# Paul Kim (PK) is NO longer with Surefire (official news/info)



## tobrien (Jan 12, 2013)

originally from their official Facebook page:







> _SureFire, LLC_
> *Paul Kim Departs SureFire After 19 years*
> After 19 years of service with SureFire and countless contributions, Paul Kim has decided to leave SureFire to pursue other opportunities. Paul Kim has been the Vice President of Engineering since the earliest days of the company. He holds over 40 patents dating back to the 1980s, and many of his innovations are integrated into just about every modern flashlight. He was a pioneer in the industry, and has created some of the best-engineered and most revered illumination products ever made. Everyone at SureFire thanks Paul for his many years of service, and we wish him only the best in his latest pursuits.



what are y'alls thoughts? Surely it's the end of an era, but I guess this means we can _definitely_ forget about a return to the classic Surefire era (with P60 modules, LEGO-able parts, etc.)


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## greenLED (Jan 12, 2013)

I've seen him posting gun pics on his FB profile. Kinda cool. Wherever he goes, he will bring innovation, that's for sure!

I had the great pleasure of meeting him a few years back. I still have the (now slightly modded) L1 he gifted me.


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## dougie (Jan 13, 2013)

If there is one thing in life I've learnt it's that no one is irreplaceable. Whilst PK's contribution to Surefire has undoubtedly been immense he is now gone. It will be interesting to see who steps into his shoes and what direction in style and innovation they will bring. It may well be that a new and even more interesting set of products may result from his departure.


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## EV_007 (Jan 13, 2013)

To me PK is to SureFire what SJ was to Apple, but a lot cooler PK is of course. Quite a legacy he'll be leaving behind.


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## ElectronGuru (Jan 13, 2013)

The key question is why he left. If it wasn't for true personal reasons, there may be a cultural shift that would make it just as difficult for any replacement.

One of Steve's quotes is about 'moving the needle', when marketers take over as a company's market saturates. Engineers need the freedom and support to do great things.


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## argleargle (Jan 13, 2013)

PK is *obviously* the man. Best of luck to him in all his future endeavours.

Can we talk him into modding here full time? I want to hire him for a build or two!


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## dougie (Jan 13, 2013)

ElectronGuru is of course correct that PK's departure may not have been at his instigation. However, even if that is the case I doubt that anyone other than his close friends would ever know as those things are often kept quiet for contractual reasons. I personally would like to think that conspiracy theories are unhelpful as whatever the reason for PK's departure he will no longer be working at Surefire and his departure is now a done deal! 

Surefire is more than one man no matter how important that individuals contribution has been. When one man leaves a company another is hired, simple as that. When one looks at some of the products that are coming out of China and other Far Eastern countries it is obvious that there are numerous intelligent and gifted engineers in the world of flashlights who are developing new and exciting products. I suspect that Surefire will already have a new person in the wings ready to bring new ideas to market? At the end of the day Surefire isn't about one man is it? Surefire as a company that will continue to be successful because of its reputation and because of the quality of its products.

I do suspect that PK will quickly make his mark either working for himself or for another company as he is undoubtedly a gifted engineer and designer. Furthermore, it may be that he himself wants to diversify into another field other than flashlights? One thing is certain and that is we probably haven't heard the last of PK!


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## Illum (Jan 13, 2013)

Good post dougle, nicely done :thumbsup:

I noticed someone was gone about two years before this when all of the new surefires aesthetics started having sharp changes beginning with the 6PX and G2X, and the end of the Executive series came the oddball G2D, etc... Intuitively, it struck me the same way when a chef of a fine dining restaurant died or left. The food just doesn't taste the way it used to. Its not necessarily bad tasting, just different.

Still couldn't believe PK headed Icon though, who would have thought after 19 years the man would grown a liking for alkaline batteries.


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## Burgess (Jan 13, 2013)

Good Luck to you, Paul Kim !

:thumbsup:
_


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## mega_lumens (Jan 13, 2013)

We have seen the change in direction of SF products as soon as Paul Kim was playing a lesser role in the engineering department there. SF will not collapse. We will have to wait and watch where the new road will take SF. Many have discussed the changes with SF products and the nostalgia for the "old SF." 
I wish we all see more amazing work from PK but better than Icon designs. I think one has to remember that SF has great financial resources for R&D. If a company can't spend a lot on R&D for engineers to play around in labs, then innovation and progress does not happen. Wherever PK ends up, I hope he'll have the same resources to help him create and innovate.


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## tobrien (Jan 13, 2013)

yall have offered such tremendous thoughts on this matter. thank you 

how old is PK by the way?


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## StandardBattery (Jan 13, 2013)

Although the writing has been on the wall for a while, it's still a bit sad. What was brilliant is not only his illumination products, but that he had the foresight to design and build illumination systems. I've never met him, but I admire is designs and attention to detail required to make the flexible systems he did and to have them really work and evolve. I do believe that most of the good days are over at Surefire, but that may not be their fault as much as just a general evolution of the industry and the direction it is growing. I have to think that it was actually the right time for him to leave (if not a little late), I hope he has some exciting new project that he will enjoy. It sure would be good to Shoot-the-**** with him about flashlights and working at SF. All the Best Paul.


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## Vortus (Jan 13, 2013)

What are those two beastly lights he is holding?


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## RedLED (Jan 13, 2013)

Mr. Kim, 

Good luck in your future ventures.

Thank you for giving us some of the most wonderful products in the world.

