# Incandescent's, have they reached their technological limit?



## ebow86 (Jan 31, 2010)

Their's no debate about one thing, incandescent flashlights are dying, they have been for the last several years. Virtually no companies have a interest in incandescent technology any more, not with all the new LED technology available to us now. The chances of a new surefire incan coming out are slim to none, because the only sales would be some of us diehard incan users, most look toward LED. But here's my question. In my opinion the Surefire 10X dominator and M6 guardian and two of the greatest incandescent flashlights ever created. Are these two flashlights at the limits of how advanced an incandescent flashlight can be with that type of technology? Have we hit the brick wall, so to say, or is there something promising on the herizion that may Rejuvenate manufacturers to start looking into some producing new incandescent's?


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## Phaserburn (Jan 31, 2010)

Good question.


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## Dioni (Jan 31, 2010)

Indeed, have they reached their technological limit? :thinking:

I think it depends on the batteries technologies and people stopping say "its so yellowish" . We have not seen a li-ion or LiPo powered Surefire incan yet. It may never occur, altough I desperatly want it to


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## Conte (Jan 31, 2010)

There is nothing really advanced about the Surefire M6 guardian it's pretty simple from what I know of it, and I would almost go as far as to say that the Maglite is more advance due to its focusable cam system. There is more to the 10X dominator, thats for sure. But really, they are all just fancy tubes. 

The funny thing about incandescent lights, is there really isn't anything advanced about them. They are just a package, a tube of sorts in which to mount a bulb and some batteries for practical use. Those only REAL advancements made in incan tech, is in the bulbs themselves. I would hazard to guess that we have already mastered the Incan light bulb making it as efficient as can be. Now it's jsut a question of what rated filament do you want it what size envelope on what kind of base to match your application. 

The only other advancements to be made are in Battery and Reflector tech, but those are both advancements to be shared with the LED.

If you go to your nearest whatever store, Incan flashlights are dropping off the shelf in favor of LED for the average Joe, but for the time being Incan has a while to go yet, as it still has many practical uses in the high end market until LED matures to match Incans wide spectrum output. 

Meanwhile, fluorescent tech is improving in leaps and bound to replace Incan in the household and workplace for room lighting. I'm quite impressed by the new 6700k T5HO offerings. 

HID seems already to be replacing incan for extreme high output applications and with tweeking are more capable of delivering wide spectrum light then LED.

Sadly, I do have to admit, the incan clock is ticking. A day will come when a LED can do everything and incan flashlight can do and better. Some would debate that day has already come.

IN other news, we still have quite a few decades to go before Incan bulbs go way of the Carbide Lamp, which STILL can be had today with the right sourcing.


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## Bullzeyebill (Jan 31, 2010)

I think many CPF'ers will keep the incan game going here, particularly with regulated incan circuits becoming more available. Would be nice if the temperature of the hot wires could be increased without burning out the wires, something designed to keep them cooler, then we could see efficency improve, and light output increase per watt.

Bill


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## AnAppleSnail (Jan 31, 2010)

As much as the standard transmission has, yes.


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## leukos (Jan 31, 2010)

AnAppleSnail said:


> As much as the standard transmission has, yes.


 
That is an excellent comparison. :thumbsup:


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## Dioni (Jan 31, 2010)

I read somewhere here something about the use of lasers with bulbs to produce a whiter light. Did someone also see it?


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## computernut (Jan 31, 2010)

I think with new battery technologies us incan guys will be laughing as the runtime problem will be a thing of the past. The thing is that LEDs will continue to improve and there will be less reasons to use incans. It'll remain for some a personal preference to have the nice warm glow of a filament


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## LuxLuthor (Feb 1, 2010)

It's like comparing a ball point pen and a beautiful fountain pen.


