# Burnt Protected 18650 Batteries



## ernsanada (Jan 24, 2009)

I just received an order for 2 Protected 18650 Batteries.

This is how the package arrived.

















The package came in this bag.






There was only 1 battery.

Has this happened to anybody?


----------



## jzmtl (Jan 24, 2009)

Maybe they threw out the other one? Really weird, maybe the protection circuit shorted?


----------



## Mr Happy (Jan 24, 2009)

Holy crap! 

That suggests it is not a good idea to ship such batteries loose in a padded envelope. Who knows what kind of mechanical stresses and shocks can be applied to the outside of the package in transit that might crush the batteries?


----------



## chewy78 (Jan 24, 2009)

that dont look good


----------



## Norm (Jan 24, 2009)

Worse than that it is lucky that a whole batch of mail didn't catch fire during a flight which may have bought the whole aircraft down,
This had the possibility of becoming a much larger incident with buildings or aircraft and lives in danger.
Norm


----------



## Mr Happy (Jan 24, 2009)

Norm said:


> Worse than that it is lucky that a whole batch of mail didn't catch fire during a flight which may have bought the whole aircraft down,
> This had the possibility of becoming a much larger incident with buildings or aircraft and lives in danger.
> Norm


Well, quite. It is against postal regulations to send incendiary devices through the mail. It would not be beyond possibility for someone to get sued or prosecuted over such an incident.


----------



## Jay T (Jan 24, 2009)

Was the fire from inside the package or from the outside?

If a package burst into flames during shipping I don't think they would just slap a sorry sticker on it and deliver it. I could see some men in suits showing up on your doorstep before the package would be released.


----------



## Toaster (Jan 24, 2009)

Norm said:


> Worse than that it is lucky that a whole batch of mail didn't catch fire during a flight which may have bought the whole aircraft down,
> This had the possibility of becoming a much larger incident with buildings or aircraft and lives in danger.
> Norm



+1. But it must have happened during ground transport. If it caught fire in the air I'm sure FBI would have been the ones delivering the package, not USPS.


----------



## Fallingwater (Jan 24, 2009)

Mr Happy said:


> Well, quite. It is against postal regulations to send incendiary devices through the mail. It would not be beyond possibility for someone to get sued or prosecuted over such an incident.


A LiIon cell is not an incendiary device. Do you have any idea how slow things would get if lithium cells and batteries had to be shipped exclusively by sea or by road?

Man, that cell did a real number on that package. Perhaps it was thrown around real hard? Some postal services are known for the lack of care with which they treat their packages.

Hmm. Seems to have burned the package only where it itself was... had it blown up / vented with flame the whole thing would have been reduced to a cinder, possibly including the vehicle the cell was in when the accident happened.


----------



## Mr Happy (Jan 24, 2009)

Fallingwater said:


> A LiIon cell is not an incendiary device. Do you have any idea how slow things would get if lithium cells and batteries had to be shipped exclusively by sea or by road?


Maybe you missed the sardonic tone in my comment, but nevertheless that does look very much like a device that incended. There is plenty of evidence of charred paper and burning there.

If you were taking such batteries on a plane you would be required to pack them in a secure and properly designed container so that they cannot accidentally short out or be damaged. Slinging a couple of them into a padded envelope does not count.

I'm curious: what is the usual way these batteries are shipped from a reputable vendor? Do they arrive in a rigid plastic battery holder, or is it common to ship them loose and unprotected?


----------



## skillet (Jan 24, 2009)

I've received batteries shipped from USA and NonUSA vendors with no problems.. This is surely a very isolated incident... And with out any facts, speculation, well.... is just that..


----------



## kramer5150 (Jan 24, 2009)

merely speculating...

It could have gotten dropped/smashed in shipping and caused the protection circuit +V to short to -V. Theres nothing more than thin heat shrink separating +V from -V.

Thank goodness you are OK.


----------



## Mr Happy (Jan 24, 2009)

"Isolated incident" is never an excuse or justification for something going wrong. The first time a space shuttle blew up it was an isolated incident. It is necessary to examine the potential ways in which something could go wrong and then put designs in place to safeguard against those failures.

