# Rebel EOS vs Zebralight for outdoors



## candlelight001 (Mar 23, 2009)

Just got back from a desert camping trip. Had fun using my Fenix E01, and G2 w/ Malkoff. But at 2 am, when a gust of wind blew the comforter off my gf and I, then blew away my jacket and sleeping bag while I got up to set up the tent, I was reminded of the absolute indispensability of a good headlamp in the outdoors. Was wearing an old Tikka XP that I found under the truck seat. A good light, really like the diffuser, but I need something that will run lithiums. But now I want to get something new and good for camping and backpacking use. 

So, the new Rebel EOS, or one of the Zebralights? Must be useful for general camp use as well as night-hiking on faint and well worn trail (or looking for a bivy site when I misjudge the time). Won't be using it for mountaineeing or caving or anything. I have an old EOS, but the beam is a little narrow. Heard they fixed that on the new one.

I've compared the specs online, but am looking for real world outdoors experience here. 

Thanks!


----------



## kwieto (Mar 23, 2009)

From my point of view, for the outdoors (this is my primary use of the headlamp) you should look for something which has switchable light at least with two options: flood and spot. This is why some years ago I chosen Tikka XP and Myo XP, replacing the old Zoom (also Petzl) models.
And don't bother with the lamps mounted on the head-strap like Zebra. First, typical headlamp will give you much more comfort; and second, mini lamp, run from one battery, runs out of power very fast when you compare it to the 3xAA (or even AAA) headlamp.
It is OK as an "emergency" solution, but not for the daily use of a headlamp.

You can consider some Mammut products, recently I've bought X-zoom (smoothly regulated beam from Spot to Flood) and I am quite impressed in comparison to Myo XP (which in fact is a really good headlamp). Manufacturer says nothing about the lithiums, but you can find information on the internet shops' sites that it accepts that kind of batteries.

Why using lithiums is important for you?


----------



## Shorty66 (Mar 23, 2009)

You are right, if you are outdoors, sometimes throw is really helpfull.
Though, i dont like throw on a headlamp: I like to have an uniform beampattern like the zebras have as it makes it easier to distinguish between obstacles on the trail then with a bright hotspot and some faint spill.
Also throw on a headlamp means you have to turn your head quite precise and for anything you`d like to see.

Thats why i am carring a zebralight for the head and a dedicated thrower for the hand if i need to look further down the trail or search for a biviplace offtrail.

I believe you never worn a zebralight. At first, it seemed strange to me too, like a normal flashlight with a headstrap but thats far from true.
The headstrap is really nice and as the zebras are angeld it gives you better freedom than any petzl light in terms off turning the light around.

I must admit, that for the heavier h60 (100g) the silicon headband holder might bent a little too much - it will bounce a little while running. Walking is just great. With the smaller zebras the silicon hodler is really good.


----------



## jankj (Mar 23, 2009)

kwieto said:


> From my point of view, for the outdoors (this is my primary use of the headlamp) you should look for something which has switchable light at least with two options: flood and spot. This is why some years ago I chosen Tikka XP and Myo XP, replacing the old Zoom (also Petzl) models.



Agreed. Flood is good for working. When walking a good balance between throw and flood is good (you want to see where you put your feet AND at the same time look ahead to see what's further down the trail - or which direction you should choose). 



kwieto said:


> And don't bother with the lamps mounted on the head-strap like Zebra. First, typical headlamp will give you much more comfort



You obviously has not ever tried the zebra. I have the H50, and it is absolutely the lightest and most comfortable headlamp I've ever tried. 




kwieto said:


> and second, mini lamp, run from one battery, runs out of power very fast when you compare it to the 3xAA (or even AAA) headlamp.



Again, not true for the zebra. . . specs for the H50: 


Low *2.6* lm for 3.5 days
Medium *13* lm for 19 hr
High *66* lm for 2 hr 20 min
Bear in mind that you hardly ever use the high setting - just occasional bursts to get an overview, find what you're looking for etc. And that runtime is REGULATED. Most 3*AA or 3*AAA will be unregulated, meaning the ligth will be dimmer when the batteries are run down. 

Unregulated is not necessarily bad - they will provide a dim, still useable light for hours and hours. Your eyes adjust to the reduced output, so you don't really notice it. 

FYI, one AA battery contains about as much energy as three AAA's. . . but it takes rather sophisticated drivers to convert this 1.2V into the 3.6-3.7V that drives the led.


----------



## kwieto (Mar 23, 2009)

Shorty66 said:


> I like to have an uniform beampattern like the zebras have as it makes it easier to distinguish between obstacles on the trail then with a bright hotspot and some faint spill.



This is why I am talking about a headlamp with two options: Spot and Flood. On the camp site I typically use Flood option. For walking too, but sometimes, when I see something interesting far away, I'm easily switching to the Spot mode.
OK, if your light don't have ability to change the beam, the solution that you have main beam (Spot) surrounded by little darker external beam (spill) is OK. But IMO ability to change the beam width is far, far better 
Consider the situation when you want to lighten nearest area (1-2m around) on the camp site. If you can't change the beam width, you have unwelcome, blinding spot in the center.
Diffuser gives more equable, smooth light, ideal for lightening the camp area.



Shorty66 said:


> Also throw on a headlamp means you have to turn your head quite precise and for anything you`d like to see.



Yes, this is why you use it only when it is needed. And remember, that the spot circle becomes more and more wide when you increase the distance. I tested a headlamp with a 5 percent spot and in fact, when you are talking about the range c.a. 100m, it could be narrower.
The benefit of the spot light is that your lamp is not lighening anything you *don't* like to see :")



Shorty66 said:


> Thats why i am carring a zebralight for the head and a dedicated thrower for the hand if i need to look further down the trail or search for a biviplace offtrail.



The consequence is that you have to take two lamps, not one. The package becomes heavier and you don't have both hands free on the trip. 



Shorty66 said:


> I believe you never worn a zebralight.



Yes, you are right.
The main reason why I scratched that kind of laps from the list is the power consumption. Longest running model, H60, works about 4h when you use maximum (110lm version). This is really short time!, compare it to the Myo RXP, which on the 140lm setting works 50h (12,5 times longer!)
And RXP is consuming batteries very fast, Myo XP runs 80h on the maximum setting (85lm), which makes it 20 times longer than H60, and i.e. Mammut X-zoom works 120h (30 times longer than H60)
And I don't want to change batteries every day on the camp site - it makes thing complicated and you wouldn't like doing it during a heavy rain 

Also consider that the Zebra's running time is given for lithiums, and Petzl's or Mammut's - for typical alkalines.

The headstrap is only addition to calculations above.



Shorty66 said:


> The headstrap is really nice and as the zebras are angeld it gives you better freedom than any petzl light in terms off turning the light around.



OK, but from the other hand, the silicone holder will probably not allow to change the angle of the head as easily as in the "typical" headlamp.
Imagine that you are operating i.e. with a gloves...
Nevertheless, the main reason why I wouldn't choose Zebra or other lamps like it is that you need to change batteries very often, as well as need to have quite big amount of spare ones in the backpack when you go i.e. for a 2-week trip. 
Even for a weekend camp you should take at least one spare battery.


----------



## kwieto (Mar 23, 2009)

jankj said:


> Low *2.6* lm for 3.5 days


Do you think, that the 2,6 lm is really useful?
In comparison, Myo XP on the lowest setting (probably more comparable with the "medium" in Zebra) works 180h, which is 7,5 days. X-zoom works 300h, which makes 12,5 days.


jankj said:


> Medium *13* lm for 19 hr


Again, Myo XP on MID: 100h and X-zoom: 170h


jankj said:


> High *66* lm for 2 hr 20 min


And last data: Myo XP on Max: 80h, and X-zoom: 120h.
Both are stronger than H50

Power consumption for the other headlamps, like BD Icon or PT Apex are more or less between these two listed above.

PT EOS II (3xAAA, 50lm) gives 113h on the max setting (1h regulated)

For regulated and non regulated: Regulated light is nice, but it works only for some time. Most of lamps have some period when the light is regulated, then they become not regulated. The cost is that the regulated light runs out your batteries little faster...
For one night trip i probably would prefer regulated light. If I am taking the lamp for one or two week trekking, regulation just doesn't matter


----------



## nzbazza (Mar 23, 2009)

I have the new 50lm rebel EOS and a H50, I don't have one of the H30 or H501 for comparison. I find for tramping (hiking) the EOS is the best all-round HL, the beam is a smooth medium flood, with reasonable throw. I find low good for camp tasks, medium is good enough for walking at night along rough routes with the occasional use of hi for spotting.

