# 64458 6D Mag build... WOW!



## FBsLights (Aug 17, 2011)

I finally got around to putting this thing together and it is IMPRESSIVE! :devil:

Details:
Mag 6D Host
Six 26650 LiFePO4 batteries with PVC adapter for diameter
Self Designed FET switch w/ Soft Start
Fivemega 6.35 Socket
Fivemega 2.5" Throw Master
OSRAM 64458 90watt bulb

The 6D does hold (6) 26650 batteries with the tail spring removed and replaced with braided ground strap wrapped around a foam core. The anodizing has to be removed from tailcap.

The FET switch uses two stages to act as a soft start. The frist stage occurs quickly to turn on a FET in sereis with a 1 ohm resistor. This warms up the bulb and limits the start-up current that occurs with a cold filament. About 0.5 seconds later, a second FET turns on, shorting accross the previous FET and 1 ohm resistor for full power. The second FET is ramped so that it takes over the "current duty" over about 100ms. This limits the heating that occurs during the transition to full ON. The switch board will get hot if you "strobe" the light too much. A few on-off-on cycles are fine but shouldn't be done several times in a row or the 1 ohm res will get HOT.

The MAG switch was modified so only the current to turn on the FETs is needed (plus some high value Rs to operate the soft start and turn off the FETs quickly).

The Fivemega socket works good. I like the fact that it acts as a shield for the Mag switch. The leads from the socket are short (< 1") so the smallish gauge isn't a problem.

The 2.5" head does a beautiful job of focusing the bulb. The hotspot is BIG and BRIGHT and the flood is insane. It lights up my entire back yard which is about 1 acre surrounded by large fir trees.

Now I'm trying to determine how to get more: 
- My batteries are probably sagging to <3.0 volts. My hobby charger will only go to 5A discharge and at that current, the batteries are dropping to ~3.1V. I need some A123 26650 to optimize current capability.
- My wiring is adequate with a short run of 18 gauge from battery + to FET board. It is only about 2.5" long and at 6mOhm / ft, less than 2 mOhm. The GND wire is even shorter.
- Anyone know what to expect for resistance from the stock MAG GND strip and screw? There seems like there would be two main sources of loss, the cotact from the metal strip to the nut, and the screw point to the mag body. If I remove the anodizing from the neck, I could use the Fivemega brass ring for ground. That is under a lot of pressure with a huge contact area.

Any advice to "optimize" this thing?

FB


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## KiwiMark (Aug 18, 2011)

FBsLights said:


> Any advice to "optimize" this thing?


 
No, but now I'm tempted to switch my 6D from a ROP high to another 64458. I love that bulb, using 2 others already. My 6D is currently running from some 4,000mAh NiCd cells that are getting a bit old and have quite a bit of self discharge to worry about.

I have some bulbs and an AW soft start driver, maybe I'll have to order me some A123 cells.


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## FBsLights (Aug 19, 2011)

I've been wondering how much more I can get out of this bulb so I wanted to check voltage right at the bulb.

I have some sockets like Fivemega uses on his 6.35 bi-pin adapter. I used one as an extension and removed a bit of insulation in the middle to get some probes on.

Vbulb: ~17.8 Volts and then slowly dropping.

Not bad considering the batts where partially discharged. This measurement will include all losses through FET, Mag body, GNDing screw, wiring, etc.
I think better batteries like A123s would get me about 1 Volt more.

Isn't it sad how a build like this makes all your other lights seem rather dim? I need to keep one stock Mag around to remind myself where this started.

FB


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## KiwiMark (Aug 19, 2011)

FBsLights said:


> I've been wondering how much more I can get out of this bulb so I wanted to check voltage right at the bulb.
> 
> I have some sockets like Fivemega uses on his 6.35 bi-pin adapter. I used one as an extension and removed a bit of insulation in the middle to get some probes on.
> 
> ...


 
My monster light is using the same bulb but driven a bit harder - regulated to 20.2V.
My 2nd brightest light is using that bulb too and powered by 5 x IMR 26500 cells for probably a similar voltage to your 6 x LiFePO4 26650 cells.
Unfortunately it isn't easy to do a comparison between the 2, they are both incredibly bright but my #1 light is using a different body & head (Fivemega Elephant II body with 8 x IMR 18650 and Fivemega 3" Throwmaster head) and it makes a head to head comparison pretty difficult.

