as many cartons of soda in, on and under his cart as you can physically do. Older fellow, appeared to be 90 something, but he was pushing that what must have been 200 pound load with ease. We figured he was a WW2 vet stocking up for a Legion hall just now allowed to reopen or he owns soda machines or something like that. 

By going early Sunday morning we avoid a crowd so there are typically 25 to 50 people in the store including workers. Masked folks were about 25% today but nobody wore latex gloves. So it appears folks are still nervous, but not panicky nervous like 3 weeks ago. My state went from 4000 a week to 10,000 a week testing in a month and the more they test the positives are still at a falling rate so the data was used to partially reopen things. I suspect the community is more at ease knowing that. It's nice to see folks are relaxing yet still using caution.


----------



## SCEMan

Poppy said:


> Thanks for pointing out the distances.
> Except at the water's edge, it does seem like the little clusters of people are actually pretty far apart. Yes there are clusters, but they are likely living together anyway.
> 
> However if you look at the forefront, these people are doing a pretty good job of staying apart.
> Still... I'm not going there.



Not many masks visible... Another concern is use of the public bathrooms which wasn't that much fun pre-COVID.


----------



## raggie33

Part of me wonders is it better if the world just ends! I mean so much bad stuff happening.for real i was watching live pd. Which is a real police like cops but its live. But i saw them looking for parents who was trying to sell there child! Wtf is wrong with humans?


----------



## StarHalo

raggie33 said:


> Part of me wonders is it better if the world just ends! I mean so much bad stuff happening.for real i was watching live pd.



You should watch something more positive..


----------



## bykfixer

StarHalo said:


> You should watch something more positive..



Like Chernobyl. Even that mini series is more uplifting than todays "reality" shows. 

Re-runs are cool. Like the Jeffersons or MASH. 


NASCAR is running at Darlington today. I figured they would resume at the Memorial Day race. Formula One is also talking about running at Austria for two races but that won't be until July. Baseball may also begin in July as teams will be doing spring training soon.


----------



## knucklegary

Did I hear Nascar, Baseball.. All that is Holy to Americans, I cannot wait any longer!


----------



## Greta

knucklegary said:


> Did I hear Nascar, Baseball.. All that is Holy to Americans, I cannot wait any longer!



And Cornhole too!! :rock:


----------



## bykfixer

Greta said:


> And Cornhole too!! :rock:



I miss yard darts. The real kind. 

Grownups having a cookout with little kids running around……we knew those things were dangerous. The drunker the adults got the wider berth we gave those babies. Good gosh. We lived to tell about it. lol. 

I figured the gubment banned yard darts and toss across was so……1970's so corn hole was the next step in the yard dart evolution.


----------



## knucklegary

Greta, I sure puckered up when read cornhole! :duck::whoopin:


----------



## orbital

+

Our country needs a good old fashioned _White Trash Party_!!!

Best cut-off tees, trucker ballcaps, car on blocks out front.. many kegs, you name it.....
grillin' anything!

T-shirts that read White Trash 2020 (smiley face) on front
and on back
_You're going to need a bigger virus_


----------



## bykfixer




----------



## raggie33

bykfixer said:


>



Im going to be a teenage mutant turtle!


----------



## Greta

orbital said:


> +
> 
> Our country needs a good old fashioned _White Trash Party_!!!
> 
> Best cut-off tees, trucker ballcaps, car on blocks out front.. many kegs, you name it.....
> grillin' anything!
> 
> T-shirts that read White Trash 2020 (smiley face) on front
> and on back
> _You're going to need a bigger virus_



LOL!! I kinda like this idea!! :laughing:


----------



## raggie33

StarHalo said:


> You should watch something more positive..


i love him


----------



## scout24

Gonna need some Moccasin Creek at your party, orbital...


----------



## bigburly912

scout24 said:


> Gonna need some Moccasin Creek at your party, orbital...



They’d probably do a show for a chew of Copenhagen and a few brewskies


----------



## raggie33

Im wondering if most people in all of you in this thread wear mask? In my town its like 55 percent wear mask. It got a lot better a week or 2 ago.


----------



## bigburly912

raggie33 said:


> Im wondering if most people in all of you in this thread wear mask? In my town its like 55 percent wear mask. It got a lot better a week or 2 ago.



I do because my wife is a nurse practitioner and it’s hard telling who/what she sees every day in her clinic. Out of caring for other people I wear one any time I go in a building with other occupants.


----------



## StarHalo

raggie33 said:


> Im wondering if most people in all of you in this thread wear mask? In my town its like 55 percent wear mask. It got a lot better a week or 2 ago.



I wear a mask or I get fired..


----------



## turbodog

MS opened sit down dining 2 weeks ago, barbers a week ago, and the casinos open this week. Yet, the numbers are not rebounding greatly, if at all.

They are very slightly trending upwards, like they did while still on lockdown.

We went for mexican on Saturday. I could have sat there all day eating chips and so on.


----------



## wacbzz

I wear a bandana...a mask was/is really uncomfortable with my beard and barring a legit report saying that bandanas don’t work AT ALL, I’ll stick with the current precaution. I dislike the fact that I go into grocery stores for instance, and there are folks not wearing a mask/bandana, but the is nothing I can do about it, but stay a good distance from them. 

I was “essential,” so I’ve been working since day one, but don’t think for a moment that I wouldn’t rather have been at home with my family instead of being at work. I’m the guy with zero empathy for folks clamoring to “get out” because they’ve been “cooped up” when they don’t realize the risk “essential” folks have been putting up with simply because they don’t want to be at home. Perspective. It’s what all these assholes going to the beaches now don’t have...


----------



## Hooked on Fenix

Nice to see some things opening up in San Diego county. Santee drive in theater is open (it never should have been closed to begin with). Three of the larger lakes in the county are now open. I wish they'd open all the trails and drop the mask requirement. Until then, I'll stick to walking laps at home mask free. I'm not hiking in the heat with a mask and a messed up thyroid (body's thermostat is busted so I can't handle extreme heat or cold). Indian casinos are planning to open up this week. San Diego county's government is against the casinos opening and wants to stop it. Indian casinos are on tribal land so the city has no jurisdiction to do anything. We'll have to wait and see how that plays out. With the vast majority of people without jobs and pissed off because of it, I'm seeing a lot of people protesting with all the time in the world to do it. Can't see these lockdowns and restrictions lasting too much longer with so many people furious and elections coming up this year. Hopefully, the death toll continues to drop and we can return to some semblance of normalcy very soon. It can't come soon enough.


----------



## jabe1

I’m in the higher risk demographic so when I go out, I wear a mask. 
I start working again this week, and I’ll wear one while working also. 
Be wise of our lack of testing, there is no way to know who is contagious and who is not.


----------



## KITROBASKIN

From Associated Press; a description of what is happening in the USA and reflected in our discussions here. My issue of not wearing masks at businesses is the risk working-poor employees have to deal with encountering many, many people over the course of the day, drastically increasing their chances of exposure because somebody has no mask on as an expression of a political bent. I avoid the mask whenever possible, but some people are going to die over this. 

https://apnews.com/d1275651bc23d0ac3d35863b9f86c2ad


----------



## bigburly912

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sa...nly-had-six-pure-coronavirus-deaths?_amp=true

Interesting read


----------



## idleprocess

wacbzz said:


> I was “essential,” so I’ve been working since day one, but don’t think for a moment that I wouldn’t rather have been at home with my family instead of being at work. I’m the guy with zero empathy for folks clamoring to “get out” because they’ve been “cooped up” when they don’t realize the risk “essential” folks have been putting up with simply because they don’t want to be at home. Perspective. It’s what all these assholes going to the beaches now don’t have...



"Essential" worker but working from home for more than two months now. Suspect I'll head into the office _(which has remained open continuously)_ sometime this month just to break up the monotony since I gather _census_ levels are <5% normal making it reasonably safe to visit. Otherwise I'm not much leaving the neighborhood and a tank of gas lasts a month or so.


----------



## knucklegary

Wacbzz, Don't know (don't care) where your North of South is located, but around my neck of the woods if folks don't have something covering their face, they are not entering any stores.. period


----------



## bigburly912

knucklegary said:


> Wacbzz, Don't know (don't care) where your North of South is located, but around my neck of the woods if folks don't have something covering their face, they are not entering any stores.. period



There’s a few like that here still but not many.


----------



## bykfixer

To mask or not to mask, that is the question. 

I'm in the bandana/scarf camp. I have masks but ended up preferring a bandana.

I'm still practicing the big 3 reccomendations. 6+ feet apart, wash your hands and don't touch your face (with unwashed hands).


----------



## knucklegary

+1 Byk.. many of us do the bandana. It serves me only to get into grocery stores

One thing I find with folks wearing face coverings is the inability to read expressions, especially to my comments 

The other day while feeling-up the tomatoes my bandana slipped off and the hot produce gal caught me smiling 🍅🍌


----------



## bykfixer

I've worn a bandana for years turned to cover my neck when in the sun a lot. I see several respected business folks wearing them everyday now. It's easy to deploy, easy to remove and you forget you have it around your neck when not doing the cowboy bank robber thing. 

Plus it's kinda fun saying "reach for the sky pilgrim" in grocery stores. When it's hot it can be used as a head covering to soak up sweat, then wrapped around the neck like a cool wet rag. When I was a lad my grandma had one sewn like Aunt Jamima complete with a padded sweat band. She just slid it over her head like a wig. So it was just a natural thing when I started working road construction. My work truck has several so when the pandemic got cranked up I just grabbed one and started wearing after seeing a big time lawyer in my area wearing a tiger print one as an accessory to his "Matlock" suit. lol.


----------



## turbodog

bigburly912 said:


> https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sa...nly-had-six-pure-coronavirus-deaths?_amp=true
> 
> Interesting read



I read the article. Sounds like he's parroting Trump. So we disregard or trivialize the virus, or any virus, because people were going to die early anyway? WTH man?

There's a rather large coronavirus death gap that's being missed.

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/04/16/tracking-covid-19-excess-deaths-across-countries


----------



## RedLED

Bandanas. When I was a fireman for the CDF, here in California, on vegetation fires, we would wet them and wear them like the cowboy robbers to filter the smoke. Actually, they did an excellent job.


----------



## raggie33

This woman may be one of my fav non blood related person https://vm.tiktok.com/Tp5fmf/


----------



## Greta

I don't own a mask. Neither does Honey. We haven't worn one once since this whole mess started. In our city of 55,000 permanent residents, we currently have 52 confirmed cases in two and a half months - four deaths. Closest town to us is 40 miles away. 

Today we got the results back from Honey's test last Tuesday - "Not detected".  - We immediately started getting ready to go to the cigar bar. When we got there is was like Norm walking into Cheers - so awesome!!  - Yes, I hugged a couple of people who are very dear to me and I haven't seen in 7 weeks. No one wore masks. We played three games of poker. We bet on whether the next customer in the bar would be a male or female. We bet on whether the next customer would have shoelaces or not. We bet on what color the next customer's underwear was. And I had my favorite vodka... Absolut Elyx. All is right with the world again. Honey goes back to work tomorrow. I will finally sleep well tonight... :tired::sleepy:


----------



## raggie33

Greta said:


> I don't own a mask. Neither does Honey. We haven't worn one once since this whole mess started. In our city of 55,000 permanent residents, we currently have 52 confirmed cases in two and a half months - four deaths. Closest town to us is 40 miles away.
> 
> Today we got the results back from Honey's test last Tuesday - "Not detected".  - We immediately started getting ready to go to the cigar bar. When we got there is was like Norm walking into Cheers - so awesome!!  - Yes, I hugged a couple of people who are very dear to me and I haven't seen in 7 weeks. No one wore masks. We played three games of poker. We bet on whether the next customer in the bar would be a male or female. We bet on whether the next customer would have shoelaces or not. We bet on what color the next customer's underwear was. And I had my favorite vodka... Absolut Elyx. All is right with the world again. Honey goes back to work tomorrow. I will finally sleep well tonight... :tired::sleepy:


Do they have swisher sweets?


----------



## Dave D

Greta said:


> Today we got the results back from Honey's test last Tuesday - "Not detected".



Excellent news!!!!:twothumbs


----------



## Greta

raggie33 said:


> Do they have swisher sweets?



Uh... that's a negative, ghost rider...


----------



## matrixshaman

BREAKING: Researchers claim 100 percent cure rate of Covid-19 in 100+ patient trial conducted in Ecuador, using intravenous chlorine dioxide (MMS) - Jim Humble's very same MMS and while they gave it intravenously if you take it every hour per Humble's protocols I believe you will have the same results. Article here:

https://www.naturalnews.com/2020-05...-19-ecuador-intravenous-chlorine-dioxide.html

If you have heard negative things about Chlorine Dioxide (because of propaganda by Big Pharma since it could cause them to lose big $$ as it will CURE so many things and it is so cheap) before you make judgement please visit this web page which explains it all very well:
https://www.jordansather.com/blog/thetruthaboutmms

I've used it to cure a case of Lyme disease - tastes terrible but works great


----------



## WarriorOfLight

At all good to see things are moving into the right direction with corona. But one point must be clear to everyone. It is not over at all.  There are still countries that have it not under control. The corona infections in Brazil are rising, Russia still has a high daily infection rate. UK may be on the right way,USA also since the daily infection rate is slightly lower from day to day.

Also interesting to compare the curve form of the, lets say "top 10 countries" of the Johns Hopkins map (https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html). Than I am pretty sure it is definitely not over at all. Everyone can make their own thoughts about the numbers in the own country. If there is still only a low falling infection rate and you go back to normal than it is starting again....

My guess it that here and there a 2nd wave will also come in a few month when everyone things all is good. Life will be for all of us different for the next coming 12-15 month until a vaxine is available and everyone is able to get it.


----------



## chainsolid

Thailand COVID-19 All ok- all mall open but social distancing and , All citizen we safe alway , 
Friend in USA , He want to go back to thailand


----------



## Johnnyh

Greta said:


> I don't own a mask. Neither does Honey. We haven't worn one once since this whole mess started. In our city of 55,000 permanent residents, we currently have 52 confirmed cases in two and a half months - four deaths. Closest town to us is 40 miles away.
> 
> Today we got the results back from Honey's test last Tuesday - "Not detected".  - We immediately started getting ready to go to the cigar bar. When we got there is was like Norm walking into Cheers - so awesome!!  - Yes, I hugged a couple of people who are very dear to me and I haven't seen in 7 weeks. No one wore masks. We played three games of poker. We bet on whether the next customer in the bar would be a male or female. We bet on whether the next customer would have shoelaces or not. We bet on what color the next customer's underwear was. And I had my favorite vodka... Absolut Elyx. All is right with the world again. Honey goes back to work tomorrow. I will finally sleep well tonight... :tired::sleepy:



Happy news! Made my day...!


----------



## bykfixer

turbodog said:


> I read the article. Sounds like he's parroting Trump. So we disregard or trivialize the virus, or any virus, because people were going to die early anyway? WTH man?
> 
> There's a rather large coronavirus death gap that's being missed.
> 
> https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2020/04/16/tracking-covid-19-excess-deaths-across-countries



For the love of Pete, if Trump says drink plenty of water some would say "he says go drown yourself". Nobody is trivializing or discounting the veracity of covid 19 in the article. What the man is getting at is covid 19 is moving the expiration date of a whole lot of people forward. A lot of people's who's expiration date was not that far off. Like when my pop died. If he had covid 19 the day he died his death would probably be listed at covid 19. But since a head cold is not considered fatal his certificate said heart failure. He caught a cold. The post nasal drip led to pnuemonia. Pnuemonia caused a lack of oxygen, which led to his already weakened heart to shut down. Same thing happens to a lot of the folks being taken out by the effects of covid 19.

I think the article says just how scarey this thing is. There were people who had absolutely nothing wrong with them that this thing killed. So no, nobody is trivializing it in the article. The virus is actually being trivialized by stating it is wiping out way more people than it really is to promote shock and fear. When in fact it can and has only accelarated the demise of unhealthy people who's numbers are being used for sensationalizing a novel virus that is nowhere near as deadly as claimed. Again that hides the truth that potentially nobody is really unaffected. 

The super promotion of all those dead folks has a few generations of people walking around thinking "eh, it's just killing sick old people why should I care"…… By thinking that way it can cause people to drop their guard and you end up with a bunch of healthy people dieing too if it is as bad as some scientists say it is. Like causing menangitous, and all kinds of dreadful things being bantered around. 

It's so said to see how the name of a politician being mentioned from one side or the other side of the political spectrum can trigger an emotional response that causes folks to instantly misunderstand the facts of a given article. If you remove the "Trump said" out of the story it takes on a whole new meaning. But, see the typical modern press (again on either side) slid that "Trump said" in to trigger a response. For some "orange man bad", for others "it has to be true"……

It is a known fact that death counts by covid 19 are blown way out of proportion. That has the potential to trivialize just how deadly it might be given enough time. Flattening the curve only prolongs the time it takes to spread from host to host. Time for it to potentially do like the Spanish flu did. It bagan as a virus that killed the young. After a time it took out middle aged folks, then eventually the elderly. Autopsies have revealled it may have mutated into 3 distinct strains in a 2-3 year period. And to this day it still roams planet earth from host to host. At times it mutates into a strain we do not have herd immunity to and takes out 10's of thousands all over again. And thanks to some knucklehead in some lab somewhere we now have a novel virus that may do the same thing over the next century or more.


----------



## Poppy

Greta said:


> I don't own a mask. Neither does Honey. We haven't worn one once since this whole mess started. In our city of 55,000 permanent residents, we currently have 52 confirmed cases in two and a half months - four deaths. Closest town to us is 40 miles away.
> 
> Today we got the results back from Honey's test last Tuesday - "Not detected".  - We immediately started getting ready to go to the cigar bar. When we got there is was like Norm walking into Cheers - so awesome!!  - Yes, I hugged a couple of people who are very dear to me and I haven't seen in 7 weeks. No one wore masks. We played three games of poker. We bet on whether the next customer in the bar would be a male or female. We bet on whether the next customer would have shoelaces or not. We bet on what color the next customer's underwear was. And I had my favorite vodka... Absolut Elyx. All is right with the world again. Honey goes back to work tomorrow. I will finally sleep well tonight... :tired::sleepy:


Great news!!! :thumbsup:

Its amazing how different our realities can be.
In my town, we have a similar population of about 55,000, with a 2.3% of the population tested positive in the last two months. That's one person in each 43 people. Fortunately most of those people have resolved. 
We leveled off April 10, 2020 to 10-30 new positives a day, (yesterday an additional 22) bringing our current total positives to 1248 since March 18 (2 months ago).

Here's to wishing I was living in your reality at this time.

Sleep well, my friend. 
Poppy


----------



## ven

Great news greta


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

Shelter Sweets


----------



## Poppy

CG,
Wow!
I want to shelter at your house!


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

Poppy said:


> CG,
> Wow!
> I want to shelter at your house!



OK, but you have to help mow the lawn.


----------



## Poppy

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> OK, but you have to help mow the lawn.



OK... I have allergies, but I am ready!

As long as a sight of this won't scare your honey. The lovely Mrs. Gardiner


----------



## ven

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> Shelter Sweets




Oh my .....sweet! 

:wow:


----------



## turbodog

bykfixer said:


> ...if Trump says drink plenty of water some would say "he says go drown yourself"...
> 
> ...It is a known fact that death counts by covid 19 are blown way out of proportion...



I read the article, actually read it. "Parroting Trump" are the article's words. Trump's factual accuracy is abysmal, so that's a strike against ANYONE that repeats anything he says, writes, or tweets.

That's a strong assertion. Got any facts to back it up?

I included a link showing that covid deaths are UNDER attributed, and you can find many more.


----------



## Greta

Hey everyone - let's back off the politics and bashing of ANY political figures. Not productive - very subjective. 

Thanks much! Enjoy your day wherever you are and whatever you're doing. If you're reading this, you're alive - that's a good thing!


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Greta said:


> I don't own a mask. Neither does Honey. We haven't worn one once since this whole mess started. In our city of 55,000 permanent residents, we currently have 52 confirmed cases in two and a half months - four deaths. Closest town to us is 40 miles away.
> 
> Today we got the results back from Honey's test last Tuesday - "Not detected".  - We immediately started getting ready to go to the cigar bar. When we got there is was like Norm walking into Cheers - so awesome!!  - Yes, I hugged a couple of people who are very dear to me and I haven't seen in 7 weeks. No one wore masks. We played three games of poker. We bet on whether the next customer in the bar would be a male or female. We bet on whether the next customer would have shoelaces or not. We bet on what color the next customer's underwear was. And I had my favorite vodka... Absolut Elyx. All is right with the world again. Honey goes back to work tomorrow. I will finally sleep well tonight... :tired::sleepy:


That is nice, not only does he not have it but it somewhat proves to others that he is safe to be around and you are pretty much safe also. I am another one of those selfish evil hateful uncaring (insert more disparaging words here) persons that don't wear a mask. I figure if my body cannot fight it off when introduced to it I don't want to hide from it and hope that I never get it. My immune system seems to be rather resilient having not had the flu of any type since the late 80s so chances are my body already bounced it out of me a month ago when I was working. I'm somewhat enjoying this overpaid unemployment thing and glad for the extra money as I would not be able to make it on unemployment but now I'm doing better on it than I was working. My only issue is weight gain, too much stuff is shut down and finally the golf course and some of the parks are reopening but I feel sad for the kids this summer the pools aren't going to open at all and it does get hot enough here that some families that cannot afford to cool their house enough make up for it taking the kids to swim.


----------



## Poppy

Lynx_Arc said:


> That is nice, not only does he not have it but it somewhat proves to others that he is safe to be around and you are pretty much safe also. <SNIP>


It's a matter of perspective.

I can only speak to MY perception, not your's or anyone else's.

Initially, when people just started wearing masks around here, let's say 15% had them on, I wondered "does he/she have the virus?"
But later when everyone is wearing a mask, if I see someone without a mask on, in public, I'll give him a wide birth. My perception of that individual is NOT that he is safe, but rather that he is being "social" and being "cavalier", not particularly social distancing. He MAY be a carrier shedding virus.

This is MY perspective where 2.3% of people in my community have tested positive, in the last 60 days.


----------



## Greta

Poppy said:


> It's a matter of perspective.
> 
> I can only speak to MY perception, not your's or anyone else's.
> 
> ......
> 
> This is MY perspective where 2.3% of people in my community have tested positive, in the last 60 days.



And in the end, that is all that matters for any of us. We can only do what we feel is appropriate for our own circumstances. :shrug:

You brought up an interesting point - what do people perceive when someone is wearing a mask? At the Orange store where Honey works, the employees were/are discouraged from wearing masks because customers perceive it as the employees are "infected" or otherwise compromised. Not good for business. I suppose it has proved out to be an "ok" practice as we only have a .001% positive rate. Again... who knows? 

I posted previously about good decisions/bad decisions, good outcome/bad outcome. The funny thing about that is you can't go backwards with it. It does no good to play the "what if?" game. What if we hadn't done the "stay at home" thing and encouraged wearing masks and gloves? Would the rate of positives been higher? Did our practices mitigate the number of infections and losses? We'll never know. So even asking those questions is useless and a waste of time. In the end we can only do what we feel is appropriate for our own circumstances. And living out here in the Wild Wild West... well... for the first time in 25 years, I'm kinda happy about that 

OH! - and other than my own pool, my favorite resort pool is opening back up on Thursday. I'll be waiting til next week after the holiday weekenders have left to go with my girls for a lovely day of fun and adult beverages in the pool with the negative edge overlooking the beautiful Colorado River! :buddies::grouphug:


----------



## bigburly912

turbodog said:


> I read the article, actually read it. "Parroting Trump" are the article's words. Trump's factual accuracy is abysmal, so that's a strike against ANYONE that repeats anything he says, writes, or tweets.
> 
> That's a strong assertion. Got any facts to back it up?
> 
> I included a link showing that covid deaths are UNDER attributed, and you can find many more.



Actually the CDC itself backs up that the deaths are overinflated because even people that haven’t tested positive who are in high risk areas that die of anything similar were/are being recorded as covid-19 deaths. Read the CDC guidelines for reporting. Makes no sense really. That was brought up in this thread and there really is no argument against it. Now how many have been incorrectly reported we will never know. On the other spectrum who knows how many deaths were actually caused by this that weren’t recorded early on. Could be a wash for all we know. 

I’m still amazed that we had a few cases in that building in my town and it didn’t spread like wildfire. I can’t even describe to you all how this building is laid out. It’s a converted hotel from probably back in the 20s. Nothing was really done to contain it yet only those couple of people I first reported caught it. Makes you wonder how it’s been so bad in some places and seems to be nothing in others.


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

Poppy said:


> OK... I have allergies, but I am ready!
> 
> As long as a sight of this won't scare your honey. The lovely Mrs. Gardiner



I'm going to need to see more of your lawn before an actually invite is extended. Mine has become my escape this past month. I've applied moss killer .. twice, weed n feed and have started mowing it every four days. You'd be amazed at how many lawn care videos are on YouTube. 

I took this picture last week. It's [email protected]@King better, but still needs some loving attention.


----------



## P_A_S_1

Wearing masks is not about you but rather others. It helps prevent you from spreading it not catching it. Most don't know they have it and negative results from testing aren't always accurate. I kinda feel most people got it backwards, like they think the mask is for them to not get sick, which I guess is good because if they knew they were doing it for others I suspect more wouldn't wear them. A few years ago I had a bad respiratory issue that lasted months, almost a year, with complications. There's nothing worse then not being able to breath.


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

I ventured into the locally owned auto parts store a few days back. There were two of the same signs posted at the front counter. Paraphrasing, it read - Don't linger. Get what you need and get out. We don't really want to be here but we have been designated as essential. Your presence is jeopardizing our health. We want to get safely home to our families. etc. etc. 

I found it interesting that none of the employees were wearing a mask or gloves and there wasn't any hand sanitizer for customer use.


----------



## raggie33

Some people break the rules of social distancing just to **** me off somedays. Ok i know this is me being paranoid but damn im afraid so bad to go to store. Ps why are bean sprouts being horded?


----------



## Poppy

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> I'm going to need to see more of your lawn before an actually invite is extended. Mine has become my escape this past month. I've applied moss killer .. twice, weed n feed and have started mowing it every four days. You'd be amazed at how many lawn care videos are on YouTube.
> 
> I took this picture last week. It's [email protected]@King better, but still needs some loving attention.




I wanted to come out to your place to do some ride on lawn mower racing. 

Then after burning up the turf, have a few corona's and some of your masterful burgers.
:tinfoil:

My lawn is too pretty to tear it up!
:nana:


----------



## bykfixer

I was social distancing long before the phrase was coined. We called it 5' circle. (some call it 3' circle) 
Rule of thumb was two people holding an arm out won't touch each other. In general I avoided anywhere that required peoples presence in my 5' circle. Sporting events, music festivals etc. So it was no big adjustment when the cdc said to do it. I had to for years while taking care of my pop who had "under lying conditions" as they call it these days. Self quarentines were the norm during cold and flu season. 

At first when my work actually asked if my crew and I felt comfortable coming to work it was weird. Then I noticed memory loss, loss of focus, and a general listless feeling. I mentioned it to the crew who also said they were dealing with the same thing. We finally realized we were being paralyzed with fear. A good friend said "living in fear isn't living". My crew and I discussed the issue and decided to stop being scared of a door knob, a gas pump handle, a can of peas or a soda bottle. We discussed steps to reduce the potential of contracting the virus through common sense ideas and carry on as normal as practical. 

Now if somebody wants to wear a face covering, go for it. If not, so long as they aint hacking and coughing, touching a bunch of stuff or being irresponsible in general I don't cower in fear. But if they do, say like in a grocery store I won't break the 5' rule because I can easily toss a can of ravioli 25' or more. Kapow!! The thing I can't wrap my mind around is snitching on a neighbor who has a barbecue or three kids obviously not blood related walking down the street 2 feet apart. 

The other day I found myself in a unique situation where a person kept bumping into me. One of those loud obnoxious types that likely get enflamed really easy if you call them out. I was in a check line. I made sure Mrs Fixer was away from the person who was behind me wearing sandals. I stepped back a step ensuring I gently stepped on the persons toe and guess what? After an initial eruption the person appologized for being too close. Then stayed away. 

Life's short. You get one crack at it then you're dead. Trouble with being dead is it lasts so long.


----------



## raggie33

bykfixer said:


> I was social distancing long before the phrase was coined. We called it 5' circle. (some call it 3' circle)
> Rule of thumb was two people holding an arm out won't touch each other. In general I avoided anywhere that required peoples presence in my 5' circle. Sporting events, music festivals etc. So it was no big adjustment when the cdc said to do it. I had to for years while taking care of my pop who had "under lying conditions" as they call it these days. Self quarentines were the norm during cold and flu season.
> 
> At first when my work actually asked if my crew and I felt comfortable coming to work it was weird. Then I noticed memory loss, loss of focus, and a general listless feeling. I mentioned it to the crew who also said they were dealing with the same thing. We finally realized we were being paralyzed with fear. A good friend said "living in fear isn't living". My crew and I discussed the issue and decided to stop being scared of a door knob, a gas pump handle, a can of peas or a soda bottle. We discussed steps to reduce the potential of contracting the virus through common sense ideas and carry on as normal as practical.
> 
> Now if somebody wants to wear a face covering, go for it. If not, so long as they aint hacking and coughing, touching a bunch of stuff or being irresponsible in general I don't cower in fear. But if they do, say like in a grocery store I won't break the 5' rule because I can easily toss a can of ravioli 25' or more. Kapow!! The thing I can't wrap my mind around is snitching on a neighbor who has a barbecue or three kids obviously not blood related walking down the street 2 feet apart.
> 
> The other day I found myself in a unique situation where a person kept bumping into me. One of those loud obnoxious types that likely get enflamed really easy if you call them out. I was in a check line. I made sure Mrs Fixer was away from the person who was behind me wearing sandals. I stepped back a step ensuring I gently stepped on the persons toe and guess what? After an initial eruption the person appologized for being too close. Then stayed away.
> 
> Life's short. You get one crack at it then you're dead. Trouble with being dead is it lasts so long.


i 

Humans make me nervess . All my life i avoid human interaction


----------



## Kestrel

raggie33 said:


> Humans make me nervess . All my life i avoid human interaction


Well I'm happy you're here on the forum, raggie.


----------



## raggie33

Kestrel said:


> Well I'm happy you're here on the forum, raggie.


Ty online im very calm im lucky i found cpf.


----------



## Poppy

bykfixer said:


> <SNIP>
> 
> At first when my work actually asked if my crew and I felt comfortable coming to work it was weird. Then I noticed memory loss, loss of focus, and a general listless feeling. I mentioned it to the crew who also said they were dealing with the same thing. We finally realized we were being paralyzed with fear. <snip>


Honestly, I'm a little surprised such a question was asked of an outdoor construction crew. And further that they were being paralyzed with fear. More and more there are advertisements by health officials that there is free Psych counselling for those affected by the virus. They more and more are speaking of front line health care workers who may experience PTSD post traumatic stress disorder. I don't think the free services are limited to the front line defenders.



> Now if somebody wants to wear a face covering, go for it. <SNIP>


Each day, NY Governor Cuomo has a briefing that lasts about an hour. During his briefing, he emphasizes wearing a face mask when in public. It is not to protect oneself, but rather to protect those around you. They in turn are protecting you by wearing a mask. It is the respectful thing to do. It helps to reduce the rate of the spread, and helps to protect the innocent. 



> The other day I found myself in a unique situation where a person kept bumping into me. One of those loud obnoxious types that likely get enflamed really easy if you call them out. I was in a check line. I made sure Mrs Fixer was away from the person who was behind me wearing sandals. I stepped back a step ensuring I gently stepped on the persons toe and guess what? After an initial eruption the person appologized for being too close. Then stayed away.
> 
> Life's short. You get one crack at it then you're dead. Trouble with being dead is it lasts so long.


I'd say you handled that nicely. I think I would have been quicker to act and told him "HEY... SIX FEET!!!"

Like you, I don't like people crowding me, well before this corona stuff. Occasionally, not too often, I'll turn to someone and ask, "do you mind?... You're in my space."


----------



## LGT

I am so tired of wearing a mask. Going to try going into a supermarket tomorrow without one. Let’s see what happens. Just stay 6 feet away.


----------



## Poppy

When I go to the supermarket, I make a list with the items grouped as best as I can by the isles they'll be in. 
I do my best to be in and out in 20 minutes.

I put my mask on as I leave my car, and back off when I get back into the car.


----------



## raggie33

I hate when some one will be looking at a can of beans for 5 minutes i feel like saying its frigin beans grab a can and go


----------



## RedLED

Poppy said:


> When I go to the supermarket, I make a list with the items grouped as best as I can by the isles they'll be in.
> I do my best to be in and out in 20 minutes.
> 
> I put my mask on as I leave my car, and back off when I get back into the car.


Pop, 

I have been doing that exact routine. I am getting tired of wearing the mask, last time out it was so Goddamm hot I could hardly breath.


----------



## bykfixer

Poppy, 
It was shortly after the experts said 2.2 million people are going to die in the next 45 days if we don't do X, Y and Z. Then we were hit with a barage of new rules to follow while folks all around were losing their job as fast as ice melts in hadees. Then some who were sent home were taking pictures of people not 6 feet apart on a nearby project and sending them to "the man" who said "play by the new rules or you're outta here". More rules to follow with a requirement to carry authorized papers like we were in East Germany after WW2. They reduced our hours shortly after. 

Grocery store shelves looked like Soviet Russia while seasonal allergies caused us to think "uh oh I've got it too"…… people dressed like they were prepared for a chemical weapon attack frantically buying up every frozen pizza in the store, the governor imposing more rules each day limiting peoples ability to move about, family saying build a wall to keep those new yorkers out, church services banned, surgeries banned, dental appointments banned, shooting ranges deemed recreational thereby……banned. 
By the end of March many of us were feeling bewildered. My workload had doubled while my hours were reduced. Same for all of us as we have a deadline looming in the near future pandemic or not. We all decided panic is for losers, and pretended we were the mine workers at Chernobyl tasked with making sure the water supply did not become contaminated. Not some wreckless, dam the torpedoes notion but just keep your eye on the ball and get the job done. 

At the end of the project many of the people on the project are retiring. I am the pup at 56. Many on my project began their career around the time I was born. The last thing any of us want is to pass around some virus.


----------



## raggie33

Am i the only one who uses hand cleaner before they go in store?


----------



## jabe1

Nope. I use sanitizer before and after the store. Lately we’ve been having our groceries delivered; going without a few things which we don’t trust someone to pick for us.
Last time I went to the grocery, I noticed most people grab a shopping cart, then go get a wipe to clean the handle. That’s what scares me, as a heart patient; most don’t seem to be thinking things through. I see so many wearing masks only covering their mouths. I guess ignorance is bliss.


----------



## raggie33

Hiya i miss cleveland ohio! Another thing that scares me when they take off there mask to talk!


----------



## PhotonWrangler

jabe1 said:


> ...Last time I went to the grocery, I noticed most people grab a shopping cart, then go get a wipe to clean the handle. /QUOTE]
> 
> I've done this but made sure to get the cleaning solution on my hands as well, completely covering any part of my hands that touched the cart handle before sanitizing it. Although lately I've been wearing gloves (and a mask) in all stores.


----------



## Greta

bykfixer said:


> I was social distancing long before the phrase was coined. We called it 5' circle. (some call it 3' circle)
> ....



I call it "my bubble". I honestly didn't really realize I had a bubble until one day about 10 years ago I was working in a psychotherapy practice as a receptionist. You all know how it is in medical offices... there's that window you go to for check in, etc. Well this chick reached through the window and grabbed a pen out of the cup on my desk. Mind you.. she nearly knocked over a cup of pens sitting in the window for customer use. Without even thinking what I was doing, I just reacted - I snagged the pen out of her hand and pointed to the pen cup in the window and told her "this is my bubble. that's yours." She actually had the nerve to look at me and tell me "but I like your pen better". My reply to her was to pull a pen out of the customer cup, hand it to her, and tell her she can get a pen like mine at Staples. Meanwhile... this one is mine. She then went and told my boss what happened. I told my boss she can fire me if she wants but people need to stay out of my bubble. She didn't fire me 

I find that over the years I have gotten even more protective of my bubble. Most people I see on a regular basis at the cigar bar know all too well. I get teased all the time... "Oops! Sorry Greta (yes, they really do call me Greta)... didn't mean to invade your bubble!" - and they back off. It's all good  ... and people who don't know me but feel the need to get within 3 feet of me? "Hey! Hey! - *MY* bubble! Not yours!"... and they move. 

"Get off my lawn!!" :laughing:


----------



## Poppy

RedLED said:


> Pop,
> 
> I have been doing that exact routine. I am getting tired of wearing the mask, last time out it was so Goddamm hot I could hardly breath.


Yes RedLED, I fully understand.

I actually wear a protective mask, one that will protect ME. I have led such an isolated life for the past 8 weeks, that I am not concerned about passing anything on to anyone else.

If you are confident that you are not a carrier, having to bear the discomfort of a mask, must be ? Annoying? Because if you are not using a N95 mask, or a respirator mask, you are not protecting yourself. Well, not much.

I served at ground zero during 9/11 and although eventually given a respirator mask, it was so hot and uncomfortable, few of us wore it. I use it when I go shopping. It actually requires a forced inhalation, similar to the breaths I take when running a distance. In In huh, In In huh, In In huh. 

Our weather has been mild so far, for the most part in the 60's and I don't go out in public, other than to do some weekly shopping. Even half of the time, my daughter arranges a "shop from home" where they drop the groceries in my trunk, and I don't have to go into the store at all.


----------



## Poppy

raggie33 said:


> Am i the only one who uses hand cleaner before they go in store?


Raggie,
I usually wear gloves when I go into the store, then use the sanitizer wipes at the front of the store to wipe the handle fo the cart, and my hands after touching the cart. I then use the wipes to open freezer doors, and sometimes to select packages. 
When I get back into my car I use sanitizer.
When I get home, I sanitize the outside package of any food I am going to put away right away.
Frozen Pizzas are removed from their boxes, and put into the freezer. I open the box, and my grandson removes the pizza, and puts it into the freezer.

Overall, we use a sterile technique as much as is reasonable. Although, that which is reasonable today is not the same as what was reasonable 5 months ago.


----------



## bigburly912

If people had been this cautious in 2017-2018 for the flu we could have possibly saved 60000+ people. Last year we could have saved 30000+ Hmmmm.

Globally 700000+ people


----------



## Poppy

bigburly912 said:


> If people had been this cautious in 2017-2018 for the flu we could have possibly saved 60000+ people. Last year we could have saved 30000+ Hmmmm.
> 
> Globally 700000+ people


I miss your point.
In 2019-2020 how many could possibly be saved?


----------



## raggie33

bigburly912 said:


> If people had been this cautious in 2017-2018 for the flu we could have possibly saved 60000+ people. Last year we could have saved 30000+ Hmmmm.
> 
> Globally 700000+ people


I always been careful for A decade or more


----------



## bigburly912

It’s amazing how many people ignore the flu every year knowing how many people it kills. This new kid on the block comes along and people take a long hard look at their hygiene and start using “preventative measures” to keep themselves and others safe. Covid-19 is deadly no doubt and I’m not downplaying it at all. It’s just amazing that so many people ignore the flu each year. I’m pretty much just thinking at loud reading this thread and looking at numbers/articles. Wasn’t directed at you.


----------



## bigburly912

raggie33 said:


> I always been careful for A decade or more



Me too. I normally don’t travel at all during flu season except for work.


----------



## P_A_S_1

Never thought much about the flu until I got it. It was rough. Now I get a flu shot every year.


----------



## raggie33

bigburly912 said:


> Me too. I normally don’t travel at all during flu season except for work.


im germ phobic the flu is so darn aweful


----------



## Lynx_Arc

bigburly912 said:


> It’s amazing how many people ignore the flu every year knowing how many people it kills. This new kid on the block comes along and people take a long hard look at their hygiene and start using “preventative measures” to keep themselves and others safe. Covid-19 is deadly no doubt and I’m not downplaying it at all. It’s just amazing that so many people ignore the flu each year. I’m pretty much just thinking at loud reading this thread and looking at numbers/articles. Wasn’t directed at you.



The problem is your thinking about "saving" lives doesn't account for the fact that people getting sick trains their bodies to fight off things better than if they avoid them entirely. I recall hearing long ago about a woman that was talking to a doctor that her kids were always getting sick and he found out she was constantlly sanitizing everything and told her have her kids eat dirt. When I was young it was common for children to get the mumps and chicken pox and when one of the kids got it people would take all their kids over to that house and purposely infect their children with it to get it over with making them immune to it. 
Basically people today have it right those who are at risk when there is flu are the ones that need to do the distancing and sanitizing and avoiding while the rest of us need to be out there living normal lives not in fear and when we get sick it "helps" our body get stronger and stronger against viruses and flus out there which actually HELPS those with weak immune systems as when we are strong we don't get sick and pass it on to them, but when we all hide and don't get strong immune systems by avoiding bugs then we are nowhere near the herd with immunity that protects the weak but rather we are the weak too.


----------



## Dave D

A pleasant story from the United Kingdom, Captain Tom Moore (Retired) asked for sponsorship from the public to do a 100th Birthday walk, he wanted to raise £500,000 for the National Health Service to help protect NHS Staff, patients and volunteers.

To date he has raised £32,796,485 (over $40m) he has been made an honorary Colonel. He received thousands of 100th Birthday cards from all over the world and today it has been announced that he is to be Knighted by the Queen.







Well done Sir Tom!!​


----------



## raggie33

Good news it now appears you cant recatch covid19 twice


----------



## WarriorOfLight

Dave D said:


> A pleasant story from the United Kingdom, Captain Tom Moore (Retired) asked for sponsorship from the public to do a 100th Birthday walk, he wanted to raise £500,000 for the National Health Service to help protect NHS Staff, patients and volunteers.
> 
> To date he has raised £32,796,485 (over $40m) he has been made an honorary Colonel. He received thousands of 100th Birthday cards from all over the world and today it has been announced that he is to be Knighted by the Queen.
> 
> <picture removed>
> 
> Well done Sir Tom!! ​


That is a nice story. Also in Germany the news in TV were talking about him a few weeks ago. He is a really great person... :bow::bow::bow::bow::bow::bow::bow::bow::bow::bow::bow::bow::bow::bow::bow::bow:

We all may think about the time after corona and better stay together, work together, be good neighbours and friends instead of fighting against each other.


----------



## bykfixer

Cool story Dave. 
At first I thought well heck yeah Captain Tom made it after all but then it occured to me it was Major Tom calling ground control……

I totally get the pen thing too Greta. I used to work for an engineer who would grab any ole pen from anywhere laying around to sign a document then throw a temper tantrum because it skipped at first. He would look at me and say "you have a good pen, let me borrow it please". I often wondered why he never kept a good pen on his person. A very stubborn man he was. One day I realized another engineer (John) would try a pen out and if it skipped would leave it in a conspicuous location knowing Bob would grab it and use it at some point. Then rant and rave about lousy pens for an hour. (see Bob & John stories in the once upon a time thread). 

I've always kept a good writing pen nearby. I have good writing pens stashed throught my home since I know the one good one in the pen cup is going to get gone someday. Those $2 ones at the Staples checkout counter are actually pretty good pens. But now that the corona is going around it is even more important to have a personal pen. At one testing center near me, when you sign the form they tell you to keep the pen. But in that same vein, during cold and flu season when someone hands you a doc to sign and a pen I say "nawp, I got my own thank ya".


----------



## bigburly912

Lynx_Arc said:


> The problem is your thinking about "saving" lives doesn't account for the fact that people getting sick trains their bodies to fight off things better than if they avoid them entirely. I recall hearing long ago about a woman that was talking to a doctor that her kids were always getting sick and he found out she was constantlly sanitizing everything and told her have her kids eat dirt. When I was young it was common for children to get the mumps and chicken pox and when one of the kids got it people would take all their kids over to that house and purposely infect their children with it to get it over with making them immune to it.
> Basically people today have it right those who are at risk when there is flu are the ones that need to do the distancing and sanitizing and avoiding while the rest of us need to be out there living normal lives not in fear and when we get sick it "helps" our body get stronger and stronger against viruses and flus out there which actually HELPS those with weak immune systems as when we are strong we don't get sick and pass it on to them, but when we all hide and don't get strong immune systems by avoiding bugs then we are nowhere near the herd with immunity that protects the weak but rather we are the weak too.



Oh no. I’m with you 10000000% I don’t understand everyone else’s thinking on the matter.


----------



## bigburly912

raggie33 said:


> Good news it now appears you cant recatch covid19 twice



Not according to nbc this morning. So once again who or what do we believe


----------



## bigburly912

Good luck to everyone. There’s so much bad information everywhere this is getting even more ridiculous than it already was.


----------



## bykfixer

Eh, just keep it tuned to the CPF corona virus thread (part two) for action, intrigue, false data and corrections to said false data.
Leave it to a bunch of flashlight nuts to get the real truth out. No fake lumens here. No fake news here. Just as it should be.

And just to clear up a matter, it is still unknown if you can recatch covid-19. Some say those getting it a second time were not completely rid of it the first time. Some speculate it has already mutated while others figure it's just a case where some become immune and others do not. It is still too soon to know right now.


----------



## Kestrel

I've been carrying two pens for years; my Parker plus a loaner - so if someone asks, they're not using my personal one. 



bykfixer said:


> [...] it is still unknown if you can recatch covid-19. Some say those getting it a second time were not completely rid of it the first time. Some speculate it has already mutated while others figure it's just a case where some become immune and others do not. It is still too soon to know right now.


Adding the factor of unreliable testing (primarily false positives in this case, but false negatives do seem to be occuring as well), is another reason to be skeptical of the reinfection.

Normal flu is also circulating, and symptoms of that plus a false positive test would easily initiate this narrative. I have no opinion either way, just healthy skepticism.


----------



## Dave D

I've been following Dr John Campbell's daily updates on YouTube and he reports on medical data regarding the progress of the Covid19 pandemic. 

The latest info about infected people not getting it again has come from a South Korean medical report where they have established that people that are being tested weeks after having the virus and testing positive again are not contagious and do not have symptoms, it appear that the tests are showing the remains of non functioning virus.

The virus is still so new that new data is becoming available all of the time, this is confusing because a search of the internet will display all data not just the latest.

Dr Campbell is not a professional broadcaster and does occasionally make mistakes when reading things out but if you follow what he is saying you understand if he's slipped up.



In his words "It is brilliant news".


----------



## Dave D

Some restrictions are being eased in Spain, we have been in lockdown for 10 weeks this weekend.

On Monday we moved to Stage 1 in our province (County), we can now go out for pleasure not just for food, collecting medication from the pharmacy or visit the Doctors.

Social distancing is still required and as of tomorrow wearing of masks will be compulsory in all public places, indoor and outdoor, where 2m spacing cannot be maintained. Masks are also compulsory on all public transport.

Today I took my bike out for the first time in 10 weeks, to go and have new tyres fitted, and as soon as I got off the mountain and onto some decent tarmac I was grinning like a cheshire cat!!!

The staff at the tyre centre weren't wearing masks or gloves, neither were the delivery drivers that kept arriving. I stayed outside the premises and shaded under a weeping fig until the tyres were changed.

They did have alcohol gel on the counter, which I made use of after having to entering my pin number into the card machine, also gave my key and fob a liberal coating as the staff had handled that.

Things are definitely not going to be back to normal for some time.






I took the scenic route home!! :thumbsup:


----------



## P_A_S_1

I don't know if it's as much bad information as it is incomplete information. They're learning everything as they go so apparent contradictions and reversals are bound to be. Some of what they said initially that they have since changed opinions on isn't necessarily wrong as it's less correct, like the masks. Remember when they said they could put you in more danger initially, some truth there, i never touched my face area as much as when I wear a mask. Adjusting, on/off, etc..... yet the protective nature they offer to others outweighs that now.


----------



## bykfixer

Dave, do you see "purell" being set out on counters, desks and other table type platforms with public access being a normal sight for the forseeable future? 

We already had it all over the place in America but most ignored it pre-pandemic. Now that stuff is gone and replaced with spray bottles of home made concoctions because purell is like liquid gold right now.


----------



## Dave D

The bigger chain shops have Purell or similar at their entrances and food stores require masks and gloves to be worn.

Smaller shops ask for gloves and masks but don't provide them, I'm having difficulty getting disposable gloves at the moment, the shelves are empty and signs restricting numbers per customer when they are in stock.

Restaurants are allowed to open their terraces to 30% capacity provided that social distancing is maintained but I've not ventured out to any, I don't think I'll be doing so for the rest of the year.

I think mask will be here for some time together with hand sanitizer. I think disposable gloves will become less popular as the temperature rises here.

There is already talk that when the tourist season opens, at some point in the future, that communal swimming pools in hotels and apartments will not be allowed to be used.

If I recall correctly random testing here has only estimated that 10% of the Spanish population has been exposed to the virus, so herd immunity is not going to be effective anytime soon.

It will be very interesting to see how quickly cases of infection begin to creep up again with the easing, or not.


----------



## JimIslander

bigburly912 said:


> It’s amazing how many people ignore the flu every year knowing how many people it kills. This new kid on the block comes along and people take a long hard look at their hygiene and start using “preventative measures” to keep themselves and others safe. Covid-19 is deadly no doubt and I’m not downplaying it at all. It’s just amazing that so many people ignore the flu each year. I’m pretty much just thinking at loud reading this thread and looking at numbers/articles. Wasn’t directed at you.



I think it's because it only kills one in 11,666 people. People also ignore five out of the top 7 killers just by getting fat. These diseases account for 42% of all deaths in the USA.


----------



## JimIslander

Just remember folks, the Spanish Flu killed 1 out of every 153 people in the USA in 1918/19. And we went back to normal after that.

I'm not at all worried that we won't get back to normal, and probably sooner rather than later.


----------



## raggie33

JimIslander said:


> Just remember folks, the Spanish Flu killed 1 out of every 153 people in the USA in 1918/19. And we went back to normal after that.
> 
> I'm not at all worried that we won't get back to normal, and probably sooner rather than later.


But dont we have way more people per square mile now? So it will spread faster? Im wrong a lot so im just wondering


----------



## SCEMan

raggie33 said:


> But dont we have way more people per square mile now? So it will spread faster? Im wrong a lot so im just wondering



No, you're correct. It's hard to compare early 20th century's mostly rural America to today's largely urban environment


----------



## turbodog

bigburly912 said:


> Actually the CDC itself backs up that the deaths are overinflated because even people that haven’t tested positive who are in high risk areas that die of anything similar were/are being recorded as covid-19 deaths. Read the CDC guidelines for reporting. Makes no sense really. That was brought up in this thread and there really is no argument against it. Now how many have been incorrectly reported we will never know. On the other spectrum who knows how many deaths were actually caused by this that weren’t recorded early on. Could be a wash for all we know.
> 
> I’m still amazed that we had a few cases in that building in my town and it didn’t spread like wildfire. I can’t even describe to you all how this building is laid out. It’s a converted hotel from probably back in the 20s. Nothing was really done to contain it yet only those couple of people I first reported caught it. Makes you wonder how it’s been so bad in some places and seems to be nothing in others.



If you are going to quote me, then do me a favor and read the link.

It did not reference deaths attributed to covid. It references the significant gap between average historically recorded total deaths per day and current total deaths per day. Even accounting for the 'generous' attribution to covid, there's STILL a quite significant gap. Sort of 'top down' accounting instead of 'bottom up'. In short, covid is causing more deaths than we are recording.


----------



## turbodog

bykfixer said:


> Poppy,
> It was shortly after the experts said 2.2 million people are going to die in the next 45 days if we don't do X, Y and Z. Then we were hit with a barage of new rules to follow while folks all around were losing their job as fast as ice melts in hadees. Then some who were sent home were taking pictures of people not 6 feet apart on a nearby project and sending them to "the man" who said "play by the new rules or you're outta here". More rules to follow with a requirement to carry authorized papers like we were in East Germany after WW2. They reduced our hours shortly after.
> 
> Grocery store shelves looked like Soviet Russia while seasonal allergies caused us to think "uh oh I've got it too"…… people dressed like they were prepared for a chemical weapon attack frantically buying up every frozen pizza in the store, the governor imposing more rules each day limiting peoples ability to move about, family saying build a wall to keep those new yorkers out, church services banned, surgeries banned, dental appointments banned, shooting ranges deemed recreational thereby……banned.
> By the end of March many of us were feeling bewildered. My workload had doubled while my hours were reduced. Same for all of us as we have a deadline looming in the near future pandemic or not. We all decided panic is for losers, and pretended we were the mine workers at Chernobyl tasked with making sure the water supply did not become contaminated. Not some wreckless, dam the torpedoes notion but just keep your eye on the ball and get the job done.
> 
> At the end of the project many of the people on the project are retiring. I am the pup at 56. Many on my project began their career around the time I was born. The last thing any of us want is to pass around some virus.



We were/are seeing the lack of preparation (planning-wise) for a respiratory-born pandemic.

In the beginning, before countermeasures, daily infection increases, in MS, were roughly 50%. That's PER DAY. So yes, unabated, it would have continued to run wild and deaths would have been off the charts.


----------



## SCEMan

Hopefully some good news suggesting the death rate may be much lower than thought.

"The collaborative study from USC and the county's department of public health found that more than 4% of those tested had antibodies to the coronavirus. If those results were extrapolated to LA County's population of about 8 million adults, that means an estimated 360,000 adults in Los Angeles County had at some point gotten the infection, many of them without realizing it, the researchers say."

https://abc7.com/health/usc-study-more-than-360000-in-la-county-may-have-had-coronavirus/6197585/


----------



## PhotonWrangler

It's interesting that the tests that look for genetic material from the virus can be triggered by fragments of virus that are no longer viable. This is kind of a good news / bad news thing. The good news is that the tests are sensitive enough to pick up very small hints of the virus. The bad news is that it can't tell us directly whether the person is still contagious.

I know that a scanning electron microscope can see the virus and would enable a scientist to determine whether the virus was intact or deactivated, but as far as I know this is not practical for regular patient assessments. Please enlighten me if I'm missing something here.


----------



## RedLED

JimIslander said:


> Just remember folks, the Spanish Flu killed 1 out of every 153 people in the USA in 1918/19. And we went back to normal after that.
> 
> I'm not at all worried that we won't get back to normal, and probably sooner rather than later.


This recovery will be very long, very long.


----------



## raggie33

Just got back from store not one mask and one guy must of been trying to smell my hair. I was about to say back off in not so nice words .but im trying to be a better person so i just steped out of line and went to the end


----------



## knucklegary

DD, What a coastal view! and fresh rubber on the road..

I can't think of a better way to spend the day mi amigo!


----------



## Dave D

knucklegary said:


> DD, What a coastal view! and fresh rubber on the road..
> 
> I can't think of a better way to spend the day mi amigo!



The view inland isn't bad either!! :twothumbs


----------



## ven

Stunning Dave, you need a drone to fly over there! Just got the mavic air 2(not tried out yet). But would love that play ground to fly in.


----------



## bykfixer

PhotonWrangler said:


> It's interesting that the tests that look for genetic material from the virus can be triggered by fragments of virus that are no longer viable. This is kind of a good news / bad news thing. The good news is that the tests are sensitive enough to pick up very small hints of the virus. The bad news is that it can't tell us directly whether the person is still contagious.
> 
> I know that a scanning electron microscope can see the virus and would enable a scientist to determine whether the virus was intact or deactivated, but as far as I know this is not practical for regular patient assessments. Please enlighten me if I'm missing something here.



Spot on old boy. 

Now the results are results from a sample, but is there any live virus lingering somewhere like say the kidney? 

In other words the sample is a sample of free flowing fragments. 
Think of it like a colesterol check. Yeah levels in a sample may say this or that about what freely flows through the blood but are there any large collections of it in some areas not freely flowing? 

Or like cancer.……sometimes a person is deemed cancer free but then ends up sick again. They are free of detectable cancer cells. Yet it seems at times the cancer returns. 


When I first heard of a negative covid 19 test it was said it was when no detectable virus remained for 2 tests at 7 days apart. That meant 14 days after symptoms had completely ceased. In mild cases they said 4-6 weeks to be covid free. In other words 1-2 weeks for onset, 2 weeks ill and 2 more to be deemed covid free. In more severe cases up to 3 months before being completely covid free. It seems in order to get folks back to work at the factory or hospital they check for viable virus. In other words can those samples grow new virus? Is this leading to what is being thought of as re-infection? 

That is why the numbers of sick were like 100:1 for sick versus recovered at first. We may never know the true rate of infection since it seems lots of folks carry it around without symptoms. Unless they check every single person it will always be an educated guess. Same with the fatality rate. Now that we are checking for dead covid instead of no covid is that going to lead to some folks having a reoccurance out in the work place? 

Now that time has passed the true picture is way less fuzzy, but it will be quite a while before we know what this virus did or did not do. Perhaps a generation. Once the pandemic is done there's still all of that data to sort out. We think we are smarter but we are not. We just have more sophisticated equipment, but a sophisticated tool is only as capable as the person using it. 

It's like a giant asteroid heading towards the planet this pandemic is. We cannot stop it with current technology. What we can do with careful consideration is minimize the carnage from the asteroid along with the carnage of minimizing the carnage of the asteroid. Do we trample over a slower moving victim while fleeing the impact zone like some fire in a movie theatre? In this case the worlds economy being the victim. Some say yes. Some say no. 

The pandemic will run its course and the human race will survive. Mistakes will be made. It's all the misinformation that causes people to lurch in one direction or another. I know people who think it is a giant hoax. I know others cowering in their homes in fear who think any minute it will burst through the door and murder them. It is best to be somewhere in the middle, knowing it is real, preparing for it and doing what they can to reduce the liklihood of it reaching them. Try to be the one to reduce the spread and we will all be better off for it.


----------



## Poppy

PhotonWrangler said:


> It's interesting that the tests that look for genetic material from the virus can be triggered by fragments of virus that are no longer viable. This is kind of a good news / bad news thing. The good news is that the tests are sensitive enough to pick up very small hints of the virus. The bad news is that it can't tell us directly whether the person is still contagious.
> 
> I know that a scanning electron microscope can see the virus and would enable a scientist to determine whether the virus was intact or deactivated, but as far as I know this is not practical for regular patient assessments. Please enlighten me if I'm missing something here.


I watched that video posted by Dave D of Dr Campbell's discussion of a South Korean study. See #799.
I have the same understanding as you. You're not missing something.

One of the remaining questions, is how long a person will be immune, once he/she has cleared the virus.
He suspects that it will be similar to other corona type viruses and immunity will be 1- 2 years, but he states that the answer to that question is still unknown.


----------



## Poppy

bykfixer said:


> <SNIP>
> 
> When I first heard of a negative covid 19 test it was said it was when no detectable virus remained for 2 tests at 7 days apart. That meant 14 days after symptoms had completely ceased.


No, not negative test, but *recovered*... they wanted the patient to be 14 days symptom free, AND have a negative test at that time before they would be deemed recovered, and allowed to return to work. Yes, I don't recall the time frame, but a person needed to have 2 negative tests.



> In mild cases they said 4-6 weeks to be covid free. In other words 1-2 weeks for onset, 2 weeks ill and 2 more to be deemed covid free. In more severe cases up to 3 months before being completely covid free. It seems in order to get folks back to work at the factory or hospital they check for *viable virus*.


As stated previously the tests they are using can not differentiate whether the virus is *viable or not*. Therefore they are not testing for viability. That is what was, recently reported by the S Koreans.



> In other words can those samples grow new virus? Is this leading to what is being thought of as re-infection?
> 
> <SNIP>


Dr. Campbell give a good explanation of the confusion about reinfection. You can see his video here #799


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

RedLED said:


> This recovery will be very long, very long.



People need to go back to work. We need to provide for our families. There's no such thing as free money. The cost of continuing the shelter will be devastating.


----------



## bykfixer




----------



## RedLED

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> People need to go back to work. We need to provide for our families. There's no such thing as free money. The cost of continuing the shelter will be devastating.


This will be a long nightmare. I lost several hundred-thousand dollars in billing faster than you can say Dr. Fauci. Gone, and these were scheduled years out with advance trips to the locations.


----------



## Poppy

RedLED said:


> This will be a long nightmare. I lost several hundred-thousand dollars in billing faster than you can say Dr. Fauci. Gone, and these were scheduled years out with advance trips to the locations.


Yes Red,
I am sorry for your losses.
Certainly there are many small mom, and pop businesses, whose losses may be much less, but just as devastating, or even more to them. 

Except for those who have been able to continue to work, or found that they can work from home, and hope that they will be allowed to continue to do so, this has been, and will continue to be a devastating conundrum.

It may be a time that some of us change careers.

We are going through an event that will certainly go down in the history books.
Perhaps as an expert photographer, you might consider creating a photographic account of this time in history.

True, it may not pay what you are accustomed to and the book may end up on the Barnes and Noble discount table, but one never knows.


----------



## ven

apple update in UK today IOS13.5. Now takes straight to pass code saving seconds, if detects you wearing a mask. The little things in life and all that


----------



## Lynx_Arc

I hear they are coming out with a new TV series..... The Covid Ranger....... and the people say: who wasn't that masked man?


----------



## archimedes

Nineteen Eighty-Four telescreen technology, now here in twenty twenty ....


----------



## knucklegary

Dave D said:


> The view inland isn't bad either!! :twothumbs



Am i the only person who has noticed how clean the air has become since the lock down?
Not to provoke global warming pros or cons, but lately the air is so clean i can taste the brine



(-;


----------



## scout24

Beautiful pics, KG..


----------



## bykfixer

Ok so mask requirements are being discussed everywhere. 
Some of the data comes from hamsters being tested in China. 

Two cages with hamsters. One cage sprayed with lots of droplets. One with a few droplets. 
More hamsters got sick in the cage with more infected droplets. 

What that tells me? Hamsters get covid-19 too.


----------



## knucklegary

Thanks Scout, Upper photo is Dave's hood in Espania, I'm guessing around San Sebastian?

Lower photo is my home Manresa beach, CA.. 

A few weeks ago we had our first great white shark attack about 100 yards south, to the left of photo

Needless to say this beach is closed, 2 klicks in either direction

If Cvd19 hasn't been enough, this certainly dampens my future water time.. Only point breaks for me at looow tides


----------



## ven

There is another way of looking at it Mike, wearing a mask, even if it gives 60% or 70% protection(read somewhere). Depending how much of the covid you get(breath in or swallow or? ), does effect how ill you get. So a small dose of covid could mean you get rough for a week. Large dose could mean a lot worse. I remember reading about it, a scientist so of course who knows exactly. I wear a mask, simply to protect others. I would be happier if others did the same to protect me. If i walk into it in an isle, or someone coughs on me, with a mask i will get limited protection. So in my thinking, i should get less of the virus to start with, hopefully not be as ill from it. Could be completely wrong, but thats my thinking so far on it.

Stay safe , hope you all have a great weekend ahead CPF


----------



## bykfixer

With all of this mask or no mask discussion nobody is noticing that nobody is talking about eye covering when statistics over the years shows folks who wear glasses get less colds and flu than those who don't. 

The eyeball a wonderful place for a virus to get in. While the experts tout making laws based on the air hamsters breath being sprayed with droplets they are really leaving an uneducated population feeling secure even though two large parts of the face are unprotected all too often. 
If you think you need a face covering then you should also wear eye covering.


----------



## Dave D

knucklegary said:


> Upper photo is Dave's hood in Espania, I'm guessing around San Sebastian?



Too cold for me up there! LOL

Malaga Province on the Mediterranean coast, the photo with the sea has Malaga City centre right.


----------



## P_A_S_1

knucklegary said:


> Am i the only person who has noticed how clean the air has become since the lock down?
> Not to provoke global warming pros or cons, but lately the air is so clean i can taste the brine
> 
> 
> 
> (-;



Yep. That and the lack of traffic are the two good things from this mess. I hate driving and traffic but now it's a breeze.


----------



## ven

bykfixer said:


> With all of this mask or no mask discussion nobody is noticing that nobody is talking about eye covering when statistics over the years shows folks who wear glasses get less colds and flu than those who don't.
> 
> The eyeball a wonderful place for a virus to get in. While the experts tout making laws based on the air hamsters breath being sprayed with droplets they are really leaving an uneducated population feeling secure even though two large parts of the face are unprotected all too often.
> If you think you need a face covering then you should also wear eye covering.




Very good point, i wear safety specs to which add to the pita. I still think a full face screen is the best choice as nothing is getting through the plastic/perspex . Yes around maybe, but a mask worn with, should help reduce significantly further.


----------



## Poppy

Masks or not?

There is so much banter about masks, and most of it wrong.

1. cloth face masks, will NOT protect the wearer!
2. paper surgical masks, will NOT protect the wearer.
3. N95 masks will NOT protect the wearer IF IT IS NOT PROPERLY SEALED (worn with a tight fit)
4. even respirator masks will NOT protect the wearer IF IT IS NOT PROPERLY SEALED!

I believe that much of what we are told, or NOT told, is to control the masses. 
1. N95 masks are in short supply, and are needed for important people... our front line workers.
2. If the masses were constantly informed that ONLY N95 masks can protect them, they would be in shorter supply than they are, and at 10 times the price.
3. Although some politicians, are honest about the home made, or surgical masks, that they are to protect OTHERS, most don't stress, that point. 
3 a. I think that MANY people think the use of a mask protects themselves too, and THAT is why we have such compliance in their use.
b. Most people do not pay attention to detail, therefore they do not understand that the cloth mask or surgical mask will NOT protect them. In a way, that is a good thing, because in their ignorance they are reducing the spread of the virus to other people, should they be a carrier.

Initially we were told that it is NOT AIRborne.
Later an expert here or there would let it slip that it is Aerosolized. (I think that is the same thing, but sounds less frightening)
Now they admit that it IS Aerosolized, and once in a while I've heard an expert start to say that it is airborne, and catch him/herself and change the word to aerosolized.

A month ago, I posted what my brother told us how we should dress and protect ourselves. 
One of the things was to wear eye protection, preferably goggles.

A week or two ago, there was a person, ( I think he was an MD) who traveled on a airplane, wearing a N95 mask, and gloves. He contracted covid. During the interview, he stated that he thinks it got in through his eyes, from the air.


----------



## Poppy

When I go food shopping, I go at 6:00 AM during seniors hour.
I wear a respirator mask.
It is uncomfortable, and stresses me a little because it requires a forced inspiration.
I breath ... In In huh, In In huh, In In huh, as though I was out for a jog.

I don't wear goggles, but I do wear glasses.

I take my shoes off outside, and my outer shirt or jacket.
Leave that covid shi# outside.
I then take my morning shower.

When the store is very empty, I might undo the bottom strap, and allow the rubber nose/mouth cup to have a looser fit.
I noticed that as I walked through the soap isle, I could smell the soap. I pushed the mouth cup into my face for a tighter fit, and the smell was instantly gone.

If you are wearing a mask of any type, and can smell anything other than your breath, it is NOT protecting YOU!







Here is my brother's recommendation posted in the original coronavirus thread:

 My brother has had 80 hours of bio-hazmat training and has spent 200 hours in hazmat gear, made these recommendations to us as family members.

Stay home
If you do go out, dress in layers, with the outermost layer a rain suit.
Take your outer layer off, outside.
Wear a mask
Wear a face shield, or at least glasses. or goggles.
Don't bring your shoes into the house.

When you come inside, take your daily shower.

Don't go food shopping, but rather have it delivered, other than to go to a farmer's market.
Leave food outside the house for a few days, and or disinfect it before you bring it into the house.

Certainly... all good advice.


----------



## PhotonWrangler

UK researchers have discovered that severely ill Covid-10 patients have extremely low T-cell counts. There are not sure why yet, however there is an established treatment for low T-cells in other disorders - Interleukin 7. There's a group that's going to test this idea with Covid patients.


----------



## Poppy

PhotonWrangler said:


> UK researchers have discovered that severely ill Covid-10 patients have extremely low T-cell counts. There are not sure why yet, however there is an established treatment for low T-cells in other disorders - Interleukin 7. There's a group that's going to test this idea with Covid patients.


I'd be interested to know... which came first, the chicken or the egg.
If you follow this, please keep us updated.
Thanks


----------



## raggie33

Here is free advice trust your doctor before a politician. Dont take any meds unless your doctor tell you to take them


----------



## bykfixer

The chicken came first poppy. Something had to keep the egg warm long enough to hatch. 


Man, I finally found some data on the max temperature potential survival rate of this new virus. It looks like if it lingers on surfaces up to 100 degrees F (38c) the thing lives X hours as if it were in a comfy climate. No wonder it spreads in temperate zones. 
I chuckled reading a bunch of lab coat wearing types at research gate having a heated exchange about it. It is still too soon to know for sure what minimum and maximum temperature and humidity the thing can survive it but it appears to be pretty freaking tough compared to previous viruses. There were links to papers with a lot of long haired speak that was way over my head such as how long they incubated samples, what rpms they spun it at for X period of time etc. 

I knew after a bunch of reading way back in March they knew it survived beyond the climate range of SARS etc but no range had been definitively decided on. Still hasn't but it does seem to have a reduced spread rate as the weather gets warmer and more humid. As summer passes there may be more known. Yet with so many people staying indoors in the novel corona friendly climates it may not matter much. 

Wash your hands, stay 6 feet apart, don't touch your face.


----------



## Dave D

My understanding of mask wearing is that it is most effective for preventing cross contamination when worn by the infected, who don't know that they are infected, therefore any mask with an exhaust valve will not be as effective at reducing cross contamination.

Even a cloth mask will reduce the velocity of moisture containing the virus and therefore reduce the distance that it is spread during coughing.


----------



## raggie33

Dave D said:


> My understanding of mask wearing is that it is most effective for preventing cross contamination when worn by the infected, who don't know that they are infected, therefore any mask with an exhaust valve will not be as effective at reducing cross contamination.
> 
> Even a cloth mask will reduce the velocity of moisture containing the virus and therefore reduce the distance that it is spread during coughing.



Hardly anyone wears them in my town i wear mine for the reasons you posted above


----------



## Lynx_Arc

I heard today that the CDC says that the virus is hard to get from a flat surface not sure what that totally means for sure.


----------



## raggie33

Some say its there right not to wear a mask well thats true. But mask keep you safe as it keeps us safe. Ps i had to clean up this post to keep from breaking rules and to try to be nice, even thou im in a jerk mood lately


----------



## P_A_S_1

Dave D said:


> My understanding of mask wearing is that it is most effective for preventing cross contamination when worn by the infected, who don't know that they are infected, therefore any mask with an exhaust valve will not be as effective at reducing cross contamination.
> 
> Even a cloth mask will reduce the velocity of moisture containing the virus and therefore reduce the distance that it is spread during coughing.



Bingo. It's about protecting others and slowing the spread, not about protecting you.


----------



## turbodog

Poppy said:


> Masks or not?
> 
> There is so much banter about masks, and most of it wrong....



To poke at you a little... does that also include your post(s)?

It's not that simple. Even a halfway draped hanky protects everyone. The asymptomatic person does not spread it (as much). This protects others. So, someone else's mask protects YOU. And your mask protects THEM. So we all win.

If the common man will wear a mask, the people in medical will not need as many masks. Not will they be exposed to as many sick people. You can ask my wife all about her time on the front line medical field, as well as my cousin (front line), and aunt (front line).

Regardless of gov't mandated 'stuff', the world as we know it is on 'pause' right now. There's enough people that have drastically altered their life voluntarily that the economic fallout was inevitable.


----------



## bykfixer

From time to time Mrs Fixer and I go check out the community and what was once a summer carni town in December it is slowly been returning to normal. Tonight, good gosh. The tourists have returned to carni-town. 

On the commute home from work the interstate was packed with travellers. I suppose the numbers are down over last year but there sure were a ton of people heading north and south at 2pm. 

We stopped at an ice cream shop that had recently reopened and they had a ten person limit. Folks voluntarily waited outside for people to leave when there were ten folks inside already. There was nobody outside halting people because they did not need to. A policeman walked up and remarked how it was a nice site to see. He was there for a milkshake, not a shakedown btw. 

The parking lot was packed with people enjoying ice cream. It was a nice site. Lots of happy people and eaves dropping it sounded like it was folks who had been hunkered down and were just venturing out for the first time in several weeks. While setting in the parking lot ourselves we saw what seemed like 10x the traffic we saw a month ago. I don't know about surrounding communities but it looks like mine is bouncing back nicely. 

The shopping mall has reopened but you'd never know it. I think stores like Penneys, Victorias Secrets and Bath n Body works are done. At least in my community. Folks have found scented candles for $6 at Target while the mall was closed so they are probably not going to pay $16 at BnBW anymore. Sign of the times more than pandemic related is the liklihood.


----------



## Taz80

A co-worker told me today that he wasn't going to wear a mask anymore. I didn't tell him I wear one to protect myself or others, (I do) or because the government mandated it. I told him I wear one out of RESPECT. Respect for those people who are face to face with many people everyday. That got through to him and he seemed to change his attitude. I my job we have to sanitize our hands before going into a residence and wear a mask, the customer also has to wear a mask.


----------



## Poppy

turbodog said:


> To poke at you a little... does that also include your post(s)?
> 
> It's not that simple. Even a halfway draped hanky protects everyone. The asymptomatic person does not spread it (as much). This protects others. So, someone else's mask protects YOU. And your mask protects THEM. So we all win.
> 
> If the common man will wear a mask, the people in medical will not need as many masks. Not will they be exposed to as many sick people. You can ask my wife all about her time on the front line medical field, as well as my cousin (front line), and aunt (front line).
> 
> Regardless of gov't mandated 'stuff', the world as we know it is on 'pause' right now. There's enough people that have drastically altered their life voluntarily that the economic fallout was inevitable.



turbodog,
With all due respect, it appears that you did not read and *comprehend *the post I wrote; the one that you are referring to.

Which one of these statements is incorrect?
1. cloth face masks, will NOT protect the wearer!
2. paper surgical masks, will NOT protect the wearer.
3. N95 masks will NOT protect the wearer IF IT IS NOT PROPERLY SEALED (worn with a tight fit)
4. even respirator masks will NOT protect the wearer IF IT IS NOT PROPERLY SEALED!




> It's not that simple. Even a halfway draped hanky protects everyone.


" a halfway draped hanky"  does NOT protect the wearer!
1. If he is infected, he is already infected. No protection for HIM!
2. If he is NOT infected, it offers no protection to him from others shedding virus, because of the points I made above that you seem to have taken issue with.

However, if he IS INFECTED, and knows it, he should stay in quarantine.
If he IS INFECTED and doesn't know it, he should wear a mask, even a crappy cloth one, or surgical mask. That will help to slow the rate of spread of the virus to other people. With that thought in mind, everyone should wear a mask when in public.

And as Dave D so eloquently pointed out, wearing a face covering/ mask helps to protect everyone. Actually there is a misstatement in that sentence, It does not protect the wearer, other than encouraging others to wear a mask, which will actually protect him.

________________________________

regarding your wife et,al. 
She and others are absolutely correct. That however says nothing about the statements I made above, but rather that the comments by Dave D and his little pictorial are correct. To a certain degree, Face masks protect others, including doctors and nurses. However if one wants to proactively protect himself, one must wear a N95 mask. That's why doctors and nurses wear N95 masks.


----------



## RedLED

Dave D said:


> Too cold for me up there! LOL
> 
> Malaga Province on the Mediterranean coast, the photo with the sea has Malaga City centre right.


That looks like California, no wonder the Spanish liked it here.


----------



## knucklegary

^ and vice versa senior!


----------



## Dave D

RedLED said:


> That looks like California, no wonder the Spanish liked it here.



We even have a Los Angeles in Andalusia, not as big as the one in California though! 

https://www.google.com/maps/place/1...x3398adfd8ac9fb!8m2!3d36.4225256!4d-5.4345417


----------



## bykfixer

Do they have no touching the dry sand rule at the beach at your LA Dave? 

My boss proudly announced he had volunteered to be anti body tested this past week. He said "I was just curious if I've been exposed to the dam thing". I said "so this is the second time you registered for the draft?" He looked at me puzzled like "huh?" I said "well you know the president put in place the war time act so that means if everybody at a chicken plucking factory goes down with covid the government can grab folks with antibodies to replace them, right?" He said "I sure hope it comes back negative then". We were just kidding around about it. Then he told a story of a time when everybody in his community volenteered to pick tobacco from a farm the day after Camile, which had dumped over 20" of rain in just a few hours onto the farm. It was a large farm that took several days to pick the tobacco every fall so the community got together and picked it all in a day. 

Will the US (or state) government draft ordinary folks to work at meat plants, hospitals and other places like that? Hopefully not. Can they do that under the war time act? Is a bull frog waterproof? At this point it has been national guard and volunteer people filling those roles but if this thing had really gotten bad like an ebola out break it could conceivably happen in America.

Oh yeah, murder hornets didn't do the trick so now it's exploding hand sanitizer. lol. 
Hundreds of parroting news stories tell of exploding hand sanitizer while "experts" say "nothing to fear folks"……… What's next? Home made masks kill people? 
Your dog spreads corona? Wait, home deliveries spreads the virus? It's in your shampoo now? :huh:


----------



## raggie33

If some one does not wear a mask and infects another person could they be charged with murder? EDIT not murder i mean manslaughter


----------



## Dave D

raggie33 said:


> If some one does not wear a mask and infects another person could they be charged with murder?



A Rail worker was spat at by a member of the public, who claimed to have COVID19, in London and the Rail worker subsequently died from it.

British Transport Police have interviewed a 57 years old male in regards to the incident and are seeking nobody else in connection with it.

It has not been disclosed what he will be charged with at this time.

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...ay-worker-who-was-spat-on-at-station-11990196

It is a sorry state of society when people going about their jobs are treated in such a disgusting manner.


----------



## scout24

Made the mistake of going grocery shopping this morning. Tons of out-of-state plates in the parking lot, and the checkout line ran the length of the front of the store, and halfway up the far side. What shocked me were the half dozen or so customers not wearing masks of any sort...


----------



## P_A_S_1

raggie33 said:


> If some one does not wear a mask and infects another person could they be charged with murder?



Idk, doubt it. But it reminds me of the early 1990s when the law department was asked by the police if DPF could be used against an individual armed with a hypodermic needle threatening to stab others and claiming the needle was contaminated with AIDS. Their answer was no.


----------



## RedLED

raggie33 said:


> If some one does not wear a mask and infects another person could they be charged with murder?


No.


----------



## raggie33

RedLED said:


> No.



I mean manslaughter . Had a brain hicup when i made post


----------



## knucklegary

Dave D said:


> A Rail worker was spat at by a member of the public, who claimed to have COVID19, in London and the Rail worker subsequently died from it.
> 
> British Transport Police have interviewed a 57 years old male in regards to the incident and are seeking nobody else in connection with it.
> 
> It has not been disclosed what he will be charged with at this time.
> 
> https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...ay-worker-who-was-spat-on-at-station-11990196
> 
> It is a sorry state of society when people going about their jobs are treated in such a disgusting manner.



I bet that's a new one on the books.. Homicide by Cvd19 Lougie!


----------



## RedLED

raggie33 said:


> I mean manslaughter . Had a brain hicup when i made post


No.


----------



## Greta

So I went to a local grocery store today cuz I heard at the bar that a fresh stock of Corona Seltzer came in to town. (We've been out for almost two weeks now! A couple of the local beer distributors were at the bar and told us where to find it.) - I grabbed up my three cases and go to the check out. As I've seen at other stores, there was plastic covering the keypad/card reader. I couldn't take it anymore. I had to ask.

Me to Cashier: What is the point of this plastic?
Cashier to Me: People kept spraying it with their own sanitizer and shorting it out.
Me to Cashier with look of disbelief: Are you serious?!?
Cashier to Me: Yup. Each machine costs a couple thousand dollars and they just walk up and start spraying them. So the plastic is to protect the machine. Not you.

We laughed and shook our heads, waved, told each other to have a great weekend and off I went to go home and drink my Coronas by the pool.

Moral of the story... you can't fix stupid... put you can put plastic over the things stupid does.


----------



## raggie33

Greta said:


> So I went to a local grocery store today cuz I heard at the bar that a fresh stock of Corona Seltzer came in to town. (We've been out for almost two weeks now! A couple of the local beer distributors were at the bar and told us where to find it.) - I grabbed up my three cases and go to the check out. As I've seen at other stores, there was plastic covering the keypad/card reader. I couldn't take it anymore. I had to ask.
> 
> Me to Cashier: What is the point of this plastic?
> Cashier to Me: People kept spraying it with their own sanitizer and shorting it out.
> Me to Cashier with look of disbelief: Are you serious?!?
> Cashier to Me: Yup. Each machine costs a couple thousand dollars and they just walk up and start spraying them. So the plastic is to protect the machine. Not you.
> 
> We laughed and shook our heads, waved, told each other to have a great weekend and off I went to go home and drink my Coronas by the pool.
> 
> Moral of the story... you can't fix stupid... put you can put plastic over the things stupid does.


sash have you ever tried a soda stream? It makes bubbly water or soda pop etc etc


----------



## raggie33

Im starting to think im being punked! For real im in store again to get eggs, i have to go to store a lot since i am walking and can only carry a small amount. But once again some on gets so close to me then every member of there family does the same thing they was getting something that was behind me. Not one of them had a dang mask on


----------



## Poppy

Greta said:


> So I went to a local grocery store today cuz I heard at the bar that a fresh stock of Corona Seltzer came in to town. (We've been out for almost two weeks now! A couple of the local beer distributors were at the bar and told us where to find it.) - I grabbed up my three cases and go to the check out. As I've seen at other stores, there was plastic covering the keypad/card reader. I couldn't take it anymore. I had to ask.
> 
> Me to Cashier: What is the point of this plastic?
> Cashier to Me: People kept spraying it with their own sanitizer and shorting it out.
> Me to Cashier with look of disbelief: Are you serious?!?
> Cashier to Me: Yup. Each machine costs a couple thousand dollars and they just walk up and start spraying them. So the plastic is to protect the machine. Not you.
> 
> We laughed and shook our heads, waved, told each other to have a great weekend and off I went to go home and drink my Coronas by the pool.
> 
> Moral of the story... you can't fix stupid... put you can put plastic over the things stupid does.


LOL.. that's a funny story!

I also wondered about the plastic. If I am poking at the buttons, or the plastic, what's the difference. I figured it made it easier for it to be cleaned once in a while.

People are insane!

We just have to live among them.


----------



## Poppy

raggie33 said:


> Im starting to think im being punked! For real im in store again to get eggs, i have to go to store a lot since i am walking and can only carry a small amount. But once again some on gets so close to me then every member of there family does the same thing they was getting something that was behind me. Not one of them had a dang mask on


And so Raggie,
What did you do the change the situation?

Complaining to us does you no good.
Complaining to the offenders, or the management might.


----------



## raggie33

Poppy said:


> And so Raggie,
> What did you do the change the situation?
> 
> Complaining to us does you no good.
> Complaining to the offenders, or the management might.


its called venting poppy. You must live in a better neighborhood then me around here theyll pull a gun on you


----------



## Greta

raggie33 said:


> sash have you ever tried a soda stream? It makes bubbly water or soda pop etc etc



Rags... I have one!  - It's great... but you can't really add alcohol unless as a mixer like vodka or gin or tequila. Corona Seltzer is 4.5% alcohol, 90 calories, 0 carbs, 0 sugars, 0 sodium. Nice and refreshing!


----------



## Greta

So there was a Trump 2020 boat parade today on our lovely lake...


----------



## raggie33

Greta said:


> Rags... I have one!  - It's great... but you can't really add alcohol unless as a mixer like vodka or gin or tequila. Corona Seltzer is 4.5% alcohol, 90 calories, 0 carbs, 0 sugars, 0 sodium. Nice and refreshing!


You would love these you can use 20 pound co2 tanks with them .then you put ya drink mix in old pepsi or coke bottle and attach it to co2 tank ps sorry for going ot https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01K4GGYT0/?tag=cpf0b6-20


----------



## RedLED

raggie33 said:


> You would love these you can use 20 pound co2 tanks with them .then you put ya drink mix in old pepsi or coke bottle and attach it to co2 tank ps sorry for going ot https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01K4GGYT0/?tag=cpf0b6-20


That's good Info. Maybe you can ask to put in my soda thread.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

raggie33 said:


> Im starting to think im being punked! For real im in store again to get eggs, i have to go to store a lot since i am walking and can only carry a small amount. But once again some on gets so close to me then every member of there family does the same thing they was getting something that was behind me. Not one of them had a dang mask on



You should have faked an episode of coughing and watch everyone scatter and avoid you like the plague


----------



## Hooked on Fenix

raggie33 said:


> If some one does not wear a mask and infects another person could they be charged with murder? EDIT not murder i mean manslaughter



No. However, if you purposely cough on over $30,000 worth of produce so that the store has to throw it out just in case, you can apparently be charged with terrorism. If you are an NBA player at a news conference and lick all the microphones as a bad joke (and you have corona virus), you can be arrested. The issue here is intent. If you accidentally sneeze and someone gets sick, it's at least an accident and at most negligence(for not wearing a mask). If you intended to get people sick or acted in a way in which any rational person would believe that was your intention, you are fully accountable for the consequences of your actions. Remember, in a court of law, you can plead insanity but you can't plead stupidity.


----------



## bykfixer

raggie33 said:


> its called venting poppy <snip> around here theyll pull a gun on you



Not far from where I live a local mayor opted to keep the community on quarentine another two weeks. Many folks I know moaned and whaled "he can't do that", but he did it for the reasons you cite. The ones moaning and groaning live outside the area and visit fancy restaraunts or take in the "shopping" at high end stores. Yet the community itself has a very large portion of people who live in crowded conditions and frankly do not seem to understand (or care) about the spread in their community. A community where it is still spreading pretty badly. That's why the mayor there chose not to reopen things just yet. Folks like yourself are trying to do their part to halt the spread. Many are not. Many just don't understand. Many just don't care because to them life is cheap anyway. 

Praying for ya my man.


----------



## Poppy

bykfixer said:


> <snip>
> Praying for ya my man.


Plus 2

Raggie33,
I see that you are doing your best to stay safe.
Keep up the good work :thumbsup:
Poppy


----------



## bykfixer

I worked on a project one time where the labor staff were all related. They had come to America to find work and made a great team. They would arrive in 2 pickup trucks and go to work in minutes, do their thing like a clock where each person would do the role while meshing with the one next to them. Like one guy would cut a piece of lumber and hold it out and in seconds the next guy would grab it, place it on a form and a third guy would nail it down without a word between them. Every so often you'd hear one guy "undalay undalay" or another guy say "aqua?" as he handed out bottled water. 
I'd learned enough Spanish from Speedy Gonzalez cartoons to know a little of what they were saying but for all I knew they could be plotting to off my white arse……
Anyway there were 12 of them and they shared 2 apartments. In this pandemic that would likely mean if one got it all 12 would have it. 

The other day I popped into the big office at my work. For the first time in weeks I was not the only one there. I did my usual cold and flu season routine where I don't touch anything on the way in with a bare hand. Instead of the usual 100 or so people it was about 10. About half wore company issued masks, which is a sliver of black cloth with a hole cut in each end. In other words a coffee filter would be just as good. But they had a tiny bottle of Purell at the front desk so they all felt protected. One lady was walking around spraying Lysol everywhere. At least it was the lavender kind. lol. 

I whipped out my 4oz eyeglass cleaner spray bottle with peroxide and fogged my area to set at and did what I had to do and made like a hockey stick and got the puck outta that place. Sheesh. They had the heat cranked up to where I was sweating while folks walked around with sandals on when it was 40 something degrees outside. As one youngster was whining about how cold the office was I thought about those workers from Sandanista and wondered how they were doing during this time. I did not understand most of what they said but enjoyed my time around them way more than all of those buzzkill people at my office. 

On the way out I hit the lifesaver candy jar pretty hard and spritzed the lid to make sure the next person grabbing it was grabbing a disinfected lid. I like spraying stuff with peroxide because it foams sometimes. The time it takes to stop foaming is a time waiting for it to kill the stuff on that surface. So I spray it on surfaces like door knobs after I used it. Just doing my part.


----------



## Poppy

bykfixer said:


> I worked on a project one time where the labor staff were all related. They had come to America to find work and made a great team. They would arrive in 2 pickup trucks and go to work in minutes, do their thing like a clock where each person would do the role while meshing with the one next to them. Like one guy would cut a piece of lumber and hold it out and in seconds the next guy would grab it, place it on a form and a third guy would nail it down without a word between them. Every so often you'd hear one guy "undalay undalay" or another guy say "aqua?" as he handed out bottled water.
> I'd learned enough Spanish from Speedy Gonzalez cartoons to know a little of what they were saying but for all I knew they could be plotting to off my white arse……
> *Anyway there were 12 of them and they shared 2 apartments. In this pandemic that would likely mean if one got it all 12 would have it. *
> 
> <SNIP>


Yeah, and that's part of the problem in larger Urban cities. Over congestion. I suppose there are similar issues with farms that rely on migrant workers, don't they work in the fields all day, but then get packed into bunk houses at night?


----------



## turbodog

bykfixer said:


> ... The time it takes to stop foaming is a time waiting for it to kill the stuff on that surface. So I spray it on surfaces like door knobs after I used it. Just doing my part.



https://sheltermedicine.vetmed.ufl.edu/files/2011/10/Guidelines-for-Using-Bleach-updated.pdf

Dwell time, or the time a surface must remain wet for disinfection to happen, can be shockingly high, up to 10 minutes. Time varies for different chemicals. Of interest to note, denatured alcohol is an effective disinfectant in times where isopropyl can't be obtained and is used in hand sanitizer interchangeably with isopropyl.


----------



## PhotonWrangler

bykfixer said:


> ...On the way out I hit the lifesaver candy jar pretty hard and spritzed the lid to make sure the next person grabbing it was grabbing a disinfected lid. I like spraying stuff with peroxide because it foams sometimes. The time it takes to stop foaming is a time waiting for it to kill the stuff on that surface. So I spray it on surfaces like door knobs after I used it. Just doing my part.



Good for you bykfixer. That's a good point - the time it takes to foam up and then dissolve offers a visual indication that good things are happening. I use alcohol but you've got me thinking about your approach. One thing I've heard is that the higher concentrations of alcohol might evaporate too quickly to reach all of the microbes. Because of this I've changed my tactic of using 99.9% alcohol on everything to using 70% or 90% on all surfaces except some electronics.


----------



## Greta

Beautiful drone shot of the London Bridge and the social distancing in our town yesterday...


----------



## ledbetter

Stolen water for use by morons.


----------



## raggie33

Another stupid question perhaps? Are people with alergies more safe for corona? Reason i ask is im sneezing so often id guess it will clear my sinuses of and bad germs entering my nose


----------



## bykfixer

Well you might actually be expelling it if you did happen to inhale a load. But one thing is likely, with you sneezing and all watery eyed it probably cause others to stay far away……
Look at your local store for vitamin C suppliments Raggae. Namely a powder called Emergen C. It's a long since proven flu symptom reducer we use at our home every year during cold and flu season. It lessons the time your body takes to recover from colds and flu. It boosts your immune system to help your body help itself. 

This weeks grocery trip was the closest to normal I've seen in a while. Stock was plentiful. Even toilet paper and ramen noodles. No q-tips though. That was strange. We figure all of the q-tip factories are making testing swabs right now. Mrs Fixer said when she got down to a 5 week supply she felt the need to buy more. Eh, maybe next week. 

I had read a while back (early March) the things that labs had shown killed the corona virus the fastest and went to stores to see what they had. That was before the mad dash for all things Clorox. Peroxide for whatever reason was not something folks were after. It's a lot less of an irratant too. To this point it is still an under rated product but studies from South Korea and the Phillipines had it tied for first place with bleach at killing the novel corona the fastest. And it was always plentuful at pharmacy stores and my local grocer. That and Vitamin C suppliments. 

I read about a family in Wuhan where the matriarc was a retired nurse who swore by vitamin C suppliments. She made everybody in the home take lots of vitamin C everyday back when folks there did not know what this new virus was. Her mom refused to though and got sick. She was hospitalized and the retired nurse asked them to give her mom vitamin C suppliments. They said "well she's about to die anyway" and gave it to her. Three days later she was no longer dieing. She ended up leaving the hospital a time later fine and dandy.

Here's one paper on vitamin C
https://www.physiciansweekly.com/hi...e-low-cost-ally-with-a-wide-margin-of-safety/


----------



## KITROBASKIN

ledbetter said:


> Stolen water for use by morons.


Curious how sometimes we don't think. When going to someone's house for a visit, learn some things, have fun; we don't insult the host. Seems like any forum is much like that, certainly this one. Calling a mass of people morons does not speak well for the one posting. Hope your day goes better than when post #882 was made...
And as far as stolen, well, if it was taken, it was probably stolen from someone who got it by stealing from an earlier owner. But this is not the place to vent this kind of spleen, one opinion.

One advantage of this closure thing that happened was the ability to start a very small lawn from seed; grama and buffalo grass were sown. We were able to water it every 2 hours from 8am to 8pm initially. Glad to be home and success was had. Now we are living here in a dry windy time, without rain for well over a month except for a couple of miniscule events. Thankfully we collected roof water from last winter and have been using it exclusively, given that our well is not inclined to suffer excess. Early spring did offer just enough water from the sky to get various beings going, moths included. Since our irrigated lawn is pretty much the only 'watering hole' nearby, the moths ignored _​any_ mandates over social distancing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vi4ZIUlsORw


----------



## Poppy

raggie33 said:


> Another stupid question perhaps? Are people with alergies more safe for corona? Reason i ask is im sneezing so often id guess it will clear my sinuses of and bad germs entering my nose


Hi Raggie,
That's not a stupid question, but rather it is a question that should be directed to your doctor.

On one hand you may expel covid or pollen more readily, because of the more frequent sneezing, on the other hand, perhaps with your sinuses already more inflamed, maybe there are more sites for the coronid to attach. I certainly do not know. Again, that's a question for your medical doctor, and even he, may not know.

My daughter has been running a low grade fever for 8 weeks now. She is allergic to tylenol, and was afraid to take Advil (ibuprofen) because of some reports that it may lower the body's inflammatory response to covid. She asked her doctor, who poo-pooed the idea, and told her it would be ok to take it. My doctor, agreed that the jury is out about the Advil, and couldn't advise her either way. However when she asked about taking her regular allergy medicine, Allegra, they agreed, that would be fine.

Regarding the use of allergy medicines, they need to be in your blood system before you have symptoms, so that means that you have to take them every so many hours, every day during allergy season for them to truly be effective. If you wait until you are miserable, you may have to take them religiously for a couple of days before they are truly effective.

Because my pediatrician didn't explain that to me when I was a kid, I suffered for many years. Back then Chlor-Trimeton was by prescription only. It is an antihistamine, and makes one drowsy until you get used to it. The script was "one every four hours as needed" well, it made me so drowsy that I didn't want to play stick ball with my friends, all I wanted to do was go to sleep! I would wait until I was miserable, and then take it. Well then it was too late, and was not effective, all it did was make me cranky and tired. Only later as an adult, I saw an allergist, who explained to me the need to take it prophylactically. She prescribed something else, that worked well for me, provided I took it very 6 hours.

Even if you don't have insurance, I believe there are enough covid-19 hotlines that you may be able to call and speak with a medical professional.

Good luck,
If you do pursue an answer, please let us know.
It's interesting.
Poppy.


----------



## raggie33

My temperature has been low .


----------



## Poppy

raggie33 said:


> My temperature has been low .


That's good.

My point was... talk to your doctor, not a bunch of flashlight geeks, about an answer to your question, "Does allergy induced sneezing, protect you from covid-19" 
My other point was... Taking allergy medicine, may make you much more comfortable.

Poppy


----------



## bykfixer

There are generic house brands for those famous brands that are fairly inexpensive. Same active ingredients. If doc says use Claretin for example the house brand runs way less. The claretin D is great if you are really clogged up but the cost is a lot more. For just reducing symptoms the non D is the way to go. For me it takes about a day for full effect but one in the morning has me feeling better by supper time. After day 1 I take half dose to reduce the symptoms while letting my body have some say so about getting rid of stuff like pollens that cause the symptoms. In other words instead of my head being all packed with mucous it really lessens that while still having enough moisture to blow my nose some. Full doses causes me to have dry nose and leads to nose bleeds during the heavy pollen season.

In corona news, my governor who is a pediatrician neurosurgeon and was made nationally famous for posing for a picture in either black face or a klan robe (but does not remember which one or if at all) then when asked about it at a press conference about it asked if the press would like to see his moonwalk (to which his wife quickly halted) is under fire for walking around a crowded public place without a mask even on his person as he posed for selfies inches away from strangers. Just the day before he encouraged everybody to wear one indoors or when not possible to be 6' from others. 
The guy is not above the occasional gaffe by no means. Now aside from the hypocracy of being a do as I say not as I do politician, I really liked the optics. Really. 

It places a confidence that things will be ok in the minds of the population when he is trying to coax people to go ahead and shop at stores, dine at an outside patio and lets get this economy going again. Now when a certain orange man did that he too was under fire. It's a drag that politics plays such a big part in seemingly everything these days. Sports, entertainment, weather and now a pandemic. I'm not a fan of my governor but do agree he has handled our situation in what I consider a reasonable manner. 

The place where he threw a fit because so many disregarded his stay at home decree was the place he went to announce the reopening of our state. But dude, you could have/should have at least had a mask draped around your neck. Seriously.


----------



## Greta

ledbetter said:


> Stolen water for use by morons.



Kinda curious what you mean by this. "Stolen water"? - It's the Colorado River. How is that "stolen water"? The London Bridge was purchased fair and square by Robert McCulloch for just shy of $3 million in 1968. Morons in the water? Meh. A few, I suppose... always is. 

So what is your point?


----------



## Empath

"Stolen waters are sweet, and bread eaten in secret is pleasant."

That's taken from Proverbs 9:17 .

It could be translated as "forbidden fruit is sweet", but the verse has had some very complex commentary.
I can't say for sure that's Ledbetter's intent or not, but it could fit.


----------



## Greta

Empath said:


> "Stolen waters are sweet, and bread eaten in secret is pleasant."
> 
> That's taken from Proverbs 9:17 .
> 
> It could be translated as "forbidden fruit is sweet", but the verse has had some very complex commentary.
> I can't say for sure that's Ledbetter's intent or not, but it could fit.



Perhaps. But our beaches and waterways are not forbidden (locked down) at this time. The only thing banned right now is mooring in the channel. As you can see, it was perfectly fine (not forbidden) for people to set up pop-ups and party on. I can't and won't judge people for living their lives the way they feel comfortable or see fit when there are no restrictions in place. I can and do choose not to be part of it though.


----------



## PhotonWrangler

Poppy said:


> That's good.
> 
> My point was... talk to your doctor, not a bunch of flashlight geeks, about an answer to your question, "Does allergy induced sneezing, protect you from covid-19"
> My other point was... Taking allergy medicine, may make you much more comfortable.
> 
> Poppy



Some experts are suggesting the inflammation that is present with allergies can make things worse for Covid, not in terms of catching it but it might make it easier for the virus to run rampant. I can't tell you whether this means to take your allergy med but the article (which quotes an immunologist) suggests taking them.


----------



## RedLED

ledbetter said:


> Stolen water for use by morons.


He could be referring to how the water from the Colorado River is managed and divided up by the federal Govt., and the surrounding states. Lots of issues involving Colorado River water, for decades.


----------



## bykfixer

RedLED said:


> He could be referring to how the water from the Colorado River is managed and divided up by the federal Govt., and the surrounding states. Lots of issues involving Colorado River water, for decades.



Right. 

Here's one story
https://www.denverpost.com/2018/04/18/arizona-accused-manipulating-colorado-river/


----------



## Poppy

RedLED said:


> He could be referring to how the water from the Colorado River is managed and divided up by the federal Govt., and the surrounding states. Lots of issues involving Colorado River water, for decades.


Yes RedLED, I was thinking he meant something like that.

But NOW I think it is more than that!

From wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Bridge_(Lake_Havasu_City)


 McCulloch made a deal with the state government and received the property for free with a promise to develop the land....

Speaking of London Brige:
The bridge was not reconstructed over a river, but rather it was rebuilt on land in a position between the main part of the city and Pittsburgh Point, at that time a peninsula jutting into Lake Havasu. Once completed,* the Bridgewater Channel Canal was dredged under the bridge and flooded,* separating Pittsburgh Point from the city, creating an island. As a result, the bridge now traverses a navigable shortcut between the Thompson Bay part of Lake Havasu south of Pittsburgh Point, and the remainder of Lake Havasu to the north.[9]

____________________________________________________
​ Therefore, he made a new path for the river to flow through and over, on land that he got for free!


----------



## Poppy

bykfixer said:


> Right.
> 
> Here's one story
> https://www.denverpost.com/2018/04/18/arizona-accused-manipulating-colorado-river/


Good find mr fixer


----------



## idleprocess

bykfixer said:


> Right.
> 
> Here's one story
> https://www.denverpost.com/2018/04/18/arizona-accused-manipulating-colorado-river/



Goes back a century or so. _Cadillac Desert_ is a good read on a century-plus of large-scale water projects in the American West; just as relevant now as it was when it was published 34 years ago.


----------



## raggie33

Is anyone seeing hand cleaner is the stores?


----------



## knucklegary

To whom this may concern.. When people get in my space i accidentally step on their feet, and then apologize.. oops i am so sorry! :thinking:


----------



## ledbetter

Current megadrought in the western U.S. is the second worst in the last 1200 years, and it has no appearance of letting up. And as a native of the area, it just gauls me to see the Colorado River used to water lawns and for recreation. It was rude of me to call them morons, as I was once young and fun, but the times are a changing, and the current, often wasteful, approach to living in a desert environment will need to change. Greed and water built the West. Greed and the lack of it might kill it.


----------



## PhotonWrangler

raggie33 said:


> Is anyone seeing hand cleaner is the stores?




I've seen hand sanitizer in the red "bullseye" store, although it wasn't the inexpensive stuff. Some distilleries are re-working their plants to produce hand sanitizer in the bottles that they usually use for booze, so you might find these hand sanitizers in unexpected places.


----------



## Poppy

raggie33 said:


> Is anyone seeing hand cleaner is the stores?


When at home, warm soap and water is as good as anything else.

I am on the East Coast, in New Jersey. I have not seen any hand sanitizer, like Purel, on the shelves until, last week. It is fours times as expensive.

If I am out, and have touched some things, I am very careful, not to touch my eyes, until I get home and wash my hands.


----------



## Poppy

Raggie33,
Disposable gloves are also hard to come by.
Here we are in a disposable society, and we just throw them away.
There is no rule against washing used gloves and re-using them.
If you use gloves, you can wash them and re-use them, or as it has been suggested, wait three days before you re-use them.


----------



## raggie33

Poppy said:


> When at home, warm soap and water is as good as anything else.
> 
> I am on the East Coast, in New Jersey. I have not seen any hand sanitizer, like Purel, on the shelves until, last week. It is fours times as expensive.
> 
> If I am out, and have touched some things, I am very careful, not to touch my eyes, until I get home and wash my hands.


I have iguanas so i have to be double careful they carry salmonella.soon as i get payed im buying welding gloves for my pets
There nails are so darn sharp


----------



## Poppy

raggie33 said:


> I have iguanas so i have to be double careful they carry salmonella.soon as i get payed im buying welding gloves for my pets
> There nails are so darn sharp


Chickens carry salmonella. Warm soapy water works.

Welding gloves are REALLY thick. If deer skin, or calves skin gloves wouldn't protect me, I'd get rid of it.


----------



## raggie33

PhotonWrangler said:


> I've seen hand sanitizer in the red "bullseye" store, although it wasn't the inexpensive stuff. Some distilleries are re-working their plants to produce hand sanitizer in the bottles that they usually use for booze, so you might find these hand sanitizers in unexpected places.


I love that store


----------



## 5S8Zh5

Poppy said:


> Raggie33,
> Disposable gloves are also hard to come by.
> Here we are in a disposable society, and we just throw them away.
> There is no rule against washing used gloves and re-using them.
> If you use gloves, you can wash them and re-use them, or as it has been suggested, wait three days before you re-use them.


Nitrile gloves are indeed reuseable.


----------



## knucklegary

raggie33 said:


> I have iguanas so i have to be double careful they carry salmonella.soon as i get payed im buying welding gloves for my pets
> There nails are so darn sharp



Can you take a Dremel tool with small sander drum and take off the iguana claw tips?

We had more than a few come visit our camp sites south of border. They like to eat meat.. Jimmy Dean sausage and Spam.. In fact the wild Mexican iguanas are scroungers

Those sharp claws could carry diseases 🐉


----------



## WarriorOfLight

At the moment there is a interesting documentation in german TV. Unfortunately it is mostly in German, but the US people in the interviews are stilll understandable - in english: 

https://www.zdf.de/dokumentation/zdfzeit/zdfzeit-corona-land-von-oben-100.html

Guess it is an interesting documentation - especially if you are at least capable understand a little bit German.


----------



## Greta

knucklegary said:


> Mod isn't the German link politically motivated as well?
> 
> There is an English and German version.. :shakehead:shrug:



Dunno. Didn't watch it. The comment posted with the link is what I looked at. WarriorofLight did not make any kind of political commentary or even imply an opinion other than "interesting". 


_(Hint: Let it go - FYI.. I speak German)_


----------



## knucklegary

I have been reading between the lines lately.. Thanks!


----------



## bykfixer

I read the words. I failed to learn anymore German than they showed on Hogans Hero's so I chose not to squander the data. 

Looks like a German version of a CNN story to me. Even quoted a CNN reporter. 
It's just another hit piece brought to us by our friends on the left. (yawn)


----------



## raggie33

For those of us who are haveing issues with grocery shoping can you live on flour? A course i mean baked into biscuits and breads etc etc. im pretty sure the cowboys back before cars lived on it


----------



## Greta

raggie33 said:


> For those of us who are haveing issues with grocery shoping can you live on flour? A course i mean baked into biscuits and breads etc etc. im pretty sure the cowboys back before cars lived on it



They also had a good supply of jerky


----------



## raggie33

Greta said:


> They also had a good supply of jerky



Dang guess ill still be shopping. Ps once again no one wearing a mask. Well i wore one im germ phobic. And the store still closes at 830 pm.


----------



## StarHalo

raggie33 said:


> For those of us who are haveing issues with grocery shoping can you live on flour? A course i mean baked into biscuits and breads etc etc. im pretty sure the cowboys back before cars lived on it



You need to search "prepper food staples"; rice, beans, oats, peanut butter, etc, all cheaper/easier to prepare and store than flour.


----------



## raggie33

StarHalo said:


> You need to search "prepper food staples"; rice, beans, oats, peanut butter, etc, all cheaper/easier to prepare and store than flour.



Ill get more of them as well i sure hope this mess is over soon. Good news at least i saw bleach today.


----------



## RedLED

raggie33 said:


> For those of us who are haveing issues with grocery shoping can you live on flour? A course i mean baked into biscuits and breads etc etc. im pretty sure the cowboys back before cars lived on it


They ate a hard biscuit called hardtack.


----------



## raggie33

RedLED said:


> They ate a hard biscuit called hardtack.


i made my first non bisquck biscuits tonights they came out good considering i used a food processor to mix it


----------



## raggie33

Hey everyone in your town what percentage of people wear a mask at the store? And what part of the country are you in? Or what country? Here id say its like 15 percent wear mask im in north ga usa


----------



## WarriorOfLight

In Germany you *must* wear a mask in stores, in trains, busses... If you do not wear a mask the security at the store entry will not let you in. I also see in a bus that the driver was throwing someone out of the bus becaus he was not wearing a mask.


----------



## StarHalo

raggie33 said:


> Hey everyone in your town what percentage of people wear a mask at the store? And what part of the country are you in? Or what country? Here id say its like 15 percent wear mask im in north ga usa



Here's what happens if you show up to a store without a mask in California:


----------



## bykfixer

My governor declared a decree. Starting in a week masks required inside businesses. It's so important that well, let's just start doing it 5 days from now. 
No enforcement, if you have medical conditions like trouble breathing you don't have to but no proof required. Call me crazy but I thought a symptom of covid is trouble breathing.

Mr Fixer and I figure it's more about pitting neighbor against neighbor than about the pandemic from the guy seen a couple of days before the decree walking down a sidewalk shaking hands and posing for selfies with strangers without a mask. Crowds of way more than 10 people. Shaking hands? I thought that was verboten these days. What happened to the max 10 people thing?

Yup, there's lady in the Food Leopard on aisle 6 is not wearing a mask somebody call the manager…… same people who rat out their neighbor for letting neighborhood children play at their home. 

In some communities I can see it. Yeah. Cases still rising, folks crowded together etc sure. But communities with little to no spread? I have kept a mask and gloves mask with me for several weeks now, but deploy them when not possible to stay away from people. Mrs Fixer and I have been sharing masks with others since March. 
I've already got my "do as Ralph says not as Ralph does" mask ready to deploy. My brother has a darth vader mask (with breathing holes poked in it) and Mrs Fixer says she has invented an invisible mask. In case that doesn't work hers says "mask rule sucks".


----------



## idleprocess

Went out for a brief grocery expedition yesterday - seemed like perhaps 25% were wearing masks in contrast to the last such venture 2 weeks ago where it was the inverse. Costco's mandate is effective: not only does everyone have a mask, but will sheepishly re-apply one when they realize they've been spotted with their mask off. Of course, mask usage is inconsistent wherever one goes - heaven forbid one's nose be obstructed or one not have another meaningless conversation while meandering the aisles of the megalomart. One place where I see almost no mask usage is the liquor store; something about that demo perhaps...

With TX so eager to re-open I hope there's not another spike in cases; Denton County saw a spike in reported cases a week ago comparable to the March spike. Mercifully my employer is in no hurry to end WFH.


----------



## knucklegary

Denton county, TX appears out of the mainstream. Have the experts figured out why covid death rates are so high in population of approx 700k


----------



## P_A_S_1

Recording people on video is an odd thing. Some lose their minds while others stay cool. Costco guy stayed cool and wasn't hooked.


----------



## Tejasandre

Bexar County texas. Masks are mandatory, but no penalty. 80-90% in the grocery, 70% at the blue home improvement store.


----------



## idleprocess

knucklegary said:


> Denton county, TX appears out of the mainstream. Have the experts figured out why covid death rates are so high in population of approx 700k



If we use 'concluded' cases as the denominator then the lethality rate is higher than one would expect : 30 / (636 + 30) = 4.5%, higher than the first source I could find suggesting that the lethality is 1.4%. Testing is still rather low at <1% of the population, suggesting that the asymptomatic are not yet being tested thus the baseline case rate could be higher than reported.


----------



## SCEMan

raggie33 said:


> Hey everyone in your town what percentage of people wear a mask at the store? And what part of the country are you in? Or what country? Here id say its like 15 percent wear mask im in north ga usa



100% mask wearers so far in my town on the eastern border of Los Angeles county. But I don't think this will last long with the reopening now underway.


----------



## Empath

A non-membership store certainly has the right to make demands on restrictions, like masks, on those entering their store. A membership store. like Costco, is in a different situation. Unless the contract between member and store addresses a particular deviation from certain normal behavior or dress, the customer's rights cannot arbitrarily be abridged.

Call it playing the devil's advocate if you wish, but Costco could be in an unenviable situation from a customer willing to really push it.

Of course, I don't think I've ever read the Costco membership agreement(s) in great detail.


----------



## treek13

Seems to me that they’re completely covered.
“Membership is subject to any and all rules adopted by Costco including our privacy policies and practices, and they may be amended from time to time without notice.”

“Costco reserves the right to refuse membership to any applicant and membership may be terminated at Costco's discretion and without cause.”


----------



## RedLED

It would seem to me that any business can set rules for those entering their establishment, on their property, to wear masks during an emergency. All businesses, with the exception of recreational endeavors, require shoes and shirts. I am not sure what rights these people think are being violated by being asked to do this under the circumstances?


----------



## Greta

My county has been doing blitz testing every weekend in the bigger cities. Last weekend they did one in my city. Here are the results:







Doing pretty good here! Will be interesting to see what happens in a week or two after all of the traffic here over Memorial Day.


----------



## Empath

treek13 said:


> Seems to me that they’re completely covered.
> “Membership is subject to any and all rules adopted by Costco including our privacy policies and practices, and they may be amended from time to time without notice.”
> 
> “Costco reserves the right to refuse membership to any applicant and membership may be terminated at Costco's discretion and without cause.”




Membership hasn't been discussed.


----------



## StarHalo

Let's go to the mall; the Ontario Mills mall is the largest shopping and outlet mall in the largest county of the United States. The single-floor, 1.4 million square foot complex is located in Ontario, California, and with 28 million annual visitors, is one of the top shopping and tourist destinations in Southern California.

They reopened for business yesterday.

Please stay to the right





Lots of expanded seating space in the food court (because there are fewer seats)





Welcome to Old Navy. Please wait.





No coffee. No pizza.





Roughly 30% of stores were open on today's trek


----------



## bykfixer

It may vary state to state how things are interparated as well. Most "contracts" for things like a membership have a right to change policies without notice, or with notice. But each state may have laws in place to protect consumers or perhaps more relaxed buyer beware type approach. 
Costco is a really big outfit so I'd be surprised if they were doing the mask thing without the legal ability to. 

A friend of mine plays futures in the stock market. One day he told me to buy coffee stock. I asked why. He said Costco is about to buy their coffee for the next 5 years so buy now before the price of coffee stock jumps. Being puzzled I asked why. He said they buy so much coffee, Pepsi, chips, paper towels etc that they often end up influencing the price throught the world of a particular item. 
He said one time Coca Cola wanted to raise the price they charged Costco more than Costco was willing to pay. The next day there was no Coca Cola in any Costco. Coca Cola stock plunged shortly after. Soon after that Coca Cola agreed to the adjustment Costco was ok with and that was that. 

A business that can affect the price of coffee across planet earth probably has the ability to make folks wear masks if it is mandated by Costco corparate. 

Funny how nobody has mentioned the CDC has back peddled on transmission through contact with surfaces and now says human to human is the only likely way it spreads. That's when everybody racheted up the asymptematic notion of transmission speak 
https://www.livescience.com/cdc-coronavirus-surfaces-update.html


----------



## Monocrom

StarHalo said:


> Let's go to the mall; the Ontario Mills mall is the largest shopping and outlet mall in the largest county of the United States.... Welcome to Old Navy. Please wait.



People actually lining up to shop at Old Navy.... Now I've seen everything. Just curious, were most of the folks on the line wearing masks?


----------



## StarHalo

Monocrom said:


> People actually lining up to shop at Old Navy....



Most of the open stores had quotas/lines, the few that didn't had crowding. 



Monocrom said:


> Now I've seen everything. Just curious, were most of the folks on the line wearing masks?



Yeah, I'd say 95% of the people in the mall had masks.


----------



## RedLED

Again, forget the legal nonsense, ANY business can require masks to be worn, Period. If a business asks people to wear one, and you Don't. want to, then go to another location. Businesses are private, therefore, they are allowed to set their own standards and can ask you to vacate their premises for anything they want.

How many times have you seen the we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone signs posted in businesses?

The membership is a binding contract that is signed by the member. At Costco, you must show your recipt upon exiting the store, at any other store or non-membership store, you do not have to show your receipt in order to leave. There is legal precedent on this.


----------



## Johnnyh

RedLED is right...I worked part time at our local mega-mall in security for over 10 years and had to explain countless times that the Mall property was not “a public place” and was indeed a private property that has chosen to invite the public to enter it. This was usually in the course of “un-inviting” a guest who violated the properties established rules. I heard it a million times “this is a public place and I can (fill in the blank) if I want to!” Not even close.


----------



## Poppy

SCEMan said:


> 100% mask wearers so far in my town on the eastern border of Los Angeles county. But I don't think this will last long with the reopening now underway.


Yesterday was the first day I went shopping in about 10 days.
Stop and Shop ( a large chain supermarket here in NJ) had a sign, you MUST wear a mask or no admittance. Shop Rite, had a similar sign, with additional note: T shirt pulled up over the nose is not sufficient.
No guards at the door, but there was 100% compliance.

Individual rolls of toilet paper, were available, with a ONE roll limit. It's hard to believe that they are still in such short supply.
There were a few packages of 3-4 rolls of paper towels.
In one store there were maybe 25-30, 1/2 gallons of Ajax Bleach.
One store had a couple of small, cases of 16 oz bottles, of hand sanitizer. $16.00. I'm of the impression, because of the very Spartan labeling, that it was made by a converted brewery distillery. 

At Stop and shop there is a 5 package limit on meats, it doesn't matter if it is a 14 oz package of chicken nuggets, or a 10 pound ham. 
There was enough that I didn't feel guilty picking up 2 packages of skinless chicken breasts @ 4.5 pounds each, and 2 packages of 85% ground beef @ 3.5 pounds each.

Frozen Pizza was back in supply, and as always, fresh fruits and vegetables were fully stocked.
No problems with bread, milk, eggs, or dairy either.


----------



## raggie33

I just got back from shoping only like 3 other people in store i was in heaven. Till i walked home and had not enough room in back pack and it rained.


----------



## bykfixer

It's an eery feeling seeing shelves empty in America in 2020. Kinda shows how much we take for granted. 
Honey, let's go see a movie this Friday……nope. Theatres closed
Want tacos for dinner this week? No shells.
What's say we go by the museum this weekend. Nope, closed. 
No baseball, no soccer, and lots of other stuff we just always figured we could go to at any old time. 

I had a discussion with one the kids yesterday about how a couple of centuries ago the red man on the east coast was wiped out nor by bullets but cholera and influenza brought here by the pale face who introduced them to "running face" for the first time. And now white, red, brown, yellow and black are all facing the same thing. He kept fluttering around from friend to friends house like it was no big thing so I felt the need to scold him. I also told him it aint a normal time he lives in right now so if he does not cease his social butterfly ways he would be required to wear a mask while in my home or not come in at all. I hope he got the point. 

Glad your store shelves are mostly full Poppy. But limit one roll of toilet paper? C'mon, that's kinda crazy huh? Hopefully most don't have to resort to buying one at a time right now.


----------



## raggie33

Why is there no bean sprouts? I cant find them for months lachoy canned ones are good but there no where to be found


----------



## Poppy

bykfixer said:


> It's an eery feeling seeing shelves empty in America in 2020.<SNIP>
> 
> Glad your store shelves are mostly full Poppy. But limit one roll of toilet paper? C'mon, that's kinda crazy huh? Hopefully most don't have to resort to buying one at a time right now.


Yes Mr Fixer,
It is different.

Crazy, yeah. I guess people are still hording TP.
Is TP available in your part of the woods?

Tissues are also in short supply, but at least available, if only in the small 60 count boxes.


----------



## Poppy

raggie33 said:


> Why is there no bean sprouts? I cant find them for months lachoy canned ones are good but there no where to be found


Why not try sprouting your own... much cheaper than canned, and fresher.


----------



## raggie33

Poppy said:


> Why not try sprouting your own... much cheaper than canned, and fresher.


tryied mung sprouts at home but they was so thin


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Poppy said:


> Yes Mr Fixer,
> It is different.
> 
> Crazy, yeah. I guess people are still hording TP.
> Is TP available in your part of the woods?
> 
> Tissues are also in short supply, but at least available, if only in the small 60 count boxes.



We have TP and tissues everywhere here. The supply started coming back weeks ago they have so much that there is even office stores have stacks of them in the aisles. It may be that our central location and having I think 2 plants that make TP and tissues may help us a few tons. I just wish we had a TV manufacturing plant as the TP came back TV sets started vanishing before I got money coming back in to afford a new one.


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

Below is a list of requirements from the Governor of Washing state. 


1. Prior to beginning operations as described in this document, all religious and faith-based organizations are required to develop for each location (indoor and outdoor if applicable) a comprehensive COVID-19 exposure control, mitigation and recovery plan. The plan must include policies regarding the following control measures: PPE utilization; on-location physical distancing; hygiene; sanitation; symptom monitoring; incident reporting; location disinfection procedures; COVID-19 safety training; exposure response procedures and a post-exposure incident project-wide recovery plan. A copy of the plan must be available at the location for inspection by state and local authorities, but state and local authorities are not required to preapprove the plan. Failure to meet planning requirements may result in sanctions, including the location being shut down. 


2. COVID-19 safety information and requirements, such as CDC, DOH, OSHA posters shall be visibly posted at each location (indoor and outdoor).


3. Authorized access to the organization’s indoor location should primarily be through the front door. Other access points should be kept closed.


4. All employees, members, and visitors in attendance shall wear face coverings before, during, and after the service (whether indoor or outdoor). 


5. There may be no direct physical contact between servers and members or visitors. Anything to be consumed may not be presented to the members or visitors in a communal container or plate. 


6. No choirs shall perform during the service. Singing is permitted, but individuals must not remove their face coverings to sing – it must stay on for the duration of the service. 


7. All services may provide access to restrooms, provided that access is controlled and limited to no more than 2 people at a time. Individuals waiting to use the restroom must maintain at least 6 feet of distance between each person. 


8. Soap and running water shall be abundantly provided at locations for frequent handwashing. Employees should be encouraged to leave their workstations to wash their hands regularly, and required to do so before and after going to the bathroom, before and after eating and after coughing, sneezing or blowing their nose. Alcohol-based hand sanitizers with greater than 60% ethanol or 70% isopropanol should also be provided and used, but are not a replacement for the water requirement.


9. Disinfectants must be available to employees, members, and visitors throughout the location (indoor and outdoor) and ensure cleaning supplies are frequently replenished.


10. Clean and disinfect high-touch surfaces after each use—including personal work stations, mirrors, chairs, headrests and armrests, doorknobs, handrails, restrooms and breakrooms—using soapy water, followed by the appropriate disinfectants. If these areas cannot be cleaned and disinfected frequently, the organization shall be shut down until such measures can be achieved and maintained.


11. All organizations must adhere to physical distancing requirements and have six feet of space between workstations or have physical barriers between them.


12. All organizations must adhere to physical distancing requirements and have six feet of space between the congregation’s seats, pews, and benches or have physical barriers between them. Members of the same household may be seated together as a single unit. This may require the organization to reconfigure the congregation’s seats, pews, and benches or have physical barriers between them. The organization must place markings on the floors and seats indicating a six feet radius to help guide members and visitors. 


13. Increase ventilation rates where feasible. Evaluate ventilation and utilize U.V. filters with a higher MERV rating.


14. Ensure that tissues and trashcans are placed throughout the location (indoor and outdoor).


15. Inform all employees, members, and guests that they must self-screen for signs and symptoms of COVID-19 before arriving at the location.
• Request employees, members, and visitors to take their temperature before attending a service. Any individual with a temperature of 100.4°F will not be permitted to attend the service or attend work at the organization. 
• Any individual with a household member who has been diagnosed with COVID-19 or with symptoms of COVID-19 (including a fever above 100.4°F) may not attend the service or attend work at the organization. 


16. For in-home services, religious and faith-based organizations are permitted to convene up to 5individuals, excluding organization staff. These individuals do not need to be from the same household. However, individuals must wear face coverings when individuals from outside of the household participate. 


General questions about how to comply with the agreement practices can be submitted to the state’s Business Response Center at https://coronavirus.wa.gov/how-you-can-help/covid-19-business-and-worker-inquiries All other violations related to Proclamation 20-25 can be submitted at https://bit.ly/covid-compliance.


----------



## Poppy

Wow! That looks like a... "You want to give us a hard time? Here it is, back at ya!"
See if you can comply with all of this.


----------



## bykfixer

To wade into the church or not church debate I will talk about what a local mayor said this morning. "In our city we have some churches with 5000 members. Most are in the vulnerable age range. To put 2500 potentially vulnerable folks in a space that holds 5000 is not a good idea right now". 

Hard to argue with a man who is correct. I'm for opening churches, provided they proceed with caution. My state is nearing phase 2, which I have no idea what that means. But some churches are holding services outside in phase 1. Folks not wanting to attend can catch the live stream or they can do like my grandma did whenever she got sick. She listened to the audio recording. 

Same city is closing some streets in order to set up dining areas with lots of distancing.


----------



## Hooked on Fenix

I thought things were supposed to be starting back up and returning slowly to normal, apparently not. I was teaching martial arts before the corona virus started. Due to this slow comeback, the owner decided to close the school permanently. He had gone three months with no rent money and now is only allowed to teach students one at a time. Can't pay the bills like that. I have 21 years experience in martial arts with no school to teach or train at, and am not currently legally allowed to teach more than one person at a time. Where do I sign up for suing the government for destroying my lifetime career?

As far as church goes, my church decided to hold a single service this Sunday outside. No offering baskets passed around. No communion. And it's bring your own chair. Hard to abide by our atheist governor's wishes of limiting service to under 100 people or 1/4 building capacity. Hopefully, having the service outside will be good enough.

Was at Circle K today and apparently, the county of San Diego has banned fountain drinks. Your mileage may vary on compliance. Found an ARCO that was still selling fountain drinks. Not going to say which one (I'd like to keep it that way).

I don't have a lot of hope that things are going to return to normal do to my current circumstances, and I know I'm not alone in that regard. The way our government is allowing businesses to operate is bankrupting them in a way that they'll never return. You can't run a business at a reduced capacity for an extended period of time when all of your expenses stay the same or increase. That's a business model that only makes sense to an insane person or a politician (right now, arguably the same thing). Okay, rant over. I hope you guys are having a better day than I am.


----------



## PhotonWrangler

Item #13 - What is a "UV filter?" There are UVC germicidal lamps that can be retrofitted to A/C systems but I haven't heard of a UV filter before. Enlighten us please.


----------



## bykfixer

I thought a UV filters blocks UV like my sunglasses for example. 

HoF the governor of my state just declared a mask requirement in public businesses with no enforcement and no requirement to prove you cannot wear one. Basically most folks I know and hear on the radio were already wearing face covers when within a few feet of people. Most are saying if he had said to say, K Mart for example "you should strongly request masks in your business" most folks would gladly comply. For the sake of others if nothing else. But since he imposed a penalty of up to a year in jail a lot of people are saying awhellnaw bro. I dare you, I double dare you, I triple dare you to have locked up because when I get to court I will show the judge photos of his governerness glad handling people, shaking hands, touching strangers while posing for selfies without even one ready to deploy. 

I carry one around my neck ready to deploy and have for months. Just in case. 

Now regarding a karate school, when you guys can carry on and stay socially distanced then by all means, but when my boys took karate there were 10-12 kids who stood shoulder to shoulder and even boxed at the end of class. Perhaps you guys could devise a less likely to spread the virus way of conducting the classes (such as outdoors on the wet sand lol) share the idea with gym owners and others or share ideas then form a small group to send letters of requests for reconsideration to oh I dunno, your local mayor and see if that helps. Maybe temporary stalls between the kids for example and no full contact fighting for the time being. Focus strictly on the kata for the time being. Yup, one at a time aint no way to do it that's for sure. That is unless it's special circumstances like a kid with challenges most don't face. 

It's frustrating, sure but unless you can comply with the cdc guidelines to help reduce the spread of a novel virus not much can be done to bring back your classes. My wife teaches dog owners how to teach their dogs and right now she's not allowed to teach at all. Not even a one on one.


