# Why Surefire?



## TwinBlade (Sep 8, 2010)

Ok you defenders, proponents and advocates of modern technology, here is your chance to tell me WHY you spend the money on these flashlights that you do.

Now, you all must know, I have MANY thousands of dollars in knives...99% of which are made in USA. I have many many more thousands in firearms, about half of which are made in the USA. I put my money where performance is. Having compared performance of Surefires to a lot of the other companies out there, they offer, quite frankly, less illumination power as a whole, on par runtimes, on par sizes per class, but nothing that I can see that puts them in a stand out for me to spend twice the amount of money on. I have a few Inova's that are made in the USA, and they are great, bullet proof lights. They are on and off...that is it. Great in that regard, but lack versatility, and therefore, they do not get carried often. One sits in my truck, another in my nightstand. They see little use. They are also half the price, or more, of Surefires that I see.

I hope none of you see this as me taking a shot at them. I am not in the least. What I am doing, is comparing reliability and function, per price, per materials used etc. I would love to buy one...especially the Titan. $240 is a REALLY REALLY tough pill to swallow on one however. If you trold me $125, I would be in...

Thoughts folks?


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## kramer5150 (Sep 8, 2010)

For the SF lights I owned and used...

A2:
-Regulated, cream-white incan tint
-90 Lumens, smooth beam
-Floody red LEDs
-Great UI (press harder for more light, twist farther for more light)
-Great type III feel & quality
-Great knurl
-RCR123 compatibility

E2L:
-SUPERB efficiency (80 Lumens / Watt), no heat generation
-Simple 2 mode UI
-Efficient TIR lens
-Great type III feel & quality
-Great knurl
-RCR123 and 17670 compatibility
-Small enough to pack carry easily yet firm in the hand

M2:
-Heft
-Shock/drop impact resistant
-Z41 reliability
-Great type III feel & quality
-Great grip ring
-Great incan host

6P
-Versatile
-Lego
-Malkoff
-Lumens Factory
-Nailbender
-Moddoo
-DX
-LEEF
-5Mega
-Bomb-proof
-Z41 reliability
-etc
-etc

G2
-Same as the 6P... but cheaper, lighter, and even more durable.

Positives about the brand in general:
-Lifetime warranty
-Free parts replacement for the lifetime of the product
-USA made, 300 miles from my home
-Paul Kim designs, many of which are patented.

I also like the M6 and Kroma very much, even though I don't own them.


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## DimeRazorback (Sep 8, 2010)

What sort of light do you want?
What would the uses be of the light?
How often would you be using the light?


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## jamesmtl514 (Sep 8, 2010)

I have owned the following Surefire lights, some in multiples.
A2L, E1B, E2D, E2DL, M1, M6, 6p, G2. They are not the brightest lights available, however they are near indestructable. They can be trusted to perform in a situation where the need for light is critical. I keep buying them because I know that Surefire makes an excellent product and the company stands behind each and every part.


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## TwinBlade (Sep 8, 2010)

DimeRazorback said:


> What sort of light do you want?
> What would the uses be of the light?
> How often would you be using the light?



I have several modern LED lights...7 or 8 anyways, from Fenix, iTP, Inova. I use them for the mundane every day use of going to bed in a dark house, to lighting up a field, to taking the dogs on a late night walk in the woods. I use flashlights for hunting and camping....basically anything except self defense. That's what a gun is for.  90% of my uses fall into EDC and outdoor use.



jamesmtl514 said:


> I have owned the following Surefire lights, some in multiples.
> A2L, E1B, E2D, E2DL, M1, M6, 6p, G2. They are not the brightest lights available, however they are near indestructable. They can be trusted to perform in a situation where the need for light is critical. I keep buying them because I know that Surefire makes an excellent product and the company stands behind each and every part.



I am with you on this. I am a HUGE advocate of reliability. I have not, however, heard of an Inova or Fenix failing in any use whatsoever, albeit, I am a noob to this forum, but have been a long time active member of many a gun, knife and hunting forum, and several gun and archery clubs locally including being a range officer at a public shooting range. Word of failure, even in a flashlight, travels at a VERY rapid pace. I also appreciate product support. It is a very large consideration to me.

My firearms are all PROVEN in design. My knives...most of them...are not only proven in design but also reviewed in extreme and hard use by me personally. I am a stickler for reliability...

I appreciate the discussion.:thumbsup:


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## ninemm (Sep 8, 2010)

If you put up a WTB on the Marketplace you should be able to pick up a Titan for about $150 almost new.


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## buickid (Sep 8, 2010)

There are many many threads that ask the same question you did, and in the end, I think it pretty much boils down to solid design and construction, and for some, the ability to modify. The plain ol 6P has a huge aftermarket of 3rd party modifications.


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## etc (Sep 8, 2010)

You pay for these lites whether you buy them or not, as a taxpayer subsidized devices mostly for LEO and the military, not for Joe Six Pack on the street.
Great business model. Great market to tap into.

Having said that, I think they are built robust and overengineered. I like 6P/9P and I have just one Surefire with no plans to get more. The rest of mine are SF clones.

Just compare the thread of 9P versus anything else. Well built, impossible to cross-thread. Everything else seems like cheap junk compared to it.


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## kelmo (Sep 8, 2010)

Why not?


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## Darell (Sep 8, 2010)

> Having compared performance of Surefires to a lot of the other companies out there, they offer, quite frankly, less illumination power as a whole, on par runtimes, on par sizes per class


I can only guess that you compared teh "illumination power" by comparing the claims of the makers... and not the actual product. Am I right?

Surefire does something that no other maker I know of does: They wildly under-state the performance numbers. The idea is that they show the worst-case scenario... not the best (or even worse.. impossible to achieve emitter specs that some will proudly claim). In ever case I know of, the specs listed on the package were surpassed by every unit of the product sold.

Surefires are expensive. In general they aren't meant for sideboard duty. They typically excel at what they were purpose-built for.


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## TwinBlade (Sep 8, 2010)

ninemm said:


> If you put up a WTB on the Marketplace you should be able to pick up a Titan for about $150 almost new.


Very interesting and enticing. I appreciate that.

I do have to ask why there is such a rapid decline in price?

How many others out there, that you folks know of, stand behind their product to a fault like Surefire? This holds a lot of weight with me. 

A lot of this may end up being similar to a Randall knife. There is, IMO, no other knife that is as highly coveted and collected in the knife industry. You can buy a Randall now, for $600 say, and in 1, 2, 5, 15, or 100 years, sell it for as much or more than you paid for it...maybe a little less with use on it. The point is, collectibility and brand loyalty, of which I am a huge fan of just that. It just needs to be worth it to me.


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## TwinBlade (Sep 9, 2010)

Darell said:


> I can only guess that you compared teh "illumination power" by comparing the claims of the makers... and not the actual product. Am I right?


You are absolutely correct. Inova does it as well, as does my Alpine amp and Rockford Fosgate sub in my truck. I would expect any GOOD company to do exactly that.

As far as wildly understating the claims, I have not seen a review as of yet (might be the forum glitch that does not allow me to go back further) on a Surefire. I think a few reviews would help in this regard.

Kelmo...price my friend, price.


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## TwinBlade (Sep 9, 2010)

etc said:


> You pay for these lites whether you buy them or not, as a taxpayer subsidized devices mostly for LEO and the military, not for Joe Six Pack on the street.
> Great business model. Great market to tap into.
> 
> Having said that, I think they are built robust and overengineered. I like 6P/9P and I have just one Surefire with no plans to get more. The rest of mine are SF clones.
> ...


That makes sense to me. I reload for a reason...WAY cheaper, and I can tune each individual load to each application. I don't take powerhouse JHP's to an IPSC match nor vice versa for defense. Ammo has a LOT of market overcharge to help with R&D, LEO and military applications.


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## ninemm (Sep 9, 2010)

Seems like the general price even from vendors is less than the MRSP of the T1A. There are always a few guys around willing to part with their T1As for a good price. 

Just to reiterate what others have said Surefire will back you 100% in my experience. I've had some issues with a few of my lights and they have resolved them free of charge and no questions asked.


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## Let It Bleed (Sep 9, 2010)

Has this dead horse not suffered enough! 

I realize your question is sincere, as you seem to realize that there must be something inherent in Surefire products that entice so many obviously knowledgeable folks to buy them. Therefore, 

Seek and ye shall find the answers that now elude you.


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## Search (Sep 9, 2010)

We are now at thread # 837526 regarding why SureFire is so popular.

I hope when Dave closes it he says something funny


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## TwinBlade (Sep 9, 2010)

Ninemm, I brought this thread up with the EXPECTATION that this point would be solidified into my head. I will purchase a Surefire someday. I have several military friends that own them (for a reason right?) and I have put several in my hands. 

My point with all of this is cost justification. Does no other company out there stand behind their product??? The archery industry is as competitive as any out there. If you don't stand behind your product, you are dead in a year or two. It is just that simple. No argument can be made against it. I would HOPE that there are a lot of companies that stand equally well behind their lights.

I will reiterate, I do appreciate the discussion.:thumbsup::thumbsup:


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## badtziscool (Sep 9, 2010)

I can't speak for others, but my desire for Surefires come from the strength of the aftermarket, the versatility, and the overall quality of the light. You can have one single body and be able to accommodate multiple situations with all of the various aftermarket components. They're ergonomic and comfortable to use. They're near indestructible. And they look good.


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## Monocrom (Sep 9, 2010)

*This topic.*



Let It Bleed said:


> Has this dead horse not suffered enough!


 
I think it has. I'm not re-posting, yet again, what I've posted on numerous similar topics that could be found so ridiculously easily by using the search function.


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## TwinBlade (Sep 9, 2010)

Search said:


> We are now at thread # 837526 regarding why SureFire is so popular.
> 
> I hope when Dave closes it he says something funny


Why would it be closed?

I do not, quite honestly, have time to dedicate to a lot of mindless searching and reading. I am a member of countless forums and a moderator of 2. 

