# Another boat/nav. LED light question



## zuren (Oct 8, 2007)

As you can see I'm new here and have a problem I'm trying to solve.

I just bought a kayak for fishing that will eventually have a 12v 7+ Ah battery onboard to run a depth finder. I want to be able to fish into the dark, so I want to install some running/navigation lights. Since I will have a nice battery, I thought I would buy some marine specific LED navigation lights (red, green and rear white mast), run some wires to a small switch panel in a waterproof area and have a nice clean setup. Easier said than done. Either the housings are bigger than I want to have mounted, they aren't LED, or they are LED and REALLY expensive.

My question is has anyone adapted any commecially available LEDs as running lights on a watercraft, or converted an incandescent housing to LED? Ideally, I would like to convert something like this to LED, I'm just not certain how hard that would be:

http://www.trickmarine.net/images/productimages/000-0001aaa.jpg

Technically, I don't need to have a red/green bow light on a paddlecraft but as a boater, I like to see these colors since I know it is a watercraft and not some light from shore.

I looked at the LEDs at www.superbrightleds.com and I like how low profile they are but I'm worried that the wide angle on some of them will shine back into my face (unless I were to fabricate a shield).

Just looking for experiences or input. Thanks!


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## RonM (Oct 8, 2007)

As you seem to already know, you don't need traditional boat marker lights for your kayak, but I've gotta agree with the idea showing a light full time for safety. However, I disagree with having port and starboard lighting. Just too complicated and IMHO little benefit. I think showing a 360 degree white anchor light would be best. It would make you visible, and since LED lights are pricey you get a way with just one light versus multiple fixtures. I'd also wear a very bright flashlight that can be turned on one handed, around my neck to quickly shine at boats that are coming too close.

I've been out at night in small sailboats, with just a flashlight. The idea being that you light the sail if you hear a boat approaching. Bad idea. More than once we didn't hear large boats until they had already passed us. SCARY!


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## Mash (Oct 9, 2007)

Can you use a flashing/strobing setup? Or would that be against sea NAV laws?


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## saildude (Oct 9, 2007)

Rule 37 - Distress Signals - Inland Waters - "A high intensity white light flashing at regular intervals from 50 to 70 times per minute" is an additional Distress Signal allowed.

Rule 36 - Signals to Attract Attention - International - Indicates not to use high intensity intermittent or revolving lights such as strobe lights, shall be avoided - also that a light to attract attention shall not be such as to be mistaken for any aid to navigation.

So if you are on a lake a strobe might be mistaken for a distress signal.

There are a couple of companies that make LED navigation lights for small boats - they are a bit expensive but so can a DIY project - 

A single all around white light while being technically illegal ( it indicates a vessel less than 50 meters in length at anchor or a power boat under 7 meters whose maximum speed is less than 7 knots )

That said - I doubt that the CG or other Law Enforce types would give you much grief with a single white light - A single white light would have an advantage of getting it up off the water easily where it would be more visible.

If you want the regular type nav. lights - look at the marine supply places before spending a lot on a DIY project - there are some real specific rules for the distance Nav lights need to be visible and the color etc.

good luck

mb


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## BIGIRON (Oct 9, 2007)

I would elevate and baffle (or shield underneath) a single white light , much like the stern light for a smaller motorboat. There are readily available with just a socket mount and removable pole. Pretty sure I'veseen them in composite, which would be best for a marine environment.

From an experience standpoint, I would baffle the light to avoid casting light on the deck or fittings to avoid glare. That can be blinding at night.

A combo red/green bow light shouldn't be much challenge but I think it would be overkill.

Actually, this is one of the few situations where the strobe function on some of the popular lights might actually have some use. It could be used situationally to alert other craft.

I assume you will avoid heavily traveled waterways, especially at night. To paraphrase an aviation trueism - "There are old kayakers and bold kayakers but no old bold kayakers".

Good luck. I caught two nice redfish from my kayak yesterday afternoon.


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## wasBlinded (Oct 9, 2007)

I converted an incandescent port/starboard red/green light to LED for a sailboat. Driving a green luxeon and a red luxeon at 350 mA in series gave me an extremely bright nav light. Probably driving them at 120 mA would have been plenty and still brighter than the original red and green filtered incandescent bulb.

Having these lights on a kayak is not a bad idea, even though not legally required. In a small craft on the water at night, you really do want to be easily seen by larger and more powerful vessels!

As mentioned above, you would want to take special care to baffle them so you aren't blinded by your own light.