----------



## RedLED

Hooked,

I hear you, man! My business is covering events and getting photos of people by themselves, and in groups of 2 to 6, any more than six does not work. Who the hell is going to want to pose in a group of people for a photo now?

For the time being, I am shut down. I do not have to worry about money, and will just have to wait until events come back. And they will, hopefully that Goddamm Coachella will dissolve into nothing, however, things will come back. You will get to teach your classes, and I will get to shoot photos of people again...we just have to wait it out.

In the meal time, hope all is well.

Best,

RL


----------



## bykfixer

RedLED said:


> Who the hell is going to want to pose in a group of people for a photo now?
> RL



My governor……






Oops. 
2 days before saying we have to wear masks in public businesses





He said he forgot his mask in the car.


----------



## RedLED

He forgot his mask in the car...a likely story!


----------



## knucklegary

I see Northam has good taste in sunglasses

..and wonder what his other hand is doing while taking this selfie :wave:


----------



## bykfixer

Word on the street KG is when his wife saw that pic he's slept on the sofa since then. 

Mask rule began in my state yesterday. Word last evening was about 50/50 compliance. Mrs. Fixer at her work said she pulled hers down over her chin to get some fresh air and a masked customer approached and said "good for you" and pulled hers down too.


----------



## bykfixer

RedLED said:


> He forgot his mask in the car...a likely story!



He is the guy who held a press conference to take back his appology for wearing black face in college so he could deny that was him in the photo, then asked the press corp if they wanted to see his moonwalk……

It seems as though somebody on his staff walking with him would have said "uh, sir the optics of not at leasy carrying a mask?" More do as I say not as I do American politicianism.


----------



## Poppy

bykfixer said:


> Word on the street KG is when his wife saw that pic he's slept on the sofa since then.
> 
> Mask rule began in my state yesterday. Word last evening was about 50/50 compliance. Mrs. Fixer at her work said she pulled hers down over her chin to get some fresh air and a masked customer approached and said "good for you" and pulled hers down too.


This supports what I said last week.
What did this customer infer with her comment "Good for you" ? 
1. You are going to defy the governor's decree? "Good for you!", So will I!
OR
2. Wearing a mask protects you from getting the virus. You are not afraid of getting the virus, Good for you!... neither am I, so I will pull down my mask too!. 

Once again... wearing a mask does NOT protect the wearer, but rather helps to protect OTHER people. BUT many people do not understand that simple fact, and think that it directly protects them. :shakehead


----------



## raggie33

Poppy said:


> This supports what I said last week.
> What did this customer infer with her comment "Good for you" ?
> 1. You are going to defy the governor's decree? "Good for you!", So will I!
> OR
> 2. Wearing a mask protects you from getting the virus. You are not afraid of getting the virus, Good for you!... neither am I, so I will pull down my mask too!.
> 
> Once again... wearing a mask does NOT protect the wearer, but rather helps to protect OTHER people. BUT many people do not understand that simple fact, and think that it directly protects them. :shakehead


im pretty sure wearing a mask helps the wearer .it aint 100 percent but it provides some more safety


----------



## bykfixer

Poppy said:


> This supports what I said last week.
> What did this customer infer with her comment "Good for you" ?
> 1. You are going to defy the governor's decree? "Good for you!", So will I!
> OR
> 2. Wearing a mask protects you from getting the virus. You are not afraid of getting the virus, Good for you!... neither am I, so I will pull down my mask too!.
> 
> Once again... wearing a mask does NOT protect the wearer, but rather helps to protect OTHER people. BUT many people do not understand that simple fact, and think that it directly protects them. :shakehead



Probably yes to both. I've no idea what that lady meant. Apparently they were about 15 feet apart at the time.

I would speculate the customer was saying I'm not afraid of you.


----------



## knucklegary

bykfixer said:


> Word on the street KG is when his wife saw that pic he's slept on the sofa since then.
> 
> Mask rule began in my state yesterday. Word last evening was about 50/50 compliance. Mrs. Fixer at her work said she pulled hers down over her chin to get some fresh air and a masked customer approached and said "good for you" and pulled hers down too.



Funny, just the other day I performed a similar act of defiance

While in grocery store, standing behind the plexi glass barrier a fairly new checker said "you've been in my line three times now and I have never seen your face".. So I said "I'll show you mine if you show me yours" and we both pulled down our masks laughing the whole time 

Btw, the very cute checker was keeping count 🤗


----------



## bykfixer




----------



## raggie33

Crazy times


----------



## knucklegary

^^ LMAO Yes That is me!


----------



## wacbzz

bykfixer said:


> Mask rule began in my state yesterday. Word last evening was about 50/50 compliance.



I find it pretty awesome actually that in Virginia, a place of business can refuse you service if you don’t wear a mask or face covering. The segment of folks complaining about wearing one almost certainly have never complained about “No shirt, no shoes, no service.”

It reminds me of the very recent Mike Pence tweet about respecting people’s right to peacefully protest...this, from the guy who showed up and very publicly walked out of a football game last season because of peaceful sideline protests.


----------



## scout24

Maybe the Vice President was meeting peaceful protest with a peaceful protest of his own? It has to be a two way street...


----------



## bykfixer

Wearing a shirt or shoes doesn't affect the way I breath, nor hide my identity. 

If I were the conceal carry type of self defender wearing a facial ID blocker makes me illegal to carry. 

And in some peoples minds it is a sign of bowing down to tyranny. Especially now that case numbers are falling even though huge increase in people tested and the population is resuming normal life.


----------



## wacbzz

scout24 said:


> Maybe the Vice President was meeting peaceful protest with a peaceful protest of his own? It has to be a two way street...



I’m pretty sure that when you were writing that, you knew it was bunk, in the exact same way that the VP made the announcement in 2017 that he was going to a game where he _knew_ guys would be kneeling and then waited to leave until the cameras were on him to do it. That wasn’t a “two way street peaceful protest,” in addition to showing support for his president, that was pure pomp and circumstance that cost taxpayers a bunch of money that didn’t need to be spent.

Quick question Byk...has the VA state police or any local policing force/union/lobbyists vocalized any complaint about the “legality” of wearing a mask as the Gov has proclaimed? Perhaps I missed reading that but would gladly read any of their arguments if you provide me with some links.

And “tyrannical?” Please. How in the mind of reason and logic would requiring a mask or face covering when entering an enclosed building rise to the level of “cruel and oppressive government or rule?” I’ve just gotta shake my head at that thought process...

“Please do not enter this building without a mask or face covering” We posted a version of that WaWa sign up on the two doors to our business yesterday. We were slammed packed ALL day with customers wearing masks. We only had one person come in without one (his wife was wearing one - and also wearing a shirt that said “I’m with stupid” [j/k about the shirt part  ]) and when we asked him to please put one on that we would provide for him, he did. Some people actually do look out for the common good.

Again, very few of the whiners about wearing a mask have probable ever complained about the no shirt or no shoes policy simply because they never had a narrative to fill. Plus it’s an election year!


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

The segment of folks currently looting and setting businesses on fire most certainly aren't complaining about having to wear masks.


----------



## wacbzz

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> The segment of folks currently looting and setting businesses on fire most certainly aren't complaining about having to wear masks.



Tongue-in-cheek trigger warning...

But they were wearing them.


----------



## bykfixer

Today's grocery run was again a fairly normal experience. There was one panic buyer who had an over flowing cart but then again she may have been restocking day care center or something. Most of what she had was in small sizes like you'd do for lunches. 

A few folks were not wearing masks. It was kinda humerous to see them being more pissed off at all the mask wearing folks who seemed to have a live and let live look in their eyes. On one side of the store, say aisle 1 you'd see people fully covered and by aisle 3 had their nose uncovered. Especially the older folks. One lady was telling a worker "I can't read labels with this mask on". She was looking for canned peaches and had canned pineapples in her hand when she asked for help. She was not wearing glasses so it wasn't due to fogged lenses. 

One worker had on a Dallas Cowboys mask. I said "go cowboys" and he howled "I hate the cowboys but I lost a bet and have to wear this all day". lol. He's a Vikings fan btw. Another worker had a picture of her grandfather on her mask saying he had passed away from covid-19 related issues. The pic was him in his uniform from Vietnam days. 

Most had generic stuff but there were the matching couples who's attire matched all the way to their designer face coverings. Many had those black sports masks and one character had a bacleva with an N95 over it. He must not have read the memo of why they are being used. Some local ems folks come in there while we shop each week. Today they were wearing masks. A first for those folks. 

The only shelves empty were medical supplies like rubbing alcohol or peroxide. Plenty of toilet paper, meats, rice and other stuff that has been missing for a time. The buzz was all about the cities on fire and how most being arrested aren't even from those areas, even from the state they were arrested in. But it was nice to see an $8 steak is $8 again and skim milk is back in good supply. The Frito Lay gal told me my favorites, the thin Cantina style Tostitos sell out as fast as they make them so look for rubbing alcohol to be back before I see those again. Factories are seemingly focusing on the big sellers like nacho cheese Doritos or regular Tostitos. Dratz. And the strawberries n grapes from Brazil are in short supply due to them struggling with the virus now. They're now #2 in the world for cases and have passed the half million mark quickly. 

It was overall pretty chill considering. Most did not want to wear face coverings, you could tell. But were being law abiding citizens in a community where the case numbers are flat since early to mid-May when local nursing homes were able to gain a foot hold on the spread rate. 

The one thing I noticed was nobody was offended by people choosing not to cover up. Some of who I know personally and know they don't have a valid reason to not cover up.

Not going to get into a fish measuring match with wacbbz because I really don't care about his views of mask, no mask, Trump, Pence or anything of the sort. I really don't. I could provide counters to any of the demogogary all day (just ask Star Halo) but instead I just play devils advocate about both sides of a situation. I started a masks thread a while ago if you want my personal view on the matter.


----------



## PartyPete

I scored 2 packs of toilet paper today. 

My biggest takeaway from this all has been 1) I've learned the importance of keeping TP in stock at home 2) I feel like this has been one long product test. I've tried basically every brand on the market now ranging from cheap to expensive and everything in between. 

Sent from my SM-A102U using Tapatalk


----------



## bykfixer

Peeeeeeete!! You're alive!! Good to see you.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

I am glad I don't have a job as a security guard as used to be when someone came in a place wearing a mask they would pull out their guns and have a chance but now everyone wears a mask so it takes that advantage away. Shoplifting should also increase as people with masks can easier thwart cameras capturing their face and face recognition software in places that have a lot of cameras are now useless.


----------



## PhotonWrangler

For me a mask is a small inconvenience. I don't want to get sick nor do I want to transmit an aerosolized virus to others. I've heard some reports that experts are now saying surface contamination is far less important than aerosolized virus. If this is true, masks are far more important than wiping surfaces down.


----------



## StarHalo

Ohio will cross 2,000 deaths today, they also had more new cases on the single day of Friday than the rest of the entire week combined. Widespread looting and the loss of several downtown Cleveland businesses has been reported in the wake of weekend protests, including damage to buildings at Cleveland State University; the mayor has instituted a curfew starting at noon today and lasting into Monday, with police roadblock ID checks at all bridges and all lift bridges raised. And this is how their local paper covers it:


----------



## wacbzz

bykfixer said:


> If I were the conceal carry type of self defender wearing a facial ID blocker makes me illegal to carry.



Also, in addition to my earlier posts, I’d asked for information from you about the Va State police or any group saying it was illegal to conceal carry and wear a mask during these times. This would impact me personally. Since I didn’t get any, I went looking myself and figured that I’d correct the completely false statement above in case anyone may believe it or spread it around as truth:

https://www.whsv.com/content/news/S...-mask-while-carrying-concealed-570844441.html

As well, here is what the actual Code of Virginia says on the matter:

https://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/title18.2/chapter9/section18.2-422/

DR/TL version: As VA is under a declared “state emergency” (shouldn’t it be “commonwealth emergency?”), and in order to comply with the governors orders, it is NOT illegal to conceal carry and wear a face mask right now.


----------



## PhotonWrangler

A lot of newspapers have been laying off their real journalists and moving towards digital-friendly "journalists," but this is sad.


----------



## Greta

bykfixer said:


> Some of who I know personally and know _*they don't have a valid reason to not cover up.*_



I guess I don't really understand this. What is considered a "valid reason"? Wouldn't "cuz I don't wanna" be considered valid? :shrug::thinking:


----------



## wacbzz

Greta said:


> I guess I don't really understand this. What is considered a "valid reason"? Wouldn't "cuz I don't wanna" be considered valid? :shrug::thinking:



The VA governor specifically listed the “valid reasons” why one doesn’t have to wear a face covering and “cuz I don’t wanna” _isn’t _one of those: 

https://www.governor.virginia.gov/m...Wear-Face-Covering-While-Inside-Buildings.pdf


----------



## Greta

wacbzz said:


> The VA governor specifically listed the “valid reasons” why one doesn’t have to wear a face covering and “cuz I don’t wanna” _isn’t _one of those:
> 
> https://www.governor.virginia.gov/m...Wear-Face-Covering-While-Inside-Buildings.pdf



Yep. Still don't wanna. And that's valid for me. Guess it's good I don't live in VA :ironic:

FWIW: I have not gone anywhere where a mask is "required". I can wait to get my nails done - (actually enjoying taking care of them myself) - I only get my hair "done" twice a year and honestly have been handling that pretty well myself too. I do almost ALL of my shopping online or have it delivered to my house or do curbside pick up. Granted - I live in a city/county/state that has not been hit as hard as so many others. But I have adapted. Heck, I took an Uber to the Cigar Bar yesterday and didn't even have to wear a mask for that! The driver didn't wear one either - had a fabulous conversation with him!  ---- I guess my motto coming out of this is "You do you, Boo!"... I really don't care to judge others for their choices. And honestly couldn't give a damn about any who judge me.


----------



## bigburly912

wacbzz said:


> The VA governor specifically listed the “valid reasons” why one doesn’t have to wear a face covering and “cuz I don’t wanna”



I forgot it in my car and wanted to take pictures on a crowded beach with all my adoring fans is a valid reason however.


----------



## bykfixer

Greta said:


> I guess I don't really understand this. What is considered a "valid reason"? Wouldn't "cuz I don't wanna" be considered valid? :shrug::thinking:








^^ Not to this guy. ^^


----------



## Poppy

wacbzz said:


> The VA governor specifically listed the “valid reasons” why one doesn’t have to wear a face covering and “cuz I don’t wanna” _isn’t _one of those:
> 
> https://www.governor.virginia.gov/m...Wear-Face-Covering-While-Inside-Buildings.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> <SNIP>


wacbzz,
This is snipped from your link above as a part of the VA governor's order.

D. Exceptions
The requirement to wear a face covering does not apply to following:

1...
6. Persons with health conditions that prohibit wearing a face covering. Nothing in this Order shall require the use of a face covering by any person for whom doing so would becontrary to his or her health or safety because of a medical condition.

Any person who declines to wear a face covering because of a medical condition shall not be required to produce or carry medical documentation verifying the stated condition nor shall the person be required to identify the precise underlying medical condition

I can see how some will misinterpret this to mean that they could just lie, and state that they have a medical condition, and get off "Scott Free". 
That is NOT the case.

They can be given a summons, and then if they choose to go to court, I am sure they will have to produce a doctor's note confirming that they have a medical condition, and that wearing a face covering would be detrimental to his/her health.

The order would be in contradiction to HIPPA* if not for the inclusion of that exception; but now, written as it is, it does not require the person to release any SPECIFIC health information.
* Note: HIPPA stands for Health Information Portability and Privacy Act. It is Federal Law.


----------



## bykfixer

With our local mall now back open and today being a nice day Mrs Fixer and I decided to go out and enjoy an afternoon at the mall. I wanted to buy a pair of shoes from a mom n pops that had been closed up. So we went to one knowing they carry our favorites brand(s) of flip flops. We left there with some shoes then went to a JC Penney to perhaps put a buck or two in their pocket to help keep a 100 year old legacy going. 

We walked hand in hand throughout a giant empty building with most stores not even bothering yet. No ice cream shop, no soda fountain or hobby shops open. The stores that were open were nearly empty except JC Penney where I found some great deals, but the place had one check out line with about 100 people all packed together, bumping into each other. I put the stuff back on the racks they came from and left empty handed. 

One place, a cajun restaraunt was having a grand opening. Tough timing there. The parking lot to that place was empty. Nobody at the book store, the greeting card store, the kids clothing store and the furniture store near it. 

Overall it was a fairly depressing experience. But this years flip flops were bogo so there was that.


----------



## wacbzz

bigburly912 said:


> I forgot it in my car and wanted to take pictures on a crowded beach with all my adoring fans is a valid reason however.





bykfixer said:


> ^^ Not to this guy. ^^



Quick to the draw you both are, but sadly, both wrong on your timelines. His “face covering” decree was *after* the beach incident. Just looking for a reason to dislike the order doesn’t count for being correct. 

Byk, you should pay closer attention to what’s going on in VA. You were already incorrect about the legality of face coverings and conceal carry. Not “liking” something doesn’t make it wrong...

...and certainly not tyrannical.

Folks have been making such a big deal about posting stuff here on CPF that is factually incorrect...well, perhaps we should just restart that idea from here forward...how about only truth or facts and not opinion of truth or facts?


----------



## bigburly912

wacbzz said:


> Quick to the draw you both are, but sadly, both wrong on your timelines. His “face covering” decree was *after* the beach incident. Just looking for a reason to dislike the order doesn’t count for being correct.
> 
> Byk, you should pay closer attention to what’s going on in VA. You were already incorrect about the legality of face coverings and conceal carry. Not “liking” something doesn’t make it wrong...
> 
> ...and certainly not tyrannical.



He started it within the next few days after he got blasted over it which kind of validated anyone’s excuse not to want to wear one. Dislike the order, what are you talking about? I’ve been a proponent of the face masks since the beginning. Pretty quick to the draw you are.


----------



## scout24

wacbzz said:


> I’m pretty sure that when you were writing that, you knew it was bunk, in the exact same way that the VP made the announcement in 2017 that he was going to a game where he _knew_ guys would be kneeling and then waited to leave until the cameras were on him to do it. That wasn’t a “two way street peaceful protest,” in addition to showing support for his president, that was pure pomp and circumstance that cost taxpayers a bunch of money that didn’t need to be spent.
> 
> Quick question Byk...has the VA state police or any local policing force/union/lobbyists vocalized any complaint about the “legality” of wearing a mask as the Gov has proclaimed? Perhaps I missed reading that but would gladly read any of their arguments if you provide me with some links.
> 
> And “tyrannical?” Please. How in the mind of reason and logic would requiring a mask or face covering when entering an enclosed building rise to the level of “cruel and oppressive government or rule?” I’ve just gotta shake my head at that thought process...
> 
> “Please do not enter this building without a mask or face covering” We posted a version of that WaWa sign up on the two doors to our business yesterday. We were slammed packed ALL day with customers wearing masks. We only had one person come in without one (his wife was wearing one - and also wearing a shirt that said “I’m with stupid” [j/k about the shirt part  ]) and when we asked him to please put one on that we would provide for him, he did. Some people actually do look out for the common good.
> 
> Again, very few of the whiners about wearing a mask have probable ever complained about the no shirt or no shoes policy simply because they never had a narrative to fill. Plus it’s an election year!



I'm not even going to dignify your reaction to my comment and your lack of understanding with a discussion. Here or elsewhere. The cause is lost if there is not a 2 way street. You're entitled to your opinion. Hope you enjoy it.


----------



## wacbzz

Don’t now act like you posted what you did to somehow show that he was being hypocritical to his order...

And great reply Scout. You know where I’m at posting most of the time anyway. I’ll listen to your Mike Pence defense...:laughing:


----------



## bigburly912

You need a hug?


----------



## wacbzz

bigburly912 said:


> You need a hug?



Yes...but make sure you wear a face covering. :grouphug:


----------



## bigburly912

I have since this started and will continue to do so. You obviously have me confused with someone else on the board or something.


----------



## bykfixer

Wacbzz. Dude, really? I get the impression you are intent on starting an argument. You seem to hold the grudge here. 

Did you see his press conference the day before when he was seen violating his own policy when he said he was going to impose a mask rule at his next breifing? The reason he decreed masks when he did was to get people like you all revved up at others not wearing masks. And like many, you let him play you like a fiddle. 

And regarding word tyranny you seem to harp on, go do your research at the 1200 laws he just put in place. Many which violate a number of parts of the constitution. 

I started a masks thread back in mid April so folks here could gain know how on them. Over 100 posts on that one. 

Now please let it go dude. Seriously.


----------



## StarHalo

bykfixer said:


> a giant empty building with most stores not even bothering yet.



Because they laid off their workforce - they can't open yet because there's no one to operate the store. They'll reopen next week once they've gotten a hold of the previous employees or found replacements.




bykfixer said:


> went to a JC Penney to perhaps put a buck or two in their pocket to help keep a 100 year old legacy going.


The future's not bright there; I'm not disrespecting their legacy, but if you didn't have many customers to begin with, and now customers will all have to abide by rules just for the honor of walking in the store, it's not going to go well..


----------



## raggie33

Whats scary is covid 19 backwards is 91divoc wrap your mind around that!


----------



## bykfixer

Actually Star many say it's too soon for them due to fear of being sued. Some won't reopen at all. It's like that all over the place. Many fear the ambulance chaser right now. 

But I do agree there's likely a labor shortage right now. And the Penneys thing was already an issue before the pandemic. You're right, it probably won't end well. We just wanted to put some $ in their register today. Sadly there will probably be another giant store empty next door to where Sears used to be. Sign of the times. Meanwhile the closeout stores were jamming.


----------



## Poppy

bykfixer said:


> Actually Star many say it's too soon for them due to fear of being sued. Some won't reopen at all. It's like that all over the place. Many fear the ambulance chaser right now.
> 
> But I do agree there's likely a labor shortage right now. And the Penneys thing was already an issue before the pandemic. You're right, it probably won't end well. We just wanted to put some $ in their register today. Sadly there will probably be another giant store empty next door to where Sears used to be. Sign of the times. Meanwhile the closeout stores were jamming.


I can't comment on the fear of being sued as a concern of small shops, but I know a safety director for a construction company who has made multiple recommendations, to the owners, that they do not bid on certain work, for fear of being sued, relating to covid issues/lawsuits, coming down the pike.

I wonder how high or low a threshold, the courts, or legislature will set, regarding suits to be heard. Certainly the first group of cases will be precedent setting.


----------



## wacbzz

Not starting an argument or holding a “grudge” Byk, just intent on making sure 100% false information being posted is corrected. Obviously, you’re not a fan of folks not buying in to your narrative, but you spreading false info is just wrong. 

I bring up “tyranny” because you used the word a few posts back(#971). Not me, you. I’m open to reading the “1200” laws that Northam just put into law that “violate the constitution.” Please provide me and everyone else here with evidence of such violations. Otherwise, your interpretation of what you call “tyranny” simply just shows a lack of real understanding of what the word means. Ask the family of George Floyd what “tyranny” really means...

And yes, I saw Northam’s press conference. Regardless, said conference was still *before* his decree. You and Burly tried to use the Va Beach thing as some type of evidence that Northam was talking out the side of his neck about the mask issue, and you both are simply wrong. “Needing” to wear a mask before the decree and “having” to wear a mask after the decree are two entirely different things. I can’t help with basic understanding of this.

I don't mind you guys not liking a Democrat as governor, but don’t use that dislike to spread your false narratives. Simple enough.


----------



## StarHalo

bykfixer said:


> Sadly there will probably be another giant store empty next door to where Sears used to be. Sign of the times.



Loss of anchor stores means you might have a dead mall on your hands, hope you have other shopping alternatives nearby..


----------



## scout24

This thread is supposed to be Coronavirus related, let's not be bringing the riots, demonstrations, or names involved into it. That's a non-starter, evidenced by how fast the last one got shut down.


----------



## scout24

wacbzz- PM sent.


----------



## raggie33

Ok riddle me this? Why is some foods in shortage? We still eat the same amount and have the same population. So why is food hard to find? I understand why mask are hard to find . Also tp we still have the same amount of bowel movements


----------



## wacbzz

scout24 said:


> wacbzz- PM sent.



Scout - received. I’ll answer later tonight. Getting charcoal ready right now...


----------



## StarHalo

raggie33 said:


> Ok riddle me this? Why is some foods in shortage? We still eat the same amount and have the same population. So why is food hard to find? I understand why mask are hard to find . Also tp we still have the same amount of bowel movements



Because 1) people who don't know how to properly prepare mass-buy things at the last minute out of fear, and 2) people who like to take advantage of situations mass-buy to resell at a raised price. 

One alternate view regarding TP specifically is that people were stealing it from the workplaces they are now no longer going to/laid off from, but that doesn't cover people buying entire pallets of it.


----------



## wacbzz

raggie33 said:


> Ok riddle me this? Why is some foods in shortage? We still eat the same amount and have the same population. So why is food hard to find? I understand why mask are hard to find . Also tp we still have the same amount of bowel movements



Raggie - I’m on the lookout for sprouts for you!


----------



## raggie33

wacbzz said:


> Raggie - I’m on the lookout for sprouts for you!


Lol i want them i wanna have egg foo young. I love bean sprouts


----------



## raggie33

StarHalo said:


> Because 1) people who don't know how to properly prepare mass-buy things at the last minute out of fear, and 2) people who like to take advantage of situations mass-buy to resell at a raised price.
> 
> One alternate view regarding TP specifically is that people were stealing it from the workplaces they are now no longer going to/laid off from, but that doesn't cover people buying entire pallets of it.


i still have 7 rolls and 1 roll of some one ply stuff its so bad not sure where it came from


----------



## wacbzz

Let’s all have a cheap, but good one together...and crush it like Quint!!












Getting ready for some brats and the conclusion to the 30 For 30 on Lance...


----------



## bykfixer

wacbzz said:


> Not starting an argument or holding a “grudge” Byk, just intent on making sure 100% false information being posted is corrected. Obviously, you’re not a fan of folks not buying in to your narrative, but you spreading false info is just wrong.
> 
> I bring up “tyranny” because you used the word a few posts back(#971). Not me, you. I’m open to reading the “1200” laws that Northam just put into law that “violate the constitution.” Please provide me and everyone else here with evidence of such violations. Otherwise, your interpretation of what you call “tyranny” simply just shows a lack of real understanding of what the word means. Ask the family of George Floyd what “tyranny” really means...
> 
> And yes, I saw Northam’s press conference. Regardless, said conference was still *before* his decree. You and Burly tried to use the Va Beach thing as some type of evidence that Northam was talking out the side of his neck about the mask issue, and you both are simply wrong. “Needing” to wear a mask before the decree and “having” to wear a mask after the decree are two entirely different things. I can’t help with basic understanding of this.
> 
> I don't mind you guys not liking a Democrat as governor, but don’t use that dislike to spread your false narratives. Simple enough.



Ahhhhh, the virtues of a ……never mind


----------



## raggie33

wacbzz said:


> Let’s all have a cheap, but good one together...and crush it like Quint!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Getting ready for some brats and the conclusion to the 30 For 30 on Lance...


That reminds me of my rocket stove. Which is a cool camping stove that can burn wood papper or pine combs. It uses science i love it


----------



## bigburly912

wacbzz said:


> don't mind you guys not liking a Democrat as governor, but don’t use that dislike to spread your false narratives. Simple enough.



If I’m included as one of the “you guys” you reference I’ll just put out that my favorite politician in Virginia’s history was Rick Boucher. He did his job and made sure people were taken care of. He lost re-election simply because he endorsed President Obama which was unfair to him after everything he did for us. You don’t want to hear that though I’m sure.


----------



## wacbzz

F


bykfixer said:


> Ahhhhh, the virtues of a mouthy leftist puppet………
> 
> People have had their concealed carry permits revoked for wearing masks in a store during the pandemic. My brother was one of them.
> 
> Right now there is a Marine in jail in Chesterfiled county being held without charges for something he said on Facebook about the governor.
> 
> The governor was visiting his vacation home at the outter banks when non residents were not allowed there. Facebook took the story down saying false statements but folks I used to surf with there saw him and have a photo of him buying those famous sunglasses in TW's tackle shop.
> 
> He says I have to live by his laws but he doesn't have to. What is one to take from all of that? Narrative? Just telling a story of a person living in a pandemic while watching government leaders flex their muscles for pure political gain. Oh, and I know folks who know the governor, who went to college with the guy and have a beach home on the same street as him. And they confirm he is nothing more than a puppet for big money donors.
> 
> Meanwhile your words are straight out of leftist propaganda machines, you just don't know it. I feel sorry for you brutha. I really do. Your words show how draconian measures make you feel better whether it's practical or not. I wear a mask. I have since the thing began. My wife and I donated personal protective gear when it was scarce. My company uses some of my ideas in the office building to aid in thwarting the spread.
> 
> So again I say, back to your side of the street.



Really?

Right back at you with the propaganda and being a mouthpiece for your president. 

Post your brothers CC carry warrant because of wearing a mask. I call straight BS. 

The “marine” in jail for speaking about the Governor was from *2012*. Brandon Raul? You’re using him as _current_ info? More 100% FALSE VA news from you to push your narrative. You’re on a roll with the false info. You really are a tool of the right...

https://www.nbc12.com/story/19324653/marine-detained-for-facebook-posts/

If that’s not the story, name the “marine” *currently* in jail in Chesterfield Co here pubicly. I’ll wait...otherwise, who’s the PAWN now? Aren’t you embarrassed for posting a 100% lie AGAIN?

Nice edit job to your post. I’ve saved and photoed your BS post for posterity’s sake...

Please provide the info I’ve asked for or stop posting the right wing propaganda.


----------



## wacbzz

raggie33 said:


> That reminds me of my rocket stove. Which is a cool camping stove that can burn wood papper or pine combs. It uses science i love it



LOVE the rocket stove. It was my most used backpacking stove until I got my Jetboil...


----------



## raggie33

Here is some happyness a great dog being a hero https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PZo-JZPyaso


----------



## knucklegary

bigburly912 said:


> You need a hug?



I say he needs a good smack up the back of head. Knock some sense into him, if for nothin else, for drinking such crappy beer!


----------



## wacbzz

knucklegary said:


> I say he needs a good smack up the back of head. Knock some sense into him, if for nothin else, for drinking such crappy beer!



No smacking the back of the head for the guy posting 100% false info?!

Not a Gansett guy huh?


----------



## archimedes

If this thread is to continue to remain open, everyone needs to dial it back a notch (at least)

Most of you have been around here long enough to know what stuff is acceptable here, and take the rest to The Underground


----------



## archimedes

And on the off chance that some of you might not yet have read this notice, please do ...

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=468177


----------



## raggie33

archimedes said:


> If this thread is to remain open, everyone needs to dial it back a notch (at least)
> 
> Most of you have been around here long enough to know what stuff is acceptable here, and take the rest to The Underground


You have my word sir .only pg post from me have a bleesed night


----------



## bigburly912

wacbzz said:


> LOVE the rocket stove. It was my most used backpacking stove until I got my Jetboil...



See we all can agree on something!


----------



## StarHalo

knucklegary said:


> for drinking such crappy beer!



We must lead by example


----------



## bigburly912

StarHalo said:


> We must lead by example



Wow! A lady I worked with was from Seattle and was always talking about this local craft beer that was amazing. She brought me some type of Elysian back after a visit to her daughter and it really was great. I’m not sure if that was it or not as it’s been a couple years. Thanks for the brain refresh. I had forgotten all about that.


----------



## scout24

Empath said:


> This is a continuation of this thread. The topic is welcome here. Political discord isn't. For that use our Underground Board.



In case Arch wasn't clear on this page, and myself on the last page, here's a refresher from one of our Admins when he started this Part II... Just a reminder.


----------



## raggie33

At least we can all agree cats are jerks . https://youtu.be/Itq8_HOPEXU


----------



## knucklegary

raggie33 said:


> You have my word sir .only pg post from me have a bleesed night



^ What raggie said me too 

Sorry for delay had to change my diaper 😇


----------



## KITROBASKIN

From post# 746


bykfixer said:


> ...like the Spanish flu did. It bagan as a virus that killed the young. After a time it took out middle aged folks, then eventually the elderly. Autopsies have revealled it may have mutated into 3 distinct strains in a 2-3 year period. And to this day it still roams planet earth from host to host. At times it mutates into a strain we do not have herd immunity to and takes out 10's of thousands all over again. *And thanks to some knucklehead in some lab somewhere* we now have a novel virus that may do the same thing over the next century or more.



Still have not read where that observation came from, and the veracity thereof.


----------



## Poppy

Working on changing the topic,

Wouldn't you know, that due to the corona crisis, that there are more people working from home, have flexible hours, or are out of work. Also that kids are out of school, or are doing virtual classes and can flex their learning times.

All this means is that there are many people doing family things, much more this year than in the past ten years. Things like going for walks, bicycling, hiking, canoeing, kayaking,... etc.

All that is wonderful, but our family is one kayak short of four, and one bicycle short of 3. Neither is obtainable at this time, unless you are willing to get one that is upscale and pay the price that most will not! Yesterday we were able to spend a day at the lake. We used my son's kayak, and he borrowed a jet-ski. 

Fortunately, personally, we have toilet paper, although still in short supply in the stores, and protest meetings in New Jersey have been respectful, without looting's etc.


----------



## Greta

wacbzz said:


> Raggie - I’m on the lookout for sprouts for you!



Can you find some Ramen Noodles for *ME*? Please? I don't care what flavor. I just want the noodles so I can make an Asian chicken coleslaw salad! I only need two packages!! :mecry:


----------



## nbp

StarHalo said:


> We must lead by example



Right on bro, that’s a fine brew! 

Tonight I enjoyed a Flying Dog Double Dog double IPA, a 12% delight. Just chillin with one of my homies - needed some normal human contact. Zoom doesn’t cut it forever.


----------



## raggie33

Greta said:


> Can you find some Ramen Noodles for *ME*? Please? I don't care what flavor. I just want the noodles so I can make an Asian chicken coleslaw salad! I only need two packages!! :mecry:


If you was local id give you some ramen


----------



## Poppy

Greta said:


> Can you find some Ramen Noodles for *ME*? Please? I don't care what flavor. I just want the noodles so I can make an Asian chicken coleslaw salad! I only need two packages!! :mecry:


If this will work for you, PM me your address.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Speaking of Ramen Noodles, I ran out during this covidemic thing and it took almost 3 weeks for me to find some back in stock and they are still running out of them now and then. I wish I could just find the noodles in bulk instead of buying a 12 pack of bricks of them for $2.27 at Walmart.


----------



## archimedes

Greta said:


> Can you find some Ramen Noodles for *ME*? Please? I don't care what flavor. I just want the noodles so I can make an Asian chicken coleslaw salad! I only need two packages!! :mecry:



PM sent


----------



## bykfixer

I stand by my posts. 

I really tried to stay away from name calling and even deleted a previous post where my words were accusatory. They were later quoted apparently while I was deleting them. 
I said before I'm not wanting to get into a fish measuring contest. I stand by that as this thread was trying to take a bad turn. I did try to avoid playing a part in that. 

My applologies to the staff trying to maintain order in this one for my part in the finger pointing.


----------



## knucklegary

My store has the low MSG version 

How many would you like?

Excellent with boiled piernas de pollo


----------



## Poppy

Lynx_Arc said:


> Speaking of Ramen Noodles, I ran out during this covidemic thing and it took almost 3 weeks for me to find some back in stock and they are still running out of them now and then. I wish I could just find the noodles in bulk instead of buying a 12 pack of bricks of them for $2.27 at Walmart.


It seems they are in stock now at amazon
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01NBSVK0G/?tag=cpf0b6-20


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Poppy said:


> It seems they are in stock now at amazon
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01NBSVK0G/?tag=cpf0b6-20



$13.45 vs $2.27...... WOW!...... a bit too high someone should report this to Amazon IMO
Here is a better price 
https://www.google.com/shopping/pro...&ved=0ahUKEwjW9NnA2t_pAhUPPq0KHS-SDRkQ8wII0gQ
Not free shipping..... but $6.29 aint bad for that much nooooodles


----------



## StarHalo

Lynx_Arc said:


> $13.45 vs $2.27...... WOW!...... a bit too high someone should report this to Amazon IMO



All backordered, which means it's not in stock and the price is being driven up by demand.

If I were in the market for ramen, I'd get it from the dollar store..


----------



## Lynx_Arc

StarHalo said:


> All backordered, which means it's not in stock and the price is being driven up by demand.
> 
> If I were in the market for ramen, I'd get it from the dollar store..


I think Zon and Ebay must have artificial logic in their automatic pricing that drives prices up as when stock runs low or out the price jumps on everything there is regardless and I don't think people are changing their prices on everything there is every time it goes rare or out of stock.


----------



## wacbzz

Greta- I’ve plenty of noodles here that I would send you, but it seems I’ve been beaten to the punch many times over...

Since my first beer wasn’t a hit, I’ll try a second...

Cheers to all the COVID-19 beer snobs, untruth spreaders, and two way streeters!!!


----------



## nbp

Never had Turkish style beer but you had me at barrel aged Imperial Stout. [emoji106]🏻


----------



## 5S8Zh5

_For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple and wrong.

__H. L. Menken_


----------



## Poppy

Lynx_Arc said:


> $13.45 vs $2.27...... WOW!...... a bit too high someone should report this to Amazon IMO
> Here is a better price
> https://www.google.com/shopping/pro...&ved=0ahUKEwjW9NnA2t_pAhUPPq0KHS-SDRkQ8wII0gQ
> Not free shipping..... but $6.29 aint bad for that much nooooodles




Wow!!!
I had no idea that they are regularly so inexpensive. 
I apologize for my ignorance. Posting a $13 find must have looked like a snide comment.
I don't know what I paid for them, they just jumped into my cart one day, after looking at some hiking trail recipes. Even at $1 a piece I wouldn't have known that I over paid.
When you posted $2.27, I thought that was each, not for the 12 pack.
Wow!


----------



## bigburly912

They are regularly on sell around here for 10 for a dollar.


----------



## Devildude

As I sit here after getting out of work sipping on a Brooklyn Brewery Black Chocolate Stout at 10% you have made me rethink my choice for today. I have over a case of Lickinghole Creek Heir Apparent at 11.7% that is from Virginia that would be almost as good. I will have to try and find the one mentioned above as it sounds very desirable.


----------



## raggie33

bigburly912 said:


> They are regularly on sell around here for 10 for a dollar.


do they have nutrition? If they do im stocking up if i see them on sale


----------



## wacbzz

Devildude said:


> As I sit here after getting out of work sipping on a Brooklyn Brewery Black Chocolate Stout at 10% you have made me rethink my choice for today. I have over a case of Lickinghole Creek Heir Apparent at 11.7% that is from Virginia that would be almost as good. I will have to try and find the one mentioned above as it sounds very desirable.



LCCB makes some great beers. Virginia has an almost overwhelming amount of craft breweries. The problem with them is that almost every one of them makes one particularly awesome beer...and ten shite beers that they also sell. I find LCCB to be one of the few that make more than one great beer. Their Nuclear (nu-klee-er or nuke-u-ler ) Nugget is a heck of a great beer. Their Oyster Stout, while not appeasing sounding, is quite tasty.

Btw, November 14, 2020 is the release date for the new Ibrik. Mark your calendar!

https://oconnorbrewing.com/happening/ibrik-day-ibrik-turkish-coffee-stout-release/


----------



## turbodog

StarHalo said:


> Because 1) people who don't know how to properly prepare mass-buy things at the last minute out of fear, and 2) people who like to take advantage of situations mass-buy to resell at a raised price.
> 
> One alternate view regarding TP specifically is that people were stealing it from the workplaces they are now no longer going to/laid off from, but that doesn't cover people buying entire pallets of it.




People staying home are going to eat more cooked food. Typical person eats out a significant % of their meals... think it's around 25% or so.

Same with TP. People staying home increases home TP usage like 40% or so.

Concerning meat... the virus is hitting the meat processing plants. Here in MS it's ravaging the chicken processing plants. I would expect the same with beef also.


----------



## Greta

raggie33 said:


> do they have nutrition? If they do im stocking up if i see them on sale



Hahaha! I seriously doubt it! - except maybe if you need LOTS of sodium in your diet! :laughing:


----------



## bigburly912

Also loaded with cholesterol raising components. They are bad for you


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Poppy said:


> Wow!!!
> I had no idea that they are regularly so inexpensive.
> I apologize for my ignorance. Posting a $13 find must have looked like a snide comment.
> I don't know what I paid for them, they just jumped into my cart one day, after looking at some hiking trail recipes. Even at $1 a piece I wouldn't have known that I over paid.
> When you posted $2.27, I thought that was each, not for the 12 pack.
> Wow!


Yes ramen noodles used to be a lot cheaper as others have posted finding it 10/$10 but the cheapest I've seen it is the shrink wrapped 12 packs at Walmart and Aldi's which used to be $1.94 till this covidemic thing.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Greta said:


> Hahaha! I seriously doubt it! - except maybe if you need LOTS of sodium in your diet! :laughing:


Incredible amounts of sodium. I purposely take the "flavor" (salt) packages out and can use a single packet for about half the case of noodles. I have a can of the flavor packets I figure I've taken about 50,000mg of sodium out of my diet over the past months as I have slightly elevated blood pressure so I try and limit salt where I can.


----------



## StarHalo

raggie33 said:


> do they have nutrition? If they do im stocking up if i see them on sale



Ramen daily would be the fast track to a heart attack, that’s why it’s just college kids who stock it and not preppers. The staples are the cheap and healthy meals.


----------



## raggie33

StarHalo said:


> Ramen daily would be the fast track to a heart attack, that’s why it’s just college kids who stock it and not preppers. The staples are the cheap and healthy meals.



I bought grits today i hope i like grits i dont recall haveing them before


----------



## raggie33

Greta said:


> Hahaha! I seriously doubt it! - except maybe if you need LOTS of sodium in your diet! :laughing:



My sodium was low not sure why i use so much salt


----------



## Whitelight1

You guys with all your barley wines are making me miss Hair of the Dog Brewing Company. When I lived in Cali, I used to get bottles for $3.30 a piece at Trader Joe's. I have looked online everywhere and even spent 30 minutes looking like a crazy man in the craft beer isles of ABC liquor here. I would pay $10 a bottle for a few bottles of Adam. When I was drinking it they only had 5 flavors all named after people. Adam and Fred are my favorite and clock in around 10%-12% ABV. I have been settling for this instead, and ironically a very high end eatery/pub stocks it just for me.


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

When did this thread jump the track and turn into the burnt beer and Ramen noodles thread? :laughing:


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> When did this thread jump the track and turn into the burnt beer and Ramen noodles thread? :laughing:


Some folks gotta do something with all this being socially distant stuff going on these days..... they could drink Ramen Beer and burn noodles instead.


----------



## nbp

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> When did this thread jump the track and turn into the burnt beer and Ramen noodles thread? :laughing:



We were ‘bout to rumble ‘n riot but decided to just get drunk together instead. Seemed the better option in these unprecedented times. :drunk:


----------



## raggie33

Whats weird anf is trully freaking me out today after the ramen post i was watching a cooking show and the topic was ramen. The host even had a ramen shirt on


----------



## raggie33

https://youtu.be/trb64BZbRDA


----------



## PhotonWrangler

An italian doctor believes the Coronavirus is weakening there. The article has some mixed messages and it seems that not everyone there is in agreement though.


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

nbp said:


> We were ‘bout to rumble ‘n riot but decided to just get drunk together instead. Seemed the better option in these unprecedented times. :drunk:



Yes, I felt the urge to R/R myself. Decided to go outside and have a mow instead. I also decided to man-up and leave the riding mower in the garage. Ended up mowing everything with the walk-behind. He he, I had two liquid bread breaks while mowing. Hence the not so straight lines. Cheers, fellow CPFers. :buddies:


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Last of the Mow-He-Cans eh?


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

:hahaha:


Lynx_Arc said:


> Last of the Mow-He-Cans eh?



That's clever. Well done, Lynx. :thumbsup: 

As far as heritage goes, it depends on which grandparent you trust. One reports us as Comanche. However, my maternal grandfather swears - We ani't no damn Comanche! We're Choctaw."


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> :hahaha:
> 
> That's clever. Well done, Lynx. :thumbsup:
> 
> As far as heritage goes, it depends on which grandparent you trust. One reports us as Comanche. However, my maternal grandfather swears - We ani't no damn Comanche! We're Choctaw."


I'm sposed to be part Cherokee but since I'm not on the rolls I dunno which part of me izz dat.


----------



## bykfixer

I noticed yesterday more restaraunts getting creative about outside dining areas like parking tables outside in a grassy area next to the parking lot, or since 50% capacity allowed (in my state) in unused parking spots. What was even better to see (at least to me) was folks out there enjoying a sit down meal again. 

I also noticed with people I ran into or spoke with on the phone, everybody was a lot less edgey than they were just last week despite all of the snarling taking place across the country. There was a buzz of peace, as smiles were wider while a nice breeze from the north cooled the warm sunshine. 

Maybe it was because our grocery stores are fully stocked again, or no long lines at the McFood joint drive thru as tables are now available. Perhaps it's because folks can get a haircut again here? I dunno. But there was definitely an uptick in morale yesterday. At least on my little slice of planet earth.


----------



## Poppy

Mr Gardener,
It looks great to me! :thumbsup:

My Dad always said, "You know the difference between a good hair-cut, and a bad hair-cut? About two weeks." 

In the morning... those lines will be gone, and tomorrow, you'll get to do it all over again. I hope you have more bread, to keep your energy levels up.


----------



## Poppy

bkkfixer,
I am glad to hear that you and the people in your community are feeling more relaxed.

Hopefully it is true that the virus has lost some of its strength, and there won't be a back-lash, and everything will go back to "Life as it was" with few dramatic changes.

Here's hoping... fingers crossed :twothumbs


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

Thanks, Poppy. I spent a lot of extra time on the lawn during the first month of our state's stay at home order. It was therapeutic being able to get outside and work.


----------



## raggie33

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> Thanks, Poppy. I spent a lot of extra time on the lawn during the first month of our state's stay at home order. It was therapeutic being able to get outside and work.


My grass is aweful i live in a condo and it has something that pokes in my feet it hurts so bad to walk in it


----------



## bykfixer

Poppy said:


> bkkfixer,
> I am glad to hear that you and the people in your community are feeling more relaxed.
> 
> Hopefully it is true that the virus has lost some of its strength, and there won't be a back-lash, and everything will go back to "Life as it was" with few dramatic changes.
> 
> Here's hoping... fingers crossed :twothumbs



It was more like everybody had Bobby Darin and Frank Sinatra tunes stuck in their head instead of the usual "kill kill kill" death metal tunes blasting the airwaves lately if you know what I mean. A kind of "life goes on during war time" vibe if you know what I mean. One guy was estatic over a pear he had just eaten. I mean jump up and click your heels together estatic. 
There was a scene in Band of Brothers where a small group was playing symphony music in a destroyed town square while folks sifted through the rubble looking for food, furniture or whatever they could salvage. It was kinda like that.


----------



## Poppy

bykfixer said:


> It was more like everybody had Bobby Darin and Frank Sinatra tunes stuck in their head instead of the usual "kill kill kill" death metal tunes blasting the airwaves lately if you know what I mean. A kind of "life goes on during war time" vibe if you know what I mean. One guy was estatic over a pear he had just eaten. I mean jump up and click your heels together estatic.
> There was a scene in Band of Brothers where a small group was playing symphony music in a destroyed town square while folks sifted through the rubble looking for food, furniture or whatever they could salvage. It was kinda like that.


Well my friend, you did a better job of describing how people were being more relaxed, the first time around.

It seems to me that pear guy was a little over reactive. Fresh fruit has always been available.


----------



## Poppy

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> Thanks, Poppy. I spent a lot of extra time on the lawn during the first month of our state's stay at home order. It was therapeutic being able to get outside and work.


It has obviously been a labor of love.
I couldn't spend as much time as you due to allergies. Nor would I enjoy it as much.

Once I grew a vegetable garden. Once! 
My allergies were pretty significant then, and pulling weeds, wasn't fun.
By time the veggies were ripe, they were so darn cheap at the supermarket, that there wasn't a savings (not much) and my wife wouldn't eat them because there were cats that roamed the neighborhood. Afraid they may have done their business any where near the veggies. The argument that there is wild life out at the farms didn't hold any water.

Your property is beautiful!
:thumbsup:


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

bykfixer said:


> .... One guy was estatic over a pear he had just eaten.



He he ... Reminds me of Kramer and the Mackinaw peaches.


----------



## bykfixer

Yup kinda like that CG. 
He however he did not offer to share it though. By the time we spoke he had already finished 90% so I probably would have reacted like ole Jerry.


----------



## Poppy

Chauncey,
That was funny!

I don't remember seeing that episode.
Kramer was probably the best actor on the set.


----------



## KITROBASKIN

*Regarding the possible origin of Covid-19 (mid-May 2020)*

Animals at wildlife farms in China are one of the first places to look, says Peter Daszak, president of the non-profit EcoHealth Alliance in New York City. Farms stock many captive-bred animals, from civets to raccoon dogs and coypu, a large rodent, often living close to livestock such as pigs, chickens and ducks. “These farms are usually wide open to bats, which feed at night above the pens, and some of which roost in the buildings. They are also usually linked to people’s houses so that whole families are potentially exposed,” says Daszak, who has visited many villages, wildlife markets, bat caves and farms in southern China over the past 15 years.
“The opportunities for these viruses to spill over across a very active wildlife–livestock–human interface is clear and obvious,” he says.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-01449-8


----------



## ledbetter

Thanks for the very informative link. Journals such as Nature are a wealth of accurate and trusted information in this age of mocking science and the media.


----------



## RedLED

I have been to China, and the first time I went to a meat market I was in shock! My wife was with me, and she grew up on a ranch in Mexico, so it was no big deal to her, however, I grew up in Beverly Hills, California, and any meat to our home came in butcher paper from the store.

At the the meat market I saw a man cutting the heads off what looked like cobra snakes, dogs penned up to be slaughtered, and the smell...it stunk to high hell. I could not wait to get out of there. Third world, man!

Other than that, I like it China, and the Chinese people are nice.


----------



## RedLED

Things are starting to open up here in the desert. I went to In N' Out yesterday, and they are still drive thru only with a long line so I went to a local diner we like and got a bag full of cheeseburgers, and fries. I put a fifty in the tip jar, and the girl went crazy.


----------



## Poppy

Red,
She'll remember YOU next time you come through. :thumbsup:

Other than a paper route, my first job was in a fast food burger place, burgers cooked on a grill, and chicken parts in deep fried oil.
They paid us less than minimum wage, because they could get away with it stating that we might get tips. Never did I see a tip in the year that I worked there.


----------



## RedLED

Pop,

There are three groups of people you want to take care of:

1. People who make your food.

2. People that cut your hair.

3. The Dr. who takes care of you and writes your Rx.


----------



## Poppy

RedLED said:


> Pop,
> 
> There are three groups of people you want to take care of:
> 
> 1. People who make your food.
> 
> 2. People that cut your hair.
> 
> 3. The Dr. who takes care of you and writes your Rx.



Red,
Years ago, my best friend's friend, was a hair cutter, but in NJ, the state combined the barber's license, and beautician's license into one, and he had to do a number of straight edge shaves to get the combined license. My friend, my Dad, and I, went to the school for him, to do us up, and get the credits he needed.

Little did I know, that he had virtually NO experience. He was so nervous shaving my peach fuzz, that he was literally dripping sweat off his nose, onto my face. He asked for help from the female instructor, and as she stood over me, I could look up and see a three inch scar, just under her jaw line, (just about the length of the razor being held to my throat!)

I imagine that her's was a surgical scar, perhaps. 

So YES... take care of those who cut your hair, and hold a razor to your face! :thumbsup:


----------



## RedLED

I have had the same girl cut my hair for years, I was her first customer. Today she has become big time, and my wife thinks I tip her too much but I think it is just because she is cute.

ADD: Really, she is HOT!


----------



## bykfixer

RedLED said:


> Pop,
> 
> There are three groups of people you want to take care of:
> 
> 1. People who make your food.
> 
> 2. People that cut your hair.
> 
> 3. The Dr. who takes care of you and writes your Rx.



I worked with a guy who said that. A time later he said "also remember if you marry a divorce attorny's aide don't get caught cheating on her."


Poppy, I have a scar on my jaw from a common ailment where a salivary gland gets clogged and if not caught in time has to be removed. Trouble is by the time you notice the lump it's too late usually. So the conventional way (back when mine was removed) was to take it out the old fashioned way. Cut you open, pluck out the "tumor" (they called it) and sew you back up. The doctor used very fine stitches so at a glance it looks like I had a partial "Columbian necktie" administered. 
She may have had that issue (hopefully) but I can imagine it was un nerving to you to see that at that moment. 

My state slated to enter phase 2 at the end of the week if the trend continues. Not sure what restrictions will be lifted and to what degree. But am sure I will continue to live as if flu season has been extended a few more innings and carry around my little spray bottle of peroxide, stay 6' from non family and keep a face covering handy. To me, as long as their are cases rising as fast as they are it's still prudent to proceed with caution. 

I have an intern starting with me tomorrow. First thing I'll do is aim my thermometer at him and make him show me his personal protective equipment is on hand and ready to deploy. Then I'm going to show him how to determine a 6' circle. I shook one guys hand today, then pulled out my spray bottle of peroxide and sprayed my hand. He reached out to shake. I said "hell I aint scared, but hope you aint offended that I disinfect" as we shook hands. He laughed and held out his hand after for a spritz his own self. I mean afterall life goes on, but with a more cautious approach to living it.


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

I was recently asked - "If you can smell a man's fart from five feet away, a fart that had to travel through his underwear and jeans to reach your nose, how's a thin cotton mask supposed to keep you safe?" :eeew: 

I thought he made a valid point. :thinking: 


Thoughts


----------



## Johnnyh

I can only think of the next warning label “Warning: this mask is not impermeable to gaseous emissions from flatulent persons, pets or barnyard animals”.


----------



## PhotonWrangler

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> I was recently asked - "If you can smell a man's fart from five feet away, a fart that had to travel through his underwear and jeans to reach your nose, how's a thin cotton mask supposed to keep you safe?"
> 
> I thought he made a valid point. :thinking:



Well, can you smell it through the mask? 

Seriously though, when you smell an odor it's because there are tiny aerosolized particles of that substance that reach your nose. I remember hearing a famous radio host/doctor discuss this topic once and he wasn't sure whether this was significant (in terms of odors, not viruses).

What makes this more complicated is that they've found that virus particles can be present in an infected person's, uh, _emissions_, although the speculation was that the clothing provides enough filtering to catch a lot of it. But probably not all of it. I've also read that the viral load affects whether you're likely to get infected; a very small number of virus particles would be taken out by the immune system fast enough to avoid a full blown infection, but a brief exposure to a large amount of the virus particles would be more likely to take hold and overwhelm the immune system at the outset.

Too bad we can't smell the virus.


----------



## SCEMan

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> I was recently asked - "If you can smell a man's fart from five feet away, a fart that had to travel through his underwear and jeans to reach your nose, how's a thin cotton mask supposed to keep you safe?" :eeew:
> 
> I thought he made a valid point. :thinking:
> 
> 
> Thoughts



Hopefully Dr. Fauci will "get wind" of this and offer his expert opinion...


----------



## Empath

The present tangent may not be off-topic, but it does stink.


----------



## wacbzz

I know you guys think this beer sucks, but I had one hell of a Tuesday at work and the quickest, best way that I could get home and put it all behind me was with some Gansett and some brats...







For the senders of the PM’s, I promise I’m going to answer them. I’ve just been having my *** kicked so hard at work because of....dummies....that I just want to come home and go right to bed. Patience. I will answer, because there needs to be an answer to them.


----------



## bykfixer




----------



## raggie33

For real yesterday i go to check mail and i saw a red thing in mail box i assume is trash or something i go to knock it out it moved it was the scariest looking wasp i have ever seen. Insect love my mail box


----------



## turbodog

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> I was recently asked - "If you can smell a man's fart from five feet away, a fart that had to travel through his underwear and jeans to reach your nose, how's a thin cotton mask supposed to keep you safe?" :eeew:
> 
> I thought he made a valid point. :thinking:
> 
> 
> Thoughts



They smell due to gases, not particles. Corona relies on particle transmission. 

Apples to Oranges.

https://kidshealth.org/en/kids/fart.html


----------



## 5S8Zh5

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> how's a thin cotton mask supposed to keep you safe?



when you wear a mask, it helps to keep you from touching your nose and mouth, infecting your self. wearing glasses helps keep you from touching your eyes. washing your hands with soap after your trip outdoors takes care of the rest.


----------



## bykfixer

Does the virus not need to be suspended in a liquid in order to leave the person? 
Some filters allow gases to pass through that do not allow liquids to easily pass through. A coffee filter for example would probably not be an adequate virus blocking mask. At least for incoming virus, yet would do a pretty decent job at drastically reducing the velocity of an outgoing virus of a persons droplets when speaking, coughing or sneezing. I would surmize most of the outgoing liquid would remain attached to the inside of the face covering (called the dirty side by some).

It's that or everybody move about wearing gas warfare face coverings.


----------



## raggie33

Ive been trying to save money by useing a walmart shoping bag it works great but i get so dizzy wearing it


----------



## Whitelight1

RedLED said:


> Pop,
> 
> There are three groups of people you want to take care of:
> 
> 1. People who make your food.
> 
> 2. People that cut your hair.
> 
> 3. The Dr. who takes care of you and writes your Rx.




I agree with that list but since I shave my own head, number 2 is out for me.

When I was younger I went to the bar everyday after work with buddies. We would stay for 8 hours most of the time. I decided one night to wait for the entire place to get packed then I bought everyone in the Applebees a lemon drop, then I did another. My bill was $382 that night. About $320 more than normal. I ended up tipping her $500. Yes, I was a big tipper and not wise. However, every watering hole I went to I got the best service, and they all knew what I drank and had it ready sometimes before I even walked in the door. Those were the good old days.

To the current topic, What exactly is this mask thing again? I saw some people in Target yesterday with strange things over their mouths. I guess they think they are getting off this earth alive or something crazy like that. LOL!


----------



## KITROBASKIN

PhotonWrangler said:


> Too bad we can't smell the virus.



In a Finnish study, dogs learned to recognize the distinctive odor of a coronavirus infection. In the future, dogs might be able to detect infected people in nursing homes or at airports.

This, from a website in Germany previously unknown to me but the information they have from Finland is not found in known sites considered somewhat reliable.

https://www.dw.com/en/dogs-can-sniff-out-covid-19/a-53582252


----------



## Greta

KITROBASKIN said:


> In a Finnish study, dogs learned to recognize the distinctive odor of a coronavirus infection. In the future, dogs might be able to detect infected people in nursing homes or at airports.
> 
> This, from a website in Germany previously unknown to me but the information they have from Finland is not found in known sites considered somewhat reliable.
> 
> https://www.dw.com/en/dogs-can-sniff-out-covid-19/a-53582252
> 
> 
> Murder Hornets look diabolical, you ask me. Hyenas creep me out too. Am I starting to sound like Raggie The Kind Hearted? Are his words contagious? Will we all start talking like Raggie? Can a murder hornet read my mind? Can I get a random remarks thread?




Can we please bring this back around to the topic in the thread title?


----------



## KITROBASKIN

Greta said:


> Can you find some Ramen Noodles for *ME*? Please? I don't care what flavor. I just want the noodles so I can make an Asian chicken coleslaw salad! I only need two packages!! :mecry:


----------



## Greta

Heck of a lot more relevant than whatever the hell that was you posted. :ironic:



.... and my post didn't get reported by another member. Yours did.


----------



## Johnnyh

Just thinking, if NYC does not suffer a second wave of Corona virus cases/ deaths after the throngs of protesters intermingling, won’t this throw the whole social distancing stuff into serious doubt?


----------



## Greta

Johnnyh said:


> Just thinking, if NYC does not suffer a second wave of Corona virus cases/ deaths after the throngs of protesters intermingling, won’t this throw the whole social distancing stuff into serious doubt?



I've been thinking about this too :thinking: - Not just NYC either. Will we see an uptick in numbers in certain parts of the country? I'm not so sure social distancing was/is a bad idea. But perhaps it's not as GOOD an idea as first thought? I suppose it could be argued "better safe than sorry" because, honestly, no one really knew anything about this particular virus. They still don't. Time will tell. It will be interesting, for sure!

_"May you live in interesting times" - _contrary to popular belief, it is a curse not a blessing.


----------



## StarHalo

Greta said:


> Will we see an uptick in numbers in certain parts of the country? I'm not so sure social distancing was/is a bad idea. But perhaps it's not as GOOD an idea as first thought?



You were better off with it than without (Arizona, new cases per day) :


----------



## Greta

SH - Still hard to say. We don't know what caused the spike. Those numbers are not reflected in my city... and I've posted what our Memorial Day weekend looked like. I'm thinking big cities like Phoenix and Tucson did not have the massive invasion of visitors that we had. So why the increase in numbers in those cities but not mine? I don't have the answers. I don't know. Like I said... time will tell.

Meanwhile... I'm living my life. I don't own a mask. I go to my Cigar Bar. I've gotten really good at doing my own nails and have decided I'm going to save my money on that little "luxury" now. And I trim my own hair... have been doing that for years now. I've been getting groceries delivered or doing curbside pickup for over a year now. Other people can do and believe what they want - don't care. But time will tell. Meanwhile... let the data keep coming! But let's not play armchair quarterback by interpreting it ourselves to fit our own agendas when no real interpretation has been given by ... well... anyone! :shrug:


----------



## KITROBASKIN

Yes I was mistaken not following forum rules. Fixer posts funny things and was going with that. I am requesting the quote on post 1105 be deleted.


Greta said:


> Heck of a lot more relevant than whatever the hell that was you posted. :ironic:
> 
> 
> 
> .... and my post didn't get reported by another member. Yours did.


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

Greta said:


> SH - Still hard to say. We don't know what caused the spike. *Those numbers are not reflected in my city... and I've posted what our Memorial Day weekend looked like. I'm thinking big cities like Phoenix and Tucson did not have the massive invasion of visitors that we had. So why the increase in numbers in those cities but not mine?* I don't have the answers. I don't know. Like I said... time will tell.
> 
> Meanwhile... I'm living my life. I don't own a mask. I go to my Cigar Bar. I've gotten really good at doing my own nails and have decided I'm going to save my money on that little "luxury" now. And I trim my own hair... have been doing that for years now. I've been getting groceries delivered or doing curbside pickup for over a year now. Other people can do and believe what they want - don't care. But time will tell. Meanwhile... let the data keep coming! But let's not play armchair quarterback by interpreting it ourselves to fit our own agendas when no real interpretation has been given by ... well... anyone! :shrug:



Your city had boats + water + beautiful weather + *lots n lots of adult beverages* = dead virus.


----------



## Greta

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> Your city had boats + water + beautiful weather + *lots n lots of adult beverages* = dead virus.



As they (who *ARE* they?!?!) say... another day in Paradise... :wave:


----------



## Johnnyh

Yes, I’m living my life too. My three kids and their kids and I have pretty much stopped “social distancing”. My Barber is taking appointments (and is swamped), go in on Tuesday. Golf league got nixed but many of us still go out on Wednesday afternoon. No masks. Sold my Harley and got a little Japanese bike ( don’t hate me, it’s truly more fun than the Hog was.) Go to the store when I need to and buy what I need. Basically, I stopped worrying about the virus. I still I wash and sanitize my hands a lot though. Life really does go on...


----------



## turbodog

Spoke w/ my cousin today, MD/Er doc/primary care doc, about current virus status in the deep south.

The timely takeaway from him, as it applies to the recent posts, is that changes in behavior (memorial day, beaches opening, etc) has a 2 week delay before cases spike. I would have thought it closer to a week.

I know my wife's hospital, as of yesterday, has ZERO ICU beds available, and it's a large hospital.

On the 'good news' side. Wife reports that PPE at the hospital, even with a full ICU, is plentiful now (and not being rationed). No word on what the PPE is costing currently, last data was about a 500% price increase from supplier(s).


----------



## raggie33

I quit wearing my mask . To be honest i just dont care anymore the world is so aweful now. If i get corona i get to have no more pain. If i get corona ill then wear a mask i dont want to harm anyone with corona


----------



## turbodog

I've been following the data from the beginning, both for the US and the World. I'm not making the data fit an assumption. I'm looking at it and seeing what trends it shows, anomalies it reveals, and so on. Here's a sample of what I have on the US.

I took the reported active cases and displayed them as a rate (cases per million residents). Anything NOT as a rate, percentage, etc is meaningless.

april 10	1125 (50 state average)
april 16	1458
april 17	1505
april 20	1624
april 24	1885
april 28	2038
may 1 2205
may 5 2412
may 8 2526
may 14	2624
may 18	2883
may 22	2890
may 26	2909

If you compare april 10 (1125) to may 1 (2205), you can see a doubling in ~20 days. Thankfully you do NOT see a doubling from may 1 to may 22 (about another 20 days).

I say 'we are slowing it down' not 'it's slowing down' because the virus will spread as fast as we let it (or help it).

What you do NOT see in the data is a drop in the rate.


----------



## Monocrom

Well, Chase Bank in NYC has decided to go back to business as usual. Used to be, line up, 5 people at a time, social distancing and mask wearing strictly enforced. And that's if you happen to find a branch that even offers teller services. Opened at 9:30am, closed at 4pm. And if you didn't line up at least 40 minutes before the place opens, you're going to be waiting outside for over an hour. 

Well, not anymore! showed up; security officer welcomes me in. Tells me things are back to normal. Not too normal though. The bank hours are back to normal. Couple of other things too, apparently. Everyone still wearing masks. Literally everyone. So surreal the first time I walked into the bank after things had changed. I'm wearing a black baseball cap (as usual). I'm wearing an N95 mask, I'm wearing disposable gloves. Security officer doesn't bat an eye. I'm politely welcomed by the bank teller who recognizes me.... So surreal.

Have amassed an impressive collection of masks. Mostly, handmade by clearly very well-skilled seamstresses on Etsy. I've become an expert on masks, filters, and making effective DIY hand-sanitizers. You'd all be surprised how much I've given away to friends and acquaintances. Box of gloves, hand-sanitizer, masks, and filters. Yeah, there's a new type of survival kit out there. NY state, #1 in infection and death rates. More impressive than literally most countries. Approximately 1/5 the death tool in the entire nation. Would like to tell you guys what I'd like to see happen to our lovely Governor. But I'm sure you can use your imaginations. Doesn't involve hugs, or unicorns, or gum-drops; that's for sure. 

Thankfully the local supermarket is run by a very obnoxious older woman who isn't going back to business as usual, yet. And likely not anytime soon. So that's the latest update from the most infected city in all of America.


----------



## StarHalo

raggie33 said:


> I quit wearing my mask . To be honest i just dont care anymore the world is so aweful now. If i get corona i get to have no more pain.



Coronavirus is a respiratory infection; if you want to know how you die from it, take a fish out of water and watch it for several minutes - that's you over the course of several days. You don't want Coronavirus.


----------



## Monocrom

StarHalo said:


> Coronavirus is a respiratory infection; if you want to know how you die from it, take a fish out of water and watch it for several minutes - that's you over the course of several days. You don't want Coronavirus.



And studies conducted here in NYC have shown that approximately 1/3 of all infected also develop severe kidney issues too.


----------



## Greta

And can anyone give me the data on the recovery rate? How many people who have had it have had a full recovery? Anyone? Bueller?


----------



## Monocrom

Greta said:


> And can anyone give me the data on the recovery rate? How many people who have had it have had a full recovery? Anyone? Bueller?



Wish I could provide you with those numbers, Greta. But as far as a *full* recovery goes, I seriously think those numbers will be quite small. As S.H. pointed out, those who get infected, and then recover; can expect a lifetime of respiratory issues with the damage the virus does to patients' lungs.


----------



## turbodog

Greta said:


> And can anyone give me the data on the recovery rate? How many people who have had it have had a full recovery? Anyone? Bueller?



The last day I posted data for, May 26, saw a US average of 2909 active cases per million people, and a death rate of about 10% of that.

I have not looked as hard at death numbers as I have infection ones. The deaths lag infection by a couple of weeks so they are harder to compare. However, that said, there is no data CURRENTLY to show that death rates are dropping.

Common sense suggests that once the virus burns through the most vulnerable the death rate should taper off. However, if infection rates keep increasing, eventually healthcare system(s) will be overrun which may counteract this.


Anecdotally, I can tell you about my father, mother,and aunt who have all recovered. Dad showed symptoms (fever, slight cough) for several days. The women were completely asymptomatic. Wife has employees who have recovered. But we've also lost a few here and there...

Sort of important to note that these are CASE mortality rates, not overall. But we've got to make decisions based on what data is available (and historical data from prior pandemics).


----------



## archimedes

Greta said:


> And can anyone give me the data on the recovery rate? How many people who have had it have had a full recovery? Anyone? Bueller?



Latest info published by CDC (as of 5/20/20) presents 5 possible "scenarios" with various critical variables set at the lower and upper bounds of what may be supported by the data at this time (stratified by age) ...

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/planning-scenarios.html

The "fifth" scenario is their "best estimate"

Lots of info there, but overall estimated survival of "symptomatic cases" is cited at 99.6% (all ages)

They also approximate that 35% of infections are completely asymptomatic (with lower and upper bounds of 20% to 50% )

If that 35% value is correct, that would obviously increase the survival rate for "all cases" (including those without symptoms) to approximately ~ 99.74%


----------



## RedLED

Johnnyh said:


> Yes, I’m living my life too. My three kids and their kids and I have pretty much stopped “social distancing”. My Barber is taking appointments (and is swamped), go in on Tuesday. Golf league got nixed but many of us still go out on Wednesday afternoon. No masks. Sold my Harley and got a little Japanese bike ( don’t hate me, it’s truly more fun than the Hog was.) Go to the store when I need to and buy what I need. Basically, I stopped worrying about the virus. I still I wash and sanitize my hands a lot though. Life really does go on...


Wait you sold your Harley? Did you get a Honda Monkey bike? I am getting one to keep at our desert country club home to ride inside the club. My ninja 636 for outside the C.C! These monkey bikes are just like the Honda Mini Trails of the late 60's, and early 1970's. I had one in 1971' and loved it! So, I am going to get one soon.


----------



## turbodog

archimedes said:


> Latest info published by CDC (as of 5/20/20) presents 5 possible "scenarios" with various critical variables set at the lower and upper bounds of what may be supported by the data at this time (stratified by age) ...
> 
> https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/planning-scenarios.html
> 
> The "fifth" scenario is their "best estimate"
> 
> Lots of info there, but overall estimated survival of "symptomatic cases" is cited at 99.6% (all ages)
> 
> They also approximate that 35% of infections are completely asymptomatic (with lower and upper bounds of 20% to 50% )
> 
> If that 35% value is correct, that would obviously increase the survival rate for "all cases" (including those without symptoms) to approximately ~ 99.74%




Unless I'm misreading their chart/grid, those are not percentages... so multiply by 100%.

To note: "Parameter values are based on data received by CDC prior to 4/29/2020"

The time for symptoms and time to seek healthcare numbers mirror my cousin's experience of ~2 weeks.


----------



## RedLED

raggie33 said:


> I quit wearing my mask . To be honest i just dont care anymore the world is so aweful now. If i get corona i get to have no more pain. If i get corona ill then wear a mask i dont want to harm anyone with corona


Come on, Big Chief, wear your mask, and relax you will make it thru this. You Don't want to get the virus. Calm down, you willl be just fine. 

All the best,

RedLED


----------



## archimedes

turbodog said:


> Unless I'm misreading their chart/grid, those are not percentages... so multiply by 100%....



Correct, "overall symptomatic case fatality ratio" is estimated as 0.004 (or 0.4% )


----------



## bykfixer

To be honest I haven't been watching the numbers anymore. It seems as though in many places the numbers are still climbing, but more and more people are being tested. 

I get what some are saying that the numbers rising have accelarated. Frankly I still proceed with caution. But if I'm not mistaken, in numerous places the percentage of folks tested who show positive is declining. 

I have never feared dieing from it. Looking at numbers from places prior to it reaching the US showed (except N Italy) it wasn't very deadly. My fear was the lung damage afterward. My lungs or those of my senior around me at work. My biggest fear has been causing others to end up with damaged lungs if they got the virus from me. 

In some places the hand shake may be a thing of the past. But in places where the spread is nill folks are starting to shake hands again. The weather has turned to right warm in my state lately, so we shall see if and how that affects things here.

Edit: Went back and looked numbers for my state by age group and saw my age group that was in first place moved back to third. 50-59 was first with 60-69 racing for first. 40-49 and 30-39 took over and are neck and neck with 20-29 racing my age group for third. Meanwhile 60+ are falling farther behind in the case numbers total. 
40-49 was giving 50-59/60-69 a run for a while but broke away with 30-39 pulling up beside it. It'll be interesting to see how the large gatherings in big cities affects the numbers in the 20-29/30-39 group as that apprears to be ages of most gatherers. 
End edit.


----------



## Devildude

I agree with not wanting to give someone lung damage. I was diagnosed with asthma in February and I am still dealing with it. Not what I call fun but I spent a lot of time in my youth working on dairy farms and a lot of summers in the hay mows stacking said hay. I would not wish this on anyone.


----------



## Poppy

Monocrom said:


> And studies conducted here in NYC have shown that approximately *1/3 of all infected* also develop severe kidney issues too.


Sorry, but I call BS to this.

Serologic testing results released on April 23, 2020 showed that 21% of NYC has antibodies, (one must have been infected to develop antibodies.) A quick calculation of 9,000,000 people means that approximately 1,890,000 people have been infected. Yet there are only 200K confirmed cases, with 16,000 deaths.

Two weeks ago, May 20, 2020 Here are the results of antibody testing in NYC

Amid the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic, Governor Andrew M. Cuomo today announced the results of the state's antibody testing survey at churches in lower-income New York City communities and *communities of color show 27 percent of individuals tested positive for COVID-19 antibodies, compared with 19.9 percent of New York City's overall population. *The data was collected from approximately 8,000 individuals and shows high positive rates and continued high community spread in these low-income communities.

more...


----------



## idleprocess

Looking over my county's statistics:

1435 total confirmed cases (0.16% / population)
705 active cases (49.1% / confirmed)
698 recovered cases (48.6% / confirmed)
32 deaths (2.2% / confirmed)
13,900 total tested : 89.7% negative; 887k estimated population / 1.5% tested

That curve _isn't flattening_. Mercifully the case load seems manageable based on the top-level utilization statistics provided. Of the two closest hospitals, one seems to have a relative handful in isolation wards and another seems not to have any right now.

Mask mandates have effectively expired and by my rough estimate only about 25% of people out and about are wearing them with retail staff at _perhaps_ 75%.

Testing remains the great unknown - there have been some drive-through testing popups but they're often restricted or during work hours. I suspect a statistically significant cross-section of the county has skipped testing for the above reasons as well as feeling fine and avoiding contact with large numbers of people. Like areas that have done larger-scale tests there's probably a markedly greater asymptomatic prevalence in the community than the hard numbers suggest - and as such the actual lethality rates are surely lower and the recovery numbers far better.


----------



## ledbetter

Interesting new reports saying tear gas will likely accelerate spread of Covid, which makes the protesters‘ signs to the police to stop killing them sadly ironic.


----------



## RedLED

California has begun allowing restaurants to open again with some rules, however, the restaurants themselves are adding their own rules. Example, you make a reservation several days out, then they call you, and ask your name, and birthdate, as well as, the names and DOBs of all in your party, and then when you arrive you are asked a series of medical questions, and one negative response from your party cancels everyone out from dining. If all answer OK, they sign a release.

This from the people who complained so much about being closed? If I owned a restaurant, I would keep it closed instead of going through all this garbage the lawyers want. 

What a ** nightmare. I would not eat at a place that did this. Let me add, that I want the restaurants back more than anyone, I hate cooking, grilling - all of it. I have spent decades traveling and eating at some wonderful places, and really miss it.

** Really?


----------



## PhotonWrangler

Any restaurant that demands everyone's DOB is doing something highly questionable. This is a potential vector for identity theft and I imagine that this practice will get shut down pretty quickly.


----------



## bykfixer

Nope, not going to a restaraunt like that.

We have some rules being put in place in my state too Red, but nothing like that. 

Wait until 5g is wide spread. You won't have to tell them who you are because they'll already know. 
A fellow did a story about his experience with it in China saying he rented a bicycle using a 5g phone and google wallet. He said at one point he entered a restaraunt and while looking at an e-menu the screen said "hello (insert his name here)" and asked what he would like to order. He said the money was automatically deducted from his google wallet. He said when he returned the bicycle he tossed the 5g phone in the trash. 

Another story corona related is police in China have thermometers built into their visors that tell the "system" of cameras when a person read above normal body temp and that person would be quickly whisked away by the corona cops. 

It's probably pretty convenient to walk into a burger joint and the menu know who you are and what you typically order, but pretty freaking scarey at the same time.


----------



## Monocrom

Poppy said:


> Sorry, but I call BS to this.



Link ~ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wzci-h9dOPs

Also ~ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obdhys0hEGA

And ~ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJtfesZlvcw

Feel free to type in "Kidney issues and covid-19" into the YouTube Search bar for a mountain of more videos dealing with how the two issues are related. Or, simply believe what you want to. I don't spread BS on these forums. And I've been on CPF long enough that others know it too. Honestly, I took you off of my Ignore List a couple of weeks ago because I forgot why I put you on there. Thanks for reminding me. Appreciate it. Back on you go.


----------



## StarHalo

You'll be more receptive to going to the restaurant when there's no movie theater..


----------



## Monocrom

StarHalo said:


> You'll be more receptive to going to the restaurant when there's no movie theater..



AMC has said they might likely have to file for bankruptcy. Streaming services crippled them, looks like the planetary pandemic and being forced to close, might end them.


----------



## Johnnyh

RedLED said:


> Wait you sold your Harley? Did you get a Honda Monkey bike? I am getting one to keep at our desert country club home to ride inside the club. My ninja 636 for outside the C.C! These monkey bikes are just like the Honda Mini Trails of the late 60's, and early 1970's. I had one in 1971' and loved it! So, I am going to get one soon.



Yep, sold her off...got a Kawi Versys-X 300. Kind of a road/ dirt hybrid thing but a blast to ride. I looked at the Monkey and a Yamaha TW200. Both look like fun. I’m sure you’ll enjoy that Monkey, looks like a lot of fun!


----------



## RedLED

PhotonWrangler said:


> Any restaurant that demands everyone's DOB is doing something highly questionable. This is a potential vector for identity theft and I imagine that this practice will get shut down pretty quickly.


I Don't like it, and would never give my Info., I think it is in the event of a lawsuit, which there will be so many it will take decades to settle them all. However, there is no law against asking some one for their birthdate.

EDIT/ADD: These are not any government rules, they are what the owners are doing.


----------



## RedLED

Johnnyh said:


> Yep, sold her off...got a Kawi Versys-X 300. Kind of a road/ dirt hybrid thing but a blast to ride. I looked at the Monkey and a Yamaha TW200. Both look like fun. I’m sure you’ll enjoy that Monkey, looks like a lot of fun!


That is a great bike, I really like Kawasakis.


----------



## RedLED

StarHalo said:


> You'll be more receptive to going to the restaurant when there's no movie theater..


Dude, the last movie I saw in a theater was...Titanic. I have covered 28 Academy Awards, and even photographed the Titanic oscar night Party but I really dis like dark, smelly, God knows what people have done here sticky floors and rumbling sound theaters.


----------



## RedLED

bykfixer said:


> Nope, not going to a restaraunt like that.
> 
> We have some rules being put in place in my state too Red, but nothing like that.
> 
> Wait until 5g is wide spread. You won't have to tell them who you are because they'll already know.
> A fellow did a story about his experience with it in China saying he rented a bicycle using a 5g phone and google wallet. He said at one point he entered a restaraunt and while looking at an e-menu the screen said "hello (insert his name here)" and asked what he would like to order. He said the money was automatically deducted from his google wallet. He said when he returned the bicycle he tossed the 5g phone in the trash.
> 
> Another story corona related is police in China have thermometers built into their visors that tell the "system" of cameras when a person read above normal body temp and that person would be quickly whisked away by the corona cops.
> 
> It's probably pretty convenient to walk into a burger joint and the menu know who you are and what you typically order, but pretty freaking scarey at the same time.


Fixer,

Do you think that will happen here? I can see that in China but, not here. If it does, I'll keep my 4G.


----------



## turbodog

turbodog said:


> I've been following the data from the beginning, both for the US and the World. I'm not making the data fit an assumption. I'm looking at it and seeing what trends it shows, anomalies it reveals, and so on. Here's a sample of what I have on the US.
> 
> I took the reported active cases and displayed them as a rate (cases per million residents). Anything NOT as a rate, percentage, etc is meaningless.
> 
> april 10	1125 (50 state average)
> april 16	1458
> april 17	1505
> april 20	1624
> april 24	1885
> april 28	2038
> may 1 2205
> may 5 2412
> may 8 2526
> may 14	2624
> may 18	2883
> may 22	2890
> may 26	2909
> 
> If you compare april 10 (1125) to may 1 (2205), you can see a doubling in ~20 days. Thankfully you do NOT see a doubling from may 1 to may 22 (about another 20 days).
> 
> I say 'we are slowing it down' not 'it's slowing down' because the virus will spread as fast as we let it (or help it).
> 
> What you do NOT see in the data is a drop in the rate.



Well what do you know... I pulled updated figures today and we have a drop.

june 4 2797

Time will tell if this the start of a downward trend.

I pull my state each day, but nationally only about once a week, give or take.


----------



## bigburly912

The kidney thing makes sense. Lack of oxygen will destroy kidneys. Untreated pneumonia will destroy your kidneys. Also covid effects people at a substantially higher rate who would be more prone to kidney disease anyway. (Diabetics people with blood pressure problems/other heart disease) its another perfect storm for this crappy virus.


----------



## PhotonWrangler

bykfixer said:


> A fellow did a story about his experience with it in China saying he rented a bicycle using a 5g phone and google wallet. He said at one point he entered a restaraunt and while looking at an e-menu the screen said "hello (insert his name here)" and asked what he would like to order. He said the money was automatically deducted from his google wallet. He said when he returned the bicycle he tossed the 5g phone in the trash.



Stuff like this can be done today with 4g phones and bluetooth or ultrasonic beacons. This is an opt-in system though; you have to load an app that monitors your position and looks for the beacons. Some stores have used it for tracking where a customer is walking in the store and then pops coupons to your phone as you approach a specific area. In this sense it's similar to the coronavirus contact-tracing software which is also an opt-in system.


----------



## Poppy

Monocrom said:


> And studies conducted here in NYC have shown that approximately *1/3 of all infected also develop severe kidney issues* too.





bigburly912 said:


> The kidney thing makes sense. Lack of oxygen will destroy kidneys. Untreated pneumonia will destroy your kidneys. Also covid effects people at a substantially higher rate who would be more prone to kidney disease anyway. (Diabetics people with blood pressure problems/other heart disease) its another perfect storm for this crappy virus.


The virus can affect not only the kidneys, but multiple other systems and organs too.
If you would like an "idiots guide to multi-system failure due to the corona virus" 

Not for idiots, but dumbed down enough that most of us can understand a complex medical issue.

I won't debate that it can cause kidney issues, or a multitude of other issues. It CAN!

The *math does not support* the comment that *1/3 of all infected also develop severe kidney issues! *
That is simply false and inaccurate information.
It is the kind of nonsense that is repeated on the internet until people believe that it is true.

There are about 9,000,000 people in NYC. In April 3,000 people were tested for antibodies. 21% of them had antibodies, meaning that they had been exposed, and infected, such that the body created specific antibodies to fight off the invader. Do the math. That's about 1,800,000 people infected. I dispute the post above that 1/3rd of that would be 600,000 people were sick enough that they developed kidney damage. Only 200,000 were confirmed, and most did not go to the hospital. Let me tell you this: A person with severe kidney issues is NOT turned away from the hospital.

BigBurly,
You are smarter then that. Don't believe the nonsense.


----------



## Bullzeyebill

Let's keep ir cool guys. Respect the other persons right to post their isssues, with out trying to make them wrong personally. Attact the post not the poster. 

Bill


----------



## Kestrel

One post has been deleted.

Something I object to because I feel it to be unproductive, are posters *attacking each other* in the open forum.
The 'Golden Rule' for CPF is to "Attack the post, not the poster".

One metric I utilize - rather a simple one I confess - is to see how many times "you" is written - that last post had* 23* - that is a very clear example of what CPF staff specifically hope to avoid in civil discussions.

This post was only 40 minutes after prior staff instruction to 'keep it cool' - which posts such as that most certainly do not.

Best regards,


----------



## bigburly912

Poppy said:


> I won't debate that it can cause kidney issues, or a multitude of other issues. It CAN!
> 
> BigBurly,
> You are smarter then that. Don't believe the nonsense.



? I never said I thought a third of all people would suffer severe kidney issues. Just that If they did it wouldn’t surprise me because extreme lack of oxygen causes kidney issues. What do I need to be smarter than because your comment confused me.


----------



## bykfixer

PhotonWrangler said:


> Stuff like this can be done today with 4g phones and bluetooth or ultrasonic beacons. This is an opt-in system though; you have to load an app that monitors your position and looks for the beacons. Some stores have used it for tracking where a customer is walking in the store and then pops coupons to your phone as you approach a specific area. In this sense it's similar to the coronavirus contact-tracing software which is also an opt-in system.



Sure, kinda like when I went to Sears to buy screw drivers then did a web search at web md and got blasted with Sears ads for screw drivers. But with 5g the system is capable of becoming pretty scarey fast thanks to potential of vast expansions of available video data. 

Contact tracing without volunteering is not un-normal in China due to their form of government. In the US you supposedly to have to volunteer.


----------



## bigburly912

Just wanted to say the crew supervisor that had tested positive is back to work, doing fine.


----------



## turbodog

bykfixer said:


> Sure, kinda like when I went to Sears to buy screw drivers then did a web search at web md and got blasted with Sears ads for screw drivers. But with 5g the system is capable of becoming pretty scarey fast thanks to potential of vast expansions of available video data.
> 
> Contact tracing without volunteering is not un-normal in China due to their form of government. In the US you supposedly to have to volunteer.



It's 'geofencing' which a lot of companies use. I deal w/ car dealerships and practically all of them I've ever seen use it.


----------



## raggie33

I just ordered toilet papper from amazon its crazy it will be delivered today and i ordered it today. I payed to much im sure. But its better then walking down the street carrying tp lol. Now i just have to figure out the tip with out contact with the driver


----------



## StarHalo

154 JCPenny stores to close, see if yours is on the list.


----------



## raggie33

StarHalo said:


> 154 JCPenny stores to close, see if yours is on the list.



Never been in one before but i sure hate to think of all the jobs lost


----------



## Whitelight1

Okay, stock market is up , jobs are up, everything is fine and back to normal now.


----------



## StarHalo

Yesterday morning to today is the first 24 hour period with more than 1,000 deaths nationally.


----------



## SCEMan

bigburly912 said:


> Just wanted to say the crew supervisor that had tested positive is back to work, doing fine.



:thumbsup:


----------



## StarHalo

Las Vegas is reopening; here's how it'll work with the new rules:

- Signs will recommend masks but it's still optional for guests, all employees must wear masks. 

- Smoking is still allowed (and would require the state legislature to change it.)

- Essentially all buffets, nightclubs, shows, and spas are closed.

- All dining must be done by reservation in groups no larger than five (though more restaurants are now offering to-go.)

- Craps tables may have a maximum of three players at each end, with no crowding behind players. Blackjack, Pai Gow, and Roulette may have a maximum of three players per table. Many casinos are additionally opting for plexiglass barriers between players. 

- Roughly half the slot machines on any given floor will be closed/removed.


----------



## idleprocess

Got to say I'm at a loss regarding all the off-topic ... _excitement_ ... about 5G. It's just another RF standard for cellular data. A lot of the same hype being made about 5G is straight out of the 4G playbook of a ~decade ago. For most scenarios, 5G will be like marginally better 4G; the advantages will primarily be on the carrier side with greater density per cell site and more megabits / handsets per megahertz of spectrum. Low-band will have terrific reach but low density as a result. Mid-band will essentially be a 4G replacement and is how most will utilize the technology. The high-band gigabit stuff most of us have seen demo'ed is truly line-of-sight and blocked by almost anything - walls, windows, body parts, humidity, oxygen in the atmosphere - thus will likely only see deployments in the most dense of urban environments ... assuming the hefty cost/packaging/power premium for the bespoke handset antennas and transceivers is deemed worth it.

A lot of the tracking stuff being muttered about in this post is already happening using a variety of existing technologies. Bluetooth pinging to locate handsets with moderate precision (and determine unique persons at a location) happens constantly and doesn't depend on an application or other shadiness - just the bluetooth transceiver handling layer 2 RF chatter. If you use a retailer's app for coupons/deals/shopping, dollars to donuts it checks in every time you enter one of their stores and whispers all kinds of _sweet nothings_ to the retailer. More sinister stuff could be inserted at the application, operating system, firmware, or baseband processor level for sure - _but none of that requires 5G_.


----------



## Johnnyh

Two weeks ago, Governors across the States were all warning of dire consequences should people defy their social distancing rules. Suddenly, the rules are apparently suspended if you are out exercising your constitutional rights. Some of them even joined in! Yet those who gathered to protest the lockdown two weeks ago were skewered by these same people! What is going on? I’m so confused!


----------



## idleprocess

Johnnyh said:


> Two weeks ago, Governors across the States were all warning of dire consequences should people defy their social distancing rules. Suddenly, the rules are apparently suspended if you are out exercising your constitutional rights. Some of them even joined in! Yet those who gathered to protest the lockdown two weeks ago were skewered by these same people! What is going on? I’m so confused!



The smaller protests I'm seeing in my area are _generally_ following social distancing guidelines and about 100% of them are wearing masks - _outdoors in the TX summer_. The larger marches seem to be a bit less dense than they would be otherwise and mask use is also nearly 100% at those as well.

Not ideal, but better than standing shoulder-to-shoulder indoors at a crowded bar.


----------



## lion504

Johnnyh said:


> What is going on?


Hypocrisy.


----------



## bykfixer

Looking at restaurants and other parking lots like gymnasiums and such in my area was pretty cool to see how many folks are taking advantage of the opportunities to resume a more normal life style. So much for picking up takeout and watching a sunset in an empty parking lot. Mrs Fixer was kinda tired of me dropping french fries in between the seats of her car, so she'll be happy about that part. 
It's like being in a carni town and the carni has returned. I'm so glad for business owners. But from what some folks are saying, with the capacity limits you almost need a reservation to McDonalds right now. 
First world problems I suppose.


----------



## SCEMan

Johnnyh said:


> Two weeks ago, Governors across the States were all warning of dire consequences should people defy their social distancing rules. Suddenly, the rules are apparently suspended if you are out exercising your constitutional rights. Some of them even joined in! Yet those who gathered to protest the lockdown two weeks ago were skewered by these same people! What is going on? I’m so confused!



Just wingin' it...
https://www.dailybulletin.com/2020/...ange-but-the-economics-and-politics-sure-did/


----------



## Monocrom

StarHalo said:


> 154 JCPenny stores to close, see if yours is on the list.




Always unfortunate to see store closings from a Big Chain business. Especially one that sells good quality clothing at good prices for working stiffs. Shop there often.


----------



## StarHalo

Monocrom said:


> Always unfortunate to see store closings from a Big Chain business. Especially one that sells good quality clothing at good prices for working stiffs. Shop there often.



Ha, the last thing I bought from a Penny's was a nice black suit sport coat for $80, that was like ~6 years ago.


----------



## Poppy

SCEMan said:


> Just wingin' it...
> https://www.dailybulletin.com/2020/...ange-but-the-economics-and-politics-sure-did/



Yeah, not an enviable time to be a governor. Especially in hard hit states.


----------



## Monocrom

StarHalo said:


> Ha, the last thing I bought from a Penny's was a nice black suit sport coat for $80, that was like ~6 years ago.



You can still find those there.... ironically right around the same price too.


----------



## RedLED

Monocrom said:


> Always unfortunate to see store closings from a Big Chain business. Especially one that sells good quality clothing at good prices for working stiffs. Shop there often.


Please, please Don't tell my wife I bought her engagement ring at J.C. Penney's! PLease!


----------



## raggie33

RedLED said:


> Please, please Don't tell my wife I bought her engagement ring at J.C. Penney's! PLease!



I got mine from biglots my wife not a ring


----------



## RedLED

bykfixer said:


> Looking at restaurants and other parking lots like gymnasiums and such in my area was pretty cool to see how many folks are taking advantage of the opportunities to resume a more normal life style. So much for picking up takeout and watching a sunset in an empty parking lot. Mrs Fixer was kinda tired of me dropping french fries in between the seats of her car, so she'll be happy about that part.
> It's like being in a carni town and the carni has returned. I'm so glad for business owners. But from what some folks are saying, with the capacity limits you almost need a reservation to McDonalds right now.
> First world problems I suppose.


The new Maitre D': May we McSeat you, please?


----------



## bykfixer

Serveral years ago Red on a construction project this one foreman who was particularly adept at placing f-bombs in a sentence and it (aside from being a dirty word) completed his sentences nicely. The record on the project was 7 times in one sentence until the day his boss slid it in 8 times in one sentence and the sentence made sense. 
Those guys used to brag that the f-bomb is the most versatile word in the English language. 

One day another guy said a two letter word is even more versatile. "Show me" one guy says." The other guy said "McWell, McYou, McCan McUse Mc in McFront of McNearly McEvery McWord"………

McMeanMcwhile McBack to McTopic Mrs Fixer and I found that lines at drive throughs are much faster now that restaurants have dining in again. We stopped on the way home to buy some milk and in the grocery was that one guy with no face covering who was all glaring at everybody like "I dare you to say something". I did. "psst, c'mere fella", he said "what" all defensive like. I said "pissed at the government right now about the mask rule?" He says "dam right". I said quietly "well think about it this way, you have the chance to walk around anywhere you want to and nobody, not even the government camera knows who you are, enjoy the freedom" and started walking away. He hollers back "thanks bro I had not thought of that".


----------



## Whitelight1

bykfixer said:


> Serveral years ago Red on a construction project this one foreman who was particularly adept at placing f-bombs in a sentence and it (aside from being a dirty word) completed his sentences nicely. The record on the project was 7 times in one sentence until the day his boss slid it in 8 times in one sentence and the sentence made sense.
> Those guys used to brag that the f-bomb is the most versatile word in the English language.
> 
> One day another guy said a two letter word is even more versatile. "Show me" one guy says." The other guy said "McWell, McYou, McCan McUse Mc in McFront of McNearly McEvery McWord"………
> 
> McMeanMcwhile McBack to McTopic Mrs Fixer and I found that lines at drive throughs are much faster now that restaurants have dining in again. We stopped on the way home to buy some milk and in the grocery was that one guy with no face covering who was all glaring at everybody like "I dare you to say something". I did. "psst, c'mere fella", he said "what" all defensive like. I said "pissed at the government right now about the mask rule?" He says "dam right". I said quietly "well think about it this way, you have the chance to walk around anywhere you want to and nobody, not even the government camera knows who you are, enjoy the freedom" and started walking away. He hollers back "thanks bro I had not thought of that".



Except facial recognition software can see through masks.


----------



## StarHalo

Whitelight1 said:


> Except facial recognition software can see through masks.


----------



## archimedes

Faces aren't the only identifier ....

https://apnews.com/bf75dd1c26c947b7826d270a16e2658a


----------



## PhotonWrangler

Yeah they can still pick up faces but at greatly reduced accuracy. They're not really seeing through the mask - they're discarding those data points and focusing on what's left, which isn't much. A high resolution thermal imager can pick up a little bit of detail from under the mask, but it's noisy, blurry and not anywhere near good enough to aid with facial recognition. 

Apple recently modified their facial recognition system for unlocking phones to "give up" earlier and default to other means of authentication when the user is wearing a mask.


----------



## archimedes

PhotonWrangler said:


> .... Apple recently modified their facial recognition system for unlocking phones to "give up" earlier and default to other means of authentication when the user is wearing a mask.



Yes, not sure which is more disturbing ... unlocking your phone with a "faceprint" or that it is programmed to know when you are wearing a mask :thinking:


----------



## Lynx_Arc

archimedes said:


> Yes, not sure which is more disturbing ... unlocking your phone with a "faceprint" or that it is programmed to know when you are wearing a mask :thinking:


What could be worse is if you cannot disable the mask override bit and someone who isn't you wearing a mask to defeat facial recognition so they can use a password or whatever else.


----------



## StarHalo

PhotonWrangler said:


> Apple recently modified their facial recognition system for unlocking phones to "give up" earlier and default to other means of authentication when the user is wearing a mask.



And as someone who has to unlock an iPhone with a mask on all day every workday, I can confirm that not only does the mask make it impossible, but a pair of Ray-Bans works just as well. 



Lynx_Arc said:


> What could be worse is if you cannot disable the mask override bit and someone who isn't you wearing a mask to defeat facial recognition so they can use a password or whatever else.



It wouldn't work - the phone is measuring the height/depth of your facial features, so a mask would have to replicate that as well.


----------



## KITROBASKIN

raggie33 said:


> I got mine from biglots my wife not a ring


Good one raggie, almost as funny as your comment in the 'learned the hard way' thread. Tell us more about your wife; How is she handling the whole Covid scene?


----------



## Monocrom

The tellers at my local bank can recognize me even when I'm wearing a mask, and my usual black baseball cap pulled low over my head. Then again, I can easily recognize each one of them. Even with masks, you just get used to who all the regulars are. Works both ways. 



> *RedLED* - "Please, please Don't tell my wife I bought her engagement ring at J.C. Penney's! PLease!"



No worries. Your secret is safe with me. I'm sure you took precautions and made sure she has no clue what your log-in is on CPF. Right?


----------



## raggie33

KITROBASKIN said:


> Good one raggie, almost as funny as your comment in the 'learned the hard way' thread. Tell us more about your wife; How is she handling the whole Covid scene?


Just was trying to give laughs. I’m not married won’t get married unless lady Gaga ask me lol


----------



## bykfixer

Monocrom said:


> No worries. Your secret is safe with me. I'm sure you took precautions and made sure she has no clue what your log-in is on CPF. Right?



I wonder how much it is worth to ole Red to make sure Mrs Red does not find out her ring came from JC Penney……
Gold is gold. If it came from Wal Mart or a jewelry store. These days with the price of gold Mrs Fixer and I stashed our real rings and wear stainless steel. 

We went out driving and found the WalMart closed at sundown. There were about 15 porta-john's in the parking lot. We saw that and thought "hmmm, do they know something we should know" and went to a Target. Again it was the only store that did not close at sundown. They had a variety of mask styles available so I bought a few. Nobody but us and employees had masks on. No patrons at all. So when I went to check out, the check out lady thanked us. I kept my nose uncovered until we got in line simply because once I get near people I cover up out of respect even though the numbers in my community are flat. Out of respect for the front line employee I'll cover up. She chuckled at my "covid 19 sucks" mask.


----------



## PhotonWrangler

The WHO has updated their guidance regarding masks and they're now saying that a single layer fabric mask is not enough for protection. Masks should have at least three layers, and possibly more depending on the fabric used and how the materials are laid together. The article goes into quite a bit of detail in terms of the actual air pressure differential on both sides of the mask.


----------



## nbp

iPhones with facial recognition still require you to have a password. For example after you update your iphone you still have to enter your password to initiate use. So the “mask update” doesn’t change the ability for someone with your password to still unlock your phone. You don’t need your face. 

My iPhone 11 can FaceID me with a hat and sunglasses on no problem. It will not recognize me with a mask on. So I have to use a password when I am with customers and have a mask on.


----------



## StarHalo

nbp said:


> iPhones with facial recognition still require you to have a password. For example after you update your iphone you still have to enter your password to initiate use. So the “mask update” doesn’t change the ability for someone with your password to still unlock your phone. You don’t need your face.



But your fifth amendment right covers only the password and not the face ID; a police officer who pulls you over and feels it'd be nice to look through your phone can order you to do it via face ID, but a double-click on the power button to disable it and require the password means your phone is now off the table.


----------



## nbp

I thought we were talking about unlocking phones with masks, what are you even talking about?


----------



## bykfixer

PhotonWrangler said:


> The WHO has updated their guidance regarding masks and they're now saying that a single layer fabric mask is not enough for protection. Masks should have at least three layers, and possibly more depending on the fabric used and how the materials are laid together. The article goes into quite a bit of detail in terms of the actual air pressure differential on both sides of the mask.



I thought they reccomended "filtering" via face covering all along. I did not know this was something new. Perhaps it was the cdc back then? 
My wife made a slew using two layers and a hepa sandwiched between a while back. We used a BiC lighter and (lack of) sunshine getting through to determine the cloth.


----------



## Monocrom

bykfixer said:


> We went out driving and found the WalMart closed at sundown. There were about 15 porta-john's in the parking lot. We saw that and thought "hmmm, do they know something we should know" and went to a Target. Again it was the only store that did not close at sundown. They had a variety of mask styles available so I bought a few. Nobody but us and employees had masks on. No patrons at all. So when I went to check out, the check out lady thanked us. I kept my nose uncovered until we got in line simply because once I get near people I cover up out of respect even though the numbers in my community are flat. Out of respect for the front line employee I'll cover up. She chuckled at my "covid 19 sucks" mask.



I've seen the type of masks Target sells. Better than nothing, but not really impressed by them. I've got a collection of masks of all kinds from Etsy. One seller straight up cheated me out of my money. One sent me masks clearly made from ridiculously thin fabric from T-shirt sleeves (though ironically the shipping, presentation, and customer service was the best from all the sellers). One order took nearly 2 months to get here. But the dozen or so other sellers really came through for me. 

I bought 1 to 3 masks from a variety of sellers because I figured the probability of getting cheated, one way or another, would be much higher than it actually turned out to be. I mean it *is* Etsy after all. They let literally anyone start up a store on their website with zero vetting involved. They'll even let children start up a store.


----------



## StarHalo

nbp said:


> I thought we were talking about unlocking phones with masks, what are you even talking about?



The most likely scenario for someone wanting to unlock your phone without your permission is during a traffic stop/detainment, not someone wearing a mask.


----------



## bigburly912

StarHalo said:


> The most likely scenario for someone wanting to unlock your phone without your permission is during a traffic stop/detainment, not someone wearing a mask.



Police can’t search your phone without a court order. What are you on about now?


----------



## RedLED

Monocrom said:


> The tellers at my local bank can recognize me even when I'm wearing a mask, and my usual black baseball cap pulled low over my head. Then again, I can easily recognize each one of them. Even with masks, you just get used to who all the regulars are. Works both ways.
> 
> 
> 
> No worries. Your secret is safe with me. I'm sure you took precautions and made sure she has no clue what your log-in is on CPF. Right?


No, she knows my pass code. You see, if something happens to me, I told her to get on here, and find someone to help find out what all this stuff is worth. Some I have files and paperwork on but not everything. Otherwise, there would be a pile of custom flashlights at the thrift store.


----------



## StarHalo

bigburly912 said:


> Police can’t search your phone without a court order. What are you on about now?



You can be compelled to produce face ID, but not your password. If the phone will not accept face ID, then it's out of the equation.


----------



## Monocrom

PhotonWrangler said:


> The WHO has updated their guidance regarding masks and they're now saying that a single layer fabric mask is not enough for protection. Masks should have at least three layers, and possibly more depending on the fabric used and how the materials are laid together. The article goes into quite a bit of detail in terms of the actual air pressure differential on both sides of the mask.



Looks like most of the seamstresses on Etsy figured out what took the WHO all this time to do so. That one layer isn't going to cut it. Takes just a bit of searching on that site, but you'll find hand-sewn washable/reusable masks on there from a variety of different sellers who got it right. Here's what's best to look for....

1- Made in USA (or whichever country you live in).
Not about Patriotism, all about making sure the masks get to you in a timely manner.

2- Nose Wire or Dart.
Ensures a snug fit on your face. Helps with creating a good seal. A Dart is simply a bit of stitching on the outside layer of the mask that takes the place of a nose wire. Not quite as good, but gets the job done.

3- Two layers of material with a filter pocket.
Pop in the filter, and that's your 3rd layer of protection that the WHO now advocates. As far as more layers go, the absolute vast majority of masks being sold on Etsy for slightly higher prices are going to be two layers with a filter pocket. Usually no filter included though. 

4- Filter material.
You can find PM2.5 filters online, and on that site itself.
These are the best commercially made ones out there for masks. Though they don't work too well in surgical style homemade masks. They're much better in Olson style masks. Some sellers are offering washable/reusable filters that you can reuse a few times. I've ordered a few and am looking into those. For disposable filters you want non-woven polypropylene fabric. Best one out there. Though there are other types of filters. Coffee filters or panty liner is not going to be effective though. Some of the poly filters are incredibly thin though. So you could double-up on those and have a mask that offers 4 layers of protection.

5- Mask material.
100% cotton is best. But a cotton and polyester blend can work too. 

I have a 100% white, cotton mask that I carry in a plastic baggie whenever I head to work. Two cotton layers, one filter pocket, with a PM2.5 filter in the pocket. Extra PM2.5 filter outside of the mask. It folds flat, has a nose wire for a good fit. I do have a very small supply of properly-made KN95 masks I bought early on. I use one as my main mask at work. And another KN95 at my other full-time Essential job. But in case anything happens to the KN95s I'm wearing, I'm good to go. 

Truth is, even an N95 is no guarantee. Just the best commercially out there that one can find. Depending on if you're willing to pay the prices. Literally just found a 20-count supply of N95 masks (certified and all that other stuff) from a legitimate medical supply online shop. So not some sleazy ghoul who horded a bunch and is selling them off. Cost from the legit source? = $160 for 20. Which ironically seems to be the going rate from medical supply sources if they have any to sell. Before the pandemic, about $1 each. Now, $8 each. Even when the pandemic finally ends, I doubt we'll see N95s for $1 ever again. 

Been buying up masks on Etsy for a review project for my viewers on my YouTube channel. Was going to cancel that project since it started to seem as though the virus_ might_ run its course and be at least down to more manageable levels by the time I collected every piece of data I needed. But then the protests started. Plenty of people in large cities where the infection rate is high already. Should-to-shoulder, with a significant number of them not wearing masks.


----------



## Monocrom

bykfixer said:


> I thought they reccomended "filtering" via face covering all along. I did not know this was something new. Perhaps it was the cdc back then?
> My wife made a slew using two layers and a hepa sandwiched between a while back. We used a BiC lighter and (lack of) sunshine getting through to determine the cloth.



I genuinely hate being the bearer of bad news.... I had considered getting some vacuum bags and making my own filters. But then the company that makes hepa filters came out and said that many of their filters use fiberglass. And they didn't bother labeling their filters as to which ones use fiberglass, and which ones don't because in fairness; they had no clue people would be cutting up and stitching the filters into masks soon after 2020 rolled around. Fiberglass is definitely not something you want to be breathing in. They can not even pinpoint which ones have fiberglass in them, and which ones don't.


----------



## Monocrom

> *StarHalo ~*
> You can be compelled to produce face ID, but not your password. If the phone will not accept face ID, then it's out of the equation.




Thankfully the battery life on my phone is so crappy, I keep it switched off until I need to actually use it, or until I get to work. Not a great solution for protecting your privacy, but it would work.



> *RedLED ~*
> Otherwise, there would be a pile of custom flashlights at the thrift store.



If most of your collection is in NYC, I wouldn't mind encountering a bunch of those at the thrift store.


----------



## nbp

StarHalo said:


> The most likely scenario for someone wanting to unlock your phone without your permission is during a traffic stop/detainment, not someone wearing a mask.



Lynx Arc was concerned that this “new” setting would allow someone with your password (solution: don’t hand out passwords) to simply put on a mask to defeat the FaceID and punch in the password to gain access to your phone. But the iPhones with FaceID ALWAYS default to the password after several failed attempts to recognize your face (such as hats and scarves and glasses etc). This new update simply forces the phone to jump to password access more quickly instead of the phone trying to scan your face multiple times to accelerate the unlocking process since so many users are wearing masks now. There is no lessening of security involved here. It’s just a quicker bounce to password if the phone sees on the first scan something is blocking your face. This has nothing to do with traffic stops and police searching your phone. That may be an interesting topic for another thread but it isn’t really on topic here. Even the FaceID while masking is only tangentially related but could at least be considered part of “Pandemic Normal”.


----------



## turbodog

Monocrom said:


> Looks like most of the seamstresses on Etsy figured out what took the WHO all this time to do so. ...
> 
> 5- Mask material.
> 100% cotton is best. But a cotton and polyester blend can work too.
> ...



Not a personal attack, but some observations.

To many, it seems clear that at home folks knew better than the CDC/WHO. To that I will point out that ANY 'official' agency MUST have some sort of justification before endorsing a certain solution. So while you and I may make our own mask with X layers, it's another thing entirely to come out with an official statement on mask construction. This is complicated by the fact they need to make a recommendation on a disease that has not existed before now.

And speaking of mask construction. Please read the article you copied. IT DOES NOT RECOMMEND AN ALL-COTTON MASK. The outer later specifically is NOT supposed to be cotton. It's supposed to be a layer that will shed droplets from others, where the droplets have less chance of adhering to or soaking into the fabric.


----------



## raggie33

I’d be a super spreader if I did not wear a mask .when I sneeze it truly is violent so dang powerful. I’d love to know what is causing it.


----------



## StarHalo

nbp said:


> Lynx Arc was concerned that this “new” setting would allow someone with your password (solution: don’t hand out passwords) to simply put on a mask to defeat the FaceID and punch in the password to gain access to your phone.



And that's not a realistic scenario since it would be very technically difficult to produce a topographically correct mask just to open a phone; the most realistic scenario for someone entering your phone against your will is when being detained, thankfully someone with knowledge of the legality and methodology of handling that situation posted about that. Anyone concerned about this being superfluous information in the summer of 2020 can at least rest comfortably knowing that the current topic is mask construction.


----------



## bigburly912

Riley vs. the state of California


----------



## nbp

StarHalo said:


> And that's not a realistic scenario since it would be very technically difficult to produce a topographically correct mask just to open a phone; the most realistic scenario for someone entering your phone against your will is when being detained, thankfully someone with knowledge of the legality and methodology of handling that situation posted about that. Anyone concerned about this being superfluous information in the summer of 2020 can at least rest comfortably knowing that the current topic is mask construction.



You are still not understanding. The point of his comment was never that the mask would replicate your face and unlock the phone with FaceID!! This isn’t Mission Impossible. The point was that with a mask the phone unlocks via passcode so your face isn’t needed. Thus anyone with your passcode (probably a friend or family member, not a cop) can get into the phone by covering their facing and forcing it ask for the passcode - they don’t need your face. But this is not a new function, so it isn’t a new security issue. The phone with FaceID does the same thing it always did when when your face is covered, just faster.


----------



## Monocrom

turbodog said:


> Not a personal attack, but some observations.
> 
> To many, it seems clear that at home folks knew better than the CDC/WHO. To that I will point out that ANY 'official' agency MUST have some sort of justification before endorsing a certain solution. So while you and I may make our own mask with X layers, it's another thing entirely to come out with an official statement on mask construction. This is complicated by the fact they need to make a recommendation on a disease that has not existed before now.
> 
> And speaking of mask construction. Please read the article you copied. IT DOES NOT RECOMMEND AN ALL-COTTON MASK. The outer later specifically is NOT supposed to be cotton. It's supposed to be a layer that will shed droplets from others, where the droplets have less chance of adhering to or soaking into the fabric.




Normally, I would agree with you; absolutely! With regards to an official agency, made up of experts, coming up with fully justifiable reasons as to why they are now endorsing a certain new policy. Honestly, the CDC isn't the problem. Not at all. Their original official stance on using cotton bandanas to make improvised masks was very much needed, early on when people legitimately could not get their hands on N95s; and had no idea what to do. Any sort of facial barrier used by citizens is going to slow the spread of the virus, compared to no such barrier at all. So, given the circumstances, the CDC did the right thing adopting that official stance back then and releasing their instructional video on YouTube.

The problem is the WHO. They have failed horrendously to do pretty much almost anything to combat the virus. They even refused, back when the virus first (and clearly) turned into a planetary pandemic, to even classify it as a Pandemic. The incompetence of the WHO is bad enough. But soon verifiable stories of the WHO's corruption surfaced. To such an extent that the President cut off funding to the WHO. Roughly 15% of the funding that the organization gets every year from nations around the world. 

I realize I'm getting dangerously close to politics, so will simply say that I don't entirely trust the WHO. And, look very closely with a suspicious eye towards anything they do. Credit where its due, the WHO's recommendation for an effective hand-sanitizer formula was spot-on. 

The vast majority of handmade washable/reusable masks being sold are made from cotton as the outer layer. Nurses and other healthcare professionals can easily breath through commercially made masks. For the average person, they have a hard time doing so. And sadly, some have no desire to keep doing so until they get used to it. A cotton face-mask will be the easiest for them to get used to. The Olson design mask itself was specifically created to help make it easier for average people to breath through a mask.

As far as non-cotton outer layer masks go, the closest I've been able to come to finding those for sale is an online seller who used to only make Chemo therapy head scarves for women going through treatment. Even that one is a Cotton-Poly blend for both the outer and inner layer of the mask. Though clearly from the one I bought from them, more poly than cotton. 

However, there's still cotton in it. I'm sorry but this highlights another issue with the WHO. They are simply out of touch with what is out there for mask-making. Their recommendation regarding the outer layer is what you'd find in an N95 or KN95 or FFP2 _commercial_ mask. Take the best seamstress in the world, she doesn't have access to any of the equipment needed to replicate a commercially made mask capable of filtering out 94% or 95% of particulates in the air. 

What the WHO is _basically_ recommending with a non-cotton outer layer mask, is that the average person go out and buy up commercially made masks.... While there is already a huge shortage in the world of these masks, especially for nurses, doctors, First-Responders, Paramedics, etc. Brilliant piece of advice. Cause an even bigger shortage by basically saying homemade face-masks are not good enough, go out and get the commercial variety that healthcare workers desperately need more of. This is what the WHO wastes their time on. Admittedly, there are fully polyester masks being commercially made that are not N95s. I've seen those. The quality is usually garbage, and nearly impossible to breath through. Along with usually being one layer. 

No one would argue that a homemade mask with an outer cotton layer is going to be as good as a commercially made N95 mask, with an outer layer of bonded polypropylene. That's just a given. But in a world with a horrific shortage of commercially made masks, people have to do the best they can with the materials they have. Bonded polypropylene is not common as dirt to the masses. 100% cotton, is. You do the absolute best you can with what you have. That's just how it is. You make it as effective as you can. It's genuinely unfortunate that the WHO doesn't seem to understand that. 

Perfect example, there's a video on YouTube of an inventor who showed step-by-step everything needed to make a homemade mask that would pass certification to be rated as an N99. Filters out 99% of all particulates in the air. He pulled out a bunch of equipment, materials, supplies.... everything needed to make it happen! And he did. Then you scroll down into the comments section. One of the first comments was from a woman who replied that literally the only thing she had at home was a pair of long scissors. (One of the needed pieces of gear to put the mask together.) He pulled it off, made the mask. However, he was completely out of touch with what his viewers had to work with. Just out of touch with reality.


----------



## Monocrom

raggie33 said:


> I’d be a super spreader if I did not wear a mask .when I sneeze it truly is violent so dang powerful. I’d love to know what is causing it.



Honestly, you're either in a very dusty enviornment or you have a sensitive nose. I've got one of those, so I'm very conscious whenever I go out or am at work to make sure no one is around if I need to sneeze. Nowadays, one little sneeze and people around you get the wrong idea as they quickly back away.


----------



## RedLED

Monocrom said:


> Thankfully the battery life on my phone is so crappy, I keep it switched off until I need to actually use it, or until I get to work. Not a great solution for protecting your privacy, but it would work.
> 
> 
> 
> If most of your collection is in NYC, I wouldn't mind encountering a bunch of those at the thrift store.


Mono, I keep them in Palm Springs.


----------



## Monocrom

RedLED said:


> Mono, I keep them in Palm Springs.



Just my luck.


----------



## wacbzz

This is my COVID-19...Went to work today. Busy as Black Friday. Came home for some beers...


----------



## turbodog

Monocrom said:


> Normally...



When I look up the 'official' role of the WHO I find (and expect) it to be more of a leadship/organizational type thing. Under them we have CDC, State Health Dept, Local health depts, etc. I find it unrealistic for them to be tasked to tell us how to tie our shoes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization

https://www.who.int/about/role/en/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3981564/


----------



## Monocrom

turbodog said:


> When I look up the 'official' role of the WHO I find (and expect) it to be more of a leadship/organizational type thing. Under them we have CDC, State Health Dept, Local health depts, etc. I find it unrealistic for them to be tasked to tell us how to tie our shoes.



Sorry but there's a reason why Wikipedia is still to this day not accepted as a credible reference source in literally any college or university you can name, at least in America. Also, you'd like to discuss leadership as being the WHO's key role? Well, that's one thing we agree on. That is absolutely their key role. You and I are in full agreement there. And once again, looking at what the WHO has done in a leadership role during these trying times, miserable failure and horrendous incompetence is what the WHO has displayed. 

Looks as though you decided not to tackle the various key points I brought up in my other post. Fair enough. They would be difficult to dispute. As far as Polypropylene homemade and reusable masks go (the material used in the outer layer of N95 and similar disposable commercial masks) there's one shop on all of Etsy that makes a mask with that as the outer layer. Considering I've literally spent countless hours the last couple of months looking through shops of mask sellers on Etsy, safe to say he's the only seller on a site filled with thousands upon thousands of sellers, offering such a mask. And even that one is only two layers. 

PM me if you'd like to know the shop's name. Those selling polyester masks as the outer layer? Good luck finding one that is again more than just 2 layers thick and not garbage quality. Again, the WHO showing how completely out of touch it is. You want multiple, protective layers, more than two? At least 3 or 4 layers from a giant selection of sellers? The outer material will have to be cotton or a cotton/poly blend. If you're determined that it be 3 layers and the outside one must NOT be cotton, good news.... I found 3 actually worth checking out. To clarify, I mean 3 sellers. I'm literally not even joking.

Polypropylene as outer layer ~ One seller (and only two layers thick).

Polyester as outer layer ~ Three (that offer 3 layers of protection and actual quality).

Cotton as outer layer ~ So many that let's pretend I listed them all and hit the HUGE character limit on CPF for one post before getting done. 

Also, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I don't think for a second you meant to compare something as serious as a killer planetary pandemic to something as mundane as teaching someone how to tie their shoelaces. I honestly don't expect a group named The World Heath Organization to bother with the latter. I sure as heck expect them to step up and deal with the former before the death toll got anywhere near 397,000 cases (rough estimate as exact numbers obviously aren't out yet). I think we can both agree on that.


----------



## Greta

Last week Honey and I were gifted with a couple of homemade masks by a very sweet lady we know at our cigar bar. They were hand crocheted with regular acrylic yarn. Very pretty and "fashionable". She was very proud of her work and very proudly told us she had made many for her friends and family, and "you can just put a tissue on the inside". :sigh: - I thanked her appropriately and put them in my purse. When I got home, I tossed them in the trash. Bless her heart. :shakehead There are so many things wrong with the masks she made but I didn't have the heart to tell her. I feel like I should have... as she is most definitely in the high-risk demographic and feels she is safe with her own handmade-with-lots-of-love masks. But then... who am I to say? :shrug: She and her husband have been traveling back and forth between CA and AZ since the pandemic started and both have managed to stay healthy. 

As I've said before, I have not worn a mask once... don't even own one. I've read the "literature" on mask v. no mask and made my own choices. I guess I just feel bad for those who are trying to do what they feel is right and they are failing so badly and don't even know it. All I can say is,... Bless their hearts... :sigh:


----------



## Lynx_Arc

I've noticed that late May about 2/3 of the people here were wearing masks, now we have about 1/4 of the people wearing them here but social distancing is about 3/4 to about 1/2 now. I social distance by habit just to make others comfortable but forget the mask I've worn masks at work not because of contagions but because of dust and stuff and it makes it hard for me to breathe and if I were to wear one all day I would probably be tired in an hour or two. I work in the heat also and masks make things even worse you can more easily overheat breathing through one as this winter it was freezing at work and everyone was wearing masks to keep warm it made a huge difference.
When it is mid 90s and humid a mask can probably increase your chance of a heat stroke IMO.


----------



## Greta

Lynx_Arc said:


> ....
> When it is mid 90s and humid a mask can probably increase your chance of a heat stroke IMO.



Try 110+ with single digit humidity. Just stick your head in an oven... save time. :ironic:


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Greta said:


> Try 110+ with single digit humidity. Just stick your head in an oven... save time. :ironic:


Either way it is like trying to breathe through a hair dryer with a mask on.


----------



## bykfixer

So this whole "new" mask thing, isn't it proection against outgoing virus? Not incoming? I thought N95's were for incoming virus. Is is now being spread in dry form and not just in droplets? Just curious. 

I remember Dr Byrx saying a scarf would dispell enough droplets to thwart those droplets from travelling in a case of sneezing or coughing. Certainly when speaking. 

I have noticed since this whole thing began that when I speak my words send out droplets that at times look like they have tracers on them. It's crazy but if you look for them when you talk to someone you will see them. They travel about 3-4' and quickly fall. So while walking around stores I keep a mask over my mouth. I pull it up all the way when checking out. 
Where I live more and more people have stopped wearing them. Perhaps less now than prior to our mask requirement in stores. I see employees wearing them but they typically already were in April and May. Most people still do the 6 feet apart thing though. I had to dash out to a box store to purchase a replacement thermostat for my home comfort system and only employees were wearing masks. Gladly the new thermostat fixed the issue. It was near closing time so hardly anyone was in the place. Employees were largely wearing their masks under their chin by that point. Can't say I blame them really. 

At my work the folks entering the big office are required to wear them in the public portion of the building, but once inside the company office no longer. A bunch of young engineers and the ATF occupy several offices there. ATF folks have cool masks. I mean they look like what a SWAT team would wear. Kinda like American Darth Vader style. But they even have their own elevator so it stands to reason they'd have cool masks to go with their kevlar suits.


----------



## turbodog

Greta said:


> Last week Honey and I were gifted with a couple of homemade masks by a very sweet lady we know at our cigar bar. They were hand crocheted with regular acrylic yarn. Very pretty and "fashionable". She was very proud of her work and very proudly told us she had made many for her friends and family, and "you can just put a tissue on the inside". :sigh: - I thanked her appropriately and put them in my purse. When I got home, I tossed them in the trash. Bless her heart. :shakehead There are so many things wrong with the masks she made but I didn't have the heart to tell her. I feel like I should have... as she is most definitely in the high-risk demographic and feels she is safe with her own handmade-with-lots-of-love masks. But then... who am I to say? :shrug: She and her husband have been traveling back and forth between CA and AZ since the pandemic started and both have managed to stay healthy.
> 
> As I've said before, I have not worn a mask once... don't even own one. I've read the "literature" on mask v. no mask and made my own choices. I guess I just feel bad for those who are trying to do what they feel is right and they are failing so badly and don't even know it. All I can say is,... Bless their hearts... :sigh:



That statement must mean something different in AZ than it does in MS.


----------



## turbodog

bykfixer said:


> So this whole "new" mask thing, isn't it proection against outgoing virus? Not incoming? I thought N95's were for incoming virus...



Mostly for outgoing, protection limited by construction. Helps on incoming to a degree.

There are many studies, prior to covid 19, that deal with mask contamination on the outer surface. This is especially important when you touch/adjust/remove it and then touch yourself/other surfaces/etc.

To note, there are n100/p100 masks also. 5% better than 95's.


----------



## turbodog

Lynx_Arc said:


> I've noticed that late May about 2/3 of the people here were wearing masks, now we have about 1/4 of the people wearing them here but social distancing is about 3/4 to about 1/2 now. I social distance by habit just to make others comfortable but forget the mask I've worn masks at work not because of contagions but because of dust and stuff and it makes it hard for me to breathe and if I were to wear one all day I would probably be tired in an hour or two. I work in the heat also and masks make things even worse you can more easily overheat breathing through one as this winter it was freezing at work and everyone was wearing masks to keep warm it made a huge difference.
> When it is mid 90s and humid a mask can probably increase your chance of a heat stroke IMO.



That's the catch. If ALL were wearing properly fitted non-homeade masks, then you could wear one with an exhale valve. Huge difference in comfort.

It's herd immunity but from a different method... enough people need to wear _some_ sort of 'covering'.


----------



## Greta

turbodog said:


> That statement must mean something different in AZ than it does in MS.



No,.. it means the same thing


----------



## Lynx_Arc

turbodog said:


> That's the catch. If ALL were wearing properly fitted non-homeade masks, then you could wear one with an exhale valve. Huge difference in comfort.
> 
> It's herd immunity but from a different method... enough people need to wear _some_ sort of 'covering'.



I've worn a mask with exhale valve.... still traps moisture and heat in it and if it pulls air from around the mask inward I can see it can pull stuff that falls on the mask at the edges right into your face possibly infecting you. 
I say herd immunity is a must for this virus as contagious as it is purported to be it will ping pong across the country back and forth till everyone that can be infected is and could stick around for years till it cannot find any targets.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

I just heard on the news there is only 18 people in the hospital for CV19 here now.


----------



## Monocrom

Greta said:


> Last week Honey and I were gifted with a couple of homemade masks by a very sweet lady we know at our cigar bar. They were hand crocheted with regular acrylic yarn. Very pretty and "fashionable". She was very proud of her work and very proudly told us she had made many for her friends and family, and "you can just put a tissue on the inside". :sigh: - I thanked her appropriately and put them in my purse. When I got home, I tossed them in the trash. Bless her heart. :shakehead There are so many things wrong with the masks she made but I didn't have the heart to tell her. I feel like I should have... as she is most definitely in the high-risk demographic and feels she is safe with her own handmade-with-lots-of-love masks. But then... who am I to say? :shrug: She and her husband have been traveling back and forth between CA and AZ since the pandemic started and both have managed to stay healthy.
> 
> As I've said before, I have not worn a mask once... don't even own one. I've read the "literature" on mask v. no mask and made my own choices. I guess I just feel bad for those who are trying to do what they feel is right and they are failing so badly and don't even know it. All I can say is,... Bless their hearts... :sigh:




One of the absolute scary things about this virus that terrifies me is the fact that some literally show no outward symptoms once they are infected. One YouTube channel that showcases their family lives in a wholesome manner made a video awhile back. The wife's father who worked at Home Depot decided to stay on the job. Apparently the company gave workers an option to opt-out if they felt unsafe. With their jobs apparently being held for them for several weeks if they chose not to come in. Not sure if they had the option to wear masks if they chose to keep working. The man got infected, and later passed away from it.

Considering what this virus does to _most_ people who are infected, the husband believes that it likely wasn't someone badly suffering from the virus. Someone who decided they didn't care about putting others at risk, and headed to Home Depot anyway. Most likely it was one of those no symptom or very mild symptom carriers who had no clue they were infected. I'll never forget the true case of a 16 year-old girl who had no history of a compromised immune system. One day, she got the slightest bit of a cough. Next thing her parents knew, she was gone.