I understand the desire to push the limit, but I've given up on going any further. My #1 light must be pushing out ~7000 Lumen and I consider that plenty for a 'show off' light. For a practical use light it is just not in the running - the run time is WAY to short. I keep on grabbing my Mag 2D with ROP Low bulb when I want to take out the garbage or other 'around the house' tasks - it is plenty bright enough, easy to handle and has a decent run-time (~2 hours). If anyone wants to compare lights to see whose is the brightest - I'll bring out my #1 and if anyone can beat that then I'll be amazed and impressed, but for day to day use I just don't use that light. 

If you can get ~ 19V from A123 cells then you will probably be at close enough to the limit from that bulb. I doubt that the difference in brightness between 19V & 20V would be very apparent and without a side by side comparison you would never pick which beam you were looking at. You would be up over 6000 Lumen and that is damn bright in anyone's book.

I don't have a stock Mag - I haven't had one of those for quite a while now. I really wouldn't do anything with one if I had it - so I'd only be tempted to mod it anyway.
But I would love to come across someone with one while camping so that I could compare whatever I had brought along with theirs. :devil:
I think that even my ROP Low would look drastically better than a stock 2D or 3D.


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## FBsLights (Aug 19, 2011)

Yep, the 64458 is just for fun. Not very useful. Battery life is too short, and runtime until too hot is even shorter.

It made my ROP High look dim so I had to go find a stock Mag for comparison. I had a 4D still in plastic so I got it out and loaded it will (5) NiCd "C" cells. (couldn't be completely stock!)

The (5) NiCd cells actually drive the lamp pretty good. It was nice and white. The throw was actually pretty good. The beam was ugly and there was no spill.

The ROP High outperforms the stock mag by an order of magnitude in every regard (except run time). That made me feel good again about my ROP High.
My ROP High has a perfect beam with a Fivemega Deep VLOP reflector. Great throw. Smooth transition to spill. Usable spill.

I also have a ROP Low but it doesn't see as much use. I need to modify it to be more of a flood light to differentiate it from the ROP High for when I don't need/want throw.

FB


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## KiwiMark (Aug 19, 2011)

My Mag 2D lights with 3854-H & 3854-L use the Fivemega 2" deep reflectors - I love both those lights. My Mag 2D light with 3853-H uses a Fivemega Bi-focal reflector and that is a pretty good light too. All 3 of these have nice beams and good output, I just avoid playing with either of my 64458 lights just before using one of my ROP lights.

I also have a 64430 in a Mag 3D that is regulated to 10V that looks pretty impressive - as long is it isn't compared to my 64458 lights that output 2 to 3 times as much Lumen.

If I just grab & use one of my modded Maglites then I'm pretty happy with them, if I start comparing them, the 64458 lights completely blow away the rest - I just love that bulb!


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## ebow86 (Aug 20, 2011)

The 6D mag is one hell of a host isn't it?


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## FBsLights (Aug 21, 2011)

I like the 6D now that it has this much output. :naughty: Even though the flashlight is huge, the output is still far beyond expectations.

I was really happy to find that 6 26650 batteries fit. It is a tight fit, but they fit.

I had a 5761 bulb in it w/ 6 "D" NiCd batteries. NiCds have a high output current capability and drove the bulb nicely, and the 2.5" reflector made a wonderful beam but a light this size needs HUGE output. :devil:

FB


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## Billy Ram (Aug 28, 2011)

I'm running my m*g 458 on 16ea. elite 1700s through AWs soft start. I must be getting about all you can get out of the 64458 because after charging I have to run the light on medium a while before going to high to keep from insta-flashing the bulb.
Billy


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## FBsLights (Oct 2, 2011)

Now I have 6 A123 26650 batts in the 6D driving the 64458 bulb.

I can't do a side by side because I only have one host, but now I measure 18.5V (and dropping) at the bulb so it must be a bit brighter! It would probably be hard to see that extra 500 lumens (over my previous batts at 17.8v) but its nice to know it is there.