Again, good luck,

With all best wishes, 

Ned Redway, Director of Photography
Redway Photo Agency
National Political News Coverage
Corporate and Entretainment industry-
Special Events

Executive Producer
NR Digital Productions Worldwide


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## dougie (Jan 13, 2013)

I would have to respectfully differ in the suggestion that we may have seen the best of Surefire. I'm by no means a Surefire fanboy but I do admire them as a company and of how they have contributed to, and advanced, flashlight design. PK was an extremely important part of the story so far but you can't equate a company's success to one individual no matter how likeable or brilliant they may be. What is undoubtedly correct is the assertion that flashlight technology is advancing extremely quickly and is driven in no small part by competition from the Far East. Surefire's success has never to my mind been about making cheap flashlights it's about making a technically great product fit for the purpose it was designed for. Whilst the competition is now upping its game there are still very few people or organisations in either the military or law enforcement that use or trust products worldwide as much as they do Surefire. However, Surefire are not, and haven't, stood still and I'm sure will meet these challenges with new and better products in the future. Nothing drives innovation as much as competition and with the amount of competition in flashlight manufacture as there is now I'm confident that Surefire will still be producing cutting edge products in the future.


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## prime77 (Jan 14, 2013)

I have some of the "old school" Surefire lights designed by PK and I will enjoy using them for years to come. I wish PK all the best with whatever his future holds. 

I did a little searching for more info on this story and stumbled on this web page that looks very interesting. Check out the blog posts and gallery. 

http://www.pkdesignlab.com/index.html


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## Silgt (Jan 14, 2013)

EV_007 said:


> To me PK is to SureFire what SJ was to Apple...



+1 :thumbsup:




ElectronGuru said:


> The key question is why he left....One of Steve's quotes is about 'moving the needle', when marketers take over as a company's market saturates. Engineers need the freedom and support to do great things.



True engineers/technicians and marketers/bean counters seldom see eye to eye...one likes to be creative, push the boundaries of the industry while the other let the bottom line dictates their decisions.

I truly believe the best days of Surefire has long gone. As great as some of their products are in the past, their new lines just do not interest me one bit. I believe their price/performance and innovation of the past has evaporated. Past reliability record alone does not mean the brand will do well in the market place going forward (I know they have the lucrative military and law enforcement contracts, and so long as that remains Surefire will continue to survive) but in the face of fierce competitions especially from the East, a more innovative and hungry competitors working at a lower cost based will surely be able to match any of Surefire's advantages at the given (premium) price point.


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## Rat (Jan 14, 2013)

prime77 said:


> I have some of the "old school" Surefire lights designed by PK and I will enjoy using them for years to come. I wish PK all the best with whatever his future holds.
> 
> I did a little searching for more info on this story and stumbled on this web page that looks very interesting. Check out the blog posts and gallery.
> 
> http://www.pkdesignlab.com/index.html



WOW those PK1 & PK2 lights look great. Looks like we will have more PK lights to come in the future. I just hope he also works with Surefire again for some special editions.


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## Silgt (Jan 14, 2013)

prime77 said:


> I have some of the "old school" Surefire lights designed by PK and I will enjoy using them for years to come. I wish PK all the best with whatever his future holds.
> 
> I did a little searching for more info on this story and stumbled on this web page that looks very interesting. Check out the blog posts and gallery.
> 
> http://www.pkdesignlab.com/index.html



I love all my old school Surefire and I too will enjoy them for the years to come.

The new pk1 & pk2 looked very interesting indeed. I think PK's departure from Surefire has been in the work probably many many moons ago


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## dano (Jan 14, 2013)

Vortus said:


> What are those two beastly lights he is holding?



Beast and Hellfire HID prototypes.


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## Lightman2 (Jan 14, 2013)

No biggie. There's someone out there.


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## ampdude (Jan 14, 2013)

Just another step in the wrong direction for Surefire.


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## gravelrash (Jan 14, 2013)

I wish my desk looked like that...


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## Burgess (Jan 14, 2013)

on a related note . . . .

T'was opening day of SHOTshow *LAST YEAR*,
when SureFire lawyers handed out Legal Papers to a number of well-known flashlight manufacturers.


_
What has this to do whith the current thread topic? - Norm


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## Mathiashogevold (Jan 14, 2013)

prime77 said:


> http://www.pkdesignlab.com/index.html



Cool lights. I really wonder why the lights has the FoxFury brand name engraved on it? 
Is is Foxfury that machines the lights etc, or do you think PKleft Surefire for FoxFury?


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## ElectronGuru (Jan 14, 2013)

The independent web site and double branding suggests he's now a design consultant, available for individual projects.


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## griff (Jan 14, 2013)

at 2008 shot SUREFIRE/CPF party . PK introduced us to the "new" PK I can't remember his name but PK said that it was his last shot as VP.


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## Vox Clamatis in Deserto (Jan 14, 2013)

Is it a coincidence or is Alastair suddenly conspicuously missing here on CPF as PK departs SF?


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## lampeDépêche (Jan 14, 2013)

dougie said:


> If there is one thing in life I've learnt it's that no one is irreplaceable.



Agreed. But the following is equally true, if not more so:

"If there is one thing in life I've learnt it's that no *company* is irreplaceable."

I bought my first Surefire in 1990. Companies have life-cycles, just as much as people do.


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## ampdude (Jan 14, 2013)

lampeDépêche said:


> Companies have life-cycles,



Without a doubt. There is the time when the company is healthy, puts out quality products, and is well respected. Then there comes a point where the company decides to rest on its laurels and ride its brand name as a cash cow for whatever length of time it can.