That couple sounds as though they've been lucky. Most of California and Florida were the two states hit hardest when the pandemic finally reached America. 

I've been giving away masks (hand-stitched, washable, re-usable ones) to individuals in my personal life, my subscribers on my main YouTube channel. And, offered masks to other content creators I'm subscribed to. These aren't made by me. I don't even remotely have the proper seamstress skills needed to sew a mask the right way. I can sew up a hole in a sock. That's about it. Still looks a bit sloppy though. 

What I'm saying is, I over-estimated how many I'd be giving away. I have quite a few left over that are currently being held for me by a seamstress. Waiting to be given out. I think I still have your address, somewhere. The one you gave me years ago. Not sure if you've moved since then. And, to be honest, it would be a nightmare ransacking my apartment to find it. If you'd like, I can send over a couple of masks for that couple. You can tell them anything. That they're from you, a concerned fellow American, the Prince of Wales.... Just seems as though she's decided a mask is a good idea, but happens to be ignorant of what is required in a mask that would have some protective effectiveness. You can PM me your address or a PO Box if you have one of those, and I'll make sure those masks are sent out for them.

Also, no worries; you've made up your mind that you don't want to own a mask. That's your decision, and I'm not stupid enough to get on your bad side by sending you one when you've made it clear you're not interested. So, I can send out two. Just two, for them. You can give them to her and then inform her of what's needed in a protective mask. I can have one sent out that's more for men, along with a nice maybe floral print one for her. Just something more feminine and fashionable but still appropriate for a protective mask for her. If it looks good, she'll probably be more likely to wear it.

Your choice, Greta. Please let me know. Seriously, I've got enough waiting to be mailed out to equip a small army at this point.


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

To spread or not to spread? That is the question. 

- Asymptomatic Carrier 

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/08/asymptomatic-coronavirus-patients-arent-spreading-new-infections-who-says.html


----------



## turbodog

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> To spread or not to spread? That is the question.
> 
> - Asymptomatic Carrier
> 
> https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/08/asymptomatic-coronavirus-patients-arent-spreading-new-infections-who-says.html




If that's true it makes it easier to track/avoid/etc. But that also makes covid unique... AFAIK aren't like almost all respiratory infections transmittable before symptoms appear?

Sounds like some research that could be reversed/contradicted in a later study.


----------



## Greta

Monocrom - thank you very much for the offer. And I truly mean that! But I'm thinking this couple is doing ok. When we met up in the cigar bar where she proudly presented us with her gift, they were both... you guessed it!... maskless. Funny story... the "regulars" in the bar refer to this particular couple as "touchy-feely". They HAVE to touch everyone in the bar when they enter and when they leave. They really are a very sweet older couple (60's-70's?)... but even before this whole pandemic thing, they felt the need to TOUCH! And even before this whole pandemic thing, many of us have had issues with that. Anywho... they have not changed their ways. They still feel the need to TOUCH... and now without masks - even though she lovingly hand crochets masks and gives them out to friends and family. 

Don't get me wrong... I care for these people. I really do! But there is also a part of me that cannot be responsible for everyone else I run across in my life. I take care of myself and my own... unapologetically.


----------



## SCEMan

turbodog said:


> Sounds like some research that could be reversed/contradicted in a later study.



Well that didn't take long. Wonder why WHO is taking so much heat lately...
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...back-comments-asymptomatic-spread/5325282002/


----------



## bykfixer

turbodog said:


> If that's true it makes it easier to track/avoid/etc. But that also makes covid unique... AFAIK aren't like almost all respiratory infections transmitted before symptoms appear?
> 
> Sounds like some research that could be reversed/contradicted in a later study.



When I was a lad during flu season my grandmother used to speak of carriers. She was speaking of folks who spread the flu without getting sick themselves. Lots of people got infected with HIV in the 80's and 90's by people who were not sick. 
So for a virus to spread by non symptomatic people is nothing new. Right now the jury is out as to how many "carriers" as my grandmother used to say are spreading this novel virus. 

One thing is known is outside of a body it is way more durable than HIV and seemingly at least a bit more durable than previous strains of coronas.


----------



## Monocrom

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> To spread or not to spread? That is the question.
> 
> - Asymptomatic Carrier
> 
> https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/08/asymptomatic-coronavirus-patients-arent-spreading-new-infections-who-says.html




I have to be honest, if the WHO had been doing at least a good job up until this point; I'd be more inclined to believe that report. There have been more than a few cases of no-symptom or very-mild-symptom infected carriers reported on the local news here in New York City. Granted, I'm in the most infected concentrated area in all of America. So we might have a much higher concentration of such infected carriers than other places. 

Thing is, even if it does turn out that such carriers are rare in and of themselves; it's likely they are responsible far more than other infected carriers in spreading the virus. Someone whose infected and displays all of the signs of infection, isn't likely to go out and spread it to more people in public. Assuming if they're even capable of getting out of bed at home. They're going to at least suspect they're infected and since most people aren't scum, won't risk running minor errands outside. Possibly infecting more people. 

Get someone who thinks they're not infected, they're going to go outside. They'll likely visit friends or family who similarly show no symptoms. They're going to be the ones checking in on their elderly relatives or neighbors. Again, having no clue that they're carriers. Twenty infected individuals confined to bed, barely able to move; are not a danger to the public. One carrier who shows zero symptoms, has no clue he's infected, goes out into public.... That's the danger. That's the one who spreads the virus.


----------



## Monocrom

Greta said:


> Monocrom - thank you very much for the offer. And I truly mean that! But I'm thinking this couple is doing ok. When we met up in the cigar bar where she proudly presented us with her gift, they were both... you guessed it!... maskless. Funny story... the "regulars" in the bar refer to this particular couple as "touchy-feely". They HAVE to touch everyone in the bar when they enter and when they leave. They really are a very sweet older couple (60's-70's?)... but even before this whole pandemic thing, they felt the need to TOUCH! And even before this whole pandemic thing, many of us have had issues with that. Anywho... they have not changed their ways. They still feel the need to TOUCH... and now without masks - even though she lovingly hand crochets masks and gives them out to friends and family.
> 
> Don't get me wrong... I care for these people. I really do! But there is also a part of me that cannot be responsible for everyone else I run across in my life. I take care of myself and my own... unapologetically.




I understand what you're saying. People should take care of themselves, and unless they're family, we're not responsible for protecting other adults fully capable of helping themselves. My mask giveaway was mainly for people in my personal life, and then just bled into the content creators in the ASMR community on YouTube (won't go into details but if you knew the community like I do; you'd understand why), and my subscribers. The first group, not everyone has internet access among them. To be honest, if it wasn't for PayPal and being able to order online, I'd have a tiny fraction of the various supplies I'd need to weather the pandemic. Early on, had acquaintances and neighbors whom I'd encounter; and they'd ask if I needed anything (especially masks). I guess I'm just trying to pay it forward. 

Had planned to donate masks to local hospitals. But quickly found out they weren't interested unless the masks were commercial N95s or surgical masks. Those are the only ones they'll take. Maybe it's different in other cities. Those drives that hospitals have for skilled people to make hand-sewn, cloth surgical masks to donate to them.... Found out the nurses don't wear those. They keep them in boxes and give them out (one each) to every patient who shows up for an appointment without a mask. Again, maybe that's different in other cities. Supermarkets and grocery stores who could use quality hand-sewn masks that are reusable, everyone has those already. To me it just seems that this pandemic is not even remotely close to being over. 

I'm considering having the masks that weren't delivered to me, be donated to charity. They can hand those out to others.


----------



## Monocrom

bykfixer said:


> When I was a lad during flu season my grandmother used to speak of carriers. She was speaking of folks who spread the flu without getting sick themselves. Lots of people got infected with HIV in the 80's and 90's by people who were not sick.



HIV has been around long enough that doctors recognize there is a window of infection. Meaning, a person gets infected, and it can take a few days for the infection to actually show up on tests. So, an infected carrier _can_ actually test negative for HIV; but in reality is infected. Just a horrifying thought. Especially if someone tests negative, and then donates blood to help save lives.


----------



## turbodog

Monocrom said:


> HIV ... So, an infected carrier _can_ actually test negative for HIV; but in reality is infected. Just a horrifying thought. Especially if someone tests negative, and then donates blood to help save lives.



Coming from someone w/ experience in blood donation industry, that's why we have donor question forms and an all volunteer donor bank.

From: http://www.aidsmap.com/about-hiv/false-negative-results-hiv-tests

For example, take a test with 99.5% sensitivity and 99.5% specificity. If this test is used in a setting where 0.2% of people have HIV (for example, among the general population in the UK), the probability of a negative result being correct is 99.998%.

If the same test is used in a setting with a much higher HIV prevalence of 25% (for example, in the most heavily affected regions of southern Africa), the probability of a negative result being correct is marginally lower, at 99.832%.


----------



## Monocrom

It's good to see that precautions are being taken to prevent such a nightmare from happening to those who desperately need transfusions.


----------



## Poppy

SCEMan said:


> Well that didn't take long. Wonder why WHO is taking so much heat lately...
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...back-comments-asymptomatic-spread/5325282002/


Yeah,
Just adds credence to why we question and scrutinize so much of what we are told?


----------



## Hooked on Fenix

Looks like we might be getting a second peak of corona virus in the U.S. now. There were 1,093 deaths in the U.S. today, up from 586 yesterday. Some blame those out on Memorial Day. I think it's because of the millions of angry people in the streets this last week not social distancing, and ignoring orders of those trying to keep them safe. Stay safe out there. We have more than the virus to worry about. Watch out for looters and building fires. Hope we can return to normal soon. It's starting to look like the zombie apocalypse out there.


----------



## Monocrom

Hooked on Fenix said:


> Looks like we might be getting a second peak of corona virus in the U.S. now. There were 1,093 deaths in the U.S. today, up from 586 yesterday. Some blame those out on Memorial Day. I think it's because of the millions of angry people in the streets this last week not social distancing, and ignoring orders of those trying to keep them safe. Stay safe out there. We have more than the virus to worry about. Watch out for looters and building fires. Hope we can return to normal soon. It's starting to look like the zombie apocalypse out there.




I'd honestly trade the zombie Apocalypse over what's happening right now. Face-mask plus face-shield, combined with a baseball bat, spear, or sword. Ironically I ordered an actual sword (not some wall-hanger) a couple of months before I even heard about the Coronavirus. Japanese style, two-handed, 24-inch very manageable blade. Would love to put it to use on the Undead. Thing is.... a zombie is big, slow, and noticeable. Much easier to deal with than a microscopic horror you can't see. Easier to track too. Let me deal with something I can literally fight back against. Just saying....

But okay, not trying to go off topic into the realm of the supernatural. As far as the protests go, will only say that the pandemic is now likely to hang around far longer than _perhaps _it would have; if all the protests had stayed confined to Minneapolis MN. Not one NYPD officer was involved, protests in NY. Not one London constable was involved, protests in London. I don't get that.


----------



## turbodog

Hooked on Fenix said:


> Looks like we might be getting a second peak of corona virus in the U.S. now. There were 1,093 deaths in the U.S. today, up from 586 yesterday. Some blame those out on Memorial Day. I think it's because of the millions of angry people in the streets this last week not social distancing, and ignoring orders of those trying to keep them safe. Stay safe out there. We have more than the virus to worry about. Watch out for looters and building fires. Hope we can return to normal soon. It's starting to look like the zombie apocalypse out there.



Anecdotally, I see mask usage dropping 50% or more where I'm at.


----------



## Hooked on Fenix

I heard someone on the news say that the streets of New York looked like a scene from Gotham. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry when they were showing a peaceful protest in front of a building that they didn't know how it caught on fire. Interesting times we are living in. If a news anchor or a politician says a place is safe, run. Things are only going to get worse as more people burn through their savings, then their food supplies, then become homeless and broke. Too many lost jobs and businesses for a quick recovery. Think about people's desperation close to that of the Great Depression, but with fewer people with basic needed skills and a lot less people who know how to grow their own food and hunt. Some without those skills or the means to take care of themselves will consider taking it from others. In a survival or panic situation, the first thing people lose is a sense of humor, next is their common sense, then their ability to care about others (they become selfish/self-centered), then they lose their sanity. If you're wondering where we're at, turn on the t.v., listen to a politician, and ask yourself if what they said seems sane to you.

I truly hope things turn around quickly and common sense and rationality return, but I'm not holding my breath. Have to prepare for the worst, hope for the best, put family first in times of crisis, and pray.


----------



## bykfixer

The death rate lingers weeks behind the case rates. In most cases it's 2-4 weeks after the case was discovered. So to blame a spike of deaths on Memorial Day is premature. Those numbers will show up in mid to late June. It'll probably be July 4 when the riots and protest numbers show up on the death clock. 

I do see a lot of people relaxing now as if the thing is gone. It's not, nor is it going to be any time soon. But now that things are opening back up we should enjoy the chance to return to a bit closer to normal while excersizing continued prudence. 
Wash you hands, stay 6' apart, don't touch you face. It is still that simple. If you prefer to wear a face covering, go for it. Afterall you can right now. 

I joked one day about being booted out of a store for wearing a mask while buying Valentine's candy for Mrs Fixer, then later for not wearing one while shopping for a Mothers Day gift. I look forward to the day I get booted out for wearing a mask again.


----------



## Poppy

Monocrom said:


> I'd honestly trade the zombie Apocalypse over what's happening right now. Face-mask plus face-shield, combined with a baseball bat, spear, or sword. Ironically I ordered an actual sword (not some wall-hanger) a couple of months before I even heard about the Coronavirus. Japanese style, two-handed, 24-inch very manageable blade. Would love to put it to use on the Undead. Thing is.... a zombie is big, slow, and noticeable. Much easier to deal with than a microscopic horror you can't see. Easier to track too. Let me deal with something I can literally fight back against. Just saying....
> 
> But okay, not trying to go off topic into the realm of the supernatural. As far as the protests go, will only say that the pandemic is now likely to hang around far longer than _perhaps _it would have; if all the protests had stayed confined to Minneapolis MN. Not one NYPD officer was involved, protests in NY. Not one London constable was involved, protests in London. I don't get that.


In _The Walking Dead_, everyone was/is infected, yet not everyone died from it. Perhaps it will be the same with covid-19. The virus will die/become no longer viable, once everyone is infected, or there is a vaccine, and everyone (who has not yet created antibodies) is inoculated. One can argue that herds of people congregating together, will quicken the pace of everyone getting infected, and that is a good thing. Personally, I am not taking that position, but at this point won't argue forcefully against it.

Regarding protests in areas outside of Minneapolis, MN. I don't get the riots, and looting. IMO that defeats the purpose of "The Cause". Living in the NYC Metropolitan area, I follow NY Governor's daily briefing, and am happy to report, that he has stressed the fact, that the looting and rioting was NOT done by the protesters. He has gone to great lengths, to separate the two groups: looters/criminals, and peaceful protesters. I am glad to see that the politicians are making a distinction that will, hopefully teach the children, and youth of today, the lessons that weren't taught to me during the 60's and 70's era riots.

I like to say that I am not prejudiced, but I am. Its been ingrained in me. While a youth, during the riots, it was continually pointed out that the blacks were destroying their own neighborhood. I wasn't taught that there were essentially good and criminal blacks, but rather, how stupid, and violent they are. 

Considering, that I was raised in a blue collar, white, (Irish, Italian, Polish, German) neighborhood, I don't recall having a black friend, or even knowing a black person. I don't know if there was a black family in our town. Therefore never being exposed to a decent black person, and only hearing of the negative connotations placed on them, I have become inherently prejudiced against them, or at least distrustful. 

I can be easily disarmed by a warm smile though. 

I remember a time when a really large, tall and muscular, black man came to my office unannounced. I was startled, and it must have shown on my face, because he just gave me a warm smile, and we were good. I imagine, that he learned to accept the fact that being black and huge, that it is best to smile, to reduce tensions from the outset. 

I have a friend, performer, a large muscular black man, who at the time was with a professional traveling troop, and was scheduled to perform at "The Papermill Playhouse" in NJ. He needed to get a haircut and a shave. He went to a local barber, and took a seat and waited his turn. Each time another "white man" came in, he got pushed further back in line, until there was no one else left, except him and the barber. 

I think it was the early 80's that my in-laws went to Delaware, to check out the area, because my father-in-law's job was expanding to there, and wanted him to consider moving. He was stunned to see that as they walked along the sidewalk, that black people walking in the other direction, would step out into the street, to give them wide birth, to allow them to pass. 

In 1979, I took a tour of Macon, Georgia, with a friend, and he pointed out that there were still bath-rooms labeled, Men, Women, and Blacks.

I spent an hour with an elderly Polish immigrant a couple of years, ago. He told me that he didn't experience prejudice until he came here to America. He got a job, down South, as a welder. He worked the morning and was fired at lunch time, because he bought a soda pop for a black man, out of the white man's pop machine. 

All this to say, that it must get pretty tiring/trying, to so often, just because of the color of your skin, have to prove that you are a good guy, before people will relax around you.

So do I "get" the protesting in areas around the world? Yes I do.


----------



## Empath

Take ALL posts regarding the presently occurring protests, riots, marches and such to The Underground.


----------



## raggie33

Anyone having issues buying razor blades? Me I have around 440 blades. I get them for like 9 bucks per hundred blades. There the old ones they used it the 50s


----------



## turbodog

Empath said:


> Take ALL posts regarding the presently occurring protests, riots, marches and such to The Underground.



I just logged in down there for the first time in a long time. Looks like a ghost town. Think I tripped on a tumbleweed...


----------



## Monocrom

turbodog said:


> Anecdotally, I see mask usage dropping 50% or more where I'm at.



Outside, here in NYC, I'd say mask wearing is higher than I've ever seen it before. Everyone around has one, and _most_ are wearing them properly. Sadly, some elderly neighbors scared to death of going outside. One stepped out for 20 minutes yesterday and just sat there on a short retaining wall, wearing a mask, trying to enjoy the bright Summer's day. Then went back inside.


----------



## Monocrom

Hooked on Fenix said:


> I heard someone on the news say that the streets of New York looked like a scene from Gotham. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry when they were showing a peaceful protest in front of a building that they didn't know how it caught on fire. Interesting times we are living in. If a news anchor or a politician says a place is safe, run. Things are only going to get worse as more people burn through their savings, then their food supplies, then become homeless and broke. Too many lost jobs and businesses for a quick recovery. Think about people's desperation close to that of the Great Depression, but with fewer people with basic needed skills and a lot less people who know how to grow their own food and hunt. Some without those skills or the means to take care of themselves will consider taking it from others. In a survival or panic situation, the first thing people lose is a sense of humor, next is their common sense, then their ability to care about others (they become selfish/self-centered), then they lose their sanity. If you're wondering where we're at, turn on the t.v., listen to a politician, and ask yourself if what they said seems sane to you.
> 
> I truly hope things turn around quickly and common sense and rationality return, but I'm not holding my breath. Have to prepare for the worst, hope for the best, put family first in times of crisis, and pray.




I will say that people in my neighborhood have maintained their civility, for the most part. There have been a few knuckleheads who have tried pulling the same selfish BS that they do when things are normal. Being 6' 2" 315 pounds and looking like the Psycho from the film "Full Metal Jacket," comes in handy when encountering such individuals. 

The local supermarket is well-stocked. Lines aren't an issue, if you go in the morning. Sometimes certain things are not on the shelves. But ironically the only things you can't get are liquid anti-bacterial soap (though you will find the solid bars easily enough), and ironically; yeast. Everything else, sometimes they have it, sometimes not. I think that's one thing helping with the current situation in NY. Other than those two items, you can still usually get what you need.

Common sense? That's been dead in NYC for decades upon decades. Doubt that's coming back. No, not being sarcastic. Have lived here since 1979. It's long dead and buried. 

Good thing is, I doubt we'll be seeing rioting in the streets here anytime soon. (With the pandemic as the cause for such.) Some are struggling for money. But our "genius" governor has re-opened much of the state. Mainly only the western and eastern borders (lengthwise) that still have big restrictions as far as businesses being allowed to re-open.


----------



## SCEMan

Monocrom said:


> Being 6' 2" 315 pounds and looking like the Psycho from the film "Full Metal Jacket," comes in handy when encountering such individuals.



That would be a nice appearance to have in many circumstances :laughing:


----------



## Monocrom

SCEMan said:


> That would be a nice appearance to have in many circumstances :laughing:



My looks have been intimidating folks, without even trying, since I was a teenager. It was fun back then, at first. After awhile, gets annoying. But not going to lie, it has come in handy in certain circumstances. Thankfully, I do have self-defense training under my belt in case someone wants to take a situation too far.


----------



## raggie33

Monocrom said:


> My looks have been intimidating folks, without even trying, since I was a teenager. It was fun back then, at first. After awhile, gets annoying. But not going to lie, it has come in handy in certain circumstances. Thankfully, I do have self-defense training under my belt in case someone wants to take a situation too far.


id 
love to be that big you got like 160 pounds on me and damn near a foot in height no one is short as me it sucks to be so short lol


----------



## Monocrom

raggie33 said:


> id
> love to be that big you got like 160 pounds on me and damn near a foot in height no one is short as me it sucks to be so short lol



Nearest thing that resembles a gym in my area is a Planet Fitness.
Obviously closed for months due to covid-19. 
Thankfully I can still work out at home.
Got plenty of weights that don't take up too much space. 
Apartment complex stairs help too.
No one takes the stairs. Absolutely no one. 
Even when going down from the 2nd floor to the lobby.


----------



## Hooked on Fenix

While our nation is trying to heal, I hope we can learn how to treat each other with respect. We need to use our words, not weapons, and build bridges instead of burning them. Some things in this world are just wrong. There is no justification for it no matter who you are. But we should never attribute the sins of one to everyone in that group. That is discrimination or racism. You cannot fight racism while discriminating against an entire group of people. It's counterproductive. 

I hope that was vague enough and to the point.


----------



## raggie33

Monocrom said:


> Nearest thing that resembles a gym in my area is a Planet Fitness.
> Obviously closed for months due to covid-19.
> Thankfully I can still work out at home.
> Got plenty of weights that don't take up too much space.
> Apartment complex stairs help too.
> No one takes the stairs. Absolutely no one.
> Even when going down from the 2nd floor to the lobby.


i hated steps since i was doing construction in atl we was doing the hvac install if i recall it was on the roof and like 30 stories up id get to inpatinet waiting for the elavater so id walk up. im hoping im recalling the details of all this but it was at least 2 decades ago. but i still hate staries


----------



## raggie33

ps i think the building is called one altantic center. its scary how bad my memory is lately.


----------



## Monocrom

raggie33 said:


> i hated steps since i was doing construction in atl we was doing the hvac install if i recall it was on the roof and like 30 stories up id get to inpatinet waiting for the elavater so id walk up. im hoping im recalling the details of all this but it was at least 2 decades ago. but i still hate staries




Would rather do my cardio on an exercise bike. Planet Fitness is good for that. They have some excellent exercise bikes at the one I'll hopefully be able to go back to, soon. The stairs are a decent-at-best substitute. Sometimes you have to make do with what you've got.

My memory is weird. Either I have a hard time recalling events at all. Or I can recall them down to the details, perfectly. We get a bit older, memory starts getting a bit fuzzy. Sadly, that's normal.


----------



## bykfixer

Mrs Fixer works with a lady who got the corona virus and is now in a 14 day quarentine. The lady did all the right steps to avoid getting it from public places but seems to have gotten it from her husband who showed symptoms the day before she did. Mrs Fixer wasn't around the lady thank goodness as they work in separate parts of a building.


----------



## turbodog

turbodog said:


> Coming from someone w/ experience in blood donation industry, that's why we have donor question forms and an all volunteer donor bank.
> 
> From: http://www.aidsmap.com/about-hiv/false-negative-results-hiv-tests
> 
> For example, take a test with 99.5% sensitivity and 99.5% specificity. If this test is used in a setting where 0.2% of people have HIV (for example, among the general population in the UK), the probability of a negative result being correct is 99.998%.
> 
> If the same test is used in a setting with a much higher HIV prevalence of 25% (for example, in the most heavily affected regions of southern Africa), the probability of a negative result being correct is marginally lower, at 99.832%.



I looked into this in more detail (asked the expert). Donated blood is also subjected to tests that can detect the presence of virus(es) in the blood. This is an important note because this is BEFORE the antibodies are created.

So be confident that there is a clean blood supply if you need it. But please donate if you are able.

Most don't know it, but blood does not 'keep' forever. Generally speaking, it expires and is thrown out.


----------



## scout24

Whole blood's good for 42 days iirc? So a constant need...


----------



## StarHalo

So much of this centers on where you live and how aware your area is, as illustrated in this MoJo article I Spent 3 Months Locked Down in DC. Then I Went to a Mall in Utah.


----------



## turbodog

scout24 said:


> Whole blood's good for 42 days iirc? So a constant need...



I'd have to come back with specifics, but blood can be carved up into components. You can get plasma, packed red cells, and some other things. Even when 'thrown out' I _think_ it's used for some other purposes... want to say growth media, but don't quote me on that. (EDIT: sheep blood usually used for growth plates)

It's technically possible to freeze blood so it will keep for a long time. However, this raises the cost enormously and damages the cells. In short, you do NOT want frozen/thawn blood if at all possible. It also takes longer to get the blood ready to use.

It's possible to give 2 units. They take most of what they need and put the leftover back into you.

I did my part and made 2 nice little O neg donors so I'm all good!


----------



## Kestrel

Am permanently DQ'd from donating blood due to spending ~a month in Great Britain during the early 90's.
Have of course had no mad cow exposure; furthermore, it was explained to me that there has not been a single case of blood transmitted CJD, *ever*.

However, Important People have decided that the infinitesimal risk outweighs any possible societal benefit.

I sometimes wonder how Great Britain would do if they used similar criteria for their donors, lol. :-/


----------



## raggie33

Kestrel said:


> Am permanently DQ'd from donating blood due to spending ~a month in Great Britain during the early 90's.
> Have of course had no mad cow exposure; furthermore, it was explained to me that there has not been a single case of blood transmitted CJD, *ever*.
> 
> However, Important People have decided that the infinitesimal risk outweighs any possible societal benefit.
> 
> I sometimes wonder how Great Britain would do if they used similar criteria for their donors, lol. :-/


that stinks i love dairy queen thry have the best fastfood burgers


----------



## Monocrom

turbodog said:


> I looked into this in more detail (asked the expert). Donated blood is also subjected to tests that can detect the presence of virus(es) in the blood. This is an important note because this is BEFORE the antibodies are created.
> 
> So be confident that there is a clean blood supply if you need it. But please donate if you are able.
> 
> Most don't know it, but blood does not 'keep' forever. Generally speaking, it expires and is thrown out.




Good to hear that there's more testing done. Yes, unfortunately a lot of folks don't realize blood has a shelf-life. After a major disaster or terrorist attack, a lot of folks donate all at once. Which sounds great. Only issue is, everyone coming forward at one time means a large amount of that donated blood will likely end up being tossed away when it expires.


----------



## Poppy

Kestrel said:


> Am permanently DQ'd from donating blood due to spending ~a month in Great Britain during the early 90's.
> Have of course had no mad cow exposure; furthermore, it was explained to me that there has not been a single case of blood transmitted CJD, *ever*.
> 
> However, Important People have decided that the infinitesimal risk outweighs any possible societal benefit.
> 
> I sometimes wonder how Great Britain would do if they used similar criteria for their donors, lol. :-/



The last time I donated blood was about 7 years ago.
I was misdiagnosed with Babesiosis.
I am now also DQ'd from ever donating again.

Last year I was retested again with a more specific or more reliable test, and it came out negative.

My doc said he had three other patients who were also diagnosed with babesiosis from the same lab who also attempted to donate blood, during the same blood drive that i participated in.

So... lab error.

Oh well, I am a member of the gallon club, meaning that I have donated over a gallon during my life.


----------



## Monocrom

StarHalo said:


> So much of this centers on where you live and how aware your area is, as illustrated in this MoJo article I Spent 3 Months Locked Down in DC. Then I Went to a Mall in Utah.



An interesting article. Definitely worth reading. Last just over 3 months or so, my shopping and going out has consisted of the following: Work (2 Essential full-time jobs where thankfully I barely interact with anyone at both of them), Supermarket, Local pharmacy, Bank, Home Depot. With the exception of one of my jobs and Home Depot, everything is literally a block down, on either side of the street. And H.D. and my nightshift job are literally next door to each other. The extent of my outdoor travels. 

I just remind myself that it's a _temporary _new normal.


----------



## Johnnyh

The “Mother Jones” article...It should be titled “DC Elitists Finds Utahns Deplorable”. Painting these mall shoppers as ignorant louts and Mormon families as slobbering covid-19 infectors is shameful and the hypocrisy on display by left-leaning media such as Mother Jones is glaring. These Utahns (and earlier, the Lake of The Ozarks party-goers) are pilloried as unsophisticated Neanderthals yet not a word is uttered when it comes to mass gatherings in the name of social justice. If lockdowns, social distancing, mask-wearing etc. are to be encouraged by our leaders, or the “toothless” enforcement the author found in Utah is given more bite then it had better damn we’ll be encouraged and enforced for ALL the people. In the wake of what we’ve seen in Minneapolis, NYC and Seattle, these “guidelines” are at best, laughable. At worst, it is greatest and most destructive scam ever perpetrated on the American people.


----------



## StagMoose

[ insert Citizen Kane clapping meme]


----------



## turbodog

Local blood collection places are giving free covid antibody testing w/ a donation. There are LONG lines.


----------



## StarHalo

Johnnyh said:


> shameful and the hypocrisy on display by left-leaning media mass gatherings in the name of social justice.



The politicization and discussion of protests are better suited to the Underground, let's keep this thread aboveboard for all.


----------



## Johnnyh

StarHalo said:


> The politicization and discussion of protests are better suited to the Underground, let's keep this thread aboveboard for all.



It has nothing to do with the protests or its basis for existence. I don’t care about protest, they have that right and they’re welcome to it. Thats not the point. The point is that mall shoppers, Mormons at the airport and Lake of The Ozarks denizens, have rights as well. We all do. Articles shaming them for exercising their right to assemble is, in these times, patently absurd. 

My wife’s knitting club, her painting class, her church...banned, barred and prohibited. She is heartbroken and bewildered. This is not some far away ethereal probability. It’s happening to me and my loved ones. It’s happening everywhere across this country. 
Whether or not the threat of Covid-19 is as real as they would have us believe is certainly up for debate...but the losses, the suffering, the despair that these measures have brought are very, very real. Protest to your hearts content, but please stop telling us we can’t go to church, the mall, the knitting club or the painting class.


----------



## StarHalo

Well if the lockdown did anything for Utah, you'd see their numbers at least remain the same for some period of time, and then on removing that lockdown there would be a notable effect. Survey says:


----------



## Johnnyh

StarHalo said:


> Well if the lockdown did anything for Utah, you'd see their numbers at least remain the same for some period of time, and then on removing that lockdown there would be a notable effect. Survey says:



Ok, back on the soapbox....another notable effect might be more happiness. Returning to the dignity of honest work, returning to Church, Synagogue or Mosque. Returning to life. Less suicide, less drug addiction and/ or alcohol abuse (and the huge death toll they take). More citizens unafraid to seek preventive medicine. Children getting healthy food, stimulation and social interaction in school...The death toll due to covid-19 here in the USA and around the world is not just about those infected, the toll taken by shutting off the world may yet prove to be much higher.


----------



## Monocrom

> *Johnnyh ~*
> 
> Whether or not the threat of Covid-19 is as real as they would have us believe is certainly up for debate...



Come on down to NYC. Go to literally *any* funeral home, in any of the 5 boroughs. Check the overflow of corpses in any of the funeral homes. And realize it used to be _FAR_ worse just a couple of short weeks ago. Approximately 110,000 dead in America from the virus. We had a single week high of 2,000. Sorry, but it's really not up for debate.

I'm genuinely sorry that your wife cannot enjoy her knitting club, or her painting class, or church. as I mentioned in my previous post, this is a TEMPORARY new normal. It hasn't been easy on anyone. Yes, people still have rights. I'd hope they'd also at least have some good sense to keep themselves and their loved ones (and quite frankly other fellow human-beings) safe by realizing that we're all living through a deadly planetary pandemic. The likes of which we haven't seen in 100 years. Just that fact alone should be enough for people to exercise some sound judgement and care. For them to realize it's not business as usual out there. 

We all miss socializing in person. We all miss our hobbies. When this virus finally burns itself out, then we can go back to how things were before. Can't just say, "Okay, that's enough of this. Everyone go back to work. Back to normal. We've decided it's over. All good." 

In many parts of the world, including America; it's survival mode out there. Sorry, but everything else needs to take a backseat to that. And as a Christian, I get it.... Church should not be one of them. There are some who rely on their church for guidance, and support. For some, it's all they have. Even the Christian church has recognized however that it's not normal times we are living through. Thankfully, considering how some interpret who that first of Four Horsemen happens to be, no one is claiming that we have reached that particular time in Humanity's existence; yet. There is strength in The Good Book for all Believers. Thankfully, those of us who believe can still turn to it; even while churches are closed.


----------



## Poppy

My grand-kids are graduating 8th Grade some time soon. I THINK they will have a virtual graduation, but plans may be in the process of a parking lot, or field one, too.

Regarding High School Grads:
Governor set one date (not allowed until the middle of July), the Mayor, in defiance set one sooner, (well, not really in defiance, since larger gatherings are now allowed, perhaps he'll plan to do the gatherings in multiple groups, scattered around), and the board of Ed, also set another date.

Crazy times.

More stores, small businesses, and restaurants are opening in NJ (sometimes with the town father's blessings) sooner than the Governor's Executive Order allows. Towns are closing some streets, so that business can be conducted outdoors with spacial distancing. 

It's more obvious now than ever before that the government only has as much power and authority, and ability to exercise that authority, as the general populace will allow.


----------



## scout24

Here in my neck of the woods, we're still under "mask and social distance" guidelines. Niece's HS graduation was cancelled/postponed, rightly so. They had a parade-ceremony at a local drive-in movie theater the other night, and the grads were all out of their parent's cars hugging and piling onto eachother for photos, not a mask in sight. I'm glad we didn't go, and glad I won't see her for a couple weeks. My sympathy level for the "poor kids" is zero.


----------



## bykfixer

If it were me, 20 years from now i'd probably be bummed if none of my grad photos were showing me in a mask. I mean this is a giant moment that (hopefully) won't be repeated. The year of the mask. In my grad year a bunch of kids with long hair had their hair cut into mullets as a joke on grad night. Good laughs at the 10 year reunion. 

My coworkers grand daughter is graduating next weekend on a football field. He said they plan on taking photos of kids hugging each other wearing masks at 6' apart as a humorous reminder of a bummer situation. 

Now yesterday I spoke of Mrs Fixer having a coworker test positive. She had spoken with the masked lady a week before. She said she was never close to the lady. So while getting chewed about by my client for a thing gone wrong on the project via my company phone Mrs Fixer is calling me repeatedly on my personal phone. When I called her back she says "work is sending me home because I was exposed a week ago"…… great, more good news. 
By sundown I had a sore throat. Went to bed at 8:30. Fell alseep quickly. I woke yesterday feeling woozy and listless. Uh oh. Fever? Nope. Trouble breathing? Nope. So far so good but all day yesterday I was as nervous as a cat on a hot tin roof. By 2:00 I did start to feel better. By supper I was ok. Today I feel great. So it seems yesterday was another "uh oh" allergy attack day as today my voice is all hoarse, but the energy is back and sore throat gone. Lots of dust on the project so hopefully that was all it was. 
Phew!!


----------



## Johnnyh

Let me clarify just a bit. I don’t believe that covid-19 is not a threat or that it’s existence is some sort of hoax. What I do believe to be highly questionable is the cost/ benefit of shuttering our homes and businesses and our lives. This has resulted in millions left jobless, hopeless and depressed. Businesses large and small that will never recover. 
They told us that the deadly pandemic would kill us if we dared to socialize. Then they told us that mass demonstrations are a-ok and would not spread the virus. Now it’s back to “lockdowns are necessary”. 
Yes, I’m very skeptical. To say the least.


----------



## Poppy

bykfixer,
If the Mrs. was sent home due to covid, she should be able to collect unemployment with the extra Federal $600 a week. That's not all that hard to take. 

And for you, being not so overweight, and getting regular exercise, eating fairly well, and not imbibing (as many others are), considering that you are under 60 years old, you should be fine even if you get infected.

So, take a deep breath, my friend and try to relax.
Poppy


----------



## Poppy

Johnnyh said:


> Let me clarify just a bit. I don’t believe that covid-19 is not a threat or that it’s existence is some sort of hoax. What I do believe to be highly questionable is the cost/ benefit of shuttering our homes and businesses and our lives. This has resulted in millions left jobless, hopeless and depressed. Businesses large and small that will never recover.
> They told us that the deadly pandemic would kill us if we dared to socialize. *Then they told us that mass demonstrations are a-ok and would not spread the virus.* Now it’s back to “lockdowns are necessary”.
> Yes, I’m very skeptical. To say the least.


Around here... the main concern of the mass demonstrations is the fear of the threat of the virus being spread.

The clock has not run out yet, but in time we will find out if that fear comes to fruition.


----------



## Johnnyh

Yes, only time will tell. I pray that we see no significant death-spike in all those areas where social distancing guidelines were ignored. It would be a revelation and a godsend. If significant increases in death are seen, may cooler heads prevail with a response of sound health management and treatment (as in: no corona virus victims placed in nursing homes) rather than devastating lockdowns.


----------



## Poppy

Johnnyh said:


> Yes, only time will tell. I pray that we see no significant death-spike in all those areas where social distancing guidelines were ignored. It would be a revelation and a godsend. If significant increases in death are seen, may cooler heads prevail with a response of sound health management and treatment *(as in: no corona virus victims placed in nursing homes*) rather than devastating lockdowns.


Absolutely!
Better isolation of the elderly group residences.

Hopefully, the second time around, now that testing is available, and we have a bit more experience, we'll do a better job of protecting the elderly. And those who are chronically ill.


----------



## Johnnyh

Poppy said:


> Absolutely!
> Better isolation of the elderly group residences.
> 
> Hopefully, the second time around, now that testing is available, and we have a bit more experience, we'll do a better job of protecting the elderly. And those who are chronically ill.



Amen to that.


----------



## bykfixer

Poppy, because the lady was isolated everybody not around her were called back the next day.

My concern is the people I work with or for are either in their 70's or caretakers to elderly or sick when not at work. If I spread it at work I could be potentially wiping out several people. Yesterday I stayed about 20 feet away from everybody and told them why. Working outside I made sure to stay down wind from folks I did have to talk to as well.


----------



## raggie33

what is the proper way to shake hands now? yesterday a woman gave me her elbow i guess i was supossed to hit her elbow with mine. but what is the best way to not shake hands?


----------



## Greta

raggie33 said:


> what is the proper way to shake hands now? yesterday a woman gave me her elbow i guess i was supossed to hit her elbow with mine. but what is the best way to not shake hands?



A BIG HUG!! :grouphug:


----------



## raggie33

Greta said:


> A BIG HUG!! :grouphug:


i truly have not hugged a person in decades. im a mess lol. i dont like to be hugged or to hug. well unless its lady gaga lol


----------



## SCEMan

Here in SoCal, I'm just waiting for the major spike following the reopening and careless mass protests. Luckily we live in a town at the far end of LA County away from the chaos but it'll get here sooner or later. I just pray I'm wrong, but not optimistic based on the latest infection rates.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Poppy said:


> bykfixer,
> If the Mrs. was sent home due to covid, she should be able to collect unemployment with the extra Federal $600 a week. That's not all that hard to take.
> 
> And for you, being not so overweight, and getting regular exercise, eating fairly well, and not imbibing (as many others are), considering that you are under 60 years old, you should be fine even if you get infected.
> 
> So, take a deep breath, my friend and try to relax.
> Poppy


Can you really get unemployment having the virus? I was on unemployment and had the additional 600 added on and two questions I had to answer was are you available to work and are you able to work and if you are sick I don't think you can answer yes.


----------



## Greta

raggie33 said:


> i truly have not hugged a person in decades. im a mess lol. i dont like to be hugged or to hug. well unless its lady gaga lol



I am not really a hugger either. I choose who I hug and do not like to just be HUGGED... ick. Get out of my bubble!!! :sick2:

Funny story for you rags... I go out often in our Slingshot. It's a really neat vehicle with one wheel in the back and two in the front - open cockpit. Looks like the Batmobile... totally! Anyway... I usually cruise around town listening to Lady Gaga (true story!). One day I pulled into the local Chevron, got gas, and went inside to get a pack of smokes. The kid at the register kept looking at me and finally said "You look like Lady Gaga!"... I had to laugh cuz I had JUST been rocking out to Poker Face! :rock: Just recently, I sent my son to get smokes for me and because I smoke a very unusual brand, the kid asked "Oh! Is your Mom Lady Gaga?"... my son laughed and said, "Yeah, that's her!"...


----------



## bykfixer

Lynx, 
My company has a disability plan so I would not know if my state would pay unemployment if I was unable to work. My wife's company does too. 
One guy who works for my company in another state is out with a bad case of covid. He was not expected to live a couple of weeks ago but is now recovering. They think using the malaria drug helped. Anyway he is getting paid his full salary through the temporary disability our company has after his "2 week covid pay" was used. 

Raggae, 
The folks I work with fist bump all through cold and flu season every year so we are doing that. Some say elbow bump puts you too close to the other person and fist bump with out stretched arms does not. A lot of people are shaking hands again. I will at times but I also have a small spray bottle of peroxide to spritz my hand after. 

Greta, my sister used to smoke a brand that she called "cat tampons" but when buying them you had to say the brand, the strength, menthol and 120's. If she sent me to the store she frequented to buy her some the clerk would say "oh, your sisters cat tampons, yeah we have those"……misty, ultralight menthol 120's in a box if I recall correct. She stopped smoking in 2000 or there abouts.


----------



## bigburly912

Reminds me of my cousin that used to visit me when I lived in Tennessee. He would stop at my local smoke shop and get Darjum Black cigs. The guy at the shop called him Ringo. Weren’t many people smoking those so the guy would always ask where he was if I went in to grab a Zino.


----------



## StarHalo

Lynx_Arc said:


> Can you really get unemployment having the virus?



It's two weeks paid if I produce a positive test.


----------



## raggie33

Greta said:


> I am not really a hugger either. I choose who I hug and do not like to just be HUGGED... ick. Get out of my bubble!!! :sick2:
> 
> Funny story for you rags... I go out often in our Slingshot. It's a really neat vehicle with one wheel in the back and two in the front - open cockpit. Looks like the Batmobile... totally! Anyway... I usually cruise around town listening to Lady Gaga (true story!). One day I pulled into the local Chevron, got gas, and went inside to get a pack of smokes. The kid at the register kept looking at me and finally said "You look like Lady Gaga!"... I had to laugh cuz I had JUST been rocking out to Poker Face! :rock: Just recently, I sent my son to get smokes for me and because I smoke a very unusual brand, the kid asked "Oh! Is your Mom Lady Gaga?"... my son laughed and said, "Yeah, that's her!"...


cool her voice is so amazeing.i miss my motorcycle so much i rode 365 days a year winter was rough. but i lost my nerve after so many cars did not see me. it was a honda rebel it used the motor out of the cbr. ps lady gagas new cd is great


----------



## raggie33

bykfixer said:


> Lynx,
> My company has a disability plan so I would not know if my state would pay unemployment if I was unable to work. My wife's company does too.
> One guy who works for my company in another state is out with a bad case of covid. He was not expected to live a couple of weeks ago but is now recovering. They think using the malaria drug helped. Anyway he is getting paid his full salary through the temporary disability our company has after his "2 week covid pay" was used.
> 
> Raggae,
> The folks I work with fist bump all through cold and flu season every year so we are doing that. Some say elbow bump puts you too close to the other person and fist bump with out stretched arms does not. A lot of people are shaking hands again. I will at times but I also have a small spray bottle of peroxide to spritz my hand after.
> 
> Greta, my sister used to smoke a brand that she called "cat tampons" but when buying them you had to say the brand, the strength, menthol and 120's. If she sent me to the store she frequented to buy her some the clerk would say "oh, your sisters cat tampons, yeah we have those"……misty, ultralight menthol 120's in a box if I recall correct. She stopped smoking in 2000 or there abouts.


i like the fist bump i think howie mandel invented it


----------



## PhotonWrangler

raggie33 said:


> i like the fist bump i think howie mandel invented it



Howie Mandel is a confirmed germophobe so I can believe that.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

StarHalo said:


> It's two weeks paid if I produce a positive test.


Is that a covid government thing or your company or insurance plan doing this?


----------



## raggie33

PhotonWrangler said:


> Howie Mandel is a confirmed germophobe so I can believe that.


no one is bad as me i hate being sick so im a clean freak


----------



## Greta

bigburly912 said:


> Reminds me of my cousin that used to visit me when I lived in Tennessee. He would stop at my local smoke shop and get Darjum Black cigs. The guy at the shop called him Ringo. Weren’t many people smoking those so the guy would always ask where he was if I went in to grab a Zino.



I smoke Djarum Bali Hai's... 

Rags... Most amazing voice I've heard in quite some time! Such a talented young lady! I've heard a couple of songs from her new album and STILL quite impressed with her! :twothumbs


----------



## Greta

raggie33 said:


> i like the fist bump i think howie mandel invented it



Actually... I think Howie invented the elbow thing. Could be wrong but I know I've seen him do it.


----------



## raggie33

Greta said:


> I smoke Djarum Bali Hai's...
> 
> Rags... Most amazing voice I've heard in quite some time! Such a talented young lady! I've heard a couple of songs from her new album and STILL quite impressed with her! :twothumbs


here she is with no autotune. she just dont even need autotune https://youtu.be/J4pChk_ziBY


----------



## StarHalo

Greta said:


> I smoke Djarum Bali Hai's...



Look for Djarum Cigarillos if you like both clove and cigars, I always had a pack on hand when I worked at a tobacco store despite everything else available..


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

StarHalo said:


> It's two weeks paid if I produce a positive test.



Two weeks is not enough to see you through the ordeal. Hopefully, (you don't contract it. however) if you do get COVID, your Amazon stock continues to soar.


----------



## bigburly912

Why is two weeks not enough?


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

bigburly912 said:


> Why is two weeks not enough?



Just a guess that StarHalo wouldn't be back to work in two weeks.


----------



## StarHalo

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> Just a guess that StarHalo wouldn't be back to work in two weeks.



I had some malady for roughly a week in January that consisted of only a dry cough, wouldn't be surprised if that was it. If it was, I could work through that no problem - the issue would be if I were still contagious. We've already had roughly a dozen test positive in our building alone, and worldwide there are seven Amazon COVID fatalities thus far, no need to add to those numbers. From April through May we were given unlimited time off, meaning showing up on time or at all was completely optional; unfortunately it looks like that offer might have been more appropriate later in the year..


----------



## Poppy

Lynx_Arc said:


> Can you really get unemployment having the virus? I was on unemployment and had the additional 600 added on and two questions I had to answer was are you available to work and are you able to work and if you are sick I don't think you can answer yes.



Lynx_Arc,
I am sorry that I do not know the answer to your question. I think that unemployment eligibility may vary state to state. I would bet that the Federal intention of the $600 per week is to keep people home if they are infected, or a care-taker of an infected. It is my understanding, that runs until July 31,2020. Of course the Feds say you can get the $600 IF you are eligible to receive unemployment benefits. So there, is the caveat.

They also ask if you are getting a pension, sick pay, or disability pay. 

I am pretty sure, one or more, of the questions is along the lines of, is your unemployment related to the corona virus? 

Sorry I couldn't be of more help.


----------



## Monocrom

Johnnyh said:


> Let me clarify just a bit. I don’t believe that covid-19 is not a threat or that it’s existence is some sort of hoax. What I do believe to be highly questionable is the cost/ benefit of shuttering our homes and businesses and our lives. This has resulted in millions left jobless, hopeless and depressed. Businesses large and small that will never recover.
> They told us that the deadly pandemic would kill us if we dared to socialize. Then they told us that mass demonstrations are a-ok and would not spread the virus. Now it’s back to “lockdowns are necessary”.
> Yes, I’m very skeptical. To say the least.




I appreciate the clarification. Thank you for that. My view is, the politicians in charge have recognized this virus as a major threat. And these measures, as severe as they are, in the short-term are preferable to the risk of exposure. Especially in highly concentrated areas of infection. You have a virus for which there is no immunity. Infected individuals who have recovered from it, can get re-infected. Some carriers show little, sometimes no outward symptoms. Causing some to think they're perfectly fine, and thus more prone to infect family members or others whom they've self-quarantined with. 

At first it was just the elderly, the very young, and others with compromised immune systems. Now it's everyone who is at risk. I agree that long-term, these measures would not just be psychologically devastating to many folks. But frankly, unsustainable. People will eventually run out of money and patience. But in the short-term, these are the best that can be realistically done, without a vaccine. 

The politicians who told us that mass demonstrations are perfectly fine.... They just want to make sure they get re-elected and stay in power. From strictly the point of view of NOT spreading this pandemic further, faster; no of course such demonstrations are not okay. Ironically, an ideal way to tell which politicians actually care about the general public vs. which ones just want to remain popular and get re-elected.


----------



## wacbzz

Tonight’s the night...


----------



## raggie33

wacbzz said:


> Tonight’s the night...



every night is the night lol


----------



## Poppy

Here is a June 11, 2020 article by the NY Times. It is a synopsis of some of the treatments, under study, and being used.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/11/health/coronavirus-cytokine-storm.html

It seems that researchers are pulling all the strings they can, to beat this pandemic back.


----------



## Poppy

wacbzz,
Every once in a while I really enjoy a bottle or two of Samuel Smith's "Organic Chocolate Stout"


----------



## bykfixer

Chocolate beer? 

Boys, you're making me glad I stopped drinking 20+ years ago. 

"Corona virus? Is that thing still going?" overheard between two youngsters at my work last week. "That's what they're saying" says the other youngster. 
Meanwhile it's day 10 or so since my wife was potentially exposed so with each sneeze we're both kinda walking around on egg shells. Sip coffee, a drop or two ends up in the ole windpipe……cough cough cough……phew, just coffee going down the ole windpipe. 
We were already mindful of being around others prior, just in case they had it. Now we are being extra extra mindful about being around others just in case we have it. Now that store shelves are stocked fairly well again we were discussing donating our extra stuff to a food bank, but have decided to hang onto it a little longer just in case we have to quarentine. 

I had hoped things would be a lot closer to normal by July 4th case-wise but with all of those large gatherings still occurring perhaps by Labor Day things will be more normal after the impending spikes abate. Another example how humans do a helluva good job at spreading disease. Cases will likely spike unless herd immunity is greater than previously known. We should know by July 4th. And all those energized youth should definitely speed up the herd immunity process. 

Fathers Day is just around the corner. My son and I had discussed going to a baseball game that day this year back in January. That's out. Maybe we'll watch "42" or "moneyball" instead. "The natural" is always good to watch as well.

Some curve numbers per world-o-meter in the US yesterday





Here's where the US was case-wise curve yesterday. 
Getting better. 





The death count curve yesterday. 
Looking much better.

In my state the numbers at "long term care" facilities is far exceeding other settings they call it. What they had been including in that was "independent communities" (ie seasoned folks communities without assistance) is now being factored into "congregate" settings, which can be construed as general population where there are typically groups. Churches, offices, grocery stores etc. 

30-39 group is leading the pack still with 40-49 in a close second and 20-29 pulling up fast still. 50+ and 19 under are largely flat in terms of uptick in new cases. We're up to #12 nation wise in case numbers but percent positive is now below 8% with numbers tested steadily increasing. So while vandals drop statues onto themselves the spread of the novel corona is tracking in a good direction. Hopefully that trend will still be going in the right direction for the next few weeks. 

Meanwhile most churches in my area are still using alternative service methods and restaraunts do not have lines of people waiting to get in. Some are still closed. A new Jamaican joint is trying to get started near me. 
Bad timing.


----------



## bigburly912

Hmmm. Just food for thought. The guy who works for the company I do was successfully treated with hydroxychloroquine and Z-pack. I thought they weren’t even attempting to use that anymore. I asked my wife about her cousin and they are using it on him as well. I won’t get into all the political reasons I think that is odd but man that is odd.


----------



## Poppy

bykfixer said:


> Chocolate beer?
> 
> Boys, you're making me glad I stopped drinking 20+ years ago.
> 
> <SNIP>
> 
> In my state the numbers at "long term care" facilities is far exceeding other settings they call it. What they had been including in that was "independent communities" (ie seasoned folks communities without assistance) is now being factored into "congregate" settings, which can be construed as general population where there are typically groups. Churches, offices, grocery stores etc.
> 
> 30-39 group is leading the pack still with 40-49 in a close second and 20-29 pulling up fast still. 50+ and 19 under are largely flat in terms of uptick in new cases. We're up to #12 nation wise in case numbers but percent positive is now below 8% with numbers tested steadily increasing. So while vandals drop statues onto themselves the spread of the novel corona is tracking in a good direction. Hopefully that trend will still be going in the right direction for the next few weeks.
> 
> Meanwhile most churches in my area are still using alternative service methods and restaraunts do not have lines of people waiting to get in. Some are still closed. A new Jamaican joint is trying to get started near me.
> Bad timing.


Fortunately, according to your numbers, it is the relatively young who are leading the pack in getting the virus. Unless they have underlying issues, for the most part, they'll survive, it is the outlier who won't.

There is a local brewery that has been trying to open for at least a year. They have had one issue after another, between the town fathers, and then not enough electric power to their side of the highway, they have traversed delay after delay. Finally they are ready to open, and due to covid, they are not allowed. It's a shame.


----------



## bykfixer

Mrs Fixer has allergic reactions to penecilin products so a z-pac is out. She found out when taking it back in the winter. We spent the night in an ER on that one. 

The malaria drug seemingly works with some and not with others. The original thinking was it would do similar to a corona as it does with malaria in that it halts or slows the reproduction of the virus once inside the patient. That they say reduces how much the body goes to war with itself while trying to stop an invasion by the virus. 

Is it the cure? Probably why it was so contreversal at first within the expert community. They were probably afraid the populace would just relax, go get some malaria pills at CVS and disregard the warnings to spread out, disinfect and not touch your face. Once politics entered the discussion the experts hushed up about it and quietly went about conducting trials. 

A few pages back I spoke of the coworker who is now really sick and how he showed up to work with symptoms for days, and not until another coworker called him out about coming to work sick did he even get checked out. He landed in a hospital a few days after and nobody else in that office tested positive (or still have not). Apparently the guy is very heavy with extra flab, had a very inactive lifestyle and was taking insulin to control his glucose. My boss said he was near death so they gave him the cocktail and within 48 hours was off the ventalator. Yet the thinking is he will remain hospitalized for a while longer. Another coworkers elderly father in law got it while in a nursing home and died last week. He was in the final stages of pancreatic cancer so it may have actually lessened the time he would have suffered.

Meanwhile the pandemic continues. Still far behind the US, Bazil is creeping up on a million cases. They are nearly keeping up with the US in new cases per day at over 20k per day.


----------



## bigburly912

Z-pac is a different drug class then penicillin so she is probably allergic to a lot of antibiotics.


----------



## StarHalo

Poppy said:


> Every once in a while I really enjoy a bottle or two of Samuel Smith's "Organic Chocolate Stout"



I'm not a stout guy, but on roughly one cold winter night a year, even I will snuggle up with the worst-kept secret in chocolate stout beersnobbery, Stone's Xocoveza.


----------



## Poppy

bykfixer said:


> Mrs Fixer has allergic reactions to penecilin products so a z-pac is out. She found out when taking it back in the winter. We spent the night in an ER on that one.
> 
> The malaria drug seemingly works with some and not with others. The original thinking was it would do similar to a corona as it does with malaria in that it halts or slows the reproduction of the virus once inside the patient. That they say reduces how much the body goes to war with itself while trying to stop an invasion by the virus.
> 
> *Is it the cure? Probably why it was so controversial at first* within the expert community. They were probably afraid the populace would just relax, go get some malaria pills at CVS and disregard the warnings to spread out, disinfect and not touch your face. Once politics entered the discussion the experts hushed up about it and quietly went about conducting trials.
> 
> <SNIP>
> .


Hydroxychloroquine is a treatment, but certainly NOT the cure.

If it cured, we wouldn't have over 100,000 deaths.

In fact according to this study, and others, it does NOT appear to be effective.

_On 5 June, researchers in the United Kingdom announced the results from the largest trial yet, Recovery, in a press release. In a group of 1542 hospitalized patients treated with hydroxychloroquine, 25.7% had died after 28 days, compared with 23.5% in a group of 3132 patients who had only received standard care. “These data convincingly rule out any meaningful mortality benefit,” wrote the investigators, who ended the study early and promised to publish the full results as soon as possible. .... MORE... _


----------



## wacbzz

Nice stout Poppy! I’m sure you looked closely at my glass...

The plum beer from Poland from last night:






And from the store just now, I picked up this champion:






My way way of dealing with the crazy, cray work load and COVID-19. :shrug:


----------



## turbodog

Johnnyh said:


> Let me clarify just a bit. I don’t believe that covid-19 is not a threat or that it’s existence is some sort of hoax. What I do believe to be highly questionable is the cost/ benefit of shuttering our homes and businesses and our lives. This has resulted in millions left jobless, hopeless and depressed. Businesses large and small that will never recover.
> They told us that the deadly pandemic would kill us if we dared to socialize. Then they told us that mass demonstrations are a-ok and would not spread the virus. Now it’s back to “lockdowns are necessary”.
> Yes, I’m very skeptical. To say the least.



You're seeing the side effects of lack or COORDINATED leadership between local, state, federal government/agencies (and even businesses that should have a plan for this). And while some planning has been done it's another thing entirely to have your 'disaster plan' actually happen.

I'm no bona fide expert in this, but I was responsible for coming up with a plan exactly for this (pandemic) about 3 years ago. It was planned, evaluated, tested, written up, and revisited each quarter. And when it was put into place we had very little problems with it going off exactly as desired... most all of those were related to internet issues in the work from home group.

You can look at this thing from a top down perspective... hospitals are full (or almost) in places. Infections are slowing but still trending upward. Eventually those 2 curves intersect and really bad things happen.

My 'work from home' plan was activated in the very beginning of all this. Currently we are looking at continuing through end of 2020 at least... and this is in the state that doesn't have bad numbers (yet).


----------



## idleprocess

turbodog said:


> My 'work from home' plan was activated in the very beginning of all this. Currently we are looking at continuing through end of 2020 at least... and this is in the state that doesn't have bad numbers (yet).



My employer - _*famously*_ reluctant to allow work from home under most circumstances - hasn't said a peep about returning to the office outside of general statements about _revisiting the plan this summer_. I expect that the guidance will be to stay tuned.


----------



## PhotonWrangler

idleprocess said:


> My employer - _*famously*_ reluctant to allow work from home under most circumstances - hasn't said a peep about returning to the office outside of general statements about _revisiting the plan this summer_. I expect that the guidance will be to stay tuned.




I think I know who that is. I've been following the news on tech companies and their WFH arrangements. I was relieved to see that they finally relented and did the right thing.


----------



## turbodog

idleprocess said:


> My employer - _*famously*_ reluctant to allow work from home under most circumstances - hasn't said a peep about returning to the office outside of general statements about _revisiting the plan this summer_. I expect that the guidance will be to stay tuned.



Yeah, that's what was so funny. This client vigorously resisted home workers before covid, but did get me to do the business continuation plan.

Now, they are singing the praises of uninterrupted workflow and are very liberal with how long they are going to embrace remote work.


----------



## wacbzz

Coronavirus break...


----------



## idleprocess

PhotonWrangler said:


> I think I know who that is. I've been following the news on tech companies and their WFH arrangements. I was relieved to see that they finally relented and did the right thing.



The fame I alluded to is likely more internal.



turbodog said:


> Yeah, that's what was so funny. This client vigorously resisted home workers before covid, but did get me to do the business continuation plan.
> 
> Now, they are singing the praises of uninterrupted workflow and are very liberal with how long they are going to embrace remote work.



There's a member of the C-suite at my employer that's known to loathe WFH despite the company having all the infrastructure in place. However, once the offices emptied out in March, about all that was needed was to spin up more VPN capacity; there were some hiccups those first ~2 weeks, but nothing serious even as video team calls suddenly got popular.


----------



## Monocrom

Recently got in a new, small shipment of KN95 masks. N95s are far too expensive, even if you manage to find a legit source for them. Most of the time, it's either a scam, horrendously expensive, you end up waiting months to get your order, or you get half your order; and then the seller vanishes off of the internet with your money. Or, some combination of the above if you do get your order. (Honestly, same thing happens with KN95s too. Just to a lesser extent and they tend to be less outrageously expensive.)

Sadly, plenty of ghouls, scammers, and pandemic profiteers out there selling fake KN95s all over the place. Thankfully, there is a simple test. Though it does mean sacrificing a mask from your order. Still worth it to tell if you got sent the real thing though.

Open the flat KN95. Put it on your face, take it off. Hold the mask hanging down by one ear-loop, put the other ear-loop in your mouth and use that as a 3rd hand. With your other hand, pour some water into the mask's inside layer. Hold it there for at least two minutes. Don't move! You don't want the water spilling out the sides. And it's so easy for that to happen. Should be standing in front of a mirror while doing this. Look at the seam down the middle of the mask. There should be absolutely no water droplets at all. No drips. The fakes will often start dripping as soon as a minute in.

After that, cut a patch off of the mask with scissors. Older ones had 5 thin layers inside. Newer ones that are still good will have 4 inside. Take the white layer inside, there should be two and they're usually pressed together so tightly it looks like only one. Take a lighter to that filter layer. It should just melt. If it catches on fire, you've been cheated! 

Yeah, you sacrifice a mask during the testing process. No way around that. But you have peace of mind knowing the order of several masks you received is made up of real KN95s.


----------



## PhotonWrangler

idleprocess said:


> ...However, once the offices emptied out in March, about all that was needed was to spin up more VPN capacity; there were some hiccups those first ~2 weeks, but nothing serious even as video team calls suddenly got popular.



One of the points being driven home to IT departments by the pandemic is to invest in more laptops and fewer desktops for this reason. The people at my workplace who were already using laptops had a much more seamless transition to WFH than desktop users, who may or may not have a suitable desktop machine at home with enough memory and appropriate security measures in place. When you allow someone to have VPN access from a personal machine in their home, you're allowing them to expose your internal network to everything that's going on with their machine. Even with tight ACLs and other measures in place on the VPN, it's a real gamble and the bad guys know this. The sudden popularity of WFH has brought a considerable uptick in attacks on remote computers as a gateway into corporate networks.


----------



## Poppy

wacbzz said:


> Nice stout Poppy! I’m sure you looked closely at my glass...
> 
> <Pictures snip>
> 
> My way way of dealing with the crazy, cray work load and COVID-19. :shrug:


Yes, wacbzz,
I did see your glass. Lol.

The funny thing is I have been on an anti-inflammatory diet for a year and a half. No grains. The only alcohol that is allowed is Red wine, and Stout Beer.

With corona at home living, I have fallen miserably off the diet. Burgers with buns, bagels in the morning, occasional pasta, Pizza, rice, corn, iced tea with sugar. I am sticking to the red wine, but when we go floating in the kayaks, it's Miller Time, or Coors light.

It's great to see you enjoying your time at home and using charcoal for cooking.
I'm usually too instant gratification and use propane.


----------



## bykfixer

So at my work I now have a trainee and an intern trying to get my attention by constantly trying to impress me with things young people find important. Some of which, if it were around when I was young may have seemed important to me too. But my focus is on a fast paced assignment without a lot of time to dilly-dally. In the meantime I have to keep reminding both there's this pandemic thing going so back the **** away (again). 

It's like having two baby ducks constantly chasing me around. Both good kids but they cannot seem to understand I do not want a case of covid-19. Now that bars and restaraunts are back open they brag about all the places they've been to lately so it makes me feel less safe with each day. After potentially being exposed at work my wife is dealing with the same situation as she works with young people too. 

No offense to anybody under 30 reading this but the pandemic is still lurking around. Now that things have opened back up and public gatherings have resumed it is more important than ever to keep the social distance thing in mind. My generation (born in the 60's) and older remember when the flu was deadly so we tend to remain vigilent still. But for whatever reason the younger sect seem to be forgetting the potential danger of passing this thing to the seasoned folks and those with less than perfect health. 

Was that a rant? Well it wasn't meant to be. If it was it's over.


----------



## Dave D

Low cost drug found, by UK Scientists, to cut death rate of those on ventilators by 1/3rd and those requiring oxygen by 1/5th.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-53061281

Dexamethasone is a widely available cheap steroid.


----------



## bykfixer

Good to hear Dave. Thanks for the info.


----------



## bigburly912

Dave D said:


> Low cost drug found, by UK Scientists, to cut death rate of those on ventilators by 1/3rd and those requiring oxygen by 1/5th.
> 
> https://www.bbc.com/news/health-53061281
> 
> Dexamethasone is a widely available cheap steroid.



In 3 days it will be deemed the deadliest thing ever and nobody is to touch it. Then a week later it’ll be fine. Then we will pretend nobody ever knew about it.


----------



## RedLED

Yesterday, I went out to get lunch for my wife, and myself. I went to her favorite Mexican restaurant to get her order, no one in the place, empty. After that I stopped at my favorite diner for a bag of cheeseburgers and another bag of fries, again this place was empty as well. The time: 12:30 PM!

Understand that these restaurants are both hugely popular, well known, long established, and frequented. Prior to COVID19 it would be difficult to find a table at the high lunch hour in witch I stopped by.

Very, very sad. I put fifty dollars in each locations tip jar. 

I really hope hope things get better.

RL


----------



## raggie33

watching agt why no mask or other safety measures? is agt recored like months before its aired?


----------



## StarHalo

raggie33 said:


> watching agt why no mask or other safety measures? is agt recored like months before its aired?



Yeah, essentially everything on broadcast TV is recycled content at this point; the late night shows are new because they're all recording from home, that's about it.


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

StarHalo said:


> Yeah, essentially everything on broadcast TV is recycled content at this point; the late night shows are new because they're all recording from home, that's about it.



One wonders why something "new" can be oh so stale.  Nothing but little men behind a curtain.


----------



## Poppy

Johnny Carson, 1973...


----------



## RedLED

Check out Jonny's slacks and tie, so seventies.


----------



## nbp

bykfixer said:


> No offense to anybody under 30 reading this but the pandemic is still lurking around. Now that things have opened back up and public gatherings have resumed it is more important than ever to keep the social distance thing in mind. My generation (born in the 60's) and older remember when the flu was deadly so we tend to remain vigilent still. But for whatever reason the younger sect seem to be forgetting the potential danger of passing this thing to the seasoned folks and those with less than perfect health.
> 
> Was that a rant? Well it wasn't meant to be. If it was it's over.




To be fair, even many high risk people don’t take it that seriously either. At a customer’s house today, a couple that must be well into their 70s, and she’s telling me about the huge July 4 party they are going to have. Last week another older lady was telling me they’re done isolating, and are having their kids and grandkids around again. Yesterday a retired couple told me they had their kids and grand kids over for the weekend for their 40th anniversary. 

Media can demonize young people for going to a bar and paint retirees as the victims of their irresponsible actions, but I don’t see how it’s much different than the old people having parties at their homes which my experience is showing to be fairly common at this point.


----------



## StarHalo

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> One wonders why something "new" can be oh so stale.  Nothing but little men behind a curtain.



Colbert actually had a live concert the other night, in a way that only The Flaming Lips could casually accommodate:


----------



## bykfixer

nbp said:


> To be fair, even many high risk people don’t take it that seriously either. At a customer’s house today, a couple that must be well into their 70s, and she’s telling me about the huge July 4 party they are going to have. Last week another older lady was telling me they’re done isolating, and are having their kids and grandkids around again. Yesterday a retired couple told me they had their kids and grand kids over for the weekend for their 40th anniversary.
> 
> Media can demonize young people for going to a bar and paint retirees as the victims of their irresponsible actions, but I don’t see how it’s much different than the old people having parties at their homes which my experience is showing to be fairly common at this point.



Seems to me the big quake is over but sometimes the after shocks are bad too. If the vulnerable community (as my governor puts it) want to party like it's 1999 that's on them. I don't mean to pick out one group as the worst violators, especially the millenials who already have blame for lots of other things. Much of the blame is cast on them by the generations that taught them to be the way they are or did not teach them at all. 

My point was to say the younger crowd who have never faced a situation like deadly flu or in this case a new super bug and do not instictively understand the dangers of a simple virus. Heck one time at work a man I was working for kept ranting about those stupid young people this, those stupid young people that. I say "hey buster, I'm one of those stupid young people and frankly I'm tired of hearing how stupid we are from people like you who never taught us jack squat". He was my mentor for the next 5 years. Now it's my turn to teach the young. I cannot undo the habits of foolish seasoned folks. But I can show the younger crowd how to avoid some of our mistakes while passing on some common sense approaches to life. 

While cautioning one of my trainees yesterday outside on staying 6' away I pointed out how he was down wind of me. "What if I were sick and did not know it?" I blew a puff of my cigarette in his direction and showed him how my smoke could be contagious droplets. He saw that and stayed farther from me the rest of the day.


----------



## Poppy

bykfixer said:


> <SNIP>
> 
> While cautioning one of my trainees yesterday outside on staying 6' away I pointed out how he was down wind of me. "What if I were sick and did not know it?" I blew a puff of my cigarette in his direction and showed him how my smoke could be contagious droplets. He saw that and stayed farther from me the rest of the day.


Great demonstration!

:thumbsup:


----------



## Devildude

Visual demonstrations usually work the best. Not many people are aware of how things really happen in life.


----------



## bykfixer

My point was not to single out any group, but to show we all must continue to be viligant for a while longer. 
This one is working opposite of the Spanish flu by taking out more older folks first where the Spanish flu round 1 took out the young first. 
Round 2 of the Spanish flu took out middle aged people and round 3 took out older folks. 
Autopsies in recent times from "Spanish flu" grave sights have shown there was 3 distinct versions of the same virus. It still baffles scientist how it became mutated into 3 (or possibly more) versions in less time than it normally takes a virus to mutate once. 

Being this one has been known to be around for about 6 months or perhaps a bit longer, history shows us it may turn into something that puts younger people in jeopardy. I pray it does not. People my age and older remember when kids our age died from the flu. We should know better. If my generation and forward throws caution to the wind, well so be it. They were warned. 

I say all of that while (now) on day 1 of a self quarentine. While using caution my wife was potentially exposed at work and now has head cold-like symptoms. While awaiting test results we are self quarentined. I show zero symptoms. Trouble is the lady Mrs Fixer was potentially exposed to has tested positive a week ago and still shows zero symptoms. She got tested as a precaution when another coworker got sick and tested positive. Mrs Fixer and I have been battling allergies for weeks now. I have been taking medicine. She has not. So our fingers are crossed she is just plagued with an allergy attack symptoms but we chose to isolate completely from coworkers until the test result is known. 

It's been 8 days since her potential exposure. Average time for symptoms to occur is 5-7 days. Everytime I knew the person who I got a flu from it was 3-5 days when I got sick. Mrs Fixer is rarely sick with anything, even when everybody else around us are. Out of 20 people my wife works with 18 tested negative a week after the first person tested positive. That lady got it from her husband who got it from his work (outdoors). Perhaps we got lucky this time. We should know in a day or so. (fingers and toes crossed). We followed the guidelines since March, but one slip here or there and it can get ya. 

Two of my 4 coworkers are mid 70's. A third has a girlfriend who takes care of an Alzheimers patient and the fourth has elderly parents. I really, really, really hope I did not pass it to them.


----------



## Poppy

Mr fixer my friend,
I hope it is allergies, or a head cold.

While my daughter was strictly self quarantined, she stayed in her bedroom, except to shower, and we kept an exhaust fan in the window of her room, to keep it negative pressurized. I kept a window in the kitchen open so that the exhausted air could be replaced.

We were particularly careful, so that the kids didn't get sick. But just as careful, so that I, as the caregiver didn't get sick either.

Here's to hoping she is feeling better soon.
Stay safe.


----------



## bykfixer

I remember way back your daughter had a mystery illness. Did it end up being the covid Poppy? 

When I told my coworkers what's up they said "you?" "you were so anal about distancing, disinfecting and hollering at us to back away" lol.


----------



## Poppy

bykfixer said:


> I remember way back your daughter had a mystery illness. Did it end up being the covid Poppy?
> 
> When I told my coworkers what's up they said "you?" "you were so anal about distancing, disinfecting and hollering at us to back away" lol.


That's still an unknown.
She did the swab test twice.
The specialist thought that it was a false negative the first time and the second time, while it was also negative, that she probably had cleared the virus by time they tested the second time.
She still had a low grade fever, and got the antibody test, which also came back negative.

The specialist stated that she had a list of patients with long time low fevers, over two months.

Very early on, I had some tracheal, phlegm; not anything deep, nor for that matter particularly productive. A couple of weeks ago, I had an antibody test done, thinking that if I came back positive, then it could be stated that at least SOMEONE in the household had it and may have exposed the other. But mine was negative too!

The last couple of days she had no fever, but it returned last night with the sweats again. Still low... 100.2.

I suggested that she call the specialist again, and see what she has to say. Her GP wanted to do a head CT which was denied by the insurance carrier. SO I suggested that perhaps if the specialist agreed, and ordered it then it may get approved. 

Thanks for asking, but the short answer is: I don't know if the specialist is still hanging her hat on Covid despite all the negative tests.


----------



## raggie33

people are still saying on twitter that the flu is worst


----------



## bykfixer

The concensus is up to 500k people have died from the flu in the last 12 months. 
450k have have been attributed to covid 19 in about 6 months. Apparently the data for flu worldwide is estimated each year from 250k to 500k deaths 
https://www.medscape.com/answers/219557-3459/what-is-the-global-incidence-of-influenza

Now once herd immunity sets in perhaps the future strains of flu may be more dangerous than future versions of this novel corona, but right now the new corona seems to be taking out people at a faster rate than the recent flu strains.


----------



## Monocrom

So this week at my 3rd shift job, been seeing a scary trend that is getting worse. Keep in mind, I'm in New York City. The infection and death rates are higher here than in most countries. You'd think that Law Enforcement professionals would take the planetary pandemic seriously. Especially since they're exposed to random members of the general public often, on a daily basis. Often, having to touch them and get up close and personal to arrest someone.

Well.... You'd be wrong. Many think the building I work in is just various Corporate offices. There are a handful of those. But the majority are made up of Administrative offices belonging to a number of different Law Enforcement agencies. Both state, as well as Federal ones. Before the start of this previous work week, building owners put out signs politely asking tenants to all wear masks. Hand-sanitizer stations were installed at the main entrances to the building too. Signs also went up asking no more than two individuals per each elevator. 

Nothing like seeing a bunch of LEOs show up for work, no masks, crowding into an elevator, nine at a time. Laughing, joking, carrying on. Then they "suit up" for work. Head back down in the same elevator, only now with masks on. Apparently they think the coronavirus will politely wait until they've all punched in for the day, before trying to infect any of them.

Next day, same process. Only this time, none of them bothered to wear masks at all; while riding down the elevator and all suited up. I'm seeing all of this on the security monitors. As for gloves?.... They don't need no stinking gloves. They don't bother with those either. And that's just one agency in the building. Been at that client's site long enough to pick out who most of the various LEOs are. They're the worst offenders. Keep in mind that working there doesn't mean these particular LEOs don't go out and interact with the public while on-duty. They do.


----------



## idleprocess

The wearing of face masks in public has _*more*_ than inverted in the bits of DFW I occasionally visit; a month-plus ago it was ~75%/25% of the public masked/unmasked and ~100% of retail staff wearing masks... now you're lucky if it's 20% of the public wearing masks and half of retail staff. That and the greater public years for restaurants, movie theaters, and other indoor pleasures involving crowds. I hope we don't see COVID-19 infection rates kangaroo-ing like the stock market, but I fear we're in for another large round of infections, restrictions, and testing the capacity of the medical system.


----------



## turbodog

idleprocess said:


> The wearing of face masks in public has _*more*_ than inverted in the bits of DFW I occasionally visit; a month-plus ago it was ~75%/25% of the public masked/unmasked and ~100% of retail staff wearing masks... now you're lucky if it's 20% of the public wearing masks and half of retail staff. That and the greater public years for restaurants, movie theaters, and other indoor pleasures involving crowds. I hope we don't see COVID-19 infection rates kangaroo-ing like the stock market, but I fear we're in for another large round of infections, restrictions, and testing the capacity of the medical system.



I'm seeing the same thing more or less. Grocery used to be 95%+ masked, now it's 15%. Other stores are similar.

If you want to see where you state will be in "X" time, just watch the leaders (AZ, FL, TX, etc)

I'm NOT looking forward to NY's rebound...


----------



## idleprocess

turbodog said:


> If you want to see where you state will be in "X" time, just watch the leaders (AZ, FL, *TX*, etc)



Yeah, that would be where I live, thus the trepidation.


----------



## raggie33

i wear my mask to keep me safe and to keep others safe. but i still get looks like im a mad man for wearing a mask. i still even use hand satasizer (spell check do ya job darn it) i use it even before i go in store


----------



## StarHalo

Cali gov just mandated masks in public, so we're going the other way; the other states followed when we went through this the first time, not looking like they'll go for it again..


----------



## Poppy

Yes monocrom,
I agree.

Often I'd see in the news, multiple police officers standing and congregating in tight groups, some with, some without masks.

I often thought it ironic to see them walking side by side patrolling parks and public spaces, encouraging/enforcing social distancing.

Yesterday, here in New Jersey, I went to a local Home Depot, to pick up a few carabiners. I turned into the parking lot, and drove right through it, and out the other side. It was jammed packed! Gassed up my car, and drove by a Kohls (large chain department clothing store) parking lot was jammed. 

If people are back to work, maybe the economy will pick right back up.

I went to another HD, and decided to venture in. They were busy, but not jammed. Everyone wore a mask.


----------



## turbodog

idleprocess said:


> Yeah, that would be where I live, thus the trepidation.



I know. Post was mostly for others reading.

I'm looking at today's data... comparing new cases to A) active cases and B) total cases, all on a per state basis.

States that stand out in BOTH rankings: Al, AZ, FL, MT, NC, UT.

1. TX not on that list, today.
2. Not all states in yet

TX gross numbers are big, but so is state population. I'm looking at rate.

I'm also looking at active cases per million residents. By that metric, TX doesn't look so bad.

However, that said, every single piece of data I am tracking shows the numbers are steadily increasing across the board: local, state, regional, national, continental, on a gross and percentage ranking.


----------



## Monocrom

idleprocess said:


> The wearing of face masks in public has _*more*_ than inverted in the bits of DFW I occasionally visit; a month-plus ago it was ~75%/25% of the public masked/unmasked and ~100% of retail staff wearing masks... now you're lucky if it's 20% of the public wearing masks and half of retail staff. That and the greater public years for restaurants, movie theaters, and other indoor pleasures involving crowds. I hope we don't see COVID-19 infection rates kangaroo-ing like the stock market, but I fear we're in for another large round of infections, restrictions, and testing the capacity of the medical system.




Sadly, I fear we're going to see all of that taking place.


----------



## PhotonWrangler

Monocrom said:


> ...Nothing like seeing a bunch of LEOs show up for work, no masks, crowding into an elevator, nine at a time. Laughing, joking, carrying on.



GAH. This is a worst case scenario for virus transmission. Talking spreads the virus farther than breathing and laughing spreads it even farther. Combine this with the tight space of an elevator and you're just asking for it.

Do some people think that wearing a mask makes you look weak? I think it makes you look very, very smart.


----------



## bykfixer

Food for thought on the LEO in elevators in New York thing: 

If 400k New York folks have had it, at least 80% will be fine that would mean at least 320k folks. If 50% are over the thing that would be 200k. Being LEO and others in that field are first responders may have been early cases, could it be that those folks in elevators are batches of people who had it, recovered and can safely mingle with each other?
Just a thought. 

In my state lots of folks had it, got well and are now back at work like normal and are not a threat to the general population anymore. In my state the numbers are maybe 12% of what New York is dealing with. Yet most of our deaths are in nursing homes. 

The first person working with Mrs Fixer to show positive got pretty sick for about 5 days but in week 2 is nearing symptom free. The second one, the one who was symptom free but tested negative is still largely symptom free and speaks of a stuffy nose after a second week. That was 9 days ago when Mrs Fixer was near her. Her cold like symptoms are getting better while we await test results. Her energy level has returned to normal. I'm still symptom free aside from the same allergy symptoms I've been dealing with off and on for a couple of months now. So we presume the test will come back negative.


----------



## PhotonWrangler

It's certainly possible, bykfixer. It's impossible to tell who's had it versus who might be an asymptomatic carrier though. Granted that first responders in NYC have probably been exposed at a higher rate than the general public so many of them could already have antibodies.

A co-worker of mine got it and was pretty ill for a couple of weeks but he's back to 100% now. I wasn't close enough to him for long enough to have gotten it so it appears that I dodged a bullet, and no one else in my workplace has had it to my knowledge. I hope that you and Mrs. Fixer remain healthy also.


----------



## StarHalo

AMC Theaters reopening July 15th.


----------



## ven

raggie33 said:


> i wear my mask to keep me safe and to keep others safe. but i still get looks like im a mad man for wearing a mask. i still even use hand satasizer (spell check do ya job darn it) i use it even before i go in store




Thats perfect raggie, it means people will stay even further away! Stay safe.


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

Why are LEO laughing on an elevator a threat while screaming rioters are not? 



> "However, as public health advocates, we do not condemn these gatherings as risky for COVID-19 transmission. We support them as vital to the national public health and to the threatened health specifically of Black people in the United States. We can show that support by facilitating safest protesting practices without detracting from demonstrators' ability to gather and demand change. This should not be confused with a permissive stance on all gatherings, particularly protests against stay-home orders."
> 
> Signed by 1,200 health professionals
> https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/05/health/health-care-open-letter-protests-coronavirus-trnd/index.html



Perhaps the reason a lot of people are no longer donning masks is because they believe the experts have either been wrong or have been lying about COVID-19 from the start. 

The experts told us: 
COVID-19 would kill two million Americans. 
The infection mortality rate was 3.4%. 
COVID-19 doesn't discriminate against age. 
It's still dangerous to send students to school. 
Asymptomatic carriers are killing Granny. 
Hospitals would be overwhelmed. 
We'd need tens of thousands of ventilators. 
Up to 80% of the population would need to be infected to reach herd-immunity. 
Lock-downs were the only way to stop the spread of the virus. 
The reproduction rate was slowed by lock-downs. 
Wearing a mask won't protect you. 
Wear a mask to protect yourself. 
Wear a mask to protect others.

The list goes on and on ....


----------



## idleprocess

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> Perhaps the reason a lot of people are no longer donning masks is because they believe the experts have either been wrong or have been lying about COVID-19 from the start.
> 
> The experts told us:
> COVID-19 would kill two million Americans.
> The infection mortality rate was 3.4%.
> COVID-19 doesn't discriminate against age.
> It's still dangerous to send students to school.
> Asymptomatic carriers are killing Granny.
> Hospitals would be overwhelmed.
> We'd need tens of thousands of ventilators.
> Up to 80% of the population would need to be infected to reach herd-immunity.
> Lock-downs were the only way to stop the spread of the virus.
> The reproduction rate was slowed by lock-downs.
> Wearing a mask won't protect you.
> Wear a mask to protect yourself.
> Wear a mask to protect others.
> 
> The list goes on and on ....



You mean the _preliminary models_ - so breathlessly reported by profit-motivated news media - that made numerous assumptions about the virus, an absence of policies to contain the virus, and the behavior of the larger public turned out to be wrong because the virus isn't exactly what it was thought to be, policies of containment were implemented, and the public _did_ change its behavior? Astounding. Maybe those experts actually knew what they were talking about and their initial models were wrong because we implemented quarantine measures and (enough of us) wore face masks in public and the success of those measures has been warped into criticism of them.


----------



## bykfixer

Mrs Fixers test came back negative. 😎


----------



## bigburly912

bykfixer said:


> Mrs Fixers test came back negative. [emoji41]



Glad to hear it brother


----------



## scout24

bykfixer said:


> Mrs Fixers test came back negative. 😎



👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻🥂🎊


----------



## Poppy

bykfixer said:


> Mrs Fixers test came back negative. 


Yahoo!! Time to celebrate with some ice cream!


----------



## bykfixer

At my quartlery check up the scale indicated I've done enough celebrating with ice cream Poppy. :fail:

Perhaps it's time for Sherbert instead. 
Was going to postpone the visit but got the good news before the appointment. 

BTW wear a mask or don't come in is the policy. No exceptions, no free masks. BYO or stay away. 
I'm cool with that.


----------



## Poppy

According to this video presentation by Dr John Cambell 
Sweden (which remained an open society) had about 9 times the number of deaths per population than each of her surrounding neighbors, Norway, Finland, Denmark.

Sweden will have survived economically better, due to not shutting down, not paying people to stay home, and not caring for serious cases, other than to give palliative care (read as morphine). Palliative care does not induce the sky rocking medical costs, incurred by other nations. 

The cost savings are achieved by a greatly increased death rate.


----------



## Whitelight1

I am in a hotspot and down here in Tampa, FL. most of us know we either have it, had it, or will get it. No big deal as none of us are getting off this earth alive. 

I like how it is here in New Tampa. Pretty much back to normal except some stupid places make you wear a mask. 

At least our weather warfare program has advanced since I was working in that department. 

Someone is getting a lot of precipitation.


----------



## PapaLumen

I've been watching Dr John since the start, he does a vid every day explaining things in basic understandable language. Take your vitamin D people.

p.s. I think the US is in for a rude awakening due to so many ignoring the risks. Numbers rising in most states. I think the next two weeks will prove this unfortunately.


----------



## KITROBASKIN

scout24 said:


> 壟



Wow, had to zoom in on these symbols in post #1368. Sure we could see the thumbs up but the other two looked like testicles and ovaries. Speaking of which, just wondering what this covid thing has done to birth rates, casual intimacy among strangers...

Still curious to see members here doing the 'told you so' and 'sky is falling' because infection rates have had an increase because we are trying to get back to our lives. Of course more people will get it, and more people will be stronger because of it. Curve still flattened right? Everyone's credibility is at stake here.


----------



## Dave D

Thought of a few of you today when I watched an episode of Good Mythical Morning, especially raggie33!!



Got to give that prune juice a go!! :thumbsup:


----------



## Poppy

KITROBASKIN said:


> <snip>
> 
> Still curious to see members here doing the 'told you so' and 'sky is falling' because infection rates have had an increase because we are trying to get back to our lives. Of course more people will get it, and more people will be stronger because of it. *Curve still flattened right? *Everyone's credibility is at stake here.


Curves vary from one state to another, and one region to another, within states.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/florida-coronavirus-cases.html

Florida's new case rate has quadrupled in the last few weeks. The death rate lags behind the new case rate by a few weeks to 6-8 weeks. Currently, Florida's death rate has not responded to the 4x increase in cases, but one would be foolish to think that the death rate will remain flat.

In NJ, both the death rate, and new case rate have remained flat, but we have just started to open up. Yesterday I was out and saw parking lots packed, and a considerable amount of more traffic. We shall see what a few weeks bring.


----------



## turbodog

Poppy said:


> According to this video presentation by Dr John Cambell
> Sweden (which remained an open society) had about 9 times the number of deaths per population than each of her surrounding neighbors, Norway, Finland, Denmark.
> 
> Sweden will have survived economically better, due to not shutting down, not paying people to stay home, and not caring for serious cases, other than to give palliative care (read as morphine). Palliative care does not induce the sky rocking medical costs, incurred by other nations.
> 
> The cost savings are achieved by a greatly increased death rate.
> 
> ...



Just looked at Sweden's numbers. As soon as our deaths increase 36% we will match their death per capita... at the rate we are going that won't take long either.

Even then, it's hard to make apples/apples comparison. They let it accelerate. This may mean worse is to come for them, or it may mean they simply condensed the actions into a smaller timeline... so their backend may not be as severe.


----------



## turbodog

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> Why are LEO laughing on an elevator a threat while screaming rioters are not?
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps the reason a lot of people are no longer donning masks is because they believe the experts have either been wrong or have been lying about COVID-19 from the start.
> 
> The experts told us:
> COVID-19 would kill two million Americans.
> The infection mortality rate was 3.4%.
> COVID-19 doesn't discriminate against age.
> It's still dangerous to send students to school.
> Asymptomatic carriers are killing Granny.
> Hospitals would be overwhelmed.
> We'd need tens of thousands of ventilators.
> Up to 80% of the population would need to be infected to reach herd-immunity.
> Lock-downs were the only way to stop the spread of the virus.
> The reproduction rate was slowed by lock-downs.
> Wearing a mask won't protect you.
> Wear a mask to protect yourself.
> Wear a mask to protect others.
> 
> The list goes on and on ....



The current numbers suggest at least 1.0-1.5M deaths in the US.
Case mortality is around 5% currently.
By asymptomatic, do you mean long term care workers? If so, then that has already happened.
NY had problems dealing with it, and other states will also.
Vents are less important, but we still are running out of PPE, steroids, sedatives, cremation/burial capacity, etc.
Herd is projected currently at 50-60%, so that's good.
Partly true, especially till the supply chain caught up.
True
Partly protected, depends on mask.
Partly protected, depends on mask.
Partly protected, depends on mask.


Afterthoughts... I don't know if you are railing against conflicting information generally, or these are your specific gripes. People forget that the USA is literally United STATES of America. All 50 still function independently to a large degree.

It's tragic, but expected that they do not have all the same plans, experiences, outcomes, and so on. Then the Federal gov't is in the mix, so it's chaotic at best. In addition, something that _most_ never thought would happen _IS_ happening.


----------



## Whitelight1

turbodog said:


> The current numbers suggest at least 1.0-1.5M deaths in the US.
> Case mortality is around 5% currently.
> By asymptomatic, do you mean long term care workers? If so, then that has already happened.
> NY had problems dealing with it, and other states will also.
> Vents are less important, but we still are running out of PPE, steroids, sedatives, cremation/burial capacity, etc.
> Herd is projected currently at 50-60%, so that's good.
> Partly true, especially till the supply chain caught up.
> True
> Partly protected, depends on mask.
> Partly protected, depends on mask.
> Partly protected, depends on mask.
> 
> 
> Afterthoughts... I don't know if you are railing against conflicting information generally, or these are your specific gripes. People forget that the USA is literally United STATES of America. All 50 still function independently to a large degree.
> 
> It's tragic, but expected that they do not have all the same plans, experiences, outcomes, and so on. Then the Federal gov't is in the mix, so it's chaotic at best. In addition, something that _most_ never thought would happen _IS_ happening.




Running out of sedatives? 

Obviously.... they didn't get in touch with me. Lol!!


----------



## turbodog

Whitelight1 said:


> Running out of sedatives?
> 
> Obviously.... they didn't get in touch with me. Lol!!



Yes. They are needed for patients on ventilators... you are knocked out.

Being on a vent non-sedated is traumatic to say the least.


----------



## bigburly912

turbodog said:


> Yes. They are needed for patients on ventilators... you are knocked out.
> 
> Being on a vent non-sedated is traumatic to say the least.



I thought that ended up being a non factor as early as May because the number of ventilators didn’t even come close to what they thought they would need and the drug shortage never came? This was news in early April or did something else happen? I’m not saying you are wrong but once again here we are with conflicting stories. I was almost certain this was all a speculation thing and then it got quiet because it never came to fruition. I’ll have to read up on it of course but where the hell does somebody go for good information anymore?


----------



## Monocrom

PhotonWrangler said:


> GAH. This is a worst case scenario for virus transmission. Talking spreads the virus farther than breathing and laughing spreads it even farther. Combine this with the tight space of an elevator and you're just asking for it.
> 
> Do some people think that wearing a mask makes you look weak? I think it makes you look very, very smart.




Unfortunately, it seems the best idea is to do what parents do with small children. You get children masks with cool designs on them so they'll want to wear them. For adults, make the masks a Fashion accessory that highlights their looks _*or*_ you make them Tacti-cool as Hell! Large black mask not good enough? Put flames on it! Make the masks Urban Camo, or just camo. Black and silver American flag with a thin blue line as one of the stripes. 

Might seem silly. But I'll openly admit that if someone gave me a very feminine floral-print mask because they thought I didn't have a mask at all.... I wouldn't wear it. Though if the situation was so bad that I didn't have any masks, I would. Needs must. Sadly, a huge chunk of folks don't get that.


----------



## Monocrom

bykfixer said:


> Food for thought on the LEO in elevators in New York thing:
> 
> If 400k New York folks have had it, at least 80% will be fine that would mean at least 320k folks. If 50% are over the thing that would be 200k. Being LEO and others in that field are first responders may have been early cases, could it be that those folks in elevators are batches of people who had it, recovered and can safely mingle with each other?
> Just a thought.
> 
> In my state lots of folks had it, got well and are now back at work like normal and are not a threat to the general population anymore. In my state the numbers are maybe 12% of what New York is dealing with. Yet most of our deaths are in nursing homes.
> 
> The first person working with Mrs Fixer to show positive got pretty sick for about 5 days but in week 2 is nearing symptom free. The second one, the one who was symptom free but tested negative is still largely symptom free and speaks of a stuffy nose after a second week. That was 9 days ago when Mrs Fixer was near her. Her cold like symptoms are getting better while we await test results. Her energy level has returned to normal. I'm still symptom free aside from the same allergy symptoms I've been dealing with off and on for a couple of months now. So we presume the test will come back negative.




It's good to hear that Mrs. Fixer tested negative.

The problem with those LEOs is that there is no immunity. 

There have been countless cases of individuals who got infected. Beat the infection. Developed the antibodies for the virus.... and then gotten re-infected! 

It's not like a seasonal flu where if you get it, and recover from it, you're immune until next flu season when it returns in a slightly different form. Just different enough to possibly catch it again. Either more than one strain of the virus was accidentally released into the public at the same time, or the virus is constantly mutating just enough that it can easily re-infect those who beat it once. Those LEOs should know better. I'm just thankful that all of them use an office on the other side of the building, so thankfully don't pass by where my post happens to be.


----------



## turbodog

bigburly912 said:


> I thought that ended up being a non factor as early as May because the number of ventilators didn’t even come close to what they thought they would need and the drug shortage never came? This was news in early April or did something else happen? I’m not saying you are wrong but once again here we are with conflicting stories. I was almost certain this was all a speculation thing and then it got quiet because it never came to fruition. I’ll have to read up on it of course but where the hell does somebody go for good information anymore?



Hospitals and drugs mfgs will adapt, but if patients trend too high...

https://www.idse.net/Covid-19/Artic...hortages-Still-Seen-in-Ventilator-Drugs/58778

I think everybody got complacent after NY got better... it just wasn't their turn yet.


----------



## bigburly912

Thanks! Good read there for anyone interested.


----------



## bykfixer

In some of the larger cities the numbers are still rising pretty steady. Not like they were at first. Some cases began weeks and weeks ago are folks still in bad shape as the new cases rise. So it's not a thing of beds being emptied as quickly as new dreadfully ill arrive. 

Are hospitals slowly becoming over whelmed instead of overwhelmed quickly like predicted? In some cities, probably so. Also remember that early on when elective surgeries were nixed some staff were let go for a time. Did those staff return? Are those elective surgery rooms covid capable? 

Years ago my pop was on a ventalator for a week and they had to keep him in a near coma to keep him from trying to rip out tubes and such. If he awoke at all he'd be grabbing at stuff even though he appeared to be napping. So yeah, they have to keep the really sick konked out. 

The whole thing is a helluva situation. A lot has been done wrong, a lot done right. Hopefully lessons learned will never have to be utilized again in our lifetime


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Monocrom said:


> It's good to hear that Mrs. Fixer tested negative.
> 
> The problem with those LEOs is that there is no immunity.
> 
> There have been countless cases of individuals who got infected. Beat the infection. Developed the antibodies for the virus.... and then gotten re-infected!
> 
> It's not like a seasonal flu where if you get it, and recover from it, you're immune until next flu season when it returns in a slightly different form. Just different enough to possibly catch it again. Either more than one strain of the virus was accidentally released into the public at the same time, or the virus is constantly mutating just enough that it can easily re-infect those who beat it once. Those LEOs should know better. I'm just thankful that all of them use an office on the other side of the building, so thankfully don't pass by where my post happens to be.


https://www.sciencenews.org/article/coronavirus-covid19-reinfection-immune-response


----------



## Monocrom

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> Why are LEO laughing on an elevator a threat while screaming rioters are not?
> 
> Perhaps the reason a lot of people are no longer donning masks is because they believe the experts have either been wrong or have been lying about COVID-19 from the start.
> 
> The experts told us:
> COVID-19 would kill two million Americans.
> The infection mortality rate was 3.4%.
> COVID-19 doesn't discriminate against age.
> It's still dangerous to send students to school.
> Asymptomatic carriers are killing Granny.
> Hospitals would be overwhelmed.
> We'd need tens of thousands of ventilators.
> Up to 80% of the population would need to be infected to reach herd-immunity.
> Lock-downs were the only way to stop the spread of the virus.
> The reproduction rate was slowed by lock-downs.
> Wearing a mask won't protect you.
> Wear a mask to protect yourself.
> Wear a mask to protect others.
> 
> The list goes on and on ....



True. Rioters are definitely a threat.

As for most of that list.... covid-19 is still here. Some of those predictions can still come true.

Let's see if there's another wave of rioting and looting. And thus, more mass infections. At this point, the virus will likely stick around at least as long as the last one did, about 100 years back. While I don't think we'll hit 2M dead, would not be surprised if the final tally was at least somewhat close to that.

They were right about it not discriminating against age. It did at first. So did the Spanish Flu about 100 years ago. Then it stopped discriminating. Same thing has happened with covid-19. I've mentioned this before. Young, physically fit 16 year-old girl with no immune issues, developed a very slight cough. Then she was gone. She was one of the first after all the cases of the very elderly or very young got infected.

There are still carriers out there who show little or no symptoms of infection. Sending children back to school would still pose a huge risk to them.

Carriers who show little or no signs of infection are out there. When whole nursing homes are being infected, the most likely cause is due to an infected individual coming to work who did so because they felt fine and thought they weren't infected. Or, a family member of one of the residents visiting. Again, because they thought they weren't infected.

Yes, hospitals were overwhelmed. At least the ones in the major cities. Our governor here in NY converted the Jacob Javitts Convention Center into a make-shift hospital. (He did a horrendously awful job of it, but he did it.) He started to convert the tennis courts in Flushing Queens into another make-shift hospital, and there were talks with the Catholic church to convert one of the larger churches in the city to yet another hospital. 

Yes, we need those ventilators. There is still a massively HUGE shortage of them in big cities. 

Herd immunity.... A very early prediction that didn't take into account that folks infected with the virus who beat it, can easily get re-infected! 

Only one nation has so far declared itself infection free.... New Zealand. How did they achieve this? Extremely strict lock-down rules which _ironically_ the average citizen actually obeyed for 2 weeks straight. Lock-downs clearly work, the problem is people (usually) don't. They have to go out, they feel cooped up. So that's what they do. They go out. Then they say lock-downs don't work. It's like saying cats always land on their feet. So you get a few knuckleheads who toss them off of a high-rise roof and then say, _"Nope! That's a myth."_

Mask ~ I will never forgive the doctors who early on spread that disgusting myth. That wearing a mask will not protect you. They did that because they didn't want the general public to panic, buy up N95 masks and hoard them. So they figured they'd lie and say the masks won't help. Thinking that if people don't buy up N95s to wear, then there will be enough to go around to hospital workers. Including themselves. Clearly not taking into account that there would be Pandemic Profiteers who would buy up massive amounts of N95s early on to sell to people at obscene mark-ups. I started wearing masks when an independent scientist found that the two best ways to slow the spread of the virus (though not entirely eliminate it) was mask wearing, and washing one's hands often with hot soapy water for at least 20 seconds. Slow it down long enough, the faster it'll burn itself out.

If everyone wears a mask, yes; you're protecting others. Ironically, my mask protects you from my germs. And yours protects me from your germs. When I exhale, my germs are traveling through the air towards you while we are conversing. And vice-versa. That doesn't happen if I'm wearing a mask, and you are too. Unless your mask has an exhalation valve on it. In which case, get the Hell away from me. No mask, don't even walk up to me. Under such circumstances, _then_ your mask gives you some protection as well. 

In my old neighborhood, we used to have a lot of Asian immigrants who walked around wearing surgical masks. I didn't understand why. I then learned that they did so not because they didn't want to breath in germs from other people around them. They did it so as not to spread their germs to others. That's why the mask I wear protects you from my germs. The one you wear protects me from yours.


----------



## Monocrom

Lynx_Arc said:


> https://www.sciencenews.org/article/coronavirus-covid19-reinfection-immune-response



Sorry, but one of my jobs is in healthcare. I'm going to go with what I've seen over a random study. Come to NYC. We have a database of infected bigger than some countries do. Patients have gotten re-infected. And I don't mean a fluke one or two of them that could be dismissed as a mistake made by a doctor or nurse.


----------



## Monocrom

turbodog said:


> I think everybody got complacent after NY got better... it just wasn't their turn yet.



Honestly, things have not gotten better here to any significant degree. Just a very small one. I'm surrounded by people who just want to pretend we can get back to business as usual. Back to normal. Our mayor plans on opening up more businesses come Monday. Don't be surprised if we get hit with a new wave of infected, here.


----------



## turbodog

Monocrom said:


> True. Rioters are definitely a threat.
> 
> ...
> 
> Let's see if there's another wave of rioting and looting. And thus, more mass infections.
> ...
> Young, physically fit 16 year-old girl with no immune issues, developed a very slight cough. Then she was gone. She was one of the first after all the cases of the very elderly or very young got infected.
> 
> ...




The consensus is still out on reinfection. Best things I have read say that the _supposed_ reinfected person was never over the initial infection so they popped positive again.

Yes, there are always outliers, which this girl was. She could have had an underlying complicating factor that was not diagnosed due to her young age.

The _trends_ are that reinfection does not happen, and that young are practically unaffected.

So far...

IIRC, scientists are tracking somewhere between 3 and 8 strains domestically and worldwide.

That said, viruses tend to get weaker as time goes on, so mutation is not a for sure problem.


----------



## turbodog

Monocrom said:


> Honestly, things have not gotten better here to any significant degree. Just a very small one. I'm surrounded by people who just want to pretend we can get back to business as usual. Back to normal. Our mayor plans on opening up more businesses come Monday. Don't be surprised if we get hit with a new wave of infected, here.



Stuff can't stay closed for as long as this thing will be around. Entire classes of businesses are already going under, and that's NOW, while PPP funds are still in play.

bus companies
travel
sports
movies
etc

We stayed shutdown long enough for the supply chain to sort of catch up. We've got to move forward.

It's a big ole crap sandwich... only question is which end you want to take a bite from.


----------



## turbodog

Monocrom said:


> Sorry, but one of my jobs is in healthcare. I'm going to go with what I've seen over a random study. Come to NYC. We have a database of infected bigger than some countries do. Patients have gotten re-infected. And I don't mean a fluke one or two of them that could be dismissed as a mistake made by a doctor or nurse.



NY lit up first. This is also during the time which there were bad test kits in play. False positives and negatives abounded. So much so that the bad kits were pulled from the market, contributing to the shortage of kits.

Not trying to make this personal, but you're believing your anecdotal evidence over a actual, legit study? You realize how that sounds? And coming from someone 'in healthcare'?

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2766097

"To date, no human reinfections with SARS-CoV-2 have been confirmed. Evidence of reinfection typically requires culture-based documentation of a new infection following clearance of the preceding infection or evidence of reinfection with a molecularly distinct form of the same virus."

Now where are my leeches....


----------



## Poppy

Monocrom said:


> It's good to hear that Mrs. Fixer tested negative.
> 
> The problem with those LEOs is that there is no immunity.
> 
> There have been countless cases of individuals who got infected. Beat the infection. Developed the antibodies for the virus.... and then gotten re-infected!
> 
> <SNIP>.





Monocrom said:


> <SNIP>
> 
> Herd immunity.... A very early prediction that *didn't take into account that folks infected with the virus who beat it, can easily get re-infected! *
> 
> <SNIP>





turbodog said:


> NY lit up first. This is also during the time which there were bad test kits in play. False positives and negatives abounded. So much so that the bad kits were pulled from the market, contributing to the shortage of kits.
> 
> Not trying to make this personal, but you're believing your anecdotal evidence over a actual, legit study? You realize how that sounds? And coming from someone 'in healthcare'?
> 
> https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2766097
> 
> *"To date, no human reinfections with SARS-CoV-2 have been confirmed.* Evidence of reinfection typically requires culture-based documentation of a new infection following clearance of the preceding infection or evidence of reinfection with a molecularly distinct form of the same virus."
> 
> Now where are my leeches....



turbodog,
Thank you for your posts, with links to credible scientific information!

monocrom,
The repetition of stating that there is no immunity, does not make it true.

“Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth”, is a law of propaganda often attributed to the Nazi Joseph Goebbels.

I think it was Dave D who first posted a link to a video by Dr John Cambell discussing and explaining a Korean study of why there were reports of re-infections, but in reality they were false positives. This led to the conclusion that there was no evidence of re-infections.

There is a belief that upon recovery, there IS immunity, the jury it still out, regarding how long it lasts. One of the many treatments attempting to treat this disease is to use antibodies from others who have recovered.


----------



## Poppy

Monocrom said:


> Yes, hospitals were overwhelmed. At least the ones in the major cities. Our governor here in NY converted the Jacob Javitts Convention Center into a make-shift hospital. (He did a horrendously awful job of it, but he did it.) He started to convert the tennis courts in Flushing Queens into another make-shift hospital, and there were talks with the Catholic church to convert one of the larger churches in the city to yet another hospital.
> 
> Yes, we need those ventilators. There is still a massively HUGE shortage of them in big cities.


Certainly one is entitled to his opinion.
IMO, Governor Cuomo, getting help from the Federal government did a remarkable job at converting the Jacob Javits Center into an overflow hospital, in just a couple of weeks. This was the first in the country, and became the blue-print for other areas, and States, to create additional rapidly deployed hospitals as needed.

The Hospital ship was first going to be only overflow, but was converted to accept covid patients, which reduced its capacity to 50%.
Javits which was to be overflow, was also converted to accept and treat covid patients. IIRC the Javits is reported to have treated nearly 1,100 patients, and the hospital ship, less than 100.

Regarding a HUGH shortage of ventilators, I can't speak to that, but New York, about a month ago sent 400 of them to Massachusetts, and other states have returned them to the National stockpile. It is my understanding that Ford has gone back to making trucks instead of ventilators.

As reported May 11, 2020
https://detroit.cbslocal.com/2020/05/11/ford-gm-still-under-contract-to-produce-ventilators/

Ford and GM are still under contract to produce 30,000 - 50,000 ventilators. 
Experts say we are overproducing them, and that they will be shipped overseas.


----------



## scout24

Ford and GM aren't the only ones producing them as fast as they can make them. There are several others. And if we're keeping people here employed making a quality product and sending them overseas, good for us.


----------



## bykfixer

Amen Scout


----------



## Poppy

scout24 said:


> Ford and GM aren't the only ones producing them as fast as they can make them. There are several others. And if we're keeping people here employed making a quality product and sending them overseas, good for us.


Now more than ever I am thinking... Buy American!

Yesterday, I picked up a small window AC unit. I went to a couple of big box stores, and they had off brand, and GE brand units. Pretty sure that GE is made in China, and that their ratings are not what they used to be, I didn't want to buy GE. LG made by an ally (Korea) was my first pick, but not to be found. I bought a Toshiba unit, thinking Made in Japan. Wrong! Made in China!

Very sad state of affairs!
:mecry:


----------



## Monocrom

turbodog said:


> The consensus is still out on reinfection. Best things I have read say that the _supposed_ reinfected person was never over the initial infection so they popped positive again.



Hope you don't mind, I'm going to try to reply to as many points as I can in one post. Just for the sake of convenience. 

*Re-infection ~* This should be much easier to determine. Considering a person is quarantined in a hospital for 14 days and then recovers, safe to say by then the virus has run its course. When that same person comes back again, after those 14 days; that's re-infection. It amazes me that scientists and doctors at this point in time can't come to a consensus. The way things are, I doubt that'll happen until after the virus has completely burned itself out and someone bothers to check what admittance records exist. 

*The 16 year-old girl ~* They did autopsy the girl's body after her death. That's how they determined she was infected. But they found no underlying immune issues. And, about 100 years ago, the Spanish Flu did the very same thing. After awhile, the young and physically fit got sick and died as well. I hate to think the number of young people who are out there, taking risks, taking chances all because they think they're good. Or, if they get it, no big deal. 

*Strains and Mutations ~* Well, that is depressing to hear that there could be as many as eight different strains. As far as mutation, it sure as heck doesn't appear as though covid-19 is getting weaker. Ironically, a decrease in the number of infected in a major city is due to the fact that large chunks of infected are now deceased. Thus, no longer counted among the living infected. 

*Re-opening Businesses ~* Had most folks actually self-quarantined, this wouldn't be an issue now. It's not an easy problem to solve. But this just isn't the time for going back to business as usual. What good is opening up stores if customers get infected, a good chunk of them die. Or, recover but with severe lung issues. And about 1/3 of those who recover now have severe kidney issues to boot. Both of which will last a lifetime. Again, I'm not saying it's easy. But given the options, better to suffer financially for awhile longer than the alternative. Though granted, I'm in the minority on that. 

*The study ~* Yes, I believe my own two eyes (what I've seen) over a study. How does that sound to others? I really don't care. Okay, a group conducted a study. So I should believe the study over my two lying eyes? I'm sorry, but no. I won't go into the details of my healthcare job. Some members of CPF already know what I do. When you see what's going on out there. When you see a clear trend. Then it's real. You see people getting sent home. Having recovered. Feeling perfectly fine. Then you see the same faces returning a week or two later, that looks awfully like re-infection to me. Especially when it keeps happening and especially if it's closer to two weeks. If that's not re-infection, that's a heck of a trick! So does the virus pretend to be dormant for several days in a row before flaring up again, or is a patient re-infected? That's a heck of a horrifying trick if it's the former, instead of the latter. Maybe if the C-virus was developed by Umbrella Corp., I'd think it was capable of that. More likely than not, the patients are getting re-infected. 

Oh, and of course, no study has ever been done by individuals who had an agenda to push. Every single study is done by those looking for completely objective answers with only noble goals in mind. (Obvious sarcasm.)

*Leech Therapy ~* As for your leeches?.... Likely being used in modern leech therapy (hirudotherapy). 
It's actual genuinely very fascinating. Turns out there are actual medical benefits found in leech saliva. And I'm being honest. It really is something worth looking into.


----------



## bykfixer

Friedrich window units are US made. But they are the last still doing it. 
The Friedrich are "comercial grade" so they are pricey. 
Speed Queen still have US made appliances as well. 
Both companies are still family owned. 

Corona virus, was apparently not US made.


----------



## Poppy

bykfixer said:


> Friedrich window units are US made. But they are the last still doing it.
> The Friedrich are "comercial grade" so they are pricey.
> Speed Queen still have US made appliances as well.
> Both companies are still family owned.
> 
> Corona virus, was apparently not US made.


Thank you sir.
Yes I read about that this morning.
Amana is also a US made and owned brand.


----------



## PhotonWrangler

How can anyone legitimitely question the existence of this pandemic when virtually everyone knows someone who got it, and we have photos of refrigerated trucks acting as makeshift morgues outside of hospitals?


----------



## RedLED

bykfixer said:


> Friedrich window units are US made. But they are the last still doing it.
> The Friedrich are "comercial grade" so they are pricey.
> Speed Queen still have US made appliances as well.
> Both companies are still family owned.
> 
> Corona virus, was apparently not US made.


I always wonder what parts are Chinese? I doubt the electronics are from here.


----------



## turbodog

Monocrom said:


> Hope you don't mind, I'm going to try to reply to as many points as I can in one post. Just for the sake of convenience.
> ...



I think you're half catching what I am saying or half responding.

Most people recover or are non-transmissable after 14 days, but not all. And I'd say there is a consensus when the journal of the american medical association declares no confirmed cases of reinfection. I assure you that your state's dept of health and the CDC will be keenly interested in your 'reinfected' cases. Do you think you are the only one that's supposedly seeing these and that they have not been investigated. In addition, in the JAMA article I referenced, they specifically mention viral fragments being present and detectable for longer than the 14 days.

You say underlying 'immune' issues. Great, but she could have passed from kidney, liver, heart, etc issues. One case does not make a trend.

If you are just now aware of 3-8 active strains then perhaps you are not as in the loop as you perceive?

I call BS on the 1/3 having kidney issues. In fact, hasn't that been covered in this thread already? Of the 6 close family members I have in medical field, NONE are reporting kidney observations. And that's in 7 hospitals.

There are multiple reasons why anyone can misunderstand what they observe, or come to the wrong conclusion about the cause(s).

Of the 6 family in healthcare, none are reporting reinfection across 7 directly observed hospitals and an untold number of hospitals they deal with. We've got 2 MDs, 3 RNs, and 1 MHS who happens to run a large lab that directly tests for covid antibodies, nasal swabs, and all other manner of blood, specimins, etc testing.

However, that said, if the JAMA confirmed reinfection, in direct opposition to all what I am 'in the loop' on, I would believe them.


----------



## turbodog

PhotonWrangler said:


> How can anyone legitimitely question the existence of this pandemic when virtually everyone knows someone who got it, and we have photos of refrigerated trucks acting as makeshift morgues outside of hospitals?



I shake my head a lot lately...

If you want a better understanding of _why_ people are acting the way they are I recommend a book I'm reading 'the death of expertise'. It sheds light on a lot of things. Might not make you feel better, but can answer some questions for you maybe...


----------



## Poppy

This POST is so rife with misinformation, and or just plain WRONG information, I can't keep myself from commenting.



Monocrom said:


> Hope you don't mind, I'm going to try to reply to as many points as I can in one post. Just for the sake of convenience.
> 
> *Re-infection ~* This should be much easier to determine. Considering a person is quarantined in a hospital for 14 days and then recovers, safe to say by then the virus has run its course. When that same person comes back again, after those 14 days; that's re-infection.* It amazes me that scientists and doctors at this point in time can't come to a consensus.* The way things are, I doubt that'll happen until after the virus has completely burned itself out and someone bothers to check what admittance records exist.


They HAVE come to a consensus. Re-infection does not occur.
They don't know how long immunity will last, yet.



> *The 16 year-old girl ~* They did autopsy the girl's body after her death. That's how they determined she was infected. But they found no underlying immune issues. And, about 100 years ago, the Spanish Flu did the very same thing. After awhile, the young and physically fit got sick and died as well. I hate to think the number of young people who are out there, taking risks, taking chances all because they think they're good. Or, if they get it, no big deal.


It is frightening that the young are not inherently immune.


> *Strains and Mutations ~* Well, that is depressing to hear that there could be as many as eight different strains. As far as mutation, it sure as heck doesn't appear as though covid-19 is getting weaker. Ironically,* a decrease in the number of infected in a major city is due to the fact that large chunks of infected are now deceased*. Thus, no longer counted among the living infected.



Studies in NYC have shown that 21-30% of 9,000,000 (~ 2,000,000 ) people have been exposed, and infected to the point that they tested positive for covid-19 antibodies.
In NYC there were about 200,000 confirmed cases, (most of the confirmed cases were of people with a fever and in respiratory distress, or they were not allowed to get tested, due to a shortage of tests) and 16,000 deaths.
The overall death rate is about 0.8%
All other experts state that the decrease in infection rate (and the overall number of deaths) is due to the "stay at home" and social distancing. 




> *Re-opening Businesses ~* Had most folks actually self-quarantined, this wouldn't be an issue now. It's not an easy problem to solve. But this just isn't the time for going back to business as usual. What good is opening up stores if customers get infected, a good chunk of them die. Or, recover but with severe lung issues. *And about 1/3 of those who recover now have severe kidney issues to boot*. Both of which will last a lifetime. Again, I'm not saying it's easy. But given the options, *better to suffer financially for awhile longer than the alternative*. Though granted, I'm in the minority on that.



1/3 rd have kidney issues, has been stated in the past, and was proven mathematically wrong.

As stated earlier in this thread, those who have continued to work and collect a regular paycheck, perhaps with overtime, are very quick to say, everyone should stay locked in regardless of the financial impact.


----------



## turbodog

To further complicate stuff, you've got places like this purposefully putting out false information.

I hope this turns out to be false, but given that 4 nurses are on the lawsuit against their hospital for falsifying test results... I doubt it.

https://www.redandblack.com/athensnews/nurses-file-lawsuit-against-athens-hospital-for-falsifying-covid-19-test-results/article_6f5ce7c0-b2a6-11ea-8177-e773c881a160.html


----------



## turbodog

For a bit of _good_ news...

Nursing home. Zero infections.

https://www.baltimoresun.com/opinion/columnists/dan-rodricks/bs-md-rodricks-0619-20200618-re2obahhbzbddojazrkf65gdoq-story.html


----------



## archimedes

Yes, plenty of misinformation out there, unfortunately ...

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/202...onavirus-papers-over-data-integrity-questions


----------



## bykfixer

I think I read somewhere this week that there was a day in New York with zero deaths from covid-19, I believe it said one day this week.

Thanks for the article Arch.


----------



## tatasal

bykfixer said:


> I think I read somewhere this week that there was a day in New York with zero deaths from covid-19, I believe it said one day this week.



Not only this news if true, but what is more important to me would be Zero new infections, even for a day, and that would mean a lot.


----------



## PhotonWrangler

turbodog said:


> I shake my head a lot lately...
> 
> If you want a better understanding of _why_ people are acting the way they are I recommend a book I'm reading 'the death of expertise'. It sheds light on a lot of things. Might not make you feel better, but can answer some questions for you maybe...




Does it mention the Dunning-Krueger effect? It seems that the internet has been making this much worse, especially social media.


----------



## raggie33

im just happy no one is having a yuge event with no one wearing a mask! that would be a nightmare


----------



## PhotonWrangler

raggie33 said:


> im just happy no one is having a yuge event with no one wearing a mask! that would be a nightmare



Oh yes, bigly.


----------



## StarHalo

raggie33 said:


> im just happy no one is having a yuge event with no one wearing a mask! that would be a nightmare



Well there was an event in the dead center of the region where no one wants to wear a mask, and it turns out the idea is not as popular as some would have you believe:


----------



## turbodog

PhotonWrangler said:


> Does it mention the Dunning-Krueger effect? It seems that the internet has been making this much worse, especially social media.



Yes. Quite a good book BTW. Google's practice of showing you articles you 'like' further reinforces confirmation bias. This will not end well.


----------



## turbodog

archimedes said:


> Yes, plenty of misinformation out there, unfortunately ...
> 
> https://www.sciencemag.org/news/202...onavirus-papers-over-data-integrity-questions



A side effect of all this is that governments, businesses, citizens, etc are moving fast, faster than we normally would. So I do expect some false starts and all.

That said, if I read the article correctly, due to confidentiality concerns, the data source can't be fully verified. So, by definition, the article is withdrawn. It does not automatically make it inaccurate. It's more like when a judge instructs a jury to ignore evidence they have already heard...


----------



## archimedes

There might be a little more to it than that, but I'll leave it there.


----------



## ledbetter

StarHalo said:


> Well there was an event in the dead center of the region where no one wants to wear a mask, and it turns out the idea is not as popular as some would have you believe:


Yes, that would have been ideal, a realization of dangerous practices and listening to scientists, but that’s not what happened. Many youths online reserved tickets and failed to show, leaving trumpeters with egg on their faces.


----------



## turbodog

archimedes said:


> There might be a little more to it than that, but I'll leave it there.



I checked the underlying/linked article, the one about the complaint. FYI, WHO is resuming testing hydroxychlorinewhateveritis.

The longer, more detailed article is at:
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/06/mysterious-company-s-coronavirus-papers-top-medical-journals-may-be-unraveling

After reading it... dunno. Strange evidence both ways... their paper agrees with a VA study. However, they should have controlled for severity of symptoms in the study.

There was a concurrent study in the UK that was halted. Their results so far were no significant effects on covid... no word on mortality consequences.

The drug is on the list of WHO essential drugs and has been around a long time.

The other takeaway I note is the supposed covid helping of ivermectin. If so, that's very good. It's cheap and widespread drug.


----------



## bykfixer

StarHalo said:


> Well there was an event in the dead center of the region where no one wants to wear a mask, and it turns out the idea is not as popular as some would have you believe:



To show a photo of an arena several hours before an event and imply it was not a sellout out crowd is so…… CNN like there uh Tokyo Rose……good job.
Yup there were some empty seats, up top but the photo was taken hours before the floor filled up. 
Many stayed away due to the raucus crowds outside after watching all of the unrest in the nation every night. Some could not get in due to the raucus crowds outside. Many law abiding citizens were fearing the mobs. And yes a whole lot of people reserved seats with no intention of going but did not want others who did want to go to not have a chance. 
And some chose to wear masks.


----------



## Poppy

I don't get it. 

WHY would ANYONE choose to go out of his way (perhaps travel for hours) and risk contracting a potentially fatal disease, and possibly bring it home to one's family, and circle of friends, to what end? Be a cheerleader at a political rally?


----------



## bykfixer

Same reason as folks gathering to walk down city streets locked arm and arm, or attend a nascar race or go to church, or any other event that causes folks to feel more normal again. Me personally? I wouldn't go to any event right now where I cannot double my 3' circle when around people I do not know. I'm still not doing dine in etc. 

It's kinda strange though that according to a large segment of the press mobs pulling down statues does not breed a virus spread but a campaign rally seems to?

It's like that thing where conrona virus never made it to Wal Mart but plagued every barber shop and shoe store……

Happy Fathers Day everybody. Ah, ah, ah, 6' apart and all that.


----------



## Poppy

I suppose that going to a rally can be likened to going to a concert.

I don't know... the personal experience of "being there"?

Regarding mobs gathering in protests, there has been quite a bit of concern that such gatherings will cause increases in the transmission of the virus.

Although I have not been following the news as much as before, aren't big spectator events, such as nascar, professional sports, concerts, and such for the most part still limited to NO_spectators_at the event?

I think Churches and other houses of worship in NJ are limited to 20% capacity.


----------



## Poppy

bykfixer said:


> Same reason as folks gathering to walk down city streets locked arm and arm, or attend a nascar race or go to church, or any other event that causes folks to feel more normal again.* Me personally? I wouldn't go to any event right now where I cannot double my 3' circle when around people I do not know. I'm still not doing dine in etc. *
> 
> It's kinda strange though that according to a large segment of the press mobs pulling down statues does not breed a virus spread but a campaign rally seems to?
> 
> It's like that thing where conrona virus never made it to Wal Mart but plagued every barber shop and shoe store……
> 
> Happy Fathers Day everybody. Ah, ah, ah, 6' apart and all that.


Ah my friend, I am glad to see that you added, your comment above, while I was responding.

I agree. I am still keeping my distance.

As I mentioned earlier, I went to the Home Depot, and saw that the parking lot was packed. I just drove on through. I can come back at another time. Crowded areas for me? No way!

Regarding going to a rally? I can find better, safer means of entertainment.


----------



## bykfixer

I watched it on my celphone, the parts I didn't sleep through. I just wanted to see folks cheering for America right now in these turmultuous times. I understand why some are stir crazy but I was still going to work everyday while many worked from home for months. Working outdoors makes it easier to avoid the virus versus indoors in recirculated air. Not that it hasn't spread in my industry, but that is likely from people packed into crew cab pickup trucks or vans carrying multiple workers around. 

Edit: nascar races have "limited" numbers of fans alkowed. I suspect baseball won't happen on the pro level this year (at all). I'm not sure what allowble church capacity is in my state. But most in my community are doing parking lot or outdoor services. End edit. 

Typical grocery trip saw probably 80% wearing masks in the store. If you want mac n cheese in my community this week you have to make your own. No box kind available, but plenty of Ramen noodles and rice. Plenty of toilet paper but no paper towels. The paper towels missing has been the case the last few times. Steak is still higher than before but the less expensive cuts were plentiful this week. 

The irony at the check out counter was "the Enquirer" had stories of unrest and how much has been infiltrated with people bent on creating chaos while the main stream press (on both sides) says "oh those are just peaceful people there" as an unruly crowd of enthisiasts are throwing rocks at law enforcement in the back ground. The paper that gave us "ten ways to know your neighbors came here on a space craft" are the only ones telling both sides of the story. So we chatted with people as we did our shopping, staying 6' away and "you go ahead on past me" was the theme today whenever an unmasked person was encountered. At 9:30 this morning there were no panic buyers, no angry people or anything unusual outside of some choices people make with face coverings. Most had the light blue disposable kind but a few had designer stuff like a Nike swoop or a sports team. My favorite is always the gal whose mask has her grandparents photo on it. 

Anything hand sanitizer was still out but plenty of cold and flu stuff was back. It was nice to see dishwasher powder in good supply again as well. Maybe because it's popular this time of year but there was a giant hole in the barbecue sauce section. That was a first.


----------



## scout24

We did "dine in" at an actual restaurant on Friday evening with another couple. I'll admit, I was a bit anxious. It was wierd after five months... Everyone was in good spirits, it was nice.


----------



## Monocrom

turbodog said:


> I think you're half catching what I am saying or half responding.



Oh no, I get exactly what you're saying and I've given you full and honest responses. As I will again. Yes, you are correct. There are tons of individuals who recover or are non-transmittable after two full weeks. And as you said, "but not all." We agree. Thing is, if the virus survives for only two full weeks, what is accounting for that "not all" number? Even if we included doctor error, it still isn't going to account for all cases. The obvious answer is re-infection. 

Now, getting back to a point I brought up previously, not all studies are done objectively. I think we can both agree that the CDC is not made up of morons. So, why did they release that official video on their channel in which they showed how to make an improvised mask out of a cotton bandana; and gave the DIY project their recommendation. Even though, anyone with knowledge of how viruses are transmitted would instantly realize that such a recommendation would provide very little protection to the general public. Why?....

To prevent mass panic. Not to present factual information to the general public. But to prevent panicking on a National level. Virus hit California and Florida hard, before coming up to NYC. By the time it got here, N95s were nowhere to be found. Walking through my neighborhood, I overheard people getting very upset and scared that they couldn't find masks at even obscene mark-ups to buy. So, if you're the CDC, you tell folks that a two layer cotton mask DIYed from a 100% cotton bandana will absolutely protect them from getting infected. 

Which we both know isn't true. WHO knows it too. Which is why they released those revised guidelines. (Personally, I still say a 100% cotton mask is fine _*if*_ it has a filter pocket with excellent filter material in it, such as a PM2.5 filter.) However, at the start of the pandemic in America, such advice from the CDC was absolutely needed to prevent rioting in the streets. What do you think is going to happen if a scientific study were to be carried out, objectively; and it discovered that re-infection is indeed what is accounting for that "not all" that you mentioned above? 