The H50 is great for around the camp but I don't find it any good for night hiking.

As an experiment I suggest you try running the Myo XP on high for about 70 hrs and then see what amount of light output you have, then insert some fresh batteries and compare the difference.


----------



## kwieto (Mar 23, 2009)

nzbazza said:


> As an experiment I suggest you try running the Myo XP on high for about 70 hrs and then see what amount of light output you have, then insert some fresh batteries and compare the difference.



I already did it, when I was comparing Myo XP and X-zoom.
I put fresh, half used and almost drained (red blinking control led) alkalines.

The difference is really huge. But from the other hand, if the light were regulated, after 70h I would see only darkness...


----------



## jankj (Mar 23, 2009)

kwieto said:


> Do you think, that the 2,6 lm is really useful?



Yes, I do. When camping I use this setting almost exclusively. Perfect for finding stuff in your bag, doing stuff and stomping around camp site without blinding your friends. I use medium and high for shorter bursts when I need more light. 

Of course - if 2 and 13 lumens weren't enough for 95% of the stuff I need a light for when camping then my choice would have been different. 

I'm glad your equipment is working for you, and I certainly respect your recommendations - I haven't tried them, but they all are well respected lights. And you've made well informed choices to find stuff that works for you. But don't disqualify other equipment before you've tried it! Some of the points you are sceptical about: 


Silicone bracket: They work well.
Gloves: Yes, I can operate H50 with gloves. Yes, I can turn the light in the silicone bracket with gloves. In fact, it's so easy I've never considered it a problem.
Walking with the zebra: Haven't really done much of it, can't really comment. The zebra is not really made for walking, IMO. Stomping around camp site is certainly no problem. Walking/hiking or running I can see where I'm putting my feet, but then again I definitively would like more throw to see things in a distance.
Power consumption: Depends on your needs. Not perfect for you may be very good for others.
And btw: Quoted runtimes are with nimh.



kwieto said:


> compare it to the Myo RXP, which on the 140lm setting works 50h (12,5 times longer!)
> And RXP is consuming batteries very fast, Myo XP runs 80h on the maximum setting (85lm), which makes it 20 times longer than H60, and i.e. Mammut X-zoom works 120h (30 times longer than H60)



Notice the phrasing: 140 lumens SETTING! It is physically impossible to deliver 140 lumens for 50 hours with that kind of battery package. No way - the light gets dimmer and dimmer, it's unregulated at depleted batteries . . . Not necessarily a bad thing, but the 50 hours claim is deceiving. 

Comparing run time for regulated and unregulated/semi regulated lights makes as much sense as comparing apples and oranges. These are (probably) all good lights, but they are not the same.


----------



## Shorty66 (Mar 23, 2009)

I have already used the Tikka, Tikka Plus, Zipka, Tikka XP and Myo XP from Petzl, the Cosmo and the Gizmo from Black Diamond and H60 & H50 form zebralight.

I consider the Zebras as the best lights in terms of efficiency and usablility an oxtended trekking/mountain/climbing trips of about ten days each.

First, i thought just like you: i liked the Petzls and didnt see the need for regulation. In fact i often didn`t change batterys in between the trips because i didn`t need to.
While thats nice, the Petzls only gave me very little light compared tho the zebras. Even though the tikka xp is often rated 35lumen, i don`t think, that its any brighter than the medium on the Zebras (20lumen).
The 35 lumen are measured (if ever) right at the start and are quickly down to about 20lumen. After that, there is a long period of time, where the tikka Xp gives you around 5-10 lumen. Thats brighter than the low on the zebras, but the plastic Diffuser eats so much light, that the zebras are brighter on low than a tikka XP with diffuser at about half of the runtime.

I Often use the 3lm setting of the H60 for walking at night. In rather easy terrain (forrest...) its brigh enough to prevent me from falling but dim enough to preserve lots of night vision.


I agree, that the h50 is not that suitable for walking like the other Zebras with 80degree angle of light. I think, zebra is on the right way in making every light they have 80 degree.

Once i thought too, that a headlamp needs considerable throw to get along my way. But in fact i consider the combination of two lights (using the same energy source, 14500s) much more useful.
You are right, that its annoying to not have your handy free while walking, but if you want to look further down the trail to make a dicision which way to go, you need to stop anyway. And a handheld thrower is much easier to operate than a headlamp with throw. As you already mentioned, most headlamps which include Throw do not htrow that well. They do throw, but a dedicated thrower is much more usable on the trail as you sometimes just need some really good throw which a headlamp just wont deliver.

In addition, if you are carring to lights (which doesnt have to be any heavier than those bulky topstrap headlamps like the Myo (r)xp) you always have another light in case one fails.


----------



## kwieto (Mar 23, 2009)

jankj said:


> But don't disqualify other equipment before you've tried it!



OK, OK! :")
If there were not demand for Zebras, they wouldn't make them (and the same conclusion for any other light).
As I said, the major thing for me is the power efficiency. 
Even if running time was the same (calculating 3x 1AA for Zebra and 1x 3AA for others), I would prefer lamp where change batteries is needed less often. I just don't want to remember about spare batteries all the time.
But It is not, typical headlamps are more efficient.



jankj said:


> Some of the points you are sceptical about:
> 
> 
> Silicone bracket: They work well.



My doubts are not taken from nowhere. I worked with some solutions (like biking lights) where holder is made from the rubber and usually it has some inertia when you are adjusting it and/or makes the whole thing not as stable as it should. 
Maybe it is not a problem for Zebra's holder, but please see that post:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2735031&postcount=35



jankj said:


> Gloves: Yes, I can operate H50 with gloves. Yes, I can turn the light in the silicone bracket with gloves. In fact, it's so easy I've never considered it a problem.


 I don't think about simple powering it, but i.e. adjusting the angle. This is tiny tube, so when you have big, winter gloves on, or the lamp and your fingers/gloves are wet from the rain/snow, it can be a little trouble. Maybe it isn't, or you just don't use the lamp in above conditions (and Zebra's flood type of light probably don't need much adjustments)



jankj said:


> Walking with the zebra: Haven't really done much of it, can't really comment. The zebra is not really made for walking, IMO. Stomping around camp site is certainly no problem. Walking/hiking or running I can see where I'm putting my feet, but then again I definitively would like more throw to see things in a distance.



Remember my first post, I said that (in my opinion) for outdoord two beam modes (Spot and Flood) are best. If you can smoothly adjust the beam between these two options, it is even better :")



jankj said:


> Power consumption: Depends on your needs. Not perfect for you may be very good for others.


 Yes, of course.
As I said, from my point of view, outdoors purposes makes the power efficiency one of the major things to consider. I.e. Lamps like Petzl Ultra are nice, bright, but running time is extremely short. And what to do if the lamp after several days will run out of power and you don't have ability to charge batteries?
The same doubts I have for Zebra.



jankj said:


> And btw: Quoted runtimes are with nimh.



OK, sorry. Other Zebra's are driven by Li-On's and I expected that also this one.




jankj said:


> Notice the phrasing: 140 lumens SETTING! It is physically impossible to deliver 140 lumens for 50 hours with that kind of battery package. No way - the light gets dimmer and dimmer, it's unregulated at depleted batteries . . . Not necessarily a bad thing, but the 50 hours claim is deceiving.



Yes, and this is why I said that regulated time is very short (in fact 140lm output in RXP isn't regulated at all). And this is why manufacturers are giving in specifications the data about range of light after some period. 
I.e after 10h, RXP range will drop from 77m to 21m; for XP it will be drop from 72m to 39; and for X-zoom it will be from 120m to 59m range.
During these 10h in H50 you will have to change batteries 3 times (I don't count inserting the first battery) and with it's flood light you probably don't get as good range as the others (I can't find any data of the H50 lightening range)
This is why I said that for longer outdoor trips I don't care about regulation. After a few days (semi)regulated light in fact will be far away it's regulated period... giving even less light than non-regulated, because it drained batteries faster.


----------



## Phaserburn (Mar 23, 2009)

kwieto, how do you feel the beam quality is on the X-Zoom? Would you get it over the new Petzl RXP?


----------



## Shorty66 (Mar 23, 2009)

kwieto said:


> Maybe it is not a problem for Zebra's holder, but please see that post:
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2735031&postcount=35



Thats only an issue with the h60 and only while running, as i said in my last post. 

