# NiMh Battery Shoot Out



## SilverFox

*Last Revision Date, 3/11/2008*

I will add graphs as I finish the testing. If you have some NiMh cells that you would like to see the test results of, contact me for my shipping address so I can borrow a couple of cells for testing.

The graphs will pretty much speak for themselves, so let's get started...

Brock asked me to put up a comparison at a 1.0 amp discharge rate. I thought of doing this type of graph for all the discharge rates, but decided to do individual graphs to show the performance range of the different cells. This will serve as a general comparison between cells. For a more detailed look, check the individual graphs.

This graph was getting extremely cluttered, so I have replaced it with a table. The cells are sorted by Watt Hours.







JT loaned me a couple of Quest Platinum AA cells that are rated at 2300 mAh. Thanks JT.





Sigbjoern loaned me some Kodak AA 1700 mAh cells and here is how they perform.





A big thanks to Sigbjoern, he also loaned me some of the CBP AA 1650 mAh cells. These are high current cells. Here is what they look like.





To get the maximum performance from the CBA 1650 cells, you need to run them hot. Here is the 15.0 amp test showing the performance difference between hot cells and room temperature cells. CAUTION: Running lights on these hot cells may result in insta-flashing the lamp.





Here are the results on the Energizer AA 2300 mAh cells.





Here is the graph of the Energizer AA 2300 mAh cells that Brody sent me. I am not sure why there is such a difference between his cells and mine, but his are more in line with what I expected from these cells.





I am not sure who makes these cells, but they have a green sleeve and are rated 1400 mAh. They were part of a promotion when I got my charger and I believe they are very inexpensive. I took the results of an average cell, but be advised that each cell (of the 4 I have) tested differently and the range from highest to lowest was about 30%. I have learned to lower my expectations of free cells...





Here is the data from some Radio Shack 1500 mAh cells I have been using.





Here are the results for the Titanium 2400 tests. These are one of my favorite batteries. They hold voltage very well and are capable of some misuse as well. I have been using these cells in my Battery Charger Shoot Out and have been very impressed with them. I have also been impressed that they are very consistent from cell to cell. They may not be the best in a 10 amp application, but they do very well for a consumer grade cell. I got my cells from www.amondotech.com and I will be getting more of these cells.

Brody pointed out in a post below that other people testing batteries have found the Titanium 2400 cells to be very good as well. Wayne, if you happen to read this, thanks for an excellent AA cell and I hope you don't feel the need to change it.

Here are the graphs of the Titanium 2400





I am also very impressed with the Titanium 2000 cells. They have the same ability to keep a higher voltage during discharge, but just have a bit less capacity. It almost seems to me that the cells are put through a sorting process and the high capacity cells are the 2400's and if they don't meet the higher capacity, they go into the 2000 bin. These cells are also very consistent from cell to cell and perform very well.





Sanyo has always been a strong performer. Here is the data from the Sanyo 2300 mAh cells. They are strong performers. Thanks Brody for providing these cells for testing.





Here is the results from the Duracell 2300 cells. Thanks Brody again.





Brody also sent me some Energizer 2500's. Thanks Brody. These are interesting in that the harder you hit them, the better they perform. Very impressive at 5.0 amps.





4/13/05 Brody also sent me some Sony AA 2300 cells. Here is how they check out.





Brody also sent me some La Crosse AA 2000 cells. I also have these cells as do most people that purchased the La Crosse charger. There is some inconsistency between cells, but it is not too bad. Considering they were free, they are not too bad. Here is the graph.






Brody also sent me some Sanyo HR Industrial AA 2500 cells. These are the ones in dark green shrink wrap. What can I say - these are excellent cells. Sanyo is known for their quality and it shows. Here is the data.





Brody also sent me some Sunpack AA 2300 mAh cells to check out. 2300 mAh is a GROSS overstatement. I am not sure what Sunpack is trying to do here, but their cells don't even come close to 2300 mAh. Here are the graphs.





Brody also lent me some JetCell AA 2400's. These came from www.RipVan100.com the same people that have the excellent charger the Lightning Pack 4000N. The only issue I have with this charger is that it charges pairs of cells rather than individual cells. These cells performed very well. Here are the graphs.





Litho123 loaned me some Ray O Vac AA 1800's. Thanks Greg. They actually look pretty decent. Here is the data.





Litho123 also loaned me some Ray O Vac IC3 2000's. These cells are designed to work with the Ray O Vac IC3 15 minute charger, but can be charged by other chargers as well. My Energizer 15 minute charger did not like them. At the end of charge, the IC3 cells interrupt the circuit and the Energizer 15 minute charger would start the charge cycle again. Several rounds of this and you end up with a IC3 cell getting hot and an Energizer 15 minute charger with a blinking red light indicating something is wrong. At any rate, the cells did well. Here is the data.





Litho 123 also sent me some Energizer AA 2100's. These are the cells that come with the Energizer 15 minute charger.






Here are the GP AA 1800's that Litho 123 sent me. I am not sure how these cells fit into use categories, but I have noticed that GP has some high performance (high current) cells that work best "hot off the charger." I tested these cells using my normal cool down because I believe this is representative of how we would use these cells in our lights. They do hold voltage very well at 5.0 amps.





Sigbjoern is having me check out some cells for him. One of these is the AccuPower AA 2600's. They did very well.





Sigbjoern's AccuPower C 6000 mAh cells.






Sigbjoern's AccuPower D 11500 mAh cells.





Sigbjoern's 4/5A cells from MaxAmps rated at 1800 mAh. These are geared to high current draw applications and do quite well.





Sigbjoern also has me going on some 2/3 A cells. These are GP 1100 mAh cells and I am very impressed with their performance. The are sensitive to heat. You will notice the similarities in the 15 and 20 amp curves. The 20 amp test was done with cells hot off the charger. When the cells cool down, they fall on their face at 20 amps. At any rate, these are some real performers.





Here is the data on the MaxAmps 2/3 A 1150 cells. Thanks Sigbjoern.





Here is the data on the KAN 2/3 A 1050 cells. Once again thanks Sigbjoern.

I was having fun playing with (testing) these cells. The test at 5.0 amps was done with "warm" cells (about 90 F) to see what effect a little temperature has. As you can see, it helps a lot.





You have to love a cell that gives it rated capacity at 3C. Sigbjoern had me look at some KAN 2/3 AA 650 mAh cells. These are great performers. Here is the graph.






Here is some data from Supreme Power AA 1800 cells. Thanks to whoever sent me these cells. I forgot who it was… It was Sigbjoern - Thanks.





Lasercrazy loaned me some Powerex AA 2300 mAh cells to check out. These cells check out for perhaps 1800 mAh cells, but are nowhere close to 2300 mAh cells. I wonder if they were mislabeled.





Lasercrazy also loaned me some Ansmann AA 2300 mAh cells. They look pretty good.





Rick88 sent me some X1 cells to check out. I am not sure who makes these cell, but they did pretty well. Thanks, and sorry it took so long to get them back to you.





I finally got some Titanium 2600 mAh cells. They are looking pretty good…






If I asked you to run down to the local store and pick up some Vapextech NiMh batteries, would you look at me and wonder what I was talking about? If you live “across the pond” you may be familiar with this brand, but I am not sure it is available in the US. Ian Lewis of www.component-shop.co.uk sent me some of these cells to test. I am very impressed with how they perform. They are advertised to be good to 7.5 amps. They are performing well at 5 amps, but fall on their face at 10 amps, so I can believe they could hold up at 7.5 amps. At any rate, at 5 amps they are doing quite well. If you happen to see these cells, don’t be afraid to purchase them. They held up quite well.

Here is the test data.






AmondoTech is offering some Titanium AAA 1000 mAh cells. These did pretty well for themselves. There are not many AAA cells that can hold up to a 3.0 amp discharge rate and maintain descent voltage. Here are the graphs.






William at www.MahaEnergy.com sent me some Powerex AA 2500 mAh cells to check out. Thank you William. I had tested some Powerex cells earlier, and they did not perform very well. I decided to really put these cells through their paces to see how well they perform.

In addition to the test runs, I used these cells in my PT Yukon Extreme and my Mag85 for several cycles. I have come to the conclusion that these are very good cells. They perform very well at high loads as well as at lower loads, and they seem to be holding up over the 40+ cycles I have put them through. 

I don’t know what happened to the earlier cells that I tested, but these 2500’s are very good performers.

I ran a test at a 7.5 amp draw because I was told that these cells were designed to hold over 1.0 volts at 3C. As you can see, they hold up to their specifications.

Here are the graphs. At 10 amps they kind of fall on their face, but they did not heat up and that’s a lot better than most consumer cells do.






UnderDog sent me some Sanyo Eneloop cells to check, along with the Sanyo NC-MDR02 charger. This is a 2 cell charger and I have not had a chance to fully check it out, but it is on the list. 

Thanks Mark.

The advantage of the Eneloop cells is that they have a reduced self discharge rate. Sanyo advertises that they have 85% of their original capacity after 1 year of room temperature storage. Keep in mind that the self discharge rate goes up at elevated temperatures.

Here is the graph.






Did you notice that at 10 amps the voltage is still holding above 1.0 volts?

The self discharge test revealed that in 31 days there is 93% of the original capacity remaining. I do not know if this self discharge rate remains linear, but in discussing the new battery chemistry with Wayne at AmondoTech, he mentioned that he is under the impression that the self discharge rate slows down the longer the cell is stored. It does not completely stop, but it is slowed down to almost nothing.

If we assume that what I measured in 31 days is linear (worst case), that means that at the end of a year you would end up with about 44% of the original capacity remaining. 

Considering that with a normal NiMh cell you would end up with 0% capacity left, this is still quite an accomplishment.

I tested a Sanyo 2500 mAh cell that has been stored at room temperature for 30 days. It ended up with about 82% of its initial capacity. It looks like the Eneloop cells do perform better...

Andy (MorePower) sent me some RayOVac Hybrid cells to check out. These are also low self discharge rate cells, and they did a very good job.

Here is the graph.






I have them at retaining around 86% of their initial capacity after 30 days. Not quite as good as the Eneloop cells, but much better than normal NiMh cells. Very impressive.

Thanks Andy.

LEDcandle sent me some Supreme Power 2300 mAh cells to check out. These are flat top cells similar to the CBP 1650 cells. These did quite well, but I am sure their performance could be improved if they were tested hot.

Here is the graph of the test results.






Shaocaholica sent me some AccuPower 2900 mAh cells to check out. Thanks.

These cells are strong performers and do have more capacity. They fell on their face at 10 amps and the test only lasted about a half a minute. I did not include the 10 amp test data.

Here is the graph.






Sanyo also has a high capacity cell listed at 2700 mAh with a minimum of 2500 mAh. These cells are also strong performers and did survive a 10 amp test, although the voltage dropped a lot during that test. The BC-900 (1000 mA charge 500 mA discharge) in test mode is showing around 2800 mAh when you discharge immediately after charging.

I had two batches of 4 cells to check out. Thanks Shaocaholica and Action. All 8 cells seemed to be reasonably well matched.

Here is the graph.







A slight digression, if I may... I know this is about various NiMh cells and how they perform, however, Ifoxbox sent me some 4/5A Sanyo KR-1100AEL NiCd cells to check out. You have to love NiCd cells for their ability to hold up under load. These are very strong cells. They finally started to drop off during the tests at 20 amps. That's a little over 18C. Impressive.

Thanks Jake. Now if they had 2500 mAh AA sized cells with this kind of performance...

Here is the graph.







Macdude22 sent me some Digital Concepts AA 2500 mAh cells to check out. These cells also have Rechargeable written on them. The seem OK for lower current draw applications, but do not handle high currents very well at all.

Here is the graph.







Well, what do you think of the new Titanium Power Max high current 1800 mAh cells...

Very impressive. Cold, they almost perform better than the CBP1650 cells hot. I have not looked at them "hot off the charger," but in "normal" use, they hold up very well.

You will notice that they fell on their face *AT 20 AMPS,* but were doing quite well at 15 amps. They are only rated at 18 amps, so I will cut them some slack. Also, note that they are at their rated capacity at a 1 amp draw.

I believe there are going to be some USL packs made from these cells because of their strong performance.

Here is the graph.






Macdude22 also sent me some Tenergy cells to test. I received 2 of the 2600 mAh and 2 of the 2300 mAh cells. Everyone knows that Tenergy is very optimistic with their labeling, so it should come as no surprise that they came in at less than their rated capacity.

The problem I had with these cells is that each cell tested differently. They are not consistent from cell to cell. I have done a couple of deep discharges followed by forming charges without improvement. I finally ran a Break In cycle on the Maha C9000.

Here are the results from the Break In:
Cell #1 labeled 2600 mAh, actual capacity is 2319 mAh
Cell #2 labeled 2600 mAh, actual capacity is 1960 mAh
Cell #3 labeled 2300 mAh, actual capacity is 1909 mAh
Cell #4 labeled 2300 mAh, actual capacity is 2035 mAh

I will not be posting graphs for these cell. The results are all over the place and not consistent from cell to cell. I have no idea of what is going on with these cells. Perhaps Macdude22 and give us some history on them.

Others have also observed the inflated capacity ratings, but have had good consistency from cell to cell. I will reserve any further comment until I have had a chance to check out some other Tenergy cells.

GCBStokes sent me some Titanium 2700 mAh cells to check out. The Titanium cells have been very strong performers. They are labeled a little optimistically, but then have been proven to have excellent cycle life.

These are not the cells to use for loads over 5 amps, but at lower loads they do very well.

Here is the data.






I had some Duracell 2400 mAh cells that I ran some test on.

Here is the data.






Codeman sent me some Duracell 2650 mAh cells to check out.

Here is the data.






Thanks Ray.


Here is some data from the Eneloop AAA 800 mAh cells. They seem to work well at lower current draws, but fall on their face at about 4 amps. That is impressive from an AAA cell.






MorePower also sent me some RayOVac Hybrid AAA 800 mAh cells to check out. These are also low self discharge rate cells. Like the Eneloop cells, they fell on their face at 4 amps, but that’s pretty good from an AAA cell.

Here is the data.







Thanks again Andy.

Cannesahs sent me some GP ReCyko AA cells to check out. The capacity was not labeled, so I guessed at 2050 mAh. EDIT: In fine print on the cell it states that these are 2100 mAh cells with a minimum of 2050 mAh. ENDEDIT These seem to be very strong cells. They fell under 1.0 volts under a 10 amp load, but still gave a decent performance. 

It will be interesting to see how well they keep their charge over time. These are supposed to be low self discharge rate cells.

Here is the graph.






Thanks Jyrki. Self discharge rate testing is in progress...



Tom


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## evan9162

How are you charging?


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## Bullzeyebill

Not so hot, the Quest cells. Have these been cycled a few times to bring capacity up?

Bill


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## SilverFox

Hello Evan,

Charging is done on a Vanson BC-1HU. Green light + 30 minutes.

Tom


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## SilverFox

Hello Bill,

Cycling is done in the "Refresh" mode on the La Crosse BC-900 charger at 500 mA charge rate and 250 mA discharge rate.

Tom


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## Hans

[ QUOTE ]
*SilverFox said:*
This is just getting started. I will add graphs as I finish the testing. If you have some NiMh cells that you would like to see the test results of, contact me for my shipping address so I can borrow a couple of cells for testing. 

[/ QUOTE ]

This is going to be very interesting. I'd quite like to see some results for the Sanyo 2300 mAh cells. My feeling is they're the best cells I ever used. 

However, shipping them to the US won't really make much sense ... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif

Hans


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## Bullzeyebill

Tom, would you like a couple of CBP 1650's to test?

Bill


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## SilverFox

Hello Bill,

Thanks, but Sigbjoern already loaned me 18 to check out. I will post the results shortly.

I just added graphs of the Kodak AA 1700 mAh cells.

Tom


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## Ginseng

Tom,
Please post your Titanium 2400 results as well. Those appear to be some very nice cells.
Wilkey


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## litho123

Hi Tom - 

Please PM me your addy along with qty of batts you need for testing.


I can send you the Ray-O-Vac I-C3 2000 nimh and also the GP 1800 nimh for testing.

Thanks for doing this!

Greg


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## SilverFox

Hello Greg,

Thanks, PM sent.

Tom


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## Bullzeyebill

Whooho! Look at those CBP 1650's. Looking really good out to 10amps. Will do everything, most everything, that CPF'er require in an AA, and competes with the 4/5A cells.

Bill


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## MrAl

Hi there,

Energizers look pretty good...im wondering how many cells
were tested...

Of the Duracells i've tested, i found them to be not
as good as that. Only one came near it's supposed rating,
and that one cell (out of four tested) was slightly
higher than it's rating.

Would be nice to see some more Duracells tested too.

Take care,
Al


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## SilverFox

Hello Al,

When someone offers to loan me cells for testing, I request at least 2. I do several tests on them after cycling them for a minimum of 4 cycles.

My own cells are usually bought in packs of 4.

The Energizer data is based on 8 cells that I was pleased to find that out of the pack they are very closely matched. 

I am amazed at how close most brands of AA cells are (cell to cell) once they are cycled a few times and properly charged. I have found a few that are under performing by around 3-5%, but for the most part they are very close.

C and D cells are another story...

Tom


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## DaGeek

Thanks very useful!!


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## MrAl

Hi Tom (SilverFox),

Oh ok, that's great. I was hoping to see some average 
results rather than just one or two cells tested.
I hope you can get to check Duracells at some point,
as i have found my group (of 4) wasnt exactly what
i expected from a major company like that.
From the graphs i see one of the other manufacturers
batteries didnt perform too well either, but i like
the looks of the Energizers.

Im finding that many of my applications require either
low current or low useage -- either of which isnt a good
app for using NiMH's so i'll probably be turning more
and more to Li-ion's (higher voltage per cell too).
The problem with the low current device i find is that
the self discharge is the main factor in determining
when the cell(s) will need charging again, and ditto
for low useage. I still like using the cells somewhat
however, because, after all, they are rechargable so 
they can be used many times over.

Take care,
Al


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## paulr

I'd be interested in seeing tests of the Batteryspace (Powerizer) 2300 mah cells since those are very attractively priced:

http://batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=245&HS=1


Also, where can I buy some CBP's, and should I bother, for a Mag85? If I can get reasonable results with the Powerizers, I might use those instead, since they're sold in bunches of 24.


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## PeLu

[ QUOTE ]
*Hans said:* like to see some results for the Sanyo 2300 mAh cells. My feeling is they're the best cells I ever used. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I agree, they have a higher capacity (at 0.8A) than the Varta IC-3 2.3Ah cells. 
Usually they are a little above 2.2Ah when charged with the Uniross.
Waht about the 2.5Ah Sanyo?


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## SilverFox

Brody sent me some cells to check out. Thanks Brody.

He just happened to send me some Energizer 2300's. I have already posted results on these cells and was going to pass over them, however I decided to run a few tests just to see how they compare.

They are far better than the cells that I have. I am not sure what is going on with these cells, but I will be posting another Energizer graph of the cells Brody sent me. 

My cells were purchased at Wal Mart in an 8 pack and I have been using them for some time in my GPS. It uses 4 at a time and shuts off when the cells are down to about 1.0 volts. My cells are very evenly matched.

Brody's cells (he sent me 2 of them to check out) are also evenly match, but are performing much better. My cells fall flat on their face at a 3.0 amp discharge. Brody's cells are taxed at 3.0 amps, but they try to hold about 1 volt.

This is quite shocking, I had expected Energizer's to be more consistent. I will have to get in touch with Brody and see when and where he got his cells from.

I guess the old saying still holds true:

Your mileage may vary...

Tom


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## yuandrew

Have you tried regular Rayovac Ni-Mh's ?

I have some or you can get them at Wal-Mart


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## paulr

It may be nuts but I'm about to order a pile of Sanyo HR-3U 2500 mah cells from batterystation ($2.50 ea, almost double what the Powerizer cells cost). Tony, PM me your address and I'll send you some of them when they arrive.


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## Brody

I got my Energizer 2300's at Best Buy about a year ago. They mostly have just been powering my MP3 CD player most of the time. I would just recharge them once a week or so on my Lightning Pack 4000 charger. I normally listen to my CD player about 2-4 hours a day. I know that the player can go about 30 hours or so if I let it play continuously until it stops. 
I was almost not going to send the Energizer 2300's since you had already told me that you had some, but I decided to send 2 anyway. I felt pretty much the same way with the La Crosse cells that I got with my charger, since I know that your set is probably about the same age as mine.
I look forward to seeing how the other cells that i sent perform. I know others are looking forward to seeing results from Duracell 2300's, Energizer 2500's, Sanyo 2300's, Sanyo 2500's like I sent you. I also like the Jetcell 2400's I sent. I sent some Sunpak 2300's as well, but for me, the Sunpak's have always performed very poorly.
(Oh, the Sanyo 2500's I sent were the industrial grade variety. That is why they are just in plain green labels. However, the industrial cells are supposed to be more resistant to damage, and are supposed to be able to recharge for more cycles than the consumer grade cells, so it will be interesting to see how they do)


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## litho123

[ QUOTE ]
*yuandrew said:*
Have you tried regular Rayovac Ni-Mh's ?

I have some or you can get them at Wal-Mart 

[/ QUOTE ]

I sent SilverFox: 
the Ray-O-Vac I-C3 2000 nimh
the regular Ray-O-Vac 1800 nimh (from Wally world)
the GP 1800 nimh
to test.
I know he'll post the results just as soon as he can.
I'd like to know too.


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## koala

I stand corrected with those Energizer 2300mAh cells results. Most of us know they are actually rebadged Sanyo HR2300 but what 'bin' is unknown. Most of my Energizer 2100mAh cells can delivered at least 2.0Ah at 0.5C(1.0Ah) discharge.

From the posts above, there seems to be different opinion on cells capacity. Could it be difference from batch to batch? Could it be the 'quality' of metals material used in the cells that affects the performance?

Another one, has anyone tried out the green+orange sleeve GP AA/AAA cells? I've seen alot of RC people racing high discharge with GP 3300 cells.

-vince.


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## SilverFox

Hello Paul,

PM sent.

Tom


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## SilverFox

Hello Brody,

I guess we must have cells from different batches. I knew there must be some differences between batches, but am shocked at how big the difference is. It seems like the overall capacity is about the same, but my cells will not hold voltage as well as yours.

By the way, my La Crosse charger capacity results are very similar to yours. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif The actual test results show a bit less capacity because of the way I am testing. The La Crosse charger will start the discharge test immediately after charging the cell. I let the cell cool down for 30-60 minutes before testing.

Tom


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## SilverFox

Hello Vince,

I believe Greg sent me some Energizer 2100's as well as some GP 1800's to test.

I am not sure what to make of the differences... Let me get the graph up so we can all see how much of a difference there is.

The casual user may not notice a difference at all, but in a multi cell light that pushes the battery a bit, there could be a vast difference in performance.

This makes me appreciate chargers like the La Crosse (and the ICE /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif ) that have a test function allowing you to check your cells out.

Tom


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## SilverFox

OK, I have the comparison of the two batches of Energizer 2300's up.

The overall capacity is about the same at the lower current rates, but Brody's cells hold voltage much better than mine.

Tom


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe

Somebody get this man some Energizer/Sanyo 2100s!!!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif


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## litho123

[ QUOTE ]
*PlayboyJoeShmoe said:*
Somebody get this man some Energizer/Sanyo 2100s!!!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif 

[/ QUOTE ]

Energizer 2100's have already been sent to SilverFox for testing...just awaiting posting of results!


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## Brock

Tom can you put say all the 1 amp loads in to one chart so we can compare between them. I know some are better at higher loads and some better for lower loads. Maybe .5a is the most common load on AA's???


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## tbone_Ike

Tom,

I just ordered a 4-pack of AccuPower 2400mA cells I'd like to loan you for testing. Could you PM me your info & I'll send them out to you when I get them?

Thanks for your hard work!
-jeff


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## SilverFox

Hello Brock,

Graph at 1.0 Amp discharge rate is up.

Jeff,

PM sent.

Tom


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## Brock

Thanks!

Dang those CBP's really hold the voltage under load, anyone have a link?


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## tbone_Ike

Brock,

Looks like these may be the CBP's here

-jeff


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## Pajamas

Tom,

What about Titanium's 2500 mAH? Do you have any or someone sending some to you? I'm curious how the Titaniums are performing.....

Thanks.


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## Lurveleven

[ QUOTE ]
*SilverFox said:*
Hello Al,

When someone offers to loan me cells for testing, I request at least 2. I do several tests on them after cycling them for a minimum of 4 cycles.


[/ QUOTE ]

When sending him AA cells, please send him at least 4. By doing this he will be able to test if they fit 4 across in an unbored Mag body. I'm getting him a Modamag adapter to do the testing with.

Sigbjoern


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## Lurveleven

[ QUOTE ]
*Pajamas said:*
Tom,

What about Titanium's 2500 mAH? Do you have any or someone sending some to you? I'm curious how the Titaniums are performing.....

Thanks. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Where did you find Titanium 2500? Or did you mean the 2400? (2400 is the max I have seen).

Sigbjoern


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## tbone_Ike

Has anyone been able to get any 2600mA AA cells? It appears that both AccuPower and Ansmann Energy have them available in Europe currently (and possibly some 'off-brands' as well).
Just curious /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
-jeff


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## Lurveleven

Tom should be getting some 2600 AccuPowers soon.
The new AccuPower batteries will be available for sale in the US in the end of April. These will include 2600mAh AA cells, 6000mAh C cells and 11500mAh D cells.

Sigbjoern


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## Hans

[ QUOTE ]
*tbone_Ike said:*
Has anyone been able to get any 2600mA AA cells? It appears that both AccuPower and Ansmann Energy have them available in Europe currently.

[/ QUOTE ]

That would be quite interesting. So far my experience with Ansmann AA cells hasn't been all that positive, so it would be quite interesting to see what their latest offering is like.

My personal favourites are still the Sanyos ... they're great IME.

Hans


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## wtraymond

Has anyone seen this site before. He's done a great job.

Battery Review - NiMH AA


----------



## PeLu

[ QUOTE ]
*tbone_Ike said:*
Has anyone been able to get any 2600mA AA cells? 

[/ QUOTE ]

The 2600mAh (labelled) I've tested had been far below 2Ah. 
Ansmann has changing results, some of their products are not bad, some are not betetr than any cheap nonames.

[ QUOTE ]
*wtraymond said:*
Has anyone seen this site before. He's done a great job.

[/ QUOTE ] Yes, this site is common knowledge around here, but it does not come close to Silverfox' tests .-)

And it is usually far behind the market, it was wuite up to date a few years ago.


----------



## SilverFox

Look what happens when you run the CBP 1650's hot...

Wow!!!

Tom


----------



## VidPro

Hi SilverFox
the charts are GREAT, makes me happy to know i bought the right cells 

I have a question for your CBA
Does it maintain the exact same CURRENT load, when the batteries have dropped in voltage?

