# CR123A meltdown in PM6: What happened?



## Paul_in_Maryland (Aug 30, 2005)

Look what happened to the CR123A cells in my Pelican M6 xenon light:

_ left:_ (+) terminal of lower cell
_ right:_ (-) terminal of upper cell



 

What's more, the red rubber shroud that covers the clickie switch had peeled away and was hanging by a thread.

An acrid smell filled the vicinity. The cells were quite new, from a reputable dealer and manufacturer.

I didn't notice the damage right away--not till I reached for the light and saw the dangling rubber sheath. 

What happened? Did the switch turn on and stay on while the light was in my belt pouch, causing the light to overheat? The lamp assembly is fine, and with fresh cells the light works fine.


----------



## tvodrd (Aug 30, 2005)

JMO, but it looks as if the lower cell catasprophically vented. Do yo have a voltmeter to check the upper, towards the lamp, cell? If it's still 3V we may have another clue. 

Larry


----------



## Beamhead (Aug 30, 2005)

What brand of cells were they?


----------



## nemul (Aug 30, 2005)




----------



## Paul_in_Maryland (Aug 30, 2005)

tvodrd said:


> Do yo have a voltmeter to check the upper, towards the lamp, cell? If it's still 3V we may have another clue. Larry


Sorry, I don't.


----------



## Paul_in_Maryland (Aug 30, 2005)

Battery Station.


----------



## Billson (Aug 30, 2005)

Have you tried to contact Kevin and have the cells sent back to him for analysis?


----------



## tvodrd (Aug 30, 2005)

Paul,

After cleaning everything, can you pop the front cell along with a fresh one into the PM6 and try it? (That assumes it works with 2 fresh cells again.)

Larry


----------



## HarryN (Aug 31, 2005)

Battery Station is a very reputable RETAILER. The warranty from the MANUFACTURER of reputable BATTERIES will provide a warranty for damage from the cells on your device - as long as it does not recharge the cells.


----------



## Paul_in_Maryland (Aug 31, 2005)

Billson said:


> Have you tried to contact Kevin and have the cells sent back to him for analysis?


No, I haven't. I guess I should. You know, the clickie switch on a PM6 is very sensitive, and I just figured that the light turned on and stayed on in my bag, which might cause any cell to vent. I use a glass lens so that would explain why there's no damage there--if, in fact, the light turned on.


----------



## Paul_in_Maryland (Aug 31, 2005)

tvodrd said:


> Paul,
> 
> After cleaning everything, can you pop the front cell along with a fresh one into the PM6 and try it? (That assumes it works with 2 fresh cells again.)Larry


It does work with fresh cells. I'll try it (when I get home), but can you share with us what this might reveal?


----------



## Paul_in_Maryland (Aug 31, 2005)

HarryN said:


> Battery Station is a very reputable RETAILER. The warranty from the MANUFACTURER of reputable BATTERIES will provide a warranty for damage from the cells on your device - as long as it does not recharge the cells.


The only damage was that the red tailcap shroud came off. The tailcap still works, though the switch mechanism wiggles around. I trust it's not dangerous to touch the metal cap directly.


----------



## lexina (Aug 31, 2005)

Is it my imagination or is this happening more frequently with the PM6 (see 'A Little Accident' sticky thread under General Discussions). Could it be a design fault rather than faulty batteries? Am concerned cos I was thinking of getting the PM6.

The other incidents I have read involved the PT Surge and PT 40, both dive-lights which, being air/water-tight, do not allow built-up hydrogen gas to escape.

Incidentally, I have yet to come across an incident involving any of the Surefires.


----------



## TonkinWarrior (Sep 1, 2005)

That PM6 tailcap could well be the source of the problem. We had a pretty thorough thread about this issue a month or so ago. The bottom line is, while the PM6 is a rugged "throw" light, its tailcap is often problematic. Mine is touchy, too.

Pelican has good customer service. If you call them, they'll give you a service/claim number and tell ya to send it in for fix... or replacement.