What good would come of it? All that talk of _herd immunity_ goes right out the window. People panic, they freak out. I'm not surprised one bit that that official study has concluded no confirmed cases of re-infection. Why would they confirm what others have already seen? To cause mass panic and chaos in the streets among the general public? Yeah, that would be brilliant. 

That 16 year-old girl is not one isolated case. There have been countless others who were physically fit and healthy who caught the virus and died. It's not just going after the very elderly or the very young. That trend during this pandemic passed more than awhile ago. The physically fit with zero immune issues are dying too. It happened 100 years ago with the Spanish Flu. It's happening now. 

In fairness, if you think that 1/3 of infected patients who develop lifelong kidney issues is BS, then perhaps you too are not as in the loop as you _yourself_ perceive. Especially since I've already dealt with that denial by posting links in this very topic that show it's true. 

Six family members in seven hospitals going by what they each perceive.... with their own two eyes. Safe to say they'd trust their anecdotal evidence over any sort of study presented to them. Can't blame them for doing that. 

Definitely agree with you. There are indeed multiple reasons why a person can misunderstand what they see or come to the wrong conclusions about causes. So it's very important to remain truly open-minded to realistic probabilities instead of just dismissing them outright and pretending no such cases exist. Such as in a particular study, for example. 

Again, when I see individuals being released at the full two week mark, clearly having recovered; only to then return numerous days later, infected.... I tend to go with the most likely cause. And the most likely one is re-infection. Again, we're not talking a couple of individuals. When something keeps happening over and over again, then a clear trend has presented itself. At the same time, I know that it's far from likely to ever be confirmed as re-infection by ANY medical association. But for a study or an organization to simply outright dismiss a realistic probability as "non-existent" is worrying. Shows a lack of open-mindedness on their part, unfortunately.


----------



## turbodog

bykfixer said:


> To show a photo of an arena several hours before an event and imply it was not a sellout out crowd is so…… CNN like there uh Tokyo Rose……good job.
> Yup there were some empty seats, up top but the photo was taken hours before the floor filled up.
> Many stayed away due to the raucus crowds outside after watching all of the unrest in the nation every night. Some could not get in due to the raucus crowds outside. Many law abiding citizens were fearing the mobs. And yes a whole lot of people reserved seats with no intention of going but did not want others who did want to go to not have a chance.
> And some chose to wear masks.



I did some digging. Found the best source I could find, a report by Tulsa Fire Dept's fire marshall.

20k capacity

6,200 turnout

https://www.forbes.com/sites/andrewsolender/2020/06/21/turnout-at-trumps-tulsa-rally-was-just-under-6200a-fraction-of-the-venues-19200-capacity/#108e4ce41fed

If someone buys a ticket and does not go, it doesn't prevent others from showing up. The 'ticket surge' screwed with the event's stats but did not prevent valid attendees from getting a seat.


----------



## Monocrom

bykfixer said:


> Same reason as folks gathering to walk down city streets locked arm and arm, or attend a nascar race or go to church, or any other event that causes folks to feel more normal again. Me personally? I wouldn't go to any event right now where I cannot double my 3' circle when around people I do not know. I'm still not doing dine in etc.
> 
> It's kinda strange though that according to a large segment of the press mobs pulling down statues does not breed a virus spread but a campaign rally seems to?
> 
> It's like that thing where conrona virus never made it to Wal Mart but plagued every barber shop and shoe store……
> 
> Happy Fathers Day everybody. Ah, ah, ah, 6' apart and all that.




Wal-Mart sells food. Sad to say, but in some parts of America, if a poverty-stricken family wants to eat decent meals; they go to Wal-Mart. Not because they want to, but because it's literally their only option. 

New hair-cut or brand new shoes aren't necessities.


----------



## turbodog

Monocrom said:


> ... There are tons of individuals who recover or are non-transmittable after two full weeks. And as you said, "but not all." We agree. Thing is, if the virus survives for only two full weeks, what is accounting for that "not all" number? Even if we included doctor error, it still isn't going to account for all cases. The obvious answer is re-infection.
> 
> ...



I mean that some take longer to recover. Not a conspiracy. Just like some people get over a cold quickly, and other people take 2-3x as long.

If reinfection was happening as you say, then we would see similar results worldwide. This is not happening.

I'm getting results daily from a large testing lab that covers ~20 feeder hospitals and an untold number of clinics/etc. ZERO reinfection cases.

That said, if JAMA or other credible source confirmed reinfection, I would believe it.


----------



## Monocrom

bykfixer said:


> Anything hand sanitizer was still out but plenty of cold and flu stuff was back. It was nice to see dishwasher powder in good supply again as well. Maybe because it's popular this time of year but there was a giant hole in the barbecue sauce section. That was a first.



Home Depots in my neck of the woods has two different types of hand-sanitizer. A large jug of effective 80% alcohol based, and a slightly smaller container that looks suspiciously like organic/alternative hand-sanitizer. Best to completely steer clear of that one. The jug is surprisingly not too obscenely marked-up.


----------



## Monocrom

turbodog said:


> I mean that some take longer to recover. Not a conspiracy. Just like some people get over a cold quickly, and other people take 2-3x as long.
> 
> If reinfection was happening as you say, then we would see similar results worldwide. This is not happening.
> 
> I'm getting results daily from a large testing lab that covers ~20 feeder hospitals and an untold number of clinics/etc. ZERO reinfection cases.
> 
> That said, if JAMA or other credible source confirmed reinfection, I would believe it.




I agree with you that some do take longer. It is indeed odd though when seemingly fully recovered individuals return. But I'm willing to be open-minded, and genuinely hope I'm wrong about re-infection. As that would mean a vaccine would be easier to create. Did not mean to imply that there are evil conspiracies out there. I meant it when I said I understood why the CDC released their DIY mask video. Mass panic in the streets would be just as bad, if not worse for public safety as the virus itself. Unfortunately, _sometimes_ it's necessary to lie to the general public to keep them from panicking. I truly hate saying that. But it's true.


----------



## bykfixer

turbodog said:


> I did some digging. Found the best source I could find, a report by Tulsa Fire Dept's fire marshall.
> 
> 20k capacity
> 
> 6,200 turnout
> 
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/andrew...on-of-the-venues-19200-capacity/#108e4ce41fed
> 
> If someone buys a ticket and does not go, it doesn't prevent others from showing up. The 'ticket surge' screwed with the event's stats but did not prevent valid attendees from getting a seat.



I read the Forbes article too. Lots of stories by xyz, br549 or other largely slanted organizations I just skip over anymore, including the one that ryhmes with box. It's just hard to find truth anymore. Forbes is better than most in my view at just stating facts. A lot of my friends watch cnbc and fox business to guage their portolio so they can learn about up coming trends. Often they are pretty accurate as well. Raw facts are boring though so most scroll past those. 

My point about Wal Mart or other box stores was not to denegrate people who get their supplies there. It was more to point out there are often large gathering there where a shoe store has a few people all spread apart. Early in the pandemic my local Wal Mart literally had about 1000 people in there panic buying. Same with the Target. Shoe Carnival had oh, about 8 people. My local WalMart right now likely has a few hundred people inside. Shoe Carnival? About 8 people. They get crowded at back to school time.


----------



## raggie33

i got a dang dr appt tuesday i know they want to check my blood work but i dont wanna go but i skiped so many appts. i frigin hate going to docters evenb4 covid


----------



## RedLED

raggie33 said:


> i got a dang dr appt tuesday i know they want to check my blood work but i dont wanna go but i skiped so many appts. i frigin hate going to docters evenb4 covid


Me too, Chief, Me too.


----------



## turbodog

bykfixer said:


> I read the Forbes article too. Lots of stories by xyz, br549 or other largely slanted organizations I just skip over anymore, including the one that ryhmes with box. It's just hard to find truth anymore. Forbes is better than most in my view at just stating facts. A lot of my friends watch cnbc and fox business to guage their portolio so they can learn about up coming trends. Often they are pretty accurate as well. Raw facts are boring though so most scroll past those.
> 
> My point about Wal Mart or other box stores was not to denegrate people who get their supplies there. It was more to point out there are often large gathering there where a shoe store has a few people all spread apart. Early in the pandemic my local Wal Mart literally had about 1000 people in there panic buying. Same with the Target. Shoe Carnival had oh, about 8 people. My local WalMart right now likely has a few hundred people inside. Shoe Carnival? About 8 people. They get crowded at back to school time.



You have to sort of get an aggregate view. I will check cnn and fox for the same story to sort of get a left/right view. At the end of the day I will jump to routers and apnews for facts. Sometimes I will hit bloomberg off and on.

With so many family in healthcare I have access to some things that others don't. We really could use some random testing across the US, nasal and blood, to give an idea of how far along we are toward herd immunity. Given the steady increase in numbers we clearly are not there yet. I've got kids in school/college that I am trying to make fall plans for.

I've been tracking stats since day1. After some initial adjustments, my projected cases (at least in my state) are within ~200 of actual for the past 29 days w/o having to tweak my projection values. It's scary how closely it's tracking to actual, or scary how close actual is tracking projected.

Point is... zero evidence it's dropping off. All evidence it's still chugging along. The curious thing is that the numbers have not spiked as portions of the state reopened. So why not? And where are the 'base' of new infections coming from then?


----------



## PhotonWrangler

Monocrom said:


> Home Depots in my neck of the woods has two different types of hand-sanitizer. A large jug of effective 80% alcohol based, and a slightly smaller container that looks suspiciously like organic/alternative hand-sanitizer. Best to completely steer clear of that one. The jug is surprisingly not too obscenely marked-up.



It's getting a little easier to find hand sanitizers and alcohol in my neck of the woods. I ran across that jug of 80% alcohol sanitizer also, as well as bottles of off-brand sanitizer gel from China. I also stumbled across gallon jugs of alcohol at one of the smaller hardware chains. People are still hoarding the smaller drugstore bottles of alcohol though.

I'm also seeing lots more toilet paper back in the stores.


----------



## bykfixer

At one point early in the deal TD, tests were nowhere near as available. I kept watch on numbers in percentage in my state since we were still in flu season. When it peaked the daily number had not really changed that much but the percent tested had. Post flu season the flu like symptoms in people were not going away. 
Now that testing has greatly increased and allergy season has been extended the percentage of folks being tested that show positive is declining even though the number of "daily positives" has not dropped much. 

Most knew early on that flattening the curve meant prolonging the time it took to wane the spread. I suppose some thought (or think) that reopening means the thing is done spreading.


----------



## turbodog

bykfixer said:


> At one point early in the deal TD, tests were nowhere near as available. I kept watch on numbers in percentage in my state since we were still in flu season. When it peaked the daily number had not really changed that much but the percent tested had. Post flu season the flu like symptoms in people were not going away.
> Now that testing has greatly increased and allergy season has been extended the percentage of folks being tested that show positive is declining even though the number of "daily positives" has not dropped much.
> 
> Most knew early on that flattening the curve meant prolonging the time it took to wane the spread. I suppose some thought (or think) that reopening means the thing is done spreading.




Agreed. Worth mentioning that even if gov't didn't shutdown things people would have pretty much stopped going to certain things anyway. I know I'm not going to movies, conventions, indoor sports, indoor ANYTHING if at all possible for a long time.


----------



## bigburly912

turbodog said:


> Agreed. Worth mentioning that even if gov't didn't shutdown things people would have pretty much stopped going to certain things anyway. I know I'm not going to movies, conventions, indoor sports, indoor ANYTHING if at all possible for a long time.



Very few people would have stopped going to things. Heck people don’t care and haven’t cared since this kicked off


----------



## PhotonWrangler

The FDA is warning consumers not to use these hand sanitizer products made by Eskbiochem SA de CV in Mexico because they might contain methanol (wood alcohol) which can be toxic if absorbed or ingested.


----------



## bykfixer

Some people I know call it corona balona and say it's a hoax. 

When our president said it was bad enough to turn off the economy me and mine were already in isolation mode. I've stated it a few times before but we were watching things at Christmas and considered this whole thing like flu season with my sick dad still around when Mrs Fixer and I were his care taker. 

When nobody could find toilet paper we had plenty. Only things we ran short on were perishables like milk and vegetables. We had plan B for that. Now that all that has settled we're donating the extras like canned or boxed food to charity before they go bad. 

But I also stated I refused to be afraid of objects like door knobs or shopping carts. We keep spray bottles of sanitizer with us. And as much as I don't want this virus, if it happens it happens. Life is too short to live in fear, but one can also do a lot to create their own good (or bad) fortune.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

I say open more and more stuff up as there will be long term emotional and psychological damage from this virus if we keep trying to avoid it out of fear only prolonging the suffering of those who are at greatest risk by not getting rid of the curve totally.


----------



## Poppy

bykfixer said:


> <SNIP>
> But I also stated I refused to be afraid of objects like door knobs or shopping carts. We keep spray bottles of sanitizer with us. And as much as I don't want this virus, if it happens it happens. Life is too short to live in fear, but one can also do a lot to create their own good (or bad) fortune.



Months ago, someone pointed to a video of a MD (working in the ER or on the floor, treating a lot of covid patients). He allayed a lot of my fears/concerns. He said that the virus can't get through your skin. HUGE statement! That meant to me that gloves are not necessary. Also that I should not be afraid to touch anything.

He emphasized that it was important to keep your hands clean, and not touch your nose, eyes, or mouth. He gave examples of how he acts to feel safe. Essentially, if you touch something that may be contaminated, use sanitizer. Be sure NOT to touch your face, nose, eyes, mouth.

So unless I have a break in my skin, I don't bother to wear a glove.

I was never afraid to touch a door knob, gasoline nossel, or door in the frozen food section. Now, when I get back to my car, I apply some sanitizer to my hands, before I touch the steering wheel. In the meantime, I don't touch my nose, eyes, or mouth.

Things have changed a little, but still... Life is good!


----------



## Greta

So another challenge for us here -

Our state has not mandated masks but it has been high recommended, of course. And our governor is leaving it up to the individual counties to decide what they will do. Fair enough. Our county website has the following "recommendations":

_1. Always stay home when you are sick.
2. Always wear a mask or cloth face covering when going out in public*
*Masks should not be worn by children under the age of 2, or anyone who has trouble breathing, is unconscious, incapacitated, or otherwise unable to remove the mask without assistance.
_
And of course, businesses can decide for themselves at this time what their policies regarding masks are. 

Well... Home Depot finally decided to make it mandatory for all employees to wear masks. And no, not homemade cloth masks or bandanas or even those pretty nifty face shield thingies. Nope - standard surgical masks that they will provide you with. So Honey went to work yesterday and they handed him a mask. He put it on. In less than 5 minutes, he had a complete break down from an anxiety attack and he couldn't breathe. Today he had a meeting with the store manager and was asked to fill out an 8 page questionnaire regarding medical issues. He gladly did. Corporate will be calling his shrink tomorrow. Meanwhile, he is now on furlough until the mask requirement is lifted. They gave him a choice to use PTO but he decided to save that and get paid out for it in October. Of course, he can't collect unemployment because he wasn't laid off. We're actually fine with this arrangement and grateful HD is being so understanding and accommodating. We totally understand the need for them to get a "doctor's note". But...

This is so frustrating :sigh:


----------



## Poppy

Once again a post that is full of misinformation. When is this going to stop?




Monocrom said:


> Oh no, I get exactly what you're saying and I've given you full and honest responses. As I will again. Yes, you are correct. There are tons of individuals who recover or are non-transmittable after two full weeks. And as you said, "but not all." We agree. Thing is,* if the virus survives for only two full weeks,* what is accounting for that "not all" number?


This is a mistaken false assumption! 



> Even if we included doctor error, it still isn't going to account for all cases. *The obvious answer is re-infection.*


Wrong conclusion!
The experts refute this position. 


> Now, getting back to a point I brought up previously, not all studies are done objectively. I think we can both agree that the CDC is not made up of morons. So, why did they release that official video on their channel in which they showed how to make an improvised mask out of a cotton bandana; and gave the DIY project their recommendation. Even though, anyone with knowledge of how viruses are transmitted would instantly realize that such a recommendation would provide very little protection to the general public. Why?....
> 
> To prevent mass panic. Not to present factual information to the general public. But to prevent panicking on a National level. Virus hit California and Florida hard, before coming up to NYC. By the time it got here, N95s were nowhere to be found. Walking through my neighborhood, I overheard people getting very upset and scared that they couldn't find masks at even obscene mark-ups to buy. So, if you're the CDC, you tell folks that a two layer cotton mask DIYed from a 100% cotton bandana will absolutely protect them from getting infected.
> 
> Which we both know isn't true. WHO knows it too. Which is why they released those revised guidelines. (Personally, I still say a 100% cotton mask is fine _*if*_ it has a filter pocket with excellent filter material in it, such as a PM2.5 filter.) However, at the start of the pandemic in America, such advice from the CDC was absolutely needed to prevent rioting in the streets. What do you think is going to happen if a scientific study were to be carried out, objectively; and it discovered that re-infection is indeed what is accounting for that "not all" that you mentioned above?


Rambling conspiracy theory.



> What good would come of it? All that talk of _herd immunity_ goes right out the window. People panic, they freak out. I'm not surprised one bit that that official study has concluded no confirmed cases of re-infection. Why would they confirm what others have already seen? To cause mass panic and chaos in the streets among the general public? Yeah, that would be brilliant.


More rambling... denial of the fact that "herd immunity" is based on scientific fact.



> That 16 year-old girl is not one isolated case. There have been countless others who were physically fit and healthy who caught the virus and died. It's not just going after the very elderly or the very young. That trend during this pandemic passed more than awhile ago. The physically fit with zero immune issues are dying too. It happened 100 years ago with the Spanish Flu. It's happening now.


So what's the point? Some outliers, will get sick, and some will die, maybe live but have heart, lung and or kidney damage. However, it one looks at the overall bell curves, one will see that the most symptomatic people are those over 65, and those over 50 with co-morbidities. 


> In fairness, if you think that 1/3 of infected patients who develop lifelong kidney issues is BS, then perhaps you too are not as in the loop as you _yourself_ perceive. Especially since I've already dealt with that denial by posting links in this very topic that show it's true.



This is a misstatement of the discussion at hand. The poster stated that 1/3rd of all infected people develop lifelong kidney problems. This was proven to be mathematically incorrect, yet the poster continues to state the same B/S !

Links to videos purported to support the statement stated that some patients had systemic issues, but none supported the preposterous claim that 1/3rd of all infected have lifelong kidney issues. 



> Six family members in seven hospitals going by what they each perceive.... with their own two eyes. Safe to say they'd trust their anecdotal evidence over any sort of study presented to them. Can't blame them for doing that.


Actually, anecdotally, their experience as front line workers, with medical degrees, concur with the professional peer reviewed studies (which incidentally differ from the incorrect positions of this post)



> Definitely agree with you. There are indeed multiple reasons why a person can misunderstand what they see or come to the wrong conclusions about causes. So it's very important to remain truly open-minded to realistic probabilities instead of just dismissing them outright and pretending no such cases exist. Such as in a particular study, for example.


Condescending to appear to be reasonable. Yet after information is presented refuting the positions, the same nonsense is presented again, and again.



> Again, when I see individuals being *released at the full two week mark*, clearly having recovered; only to then return numerous days later, infected.... I tend to go with the most likely cause. And the most likely one is re-infection. Again, we're not talking a couple of individuals. When something keeps happening over and over again, then a clear trend has presented itself. At the same time, I know that it's far from likely to ever be confirmed as re-infection by ANY medical association. But for a study or an organization to simply outright dismiss a realistic probability as "non-existent" is worrying. Shows a lack of open-mindedness on their part, unfortunately.


Once again... the magical two week time frame, and then additional conspiracy theory.

Posts like this make me sick.


----------



## bigburly912

I’m so confused by all of that. Mono do you think the virus just automatically dies in every host after two weeks?


----------



## raggie33

im not a smart man luckly im very good looking if you like short fat smelly guys. but the only thing i know about corona is i listen to my dr not celebs or folks on the internet or politicans .


----------



## Poppy

Greta said:


> So another challenge for us here -
> 
> Our state has not mandated masks but it has been high recommended, of course. And our governor is leaving it up to the individual counties to decide what they will do. Fair enough. Our county website has the following "recommendations":
> 
> _1. Always stay home when you are sick.
> 2. Always wear a mask or cloth face covering when going out in public*
> *Masks should not be worn by children under the age of 2, or anyone who has trouble breathing, is unconscious, incapacitated, or otherwise unable to remove the mask without assistance.
> _
> And of course, businesses can decide for themselves at this time what their policies regarding masks are.
> 
> *Well... Home Depot finally decided to make it mandatory for all employees to wear masks. And no, not homemade cloth masks or bandanas or even those pretty nifty face shield thingies. Nope - standard surgical masks that they will provide you with.* So Honey went to work yesterday and they handed him a mask. He put it on. In less than 5 minutes, he had a complete break down from an anxiety attack and he couldn't breathe. Today he had a meeting with the store manager and was asked to fill out an 8 page questionnaire regarding medical issues. He gladly did. Corporate will be calling his shrink tomorrow. Meanwhile, he is now on furlough until the mask requirement is lifted. They gave him a choice to use PTO but he decided to save that and get paid out for it in October. Of course, he can't collect unemployment because he wasn't laid off. We're actually fine with this arrangement and grateful HD is being so understanding and accommodating. We totally understand the need for them to get a "doctor's note". But...
> 
> This is so frustrating :sigh:


From a legal standpoint, one can fully understand requiring a standard surgical mask, as opposed to a home made one, to hopefully guard the Home Depot from some lawsuits. Or in the least make them more defensible.

Sorry to hear about honey, his reaction is fully understandable. When things were bad here in NJ I'd go to the store once a week, or every ten days. I'd wear a N95 half face respirator, that required forced inspiration. It protected ME. I limited myself as much as possible to time spent in the store. I was usually in and out in 20 minutes. All during that time, my heart rate was up, and I couldn't wait to get out of the store.

Now things are better in NJ, and when I go to the store I wear a surgical mask. Inspiration isn't inhibited nearly as much, but it does increase my anxiety level a bit. I'd be a lot more anxious if I knew that I would have to wear it all day.

Good luck to you and your Honey!
Can that back-wards tric of your's take two?
Have fun!


----------



## Greta

Monocrom said:


> ....
> 
> Again, when I see individuals being released at the full two week mark, clearly having recovered; ...



How was recovery determined? Were they re-tested and got a negative test result back? 



Monocrom said:


> ...only to then return numerous days later, infected.... I tend to go with the most likely cause. And the most likely one is re-infection.



No, the most likely cause is they were STILL infected. Unless they were cleared by a negative test before they were "released at the full two week mark", clearly they hadn't "clearly recovered." 



Monocrom said:


> Again, we're not talking a couple of individuals. When something keeps happening over and over again, then a clear trend has presented itself. At the same time, I know that it's far from likely to ever be confirmed as re-infection by ANY medical association. But for a study or an organization to simply outright dismiss a realistic probability as "non-existent" is worrying. Shows a lack of open-mindedness on their part, unfortunately.



Is it possible that no medical association is likely to confirm it because they have no data to support it? Are people getting re-tested before they are "cleared"? I'll ask again, what determines recovery? What is the criteria for someone to be considered "clearly recovered"? 


Sorry, but I have to agree with Poppy on this one...



Poppy said:


> Once again... the magical two week time frame, and then additional conspiracy theory.


----------



## raggie33

ps i also dont get my prostate checked at olive garden . fool me once shame on me fool me twice shame on me


----------



## nbp

Considering the longest anyone on earth has lived beyond COVID-19 infection is about 7 months at this point, I don’t know how anyone could claim any person has developed lifelong anything as a result of it. Think about it....


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Greta said:


> So another challenge for us here -
> 
> Our state has not mandated masks but it has been high recommended, of course. And our governor is leaving it up to the individual counties to decide what they will do. Fair enough. Our county website has the following "recommendations":
> 
> _1. Always stay home when you are sick.
> 2. Always wear a mask or cloth face covering when going out in public*
> *Masks should not be worn by children under the age of 2, or anyone who has trouble breathing, is unconscious, incapacitated, or otherwise unable to remove the mask without assistance.
> _
> And of course, businesses can decide for themselves at this time what their policies regarding masks are.
> 
> Well... Home Depot finally decided to make it mandatory for all employees to wear masks. And no, not homemade cloth masks or bandanas or even those pretty nifty face shield thingies. Nope - standard surgical masks that they will provide you with. So Honey went to work yesterday and they handed him a mask. He put it on. In less than 5 minutes, he had a complete break down from an anxiety attack and he couldn't breathe. Today he had a meeting with the store manager and was asked to fill out an 8 page questionnaire regarding medical issues. He gladly did. Corporate will be calling his shrink tomorrow. Meanwhile, he is now on furlough until the mask requirement is lifted. They gave him a choice to use PTO but he decided to save that and get paid out for it in October. Of course, he can't collect unemployment because he wasn't laid off. We're actually fine with this arrangement and grateful HD is being so understanding and accommodating. We totally understand the need for them to get a "doctor's note". But...
> 
> This is so frustrating :sigh:



They seem to be requiring masks for everyone and here some businesses are requiring masks for any customers that enter the place some even adding additional temperature checks on top of it all. Businesses that never required customers masking are now requiring it. I'm wondering if either it is an insurance/healthcare provider mandate or some sort of "correctness" that is driving this mask business.
I think they are trying to go beyond "flattening the curve". The onus at the start of all of this has been to not overload hospitals but in my state we have over 4000 empty beds in hospitals here and some places are acting like people will die without masking.
We just had a Trump rally in the city and if the cases spike they will ignore the big get together on the north side of town with BLM and other anti Trump folks and the protests that happened from the Flloyd stuff the past weeks. 
They have put FEAR in everyone and think masks and social distancing will "save" your life. 
Sadly almost every business here dealing with customers people are having to mask up.


----------



## bykfixer

Probably liability LA. Good old American ambulance chasers still awaiting court decisions on Roundup class actions are hoping to cash in on the covid-19 suits. Places with deep pockets like Home Depot or CVS make easy targets these days. Oh yeah and there's that Target chain as well. 

In my state there is a mandate with no teeth unless the local health department gets involved. Yet very many are just voluntarily complying (if you want to use that term). When I talk to "the man on the street" most do not do it out of fear they will catch it. They do it in case they are asymptomatic as an anti-spread it tactic. Allergies among my coworkers this year has gone into triple over time so many are still sneezing lately.


----------



## idleprocess

Lynx_Arc said:


> We just had a Trump rally in the city and if the cases spike they will ignore the big get together on the north side of town with BLM and other anti Trump folks and the protests that happened from the Flloyd stuff the past weeks.



_Without getting into politics_, masks reduce risk and being indoors presents a greater risk due to recirculation of air vis-a-vis HVAC. Based on my casual observation of the rally and some local BLM protests, the rally presents higher risk in both categories while BLM protests present lower risk in both categories.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

bykfixer said:


> Probably liability LA. Good old American ambulance chasers still awaiting court decisions on Roundup class actions are hoping to cash in on the covid-19 suits. Places with deep pockets like Home Depot or CVS make easy targets these days. Oh yeah and there's that Target chain as well.
> 
> In my state there is a mandate with no teeth unless the local health department gets involved. Yet very many are just voluntarily complying (if you want to use that term). When I talk to "the man on the street" most do not do it out of fear they will catch it. They do it in case they are asymptomatic as an anti-spread it tactic. Allergies among my coworkers this year has gone into triple over time so many are still sneezing lately.


I think also this mask thing has now become a part of "correctness" and such thinking is way too often lead to what I consider correctness bullying if you don't fall in line you get accused of all sorts of contrived evils now and scorned which is ironic in that when I was a kid and scorned they distanced themselves from me just like this social distancing stuff... go figure.
I've read somewhere that they are now thinking that those who are asymptomatic are not carriers after all and don't spread the virus. If this is true it takes a lot of the teeth out of the mask and distance thing for those who exhibit no symptoms at all and something as simple as a temperature check could take place of the masking requirement. At several job sites we don't have to wear masks only have our temperature taken before work starts. What surprises me is that you can still buy cough drops readily here I stocked up on them as I've had an on/off cough for months from January onwards from allergies I think and take cough drops so I don't cough when I run around on a shopping trip since I don't mask up I figure if I'm not coughing people who have bought into this "fear of Covid death" won't freak out.


----------



## Poppy

June 22, 2020
In North Jersey, 16% - 17% of hospital workers and the general population test positive for corona-19 antibodies.
South Jersey, the numbers may be as low as 5%.
Few get infected without symptoms.

“There’s been talk that there are a lot of asymptomatic people” who were infected by the virus, said Adam Jarrett, chief medical officer of Holy Name Medical Center in Teaneck. “We’re just not finding that.” Jarrett said “the vast majority” of workers who tested positive had symptoms “consistent with COVID.” Tests came back positive for 16% to 17% of 2,000 workers at the hospital, he said. That is about the same rate reported by two Bergen County physicians who have been testing patients in their private practices.


more...


----------



## turbodog

Lynx_Arc said:


> I say open more and more stuff up as there will be long term emotional and psychological damage from this virus if we keep trying to avoid it out of fear only prolonging the suffering of those who are at greatest risk by not getting rid of the curve totally.



I would call it prudence, not fear. This is a real thing. And it will really overwhelm healthcare if left to run wild. It may overwhelm anyway.

We want to think it's a little thing, a manageable thing we can carry on with like nothing's changed, something that will go away soon, something that's overblown, and so on. 

It's a real pandemic whether we want it to be or not. Regretfully, some people will not survive (die), some people will be bankrupt, some people will make major life adjustments, and so on. I've got a major client with ~400 employees, and there are serious questions if he will have to close down.

I've got grandparents that are ~90. Would like to see them but can't. Also realize that they will likely pass normally before the pandemic's over. So what to do there?


----------



## Poppy

turbodog said:


> <SNIP>
> 
> I've got grandparents that are ~90. Would like to see them but can't. Also realize that they will likely pass normally before the pandemic's over. So what to do there?


My Dad will be 92 next month, and is a stranded snow bird in Florida right now.
Fortunately last year, I gave him a Lenovo smart display, through which we can do video calling with duo.

Each night at 8:00 we play cards for an hour.
I prop his cards up between two boxes of spaghetti so that my phone can see them, and I can't.

I sent him a copy of this book, and got one for myself, and each night at about 8:30 and 9:00 we do a puzzle, or a VERY Easy 2x2 Sudoku challenge.

I just printed out some 2x3 sudoku puzzles, and hope that he can handle the challenge. I sent five pages to him in the mail. He should get them today or tomorrow.

At any rate, it helps to keep his mind active, and gives him something to look forward to at the end of the day.

A little quality time for both of us. :thumbsup:


----------



## turbodog

I mentioned that I was working my way through 'the death of expertise'. Thought it would be useful to put a passage from the book in here. It's dealing with where we get news & information from, comparing the old days of abc/cbs/nbc to modern times.

And since the websites track what you click on, YOUR cnn/msnbc/fox/etc may look a lot different from MINE.

Emphasis mine.

"When people had to make do with fewer outlets, they had to contend with news that was NOT specifically tailored to their prejudices. Today, hundreds of media outlets cater to even the narrowest agendas and biases."

"This mindset, the the market that services it, creates in laypeople a combination of groundless confidence and deep cynicism, habits of thought that defeat the best attempts of experts to educate their fellow citizens."

"It's bad enough that people aren't keeping up with the news; it's worse when they don't trust what little news they do read and shop around until they find what they are looking for.


----------



## SCEMan

turbodog said:


> "When people had to make do with fewer outlets, they had to contend with news that was NOT specifically tailored to their prejudices. Today, hundreds of media outlets cater to even the narrowest agendas and biases."
> 
> "This mindset, the the market that services it, creates in laypeople a combination of groundless confidence and deep cynicism, habits of thought that defeat the best attempts of experts to educate their fellow citizens."



I've observed this "echo chamber" effect for many years and carefully limit the information sources I view to attempt to obtain a balanced perspective.


----------



## turbodog

SCEMan said:


> I've observed this "echo chamber" effect for many years and carefully limit the information sources I view to attempt to obtain a balanced perspective.



Yup. It's why I finally swore off reddit.


----------



## RedLED

PhotonWrangler said:


> The FDA is warning consumers not to use these hand sanitizer products made by Eskbiochem SA de CV in Mexico because they might contain methanol (wood alcohol) which can be toxic if absorbed or ingested.


I check to make sure that what I'm buying is made in the USA.


----------



## bykfixer

I use peroxide. Less harsh to the skin, made in the US, not flamable, generally not that hard to find and works like those other kind.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

turbodog said:


> I would call it prudence, not fear. This is a real thing. And it will really overwhelm healthcare if left to run wild. It may overwhelm anyway.
> 
> We want to think it's a little thing, a manageable thing we can carry on with like nothing's changed, something that will go away soon, something that's overblown, and so on.
> 
> It's a real pandemic whether we want it to be or not. Regretfully, some people will not survive (die), some people will be bankrupt, some people will make major life adjustments, and so on. I've got a major client with ~400 employees, and there are serious questions if he will have to close down.
> 
> I've got grandparents that are ~90. Would like to see them but can't. Also realize that they will likely pass normally before the pandemic's over. So what to do there?


 I think many people who are masking up do so out of fear. Fear from dying from the virus and fear from looking bad to those who bully and shame people who aren't masking and some out of fear for losing their job too. 
Hopefully we can push this virus out of here faster, masking and distancing is only going to slow things down to a crawl IMO when your health system is sitting idle with thousands of beds empty because of over compensation for safety.


----------



## turbodog

Lynx_Arc said:


> I think many people who are masking up do so out of fear. Fear from dying from the virus and fear from looking bad to those who bully and shame people who aren't masking and some out of fear for losing their job too.
> Hopefully we can push this virus out of here faster, masking and distancing is only going to slow things down to a crawl IMO when your health system is sitting idle with thousands of beds empty because of over compensation for safety.



By 'push out' do you mean stomp out as in prevention, contact tracing, etc? Or do you mean by letting it run until we get herd immunity levels?


----------



## Lynx_Arc

turbodog said:


> By 'push out' do you mean stomp out as in prevention, contact tracing, etc? Or do you mean by letting it run until we get herd immunity levels?


Herd immunity and a vaccine is the only way to go back to normal. Masks and distancing only propagate the idea that the virus will go away and there will be no end to masking and distancing. It reminds me of WWI in the trenches everyone keeping their head down nobody making any progress till finally a workable tank was able to push through it all.


----------



## idleprocess

Lynx_Arc said:


> fear from looking bad to those who bully and shame people who aren't masking



The opposite is a real possibility in the part of the DFW area I find myself visiting.


----------



## turbodog

Lynx_Arc said:


> Herd immunity and a vaccine is the only way to go back to normal. Masks and distancing only propagate the idea that the virus will go away and there will be no end to masking and distancing. It reminds me of WWI in the trenches everyone keeping their head down nobody making any progress till finally a workable tank was able to push through it all.



Trying to get my head around this. Mitigation efforts (masks, distancing, etc) have given us time to get supply chains beefed up. They are also the only thing keeping this from burning the world down so to speak.

Surely you're not saying to forego mitigation?

With the best scientists, labs, etc working on this I'd say we are full speed ahead on 1) a vaccine and 2) treatment. We won't have a vaccine until we _have_ one. We may never get one, but things look promising.

Mitigation and treatment may be the only options for the short AND long term. As we slow this thing down we are learning about it. It was originally treated as a respiratory disease. Lately there has been a lot more focus on the blood aspect of it, specifically clotting and related complications. A vaccine would be great, but that is sort of an 'end run', bypassing learning about the disease. The more we learn from it the better prepared we are for the next one.

South Korea's mitigation efforts are superb. Their cases per/million are 243. Ours are 7,186.


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

idleprocess said:


> The opposite is a real possibility in the part of the DFW area I find myself visiting.



Do you mean fear from looking bad to those who bully and shame people who are masking? 

While I don't agree with someone bullying a person that isn't wearing a mask, I can understand the bully's motive. The bully thinks the unmasked person is putting him and everyone else at risk. 

The reason why someone would bully a person for wearing a mask is beyond my ability to understand. Unless, of course, they're always just looking to bully someone. 

Whatever happen to Live and let live?


----------



## Lynx_Arc

turbodog said:


> Trying to get my head around this. Mitigation efforts (masks, distancing, etc) have given us time to get supply chains beefed up. They are also the only thing keeping this from burning the world down so to speak.
> 
> Surely you're not saying to forego mitigation?
> 
> With the best scientists, labs, etc working on this I'd say we are full speed ahead on 1) a vaccine and 2) treatment. We won't have a vaccine until we _have_ one. We may never get one, but things look promising.
> 
> Mitigation and treatment may be the only options for the short AND long term. As we slow this thing down we are learning about it. It was originally treated as a respiratory disease. Lately there has been a lot more focus on the blood aspect of it, specifically clotting and related complications. A vaccine would be great, but that is sort of an 'end run', bypassing learning about the disease. The more we learn from it the better prepared we are for the next one.
> 
> South Korea's mitigation efforts are superb. Their cases per/million are 243. Ours are 7,186.


Mitigating is fine to get your infrastructure set up to handle things but we are past that phase and now mitigation is only delaying the normalization of society in whole.


----------



## turbodog

Lynx_Arc said:


> Mitigating is fine to get your infrastructure set up to handle things but we are past that phase and now mitigation is only delaying the normalization of society in whole.



What about the states that are seeing drastic increases as of late? How do you let them get 'right up to the edge' of healthcare capacity and then stop the increase?

I don't see another shutdown as politically viable, economically viable, or legally viable. Gov can mandate masks in public, and do selective shutdowns (barbers, movies, large groups of people).

Also, yes supply chain is keeping up, but we are still seeing prices for PPE through the roof. $5 for a N95 that was $1 a few months ago.

As long as people are dying from this, there is no normal. As long as I have to stand 6' away from someone there is no normal. We are in for the long haul. Every single piece of data agrees on this. The southern states are starting to blow up... so the 'hot weather' theory is not holding up.

Currently, the US has had 2.4M confirmed cases out of 300M population, or .8% positive. An unknown number was/is positive. Estimates run from 30% in NY to low single digits in sparser states. Call it an average of 15%, which is a wild guess, but the best I have.

Based on R0 we will need ~60% infection for herd immunity (and partial at that) to kick in. So we are approx 25% through this thing give or take. I _want_ to be wrong, but in following the data I have no other conclusion otherwise.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

turbodog said:


> What about the states that are seeing drastic increases as of late? How do you let them get 'right up to the edge' of healthcare capacity and then stop the increase?
> 
> I don't see another shutdown as politically viable, economically viable, or legally viable. Gov can mandate masks in public, and do selective shutdowns (barbers, movies, large groups of people).
> 
> Also, yes supply chain is keeping up, but we are still seeing prices for PPE through the roof. $5 for a N95 that was $1 a few months ago.
> 
> As long as people are dying from this, there is no normal. As long as I have to stand 6' away from someone there is no normal. We are in for the long haul. Every single piece of data agrees on this. The southern states are starting to blow up... so the 'hot weather' theory is not holding up.
> 
> Currently, the US has had 2.4M confirmed cases out of 300M population, or .8% positive. An unknown number was/is positive. Estimates run from 30% in NY to low single digits in sparser states. Call it an average of 15%, which is a wild guess, but the best I have.
> 
> Based on R0 we will need ~60% infection for herd immunity (and partial at that) to kick in. So we are approx 25% through this thing give or take. I _want_ to be wrong, but in following the data I have no other conclusion otherwise.


I say a lot of states are managing well I didn't say push things to the edge but around here we had people in the media screaming like we are at the edge when we have about 4600 empty hospital beds available and only 1 death yesterday. We have barber shops already open I got my hair cut several weeks ago here. I do see some states resisting opening more out of fear that their health systems will be overrun and some places (including other countries) that probably are opening way too slow.
I think without a lot more testing we aren't really sure what percentage is involved in herd immunity the numbers could be higher or lower it may be a lot more people are becoming infected and asymptomatic than realized and that opening a little faster in some places may be possible while other places may have a lot more people that are not immune at all. 
Sooner or later we either reach the herd immunity and can go back to normal or a vaccine happens and from the reports I've heard of that isn't going to happen this year and 6 months more of masking and distancing may drive many people to become irrational as many I've been talking to are tired of all of the shutdown and distancing and masking and businesses shut down and low inventory of things that they want in stores.


----------



## bykfixer

I see treatment(s) occuring before a vaccine. Like with HIV.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

bykfixer said:


> I see treatment(s) occuring before a vaccine. Like with HIV.


One of the most effective treatments has been blood (plasma I think) transfusions from people who have recovered from the virus. I fear for the younger folks still school age and just out of school unable to attend college that their lives are put on hold getting very irritated that could go to rioting and protesting out of sheer boredom.


----------



## PhotonWrangler

Yes, I believe they're calling it Convalescent Plasma.


----------



## turbodog

Lynx_Arc said:


> I say a lot of states are managing well I didn't say push things to the edge but around here we had people in the media screaming like we are at the edge when we have about 4600 empty hospital beds available and only 1 death yesterday. We have barber shops already open I got my hair cut several weeks ago here. I do see some states resisting opening more out of fear that their health systems will be overrun and some places (including other countries) that probably are opening way too slow.
> I think without a lot more testing we aren't really sure what percentage is involved in herd immunity the numbers could be higher or lower it may be a lot more people are becoming infected and asymptomatic than realized and that opening a little faster in some places may be possible while other places may have a lot more people that are not immune at all.
> Sooner or later we either reach the herd immunity and can go back to normal or a vaccine happens and from the reports I've heard of that isn't going to happen this year and 6 months more of masking and distancing may drive many people to become irrational as many I've been talking to are tired of all of the shutdown and distancing and masking and businesses shut down and low inventory of things that they want in stores.



Herd immunity is depending on actually persistent immunity. Verdict is out on that.

I think the states that have NOT opened fully are watching the states that did. Seems eventually that they end up with cases spiking. I know MS opened fully a approx a month ago, even the casinos. However, this was an 'on paper' opening. Many places are still closed or are still curbside/delivery only. The barbers are lightly visited.

We are seeing numbers slowly and steadily tick upwards. We've had 'reporting' issues for a few days and they just dumped 5 days' worth into a mega update so no daily numbers lately.

Anyone know what changed ~3 weeks ago in AZ? Given their recent spike the change(s) would have been about that time.


----------



## Greta

turbodog said:


> Anyone know what changed ~3 weeks ago in AZ? Given their recent spike the change(s) would have been about that time.



Memorial Day weekend...


----------



## bykfixer

Just looked at world-o-meter numbers and good old California has passed NJ for 2nd place. NY has a commanding lead. 

What surprised me was AZ is busting through the pack and is up to lucky 13th place and giving my state (the $old Dominion) a good run. As much as I'd like to smack the smirk off my governors face I will say he has been a solid performer on the corona case as we trend in a good direction still. 

It is not surprising to see cases popping up like mushrooms at vacation destinations as people venture out more. As of yesterday only 353 people died from it coast to coast. Yet that number tends to take a few weeks to show up versus the total cases. So I figure early to mid-July should show how deadly Memorial day weekend was. 

The surprise to me is that Hawaii still has less than 1000 cases total. And less than 25 deaths. They must be keeping Californians away?


----------



## Monocrom

PhotonWrangler said:


> It's getting a little easier to find hand sanitizers and alcohol in my neck of the woods. I ran across that jug of 80% alcohol sanitizer also, as well as bottles of off-brand sanitizer gel from China. I also stumbled across gallon jugs of alcohol at one of the smaller hardware chains. People are still hoarding the smaller drugstore bottles of alcohol though.
> 
> I'm also seeing lots more toilet paper back in the stores.




Ironically here, T.P. has been commonly available for over a month now. Found it odd when I first saw that at the supermarket. One of the few happy surprises in the last few months.

As far as hand-sanitizer, it's interesting that the liquid form is now becoming common. With the gel very hard to find. But, as long as it works.... I realized there'd be an issue with getting smaller, portable plastic bottles. I have a handful, but they're all really designed to be used with the gel hand-sanitizer formulas. Bought a few 30ml and 50ml plastic spray bottles off the internet awhile back. I actually just a few short hours ago filled up 30ml, 50ml, and 100ml clear plastic spray bottles with that jug of hand-sanitizer from Home Depot. (A very small plastic funnel is a must.)

30ml in my pants pocket, 50ml in my work-bag, and 100ml left at work in case the large bottle of Purell at the security desk runs out before my shift. Will be refilling that bottle soon too for my co-workers at the client's site to use.


----------



## turbodog

Those are gross numbers, on per capita California is not even halfway up the list. I find it interesting that a large state like that, with large cities, doesn't rate higher. Guess they are taking this thing seriously? Or spend time outdoors?


----------



## Monocrom

bigburly912 said:


> I’m so confused by all of that. Mono do you think the virus just automatically dies in every host after two weeks?



Clearly it doesn't. But many experts predicted it does. In some countries, those arriving to their Home nation from outside of the countries get mandatory quarantine for 14 days before being sent home. Many experts thought the 14 day assumption was a safe bet. Quarantined and watched for 14 days. No symptoms. Send them home. Apparently that might have been a poor decision in some cases.


----------



## Monocrom

Greta said:


> How was recovery determined? Were they re-tested and got a negative test result back?



Some were re-tested. Not being in Admissions, not my call to release patients. Those I work with at that job are all professionals though. Would trust their judgement. That's why it's a bit disturbing when I see familiar faces being re-admitted. 





> No, the most likely cause is they were STILL infected. Unless they were cleared by a negative test before they were "released at the full two week mark", clearly they hadn't "clearly recovered."



There have been several who returned after two full weeks. More than enough cases to where doctor error wouldn't account for those. Again, I work with professionals who take their jobs/careers very seriously. I'm open to the possibility that those patients hadn't fully recovered. However, I can't dismiss a realistic possibility that re-infection may have occurred in some of those cases. 





> Is it possible that no medical association is likely to confirm it because they have no data to support it? Are people getting re-tested before they are "cleared"? I'll ask again, what determines recovery? What is the criteria for someone to be considered "clearly recovered"?



Not having data is not the same thing as data not being out there. I've seen patients return. I've listened to nurses discuss with surprise whenever it happens. Again, as far as I know, some were re-tested. This was back awhile when test kits in NYC were not nearly as common as they are now. Determination is done by doctors. I'm not one of those. However, the ones I personally know are all very professional. None do anything half-way.




> Sorry, but I have to agree with Poppy on this one...



Sorry Greta, but I let him know several days back that he was back on my Ignore List for blatantly trying to antagonize me. Publicly mentioned it in this thread too. A certain someone who has my email address but will remain nameless made it clear that Poppy was still replying to my comments, still trying to antagonize me. I thanked the individual who contacted me. But if someone wants to waste their time replying to my comments, knowing they're on my Ignore List; well, that's their time to waste. Their business. I put someone on that list, I never bother clicking on the "View Post" option. Would be a waste of my time. That's something I do care about.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

turbodog said:


> Herd immunity is depending on actually persistent immunity. Verdict is out on that.
> 
> I think the states that have NOT opened fully are watching the states that did. Seems eventually that they end up with cases spiking. I know MS opened fully a approx a month ago, even the casinos. However, this was an 'on paper' opening. Many places are still closed or are still curbside/delivery only. The barbers are lightly visited.
> 
> We are seeing numbers slowly and steadily tick upwards. We've had 'reporting' issues for a few days and they just dumped 5 days' worth into a mega update so no daily numbers lately.
> 
> Anyone know what changed ~3 weeks ago in AZ? Given their recent spike the change(s) would have been about that time.



I don't think any state has really opened up fully yet as schools and large sports venues etc are still closed due to still recommending/requiring social distancing.


----------



## SCEMan

bykfixer said:


> The surprise to me is that Hawaii still has less than 1000 cases total. And less than 25 deaths. They must be keeping Californians away?



It's no surprise since all visitors are required to self quarantine upon arrival in their hotel room for 14 days. 
We made reservations last year for a family vacation in Maui for our daughter's 10-year wedding vow renewal in late October and who knows if it'll be possible.


----------



## turbodog

Monocrom said:


> Clearly it doesn't. But many experts predicted it does. In some countries, those arriving to their Home nation from outside of the countries get mandatory quarantine for 14 days before being sent home. Many experts thought the 14 day assumption was a safe bet. Quarantined and watched for 14 days. No symptoms. Send them home. Apparently that might have been a poor decision in some cases.



That's due to 14 days being the very high end of incubation time, not recovery time. If they showed symptoms then you proceed from there. Page 2 below...

https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/situation-reports/20200402-sitrep-73-covid-19.pdf?sfvrsn=5ae25bc7_6#:~:text=The%20incubation%20period%20for%20COVID,persons%20can%20be%20contagious.

I think people would be more accepting if you would post link(s) to legit studies. Otherwise everything's anecdotal.


----------



## raggie33

went to the dr this am. i was very impressed with there new procdures .they kept the front door locked and a masked staff member comes out check your tempature and ask questions. the waiting room seats was very spaced out. now im just waiting for my blood work i sure hope its better now im sick of new meds


----------



## scout24

Might be a good idea for one or two of the regulars posting here to take a voluntary step back for a bit to review rule 4. I don't know, or care to know the backstory, but c'mon... Really? Improve your argument if nothing else. Post, not the poster. Nobody here gives a crap what anyone else does for a living, and bringing that into an argument derisively is just poor form.

(That sounded better than "You two knock it off...")


----------



## bykfixer

(Wally Cleaver voice) c'mon guys cut it out

Better Scout?


----------



## scout24

Lol. I felt the Wally option opened up the "but he started it" route...


----------



## bykfixer

My young intern and I were discussing (among other things) the corona virus and how it is like a fog slowly crossing a large lake. We were talking about how to reopen schools mainly as he is working a summer job in between his classes at college. 
It was like this. There are 350 million people in America who have never had the virus so there is apparently no immunity to the virus. So far about 2.5 million people have had it. That leaves the potential for around 347 million people left to go." 
If it turns out that only 25% of the population is ever exposed that still leaves around 82 million people left to get it. That is just in America. 

Trouble is all of the focus seems to be the number of people dieing from it. Sure a bunch have, but if things stay the same where about 9.8 out of 10 people are fine after having it so about 80 million will be just fine. So 2 million may perish sure, yet according to the cdc in 2017 2.8 million Americans did not live to see 2018. That is just under 732 (731.9) per 100,000 people. 

Corona is scarey yes, but so is a car wreck, a heart attack, a botched surgery, or the many other ways our number could be picked for the big lottery in the sky. So wash your hands, don't touch your face and stay 6' apart. If you cannot stay 6' apart wear a mask. Please.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

bykfixer said:


> My young intern and I were discussing (among other things) the corona virus and how it is like a fog slowly crossing a large lake. We were talking about how to reopen schools mainly as he is working a summer job in between his classes at college.
> It was like this. There are 350 million people in America who have never had the virus so there is apparently no immunity to the virus. So far about 2.5 million people have had it. That leaves the potential for around 347 million people left to go."
> If it turns out that only 25% of the population is ever exposed that still leaves around 82 million people left to get it. That is just in America.
> 
> Trouble is all of the focus seems to be the number of people dieing from it. Sure a bunch have, but if things stay the same where about 9.8 out of 10 people are fine after having it so about 80 million will be just fine. So 2 million may perish sure, yet according to the cdc in 2017 2.8 million Americans did not live to see 2018. That is just under 732 (731.9) per 100,000 people.
> 
> Corona is scarey yes, but so is a car wreck, a heart attack, a botched surgery, or the many other ways our number could be picked for the big lottery in the sky. So wash your hands, don't touch your face and stay 6' apart. If you cannot stay 6' apart wear a mask. Please.


I have the feeling that a lot more than 2.5 million people have "had" the virus as I read an article that around 15% or so of those in NY are said to have been infected and that was months ago in April I figure that we probably have at least 30-50 million that have been infected and of that number most are either asymptomatic or had a very mild reaction to it that went unnoticed as if an allergy, common cold, or normal flu. I think that this amount of people is why numbers are probably not spiking as bad as they could be as there is probably 75% or so of the people who are potential "victims" of this virus out there. 
I've also seen many figures all over the place that suggests that this virus is not much "deadlier" than other past flu's and viruses it is because it is a lot more contagious that we see the number larger if only 60 million people get infected by the flu vs 240 million people you will have 4 times the deaths because more are infected which is the major concern it is the chance of being infected itself not the "deadliness" of the virus that I believe is driving the numbers of hospitalizations and deaths and fear/freaking out. I believe it may not be possible to get rid of this virus without herd immunity and that may mean about 200+ million people are affected by it and that means probably half a million people could die in the end. It may be that all this is not avoidable only delayable and if that is so is the delays worth the economic hardships that may have to be endured by people for the rest of their lives as they lose steady jobs for good and business and homes and even divorce and suicides.


----------



## Poppy

bykfixer said:


> My young intern and I were discussing (among other things) the corona virus and how it is like a fog slowly crossing a large lake. We were talking about how to reopen schools mainly as he is working a summer job in between his classes at college.
> It was like this. There are 350 million people in America who have never had the virus so there is apparently no immunity to the virus. So far about 2.5 million people have had it. That leaves the potential for around 347 million people left to go."
> If it turns out that only 25% of the population is ever exposed that still leaves around 82 million people left to get it. That is just in America.
> 
> Trouble is all of the focus seems to be the number of people dieing from it. Sure a bunch have, but if things stay the same where about 9.8 out of 10 people are fine after having it so about 80 million will be just fine. *So 2 million may perish sure, yet according to the cdc in 2017 2.8 million Americans did not live to see 2018.* That is just under 732 (731.9) per 100,000 people.
> 
> Corona is scarey yes, but so is a car wreck, a heart attack, a botched surgery, or the many other ways our number could be picked for the big lottery in the sky. So wash your hands, don't touch your face and stay 6' apart. If you cannot stay 6' apart wear a mask. Please.


I guess if you combine both sets of numbers, there may be a death toll of nearly 5 million people in the US.


----------



## Poppy

Lynx_Arc said:


> *I have the feeling that a lot more than 2.5 million people have "had" the virus as I read an article that around 15% or so of those in NY are said to have been infected and that was months ago in April I figure that we probably have at least 30-50 million that have been infected* and of that number most are either asymptomatic or had a very mild reaction to it that went unnoticed as if an allergy, common cold, or normal flu. I think that this amount of people is why numbers are probably not spiking as bad as they could be as there is probably 75% or so of the people who are potential "victims" of this virus out there.
> I've also seen many figures all over the place that suggests that this virus is not much "deadlier" than other past flu's and viruses it is because it is a lot more contagious that we see the number larger if only 60 million people get infected by the flu vs 240 million people you will have 4 times the deaths because more are infected which is the major concern it is the chance of being infected itself not the "deadliness" of the virus that I believe is driving the numbers of hospitalizations and deaths and fear/freaking out. I believe it may not be possible to get rid of this virus without herd immunity and that may mean about 200+ million people are affected by it and that means probably half a million people could die in the end. It may be that all this is not avoidable only delayable and if that is so is the delays worth the economic hardships that may have to be endured by people for the rest of their lives as they lose steady jobs for good and business and homes and even divorce and suicides.


Recently in northern New Jersey, antibody testing revealed that approximately 16-17% of the population had antibodies, and in the Southern part of the state only about 5% did.

Also the early NY study at the end of April demonstrated 21% downstate, and about 5% upstate. A bit more recent study showed up to 30% in the poorer, more crowded areas of NYC.

5% of 350 million is 17 million 500 thousand.
20% of 350 million is 70 million.

I therefore agree with you that "a lot more than 2.5 million have had the virus"


----------



## bykfixer

My surmize is a total of 2.8 million (for 2017) plus a doubled amount of current fatalities would result in a bit over 3 million this year. I say doubled currently since it is June, but say the total this year is more than double……perhaps up to 400k, that would be about 3.2 which is nowhere near 5 million. 

When I said 2 million that was a theoretical total over a few years. If there are no shots available or a great treatment (like with HIV) the mitigation stategy causes it to takes years to circulate throughout a population like America. So the fatality numbers could potentially reach 2 million in time.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

bykfixer said:


> My surmize is a total of 2.8 million (for 2017) plus a doubled amount of current fatalities would result in a bit over 3 million this year. I say doubled currently since it is June, but say the total this year is more than double……perhaps up to 400k, that would be about 3.2 which is nowhere near 5 million.
> 
> When I said 2 million that was a theoretical total over a few years. If there are no shots available or a great treatment (like with HIV) the mitigation stategy causes it to takes years to circulate throughout a population like America. So the fatality numbers could potentially reach 2 million in time.


I think that is why Trump wants to open more things up, as there is hope for breakthroughs we can't keep waiting on welfare hiding in masks and isolating (distancing) from people who most of are not sick at all. The only hope is a dirt cheap extremely quick and accurate test for the virus that covers infected, antibodies, and we can figure out those who are now immune to the virus. If you have 1 million people who are now immune to the virus and not carriers they wouldn't need to distance or mask and could be put to use doing jobs that others who fear to get infected are doing.


----------



## raggie33

https://www.forbes.com/sites/andrew...y-instructed-to-self-quarantine/#69f467484e1c im not sure what is more scary! that we have dozens of secret service agents in quaritine or that no one saw this comeing


----------



## Lynx_Arc

raggie33 said:


> https://www.forbes.com/sites/andrew...y-instructed-to-self-quarantine/#69f467484e1c im not sure what is more scary! that we have dozens of secret service agents in quaritine or that no one saw this comeing


not really scary that is what they have been doing with people that test positive. The secret service guy could have got the virus in another city a week ago and just developed symptoms to be tested. This virus is going to seek out people to infect and as long as there are way too many that aren't immune to it there will be no end to all this masking/distancing stuff. What does kind of scare me is mandatory masking and distancing for the rest of my life because of the fear of less than half a percent of the population finding the virus deadly.


----------



## bykfixer

It's really sad to me to see how much energy from a so-called free press is being spent on a gathering of about 6000 people at a political pep rally and how awfully dangerous that was when tens of thousands gather daily and nothing seems to be dangerous about that. "Peceful protestor" spitting in a police officers face? Nah that's not potentially spreading corona virus. Nor is a bunch of sweaty people all huffing and puffing on each other as they "peacefully" tug on ropes to pull down statues in several countries. Nope, that doesn't spread corona virus it seems. 

Social distancing has shown it definitely helps regardless of which side of a political line folks are on. If a mayor joins an arm n arm rally isn't that potentially spreading it too? My point is that both sides of a political tug of war are breaking the rules, so looking at it like "well that guy wasn't wearing a mask" as if a New York Yankees fan is upset that a Boston Red Sox player isn't acting according to CDC reccomendations is really a shame when a bunch of Yankees players aren't either. 

Both sides are driving on the wrong side of the road on a two way street. No wonder nobody trusts our elected officials anymore. Who needs baseball when you have politics to keep you energized anymore.

A reminder:


Empath said:


> Take ALL posts regarding the presently occurring protests, riots, marches and such to The Underground.


----------



## Monocrom

turbodog said:


> That's due to 14 days being the very high end of incubation time, not recovery time. If they showed symptoms then you proceed from there. Page 2 below...
> 
> https://www.who.int/docs/default-so...n period for COVID,persons can be contagious.
> 
> I think people would be more accepting if you would post link(s) to legit studies. Otherwise everything's anecdotal.




Unfortunately, Humanity in general suffers from a condition known as "Denial." I have posted links in the past to prove my point on various forums I belong to, regarding various topics. Both on CPF, and others. People often wish to believe what they want to believe. Won't let something like the truth get in their way. Even when links are provided. I stay open-minded but folks sometimes don't. That's just the way it is. Individuals who honestly wish to educate themselves can do so. Those resources are available.


----------



## Monocrom

bykfixer said:


> My young intern and I were discussing (among other things) the corona virus and how it is like a fog slowly crossing a large lake. We were talking about how to reopen schools mainly as he is working a summer job in between his classes at college.
> It was like this. There are 350 million people in America who have never had the virus so there is apparently no immunity to the virus. So far about 2.5 million people have had it. That leaves the potential for around 347 million people left to go."
> If it turns out that only 25% of the population is ever exposed that still leaves around 82 million people left to get it. That is just in America.
> 
> Trouble is all of the focus seems to be the number of people dieing from it. Sure a bunch have, but if things stay the same where about 9.8 out of 10 people are fine after having it so about 80 million will be just fine. So 2 million may perish sure, yet according to the cdc in 2017 2.8 million Americans did not live to see 2018. That is just under 732 (731.9) per 100,000 people.
> 
> Corona is scarey yes, but so is a car wreck, a heart attack, a botched surgery, or the many other ways our number could be picked for the big lottery in the sky. So wash your hands, don't touch your face and stay 6' apart. If you cannot stay 6' apart wear a mask. Please.




The main issue with numbers is that they're just numbers. They de-personalize the fact that each individual is a human life cut short. A mother, a father, a spouse.... a child. With a car accident or a botched surgery, those are possibilities we don't like to think about. But we know they _could_ happen. And if they do, at the very least grieving families can properly bury their dead. Honor and mourn for them, properly. Doing so helps to heal them to some degree. Or, to bring closure as some would say. 

With the coronavirus, that's all gone. Extreme pragmatism is required. While not a problem for some, for most folks it's a huge issue. (For example: All the times I went to a Graduation ceremony as a student, they meant nothing to me. Work hard, get excellent grades, graduate. Here's a ceremony to honor your scholastic achievement. Okay.... Let me go through the motions with this black robe and funny hat since everyone else is too. Our governor plans on letting the class of 2020 have normal graduation ceremonies this year. Great! More new cases of infected on the way.) 

A couple of months back, there was a local news story about a woman who found out that a relative who died of Covid-19; his body was sitting for weeks in the back of a refrigerated van. She was understandably upset and outraged. Nothing came of the story. Under normal circumstances, it would have been a huge scandal. Under the current ones, it's part of the New Normal for processing bodies. In a state hit with more deaths from the virus than literally most single entire nations have been, funeral homes are horribly overwhelmed! Workers horribly overworked. And unfortunately it's easy to forget each body inside of an overloaded van is a human-being with loved ones who have to wait.

When their turn comes, they can't even mourn properly. Can't give their deceased loved one a proper burial. In many cases, can't even look at them one last time. Some funeral homes are trying to accommodate family members. Services with thick, clear plastic partitions. Masks required. Only five family members in the viewing room at one time, spaced apart as much as possible. 

It's horrendous, it's horrific. Far different than the usual things out there that can claim the life of a loved one. All I'm saying is, let's keep in mind that there are individual human-beings behind those impersonal numbers. It's important to not forget that.... Just as important as it is to continue to remain extremely pragmatic for the foreseeable future.


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

Starting tomorrow, June 26, Washington State will have a mandatory mask requirement.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

They were discussing mandatory masking here too due to a spike in infections. My issue with all of this is I think those in charge will enjoy the lower numbers more than the inconvenience of masks. When I was out and about unmasked I talked to over a dozen people without masks and several of them said that masks would cause them medical problems with breathing. Most of those who are getting infected lately are lower risk which IMO is probably going to help with herd immunity should a vaccine not become available till almost 2022. 
I think some cosmetic companies may need to consider asking for financial help because women wearing masks don't need much in the way of makeup and guys forced to wear masks don't have to shave either. 
I think those mandatory mask zones (cities/states) won't want to roll back masks to voluntary use and probably if the rise continues we could even see a limited martial law people forced to stay inside back to "essential" workers again.


----------



## turbodog

I have a customer that received an unexpected delivery recently from the hanes underwear company. 6 pallets of masks, 132,000 in total. 45 boxes each pallet, 500 per box. free of charge.

they have no idea what to do with them... only have 8 people in the office.


----------



## raggie33

turbodog said:


> I have a customer that received an unexpected delivery recently from the hanes underwear company. 6 pallets of masks, 132,000 in total. 45 boxes each pallet, 500 per box. free of charge.
> 
> they have no idea what to do with them... only have 8 people in the office.


its simple hand them out to the homeless goto the er and donate them


----------



## idleprocess

turbodog said:


> I have a customer that received an unexpected delivery recently from the hanes underwear company. 6 pallets of masks, 132,000 in total. 45 boxes each pallet, 500 per box. free of charge.
> 
> they have no idea what to do with them... only have 8 people in the office.



If they're rated PPE from a reputable manufacturer, I imagine that ER's, fire departments, police departments, doctor's offices would gladly accept them.


----------



## turbodog

idleprocess said:


> If they're rated PPE from a reputable manufacturer, I imagine that ER's, fire departments, police departments, doctor's offices would gladly accept them.



They're made by Hanes... get the 'picture'?


----------



## idleprocess

turbodog said:


> They're made by Hanes... get the 'picture'?



So they're more ... casual ... masks. Dunno then.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

turbodog said:


> They're made by Hanes... get the 'picture'?



They should be called "undermasks".


----------



## turbodog

idleprocess said:


> So they're more ... casual ... masks. Dunno then.



They are tight, white, and keep things from getting out. (germs that is)


----------



## Poppy

turbodog said:


> They are tight, white, and keep things from getting out. (germs that is)


Do they look like this?


----------



## bykfixer

raggie33 said:


> its simple hand them out to the homeless goto the er and donate them




This ^^^^


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

:shakehead ....... You guys ......... think I'll go have a mow.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

mow mow mow your lawn quickly till it's done
merrily fairly barely till you fall down in the sun


----------



## Poppy

LOL... in the Pacific NW you need artificial rain?


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

Lynx_Arc said:


> mow mow mow your lawn quickly till it's done
> merrily fairly barely till you fall down in the sun


 
HA! I went ridin tonight. Had one beer after work ... to kill any COVID I might have contacted, then chose the Deere due to it being too hot to walk behind.


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

Poppy said:


> LOL... in the Pacific NW you need artificial rain?



We get one week of Summer then it rains the rest of the year ..... don't even think of moving here. It's always raining. That's actually our COVID moisture shield. The water drops catch the germs and contain them till reaching the lawn. ..... The beautiful, green, lush, lawn.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> HA! I went ridin tonight. Had one beer after work ... to kill any COVID I might have contacted, then chose the Deere due to it being too hot to walk behind.



I mow in the morning myself before it starts getting too hot


----------



## Monocrom

raggie33 said:


> its simple hand them out to the homeless goto the er and donate them



Hospitals in my neck of the woods are only interested in N95s or Surgical masks for donations. Thankfully the latter are rather plentiful. A lot of homeless shelters are unfortunately shut down. But many are part of larger charities that still hand out food and toiletries to the homeless. No reason masks couldn't be handed out as well. 

Starting a new run of mask giveaway on my main YouTube channel for my subscribers and viewers. Found a fantastic company. Made in the USA. Washable/Reusable, hand-sewn with included filter material. Great masks. Ironically, seems most are unaware of it though. So they had a sale recently. Got to take care of those subs. and viewers. Even got me an E-Stalker who stops by to tell me how terrible my videos are. That's when you know you're doing something right on YouTube. 

If I don't give all of the masks away, I'm going to phone up a few more charities. Ones that have homeless shelters attached to them. They'll be happy to get them.


----------



## Poppy

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> We get one week of Summer then it rains the rest of the year ..... don't even think of moving here. It's always raining. That's actually our COVID moisture shield. The water drops catch the germs and contain them till reaching the lawn. ..... The beautiful, green, lush, lawn.


Yes CG, it is a beautiful lawn, and something to take pride in. :thumbsup:


----------



## bykfixer

So to all you folks now required to wear masks, is it just in stores or buildings or is it outdoors as well? 

I imagine if a construction worker in summer heat wearing that plastic bag of a safety vest, a plastic hard hat and a now a mask…… many would be saying please corona, just kill me because it's got to be better than this……

The project I'm on three flaggers stand in the sweltering heat on brand new 135 degree asphalt all day with a hi vis nylon short sleeve jacket and hi vis nylon pants and a plastic helmet for 10 hours a day (w/15 minute break every 2 hours). Needless to say all are thin as a twig. If they had to cover their face all day we'd probably have a mass exodus and frankly I would not blame them.


----------



## raggie33

this whole post makes me understand what a jerk i am . im a jerk for the replys i almost make. i need to be a better person and more understanding


----------



## Poppy

bykfixer,
I don't know if the 6 foot rule is an arbitrary one or not. Maybe if it was increased to 10 feet, then they could drop the mask requirement, especially out-doors.

Unfortunately there are many people who don't know what 6 feet looks like.


----------



## idleprocess

bykfixer said:


> So to all you folks now required to wear masks, is it just in stores or buildings or is it outdoors as well?



Past mandates in the DFW area for the public have tended to be premised upon _entering a place of business_, thus limited to indoors. I see some people wearing masks when walking along roads and on bike/pedestrian trails but haven't heard of any official badgering of those that don't.

We shall see what the new mandates rolling down the pike bring - I suspect more of the same.


----------



## FroggyTaco

bykfixer said:


> So to all you folks now required to wear masks, is it just in stores or buildings or is it outdoors as well?
> 
> I imagine if a construction worker in summer heat wearing that plastic bag of a safety vest, a plastic hard hat and a now a mask…… many would be saying please corona, just kill me because it's got to be better than this……
> 
> The project I'm on three flaggers stand in the sweltering heat on brand new 135 degree asphalt all day with a hi vis nylon short sleeve jacket and hi vis nylon pants and a plastic helmet for 10 hours a day (w/15 minute break every 2 hours). Needless to say all are thin as a twig. If they had to cover their face all day we'd probably have a mass exodus and frankly I would not blame them.




I live in California & as far as I'm aware the mask requirement is FAR less onerous that your above proposed scenario. See the official website guidelines:

https://covid19.ca.gov/masks-and-ppe/#top

Road flaggers at least in my state are WAY WAY further apart than 6" so therefore would be exempt from a mask requirement. 

Frankly IMO your hypothetical scenario is lacking any substantive truth & smells like FUD mongering.


----------



## bigburly912

FroggyTaco said:


> I live in California & as far as I'm aware the mask requirement is FAR less onerous that your above proposed scenario. See the official website guidelines:
> 
> https://covid19.ca.gov/masks-and-ppe/#top
> 
> Road flaggers at least in my state are WAY WAY further apart than 6" so therefore would be exempt from a mask requirement.
> 
> Frankly IMO your hypothetical scenario is lacking any substantive truth & smells like FUD mongering.



What are you talking about? Has nothing to do with the post above and the “rule” is 6’ not 6”. Being in the 90 degree heat with hot asphalt being poured around you would have to be miserable.


----------



## idleprocess

FroggyTaco said:


> Frankly IMO your hypothetical scenario is lacking any substantive truth & smells like FUD mongering.



Eh ... in prior posts bykfixer has indicated that the mandates in his state have indeed been a tad onerous for construction workers, working outdoors where the risks of transmission are markedly lower than indoors with recirculating HVAC.

A quick search turns up this, however that's a bit more recent.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

I think the issue is..... what does "mandatory" mask use really entail? I think in some places if social distancing is not possible a mask is required but other places masks are required where there are any people at all. In our city the mayor is now hinting if the "numbers" don't go the way the health department head likes we could have mandatory masking here. For now we don't but more and more businesses are now requiring masks AND distancing (if possible) on their premises, no mask no entrance and some now are even on top of this taking your temperature and even if you don't have a fever you still have to mask and distance. I've worked on jobs where they take your temperature but don't require masking and distancing at all and am glad as it is often hotter and more humid such that a mask could cause a lot of stress on a person especially if they aren't a younger adult used to it. As someone now older I find masks wear me out wearing them for extended amount of times especially in the heat because unless you have a mask with a vent valve they hamper your air flow and also trap CO2 in the mask making you breathe more and harder to get what oxygen you need and also trapping heat plus increased humidity in the air you breathe on top of it all. Dogs cool themselves with their tongues and breathing a mask in hot weather could possibly kill a dog as they don't rely much on sweating to keep cool like we do. 
I think the one thing that concerns me is when they do go to mandatory masking, and it does drive down the numbers (for several reasons) that the officials will have their egos stroked... look at me I saved the day by demanding masks. The same people to keep "looking good" will not go back to voluntary mask use till the virus is no longer any threat at all which means months, even years of mandatory masking.
When Covid 19 ends and Covids 20-25 come along if they overlap we could live the rest of our lives in some places with masks on.
I'm pretty much hoping this insane thinking doesn't come to pass but watching how certain states and officials have handled this virus thing I am beginning to think there is an actual possibility of it happening to some extent.


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

Effective June 26, a (Washington) statewide order requires individuals to wear a face covering in indoor public spaces such as stores, offices and restaurants. The order also requires face coverings outdoors when you can't stay 6 feet apart from others.
There are exemptions, including people with certain disabilities or health conditions, people who are deaf or hard of hearing, and children under the age of 2. (It's encouraged to have children ages 3-5 wear a covering if possible. Children 5 and older must wear a face covering.) There are also situations when you can remove your face covering, such as when seated at a restaurant or when recreating alone.
You do not need to wear a cloth face covering in your home when you are only with people in your household, or when you are alone in your car. You do not need to wear one when you are outdoors and people are far apart. Additional Q&A is available from the state Department of Health.


----------



## Hooked on Fenix

California is requiring masks statewide indoors and outdoors in public. You don't have to wear a mask if you are doing high intensity activities like running, hiking, or riding a bike if you can keep 6 feet away from people. I went rock climbing this week. Obviously, I did not wear a mask for that as it would be dangerous. I'm glad to see that the county in Oregon that said black people were exempt from wearing masks changed their mind. There's nothing quite like making people jealous of a group's special privileges that increase the spread of a deadly virus when they are out in the streets in large groups for several weeks at a time to bring out the racists. That exemption was putting a target on their backs, so I'm glad they got rid of it and we're back to an even playing field. I hope this ends soon before more businesses shut down permanently. Our local Kmart is going out of business. I heard Lowes might be going out of business as well this year. Adventure 16 went bust right before the corona virus started and Fry's Electronics was just an empty warehouse. While larger businesses have been able to get loans from the government through the banks, smaller mom and pop stores have been denied by the banks because they didn't have accounts with those particular banks. This is forcing the smaller stores to go belly up because they can't secure funds to continue. I wonder what it's going to be like when our "nonessential" stores can open up again? What ones will actually be left? Will kids have fewer toys and video games available? Will sporting goods and sports equipment disappear for certain activities? Will clothing options be more limited? Will emergency supplies become a rare commodity? Will movie theaters have a large gap in time when they have nothing new to show? Let's hope these loses are minimised so we have a normal to get back to.


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

Being a mom is not the hardest job in the world. Laying asphalt in 135 degree heat for ten hours has got to be somewhere towards the top of that list. :sweat:


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> Being a mom is not the hardest job in the world. Laying asphalt in 135 degree heat for ten hours has got to be somewhere towards the top of that list. :sweat:


I've helped with asphalt for not even 2 hours and almost passed out for the exertion and heat from it all, but then I was in my 50s when I did it.


----------



## bykfixer

The asphalt the flaggers stand on is 135 degrees at times. 
The stuff the pavers are placing is minimum 250 to meet specs and 350 at the max. 

I had a reporter for a small local paper walk up to me and wanted to do an interview on "10 jobs you don't want this summer". He was sweating like an ice cube in Arizona as we were about 20 feet from the new asphalt being placed. He said "phew, how do you do it?" I aimed my infrared temp gun at the ground and took a reading and showed it to him. I chuckled and said "pfft, it's only 155 where are young padawan" and aimed it the pavers, took a reading and showed him where they were it was over 275 degrees. I said "those are the guys with the job you don't want, go talk to them". 
He walked over to the pavers and within a few minutes he turned a funky shade of red and the workers were dragging him to a shady place. 

Now my original post on the subject was whether or not masks have to be worn outdoors in some states. I'm just curious. No onerous motives or that type thing. I just wondered what other states are doing. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. 

Long before mask rules in my state folks on my project had masks for times we had to be within 6 feet of each other. The government didn't have to make us. 

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?466903-Masks-thread
Started 4/13/20


----------



## Johnnyh

Lynx_Arc said:


> I've helped with asphalt for not even 2 hours and almost passed out for the exertion and heat from it all, but then I was in my 50s when I did it.



Yea, they did my driveway two weeks ago and when I stepped out to talk to the guys, it must’ve been easily 130 F out there just after they layed it down. Brutal. The foreman told me that the asphalt Is about 300 degrees F when it comes off the dump truck.


----------



## nbp

Last weekend I went to a very small BBQ. Just my family and one other family, I think 10 people total. The next day I get a text from one of the girls that she had a low grade fever and a sore throat and was going to call the doc to get tested Monday morning. Three days later I hadn’t heard anything so I asked about it, and she said that the doc office said that her symptoms weren’t bad enough and wouldn’t test her. 

So... I don’t know who this “TEST TEST TEST to stop the spread” refrain applies to. Is there a downside to getting negative results that they don’t want to risk it? Haha


----------



## Poppy

nbp,
That's crazy.

Early on, April, testing in NJ was very limited, they could't get enough tests, so only those with a doctor's prescription could you get tested, and it would only be written if you had, fever (IIRC over 101F), and shortness of breath. 

Now, there are multiple sites offering free tests.

The governor is saying that they aren't being used enough, and Please get tested. 

Two weeks ago, I was negative for antibodies, and now for the past three days, I've been running a very low grade fever. If I still have it on Monday, I'll have a swab test. Free to all Passaic County residents.

Our County is even offering free test at home kits. You register, they mail it to you, you do a virtual visit with an MD who instructs, and observes your self swabbing. You then send it off in a prepaid mailer. 48-72 hours after they receive the sample, you get the results emailed.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

I've taken my temp almost every day since this scare started and haven't had any fever at all and I've been everywhere without a mask and still go in half the Walmarts in town without a mask. I either have had it and not known it or it just bounces off of me like bullet proof.
I heard today that people who gave blood to the Red Cross got a free antibody test and $5 gift card online etc.


----------



## Greta

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> Being a mom is not the hardest job in the world.....



Them's fightin' words Buddy.... :touche:


On another note... I just got home from picking my husband up from the hospital where he had a heart procedure. I drove the Slingshot. It's 113 degrees out there today. Sweating like a pig now and nauseous :sweat:. And... taking care of my loopy husband... like a Mom...


----------



## Poppy

Lynx_Arc said:


> I've taken my temp almost every day since this scare started and haven't had any fever at all and *I've been everywhere without a mask and still go in half the Walmarts in town without a mask.* I either have had it and not known it or it just bounces off of me like bullet proof.
> I heard today that people who gave blood to the Red Cross got a free antibody test and $5 gift card online etc.


Not wearing a mask is irrelevant regarding personal protection.
Wearing a surgical mask or a DIY cloth mask does NOT protect YOU. It reduces how much spit you send to others.

For personal protection, you need a properly fitted N95 mask, and eye protection.
And of course to keep your hands clean, and out of your eyes, nose and mouth.

Hopefully for you, and the ones around you, since you don't wear a mask in public, you have been infected, developed antibodies, and are unlikely to spread it to others.


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

Greta said:


> Them's fightin' words Buddy.... :touche:



Yes, I know. That's why I wrote them. :nana: 

NSFW - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hitc8haEu_g 




Greta said:


> On another note... I just got home from picking my husband up from the hospital where he had a heart procedure.* I drove the Slingshot. It's 113 degrees out there today. Sweating like a pig now and nauseous :sweat:. And... taking care of my loopy husband... like a Mom... *



Contrast the drive with laying asphalt or roofing in July as a ginger for ten hours. BTW, Your husband is a lucky man. 

I was recently asked by a military policeman if I had any COVID-19 symptoms. I responded - "Are you kidding? I'm a man. If I had any of those symptoms I'd be home on the couch whining for my wife to take care of me." He allowed me entry into the commissary.


----------



## Monocrom

bykfixer said:


> So to all you folks now required to wear masks, is it just in stores or buildings or is it outdoors as well?
> 
> I imagine if a construction worker in summer heat wearing that plastic bag of a safety vest, a plastic hard hat and a now a mask…… many would be saying please corona, just kill me because it's got to be better than this……
> 
> The project I'm on three flaggers stand in the sweltering heat on brand new 135 degree asphalt all day with a hi vis nylon short sleeve jacket and hi vis nylon pants and a plastic helmet for 10 hours a day (w/15 minute break every 2 hours). Needless to say all are thin as a twig. If they had to cover their face all day we'd probably have a mass exodus and frankly I would not blame them.




For anything work-related, always best to ask whoever is in charge. That way, you cover your own backside if a higher-up gets upset with you. The term "mask" is very loosely defined. Technically a thin 100% cotton single layer piece of cloth (such as cut from an old short-sleeve T-shirt, with ear-loops cut out the sides) is a mask. I've seen a few people do that.

I get the feeling it's usually the ones who don't believe the virus is real, or believe it's not that bad. Having to comply with mandatory mask rules, they wear such masks so they can keeping going shopping at the supermarket. It's the same thing with guys who claim to be hard-core bikers. Having to comply with mandatory helmet laws, they wear a certain type of "helmet" that they all know is just a basic head covering that won't protect them during even a minor tumble. Their way of silent protest.

In your work situation though, the fake mask described above; might be an option for those who just don't want to wear a real one while on the job with all that other gear. But are told they need to do so.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Poppy said:


> Not wearing a mask is irrelevant regarding personal protection.
> Wearing a surgical mask or a DIY cloth mask does NOT protect YOU. It reduces how much spit you send to others.
> 
> For personal protection, you need a properly fitted N95 mask, and eye protection.
> And of course to keep your hands clean, and out of your eyes, nose and mouth.
> 
> Hopefully for you, and the ones around you, since you don't wear a mask in public, you have been infected, developed antibodies, and are unlikely to spread it to others.


From what I've read those who are asymptomatic rarely spread the virus 
https://time.com/5850256/who-asymptomatic-spread/

The highest estimate was a transmission rate of 2.2%, suggesting “asymptomatic spread is unlikely to be a major driver of clusters or community transmission of infection.


----------



## PhotonWrangler

Lynx_Arc said:


> From what I've read those who are asymptomatic rarely spread the virus
> https://time.com/5850256/who-asymptomatic-spread/
> 
> The highest estimate was a transmission rate of 2.2%, suggesting “asymptomatic spread is unlikely to be a major driver of clusters or community transmission of infection.



This is a fairly recent change in thinking. Early on in the pandemic everyone was terrified that there were asymptomatic spreaders everywhere. Now it might be coming down to the presymptomatic carriers being the bigger problem. I believe that choir practice in Washington State where multiple members were infected was caused by someone who was presymptomatic (update: she had mild cold-like symptoms). From what I've read an infected person can be contagious up to a couple of days before symptoms appear.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

PhotonWrangler said:


> This is a fairly recent change in thinking. Early on in the pandemic everyone was terrified that there were asymptomatic spreaders everywhere. Now it might be coming down to the presymptomatic carriers being the bigger problem. I believe that choir practice in Washington State where multiple members were infected was caused by someone who was presymptomatic (update: she had mild cold-like symptoms). From what I've read an infected person can be contagious up to a couple of days before symptoms appear.


 Well I check for the most common symptom every day... with my laser thermometer so I'm not presymptomatic and when I feel like I am a little off I recheck my temperature again not hard to do when it is in a shelf by my desk and takes 30 seconds to do.
I'm still not sold on people being contagious without any symptoms at all, I think maybe some people are lazy and want to hype the situation by claiming that people can be carriers without symptoms. If it is possible I still think it is rather rare to not have any symptoms and pass the virus otherwise why bother with temperature checks if people don't get a fever at all and are contagious you are wasting your time doing that. I've been on several jobs where they don't require masks just a temperature check and I'm sure they are following CDC guidelines at that. Now I do social distance when I can not for my sake but to make others more at ease around me if they think I'm contagious and so on.


----------



## Poppy

Lynx_Arc said:


> From what I've read those who are asymptomatic rarely spread the virus
> https://time.com/5850256/who-asymptomatic-spread/
> 
> The highest estimate was a transmission rate of 2.2%, suggesting “asymptomatic spread is unlikely to be a major driver of clusters or community transmission of infection.



Yes, I read that article or another referring to the WHO position. 
Maybe they are right, maybe they are wrong. IDK.



Lynx_Arc said:


> I've taken my temp almost every day since this scare started and haven't had any fever at all and *I've been everywhere without a mask and still go in half the Walmarts in town without a mask.* I either have had it and not known it or it just bounces off of me like bullet proof.
> I heard today that people who gave blood to the Red Cross got a free antibody test and $5 gift card online etc.



Your statement above infers that you believe that wearing a mask protects the wearer.

It does not!


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Poppy said:


> Yes, I read that article or another referring to the WHO position.
> Maybe they are right, maybe they are wrong. IDK.
> 
> 
> 
> Your statement above infers that you believe that wearing a mask protects the wearer.
> 
> It does not!


If a mask doesn't protect you, and only in rare cases do asymptomatic people infect others then those who are not symptomatic a mask is worthless to them and only a security blanket for others wearing them to make them feel better.


----------



## RedLED

As far as jobs in the heat, I can beat them all. Early August, 120F, raging structure fire, 15:00 Hrs., full turn-out gear, in the Colorado Desert, (Or Coachella Valley, I hate to use Coachella, as it promotes the awful music Fest. we all hate here because of all the freaks that show up). 

Nothing is worse than this, and as a young fireman, I was taken off scene several times.

I did it for four years, and quit. Not worth it.

Of course, now there is what I call "Luxury Firefighting." They have automatic transmissions, not ten speed, double clutch, electric shift transmissions, air conditioned cabs, cold water, snacks from a CalFire catering truck, and a city bus as a cooling center. And a five man team. We were one man on the engine. 

These muscle bound cats cats would fall flat if they had to endure what our crew went through!

We would have five men on scene, now for the same fire they have 45. Wimps from the gym.


----------



## Hooked on Fenix

Total reported corona virus cases topped 10 million and total deaths worldwide reached over half a million today. Imperial County in California is being asked to go back to the stay at home order. San Francisco is halting it's stage 3 reopening which was scheduled for Monday. San Bernardino county is running out of hospital beds and is starting to use it's overflow capacity. San Diego county has had a record number of cases for several days in the last week triggering the county to not be able to move forward with any more stage level openings. California statewide will not be entering stage 4 for the foreseeable future. This is not the news I wanted to hear, but it looks like we may be stuck at home again soon.


----------



## Monocrom

Hooked on Fenix said:


> Total reported corona virus cases topped 10 million and total deaths worldwide reached over half a million today. Imperial County in California is being asked to go back to the stay at home order. San Francisco is halting it's stage 3 reopening which was scheduled for Monday. San Bernardino county is running out of hospital beds and is starting to use it's overflow capacity. San Diego county has had a record number of cases for several days in the last week triggering the county to not be able to move forward with any more stage level openings. California statewide will not be entering stage 4 for the foreseeable future. This is not the news I wanted to hear, but it looks like we may be stuck at home again soon.




It's ridiculous. And it's not like no one has the solution. Copy New Zealand's example of strict social isolation. Copy Greece's example of how to effectively fight back against the virus. The most financially crippled, nearly bankrupt nation in all of the European Union is kicking covid-19 in its backside! Apparently nations with far more money and resources just can't seem to figure out what to do. Do what an actual monkey would do, and copy the actions that you see. Our Governors, and Mayors in America apparently lack the intelligence of a monkey. 

Although in fairness, maybe things would be a whole heck of a lot easier if their constituents didn't confuse *not* being able to go to Olive Garden for breadsticks and unlimited salads as some sort of bizarre and horrendous infringement of their Freedom. 

Honestly, America would have been better off if this virus had hit after World War II. We'd still have a population in existence that learned and knew the lessons from over 25 years ago previously. A generation that literally sacrificed in so many ways to defeat true Evil in the form of a short little man with an Oliver hardy mustache. A generation that didn't confuse actual Freedom for some silly token example of one while moaning about not being able to go out to eat.

Personally, I love the breadsticks at Olive Garden. I genuinely do. I love not having to live with lifelong lung issues or gambling that I'll be the 1 in 3 patients who develops lifelong kidney issues on top of that, a lot more than I do those warm, soft, delicious breadsticks.


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## Lynx_Arc

NZ has advantages we cannot copy here.... small population (about the same as my state) and the ocean as their borders a lot easier to keep people that could be infected out. In my state we have people from all over the country going through here trucking must go on and planes will fly back and forth. Even if you lock everyone down for 2 weeks someone outside of the country would sneak in and spread the virus and in a month it would be everywhere again.


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## PhotonWrangler

I was at a store a few weeks ago and 70-80% of the people were wearing masks including all employees. Same store today and that dropped to around 40%. It was mostly younger people not wearing masks. I don't understand why. I've seen several posts where a young person wearing an oxygen tube said "I didn't take it seriously / didn't believe it was real but then I got it."


----------



## Poppy

Hooked on Fenix said:


> Total reported corona virus cases topped 10 million and total deaths worldwide reached over half a million today. Imperial County in California is being asked to go back to the stay at home order. San Francisco is halting it's stage 3 reopening which was scheduled for Monday. San Bernardino county is running out of hospital beds and is starting to use it's overflow capacity. San Diego county has had a record number of cases for several days in the last week triggering the county to not be able to move forward with any more stage level openings. California statewide will not be entering stage 4 for the foreseeable future. This is not the news I wanted to hear, but it looks like we may be stuck at home again soon.


Yeah, people are not being reasonably responsible. Honestly, I don't think 6 feet is enough. Haven't you ever been 20-30 feet downwind of someone who exhales after taking a drag on a cigarette and still be able to smell it? I can smell my neighbor's kids smoking pot 100 feet away, and when hunting one day with a friend, we were in the damp woods, and I thought that I might have stepped in bear crap or something. He was a hundred yards away... smoking a cigar.

OK Back on track. When the numbers look better and rules are relaxed, people, (not all) but many take the new rules too lax. 

I don't know the stats in California, but in Florida the bulk of the new cases are people in the 20-40 year old bracket. Fortunately, they are the most survivable age group. However the more the virus is active in the community, the more likely the older, most fragile age groups will succumb to the virus. And die.


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## bykfixer

Ok I'm about to quote a coworker so don't think it was my thinking. A youngster I work with who is not yet old enough to legally consume alcohol actually said "I think this corona virus is a great thing"…… Of course I had to ask why he thinks that. 

His response caused me to shake my head and left me speechless for a time. "Beause it is taking out all those people on social security and now there may be some money left for me when it's my turn"…… All I could say was "wow, now that's as cold as a well diggers @$$ in the Yukon in December"……


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## Lynx_Arc

bykfixer said:


> Ok I'm about to quote a coworker so don't think it was my thinking. A youngster I work with who is not yet old enough to legally consume alcohol actually said "I think this corona virus is a great thing"…… Of course I had to ask why he thinks that.
> 
> His response caused me to shake my head and left me speechless for a time. "Beause it is taking out all those people on social security and now there may be some money left for me when it's my turn"…… All I could say was "wow, now that's as cold as a well diggers @$$ in the Yukon in December"……


Doesn't make any sense because the costs of this virus is a lot more than what those who died of it would get off SS.


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## KITROBASKIN

Given the lessened precautions, and the upsurge, it seems like the people have a chance to learn how real this is, as opposed to a blanket mandate thrust upon us. Hopefully now we can see why hygiene and distancing are prudent. Of course, humans have been given free will (in a sense) and this is one way we learn; trial by viral fire. Another chapter in the book called Covid-19. Curious though how many states in USA have less curvy curves of infection and death. One can see any state's stats, even breaking down into individual counties.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/...20200624&rid=2BB965103C33007099EE0154C8DC92B2


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## Hooked on Fenix

Poppy said:


> I can smell my neighbor's kids smoking pot 100 feet away, and when hunting one day with a friend, we were in the damp woods, and I thought that I might have stepped in bear crap or something. He was a hundred yards away... smoking a cigar.



You saw a bear smoking a cigar? Was his name Smokey?


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## Poppy

Hooked on Fenix said:


> You saw a bear smoking a cigar? Was his name Smokey?


hahaha cute 

A couple of local papers have reported, with photos of cocoa beach, Florida, that yesterday (probably as a result of spiking case numbers) fewer people went to the beach. There was a considerable more distancing than in the recent past.

Here's hoping that people (as they become more aware of more cases in their state) do less socializing, and are more careful.

It worked here in NJ, it can work elsewhere too.

But... if we don't remain vigilant, it could re-spike here too.
fingers crossed


----------



## Monocrom

Lynx_Arc said:


> NZ has advantages we cannot copy here.... small population (about the same as my state) and the ocean as their borders a lot easier to keep people that could be infected out. In my state we have people from all over the country going through here trucking must go on and planes will fly back and forth. Even if you lock everyone down for 2 weeks someone outside of the country would sneak in and spread the virus and in a month it would be everywhere again.




That last point in particular, you hit the nail on the head. Having to deal with selfish individuals who only care about themselves, even during a deadly planetary pandemic. And a couple of excellent points regarding New Zealand. What I just don't get is why other nations can't seem to replicate what Greece is doing. An acquaintance of mine who lives there was a bit upset due to her upcoming exams. She and others have been attending classes regularly with no interruptions it seems. 

It's bizarre.... Map of Europe, with infection running rampant everywhere, except right smack in the middle, at the very bottom. And Greece's northern border is definitely vulnerable to people sneaking in. And yet, covid-19 can't add Greece to its tally of conquered nations. And I have no clue why other world leaders who are friendly with Greece, aren't picking up the phone, calling, and saying, _"Great job with corona. Could you help us out and tell us what you're doing in your country that's so effective?"_


----------



## Monocrom

PhotonWrangler said:


> I was at a store a few weeks ago and 70-80% of the people were wearing masks including all employees. Same store today and that dropped to around 40%. It was mostly younger people not wearing masks. I don't understand why. I've seen several posts where a young person wearing an oxygen tube said "I didn't take it seriously / didn't believe it was real but then I got it."




People want to get back to business as usual. They want the Old Normal back. Especially those who are younger. They just don't get it.... Covid-19 is not on _their_ schedule, _their_ timeline. We are on its. Can't just decide that it's enough now when _they_ want to. Numbers dip a bit for a couple of weeks, everyone thinks "We're good!" 

This is why a 2nd wave of infections spiking is going to be about as shocking and surprising as the Sun rising in the morning. 

My site supervisor at my 3rd shift job showed up just after 1am, today. Place was empty, no one around. He starts talking to me while I was several feet away. Without a word, I turned my back to him, reached over, put on my KN95 mask, turned around, gave him my undivided attention. He didn't bat an eye. Didn't get upset that I literally turned my back to him as he was speaking. He completely understood why I did it. We carried on our work-related conversation for about 20 minutes. Both of us wearing masks, standing several feet apart. He's a young guy. Good to see that he gets it.


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## Whitelight1

Everyone have there shamwow masks? Lol . I have never worn a mask and never will. I am in New Tampa, Florida a real hotspot. I just think everyone needs to realize everyone is going to get it, and the stronger will survive. We all are going to die anyway. Covid or otherwise.


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## turbodog

Don't feed the troll(s) people...


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## KITROBASKIN

Whitelight1 said:


> Everyone have there shamwow masks? Lol . I have never worn a mask and never will. I am in New Tampa, Florida a real hotspot. I just think everyone needs to realize everyone is going to get it, and the stronger will survive. We all are going to die anyway. Covid or otherwise.



What if your local hospital is up to their elbows in Covid cases, and you get hit by a drunk driver. Things are looking bad for you because guess what? Medical personnel are so overwhelmed you bled out. Oh well, you were going to die anyway? Do you have family members counting on you? Oh well, they are going to die anyway? 
Yes the stronger will survive but no need to hurry things along to prove manhood or act out a death wish. Advocating an accelerated infection rate makes you look unappealing to a lot of people for sure. This is not the kind of forum where anonymity allows ugliness.


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## KITROBASKIN

turbodog said:


> Don't feed the troll(s) people...


 You may be right, or this cat may really think his head is on straight and might benefit with a little 'what ifs'. Key here is to not continue with this line of discussion.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Monocrom said:


> That last point in particular, you hit the nail on the head. Having to deal with selfish individuals who only care about themselves, even during a deadly planetary pandemic. And a couple of excellent points regarding New Zealand. What I just don't get is why other nations can't seem to replicate what Greece is doing. An acquaintance of mine who lives there was a bit upset due to her upcoming exams. She and others have been attending classes regularly with no interruptions it seems.
> 
> It's bizarre.... Map of Europe, with infection running rampant everywhere, except right smack in the middle, at the very bottom. And Greece's northern border is definitely vulnerable to people sneaking in. And yet, covid-19 can't add Greece to its tally of conquered nations. And I have no clue why other world leaders who are friendly with Greece, aren't picking up the phone, calling, and saying, _"Great job with corona. Could you help us out and tell us what you're doing in your country that's so effective?"_


Greece has an advantage in that about 3/4 of its boundaries are water and if they can lock down their land border well it should theoretically reduce influx of the virus from outside by a similar amount. I thnk another advantage is it has only 11 million people and a rather large area for that amount so social distancing becomes more "natural" for all but those in packed cities I would figure.
Compare it to the US with 33 times as many people in it and porous borders. One thing I'm wondering is the same people who were against locking down the south border I wonder if they are going to be more silent when people sneak in and bring the virus in with them now.


----------



## SCEMan

Monocrom said:


> People want to get back to business as usual. They want the Old Normal back. Especially those who are younger. They just don't get it.... Covid-19 is not on _their_ schedule, _their_ timeline. We are on its. Can't just decide that it's enough now when _they_ want to. Numbers dip a bit for a couple of weeks, everyone thinks "We're good!"
> 
> This is why a 2nd wave of infections spiking is going to be about as shocking and surprising as the Sun rising in the morning.



Right on target. As I predicted many posts ago when California reopened this would be the case and it's playing out right now. 

Throw in the protests and is it any surprise that: _"Known infections have particularly spiked among younger residents, increasing 44% in just over two weeks for people between 18 to 40 years old, as more spaces in the county reopened for business."

_https://ktla.com/news/local-news/l-...firmed-in-1-day-as-hospitalizations-increase/


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## Lynx_Arc

It is a hard task to convince people with a lot of energy to become couch potatoes.


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## turbodog

KITROBASKIN said:


> You may be right, or this cat may really think his head is on straight and might benefit with a little 'what ifs'. Key here is to not continue with this line of discussion.



Yes, but someone posting stuff like that is not usually open to change their mind. A PM might be better. Their level of ignorance/misinformation is usually high.


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## bykfixer

I said it early in the corona virus 1 thread:
Humans do a helluva good job at spreading disease. 

You reading this, or me or people we know maybe not, as we do our part to slow the spread but the fact still remains that humans do a helluva good job at spreading disease despite the best efforts by many of us. 

"Wash your hands, stay 6' apart, don't touch your face" still applies. Wearing a face covering seems to help. Avoiding crowds seems to help too.


----------



## SilverFox

Here is an interesting perspective of the progress so far.

https://rt.live/

Tom


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## turbodog

SilverFox said:


> Here is an interesting perspective of the progress so far.
> 
> https://rt.live/
> 
> Tom



I've been watching that site for months now, comparing against worldometer stats and so on. With R0<1, it should be dying out, but the infection numbers don't reflect that. They are increasing exponentially. It's a _slow_ exponential, but steady.

Mind you I'm talking about one particular state, but the same rules still apply.


----------



## Dave D

Monocrom said:


> It's bizarre.... Map of Europe, with infection running rampant everywhere, except right smack in the middle, at the very bottom. And Greece's northern border is definitely vulnerable to people sneaking in. And yet, covid-19 can't add Greece to its tally of conquered nations. And I have no clue why other world leaders who are friendly with Greece, aren't picking up the phone, calling, and saying, _"Great job with corona. Could you help us out and tell us what you're doing in your country that's so effective?"_



It's a small Country with a population of only 11 million, the outbreak started in winter when Greece has little tourism. I don't know how popular it is with Chinese visitors, especially in winter, but as the tourist season is about to reopen then things may change rapidly in Greece.


----------



## Monocrom

Lynx_Arc said:


> Greece has an advantage in that about 3/4 of its boundaries are water and if they can lock down their land border well it should theoretically reduce influx of the virus from outside by a similar amount. I thnk another advantage is it has only 11 million people and a rather large area for that amount so social distancing becomes more "natural" for all but those in packed cities I would figure.
> Compare it to the US with 33 times as many people in it and porous borders. One thing I'm wondering is the same people who were against locking down the south border I wonder if they are going to be more silent when people sneak in and bring the virus in with them now.




I'm wondering the same thing.

One thing about Greece I do know, guys in Haz-mat suits are regularly spraying down city streets to help keep the infection at bay. America is definitely bigger, but I sure as heck don't see men in Haz-mat suits spraying down sections of New York city (or any city) on a regular basis. A coordinated effort to do so in sections would realistically be feasible. I mean, clearly it's working. And, America has a numerous boatloads more resources and money than Greece. Just seems that much more could be done, but our mayors and governors just aren't putting in their best efforts. Maybe that's not true. But it sure as heck seems that way.


----------



## Monocrom

Dave D said:


> It's a small Country with a population of only 11 million, the outbreak started in winter when Greece has little tourism. I don't know how popular it is with Chinese visitors, especially in winter, but as the tourist season is about to reopen then things may change rapidly in Greece.



Their leaders have stayed on top of the virus. There are smaller countries in terms of population size which have been ravaged by covid-19. If you count The Vatican City as a country with just under 800 people in it, then Greece is roughly #14 on a list of 49 European countries in total. (Going from highest population size to lowest.) But I agree that it'll be interesting to see how Greece handles the tourist season, if their leaders even let any tourists in this year.


----------



## raggie33

this is what i wear https://youtu.be/uJlhwWFAAxI


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Monocrom said:


> I'm wondering the same thing.
> 
> One thing about Greece I do know, guys in Haz-mat suits are regularly spraying down city streets to help keep the infection at bay. America is definitely bigger, but I sure as heck don't see men in Haz-mat suits spraying down sections of New York city (or any city) on a regular basis. A coordinated effort to do so in sections would realistically be feasible. I mean, clearly it's working. And, America has a numerous boatloads more resources and money than Greece. Just seems that much more could be done, but our mayors and governors just aren't putting in their best efforts. Maybe that's not true. But it sure as heck seems that way.



I have a feeling sanitizing streets and such is a waste of money as probably very few people get the virus from surfaces and even if you pick it up from a surface washing your hands would defeat it infecting you. Investing money in temperature sensors to detect fevers in people probably would be a better use of money.


----------



## Monocrom

raggie33 said:


> this is what i wear https://youtu.be/uJlhwWFAAxI



I _mostly_ think you're joking. If not....

PM me. I'll send you a free mask (a good one). Really good filter too. 

Seriously, I've got enough unused washable/re-usable, hand-sewn masks to bury a mountain underneath them.


----------



## Monocrom

Lynx_Arc said:


> I have a feeling sanitizing streets and such is a waste of money as probably very few people get the virus from surfaces and even if you pick it up from a surface washing your hands would defeat it infecting you. Investing money in temperature sensors to detect fevers in people probably would be a better use of money.




Those are important, that's true. I just see it as, World leaders should look at all the measures Greece is employing. Get some very intelligent and educated individuals to study those measures. (I'd say let the WHO handle that, but they've shown themselves to be surprisingly incompetent.) Figure out which measures are most effective. Then spend money on those to battle back against covid-19, effectively.


----------



## bigburly912

Monocrom said:


> Those are important, that's true. I just see it as, World leaders should look at all the measures Greece is employing. Get some very intelligent and educated individuals to study those measures. (I'd say let the WHO handle that, but they've shown themselves to be surprisingly incompetent.) Figure out which measures are most effective. Then spend money on those to battle back against covid-19, effectively.



Taiwan has had the most amazing response by far.


----------



## raggie33

Monocrom said:


> I _mostly_ think you're joking. If not....
> 
> PM me. I'll send you a free mask (a good one). Really good filter too.
> 
> Seriously, I've got enough unused washable/re-usable, hand-sewn masks to bury a mountain underneath them.



yeah im jokeing i have a cheap dispoable mask i just reuse it. i assume long as im the only one wearing it i should be fine. only draw back of my mask is if i breath hard from walking or running the mask moves with my breathing


----------



## PhotonWrangler

Regarding those who won't wear masks, I ran across this statement today - 

"The fragility of folks who won’t wear a mask is truly breathtaking. I lived for four years inside two internment camps, and I heard less bitching and whining there than I do today."

-_George Takei (Sulu from Star Trek) today on Twitter._


----------



## Lynx_Arc

PhotonWrangler said:


> Regarding those who won't wear masks, I ran across this statement today -
> 
> "The fragility of folks who won’t wear a mask is truly breathtaking. I lived for four years inside two internment camps, and I heard less bitching and whining there than I do today."
> 
> -_George Takei (Sulu from Star Trek) today on Twitter._


Regarding those people who now wear a mask because it is the "right" thing to do, and because it "protects" people from dying... how many years in the past have you not been wearing any mask passing on viruses and the flu never knowing if someone gets it from you and passes on to someone who dies because you were not masked? Why is it today suddenly people masking is noble and such but in the past nobody did it?


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

PhotonWrangler said:


> Regarding those who won't wear masks, I ran across this statement today -
> 
> "The fragility of folks who won’t wear a mask is truly breathtaking. I lived for four years inside two internment camps, and I heard less bitching and whining there than I do today."
> 
> -_George Takei (Sulu from Star Trek) today on Twitter._



Apples to oranges. A different time and much different people. The Japanese are very a very prideful people. They don't tend to ***** and wine. 

Ask Mr. Takei about folks refusing to stop the behavior causing the rampant spread of Aids during the 80's. I wonder if he found their reasons to also be breathtaking.  ...... Just sayin.


----------



## raggie33

ive only had the flu once and a cold maybe 4 times. but im crazy about avoiding germs.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> Apples to oranges. A different time and much different people. The Japanese are very a very prideful people. They don't tend to ***** and wine.
> 
> Ask Mr. Takei about folks refusing to stop the behavior causing the rampant spread of Aids during the 80's. I wonder if he found their reasons to also be breathtaking.  ...... Just sayin.


Well if you ask me his making a statement IS whining about people whining.


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

Lynx_Arc said:


> Well if you ask me his making a statement IS whining about people whining.



Actually, I was just about to ask you your thinking.


----------



## bigburly912

Lynx_Arc said:


> Regarding those people who now wear a mask because it is the "right" thing to do, and because it "protects" people from dying... how many years in the past have you not been wearing any mask passing on viruses and the flu never knowing if someone gets it from you and passes on to someone who dies because you were not masked? Why is it today suddenly people masking is noble and such but in the past nobody did it?



I asked this about 1376 posts ago, granted I may be the last man in southwest Virginia/northeast tennessee/eastern Kentucky that wears one and people look at me like I’m an alien.


----------



## SCEMan

Los Angeles County just closed the beaches for the 4th in response to the wave of new infections.

_"L.A. County reports 2,903 new COVID-19 cases, highest number ever since the pandemic hit. Health officials said 1 in 140 people infected with the virus are “walking around not knowing they are infected,” a threefold increase from the 1 in 400 projection given just last week."_


https://ktla.com/news/local-news/l-...est-number-ever-since-pandemic-hit-officials/


----------



## SCEMan

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> Apples to oranges. A different time and much different people. The Japanese are very a very prideful people. They don't tend to ***** and w(h)ine.



Very true. My ex-Mother In Law was interned at Manzanar during the war while her future husband was in Europe with the 442nd Regimental Combat Team. I never heard her complain about her experience, even when we visited there in the 1980s.


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

^  Too much Saki for me.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

bigburly912 said:


> I asked this about 1376 posts ago, granted I may be the last man in southwest Virginia/northeast tennessee/eastern Kentucky that wears one and people look at me like I’m an alien.



As long as you have a "reason" to wear one I've got absolutely no problem with that unless I'm deaf and you are don't know sign language.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

SCEMan said:


> Los Angeles County just closed the beaches for the 4th in response to the wave of new infections.
> 
> _"L.A. County reports 2,903 new COVID-19 cases, highest number ever since the pandemic hit. Health officials said 1 in 140 people infected with the virus are “walking around not knowing they are infected,” a threefold increase from the 1 in 400 projection given just last week."_
> 
> 
> https://ktla.com/news/local-news/l-...est-number-ever-since-pandemic-hit-officials/


They canceled the 4th of July fireworks display here and Octoberfest also due to virus concerns...... there will be more shutdowns and cancellations to keep those numbers looking good for the guys in charge.


----------



## nbp

If there’s one thing I’ve learned during this pandemic, it’s that the USA appears to be extraordinarily hard to govern. I can’t imagine trying to preside over a large population that wants a government that provides all the protections and safeguards and quick sweeping action of a large authoritarian government while still maintaining a high level of personal freedom. Look around; that’s not how it works. High personal autonomy = high personal responsibility. High govt. control/safety/protection/intervention = low personal autonomy. It’s not necessarily that one is always better than the other, but you have to pick. You can’t really have both. If you want someone to take care of you and solve your problems, they will ask something back. 

“If you’re good at something, never do it for free.” - The Joker


----------



## bykfixer




----------



## bigburly912

Lynx_Arc said:


> As long as you have a "reason" to wear one I've got absolutely no problem with that unless I'm deaf and you are don't know sign language.



My dad as well as most of the older men in my community has black lung and my wife is a FNP that sees at least 20 patients a day. I hope that meets your standards.


----------



## turbodog

nbp said:


> If there’s one thing I’ve learned during this pandemic, it’s that the USA appears to be extraordinarily hard to govern. I can’t imagine trying to preside over a large population that wants a government that provides all the protections and safeguards and quick sweeping action of a large authoritarian government while still maintaining a high level of personal freedom. Look around; that’s not how it works. High personal autonomy = high personal responsibility. High govt. control/safety/protection/intervention = low personal autonomy. It’s not necessarily that one is always better than the other, but you have to pick. You can’t really have both. If you want someone to take care of you and solve your problems, they will ask something back.
> 
> “If you’re good at something, never do it for free.” - The Joker




People forget that the USA is the united STATES of america. That's 50 governors, state governments, state boards of health, etc.

In addition, there's a huge movement to not trust experts, and not just in the US. I'm reading 'the death of expertise' currently... fascinating and unsettling.


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## bykfixer

The great experiment called America was once largely made up of self sufficient people who just wanted to have the chance to prosper in their own way and be left alone to do so. I call it the pre Tom Horne era. A time when 3 meals a day was a blessing for a majority. Post Tom Horne things changed due to the Industrial age. The cross country rail system played a big role. So did imigration to cities instead of farms. 

After the Great Depression came government assistance. And that's where the we now face began to really change things. The Spanish flu hit shortly after the Tom Horne era and big cities were hit hard, just like with this pandemic. But during the Spanish flu word of mouth was the communication channel. That and newspapers. When radio came along that increased communication amongst the people. And much like today, face coverings was a contreversial subject. Only back then a huge percentage of the so called smart people were against them. Doctors, lawyers, judges etc were aligned against the use of face coverings. Especially in enlightened communities like San Fransico where freedom was paramount. East Coasters wore them faithfully so the populice there were largely spared round 3 of the Spanish flu while San Fransisco was hit like an atomic bomb due to a large influx of imigrants escaping oppressive governments and a general sense that masks were stupid. 

Today we know better. But freedom is still much on the minds of plenty of Americans. Many of who refuse to be corraled by government leaders. Especially the "do as I say not as I do" type. I'm in that camp. But I also know the practical applications regarding face coverings so I wear mine at times to (voluntarily) play a part in reducing the spread knowing it's like trying to grab wind. If someone gives me the stink eye at a check out counter for wearing one, so be it. If someone gives me the stink for not wearing one when I'm 25' from others, again so be it. 

Am I going to wear one from my house to my car? Nope. Am I going to when I'm near people not in my small circle? Yup.

BTW, Tom Horne was a cowboy who played a large role in taming the west for wealthy city dwellers to hang him later for doing the job they hired him to do. One of Steve McQueens last movies was called Tom Horne. A great story of a time when America began to change to what it is today.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

bigburly912 said:


> My dad as well as most of the older men in my community has black lung and my wife is a FNP that sees at least 20 patients a day. I hope that meets your standards.


My standards are very low, and include things like "I'm afraid of getting it" or "I think it is a good idea". The only excuse that kind of fails for me is "everybody is doing it" as I don't think we should play lemmings on anything blindly if you do anything do it because you "think" first not because of peer pressure.


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## bigburly912

Caught wind today that another swine type flu is spreading in Asia.


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## turbodog

bigburly912 said:


> Caught wind today that another swine type flu is spreading in Asia.



So if that's breaking news, can we just say you 'broke wind' today?


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## bigburly912

turbodog said:


> So if that's breaking news, can we just say you 'broke wind' today?



Sure. Just google new swine flu in Asia has pandemic possibility and choose whichever fake news outlet you enjoy the most. That’s what I just did and apparently it’s been going on for a few days.


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## Lynx_Arc

bigburly912 said:


> Sure. Just google new swine flu in Asia has pandemic possibility and choose whichever fake news outlet you enjoy the most. That’s what I just did and apparently it’s been going on for a few days.


Sooner or later it will sneak over here and go on a second rampage. Hopefully it won't be as contagious and deadly as this Covid 19 thing.


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## Monocrom

bigburly912 said:


> Taiwan has had the most amazing response by far.



Another nation doing a great job. Sadly, those nations that are; clearly the exception to the rule. I love Taiwan's national mask policy. Each citizen gets an allotment of 3 surgical masks per week. Some citizens buy one cotton face mask cover for inserting a surgical mask into it. Thus ever so slightly increasing the longevity of each surgical mask. And, the government keeps very strict tabs on the allotment. Has worked exceptionally well. Too bad the WHO is busy _not_ recognizing Taiwan as an independent nation, due to political reasons.


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## bigburly912

Monocrom said:


> Another nation doing a great job. Sadly, those nations that are; clearly the exception to the rule. I love Taiwan's national mask policy. Each citizen gets an allotment of 3 surgical masks per week. Some citizens buy one cotton face mask cover for inserting a surgical mask into it. Thus ever so slightly increasing the longevity of each surgical mask. And, the government keeps very strict tabs on the allotment. Has worked exceptionally well. Too bad the WHO is busy _not_ recognizing Taiwan as an independent nation, due to political reasons.



If the mask thing has worked so well what happened to China? They wore masks before this pandemic started. I’ve not heard anyone mention that.


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## Lynx_Arc

Personally I think the distancing may do a better job than masks do that is probably why countries that shut down completely quarantining people to their homes have a better record than those who don't and mask up with large populations in small areas. 
Also there is not enough surgical (N95?) masks to accommodate our population here almost all of them are allocated to medical personnel. 
I think there is too much opinion and not enough factual and statistical info on the effectiveness of masks with and without social distancing that can be trusted. It may be masks are better than nothing especially when closer than 6' but when you get farther from 6' masks become statistically unneeded for all but people who do have symptoms.


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## Monocrom

raggie33 said:


> yeah im jokeing i have a cheap dispoable mask i just reuse it. i assume long as im the only one wearing it i should be fine. only draw back of my mask is if i breath hard from walking or running the mask moves with my breathing



A whole heck of a lot of trial and error on my part (and wasted money) has caused me to realize that the best non-commercially made masks have two features which are a MUST. 

1 - _*Nose-wire (or Nose-bridge)*._ You can adjust it to keep a mask from sliding around on your face. Great for when you're active or just talking to someone. Really helps to get that proper fit on a person's individual face. Also, without it, every time a person exhales through their nose; that carbon dioxide hits them right in the eyes because there's no nose-wire to block the flow. That's why glasses fog up all the time. Not an issue for me. But a good friend of mine is legally blind without his glasses. Can't be having them fogging up on him all the time.

2 - _*Filter pocket*._ And have plenty of good filters on hand. Such as a PM2.5 disposable filter. Easiest way to make a pocket, two layers of fabric with an opening at one or both ends of the mask. Fabric doesn't even need to be thick. I have a few masks where each layer is literally see-through! Sandwich a good filter in between them, and you get a surprisingly comfortable mask to wear during the Summer months. An incredibly thin mask is fine, just as long as there's a filter in there. 

I'm done buying masks that don't have those two features.


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## idleprocess

Monocrom said:


> 1 - *Nose-wire (or Nose-bridge)*. You can adjust it to keep a mask from sliding around on your face. Great for when you're active or just talking to someone. Really helps to get that proper fit on a person's individual face. Also, without it, every time a person exhales through their nose; that carbon dioxide hits them right in the eyes because there's no nose-wire to block the flow. *That's why glasses fog up all the time. Not an issue for me. But a good friend of mine is legally blind without his glasses. Can't be having them fogging up on him all the time.*



How I wish this were the case. Alas, nose bridge or no all the masks I've tried fog glasses like that's their design purpose and all the workarounds I've come across are seem like they're devised by people that don't actually wear glasses, are unnaturally fastidious, or have all the time in the world to endlessly futz with things.

I just need something that's _don-and-go_ that doesn't fog glasses. If my employer ends WFH and I've got to wear a mask all day, the solution is probably going to be one of those soft half-face respirators with those dreaded exhale valves because I am *not* going to subject myself to ineffectual burdensome workarounds for 9-10 hours a day.


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## Monocrom

bigburly912 said:


> If the mask thing has worked so well what happened to China? They wore masks before this pandemic started. I’ve not heard anyone mention that.



I'll mention it. You're right. The problem is, you can't just wear masks and ignore other measures. You've got to put them all together. For example, you can forget about social distancing in China's highly populated and very cramped cities where most of the jobs are. Apartment space is at a premium. Many landlords convert rooms meant for one person into those that house as many as four or more. Thus charging what is considered by many of those workers in the cities, to be; well.... not too obscene rent rates. When you have people packed in literally like sardines in a can, one infected person can easily infect an entire building's worth of residents. 

Hong Kong by far being the absolute worst example of this type of housing. Here's a video that illustrates exactly what I mean:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jr9XRmWNpfw


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## bigburly912

Lynx_Arc said:


> I think there is too much opinion and not enough factual and statistical info



You win the internet for the day sir.


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## Monocrom

idleprocess said:


> How I wish this were the case. Alas, nose bridge or no all the masks I've tried fog glasses like that's their design purpose and all the workarounds I've come across are seem like they're devised by people that don't actually wear glasses, are unnaturally fastidious, or have all the time in the world to endlessly futz with things.
> 
> I just need something that's _don-and-go_ that doesn't fog glasses. If my employer ends WFH and I've got to wear a mask all day, the solution is probably going to be one of those soft half-face respirators with those dreaded exhale valves because I am *not* going to subject myself to ineffectual burdensome workarounds for 9-10 hours a day.




Sorry, should have mentioned that there's different types of nose-wires. Unfortunately, you usually find out which one was built into a mask after buying it. Some are actual, thin little copper or brass wires that need a long time to adjust and sometimes even then you get fogging. Some seamstresses though use thicker and wider wires. The kind you get on an N95 or KN95 mask. Those work much better. Takes about literally 2 seconds to adjust. Instead of 30 seconds to a minute. But there's also everything in between those two extremes.


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## idleprocess

Monocrom said:


> Sorry, should have mentioned that there's different types of nose-wires. Unfortunately, you usually find out which one was built into a mask after buying it. Some are actual, thin little wires copper or brass wires that need a long time to adjust and sometimes even then you get fogging. Some seamstresses though use thicker and wider wires. The kind you get on an N95 or KN95 mask. Those work much better. Take about literally 2 seconds to adjust. instead of 30 seconds to a minute. But there's also everything in between those two extremes.



Got some mass-produced KN95s with the metal strip - doesn't do jack for me.


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## Monocrom

idleprocess said:


> Got some mass-produced K95s with the metal strip - doesn't do jack for me.



Sorry to hear that. I used to have one N95 when the virus hit here. Nose-wire on it worked well to keep my sunglasses from fogging up. Recently got in a handful of FFP2 masks from Europe. (94% effective compared to 95% for N95s.) The ones I got in look like N95 clones. Also good at preventing fogging. Unfortunately that seller seems to be currently out of stock. And yes, those FFP2s were obscenely expensive.


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## raggie33

this is pretty scary if you ask me https://www.wbtv.com/2020/06/29/demonstration-aims-show-effectiveness-masks/


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## bykfixer

Tired of the ordinary mask

Here's some ideas…
https://www.demilked.com/funny-coronavirus-diy-masks/


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## Greta

Finally broke down and went to get my nails done today. I made the appt. last week so had no idea what yesterday was going to bring to our world. Well... as of last night, 8PM, all of our bars that are not 60/40 food/alcohol had to shut down. So... out of the cigar bar AGAIN for a minimum of 30 days. Mind you my city had ZERO new covid cases the day before. But because a city 200 miles away is exploding, well... here we are. So back to my nail appt... I have a couple of those stocking type masks for when we go out cruising in the slingshot in dusty or inclement weather so grabbed one just in case. It wasn't needed. The salon had been completely outfitted with Plexiglas at all stations and the employees all wore masks. I was told if I didn't feel comfortable wearing one, it was perfectly ok. Got my nails did, chatted with the nail tech, a pleasant time was had by all. Then I went to the grocery store next door. Still didn't pull up my mask from around my neck... probably 75/25 in the store NOT wearing masks. Everyone was pleasant, seemed content, loved seeing smiles instead of desperate eyes above uncomfortable, ill-fitting, incorrectly-worn masks. Then I came across a table in an aisle full of all kinds of masks - 10 packs of surgical masks, cloth masks for adults and children - all in sterile sealed packets. I grabbed a couple just because. When I got home, I discovered online that two of the major cities in my county will be going to mandatory masks for all customers and employees starting at 1AM tomorrow morning. I'm waiting now for the announcement to come out for my town. I'm glad I picked up those masks... but honestly doubt I will be using them. I'm just going to stay home... and be very very sad that this is where we are... and me with a brand new set of beautiful nails... :sigh:


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## turbodog

bykfixer said:


> Tired of the ordinary mask
> 
> Here's some ideas…
> https://www.demilked.com/funny-coronavirus-diy-masks/



14 is the best one.


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## turbodog

Greta said:


> ...When I got home, I discovered online that two of the major cities in my county will be going to mandatory masks for all customers and employees starting at 1AM tomorrow morning. I'm waiting now for the announcement to come out for my town. I'm glad I picked up those masks...



Good thing you got some. I think masks are going to become mandatory nationwide eventually. Reminder that we are _maybe_ 25% through this thing, and then schools start back in ~5 weeks.

I took some of the 100k masks that my customer got and am dying/coloring them this evening so it won't look like I'm wearing underwear on my head. They are the best fitting, most comfortable ones I've seen. Guess if hanes can make clothing that fits bulges, nooks, and crannies then a simple facemask is easy for them.


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## Greta

I guess my thing is that wearing a mask is to make those around you feel better... while you feel worse - sweating like a pig, breathing in your own CO2... more like gasping it!, anxiety going through the roof, glasses fogging up - but hey! If it makes everyone else FEEL better... suck it up, right? Sorry... not sorry. I'm just not into sadomasochism.


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## raggie33

edited my post just in case it is not allowed


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## Poppy

turbodog said:


> Good thing you got some. I think masks are going to become mandatory nationwide eventually. Reminder that we are _maybe_ 25% through this thing, and *then schools start back in ~5 weeks.*
> 
> I took some of the 100k masks that my customer got and am dying/coloring them this evening so it won't look like I'm wearing underwear on my head. They are the best fitting, most comfortable ones I've seen. Guess if hanes can make clothing that fits bulges, nooks, and crannies then a simple facemask is easy for them.


I don't get it how they think opening schools is going to be ok.

50 people at a party starts the spread, 50-100 people at a bar and there are alarms going off.

Many High Schools have over 1,000 students.

Grammar schools, 400 to 1000 students, in a single building.

Anyone who thinks that is not going to be a problem is kidding himself.


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## turbodog

It's _all_ a problem, just take your pick. They don't think it's ok. We are in the 'whack a mole' phase, or soon will be. Cross your fingers for a treatment protocol, mutation that lessens the deadliness, some sort of cheap self-administered test, or a vaccine.


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## raggie33

watching agt there is no humans in the seats at all


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## PhotonWrangler

Which types of masks are best at stopping airborne droplets. Bonus: lasers.


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## wacbzz

The honest problem here is that we are the United _States_ of America; because there is no leadership on this situation _nationally_, we have 50 states plus territories that are doing their own thing. I liken it to trying to register a vehicle in Michigan versus trying to register the same vehicle in Georgia; two states dictating their own “This is how we do it” rules rather than a national “this is how it’s done” rule. Chaos. The Coronavirus is no different. Direct, from the top leadership on this virus is nowhere to be found, so, you get what we’ve got now, which, of course, and as expected, is a _significant _rise in cases amongst those that thought themselves “immune” or in places with the mentality of “we’re in decline so we can go back to the way it was before.” All of this was not unexpected, and rather, predicted. 

So, here we are.

Sorry about your nails Greta. Had the people in your state heeded the many prior warnings and earlier taken the “us” road instead of the “me and mine” road, you might have had a place to go to show off your new nails.


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## raggie33

https://youtu.be/6kOesPt7iBY


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## turbodog

From watching states reopen, followed by the rise in cases it looks like casual mask usage combined with physical distancing and no stupid indoor gatherings keep the rate low enough for healthcare to absorb.

We had seen mask usage go from 95% down to 20% with no significant rise in cases. But then our state saw some parties, some memorial day stuff, and then cases rose.


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## Greta

wacbzz said:


> .....
> 
> Sorry about your nails Greta. Had the people in your state heeded the many prior warnings and earlier taken the “us” road instead of the “me and mine” road, you might have had a place to go to show off your new nails.



We've been doing just fine in my county. Even with every weekend seeing thousands (no exaggeration) flocking in from out of state and other hot-spot parts of the state. Arizona is getting a bad rap but in truth it is only ONE county that is out of control right now - and that is over 200 miles from me. Everyone here feels our mayor should close down the launch ramps and the lake but he has no authority to do that considering half of it is controlled by California. Things are not as cut and dry as everyone would like to think. Some things are indeed VERY complicated! It's easy to point a finger and say there is no direction or control from the top but the truth of the matter is, in this instance, the "top" is the governor of each individual state. And your analogy of registering a vehicle is spot on. There is no standardization and honestly I am glad. There is no reason for my county to be treated the same as New York City. And there is no reason for my county to be treated like Phoenix either. Again... my county is the 6th largest county in the United States... and we still only have 1071 confirmed positive cases.


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## raggie33

Greta said:


> We've been doing just fine in my county. Even with every weekend seeing thousands (no exaggeration) flocking in from out of state and other hot-spot parts of the state. Arizona is getting a bad rap but in truth it is only ONE county that is out of control right now - and that is over 200 miles from me. Everyone here feels our mayor should close down the launch ramps and the lake but he has no authority to do that considering half of it is controlled by California. Things are not as cut and dry as everyone would like to think. Some things are indeed VERY complicated! It's easy to point a finger and say there is no direction or control from the top but the truth of the matter is, in this instance, the "top" is the governor of each individual state. And your analogy of registering a vehicle is spot on. There is no standardization and honestly I am glad. There is no reason for my county to be treated the same as New York City. And there is no reason for my county to be treated like Phoenix either. Again... my county is the 6th largest county in the United States... and we still only have 1071 confirmed positive cases.


ill trade my lake for yours sasha. they call are lake death lake most belive in haunted


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## Greta

raggie33 said:


> ill trade my lake for yours sasha. they call are lake death lake most belive in haunted



My lake is actually a section of the Colorado River. A part of the river was diverted to flow through a channel under the reconstructed London Bridge - the same one Jack the Ripper committed some of his murders under!! oo:


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## raggie33

Greta said:


> My lake is actually a section of the Colorado River. A part of the river was diverted to flow through a channel under the reconstructed London Bridge - the same one Jack the Ripper committed some of his murders under!! oo:



dang sounds as scary as my lake. it will be insane on the 4th


----------



## scout24

Direct, from the top down leadership has existed from January on. Dr. Faucci, who's been with the CDC since the late 1960's, and Dr. Birx, have issued guidelines to be followed based on best thinking and what was known at the time. Greta's point re: no standardization is spot on- the good people in Fargo, North Dakota don't need to follow the same precautions as the good people in NYC. Local leadership based on conditions on the ground should, and have been, adapted to the guidance given. If one's not a fan of that guidance, and wants to do more to protect themselves based on their beliefs, nobody is stopping them.


