# Surefire bulb



## thermal guy (May 23, 2020)

Anyone have a guess as to how many years down the road It will be before factory P60/P90 become a rare item?
I mean there must still me millions out there.


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## bykfixer (May 23, 2020)

Now that everything has gone LED it could be quite some time since not that many are poofing their P60 anymore.


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## archimedes (May 23, 2020)

It will take quite a while for them to become rare in my parts box, I'd expect


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## thermal guy (May 23, 2020)

bykfixer said:


> Now that everything has gone LED it could be quite some time since not that many are poofing their P60 anymore.



You know never thought of it like that before. Your probably right.


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## Kestrel (May 23, 2020)

The P90's will run out far far earlier, due to those being compatible with 2x LiIon rechargeables; i.e. guilt-free lumens.

With P60's being only compatible with 2xCR123 primaries, I don't see anybody really running enough CR123's to have much effect on inventory.


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## archimedes (May 23, 2020)

I could probably use a few more P90, but I'm pretty good on P60


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## fivemega (May 23, 2020)

Kestrel said:


> With P60's being only compatible with 2xCR123 primaries, I don't see anybody really running enough CR123's to have much effect on inventory.



*It is also possible to use P60 powering up by 4 AA Eneloops but ofcource in larger body.*


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## novice (May 24, 2020)

bykfixer said:


> Now that everything has gone LED it could be quite some time since not that many are poofing their P60 anymore.



True, although when I was new to CPF, and, thinking that I was a clever lad, I poofed _two in a row_ using a 9P, _THREE_ A14's, and _five_ freshly charged Eneloops. 5x a nominal 1.2 equals six volts, right? Ah, you're only middle-aged once...


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## bykfixer (May 24, 2020)

You mean when you were novice to flashlights there uh, novice?


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## thermal guy (May 24, 2020)

I see what you did there 😁


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## bykfixer (May 24, 2020)

archimedes said:


> It will take quite a while for them to become rare in my parts box, I'd expect



Same here. 

I did poof a Laser Products P60 accidently. Dratz. I tried to see if 4 cells would fit in a 6R and inadvertantly touched tightened down the tailcap far enough to light it. It lasted about 1/2 second at whatever volts 4 123's threw at it. (10.4-ish?)
Later it made a mighty fine host for a 3200 Yugi though.


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## thermal guy (May 25, 2020)

I blew a Laser Products R30! Paid like 25 bucks for it.Was playing around with some other bulbs and somehow stuck it in a 6P with 2 X16340’s!! Poor guy didn’t stand a chance.


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## bykfixer (May 25, 2020)

Poofed an R30? A $25 R30? I believe I would have cried. 

R30's are pretty scarce. R60's aren't common either but seemingly not as scarce as R30's.


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## thermal guy (May 30, 2020)

Well I wasn’t happy. Kept it around for months after that. Liked that it had red lettering on it lmao.


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## chillinn (Jun 17, 2020)

Not everything is P60! There are other Surefire lamps, you insensitive 3P/6P/9P clods! 

























How did that P60 lamp get in there? :shrug:


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## novice (Jun 17, 2020)

It's unfortunate that there are so few (any?) options for appropriate rechargeable cell configurations for the MN02 and MN03. I have a Fivemega 3xAA C-head that works with the P60 and P61, but if there was ever a custom 3xAA E-head body that would have worked with the MN02/MN03, I'm unaware of it.


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## DayofReckoning (Jun 17, 2020)

The MN01 can be driven off 2AA if one is fortunate enough to have a Surefire E2L AA Outdoorsman. I have to think this would be a very [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Tahoma,Calibri,Geneva,sans-serif]pleasant, fun little [/FONT]setup to use. 

Will the Malkoff 2AA bodies accept an incan E series head and incan lamp, and function properly?


