# Top 3 hand held HIDs?



## BeastFlashlight (Mar 31, 2013)

Can anybody throw out a quick top 3 list for a super quality hand held sized HID, assuming that price is not an issue? Size limit being about 8" long, body up to 2-3" thick, maybe head can be a bit wider. I know FF3 is a good one. Other than that I don't know which ones are junk and which ones have a great reputation.


----------



## BeastFlashlight (Apr 1, 2013)

Ok, I think the answer is Polarion, Polarion, Polarion from what I've been finding. I did kind of already know that people were saying Polarian but I second guessed it because these models are old. It's weird HIDs seem to have the same leading flashlights today as 3 years ago unlike LED where lights 3 years ago are dinosaurs. I guess HID is a matured technology and LED is an evolving one.


----------



## Parker VH (Apr 1, 2013)

Polarions are longer than 8"


----------



## Patriot (Apr 1, 2013)

Top HID's under 8".........

The FF3/4 but you're going to have to widen your parameters as I don't know of any others that are in production under 8"

Overall, I'd say Polarion, AELight, Surefire. 

I would put XeVision in there but they're more of a ballast supplier to Lemax, or Mac's Custom's. They don't actually build handheld HIDs these days...... but they promise they will. 
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?166756-Xeray-quot-The-Bomb-quot-status
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...y-250-Watt-HID-Flashlight-Project-Discussions
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...-Discussions&p=4099554&viewfull=1#post4099554
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...ire-Maxabeam&p=4116624&highlight=#post4116624


A list of the highest value lights would be different but the FF3/4 would certainly have to be in that line up.


----------



## BeastFlashlight (Apr 1, 2013)

Ok thanks guys, i just read this I will be checking those links out later on. I do now see that the Abyss is over 8", i was kind of going with a ball park length but they look pretty portable. The thing about Polarion (I think) is that u will pay thru the nose for top of the line quality but u are still just getting 45 watts. Similar to paying top dollar for Elzetta LED but only getting 500 lumens. But u can still get a pretty damn decent 500 lumen LED for much less. 

So what I'm hoping for is a pretty damn good quality (but short of Polarion, and far from junk) hand held HID as powerful as I can get it, maybe 85-100 watts, or 65 if that would be hand held limit. It would be lower quality than Polarion but more light! I would love to find someone who does good HID mods in here too and give them a solid host to do it with. I still gotta read thru the links above hopefully I find someone in there thanks Patriot


----------



## BeastFlashlight (Apr 1, 2013)

I really wish Polarion would stuff a 65 watts mode into that body, then it might be decision time (but still a huge price tag)


----------



## Patriot (Apr 1, 2013)

BeastFlashlight said:


> I still gotta read thru the links above hopefully I find someone in there thanks Patriot



You're welcome but those are only links of XeVision lights that never made it to the market.

With regards to the Polarion, they're pretty much maxed out thermally at 45-50W. They could perhaps use a more powerful system but they'd have to use a thermal step down similar to the FireFox lights. It's seems Polarion has chosen to go the constant output route with reasonable run-time.


----------



## hron61 (Apr 1, 2013)

Polarion hands down...because i own a couple, so they get my vote.

but 8" or less i would say a mac's customs mini hid or mac's mini mini hid...good luck finding one these days though.


----------



## Patriot (Apr 1, 2013)

...or EzNite 10W, Mircrofire 10W, or Boxer24W (right at 8") but again, they're no longer made and are outclassed in most specifications by LED lights.


----------



## BeastFlashlight (Apr 2, 2013)

So basically is it true that HID is a matured technology and LED is an evolving technology? (and LED keeps closing the gap?)

I'll tell you guys the HID light that is the reason for all my questioning, the Magic Fire Scorpion 65W! It is totally hand held size and it's 65 watts! So it has me thinking #1 can I get someone like MacCustom to juiced this baby up with a mod (People are modding LEDs in here all the time), #2 if this 8" long hand held sized host can pack 65W why isn't there another higher quality brand out there with 65W in this size? Where's the 'FF3' quality version of this bigger size at? And if FF4 is juicing up to a 60W burst mode can't I find a mod guy to pack 85W into this host? And by mod I mean totally gut it & change everything in it. It's bigger and a better heat sinking host than FF4, I think if FF4's body can handle 60W than Scorpion body should handle 85W


----------



## Colonel Sanders (Apr 2, 2013)

Here's the reality. I have a FF3 and a Magic Scorpion "40w" and I can assure you that in no way does the MS40 compare to the FF3. By that I mean that it's not even close. They are in two totally different classes. The FF3 blows the MS40 away while being smaller, lighter, and of far higher build quality. And I can tell you that the MS40 does not actually _output_ 40w. The FF3 does (actually about 42w output.)