A protected lithium ion cell has a potential short circuit built right into it as a metal strip running between the positive and negative ends, as noted above. And a short of one of these cells is definitely not a good thing.

I can foresee a day that the sale and use of individual lithium ion cells outside of pre-manufactured packs will be prohibited unless more respect and care is given to these potentially dangerous devices.

This event is not something to be shrugged off lightly. It is something severely dangerous and worrying.


----------



## Fallingwater (Jan 24, 2009)

Mr Happy said:


> Maybe you missed the sardonic tone in my comment, but nevertheless that does look very much like a device that incended. There is plenty of evidence of charred paper and burning there.


I can see that myself, I just meant that LiIon cells, while capable of causing a fire, aren't incendiary devices - i.e. not meant to be used for that purpose. Sorry if my comment came out as hostile, I didn't mean it to. 



> I'm curious: what is the usual way these batteries are shipped from a reputable vendor? Do they arrive in a rigid plastic battery holder, or is it common to ship them loose and unprotected?


I'm curious about this myself. Since a burning cell can conceivably bring down a plane, not to mention set fire to post offices and such, I'm thinking some form of flameproof shipping package should be necessary.


----------



## Illum (Jan 24, 2009)

tsk tsk tsk...

gee, more reason for the FAA to ban lithium rechargeable batteries now...
this is the first [unconfirmed] case AFAIK of cells that apparently went  in open circuit I've seen on CPF.

 subscribed


----------



## Fallingwater (Jan 24, 2009)

I agree that it's probably the protection circuit. It got whacked hard, and either it shorted or the positive strip got out of alignment with the insulator and that shorted.
Ironic that the protection circuit, which is supposed to prevent fires and accidents, probably caused this...


----------



## shadowjk (Jan 24, 2009)

At risk of igniting a flamewar, out of interest, what brand were these batteries?


----------



## Metatron (Jan 25, 2009)

damn, i hope the compass still works


----------



## Norm (Jan 25, 2009)

kramer5150 said:


> merely speculating...
> 
> It could have gotten dropped/smashed in shipping and caused the protection circuit +V to short to -V. Theres nothing more than thin heat shrink separating +V from -V.
> 
> Thank goodness you are OK.


Agreed I was just thinking the same thing, I'd say the protection strip down the battery shorted and got hot enough to blow like a fuse and being buried in a pile of other mail there would have been insufficient air for the fire to get going, probably smouldered until it smothered, otherwise if it had have vented with flame it would have really started something.
Norm

PS This probably wouldn't have happened with an unprotected cell


----------



## Alan B (Jan 25, 2009)

Aircraft automatic fire retardant systems have been found to be effective on Li-Ion cells. It is the primaries that don't go out.

The vendor who shipped those did not package them safely.

-- Alan


----------



## csshih (Jan 25, 2009)

oh woww... usps even gave you a "sorry" letter.


----------



## kramer5150 (Jan 25, 2009)

shadowjk said:


> At risk of igniting a flamewar, out of interest, what brand were these batteries?




black, shiny silver label with red trim... looks like an AW


----------



## Black Rose (Jan 25, 2009)

csshih said:


> oh woww... usps even gave you a "sorry" letter.


I think that the generic letter is hilarious, considering the damage.

It looks like part of it says "We hope this incident didn't inconvenience you."

Burned up battery with one missing....nope that's not an inconvenience 



kramer5150 said:


> black, shiny silver label with red trim... looks like an AW


Yep. Now I'm really curious to know how this happened.


----------



## Metatron (Jan 25, 2009)

Black Rose said:


> I think that the generic letter is hilarious, considering the damage.
> 
> It looks like part of it says "We hope this incident didn't inconvenience you."
> 
> ...


i am thinking that the postal service has nothing to do with this, they only think they do, the batts vented. i think that if the postal service found out that that parcel was the cause and not the result, well, things may just be different.


----------



## csshih (Jan 25, 2009)

well, at least we know it's not a DX package.


