# M64 - brightest 2D/NiMH/30min(ish) run? (inc vs. Mag85)



## defblade (Mar 2, 2007)

*Inspiration and build:*
Lots of parts came together for this magmod. I am trying to get as much light as possible out of a 2D mag (which slips into my coat's pocket nicely) while aiming for around half-an-hour's runtime, which is usually enough for me. Also want to stick with NiMH for now.

I got a FM tri-bored 2D mag (nice




) some time ago and the other parts have been coming in slowly.

I originally intended to replicate AWR's M85 (regulated Mag85) so I built a 9xGP2000 4/5A battery pack by end-to end soldering. Andrew warned there was little depth available for springs etc so I aimed to hardwire the pack to the mag switch.

Before getting the hotdriver, I constructed an un-regulated Mag85 for practise and made sure to rest the pack well before switching on. I did the major resistance fixes (tail spring, bulb holder spring and ground path) and used a FM bi-pin adaptor in the mag socket.

That was one nice, bright light, tho I did find the beam was artifacty on flood with a smooth reflector, and my medium stipple _really_ killed the throw.

Then the excitement about the 1164 @ 9.6v started and so I decided to try them out.

The bulbs and hotdriver arrived at about the same time, so on with the build.


First the already modified switch needed a groove to allow the -ve hard wire to run through:







And then both wires were soldered onto the appropriate contacts. The +ve I've since moved down a couple of turns on the spring and made more groves in the underside of the switch to allow the wire to sit flush - that battery pack really is _tight_!







I started with mini Tamiya connectors, but while they fitted into the tailcap on their own, with wires attached, no way. So I tried bullet connectors from CBP. Here are the switch and a charging adaptor I made up:






And the battery pack (the tape will be tided when I'm finished!):








But these connectors were still so tight a fit that the tailcap was biting into the wire insulation





Some more looking around found some 9v snap connectors. They came with very thin wire, so I tried them at full length running the 1185 for 10 minutes, they didn't get more than slightly warm, so I cut them off as short as practical and they seem to work. Again, the tape will be tided and replaced with heat shrink when I'm done (going to run new wire everywhere too):









AWR was slightly worried that running the 9 cells into 9.6v would be more diference than the hotdriver would be happy with, but he then said (direct quote) "i'll replace the FET if it gets damaged in the name of science, so don't worry about trying." With a great offer like that, nothing to lose





And I was taken with the idea of being able to regulate the bulb through to what should be 1900mah or more of 2000mah quoted (they'll hold 1.1v to about 1900 at 15amps and I'm pulling just over 4amps). Which should give 25 minutes or so of running.

Amazingly, it all worked fine first time!






*Review, comments and beamshots:*
This torch is noticably brighter than the Mag85



So success there from the start





My Scout Troop are _very_ impressed with the speed it sets paper on fire





The beam pattern, particularly with the smooth reflector, has what I instantly dubbed an "X-wing" artifact pattern (quick and dirty beamshot):




: 4 "wing" shadows and a bright hotspot either side of the central shadow looking a bit like the engines (am I the only sad geek around?



).




Anyway, this bulb throws much more light onto the trees down the field (150metres give or take) behind our house than the Mag85. Using the same smooth reflector each time, my ROP kinda reached them (you were aware of the hotspot without it really helping), the Mag 85 lit them a bit (enough to be useful), one tree at a time, the M64 lights them 3 at a time to the same sort of level as the Mag85. But the artifacts are really noticable. So it won't focus as tightly/cleanly but there's a lot more light down range.

The medium stipple (adjusted to the tightest spot it will) means that the Mag85 will hardly touch those trees (although the way to them is well lit!) but the M64 really starts to look good as the stipple cleans up the beam and doesn't seem to affect the throw much. So you end up with a bunch of nice light over 2 or 3 trees.

Turning the MS to flood, the M64 really fills my whole back garden - looks like day time to my eyes. Reaches a good half way across the field too. The Mag85 was already OK like this but the MS sacrificed too much throw to want to use it. 