If you could somehow mod a MS"65w" (I'll believe the 65w when I see it) to a true 85w then you would certainly have a challenge keeping things cool!

My advice is to buy a FF4 and be happy with it. You'll have something built with quality that you know will perform exceptionally and it'll have good re-sale value. :thumbsup:


----------



## BeastFlashlight (Apr 2, 2013)

That's great that u have both thanks for the info. So the MS output rating is clear B.S., now when u say FF3 is better quality material does that mean it would heat sink better even though smaller & lighter? I'm not sure if u mean better quality if dropped, or if certain grades of aluminum breath better & release heat better. I'm really just interested in MS's shell as a host. As far as I knew heat sink potential just came down to volumn of metal, maybe grade of metal also means a lot I'm totally ignorant to this i don't know

Edit
I checked specs and the FF3, FF4 and MS are all 6061 aviation aluminum, with a surface treatment of hardened oxidation. FF4 is 420g without batteries and MS is 800g without. So looks like a solid host. FF4 however does say Waterproof: IPX7,IP67 and MS says nothing of waterproofing

Oh and MacsCustoms shot me down says he don't build HIDs. This is feeling more & more like a dying technology to me


----------



## scout24 (Apr 2, 2013)

With all due respect, calling HID a matured or dying technology seems a bit unwarranted... There is no way to get the sheer output, throw, runtime, etc. with LED's at the moment. Look at some of the beamshot threads and let me know how they compare. Size of your potential market has something to do with it as well. Look back at prices from a few years ago, and what the outputs were compared to today. The wheels may not turn as fast as the LED bandwagon, what with the emitter of the month club, but they are far from a standstill...  As far as a REQUEST for mod work being turned down, you weren't the first, and won't be the last, regardless of who you asked.


----------



## BeastFlashlight (Apr 2, 2013)

I'm glad that I'm wrong I want to be. That was just my guess because getting my LED mods was a breeze and I just peeked into HID recently and find it difficult. The other reason that I was assuming it matured is because HIDs from 3 years ago are still the most sought after (and some discontinued). And because i'm not seeing the watt climb per physical size that I see in the LED lumen climb. And also because in the LED forums if I asked similar questions the problem would be 'Too Many' answers and options. I want to be wrong, I hope I can find a way to get a nice quality 85-100 watt hip sized HID, but all the things I've mentioned ARE what a dying technology looks like.

I mean if u look in the LED forums you'll see posts like this all over "Ahh my head is gonna explode I asked about 1 light and u guys recommended 67!"


----------



## TEEJ (Apr 2, 2013)

I would like to point out that there is a difference between stable and/or matured, and dying.

Dying implies that the technology is being abandoned. It isn't. The performance attributes are being slowly and steadily being overtaken by LEDs, but, the limiting factor, still, is that the plasma in an HID is able to function as a brighter smaller point source for any given reflector diameter...and the hot bright glowing gas part is inside a capsule - but not touching the electronics. 

In an LED, the LED ITSELF is glowing to emit the light, so it can't get as hot w/o destroying the electronics...as the hot part IS part of the electronics. 

It takes a lot to compensate for that limitation as a light source. So, we have LED lights that can compete with HID for throw, and we have LED lights that can compete for total lumens....but, not both at the same time.

When we have an LED light that can combine the total lumens and cd, THEN we will see the HID niche weakened...unless analogous progress is made in HID technology too, etc.

(Arms races in that case make us all winners...)


So, if you are able to just accept that LEDs win on run time and portability, and, can match the throw, but not the flood, or, the flood, but not the throw of the HIDs...you'll have a clear picture of when one, or the other, will make the most sense...for what YOU use them for.