----------



## Youfoundnemo (Jan 25, 2009)

Soooo wheres AW on this topic?


----------



## mdocod (Jan 25, 2009)

HMMMMM....


----------



## ernsanada (Jan 25, 2009)

I posted this thread to see if this incident has happened to anyone else.

I have a feeling that this is a hopefully "once in a lifetime fluke". This is the first time that this has happened to me. I've ordered many rechargeable lithiums from many different dealers from here in the USA to abroad.

I was just wondering what could have possibly happened.


----------



## Fallingwater (Jan 25, 2009)

Metatron said:


> i am thinking that the postal service has nothing to do with this, they only think they do, the batts vented. i think that if the postal service found out that that parcel was the cause and not the result, well, things may just be different.


First point: it's unlikely that the cell just up and vented on its own accord. When lithium secondaries go, it's usually during charging or during improper use (or just during use if defective, see the infamous laptop fires). I'd be *really* surprised if that cell vented just sitting there. 

Second point: I don't think the cell(s) vented.. Have you seen videos of lithium secondaries burning? They don't just peacefully emit flame like a matchstick - they send out a foot-long jet of flame that has more in common with a blowtorch. Had they vented, that package would have been burned to oblivion, along with whatever other mail was on/nearby - it wouldn't just have a localized burn where the cell is. The event would have most likely destroyed large amounts of mail, vehicles or both, and started an investigation.

What I'm guessing happened there is that the protection circuit or the strip shorted, and the amount of current flowing heated stuff enough to set fire to the plastic/paper of the package; then the PTC blew, and the cell stopped sending current into the short. At that point someone probably noticed the smoke and smothered the non-lithium fire.


----------



## bigdaddy (Jan 25, 2009)

Looks dangerous to me, I've got 2 pieces of 18650 at home now, keeping Li-Ion batteries at home is like keeping mini dynamites. :green:


----------



## EngrPaul (Jan 25, 2009)

To know the reason, there needs to be some disassembly.

I would think the battery had some sort of near-short that was nudged into a full short during shipping.

I'm not too concerned about my cells sitting quitely on the shelf, but I would take caution how I transport them.


----------



## CathastrophiX (Jan 25, 2009)

Send it back to AW so he can check it out.


----------



## AW (Jan 25, 2009)

OK. Here is what I see here. The OP ( a returning customer who has ordered from me times before. Thanks! Ernie ) ordered two P18650s from me on 8th Jan. The packaged delivered was burnt and charred with a note of apology from USPS. No doubt there the package had been subject to high temp. released by the LiCO 18650 inside the package. I don't know what happened to the second battery because it is not there. Whether the 18650 in the package had vented or shorted? I 'll tell you my observation in 3). Here is the chronology of events as noted:

1) Order was shipped on 8th Jan. The two P18650s were packed in such a way the electrodes won't touch each other inside a 70x90mm zip lock bag ( to seal out moisture ) and then a layer of bubble wrap. They were then mailed inside a padded envelop stamped ' FRAGILE ' on the front. Any member who has ordered from me know how they are packed like and I have never received any complaints from buyers about the packaging.

2) The package traveled in an aircraft half way around the world and cleared the US Customs into the country. If the incident took place inside the cargo hold, the smoke detector will certainly go off and the flight crew will have to log and report the incident which you 'll see it in the news. Secondly, there is no way a burnt package like the one shown in post#1 will pass through the stringent examination from the US Customs.

3) The package was handed over to USPS or USPS contract carriers who then delivered it with other mail packages to the destination post office. How the package is handled en-route is a subject matter here. I have heard stories about how mails were handled by the contract carriers in the news so anything can happen there. I am not putting a blame to anyone but it does look like the package did survive after traveling over a thousand miles when the incident took place in the last leg of the journey. Let's take a look again at the battery. The battery did not vent - a full venting will blow the top and the whole anode including the vent disc / PTC off. I can see from the pictures that the battery casing is still intact which indicates a 'short' is the culprit. The tremendous amount of heat released during the short melted the plastic packaging materials and charred the envelop. If it is the electrode type short, it will be protected by the protection pcb. In this case, it looks like the battery is subjected to some high impact and the pcb connecting strip is displaced causing the cell casing short. The mechanical thermal protection PTC inside the cell cuts off the action ( 10A load / < 10 second cut off point ) to prevent a complete meltdown. A full blown vent will flame for 20-30 seconds with a 18650 size LiCO battery and burn the whole package to ashes. I suspect the package was handled roughly or some heavier packages were placed on top on it causing the incident during a bumpy ride. 