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## bykfixer

South Korea reaction to a pandemic was kinda like "let's look out for our elders".
America reaction is "where's my free vaccine, hurry up". 

In my state we begin phase 3 today (whatever that means). To a closed business owner it's probably a great day. To a UPS driver it's just July 1st. So today could mean a whole lot different to some. 

Some feel the US government should have treated the pandemic like an invasion from Mars. Others say it was best left to states while Uncle Sam provides extra supplies when and where needed. 

Some say being required to wear a mask is going too far. Others say "about time they did it". 

Some say let herd immunity accelarate. Some say stop the spread until there's a cure. 

Thing is, in America we get to do that. 

Wash your hands, stay 6 feet apart, don't touch your face, cover your face when not 6' apart and we will all get through this. 
Oh, and turn off the dab-blame news for a week and see how much better you feel.


----------



## Monocrom

Just learned that our governor here in New York, along with several others governors in America, has been actively petitioning the President to make mandatory mask wearing a nationwide thing. Guess we'll see if they make any headway in that endeavor.

*Edit:*
Honestly not sure if the main reason they're doing so is because they believe it will help to save lives. Or, come re-election time, they can all pass the buck (and the blame) to someone else if such a measure ultimately proves to be unpopular with most voters in the long run.


----------



## Poppy

Monocrom said:


> Just learned that our governor here in New York, along with several others governors in America, has been actively petitioning the President to make mandatory mask wearing a nationwide thing. Guess we'll see if they make any headway in that endeavor.
> 
> *Edit:*
> Honestly not sure if the main reason they're doing so is because they believe it will help to save lives. Or, come re-election time, they can all pass the buck (and the blame) to someone else if such a measure ultimately proves to be unpopular with most voters in the long run.


Governor Cuomo is the governor of New York.
During one of his daily briefings a couple of days ago said:


> Governor Cuomo: "The President can do two things. First, sign an executive order directing everyone to wear a mask. How we're at this point as a nation and we still haven't done the simple, easy, minimal step of saying you must wear a mask when you're in public? The President doesn't have to pass a piece of legislation, doesn't have to call the Congress, just sign an executive order saying wear a mask."
> Cuomo: "Then let the President lead by example and let the President put a mask on it because we know it works. We've proven that it works in the State of New York."


https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/vi...-president-trump-lead-example-and-put-mask-it

But back in the middle of April, when Trump stated he would tell the governors when to open their states, Cuomo's response was in part, there would be a Constitutional challenge:
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/po...-trump-tries-reopen-new-york-then-we-n1183341



> Cuomo said Trump’s statement was "wrong," according to the Constitution. The authority to require businesses to close in a public health crisis is a "police power," and it is reserved by the Constitution for the states, not the federal government, experts told NBC News.
> "We don't have a king — we have a president, and that was a big decision," Cuomo said. "We ran away from having a king, and George Washington was president, not King Washington so the president doesn't have total authority. The Constitution is there, the 10th Amendment is there. ... It's very clear states have power by the 10th amendment."




So in my opinion, Cuomo is being a little cute. On one hand promoting local rule, and the other pushing for an unpopular Nation-wide Executive order. Especially when within his own state, he has different levels of restrictions.


----------



## bykfixer

PhotonWrangler said:


> Which types of masks are best at stopping airborne droplets. Bonus: lasers.



Comparing smoke to water droplets is like comparing apples to basketballs. Smoke is a gas, right? Droplets a liquid? Add a virus particle and perhaps call that a solid? 

In my line of work we pressure test waterlines with water at 150psi. We test sewer lines with air (a gas) at 4 psi because air escapes much easier than water (a liquid). 

Now the point was made in that article though that a face covering, even basic cloth like a hanky or t-shirt definitely reduces distance travelled by items expelled from our mouth and nose. Point well taken. 

Now this mask or no mask debate also occured during the Spanish flu period. And it was just as heated back then and largely for the same reason. Many back then did not want to be told by elected people to wear a face covering. Only back then there was no instantanious mass media bullying people (on either side of the debate) like there is today. 

Here's some historical stuff from circa 1916 to 1920
https://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/photos-from-the-1918-spanish-flu-pandemic/


----------



## raggie33

herman cain sadly will pass away from covid 19 . at his age it will be very hard to survive . im bummed i liked him i would of voted for him for potus


----------



## bigburly912

raggie33 said:


> herman cain sadly will pass away from covid 19 . at his age it will be very hard to survive . im bummed i liked him i would of voted for him for potus



What? He’s not even on a ventilator is he? He beat stage 4 cancer he’s a tough old bird.


----------



## turbodog

scout24 said:


> ... the good people in Fargo, North Dakota don't need to follow the same precautions as the good people in NYC. Local leadership based on conditions on the ground should, and have been, adapted to the guidance given. ...



I think it's important to point out that ND and NY need to follow the same precautions, NY just needs them first. As we see, eventually this thing 'blows up', even in the states that thought they were immune due to heat, humidity, rural population, etc.

Florida has reached the limit, or close to it, of its testing capacity. I just heard from my cousin, a MD in AL, that all his clinics and hospitals he is responsible for are almost at their testing limits either due to scarcity of reagents or not enough machines to run tests.


----------



## Monocrom

raggie33 said:


> herman cain sadly will pass away from covid 19 . at his age it will be very hard to survive . im bummed i liked him i would of voted for him for potus



One of the very few politicians I respect. Hoping you are wrong about him not surviving.


----------



## Whitelight1

KITROBASKIN said:


> What if your local hospital is up to their elbows in Covid cases, and you get hit by a drunk driver. Things are looking bad for you because guess what? Medical personnel are so overwhelmed you bled out. Oh well, you were going to die anyway? Do you have family members counting on you? Oh well, they are going to die anyway?
> Yes the stronger will survive but no need to hurry things along to prove manhood or act out a death wish. Advocating an accelerated infection rate makes you look unappealing to a lot of people for sure. This is not the kind of forum where anonymity allows ugliness.



I am not worried about Covid-19 sir. I am not advocating an accelerated infection rate, as this is not a stoppable disease no matter the restrictions or mandates.

We do not wear a masks in the office, and this is in an attorney's office none the less. The other attorney is in his 50's who spent his life in the Air Force, retired and became an attorney. Some of our clients do wear masks, some do not. Yesterday we literally had a man who was scared to die, and voiced that to us in a closed door meeting yet he wore no mask and just said sneeze the other way if the need was to arise.

As a side note, no I do not have anyone who depends on me and my head is on straight, I can almost promise you that. Thank you for your concern. I will move on from this thread, as everyone has strong differing opinions about this issue and I certainly do not belong in this thread.


----------



## RetroTechie

wacbzz said:


> Sorry about your nails Greta.


Why? She got her nails done fine if I read correctly.  Besides: if getting one's nails done is on the "to do" list, things are pretty much fine right?


----------



## Poppy

Last night I was watching the BBC news, and they were complaining about the unfair practices of the US in that it was buying up all the remdesivir.

On one hand I thought... good for us, on the other hand, we complained that China bought up all of the PPE before they released info about the virus.

Here is a link that I found that speaks to the subject.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-53254487


----------



## Dave D

Greta said:


> My lake is actually a section of the Colorado River. A part of the river was diverted to flow through a channel under the reconstructed London Bridge - the same one Jack the Ripper committed some of his murders under!! oo:



I think you are getting confused with the David Hasselhoff movie 'Bridge Across Time'! 

There were no murders attributed to Jack the Ripper under London Bridge, but such a myth probably helps to generate visitors!


----------



## Poppy

The 4th of July weekend is upon us.

I hope everyone has an enjoyable weekend at home or nearby, and keeps their distance, to stay safe, from the virus.
:drunk: 
No drinking and driving. :twothumbs:


----------



## KITROBASKIN

That post #1640 from Whitelight1 was certainly articulate. Still thinking it is appropriate/considerate to mask-up for the sake of others. Unfortunately, the curve in USA is not doing what was hoped so we can provide a more effective learning environment for our elementary students this upcoming school year, as opposed to the online stuff that was not so good during the lockdown. Right now state guidance is mandating a hybrid online/in person split shift version with some families choosing total online experience. If things go well, a more tried and true setup will be phased in but still no mass lunchtime or recess. 

Meanwhile, this: Science finds that being kind pays off

https://apnews.com/f487b63befb2f4c3...rch shows that acts of,hard-wired to be kind.

"And she said in upcoming studies, she’s found more antiviral genes in people who performed acts of kindness."


----------



## turbodog

KITROBASKIN said:


> That post #1640 from Whitelight1 was certainly articulate. Still thinking it is appropriate/considerate to mask-up for the sake of others. Unfortunately, the curve in USA is not doing what was hoped so we can provide a more effective learning environment for our elementary students this upcoming school year, as opposed to the online stuff that was not so good during the lockdown. Right now state guidance is mandating a hybrid online/in person split shift version with some families choosing total online experience. If things go well, a more tried and true setup will be phased in but still no mass lunchtime or recess.
> 
> Meanwhile, this: Science finds that being kind pays off
> 
> https://apnews.com/f487b63befb2f4c3...rch shows that acts of,hard-wired to be kind.
> 
> "And she said in upcoming studies, she’s found more antiviral genes in people who performed acts of kindness."



Yes. Mask, physical distancing, and no crowded indoor stuff.

I dread when the schools reopen. On one hand it will push numbers higher. On the other we can't keep kids out long enough for this thing to pass.

If you want to cut through the 'hope' look at the numbers. This virus is a math problem at the core of it. If an infected person contacts A people for B time doing C activity with D level of protection then you've got E chance of spreading. I have not seen a curve that has gone down... just ones that didn't go up as fast. I am talking about the US here... but even foreign countries are not done with this yet.

I feel like we are the blind men examining an elephant (myself included). Some see personal liberty, some see death, some see exhaustion, some see elderly family they can't visit, and some are truly blind and deny the elephant exists.


----------



## raggie33

another big name got it Kimberly Guilfoyle


----------



## turbodog

raggie33 said:


> another big name got it Kimberly Guilfoyle



yup

the circle gets smaller

bet trump will get it before this is all over

https://apnews.com/ab95adeb3a6102c88c45111cf829b3b6?utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_medium=AP&utm_source=Twitter


----------



## raggie33

turbodog said:


> yup
> 
> the circle gets smaller
> 
> bet trump will get it before this is all over
> 
> https://apnews.com/ab95adeb3a6102c88c45111cf829b3b6?utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_medium=AP&utm_source=Twitter


im pretty sure his son has it i hope not but i have a weird feeling


----------



## Lynx_Arc

turbodog said:


> yup
> 
> the circle gets smaller
> 
> bet trump will get it before this is all over
> 
> https://apnews.com/ab95adeb3a6102c88c45111cf829b3b6?utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_medium=AP&utm_source=Twitter


A lot of people will get it before it is over with.... way way too many people to infect and I don't think masks are nearly a protective as people think they are. Personally I think distancing works but there are too many people with lousy masks not wearing them right etc that are infecting and being infected. What we haven't heard of at all is the percentage of people infected with and without masks on.... I wonder why no study has been brought forth on this at all? Curious eh?


----------



## turbodog

I think that's somewhat misleading.

Studies have been done concerning how far droplets travel when sneezing/coughing when masks are worn/not worn. The data is in and is clear that masks, even the crappiest ones, help stop a certain amount (even 10% less is helpful) of particles.

As far as studying if an infected person was wearing a mask when they got infected... I'd say that's less conspiracy and more practical challenges. Do you know what you were doing every minute for the past 2+ weeks? It takes exposure, incubation (up to 2 weeks), symptoms, testing, confirmation, and THEN contact tracing.

Even the n95 (which you don't hear much about anymore) is just that, 95% effective. You can also buy n100/p100 masks, which are 99+% effective. But there's still a probability that something can/will get past them.

This is a math problem as far as the spreading goes and a social science problem from behavior standpoint. I'd take someone wearing a crappy droopy mask over no mask at all anyday.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

turbodog said:


> I think that's somewhat misleading.
> 
> Studies have been done concerning how far droplets travel when sneezing/coughing when masks are worn/not worn. The data is in and is clear that masks, even the crappiest ones, help stop a certain amount (even 10% less is helpful) of particles.
> 
> As far as studying if an infected person was wearing a mask when they got infected... I'd say that's less conspiracy and more practical challenges. Do you know what you were doing every minute for the past 2+ weeks? It takes exposure, incubation (up to 2 weeks), symptoms, testing, confirmation, and THEN contact tracing.
> 
> Even the n95 (which you don't hear much about anymore) is just that, 95% effective. You can also buy n100/p100 masks, which are 99+% effective. But there's still a probability that something can/will get past them.
> 
> This is a math problem as far as the spreading goes and a social science problem from behavior standpoint. I'd take someone wearing a crappy droopy mask over no mask at all anyday.


If a crappy mask absorbs the virus laced droplets and keeps them there so the mask wearer can breath them in and spew them right back out at others then what good is it doing? Until I see a study on how many are infected while using masks I still wonder if most masks aren't helping much at all perhaps even increasing the risk of infections as they give a platform for the virus to survive that may be a lot better than a flat or dry surface a moist mask may be a nice breeding ground for the virus. In other words if someone you knew that had the virus gave you their mask to use.... would you use it?


----------



## nbp

Viruses don’t “breed”. They aren’t even alive. They only function in a host cell. And if you’re the only one wearing your mask (as it should be) you’d only be breathing in what you already exhaled, so you’re not going to “extra infect” yourself. That’s not a thing.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

nbp said:


> Viruses don’t “breed”. They aren’t even alive. They only function in a host cell. And if you’re the only one wearing your mask (as it should be) you’d only be breathing in what you already exhaled, so you’re not going to “extra infect” yourself. That’s not a thing.


I shouldn't have mistakenly said "breed". So if someone spews virus into the air and your mask "grabs" the droplets you are saying that you cannot suck the moisture that includes the virus through the mask when you breathe in? That virus that is now on/in your mask cannot be blown back out into the air again? I believe this is quite possible with a lot of cheap masks out there.


----------



## Poppy

Lynx_Arc said:


> I shouldn't have mistakenly said "breed". So if someone spews virus into the air and your mask "grabs" the droplets you are saying that you cannot suck the moisture that includes the virus through the mask when you breathe in? That virus that is now on/in your mask cannot be blown back out into the air again? I believe this is quite possible with a lot of cheap masks out there.


That is not at all what he said.
EDIT: And his statement was absolutely correct!


----------



## nbp

If the mask caught your spit globs the first time why wouldn’t it catch it the second time? It’s not a perfect solution but I think the idea is if you can decrease the amount of mucus flying around by any amount that is helpful. Once again, remember the mask is not there to catch the aerosolized viral particles from OTHERS, it’s to catch the goo flying out of YOUR face.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

nbp said:


> If the mask caught your spit globs the first time why wouldn’t it catch it the second time? It’s not a perfect solution but I think the idea is if you can decrease the amount of mucus flying around by any amount that is helpful. Once again, remember the mask is not there to catch the aerosolized viral particles from OTHERS, it’s to catch the goo flying out of YOUR face.


But masks DO catch viral particle that are from OTHERS in the air and sit there on your mask and you can breath through the mask AND if blow through the mask it can spew the virus particles off your mask back into the air so another mask can pick them up. If the mask were not there to capture the virus on it then it would possibly hit someone and maybe just dry out on their face instead of being there to be blown back ping pong style to the next masked person. 
Do you know that they recommend that a damp mask be changed? I bet 90% of the people wearing masks aren't changing them when they get damp. Someone that is infected could turn away when they cough and sneeze and the virus may go somewhere that nobody will pick them up on their mask but if they load their mask up with the virus and cough or sneeze it is concentrated there in their mask to be spewed out perhaps even a higher concentration than a single high output blast you have a mask full of a lot of breathing in/out.


----------



## bigburly912

Everyone keep in mind that lynx_arc is talking about some of the low quality or junk masks. In that case what he is saying is actually correct. A paper mask that gets damp oror contaminated is useless.


----------



## nbp

Then don’t wear a mask and just breathe the particle laden air in if you want to; it doesn’t matter to me. But I don’t think your theories about superconcentrated viral air from masks really hold water scientifically. I would be fascinated to read peer reviewed scientific literature to the contrary however.


----------



## bigburly912

nbp said:


> Then don’t wear a mask and just breathe the particle laden air in if you want to; it doesn’t matter to me. But I don’t think your theories about superconcentrated viral air from masks really hold water scientifically. I would be fascinated to read peer reviewed scientific literature to the contrary however.



If you wear a paper mask for more than a few minutes just your breath will dampen that mask. I really think/hope that’s the point he is trying to get across


----------



## Lynx_Arc

bigburly912 said:


> If you wear a paper mask for more than a few minutes just your breath will dampen that mask. I really think/hope that’s the point he is trying to get across


Exactly..... we know that N95 masks don't have these issues.... but I've read papers today to hospital staffs that say that when one of their masks gets damp to change it and there is way way too many cheap masks and I bet most people don't change them when they get damp so they could be either useless or possibly worse than not wearing a mask.


----------



## idleprocess

bigburly912 said:


> If you wear a paper mask for more than a few minutes just your breath will dampen that mask. I really think/hope that’s the point he is trying to get across



I've seen some blatantly staged images of people wearing coffee filters, but otherwise what I see around me is sewn masks, surgical masks, simple respirators, valved respirators - all in reasonable working order at a glance. Valved respirators get some finger-wagging in some quarters, but the industry has seemingly refused to address the relatively simple airflow problem that eyewear reveals when it fogs, so I can't fault that choice.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

nbp said:


> Then don’t wear a mask and just breathe the particle laden air in if you want to; it doesn’t matter to me. But I don’t think your theories about superconcentrated viral air from masks really hold water scientifically. I would be fascinated to read peer reviewed scientific literature to the contrary however.


I would love to see some non partisan, non political, non biased studies on masks and transmission of the virus that includes all sorts of masks and conditions including cheap, disposable, home made masks instead of relying on N95 data which I believe is what a lot of quoted statistics are based upon. 
As for the superconcentrated viral air.... imagine you are breathing out 100 virus particles every breath and they all are stopped by your mask. Now if you have no mask you emit 100 virus particles in the air that breath instead. Take 9 more breaths and you have 9x100 particles breathed out in the air.... but where do those 1000 virus particles go if not into the air directly? They are trapped by the mask. Now you cough into the mask and that blows the virus particles there outward..... so instead of coughing 100 virus particles you have a potential of blowing 1100 virus particles as the mask is "loaded" with 1000 particle already with nowhere to go but either stay in the mask or escape from that into the air somehow. Take 100 breaths then sneeze you have 10,000 virus particles there on your mask sitting there in the way of the air blasting through it.


----------



## nbp

I don’t even know where to begin with that... 

Follow your local government mandates and take care.


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## bigburly912

Reaching quite a bit now brother.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

I just googled a few things and saw mention of recommending "not singing" in churches even with masks on. I didn't bother checking in depth into it but it seems to suggest that masks aren't doing well when the virus "load" is higher as in singing etc. One mayor is trying to ban singing in churches totally. Not quite sure what to make of it all but I do recall hearing about a bunch of people in a choir getting the virus awhile back but I don't think they were masked overall (not sure).


----------



## idleprocess

Lynx_Arc said:


> I would love to see some non partisan, non political, non biased studies on masks and transmission of the virus that includes all sorts of masks and conditions including cheap, disposable, home made masks instead of relying on N95 data which I believe is what a lot of quoted statistics are based upon.


Controlled studies in this field are vanishingly rare since all the money is in therapy and vaccine development. There are plenty of generic studies long predating COVID-19 that demonstrate the efficacy of various filter media - included improvised media such as simple cloth - at greatly reducing the spread of water droplets from coughs and sneezes in terms of both quantity transmitted as well as their escape velocity. And that's the name of the game - reduction at multiple levels vis-a-vis social distancing and everyone that can wear a mask wearing one, doubling the opportunities for interception.



Lynx_Arc said:


> As for the superconcentrated viral air....


Yeah, not sure where to go with that either. Walking around without a mask in close proximity to a carrier does the same means you're rolling the dice on exposure being sufficiently brief that you don't catch sufficient load to incubate an infection because every exhalation into the local air will be loaded to maximum potential viral load. Masks cut into this since water droplets are larger than the nitrogen, oxygen, CO2 that's most of the air. Unless the mask is dripping wet, loaded with particulates to the point that it has to be bypassed to breathe, or otherwise been rendered ineffective it's going to have very good odds of intercepting and containing the droplets that viral particles ride within, thus reduce exposure. Water droplets also tend to be wicked into the material and over time can evaporate, leaving behind dissolved/suspended contents such as virus particles which I gather are rapidly inactivated in the process.

Or, you know, just listen to what public health authorities have to say.


----------



## Empath

Please be mindful of the previous advisement.



Empath said:


> Take ALL posts regarding the presently occurring protests, riots, marches and such to The Underground.



At least one post has been removed, due to efforts to direct the discussion in the wrong direction.


----------



## Greta

Dave D said:


> I think you are getting confused with the David Hasselhoff movie 'Bridge Across Time'!
> 
> There were no murders attributed to Jack the Ripper under London Bridge, but such a myth probably helps to generate visitors!



Does it really matter?


----------



## turbodog

Lynx_Arc said:


> I shouldn't have mistakenly said "breed". So if someone spews virus into the air and your mask "grabs" the droplets you are saying that you cannot suck the moisture that includes the virus through the mask when you breathe in? That virus that is now on/in your mask cannot be blown back out into the air again? I believe this is quite possible with a lot of cheap masks out there.



The virus exited your body most likely during a cough/sneeze, not nearly as much during normal respiration. So unless you cough/sneeze in REVERSE it's most likely going to stay adhered to the mask surface/fibers.

Remember. this is a math thing. There's no 100% guarantee, but you can tip the odds in your favor any manner of ways.


----------



## turbodog

Lynx_Arc said:


> Exactly..... we know that N95 masks don't have these issues.... but I've read papers today to hospital staffs that say that when one of their masks gets damp to change it and there is way way too many cheap masks and I bet most people don't change them when they get damp so they could be either useless or possibly worse than not wearing a mask.



Technically _any_ mask become damp when your very first exhale hits it. It's a matter of how wet is too wet?

And many of those papers are 'best practices'. However faced with reality, a lot of those get adjusted into 'allowable practices'. Which is a nice way of saying that a compromised mask is still better than no mask.


----------



## turbodog

Lynx_Arc said:


> I would love to see some non partisan, non political, non biased studies on masks and transmission of the virus that includes all sorts of masks and conditions including cheap, disposable, home made masks instead of relying on N95 data which I believe is what a lot of quoted statistics are based upon.
> As for the superconcentrated viral air.... imagine you are breathing out 100 virus particles every breath and they all are stopped by your mask. Now if you have no mask you emit 100 virus particles in the air that breath instead. Take 9 more breaths and you have 9x100 particles breathed out in the air.... but where do those 1000 virus particles go if not into the air directly? They are trapped by the mask. Now you cough into the mask and that blows the virus particles there outward..... so instead of coughing 100 virus particles you have a potential of blowing 1100 virus particles as the mask is "loaded" with 1000 particle already with nowhere to go but either stay in the mask or escape from that into the air somehow. Take 100 breaths then sneeze you have 10,000 virus particles there on your mask sitting there in the way of the air blasting through it.



I understand what you are saying, but you are making a false assumption that the mask, when hit with a blast of air, readily gives up it's entire filtering load. This is simply false. 

And in practice, it's a reach anyway. If you are coughing/sneezing, prudence would have a responsible person staying at home.

Also, in practice, if someone feels this coming on, they will hopefully take a few extra steps away from other people.

If you're looking for an excuse to NOT wear a mask, even a homemade one, you will not find it based on facts.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

The public health officials got us into this mess, I tend to see it as putting clowns in charge of pie allocation expecting people to all have a nice piece of pie and expecting no mess at all. We have gone from controlling the virus to fears of death if you don't mask and mandatory measures if we don't STOP the virus. No more controlling and managing... STOPPING and avoiding death are the key words now and supported by the health authorities.. fearmongering and they wonder why the younger folk are now rebelling that is because they have lost respect for health authorities too.


----------



## Poppy

Lynx_Arc said:


> The public health officials got us into this mess, <SNIP>


I'm in NJ, in the New York City Metropolitan area.

We were the epicenter for the US.

Fortunately for me, The Governors of NY, NJ, and Connecticut, worked together to get the virus under control. It was raging for a month, and there were REAL scares as hospitals became filled over-capacity, there was no effective treatment, a severe lack of PPEs, and ventilators. Thankfully, the curve flattened out, and after a few weeks of being relatively flat (at an obscenely high level) it started downward. 

Gov. Cuomo, of NY, took the lead, as NYC got hit the hardest, and first. NJ (the most densely populated state in the nation) and Connecticut were only a couple of weeks behind.

Back in April, I recall my brother saying to me; "notice, they are not talking about STOPPING the virus, they are only talking about SLOWING the virus, so as to not incapacitate the hospitals."

Fortunately, people in the tri-state area, for the most part, stayed in when told to, and for the most part respected social distancing, at least enough for the new case numbers, and hospitalizations to drop to a manageable level.

So I would say that we had good leadership, and a populace that co-operated. 

I recall when I was in my late teens, and early to mid twenties. They were the most socially active/care free times of my life.
I understand why people in that age group, have a much stronger, need/desire than those in my age group, to socialize.
Hopefully they are paying attention to the rising rate of infection, and that it is hitting their age group, and see that hospitals are maxing out.
Hopefully, they'll cut back on socialization, and feel the need to participate in decreasing the rate of spread.

Hopefully.


----------



## turbodog

Lynx_Arc said:


> The public health officials got us into this mess, I tend to see it as putting clowns in charge of pie allocation expecting people to all have a nice piece of pie and expecting no mess at all. We have gone from controlling the virus to fears of death if you don't mask and mandatory measures if we don't STOP the virus. No more controlling and managing... STOPPING and avoiding death are the key words now and supported by the health authorities.. fearmongering and they wonder why the younger folk are now rebelling that is because they have lost respect for health authorities too.



We all got ourselves into this mess every single time we go somewhere not essential, don't wear a mask, don't wash hands thoroughly, talk more than we should, and stay longer than required.

In the book I just finished, the death of expertise, it has an entire chapter about the difference in experts explaining current events and predicting future ones. The US had a chance, a very very very very small one, to stop the virus. That ball was fumbled. Now we are trying to hold the opposing team to as few touchdowns as possible.

Ask yourself how far along toward the 'end' of this we are, barring a vaccine, how far toward herd immunity. A large majority of 'people on the street' that I deal with think we are pretty far along, certainly past the worst of it. The numbers and the medical professionals in my immediate family (MD, DO, NP, RN, BSN, MHS) all agree we are maybe 5% through this ordeal... that we are still in the EARLY beginning phases.

Now ask yourself, if you are trying to communicate vital information to the public, how you handle it all, knowing that you get one shot. You have to deal with PPE issues, testing issues, legal issues, job issues, tax revenue issues, deficit issues, paranoia, bad info from the white house, manpower shortages due to 14 day 'time outs', and other countless things.

The younger/all folk have lost respect for expertise largely due to MISinformation from the myriad of sources that tell them exactly what they want to hear. *Today, no matter how crazy your ideas, you can find websites, blogs, podcasts, etc that agree with you, that play directly into your confirmation bias.* 20+ years ago, there were fewer news sources... if you listened to the news you were presented with ideas that did NOT match your worldview... that's not the case in the modern 'news' business.


----------



## idleprocess

Lynx_Arc said:


> The public health officials got us into this mess


You know all those horrific early projections that the media ran with in February/March - _one million_ or more dead, hospitals in triage for months with people dying in waiting rooms? In no small part the actions of public health officials are why that _fearmongering_ - i.e. early projections - fell short.


----------



## turbodog

idleprocess said:


> You know all those horrific early projections that the media ran with in February/March - _one million_ or more dead, hospitals in triage for months with people dying in waiting rooms? In no small part the actions of public health officials are why that _fearmongering_ - i.e. early projections - fell short.



Yes. Public health is tough. If you get it _right_ you look _wrong_.

That said... every piece of data I see points to over 1M dead in the US. Is just going to take longer to get there. I've not lost anyone I know yet, but have clients that have lost people they know.


----------



## raggie33

now im broke as a joke i had to get more mask it took my last farking dime. then i get home read reviews and they suck. id thought they would be regulated


----------



## turbodog

Sorry man. The medical grade are 'regulated'. Certified might be a better word to use. The non-medical grade are labelled just that way, non-medical. Usefulness is not as good as medical. Some are better than others. ALL are better than nothing. 

Don't forget that masks are not a silver bullet. Everyone needs to stay several feet apart, be careful, stay home if sick, do not touch your face/eyes, and WASH HANDS.


----------



## raggie33

turbodog said:


> Sorry man. The medical grade are 'regulated'. Certified might be a better word to use. The non-medical grade are labelled just that way, non-medical. Usefulness is not as good as medical. Some are better than others. ALL are better than nothing.
> 
> Don't forget that masks are not a silver bullet. Everyone needs to stay several feet apart, be careful, stay home if sick, do not touch your face/eyes, and WASH HANDS.



i stay far away from everyone if they dont have a mask on i wont even walk down the aisle there on. i use hand cleaner even before i go in store. then when i leave i use hand cleaner again to take off my mask..im germ phobic for sure


----------



## raggie33

ps early in this post i talked about some saying are lake in haunted today 2 more people died on it.


----------



## Monocrom

Lynx_Arc said:


> I shouldn't have mistakenly said "breed". So if someone spews virus into the air and your mask "grabs" the droplets you are saying that you cannot suck the moisture that includes the virus through the mask when you breathe in? That virus that is now on/in your mask cannot be blown back out into the air again? I believe this is quite possible with a lot of cheap masks out there.




Simple solution, don't buy a crappy mask. Easy way to test. Hold a lighter (obviously not a Zippo or any other windproof lighter) a few inches away from your mouth while wearing a mask. Try to blow out the flame. If you can, you bought the wrong mask. A proper one will prevent your breath from escaping. Thus, if you have the virus trapped on your mask, you're not an infection risk to anyone when you exhale. 

As far as having the virus trapped on your mask. Some have voiced this concern with cotton face masks only. Easy solution, buy one that is made from polyester. Not nearly as absorbent as cotton. Plus, even if you do have a 100% cotton face mask, realistically the only way the virus is going to get trapped on your mask is if someone already infected has been coughing or sneezing in an enclosed area _while not wearing a mask_, and you happen to walk into the room a very short time after they left. Or, if someone without a mask on, accidentally sneezed right at you. 

For the latter, simple solution. Anyone wishing to talk to me without a mask on, I just don't allow it. I'll tell them straight-up to get away from me as I put more distance between us. For the former, get a mask with certain features that prevent any type of trapped virus on your 100% cotton mask from spreading to you. 

Two or three layers, filter pocket, use a good filter. Don't use a coffee filter, don't use panty liners. A good, disposable, PM2.5 filter has 5 layers of protection. Realistically a virus trapped on the very outside of the mask isn't getting through that. Commercial masks are all filter material, a nose-wire, and ear-loops. So those are fine as long as you don't get a fake one. And if getting traces of the virus caught on the outside of the mask is a concern, again; go with one that is all polyester. Such masks are also made with two or three layers + a filter pocket. Only thing you have to watch out for are that many all-polyester masks are sometimes made to very cheap standards. It's surprisingly common, and you just don't see that with their cotton counterparts. With the polyester ones, you definitely want to spend quite a bit more money to get quality. 

Also, like I mentioned in an earlier post, a good nose-wire is a MUST for that proper fit on one's face. You also want elastic ear-loops as they're more convenient for very quickly putting a mask on or taking it off. Other options either take too long, or don't give you that tight, proper seal on the face. 

At the end of the day, literally. Take the disposable filter out of your hand-sewn/re-usable mask. Toss the filter away. Wash your mask. Any traces of the virus trapped on the outside of it, all gone. Hang the mask up to dry. Put a new filter in it the next day before wearing it for numerous hours again.


----------



## nbp

turbodog said:


> Yes. Public health is tough. If you get it _right_ you look _wrong_.
> 
> That said... every piece of data I see points to over 1M dead in the US. Is just going to take longer to get there. I've not lost anyone I know yet, but have clients that have lost people they know.



Well sure. You can’t subtract from the number so it will go up indefinitely into the future unless you eradicate it, like they did polio. That isn’t really possible with this kind of virus it would seem so eventually a million will die from it. Given sufficient time 1M will die from falls in the bathtub or labrador attacks too. A bit of sass there but you get my point. This will be a cause of death for those who have always been at risk for death by respiratory illness on into the future. Remember that 380,000 elderly folks in care facilities died every year of infections in the USA before COVID19 existed. So many of these deaths aren’t new they’re just on the news every day unlike before. Just like you hardly ever hear that 1.2 million Americans die annually of heart disease and cancer. People just accept it as a fact of life. I think at some point COVID19 will be a fact of life like so many other things. Sad but true.


----------



## raggie33

should i return my walmart mask?


----------



## Greta

Here's the funny part - as I mentioned in a previous post, masks are all about making _others_ feel better. So in truth, it doesn't matter what your mask is made of or whether or not it is actually effective for... whatever. As long as you are wearing a mask... _ANY_ mask... people will look at you and nod in approval and _FEEL _better. So really... does it matter what the mask is made of or if it "works"? The truthful answer to that is a resounding... *NO!*


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Monocrom said:


> Simple solution, don't buy a crappy mask. Easy way to test. Hold a lighter (obviously not a Zippo or any other windproof lighter) a few inches away from your mouth while wearing a mask. Try to blow out the flame. If you can, you bought the wrong mask. A proper one will prevent your breath from escaping. Thus, if you have the virus trapped on your mask, you're not an infection risk to anyone when you exhale.
> 
> As far as having the virus trapped on your mask. Some have voiced this concern with cotton face masks only. Easy solution, buy one that is made from polyester. Not nearly as absorbent as cotton. Plus, even if you do have a 100% cotton face mask, realistically the only way the virus is going to get trapped on your mask is if someone already infected has been coughing or sneezing in an enclosed area _while not wearing a mask_, and you happen to walk into the room a very short time after they left. Or, if someone without a mask on, accidentally sneezed right at you.
> 
> For the latter, simple solution. Anyone wishing to talk to me without a mask on, I just don't allow it. I'll tell them straight-up to get away from me as I put more distance between us. For the former, get a mask with certain features that prevent any type of trapped virus on your 100% cotton mask from spreading to you.
> 
> Two or three layers, filter pocket, use a good filter. Don't use a coffee filter, don't use panty liners. A good, disposable, PM2.5 filter has 5 layers of protection. Realistically a virus trapped on the very outside of the mask isn't getting through that. Commercial masks are all filter material, a nose-wire, and ear-loops. So those are fine as long as you don't get a fake one. And if getting traces of the virus caught on the outside of the mask is a concern, again; go with one that is all polyester. Such masks are also made with two or three layers + a filter pocket. Only thing you have to watch out for are that many all-polyester masks are sometimes made to very cheap standards. It's surprisingly common, and you just don't see that with their cotton counterparts. With the polyester ones, you definitely want to spend quite a bit more money to get quality.
> 
> Also, like I mentioned in an earlier post, a good nose-wire is a MUST for that proper fit on one's face. You also want elastic ear-loops as they're more convenient for very quickly putting a mask on or taking it off. Other options either take too long, or don't give you that tight, proper seal on the face.
> 
> At the end of the day, literally. Take the disposable filter out of your hand-sewn/re-usable mask. Toss the filter away. Wash your mask. Any traces of the virus trapped on the outside of it, all gone. Hang the mask up to dry. Put a new filter in it the next day before wearing it for numerous hours again.


I just about fell asleep reading that long post.... I seriously doubt most people are going to go all out and figure out how to invest in a "better mask" when either they are confident in their crappy mask or confident that the virus is overrated to begin with. There are also a lot of people that don't think this mask thing is going to last another year and don't want to invest in a high end mask and spend hundreds of dollars to keep themselves "protected" from the virus which only (as far as the numbers equate) seem to cause serious problems with about 2% of the people. Add to all of that the shutdowns have many struggling financially and paying for masks vs paying rent or the electric bill or buying food may have people deciding to not bother with the added expense or go as cheap as possible. We don't have any public health experts giving out much in the way of advice of what masks to buy other than equating the best N95 masks are for their people first and we have to get the crappier masks and they don't really care what mask we wear even if it is made out of one layer of a kleenex or wrapping a 2 ply length of toilet paper around your head held by 2 rubber bands a mask is a mask and most people are going to buy crappy and cheap which means a lot of what I'm saying is probably true in the end while you are thinking your idea of a mask will be more "bulletproof" everyone else out there is sneezing through generic charmin.


----------



## Monocrom

Greta said:


> Here's the funny part - as I mentioned in a previous post, masks are all about making _others_ feel better. So in truth, it doesn't matter what your mask is made of or whether or not it is actually effective for... whatever. As long as you are wearing a mask... _ANY_ mask... people will look at you and nod in approval and _FEEL _better. So really... does it matter what the mask is made of or if it "works"? The truthful answer to that is a resounding... *NO!*



Sorry Greta, but if you were in my neighborhood and could see what I see; I honestly believe you wouldn't come to such a conclusion. I look at the faces of my neighbors, all with masks on; I can tell who they are. Even with masks on. Been in this neighborhood since 2002. Everyone knows each other. Not one of them *feels* better. They're scared to death. I look at their faces, even with masks on.... all I see is fear is their eyes. Stark, naked, fear. Maybe the fact that all of them are wearing masks is making it easier for me to see the fear in their eyes. 

There's no comfort in seeing others around them wearing masks. No sense of relief. Nothing in terms of feeling better at the sight of others around them wearing masks. All I see is fear. Fear and a desperate attempt at making believe in front of others that they're okay. That everything is okay. Masks aren't about people feeling better. They're about slowing the spread of the virus in areas heavily infected. And that right there is one of the biggest reasons for that fear in their eyes. They know their masks won't completely protect them. The intelligent ones know that masks will only help slow the spread of the virus. Maybe just enough that normalcy can return a few months earlier than predicted. No infections, no deaths in those few months saved.


----------



## Monocrom

Lynx_Arc said:


> I just about fell asleep reading that long post.... I seriously doubt most people are going to go all out and figure out how to invest in a "better mask" when either they are confident in their crappy mask or confident that the virus is overrated to begin with. There are also a lot of people that don't think this mask thing is going to last another year and don't want to invest in a high end mask and spend hundreds of dollars to keep themselves "protected" from the virus which only (as far as the numbers equate) seem to cause serious problems with about 2% of the people. Add to all of that the shutdowns have many struggling financially and paying for masks vs paying rent or the electric bill or buying food may have people deciding to not bother with the added expense or go as cheap as possible. We don't have any public health experts giving out much in the way of advice of what masks to buy other than equating the best N95 masks are for their people first and we have to get the crappier masks and they don't really care what mask we wear even if it is made out of one layer of a kleenex or wrapping a 2 ply length of toilet paper around your head held by 2 rubber bands a mask is a mask and most people are going to buy crappy and cheap which means a lot of what I'm saying is probably true in the end while you are thinking your idea of a mask will be more "bulletproof" everyone else out there is sneezing through generic charmin.




Well, as a member of the ASMR community on YouTube, being told that one nearly put someone to sleep is the best compliment. So thank you. I also try to give thorough responses. As Greta pointed out earlier, grown adults are responsible for their own safety. Can't do anything about those who think a thin piece of fabric with ear-loops is good enough, or those who refuse to educate themselves and think covid-19 is just a _really_ bad strain of the flu. 

Also, hundreds of dollars? Best quality hand-sewn/re-usable mask I ever bought out of the literally dozens of different ones, was $15.oo online. Ironically from a Seller a few miles away from where I live. You can find quality masks for right around $12.oo online. Sure, a nice supply of quality filters will cost more but no where near a three-figure price-tag. 

Not really sure where that 2% comes from. But when we're talking a planetary pandemic, 2% translates into a staggering number of individual human-beings. Again, quality hand-sewn/re-usable washable masks are not that expensive. Trust me, no one is struggling with having to decide between should they buy a good mask, or should they buy groceries this week. That's just not happening. 

An N95 is going to be only 95% effective. Far from perfect, but currently the best out there if you can even find them. Assuming when you do, the listing isn't a scam. Even if it's not, realistically expect to wait a month or more for delivery. 

No clue what the medical experts in your neck of the woods are recommending for alternatives to N95s. The ones in my neck, not even close to anything like you mentioned. There are good alternatives to an N95. Not great alternatives. But good ones. The information is out there. You're not going to get N95 levels of protection, but you can come close depending on the mask, it's features, which filters you put inside of it. Things like that. You _can_ get the various individual layers of what makes up an N95 mask, and make those into filter material. Key one being non-woven polypropylene. You can find that online. 

Even with some of the crappier masks I've been cheated on, even the majority of those did a good job of not allowing sneezes to penetrate out the front of the mask and into the air. Quality is about choice of material, stitching that won't unravel, whether or not the ear-loops or head-straps will snap off when you're out doing your shopping, having a proper filter pocket, having a proper nose-wire. Those types of things. I mean, if someone is walking around with a length of toilet paper folded over a few times with a couple of shoelaces super-glued to the sides, and they sneeze; I agree with you. That type of mask isn't stopping that sneeze from traveling out towards people. But even the average cheap mask is going to contain a sneeze. Unless it's such a thin, single layer, piece of crap that a blind man can tell it's worthless just by looking at it. It'll fall apart on you in a couple of days. But I've never seen a crappy mask so crappy that it couldn't stop a sneeze. And I've seen and gotten some very terrible, crappy masks. I wouldn't even donate them to violent cons serving prison time. That's how crappy they are.


----------



## PhotonWrangler

Monocrom, you've described this so well. I see the same thing in the people in my community and my workplace. Masks everywhere, raw hands from constantly sanitizing, the heavy odor of bleach in the hallways. At times I feel like I'm walking around at Chernobyl.

One of my co-workers got it and passed it to his elderly father. Thankfully they've both recovered, however when we found out that my co-worker had it, they fogged the hell out of everything in the area. It's just not worth taking chances.


----------



## Monocrom

PhotonWrangler said:


> Monocrom, you've described this so well. I see the same thing in the people in my community and my workplace. Masks everywhere, raw hands from constantly sanitizing, the heavy odor of bleach in the hallways. At times I feel like I'm walking around at Chernobyl.
> 
> One of my co-workers got it and passed it to his elderly father. Thankfully they've both recovered, however when we found out that my co-worker had it, they fogged the hell out of everything in the area. It's just not worth taking chances.




I agree with you. Just not worth taking chances. All about layers of protection. A good mask, social distancing, only going to places that are necessary. Work, supermarket, bank, pharmacy. Plenty of hand-sanitizer and disposable gloves. One layer on top of another. The more layers, the better off a person will be. Bring the chance of infection as far down as possible with all those layers. While back, I moved my elderly mother in with me so I could keep a close eye on her. She no longer leaves the house. I do everything needed outside. I'm making sure she sticks around for as long as possible.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Greta said:


> Here's the funny part - as I mentioned in a previous post, masks are all about making _others_ feel better. So in truth, it doesn't matter what your mask is made of or whether or not it is actually effective for... whatever. As long as you are wearing a mask... _ANY_ mask... people will look at you and nod in approval and _FEEL _better. So really... does it matter what the mask is made of or if it "works"? The truthful answer to that is a resounding... *NO!*


YES!... another person who gets it. The "maskvocates" including health professionals should care that your mask is the most effective but do they allow the health professionals to make their own masks at work? Nope, they get N95 masks and are instructed how to use them, when to change them and we don't get the masks that they are using and are supplied to protect themselves with and they are the "heroes". If they require N95 to protect themselves and cheap home made masks aren't acceptable then why are we sold that anything goes with masks to be "acceptable"? The answer should be we are the heroes because by their own standards most people are wearing inferior masks and going out in public, working even and are at a higher risk than those in hospitals for contracting the virus. 
If they won't supply us with the best masks then why take them seriously about us being "safe" and "stopping" the virus when apparently we are NOT as "safe" or stopping it as well as those wearing the N95s. 
Maskvocates remind me of people who want to get rid of everyone else's guns and hire their own private armed security forces to protect themselves and live in the lower areas of crime in town as many of them have the "best" masks while the poor have to perhaps skip a meal to buy a pile of cheap disposable masks just so they are allowed in the grocery store to buy groceries with the amount of money that they have less of.. left because masks are mandatory in their state/city/etc.


----------



## Greta

Monocrom said:


> Sorry Greta, but if you were in my neighborhood and could see what I see; I honestly believe you wouldn't come to such a conclusion. I look at the faces of my neighbors, all with masks on; I can tell who they are. Even with masks on. Been in this neighborhood since 2002. Everyone knows each other. Not one of them *feels* better. They're scared to death. I look at their faces, even with masks on.... all I see is fear is their eyes. Stark, naked, fear. Maybe the fact that all of them are wearing masks is making it easier for me to see the fear in their eyes.
> 
> There's no comfort in seeing others around them wearing masks. No sense of relief. Nothing in terms of feeling better at the sight of others around them wearing masks. All I see is fear. Fear and a desperate attempt at making believe in front of others that they're okay. That everything is okay. Masks aren't about people feeling better. They're about slowing the spread of the virus in areas heavily infected. And that right there is one of the biggest reasons for that fear in their eyes. They know their masks won't completely protect them. The intelligent ones know that masks will only help slow the spread of the virus. Maybe just enough that normalcy can return a few months earlier than predicted. No infections, no deaths in those few months saved.



Sorry Monocrom, but masks -ARE- to make others feel better... regardless of how scared and terrified they look and are. We have been told from the beginning that wearing a mask is to protect others from you and not you from them. Right? "Wear a mask. Protect others from you." It could logically be argued that if everyone wears masks then everyone is protected. But those who are -NOT- wearing masks are guilty of not caring about others and not wanting to protect others from themselves. Right? We've also been told from the beginning that you don't have to necessarily wear some industrial or expensive mask... just a two-ply cloth mask will do. But you have said, in great length ad nauseam, they will not do. BUT - when I wear my cute little pink leopard print cloth mask in the grocery, people do not give me dirty looks. Sure, they are still scared cuz... well... it's scary! But at least they don't shun me or try to shame me. They FEEL better cuz I'm doing my part to protect them from me. But if I don't wear my mask? I am the devil incarnate and they all but run screaming down any aisle I am not in. The especially comical thing about that is they are usually wearing a mask that is inferior to even mine and/or they are wearing it completely wrong (covering mouth but not nose, etc.). But hey! THEY are protecting others from themselves, so they FEEL better. It's all about the FEELS, my friend... all about the FEELS.


----------



## turbodog

Greta said:


> ... We have been told from the beginning that wearing a mask is to protect others from you and not you from them. Right? "Wear a mask. Protect others from you." ... We've also been told from the beginning that you don't have to necessarily wear some industrial or expensive mask... just a two-ply cloth mask will do. ... The especially comical thing about that is they are usually wearing a mask that is inferior to even mine and/or they are wearing it completely wrong (covering mouth but not nose, etc.). But hey! THEY are protecting others from themselves, so they FEEL better. It's all about the FEELS, my friend... all about the FEELS.



I'm gonna kick the hornet nest a little here...

Please remember to keep in mind that public health officials are communicating a somewhat complex topic to millions of Americans. Then consider that the average US citizen (other countries are similar) reads at an 8th grade level. So few people read at the 'top' level that it was recently dropped from the rankings.

https://www.wyliecomm.com/2019/03/us-literacy-rate/

https://wriber.com/writing-below-a-grade-8-reading-level/

Masks do help. Even if you are wearing a basic mask, it still filters some amount of air. Call it an N05 mask, but catching 5% of particles beats 0%.


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## Greta

turbodog said:


> ...
> 
> .... but catching 5% of particles beats 0%.



Agree 100%! - But let's face it, _many_ who are only catching 5% FEEL like they are catching 100% thus saving the world from themselves. Perception. All about the feels.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Greta said:


> Agree 100%! - But let's face it, _many_ who are only catching 5% FEEL like they are catching 100% thus saving the world from themselves. Perception. All about the feels.


Yup... appeal to emotion. These same maskvocates were very silent back when the swine flus and bird flues were killing thousands of people they didn't wear any mask then probably not worn one for the last 20 years of things going around either and because some imaginary threshold was passed equating so many deaths or whatever not masking is evil... I want to know at what number of deaths when we must consider masking or not.


----------



## archimedes

Facial expression is an absolutely indispensable part of human communication.

Sadly, I have seen some start to promote the idea of masks "never" going away, and think that would be a indescribably tragic loss to society.

It is so important, that we even have "smilies" for text ....





[emoji40]


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## scout24

Excellent point well made, Arch. I fear another side effect is going to be people who raise their voice more. Between the masks and the new-to-us here plexiglass barriers between customers and clerks, one needs another 10 decibels to understand what's being said. I have pretty bad tinnitus, and while not able to read lips by any means I infer quite a bit from facial expression and rely on volume directed at me to communicate. Long way around, I agree with your post.


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## archimedes

Yes, and of course it makes it difficult to breathe, and even stressful at times.

I've also started to notice how often masked individuals "adjust" their mask, and wonder how much that may limit the practical effect(s) of generalized masking.


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## Greta

archimedes said:


> Facial expression is an absolutely indispensable part of human communication.
> 
> Sadly, I have seen some start to promote the idea of masks "never" going away, and think that would be a indescribably tragic loss to society.
> 
> It is so important, that we even have "smilies" for text ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [emoji40]



On the upside - I've gotten REALLY good with my eye makeup and I'm saving gobs on lipstick


----------



## turbodog

Lynx_Arc said:


> Yup... appeal to emotion. These same maskvocates were very silent back when the swine flus and bird flues were killing thousands of people they didn't wear any mask then probably not worn one for the last 20 years of things going around either and because some imaginary threshold was passed equating so many deaths or whatever not masking is evil... I want to know at what number of deaths when we must consider masking or not.



Safety vs utility is always a trade-off, nothing new. We could practically eliminate vehicles fatalities if we capped the speed limit at 20mph. But we kill productivity, which kills revenue, which kills taxes, which kills social services, which kills people.

We are seeing masks in the US for the first time. Asia has had them for years. I suspect this change will be permanent insofar as wearing one, at least indoors, if you are sick is not only accepted but encouraged.

When bodies are in refrigerated trucks in the street in NYC... it's time for _some_ changes, right?


----------



## turbodog

archimedes said:


> Yes, and of course it makes it difficult to breathe, and even stressful at times.
> 
> I've also started to notice how often masked individuals "adjust" their mask, and wonder how much that may limit the practical effect(s) of generalized masking.



If it's hard to breath you need a new mask. If you recall, a client of mine received ~150k masks from hanes/fruit of the loom. They gave me 2 packs, 5 each.

I bought some dye @ kroger and dyed them so they were not stark white. Great masks, or as good as non-medical non-fitted can be. Comfortable. No breathing problems. Looks like they are made from 2-3 layers of cotton.

I think these are them. Specs say 3 ply.

https://www.fruit.com/cloth-face-mask/reusable-cotton-face-mask-non-medical-5-pack/5PMASK.html

https://www.amazon.com/Fruit-Loom-Reusable-Cotton-Packs/dp/B08C52XVSN


----------



## scout24

archimedes said:


> Yes, and of course it makes it difficult to breathe, and even stressful at times.
> 
> I've also started to notice how often masked individuals "adjust" their mask, and wonder how much that may limit the practical effect(s) of generalized masking.



My absolute favorite here is covering your mouth with the mask, resting the top edge on your upper lip, nose exposed. Really? "Masks required outside your house" per governor order. "He didn't say how I had to wear it!". I just roll my eyes...


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Greta said:


> On the upside - I've gotten REALLY good with my eye makeup and I'm saving gobs on lipstick



I wonder if cosmetic companies are taking a hit as women don't need near as much makeup when they can hide most of their face.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

turbodog said:


> Safety vs utility is always a trade-off, nothing new. We could practically eliminate vehicles fatalities if we capped the speed limit at 20mph. But we kill productivity, which kills revenue, which kills taxes, which kills social services, which kills people.
> 
> We are seeing masks in the US for the first time. Asia has had them for years. I suspect this change will be permanent insofar as wearing one, at least indoors, if you are sick is not only accepted but encouraged.
> 
> When bodies are in refrigerated trucks in the street in NYC... it's time for _some_ changes, right?



I dunno about that..... think of it 2 ways.... first personal preference but if everyone in the country had 5% better masks that could equate to 5% less deaths and at 120,000 that is 6,000 people like I said before where does this imaginary number where things are "OK" vs total outrage and we have to change things start and end... is it 6,000, 10,000, or maybe just 1,000 nationwide and at was savings of potential years of life do we sacrifice how much money (time, etc) to save? Is it worth 1 million per year of life added on or 100,000 a year and if someone that is 70 and could live to 75 on average dies do we spend 10 million to give him 5 more years of life or spend 5 million to save 100 years more of life in 10 other people out there. Those who are making a lot of these decisions base it on numbers that they decide are "acceptable" and at times I think they are nuts compared to the numbers of past virus incidents and what it cost to save the same number of lives/years. It is probably a lot cheaper to give folks an N95 mask than to give them $1200 and shut down their business but then maybe the masks are not really that great that even with masks and distancing we still have to shut everything down.
All I can say if the change is permanent.... I want to live in another world where people can actually smile at me when I talk to them which can brighten up my day instead of staring into a stupid mask and can hardly see their eyes twinkle at 6+ feet away.


----------



## archimedes

turbodog said:


> If it's hard to breath you need a new mask....



I find it tiring to breathe through a brand-new properly fitted N95 for any significant length of time, and that is with only light physical activity.


----------



## Greta

Lynx_Arc said:


> I wonder if cosmetic companies are taking a hit as women don't need near as much makeup when they can hide most of their face.



Not in my circle! Eye makeup is the thing now. And here's a stock tip for you... Buy stock in false eyelashes! I get mine auto-shipped every two weeks from Sally's Beauty Supply. Lately, they have been coming in different shipments from different places... one set in one package from CA, two in another package from FL, one from NJ, and two from some other place. FOUR shipments to get me my six sets of lashes! Luckily, I don't pay for shipping. The good ones are getting harder to get ahold of. Cheap ones abound!


----------



## Greta

turbodog said:


> If it's hard to breath you need a new mask. ...



According to the CDC guidelines, if you have trouble breathing you shouldn't wear a mask at all :shrug:


----------



## Greta

Lynx_Arc said:


> ...
> All I can say if the change is permanent.... I want to live in another world where people can actually smile at me when I talk to them which can brighten up my day instead of staring into a stupid mask and can hardly see their eyes twinkle at 6+ feet away.



Ok so I was actually doing some research on just this the other day and I found... Bora Bora! 

_"French Polynesia, which hasn’t had an active case of COVID-19 since May 29, has recorded 60 confirmed cases of the virus in total and no deaths, according to Johns Hopkins University, which tracks the spread of the virus."_

https://www.travelandleisure.com/travel-news/french-polynesia-tahiti-coronavirus-reopening

You're welcome!


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Greta said:


> Not in my circle! Eye makeup is the thing now. And here's a stock tip for you... Buy stock in false eyelashes! I get mine auto-shipped every two weeks from Sally's Beauty Supply. Lately, they have been coming in different shipments from different places... one set in one package from CA, two in another package from FL, one from NJ, and two from some other place. FOUR shipments to get me my six sets of lashes! Luckily, I don't pay for shipping. The good ones are getting harder to get ahold of. Cheap ones abound!



I think we have 3 of their stores here one a half mile from me I believe too bad false eyelashes would look funky on me though LOL


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Greta said:


> Ok so I was actually doing some research on just this the other day and I found... Bora Bora!
> 
> _"French Polynesia, which hasn’t had an active case of COVID-19 since May 29, has recorded 60 confirmed cases of the virus in total and no deaths, according to Johns Hopkins University, which tracks the spread of the virus."_
> 
> https://www.travelandleisure.com/travel-news/french-polynesia-tahiti-coronavirus-reopening
> 
> You're welcome!



I wonder where you get a certificate of immunity these days?


----------



## Greta

Lynx_Arc said:


> I wonder where you get a certificate of immunity these days?



Maybe an antibody test?


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Greta said:


> Maybe an antibody test?


maybe... but from some of the garbage I've read about this virus the "experts" are claiming there is no immunity to it that some people get it and get infected yet again.


----------



## turbodog

Greta said:


> According to the CDC guidelines, if you have trouble breathing you shouldn't wear a mask at all :shrug:



He didn't say he had breathing problems just that a mask requires more effort. I happened to hit on a lucky cache of decent cloth models, but have used various ones in the past. Honestly, the easiest ones I have seen are the half face respirators. Large surface area = less resistance to airflow.


----------



## bigburly912

Broadway actor that had pneumonia later discovered it was covid has passed away. Sad for his wife.


----------



## RedLED

Greta said:


> Ok so I was actually doing some research on just this the other day and I found... Bora Bora!
> 
> _"French Polynesia, which hasn’t had an active case of COVID-19 since May 29, has recorded 60 confirmed cases of the virus in total and no deaths, according to Johns Hopkins University, which tracks the spread of the virus."_
> 
> https://www.travelandleisure.com/travel-news/french-polynesia-tahiti-coronavirus-reopening
> 
> You're welcome!


Bora Bora, what an amazing place we have been many times. Oh, and the girls do not wear tops!
They have the most beautiful waters you will ever see, just spectacular.


----------



## SCEMan

archimedes said:


> I find it tiring to breathe through a brand-new properly fitted N95 for any significant length of time, and that is with only light physical activity.



Ditto. I reserve wearing an N95 only for indoor use in close quarters (e.g., grocery stores, Costco) where social distancing is iffy.


----------



## Greta

turbodog said:


> He didn't say he had breathing problems just that a mask requires more effort.



I understand that. But I think you get my point?


----------



## WarriorOfLight

I am standing a little bit outside, since I am not in the USA. But the last few pages there were discussions about the masks if they help or not, .... looks kind of strange to me.

In most EU countries no one has a problem wearing a mask, even if it is annoying. But the reality shows it helps to reduce the effective range of the aerosol that might contains the virus. It is also clear the mask does not help yourself at first it helps others. For me it is totally clear to wear a mask in the urban train or when I am in a shop. It is for me the respect to the others in the train, the shop...
When you check out the daily infection rate in Spain, France, Italy that were the big hotspot in the EU, the numbers are significant down (daily infection rate is now maybe 10% or lower than the maximum peak was in March / April). One of the reasons was the long complete shutdown and also that in (most?) EU countries you must wear a mask.

Sometimes it is the better way just do something, even if it is not the 100% solution, instead of discussing and do nothing. If this mask wearing reduces the infections just a little, and a few people will not get infected, not getting sick and not getting the severe variant of COVID19, and not going to die than we all did the right thing.


----------



## Poppy

turbodog said:


> I'm gonna kick the hornet nest a little here...
> 
> Please remember to keep in mind that public health officials are communicating a somewhat complex topic to millions of Americans. Then consider that the average US citizen (other countries are similar) reads at an 8th grade level. So few people read at the 'top' level that it was recently dropped from the rankings.
> 
> https://www.wyliecomm.com/2019/03/us-literacy-rate/
> 
> https://wriber.com/writing-below-a-grade-8-reading-level/
> 
> Masks do help. Even if you are wearing a basic mask, it still filters some amount of air. Call it an N05 mask, but catching 5% of particles beats 0%.


turbodog,
Lack of literacy in the US, is truly scary.
Apparently, most people do NOT understand what they read, unless it is written on a 3rd grade level.

Reading and understanding of complex issues is beyond their grasp. So they rely on what they hear. Yet a person may say one thing, and the other may hear something else. In other words, they will only hear what they want to hear.

To think that we have an upcoming election, and that most of the population will elect based on sound bites. Scary!


----------



## raggie33

broadway star Nick Cordero dead from covid 19 spents months suffering


----------



## idleprocess

Poppy said:


> turbodog,
> Lack of literacy in the US, is truly scary.
> Apparently, most people do NOT understand what they read, unless it is written on a 3rd grade level.
> 
> Reading and understanding of complex issues is beyond their grasp. So they rely on what they hear. Yet a person may say one thing, and the other may hear something else. In other words, they will only hear what they want to hear.
> 
> To think that we have an upcoming election, and that most of the population will elect based on sound bites. Scary!



The increasing propensity for videos over articles makes sense in this context. Personally I find this trend aggravating - the information density per unit time is perhaps a quarter of print for me, unlike text it's burdensome to scan it for specific content, and the medium is naturally suited to emotional appeal rather than fact or rational argument which tends to make for inferior content by compare.


----------



## turbodog

Greta said:


> I understand that. But I think you get my point?



Yes. I thought you didn't get _his_. And if someone has lung issues during this time... they are in a bad spot from multiple angles.


----------



## Monocrom

Greta said:


> Sorry Monocrom, but masks -ARE- to make others feel better... regardless of how scared and terrified they look and are. We have been told from the beginning that wearing a mask is to protect others from you and not you from them. Right? "Wear a mask. Protect others from you." It could logically be argued that if everyone wears masks then everyone is protected. But those who are -NOT- wearing masks are guilty of not caring about others and not wanting to protect others from themselves. Right? We've also been told from the beginning that you don't have to necessarily wear some industrial or expensive mask... just a two-ply cloth mask will do. But you have said, in great length ad nauseam, they will not do. BUT - when I wear my cute little pink leopard print cloth mask in the grocery, people do not give me dirty looks. Sure, they are still scared cuz... well... it's scary! But at least they don't shun me or try to shame me. They FEEL better cuz I'm doing my part to protect them from me. But if I don't wear my mask? I am the devil incarnate and they all but run screaming down any aisle I am not in. The especially comical thing about that is they are usually wearing a mask that is inferior to even mine and/or they are wearing it completely wrong (covering mouth but not nose, etc.). But hey! THEY are protecting others from themselves, so they FEEL better. It's all about the FEELS, my friend... all about the FEELS.




Well, I do agree with you about the FEELS. But here in NYC, that FEEL is_ Fear._ Not a sense of comfort. We're in two very different settings. In one where our Governor has done such a horrendously incompetent job of protecting the public (seriously when you have a large city with a higher infection and death rate than most countries do, that is a staggering lack of leadership ability of any kind), the very type of attitude you described is absolutely understandable when folks see individuals walking around without a mask on. 

Yes, they do look at others with a sense of disgust. And I'm sorry, but rightly so. In your setting with infection rates being that tiny, no one should look at you with a feeling of disgust. No one should think you're being selfish and irresponsible. But the thankfully few individuals who do that here in NYC, the most infected city in all of America (and ranking right up there for #1 in the world); it's a completely different story. A mask is a barrier. And yes, if two people are properly wearing decent masks then each one is protecting the other one from their own germs. Especially if they're conversing a few feet apart. Thankfully here, I see the vast majority of people wearing proper masks in the proper manner. With nostrils inside the mask as well. 

When it comes to infection, two people without masks who are standing a couple of feet away; one of them could be infected without knowing it. It would be ridiculously easy to spread the virus to the person they are conversing with. Sometimes very tiny bits of saliva come out when people are conversing. Travels forward. Other person breaths it in.... And that's the issue right there. Not much effort needed to be put in by the virus to spread.

Same scenario. Both individuals are wearing decent masks. Wearing them properly. Maintaining several feet apart. Now, the virus has to deal with that inner layer of the mask (person whose infected). Next comes good filter material. That's going to be 4 or 5 layers total that the virus now has to get through. Whether it's an N95, KN95, or PPF2 mask. Or 5 layers through a PM2.5 filter housed in a properly hand-sewn/re-usable mask. Then it has to traverse 6 feet or so to get to the outer layer of the mask being worn by the uninfected person. Then _more_ layers of filter material until reaching the mouth of the uninfected individual.

Realistically, that's not happening. Even with a 3 layer surgical mask worn by both, the likelihood of infection is far lower than if both had no masks on, and were conversing with each other just a couple feel away. And this is something the general public knows because as you've mentioned, that's what they've been told. And it's true. So due to that, in a highly infected setting, yes; people with masks on and absolute fear in their eyes are indeed going to treat someone walking around outside without a mask on as though they're a selfish scumbag! Especially if that individual walks up to them and asks them a question. The probability that THAT individual is infected, is going to be significantly higher in New York than in parts of Arizona. And in a heavily infected setting, that type of attitude is completely understandable by folks who wear masks. 

In a setting with an extremely tiny risk of infection, it's not. In the heavily infected setting where fear is silently running rampant, it's going to be a natural reaction for folks to see others wearing masks all around them, and not get upset or angry. Completely natural _in that type of setting._ The one where you're in, I agree with you that it's all about FEELING better. Folks see someone without a mask on, they get angry, it's an irrational feeling in your setting; from the masses. A completely rational and understandable one in my setting.


----------



## Monocrom

Lynx_Arc said:


> YES!... another person who gets it. The "maskvocates" including health professionals should care that your mask is the most effective but do they allow the health professionals to make their own masks at work? Nope, they get N95 masks and are instructed how to use them, when to change them and we don't get the masks that they are using and are supplied to protect themselves with and they are the "heroes". If they require N95 to protect themselves and cheap home made masks aren't acceptable then why are we sold that anything goes with masks to be "acceptable"? The answer should be we are the heroes because by their own standards most people are wearing inferior masks and going out in public, working even and are at a higher risk than those in hospitals for contracting the virus.
> If they won't supply us with the best masks then why take them seriously about us being "safe" and "stopping" the virus when apparently we are NOT as "safe" or stopping it as well as those wearing the N95s.
> Maskvocates remind me of people who want to get rid of everyone else's guns and hire their own private armed security forces to protect themselves and live in the lower areas of crime in town as many of them have the "best" masks while the poor have to perhaps skip a meal to buy a pile of cheap disposable masks just so they are allowed in the grocery store to buy groceries with the amount of money that they have less of.. left because masks are mandatory in their state/city/etc.




Okay, one; as a very strong 2nd Amendment Advocate, I don't get the comparison you're making. Not at all.

Two, I literally answered all of the concerns you've brought up regarding masks. Especially Cheap vs. Quality masks. I've done extensive research on the subject. Including a ton of Trial & Error that has cost me thousands of dollars. Gave you the results of all that, in an earlier post. It's up there. Literally any member of CPF can see it. It's right there. N95s are not the be-all-end-all of masks. Homemade masks are not worthless garbage that don't protect anyone from infection. I literally, in detail, explained all of that for your benefit. I just don't get it. But once again, detailed reply to every concern regarding masks that you brought up in this topic. Took care of that for you. It's up there. Have a good one.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Monocrom said:


> Okay, one; as a very strong 2nd Amendment Advocate, I don't get the comparison you're making. Not at all.
> 
> Two, I literally answered all of the concerns you've brought up regarding masks. Especially Cheap vs. Quality masks. I've done extensive research on the subject. Including a ton of Trial & Error that has cost me thousands of dollars. Gave you the results of all that, in an earlier post. It's up there. Literally any member of CPF can see it. It's right there. N95s are not the be-all-end-all of masks. Homemade masks are not worthless garbage that don't protect anyone from infection. I literally, in detail, explained all of that for your benefit. I just don't get it. But once again, detailed reply to every concern regarding masks that you brought up in this topic. Took care of that for you. It's up there. Have a good one.


The problem here is if everyone is using quality masks AND NEED distancing rules in place then the effectiveness of masks must not be as good as people think it is otherwise they would not need to keep their distance apparently some virus is coming through masks that can infect people regardless it just reduces the level of virus to statistically reduce the chance of infection but we are being sold that masks STOP infection and keep people SAFE when they outright go farther than recommend distancing they REQUIRE it.
So which is better at decreasing infections distancing or masks and which masks and what distance is optimum? I don't really think 6 foot is such a magic number I think it was just sort of thought up as it is easy to remember.... 6 feet or 2 meters but why not 10 feet or 3 meters instead would that be better in places than masks and 6 feet? Is 6 feet without a mask the same as 3 feet with a mask?
The thing is.... I don't think there are enough information and you don't give us a statistical idea of how less of a chance of infection you have with an N95 vs 2, 3, 4 layer mask vs one with a filter vs a cheap cloth mask vs this and that.
All you have said is "do what I do" and the thing is very few people are going to do as you do and those people are the ones whose crappy masks are the source that is going to infect you, you may lower your chance of infecting others but does your mask protect you better from infection? According to the experts masks are not to protect you but the other guy. 
If this logic holds true you better get out there and tell all the guys in charge to tell people to stop using crappy masks to reduce infections as it may be worse than a non masked person who is 6 foot away vs a crappy masked 2-3 feet away.


----------



## wacbzz

Poppy said:


> To think that we have an upcoming election, and that most of the population will elect based on sound bites. Scary!



While it is unknown exactly who said the following, it sure is apropos...

”The best argument against Democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.”

Is it entirely possible to have too much freedom?


----------



## Greta

So new experience today... can't say it was pleasant. I honestly do NOT go out much and when I do, I try to knock out all my errands in one shot then stay home again for the next four or five days. Today was the first day I ventured out since the mandatory mask proclamation from our mayor last week. Honey came with me. We had our masks with us.

We hit the smoke shop first - no masks worn. They have limited access and a "grab and go" system three days a week for 4 hours each day. Only one person in the shop when we went in... the shop manager. We stayed many feet away, got our smokes and got out. Next we went to the pet store for dog food. People coming and going with and without masks. We didn't wear ours. Got our dog food, a couple of benebones and out the door... less than 5 minutes - everyone was very pleasant. Then to the Chevron. I put my mask on (Honey stayed in the car) and went in. The cashier had her mask over her mouth but below her nose. Her brother, the other cashier, had his mask around his neck. Less than 3 minute transaction... I was sweating by the time I got back out the door.

Then to the grocery store. Short list, mission is to get in and out. Masks on... off we go. We were in the store for no more than 15 minutes. By the time I got to the check out, I was sweating terribly and feeling lightheaded... and starting to panic. The store manager walked by... mask over mouth, below nose. My cashier.. the same. I lowered my mask to get a couple of clear breaths, raised it back up over nose and mouth while I checked out. We all but ran out the door. Took masks off once we got out the door... and for the first time in my 25 years of living here, I was grateful for the 108 degrees and the lovely 8 mph SW breeze. It was actually refreshing.

I'm glad I don't have to go out again for another few days. That was a truly unpleasant experience and one I am kinda inclined to -NOT- get used to.


----------



## Greta

wacbzz said:


> ...
> 
> Is it entirely possible to have too much freedom?



Oooooh... we need to take that to the Underground! 'Cuz I think you might be surprised at my thoughts on that... we might just agree on something yet!


----------



## wacbzz

Greta said:


> Oooooh... we need to take that to the Underground! 'Cuz I think you might be surprised at my thoughts on that... we might just agree on something yet!



That did run through my mind after I posted it because it might come off as political in nature. I honestly didn’t mean it that way though. I have no problems if you want to remove it (and I’ll find a spot downstairs for it!)...


----------



## Greta

wacbzz said:


> That did run through my mind after I posted it because it might come off as political in nature. I honestly didn’t mean it that way though. I have no problems if you want to remove it (and I’ll find a spot downstairs for it!)...



No worries. It's a good reminder that some stuff should go downstairs.


----------



## turbodog

Reminder that there appear to be significant excess deaths due to c-19 that were mis-attributed to other causes.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2767980?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link&ICID=ref_fark

Excerpt:

*Conclusions and Relevance:* Excess deaths provide an estimate of the full COVID-19 burden and indicate that official tallies likely undercount deaths due to the virus. The mortality burden and the completeness of the tallies vary markedly between states.


----------



## bigburly912

turbodog said:


> Reminder that there appear to be significant excess deaths due to c-19 that were mis-attributed to other causes.
> 
> https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/2767980?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link&ICID=ref_fark
> 
> Excerpt:
> 
> *Conclusions and Relevance:* Excess deaths provide an estimate of the full COVID-19 burden and indicate that official tallies likely undercount deaths due to the virus. The mortality burden and the completeness of the tallies vary markedly between states.



That can be flipped the other way as well though. You can easily find several articles that point the other way. Food for thought. Thing is who knows how many people died from December to February before we even knew this thing was here!!


----------



## turbodog

bigburly912 said:


> That can be flipped the other way as well though. You can easily find several articles that point the other way. Food for thought. Thing is who knows how many people died from December to February before we even knew this thing was here!!



Citation(s) or it doesn't exist.


----------



## bigburly912

The cdc literally says:

“In cases where a definite diagnosis of COVID–19 cannot be made, but it is suspected or likely (e.g., the circumstances are compelling within a reasonable degree of certainty), it is acceptable to report COVID–19 on a death certificate as ‘probable’ or ‘presumed.’ In these instances, certifiers should use their best clinical judgement in determining if a COVID–19 infection was likely. However, please note that testing for COVID–19 should be conducted whenever possible.”

That’s not to say the numbers are grossly misepresented and I’m not saying they are. I’m not downplaying this thing, two people I know have died from the virus. However this was a dangerous call for the CDC to make because it puts the narrative out there for people to downplay this virus.

““I don’t think in any case are we over-estimating the deaths due to COVID-19. I think most likely we’re underestimating and in some cases we may be underestimating by a lot,” Bob Anderson, who heads the mortality statistics branch at the CDC’s National Center for Health Statistics, told us by phone. Anderson noted that medical examiners’ offices in the hard-hit state of New York are overwhelmed, and that the state has had an increase in unattended deaths in which COVID-19 was a likely factor, but no tests were available to confirm.

“We’re not asking [health care providers] to write [COVID-19] down for everyone who was possibly exposed. We’re asking only if the patient showed symptoms, and they’re reasonably certain” the patient had the disease, Anderson told us. “When the evidence tells you that COVID-19 was the likely cause of death then you should report it as the likely cause of death, whether you have a lab test or not. And medical examiners, physicians, and coroners are trained to make these determinations.”


----------



## raggie33

btw ive predicted all this months ago.most everything in the news ive predicted. i am not pyscic i just see and understand human pyscholgy and etc etc. ps hold on to ya hats for july


----------



## raggie33

https://youtu.be/bMKgX3V3Y_k


----------



## turbodog

bigburly912 said:


> The cdc literally says:
> 
> “In cases where a definite diagnosis of COVID–19 cannot be made, but it is suspected or likely (e.g., the circumstances are compelling within a reasonable degree of certainty), it is acceptable to report COVID–19 on a death certificate as ‘probable’ or ‘presumed.’ In these instances, certifiers should use their best clinical judgement in determining if a COVID–19 infection was likely. However, please note that testing for COVID–19 should be conducted whenever possible.”
> 
> That’s not to say the numbers are grossly misepresented and I’m not saying they are. I’m not downplaying this thing, two people I know have died from the virus. However this was a dangerous call for the CDC to make because it puts the narrative out there for people to downplay this virus.
> 
> ““I don’t think in any case are we over-estimating the deaths due to COVID-19. I think most likely we’re underestimating and in some cases we may be underestimating by a lot,” Bob Anderson, who heads the mortality statistics branch at the CDC’s National Center for Health Statistics, told us by phone. Anderson noted that medical examiners’ offices in the hard-hit state of New York are overwhelmed, and that the state has had an increase in unattended deaths in which COVID-19 was a likely factor, but no tests were available to confirm.
> 
> “We’re not asking [health care providers] to write [COVID-19] down for everyone who was possibly exposed. We’re asking only if the patient showed symptoms, and they’re reasonably certain” the patient had the disease, Anderson told us. “When the evidence tells you that COVID-19 was the likely cause of death then you should report it as the likely cause of death, whether you have a lab test or not. And medical examiners, physicians, and coroners are trained to make these determinations.”



But what you quoted reaffirms the article I posted...


----------



## idleprocess

bigburly912 said:


> That can be flipped the other way as well though. You can easily find several articles that point the other way. Food for thought. Thing is who knows how many people died from December to February before we even knew this thing was here!!



So find some of those _papers_ and report back.

This article from _The Economist_ has seen regular updates. TL;DR: Over a large enough, well-understood population, death rates can be predicted to a reasonable degree of accuracy, thus huge spikes in unknown deaths during a pandemic suggests undercount of pandemic fatalities or deaths from other causes that the healthcare system would have ordinarily prevented were it not for the pandemic.



bigburly912 said:


> Thing is who knows how many people died from December to February before we even knew this thing was here!!


We know it was very few. But it wasn't a pandemic at the time and we weren't staring down hard limits on ICU capacity.


----------



## bigburly912

idleprocess said:


> We know it was very few. But it wasn't a pandemic at the time and we weren't staring down hard limits on ICU capacity.



It was in China, first cases were for sure in at least as early as November. I mean worldwide not just in the US.


----------



## bigburly912

turbodog said:


> But what you quoted reaffirms the article I posted...



Apparently you didn’t read what I said at all? I said that by the CDC stating that any unknown death should be attributed to Covid without proper testing just based on “we think that’s what it was” they left an open narrative for anyone that wants to argue the validity of deaths attributed to covid. Anyone can say “well the government is lying because deaths not attributed to covid are called covid deaths”. Even though it’s pretty obvious that more people died from it that weren’t counted as covid. 

Does that make sense? Just those guidelines are enough for someone to twist that into what they want.


----------



## KITROBASKIN

When you can find them, graphed historical data of current_ (not cumulative) C_ovid hospitalizations by state, is interesting. Possible unknowns due to some hospitals not reporting and the question of accurate diagnosis. Many states are looking good. Others, well, thinking they may achieve herd immunity 'au naturel' sooner?


----------



## turbodog

bigburly912 said:


> Apparently you didn’t read what I said at all? I said that by the CDC stating that any unknown death should be attributed to Covid without proper testing just based on “we think that’s what it was” they left an open narrative for anyone that wants to argue the validity of deaths attributed to covid. Anyone can say “well the government is lying because deaths not attributed to covid are called covid deaths”. Even though it’s pretty obvious that more people died from it that weren’t counted as covid.
> 
> Does that make sense? Just those guidelines are enough for someone to twist that into what they want.



Yes I read it. 4x. And I've been reading the same thing for months. I've also watched at people use it as an excuse to ignore reality. 

The article from JAMA I linked is one of several noting that even with the 'loose' classifications of c-19 deaths, there are still significant unexplained deaths above historical averages. I'm not speaking to people twisting things around. I'm reminding that we have excess deaths (linked via current reputable source).

It seemed that you had hard evidence of studies/data that pointed the opposite way, no twisting required.


----------



## bigburly912

turbodog said:


> Yes I read it. 4x. And I've been reading the same thing for months. I've also watched at people use it as an excuse to ignore reality.
> 
> The article from JAMA I linked is one of several noting that even with the 'loose' classifications of c-19 deaths, there are still significant unexplained deaths above historical averages. I'm not speaking to people twisting things around. I'm reminding that we have excess deaths (linked via current reputable source).
> 
> It seemed that you had hard evidence of studies/data that pointed the opposite way, no twisting required.



How did you come up with that? I clearly said that it “could be flipped” the other way. Which is easily done when the CDC chose their wording so poorly in that interview. Lots of the conspiracy theory guys are using that interview to say that every death without a positive test during this thing was attributed to covid. I never said I support that argument.


----------



## turbodog

KITROBASKIN said:


> When you can find them, graphed historical data of current_ (not cumulative) C_ovid hospitalizations by state, is interesting. Possible unknowns due to some hospitals not reporting and the question of accurate diagnosis. Many states are looking good. Others, well, thinking they may achieve herd immunity 'au naturel' sooner?



I did some quick looking around. Found some interesting data from CDC.

Short version: tests are running about 15% positive overall. My takeaway from direct feedback from medical people is that as testing is overwhelmed (happening already, and will get worse) expect it to be harder to be tested... your symptoms will need to be significantly more severe before a test is ordered. Nation/worldwide shortage of reagents and limited supply of testing equipment and lab people to runs tests.

Scroll down to the 3 charts of public, clinical, and commercial labs.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/covidview/index.html

If I run across charted hospitalizations I will come back. 

What I think you want to know is how much extra capacity do we have? This is a harder number to track down, or 'pin down'. ICU beds fill up sometimes on normal days, so that doesn't mean what you think it means. ICU capacity can also be expanded... you can put adults in the pediatric ICU. You can put patients in regular rooms. NOTE: this is assuming you have staff to monitor and take care of ICU patients.

C-19 is in the hospitals. I have direct knowledge of staff infected. If you are lucky you catch them at the door with a temp scan, test them, and send them home. If unlucky they work a shift, see patients, hang out at the nurse station, visit cafeteria, visit breakroom, and so on. Then you get to quiz them and review 8-12 hours of security footage to see where they went. Then EVERYBODY gets a fresh test and a LOT of people go home. C-19 is adding significant inefficiencies into al already stressed system.

https://covidtracking.com/data


----------



## turbodog

bigburly912 said:


> How did you come up with that? I clearly said that it “could be flipped” the other way. Which is easily done when the CDC chose their wording so poorly in that interview. Lots of the conspiracy theory guys are using that interview to say that every death without a positive test during this thing was attributed to covid. I never said I support that argument.



Sorry. When we are talking 'articles' I thought that meant accurate & timely data/studies from legitimate sources. Yes, clearly you can find tons of 'stuff people have written' that's a blend of misinformation, bad analysis, false conclusions, and craziness that refutes all manner of things, even the roundness of the earth.


----------



## raggie33

my freinds got the covid 19 they say it feels if your dieing. there both in there 40s and 50s so i hope they beat this mess


----------



## SilverFox

I believe that the best defense is a good offense. 

I am doing everything to increase the strength of my immune system. There seems to be a lot of information on vitamin D defcencies and deaths from the virus. 

I decided to get my vitamin D levels checked. I think I am OK. The test came back at 59 ng/ml.

What are your vitamin D levels...?

Tom


----------



## nbp

No idea but I am outside a couple hours every day for work so I gotta figure I’m all D’d up. [emoji16]


----------



## Bullzeyebill

I checked my last D3 test and it was 47. Still good. I take 2x 
D3's daily, as I am seldom our in the sun.

Bill


----------



## RedLED

What do convicts in prison do for Vit. D?


----------



## Lynx_Arc

turbodog said:


> I did some quick looking around. Found some interesting data from CDC.
> 
> Short version: tests are running about 15% positive overall. My takeaway from direct feedback from medical people is that as testing is overwhelmed (happening already, and will get worse) expect it to be harder to be tested... your symptoms will need to be significantly more severe before a test is ordered. Nation/worldwide shortage of reagents and limited supply of testing equipment and lab people to runs tests.
> 
> Scroll down to the 3 charts of public, clinical, and commercial labs.
> 
> https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/covidview/index.html
> 
> If I run across charted hospitalizations I will come back.
> 
> What I think you want to know is how much extra capacity do we have? This is a harder number to track down, or 'pin down'. ICU beds fill up sometimes on normal days, so that doesn't mean what you think it means. ICU capacity can also be expanded... you can put adults in the pediatric ICU. You can put patients in regular rooms. NOTE: this is assuming you have staff to monitor and take care of ICU patients.
> 
> C-19 is in the hospitals. I have direct knowledge of staff infected. If you are lucky you catch them at the door with a temp scan, test them, and send them home. If unlucky they work a shift, see patients, hang out at the nurse station, visit cafeteria, visit breakroom, and so on. Then you get to quiz them and review 8-12 hours of security footage to see where they went. Then EVERYBODY gets a fresh test and a LOT of people go home. C-19 is adding significant inefficiencies into al already stressed system.
> 
> https://covidtracking.com/data


I heard on a talk show today that in Texas they only have 15% of the people in the ICU are Covid patients the other 85% are people that couldn't get treated in the hospital because the virus shut things down. I suspect a lot of hospitals and patients were put off going to the hospital till recently which can account for a lot of ICU beds full.


----------



## raggie33

i think wearing a mask as farting in a elevater its my right to fart away but i care about others.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

raggie33 said:


> i think wearing a mask as farting in a elevater its my right to fart away but i care about others.



Depends on the type of beans you ate..... regular or covid beans.


----------



## raggie33

Lynx_Arc said:


> Depends on the type of beans you ate..... regular or covid beans.


im rocking 15 bean soup with a bit of sausage i am trying to quit meat so i lower the sausage everytime


----------



## turbodog

Lynx_Arc said:


> I heard on a talk show today that in Texas they only have 15% of the people in the ICU are Covid patients the other 85% are people that couldn't get treated in the hospital because the virus shut things down. I suspect a lot of hospitals and patients were put off going to the hospital till recently which can account for a lot of ICU beds full.



The hospitals I have info from... I don't know the c-19 to 'normal' icu patient mix. I do know that some hospitals are going back to the 'no elective surgery' policy. My cousin, a MD in AL, texted me this morning. He's concerned about an explosion in hospitalization rates in recent days in his state. He's got a fairly good take on AL's status, being over multiple 'family medical clinics' and some ER depts as well.

Not picking on nurses when I talk about positive c-19 staff running around hospital. Same goes for housekeeping, foodservice, bloodbank, hematology, pathology, radiology, phlebotomy, managers, c-suite, interns, etc.

All in healthcare are risking their lives to care for you (and me). Let's respect that and do what we can to help. Stay several feet apart, avoid indoor crowds, mask up, and wash hands.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

It is starting to ramp up here as a city just went to maskdatory startus (mandatory masking) and they are considering it here in my city I have this feeling that it will probably happen and not a good time of year for it either as they are forecasting 100 degrees in the week ahead and heat indexes higher than that as humidity has increased. As I sort of figured the younger folks are tired of the distancing and masks. I don't wear a mask but try and distance myself and also am careful of people who are coughing and sneezing although I sometimes cough due to natural air pollution comes and goes here been coughing a little on/off since winter started last year. 
I guess this is good news in a way as most of the people getting infected are in the lower risk range where deaths are considerably more rare such that as the infections increase the deaths and hospitalization rates and duration are decreasing. All of this is slowly buiding up herd immunity (or maybe due to testing lagging behind building it up faster than realized I am guessing but without accurate numbers who knows if it will take a year to reduce the "victim" pool down to levels that maskaparting is no longer the norm.


----------



## raggie33

Lynx_Arc said:


> It is starting to ramp up here as a city just went to maskdatory startus (mandatory masking) and they are considering it here in my city I have this feeling that it will probably happen and not a good time of year for it either as they are forecasting 100 degrees in the week ahead and heat indexes higher than that as humidity has increased. As I sort of figured the younger folks are tired of the distancing and masks. I don't wear a mask but try and distance myself and also am careful of people who are coughing and sneezing although I sometimes cough due to natural air pollution comes and goes here been coughing a little on/off since winter started last year.
> I guess this is good news in a way as most of the people getting infected are in the lower risk range where deaths are considerably more rare such that as the infections increase the deaths and hospitalization rates and duration are decreasing. All of this is slowly buiding up herd immunity (or maybe due to testing lagging behind building it up faster than realized I am guessing but without accurate numbers who knows if it will take a year to reduce the "victim" pool down to levels that maskaparting is no longer the norm.



do you live in hell? good lord 100 degrees? wtf no joke it was 85 here yesterday and i got **** walking to the store


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## raggie33

raggie33 said:


> do you live in hell? good lord 100 degrees? wtf no joke it was 85 here yesterday and i got sick walking to the store


----------



## bigburly912

I’m in southwestern Virginia and it’s been high 80 low 90 all week. I’m in an area where nobody feels the need to mask anyway it seems. And the new fun thing to do is go to pigeon forge tennessee and bring back covid. It’s a fun time.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Not hell... just Oklahoma where we often get into the 100s in the summer with humidity that pushes heat indexes sometimes into the 110 degree ranges. We tend to be more used to it than people who don't have that hot of a climate. Years back my relatives from Phoenix came here for a few weeks in the summer and they were struggling with the humidity, as they have it a lot hotter there but I think the humidity there is sometimes so low that it actually has lower heat index than the actual temperature? I may be wrong about that though they were struggling and complaining about getting hot because they were not used to sweating so much to keep cool.

Now my sister lives in Houston and there it is a LOT more humid and about as hot as it is here if not a little hotter at times I would not want to live there in the summer and be outdoors for more than a short time.... ugh.


----------



## bigburly912

So if SPCO offers me a job in Oklahoma I know to graciously decline haha


----------



## raggie33

Lynx_Arc said:


> Not hell... just Oklahoma where we often get into the 100s in the summer with humidity that pushes heat indexes sometimes into the 110 degree ranges. We tend to be more used to it than people who don't have that hot of a climate. Years back my relatives from Phoenix came here for a few weeks in the summer and they were struggling with the humidity, as they have it a lot hotter there but I think the humidity there is sometimes so low that it actually has lower heat index than the actual temperature? I may be wrong about that though they were struggling and complaining about getting hot because they were not used to sweating so much to keep cool.
> 
> Now my sister lives in Houston and there it is a LOT more humid and about as hot as it is here if not a little hotter at times I would not want to live there in the summer and be outdoors for more than a short time.... ugh.


i rather it be 40 below then hot i judt cant deal with heat in winter i dont even turn on my heat. then the hoa made me get rid of my ac so now i have to use them portable units that has a vent hose in the window


----------



## Lynx_Arc

raggie33 said:


> i rather it be 40 below then hot i judt cant deal with heat in winter i dont even turn on my heat. then the hoa made me get rid of my ac so now i have to use them portable units that has a vent hose in the window


You can have the 40 below stuff I don't care much for it as often you end up with a cough that lasts for weeks and working on cold pavement makes my feet hurt after awhile.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

bigburly912 said:


> So if SPCO offers me a job in Oklahoma I know to graciously decline haha


Yup.. you better as we don't need your kind here. (insert evil laugh here) 
Most of the people I've heard of that move here like it with the exception of the weather being different we actually have summers and winters but winters are a lot more mild often like spring compared to northern states but we do usually have snow which freaks out some of those from places like California. I also think that some areas of the state and cities are a lot better than others in the corner of the state we are in here we typically have a lot of green to it while some parts out west are dryer


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## Poppy

raggie33 said:


> i rather it be 40 below then hot i judt cant deal with heat in winter i dont even turn on my heat. then the hoa made me get rid of my ac so now i have to use them portable units that has a vent hose in the window


raggie,
I hope that you got dual hose units, not single hose units.
Dual hose units, pull in outside air to cool the hot side of the AC unit, and blows it back out hotter.
But it doesn't cause a vacuum inside the house/apartment.

Single hose units, use air from inside the house (that you already paid to cool) to cool the hot side of the AC unit, and blows it outside.
This creates a vacuum inside the house/apt which will be filled by the outside (hot air).

Overall, dual hose units are cheaper to operate.


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## idleprocess

Poppy said:


> raggie,
> I hope that you got dual hose units, not single hose units.
> Dual hose units, pull in outside air to cool the hot side of the AC unit, and blows it back out hotter.
> But it doesn't cause a vacuum inside the house/apartment.
> 
> Single hose units, use air from inside the house (that you already paid to cool) to cool the hot side of the AC unit, and blows it outside.
> This creates a vacuum inside the house/apt which will be filled by the outside (hot air).
> 
> Overall, dual hose units are cheaper to operate.



Unfortunately, the reality of portable AC units is that they're *all* markedly less efficient than a window unit. The realities of packaging them, handling condensate, and trying - _trying_ - to make them acceptably quiet comes at the cost of efficiency.

Good luck _finding_ a dual-hose portable AC these days. I've never seen them at the likes of the Home Despot and even on the 'zon they're a vanishing breed. Suspect that the greater cost of a 2-hose unit and the diminished _consumer experience_ of two hoses verses one has selected the sub-genre for extinction in the consumer space.

Lastly, once you get past the general truth that single-hose is less efficient than dual hose, the real-world differences are ... not quantified ... in the searching I've done on the subject. _The Wirecutter_ claims that the differences are marginal, but frustratingly also fails to provide data.


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## Poppy

Last year we bought a 14000 btu dual hose Friedrich portable unit with an EER of 9.5

The compressor is really quiet. Three fan speeds, and on high, it is a little loud, but low, fairly quiet.

Neither Lowes, nor Home Depot had ANY dual hose units. We got ours at Best Buy.

I figured that the single hose units were a stupid design. I know that a fireplace, that is not designed to burn outside air, makes the rest of the house cooler/cold due to the vacuum it creates by way of the chimney. Therefore, it stands to reason, that a single hose AC unit will create a vacuum in the house, that will be replaced by the hot humid outside air. That's why I searched for, and insisted on a dual hose unit.

After I installed it, I spoke with my brother, who had a couple portable units. Unbeknownst to me, they were single hose units. He sealed up and insulated his detached garage, and used one of the single hose portables in it. At first it seemed to cool, but as it got warmer out, and it had run for a while, it couldn't keep up at all. He realized that the HOT Attic air was getting in through the access panel in the ceiling, and filling the garage with hot air, replacing the cool air that was being blown out of the room by the AC unit.

He put a hole in the wall, and put in a small window AC unit and has been comfortably cool even on much hotter days.
He got rid of his portable units.


----------



## Monocrom

raggie33 said:


> my freinds got the covid 19 they say it feels if your dieing. there both in there 40s and 50s so i hope they beat this mess



Please check in on them from time to time.... by phone. 
I'm sure they'd appreciate it. At my Co-op, we have four separate boards with four separate board Presidents residing over them. Boards are simply marked numbers 1 - 4. President of #1 passed away from Covid-19 awhile back. A friend of his posted that info. on the front door of every building. A day later, those postings were gone. Guessing members of the various Boards, or maybe just building management, figured such news might panic the other residents. A huge chunk of whom are elderly.


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## raggie33

me and the hoa dont get allong (insert colorful language here)my hoa. well back to my ac i wss broke when they told me to remove my window unit i had to get one for 270 bucks.i wanted dual hose my unit is at 75 degrees now it will cost me around 4 bucks per day in power. this is total for my house i like to keep it under 2 bucks but i cant in summer


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## Monocrom

RedLED said:


> What do convicts in prison do for Vit. D?



Some prisons, though not all, have vitamins that can be purchased by prisoners at the commissary. 

Vitamin D is typically added to milk that folks can buy anywhere. Prisoners do get served milk, at least at breakfast time. Though again, seriously doubt all prisons do that. And the amount of vitamin D in milk seems rather small.


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## idleprocess

In my experience, the best use for portable AC units is supplementary cooling; my use has been supplementing the primary AC which has never cooled my home office well.



Poppy said:


> Last year we bought a 14000 btu dual hose Friedrich portable unit with an EER of 9.5
> 
> The compressor is really quiet. Three fan speeds, and on high, it is a little loud, but low, fairly quiet.


I'll consider looking at that model if I need to replace the horrific LG I got for next to nothing, I can't revive the old Whynter dual-hose I used for years, and I can't improve the insulation to the point that the central AC can handle things. A window unit would be ideal, but this is the front of the house, I've got monolithic solar screens over a compound window, and accessing the second floor from the ground is _cumbersome_, thus the solution has been the loathed portable AC.


----------



## Poppy

Perhaps a "ductless mini-split air conditioner" would work for you.
I've never done one, but they appear easy enough for a DIY install and come pre-charged with refrigerant.

They are very quiet, or can be.You might be able to install the condenser coil on the side of the house, and place the evaporator unit anywhere you have wall space within 25' of the condenser coil.


----------



## Hooked on Fenix

Has anyone else noticed the signs in stores saying there is a coin and small dollar bill shortage? Apparently, the treasury isn't making as much as usual and with so many places closed, there is less in circulation due to the virus. Stores are asking for exact change. Some store lines aren't accepting cash. Hope nobody has to do their laundry at a laundrymat anytime soon.

As for the hospitals being full, yes, I've heard that few beds are taken up from corona virus patients. The majority are from a backlog of "elective" surgery patients. To me, elective means not essential like cosmetic surgeries or liposuction. The "elective" surgeries that have been postponed include ones that are essential such as ones to keep cancer from spreading, eye surgeries, etc. These are often the types of surgeries that if you postpone, you have an increased risk of fatality or postpone the patient from being able to work to support themselves. I consider those essential. My dad was finally able to get surgery to fix his foot and is waiting for approval for eye surgery. The hospitals not being allowed to perform these surgeries has brought the industry near to bankruptcy and some hospitals have already closed or laid off workers because of it. If they cancel these "elective" surgeries again, it won't help anyone.


----------



## turbodog

Hooked on Fenix said:


> ...
> 
> As for the hospitals being full, yes, I've heard that few beds are taken up from corona virus patients. The majority are from a backlog of "elective" surgery patients. To me, elective means not essential like cosmetic surgeries or liposuction. The "elective" surgeries that have been postponed include ones that are essential such as ones to keep cancer from spreading, eye surgeries, etc. These are often the types of surgeries that if you postpone, you have an increased risk of fatality or postpone the patient from being able to work to support themselves. I consider those essential. My dad was finally able to get surgery to fix his foot and is waiting for approval for eye surgery. The hospitals not being allowed to perform these surgeries has brought the industry near to bankruptcy and some hospitals have already closed or laid off workers because of it. If they cancel these "elective" surgeries again, it won't help anyone.



Elective is non-life threatening. It would include knee/hip replacements, etc.

MS shutdown elective 2 days ago. https://msdh.ms.gov/msdhsite/_static/resources/8718.pdf

This is for procedures when OVERNIGHT stay(s) are expected. Same day is not affected (yet).


----------



## Monocrom

Hooked on Fenix said:


> Has anyone else noticed the signs in stores saying there is a coin and small dollar bill shortage? Apparently, the treasury isn't making as much as usual and with so many places closed, there is less in circulation due to the virus. Stores are asking for exact change. Some store lines aren't accepting cash. Hope nobody has to do their laundry at a laundrymat anytime soon.



Thankfully no, that's not the case here in New York city. Stores still accept cash, and can still give out proper change without any issue. As for laundry, I'm thankful to live in a building with a dedicated laundry room. Machines use Laundry Card readers which residents can purchase and refill from a small machine located in the room itself. Makes things very convenient. Refill the card with singles, a fiver, ten, or twenty dollar bill; and you're good. You'll find the same set-up in many college residents Halls around the city as well.


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## Lynx_Arc

Hooked on Fenix said:


> Has anyone else noticed the signs in stores saying there is a coin and small dollar bill shortage? Apparently, the treasury isn't making as much as usual and with so many places closed, there is less in circulation due to the virus. Stores are asking for exact change. Some store lines aren't accepting cash. Hope nobody has to do their laundry at a laundrymat anytime soon.
> 
> As for the hospitals being full, yes, I've heard that few beds are taken up from corona virus patients. The majority are from a backlog of "elective" surgery patients. To me, elective means not essential like cosmetic surgeries or liposuction. The "elective" surgeries that have been postponed include ones that are essential such as ones to keep cancer from spreading, eye surgeries, etc. These are often the types of surgeries that if you postpone, you have an increased risk of fatality or postpone the patient from being able to work to support themselves. I consider those essential. My dad was finally able to get surgery to fix his foot and is waiting for approval for eye surgery. The hospitals not being allowed to perform these surgeries has brought the industry near to bankruptcy and some hospitals have already closed or laid off workers because of it. If they cancel these "elective" surgeries again, it won't help anyone.


I was in a WM a few days ago that all their self serve registers were card only (no cash) and I had to buy $6 of groceries on a card which I typically don't like to do often. As far as elective surgery you have to remember that doctors who are surgeons have been also shut down due to the virus and not have had their normal income which one of their bills probably includes a large student loan etc. 
I think the media is capitalizing on the idea that Covid is overrunning the ICU and I've seen forums/threads elsewhere where people are failing to mention that 85% of the beds in Texas hospitals are filled with NON covid patients (only 15% Covid) trying to freak people out that with the idea the virus has the 85% and the "death" cases are going to skyrocket. 
Waiting 3 months in discomfort is not a good thing sometimes the stress can cause problems for some people who an elective surgery can make the quality of their life increase tremendously.


----------



## turbodog

Yes, but when an ICU fills up, regardless of what patients are in there, it's full. This is a problem for c-19 and normal patients also.

Florida spiked (and has continued). Their ICU lags infection by a couple of weeks. Then deaths will lag that by a couple more. It's coming...


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## Lynx_Arc

turbodog said:


> Yes, but when an ICU fills up, regardless of what patients are in there, it's full. This is a problem for c-19 and normal patients also.
> 
> Florida spiked (and has continued). Their ICU lags infection by a couple of weeks. Then deaths will lag that by a couple more. It's coming...



I agree, and many hospitals have methods to deal with their ICU filling up they can relegate other parts of the hospital as ICU units with some work that will function well enough. I read a web site by Texas Medical Center where they have 3 phases of expansion of the hospital to handle increasing ICU loads already planned but that won't stop the media from trying to instill the idea that ICU unit beds are a static amount and if there aren't any left (because they say so) then people will die and that isn't true. Hospitals cannot stop operating just to make sure potential Covid victims have beds for them and when beds are empty in the hospital their operating costs are split among the beds that are full too many empty beds can put a hospital in the red and cause more unemployment so there is a balancing act that can be done no need to freak out and shut down everyone because of the virus just adjust and move on.


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## turbodog

I said some of this in a recent post. ICU being full is not end of world... maybe a precursor. Watch for hospitals going into bypass mode. I know there are a growing # of these in FL and AL. Central MS is hitting critical levels as well.


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## Lynx_Arc

turbodog said:


> I said some of this in a recent post. ICU being full is not end of world... maybe a precursor. Watch for hospitals going into bypass mode. I know there are a growing # of these in FL and AL. Central MS is hitting critical levels as well.


Probably those hospitals ICU's are mostly full of non Covid patients too.


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## turbodog

One I have seen are required to maintain 25% free ICU capacity in order to perform elective surgery.


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## Lynx_Arc

turbodog said:


> One I have seen are required to maintain 25% free ICU capacity in order to perform elective surgery.


I'm sure in time of crisis that rule is bendable.


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## raggie33

so do we still have cpfers who wont wear a mask? i love you all in a way youll love ya brother or sister or a freind


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## nbp

I’d love to take in a jar of change to the bank but the lobby is still closed. I’m pretty sure that’s what’s causing the change shortage. Can’t cash in change when all the banks are drive through only.


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## Lynx_Arc

raggie33 said:


> so do we still have cpfers who wont wear a mask? i love you all in a way youll love ya brother or sister or a freind


Can I breathe on you?


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## raggie33

lol on the the good things about being socaily phobic no one gets close enough to breath on me. but if its lady gaga id break my rule or hallie berry lol


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## turbodog

nbp said:


> I’d love to take in a jar of change to the bank but the lobby is still closed. I’m pretty sure that’s what’s causing the change shortage. Can’t cash in change when all the banks are drive through only.



You've got the coinmaster machines in grocery stores, but they charge a percentage for redemption. Bank is free. Put it in a bag and drop it in the night drop with your info in the bag.


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## bigburly912

turbodog said:


> You've got the coinmaster machines in grocery stores, but they charge a percentage for redemption. Bank is free. Put it in a bag and drop it in the night drop with your info in the bag.



I’ve lived in three states and banked with several. Never seen such a thing haha


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## Lynx_Arc

nbp said:


> I’d love to take in a jar of change to the bank but the lobby is still closed. I’m pretty sure that’s what’s causing the change shortage. Can’t cash in change when all the banks are drive through only.



Go to a grocery store and I bet they will buy all you have gladly.


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## RedLED

turbodog said:


> You've got the coinmaster machines in grocery stores, but they charge a percentage for redemption. Bank is free. Put it in a bag and drop it in the night drop with your info in the bag.


Make sure you have the coins rolled, banks Won't roll them for you. And if you drop them, write your name on each roll. You just cannot take a bunch of coins in unwrapped, so go to the bank first and get the rolls.


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## ledbetter

https://johnnyswing.com/coin-furniture/
make furniture!


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## turbodog

RedLED said:


> Make sure you have the coins rolled, banks Won't roll them for you. And if you drop them, write your name on each roll. You just cannot take a bunch of coins in unwrapped, so go to the bank first and get the rolls.



Coinstar machines take loose coins.

https://www.coinstar.com/findakiosk

All the local banks take loose coins also. They bag them, tag them, send downtown for processing. Deposit shows up next day. Bank does not change anything for customers.


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## nbp

I don’t need the cash at the moment. I’m just saying it’s likely one of the causes of the coin shortage. My bank dumps the coins in a counter, they tell me how much, and I can deposit or get cash.


----------



## turbodog

nbp said:


> I don’t need the cash at the moment. I’m just saying it’s likely one of the causes of the coin shortage. My bank dumps the coins in a counter, they tell me how much, and I can deposit or get cash.



More of a general FYI. I see tons of people paying surcharge at coinstar machines. Most don't know banks count loose coins for free.
Of of my bank branches actually had a self-serve machine in the bank... corner of lobby. Didn't last though. they took it out.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

turbodog said:


> More of a general FYI. I see tons of people paying surcharge at coinstar machines. Most don't know banks count loose coins for free.
> Of of my bank branches actually had a self-serve machine in the bank... corner of lobby. Didn't last though. they took it out.



Some banks do it for free other charge even their own patrons. Like I said I would bet money almost any retail establishment would love to have more change as Another place I shopped at with self service didn't have a machine that would take cash due to no change.


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## Kestrel

Haven't seen banks here that take loose change.
Years ago I got rid of a huge jar of change by pocketing the nickels/dimes/etc, and running the pennies through the CoinStar machine for $7 or so.
Figured it was the best use of my time vs. minimizing fees.


----------



## RedLED

Well, we do not have any coins so I cannot test the system.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

I just started the habit of spending my change about 20 years ago or so. I rarely have more than $3 worth of pocket change on me usually about $1.50 as I used to keep a few quarters for pay phones but you can't find them any more and I have a smart phone now and most food vending machines take $1 bills.


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## markr6

raggie33 said:


> so do we still have cpfers who wont wear a mask? i love you all in a way youll love ya brother or sister or a freind



I've held off for a long time. Just recently started wearing one after looking around and seeing 9/10 people wearing them. And this is in a place where the virus doesn't seem to be taken very seriously.

I wasn't on board with making a political statement or exercising my rights; I just didn't really care. But regardless whether or not it helps...it certainly doesn't hurt. Just wear it to avoid dirty looks and make people feel better. Everyone is off balance lately anyway. I feel bad for employees that have to wear it all day. But for me, 15 minutes of shopping, no big deal.

From the beginning, I couldn't really care less if I got this thing. Then I start hearing about some long-term effects. Ehh, not so sure now.

Regarding coins, I just walked past the change sorter/counter (I work at a bank) and saw the last readout on the screen "$1,032.90". That guy must have pushed in a wheelbarrow!


----------



## Monocrom

For those curious about the latest national and state statistics, NY1 News (Biggest news channel here in New York State that mainly focuses on local and state news stories); has just announced *400,000 *confirmed cases of Covid-19 infection in the state. 

Also.... While looking to organize the items in my apartment and store them away, stumbled across two giant packs of fake masks. These are one-layer, ridiculously thin synthetic fabric that _feels _like the very thin material used in making Ladies silk nightgowns. (Though obviously it's not silk.) Olson style mask pattern, with the nose section not nearly as pronounced as it should be. And integrated ear-loops cut out of the material itself. So literally a one-piece mask in that regard. But sewn down the middle to keep it from being completely flat.

Now, I don't remember even getting these. Then again, with all the mask deliveries I've gotten over the last 3 or 4 months (quite a few for donation purposes); I guess that's not surprising. Seriously, you could take one of these, fold it in half, easily put it in a standard business-length envelope, mail it off to someone; and no one at the post office would even notice anything unusual about the envelope. 

To clarify, these aren't sold like the Outlaw T68-SP "helmet." Which is literally just a skull-cap intentionally sold so some bikers can be compliant with mandatory helmet laws, when they don't want to wear helmets. Meeting the strict letter of such laws, they protect nothing! Might as well be wearing a paper-hat folded up from a newspaper as head protection. 

No, these "masks" are sold as being the real thing. To many people in desperate need of masks who think these will be good to get. Just disgusting all the various ways some folks are profiteering off of this planetary pandemic. Sitting here with these things though, it occurs to me that quite a few folks would happily buy them. The same ones who would buy an Outlaw T68-SP "helmet." Same ones who know full well they're buying something designed to only _look _like the real thing, just to comply with the strict letter of the law. 

I could re-sell these as such. Or even offer to give them away. They're so ridiculously flimsy and thin. Tried one on. Ironically it stays on the face, as long as you don't talk or move your mouth at all. Oh well, I've never been much of a businessman at all in Life. And, no way in hell is my conscience going to allow me to give these away. Looks like my EDC Ontario RAT-2 is going to get to chew through some integrated ear-loops before I chuck these disgusting things in the trash where they belong.


----------



## bigburly912

They’d probably be good for mowing. Not everyone wears masks just for covid.


----------



## Monocrom

bigburly912 said:


> They’d probably be good for mowing. Not everyone wears masks just for covid.



You know.... That's honestly an excellent point. I just can't help thinking, knowing human nature; if I gave these away practically everyone who received one would wear them when out about in Public. And with masks, it really is about if everyone wore a mask, then people would be protected from other people's germs. 

I mean, the mask _you_ wear protects me from your germs. The one I wear protects you from mine. I don't think I'm doing a good job of conveying how that works. 

Someone once told me a story about the difference between Heaven and Hell. (No worries, has nothing to do with organized religion.) So one day, during an odd get-together, residents of both were allowed to intermingle. Someone stuck in Hell was complaining that they were horribly, psychologically tortured. For example: A giant table with the finest foods was set before them. Huge, large table. Everyone sat around it. You could eat anything you wanted. As much as you wanted. Only rule was, you had to use a spoon issued to you to get the food into your mouth. 

The torture was, the spoons were made up of an extremely light-weight material; and they were 9 feet long. And there was only a very small section of the spoon near the top where you could grip it. Enjoy! And, obviously the resident of Hell was complaining that everyday they sat there, unable to eat. Starving, until they were finally allowed to leave for the day. Just to come back in a few hours for more of the same. No one able to feed themselves.

The resident of Heaven admitted something rather odd. He admitted that they had the very same table, the very same delicious foods, and incredibly; the very same spoons! Surprised, the resident of Hell, asked how that could be. The one from Heaven said that they use their spoons to_ feed each other._ Everyone in Hell only thought about themselves. So each one quickly realized there was no way to use his or her spoon to feed themselves. Never occurring to any of them to use their spoon to feed someone else, and have the favor returned. 

So, it was a form of psychological torture. One they inflicted on themselves. You use your spoon to feed others. They return the favor with their spoons. _Your_ mask is worn to protect others. They return the favor with their masks. Hopefully I did a good job of explaining that. 

(Yes, I'm sure someone will mention all the germs on the ends of the spoons in Heaven. But hopefully folks will get the meaning behind that story. Sadly, seems Earth is closer in mentality to Hell, than Heaven.)


----------



## turbodog

markr6 said:


> ...
> 
> From the beginning, I couldn't really care less if I got this thing. Then I start hearing about some long-term effects. Ehh, not so sure now.
> 
> ...



When you needlessly catch it you take up resources (clinic, nurse, doctor, PPE for all of the above, testing supplies, lab tech time, instrument time, etc) needed for others. You mind saying what state you are in?


----------



## raggie33

would bleech diluted work as hand cleaner to kill corona? i know it isnt perfect but i say its better then covid 19


----------



## turbodog

raggie33 said:


> would bleech diluted work as hand cleaner to kill corona? i know it isnt perfect but i say its better then covid 19



Yes, but it's not needed. Simple soap and water (not even antibacterial soap) does an excellent job of washing it off you. And now that alcohol-based hand sanitizer is available in stores again, you should not have to try and find alternative things to use.


----------



## raggie33

turbodog said:


> Yes, but it's not needed. Simple soap and water (not even antibacterial soap) does an excellent job of washing it off you. And now that alcohol-based hand sanitizer is available in stores again, you should not have to try and find alternative things to use.


i mean more for when im out going shoping. that credit card machine scares me and the front door of the store.


----------



## turbodog

raggie33 said:


> i mean more for when im out going shoping. that credit card machine scares me and the front door of the store.



I try to grab door handles by part that people don't touch. If the top is the easy part to grab, I usually grab the bottom. If a handle is in the sunlight I try for that part...sunlight will kill viruses/bacteria fairly quickly. Or just wait for someone else to walk through the door...

You might be able to use your smartphone to pay... then you don't usually have to touch the credit card machine at all.


----------



## PhotonWrangler

turbodog said:


> I try to grab door handles by part that people don't touch. If the top is the easy part to grab, I usually grab the bottom. If a handle is in the sunlight I try for that part....



I've been doing this since before Covid-19. Now I don't feel so weird.


----------



## raggie33

PhotonWrangler said:


> I've been doing this since before Covid-19. Now I don't feel so weird.


in winter i use my sleeve for a decade or so.


----------



## Hooked on Fenix

turbodog said:


> Elective is non-life threatening. It would include knee/hip replacements, etc.
> 
> MS shutdown elective 2 days ago. https://msdh.ms.gov/msdhsite/_static/resources/8718.pdf
> 
> This is for procedures when OVERNIGHT stay(s) are expected. Same day is not affected (yet).



No, "elective" surgeries are those that aren't immediately life threatening. Tell a cancer patient that their procedure can wait, and you very well may have killed them. Call colonoscopies elective and you lose the only way you have to diagnose colon cancer and by the time the doctors figure it out, it's too late for the patient. This news article gives you a better idea of what "elective" surgeries are: https://abcnews.go.com/Health/covid...-difficult-choices-elective/story?id=69693791


----------



## turbodog

Hooked on Fenix said:


> No, "elective" surgeries are those that aren't immediately life threatening. Tell a cancer patient that their procedure can wait, and you very well may have killed them. Call colonoscopies elective and you lose the only way you have to diagnose colon cancer and by the time the doctors figure it out, it's too late for the patient. This news article gives you a better idea of what "elective" surgeries are: https://abcnews.go.com/Health/covid...-difficult-choices-elective/story?id=69693791



I should have put immediately, or can wait for a reasonable amount of time w/o significantly affecting patient outcome.

However, I did note that this applies to procedures anticipating overnight stays, so your colonoscopy is a 'go'.

In a related note, 5 major hospitals in MS are now in 'bypass' mode. Which for MS means pretty much any good hospital in the state is now hosed.


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

bigburly912 said:


> They’d probably be good for mowing. Not everyone wears masks just for covid.



Exactly! I have five or six N95 masks lying around. I purchase them (or used to) in a ten pack for various dusty grounds maintenance.


----------



## raggie33

speaking a colon thingy for two weeks i have a box im supposed to leave my food that passed thru my digestive track. aka bowel movment. i just cant do this its to damn weird. i dont even like to look in toilet to y movent went to the sewer


----------



## raggie33

part of me wants to send in dog feces


----------



## turbodog

raggie33 said:


> speaking a colon thingy for two weeks i have a box im supposed to leave my food that passed thru my digestive track. aka bowel movment. i just cant do this its to damn weird. i dont even like to look in toilet to y movent went to the sewer



It's a normal day for a lab tech. Blood, stool, etc. That's not the worst thing they've seen. Trust me.


----------



## raggie33

so as a young man i went from watching a rock band playing music with a chainsaw then useing chain saw to cut are table in half! and now im pooping in a box and loseing my breath when ever its over 75 f outside.


----------



## bigburly912

raggie33 said:


> so as a young man i went from watching a rock band playing music with a chainsaw then useing chain saw to cut are table in half! and now im pooping in a box and loseing my breath when ever its over 75 f outside.



Jackyl?


----------



## raggie33

bigburly912 said:


> Jackyl?


yes they was are local band i used to fix the hvac in there famoues kmart video


----------



## raggie33

https://youtu.be/qCm6re-RTdc


----------



## Dave D




----------



## WarriorOfLight

@Dave D, great picture that explains everything. :twothumbs:twothumbs:twothumbs

There should be no additional discussion necessary to wear a mask or not! Except the goal is 4.000.000 infections in one week.


----------



## raggie33

now when i go to the grocery store i wear nothing but adult diapers and one boot on one foot and avpanda slipper on the other foot i then yell free bird! no one gets with in 20 feet of me if they do i make the kissy face and wink


----------



## Dave D

raggie33 said:


> now when i go to the grocery store i wear nothing but adult diapers and one boot on one foot and avpanda slipper on the other foot i then yell free bird! no one gets with in 20 feet of me if they do i make the kissy face and wink



I like your style!!


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Dave D said:


>


I've seen a video where they take a can of deodorant and spray it through all sort of masks at distances of a foot or more.
Too often the "details" from maskvocates are relying on top of the line masks in their statistics and videos when it the person who is infected may often be wearing something not much better than sneezing through a cheap facial tissue which means the "two masks" picture will equal the first or top picture there that is why they always mandate social distancing to totally escape the "fog" produced there and distancing can mean putting the heads on the pictures off the screen on both sides.


----------



## idleprocess

Lynx_Arc said:


> Too often the "details" from maskvocates are relying on top of the line masks in their statistics and videos


I've seen all kinds of material on the subject of masks. Yes, there is encouragement to use better than a single layer of undershirt material, but it's not an all-or-nothing affair - literally _any significant reduction_ of water droplet transmission by a carrier or reception by someone healthy is worthwhile since it takes ~3000 viral particles ingested through a common pathway in a very brief period of time for an infection to establish a foothold. Actual filter material (N95, KN95, FFP2, PM2.5, etc) in a well-constructed mask used appropriately are ideal, but even the aforementioned undershirt material markedly reduces exposure, especially when coupled with avoidance of crowds and indoor spaces with recirculating air.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

idleprocess said:


> I've seen all kinds of material on the subject of masks. Yes, there is encouragement to use better than a single layer of undershirt material, but it's not an all-or-nothing affair - literally _any significant reduction_ of water droplet transmission by a carrier or reception by someone healthy is worthwhile since it takes ~3000 viral particles ingested through a common pathway in a very brief period of time for an infection to establish a foothold. Actual filter material (N95, KN95, FFP2, PM2.5, etc) in a well-constructed mask used appropriately are ideal, but even the aforementioned undershirt material markedly reduces exposure, especially when coupled with avoidance of crowds and indoor spaces with recirculating air.


I think the big issue is that apparently masks are not effective enough that you cannot get by without distancing which means that a substantial amount of the virus is being expelled out of them that you have to be farther away and that the recommended 6' distance that at the start was for people with and without masks was good enough but now... distancing isn't good enough and masks aren't good enough either which to me sounds more like we have people who do not distance and like I said it may be because of all the "safe" hype about masks have them going from being afraid unmasked to fearless being masked.
Again.... not much information about masked vs unmasked vs distancing studies in all of this so we are blindly trusting those in charge who from the start have shown how inept they are about this virus now they are suddenly experts.... go figure.


----------



## turbodog

Any physical barrier between you and another, no matter how slight, will stop a certain percentage of droplets. Even n95 does not stop everything, but it's clearly better than nothing. So even a t-shirt over your face will help.

I encourage everyone to keep a close eye on FL, AZ, AL, MS, TX, GA for the immediate future.

Infections are ramping up, hospitalizations will follow, then deaths.

By 8-15-2020, the US total confirmed and daily new infections will double. Bet you a case of new 123 cells.


----------



## idleprocess

turbodog said:


> By 8-15-2020, the US total confirmed and daily new infections will double. Bet you a case of new 123 cells.



By 8-15-2020 any furtive "return to the office" plans my employer has implemented will likely be tossed on the scrapheap.


----------



## PhotonWrangler

I agree that masks alone aren't enough to prevent the spread 100%. It has to be a belt-and-suspenders approach, a mix of masks, distancing and sanitizing. 

I'm no expert in masks, but here are 70 studies by people who are. Many of these studies are from this year.


----------



## turbodog

idleprocess said:


> By 8-15-2020 any furtive "return to the office" plans my employer has implemented will likely be tossed on the scrapheap.



Yup. I helped some clients transition to work-from-home. They keep asking when I think they will move back. It's not my call clearly, but I tell them not anytime soon.

Schools reopen for normal, full classes in a month. Don't know if that's statewide, but at least locally that's the "plan".


----------



## idleprocess

turbodog said:


> Schools reopen for normal, full classes in a month. Don't know if that's statewide, but at least locally that's the "plan".



TX really really really wants to go back to normal in that regard _at the state level_. Urban and suburban districts are decidedly reluctant since the same factors that forced the awkward remote-learning March-June are still present only moreso.


----------



## SilverFox

A new way to breathe

I found this very interesting... I guess it is not really new since it has been observed over the last hundred years or so.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t27E6qAKMto 

The idea that less is more and offers more benefits (including protection from viral infection) has me reviewing how I breathe.

Tom


----------



## ledbetter

What’s being accepted as three of the biggest risk factors: crowds, extended time indoors, and yelling cannot be avoided in any public school.


----------



## turbodog

ledbetter said:


> What’s being accepted as three of the biggest risk factors: crowds, extended time indoors, and yelling cannot be avoided in any public school.



Agreed more or less. However, if you do distance learning 1) some kids will be completely left behinds due to no internet, no pc, no place to concentrate 2) more kids will not get a full education and 3) the gap between the haves and have not will widen. Kids in k-12 last year and this year will become known as the lost generation.

Currently, the kids will spread the disease but won't usually die from it.


----------



## ledbetter

turbodog said:


> Agreed more or less. However, if you do distance learning 1) some kids will be completely left behinds due to no internet, no pc, no place to concentrate 2) more kids will not get a full education and 3) the gap between the haves and have not will widen. Kids in k-12 last year and this year will become known as the lost generation.
> 
> Currently, the kids will spread the disease but won't usually die from it.


Completely agree, the kids need it. The problem is the adults-they will get sick, and then who’ll educate the desperately needy kids?


----------



## turbodog

ledbetter said:


> Completely agree, the kids need it. The problem is the adults-they will get sick, and then who’ll educate the desperately needy kids?



We persevere and make do.

This is literally a war, and should be treated as such. It's impossible to have zero losses. But we try to be smart about it. Even if the feds could write a check tomorrow for 5 trillion for an immediate vaccine... that's still a loss. That's 5 trillion that won't go to education, military, infrastructure, etc.

When the schools go back I don't see how the numbers will NOT spike. At that point, if I were a public policy maker, I would refer to contact tracing and age groups to see where it goes after the kids get it. Then you can make educated guesses based on healthcare resources.

I read a lot of books on economics, poverty, sociology, public policy, history, business mgmt, and so on. I find the whole thing fascinating and feel we are simultaneously lucky and unlucky to live during it. This event is going to generate enough data to keep a million economists, sociologists, psychologists, etc busy for the rest of their lives.

I wonder what this will do to the antivaxx movement.

I also note that this has dealt a new hand to the companies that make disposable items from plastic. I don't see too many fabric shopping bags anymore. I also welcome cheap, disposable, and sanitary straws at restaurants.


----------



## ledbetter

Typical. Teachers will get the short straw and get forced back to a worksite without even any proper ppe. Moreover, municipalities and states will hope for early retirements or furloughs for refusing to work, thus lowering budgets, and hire scabs or “emergency” teachers fresh out of college with no training, but who are hungry for a job, have no idea what they are doing despite their youthful enthusiasm, and who typically leave within three years. And with any luck, the teacher’s unions will be severely weakened making only the precious first responders of fire and police the last bastion of union labor which has enough irony for another post.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Makes you almost giggle at those in California that banned disposable straws but not banning disposable masks I would bet.


----------



## ledbetter

If you want to add some fiction to your non, Camus’ “The Plague” is remarkable in showing how humans behave in lockdowns, times of scarcity, etc. A fascinating read which proves that fiction is news that stays news.


----------



## turbodog

ledbetter said:


> If you want to add some fiction to your non, Camus’ “The Plague” is remarkable in showing how humans behave in lockdowns, times of scarcity, etc. A fascinating read which proves that fiction is news that stays news.



Will check into it. My 'to read' list is about 25 books deep right now. I have banned myself for new books till I get caught up!


----------



## turbodog

ledbetter said:


> Typical. Teachers will get the short straw and get forced back to a worksite without even any proper ppe. Moreover, municipalities and states will hope for early retirements or furloughs for refusing to work, thus lowering budgets, and hire scabs or “emergency” teachers fresh out of college with no training, but who are hungry for a job, have no idea what they are doing despite their youthful enthusiasm, and who typically leave within three years. And with any luck, the teacher’s unions will be severely weakened making only the precious first responders of fire and police the last bastion of union labor which has enough irony for another post.




We are _all_ on the short straw. I'm still working, in IT. Clients are never masking up and are standing right _over_ me when I sit at their desk. I can feel some of their breath blowing what little hair I have left back and forth.

I can't chastise them, or they will get butthurt and find a new IT firm. I sit where people live, at their desk. I'm touching keyboard, mouse, desk, chair arms, etc.


----------



## Poppy

turbodog said:


> We are _all_ on the short straw. I'm still working, in IT. Clients are never masking up and are standing right _over_ me when I sit at their desk. I can feel some of their breath blowing what little hair I have left back and forth.
> 
> I can't chastise them, or they will get butthurt and find a new IT firm. I sit where people live, at their desk. I'm touching keyboard, mouse, desk, chair arms, etc.


turbodog,
If you are in IT, you *might* be considered a nerd. It wouldn't be too unreasonable to expect that a nerd might be germophobic. If you explain that you are a germophobe, they might back off a little, and give you a little more space, without getting butthurt. (This way the problem is with you, not them.)

Just a thought.


----------



## Poppy

Regarding teachers and going back to school.
I think I agree with all that was said.

I think the most frequent plan mentioned is a hybrid plan, where the kids are physically in school half days, or 2 or 3 days a week, and have virtual classes the other 2-3 days a week.

How do the administrators expect teachers, to teach in person 5 days a week, AND do virtual classes 5 days a week?

While I am NOT in favor of a State Mandated curriculum, I'd suggest that the state, or Feds create a 180 day online curriculum/video presentation, and that the local teachers then do zoom classes or whatever, to answer questions about the presentation. Certainly, there are kids who will get lost, because if for no other reason, they can't sit still for a few hours a day watching videos.

There will a tremendous need for tutors, and in wealthy communities, more Kumon type schools.
The states should set up rapid deployment of auxiliary teaching facilities. 
Oh boy... this is going to cost some money!

But... IMO (and what do I know?) a few weeks after the kids go back to school, we'll see an explosion of covid.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

I just heard on local news that someone said (research?) that children don't spread the virus. As with a lot of this so called news you can take it with a grain of salt.


----------



## Monocrom

raggie33 said:


> in winter i use my sleeve for a decade or so.



There actually is a no-touch product that is taking off lately. Might want to grab you one of these....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1DmkTCaXtE

*BTW, have seen other variations of that tool. Would avoid the extremely flimsy plastic ones. *


----------



## Monocrom

ledbetter said:


> If you want to add some fiction to your non, Camus’ “The Plague” is remarkable in showing how humans behave in lockdowns, times of scarcity, etc. A fascinating read which proves that fiction is news that stays news.