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## ampdude (Jun 18, 2020)

chillinn said:


> Not everything is P60! There are other Surefire lamps, you insensitive 3P/6P/9P clods!
> 
> How did that P60 lamp get in there? :shrug:



That's not an entirely accurate representation of those lamps. The MN02 also came in a dark blue base, the MN03 in tan base, the MN10 in an orange base (MN11 pink). I believe the MN16 may have had a purple version, though I can't remember for certain right now off the top of my head. The P61 has a few variations out there, some with frosted bulbs and some without, some are marked Laser Products, and some Surefire. Most of the unfrosted ones are marked Laser Products, and most of the frosted ones are marked Surefire.



DayofReckoning said:


> The MN01 can be driven off 2AA if one is fortunate enough to have a Surefire E2L AA Outdoorsman. I have to think this would be a very [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Tahoma,Calibri,Geneva,sans-serif]pleasant, fun little [/FONT]setup to use.



Great setup, been using that for years.


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## DayofReckoning (Jun 18, 2020)

I think some certain models of those old colored bulbs are notorious for exploding in the head. Can't remember which one's, or if it was just one.

EDIT: To clarify, it was an M-Series bulb.


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## Bullzeyebill (Jun 18, 2020)

DayofReckoning said:


> The MN01 can be driven off 2AA if one is fortunate enough to have a Surefire E2L AA Outdoorsman. I have to think this would be a very pleasant, fun little setup to use.
> 
> Will the Malkoff 2AA bodies accept an incan E series head and incan lamp, and function properly?



I run the MN01 using my Malkoff 2AA biody. Works fine. Usinfg Eneloops, of course, and will run with primary AA's

Bill


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## chillinn (Jun 18, 2020)

novice said:


> It's unfortunate that there are so few (any?) options for appropriate rechargeable cell options for the MN02 and MN03.



They both work in single cell Li-ion secondary setup. Many have said this is bad for these lamps, causes darkening glass they say, shortens the life of the lamp they say. But I have never noticed any such thing. Maybe that might happen with a single primary, but a single Li-ion secondary voltage discharge curve is within the same voltage range as that of two Lithium primaries. The worst thing I have seen about running them this way on a single Li-ion secondary is the color temperature gets too warm... but you'll only notice that for short time until the natural white point recalibrator in our brains kicks in. MN03 are far more plentiful than MN01, so I would wager most used E1e you find will have a MN03 in it rather than the stock MN01.




ampdude said:


> That's not an entirely accurate representation of those lamps. The MN02 also came in a dark blue base...



I have never seen one as light blue as in that picture, and I have thought about this before and suspect the image is color-uncorrected simply to show that it is blue, otherwise it might look black in a photo.




DayofReckoning said:


> I think some certain models of those old colored bulbs are notorious for exploding in the head. Can't remember which one's, or if it was just one.
> 
> EDIT: To clarify, it was an M-Series bulb.



I have been running MN02 on a single Li-ion secondary for dozens and dozens of hours, days and days, really, have not seen even one MN02 die, but I am possibly slightly under-driving them. I have ed MN03 many times, always my mistake, absent-mindedly using 2 Li-ion secondaries. I have killed 2x MN01, no mistakes, bought used and I used them until they just stopped working. I have never seen any of the MN explode, but it's not like I'm a pro or anything, no extreme usage with recommended cells. I like to underdrive.


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## ampdude (Jun 19, 2020)

DayofReckoning said:


> I think some certain models of those old colored bulbs are notorious for exploding in the head. Can't remember which one's, or if it was just one.
> 
> EDIT: To clarify, it was an M-Series bulb.



I believe it was the pink MN11. I can't remember for sure. I don't use most of the colored base MN lamps. I just keep them around as collector accessories. I normally only use the black base MN lamps, I think I have one orange base MN10 that I use sometimes and it has been flawless, but it almost never gets used over the years.



chillinn said:


> I have never seen one as light blue as in that picture, and I have thought about this before and suspect the image is color-uncorrected simply to show that it is blue, otherwise it might look black in a photo.



That's odd as most of the MN02's are light blue base. Only the earlier MN02's were the darker blue, the later ones where always light blue. I have plenty of examples of both and can post pics. It is definitely a thing.


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## chillinn (Jun 20, 2020)

ampdude said:


> That's odd as most of the MN02's are light blue base. Only the earlier MN02's were the darker blue, the later ones where always light blue. I have plenty of examples of both and can post pics. It is definitely a thing.