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## ebow86 (Feb 1, 2010)

computernut said:


> I think with new battery technologies us incan guys will be laughing as the runtime problem will be a thing of the past. The thing is that LEDs will continue to improve and there will be less reasons to use incans. It'll remain for some a personal preference to have the nice warm glow of a filament



Well that's the thing about it. No company out there is going to devote any more time and money into developing a new incandescent flashlight, there's just no demand. It's a dying technology. Everytime I use my 10X dominator I dream of the day surefire will release a new updated version with an advanced lithium ion battery, but sadly it's not going to happen. With that said, I don't think us diehard incan users will be laughing at runtimes of old anytime soon. Unfortunately the battery's powering our incan's now is probably as good as it's going to get, only held back by the desire of manufacturers to move on to more promising things like LEDS and what powers them.


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## leukos (Feb 1, 2010)

ebow86 said:


> Unfortunately the battery's powering our incan's now is probably as good as it's going to get


 
True, you may never see a better battery for your 10X from Surefire, but the demand for better Li-ion technology is only increasing in most areas of electronics: cell phones, laptops, electric cars. There are some possibilities on the horizon, but there is always a lag time from the laboratory to the store shelves: http://www.geek.com/articles/gadget...-stores-10x-more-energy-than-li-ion-20090520/


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## ebow86 (Feb 1, 2010)

leukos said:


> True, you may never see a better battery for your 10X from Surefire, but the demand for better Li-ion technology is only increasing in most areas of electronics: cell phones, laptops, electric cars. There are some possibilities on the horizon, but there is always a lag time from the laboratory to the store shelves: http://www.geek.com/articles/gadget...-stores-10x-more-energy-than-li-ion-20090520/



Absolutely, battery technology is only going to move forward and the demand will grow larger, but when are you going to see any of that technology being applied to an incandescent flashlight? Not from the manufacturer of the light anyway, maybe by some modder's out there.


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## ebow86 (Feb 1, 2010)

"There is nothing really advanced about the Surefire M6 guardian it's pretty simple from what I know of it, and I would almost go as far as to say that the Maglite is more advance due to its focusable cam system. There is more to the 10X dominator, thats for sure. But really, they are all just fancy tubes."" _ Conte, although you make some good points in your post I would have to respectively disagree withe this part. If you take into consideration the material the M6 is made of, the technology and research behind the lamp and reflector, and most of all compair it to every flashlight available at the time of it's release, yes I do consider it an advanced piece of technology. I get what your saying, its just a tube with a lamp, but looking behind the scenes alot of technology went into making lights like the M6 and 10.


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## Linger (Feb 1, 2010)

The SF lights aren't peak of tech at all.
Add an AW soft-start to a hikari JC5607 and 3AW IMR 26500's and there is a multi-level bulb with output that may double all cpf production led lights (ssr-90 based emitters, the JETBeam, the new 4Seven's).

Going above this tech are Jimmy M's and Alan B's incan regulators. Beyond my 1st hand experience, these steady-output long running high output incan options are tech way ahead of anything surefire put out.

While led's need current regulated, incan's need voltage regulated, but if you remove drivers from each then led doesn't look that advanced it just runs longer.

///
Possible that filaments become much stronger with molecular/nano assembly, removing manufactured impurities the filaments could enter the fantastic efficiencies that we begin grasping at the high end of Lux's destructive incan hotwire charts.


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## Kestrel (Feb 1, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> It's like comparing a ball point pen and a beautiful fountain pen.


... or like comparing a telephone to a marmot. :ironic:


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## Linger (Feb 1, 2010)

A generally large ground squirrel?

Well if you wanted to roast the squirrel, a fire-starting incan could help.


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## kramer5150 (Feb 1, 2010)

I think as long as LED CRI remains inferior to incan lighting... incans will never _completely _die out.

I can see a time when LED lighting will achieve a near-100 CRI. At that point incan lighting will fall into a niche market segment. Its very similar to how other technology driven hobbies have gone:

-analog audio versus digital audio
-Guitar tube amps versus digital modeling
-Mechanical automatic versus Quartz watches

The consumer market is $$$ driven, no ifs ands or buts about that. manufacturers are ONLY going to release products that sell in volume. That volume is going to be in the LED segment. But that doesn't diminish the strengths of incan lighting at all.


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## Inliner (Feb 2, 2010)

Dioni said:


> I read somewhere here something about the use of lasers with bulbs to produce a whiter light. Did someone also see it?



Yeah whatever was the verdict on the femptopulse (sp?) laser treatment?