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## Tiresius (Jan 14, 2013)

what is that light on his right hand? I've never seen it in their site.


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## Vox Clamatis in Deserto (Jan 14, 2013)

Tiresius said:


> what is that light on his right hand? I've never seen it in their site.



According to this earlier CPF thread, and a post above, the picture is from the 2002 SF catalog and the lights are early prototypes of the Hellfire and the Beast, not sure which is in his right hand:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?51699-About-the-B1-amp-B2-SF-s-HID-light


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## ampdude (Jan 14, 2013)

Yea that is strange, it looks like a Beast type body with a Hellfire type head. Cool stuff, the good old days... lol


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## StandardBattery (Jan 14, 2013)

ElectronGuru said:


> The independent web site and double branding suggests he's now a design consultant, available for individual projects.



[h=2]pk new Tactical flashlight concept design corroboration w/FoxFury shown at Shot Show 2013. - 01/15/2013[/h]


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## nbp (Jan 14, 2013)

If those PK1 and PK2 lights are the direction he's going now, count me out. :sick2:


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## carrot (Jan 14, 2013)

PK is certainly one of the best minds in the flashlight industry today. Let's hope he continues to improve the lighting landscape. 

It's pretty clear he started losing influence in the design of Surefires years ago; hopefully if he moves on to other projects with new companies we'll see lights as awesome as the old Surefires we used to love.


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## pjandyho (Jan 14, 2013)

PK told me quite some time back that he is no longer involved with the design work for Surefire. I personally felt that ever since then, most of the newer designs just doesn't appeal to me.

Lets take the Fury series as an example. Other than the brighter output, all thanks to Cree for the XM-L, the entire light just smell of corner cutting. Where are the knurling that makes the 6P so nice to hold onto? The Fury as well as 6PX are just too smooth to pass for tactical use. The anti-roll feature on the Fury is just too shallow to be effective at all. 2nd day of using it and it rolled off the bench.

The new 4 function switch just sticks out like a sore thumb. How does Surefire expect their users to holster their lights around with it activating in the holster? A few LE officers have complained about the UNR activating while they sat in the patrol car.

As for the R1 Lawman? Love this light but still has some silly design features. I can lock out the tail cap but can't lock out the side switch? Silly isn't it? Let's talk about the Maxblast feature which I love but which was poorly executed in the R1 Lawman. Lets say I am on low output and I depress the tailcap to achieve momentary full output. Why does the light turn off when I release the tailcap switch instead of going back to the low output in which I was previously on? It's just plain silly if you ask me. I have to keep fumbling between the tail switch and side switch whenever I use the Maxblast feature.

I just felt that Surefire as a whole, have already lost it's luster ever since PK was no longer involved. And yes, way overpriced for what they are delivering now to their consumers.


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## StandardBattery (Jan 14, 2013)

nbp said:


> If those PK1 and PK2 lights are the direction he's going now, count me out. :sick2:



Call me weird... *I like them.*


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## Vox Clamatis in Deserto (Jan 14, 2013)

nbp said:


> If those PK1 and PK2 lights are the direction he's going now, count me out. :sick2:



It does look like he's gone heavy metal, maybe it's to reach a hip young demographic or something. Are FoxFury's made in China? They announce a 'special guest' in the SHOT Show 2013 media release: http://www.prweb.com/releases/2013/1/prweb10286339.htm



pjandyho said:


> I just felt that Surefire as a whole, have already lost it's luster ever since PK was no longer involved. And yes, way overpriced for what they are delivering now to their consumers.



Oh no, discussing SF pricing policy in negative terms is a traditional taboo here on CPF.:duck:


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## pjandyho (Jan 14, 2013)

Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> Oh no, discussing SF pricing policy in negative terms is a traditional taboo here on CPF.:duck:


Well, I may complain about the price but I am still a regular purchaser of SF products. I am a fan of SF and PK but never really a fanboy. I will still bite if SF fails me.


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## nbp (Jan 14, 2013)

Vox Clamatis in Deserto said:


> It does look like he's gone heavy metal, maybe it's to reach a hip young demographic or something.



I'm young and I'm hip...and I don't like 'em. :laughing:

Where am I supposed to put that thing?! Certainly not in a pocket. And sliding in a holster is completely out of the question. Yikes. Give me the C2 body lines any day.


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## mvyrmnd (Jan 15, 2013)

StandardBattery said:


> Call me weird... *I like them.*



You're weird!


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## 1pt21 (Jan 15, 2013)

*If I was PK, I would have left SF too..*

SureFire's newer lineup of lights don't even feel like SF's to me.

As someone mentioned earlier, it's pretty clear he stepped out a while ago.. It's just becoming "official" now.


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## Pöbel (Jan 15, 2013)

I agree. The design of some of the new lights just looks too generic. The loved surefire styling is gone. Maybe we are being sentimental fools, but for me flashlight design is important, although flashlights are just tools. I like when my tools look good


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## dano (Jan 15, 2013)

1pt21 said:


> *If I was PK, I would have left SF too..*
> 
> SureFire's newer lineup of lights don't even feel like SF's to me.
> 
> As someone mentioned earlier, it's pretty clear he stepped out a while ago.. It's just becoming "official" now.



I'd say the current line up is more SF, pre-Kim, similar to the original 6P, 8X, 9N, 9AN, etc...