----------



## HarryN (Sep 1, 2005)

Does anyone know the current draw on the PM6 ? As you get above 1 amp from each cell, things can start to warm up.

BTW, there are SF lights related incidents reported in the threads as well. Any light which pulls in the 1.5 - 2 amp range from a 123 for very long is going to be on the ragged edge of an issue. (assuming you trust Silverfox's tables)


----------



## KevinL (Sep 1, 2005)

Batterystation is also the exclusive master distributor of these cells which were manufactured at their request and with their involvement, plus they're a Pelican dealer as well, and an all-round good company - you should definitely be able to get some help from them if not a resolution. Give them a shot, they'll make things right.


----------



## lexina (Sep 1, 2005)

TonkinWarrior said:


> That PM6 tailcap could well be the source of the problem. We had a pretty thorough thread about this issue a month or so ago. The bottom line is, while the PM6 is a rugged "throw" light, its tailcap is often problematic. Mine is touchy, too.



that sounds plausible. if, as Paul says, the switch is very sensitive, it wouldn't be difficult to accidentally knock it on and the batteries would have fully discharged. btw, i thought only the PM6-led came with the clickie?


----------



## Paul_in_Maryland (Sep 1, 2005)

lexina said:


> i thought only the PM6-led came with the clickie?


You are correct. I was able to get a clickie because a fellow CPFer had seen read my thread lamenting my inability to purchase one from Pelican, and he contacted a friend at Pelican, who sent me one.

The UCL glass lens came with the light, which I bought used on eBay about two months ago.

The PM 6 used to be my EDC but I no longer feel comfortable carrying a light with such a trigger-happy switch, and I'd rather not use a twistie. I was thinking about giving the PM6 to a GI who is shipping off to Iraq in about 8 days. Should I give it with the bare, wobbly clickie, the twistie, or both?


----------



## innerlight (Sep 1, 2005)

WOW
Sorry to hear that Paul

Hope Pelican treats you well
Let us know how it works out


----------



## batterystation (Sep 2, 2005)

This type of thing is usually caused by batteries in series that are in a different state of charge. Slightly used with fresh, etc. Whatever the cause, we will replace both if you will send them to us. Kevin


----------



## Kiessling (Sep 2, 2005)

I cannot imagine the light being left on is the culprit here ... should be able to safely maintain a continious burn. We have a lot of higher drain lights that don't do this kind of stuff.

Kevin's explanation seems a plausible one.

bernie


----------



## Paul_in_Maryland (Sep 4, 2005)

batterystation said:


> This type of thing is usually caused by batteries in series that are in a different state of charge. Slightly used with fresh, etc. Whatever the cause, we will replace both if you will send them to us. Kevin


Kevin, I'm not sure whether, by "both," you mean both cells or both the cells and the flashlight, which I bought used, with a glass lens, on eBay. In any event, I've pretty much made up my mind to give the light to a GI on his way to Iraq, with some fresh, spare batteries from your last shipment to me. So the question is: Which tailcap should I provide? The bare metal clickie? The twistie? Or both?


----------



## cy (Oct 1, 2005)

please do post when/if you determine fault. sure glad no one was hurt!

thanks,


----------



## Paul_in_Maryland (Oct 2, 2005)

I returned the cells to BatteryStation, together with the light. In exchange, Kevin sent me a new Pelican M6 and a ton of new cells, which I've since donated to a "support our troops" drive at my place of work. Kevin, have you determined what happened?


----------



## NewBie (Mar 2, 2006)

Paul_in_Maryland said:


> I returned the cells to BatteryStation, together with the light. In exchange, Kevin sent me a new Pelican M6 and a ton of new cells, which I've since donated to a "support our troops" drive at my place of work. Kevin, have you determined what happened?



That is great customer service!


----------



## Lunal_Tic (Mar 2, 2006)

I'm just wondering, do you think the non - clickie versions are less likely to have this problem?

-LT


----------



## cy (Mar 3, 2006)

still wondering what was cause of melt-down? 

maybe we'll never know...