4) The burnt package was finally delivered with a note of apology from USPS. I don't think you 'll get such a polite note if something illegal or dangerous has been shipped resulting a burnt package. The CN22 was marked clearly that they are rechargeable batteries inside. If I am the receiving end of a self-igniting package here in my country, I am quite certain there will be a citation/ warning or even a knock on the door from authorities.


Is this an isolation incident? Maybe or maybe not. I don't know how other battery sellers ship/pack their orders. I myself have shipped thousands of packages around the world for the past few years and this is the first reported incident of a burnt package. I believe I have taken reasonable steps to pack the batteries ( zip lock bags to keep out moisture, bubble wrap for cushioning, padded envelop + Fragile marking, separate packing of different size / type batteries ). Are there ways of improvement? Certainly. I 'll think of a new way to beef up the packing to prevent this type of things to happen again. Any constructive inputs are welcome.



Hi Ernie,

Please let me know what I should do. To resend your order or issue a full refund so you can order from a dealer stateside ( if that makes you feel more comfortable about the shipping arrangement).

Regards,
AW


----------



## Alan B (Jan 25, 2009)

bigdaddy said:


> Looks dangerous to me, I've got 2 pieces of 18650 at home now, keeping Li-Ion batteries at home is like keeping mini dynamites. :green:



Padded envelopes are not treated well by the postal systems of the world. They get a lot of abuse and are not suitable for all content.

Batteries are energy sources, and good ones are capable of delivering their energy quickly. They must be treated properly. Clearly this one was mistreated and was inadequately protected against the rigors of shipment that it received.

It is interesting that a protection circuit, by bringing both polarities of conductor into close proximity, actually increases the risk of shorting the cell when physically abused.

I have received Li-Ion D cells in similar packaging. 

-- Alan


----------



## EngrPaul (Jan 25, 2009)

AW,

I would love to see a battery holder available for 2 18650's. Is there such a thing? Like the ones for AA batteries:

http://www.thomasdistributing.com/at-bh-1.htmhttp://www.thomasdistributing.com/batteryholder-index.htm

You could offer them for a couple bucks, with the benefit of better protection in transit. 

I know personally, I'd like to have a better storage container for 18650's. Currently I use a small 2x3" food container.


----------



## Alan B (Jan 25, 2009)

EngrPaul said:


> AW,
> 
> I would love to see a battery holder available for 2 18650's. Is there such a thing? Like the ones for AA batteries:
> 
> ...



Plastic cases or tubes or even cardboard tubes could help a lot.

-- Alan


----------



## CathastrophiX (Jan 25, 2009)

EngrPaul said:


> AW,
> 
> I would love to see a battery holder available for 2 18650's. Is there such a thing? .


 
Yes, I use these: http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.18074


----------



## snakebite (Jan 25, 2009)

maybe the package got mangled in a sorting machine?
i agree this could have been much worse.if this had gone off in an area with lots of combustibles(other mail)this could have been a disaster.
can you take pics of the cell at different angles?
i am looking for dents.


----------



## Mr Happy (Jan 25, 2009)

Something bad is happening to overseas mail arriving into the US. 

I fairly frequently order things from Amazon UK, which are either shipped from somewhere in the UK or from the Netherlands. About a year ago they would arrive in four or five days in perfect condition.

Recently (in the last few months), packages have been taking 2-3 weeks to arrive, and they have been nearly wrecked on delivery. Packages have arrived crushed and scuffed and looking as if they have been used as a football.

Books and DVDs can survive this abuse (Amazon use sturdy packaging), but something fragile would certainly have a risk of damage.

