# Cree produces 1000 lumen single LED



## JB01245 (Sep 7, 2007)

Sounds exciting
http://www.primenewswire.com/newsroom/news.html?ref=rss&d=126287&topic=2048


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## matrixshaman (Sep 7, 2007)

Wahoo!! Hot wires watch out :nana: LED's gonna rule the world


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## matrixshaman (Sep 7, 2007)

I like this part especially : " "Cree's XLamp(r) LEDs are the best-performing commercially available LEDs, but we won't be satisfied until light bulbs are obsolete," comments John Edmond, Cree co-founder and director of advanced optoelectronics."


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## evan9162 (Sep 7, 2007)

1050 lm at 4A at 72lm/W

1050 lm / 72lm/W = 14.58W

14.58W / 4A = 3.64V

So the device had a Vf of 3.64V at 4A.

One easy possibility is that it's a 4 dice package, with each driven at 1A. Otherwise, it would take an extreme breakthrough to drive a single 1mm^2 device at 4A and get 70+lm/W, and maintain a 3.6V Vf.


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## jtr1962 (Sep 7, 2007)

Finally an LED which can operate at over a few watts while also maintaining decent efficiency. I doubt Cree is going the multi-die route. They either figured out how to reduce droop, or they managed to make a larger die by solving the problem of hot spots/uneven current distribution.


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## jirik_cz (Sep 7, 2007)

You know that crazy PC overclocking with liquid nitrogen? Maybe they just used Cree Q5 with sub-zero cooling? :devil:


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## evan9162 (Sep 7, 2007)

jtr1962 said:


> Finally an LED which can operate at over a few watts while also maintaining decent efficiency. I doubt Cree is going the multi-die route. They either figured out how to reduce droop, or they managed to make a larger die by solving the problem of hot spots/uneven current distribution.



It does say single-die in the article (should read closer). It's either an enourmous die or they've found some miraculous breakthrough to maintain output at high current. Given the Vf, I'd say a huge die is more likely. Ensuring even current spreading over a larger die is a far easier problem than (more than) doubling high current efficacy.


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## jirik_cz (Sep 7, 2007)

I just found this
http://qled.manufacturer.globalsources.com/si/6008810337280/pdtl/High-power-LED/1003211346/LED.htm

Is it fake or real? They claim 100W LED with 9000 lumens!!


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## evan9162 (Sep 7, 2007)

jirik_cz said:


> I just found this
> http://qled.manufacturer.globalsources.com/si/6008810337280/pdtl/High-power-LED/1003211346/LED.htm
> 
> Is it fake or real? They claim 100W LED with 9000 lumens!!



Sounds plausible. 36V at 3.5A would be a 10x10 array of cree dies, 350mA per die, 3.6V Vf per die. 9000 lumens from 100 dies is only 90 lumens per die. Doable given available dice and phosphors.


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## Gunner12 (Sep 7, 2007)

Now all we need a reasonable sized batteries that will take that current draw and still have a 1 hour runtime.

Amazing how fast LEDs have improved, this time last year, Cree XR-E LEDs were still a dream and Luxeons were top dog.


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## tvodrd (Sep 7, 2007)

Gunner12 said:


> Now all we need a reasonable sized batteries that will take that current draw and still have a 1 hour runtime.



A123 Systems. 

Larry


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## Martini (Sep 8, 2007)

I hope we see these in production soon. I'd happily run four of them in series at 1A a piece for better efficiency and more neutral tint. That would make an awesome household lamp.

Cree has now not only eclipsed Luxeon but is now taking over Osram's territory. Who will they take on next? Nichia?


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## LEDcandle (Sep 8, 2007)

Gunner12 said:


> Now all we need a reasonable sized batteries that will take that current draw and still have a 1 hour runtime.
> 
> Amazing how fast LEDs have improved, this time last year, Cree XR-E LEDs were still a dream and Luxeons were top dog.



Some of them 5000-7000mah D-sized li-ons seem to be a good bet for getting about 1+ hr runtime from 4A (which isn't even 1C of the cell).

1D Mag, 1000 lumens, single LED, anyone? 

how about 3D mag, 3000 lumens, 3 LED array?  (assuming the die and LED aren't as big as j-lo's *ss... )


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## KingGlamis (Sep 8, 2007)

The future looks "bright." :thumbsup:


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## RoGeR (Sep 9, 2007)

evan9162 said:


> One easy possibility is that it's a 4 dice package, with each driven at 1A. Otherwise, it would take an extreme breakthrough to drive a single 1mm^2 device at 4A and get 70+lm/W, and maintain a 3.6V Vf.


 
4 dice? Sure?

