# ROP Replacement Candidates!



## Daekar (Nov 13, 2007)

So with the recent news and speculation about the possible discontinued production about the Big-D Spotlight bulb sets, I've been wondering about the fate of the manifold ROPs out there. Lets say the bulbs dry up tomorrow... what will you be doing with your ROPs? I'm hoping for an approximately equivalent solution which will drop in - what about a 5761 bulb set in a ceramic bi-pin holder? Should be a little brighter and take about the same voltage, yes? Or do those insta-flash too easily? I really appreciate how easy it was to build my ROP (a gateway light, as some have put it) and how it's "brought hotwires to the masses"... heh heh. Would be nice to keep that going.

Allow me to propose some rough guidelines:

Same BL as ROP +/- 10%
7.2V tolerant
drop-in (as in no driver _necessary_ - bulbs _requiring_ soft-start/drivers aren't drop-in)

So... any ideas?

EDIT: So far, we have...

ROP-Hi:
~ _Philips 5761_ - 30W, 6V stock rating. Overdriven to 7.2V @ 5+ amps pushes about 250 more lumens vs. ROP-Hi. Current draw makes this less appropriate for cheap batteries. Bi-pin bulb, requires ceramic base.
~ _WA1111_ - 18.9W, 6V stock rating. Overdriven to 7.2 @ 3.15+ amps pushes about 100-200 lumens less vs. ROP-Hi. Current draw makes this a better choice for cheap batteries. KevinL spectulates that it may be brighter than ROP-Hi was on cheap batts because of lower current drain and less associated voltage sag. Bi-pin bulb, requires ceramic base.

ROP-Lo:
~ _WA1165_ - 11.22W 6V stock rating. Overdriven to 7.2V @ 1.87+ amps pushes about the same as ROP-Lo (I think). Bi-pin bulb, requires ceramic base.
~ Carley 1057 - 12W 6V stock rating. Overdriven to 7.2V @ 2.00+ amps pushes about 450 BL. Bi-pin bulb, requires ceramic base.


----------



## KevinL (Nov 13, 2007)

This 5761 you speak of; it is very interesting....

http://www.bulbconnection.com/ViewItem/bcrw/itmid/1479/oc/5761/item.html

30W, 6V, fits the ROP profile perfectly. One aspect of concern is that it is MORE abusive to cells than the ROP is, because 30W/6V = 5 amps. The ROP pulled around 4 amps. The primary concern is that people USE CHEAP BATTERIES despite advice not to do so, and 5 amps IS a very abusive discharge load for consumer-grade cells. Of course the high-amp cells would walk away, no problem here. 

We're looking at something like ~250 extra lumens when pushed to 7.2V vs the ROP bulb. 


A lower-powered option, but less demanding on the cells, is the WA1111. 3.15 amps at 6V with some tolerance of overdrive. ~100-200 less lumens than the ROP bulb. Paradoxically, it may be BRIGHTER than the ROP bulb on less-than-high-current cells because it doesn't load them as heavily. Cell voltage drops under high amp loadings, so if the bulb pulls less amps, it may actually get more volts, making up the difference, rather than creating a situation where it has neither enough amps nor volts.


----------



## Daekar (Nov 13, 2007)

KevinL said:


> This 5761 you speak of; it is very interesting....
> 
> http://www.bulbconnection.com/ViewItem/bcrw/itmid/1479/oc/5761/item.html
> 
> ...



Ha! That's funny about the WA1111, I never thought of that possibility... it would be amusing if it were brighter for some people. So... that's two possibilities then! The WA1111 if you have cheap batteries, Philips 5761 if you have high-drains. A few things... the 5761 is a bi-pin bulb and so requires the appropriate base to be purchased (available on CPF already), is the WA1111 a PR base? NM, looked it up, it's bi-pin.

Now that we have two possible ROP-Hi substitutes, what about a low bulb? That would have to be pushing what... ~400-450 BL @ 7.2V? How about a WA1164 (bi-pin)? I did a quick and dirty rerate on the WA site and came up with this. Recommended drive specs are 19.68W, 6V @ 3.28 amp draw... About 570 BL @ 7.2V, but I don't have an associated current rating. That may not be a great idea though, because it looks like it suffers from poor efficiency. Hrmm... what about WA1165 (bi-pin)? That looks a bit more friendly after rerating, with tamer recommended drive specs being 11.22W, 6V @ 1.87 amp draw... about 449 BL @ 7.2V, again I don't have associated current ratings. 

Of course... these all seem to be bi-pin bulbs. Either that means that there are some CPFers that are going to be selling a LOT of bi-pin holders (not a bad thing - higher volume means lower prices and higher quality!), or we need to find some PR base bulbs. Any other suggestions?