Or, you can just buy this:
http://www.tek-tite.com/src/product_info.php?id=2162
They are a bit overpriced for what they are, but they would serve the purpose. Though they are red and green, the LED inside is just a white 5mm LED with a colored filter. The LED is driven through a current limiting resistor - no fancy circuits. Just for fun, I replaced the white LEDs in mine with red and green Luxeon emitters. They are a bit brighter that way, but they were just fine the way they were.


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## cliff (Oct 10, 2007)

Zuren:

Last year I got a couple navigation lights from Eddie Bauer which are pretty good. They are waterproof, strongly made, use 4xAAA and have nine 5mm LEDs apiece. Three red and three green on the sides, with three white in the middle. They can be set by twist switch to either white, flashing white or red/green navigation. Burn time is about 10+ hours on NIMH.

They have a magnet on the bottom and fit into a suctioncup receptacle which can be stuck to flat surfaces. I don't do much running around in the dark, but use one on the bow deckplate and one on top of the outboard if lights become necessary. These would probably work very well on a kayak/canoe.

Unfortunately, the only manufacturer information on them is "Eddie Bauer" and I threw away the boxes. You might contact Eddie Bauer and see if they have any if you are interested.


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## Lyndon (Oct 10, 2007)

I can't point to the actual regulation (I was trained as a Merchant ship's officer in a "previous life" but don't have those books available), but any vessel can be lighted legally, it's just a matter of how. IIRC for unpowered vessels below 7 meters (?) at night, the only requirement is that they show a nondirectional white light if collision may occur. IOW, while it's a good idea to have a light all the time, you only need to display it if someone is coming in your direction.

That said, there are a number of companies making nav lights with LEDs, I remember seeing a small business online in the South Pacific that sold an anchor light for about $200 which I thought was kinda steep considering how homemade it looked.


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## Buck (Oct 10, 2007)

Lyndon said:


> I can't point to the actual regulation (I was trained as a Merchant ship's officer in a "previous life" but don't have those books available), but any vessel can be lighted legally, it's just a matter of how. IIRC for unpowered vessels below 7 meters (?) at night, the only requirement is that they show a nondirectional white light if collision may occur. IOW, while it's a good idea to have a light all the time, you only need to display it if someone is coming in your direction



International rules just say "vessel propelled by oars" without regard to length, I believe. Inland rules are probably essentially the same, but my night paddling is pretty much all on water that is "international," even Lake Washington, IIRC. 

But in addition to "a white light ready to show in time to show a collision," a human powered vessel MAY display the same lights as a sailboat up to 12 meters. My reference is an old edition of Chapman Piloting, so these are the 1972 regs!

It is NOT legal to show an all-around white light and red/green bow lights, since that is a powerboat rig. A kayak should have the white light only over the stern, which is convenient since you can just strap a flashlight on your rear deck. Following another boat with a bright light on the stern isn't too fun, though!

More that I wrote recently with specifics about the lights at post #74
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2162187

A photo of my kayak with the first version of my lightboard:
[img=http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/1769/1020300imgjc0.th.jpg]

I found the back-scatter off the white board annoying, so I finally put a lid on it as shown here:
[img=http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/7379/img1614tm8.th.jpg]

[img=http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/8940/img1615mk7.th.jpg]

The first version of the lid wasn't long enough, which is the only reason the top is made of two pieces. A big improvement in enjoyment of use, although I still prefer no lights (particularly on the bow) when I'm not in an area with significant risk of collision.

The lightboard is just made of cheap 1/4" luan plywood, heavily slathered with epoxy and painted white. I've never dropped anything really heavy on it, but it's durable enough. A couple of notches hold the deck bungies.


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## Buck (Oct 10, 2007)

zuren said:


> Technically, I don't need to have a red/green bow light on a paddlecraft but as a boater, I like to see these colors since I know it is a watercraft and not some light from shore.



The only "problem" with having good lights is that you may not be recognized as a kayak. 

A couple of months ago I was crossing Puget Sound just after full dark with 2 other kayaks. I had my usual lights (see previous post), one of the other boats had a tiny 3-light device mounted on the foredeck (I didn't bother to note much about it; I didn't like it and would only want to know the brand name to warn others against it) and the 3rd boat had a white bike light with near-dead batteries, visible for barely 100 feet!

We had contacted Vessel Traffic Service by VHF radio to find out if any big, fast traffic would be coming along (e.g. container ships), and could hear VTS telling a couple of tugs about us a little later. I saw one tug about a mile over my left shoulder swing a searchlight around near their boat, then report to VTS that they didn't see any kayaks. I know my lights would have been visible, but not the other kayaks, so I'm fairly sure they could see me but thought I was a little sailboat or slow powerboat (which would have looked the same from that angle). 