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## StandardBattery (Jan 15, 2013)

nbp said:


> ....
> 
> Where am I supposed to put that thing?! ....



That is a bit of a problem. I usually never go for strike bezel designs. I think putting the LEDs in there made me accept them because they could be dulled a bit if necessary. I like the design because it has many practical features (grip, anti-roll, dual lighting) and looks good to me. 



mvyrmnd said:


> You're weird!


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## WDR65 (Jan 15, 2013)

While I read this with a bit of dissapointment and nostalgia I hope he does well in his future endeavours. He may be just what Foxfury needs, I for one have noticed that their models appear to have great features that other makers don't seem to take note of but they lack a certain style that makes them appeal to many people.


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## ElectronGuru (Jan 15, 2013)

dano said:


> I'd say the current line up is more SF, pre-Kim, similar to the original 6P, 8X, 9N, 9AN, etc...



Interesting. Like someone is back in charge again, with something to prove.


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## Rat (Jan 15, 2013)

I do not understand why they cannot keep a classic like the C2 in production.
I am sure they will still sell. They are missing a P60 type light in there line up.

If PK left Surefire on good terms maybe PK design labs could do a Special PK C2 type of light in the future.

I like the FF-PK's so I also must be weird but I always knew that


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## pjandyho (Jan 15, 2013)

Now I am curious. I remember reading the many patents registered to Paul Kim. So, does Surefire own the patents, or is it PK?


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## nbp (Jan 15, 2013)

Probably SF, I'm sure they put up the money to pay for all those patents.


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## ElectronGuru (Jan 15, 2013)

The money for the patent registration, but also the money for PKs time to create the design in the first place. There's a specific legal phrase, but employees don't get to keep what they create at the office. Without contractual exception, having their name on a patent is more less honorary.


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## Silgt (Jan 15, 2013)

On most of the pattern filling it appearance that Surefire were assigned the right to produce flashlights based on the patterns. The owner of the patterns is PK himself, at least that's my interpretations.


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## pjandyho (Jan 15, 2013)

nbp said:


> Probably SF, I'm sure they put up the money to pay for all those patents.





ElectronGuru said:


> The money for the patent registration, but also the money for PKs time to create the design in the first place. There's a specific legal phrase, but employees don't get to keep what they create at the office. Without contractual exception, having their name on a patent is more less honorary.


I am very much inclined to believe this to be the case. Was just wondering what would happen should PK hold the rights to those patents but I doubt he does hold those rights.


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## Vox Clamatis in Deserto (Jan 15, 2013)

nbp said:


> Probably SF, I'm sure they put up the money to pay for all those patents.



Yep and it was SF that served legal papers at several other SHOT Show booths last year claiming infringement of many of those PK _et al._ patents:

http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/sh...e-files-lawsuits-claiming-patent-infringement



pjandyho said:


> I am very much inclined to believe this to be the case. Was just wondering what would happen should PK hold the rights to those patents but I doubt he does hold those rights.



Here's a reference for us sea lawyers on the ownership rights of a U.S. patent:

http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/s301.html


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## skyfire (Jan 15, 2013)

i had actually thought PK was no longer with SF since their drastic changes to their line-up.
like many others here, i also prefer the older surefires, and the newer look and feel of their current line-up just isnt the same.

i hope PK will continue designing, and the best of luck to him post-surefire.


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## Tiresius (Jan 15, 2013)

skyfire said:


> i had actually thought PK was no longer with SF since their drastic changes to their line-up.
> like many others here, i also prefer the older surefires, and the newer look and feel of their current line-up just isnt the same.



Like the gnurling grip on their lights? The new ones are a bit too smooth to the hands and they tried to compensate for it by using finger grooves or a rubber grip ring. I honestly think that the finger grip would distract users more than it is useful in a field situation.


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## Vox Clamatis in Deserto (Jan 15, 2013)

A PK sighting in Las Vegas last night with pictures:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...13-logistics&p=4115480&viewfull=1#post4115480


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## dougie (Jan 15, 2013)

I actually like the styling of the newer Surefire lights. The only thing I wasn't impressed by was the shape of the bezels on the X series lights. I suspect that it 'potentially' offers a larger heatsink area compared to the original hex style? However that is pure speculation on my part. What I am personally satisfied with is the aesthetics and grip afforded by the body style of the X series bodies and tailcaps which don't present me with a problem of grip. Of course we are all subjective with our tastes but I'd assume that Surefire would of done some market research prior to committing to that restyle. I can't believe that in this day and age any manufacturer releases new products without ensuring that potential customers are not alienated by a new design?


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## Onthelightside (Jan 15, 2013)

Would it be possible for someone to post a picture of a light that he designed I came to this forum too late to know what kind of light you are talking about and I am curious now to see the difference between the current SF and some of the PK SF lights.


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## Vesper (Jan 15, 2013)

Paul Kim designed ICON lights too, didn't he?
I liked the aesthetics. What part in ICON did he play besides design?


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## Greta (Jan 15, 2013)

Mario of Foxfury and PK with the PK2... Yes, the little LEDs are blue!


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## pjandyho (Jan 16, 2013)

Onthelightside said:


> Would it be possible for someone to post a picture of a light that he designed I came to this forum too late to know what kind of light you are talking about and I am curious now to see the difference between the current SF and some of the PK SF lights.


Although they say a picture speaks a thousand words, the same can't always be said for PK's designs. You have to feel it and use it to see the difference. It's not just about looks but rather the overall feel and the user interface (UI).