----------



## KevinL (Nov 13, 2007)

Yeah I just saw FM's 5th run of bipin sockets. 

Litho123 has the bipin and potted WA1111's. The potted ones are temporarily out of stock. I recommend the bipin adapters since the potted ones are 'seasonal' and can be hard to get. Not his fault, just the way things work. That was what inspired the ROP in the first place. 

From his thread: 
Bi-Pin WA 01111: 6.0v 3.35a @ spec (465 b-lumens) / 7.2v (880 b-lumens)
... only (2) for 18.00 .... or (3) for 26.00

Bi-Pin Carley 1057: 6.0v 2.0a @ spec (239 b-lumens) / 7.2v (450 b-lumens)
... only (2) for 16.00 .... or (3) for 24.00



The bipin 1057 looks interesting and this could be our low output lamp. At 6V 2A it fits almost the exact profile as the ROP-Low (6V 1.98A by my measurement - close enough)


----------



## zehnmm (Nov 13, 2007)

Two other possibilities from the Osram camp:
1. Osram 64250 -- G4 base, specs = 6v, 20W, 3.33 amps, 480 bulb lumens, 100 hr. life, 3200 temp. I have gotten 25-30 min. runtime out of this with Eneloops. Using the re-rating formulae, I calculate torch lumens at 535 assuming 7V. I think I paid less than $3 each for these bulbs. Requires an FM G4 bi-pin adapter https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/179891, plus the usual glass lens and metal reflector.
2. Osram 64275 -- G4 base, specs = 6V, 35W, 5.83 amps, 780 bulb lumens, 50 hr. life. My runtime at about 18-22 min. with Eneloops, in short runs, like 2-3 min. I estimate 870 torch lumens at 7V. Recall that price is in $6 to 7 range. This gets pretty darn hot and challenges all but the best AAs. Too much draw, imho, for the AW C-li-ions. This option is an alternative to the 5761. I prefer the 5761 over this option, because for about one less amp you get similar torch lumens.

Cheers to all.


----------



## bxstylez (Nov 13, 2007)

zehnmm said:


> Two other possibilities from the Osram camp:
> 1. Osram 64250 -- G4 base, specs = 6v, 20W, 3.33 amps, 480 bulb lumens, 100 hr. life, 3200 temp. I have gotten 25-30 min. runtime out of this with Eneloops. Using the re-rating formulae, I calculate torch lumens at 535 assuming 7V. I think I paid less than $3 each for these bulbs. Requires an FM G4 bi-pin adapter https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/179891, plus the usual glass lens and metal reflector.
> 2. Osram 64275 -- G4 base, specs = 6V, 35W, 5.83 amps, 780 bulb lumens, 50 hr. life. My runtime at about 18-22 min. with Eneloops, in short runs, like 2-3 min. I estimate 870 torch lumens at 7V. Recall that price is in $6 to 7 range. This gets pretty darn hot and challenges all but the best AAs. Too much draw, imho, for the AW C-li-ions. This option is an alternative to the 5761. I prefer the 5761 over this option, because for about one less amp you get similar torch lumens.
> 
> Cheers to all.


 


very useful info!
these are cheap alternatives to rop bulbs as well :twothumbs

.


----------



## mdocod (Nov 13, 2007)

[edit in]bah just noticed zehnmm beat me to some of these, lol.... been spending too much time ion the reply box getting sidetracked.. oh well...
here's some ideas... But I think they will only work on "consumer" style cells, high current cells will probably blow these lamps.. 

Osram 54261

Philips 25678-4

Ushio 1000532

those 3 lamps are rated 20W 6V 100 hour. I think resistance would be your friend here in a 7.2V application where fresh off the charger they could see even more than that... By my calculations these bulbs should run around 850 bulb lumen and around 3.66A with a life of around 10 hours at 7.2 Bulb volts. (or basically about 26W, very close to an ROP high, just slightly under). These are all G4 bi-pin so will work in a bi-pin adapter... I just ordered 2 KD bi-pin adapters to try out.... I may order up some bulbs like this to try as well... The KD adapter is only like $4 IIRC so it's a bargain... provided it can handle the heat and current of more powerful lamps... 



Another interesting lamp to mention is the Osram 54258, also apparently called the 64275. This is also a 6V G4 bi-pin lamp, but it is rated 35W and only 50 hours life at 6V, so this sucker would possibly flash on some 2xli-ion and 6xNIMH configurations especially on a fresh charge, but I *think* this could be a very duty-friendly light on a 5 cell application, where it would actually maintain near it's full ~50 hours life on some high current cells... It would be interesting to experiment with what configurations work on with 6 cells... thinking maybe some decent cells that can take the abuse but won't deliver toooo much voltage, like eneloops, which seem to handle the abuse well, but will sag.... Leave resistance of the mag in place to help save the bulb... Might work pretty well.. should be around 1500 B-Lumens 7.2V if it can handle it..