For batteries I would strongly suggest the use of a rigid plastic battery holder of the kind someone linked to above.


----------



## Black Rose (Jan 25, 2009)

EngrPaul said:


> AW,
> 
> I would love to see a battery holder available for 2 18650's. Is there such a thing?


DX sells Ultrafire branded plastic ones (SKU 18074 - see link in post #37) that can hold 2 18650's, 1 18650 and 2 CR123's, or 4 CR123's.

Might be something to look into.


----------



## EngrPaul (Jan 25, 2009)

CathastrophiX said:


> Yes, I use these: http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.18074


 
Thanks for the link.

For shipping cells, I think rounded corners would be better.

Based on a comment on the page about the hinge, the durability of this particular box is questionable. :shrug:

The cell holders from TD seem to have long lasting living hinges... YMMV :tinfoil:


----------



## Juggernaut (Jan 25, 2009)

Great unprotected is not safer then protected “in this circumstance at least:shakehead, I always wondered about this flaw with the protected cells.”, and we are probably going to have to spend extra money on a “safer” way to ship these, if the shipping companies would just do their jobs, companies like AW wouldn’t have to spend more time and money on fixing other peoples problems:tsk:. It’s not our fault that shipping can be so ignorant:drunk:, I mean what if that package contained some crystal heirloom worth thousands of dollars:duck:? It would most definitely been crushed:mecry:. You might say the person who put it in the mail should have better packaged it, but that’s like saying someone who is shot and killed in an alleyway should have been warring a bulletproof vest:thinking:. The culprit is not the man who got lost and wondered down the ally, it’s the man who shot him:scowl:! Lets hope in the future shipping companies will put two plus two together “Fragile = handle with care”:shakehead.


----------



## Dave. (Jan 25, 2009)

How about the kind of mailers Amazon and the likes use for sending books/dvds/cds? Something like this:

http://www.mediamailing.com/content/view/17/29/

They are surprisingly strong when folded together and provided the cells were well wrapped in bubblewrap inside they would be in their strongest alignment possible side-by-side. Also, the more box-like packaging would lend itself to better treatment as they will just be stacked up with other mail of the same type. You could reinforce alongside the cells with stiff cardboard for packages that contained only one or two cells if needbe.


----------



## Illum (Jan 25, 2009)

Juggernaut said:


> 「Fragile = handle with care」:shakehead.



given the amount of load the post office has to work with plus the decrement in employee count...these people are overworked, incapacitated, and in some cases [for county workers] rather underpaid. 
From what I can observe from my own packages, rare cases "fragile" just means the package gets tossed and not kicked, thats all that really means. 

aside from batteries, word of advice: do not ship your glass framed pictures overseas, "fragile" doesn't mean a darn thing around the holidays


----------



## Mr Happy (Jan 25, 2009)

Illum_the_nation said:


> given the amount of load the post office has to work with plus the decrement in employee count...these people are overworked, incapacitated, and in some cases [for county workers] rather underpaid.
> From what I can observe from my own packages, rare cases "fragile" just means the package gets tossed and not kicked, thats all that really means.
> 
> aside from batteries, word of advice: do not ship your glass framed pictures overseas, "fragile" doesn't mean a darn thing around the holidays


I have a suspicion that the extra two weeks delay in my overseas packages arriving, and the poor condition they arrive in, is not due to the postal service, but more likely due to the packages sitting around in a customs warehouse somewhere. Unlike the postal service, I do not think the customs service is very accountable, nor do I think they have a vested interest in the careful handling of packages.


----------



## kramer5150 (Jan 25, 2009)

FWIW, USPS has small corrugated cardboard boxes. I use these for all my shipments. They are part of the service, and cost the same as if you were to rig up your own similar sized box. I don't think I have ever shipped anything in a padded envelope. DX also does this for cells and small items.

My local USPS is REALLY good at inspecting packaging prior to receiving. They look it over and if it is not adequately packed they will reject it, and make me re-pack it in one of their boxes.