I don't see myself going for more output that this thing does, at least for now!

FB


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## Battery Guy (Nov 20, 2011)

Hey Guys,

I was thinking of doing a similar 64458 6D build, but with five Molicel IMR26700 cells instead. The Molicel website and my own testing indicates that these cells hold up extremely well at 10 A, providing a nice plateau voltage between 3.7-3.9 V for ~80% of the 10 A discharge. 

The plan would be to use a AW incan driver/switch in this setup. 

Here's a couple questions:

1.) What would be a good reflector for this setup? I am considering either the Throwmaster-VLOP or FM3X-MOP. I would love to hear opinions on this.
2.) Anything else I should know?

Thanks everyone.

Cheers,
BG


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## Billy Ram (Nov 20, 2011)

Battery Guy said:


> Hey Guys,
> 
> I was thinking of doing a similar 64458 6D build, but with five Molicel IMR26700 cells instead. The Molicel website and my own testing indicates that these cells hold up extremely well at 10 A, providing a nice plateau voltage between 3.7-3.9 V for ~80% of the 10 A discharge.
> 
> ...


The FM3X works better with the 64458.
Billy


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## EMC2 (Nov 20, 2011)

Newbie not up to speed here yet. It seems to me that using conductive copper/aluminum tape and/or possibly some solder wick could help out making a grounding strap to reduce the voltage losses. It also seems that the fet switch could drop 0.7 volts or more the way a diode would. The tape I refer to is really expensive, specialized and extremely hard to find but you could possibly solder to it as well if you desire. I can also guantee that at some point you will end up slicing your finger open. 3M makes this tape.


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## Kestrel (Nov 20, 2011)

13 posts about 64458 builds and not a single flashlight pic or beamshot? What's wrong with you guys?


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## Freax (Nov 20, 2011)

Kestrel said:


> 13 posts about 64458 builds and not a single flashlight pic or beamshot? What's wrong with you guys?



They were, Blinded by the light! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcWVL4B-4pI

I'm serious, once you reach 12 volts its dark sunglasses time baby!


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## Freax (Nov 20, 2011)

EMC2 said:


> Newbie not up to speed here yet. It seems to me that using conductive copper/aluminum tape and/or possibly some solder wick could help out making a grounding strap to reduce the voltage losses. It also seems that the fet switch could drop 0.7 volts or more the way a diode would. The tape I refer to is really expensive, specialized and extremely hard to find but you could possibly solder to it as well if you desire. I can also guantee that at some point you will end up slicing your finger open. 3M makes this tape.



eBay also has this for cheap from Hong Kong $20 + Free Delivery, I've found it to be more than adequate for some tasks involving RFI Supression.


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## FBsLights (Nov 21, 2011)

Suddenly a lot of interest in this thread.

I'm using the Throwmaster VLOP head and it makes a great beam. There is so much output that it has great throw and flood. 
The filament is huge so the larger 3" head may have more throw.

In my build, I used (6) A123 LiFePO4 cells in a 6D. The fit is tight with only enough room for some flat copper braid between the "-" battery and the de-anodized tailcap. This makes a very low resistance connection.

On the "+" end I soldered 18 gauge wire to a round copper puck that was soldered directly to the original mag contact. The 18 gauge wire is connected directly to bulb holder.
The mag switch turns a large (low Rds) FET on/off. Actually it turns on two FETs. The first FET has a 1 ohm resistor in series. The second FET comes on about 500ms later to bypass the first FET and resistor. This makes a nice "softstart". The main FET has a Rds of 0.0095 ohms. This set-up has very low resistance for maximum output.

You definitely want to take steps to limit parasitic R in the host.

Never done beamshots. It might be difficult getting a camera to capture the output of this light compared to a "normal" light.

FB


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## mat_the_cat (Nov 21, 2011)

FBsLights said:


> The mag switch turns a large (low Rds) FET on/off. Actually it turns on two FETs. The first FET has a 1 ohm resistor in series. The second FET comes on about 500ms later to bypass the first FET and resistor. This makes a nice "softstart". The main FET has a Rds of 0.0095 ohms. This set-up has very low resistance for maximum output.