When they used a resister pack , type loading, (old style testing), they would put a LOAD on that was a certian initial load (like .1ohm resistance), and as we all know that will reduce in current as the voltage drops.

resister packs are more like direct driving , and not at all like a lot of the curcuits in the newer electroics stuff that is voltage regulated, like some of the digital cameras.

most of the stuff in most of the flashlights drops in current use when the voltage drops, even when it has various current regulators.

so is this thing putting on a specific LOAD by current or by resistance which will change as the voltage drops?

in other words
Is the load more like a DC-DC booster?
or
like a direct driven incadescent or led?

wouldn't a 'perfect' DC-DC booster, try to pull even MORE juice out of the cells as the voltage lowered to maintain the same current?
so them with a great dc-dc current maintaining thing, we would need a cell that really handled the juice especially at the end of its existance.
With a Direct drive, , like say, running Alkalines Direct Drive , as the alkalines drop so to does the load ON them, which can balance thier poor output capacity by reduced need.


----------



## Brody

Another good site for a battery shootout is at:
www.techchallenge.com/page2.html


----------



## SilverFox

Hello VidPro,

The CBA tests are done at a constant current load.

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Brody,

It is nice to see that other people testing batteries have found the Titanium 2400 cells to be excellent performers. I have just posted my test results on the 2400's as well as the 2000's.

I just happen to agree that they are very good cells and perform very well.

Thanks for the link. 

Tom


----------



## davidefromitaly

it's unbeliveable that the energizer 2500 are strongest than energizer 2300... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif


----------



## Brody

I am sure that a big reason the Energizer 2500's did better than the Energizer 2300's is because they were newer cells. Silverfox was just commenting about how big a difference there was between his Energizer 2300 cells, and the ones I sent in.


----------



## John N

[ QUOTE ]
*davidefromitaly said:*
it's unbeliveable that the energizer 2500 are strongest than energizer 2300... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif 

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? What did I miss? Why is it a suprise that the 2500s run better than the 2300s?

-john


----------



## Luna

The cool this is that you can get the energizer 2500 4 Pack at Walmart for around $9.50 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

They instaflashed two 1185s (9cells) but if I do a short discharge cycle at 3 amp (just a few seconds) all is well. 

So they are hot off the charger but not too bad.

-Craig


----------



## davidefromitaly

John because usually more is the capacity more they suffer under higher load


----------



## Ginseng

Tom,

Very interesting data on the hot CBP1650. I wonder if that is due to the fact that they are coming directly off-charger or that they are hot. For example. what would you expect to see if you took some rested cells and heated them up (for example, in an air-tight ziploc in hot water) and tested them?

Wilkey


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Wilkey,

It is my humble opinion that heat is heat... However I just happen to have some room on my Schulze isl 6-330d (see the Charger Comparison thread for more details) so I'll charge a couple up and see what happens.

I'll go to full charge, let the cells come back to room temperature (about 30 minutes), submerge them in hot water, then test at 15 amps. Sound good?

Tom


----------



## paulr

Better put the cells in a sealed ziploc bag before submersion. Unless the water is very pure, it may conduct electricity slightly and affect the experiment by partially draining the cells.


----------



## paulr

OK, my Sanyo 2500 mAH cells arrived from Battery Station. If Brody has already sent you some of these, do you still want me to send some? I'm interested in using some of them in a Mag85 so the performance at 3-4 amps is important. I may have to hold out for CBP 1650's if those ever become available again.

I also just got an Energizer 15 min charger with four 2200 mAH Energizer cells and can you those if you want to test them. Also available are the four off-brand 2000 mAH cells that came with my LaCrosse BC-900 charger.

If of any interested, I tested some Powerex (Maha/Thomas Distributing) "1600 mAH" cells on the Lacrosse using the discharge/refresh function. After several charge cycles (it took around 24 hours) they came out at 1150-1200 mah, pretty disappointing. These were several year old cells that I'd bought and then never used.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Paul,

Brody sent me some Sanyo 2500's in a dark green shrink wrap that he marked "Industrial." Does that sound like the same ones you have?

I am just starting on those, so it will be a couple of days before the test results are up.

I do not have an Energizer 15 minute charger. I would love to take a look at it, but would hate to have you suffer withdrawal symptoms... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Tom


----------



## Ginseng

Tom,

Yes, that sounds fine. I suspect the effect you're seeing is predominantly temperature as well. But it would be great to be able to definitively decouple that from the charge effect.

You're doing great and in some ways thankless work. We're all benefiting from this great influx of information so, thank you!

Wilkey


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Wilkey,

Interesting results...







Tom


----------



## paulr

Tom, yes, I have the same industrial Sanyo cells with the green sleeves.

On another note, I mentioned the Energizer 15 min charger came with four 2200 mAH (yes they are 2200) cells and I charged up the cells on it. I then put the cells on the BC900 discharge/refresh function which is not yet complete (I think it's done 2 cycles since last night). It's at 1000 mA charge and 500 mA discharge and all 4 cells are already measuring slightly over 2200 mAH. That is very impressive. It makes me wonder whether the 2200 and 2500 mah cells are really the same cells with different labels for market differentiation. Every other cell I've tested has measured at somewhat lower than its nominal capacity. (OTOH, I expect the BC900 does its discharge and measurement immediately after fast-charge termination, which means there's still a little bit of capacity left that could be filled by extra time spent trickle charging).

I guess I can send you the 15 min charger if you want to play with it for a while. But they're just $22.99 online at target.com and I think they're an excellent value, especially with such good cells.


----------



## John N

[ QUOTE ]
*SilverFox said:*
Hello Wilkey,

Interesting results...


[/ QUOTE ]

Wow! 

I guess test results should probably report tempature in order to be properly considered. 

I wonder if this is used by mfgs. when they claim their ratings.

-john


----------



## Bullzeyebill

As a side note, regarding CBP1650's, got an email from CBP. The 1650's are back in stock.

Bill


----------



## SilverFox

Hello John,

All of my testing, unless indicated otherwise, is done at room temperature (very close to 68 F). I figure that most of us use our cells after they have had some time to cool down, so this should give results close to what we will see when used in our lights.

Please note that this method of testing is different than the La Crosse charger uses. It begins the discharge test immediately after charging the cell up. At higher charge rates, the cell is "hot off the charger" which gives slightly higher readings. This is hard wired into the charger. 

It still gives a good indication of the condition of the cell. I might add that a lot of the cells that Brody sent me have tags on them giving his results from his La Crosse charger. My charger matches his results very closely. This is a good check of consistency between the La Crosse chargers.

This may also offer a clue why some lamps insta-flash when the light is run "hot off the charger."

Tom


----------



## Ginseng

Tom,

Interesting indeed! A 0.135V/cell differential at 50% is no miniscule diffrence. An 11-cell pack (such as for the USL) would show a cumulative difference of 1.485V. That's enormous! I'm almost afraid to ask what the temperature effect would be with the standard high cap cells such as the Titanium and Energizers.

I know GP make cells specifically for high temperature use but mainly for extended trickle charging at elevated temperatures. 

BTW, did you record the terminal temperature of the rested cool cells (or the other cells) at end-of-test? Wow, I'm still reeling.

Wilkey

Wow, the implications for the USL testing...I wonder what tvodrd would see versus the SF Beast if he warmed up the USL first. I imagine it would be a lot closer but only using the LongLife bulb. The axial unit would blow for sure. Wow.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Wilkey,

The CBP 1650 cells at 15 amps end up at around 115-118 F.

The cells I heated up, started at 110 F, then cooled off to about 98 F, then finished at 116 F.

The cells hot off the charger started at 93 F and rose to 118 F at the end of the test.

At lower current rates, the cells start at about 68 F and end up at about 83 F.

My method of heating the cells involved using some re-usable hand warmers. They warm up to 120 F. I put a hot pad down on the table, put the cell on top of the hot pad, put the hand warmer on top of the cell and formed it to the cell, then popped the button to activate the hand warmer. About 5 minutes later, I turned the cell over and continued heating for another 5 minutes. My temperature probe showed a starting temperature of 110 F at the start, and it cooled some from there. It did not take long (at 15 amps) to get the temperature back up. I thought the voltage held pretty good in contrast to the hump on the room temperature test that showed a small voltage rise when the cell came back up to temperature.

It would appear that charging does a better job of heating the cell up than my make-shift oven. At any rate, heat helps these cells.

Tom


----------



## Ginseng

Thanks for describing your protocol. I think it makes sense.

As for the chemistry that accounts for this behavior, I'm at a loss. However, now I see why CBP might have been able to demonstrate different performance in their testing.

Wilkey


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Wilkey,

Here  is some very interesting information on the effects of temperature on cell performance. Although the loads are higher than what we are looking at, I think it demonstrates similar results.

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

I just posted the data for the Sanyo Industrial AA 2500 cells. These are the ones with the dark green shrink wrap. Excellent cells. They give the Titanium 2400's a run for the money in keeping the voltage up under load, and beat them in capacity.

Sanyo has always been know for their quality, and it shows in these cells. 

When you do a discharge test immediately after charging them (as the La Crosse charger does) they give you more capacity than they are rated at. 

Excellent cells.

Tom


----------



## raggie33

ty for the info silverfox will the engezer 2500 be the same? i think sanyo made the energizer 2500


----------



## juancho

Hi Guys, having headaches trying to follow all this in the thread.
I just get my spanking new cbp1650 in the new colorful exterior, I put them in my Fivemega 3 to 9 holder and powered the Mag85, very nice!
Now I have to wait for my Maha 777 II from light-edge to get here to recharge them, as they don't make contact in my regulars chargers.
Now, here is the question: what is the technique to charge them in the regular charger?? it is a drop of solder in the positive??
or solder some small washer and fill up with solder?
By the way, they fit in the waion adaptors, but make contact just barely!! I had to jiggle and open and close the cover a couple of times.
The fit in the Fivemaega 3 to 9 is tight but they fit, and I like that been flat tops they stay put and don't twist around when I screw the tail-cap back into the flashlight.

Another question for you Ginseng, I have a 4 D where I am going to put 12 of these cbp1650 in waion adaptors, will the 01166 take the push from these batteries, if not, will take from Titanium 1800 ?? Another question, I noticed that Fivemega adaptors 3 to 9 are now coming with brass fittings and positives instead of the aluminum that they have before.
It is any difference in resistance bewteen the two? have anybody have meassure it??
Does brass conduct electricity better than aluminum?

Thank you for the incoming answers
regards
Juan C.


----------



## cognitivefun

*juancho*, what kind of difference in brightness do you observe in your Mag86 with the CBP1650s?


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Raggie,

The Energizer 2500's and the Sanyo Industrial 2500's are quite close, but the Sanyo's are a bit better.

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Juan,

I have been using 1/8" rare earth magnets (Radio Shack #64-1895) to charge flat top cells in the Vanson and AccuManager chargers.

Tom


----------



## Ginseng

Hi Juan,

The 1166 draws 1.97A so the voltage drop will be minimal. Its rated voltage is 11.6V so a fresh 12-pack will deliver over 15 volts. I would consider this extreme and almost certainly in instaflash territory. Even on 2400mAh cells like the titanium will provide an extreme initial spike. I base this on testing of Amondo Titanium 2400 cells at 2.3A which shows better than 15V for a 12-pack. 10 is very safe. 11 is a big push and 12 not likely to be good at all. I could be wrong but the low current demand is a strong point insofar as runtime but not so good for tolerating a big push.

I would not worry about the aluminum versus brass. Any resistance difference is more likely to be a result of surface cleanliness than the intrinsic conductivity of the two materials. 

I'd use the small flat rare earth magnets from K&J magnetics or any one of a number of sources. Small, cheap and very low resistance due to the nickel coating.

Wilkey


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe

Phooey!

I haven't found any reason to seriously dislike Energizer 2100. But they won't fit 4 across in an unbored M*g.

And if 2100 won't fit, there ain't no way in he-double hockey sticks that 2500 will!

I guess I gotta visit the auto parts store for a hone of some sort.

But 2100 seem to do fine in the FM adapters and make good light.


----------



## Spacemarine

These Sanyo 2500 industrial look really interesting. Their charts look very much the same as the Energizer 2500, it seems Energizer uses the same cells.

Where can I buy these Sanyo 2500 industrial? Perhaps they are cheaper than the Energizer 2500. I found some "normal" (not industrial) Sanyo 2500 cells on eBay, does anybody know if these are the same as the industrial ones?


----------



## paulr

The Sanyo HR-3U 2500 mAH industrial cells are $2.50 at Batterystation. You can get Energizer 2500's for about the same if you shop around.


----------



## juancho

congnitivefun, 
I could not really tell a differemce as I have two differents heads, both 3" but one has the smooth reflector and the other the orange peel, I had the new cbp1650 in the smooth, so of course I see a more powerful and concentrated beam. In the 3" LOP I had Titanium 1800 that have performed for me very well in brightness with regular 2" reflectors.
Maybe another day I will do some shooting test.

Silverfox and Ginseng, Thank you for your answers I will get some of those magnets.
Ginseng, thank you for the input in the 1166, it is much appreciated.
Juan C.


----------



## Pila_Power

Wow1 I just read all of those posts and found it to be very interesting. Thanks to Tom and anyone else involved in helping to get this together.

I really know very little about batteries but am trying to learn and this thread helped (by raising a million more questions) hahaha. Oh well, we stop learning when we die I guess /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Tim.


----------



## Brody

Well, it definately looks like I wasn't just imagining things when I said the Sunpak cells definately underperform compared to other brands. My favorite types remain the Sanyo industrial 2500's followed by Energizer 2500's and Jetcell 2400's. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
I don't think I really need any more Nimh batteries for a while. (although I might get some high discharge cells if I build an 8 cell Mag85) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Hopefully, others will find the data from my batteries valuable.


----------



## litho123

Hi Tom - 

Any more batts been tested?

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif


----------



## Lurveleven

He has probably been busy with other stuff lately, but I know he has other batteries lined up for testing.

Sigbjoern


----------



## paulr

I have 4 of the Sanyo industrial 2500 mAH cells cycling on a LaCrosse BC-900 right now. After about 2 days of conditioning, two now read "full" while the other two are still cycling (700 mA charge, 350 mA discharge). All four of them so far measure slightly below the 2500 mAH spec (2.49, 2.42, 2.43, and 2.48 AH, the last two being the "full" ones). This is slightly disappointing compared with the Energizer-labelled 2200 mAH cells that came with my 15 minute Energizer charger. Three of the four tested slightly above 2200 mAH and the other came in at 2190 mAH.


----------



## Lynx_Arc

A comparison I would like to see would be a price/mah at various battery drain rates. Sure it is nice to have the highest capacity cell but for general use sometimes having a dozen generic cells with less capacity at a cheaper price is better than 4 or 6 premium cells with perhaps 30-50% more capacity per cell.


----------



## SilverFox

Sorry about the problem with the graphs not showing up earlier. PhotoBucket only allows me 1.5 gigs of free bandwith a month. I decided to pay for their premier service, so that should not be a problem (for at least a year /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif ).

Thank all of you that kept me informed of this problem.

I have added some graphs.

The AccuPower AA 2600 mAh cells are very solid performers. I also added some C and D cells from AccuPower as well.

Sigbjoern has me checking out some other sized cells as well. I posted the results from the MaxAmps 4/5 A 1100 mAh cells and I am working on some 2/3 A cells as well.

Those that have sent me cells to test - Thank you.

Those whose cells I am still working on (Greg, John, Jeff, Harry, Jim, and Sigbjoern), please bare with me. I am working on these as fast as I can.

When I finish this current batch, I think I will take some time off from testing. My wife is reminding me about some landscaping projects and painting the house...

Tom


----------



## Lurveleven

Tom, I want to thank you for the great job you have done on testing all these cells I and others have sent you. You really deserve to take some time off now, and I don't want to see your testing having negative effect on your marriage.
Maybe I can pick up the thread now that I get my CBA? And I don't have a wife to worry about /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

A big thanks also goes to AccuPower that sent me the cells Tom have been testing. It shouldn't be long before these are available for sale. 
I have been in contact with a lot of battery companies, and of the ones selling consumer type cells, AccuPower is the one with best customer support (it is miles ahead of the competition). It doesn't hurt that they have some of the best performing products either (and in some categories they are the best).

Sigbjoern


----------



## tbone_Ike

Tom, don't feel you have to test my cells if you need some time off. I'm happy to see the 2600mA AccuPower cell results are good and those are the ones I would buy anyway (as soon as their available in US).

I think we are all very grateful for your efforts and don't want you to get burned out working so hard on this project and trying to get thing done around the house. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/goodjob.gif

Sigbjoern, thank for your contributions with the cells and the offer to continue this project while letting Tom take care of some more important business. I'm becoming quite a fan of AccuPower as well, and I am very glad to see good results with their new cells /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/happy14.gif

-jeff


----------



## John N

[ QUOTE ]
*tbone_Ike said:*
Tom, don't feel you have to test my cells if you need some time off. 

...

I think we are all very grateful for your efforts and don't want you to get burned out

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto.

-john


----------



## paulr

I've now conditioned twelve Sanyo HR-3U 2500's on my LaCrosse BC-900. All but one or two of them came out below 2500 mAH, averaging around 2450 with a couple at 2380 or 2390. So, it's not realistic to call 2500 a "typical" capacity; it's more like "this is the max". Granted 100 mAH down is just 4%, but of the four Energizer 2200's that I tested (supposedly they are also HR-3U's), three were slightly above 2200 and one was at 2190, iirc. So maybe 2500 mAH is pushing the limits? I have some Energizer 2500's that I might also charge up, though I have so many charged NiMH's now...

Btw, my Sanyo 2500's were in the green sleeves and had "Dec 2004" (or 12/04 or something) clearly stamped on them, no mysterious codes to try to guess the mfgr date from. And all were charged to 1000 mAH or so. I suspect they were fully charged at the factory so this tells you the self-discharge rate.


----------



## litho123

Thanks Tom for testing the Ray-O-Vac and GP batteries.

The GP1800's fit 4 across snugly in a modamag 8AA-2D holder.
Add a dumdum AA and a WA 1274 bulb and it is one sweet light!

I trust the gift will be shared with the MRS. My wife has become addicted to the place.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Greg,

Thanks again.

As it turns out, my wife loves coffee nudges... and a full bodied coffee makes a very good nudge. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

I have added the results for some 2/3 A cells.

All I can say is that there is a lot of power from a very small package...

Tom


----------



## junglemike

Ah, I just love those graphs. I can stare at them for hours, like exhibit at the museum 

I'm wondering , why isn't there any NICD cells , only NIMH.
Well, i understand that nimh's have larger capacity, but nicd's suppose to have some other advantages, 
here's what batteryuniversity says:
a) nicd's have _segnifically_ longer life time
b) they have much smaller internal resistance, and therefore can autup even 20C current.
c)they have much more tolerance for overcharge and can reconditioned and restore lost capacity much better than nimh

Are those advantages are still valid now? or nodern nimh's outperform nicd's even in these aspects?


----------



## Bullzeyebill

If I could find a good brand of 2000mA nicd AA's I would buy them, and hotwire guys would gladly use them.

Bill


----------



## koala

Just in case the cells Tom tested does not appeal to you and you want to go for a cheapo, do think twice...

Fortunately, they are not mine /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif.


----------



## Bullzeyebill

Koala, what happened? All four cells were charged and one leaked? Is Sony's warning the problem? Cells left in charger too long? What was final charging voltage of cells? First time cells were charged. Need more info before Powerizer NiMh AA's are deemed defective (cheapo).

Bill


----------



## koala

The author did not say much about the cells. The cells are new.

These 2250mAhs are older than the current Powerizer 2300mAh on the market. From what I can tell/guess, the cell was charged at 0.46C. It could be the charger’s fault without built in temperature monitoring or it could have been a faulty one. If it is the problem with the cell then that means the cell has rapid temperature rise that the charger couldn’t stop in time. It looks so hot that not only the cell shrink was destroyed but also melted the charging bay.

I have 14 Powerizer 2300mAh and I didn't have any problem with them.

-vince.


----------



## AmondoTech

For NIMH AA batteries, one should look at three parameters. The capacity is only one of the three.

1. Run time, capacity. Don't just trust the number printed on the sleeve. Tom probabaly can tell you more on this.

2. Cycle life. How is battery capacity holding up after a few hundred cycles? This is very difficult to test without an advanced analyzer. 

3. Battery discharge voltage and internal resistance.

For quality NIMH AA batteries, you should expect to pay more. Wholesale price on quality NIMH AA batteries are above $1 so don't expect to get quality NIMH batteries at $1. Anything too cheap will almost guarantee cheap quality. 

Regards,
Wayne


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Wayne,

I was just thinking about cycle life. I don't have the proper set up to test that, but can say that my Titanium 2400 cells are still going strong and testing nearly the same capacity after around 175 cycles.

My Energizer 2300 cells have not done as well. They only have about 80 cycles on them and are showing signs of higher internal resistance. It is interesting to observe that all 8 of my Energizer cells are behaving the same. Brody sent me some Energizer 2300 cells that performed a lot better than my cells, but I don't know the history or number of cycles on them.

Tom


----------



## blr

The most important factor determining cycle life is charging. Any amount of overcharge will shorten cycle life. Sanyo writes in their technical papers on NiMH cells that charging with -dV termination will shorten cycle life by about 20% compared to charging with 0dV (peak voltage detection). This is providing that the voltage drop that will triger shut-off is 10 mV per cell or less. Many chargers are not sensitive enough to detect this and will continue charging until 20-30 mV per cell is detected. Depending on the current you are chargin at this can cause excessive heating and increase of internal pressure. I estimate that the average fast "smart" -dV charger charging at something like 1000 mA with -dV termination shortens the cycle life by at least 30-40%. Many people don't care about it. Indeed the cells are more likely to be replaced by newer higher capacity ones before the end of their life. For heavy everyday users it may matter however. The problem is that some cells cannot take the abuse of a typicall fast -dV charger as we could see from Koala's pictures. I wouldn't consider something that heats my cells to 50C and above safe. Venting not only destroys your cells but is potentially very harmfull. See this electrolyte leaking. This is a very concentrated hydroxide solution. It causes burns upon contact with skin


----------



## Billson

Tom,

At what voltage do you terminate the test?

Thanks.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Billson,

On single cell test I terminate at 0.8 volts and report to 0.9 volts.

On multi-cell tests I terminate at 0.9 volts per cell.

Tom


----------



## Billson

Tom,

Thanks.


----------



## rdshores

Do you have any plans to test AAA NiMh batteries?


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Rdshores,

I have some data from tests already done. I will be posting those test results shortly. It will not be as extensive as the AA tests, but should be a good sample.

Tom


----------



## rdshores

SilverFox...
Thanks for the reply...I was curious because I have some 750ma Titanium AAA cells that only seem to test at 600ma on my BC-900. I know the Titanium 2400 AA cells are good, so I was wondering if the Titanium AAA were too.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Rdshores,

I know nothing about the Titanium AAA's.

600 mAh doesn't sound too bad for a discharge rate of 0.5 amps. To get to the 750 mAh, I think you need to discharge at about 0.15 amps.

What discharge rate were you using on the BC900?

Tom


----------



## rdshores

SilverFox:

Written on the cell label is:
Standard Charge: 15 hrs at 75ma
Fast Charge: 5 hrs at 225ma

Therefor I left the BC900 set on the default 200ma charge setting, which gives 100ma discharge when doing the refresh cycle. I didn't think I should go up to 500ma charge rate.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Rdshores,

In that case they don't seem to be doing very well. Are they consistant from cell to cell?

I will have to check my data on other brands of AAA cells to see if any of the other brands do any better.

Tom


----------



## rdshores

TESTED WITH LA-CROSSE BC-900

POWERIZER 750MAH AAA
CELL A 517MAH CHARGED:500MA REFRESH CYCLE
CELL B 541MAH CHARGED:500MA REFRESH CYCLE
CELL C 582MAH CHARGED:500MA REFRESH CYCLE
CELL D 570MAH CHARGED:500MA REFRESH CYCLE

TITANIUM 750MAH AAA
CELL A 447 MAH CHARGED:500MA REFRESH CYCLE
CELL B 580 MAH CHARGED:500MA REFRESH CYCLE
CELL C 412 MAH CHARGED:500MA REFRESH CYCLE
CELL D 569 MAH CHARGED:500MA REFRESH CYCLE

NEXCELL 800MAH AAA 
CELL A 737 MAH CHARGED:500MA REFRESH CYCLE
CELL B 772 MAH CHARGED:500MA REFRESH CYCLE
CELL C 788 MAH CHARGED:500MA REFRESH CYCLE
CELL D 790 MAH CHARGED:500MA REFRESH CYCLE

LA CROSSE 700MAH AAA
CELL A 657 MAH CHARGED:500MA REFRESH CYCLE
CELL B 656 MAH CHARGED:500MA REFRESH CYCLE
CELL C 683 MAH CHARGED:500MA REFRESH CYCLE
CELL D 693 MAH CHARGED:500MA REFRESH CYCLE


----------



## tedSmith123

Could these by Industrial Sanyo Cells ??

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=43447&item=7529062394&rd=1


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Ted,

Welcome to CPF.

They sure look like them, but there are some very good copies out there. While they may look like Sanyo's, the question is do they perform like Sanyo's? Perhaps you could send an email to the seller to find out more information.

If you need the cells for a critical application, I would get them from an authorized dealer to be sure of their performance. If you just need them for fooling around, try them out and report back to us.

Tom


----------



## tedSmith123

Thanks for that SilverFox, seller is from HK so very likely they are just copies. I suppose if they are real Sanyo, he would have made it clear. Anyway, I will shoot them a mail to confirm.


----------



## Bullzeyebill

tedSmith123, delete your second paragraph, and open a new thread in this forum, asking the same question. Go to POST in the header at the top of this forum, and open your thread.

Bill


----------



## greenlight

Cheers to SilverFox for compressing his graphs to loadable size! I'm not sure what to do with all the data, but at least I can read it now.


----------



## pcmike

Tom,

Per KevinL's recommendation I would like to check with you regarding Titanium 2600 mAh cells. Would they be considered 'high drain' and 'high current?' Are they capable of a 5A draw? Thanks!


----------



## SilverFox

Hello PCMike,

They are just out and I have not tested them yet. I don't know.

Tom


----------



## pcmike

Tom,

This is my first foray into rechargeables and I'm trying to select some good high current, high drain batteries for flashlight use (they need to be able to do 5A really well) and for general home use (in a GPS, in a Canon 420EX flash, etc). After looking over the different graphs I believe a good choice would be the Sanyo 2500mAh industrial cells; however I may be reading the graphs wrong, who knows. Would you concur? Are these a good choice for high current, high drain, high capacity cells? Also, by any chance do you or anyone else know if three of these fit fine in the Elektrolumens 3AAtoD holders? Thanks again!


----------



## SilverFox

Hello PCMike,

At 5 amps the top performers were (in no particular order):

Titanium 2400
Sanyo 2500 HR 3U
Jetcell 2400
AccuPower 2600
Energizer 2500
and the Ansmann 2300 were a bit behind, but strong.

Unfortunately I did not measure how the cells fit into the various adaptors.