----------



## Paul_in_Maryland (Mar 5, 2006)

I never heard back from BatteryStation, so I don't know what, if anything, was found. You might check the sticky thread "A Little Accident" under Flashlights, General.


----------



## NewBie (Apr 22, 2006)

Paul_in_Maryland said:


> I never heard back from BatteryStation, so I don't know what, if anything, was found. You might check the sticky thread "A Little Accident" under Flashlights, General.



Wow, yet another Lithium 123 cell flashlight has a cell failure.

We are such a tiny community of under 20,000 users, it is amazing to see additional folks who have Primary cell Lithium battery failures.

I'm surprised that flashlight makers won't spend the additional 0 cents (yes free in some lights-circuitry is already there, just need to implement it) to 50 cents in a light to prevent one possible mode of failure, over discharging cells, which might possibly lead to a failure like you saw.


----------



## SilverFox (Apr 22, 2006)

Hello Newbie,

It is my understanding that AmondTech was concerned about this and it prompted Wayne to include a PTC in his Titanium CR123 cells. 

Do you think a PTC would prevent this type of failure?

I am also under the impression that very few primary 123 cells have PTC protection. Have you heard anything about that?

Tom


----------



## NewBie (Apr 24, 2006)

SilverFox said:


> Hello Newbie,
> 
> It is my understanding that AmondTech was concerned about this and it prompted Wayne to include a PTC in his Titanium CR123 cells.
> 
> ...




Yes, Duracell, Energizer, Surefire all put PTC devices in their Lithium 123 Primaries.

"This battery contains a Positive Temperature
Coefficient (PTC) safety device to limit current
during short circuit conditions."
http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/123.pdf


As a result of these tests, the DL2/3A cell and batteries comprised of this 
cell type, e.g., 123, 223, 245 are recognized for user-replaceable and technician-replaceable applications per UL File MH12538. 
*Duracell was the first to design a resettable current and thermal protection system called a PTC (Positive Temperature Coefficient) device into its high rate cells.*
http://www.duracell.com/oem/primary/Lithium/safety.asp

You can find a cut-away of where the PTC is placed in these cells here:
http://www.duracell.com/procell/chemistries/lithium.asp

Even more here:
http://www.duracell.com/procell/chemistries/lithium.asp#

Varta and their PTC:
http://www.varta-microbattery.com/en/mb_data/documents/posters/PosLiCylCR.pdf

Panasonic's PTC:
http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/battery/oem/flash/images/specs.pdf


Pretty much every major brand 123 cell maker uses PTC devices in their Primary Lithiums. In fact, I doubt that you can find 123 cells without PTC devices in them.

I do wonder about the wisdom of using the extra high current, or higher temperature PTC devices, such as would be found in the AmondoTech cells, and the reduced safety factor of the same.

AmondoTech, with their new "5 Amps" PTC, is pushing things alot harder than other cells, and these cells would be less safe, imho.

Normally, the PTC's kick in at a much lower temperature, on the 123 cells, around 1-2 Amps, where things are much cooler than at 5 Amps.

PTC, Positive Temperature Co-effficient devices change their resistance due to temperature.

FYI, on a side note, I have heard of some PTC devices being shorted by Static Electricity...but I don't know about the PTC device found in the 123 cells and static electricity.


----------



## IonFire (Apr 24, 2006)

Hmm,

I was just playing around with my Peli PM6, and wondered, is it only the batteries to blame(The different capacity culprit)or another villian at play?



If, one was not paying real close attention, after installing the batteries and putting the tail cap back on, and maybe might have over tightened it and partially crushed a battery in the process, or weakening the hermetic seal atleast and then the sequence of events unfolds.



Now bear with me here, i noticed on these lights,that the spring that is attached to the head is very strong, maybe overkill for the application, and the head,can screw down onto the light tube an awfully long ways before it seats. Now with this in mind i screwed the tail cap onto mine without batts and counted turns untill it bottomed on the tube, 3 1/2 turns from first thread grab till seated, now when the batteries are installed, the tailcap will make contact and begin to work from the 1st to 2nd thread engaged,so to really lock it out like it is capable of when the head is on tight, it the tailcap, is on the last thread or two of the tube and very insecure.