Not so odd, as I am not experienced, haven't ever been experienced, having only seen about nearly a dozen E first hand, only one Outdoorsman, and the 5 or so vintage replacement MN02 (so 6 total) I have collected, all are dark blue. This is not a representative sample. But I like accuracy, so it is actually good to know my reasoning was incorrect, the image is accurate, and there are lots of MN02 out there that are light blue... so I won't be stunned if/when I see one.


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## bykfixer (Jun 20, 2020)

Some of my E lights have what appears to be MN03 assemblies (white type). A tear drop executive and a couple E2E lights. My E2e has the dark blue MN02 assembly. I keep those original since they are shelf queens. All were acquired 2nd hand so I do not know if the original bulb is in each one. 

My other E lights are users with defender bodies and scout tailcaps. They are either outfitted with Lumens Factory bulb assemblies of SingLED's.


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## ampdude (Jun 21, 2020)

A lot of the teardrop E2's came with tan base MN03's, but I think later on there were a few with the white base. It could be original. I think my original E2-BK came with a white base. Haven't owned that light in a long time though, so I can't remember for certain.


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## chillinn (Jun 22, 2020)

So due credit where credit is due, Surefire developed the most amazing incan lamp assemblies for the most amazing incan flashlights, and I expect will never be matched or beaten, and if the 2 of 3 types pf MN0x I have used (not counting the MN03 I irresponsibly abused, but including MA02) are representative of most of their incan assemblies, they last a very long time, I expect very often as long as the flashlight is in use before retired to the shelf to admire. 

And this makes me question Surefire's quick retirement of incan. Surefire must have invested in considerable R&D to arguably become the single best producer of incan flashlights... ever. So the industry shifted to LED, and except for NOS and what's still in the warehouse, stopped selling incan. Their LED may have rapidly become impressively bright, but many point out they are pretty much all too cool without much thought put into what a light needs to be, with no apparent exploration into purposes of accurate color rendition.

I think they made an obvious and huge mistake. There is no reason I see for dropping incan for LED, rather than ramping down and having a more boutique incan catalog, and LED and incan produced and sold side by side. Nothing would stop those incan from still selling at their premium prices. It appears they didn't even really do any market research, and this was just a knee jerk reaction without much rational consideration to compete with China and Japan flashlight producers. I would not call Surefire LED ordinary in the details, but in the large picture, they are exactly ordinary (ignoring their ruggedness, which should not be done) and very expensive LED flashlights. I see it is all as very crazy, taking their own legs out from under themselves, when they could have gone on forever as the last producer of incan flashlights, and held those sales and profits without much issue.


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## bykfixer (Jun 22, 2020)

LED lights far out sold incan when SureFire pulled the plug. 

Much of the R&D put into SureFire bulb assemblies was for ensuring they were uber reliable in adverse conditions in order to sell by the million to military and law enforcement. When those contracts expired SureFire down sized, like a lot. By then the mighty LED had taken over the consumer market. SureFire had all but turned over operations to a big corparate investor who looked at numbers on a computer screen and decided to turn production away from any more incan R&D.
It was a good decision for investors but not good for flashaholics. 

When PK left in 2013 that was pretty much the end of the incan light development at SureFire. But they had begun to focus on stuff like the Vampire, the U2, Kroma etc and decided the future for their military and law enforcement buyers was the cool white LED and infrared since that is where the future of military style lighting tools was headed. To this day that still remains the case and probably always will until something better than LED's takes over. 

When it was shouted out loud here at CPF that incan lights were no longer in the SureFire catalog, it was time to stock up while prices and supply were good. I found lots of bulb assemblies except for the A2. Those had already become fairly scarce back in 2016 and if you found them they were $35-50. 

Thank goodness for Lumens Factory.


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## chillinn (Jun 24, 2020)

I inconsiderately made the all too common mistake of assuming all customers were me, forgetting it could be successfully argued Surefire only has 1 or 2 customers: military, and to lesser extent, LEO. I wonder exactly how distant the margins were individually and en masse between Surefire incan and LED.




bykfixer said:


> probably always will until something better than LED's takes over.