Tom


----------



## pcmike

Would it be wrong to assume that the Titanium 2600s would perform at least on bar with the 2400s in terms of 5A? Trying to decide on what to purchase tomorrow. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Thanks Tom!


----------



## SilverFox

Hello PCMike,

When you assume, you make an *** out of u and me... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nana.gif 

I really don't know. Based on past performance, I would expect them to be quite good. 5 amps is just under 2C for those cells, and most cells can do 2C without problems. They may be a little "fatter" which may make it difficult to fit into your adaptor.

Tom


----------



## pcmike

What do you mean by 2C? Sorry for my ignorance.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello PCMike,

C refers to the battery capacity. Multiples of C refer to multiples of the battery capacity.

For example:

A cell may be rated 2600 mAh. If I put a 1C load on it, it would be 2.6 amps. A 2C load would be 5.2 amps, and so on.

Tom


----------



## pcmike

Ahh, very good. I gotcha. Thanks for the explaination. I guess the question to answer is has anyone put the Titanium 2600s into a EL 3AAtoD adapter. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


----------



## paulr

For 5 amps I'd go with a high current cell like CPF 1650. Yes, capacity is lower. High current cells construction means lower capacity, there's no way around it. But those cells can even do 20 amps.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Paul,

Keep in mind that CBP1650's have to be warm to do 20 amps.

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

Update:

I have added the test results from the X1 cells. Thanks Rick88. He actually sent them to me some time ago and I am finally able to get the information up. 

I don't know who makes them, but they seem to do pretty good.

Tom


----------



## Sway

pcmike 

The 2500 Sanyo Ind. cells will fit in the EL 3toD holder with no problem.

Later
Kelly


----------



## lamperich

[ QUOTE ]
*koala said:*
Just in case the cells Tom tested does not appeal to you and you want to go for a cheapo, do think twice...

Fortunately, they are not mine /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif.








[/ QUOTE ]

i can beat this /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif






This Cells doesn´t have a Voltage after 6 Month of storage 
0,000V /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

I think Overcharging raise self discharge EXTREMLY /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif


@ SilverFox i would like to see Liionen vs NiMH Voltage Test after 40 Days of storage @ 0,5C and maybe 1C


----------



## pcmike

So I guess I should either get Sanyo Industrial 2500 AA cells or Titanium 2600 cells. It's been confirmed the Sanyos will fit in the EL 3AAtoD holders, I just can't seem to find a place to buy them for the life on me.

Tom, when I look at your graphs in regards to the Titanium 2400s and then the Sanyo Industrial 2500s, the Sanyos seem to kick that crap out of the Titaniums. Am I reading these two graphs properly?

Titanium 2400: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/SilverFoxCPF/TitaniumAA2400atVariousRates.gif
Sanyo 2500: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v482/SilverFoxCPF/SanyoIndAA2500atVariousRates.gif

These Sanyo cells appear to be the best cells at 5A out of all the graphs I've seen. Please reassure me that I'm not reading these wrong. Thanks again, appreciate it. It's all in the learning.. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/happy14.gif

Also, where can I buy these Sanyo Industrial 2500 cells? I don't seem them on battery station, amondotech, etc. What is the code for them (e.g. HR-3U?)? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif


----------



## paulr

Batterystation has the Sanyo 2500's (HR-3U) but at 5 amps you might consider CBP 1650's. It's sort of marginal.


----------



## pcmike

Paul, well I'd really like the extra capacity of the 2400-2600mAh cells. Is this going to be an issue with say Sanyo Industrial cells or the Titanium 2600mAh cells (the 4A draw)? I need to get a straight answer on this particular question because I don't want to buy the wrong cells and have things not work.

I need an answer to the following: WILL Sanyo HR-3U 2500mAh cells work fine at 4A draw? WILL Titanium 2600mAh cells work fine at 4A draw? WILL Titanium 2400mAh cells work fine at 4A?

CBP1650mAh cells just not provide enough capacity for my use, sorry. Thanks for the answers guys, I'll be ordering these cells tomorrow hopefully... just need some answers to the above. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


----------



## rick88

Thanks for testing the X1 cells! These are just some generic cells I picked up at Fry's electronics - every once in a while they're on sale for something like $8.99 for 4AA + 4AAA with 2 plastic battery holders. One time I've seen them going at 20AA for $20. Just wanted to see how they compare.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello PCMike,

At high current draws, it is my opinion that the first thing to look for is voltage retention. Using this criteria, at 5 amps, the Titanium 2400 cells "kick the crap" out of the Sanyo cells.

The Sanyo cells will last longer, but run at a lower voltage (a bit dimmer).

Tom


----------



## pcmike

Thank you Tom once again for your words of wisdom.


----------



## pcmike

Alright I did some more number crunching taking into account the voltage retention of the two cells and the three different bulbs I bought. Since the high drain bulbs are @6V (reportedly) and the 1.1A bulb is at 7.2V it looks like I would benefit more from the Sanyo cells. Not by much in terms of runtime on the high drain bulb, but by a modest amount on the 1.1A bulb. Also I'd benefit in the wallet (Sanyo's are about $.30 cheaper per cell). Also it has been reported here that the Sanyo 2500s work in the EL adapters.

With all the data I've gathered I'm going to go ahead and order 20 Sanyo cells. I just pray they fit the adapters that *I* am sent by EL.

Thanks SilverFox for all the raw data and thanks others for all the contributing information. I really appreciate it.


----------



## paulr

You should use a Fivemega adapter. Those EL adapters filled a need when they were introduced, but there's better solutions available now.


----------



## pcmike

I called up EL and spoke to I believe Wayne. He said he'd have no problem cancelling, but that if I just wanted to give the holders a try and if it didn't work send them back First Class that would be perfectly acceptable. Considering the EL holders are $3.50/each and I ordered 7 of them ($30 shipped) I think I'll at least give them a shot. We're talking $30 shipped versus AT LEAST $68 for two FM adapters. I've already spent enough money in two days since visiting CPF. I think I'll at least try the EL holders. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Thanks for your input though, I will definitely keep it in mind when I recieve the EL adapters and can give them a test or see if I like the build. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif


----------



## pcmike

Apparently BatteryStation is out of the Dark Green wrapper Sanyo 2500s. They said they have the same battery in the consumer wrapper. Anyone know if these cells are going to perform just as well as the dark green ones? I'd like to know soon so I can cancel if they won't! Thanks.

Actually, don't worry about it. I trust Kevin. He's assured me they are the same battery just with the fancy wrapper. I should really stop worrying so much! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif


----------



## XenonM3

Too much battery info for me /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Can anyone tell me what is the best and safest Nimhi rechargeable battery that won't insta flash 1185 bulb?
I am planning to use Fivemega's 9AA-D holder for my mag85.

Thanks


----------



## DreamScape

XenonM3, Welcome to CPF.
The answers are within this thread.
Get reading, it's the only way to learn and understand /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Check out this other thread also Mag85 vs MagCharger60  
Basically the CBP 1650, Sanyo 2500 & Titanium 2400 are good to go. You have to watch the voltage on these.
Let the pack rest after charging.
I have managed fine with the pack at a non load voltage of 12.7V
Wilkey advises 12.47V I say go with the Wilkey the HotWire Guru (Fair to say Wilkey?)
You could also play it safe and run the Pack with only 8xAA's with a dummy.

Hope this helps /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif


----------



## pcmike

[ QUOTE ]
*DreamScape said:*
XenonM3, Welcome to CPF.
The answers are within this thread.
Get reading, it's the only way to learn and understand /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Check out this other thread also Mag85 vs MagCharger60  
Basically the CBP 1650, Sanyo 2500 & Titanium 2400 are good to go. You have to watch the voltage on these.
Let the pack rest after charging.
I have managed fine with the pack at a non load voltage of 12.7V
Wilkey advises 12.47V I say go with the Wilkey the HotWire Guru (Fair to say Wilkey?)
You could also play it safe and run the Pack with only 8xAA's with a dummy.

Hope this helps /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif 

[/ QUOTE ]

This was another reason I went with the ROP. No need to wait for the cell voltage to drop off before powering up the light! I can't be happier! We'll just have to see what kind of life I get out of the bulbs! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif


----------



## mpf

pcmike said:


> ...
> With all the data I've gathered I'm going to go ahead and order 20 Sanyo cells. I just pray they fit the adapters that *I* am sent by EL. ...



here is cross posting from Electrolumen forum V2-3 to D
[/ QUOTE ]

They fit extremely tight. Not a good choice battery for this holder, I'm afraid. You might need to go back to a 2,200 or 2,100mA to fit better.

Wayne[/QUOTE]

Even the Energizer 2500mA nimh are a tight fit and they are supposed to be standard size. Here is what you do:-
Take a rat tail file and remove the ridge at the top of the holder where the three batteries touch the plastice.
Look into the holder and locate the single spring at the bottom. Notice the plastic tab on the inside.
Take a steak knife and cut into the holder from the outside at this point (where the base is welded on). Keep cutting until you can break the tab off and remove it.

Now your batteries should slide easily up and down against the sping tabs.

p.s. Keep some spare holders as they are prone to break the clips at the top if you drop them loaded. If you don't have a spare just sticky tape the lid on (in the correct location) and rely on you torch battery holder to keep everthing in place.

matthew


----------



## mpf

> I think Overcharging raise self discharge EXTREMLY



I experienced destructive over charging using a 'fast charger' with dV cutoff. (the most common type of fast charger cut off)
This was charging 6AA 2500mAh cells in holders inside a modified 2D Mag.

You will get distructive overcharging if you
i) discharge your cells somewhat
ii) put on the 2A fast charger and charge them up until the charger goes into trickle charge mode, after detecting the dV drop in the batteries
iii) unplug the charger and move to another location and plug in again expecting to get trickle charge. But what actually happens is you get 2A charge and no dV drop because the batteries are already fully charged 

In a few minutes your batteries are too hot to handle and are swelling and leaking due to the build up of internal gass. In overcharge almost all the input power is dissipated as heat (about 18W in my case)

Solution:
A)
i)Throw out those batteries and buy new ones
ii) make a trivial trickle charger
iii) use the trickle charger to charge nearly fully charged battery packs.

OR
B) 
i)Throw out those batteries and buy new ones
ii) work out how to insert a temperature probe into the battery pack to detect the rise in temperature and shut down the charger
iii) Find or make a charger that will use the temperature probe

I choose A)
The trickle charger is a 12V AC power adapter, a 1A bridge recifier and 2 x 47ohm 1W resistors. This give about 90mA into 6AA in series.

A slightly more complex charger adds a transistor, resistor and led to indicate when the charger is passing current.
I can post a circuit if anyone is interested.

matthew

P.S. you can use a similar arragement for charging from a car lighter socket.


----------



## SilverFox

Update:

I have added the test results from the Titanium AA 2600 mAh cells. These cells are better than the 2400's.

For example, here is a direct comparison between the 2600 and the 2400 cells when tested at 3 amps.







I believe I will be using these in my Mag85. 

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

Update:

Ian Lewis of www.component-shop.co.uk asked me if I had access to the Vapextech NiMh cells. I told him that I had never heard of them.

A little while later, some Vapextech AA 2500 cells arrive. Thanks Ian.

Very impressive results. They are advertised to perform to 7.5 amps. I tested at 5 amps without problems and they fell on their face at 10 amps. This leads me to believe they probably work as advertised. 

If you run across these cell in the store, don't be afraid to try them out.

Tom


----------



## Codeman

Thanks for the Titanium 2600 info, Tom! I''ve been thinking of getting some for a pair of WA-1111 lights as well as a Mag85. Has anyone seen my money?


----------



## Timson

I'm using the Vapextech 2500 cells in my Mag85 and can testify to their performance. :rock: 

Tight fit in FM's 9AAto3D holders but they do fit.

Tim


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Tim,

I was going to ask you where you found the Vapextech cells, then I realized that you are "across the pond."  

Tom


----------



## Timson

Tom,

Yeah....I'm in the UK..........Spotted the VAPEXTECH cells on e-bay(UK) and at the price - had to try some...Wasn't disappointed.  

It's a nice change for us Brits to be able to get hold of such good quality cells at good prices.
It's annoying that in order to satisfy my flashlight fetish that I have to order most of my bits n pieces from the US.
These cells were a welcome change from that.

Still.......If you're in the US you're probably better off getting 'Titanium' cells when you take into account shipping charges etc from the UK.

Tim.


----------



## bcwang

Hi Tom,

I think the results for the Quest 2300 you have are from bad cells. I've got the Quest 2300 cells and using the lacrosse charger test function, at a discharge rate of 500ma I get 2450-2480mah from my good cells. One of my cells only reached around 2000mah, so it must be bad. But to see you get only 1600mah or so seems way off, like they might have been heavily used, dropped, or maybe overdischarged before you got to test them.

Interestingly enough, my sanyo HR3U 2500mah cells can only manage to get 2430-2450mah from all 4 of them. Both sets have been cycled at least 10 times before, and both were only recently put into service.


----------



## LuxLuthor

Very interesting thread, and a lot of information. I just got two of FiveMega's Mag85 1300 (3 D-Cells model) mods, each with 9 of the Lithium AW 17500 rechargeables. I have two categories of questions

1) Why do you seek the best NiMh to use in that mod, vs. rechargeable Lithiums?

2) I also have several Archos 80 GB MP3 players that I have been running with Powerex 2500mAh which I thought were the best based on camera battery shootouts, and a PC Photo top award. Now I'm not so sure, unless the Powerex 2300's you tested were mislabeled.

I know exactly how long these 2500's last when listening to music, and now I'm interested in trying some of the top rated batteries from your shootout. Which would you recommend I try for this MP3 player purpose? Would this Maha charger model do ok with your recommendation on low charge setting?


----------



## SilverFox

Hello LuxLuthor,

NiMh cells allow you to discharge at higher C rates than Li-Ion. In addition, the results of improper charging are less spectacular with the NiMh cells...

I would guess that your MP3 player draws less than 0.5 amps. Unfortunately, I do not have test results for low current draws. My best recommendation is to look at the Watt Hour values at the 0.5 amp tests and pick cells with the highest number of WH.

I believe most Maha chargers are "OK."

Tom


----------



## LuxLuthor

Yeah, my Archos must draw very little current because it will run for about 20-22 hours straight on four of my Powerex 2500 mAh AA batteries...but there is something confusing with your testing, because I have used some of these in my MP3 player before finding the PowerEx brand. 

For example Energizer 2300's would last about 12-13 hours, Duracell 2300's would last about 14-16 hours, and RadioShack 1800 mAh would last about 7-8 hours.

I got so frustrated with short battery life, that I started doing my own battery shootout just letting my MP3 player run out after a full charge of about 5 different types of NiMH AA batteries. Powerex was wayyyy longer than the best of any others I could find. I did not try the Titanium, but I cannot figure out why my observations are so different.

There are very few well controlled battery shootouts that I can find on the web, and even fewer that keep up to date with higher mAh ratings as you did. I'm not saying your results are inaccurate, just that I cannot correlate them with my MP3 player tests.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello LuxLuthor,

The Powerex 2300 cells that I tested were loaned to me by another person on CPF. They did not perform like 2300's and I was thinking they were mislabeled 1800's. 

Since I don't have any others to test, the test results will have to stand as is. If you think your cells are better and are willing to send them to me, I would be happy to test them and post the results.

Tom


----------



## paulr

FYI, I got a 4-pack of the "Soshine" AAA NiMH cells labelled 900 mAH. I put them on my Lacrosse BC900 on the discharge/test cycle (keep discharging and recharging til capacity stops increasing) and the measured capacity was 650 mAH, consistent across all 4 cells. Looks like one of those technological advances best described as changing the numbers on the label without changing the cell.

Any idea where to get some Sanyo HR-4U real 900 mAH AAA cells?


----------



## iNDiGLo

I figured the Energizer 2500's would be available almost anywhere...NOT!

I've searched at Walgreens, Wal-mart, and Target and could only find 1850mA rechargables. Anyone had any luck finding these any place but online?

iNDiGLo


----------



## Genes

They have the 2500's at my local WalMart. I have been buying them there for over a year now.


----------



## paulr

I've seen 2500's at Target and Kmart recently, they seem easy to find. Also Home Depot. Even my local all night supermarket has them, but they're $6.99 for two there, instead of $10/4.

Btw, I just got a 4-pack of Titanium "1000 mAH" AAA cells from Amondotech. Measured capacity per LC-900 test-discharge function (500 mA charge, 250 mA discharge, repeat til capacity doesn't increase) is consistently pretty close to 850 mAH for each cell. So the capacity is significantly overstated.


----------



## BVH

AmondoTech's Titanium 2600's seem to be better than great. This last batch I received today, have initially charged as follows

1 @ 2.76 ah
1 @ 2.87 ah
1 @ 2.94 ah
1 @ 3.06 ah
1 @ 3.09 ah
1 @ 3.10 ah
1 @ 3.15 ah
1 @ 3.23 ah

This was straight from the shrinkwrap using the LaCross BC 600 and terminated at the moment each channel changed to "Full". I did not do any discharging. Is this within the "norm" of the capacity of these cells? One of these charged at 25% over the rating.


----------



## paulr

You have to measure the capacity by discharging, not by charging. That's because you're less interested in how much energy you put in, as how much you can get OUT. The charge process is not 100% efficient, as you can tell because the cells get warm during charging. If you put 3.23AH into a cell that doesn't mean you can get it back out. Some of it went into heat.

Other people's tests have indicated the 2600's are quite good, with capacity slightly below 2.6AH. Just about all NiMH cells are over-spec'd these days so even coming close is a good thing.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Paul,

Keep in mind that when the battery manufacturers rate their cells, they do it based on a 5 hour discharge. When we use these cells at higher rates, some of the capacity is lost to heat.

The Titanium cells are very interesting. I consider them "raw" cells. Most cells will improve in capacity over the first 10 cycles, then pretty much level out. My experience with the Titanium cells is that it takes around 50 cycles to break them in.

However, with all of this said and trying to give the manufacturers the benefit of the doubt, I do agree that quite often the label is optimistic concerning the capacity of the cell.  

Tom


----------



## wptski

SilverFox said:


> Hello Paul,
> 
> Keep in mind that when the battery manufacturers rate their cells, they do it based on a 5 hour discharge. When we use these cells at higher rates, some of the capacity is lost to heat.
> 
> The Titanium cells are very interesting. I consider them "raw" cells. Most cells will improve in capacity over the first 10 cycles, then pretty much level out. My experience with the Titanium cells is that it takes around 50 cycles to break them in.
> 
> However, with all of this said and trying to give the manufacturers the benefit of the doubt, I do agree that quite often the label is optimistic concerning the capacity of the cell.
> 
> Tom


Tom:

I got some Titanium 2000mAh cells and after only five cycles show around 2100mAh on a LaCrosse in Test Mode. Gosh, 50 cycles, you must go through lots of cells!


----------



## paulr

The LaCrosse's test mode repeatedly cycles the cells until the capacity stops increasing. For cells I've tried in it, that's usually 5 or so cycles.


----------



## blr2005

SilverFox said:


> Hello Paul,
> 
> Keep in mind that when the battery manufacturers rate their cells, they do it based on a 5 hour discharge. When we use these cells at higher rates, some of the capacity is lost to heat.
> 
> The Titanium cells are very interesting. I consider them "raw" cells. Most cells will improve in capacity over the first 10 cycles, then pretty much level out. My experience with the Titanium cells is that it takes around 50 cycles to break them in.
> 
> However, with all of this said and trying to give the manufacturers the benefit of the doubt, I do agree that quite often the label is optimistic concerning the capacity of the cell.
> 
> Tom


I found the same thing. Usually, good cell manufacurers (mean Sanyo and Panasonic) form their cells before shipping them to stores. Such cells will come into optimal capacity in only 3-5 deep cycles. Others may need 10 times more cycling untill they level off. 
The nameplate capacity is almost always too optimistic especially after the capacity war started. Actually the only cells I have seen that reach and sometimes exceed their nameplate capacity when discharged at C/5 is the Sanyo 1600 mAh cell. I have no way of proving this, but I think later Sanyo introduced the exact same cells as 1700 mAh. I have four each and they all measure around 1650 mAh when discharged at C/5.


----------



## vontech

SilverFox said:


> The Titanium cells are very interesting. I consider them "raw" cells. Most cells will improve in capacity over the first 10 cycles, then pretty much level out. My experience with the Titanium cells is that it takes around 50 cycles to break them in.



How do you produce "50 cycles" to test these cells, Tom? And just how LONG does each cycle take?  I'd be interested in knowing what your test rig/process is ...

You must spend most of your life and all of your electrical sockets charging/discharging batteries!

And as always, you're a fountain of wisdom on these topics!

Thanks for all the hard work!

Tom


----------



## wptski

paulr said:


> The LaCrosse's test mode repeatedly cycles the cells until the capacity stops increasing. For cells I've tried in it, that's usually 5 or so cycles.


paulr:

You mean the Refresh Mode not the Test Mode, correct?


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Tom,

 

I have almost as many chargers as I have flashlights... Many of them have discharge capability, so I just cycle the cells with them.

My Schulze charger does an automatic 3 cycle charge/discharge that is most useful. Using the appropriate adapter I have the capability of doing up to 30 cells at a time.

Charging at 1C and discharging at 1 amp will involve about 1.5 hours for the charge side and about 2.5 hours for the discharge side (2500 mAh cells), so you end up with about 4 hours per cycle.

I happen to have an interest in the Titanium cells because I, and others, have noticed that they hold their voltage very well under load. As a result of this, they have been recommended for various applications. I continue to test and cycle them because I want to know of any "issues" that arise so I can warn those using those cells.

Tom


----------



## paulr

Yeah, refresh mode, I guess. Thanks.


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe

Geez! I have so many batteries now that I really need a BC900 to figure out which ones are good! Can't be ordering one now though...


----------



## rdshores

*I got the following results from some TITANIUM AAA 1000MAH batteries.....*​ 
*CELL A 932MAH-TESTED WITH BC-900 700MA TEST CYCLE* 
*CELL B 964MAH -TESTED WITH BC-900 700MA TEST CYCLE* 
*CELL C 933MAH -TESTED WITH BC-900 700MA TEST CYCLE* 
*CELL D 915MAH -TESTED WITH BC-900 700MA TEST CYCLE*


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe

I don't know what rate the C Crane discharges at. But it took longer than I thought it would to run down some 850mAh AAA Energizers, based on what some poor AAs showed.


----------



## Nell

I am using Titanium 2400 in my cameras and they are the best things out there. It reduces lag time between frames and speeds up the cycle between flash and shutter response. In fact, I just ordered a set of 2600 to try out.

My question is how do the AAA Titanium 1000 compare with the new Sanyos? 
I have a set of the Titanium AAA and they seem to be good cells, but are the sanyos over the top?


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Nell,

I just put the Titanium AAA 1000 mAh graph up in the first post. They did pretty good. They may not provide 1000 mAh of capacity, but they sure do hold voltage under higher loads.

Tom


----------



## tankahn

PlayboyJoeShmoe said:


> Geez! I have so many batteries now that I really need a BC900 to figure out which ones are good! Can't be ordering one now though...



I didn't find the BC900 that useful so there is virtue in waiting for a better charger to come into market. There are posts on its limitation. For a 'bit' more, I would use the Triton with more controls. If I am impatient, I would put in above 1C charge/discharge cycles, stimulating an hi-drain, quick charge environment and mark out the weaker ones for use on low-drain gadgets and stuff. 

Besides being a flashaholic, I am now becoming a chargaholic. Helping friends revived their dead batteries and diagnosing charger failures. There are so many around.


----------



## minimig

Hello tankahn,

Do you do the >1C charge/discharge cycle (with the Triton) on individual cells or do you do them in a group?

Thanks.


----------



## TinderBox (UK)

hello silverfox

I just bought some VAPEXTECH 2500 mah batteries.

after charging and discharging them in my "CHARGE MANAGER 2010"

and then discharging them at 0.8 amp.

three cell give me over 2300 mah but the fourth is just under 2000 mah.

my question is when you test sets of batteries is it normal to find cells like this.

regards.


----------



## bcwang

TinderBox (UK) said:


> hello silverfox
> 
> I just bought some VAPEXTECH 2500 mah batteries.
> 
> after charging and discharging them in my "CHARGE MANAGER 2010"
> 
> and then discharging them at 0.8 amp.
> 
> three cell give me over 2300 mah but the fourth is just under 2000 mah.
> 
> my question is when you test sets of batteries is it normal to find cells like this.
> 
> regards.



I had a similar experience with some chinese made cells I purchased (not to be named). 1st pack 2000mah, 3 were close to but below spec, the 4th was much lower. 2nd pack 2300mah, 3 were above spec, one was below. I contacted the company to send me two replacements for those two dud cells, they sent out two. One exceeded spec (2300mah one), the other was far below (2000mah, measured like 1600mah). So out of 10 batteries, 3 were way below capacity. I've never had this problem with any of my HR stamped japanese cells out of the 32 I've put into service so far. So there do seem to be quality control differences from different manufacturers.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello TinderBox,

The Vapextech cells that I tested were all very uniform.

You might try a couple of charge/discharge cycles to see if the capacity comes up.

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

Update:

I have been putting some Powerex cells through extensive testing. The first Powerex cells I tested did not do very well. William at Maha sent me some 2500's to check out. Thank you William.

These cells are very good performers.

The first post had been updated.

Tom


----------



## LEDcandle

:goodjob:

Seems the Powerex perform as well as the Sanyo 2500s. You commented that at 10 amps, the Powerx fall flat on their face. But it looks quite good comparatively? Beats the Vapaxtech and even Titanium 2600s. And doesn't heat up even!


----------



## davidefromitaly

silverfox please can you measure the diameter of the AA cells you test? will be very usefull for who haven't a bored maglite. thanks


----------



## BlackDecker

A page back in this thread there were inquiries on where to find Eveready 2500mah AA's. Here's what I found locally:

Sam's Club has a nice price on a bundle... you can buy 8 - 2500mah AA's and 4 - 850mah AAA's for $20. They come in a single blister pack.


----------



## TinderBox (UK)

I got some VAPEXTECH 2500mah AA cells 3 packs of four.

I have run 2 packs through my CHARGER MANAGER 2010 on the alive setting and the results have been ranging between 2100-2250.

i`m not to impressed.

are their two different styles of cell labeling of vapextech cells, some are mostely orange with an silver logo in the middle, and some are silver and white.

regards.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello TinderBox,

It is good to know that the Vapextech cells are holding their consistency...

Your results seem very similar to those that I posted. 

Tom


----------



## dta116

Silverfox; 

I was just reading thru your Shoot Out, and I am new to your forums.

I cannot believe no one has mentioned using the Nexcell from Thomas-Dist.
I have been using these to power my Headphone amp for years, (Used to build amps...). They have performed very well for me and usually come in the higher mah. They were very highly rated on the Headphone amd forums a couple of years ago.

I am still using these same ones I bought 3 years ago, and they seem to still be performing well. I just started cycleing them in some of my "Lites" and they seem fine there also. 