You should really try and actually use as zebralight before talking bad about it here. You seem to have no clue how well a zebralight works. As well as you dont seem to know what the term efficiency means.


----------



## kwieto (Mar 23, 2009)

Phaserburn said:


> kwieto, how do you feel the beam quality is on the X-Zoom? Would you get it over the new Petzl RXP?



I didn't tested it with RXP version, but you can see the sample photo in comparison to the Myo XP here:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2888382&postcount=26

And according to specifications, RXP beam is similar to XP range (the difference is 5 meters on the Maximum setting).

I like that X-zoom have more concentrated light and, compared to Myo XP, almost no spill on the Spot setting. This make it pretty good searchlight.
On the Flood setting both lights covers similar area (X-zoom is a little marrower), and again, spill in the Myo is bigger. Regardless of settings, beam shape in X-zoom is regular, with hard edges of the main beam. In Myo, transition from Spot into Spill is more smooth, making an impression that quite big part of the beam is wasted around.

My first assumptions are that both lamps, Myo XP and X-zoom, are designed for different purposes.
Myo is more a "city light" in the meaning that it is designed for night runs, walking, etc.
X-zoom is a "mountain" headlamp, with features more suitable for that use.
Of course, Myo XP will be also very good for mountaineering, but X-zoom is just better for that.


----------



## drmaxx (Mar 23, 2009)

candlelight001 said:


> So, the new Rebel EOS, or one of the Zebralights? Must be useful for general camp use as well as night-hiking on faint and well worn trail (or looking for a bivy site when I misjudge the time). Won't be using it for mountaineeing or caving or anything.



I can comment on the Zebralight. I do own the H50 and use it very frequently. It is very useful for general camp use, but I wont use it for night-hiking, especially not on worn or dangerous trails. I am not sure whether the new H501 with the narrower beam would be better. Experience will tell. 

My preference on worn trails is a light that gives me some possibilities to see ahead. Generally, I only need very little light in front of my feet (as pointed out by others a few lumen light will do) but you need some light 15 - 30 feet ahead to identify where the trail is going. You don't get that from the Zebralights. (I am using PT Apex for these kind of hikes).

Also, I would not consider finding a bivi place a good use of Zebralight. You simply need more throw for that. However, nothing beats the Zebralight for prepping the bivi place. 

Something else to consider is the the choice of batteries. The EOS is AAA whereas the Zebralight is AA. I tend to minimize the number of battery types I take on a trip. In my case I carry AA only (GPS and all the lights). I also tend to have more then one light with me - especially when I am hiking at night. But this is CPF - so no need to defend this habit :laughing:.


----------



## Shorty66 (Mar 23, 2009)

In my opionion the more narrow 80degree beam of the H30/60/501 is very well suited for dangerey trails and general night hiking. 
You are perfectly right, that it wont do for bivi place searching. Thats the reason why i carry two lights.

In my opionion, the Myo XP and Tikka Xp are to weak for bivi place searching, too. They are nice lights though - i would not recommend anyone who is confident with his Myo XP to buy a zebralight instead. 
Though, the Zebralights got some obvious advantages over almost any other currently avaible headlamps (short of scurion and the like...)


----------



## kwieto (Mar 23, 2009)

Shorty66 said:


> You should really try and actually use as zebralight before talking bad about it here. You seem to have no clue how well a zebralight works. As well as you dont seem to know what the term efficiency means.



Heh, I don't want to make fight against Zebra. If you use it and it suits you, that's perfect!

I have just too much doubts about it.
I didn't ever count it in hours, but when I last used Myo XP in mountains, after about 10 days of usage (usually Low or Mid setting) the control led went into the orange - which mean that 70% of the battery is discharged (I used 2700mAh NiMH inside). And till that time the lightness was quite enough for me.
I wonder how many batteries I should use in Zebralight to get similar result?
Maybe it is more efficient when you calculate how many lumens it takes from 1mAh of battery (I just don't know), but for me more important is answer for a simple question - if after a week of running the light from one batteries set I have enough power for another 5 days, or not?

And I looked through some test photos, like that:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v14/redmodels/Beamshots Short/ZebraLight.jpg

The 2,8lm output is just too little for me.

Maybe I will change the opinion when I will have opportunity to play with that light, but at present I think that typical headlamp is more universal.
But as I said - if you use it, and you are satisfied - that's perfect!


----------



## cave dave (Mar 23, 2009)

Zebra also rates their outputs in near true out the front lumens while Pezel uses emitter lumens. So the Zebralight is quite a bit brighter at the same claimed lumen values.

The Petzl runtimes are on alkalines and drop in output quite quickly. If you use Nimh in the Petzl the output will start out less but have a flatter discharge curves that ends more abruptly without the long dim tail that gives you those ridiculous runtime claims.

If you are happy using ,<3lm to get those extended 50 hr runtimes, then you could just use the Zebra on its lowest setting the whole time for 72 hrs and still burst to max if you need it. Once the Petzl has severely dropped out of regulation you won't be able to get that highest brightness back without changing batteries.

So far I haven't found a perfect headlamp. I like the slide over diffuser feature of the Petzl's but the lights are so lame in other areas I don't use the Petzl's anymore. My go to all purpose headlamp is a reflector modded EOS which gives a good combo of throw and spill, which is good for hiking, camp setup, etc, but is marginal for reading. I use a Zebralight h50 when I read, cook, set up camp etc. I can go a week in the backcountry no problem on one AA nimh battery.

My ultimate small headlamp would be a H51 like light with a small reflector and a slide over diffuser running off 1AA battery.


----------



## Shorty66 (Mar 23, 2009)

My perfect backcountry light would be a h501 with a low loss apsh. Lens for throw. Though i am quite happy with the two flashlights way and i would only want that asph. lens if it would be really well integrated.


----------



## cave dave (Mar 23, 2009)

I think kwieto is the victum of intentionally misleading advertising on the part of Petzl.

Check out some unbiased reviews like this one:
http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/petzl_myoxp.htm
This is the older luxeoon version.

Actual lumens on max: around 30lm
Claimed runtime: 70hrs
Actual runtime to 50%: 5 hr 23 min


----------



## drmaxx (Mar 23, 2009)

cave dave said:


> I think kwieto is the victum of intentionally misleading advertising on the part of Petzl.



There is no doubt: Calling an unregulated light more efficient because it runs for 25 hours is like calling me the better runner, because I can go for 10 hours during a hike - while all these highly trained marathon runners collaps after 2.5 hour! 

But he still has a point there. Fully regulated lights usually are less efficient due to the needed regulation (assuming that the other don't just use a resistor to burn the excess voltage). For a zebralight running NiMH, this is somewhere around 20% energy that is fried in the step up electronics. 
I know this can be improved by using different battery set-ups - but still: for the Zebralight this might be a point you want to consider.


----------



## Woods Walker (Mar 23, 2009)

I have the 50 lumen 2 mode EOS work light, 50 lumen 4-mode EOS and a H50. For camp work the ZL is the best. For trail work I like the beam of the EOS better. So if I could only have one it would be the 50 lumen 4-mode EOS. But all that being said I use the Zebra light more and it is the most comfortable headlamp going.


----------



## kwieto (Mar 23, 2009)

cave dave said:


> If you are happy using ,<3lm to get those extended 50 hr runtimes, then you could just use the Zebra on its lowest setting the whole time for 72 hrs and still burst to max if you need it.



But this is just demagogy.
If I run Myo on the lowest settings, I will get two benefits:

1. I wil have more light than Zebra gives on the lowest settings
2. After 50hrs runtime in the LOW, when I switch to the highest setting probably it will be comparable to the Zebra on the same level. And because of optics, the throw could be even further.

After 50h runtime on the lowest setting, how long you can use maximum in H50? 40 minutes?
In fact you should compare Zebra's MID to Petzl LOW. Then after 50h you are after three battery changes and still only about 40 minutes left if you want to use High mode.



drmaxx said:


> There is no doubt: Calling an unregulated light more efficient because it runs for 25 hours is like calling me the better runner, because I can go for 10 hours during a hike - while all these highly trained marathon runners collaps after 2.5 hour!