I've done something similar, but with only one FET switched by the Mag switch. This wasn't the exact one I've used, but has a similar Rds.
To get the soft start I've put a 10nF capacitor between drain and gate and gives a VERY slow start. Perhaps too slow as turn on time is a couple of seconds. It's only running a 64275 bulb @ 7.2V so not in the same league but I'm getting pretty good bulb life and a lovely beam profile.


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## ^^Nova^^ (Nov 21, 2011)

Yeah, the 64275 is a nice bulb. I am running one with a JimmyM driver and 2.5" throwmaster, beautiful beam with a perfect hotspot in the middle (throws really well too).

I have a 4D host waiting for me to build a 64458 with 5x26500 cells. I'll get to it one day soon.

Cheers,
Nova


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## Battery Guy (Nov 21, 2011)

Hey Everyone

Thanks for all of the really great responses.

Looks like I need to change my plans as I have not been able to acquire Molicel IMR26700 cells. These used to be found in Milwaukee V28 power tool packs. I ordered one last week, but the pack that I received was an "M28", not a "V28". Inside the "M28" packs are 14 Samsung INR 18650 cells. Great high power cells, but not exactly what I was looking for. I went to a store that cells Milwaukee tools and was told that the V28 has been replaced by the M28 packs, so it looks like the V28 packs are going to be hard to come by.

So, it looks like I might be looking for some of those A123 26650 cells. Where are you guys buying these?

Cheers,
BG


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## Battery Guy (Nov 21, 2011)

EMC2 said:


> Newbie not up to speed here yet. It seems to me that using conductive copper/aluminum tape and/or possibly some solder wick could help out making a grounding strap to reduce the voltage losses.



If you are referring to the tail spring, a common mod is to solder a heavy gauge wire across the spring to reduce the voltage drop. However, it is hard to beat the copper braid in the tail cap, but that is only really effective if your cell stack is long enough to eliminate the need for a spring.


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## FBsLights (Nov 22, 2011)

The cap across the drain to gate of the FET is a good way to do (negative feedback) it but with a bulb like the 64458, you have to be careful because the power dissipation in the FET during the soft-start turn-on can be HUGE! You wouldn't want >1sec soft-start.

I got the A123 cells from ebay from a guy selling pre-made packs of 3 cells for $10. The cells appear to be new and 1st quality. Great buy! Unfortunately, he doesn't seem to be selling them anymore.

If you don't have a host, how about (5) IMR 26500 in a 4D, or (5) 26650 IMRs (batteryspace.com) in a 5D?

FB


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## Battery Guy (Nov 22, 2011)

FBsLights said:


> If you don't have a host, how about (5) IMR 26500 in a 4D, or (5) 26650 IMRs (batteryspace.com) in a 5D?



I recently tested the AW IMR26500 cells and was unhappy with their performance at 10A due to the large spread in voltage, approximately 3.25-3.75 V for 80% of the discharge. This is kind of rotten if you compare this to the Molicel 26700 cells which have a window of 3.7-3.9 V for 80% of the discharge at 10 A.

The 26650 IMR cells at batteryspace.com are not high power. You can tell from the capacity, which is 4 Ah compared to 3 Ah for the Molicel 26700s. I have not tested them but would expect that they would perform poorly with a 10 A draw.

Cheers,
BG


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## mat_the_cat (Nov 22, 2011)

FBsLights said:


> The cap across the drain to gate of the FET is a good way to do (negative feedback) it but with a bulb like the 64458, you have to be careful because the power dissipation in the FET during the soft-start turn-on can be HUGE! You wouldn't want >1sec soft-start.


That's a good point, and one I had not thought of

I should probably play around with cap values and reduce the turn on time - maybe next time I mod it.


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## FBsLights (Nov 22, 2011)

Battery Guy,

I've read many of your battery tests/reviews and would not question your battery expertise!