You might want to include the tests in you comparison. I have a few I can send you if you do not have a source.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Dta116,

Welcome to CPF.

I just sent you a PM (Private Message). If you want to send me some Nexcell cells to check out, I would be happy to do so and return them to you.

Tom


----------



## 2wheels4me

Thomas Distributing now has Sanyo 2700 mah AAs in stock! New king-o-the-hill???:rock:

http://www.thomas-distributing.com/sanyo-2700-aa-rechargeable-batteries.htm#top


----------



## greenLED

Tom, may I kindly request that you split the first graph in two? One for the top performers and the second for the lower end? It's become so cluttered with all the cells you've tested, it's really hard to sort out all those lines and follow the individual curves.
:thanks: For your hard work!


----------



## wptski

2wheels4me said:


> Thomas Distributing now has Sanyo 2700 mah AAs in stock! New king-o-the-hill???:rock:
> 
> http://www.thomas-distributing.com/sanyo-2700-aa-rechargeable-batteries.htm#top


They've had them for weeks.


----------



## sygyzy

greenLED said:


> Tom, may I kindly request that you split the first graph in two? One for the top performers and the second for the lower end? It's become so cluttered with all the cells you've tested, it's really hard to sort out all those lines and follow the individual curves.
> :thanks: For your hard work!



I agree. In the charger thread, you pointed to your graphs as a result summary, but in that thread as well as this, there is just too much clutter to make out anything. Plus if I am looking at a chart for battery 2 then want to compare it to battery 10, I have to memorize the results, scroll 3 pages down and do an overlay in my mind. Not very easy to do.


----------



## InfidelCastro

wptski said:


> They've had them for weeks.




Would those charge to full capacity in my Energizer charger that came with my 2500's last fall?


----------



## Handlobraesing

TinderBox (UK) said:


> I got some VAPEXTECH 2500mah AA cells 3 packs of four.
> 
> I have run 2 packs through my CHARGER MANAGER 2010 on the alive setting and the results have been ranging between 2100-2250.
> 
> i`m not to impressed.
> 
> are their two different styles of cell labeling of vapextech cells, some are mostely orange with an silver logo in the middle, and some are silver and white.
> 
> regards.



I got a Duracell 30 minute charger and it came with four Duracell badged 2.05Ah AAs Made in Singapore.

I gave these cells a few cycles and I'm getting an average of 1.65Ah @ 0.35A discharge to 0.95v. This is about what I get from 1.85Ah rated Sanyo AAs I had since 2002 ish. The BC-900 is highly useful in determining the real capacity of batteries you buy. 

What this says is that if you buy 2.7Ah generic batteries, you might actually be getting less out of them than 2.5Ah Sanyo OEM batteries.


----------



## TinderBox (UK)

I have just bought some 4x generic 2700mah cell for £6.39.

4 x SANYO 2700mah cell in the UK cost about £15.00, quite a difference.

The first and second time I charged the unbranded cells in my CHARGER MANAGER 2010, I am only getting around 2000mah.

So I decided to slow charge them, for 20H-15M at 160ma, then i discharged them in my charge manager at approx 850mah, And I got about 2400mah out of them.

I am now slow charging them again, and will let you know what I get this time.

I am sure sombody said that SANYO cells are charged and discharged a few times before they leave the factory.

regards.


----------



## wptski

TinderBox (UK) said:


> I have just bought some 4x generic 2700mah cell for £6.39.
> 
> 4 x SANYO 2700mah cell in the UK cost about £15.00, quite a difference.
> 
> The first and second time I charged the unbranded cells in my CHARGER MANAGER 2010, I am only getting around 2000mah.
> 
> So I decided to slow charge them, for 20H-15M at 160ma, then i discharged them in my charge manager at approx 850mah, And I got about 2400mah out of them.
> 
> I am now slow charging them again, and will let you know what I get this time.
> 
> I am sure sombody said that SANYO cells are charged and discharged a few times before they leave the factory.
> 
> regards.


It isn't a bad idea to do a C/10 forming charge on new consumer cells, more so on cells greater than 2Ah and discharge them first if you have the means to do so.


----------



## wptski

InfidelCastro said:


> Would those charge to full capacity in my Energizer charger that came with my 2500's last fall?


If it's a timed charge, leave them a bit longer. A smart charger that terminates should work but it isn't a bad idea to calculate the time needed just incase the termination point is missed. The first charge is the most critical.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello GreenLED,

I have fixed the 1.0 amp comparison chart. It is now very easy to interpret...  

Tom


----------



## john2551

Tom,

When will we see the Accupower 2900, Sanyo 2700 & Energizer 2650 added to the 1.0 amp chart?

Regards,

John


----------



## SilverFox

Hello John,

I don't have those batteries, and have no plans on purchasing them for my use. So, I guess someone will have to send me some for testing.

I will return them after testing.

Tom


----------



## Shaocaholica

Hey tom, I think I'll take up your offer for testing the Accupowers unless someone else has.

Also, has anyone tested the 12Ah CTA D cells to see if they live up to spec? At least compared to other lower rated cells.


----------



## SilverFox

Update:

I just added the results from the Sanyo Eneloop testing.

Tom


----------



## N162E

john2551 said:


> Tom,
> 
> When will we see the Accupower 2900, Sanyo 2700 & Energizer 2650 added to the 1.0 amp chart?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> John


I just ordered some of the Accupower 2900s. I have a CBA and will post some "Unofficial" test results when I get them.


----------



## 2wheels4me

Very anxious to see results! The Sanyo 2700's were very well received by testers/users at the photo-centric dpreview.com forums, especially after several charge cycles.


----------



## Shaocaholica

Tom, did you get those batteries yet?


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe

On a Walmart Junket for some needed stuff I picked up an 8 pack of Duracell "HR" 2500 AAs. I don't have a good testing regiment, but should be able to compare them to my Energizer HR 2500s well enough.

4 of them are cycling in my C Crane Quik Charger as I type this.


----------



## rdh226

SilverFox said:


> Hello John,
> 
> 
> john2551 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Tom,
> When will we see the Accupower 2900, Sanyo 2700 & Energizer 2650 added to the 1.0 amp chart?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't have those batteries, and have no plans on purchasing them for my use. So, I guess someone will have to send me some for testing.
Click to expand...

Based on the generally good results the Sanyo 2500s gathered in your results,
I am about to spring for some Sanyo 2700s for my soon-to-be-delivered (_drool_)
FiveMega Stylish ROP.

I'll order some extra and send them to you for your tender and loving abuse.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Rdh,

You don't have to send me any. Testing is underway on the Sanyo 2700 and AccuPower 2900 cells.

Tom


----------



## koala

Hi Tom,

Not sure if this has been mention before.

Are you using the CBA II to test the cells? If so does it read the internal resistance of the cell? I am very curious about the internal resistance of the new Sanyo Eneloop compared to the normal NiMh.

Vince.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Vince,

The Eneloop cells seem to have higher internal resistance...

Eneloop 2000 - 0.0400
Powerex 2500 - 0.0375
Titanium 2400 - 0.0325
CBP 1650 at room temperature - 0.0350
CBP 1650 hot - 0.0220

Tom


----------



## HayJab

Sanyo 2700 AAs work great for me. They are clearly the best I've seen. 

HayJab so states...


----------



## big beam

Just a noob question?If the eneloop have such high resistance how come there voltage is so high under load?


----------



## N162E

N162E said:


> I just ordered some of the Accupower 2900s. I have a CBA and will post some "Unofficial" test results when I get them.


Testing 4 AA Accupower 2900 mah cells. After conditioning for four cycles I ran 3 discharge tests on CBA all 3 results fell between 2330 and 2360 ma. These four and my other six unopened packages (16 cells total) will be going back to Thomas. The conditioning cycles and tests were discharged at 1/2 amp. :thumbsdow


----------



## TinderBox (UK)

I got some re-branded 2700 and the highest I got was 2400mah

regards.


----------



## SilverFox

Update:

LEDcandle sent me some Supreme Power 2300 mAh cells to check out. Thanks.

The data is in the first post.

Keep in mind that these cells have a flat top similar to the CBP 1650 cells.

Tom


----------



## David_Campen

> The Eneloop cells seem to have higher internal resistance...
> 
> Eneloop 2000 - 0.0400
> Powerex 2500 - 0.0375
> Titanium 2400 - 0.0325
> CBP 1650 at room temperature - 0.0350
> CBP 1650 hot - 0.0220


How do you determine internal resistance?


----------



## koala

Tom,

Is this data from 1 cell or average from a group of cells?

The Titanium 2400 looks pretty good and the Eneloop internal resistance is higher as expected. Though the difference is small I am wondering if there's any impact on performance. 

If I am not wrong there's a difference of 7.5 mili ohm? Which means the Eneloop is 23% higher in internal resistance compared to the Titanium.



SilverFox said:


> Hello Vince,
> 
> The Eneloop cells seem to have higher internal resistance...
> 
> Eneloop 2000 - 0.0400
> Powerex 2500 - 0.0375
> Titanium 2400 - 0.0325
> CBP 1650 at room temperature - 0.0350
> CBP 1650 hot - 0.0220
> 
> Tom


----------



## SilverFox

Hello David,

A batteries voltage will drop with increased load. If you measure the change in voltage and divide it by the change in load, you come up with the internal resistance of the battery.

Please note that the internal resistance varies throughout the discharge cycle, with temperature, and increases over charge/discharge cycles.

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Vince,

The values were an average of 4 cells and taken 10 seconds into the test.

The Eneloop cells seem to perform well, so it is my guess that they heat up during the first part of the discharge to reduce the internal resistance of the cell.

Tom


----------



## David_Campen

> If you measure the change in voltage and divide it by the change in load, you come up with the internal resistance of the battery.


Yes, V=IR, I understand that, what I was wondering were the specific conditions e.g. the specific current values at which the 2 voltages were measured and at what point during the discharge of the cell. I would expect the "internal resistance" values to vary according to the specific conditions of the measurements.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello David,

As I mentioned to Vince, the voltage was taken 10 seconds into the test. The currents were 1 and 5 amps, with the exception of the CBP 1650 hot, which was taken at 1 and 15 amps.

Tom


----------



## randyo

SilverFox

Do you have a few of the Eneloop batteries charged up and "set aside" for long term testing, i.e. 2 months, 6 months, 1 year, etc.? If so, I'm going to STOP doing my little tests and just refer to your results periodically. I only have 4 of them, and I'd rather be "using" them than testing them.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Randyo,

I have some long term tests underway, but if you want to add another data point, it is most welcome.

On the other hand, I have 32 cells so I can play and test at the same time... 

Tom


----------



## randyo

You're doing fine, so I'm gonna terminate testing and just enjoy ownership. Do you have or have you seen a source for the AAA Eneloops?


----------



## Shaocaholica

Tom, how are the tests coming for the Sanyo 2700s?


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Randyo,

The AAA Eneloop cells only seem to be available in Japan.

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Shaocaholica,

The testing is moving along nicely. The Sanyo 2700 cells seem to be strong performers...



Tom


----------



## dekelsey61

Hi Tom, Other than the Lacrosse BC-900 charger is there any other affordable device to measure NIHM battery capacity(Mah)? Thank you for your help.

Dan


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Dan,

Many of us are using the West Mountain Radio CBA II. It runs around $100 and is an add on for your computer. Others utilize a flashlight that they know the current draw on and a stopwatch.

Tom


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe

My Duracell 2500 HR cells are holding up to my GPSr fine. 8-10 hours no problems yet.

My quirky C Crane Quik Charger has been fine for 12 or more cycles since it last acted up.

Life is good.


----------



## bcwang

Thomas-distributing lists PowerEX 2700mah batteries now.


----------



## TinderBox (UK)

hello tom

what is the highest "AAA 1000mah" battery that you have tested.

most i have seen only rate between 800-900mah at 500mah load.

thankyou.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello TinderBox,

I have not tested a lot of the AAA cells, but my results seem similar to yours. 

Tom


----------



## Shaocaholica

SilverFox said:


> Hello Shaocaholica,
> 
> The testing is moving along nicely. The Sanyo 2700 cells seem to be strong performers...
> 
> 
> 
> Tom


----------



## 2wheels4me

Can't wait to hear about the new high-capacity 2700 mah Sanyos, 2900 Accupowers, and (hopefully) 2700 Powerex AAs!


----------



## SilverFox

Update:

The data for the AccuPower 2900 and Sanyo 2700 cells has been added to the first post.

The Sanyo cells came out a bit better than the AccuPower cells.

Tom


----------



## BentHeadTX

Thanks for the Sanyo 2700mAH charts
My next project will pull between 1.1 and 1.25 amps from the 8AA pack so I will go with the 2700's for 2+ hours of runtime on high. :thumbsup: Since the Sanyos can handle 2 amps and still hold over 2.5AH, they are the ones to get. Thanks again!


----------



## Shaocaholica

Yay! Thanks Tom! Looks like Im buying Sanyo 2700s.


----------



## nocturnal

Thank you for the charts. 

BentHead, if your project is a mod involving battery holders/adapters, you might want to check that the Sanyo 2700s would physically fit before buying them for that purpose.  They are the largest in diameter of any AA cells I've ever gotten. Mine are about 14.3 mm, and they only barely fit into certain devices/battery containers. No way you'd get them into a Minim*g (to give an example), probably not even with a hammer.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Nocturnal,

Interesting...

I have no problems inserting the Sanyo 2500's or the 2700's in either a Mini Mag 2 AA or FiveMega's 9 to 3 D holders.

Tom


----------



## nocturnal

Hello Tom,

Just corrected a typo in my previous post - I meant 14.3 mm in diameter, not 15.3 - sorry. 
Anyway, my Sanyo 2700s (made in Japan, bought in Germany in March) don't even move past the tail threads of my Minim*g. While this light may have a particularly tight battery case (most NiMH barely fit in there), the Sanyos are considerably larger than anything else I've ever tried to use in it. They do fit nicely in my Peak Pacific, though. 

* Edit: *Just measured my Sanyo 2700 HR-3U cells with a caliper. Two of them are 14.3 mm in diameter, the other two are 14.4 mm. :huh: For comparison, some older Panasonics that fit nicely in every AA device I have are 14.0 mm.

All my Sanyos have a punched code "06 01 MX" (pretty difficult to read; I guess that means they were manufactured in January 2006). Maybe your's are from a different batch?


----------



## BentHeadTX

nocturnal said:


> BentHead, if your project is a mod involving battery holders/adapters, you might want to check that the Sanyo 2700s would physically fit before buying them for that purpose.  They are the largest in diameter of any AA cells I've ever gotten. Mine are about 14.3 mm, and they only barely fit into certain devices/battery containers. No way you'd get them into a Minim*g (to give an example), probably not even with a hammer.



Thanks for the heads-up nocturnal,
I am going to use them for an 8AA to 2D adapter in a bored Mag so they should fit (emphesis on should) Since I won't be needing them until August at the earliest, someone should post if they fit in the bored Mag. How much larger are the 2700s over the 2500s? I've tried 8 Powerex 2500 batteries in the 8AA adapter and they fit fine without any tightness, hopefully the 2700's make it also. 
There is always some spurious detail with mods to trip you up with mods.


----------



## 2wheels4me

BHT: I measured 2 of my Powerex 2500s; they come out to 14.2, maybe 14.3 mm, depending on how the battery is placed in the calipers. They are not _*exactly*_ round. But it sounds like overall they are about a tenth of a mm smaller than the Sanyos, as measured by Nocturnal. So far, the Powerexes fit fine in all of our flashlights and devices. I retried the Powerex in an L1P; it has room to spare. A tenth of a mm isn't much, but I guess it would cause problems if Powerexes are already tight. The industry standard maximum size is 14.5 mm, as posted by Energizer in their spec sheets.


----------



## Rommul

I bought 12 powerex 2500's for a light I am building for a friend.

They fit a minimag fine and four of them fit side by side down the barrel of a red 2D mag but won't fit down the barrel of a black 2D I have.


----------



## big beam

Hi Tom
I was just wondering if you are going to run tests on the new enduro batts that wayne is selling.I'd like to see how they stack up against the eneloops.


----------



## TinderBox (UK)

hello Rommul

have you tried keeping the place where the seam overlaps, on all the batterys towards the center.

regards.




Rommul said:


> I bought 12 powerex 2500's for a light I am building for a friend.
> 
> They fit a minimag fine and four of them fit side by side down the barrel of a red 2D mag but won't fit down the barrel of a black 2D I have.


----------



## Rommul

TinderBox (UK) said:


> hello Rommul
> 
> have you tried keeping the place where the seam overlaps, on all the batterys towards the center.
> 
> regards.



Thanks for the suggestion. They fit in the black mag but very tight. I would probably have trouble getting them out if I used them that way. The fit is so tight it wouldn't leave a any room for thermal expansion.

Good tip though


----------



## Handlobraesing

Here's my analysis of Duracell 2650mAh, readily available at Wal-Mart. Since you seldom use an NiMH in solo, I tested them with four connected in series, to show the capcity you will realistically get. The Wh capacity is of four cells.







Batteries were fully charged, then allowed to rest for an hour, then tested at a discharge current of around 650mA. These batteries are supposed to deliver 2.65Ah at 530mA load, so it did better than the specs. Discharging was terminated when the total voltage hit 3.2v (0.8v per cell)

To follow the IEC standard testing procedure, I should load the batteries with a constant current, which I can't do with what I have available, so I used a resistor of known value. Knowing the resistance, all you got to measure is the voltage over time and rest can be calculated, therefore a ghetto setup like below works just fine. 






The volt meter is accurate to 0.025%, so most of the error is in the thermal coefficient of the resistor, which should be small enough to ignore.


----------



## Handlobraesing

graph updated


----------



## evan9162

Use an LM317 and a power resistor and you have your constant current load.


----------



## john2551

Handlobraesing said:


> graph updated


 
Due to your post, i went & bought an 8 pack at Walmart. These not only perform better than other NiMh but are priced a lot better than the Energizer 2500's. The price was $15.87 for 8! Less than $2 each!


----------



## SilverFox

Update:

After 90 days of room temperature storage, the Eneloop cells are at 88% of their initial capacity. They seem to be holding up rather well.

Tom


----------



## Bullzeyebill

Tom have you heard anything about the Titanium Power Enduro Low Self-Discharge NIMH rechargeable battery that is sold at Amondotech? They talk low discharge, 1 1/2% a month or so. Available now, and $10.00 for four.

Bill


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Bill,

I have not tried those yet, but believe that Modamag is running some tests on them.

Tom


----------



## CroMAGnet

SilverFox said:


> Hello Bill,
> 
> I have not tried those yet, but believe that Modamag is ruining some tests on them.
> 
> Tom


*Are you sure that he's "ruining" some tests on them?*


----------



## N162E

SilverFox said:


> Hello Bill,
> 
> I have not tried those yet, but believe that Modamag is ruining some tests on them.
> 
> Tom


That sounds like a test a certain un-named charger of mine ran on 4 of my cells awhile back. :laughing:


----------



## SilverFox

Oops, spelling error corrected...

Tom


----------



## lokerd

Hello. I am a photographer (weddings, nature) and photography teacher (high school) and I am in need of some advice. I have been using rechargeable batteries since the late 80s with NiCDs, etc., so I have a bit of usage experience...but the technical details of this site of quite a bit to understand.

About 2 years ago, I purchased about 300 Poweriser 2250s for my students to use with Canon A85s and other various equipment. We still use film cameras and Vivitar 283 flashes, etc. I also personally use a lot of nimh AAs for flashes, P&S camers, and other equipment.

One question is about what to replace the Powerizers with. This past school year, I started to have a lot of challenges with students taking fully charged sets, and then coming back saying that they were dead. I am in the process of trying to get a "smart" loaded tester, which I think will help to narrow down which ones are starting to fail. But I plan to purchase another 100 or so for this school year. I need a battery that will hold up to a lot of charges. I check out two sets to the students so that I don't have to charge a set everytime it come in...only when they die. But when it comes time to shoot in class, which means everybody shooting together, all day long, I tend to charge every battery up. The point is, our batteries tend to get a lot of charge cycles. So, is there one battery over another that may handle the increased charge cycles better than another? I jsut read a disppointing test result on the Poweriser that showed it failing after 7 test cycles.

The second question is about the test results indicating 1.4v. I thought most Nimhs were rated at 1.2, but most of the rest charts show 1.4+ at starting voltages. I recently got some new batteries for my own photography use. They are from B&H and are called Power2000. They are rated at 1.25 and 2700. I don't have any official numbers, but they last an entire wedding...whereas the 2250s would need to be replace about 3/4 of the way through a wedding. I have already gotten some more of these Power2000s (2700s)...but I want to get even more for myself. But what about this 1.25 rating...vs the 1.4+ test results of some of these other brands on here? Has anybody tested this battery? Would it be a good battery to also get for the students?

Thanks for any feedback!

Drew


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Drew,

Welcome to CPF.

Cycle life depends on a number of factors. We know that over discharging, over charging, and extended trickle charging will reduce cycle life. Now there is some evidence that the higher capacity cells do not have as great a cycle life as the lower capacity cells.

You may find [ulr=http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=114943]this[/url] comparison interesting.

Camera equipment seems to shut things down at somewhere around 1.0 - 1.1 volts per cell. It sounds like your cells are going below that voltage quickly. It could be that you could revive your cells by a few deeper discharge/charge cycles.

I have noticed that the cycle life information that is available goes strictly on capacity with no mention of voltage retention. I have also noticed that it is typically given for lower capacity cells. If I am correct in thinking that the life cycle of higher capacity cells is less, you may be better off with lower capacity cells. As you have pointed out, the problem with lower capacity cells is that they do not last as long. 

Perhaps you need a variety of capacity cells. High capacity cells for "business," and high cycle life cells for "playing around."

A NiMh cell will come off the charger at around 1.4 volts. After a few days it will settle down to around 1.35 volts. The "typical" self discharge rate for the current NiMh cells in use is around 0.7% per day. The Sanyo Eneloop cells and the Titanium Endura cells are advertised as low self discharge and this seems to be the case.

A typical NiMh cell utilizing the current chemistry will be at around 53% in 90 days of storage. I recently tested some Eneloop cells that were at 88% after 90 days of room temperature storage. That is quite an improvement. Keep in mind that higher temperatures equal higher self discharge rates.

I would look at the Titanium 2000 mAh, Powerex 2000 mAh, or the Accupower 2100 mAh cells for your students. If you have a bigger budget you may also consider the Eneloop or Endura cells, but they are pretty new and we don't know how many cycles they are good for. When shooting weddings you may want to pick up some of the higher capacity cells (2500 - 2700 mAh), but you may want to keep track of the number of cycles on them and when you get up to around 100-150 cycles, you may want to change over to another set.

Tom


----------



## lokerd

*Difference between 1.2 and 1.25?*

Thanks for the feedback! Great forum BTW! Love all the testing you have done.

I think I understand what you are saying about the voltage...that basically manufactures are just putting the voltage at what it is on the average, and that Nimh averages 1.2 the entire cycle. So, is there any difference in the rating of 1.2 by most, and this Power2000 that is rated at 1.25? I have seen a rating 1.25 before and thought it was unique then.

As far as the students, when they check out a camera, they have it for only one week, so self discharge is not really the issue. I want to get the highest rated capcity...so I don;t have to charge as often. Actually, to further clarify how the system works, I jst need more batteries. What was happening the last part of this past school year is that I did not have enough sets , mainly when each student was shooting with their own camera, 5 classes, 20+ students, 4 batteries per camera. By the end of the day, I was running short. As long as I get some more sets, and correctly identify which cells are starting to fail, I should be ok.

The real challenge is in trying to decide on which 2700 to get. I have been reviewing your graphs and charts...but their are quite a few 2700s that are now on the market. I like to get good values...and am tempted by the CTA 2700.

Got any more test results coming? 

Thanks for all your efforts!

Drew


----------



## john2551

Drew,
The Duracell 2650 seems to be the current champion, testing higher than other 2700 & 2900 batteries: http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=119022

John


----------



## lokerd

john2551 said:


> The Duracell 2650 seems to be the current championhttp://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=119022
> John




Cool news! I just got back from a trip to WM to get a set to try out. I didn;t realize they were getting such reviews...I had only seen that WM had a good deal on them. At $16 for 8, I can buy a bundle for the new school year! Great post!

Drew


----------



## bp044

My four 2500 energizer cells dated 9/04 failed to take or hold a full charge [40 to60 % on ctz tester.] Using a maha 204F charger.I called energizer customer service I was told the company recomends only chargers of their manufacture. Is this B.S or do i have to boy an energizer charger ?

























i















i












i


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Bp,

Maha is not exactly a no name charger manufacturer. I would be interested to find out what the Maha charger does that the Energizer chargers don't do... or perhaps it is the other way around.

Energizer is free to recommend anything they want, but that does not mean that charging on another charger is going to hurt their batteries. Tell them that the Maha 204F is very similar to their CHCARCP charger.

Energizer is getting calls from lots of others that are having problems with the 2500 mAh cells. This sounds like they may be trying to shift blame from their cells to something else...

Call Energizer and complain. They should offer to replace the cells. You can also do a search on Energizer 2500 problems for additional information.

Tom


----------



## paulr

I'm also having trouble with some 2200 mah energizer cells.


----------



## moses

*Best NiMh for 2 to 2.5 amps draw?*

THANKS for a great sticky. This is invaluable. 

Perhaps my EE skills are rusty beyond help..... but I've read the above till I was crosseyed and still am not quite sure. 

I have a daily EDC that draws about 2.3 amps. Since it is a single cell AA, I'd like: 

1. As high a voltage as possible at the 2.3 amps draw. (The draw goes up as voltage drops so up to 3 ams would be nice.) Given that this is a single AA light, the converter is really being strained and I figure the higher the voltage, the better it is for the converter. 

2. Balanced with high capacity. 

Would the Sanyo 2700 be the ticket? 

I also saw some 2650 Duracells at Walmart. Wonder how those would do. 

Any advice gratefully accepted. 

THANKS!
Mo


----------



## InfidelCastro

Have there been any tests on the Sony 2500's?


----------



## BigusLightus

I'm bummed. I bought two 8 packs of EnergyGeezer AA NiMH about six months ago and they are all failing bad. I'm having to use alkies cause they last longer than my rechargeables in my Cannon digital camera. I thought I was doing something wrong so I tried both of my chargers. My new Maha 401FS which has only been used in slow mode and my Maha MH-C777 which I've been using for all of my ham radio battery packs for many years. These batteries refuse to hold a charge no matter how I charge/discharge or what charger I use. I have other NiMH batts that have been "going and going and going" for many years and are still "going and going..." and none of them are EnergyGeezers!

