# High CRI LED vs. Good Incan?



## bmcgators98 (Aug 14, 2010)

So I really want another HDS light. I have been looking at the High CRI. I currently have a Custom 170 Clicky. My question is how does a LED with a high CRI compare to an quality incan? I have looked the beam shots of the HDS but they are were compared to other LEDs. How would a p60 incan look in comparison? 

Thanks


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## Chucula (Aug 14, 2010)

I was going to post the same question---How does SSC P4 high cri compares to a stock P60?


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## abarth_1200 (Aug 14, 2010)

I was out taking more beamshots last night and messed them up, i got a new camera and forget to set WB, but the incan P60 has no where near as much flood or illuminating power, the P60 just threw a very small spot on the trees about 100 yards away, my High Cri Clicky managed to light up the surrounding 60 yards and put a bigger spot on the tree, It really blew the P60 away even with the fact that it was an incan, tint was very orange (batteries had about 10 mins runtime already) and dull looking compared to the High Cri

I am wanting to get some good beamshots, maybe later tonight, it doesnt get dark for another 2 hours, with fresh batteries and WB set to daylight.


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## flashfiend (Aug 14, 2010)

Similar question but different LED. How does the sst-90 3000k (CRI 83) compare to the incans. I didn't like the tint of a Mac EDC sst-50 4500k (I assume CRI 70) and those LEDs are considered warm. Indeed the color seemed warmer but the light brownish tint didn't really seem to increase the color rendition. Those w/ the sst-90 3000k please reply and post (w/ beamshots comparing it with incan if possible). Thanks


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## abarth_1200 (Aug 14, 2010)

I wouldnt know but the Seoul P4 High Cri has a rating of 93 which is pretty high, the lower the temp the warmer it looks it doesnt mean it will have a higher cri


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## Tekno_Cowboy (Aug 16, 2010)

The High-CRI P4's would rate about halfway between a P60 lamp and a stock WC-bin (cool and almost bluish) Cree in my book. I actually prefer them to incans because they don't tend to color everything orangish-yellow like an incan tends to. I'd say they're about even for rendering colors with a standard-output incan, and just a hair less accurate than a very-high-output incan.

I'd put the Nichia H1 High-CRI offerings above pretty much everything but the sun itself.


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## pjandyho (Aug 16, 2010)

If you are comparing high CRI to incand, theoretically incand wins by providing a CRI of 100 but that is in theory. In the actual practical part, I find that not all incand gives you nice natural colors. I have been comparing all my incands to the high CRI for the pass one month and I realized that some incand burns whiter than others, even for the same model. Here are some examples based on all the Surefires I have,

1. P60 (3 units) - one seem to burn whiter than the other two but all three still looks a little orangey compared to high CRI. High CRI wins in brightness, color rendition, and efficiency.

2. P61 (2 units) - both burns whiter than any of my incands and produces very nice and natural colors and if I have to give an opinion I'd say they look better than the high CRI. The drawback is that they burn up two batteries in max 20 mins. High CRI wins only in efficiency.

3. MN10 & MN11- for SF M3. Both looks orangey but still produces very faithful colors, especially the MN11. Better than high CRI in my opinion. It's hard to pick a winner here. High CRI wins in efficiency definitely. Even though the incands here looks orangey but there's something about the MN10 & MN11's power output that seems to offset the orangey cast.

4. MN16 - for use with KT4 turbo head on my M3. Surprisingly orangey. More orangey than MN11 which is also rated at 225 lumens. Prefer high CRI if comparing colors but this light gives out raw power and throw.

In my opinion, color wise I find the incand sandwiched between the XP-G warm white (example will be those offered by 4sevens on the limited run) and the SSC high CRI, the high CRI being the coolest of all. Which is better is hard to quantify. Like the saying goes, one man's food is another man's poison. YMMV. Much as I like incand for it's faithful colors I also recognize that we are in a transition period whereby LEDs are getting better and better, in tint, efficiency, as well as power. I say ditch the incand and go high CRI. You wouldn't miss anything.


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## ebow86 (Aug 17, 2010)

No high CRI LED can achieve the color rendition of the best incan's right now, but they are getting better. It is possible that though due to the nature of LED's they may never be able to match an incandescent's color rendition although they may come close, only time will tell. Don't forget that incan's add a sense of depth to whatever your viewing, something an LED can't no matter how high the CRI.


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## Tekno_Cowboy (Aug 17, 2010)

Perhaps that is true if you're comparing the best incans to a High-CRI LED, but generally speaking, the incans in flashlights are not what you would call the "best".

High-CRI emitters do in fact add a sense of depth to what you are viewing in my experience. Compared to almost all of the incans I have used, they provide a better sense of depth than the incans in most situations.

To get that benefit though, you need true High-CRI emitters, not just neutral or warm tint emitters, which are not necessarily high-CRI.


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## pjandyho (Aug 17, 2010)

ebow86 said:


> No high CRI LED can achieve the color rendition of the best incan's right now, but they are getting better. It is possible that though due to the nature of LED's they may never be able to match an incandescent's color rendition although they may come close, only time will tell. Don't forget that incan's add a sense of depth to whatever your viewing, something an LED can't no matter how high the CRI.



I fully agree with you except the last sentence. Not that I disagree but rather I believe it is possible when technology improve. I am not sure if you have the limited warm white runs from 4sevens but I have a 123^2 turbo and though the warm whites are not quite what an incand produces in terms of depth and contrast, I would say they are almost there. Only time & technology will tell.


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## ebow86 (Aug 17, 2010)

Tekno_Cowboy said:


> Perhaps that is true if you're comparing the best incans to a High-CRI LED, but generally speaking, the incans in flashlights are not what you would call the "best".
> 
> High-CRI emitters do in fact add a sense of depth to what you are viewing in my experience. Compared to almost all of the incans I have used, they provide a better sense of depth than the incans in most situations.
> 
> To get that benefit though, you need true High-CRI emitters, not just neutral or warm tint emitters, which are not necessarily high-CRI.


 

Ok, not sure I understand you here. "the incans in flashlights are not what you would call the "best". The incans in flashlights?

And I have to respectfuly disagree with your statement about high CRI emitters being superior in depth compared to incandescents. I mean, that could be true but it really depends on the lights you are compairing. A high cri led vs a maglite, then yes I could see your point but, In my limited experience with high CRI LEDS, the tint of these lights is indeed closer to incan but in my mind the depth is still not there, I still consider the best incans to still have the superior depth. Just for the record when I say "best incans" I'm refering to the surefire lights like the M3, M6, A2 aviaitor, 10X dominator, etc.


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## LuxLuthor (Aug 17, 2010)

Since I have at least a hundred top Incan setups, what is the best (quality) & highest CRI LED complete setup and I'll consider buying it and give you a completely objective comparison. I know about the high quality Ra model, but not sure it is necessarily the best (i.e. vs. Nichia H1 assembled into a quality 100+ "Lumen" light).

You certainly cannot use a K-Mart Everready 2D cell flashlight or stock Maglite as your comparison basis.


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## ebow86 (Aug 17, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> Since I have at least a hundred top Incan setups, what is the best (quality) & highest CRI LED complete setup and I'll consider buying it and give you a completely objective comparison. I know about the high quality Ra model, but not sure it is necessarily the best (i.e. vs. Nichia H1 assembled into a quality 100+ "Lumen" light).
> 
> You certainly cannot use a K-Mart Everready 2D cell flashlight or stock Maglite as your comparison basis.


 

No "test or compairson" can truly reveal how our eyes perceive the light in front of us. That why no test can show the "depth" of incandescents vs LED's we are talking about here. Only the user can percieve these qualitys, that's something a camera or light meter can't see or understand, only the human eye. So it's in this sense that no test can truly close the debate. Just MHO.


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## Hellbore (Aug 17, 2010)

ebow86 said:


> ...Don't forget that incan's add a sense of depth to whatever your viewing, something an LED can't no matter how high the CRI.





ebow86 said:


> No "test or compairson" can truly reveal how our eyes perceive the light in front of us. That why no test can show the "depth" of incandescents vs LED's we are talking about here. Only the user can percieve these qualitys, that's something a camera or light meter can't see or understand, only the human eye. So it's in this sense that no test can truly close the debate. Just MHO.



So even if an LED had a CRI of 100, there are "qualitys" which can't be measured that make the incandescent light better? How convenient. No one can argue with something that can't be measured, proven, or disproven.


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## ebow86 (Aug 17, 2010)

Hellbore said:


> So even if an LED had a CRI of 100, there are "qualitys" which can't be measured that make the incandescent light better? How convenient. No one can argue with something that can't be measured, proven, or disproven.


 

No. Your misunderstanding. Explain to me how one can measure "depth" when using a flashlight? Is there some type of special camera or something? No, only the human eye can see these "qualties" I'm talking about. Your twisting what I'm saying.


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## Hellbore (Aug 17, 2010)

ebow86 said:


> No. Your misunderstanding. Explain to me how one can measure "depth" when using a flashlight?



I can't explain it, it's your metric not mine, if anything you should explain it since you're the one claiming incans have more of it.