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## Conte (Feb 2, 2010)

> -analog audio versus digital audio
> -Guitar tube amps versus digital modeling



+1 about the guitar amps. As long as human rock, the Vaccuum tube will die hard, even harder then the Incan.

Sadly, analog audio, is on it's way out. At least as far as recording and production goes.


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## RobertM (Feb 2, 2010)

Linger said:


> The SF lights aren't peak of tech at all.
> ....



How about the A2 Aviator with its incandescent regulator (LVR)?


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## IMSabbel (Feb 2, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> It's like comparing a ball point pen and a beautiful fountain pen.



Nah, its more like a horse buggy and a car.


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## IMSabbel (Feb 2, 2010)

Inliner said:


> Yeah whatever was the verdict on the femptopulse (sp?) laser treatment?


Well... thats not really using lasers to produce light. 
Thats just a way of manufacturing special surface morphologies.


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## LuxLuthor (Feb 2, 2010)

IMSabbel said:


> Nah, its more like a horse buggy and a car.



I would give the LED more credit than saying it is a horse and buggy.


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## RobertM (Feb 2, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> I would give the LED more credit than saying it is a horse and buggy.


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## Linger (Feb 2, 2010)

RobertM said:


> How about the A2 Aviator with its incandescent regulator (LVR)?


Sorry Robert, I'm not familiar with it. The OP has referenced the M6 and D 10x as 'top' of incan tech, yet a thermistor, or better the AW softstart are advances that can take the m6 beyond surefire's stock version.

Give a nod to Alan and Jimmy regulators and IMHO incan tech is very exciting indeed. If the LVR is in this class, then perhaps your suggestion is that the A2 should be reguarded as 'more advanced' sf product then the m6?

At any rate, I've long since determined that single level led's are poorly suited for my usage pattern; I recently discovered that multi-level incans fit me very, very well.


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## RichS (Feb 2, 2010)

Linger said:


> Sorry Robert, I'm not familiar with it. The OP has referenced the M6 and D 10x as 'top' of incan tech, yet a thermistor, or better the AW softstart are advances that can take the m6 beyond surefire's stock version.
> 
> Give a nod to Alan and Jimmy regulators and IMHO incan tech is very exciting indeed. If the LVR is in this class, then perhaps your suggestion is that the A2 should be reguarded as 'more advanced' sf product then the m6?
> 
> At any rate, I've long since determined that single level led's are poorly suited for my usage pattern; I recently discovered that multi-level incans fit me very, very well.


I don't think the OP said that the M6 and 10x are the most technologically advanced, but just that they were two of the greats of all time in the field of incans. I would completely agree with this - the perfect beam of the M6, plus the artistry of the host is unbeaten, and the high/low flexibility plus rechargeable off-the-shelf of the 10X also makes it one of the greats. 

But I would also agree with Robert that the A2 utilizes much more technology than either of those lights, as it is virtually the only truely regulated incan in production. Not only do you get regulated incan light with the A2, but you have access to long run LED light for when low light is necessary for runtime or output.

I'm with you on the multi-level incans - I love the AW tailcap and Mag switches that not only give you 3 nice levels, but extend the life of your bulbs. This is the place to come to give your incans the technology kick they need.


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## knightrider (Feb 2, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> I would give the LED more credit than saying it is a horse and buggy.



Totally awesome!


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## turbodog (Feb 2, 2010)

RichS said:


> I don't think the OP said that the M6 and 10x are the most technologically advanced, but just that they were two of the greats of all time in the field of incans. I would completely agree with this - the perfect beam of the M6, plus the artistry of the host is unbeaten, and the high/low flexibility plus rechargeable off-the-shelf of the 10X also makes it one of the greats.
> 
> But I would also agree with Robert that the A2 utilizes much more technology than either of those lights, as it is *virtually the only truely regulated incan in production*. Not only do you get regulated incan light with the A2, but you have access to long run LED light for when low light is necessary for runtime or output.
> 
> I'm with you on the multi-level incans - I love the AW tailcap and Mag switches that not only give you 3 nice levels, but extend the life of your bulbs. This is the place to come to give your incans the technology kick they need.