Edit: The Thomas Distributing website mentions that the these batts have a *"* *lifetime limited warranty directly from Energizer".* I think I'll have a chat with the EnergyGeezer customer service people tomorrow. 1-800-383-7323. :touche:


----------



## N162E

BigusLightus said:


> I'm bummed. I bought two 8 packs of EnergyGeezer AA NiMH about six months ago and they are all failing bad.
> 
> 
> Edit: The Thomas Distributing website mentions that the these batts have a *"* *lifetime limited warranty directly from Energizer".* I think I'll have a chat with the EnergyGeezer customer service people tomorrow. 1-800-383-7323. :touche:


I feel your pain. I bought 3 eight packs (24) about a year ago and have had 5 of them fail in the last couple of months. The failures happened to me out of town, without a charger handy and being used in my digital camera. Lucky for me nothing important.

I won't be depending on NIMH Energizers at this time.


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe

I had a pair of Energizer 2500s go dead in my GPSr WAY before normal.

Both checked at 1.14v when pulled. I charged them back up with the 15 minute charger and they did just beautiful the next day.

NOTHING is perfect!


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe

Curiously, the next two Energizer 2500mAh batteries charged EXACTLY the same way as the first two came through today with flying colors.

The mystery is why the first pair BOTH went down to 1.14... Not just one!

OH! And these two today were charged Saturday!


----------



## BigusLightus

Had good luck today with Cust Srvc at EnergyGeezer. Well, sort of. They offered to replace all twenty of my six month old failing AA 2500's. Perhaps there are some new batches at the stores and I'm hoping the bad batts were from just one bad batch. All of my batts had a stamp on the side. Either "04-05 AS" or "06-05 LV". All were "Made in Japan" and had HR stamped on the negative contact.

I'm thankful for the prompt Cust Srvc (I wish all Cust Srvc calls went this well) but I'm wondering if I really should be trying another brand.


----------



## tomboy

hy guys, i'm new to this forum... and i don't realy know what those tests show... can anyone explain to me which are THE BEST batteryes for my future camera Canon Powershot A710 ??? i haven't seen Varta in the tests, why is that? Aren't they supposed to be the best?
thanks


----------



## Billson

Sanyo is supposed to be the best. The Titanium from Amondotech have tested pretty good as well.


----------



## tomboy

nevermind... i just ordered a charger VARTA (12 hours charging time) + 4 batteries of 2500 mAh
I see Varta as being the best... so... i think i made the right choice!


----------



## SilverFox

Ifoxbox sent me some NiCd 4/5A Sanyo cells to check out. I know this is a thread about NiMh cells, but I thought I would just list the graph along with the others.

These NiCd cells are rated 1100 mAh, and would still hold some voltage at 20 amps. Check out the graph in the first post.

Thanks Jake, I'll get the cells in the mail back to you on Monday.

Tom


----------



## ifoxbox

Thanks Tom! I sent you a PM.


----------



## etc

This has been mentioned before... but I've had good luck with Powerex AA cells in 2700 MaH capacity. 

The run time in Mini Mag seems to be at least as good as with Alkalines and likely better.


----------



## LuxLuthor

Looking at the graph on page one....is the Sanyo 2700 still the best performer? I'm asking as it would apply to this FM light application.

Thanks


----------



## jwcrim

If (as often referenced) NiMH batteries self-discharge at a rate of roughly 30% per month under typical conditions, then a 2000 mah Eneloop has the same capacity as a 2700 mah Sanyo after it has been idle for about 30 days. After that it is much better.

So (as mentioned before) unless you will have an opportunity to recharge just before every use, the higher initial capacity of the 2700 isn't of much benefit. A light that is to be available for unplanned used and is not constantly topped off by a holder-charger would probably much more useful with Eneloops.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Jwcrim,

Welcome to CPF.

The 1% per day self discharge figure for NiMh cells does not actually work out to 30% per month. I should point out that NiMh cells start out less than that (at around 0.7%) and as they age, it increases. We have some Energizer and Sanyo 2500 mAh cells that end up completely discharged in as little as 2 weeks, however there may be a manufacturing problem with these cells.

The 1% self discharge refers to the remaining capacity. You start out with 100%. One day later you have 99% (0.99X100). On day two you end up with 98.01% (0.99X99). The third day you end up with 97.03% (0.99X98.01), and so on. In 30 days you end up with just under 75%. After 70 days, you are at 50%.

Comparing the 2700 mAh cells with the Eneloop 2000 mAh cells, we find that after 30 days the 2700 cells are down to about 2200 mAh, and the Eneloop 2000 mAh cells are down to about 1870 mAh. Going out to 60 days, the 2700 cells drop to around 1784 mAh, and the Eneloop 2000 mAh cells are down to around 1815 mAh. As you can see, the advantage of the slow self discharge rate of the Eneloop cells kicks in at around 2 months.

In critical use, it is recommended to do a discharge/charge cycle every 30 days. If you stick to this, and need the extra capacity, the 2700 cells will always give you better run time.

The advantage of low capacity cells is that they are more robust. The higher capacity cells have a shorter cycle life (40-200) and can not tolerate fast charging rates (i.e. 15 minute charging) as well as the lower capacity cells. The Eneloop cells may actually be able to live up to their advertised 1000 cycles. Fast charging has an effect on the lower capacity cells, but not nearly as much as it has on the higher capacity cells.

Tom


----------



## EngrPaul

I've heard fast charging is bad. My MAHA charger states that doing soft charging helps with battery life.

However, I've also read at BatteryUniversity:

"Nickel-metal-hydride should be rapid charged rather than slow charged."

"nickel-based batteries prefer fast-charge. Lingering slow charges cause crystalline formation (memory)."

WHO IS CORRECT?


----------



## SilverFox

Hello EngrPaul,

The terms seem confusing, but let me see if I can clarify them.

The Battery University "slow charge" translates to what we call a forming charge. It is charging at a rate that fully charges a discharged cell in 14 - 16 hours (commonly called the 0.1C rate, where C refers to the advertised capacity of the cell). This charge should be done initially, and after every 20 - 25 partial charge/discharge cycles. If you do a full discharge every time, this is probably not necessary, but it doesn't hurt.

The "quick charge" is what we are trying to avoid. While there is no problem charging at a rate that charges the cells in 3 - 6 hours, the end of charge signal can be weaker at this rate. Sometimes the "smart" charger will miss this end of charge signal and over charge the cells. Over charging results in overly hot cells and heat kills NiMh cells. Warm is OK, but hot is not.

The "fast charge," and I suppose we could call the "half fast charge," is what the battery manufacturers recommend for charging. This rate charges cells in 1 - 2 hours, and gives a strong end of charge signal. I would refer to this as a normal charge rate.

Technology has progressed and now we have 15 minute chargers. Battery University does not have a category for this. Perhaps they will call it "really fast charging." When I refer to fast charging, this is what I am referring to. If you check out the thread called Cycle Testing Observations, you can read up on the results of repeated cycles on a fast charger, and a really fast charger...  

I believe the crystalline formation is a result of extended trickle charging. Do not leave your cells in the charger on trickle charge for extended periods of time. It is better to utilize a timer that runs once a day to keep cells topped up.

Clear as mud? 

Tom


----------



## EngrPaul

That helps. It's all relative!

Let me simplify what you said.

For typical charging of NiMH:

0.1C is too slow
0.2C to 0.4C is optimal
0.5C to 1.0C is a little too much
2.0C-4.0C is not good at all.

Do you agree?


----------



## jwcrim

.


----------



## jwcrim

Thanks Tom for the welcome and the figures.

I can see that high capacity cells are useful for applications that are likely to pretty much exhaust the cell within 30 days (plus or minus). But even for these applications the availability of spare charged up eneloops that require hardly any charge maintenance could be a more convenient and practical solution than the charge-before-use requirement for high capacity cells.

It is interesting that for more typical applications, high capacity cells while much less tolerant of multiple charge/discharge cycles could actually require many more charge/discharge cycles than do the eneloop cells (for the same application).

It may well turn out that users will conclude that using high capacity cells instead of eneloops may be optimum only for special case applications rather than the reverse.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello EngrPaul,

No.

I would say

0.1C is good for fully discharged cells and should be timer terminated.
0.2C to 0.4C is too slow.
0.5C to 1.0C is ideal and recommended by the battery manufacturers.
2.0C to 4.0C is convenient, but requires a special charger to keep cell temperatures down. If you only charge at this rate, you should plan on replacing your cells every 150 cycles, or so.

Tom


----------



## EngrPaul

Thanks Tom. Your advice made me turn on my printer


----------



## RobSpook

SilverFox said:


> Hello EngrPaul,
> 
> No.
> 
> I would say
> 
> 0.1C is good for fully discharged cells and should be timer terminated.
> 0.2C to 0.4C is too slow.
> 0.5C to 1.0C is ideal and recommended by the battery manufacturers.
> 2.0C to 4.0C is convenient, but requires a special charger to keep cell temperatures down. If you only charge at this rate, you should plan on replacing your cells every 150 cycles, or so.
> 
> Tom



Tom, After you told me that the best charge rate to use was .5 - 1C for the batteries, I attempted to charge my 2500mah Energizers at 1A on my BC-900. The charger heats the batteries and then shuts down for a few minutes, and repeats this until the battery is full. Is this good for the battery? It seems like at 500mah or 700 mah, they charge without the shut downm but this contradicts the figures above...

Just wondering what to do! Thanks A LOT for all your advice!


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Rob,

When cells heat up, it means that there is increased internal resistance within the cell. If these are brand new cells, you need to do a 0.1C charge first, in an effort to spread the electrolyte evenly inside the cell. If these are cells with over 10 cycles on them, you should contact Energizer and ask for replacements.

Energizer recommends a 1C charge rate, so throw that at them if they give you any grief. If you have access to one of the 15 minute chargers, it would be interesting to see if the charger will reject the cell.

I regularly charge Energizer 2500 mAh cells on the BC-900 at 1 A all the time, and do so without heating problems.

Energizer has had some problems with the 2500 mAh cells, and it is possible that your cells may be from the same batch. Put a few more cycles on them. If the heating continues, I would guess that your cells are marginal, or bad.

Tom


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe

ARGH!

I placed 4 of my Duracell 2500 in a Maha slow charger after my C Crane was done with them.

They were in there for maybe 2 hours. 

I just got 'em out and they were pretty dang warm. I'd HATE to ruin these!

I have at least 50 total NimH AA, with 8 being Duracell 2500, 12 being Duracell 1800 and the rest Energizer 2500 and smaller.

I've lost two E2500s and have two more under close watch. This sux!


----------



## MattK

SilverFox said:


> Hello EngrPaul,
> 
> No.
> 
> I would say
> 
> 0.1C is good for fully discharged cells and should be timer terminated.
> 0.2C to 0.4C is too slow.
> 0.5C to 1.0C is ideal and recommended by the battery manufacturers.
> 2.0C to 4.0C is convenient, but requires a special charger to keep cell temperatures down. If you only charge at this rate, you should plan on replacing your cells every 150 cycles, or so.
> 
> Tom



I agree 100% - that's jibes with the battery mfr data sheets and with my experience.


----------



## digic1

Tom and everyone,

This is indeed a very informative thread and lots of work too. In fact, I have gone through every post here trying to figure out what is going on. I have a question regarding Energizer AA 2500 mah NiMh, last week I got 3 x 4 packs of these from Home Depot, for about $5 each and I thought this is a good deal. Now, I am reading about the self discharge problem of such batteries. These batteries most probably will be sitting in a dig cam or a toy for long, so that might be a problem for me.

I am looking for an advice; should I return these (they are still unopened)? or they are not that bad considering the price. I have Sony 2300 mah and they are great. So, do you suggest a different brand instead? I thought Energizer should be good but I might be naiive here. Your advice will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Digic1,

Welcome to CPF.

In light of the recent problems with the Energizer 2500 cells, I would suggest that you return them. 

If your application involves sitting for extended periods of time, you may want to consider getting some of the low self discharge cells like the Sanyo Eneloop.

Tom


----------



## digic1

SilverFox said:


> Hello Digic1,
> 
> Welcome to CPF.
> 
> In light of the recent problems with the Energizer 2500 cells, I would suggest that you return them.
> 
> If your application involves sitting for extended periods of time, you may want to consider getting some of the low self discharge cells like the Sanyo Eneloop.
> 
> Tom


 
Thanks a lot for the quick reply, considering the price difference between eneloop 2000 mah and Sony 2500 mah, do you think Sony is a good choice too or still going to suffer from self discharge? How about 900 mah AAA batteries?


----------



## wmpwi

SilverFox,

I wish I had searched the forum a little more before pushing the buy button, but you look like the man on the battery front. I was reading your posts on Steve's. I just bought the BC-900 and 8 of the La Crosse 2000 mA for my Canon S3IS. Given you common interest, if not expertise, does this combo sound like a good fit? It's not too late for me to change any or all of my order.

Thanks,


----------



## N162E

wmpwi said:


> SilverFox,
> 
> I wish I had searched the forum a little more before pushing the buy button, but you look like the man on the battery front. I was reading your posts on Steve's. I just bought the BC-900 and 8 of the La Crosse 2000 mA for my Canon S3IS. Given you common interest, if not expertise, does this combo sound like a good fit? It's not too late for me to change any or all of my order.
> 
> Thanks,


Hi Charley,this is Fred. Hope you are not too disappoionted.LOL The charger is first rate, its in its third generation and many of us (I have two) have been using them since they came out. The one weak area I found was the Lacrosse batteries. My AAs were good for about 1300 ma, I did not even test the AAAs. Digital cameras put heavy demands on batteries, you need the best ones you can get. My experience with the Lacrosse batteries was two years ago, a lot can change. Your new charger will enable you to evaluate these batteries. Check them before you use them.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Charley,

I would agree with Fred. The LaCrosse batteries are not well matched from cell to cell and seem to be "over rated" in regards to capacity.

In camera use, many people have been going to the low self discharge batteries like the Sanyo Eneloop cells. You loose a little capacity, but the batteries seem to hold up better.

Tom


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe

While at Walmart today I grabbed 8 Rayovac "Hybrid" 2100mAh cells.

They claim to hold charge 4x longer than "any other rechargable".

I'll report as well as I can on the use of them. I think I can set up two pretty much identical 8AA lights. I'll use that to see if current is up to snuff....

As they came out of the package they have a charge state of between 1.310V and 1.317V....


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe

Though the Hybrids are 2100mAh, they are still a bit too fat to fit 4 across in a M*g.

Got a couple other lights they'll work in just fine however!!!


----------



## wmpwi

Thanks all. I don't mind screwing up the battery choice as much as I would be disappointed if I over / wrongly spent on the charger. I'll run them for a while and see how they work for me. I can always try different cells. And Fred did freak me out if only for a second.





N162E said:


> Hi Charley,this is Fred. Hope you are not too disappoionted . . .


----------



## RobSpook

SilverFox said:


> Hello Rob,
> 
> If these are cells with over 10 cycles on them, you should contact Energizer and ask for replacements.
> 
> Energizer has had some problems with the 2500 mAh cells, and it is possible that your cells may be from the same batch. Put a few more cycles on them. If the heating continues, I would guess that your cells are marginal, or bad.
> 
> Tom



Tom, The batteries were all stamped 08-04 or 11-04 and Energizer sent me a postage paid label to send them back. The said they'll send me coupons for replacements when they are received. 

Anyone interested in some Energizer coupons? I just purchased 20 more Eneloops from Ritz ($46 shipped to APO) bringing my total Eneloop count to 40... Don't think i'll need the Energizers anymore. Anyway if someone is interested, please send a PM instead responding in this thread to keep it on-topic.

RobSpook


----------



## gdhumphreys

Hi RobSpook.

I think that is a good call on the eneloop batteries. I have 20 of the AAs and 20 of the AAAs, and they seem robust. I really like the low self discharge, and in my tests, they stay at 1.2 volts or above for most of their discharge cycle. Also, all the ones I have tested very close to their rated capacity.

In the future, the eneloop batteries are what I will be purchasing for most of my applications. As a side note, I, too, have had problems with the energizer batteries. I am curious, does anyone know who made the energizer batteries? Was it energizer, or or they rebranded?


----------



## NiOOH

gdhumphreys said:


> Hi RobSpook.
> 
> I think that is a good call on the eneloop batteries. I have 20 of the AAs and 20 of the AAAs, and they seem robust. I really like the low self discharge, and in my tests, they stay at 1.2 volts or above for most of their discharge cycle. Also, all the ones I have tested very close to their rated capacity.
> 
> In the future, the eneloop batteries are what I will be purchasing for most of my applications. As a side note, I, too, have had problems with the energizer batteries. I am curious, does anyone know who made the energizer batteries? Was it energizer, or or they rebranded?


 
Energizer 2500 mAh are made by Sanyo


----------



## SilverFox

Hello NiOOH,

Correction... Energizer and Sanyo use the same cans, insulators on top, and seem to use very similar separators. No one has analyzed the chemical electrolyte to see if it is the same. 

In test runs, the Sanyo cells rate about 6% higher than the Energizer in watt hours.

However, we have seen both brands exhibit high rates of self discharge.

Does that make them the same...?

Tom


----------



## moldyoldy

I agree with SilverFox - we do not actually know for sure. FWIW, I have observed reports on CPF that some Sanyo AA cells are manufactured in China and some in Japan. The Sanyo 2700 cells that I returned for fast self-discharge issues do not have the "HR" stamped on the negative terminal either. I suspect that we really don't know much about which cells are the problem cells and which are not. Lots of circumstantial evidence. The people who know are not about to talk either!

Tim


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe

I alternate running Energizer 2500 HR and Duracell 2500 HR in my GPSr.

I have had to ditch at least one E 2500, and haven't had the D 2500s for as long.

But that said, the D 2500s have never even hiccuped so far...

Who's to say who made 'em or where they were made?


----------



## garyinri

SilverFox said:


> I would say
> 
> 0.1C is good for fully discharged cells and should be timer terminated.
> 0.2C to 0.4C is too slow.
> 0.5C to 1.0C is ideal and recommended by the battery manufacturers.
> 2.0C to 4.0C is convenient, but requires a special charger to keep cell temperatures down. If you only charge at this rate, you should plan on replacing your cells every 150 cycles, or so.


Based on these guidelines, at which rate should I be charging my Energizer 2500 AA cells? 500, 700, 1000? I'm wondering if I have been using a charge rate that has been less than optimal (usually 700) which may have led to an early death for one of my cells and fairly rapid discharge rates for the others.

I am also going to purchase some of the Sanyo Eneloop 2000 AA cells. What would be the optimal charging rate to use for them based on the guidelines above?

Thank you.
Gary


----------



## Anders

Hello garyinri.

Based on the guideline you should charge the cells at 1250mAh to 2500mAh for the Energizer 2500 AA cells and from 1000mAh to 2000mAh for the Eneloop cells.

C is the nominal capacitance from the manufacturer in A.


Anders


----------



## garyinri

Thanks Anders.

I neglected to mention that I am using the LaCrosse BC-900 charger. So it appears that for the Energizer 2500's, time permitting, it would be better to charge two cells at a time at the 1500 or 1800 mA current as opposed to charging four at a time at the 1000 mA current?

(Maximum current when charing 3 or 4 cells in the BC-900 is 1000mA. Maximum current while charging 1 or 2 cells is either 1500 or 1800mA.)

-Gary


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Gary,

Welcome to CPF.

I use the BC-900 at 1 amp for charging 2500 mAh cells all the time, AFTER they have a few cycles on them and they are broken in. You have to watch the first few cycles closely. Warm cells are OK, hot is not OK.

If you go to charging 2 cells at a time at either the 1.5 or 1.8 amp rate, the charger will get a strong end of charge signal and should never be confused.

Tom


----------



## garyinri

Thanks Tom.

Hopefully last question(s).

Will the Eneloop 2000's need a break-in period as well? Or does their newer technolgy negate that need? I assume I would use the same "rules" in charging them (2 cells at 1.5/1.8A or 4 at 1A) as was recommended with the 2500's?

-Gary


----------



## RobSpook

I know you're asking Tom, and that I am not Tom, but I chose to use my Eneloops right out of the pack. I figure over the first few charge cycles the chemicles will balance themselves.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Gary,

I do the same as Rob does.

The cells I used for testing showed little change over the first few cycles. Perhaps they are "formed" at the factory...

Tom


----------



## RecycledElectron

I'm interested in more information on the Enerloop and Ray O Vac Hybrid AAA's. I realize that fewer AAA's are used than AA's, but I use them in small LED lights and FRS radios. Recently I've formed 4 LaCrosse 800's, 8 Tenergy 1000's and 8 Duracell 1000's. According to my Maha Wizard One's forming program the LaCrosse's discharged only 550-650 mah. Two cycles didn't help them. The Tenergy are 790-850 mah batteries. The Duracells are as advertised, one at 1004 mah, one at exactly 1000, the rest at 982-998 mah. 

I'd like to compare these with the figures from someone who has formed up some of the Eneloops and Ray O Vac Hybrids. I plan on checking out the Tenergy's to see if they hold voltage as well as their AA bigger brothers and to see if they have a similar low self discharge rate. (The Tenergy 2300 AA's when tested by a member of the Ezone forums showed a much lower self dischage rate than the usual Nimh. Of course they only charge up to 1850-1980 mah.) I use small LED flashlights as emergency and travel lights so I'm looking for some AAA's that have a low self-discharge rate, so I don't have to service unused lights more than twice a year for them to be usable when needed. Tenergy's are less than a buck apiece, considerably cheaper than Eneloop and Hybrids. But, I don't know how they compare in useability and if the Eneloops and Hybrids are worth the extra price. Has anyone already tread this path?


----------



## Christexan

Just a few notes, since Energizers are an active topic here...
I've come across several forums in the recent past stressing that the Chinese Energizer 2500s are much more reliable than the Japanese factory ones. I don't know if that's the case but I've deliberately bought them based on this anecdotal evidence (sometimes there is only 1 out of 20 on the shelf that is the chinese ones)... anyhow, long story short
I have 16 of these now, 1x4 pack that is over a year old, and a 4 and 8 pack that are a few months old now, all used in bike light applications (pretty heavy draws). So far they have all been fine with one exception, when testing individual cells the other day (I keep them in matched groups of 4) one of the newest packs of 4 were all measuring in the 1.28V range (partially discharged), but 1 was at 1.04V. I built a quick and dirty single cell charger (all my commercial ones are 2-cells per channel), and brought it back up to the 1.28V range without incident (at 360mA, that's what my pot was stable around, no real reason). Anyhow, I'll be testing tonight, but it's not so much what I've found in this incident as what COULD have happened....
Had I continued using this cell (which may be fine, might have just been out of balance with the rest), at some point it would have likely fallen so far behind the others as to get over discharged or reversed even, and been one of the infamous "dead" Energizer 2500s. This could likely be happening with others out there and might explain it some. I'm hoping to have caught it in time, and will run a few charge/discharge cycles with it (and it's siblings) and report back the results.


----------



## SilverFox

Update:

I have added the results for some Digital Concepts AA 2500 mAh cells that Macdude22 sent me. They do OK at lower current draws, but fall on their face at higher rates.

Tom


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe

While it's an incredible PITA to do, now and again I take the batteries out of my Hotrod lights (multi AA) and check each one. I usually catch problems before they get bad.

That said, the ones (energizer 2500) I use 2 at a time in my GPSr has lost another one. It self discharges WAY faster than the others. I charged it solo in my C Crane Quik Charger maybe 4 days ago, and it's already down to 1.26 (when others are still 1.32ish after a week or more).


----------



## HashPipeK

I have 8 of the Digital Concepts 2200s and 4 of the 2500s. I don't think the 2500s are much better than the 2200s to be honest. I have them because they are the cheapest at Wal-mart so it is what I would buy before I started to learn more about batteries. They did seem to serve well enough in the Digital Camera and wireless controllers though I suppose.


----------



## Brighteyez

Well ... add one more to the count. I bought about 5-6 packs of the Chinese Energizers 2500s from Home Depot a while back (before Christmas) when they were closing them out for about $5-6 a pack. I charged them all up and they kind of got put aside and forgotten about. Today I ran across them (it's been about a month) and they still had most of their charge. Can't say that's been indicative of other higher capacity NiMHs that I've tried (e.g. Duracell 2650,) that are next to useless after a month.



Christexan said:


> I've come across several forums in the recent past stressing that the Chinese Energizer 2500s are much more reliable than the Japanese factory ones. I don't know if that's the case but I've deliberately bought them based on this anecdotal evidence (sometimes there is only 1 out of 20 on the shelf that is the chinese ones)... anyhow, long story short


----------



## AndyTiedye

Lenmar "NoMem" AA's (any size) seem to forget that I charged them within a couple of weeks.


----------



## viorel00

AndyTiedye said:


> Lenmar *"NoMem"* AA's (any size) seem to *forget* that I charged them within a couple of weeks.



I guess that's where NoMem (No Memory) comes from? LOL


----------



## Brighteyez

Hmmm .... Methinks that someone else bought a bunch of those crummy things from Fry's when they were just short of giving away those 10 packs with those stupid Egg chargers?. If it's of any consolation, mine behaved in the same manner, charge 'em and use 'em right away or lose it. 

Want a couple of Egg chargers? Haven't opened them so I don't know if they work ... 



AndyTiedye said:


> Lenmar "NoMem" AA's (any size) seem to forget that I charged them within a couple of weeks.


----------



## SilverFox

Update:

I just added the results from the high current Titanium Power Max AA 1800 mAh cells. These cells are very impressive. At room temperature, they are as good as the CBP 1650 mAh cells are "hot." 

They did fall flat on their face at 20 Amps, but are only rated at 18 Amps, so I will cut them some slack.

Very impressive cells. If you are running a Mag85, or other high current draw light, you may want to consider these cells.

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

Update:

Macdude22 also sent me some Tenergy cells. I have been having problems with them and have posted my "standard discharge" results in the first post. They are not consistent from cell to cell, so there will be no graphs to show typical results.

Others have tested these cells and have not commented on the lack of consistency, so I will reserve comments on Tenergy until I explore this further.

Tom


----------



## Action

SliverFox, any chance you could update the table on the first post to include columns based on current draw? Like a column on 1A, 2A, 5A, 8A and sort by the 1A draw? Or maybe link to an excel spreadsheet so that we could sort to our hearts content to figure out which batteries are best by application?


----------



## Action

Double post...


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Action,

That is very low on my priority list, however all the data is there. If you would like to do it, that would be fine with me.

Tom


----------



## Peepsalot

Silverfox,

Have you heard of the Hybrio batteries from Ultralast/Uniross? Looks like they are designed for low self discharge along the lines of the Eneloops. I was curious how they stack up. I saw some in Fry's the other day while looking at the eneloops.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Peepsalot,

Welcome to CPF.

Yes, I even have some coupons for a saving on them. I was planning on picking some up last week, but things came up. I hope to get some this week.

Tom


----------



## mdocod

> The Tenergy 2300 AA's when tested by a member of the Ezone forums showed a much lower self dischage rate than the usual Nimh. Of course they only charge up to 1850-1980 mah.-RecycledElectron



just noticed this... 
Thought I would add that I have similar results with my Tenergy 2600 AA, and Tenergy 900 AAA. I use a Vanson Speedy box, I usually do a discharge/charge cycle leave cells on a few hours in the green like SilverFox has suggested.