Besides, you say that regardless of the CRI, incans will always look better. How do you know there is more to it than CRI? How many LEDs have you seen that have a CRI of 100? (like a good incan) I don't think any exist. You've never seen one, neither have any of us, so you don't know if LEDs would look the same to you or not, under those circumstances.


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## ebow86 (Aug 17, 2010)

Hellbore said:


> I can't explain it, it's your metric not mine. If anything you would have to explain to ME what "depth" means to you.


 
Good, now your getting the point. These things really can't be measured in any way, it how our eyes percieve them. How can I explain depth, I can't, but I know what my eyes see. My point is this, one can do a scientific test and show how a high CRI led is acheiving the same color rendition and lumens output as a compairable incandescent, using the same voltage and even the same reflector. Now compair those 2 flashlight's against one another, the light from both suddenly appear different. Wait a minute, the test shows the same amount of lumens and CRI, yet the light emitting from both shows different "qualitys". See what I'm saying here?


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## Hellbore (Aug 17, 2010)

ebow86 said:


> Good, now your getting the point. These things really can't be measured in any way, it how our eyes percieve them. How can I explain depth, I can't, but I know what my eyes see. My point is this, one can do a scientific test and show how a high CRI led is acheiving the same color rendition and lumens output as a compairable incandescent, using the same voltage and even the same reflector. Now compair those 2 flashlight's against one another, the light from both suddenly appear different. Wait a minute, the test shows the same amount of lumens and CRI, yet the light emitting from both shows different "qualitys". See what I'm saying here?



And you've performed the test you describe here? What high CRI LED was it? What was the CRI rating of the incan? What about the color temperatures of the 2 lights and the lumens they were outputting? I'm very interested in this test.


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## ebow86 (Aug 17, 2010)

I didn't say I ever did a compairson. My last post was a hypothotical compairson to try and prove a point. When did I say that high CRI's will never look as good as incandescent's? Could you kindly point out the post? I said might not ever, I never said they never will, big difference.


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## pjandyho (Aug 17, 2010)

Hellbore said:


> I can't explain it, it's your metric not mine, if anything you should explain it since you're the one claiming incans have more of it.



I agree with ebow86. Or rather I understand where he is coming from. There really isn't any scientific means to measure depth perception on any particular lights be it incands or LEDs. No way. Depth perception is very personal and individualistic, if that is the right word. Everyone perceives things differently, just like some prefer cool white and some prefer warm white, likewise some will perceive more depth using an incand while others fail to see a difference at all. However one may still make a study by comparing both side by side to come up with a final conclusion. You can't really quantify depth perception. It's a feeling, it's the _zen_ of flasholism.


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## Hellbore (Aug 17, 2010)

ebow86 said:


> When did I say that high CRI's will never look as good as incandescent's? Could you kindly point out the post? I said might not ever, I never said they never will, big difference.





ebow86 said:


> Don't forget that incan's add a sense of depth to whatever your viewing, *something an LED can't no matter how high the CRI.*



Right here you're claiming that LED's are somehow inherently incapable of ever adding a sense of depth, no matter how high the CRI is. You don't know this because you have never seen a 100 CRI LED (I doubt anyone here has).

I'm not offended by that, I just think it's an unfair statement, who knows what the future will hold. My point is that no matter how much LED's improve, you would still think incans look better, even if they looked the same. That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion. I just think you have been pushing this opinion pretty hard lately on this LED flashlight forum.


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## ebow86 (Aug 17, 2010)

Hellbore said:


> Right here you're claiming that LED's are somehow inherently incapable of ever adding a sense of depth, no matter how high the CRI is. You don't know this because you have never seen a 100 CRI LED (I doubt anyone here has).


 

Nice try but " sense of depth" and "looking as good" are 2 completely different things. I never said that LED's will never "look as good" as incandescent's. Maybe I should have worded my post different, here's how I should have put it " right now leds can't match the depth perception of incandescent's, no matter how high the CRI, this could change in the future though". Better?


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## Hellbore (Aug 17, 2010)

ebow86 said:


> Nice try but " sense of depth" and "looking as good" are 2 completely different things. I never said that LED's will never "look as good" as incandescent's. Maybe I should have worded my post different, here's how I should have put it " right now leds can't match the depth perception of incandescent's, no matter how high the CRI, this could change in the future though". Better?



Ya got me on a technicality there. True, maybe for some hypothetical people, having *less* depth perception looks better. Maybe. I just assumed "more realistic" and "better" could be used interchangeably in this discussion.

I just think you're preaching the gospel of incan in the LED forum. A lot.


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## ebow86 (Aug 17, 2010)

Hellbore said:


> Right here you're claiming that LED's are somehow inherently incapable of ever adding a sense of depth, no matter how high the CRI is. You don't know this because you have never seen a 100 CRI LED (I doubt anyone here has).
> 
> I'm not offended by that, I just think it's an unfair statement, who knows what the future will hold. My point is that no matter how much LED's improve, you would still think incans look better, even if they looked the same. That's fine, you're entitled to your opinion. I just think you have been pushing this opinion pretty hard lately on this LED flashlight forum.


 

"My point is that no matter how much LED's improve, you would still think incans look better, even if they looked the same". 

How have you come to that conclusion without even knowing who I am? I dream everyday of an LED that can match my incandescent's in certain areas but unfortunally that day is not here yet. See my signature? I own more LED's than incandescnet's, I love leds and I'm not anti-led, far from it, it's not like I sit and dread the day that an LED comes along that will put incandescents out the door, but I feel that's what you are thinking.


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## ebow86 (Aug 17, 2010)

Hellbore said:


> Ya got me on a technicality there. True, maybe for some hypothetical people, having *less* depth perception looks better. For some crazy people. Maybe. I just assumed "more realistic" and "better" could be used interchangeably in this discussion.
> 
> I just think you're preaching the gospel of incan in the LED forum. A lot.


 

You are right. To be honest with so many members here I figured my posts just went unnoticed and nobody cared. Maybe I'm "preaching the incan gospel" a little too much in this LED forum, for that I apolgize. I just want it to be known I'm not trying to constantly debate or cause heated arguments here, it's just I'm a proud, self admitted incandescent fan, that all. I wasn't trying to offend anyone or stir anyone up.


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## Hellbore (Aug 17, 2010)

Fair enough, maybe I misunderstood you, you just love the look of incans and want to share it. I guess there's nothing wrong with that


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## ebow86 (Aug 17, 2010)

Hellbore said:


> Fair enough I guess, must have been a misunderstanding, you just love your incans and want to share it.


 

Good deal, last thing we want here is a debate to turn heated, That's bad for everybody


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## Hellbore (Aug 17, 2010)

ebow86 said:


> Good deal, last thing we want here is a debate to turn heated, That's bad for everybody



Hey at least no one can say the debate is off-topic... it's in the thread title hehe...



ebow86 said:


> I just want it to be known I'm not trying to constantly debate or cause heated arguments here, it's just I'm a proud, self admitted incandescent fan, that all. I wasn't trying to offend anyone or stir anyone up.



Amen to that... I don't want to be the "Pro-LED argument starter" any more than you want to be the "Pro-incan argument starter"


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## lctorana (Aug 17, 2010)

bmcgators98 said:


> My question is how does a LED with a high CRI compare to an quality incan? I have looked the beam shots of the HDS but they are were compared to other LEDs. How would a p60 incan look in comparison?


That's two questions.

But only one answer:

Buy both.

You will soon enough anyway.


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## LuxLuthor (Aug 17, 2010)

So no one has a suggested model of the best quality & high CRI LED I can buy? BTW, I have at least 30 LED's, and I do love them, but have not yet got one that his a quality, high CRI. The closest I have found offered as a quality product is that Ra model I linked earlier. Is that the best practical example?

I'm aware that I can only give my opinion, but ebow86, please don't tell me I can't give a comparison. I know the strengths and weaknesses of Incands as much as anyone on the forum. I also know that LED's are making monumental strides with many features, so I'm not at all opposed to saying that a new LED model XXXX gives effective and realistic enough colors, contrasts, detail rendering to be a serious contender outdoors on a practical basis with incands, given the other advantages that LED's have already moved ahead on.


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## Hellbore (Aug 17, 2010)

Luxluthor, you mentioned the Nichia H1, are you talking about this one:

http://www.nichia.co.jp/specification/en/product/led_library/NS6L083BT-H1-E.pdf

I am not sure if I am reading those specs correctly, but I believe it states this LED has a CRI rating of 92, whereas the HDS High CRI uses an emitter rated at a CRI of 93. For what it's worth.

I think the McGizmo Sundrop uses the Nichia LED you were talking about, but I'm not 100% sure:
http://dmcleish.com/CPF/HighCRI/SunDrop/index.html

Anyway, I would think those would be the 2 front runners in a "high CRI LED vs. incan" comparison, the HDS High CRI and the Sundrop...


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## ebow86 (Aug 17, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> So no one has a suggested model of the best quality & high CRI LED I can buy? BTW, I have at least 30 LED's, and I do love them, but have not yet got one that his a quality, high CRI. The closest I have found offered as a quality product is that Ra model I linked earlier. Is that the best practical example?
> 
> I'm aware that I can only give my opinion, but ebow86, please don't tell me I can't give a comparison. I know the strengths and weaknesses of Incands as much as anyone on the forum. I also know that LED's are making monumental strides with many features, so I'm not at all opposed to saying that a new LED model XXXX gives effective and realistic enough colors, contrasts, detail rendering to be a serious contender outdoors on a practical basis with incands, given the other advantages that LED's have already moved ahead on.