If I lived in wonder of asking a question for fear of the thread being closed, I guess I found the wrong place. I answer the same question day in and day out in other venues. I don't see the problem here...


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## Monocrom (Sep 9, 2010)

TwinBlade said:


> I don't see the problem here...


 
And that's the very problem, right there.


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## zx7dave (Sep 9, 2010)

Surefires are pretty much unbreakable..so I choose them over any other brand as great hosts. They unfortunately are a little outdated as far as modern LEDs, but other than that I enjoy their history, and for me Surefires were the only real light back in the 80's unless you were a maglite fan...




TwinBlade said:


> Very interesting and enticing. I appreciate that.
> 
> I do have to ask why there is such a rapid decline in price?
> 
> ...


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## etc (Sep 9, 2010)

I wish they made a 2AA lite (wish came true).
Wish they made an 18mm body
Wish they made a "12P" body (4x123)

Their lites are not cutting edge because they cannot re-recertify their lites every time something latest and greatest comes upon the scene. The stuff has to be out for a while and be tested before it's used. I don't blame them. They really don't have any other choice.

You have no such restrictions. Take a Surefire, modify it any way you want. The number of combinations is mind boggling. The Lego concept is alone worth it. I haven't bought any new lites this year at all but I keep buying various modules, extensions, tailcaps, bezels. then reassemble then, take them apart, try new things. 

I won't ever buy a lite that is not a lego.

I like 1" body and I really like 123 cells. 
They set the standard for others to follow.

Bored 6P is next on my list. Not even sure if it remains a Surefire, heavily modded.

Get a 6P, a 9P is always a must. Not that expensive. Especially if used or off the online auction. Keep wanting to get an E-series but never get to it. No way can you duplicate their performance with AA lites. There are many clones but their reliability is in question.

Get 2, 3 inexpensive Surefires, that's what I did, 6P won't break the bank, but I don't suggest going crazy and going on a shopping spree with 3 dozen expensive lites. Before I get a high end SF, I will probably look at custom made alternatives, both cheaper and brighter. Remember, this is not an option for their intended market.


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## TwinBlade (Sep 9, 2010)

Monocrom said:


> And that's the very problem, right there.


Explain that to me. I am all ears.

It is comments like this that kill threads. Not the topics.

Do you have any idea how many times I have explained to some tactical mall ninja about how awesome is "this" knife with it's groovy black coating, tactical serrations etc that will be used for some covert "self defense" fantasy he has conjured up in his head? New folks bring new questions. I will restate, I do not have time to read a 500 page book doing searches. If you are willing to help, please do so. if not, I digress.


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## Imon (Sep 9, 2010)

Wow! So many replies in so short of a time.
With a title like "Why Surefire?" you're bound to get some responses 

So I just can't help but put in my opinion of Surefire...
Sometimes I think we're too fixated on output and ignore the other fine aspects of a flashlight such as quality of construction and the slightest attentions to detail that makes a light great to use. That said, many Surefires are purpose built for a job which many of them excel at. 

Just an example with one of my Surefires - my E2L gets used all the time in the great outdoors. It has a certain combination of features I find hard to find in other flashlights - great runtime, great throw, low weight, and compactness. My PD30 on turbo will illuminate an object just as far away as my E2L will but will have a 5 to 6 times shorter runtime. Bummer.

I understand people's hesitation to buy Surefires though and sometimes I can't blame them because most of the time I find SF's prices hard to stomach  When I do get my hands on a new SF though, I never have regrets.


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## Monocrom (Sep 9, 2010)

TwinBlade said:


> Explain that to me. I am all ears.
> 
> It is comments like this that kill threads. Not the topics.
> 
> . . . New folks bring new questions. I will restate, I do not have time to read a 500 page book doing searches. If you are willing to help, please do so. if not, I digress.


 
Actually, this topic does deserve to get killed; and yes, I'll provide an explanation since you are willing to listen.

New members rarely bring new questions to a site such as CPF that has been around for more than a handful of years. They often bring the same questions that Regulars have answered far too many times to count. The hope is that a new member would at least take the time to use the search function, and look up older, similar, threads where those questions have already been answered.

In the case of this topic, that question has been answered to a ridiculous degree. However, no one expects you to read a 500 page book of results after using the search function. It *is* expected that you read through the first two results or topics that come up after using the search function. You don't even have to fully read through them. You read until you get the answer to your question. You can stop reading after that. 

Honestly, if that truly is too difficult for you to do; then perhaps you did indeed come to the wrong place.


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## red02 (Sep 9, 2010)

TwinBlade said:


> Explain that to me. I am all ears.
> 
> It is comments like this that kill threads. Not the topics.
> 
> Do you have any idea how many times I have explained to some tactical mall ninja about how awesome is "this" knife with it's groovy black coating, tactical serrations etc that will be used for some covert "self defense" fantasy he has conjured up in his head? New folks bring new questions. I will restate, I do not have time to read a 500 page book doing searches. If you are willing to help, please do so. if not, I digress.


New debate is always interesting, however these threads often offer nothing new and degenerate into x vs y and get closed. I'm all for discussion but not once all arguments have been exhausted and repeated and if its already been discussed _ad nauseam_.

If you take a few *minutes* and do a search relevant links are easy enough to find (if your really interested):
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/93299 (5pg)

Not exactly the 500pgs you were looking at...


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## UnderTheWeepingMoon (Sep 9, 2010)

I think if someone seriously wants to understand the fuss over X brand's flashlights and isn't interested in reading the wealth of information on CPF about X brand, they should buy one of X brand's lights, use it, and make up their own mind. If they decide they don't like the light, it can easily be sold on the marketplace for little loss.


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## TwinBlade (Sep 9, 2010)

Monocrom said:


> It *is* expected that you read through the first two results or topics that come up after using the search function. You don't even have to fully read through them.


Show me in writing where it states that. Show my where I am REQUIRED on a public forum to do this. I do not take well to dictation. This thread took a wrong turn with your interjection, unwelcomed as it is. Sorry.


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## Darell (Sep 9, 2010)

Guys... please! I keep letting folks convince me that CPF still has the same generous undertones that it started with. I really hate to see any thread swerve into the discussion of when it will be closed. Who wins from that? I think we can all see both sides to the problem here:

1. New guy doesn't want to spend the time searching for answers because it is a waste of his valuable time.
2. Old guy doesn't want to spend time answering the question that's been asked an untold number of times before because (wait for it) it is a waste of his valuable tiem.

So here's the compromise that I propose:

New guy can preserve his valuble time by asking a question without first searching. Old guy can choose to waste his valuable time by answering, or can choose to preserve his valuable time by moving on and not posting anything.

Does that work? Can we all just get along so I can go back to not dealing with this?

Thanks muchly! :welcome:


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## Darell (Sep 9, 2010)

Oh... and one more VERY important part of this: Whoever stops taking the bait first wins! Everybody... stop responding to anything that doesn't answer a question you want answered, and this all goes away.


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## Monocrom (Sep 9, 2010)

*Post deleted as favor to Darell*


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## Imon (Sep 9, 2010)

Darell said:


> 1. New guy doesn't want to spend the time searching for answers because it is a waste of his valuable time.
> 2. Old guy doesn't want to spend time answering the question that's been asked an untold number of times before because (wait for it) it is a waste of his valuable tiem.



Reminds me of when I used to work in retail. You'd get asked the same question over and over again and deep down you resent answering them but you have to remember that perhaps it's unrealistic to expect them to have the answer.
So this thread has taken a bit of a wrong turn but I think in the end twinblade will get some kind of answer.


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## Darell (Sep 9, 2010)

I'm just a glutton tonight! I'm going to assume that the last Monocrom post was being composed while my posts were being posted.... and not after my posts were read. Comfort me by removing it yourself, Monocrom.

Please don't waste MY time!


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## fyrstormer (Sep 9, 2010)

I think I can boil it down for you, TwinBlade. The really short reason why so many people buy SureFire is: SureFire sets the standard by which all other prosumer-grade lights are judged. If you buy a SureFire, you know you're getting "good enough" at the very least, with plenty of room to improve if you want to drop the coin on it. 

Many of the other brands, and a lot of customs, build on the SureFire C-Series and E-Series standards. Malkoff, TnC, Oveready, Veleno, all make upgrades for SureFires. The McLux, ostensibly the first fully-custom production flashlight in living memory, was based on the SureFire E1. Milkys are built from Surefires. The McGizmos that I collect are based on SureFires, to the point that most of their parts are interchangeable. So even if a particular SureFire isn't the greatest light ever made, it's still "good enough", and you can make it be the best light ever made if you want to.


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## flashfan (Sep 9, 2010)

Why Surefire? For me, "longevity" is one of the factors. Yes, there are a lot of new, "wow" lights on the market, many being offered by new/newer manufacturers. But I want to know that five, ten or more years down the road, there is a good chance the company will still be around for parts and service. There are no guarantees of course, but I think they have a better chance at "persevering" over time.

That's why I also still like companies like Streamlight, Underwater Kinetics, Princeton Tec, etc. As a rule, you don't hear these names on CPF for their "state-of-the-art" products, but they have generally been solid performers for me.

Surefire is (for now at least) still in a class by itself. Rugged, dependable, great-looking, outstanding performance, etc. ad nauseum...

BTW Darell, your posts are spot on!


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## Darell (Sep 9, 2010)

fyrstormer said:


> The McLux, ostensibly the first fully-custom production flashlight in living memory, was based on the SureFire E1.


Ah, a great memory! I need to point out though that we didn't really *base* it on the E1... we just made sure it was compatible with the E-series heads. Doesn't change your point, of course. And your point is an important one.



flashfan said:


> BTW Darell, your posts are spot on!


You're very kind. Sometimes I get lucky 

Thanks to both of you for getting this back on track.