I have sitting in front of me, 4 Energizer brand 2500mah AA cells that were charged 3 weeks ago in the manner described above, they all came off the charger ~1.45V. They have been sitting in my little plastic tub for cells on my desk, they have not been used for anything. Justed tested them, they are all 0.95V (+/- 0.03). They are DEAD after 3 weeks. At that rate of discharge, the only practical use for these cells is to use them FRESH off the charger... but even then I would imagine you would feel the effects of self discharge DURING the course of the actual discharge.

By contrast... I just pulled a pair of Tenergy 2600s from an electric hair trimmer. We use it very infrequently, but it has been used a few times since those cells were put in there over 4 months ago. they still measured over 1.2V. 

I also use a few Tenergy and Powerizer brand AAA size cells in TV remotes around the house... usually I stick them in there as a temp solution until I go get some alkalines, but usually forget about them, then I'll be looking for missing NIMH cells and remember a few months later, pull them out, and they are still over 1.2V.

I really can't complain about these cells.. My problem is I don't do a good job of keeping the cells in "sets" so some cells have been punished more than others, and don't perform as well (or in some cases perform better now), so I CREATED the same issues SilverFox mentioned having with these types of cells (variations from cell to cell))... I need to pick out a charger that has a digital readout of "capacity" at the end-of-charge so I can organize these things. In my own rudimentary testing the Tenergy 2600s were on par with The Energizer 2500s capacity wise- but seemed to deliver very high current loads slightly better (>5 amps) and they don't suffer from as much self-discharge.


----------



## Timson

I've just finished forming 9 x IB2000 cells supplied from CBP.
These are the ones that they bill as the replacements for CBP1650 cells with a performance and capacity increase as well as button tops.

Well - initial impressions show that these cells are very good.

At a .2C discharge rate they are all returning around 2100 + mAh and maintaining over 1.2v until they were 85% discharged....after which time they would drop quite quickly.

The first batch of cells that I formed first - after about 4 days rest were showing an open voltage of 1.38 - 1.39, the second set with a couple of days less rest time were showing 1.39 - 1.40 and the cells 10 mins out of the charger were showing 1.45v.

Placed them all into my FM 9AA to 3D and checked the open voltage of 12.6v
Dropped the pack into my Mag85, held my breath and fired it up.

WOW....So this is what a Mag85 is supposed to be like :naughty: A MAJOR improvement over my old Vapextech 2500's.
Can't wait for it to get dark!

So - All in all, first impressions are that these are true high current cells that you should all consider giving a go if you're in the market for new hotwire AA cells.


Tim.


----------



## Hallis

I wonder how these stack up toe to toe with the CBP1650's. It would be cool if you could send 4 of them to Silverfox temporariilly for testing. If they are good cells i might just swap out my 1650's in my Mag85 for these. 

Shane


----------



## Christexan

Regarding the Energizer AAs self-discharging quickly (and/or dying), to a voltage around 0.95... 
I've had a 4-pack of the 2500s since they first hit the market, and it's STILL going pretty strong (don't remember the exact age, but in the neighborhood of 2 years)... and I've bought three other 4-packs since then (the most recent within the past couple of months), attempting to keep in mind a thread I saw a while back...
The point of that thread was that the Chinese made cells appeared to be much more reliable than the Japanese ones...
I recently picked up the last 4-pack mentioned above, I think in December, and the store had only japanese sourced cells at that point (I'd previously carefully picked through many packs to find the few chinese ones on the shelf)... I now have 3 "dead" japanese sourced cells in my testing area (the fourth is probably not far behind)... these have all been through the same rigors, in fact the 4 japanese cells were combined in an 8-cell setup with 4 chinese cells, and ran fine at first. After only a few charges though (I only have 2-cell/4-bay chargers (2 pairs charge independently)), I noticed that my starting pack voltage was dropping after only a day or two off the charger, before being used... so I tested each cell separately... 7 of them tested from 1.28 to 1.38 volts (4 above 1.35, the other 3 (yep, the japanese ones), from 1.28 to 1.32. The 8th cell (japanese) was around 0.92 volts. So I quickly cobbled up a single-cell charger (voltage and current regulated) at 1.5 volts/500mA charge rate (the wall adapter I had handy couldn't do much better on the current), and clamped it in. A couple hours later, checked the voltmeter, the battery was climbing nicely, around 1.28 I think at that point... so I thought to myself, "okay, that's about the same as the weaker cells in the set, I'll try it again"... let it run a few more minutes and pulled it off the "charger", and put it with the other 3. 
Got busy with housework, a few hours later, I got back to it, tested the cell again for grins, it was at 1.02V and falling (literally falling around 0.01V every 10 seconds, or 0.06V per minute/0.36V per hour). I tried charging again, and when it was in the 1.28 range, put it with the other 3 and put into a normal charger and left overnight. Next day pulled them (they'd ended charge cycle) and tested, 3 at around 1.35+, the fourth at 1.1x and falling. 
Long story short (too late) 3 are now doing that (a pair that was kept together for charging purposes) and I'm sure the 4th isn't long to follow them, but since it's an "odd" number and I don't need an odd number, it's not getting used now. There appears to be some valid truth to the old thread that that japanese cells are terrible, and the chinese seem quite good by comparison (losing maybe 0.1V a week in my experience, not great, but good enough to charge a few days in advance for convenience). My next gamble will be better Sanyo's or something with more consistent quality.


----------



## Skibane

Aside from the apparent reliability problems with Japanese-made Energizers, would it be a fair statement to say that, in general, Japanese-made cells come closer to meeting their specified capacities than Chinese-made ones?

Judging by these test results, it would seem that most of the really glaring shortcomings in capacity are in Chinese-manufactured cells - although I'm not certain of the country of origin of every tested cell.


----------



## hotdjdave

*Energizer 2650 NiMH Batteries*



SilverFox said:


> This is just getting started. I will add graphs as I finish the testing. If you have some NiMh cells that you would like to see the test results of, contact me for my shipping address so I can borrow a couple of cells for testing.


If possible, the Energizer 2650 NiMH batteries. 

Also, maybe there could be a category (column) for new (out of the package) and aged batteries. The batteries may perform differently after several months of usage. Just a thought.

My first post here. Interesting web site. 



Dave (K9DJW)


----------



## Robstorch

I got a refund on about 12 2500mah Energizers(Japan) they would drop below 1 volt in a week. I just checked the last 3 sets of 4 energizers(japan) and they are still holding at 1.33-1.31 for a few weeks. Best batteries I have are my Panasonic 2100mah(china), they really hold up well.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Dave,

Welcome to CPF.

If you have some Energizer 2650 mAh cells that you are interested in having tested, PM me for my shipping address, and I will check them out.

I have some Duracell 2650 cells, but not the Energizer.

Most of the cells tested were sent in by others. I think they have under 100 cycles on them, but don't know for sure. This information is possible through the collaborative efforts of the CPF community, of which I am very grateful. I make an effort to control the variables within my control, but there are some that I have not control over. In spite of the fact that there are some uncontrolled variables, I believe this testing gives a valuable snapshot of how various cells perform under different load conditions.

Tom


----------



## Codeman

Whoops - nevermind...


----------



## hotdjdave

*Duracell 2650 mAh*

Sorry, I meant to write Duracell 2650 mAh.

PS. I just moved, so unfortunately all my "spare" batteries are in a box somewhere.


----------



## paulsl

Hi Tom,

I've been around for about a month on CPF and am having a great time and spending money on my new hobby. 

I ordered and recently received 24 Tenergy 2600 AA's that I have yet to open or use. They have a really good price but I'm concerned about the inconsistency you experienced 2 years ago. It also seems that now some have found them to hold their charge longer than most. I wonder if their performance has improved. Has it to your knowledge? Maybe a test is in order?

Price/performance ratio is important but I don't want poor cells in my HW's. 

I will PM you some additional thoughts.

Regards,

Pablo


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Pablo,

While the NiMh Shoot Out thread started two years ago, the Tenergy information came during the last few months.

At this time I have some people sending me additional cells for testing, as well as some new cells to compare them with. I am not sure why there is such a difference in the test results, but I am continuing to look into it. There are cases where a bad batch of cells gets through, this may just be related to something like that.

At any rate, thank you for your offer. If I still am confused at the end of this next round of testing, I will be back in touch with you. A broader sample may help get things back into perspective.

Tom


----------



## SilverFox

Update:

The test data for the Titanium 2700 mAh cells has been added to the first post.

Tom


----------



## len

I'm surprised the Powerex 2700 hasn't been covered in this test. I would love to see how they fared against the highly rated Sanyo 2700. I have nothing but great result using these nimh batt in my high drain GPSr.


----------



## TorchBoy

I'm disappointed there aren't more test results for AAA cells.


----------



## Leathermanwave

SilverFox said:


> I have some Duracell 2650 cells


Then why are they not in the test
Thanks for all the info about the other batteries.:goodjob::thanks::twothumbs


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Leathermanwave,

I thought I had some Duracell 2650 mAh cells, but when I checked them they are 2400 mAh cells.

I guess I don't have any of the 2650 mAh cells.

Tom


----------



## Codeman

SilverFox said:


> Hello Leatghermanwave,
> 
> I thought I had some Duracell 2650 mAh cells, but when I checked them they are 2400 mAh cells.
> 
> I guess I don't have any of the 2650 mAh cells.
> 
> Tom



Want some to test?

Congrats on reaching 7000 posts!


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Ray,

Sure...

Tom


----------



## Codeman

I'll get them in the mail to you in the next day or so. They've had a forming charge via my Maha 9000, and about 5-10 cycles put on them, so they should be good for testing.


----------



## Leathermanwave

SilverFox said:


> Hello Leatghermanwave,


Your spellcheck doesn't know how to spell Leathermanwave.


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Leathermanwave,

Oops...  I will correct that...

Tom


----------



## wintermute

I don't understand why this thread isn't a sticky...we need to bump it every once in a while to keep it on the first page. With the search engine all screwy - trying to tell someone to find the thread is a pain...

Sticky this thread...please!!!

There is no better NiMH battery reference anywhere on the internet...ever!!

Does anyone agree that the battery shootout threads should be stickies??


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Wintermute,

At the top of the page is this thread which serves as a sticky for several reference threads of interest.

Tom


----------



## TorchBoy

I will say it needs more AAA cells. Tom? Please?


----------



## sid_post

AAA tests would be very nice. However, I think most people are using AA for MP3 players, cameras, and flashlights. In my case, AAA are mainly for remote controls to DVD players, TV's, etc. so, rather then capacity I'm really interested in discharge rates with low use over long periods of time.


----------



## Jiffy

Agreed. I'm using AAA cells for GPS, laser, headtorch, torch and other things so I'd appreciate more info on them. I think I'm going to be buying some Sanyo ones soon.


----------



## dreamfly

I am using AAAs for my headlamps for night fishing. There are many AAA headlamps being used so a test will be very helpful.


----------



## SilverFox

Update:

I added some data from Duracell 2400 and 2650 mAh tests.

I will have to see if I can find some AAA cells, or test results that I have not posted on AAA cells.

Tom


----------



## Mr Happy

SilverFox said:


> Rick88 sent me some X1 cells to check out. I am not sure who makes these cell, but they did pretty well. Thanks, and sorry it took so long to get them back to you.



I have some of the same X1 cells. Mine perform very badly now, but I think perhaps I damaged them by running them down to zero volts in a flashlight before I knew I shouldn't do that. 

X1 (or XG -- they can't make their mind up) is the brand name of Spike (Changzhou) Electronics, Ltd. in China. You can find some of their products in Fry's, or on-line here: http://www.x1up.com

They have some interesting chargers, which I think I will start another thread about.


----------



## TorchBoy

SilverFox said:


> I will have to see if I can find some AAA cells, or test results that I have not posted on AAA cells.


Yay!


----------



## Tigerotor77W

My Powerex 2300s are starting to die (losing charge within a couple of days of charging them with the Maha 204) -- based on the reading I've done [here], are the Sanyo's a safe bet for replacement -- or is it hit or miss, depending on location of manufacture? Would the Powerex 2500s be a more consistent bet?


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Tigerotor77W,

I would suggest avoiding 2500 mAh cells by all manufacturers and re-labelers.

Beyond that, you will have to study the test data and pick a brand that meets your expectations. Both Sanyo and Powerex are strong performers.

Tom


----------



## Tigerotor77W

Thanks for the reply. I meant 2700 mAh rather than 2500... but your point was taken. Given my situation... I may just bite the bullet and try a set of Sanyos and see how they go. Can I assume that the Eneloops are compatible with my Maha? (I'm a complete newb when it comes to batteries... it's been a while since I've been the Battery University.)

And I might as well add some more questions while I'm here. I read that if the Eneloops work especially well if I don't leave my batteries charged 100% of the time. When I first got my Powerex 2300s (about two years ago), they held their charge quite well -- I could come back to them after a month of inactivity and could still get a good number of shots out of them. (I should note here that my use for these NiMHs is in a digital camera.) Recently, this summer, I'd say, they no longer hold their charge -- to the point where I can't even turn on my camera if I leave them out after charging them fully. For a person who isn't using the rechargeables everyday, would the Eneloops make more sense, or should I stick with my Powerexs? Should I top off the Eneloops before I plan to use them heavily (a full weekend's worth of shooting, for instance)? It sounds to me like I could get away with buying a pair of each -- use the Eneloops for unexpected (out of the blue) excursions, and use the Powerex for pre-mediated trips where I'll have fully charged them anyhow. Ultimately, though, the question of whether topping off Eneloops still stands either way.


And on a sidenote -- Bellingham, eh? I was in Seattle (interning at Boeing) this summer, and absolutely fell in love with the PNW. Granted I didn't see much of the rain that racks the region in all other seasons... but I utterly fell in love with Mt. Rainier.


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe

I have come to REALLY appreciate Eneloops, Hybrids and Kodaks. I don't have or use a high end AA camera, but do run Hybrids in one light and use LSDNimH in my GPS every day. They run the GPS longer than I remember 2500s doing before they crapped out.

I don't charge as often as I used to either. I have 4x8 cases of LSD and the GPS uses two each day. I charge about every other week for that application.

I'd readily say Eneloops or Hybrids or even Kodaks would do your camera right!

EDIT: I don't know about the Maha charger as I don't have one. I use the Duracell 4 place with seperate segmented charge indicators and the charger that came with 4 Eneloop at Walmart to do the charging. I don't think my C Crane Quick Charger would harm them in any way either.


----------



## Mr Happy

I've been using Eneloops in my digital camera (a Canon A620) and I've been really pleased with them. A freshly charged set will take hundreds of pictures, and more importantly I can pick up the camera after months without touching it and it will still power up fine and take pictures. I never bother to specially charge the batteries before using the camera now, I just leave one set of Eneloops in it and tuck a spare set in my pocket just in case.

Regular NiMH cells just won't do that. I have a pair of brand new Energizer 2500s that I charged and put to one side for two months. When I tested them this weekend they were completely discharged. Considering they only manage about 2200 mAh when fresh of the charger, I'd say they are completely obsolete.


----------



## Tigerotor77W

Thanks for both replies. Sounds like I might be okay with just the Eneloops. Maybe I'll go with eight cells and use four as backup (replacing the four alkalines I currently use in that role)?

Mr. Happy -- if you have something planned (a trip to the mountains, say), would you top-off the Eneloops or just take them as is?

Are Eneloops meant to be drained completely before being charged (are they memory-less)? 

And can anyone confirm whether the Maha C204FW would work as a charger for the Eneloops?


----------



## Mr Happy

Tigerotor77W said:


> Thanks for both replies. Sounds like I might be okay with just the Eneloops. Maybe I'll go with eight cells and use four as backup (replacing the four alkalines I currently use in that role)?


Yes, a spare set of rechargeables sounds like a good plan. You should figure out how many pictures your camera can take on a fresh set and plan accordingly. Cameras vary a lot in how long they will last on one set of batteries. If you take lots of pictures and your camera eats batteries you may need three sets.

Incidentally, for an emergency backup a set of four Energizer lithiums could be a better bet than alkalines. They work better in cameras than alkalines, have a very long shelf life, and are lighter too.



> Mr. Happy -- if you have something planned (a trip to the mountains, say), would you top-off the Eneloops or just take them as is?


Sure I would -- be prepared and all that. I'd top off the spare set too. But for casual picture taking closer to home I don't sweat it all that much.



> Are Eneloops meant to be drained completely before being charged (are they memory-less)?


Doesn't make much difference. The only problem with topping up partly drained NiMH cells is that _some_ fast chargers may not end the charge at the right time and _may_ cook the batteries.



> And can anyone confirm whether the Maha C204FW would work as a charger for the Eneloops?


It will work fine. Eneloops don't need a special charger, any good quality charger can be used.


----------



## Tigerotor77W

Cool; thanks! 

Is the definition of a fast-charger like a 15 minute charger? Or is "fast" anything shorter than 24 hours?


----------



## Mr Happy

I think "fast" is not really a precise technical term, but usually a "fast" charger is thought of as one that takes from 1 to 4 hours. Anything less than 1 hour, like a 15 minute charger, is more likely to be called a "super-fast" charger.

The difference is that a 1 to 4 hour charge with a good quality smart charger is probably the optimum for maximum cell life. A 15 minute charge time is fantastic for convenience, but it may shorten the life of the cells.

(Edit: on re-reading my post above, I guess I was lumping fast and super-fast chargers together. And super-fast chargers may have the greatest risk of damaging partly drained cells.)


----------



## Tigerotor77W

Many thanks. 

Eneloops (4-pack) were $9.16 yesterday on Amazon... today, they're up to over $13. I may give it a few days to see if they'll come back down, but I'll certainly give them a try and see how it goes. 

Appreciate everyone's help... didn't mean to hijack this page.


----------



## 1080P

Brighteyez said:


> Hmmm .... Methinks that someone else bought a bunch of those crummy things from Fry's when they were just short of giving away those 10 packs with those stupid Egg chargers?. If it's of any consolation, mine behaved in the same manner, charge 'em and use 'em right away or lose it.
> 
> Want a couple of Egg chargers? Haven't opened them so I don't know if they work ...



My LenMars seem to do much better in the cooler months here in So Cal remembering that they were charged up... it's the hot summer months of August and September that they go flat mighty fast without use. Might have something to do with the humidity.

Would like to find some strong AAA's though that do well hot.


----------



## BentHeadTX

1080P said:


> Would like to find some strong AAA's though that do well hot.



I use Sanyo Eneloops in my L0D Q4 keychain light and it works very well even when sitting in my warm pocket all day (I am a mammal) Have a KD SSC-U AAA light that tortures the single AAA Eneloop with 20 minutes of runtime. No problems with it's occasional use. My bicycle rear flasher uses two Eneloops and runs solid red light for 15 hours a month and it works well in that roll.

So far, the Eneloop AAA holds the charge, handles very high discharge rates and lower rates without problems. They seem to work better than my Powerex 1000mAH cells although those cells work very well also.


----------



## TorchBoy

BentHeadTX said:


> My *bicycle* rear flasher uses two Eneloops and runs solid red light for 15 hours a month and it works well in that *roll*.


Ha ha. Very punny. :thumbsup:


----------



## BlackDecker

Tigerotor77W said:


> Many thanks.
> 
> Eneloops (4-pack) were $9.16 yesterday on Amazon... today, they're up to over $13. I may give it a few days to see if they'll come back down, but I'll certainly give them a try and see how it goes.
> 
> Appreciate everyone's help... didn't mean to hijack this page.



Don't bother with mail order... Circuit City stores are selling 8 pack Sanyo Eneloop AA's for $14.96. No rebate/coupon required.


----------



## LuxLuthor

BlackDecker said:


> Don't bother with mail order... Circuit City stores are selling 8 pack Sanyo Eneloop AA's for $14.96. No rebate/coupon required.



Amazon does have them still at $9.19 and can get free shipping if you don't have a Circuit City nearby. The two nearest CC's to me do not have this special priced 8 pack item.


----------



## Mr Happy

LuxLuthor said:


> The two nearest CC's to me do not have this special priced 8 pack item.


That's a disappointment. Are they out of stock, or do they not have the special price? When I bought some they were marked $19.99 on the shelf, but rang up $14.96 at the checkout.


----------



## servaas

1080P said:


> My LenMars seem to do much better in the cooler months here in So Cal remembering that they were charged up... it's the hot summer months of August and September that they go flat mighty fast without use. Might have something to do with the humidity.
> 
> Would like to find some strong AAA's though that do well hot.



NiMH discharge rates are directly related to temperature. Higher temps cause faster discharge. NEVER leave them in a car in the summer! Get yourself some low discharge AAA's to cope better with the hot weather.


----------



## servaas

Mr Happy said:


> I've been using Eneloops in my digital camera (a Canon A620) and I've been really pleased with them. A freshly charged set will take hundreds of pictures, and more importantly I can pick up the camera after months without touching it and it will still power up fine and take pictures. I never bother to specially charge the batteries before using the camera now, I just leave one set of Eneloops in it and tuck a spare set in my pocket just in case.
> 
> Regular NiMH cells just won't do that. I have a pair of brand new Energizer 2500s that I charged and put to one side for two months. When I tested them this weekend they were completely discharged. Considering they only manage about 2200 mAh when fresh of the charger, I'd say they are completely obsolete.


I have been testing the low discharge Powerex Imedions in my Pentax K100D for the last few weeks, and the 1 year old set of Powerex 2700's that are normally used have been put aside for a month. Out of interest, I discharged them in the MH-C9000 and found they still had 84% capacity remaining. So after 33 days, they had only lost 16% capacity. Pretty good, but nowhere near as good as eneloops or Imedions. 

Tigerotor77W, I think you will be very happy with low discharge batteries for your photography, eneloop or the new Maha Powerex IMEDIONS. Their discharge curve suits the application very well.


----------



## JCup

Amazon also has 8 packs of AA Eneloops for $15. Free shipping, but not sure that applies to all buyers. See:
http://www.amazon.com/review/product/B000LNI5VC/ref=cm_cr_pr_link_next_2?_encoding=UTF8&pageNumber=2


----------



## SilverFox

Update:

I have added graphs for the RayOVac Hybrid AA and AAA cells, thanks Andy, and for the GP ReCyko AA cells, thanks Jyrki.

Tom


----------



## Black Rose

Here is a set of completely unscientific results on some LSD AA & AAA NiMh packs I just opened.

These results are from my el-cheapo battery tester, so not overly accurate (my MH-C9000 is supposed to be delivered today  ). 

The other night I picked up four 4-packs of ROV Hybrids (2 AA and 2 AAA). Today I tracked down some clearance Eneloop AAs.

The Eneloops were marked 2006-08. The Hybrids have no date codes that I can see other than the 2006 copyright on the packaging.

All of the Eneloops registered right between the O's in Good on the battery tester. All of the Hybrids registered low enough that they need to be recharged.

Like I said, not overly scientific but really shows how well the Eneloops hold their charge.


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe

Maybe this ain't the right thread but:

Stopped at Frys on the Southwest Fwy. (US 59) just outside the beltway.

After checking out the flashlights and finding nothing of major interest at my level of finance I checked the battery aisle.

I grabbed a 4 pack of Uniross Hybrio AAs.

Here at home the Craftsman 82141 MM all 4 showed 9.6x Flash amps and exactly 1.30V

Seem to be very well matched. Will put 'em through a bowling night cycle in my GPS.


----------



## batvette

FWIW I have been on the rechargeables bandwagon for 20+ years, the first AA rechargeables I got in the '80's were 8 ni-cads that came with an RC car from ToysRus. I destroyed that $200 car in one weekend but the batteries lasted for a few years. Anyway I've seen this industry come a long way and when the low discharge Nimh were announced I jumped right on the first few packs of ROV Hybrid AA's and AAA's I found at Target. A few months later I saw the Eneloop set at Costco (about 6-8 mos ago?) and picked it up too. 
Based upon my observations I personally recommend passing on the ROV hybrids, they just didn't seem to deliver the advertised 4x less self discharge, maybe half that at best. I have $5 analog battery meter used to check 'em before and after using,(I have a fluke 87 and 4 other meters, but won't drag em out for this..) to get some perspective on how they held charges on the shelf- and in contrast the Eneloop IS THE REAL DEAL folks, finally I can put rechargeable AA's in the wall clock, the glovebox flashlight. the alarm clock, TV remote, all those formerly taboo applications. 
Moreover I feel the Eneloops will last a lot longer as I no longer have the need to cook a set of batteries topping them off more than they need just to get a near full capacity cell. 
I think after purchasing hundreds of rechargeables we have finally reached close to perfection in this little pain in the *** part of life. 
Now if only we can put those retailers who hide them every year for a month before Christmas out of business...

(If I can take a shot at Sanyo to counter my adoring love for them, you shoulda saved the plastic and fired the guy who came up with the idea of the C and D sleeves in the Costco pack. I'd have paid for the D's if they were next to them, the sleeves are just roundfilin's....)


----------



## flashlight

batvette, could you explain why low-discharge cells like the eneloop are suitable for things like clocks & remotes instead of the recommended carbon-zinc cells like Eveready Super Heavy Duty cells?

Any test results for the Imedion 2100mAh low-discharge cells from Maha?


----------



## santza

Silverfox

Are you intrested in testing Varta's power accu 2700mAh AA and Ready2use 2100mAh AA? I think these are only available here in europe but i can send you two packs of each if you are intrested? The 2700mAh Varta AA and 1000mAh AAA won a test in german computer magazine:
http://www.en.varta-consumer.com/content.php?path=/1197562912.html&&domain=www.en.varta-consumer.com
quoted from varta's website:
According to the performance test of the German computer magazine "CHIP" the best rechargeable batteries are from VARTA. In the test of the October edtion of the magazine the accus AA (2700 mAh) and AAA (1000 mAh) are ranked first. A total of 52 rechargeable batteries of different battery suppliers were tested with regards to capacity and self discharge. The batteries from VARTA are not only very powerful but also have the lowest self discharge rate of all tested products. VARTA's investment in top quality pays off once more!

Best regards, Santza


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Santza,

PM sent...

Tom


----------



## Ziemas

santza said:


> Silverfox
> 
> Are you intrested in testing Varta's power accu 2700mAh AA and Ready2use 2100mAh AA? I think these are only available here in europe but i can send you two packs of each if you are intrested? The 2700mAh Varta AA and 1000mAh AAA won a test in german computer magazine:
> http://www.en.varta-consumer.com/content.php?path=/1197562912.html&&domain=www.en.varta-consumer.com
> quoted from varta's website:
> According to the performance test of the German computer magazine "CHIP" the best rechargeable batteries are from VARTA. In the test of the October edtion of the magazine the accus AA (2700 mAh) and AAA (1000 mAh) are ranked first. A total of 52 rechargeable batteries of different battery suppliers were tested with regards to capacity and self discharge. The batteries from VARTA are not only very powerful but also have the lowest self discharge rate of all tested products. VARTA's investment in top quality pays off once more!
> 
> Best regards, Santza


How much are the Varta Professional 2700 in Helsinki? Here in Riga they are very expensive at 10 euro ($15.67) for two.