Sorry, not correct.

There are quite a few headlamps that are regulated incans. Willie Hunt helped with the circuitry design on them. Look at some black diamond headlamps.

He also worked on a regulated dropin for a 2d maglite (or any 2 cell d light that uses a pr bulb).

However, regulated incans with soft start aren't all that hard. Any decent EE college student can design one.

To get back to the original post...

Incans have hit a wall with light output per watt. Leds have finally surpassed this and will continue to climb. 

Pure filaments or not, tungsten will eventually melt. And whether the light's produced by the filament, or produced and augmented by a laser, you can only get the dang thing so hot before it all melts.

LEDs are popular technology. Don't expect anyone to fall over themselves to produce a better incan light. It's market driven...

And now we are seeing it come full circle. LEDs are getting bright enough you can sacrifice some of that and get warm white/high CRI as a tradeoff. RA/HDS is doing this now.

I look forward to about 2 years from now. I expect to have a single cell 123 light that produces 200 lumens of warm white light for 2 hours.

And I agree that the mag really had more complicated tech than the surefire. Both have a computer designed reflector. Both have a bulb outsourced to another company, but the mag's still got the whole cam movement mechanism inside to deal with.


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## RichS (Feb 2, 2010)

turbodog said:


> Sorry, not correct.


Sorry - would I be correct if I would have said "flashlight"? That's what I meant. I think there might be one other production regulated incan flashlight that I have seen, but not in the class of an A2.


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## RyanA (Feb 2, 2010)

Asthetically I'm not sure they'll ever be obsolete. Aside from their inherent simplicity, consider the beauty in the combination of alternating current and the incandescent light bulb.


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## Dioni (Feb 2, 2010)

Inliner said:


> Yeah whatever was the verdict on the femptopulse (sp?) laser treatment?


 
I found the thread *New discovery could lead to improved incandescents*. It could double the amount of light. However, the problem is already said: devote time and money with new incan technologies? no companies have disposal to!


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## Dioni (Feb 2, 2010)

RyanA said:


> Asthetically I'm not sure they'll ever be obsolete. Aside from their inherent simplicity, consider the beauty in the combination of alternating current and the incandescent light bulb.


 
We have to consider it! The simplicity of incan lights!


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## leukos (Feb 3, 2010)

AnAppleSnail said:


> As much as the standard transmission has, yes.


 
Automatic transmissions are found on the majority of passenger vehicles in the USA (other countries this is not necessarily true). But standard transmissions, even though they are older tech, are found on more heavy duty machinery and high performance sports cars. 

LEDs will soon replace the 2D incan in most kitchen drawers. I think incans will still be found in situations where more brute amounts of light are needed, and where specialized, high performance lighting is desired.


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## RobertM (Feb 3, 2010)

Linger said:


> Sorry Robert, I'm not familiar with it. The OP has referenced the M6 and D 10x as 'top' of incan tech, yet a thermistor, or better the AW softstart are advances that can take the m6 beyond surefire's stock version.
> 
> Give a nod to Alan and Jimmy regulators and IMHO incan tech is very exciting indeed. If the LVR is in this class, then perhaps your suggestion is that the A2 should be reguarded as 'more advanced' sf product then the m6?
> 
> At any rate, I've long since determined that single level led's are poorly suited for my usage pattern; I recently discovered that multi-level incans fit me very, very well.



I could be wrong, but I believe that Alan and Jimmy's regulators are actually based on Willie Hunt's (SureFire) LVR.

-Robert


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## jcvjcvjcvjcv (Feb 4, 2010)

I think government is also to blame for slower innovation in the Ican industry. You know, if a bunch of politicians outlaw your product (the incan bulbs), why bother investing in it to improve it? 

Those left-liberal "control it all" politicians that have no respect for free choice, common sense or even their constitution seem be in the majority almost everywhere. 

It's not that they would change their vote if the efficiency of Incan bulbs increases 500%. They just want to get rid of them, no matter what.



leukos said:


> Automatic transmissions are found on the majority of passenger vehicles in the USA (other countries this is not necessarily true). But standard transmissions, even though they are older tech, are found on more heavy duty machinery and high performance sports cars.
> 
> LEDs will soon replace the 2D incan in most kitchen drawers. I think incans will still be found in situations where more brute amounts of light are needed, and where specialized, high performance lighting is desired.