I've got a simple-ish digital camera, which does have manual control so I know the settings are similar for all these photos. However, they are very underexposed compared to what my eyes see and it's been too cold to want to mess around with the settings too much, so the pics below aren't as much use as they could be (all suggestions greatfully received). They were taken at iso100 f2-6 speed1-15. The trees used are in our back garden, not the ones down the field. I also tried the camera on these, and its automatic mode, across the field but it couldn't pick anything up. 

The spot pictures are clipped but otherwise untampered with, the M64 is slightly brighter overall but not a great difference at this range. Despite the pictures looking black otherwise, the spill beam on each is doing a reasonable job of lighting everything else (much better than the spot of a standard 2D mag!).

The flood pictures I had to work on the contrast with. I used the automatic settings on PaintShopPro, I'm not sure if the same settings have different actions on different pictures. When I put them all together, I was suprised to see that the sky was coming brighter as well on the M64 pics, especially the med stipple shot. I looked for a while, and wondered about the image program as above, but decided that despite the washed out colours (bright and clear to my eyes in real life) and possible enhancment problems, the pictures were actually a pretty good represenation of the differences between the torches. So maybe it's the limitations of the camera. Anyhow, the M64 on med stipple flood really _is_ that much better than the Mag85. Lights the trees, the hedge, the climbing frame, everything



Also notice artifacts on the M64 smooth shot



















*Summary:*

I love throw so I'm waiting to get FM's 3" head on this, but until then I'd say, with the medium stipple reflector, it's got the Mag85 either drawn or beaten on every count. The smooth gives too poor a beam quality to want to use.

Anyone got a light stipple I could try



?

Or any ideas on getting any _more_ light out a 2D?


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## andrewwynn (Mar 2, 2007)

the beamshot looks a bit like you might not be able to get the lamp into focus.. some of the lamps we have to make the ceramic socket shorter removing the stand offs and using nuts for spacers. unless you are sure you are getting past the focus.. you should try that modification Those screws are M3 metric. it is not difficult to retrofit the driver to shorten the length just don't harass the wires too bad as they are being bent into a bow to fit down lower. 

nice to see this lamp finally come to fruition i've been talking with folks about this exact lamp since about august or september. 

-awr


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## Northern Lights (Mar 3, 2007)

WOW, Defblade, congratulations! That is great to see, I could only imagine before but I new that would be a great combination.
I have the exact same parts for a 2D M64 sitting on my desk and am hard wiring the GP2000 too to the switch. Hotdriver etc. but my problem is the hang up with my machinist and I do not have my bored tube back. AWR was a great help with the conception and tech specs! I usually frost my bulbs, the lower 2/3 and use smooth reflectors, that could help your beam pattern too. Maybe next week I will get my tri-bore tube back! I have been flip flopping on whether to keep it, do I really need another light? Or sell it in the forum, but your post is got me considering to keep it. I originally was building it for the same reason you said, convenience and practical Lumens!


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## defblade (Mar 3, 2007)

andrewwynn said:


> some of the lamps we have to make the ceramic socket shorter removing the stand offs and using nuts for spacers.


 
Was wondering if this was the case..... I've got a standard KIU kicking around now so I will pull them both out sometime and compare heights.... might be why I've been having trouble with one of the other (less standard/more interesting) reflectors blowing bulbs, too.


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## Icebreak (Mar 3, 2007)

defblade -

Thanks for posting this.

Looking at the white wall shot on flood it appears that your lamp is laterally focused quite well. At first I thought your torch might be having some axial focus problems and I'm still not sure. However, in the color shots I can't tell if the Mag85 SMO spot is axially focused but the M64 SMO spot does appear to be axially focused correctly.

If these two set ups were compared like you did in the black and white shots more would be revealed.

Either way the WA01164 appears to be much more powerful than the WA01185.

Now I'm wondering if, in a standard 3D Mag85 set up, that the new IB 2000 AA NiMhs could be used with a WA01164 and get similar performance to that of your torch. Larger package for sure but the expense for the upgrade might be worth it. That much light for 30 minutes is fine for many purposes.

On an aside...


defblade said:


> might be why I've been having trouble with one of the other (less standard/more interesting) reflectors blowing bulbs, too.