----------



## BeastFlashlight (Apr 2, 2013)

Ok, i get the LED limitations a little clearer now. I'm shocked HID has such a smaller following and abundancy than LED. Way too much "If you can find it" going on with HID recommendations. Ok I def want a good powerful HID now. Maybe I'll have to increase my size limit to the size of the about the TI-L70 and reserve my HID use to back pack outings


----------



## Patriot (Apr 2, 2013)

BeastFlashlight said:


> I want to be wrong, I hope I can find a way to get a nice quality 85-100 watt hip sized HID, but all the things I've mentioned ARE what a dying technology looks like.



I don't want to burst the bubble, but that's not going to happen. Regardless of the manufacturer, you still need a certain amount of thermal mass to deal with the output. Since most producers of sealed HID lights correctly scale the light to run continuously after start up (exception with the FF4) the wattage will be appropriate to the size. 3-4lb aluminum lights will handle 45-50w and not much more. You can go to a plastic housing HID like the Ti Innovations 35/70 if you just want good quality and drop your size requirements. 

With regards to gutting an existing light like the MagicFire/Scorpion, the problem is finding quality components and electronics to fit that host and finding someone to figure it all out. I can just about guarantee that Mac wouldn't touch something like this with a 10 foot pole. Even if he did it would be far more cost effective to buy a PH50 or AELight35/50. I can't imagine going this route however, given that the FF4 would seemingly fit nearly all of your requirements.


...and just to back up what Teej stated. None of us know what you're trying to accomplish with this light so it's quite possible that there's a LED light out there that would do everything you needed it to or more.


----------



## BeastFlashlight (Apr 2, 2013)

What I'm trying to accomplish is to keep pushing the bounds for impressive throw power when out in the great wide open! It's funny when I first joined this forum I was in love with flood (like a TM26) and as I went on I started to dig throw more. 

My problem has been my size restraints, perhaps some desires require a backpack. I finally found and read a lot of threads that i was looking for. I think I found the king, the MBS-410 Maxabeam is that the gold standard? Roughly the same size as TI-L70? So based on what I've been researching i believe the TI-L70 is my economical answer and the MBS-410 is my no holds barred, spare no expense answer. Thanks for everyone's help everyone is a great help, I learned that my size restraints were unreasonable, and the LED vs HID electronics heat factor was a cool piece of knowledge. I know now why LED is not on the verge of pushing HID off to the side, thanks everyone.


----------



## Colonel Sanders (Apr 2, 2013)

TEEJ and Patriot said it best and there's not much of worth I can add but I'll add a comment or two based on my experience anyway. 

I am fortunate enough to have a Barn Burner (basically a higher output TI L70), for example. When I need to do some SERIOUS lighting and need something comfortable to carry, it is what I use. It throws (around 900,000 [email protected]!), it floods (around 8600 lumens!), the color temp and rendering is fantastic compared to most LEDs, the beam is adjustable, it has a carry strap, a carry case, it's not very heavy, IMO, and can mount on a tri-pod. Oh, and it'll do this for about an hour on a charge. And yes, it is an old light but I'm sure Xeray could build it better today than they did back then.

So the question to ponder is this....what LED light can in any way shape form or fashion throw near a million cd while outputing 8000+ lumens for an hour and maintain it's output throughout? There's not one...not even if you halved the criteria. 400,000 cd and 4000 lumens from an LED? Nope, doesn't exist. How about half it again? 200,000 cd and 2000 lumens? Not that I'm aware of.

I agree that it is mostly a mature technology but that's not to say that further refining won't be made. But there's not as much untapped potential as with LEDs. That said, I don't see an LED light being able to do what the FF4 will do at it's size for a very, very, very long time..._if ever_.


----------



## Colonel Sanders (Apr 2, 2013)

*"What I'm trying to accomplish is to keep pushing the bounds for impressive throw power when out in the great wide open!"*

Beast, I own a Maxabeam and for what you just described in the above statement, this is what you need. No, the L70 is not in the same solar system for throw compared to the Maxabeam...not even the Barn Burner is. There is no comparison between short arcs and long arcs if we're talking throw. Oh, and leave LEDs out of the throw conversation if we're considering something like a Maxabeam.