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## angelofwar (Sep 9, 2010)

TwinBlade said:


> I am with you on this. I am a HUGE advocate of reliability. I have not, however, heard of an Inova or Fenix failing in any use whatsoever, albeit, I am a noob to this forum,


 
I haven't tried a Fenix, so I'll leave them out, but I have had every other mfg. (including Inova, although I like the over-all design/function of there lights) fail on me, or cease to function properly, except Surefire. And not through rough use per-se. They just quit working right...Inova's, Mini- [email protected]'s, Nuwai, Dorcy. I have had bulbs blow in my SF's, and broke one (a tail-cap, but the light still functioned). For me it's the rock solid, functional, high-tech, yet "simple" design that makes them dead reliable. The finish...the small details, like high quality O-rings, smooth threads...high quality aluminum, THICKER aluminum than most. 

They build there lights for long term serviceability...yeah, they COULD run the LED's higher/harder for more out-put, and shorten the life of the light, but they strike a good balance of maximizing the light out-put and getting a good service life out of the LED. I'm sure these other lights that are ran at the max will have pretty crappy looking beams in about 5 years, if the lights survive that long.

I would never buy a Titan, but my 1st gen G2 is about 7 years old, O-ring is till in excellent shape, and the light works fine...there's nothing that can really fail on it, and I think they intentionally incorporate that in to alot of their design.

Ok, that's enough to chew on for a little. Great thread OP!

Oh, did I mention they have THE BEST CS in the business??? That also should be (and I believe IS) factored into the cost. 

Here's my recommended COA Twin Blade...Buy a C2-HA with a malkoff or KX4-HA, use it for a week or two, and call me back on the 1st.


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## WHT_GE8 (Sep 9, 2010)

I have owned many brands for YEARS and have never have a light fail on me. People say surefire is reliable which may be true, but my $70 Fenix has not failed me once. Look up the Fenix TK40 test. It was frozen, boiled, dropped 50+ times on concrete from a building, ran over and more. And it still worked flawlessly. If you guys are putting your lights through more torture than that then maybe surefire would be fine. But I can get 3 lights for the price of one surefire, that would still function when I need it to. Where are the reports of Fenix and other lights failing like that? Where are the surefire torture tests? Surefire makes great lights, but are extremely overpriced, underpowered, outdated, and overrated.

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/233856


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## fyrstormer (Sep 9, 2010)

Darell said:


> Ah, a great memory! I need to point out though that we didn't really *base* it on the E1... we just made sure it was compatible with the E-series heads. Doesn't change your point, of course. And your point is an important one.


:thumbsup:












Anyway, simply by ensuring that the McLux was mechanically and electrically compatible with the E-Series, lots of other constraints were placed on the design: the switch had to be tail-mounted, since a head-mounted switch would've caused problems for McLux heads on SureFire bodies; the driver had to be head-mounted, since tail-mounted electronics would leave McLux heads on SureFire bodies effectively "brainless" and unable to operate; those two constraints combined ultimately made the Aleph system of interchangeable switches and electronics possible; a tail-mounted switch necessitated a collar ring if tailstanding was desired, which in turn provided a space to mount a bezel-down clip instead of the standard bezel-up clip; and so on. Lots of secondary considerations that cascaded from that first decision to build on SureFire's basic design.

Nobody can argue that the custom-light industry hasn't benefited greatly from that decision, and the fact that there are custom parts available makes SureFires more flexible and useful in return.


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## red02 (Sep 9, 2010)

angelofwar said:


> I haven't tried a Fenix, so I'll leave them out, but I have had every other mfg. (including Inova, although I like the over-all design/function of there lights) fail on me, or cease to function properly, except Surefire. And not through rough use per-se. They just quit working right...Inova's, Mini- [email protected]'s, Nuwai, Dorcy. I have had bulbs blow in my SF's, and broke one (a tail-cap, but the light still functioned). For me it's the rock solid, functional, high-tech, yet "simple" design that makes them dead reliable. The finish...the small details, like high quality O-rings, smooth threads...high quality aluminum, THICKER aluminum than most.
> 
> They build there lights for long term serviceability...yeah, they COULD run the LED's higher/harder for more out-put, and shorten the life of the light, but they strike a good balance of maximizing the light out-put and getting a good service life out of the LED. I'm sure these other lights that are ran at the max will have pretty crappy looking beams in about 5 years, if the lights survive that long.
> 
> ...


+1

Every light I've had (besides LRI) has either failed, malfunctioned or in some other way did not work as expected or advertised. I think thats unacceptable. A few just up and quit on me, and I decided that I've had it.

Cheap lights cost too much time, effort and money.

Surefire isn't for everyone. There are many who don't use their lights enough to justify the asking price. Not everyone needs a power drill. Some people are better off with a cordless or just a screw driver. After buying 3 Surefires (6P, Saint, G2 LED) I'm completely sold on this company. Its not about the lm/dollar, but the high value and solid reliability of these tools.


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## fyrstormer (Sep 9, 2010)

WHT_GE8 said:


> Where are the reports of Fenix and other lights failing like that? Where are the surefire torture tests?


There are reports of Fenix/Jetbeam/etc. lights failing all the time, and getting them repaired is a pain. There's a thread right now summarizing one guy's attempts to get his RRT-1 fixed.

As for the torture tests: http://www.surefire.com/truestories How's an IED attack for a torture test?


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## NoFair (Sep 9, 2010)

Generally Surefires are bright enough and the build quality is above and beyond most other makers. This is one of the reasons why upgrading older Surefires with newer leds is very popular. The rest of the light is still great and with a quick led swap it is again on the cutting edge brightness wise. I've done this with most of my old Surefire LED lights and they are as good, or better, as anything else on the market.

Newer Surefires are as bright as the competition, but they generally take their time in upgrading the stat sheets. 

Take a look at the LX2, it is about as good as it gets for a 2 cr123 light:thumbsup:

Sverre

PS! Hope the sheath business goes well


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## WHT_GE8 (Sep 9, 2010)

fyrstormer said:


> There are reports of Fenix/Jetbeam/etc. lights failing all the time, and getting them repaired is a pain. There's a thread right now summarizing one guy's attempts to get his RRT-1 fixed.
> 
> As for the torture tests: http://www.surefire.com/truestories How's an IED attack for a torture test?


 
So surefires NEVER fail? And if a Fenix can withstand equal torture tests as a surefire why pay triple the price?


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## fyrstormer (Sep 9, 2010)

So now you've gone from "who's testing SureFires?" to "just because they're really good doesn't mean they're perfect". First of all: there are stories on that site of lights surviving _bomb blasts_. That beats dropping it on concrete any day. But you're right, they're not perfect, I'm sure plenty of SureFires went down-for-the-count after getting blown up. But you can get SureFire parts shipped next-day, if you can't find a dealer locally. Can't do that with Made In China.


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## aldagoods (Sep 9, 2010)

2 cents on customer service. I have an old E2e incan. Emailed surefire helpline about a week ago saying my o-ring at the head is going out. Got replacements in the mail 2 days ago, no questions asked. Free of charge. Pretty damn sweet. 

That aside, being deep in mex, middle of nowhere with no ambient city light, the little E2e blew doors off the mags everyone else had. 

That aside also - Ive got a 6PL and a mod LED head for the E2e-- you just cannot avoid how easy it is to make surefires what you want.


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## fareast (Sep 9, 2010)

WHT_GE8 said:


> So surefires NEVER fail? And if a Fenix can withstand equal torture tests as a surefire why pay triple the price?



_Any_ flashlight you can buy today and tomorrow can and still will fail. Always. Batteries will run dry, led's will go faint, filaments burn up, metal get's chipped, drivers will have electronic problems, clickies go bad, rubber wears off, glass breaks, sapphire shatters, plastics scratch, things get lost, the sun will rise tomorrow...

There is no perfect light, just many samples. 

To each their own.


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## red02 (Sep 9, 2010)

WHT_GE8 said:


> So surefires NEVER fail? And if a Fenix can withstand equal torture tests as a surefire why pay triple the price?


Thats a really, really big "IF". 

I completely expected to have my ZL H501 for years. Unfortunately after 4 months of regular use it quit. No warning, no abuse, just stopped working and thats it. No threads on reliability problems, nor any indication that it would quit so soon. I've heard stories of a H501 surviving a deployment to Iraq, but how does that help me? If after 1 year ZL won't care about me or my purchase, Surefire will.

Why pay 3x the price?

First off, thats not accurate. Plenty of dealers give generous discounts and the CPFMP is a great source for lights. Many people get scared off by the MSRP when there are other choices.

Neither Fenix nor any other company make the light I need or want, Surefire does. My money goes to the best tool for the job. More often than not its going to be a Surefire.

Like I said its not for everyone.


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## angelofwar (Sep 9, 2010)

red02 said:


> Thats a really, really big "IF".
> 
> If after 1 year ZL won't care about me or my purchase, Surefire will.
> 
> ...


 
Yep. After 4 months over here in the sand-box, the extra tolerance in the threads have allowed my SF twisties to still function with relative ease even with all the sand built up on them from sand storms and just the excessive sand/dust in the air. I can clean them now, but think I'll wait till I get back, since it has yet to affect the performance. The threads on my other 2-3 lights are starting to get gritty and hard to use.

31 Surefires and Counting, 5 parts replaced free and fast, ZERO "failures"...

Like RED02 said though, it's not for everyone...


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## SureAddicted (Sep 9, 2010)

WHT_GE8 said:


> I have owned many brands for YEARS and have never have a light fail on me. People say surefire is reliable which may be true, but my $70 Fenix has not failed me once. Look up the Fenix TK40 test. It was frozen, boiled, dropped 50+ times on concrete from a building, ran over and more. And it still worked flawlessly. If you guys are putting your lights through more torture than that then maybe surefire would be fine. But I can get 3 lights for the price of one surefire, that would still function when I need it to. Where are the reports of Fenix and other lights failing like that? Where are the surefire torture tests? Surefire makes great lights, but are extremely overpriced, underpowered, outdated, and overrated.
> 
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/233856



Your post was absolutely not necessary, this isn't a SureFire vs Fenix thread. Secondly the OP is asking about SureFire, why people like it, and the mystique around it.