If that's the 2" deep FiveMega be careful that the lamp, at all focus points, doesn't touch the reflector. Long shot guess but I thought I'd mention it.

Anyway, your M64 is one of the more interesting incans I've seen in a while. Thanks again for posting about it. Exciting stuff.

- Jeff


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## defblade (Mar 3, 2007)

Icebreak said:


> If that's the 2" deep FiveMega be careful that the lamp, at all focus points, doesn't touch the reflector. Long shot guess but I thought I'd mention it.


 
Not such a long shot  I've lost 3 bulbs already but I didn't mention this as I'm sure it's something to do with my set up and not FM's great work. 

Only happens as or just after I move the bezel down from spot to flood and I'm fairly sure it's hitting something down there. The stack height of the hotdriver + KIU is quite tall so that's the first thing I'll be working on, and maybe some packing to make sure the reflector centres on the KIU. I'm not sure it if's possible that the sheer heat of the lamp is being concentrated enough as the lamp moves up into the reflector to blow it? Only seems to happen while the torch is pointing down.... Anyhow, I've put it to one side for now (it does clean all the smooth artifacts up nicely; gives a bright, round spot) and waiting for the 3"ers to come 


I've got a stack of those new 2000 AAs coming for a 3D mag85; and enough CBP1650s for two 8 cell packs to run a single unbored, unregulated mag64, so I can carry a back up pack. I'm waiting to see if the 2000s will fit 4 wide in an unbored mag.......


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## Icebreak (Mar 3, 2007)

Cool. I'll be watching.

Thanks again for the time, expense and effort needed for your experiments and reporting.


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## missionaryman (Mar 4, 2007)

thanks mate, great review


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## Hallis (Mar 4, 2007)

Nice writeup there. I'm tempted to build another incan now  This time with the 1164 and maybe a hotdriver. Do you think Mini deans connectors would work? I've thought about upgrading my Mag85 with the IB2000's. It's currently running CBP1650's which i love. The cells only have about half a cycle through them so far, lol. Took the light outside for the first time last night. Usually I just blast it at the wall for my own enjoyment haha. The Hotdriver is definately a good idea for the soft startup. Do you think that the wire issue might be resolvable by using a straight 9(4/5 aa)/ 2d battery back with the standard pads on either end and then just modifying the tailspring almost all the way down or build yourself some kind of custom pirch for the tailcap? I use 12aa/3d stick packs in my polaris and they work great. Just charge them with magnet leads and all is right with the world. I'll have to stop by the home depot today and see if they have any pewter or silver 2d's on hand. 

Shane


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## defblade (Mar 4, 2007)

Don't see why cutting the spring down wouldn't work (That's what AWR did on his M85 IIRC). I can't find _actual_ size of the mini Dean's - I did look at them - again, looks like just the connectors would fit in the tailcap space OK, but the wires coming out maybe troublesome. A good thing with wiring a pack in is that you remove the resistance loses in the springs (tho the clip connector wires I'm using maybe putting a similar amount back in?!). 

If you're using 8 cells with the 1164 and no regulator, there may be space for narrow connectors (eg staggered bullets) in the 9th cell's slot? Or more space below the battery pack if you're using thinner AAs in a 4+4 pattern pack?


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## Hallis (Mar 4, 2007)

I know a mag can be bored to accept 4aa stacks. Making the pack might be difficult with 9 cells but who knows. I think i might try this but i'll need somebody else to pre-build my pack as i dont have the end-to-end soldering skills. And then i'll have to find somebody to bore the mag. I'll have to see if Mac, Modamag, or somebody else can get that done for me. 

Shane


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## andrewwynn (Mar 4, 2007)

i recommend just making a drop-in pack and use contacts vs hard-wire with connectors.. it was not all that difficult to make the pack... you can actually get a pack pre-welded from cbp in the tri config and just make some plates for each end.. use the likes of pcb or plastic for the base and glue on a copper disc on each side for pos and neg, soldering to the end tab of each.. some shrink wrap to hold it all together and you have a drop-in pack.. 

you can look here to see how i made the prototype packs for the M85 and M625.. I expect in about a month i can release the smartpak which has the boards already made.. if i wasn't so busy trying to get unburied i could offer to sell just the boards if people were interested in making their own rods and possibly forgoing the fancy stuff like the charge jack and fuse. 

oh.. if you need 4mm extra space inside a maglight.. cut off the ribbing on the bottom of the switch!