"A *single-die LED*, driven at four amps, produced 1,050 lumens in cool white and 760 lumens in a warm-white version."

It seems R-S bins are coming out soon...


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## evan9162 (Sep 9, 2007)

RoGeR said:


> 4 dice? Sure?
> 
> "A *single-die LED*, driven at four amps, produced 1,050 lumens in cool white and 760 lumens in a warm-white version."
> 
> It seems R-S bins are coming out soon...




Duh. I already corrected myself. Sheesh.


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## zk188 (Sep 9, 2007)

LEDcandle said:


> (assuming the die and LED aren't as big as j-lo's *ss... )


 

:laughing::laughing:


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## Erasmus (Sep 11, 2007)

This sounds promising! But it's only a R&D LED, so we don't know about commercial availability. I have searched the news on many websites but apparently there are no pictures, please post them if you can find some


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## Martini (Sep 12, 2007)

Considering the fact that most of the lab dice we hear about are _underdriven_ to reach record-breaking efficiencies, it's exciting to hear about Cree pushing a whopping 4A through theirs. History tells us that Cree announces what they intend to produce - in a reasonable time frame.


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## ViReN (Sep 13, 2007)

Erasmus said:


> This sounds promising! But it's only a R&D LED, so we don't know about commercial availability. I have searched the news on many websites but apparently there are no pictures, please post them if you can find some



last time when cree stated the XR-E in labs, it took about 6 - 7 months.... this time i have a feeling that it would be less than that to come on to the market.


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## PhantomPhoton (Sep 14, 2007)

As long as Cree delivers, I'm willing to wait a year. But Several months would of course be better. 
Now if it is a large die, how will that affect focusing all that 1000 lumens into throw?


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## HumanLumen (Sep 14, 2007)

Looks like the die is question is more revolution than evolution - see 

http://www.ledsmagazine.com/news/4/9/9

Quote "...John Edmond, who confirmed that the results are based on a next generation chip in which almost all aspects if technology – from epitaxial layer design to optical extraction to phosphor conversion – are not currently in production. A mix of evolutionary improvements and brand new, innovative approaches have been used. Individually, each of these improved technologies will begin to appear in production devices in the next 1-2 years.


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## Tritium (Sep 14, 2007)

OLD News Now!!

http://ledsmagazine.com/news/4/9/17

Thurmond


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## meuge (Sep 14, 2007)

I especially like this part from the last link:

The warm-white (2,950 K) LED produced 104.2 lumens of light output and achieved 99 lumens per watt efficacy. 


3K color - that's incandescent territory. Just imagine -> now you can have the regulation, runtime, and output of a 160+lumen Cree (at 1A)... with the throw-enhancing color of an incandescent!


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## evan9162 (Sep 14, 2007)

It's a shame that Lumileds isn't more aggressive with releasing new technologies. Though who knows, business wise, they may not have to be at this point.


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## havand (Sep 14, 2007)

meuge said:


> I especially like this part from the last link:
> 
> The warm-white (2,950 K) LED produced 104.2 lumens of light output and achieved 99 lumens per watt efficacy.
> 
> ...



Is it specifically the color the range of colors emitted that makes incans more 'color enhancing'?


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## Martini (Sep 14, 2007)

meuge said:


> 3K color - that's incandescent territory. Just imagine -> now you can have the regulation, runtime, and output of a 160+lumen Cree (at 1A)... with the throw-enhancing color of an incandescent!


Remember, LEDs don't emit anything close to a black body spectrum; the 3k figure is _correlated_ color temperature. Warm white LEDs are meant to aesthetically rather than functionally replace incandescents.

What this does mean, however, is that we are approaching the age of efficient LED-based residential lighting.


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## Crenshaw (Sep 14, 2007)

as you can see from my signature...

can anyway guess what kind of batteries this thing might need?

Crenshaw


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## lukevsdarth (Sep 14, 2007)

Still I can imagine car headlights made for the Cree bulb 1-4A draw is still better than 55/65 watts. Heck there are tailights made thinnner and smaller with red leds (Lexus, Cadillac). In the future when cars run hydroelectric and need every bit of juice this will be the best way led lighting. I must imagine the heatsink will look like a small radiator behind the body of the headlight.


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## FirstDsent (Sep 15, 2007)

It's gonna need a monster heat sink!

Bernie


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## stephenmadpotato (Sep 15, 2007)

evan9162 said:


> 1050 lm at 4A at 72lm/W
> 
> 1050 lm / 72lm/W = 14.58W
> 
> ...


 
Agreed,

They will probably need to manufacture a new battery, because the only ones I could find with 4000mah+ put out atleast more than 6 volts. Either way, this is a great break through. 