TwinBlade, don't get too hung up on the origin of a light. Instead look at companies that have tight QC, which SF has, and it has been proven over and over. SF could be based in a village out in the Amazon jungle and they'd still be producing quality flashlights with tight QC. By QC, I don't mean having a quick look over the light before shipping off. Also having a lifetime guarantee cements the thought of ANY SureFire lasting longer than you would.


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## Xacto (Sep 9, 2010)

buickid said:


> [...]solid design and construction, and for some, the ability to modify.


 
I second that and add die ability to swap/ replace every component of the light. I consider my SF 6Ps an asset in my self-defense setup, so I like the fact that I can get a new lens/head assembly just in case.



etc said:


> [...]
> Having said that, I think they are built robust and overengineered.


 
A feeling they convey when held in the hand.



aldagoods said:


> 2 cents on customer service. [....]


 
Something I took into consideration when I started my Surefire buying spree.... which still continues.



flashfan said:


> [...]But I want to know that five, ten or more years down the road, there is a good chance the company will still be around for parts and service. [...]


 
Considering that I wanted a Surefire for a good 13 years before finally buying one (always a 6P), they already proved that requirement.


One reason that has not been stated - because it has the "The Cops use it" coolness factor. :devil:

Cheers
Thorsten


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## jtblue (Sep 9, 2010)

I always thought of Surefire as just an ordinary company with a massive mark up in $$$ but after surfing this site, I saw what seperated this brand from the rest.

I tend to think of lights as tools, I want a tool that will simply work when i want/need it to and surefire fits the bill perfectly (not that other brands can't perform to that capacity but surefire leaves me with peace of mind).

Surefire quality is something that is rare in this day in age.

P.S. Just because it says "made in china" doesn't mean its super duper, unfeakingly believably crap; I've heard that too many times but it's ironic when you realise what people are wearing, texting with, eating with and what fills 90% of their houses.

End of rant :toilet:

Jeremy.


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## LumensMaximus (Sep 9, 2010)

Why buy a Rolex when a Timex does the same thing... :thumbsup:


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## fivemega (Sep 9, 2010)

LumensMaximus said:


> Why buy a Rolex when a Timex does the same thing... :thumbsup:



*Timex doesn't attract attentions.*


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## LumensMaximus (Sep 9, 2010)

fivemega said:


> *Timex doesn't attract attentions.*


 
My sentiments, exactly :twothumbs


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## etc (Sep 9, 2010)

WHT_GE8 said:


> I have owned many brands for YEARS and have never have a light fail on me. People say surefire is reliable which may be true, but my $70 Fenix has not failed me once.



I have. Had one fail on me. One of those L2D "digital" models with several modes. The driver went crazy and it went into this wild mode, flashing in random patterns, like Morse code, unable to come out of it. I will say that Fenix is more innovative and has more features and more lumens in some cases but the build quality is not similar to Surefire. Just compare the tailcap thread of the Surefire vs. others. That was the Surefire selling point for me. 

For mission critical stuff, get a 6P with Malkoff and Z41 tailcap and primary CR123A cells. You cannot break it even if you throw it against the wall. Or from twisting the stupid thing on a gazillion times. It just runs and runs no matter what.

I would buy SOB (Some Other Brand) if it was cheaper (Like 10 FRNs), but at their price point, which is *not* cheap, I expect more, I would rather spend just a bit more and get a Surefire and mod it. 

Price is price but there is also the concept of "value". Surefire is great "value" but not necessarily great price. 

Never buy a multi-mode lite if you want 100% reliability... IME (In My Experience) 
I only used single-mode SF or clones in the last few years with no issues.


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## jellydonut (Sep 9, 2010)

I understand entirely why police and military buy Surefire - personally I stick to Malkoff, custom and others but I can see the rationale. If I had a weapon to stick one on I would be putting a Surefire or at least a Surefire-based build on it.

-Made in the US
-Bombproof reputation
-Great CS (if you'll ever need it..)
-Simple UIs.

Thing is, for me, Malkoff does all that too so I don't need to buy any Surefires.:nana: But as I said I can see why people do.


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## carrot (Sep 9, 2010)

A surprisingly refreshing take on an old question.

I like Surefire for several reasons. but most importantly they have the highest quality machining of all production flashlights and well-engineered designs (ergonomics, reliability, durability). 

Many other flashlight companies design lights in CAD, and send it off to the machinists and package it up. Surefire takes a lengthy amount of actual meat-time to test physical prototypes for ease of use, ease of carry, and reliability. I only know for certain of one other company in the flashlight industry that does this, and the quality of their designs show, as well.

A sweet bonus to being "in" on Surefires is that there's a huge aftermarket community supporting Surefires, and the coolest part is that a 6P part today will fit a 6P from three decades ago. Since I started out on Surefire when LED had yet to become so hideously popular, I was able to upgrade all my Surefires to a newer technology at minimal cost. Look at all the other flashlight brands out there. How many aftermarket parts do you see? None?

Do I need the highest quality? No. Do I need some of the best-engineered designs on the market? No. But I enjoy having something that's designed just so well that you are surprised at how good it is every time you use it. Sometimes a product is frustrating to use because it gets so many things right except for one or two things that really bother. The reason I buy Surefire is the same reason I buy Spyderco, ESEE, Victorinox, Apple, and Endeavour and McGizmo and Dozier: these are companies or individuals who are really concerned with making a product for users.


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## TwinBlade (Sep 9, 2010)

Well that sure was a lot to read after getting my beauty sleep! 

First of all, my original post came knowing FULL WELL the answers I would get due to brand loyalty, popularity, build quality and the recent thread regarding a new military contract that SF landed. 

I have been out of the service since 1994, and back then, I had the old incandescent 2 "D" right angle flashlight issued to me. I do not need a light for any tactical situation anymore, although if this economy ever turns around, I have aspirations to go into law enforcement, but the common factor involved in most of these replies, is Customer Service beyond compare, attention to detail and build quality with an excellent QC and R&D team, exceptionally well machined (I appreciate that being a machinist myself) and something I did NOT know, they set the standard many years back by which all others follow. That alone merits tremendous praise. I can think of no greater commendation than to say I was copied...or at least followed.

I am going to look into getting a SF 6P Defender. I was happy to have seen several mentions of the 6P in here because I had my eye on it before I made this post. The new model puts out 120 lumens for an impressive 9 hours claimed. That's pretty incredible...price is good too on it IMO.

As long as we are on the "buying" topic, can I get some recommendations for local dealers on these forums?

Thanks to everyone who took time to help. It is greatly appreciated. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Jeff


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## yowzer (Sep 9, 2010)

Surefire's target audience is not the folks who want the latest and greatest XY-G Z5 bin LED, or who want to squeeze every single last possible lumen out of a light, or every last second of battery life, or who like fancy UIs with tons of output options and/or configurability (With a few exceptions). In other words, your typical flashaholic. They aim at people who want a simple reliable light that provides enough light; police, military, etc. And in that market, they're at the top of the flashlight foodchain. The legoability with third-party parts makes the aforementioned segments of the flashaholic population happy too. 

They are expensive, yes (Some models I think are way overpriced, others are reasonable). But you don't have to pay full retail -- there's always good deals available on the marketplace. 

I have two Surefires: An E1B Backup and an A2 Aviator. The first is a nice light but IMO a bit overpriced (I got mine used for a very nice price, though.) The Aviator... there's nothing else like it out there. Amazing light worth every penny (And I got it off the marketplace for more than I wanted to spend (Old style 4 flats body brings a premium), but still much less than retail.) 

Will I get more SF lights? Yes.


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## CarpentryHero (Sep 9, 2010)

I appreciated reading this thread, I don't own a Surefire yet. To be honest I've been on the fence for awhile now, and seeing how the people who like them show up in droves (<hope that's spelt right) to explain why even though just by checking in the forum day to day almost had me convinced. I'm going to get one. Twinblade with all the guns you have I'm surprised you don't own one already, hehe kidding. I've been collecting flashlights for close to eight years. That and multi-tools, when I stumbled on CPF a few months back I realized I wasn't crazy or alone in my interests.

Thanks CPF peeps. . lovecpf


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## TwinBlade (Sep 9, 2010)

CarpentryHero said:


> Twinblade with all the guns you have I'm surprised you don't own one already, hehe kidding.


3 of my current pistols accommodate lights and other rail mounted hardware. Truth be told, I really just do not have a use for anything to be attached to them. If someone breaks into my house, they have 3 dogs to get past on the first floor before they make it to my room. The dogs might let them in, they will not get out.


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## jellydonut (Sep 9, 2010)

I thought it was the established CPF norm that 'need' does not figure into whether or not you should buy more lights.:nana:

If I had a gun it sure as heck would have an accompanying light, maybe not attached all the time but it'd have one with its name on it..:naughty:


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## CarpentryHero (Sep 9, 2010)

If I owned a gun, it'd have a light on it, if I owned 4 guns and a rifle, I'd have lights on 3 guns, a laser and light on the fourth, and a clip on light for the rifle. (my friends would expect it) the first cordless drill that came out with a light I bought. My makita circular saw has an LED too. (shrug) I said kidding at the end of that because he is not me


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## bestcounsel (Sep 9, 2010)

I think what it has come down to (no offense) is that you have (yet) to put much importance on illumination. You have rails on your guns but no gun lights. You spend big money on guns and knifes but less on illumination. 

I was that way before too....untill i started doing EP work and realized that illumination is as important as the pistol on my side and sometimes more important. In fact on most of the details i work i use my lights heck of a lot more then my pistol...

I see this a lot in EP (especially with cops) (again no offense) they will carry the best gun with the cheapest holster and even with the cheapest light they can buy in a store/last minute...

Most tac/POST schools are teaching the importance of Illumination....


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## Brigadier (Sep 9, 2010)

Why SureFire?

Well, for my purposes SureFire make the best, most rugged, reliable, versatile _*incan*_ flashlights on the market, and they stand behind their products 110%, here in the US of A. Are they the cheapest? Nope. But like my dad told me, 'Son, buy quality tools. You'll only cry once'. So far, he has been right.

YMMV.