 


I never said you couldn't do a compairson, I'm not sure how you intertepted my post, all I said was the most important thing was how our eye's percieve the light, and I believe that's something that can't be tested because everyone percieves things differently. By all means, go ahead with your compairson, I would love to see the results


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## ebow86 (Aug 17, 2010)

The Ra is putting out a bit more lumens but I think a good compairson would be between the Ra and the Surefire A2 aviator. But the LED's on the aviator also run when the incan lamp is on, would that affect the results any?


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## pjandyho (Aug 17, 2010)

I find that I prefer the colors of the A2 Aviator more than the High CRI clicky but I much prefer the brighter output of the High CRI. Overall, the high CRI trumps over the Aviator in size, efficiency, and output.


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## ebow86 (Aug 17, 2010)

pjandyho said:


> I find that I prefer the colors of the A2 Aviator more than the High CRI clicky but I much prefer the brighter output of the High CRI. Overall, the high CRI trumps over the Aviator in size, efficiency, and output.


 

Ouch that hurts ,if the high CRI RA really trumps the aviator I just might have to check it out. It's rated at 100 lumens @ a typical runtime of 1.25 hrs, vs 80 ish surefire lumens @ around 1hr for the aviator, on paper you would think they are similar (I say ouch cause I'm an aviator lover)


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## Hellbore (Aug 17, 2010)

The HDS High CRI is brighter than the Aviator? That surprises me. I don't have a lot of experience with incans though, I thought Surefire incans were typically pretty bright.

I wanted to mention this, another interesting angle to this discussion: See here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_rendering_index

It's interesting to note that when measuring the CRI of a light source with a color temp of under 5000K (which I believe applies to the HDS High CRI), the reference light used for the comparison is actually an incandescent light.... So in this case the CRI rating is actually a measure of how similar the colors rendered by the LED look to colors rendered by an incandescent light! Kind of funny... 

I think the color temp of the Sundrop, on the other hand, is over 5000K and therefore that emitters CRI is measured in reference to sunlight. I think. So the Sundrop, with a similar CRI rating, may actually be superior to the HDS High CRI... maybe?

But then again, the color temp of sunlight varies too, depending on the phase and atmospheric factors...


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## LuxLuthor (Aug 17, 2010)

Hellbore said:


> Luxluthor, you mentioned the Nichia H1, are you talking about this one:
> 
> http://www.nichia.co.jp/specification/en/product/led_library/NS6L083BT-H1-E.pdf
> 
> ...



I have only heard people talk about the Nichia, and "TC" reminded me about it above in a way that I thought maybe it was even better than the HDS model. *But I'll go ahead and get that HDS high CRI and give my fair evaluation of it, because I was already on the fence having read so many high opinions about it. Thank you!*

*ebow*, I meant that I know you cannot capture a comparison in the kind of objective point by point, because it would be akin to comparing apples and oranges....while both are fruits (lights) there are significant aspects which cannot be compared on the same scales.

What I meant was that people who really do know the variations in high end incans are able to make reasonable comparisons in their perception of outdoor scenarios, including depth, recognizeable color rendering & contrast as I move around, etc.. Their comparisons would likely be valid for a great many people who have been looking for some of the remaining incan attributes to arrive with LED's. I'm not really in the LED section, or this thread to promote incans, rather more to always learn about new developments in all lights.

A personal, objective comparison is not something that can be captured with a camera, or objectively quantified with a light meter designed to measure the Photopic CIE Spectral Scale. It's more like being able to answer that question: "Is this LED showing me pretty close to what I know I can see with an incan outside?" "Is it obvious with this LED that I'm seeing and identifying the neighbor's uniquely colored cat, and that flowers & plants look like they should?" At some point in time, I expect the answer to that question will eventually be "yes."


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## pjandyho (Aug 17, 2010)

ebow86 said:


> Ouch that hurts ,if the high CRI RA really trumps the aviator I just might have to check it out. It's rated at 100 lumens @ a typical runtime of 1.25 hrs, vs 80 ish surefire lumens @ around 1hr for the aviator, on paper you would think they are similar (I say ouch cause I'm an aviator lover)



A2 Aviator is only rated for 50 mins on high. I think it is still ok until you look into the fact that it runs off two CR123 versus one in the Ra clicky. I have read some claiming that they could insert RCR 123 in the Aviator but I just couldn't seem to fit them in mine. I have the flat sided body with black HAIII version.

2nd drawback is that A2 gets extremely hot when operated for long, maybe 15 mins or longer but the heat maintains after that for the whole duration. Still HDS clicky wins.

HDS clicky allows 4 different modes of brightness whereas the A2 only 2 modes with the lower mode using white 5mm LEDs that produces an angry blue. HDS wins.

The only thing I really like about the A2 is the incand color and depth perception but let me just say it is only slight better than the high CRI clicky.

I still love the A2 Aviator but I find myself reaching for it only because I just wanted to play with it and admire the incand tint. For real world applications like camping and trekking, I reach for the high CRI Ra clicky.


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## experimentjon (Aug 17, 2010)

I'm no expert, but there is definitely some "depth" quality that a high CRI light can provide. (Sorry, but I haven't used incan bulbs since my 8th grade science class.) And for a long time, while I was lurking on these forums, I didn't really believe any of the hype about these neutral or warm LEDs. When 4sevens released their limited runs, I just let them pass without taking much of a look at them. I thought the warmer LEDs just looked orange and weird. The beamshots on this site weren't the most convincing either. Yes, the high CRI light beamshots were definitely "different." But I wouldn't necessarily say they were better.

Then I bought a 4sevens neutral AA on CPF. (Couldn't turn it down since it was cheap and an AA body that you can't buy direct from 4sevens.) And it opened my eyes. There was definitely aspects of the beam and its color rendering and depth that I could see in real life, but not on the computer screen.

I think it's hard to have a metric for depth, but you can definitely see it with your own eyes.

Now I want the High CRI Clicky. Arrrrggghhh! And I just ordered a Clicky 170 that hasn't even come in.... (Granted, I ordered it like two days ago.) XD

Edit: LOL, looks like I'm about two hours late to the conversation. That's what happens when you load a page and let it sit. XD


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## pjandyho (Aug 17, 2010)

LuxLuthor, go on and get the high CRI clicky. I am sure you would love it after playing around with it for awhile.


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## pjandyho (Aug 17, 2010)

experimentjon said:


> I'm no expert, but there is definitely some "depth" quality that a high CRI light can provide. (Sorry, but I haven't used incan bulbs since my 8th grade science class.) And for a long time, while I was lurking on these forums, I didn't really believe any of the hype about these neutral or warm LEDs. When 4sevens released their limited runs, I just let them pass without taking much of a look at them. I thought the warmer LEDs just looked orange and weird. The beamshots on this site weren't the most convincing either. Yes, the high CRI light beamshots were definitely "different." But I wouldn't necessarily say they were better.
> 
> Then I bought a 4sevens neutral AA on CPF. (Couldn't turn it down since it was cheap and an AA body that you can't buy direct from 4sevens.) And it opened my eyes. There was definitely aspects of the beam and its color rendering and depth that I could see in real life, but not on the computer screen.
> 
> ...



Trust me, the 170 alone is not enough. The high CRI makes a good pair with the 170. Better flood and better color and depth for close up work.


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## Hellbore (Aug 17, 2010)

It's only money...


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## Tekno_Cowboy (Aug 17, 2010)

I would like to make a note here that states that no light with a Cree emitter is high-cri.

I would also like to say that while the Ra High-CRI does use the SSC P4 emitter, it is not tightly restricted to one or two bins, at least according to what I got out of a short conversation with Henry.

I would put the Nichia NS6L183-H1 emitters at the very top end of the High-CRI LED ladder. While their rating is one point lower than the SSC High-CRI emitter, the light emitted renders colors more accurately than any other LED I've seen, and better than almost every incan I've seen. The problem with this LED is that it cannot be bought in any quantity smaller than a full reel, and the only size PCB for it is 20mm. I've used a couple of these without a PCB, but it didn't work out well....

Whoever said that we couldn't argue over something we couldn't prove is horribly mistaken 

LuxLuthor: I'd be willing to send you one of the Nichia emitters I mentioned to compare with your other lights. If you're interested, shoot me a PM.


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## pjandyho (Aug 17, 2010)

Hi Techno_Cowboy, is it also true that the Nichia high CRI is the least efficient compared to the SSC high CRI? Does it mean that I am able to get more lumen per watt with the SSC than I could with the Nichia? I am not too familiar with the differences between both but I have seen some comparison photos done by McGizmo and the Nichia produces more accurate colors overall.


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## Hellbore (Aug 17, 2010)

Tekno_Cowboy are there any lights besides the Sundrop that use the Nichia high CRI emitter?

I would love to try it out but can't afford a Sundrop, not right now anyway. If they are even available to buy.