I should have called them and reassured them that we were not on their course, but I didn't have my radio out at the time. Also, I couldn't remember that I should call them on channel 13 and wasn't sure I should be putting that much chatter on the VTS channel. So, while lights are great, I'd also STRONGLY suggest having a submersible handheld VHF teathered to your PFD and reviewing how to use it regularly. These radios are now available with good features (Li-ion battery, really good waterproofing) for around $150, so it's cheap insurance.


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## wasBlinded (Oct 10, 2007)

Buck said:


> It is NOT legal to show an all-around white light and red/green bow lights, since that is a powerboat rig. A kayak should have the white light only over the stern, which is convenient since you can just strap a flashlight on your rear deck. Following another boat with a bright light on the stern isn't too fun, though!


 
Your statement is a bit misleading. It is perfectly legal for a sailboat and a kayak to display a white stern light and red/green bow lights (sidelights) - these are most definitely not limited to powerboats. If you really meant to say an "all around white light" is not legal in conjunction with red/green sidelights, then you are right. A legal stern light for a sailboat or kayak would be one that displays white in a 135 degree arc across the stern.

See:
http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/mwv/navrules/rules/Rule25.htm


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## Buck (Oct 10, 2007)

wasBlinded said:


> If you really meant to say an "all around white light" is not legal in conjunction with red/green sidelights, then you are right.



WTF? That is exactly what I DID say. It's the first sentence you quoted.



> A legal stern light for a sailboat or kayak would be one that displays white in a 135 degree arc across the stern.



And while a flashlight aimed along the centerline over the stern does not typically PRECISELY match this arc, it's a fair approximation, although there is a weak spill visible out to the beam in most cases. I'll also admit that my bow lights are not cut off exactly 22.5 degrees behind the beam, but again they become less apparent seen from farther back (and are eventually eclipsed entirely). In both cases the exact angle over which the lights could be seen would be dependent on distance since the intensity changes drastically from hotspot to spill to scatter. But a paddling buddy with a similar setup (using the TekTite lights) and I observed each other from about 1000 yards, and the effect was essentially as desired.


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## Buck (Oct 10, 2007)

wasBlinded said:


> Or, you can just buy this:
> http://www.tek-tite.com/src/product_info.php?id=2162
> They are a bit overpriced for what they are, but they would serve the purpose. Though they are red and green, the LED inside is just a white 5mm LED with a colored filter.



The base model for that setup
http://www.tek-tite.com/src/product_info.php?id=33
is, or was last summer, available as a kit for about $15, which is what my paddling buddy built up his lights from to cut costs. 
He said about all he had to do was solder the LEDs to a board. Unfortunately, he didn't take the chance to replace the white LEDs with 5 mm reds and greens.

I can't find the Mark III kit on the website now, although the Trek 4 model was in the kit section, and would be very similar to what I am using. 



> The LED is driven through a current limiting resistor - no fancy circuits. Just for fun, I replaced the white LEDs in mine with red and green Luxeon emitters. They are a bit brighter that way, but they were just fine the way they were.



Nice. That would be pretty much the Holy Grail! Which model Lux?


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## 96TL (Oct 25, 2007)

Check these out. I use them on my boat and love them. The LEDs look like lasers at night.

http://www.innovativelight.com/led-combination-sidelight---deck-mount_p_1471_11564_2.cfm


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## ViperV (Oct 28, 2007)

Under 7 meters / 7 Knots - One 360 degree white light. State Regulations may vary.


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## zuren (Oct 29, 2007)

Sorry I've been absent from the discussion and thanks for all the feed back so far!

As far as I know, the current regulation that I MUST abide by is a single 360 degree white light for operating at night. This I what I'm required to have or risk citation (aside from having a death wish).

As far as the red/green not being legal on a paddle craft, the powers that be may say that it is not legal, but I don't buy why it wouldn't be a prefered setup from a rational/logical standpoint. What's the difference between my 16' kayak with me paddling all out vs. a 14' motor boat moving at idle speed? I'm technically bigger and potentially moving faster. What Coast Guard or sheriff's patrol is going to cite you for having better lighting than some committee of beaurocrats says you are supposed to have?

I've been fishing/powerboating for 21+ years and on a typical evening trip on Lake Michigan, we are coming back in the dark. No matter how many times I've run the same course returning to dock, single white lights freak me out; is it an anchor light, is it a bouy, is it a landscaping light illuminating someone's walkway on shore, is it someone's security light on a garage on the other side of the lake, is it a car headlight, is it someone's latern who is fishing on shore, is it a lamp on someone's desk shining through a window, or is it a canoe/kayak that I need to worry about running over? If every watercraft had the red/green bow lights, you instantly identify yourself to any other vessel on the water that you are a watercraft and you are occupied/under way and not confused as anything else.


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