I suspect we know what those are right now, but when or if they will take over has a lot of variables, and I speak of lasers and, of course, incan. LED has more or less reached, if not the theoretical limits of its brightness and efficiency, then the practical limits, while incan, at least, can actually theoretically and practically outperform both measures (doing so by recycling the normally lost heat into light, if I understand correctly what MIT did).




bykfixer said:


> Thank goodness for Lumens Factory.



Amen to this savior (and FiveMega, and newer-comer Tad Customs) of decent eye-friendly enlightenment (fwiw, tongues of fire are incan light sources).


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## Bullzeyebill (Jun 24, 2020)

The good thing that Surfire did was to to add Halogen to there Xenon bulbs, not just the high end lumen bulbs , but to their lower amp rating bulbs. That is why the last so long.


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## DayofReckoning (Jun 25, 2020)

Surefire bulbs are weird. Yes, they are the most durable, reliable, longest lasting lamps in existence. Yes, I have had lamps last an ungodly amount of time. Yes, I trust them damn near as much as I do many LED lights.​
But at the same time, for a company who prided itself on engineering superior beam quality, a lot, not all, but a lot of Surefire Lamps have kind of crappy hotspots and shapes. If you compare Mark's Lumens Factory lamps hotspots to many Surefire hotspots you will find Lumens Factory produce rounder, cleaner, more [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Tahoma,Calibri,Geneva,sans-serif]symmetrical[/FONT] beam in most cases. I think my Tads with 3712 in the E2E has a cleaner beam than the Surefire MN03. To add insult to injury, most, if not all Surefire lamps are tip frosted, where output is lost, and whereas Lumens Factory lamps are not.


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## ampdude (Jun 26, 2020)

DayofReckoning said:


> Surefire bulbs are weird. Yes, they are the most durable, reliable, longest lasting lamps in existence. Yes, I have had lamps last an ungodly amount of time. Yes, I trust them damn near as much as I do many LED lights.​
> But at the same time, for a company who prided itself on engineering superior beam quality, a lot, not all, but a lot of Surefire Lamps have kind of crappy hotspots and shapes. If you compare Mark's Lumens Factory lamps hotspots to many Surefire hotspots you will find Lumens Factory produce rounder, cleaner, more [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Tahoma,Calibri,Geneva,sans-serif]symmetrical[/FONT] beam in most cases. I think my Tads with 3712 in the E2E has a cleaner beam than the Surefire MN03. To add insult to injury, most, if not all Surefire lamps are tip frosted, where output is lost, and whereas Lumens Factory lamps are not.




It depends on the lamp's focal point and the geometry of the reflector. Some SF P60/D26 style lamps are focused poorly, but that's not a common thing. And I suspect some of the few I've seen were due to end user abuse as almost all of them were used examples. And for example you can also get an E-series bezel that is on the far end of acceptable specs one way, and an MN lamp assembly that is on the other end of the acceptable specs. You might end up with a lemon in that case. Just like there are plenty of E-series heads out there in all different levels of orange peel. Some throw like a laser, and other's are room flooders. Factory tolerances between certain heads, bodies, and tailcaps also come into play when it comes to reliability. Surefire legos don't always work the best if you put the wrong parts together.


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## bykfixer (Jun 26, 2020)

When I aim a Tads bulb at a wall the beam looks better. 

When walking in the woods on a moonlit night and I hear something rustle in the bushes, the shape of a hot spot is not on my mind as much as "will the bulb poof this time?" I those situations I prefer to have a SureFire bulb in my light.


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## fivemega (Jun 26, 2020)

DayofReckoning said:


> Surefire bulbs are weird. Yes, they are the most durable, reliable, longest lasting lamps in existence. Yes, I have had lamps last an ungodly amount of time.


*Most of Surefire bulbs are designed based on maximum possible durability and to use with primary cells.*


DayofReckoning said:


> not all, but a lot of Surefire Lamps have kind of crappy hotspots and shapes. If you compare Mark's Lumens Factory lamps hotspots to many Surefire hotspots you will find Lumens Factory produce rounder, cleaner, more symmetrical beam in most cases. I think my Tads with 3712 in the E2E has a cleaner beam than the Surefire MN03. To add insult to injury, most, if not all Surefire lamps are tip frosted, where output is lost, and whereas Lumens Factory lamps are not.