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## monkeyboy (Jan 16, 2013)

On the main forum page, the title is shortened to "Paul Kim (PK) is no longer". That makes it sound a lot worse than it really is.


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## ampdude (Jan 16, 2013)

Got this email from Spyder Tactical today, saying that despite an extremely heavy sales period, Surefire has laid off staff and decreased production, so they are discontinuing carrying Surefire products.

I'm not sure if posting the contents of the email is permissible here so that's probably all I can say, but it was an open email to all of their customers. What is going on at Surefire? :thinking:


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## dano (Jan 16, 2013)

ampdude said:


> Got this email from Spyder Tactical today, saying that despite an extremely heavy sales period, Surefire has laid off staff and decreased production, so they are discontinuing carrying Surefire products.
> 
> I'm not sure if posting the contents of the email is permissible here so that's probably all I can say, but it was an open email to all of their customers. What is going on at Surefire? :thinking:



I'm guessing it's the decreasing ops in the middle east...


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## Skyline (Jan 16, 2013)

ElectronGuru said:


> The money for the patent registration, but also the money for PKs time to create the design in the first place. There's a specific legal phrase, but employees don't get to keep what they create at the office. Without contractual exception, having their name on a patent is more less honorary.



^ This.

It makes poor business sense for an employee to own the patents for the business's products. I'm not a lawyer, but I am the lead inventor on a patent myself. My firm is the assignee for the patent though. Like someone said, it's more or less a honorary thing, and I get to put it on my resume if I wish.

I just did a quick search for Kim, Paul as a patent inventor. Looking through a few of them, they all say:

Assignee:	SureFire, LLC (Fountain Valley, CA)


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## mookie (Jan 16, 2013)

Surefire makes some nice flashlights, but there are so many different manufactures out there pushing the design envelope. So many people just want a flashlight for general use around the house,then there are many people who want to use them for specific use that there will always be someone designing for that particular use. You can not be everything to all,there is always room for innovation no matter what you think


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## 880arm (Jan 16, 2013)

Skyline said:


> ^ This.
> 
> It makes poor business sense for an employee to own the patents for the business's products. I'm not a lawyer, but I am the lead inventor on a patent myself. My firm is the assignee for the patent though. Like someone said, it's more or less a honorary thing, and I get to put it on my resume if I wish.
> 
> ...



I'm not a lawyer either but it's pretty common for employment agreements to state that any intellectual property developed during employment (that relates to the business) belongs to the employer. I know I have signed a couple like that.


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## BVH (Jan 16, 2013)

Avoiding the trigger for healthcare law?



ampdude said:


> .........................What is going on at Surefire? :thinking:


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## Darvis (Jan 16, 2013)

ElectronGuru said:


> The independent web site and double branding suggests he's now a design consultant, available for individual projects.



Not sure what his going rate is, but a PK/OR collaboration would make my brain explode.... Just Saying.


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## Silgt (Jan 17, 2013)

880arm said:


> I'm not a lawyer either but it's pretty common for employment agreements to state that any intellectual property developed during employment (that relates to the business) belongs to the employer. I know I have signed a couple like that.



That's very true...but it will also depends on who have the stronger hands in the bargaining table


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## Illum (Jan 17, 2013)

tobrien said:


> how old is PK by the way?






Born December 22, 1962 

I think we are turning PK into a martyr and overlooking him as a human.


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## 880arm (Jan 17, 2013)

Silgt said:


> That's very true...but it will also depends on who have the stronger hands in the bargaining table



I agree. I don't know how much power PK had when he first joined Surefire


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## flashfan (Jan 18, 2013)

End of an era, indeed. PK just seemed synonymous with SF. Never met the man, but from what I recall reading over the years, he is one heck of a guy. Fun, funny, generous, and a genius to boot. Remember that hilarious photo of PK with his multitool/gun? Then there were all of those shot show and cpf events/specials provided and/or organized by PK/SF.

Looking forward to seeing PK's new inventions and adventures. Hope he'll share them with us here.


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## Monocrom (Jan 20, 2013)

dougie said:


> If there is one thing in life I've learnt it's that no one is irreplaceable. Whilst PK's contribution to Surefire has undoubtedly been immense he is now gone. It will be interesting to see who steps into his shoes and what direction in style and innovation they will bring. It may well be that a new and even more interesting set of products may result from his departure.



Ironically, I've learned the very opposite from Life. While many are indeed replaceable. There are those whose insight, wisdom, and abilities simply cannot be replaced. There was only one Einstein, only one John Moses Browning, only one Teddy Roosevelt, etc. 

No, some folks you can't just replace with a just-as-good substitute. SureFire simply would not be where it is today, would not be nearly as successful, without Paul Kim. And while he didn't design every SureFire model (G2 being the only one that popped into my head), he was responsible for much of the success that SureFire has enjoyed over the years. While I've made mention of some of SureFire's odorous business practices over the years, I have continued to buy SureFire lights. The quality of the models themselves have never been suspect or "odorous." Much respect to Paul Kim for all that he has done and achieved.


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## dougie (Jan 20, 2013)

The analogy to historic figures is perhaps too far a step to contemplate. Any business is only as good as its workers. However, I don't equate any company's success by the efforts of one individual but rather by the efforts of all of them. A clever and gifted engineer like PK has given Surefire some excellent and innovative designs which to date have been part of Surefire's success. To suggest he is irreplaceable would be a disservice to all the other engineers and other workers who have also worked equally hard to make their contribution to Surefire a success.