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## ebow86 (Aug 17, 2010)

pjandyho said:


> A2 Aviator is only rated for 50 mins on high. I think it is still ok until you look into the fact that it runs off two CR123 versus one in the Ra clicky. I have read some claiming that they could insert RCR 123 in the Aviator but I just couldn't seem to fit them in mine. I have the flat sided body with black HAIII version.
> 
> 2nd drawback is that A2 gets extremely hot when operated for long, maybe 15 mins or longer but the heat maintains after that for the whole duration. Still HDS clicky wins.
> 
> ...


 

The aviator may be rated at 50 lumens but it's putting out way more than that, more like 80 lumens for the duration of the battery life. This has been confirmed by several memebers.


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## pjandyho (Aug 17, 2010)

ebow86 said:


> The aviator may be rated at 50 lumens but it's putting out way more than that, more like 80 lumens for the duration of the battery life. This has been confirmed by several memebers.



Yes that I know but for the benefit of everyone here, some of whom being newbie, I think it would be best to keep it to what Surefire has rated on paper to avoid confusion. According to Surefire, A2 Aviator has a tactical runtime of 50 mins at 50 lumens.


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## the.Mtn.Man (Aug 17, 2010)

experimentjon said:


> ...for a long time, while I was lurking on these forums, I didn't really believe any of the hype about these neutral or warm LEDs...


Sounds a lot like my story. I was happy with cool whites and thought warm LEDs were a waste of time ("Why would you want dingy yellow when you can have bright white?") until I compared the color rendering of my Quark MiNI AA to the cheap Dollar Store incandescents my kids were playing with. Suddenly the cool white looked flat and dull, so I ordered a neutral white QMiNi and was blown away by how bright colors looked. Then I ordered a high CRI Clicky and was blown away again because it really makes colors "pop". Now I no longer get jealous when my kids pull out their incandescent lights.


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## Tekno_Cowboy (Aug 17, 2010)

The Nichia 183 emitters are about the same output as the SSC P4 emitters. IIRC the 119 emitters by Nichia are also about the same output level, but in a different package, and even harder to get in the H1 variety.

There is someone working on a light using the Nichia emitters, though I can't remember the name off the top of my head...Neo-something I think....


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## Th232 (Aug 17, 2010)

Neoseikan? I remember you emailing him the datasheet a while back over on the MP.


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## Tekno_Cowboy (Aug 17, 2010)

That's the one, thanks :thumbsup:


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## LuxLuthor (Aug 17, 2010)

Tekno_Cowboy said:


> LuxLuthor: I'd be willing to send you one of the Nichia emitters I mentioned to compare with your other lights. If you're interested, shoot me a PM.



As with our exploration of Krytox, and your sending me that sample which I continue to find a superb product, I highly value your opinions, and am humbled by your generosity. 

I would love to try a nice setup with the Nichia, but have not seen it installed on any quality lights at a reasonable price (The Sundrop made it seem to be somewhat impractical without the lens and was a lower output than I hoped for). I Also looked at this McG topic with some comparisons, but photos are only hints on what to follow up with. 

I would not know what to do with just the emitter, never having put together an LED + driver from scratch, so any "ready to go" suggestions would be great to hear about.

In the meantime, I did order that HDS High CRI model last night.


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## Tekno_Cowboy (Aug 17, 2010)

How about this: When I get my current project finished (keep in mind this may not be til this fall) I'll send it your way for a week of non-destructive testing 

The sundrop uses the little brother of the 183 emitters I managed to get a hold of. (test parts for a whole-house lighting job that fell through) The 083's it uses are not nearly as bright as the 183 emitters.


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## Hellbore (Aug 17, 2010)

Tekno_Cowboy said:


> How about this: When I get my current project finished (keep in mind this may not be til this fall) I'll send it your way for a week of non-destructive testing
> 
> The sundrop uses the little brother of the 183 emitters I managed to get a hold of. (test parts for a whole-house lighting job that fell through) The 083's it uses are not nearly as bright as the 183 emitters.



Any chance you would sell me a 183 emitter or two for a modding project?


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## Tekno_Cowboy (Aug 17, 2010)

Nope, no chance. The reason is simply because if I sell you one, everyone else will want one, and I'll have none left for my own projects. I wouldn't be so tight with them, but it pretty much took 3 months of talking to all the right people to get the ones I do have. I've wanted to start a group buy for a while now, but I doubt I'll find enough interest for 1400 emitters....


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## Hellbore (Aug 17, 2010)

Tekno_Cowboy said:


> Nope, no chance. The reason is simply because if I sell you one, everyone else will want one, and I'll have none left for my own projects. I wouldn't be so tight with them, but it pretty much took 3 months of talking to all the right people to get the ones I do have. I've wanted to start a group buy for a while now, but I doubt I'll find enough interest for 1400 emitters....



LOL... they are really that hard to get? Wow. Well in that case, I probably wouldn't part with them either if I was you.


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## LuxLuthor (Aug 18, 2010)

Tekno_Cowboy said:


> How about this: When I get my current project finished (keep in mind this may not be til this fall) I'll send it your way for a week of non-destructive testing
> 
> The sundrop uses the little brother of the 183 emitters I managed to get a hold of. (test parts for a whole-house lighting job that fell through) The 083's it uses are not nearly as bright as the 183 emitters.



OK, sounds good. Drop me a PM when you get it done and I'll see how much better it is than the HDS High CRI which Henry just said is delayed until next week.


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## the.Mtn.Man (Aug 18, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> In the meantime, I did order that HDS High CRI model last night.


I predict you will be very happy with this light. I have one myself, and it's a thing of beauty.


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## jblackwood (Aug 18, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> Since I have at least a hundred top Incan setups, what is the best (quality) & highest CRI LED complete setup and I'll consider buying it and give you a completely objective comparison. I know about the high quality Ra model, but not sure it is necessarily the best (i.e. vs. Nichia H1 assembled into a quality 100+ "Lumen" light).
> 
> You certainly cannot use a K-Mart Everready 2D cell flashlight or stock Maglite as your comparison basis.



I totally agree with my fellow DEFT owner here. I skipped ahead of all the arguing :shakehead but did anyone ever answer LL? I'd really like one person's opinion with both kinds of lights in front of him/her. Isn't that the best way to compare two things? LuxLuthor has certainly proved that with his various side-by-side beamshots and comparisons (from which I've learned a lot, thanks btw) and his is among the first 5 names I'd consider for a test of this nature. Well? Can anyone suggest a high quality light using the Nichia H1 (or better) emitter in order to compare to one or more of LuxLuthor's incan setups (and if I know him, he'll throw in a couple of K-Mart specials too just to prove a point!). :devil:


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## flashfiend (Aug 18, 2010)

Since we are comparing High CRI LED and a good incan, anyone willing and able to submit a CRI 83 3000k sst-90 (nailbender builds P60 modules with these) for the comparison? One of the things I love about my incans is that I get output and CRI. The LED I am mentioning is high output with relatively decent CRI.


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## LuxLuthor (Aug 18, 2010)

Thanks for the kind words. I suspect, given TC's comments of how rare/valuable that particular Nichia 183 emitter is that there are not any quality production lights out there.

If it is as really nice as TC reports, that begs the question as to why Fenix or a volume manufacturer is not using them. A quantity of 1500 would be routine for them. Is there something about it that makes it hard to use &/or much more expensive to make them?

In the meantime, I will enjoy playing with this HDS as a step in the high LED CRI direction, and I very much appreciate everyone's suggestions.


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## pjandyho (Aug 18, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> Thanks for the kind words. I suspect, given TC's comments of how rare/valuable that particular Nichia 183 emitter is that there are not any quality production lights out there.
> 
> If it is as really nice as TC reports, that begs the question as to why Fenix or a volume manufacturer is not using them. A quantity of 1500 would be routine for them. Is there something about it that makes it hard to use &/or much more expensive to make them?
> 
> In the meantime, I will enjoy playing with this HDS as a step in the high LED CRI direction, and I very much appreciate everyone's suggestions.


Could it be due to the fact that these Nichia 183 costs a lot more than the regular cool white version and that manufacturers are not willing to jump right in for fear that they would not be able to market it out to the consumers? I sort of recall McGizmo or someone else (couldn't recall who exactly) mentioning that the high CRI Nichia's costs a few times more.


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## LEDAdd1ct (Aug 18, 2010)

I did not realize the HDS now offers a 17670 option- the CR123 was one of the things keeping me away.

I gave up cool whites some time ago, and haven't purchased any lights in a long time, because now I am almost entirely focused on a warm, high CRI, and _bright_ flashlight. I may have to try the HDS with 17670...

Lux, I look forward to your tests, and, generally speaking, I look forward to a bright, widely available high CRI flashlight with the Nichia inside it.


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## wquiles (Aug 18, 2010)

Maybe not quite the special H1's, but I was able to get a few of these NS6L183T from a friend of mine in Germany:
http://www.leds.de/en/High-Power-LEDs/Nichia-High-Power-LEDs/Nichia-NS6L183T-warmwhite-258lm-without-circuit-board-Emitter.html?sid=ad88da7db2b62d01459639a71b00f138

Although hard to capture by the camera, when compared to my Nichia 083, I like much more the NSL183 LED - it is my current EDC:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/278866


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## Bullzeyebill (Aug 19, 2010)

wquiles said:


> Maybe not quite the special H1's, but I was able to get a few of these NS6L183T from a friend of mine in Germany:
> http://www.leds.de/en/High-Power-LE...ter.html?sid=ad88da7db2b62d01459639a71b00f138
> 
> Although hard to capture by the camera, when compared to my Nichia 083, I like much more the NSL183 LED - it is my current EDC:
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/278866



Will, is there a way that you can re-shoot some pics with both 083 and 183 having the same lux on the target? Moving the 083 closer to the target so the lux is mostly the same? Really hard to compare with such differences in brightness. 