*You are comparing two different things. Surefire designed for military use while LF designed for majority of CPF members and others. Surefire designed bulbs for use with primary (3 volt) bulbs while LF bulbs are for (3.7 volt) rechargeables. So two compared bulbs have different voltage, (higher voltage=longer fillament) different current, (higher current=thicker fillament) different fillament winding and shape, different calculated bulb life and differently OP reflectors (if reflectorized). So obviously they will have different hot spot and spill.*


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## ampdude (Jun 27, 2020)

bykfixer said:


> When I aim a Tads bulb at a wall the beam looks better.
> 
> When walking in the woods on a moonlit night and I hear something rustle in the bushes, the shape of a hot spot is not on my mind as much as "will the bulb poof this time?" I those situations I prefer to have a SureFire bulb in my light.



In addition to what you just stated, I don't really trust bi-pin bulbs for serious purposes either. So many of them are just too loose in the socket and can come out with the wrong handling or wrong drop. They're just not my thing normally. But the new Maglites only come with bi-pins and the adapter.


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## bykfixer (Jun 27, 2020)

You can put a slight kink with needle nose pliers inline of the wire of the bipin or spread them out a wee bit to get a better grip. When new a bi-pin holder usually has a good ability to hold the lamp, but as bulbs are replaced the holes tend to become slightly over sized. 

On one of my old minimags I put in a Terra Lux LED and did not like it. Well it over sized the holes enough that the maglite bulb would just fall out and even failed to light at times. I put a couple of kinks in the wire and pushed it in the holder and that worked. Ideal? Oh heavens no, especially if in the field at night and the bulb poofs. It's like trying to tie a fishing knot at night at that point. 

None of my Tads have poofed yet so I do not know if the holes on his adapters over size or not. But when I experimented with a few bulb/voltage combos in an incan ML25 maglite the bulb I settled on did not have issues being loose. Perhaps that bi pin holder has a flexable covering at the entry point of the bulb holder? 
My old incan Streamlight TL2 and Strion have a sorta grip ring in the reflector where the bulb goes into the reflector that grabs the bulb. 

But SureFire assemblies are the way to go for the ultimate durability. They can be serviced. A P60 for example can be disassembled and new bulb put in provided the bulb legs are not pre-cut like Streamlight, Maglite or Tads bulbs. Some here have used Yujis in P60 modules to convert a P60 to a 3 volt LED to be used in 2x AA lights like a Rayovac Indestructable or a Five Mega 3P style body. I have one in a 3x123 (using 2aa) Vital Gear light.


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## ampdude (Jun 28, 2020)

The two I had issue with were new. One was Streamlight, the other Maglite. Just don't trust bipins for serious stuff. At all. The entire concept seems pretty hokey.


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## Monocrom (Jul 13, 2020)

Might take quite awhile. But why chance it? I stay stock up NOW! Especially if there's a certain inca. SF model that you especially love.


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## wagonicfolding (Jul 25, 2020)

Hey guys my dad just gave me his old surefire 6P and looks like it just needs a new bulb and some batteries.


After a little research it looks like this is one of the more popular flashlights to modify so looks like I lucked out.


I definitely want to replace the bulb with an LED but was wondering which I should get since there are a ton of options for a P60 drop-in.


I’d like to be under $20 for the bulb but it seems like Malkoff is the favorite by far and on sale for $45 right now. Is the Malkoff M61L that much better than the ones for $10-$20?


Lastly, the battery. Should I just continue to use 123 batteries or is there a preferred rechargeable battery method? I don’t want to bore it out or anything like that.


This will be mainly used around the house and garage and my only compact flashlight. I have a big maglite I keep in my truck and a headlamp for hiking.


Sorry for the long post but looks like I found a new interest to spend my money on.