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## njet212 (Sep 9, 2010)

TwinBlade said:


> As long as we are on the "buying" topic, can I get some recommendations for local dealers on these forums?
> 
> Jeff




As the time goes by you will know more for your question "why surefire" by comparing SF with another brands in real world usage. I found what brands work for me what's not, what UI is the best for me what's the worst for me by comparing many brands and UI and see which one is the best for me.

I started collecting flashlight in mid of 2008 - present. I have various brand such as Fenix,Nitecore,Quark,Surefire,Zebra Light, bla..bla..bla.... with also it have various UI. IMHO Surefire yet is the simplest and the most reliable flashlight. Never had any issue and problem with it, the model i have is E2D, E2DL, LX2 Lumamax.

For dealer i will point my finger to goinggear. Good Luck


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## CarpentryHero (Sep 9, 2010)

Love it, and it's true, I go by "Do it nice, or you'll do it twice". 


What's EP stand for ?


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## jellydonut (Sep 9, 2010)

Executive protection - the body guard business.


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## CarpentryHero (Sep 9, 2010)

Okay, thanks for clearing that up. Thought the E standed for Edmonton (my city)


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## angelofwar (Sep 9, 2010)

I will add this as another plus for SF's...their hand-helds lights are cross compatible with their weapons lihghts. I have an M3, M4, M6, 918FA and M961...and I can swap parts, build customs set-ups, replace weapon light parts with hand-held, etc. The bezel breaks on my weapon light, I replace it with the one on my hand-held, until SF replaces it of course, and vice-versa...


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## Let It Bleed (Sep 9, 2010)

> As long as we are on the "buying" topic, can I get some recommendations for local dealers on these forums?


 If you're asking about online dealers and not B&M stores, then see http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=181841


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## TwinBlade (Sep 9, 2010)

Well check this out. I called Sherpers (a local military surplus and outdoor gear store) and asked if they had a 6P Defender in stock to get a price quote. He said they only had the incandescent in stock, but had the Surefire drop in LED bulb assembly for it as well. He told me he would sell the light and the bulb assembly to me for $95. I told him to put my name on it. 

Here it is. Nearly identical in size to my TK12...or should I say the TK12 is nearly identical to the 6PD? 

I may end up getting an aftermarket bulb because I am spoiled by the modern Cree emitters. I will have to use this for a while to get a feel for it though. The 6PD is more comfortable in hand than the TK12 and more grippy than the Inova T2. The machining is top notch and there is a LOT of it now that I look closer at it.:thumbsup:


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## jamesmtl514 (Sep 9, 2010)

Congrats on your first (of many) Surefire light.


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## jchoo (Sep 9, 2010)

You've made an excellent choice - the momentary/twisty tailcap on the 6P is probably the most robust, failure-proof switch on any flashlight, anywhere. If you find the stock P60L module lacking, I suggest looking into one of Gene Malkoff's fine dropins. He also offers a fantastic warranty on his modules, and the options for spot, flood, and color temperature really allow you to choose the beam shape/color that is right for your needs.

http://www.malkoffdevices.com/shop/dropin-mod-dropins-to-fit-surefire-c-1_14.html


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## bestcounsel (Sep 9, 2010)

JCHOO is spot on....

get yourself a z41 momentary and a malkoff and you have bomb proof made in USA goodness....

Also, not trying to stir up trouble but i have had 2 inovas die out on me....1 was not even used much....


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## AnAppleSnail (Sep 9, 2010)

You people (And the various Surefire Stories) make me want one of these as my next light purchase. CPFMP for an 18650-bored 6P?


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## TwinBlade (Sep 9, 2010)

The brass Malkoff heads don't float my boat a whole lot.

I saw a list of drop in LED's. I don't have the foggiest damn clue which one is which. I am looking for 2-3 hour runtime on CR123's and a good mix of flood and throw...q5 or R5? I have no idea what I am talking about here so bear with me.

150 lumens is plenty for me if I can get that runtime out of it.


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## oldways (Sep 9, 2010)

TwinBlade said:


> The brass Malkoff heads don't float my boat a whole lot.
> 
> I saw a list of drop in LED's. I don't have the foggiest damn clue which one is which. I am looking for 2-3 hour runtime on CR123's and a good mix of flood and throw...q5 or R5? I have no idea what I am talking about here so bear with me.
> 
> 150 lumens is plenty for me if I can get that runtime out of it.



Put a Malkoff M61W in there and i assure you your boat will float

Hi Jeff


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## TwinBlade (Sep 9, 2010)

oldways said:


> Put a Malkoff M61W in there and i assure you your boat will float
> 
> Hi Jeff


Hey there Big D! How ya doin' my friend?

Can I get a Malkoff in something other than polished brass?


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## TwinBlade (Sep 9, 2010)

Wait a minute. Does that go under the head of the flashlight or is that the actual head itself?:thinking:


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## asdalton (Sep 9, 2010)

The Malkoff M60, M61, etc. are drop-in lamp replacements, not heads.


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## nbp (Sep 9, 2010)

Nice purchase TB! You'll be very happy. 

And now that I know that Sherpers is giving out great deals on SFs and accessories you'll have to excuse me gentlemen, I have an errand to run. :devil:


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## AnAppleSnail (Sep 9, 2010)

TwinBlade said:


> Wait a minute. Does that go under the head of the flashlight or is that the actual head itself?:thinking:



They're the funny coney springy thingy.


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## TwinBlade (Sep 9, 2010)

nbp said:


> Nice purchase TB! You'll be very happy.
> 
> And now that I know that Sherpers is giving out great deals on SFs and accessories you'll have to excuse me gentlemen, I have an errand to run. :devil:


Well when ZI talked to the guy at the Hales Corners Sherpers, he said he had the LED lamp assembly. The Oconomowoc Sherpers had the flashlight itself. There was a decent discount given the running around that I had to do. 

Just FYI.

AnAppleSnail, I am up to speed now. Told ya I had no clue what I was talking about...:laughing::laughing:


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## CarpentryHero (Sep 9, 2010)

On the way home I picked up the Surefire G2 LED. Rated at 80 lumens, yet it's brighter then my quark AA2 rated at 200 lumens. WOW I'm hooked :twothumbs


I only payed 10 dollars more for the Surefire


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## AnAppleSnail (Sep 9, 2010)

CarpentryHero said:


> On the way home I picked up the Surefire G2 LED. Rated at 80 lumens, yet it's brighter then my quark AA2 rated at 200 lumens. WOW I'm hooked :twothumbs
> 
> 
> I only payed 10 dollars more for the Surefire



Wow indeed - You're not helping my wallet!

(As soon as I have disposable income again...)


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## red02 (Sep 9, 2010)

TwinBlade said:


> The brass Malkoff heads don't float my boat a whole lot.
> 
> I saw a list of drop in LED's. I don't have the foggiest damn clue which one is which. I am looking for 2-3 hour runtime on CR123's and a good mix of flood and throw...q5 or R5? I have no idea what I am talking about here so bear with me.
> 
> 150 lumens is plenty for me if I can get that runtime out of it.


Beside their unique names LEDs are rated for 2 things tint and flux. The flux is denoted by a letter followed by a number: "R2" for example. The later the letter in the alphabet and the higher the number the brighter the LED will be at the same current. So a Q- will be lower flux than an R or an S.

Since there are no XREs higher than R2 its common place to associate anything above that with the XPG. Therefore, Q5 refers to an older XRE flux bin (the max now is the R2 bin). The R5 refers to the highest XPG flux bin. The XRE will throw more while the XPG will be a tad brighter but more floody. The XRE will max out at 200+ OTF and the XPG will probably be closer to 270+ OTF.

Really depends on the preference. You should try the P60 thread at the top of this page for more information.



CarpentryHero said:


> On the way home I picked up the Surefire G2 LED. Rated at 80 lumens, yet it's brighter then my quark AA2 rated at 200 lumens. WOW I'm hooked :twothumbs
> 
> 
> I only payed 10 dollars more for the Surefire



Impressive, I've been using my G2 with a Deree module. Makes me want to give the P60L another shot. I've only played around with it during the daytime...


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## TwinBlade (Sep 9, 2010)

Thanks for the info on ratings man. I hope the whole Malkoff's not floating my boat thing was not taken wrong. I thought it was an actual replacement head that got screwed on. I was like "who the heck puts this big church bell looking eye sore on the end of their flashlight"?:laughing::laughing::laughing:

I do not see the P60 link. Got a direct one?


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## jchoo (Sep 9, 2010)

Link to Malkoff M61L, ~175 lumens, 5 hours of runtime.

http://www.malkoffdevices.com/shop/m61l-low-output-to-fit-surefire-p-8.html


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## red02 (Sep 9, 2010)

TwinBlade said:


> Thanks for the info on ratings man. I hope the whole Malkoff's not floating my boat thing was not taken wrong. I thought it was an actual replacement head that got screwed on. I was like "who the heck puts this big church bell looking eye sore on the end of their flashlight"?:laughing::laughing::laughing:
> 
> I do not see the P60 link. Got a direct one?



https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/217252
P60 Dropin thread.

My mistake, the thread was in the LED section.


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## carrot (Sep 9, 2010)

+1 on the Malkoffs.

When I first heard about them, and heard people's recommendations for them, I was skeptical and unbelieving that they were anywhere as good as people said.

But, at SHOT Show 2010 I met the man himself (Gene) (and his wonderful wife, Cathy), checked out his XP-G prototypes (the updated Wildcat and the M61), and bought an M60 from a CPF-friendly dealer. Four Malkoff drop-ins later... and I still haven't gotten enough! They are THAT GOOD, you will not regret it! Every time I use my M60 and M61, I am blown away by how awesome they are!

With a gorgeous, perfectly balanced beam (M61), superb throw (M60), excellent regulation (all), and superior reliability, the Malkoff modules are THE ones to beat.


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## TwinBlade (Sep 9, 2010)

Ok, can we change this up to a P60 vs P60 drop in for a sec?

I have some time tonight to do some searching and I am getting a bit overwhelmed.

I saw this on going gear...

*ThruNite P60 Style XP-G R5 300 Lumen *http://goinggear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=14_35&products_id=805



and it is a one mode.