I have tested the batteryspace 3.3AH LiFePO4 cells and they do have more voltage sag than the A123 cells, but still performed OK. For best performance, it will be hard to beat the A123 26650 cells.
The IMR cells I was referring to don't seem to be available at batteryspace any longer. The 26650 cell they list now has a discharge rate of only 4.0 Amps. Definitely not what you want.

It can be hard to find a good, high discharge battery for a reasonable cost.

FB


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## Battery Guy (Nov 22, 2011)

FBsLights said:


> Battery Guy,
> 
> I've read many of your battery tests/reviews and would not question your battery expertise!
> 
> ...



Hi FB

Thanks for the info. 

In my search for Molicel IMR26700 cells I learned that Molicel no longer makes these. They replaced the IMR26700 with IBR26700. The original Molicel IMR26700 was pure manganese spinel, which produced a beautifully flat discharge at high voltage. The new IBR cell has a different cathode formulation which gives the cell a sloping discharge curve not unlike the AW IMR cells. The trade-off is that the new IBR cells have substantially better cycle life and slightly lower internal resistance.

But the bad news for us is that the old Molicel IMR26700s that had that great flat discharge curve are no longer made and it does not appear that anyone makes anything equivalent.

I will definitely take a look at the batteryspace 3.3 Ah LFP cells and see how well they hold up at 10 A. I will also keep searching for a good source of the A123 26650 cells.

Cheers,
BG


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## Mr Happy (Nov 22, 2011)

Battery Guy said:


> I will definitely take a look at the batteryspace 3.3 Ah LFP cells and see how well they hold up at 10 A. I will also keep searching for a good source of the A123 26650 cells.


BG,

Have you ever run any discharge tests on the K2 Energy LFP cells, such as the LFP26650P? Since I have some of these and also some of the LFP26650EV cells, I was wondering if it's worth me trying to run some tests. But I don't want to duplicate any work that has already been done.

(I have two LFP26650P cells driving a 3854-H very nicely. It is running pretty much at spec and not over driven, so although it is not super-bright it also should have a good life and a low risk of instaflashing.)


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## FBsLights (Nov 22, 2011)

BG,

I live near Portland and have some of the cells that are discussed here. Maybe we are close enough to meet and you could borrow cells for testing.

PM sent.

FB


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## Battery Guy (Nov 22, 2011)

Mr Happy said:


> BG,
> 
> Have you ever run any discharge tests on the K2 Energy LFP cells, such as the LFP26650P? Since I have some of these and also some of the LFP26650EV cells, I was wondering if it's worth me trying to run some tests. But I don't want to duplicate any work that has already been done.



Definitely worth it. I have not purchased any of the K2 Energy LFP cells yet and I am unlikely to have a chance to test these anytime soon. I would love to see some discharge curves for these, especially at 6 A and 10 A, as these are the discharge currents that I am usually interested in for hotwire mods (6 A is a pretty close match for the CL-1909 bulb and 10 A is similar to many of the higher voltage Osram bulbs).



Mr Happy said:


> (I have two LFP26650P cells driving a 3854-H very nicely. It is running pretty much at spec and not over driven, so although it is not super-bright it also should have a good life and a low risk of instaflashing.)



Great to hear that you did that mod. I know you were talking about it in another thread. But I thought that you were going to push the limits and try the 3853-H bulb with three LFP cells. Did you ever give that a try? I was curious to know if that combination would instaflash.

Cheers,
BG


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## NightKids (Nov 22, 2011)

Let's see some long range beamshots! Like across a football field or something...


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## Justin Case (Nov 22, 2011)

If you can wait, you might consider using the JM-PHD-D1 incan regulator to run your 64458. It appears that JimmyM is gearing up for another run of 100 drivers. Presumably with the driver, the AW IMR26500 voltage spread won't matter as much.


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## Mr Happy (Nov 22, 2011)

Battery Guy said:


> Definitely worth it. I have not purchased any of the K2 Energy LFP cells yet and I am unlikely to have a chance to test these anytime soon. I would love to see some discharge curves for these, especially at 6 A and 10 A, as these are the discharge currents that I am usually interested in for hotwire mods (6 A is a pretty close match for the CL-1909 bulb and 10 A is similar to many of the higher voltage Osram bulbs).