Bill


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## Hellbore (Aug 19, 2010)

I wonder what kind of interest a group buy of NS6L183-H1 emitters would garner here on CPF...

I wonder if there are enough people interested in a high-CRI, floody, high-flux emitter like this. I know I am


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## Th232 (Aug 19, 2010)

I'd also be in, but 1400 is a very high number to fill.

Although that said, interest in them is picking up. We filled T_C's latest high CRI SSC buy in quite a short period of time compared to the last two buys.


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## riccardo (Aug 19, 2010)

The Nichia LEDs sold on the german website (http://www.leds.de/en/High-Power-LEDs/Nichia-High-Power-LEDs/Nichia-NS6L183T-warmwhite-258lm.html) are labelled "NS6L183T" and "NS6W183T" but on the Nichia website I was not able to find any "NS6 _x_ 183 *T*".

It seems that in the "NS6 183 " family there are LEDs with hig, normal or low CRI but none of them have the luminous flux declared from the german website (anyway, I did not found "NS6L183T").

I'd really like to buy some sample but I'd like to know what I'm buying!! 
If this Nichia is a simple 75 CRI led... than I already have some 4Sevens warm white.

I hope someone will be able to clarify.. HIG CRI in this flux.. I would buy several to experiment!

OK, I edited my post because I just read again the post #66 and I see these are not the special H1 with high CRI. 

That's a pity.

I'd like to have (by modding an existing light or buying a new one) an HIG CRI flashlight with at least 150 OTF lumens.
I do not want anything too nice or expensive, a standard Quark Tactical head would be fine..

The Ra EDC High CRI would be fine but .. 100 lumens aren't appealing..


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## Tekno_Cowboy (Aug 19, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> Thanks for the kind words. I suspect, given TC's comments of how rare/valuable that particular Nichia 183 emitter is that there are not any quality production lights out there.
> 
> If it is as really nice as TC reports, that begs the question as to why Fenix or a volume manufacturer is not using them. A quantity of 1500 would be routine for them. Is there something about it that makes it hard to use &/or much more expensive to make them?
> 
> In the meantime, I will enjoy playing with this HDS as a step in the high LED CRI direction, and I very much appreciate everyone's suggestions.



They're actually not that bad price wise, at about $3/part. The limiting factor with the H1 variety is low yield at the factory.


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## wquiles (Aug 19, 2010)

Bullzeyebill said:


> Will, is there a way that you can re-shoot some pics with both 083 and 183 having the same lux on the target? Moving the 083 closer to the target so the lux is mostly the same? Really hard to compare with such differences in brightness.
> 
> Bill



Believe me I have tried, but it is not only the difference in brightness, but also the shape of the beam. Not only the output of the 083 is more weak, but it is a pure flood which makes it even worst to compare.


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## wquiles (Aug 19, 2010)

riccardo said:


> It seems that in the "NS6 183 " family there are LEDs with hig, normal or low CRI but none of them have the luminous flux declared from the german website (anyway, I did not found "NS6L183T").





riccardo said:


> OK, I edited my post because I just read again the post #66 and I see these are not the special H1 with high CRI.



I found and I am hosting the datasheets and Nichia LED catalog.

Here is the data sheet for the NS6L183T (the ones I got from Germany are the H3 with a CRI of 85, not the more coveted H1 with a CRI of 92):
Datasheet for NS6L183T-H3

Here is the Nichia 2010 LED catalog (warning - 14Mbyte file!):
Nichia 2010 LEd Catalog

Thanks to TC I was able to take part on the last group buy and I am getting some of the High CRI P4's, so I look forward to testing/playing with those P4's and the NS6L183T-H3 that I got, along side the Nichia 083.



riccardo said:


> I'd like to have (by modding an existing light or buying a new one) an HIG CRI flashlight with at least 150 OTF lumens.
> I do not want anything too nice or expensive, a standard Quark Tactical head would be fine..
> 
> The Ra EDC High CRI would be fine but .. 100 lumens aren't appealing..


+1

The NS6L183T-H3 that I got looks awesome in person and at the 750mA that I am driving it with it should be making (at the LED) around 215 lumens, which is the average output the German site gives it for a 700mA drive. It is not the H1, but it looks (to me) better than the Nichia 083 LED that I got in my mule, and a lot more natural than any/all other LED's that I have play with so far.

Maybe one of these days we will get lucky and get some of those H1's to play with


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## germanium (Aug 21, 2010)

I have both a Fenix LD20 based on the CreeXP-G R4 & aiTP A4 Polestar based on a Cree MC-E not sure of the grade on it. 

The Fenix LD20 has on the surface what appeared to be a cooler tint but in closer examination the iTP light was actually slightly cooler as in more bluish tint. The LD20's tint was shown to be very slightly green in comparison to the A6 polestar. In spite of the cooler tint of the A6 Polestar the colors were far more natural with the A6 Polestar at equivolent brightness. Medium on the Polestar, high on the LD20. The light were held at distances that made thier spots & spill equivolent size & brightness so the only difference was the relative color temperature & color rendition which seemed far superior on the A6 Polestar in spite of the higher color temperature of the A6 Polestar. Colors were more true to the colors as seen in daylight on the A6 polestar but quite severely washed out on the LD20 in any event.


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## LuxLuthor (Sep 4, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> As with our exploration of Krytox, and your sending me that sample which I continue to find a superb product, I highly value your opinions, and am humbled by your generosity.
> 
> I would love to try a nice setup with the Nichia, but have not seen it installed on any quality lights at a reasonable price (The Sundrop made it seem to be somewhat impractical without the lens and was a lower output than I hoped for). I Also looked at this McG topic with some comparisons, but photos are only hints on what to follow up with.
> 
> ...



Meanwhile back at the ranch....I wonder what ever happened to that HDS High CRI model I ordered on 8/21. First order from HDS, guess they have a "No customer updates for delays" policy. Maybe I better give them a call.


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## flatline (Sep 4, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> Meanwhile back at the ranch....I wonder what ever happened to that HDS High CRI model I ordered on 8/21. First order from HDS, guess they have a "No customer updates for delays" policy. Maybe I better give them a call.



I read in another thread that HDS sold out of the high-CRI emitters and are waiting for more to arrive. Have no idea how reliable that rumor is, though.

--flatline


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## LuxLuthor (Sep 4, 2010)

Ahhh, that may explain it. I'll probably give them a call to get an ETA after the holidays. Thanks


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## LuxLuthor (Sep 25, 2010)

I did receive the HDS EDC High CRI a few weeks back in the 17670 size, and wanted to post my impressions in comparison to incans when outdoors. Like many of the quality 4 to 5" long LED clicky lights, this has a nice pocket size portability, tailcap button, and textured finish. 

I wish it had an eyelet to attach a strap, and my main turnoff was their using the same stock of lens barrel sections that have two tapped empty screw holes since they decided to change to a tailcap ring/pocket clip. *Those two holes just look like a cheap, crap move to me, and alone makes me regret my purchase,* since this was not a cheap light. 

I mostly need to use this on the 100L high setting, as the low is too low to identify much while walking. Now moving on to the high CRI aspect. 

There is reasonable progress in a more accurate color rendering when looking at outside objects over the typical LED's, but I don't think it is dramatically better than the R2. It gives a slight rose/brown color to everything, and there are certain flowers, foliage, tan, sand, dirt colored items that don't look natural when compared to an incan. But it is a good step in the right direction. 

I think part of the advantage of the incan in showing things outside more accurately must be the diversity of light spectrum frequency representation, in addition to the summary Kelvin color. 

Overall, this will become another of my 3 to 5" LED pocket lights that I might use for a backup to an incan outside, or use inside for various tasks. It wasn't worth the final $174 price I paid with the black bezel.


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## kaichu dento (Sep 25, 2010)

I agree with a lot of what LuxLuthor is saying and feel that the high CRI is still not the ideal replacement for incan. 
My personal favorite any more, tintwise, is the rose tinted warm MiNi AA I've got and after just having given an identical one to my brother, it's his new favorite as well.

Unfortunately, at least for my preference, not all of them have that same rose tint to them. 

Remembering how poorly fluorescent lights did in competing with the superior color of incandescent before finally getting to some of the excellent results that are now almost standard, I'm hoping that LED's are soon on par for resemblance of incandescent-like outputs.

As much as I love the look of incan, I keep hoping that it will not much longer before we can select output levels on our incans as easily as we can with our LED lights. The day I can select output level on my incans will be the day I start buying and carrying lots of incans. 

I can't wait for my incan Draco!