-awr


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## defblade (Mar 13, 2007)

defblade said:


> I'm waiting to see if the IB 2000s will fit 4 wide in an unbored D mag.......


 
No, they don't  Not for me anyway, including making sure the sleeve joins are all towards the middle.


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 21, 2007)

Nice job. What was the regulation set at?

I'm wondering how this compares to the Mag66 I made with a 12.68V I got from Mad Maxabeam (which was intended for a 100W Osram 62138 USL type setup) using 4x14670 Li-Ion's in a 1.5D FM Mag. It re-rates on WA's site to almost 965 BL & about 7 hrs, and is brighter than the 12.55V Hot Driver I got from AWR for another Mag66 in 1D size using 4x14500.


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## defblade (Apr 21, 2007)

Set to 9.6v. I dare say it could be squeezed higher but I'll wait for the next group buy on 1164s before I start really pushing them as I've only got 2 left!


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 21, 2007)

Your post got me interested in this one light I got a while back using the 1164 & 8xAA's. When I measure the voltage with the light turned on, and freshly charged Sanyo's it is 9.7-9.9V, but it is not even close to my Mag66 in brightness. Using the re-rating formulas at WA's website, the 1164 in this setup should be giving 1500 BL, and the 1166 about 970 BL....but the '66 is clearly brighter.

I really have no idea why the 1164 is not way brighter.


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## fivemega (Apr 21, 2007)

LuxLuthor,
Did you measure voltage at battery pack or bulb pins?


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 22, 2007)

fivemega said:


> LuxLuthor,
> Did you measure voltage at battery pack or bulb pins?


 Battery pack plug in jack wires. I see the big difference now with clipping a small aligator clamp on the bipin wires. Thanks for that.


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## missionaryman (Apr 27, 2007)

you can make this set up about 40% brighter by replacing the WA01164 with a Westinghouse 04424 but you'll get about 60: of the run time.


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## LED BriCK (May 4, 2007)

I have a Mag85 with AWR's HD run off of 9 CBP1650's. If I rerate the 1164 to this V, I get 2359 bulb lumens at 4.53A of current and a bulb life of 2.16 hours (please feel free to check my math if this seems off, I'm a rerating n00b). I'm not too concerned about the bulb life (live fast, die young, right?), but does anyone think there's something else I might burn out or otherwise destroy with this setup?


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## defblade (May 5, 2007)

Springs can get really hot and meltly so worth doing the solderwick resistance fix across any involved, and 2 and a bit hours is asking for instaflash when you turn the torch on (why I'm waiting for more bulbs before experimenting  ) as the bulb gets a shock as the power hits it - they heat up _fast_ as opposed to the relatively gradual dimming when they are switched off.


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## cnjl3 (May 5, 2007)

Where are you getting 'more' WA1164's?








defblade said:


> (why I'm waiting for more bulbs before experimenting  )


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## LED BriCK (May 5, 2007)

Would I _really_ try to instaflash a brand spanken new bulb? You bet your sweet patootie I would, if it's in the name of science. (Apologies to Craig) Actually, I think I might be alright in this regard- I got the HD complete with a fixed switch and Kiu socket, and it has soft start. Anyway, I wonder how many lumens an instaflash would generate?


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## defblade (May 5, 2007)

@cnjl3: mostly waiting for litho123 to do another "unpopular" GB, at which point I'll order maybe 10-20 bulbs!

@LED BriCK: Let us know how you get on (I'm cheering for you!)


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## LED BriCK (May 6, 2007)

defblade- Thanks! I'm just waiting for that same "unpopular" GB. Lately it seems that 1164 might qualify for "popular"!


