# Lubrication



## Kingfisher (Dec 1, 2008)

Is Miltec OK/safe to use on flashlights?


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## foxtrot29 (Dec 1, 2008)

Only use KY.


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## scottm (Dec 1, 2008)




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## Kingfisher (Dec 1, 2008)

Smart arse!:thumbsdow


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## scottm (Dec 1, 2008)

I've learned quickly that new threads about lube are verboten here, but I don't see any current threads on it. I do have some questions on what I've found in search, I'll wait to see if this gets locked.


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## Kingfisher (Dec 1, 2008)

Is it because they are very childish and giggle if that hear something that can have a double meaning?


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## scottm (Dec 1, 2008)

Kingfisher said:


> Is it because they are very childish and giggle if that hear something that can mean something rude?


 
If that's the reason I may not last long here.

The FAQ about lubrication is one short post, no discussion. One moderator issued a strong statement that only silicone grease should be used and further discussion was not welcome. Perhaps that's good enough.


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## Kingfisher (Dec 1, 2008)

I just did a search for miltec because I have enough to last a lifetime....and I don't live on here like some geeks!


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## Zatoichi (Dec 1, 2008)

Kingfisher said:


> I just did a search for miltec because I have enough to last a lifetime....and I don't live on here like some geeks!



I was just about to reply, but forget it! I'm off to watch Star Trek instead.


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## DM51 (Dec 1, 2008)

Lube threads are not "verboten". There are various problems with them, though. One is that there used to be about 3 new ones every week. In closing/merging most of those, it may have looked like they were being forbidden, which was not the case. More recently, there have been fewer of them.

Another problem was with members making irresponsible crackpot suggestions. Some of the more idiotic suggestions wrecked otherwise sensible discussions, again sometimes leading to thread closures.

In the "threads of interest" sticky there is a thread called Lubrication of threads & O-rings. Have you read it? Be honest! It really contains the essentials of what you need to know, but that is not to say there is no further room for SENSIBLE discussion.

Posts 2, 3 and 4 above do not make a very promising start to this thread, but we'll see how it goes.


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## scottm (Dec 1, 2008)

heh, ten posts and none really on topic.

Yes, that's the FAQ post I mentioned. Maybe I'm missing something, but it's just one post, not much discussion. Mention is made of post #18, but I only see one post.

One thing I'm curious about is conductivity I've seen mentioned in my searching. Is that thermal or electrical conductivity? I'm building a machine now that can't be anodized because anodizing is an insulator and will build up static. These flashlights have thick (at least .002") ceramic anodizing on their threads, is there really a need for them to have electrical conductivity in their threads? Is heat transfer through the threads really a factor?

I have a pair of nearly new Ray-O-Vac 4W lights that the O-rings have dissolved on, apparently you can still get O-rings that aren't buna-N.


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## Kingfisher (Dec 1, 2008)

Apologies for No4 Mod, maybe I should have waited a bit longer for a sensible response. Think I’ll pop back in a couple of years!


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## nzgunnie (Dec 1, 2008)

Have you tried the search feature?

'Lubrication' in the Google search box above gives pages of hits, including posts about alternatives to nyogel, using WD40, using vasoline, deoxit and that was just in the first two pages of returns.

There are of course posts that don't look particularly relevent, but there are a good number that are.


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## IHA (Dec 1, 2008)

Hello Kingfisher,

I dont think Militec-1 is a good lubricant to be used in a light, but great to be used in a knife/firearm. Nyogel is the thing to have IMO


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## Yoda4561 (Dec 1, 2008)

No, don't use militec. The additional lubrication won't do any good and it has a tendency to attack certain plastics/rubber components.


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## foxtrot29 (Dec 1, 2008)

foxtrot29 said:


> Only use KY.




In the spirit of posting something constructive, since it looks like this thread might survive:

I use the radio shack PTFE lube that comes in with the needle tip. I have had 100% success with this lube. The only other lube I've used was a silicone lube made for RC cars... Think it's made by traxx or something -- anyway, it was good too, but not as good as the PTFE.