No offense, seeing how people behave *now*. With _requests_ from political leaders for self-imposed lockdowns (except for going to supermarkets to buy food, and a couple of other absolutely necessary places). And scarcity varying from whole supermarkets getting ransacked to just a couple of non-essential food stuffs being hard to find, I'm guessing that's going to be a horrendously depressing read. 

Don't think I'll ever forget watching two grown Italian men trying to beat each other into a bloody pulp over the very last can of beans left in an Italian supermarket, back a couple of months ago on the news.


----------



## ledbetter

Monocrom said:


> No offense, seeing how people behave *now*. With _requests_ from political leaders for self-imposed lockdowns (except for going to supermarkets to buy food, and a couple of other absolutely necessary places). And scarcity varying from whole supermarkets getting ransacked to just a couple of non-essential food stuffs being hard to find, I'm guessing that's going to be a horrendously depressing read.
> 
> Don't think I'll ever forget watching two grown Italian men trying to beat other into a bloody pulp over the very last can of beans left in an Italian supermarket, back a couple of months ago on the news.


Camus is never depressing in my opinion. His empathy towards the human condition is unflinching during fascism or a plague.


----------



## turbodog

Poppy said:


> turbodog,
> If you are in IT, you *might* be considered a nerd. It wouldn't be too unreasonable to expect that a nerd might be germophobic. If you explain that you are a germophobe, they might back off a little, and give you a little more space, without getting butthurt. (This way the problem is with you, not them.)
> 
> Just a thought.



Too late for that. They have known me for too long. Probably moot... in a given day I interact with maybe 75 people.


----------



## raggie33

i saw 3 reuable mask for 5 bucks at walmart this am. if ya need them this sounds like a great deal on pay day im geting some for sure


----------



## Poppy

turbodog said:


> Too late for that. They have known me for too long. Probably moot... in a given day I interact with maybe 75 people.



AH... then you need a hat.
"If you can read this you are too damn close!"

Let's hope that their social bubble is practicing safe covid.


----------



## PhotonWrangler

turbodog said:


> We are _all_ on the short straw. I'm still working, in IT. Clients are never masking up and are standing right _over_ me when I sit at their desk. I can feel some of their breath blowing what little hair I have left back and forth.
> 
> I can't chastise them, or they will get butthurt and find a new IT firm. I sit where people live, at their desk. I'm touching keyboard, mouse, desk, chair arms, etc.




I feel your pain. Maybe you can carry a spare disposable mask and offer it to them for "their protection." If they take you up on the offer, it will not only protect you and them, it will allow them to save face as well as set a positive example for their co-workers.


----------



## turbodog

PhotonWrangler said:


> I feel your pain. Maybe you can carry a spare disposable mask and offer it to them for "their protection." If they take you up on the offer, it will not only protect you and them, it will allow them to save face as well as set a positive example for their co-workers.



That's an idea, but I'm not holding my breath. It's already legally mandated and still no mask. A LOT of these folks think it's overblown, conspiracy, not going to happen to them, just a flu, etc.

This is a really good example of what I'm dealing with. This guy was a former gubernatorial (big word of the day!) candidate. His post is currently trending on FB and was featured on the front page of the largest newspaper in the state. There's a poll on tv's website... 2/3 of respondents agree with him.

https://www.facebook.com/foster4ms/posts/1784587818345784?__tn__=K-R


----------



## Greta

turbodog said:


> That's an idea, but I'm not holding my breath. It's already legally mandated and still no mask. A LOT of these folks think it's overblown, conspiracy, not going to happen to them, just a flu, etc.
> 
> This is a really good example of what I'm dealing with. This guy was a former gubernatorial (big word of the day!) candidate. His post is currently trending on FB and was featured on the front page of the largest newspaper in the state. There's a poll on tv's website... 2/3 of respondents agree with him.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/foster4ms/posts/1784587818345784?__tn__=K-R



Not going to remove this. _BUT_... let's not go any further into politics, ok? Thanks in advance


----------



## turbodog

Sorry. Not meant as political comment. Was meant to show... local sentiment... maybe. Maybe other states are just as bad. I sort of figure MS is always at the bottom of the list and some people from other states don't get just how things are in the deep south. This guy could have been our governor...


----------



## Poppy

turbodog said:


> Sorry. Not meant as political comment. Was meant to show... local sentiment... <snip>


I believe, most people live just within their means. I can appreciate the frustrations of a business owner, who was forced to close, and then when permitted to re-open, was restricted to a small percentage of his previous capacity. A month after being closed, the owner might have had to go into savings to pay for his monthly expenses. 

Unless he was particularly successful and has multiple lines of income.


----------



## Greta

turbodog said:


> Sorry. Not meant as political comment. Was meant to show... local sentiment... maybe. Maybe other states are just as bad. I sort of figure MS is always at the bottom of the list and some people from other states don't get just how things are in the deep south. This guy could have been our governor...



Totally understood it that way. That's why I didn't remove it. Just want to make sure others do too... and don't go off sideways with it.


----------



## PhotonWrangler

In just the fast few days I've seen posts from two different thirtysomethings who said "Hell no, I'm not wearing a mask, it's a hoax, my freedom, etc)... and now they're both dead from Covid. These are preventable tragedies.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

PhotonWrangler said:


> In just the fast few days I've seen posts from two different thirtysomethings who said "Hell no, I'm not wearing a mask, it's a hoax, my freedom, etc)... and now they're both dead from Covid. These are preventable tragedies.



I saw a post somewhere else about 3 teachers wearing gloves and masks that all got infected too.


----------



## Poppy

PhotonWrangler said:


> In just the fast few days I've seen posts from two different thirtysomethings who said "Hell no, I'm not wearing a mask, it's a hoax, my freedom, etc)... and now they're both dead from Covid. These are preventable tragedies.


Yeah, the problem is not so much that they were not wearing a mask, but that mind set has a tendency to socialize with those of the same mindset.

Reports from experts state that" this is more contagious than we first thought."

Wait until the schools open... this is going to be a real SH## show. IMO each classroom should be negative air pressure ventilated, as a start. I doubt that is going to happen in the next 45 days.


----------



## Poppy

Lynx_Arc said:


> I saw a post somewhere else about 3 teachers wearing gloves and masks that all got infected too.


It's airborne, so they also need to wear goggles.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Poppy said:


> It's airborne, so they also need to wear goggles.



tell the health professionals that... nobody is recommending goggles that I've heard in the media. I wear reading glasses when I shop but no mask but I distance and have a very strong immune system


----------



## SCEMan

PhotonWrangler said:


> In just the fast few days I've seen posts from two different thirtysomethings who said "Hell no, I'm not wearing a mask, it's a hoax, my freedom, etc)... and now they're both dead from Covid. These are preventable tragedies.



That's the demographic that's driving the surge all across my state. I can understand the frustration but you're not just hurting yourself...


----------



## Poppy

Lynx_Arc said:


> tell the health professionals that... nobody is recommending goggles that I've heard in the media. I wear reading glasses when I shop but no mask but I distance and have a very strong immune system


A lot of them are wearing face-shields.

Many may also believe that they have a super immune system from being exposed to all sorts of stuff for years.

I think in part they have been under-reporting it being airborne, they still need PPE's for themselves.

EDIT: Actually come to think of it, Dr Campbell was commenting on a couple who sent a photo in of them wearing face masks. He not only approved of the fact that they were wearing a face mask, but that they were also wearing glasses!


----------



## Monocrom

ledbetter said:


> Camus is never depressing in my opinion. His empathy towards the human condition is unflinching during fascism or a plague.



So it's an interpretation of what would occur. 

Might make for a truly fascinating read in that case.


----------



## Monocrom

PhotonWrangler said:


> In just the fast few days I've seen posts from two different thirtysomethings who said "Hell no, I'm not wearing a mask, it's a hoax, my freedom, etc)... and now they're both dead from Covid. These are preventable tragedies.



Exactly! Especially since early on we had a bunch of Spring-breakers who didn't take it seriously. Went on the news stating so.... Then they all got infected. 

And yet, you still have people refusing to be actually open-minded. They made up their minds based on their own prejudices early on before all the information was out there, and now doggedly stick to them. Regardless of the facts. Simply trying to convince others. In any way they can. 

They don't get it, they never will. It's all about layers of protection in areas where infection is a real possibility. Perfect example: When Nuclear missiles are transported across America. Decades earlier, there were some incidents. South Carolina in 1958. North Carolina in 1961. Just two examples. One that accidentally fell to Earth, and was recovered, turned out that the numerous safe-guards put into place; all failed except the very last one. 

That last layer of protection made all the difference in the world. Same thing with this virus. Masks, social distancing, going out only when necessary, proper and frequent hand-washing, using hand-sanitizer, using gloves.... All layers. Ironically, strictly adhered to, a person doesn't become infected. Will never know if they came close, and avoided inflection due to one of those layers. But good luck convincing people with the same mentality as those 30-somethings of that concept of layers.


----------



## turbodog

Poppy said:


> ...
> 
> Many may also believe that they have a super immune system from being exposed to all sorts of stuff for years.
> 
> ...



I think this is an overlooked topic. The immune system being too strong is precisely some of the problem. The lungs get flooded with the consequences of immune response and you drown. Apparently, your immune response is in 2 phases. This bugger bypasses phase 1, then phase 2 goes off the rails. 

Maybe the folks driving the recent surges will get their head on straight when deaths start spiking.


----------



## PhotonWrangler

turbodog said:


> I think this is an overlooked topic. The immune system being too strong is precisely some of the problem. The lungs get flooded with the consequences of immune response and you drown. Apparently, your immune response is in 2 phases. This bugger bypasses phase 1, then phase 2 goes off the rails.
> 
> Maybe the folks driving the recent surges will get their head on straight when deaths start spiking.



This is the cytokine storm I've read about, correct?


----------



## raggie33

i hope in reducing my risk. before i get to store a block away i put on mask and use alchol based cleaner to clean hands i get my grocerys leave store clean hands again then take mask off a block or so away i figure i want to kill anything on hands before i touch mask and face. ps am i the only one who is always on the wrong end ofbthe aisle?


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Poppy said:


> A lot of them are wearing face-shields.
> 
> Many may also believe that they have a super immune system from being exposed to all sorts of stuff for years.
> 
> I think in part they have been under-reporting it being airborne, they still need PPE's for themselves.
> 
> EDIT: Actually come to think of it, Dr Campbell was commenting on a couple who sent a photo in of them wearing face masks. He not only approved of the fact that they were wearing a face mask, but that they were also wearing glasses!


Well nobody I've watched or read about other than a few people posting online have said anything about glasses. In fact our mayor is trying to put in place mandatory masking in place here. If you can get it through the eyes then without glasses the masks are possibly a waste of time as IMO some masks actually push any incoming air into your eyes thus increasing the chance of them being used to be infected. I sort of don't overly understand the gloves bit for the virus as washing your hands is effective enough if you get the virus on the gloves you can touch things just as easy as your hands and I don't think the odds of getting the virus through cuts on your hands is high enough to be concerned with.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

raggie33 said:


> i hope in reducing my risk. before i get to store a block away i put on mask and use alchol based cleaner to clean hands i get my grocerys leave store clean hands again then take mask off a block or so away i figure i want to kill anything on hands before i touch mask and face. ps am i the only one who is always on the wrong end ofbthe aisle?



If you can resist touching your face especially your eyes and mouth and nose areas then you don't really need to sanitize your hands all the time in public just wash them good when you get home after you put your groceries and other things away as it is possible the virus could be on the containers and bags you are carrying although they say it is considerably harder to get it off of surfaces than through the air.


----------



## raggie33

Lynx_Arc said:


> If you can resist touching your face especially your eyes and mouth and nose areas then you don't really need to sanitize your hands all the time in public just wash them good when you get home after you put your groceries and other things away as it is possible the virus could be on the containers and bags you are carrying although they say it is considerably harder to get it off of surfaces than through the air.


my mind tricks me that my face is itchy or im adjusting my glasses.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

turbodog said:


> I think this is an overlooked topic. The immune system being too strong is precisely some of the problem. The lungs get flooded with the consequences of immune response and you drown. Apparently, your immune response is in 2 phases. This bugger bypasses phase 1, then phase 2 goes off the rails.
> 
> Maybe the folks driving the recent surges will get their head on straight when deaths start spiking.


I"m not sure I would say the immune systems of people who get such responses are due to strength but rather inexperience as the response is to attack the wrong thing not attack the virus with overwhelming amount of white blood cells. Typically people with weak immune systems get swollen lymph nodes when they are infected while those with strong ones don't have to pump out a massive amount of white blood cells to fight something off and in the end attacking everything in sight. It is sort of like having a strong man with martial arts mastery taking on the bad guy vs a wimpy accountant who is clueless as to how to fight and screams for a dozen more accountants who then go nuts destroying everything in sight hoping to kill the bad guys while the Bruce Lee white cells go.... BONK and are done with it.


----------



## Poppy

Lynx_Arc said:


> Well nobody I've watched or read about other than a few people posting online have said anything about glasses. In fact our mayor is trying to put in place mandatory masking in place here. If you can get it through the eyes then without glasses the masks are possibly a waste of time as IMO some masks actually push any incoming air into your eyes thus increasing the chance of them being used to be infected. I sort of don't overly understand the gloves bit for the virus as washing your hands is effective enough if you get the virus on the gloves you can touch things just as easy as your hands and I don't think the odds of getting the virus through cuts on your hands is high enough to be concerned with.


What part of "wear a mask to protect others" and "they wear a mask to protect you" don't you understand?

If you want to protect you, follow the instructions in this CDC video.
Put on face shield or goggles is at 3:05

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/using-ppe.html



[FONT=&quot]Updated on June 9, 2020 to add a statement about the importance of the selected respirator and eye protection not interfering with the correct fit or function of the other,[/FONT]


----------



## turbodog

Lynx_Arc said:


> Well nobody I've watched or read about other than a few people posting online have said anything about glasses. In fact our mayor is trying to put in place mandatory masking in place here. If you can get it through the eyes then without glasses the masks are possibly a waste of time as IMO some masks actually push any incoming air into your eyes thus increasing the chance of them being used to be infected. I sort of don't overly understand the gloves bit for the virus as washing your hands is effective enough if you get the virus on the gloves you can touch things just as easy as your hands and I don't think the odds of getting the virus through cuts on your hands is high enough to be concerned with.



I see nobody using gloves properly. You put gloves on, touch contaminated surface, remove gloves (properly), and throw them away. A set of gloves is usually for extremely short use.


----------



## turbodog

PhotonWrangler said:


> This is the cytokine storm I've read about, correct?



Yes.

I did some light reading on it. Immune response is 2 stage. Something about stage 1 not being triggered is causing a 'flood' of stage 2... which chokes up the lung tissue. Been a month or so since I read up on it, but that's the short version.


----------



## turbodog

Lynx_Arc said:


> I"m not sure I would say the immune systems of people who get such responses are due to strength but rather inexperience as the response is to attack the wrong thing not attack the virus with overwhelming amount of white blood cells. Typically people with weak immune systems get swollen lymph nodes when they are infected while those with strong ones don't have to pump out a massive amount of white blood cells to fight something off and in the end attacking everything in sight. It is sort of like having a strong man with martial arts mastery taking on the bad guy vs a wimpy accountant who is clueless as to how to fight and screams for a dozen more accountants who then go nuts destroying everything in sight hoping to kill the bad guys while the Bruce Lee white cells go.... BONK and are done with it.



Sorry, but so far there's no research to go with that, or none that I've seen so far.

Here's a decent article on immune decline as we age:

https://www.buckinstitute.org/blog/covid-19-and-the-aging-immune-system/

Here's a longer article on why the young are not nearly as affected:

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2020/05/covid-19-kids/611728/


----------



## idleprocess

turbodog said:


> I see nobody using gloves properly. You put gloves on, touch contaminated surface, remove gloves (properly), and throw them away. A set of gloves is usually for extremely short use.



Same. Early on people were wearing gloves and doing the exact same things they would without them as if they were some _magical ward_.

The average person does OK with protective gloves when the hazard is A) obvious, and B) limited in scope/geography - i.e. washing dishes, painting, working on a car, handling pool chemicals, etc: _the hazard(s) are apparent and well-defined_. Suspect that folks with a food service background might do better with gloves in public than randoms since they have an understanding of cross-contamination, but the previous points still apply. 

But really, gloves are a silly thing to be wearing in public where the exposure is decidedly non-occupational and just avoiding touching your face in public then washing your hands afterwards with ordinary soap is effective.


----------



## Monocrom

raggie33 said:


> ....ps am i the only one who is always on the wrong end of the aisle?



Sometimes it's best not to move along _*with*_ the crowd.


----------



## Monocrom

idleprocess said:


> But really, gloves are a silly thing to be wearing in public where the exposure is decidedly non-occupational and just avoiding touching your face in public then washing your hands afterwards with ordinary soap is effective.



Used to think the same thing, up until last week. Picked up some raw pork at the supermarket that was supposed to be properly wrapped and sealed. It wasn't. Thankfully had disposable gloves on. Local grocery store won't let you in without both a mask *and* a pair of gloves on. They'll just kick you right out. They don't care who you are. The owner of that place is not screwing around. And quite frankly, I don't blame him!

Usually hit the supermarket without gloves. Relying on hand-sanitizer or hand washing after I get home. Nothing like fingers covered in raw pork juices to make me re-think the usefulness of gloves. Took off the contaminated glove. Threw it away. Put on a new glove. (I carry two pairs with me in case I run into a neighbor outside who might need a pair. I keep them in a Zip-lock baggie.) One thing I NEVER touch when out and about, is my smartphone. Far too easy for cross contamination to occur.


----------



## Greta

*FULL DISCLOSURE AND WARNING: I DID NOT WRITE THIS - I FOUND IT ON FACEBOOK AND HAD A GREAT LAUGH! THERE IS SOME "INAPPROPRIATE" LANGUAGE. OVERALL - JUST ENJOY! 

*I laughed way too hard. Is it delirium? 

OMG, this sums it up for all of us. So many rapid-fire events happening this year that ya just gotta laugh (or cry). SMH ...you can’t make this stuff up!! 






Dear Diary 2020 Edition,

In January, Australia caught on fire. I don’t even know if that fire was put out, because we straight up almost went to war with Iran. We might actually still be almost at war with them. I don’t know, because Jen Aniston and Brad Pitt spoke to one another at an awards show and everyone flipped the f--- out, but then there was thing happening in China, then Prince Harry and Megan peaced out of the Royal family, and there was the whole impeachment trial, and then corona virus showed up in the US “officially,” but then Kobe died and UK peaced out of the European Union.

In February, Iowa crapped itself with the caucus results and the president was acquitted and the Speaker of the House took ten years to rip up a speech, but then WHO decided to give this virus a name COVID-19, which confused some really important people in charge of, like, our lives, into thinking there were 18 other versions before it, but then Harvey Weinstein was found guilty, and Americans started asking if Corona beer was safe to drink, and everyone on Facebook became a doctor who just knew the flu like killed way more people than COVID 1 through 18.

In March, poop hit the fan. Warren dropped out of the presidential race and Sanders was like Bernie or bust, but then Italy shut its whole *** down, and then COVID Not 1 through 18 officially become what everyone already realized, a pandemic and then a nationwide state of emergency was declared in US, but it didn’t really change anything, so everyone was confused or thought it was still just a flu, but then COVID Not 18 was like ya’ll not taking me seriously? I’m gonna infect the one celebrity everyone loves and totally infected Tom Hanks, but then the DOW took a poop on itself, and most of us still don’t understand why the stock market is so important or even a thing (I still don’t), but then we were all introduced to Tiger King. (Carol totally killed her husband), and Netflix was like you’re welcome, and we all realized there was no way we were washing our hands enough in the first place because all of our hands are now dry and gross.

In April, Bernie finally busted himself out of the presidential race, but then NYC became the set of The Walking Dead and we learned that no one has face masks, ventilators, or toilet paper, or THE FREAKING SWIFFER WET JET LIQUID, but then Kim Jong-Un died, but then he came back to life… or did he? Who knows, because then the Pentagon released videos of UFOs and nobody cared, and we were like man, it’s only April….

In May, the biblical end times kicked off historical locust swarms and then we learned of murder hornets and realized that 2020 was the start of the Hunger Games but people forgot to let us know, but then people legit protested lockdown measures with AR-15s, and then sports events were cancelled everywhere. But then people all over America finally reached a breaking point with race issues and violence. There were protests in every city, but then people forgot about the pandemic called COVID Not One Through 18. Media struggled with how to focus on two important things at once, but then people in general struggle to focus on more than one important thing, and a dead whale was found in the middle of the Amazon rain forest after monkeys stole COVID 1 Through 19 from a lab and ran off with them, and either in May or April (no one is keeping track of time now) that a giant asteroid narrowly missed Earth.

In June, science and common sense just got thrown straight out the window and somehow wearing masks became a political thing, but then a whole lot of people realized the south was actually the most unpatriotic thing ever and actually lost the civil war, and there are a large amount of people who feel that statues they don’t even know the name of are needed for … history reasons..... but then everyone sort of remembered there was a pandemic, but then decided that not wearing a mask was somehow a God given right (still haven't found that part in the bible or even in the constitution), but then scientists announced they found a mysterious undiscovered mass at the center of the earth, and everyone was like DON’T YOU DARE TOUCH IT, but then everyone took a pause to realize that people actually believed Gone With The Wind was like non-fiction, but then it was also announced that there is a strange radio signal coming from somewhere in the universe that repeats itself every so many days, and everyone was like DON’T YOU DARE ATTEMPT TO COMMUNICATE WITH IT, but then America reopened from the shut down that actually wasn’t even a shut down, and so far, things have gone spectacularly not that great, but everyone is on Facebook arguing that masks kill because no one knows how breathing works, but then Florida was like hold my beer and let me show you how we’re number one in all things, including new Not Corona Beer Corona Virus. Trump decides now is a good time to ask the Supreme Court to shut down Obama Care because what better time to do so than in the middle of a pandemic, but then we learned there was a massive dust cloud coming straight at us from the Sahara Desert, which is totally normal, but this is 2020, so the ghost mummy thing is most likely in that dust cloud, but then I learned of meth-gators, and I'm like that is so not on my f-ing 2020 Bingo card, but then we learned that the Congo's worst ever Ebola outbreak is over, and we were all like, there was an Ebola outbreak that was the worst ever?

In July…. Aliens? Zeus? Asteroids? Artificial Intelligence becomes self aware?

Thanks to whoever started this for the copy and paste.
I have no idea who wrote this; and damn it, I want to know.
Also, why didn't I know about the whale in the Amazon?

I copied and pasted this so it will show up on my notifications next year to remind me of what happened before July 1, 2020 - Not that I could ever forget.


----------



## Greta

On another note - just saw this in my FB feed also: 

_SAFE SPACE Technology has come to Lake Havasu! _
_For those of you who have been wondering if it's safe to dine in our local restaurants, Tim Shugrue has now installed Vollara's Air & Surface Air Purifiers in all 7 of our restaurants._

_These machines are not filtration systems. Instead they use ActivePure technology (Super Oxidizers) which work 24/7 to kill all air and surface contaminants and pathogens. Too good to be true? Well, it was created 25 years ago by NASA for the space station and tested in FDA-certified labs and found to be effective against RNA and DNA viruses like Coronaviruses, Swine Flu (H1N1), Noro Virus, Avian Bird Flu, Hepatitis A, bacteria, molds, fungus and a host of allergens. Within 15 minutes all trace of these contaminants have been 99.999% removed._

_These machines are currently being used in the Ground Zero Museum, thousands of homes and businesses, Care centers, Athletic Facilities, Doctor/dentist Offices, Vet Clinics, and approved for use in all Canadian Hospitals.

For more info visit https://www.vollara.com



_Anyone have any thoughts on this?


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Here is a product of theirs I think and the company used to be called Ecoquest I think.
https://www.amazon.com/product-reviews/B00021703C
I would guess that they are peddling ozoneators or however you spell that.


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

Greta said:


> On another note - just saw this in my FB feed also:
> 
> _SAFE SPACE Technology has come to Lake Havasu! _
> _For those of you who have been wondering if it's safe to dine in our local restaurants, Tim Shugrue has now installed Vollara's Air & Surface Air Purifiers in all 7 of our restaurants._
> 
> _These machines are not filtration systems. Instead they use ActivePure technology (Super Oxidizers) which work 24/7 to kill all air and surface contaminants and pathogens. Too good to be true? Well, it was created 25 years ago by NASA for the space station and tested in FDA-certified labs and found to be effective against RNA and DNA viruses like Coronaviruses, Swine Flu (H1N1), Noro Virus, Avian Bird Flu, Hepatitis A, bacteria, molds, fungus and a host of allergens. *Within 15 minutes all trace of these contaminants have been 99.999% removed.*_
> _These machines are currently being used in the Ground Zero Museum, thousands of homes and businesses, Care centers, Athletic Facilities, Doctor/dentist Offices, Vet Clinics, and approved for use in all Canadian Hospitals.
> 
> For more info visit https://www.vollara.com
> 
> 
> 
> _Anyone have any thoughts on this?



Just one. :thinking: How long does it take a sneeze or cough to make its way across the room, or across just a few tables? :duck:


----------



## idleprocess

Greta said:


> Anyone have any thoughts on this?



Link doesn't go to a specific product, however that vendor sells an Air & Surface Pro and Air & Surface Pro+ products that look like standalone air ionizers. They may well do what they claim, but something inline with the HVAC system seems like it would be far more effective.


----------



## Poppy

idleprocess said:


> Link doesn't go to a specific product, however that vendor sells an Air & Surface Pro and Air & Surface Pro+ products that look like standalone air ionizers. They may well do what they claim, but something inline with the HVAC system seems like it would be far more effective.


I wouldn't bet my life on it.
They claim:
Covers a range of 500 sq. ft. | (42 m2) to 3000 sq. ft. (279 m2)*

To evaluate it you'd need to know how many cubic feet per period of time.

A quick search returned this from the EPA.
https://www.epa.gov/coronavirus/will-ozone-generator-protect-me-and-my-family-covid-19

[h=1]Will an Ozone Generator protect me and my family from COVID-19?[/h]No, do not use ozone generators in occupied spaces. When used at concentrations that do not exceed public health standards, ozone applied to indoor air does not effectively remove viruses, bacteria, mold, or other biological pollutants. Visit the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's website for best practices to protect yourself and your family.


Return to Frequent Questions about Indoor Air and Coronavirus Disease (COVID-19).


----------



## turbodog

Handy tip... if you are considering an ozone generator, don't.

If you get it concentrated enough to kill bugs it will 1) possibly damage your lung tissue and 2) 'run you out' of the room WAY before then.

I bought a small, light duty commercial unit to try and save my butt after the kids microwaved a single server macaroni WITHOUT the water. The smell soaked into the kitchen cabinet plywood/etc. We literally though we were going to have to throw away: kitchen cabinets, couch, loveseat, recliner, lot of clothes, bedspreads, etc.

It worked and removed ALL smoke odor. Took DAYS of ventilation before you could re-enter the house.


----------



## Hooked on Fenix

Here are some examples of irony this year:
Tanning salons (with virus killing u.v. lights) and bars serving alcohol being shut down to prevent people getting corona virus. Alcohol being repurposed from liquor companies to make hand sanitizer to kill corona virus.
People protesting the police calling the police for help. 
People holding signs saying they want over 100,000 black people to lose their jobs and saying you're racist if you don't agree with them.
Churches, funerals, and weddings being shut down while thousands march in the streets because the government wants people to be able to express their first amendment rights.
Criminals being released while law abididing citizens are confined to their homes. 
People complaining of vandalism for others painting over their message in the street while they tear down historical statues across the country.
Getting a college degree to get a high paying job only to find out that all government jobs will now be hiring based on skills, not degrees.
Corona beer is no longer being made due to the spread of corona virus.
People making more than they would working on unemployment causes high unemployment.


----------



## turbodog

idleprocess said:


> Link doesn't go to a specific product, however that vendor sells an Air & Surface Pro and Air & Surface Pro+ products that look like standalone air ionizers. They may well do what they claim, but something inline with the HVAC system seems like it would be far more effective.



Looked at the difference between ozone generator and ion generator.

Ozone: makes ozone (O3) which oxidizes stuff it contacts (particles AND gases/odors) and permanently combines with it, neutralizing it.

Ion: puts an electrical charge on particles passing through it. particles then are attracted to surfaces and stick to them via static electricity.

Problem with BOTH is that it takes a LONG time to filter the air, when you are mixing the 'clean' air back in with your 'dirty' air.


----------



## PhotonWrangler

There's one thing I don't understand about this product. It contains electrodes for ionizing the air (which produces ozone) and the UVC lamp makes... more ozone? I'm assuming the intention of the UVC lamp is to kill germs. Older UVC lamps made of fused quartz produce a lot of ozone, to the point that they were called "ozone bulbs." Modern UVC germicidal lamps are built using a specially formulated glass envelope to allow the 254nm germicidal wavelength through, but block the shorter wavelengths that produce ozone.

Ozone is good in the upper atmosphere but is a pollutant at ground level and a lung irritant.


----------



## idleprocess

Poppy said:


> I wouldn't bet my life on it.
> They claim:
> Covers a range of 500 sq. ft. | (42 m2) to 3000 sq. ft. (279 m2)*
> 
> To evaluate it you'd need to know how many cubic feet per period of time.
> 
> A quick search returned this from the EPA.
> https://www.epa.gov/coronavirus/will-ozone-generator-protect-me-and-my-family-covid-19
> 
> [h=1]Will an Ozone Generator protect me and my family from COVID-19?[/h]No, do not use ozone generators in occupied spaces. When used at concentrations that do not exceed public health standards, ozone applied to indoor air does not effectively remove viruses, bacteria, mold, or other biological pollutants. Visit the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's website for best practices to protect yourself and your family.
> 
> 
> Return to Frequent Questions about Indoor Air and Coronavirus Disease (COVID-19).





turbodog said:


> Looked at the difference between ozone generator and ion generator.
> 
> Ozone: makes ozone (O3) which oxidizes stuff it contacts (particles AND gases/odors) and permanently combines with it, neutralizing it.
> 
> Ion: puts an electrical charge on particles passing through it. particles then are attracted to surfaces and stick to them via static electricity.
> 
> Problem with BOTH is that it takes a LONG time to filter the air, when you are mixing the 'clean' air back in with your 'dirty' air.





PhotonWrangler said:


> There's one thing I don't understand about this product. It contains electrodes for ionizing the air (which produces ozone) and the UVC lamp makes... more ozone? I'm assuming the intention of the UVC lamp is to kill germs. Older UVC lamps made of fused quartz produce a lot of ozone, to the point that they were called "ozone bulbs." Modern UVC germicidal lamps are built using a specially formulated glass envelope to allow the 254nm germicidal wavelength through, but block the shorter wavelengths that produce ozone.
> 
> Ozone is good in the upper atmosphere but is a pollutant at ground level and a lung irritant.



My main thought was that a _tabletop_ unit strikes me as being a poor substitute for something that filters / treats / sterilizes _*the entirety*_ of recirculating HVAC throughput which is known to be a vector for the COVID-19 virus.


----------



## raggie33

are local news caster name is corona . talking about being conffused


----------



## Monocrom

raggie33 said:


> Our local news caster name is Corona. Talking about being confused.



It was a fairly popular name once. Doubt anyone will be naming their newborn daughters "Corona" for quite a long time.

In other news, for one-stop shopping; Home Depot has Paper towels, hand-sanitizer (and at better prices than any place else), anti-bacterial wipes, alcohol-based sprays for disinfecting surfaces that way too, and masks (mainly the gaiter variety). Masks are decent. You can get better ones on Etsy. Ironically you can get worst ones on there too. At least H.D. is open and for many, a short drive away. 

For anyone thinking I'm giving H.D. free publicity. Nope! Still a scumbag company with plenty of disgusting official political stances. But when you need basic items during a deadly planetary (I'm not calling it "global," that's just idiotic) pandemic, you get what you need from those who have it.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Poppy and PhotonWrangler,

They claim that their unit doesn't produce ozone.

Their unit produces H2O2, O2-, and OH- as ions. It looks like the UVC is used to purify the moisture in the air prior to it being ionized.

If your room has an air change every 5 minutes, this unit probably won't help much. If you shut up the room and don't change the air often, this unit seems to have some possibilities.

A consideration... If it is working on the space station, is it possible that it could also work on earth?

Tom


----------



## PhotonWrangler

Thank you for clarifying that, Tom. This makes much more sense.

I'm a little unclear on how long the air has to be exposed to the UVC lamp to have a good germicidal effect, however I'm guess it's longer than the second or two that it takes to whiiz past the lamp, so it would probably need to get recirculated pretty often. I'm guessing the HVAC indiustry has some cfm-vs-UVC energy density calculations for this.


----------



## turbodog

SilverFox said:


> Hello Poppy and PhotonWrangler,
> 
> They claim that their unit doesn't produce ozone.
> 
> Their unit produces H2O2, O2-, and OH- as ions. It looks like the UVC is used to purify the moisture in the air prior to it being ionized.
> 
> If your room has an air change every 5 minutes, this unit probably won't help much. If you shut up the room and don't change the air often, this unit seems to have some possibilities.
> 
> A consideration... If it is working on the space station, is it possible that it could also work on earth?
> 
> Tom



Vaporized H2O2 strikes me as tough to pull off and dangerous due to reactivity of the chemical. Like ozone, if you get the concentration high enough to be effective it's a problem. Much more than ozone, it's not just an irritant but an immediate threat to life.

The whole thing strikes me as very questionable in effectiveness and the reality of pulling if off successfully.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporized_hydrogen_peroxide

O2- ions in vapor form are legit. Very wordy alert for the article below.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4882552/


My guess is that they are mainly generating O2- with trace amounts of H2O2 and OH-. So basically a non-ozone ozone type machine. If they made more than trace amount of H2O2... bad juju. Allowable limits for that are 1ppm.

Still suffers from low CFM and filtering inefficiency.


----------



## Poppy

Hi Tom, 

I run my HVAC pretty much 24/7 with a HEPA filter in it and change the filter out every 3 weeks. That change out is probably more often than necessary, but I am happy to see that it captured so much dust and dirt.

For years, we had a couple portable tower electro-static filters in the house. They collected so little that we only cleaned them once or twice a year, until I threw them out.

We use "Space Station Technology" to clean our air, may be similar to marketing for those $79 Navy Seal Zoom Flashlights.


----------



## Monocrom

And now for something completely different (but still on topic)....

*How do you enforce social distancing at the pub?*
*Install an electric fence around it!*

_"Get back, ye drunken heathens!" _

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-cornwall-53389977


----------



## Poppy

Travelers from each of the following states must quarantine for fourteen days, and complete a form stating where they will quarantine upon entry to the state of New York, with contact information. The airlines will assist in disseminating the forms in-flight. Travelers who leave the airport without completing the form will be subject to a $2,000 fine and may be brought to a hearing and ordered to complete mandatory quarantine. Airlines have all pledged to help make passengers aware of the new requirement using pre-flight emails, pre-flight announcements, in-flight announcements and other methods. Additionally, travelers coming to New York from designated states through other means of transport, including trains and cars, must fill out the DOHtraveler form online. 



Alabama
Arkansas
Arizona
California
Florida
Georgia
Iowa
Idaho
Kansas
Louisiana
Minnesota
Mississippi
North Carolina
New Mexico
Nevada
Ohio
Oklahoma
South Carolina
Tennessee
Texas
Utah
Wisconsin


I know that NJ also has a list, probably the same as NY's. EDIT: I just checked, NJ has the same list of 22 states. [end edit]

NY, NJ, and Connecticut, have been working together as a team.
The concern is that infections will now come from other states.


----------



## raggie33

my freinds are still fighting this trust me cpfers you dont want this mess. but im hopeing they pass this i love them both. it has to suck to be so sick and to know ya spouse is just as sick


----------



## scout24

Poppy, the phrase they're looking for is "voluntary compliance..." Nobody is quarantining, there are more NY and NJ plates in my little town on any given weekday than locals, and the weekends are worse yet. Masks and social distancing are not enforced, and nowhere near as prevalent as they should be. I hate leaving my house anymore.

Raggie- are your friends hospitalized? Are they together if they are?


----------



## raggie33

scout24 said:


> Poppy, the phrase they're looking for is "voluntary compliance..." Nobody is quarantining, there are more NY and NJ plates in my little town on any given weekday than locals, and the weekends are worse yet. Masks and social distancing are not enforced, and nowhere near as prevalent as they should be. I hate leaving my house anymore.
> 
> Raggie- are your friends hospitalized? Are they together if they are?


there both like me. we are not sure if dieing is worse then going to hospital


----------



## Poppy

scout24 said:


> Poppy, the phrase they're looking for is "voluntary compliance..." Nobody is quarantining, there are more NY and NJ plates in my little town on any given weekday than locals, and the weekends are worse yet. *Masks and social distancing are not enforced*, and nowhere near as prevalent as they should be. I hate leaving my house anymore.
> 
> Raggie- are your friends hospitalized? Are they together if they are?


*Masks and social distancing are not enforced

*Enforcement is incumbent upon the local police. Certainly, not a pleasant position to be put in, but it is what it is.

When drinking was legal at 18 years old, but not until 21 years old in NJ, we went to clubs in NY. There was a little town Tuxedo, NY that had a reputation for ticketing NJ tags if they went over the 25 MPH speed limit. The word got out, and when the speed limit dropped from 50 mph to 25mph, drivers, hit the brakes, HARD, because there would often be an officer within 50 feet of the new limit sign. 

Not everyone in NY, or NJ are under quarantine.

However, I fully agree with you. It is for the most part a voluntary quarantine.
I don't know if there are significant fines imposed upon those caught breaking the quarantine. I've not seen any mention of that.

It's been said that the government only has as much control as the populace allows them to have.

I believe that the Governors know that and tip-toe through this.


----------



## Empath

I've been here for many years, and feel like I can view you all as friends. So, if I may, let me address you as friend.

Friends,

You'll notice at many times those posting in this thread have attached the admonition to *"stay safe"* . Well, that admonition does not apply only to the covid-19 concerns. Please don't let the pandemic concerns distract you from your other concerns.

https://www.emergencyemail.org/newsemergency/anmviewer.asp?a=22513&z=58

Stay safe.


----------



## turbodog

Yes, agreed.

This thing is happening in waves.

Infection, ~2 weeks later confirmed sick, later on... maybe hospitalized, later on... recover or die

Eventually we will have wave(s) of related deaths due to lack of medical care.

It's both fascinating and terrible to live through this event.

Makes me mad/disappointed/frustrated that the people who carelessly spread this thing will choke out healthcare availability for everyone else. I think 'tragedy of the commons' applies...


----------



## RetroTechie

turbodog said:


> This is a really good example of what I'm dealing with. This guy was a former gubernatorial (big word of the day!) candidate. His post is currently trending on FB and was featured on the front page of the largest newspaper in the state. There's a poll on tv's website... 2/3 of respondents agree with him.


Just read that FB post, and must say I can't find any (major) flaws in his logic. That is: not someone spreading fake news, twisting facts, calling things a hoax, or a dumb idiot. Just that a lot of restrictions are based on "better safe than sorry", just plain arbitrary, ignore side-effects that _also_ do a lot of damage, or that _he_ perceives (some) restrictions as a form of government repression that government in a -supposedly- free country shouldn't be doing. For these reasons I'm one of those 2/3 that tend to agree with him. When even experts are largely feeling around in the dark, then translating their findings into policy and decide what restrictions to put in place, what is "not enough", "just right", or "too much", what numbers to pick, is essentially a matter of opinion. And if so, then an informed public can decide for themselves.

If you go to a supermarket without a mask on, you're not putting other people's health at risk. You _may_ be increasing risk to those people who have _chosen_ to go to that supermarket as well (vs. order online), who may have _chosen_ not to wear a mask themselves (vs. wear one even if other people don't), and often still enter that supermarket (at a time of _their_ choosing) even _after_ they see you in there wearing no mask (vs. leave when they arrive at supermarket & think it's too crowded). Nobody needs to eat in a restaurant - if one thinks that's too risky, simply don't eat out. Cook at home, or order takeaway.

That's a lot of opportunities to 'opt out' or otherwise reduce risk, for those that wish to reduce risk to themselves, their loved ones, or the general public. Very different from eg. a drunk driver who risks random strangers' lifes in a way that leaves them without any say in the matter.



Monocrom said:


> They don't get it, they never will. It's all about layers of protection in areas where infection is a real possibility. (..) Same thing with this virus. Masks, social distancing, going out only when necessary, proper and frequent hand-washing, using hand-sanitizer, using gloves.... All layers. Ironically, strictly adhered to, a person doesn't become infected. Will never know if they came close, and avoided inflection due to one of those layers. But good luck convincing people with the same mentality as those 30-somethings of that concept of layers.


Yes some people don't get it. But many people get it just fine. Yes all those layers contribute to the same thing - reduce the spread of a virus. But life = taking risks. Sometimes this includes risk(s) that affect others beside yourself. Meaning there IS no such thing as a 0 risk life. Nor should there be - some risks are exactly the things that make life worth living. That there exists some risk X to group Y, does not _automatically_ mean it's okay to impose arbitrary restriction(s) on group Z. Risks should be weighed, restrictions imposed only when clearly, absolutely necessary, and lifted / adjusted as soon as new information changes our understanding of those risks. When facts aren't clear cut but fuzzy, and the public has every chance to inform themselves, then your opinion on what restriction(s) are appropriate, is as good as mine.

I think very few people had a problem with quickly going into a lockdown when the virus first hit & most aspects of it where unknown. Some big obstruction crosses your path, you hit the brakes. The frequent anti-government-restrictions protests we're seeing lately, imho means that countries' governments are struggling (or failing) that part of "lift / adjust restrictions as new understanding of the situation allows". Don't play that "better safe than sorry" tune... Something big crossed our path, and we hit the brakes. But now time has passed, and we have examined the thing. There is no 0 risk & never will be. Instead SHOW why even now, restriction X is *absolutely necessary*, why you picked number Y as maximum # of people that can meet in one building, etc. Can't do that? Then lift that restriction or adjust that number.

As an example: on a press conference, a journalist asked our prime minister how our government arrived at that "1.5m apart" number. And why even outdoors. Prime minister responded with something like "evidence shows it's absolutely clear we need to keep distancing between people, therefore it's essential we stick to that 1.5m rule". NO POINTERS WHATSOEVER as to which evidence would have one conclude it must be 1.5m. And not 2m. Or 83 cm.

It's exactly that kind of thing that makes people lose trust in their government. And thus proceed to ignore it. Yes there is plenty of research out there. And yes obviously two people 1 km. apart are less likely to infect each other than same people 30 cm apart. But why 1.5m? So again: SHOW HOW you arrived at that number. And why it should be the same for indoors & outdoors. While still allowing 4 people to travel in the same car.


----------



## turbodog

RetroTechie said:


> ...



I don't want to sound dismissive... but if you are in the Netherlands there's world of difference between your country and the US. You all work together much better than US citizens.

The pandemic asked scientists to do something they don't normally do... move quickly. Yes, mistakes were made. Some bad tests made it onto the market which gave bad results. This is a new virus. Tests did not exist for it. There's all sort of logistical problems around that.

Feedback from changing restrictions is not immediate. You have approximately a 2 week lag between new behavior and positive tests starting (or not) to appear. That makes it tricky to adjust public policy in a fine-grained manner.

If you don't mask up at the grocery store you ARE putting other people at risk unless they are wearing a full body PPE, sealed face shield, and n100 respirator. There are enough unmasked shopping that you literally can't go when all as masked. In addition, curbside is swamped and rarely an option (in the city) and practically never an option in the country.

We are not in phase 2 of this thing... we are not done with phase 1 yet. Keep your head down.


----------



## scout24

Poppy said:


> *Masks and social distancing are not enforced
> 
> *Enforcement is incumbent upon the local police. Certainly, not a pleasant position to be put in, but it is what it is.
> 
> When drinking was legal at 18 years old, but not until 21 years old in NJ, we went to clubs in NY. There was a little town Tuxedo, NY that had a reputation for ticketing NJ tags if they went over the 25 MPH speed limit. The word got out, and when the speed limit dropped from 50 mph to 25mph, drivers, hit the brakes, HARD, because there would often be an officer within 50 feet of the new limit sign.
> 
> Not everyone in NY, or NJ are under quarantine.
> 
> However, I fully agree with you. It is for the most part a voluntary quarantine.
> I don't know if there are significant fines imposed upon those caught breaking the quarantine. I've not seen any mention of that.
> 
> It's been said that the government only has as much control as the populace allows them to have.
> 
> I believe that the Governors know that and tip-toe through this.



Hence "voluntary compliance." Seatbelts are the law here, but one can't be stopped just for that. Texting and driving, same thing. Things to protect you, things to protect others. I hate wearing a mask, but I love my Wife more than I hate the mask, and I know if I bring the virus home that with her asthma, it wouldn't be pretty. Serious question: Does anyone have U.S. "regular flu" mortality numbers for this year?


----------



## bigburly912

April 4th was the last week of full reporting so not yet unless the newest report had just come out. Even on the CDC it seems they are waiting for numbers to come in


----------



## turbodog

No. But I wonder what this will do to flu transmission numbers, long term.


----------



## Monocrom

scout24 said:


> Poppy, the phrase they're looking for is "voluntary compliance..." Nobody is quarantining, there are more NY and NJ plates in my little town on any given weekday than locals, and the weekends are worse yet. Masks and social distancing are not enforced, and nowhere near as prevalent as they should be. I hate leaving my house anymore.
> 
> Raggie- are your friends hospitalized? Are they together if they are?




Early on in NYC, back when the virus first hit here, NYPD was enforcing mandatory new mask rules. They stopped doing that after a few weeks. Turns out that about 10 Latinos were arrested and later fined. 1 White male was as well. 34 Black men were too. Local news media started shouting "Racism!"

However, only one of the local sources actually bothered asking those arrested; why they didn't mask-up. A few played the macho card and said it was all a hoax. But ironically, most said that a Black man walking around the streets of NYC with a mask covering his face, was a good way to get shot by the NYPD. Many expressed surprise at getting arrested for not wearing a mask. 

After the shouts of racism started up, NYPD stopped enforcing new mask rules. And they've never enforced social distancing. A Black co-worker expressed similar concerns. Simple solution.... wear medical grade surgical masks. He was very fearful of wearing _any_ mask that hid his face while out in public. _For him,_ that type of mask was the best solution. You see a man of any race or ethnicity wearing a medical grade surgical mask over their face, you don't assume he's an armed robber. No one does.


----------



## Monocrom

Empath said:


> I've been here for many years, and feel like I can view you all as friends. So, if I may, let me address you as friend.
> 
> Friends,
> 
> You'll notice at many times those posting in this thread have attached the admonition to *"stay safe"* . Well, that admonition does not apply only to the covid-19 concerns. Please don't let the pandemic concerns distract you from your other concerns.
> 
> https://www.emergencyemail.org/newsemergency/anmviewer.asp?a=22513&z=58
> 
> Stay safe.




Thank you, Empath.
That needed to be said.
I've put off doctors visits myself since March.
Thankfully nothing that absolutely couldn't be put off for that long. 
It is very unfortunate to see individuals putting off serious visits due to Covid-19.


----------



## raggie33

Empath said:


> I've been here for many years, and feel like I can view you all as friends. So, if I may, let me address you as friend.
> 
> Friends,
> 
> You'll notice at many times those posting in this thread have attached the admonition to *"stay safe"* . Well, that admonition does not apply only to the covid-19 concerns. Please don't let the pandemic concerns distract you from your other concerns.
> 
> https://www.emergencyemail.org/newsemergency/anmviewer.asp?a=22513&z=58
> 
> Stay safe.


we love you freind


----------



## Monocrom

RetroTechie said:


> Yes some people don't get it. But many people get it just fine. Yes all those layers contribute to the same thing - reduce the spread of a virus. But life = taking risks. Sometimes this includes risk(s) that affect others beside yourself. Meaning there IS no such thing as a 0 risk life. Nor should there be....



Well, I do agree with you on that last part. Here's the thing.... an event such as this planetary pandemic doesn't bring out the Best in some, or the Worst in others. It brings out the _Real_ in everybody. That hidden part deep down inside that shows what each and every person is really like. For some of us, we keep that part right on the surface on a daily basis. Both online, and off. Truth is, I never said masks will protect someone 100% and bring the risk down to absolute zero. I have said that wearing a mask, along with other practices, in heavily infected areas can slow the spread of the virus. And if you slow the spread, you don't need to be a genius to figure out that THAT means the virus will burn itself out faster, over time. Allowing everyone to return to normalcy, much more quickly. 

Taking risks is perfectly fine. But you should have a mercenary's mentality when doing so. Does the reward make the risks about to be taken, worth it? If the answer is "No." Then you don't take the job. You don't take the risks. I'm sorry, but yes; it is that simple. You weigh the rewards vs. the risks and make your decision based on which outweighs the other. 

My friends and I used to hang out at a rough part of town when we were younger. Inside a certain establishment that made square, tiny burgers. Oh, the things that went on there. Among the staff, the patrons.... What can you say about a place where (other than you and your friends) literally the most respectable individuals in there are a large "Boss" and his hard-"working girls." They'd come in quietly, order their food, sit and eat. Not bother anyone. I wish some of the other patrons were half as decent as they are. After a few months of frequenting the place, it dawned on me that this is stupid! Plenty of risk involved, crappy rewards. So that was the end of going there.

I'm not putting myself at risk for nothing. Quite frankly, if your risks are going to directly and negatively effect other people; hey here's a thought. Maybe think of them first, and don't do it. Someone wants to put their own life in danger, and they're an adult? Cool, you do you. Problem is, with this pandemic, it's not just YOU in danger. 

Remember those Spring-breakers early on when the virus hit America? All of them being interviewed. Treating the virus like a joke. They got infected because they didn't care. Took risks to get a reward of being able to party, get high, get some.... all the usual stupid things Spring-breakers do every year. Since it was early during the infection, some of them slipped through the cracks and made it home before they realized just how bad this thing truly is. Infected their own family members. Parents, siblings, grand-parents.

_"Sorry you died several years earlier than you were supposed to, Grand-ma. But at least Ashley got to have a good time while partying and getting groped by anonymous dudes."_


----------



## raggie33

have a nice day everyone


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Three more places are now "faceless" Walmart and Sam's Club, Krogers, and Best Buy.


----------



## RetroTechie

turbodog said:


> No. But I wonder what this will do to flu transmission numbers, long term.


Short term: it will 'take' those people that otherwise would have been taken by other flu strains, complications from respiratory disease, diabetes, or other COVID-19 risk factor. Long term: it will add itself to the yearly flu shot. If & when a vaccine is developed, and it provides protection for a reasonable amount of time, that is.

Maybe we'll see a 2nd wave coming winter. Maybe some particularly nasty mutation will make for a particularly nasty comeback. Maybe not. But one way or the other, SARS-CoV-2 is here to stay. There's just too many carriers out there to stomp it out completely.


----------



## turbodog

Handy tip. Most diseases tend to become less deadly as time goes on through mutations. Does not mean they don't spread as much, just don't kill as high a percentage of the infected.


----------



## Greta

turbodog said:


> .... Does not mean they don't spread as much, just don't kill as high a percentage of the infected.



From the CDC website: 



> Based on death certificate data, the percentage of deaths attributed to pneumonia, influenza or COVID-19 (PIC) decreased from 6.9% during week 26 to 5.5% during week 27, representing the eleventh consecutive week during which a declining percentage of deaths due to PIC has been recorded. The percentage is currently below the epidemic threshold but will likely change as additional death certificates for deaths during recent weeks are processed.




"Below the epidemic threshold"?


----------



## Monocrom

raggie33 said:


> have a nice day everyone



You too.
Don't worry about offending folks. 
Heck, you're probably the most loved member on all of CPF.


----------



## Kestrel

Monocrom said:


> [...] Heck, you're probably the most loved member on all of CPF.


:thumbsup:


----------



## bigburly912

Nature .com mask study. 


Among the samples collected without a face mask, we found that the majority of participants with influenza virus and coronavirus infection did not shed detectable virus in respiratory droplets or aerosols, whereas for rhinovirus we detected virus in aerosols in 19 of 34 (56%) participants (compared to 4 of 10 (40%) for coronavirus and 8 of 23 (35%) for influenza). For those who did shed virus in respiratory droplets and aerosols, viral load in both tended to be low (Fig. 1). Given the high collection efficiency of the G-II (ref. 19) and given that each exhaled breath collection was conducted for 30 min, this might imply that prolonged close contact would be required for transmission to occur, even if transmission was primarily via aerosols, as has been described for rhinovirus colds20. Our results also indicate that there could be considerable heterogeneity in contagiousness of individuals with coronavirus and influenza virus infections.

The major limitation of our study was the large proportion of participants with undetectable viral shedding in exhaled breath for each of the viruses studied. We could have increased the sampling duration beyond 30 min to increase the viral shedding being captured, at the cost of acceptability in some participants. An alternative approach would be to invite participants to perform forced coughs during exhaled breath collection12. However, it was the aim of our present study to focus on recovering respiratory virus in exhaled breath in a real-life situation and we expected that some individuals during an acute respiratory illness would not cough much or at all. Indeed, we identified virus RNA in a small number of participants who did not cough at all during the 30-min exhaled breath collection, which would suggest droplet and aerosol routes of transmission are possible from individuals with no obvious signs or symptoms. Another limitation is that we did not confirm the infectivity of coronavirus or rhinovirus detected in exhaled breath. While the G-II was designed to preserve viability of viruses in aerosols, and in the present study we were able to identify infectious influenza virus in aerosols, we did not attempt to culture coronavirus or rhinovirus from the corresponding aerosol samples.

Hmmmmm. Interesting read. Didn’t want to link it directly but it’s easily found.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

From what you've posted it is hard to make any conclusion other than some people have the virus and some people shed it and others don't.


----------



## turbodog

Greta said:


> From the CDC website:
> 
> 
> [/LIST]
> "Below the epidemic threshold"?




Numbers are low as it's ramping up in young populations. Eventually it moves further into/back into more vulnerable ones. Also... even less vulnerable populations can flood healthcare eventually. MS's 10 largest hospitals had no ICU capacity 2-3 days ago. Which for our state means pretty much any hospital worth visiting...


----------



## raggie33

Monocrom said:


> You too.
> Don't worry about offending folks.
> Heck, you're probably the most loved member on all of CPF.


id love that to be true. cpf means so much to me


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Well it is official..... I can no longer show my face in public without fear of breaking the law. I never would have thought growing up that hiding your face while entering a bank would be required and that showing your face in public would be illegal. What an upsidedown world we now live in..


----------



## raggie33

am i the only one who watches the news and expects asthon kutcher to jump out and point at us saying that where punked?


----------



## nbp

Lynx_Arc said:


> Well it is official..... I can no longer show my face in public without fear of breaking the law. I never would have thought growing up that hiding your face while entering a bank would be required and that showing your face in public would be illegal. What an upsidedown world we now live in..



Agreed! I told the gal at my bank the other day it was rather odd coming into the bank with my face covered. Never thought I’d see the day!


----------



## 5S8Zh5

Made a Whole Foods run this morning. They lifted the no more than 2 eggs and butter restriction, which was nice.


----------



## Poppy

5S8Zh5 said:


> Made a Whole Foods run this morning. They lifted the no more than 2 eggs and butter restriction, which was nice.


Yes, that is nice. I am sorry to hear that your part of the country is still having food restriction issues.
We're doing pretty well here in NJ.

---------------------------------------

A recent observance of mine.

People who I know, who really like to socialize, have tamed it back a bit.
They are comfortable with their "social circle of friends" but stand way back if they don't know you, or if you are 'safe'
That IMO is a HUGE improvement.

We have a friend. Hugely strong construction guy, one who works all day, and lifts weights 3 times a week. Watches his diet, the whole nine yards. He and his wife got hit with the virus, and could hardly talk. They survived. The effect they had on the group was enlightening. "Holy snot! If it could get HIM! It can get me, and anyone I know!

As a result, having small "social circle of friends" became important.

---------
OTOH, I know of those who have allowed themselves to become a member of a small circle of friends, because living in solitude became unbearable. 

If people maintain small groups of friends, contact tracing will be easier.


----------



## turbodog

I've been training for this for a long time. I've worked alone for the past 22 years.

If if I survived the bluebell shortage of '15 then this is no problem.


----------



## WarriorOfLight

Maybe interesting and a base for the decision wearing a mask or not:
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6928e2.htm?s_cid=mm6928e2_w


----------



## Lynx_Arc

WarriorOfLight said:


> Maybe interesting and a base for the decision wearing a mask or not:
> https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6928e2.htm?s_cid=mm6928e2_w



While this is interesting a few things I didn't notice.
1)How did stylist B get the virus from Stylist A? If she was wearing a mask then that spoils this "revelation"
2)Is is a lot harder to get the virus to people who aren't facing you? If they cough on your back can you get infected?
3)We assume Stylist A gave it to Stylist B, but in actuality BOTH stylists could have got is at the same time from either the same source or different sources and that source could have been a customer wearing a mask prior to this "revelation" that infected both, just one developed systems at a slower pace which lead the conclusions made herein.
4)It is possible that it actually is a lot harder to pass the virus regardless of masks than is being claimed touting masks (again) making you "safe" and that these two people were not really infecting anyone at all even though they were tested positive (false positive perhaps)
5)This is not an independent study as the CDC is not neutral on the mask issues and you probably won't see negative aspects regarding masks here other than N95 of which is not applicable to the crappy masks worn by most.
A study that would help us is someone not wearing a mask in the crowd of customers and someone not wearing a mask that is a stylist and nobody gets infected, but that study would be conveniently lost in the narrative here.


----------



## Monocrom

5S8Zh5 said:


> Made a Whole Foods run this morning. They lifted the no more than 2 eggs and butter restriction, which was nice.



Whole Foods.... There's one about 20 blocks away from me, and I'd be happier if that distance was longer. Many supermarket chains have done an admirable job of protecting their workers and cashiers from the risk of infection. Whole Foods is consistently on the news here in New York City for not doing much of anything for their workers. Among infection rates for supermarket cashiers, one guess which chain has the worst average. Whole Foods does a good job of convincing the public to pay quite a bit more for groceries by presenting itself as caring and very progressive. But actions, or in their case lack of actions in helping to protect their workers, speaks louder than words or marketing.


----------



## ledbetter

Monocrom said:


> Whole Foods.... There's one about 20 blocks away from me, and I'd be happier if that distance was longer. Many supermarket chains have done an admirable job of protecting their workers and cashiers from the risk of infection. Whole Foods is consistently on the news here in New York City for not doing much of anything for their workers. Among infection rates for supermarket cashiers, one guess which chain has the worst average. Whole Foods does a good job of convincing the public to pay quite a bit more for groceries by presenting itself as caring and very progressive. But actions, or in their case lack of actions in helping to protect their workers, speaks louder than words or marketing.


Since being sold to Amazon, it has changed considerably from a customer’s point of view, and I’m sure the employees don’t feel much better than Amazon warehouse workers. All “essential” but treated as expendable. And if you speak out, watch out.


----------



## turbodog

ledbetter said:


> Since being sold to Amazon, it has changed considerably from a customer’s point of view, and I’m sure the employees don’t feel much better than Amazon warehouse workers. All “essential” but treated as expendable. And if you speak out, watch out.



People confuse 'speaking out' with disclosing pictures they should not have. Then the employer has clear grounds to fire them for breaching an employment contract. Or they spam a company-wide mailing list and get canned. The law has very clear protections for workers unless you go looking for trouble.

Now, back your regularly scheduled topic.

I washed my mask with my whites... red mask turned all my socks pink.


----------



## ledbetter

turbodog said:


> People confuse 'speaking out' with disclosing pictures they should not have. Then the employer has clear grounds to fire them for breaching an employment contract. Or they spam a company-wide mailing list and get canned. The law has very clear protections for workers unless you go looking for trouble.
> 
> Now, back your regularly scheduled topic.
> 
> 
> I washed my mask with my whites... red mask turned all my socks pink.


As they said in the 50’s, Better dead than red.I’m sure Robert Foster would agree.


----------



## turbodog

Foster? What am I out of the loop on?


----------



## Monocrom

So, all across the city tomorrow; several public pools are going to open up. In the middle of a deadly planetary pandemic. In the most heavily infected city on the planet. But there's going to be "guidelines" in place. Which we all know everyone is going to ignore. Seriously, I'm starting to wonder if the City and State leaders are truly this moronically incompetent or if they're working _intentionally_ with the virus. 

Though it's not as though there's any type of historical records that point to what can happen when a major city re-opens too early after a deadly planetary pandemic hits. Yup! No historical evidence whatsoever Especially not in San Francisco....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQ6LEc-oVPQ


----------



## thermal guy

My biggest concern is school reopening. There’s just no way your going to keep kids hugging and grabbing each other. No way. My children go to a pretty small school 550 K-12 and there’s still 30-40 kids per class. And the way this spreads by the time one comes down with it the whole school will be infected.Without a vaccine, starting school up again could be catastrophic


----------



## Monocrom

thermal guy said:


> My biggest concern is school reopening. There’s just no way your going to keep kids hugging and grabbing each other. No way. My children go to a pretty small school 550 K-12 and there’s still 30-40 kids per class. And the way this spreads by the time one comes down with it the whole school will be infected.Without a vaccine, starting school up again could be catastrophic




Oh no, it will be. Absolutely. Kids getting infected. Bringing the virus home with them.... Going up to grand-ma, giving her a hug. Hollywood couldn't write a better nightmare fuel script.


----------



## nbp

Other countries are doing school. How are they doing it? We should Do that. Virtual learning might be okay-ish for middle and upper class kids, but for many students it’s basically a joke. American students already rank poorly by many metrics; not sure how many school years they can afford to miss at this point. Gotta get it figured out people.


----------



## PhotonWrangler

I really don't see how we can open schools safely in the fall. Younger kids are likely to spread it wildly like Monocrom said because they have no concept of infection. Older kids are more prone to want to party together. Even if the classrooms themselves are safe in terms of spread out seats, masks, disinfecting, what happens when the bell rings and kids pour into the hallways in close proximity to each other? What about everyone touching the same handrails? And laughing and screaming in the halls, propelling the virus for dozens of feet? It only takes one of these conditions for things to go south.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

PhotonWrangler said:


> I really don't see how we can open schools safely in the fall. Younger kids are likely to spread it wildly like Monocrom said because they have no concept of infection. Older kids are more prone to want to party together. Even if the classrooms themselves are safe in terms of spread out seats, masks, disinfecting, what happens when the bell rings and kids pour into the hallways in close proximity to each other? What about everyone touching the same handrails? And laughing and screaming in the halls, propelling the virus for dozens of feet? It only takes one of these conditions for things to go south.



Actually from what I've read the younger kids are usually not the ones spreading the virus.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/07/200710100934.htm


----------



## bigburly912

There’s not really much of anything anyone can believe about this virus. Hate to say it but everything is speculation and bad data. My wife’s friend and both her daughters have it now. Both daughters are very very young. Their babysitter has it......Kids can spread it. The babysitter/mother were almost never in contact. Babysitter tested positive after the kids. Strange thing is dad doesn’t have it, he was the one delivering children to the babysitter


----------



## Dave D

Schools can't control nits (head lice) never mind a virus!!!


----------



## Monocrom

bigburly912 said:


> There’s not really much of anything anyone can believe about this virus. Hate to say it but everything is speculation and bad data. My wife’s friend and both her daughters have it now. Both daughters are very very young. Their babysitter has it......Kids can spread it. The babysitter/mother were almost never in contact. Babysitter tested positive after the kids. Strange thing is dad doesn’t have it, he was the one delivering children to the babysitter




Will send prayers that they all recover. It's devastating to hear of extremely young children getting infected.


----------



## thermal guy

Dave D said:


> Schools can't control nits (head lice) never mind a virus!!!



That’s exactly correct. Schools will have to go completely online till we get a handle on this.All parents Here were sent a survey and that was one of the possibilities. My recommendation was for that or at the very least 2 days At school and 3 days Online. Another thing I wanted was for students to stay in classroom and have the teachers come to them. Keep them out of the hallways. All this of course is assuming that the students will listen to there teachers and from what I gather and have seen at my school students have ZERO respect and basically run the school.God if I spoke up to a teacher! That crap didn’t happen when I was in school. Hell, we had a shop teacher that used to throw hammers around the room when the class got out of hand. And I’m still alive. But then I used to ride in the back of pickup trucks drink water out of a hose and walk to school with 3 feet of snow on the ground 😁


----------



## Lynx_Arc

bigburly912 said:


> There’s not really much of anything anyone can believe about this virus. Hate to say it but everything is speculation and bad data. My wife’s friend and both her daughters have it now. Both daughters are very very young. Their babysitter has it......Kids can spread it. The babysitter/mother were almost never in contact. Babysitter tested positive after the kids. Strange thing is dad doesn’t have it, he was the one delivering children to the babysitter


With this virus and testing issues who really knows what order the virus infected and passed forward to. According to that study I posted the link to young children are 1/10 or less likely to pass on the infection than older children and adults.


----------



## turbodog

I'm cautioning you all to take this seriously. It's very real. It's suppressing other, non c-19, people from getting healthcare. 

And it's growing exponentially. Don't believe me? Go look at the total US infections. It's growing at just under 2% a day, doubling about once a month in total numbers infected and daily increases.

Yes, there is some number of people infected that did NOT get tested. That's largely irrelevant... a full ICU is a full ICU. PPE is still in short supply. Testing reagents are in a nationwide shortage. Etc.

Concerning the kids passing it on. I don't know, and it does not appear to matter either. We can argue about the 'input' side of the equation all day long. Fact is, the 'output' side, the confirmed infected, is growing exponentially and steadily.


----------



## thermal guy

I’m pretty sure we’re all on board with how dangerous this thing is. And my family comes first. If I don’t feel going back to school is safe there butts are staying home.


----------



## bigburly912

We’re all taking it seriously but it’s hard to not say numbers are skewed when tests are coming back positive on fruit/goat meat/ random objects. 

Also several states have counted the number of positives for every time the same person tested. That’s bad.


----------



## thermal guy

Yes and China’s numbers of deaths are 1/10 Are what they really were/are. When this is all over and those numbers are corrected it’s going to be a shock to the world.


----------



## bigburly912

thermal guy said:


> Yes and China’s numbers of deaths are 1/10 Are what they really were/are. When this is all over and those numbers are corrected it’s going to be a shock to the world.



I have a feeling they will never be corrected.


----------



## thermal guy

Not by them no. But when we saw satellite photos showing HUGE mass graves being dug I’m thinking we put a team on getting to the bottom of it. The truth will come out


----------



## Monocrom

One of the biggest issues why this virus continues to spread is due to our pathetically weak-willed elected leaders who clearly seem to care more about getting re-elected down the road. Instead of making the hard decisions. The unpopular ones to benefit the masses as a whole. Ones that might cause them to not get re-elected. They want all the benefits and the status associated with being Mayor or Governor. But when *real* leadership is needed, they've shown that they clearly don't deserve their status in Life. Add Texas' Governor to that list. 

While statistics and numbers are important. Please always keep in mind that there are real human-beings attached to those numbers.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtJfP_ZqFM8


----------



## raggie33

ive been injecting bleach and wearing 2 mask. nothing to do with covid 19 back when i toured with la guns i made some bad decisions


----------



## raggie33

i was trying to be funny .but i think it just came out gross


----------



## RedLED

raggie33 said:


> ive been injecting bleach and wearing 2 mask. nothing to do with covid 19 back when i toured with la guns i made some bad decisions


Are you a musician?


----------



## raggie33

RedLED said:


> Are you a musician?


 not a good one


----------



## RedLED

What did you do on the tour?


----------



## raggie33

RedLED said:


> What did you do on the tour?



nothing i was jokeing. but i do love la guns but i wish they would go back to original lineup


----------



## RedLED

That's cool, man.


----------



## raggie33

RedLED said:


> That's cool, man.


ive got a strange sence of humor. ps i love ya avatar check out her in the steel panther video


----------



## turbodog

bigburly912 said:


> We’re all taking it seriously but it’s hard to not say numbers are skewed when tests are coming back positive on fruit/goat meat/ random objects.
> 
> Also several states have counted the number of positives for every time the same person tested. That’s bad.



That may have happened accidentally, or in the beginning of the reporting phase, but I have not seen any legit evidence other than a few random reports. I can tell you that MS transmits a patient ID number when they report results to the state health dept. Health dept culls out additional positive reports.

Any test can have false positive/false negative results. If indeed the fruit/goat test was performed (snopes lists this event as unverifiable) who knows what effect weird stuff like that could have on the test. On a humorous note... maybe the goat had covid. Bats, pigs, and humans can get it... why not goats? 

I know the labs I have direct knowledge of are strictly professional. I honestly can't imagine anyone cooking the books, from the bench tech to shift supervisor to lab director. Then it would have to pass through a few managers and the "C" suite as well. This isn't saying there's not human error... but that would only be a fraction of a fraction of total cases if it was.

The original tests had serious accuracy problems are were soon recalled by FDA. That's been a long time back though. And finally, given the serious rise in the numbers lately I expect testing (which is already backlogged) will get even worse soon. I don't know how much excess capacity is in the testing system. Maybe we will get some spit tests soon, self administered.


----------



## bigburly912

???? Have you not heard or read about the Abbott tests, that’s not old news that’s every day news. Places are still using them knowing they are junk because they have nothing else


----------



## turbodog

bigburly912 said:


> ???? Have you not heard or read about the Abbott tests, that’s not old news that’s every day news. Places are still using them knowing they are junk because they have nothing else



The test info I got directly from a cousin who's an MD. There are still several on the market. I'm sure these test mfg are doing the best they can under immense pressure.

I don't really follow the test brands/details too much anymore. Positives are pouring out of the woodwork with commensurate ICU impacts as well... sort of a moot point.

https://www.businessinsider.com/best-coronavirus-antibody-tests-ranked-by-accuracy-2020-7

These guys praise Abbott (and 2 other mfg) as having very good test. I linked the article though to illustrate a different point. If testing is not performed at the right time you get an erroneous reading.

I'm not sure how much longer an antibody test will be useful. As hospitals fill up and patient load increases the only testing that's going to get done will be rapid/point of care in order to verify infection before/during the admitting process.

Concerning rapid tests... if done by the lab staff the results should be accurate (or as accurate as the test allows). When trained, rapid can be done by non-lab staff. But incorrect procedures there will yield bad results. Time will tell how well this works in practice.

EDIT:

Apparently their rapid tests are coming under fire. However, I note the procedural mishaps when performing the test process.

https://health.economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/industry/fda-probes-accuracy-issue-with-abbotts-rapid-virus-test/75751803


----------



## RetroTechie

turbodog said:


> I'm cautioning you all to take this seriously. It's very real. It's suppressing other, non c-19, people from getting healthcare.
> 
> And it's growing exponentially. Don't believe me? Go look at the total US infections. It's growing at just under 2% a day, doubling about once a month in total numbers infected and daily increases.
> 
> Yes, there is some number of people infected that did NOT get tested. That's largely irrelevant... a full ICU is a full ICU. PPE is still in short supply. Testing reagents are in a nationwide shortage. Etc.


I understand less & less about this fixation with "infections" or "cases". :shakehead Cases are confirmed cases only, that is: people who have been tested, and tested positive. Infections are unknown, estimates based on # of cases + a guestimate of how many more infections there are for each confirmed case. :thinking: Or (better) based on sampling a small subset of the population. Usually not random sampling, which makes results less useful for statistical purposes (I've read that for this purpose, they're even testing sewage for virus RNA). Not to mention how many tests are actually done. Or how it's decided who gets tested or not.

Read: both numbers are largely a function of your testing & tracing policies. Combined with poor statistics & a lot of guesswork. NOT a reliable indicator to determine what state the country is in.

Better look at hospitalizations, ICU beds, and deaths. Yes there's a delay between infections & hospitalizations. And a longer delay between infections & deaths. But as you slow down the spread through social distancing, cancelling mass gatherings, face masks etc, looking at a number that lags actual infections 1 or 2 weeks, is not _that_ big a deal. And hospitalizations (or ICU beds) are a much better predictor for deaths in the weeks ahead than "cases" number which varies wildly based on who is tested when or how. "Hospitalizations" takes the unknown # of infections, and unknown % of infected who need hospital care, out of the equation_. _People that are infected, but stay out of hospital, DON'T bog down your medical resources. Hospitalizations do, and that # includes both known _and_ unknown infections regardless where patients came from or where/how they got the virus. Which makes it a lot more useful number to decide how (as a country) you're doing & what to expect in the weeks ahead.

For example in my country, "infections" has been flaring up, and there's talk of fear for a 2nd wave, re-instating some restrictions that were lifted recently, etc. Buuttt... hospitalizations: a few dozen people per week. Deaths: 7 (iirc) last week, similar to the week before. That is _for the whole country_. Compare with the 1st peak (end of March/beginning of April) when there were ~100 deaths (and new hospitalizations a multiple of that) _per day_.

These low numbers we're currently seeing here is despite several restrictions lifted, people not doing that social distancing thing too well anymore, some incidents like a mass protest here & there, and well over 2 weeks passed since then. Which leads me to conclude that _in my country_, COVID-19 has basically run its course. Yes it'll continue to go around, and find new victims that somehow managed to escape infection so far. And could make a comeback coming winter. Or some nasty mutation popping up. But _for now_: no 2nd wave. Regardless of all the fear mongering everywhere. At worst a slight uptick some weeks after another restriction is lifted.

The US is not there yet. Nor countries like Brazil, India or Russia. Or countries lagging behind even further. Not to mention economic / social / political upheaval. Rough times still ahead...


----------



## turbodog

All things are proportional to the known cases: unknown cases, hospitalizations, ICU beds, vents, etc.

My focus on confirmed cases is this... *it's a reflection, in aggregate, of our behavior as a society.* It's the quickest way to see if people are masking, if they are distancing, if they are avoiding unneeded trips to the store, if they are avoiding gatherings, and so on. The data is showing, at least in the region of the US I live in, that they are *NOT*.

Yes it's political. We've tested more in gross numbers than any other country, but not per capita. We are 22nd in that regard. And you have to look at all things as rates/percentages otherwise it's misleading. https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

This event will be studied for next next 100 years: virus itself, spreading, lockdown effects, masking effects, political effects, economic effects, shortages of drugs/PPE/beds.

Pretty much all major hospitals in my state have stopped non-critical surgeries yet the ICU numbers continue to grow. They have activated their 'surge' plans and _spare_ ICU availability is critically low. Care to tell me how that's _not_ a problem?

Go click on your state and compare to FL,TX,AZ. Be sure to overlay the US totals. Virginia is doing nicely right now. Other states not so much. https://covidtracking.com/data


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Fear is a great weapon that is used to control people and large numbers is useful to those who are ignorant of statistics and percentages and relevance to the world we live in. Instead of the media and politicians saying 6000 people were infected in a state of 4 million they say only 0.15% of the state was infected today they use the largest numbers possible to instill fear in those who don't relate them. People seem to forget we have 330 million people in the US and 150 thousand people dying is only 0.045% of the population has died so far from this virus


----------



## SCEMan

As of yesterday in LA County; 172,325 cases of COVID-19 and 4,351 deaths (not to mention the thousands whose lives will never be the same due to serious health ramifications of the disease). Consider that the actual number is probably 10 times higher with undetected infected asymptomatic carriers still at work and among us.

No indoor dining or movie theaters, etc. anywhere while the virus is out-of-control. With almost 80% of the recent cases under age 50 (majority of those under 30) the reopening has been a disaster. Reopening bars resulted in a breeding ground and it appears another shutdown is imminent. Meanwhile public protests and rioting further the crisis...


----------



## Greta

I laughed WAY too much at this!


----------



## turbodog

Lynx_Arc said:


> Fear is a great weapon that is used to control people and large numbers is useful to those who are ignorant of statistics and percentages and relevance to the world we live in. Instead of the media and politicians saying 6000 people were infected in a state of 4 million they say only 0.15% of the state was infected today they use the largest numbers possible to instill fear in those who don't relate them. People seem to forget we have 330 million people in the US and 150 thousand people dying is only 0.045% of the population has died so far from this virus



I hear you. So if the point was to say why percentages are not used I get it. Math/science literacy is low. Average US citizen reads at 8th grade level also.

I'm reminding you that the healthcare system can only service so many people at a time. C-19 is squeezing out other critical needs. When beds are needed for c-19, they are needed for long periods of time, not just a 1-2 day stay.

Going back to the infection numbers. They are a representation of our actions. So as long as they follow a certain pattern and we don't adjust our actions then we can see where numbers will end up. And it's not good.

XKCD says it well.

https://xkcd.com/2278/


----------



## turbodog

Greta said:


> I laughed WAY too much at this!
> 
> 
> ...



It actually looks pretty good. I'd buy one if it wasn't bright yellow and had the logo removed.


----------



## turbodog

SCEMan said:


> As of yesterday in LA County; 172,325 cases of COVID-19 and 4,351 deaths (not to mention the thousands whose lives will never be the same due to serious health ramifications of the disease). Consider that the actual number is probably 10 times higher with undetected infected asymptomatic carriers still at work and among us.
> 
> No indoor dining or movie theaters, etc. anywhere while the virus is out-of-control. With almost 80% of the recent cases under age 50 (majority of those under 30) the reopening has been a disaster. Reopening bars resulted in a breeding ground and it appears another shutdown is imminent. Meanwhile public protests and rioting further the crisis...



Sad thing is that if people would follow mask/distance/occupancy/etc guidelines we could probably reopen most everything. Tour bus/airlines would need supply of actual n95 to hand out, but otherwise the cloth masks would likely suffice.


----------



## Greta

turbodog said:


> It actually looks pretty good. I'd buy one if it wasn't bright yellow and had the logo removed.



I have Shamwows all over my house. I use them for just about everything... especially good for cleaning my bulldog's nose rope. And he likes it! When I even say the word "ShamWow", he heads to the kitchen for a cleaning. Great for cleaning those stainless steel appliances without streaking (use Pledge, not ordinary kitchen cleaners). Soooo... I would imagine, they would be quite effective as a mask... they work for everything else! - I would wear the logo... but yeah, the color? Meh. Maybe you can hand wash it and add a couple drops of food coloring to the rinse water? :shrug:

Now let's look at the other part of this commercial... Vince. I LOVE Vince! He sold me the SlapChop many years ago! Dude totally cracks me up!


----------



## turbodog

I received a 10 pack of the hanes white cotton masks. Dyed them red with clothes dye. Washed thoroughly. Then they turned all my socks pink.


----------



## PhotonWrangler

turbodog said:


> I received a 10 pack of the hanes white cotton masks. Dyed them red with clothes dye. Washed thoroughly. Then they turned all my socks pink.



I bought a package of these. The package claims "Adjustable nosepiece for enhanced fit" but there is no adjustable nosepiece. I'm not using them. Buyer beware.


----------



## nbp

I don’t care much about the nosepiece but do they fit your head decently? They are cheap enough so I was thinking of buying a pack so I could spread them around to my vehicles and such. Right now I have just one reusable mask and if I forget it at home and have to make an unplanned stop at a store or something I am in a pickle.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

turbodog said:


> I hear you. So if the point was to say why percentages are not used I get it. Math/science literacy is low. Average US citizen reads at 8th grade level also.
> 
> I'm reminding you that the healthcare system can only service so many people at a time. C-19 is squeezing out other critical needs. When beds are needed for c-19, they are needed for long periods of time, not just a 1-2 day stay.
> 
> Going back to the infection numbers. They are a representation of our actions. So as long as they follow a certain pattern and we don't adjust our actions then we can see where numbers will end up. And it's not good.
> 
> XKCD says it well.
> 
> https://xkcd.com/2278/



Our mayor mandated masks and a week later 200 extra hospital beds mysteriously opened.... I"m sure we have 2-300 more beds we could come up with if needed around here but hey.... gotta get attention so maybe you can run for senator when Inhoff retires one day here.
As for the numbers..... masks aren't going to defeat human behavior. People are tired of doing nothing a lot of folks aren't professional couch potatoes. People seem to think that we can shut down this virus... I think it would take putting everyone from about 16-35 in a coma for 6 months to halt it.


----------



## turbodog

Lynx_Arc said:


> Our mayor mandated masks and a week later 200 extra hospital beds mysteriously opened.... I"m sure we have 2-300 more beds we could come up with if needed around here but hey.... gotta get attention so maybe you can run for senator when Inhoff retires one day here.
> As for the numbers..... masks aren't going to defeat human behavior. People are tired of doing nothing a lot of folks aren't professional couch potatoes. People seem to think that we can shut down this virus... I think it would take putting everyone from about 16-35 in a coma for 6 months to halt it.




If OK is like MS the state health dept required to the hospitals to keep 25% spare beds available. They recently activated their 'surge' plan which allows this reserve to be 10%. Also, if they stopped non-emergency surgery then beds will free up in a few days. So yes, beds can appear overnight. And these spare beds continue to fill.

Other countries that masked, distanced, and aggressively contact traced have been able to reopen and enjoy a lower infection rate than we have. But those are countries... not a collection of 50 states each with their own governor and health dept.

OK surge capacity: https://www.ok.gov/health/Prevention_and_Preparedness/Emergency_Preparedness_and_Response/Health_Care_Coalition_Partners/Surge_Capacity/index.html


----------



## PhotonWrangler

nbp said:


> I don’t care much about the nosepiece but do they fit your head decently? They are cheap enough so I was thinking of buying a pack so I could spread them around to my vehicles and such. Right now I have just one reusable mask and if I forget it at home and have to make an unplanned stop at a store or something I am in a pickle.



For me they're way too tight. If you only have one reusable mask it's probably a fair stopgap measure but I'm still looking around for a different reusable one.


----------



## nbp

Ok thanks. I will poke around too. Mine was made by a friend and is of high quality but I wouldn’t mind getting a pack of 5 or so to leave in various places.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

turbodog said:


> If OK is like MS the state health dept required to the hospitals to keep 25% spare beds available. They recently activated their 'surge' plan which allows this reserve to be 10%. Also, if they stopped non-emergency surgery then beds will free up in a few days. So yes, beds can appear overnight. And these spare beds continue to fill.
> 
> Other countries that masked, distanced, and aggressively contact traced have been able to reopen and enjoy a lower infection rate than we have. But those are countries... not a collection of 50 states each with their own governor and health dept.
> 
> OK surge capacity: https://www.ok.gov/health/Prevention_and_Preparedness/Emergency_Preparedness_and_Response/Health_Care_Coalition_Partners/Surge_Capacity/index.html


Actually there are beds not in the "normal" hospital system that can be put online they are unrelated to the hospital "spare beds" rather a separate medical clinic that is opened up and then staffed. There are several of these that can be "added" to the spare beds when capacity is reaching too low. In other words it is like showing people the back room and telling them this is all we have then when it is getting full open up a secret door to another back room..... then another one... and so on.


----------



## turbodog

Yes, but be careful... extra beds are ok for certain things but not all.

C-19 requires isolation ward beds... rooms with negative air pressure. Otherwise the contaminated air gets recirculated and infects EVERYONE. Then there's the issue of equipment and staffing.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

turbodog said:


> Yes, but be careful... extra beds are ok for certain things but not all.
> 
> C-19 requires isolation ward beds... rooms with negative air pressure. Otherwise the contaminated air gets recirculated and infects EVERYONE. Then there's the issue of equipment and staffing.


I'm sure they could set things up for either covid only patients or non covid patients in alternative beds at a different location and ask Trump for a bunch of ventilators as he has extras and they are making lots of them so many that they can ship them to other countries already.


----------



## nbp

nbp said:


> Ok thanks. I will poke around too. Mine was made by a friend and is of high quality but I wouldn’t mind getting a pack of 5 or so to leave in various places.



Since SO many manufacturers have come out with masks lately I just started looking at sites of companies I already have gotten gear from and like dealing with. Saddleback Leather has some very nice simple and classy multilayer thick cotton masks available, both tie and elastic loop. So I ordered a 5 pack of the black elastic loop masks for $20. I already know their products are of high quality from the things I have of theirs so I am sure these will be nicely made and the price is very good. I’ll post about them in the Mask thread when they arrive.


----------



## turbodog

Lynx_Arc said:


> I'm sure they could set things up for either covid only patients or non covid patients in alternative beds at a different location and ask Trump for a bunch of ventilators as he has extras and they are making lots of them so many that they can ship them to other countries already.



I don't know how far to take this... I'm a pretty detail focused person. I'm also frustrated, seeing the effect bad info is having on us all.

Not all c-19 hospitalizations need a vent. And even with a vent, the vent exhausts exhaled/tainted air INTO the room air. So you end up with contaminated room surfaces, equipment, entire HVAC system, etc. If there were easy solutions from a treatment standpoint we would not have a problem.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

turbodog said:


> I don't know how far to take this... I'm a pretty detail focused person. I'm also frustrated, seeing the effect bad info is having on us all.
> 
> Not all c-19 hospitalizations need a vent. And even with a vent, the vent exhausts exhaled/tainted air INTO the room air. So you end up with contaminated room surfaces, equipment, entire HVAC system, etc. If there were easy solutions from a treatment standpoint we would not have a problem.


We have several businesses here that they are installing special hvac systems that can kill the virus they say. We also have a lot of manufacturing here especially in the aircraft industry most likely we are making ventilators here in the city somewhere even. 
I've personally installed AC systems for single rooms made by mitsubishi and there are other brands of these systems that are easily installed in a single room at a time. They have had several months to consider all of this either they were stupid to not prepare ahead for the chance of such spikes or they already set up to handle it.


----------



## turbodog

It's impossible to prep enough for a pandemic, that's the trick of it. If you expand capacity people respond by acting worse, and then you have the exact same problem. Literally the only route through a pandemic is prevention.

You can put a UV light in the HVAC and kill _most_ of the virus as it passes through. Are you willing to risk an outbreak in the hospital (that also includes ALL the staff) by doing this? I'd bet the hospital's legal dept and insurance carrier would like to have a word with you.

A single room a/c is nice, but it does not apply negative pressure to the room.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

turbodog said:


> It's impossible to prep enough for a pandemic, that's the trick of it. If you expand capacity people respond by acting worse, and then you have the exact same problem. Literally the only route through a pandemic is prevention.
> 
> You can put a UV light in the HVAC and kill _most_ of the virus as it passes through. Are you willing to risk an outbreak in the hospital (that also includes ALL the staff) by doing this? I'd bet the hospital's legal dept and insurance carrier would like to have a word with you.
> 
> A single room a/c is nice, but it does not apply negative pressure to the room.


I'm sure that all concerns would be accommodated as a clinic with no patients in it could be upgraded easily compared to an occupied hospital including proper health concerns for the virus. I don't really see an issue other than having enough staff and since they are still limiting medical operations they could possibly ask out of work doctors and nurses to staff it.


----------



## turbodog

Lynx_Arc said:


> I'm sure that all concerns would be accommodated as a clinic with no patients in it could be upgraded easily compared to an occupied hospital including proper health concerns for the virus. I don't really see an issue other than having enough staff and since they are still limiting medical operations they could possibly ask out of work doctors and nurses to staff it.



Still does not address the negative pressure needed to NOT contaminate the whole facility. Also, if you are on a vent in some clinic... what happens when power goes out? Hospitals are setup for this. There are countless logistical issues at play, legal issues, etc. We can't 'grow' our way out of this. There are already drug/PPE shortages.

https://www.chthealthcare.com/blog/negative-pressure-rooms

https://airinnovations.com/negative-positive-pressure-rooms-hospital-infection-control/


----------



## Lynx_Arc

turbodog said:


> Still does not address the negative pressure needed to NOT contaminate the whole facility. Also, if you are on a vent in some clinic... what happens when power goes out? Hospitals are setup for this. There are countless logistical issues at play, legal issues, etc. We can't 'grow' our way out of this. There are already drug/PPE shortages.
> 
> https://www.chthealthcare.com/blog/negative-pressure-rooms
> 
> https://airinnovations.com/negative-positive-pressure-rooms-hospital-infection-control/


I'm sure they can manage to come up with something. If some teenage girls in Afghanistan can make a portable battery powered ventilator I think a bunch of Engineers from 3 different colleges here and a hundred Hvac experts plus a gaggle of doctors won't have any problems fixing up whatever is needed. We don't have PPE shortages here at all 2 months of supplies extra.


----------



## turbodog

Lynx_Arc said:


> I'm sure they can manage to come up with something. If some teenage girls in Afghanistan can make a portable battery powered ventilator I think a bunch of Engineers from 3 different colleges here and a hundred Hvac experts plus a gaggle of doctors won't have any problems fixing up whatever is needed. We don't have PPE shortages here at all 2 months of supplies extra.



Can do and actually doing are two different things. And doing for one clinic is entirely different than doing for the entire state, entire nation, entire world.

Did you read the negative air links I posted? Neg pressure room gets air changed 12 times/hour... every 5 minutes. So you've going to snap your fingers and make enough HVAC capacity appear to service that demand? Enough electrical capacity appear to feed the mountain of HVAC equipment that magically appeared? 

We can't grow our way out of this.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

turbodog said:


> Can do and actually doing are two different things. And doing for one clinic is entirely different than doing for the entire state, entire nation, entire world.
> 
> Did you read the negative air links I posted? Neg pressure room gets air changed 12 times/hour... every 5 minutes. So you've going to snap your fingers and make enough HVAC capacity appear to service that demand? Enough electrical capacity appear to feed the mountain of HVAC equipment that magically appeared?
> 
> We can't grow our way out of this.


Actually you just need larger ducts and a bigger blower motor or several blower motors plus some filtering and venting systems and most likely larger blowers won't be a big electrical capacity issue it is when you need a lot more compressor power that you will have big issues and you don't need an ice box for patients.

You could also drop a new package unit on the roof made specifically to do what is needed and it is pretty easy to run power to a roof unit. I've seen package units swapped in/out in a day or two.


----------



## raggie33

they started baseball again looks like it is already canceled . who did not see this coming?


----------



## PhotonWrangler

The only way that sports can work during the pandemic is if all of the teams are living in a "bubble" like in Orlando, and nobody sneaks out for pizza or goes to a club.


----------



## turbodog

Lynx_Arc said:


> Actually you just need larger ducts and a bigger blower motor or several blower motors plus some filtering and venting systems and most likely larger blowers won't be a big electrical capacity issue it is when you need a lot more compressor power that you will have big issues and you don't need an ice box for patients.
> 
> You could also drop a new package unit on the roof made specifically to do what is needed and it is pretty easy to run power to a roof unit. I've seen package units swapped in/out in a day or two.



Normally I would have taken the conversation to a PM by now, but like I said I'm pretty tired of bad information coming out so I'm going to keep it all here, above board.

And I know this is more HVAC load calculation than pandemic discussion, but here we go anyway...

In a negative pressure hospital room the air changes out every 5 minutes according to spec. This does *NOT *mean circulated. *This means sent outdoors, lost, wasted, vamoose, history*.

To achieve this you will greatly have to up-size your HVAC equipment as normal HVAC operation recirculates air that is already fairly close to desired temp. This is NOT achievable with simply larger ducts and higher CFM fans.

It's basically a complete overhaul of HVAC, electrical, plumbing (for condensate), mechanical (installation of more/larger HVAC), mechanical (properly sealing the room to be airtight), mechanical (putting exhaust fans in place), mechanical/electrical (installing negative pressure sensors), employees (training on how to monitor neg pressure sensors and perform tests), and permitting/inspections for all of the above.

In addition, all the hospital HVAC I am familiar with uses chilled water anyway which is a whole other ball of wax.

Again, we are are comparing what's technically possible in one hospital with retrofitting the entire USA healthcare facilities, and doing it in the next few weeks?

Are we done now?


----------



## raggie33

PhotonWrangler said:


> The only way that sports can work during the pandemic is if all of the teams are living in a "bubble" like in Orlando, and nobody sneaks out for pizza or goes to a club.



i was bummed when the olmpics was delayed . i wait every four years to watch i love it so much all countrys treating each other nice


----------



## Lynx_Arc

turbodog said:


> Normally I would have taken the conversation to a PM by now, but like I said I'm pretty tired of bad information coming out so I'm going to keep it all here, above board.
> 
> And I know this is more HVAC load calculation than pandemic discussion, but here we go anyway...
> 
> In a negative pressure hospital room the air changes out every 5 minutes according to spec. This does *NOT *mean circulated. *This means sent outdoors, lost, wasted, vamoose, history*.
> 
> To achieve this you will greatly have to up-size your HVAC equipment as normal HVAC operation recirculates air that is already fairly close to desired temp. This is NOT achievable with simply larger ducts and higher CFM fans.
> 
> It's basically a complete overhaul of HVAC, electrical, plumbing (for condensate), mechanical (installation of more/larger HVAC), mechanical (properly sealing the room to be airtight), mechanical (putting exhaust fans in place), mechanical/electrical (installing negative pressure sensors), employees (training on how to monitor neg pressure sensors and perform tests), and permitting/inspections for all of the above.
> 
> In addition, all the hospital HVAC I am familiar with uses chilled water anyway which is a whole other ball of wax.
> 
> Again, we are are comparing what's technically possible in one hospital with retrofitting the entire USA healthcare facilities, and doing it in the next few weeks?
> 
> Are we done now?


https://www.infectioncontroltoday.c...-hospitals-build-negative-pressure-rooms-fast


----------



## KITROBASKIN

Who knew a "yes you can"/"no you can't" exchange, would yield an interesting source of information from a news source called Infection Control Today. There is an interview regarding testing and vaccines that seems relevant; reminding us about the imperfections of testing and vaccinations. 7 minutes 10 seconds into the video addresses the vaccine question:



Quick friendly reminders:
Estimated 30-50% death in Europe from plague in middle ages.
Less than 1% of world population died from Flu Pandemic of 1918.
(Someone correct this if wrong) Maybe 1/2 of those infected with COVID have virtually no problems (perhaps loss of smell and taste, like my uncle's college senior grandson)

Our USA state of New Mexico is seeing current hospitalizations trending down at this moment. We can all expect fluctuations, hopefully of less amplitude as time passes.


----------



## archimedes

KITROBASKIN said:


> ....
> (Someone correct this if wrong) Maybe 1/2 of those infected with COVID have virtually no problems....



CDC has revised their estimates of this recently (last updated July 10, 2020 / accessed July 28, 2020) here ....

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/planning-scenarios.html

They now list their "current best estimate" of this parameter at 40% being entirely asymptomatic, and with a "likely range" that the true value will be from 10% to 70%

Out of curiosity, I used the Wayback Machine to take a look from the beginning of July for comparison. On July 1, 2020 ... their current best estimate was 35% asymptomatic, with a range from 20% - 50% .... I am a little bit surprised that with far more testing data available, the "error bars" for this parameter appear to be widening ? :thinking:


----------



## turbodog

Lynx_Arc said:


> https://www.infectioncontroltoday.c...-hospitals-build-negative-pressure-rooms-fast



Thanks for the link. Think you made my point for me. Once again, what we can do for one building is impossible to achieve across the US in the next few weeks.

And from the article:

"There are *few studies as yet testing the effectiveness of establishing temporary isolation wards during a surge, cautions Clements*, who was on the team that established the Bay Area temporary ward. Before including a temporary isolation ward in a hospital surge capacity plan, he *advises conducting a (successful) full-scale demonstration to uncover any logistical and engineering issues*.

Caring for patients in negative pressure rooms *can amplify the usual constraints and stresses for staff.* Guangdong Second Provincial General Hospital, in China, came up with a way to help lessen some of the stress."

We can't grow our way out of this. I wish we could.


----------



## turbodog

archimedes said:


> ...
> 
> Out of curiosity, I used the Wayback Machine to take a look from the beginning of July for comparison. On July 1, 2020 ... their current best estimate was 35% asymptomatic, with a range from 20% - 50% .... I am a little bit surprised that with far more testing data available, the "error bars" for this parameter appear to be widening ? :thinking:



Don't know. We seem to be short on some of the data that could be really helpful... like randomized sampling across the US to see who has recovered (or is infected) that we don't know about... to gain some insight into the 'shadow' group.

I'm guessing here... but we've got so MUCH data flowing in from so many places it's got to be a nightmare organizing it all. And so much is premature or anecdotal.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

I think there is a lot more people who have been "infected" with Covid that have had no symptoms and are not contagious either that unless we test everyone they won't show in the statistics it could be 75% of people infected have no problems and symptoms are indistinguishable from a common cold or allergy symptoms. Our state is going down in infections in most places but the city is still going up for now despite mandatory face masking and threatening to pull business licenses if they don't enforce the mandate.
So far the statistics I have seen have the death rates from this virus at about 0.5% or less in the category of most current infections around here the rate is probably closer to 0.2% or so. 
From the little I've heard (which can be wrong, as too little accuracy in the media today) people are equating that immunity is temporary and that would possibly render any vaccine similarly in short time which means the virus could get pushed out of the country and 3-6 months later come right back again like it never left when immunity wears off.
It is quite possible that herd immunity does work but not perfectly and that it may in the end be the only way to get rid of the virus for good.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

turbodog said:


> Thanks for the link. Think you made my point for me. Once again, what we can do for one building is impossible to achieve across the US in the next few weeks.
> 
> And from the article:
> 
> "There are *few studies as yet testing the effectiveness of establishing temporary isolation wards during a surge, cautions Clements*, who was on the team that established the Bay Area temporary ward. Before including a temporary isolation ward in a hospital surge capacity plan, he *advises conducting a (successful) full-scale demonstration to uncover any logistical and engineering issues*.
> 
> Caring for patients in negative pressure rooms *can amplify the usual constraints and stresses for staff.* Guangdong Second Provincial General Hospital, in China, came up with a way to help lessen some of the stress."
> 
> We can't grow our way out of this. I wish we could.


If you do have existing clinic/hospitals that are more suitable for adapting to Covid vs just a plain warehouse building I agree that the time it takes to adapt is greatly increased as hospitals are designed to be cleaned top to bottom and ventilation is designed to reduce even eliminate contaminants in the air better than normal systems. In our case here we have several medical clinics that are already earmarked for overflow that the public were not told about that may not be totally set up for covid but I believe could be quickly adapted for such use a lot faster than building anything from scratch. There are people whose lives are at stake when a spike happens governments want to close down businesses thinking it will contain the virus. Personally I think that the reason places haven't seen spikes yet is the virus just hasn't been there yet when it does come it will find plenty of targets and whammo. 
You will sooner or later see people adapting buildings for Covid patients very quickly any way they can and although the results won't be perfect they will be better able to help them and contain the virus than otherwise.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Well the governor of my state here has successfully survived Covid 19. He had little discomfort only feeling a little weak one day of the whole 2 week ordeal in quarantine. There wasn't a big deal made about him being sick in the media here even though he refused to mandate masks for the entire states leaving it to the individual cities.


----------



## turbodog

Lynx_Arc said:


> ... In our case here we have several medical clinics that are already earmarked for overflow that the public were not told about that may not be totally set up for covid but I believe could be quickly adapted for such use a lot faster than building anything from scratch. ...



One of my first thoughts is that a clinic is a lot smaller than a hospital. So if rooms are converted to neg pressure the neg pressure room volume to rest of facility volume (and HVAC capacity) is a lot different. That said, we are still short of everything else. You need critical care nurses, machines, oxygen, more PPE, other support staffing. It's one thing to flip some room already setup for neg pressure to ICU and another thing to retrofit 'plain' rooms.

Labs in my area can't even get reagents on a frequent enough basis to run on-time nasal and blood tests for c-19. And cases keep climbing.

Local cardiac group decided to attend a 'function' the other day. Guess which cardiac group is out on 14 day quarantine now... and considering their sensitive patient type, they will require multiple negative tests before they return to work.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

turbodog said:


> One of my first thoughts is that a clinic is a lot smaller than a hospital. So if rooms are converted to neg pressure the neg pressure room volume to rest of facility volume (and HVAC capacity) is a lot different. That said, we are still short of everything else. You need critical care nurses, machines, oxygen, more PPE, other support staffing. It's one thing to flip some room already setup for neg pressure to ICU and another thing to retrofit 'plain' rooms.
> 
> Labs in my area can't even get reagents on a frequent enough basis to run on-time nasal and blood tests for c-19. And cases keep climbing.
> 
> Local cardiac group decided to attend a 'function' the other day. Guess which cardiac group is out on 14 day quarantine now... and considering their sensitive patient type, they will require multiple negative tests before they return to work.


Perhaps the volume is less or perhaps they aren't using every room in the clinic I don't really know but we did have 200 more hospital "rooms" appear out of nowhere and I believe that there are even more than can easily be converted to operate for a short time for Covid or transfer non Covid patients to them that don't need negative pressure and filtering as extensive this will leave you with more hospital rooms that do have better systems for isolation than the clinics.


----------



## raggie33

my freinds are starting to feel better after more then 3 weeks. they said it was the worse they have ever felt! wear a dang mask please


----------



## turbodog

Locally, hospitals are using surgical suites, labor/delivery rooms, etc for c-19. So that's a source of available rooms appearing overnight.


----------



## raggie33

well sadly i was right about herman cane rip


----------



## orbital

+

:eople are going to think I 'm making this up, it is the truth::

Just this morning I left a local business and was talking to the owner about Covid.

This business owner told me of a good friend of his & wife went to get tested, the line of cars was extremely long and taking very long.
They did do the paperwork, *but left before actually getting doing the test*,, it was just taking an extremely long time.

This couple forgot about it; but a couple weeks later received a letter stating they both had a positive coronavirus test.


----------



## PoliceScannerMan

raggie33 said:


> well sadly i was right about herman cane rip


So sad, RIP Herman 



orbital said:


> +
> 
> :eople are going to think I 'm making this up, it is the truth::
> 
> Just this morning I left a local business and was talking to the owner about Covid.
> 
> This business owner told me of a good friend of his & wife went to get tested, the line of cars was extremely long and taking very long.
> They did do the paperwork, *but left before actually getting doing the test*,, it was just taking an extremely long time.
> 
> This couple forgot about it; but a couple weeks later received a letter stating they both had a positive coronavirus test.


Absolutely believe that 100%.


----------



## raggie33

PoliceScannerMan said:


> So sad, RIP Herman
> 
> 
> Absolutely believe that 100%.


he was such a great guy who came from nothing and became a huge success


----------



## PoliceScannerMan

raggie33 said:


> he was such a great guy who came from nothing and became a huge success



We had a godfather's pizza in my hometown, used to go after baseball games. Herman ran that company for quite some time.


----------



## Monocrom

Greta said:


> I have Shamwows all over my house. I use them for just about everything... especially good for cleaning my bulldog's nose rope. And he likes it! When I even say the word "ShamWow", he heads to the kitchen for a cleaning. Great for cleaning those stainless steel appliances without streaking (use Pledge, not ordinary kitchen cleaners). Soooo... I would imagine, they would be quite effective as a mask... they work for everything else! - I would wear the logo... but yeah, the color? Meh. Maybe you can hand wash it and add a couple drops of food coloring to the rinse water? :shrug:
> 
> Now let's look at the other part of this commercial... Vince. I LOVE Vince! He sold me the SlapChop many years ago! Dude totally cracks me up!




The mask would survive the washing machine. But the ear-loops wouldn't. Main reason why the vast majority of online, independent, seamstresses selling masks recommend handwashing. Usually warm water with mild detergent. Then, hang the mask up to dry.


----------



## Monocrom

PhotonWrangler said:


> I bought a package of these. The package claims "Adjustable nosepiece for enhanced fit" but there is no adjustable nosepiece. I'm not using them. Buyer beware.



Unfortunately, through Trial & Error and buying up a bunch of different masks from a bunch of different sources; I've found that the Big Name companies that now make masks are making only decent ones at best. (With New Balance being the huge exception. Their mask design is excellent. But all of their supply is sold to Healthcare workers exclusively.)

No, the absolute best source I've found is Etsy. And even then.... Etsy is one of those places that lets everyone sell on their platform, yes even children! So, much of the place is a sewer; with quite a few cesspools that make the sewers look good. But there are indeed some sellers who are very professional. Out of over 100+ masks from countless different sellers, I found a handful (no, not joking) who actually know how to make proper masks. Quality masks. Absolute best you can get when it comes to washable/re-usable, hand sewn masks. Filter pockets (open ended, that's important). Nose-wires for that much needed tight seal on the face. Proper head-ties or elastic ear-loops that are comfortable.

PM me for a list of those sellers if you need good masks. Why not take advantage of what I've learned. And you get to save a small fortune along the way. Seriously, a handful. I wish I was joking.


----------



## Monocrom

raggie33 said:


> they started baseball again looks like it is already canceled . who did not see this coming?



I love me some baseball! Go Mets!.... And I wouldn't blame the players for going far, far away from New York City right now. 

In a case of obvious news being obvious, those in charge of MLB decided to be greedy and stupid. The result?....

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/...have-opted-out-as-marlins-deal-with-outbreak/


----------



## raggie33

this scares me so much i have a feeling the country will be in worse shape then 1929. so may people with no job due to covid 19. and all the jobs replaced by machines etc etc. i guess im lucky im dirt poor so i wont be effected to much. plus im terrified id get covid 19


----------



## Monocrom

raggie33 said:


> ... plus im terrified id get covid 19



All we can individually do to stay safe is our best. Look.... cutting through all the B.S., that means wearing a good mask. Properly. Without your nostrils exposed. Yes, it's easier to breath with a mask on that way. Also a heck of a lot easier to get infected. Might as well not even be wearing a mask. 

Only go out when you absolutely have to. Limit how long you're outside. When outside, maintain social distancing. 6 feet apart or more if possible. See someone outside without a mask, trying to talk to you? Tell them to get the Hell away from you. So what if they think you're being rude. Try to social distance as much as you can in the supermarket. Yes, I know that's not easy. But try. 

Even better, if you can, order your groceries online. 

Get plenty of hand-sanitizer. Home Depot is one excellent local source for that. I hate that frickin' company, but they have it. Get disinfecting wipes. That miserable company has those in stock too. Sometimes they even have surgical masks. (Though those masks take longer to get used to than a good Olson style face mask.) 

Going to be touching plenty of things when outside? Get a box of gloves from your local pharmacy. A box of 100 goes by faster than you'd think it does. 

Get plenty of soap from the local pharmacy or the supermarket. Doesn't have to be anti-bacterial. But if it is, hey; even better. Wash your hands often for at least 20 seconds per wash. 

These things *do* work. Despite what anyone tells you. Are they 100% effective? No. But name something that is when you're engaging in an activity. Main thing is, be cautious. Don't live your life gripped by fear. I'm in the middle of the most heavily infected city on the whole damn planet. I still take care of what I need to take care of. Still go out when it's necessary. Getting food, and doing other things to take care of myself and my elderly mother. For some, this whole thing is about an Academic Discussion. Maybe that's how they cope with it. Who knows. For me, it's about taking pragmatic precautions. Living in fear isn't going to cause this virus to burn itself out. 

All we can do is take the pragmatic precautions that we all know already exist. No point in living in fear. No need for it.


----------



## Kestrel

Monocrom said:


> [...] When outside, maintain social distancing. 6 feet apart or more if possible. See someone outside without a mask, trying to talk to you? Tell them to get the Hell away from you. *So what if they think you're being rude.* [...]



Honestly, my life got *a lot* better when I stopped worrying about what every last person thought about me.
Important people in my life, yes certainly; but everyone else - who /cares/ what they think ? 



Monocrom said:


> [...] These things *do* work. Despite what anyone tells you. Are they 100% effective? No. But name something that is when you're engaging in an activity. Main thing is, be cautious. [...] All we can do is take the pragmatic precautions that we all know already exist.


Fully concur. As an engineer (/not/ a theoretical scientist), I don't obsess about trying to get to that 100%.
And I rapidly tire of individuals who loudly belittle expedient protective measures because they are not fully 100% perfect.


----------



## turbodog

orbital said:


> +
> 
> :eople are going to think I 'm making this up, it is the truth::
> 
> Just this morning I left a local business and was talking to the owner about Covid.
> 
> This business owner told me of a good friend of his & wife went to get tested, the line of cars was extremely long and taking very long.
> They did do the paperwork, *but left before actually getting doing the test*,, it was just taking an extremely long time.
> 
> This couple forgot about it; but a couple weeks later received a letter stating they both had a positive coronavirus test.




Can we please stop posting rumors like this? This is the Nth time I've read the same thing. Never have seen proof. And even _if_ it happened (likely due to some paperwork error, human error, computer error) we still have a pandemic to fight.

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/coronavirus/fl-ne-covid-positive-test-hoax-20200713-xk3aueospjef7dffzazn4zm5ky-story.html


----------



## orbital

+

Relax turbodog.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ital-disputes-100-positive-report/5445139002/

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/commercial-lab-surveys.html


----------



## cy

turbodog said:


> Can we please stop posting rumors like this? This is the Nth time I've read the same thing. Never have seen proof. And even _if_ it happened (likely due to some paperwork error, human error, computer error) we still have a pandemic to fight.
> 
> https://www.sun-sentinel.com/coronavirus/fl-ne-covid-positive-test-hoax-20200713-xk3aueospjef7dffzazn4zm5ky-story.html



howdy .. been awhile since I posted on cpf .. looks like there's solid evidence of phony tests going on in Florida. 
now days it's almost impossible to post about C19 without being political .. when in fact hard science should be driving topics related to C19. 

Americasfrontlinedoctors being censored is a prime example. 
with a new website and new attorney Lin Wood
https://americasfrontlinedoctorsummit.com/


DeSantis is Demanding an Investigation People Who Haven’t Been Tested Are Testing Positive for COVID19 (www.liveleak.com)

SCIENCE FRAUD: Florida Gov. DeSantis calls for investigation into why people are testing “positive” for coronavirus tests they never received
https://dcdirtylaundry.com/science-...ve-for-coronavirus-tests-they-never-received/


----------



## raggie33

Monocrom said:


> All we can individually do to stay safe is our best. Look.... cutting through all the B.S., that means wearing a good mask. Properly. Without your nostrils exposed. Yes, it's easier to breath with a mask on that way. Also a heck of a lot easier to get infected. Might as well not even be wearing a mask.
> 
> Only go out when you absolutely have to. Limit how long you're outside. When outside, maintain social distancing. 6 feet apart or more if possible. See someone outside without a mask, trying to talk to you? Tell them to get the Hell away from you. So what if they think you're being rude. Try to social distance as much as you can in the supermarket. Yes, I know that's not easy. But try.
> 
> Even better, if you can, order your groceries online.
> 
> Get plenty of hand-sanitizer. Home Depot is one excellent local source for that. I hate that frickin' company, but they have it. Get disinfecting wipes. That miserable company has those in stock too. Sometimes they even have surgical masks. (Though those masks take longer to get used to than a good Olson style face mask.)
> 
> Going to be touching plenty of things when outside? Get a box of gloves from your local pharmacy. A box of 100 goes by faster than you'd think it does.
> 
> Get plenty of soap from the local pharmacy or the supermarket. Doesn't have to be anti-bacterial. But if it is, hey; even better. Wash your hands often for at least 20 seconds per wash.
> 
> These things *do* work. Despite what anyone tells you. Are they 100% effective? No. But name something that is when you're engaging in an activity. Main thing is, be cautious. Don't live your life gripped by fear. I'm in the middle of the most heavily infected city on the whole damn planet. I still take care of what I need to take care of. Still go out when it's necessary. Getting food, and doing other things to take care of myself and my elderly mother. For some, this whole thing is about an Academic Discussion. Maybe that's how they cope with it. Who knows. For me, it's about taking pragmatic precautions. Living in fear isn't going to cause this virus to burn itself out.
> 
> All we can do is take the pragmatic precautions that we all know already exist. No point in living in fear. No need for it.


ty for the info im always with my mask and hand sanatizer. i use it before and after i enter store. sadly i have to go to store often since i walk and cant carry much food. my back pack helps but i still have to make many trips. the online stores cost to much


----------



## turbodog

orbital said:


> +
> 
> ...
> 
> https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...ital-disputes-100-positive-report/5445139002/
> 
> https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/commercial-lab-surveys.html




The first link references a lab that tested correctly but simply failed to report their negative numbers. Bad reporting. Pos results still accurate.

Second link references some widespead CDC testing/evaluation. Mentions false pos/neg results which happen with any test.

Neither of those address the supposed earlier 'ghost positive'.


----------



## cy

turbodog said:


> The first link references a lab that tested correctly but simply failed to report their negative numbers. Bad reporting. Pos results still accurate.
> 
> Second link references some widespead CDC testing/evaluation. Mentions false pos/neg results which happen with any test.
> 
> Neither of those address the supposed earlier 'ghost positive'.



look at the links I posted above .. yes there's actual basis for bogus tests results in Florida 
there's MUCH more evidence related to bogus test results ..

number of positive test results means little to nothing .. especially when C19 tests are about 50% inaccurate 
what counts if number of deaths .. even that number is grossly distorted. 
dying from C19 is completely different from dying with C19

example .. someone gets killed in a car accident and listed as C19 death
someone with stage 4 lung cancer dies ... C19, etc etc. etc.


----------



## turbodog

cy said:


> ...
> 
> SCIENCE FRAUD: Florida Gov. DeSantis calls for investigation into why people are testing “positive” for coronavirus tests they never received
> ...



In the articles linked he called for people to come forward that this has happened to. He goes on to say that so far no people have, that there are no confirmed instances of this happening.

What we DO know is that it killed 252 people in FL yesterday, 1,465 in US alone.


----------



## turbodog

cy said:


> look at the links I posted above .. yes there's actual basis for bogus tests results in Florida
> there's MUCH more evidence related to bogus test results ..



Sorry. What am I misreading? Seriously... don't think I missed something like that.


----------



## cy

turbodog said:


> Sorry. What am I misreading? Seriously... don't think I missed something like that.



have posted actual evidence for that yet .. since it's all but impossible to cover C19 without getting political .. 

for instance .. masks don't work ... several randomized trials provides actual evidence that masks has no effect on flu with N95 masks in a healthcare setting. 
surgical masks and cloth masks has something close to 97% passthru .. N95 masks has about 44% passthru

most masks are for bacteria .. NOT virus which are too small for most masks worn by general public and most healthcare workers.

follow links posted above to Americasfrontline doctors videos .. viral videos with 17 million+ views in one day, quickly censored/deleted by youtube, facebook, twitter, etc. 
well worth watching .. science based evidence has nothing to with politics , yet it's all but impossible to avoid getting political due to media bias


----------



## cy

turbodog said:


> In the articles linked he called for people to come forward that this has happened to. He goes on to say that so far no people have, that there are no confirmed instances of this happening.
> 
> What we DO know is that it killed 252 people in FL yesterday, 1,465 in US alone.



sorry all C19 death numbers are suspect ... there's a huge difference from dying with C19 vs dying from C19
rules used by CDC to determine C19 are so lax it's ridiculous ... 


CDC acknowledges mixing up coronavirus testing data
https://thehill.com/policy/healthca...coronavirus-testing-data#.XxOHA_UDwRo.twitter

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) acknowledged Thursday that it is combining the results from viral and antibody COVID-19 tests when reporting the country's testing totals, despite marked differences between the tests.

First reported by NPR's WLRN station in Miaimi, the practice has drawn ire from U.S. health experts who say combining the tests inhibits the agency's ability to discern the country's actual testing capacity.

“You’ve got to be kidding me,” Ashish Jha, director of the Harvard Global Health Institute, told The Atlantic. “How could the CDC make that mistake? This is a mess.”

ADVERTISEMENT
Viral tests — commonly referred to as PCR tests as most of them use a process known as polymerase chain reaction — are used by health professionals to determine whether or not a person is currently infected with the disease. During the pandemic, viral tests have been the most effective way of being able to diagnose a positive case of COVID-19. They are what state governments have been counting to track the number of confirmed cases of the virus they have.

Antibody, or serology, tests serve a different purpose. Unlike viral tests that are taken by nose swab or saliva sample, antibody tests examine a person's blood to see if their immune system has created antibodies to combat COVID-19. These tests allow doctors to see if someone has previously been exposed to the virus. As the push for widespread testing in the U.S. has strengthened, antibody tests have been widely produced, many experts have balked at saying that antibodies equate to immunity from COVID-19. Serology tests are also less accurate than PCR tests, increasing the chances for a false negative.

Moreover, a negative test means different things for either test. A negative PCR test indicates to physicians that the patient isn't currently ill with the disease. But, a negative serology test means that the patient has most likely not been exposed to or infected with COVID-19.

“The viral testing is to understand how many people are getting infected, while antibody testing is like looking in the rearview mirror. The two tests are totally different signals,” Jha told The Atlantic.


----------



## raggie33

im no dr but i dont see how mask could not help! i asked people who work in the medical field everyone told me wear a mask


----------



## ven

raggie33 said:


> this scares me so much i have a feeling the country will be in worse shape then 1929. so may people with no job due to covid 19. and all the jobs replaced by machines etc etc. i guess im lucky im dirt poor so i wont be effected to much. plus im terrified id get covid 19




Best mask available is still limited protection, strongly consider safety glasses to compliment the mask. The mask is more to protect others from you(if infected), wearing glasses helps protect you. Just thoughts. I wont lie and say its fun, but i have been wearing safety glasses for a couple of month now........anti mist ones help a little. You can also buy an anti mist spray to coat the lenses which does help/work. This does need to be done daily . 

I still think a face shield is the best choice, but you will get some funny looks!
Here is a little health guide for NHS in the UK, level 1 PPE everyone working there has to follow as a minimum.

What is PPE?PPE stands for Personal Protective Equipment, and comes in several levels.
What is level 1 PPE?

Single pair of gloves
Disposable plastic apron
Fluid repellent surgical mask
Eye protection if you feel there is a risk of patient coughing, or splash or droplet exposure.
https://www.ouh.nhs.uk/working-for-us/staff/covid-staff-faqs-ppe.aspx


----------



## cy

ven said:


> Best mask available is still limited protection, strongly consider safety glasses to compliment the mask. The mask is more to protect others from you(if infected), wearing glasses helps protect you. Just thoughts. I wont lie and say its fun, but i have been wearing safety glasses for a couple of month now........anti mist ones help a little. You can also buy an anti mist spray to coat the lenses which does help/work. This does need to be done daily .
> 
> I still think a face shield is the best choice, but you will get some funny looks!
> Here is a little health guide for NHS in the UK, level 1 PPE everyone working there has to follow as a minimum.
> 
> What is PPE?PPE stands for Personal Protective Equipment, and comes in several levels.
> What is level 1 PPE?
> 
> Single pair of gloves
> Disposable plastic apron
> Fluid repellent surgical mask
> Eye protection if you feel there is a risk of patient coughing, or splash or droplet exposure.
> https://www.ouh.nhs.uk/working-for-us/staff/covid-staff-faqs-ppe.aspx



show me the evidence any of above works and I'm all on board!
your link only describes what is PPE ... no evidence said PPE are effective preventing virus transmission 

so far I've not seen a shred of evidence masks work to prevent corona virus infection
but I've seen several randomize trials with thousand that shows no difference wearing N95 masks for flu in healthcare settings

now the lastest BS is wearing googles and/or face shields is somehow going to help prevent spread of C19 
it's reasonable to ask ... where's the actual evidence?

no actual evidence = BS

-------


N95 respirators

Honeywell is a manufacturer of N95 respirators. These are made with a 0.3 micron filter. (12) N95 respirators are so named, because 95% of particles having a diameter of 0.3 microns are filtered by the mask forward of the wearer, by use of an electrostatic mechanism. Coronaviruses are approximately 0.125 microns in diameter. 

This meta-analysis found that N95 respirators did not provide superior protection to facemasks against viral infections or influenza-like infections. (13) This study did find superior protection by N95 respirators when they were fit-tested compared to surgical masks. (14)

This study found that 624 out of 714 people wearing N95 masks left visible gaps when putting on their own masks. (15)

Surgical masks

This study found that surgical masks offered no protection at all against influenza. (16) Another study found that surgical masks had about 85% penetration ratio of aerosolized inactivated influenza particles and about 90% of Staphylococcus aureus bacteria, although S aureus particles were about 6x the diameter of influenza particles. (17)

Use of masks in surgery were found to slightly increase incidence of infection over not masking in a study of 3,088 surgeries. (18) The surgeons’ masks were found to give no protective effect to the patients. 

Other studies found no difference in wound infection rates with and without surgical masks. (19) (20)

This study found that “there is a lack of substantial evidence to support claims that facemasks protect either patient or surgeon from infectious contamination.” (21)

This study found that medical masks have a wide range of filtration efficiency, with most showing a 30% to 50% efficiency. (22)

Specifically, are surgical masks effective in stopping human transmission of coronaviruses? Both experimental and control groups, masked and unmasked respectively, were found to “not shed detectable virus in respiratory droplets or aerosols.” (23) In that study, they “did not confirm the infectivity of coronavirus” as found in exhaled breath.

A study of aerosol penetration showed that two of the five surgical masks studied had 51% to 89% penetration of polydisperse aerosols. (24)

In another study, that observed subjects while coughing, “neither surgical nor cotton masks effectively filtered SARS-CoV-2 during coughs by infected patients.” And more viral particles were found on the outside than on the inside of masks tested. (25)

Cloth masks

Cloth masks were found to have low efficiency for blocking particles of 0.3 microns and smaller. Aerosol penetration through the various cloth masks examined in this study were between 74 and 90%. Likewise, the filtration efficiency of fabric materials was 3% to 33% (26)

Healthcare workers wearing cloth masks were found to have 13 times the risk of influenza-like illness than those wearing medical masks. (27)

This 1920 analysis of cloth mask use during the 1918 pandemic examines the failure of masks to impede or stop flu transmission at that time, and concluded that the number of layers of fabric required to prevent pathogen penetration would have required a suffocating number of layers, and could not be used for that reason, as well as the problem of leakage vents around the edges of cloth masks. (28)

Masks against Covid-19

The New England Journal of Medicine editorial on the topic of mask use versus Covid-19 assesses the matter as follows:

“We know that wearing a mask outside health care facilities offers little, if any, protection from infection. Public health authorities define a significant exposure to Covid-19 as face-to-face contact within 6 feet with a patient with symptomatic Covid-19 that is sustained for at least a few minutes (and some say more than 10 minutes or even 20 minutes). The chance of catching Covid-19 from a passing interaction in a public space is therefore minimal. In many cases, the desire for widespread masking is a reflexive reaction to anxiety over the pandemic.” (29)

https://www.primarydoctor.org/masks-not-effect


----------



## turbodog

cy said:


> ...
> 
> CDC acknowledges mixing up coronavirus testing data
> https://thehill.com/policy/healthca...coronavirus-testing-data#.XxOHA_UDwRo.twitter
> 
> ...



If you're going to post a link and text be sure to get the summary at the bottom of the article.

"The combining of the tests could lead to the skewing of the overall positivity rate of the test, a measurement that is one of the benchmarks used in the reopening guidelines released by the White House and CDC.

"I suspect it will *artificially lower the percent positive*," Caitlin Rivers, an epidemiologist at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, told NPR."

*So, according to your own article, FL is in WORSE shape than reported.*

From my own direct experience... there's a ton of activity going on with c-19 right now. And there's a good bit of changes also. New equipment is getting ordered & setup. "Bedside" type tests are getting setup and people trained on them. There's widespread shortages of testing chemicals, machine shortages, employee shortages. Are there honest small errors at times? Yes. 

These errors exist under the best circumstances... how do you think people get given the wrong drugs or blood types for transfusions?

Are the numbers largely accurate? Yes.

Are cotton masks as good as nylon/polyester? No.
Are nylon/polyester as good as n-95? No.
Are n95 good as n100? (yes there are better than n95) No.
Are n100 better than n100 half-face respirator? No.
Is n100 half-face respirator better than full face n100? No.

Are ALL of these better than nothing? Yes.

*Due to exponential growth, even a 1% drop in transmission is HUGE after a very small number of DAYS. Days, not weeks or months.*

Is more or less the southern 1/3 to 1/2 of the US on track for uncontrolled/uncontrollable outbreak immediately? Yes.

And concerning the front line dr video. Assuming they are credible... assuming there is treatment (cure is a STRONG word to use... and its use raises suspicion) the treatment will be useless unless preventative measures are in place to control spread. Without controlling spread, the numbers will spike so high so quickly you won't be able to get to a doctor for an appt nor will the drugstore have stock of the drugs needed. 

You cant' grow your way out of a pandemic. Prevention is critical.


----------



## cy

turbodog said:


> If you're going to post a link and text be sure to get the summary at the bottom of the article.
> 
> "The combining of the tests could lead to the skewing of the overall positivity rate of the test, a measurement that is one of the benchmarks used in the reopening guidelines released by the White House and CDC.
> 
> "I suspect it will *artificially lower the percent positive*," Caitlin Rivers, an epidemiologist at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, told NPR."
> 
> *So, according to your own article, FL is in WORSE shape than reported.*
> 
> From my own direct experience... there's a ton of activity going on with c-19 right now. And there's a good bit of changes also. New equipment is getting ordered & setup. "Bedside" type tests are getting setup and people trained on them. There's widespread shortages of testing chemicals, machine shortages, employee shortages. Are there honest small errors at times? Yes.
> 
> These errors exist under the best circumstances... how do you think people get given the wrong drugs or blood types for transfusions?
> 
> C19 death numbers are cooked in America ... dying from C19 is completely different from dying with C19
> HCQ, zinc and Zpak or doyx if heart issues .. loads and load of evidence supports, if given early will all but eliminate C19
> 
> watch the Americasfrontlinedoctors videos!!!! links above
> 
> Are the numbers largely accurate? Yes.
> 
> Are cotton masks as good as nylon/polyester? No.
> Are nylon/polyester as good as n-95? No.
> Are n95 good as n100? (yes there are better than n95) No.
> Are n100 better than n100 half-face respirator? No.
> Is n100 half-face respirator better than full face n100? No.
> 
> Are ALL of these better than nothing? Yes.
> 
> Due to exponential growth, even a 1% drop in transmission is HUGE after a very small number of DAYS. Days, not weeks or months.
> 
> Is more or less the southern 1/3 to 1/2 of the US on track for uncontrolled/uncontrollable outbreak immediately? Yes.
> 
> And concerning the front line dr video. Assuming they are credible... assuming there is treatment (cure is a STRONG word to use... and its use raises suspicion) the treatment will be useless unless preventative measures are in place to control spread. Without controlling spread, the numbers will spike so high so quickly you won't be able to get to a doctor for an appt nor will the drugstore have stock of the drugs needed.
> 
> You cant' grow your way out of a pandemic. Prevention is critical.



I've seen no evidence any of measures suggested by CDC actually works to prevent spread of viral infections aka china virus, wuhan virus, ccp virus etc. 

vs randomize trials with thousands that reveals no evidence masks has any effect on transmission of flu in healthcare setting with N95 masks


----------



## turbodog

I've got a meeting to go to but will ask this before I leave.

You are the governor, state health dept director, etc.

Virus is spreading like mad. Deaths are increasing (and lag infections by about 6 weeks which presents planning difficulties).

What do you do? What do you recommend? 

Keep in mind you need something simple that all can understand and follow and that we have access to NOW in sufficient quantities for the entire US population. 

It needs to be effective. If you fail then doctors' offices/hospital ER/etc will literally be overwhelmed and people will be dying in their homes.