Again, demagogy.
Sometimes you more need strength, sometimes endurance.
Sprinter is much more faster than a marathon runner - but his "running time" is counted in seconds...
Please read what I am writing above - I am repeating it again: if you want to use light for a shorter time, but giving you maximum power all that time (say it: "sprinter") regulated light will be better.
But sometimes you can live with a light which becomes more and more dim, but the priority is to keep it as long as possible.
In climbing, if you are "just" strong, very often it just doesn't work. The more welcome situation is maybe less strength, but more endurance.
What for you need more strength, if you will run out of it in the middle of your way up?

I think the same about an outdoor light.
When I bought X-zoom, I was considering why they didn't make it regulated, if they put so much effort to well-think other features?
But after some time I think that leaving this light without regulation was probably also well-thought. Just the priority was to make it running longer - even if it mean dimmer after some period.
Compare Myo XP and Myo RXP. RXP is (semi)regulated. Light range is very similar for both lamps, but the running time is not.
And yes, for my needs XP is better than RXP.


----------



## Woods Walker (Mar 23, 2009)

I have some unregulated headlamps. The PT Aurora and Tikka plus. The problem is they can't use lithium batteries so for winter this makes them a no-go. The EOS, APEX and Zebralights are regulated and working with lithiums are better for some of the cold weather camping I often do.







On this trip I used the both the EOS and Zebralight H50. The greater throw of the EOS helped me find a good camp area as the light snow moved in at dusk. It gets dark fast in the woods. Even with a battery pack under the hat like I can do with the APEX if using alkaline or NiMH batteries when the temps fall below zero with a wind chill much colder these batteries are not going to last more than a few hours despite any 100 listed hours whatever DD or not. But for cutting fire wood and setting up the stove it is hard to beat the ZL. Plus the low 2.6 lumens is perfect for curling up around the stove and working it.






These are tools so not every tool is perect for every job. This is one reason why I dislike theads that compare apples to oranges. The ZL is for camp and headlamps with more throw are for the trail. I have fallen a sleep with the ZL still on my head. But on the down side the Al body that is nice heat sink feels very cold next to my head so often wear it over the face mask when working outside the heated shelter. I can hike on known trails or look for wood around camp using a ZL but not so much with less known ground.


----------



## Alan B (Mar 23, 2009)

candlelight001 said:


> Just got back from a desert camping trip. Had fun using my Fenix E01, and G2 w/ Malkoff. But at 2 am, when a gust of wind blew the comforter off my gf and I, then blew away my jacket and sleeping bag while I got up to set up the tent, I was reminded of the absolute indispensability of a good headlamp in the outdoors. Was wearing an old Tikka XP that I found under the truck seat. A good light, really like the diffuser, but I need something that will run lithiums. But now I want to get something new and good for camping and backpacking use.
> 
> So, the new Rebel EOS, or one of the Zebralights? Must be useful for general camp use as well as night-hiking on faint and well worn trail (or looking for a bivy site when I misjudge the time). Won't be using it for mountaineeing or caving or anything. I have an old EOS, but the beam is a little narrow. Heard they fixed that on the new one.
> ...


 
I have the Myo XP and the Zebralight H50 and H30. They are each excellent but they are different. The Myo XP is comfortable and has a lot of battery power with 3 AA cells. The flip-down diffuser is clever and extremely nice giving the choice of flood versus throw. The Zebralights have wonderful wide beams and are especially miserly on low power settings, getting long runtimes out of a single cell.

Weight wise the Myo is pretty large and heavy, compared to the Zebralight. It has that large battery lump in the rear so laying down to read is not workable.

The Tikka XP uses three AAA batteries. For me that is a non-starter. Especially for backpacking the battery types must be shared with other devices, and AAA are not likely to make the cut for me. I'm going to use AA or CR123 and try to use just one type.

For serious night hiking I would choose the Myo XP or the newer RXP. With three AA cells and lots of control over light levels (especially with the RXP) you can run a long time. The selection between flood and throw is great.

For around camp the XP or RXP are too large, heavy and bulky. The Zebralight is much more suitable.

If you are backpacking then you may be counting grams, and here is where it gets tougher. In that case I would forgo the XP/RXP and go with a handheld light and the Zebralight. I would probably use the new H501 Zebralight with the narrower beam and a single AA, combined with a handheld single AA light, and use lithium AAs for their light weight and good energy and low temperature capability. If I wanted to standardize on CR123 then I would choose the H30 Zebralight and a good multilevel CR123 handheld light. A single level light could also work here, since the headlamp has varying levels so the long runtime is there and the handheld used for brief bright beams as needed. While the Zebralight may not be quite as good for throw when hiking, the handheld light can be brought into play for those brief moments when it is required. In no case am I going to depend on one light for everything, so a good light headlamp and handheld light in combination is a great setup. Remember, each ounce you backpack is a LOT.

The Zebralight will run for a really long time if you stay off the high setting. Hiking in the dark requires a lot less light than put out by the high setting, medium works well. Remember that Zebralight medium is very similar to a stock 2D [email protected] in light output. It is a lot of light when it is really dark out. Pulling out a handheld light for brief bursts is more convenient than changing the diffusion on the headlamp, also, and the lower angle of the handheld light helps give contrast to the trail that turning the headlamp beam up does not accomplish.

Since you already have a Malkoff in the G2, the Zebralight H30 would be a good companion for a lightweight system sharing the same cr123 battery type.

Good Luck in your selection..


----------



## drmaxx (Mar 24, 2009)

Woods Walker said:


>



Nice stove!!:twothumbs:


----------



## kwieto (Mar 24, 2009)

Below you can find the comparison of the Myo XP (blue one, with Luxeon LED) light on new and partly drainded NiMH's
I used these batteries during my last hollidays in winter, temperature was between c.a. -10 degree in the night and 0 during the day. I used my headlamp during several evening skitours, or when I was cutting the wood, etc.
Battery compartment was outside, I was not hiding it under the cap.

Then you have photos made from 27m distance presenting the difference between the light on fresh and used batteries:






Yes, the light on the right side is dimmer. But still easily reaches 27m (the hall was too short for testing longer distance) and is enough to illuminate anything in that range. Remembering that this is the status after 10 day usage in rather cold temperatures, for me is enough.
The wall height is 5m.

To be not suspected that I am promoting the Myo, the same batteries inside the X-zoom:





According to two light sources used at once (one on head and second in hands): again, it depends of the usage. I can't imagine comfortable use of two light sources i.e. when I am touring and have skiing poles in both hands. The same for walking with poles. I can adjust headlamp without taking the pole strap from my hand, where to maneuvre with hand light I should take the pole out of my hands - which makes the whole thing more complicated than with a headlamp.
Of course, I am just "finding faults", but - as I mentioned - everything depends on what you need the light for. For easier terrain the combination of hand throw and head flood will be OK.


----------



## Ainsley (Mar 24, 2009)

Alan B said:


> Since you already have a Malkoff in the G2, the Zebralight H30 would be a good companion for a lightweight system sharing the same cr123 battery type.



+1. I use my H30 along with my 6p with a Derrelight warm drop-in and I find it to be the perfect combo for my uses. The H30 really excels at working around camp, where the nice smooth flood doesn't blind you.


----------



## Alan B (Mar 24, 2009)

kwieto said:


> ...
> 
> According to two light sources used at once (one on head and second in hands): again, it depends of the usage. I can't imagine comfortable use of two light sources i.e. when I am touring and have skiing poles in both hands. The same for walking with poles. I can adjust headlamp without taking the pole strap from my hand, where to maneuvre with hand light I should take the pole out of my hands - which makes the whole thing more complicated than with a headlamp...



You are probably correct for your situation. The original poster was hiking in the desert, which is the type of situation I am in. Ski poles are not a problem there, and reaching for a convenient small light for one hand is a non problem. Perhaps you can imagine hiking in a desert and not having any use for ski poles. Also, all weight must be carried on the back rather than a sled, so grams count even more. The lumen-hours per gram efficiency of the Zebralight is much higher than most other headlamps, and a single cell used on low and medium can last for many days of an outing (one poster on CPF did weeks in the Amazon on a single lithium AA cell). I really like my Petzl, but their claims for lumens and runtimes are simply misleading advertising fabrications. My H30 on high blows away my Myo XP on diffused high, even with the SSC LED mod installed.

The other advantage of the Zebralights is size. I can put a ZL in a small zip-lock and carry it in a pocket without notice all day long. It normally rides in a small pocket in my briefcase so it is always close by. The other headlamps are much larger and less likely to be available unless the use is preplanned.