So, just cut straight to the ending and get a nice used Maxabeam. Sometimes they can be had for much less than you might at first expect.


----------



## BeastFlashlight (Apr 2, 2013)

Awesome thanks. Maxabeam is gonna be a goal of mine then. And the crazy thing is, as big as it is compared to an 8" hand held light it's still only 3.4 lbs lol, not like it's 30 lbs. Yeah I think I'll abandon ship on a bunch of mediocre purchases now and just save up for the heavyweight champ, and then be done with it


----------



## BeastFlashlight (Apr 2, 2013)

I can't find the candela on the MBS-410 do u know it?


----------



## Colonel Sanders (Apr 3, 2013)

I measured mine at well over 5 million...think maybe closer to 6. Sorry, been awhile. :thinking:


----------



## Colonel Sanders (Apr 3, 2013)

You will find this enlightening :candle: ... http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...ated-Short-Arc-amp-HID-spotlight-Lux-readings


----------



## BeastFlashlight (Apr 3, 2013)

......


----------



## Patriot (Apr 3, 2013)

GenII MB's were 6-7.5M CP while GenIII MB's are up to 12M CP. Just remember that the light is all throw and the bulb lumens are only about 1600L

Also, if you're primarily interested in throw you'll want to check out the DEFT-X LED


----------



## Colonel Sanders (Apr 3, 2013)

*"GenII MB's were 6-7.5M CP while GenIII MB's are up to 12M CP. Just remember that the light is all throw and the bulb lumens are only about 1600L"*

Yep, throw is Mr Maxabeam's game. Oh, and do buy a good set of binoculars to complement him.

Gen IIIs up to 12M? I couldn't remember what my testing said when I said 5-6M. I need to test again and write it down this time.

*"LOLOLOLOL 6,000,000 OMG!!!"*

See why LED lights need not come out to play? This is BB guns v/s Star Wars here.


----------



## BeastFlashlight (Apr 3, 2013)

Yes I did purchase a Deft-X I can't wait till they come in. With the Maxabeam it's not even just the 6,000,000cd that's awesome it's the adjustable beam too. The Deft-X is 900,000cd, so u can significantly widen the maxabeam throw down to 1.8 million cd and you'd have a floody beam that throws 2x the Deft-X now that's some power!


----------



## BeastFlashlight (Apr 3, 2013)

Hey why are u guys saying it's nothing but throw? The specs say the beam adjusts from 1 degree to 40 degrees! Best of both worlds


----------



## FRITZHID (Apr 3, 2013)

BeastFlashlight said:


> Hey why are u guys saying it's nothing but throw? The specs say the beam adjusts from 1 degree to 40 degrees! Best of both worlds



Once you have one in your hand and play with out, you'll understand that throw is MB's game since in the flood mode MB is not that impressive, due to low total bulb lumens v. Hid.
My Handsun will whomp a MB in flood, semi-flood mode, its not until the MB's beam is less then 4° that it starts beating out my 55w version, but tighten up the focus and WOW MB rocks!


----------



## BeastFlashlight (Apr 3, 2013)

Ah ok. I like throw more than flood now but i'm talking about pure flood vs throw not a floody throw, when I say 'throw' i'm talking about a wider range of beam angle than people might think, i'm talking about a stock TN31 beam and tighter not a laser. So I wonder what HID is king at a beam that's wider than Maxabeam. But still 4 degrees is great, if Maxabeam is a premium light at 4 degrees or less (and poor above 4degrees) that's good enough for me.


----------



## FRITZHID (Apr 3, 2013)

Well then, MB is the poop when it comes to throwing like a laser! I love mine, but when I really really want to light something up as bright as day, at less then 2 miles, I bust out my Handsun. 5500 to 8300 lms crushes the MB. If you'd like, I can take some comparative photos and send them to you.


----------



## BeastFlashlight (Apr 3, 2013)

Ok that would be great!

Can I see beamshots of the 75W Hand-Sun?


----------



## Patriot (Apr 3, 2013)

BeastFlashlight said:


> Ah ok. I like throw more than flood now but i'm talking about pure flood vs throw not a floody throw, when I say 'throw' i'm talking about a wider range of beam angle than people might think, i'm talking about a stock TN31 beam and tighter not a laser. So I wonder what HID is king at a beam that's wider than Maxabeam. But still 4 degrees is great, if Maxabeam is a premium light at 4 degrees or less (and poor above 4degrees) that's good enough for me.