There are some discharge curves on the data sheet, which probably you have seen: http://www.battlepack.com/LFP26650P.pdf

The 5 A curve looks like a stroll in the park, while 20 A and higher apparently cause the voltage to sag a bit at the beginning and then rise later on, presumably as the cell warms up. The 10 A curve is missing, but by interpolation it would probably remain above 3 V for most of the discharge.

I can only do constant resistance discharges, but I might see if I can do one at some point to verify the manufacturer data.



> Great to hear that you did that mod. I know you were talking about it in another thread. But I thought that you were going to push the limits and try the 3853-H bulb with three LFP cells. Did you ever give that a try? I was curious to know if that combination would instaflash.


Well, I'm a conservative soul at heart and when I looked at the charts I got the feeling that a 3853-H on three cells would be pushing it just a bit too close to the limits. I was looking for something on safer ground as a first experiment. I do have a 3D Mag on hand, so I will try three cells soon. I'm afraid I'm still inclined to be conservative and try an 1185 at first though. What I'd really like to do is run the 3853-H with a regulated driver so I can soft start it and fine tune the voltage below the flash point. But that will have to wait until I can get my hands on an incan regulator.


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## Mr Happy (Nov 22, 2011)

Justin Case said:


> If you can wait, you might consider using the JM-PHD-D1 incan regulator to run your 64458. It appears that JimmyM is gearing up for another run of 100 drivers.


That's good to know. I'm definitely in line for one of those.


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## EMC2 (Dec 1, 2011)

The EV cells pulse @11C and a 3C continuous rate
The P cells pulse @ 50C and a 20C continuous rate.
The resistance could be in your batteries

Why stop @ 90W?
Is there a preferred FET device or circuit?


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## FBsLights (Dec 2, 2011)

The A123 cells are very low resistance.

The 64458 is 90W at 12V. At these voltages, it is >150W. That is enough power to get things HOT fast enough.

You need a FET with a nice low Rds ON and high power handling. The part I used is rated to 75 Amps with an Rds of 0.009 ohms.
If you are not electrically inclined, I recommed buying a driver, like the JimmyM mentioned above. 10+ amps of these bulbs can get tricky!

FB


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## Eddie-M (Dec 4, 2011)

I'm running an Osram 64458 in a 6d mag off of 21AA duraloops in a 21>6d odd mods battery adapter with an AW 3 was soft start switch and an FM 3x head. I have to let the batteries rest for over an hour off the charger or I will (and have) blown bulbs. I then ramp it up from low to medium for a few seconds then high. It is bright as hell, but pretty much a battery toaster at this point for the duraloops. I later plan to run some AW IMR batteries once I have the funds, but I built this a few months ago while I was still afraid of Lithium battery chemistries. I had orginally wanted Titanium AA's or simililar but battery guys testing of the newest batch proved less than stellar if I remember correctly, and just decided on ruining my older used duraloops in the mean time. I love this bulb and the axial filament and it's sure is bright as hell  !


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## Battery Guy (Dec 4, 2011)

Eddie-M said:


> I'm running an Osram 64458 in a 6d mag off of 21AA duraloops in a 21>6d odd mods battery adapter with an AW 3 was soft start switch and an FM 3x head. I have to let the batteries rest for over an hour off the charger or I will (and have) blown bulbs. I then ramp it up from low to medium for a few seconds then high. It is bright as hell, but pretty much a battery toaster at this point for the duraloops. I later plan to run some AW IMR batteries once I have the funds, but I built this a few months ago while I was still afraid of Lithium battery chemistries. I had orginally wanted Titanium AA's or simililar but battery guys testing of the newest batch proved less than stellar if I remember correctly, and just decided on ruining my older used duraloops in the mean time. I love this bulb and the axial filament and it's sure is bright as hell  !



The new Elite 2000 AA cells from cheapbatterypacks.com are quite good for high current applications. I have posted test results here. They are certainly going to hold up better than the Duraloops under a 12 A load. If you are blowing bulbs with the Duraloops hot off the charger, then you might actually need to put a dummy cell in the holder if you switch to the Elite 2000s.


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