I still use my Myo XP for outings where weight is not a concern and throw is useful. In the case of a short hike I might well choose it but the ZL would make a good backup. If it was a day hike that might end in darkness the ZL would more likely get the job. I'm planning to get an RXP for the feature that allows each level to be chosen. This allows the light level to be selected and the battery life maximized.

Enjoy,


----------



## Linger (Mar 24, 2009)

kwieto said:


> I can't imagine comfortable use of two light sources i.e. when I am touring and have skiing poles in both hands. The same for walking with poles.


I get the winter hiking thing, do it myself as well. A great option is a torso light: a torsolight on flood with a headlamp on spot works very well. Headlamp can be on-demand as well to be miserly with power consumption.
(Kwieto - I realise you're good with your set up, I just felt like chipping in)


----------



## Woods Walker (Mar 25, 2009)

drmaxx said:


> Nice stove!!:twothumbs:


 
The stove is a God send for very cold weather. The cold is one reason why I like regulated headlamps and flashlights that can use lithium CR123 or AA/AAA. Both the Rebel EOS and Zebralights fall into this class. Now I know some people say that other battery types may not crash in output during some winter outings but staying outside for part of the night in the cold and then heading back to a warm lodge etc is not the same thing. Even with the tent stove it gets very cold as it runs down within the hour after turning in. Also during the day travel the cold is like water. It works it's way into everything. Heck even when I get home and take the gear out of the pack to dry hours later one can feel the cold inside the pack. So for me NiMH or standard copper tops are a no go for winter trips when camping out. They just give up the ghost. This may not be the case with everyone but I got to have lithiums and for the most part that means regulated lights.

As for the issue of hiking poles and two lights I do use poles with the pulk. They can be seen in the photo. So often a flashlight is not easy to use. I do sometimes keep one around my neck for spot lighting longer range stuff that most headlamps just can't do however some of the newer ones are getting better at this. For years used a G2Z or Inova T3 and then after hanging out here got a L2D Q5 for this. Very good on switch backs and to keep myself from getting boxed in. More important with the sled as I don't want to have the darn thing take me off a cliff. So when the area gets cliffy (is that a word) I crack out the flashlight hiking poles or not. The EOS on high almost has enough throw and flood for this so often just make do. Darn L2D-Q5 has a near perfect beam for the pulk. Good mix of flood and throw. Still no matter what the Zebralight wins hands down for a camp light and jobs just outside of camp like getting wood etc.


----------



## kwieto (Mar 25, 2009)

linger said:


> (Kwieto - I realise you're good with your set up, I just felt like chipping in)


 
You know, the "best choice" in outdoors is the compromise between weight, usability, durability and so on.
And "outdoors" is so wide definition, that probably you don't find ideal solution for everyone.

The major problem with two lamps for me is that... there are two of them :")
Two things to manage, two things to carry on, two things to remember about, and two things to keep an eye on them. 
I can imagine many (too many, for me) situations, when it will not work. Skiing poles is the simpliest example, I mentioned them because I saw the poles on the Woods Walker's photos (nice stove, by the way :"P).
But there are other things: On the camp area, you probably put the "spot" light away, using just the flood lamp, because it is more useful for that purpose. Then, if you want to see something in the distant range, first question is "where did I put my flashlight?"
Other problem is the risk that i.e. during breaking through the bushes, or in many other situaions during a trip, the second light (turned off untill you need it), attached to your belt or rucksack, can be easily lost. You can hide it in your pocket, but then taking it out when you need it gets more complicated, especially if you have heavy and bulky rucksack.
The simplicity was the reason why I didn't choose i.e. light from Silva. These lamps have removable diffuser which also gives too many options that you will lose that part, in comparison to the easy flip-on solution used by Petzl (Myo XP or Tikka XP)

On my outdoor trips I'm counting the grams like Alan B (it's not nice to have a 25-30kg rucksack on your back), but I'm also counting how many things I have to manage, take care and keep an eye.
For me, Zebralight is a very good solution as a supportive, or backup solution, but not the main light.

EDIT:
One thing makes me wonder. Woods Walker said that to use lithiums the regulated light is necessary. But there are 1,5V lithiums on the market, and using that kind shouldn't be any problem even for non regulated lights?
I am deliberating about that, because i.e. X-zoom is not regulated and the distributor in my country said that is not any danger or problem to use lithiums in that lamp... Should I trust him or not (and if not, why)?


----------



## Alan B (Mar 25, 2009)

kwieto said:


> ...
> 
> EDIT:
> One thing makes me wonder. Woods Walker said that to use lithiums the regulated light is necessary. But there are 1,5V lithiums on the market, and using that kind shouldn't be any problem even for non regulated lights?
> I am deliberating about that, because i.e. X-zoom is not regulated and the distributor in my country said that is not any danger or problem to use lithiums in that lamp... Should I trust him or not (and if not, why)?



Depends on the design of the light - for example the older Myo XP often burns up if 1.5V lithium AAs are used. The design depends on the alkaline impedance and voltage sag. Other designs may not depend on this, so it is not a generic answer. Direct drive designs are sensitive to this.


----------



## Linger (Mar 27, 2009)

kwieto said:


> Then, if you want to see something in the distant range, first question is "where did I put my flashlight?"
> Other problem is the risk that i.e. during breaking through the bushes, or in many other situaions during a trip, the second light (turned off untill you need it), attached to your belt or rucksack, can be easily lost.


 
True, sometimes two can complicate things. Other times when both hands are busy, for example x-country skiing, having a 2nd mounted light is helpful.

re: wanting to see something in the distance - yes, it is true. My camping is usually relaxed and i've got time to grab a spot, but you are correct.

re: possibly losing 2nd light - yes, you're right; would be required to keep track of all your gear.

*My issue with Zebra - it's really appealing for so many reasons... but it doesn't have range and so i'm afraid it'd be useless for pathfinding at night. This means zebra doesn't help in those 'what if' situations.
But i really like the design - small, sleek, effective...yet with the amazing dedicated flood the Zebra frees you and restricts you at the same time.

do you agree?


----------



## Woods Walker (Mar 27, 2009)

linger

As stated if I could only pick one it would be the Rebel EOS. It has a true low and enough throw for hiking. Also is regulated and the Rebel tends to have a better tint then the Cree Zebralights but guessing not the limited supply 5A. However I don't have to own only one so also use the Zebralight and nothing does what the Zebralight can as well.


----------



## jankj (Mar 28, 2009)

linger said:


> *My issue with Zebra - it's really appealing for so many reasons... but it doesn't have range and so i'm afraid it'd be useless for pathfinding at night. This means zebra doesn't help in those 'what if' situations.
> But i really like the design - small, sleek, effective...yet with the amazing dedicated flood the Zebra frees you and restricts you at the same time.
> 
> do you agree?



Yes, but with some comments: Some claim that the narrower flood on the H501 does give you just that little extra light ahead, so the lack of throw is not as immediate apparent. I'm curios to check this out - it will be a birthday present for my wife. 

Also, the need to look ahead is very situation specific. In many circumstances, natural or ambient lightning (stars, moon, distant illumination) will give you the "wide picture" of your surroundings if only you don't thrash your night vision. A very dim light will show you where to put your feet and at the same time allow your eyes to make use of this "area lightning" - you see the large shapes of the terrain, but not the small features. What you are missing is the ability to check the trail 50-100 meters ahead. Sometimes you really need to do this, most of the time you don't, provided you know where you are and where you are going. Turn on your throw light to check things out, and it's good bye night vision for a while. 

And of course, sometimes it is just plain pitch dark, pissing rain and you don't have any clue whatsoever.


----------



## kwieto (Mar 31, 2009)

I think the main problem is "what you need the light for"?

I tested new X-zoom during last weekend on some short skitour trip. This lamp is perfect if you walk in the mountains, and narrow, concentrated spot is great when you are looking for track marks along your route.
But from the other hand, on the bivy place I would prefer more flood...

The question is if you can afford for two lights, and if you want to carry two things (and weights) during the trip. If not, then the question is if you need the light more for walking with it, or more for evening camping?

For me, more important is ability to use the light during a night trip. In that case, I am not convinced to use only flood option. Also the lowest Zebra level, 2,8 lumen - I can walk only with a moonlight, when I need more light, I need *much* more, so 2,8 lumens is more or less useless for me.
Therefore for night walking/biking/skiing I prefer the light which has ability to enlight more distant obiects as well as the nearest area.

But if I would need the light just for camping, Zebra could be the best solution.