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## flashfiend (Sep 26, 2010)

I realize my earlier comment regarding the 3000k SST-90 CRI 83 was mostly ignored but LuxLuthor's comment regarding output was one of my concerns with the High CRI LEDs typically considered in the discussion. However with the SST-90 3000K, I actually believe it compares favorably with some of my incans while still achieving higher output than typical High CRI LEDs. It also has longer runtime than my incan hotwires in the same size form factor (6P).

******

Some photos I took with the White Balance manually adjusted for each source. I'll try to add a High CRI LED shot if and when I get the NeoFab Air. It's supposed to be using one of the Nichia LED's (183 or 083).

Sunlight 3PM (Pacific)






WA1185





SST-90 3000K CRI 83





XP-G 4000K CRI 75





MC-E 3500K CRI 80


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## Icebreak (Sep 27, 2010)

I have not seen spectral graphs of High CRI LED emitters so that somewhat disqualifies my opinion but I would like to contribute a little here:

"I think part of the advantage of the incan in showing things outside more accurately must be the diversity of light spectrum frequency representation, in addition to the summary Kelvin color."

- LuxLuthor

Each frequency of light focuses at a different point in your eye structure. The more frequencies the more depth perception. A well driven incan will give you more spectrum than an LED will therefore they do better at that task.

That said, I'm a strong believer in that it is each individual's perspective that is most important. What might work better for one individual may not work so well for another individual. I believe many of you have made reference to this and I agree.

I use both depending on the task at hand.


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## kaichu dento (Sep 27, 2010)

Icebreak said:


> A well driven incan will give you more spectrum than an LED will therefore they do better at that task.


I wonder if they'll ever be able to combine within one emitter the capability to mimic the wide ranging spectrum of incan bulbs, to the point to where they'd be satisfactory even to dedicated incan users.

I love the output of my incan lights, but am spoiled by the runtimes and ability to vary output level with my led lights, and now with the warm tinted I feel 90% to what I love about incan, but it would be nice to get that last 5% too. 

Just found a couple of my 4xAA UK lights and remember how much I always loved using them, even though I had to always keep an extra change of batteries with me.


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## flashfiend (Sep 27, 2010)

Icebreak said:


> A well driven incan will give you more spectrum than an LED will therefore they do better at that task.
> 
> That said, I'm a strong believer in that it is each individual's perspective that is most important. What might work better for one individual may not work so well for another individual. I believe many of you have made reference to this and I agree.
> 
> I use both depending on the task at hand.



+1 to the end of your post but I was wondering if there is a spectrographic diagram that supports the first part of the quoted statement. I recall McGizmo posting a comparison of the Nichia 083 LED with the Maui noon sun with such a diagram. Any similar graphic to show that comparison with an incan?

*****Found it on my own












*****
btw, Good splicing Tally-Ho.


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## Icebreak (Sep 27, 2010)

kaichu dento said:


> I wonder if they'll ever be able to combine within one emitter the capability to mimic the wide ranging spectrum of incan bulbs, to the point to where they'd be satisfactory even to dedicated incan users.



I believe they will eventually. It may take a new materiel in the substrata, maybe a combination ala alloyesque. I'm not really sure how but they have done some amazing things in the last ten years. I can imagine that, sure.


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## pjandyho (Sep 27, 2010)

This is my opinion. I love incand and how it brings out colors and depth perception especially for use in the outdoors, but incands are only good if one is using the high powered ones that produces light that is nearer to white than orange. Ironically, high powered incands proves to be downright inefficient. I recall the days when all my lights are incands, SF M6; M3; M2; E2e; E1e; Streamlight Scorpion; and so on, and the only LED I have is an Inova X5T and later on a Luxeon 1 watt KL1 LED head with the NX05 optics for use on my E1e. Much as I love those incands, they consume batteries like how a Ferrari would consume gas. One could always mod the original configuration with some after-market bulbs, bi-pins and even Lamp Assemblies from Lumens Factory and run them off rechargeables, but one would still need to bring along plenty of spare batteries just to ensure a healthy supply just so one wouldn't be caught in a complete blackout less supplies are depleted.

LEDs have evolved greatly since the days of it's infancy where a 5mm Nichia is the brightest thing one has ever seen, and they continue to evolve. Currently the high CRI offerings from Nichia and SSC might not be up to standards when compared to high powered incands, in my opinion they are almost there. The benefits of LEDs are many compared to incands. They include very good efficiency, meaning higher lumens per watt which could result in a very long runtime, and also the ability to allow makers to design lights with multiple output levels, something we don't see in an incand setup. This is what I call progress. I strongly believed that it won't be long before LED reaches the color reproduction that incands are producing.

I am a firm believer that when technology evolved, one too must follow along or be left out. I am a photographer and I remember those days when I am still very much a film shooter and digital cameras are beginning to progress. Some old school shooters lament about how digital technology could not beat film and that manufacturers should stop wasting time on improving digital technology but I chose to go forward and bought my first digital camera. Ever since digital has progressed so much I am no longer shooting on film and I believe that 90% of photographers are currently shooting digitally. In fact, for the last 8 years I have not had a single request from my client to provide them images on film.


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## Icebreak (Sep 27, 2010)

flashfiend said:


> +1 to the end of your post but I was wondering if there is a spectrographic diagram that supports the first part of the quoted statement. I recall McGizmo posting a comparison of the Nichia 083 LED with the Maui noon sun with such a diagram. Any similar graphic to show that comparison with an incan?
> 
> *****Found it on my own
> 
> ...




No comparisons of sunlight to incandescent light that I know of but at http://ledmuseum.org/ there are some incan spectrographs. Just go to the page and, using the scroll bar on the left go down a little more than a 3rd of the way. Faster still is to use your Ctrl F function and type in [FONT=Verdana, Arial][FONT=Verdana, Arial]*INCANDESCENT & FLUORESCENT FLASHLIGHTS *[/FONT][/FONT]and that "Find:" function will take you there. I've never seen a super performer like a WA1185 graphed but many of those incan lights on his page have graphs. You might be able to create an overlay or simply interpolate a comparison.


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## Icebreak (Sep 27, 2010)

pjandyho said:


> snip...incands are only good if one is using the high powered ones that produces light that is nearer to white than orange. Ironically, high powered incands proves to be downright inefficient...snip



The more overdriven the more efficacy in an incan. Some of the new combinations of batteries and lamps are much more efficient than say a mag off the shelf however so much of the output is radiometric instead of photometric they don't compete well with LEDs in runtime. This is why some of us got pretty excited about the advent of IRC lamps that reflected infrared "heat" back to the filiment which increased efficacy by reconsuming that heat as power and returning some of it as photometric or visible light.

You see, many of us realized that all these wattage calculators we were using weren't considering that when rating lumens efficacy.

But I see where you are coming from. My big, long running (over an hour) incans can be a load to carry. This somewhat decreases my own parabulative efficacy. I've gotten used to them and do often carry them on long hikes but most people want something easy to carry, bright and long running and LEDs provide that capability.


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## kaichu dento (Sep 27, 2010)

Icebreak said:


> I believe they will eventually. It may take a new materiel in the substrata, maybe a combination ala alloyesque. I'm not really sure how but they have done some amazing things in the last ten years. I can imagine that, sure.


I know I've read somewhere here about emitters that would eventually be capable of made of tiny portions of the emitter producing specific wavelengths and I hope that sometime within the next couple of years they'll be able to put it all together in emitters that produce a full 100 CRI.


pjandyho said:


> LEDs have evolved greatly since the days of it's infancy where a 5mm Nichia is the brightest thing one has ever seen, and they continue to evolve. Currently the high CRI offerings from Nichia and SSC might not be up to standards when compared to high powered incands, in my opinion they are almost there. The benefits of LEDs are many compared to incands. They include very good efficiency, meaning higher lumens per watt which could result in a very long runtime, and also the ability to allow makers to design lights with multiple output levels, something we don't see in an incand setup. This is what I call progress. I strongly believed that it won't be long before LED reaches the color reproduction that incands are producing.


I too was very happy with the high CRI P4 in my Clicky when I first got it, and still like them quite a bit, but one area in which I don't like them is the tint shift from the center of the beam to the flood where, if I recall correctly, went from white> greenish yellow > purplish. This is where I love the 7B in my Q MiNi as there is no tint shift, or at least not pronounced enough that I've ever noticed it. 

In addition to the points you've made, and I've said earlier, I also prefer LED's for their dimmability. 


> I am a firm believer that when technology evolved, one too must follow along or be left out. I am a photographer and I remember those days when I am still very much a film shooter and digital cameras are beginning to progress. Some old school shooters lament about how digital technology could not beat film and that manufacturers should stop wasting time on improving digital technology but I chose to go forward and bought my first digital camera. Ever since digital has progressed so much I am no longer shooting on film and I believe that 90% of photographers are currently shooting digitally. In fact, for the last 8 years I have not had a single request from my client to provide them images on film.


I have a friend who is an optics designer in Japan, and quite proud of his film cameras. During my first trip to Japan back in 1997, I expressed the hope for digital cameras to improve more quickly than they were, but that I was positive that within 10 years they would be good enough that professionals would be using them on a regular basis. He insisted that they would never be taken up by pros, even in decades to come and that film would always reign supreme. The most recent time I saw him he had a digital...

I was actually off by years in my assumption and I'm glad for it!