Could we discuss this vs the Malkoff that jchoo posted for a minute? I mean it is half the price and a whole lot of power, but no runtimes are listed...


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## kramer5150 (Sep 9, 2010)

TwinBlade said:


> The brass Malkoff heads don't float my boat a whole lot.
> 
> I saw a list of drop in LED's. I don't have the foggiest damn clue which one is which. I am looking for 2-3 hour runtime on CR123's and a good mix of flood and throw...q5 or R5? I have no idea what I am talking about here so bear with me.
> 
> 150 lumens is plenty for me if I can get that runtime out of it.



Once the fog clears from your head and your CPF knowledge base increases, Malkoff designs _WILL _float your boat. 

Congrats and welcome to the SF family... now its time to get serious


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## TwinBlade (Sep 9, 2010)

Yup, they already do. Read a bit further on some of my posts.

Thanks for the welcome. I need this new found "fix" like I need another hole in my head...:laughing:


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## Let It Bleed (Sep 9, 2010)

We could do a "why Malkoff?" and the answers would be similar to the "why Surefire" responses.

However I have a Thrunite single mode 1.5A XP-G drop-in and it is excellent. It puts out more lumens than the Malkoff XP-G drop-in (M61) and it's definitely worth the cost of admission. 

Whether the Malkoff is worth twice the money is an individual decision, which for me the answer was yes, since I've bought three M61 and three Malkoff Mag drop-ins. I may not need this level of quality, but I've never "needed" less.


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## bestcounsel (Sep 9, 2010)

Ill tell you what, I had a thrunite bulb exactly like the one below and was really impressed.....it was as bright maybe even a hint brighter than my Malkoff M60...the only thing i did not like was that its an import and i dont like using import bulbs in my tac lights....

Also, you cannot compare the build....Malkoff blew the bulb away in build...

Also, I know if my Malkoff went poof, Gene would make good and fix at my cost of course...Import stuff once it goes dead your on your own...thats another reason whey i like surefire...awesome warranty




TwinBlade said:


> Ok, can we change this up to a P60 vs P60 drop in for a sec?
> 
> I have some time tonight to do some searching and I am getting a bit overwhelmed.
> 
> ...


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## Dude Dudeson (Sep 9, 2010)

My two cents: Some Surefire models are worth every penny, and some are ridiculously overpriced.

A lot of them are in a grey area in between..... in my opinion.


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## TwinBlade (Sep 9, 2010)

Let It Bleed said:


> We could do a "why Malkoff?" and the answers would be similar to the "why Surefire" responses.
> 
> However I have a Thrunite single mode 1.5A XP-G drop-in and it is excellent. It puts out more lumens than the Malkoff XP-G drop-in (M61) and it's definitely worth the cost of admission.
> 
> Whether the Malkoff is worth twice the money is an individual decision, which for me the answer was yes, since I've bought three M61 and three Malkoff Mag drop-ins. I may not need this level of quality, but I've never "needed" less.





bestcounsel said:


> Ill tell you what, I had a thrunite bulb exactly like the one below and was really impressed.....it was as bright maybe even a hint brighter than my Malkoff M60...the only thing i did not like was that its an import and i dont like using import bulbs in my tac lights....
> 
> Also, you cannot compare the build....Malkoff blew the bulb away in build...
> 
> Also, I know if my Malkoff went poof, Gene would make good and fix at my cost of course...Import stuff once it goes dead your on your own...thats another reason whey i like surefire...awesome warranty


Well crap, according to this I may as well get both.

Kind of like Golf. Drive for show, putt for dough right? I mean it's only money afterall...:thinking:

The Malkoff will probably be my first purchase by virtue of sheer versatility of real world need for light output. The Thrunite drop in will be my "**** off the teenagers who are so loud at night on their bikes" light.

I made mention in another thread, I may as well get 8 drop ins for this Surefire and ditch all my other lights.

This swapping and building (or lego as you all call it) can be addicting...


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## TwinBlade (Sep 9, 2010)

Dude Dudeson said:


> My two cents: Some Surefire models are worth every penny, and some are ridiculously overpriced.
> 
> A lot of them are in a grey area in between..... in my opinion.


Agreed. I talked with the sales guy (also retired military) about SF lights. He has 8 or 9 of them IIRC. He also said the Titan is WAY overpriced. I made mention that I said on the forums here if it was $150, I would buy it in a heartbeat. $240 is friggin absurd.

Just my opinion.

They have plenty in a good price point after a lot of searching and input, so its all good.


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## Brigadier (Sep 9, 2010)

Well, don't forget the incan side of the 6P.

There's something to be said for a 6P stuffed with IMR 16340's powering a P90 or LF IMR-9.


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## TwinBlade (Sep 9, 2010)

I went to a knife making event a year or 2 back and one of the gentlemen there had an E1E that he was showing to folks. Lots of output, little package, great looking beam. Far better than any maglite or energizer that I saw, and I was actually impressed for a gas bulb. Believe me when I say, I was happy to land both aspects of this light. I only shined the incan in the dark basement, but it was a very impressive light output. I just wish the runtime was longer. If it were, I would probably make it a primary bulb.

BTW, the only thing I understood was 6P...LMAO!


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## njet212 (Sep 9, 2010)

Dude Dudeson said:


> My two cents: Some Surefire models are worth every penny, and some are ridiculously overpriced.
> 
> A lot of them are in a grey area in between..... in my opinion.



First i don't know why surefire "overpriced" compared to other light that has similar function with SF light.

After start buying SF and a lot of reading here in CPF now it make sense why the SF is "overpriced".

First i get quality from every SF light which is this already becoming a public secret here on CPF besides that IMHO we pay "insurance" for our SF light that has been included on every SF light tag price. That being said here, in USA we could expect same day delivered service for SF parts which we could not expect that in Chinese brand light for example.


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## morelightnow (Sep 9, 2010)

My only surefire experience is from a G2 outfitted with a dereelight dropin. Its a nice light but I only bought it because my wife likes yellow. I prefer to use Ni-Mh or LifePO4 battery chemistry so surefire lights are not for me. I would definitely own one if they came in my battery choice because I know I'd be getting a light that works perfectly when it arrives. If not, then surefire would make it work with no hassle. 

It reminds me of mags. They actually do have really good and consistent build quality for their price. Surefire is the same way, but they add the awesome output and state of the art electronics to go with it.


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## ElectronGuru (Sep 9, 2010)

TwinBlade said:


> Could we discuss this vs the Malkoff that jchoo posted for a minute? I mean it is half the price and a whole lot of power, but no runtimes are listed...



There are differences like who makes each and attention to detail, but the main difference is heat management. 

Most non Malkoff dropins are based on the original P60 design, a reflector cone with an outer spring connecting it to the body. Heat builds up in and around the bulb, has no way to get out and no where to go. With original incan, this was not only not bad, it was actually good. Halogen bulbs rely on a certain level of heat to recycle the metal that burns off the coil. And the extra heat they do give off, can largely escape through radiation (metal -> air).

LEDs are opposite. They hate heat. And the heat they generate must be conducted away (metal -> metal). Doing this well means having metal around the base of LED, as well as in contact with the body. Gene's design does both these things. The result is longer continuous output and less damage to the LED.

But as everyone is doing so well to point out, it comes back to level of need. If its a casual light you play with, the extra reliability is not that important. But its also difficult to find in a spec sheet.


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## jchoo (Sep 9, 2010)

TwinBlade said:


> I went to a knife making event a year or 2 back and one of the gentlemen there had an E1E that he was showing to folks. Lots of output, little package, great looking beam. Far better than any maglite or energizer that I saw, and I was actually impressed for a gas bulb. Believe me when I say, I was happy to land both aspects of this light. I only shined the incan in the dark basement, but it was a very impressive light output. I just wish the runtime was longer. If it were, I would probably make it a primary bulb.
> 
> BTW, the only thing I understood was 6P...LMAO!



Okay, quick helpful breakdown...

Surefire's incan lamp assemblies that will fit in your light are:

P60 (60 lumens, 60 minutes, 6 volts)
P61 (120 lumens, 20 minutes, 6 volts)
P90 (105 lumens, 60 minutes, 9 volts)
P91 (200 lumens, 20 minutes, 9 volts)

They all share the same form factor and will fit in any of the C/P/G series of lights from Surefire, however, powering them is a different story.

The 6P, C2, G2, and M2 are all 2 cell, 6 volt lights, designed to work with the P60/P61. You can physically put the P90/P91 lamp assemblies into these lights, but on regular CR123 batteries they won't run. What Brigadier suggested is to use an aftermarket assembly from Lumens Factory (http://www.lighthound.com/Lumens-Fa...ssembly-for-SureFire-C-P-Z-Series_p_1006.html) with two 3.7v rechargeable lithium ion batteries from AW (http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=191277). As you can see, this gives you a real incandescent pocket rocket - 380 lumens for about a half hour or so on rechargeable batteries.

As far as the Malkoff vs. cheap dropins question, I have used both, and the reason I wholeheartedly recommended the Malkoff was because of its build quality. The potted electronics will be far more shock resistant (suitable for use in weaponlights) than the cheaper screw together modules, and the extra mass of the Malkoff dropin and the tapered shape allow for better heatsinking. The reason I linked that particular dropin (M61L) was because it is regulated at a high output level for a long period of time - a great balance. I would question the output numbers for the cheaper dropins, as not all of them have the same quality/level of regulated output, and some of the output numbers are based on extrapolated figures from the manufacturer's specs - not actual measured output (as you get from manufacturers like Malkoff and Surefire).


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## red02 (Sep 10, 2010)

jchoo said:


> ....
> As far as the Malkoff vs. cheap dropins question, I have used both, and the reason I wholeheartedly recommended the Malkoff was because of its build quality. The potted electronics will be far more shock resistant (suitable for use in weaponlights) than the cheaper screw together modules, and the extra mass of the Malkoff dropin and the tapered shape allow for better heatsinking. The reason I linked that particular dropin (M61L) was because it is regulated at a high output level for a long period of time - a great balance. I would question the output numbers for the cheaper dropins, as not all of them have the same quality/level of regulated output, and some of the output numbers are based on extrapolated figures from the manufacturer's specs - not actual measured output (as you get from manufacturers like Malkoff and Surefire).