4 degrees? I'm pretty sure it's a 1 degree beam. The flood pattern or 40 degree beam is really uninspiring that why we say it's "all throw." You can use it wide angle in a pinch but honestly you'd be far better off with a Zebralight 6330 or TM11 in your pocket. Not only is the MB not all that bright, relatively speaking, but the beam is super ringy with a huge donut in the middle. You'd have to purchase their freznel or special lens, whatever they call it, to get an acceptable beam from the MB.


----------



## BeastFlashlight (Apr 3, 2013)

Yeah I'm thinking that a (Edit) 2 degree beam width minimum is for me, maybe something is out there with that beam and maybe about 2,000,000cd, search continues. A 65W Polarion would be the best I hope they decide to make one (but of course that would defeat their portablility purpose)


----------



## Patriot (Apr 3, 2013)

BeastFlashlight said:


> Yeah I'm thinking that a (Edit) 2 degree beam width minimum is for me, maybe something is out there with that beam and maybe about 2,000,000cd, search continues. A 65W Polarion would be the best I hope they decide to make one (but of course that would defeat their portablility purpose)




The only other thing I might suggest is to avoid getting fixated on a number or data point like "2M lux" or "65w." I'm not calling you new, just saying that it's easy for me to get a number in my head which sometimes causes me to overlook some obvious choices that would work perfectly well for my applications. The MB is going to have a pretty great beam from about 1-4 degrees. It's only when you get it really wide that it loses its magic.


----------



## BeastFlashlight (Apr 3, 2013)

Feel free to call me new I'm as green as it gets, i know very very little about all this


----------



## Colonel Sanders (Apr 4, 2013)

*"The MB is going to have a pretty great beam from about 1-4 degrees. It's only when you get it really wide that it loses its magic."*

Right, I was reading along and was going to say that. The MB beam looks great at pinpoint focus and still looks just fine as you go a little wider and a little wider until you reach a certain point where the doughnut hole starts to pop up...then it looks like poop from there on out as you go wider.

It's not that it can go floody, it's that you can stretch the hotspot out wider if that makes sense.


----------



## BeastFlashlight (Apr 4, 2013)

Ok that was very helpful. So this is what I'm thinking, the Deft-X is 1.4 degrees. If when I get my Deft-X I am happy with the beam angle than CLEARLY the Maxabeam is a premium beam at 1.4 from what you are saying, so sounds like if I like my Deft-X it is a huge thumbs up for Maxabeam!! I am gonna order a Hand-Sun it sounds great. Maxabeam, because of it's price tag will become more of a future goal of mine, maybe next tax return season I'll be able to get it, thanks these responses are great.


----------



## Keithnielsen (Apr 7, 2013)

BeastFlashlight said:


> Can anybody throw out a quick top 3 list for a super quality hand held sized HID, assuming that price is not an issue? Size limit being about 8" long, body up to 2-3" thick, maybe head can be a bit wider. I know FF3 is a good one. Other than that I don't know which ones are junk and which ones have a great reputation.



Look at the Polarion Abyss!


----------



## Keithnielsen (Apr 7, 2013)

BeastFlashlight said:


> Ok thanks guys, i just read this I will be checking those links out later on. I do now see that the Abyss is over 8", i was kind of going with a ball park length but they look pretty portable. The thing about Polarion (I think) is that u will pay thru the nose for top of the line quality but u are still just getting 45 watts. Similar to paying top dollar for Elzetta LED but only getting 500 lumens. But u can still get a pretty damn decent 500 lumen LED for much less.
> 
> So what I'm hoping for is a pretty damn good quality (but short of Polarion, and far from junk) hand held HID as powerful as I can get it, maybe 85-100 watts, or 65 if that would be hand held limit. It would be lower quality than Polarion but more light! I would love to find someone who does good HID mods in here too and give them a solid host to do it with. I still gotta read thru the links above hopefully I find someone in there thanks Patriot



I dout that it is possible to put a 65 or higher watt light into such a short body. The problem is heat dissapation!


----------