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## Not So Bright (Jul 26, 2020)

Welcome to CPF. Malkoff is worth the price difference. You will get great run time with the M61L. You can use a 16650 rechargeable cell in place of cr123 batteries. 

With Malkoff you get the best customer service and warrenty in the business.


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## bykfixer (Jul 26, 2020)

A Malkoff M61 NL (neutral low) will give you about 5 hours runtime on a pair of CR123's at about 3x the output of the original bulb and slowly dim for a couple of hours after that. 
Those are pretty popular around here as the tint is just a smidge whiter than a light bulb.

Way, way, way more durable than those $10-15 LED modules.


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## Monocrom (Jul 30, 2020)

Malkoff is definitely worth it. You'll likely get a tiny gap in between the bezel and body of the light when you screw the bezel back on. But Gene did mention years ago that the gap is supposed to be there. 

FiveMega used to have some sweet LED drop-ins that left no gap. My custom modded SureFire 9P has one of those in it. But I don't believe he makes LED drop-ins anymore for older SureFire lights. 

Many of the better LED drop-ins for SF lights have pretty much fallen off of the face of the planet. There just isn't that much demand for them nowadays.


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## ampdude (Jul 31, 2020)

Yes, I have some P60L's still in the package. I wish there was a NEWER warm tinted HCRI drop-in out there like that where you have no bezel gap, but about the only place that has produced anything like that is Surefire with the P60L. I was pondering what gasket to use in order to bridge the gap, but haven't looked into it. It's mostly a cosmetic issue as the head should still be fairly water resistant as the thread gasket is still there. Nowadays LED's are far more efficient and there isn't as much of a heat issue, so I really wish someone would produce a 3.6V-7.4V P60L type drop-in around the 100-200 lumens range with a warm emitter and HCRI. A 3V primary battery drainer version would be nice too!


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## archimedes (Aug 1, 2020)

Hey @ampdude ... Lumens Factory has some that might be pretty close to meeting your list of criteria above


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## ampdude (Aug 2, 2020)

archimedes said:


> Hey @ampdude ... Lumens Factory has some that might be pretty close to meeting your list of criteria above



I did have a Lumens Factory LED when they first came out back in 2008. It went bad and didn't fit my criteria and Mark handled it for me. Can you link me by PM to a LF LED drop in that is like what I described where the head can turn all the way down with no gap? I would appreciate it. I would be willing to sacrifice a couple P60L's to Mark if he can engineer them to have a medium output, warm, HCRI led. I understand the P60L design is not conducive to heat issues, but I think with modern LED technology there can be a really nice output with a setup like that.


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## R.W.D. (Aug 2, 2020)

I've been buying up some P60s for my SF 6PLED and the reason is because I never appreciated that crappy led drop in that SF made so now its just an incan for me.

I've been buying incandescent everything everywhere and people are either happy to get rid of them or really confused and try to explain that "there are led flashlights now that are better on batteries" obviously I know but I don't tell them because they all say something different 🤣🤣 

I have been carrying and using my SF 6PLED daily now unless I swap it for my incandescent ASP Triad which is a much more interesting light imo.


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## archimedes (Aug 2, 2020)

ampdude said:


> .... Can you link me by PM to a LF LED drop in that is like what I described where the head can turn all the way down with no gap? I would appreciate it....



Sorry, I don't have a link handy. A websearch might work though, based on the info in my post.


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## ampdude (Aug 3, 2020)

Thanks archimedes, I'll check into it. Just bought a couple HID's, and I do love my Malkoff's, and have too many of those, so I'll see what I can do to get one of those.


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## 325addict (Aug 9, 2020)

I have 3 C2 Centurions and 2 C3 Centurions, all running P90s. The one that sees use most, at work, has been there since... forever (more than 10 years I think) and EVERYBODY in the company uses it. Powered from 2X AW 17500s. You won't believe it: still on its FIRST P90 LA!! Its glass enelope is pitch black like the night and indeed, compared to a fresh one, gives less light, but hey, for the close-up work we use it for, still plenty of light. Never expected it to last that long, so I bought 6 pieces of brand new P90s long ago. Now that they have been discontinued, I'll treat them like small treasures ;-)


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