Which other dropins have you tried?

Deree dropins have fully potted electronics, even though they are the "screw together" type.

The output on my 3-stage 0.9-4.2v XRE R2 is competitive on a single CR123 with a 2xCR123 lights that I have. On an AA it does about 90 minutes @ 80lm. Just as described when I bought it.

Although Malkoff is high quality, its not the only option. There are many good dropins out there.


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## TwinBlade (Sep 10, 2010)

red02/jchoo, both of you are vastly filling my knowledge void here. I am really appreciating both of your additional attention to detail in input. 

regarding a firearm usage...

I shoot IPSC and IDPA. For those that do not know what it is, they are basically practical and applied shooting at varying distances, in a timed event regarding center mass accuracy. I prefer it to shooting at spots because I am of the opinion that dot shooting is meant for something with a minimum of a 22" barrel. 

The point I am making, is my practical usage of a handgun is at 25' or less in self defense. I can instinctually hit centermass at that distance without any light. Many thousands of rounds beyond that range help with this. I also use tritium sites for my defense guns. If I need to use a sight, they glow real well, but in a panic situation, they really are of little value. This explains why I do not need a flashlight for defense. If you get into my house, the dogs will shred you, I will finish you, you are dead, you cannot testify against me in a liberal court and I continue with my life.

My needs come from using light in the woods. I hunt, fish, camp and explore, regardless of time of day. Flood and throw both have their place with me, but ultimately I put my value in longevity of batteries. Being a fond flashoholic, I really am impressed with high output over a long distance. 

These two things lead me to believe that in order to fill both voids, I need both drop ins.


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## SmurfTacular (Sep 10, 2010)

Last time I participated in a SureFire argument, it almost resulted in me facing time off CPF. Really temped to chime in, but I don't want to risk it, I love CPF to much.


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## Tripwik (Sep 10, 2010)

TwinBlad I made the same realization as you when I discovered CPF. There is a whole lot more to flashlights than I ever imagined. I found this site shortly after buying my first surefire(C2-HA). Since then I have purchased several drop ins of different application and functions. There is a ton of ways to get a drop in to meet your needs and there are several that I have never had a problem with. Yes just like everything else some have went bad or gotten damaged but that is the nature of my job. I have just recently ordered my first malkoff however and am definately looking forward to putting it to the same test. When you feel a little more comfortable with your knowledge level I would also give Nailbender a try he is a CPF member that makes custom drop ins(among other mods). I have never once had a problem with anything he has built but I know that he is just a message away if I need help. 

Just in the last week I have purchased a M60, a 6P, a C3-HA, and a Nailbender SST-90 6500K 1-mode. This stuff will really suck you in, and your wallet with you!


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## angelofwar (Sep 10, 2010)

Tripwik said:


> TwinBlad I made the same realization as you when I discovered CPF. There is a whole lot more to flashlights than I ever imagined. I found this site shortly after buying my first surefire*(C2-HA). *
> 
> Just in the last week I have purchased a *M60*, a 6P, a *C3-HA*, and a Nailbender SST-90 6500K 1-mode. This stuff will really suck you in, and your wallet with you!


 
That's the Kool-aid...once ya drink it, it tastes so good...looking to get a 2nd C3-HA myself, after I realized 1 wasn't enough...I need one for "business" and the other for playing with...

Check this thread out TwinBlade...within 1 week (if you have the funds), you will buy a C2 or C3-HA...

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/206975

They finished that pitcher and had to start another...

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/243896

Drink-Up!


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## AnAppleSnail (Sep 10, 2010)

angelofwar said:


> That's the Kool-aid...once ya drink it, it tastes so good...looking to get a 2nd C3-HA myself, after I realized 1 wasn't enough...I need one for "business" and the other for playing with...



I'm starting to think that I don't know incandescent lights...since the only ones I have used are [email protected], giant spotlights, and other crummy low-voltage jobbies.

Edit: But man, I really like the runtimes LED gives me. I guess if this weren't a hard choice it wouldn't be any fun!


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## PCC (Sep 10, 2010)

TwinBlade said:


> My needs come from using light in the woods. I hunt, fish, camp and explore, regardless of time of day. Flood and throw both have their place with me, but ultimately I put my value in longevity of batteries. Being a fond flashoholic, I really am impressed with high output over a long distance.
> 
> These two things lead me to believe that in order to fill both voids, I need both drop ins.


What you need, sir, are more lights. For different purposes you should be using different lights. A Surefire 6P is a perfect light for certain situations but not the ideal light for all situations. If it was the perfect light for every situation then Surefire would only be making the 6P and nothing else. Would you use a S&W Model 60 for hunting deer? Would you use a 30-06 for varminting? No, you would use the right tool for the job.

You asked, a few pages back, if there were other manufacturers with the same warranty as Surefire's and have not received an answer. Here's a list that someone else had created and that I had recompiled to show different levels of warranty. I have not updated this list in a while but I should as there have been a few new flashlight manufacturers enter the market since then. You'll notice that Surefire didn't make the "Unconditional - you break it, we fix it, no questions asked" category but people have found that this is the actual level of service that they get from them. This list is based upon their written warranty and I'm sure other companies offer the same level of warranty even though their written warranty is less.


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## TwinBlade (Sep 10, 2010)

Thanks for that warranty list.

I agree on the tool for the job statement. I have 9 or 10 LED flashlights ranging from the tiny iTP A3 to the new Fenix TK12 with 280 lumens and pretty much every void filled in between those 2 both in size and lumen output.

I do not have the money currently to go and pick up a couple more SF's and put aftermarket parts into each one. If I buy 2 Malkoffs or a Malkoff and a Thrunight, I will have 4 lamp/LED bulbs for this new 6PD to swap out as needs arise and tide me over until I buy more SF's.


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## PCC (Sep 10, 2010)

In cycling, whenever someone asks, "How many bikes do you need?" The answer that is always given is, "N = N+1" where N is the number of bikes you have now. The same thing applies to lights. LOL!


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## jchoo (Sep 10, 2010)

PCC said:


> In cycling, whenever someone asks, "How many bikes do you need?" The answer that is always given is, "N = N+1" where N is the number of bikes you have now. The same thing applies to lights. LOL!



It applies to all hobbies/collections/pursuits... guns, ammo, knives, flashlights, books, kitchen appliances, video games, computer memory/storage... whatever you've got isn't enough.


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## Brigadier (Sep 10, 2010)

For outdoors use, the incan really shines above the LED.


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## TwinBlade (Sep 10, 2010)

Brigadier said:


> For outdoors use, the incan really shines above the LED.


I am not entirely sure I can go along with you on that one. I used to use a maglite or Gerber light for hunting. Both are incandescent. The last deer I took, I had my Inova T1 with me. The light is snow white. I put an arrow through a deer with only about 10 minutes of light left. She ran, I heard her crash about 50 yards away. I got out of my stand, walked back to the camper, cracked a beer and waited for about 30 minutes and went to go get her. That Inova lit blood up far better than any incandescent bulb I have ever used. I will never use another non LED light, at least in a hunting endeavor.:thumbsup:


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## oldways (Sep 10, 2010)

Brigadier said:


> For outdoors use, the incan really shines above the LED.




TB you love and spend a great deal of time in the outdoors. I suggest get yourself.
SF M6
Will Quiles Phd-M6 regulated pack
AW 17670 batts
SF MN15 SFMN61 SF MN21 lamp assemblies.

You can sell a gun to do this:devil:

You will the have 200 400 600 regulated bright white incand otf lumens in a beautiful beam...guilt free lumens.:thumbsup:


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## oldways (Sep 10, 2010)

Use a GOOD incand outdoors and you will keep the led inside where it belongs:nana:


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## Swedpat (Sep 10, 2010)

I started to buy a black 6P and a 9P. This because several reasons:

1: The reputation of Surefire made me interested
2: I then understood that a flashoholic's collection would not be complete without at least a Surefire
3: I really love the design of 6P

Now I have five Surefires: two 6P(black and Gun Metal), one 9P and two G2(black and yellow). For the moment all of them except from the 9P is armed with each Malkoff dropin.

Actually I thought about this: why are these simple hosts and dropins so popular, when there are many good lights in the same pricerange(yes even cheaper) with multiple modes in the same light?

There are advantages with multiple modes light, but I like the no-nonsence solution. One mode, and no temptation to "just for fun" switch between the brightness modes.

I like 6P because of it's quality feeling and thoughness. G2 is also good and much more lightweight, and works well with the lower output M60LL/M61LL dropins.

I know there is only a matter of time until I get a Surefire of the new generation. E1L and E2L Outdoorsman I find interesting lights.
E2D Defender also...

But that will be next year, because I decided to not get any more light this year...Wish me good luck!


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## Search (Sep 10, 2010)

I take back what I said. In the beginning of the thread you came off like you were arguing why SF was so popular. Given you've proved otherwise..

The very first non Mag I bought was a SureFire G2 from a a hunting store based on a whim. Over time I started buying more lights from various companies (whom I will not name). Well once I started to really use my lights with time I noticed which ones had been working for many, many months and which ones had been warrantied or sold for never ended problems.

Eventually, and by complete accident, I ended up only owning my SureFires. Not because I particularly liked them, but because nothing else stood up to my demands. 

Around that time I started in Law Enforcement. I now carry an M3 as a backup which sits in the car, an LX2 clipped onto my radio holster as my main light, a 6P in a holster (which is mainly there to fill in a void at this point) as an immediate backup while on calls or as a handout to someone who needs it) and depending on the pants I'm wearing an E1B in a cargo pocket, which has been an EDC since day one.