BTW, I tried lithiums with Both, Myo XP (led replaced to SSC) and X-zoom. Both worked well with those batteries.

And last remark about regulation. I think that "mountain" lights are designed to be also emergency lights. In that case, non regulated lamp can be better because it simply lasts longer. And even very poor light can be visible from a distant places (in theory, even one candle can be visible from c.a. 27 kilometers!*)

* and hundreds kilometers if we are talking about a place without atmosphere


----------



## Egsise (Apr 2, 2009)

kwieto, what if your one and only light fails, are you in trouble?
Always carry a backup, your life could depend on it.

ZL H50 and Fenix LD10 or TK20 is my choice for backpacking.


----------



## Campdavid (Apr 3, 2009)

Egsise said:


> kwieto, what if your one and only light fails, are you in trouble?
> Always carry a backup, your life could depend on it.
> 
> ZL H50 and Fenix LD10 or TK20 is my choice for backpacking.


 

I will second that comment, "Always carry a backup." Ever heard, "Two is one and one is none"? Basic preparedness for the outdoors!

Usually I don't get involved in threads like this one but just can't help myself in this case. To me, the things kwieto points out just don't make sense. If it's too difficult for a guy to keep track of a second light, he might want to reconsider spending time in the great outdoors. As for all the nonsense about run time and the big challenge of changing batteries again, I question whether kwieto should be hiking outdoors at all. If you can't change a battery in the rain, stay in the house. As for run times specifically, my question is, "How many hours a night are you hiking?" Traveling great distances for hours at a time on tough terrain? It won't really matter much what headlight you are wearing....you will end up injured or worse sooner or later. I'm sorry but hiking at night like that is just plain stupid....especially for a guy that won't carry a backup and seems to have a great bit of difficulty with battery changes.

Kwieto, it's great that you like your lights but making claims about the ZL when you don't even own one? I don't get it? 

Sorry about this folks but this kwieto makes no sense to me and I just had to get it off my chest. I feel better now!


----------



## Woods Walker (Apr 3, 2009)

I have hiked at night before for a few reasons. Sometimes it took too long working though some switch backs. Other times I just wanted to hike after work in the winter. So far I am alive. But yea someone is far better off setting up camp a few hours before dark. This way there is less chance of falling. Better to get firewood and see the widow makers hanging overhead. When you are alone in the back country there is no one else to fall back on. Carry 3 ways to start a fire. Pack an extra light and batteries. Have a way to boil or filter water. Tell someone what your trip is and when you can be expected back.


----------



## kwieto (Apr 4, 2009)

Oh my, do I really need to explain such simple things?



Campdavid said:


> "Two is one and one is none"?


 
Yes, of course.
But the same as "never go to the mountains alone, until you really know why are you going there and are prepared for that".
If you are not alone, every participant carries his/her own light - it is obvious!
Depending of the trip type, you need the backup light or not - in most cases one light for two persons is enough in "emergency case", if you are in larger group, one without the light is not a big problem - until you want to make mainly night trips.

And for me two lights in the combination that one is the spot and second is flood make it in fact *one* light. They are not substitable, so loosing one of them can put you in troubles anyway... So you should get third one for a backup. 

OK, we can discuss what is less problematic - loosing throw light or loosing flood light, nevertheless I won't feel comoftable (in safety meaning) with only one type of them.
And the question is what type should be the third one? What If you will stay with two floods or two spots? ;")



Campdavid said:


> If it's too difficult for a guy to keep track of a second light, he might want to reconsider spending time in the great outdoors.


 
Hmmm, live taught me that the less and more simple things you have, the less problems you get if something will happen to you.
This is why, in example, I always carry the paper map and a compass, regardles that I have very nice outdoor GPS unit.
In some cases you just don't have time to think about every single thing inside your backpack.
You can use separate tools for each single operation in your garrage or during a weekend camp, but when you are going to more wild area, you should think about more compact, universal and efficient solution.
Of course, if you are forced to pack up in the middle of the night, You *can* remember about every item from 10 different ones, but remembering about only 3 or 5 is just simplier. 
And in such a situation, remembering about your second light is the last thing you want to pay attention. (I hope that I don't need to explain why you would "like" to pack up your things in the middle of the night and go away in heavy rush?)
I prefer to make my life more easy, not more difficult :")



Campdavid said:


> If you can't change a battery in the rain, stay in the house.


 
It is not the case that I can't.
I simply don't want to do such things, especially in the rain. I remember Murphy's laws telling that if something can go wrong - it definitely will.
So if I *have to* change batteries during the night rain, completely in the dark and groping for the spare battery - I will. 
I just prefer to avoid possibility of such case as much as I can.

Remember - make things simplier, not harder :")



Campdavid said:


> Traveling great distances for hours at a time on tough terrain? It won't really matter much what headlight you are wearing....you will end up injured or worse sooner or later.


 
Do you really think that someone would do that kind of walk just for fun?
OK, sometimes you want to climb up to the moutain top before the sunrise, start earlier to make longer distance during the day, etc.
But sometimes you just don't have any other option, i.e. imagine that you are on the ridge and you have only 1 hour walk to the shelter. Seems to be easy, but the weather is getting bad and you have no option to get to the shelter anymore. It is just to risky. And the opthion is to walk back to the walley which mean several hours walk in the night...
And don't ask me about changing batteries in that kind of situation!



Campdavid said:


> I'm sorry but hiking at night like that is just plain stupid....especially for a guy that won't carry a backup and seems to have a great bit of difficulty with battery changes.


 
I can say similar thing from opposite: I'm sorry, but for me stupid is to go to the mountains without any partner* and without consideration that the more often you *have to *change battery in the outdoors, the more possible is that you will go into the troubles.
And that the main rule for outdoor life is to avoid any possibilities to get into a trouble and consider any options which may happen - even if they look as almost impossible.

* - if you know that is 100% safe, you probably don't need any light for that kind of trip, and definitely don't need any backup light.



Campdavid said:


> Kwieto, it's great that you like your lights but making claims about the ZL when you don't even own one? I don't get it?


 
I don't need to try every device in the world by myself. If I see that some solution is not for me (in Zebra: working time, only flood option, etc.), why should I torture myself? Just to prove that some solution really is not for me?



Campdavid said:


> Sorry about this folks but this kwieto makes no sense to me and I just had to get it off my chest. I feel better now!


 
I really appreciate that you feel better :")
But we use our lights for different purposes and we have different priorities. So my choice will be different than yours. And please, don't tell that it is stupid, because your choice is the same stupid from my point of view...
I bought my first healamp about 15 years ago. And this was after several years experience in camping/backpacking.
If I am still alive, it proves that my choices were good (for me) :")


----------



## Egsise (Apr 6, 2009)

Changing battery in complete darkness to a 1xAA headlamp or flashlight is like blowing your nose, I never thought it could be challenge to someone.
Perhaps 3xAAA headlamp/flashlight is not so simple eh?

Or perhaps it would be easier to change the 3xAAA batteries if one had a backup?


----------



## kwieto (Apr 6, 2009)

Egsise said:


> Changing battery in complete darkness to a 1xAA headlamp or flashlight is like blowing your nose, I never thought it could be challenge to someone.



In normal conditions - not. 

As I said before - we have different needs and different solutions for them.
You probably never met situation when such simple thing like replacing one battery *can* be a problem; for me is easy to picture several examples just at the moment.

As I said, for me simplicity is one of the most important priorities in the "outdoor life". To change battery you have to make several steps, which you can easily avoid using the lamp which lasts longer.
During a "sunday camping" it is not a problem, but when you are walking in a blowing wind and rain (or just very low temperature) it *can* be.

I really don't get why I should bring potential problems to myself?




Egsise said:


> Perhaps 3xAAA headlamp/flashlight is not so simple eh?



Perhaps.
But you can change the batteries at home and then "forget" about them for several weeks.
The difference is that you don't need to change these batteries "in the middle of nowhere"

Remember: the worse conditions are, the heavier light do you need and the faster it drain batteries.
I can't assume runtime on the basis of the lowest level usage, because I can't promise that I won't need i.e maximum power for several hours. 
Headlamp should be prepared to match these criteria, "just in case".

Last time when I used Myo XP, I went for 2 weeks trip and when I tried these batteries during the comparison with X-zoom, they was still easily able to enlight a wall c.a. 30m away.
It means that after 2 weeks of normal usage (of course not only on the minimum level) I have still enough power in the first set. I can "forgot" about spare batteries, replacing them etc. Additionaly, in the waterproof copartment of a headlight they are 100% safe.