Now most wouldn't think of depth of tailcap allowance when screwing it(The light) back on after installing batteries, and would turn it (Tailcap) untill it bottomed lightly and proceed to use the light, well because this is a thread compression system,the threads would have no problem overcoming the springs tension in either end, but they are longer then nescary i think. This leads me think that possibly, because thier have been 2 instances with this particular light that there must have been a common link other then being left on only, in one case ok, the other is still unknown, but the same light in both cases. 



Now my speculation is and i repeat, That the bodies internal length collectively inbetween the springed ends is possibly too short and crushing the PTC of one or both batteries and possibly damaging the hermetic seals aswell in the process of battery installation. Now it is late here, and i may have made a mistake and am not pointing fingers at anyone, just like other peli owners, not ruling anything completly out and want closure.

I will put this spring on a scale this week to determine its true tension, it imho is too much.


Thoughts?



IF


----------



## jsr (Apr 24, 2006)

NewBie said:


> In fact, I doubt that you can find 123 cells without PTC devices in them.


 
Tenergy primary CR123As do *not* have PTC protection. That's the only brand I know of that doesn't.

Does anyone know if BatteryStation 123As have PTC?


----------



## NewBie (Apr 25, 2006)

More info with pictures of a 123 cell PTC:

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1381798#post1381798


----------



## chevrofreak (Apr 25, 2006)

Something I'm curious about, do you think the stiff positive contact spring might be damaging the batteries? I know my M6 has dented more than its share of batteries.


----------



## IonFire (Apr 25, 2006)

Chevrofreak,


Yes i think it is capable of crushing the batteries while installing the tail cap, or atleast, putting too much pressure on the batteries while in use.


IF


----------



## NewBie (May 18, 2006)

Are you guys talking about denting the bottom of the battery?


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jun 19, 2006)

I don't recall what caused me to do it the first time, but I have atotal of 5 Lamp Modules for my "early" PM6. I Dremeled the sprins on all of them to very short and tweaked the end to cross over the nipple.

Also my PM6 has the Kroll conversion from Flashlightlens and the spring is a lot nicer/softer than the stock one.

I urge any early PM6 owners to do the LM spring mod if nothing else!


----------



## batterystation (Jun 21, 2006)

Yes Battery Station CR123As have a PTC. It would never have passed UL without one. Lots of tests going on regarding CR123A batteries in general in high powered lights. These high current incans are putting heavier load current and higher temps to CR123A batteries than was ever imagined just a few years back. Every brand of CR123A has had similar failures. It is not as simple as blaming a particular battery or particular flashlight. 

As NewBie has stated, there is a LOT of stored energy in a tiny place and it can get unstored in a hurry. As one added precaution, we are ZTS testing EVERY CR123A Battery Station battery that goes through here now. Of all the possible variables, maybe we can catch that one mismatched cell that could have added to the equation.

Bottom line: Respect that little can of stored energy and handle it with caution.


----------



## jsr (Jun 21, 2006)

Good to know BS cells have PTC. That was something I was wondering for a while as I couldn't find the info anywhere. To summarize for others, here's what I found on the lower cost primary 123A brands:

Amondotech - PTC
BatteryStation - PTC
Tenergy - NO PTC
Ilumicell - NO PTC


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jun 21, 2006)

Bears mentioning I GUESS...

I got a 50pc Box of BS cells several months ago. When I started reading these :boom: threads, I flash amped them. I found several different FA among them all, with one mighty low. I have marked pairs now.

I also checked the cells in my several 2L lights, and found everything ok.

I've said it a few times now. With reasonable precautions, I ain't skeered of Liths or LiIons.


----------



## NewBie (Jun 24, 2006)

Paul,
Did you notice any physical/medical problems like others have had when exposed to the products comming out of a failed cell?


----------