As one individual leaves an organisation it leaves room for another to bring new ideas and to go in a new direction. Sometimes this works and occasionally it fails. However, it is part and parcel of business to hire, fire and loose individuals. Rather than lament what has happened I will look forward to a new direction that PK's departure has caused.

As for PK I'm confident that the man can't be defined simply for his contribution to one company and will prove equally successful in whatever new venture he gets involved in.


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## ElectronGuru (Jan 20, 2013)

More good points here. I would add an analogy to musical bands.

2 or 3 or 4 individuals, who come together at a certain time, and using a fairly standard set of instruments (tools), make a particular sound. Change or remove one person and the sound changes. A vocalist, certainly, but even bass or guitar adds a particular flavor.

What folks are lamenting is the loss of the particular sound that SF had while PK was there. With him not there, SF sounds different. But as exemplified by Icon, so to will PK sound different for not being with/around whoever he was with at SF.

Neither's sound will ever be the same.


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## [email protected] (Jan 20, 2013)

Monocrom said:


> Ironically, I've learned the very opposite from Life. While many are indeed replaceable. There are those whose insight, wisdom, and abilities simply cannot be replaced. There was only one Einstein, only one John Moses Browning, only one Teddy Roosevelt, etc.
> 
> No, some folks you can't just replace with a just-as-good substitute. SureFire simply would not be where it is today, would not be nearly as successful, without Paul Kim. And while he didn't design every SureFire model (G2 being the only one that popped into my head), he was responsible for much of the success that SureFire has enjoyed over the years. While I've made mention of some of SureFire's odorous business practices over the years, I have continued to buy SureFire lights. The quality of the models themselves have never been suspect or "odorous." Much respect to Paul Kim for all that he has done and achieved.



Well said Monocrom. It's a phrase that tends to be tossed around a little too causually without enough consideration of some folks contributions to their organization.

My bosses boss likes to mention that no one can't be replaced. The fact is however, that I just don't see any brightlights in our organization with the mileage of those two to step up should the two of them move on. I don't think saying that lessens any of my peers or my contributions. One of my favorite statements is, "we will succeed as a team, and we can fail as a team".


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## dougie (Jan 20, 2013)

I've never diminised the contribution of an individual to an organizations success but simply acknowledged that an individuals contribution is simply one part of a company's success. Surefire will survive this interruption to its future as a hiccup rather than as a catastrophe.


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## Monocrom (Jan 20, 2013)

dougie said:


> The analogy to historic figures is perhaps too far a step to contemplate. Any business is only as good as its workers. However, I don't equate any company's success by the efforts of one individual but rather by the efforts of all of them. A clever and gifted engineer like PK has given Surefire some excellent and innovative designs which to date have been part of Surefire's success. To suggest he is irreplaceable would be a disservice to all the other engineers and other workers who have also worked equally hard to make their contribution to Surefire a success.



Once again, I have to disagree. Not completely though. Yes, for some businesses, what you mentioned above is 100% true. However, I have seen that for others; it truly is the contributions of one individual that makes the business a success. No disservice intended to the other engineers at SureFire. It is simply no secret to the flashaholic community that Paul Kim comes up with one winning design after another for SureFire. Am I suggesting he's irreplaceable? Yes. I've seen companies go down the crapper and even out of business due to no longer being able to hold onto the one "employee" whose efforts brought in a big slice of the company's profits. Sometimes, that individual chooses to leave on his own to tackle new challenges. Other times, those in charge think they can do better without him. 

If you run a pizza shop, you can easily find a new guy to flip the dough and make pizzas. When you run a company like SureFire that requires a gifted, visionary, individual for it to be a success . . . Good luck finding a replacement for someone like that! Even within your own company. 



> As one individual leaves an organization it leaves room for another to bring new ideas and to go in a new direction. Sometimes this works and occasionally it fails. However, it is part and parcel of business to hire, fire and lose individuals. Rather than lament what has happened I will look forward to a new direction that PK's departure has caused.



Unfortunately, that new direction is sometimes straight into the crapper. Yes, hiring, firing, and losing individuals is part of business. However, successful businessmen know how to hold onto those individuals who generate lots of revenue for them. It's why professional sports players are paid so much. If you think Shaq is rich, that's nothing compared to the man who writes Shaq's paychecks. The man who wants a winning team, knows that a winning team generates more revenue, and (more importantly) knows that Super Star players aren't a dime a dozen or easily replaceable. So, he knows how to hire players, how to fire those who aren't performing well at all, and as for Super Star players who are lost . . . To a heart-attack or terrible car accident. But not to deciding that they can easily go out and find another Shaq who'll be willing to play for less money. 

I'm not saying that's what took place with Paul Kim. I'm just using the above to illustrate that truly gifted and talented individuals are not a dime a dozen, or even two for a dollar. Smart businessmen realize that. The truth is, I've been fortunate in that I started collecting flashlights while PK was at the helm. I literally own every SureFire model I've wanted. On a personal note, it doesn't matter to me what direction SureFire goes in now, without Paul Kim. I'm not looking forward to it. Honestly, I think it's going to go straight down. Even before finding this topic and learning about his departure from SureFire, I haven't been happy with what I've seen. I've actually posted in other topics that what we've been seeing these past couple of months is the end of the golden age of SureFire. The funny thing is, no one disagreed with me when I posted that. 



> As for PK I'm confident that the man can't be defined simply for his contribution to one company and will prove equally successful in whatever new venture he gets involved in.