In Zebra, during these two weeks batteries should be replaced after almost every evening trip (i used maximum level) and I should think how to keep the spare and used ones in dry/safe place...
That's the difference.

And what if you lose your backpack containing spare batteries?

It is not the case that I can't keep spare batteries or change them if it's needed. 
It's all about the simplicity.


----------



## Woods Walker (Apr 6, 2009)

I have camped in every weather known to man. I mean everything from tornado warnings to -35 wind chill. I never had any issues with changing batteries. Lithiums for the cold and carry extra batteries in the stuff sack. 

Here they are.







It is not like I am going to reach into the pack than pull out the stuff sack and inexplicably toss the batteries. Even with the EOS I pack extra batteries. I do this even with my little daypack that attaches to the host pack. I never walk away from camp without a little daypack. Even for ranges under 1 mile.






Here is the daypack gear. Notice the Leatherman S1 with 2 extra lithium batteries. Guessing each one would run maybe 12 hours regulated in any weather as the S1 is a Fenix E01 with clicky and stainless bezel.


----------



## Egsise (Apr 6, 2009)

kwieto said:


> I really don't get why I should bring potential problems to myself?



This is going more and more off topic, but anyway...
Myo XP cannot be used with lithiums, isn't that a problem?
http://www.petzl.com/files/all/en/Products/Lamp/battery-compatibility-chart.pdf


----------



## Alan B (Apr 6, 2009)

Egsise said:


> This is going more and more off topic, but anyway...
> Myo XP cannot be used with lithiums, isn't that a problem?
> http://www.petzl.com/files/all/en/Products/Lamp/battery-compatibility-chart.pdf



Get the newer RXP to solve this problem.


----------



## HorizonSon (Apr 8, 2009)

_I received my Zebralight H501 a couple of weeks ago (I was one of the first N. Americans to purchase one  ). I have been using it for my nightly 3 mile walks since I received it in the mail..._

_My walk consists of gravel/dirt roads and some paved roads in very poor condition. The last 1/4 mile total is "trail", ending with a small open meadow (for parking at the true trailhead)._

_I played with all the setting of course  I was very very happily suprised to discover that for 90% of my walk, only the LOW setting was neccessary. Granted, I was walking on familiar grounds (I do it nightly, lol). On the dirt trails I liked using the MEDIUM setting to better spot mud puddles (It rains a LOT on the SW Oregon Coast!). The HIGH setting is bright enough to afford a very comfortable perimeter view of your location/campsite._


_Notes:_

_If I were walking on/in unfamilier grounds, I would most definitely be using the MEDIUM setting: 18 Lumens ~ 19hrs. Especially if we're are talking about hiking trails and other trails for that matter (I hike along deer trails sometimes)._

_The 80 degree is great! Wonderful! I think I would have prefered a 90 degree; if I was given the option. But the 80 degrees is enough to cover 90%+ of your "natural" plain-of-view._

_The button is fairly sensitive. Enough so, that if you're wearing anything but "thin form-fitting deerskin gloves", it may be a little fustrating for some. (This is one more reason to invest in some of those fingerless wool gloves that have the fold-over mitten ends on them.) However; the sensitive button is very nice in keeping your H501 from changing position on your head! The minimal-pressure-needed clicky makes it a true one-handed operation = BIG PLUS!!!_

_This headlamp is LITE!!! Oh my, oh my! This is my first from Zebralight; and WOW! You keep wondering where this lightsource is coming from, lol. I wore a benie/cap last night and didn't have a single problem with slipping, slidding; nor needed to readjust my hat or light at any time during my walk (another BIG PLUS)! It stashes away small, into a pocket of your choise (not one that is "big enough to cram it into)._

_This headlamp is LIGHT!!! Truely truely, I tell you. The only accompaniment that would fall into the classification of "need", would be a 150+ Lumen "flamethrower". There are 2-3 (according to reviews I've read and some limited experience) that are at the top of the heap in the 2xAA arena for "punch factor"._

_For several years now; I have been kicking stones about the over abundance of 3xAAA headlamp configurations. I know it's cheapest for the manufactures this way, but that's no excuse! I have always thought that a single AA with a good quality "regulator" would be hands-down 100% better in every way imaginable! The financial cost difference will pay for itself in no time at all (with regular use). The cost benefit in other areas pays for itself immediately! _


_By the way, kwieto, I don't know who you are (or who you play on TV, lol); but you need to STFU! I'm NOT sorry for saying it. I'm a peaceful, go easy, kind of guy; but DAMN! You are extreamly annoying and continually insult yourself every time I read one of your postings. <sigh>_


_I do not have any formal experience with the EOS, so I will not comment on that paticular model._

_CHEERS!  _


----------



## Woods Walker (Apr 8, 2009)

I agree that with the medium setting of even the older H50 someone can hike on known trails. Guessing dirt roads with the low is also a can do thing. Have a H501 on order so don't know but based on the H50 if working hardly used trails or no trail at all the high on the EOS can reach out very far for picking my way along or seeing a far way trail marker. The high on the H50 lights up a good patch of woods but lacks some throw. I will have get my H501 before any making any guess for my area. Thinking no matter what it will be a good headlamp.


----------



## Campdavid (Apr 10, 2009)

HorizonSon (and others) thank you so much for seeing what I do in this Kwieto character. He is like a kid or something arguing a point just for the sake of arguing. One thing he is good at is irritating people. As I stated before, I usually don't get into this stuff but this guy got to me. 

The advice to STFU was outstanding! Way to go! 

BTW.....love my Zebra!

Have a good one everybody.




HorizonSon said:


> _I received my Zebralight H501 a couple of weeks ago (I was one of the first N. Americans to purchase one  ). I have been using it for my nightly 3 mile walks since I received it in the mail..._
> 
> _My walk consists of gravel/dirt roads and some paved roads in very poor condition. The last 1/4 mile total is "trail", ending with a small open meadow (for parking at the true trailhead)._
> 
> ...


----------



## kwieto (Apr 10, 2009)

Campdavid said:


> HorizonSon (and others) thank you so much for seeing what I do in this Kwieto character. He is like a kid or something arguing a point just for the sake of arguing. One thing he is good at is irritating people.



Wouldn't be better if you add some substantial points instead of attacking my person?
Typicaly if someone has nothing to say, he attacks personally.
Sad, but this is not my problem.

That's all comment from me, I don't want to talk in that manner.

Let's concentrate on the essential subiect:

In fact I "did my homework" and played with Zebra a bit.
Some doubts gone, some new appeared.

What gone:

Doubts about the lowest setting. In the night, is enough to work in the tent or on the bivy place, even to go on the plain road. But not much more.
For me typical setting will be medium. Quite short running time...

What stayed:

The holder. It is too ample. It's nice that you can slightly rotate lamp inside, but leaving it as it is makes option to rotate lamp by itself. Typical solution for that, well-known on various forums is... to stick a tape around Zebra :")
But then it will be hard to rotate Zebra in its rubber holder. Good headlamp have it way better designed.
Lighting range. Flood can be an advantage or disadvantage, depending of the point of view. But when on the maximum level you get at most 10-12 lighting range (I am telling about lighting a dark terrain, not white wall at the front of the lamp), it is just too less to make this light usable for walking in more difficult terrain, not mentioning purposes like skitouring. Nice for a second lamp, not the main one.

What appeared:

Lack of locking the power-on button for the transport. This buttons are very sensitive and it's very easy to press them accidentialy, when light is in your pocket or backpack. This was the major problem when I used old Petzl Zoom headlamp, also missing that kind of lock. Almost all headlamps I know have some lock (usually the locking position of the head) to prevent against pressing the button by accident. 
Not Zebra.
OK, there is one model which has that kind of lock - H50. But then operating with the light has to be done two handed. Also not very clever.
Waterproofness. I red several reports that Zebra have problem with that. They claim IP68 standard, but it is buzzword, or I have bad luck - I tested one light by myself in the glass of water and water came inside... Not much (it appeared inside the tube next day after the tests), but still...
You can belive me, the period was less than 30 minutes and the glas was less than 1m deep :")
Durability/quality: I've read also reports about broken Zebras. Some of them broke after falling on the floor, some by themselves. Some of them lost part of funcionality, some just "died". 
The broken Zebras are mentioned at least twice in the first 10 threads from the top on this subforum - seems to be often issue(?)
I never heard about that kind of problems from any of my friends who are using a headlamps (not Zebras, of course).
The only problem which I had with a headlamp was a broken cable in the old Petzl Zoom model. But God, I bought this lamp in '94, so after some years of usage it could happen! Regardless that I don't like Petzl for its policy to the customers, none of Tikkas or Myos owned by me or my friends ever broke. 