----------



## cy

turbodog said:


> I've got a meeting to go to but will ask this before I leave.
> 
> You are the governor, state health dept director, etc.
> 
> Virus is spreading like mad. Deaths are increasing (and lag infections by about 6 weeks which presents planning difficulties).
> 
> What do you do? What do you recommend?
> 
> Keep in mind you need something simple that all can understand and follow and that we have access to NOW in sufficient quantities for the entire US population.
> 
> It needs to be effective. If you fail then doctors' offices/hospital ER/etc will literally be overwhelmed and people will be dying in their homes.



watch the videos by Americasfrontlinedoctors! links posted above and below
http://stateofthenation.co/?p=22423
https://twitter.com/drsimonegold/st.../p/GbotUvNx/drsimonegoldthank-you-all-so-m/c/

sauce: for below and referenced by Americasfrontlinedoctors
https://archive.is/H2Wuz






As professor of epidemiology at Yale School of Public Health, I have authored over 300 peer-reviewed publications and currently hold senior positions on the editorial boards of several leading journals. I am usually accustomed to advocating for positions within the mainstream of medicine, so have been flummoxed to find that, in the midst of a crisis, I am fighting for a treatment that the data fully support but which, for reasons having nothing to do with a correct understanding of the science, has been pushed to the sidelines. As a result, tens of thousands of patients with COVID-19 are dying unnecessarily. Fortunately, the situation can be reversed easily and quickly.

I am referring, of course, to the medication hydroxychloroquine. When this inexpensive oral medication is given very early in the course of illness, before the virus has had time to multiply beyond control, it has shown to be highly effective, especially when given in combination with the antibiotics azithromycin or doxycycline and the nutritional supplement zinc.

On May 27, I published an article in the American Journal of Epidemiology (AJE) entitled, "Early Outpatient Treatment of Symptomatic, High-Risk COVID-19 Patients that Should be Ramped-Up Immediately as Key to the Pandemic Crisis." That article, published in the world's leading epidemiology journal, analyzed five studies, demonstrating clear-cut and significant benefits to treated patients, plus other very large studies that showed the medication safety.


----------



## cy

Good short periscope from Scott Adams re: the cost benefit analysis of Hydroxychloroquine/zinc/azithromycin and fake news, even for Hydroxychloroquine skeptics. (mobile.twitter.com)

https://t.co/trfDfkx4TF?amp=1

https://www.pscp.tv/w/1rmGPYDnqXDJN

https://www.pscp.tv/ScottAdamsSays/1rmGPYDnqXDJN


----------



## nbp

@ Cy:

Just to see if I understand your stand. Your method to combatting this would be to simply abandon all preventative methods and just Pump those who contract the disease full of medications?


----------



## raggie33

nbp said:


> @ Cy:
> 
> Just to see if I understand your stand. Your method to combatting this would be to simply abandon all preventative methods and just Pump those who contract the disease full of medications?


if its thc ill be the guinea pig. im just teaseing kinda


----------



## cy

nbp said:


> @ Cy:
> 
> Just to see if I understand your stand. Your method to combatting this would be to simply abandon all preventative methods and just Pump those who contract the disease full of medications?



sorry no ... what I'm saying is follow the science .. no actual evidence = BS
any course mandated by public heath officials should be backed up with actual evidence it works. 
it's completely reasonable to ask .. show me the evidence it works. 

for instance I've not been able to find a shred of evidence masks works in terms of prevent spread of viruses. 
vs I've seen several randomize trials with thousands with results showing N95 masks worn in a healthcare setting makes NO difference. 
loads of actual evidence in links below from American front line doctors that says HCQ/zinc/zpak or docxy flat works when given early in correct dosage. 


watch the videos by Americasfrontlinedoctors! links posted above and below
http://stateofthenation.co/?p=22423
https://twitter.com/drsimonegold/sta...ll-so-m/c/

sauce: for below and referenced by Americasfrontlinedoctors
https://archive.is/H2Wuz


Newsweek shocked to learn that counting every death as COVID makes COVID the leading cause of death


----------



## bigburly912

The optometrists and the doctor who says having sex with demons causes endometriosis?? Nah I’ll pass


----------



## cy

bigburly912 said:


> The optometrists and the doctor who says having sex with demons causes endometriosis?? Nah I’ll pass



never mind that HCQ/zinc/zpak is recommended by Didier Raoult .. the number one ranked infectious disease expert in the world: https://www.expertscape.com/ex/communicable+diseases
https://www.expertscape.com/ar/communicable+diseases/a/Raoult,+

there's soooo much media basis that big tech, search engines, etc. etc. are making it all but impossible to find info 
on top of deleting videos that doesn't follow the party line .. 

folks treatment for corona viruses is not new .. this was covered by NIH back 2005 for SARS COV which is 80%+ the same virus as SARS COV-2 aka COVID 19, CCP viruse, china virus, wuhan virus, etc etc. chloroquine was touted as effective treatment for SARS in 2005. 

anytime anyone touts anything .. ask for the actual evidence .. for C19 there's sooo much misinformation that the bar has to be higher to rise up above the noise. unfortunately this mean reading scientific white papers.

no actual evidence = BS 
ask any governor that's imposed mandatory masks for evidence masks work .. they will not be able to come up with actual evidence it works. 
vs several randomize trials with thousands shows no evidence N95 masks prevents flu infection in healthcare settings. surgical masks and/or clothe masks are completely ineffective against virus


----------



## turbodog

nbp said:


> @ Cy:
> 
> Just to see if I understand your stand. Your method to combatting this would be to simply abandon all preventative methods and just Pump those who contract the disease full of medications?



And I'm actually for that IF we have enough healthcare capacity, drugs, etc to go around.


----------



## turbodog

cy said:


> watch the videos by Americasfrontlinedoctors! links posted above and below
> http://stateofthenation.co/?p=22423
> ...



Forgive me... but the link you posted also has links to 'control the matrix of the universe for financial prosperity'. It doesn't look like the most impartial, accurate, or sane site.

And you never answered my question. Even IF HCQ treats c-19, we don't have enough.


----------



## cy

turbodog said:


> Forgive me... but the link you posted also has links to 'control the matrix of the universe for financial prosperity'. It doesn't look like the most impartial, accurate, or sane site.
> 
> And you never answered my question. Even IF HCQ treats c-19, we don't have enough.



who cares ... that site is hosting a slew of videos by Americasfrontlinedoctors .. videos that big tech has deleted after 17million+ views in one day. 
watch the videos .. they are worth your time

America has some 62 million doses of HCQ on hand .. HCQ has been around for 50+ years and has been given some 2 billion doses according to Didler Raout of France. HCQ has one of the best safety record of any drug and is OTC in most of the world. 

there is no shortage of HCQ .. due to politics HCQ is hard to get access. total costs of treatment for HCQ/zinc/zpak about $20 with very safe profile. vs remdesivir $3000 with no improvement in death rate, it merely shortens stay in hospital by 5 days. what's not widely known is remdesivir's horrible safely profile of horrible side effects including liver failure. remdesivir has to be given via IV drip mostly in late stages where an antiviral makes little to no difference in helping patient improve survival. early randomized trials for Remdesivir show it to be no better than placebo. 

please note HCQ is a zinc ionosphore, meaning HCQ transports zinc inside cells where it shuts down viral replication. HCQ can be used as preventative or prophylaxis. all it takes is one 200mg HCQ pill every other week after ramp up. 

HCQ is not the only zinc ionophore .. Quercertin is another zinc ionophore .. importance of vitimin D makes a huge difference in how C19 effects. 
almost no one promotes importance of taking vitamin D, C and A to harden your immune system. vitamin D levels makes a huge difference in how well your body fights off C19. 

I'm taking Quercetin 1000mg daily with 25mg zinc, liposoma vitamin C, D-3 and A

listen to Americasfrontlinedoctors. they state C19 has two stages ... stage 1 when HCQ/zinc has the best chance of shutting down virus to prevent you from reaching stage two. when the body goes into a cytokine storm ... your odds of surviving goes waaaay down. 
some claim you have a 90% chance of dying once on a ventilator.


----------



## turbodog

For the 3rd time, you still have not answered my question.

And 60M doses, unless I am missing something, is 60M pills. With 300M people, everyone get 1/5 of a single pill. Clearly more is needed and needed quickly. What's our HCQ production ability now? And when we are competing with the rest of the globe for HCQ?

I watched some of the videos and had already seen some from days ago.

If HCQ is a risk managed course of action... that might be fine for a *subset of the population*. A pandemic kills by more than one mean. The disease itself can kill. And plenty more deaths can come from simply being unable to receive care due to an overload of healthcare system.

*Without prevention an overload is inevitable, which brings us back to my earlier post. Let's hear the suggestions for handling the pandemic, and 'take HCQ' is NOT an answer.*


----------



## cy

turbodog said:


> For the 3rd time, you still have not answered my question.
> 
> And 60M doses, unless I am missing something, is 60M pills. With 300M people, everyone get 1/5 of a single pill. Clearly more is needed and needed quickly. What's our HCQ production ability now? And when we are competing with the rest of the globe for HCQ?
> 
> I watched some of the videos and had already seen some from days ago.
> 
> If HCQ is a risk managed course of action... that might be fine for a *subset of the population*. A pandemic kills by more than one mean. The disease itself can kill. And plenty more deaths can come from simply being unable to receive care due to an overload of healthcare system.
> 
> *Without prevention an overload is inevitable, which brings us back to my earlier post. Let's hear the suggestions for handling the pandemic, and 'take HCQ' is NOT an answer.*



there is NO shortage for HCQ .. india has agree to supply America with mass quantities of HCQ. Kodak entered into agreement of US government a day ago to start mfg raw material for generic drugs. Trump is bringing mfg of generic drugs back to USA.

sorry I even had to mention Trump's actions since it was directly related to answer. it's almost impossible to discuss C19 topic without bring politics into it ...

if/when you watch Americasfrontlinedoctors videos ... you will find out kids are all but immune to C19 with not ONE instance of a kid transmitting C19 to a teacher in the world. number of kids under 14 dying from C19 is almost zilch, the tiny handful of kids dying probably had existing conditions. 

give teachers HCQ/zinc as prophylaxis .. one pill every other week is all it takes .. open our schools back up. 
damage to kids from schools being shut down in this critical time, cannot be measured.


----------



## bigburly912

CY, I know of 3 people personally treated with HCQ/zinc/zpak. They made full recoveries in no time. I know the drugs work because one of them was really bad off. That being said......... I still don’t trust quacks to tell me anything. Raoult should not be used as an example with this “front line doctors group” if you aren’t on the front lines you don’t deserve that title and some of them aren’t. My wife is.


----------



## cy

bigburly912 said:


> CY, I know of 3 people personally treated with HCQ/zinc/zpak. They made full recoveries in no time. I know the drugs work because one of them was really bad off. That being said......... I still don’t trust quacks to tell me anything. Raoult should not be used as an example with this “front line doctors group” if you aren’t on the front lines you don’t deserve that title and some of them aren’t. My wife is.



Americasfontlinedoctors directly quoted Didler Raoult .. look up all the doctors inside viral videos links shown. they are all board certified doctors in good standing. don't believe the basis media attacking Americasfrontlinedoctors. Dr Gold has already been fired for being in videos. 

good to hear you know first hand HCQ/zinc/zpak flat works! 
but it's got to be given early to have a chance to work. after C19 reaches second stage to where the damage has been done bad enough for the body generate a cytokine storm. antivirals are no longer as effective. a common steroid has shown to improve survival by 35%+ by a recent trial in UK.

James Todaro, MD is part of Americasfrontlinedoctors and was one of the earliest publishers for C19 .. check out his website
https://www.medicineuncensored.com/


----------



## bigburly912

cy said:


> Americasfontlinedoctors directly quoted Didler Raoult .. look up all the doctors inside viral videos links shown. they are board certified doctors in good standing.



Ummmmmm. When you tell me that demon succubuses cause sexual diseases then no. That’s not good standing. Directly posted on one of the doctors twitter accounts by that doctor.


----------



## turbodog

CY,

I'm watching your kooky videos from crazy websites. You owe me reciprocity. 

Either specifically answer my post #2037 about how to handle this from public policy perspective or you and I are done. Full stop.


----------



## cy

bigburly912 said:


> Ummmmmm. When you tell me that demon succubuses cause sexual diseases then no. That’s not good standing. Directly posted on one of the doctors twitter accounts by that doctor.



you are referring to the black female doctor. yes she is a board certified doctor in good standing. 
so what her African heritage shows. listen to her speak, there's more than one video. she is very concise with her delivery and refers back to scientific research constantly. she was clearly the star of the day .. so basis media is in attack mode at her.


----------



## Empath

Okay. It's obvious from the recent activity here why we limit political discussions here. It's not that we forbid it. We simply require that it be taken to the proper places. CPF permits such discussion in our Underground board. Or you can find extensive discussion in thousands of other places on the net. it's reached a saturation point here. It's time for a rest. The thread will be closed for a day or two or three, or what is hoped to be long enough to stop this junk.

More cerebral discussion on the topic can still be discussed in this fine thread. If you attempt to use that thread to promote your agendas it will stick out as obviously off-topic and will be promptly dismissed as such.

Conditionally Re-Opened


----------



## ledbetter

Isn’t it time to get back to pandemic news and information? Yeah, some of it is trash, but I’d rather have that discussion than personal chit chat.


----------



## Greta

ledbetter said:


> Isn’t it time to get back to pandemic news and information? Yeah, some of it is trash, but I’d rather have that discussion than personal chit chat.



Personal chit chat. Hmmm... yeah, I suppose some look at it as that trivial, irrelevant and unnecessary. But to some it is a lifeline. It is commiseration during a time that can be and is very difficult for some. Sometimes just knowing there are others out there going through the same thing, knowing you're not alone, knowing you have someone to reach out to is most definitely not trivial or unnecessary. Carry on with your "news and information". But don't diminish something that could be helping someone WAY more than your news and information... which changes by the minute... literally :shakehead


----------



## raggie33

ordered 50 more mask.


----------



## raggie33

they keep opening schools here and it turns out bad .im so glad when my mask get here


----------



## ledbetter

Greta said:


> Personal chit chat. Hmmm... yeah, I suppose some look at it as that trivial, irrelevant and unnecessary. But to some it is a lifeline. It is commiseration during a time that can be and is very difficult for some. Sometimes just knowing there are others out there going through the same thing, knowing you're not alone, knowing you have someone to reach out to is most definitely not trivial or unnecessary. Carry on with your "news and information". But don't diminish something that could be helping someone WAY more than your news and information... which changes by the minute... literally :shakehead


OK, no problem, I get it. But I think this thread should start again because it helps augment the news sources I regularly view.


----------



## bykfixer

Thereputics early on were what doctors and scientists were really hoping to discover. And some were in clinical trials as early as March. Most got very little press like nicotine patches. My favorite was the active ingredient in Pepcid AC. So I did some follow up on where that one has gone and there are some that swear it works (on some) and other trials that showed it does not. There was one article that said the active ingredient causes covid-19. I had to pause and reread the headline……causes covid 19. But isn't there a virus involved? I pondered. 

Wash your hands, stay 6' apart, mask up if you can't and enjoy life as much as you can. They made it through the Spanish flu, some reading here made it through the Hong Kong flu (1969) and we'll make it through this pandemic. Is there an official name for it yet? I know it has several names but is there one official okee dokee one yet?


----------



## Monocrom

Most likely will be remembered as the COVID Pandemic. They might keep the 19 part.


----------



## bykfixer

I liked the term "beer bug" but that one kinda fizzled out once it hit the US.


----------



## markr6

Does anyone think a vaccine is even a viable solution? I just can't see it happening so quickly and effectively. And I figure a lot of people would be afraid to try it anyway. Not sure I want to get my 'Sputnik V' shot.

My son started kindergarten yesterday. I feel bad for the kids, especially those just starting their school "career". It's hard enough already. To start with masks, cleaning, distancing, etc. is unfortunate. I don't see it lasting very long though...we'll see.


----------



## idleprocess

markr6 said:


> My son started kindergarten yesterday. I feel bad for the kids, especially those just starting their school "career". It's hard enough already. To start with masks, cleaning, distancing, etc. is unfortunate. I don't see it lasting very long though...we'll see.



Eh, my sense is that this is the new normal for at least the rest of the year.

Local school district is starting up next week 100% remote instruction. There is a _tentative_ plan to resume on-site instruction in September which is widely expected to mean a resumption of remote instruction by October as school employees start testing positive for COVID-19 and individual campuses are shut for quarantine / decontamination periods. Curiously - despite all the anxiousness for schools to reopen - close to ⅔ of parents have registered for remote instruction.

On the latter bit I do wonder what this will do to the modern trend of helicopter parenting. Will parents hover over their breadsnappers _even more_, or will the strain of supervising Junior literally all the time result in less supervision _(and hopefully the earlier development of responsibility)_? I say this having grown up as a latchkey kid who managed not to poison myself, burn down the house, nor suffer any serious maladies despite being left to my own devices for 2-4 hours a day in the afternoon - _something that's generally not allowed any more_.


----------



## Monocrom

Grew up as a latch-key kid myself. Never had a single major or minor issue. 

As far as schools re-opening, if you want to see a perfect example of both human stupidity and denial; look no further. As far as how long the virus is going to last, I'd say we can realistically write off not just the rest of this year, but all of 2021 too. I say that because of examples of the following:

Giant house-party over the weekend in Brooklyn. Cops estimated about 1500 people (not a typo). Zero social distancing, no masks to be found. This is the type of moronic nonsense our lovely younger generation likes to engage in.... in the most infected city on the entire planet. 

Young as Hell. Can't even sacrifice one Summer of their entire lives to _NOT_ party, get drunk, get wasted, vomit on themselves, while trying to hook up with random strangers. STDs, Covid-19, heck you could tell them half of all the drinks will be spiked with Anthrax; they'll *still* show up to the Bar. 

End of this year? the Optimist in me will be surprised when it turns 2022 and the virus has burned itself out. Speaking of the New Year, anyone care to take bets on just how many partiers will show up to Times Square on Dec. 31st?


----------



## markr6

idleprocess said:


> Eh, my sense is that this is the new normal for at least the rest of the year.
> 
> Local school district is starting up next week 100% remote instruction. There is a _tentative_ plan to resume on-site instruction in September which is widely expected to mean a resumption of remote instruction by October as school employees start testing positive for COVID-19 and individual campuses are shut for quarantine / decontamination periods. Curiously - despite all the anxiousness for schools to reopen - close to ⅔ of parents have registered for remote instruction.
> 
> On the latter bit I do wonder what this will do to the modern trend of helicopter parenting. Will parents hover over their breadsnappers _even more_, or will the strain of supervising Junior literally all the time result in less supervision _(and hopefully the earlier development of responsibility)_? I say this having grown up as a latchkey kid who managed not to poison myself, burn down the house, nor suffer any serious maladies despite being left to my own devices for 2-4 hours a day in the afternoon - _something that's generally not allowed any more_.



I should have clarified. "I don't see it lasting very long" as in...a bunch of people will get sick or worse and things will get shut down. I give it about 2 weeks.


----------



## Poppy

idleprocess said:


> <SNIP>
> 
> Local school district is starting up next week 100% remote instruction. There is a _tentative_ plan to resume on-site instruction in September which is widely expected to mean a resumption of remote instruction by October as school employees start testing positive for COVID-19 and individual campuses are shut for quarantine / decontamination periods. Curiously - despite all the anxiousness for schools to reopen - close to ⅔ of parents have registered for remote instruction.
> 
> <SNIP>


Here in New Jersey, the Governor demanded at least partial on site teaching. He has recently backed off on that.
AT least four large school districts stated that they won't be ready in September, and have to start fully remote.
At least one district will go ONLY remote, stating that most of the districts teachers refuse to enter the building to do on site teaching. 

A recent survey in our area reported that 81% of parents are ready/planning to send their kids to school. That number surprised me. It must be in part to the fact that the numbers in NJ have done well. IMO that many kids in closed class-rooms, will spike the numbers.

idleprocess, I agree with you in that I suspect that those schools which open up, will end up closing after a few weeks.

OTOH, while speaking with a Physician who has treated hundreds of Covid patients, he thinks the schools should open up for in person teaching. Yeah, some people will get sick, really sick, generally not kids, and that he didn't have a patient that surprised him when it went bad. His perspective is that those who went bad, including kids, had underlying issues. Yes there will be outliers, but there are always outliers.

Regarding taking a vaccine? No way!!! Not for at least three years after it has been introduced. Long term affects, etc.

Protect the elderly, and those at risk, and let the virus run its course. 

I can't say that I fully disagree, but again OTOH, the hospitals were nearly over-run with the younger generation spikes.


----------



## idleprocess

Poppy said:


> A recent survey in our area reported that 81% of parents are ready/planning to send their kids to school. That number surprised me. It must be in part to the fact that the numbers in NJ have done well. IMO that many kids in closed class-rooms, will spike the numbers.



Reality of the economy is that _*a*_ function of schools _is to provide daycare_ for working parents.



Poppy said:


> idleprocess, I agree with you in that I suspect that those schools which open up, will end up closing after a few weeks.
> 
> OTOH, while speaking with a Physician who has treated hundreds of Covid patients, he thinks the schools should open up for in person teaching. Yeah, some people will get sick, really sick, generally not kids, and that he didn't have a patient that surprised him when it went bad. His perspective is that those who went bad, including kids, had underlying issues. Yes there will be outliers, but there are always outliers.



Children generally don't get sick from COVID-19, but the evidence is mounting that they're efficient vectors for it _like most other infectious diseases_.

Teachers aren't as easily replaced as, say, cashiers. _Even deferring teaching certifications_, local districts are having a hell of a time filling open positions - something that will only get worse as campuses shut down because of infections among staff and the profession fights the persistent headwinds of low pay, public contempt, and generally _being set up to fail_. Districts are well aware of this, thus their reluctance to fully re-open in spite of public pressure.



Poppy said:


> I can't say that I fully disagree, but again OTOH, the hospitals were nearly over-run with the younger generation spikes.



In my county case frequency peaks in the 20-29 demo, but they've also registered zero deaths - that bracket is firmly anchored by the 80+ demo with 70-79 and 60-69 barely trailing. Intensity of treatment data is not available by age range, however I suspect that dying of the disease has a strong correlation to time in the hospital.

Since COVID really took off around March the 20-something set has taken a beating in the media. Some of it is deserved - ala college student spring break shenanigans - but I also suspect that much of it is the grim economic reality that younger people are generally on thinner economic margins and tend not have the flexibility in employment that older workers enjoy thus cannot work from home or otherwise reduce their exposure to the disease.


----------



## raggie33

herman cains ghost is freaking me out. he tweets way more now then before he left this planet


----------



## scout24

Off topic but topical- CY- I will ask you to remove the first part of your sig line. CPF has policies in place regarding sales, including having a dedicated subforum and the need for a supporter subscription. Thank you.


----------



## bykfixer

Went for an annual checkup today and saw a chart on the wall showing typical symptoms of covid, flu and head cold. I thought it was pretty handy. Hope you do too. 







But……is it really a cold or is it allergies? 





Here's another handy chart. 

Oh, and got a clean bill of health.


----------



## PhotonWrangler

Thanks for the helpful charts and congrats on a clean bill of health. May it stay that way.


----------



## bykfixer

Yup, hopefully each time the X pollens or ragweed or mold counts cause the "uh oh" or your kid has the sniffles these charts can help reduce anxiety a little. 

I started seeing a heart doctor a few years ago due to irregular heartbeat that scared the crap out of me and after trying a medication (daily pill #3) in 6 months he sent me on my way and says come back in a year. This was year two. So far so good. 
Daily pill #4 is a claretin lately. Hence the allergy versus cold chart. I had several "uh oh's" this year. Knock on wood none have been the evil beer bug.


----------



## raggie33

has anyone else been covering there entire body in mustard before they go out? im getinng weird looks when i do this


----------



## KITROBASKIN

Thanks fixer for the chart. I took a picture of it to show wife later.

Our (actually she is) capable boss ordered masks with our logo on the front of it. It is decent: adjustable ear tension, almost pointy protuberant area where the nose goes, cotton inside and poly/spandex outside (hopefully electrostatic effect). Inside the clear wrap containing the mask was a card making it clear that the mask is not PPE. "The decision to use this mask is solely your own" underlined at the bottom of the card. Then a sewn-in tag inside the mask, describing it to be China made, with washing instructions and materials used; "WARNING: Not intended to prevent or eliminate exposure to any disease, infection, or communicable disease". Strange Days Indeed.


----------



## Poppy

raggie33 said:


> has anyone else been covering there entire body in mustard before they go out? im getinng weird looks when i do this


try covering yourself with ketchup, and dragging a chain, and compare the looks.
let us know.


----------



## Poppy

bykfixer,
Thanks they are great charts!

And I am glad that you are well!

Poppy


----------



## raggie33

now that would just be silly


----------



## PhotonWrangler

Poppy said:


> try covering yourself with ketchup, and dragging a chain, and compare the looks.



You try it first. We'll pass the hat for your bail money! :laughing:


----------



## Monocrom

KITROBASKIN said:


> Thanks fixer for the chart. I took a picture of it to show wife later.
> 
> Our (actually she is) capable boss ordered masks with our logo on the front of it. It is decent: adjustable ear tension, almost pointy protuberant area where the nose goes, cotton inside and poly/spandex outside (hopefully electrostatic effect). Inside the clear wrap containing the mask was a card making it clear that the mask is not PPE. "The decision to use this mask is solely your own" underlined at the bottom of the card. Then a sewn-in tag inside the mask, describing it to be China made, with washing instructions and materials used; "WARNING: Not intended to prevent or eliminate exposure to any disease, infection, or communicable disease". Strange Days Indeed.




If it doesn't have a filter pocket (preferably open on both ends) where you can insert a disposable PM2.5 filter, don't bother. The filter is the thing. The reason masks can be made from breathable cotton is so folks can breath easier with such a mask, but more important.... to hold filter material in place in a secure way and consistent manner.


----------



## PhotonWrangler

Monocrom said:


> If it doesn't have a filter pocket (preferably open on both ends) where you can insert a disposable PM2.5 filter, don't bother. The filter is the thing. The reason masks can be made from breathable cotton is so folks can breath easier with such a mask, but more important.... to hold filter material in place in a secure way and consistent manner.



Indeed. I bought a couple of cotton washable masks with filter pockets. If I hold the mask up to a light I can see plenty of light passing through the fabric. The gaps in the fabric that pass light can also pass viral particles. If I hold the mask's PM2.5 filter up to the light, nothing passes through it directly.


----------



## raggie33

im useing some 15 cents mask now


----------



## PhotonWrangler

raggie33 said:


> im useing some 15 cents mask now



All of the paper masks I've seen lately have three layers, which is good. The outer layers are paper and the inner layer is that "meltblown" material. Some of these masks have a thicker center layer than others.


----------



## bykfixer

The light blue/green type? 
The kind dentists wore before covid-19.

They were going for $2 each in my area when you could find them back in April. Now a box of 50 is around $4. They're pretty comfy to breath through for me. And they mostly stay put when you talk. That's about 90% of what I see folks wearing in my area anymore. I hardly see anymore "fashion" numbers or Nike swoop kind. I'm also noticing bandanas are making a comeback. Plain color like solid blue or gray. I was the only person in the store with a "fun mask" on. Mine today was a dental number with "covid-19 sucks" written on it. 

Our grocery store was fully stocked this week. Even Lysol and Clorox wipes were plentiful. I noticed several peoples baskets were stocked with dry cereal like Apple Jacks and Raisin Bran. Trouble on the horizon or just coincidence? Perhaps it was stocking up for hurricane season? ………


----------



## Poppy

bykfixer said:


> <SNIP>
> 
> Our grocery store was fully stocked this week. Even Lysol and Clorox wipes were plentiful. I noticed several peoples baskets were stocked with dry cereal like Apple Jacks and Raisin Bran. Trouble on the horizon or just coincidence? Perhaps it was stocking up for hurricane season? ………


In case there is trouble on the horizon, in part because after Labor Day school will start with many kids probably cross contaminating, and a month later the regular flu season will start.

The prepper in me bought a small 5 cu ft freezer, and a generator. 7 cu ft freezers were not available within 100 miles.
This week I plan to go shopping and to stock up on those items that became unobtainable when people started hording.
In particular I need to get a supply of "California Pizza Kitchen" frozen pizza. No other brand will do for those with an eating disorder.
Penne pasta, and Classico vodka sauce. Other brands were sometimes available, but wouldn't get eaten in my house.

At least now we have a better idea what to buy, and not to waste our money on.


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

Define irony. :laughing:



Poppy said:


> ...
> 
> The prepper in me bought a small 5 cu ft freezer, and a generator. 7 cu ft freezers were not available within 100 miles.
> This week I plan to go shopping and to stock up on those items that became unobtainable when people started hording.
> 
> ...
> 
> At least now we have a better idea what to [hoard], and not to waste our money on.


 
:nana:


----------



## Poppy

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> Define irony. :laughing:
> 
> 
> 
> :nana:


Oh yes, very funny :thumbsup:

Hmmm, did I make a comment back a little while ago, that I missed your humor? What was I thinking?

Back at ya! :nana:


----------



## raggie33

PhotonWrangler said:


> All of the paper masks I've seen lately have three layers, which is good. The outer layers are paper and the inner layer is that "meltblown" material. Some of these masks have a thicker center layer than others.


yea 3 layers on my mask i even took one apart to check .as i said b4 i wore a mask since early march


----------



## chillinn

I don't want to start a panic or argument. By now, everyone should know what the cloth layered masks are for... protecting others from you, not visa versa. You are protected by keeping your hands clean, not touching your face, and keeping your distance from everyone. Bearing in mind your mask is for everyone else, new studies have shown that wearing these masks, I mean surgical masks, bandannas, and all the new designer masks, do somewhat reduce the risk of your own infection. But even the N95 surgical masks were not designed to protect the wearer, but prevent the wearer from infecting a vulnerable patient in a critical environment.

If you are not infected, or have been infected and have fully recovered, there are masks that protect the wearer, if you can find them. Back in February and previously, they could be found in any hardware store or paint store in North America with suitable filters for about $12-$16. By March, gone gone gone. Even major suppliers were out of stock. I mean a half face reusable respirator with P95 or P100 organic HEPA filters. The HEPA filters are quite amazing, and virus is an easy target for these 3M filters, even though the virus is actually smaller than the filters' ratings of 3nm, smaller particles still won't get through. You could be on a ward of 50 infected coughing on you and if you wear eye protection, not be infected. In fact, you will see some medical personnel in such environments wearing the far more expensive medical Air Purifying Respirators (APR), which start at about $200, but they are basically the same, function the same, as the 3M 6200 (6300 for big faces, 6100 for children)... though some of the medical APRs have little motors and fans in them. 

The caveat is these masks do not protect others from you, there is no filtering when you exhale, so if you wear them, do not be infected, _know for certain_ that you are not infected. 3M respirators and the P95 or P100 organic filters can be found domestically on eBay, but there is a lot of price gouging, and some only apparent price gouging, mostly due to residential sellers getting them from major suppliers, and FedEx, UPS. et. al jacking shipping prices to residences. 

The non-USPS shippers are really outdoing themselves in sucking. USPS is a good model of what shipping prices should be to any residence. I think other shippers need to be federally investigated on their insane pricing schemes. Tiny box going to a residence, $18-$25, while USPS might charge $8 or less depending on weight. 

Anyway, remain uninfected CPFers. All you need do is keep your hands clean, do not touch your face, and keep your distance from everyone, and you can escape this without illness, filtering respirator or not.

Edit: Kids, btw, are walking Petri dishes. They have to be. That is how we build resistance to infection as children. If you have kids, carry wipes, and hand sanitizer, and use generously.


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

Just kidding, Poppy. If you were a hoarder, you would've purchased the seven cubic foot freezer. 



Poppy said:


> Oh yes, very funny :thumbsup:
> 
> Hmmm, did I make a comment back a little while ago, that I missed your humor? What was I thinking?
> 
> Back at ya! :nana:


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

> *Comorbidities*
> 
> Table 3 shows the types of health conditions and contributing causes mentioned in conjunction with deaths involving coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19). *For 6% of the deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned. For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 2.6 additional conditions or causes per death.* The number of deaths with each condition or cause is shown for all deaths and by age groups. For data on comorbidities,
> 
> Click here to download.
> 
> https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/...dbTrmKwH1NdaBx6PpZo2kxotNwkUXlnbZXCwSRP2OmqsI


----------



## markr6

This guy at work wears a face shield. Looks like it doesn't almost nothing. At an angle, only 1" below chin. Trying to get around the mask rule I guess.


----------



## bykfixer

Face shields is a legitimate thing. Some schools are using them along with truck drivers and others, it just did not catch on like so-called masks for a few reasons. But for lip reading they work well along with seeing peoples facial expression. 

If you notice most wear disposable masks now. At about 15 cents each (now) versus a $3 plastic face shield……

It's kinda like betamax versus vhs. VHS won.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

markr6 said:


> This guy at work wears a face shield. Looks like it doesn't almost nothing. At an angle, only 1" below chin. Trying to get around the mask rule I guess.



Some people wear face shields because they have health issues with a mask like Asthma and other breathing issues. I think in some ways a face shield is more protection than a mask... in others less protection.


----------



## chillinn

Face shields serve the same purpose as the cloth masks, to protect others from you, and they do offer some protection from a full frontal assault of another's sneeze or cough, but a mask can not protect you completely unless it seals air tight and actually filters virus. Just use what's available. Coronavirus technically is not airborne, but can hang in the air indoors for minutes after someone coughs or sneezes, and walking through an unseen cloud of infected moisture droplets could infect you. But the most common infection vector, by far, is from infected surfaces, touching an infected surface, then touching your eyes or nose. This is how it spreads so fast, and not as much from walking through clouds of someone's sneeze or cough. Being sneezed on and coughed on probably infected a number of people also, but not nearly as much as people infecting themselves with their own fingers. Tie your arms down if you have to, but don't touch your face.


----------



## KITROBASKIN

chillinn, do you have documentation/published-research on your information?

The Clear Mask I spoke of in the mask thread brought some concern at work so I stopped using it. My opinion: the Clear Mask is probably more effective against spraying micro droplets and spittle on others than masks with exhaust ports or thin scarves and such. But it's all essentially half measures between 'no mask use' and 'everybody go home and stay there from now on until the miraculous vaccine saves us all' 

Having worked 20+ years with special ed and kinder students, there is no doubt to me that my body is strong and prepared, and won't go bat scat doofus over-reacting to Coronavirus.


----------



## knucklegary

I heard on noon news China has No new cases of virus, and all schools are open this Fall 

Wtf! Does the Chinese government know something we don't, ..or is this more fake news?

Kitro, after 20 yrs of snot noses you must have an iron clad immune system!


----------



## chillinn

KITROBASKIN said:


> chillinn, do you have documentation/published-research on your information?



Mechanical filter, this explains nicely about how a HEPA filter, rated to 3nm, will filter nearly all airborne particles, 99.97% of particles down to 3nm, and even a larger percentage of those far smaller than 3nm. (idk where the mu is on my iPad, so I have been using nm to mean "micrometers," sorry for any confusion with nanometers)



Wikipedia said:


> HEPA filter are all filters meeting certain efficiency standards. A HEPA filter must remove at least 99.97% (US) or 99.95% (EU) of all airborne particulates with aerodynamic diameter of 0.3 μm. Particles both smaller and larger are easier to catch, and thus removed with a higher efficiency.





Wikipedia said:


> The SARS-CoV-2 virus is a large pleomorphic spherical particle with bulbous surface projections. The average diameter of the virus particles is around 0.12 μm. The diameter of the envelope is 0.08 μm and the spikes are 0.02 μm long.



Micrometers (μm) are one millionth of a meter (m), or one thousandth of a millimeter (mm). To give you an idea of how small micrometers are...

Between 1 μm and 10 μm:
1–10 μm – length of a typical bacterium
10 μm – Size of fungal hyphae
5 μm – length of a typical human spermatozoon's head
3–8 μm – width of strand of spider web silk
about 10 μm – size of a fog, mist, or cloud water droplet

Between 10 μm and 100 μm:
about 10–12 μm – thickness of plastic wrap (cling wrap)
10 to 55 μm – diameter of wool fibre (not a thread, which is made of many fibres)
17 to 181 μm – diameter of human hair
70 to 180 μm – thickness of paper


Regarding 3M filters:

"certain organic vapors"

3M model (6001, 6003, 6004, 6005, 6006, 6009, 60921, 60923, 60926, 60925, 60928) filters are rated for "certain organic vapors," and include charcoal filtering; when they are paired with the P100 or P95 prefilter and prefilter retainer as a combination filter/cartridge, offer organic filtering superior to filters listed below only rated for 

"nuisance level organic vapor relief,"

P100, round or disk shaped, pink, magenta or grey, 3M model (2091-07000, 2097 or 07184, 2291, 2297, 7093C or 37173) filters are rated for "nuisance level organic vapor relief, " and nuisance levels refer to concentrations below the OSHA PEL or other government standard, whichever is lower.

But with either set up (including 3M P95 filters), all virus is an easy target for them, according to the 3M filter expert I spoke with. I had to wait on hold nearly 2 hours, but he set my mind at ease. 

(Apparently, the reason 3M personal protective equipment (PPE) is difficult to get a hold of now when once (like in early February 2020) so ubiquitous, my understanding at least, is the federal government bought up all stock everywhere and are hoarding it. By now, the feds have enough respirators to equip every man, woman and child physically within the borders of the US a few times over. I don't know how true that is, sounds a bit like a whacky conspiracy.)

The N95 medical masks are a different animal. They must be fit tested to seal against the face. A 3M (6000, 7000, 8000, & 9000 series) or Honeywell (with their own filters I am not familiar with) reusable respirator seals air tight against the face, and matched with proper organic filters, will certainly be protective (but won't protect others around you from you).


Regarding _naked individual virus_ being able to go through even a layered cloth mask like it isn't there... this is my own conjecture, based on my powers of deduction. The finest, tightest weave made of spider silk would not be able to prevent virus from going through it, because a virus is about 100x smaller than any weave possibly could be.

A _plain_ weave (the tightest and simplest of all weaves) of 0.3mm diameter Kevlar fibers wrapped to about 10 times that size, or 3mm, is about as tight a weave as practical. Coronavirus is 2500 times smaller than the diameter of Kevlar fiber, and at least 250 times smaller than the smallest gaps between its plain weave threads. 

Internet search the news regarding newest studies about the cloth masks (here's what's at CDC),
because these ordinary cloth masks, even cheesy ones, regardless of the obvious, help immensely to prevent infection for the wearer, because while the point of them is to stop your droplets, which may be filled with virus and large enough to be trapped in a cloth weave, they do end up also stopping the droplets coming at you. Coronavirus is not airborne, and it can only hang for a short time in the air in these far larger droplets that are sneezed and coughed out.

Protecting the eyes is just as important in public as protecting the nose and mouth, prescription glasses and sunglasses will do, as well as safety glasses.

Contact wearers should have stopped wearing their contacts, at all, months ago. Don't wear contacts until the pandemic has abated.

The main infection vector is your own fingers, *IMO*. Keep those clean, and don't touch your face, keep back from others, and you won't be infected, mask or not.

Note: CDC disagrees with me (and I am terrible at biology, but I can read and generally my logic is bulletproof)


> COVID-19 is primarily transmitted from person-to-person through respiratory droplets. These droplets are released when someone with COVID-19 sneezes, coughs, or talks. Infectious droplets can land in the mouths or noses of people who are nearby or possibly be inhaled into the lungs.



CDC says being sneezed and coughed on is the main infection vector. I just don't buy it. Yes, that will infect you. How often are the sick coughing and sneezing on the uninfected? I think, I really believe, the only way this could spread so fast is we do it to ourselves: someone sneezes, the infected water droplets hang briefly, maybe as long as 15 minutes to an hour depending on environmental circulation systems, but ultimately they land on surfaces, and Coronavirus can exist there for days, depending on what that surface is (not on copper or silver, or any other oligodynamic metal, like brass), we come along later, lean against this surface, touch it, then rub our eyes. I think it takes 2 instances of a single virus to be infected, and that can happen with a single nose rub. Don't touch your face.


----------



## bykfixer

knucklegary said:


> I heard on noon news China has No new cases of virus, and all schools are open this Fall
> 
> Wtf! Does the Chinese government know something we don't, ..or is this more fake news?



Back in July China said they had tested 90 million people and had like 36 new cases in the month. 
Dictator government distorting facts? Say it aint so.


----------



## KITROBASKIN

This conversation sounds like the guy who gets told by someone he's attracted to, "You're a great guy but I don't want to go out with you". And the guy thinks to himself "She thinks I'm a great guy! I'll win her over yet." Seems like each of us keeps saying our own beliefs while others refute our comments, yet we keep saying certain masks will keep you safe.

Harley Head, I've been washing my hands about 7-10 times a day at work for many, many years. Speaking strongly to students who sneeze, cough or spray as much as they say. Not accepting birthday cupcakes from a kid who's been handing them out while licking her fingers when icing gets on them... Adults can be so spreading too, though. The idea is to get some, but not loads of their stuff that keeps our immune system working hopefully in balance.


----------



## raggie33

the wrestling guy called the block has covid 19 so does his family


----------



## knucklegary

Kitro, I am sure all those youngsters hockin, and finger lickin sharing comes with the territory 

After 20 yrs sounds like you got program down brother 

Stay safe!


----------



## knucklegary

Raggio, "The Rock" Dwyane Johnson, he and his family all tested covid positive

Rock is shaped like a Block


----------



## raggie33

knucklegary said:


> Raggio, "The Rock" Dwyane Johnson, he and his family all tested covid positive
> 
> Rock is shaped like a Block


opps i hope they get well soon


----------



## knucklegary

I read they're all recovering nicely


----------



## Hooked on Fenix

California is closing a lot of the beaches this Labor Day weekend to limit the spread of corona virus. Unfortunately, we're supposed to have record breaking heat again that could cause rolling blackouts, so those going to the beach will be stuck at home running their a.c. contributing to more blackouts. I hope the people trying to camp in this heat don't start any more forest fires. If your local beach is open, enjoy it. Not everyone is that fortunate. Our church is finally allowed to worship indoors this Sunday. Thank God. It's supposed to be 112 degrees. I hope we don't get a spike in corona virus cases Labor Day weekend that shuts everything down again.


----------



## Greta

So things have opened up again around here. We had record numbers in the channel under the bridge and out in the bay for a Trump boat parade this past weekend. It was quite the spectacle! My favorite watering hole is back open with certain restrictions imposed by the state - masks unless you're seated. Yes, I know it seems (is?) stupid. But if the bar doesn't enforce it, they can be shut down (they are told). Time will tell if the Health Dept will be coming around and actually checking. Meanwhile though... the regulars are so grateful to be back that they are more than happy to comply and more than happy to help enforce. Only one or two people have been jerks. Everyone has been awesome. And THAT is why it's my favorite watering hole - the regular patrons. We want to keep our place open. And seriously - stay in your seat, take your mask off, enjoy!! It's kinda no big deal!


----------



## Poppy

I'm curious... are the seats spaced 6 feet apart?
Did they limit capacity?


----------



## Greta

Poppy said:


> I'm curious... are the seats spaced 6 feet apart?
> Did they limit capacity?



Yes, only 6 chairs at the bar.. all spaced. Half capacity, 22 people. All strictly enforced. They have outdoor seating though and that is not limited.


----------



## bykfixer

Not long ago I was in a doctors office and noticed a sign that said "please don't move the chairs as we have spaced them 6 feet apart". Trouble was the chairs were all touching each other. Having an inkpen in my pocket I added a tick mark to the 6' part so it now says 6". 
The doctor reduced patient appointments so the place is no longer like a crowded restaraunt on 2 for 1 night. 

My state still has around 1000 new cases a day, but percent positive is back down to where the crack downs will be relaxed soon. Some schools reopened so we'll see how that plays out in a couple of weeks. Meanwhile stores have a person outside (that Mrs Fixer calls the mask police) to make sure people have an opportunity to have a face cover when entering if they don't have one. Once you're in there's an honor system. Generally the mask nazi is as easily spotted in my area as Sasquatch. It's a live and let live thing and on the rare chance someone does raise a ruckus they are quickly shushed by mask wearing folks who don't want drama around.


----------



## chillinn

bykfixer said:


> It's a live and let live thing...



That's really the crux of it... that those insisting they won't wear a mask don't seem to get (which has already been described and complained about satisfactorily in this thread, and the CPFers get it):
_Wear a mask, and let me live. _


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

Different strokes for different folks. Right, chillinn?


----------



## coffeecup66

.
France hitting record number of daily NEW cases (since beginning of pandemic) :
(Source : https://dashboard.covid19.data.gouv.fr/ )



DATETOTAL CUMUL.
NB. of CASES.
(+ DAILY Nb)​TOTAL CUMUL. 
NB. of Deceased. 
(+ DAILY Nb)Comments01/09/2020286007 (+ 4982)30661 (+ 26)02/09/2020293024 (+ 7017)30686 (+ 25)03/09/2020300181 (+ 7157)30706 (+ 20)04/09/2020309156 (+ *8975*)30724 (+ 18) **** *Former* *Former* RECORD Nb of NEW CASES ****04/09/2020309156 (+ 8975)30686 (- 20) ( Nb of deceased changed ! )05/09/2020317706 (+ 8550)30698 (+ 12)06/09/2020 (Dim.)324777 (+ 7071)30701 (+ 03)07/09/2020328980 (+ 4203)30726 (+ 25)08/09/2020335524 (+ 6544)30764 (+ 38)09/09/2020344101 (+ 8577)30794 (+ 30) **** 5th highest Nb of new cases ****10/09/2020353944 (+ *9843*)30813 (+ 19)**** * Former *RECORD Nb of NEW CASES ****11/09/2020363350 (+ 9406)30893 (*+* *80*)**** 3rd highest Nb of new cases ****12/08/2020373911 (+ *10561*)30910 (+ 17)**** *NEW *RECORD Nb of NEW CASES ****13/08/2020 (Dim.)381094 (+ 7183)30916 (+ 06)14/08/2020387252 (+ 6158)30950 (+ 34)15/08/2020395104 (+ 7852)
30999 (+ 49)
...

(NB: Previous "record" was on 31st of March with +7578 new cases)


...

Also, what does a french second wave look like ? : (bottom left)







.


----------



## ledbetter

Maybe France’s increase is due to holidays? Also I’ve been watching Le tour and see bystanders without masks. And the director tested positive. When they end up in Paris, then it will really spread just in time for the French Open with fans. It seems like some people are trying too hard pretending it’s not as serious as it is.


----------



## coffeecup66

ledbetter said:


> Maybe France’s increase is due to holidays? Also I’ve been watching _*Le tour*_ and see bystanders without masks. And the director tested positive. When they end up in Paris, then it will really spread just in time for the _*French Open*_ with fans. It seems like some people are trying too hard pretending it’s not as serious as it is.


You can cure COVID-19 most of the time (apparently) but you still can't cure Stupid.


----------



## Poppy

Greta said:


> So things have opened up again around here. We had record numbers in the channel under the bridge and out in the bay for a Trump boat parade this past weekend. It was quite the spectacle! My favorite watering hole is back open with certain restrictions imposed by the state - masks unless you're seated. Yes, I know it seems (is?) stupid. But if the bar doesn't enforce it, they can be shut down (they are told). Time will tell if the Health Dept will be coming around and actually checking. Meanwhile though... the regulars are so grateful to be back that they are more than happy to comply and more than happy to help enforce. Only one or two people have been jerks. Everyone has been awesome. And THAT is why it's my favorite watering hole - the regular patrons. We want to keep our place open. And seriously - stay in your seat, take your mask off, enjoy!! It's kinda no big deal!


Greta, 
There's so much that you say here that reminds me of a local bar, with the attitude of "Cheers" the TV show.

There's a dive bar on Greenwood Lake NY that I really enjoyed going to for a couple of years during the summer, that unfortunately has closed and is unlikely to re-open. I imagine, they too, the patrons, would keep their distance and follow the rules, and otherwise continue to carry on. It had two sets of double doors on one wall that were always open to the deck, and another on another wall. It was almost like outdoors in the shade.

I'm an ELK, and was told that the members have been meeting Friday nights in our covered, out-door picnic area, and that it is so strange to see members, who would normally be sitting shoulder to shoulder, laughing, and back slapping, instead, sitting one or maybe two to each of 15 picnic tables, which are spread out. I haven't been there since March, except once with a friend to go kayaking (the ELKS lodge has 200 foot frontage on a slow moving river that opens into a nice lake.)

This virus has really taken a toll around here. My daughter told me yesterday that the NY Hilton in midtown Manhattan closed. 
Restaurants are now allowed 25% capacity indoor seating, and many or most have some out door seating. When winter comes, if the indoor capacity isn't increased, how will they survive?

But Greta, back to you, I am really happy for you that you and your cohorts are able to gather once again, and enjoys each other's company, while still being covid safe.
Stay well.
Poppy


----------



## chillinn

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> Different strokes for different folks. Right, chillinn?



That doesn't fly. Not wearing a mask is one step short of coughing or sneezing on someone, another step short of spitting on them instead. Well, I guess if some people think the virus is a hoax, they can be excused, right? No. Not really. I prefer others at least three steps away from spitting on me. Any closer, and I get paranoid thinking I might be spit on.


----------



## turbodog

Poppy said:


> Greta,
> ... When winter comes, if the indoor capacity isn't increased, how will they survive?
> 
> ...




If they are like some of my clients they are getting deferrals from their lenders. If that fails or runs out, barring subsidies from gov't, they file bankruptcy.

Gov't is going to have to prop up some industries or they will completely go under as an entire class of business, types which the larger economy relies on under normal circumstances.

Particular client I mention has revenues that are down ~90%. His break even point, like most, is much much higher than that. He estimates that business won't reach break even till fall 2021.


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

chillinn said:


> That doesn't fly. Not wearing a mask is one step short of coughing or sneezing on someone, another step short of spitting on them instead. Well, I guess if some people think the virus is a hoax, they can be excused, right? No. Not really. I prefer others at least three steps away from spitting on me. Any closer, and I get paranoid thinking I might be spit on.


 
Yeah, I knew you wouldn't extend the sentiment to others when you posted it. Different strokes for you, but not for others.


----------



## chillinn

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> Yeah, I knew you wouldn't extend the sentiment to others when you posted it. Different strokes for you, but not for others.



Chauncey Gardiner you are stating falsehoods. If there is a mandate that everyone wears a mask, then everyone wears a mask except narcissists. The purpose of your mask is to protect others from you. You're saying it is morally permissible to not wear a mask in public with "different strokes," as though anyone can do anything they like. You like infecting kids with compromised immune systems and the elderly? What has gotten in to you Chauncey Gardiner.


----------



## bykfixer

Looks like Cali has a whopping lead in case numbers with Florida racing for the lead. That's cases. 

The deadly places based on population it looks like NJ is the place with the most per million people with New York second. With Massechusetts and Conneticut 3rd and 4th it appears the north east of America has the most deaths. 

I'll speculate and say population density plays a role. Combined with an aged population. The surprise to me is that Florida is not worse off due to the population being so many seasoned citizens. Meanwhile the once 50th most cases had been in Hawaii for quite a while, but they seem to be having an explosion despite tight lock downs. Kinda strange how it is all shaking out over time.


----------



## Greta

chillinn said:


> Chauncey Gardiner you are stating falsehoods. If there is a mandate that everyone wears a mask, then everyone wears a mask except narcissists. The purpose of your mask is to protect others from you. You're saying it is morally permissible to not wear a mask in public with "different strokes," as though anyone can do anything they like. You like infecting kids with compromised immune systems and the elderly? What has gotten in to you Chauncey Gardiner.



Chillinn - I think you really need to take a step back from this. Different people have different opinions. Thus... "different strokes". You cannot assume that either one of you is correct or incorrect. Please choose to agree to disagree... as Chauncey Gardiner has. Let this go now.


----------



## Poppy

bykfixer said:


> Looks like Cali has a whopping lead in case numbers with Florida racing for the lead. That's cases.
> 
> The deadly places based on population it looks like NJ is the place with the most per million people with New York second. With Massechusetts and Conneticut 3rd and 4th it appears the north east of America has the most deaths.
> 
> I'll speculate and say population density plays a role. Combined with an aged population. The surprise to me is that Florida is not worse off due to the population being so many seasoned citizens. Meanwhile the once 50th most cases had been in Hawaii for quite a while, but they seem to be having an explosion despite tight lock downs. Kinda strange how it is all shaking out over time.


Undoubtedly, population density has a huge impact on the rate of spread of the disease. NJ is the most populously dense state in the nation. We have a lot of "snow birds" and many many nursing homes, and assisted living condos. I think that the comparatively high rate of deaths in NJ occurred due to the exceptionally high death rate in the nursing and assisted living homes.

Honestly, I was surprised that Florida's death rate didn't outrun NJ's. 

My Dad is a snow bird, and was disappointed that many snow birds flew home early May, and he had no one to play with. He was very careful, and didn't leave his house but maybe once a month. I don't know what the percentage of old folks who live in Florida are snow birds, but according to my Dad, in his area it is pretty high.

A lot of people around here, brought their Florida seniors home.

I don't know what the number of nursing home residents are in either state, nor how they compare, but I know of a number of people who "allowed" their parents to live in Florida, but when they couldn't take care of themselves adequately anymore, they brought them back up here. Maybe to live with them, or to put them in a nearby nursing home, so visiting is more convenient. This has been the trend for years, and may explain the high numbers of NJ nursing homes. We have 17 in my community, and we are only 10-15 miles from NYC.

Florida didn't get hit hard with the virus, until after NY and NJ had the worst experience in the nation. Perhaps they learned from NY, and didn't allow covid patients to be admitted, or returned to nursing homes. Perhaps they did a better job, at keeping the virus out of nursing homes. They were months behind NY and NJ, and whereas, NY and NJ didn't have ANY testing until they were already in full swing, Florida DID have testing available when it started to show up there.


----------



## markr6

bykfixer said:


> I'll speculate and say population density plays a role.



Absolutely. Michigan is a great example. You have Wayne and Oakland County (Detroit, major airport with everyone and their brother from around the world coming and going). Then you have the rest of the state, especially the UP. Ever been up there? Not a whole lot of anything going on especially to the west. 30,000+ cases in Wayne Co. vs 6 cases in Baraga Co.

7.5B people. I feel like the planet is just busting at the seams and nature is simply saying "GTFO!!!"


----------



## ledbetter

Average of 40,000 new cases per day and 1000 deaths, and this is before the flu season and cold weather where many are forced indoors. This may be the calm before the storm. It’s disturbing that America has so little cohesion, faith in science, and disrespect for the common good.


----------



## idleprocess

ledbetter said:


> Average of 40,000 new cases per day and 1000 deaths, and this is before the flu season and cold weather where many are forced indoors. This may be the calm before the storm. It’s disturbing that America has so little cohesion, faith in science, and disrespect for the common good.



I'm expecting about another year of this, myself. Suspect I'll make the most of the relative lull but otherwise brace myself for another year of the isolation of working from home and rarely venturing out of my neighborhood.


----------



## Monocrom

In local news, schools recently re-opened in New York. And according to the Department of Education, two teachers in two separate Brooklyn schools have now tested positive for the virus. Recently, a massive group of teens and young adults had a rave in Washington Square park. No masks, no social distancing. Just massive amounts of obnoxiousness and stupidity on display for the world to see.

Which ironically, seems to take place in Washington Square park every decade or so. Anyone else remember the mass celebrations by Muslims in that park literally hours after the planes crashed into the twin towers 19 years ago today? I do. I also remember how Muslim leaders very quickly stepped in and ushered them out of the park and told them to stop openly celebrating because their behavior was going to cause mass, violent rioting. 

In another move guaranteed to make sure the virus lingers on much longer than it should, Malls in New York are scheduled to re-opened on September 30th. Makes you wonder, if the virus were self-aware and conscious of what's going on because of it; would it likely be very confused as to how a species as utterly stupid, reckless, and self-centered as Humanity could become the dominant one of this planet? Would it wonder about that? Can't even sacrifice a few months of drinking, partying, and having a good time to be rid of it. Well, except for the people living in New Zealand who have been infection-free for quite awhile now because they understood the meaning of the word "sacrifice."


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Monocrom said:


> Well, except for the people living in New Zealand who have been infection-free for quite awhile now because they understood the meaning of the word "sacrifice."


Nonsense. NZ has a huge advantage to the rest of the US with the exception of Hawaii they have about 4 million people on an Island and closed down everyone coming in quarantining them for weeks and they still have an occasional person sneak in with the virus and have to track everyone down quickly. There is a lot less places for people to go there while someone in NYC can fly to CA and spread the virus then hop to another few states over the weeks and spread it more. There is just no way to totally stop travel here and we have about 80 times as many people to deal with compared to NZ.


----------



## bykfixer

I like how China "says" they're _still _at 85k cases and have tested 160 million people. Uh huh, yeah. 
And mysteriously North Korea has none………
Hmmmm


----------



## coffeecup66

Monocrom said:


> ... except for the people living in New Zealand who have been *infection-free* for quite awhile now because they understood the meaning of the word "sacrifice."




"*infection-free*"? Yeah, sure ! At the least, that is a big misrepresentation.



May I suggest a refreshing bit of entertainment, direct from Auckland ?

So, a chap sets out to adapt an adaptor. While doing this, he proceeds to tell a little anecdotal story.

You could call this "Piggy & the Pandemic". It's just NZ reality I suppose.

You can start it at 2:00. 

Interesting thing happens at about 13:03, you hear a short drum roll & rim shot: it's his phone...


NB: This is New Zealand, his language can sometimes be a bit colorful. I love it.

.

(Video published September 10th 2020, YT)


"_And the sound of Te Awamutu had a truly sacred ring_", 
-Neil Finn.


Cheers.


----------



## mightysparrow

An article published at the New England Journal of Medicine website in August summarizes why the Covid-19 strategies implemented in New Zealand were, in fact, much more effective than similar measures in the United States. The authors of the article state that New Zealand authorities expected rapid community spread of the virus, due to the large number of tourists and students who visit the country during the time when the virus took hold in the country. The nation's leaders therefore chose an elimination strategy, rather than simply a containment strategy, to keep the infection and death rate as low as possible. 

The article states that the stringent, nation-wide border shutdown and mandatory home confinement orders were very effective in rapidly diminishing community transmission of the virus. In addition, the empathetic and understanding responses of the Prime Minister and other national officials to the hardships endured by the citizens in order to implement and enforce the national orders was very helpful in ensuring the widespread compliance with the orders that was necessary for the various measures to be effective. The leaders of the country explained and emphasized to the citizens why it was important to follow the mandates. A new spending program by the government also made up for some of the income lost by businesses and citizens. In fact, compliance with the national orders was so extensive that they were very effective, even though mass masking was not included in the national mandates. The authors state, however, that masking should be a part of the national plan now, in order to maintain the effectiveness of the virus suppression in the country.

So, even though there are geographic and population differences between the USA and New Zealand that might account for part of the difference in the infection and deaths counts in the two countries, the authors of the above article believe it was the measures undertaken by the national government in New Zealand, the empathetic response of its leaders, and the comprehensive, nationwide compliance with the national mandates by its citizens that enabled New Zealand to have a much lower death rate than the USA, and also to recover quickly from the initial wave of Covid-19 infection that hit New Zealand. In the USA, the social distancing policies were in most cases recommendations, not mandates, or were mandates that were not enforced, and all such policies were enacted on a state-by-state, locality-by-locality manner that differed from place to place. The level of compliance by citizens was much lower in the USA, also, in part because the leaders of the country encouraged the citizens to ignore the leaders' recommendations immediately after issuing them.

It's an irrefutable fact at this point, given what we know of Covid-19, that if a smaller percentage of the population chooses to obey distancing guidelines, or wear a mask, those measures will be less successful in reducing the spread of infection and death rates from Covid-19.


----------



## bykfixer

Americans don't take well to being corraled for long periods. Mandates or not, they just don't. 
The phrase 'Land of the Free, Home of the Brave' are more than just words to a huge segment of the American population. 

Now combine that with school shutdowns in March, working from home (in near isolation at times) and you get a very restless crowd. Cops shutting down back yard barbecues along with the entertainment industry being stifled in a country with the freedoms that population is used to and you will have rebellion. Not just the young either. I know a bunch of seniors who say "this aint living" and they too are just as frustrated about the deal. 

America is unique in the world and at times they show the rest of the world how things should be done. Yet there are times America shows the world "perhaps this aint the way it should be done".


----------



## Lynx_Arc

mightysparrow said:


> An article published at the New England Journal of Medicine website in August summarizes why the Covid-19 strategies implemented in New Zealand were, in fact, much more effective than similar measures in the United States. The authors of the article state that New Zealand authorities expected rapid community spread of the virus, due to the large number of tourists and students who visit the country during the time when the virus took hold in the country. The nations leaders therefore chose an elimination strategy, rather than simply a containment strategy, to keep the infection and death rate as low as possible.
> 
> The article states that the stringent, nation-wide border shutdown and mandatory home confinement orders were very effective in rapidly diminishing community transmission of the virus. In addition, the empathetic and understanding responses of the Prime Minister and other national officials to the hardships endured by the citizens in order to implement and enforce the national orders was very helpful in ensuring the widespread compliance with the orders that was necessary for the various measures to be effective. A new spending program by the government also made up for some of the income lost by businesses and citizens. In fact, compliance with the national orders was so extensive that they were very effective, even though mass masking was not included in the national mandates. The authors state, however, that masking should be a part of the national plan now, in order to maintain the effectiveness of the virus suppression in the country.
> 
> So, even though there are geographic and population differences between the USA and New Zealand that might account for part of the difference in the infection and deaths counts in the two countries, the authors of the above article believe it was the measures undertaken by the national government in New Zealand, the empathetic response of its leaders, and the comprehensive, nationwide compliance with the national mandates by its citizens that enabled New Zealand to have a much lower death rate than the USA, and also to recover quickly from the initial wave of Covid-19 infection that hit New Zealand. In the USA, the social distancing policies were in most cases recommendations, not mandates, or were mandates that were not enforced, and all such policies were enacted on a state-by-state, locality-by-locality manner that differed from place to place. The level of compliance by citizens was much lower in the USA, also.
> 
> It's an irrefutable fact at this point, given what we know of Covid-19, that if a smaller percentage of the population chooses to obey distancing guidelines, or wear a mask, those measures will be less successful in reducing the spread of infection and death rates from Covid-19.


Too bad they are still having to lockdown the country because of infections costing their economy dearly to "look good" vs the virus. I read somewhere that they have spent about 7.8 million per year of life "saved" now there. I don't "buy" the masks bit works anywhere near as well as people advertised as we are seeing states and cities where masks are mandated and the infection rates are not going down at all. I don't think they really know if the masks truly help they just don't have anything else to "try" and use any statistics that they can that seems to "prove" they work and other statistics can also be used to "prove" they don't IMO.
Arkansas mandated masks statewide in July and the stats show the infection rates are still increasing since then while we don't have mandatory masks here in my state but some of the cities do and our stats aren't increasing but flat. Using those two statistics masks seem to be either doing nothing or making things worse logically speaking.


----------



## mightysparrow

The scientific evidence is accumulating: face masks do reduce the transmission of the virus and offer some protection for the wearer, too. See, e.g., 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/face-m...he-scientific-evidence-is-growing-11595083298
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2768533
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11606-020-06067-8
https://www.pnas.org/content/117/26/14857


----------



## Poppy

mightysparrow said:


> An article published at the New England Journal of Medicine website in August <BIG SNIP>
> The leaders of the country explained and emphasized to the citizens why it was important to follow the mandates. A new spending program by the government also made up for some of the income lost by businesses and citizens. In fact, compliance with the national orders was so extensive that they were very effective, even though mass masking was not included in the national mandates. The authors state, however, that masking should be a part of the national plan now, in order to maintain the effectiveness of the virus suppression in the country.
> 
> <MORE SNIP>
> 
> It's an irrefutable fact at this point, given what we know of Covid-19, that if a smaller percentage of the population chooses to obey distancing guidelines, or wear a mask, those measures will be less successful in reducing the spread of infection and death rates from Covid-19.



For the first few months of the pandemic I followed New York's Gov. Cuomo's daily update. He gave information and reasons for the mandates he proposed. He used graphs to show how things were getting worse. And when they were getting better he used graphs, and gave the credit to the populace for doing the right thing and working together to save each other. "That is the SMART thing to do"... "We are New York Smart!"He pleaded with the populace to listen to the reasoning. He understood that there were hardships, and asked that they endure them, and continued with a mantra, that we are New York Strong. New York Smart! He tried to build a community feeling that we are looking out for each other. We are a team. We have to work together. It worked! It was recognized that if there was wide spread civil disobedience that the police could not contain it and that it was imperative that the populace help to contain it.

The civic duty was placed on the populace to be smart and to adhere to the direction of their leaders who are paying attention to the science.

Overall, so far it worked.
New York, and New Jersey are now doing pretty well regarding the rate of spread of the virus. Financially they need help. It's my understanding that NYC still has opportunists rioting and looting. It's above my pay grade on how to deal with that.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

mightysparrow said:


> The scientific evidence is accumulating: face masks do reduce the transmission of the virus and offer some protection for the wearer, too. See, e.g.,
> 
> https://www.wsj.com/articles/face-m...he-scientific-evidence-is-growing-11595083298
> https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2768533
> https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11606-020-06067-8
> https://www.pnas.org/content/117/26/14857


I could post links too.... that say the opposite. I contend if the crappy masks sold around town is a cash grab because they aren't good enough for health professionals who with better masks still get infected. I strongly recommend distancing because masks give people a false sense of security and they don't KEEP YOU SAFE otherwise there would be NO need for ALL the health professionals to STRONGLY recommend distancing EVEN WHEN WEARING A MASK!


----------



## Hooked on Fenix

Poppy said:


> Overall, so far it worked.
> New York, and New Jersey are now doing pretty well regarding the rate of spread of the virus. Financially they need help. It's my understanding that NYC still has opportunists rioting and looting. It's above my pay grade on how to deal with that.



I disagree. Cuomo's decision to put corona virus patients in nursing homes has people calling him a mass murderer. He demonized and fired those he needed to keep law and order. The rioting and looting is his fault. His chances of getting federal money to deal with the problem are a snowball's chance in hell after painting a mural in front of Trump Tower and threatening the president that he'd need an army with him to safely walk down the streets of NYC. If you need help, you don't bite the hand that feeds you. New York needs new leadership that doesn't scare away all the rich people. They have more dollars than sense.


----------



## raggie33

i think we can all agree adam sandler is awful. this dont much have to do with corona .he just bothers me. far as corona im still wearing mask. sadly most days i get almost to store to see i forgot my mask. i walk all the way back home.


----------



## turbodog

Hooked on Fenix said:


> I disagree. Cuomo's decision to put corona virus patients in nursing homes has people calling him a mass murderer. He demonized and fired those he needed to keep law and order. The rioting and looting is his fault. His chances of getting federal money to deal with the problem are a snowball's chance in hell after painting a mural in front of Trump Tower and threatening the president that he'd need an army with him to safely walk down the streets of NYC. If you need help, you don't bite the hand that feeds you. New York needs new leadership that doesn't scare away all the rich people. They have more dollars than sense.




*You mean where he asked homes if they could properly isolate, clean, prevent, and care for sick residents, and they said yes?*

From ny times: "Mr. Cuomo and health officials said that under existing regulations, the homes could turn patients away if they were unable to safely care for them."

I watched the press conference on this very issue when it was unfolding months ago.


----------



## scout24

Let's bring it back around, folks. Politics belong elsewhere...


----------



## chillinn

scout24 said:


> Let's bring it back around, folks. Politics belong elsewhere...



You got my vote! 

Has anyone seen this



elemental.medium.com said:


> Earlier this summer, the Summit supercomputer at Oak Ridge National Lab in Tennessee set about crunching data on more than 40,000 genes from 17,000 genetic samples in an effort to better understand Covid-19. Summit is the second-fastest computer in the world, but the process — which involved analyzing 2.5 billion genetic combinations — still took more than a week.
> 
> When Summit was done, researchers analyzed the results. It was, in the words of Dr. Daniel Jacobson, lead researcher and chief scientist for computational systems biology at Oak Ridge, a “eureka moment.” The computer had revealed a new theory about how Covid-19 impacts the body: the bradykinin hypothesis. The hypothesis provides a model that explains many aspects of Covid-19, including some of its most bizarre symptoms. It also suggests 10-plus potential treatments, many of which are already FDA approved. Jacobson’s group published their results in a paper in the journal eLife in early July.
> 
> According to the team’s findings, a Covid-19 infection generally begins when the virus enters the body through ACE2 receptors in the nose, (The receptors, which the virus is known to target, are abundant there.) The virus then proceeds through the body, entering cells in other places where ACE2 is also present: the intestines, kidneys, and heart. This likely accounts for at least some of the disease’s cardiac and GI symptoms.
> 
> But once Covid-19 has established itself in the body, things start to get really interesting....


----------



## chillinn

nevermind, thanks mods.

I sure would like to visit cpfunderground.com [50.62.133.78] but I get a "SSL_ERROR_BAD_CERT_DOMAIN" error, and if I ignore that, I get a "too many redirects" error I can't get beyond.


----------



## Empath

chillinn said:


> nevermind, thanks mods.
> 
> 
> 
> I sure would like to visit cpfunderground.com [50.62.133.78] but I get a "SSL_ERROR_BAD_CERT_DOMAIN" error, and if I ignore that, I get a "too many redirects" error I can't get beyond.



I can't say for sure what the problem is, but if I attempt to go to that same link, it happens to me too.

Try going to https://www.cpfunderground.com/index.html . See if that gets you there.


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## turbodog

http://www.redirect-checker.org/index.php

Off topic... but whatever.

I have same issue.


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## chillinn

Empath said:


> I can't say for sure what the problem is, but if I attempt to go to that same link, it happens to me too.
> 
> Try going to https://www.cpfunderground.com/index.html . See if that gets you there.



Thanks, that did the trick. Bookmarked.

That's weird. index.html should load by default. Whomever is webadminning that webserver should probably clean up webroot... just a guess. 

Edit: I think my guess is wrong, but here is help in the first answer, even if the question is unrelated. Seems to be a configuration issue. Forward link to the webadmin with a description of the issue.


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## nbp

I honestly have no idea what the point of the conversation between Admin and another member was, but it was derailing the thread. Several posts deleted. PMs preferred. Thanks.


----------



## bykfixer

My former boss and the guy who runs the contract I now work for both nearly died this summer from Covid-19 like symptoms. Both were in ICU at one point. One was on a ventalator. 
Neither tested positive for the corona virus. After multiple checks. 

They live 500 miles apart. Both were healthy 70 something year olds. Doctors in both cases shrugged their shoulders. "Must be flu?" they said. But flu season in my area is long over. Is there a new strain they don't know about? Studies in the 1990's has shown there were 3 distinct strains of the flu known as Spanish flu. The first one bypassed old people. The thinking is they were immune due to a flu in 1890 that morphed into the Spanish flu. It was the third strain that killed older people. Normally it takes a virus a few years to morph into a new strain, but studies show the Spanish flu morphed twice in one year. 

New studies are showing lots of people have "T-Cells" that make them immune to Covid-19. That is great news and shows why so many people suffer little to no effects from it. It also shows the human race will manage to survive another pandemic. Hopefully everybody reading this will be a part of that.

Caution: lots of dry reading
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-08-clues-successful-immune-response-cells.html


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## PhotonWrangler

Interesting reading. Thanks for sharing this, bykfixer.


----------



## Monocrom

So, you guys remember those young "geniuses" I mentioned previously? The ones who decided to party it up in Washing Square park, shoulder-to-shoulder, no masks? This should come as no surprise.... a good number of them were obviously NYU students. Six are now confirmed infected. Causing NYU itself to enforce quarantine on 400 residents of the university dorms. 

It's funny.... a young woman in NYC needs to get a license in order to braid hair in exchange for money. Yes, a license. But any two individuals with different body parts can get together, create another person, do a garbage job of raising that new person, and that's considered perfectly acceptable. Grows up a bit, goes to a University, doesn't have the mental capacity to _*not*_ risk getting infected during a deadly planetary pandemic in which they could pass the virus onto others. Some of whom could die. 

Age old issue of older generation looking down on a younger generation. And in the past you could say it was silly. What did the older generations used to complain about? Didn't like the younger generation's clothing style, music, perhaps a bit of lax morals that the older generation found distasteful or maybe even offensive? But basically minor complaints. Yeah, that's all changed. Now the complaint is, they couldn't give up one Summer of partying and getting drunk. Got themselves infected with a deadly virus, and got others infected too! 

Act stupid, get yourself infected, don't care because you think this virus is a joke. Walk around.... if you get others infected who are trying their best to stay safe, and they die; you're responsible for killing them. You absolutely are.


----------



## chillinn

This study in Nature Microbiology is pretty fascinating. The study makes abundantly clear without saying so that it is impossible that SARS-CoV-2 originated in any lab, Chinese or otherwise. Novel coronavirus apparently evolved from other bat viruses decades ago. But the study also brings some possible bad news to come.



> ...Of importance for future spillover events is the appreciation that SARS-CoV-2 has emerged from the same horseshoe bat subgenus that harbours SARS-like coronaviruses. Another similarity between SARS-CoV and SARS-CoV-2 is their divergence time (40–70 years ago) from currently known extant bat virus lineages. This long divergence period suggests there are unsampled virus lineages circulating in horseshoe bats that have zoonotic potential due to the ancestral position of the human-adapted contact residues in the SARS-CoV-2 RBD. Without better sampling, however, it is impossible to estimate whether or how many of these additional lineages exist. While there is involvement of other mammalian species—specifically pangolins for SARS-CoV-2—as a plausible conduit for transmission to humans, there is no evidence that pangolins are facilitating adaptation to humans. A hypothesis of snakes as intermediate hosts of SARS-CoV-2 was posited during the early epidemic phase54, but we found no evidence of this....
> 
> All three approaches to removal of recombinant genomic segments point to a single ancestral lineage for SARS-CoV-2 and RaTG13. Two other bat viruses (CoVZXC21 and CoVZC45) from Zhejiang Province fall on this lineage as recombinants of the RaTG13/SARS-CoV-2 lineage and the clade of Hong Kong bat viruses sampled between 2005 and 2007. Specifically, progenitors of the RaTG13/SARS-CoV-2 lineage appear to have recombined with the Hong Kong clade (with inferred breakpoints at 11.9 and 20.8 kb) to form the CoVZXC21/CoVZC45-lineage. Sibling lineages to RaTG13/SARS-CoV-2 include a pangolin sequence sampled in Guangdong Province in March 2019 and a clade of pangolin sequences from Guangxi Province sampled in 2017....




I reversed the order of these quoted paragraphs, which are several paragraphs apart. Read the article. It is fascinating and includes some nice tables and figures.

tl;dr: there may be other unknown coronviruses lurking in horseshoe bats in China.


----------



## turbodog

Yes. This is why we fund research.


----------



## Dave D

:thumbsup:


----------



## raggie33

once again dogs are heros https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2020/09/22/coronavirus-sniffing-dogs-helsinki-airport-finland/


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## Monocrom

For those who missed it, we've officially reached *200,000* confirmed dead from Covid-19 in America. 

I would have provided a link to a reputable news source but couldn't find one. (A reputable news source that is, that simply reported on the facts alone.)


----------



## chillinn

Monocrom said:


> For those who missed it, we've officially reached *200,000* confirmed dead from Covid-19 in America.



This is disgusting, and the prediction is 400K dead Americans by 2021. Should have only been 30K, but for one incompetant narcissist. Don't call that politics, mods; it is fact, and everyone needs to accept it and accept if they had some small fractional part in it. This should not have happened. It should not continue to happen. I am livid. You should be, too.


----------



## raggie33

chillinn said:


> This is disgusting, and the prediction is 400K dead Americans by 2021. Should have only been 30K, but for one incompetant narcissist. Don't call that politics, mods; it is fact, and everyone needs to accept it and accept if they had some small fractional part in it. This should not have happened. It should not continue to happen. I am livid. You should be, too.


vote vote and dont forget to get everyone to vote .


----------



## Monocrom

Like I said.... couldn't find one that concentrated on the facts alone. Honestly, if influential individuals on both sides of politics could put their equally hate-filled bickering aside and do what needs to be done for the betterment of EVERYONE, this virus would have burned itself out months ago. But I guess that's asking too much from Humanity.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

chillinn said:


> This is disgusting, and the prediction is 400K dead Americans by 2021. Should have only been 30K, but for one incompetant narcissist. Don't call that politics, mods; it is fact, and everyone needs to accept it and accept if they had some small fractional part in it. This should not have happened. It should not continue to happen. I am livid. You should be, too.


Sure beats 2 million dead.


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## chillinn

Allow me to delete that entirely.


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## archimedes

This thread is being derailed again by, yes, politics.

It needs to stay on track, or another pause will be taken here.

As always, I remind you all are welcome to move that aspect of your discussion to the CPF Underground.


----------



## raggie33

archimedes said:


> This thread is being derailed again by, yes, politics.
> 
> It needs to stay on track, or another pause will be taken here.
> 
> As always, I remind you all are welcome to move that aspect of your discussion to the CPF Underground.



im not brave enough for the ug. im to darn sensitive.


----------



## Kestrel

chillinn said:


> No offense, but you are delusional. [...]


For point of record the 'no offense' preamble doesn't magically make these sorts of direct personal attacks permissible in the forums.
Thank you in advance & best regards,


----------



## SCEMan

Monocrom said:


> Honestly, if influential individuals on both sides of politics could put their equally hate-filled bickering aside and do what needs to be done for the betterment of EVERYONE, this virus would have burned itself out months ago. But I guess that's asking too much from Humanity.



Might have been nice if China stopped all Wuhan province & international flights in December when health officials were told that a new coronavirus is causing the illness.


----------



## chillinn

Kestrel said:


> For point of record the 'no offense' preamble doesn't magically make these sorts of direct personal attacks permissible in the forums.
> Thank you in advance & best regards,



Personal attack unintended, used a manner of speaking, but I see now that came off far too wrong, and course you are right. I apologize to the board and to Monocrom. I will rephrase.


----------



## bykfixer

I remember a while ago lots of people saying they were hoping for a vaccine soon. Now many of those same people are saying aint no way they'll get the vaccine. I'll get one eventually but my thoughts are same as buying the first model year of a car……I'll wait a little to see if there are bugs in the system.


----------



## Monocrom

SCEMan said:


> Might have been nice if China stopped all Wuhan province & international flights in December when health officials were told that a new coronavirus is causing the illness.



Absolutely! Do what's best for everyone. But....
sometimes it's individuals doing what is best for themselves. Sometimes you get a Nation only thinking of their own self interests. Just another example of how things are.


----------



## bigburly912

bykfixer said:


> I remember a while ago lots of people saying they were hoping for a vaccine soon. Now many of those same people are saying aint no way they'll get the vaccine. I'll get one eventually but my thoughts are same as buying the first model year of a car……I'll wait a little to see if there are bugs in the system.



Ever seen I Am Legend?


----------



## chillinn

The anti-science, anti-education, pro-conspiracy theory element in our society cannot be silenced... but we can ignore them, and if they refuse vaccination, for the sake of herd immunity, we can legislate against them, and fine them, which will coax them to accept a preventative medicine that is infinitely less dangerous and damaging to them than all the fast food, soda and alcohol they willfully consume.


----------



## Monocrom

bigburly912 said:


> Ever seen I Am Legend?



That's a movie. A very entertaining one, and Charlton Heston did it better with "The Omega Man" in 1971 based on the very same novella, but still a movie. bykfixer has an excellent point though, and obviously things can go horribly wrong with a vaccine. Still, not to the level of what took place in both films. There will be brave individuals willing to be first. And, I honestly salute them for it. Though I doubt a vaccine would turn us into zombie/vampire hybrids. I will be waiting to see what happens to that first batch of brave individuals before I get a shot.


----------



## chillinn

Monocrom said:


> obviously things can go horribly wrong with a vaccine.



Respectfully, name one instance of this ever occurring, please, unless you are referring to some adverse reaction in 0.00032% of the population.


----------



## bigburly912

Monocrom said:


> That's a movie. A very entertaining one, and Charlton Heston did it better with "The Omega Man" in 1971 based on the very same novella, but still a movie. bykfixer has an excellent point though, and obviously things can go horribly wrong with a vaccine. Still, not to the level of what took place in both films. There will be brave individuals willing to be first. And, I honestly salute them for it. Though I doubt a vaccine would turn us into zombie/vampire hybrids. I will be waiting to see what happens to that first batch of brave individuals before I get a shot.



Dear lord son did you think I was being serious?


----------



## Monocrom

bigburly912 said:


> Dear lord son did you think I was being serious?



Considering this topic, it was a fair assumption. 
Glad to hear you weren't.


----------



## Kestrel

chillinn said:


> Respectfully, name one instance of this ever occurring, please, unless you are referring to some adverse reaction in 0.00032% of the population.





Wikipedia said:


> *The Cutter Incident*
> [...] The mistake produced 120,000 doses of polio vaccine that contained live polio virus. Of children who received the vaccine, 40,000 developed abortive poliomyelitis (a form of the disease that does not involve the central nervous system), 56 developed paralytic poliomyelitis—and of these, five children died from polio.[2]​ The exposures led to an epidemic of polio in the families and communities of the affected children, resulting in a further 113 people paralyzed and 5 deaths. [...]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutter_Laboratories#Cutter_incident

Not going to bother with working out percentages, but a defective vaccine causing 40,000 cases of disease is not insignificant.

No dog in this fight, just wanted to throw that out there since there was a query.


----------



## Kestrel

chillinn said:


> [...] fwiw, I am anti-partisan and pro-liberty... yet not libertarian, as it inevitably must lead to tragedy of the commons, and, ultimately, socialism. I am left of center, but I miss Sen. McCain immensely, and have no idea how he did not win his Party's nomination in 2016. That is who his Party needs, someone like McCain, military background, impeccable morals, with a strong backbone, and yet... a lot younger. Or someone like Eisenhower, but younger. Find them and fix the Party this one guy and tea libertarians have shattered. Apparently, there will be plenty of time on the outside of power to accomplish this. I'll be waiting. tl;dr don't care who is in power, as long as they are competent and honest, and not greedily self-serving, shallow, and xenophobic.


The post above serves as the very last political post for this thread, among other things. Period.


----------



## chillinn

Kestrel said:


> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutter_Laboratories#Cutter_incident
> 
> Not going to bother with working out percentages, but a defective vaccine causing 40,000 cases of disease is not insignificant.
> 
> No dog in this fight, just wanted to throw that out there since there was a query.



This can't be used as an example and I will explain some of it, and trust you will do due diligence to convince yourself, learn the details, and understand that this can not possibly be representative of all vaccine. 

There are complicated reasons why the two polio vaccines, in particular, have issues that other vaccines would not, and it has to do with, on the one hand, one polio vaccine containing live polio virus and the other containing dead polio virus, and on the other hand, what level of advancement the regional society is where vaccinations being given. The vaccine containing live virus is more dangerous, yet it must be used in Third World countries at risk of outbreak or epidemic, while in First and Second World countries, the vaccine containing the dead polio virus is sufficient and more ideal. I believe it possibly has something to do with a booster shot for the vaccine with dead polio virus that needs to happen at a certain time, after 4 months, and this is unlikely to be applied in Third World countries, where individuals may not have an actual address even if they live somewhere, nor identification. The polio vaccine with the live virus does not need that booster.

I hesitate to say more because in the details I will get tripped up, but that should be enough for any to find the reasons for my first statement above, that this can not be used as an example of a general case for vaccines, because it could only be true of polio vaccines in our world of variable levels of technology, economics, and closely linked, sanitation and health care.

You can not apply this to any other vaccine as some example that, "whoa, we gotta be careful with this because of how wrong this can go," and suggesting so could would spread this false idea, causing reluctance to vaccinations. The damage that Jenny McCarthy has done is unknowable, but it is significant. We don't want that. Nothing like this could possibly happen with any of the SARS-CoV-2 vaccines, nor any other vaccine, such as measles. What is assured is that not getting vaccinated for such things as measles _causes_ unnecessary outbreaks. With the SARS-CoV-2 vaccines, when available, it is a no brainer that everyone should be vaccinated, and there is no cause to democratize this among those without scientific or biological education to weigh the risks. It makes best sense to get vaccinated as soon as possible, and if enough percentage get vaccinated, herd immunity will kick in for those that for whatever reasons did not get vaccinated. 50% won't get it done. Most need to get vaccinated for herd immunity to materialize.


----------



## bigburly912

I don’t need to speak for kestrel but you literally said “name one instance”


----------



## Poppy

chillinn said:


> The anti-science, anti-education, pro-conspiracy theory element in our society cannot be silenced... but we can ignore them, and if they refuse vaccination, for the sake of herd immunity, we can legislate against them, and fine them, which will coax them to accept a preventative medicine that is infinitely less dangerous and damaging to them than all the fast food, soda and alcohol they willfully consume.



It seems that there are new drugs on the market every few months, each of which have gone through many trials, and years of testing prior to being released into the professional medical community for prescription to a selective population. The litany of possible side effects often include things such as: death due to anaphylactic shock, heart attack, stroke, seizures, kidney, liver, or bladder dysfunction, and a litany of other complications. With thi slitany of possible side effects they are still released.

Yet, many of the side effects are not discovered, until years later. For example, prozac...


> Lilly Settles 30 Suits for $50 Million. The FDA approved *Prozac in 1987, and just a few years later, the drug had its first lawsuits. Lawsuits alleged that Eli Lilly was “grossly negligent” in its failure to properly warn doctors and consumers about potential dangers, including violent, aggressive and suicidal behavior ...*



35 years ago, aspirin sent more people to the hospital with bleeding ulcers than any other medication and resulted in a high mortality rate.

Is autism related to the DPT vaccine? Idk, I can't take a position on either side, but the argument goes on.

Forced inoculation? Are we living in NAZI Germany?

Regarding artificial immunizations and herd immunity: IF the immunization actually works, then those who are immunized have nothing to fear from those who are not.


----------



## chillinn

bigburly912 said:


> I don’t need to speak for kestrel but you literally said “name one instance”



And I rationally argued that polio is a special case and no other vaccines can compare to it. So name another instance of vaccinations going horribly wrong, as polio vaccines are not a valid general case.

And I am nearly certain Kestrel can stand up for and speak for himself. It isn't as though I have beat him up and I'm just picking on him, I really do expect him to come to the same conclusion as I have and realize that using polio vaccinations as a reason not to trust vaccinations is completely, entirely and utterly out of bounds.


----------



## Kestrel

bigburly912 said:


> I don’t need to speak for kestrel but you literally said “name one instance”


And to paraphrase one of my heroes, Charlie Munger;
":thumbsup:"

Like I said, 'No dog in this fight'; there was a prompt for information so I supplied it.
Not really a conversation topic I personally get animated about, that's all.


----------



## chillinn

Kestrel said:


> And to paraphrase one of my heroes, Charlie Munger;
> ":thumbsup:"
> 
> Like I said, 'no dog in this fight'; there was a prompt for information so I supplied it.
> Not really a conversation topic I personally get animated about, that's all.



Alright then, you may rest on the fallacy of infinite ignorance. But I still expect you to follow up in your own time about the polio vaccines, and then correct my errors, but I think I got the big picture roughly communicated almost correctly.


----------



## nbp

The main difference I see is that most of things we are vaccinated for as kids like measles, mumps, rubella, whatever, have extremely effective vaccines that essentially last a lifetime. The COVID19 vaccine is speculated to end up being about 50% effective, will likely impart immunity for a few months to a year or two based on data about other coronaviruses we contract, and the virus will probably keep mutating. So unless they can nail the strain every year with an exceptionally effective vaccine and then administer 250 million doses to Americans annually, a vaccine will not be the panacea some claim, IMO. If the flu is any indication, that’s not likely. Get used to C19, it’s part of life now.


----------



## nbp

chillinn said:


> Alright then, you may rest on the fallacy of infinite ignorance. But I still expect you to follow up in your own time about the polio vaccines, and then correct my errors, but I think I got the big picture roughly communicated almost correctly.



There were so many words I zoned out halfway through your post about polio to be honest.


----------



## Kestrel

chillinn said:


> Alright then, you may rest on the fallacy of infinite ignorance. [...]


Not sure what you /think/ you mean here, but members are only given so many opportunities for insulting CPF membership & Staff directly.


----------



## turbodog

Poppy said:


> ...
> 
> Regarding artificial immunizations and herd immunity: IF the immunization actually works, then those who are immunized have nothing to fear from those who are not.



I'm not so sure on this one. At first glance it seems correct. If you think a little further... don't know.

We know that c-19 mutates. AFAIK all mutations are still similar enough so one vaccine covers them all. So if we get enough people vaccinated it could actually be eliminated completely.

If we let a large pool of people continue to harbor the virus it could/will mutate further. Consensus from various sources say only like 40% of the US plans on taking a vaccine. If it goes far enough the vaccine could be useless. It could get more/less virulent. And so on.

In addition... if 60% of the US can catch this perpetually... the economic impact will be catastrophic.


----------



## bykfixer

Look up swine flu vaccine debacle 1976 and you can see what can go wrong. 

I have coworkers who got it and got really really sick from it. It was thought to be round 4 of the Spanish flu, unbeknown at the time that rounds 2 and 3 had already occured. Recent studies have revealed that some influenza outbreaks were strains kin to the Spanish flu. 

An outbreak at Fort Dix in the 1970's was thought to be a Spanish flu so the US government did a campaign to get everybody vaccinated in a hurry. Some shots had live virus! Some had the wrong ingredients and some people died. That's why much of the Korean War and WW2 generation said "hellnaw I aint taking a flu vaccine" after the great debacle of 1976. 

I'm a bit of a tin hat persona so I'm more concerned about micro trackers or personality alterations from government sanctioned (and required) vaccines. I was inoculated as a kid, but that was long long long before nano technologies we have today. So I'll wait in line, but at the rear……


----------



## night.hoodie

bykfixer said:


> Look up swine flu vaccine debacle 1976 and you can see what can go wrong



I didn't want to post in this thread, then I did, and post was removed. Tempers seem high, and I don't want involved. But I have been following the thread for weeks, and I found your reference, and learned something.

I just wanted to make a small point, but it may take a few cracks to make it. 

How do you think today's LED flashlights compare to LED flashlights from 15 years ago? Let me answer for you. Today's LED flashlights are hella more efficient and hella brighter.

Between 1980 and 1985, medicine had advanced further than in all the years previous. And medicine has been doing that every five years since. So between 2015 and 2020, the advancements in medicine have exceeded those in all previous years.

When your car breaks down, and your mechanic tells you that you need a new water pump, do you question him if you know absolutely nothing about internal combustion engines? 

Ignorance and fear does not, can not possibility produce better results than rational science and the compiled knowledge of man-centuries.

I'll leave you all with a couple quotes.

Pessimism is the scarecrow that fear erects in the watermelon patch of the future to frighten away the timid souls so the feast may be richer for the few who are not afraid.
-Honorable Member for Grey North, Canada 1867/68

I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
Frank Herbert


----------



## scout24

When my mechanic tells me I need a new water pump, I have the option, if not the responsibility to do my due diligence and get a second opinion. Your apparent faith in the same institutions that run your state's Department of Motor Vehicles and Veteran's healthcare facilities makes me smile.

Fancy quotes notwithstanding.


----------



## bykfixer

Nice to see ya hoodie. Welcome to the discussion.

I realize medical tech has become amazing since 1976, some due to zero gravity research. But a touchdown is still 6 points and mass production still has occasional hiccups that make it out of the factory doors. 

Plus as I said, my tin hat tendancies (as a long term Coast to Coast listener) has me thinking conspiracy stuff more than flaws in the medicine.


----------



## night.hoodie

dragging me in... 

bykfixer, touchdown well made, got me thinking if you weren't, if the pandemic were a football game, the goal for the virus is our nose and eye ducts, the grid iron is everywhere, every surface, and the defensive plays are astounding and tremendously complicated and have to be oh so precise, but we never switch sides, and with one score the game is lost.

scout24, when your dealer is your mechanic, where do you go for a second opinion?


----------



## scout24

I go to the independent guy I know who is a straight shooter and isn't bound by the manufacturer to make a certain number of book hours a month.


----------



## night.hoodie

scout24 said:


> I go to the independent guy I know who is a straight shooter and isn't bound by the manufacturer to make a certain number of book hours a month.



LOL They don't actually work all those hours. There is a book they go by with standard hours listed per job, which they use for billing labor, whether they work all those hours or not. You're probably aware, IOW, book says job takes 2 hours, but the mechanic gets it done in 45 minutes, still charges you 2 hours.

I religiously used independent mechanics, formed relationships and trust spanning years, until I got a relatively modern car, 2011 model, and it is so complex with computers and new systems only the dealer can be trusted to work on it. Kind of blows. I used to have some small understanding of how stuff worked, now in all the modern cars one is lucky to figure out where the battery is.


----------



## SCEMan

night.hoodie said:


> I used to have some small understanding of how stuff worked, now in all the modern cars one is lucky to figure out where the battery is.



So true. Sam's Club wouldn't put a new battery in my Audi Quattro sedan, said the dealer had to reset the system software. I took the battery home and swapped it myself.


----------



## turbodog

SCEMan said:


> So true. Sam's Club wouldn't put a new battery in my Audi Quattro sedan, said the dealer had to reset the system software. I took the battery home and swapped it myself.



Sounds like BMW, which stands for 'bring my wallet' if you didn't know!


----------



## bykfixer




----------



## night.hoodie

The proper technique escapes some breeds...


----------



## scout24

night.hoodie said:


> LOL They don't actually work all those hours. There is a book they go by with standard hours listed per job, which they use for billing labor, whether they work all those hours or not. You're probably aware, IOW, book says job takes 2 hours, but the mechanic gets it done in 45 minutes, still charges you 2 hours.
> I religiously used independent mechanics, formed relationships and trust spanning years, until I got a relatively modern car, 2011 model, and it is so complex with computers and new systems only the dealer can be trusted to work on it. Kind of blows. I used to have some small understanding of how stuff worked, now in all the modern cars one is lucky to figure out where the battery is.



I believe you unknowingly made my point in the first portion of your response. The manufacturer likes to see xxxx number of book hours per month based on number of vehicles seen. They charge based on book time. They care not for customer loyalty. My independent shop charges based on time taken, and wants happy repeat business. One operates blindly based on greed, one operates based on keeping it's customers happy.

I was using an analogy in my response to you, not looking for a discussion tangent. Back on topic please.


----------



## night.hoodie

I think this may help understanding why modern vaccines can not infect the vaccinated with the very virus they aim to prevent. chillim already seems to have covered why the polio vaccine is different, that in aggressive attempts to eradicate polio globally, many in Third World counties require a single dose vaccine that contains weakened strains of polio virus, while residents of First World countries can reasonably receive a vaccine containing dead virus with a timed booster later. 

When the first polio vaccine was developed in 1935, medical science simply was not up to today's standards, and early tests on live subjects with vaccines containing live virus proved to be catastrophic. 85 years ago, fission had not yet been discovered, travel by horse still dominated the country side and continued to do so until the end of the Depression in 1939, freezers wouldn't enter the home until 1940, air conditioning in the home would not become commonplace until the 1950s, and manned spaceflight would not appear until the early 1960s. In the 1930's, life expectancy at birth was only 58 for men and 62 for women, compared to today's 78.93 years. That's just crazy, so in a lot of respects, 1935 was a very different world. 


You can't get flu from a flu shot. Here's why.

Searching for information about the vaccines being developed for coronavirus vaccines, I found this.


> None of the early vaccines being tested by Moderna, Pfizer, AstraZeneca, or Johnson & Johnson are live weakened versions (similar, for example, to the measles, mumps, rubella, or varicella vaccines). Moderna’s and Pfizer’s are mRNA vaccines, and AstraZeneca’s and Johnson & Johnson’s are non-replicating vectored vaccines. *SOURCE*



While there are myriad strategies for developing coronavirus vaccine, and one therefore must include the idea of using weakened live virus, no one is working on that strategy, though it is possible it may become necessary for certain populations... but very likely not in the United States and other First World or even Second World nations. 

So to pick the exception in polio virus from problems occurring half a century ago, and spread fear and doubt saying, "vaccines can infect you," is an incredibly irresponsible and scientifically ignorant statement, and for residents of the United States in 2020, simply untrue. 

Everyone wants to be smartest, but few are willing to do the work required to actually know everything about a subject, and I do not claim such knowledge of anything. If one person says Benjamin Franklin discovered electricity in 1759, someone else may argue it was William Gilbert who coined the term in 1600, while someone that may know less about the history of science might have heard about the Bagdad Batteries estimated to be from 250BC. Having a few random facts is not knowledge, _it is trivia._. Thus it is trivia (not _trivial_) that early polio vaccines caused infection and killed a handful of children with polio in the early live experiments in the mid-1930's, but it is not at all knowledge of the medical state of vaccines today, and why would anyone trust something like that? Almost half a million people died from smoking last year, so why would you smoke? (FWIW, I smoke. **** off.) More than 40,000 people were killed in a car accident last year, so why would you still own and drive a car? Over 500 people _were killed by their own gun last year_, so why would you own a gun? Be smart, not a smart ***. Be rational. If a vaccine is released today in the United States (perhaps not under this particular administration), you better believe it has been tested and it is safe, and it is best for you and for everyone to be vaccinated as soon as possible.

Why mess with that kind of Karma?


----------



## nbp

Amazing, it’s like chillinn is still here with us in this very thread....


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

nbp said:


> Amazing, it’s like chillinn is still here with us in this very thread....


 
One's reminded of Whac A Mole.


----------



## bigburly912

Did everyone miss the part where chillin said name one instance of this ever happening? Where in the hell are the rest of these responses coming from? Wow people. People fight and argue when there is nothing at all to argue over.


----------



## turbodog

Infection _rates_ are ticking back up nationwide.

We are looking pretty good overall, but keep the course.


----------



## scout24

I'm not sure if colleges and primary schools opening back up has bumped up the numbers. Testing has increased, at least amongst that demographic.


----------



## raggie33

am i the only one who fears coughers?


----------



## bykfixer




----------



## scout24

That'd be one way to cut voluntary testing.

Raggie- Nope, I avoid anyone coughing by as wide a margin as possible...


----------



## Lynx_Arc

I don't worry about coughing as long as it is mild here as lots of people cough due to allergies and dust including me. I've been coughing on and off since March this year.


----------



## bykfixer

I'm more concerned about coughing around people than people coughing around me.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

bykfixer said:


> I'm more concerned about coughing around people than people coughing around me.


That is why I stocked up on cough drops. My favorite is the vitamin C ones from Target for $1.99. They taste pretty good and aren't the most expensive. For some reason I often start the day coughing till about noon then stop. It could be high humidity is the culprit.


----------



## bykfixer

When Mrs. Fixers parrot hears I'm awake it says "cough, cough, achew, bless you" lol.


----------



## NY09C6

chillinn said:


> The anti-science, anti-education, pro-conspiracy theory element in our society cannot be silenced... but we can ignore them, and if they refuse vaccination, for the sake of herd immunity, we can legislate against them, and fine them, which will coax them to accept a preventative medicine that is infinitely less dangerous and damaging to them than all the fast food, soda and alcohol they willfully consume.



Will you be voting against the party that has now delayed the vaccine by an additional two months?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Kestrel

Hello NY;
While I understand your sentiment, this line of inquiry may not be entirely fruitful as the member you've replied to is on a bit of a break, having recently run afoul of a number of forum policies that CPF staff utilizes to encourage constructive discussion.

Although we do our very best to not discuss forum moderation, I do feel that this thread would be benefited by a reminder of the reasons why we discourage inflammatory political posting; an example of which had occurred earlier in the conversation here.

Best regards,
K


----------



## Poppy

bykfixer said:


>




LOL... That meme is funny!

I'm looking forward to the return of Disney's "The Mandalorian"


----------



## Hooked on Fenix

Kind of funny that we have star wars characters coming out of our fires in California. We got a baby Yoda kitten. What's next? Maybe a Sasquash Chewbaca or something that looks like Jar Jar Binx?


----------



## Kestrel

Hooked on Fenix said:


> [...] What's next?


Plenty of time for more; the year is only ~85% over, lol. :-/


----------



## raggie33

im thinkng winter is going to be scary


----------



## Falcon9h

bykfixer said:


> Nice to see ya hoodie. Welcome to the discussion.
> 
> I realize medical tech has become amazing since 1976, some due to zero gravity research. But a touchdown is still 6 points and mass production still has occasional hiccups that make it out of the factory doors.
> 
> Plus as I said, my tin hat tendancies (as a long term Coast to Coast listener) has me thinking conspiracy stuff more than flaws in the medicine.



Ah. A kindred soul!


----------



## goodchristmas

im just tired of the situation. the only thing that has kept me going is Christmas and new year . hoping that we will have a better year


----------



## Monocrom

goodchristmas said:


> im just tired of the situation. the only thing that has kept me going is Christmas and new year . hoping that we will have a better year



One.... :welcome:

Two.... All sarcasm aside, if the General Public keeps acting the way it has been throughout 2020, that better year is realistically looking like *2022*.


----------



## raggie33

trumps personal aid has covid. this is getting scary ps i dont think this is politics if it is i will delete this


----------



## raggie33

trump has covid


----------



## bykfixer

Wilson had the Spanish flu while negotiating the treaty of Versaille.
I'll stop there.


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

raggie33 said:


> trump has covid



Pray he doesn't become one of the 6% of people COVID kills sans comorbidity. :candle:


----------



## Monocrom

raggie33 said:


> trump has covid



....and so does the 1st Lady. 

That's all I'm posting with regards to this new bit of news. Just a factual update. Nothing more.


----------



## Poppy

raggie33 said:


> trump has covid


Thanks raggie.
It is currently all over the news.
It'll be interesting to see what affect it will have on the country's functioning. Of course that to a great extent will be determined by how significant his symptoms are.


----------



## Hooked on Fenix

I wonder if Joe Biden caught it too? He just debated Trump this week. I'll be praying for anyone that gets sick from this virus. I wouldn't wish this for anyone.


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

Hooked on Fenix said:


> I wonder if Joe Biden caught it too? He just debated Trump this week. I'll be praying for anyone that gets sick from this virus. I wouldn't wish this for anyone.



Why? They didn't shake hands. They remained at least ten to 12 feet apart from each other, and neither one sneezed or coughed.


----------



## idleprocess

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> Why? They didn't shake hands. They remained at least ten to 12 feet apart from each other, and neither one sneezed or coughed.



They both spent an extended period in the same enclosed space that likely had typical recirculating HVAC, thus some elevated risk of transmission as opposed to being outdoors or passing within a meter of someone in the megalomart once then never getting closer than 20 meters until you leave.

However, I've little doubt that Joe Biden has been tested since the news broke, thus we'll probably know with certainty soon enough.


----------



## bigburly912

If he wasn’t coughing he wasn’t shedding the virus. Almost no shed from normal breathing


----------



## idleprocess

bigburly912 said:


> If he wasn’t coughing he wasn’t shedding the virus. Almost no shed from normal breathing



The following sources disagree:

WebMD
UC Davis
WHO
CDC

Regardless, we'll surely know in this specific case soon enough.


----------



## bigburly912

And I can google and list several that disagree with your disagreement. See how fun this is for everyone?


----------



## idleprocess

bigburly912 said:


> And I can google and list several that disagree with your disagreement. See how fun this is for everyone?



I'm sure you can and suggest you do since the sources I cited are well-regarded in the field of health sciences and am interested in seeing what you come up with.


----------



## raggie33

joe and wife tested negative


----------



## raggie33

i hope this makes people wear a mask.


----------



## Hooked on Fenix

Senator Mike Lee tested positive.


----------



## wacbzz

idleprocess said:


> I'm sure you can and suggest you do since the sources I cited are well-regarded in the field of health sciences and am interested in seeing what you come up with.



+1


----------



## bykfixer

idleprocess said:


> I'm sure you can and suggest you do since the sources I cited are well-regarded in the field of health sciences and am interested in seeing what you come up with.



I snorted and chuckled at this. WHO? CDC? Sure because they've been so acurate so far……

It's a highly contageous virus. Nobody has been able to pin down with 100% certainty every means of transmission it has or how much viral load it takes to make you sick. One candidate stayed in near quarentine for a while and other glad handled the whole time. It stands to reason he was the one who got it first. Staying quarentined was a good thing. But now he is out glad handling too. So his chances at getting it have greatly increased recently. The virus is very very prominent in DC inside the beltway circles. 

At my wife's work the one person who was the most mask faithful was the one person hospitalized by Covid-19 despite wearing face covers constantly. My wife would tell me there were days she doubled up her masks. One day we both quipped watch her be the one to get it. And she did.

Wash your hands, stay 6 feet apart, mask if you cannot and don't touch your face. If you suffer allergies cough into your elbow, properly dispose of used facial tissue. This thing still has 344 million people to go in America.


----------



## ledbetter

idleprocess said:


> I'm sure you can and suggest you do since the sources I cited are well-regarded in the field of health sciences and am interested in seeing what you come up with.



I agree. Being able to cite reliable data sources is vital for anyone who wishes to succeed in higher education and many professions which require accuracy of verifiable evidence. Those who fail to differentiate the wheat from the chaff usually fall prey to fake facts which are loudest and said repeatedly.


----------



## Poppy

bykfixer said:


> I snorted and chuckled at this. WHO? CDC? Sure because they've been so acurate so far……
> 
> It's a highly contageous virus. Nobody has been able to pin down with 100% certainty every means of transmission it has or how much viral load it takes to make you sick. One candidate stayed in near quarentine for a while and other glad handled the whole time. It stands to reason he was the one who got it first. Staying quarentined was a good thing. But now he is out glad handling too. So his chances at getting it have greatly increased recently. The virus is very very prominent in DC inside the beltway circles.
> 
> *At my wife's work the one person who was the most mask faithful was the one person hospitalized by Covid-19 despite wearing face covers constantly. My wife would tell me there were days she doubled up her masks. One day we both quipped watch her be the one to get it. And she did.
> *
> Wash your hands, stay 6 feet apart, mask if you cannot and don't touch your face. If you suffer allergies cough into your elbow, properly dispose of used facial tissue. This thing still has 344 million people to go in America.



Perhaps she was more respectful/fearful of the virus than the rest of her co-workers because she has been living with her same body for the last fifty years, and knows that if anyone will come down with a cold or virus, she will too!

Remember... wearing the mask does little to prevent the wearer from getting sick. It's more the environment that the person is in. If they are in an environment with a number of people who are NOT wearing masks (especially in-doors) they are more likely to be exposed, than if everyone was wearing a mask.


----------



## turbodog

ledbetter said:


> I agree. Being able to cite reliable data sources is vital for anyone who wishes to succeed in higher education and many professions which require accuracy of verifiable evidence. Those who fail to differentiate the wheat from the chaff usually fall prey to fake facts which are loudest and said repeatedly.



Think you can truncate that after the word 'succeed'.


----------



## Monocrom

For those who missed it, the latest bit of news is that President Trump was taken to the hospital due to his coronavirus infection. Though, not in critical condition.


----------



## knucklegary

^ off to Walter Reed, for experimental cocktail of drugs, under his own power


----------



## PhotonWrangler

bykfixer said:


> ...At my wife's work the one person who was the most mask faithful was the one person hospitalized by Covid-19 despite wearing face covers constantly. My wife would tell me there were days she doubled up her masks. One day we both quipped watch her be the one to get it. And she did.



Does that woman wear glasses? It's known that the virus can get in via the eyes (specifically the mucous membranes surrounding them) and people who wear glasses have a little bit of additional protection against it for this reason.


----------



## bykfixer

She wore goggles PW. At least while away from home. 
They suspect she got it from her husband who got it while working in DC. 

It was before all of the mask mandates. Out of 50 at my wife's work only 3 have had it. They suspect the other two who got it got it from the cautious lady. Now the company has a mask policy but back then as luck would have it the three people who got it were very cautious back then.


----------



## Kestrel

A confounding variable may be that people who who are trying to do a better job of protecting themselves, could have evaluated their risk assessment higher than average due to employment, family members, medical risk factors, or whatever.
No opinion here as I certainly don't know all the facts, just that the statistics for these situations are most likely rather complex.


----------



## bykfixer

Exactly Kestrel. 
Luck plays a role. Now we can assist luck one way or the other by being prepared (or not) but sometimes even that does not matter. And in the DC political circles it's like living in Berlin during a bombing raid by the allies when it comes to infectious ailments.


----------



## turbodog

And she's the one showing outward symptoms. Plenty of other people can be asymptomatic there...


----------



## raggie33

Can newton now has it


----------



## knucklegary

Too bad about Newton.. Looks like Patriots are going with backup veteran QB Brian Hoyer


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

knucklegary said:


> ^ off to Walter Reed, for experimental cocktail of drugs, under his own power



God speed on a quick and full recovery. :candle:


----------



## bykfixer

Listening to a 'palm-ologist' on Coast to Coast radio was an intriguing topic and the when he and the host began discussing vaccines (namely corona virus) he said "George, if you get the vaccine why do you care if I get one or not? You've been vaccinated so if I get sick I won't give it to you, right?" George paused briefly and said "you're right, so if 10% of the population gets vaccinated why would they care if the rest don't?"'
Food for thought. 

Then being Coast to Coast they got into the obligitory Coast to Coast stuff about it altering this and that. Both agreed that mandating it may cause bigger uprising than already taking place over the lock downs and selective business closures etc. Time will tell. 

In the meantime another show called Red Eye Radio had a fellow who pointed out cases rising in America is often based on temperatures. In hot weather for example parts of the US largely spared in spring saw cases rising as more people stayed in air conditioned places. He said those places will likely see cases fall as cooler weather has folks outside more and on the flipside places now getting chilly like New York will see spikes as people stay inside to stay warm. 
More food for thought.


----------



## idleprocess

bykfixer said:


> Listening to a 'palm-ologist' on Coast to Coast radio was an intriguing topic and the when he and the host began discussing vaccines (namely corona virus) he said "George, if you get the vaccine why do you care if I get one or not? You've been vaccinated so if I get sick I won't give it to you, right?" George paused briefly and said "you're right, so if 10% of the population gets vaccinated why would they care if the rest don't?"'
> Food for thought.



Effective _*herd immunity*_ is usually the other way around - it takes a strong majority of the population with immunity _(via natural selection or engineered vis-à-vis a vaccine)_ to prevent widespread outbreaks.

A hypothetical 'vaccinated population' is likely to _care_ about the unvaccinated because no one wants to go through another round of lockdowns, hospital systems entering triage mode, and another wave of mass deaths from the disease.


----------



## turbodog

bykfixer said:


> Listening to a 'palm-ologist' on Coast to Coast radio was an intriguing topic and the when he and the host began discussing vaccines (namely corona virus) he said "George, if you get the vaccine why do you care if I get one or not? You've been vaccinated so if I get sick I won't give it to you, right?" George paused briefly and said "you're right, so if 10% of the population gets vaccinated why would they care if the rest don't?"'
> Food for thought.
> 
> ...



I commented on this exact-type post already.

1. Longer the virus lingers and the more widespread it is... greater chance we will have a mutation that resets the clock to zero.
2. Economic impact of 90% playing whack-a-mole is catastrophic.
3. 90% of population can still easily swamp healthcare system.
4. And so on...


----------



## bykfixer

Remember folks covid-19 IS NOT a death sentence despite what Henny Penny on CNN would have you think.


----------



## Poppy

I am so tired of listening to broadcasters on BOTH sides of the fence. Each takes the most dramatic approach that supports their position.
Just tired.


----------



## bykfixer

Agreed Poppy, agreed. Me too. I tuned it out months ago. Maybe the ghost of sitting bull will send out smokes signals when it's over……trouble is folks out west may not see 'em for all that other smoke from forest fires. Good gosh!


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

bykfixer said:


> Remember folks covid-19 IS NOT a death sentence despite what Henny Penny on CNN would have you think.


 
My understanding is if you're under 80 years old and in relatively good health, your chance of dying from COVID is extremely slim.


----------



## bigburly912

It’s insane to me how quickly people on a flashlight forum want to argue with everyone like they are experts. 

September 21, 2020. They still don’t know if it’s spread through just breathing. It was taken off the CDC page. As I have said several times.......depending on where you read or how you read “the experts” will tell you something different every time. It is nauseating and exhausting. Wear a mask, keep away from others as much as you can. My 5 year olds principal and teacher tested positive in her tiny private school. She is not infected and my wife and I both tested negative. So far no transmission to any students or parents. 


https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cb...uidance-coronavirus-transmitted-by-breathing/

Let me edit to add. There are no facts it seems. My best fried is a cardiopulmonologist at Walter Reed. My wife is a nurse practitioner. I worked in healthcare for 5 years in physical therapy before venturing off in trades. And NONE of that makes any of us an expert on this crap. Every single time people think they have a grip on how this stuff works a new study comes out and refutes everything. There are no good answers except that people need to stay away from each other which isn’t going to happen. Try to take care of each other that’s all you can do


----------



## raggie33

I'm just another moron on the internet . I do know I could not live with my self if I got someone sick. So I take precautions


----------



## PhotonWrangler

In addition to Vitamin D we picked up a bottle of zinc supplements recently. I opened the zinc bottle tonight and... sniff sniff... huh, it smells *exactly* like caramel. That was surprising.


----------



## bigburly912

https://apple.news/ADhdqh7l-S-GLqjlUFFivig

And now back to square one. See what I mean?


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

bigburly912 said:


> https://apple.news/ADhdqh7l-S-GLqjlUFFivig
> 
> And now back to square one. See what I mean?



Yes, I know exactly what you mean. The CDC has flip flopped once again.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/cdc-covid-guidance-coronavirus-transmitted-by-breathing/


----------



## turbodog

So I'm all for getting expert information, but *did we really need to be told that a respiratory-borne virus can be transmitted through the air?* Come on...

It's all a math game. Depending on exhale volume, droplet size, infection level, temperature, humidity, airflow, mask usage(s), etc infection can occur at varying distances.


----------



## bigburly912

I’m still waiting to find an expert. Changing guidelines weekly is definitely not in any way expert advice. 


And Exactly, to go back to where we were if Trump wasn’t coughing he isn’t going to shed enough virus to infect Biden from freaking 20 feet away.


----------



## vadimax

bykfixer said:


> Remember folks covid-19 IS NOT a death sentence despite what Henny Penny on CNN would have you think.



Even "worse" -- a lot of people don't even notice the disease. There was a test in Lithuania: some 1500 people have been probed. 3% of them were COVID-19 immune. The most funny moment that no one even knew they've got the virus.

Officially there were 5366 incidents registered in Lithuania with ~2794000 population. That makes 0.192%.


----------



## bigburly912

vadimax said:


> Even "worse" -- a lot of people don't even notice the disease. There was a test in Lithuania: some 1500 people have been probed. 3% of them were COVID-19 immune. The most funny moment that no one even knew they've got the virus.
> 
> Officially there were 5366 incidents registered in Lithuania with ~2794000 population. That makes 0.192%.



Could you imagine if people didn’t notice seasonal flu and say went into nursing homes or ICU or retirement homes or cancer centers or schools or restaurants or groceries or cruises or anywhere........ without masks unknowingly spreading the disease to the more susceptible people around them? I can just imagine all of the secondary problems from it and how many it would kill.


----------



## turbodog

bigburly912 said:


> Could you imagine if people didn’t notice seasonal flu and say went into nursing homes or ICU or retirement homes or cancer centers or schools or restaurants or groceries or cruises or anywhere........ without masks unknowingly spreading the disease to the more susceptible people around them? I can just imagine all of the secondary problems from it and how many it would kill.



It's not an 'if' on the flu. I went in for unrelated stuff 2-3 years ago, and they uncovered flu while they had me in. If all flu people who got sick, felt sick, and stayed home we would not have a flu problem either.


----------



## turbodog

bigburly912 said:


> I’m still waiting to find an expert. Changing guidelines weekly is definitely not in any way expert advice.
> 
> ...



Experts do assessments very well. What you and others are asking is for them to predict the future.


----------



## bigburly912

turbodog said:


> It's not an 'if' on the flu. I went in for unrelated stuff 2-3 years ago, and they uncovered flu while they had me in. If all flu people who got sick, felt sick, and stayed home we would not have a flu problem either.



Exactly


----------



## nbp

Yeah it’s easy to point fingers and blame people for errors later but there was/still is so much unknown I think it’s really crazy how incensed people get at the way this or that official handled things at one point or another. As if they had/have all the answers and could have dealt with every problem perfectly. Puhhhlease.


----------



## ledbetter

nbp said:


> Yeah it’s easy to point fingers and blame people for errors later but there was/still is so much unknown I think it’s really crazy how incensed people get at the way this or that official handled things at one point or another. As if they had/have all the answers and could have dealt with every problem perfectly. Puhhhlease.


It’s easy to point fingers when the person in charge is partially responsible for going on a quarter MILLION American deaths! And he himself contracted it through arrogance and carelessness. And as if the average American can get every anti-viral cocktail that he has taken. What a joke. Trust the science and wear a mask.


----------



## Greta

turbodog said:


> Experts do assessments very well. What you and others are asking is for them to predict the future.



And we've seen already how well that works out. What was the initial prediction? Some 2.2 million deaths in the U.S. with 81% of the population infected? How has that prediction worked out? :ironic:


----------



## nbp

Ledbetter: I am not taking any sides here, relax. I have literally no political affiliation. My statement applies to any situation. We always think we could have done better than someone else, even something as simple as a fourth down call on a football game. And that’s not to say people don’t screw up, but usually decisions are more complicated than we think. And Let’s not forget that ultimately things come down to citizens’ actions too. In many places, my state for example, the Governor has enacted restriction Orders which have then been struck down by our Supreme Court, or fought or ignored by citizens and local governments. So anyone who thinks it’s a simple thing to have dealt with this is not really looking at the whole picture.


----------



## wacbzz

Greta said:


> And we've seen already how well that works out. What was the initial prediction? Some 2.2 million deaths in the U.S. with 81% of the population infected? How has that prediction worked out? :ironic:



Honestly, what do _initial _predictions about a virus heretobefore unknown have to do with where we are now except to _try_ to prove some dubious point about “experts being wrong?”

Don’t take that the wrong way, but with over 200k dead now in the US and over 1,000,000 dead worldwide, where would we be _without_ that expert advice you now so backhandedly dismiss?


----------



## ledbetter

nbp said:


> Ledbetter: I am not taking any sides here, relax. I have literally no political affiliation. My statement applies to any situation. We always think we could have done better than someone else, even something as simple as a fourth down call on a football game. And that’s not to say people don’t screw up, but usually decisions are more complicated than we think. And Let’s not forget that ultimately things come down to citizens’ actions too. In many places, my state for example, the Governor has enacted restriction Orders which have then been struck down by our Supreme Court, or fought or ignored by citizens and local governments. So anyone who thinks it’s a simple thing to have dealt with this is not really looking at the whole picture.


Thanks mod, I’m so relaxed. You should see me now chillin at the beach. But to the point, it is not a simple situation, anything but. Yet our leader treated it as such, believing in magic, potions, and nostrums instead of the scientific community this country is justly so proud of. And now we have states such as your own in total disarray with no federal guidance and with peaking numbers. And your answer is it’s no one’s fault? I respectfully disagree.


----------



## Greta

turbodog said:


> Experts do assessments very well. What you and others are asking is for them to predict the future.





Greta said:


> And we've seen already how well that works out. What was the initial prediction? Some 2.2 million deaths in the U.S. with 81% of the population infected? How has that prediction worked out? :ironic:





wacbzz said:


> Honestly, what do _initial _predictions about a virus heretobefore unknown have to do with where we are now except to _try_ to prove some dubious point about “experts being wrong?”



I think you missed turbo dog's post that I was responding to. Predicting the future rarely works out... _especially_ when, as you pointed out, it's "about a virus heretobefore unknown". Acorns falling from a tree do not predict a falling sky. Stick to the _known_ facts and work from there. 



wacbzz said:


> Don’t take that the wrong way, but with over 200k dead now in the US and over 1,000,000 dead worldwide, where would we be _without_ that expert *advice* you now so backhandedly dismiss?



Ahhh... see the word in your quote that I emphasized? "Advice" is based on _known_ facts at that time. "Predictions" are based on what is yet unknown but maybe/possibly/perhaps "we _think_ this might (or might not) happen". Hardly the same.




Added after further thought....

Example: Advice - "We _know _the virus is transmitted by droplets in the air. Wear a mask and stay away from each other."
Prediction: "_MILLIONS _of people in the U.S. are going to die!! AHHHHH!!! Run! Hide! Shut down the whole country! _WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE AND IF YOU COME NEAR ME WITHOUT A MASK, I WILL KILL YOU MYSELF!!"
_
As time goes on, more information (facts) become known and advice is adjusted. _Predictions_ fall by the wayside and indeed we can't help but think "hmmm... the experts were wrong". BUT - based on new facts, more predictions are made anyway. And again we all go into panic mode only to find out with the next round of _known facts_ that once again the predictions were just a tad bit off. When will we stop looking at predictions and start listening to the facts? Everyone talks about "trust the science". Well? Since when are predictions "science"? :shrug: At best they are "educated guesses" and I think that is subjective also.


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

It's a well-known fact that Knee-Jerk never allows Context to proceed before him.


----------



## nbp

ledbetter said:


> Thanks mod, I’m so relaxed. You should see me now chillin at the beach. But to the point, it is not a simple situation, anything but. Yet our leader treated it as such, believing in magic, potions, and nostrums instead of the scientific community this country is justly so proud of. And now we have states such as your own in total disarray with no federal guidance and with peaking numbers. And your answer is it’s no one’s fault? I respectfully disagree.



Nah man, I don’t think it’s a good situation. But as I have watched this unfold and the layers of challenges involving government structure, economy, health care, social issues of all kinds, and the large degree of personal autonomy in this country... I kinda feel like this was going to go badly for the US any way you slice it. That’s all I meant.


----------



## bykfixer

I predicted early on (in the corona virus 1 thread) that the human race does a helluva good job at spreading disease. Not to toot my own horn but so far it appears that is the case. 

This thing is deadly for some, yes. Yet to most it is not. The old saying "history repeats" is also taking place as many of the back and forth discussions took place during the Spanish Flu pandemic (which there is no vaccine for in 2020 while strains of it resurface from time to time.) Some of the same mistakes made back then are being repeated. Some are not. We just have instant access to the opinions at this time that they did not have back then. 

Drawing a line in the sand and hollering at others on the other side does no good. A mistake made back then too. Both sides had experts they could site from too. Long after the pandemic was when the real facts were learned. During that pandemic it was only recent history that could tell the story. They say now that a sizeable fatalities in WW1 participants was from the Spanish flu. Strain 1 (of 3 or 4) tended to take out military age people the most. 

To me a mask is like a seatbelt. If fate plays a cruel joke the seatbelt may be what takes you out. However history (via statistics) shows mostly it prevents deaths. Yet careful driving probably prevents way way more deaths by preventing the reason a seat belt is even necessary. So should careful drivers avoid wearing seatbelts? I used to but in time it just seemed to be a good idea to wear one. Nobody told me I had to for it to happen. 

Same with a mask. Social distancing, keeping a careful approach to people I interact with, avoiding crowds as much as possible have resulted in a so far so good situation. Some do not have the luxury of avoiding interaction with a lot of strangers or social distancing. If people practice common sense approaches they lessen the risk. But like driving on the interstate during rush hour the risk still remains. 

We have lane markers on the road that evolve over time thanks to lessons learned. We also have guidelines for corona virus as lessons are learned. In the future the human race will understand more about the 2020 pandemic. But hindsight being 20/20 will play a role. Our great grand kids may shake their heads at how stupid we were at times. We do that now. They used leeches back then? Duh. Our descendents may say "they ate what? Fried cookies?" Duh. 

So for now, stay 6 feet apart, mask when you can't (and if practical cover your eyes too), wash your hands, try to avoid touching your face, keep your social circle small and enjoy life best you can until this thing passes.


----------



## raggie33

This year sucks now Eddie van halen has died not of civic but damn 2020 sucks


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## Monocrom

So for those who missed it, President Trump is out of the hospital, continuing with his aggressive treatment back at the White House. (Sorry to ruin the celebrations that no doubt went on behind closed doors for some. Not in the mood to pretend that those who constantly scream about tolerance are not the most intolerant and hate-filled ones out there.)

NYC still has an alarming number of hot spots in which certain communities are having spikes in coronavirus new infections. No ones knows why. Well, they do but it wouldn't be P.C. to state the obvious. So, I will! Communities mainly made up of religious groups who keep testing God (yeah don't do that) and simply expect to remain infection-free due to being religious. The problem is so large that our Governor is seriously considering closing schools again. Though this idea is in the very early phase of even being a _possibility._


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## raggie33

Monocrom said:


> So for those who missed it, President Trump is out of the hospital, continuing with his aggressive treatment back at the White House. (Sorry to ruin the celebrations that no doubt went on behind closed doors for some. Not in the mood to pretend that those who constantly scream about tolerance are not the most intolerant and hate-filled ones out there.)
> 
> NYC still has an alarming number of hot spots in which certain communities are having spikes in coronavirus new infections. No ones knows why. Well, they do but it wouldn't be P.C. to state the obvious. So, I will! Communities mainly made up of religious groups who keep testing God (yeah don't do that) and simply expect to remain infection-free due to being religious. The problem is so large that our Governor is seriously considering closing schools again. Though this idea is in the very early phase of even being a _possibility._



Don't like grumpy but I'm glad he is ok


----------



## Poppy

Monocrom said:


> So for those who missed it, President Trump is out of the hospital, continuing with his aggressive treatment back at the White House. (Sorry to ruin the celebrations that no doubt went on behind closed doors for some. Not in the mood to pretend that those who constantly scream about tolerance are not the most intolerant and hate-filled ones out there.)
> 
> NYC still has an alarming number of hot spots in which certain communities are having spikes in coronavirus new infections. No ones knows why. Well, they do but it wouldn't be P.C. to state the obvious. So, I will! Communities mainly made up of religious groups who keep testing God (yeah don't do that) and simply expect to remain infection-free due to being religious. The problem is so large that our Governor is seriously considering closing schools again. Though this idea is in the very early phase of even being a _possibility._


Yeah, Trump is out of the hospital you aren't bringing news to anyone. People on both sides... Trump Lovers, and Trump haters, are glued to their phones, social media outlets, and the TV following this story.

I don't see a lot of "tolerance vs intolerance" arguments out there. I do see "equality vs inequality" arguments presented. Black/white/Hispanic/Gay/Straight/male vs female/etc. While I do believe that all the above should have equal rights, I am disheartened when I see advertisements to support "Black owned businesses" more than any other. There is such a thing as "reverse discrimination". IMO that is inappropriate, and discriminatory.

Regarding religious groups "testing God": I disagree. IMO they have *Faith* In God! They believe, according to the Old Testament of the Bible, they are His "Chosen People." Maybe they are, or maybe they have a twisted interpretation of the Bible. Honestly I don't know what their beliefs are.

It seems that there is a certain subset of a Religious group that has had a significant increase of infection of the Covid-19 virus. What God had to do with it? I suspect, nothing.