----------



## MorePower

santza said:


> Silverfox
> 
> Are you intrested in testing Varta's power accu 2700mAh AA and Ready2use 2100mAh AA? I think these are only available here in europe but i can send you two packs of each if you are intrested? The 2700mAh Varta AA and 1000mAh AAA won a test in german computer magazine:
> http://www.en.varta-consumer.com/content.php?path=/1197562912.html&&domain=www.en.varta-consumer.com
> quoted from varta's website:
> According to the performance test of the German computer magazine "CHIP" the best rechargeable batteries are from VARTA. In the test of the October edtion of the magazine the accus AA (2700 mAh) and AAA (1000 mAh) are ranked first. A total of 52 rechargeable batteries of different battery suppliers were tested with regards to capacity and self discharge. The batteries from VARTA are not only very powerful but also have the lowest self discharge rate of all tested products. VARTA's investment in top quality pays off once more!
> 
> Best regards, Santza



I wouldn't bother sending the Ready2Use cells; they are exactly the same as the already tested Rayovac Hybrids.


----------



## RoyJ

flashlight said:


> batvette, could you explain why low-discharge cells like the eneloop are suitable for things like clocks & remotes instead of the recommended carbon-zinc cells like Eveready Super Heavy Duty cells?
> 
> Any test results for the Imedion 2100mAh low-discharge cells from Maha?


 
Personally I see it as a total waste to put such quality cells (5 - 10 amp sustainable) in a wall clock.

Also, I don't think carbon-zinzs are ever "recommended" any more unless the companies have some sort of affliation with eachother. Alkalines are nearly perfect for low-drain devices like clocks.


----------



## santza

Ziemas said:


> How much are the Varta Professional 2700 in Helsinki? Here in Riga they are very expensive at 10 euro ($15.67) for two.



I havent seen varta professional in retail stores, I think they are sold to industrial sector only. But I can ask price for those from varta's sales representative, since I am a retailer. There shouldnt be a big performance difference between professional2700 and "consumer sold" power accu2700 according to this test:
http://www.chip.de/artikel/Megatest-Akkus-fuer-Digicams-und-MP3-Player-AA-AAA-5_29020749.html
Can someone who understands german please make a conclusion of this test in english?

varta power accu 2700 mAh AA price in helsinki varies from 15 to 20 EUR per package of 4 cells, are you intrested in buying? I can sell you with discount prices for packages of 10 packs = 40 cells.

Please note! according to chip magazine's test, varta 2700 mAh AA, beats eneloop in self discharge rate test for 10 days
Varta discharge in 10 days = 6,2%
Eneloop discharge = 6,7%

Silverfox

Can you also make a 30 days self discharge test for both 2100mAh Ready2Use and 2700mAh power accu?


----------



## flashlight

RoyJ said:


> Personally I see it as a total waste to put such quality cells (5 - 10 amp sustainable) in a wall clock.
> 
> Also, I don't think carbon-zinzs are ever "recommended" any more unless the companies have some sort of affliation with eachother. Alkalines are nearly perfect for low-drain devices like clocks.



Well, they are rechargeable & they should last a long time so why not?

I meant I thought it was common advice not to put alkalines in clocks as they were 'too powerful' and may damage the movement? :shrug:


----------



## lengendcpf

flashlight said:


> Well, they are rechargeable & they should last a long time so why not?
> 
> I meant I thought it was common advice not to put alkalines in clocks as they were 'too powerful' and may damage the movement? :shrug:


 
Hi, I am from Singapore too.
I too got that advice regarding don't put energizer/duracell in those cheapo clocks.
Totally crap.
It's the clock that is lousy.
Cause I follow the advice, the clock still fails after few months..

Last time, my clocks can last more than 10 years and still working.
Nowadays, maybe due to costs cutting, the product got low QC or even no QC.

Just to share something "new"

I went to buy an alarm clock with dual sounds.
1. Muscial chime
2. Striking the bell.
Found the clock, when reached the alarm time, with muscial chime is ok, bu with striking bell, I have to tap it to get it to sound. I ask myself, what use is it if I have to wake the alarm clock myself, isn't it suppose to be the other way round?

Went back to exchange for a new clock.
Tested it, the chime and the striking bell, all working perfectly.
Went back happily, but found the the second hand on the clock is not moving, basically, the clock is NOT telling time..


----------



## flashlight

lengendcpf said:


> Hi, I am from Singapore too.
> I too got that advice regarding don't put energizer/duracell in those cheapo clocks.
> Totally crap.
> It's the clock that is lousy.
> Cause I follow the advice, the clock still fails after few months..
> 
> Last time, my clocks can last more than 10 years and still working.
> Nowadays, maybe due to costs cutting, the product got low QC or even no QC.
> 
> Just to share something "new"
> 
> I went to buy an alarm clock with dual sounds.
> 1. Muscial chime
> 2. Striking the bell.
> Found the clock, when reached the alarm time, with muscial chime is ok, bu with striking bell, I have to tap it to get it to sound. I ask myself, what use is it if I have to wake the alarm clock myself, isn't it suppose to be the other way round?
> 
> Went back to exchange for a new clock.
> Tested it, the chime and the striking bell, all working perfectly.
> Went back happily, but found the the second hand on the clock is not moving, basically, the clock is NOT telling time..




Hey thanks for the info. (Guess we could start a whole new thread on the subject!  )

I suppose we should stick to the 'trusted' brands & do our research, just like with NiMh cells.


----------



## santza

Here is a chart from chip magazine. Maybe someone from germany can translate this in english.


----------



## Bones

santza said:


> Here is a chart from chip magazine. Maybe someone from germany can translate this in english.



I ran the self-discharge page throught Babelfish, and this is the result:



> Self discharge: Leistungspotenzial verpufft unused
> 
> Another topic, which the user in the eye must keep, is the self discharge. Electro-chemical processes in the Akku* live continuously at its capacity, even if he is not in use up to complete unloading. That happens independently of the type with all Akkus, but in different speed.
> 
> Faster empty than meant: Up to 40 per cent is lost to the achievement through self discharge.
> Two extremes: The test winner Varta 2700 loses six per cent of his charge in ten days, is nearly still fully operational also*. With the Sony 2500 at place 27 against it verpuffen in the same time over 41 per cent.
> 
> The other AA types lie in between broadly strewn. It looks similar in the AAA parliamentary group: The range reaches from high 24 per cent for the GP Akku up to the first-class Varta power Accu with only one per cent self discharge in ten days. Similarly well: Tecxus 1000 and X4 energy 950. The substantially smaller self discharge is by the way the reason, why batteries are more meaningful sometimes than Akkus. With a battery set for instance remote maintenance gets along for many years. Akkus would have made equivalent repeated in this time schlapp.
> 
> Many manufacturers try to defuse the self discharge problem by developing new materials, which are to reduce the charge loss. That is then offered marketing-moderately cannibalized Akkus with small self discharge, already cited, with notes such as ready to tons use and the like. _Example Sanyo: Their eneloop Akkus is to be able to hold still 85 per cent of the charge according to manufacturer after one year. Completely the promise cannot be kept however: With seven per cent self discharge in ten Tagen* is the Sanyo eneloop noticeably below the average one year shelf-life is however clearly too optimistically set_.
> 
> Panasonic, Compit and others offer similar types on with comparable results. With AAA Akkus however it folds correctly well, the mentioned Model*le of Varta, Tecxus and X4 is the impressive proof for it.


It appears they based their self-discharge rating on a ten day test; claiming the Eneloop lost seven percent of its capacity in that time.

They also appear to have extrapolated the Eneloop's self-discharge rate for a one year period based on the results of their ten day test.

Although the methodology used for the long term discharge rating is fairly indicative that the author lacked any real knowledge on this topic, I am also at a loss to explain the Eneloop's seven percent loss of capacity after just ten days.

Here are the Babelfish and Google translations, you should be able to click-throught the whole article using the appropriate hyper-links.

The Eneloop blurb's italic font was added by me.


----------



## shadowjk

My vaguely educated guess at the chart columns:

Ranking
Name/Picture
Price
Overall Value (score?)
Capacity (60%) (0 - 100 score?)
Self discharge (40%) (0 - 100 score?)
Price/value - Gut = good. Don't know about the others.
Nominal capacity
Measured Capacity
Self discharge 10 days
Cost per amphours


10 day self discharge is kinda short, I'd think...


----------



## Bones

santza said:


> Here is a chart from chip magazine. Maybe someone from germany can translate this in english.



Curiosity got the better of me, so here are the (mostly) Google translations for the chart:


> Akkus: Batteries
> Wertungen: Ratings
> Messwerte: Measured values
> 
> Rang: Rank
> Name/Produktfoto: Name/Product image
> Preis (ca): Price (ca)
> Gesamtwertung: Rating
> Kapazitat (60%): Capacity (60%)
> Selbstentladung (40%): Self-discharge (40%)
> Preis/Leistung: Price/Performance
> Nominelle kapazitat (mAh): Nominal capacity
> Gemessene kapazitat (mAh): Measured capacity
> Selbstentladung 10 tage: Self-discharge 10 days
> Kosten pro ampere-stunde: Cost per ampere-hours
> 
> Gut: Good
> Sehr gut: Very good
> Befriendigend: ?
> Ausreichend: Enough/Sufficiently
> Mangelhaft: Inadequate


I've been trying to determine what the

I note that even the even the Energizer 2500 out-ranked the Eneloop, by eight places.


----------



## TorchBoy

Would a sensible consumer, if they thought about it, actually put low self discharge as a higher priority than capacity? (Depending on their application.) Does a typical consumer buy just on price or the claimed capacity, and so when their Energizer 2500 cells go high self discharge (after a dozen cycles) do they simply stop using them and go back to ongoing purchases of Energizer alkalines? Or do they start asking questions and find something that'll actually work long term?

How would a CPFer allot the relative values of capacity and self discharge? Someone want to start a poll on that?


----------



## flashlight

TorchBoy said:


> Would a sensible consumer, if they thought about it, actually put low self discharge as a higher priority than capacity? (Depending on their application.) Does a typical consumer buy just on price or the claimed capacity, and so when their Energizer 2500 cells go high self discharge (after a dozen cycles) do they simply stop using them and go back to ongoing purchases of Energizer alkalines? Or do they start asking questions and find something that'll actually work long term?
> 
> How would a CPFer allot the relative values of capacity and self discharge? Someone want to start a poll on that?



Those sound like high school exam questions!  But very pertinent indeed though.


----------



## shadowjk

My guess is that they go back to alkalines and start putting them into the charger they bought for their nimh.


----------



## jasonck08

Hi there SilverFox, thank you so much for all of these tests. it has been about 20 days since your last update, and I'm quite curious how the GP ReCyko stack up against the Sanyo Eneloops. Does anyone know?

Also, after looking at the charts, it appears that just about any GP, Sanyo, or Energizer does reasonably well with 5amp's of load. These are the 3 easy to find brands in Taiwan. So I'll end up getting either some cheap GP, Sanyo or Energizers or perhaps some GP ReCyko or Sanyo Eneloops. Thanks!


----------



## Raymond

About the chip online test: I think the way they tested the batteries is probably correct for the way the batteries are used. They claim to test the batteries for use with digicams. They test the AA-capacity with a 400mA discharge current, which they say would be typical for a digicam (I trust that's correct, I'm not really familiar with digicams that use AA's). They also test self-discharge after 10 days. I think for the intended use, that makes sense. Digicams go through their batteries fast, and usually their use is "planned": vacations, trips, special occasions etc. So you often charge the batteries in advance, but shortly before the planned use. I think 10 days makes sense. 
They also use a professional charger/analyzer, the cadex 7200. If they followed the correct procedures, I trust that their measured results are correct. 
So that the eneloops gave a 6.7% discharge in the first 10 days is disappointing, and for me a little unexpected, after all the rave reviews here on CPF.

Also, keep in mind that there's a clear top3 (2 varta's and a sanyo) and that numbers 4-25 are very close together. Sometimes is just the price that responsible for a large difference in overall score (just look at the difference between #6 and #18: 20mAh and 0.3% discharge, which is hardly measurable).

So for the intended purpose of this test, I think it's a good test. The results just don't translate well to flashlight use. Discharge currents are often higher in flashlights (my modest romisen RC-A3 has 3x the discharge current that's used in this test), and they're used differently. Selfdischarge after 10 days is not really relevant. Self-discharge (or should I say capacity?) after 2 months is much more interesting to know, if you need a light when you've blown a fuse at night


----------



## Black Rose

There is another test on here about the Eneloops that show they lose the most power in the first 30 days and then lose less as time goes by. The 60 and 90 day tests showed lower levels of loss.


----------



## UnknownVT

Raymond said:


> So that the eneloops gave a 6.7% discharge in the first 10 days is disappointing, and for me a little unexpected, after all the rave reviews here on CPF.


 
That figure does seem very high.

But all NiMH have their fastest discharge initially - 
and LSDs (which are basically still NiMH) do so as well - 
but LSD discharge slows down significantly so that eneloops claims retention of 85%, or loss of only 15% after one year - 
compared to regular NiMH which can lose all of their useful charge in about 3 months or less.

However for more relevant information please read SilverFox's thread -

Eneloop Self Discharge study


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Raymond,

While the Eneloop cells may have a 6.7% self discharge in capacity over 10 days, that only increases to 7.2% over 30 days. I don't think the 2700 mAh cells do quite as good as that.

Tom


----------



## Mr Happy

Raymond said:


> About the chip online test: I think the way they tested the batteries is probably correct for the way the batteries are used. They claim to test the batteries for use with digicams. They test the AA-capacity with a 400mA discharge current, which they say would be typical for a digicam (I trust that's correct, I'm not really familiar with digicams that use AA's). They also test self-discharge after 10 days. I think for the intended use, that makes sense. Digicams go through their batteries fast, and usually their use is "planned": vacations, trips, special occasions etc. So you often charge the batteries in advance, but shortly before the planned use. I think 10 days makes sense.


Unlike a flashlight, digicams do not have a constant current load. There is a small load when switched on and operating the LCD, but intermittent very heavy loads when writing a photograph to memory and recharging the flash. It is these heavy loads that cause voltage sag in alkalines and is the reason alkalines do not do well in digicams. A 400 mA discharge test may approximate the discharge rate in digicams when averaged over time, but it does not represent actual usage.

I often pick up my camera to take a few pictures without forward planning. I therefore expect it to work immediately and would not have time to charge the batteries in advance. Consequently the self discharge rate over many months is more important to me than just 10 days.


----------



## Raymond

SilverFox said:


> Hello Raymond,
> 
> While the Eneloop cells may have a 6.7% self discharge in capacity over 10 days, that only increases to 7.2% over 30 days. I don't think the 2700 mAh cells do quite as good as that.



I know, I thought I said that  
It's just that the people that did this test chose 10 days as their criterium (probably because they thought that this was something that related to reality, and of course because they don't have time to do a 3 month discharge test  ). And there's no getting around the fact that the eneloops lost almost 7% of their charge in that time. Consider their reasoning: a varta 2700mAh battery has a capacity of 2363mAh after 10 days, a sanyo eneloop has 1754mAh after 10 days, but the eneloop costs €0,25 more per battery. I think that recommending that Varta over the Eneloop would make sense for a lot of users. 



MR Happy said:


> Unlike a flashlight, digicams do not have a constant current load. There is a small load when switched on and operating the LCD, but intermittent very heavy loads when writing a photograph to memory and recharging the flash. It is these heavy loads that cause voltage sag in alkalines and is the reason alkalines do not do well in digicams. A 400 mA discharge test may approximate the discharge rate in digicams when averaged over time, but it does not represent actual usage.
> 
> I often pick up my camera to take a few pictures without forward planning. I therefore expect it to work immediately and would not have time to charge the batteries in advance. Consequently the self discharge rate over many months is more important to me than just 10 days.



I agree about the intermittent heavy loads placed on the battery. I think they should have adressed this in their test. Just like they should have pointed out the differences between LSD and "normal" nimh's, so readers could base their decision on what battery to buy on the way they use their camera. Because like you said, there are also a lot of people who use their camera irregurarly and without forward planning. They would be a lot better off with LSD cells (or with a camara that has it's own li-ion battery!). 

The test is not perfect, but I don't think they're completely wrong either. They chose a specific set of criteria to test with, and I still think that those criteria make sense. It's always up to the individual to make their own decisions. But if someone bases his choice on the results of this test, I don't think he would make a wrong one. I think the top3 of that list would make very good digicam batteries. It's just that they have the typical high discharge rate of regular nimh cells.


----------



## Bones

Raymond said:


> The test is not perfect, but I don't think they're completely wrong either. They chose a specific set of criteria to test with, and I still think that those criteria make sense. It's always up to the individual to make their own decisions. But if someone bases his choice on the results of this test, I don't think he would make a wrong one. I think the top3 of that list would make very good digicam batteries. It's just that they have the typical high discharge rate of regular nimh cells.



Admittedly, it is difficult to fault the magazine's actual test results since they were based on a completely subjective criteria, but there can be little doubt that for every week their test period could have been extended, the worse their top picks would have fared.

Further, there can be no doubt that they committed a major blunder by extrapolating the the self-discharge rate of the Eneloop after one year based on its self-discharge rate after 10 days; to wit:



Bones said:


> _Akkus is to be able to hold still 85 per cent of the charge according to manufacturer after one year. Completely the promise cannot be kept however: With seven per cent self discharge in ten Tagen* is the Sanyo eneloop noticeably below the average one year shelf-life is however clearly too optimistically set_.



I have yet to see a real-world test that didn't substantiate Sanyo's claim that the Eneloop will retain 85% of its charge after one year.

Admittedly, there have be fluctuations, but there are also very few dwellings that I am aware of where the summer temperature doesn't rise well above the constant 20°C used by Sanyo, which would adversely effect the test results.

As well, it is highly unlikely that there would be a corresponding decrease in the ambient temperture since the thermostats in most dwellings are set to engage the heating system at about 20°C.

Excerpted from a message received at stefanv.com from a Mr. Taetow, Vice President General Affairs at SANYO Component Europe GmbH:



> 1. The Eneloop batteries are sold charged, but not necessarily 100% fully charged. In Europe we charge them about 75%. I am not sure to which degree they are charged before being sold in Canada. Thus it is rather vague to estimate the discharge rate by calculating backwards to the production date. Also, the storage conditions (transport, warehouse, shop, etc.) are unknown (see point 3 below).
> 
> 2. Several long term tests have shown that the self-discharge rate decreases over time. This means that Eneloop batteries discharge relatively fast at the beginning and relatively slower the longer you store them. To get real (long-term) test results, you have to store them and wait. An estimation of long-term discharge rate by extrapolating short term storage results is not correct and leads to rather poor results. This may explain the differences you have seen.
> 
> 3. Storage temperature is of high importance if you measure self-discharge rate. Higher temperatures substantially increase self-discharging. It is best to store Eneloops as cool as possible to keep the charge in the battery. As a rule-of-thumb, every 10°C increase in storage temperature is equivalent to doubling the storage time. Some R/C pilots in Europe put Eneloops in the freezer, with rather good results.



Had they chosen a broader test criteria, and taken the time to determine the Enleloop's actual self-discharge traits, there is a good possibility their readership would now be aware of just how superior the Eneloop is outside of the magazine's narrowly defined purpose, and accordingly be well on their way to foregoing alkalines.

I am also mindful of the well-documented tendency for the vast majority of high-capacity NiMH cells to develop exceeding high self-discharge rates after comparatively little time in service.

It is in consideration of these two factors that I feel the magazine did their readership a major disservice ...


----------



## TorchBoy

Bones said:


> It is in consideration of these two factors that I feel the magazine did their readership a major disservice ...


I quite agree. They end up looking either a little disingenuous or rather ignorant.


----------



## Raymond

Since there's no big thread where you can post testresults of batteries, I'll post mine here 

I've done some simple charge/discharge tests on Panasonic AA infinium LSD batteries. The specs say "capacity up to 2100 mAh"

At first, I was disappointed, because even after about charge/discharge cycles, the battery I was testing only showed a capacity of about 1700-1800mAh. 
But I retested it again this weekend, and it's up to a capacity of 2050mAh, tested at a discharge rate of 500mA. 

Eventually, I will test all 6 of my infiniums (4xAA and 2xAAA), but that will take a lot of time. I give them 5 charge/discharge cycles, which take about 6 hours each. Testing all 6, will take about a week 

When I have all the results, I'll post them here. And eventually, I'll also do some voltage tests, when I've finally decided which DMM I'm going to get


----------



## FILIPPO

excuse me but I can't find the graph of elites 1700...
anyone have a direct link?


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Flippo,

Here is one from Cheapbatterypacks. 

Keep in mind that their test methods are a little different from mine. The charge at high rates, then do the discharge test immediately while the batteries are hot. These results would not be as good if you let the batteries cool off before testing them. However, they appear to be very strong batteries.

Tom


----------



## FILIPPO

SilverFox said:


> Hello Flippo,
> 
> Here is one from Cheapbatterypacks.
> 
> Keep in mind that their test methods are a little different from mine. The charge at high rates, then do the discharge test immediately while the batteries are hot. These results would not be as good if you let the batteries cool off before testing them. However, they appear to be very strong batteries.
> 
> Tom


 
thanks! 
will you test these batteries one day? :twothumbs


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Filippo,

I don't have any. If I ever get some, I will make sure I test them and post the results.

Tom


----------



## 1dash1

Silverfox:

Hi! I'm new here and not well-versed in tech stuff. Ask me a rule of golf question and I can give you chapter and verse on the ruling, ask me about the differences between a C123A and a 14400(?) battery and I'll likely give you a blind look. 

I'm sorry that I didn't stumble onto this discussion group a month ago, before I purchased a bunch of NiMH rechargeables, LED flashlights, and charger. I think I could have avoided some poor purchases. 

At least one of the purchases seems to have been okay, that being the MH-C9000.

I don't understand how to evaluate my C9000 test results relative to the NIMH Battery Shootout test results. You earlier made reference to ... 

... "Charging is done on a Vanson BC-1HU. Green light + 30 minutes."

... "Cycling is done in the "Refresh" mode on the La Crosse BC-900 charger at 500 mA charge rate and 250 mA discharge rate."

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what to make of these statements, relative to how my C9000 operates. 

*If I wanted to check my batteries against the NIMH Battery Shootout results, would I run a few charge-discharge cycles (500 mA charge rate and 250 mA discharge rate), then do a "Refresh & Analyze"?*



_Note: This question is related to another discussion on this board, "NIMH Battery Shootout compared with MAHA C9000"._ 
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/196260


----------



## SilverFox

Hello 1Dash1,

Welcome to CPF.

There are a few things you can do to compare your results with those in the shoot out.

Start by using the Break-In mode. This mode takes around 48 hours to complete, so be patient. The results you get should come pretty close to the labeled capacity of the cell. Also, your capacities should be similar between similar cells.

For example, right now I am testing some Tinko cells that are labeled as 3400 mAh. These are obviously fakes, but let's see what I came up with for results.

The Break-In mode gave me the following results:

1720 mAh, 2113 mAh, 2110 mAh, and 2119 mAh.

As you can see, they are not 3400 mAh cells by any stretch of the imagination. Also, cell 1 is not consistent with the others.

This is what you don't want to see when you check your cells. 

I then ran a few charge and discharge tests and the results were similar.

If you want to compare your results to the graphs listed, you need to charge the cells up, then discharge at 500 mA. You can then compare your capacity to the 500 mA discharge curve in the shoot out. Next you can charge the cells back up and discharge them at 1000 mA. Once again, you can compare your results with the 1 amp discharge rate curve in the graphs.

Good luck.

Tom


----------



## 1dash1

*Silverfox:*

*Will do. Thanks a lot!*

Results shown after break-in mode done for the DigiMate 2700 AA's:
Battery: #1 ___ #2 ___ #3 ___ #4 ___ #5 ___ #6 ___ #7 ___ #8
mAH: ....2283__ 2373__ 2377__ 2490__ 2320__ 2313__ 2170__ 2109
volt: ....1.40 __ 1.40 __ 1.39 __ 1.41 __ 1.44 __ 1.42 __ 1.42 __ 1.42

Not very promising for purported 2700 mAH batteries, eh?

We'll see what happens after a couple of charge-discharge cycles.


----------



## Black Rose

Just took some 800 mAh Eneloop AAAs off the C9000 after a break-in cycle.

Here are the reported capacities:
802, 799, 792, 804


----------



## 1dash1

Silverfox:

Well, here are the results after break-in and two cycles on the C9000:

DigiMate 2700 AA's:
Battery: .....#1 ___ #2 ___ #3 ___ #4 ___ #5 ___ #6 ___ #7 ___ #8
Cycle 1: ....2245__ 2356__ 2336__ 2446__ 2334__ 2349__ 2193__ 2116 (mAH)
Cycle 2: ....2233__ 2348__ 2331__ 2429__ 2317__ 2344__ 2142__ 2121 (mAH)
*Average:* ..*2239*__*2352 *__*2334*__*2438*__*2326*__*2347 *__*2168*__*2119 (mAH)* 

% of 2700: .....83% ___ 87%___ 86% ___ 90%___ 86% ___ 87%___ 80% ___ 78%​ 
Results for individual batteries from one cycle to the next were pretty consistent. Results across the eight batteries tested varied quite a bit. The mean of all the averages was 2290 mAH or 85% of the manufacturer's advertised 2700 mAH.​ 
These results would put the DigiMate 2700 in the range of some of the batteries labeled as 2400 to 2500 mAH capacities, shown on the opening page of this discussion string.​ 
I'm a little disappointed with the initial results, but we'll see how they perform in actual service. I suppose that as an uneducated buyer, I should be happy to get away without having them explode on me. 

P.S. I'm looking forward to testing my year-and-a-half old MAHA 2700 AA's for comparison.​


----------



## TorchBoy

That result of 78%, SilverFox, would you immediately retire that cell, or is your limit 80% of initial tested?


----------



## Anders

Hello 1dash1.

Welcome to CPF.

I am sure that your Maha 2700 cells perform a lot better than this DigiMate 2700.

I wasn't suprised to see mediocre results with noname cells, I'll suppose they where cheap?

Anders


----------



## SilverFox

Hello Ian,

When I get new cells, I form them. If they are from a battery manufacturer, I will send them back if they are below the minimum specified by the manufacturers data sheet.

On the other hand, if they are re-labeled cells, I use my forming results to give me an idea of the re-labeling policies of the brand. In this case I can "live" with cells that start out at 80% of their labeled capacity, because the label is not based on reality. However, I expect the cells to be consistent from cell to cell.

I now have a little more work to do in record keeping. I need to record what their capacity actually started at and use that as my reference. When they drop below 80% of their starting capacity, then it is time to retire them.

Tom


----------



## 1dash1

Anders:

Thank you! It's a nice community that you have here.

The DigiMate's were $9.99 for a pack of 8. The manufacturer's inflated rating doesn't bother me too much. I'm more concerned about the variability from cell to cell. It doesn't say much for their QC.