I agree with you completely.


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## Monocrom (Jan 20, 2013)

dougie said:


> Surefire will survive this interruption to its future as a hiccup rather than as a catastrophe.



Survive? Yes. Very likely.

Thrive? That's another matter.


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## Burgess (Jan 20, 2013)

Very interesting thread.


Here is MY take on the matter:

I see this as . . . .


" Thank you for making us NUMBER ONE ! ! !


Now -- don't let the door hit ya' in the *** on the way out ! "




_


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## Lightman2 (Jan 21, 2013)

:tired:


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## dougie (Jan 21, 2013)

Monocrom, I agree we may have to disagree over recent staff changes at Surefire. However, it is one of the joys of being part of a thriving community like CPF that people can debate these issues without rancour. 

My take on the situation is that Surefire will continue to attract new and ambitious engineers who will be just as keen to prove themselves as PK was when he started work for them. I expect new products and different styles as a result. Your opinion, is that PK and Surefire are synonymous and therefore his departure will lead to a demise of Surefire as the leading US flashlight manufacturer. I guess only time will prove which one of us is right?

The one area that we do agree on is that PK is a exceptional engineer. Exceptional engineers with the gift of being able to bring their ideas to fruition are very rare. As I've already alluded to in previous posts PK's talents will undoubtedly attract other companies to seek him out either as an employee or consultant. In this regard I have no fears about his future.


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## tab665 (Jan 21, 2013)

but look at that fox fury design he did. *IF* thats the direction he wanted to take his designs then i can see why surefire said no thanks.


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## Monocrom (Jan 21, 2013)

dougie said:


> Monocrom, I agree we may have to disagree over recent staff changes at Surefire. However, it is one of the joys of being part of a thriving community like CPF that people can debate these issues without rancour.
> 
> My take on the situation is that Surefire will continue to attract new and ambitious engineers who will be just as keen to prove themselves as PK was when he started work for them. I expect new products and different styles as a result. Your opinion, is that PK and Surefire are synonymous and therefore his departure will lead to a demise of Surefire as the leading US flashlight manufacturer. I guess only time will prove which one of us is right?
> 
> The one area that we do agree on is that PK is a exceptional engineer. Exceptional engineers with the gift of being able to bring their ideas to fruition are very rare. As I've already alluded to in previous posts PK's talents will undoubtedly attract other companies to seek him out either as an employee or consultant. In this regard I have no fears about his future.



Well said.

I must admit to being very cautiously optimistic with the announced 2013 models. Especially since we collectively know how bad SureFire can be with their enthusiastic announcements of new models. (Their Peacekeeper model for 2013 doesn't even come up on a Google image search, yet.) With their generally hit or miss way of doing things regarding rechargeable models, I'm curious to see if this one will be worth picking up.


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## Silgt (Jan 21, 2013)

tab665 said:


> but look at that fox fury design he did. if thats the direction he wanted to take his designs then i can see why surefire said no thanks.


is that a fact? how'd you know the thought process of Surefire product development?


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## dougie (Jan 21, 2013)

Monocrom,

Well another thing we agree on is that Surefire do have a bad habit of announcing products that either never make it to market OR take too long to get there! :shakehead That is one area of business practice that confuses me but then again I obviously don't see Surefire's bigger picture....lol


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## Monocrom (Jan 21, 2013)

dougie said:


> Monocrom,
> 
> Well another thing we agree on is that Surefire do have a bad habit of announcing products that either never make it to market OR take too long to get there! :shakehead That is one area of business practice that confuses me but then again I obviously don't see Surefire's bigger picture....lol



Sometimes SureFire is like a kid in a Toy Store a week before its Birthday . . . Getting *way* too excited about all the "toys" in sight.


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## tab665 (Jan 21, 2013)

Silgt said:


> is that a fact? how'd you know the thought process of Surefire product development?



no, its not a fact. i dont think i worded it to sound like fact. i will go back and capitalize the "if" to avoid confusion.


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## Silgt (Jan 21, 2013)

^ IMO I would think if PK remains in SF his designs will be rather more conservative within the existing tactical and consumer based?

now that he has a free hand to let his imagination loose, we might just see some whacky PK designs, which (the PK1 and PK2) I happened to like.

To make assumptions that SF "released" PK because of their "alleged" difference in design philosophy and the "assumed" products directions is unfair to both PK and SF. It might be just a case where both parties decided that they have gone as far as it is mutually beneficial to both of them and a long hand-over process was already in placed years ago...which is why we have seen a change in SF's products design over the past couple of years before PK officially leave the company.


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## coloradogps (Jan 21, 2013)

Silgt said:


> ^ IMO I would think if PK remains in SF his designs will be rather more conservative within the existing tactical and consumer based?
> 
> now that he has a free hand to let his imagination loose, we might just see some whacky PK designs, which (the PK1 and PK2) I happened to like.
> 
> To make assumptions that SF "released" PK because of their "alleged" difference in design philosophy and the "assumed" products directions is unfair to both PK and SF. It might be just a case where both parties decided that they have gone as far as it is mutually beneficial to both of them and a long hand-over process was already in placed years ago...which is why we have seen a change in SF's products design over the past couple of years before PK officially leave the company.