----------



## Lightcrazycanuck (Jan 25, 2009)

So what's the moral of this story?


----------



## Ziemas (Jan 25, 2009)

Lightcrazycanuck said:


> So what's the moral of this story?


Don't panic at one off events?


----------



## Black Rose (Jan 25, 2009)

Very interesting how the different postal services handle packages.

To date I have made 3 purchases from DX, who also utilize Hong Kong Post, and have not had any issues with regards to damaged packages. 

Every order I have placed that has been shipped from Hong Kong (with the tracking option) has arrived within 3 or 4 days of leaving Hong Kong and arrives in immaculate condition.

Ernie lives a lot closer to the source than I do and is close to a major urban centre (a bit of an understatement  ), yet my packages always arrive in 3 to 4 days whereas his took just over 2 weeks. 

I know mail volume and customs clearance (as alluded to in Mr. Happy's post) play into things, but it seems odd that it takes so long.


----------



## astrotec (Jan 25, 2009)

talking a look at the posts and what AW and ernsanada has posted in regard to this, from a "postmortem" standpoint it appears that usps machinery had a hungry "jones" for this package and caused a minor fire at the point of "jam". the machinery also avulsed one of the cells ... it would be interesting to back track this through your postal carrier. if you are friendly with him as i am with mine... he can give you some inside info as to who to talk to and find out ... the way they go about this now, absolves them from any liability. if insurance is in place then all would be well. 

AW's willingness to resolve a problem that is not his, Speaks Very Loudly to his customer service values. AW I will be ordering from you soon, yes because of the way you are willing to step up. I like to do business with good people. This shows you are "good people. 
my humble two cents worth.

a.t.


----------



## Kestrel (Jan 25, 2009)

AW said:


> Let's take a look again at the battery. The battery did not vent - a full venting will blow the top and the whole anode including the vent disc / PTC off. I can see from the pictures that the battery casing is still intact which indicates a 'short' is the culprit. The tremendous amount of heat released during the short melted the plastic packaging materials and charred the envelop. If it is the electrode type short, it will be protected by the protection pcb. In this case, it looks like the battery is subjected to some high impact and the pcb connecting strip is displaced causing the cell casing short ....
> Regards,
> AW


Although I'm only a newbie in the rechargeable battery dept, I would like to point out that the above forensic analysis may not apply - perhaps we might have seen some of the above visual evidence in the second battery that is now lost? Just an idea.:thinking:


snakebite said:


> maybe the package got mangled in a sorting machine?


I think that this is a very good possibility, accounting for the severe mechanical damage that would be necessary. It would explain the 'guilt' that USPS would have??
<<holy crap, that's jammed in the machine & it's starting to smoke!!! Make sure we include the apology letter>>


astrotec said:


> AW's willingness to resolve a problem that is not his, Speaks Very Loudly to his customer service values. AW I will be ordering from you soon, yes because of the way you are willing to step up. I like to do business with good people. This shows you are "good people.
> my humble two cents worth.
> a.t.


Absolutely. From what I read on these forums, great customer service and support, consistently. The only LiIon cells that I will be purchasing.
My very humble 1.5 cents worth.


----------



## Mr Happy (Jan 26, 2009)

I just this morning received another package mailed from Europe. In spite of a thick and heavy cardboard mailer being used, the package was still crushed and the contents damaged on arrival.

I would suggest for anyone sending things to the USA by international mail that they should use uncrushable bullet-proof packaging. :tinfoil:


----------



## kramer5150 (Jan 26, 2009)

Lightcrazycanuck said:


> So what's the moral of this story?



In light of the last post, no how much you try and idiot proof something there will always be a bigger idiot.


----------



## jsalmika (Feb 2, 2012)

This has been fortunately a relatively quiet thread...

Anyway a perhaps not even padded(?) envelope containing two 18650 batteries have been self-inflammated in our international airport. If they were what I ordered from Hong Kong they were protected Trustfire Flames - but you'll never know... The local postal carrier sent me this picture (edited a bit by me), I told them to destroy the batteries and opened an after-sales case today...


----------