PS,
Nice ohms law there. Just learned it myself so I'm all eager to solve problems :nana:


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## LuxLuthor (Sep 15, 2007)

matrixshaman said:


> I like this part especially : " "Cree's XLamp(r) LEDs are the best-performing commercially available LEDs, but we won't be satisfied until light bulbs are obsolete," comments John Edmond, Cree co-founder and director of advanced optoelectronics."



*NEVER! * All you LED Jockeys! LOL! :nana:


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## LEDAdd1ct (Sep 15, 2007)

Man...

I was just thinking about upgrading my bike light...
now I'm afraid that if I buy one now, before the package gets to my *door* it will be obsolete...


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## chris_m (Sep 15, 2007)

LEDAdd1ct said:


> Man...
> 
> I was just thinking about upgrading my bike light...
> now I'm afraid that if I buy one now, before the package gets to my *door* it will be obsolete...



Having jumped on the earliest release of Q2 Crees with a bigger order than I needed instantly, thinking that would be state of the art for a while I know the feeling. Fairly sure I'm not going to bother buying any Q5s given better yet is waiting round the corner.


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## mzzj (Sep 15, 2007)

Gunner12 said:


> Now all we need a reasonable sized batteries that will take that current draw and still have a 1 hour runtime.


Dont worry about batteries, cooling is bigger problem.


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## Lit Up (Sep 16, 2007)

Glad I've slept through the initial Cree/ Rebel craze now.  I believe this is as bright as I would personally need in a flashlight.


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## chesterqw (Sep 16, 2007)

who needs fluorescent lamps?


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## TigerhawkT3 (Oct 8, 2007)

Anyone heard anything more about these?


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## DanielG (Oct 15, 2007)

Lit Up said:


> I believe this is as bright as I would personally need in a flashlight.



I'm sorry, perhaps I missed something.

Who has ever said anything about "need"?


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## JLumens (May 3, 2008)

how do get one of thes cree led 1000 lumens?
im thinking ill need a heat sink and use a cheap light for power
and mount. looking for sugestions.


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## saabluster (May 4, 2008)

JLumens said:


> how do get one of thes cree led 1000 lumens?



You will need to get a job with Cree R and D and then steal their prototypes.

:welcome:


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## rizky_p (May 4, 2008)

Oh man i am still waiting for 4 dies Cree and Rebel. I think 4 or 9 dies Rebel would be nice :twothumbs


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## IMSabbel (May 4, 2008)

I wonder why they dont just cut out _bigger_ dies from the wafers.
I mean, why cut and bond 4 1mm^2 pieces, if you just could use a 2*2mm^2 one.

Or a 1.5*1.5mm^2 one, with a bit less power, but nearly the same focusability than a normal led...

Is 1mm the scale lenght of the processes used, so they couldnt be sure anymore that the die is homogenuous?
Or is their equipment optimized for 1x1mm^2 Dies to such an extend that creating multi-die-modules is less developement effort than changing the machinery?


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## LukeA (May 4, 2008)

IMSabbel said:


> I wonder why they dont just cut out _bigger_ dies from the wafers.
> I mean, why cut and bond 4 1mm^2 pieces, if you just could use a 2*2mm^2 one.
> 
> Or a 1.5*1.5mm^2 one, with a bit less power, but nearly the same focusability than a normal led...
> ...



From what I understand, it's very difficult to get even flux and current distribution in larger dies.


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## space (May 5, 2008)

> I wonder why they dont just cut out _bigger_ dies from the wafers.


I'm think this has to do with yield. The larger the dies cut from a wafer, the higher loss per imperfection on the wafer. At least this is very dominant in the CPU-business but then we are of course talking about much larger dies.

space


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## 270winchester (May 5, 2008)

i think yield would be the issue. if one were to make a die 4 time as big, then each defect die would cause 4 time the loss.

remember these are semiconductors made with random sampling process control(most likely). given a certain sized wafer, using the larger dies, sampling 1/4 the number of dies would throw off the equation and if one whole lot were to be discarded, one would want to have data from the 1mmX1mm dies rather than the 2mmX2mm dies.


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## jtr1962 (May 5, 2008)

You lose twice with larger dice. First, as mentioned if the die is defective you lose four times as much semiconductor. Second, the chance of a die being defective rises with area. The relationship isn't linear, either. A die four times the size doesn't have 4 times the probability of being defective, but rather 4^x, where x>1 (I forget what x typically is). Putting this in layman's terms, if a wafer might give a 90% yield with 1 mm² dice then the same wafer would probably give under 10% yield with 4 mm² dice. From what I remember once you increase die size past some optimum the yield quickly approaches zero.