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## flashfiend (Sep 27, 2010)

Thanks for that. Good link and I know one shouldn't rely on objective spectographs to compare what one sees subjectively like color, but it's good to know that incans still have their advantages. As for incan use, levels, and efficiency, have any of you played with any of the regulated custom options. Certainly, they are not as small and compact as LED's can be nor can they have the same runtime but they do help and they definitely allow levels. Now if only I can get my hands on one. :mecry:



Icebreak said:


> No comparisons of sunlight to incandescent light that I know of but at http://ledmuseum.org/ there are some incan spectrographs. Just go to the page and, using the scroll bar on the left go down a little more than a 3rd of the way. Faster still is to use your Ctrl F function and type in [FONT=Verdana, Arial][FONT=Verdana, Arial]*INCANDESCENT & FLUORESCENT FLASHLIGHTS *[/FONT][/FONT]and that "Find:" function will take you there. I've never seen a super performer like a WA1185 graphed but many of those incan lights on his page have graphs. You might be able to create an overlay or simply interpolate a comparison.


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## pjandyho (Sep 27, 2010)

kaichu dento said:


> I too was very happy with the high CRI P4 in my Clicky when I first got it, and still like them quite a bit, but one area in which I don't like them is the tint shift from the center of the beam to the flood where, if I recall correctly, went from white> greenish yellow > purplish. This is where I love the 7B in my Q MiNi as there is no tint shift, or at least not pronounced enough that I've ever noticed it.



I am sorry that you find the high CRI not up to your taste. I agree that the beam may be kind of weird with the cooler hotspot graduating into a warmer corona. I hardly use the high CRI at home with all the white wall around and since I have the 140GT as well as the 170T to keep me company, I prefer to use them instead of the high CRI.

The high CRI was used in the field mainly and if you have seen a recent thread by me regarding trekking with high CRI and seen all the beamshots, you would realize that I the environment in which I utilize the high CRI to be where a lot of greens and browns are present. That is where the high CRI really stands out. I have compared the high CRI to some of my neutral white lights like the MiNi AA Q3 5A and the latest MiNi AA R4 neutral, and also Zebralight SC50w, and I find the high CRI still produces better color and depth rendition. The differences though may not be much but it does give me enough reasons to like the high CRI more than any neutral white lights I have.

Regards,
Andy


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## kaichu dento (Sep 28, 2010)

pjandyho said:


> I am sorry that you find the high CRI not up to your taste. I agree that the beam may be kind of weird with the cooler hotspot graduating into a warmer corona. I hardly use the high CRI at home with all the white wall around and since I have the 140GT as well as the 170T to keep me company, I prefer to use them instead of the high CRI.


I do like the high CRI emitters, but just as we keep looking for perfection, I personally have preference for the simple Cree emitters in warmer tints, where I generally have not seen the tint shift across the beam pattern as I have with the P4 and GDP emitters.


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## LEDAdd1ct (Apr 7, 2011)

I just read this thread over from start to end (not the first time, but needed a refresher), and unless I missed it, up until now the discussion has not included the new high CRI XP-G emitters and how they fare with respect to the thread title.

So:

Is there anyone out there who owns a "good" incan (as per the thread title) and a light with an XP-G of 90 CRI inside that would be willing to share their thoughts? Curious minds would like to know...


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## kromeke (Apr 7, 2011)

You guys sound like audiophiles with your "depth" and other intangibles. If it can't be measured, and you didn't do a double blind test, it doesn't register in my book. 

As far as I know, nobody has made an flashlight with an LED emitter with a 100 CRI. Doesn't yet exist, LEDs with a CRI at 100. Therefore, any comparison of an LED with a 100 CRI source will be skewed. 

I would also add that just because it is incandescent, doesn't mean it also has a color rendering index of 100. Not all incandescents are driven to the limit, because it limits lamp lifetime. 

I can believe that you guys have a preference for one source for another, whether it is LED or incandescent, but don't think that because of the technology, you cannot have equivalents.


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## csshih (Apr 7, 2011)

LEDAdd1ct said:


> Is there anyone out there who owns a "good" incan (as per the thread title) and a light with an XP-G of 90 CRI inside that would be willing to share their thoughts? Curious minds would like to know...


 
I met with a local cpf member at a coffee shop recently and we were talking flashlights - of course! He stated that he loved the tint of the P61 dropin, and was showing it to me.
Naturally, I pulled out a Malkoff M61HCRI and at first, he thought it was an incan!

Granted, we were shining it on some sort of tiled floor but that's how it went.

Now, when I got back home I was comparing it to incan P90s and P60s. The P90 and P60 were actually higher CCT than the 3000K (90+ CRI) XP-G, but I was using brand new batteries.
I wonder how much the incandescent bulb changes in CCT as the batteries drain?

-Craig


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## LEDAdd1ct (Apr 8, 2011)

Does anyone have beamshots of the XP-G 90 high CRI compared to a P60 incan?


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## purplequark (Jun 17, 2011)

of all the commercial LED offerings i have seen so far, no one has listed CRI to my knowledge.... usually only color temp in kelvins.

has anyone seen commercial LED for home/commercial use that specifies the CRI outright?

thanks.


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## Brasso (Jun 17, 2011)

The M61hcri has pretty much satisfied my incan craving. It's a tad warmer, but close enough for me. The additional run time seals the deal.


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## pjandyho (Jun 17, 2011)

Brasso said:


> The M61hcri has pretty much satisfied my incan craving. It's a tad warmer, but close enough for me. The additional run time seals the deal.


 
Agreed 100%


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## flashy bazook (Jun 23, 2011)

Don ("McGizmo") offers the new Nichia 183 LED in his line of custom flashlights (the "high CRI" versions).

I had the pleasure of taking one of these on a recent trip, including time spent outdoors, in a forest environment.

Very nice and useable. In terms of lumens, you get more than you would for the HDS (or "Ra") high CRI version, at least the version that used to be sold, since none are yet available in the new, rotary, version of the flashlight. Somewhere around 120+ lumens, vs. 100.

If you want a higher lumen option, I would suggest the Malkoff M31W drop-in, with a titanium VME head. Then just by switching heads on the McGizmo "pak", you can get a 210 lumen output in a warmer tint. I don't have that drop-in yet to provide an impression, but reviews I have read seem very positive. Before my next trip I hope to order the M31W, but that's not for several months yet.

Personally I prefer throw to flood, not least since it's very easy to carry a diffuser if I need flood (mainly indoors, and for reading). The reflector Don designed was amazing, giving out plenty of useable throw. So the Nichia 183 gives you both high CRI and does not sacrifice outdoors useability.

One more thing, if you examine the specs of the Nichia 183 (you can download the whole series in one brochure at the Nichia website), it looks to be ideally placed vs. the natural sunlight spectrum. Of course this would be an "average" light measurement since, as we all know, the LED spectrum frequency is hardly flat, but is generally speaking bimodal.

Anyway, I know Don's lights are expensive, but if price is no object, it's a wonderful solution.


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## kaichu dento (Jun 24, 2011)

Not a high CRI, but I compared my new Streamlight Scorpion to my warm MiNi this evening and loved both. From beam pattern to tint and the way colors rendered I found myself at once wishing I could dim the Scorpion, and thankful that I have some of the warm MiNi's.


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## LEDAdd1ct (Oct 29, 2014)

I'm waiting for an LED with 90+ CRI at around 3300K.


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## Timothybil (Oct 29, 2014)

Lumens Factory sells a 90 CRI D26(P60) drop in that is also available in neutral white. It is a Cree XP-G.
To quote from their specifications page:
_-High Output Cree XP-G, Warm White 90-CRI LED (Max Output 350 Lumens)
-3.6V-13V Regulated Input for Maximum Flexibility 
- 3 Mode (Low-Mid-High with Memory, 5%-30%-100%)
-Maximum Current Output at 1000mA
(Not Overdriven to Ensure Maximum Durablility and Reliability)
-Constant Output
-Warm White, Warm Colour Temperature (2600K-3200K)
-90-CRI, Ultra High Colour Rendition_

Since this is a drop in the lumens quoted are die lumens, I believe.

I have one and compared it to a P60 that came with my G2. It is just not quite as yellow, but comes very close to matching the P60.


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## the.Mtn.Man (Oct 29, 2014)

Wow, this thread is an oldie but goodie.

My current everyday carry is a high CRI HDS Rotary using a Cree emitter (I forget which kind exactly, probably an XP-G) that outputs around 3700K with a CRI of 90+ (interestingly, 3700K is a tint that most people tend to perceive as neutral). I recently compared it to an old school incandescent Surefire, and in terms of tint and color rendering, the output of each light was indistinguishable to my eye, so needless to say, I'm extremely happy with the Rotary and will be hanging on to it for a very long time. The bad news is that HDS had to discontinue their high CRI offering because Henry was having too much trouble finding emitters that were within spec. I think the closest thing he offers now is a 4400K emitter with an 85+ CRI.