The 6P has been with me for over a year and the E1B since they came out. All original stuff. The M3 was bought by my SGT when they were released and is so old the anodizing on the tail cap has worn off from being turned on. We are actually still on the original MN10 bulb. Other than new grip rings that mother nature has worn it's still original. I was the first person to clean the threads on it. The LX2 is still in it's infancy 

The only other light I own is a Streamlight TLR-1s for my Glock but I trust their stuff just as much.

I don't expect people to go looking for good flashlights to find SureFire and just know. I expect them to do what most of us have done. We don't like SureFire because they are based on hype. We have all come to respect them from our own personal experiences and use. 

They get talked about so much because they have earned it by years of making damn good lights and standing behind them.


Because my E1B is always in my pocket, I get asked a lot how much I paid because people want one after seeing how bright it is. After their shock when I tell them I hand it to them and tell them to throw it as high or as far or against anything they want. When it continues to work the point becomes obvious.


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## TwinBlade (Sep 10, 2010)

Search said:


> I take back what I said. In the beginning of the thread you came off like you were arguing why SF was so popular. Given you've proved otherwise..


Hey, it's all good. I most definitely was not arguing them or bashing them. the crazy part of the web sometimes is it is difficult to convey emotion in words. Were I to actually speak the question to you, you would have seen pure inquisition, nothing more.:thumbsup:

As far as the rest of your post, I agree with everything you said. I would also like to add that Made in the USA, as mentioned earlier in this thread, holds a great deal of merit with me. I fought for this country and do my best to preserve her in my own little way every day.

I also could not help myself. There was a sale on a website and I picked up a Surefire C2L Centurion. The price was just too good not to.

I better try to step up my kydex sheath and holster sales. I am going to need more fun money than I anticipated...



Here is my 6PD with one of my favorite knives. I love this light.









Jeff:thumbsup:


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## Search (Sep 10, 2010)

Just wait until you want an M3, M4, or M6. You can never have enough :shakehead


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## Brigadier (Sep 10, 2010)

Search said:


> Just wait until you want an M3, M4, or M6. You can never have enough :shakehead



Quoted for absolute truth.


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## TwinBlade (Sep 11, 2010)

Baby steps guys, baby steps.

My aspirations are far greater than my checking account at the moment...

:scowl:


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## TwinBlade (Sep 11, 2010)

Well I just purchased a ThruNite P60 Style XP-G R5 300 Lumen Drop In - 3 Mode from Going Gear. After a LOT of thought last night and today, I opted for a 3 mode because of versatility. I really dislike strobes and blinky flashy stuff, but a REALLY dig the flashlights I have that change output modes. It works for me. 

If there were a 3 mode Malkoff, I would have bought that. I have a SF Centurion LED inbound and may drop a Malkoff in, but as I said, I really like the versatility. :thumbsup:


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## angelofwar (Sep 11, 2010)

Swedpat said:


> I started to buy a black 6P and a 9P. This because several reasons:
> 
> 1: The reputation of Surefire made me interested
> 2: I then understood that a flashoholic's collection would not be complete without at least a Surefire
> ...


 

K.I.S.S....Another thing SF has going for it!

Congrats on the C2L Twin Blade!


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## TwinBlade (Sep 11, 2010)

Well I just landed a 6P with the KX4 head on CPFM. 

My wife went through 90% of my guns, 90% of my knives, all of my bowhunting equipment...

hopefully she can go through this phase too...


LMAO!:shakehead


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## ebow86 (Sep 11, 2010)

Surefire's customer support and warranty is one of the biggest selling points for me. I know that if anything breaks, weather it's my fault or not, I am going to either get it fixed or replaced, no charge, no questions asked. I don't have that same assurance with other brands.

I believe that surefire's customer support and warranty is one of the biggest reasons why they are so sucessful as a buisness, you will overpay for most products but the assurance of their world class warranty is priceless.


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## fyrstormer (Sep 11, 2010)

carrot said:


> A surprisingly refreshing take on an old question.
> ...The reason I buy Surefire is the same reason I buy Spyderco, ESEE, Victorinox, Apple, and Endeavour and McGizmo and Dozier: these are companies or individuals who are really concerned with making a product for users.


You had me until you said "Apple".  If there is a company that DOESN'T want users to be able to upgrade and customize their tools to fit their individual needs, or to keep using hardware long past the point of obsolescence, Apple is it. All the others I agree with, though.

However, that's neither here nor there. The point remains that a SureFire will last forever if you take care of it and it's designed to be functional and usable, and due to their popularity there are also a lot of upgrade parts available for them.


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## TwitchALot (Sep 25, 2010)

Darell said:


> Guys... please! I keep letting folks convince me that CPF still has the same generous undertones that it started with. I really hate to see any thread swerve into the discussion of when it will be closed. Who wins from that? I think we can all see both sides to the problem here:
> 
> 1. New guy doesn't want to spend the time searching for answers because it is a waste of his valuable time.
> 2. Old guy doesn't want to spend time answering the question that's been asked an untold number of times before because (wait for it) it is a waste of his valuable tiem.
> ...



Great moderation Darell! :thumbsup:


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## Screwball (Sep 25, 2010)

I don't have even close to half the knowledge of the bulk of pepole here but for me my 6P feels right in the hand ,granted it has a drop in that at a guess sit about the 200 lumen (it was about the same as my TK11 on high)
The tk was moved on and the 6P is my go to light for nearly everything 
SF is now the only way to go in my opinion .
But as my old dad is fond of saying opinions are like your rear end everybody has one :naughty:


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## glazer1972 (Sep 25, 2010)

Surefire has an excellent reputation with regards to quality.


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## etc (Sep 27, 2010)

Screwball said:


> The tk was moved on and the 6P is my go to light for nearly everything
> SF is now the only way to go in my opinion .



I agree, 6P is the ideal EDC, with some kind of Malkoff module in it. You cannot go wrong with M61, M60L, etc. Have been using it for 1 year and stopped buying other lites. 6P is it!

Bored for 18650, you can have Li-Ion, or still take primaries. Amazing 6V in such a small package.


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## Solscud007 (Sep 27, 2010)

Ok there are just too many posts for me to waste time. I like to compare by analogy. 

twinblades, you are a knife and gun guy right?

there are plenty of examples of comparing apples to really freaking expensive apples. 

Look at http://knifetests.com/ He tests a Strider BT and a Coldsteel GI tanto. One costs hundreds of dollars while the other is a fraction of that cost. But they seem to perform similarly. Why would you want to spend couple hundred dollars on a strider when you can have a Coldsteel GI tanto that can pretty much do the same thing at a fraction of the price? who knows. its your personal preference. 

same goes for guns. take the famous 1911. There are your budget 1911 that cost about $400 then you have the super expensive and im not talking about custom guns. Like Wilson Combat, Nighthawk, or simply Kimber. Why do they cost so much more just to shoot the same bullet?

Look at AR-15s. Does a gas piston FN Scar really need to cost $2300? When you can buy a M&P for a LOT less jsut to shoot 223?

same goes with Surefires. In any hobby world, there are multiple ways and objects that can do the same for a lot less and or perform much more for the same money.

I can only speak for myself, but look at most Military, special forces, and law enforcement. They use Surefire. Sure there are exceptions but a LOT of them use Surefire. They perform and they perform all the time, every time. This is why I buy surefire.

My friend likes to buy Fossil watches. He has quite the collection, but I told him you should have used the money and bought something nice like a Rolex. It would last much longer. I have a GMT Master that was given to me. It is over 35 years old. Still run strong. I doubt a Fossil watch can run flawlessly for 35 years. But it is all in the eye of the beholder.

If you want something inexpensive then by all means go right ahead. 

Im sure people have mentioned Surefire's world class customer service. that is also a major issue. Im wondering, and this is purely speculation, that the reason you dont hear of inova and other brands failing, might be because hard use people dont use them? I could be wrong here. but just food for though.


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## TwinBlade (Sep 27, 2010)

Solscud007 said:


> Ok there are just too many posts for me to waste time. I like to compare by analogy.


I should help everyone else out here who has not followed this little adventure of mine.

I took this photo a couple days ago. :thumbsup:

This thread may have run it's course.


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## Solscud007 (Sep 27, 2010)

TwinBlade said:


> I better try to step up my kydex sheath and holster sales. I am going to need more fun money than I anticipated...
> 
> Jeff:thumbsup:




Ahh good man Jeff, Sorry for not reading. In terms of kydex, here is a little something I had a friend make for me. 

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/3536617&postcount=499

There have been two collaborations with Surefire. What you see in that thread link, is my Surefire Strider combo. the Strider ST is stamped with the Surefire logo. AFAIK there have been confirmed 290 something paired sets. The knife is serialized with a matching Surefire M2 that sports the Strider logo. 

The other collaboration is with Emerson knives. A CQC-8 with Surefire logo and serial along with a C2 in HA-BK, one two times Surefire has made an official C2 in black HA, the other being a C2 for Remington Military division.

Anyway you should start your craft and make EDC kydex holsters for Surefire lights. Just an idea, I would be interested.:welcome:


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## TwinBlade (Sep 27, 2010)

That is some good kydex work there. I also specialize in 2 piece designs as opposed to foldover. First, they look better IMO, and second, they are far more versatile for carry.

Truth be told, I have been laid off for 16 months now and have been doing kydex as a supplemental income along with knife sharpening and modifications. I took a job with a friend a few months back and got laid off from there as well. Frickin' economy is enough to make me want to spit.

The good news, is I may get back to work in the next couple weeks and I will be no longer doing kydex unless one of my military or LEO friends needs a hook up. If I don't get called back, that is another story. 

We shall see. I will keep that option open for the future. There is a big market apparently for flashlight kydex holsters. :thumbsup::thumbsup:

Jeff


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## Brigadier (Sep 27, 2010)

TwinBlade said:


> This thread may have run it's course.


 

Not until there is an M3, M4, or M6 in that picture!!  The M3 and on up is a whole new level of SureFire goodness.


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## TwinBlade (Sep 27, 2010)

Yeah. You ain't lying. The only problem is I am out of knives that I actually WANT to sell to fund these flashlights. 

There ain't a snowball's chance in hell that any of my guns are worth a few lights, so we won't even go there.


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