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## defblade (May 10, 2007)

Heads up for LED BriCK (and anyone else who's interested) litho123's started another "unpopular" buy here


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## LED BriCK (May 10, 2007)

Found it, thanks! I plan on getting 2-3 1164s and a couple 1185s in case it doesn't work out. poof


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## LED BriCK (Jun 16, 2007)

Update on my Mag64-9 experiment: failed, I'm afraid. 10.8V just seems to be too much for the 1164. I went through 3 bulbs- the first was my fault- it lit up fine and seemed brighter than the 1185, though it was daytime and I only have the one modded 3D, so I couldn't do a side-by-side comparison. Unfortunately, my charge was low and the HD regulator shut off before I could get any good beamshots. I made the stupid mistake of forgetting to click off the switch on my 3D, so when I dropped the freshly-charged pack in, the bulb didn't get the benefit of soft start and died immediately. The second bulb stayed lit a few seconds until I started to fiddle with the focus, so I guess the hot filament was too close to it's melting point to handle the jostling. The third just died almost right away. I have one more, but I'm holding on to that one. Maybe some day I'll get around to figuring out how to adjust the V on my HD, but for now my M85 works fine, so I don't want to mess with it. Actually, it's better than before, I got one of litho123's HOP reflectors along with the new bulbs :thumbsup:.


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## LuxLuthor (Jun 16, 2007)

I agree with you. The 1166 is my favorite WA bulb. Not as impressive as FM's custom 43W Carley, but it outperforms the 1185, and much whiter color. AWR turned me onto to it. Needs a Hotdriver with 4s or 2p4s Li-Ions though.


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## cnjl3 (Jun 23, 2007)

Since it sounds like you have almost every possible combination have you tried a head to head comparison of the 1164 & 1166?

What voltage did AWR set your 1166 HD to?

I am using 3 D size Li-ions with my HD set to 9.6v (with a 5watt 150Ω tail cap resistor) per AWRs recommendation and I really like the beam - I currently am using FM 3" head and it i just love the total package

I tried increasing the voltage to 9.9v and I 'instaflashed' one 1164
So i probably with keep the voltage at 9.6volts.

Its a good thing that Litho123s 2nd "unpopular bulbs" groupbuy didnt take too long and I now have a stash of extra 1164s



LuxLuthor said:


> I agree with you. The 1166 is my favorite WA bulb. Not as impressive as FM's custom 43W Carley, but it outperforms the 1185, and much whiter color. AWR turned me onto to it. Needs a Hotdriver with 4s or 2p4s Li-Ions though.


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## LuxLuthor (Jun 23, 2007)

I push the 1166 up to 12.68 - 12.7V and it has lasted way longer than AWR's Hotrater spreadsheet says it should. I have at least 18-20 hours on this one....still going strong. Definitely brighter, whiter, cleaner beam pattern than the best I can get out of the 1164.

While the 1164 setup at lower voltage is nothing to sneeze at, I have pushed it also to 9,6V, and there is no way it is putting out the 1500BL that the WA rerater claims.


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## frogs3 (Jun 24, 2007)

Lux,

Any chance of an 1166 surviving 9AA's (Eneloops) without regulation? Stock switch, spring resistance wire in place, bipins in FM socket.

Currently runs 1185 -- a bit yellow with good runtimes on first two outings.

FM 2.5 inch Throwmaster head.

Your suggestions welcome,

-HAK


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## fivemega (Jun 24, 2007)

frogs3 said:


> Lux,
> 
> Any chance of an 1166 surviving 9AA's (Eneloops) without regulation?
> 
> -HAK



*Some people run an WA1166 with 10 rested NiMHs.*


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## LuxLuthor (Jun 24, 2007)

Well, the 1185 will flash about 1.5V lower than the 1166....so what FM says that the 1166 can take a 10th cell is right.....BUT it all depends on how much resistance you have. 

You can't push the 1185 voltage as high as 1166, but if you are at the edge of flashing the 1185, it would be brighter than dropping an 1166 into that same exact setup....since you need more voltage for the 1166 to give optimal output.


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## defblade (Jul 31, 2007)

Don't think I've mentioned it above, but FM's throwmaster head _really_ suits this bulb. I can't stand to look at the hotspot from less than about 5 metres, but you can adjust it to a flood effect (although the total spill/beam is about half the size of a regular head at any given distance - it noticably only lights half the fence where a standard Med stipple lights the lot). Oh, throw's amazing too


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