----------



## 1dash1

Silverfox:

Do you recommend that I match the cells with similar capacities? Do I have to worry about exploding batteries if I don't match them, or is that just a problem with the Li and 123 batteries?

* * * * *

I'd like to check on how fast the batteries self-discharge in a month. Any suggestions on how I can accomplish this with the C9000? 

_If I understand it right, the "Discharge" mode runs the batteries down to about 1.1v, then stops (I guess this is a safety feature?). Whereas, the "Cycle" mode runs the batteries down to 0.9v, so the two results are not comparable._

_* * * * *_

I have this growing itch to know more about my batteries, even when they are just sitting there doing nothing, and to purchase more flashlights than I will ever need. Do you have any pharmaceutical recommendations for this affliction? :green:


----------



## Black Rose

1dash1 said:


> I have this growing itch to know more about my batteries, even when they are just sitting there doing nothing, and to purchase more flashlights than I will ever need. Do you have any pharmaceutical recommendations for this affliction? :green:


It's called flashaholicism....it's very difficult to treat.

My recommendation: Charge 4 NiMh cells and check back in the morning


----------



## Power Me Up

1dash1 said:


> I'd like to check on how fast the batteries self-discharge in a month. Any suggestions on how I can accomplish this with the C9000?
> 
> _If I understand it right, the "Discharge" mode runs the batteries down to about 1.1v, then stops (I guess this is a safety feature?). Whereas, the "Cycle" mode runs the batteries down to 0.9v, so the two results are not comparable._



In my experience with the C9000, the discharge is the same in both modes - in all but the first versions, they discharge down to 0.9V under load.

Things could change with a new revision, but I don't see any reason why it would and I haven't seen any reports of what you're saying...


----------



## TorchBoy

Thanks for that clarification Tom.



1dash1 said:


> _If I understand it right, the "Discharge" mode runs the batteries down to about 1.1v, then stops (I guess this is a safety feature?). Whereas, the "Cycle" mode runs the batteries down to 0.9v, so the two results are not comparable._


The Discharge mode on the MH-C9000 runs the batteries down to 0.9V, as does the discharge part of the other modes (where applicable - obviously the Charge mode doesn't have a discharge part).


----------



## 1dash1

Torch Boy, Power Me Up:

Thanks! I'll keep a closer eye on the discharge cycle, the next time I use it.

========================================

Preliminary results on BTY 1200MAH AAA NiMH batteries:
*Under 400 mAH* for sample of four tested batteries.

_I'll post the results after the second cycle is done, but it's going to be ugly._

_ :toilet:_


----------



## SilverFox

Hello 1dash1,

Yes, I would recommend matching cells as best you can in multi cell applications.

With mismatched cells, one cell will empty first, and runs a risk of being reversed charged by the other cell(s). This will ruin the cell. With NiMh, you don't have to worry about "rapid venting with flame" during use, but you could have a venting incident during charging. On top of that, if you use mismatched cells your performance will suffer.

:devil: As far as a pharmaceutical recommendation goes... I usually find that a good strong cup of coffee goes a long way to clearing my head... :devil:

Tom


----------



## Black Rose

SilverFox said:


> :devil: As far as a pharmaceutical recommendation goes... I usually find that a good strong cup of coffee goes a long way to clearing my head... :devil:


Ummm....Isn't there a post on here somewhere where you said that you usually have 10 chargers on the go at any one time? Might need a stronger cup of coffee

P.S. Love the Battery Operated Moderator title


----------



## Black Rose

Another set of 4 ROV Hybrid AAA cells finished the discharge portion of the Break-In cycle on my MH-C9000 this morning. Capacities reported were:

754, 769, 777, 735 mAh

Cell #3 is the best result I have achieved so far with the ROV Hybrid AAA cells.
Cell #4 is the worst.


----------



## 1dash1

I just discharged a brand new pack of Kodak 2100 mah hybrid AA's last night. When I looked at the results this morning, they were all in the 1.1v range. That's not right. So, I ran the discharge mode again. Within a few minutes they drew down to 0.9v and terminated. Aha!

The values shown on the C9000 display after the discharge mode are energy discharged (mAH), elapsed time that it took to discharge (minutes), and voltage. The first two values are fixed upon completion of the discharge mode. The last value is real-time. _ I had mistakenly thought that all three values were fixed upon completion._

So, I learned two things. It really does discharge down to 0.9v and learn to write things down BEFORE acting. (I lost all the data to check how good the batteries were fresh out of the package, when I ran the second discharge test.) _ _


----------



## TorchBoy

1dash1, the 1.1V is the resting voltage while the 0.9V is the voltage under load. Normally cells will bounce back to around 1.2V unloaded after a C9000 discharge.


----------



## 1dash1

Okay, the results are in on the BTY 1200 mAH AAA NiMH batteries:

A set of four batteries were selected randomly for testing from the 12 batteries originally purchased. All batteries were in original plastic wrap, prior to testing. The batteries were conditioned using the "Break-In" mode, with the following results:

Btty #1 ..... Btty #2 ..... Btty #3 ..... Btty #4
290 ........... 304 ........... 286 ........... 281 (mAH)

Batteries were subsequently discharged at 0.5 mA, rested for 2 hours, then tested in the "Cycle" mode (2 cycles, discharged at 0.5 mA, charged at 0.5 mA). The test results were as follows:

Btty #1 ..... Btty #2 ..... Btty #3 ..... Btty #4
286 ........... 295 ........... 278 ........... 283 (mAH) CYCLE No. 1
284 ........... 291 ........... 275 ........... 281 (mAH) CYCLE No. 2

The results were less than 25% of the purported 1200 mAH battery capacity. :thumbsdow

I contacted the vendor and asked for instructions for getting a refund.


----------



## MattK

1dash1 - not that I think those cells are 1200mAh but a .5mAh discharge rate isn't appropriate for a claimed 1200mAh AAA cell. A Discharge rate of .2C, or .24Ah would have been the correct choice by which to rate the cells by as that is the IEC standard which is used by battery mfrs.


----------



## Bones

1dash1 said:


> ...
> The results were less than 25% of the purported 1200 mAH battery capacity.
> 
> I contacted the vendor and asked for instructions for getting a refund.



You may be dealing with counterfeit cells 1dash1.

Although I could locate a number of online sources for a BTY 1000mAh AAA cell, I could only find a few vendors on eBay selling a 1200mAh version.

Images of both the 1200mAh cell and the 1000mAh cell for comparison:









There is even one vendor on eBay, Broadway.HK.Shop, who is selling both versions.

Conversely, UK.Battery.Co, sells only the 1000mAh version.


----------



## Mr Happy

MattK said:


> 1dash1 - not that I think those cells are 1200mAh but a .5mAh discharge rate isn't appropriate for a claimed 1200mAh AAA cell. A Discharge rate of .2C, or .24mA would have been the correct choice by which to rate the cells by as that is the IEC standard which is used by battery mfrs.


I suspect 0.5 mA is a typo and it was in fact 500 mA. Discharging 300 mAh at 0.5 mA would take about 600 hours.


----------



## 1dash1

MattK:

I've been running tests on 2700 mAH AA's. I forgot to change the protocol for the AAA's. Newbie mistake.

_... or early signs of Alzheimers._ :tinfoil:

Nonetheless, I doubt if performance will pick up very much if I change the cycle protocol. After all, the C9000 automatically set the 0.2c and 0.1c rates during the break-in mode (the 1200 mAH capacity was properly inputted) and look at those results by comparison.
.
.
P.S. I originally planned on running tests on all 12 batteries purchased. However, the initial results are so bad, I think testing the remaining batteries would be a waste of time.
.
.


----------



## 1dash1

Mr. Happy:

Good catch! Indeed, the cycle mode was run at 0.5 A, not 0.5 mA.


----------



## 1dash1

Bones:

The BTY batteries tested look identical to the picture on the far left.




_If the vendor doesn't offer me a refund, I'll tear off the wrap and see what's underneath._


----------



## TorchBoy

*Re: NiMH Battery Shoot Out*



Bones said:


>


I found a couple of Hong Kong BTY sellers yesterday - less than $12 for a dozen 1000 mAh AAA cells. Their photos are of the silver ones.

http://www.1topstore.com/product_info.php?products_id=1738
http://www.8starshop.com/en/12pcs-rechargeable-aaa-1000mah-12v-ni-mh-nimh-battery.html

However, after tests on some of DX's BTY cells turned up a typical 50 mAh per 800 mAh cell, they don't look very attractive, even at that price.


----------



## hank

Torchboy asked a ways back
> relative values of capacity and self discharge? 

I will keep a few high capacity NiMH cells around, that I can charge fully before a weekend camping trip. But right now for this use my Maha 2100 and 2300 AAs bought a few years ago are fine. I don't find myself battery shopping for higher capacity ratings.

I am looking almost entirely for the low self discharge cells when I shop for new ones.

Main criteria --- not leaking. Reliable. Brand name.

Everywhere I talk to people lately -- from hospital purchasing folks to my auto mechanic to the computer people -- I hear over and over about shoddy or fake-labeled products.

_All_ the expense is going into the packaging. Nice quality cardboard boxes, good clear printing, heck, they've even started using spellcheck. And inside the box, crap.

The auto mechanic showed me a box of oil filters he'd taken delivery of lately. He said nowadays he takes metal snips to one out of every box of 24 that he gets, he doesn't trust the labels, the lot numbers, or anything else to be true.

The shoddy oil filter had almost no filter element -- no filter paper --- inside the pretty metal can. He showed me a good one made here -- the filter element was thick double layer densely folded filter paper packed in with good rubber gaskets. No oil got by the good one. No oil got usefully filtered by the cheap bad one.

I was astonished. They spend the money on the box and painting the can, and save a couple of pennies by shortcutting the _filter_element_ and ruin the vehicle when it blows out inside and quits working and lets paper scraps go into the engine.

This stuff is cheap stupid. Not cheap smart. Cheap destructive stupid.

The medical device purchasers aren't talking as clearly, no doubt afraid of liability.

So how do I value batteries? Trust, verify, ask, check and hope (sigh)


----------



## MattK

1dash1 said:


> MattK:
> 
> I've been running tests on 2700 mAH AA's. I forgot to change the protocol for the AAA's. Newbie mistake.
> 
> _... or early signs of Alzheimers._ :tinfoil:
> 
> Nonetheless, I doubt if performance will pick up very much if I change the cycle protocol. After all, the C9000 automatically set the 0.2c and 0.1c rates during the break-in mode (the 1200 mAH capacity was properly inputted) and look at those results by comparison.
> .
> .
> P.S. I originally planned on running tests on all 12 batteries purchased. However, the initial results are so bad, I think testing the remaining batteries would be a waste of time.
> .
> .



2 things I am sure of:

1 - If you test them at .24Ah they'll do better

2 - They'll never attain 1200mah


----------



## TorchBoy

*Re: NiMH Battery Shoot Out*



MattK said:


> 1 - If you test them at .24*Ah* they'll do better


This continued use of capacity when you mean current would be worrying enough if it wasn't for your sig.  :nana:


----------



## Bones

*Re: NiMH Battery Shoot Out*



TorchBoy said:


> I found a couple of Hong Kong BTY sellers yesterday - less than $12 for a dozen 1000 mAh AAA cells. Their photos are of the silver ones.
> 
> http://www.1topstore.com/product_info.php?products_id=1738
> http://www.8starshop.com/en/12pcs-rechargeable-aaa-1000mah-12v-ni-mh-nimh-battery.html
> 
> However, after tests on some of DX's BTY cells turned up a typical 50 mAh per 800 mAh cell, they don't look very attractive, even at that price.



It seems fairly obvious that the 1200mAh BTY AAA cells are fakes.

Once the eBay vendors are left out of the Google search criteria, there are only about 20 hits for 1200mAh BTY cells, none of which are relevant, as opposed to over 800 hits for the 1000mAh cells, most of which are relevant.

I'm amazed at the dismal capacity of the 800mAh BTY AAA cells at DealExtreme though.

BTY cells appear to be a product of Shenzhen BTY Electronics Technology Company, Ltd., which GlobalSources lists as a verified battery supplier to Canon and Sony and several other quality brands.

Accordingly, it's difficult to believe they would produce such absolute garbage and, worse yet, allow it to bear and consequently diminish their brand.

It would be interesting to know how the silver & blue cells perform. If they are at least an average performing cell, it could be indicative that the DealExtreme cells are fakes as well.


----------



## TorchBoy

*Re: NiMH Battery Shoot Out*



Bones said:


> BTY cells appear to be a product of Shenzhen BTY Electronics Technology Company, Ltd., which GlobalSources lists as a verified battery supplier to Canon and Sony and several other quality brands.


I think that "Verified Supplier" just means that Global Sources has checked they exist, and they are "actually who they say they are." It apparently doesn't mean they make official products for anyone.

Nice new avatar, BTW.


----------



## MattK

*Re: NiMH Battery Shoot Out*



TorchBoy said:


> This continued use of capacity when you mean current ...



Pedant much?


----------



## hank

Chuckle. It depends on how much you know whether a typo is trivial* or not.
Mark Twain said to be careful when reading medical books.

With electricity, too, a typographical error can hurt you.

Experts can breeze right over typos, knowing what the right word should be.

It's a kindness to corrects mistakes that otherwise get naive readers like me bollixed up.

Amperes is current, amp-hours is capacity -- I think. Help us out here.
_____________________________________
* Trivial: a UNIX sysop once told me what I'd asked was 'trivial' -- defined thus: "not worth my time to fix it it for you or explain it to you, and you'll never figure it out on your own."


----------



## 1dash1

Update: BTY 1200 mAH AAA batteries

The vendor says he'll give me a refund, just send the batteries back.

I'll do so today. 

_I almost wish that he didn't, so that I could post a negative comment about the bad merchandise (this was an eBay purchase). However, it was a good lesson for me - so, I suppose it will be a good lesson for the next buyer. Caveat emptor! _


----------



## Bones

*Re: NiMH Battery Shoot Out*



TorchBoy said:


> I think that "Verified Supplier" just means that Global Sources has checked they exist, and they are "actually who they say they are." It apparently doesn't mean they make official products for anyone.



After a closer look, I must agree that your rather than my interpretation of a "Verfied Supplier" is correct ...



TorchBoy said:


> Nice new avatar, BTW.



Thanks, I think he (okay, it) portrays a certain élan that I can only envy.

Now, if I just knew whether to credit Charles M. Schwarz or the Eneloop division at Sanyo ...


----------



## Black Rose

Take the middle ground...call him Snoopeloop


----------



## TorchBoy

*Re: NiMH Battery Shoot Out*



MattK said:


> Pedant much?


(Battery) professional, yes? :nana:



Bones said:


> Now, if I just knew whether to credit Charles M. Schwarz or the Eneloop division at Sanyo ...


So _that's_ why I like it. And it sort of relates to your handle.


----------



## hank

SSSSSSSSSchwwwwwwaaaaaartz?

Oh no. No.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_M._Schulz


----------



## geek4christ

Tom,

Would you be at all interested in testing the newer La Crosse cells? I have AAs rated at 2400mAh and AAAs rated at 800mAh that I can spare for a while. Let me know if you've the time and desire to test them.


----------



## Black Rose

Another set of 4 ROV Hybrid AAA cells finished the Break-In cycle on my MH-C9000 this morning. Capacities reported were:

770, 751, 778, 783 mAh

Cell #4 is the best result I have achieved so far with the ROV Hybrid AAA cells.


----------



## Raymond

I bought a pair of Varta ready2use AA cells yesterday.

Out of the packaging they measured 1522mAh and 1555mAh.

After charging them on my accumanager 20, they measured 2055mAh and 2081mAh.

All tests @ 500mA discharge.


----------



## servaas

Black Rose said:


> Another set of 4 ROV Hybrid AAA cells finished the Break-In cycle on my MH-C9000 this morning. Capacities reported were:
> 
> 770, 751, 778, 783 mAh
> 
> Cell #4 is the best result I have achieved so far with the ROV Hybrid AAA cells.


What batch number of MH-C9000?


----------



## Black Rose

servaas said:


> What batch number of MH-C9000?


0G0KA


----------



## 1dash1

Followup: BTY 1200 mAH AAA NiMH batteries. 
_The vendor promptly refunded me the full purchase price (including shipping & handling!) and offered me a discount on my next purchase. I'm not happy with the product, but the service was good._

=================================================

*Next: Kodak Pre-Charged AA 2100 mAH (hybrid) batteries*

A set of four batteries were tested straight out of the package with the MAHA C9000. The batteries were discharged at 400 mA, then conditioned using the "Break-In" mode, with the following results:

Btty #1 ..... Btty #2 ..... Btty #3 ..... Btty #4
2003 .......... 2015 .......... 2016 .......... 1986 (mAH)

Batteries were subsequently discharged at 400 mA, rested for 2 hours, then tested in the "Cycle" mode (2 cycles, discharged at 400 mA, charged at 400 mA). The test results were as follows:

Btty #1 ..... Btty #2 ..... Btty #3 ..... Btty #4
1987 .......... 2000 .......... 2011 .......... 2005 (mAH) CYCLE No. 1
1992 .......... 2009 .......... 2013 .......... 2016 (mAH) CYCLE No. 2

(Kodak's packaging stated the minimum charge is 2000 mAH.)

P.S. Sorry, I failed to record the original discharge values out of the package. I'll test another package of Kodaks after I get through testing the current batch of Eneloop AAA's.

--------------------------------------------------

*EDIT: Tested another fresh pack @ 400 mA. Initial discharge values:*
*1553 ... 1376 ... 1419 ... 1302 mAH*
*Average = 1413 mAH or approximately 2/3 of the 2100 rating.* 
*(Not bad, fresh out of the package!)*

Conditioned values were similar to previous pack tested:
2029 ... 2017 ... 2044 ... 1982 mAH.
.
.


----------



## Black Rose

Raymond said:


> I bought a pair of Varta ready2use AA cells yesterday.


I wonder if these are the European version of the Rayovac Hybrid (Varta and Rayovac are Spectrum brand companies).

It's interesting that Varta also sells a 1600 mAh version of the AA cells.

One interesting thing is that the Varta cells say they retain 80% charge after 1 year. The ROV are 80% after 6 months.


----------



## Raymond

I've heard that before, that they're the same as the rayovac cells.

I plan to store them, together with a pair of panasonic infinium cells for a certain time and test how well they keep their charge. 

I'm not sure about how long I want to store them. On the one hand, it's cool to find out how well they perform after six months. But on the other hand, personally, I find results after a month a lot more interesting.


----------



## Mr Happy

If you are able, close up photographs of each end of the cell would be interesting. We could see if they look the same as Rayovac Hybrids.


----------



## Raymond




----------



## Black Rose

I currently have 4 Eneloop AAA cells on a Break-In cycle on my C9000.

During the rest period following the discharge stage of the Break-In cycle, the following capacities were reported:

809, 809, 811, 809 mAh

Not bad for 800 mAh cells


----------



## Black Rose

I currently have 4 Eneloop AA cells on a Break-In cycle on my C9000.

During the rest period following the discharge stage of the Break-In cycle, the following capacities were reported:

2008, 1955, 1950, 1976 mAh

Cell #1 is the first AA Eneloop cell out of the 24 I've put through a break-in cycle to exceed the labeled capacity.

I've had 6 of the 8 AAA Eneloops I have exceed the labeled capacity during a break-in cycle.

Very interesting cells.


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## TorchBoy

*Re: NiMH Battery Shoot Out*



Black Rose said:


> Cell #1 is the first AA Eneloop cell out of the 24 I've put through a break-in cycle to exceed the labeled capacity.


I've had a handful that have exceeded 2100 mAh, although that Break In was after a few usage cycles.


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## 1dash1

Black Rose said:


> I currently have 4 Eneloop AAA cells on a Break-In cycle on my C9000.
> 
> During the rest period following the discharge stage of the Break-In cycle, the following capacities were reported:
> 
> 809, 809, 811, 809 mAh
> 
> Not bad for 800 mAh cells


 
My results were similar:

*804 ... 809 ... 806 ... 809 mAH*

And after two addtional cycles of charging/discharging @ 200 mA, the last discharge values were:

803 ... 810 ... 810 ... 812 mAH

Amazingly consistent. Speaks volumes for Sanyo's quality control. 
(Says an a lot about the precision of the MAHA C9000, too.)
:twothumbs


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## 1dash1

And here's the one month self-discharge test for my *MAHA Powerex 2700 AA* cells, discharged @ 500 mA:

2184 ... 2235 mAH
Average = 2210 mAH

They were charged a month ago on a MH-C401FS. So, I'm not sure exactly what the original charge was. But after the self-discharge test, I put the batteries through one cycle of charging/discharging @ 500 mA on the C9000 and here were the discharge values:

2615 ... 2625 mAH
Average = 2620 mAH

_(Very good for batteries that I bought 18 months ago.)_

*Assuming the batteries were charged to the same level by the MH-C401FS, that would mean that the MAHA Powerex 2700 batteries retained 84% of their charge after 30 days.*

I have two more originally charged batteries that I plan on holding onto for another 60 days, to do a comparative 90 day self-discharge test.
.
.


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## TorchBoy

*Re: NiMH Battery Shoot Out*



1dash1 said:


> _(Very good for batteries that I bought 18 months ago.)_


How many cycles, do you think?


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## Anders

Hello 1dash1.

Thanks for the info about the 2700 cells, sounds good.

A small "standard" here @ CPF is when charging with C-9000 is to keep them on the charger additional two hours after ready for trickle charging if not charged in the "break in" mode.


Anders


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## UnknownVT

1dash1 said:


> *Next: Kodak Pre-Charged AA 2100 mAH (hybrid) batteries*
> Btty #1 ..... Btty #2 ..... Btty #3 ..... Btty #4
> 2003 .......... 2015 .......... 2016 .......... 1986 (mAH)
> Btty #1 ..... Btty #2 ..... Btty #3 ..... Btty #4
> 1987 .......... 2000 .......... 2011 .......... 2005 (mAH) CYCLE No. 1
> 1992 .......... 2009 .......... 2013 .......... 2016 (mAH) CYCLE No. 2


 
Thank you _VERY_ much for the Kodak Pre-Charged results

Just a point of curiosity - don't the results from last 2 - cycles 1 & 2 - almost seems as if the battery numbers/sequence had been rotated by one ie: # 4, 1, 2, 3?

Any ideas why battery #1 from cycles 1 & 2 seem much closer to battery #4 in the initial readings?

I've been very interested in the Kodak Pre-Charged and have done a hodge-podge of ad-hoc experiments comparing these to eneloops in eneloop vs. Kodak Pre-Charged Voltage Maintenance. 

From this I can say that eneloops seem to hold/maintain a higher operating voltage under load by about 2-5%. But for most practical usage, eneloops and Kodak Pre-Charged seem to be about equal - probably because the total energy capacity (mW-hrs) is probably very similar - ie: the higher operating voltage of the eneloop compensates for the slightly higher current capacity of the KPC - giving equal/similar energy capacity.


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## 1dash1

*Re: NiMH Battery Shoot Out*



TorchBoy said:


> How many cycles, do you think?


 
TorchBoy:

The Powerex 2700 batteries were never conditioned. Just stuck in the charger and go. Total number of cycles discharged during the last 18 months, definitely less than 20 cycles. I'd guess somewhere around 10-12 cycles.


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## 1dash1

UnknownVT said:


> Thank you _VERY_ much for the Kodak Pre-Charged results
> 
> Just a point of curiosity - don't the results from last 2 - cycles 1 & 2 - almost seems as if the battery numbers/sequence had been rotated by one ie: # 4, 1, 2, 3?
> 
> Any ideas why battery #1 from cycles 1 & 2 seem much closer to battery #4 in the initial readings?
> 
> I've been very interested in the Kodak Pre-Charged and have done a hodge-podge of ad-hoc experiments comparing these to eneloops in eneloop vs. Kodak Pre-Charged Voltage Maintenance.
> 
> From this I can say that eneloops seem to hold/maintain a higher operating voltage under load by about 2-5%. But for most practical usage, eneloops and Kodak Pre-Charged seem to be about equal - probably because the total energy capacity (mW-hrs) is probably very similar - ie: the higher operating voltage of the eneloop compensates for the slightly higher current capacity of the KPC - giving equal/similar energy capacity.


 
Unknown VT:

I don't know why the readings seem anomolous. All I can report is that the batteries were never removed from the C9000 unit, so there was no opportunity for them to get mixed up. And I double-checked the numbers to ensure no transposition errors.

And thanks for your additional work about the operating characteristics of the Eneloop vs. Kodak Pre-Charged!


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## etc

1dash1 said:


> And here's the one month self-discharge test for my *MAHA Powerex 2700 AA* cells, discharged @ 500 mA:
> 
> 
> *Assuming the batteries were charged to the same level by the MH-C401FS, that would mean that the MAHA Powerex 2700 batteries retained 84% of their charge after 30 days.*
> 
> I have two more originally charged batteries that I plan on holding onto for another 60 days, to do a comparative 90 day self-discharge test.
> .
> .




Thanks for the report, I use these cells all the time.

I wonder how many cycles total can you use them for until you have to discard them.


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## 1dash1

etc said:


> I wonder how many cycles total can you use them for until you have to discard them.


 
Etc:

For my personal use, the batteries will probably become functionally obsolete before they are physically obsolete.

* * * * *

The test results (along with other anecdotal reports regarding the moderate discharge rate for the Powerex 2700 cells) has caused me to reconsider jumping onto the Low Self-discharge bandwagon.

For low-use applications (replacing batteries only once or twice a year), alkalines are cost effective.
For high-use applications, the Powerex 2700's better fit my needs.
For everything in between, I need to either spend more time on recordkeeping or just use Eneloops.
_I haven't quite figured out what to do about 14500's and 123's. My guess is that I'm rapidly approaching my threshhold for keeping this a fun (and safe!) activity. __So, I'll focus most of my energy (pun intended :naughty on AA's and AAA's for now._


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## servaas

1dash1 said:


> And here's the one month self-discharge test for my *MAHA Powerex 2700 AA* cells, discharged @ 500 mA:
> 
> 2184 ... 2235 mAH
> Average = 2210 mAH
> 
> They were charged a month ago on a MH-C401FS. So, I'm not sure exactly what the original charge was. But after the self-discharge test, I put the batteries through one cycle of charging/discharging @ 500 mA on the C9000 and here were the discharge values:
> 
> 2615 ... 2625 mAH
> Average = 2620 mAH
> 
> _(Very good for batteries that I bought 18 months ago.)_
> 
> *Assuming the batteries were charged to the same level by the MH-C401FS, that would mean that the MAHA Powerex 2700 batteries retained 84% of their charge after 30 days.*
> 
> I have two more originally charged batteries that I plan on holding onto for another 60 days, to do a comparative 90 day self-discharge test.
> .
> .



A similar test has also recently been conducted on new 2700mAh Powerex cells at http://wolfeyes.com.au/news/?p=9.


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## SilverFox

This thread is a bit big. I have started Part II here.

I am closing this thread and we can pick it up there.

I will continue to update the first post as I get new test data.

Tom


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