There are also some 6V MR-16s out there that make for nice cheap solutions since you don't have to buy a reflector OR lens... so the cost of the bi-pin base is easily recovered... I think for folks who are trying to get into magmods on the cheap, the MR-16 solution is ideal and should be considered the next option in the line next to the ROP for simplicity and price...


----------



## MikeSalt (Nov 13, 2007)

How long do Pelican provide product support for? If the Big-D were a Volkswagen, we could expect part support for 15 years. I hope the same is true of the 3854 bulb kit.


----------



## mdocod (Nov 13, 2007)

interesting question is... who is actually MAKING that the Big-D bulbs... In most cases the flashlight manufacture is NOT the bulb manufacture, it is usually outsourced to someone... so if they do decide to discontinue the lamp... it might be worth it to do some investigations and find out where the lamp is coming from, maybe we could get another source opened up if pelican drops it.


----------



## FlashSpyJ (Nov 13, 2007)

I knew I had some ulterior motive why I bought so many spare ROP bulbs... 

I think Im going to be good for a while, but its nice to know that theres alternatives, and what they are!


----------



## Brozneo (Nov 13, 2007)

I'd recommend the WA1111 - really nice white beam!


----------



## KevinL (Nov 13, 2007)

Good suggestions - any links to the 6V MR16s? I experimented with MR16s back in the days when NOBODY had a suitable base (hard as it is to recall such a time  ) and they had a nice beam, ease of use, no reflector issues, just that they wouldn't electrically connect to anything we used 

Now of course, things are different. 

How are the KD adapters?


----------



## lctorana (Nov 13, 2007)

As a direct replacement for the RoP-low, I heartily recommend the Philips HPR71.

It is a PR flange bulb, and physically resembles the RoP-high. It is also very tolerant of being overdriven. It is a halogen bulb, with nice white light.

Specs:


```
Type     Volts      Watts     Claimed Lumens
3854L      6          11          290
HPR71      6          10          210
```
 
Just like the WA1111, if you have wiring resistance or battery ESR, it may match or even exceed the RoP-low for lumens. I say it's an excellent substitute. Made by Philips Germany.

I have noticed it for sale online from German and Dutch sources, but it is commonly available in Australia (e.g. Bunnings) as an OEM replacement for the Dolphin Rechageable.


----------



## KevinL (Nov 13, 2007)

Hmm! Sounds interesting. 

The ROP-Lo is, as mentioned, a lower-power option. Outrageous lumens is not its goal, so the HPR71 looks as if it will do the job perfectly. Plug and play with a PR base too.. cool!


----------



## Daekar (Nov 13, 2007)

Hrmm... I like this there seem to be lots of 6V bulb options for overdriving. Any information about output for the Philips HPR71 when driven at 7.2V?


----------



## KevinL (Nov 14, 2007)

Daekar said:


> Hrmm... I like this there seem to be lots of 6V bulb options for overdriving. Any information about output for the Philips HPR71 when driven at 7.2V?



Plugging the numbers into an incan rerater.. (numbers should be used as a GUIDELINE ONLY, they are not exact and do not account for many other factors such as shortened bulb life)

378.59 bLu at 7.2V

246.08 tLu output lumens actually making it out of the front of the light after derating for losses

Hmm.. Surefire P91 class output lumens :twothumbs

It takes a flashaholic to call 250 tLu 'Low beam'


----------



## KevinL (Nov 14, 2007)

MikeSalt said:


> How long do Pelican provide product support for? If the Big-D were a Volkswagen, we could expect part support for 15 years. I hope the same is true of the 3854 bulb kit.



As I guessed, 12 months maybe, to enable users to transition to another platform. I'm hoping it's longer than that. 

Actually, a good idea might be to ask them directly instead of guessing. Just call or email and inquire how long #3854 bulbs for the Big-D will be available for, after the end-of-sales for the Big D.

Me? I'm probably gonna buy a dozen spare 3854's and a couple of bipin adapters. Then it's Philips 5671 (4D/six Sub-C) and WA1111 (li-ion) from then on. 

The WA1111 may be better for li-ion because it does not cause the voltage to sag as much. When building the ROP/LE (2x18650) I noticed significant voltage losses, dropping to less than 7V even with fully charged cells. Side-by-side visual 'integrating sphere' confirms that there IS a substantial loss in output lumens. This loss is not an issue for high-amperage NiMH (mine are 30A rated). 

I also confirmed that the difference between the two lights was much less significant with the low-output lamps installed in both, as the 2A draw caused much less voltage sag.


----------



## KevinL (Nov 14, 2007)

Hang on, are we working ourselves into a panic over nothing at all? 