+1


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## tab665 (Jan 21, 2013)

Silgt said:


> ^ IMO I would think if PK remains in SF his designs will be rather more conservative within the existing tactical and consumer based?
> 
> now that he has a free hand to let his imagination loose, we might just see some whacky PK designs, which (the PK1 and PK2) I happened to like.
> 
> To make assumptions that SF "released" PK because of their "alleged" difference in design philosophy and the "assumed" products directions is unfair to both PK and SF. It might be just a case where both parties decided that they have gone as far as it is mutually beneficial to both of them and a long hand-over process was already in placed years ago...which is why we have seen a change in SF's products design over the past couple of years before PK officially leave the company.



thats a good theory as well.


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## Esko (Jan 21, 2013)

tab665 said:


> but look at that fox fury design he did. *IF* thats the direction he wanted to take his designs then i can see why surefire said no thanks.



PK is an independent designer now. He designed those lights for FoxFury. If you check their current models, you can agree that they will suit there just fine. PK lights seem to be more tactical versions of some Rook models.

The next flashlight that he designs may be completely different.


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## RNDDUDE (Jan 21, 2013)

Rumor has it that Paul Kim has not had an office at Surefire's Fountain Valley Ca. faculity for over two years while working on Icon products. 

As to patents, it is standard business practice to have all employee patents relating to a company's core competency be automatically assigned to the company. The inventor(s) names are indeed still on the patent as inventors, but all rights of use and profits belong to the company, no matter how profitable it might be. Compensation is only in their paycheck and employment, although some companies are pragmatic and give "performance" bonuses in an attempt to reward the inventors contributions and/or keep them from leaving. 

However, there have been a few landmark cases where an ex-employee has successfully sued for more compensation based on the profit his/her invention brought to the company. Of particular relevance here is Shuji Nakamura who, when working at Nichea for a menial salary, made huge strides in LED technology that made the once small company a fortune. He successfully sued them for non-compensation and won a not small settlement.

http://www.ledinside.com/interview/2010/10/20101029_Shuji_Nakamura


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## Mathiashogevold (Jan 22, 2013)

According to pk's Facebook: VP of Engineering for Surefire November 1993- January 2009. 
So he hasn't actually been working with Surefire for 3 years...


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## dougie (Jan 22, 2013)

I personally wish we could move away from conjecture about PK's departure from Surefire as I don't think it is constructive to debate what happened to cause PK and Surefire to part company. As I've previously posted the only communication we have about this situation is from Surefire and that's most likely the only one we are going to hear. 

It seems to me that people are beginning to construct conspiracy theories where none may exist and in doing so risk either falling into a pro or anti Surefire camp? If the situation is as the press release suggests entirely amicable then we risk doing an injustice to both parties which may be entirely happy with the situation?

I don't know PK but have terrific admiration for him based on his talents as an engineer and designer and by the many testimonials to him as a person which various contributors on both this and other forums have posted. I equally have great liking for a great American company like Surefire, although that doesn't mean I'm unable to form adverse opinion on some of their products or business practice.


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## Solscud007 (Jan 22, 2013)

PK has a new site. http://pkdesignlab.com/index.html

And a facebook page.


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## Silgt (Jan 22, 2013)

^ fyi. info already posted on Page 1 (post #16)


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## houtex (Jan 23, 2013)

his designs remind me of Vital Gear


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## 1pt21 (Jan 24, 2013)

houtex said:


> his designs remind me of Vital Gear



Agreed.. Especially the PK1 (body), looks like a much cooler VG body.

*Oh man, I can't wait to get my hands on some PK goodies.. Any ideas when will this PK goodness will hit the market???
*


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## dmz (Jan 26, 2013)

The flashlights that came out during Paul Kim's time at SF were the best looking. The current melted look looks cheaper to me. The leds in SFs are more advanced now but the competition offer way more lumens for a lower price. I wonder if Paul Kim's time at SF is the peak of SF. There are so many competitors now. New lights every week. I can't keep track of all the new lights.

One thing for sure is the used SF lights from Paul Kim's time are still selling for top dollar.


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## lapd.erik (Jan 26, 2013)

I have so much respect for Paul Kim. A true innovator!


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## Vox Clamatis in Deserto (Jan 26, 2013)

dmz said:


> I wonder if Paul Kim's time at SF is the peak of SF.



I would say that is a very fair question.


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## socom1970 (Jan 26, 2013)

I wonder if we could post the Surefires designed by PK through the years. Sort of a small tribute to him as well as a reference for anyone who wants to know (myself included). I personally loved surefires because of PK being such an integral part of them, knowing he was/is one of us CPF'ers. That was very important to me.

I have loved Surefires for a long time. I bought my first SF 6R in 1992 and have been collecting them ever since. When they began redesigning their lights (6p, A2, L2, etc..) with their smoothie designs and tactical knurling all gone, I lost interest just as others have. I now want to collect as many surefires from that special era as I can. 

Aside from one or two newer versions of some old favorites, I just don't have the same interest level with surefires that I used to.


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## Monocrom (Jan 26, 2013)

socom1970 said:


> Aside from one or two newer versions of some old favorites, I just don't have the same interest level with surefires that I used to.



I'd say the two of us are not the only ones who feel that way.


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## Illum (Jan 26, 2013)

Monocrom said:


> I'd say the two of us are not the only ones who feel that way.


+1

Feeling like Maglite actually,


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## 1pt21 (Jan 31, 2013)

Illum said:


> +1
> 
> Feeling like Maglite actually,




+2


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## Silgt (Jan 31, 2013)

Illum said:


> +1
> 
> Feeling like Maglite actually,



+100 ...felt exactly the same way


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