----------



## turbodog

Greta said:


> ...
> As time goes on, more information (facts) become known and advice is adjusted. _Predictions_ fall by the wayside and indeed we can't help but think "hmmm... the experts were wrong". BUT - based on new facts, more predictions are made anyway. And again we all go into panic mode only to find out with the next round of _known facts_ that once again the predictions were just a tad bit off. ...



But the catch is, whatever predictions we have are based on current conditions. If people panic (change their actions) then the equation's coefficients change. It does not render the equation invalid.

I predicted my state's confirmed infected numbers to within an error of +/- 1.5% for 50 days straight. That's pretty good for a non-epidemiologist.

Then, state law concerning masks changed which influenced behavior.

I used the same math, with new weighting, and have predicted the current 'run' of infections to withing +/- .8% for 35 days straight.

So yes, in the initial stages of this, unless changes were made, we were on track for a very quick death toll of a couple of million.

Finally, and most concerning, the graph keeps going up. We bent the curve downward, for a while, but it then starts its relentless climb again. It's still in the 'manageable' range for now.


----------



## KITROBASKIN

Could it be said that our CPF soothsayer types are all over the place in his or her divinations, but for the most part, the 'experts' who get quoted nationally are highly slanted toward the worse case scenario? Is this done to try to get people to be more careful, or grabbing headlines?

No one in our house is glued to a device wanting to know more about anybody's strategy to win office.


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## turbodog

bigburly912 said:


> Exactly



Sorry, I misread your original post to have the emphasis on the word 'if' as in "it's not possible/happening but imagine if it was".


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## bykfixer

I think some of the dire predictions are in hopes of getting folks to be more careful, yes. 
Meanwhile there are some trying to make headlines too. 

Example would be the "weather channel". They typically site predictions at a bit more drama than say WeatherBug or local forecasters. A couple degrees colder in cold periods, a couple degrees hotter during hot periods. That's just the news being the news. "Extra Extra read all about it". 
I remember recently a hurricane that had weakened to a cat 2 was billed to be 10x worse than a Cat 4 that had recently made landfall. Adjectives and play(s) on words can paint a mental picture to keep folks glued to their tv set (or other communication device).

Early on in the corona pandemic when deaths were just starting my local radio station kept saying "9 new deaths" when the total had reached 9 total. When it climbed to 16 total they shouted "16 new deaths" repeatedly. I remember back in March thinking so many people were going to die so fast that people would literally be falling over in stores like Home Depot. But when that didn't happen many folks became skeptical. 

In the original conception of the US constitution it was written by people skeptical of people in power. In reality a huge slice of the citizenry here are no longer skeptical of people in power and do not understand why some still are. The reverse is also true. It makes for some lively debates at times. And the energy level isn't really all that different than during the Revolution period, the Civil War period and the Spanish flu period. We just have more access to that stuff than they did back then. And we use the F bomb a lot more.


----------



## idleprocess

KITROBASKIN said:


> Could it be said that our CPF soothsayer types are all over the place in his or her divinations, but for the most part, the 'experts' who get quoted nationally are highly slanted toward the worse case scenario? Is this done to try to get people to be more careful, or grabbing headlines?



As I've seen stated elsewhere - perhaps earlier in this thread or its predecessor - public health professionals are in the business of minimizing the impact of these events, which means that a complex message must be distilled down to something easily understood. Complimentary with those goals, advising _greater_ caution is likely to yield better results so long as it's likely to be followed.

As turbodog has indicated projections are based on known and unknown variables, subject to change as known variables change and unknowns are better understood. The initial dramatic projections didn't happen of course because some known variables changed _(shelter-in-place orders, mask mandates, restricting public gatherings, social distancing, etc)_ and some unknown variables became understood _(mechanisms of spread become better understood, the R0 rate is better defined, better decisions are made on when to hospitalize, treatment protocols/therapies are developed)_. Had we done absolutely nothing we would have seen infection/hospitalization/death rates a good deal closer to the upper bounds of the initial alarming figures - in effect the success of preventative measures became the most powerful argument against them.


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## vadimax

Unless there will be criminal charges for false information presentation this BS will never end. "Journalism" is an equivalent to prostitution in my book. I must say even worse than prostitution as the last one does not incite wars.


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## Monocrom

vadimax said:


> Unless there will be criminal charges for false information presentation this BS will never end. "Journalism" is an equivalent to prostitution in my book. I must say even worse than prostitution as the last one does not incite wars.



I'm old enough to remember when being a Journalist was a highly respected profession. The low-lives in the industry being Yellow Journalists. Now the "Yellow" part has been dropped as pretty much all of them have turned to trash. 

In local NYC news, more is actually being done than expected. We now have different zones of infection rates. Namely yellow, for mild. And, orange for higher rates. New measures, mandatory ones, are being put in place. Some that actually restrict the number of worshipers in houses of religion. Different severities of restrictions for orange, compared to yellow. So, I'm sure there'll be more idiotic protestors on the streets shoulder-to-shoulder, without masks as religious leaders in my neck of the woods continue to do absolutely nothing in terms of using their influence to keep their followers safe.


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## bykfixer

Sensationalized news reporting and public opinion shaping is not new. It's one of the reasons the founding fathers allowed a free press. That sounds awkward these days but at one point prior to America the press was required to compliment the leaders regardless or face the penalty. Now those same founding fathers also understood the "extra extra read all about it, president wants to be a dictotor" side of a free press so they wrote the articles of the Bill of Rights and other documents in secret. But back then word of mouth took time to spread in a public square as most were spread out on farms while there were some populated areas yet not all that many. So Sunday mornings were the time to get the word out. People flocked to churches and that's where the propaganda could be spread. 
To this day the Sunday paper is still popular along with Sunday news shows like Meet the Press. However these days we can get our news sent instantly to our computers, be it hand held or full size. The main difference these days is how many news organizations hire spin doctors to entertain the masses. There's big money in the ads for pills these days and those companies flock to the info-tainment news shows on either side of the spectrum. Example you'll see an ad for a pill that keeps diabetes in check over and over on all of the network info-tainment shows. 
The public being swayed by soundbites is also nothing new. How many people buy those atomic flashlights because the navy seals approve? That is why the Founding Fathers wrote the Constitution in secret. 

I just regret that so many are using a pandemic to cause a mass of people to take sides in political debates.


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## turbodog

I would say the pandemic is revealing the true colors...


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## ledbetter

First confirmed COVID reinfection in the US in a young man from Nevada. Study published by the Lancet Infectious Disease journal reported patient was infected with two distinct variants of the virus and was hospitalized the second time with more severe symptoms.


----------



## bigburly912

But but but....... the experts said it wouldn’t mutate. THEN the experts said that the mutations weren’t cause for alarm. Is this a mutation or a whole other virus? So many questions........So what do we believe? Do you all need me to quote credible sources or can you google “coronavirus won’t mutate” and see the articles from National Geographic and UChealth and several several others? 

No I don’t want and haven’t said I want anyone to predict the future. I’d just love for them to stop changing the present.


----------



## PhotonWrangler

ledbetter said:


> First confirmed COVID reinfection in the US in a young man from Nevada. Study published by the Lancet Infectious Disease journal reported patient was infected with two distinct variants of the virus and was hospitalized the second time with more severe symptoms.




If it's a different strain is it still a "reinfection" or a new one? There are many strains of the common cold, but we don't think of ourselves as being "reinfected" when we get a cold; it's a new infection.

Along those lines, is a Covid vaccine likely to provide protection against multiple strains of coronavirus or just one?


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## bigburly912

I’m sure there will be at least 8000 different answers from the exact same people over the course of 3 months


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## raggie33

Were in big trouble . I hope I'm wrong and I'm wrong a lot but I believe this winter will go down as the plague of 2020


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## bigburly912

raggie33 said:


> Were in big trouble . I hope I'm wrong and I'm wrong a lot but I believe this winter will go down as the plague of 2020



Just hope and pray that the flu shots are effective this year. Can’t imagine Covid and the flu running together.


----------



## Poppy

bigburly912 said:


> But but but....... *the experts said it wouldn’t mutate. THEN the experts said that the mutations weren’t cause for alarm*. Is this a mutation or a whole other virus? So many questions........So what do we believe? Do you all need me to quote credible sources or can you google “coronavirus won’t mutate” and see the articles from National Geographic and UChealth and several several others?
> 
> No I don’t want and haven’t said I want anyone to predict the future. I’d just love for them to stop changing the present.


Emphasis added.
I follow some experts and don't recall ever seeing them say that it can't/won't mutate. In fact those that I follow have stated that it might and that we haven't see it YET. 
I believe that the current belief is that if you had the original, and developed antibodies, that if you get a mutation infection, that your immune response may react quicker, and the symptoms may be less severe. There is a concern that similar to an allergic reaction, the body my over react and cause a cytokine storm very early in its response, when exposed to a variant 

Regarding an overlapping FLU season, there are those who say that if we follow the recommendations for Covid-19 (hand washing, no face touching, mask wearing, social distancing, staying out of crowded areas, (especially indoors)) that all of those precautions will be effective for the standard flu. But getting the flu vaccine will add additional protection.

It is amazing how quickly this virus can spread from person to person.

Let's all be careful and follow the advice of the experts.


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## bigburly912

Fortunately, SARS-CoV-2 seems to have a very low mutation rate due to its error correction genetic machinery. Speaking to the Washington Post, Peter Thielen, a Johns Hopkins molecular geneticist, said that scientists have studied over 1,000 samples of the virus from all over the world. They found only 4 to 10 genetic differences between the strains that infected people in the U.S. and those from Wuhan, China, the epicenter of the pandemic.

“That’s a relatively small number of mutations for having passed through a large number of people,” Thielen told the Post. “At this point, the mutation rate of the virus would suggest that the vaccine developed for SARS-CoV-2 would be a single vaccine, rather than a new vaccine every year like the flu vaccine.”

Under these conditions, a potential coronavirus vaccine would be administered once, as we do now for measles or chickenpox, offering immunity for a substantial amount of time — perhaps a lifetime.

The dire situation in Spain and Italy, where case mortality rates went well and beyond those seen in Wuhan, has led some to speculated that these populations are dealing with a more aggressive mutated strain of coronavirus.

However, the latest research suggests that this isn’t the case. The virus seems to be essentially the same in the United States, China, and Italy. So this particular article never said that the virus wouldn’t mutate...... it’s a virus, it’s going to mutate that’s what they do. It was thought that the virus would not mutate much. 

In the particular case with the kid that had the virus twice, from what I read the doctors are pretty sure he just didn’t have a strong antibody response during his first go around and the second time it was really bad.


----------



## turbodog

PhotonWrangler said:


> If it's a different strain is it still a "reinfection" or a new one? There are many strains of the common cold, but we don't think of ourselves as being "reinfected" when we get a cold; it's a new infection.
> 
> Along those lines, is a Covid vaccine likely to provide protection against multiple strains of coronavirus or just one?



Depends on what actual part of the virus the vaccine is made to trigger a response from. Some parts can change, but if your candidate 'keys' from a non-changing part you're good.

This has been the problem with a universal flu vaccine. Last I read, work was underway to make a flu shot that keyed from the stalks protruding from the core instead of the common method of the heads of the stalks... which change year to year (and sometimes more than that).


----------



## raggie33

I hope there is a cure soon


----------



## bigburly912

raggie33 said:


> I hope there is a cure soon



We all do brother, I’ve got a bad feeling this is just gonna be a part of how we do things from now on. Stay strong.


----------



## Katherine Alicia

PhotonWrangler said:


> is a Covid vaccine likely to provide protection against multiple strains of coronavirus or just one?



from what I understood, there are several starins of this c19 now, but the core part of the RNA that`s targeted by a vaccine has remained constant amongst all these new strains, so One vaccine should do all of them as it stands currently.


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## raggie33

I'm. Pretty sure I have covid btw I don't want to be buried in a pet cemetery


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## raggie33

Btw I don't have civic I was just. Referring to a 80#s rock band


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## markr6

raggie33 said:


> Btw I don't have civic




Come on auto-correct. You've had nearly 10 months to learn.


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

markr6 said:


> Come on auto-correct. You've had nearly 10 months to learn.



Auto-Correct - "I'm innocent, I tell ya!"


----------



## raggie33

Don't make me smack you lol it took me 15 months to log in in not even joking it kept correcting raggie33 to Maggie


----------



## Kestrel

Despite the risk of going off-topic, sometimes there is at least as much amusement to be had on the 'new' topic lol;

MS (edit: Microsoft) spellcheck insisted that my MS (edit: Masters of Science) Thesis terminology should not be "BiSrCaCuO superconducting ceramic", but "Pistachio superconducting ceramic".


----------



## Devildude

Too funny.


----------



## PhotonWrangler

Kestrel said:


> Despite the risk of going off-topic, sometimes there is at least as much amusement to be had on the 'new' topic lol;
> 
> MS spellcheck insisted that my MS Thesis terminology should not be "BiSrCaCuO superconducting ceramic", but "Pistachio superconducting ceramic".




Lol. That's nuts.


----------



## Kestrel

PhotonWrangler said:


> Lol. That's nuts.


Yes they are.


----------



## idleprocess

Trekked into the office for the first time in almost exactly 7 months. I expected a _census_ of perhaps 5% - with perhaps 15 / 600 people onsite it was closer to 2.5%. Speaking to the desktop support fellow whose job is _functionally_ bound to the location, he indicated that 8 was about average on a given day, with a select cadre of upper management making up the bulk of the 'regulars'.

I was mildly - and pleasantly - surprised to find my cube exactly as I left it in early March.

There was evidence of what would have been previously swiftly-performed maintenance being _deferred_ everywhere. A bathroom stall fit for a mime greeted me in one of the restrooms (mounting brackets for the panel present on floor and walls, minus the panel). A crack on the smoke deck that had been present for years was roped off ... but no repairs attempted. The 'automat' was stocked ... minimally ... which is more than I expected. Surprisingly, new awnings had been put up and there was new paint in the lobby and some of the carpet had been replaced - but that's on the landlord and they're likely seeing a modest bump in operating profit with less wear-and-tear on the facility, and might be anticipating a tenant vacating/downsizing.

I had hoped to be able to interact in person with a co-worker that routinely makes the trek, but they had something come up. So it was a quiet day of just me, working on one half of the floor with an entire 2 other people present in some ~10,000ft² of floorspace (the other ~30,000ft² on the other side likely being even less dense). And the lights off since the switches that energize the occupancy sensors seemingly hadn't been thrown for months.

Office policy for now is pretty simple: mask on when entering, exiting, or moving around the facility; mask off at your workstation and so long as you can socially distance from your peers. Given the low census and the sole reported instance of a site employee contracting COVID-19 several months ago - who hadn't been to the facility some >4 weeks prior to recovery - an occasional visit to the office is probably less risk than the megalomart.

I might drop in a few times a month because _man do I miss people_. I lean strongly towards introvert, but not so strongly that I enjoy this isolation.


----------



## turbodog

Keep your heads down. Numbers are going back up. MS today had a literal explosion of new cases, beyond anything I would have believed. Nationwide numbers are up significantly also.


----------



## bykfixer

markr6 said:


> Come on auto-correct. You've had nearly 10 months to learn.


----------



## turbodog

matrixshaman said:


> From the World Doctors Alliance ...



Really? Have we not moved past this kindergarten stuff yet? You want to see 'truth'? Check your local hospital employee coming off shift. Ask them how many ICU and isolation beds are in use.


----------



## bigburly912

turbodog said:


> Really? Have we not moved past this kindergarten stuff yet? You want to see 'truth'? Check your local hospital employee coming off shift. Ask them how many ICU and isolation beds are in use.



See what I mean now with the posts I was making. There is so much bad information out there people have turned to crap like that to find their truth. It’s the same with some of the “real experts”. And by that I mean real experts with real degrees and everyone force feeding so much information nobody knows what to believe. This poor guy...... 

One of my friends and his daughter have it now. She’s around 14 years old. Seem to be doing alright as of now but no energy. : (


----------



## Poppy

Ex NJ Governor Chris Christie, after spending 7 days in a NJ ICU now says he was "wrong to let his guard down, and he was wrong to not wear a mask." He now is encouraging everyone in the media to encourage everyone to wear masks... etc.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/po...ays-he-was-icu-7-days-battling-covid-n1243589


----------



## ledbetter

Poppy said:


> Ex NJ Governor Chris Christie, after spending 7 days in a NJ ICU now says he was "wrong to let his guard down, and he was wrong to not wear a mask." He now is encouraging everyone in the media to encourage everyone to wear masks... etc.
> https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/po...ays-he-was-icu-7-days-battling-covid-n1243589


Intelligent people learn from other people’s mistakes, average people learn from their own mistakes, and stupid people do not learn anything.


----------



## raggie33

I wish I wrote down what part of the year I had allergies . so I'd know if its covid or just allergies


----------



## turbodog

ledbetter said:


> Intelligent people learn from other people’s mistakes, average people learn from their own mistakes, and stupid people do not learn anything.



I think this thing going to have (and is) to get worse before it gets better.

MS removed the mask mandate a few weeks ago, saying cases are declining. Problem is, they were not... they had bottomed out 2 weeks prior and were on a substantial increase. It's been like a party since then. A lot of businesses have taken down their mask signage, businesses in cities with local mandates are the exception.


----------



## Poppy

raggie33 said:


> I wish I wrote down what part of the year I had allergies . so I'd know if its covid or just allergies


Just get tested, then you'll know.


----------



## Poppy

turbodog said:


> I think this thing going to have (and is) to get worse before it gets better.
> 
> MS removed the mask mandate a few weeks ago, saying cases are declining. Problem is, they were not... they had bottomed out 2 weeks prior and were on a substantial increase. It's been like a party since then. A lot of businesses have taken down their mask signage, businesses in cities with local mandates are the exception.


NJ was able to pride itself on beating the curve down to one of the lowest rates of infection in the nation from one of the highest. 

It created guidelines that if any state had a particular infection rate or number of new cases, each state would be put on a quarantine list. IF a person returned to NJ or entered NJ from a state on that list, the person had to quarantine for 14 days. This past week, NJ had such an increase it should be added to that list.

The NJ Governor stated that the increase is due to a few super-spreader events, but primarily due to an increase in small indoor house gatherings where people are letting their guard down.


----------



## bykfixer

Poppy, as the weather cools in the NE and people flock indoors more a rise in cases should not be a surprise. People can pass it outdoors, sure. But viruses poliferate (spelling?) better indoors. 


In my little 12x20 office this past summer I kept the climate control system fan on constant to keep fresh air circulating and had a small "squirrel cage" type table fan blowing air away from me (towards the exit). This winter we will practice the 6 foot rule, keep air circulating and keep the social circles as small as practical. Again, if people understand and practice avoiding a cold or flu then keeping this novel corona virus away is much more likely. But with all the treatments for cold and flu we tend to drop our guard so when the covid thing hit a lot of society was unprepared. 

Perhaps this winter won't wipe out as many fragile people since covid-19 already took them out. 

I saw a news report where a guy working with vaccines for years thinks there's a real good chance there may be a shot available for widespread use by Thanksgiving this year. https://www.facebook.com/161528283857490/posts/3722752594401690?vh=e&d=n&sfns=mo

Now this is good, but will we as a society be prepared for another pandemic in a few years if this "cure" happens so quickly? Or will we become complacent again? Covid-19, pffft that old thing? Just get the free shot with your free flu and pnuemonia shots and carry on.


----------



## idleprocess

bykfixer said:


> Now this is good, but will we as a society be prepared for another pandemic in a few years if this "cure" happens so quickly? Or will we become complacent again? Covid-19, pffft that old thing? Just get the free shot with your free flu and pnuemonia shots and carry on.



Hard to say, but I gather some new methods have been deployed on the development side to enable the rapid pace of research on the leading vaccine candidate that are apt to come in handy the next time something similar rears its head. The regulatory side is also prepared to perform a faster review. One hopes that efficacy and safety are both at least as high as most previous vaccines.


----------



## markr6

What a social drag this this tiny invisible thing created. No more shaking hands. When someone coughs you cringe like they're a dirty bum. I have a feeling this mask thing will be on-and-off for years, not months. I think we can put a knife in the "shop local" thing. Amazon and every other online seller is going at 120%. Whatever, things change.

I'm glad most of the schools here seem to be doing OK with most students in class. Are they spreading the virus more? Seems likely but I'm pretty sure no one really knows what the hell is going on. I mean NO ONE.


----------



## jtr1962

turbodog said:


> Really? Have we not moved past this kindergarten stuff yet? You want to see 'truth'? Check your local hospital employee coming off shift. Ask them how many ICU and isolation beds are in use.


Amen to that. My brother works in a NYC hospital as a pharmacy technician. At one point they had four refrigerated trailers of bodies outside. I was hearing ambulances outside all day. The 25,000 or so who died just in my city are great proof of just how real and dangerous this virus is. I only go to the local grocery store about once every two weeks. That's all I'm doing until we have a widely distributed vaccine. I'm so tired of all the misinformation being spread.


----------



## jtr1962

idleprocess said:


> Hard to say, but I gather some new methods have been deployed on the development side to enable the rapid pace of research on the leading vaccine candidate that are apt to come in handy the next time something similar rears its head. The regulatory side is also prepared to perform a faster review. One hopes that efficacy and safety are both at least as high as most previous vaccines.


Also, we might have permanent sanitary measures like far UV-C lights in public spaces. That will not only help with pandemics, but also with seasonal flu. So will better hand hygiene habits.


----------



## Empath

Matrixshaman, I've already advised you on this matter, and you've followed up with both editing the admin commentary and posting an additional post of the same type of content. I've removed both of your posts, and I'm repeating my original posted admonition.

This thread and this board isn't going to be used as a venue for conspiratorial views of the covid-19 pandemic. If there is a need to express such views, our Underground board is available, along with a wealth of other public resources. Your posts have been removed. - Empath


----------



## turbodog

jtr1962 said:


> Also, we might have permanent sanitary measures like far UV-C lights in public spaces. That will not only help with pandemics, but also with seasonal flu. So will better hand hygiene habits.



I hate to be living through this, but it's fascinating on many levels. What will be the public's new behavior in the future concerning masks when they need to go to the store but have sniffles/cough? There's the hand washing thing. Then less obvious but important measures like door handles you can open with an elbow instead of your hand.


----------



## raggie33

which is the number one rule do we do to stay negative covid ? hand cleaning?


----------



## Tejasandre

Social distancing


----------



## Tejasandre

Wait. Don’t breathe the virus.


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## nbp

raggie33 said:


> which is the number one rule do we do to stay negative covid ? hand cleaning?



Die of something else first.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Tejasandre said:


> Social distancing



This. I'm still not sold on masks. I've heard stories of people who always wore masks that still get infected with Covid.
I think people who are wearing masks get a false sense of security and forget to distance themselves. I don't think the spikes in infections could be thwarted by the addition of masks at all, only slowed down perhaps only a small amount. I also think people tire of wearing masks easily as I've been in many Walmart stores here locally and seen many people pull down their masks to talk and breath INCLUDING store employees. I think that distancing is the only easily done thing as constant handwashing can also be hard to do if you aren't toting your own booze supply on demand (hand sanitizer).


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## raggie33

im a ahead of the game i guess because im so anti social.


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## Chauncey Gardiner

nbp said:


> Die of something else first.


 
That won't matter. Your death will still be attributed to COVID.


----------



## idleprocess

Lynx_Arc said:


> This. I'm still not sold on masks. I've heard stories of people who always wore masks that still get infected with Covid.


And I've heard of people that got badly injured in pretty mundane car wrecks while wearing their seatbelts while others were miraculously spared injury in energetic wrecks being 'thrown free'. I wouldn't consider either the norm.

Healthcare workers get infected at an exceptionally high rate because of the realities of _occupational exposure_ and the practical difficulties of perfectly using even Level C PPE perfectly day in and day out. Frontline retail probably gets infected at markedly higher rates because of a high rate of interactions with a far broader slice of the public than the average person. The average person - or frontline retail - may not wear their PPE correctly/consistently, and its often improvised nature means that it may not prove sufficient when exposure is more than casual.



Lynx_Arc said:


> I think people who are wearing masks get a false sense of security and forget to distance themselves.


This I can generally agree with. I did as close to _true isolation_ as I could manage for March and most of April, but then the fatigue set in and I resumed something close to normal shopping patterns, and getting food to go. The latter involves time indoors in recirculating AC which is one of the riskier prospects insofar as COVID-19 infections go. In July after a couple bad bowl cuts I got my hair cut; I again am getting a tad shaggy and I'm not sure my meh trimmer is up to the job of a bad attempt at a fade. I went to the office this week out of _boredom_ and even went so far as to dine in a restaurant the same day for the first time since March, perhaps feeling a bit too cavalier.



Lynx_Arc said:


> I don't think the spikes in infections could be thwarted by the addition of masks at all, only slowed down perhaps only a small amount.


If the 'small amount' is meaningful, then it helps in the macro sense that maybe hospitals don't gen inundated and shut down nonessential treatments.



Lynx_Arc said:


> I also think people tire of wearing masks easily as I've been in many Walmart stores here locally and seen many people pull down their masks to talk and breath INCLUDING store employees. I think that distancing is the only easily done thing as constant handwashing can also be hard to do if you aren't toting your own booze supply on demand (hand sanitizer).


Based on my _informal survey_, mask usage in my region remains fairly consistent wherever I go - I'd estimate it's around 85%. During the Spring it was oftentimes as low as 25%, even as state and merchant mandates went into effect. I generally don't much concern myself with it anymore - I do my part and don't worry about the < 1/6 that don't.

I've had no issues wearing masks for shopping outings, but the trek to the office introduced me to the good old _panic attack_ that some experience every time I took the stairs. Consciously I knew that I was having no issues breathing, but the psychosomatic effect of modest resistance _plus_ something on my face _plus_ the slightest of constriction of my nasal passages was doing _*something*_ to my perception and I could just barely wait until I was at my desk to rip the thing off. I imagine that with some practice I could get over it, but even knowing what was likely happening, it was a concerning experience.

The impact of distancing indoors is going to vary depending on a host of factors. Generally, the more volume per person in a given space, the less that recirculation is apt to repeatedly expose you to the virus. My trip to the office with something like 3 people sharing some ~100,000 ft³ of volume (10,000 ft² x 10 ft to the drop ceiling or ~33,333 ft³ per person) probably less of an issue than 1,000 people at a typical Costco sharing ~3,468,000 ft³ of volume (~144,500 ft² x 24ft to the red iron or ~3,468 ft³ per person) is likely less of an issue than 10 people in a small 20,000 ft³ small store (2,000ft² x 10 ft to the drop ceiling or 2,000 ft³ per person).


----------



## harro

Well, as Victoria, Australia prepares to reduce restrictions after 15 odd weeks of lockdown, we had just one new recorded infection in the last 24 hours. Vic has a total population of about 6.5 Million people, with about 5 Million of those part of Melbourne and suburban surrounds. Our highest number of daily new infections was about 8 weeks ago, with 723 recorded. The absolute VAST majority of deaths were in the 70 - 100 years old age group, mostly nursing homes. Our total state death count attributed to C19 is about 850 for this lockdown. It is estimated there have been a further 550 odd suicides that can be attributed to the lockdown, whether as a direct result of, or the lockdown being the catalyst that tipped the balance. Regional areas of Victoria are divided from Melbourne by our Premier's ' Ring of Steel ' ( Marshmallow ), with dubious results at best. The idea being to protect regional Vic, where there have been remarkably few cases, with the exception of a few spot outbreaks, quickly bought under control.
Naturally, first thoughts are with the family and friends of those who's deaths have been attributed to Covid19, directly or otherwise. What has the lockdown done for this state? From a personal perspective?.......Well, we are now in debt so far, that it has been estimated that a child born today, would not live long enough to see the budget return to a surplus. Numerous class actions being bought against the state government in the main, for loss of income, personal hardship, blah blah blah. A state govt who, in recorded history, will go down as the most hated and despised ( our govt is predominately leftist and green ). It is also estimated that of the roughly 650,000 small - medium business's that existed 4 months ago, in the state, roughly 400,000 will remain. The majority of closures being hospitality, cafe's, eateries, pubs, tourism, travel, and so on. 
The hatred for very senior public servants, is palpable across the state, with so many botched schemes and lies and cover ups on the part of those public servants, right up to number one!! A ' normal Xmas ' is looking doubtful, with the current buzzwords being the likes of ' Covid normal ', ' new normal ', ' what once was ', and so on, being used in the main by those left of center. There is some pushback by the right, but by gee, its like trying to put out a bushfire with a garden hose.
Expected easing tomorrow, of restrictions, include Melbourne's travel limit to increase to twenty kms from a person's home, a few more people permitted to visit homes, weddings and funeral attendances up to about twenty and ten respectively, and maybe a few other consolations. Masks, social distancing, alcohol sanitizers to remain law everywhere but inside your own home. What will happen if the state reopens? Infections will rise naturally. The greatest fear is that the govt will plunge us into another statewide lockdown, rather than a localized lockdown to bring the outbreak under control. This unfortunately is how it will be, till a vaccine is widely available, and even then, thoughts are rightly divided on the value of such a vaccine. Did i hear scamdemic?, the great reset?, Rothschilds management and so on and so forth. Its all been bandied about here.

I wish all CPF members nothing but the best outcomes, wherever you may be. Please feel free to comment on my post, but remember, its only my observations. Keep it nice pls. As sure as eggs, in five or ten years, there will be another course changing event, and this one will pale into insignificance.

I'm off to finish my Glenfiddich on the rocks, then i may just indulge in one more of the same.

Cheers all from Victoria, Aus,
Mike.

I tell ya, if i had a 5lt of raggie's orange or cola flavoured sodastream mix, i'd have a bloody good go at finishing one of them off also ( STRAIGHT )!!!


----------



## bykfixer

harro, 
That is how a lot of America is being handled and how a lot of Americans feel. Some places it is spreading like a Nebraska wild fire. Other places hardly at all in comparision.


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## nbp

Thanks for the post. Quite interesting to get a boots on the ground view of an area that by all accounts has done a very good job of limiting spread.


----------



## Devildude

Harro, good idea. Sanitize from the inside out with a single malt. If it wasn't morning it would be an excellent idea. I always find it enjoyable to pour one and enjoy the wildlife that nature supplies.


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

nbp said:


> Thanks for the post. Quite interesting to get a boots on the ground view of an area that by all accounts has done a very good job of limiting spread.


 
By all accounts? They've limited the spread, but at what costs and for how long?


----------



## Lynx_Arc

idleprocess said:


> And I've heard of people that got badly injured in pretty mundane car wrecks while wearing their seatbelts while others were miraculously spared injury in energetic wrecks being 'thrown free'. I wouldn't consider either the norm.


 Trying to relate seat belts to masks is not a good analogy. There are very stringent standards required for seat belts with constant testing using crash test dummies and physics to ensure the effectiveness of them while there is no tests or standards for all but the high end N95 masks that are mostly available to health professionals. Almost nobody out there is wearing anything close to the N95 masks most are probably no better than a kleenex with 2 rubber bands on it. There is no extensive decades long government funded studies and manufacturing restrictions to keep standards up from throwaway 50 cent masks that most folks are wearing. It is like comparing a 6 year old playing ball to a professional athlete that has been practicing for another 12-15 years or more IMO.


> Healthcare workers get infected at an exceptionally high rate because of the realities of _occupational exposure_ and the practical difficulties of perfectly using even Level C PPE perfectly day in and day out. Frontline retail probably gets infected at markedly higher rates because of a high rate of interactions with a far broader slice of the public than the average person. The average person - or frontline retail - may not wear their PPE correctly/consistently, and its often improvised nature means that it may not prove sufficient when exposure is more than casual.


And most of these people aren't wearing the cheapest worst masks that are available they are using the top end masks that are more effective by probably a factor of 4-5 times and the masks still fail to protect.


> If the 'small amount' is meaningful, then it helps in the macro sense that maybe hospitals don't gen inundated and shut down nonessential treatments.


If the small amount is only 5-20% effectiveness and it encourages people to NOT distance properly and avoid situations that have a higher incident of infection then it can either cancel out the masks gains over even worse it can actually increase overall infection rates.


> Based on my _informal survey_, mask usage in my region remains fairly consistent wherever I go - I'd estimate it's around 85%. During the Spring it was oftentimes as low as 25%, even as state and merchant mandates went into effect. I generally don't much concern myself with it anymore - I do my part and don't worry about the < 1/6 that don't.


In our city we went to mask mandates and now went to masks even for 10 or older children and the surrounding cities that have no mask mandates are spiking slightly but our city is still spiking nearly the same with masks required. I can't see a statistical proof that masks are making that much of a difference overall but the politicians seem to think they are the holy grail of protection and don't mind people wearing anything over their face regardless of the quality of protection. 


> I've had no issues wearing masks for shopping outings, but the trek to the office introduced me to the good old _panic attack_ that some experience every time I took the stairs. Consciously I knew that I was having no issues breathing, but the psychosomatic effect of modest resistance _plus_ something on my face _plus_ the slightest of constriction of my nasal passages was doing _*something*_ to my perception and I could just barely wait until I was at my desk to rip the thing off. I imagine that with some practice I could get over it, but even knowing what was likely happening, it was a concerning experience.


 I have issues as I tend to walk in large stores all over the place at a quick pace and have to pull my mask down off my nose to keep from fogging up my glasses constantly as I cannot read the labels on things without my readers. I see others doing the same all over the place showing their nose to use glasses and that increases the chances of infection as from what I have heard one of the infection entry points is the nose.


> The impact of distancing indoors is going to vary depending on a host of factors. Generally, the more volume per person in a given space, the less that recirculation is apt to repeatedly expose you to the virus. My trip to the office with something like 3 people sharing some ~100,000 ft³ of volume (10,000 ft² x 10 ft to the drop ceiling or ~33,333 ft³ per person) probably less of an issue than 1,000 people at a typical Costco sharing ~3,468,000 ft³ of volume (~144,500 ft² x 24ft to the red iron or ~3,468 ft³ per person) is likely less of an issue than 10 people in a small 20,000 ft³ small store (2,000ft² x 10 ft to the drop ceiling or 2,000 ft³ per person).


Yes, theoretically we are going to see more crowded stores when the temperature drops uncomfortably outdoors in some regions which will pack in people and have less chances of social distancing properly. We will see large stores flood the main aisles with piles of boxes of merchandise that will funnel people close together eliminating distances required to SD properly. Walmart is a huge offender and the home improvement stores like Lowes and Home Depot you won't find 6 feet of area but maybe in a toilet stall in the bathroom where it is more likely to be infected anyway.
We are seeing the WHO now doing a 180 on lockdowns formerly saying that they are needed to now saying they are strongly not recommended. We were seeing no masks from the CDC and other sources and now we are seeing demanding masks. I see way, way, too much the experts don't know what they are talking about just tossing suggestions out there like throwing feces on the wall and seeing what sticks or maybe reading bones or tea leaves and predicting the effectiveness of their mandates. Until I see some sort of agency that starts requiring a certain level of quality of masks and improved construction and banning crappy masks I cannot take those in the health departments wearing N95 masks seriously. It is like the seat belt analogy telling people that they can use fishing line or bungee cord to tie themselves down in their vehicle as long as it slows their acceleration down in an accident all is good while those who are advocating the use of seat belts are using a harness that is required for racing in the Indy 500.


----------



## nbp

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> By all accounts? They've limited the spread, but at what costs and for how long?



I said they’ve done well at limiting spread; I didn’t mention anything else. And if you read how I wrote that more carefully, you will notice that by “boots on the ground view” I meant a realistic view of how people actually view the scenario, not just the results in the sense of the disease. 

Here, where things are very free and cases are very high, some seem to yearn for the low spread of places like Australia along with their considerable restriction. It’s interesting to hear that those in that area are getting frustrated with their restrictions despite the very good results with regard to the virus. It’s almost as if you can’t make people happy no matter what you do...


----------



## Hooked on Fenix

People who lost their jobs, can't afford to eat or pay their bills, lost their health insurance, and may be getting evicted from their homes don't take much solace in the fact that lockdowns may be keeping them safe from one thing as their circumstances make them contemplate suicide.


----------



## archimedes

nbp said:


> I said they’ve done well at limiting spread; I didn’t mention anything else. And if you read how I wrote that more carefully, you will notice that by “boots on the ground view” I meant a realistic view of how people actually view the scenario, not just the results in the sense of the disease....



We've just heard a very detailed and moving post from an "ultra-lockdown" approach region. Do we have any members from, say, Sweden willing to discuss their experiences in an area that took a quite different approach ?


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

nbp said:


> I said they’ve done well at limiting spread; I didn’t mention anything else. And if you read how I wrote that more carefully, you will notice that by “boots on the ground view” I meant a realistic view of how people actually view the scenario, not just the results in the sense of the disease.
> 
> Here, where things are very free and cases are very high, some seem to yearn for the low spread of places like Australia along with their considerable restriction. It’s interesting to hear that those in that area are getting frustrated with their restrictions despite the very good results with regard to the virus. It’s almost as if you can’t make people happy no matter what you do...



My thinking was that "by all accounts" should include those negatively effected by the actions of the government? First do no harm, comes to mind. How carefully did you read and consider what I wrote before penning the terse reply? :mecry:


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## turbodog

*I suggest viewing this as what it is, a war. We are literally at war with a pathogen.* The job issues, etc are *temporary *setbacks that a portion of the population deals with in order to prevent death, a *permanent *setback, in other portions.

If this was a war with troops and bullets, would you gripe about 'supporting the troops'?

I also remind everyone... we don't (and can't) know what the long term effect of c-19 are, even in healthy young hosts.

I find it embarrassing that the US is not having the same or better results as other developed countries. This has shown our ingrained problems with the healthcare, insurance, education, public health mgmt, and so on.

In the words of GOT, 'winter is coming'.


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner




----------



## archimedes

Very very few pathogens have been permanently eradicated throughout the entirety of the history of life on earth.


----------



## Greta

Reading through the previous several posts, one thing jumped out at me more than anything else...

Chance - you said "Do no harm". But there is another version of that.... "Do _KNOW_ harm". 

And I think that is most important right now. Exactly WHAT is doing more harm? Subjective, I know. Depends on many factors. No one is wrong.


----------



## jtr1962

turbodog said:


> I hate to be living through this, but it's fascinating on many levels. What will be the public's new behavior in the future concerning masks when they need to go to the store but have sniffles/cough? There's the hand washing thing. Then less obvious but important measures like door handles you can open with an elbow instead of your hand.


Same here. It's interesting, but at the same time it's like living in a disaster movie. I saw Contagion last year but never thought I would be living it in 2020. As for sanitary measures, for years I was already in the habit of washing cans and bottles after returning from the grocery store. It wasn't so much a fear of germs as the fact many were visible filthy. Now I wash down everything that can be washed down, which is everything except stuff which comes in boxes. In that case, there is usually a plastic bag inside, so I throw the box out, and wash the bag. I wonder if door handles and such will result in us seeing more "Star Trek" style sliding doors in public places? As for masks, I may very well wear one in many public places even once this is over. Mask wearing has actually been fairly prevalent in Asia since the SARS outbreak.


----------



## jtr1962

turbodog said:


> I find it embarrassing that the US is not having the same or better results as other developed countries. This has shown our ingrained problems with the healthcare, insurance, education, public health mgmt, and so on.


Yep. South Korea gave us a virtual blueprint for dealing with this. We ignored it. Now look at the results. Deaths per million people is 8.6 in South Korea and 676 in the US. If we had the same death rate as they did under 3,000 people would have died, not 220,000 or so and counting. The difference between countries which handled it very well, versus those that didn't, is practically two orders of magnitude.


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

Yesterday in Pierce County there were 72 new COVID cases. There was one death. People are going to continue becoming infected, but COVID-19 is not a death sentence. 

The "cure" should not be worse than the disease.


----------



## nbp

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> My thinking was that "by all accounts" should include those negatively effected by the actions of the government? First do no harm, comes to mind. How carefully did you read and consider what I wrote before penning the terse reply? :mecry:



To be honest my original post was just an innocuous Thanks to Harro for his comments. I didn’t mean much by it, I didn’t expect anyone to reply to it, and certainly didn’t mean to start any fights. 

I apologize if my wording was ambiguous or misleading. When I said “by all accounts” I simply meant that anyone looking at measures to slow spread would have to admit the Aussies have seemingly done a fine job at that. It would be hard to argue that. 

That said, I think my posts from the start of this thing have shown that I have tried to take a reasonably balanced middle of the road view on things. I have often mentioned that I can see the pros and cons to either view people might take whether that is restrictive lockdown or open business model, and that I don’t think any one approach can remotely satisfy the varied needs and situations of hundreds of millions of people. 

As you’re also a frequent poster in this topic I assumed you had read enough of my comments to understand my angle, and so maybe your comment was just meant to jab a bit at me for a making a post that could be perceived as taking the “Liberal/Dem” view. I think we both just misunderstood each other. Water under the bridge man.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> Yesterday in Pierce County there were 72 new COVID cases. There was one death. People are going to continue becoming infected, but COVID-19 is not a death sentence.
> 
> The "cure" should not be worse than the disease.


I agree with this. Bankrupting people to save mostly people who could die from a normal virus/flu this year anyway or to drop the chance of death from 0.1% to 0.05% of most folks is not a good bet IMO. Those who are at risks higher than 1% of death from this should not have to shut down the lives of everyone else if they are less than 1% of the population to begin with. This virus has 99% of the people hiding/distancing/masking and shut down to supposedly protect the 1% (or less). Imagine if we were to drop the speed limit to 30mph on all highways to save 100k lives a year from deaths on highways what it would cost everyone.


----------



## raggie33

well this is a flashlight forum so will uv flashlights really kill the virus?


----------



## PhotonWrangler

raggie33 said:


> well this is a flashlight forum so will uv flashlights really kill the virus?




Shortwave UVC = yes. Longwave UVA = no.


----------



## idleprocess

Lynx_Arc said:


> Trying to relate seat belts to masks is not a good analogy. There are very stringent standards required for seat belts with constant testing using crash test dummies and physics to ensure the effectiveness of them while there is no tests or standards for all but the high end N95 masks that are mostly available to health professionals. Almost nobody out there is wearing anything close to the N95 masks most are probably no better than a kleenex with 2 rubber bands on it. There is no extensive decades long government funded studies and manufacturing restrictions to keep standards up from throwaway 50 cent masks that most folks are wearing. It is like comparing a 6 year old playing ball to a professional athlete that has been practicing for another 12-15 years or more IMO.



Oh but it's a great analogy that expands on your initial statement that _I've heard stories of people who always wore masks that still get infected with Covid._ In the real world outlier sh_t happens, but it's also infrequent and thus doesn't much move the median outcome.

N95 is a NIOSH standard however there are numerous other standards that are so close as to be effectively equivalent. The trick is that the product has to comply with said standards - something that the consumer will have more difficulty ascertaining than healthcare procurement which can certify production and track chain-of-custody.

But top-tier PPE isn't so important - which I'll speak to next...



Lynx_Arc said:


> And most of these people aren't wearing the cheapest worst masks that are available they are using the top end masks that are more effective by probably a factor of 4-5 times and the masks still fail to protect.


Of important note _*occupational exposure* is orders of magnitude greater_ and suiting up perfectly every single day for weeks on end is difficult. Roll the dice often enough and the low probability of defenses failing against a high threat will eventually result in the failure of defenses.

But if you make a semiweekly trip to the megalomart where odds of an encountering infected person is low - and if so contact is fleetingly brief - you don't need a biohazard suit nor even a fitted half-face respirator with top-end cartridges. A pretty basic mask - ideally on both ends of the potential transmission path - should greatly improve the odds so long as you don't linger.



Lynx_Arc said:


> If the small amount is only 5-20% effectiveness and it encourages people to NOT distance properly and avoid situations that have a higher incident of infection then it can either cancel out the masks gains over even worse it can actually increase overall infection rates.


Pre COVID there weren't a lot of hospital beds available at any one point in time to the point that a large-scale accident on a highway or industrial disaster would spread patients to ER's throughout a region. Thus any measure that reasonably cuts into infections and the resultant yield of hospitalizations is useful.

I reject the moral hazard argument that mandating masks hurts things. _*Yes*_, people should absolutely stop hosting large social gatherings, hanging out in bars, engaging in in-person choir practice, and otherwise risky behaviors so that we can beat the numbers down in areas with high caseloads which is essentially 'population centers'. However, _defense in depth_ is a critical strategy and people do need to interact in person periodically, so mask up even if they're imperfect, avoid public gatherings, and limit your exposure when procuring necessary supplies.



Lynx_Arc said:


> In our city we went to mask mandates and now went to masks even for 10 or older children and the surrounding cities that have no mask mandates are spiking slightly but our city is still spiking nearly the same with masks required. I can't see a statistical proof that masks are making that much of a difference overall but the politicians seem to think they are the holy grail of protection and don't mind people wearing anything over their face regardless of the quality of protection.


Perfection is the enemy of the good, and the good only works when deployed to maximum effect. If your area is like mine, life has largely returned to normal with indoor public gathering places more or less doing business as usual. As I've stated repeatedly, the PPE the public is using is not useful for high-risk situations which seem to be driving the spread more than compliance with mask mandates and the relative effectiveness of bandanas vs N95 respirators.



Lynx_Arc said:


> I have issues as I tend to walk in large stores all over the place at a quick pace and have to pull my mask down off my nose to keep from fogging up my glasses constantly as I cannot read the labels on things without my readers. I see others doing the same all over the place showing their nose to use glasses and that increases the chances of infection as from what I have heard one of the infection entry points is the nose.


I tinkered with various arrangements for weeks before arriving at something that reduced fogging to a manageable level.

Complacency is however setting in and I too have seen store staff playing the nose hammock game or simply not bothering with masks at all. Toss in the start of flu season and small wonder cases are again on the rise.



Lynx_Arc said:


> Yes, theoretically we are going to see more crowded stores when the temperature drops uncomfortably outdoors in some regions which will pack in people and have less chances of social distancing properly.


The need for groceries is pretty constant. Restaurant patios might become less popular, however.


----------



## raggie33

PhotonWrangler said:


> Shortwave UVC = yes. Longwave UVA = no.


cool ty


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

nbp said:


> To be honest my original post was just an innocuous Thanks to Harro for his comments. I didn’t mean much by it, I didn’t expect anyone to reply to it, and certainly didn’t mean to start any fights.
> 
> I apologize if my wording was ambiguous or misleading. When I said “by all accounts” I simply meant that anyone looking at measures to slow spread would have to admit the Aussies have seemingly done a fine job at that. It would be hard to argue that.
> 
> That said, I think my posts from the start of this thing have shown that I have tried to take a reasonably balanced middle of the road view on things. I have often mentioned that I can see the pros and cons to either view people might take whether that is restrictive lockdown or open business model, and that I don’t think any one approach can remotely satisfy the varied needs and situations of hundreds of millions of people.
> 
> As you’re also a frequent poster in this topic I assumed you had read enough of my comments to understand my angle, and so maybe your comment was just meant to jab a bit at me for a making a post that could be perceived as taking the “Liberal/Dem” view. I think we both just misunderstood each other. Water under the bridge man.


 
I respect your opinions and do find them to be reasonably balanced and middle of the road. It wasn't so much a jab, merely a feint with the stated intention of calling attention to the use of "by *all* accounts". The Mercy emoji was intended as some comic relief. :wave: Bygones.


----------



## PhotonWrangler

raggie33 said:


> cool ty



I haven't seen any UVC flashlights on the market yet but I've seen a sudden influx of UVC sterilizing wands in the DIY stores. They use a tiny UVC germicidal fluorescent lamp with an inverter circuit. Some of them are built into a clamshell box for disinfecting cell phones. While UVC sterilization works well and has been used in hospitals for decades, there are a couple of catches. First, the disinfection isn't instant. It takes a little bit of time, with the duration depending on the lamp's output and the distance from the lamp to the target surface. Second, it can only disinfect what it can hit directly. If your surface has a blob of goo on it, the UVC light won't penetrate that material to disinfect what;s below it, so the surface to be disinfected has to be free of debris.


----------



## turbodog

Caution to be very skeptical of anything from the OANN website.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_America_News_Network

*Their list of confirmed false information/misinformation is _quite_ long.*

*I would honestly classify their 'news' as propaganda and subject for removal from CPF under the 'conspiracy theory' classification.*


----------



## turbodog

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> Yesterday in Pierce County there were 72 new COVID cases. There was one death. People are going to continue becoming infected, but COVID-19 is not a death sentence.
> 
> The "cure" should not be worse than the disease.



Given that deaths lag confirmed infection by ~4 weeks, you need to compare current deaths to last month's infections to be more accurate.


----------



## turbodog

Lynx_Arc said:


> I agree with this. Bankrupting people to save mostly people who could die from a normal virus/flu this year anyway or to drop the chance of death from 0.1% to 0.05% of most folks is not a good bet IMO. Those who are at risks higher than 1% of death from this should not have to shut down the lives of everyone else if they are less than 1% of the population to begin with. This virus has 99% of the people hiding/distancing/masking and shut down to supposedly protect the 1% (or less). Imagine if we were to drop the speed limit to 30mph on all highways to save 100k lives a year from deaths on highways what it would cost everyone.



We've got a real short memory...

As we've clearly seen, if allowed to spread unabated, it will overwhelm healthcare and cause plenty of unrelated deaths in the non-vulnerable population.

I find this line of thought particularly ironic. When we speak of socialized medicine, people whine about 'death panels'. Now, everywhere you turn, folks are saying to throw granny under the bus. *If we condemn death panels we should look in the mirror.*


----------



## raggie33

I'm so germ phobic everything someone else touched I have to disinfected it


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

turbodog said:


> Caution to be very skeptical of anything from the OANN website.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_America_News_Network
> 
> *Their list of confirmed false information/misinformation is _quite_ long.*
> 
> *I would honestly classify their 'news' as propaganda and subject for removal from CPF under the 'conspiracy theory' classification.*



Wikipeda?! Pot, kettle, black, turbodog. Pot, kettle, black!

OANN merely allowed the doctors a platform, thus allowing them to present their scientific and firsthand knowledge. Do you have any proof that they're not doctors and/or that they're lying? *Or, are you just wanting to silence any and all apposing views to your own? 
*
BTW, Utilizing larger than normal, and bold font, does *Not *increase the validity of one's opinion.




turbodog said:


> Given that deaths lag confirmed infection by ~4 weeks, you need to compare current deaths to last month's infections to be more accurate.



Mute and nonsensical point given that the infection rate is rising. 



turbodog said:


> We've got a real short memory...
> 
> As we've clearly seen, if allowed to spread unabated, it will overwhelm healthcare and cause plenty of unrelated deaths in the non-vulnerable population.
> 
> I find this line of thought particularly ironic. When we speak of socialized medicine, people whine about 'death panels'. Now, everywhere you turn, folks are saying to throw granny under the bus. *If we condemn death panels we should look in the mirror.*



Using the word "whine" is disingenuous at best, concerning the subject matter of death panels. Using it gives reason to take you much less seriously .... kinda like you citing wiki.


----------



## archimedes

It would be good to refocus on the issues and the discussion, rather than personalizing differing points of view.

Those following along and participating in this thread, thank you for your attention to this matter.


----------



## jtr1962

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> OANN merely allowed the doctors a platform, thus allowing them to present their scientific and firsthand knowledge. Do you have any proof that they're not doctors and/or that they're lying? *Or, are you just wanting to silence any and all apposing views to your own?*


I've spent a fair amount of time watching OANN until I just got sick of their misinformation. In short, they might as well be a propaganda ministry for the current administration. As for "opposing views", this isn't a case of pure opinion. There are expert views on what we should be doing to fight this pandemic based on medicine, science, and decades of prior experience. If we don't do these things, more people die and the disease spreads. turbodog's posts all seem to be based on good science.

You say the cure shouldn't be worse than the disease. That's a false dichotomy. Any economic damage inflicted by shutdowns can be mitigated with government intervention. The truth is we can't have an economy without first getting the disease under control. And until we have a widely distributed vaccine, masks and social distancing are what we have to do if we want to even partially reopen. If we keep refusing to do these things, and the case numbers go higher, we'll have to implement a complete shutdown again. What the US is doing now is like continually picking at a scab instead of letting it heal.

This isn't a case either of everyone having to suffer just to protect a small group who is a lot more vulnerable. We don't know much about this disease. It does affect all age groups, even if it affects the young far less. We don't know what kind of long-term effects those who supposedly recovered will have. The economic costs of letting it run rampant far exceed those of trying to mitigate it until we have a vaccine. And then there's the issue of hospitals getting overwhelmed. The case mortality rate is currently somewhere around 0.5% to 1%, but that assumes supportive care at hospitals for severe cases. If hospitals get overwhelmed, those numbers jump by a factor of 5 to 10, along with those who die unrelated deaths because they couldn't get medicare care. That could be 8 figures of deaths in the US alone. Think of the huge economic cost of that, plus the huge disruptions to supply lines if perhaps a third of the population is too sick to work. The side effects of that could dwarf the numbers killed by the disease itself. Even worse, the more the virus spreads the greater the chance it could mutate into something different. Most viral mutations result in lower mortality rates but it could go the other way. We'll be right back to square one.

The countries which handled this well followed science and medicine, and ignored the advice of laypeople. The US did the opposite. I hope a vaccine comes along soon because I'm not seeing anything else which will keep us from having at least a few million deaths over the next year or two.


----------



## turbodog

It's not hard to find plenty of legitimate sources condemning OANN, with proof. The only source I find saying OANN is legit, is OANN themselves. So, I recommend using caution for the source(s) that one gets information from, OANN or otherwise, covid or otherwise.

For that matter, any source that directs to facebook/youtube video automatically raises alarm bells.

If one is comparing deaths & infections it seems meaningful to compare deaths as a percent of infections. So today's deaths are infections from ~4 weeks back, give or take.


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## raggie33

It would be so great if we all could meet in person to dicuss all of this!. I feel face to face brings something extra to the conversation.. But for now I hope ya all stay healthy I truly love you all! I can't believe I've been on this forum for so long damn near 2 decades. Ps what s the best way to keep my immune system strong?


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## Chauncey Gardiner

Regardless of the people willing to provide the platform - are the doctors credible? If not, why not?


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> *Mute* and nonsensical point given that the infection rate is rising.



I used the wrong word. Should've used moot. turbodog informed me of my error and did it, to his credit, in a classy way. Via PM. :thumbsup:


----------



## jtr1962

raggie33 said:


> It would be so great if we all could meet in person to dicuss all of this!. I feel face to face brings something extra to the conversation.. But for now I hope ya all stay healthy I truly love you all! I can't believe I've been on this forum for so long damn near 2 decades. Ps what s the best way to keep my immune system strong?


Agreed but sadly face-to-face won't be an option for a while.  I'm an introvert but even for me this level of isolation is hard.


----------



## Katherine Alicia

raggie33 said:


> Ps what s the best way to keep my immune system strong?



There`s plenty of ways to assist and they all add up to a whole, but if you want to cut to the chase, then Glutathione, vit C, E,A and D (C and D being the most important), N-Acetyl Cysteine, Alpha Lipoic acid will really hit the "Turbo" button!


----------



## bykfixer

All news is manipulated to whichever team you prefer. Always has been since the founding of America. Probably before that. The trick is to take the time to listen to _opposing _sources. 

There's this famous story of a man who was a prophet and was said could perform miracles by some "news" accounts. He said things that got leaders upset. He was arrested and tried in public. One day the tradition of the crowd choosing between two convicted criminals going free, due to the "free press" getting the local citizenry riled up about this blasphemous prophet dude the crowd had a choice to free a murderer or a rabble rouser. They chose to set the murderer free and execute a man who's words were deemed offensive. 

I really enjoyed harro's perspective. It reminded me of the early period of this covid-19!pandemic in America. Government was picking winners and losers and at first Americans said "cool, as long as my elderly neighbor is saved from it". But then politics got involved and people began to turn on each other. Americas unique freedoms have been both a blessing and a curse. A balancing act between an over excited government and a free populace has magnified those issues. Some want to focus on the number of dead exclusively. Others tend to see that number as no big deal in comparision to the total number of cases. 

Often (not always) those saying "200k dead" are looking at it through a set of eyes of a person who has a steady job, solid living circumstances and has the 'luxury' of being able to predict their next meal. Some are those who ended up in the governments "loser" column. Life through their eyes is not as concerned necessarily on how many have perished but how they are going to feed the household while their governor says "your business or establishment is part of the problem". A case in point is two clothing stores in my town. Neither has an online store. One chose to start selling surplus foods like rice and pop tarts and were deemed essential while the other was forced to close. Guess which one has survived 6 months later. So store clerks, stockers, managers, vendors supplying the store, all were adversly affected. Could they just simply go get another job when there are around 100 people applying for each one open in the area? Could they just uproot and move to where the jobs are? Did that little $1200 check from uncle Sam solve the problem when the note on the home alone is that much each month? Should that family be as concerned about fragile Americans being kept alive by big pharma be concerned that a hospital in the next town over might be full to capacity when their cupboard is nearly empty? 

It's all about perspective. When you've not only walked in another person shoes, but felt their blisters you can honestly have opinion of how that person should feel. Until then it's all conjecture driven by a narrative of propganda for one side or the other. Nothing more, nothing less. 

Stay 6' apart, wash your hands, don't touch your face. 99.9% of us will get through this.


----------



## Poppy

Nicely put bykfixer.

Regarding that video linked to by Chance: I could only watch about 5 minutes of it. When the doctor switched from medical opinion to Constitutional issues, she lost all credibility with me. 

IMO, she was credible, when she used other sources to back up her statement that "masks do not protect you from getting infected." That is something that we have been told from the beginning. We don't hear that so much anymore, other than "Wear a mask!" 

In another thread, or maybe it was this one, there was a short discussion on literacy (or rather illiteracy) in America. The percentage of people who can not comprehend complex issues is astounding. I believe that more people wear a mask to protect themselves, than to protect others (should they be an asymptomatic spreader.) Honestly, I don't think I am an asymptomatic spreader, (I've been tested 3 times, each time negative) and don't want to wear a mask. I do when I go to a store, and am indoors. Yes, I believe that there is a slight protection in wearing one, slight. But I wear it for a few reasons. 
1. mandated/requested 
2. it is socially acceptable, and socially encouraged.
3. by participating (by wearing a mask in public) I am encouraging others to wear a mask, and some of those will be asymptomatic spreaders.
I therefore am indirectly helping to reduce the rate of spread.

The experts say that wearing a mask slows the rate of infection, by reducing the sheer volume of virus particles in the air (some of the moisture droplets, containing virus will get caught in the mask). That is what the "wear a mask" movement is all about. Slow the infection rate until there is a vaccine.

IMO those who continue to argue the point that masks protect the wearer, are missing the point, and in fact prove my next point.

Many people wear masks to protect themselves. To control the rate of infection, the experts want people to wear masks, therefore to drive home the fact that masks will not protect the wearer, will undermine their efforts to get people to wear them.


----------



## turbodog

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> Regardless of the people willing to provide the platform - are the doctors credible? If not, why not?



Poppy made it farther into the video than I could. I called it at 3 minutes.

Red flags which immediately called credibility into question:

Intro was 'medical professionals', not doctors. Woman called Fauci a derogatory name 'emperor' then proceeds to cherry pick comments (without full context) from few sources.

I'm sorry, but like I said several days ago... do we really need confirmation that masks will protect from an airborne contagion? Even to a limited degree?

I'm not a doctor but we have several in my immediate family. We also have plenty of RN, BSN, MHS, and other degreed and heavily experienced professionals. I also have many MDs as clients. Anytime I ask them about medical/science issues they speak in a certain way... all of them. I figure it's due to education, experience, and professionalism. After just a few seconds of hearing the woman speak I had all sort of warning bells going off in my head.

My opinion... her speech was 90% propaganda.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

idleprocess said:


> Oh but it's a great analogy that expands on your initial statement that _I've heard stories of people who always wore masks that still get infected with Covid._ In the real world outlier sh_t happens, but it's also infrequent and thus doesn't much move the median outcome.


I just don't buy the mask bit..... there is way too much going on to decide that they work well and way way too much media hype and political grandstanding involved with it all to not taint any statistical evidence.


----------



## jtr1962

@Poppy,

The experts don't just recommend wearing masks in isolation and going about your business as usual. It's in combination with washing your hands, social distancing and avoiding being indoors for as long as possible with people whose infection status is unknown. Now that we're seeing the virus may be transmitted much further than six feet we may well revise the distancing guidelines up. Fact is even the experts are still learning about this, which unfortunately means an inconsistent set of messages to the general public. Not helping matters is the poor education level of the American people in general, and their even poorer science education. Those who understand science realize the guidelines may well change as we learn more about this virus.

Another overlooked way to mitigate the spread is to reduce the number of times you go into communal settings. Prior to the pandemic, I was in the habit of going to the local grocery store 3 to 5 times per week. I bought whatever I could hand carry home. Now I go every 10 to 14 days, and load up the shopping cart each time. The cumulative time in the store going less often is far less than going more often. I also go about 15 or 20 minutes before they close. The aisles are virtually empty. I'm in and out in maybe 15 minutes.

There's also viral load. Fact is all of us have probably been exposed to the virus no matter how good our precautions. However, the recommendations I give here minimize your viral load when you are exposed. We're not sure exactly how many viral particles it takes to become infected, but below a certain threshold you won't get sick. Medical professionals become sick more often, even wearing PPEs, because they're exposed to high viral loads day in and day out. However, without the PPEs even more would become sick. Also, as you've pointed out, the mask reduces the volume of virus particles an infected person puts into the air, which makes it less likely they will infect others.

I also think things have become needlessly politicized. And that's the fault of the way we're set up to deal with emergencies. I really think elected officials should be out of the loop in emergencies like this. Instead, once a pandemic is declared by experts, the recommendations by those experts to mitigate it will have the force of law. This will get politicians off the hook, so to speak, while allowing much more rapid response.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

jtr1962 said:


> I also think things have become needlessly politicized. And that's the fault of the way we're set up to deal with emergencies. I really think elected officials should be out of the loop in emergencies like this. Instead, once a pandemic is declared by experts, the recommendations by those experts to mitigate it will have the force of law. This will get politicians off the hook, so to speak, while allowing much more rapid response.


What has happened is politicians "in charge" go expert shopping and find one that they agree with and "pass the buck" to that expert and when things go south neither the expert or the politician are held accountable as the expert too often is ALSO parroting another expert's opinion who in turn parrots the CDC or WHO or whatever who IMO are entrenched politically or economically so we get propaganda instead of science. They did that here in our city our mayor bought into the head of the health department who bought into the CDC guidelines and none of them are really doing much but falling in line and if the CDC says that eating radishes reduces the virus infection rates then the health department official would desire to mandate radish eating and the mayor would fall in line when we have a spike and everyone would have to buy and eat radishes or be banned from shopping and/or doing business.


----------



## jtr1962

bykfixer said:


> I really enjoyed harro's perspective. It reminded me of the early period of this covid-19!pandemic in America. Government was picking winners and losers and at first Americans said "cool, as long as my elderly neighbor is saved from it". But then politics got involved and people began to turn on each other. Americas unique freedoms have been both a blessing and a curse. A balancing act between an over excited government and a free populace has magnified those issues. Some want to focus on the number of dead exclusively. Others tend to see that number as no big deal in comparision to the total number of cases.


The virus was picking winners and losers, not the government. Those businesses which had to close were those which experts deemed more likely to spread the virus.



> Often (not always) those saying "200k dead" are looking at it through a set of eyes of a person who has a steady job, solid living circumstances and has the 'luxury' of being able to predict their next meal. Some are those who ended up in the governments "loser" column. Life through their eyes is not as concerned necessarily on how many have perished but how they are going to feed the household while their governor says "your business or establishment is part of the problem".


Here's the problem with this perspective. The implicit assumption here is if government didn't force nonessential businesses to close that they would still be operating at 100%. Truth is regardless of what the government did or didn't do once people started dying fear would keep many businesses empty, or close to it. That's especially true of businesses in the hospitality industry. The end result may well have been practically the same for those in non-essential businesses even if the government allowed them to stay open. Except of course the hospitals would now have even more cases to deal with. As I've said already until we get the virus under control we can't have any semblance of an economy.



> Did that little $1200 check from uncle Sam solve the problem when the note on the home alone is that much each month? Should that family be as concerned about fragile Americans being kept alive by big pharma be concerned that a hospital in the next town over might be full to capacity when their cupboard is nearly empty?


This problem easily could have been mitigated if the government gave more direct support to people. People shouldn't have to choose between eating and being forced to go to a job where they may well catch covid and get sick, possibly die. Other countries gave more direct support to people. We should have been sending people $1200 a month, not a one-time payment of $1200. Instead, this became politicized, just like mask wearing.

We also should have encouraged people to save. Those countries which had fewer people suffering from this are typically countries like Japan where people save large amounts out of force of habit. Had most Americans done this, major stimulus spending wouldn't have been needed.

I read and enjoyed harro's post also but I take issue with this part:

_"What has the lockdown done for this state? From a personal perspective?.......Well, we are now in debt so far, that it has been estimated that a child born today, would not live long enough to see the budget return to a surplus."_

If Australia is anything like the US, chances are their government was already heavily in debt pre-pandemic. Sure, the US national debt rose a few trillion as a result of covid stimulus measures but prior to that it was already in the $20 trillion area. Considering we just went through about a decade of prosperity there is no reason for this. We should have had a national surplus, not a national debt. If Australia is run the same way, then anything a child born now will have to pay is mostly the result of decisions made pre-pandemic.


----------



## jtr1962

Lynx_Arc said:


> What has happened is politicians "in charge" go expert shopping and find one that they agree with and "pass the buck" to that expert and when things go south neither the expert or the politician are held accountable as the expert too often is ALSO parroting another expert's opinion who in turn parrots the CDC or WHO or whatever who IMO are entrenched politically or economically so we get propaganda instead of science. They did that here in our city our mayor bought into the head of the health department who bought into the CDC guidelines and none of them are really doing much but falling in line and if the CDC says that eating radishes reduces the virus infection rates then the health department official would desire to mandate radish eating and the mayor would fall in line when we have a spike and everyone would have to buy and eat radishes or be banned from shopping and/or doing business.


The key here is to follow the guidelines of a consensus of experts, not just one or two. Do only those things which practically every expert recommends doing. If we had done this, the virus may well have not even came to the US in large numbers in the first place. Remember other developed countries dealt with this far, far better than us.

Not mentioned in this thread is what we should be doing to keep novel viruses from developing in the first place. Factory farming, wildlife trade, and wet markets are all to blame. We should be discussing this so in ten years we won't have to go through this again.


----------



## idleprocess

Lynx_Arc said:


> I just don't buy the mask bit..... there is way too much going on to decide that they work well and way way too much media hype and political grandstanding involved with it all to not taint any statistical evidence.



The relative efficacy of masks is _*quite far*_ from unknowable; the wildcards are things like degrees of compliance, exposure, maintenance. I do agree that _teach the controversy_ has done wonders to cloud the issue with large swaths of the public.

And as has been stated prior...



turbodog said:


> I'm sorry, but like I said several days ago... do we really need confirmation that masks will protect from an airborne contagion? Even to a limited degree?



I'll take a barrier with a reasonable chance of intercepting water droplets between myself and others over nothing when I'm out in public, especially since my county has been a hotspot of cases in the state and that curve is again rising. I've heard 30% odds of the wearer's mask - _and a cloth mask at that_ - intercepting a dose analogous to a sneeze in the face; I'll take ~1/3 odds on a _saving throw_ vs 0/3.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

jtr1962 said:


> The key here is to follow the guidelines of a consensus of experts, not just one or two. Do only those things which practically every expert recommends doing. If we had done this, the virus may well have not even came to the US in large numbers in the first place. Remember other developed countries dealt with this far, far better than us.
> 
> Not mentioned in this thread is what we should be doing to keep novel viruses from developing in the first place. Factory farming, wildlife trade, and wet markets are all to blame. We should be discussing this so in ten years we won't have to go through this again.


The problem is when most experts are clueless the "consensus" is a bunch of clueless "experts". In other words when you have a consensus of parrots the only advice you can get is "polly wanna cracker" or thereabouts. 
I doubt with a world this size and greed and stupidity you are going to ever totally stop viruses from spreading. The problem is 2 fold: Without some minor viruses and flues spreading our immune systems would not be "trained" well to combat them when they do come along and we have little to no control over other countries practices that encourage diseases from developing and spreading and with inept and corrupt organizations such as the WHO who are depended on to police the world..... we are at great risk of it all and have to play defense against outside infectious diseases.


----------



## jtr1962

Lynx_Arc said:


> The problem is when most experts are clueless the "consensus" is a bunch of clueless "experts". In other words when you have a consensus of parrots the only advice you can get is "polly wanna cracker" or thereabouts.
> I doubt with a world this size and greed and stupidity you are going to ever totally stop viruses from spreading. The problem is 2 fold: Without some minor viruses and flues spreading our immune systems would not be "trained" well to combat them when they do come along and we have little to no control over other countries practices that encourage diseases from developing and spreading and with inept and corrupt organizations such as the WHO who are depended on to police the world..... we are at great risk of it all and have to play defense against outside infectious diseases.


Nearly all viruses are harmless or nearly harmless to humans, so no need at all to stop them from spreading. The key is to control the few that are known to inflict harm and for which we have no cures. If there were inexpensive, effective cures for covid-19, then it wouldn't be necessary to take measures to slow the spread.

As for most experts being clueless, that's not true by a mile. Our knowledge of this virus is evolving, as are our tools to deal with it. The advice will change from month to month, but that's to be expected. I'll take even educated guesses by experts over advice given by laypeople.


----------



## jtr1962

turbodog said:


> Poppy made it farther into the video than I could. I called it at 3 minutes.
> 
> Red flags which immediately called credibility into question:
> 
> Intro was 'medical professionals', not doctors. Woman called Fauci a derogatory name 'emperor' then proceeds to cherry pick comments (without full context) from few sources.
> 
> I'm sorry, but like I said several days ago... do we really need confirmation that masks will protect from an airborne contagion? Even to a limited degree?
> 
> I'm not a doctor but we have several in my immediate family. We also have plenty of RN, BSN, MHS, and other degreed and heavily experienced professionals. I also have many MDs as clients. Anytime I ask them about medical/science issues they speak in a certain way... all of them. I figure it's due to education, experience, and professionalism. After just a few seconds of hearing the woman speak I had all sort of warning bells going off in my head.
> 
> My opinion... her speech was 90% propaganda.


Well, I got 4 minutes in but the same red flags went up for me. Her shrill tone didn't help matters. Experts don't talk like that. Listen to Fauci or Birx and compare that to her. This piece is typical of the stuff OANN puts out. They did a few pieces on hydroxychloroquine, touting its effectiveness and the refusal of hospitals to use this so-called "miracle" cure. In short, this video is a propaganda piece.


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

turbodog said:


> Poppy made it farther into the video than I could. I called it at 3 minutes.
> 
> Red flags which immediately called credibility into question:
> 
> Intro was 'medical professionals', not doctors. Woman called Fauci a derogatory name 'emperor' then proceeds to cherry pick comments (without full context) from few sources.
> 
> I'm sorry, but like I said several days ago... do we really need confirmation that masks will protect from an airborne contagion? Even to a limited degree?
> 
> I'm not a doctor but we have several in my immediate family. We also have plenty of RN, BSN, MHS, and other degreed and heavily experienced professionals. I also have many MDs as clients. Anytime I ask them about medical/science issues they speak in a certain way... all of them. I figure it's due to education, experience, and professionalism. After just a few seconds of hearing the woman speak I had all sort of warning bells going off in my head.
> 
> My opinion... her speech was 90% propaganda.



Most people seek that which reenforces their firmly held beliefs. Human nature. It's a shame you didn't watch the whole video. 

Are you aware people earn doctorates in all the sciences? From whom do you seek medical advice and treatment, medical professionals or doctors of engineering, math, political science ...?


----------



## turbodog

When my BS detector is in the red I don't see a reason to continue. If my BS detector was green, but my 'feelings' detector was in the red I would have continued.

It smacks of illegitimacy when the reporter/host calls them medical professionals... it's a way of weaseling out of who they actually are. We saw white coats. Folks could have been anyone. And if they were ALL Medical Doctors it paid them a disservice.

And I circle back to her name calling of 'emperor' Fauci. If there's one group that ALWAYS calls a MD by 'doctor' it's other doctors.

I think we are past the mask 'debate' at this time.


----------



## idleprocess

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> It's a shame you didn't watch the whole video.



It's _36 minutes_ long. Thank you, but _*no*_ I've got higher-priority demands for my time - especially when the same material could be condensed to a 5-10 minute read.


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

turbodog said:


> When my BS detector is in the red I don't see a reason to continue. If my BS detector was green, but my 'feelings' detector was in the red I would have continued.


I thoroughly enjoyed that explanation, and have no reason to believe you're not capable of discerning which is which.


----------



## ledbetter

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> Most people seek that which reenforces their firmly held beliefs. Human nature. It's a shame you didn't watch the whole video.
> 
> Are you aware people earn doctorates in all the sciences? From whom do you seek medical advice and treatment, medical professionals or doctors of engineering, math, political science ...?


Political Science is an oxymoron.


----------



## bykfixer

I wear a mouth and nose cover so that the people who work in the store I'm in don't get in trouble. I used to wear one in the early days of flatten the curve, long before mandates. Between the unknowns and my allergies I did not know if I was a typhoid Marty so I just wore one. I really don't care if Bob or Jane do or not because they are going to be at least 6 feet away from my happy arse anyway. 

My little dental mask says "covid-19 sucks"……


----------



## KITROBASKIN

The state of New Mexico has once again tightened restrictions because of an increase of COVID. We have a state population of a little more than 2 million, there have been 934 deaths (I have no way of knowing the accuracy of those numbers) attributed to the virus (.047%, right? ) and current hospitalizations of 171 (the list I found reported about 3900 staffed beds in hospitals). 

The depression, low motivation and lack of academic performance I see through Google Meets is palpable. Adult educators who were already burnouts and slackers are sitting-pretty at home. Adults who care, are facing the challenge, learning as they go and fighting the good fight. The students I see who were struggling before the lockdown, are in worse shape now, with poor quality home internet creating horrible, horrible frustration added on to the difficulty learning the basics of reading and math. Online academic programs are working OK for some, but not these kids. Mental health is taking a hit. Weight gain from lack of exercise is evident. 

One of the most incredible sights though, is to see Kindergarten class through a Google Meet. Every student frame is a bundle of kinetic being, learning the skill/impediment of containment. 

The difficulty of bringing students back to school is logistically daunting, and we are learning from the early-adopter districts. 

Thanks for listening.


----------



## Hooked on Fenix

Let's get some facts straight. A mask does not protect you directly from getting corona virus. The virus is so small, N95 masks and HEPA filters can fail getting the virus out of the air. Other people's masks and social distancing protects you to a degree. They limit the amount of viral load into the air, but do not eliminate the risk completely. Once the virus is in the air in your vicinity, your only effective protection would be a hazmat suit. Let's not kid ourselves. This virus can be deadly, but it can be treated, especially if dealt with quickly. It does seem to affect the elderly and those with preexisting conditions far more than healthy and young people. I think we should be allowed to evaluate that risk on a personal level and make a decision for ourselves whether or not we lock down, wear masks, or avoid work. Having no restrictions on certain protests while churches are getting fines and shut down isn't helping. The law has to be applied equally, or it's unconstitutional. That goes for picking winners and losers in business as well. Nowhere in the law does it give the government the right to name some businesses essential and some not, especially when they make exceptions for their own. You cannot shut down gyms in a state except for ones exclusive to government workers. We can't allow only a few select politicians to get haircuts while it's illegal for everyone else. This hypocrisy shows everyday people that the politicians need to end these lockdowns soon or risk liability from lawsuits and find new jobs. For many, the cure has become worse than the disease. Protections for renters are running out and didn't cover those under leases. In most cases, property owners had little to no protection and in many cases had to keep their renters rent free while still having to pay their property taxes. Unemployment coverage ran out. We are seeing a permanent shift away from people living in cites to living in larger homes in more sparse areas with Wi-Fi and Zoom. People are voting with their feet knowing they can take their paychecks with them. There is no incentive to move to a city with draconian lockdowns, everything closed, no school, and increasing crime. If you are going to be locked down at your house, you'll want a bigger house with a yard for outdoor activities unencumbered by a mask. This puts cities on lockdown into a financial death spiral. Before this is over, there is a possibility that the lockdowns could cause financial collapse of entire nations. There is a risk that the subsequent unrest could cause more deaths than the virus. We need to end the nanny state mentality before we wake up to find ourselves in a totalitarian dictatorship. It's time to get out of the diapers and fire the nanny.


----------



## jtr1962

@Hooked on Fenix,

Your post sums up exactly why the US failed miserably to deal with this while many other countries had success. Instead of just initially buckling down and doing what we had to do we decided to make this a referendum on freedom, except now thanks to our failure to control it people actually have less freedom because many of the things they used to do have a good chance of making them sick. The problem with the type of thinking you're espousing here is that nobody lives in a vacuum. People deciding what to do based only on their "personal risk" is such a flawed policy that it isn't even funny. For starters, how do you even know your personal risk? I know I don't. Healthy people have died from this and 110 year olds have survived. You don't know what will happen until you get it. And whether or not treatments exist is moot if hospitals get overwhelmed to the point they did in NYC and Italy where doctors were doing triage for a while.

Next, even assuming you can know something like your personal risk you don't know if you're an asymptomatic carrier. The more people ignore guidelines, the more the virus spreads. That means even people who are trying to be careful and rarely venture out, like myself, now have a much greater chance of contracting it when buying groceries, or even opening a package or letter, because of people making decisions on their own, instead of following guidelines. If this was something that affected you and only you, like wearing or not wearing a seat belt, I'd say go for it and do what you want. Unfortunately, that's not the case.

Next, I'll readily admit I'm not happy with how some guidelines have been applied inconsistently. If there's a ban on large gatherings, then we shouldn't have protests, either, nor should our President be having these rallies. And "essential business" should basically mean ones which are necessary for people to get essential supplies or services. Nonessential businesses shouldn't be open only to the politicians or the connected or government workers. Either it's closed for everyone or open for everyone.

As for the financial difficulties many are in, this is really where the politicians have failed miserably. On day one they should have had a plan to replace lost income until businesses could safely reopen. But in any case a lot of the blame for the situation we're in lies with the people themselves. If we had followed guidelines and gotten case numbers down to very low levels, we could have already mostly reopened if we had a system of testing and contact tracing in place. In fact, South Korea used those things to largely avoid shut downs.


----------



## jtr1962

Two articles which are very relevant to this topic:

This one is on the death of expertise:

https://thefederalist.com/2014/01/17/the-death-of-expertise/

To a large extent this is a big part of the reason why the US has handled the pandemic so poorly.

And here is a guide to the emergency powers of the US government:

https://www.heritage.org/the-constitution/commentary/constitutional-guide-emergency-powers

Despite what some have said, nothing being done is even remotely unconstitutional. The government has broad powers to act in an emergency, including restrictions on travel and business.


----------



## bykfixer

HoF, I concur. 

Dennis Miller tried to warn us a long time ago. Rough times face us like most can't or won't imagine in America and we did it to ourselves. This pandemic thing? Pffft, this is nothing compared to the perils that await if we don't figure out our government is not the solution.

I like it to "welcome to 1984. We have free milk and cookies here".


----------



## idleprocess

Hooked on Fenix said:


> Let's get some facts straight. A mask does not protect you directly from getting corona virus. The virus is so small, N95 masks and HEPA filters can fail getting the virus out of the air.



The ' mosquito through a chain-link fence' analogy is flawed.

While the occasional viral particle might be ejected into the air freebird, the overwhelming majority ride in water droplets many orders of magnitude larger that even a T-shirt or bandana will intercept. It takes some ~3000 viral particles ingested at once via a common pathway for an infection to take root. In the case of quality filter media - N95, KN95, FFP2.5, PM2.5, etc - the depth of a 'pore' relative to the width is substantial and electrostatic forces attract particles that are smaller than the pores into the media, accounting for the occasional free-floating viral particles as well as smaller aerosol water droplets.


----------



## Hooked on Fenix

jtr1962 said:


> Despite what some have said, nothing being done is even remotely unconstitutional. The government has broad powers to act in an emergency, including restrictions on travel and business.



First, states put limits on emergency powers as does the federal government. They usually have a time limit for emergency declarations before an executive (governor or president) has to get approval from the legislature to continue the order or end it. The president can declare war but has to get Congress' approval to pay for and continue the war after 90 days. Many states have similar laws in place for emergency declarations putting a time limit before they expire unless the legislature consents to extend them. Many state governors, California's included have decided to keep renewing the same executive order as if it's a different one without the legislature's consent. This is unconstitutional and illegal and is being challenged in the courts. Second, don't tell me that shutting down all churches and gun shops in a state isn't unconstitutional. It clearly is and is also being challenged in court. A law has to be equally applied or it can be deemed illegal. Don't tell me these laws have been equally applied when they pick winners and losers. You can't restrict the rights of one group more than that of another and you can't arbitrarily call one business essential and another not and provide no remedy to add businesses to the essential list. States and the federal government are prohibited from making laws punishing specific groups of people or individuals (bill of attainder), making laws and punishing someone for it after the fact (ex post facto law), or making laws violating the obligation of contracts. These restrictions are under Article 1 Sections 9 and 10 of the U.S. Constitution. There have been plenty examples of these restrictions being violated.


----------



## turbodog

jtr1962 said:


> ...
> 
> This one is on the death of expertise:
> 
> https://thefederalist.com/2014/01/17/the-death-of-expertise/
> 
> ...
> 
> Despite what some have said, nothing being done is even remotely unconstitutional. The government has broad powers to act in an emergency, including restrictions on travel and business.



I recommend reading the whole book if you are interested.

Also, yup, gov't has BROAD powers in an emergency. Our local health department has ARREST powers right now. And violating a quarantine is a FELONY.


----------



## LeanBurn

I am just glad that there have been zero regular flu deaths in 2020 as it has been cured. Finally some good news ! :thumbsup:


----------



## turbodog

Hooked on Fenix said:


> ... executive order as if it's a different one without the legislature's consent. This is unconstitutional and illegal and is being challenged in the courts. ...



Legally I would say there is good precedent dating back to the war powers act.

Also, people are getting hung up on the governor's orders. I think it's moot. Your state board of health has very broad powers in a public health emergency. At least here... they can enact all sorts of restrictions without the governor's approval.

Yes, this will be litigated for the next 10 years. But right now... with the surge ramping up (and winter coming), good luck.

Finally... paragraphs are your friend.


----------



## jtr1962

Hooked on Fenix said:


> Second, don't tell me that shutting down all churches and gun shops in a state isn't unconstitutional. It clearly is and is also being challenged in court. A law has to be equally applied or it can be deemed illegal. Don't tell me these laws have been equally applied when they pick winners and losers. You can't restrict the rights of one group more than that of another and you can't arbitrarily call one business essential and another not and provide no remedy to add businesses to the essential list.


That's all addressed here.

The restrictions typically prohibit mass gatherings of people, especially indoors where the spread is at least an order of magnitude higher. Stadiums were closed, along churches, restaurants, gyms, etc. Also, any business which could function remotely, whether essential or not, was allowed to keep operating. The hard fact is whether the government shuttered certain businesses or not they were going to suffer. Do you really think hordes of people would be patronizing these businesses once they saw they were basically superspreaders? However, by keeping them open the employees of these businesses would likely become sick, adding to the already high caseload in many hospitals. I don't like the idea of cutting off someone's livelihood any more than the next person, but this is a major health emergency. As I've said several times already, the major failure was not giving people income support while they couldn't earn a living. One $1200 check doesn't cut it.

Remember also the highest duty of government is to defend our shores against enemies foreign and domestic. This virus is best thought of as an invading enemy. I'm fine with any restrictions the government imposes until the time comes that we have mass vaccinations and new cases drop to near zero. At that point I'll certainly support anyone who is against continuing the current restrictions, but my guess is they will be voluntarily lifted once they're no longer necessary.


----------



## turbodog

And building on that... the quickest way to prolong this is to try and reopen fully too quickly.

I was surprised, but pleased, that a statewide mask mandate was actually able to keep the numbers in MS in check. We were able to have restaurants open, bars open, theaters open, and so on.

Then the governor removed the mask mandate... and numbers are exploding.


----------



## Hooked on Fenix

My guess is the restrictions will ease off after the election. The disparity between how the churches have been treated vs. protests doesn't give politicians a leg to stand on legally and they know it. I think some benefit politically from having people suffering by pointing to federal leadership to blame. I would hope our politicians weren't so sinister, but all evidence is to the contrary. A lot of people have a lot of mistakes to answer for. Some will lose their jobs by getting voted out and some will be sued. The government can't afford to replace all the lost revenue from all the businesses it destroyed though it is solely to blame for all of them. They are getting stingy with money which means they're running out of it. The economy has to start opening up again for our country to function. We can't go on like this forever with these lockdowns. Something's got to give.


----------



## markr6

idleprocess said:


> The ' mosquito through a chain-link fence' analogy is flawed.
> 
> While the occasional viral particle might be ejected into the air freebird, the overwhelming majority ride in water droplets many orders of magnitude larger that even a T-shirt or bandana will intercept. It takes some ~3000 viral particles ingested at once via a common pathway for an infection to take root. In the case of quality filter media - N95, KN95, FFP2.5, PM2.5, etc - the depth of a 'pore' relative to the width is substantial and electrostatic forces attract particles that are smaller than the pores into the media, accounting for the occasional free-floating viral particles as well as smaller aerosol water droplets.




Sort of like water filter types. I use a .1 micron absolute filter when backpacking and mostly trust it. If I had something lesser, I guess it would give some peace of mind...but I could end up sleeping on the bathroom floor drinking Pepto Bismol a week later wishing I was dead. 

*Absolute:* Filter Rating meaning 99.9% of the particles larger than a specified micron rating will be trapped on or within the filter.
*
Nominal:* Filter Rating indicating the approximate size particle, the majority of which will not pass through the filter. It is generally interpreted as meaning that 85% of the particles of the size equal to the nominal filter rating will be retained by the filter.

Mosquito thru the fence...half of which is covered by spider webs.


----------



## turbodog

linked to a now-deleted post

ignore


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

jtr1962 said:


> I've spent a fair amount of time watching OANN until I just got sick of their misinformation. In short, they might as well be a propaganda ministry for the current administration. .....





turbodog said:


> It's not hard to find plenty of legitimate sources condemning OANN ...



Still, whom would you rather be in a Zoom meeting with - OAN's Christina Bobb - 







or the New Yorker's / CNN's Jeffery Toobin?


----------



## jtr1962

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> Still, whom would you rather be in a Zoom meeting with - OAN's Christina Bobb -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or the New Yorker's / CNN's Jeffery Toobin?


I actually had to look them both up. I'll admit Mr. Toobin's conduct is far worse but I'm not sure I'd want to be in a Zoom meeting with either of them. To OANN's credit, when they just report the news, instead of giving opinion pieces, they're not bad. That's actually why I used to watch it. But their opinion pieces are just horrible.


----------



## archimedes

jtr1962 said:


> .... I'm fine with any restrictions the government imposes until the time comes that we have mass vaccinations and new cases drop to near zero....



Very very few vaccines are 100% effective, or 100% safe, let alone both.

Could end up being a long long wait ....


----------



## jtr1962

archimedes said:


> Very very few vaccines are 100% effective, or 100% safe, let alone both.
> 
> Could end up being a long long wait ....


I'm aware of that but even a vaccine which is 50% effective is far better than nothing. Also, in the other 50% who don't get immunity from the vaccine most likely if they do catch it their case will be far more mild.

I don't think we'll stamp this virus out in the general population for at least a few years but vaccines and other measures could reduce the number of cases to the point where testing and contact tracing allows us to control flare-ups while safely keeping the country open.


----------



## jtr1962

turbodog said:


> And building on that... the quickest way to prolong this is to try and reopen fully too quickly


Yep. I liken the current response to continually picking at a scab instead of allowing the cut to heal.



> I was surprised, but pleased, that a statewide mask mandate was actually able to keep the numbers in MS in check. We were able to have restaurants open, bars open, theaters open, and so on.
> 
> Then the governor removed the mask mandate... and numbers are exploding.


Which is evidence that masks work, even if not perfect. In Asian countries where mask compliance is near 100% there's not even much transmission on crowded public transit. If we want to keep things open, we have to wear masks until case numbers nationwide fall very low.

Here in NYC until October our numbers held at very low levels. Then people started getting complacent about mask wearing, even though it's still required if you can't keep at least 6 feet apart. We had some flare-ups but we're controlling it with selective shut-downs only in certain zip codes. We want to avoid a repeat of the statewide shutdown we had earlier if at all possible.


----------



## wacbzz

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> Still, whom would you rather be in a Zoom meeting with - OAN's Christina Bobb -
> ...
> or the New Yorker's / CNN's Jeffery Toobin?



Given what we _now_ know, I guess, in fairness, it would depend on which sex one finds fairer, and honestly, if Toobin is the one that is the choice, perhaps a Zoom meeting with him would be much...more revealing.


----------



## raggie33

my self included im ashamed of how this covid 19 bought out the worst of many of us. me included im going to improve


----------



## Poppy

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> Still, whom would you rather be in a Zoom meeting with - OAN's Christina Bobb -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> or the New Yorker's / CNN's Jeffery Toobin?


LOL Chance, I miss read your post. I thought you wanted to know who I would prefer to be in bed with!

I don't follow OAN, but she is pretty!


----------



## matrixshaman

I won't waste my time arguing with or responding to those who won't see the truth from doctors, scientists and data I present here. You can take it or leave it. Use it or not. Your choice.


This is from America's Frontline doctors. The one speaking the first 12 minutes is a certified physician and also a Stanford educated attorney. They are standing in front of America's Supreme court. The first 12 minutes or so gives a great deal of info about the great mask hoax and why it should not be mandated or even pushed on people. 


In the first two minutes you get info about a doctor who is treating patients for Covid 19 for FREE in all 50 states by just going to his website. Out of 1900 positive cases ALL recovered using HCQ and a couple other items and only one out of the 1900 needed to be hospitalized. There was ZERO mortality rate with the patients they treated. Another doctor has a clinic in an area one of the highest risk populations. His clinic saw over 20,000 patients and they had ZERO deaths and only ONE hospitalization.


These are the genuinely good doctors. These doctors are being told NOT to treat the patients with HCQ. They are ignoring it and saving lives. The mainstream media is spreading LIES. The FDA, CDC and WHO are controlled by big money - not by concern for your health.


And of course this is where you also get to ogle a bit more at OAN's Christina Bobb:


Banned on Youtube:
https://www.infowars.com/posts/banned-from-youtube-americas-frontline-doctors-hold-2nd-summit-in-dc/

Or if you want to get it from the source (you need to give an email here) :
https://www.americasfrontlinedoctors.com/stream/


----------



## Owen

LeanBurn said:


> I am just glad that there have been zero regular flu deaths in 2020 as it has been cured. Finally some good news ! :thumbsup:


:twothumbs
If the change in the "flu story" didn't make it obvious to people how much they're being lied to, nothing will. The funny part is that, last I looked, CDC didn't even edit or remove their previous charts and statements, so anyone who is interested can Google them right up in .000whatever seconds.
What's sad is that I'm just a regular guy with no special knowledge, and I don't even need to Google anything. I can rip apart any news report, on any channel, on practically any topic(racial, historical, as well as medical), just as fast as the lies, contradictions and sensationalistic emotional appeals come out of their mouths, but what I can't offer is any truth.
Yeah, I see the lies for what they are, but have no idea what's actually happening. I got my rude awakening about the veracity of anything we call "news" ~30 years ago when I was in the military, and to quote myself speaking to my father, afterwards-"we have no idea what's really going on in the world." 
We still don't.


----------



## vadimax

How may you explain that number of registered COVID positives in D states is 4-5 times larger than in R states? Well, this is not a better medical treatment -- death rates are way higher in D states. The answer is here (attention, broken English):



Excerpt: a family in a D state has registered for a COVID test, but then changed their mind and cancelled the reservation (funny, the same my wifie did after I have explained her that she will enter a space that 100% will have minor virus samples). Than a "miracle" has happened -- they've got a POSITIVE result... without giving their samples to anyone.


----------



## bigburly912

To matrixshaman. The whole HCQ thing has been beat to death. Early on that was kind of the case that people weren’t sure to use it but I know 4 people personally who were treated with it and zpack so doctors ARE using it for treatment. Nobody is holding a gun to anyone’s head and telling them what medicine to use. We all know this has been way over politicized wether we agree with eachother or not. Everyone sees that.


----------



## turbodog

matrixshaman said:


> ...
> In the first two minutes you get info about a doctor who is treating patients for Covid 19 for FREE in all 50 states by just going to his website. Out of 1900 positive cases ALL recovered using HCQ and a couple other items and only one out of the 1900 needed to be hospitalized. There was ZERO mortality rate with the patients they treated....



So let me ask you... the double blind trials, conducted by a wide variety of accredited & reputable places, which saw negative outcomes from HCQ... those are to all be ignored and the unverified results of a single doctor, on a website known for questionable information, should be trusted instead?

Got it.

Thanks for the great information.


----------



## bigburly912

turbodog said:


> So let me ask you... the double blind trials, conducted by a wide variety of accredited & reputable places, which saw negative outcomes from HCQ... those are to all be ignored and the unverified results of a single doctor, on a website known for questionable information, should be trusted instead?
> 
> Got it.
> 
> Thanks for the great information.



But. But but. Henry Ford health system back in July said it SIGNIFICANTLY increased survival rates. Or at least someone who wants to believe that HCQ is the end all be all heal all can find that study and argue with you, especially since these are actual healthcare professionals. 


https://www.henryford.com/news/2020/07/hydro-treatment-study

Once again, I’m taking no stance on anything because nothing is concrete. I do personally know 4 people treated with it and they all are alive and well but there’s SO many studies to the contrary. Here we are in this loop again of what do we believe.


----------



## turbodog

For what it's worth, I read your link, the whole thing. I also read the followup study with 3k patients also. FYI, it's currently 'paused' as of today.

If I mentally say 'I want to believe' and look at your HCQ study I eventually notice some severe problems.

These problems are logistics... the same problems that any drug has to address. You can aggressively monitor a small group of study patients for heart and eye damage (HCQ can cause both). *It's another thing entirely to do this for the population at large.*

*People confuse what _can_ work for a small group of people and what _must_ work for 300+ million.*

Direct quote from doctor running the trial:

"Currently, the drug should be used *only *in *hospitalized *patients with appropriate *monitoring*, and as part of study protocols, in accordance with all relevant federal regulations,” Dr. Zervos said."

I'm not going into the HCQ efficacy. I'm pointing out the huge problem with using _any_ drug that requires this level of caution for it to 1) be effective and 2) not make things worse.


----------



## matrixshaman

turbodog said:


> So let me ask you... the double blind trials, conducted by a wide variety of accredited & reputable places, which saw negative outcomes from HCQ... those are to all be ignored and the unverified results of a single doctor, on a website known for questionable information, should be trusted instead?
> 
> Got it.
> 
> Thanks for the great information.



HCQ is very very inexpensive. Other Covid-19 treatments are expensive. Follow the money. Big Pharma has paid for studies to stop HCQ use. I thought everyone knew about these:

https://www.statnews.com/2020/06/04...t-raised-safety-concerns-about-malaria-drugs/


https://www.statnews.com/2020/07/08...uses-attention-and-the-fda-may-pay-the-price/


----------



## bigburly912

oh im not arguing with you at all turbodog. I was just saying somebody somewhere would see that and say WELL THESE GUYS SAY IT WORKED. Thats what ive been saying the whole time. There is such a huge maze of info out there that people get lost in.


----------



## jtr1962

The bigger issue with using HCQ is this.

Whether or not HCQ is effective at treating covid, and the studies show it's not any better than other treatments, the hoarding of supplies is causing problems for those with conditions for which the drug is known to be effective. Malaria deaths, which are over 400K annually, could well spike due to shortages of HCQ.

On another note, I heard this joke:

When told the drug was for treating malaria, Trump said "If it's good enough for the first lady it's good enough for me." :laughing:


----------



## turbodog

bigburly912 said:


> ...There is such a huge maze of info out there that people get lost in.



So what do 'we' do? Right?

*I think 'we' try to help 'them'... which is actually 'us' helping each other to quash bad info and spread/promote accurate info.*

It's incredibly hard for the average citizen to effectively read, understand, and act on what is a fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants research environment right now. Not that it's "easy" any other time either.

Does HCQ work at all? For everyone? Moot question at this time...



jtr1962 said:


> The bigger issue with using HCQ is this.
> 
> Whether or not HCQ is effective at treating covid, and the studies show it's not any better than other treatments, the hoarding of supplies is causing problems for those with conditions for which the drug is known to be effective. Malaria deaths, which are over 400K annually, could well spike due to shortages of HCQ.
> 
> ...



In addition... if people think there is a quick, cheap, miracle cure how do you think they will act? Like children... which will swamp healthcare.

Our state's number have doubled in the past 2 weeks. And given the delays between gov't order, people taking action, incubation, diagnosis, etc we are looking at another doubling, and that's _IF_ we act now, which we aren't.


----------



## Poppy

About a month ago, New Jersey had about 300 new cases a day for months, for the past 5 days it's been over a thousand. Today almost 1,200.
One of the middle schools in my town went full virtual until Monday, and Newark, NJ has extended it's total virtual until January.

Our Governor says that the uptick is not related to opening the schools, but in a large part, due to people being more social and entertaining groups indoors.


----------



## markr6

Poppy said:


> Our Governor says that the uptick is not related to opening the schools, but in a large part, due to people being more social and entertaining groups indoors.



Yeah the temp drops 15° and the trail I ride on almost every night is empty. The YMCA parking lot I ride past is now packed so everyone is inside working out. Suck it up and keep outside nancy boy, it's not 30° yet!


----------



## jtr1962

markr6 said:


> Yeah the temp drops 15° and the trail I ride on almost every night is empty. The YMCA parking lot I ride past is now packed so everyone is inside working out. Suck it up and keep outside nancy boy, it's not 30° yet!


+1

So many people are wimps when it comes to the cold. I love riding in the winter. So much nicer than the summer. You just have to dress for it.


----------



## raggie33

people think im nuts im walking around outside barefoot and shorts till its gets below 50 f. i love winter no more hot days


----------



## Poppy

raggie, Auditioning for dual survivor?

Not me, living and working in an air conditioned environment (that means heat in the winter too  ) has made me prefer to be comfortable and less tolerant of heat and cold temps. My comfort zone is 68 F to 74 F. 

I CAN be outdoors in cold temps, especially if I layer up.


----------



## raggie33

Poppy said:


> raggie, Auditioning for dual survivor?
> 
> Not me, living and working in an air conditioned environment (that means heat in the winter too  ) has made me prefer to be comfortable and less tolerant of heat and cold temps. My comfort zone is 68 F to 74 F.
> 
> I CAN be outdoors in cold temps, especially if I layer up.


i was just watching yesterday lol and im thinking bare foot guy has a few screws loose lol. i understand if your teraiin was controled pavement grass etc etc. but not knowing what terain is im going to see i want boots. but i still love the show.


----------



## Poppy

Cody Lundin... I actually read a couple of his books. Interesting, the guy's got knowledge. A bit whacky, er yeah. 
Matt is also entertaining, and pleasant to watch.

Joe Teti, and the other "x military" Dave Canterbury are a bit on the dramatic side.


----------



## ledbetter

New record number of new cases in a single day in the United States with estimates now reaching 500,000 deaths by February of next year. And what is the current administration doing? Absolutely nothing. What a legacy.


----------



## jtr1962

ledbetter said:


> New record number of new cases in a single day in the United States with estimates now reaching 500,000 deaths by February of next year. And what is the current administration doing? Absolutely nothing. What a legacy.


They're making it worse actually with their "superspreader" rallies. I thought there were bans on large gatherings, especially without masks or social distancing? That means everyone, including the President of the United States.


----------



## scout24

Two posts venturing off into politics again. Bring it back around, please.


----------



## bykfixer

Because the word "cases" wasn't dramatic enough anymore the media now says "infections"…… 
The term "record cases" is out. "Record infections" is in. Woohoo!!


----------



## WarriorOfLight

Currently the number of infections is rising everywhere...  ... that is bad, really bad. 

The more interesting point is that my government starts to plan the vaccination that seems to ne in Q2 or Q3 2021. The point is that the vaccine will not be enough for all of the citizens in my country. Therefore it will be a long shot until ~60% are vaccinated. 

That problem will be in each country. There are 7.000.000.000 vaccination doses needed for all of us on this pale blue dot...


----------



## turbodog

Speaking about logistics of vaccinations...

If ~3% of the US has been/is infected, and unconfirmed to confirmed is about 10:1, then we have 30% that have some level of protection. 

So, in the short term, that means we need to vaccinate another 50% to get fairly close to herd immunity.

This makes things somewhat easier.


----------



## Poppy

Poppy said:


> About a month ago, New Jersey had about 300 new cases a day for months, for the past 5 days it's been over a thousand. Today almost 1,200.
> One of the middle schools in my town went full virtual until Monday, and Newark, NJ has extended it's total virtual until January.
> 
> Our Governor says that the uptick is not related to opening the schools, but in a large part, due to people being more social and entertaining groups indoors.


Today it was announced that yesterday there were 1,995 new cases. We haven't seen that many new cases in a single day since May. 

It is unfathomable to me, that people are planning to go trick or treating.


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

While speaking with one of the teachers at our church operated school yesterday, I was told her students are healthier than during previous years. Everyone on campus is screened every morning before being allowed to enter the buildings, everyone wears a mask or face shield, hand washing and sanitizer are being greatly encouraged, and, of course, social distancing is being enforced. 

The teacher has 26 1st grade students. She told me they understand the reason for all the new procedures and they and their parents are happy with how school is being conducted.


----------



## vadimax

Weird times: in order to stay healthy you need to hate people


----------



## scout24

I don't see that as true, just inflammatory...


----------



## Johnnyh

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> While speaking with one of the teachers at our church operated school yesterday, I was told her students are healthier than during previous years. Everyone on campus is screened every morning before being allowed to enter the buildings, everyone wears a mask or face shield, hand washing and sanitizer are being greatly encouraged, and, of course, social distancing is being enforced.
> 
> The teacher has 26 1st grade students. She told me they understand the reason for all the new procedures and they and their parents are happy with how school is being conducted.



Four of my Grandbabies are enrolled in a school run by their family church as well...they go full time...no distance learning. They practice all the good anti- COVID practices and things are going nicely. I’m thankful. They’re doing a spectacular job keeping those kids and their families safe while continuing to educate. Those teachers, administrators and maintenance folks are real heroes!


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## turbodog

We have reliable word that local pharmacy w/ take delivery of vaccines by next weekend. I suppose this is deployment in anticipation of having an approved candidate.

I have not been tracking much of anything to do with this effort, focusing mainly on tracking/projecting stats.

Where does development stand?


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## motigg

We won’t see vaccine widely available until middle of 2021 at the earliest. Front line health care workers and other priority groups may get it early 2021, but in limited numbers. No way your local pharmacy will see any by next weekend.


----------



## PhotonWrangler

Two of the leading vaccine candidates that use mRNA require unusually low transport and storage temperatures, which will mean new equipment at the pharmacies and special shipping logistics.


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## turbodog

motigg said:


> We won’t see vaccine widely available until middle of 2021 at the earliest. Front line health care workers and other priority groups may get it early 2021, but in limited numbers. No way your local pharmacy will see any by next weekend.



So when I have direct confirmation from the person that was notified of shipping (already) then I must have dreamed it.

I'm not saying it's for public distribution, or not. I'm simply saying there's _something_ coming down the pipe, for better or worse.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

turbodog said:


> We have reliable word that local pharmacy w/ take delivery of vaccines by next weekend. I suppose this is deployment in anticipation of having an approved candidate.
> 
> I have not been tracking much of anything to do with this effort, focusing mainly on tracking/projecting stats.
> 
> Where does development stand?



Probably regular flu vaccines as there has been talk about recommending people get flu vaccines so that less people get regular flu which can help to not overload hospitals with both flu and Covid 19 too.


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## turbodog

Y'all must have missed a lot of my prior posts.

I found it questionable myself, asked for confirmation again, and was confirmed c-19 vaccines were on the way, slated to arrived on/before next weekend.


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## motigg

Haven't followed you earlier posts. I'm basing what I say on the most recent stories regarding where we're at with development, and on conversations with people who follow this stuff very closely (as part of my work). I've heard nothing about COVID vaccines being available in American pharmacies next week, in any amount. Pfizer and Moderna announced just a few days ago that the earliest they could apply for authorization is late November.


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## turbodog

Don't have an answer for you. I don't follow vaccine stuff... but would have said that we won't see any till 1q2021, at any level.

Might be a pilot program thing. Don't know. If anything reliable and interesting comes by me, will pass it along.


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## bigburly912

There are no approved vaccines yet. There is a newly approved drug for treatment however named remdesivir, it’s an injection. It is NOT a vaccine. That’s pretty bad info to be spreading as much as you try to chastise people. Only a few countries have approved any vaccines so far including China and Russia.


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## Poppy

(CNN)The federal government has made a deal with retail pharmacies CVS and Walgreens to help distribute coronavirus vaccine -- once one or more gets authorized -- to long-term care facilities like nursing homes, federal officials said Friday, October 16, 2020.

more....


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## bigburly912

That’s actually pretty nice if the vaccines prove successful. I’m sure everyone has a CVS or Walgreens in or near their community.


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## motigg

Though Remdesivir has recently been approved, the large SOLIDARITY trial in the UK showed it to have no clinical benefits. It’s not clear that the approval here in the US was clinically justified or if it’s just another example of health agencies buckling under political pressure. That question will remain difficult to answer until there is a new administration, whenever that may be. Another problem is around 30-40% of Americans say they won’t take a vaccine because they don’t trust it will be safe and effective. Depending on efficacy rates we may need 50-75% uptake rates to really get the pandemic under control. And the logistical challenges of getting 750 million (if it’s two shots per person) shots in arms are significant. I’m classified as an educator and so may get mine a bit earlier than members of other groups, but I don’t expect to receive a shot until middle of the year at the earliest. I fear it’s going to be a difficult, ugly winter.


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## turbodog

bigburly912 said:


> There are no approved vaccines yet. There is a newly approved drug for treatment however named remdesivir, it’s an injection. It is NOT a vaccine. That’s pretty bad info to be spreading as much as you try to chastise people. Only a few countries have approved any vaccines so far including China and Russia.



Go back and read what I posted. Did not say it was approved. When it was stated, person was asked what they said, and they re-stated shipment of them is inbound. I guess it's possible to ship them out in anticipation of an approved candidate. If approval fails, they are sent back and destroyed.

That's all the current info I have on this. If/when I have something else I will follow up.

Followup: Just went back my source that was in the room when the announcement was made from the person responsible for 'placing the order'. There was sort of stunned silence with mouths hanging open. We will see what happens...


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## bigburly912

Null.


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## bykfixer

If folks remember back what seems like an eternity in todays instant access world a couple months back the US government made deals with a few companies to make millions upon millions of doses of the recipe they were currently using in trials so that when one (or more) prove to be good to go there will be a train car load already available for distribution. My state has begun to ramp up a process to get them to those at the front line and the vulnerable community. They are using $20 million from the CARES act money that was set aside for this point in time. 

Something called operation Warp Speed put in place a lot of processes and procedures in an unprecidented effort to have a shot available to a large segment of the American population by Christmas 2020. Unfortuneatly noises from political spin doctors on the two opposing sides of a debate in America have drowned out the real information while trying to credit or blame the other side of the political spectrum. 
In America even milk and cereal has become politisized. But the day a shot is deemed approved for use there are somewhere in the neighborhood of 100 million doses ready to roll from various pharmecutical companies. Will it be ready by Christmas? Next spring? Will Americans opt to get the shot? Will governors require citizens to take the shot? 
Stay tuned.

Remember folks, there are large numbers in America who refuse to vaccinate their kids for the stuff most of us were inoculated for in grade school. Some jokingly call them Mercury Moms as the main critisizm is vaccines cause autism. Some have not forgotten the swine flu debacle from 1975/76 where bad doses or live virus got out and some were killed by the cure for the disease. Some don't trust anything approved by orange man, some do not trust anything approved by big brother nanny state. It should be no surprise that a bunch of polls show Americans saying "hellnaw" the a brand new shot for a brand new virus. It aint like they're passing out the new iPhone SE or a pack of sugar free gum. It's kinda scarey to think a company that puts out a miracle pill for an ailment whose side affects potentially "the ailment it is supposed to cure"……or "in rare cases" internal bleeding, heart failure or other dreadful things. Anti depressants that may cause suicidal thoughts? Skin rash medicine that may cause skin rash? And they're going to inject their new great recipe in me? Dawg gone right some are baulking at the idea. 

Stay 6 feet apart, wash your hands, cover your face in crowds or near people, keep your social circle small and……wait for it…… don't……touch……your face.


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## bigburly912

“How widely can Pfizer and BioNTech’s vaccine be used, given its taxing storage requirements? 
Before any vaccine can start being rolled out, manufacturers have to be able to produce enough doses and get the vaccine where it needs to go. As it stands, the vaccine that currently seems poised to make it across the finish line first is also the one that will be the most difficult to put into use, if clinical trials show it is effective. 

Pfizer and BioNTech’s candidate, which uses messenger RNA technology, must be shipped and stored at -70 Celsius.

The drug maker developed its own thermal shipping boxes that can hold up to 5,000 doses for up to 10 days. But the containers should not be opened more than twice a day and should not remain open for more than one minute at a time.”

The boxes need dry ice to keep cold — 23 kilograms of dry ice pellets, to be precise, which must be replenished within 24 hours after the shipper is first opened, and then five days after.

This is far more complex than standard vaccine distribution. And if it’s not done properly, there could be enormous waste of limited doses.


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## bigburly912

https://www.statnews.com/2020/10/09/7-looming-questions-about-the-rollout-of-a-covid-19-vaccine/


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## jtr1962

I'm more concerned about the large numbers of people who say they won't get the vaccine. If at least 70% to 80% aren't vaccinated, the virus will continue to circulate. My only hope is large numbers of work places, as well as schools, require vaccination as a precondition to returning to the office or classrooms. In theory the government has the power to force people to get vaccinated, but I would really rather we don't go down that road.


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## raggie33

All this crazy stuff makes me wonder if any of us even exist . you can't prove to me any if this exist . I could just be part of some video game. Now I'm working on the reset switch .this world is so damn awful we are heading to a recession we can't go to the store with out a mask loved ones are dieng . jobs are being replaced by auto check out computers and robots. The murder Hornets will kill are bees .. Nothing ever good happens . I was afraid to leave the house before covid .now I don't leave at all I use Amazon fresh to get food but its so costly and dang spell check always changes my words its never ever once right..and I'm out of mask anyways


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## Katherine Alicia

raggie33 said:


> All this crazy stuff makes me wonder if any of us even exist . you can't prove to me any if this exist . I could just be part of some video game. Now I'm working on the reset switch .this world is so damn awful we are heading to a recession we can't go to the store with out a mask loved ones are dieng . jobs are being replaced by auto check out computers and robots. The murder Hornets will kill are bees .. Nothing ever good happens . I was afraid to leave the house before covid .now I don't leave at all I use Amazon fresh to get food but its so costly and dang spell check always changes my words its never ever once right..and I'm out of mask anyways



But this world also has Flashlights! and Musical instruments, and little packets of seeds that hardly cost anything that can fill your garden with flowers, so it`s not ALL bad


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## bykfixer

jtr1962 said:


> I'm more concerned about the large numbers of people who say they won't get the vaccine. If at least 70% to 80% aren't vaccinated, the virus will continue to circulate. My only hope is large numbers of work places, as well as schools, require vaccination as a precondition to returning to the office or classrooms. In theory the government has the power to force people to get vaccinated, but I would really rather we don't go down that road.



The governor of my state has already said it's a mandatory thing. It'll be interesting to see how that plays out as Mercury moms, tin hat types and don't tread on me folks enter the fray. For now there'll be some placed at the front of the line for obvious reasons but as more and more doses become available it will certainly be a different situation. They know a lot about the citizens now so it's getting harder and harder to stay off their radar if you are an anti-shot person. Will it be an offense that brings jail time to say no? Big $ fine? We'll see.


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## Katherine Alicia

bykfixer said:


> if you are an anti-shot person. Will it be an offense that brings jail time to say no? Big $ fine? We'll see.



Or... they could just make a load of `Darwin Awards` for them! 

Let all the sensible people have the vaccine, and let Mother Nature sort out all the wack jobs


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## raggie33

Katherine Alicia said:


> But this world also has Flashlights! and Musical instruments, and little packets of seeds that hardly cost anything that can fill your garden with flowers, so it`s not ALL bad



I do love flashlights a lot and love flowers


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## idleprocess

I for one hope a vaccine is developed that has the following characteristics:

Safe
Effective
Confers long-term immunity
Thoroughly and credibly tested

(1) and (2) are basic requirements of any vaccine. (3) may prove challenging in the face of a virus undergoing evolution before our eyes and the seemingly _brief_ natural immunity that survivors are demonstrating. (4) may prove similarly challenging in the face of the ... _confidence_ ... gap Americans are experiencing with regards to their government and the medical establishment.


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## Poppy

Katherine Alicia said:


> Or... they could just make a load of `Darwin Awards` for them!
> 
> Let all the sensible people have the vaccine, and let Mother Nature sort out all the wack jobs


Let me tell you THIS!
I am NOT going to be first in line to get the vaccine!

Due to the urgency, these vaccines are being pushed forward much faster/sooner than other drugs that come out onto the market. "Warp Speed" Faster than the speed of light! These are projected to be injected into people only months after the virus was first discovered. Drugs typically go through years of tests, and trials before being released as safe and effective. Yet after years on the market there are often multi-billions of dollars of law-suits filed due to disastrous side effects.

I'd label those who are willing to be first in line "test subjects".


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## Katherine Alicia

But you not unwilling to have the vaccine if proven efficacious, there`s world of difference bewteen that and blind prejudice


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## Chauncey Gardiner

Perhaps someday there'll be a pill that cures people of being dismissive of others beliefs. :wave:


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## markr6

Poppy said:


> I'd label those who are willing to be first in line "test subjects".



I would be game. I actually looked into this to see if there was some kind of signup, but left with more questions than answers and just gave up.


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## Katherine Alicia

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> Perhaps someday there'll be a pill that cures people of being dismissive of others beliefs. :wave:



Except where such beliefs bring harm either directly or indirectly to others


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## Poppy

markr6 said:


> I would be game. I actually looked into this to see if there was some kind of signup, but left with more questions than answers and just gave up.


A very good friend of mine in his late 60's has blinded faith in the medical establishment, and he too wants to sign up as a test subject. He asked both of his doctors and each said... "Go for it!" Of note: neither of them are signing up.

I explained to him that there will be a control group... a group of people who do NOT get the actual shot, but will think that they did. Even their doctor will not know. His response was something along the lines of... "well, that's not fair."


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## Poppy

Katherine Alicia said:


> Except where such beliefs bring harm either directly or indirectly to others


Katherine,
In the 1400's and 1500's people in England could be labeled a "Heretic" (non-believer) and could be beheaded, or burned at the stake for their religious belief. Depending upon who was King, or Queen and what his, or her belief was at the time, people had to change their belief, or risk death.

When the Founding Fathers of the US declared independence from England, and wrote our Constitution, religious Freedom, Freedom of speech, and the Right to keep and bear Arms, and others, were added shortly there after.

I don't know the laws of other states, but here in New Jersey, one may invoke a religious objection to vaccination, and the government may allow the student enter school, but in the event of an outbreak, the school system can deny admittance. Those who are not vaccinated may have to quarantine.

I don't follow this issue closely, but I believe that there is sufficient anecdotal evidence that Autism may be related to some childhood vaccinations, and or the mercury preservative that is in the multi-dose bottles. Who's right? No one knows for sure.


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## Chauncey Gardiner

Dismissive - Contemptuous, Scornful, Disdainful, Insulting. I don't believe such tone is going to stop anyone from being harmed.


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## ledbetter

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> Dismissive - Contemptuous, Scornful, Disdainful, Insulting. I don't believe such tone is going to stop anyone from being harmed.


Sanctimonious, self-righteous, and superstitious. Get back on topic and save the preaching for the converted.


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## motigg

We know with certainty that vaccines do not cause autism. This has been established repeatedly. There is no scientific controversy about it. This false belief is responsible for quite a bit of vaccine hesitancy, which is, in turn, responsible for unnecessary illness. It also leads to distortions in our political system. Vaccines do not cause autism.


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## Katherine Alicia

I can`t defend "the right to infect others" just because they think they`re "Special" or somehow better than eneryone else, WE are ALL in this together, No exceptions.
I think sometimes folks seem to forget that things like beliefs are a Choice, a luxury! dying of covid isn`t a choice, it`s a reality, a reality based on Fact not belief.


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## idleprocess

Poppy said:


> anecdotal evidence



The plural of 'anecdote' _is not_ 'evidence'.


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## wacbzz

Fake News Alert...



bykfixer said:


> The governor of my state has already said it's a mandatory thing.



No, he did not. The VA Commissioner of Health - Norman Oliver- said he would make such a vaccination necessary as an emergency order. The VA Gov, at the time, and many times since then, has publicly stated that he does not, and would not, back such an order. 

It was later revealed that Oliver was stating his “opinion” on what he thought should be done, not what was going to be done. 

All of this is easily verified with a simple google search. Stop stirring the pot...


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## Poppy

idleprocess said:


> The plural of 'anecdote' _is not_ 'evidence'.



The plural of Canada Goose, is not Canadian Geese! :nana:


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## bigburly912

wacbzz said:


> Fake News Alert...
> 
> 
> 
> No, he did not. The VA Commissioner of Health - Norman Oliver- said he would make such a vaccination necessary as an emergency order. The VA Gov, at the time, and many times since then, has publicly stated that he does not, and would not, back such an order.
> 
> It was later revealed that Oliver was stating his “opinion” on what he thought should be done, not what was going to be done.
> 
> All of this is easily verified with a simple google search. Stop stirring the pot...



Actually that’s fake news. He has taken no official stance at all because they plan on all Virginians happily seeking out the vaccine. He sure hasn’t signed anything into law stopping Oliver from making it mandatory either. 

https://www.wfxrtv.com/news/health/...ne-mandate-despite-support-from-top-official/


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## jtr1962

bigburly912 said:


> Actually that’s fake news. He has taken no official stance at all because they plan on all Virginians happily seeking out the vaccine.
> 
> https://www.wfxrtv.com/news/health/...ne-mandate-despite-support-from-top-official/


Hopefully that's the case everywhere. If enough people voluntarily get vaccinated, or do so in order to go to work or school, then there's no need for a heavy-handed approach.


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## wacbzz

bigburly912 said:


> Actually that’s fake news. He has taken no official stance at all because they plan on all Virginians happily seeking out the vaccine. He sure hasn’t signed anything into law stopping Oliver from making it mandatory either.
> 
> https://www.wfxrtv.com/news/health/...ne-mandate-despite-support-from-top-official/



I’ll happily stick with “not planning to” (which Northam has stated on multiple occasions when asked since late August - including your link) versus “the governor of my state has said it’s a mandatory thing.”

I’m sure of it that the difference between the two is easily discernible...


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## wacbzz

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> Perhaps someday there'll be a pill that cures people of being dismissive of others beliefs. :wave:



Was down at the bait shop the other day. Nothing there but a bunch of grumpy old men arguing about dragons in their garages...


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## Chauncey Gardiner

ledbetter said:


> Sanctimonious, self-righteous, and superstitious. Get back on topic and save the preaching for the converted.



You're not the boss of me. 
- Homer Simpson 

Superstitious -  

Preaching -  

 are you referencing, man?


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## bigburly912

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> You're not the boss of me.
> - Homer Simpson
> 
> Superstitious -
> 
> Preaching -
> 
> are you referencing, man?



He never knows.


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## Bullzeyebill

Wow, folks let’s be nice to each other. 





Bill a


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## Poppy

This has gotten funny. I don't know who is responding to whom, and even what points they are trying to make.
:wave::nana:oh and one more... 

I agree, that we, or some of us have gotten pretty "over the top sensitive" maybe polarized. Hey we are being presented with conditions never seen before in our lifetimes. Those conditions may impact our lives for years to come. Currently we may be significantly impacted, or not too much.

Let's debate, but not argue, and most of all, not get angry.

Let's have fun.


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## Hooked on Fenix

I think everyone should be able to choose whether or not to take the vaccine without being demonized or punished for their decisions. You get more compliance in a free society when you give people a choice. Forcing people into it only breeds resistance and mistrust. Forcing people to do anything in what is supposed to be a free nation takes us down a slippery slope that will lead to our own destruction.


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## turbodog

Hooked on Fenix said:


> I think everyone should be able to choose whether or not to take the vaccine without being demonized or punished for their decisions. You get more compliance in a free society when you give people a choice. Forcing people into it only breeds resistance and mistrust. Forcing people to do anything in what is supposed to be a free nation takes us down a slippery slope that will lead to our own destruction.



Yeah I'm gonna need some specific examples that prove your compliance point. By that logic, people would voluntarily: not speed, pay their taxes, and not commit other crimes without needing to enforce those laws.


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## Katherine Alicia

Poppy said:


> This has gotten funny. I don't know who is responding to whom, and even what points they are trying to make.
> :wave::nana:oh and one more...
> 
> I agree, that we, or some of us have gotten pretty "over the top sensitive" maybe polarized. Hey we are being presented with conditions never seen before in our lifetimes. Those conditions may impact our lives for years to come. Currently we may be significantly impacted, or not too much.
> 
> Let's debate, but not argue, and most of all, not get angry.
> 
> Let's have fun.




Sorry to derail slightly for a sec, but I got this message when I tried to reply to your PM: 
[h=3]The following errors occurred with your submission[/h] 

Poppy has exceeded their stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until they clear some space."


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## bykfixer

https://www.virginiabusiness.com/article/virginians-debate-mandatory-covid-19-vaccinations/

I drive the speed limit voluntarily. I wear a face cover voluntarily and obey laws without being forced to. Nearly evrrybody I know does too. But when governments says "you shall obey" our response is "oh yeah, watch this bucko"……


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## Hooked on Fenix

turbodog said:


> Yeah I'm gonna need some specific examples that prove your compliance point. By that logic, people would voluntarily: not speed, pay their taxes, and not commit other crimes without needing to enforce those laws.


I don't speed, I pay my taxes, and I don't commit other crimes. I'm a Christian. The Bible says render unto Cesar what is Cesar's (pay your taxes). It says don't murder, don't steal, don't commit adultery, don't bear false witness against your neighbor, etc.. I don't need the government's laws to abide by laws from a higher power. I will follow the law unless it's something outside of the government's defined authority to enforce. Show me where in the Constitution it gives the government the authority to force a law abiding citizen to do something against their will. We used to call that extortion. The notion that the government knows best and we must do whatever they tell us has lead to many countries slaughtering its citizens after a dictator took power. If you don't take a stand when the government steps out of line, you'll regret it when they become unstoppable later on.


----------



## Poppy

Hooked on Fenix said:


> I don't speed, I pay my taxes, and I don't commit other crimes. I'm a Christian. *The Bible says render unto Cesar what is Cesar's (pay your taxes)*. It says don't murder, don't steal, don't commit adultery, don't bear false witness against your neighbor, etc.. I don't need the government's laws to abide by laws from a higher power. I will follow the law unless it's something outside of the government's defined authority to enforce. <SNIP>.




If you are going to quote the Bible, please do so appropriately and don't take it out of context.
I am not a biblical scholar, I only read it once. Actually I am 78% of the way through it.

The Bible doesn't say "Pay your taxes"
Jesus was being clever when he made the statement you referred to.
IIRC the temple priests were trying to trick him into stating that he is the "King of Kings" and more important than Cesar, for which he could be put to death. Or something along those lines.

Then the Pharisees went and plotted how to entangle him in his words. And they sent their disciples to him, along with the Herodians, saying, “Teacher, we know that you are true and teach the way of God truthfully, and you do not care about anyone's opinion, for you are not swayed by appearances. Tell us, then, what you think. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?” But Jesus, aware of their malice, said, “Why put me to the test, you hypocrites? Show me the coin for the tax.” And they brought him a denarius. And Jesus said to them, “Whose likeness and inscription is this?” They said, “Caesar’s.” Then he said to them, “Therefore render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.” When they heard it, they marveled. And they left him and went away.​The more famous phrase used today comes from the King James Version: “Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.”

___________________________
IMO "They Marveled" meant that they realized that he was clever and that they could not trick him into saying what they wanted.


----------



## wacbzz

Hooked on Fenix said:


> I don't speed, I pay my taxes, and I don't commit other crimes. I'm a Christian. The Bible says render unto Cesar what is Cesar's (pay your taxes). It says don't murder, don't steal, don't commit adultery, don't bear false witness against your neighbor, etc.. I don't need the government's laws to abide by laws from a higher power. I will follow the law unless it's something outside of the government's defined authority to enforce. Show me where in the Constitution it gives the government the authority to force a law abiding citizen to do something against their will. We used to call that extortion. The notion that the government knows best and we must do whatever they tell us has lead to many countries slaughtering its citizens after a dictator took power. If you don't take a stand when the government steps out of line, you'll regret it when they become unstoppable later on.



Theres so much here...:ironic:

I’ll leave it alone though because it’ll cause too many problems for the mods. 

I suggest we get away from religion and politics in this thread...


----------



## Chauncey Gardiner

wacbzz said:


> Theres so much here...:ironic:
> 
> I’ll leave it alone though because it’ll cause too many problems for the mods.
> 
> I suggest we get away from religion and politics in this thread...



From a guy with this in every post - The beauty of Science hugely outranks the charms of superstition


:sigh:  Please be so kind to enlighten us as to its meaning. Pray tell it isn't meant as a slight to members that have faith.  :sigh:


----------



## archimedes

Yes, if it was not already crystal clear, religious debate as well as political content are inappropriate in this portion of CPF.


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## wacbzz

Chauncey Gardiner said:


> From a guy with this in every post - The beauty of Science hugely outranks the charms of superstition
> 
> 
> :sigh:  Please be so kind to enlighten us as to its meaning. Pray tell it isn't meant as a slight to members that have faith.  :sigh:



I stopped by the bait shop again. Nothing new there but the same grumpy old men still talking about their dragons.


----------



## Johnnyh

wacbzz said:


> I stopped by the bait shop again. Nothing new there but the same grumpy old men still talking about their dragons.



What am I missing here? Grumpy men talking dragons at a bait shop...dragons...grumpy old men...bait shop...what’s it all mean? 🤔🤔


----------



## bigburly912

Johnnyh said:


> What am I missing here? Grumpy men talking dragons at a bait shop...dragons...grumpy old men...bait shop...what’s it all mean? 🤔🤔



He is trying to talk down religious people as crazy old superstitious cooks.


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## Johnnyh

bigburly912 said:


> He is trying to talk down religious people as crazy old superstitious cooks.



Well, if that’s the case, see you at the bait shop! [emoji12]


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Empath

Back to square one.


----------