In my country (NLD) automatic transmission cars are in the minority. If you get your drivers license (just another piece of government crap) and did your test in a car with automatic transmission, you get a special mark on your license that says you're not allowed to drive cars with standard transmission.


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## LuxLuthor (Feb 4, 2010)

RobertM said:


> I could be wrong, but I believe that Alan and Jimmy's regulators are actually based on Willie Hunt's (SureFire) LVR.
> 
> -Robert



While true that these latest regulators used concepts found in Willie's pulse width modulation regulator, and he is given full credit in development threads (although that was not his electrical chip invention), but his latest PIR software had unresolved problems that rendered it nearly useless. I know. I have one.

Alan & Jimmy's work each took incan regulators to a revolutionary new level, with almost unlimited control via new user programmable software interface. This was some of the appeal of the voltage adjustable AWR Hotdriver, but despite adjustable POT voltage Vbulb, it had current and functional limitations.


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## ampdude (Feb 4, 2010)

Incans haven't even come close to peaking. But like mentioned already in the thread, there has to be a will and incentive to do the R&D to make a nano-constructed bulb (for example). It sounds like some of the R&D is done, but there has to be a financial incentive to build them and there really is none according to most manufactures. I predicted a leap in battery technology in this very forum shortly before AW introduced the IMR cells and I'm positive there are many more to come in the future that will benefit all lights, incans, HIDs, LED's and others.


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## Phaserburn (Feb 5, 2010)

Perhaps in 10 years when our landfills become super-saturated with mercury, R&D $ will be re-focused on incan tech.


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## Cataract (Feb 5, 2010)

Even if there is a lot more to be discovered in incan technology, there must be a lot of makers out there figuring it's not worth the cost since, one way or another, lotsa companies are investing big bucks to make LED's much better... the R&D competition is too strong on the LED side. I don't think they'll stop manufacturing or do research, but will most likely slow down on research, since they can always convert over and rely on other's advances, until the day no one, or almost, wants to invest anymore on incan research. From then on, incan's survival and use will be measured by how much advance has been made in the field and that will most likely be suited for specific applications only.


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## LuxLuthor (Feb 5, 2010)

Just wait until they find that LED's cause cancer. Then you'll all be sorry. :mecry:


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## Databyter (Feb 5, 2010)

The advancements would be batteries and bulbs.

The problem is although there is a drive to advance battery design, there isn't much of a drive to improve incandescent bulb design.

But as some here have said in this thread, the existing bulbs can be far better pushed and utilized with more experimentation with regulation. 
The tech for regulation exists it's just getting it into a form factor that works, and making it attractive enough that costs are shared. The work that some CPF'ers have done in this area is inspiring.

I think that alot of people would be interested in a reliable rechargable incandescent with the ability to be pumped up several thousand white lumens on "turbo" and a usable lower voltage.

I know every time someone sees my Mag85's brightness they ask me about "what bulb are you using in that" and several have been steered to this forum.

Who wouldn't want a safe reliable form of say a Mag623 if they could buy a 2 or 3d type form factor for 100 bucks and the run time was enhanced by multimode regulation and enhanced battery design?

Of course LED's HID's and other tech still has alot of ground to gain, since they are just coming into thier own now, so the competition will be fierce, but I think Incandescents will always retain a place on at least some store shelves.

The non incandescent will always win where power efficiency is concerned, but for many typical uses a rechargable torch is good enough, most people need a light for less than a few hours before they throw it back on the charger or back in the drawer.


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## Nos (Feb 5, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> Just wait until they find that LED's cause cancer. Then you'll all be sorry. :mecry:



:green: Seriously?


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## jamesweinn (Feb 5, 2010)

LuxLuthor said:


> It's like comparing a ball point pen and a beautiful fountain pen.



yeah, good comparison. That means there is no limit for technology. We can expect more technical one, than what we are thinking about,,,

lighting towers, lighting towers solutions


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