I can't find any reference to a product EOL/EOS on Pelican's site. Dealers don't usually qualify. I don't take EOL seriously until a manufacturer announces it. 

The dealers are saying that the Big D *ALKALINE* has been discontinued (doesn't bother me) and the Big D NiCad has been discontinued. Both of these are correct, and Pelican specifically stated the NiCad version was being upgraded to the current NiMH version (which makes sense). So even if the 8W alkaline #3804 (note the different number, and they package 2x8W bulbs instead of 1x24W/1x11W in the same blister pack) supply dried up overnight, it wouldn't hurt us THAT much.

The NiMH version still seems to be widely available and as such our stock of spare bulbs aren't going to go away.


----------



## PhantomPhoton (Nov 14, 2007)

Should ROPs go out of production I'd go to 5761's. They're nicer than ROPs from what I've seen anyway. Hopefully the rumors aren't true though.


----------



## KROMATICS (Nov 14, 2007)

When Pelican states the 3854-24w puts out 600 lumens in the Big D light are they talking about bulb lumens or torch lumens? I was under the impression that along with Surefire they were one of the very few to go by the more accurate torch lumens.


----------



## Scattergun (Nov 14, 2007)

I saw someone recommending the Osram 64250, but my findings in this matter is that the 64250 gives a hideous beam in a smooth reflector. I use the WA1111 and it gives both a whiter output and a much better beamshape.


----------



## MikeSalt (Nov 14, 2007)

Why can I not find the Big-D light in any form (NiMH, SLA etc...) on the peli.com website? This is what caused my concerns in the first place.


----------



## Bushman5 (Nov 14, 2007)

lctorana said:


> As a direct replacement for the RoP-low, I heartily recommend the Philips HPR71.
> 
> It is a PR flange bulb, and physically resembles the RoP-high. It is also very tolerant of being overdriven. It is a halogen bulb, with nice white light.
> 
> ...



can you let us know what the prices are ? i looked locally here at our bulb supplier and they dont carry the Phillips


----------



## Lunal_Tic (Nov 14, 2007)

There were some good suggestions over here: Looking for a non ROP bulb solution for 2x18650s

-LT


----------



## Valolammas (Nov 14, 2007)

For a bi-pin ROP-low replacement, how about the MagCharger bulb? It draws a little less current and is almost as bright. Readily available, too.


----------



## KevinL (Nov 14, 2007)

Well, it's good to know that our fears were unfounded and that life will go on. I tend to consult www.pelican.com for information.. that's the official USA site. 

www.peli.com appears to be their EMEA (Europe, Middle East, Africa) site. As noted, there is no Big D available. 

Perhaps the Big D is a USA-specific specialty product for US firefighters? Not all manufacturers make all products available in all countries. 

Either way it hasn't all been for nought, there have been some very good suggestions about alternative bulbs for those who want to go a little bit further and play with options that may be a little different from the 'plug and play' simplicity of the 3854 bulb. It's interesting to see what can be done with the 6V platform.


----------



## Niteowl (Nov 15, 2007)

KevinL said:


> Well, it's good to know that our fears were unfounded and that life will go on.........



As Kevin stated, no need to panic. 

I called and spoke with Nora (Tech. Dept.) at Pelican and she assured me *the SLA Big D is still with us*. As mentioned earlier, the *alkaline* version is the one singled out for extinction. I've talked to her before and have no reason to doubt what she says.

I do like the options presented here though and will have to try a couple out.


----------



## lctorana (Nov 15, 2007)

Edited my post - the HPR71 is 210 lumens, not 201.

(I have the GH44 on the brain at the moment!)


----------



## lctorana (Jan 30, 2008)

Announcement:

Regarding the HPR71, I have put my money where my mouth is, and sent a couple to LuxLuthor for destructive testing.

Exactly how well it overdrives vis-a-vis the #3854L we shall soon see.


----------



## Outdoors Fanatic (Jan 31, 2008)

Maybe Lumens Factory would come up with a tru drop-in "plug&play" solution for the standard Mags? ( of course that we would need to chance reflectors and lenses )


----------



## RoyJ (Jan 31, 2008)

I've recently succeded in building a light that performs very similarly to a ROP.

I used a 20W 6V G4 bulb normally made for interior lighting. Look around and a lot of places carry them. A Kaidomain bi-pin holder was used. Here the tricky part though: to make the light work in a 2D body, I had to re-wrap 8 AAs in thin clear packing tape, and solder my own pack.

These are 2000 - 10,000 hr bulbs, so they need to be severely overdriven to work. My light also has all the resistence mods. I compared it to a known bulb - 9006 1050 bulb-lm headlight on my car, and it's noticebly brighter. I'm guessing 1200 - 1400 bulb lumens.

Amp draw is 3.8, so it'll run a bit longer than a ROP.


----------