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## 270winchester (May 5, 2008)

I just remembered from before that in semiconductor production, when the loss approaches some statistical point, the entire production is shut down for problem trouble shooting.

That causes massive loss in both material and lost delivery. So aside from yield, a wave of production can be better monitored with high sub-units so the decision to halt production is based on a equation that has a lower margin of error, such that the standard deviation can be calculated in a logrithmically smaller scale. Depending on the number of units in each lot, one can use several different methods to calculate that poin, and while generally the result come out about the same, more precise data is better(naturally) from a statistical point of view.

dug up my old notes, so if one were to monitor a cycle of production based a number x units of standard deviation s, then the acceptable error margin= xs/(n^.5), so the the scale of error is a inversely correlated to total units^.5. 


the point I'm trying to make is that the last thing these guys want to do is to stop a production based on a sample error rate when in fact that whole lot is in control. The smaller the number of units, the larger that probability is.

in my recollection, the early adaptation of the statistical process control method is why SSC and other Korean firms came to dominate the semiconductor(not necessarily lighting sector) industry(the Japanese first did but cost became too much in Japan). Ironically American scientists came up with it and prostelyzed it to Japan then Korea, literally. Today 80-90% of all RAMs used in computers come from an industrial complex o the border between north and south Koreas.


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## jasonck08 (May 5, 2008)

Cost? I'm sure it will be more than the P7... Might be a while before it is afordable. When will we see these in flashlights? 6 months?


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## JLumens (May 12, 2008)

evan9162 said:


> 1050 lm at 4A at 72lm/W
> 
> 1050 lm / 72lm/W = 14.58W
> 
> ...


can i hook it strate to a battery a c123? or will amps blow it?


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## Edwood (May 12, 2008)

So much for Cree taking over, looks like the 1000 Lumen 6 die Ostar and 900 Lumen Seoul P7 are taking the lead.


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## Crenshaw (May 12, 2008)

yes, but cree still has the lead in terms of per die output right?

Crenshaw


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## phantom23 (May 12, 2008)

Cree and SSC because they use the same dies. SSC P4 U2 bin has the efficiency of Cree Q5/R2, same as P7 C bin.


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## LEDninja (May 12, 2008)

A torch with this LED is just like a SSC P7 torch minus the crosshairs in the beam:devil:
:sleepy::sleepy::sleepy:

At least we can use smooth reflectors again. No need for heavy textured reflectors to hide the gaps between dies as on the SSC-P7.

I am a little disappointed with the current efficiency at 72 lumens per watt though. The R2 is 100 lumens per watt and the R4 should get 113 lumens per watt. Hope Cree improves in this area for the new LED.


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## husky20 (May 13, 2008)

There are no gaps in my beam.


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## jirik_cz (May 13, 2008)

LEDninja said:


> I am a little disappointed with the current efficiency at 72 lumens per watt though. The R2 is 100 lumens per watt and the R4 should get 113 lumens per watt. Hope Cree improves in this area for the new LED.



The new LED has 72lm/W at 4A, R2 has 100lm/W at 0,35A. That is big difference.


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## Edwood (May 13, 2008)

jirik_cz said:


> The new LED has 72lm/W at 4A, R2 has 100lm/W at 0,35A. That is big difference.



Ouch, you can forget about a single or even dual cell lights running that new LED. That makes even the beastly 6 die Ostar look efficient.

-Ed


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## IMSabbel (May 13, 2008)

Edwood said:


> Ouch, you can forget about a single or even dual cell lights running that new LED. That makes even the beastly 6 die Ostar look efficient.
> 
> -Ed



How do you come to that conclusion?
Thats MUCH better than the ostars. And in fact its awesome even in comparison with the Crees.
Thats 1A per die. Even an R2 isnt much better than 75lm/W at that current, if at all.


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## jirik_cz (May 13, 2008)

Edwood said:


> Ouch, you can forget about a single or even dual cell lights running that new LED. That makes even the beastly 6 die Ostar look efficient.
> -Ed



You should check Ostar parameters first


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## TorchBoy (May 13, 2008)

Edwood said:


> Ouch, you can forget about a single or even dual cell lights running that new LED. That makes even the beastly 6 die Ostar look efficient.


Huh? :shrug: I don't understand either of those comments.


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## Edwood (May 14, 2008)

IMSabbel said:


> How do you come to that conclusion?
> Thats MUCH better than the ostars. And in fact its awesome even in comparison with the Crees.
> Thats 1A per die. Even an R2 isnt much better than 75lm/W at that current, if at all.



Doh, I was thinking of the 4 Die P7 with the 2.8A spec. Whoops.


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