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## kaichu dento (Oct 29, 2014)

the.Mtn.Man said:


> Wow, this thread is an oldie but goodie.
> 
> My current everyday carry is a high CRI HDS Rotary using a Cree emitter (I forget which kind exactly, probably an XP-G) that outputs around 3700K with a CRI of 90+ (interestingly, 3700K is a tint that most people tend to perceive as neutral). I recently compared it to an old school incandescent Surefire, and in terms of tint and color rendering, the output of each light was indistinguishable to my eye, so needless to say, I'm extremely happy with the Rotary and will be hanging on to it for a very long time. The bad news is that HDS had to discontinue their high CRI offering because Henry was having too much trouble finding emitters that were within spec. I think the closest thing he offers now is a 4400K emitter with an 85+ CRI.


I had a Clicky that I'd put a hCRI XP-G into as well and I really loved that light and it's completely incandescent output. 
Unfortunately it had problems and when I sent it to Henry he ended up sending me a new light, hence I lost that emitter. Maybe I need to get another mod done...


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## LEDAdd1ct (Oct 29, 2014)

To me, it is no longer about being close—

I want an _exact_ duplicate. 

The SSC P4 I tried was too cool, and I didn't like the XP-G2 hi-CRI or Nichias at all.

I am confident in the next five years we will see the efficiency, CRI, and CCT I desire.

It's just a matter of waiting.


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## the.Mtn.Man (Oct 29, 2014)

kaichu dento said:


> I had a Clicky that I'd put a hCRI XP-G into as well and I really loved that light and it's completely incandescent output.
> Unfortunately it had problems and when I sent it to Henry he ended up sending me a new light, hence I lost that emitter. Maybe I need to get another mod done...


Wow, he honored the warranty even though you had modified the light? That's pretty impressive.


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## the.Mtn.Man (Oct 29, 2014)

LEDAdd1ct said:


> To me, it is no longer about being close—
> 
> I want an _exact_ duplicate.
> 
> The SSC P4 I tried was too cool, and I didn't like the XP-G2 hi-CRI or Nichias at all.


To my eyes, the high CRI XP-G in my Rotary is not merely close to incandescent, it's a dead match. I even had a co-worker mistake it for an incan, and he was greatly surprised when I told him it was LED.


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## Newguy2012 (Oct 29, 2014)

LEDAdd1ct said:


> To me, it is no longer about being close—
> 
> I want an _exact_ duplicate.
> 
> ...


So you don't like all LEDs currently made now is what you're saying? I don't you'll see CRI higher than 96. I don't think you'll see a difference with cri < 5 points.


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## pjandyho (Oct 29, 2014)

the.Mtn.Man said:


> Wow, this thread is an oldie but goodie.
> 
> My current everyday carry is a high CRI HDS Rotary using a Cree emitter (I forget which kind exactly, probably an XP-G) that outputs around 3700K with a CRI of 90+ (interestingly, 3700K is a tint that most people tend to perceive as neutral). I recently compared it to an old school incandescent Surefire, and in terms of tint and color rendering, the output of each light was indistinguishable to my eye, so needless to say, I'm extremely happy with the Rotary and will be hanging on to it for a very long time. The bad news is that HDS had to discontinue their high CRI offering because Henry was having too much trouble finding emitters that were within spec. I think the closest thing he offers now is a 4400K emitter with an 85+ CRI.





the.Mtn.Man said:


> To my eyes, the high CRI XP-G in my Rotary is not merely close to incandescent, it's a dead match. I even had a co-worker mistake it for an incan, and he was greatly surprised when I told him it was LED.


Very true indeed. I won't be selling my HDS High CRI Rotary. It is so close to my incandescent Surefire it is almost too difficult to tell them apart. In fact, amongst all my lights using a warm tint High CRI XP-G emitter, none is as close as the ones on my HDS. I really believe it when Henry claimed that he had to sieve through all the emitters in the batch to source for emitters meeting the above 90 CRI mark. My Malkoff drop in is slightly rosy in tint and my FourSevens is pee yellow, and both are using High CRI XP-G emitters. This really reinforced my love for the HDS Rotary. I just bought a neutral Rotary with Nichia 219 and it doesn't see much love from me.


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## burntoshine (Oct 29, 2014)

That has become my tint of preference; incandescent-like. I guess it's in the mid 3k range; perhaps 3700k. I like the idea of high color rendering, but it's mainly that warm tint that reminds me of old school incandescent lights that I love. It's so cozy and pleasant!! I tolerate neutral tints (my Zebra herd, for instance), but I prefer that 3700k-ish tint when possible. And I too see that tint as nearly identical to incans; if not, then completely identical.

Something funny I noticed on the netflix show, The Killing: I think it's either the episode "keylela" or "off the reservation" from the second season. Linden is walking with a search party at night and they all have flashlights out. Everyone has cool tinted flashlights, except for Linden. She has a warmer tinted flashlight, and only her. To me it was obvious, but I'm a flashaholic. I thought it was odd, but pretty neat, too. Awesome show! Currently addicted. Twin Peaks vibe, fo sho.

EDIT: my flashlight collection. (new additions not pictured: ZL SC52w and H600w mkII)


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## calipsoii (Oct 29, 2014)

3700k is the sweet spot for me right now. Been working a lot with LED's in that temperature range lately and it's certainly the most comfortable to use at night. The cooler N219 and super warm 3000k lamps just don't do it for me anymore.


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## scout24 (Oct 29, 2014)

I still think they are completely different animals. I love my 219B Rotary, 219B Nailbender P60 dropins, Tana's 219A Singled, 119V Haiku and Mule, Malkoff (Illumination Supply) M61 219B's in whatever output power level I choose, and use them all, but they are all different than a hard-driven incand. Getting closer? Yes. There yet? No... The Nailbenders in HAIII C2's have become my LED dog walking lights of choice, with an E2e/ MN02 or a G3/ P90 along as well. I hope Cree, Nichia, and the rest keep trying though!


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## Timothybil (Oct 29, 2014)

The big thing for me is that they are a big improvement over the cool white tints so prevalent in many LED lights. If absolute color rendition were so important to me, I still have two P60s stored away, and would pay the penalty in run time to use them. Since I prize improved run time over absolute color rendition, I am just glad that there has been such an improvement in CRI over the last couple of years. Unless I find some light I absolutely _must have_ that is only available in cool white, I don't plan on buying anything else but high CRI lights from now on. 

I am also looking forward to the advent of LED IIs, or XYZs, or whatever, in the next few years that will surpass existing LED technology. I know there is research going on to find something even more efficient and more color-accurate than existing LEDs.


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## LEDAdd1ct (Oct 29, 2014)

Newguy2012 said:


> So you don't like all LEDs currently made now is what you're saying? I don't you'll see CRI higher than 96. I don't think you'll see a difference with cri < 5 points.



No, I am not saying I don't like all LEDs made now.

I like many LEDs.

However, I have not yet found one, in my use, which is a "dead ringer".

I firmly believe that one day I will.

And it is not hitting 96, 97, or 100 CRI I am waiting for—

it is having 90+ CRI _and_ the right CCT.

I like all my lights, and use them for different things.

I agree 100% on not seeing a difference of six points in CRI.

However, I _do_ believe my eyes are sensitive enough to discern differences in tint, such as rosy, yellowy, or blue,
and color temperature, too high, too low, or just right. 

My most frequently used light is a U.S. Government CMG Infinity Ultra on a long closed loop of GITD paracord.
I love that light and use it every night, even though I don't love the tint.
That is okay.

My point is that I am patient and can enjoy using the lights I have now while waiting for the technology to advance.


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## kaichu dento (Oct 30, 2014)

LEDAdd1ct said:


> To me, it is no longer about being close—
> 
> I want an _exact_ duplicate.
> 
> ...


I see you didn't mention the one that we've been talking about, the original hCRI XP-G. When you say exact duplicate, it makes me wonder if you're aware what a wide range incandescent lights come in.

At any rate, the first hCRI XP-G's are perfect for those of us who are no less picky and I think if you track one down you'll be pretty damn happy.


the.Mtn.Man said:


> Wow, he honored the warranty even though you had modified the light? That's pretty impressive.


Yeah, he's Henry. 



the.Mtn.Man said:


> To my eyes, the high CRI XP-G in my Rotary is not merely close to incandescent, it's a dead match. I even had a co-worker mistake it for an incan, and he was greatly surprised when I told him it was LED.


Yep, me too. No on believes it could possibly be an LED until you show them.


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## LEDAdd1ct (Nov 3, 2014)

kaichu dento said:


> I see you didn't mention the one that we've been talking about, the original hCRI XP-G. When you say exact duplicate, it makes me wonder if you're aware what a wide range incandescent lights come in.



Hi, kaichu. 

1) No, I did not mention that specific light, though I have used the hi-CRI XP-G2. I may put it on my "lights to check out" list.

2) You are right, of course—the lone incandescent light above the kitchen sink it rated for 2700K while the object of my craving is a full 600 degrees K higher. Perhaps I ought to be more precise in my language.


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## kaichu dento (Nov 3, 2014)

LEDAdd1ct said:


> Hi, kaichu.
> 
> 1) No, I did not mention that specific light, though I have used the hi-CRI XP-G2. I may put it on my "lights to check out" list.
> 
> 2) You are right, of course—the lone incandescent light above the kitchen sink it rated for 2700K while the object of my craving is a full 600 degrees K higher. Perhaps I ought to be more precise in my language.


I bet IF you could find one of the older hCRI XP-G’s that you'd like it a lot.


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