Reassumption is as follow:

Pros:

Lightweight. Probably one of the lightest LED lights using Hi-Power LED
Small. Same comment as above. You can pack this lamp "just in case" and even don't notice that you are carrying it with you.
Flood light. Best light on the bivy place or inside the building. With the two features mentioned above it is ideal solution to be a substitute of a gas lantern:




when you don't want to carry on too much weight.
Ability to go through lighting levels in any time after powering on. 
Most of the headlamps I know allows you to change level stright after they are powered on, then after a few seconds pressing the button switch off the light.
Strobe (for specific models) mode realised with a different kind of operation with power button. This prevents to switch it on by accident. Similar as in i.e. Mammut lights and opposite to Petzl's.
Some kind of "warning" for drained batteries - If they are too weak, lamp swithes to the lower level.

Cons:

Flood light. With that kind of light you have to use maximum level to enlight area in a few meters around. More distant objects will fall in dark. Not good if you need to continue walk in the night, untill you walk on a good known, or easy terrain.
Lack of a power button lock for a transport (or two-handed operation in a H50 as a result of implementing that kind of lock)
Questionable warterproofness (according to more than "a few" reports complaining that and my own tests)
Questionable durability (according to many coments about broken Zebras)
Runtime on one battery - with Zebra you should always carry spare batteries (I don't mention "just in case" pack here, which should be counted separately). You should be prepared that you will change batteries not when you are in the best place for that (i.e. inside a tent or hut), but when you have to - i.e. in the middle of the night walk. Of course it is the cost of lighteness and littleness, mentioned as a Pros :"P
Ability to switch between the levels on a poor battery. In theory, full regulated light should allow you to choose any level till the baterry will be totally empty. It not work exactly like that. 
On a poor battery you are still able to use i.e. the lowest setting, but not the higher ones - even for a few seconds. From one hand it is an advantage (this is why I mentioned it in the "pros" section on the last position), but from the other hand if you are using lowest setting you will not notice that your battery is too poor to use higher levels.
Accessories. Nice to have, but they are difficult to change and some of them are not working exactly as they should. 
The holder just can't fight with a good headlamp suspension. When you want to put lamp out of the holder and attach pocket clip (or vice versa) it is not working like simple "click, click" but you have to use some "brute force" for that - every time you want to change the accessory (!) And how these nice, soft-rubber things will look after 3-5 years, when it become spongy?

Conclusion:
*Zebralights are a very good, maybe even perfect... "second" lamps*. Perfect to work as a "lanterns" on the bivy place, or enlight the working area when you fix something in the garden. Something which you keep in the pocket and use in a calm area/time.
*But definitely it is not a real "outdoor headlamp"*. The major problem is the beam pattern, perfect for the camping cooking but not on the trail. Maybe it is good for unpaved road, but this is the area where I hardly use any light but the moonlight 
Next issues are durability and reliability of the lamp. Then you have frequency of changing batteries, etc.

At the end, before next person will comment who I am or not (instead of explaining where and why I am wrong with my conclusions), please allow me to say that... *I really like this light*. 
I like it enough that in fact I ordered one, mainly to replace my lantern when it is just to heavy to carry with me

But still I think that if someone advise this lamp as an "outdoor headlamp" (I underline that: not "camping", but "outdoor"), most probably he never used a well designed "real" headlamp. 
Or never been in situation where he could take an advantage from that kind of lamp (and where Zebra's cons are becoming a big problems)


----------



## Woods Walker (Apr 11, 2009)

kwieto said:


> *But definitely it is not a real "outdoor headlamp" *


 
I use my H50 in the real outdoors all the time.


----------



## kwieto (Apr 11, 2009)

But you said before:



Woods Walker said:


> As stated if I could only pick one it would be the Rebel EOS.



That's the point. Zebralight as a *second* supporting light for bivy place is ok and probably better than a "typical" headlamp. Not for "outdoors" understood as the light which should help you find the track, protect you against get lost, etc.

Maybe we just have different definitions what "outdoors" is. Reading HorizonSon's posts I guess that for him "outdoors" means "walk through a poor or unpaved/dirt road". 
I've also seen some fotos posted by you (in this and other threads) with nice stove and nice tent (big as a hall), but... please, don't be offended, but for me it is more "camping" than "outdoor" stuff.
For which I call "outdoors" It is just too heavy and bulky - same as the gas lantern metioned in my previous post. I really hope that Zebra will perfectly replace this nice, but bulky item, but I don't think that a Zebra is a good solution when you i.e. have problems (broken arm, leg, etc.) on the way in the mountains where are several kilometers to the nearest village (which is the "outdoor" for me) 
As I said some posts before, night walk in difficult terrain can be just simple conseqence of unforseen problems, and IMO the "outdoor" light should be prepared to help in that kind of situations. This is why I claim that it should be as simple, as easy and as reliable as is possible.

The *second* lamp can be more "comfort" solution - just like Zebra.


----------



## Woods Walker (Apr 11, 2009)

kwieto said:


> But you said before:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
No offense taken however I have hiked hundreds of miles on the AT.









Also been so much farther away than several kilometers to a town. Been in the middle of no place with 5 feet of base and -20F. 









I know this is off topic but I really really and I mean really know the woods. Been in places that a self rescue without snow shoes is impossible. Also I must strongly suggest that you get this idea of crawling around in the dark kilometers to the nearest whatever with multiple broken limbs out of your mind. I had an Ex girl friend go down on a trail that was only 4 miles to the parking lot. It took EMS 8 hours to climb up the mountain and drag her down in the dark. Can't count the number of slips and falls from them. Also without EMS there was no way I could carry her or a self rescue for that matter. Sorry but that is just the way it is.


Secondly my heated shelters are not heavy. They range from 5-11 lbs including stove. Most of the time backpacked in. Heck this shelter is around 3 lbs and the stove 1 lb 10 oz. The stove is made out of Ti foil and much like the pipe rolls up. The shelter sil nylon.









If you want to get the EOS or any other headlamp that is just fine. But I have used the ZL in the real outdoors. I also pack a flashlight too. These are tools and no one tool is best at everything. I don’t use my EOS or ZL for night paddles back from small mouth fishing with the kayak. I use the APEX as I need more throw still. Just depends on your needs however it is all good in my view.


----------



## kwieto (Apr 11, 2009)

Woods Walker said:


> I know this is off topic but I really really and I mean really know the woods.



And I am not undermining that!
But "woods" are not "mountains" (my "operating place") - different area, different needs...



Woods Walker said:


> Also I must strongly suggest that you get this idea of crawling around in the dark kilometers to the nearest whatever with multiple broken limbs out of your mind.



Depends... If one can't walk, he can stay at the place and his partner is going for a rescue. If can, In many cases it is better to go than stay.
Sometimes it is just the matter of time - I heard about the situation (I was not participating that trip) where one of the team got meninigitis in the middle of Siberia (Russia). He survived only because they reached some military base in time, and there was helicopter which took him to the hospital.
And they had a big luck, because there is no "rescue service" in that area.




Woods Walker said:


> I had an Ex girl friend go down on a trail that was only 4 miles to the parking lot. It took EMS 8 hours to climb up the mountain and drag her down in the dark.



In fact, for mountains it is a short time :")
Taking into condideration that EMS (if I understand correctly) is not typical "mountain rescue" unit, it is really good result.
But I used to be in places where there is no or almost no service like that (i.e. Romania, Georgia, Ukraine). 
And in fact the question is not about if something is a good idea or not, but that if you will not go by yourself, nobody will come for you.

Different specifics, different optics.

BTW, nice shelter (I thought that it is heavier), but for "my" kind of terrain better solution is something like that:




Small and tough (that the wind won't blow it out and rain won't wash it off).
Again - different needs, different solutions.

And as I said - in fact I alredy ordered one Zebralight for me, so I am not "against" this lamp - simply for my "outdoor" purposes other kinds of headlamps are better.


----------



## Woods Walker (Apr 11, 2009)

Use the ZL around your camp. Works for me and I don't even feel the thing on my head. So UL that there is no reason why someone could not pack a headlamp or flashlight with more throw too.


----------