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## Zatoichi (Dec 1, 2008)

Nyogel seems highly recommended here. If you prefer a cheap UK source for silicone grease, search heinnie.com for 'nextorch silicone grease', that's £1.95 with free shipping. It's the same stuff I use for torches and wristwatch gaskets.


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## tedjanxt (Dec 1, 2008)

Heh, I'm going to be crucified, I think...

I don't use lube.

Not the threads, not the o-rings, nothin...

Fresh out the box, I pop a battery in and go.

I have seen no ill effects in any of my lights (some 4+ years old now)

I will continue to forgo the lube.



*disclaimer* I do, however, run a threadcleaner across the threads every so often (6 months or so) 

It's like a die, only sized to clean threads, not cut them.

Takes out any oxidation buildup...


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## scottm (Dec 1, 2008)

tedjanxt said:


> I will continue to forgo the lube.


I've owned a lot of flashlights, including Maglights I found outdoors, never lubed one and never had threads or O-ring fail on them. But now I'm carrying a light in my pocket, and using it every day, and I paid a bit more than sane people normally do.



tedjanxt said:


> I do, however, run a threadcleaner across the threads every so often (6 months or so)


 
A thread file? That's tool steel, not as hard as anodize, but can scratch it. What are you cleaning out that a toothbrush wouldn't get? Is is taking off some anodize? Bare aluminum threads will gall up with regular use, especially without lube, that seems risky.


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## jimmy1970 (Dec 2, 2008)

I just yesterday discovered the perfect grease. Its called 'TRI-FLOW High Performance Synthetic Grease'. US made, its a synthetic grease formulated with P.T.F.E. Its non-staining, cloudy clear colour if that makes sense and has the perfect consistancy for provide a smooth threading action and it doesn't stiffen up when left for a day or two. It also boasts a water proofing ability and is suitable for 'O' rings. 

James....


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## BabyDoc (Dec 2, 2008)

jimmy1970 said:


> I just yesterday discovered the perfect grease. Its called 'TRI-FLOW High Performance Synthetic Grease'. US made, its a synthetic grease formulated with P.T.F.E. Its non-staining, cloudy clear colour if that makes sense and has the perfect consistancy for provide a smooth threading action and it doesn't stiffen up when left for a day or two. It also boasts a water proofing ability and is suitable for 'O' rings.
> 
> James....


 
This sounds exactly like the Radio Shack PTFE Oiler. The Radio Shack lubricant doesn't freeze up either with disuse and the back of the bubble pack states it is also suitable for O rings. If not the same, I wonder how they compare, although I am quite happy with the Radio Shack lubricant.


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## Buck91 (Dec 2, 2008)

To the OP: I believe Militec-1 is/contains protoleum distillates and thus would degreade o-rings over time (whether quickly or slowly I cannot say).

To jimmy1970: Is Tri-Flow grease rubber safe? If so, very cool. I know TriFlow oil has all sorts of stuff in it including petroleum distallates which is bad for rubbers, though.


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## Yoda4561 (Dec 2, 2008)

I'm not sure if it's militec's base oil or the chlorinated hydrocarbons it contains, but when I first got a bottle I used it on EVERYTHING that had a pivot/hinge/etc. About half of the things I used it on that had plastic parts ended up cracked or broken about 3 months later, the other half were made of G10 or zytel.


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## D-Dog (Dec 2, 2008)

I have used Nyogel (760G for surfaces which need to conduct) for the better portion of the last two years now with no ill effects on any o-ring.


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## chmsam (Dec 2, 2008)

Yes, threads like this can be just like multivitamins -- one a day. However, by searching CPF for info on lubes and o-rings you should be able to find the thread that my old post was in originally. Also, it is very productive and easy to use the search CPF function. We all need to do it more often before making an original post.

**Edit -- by the way it took me about 1 minute to find my "post #18" thread about flashlight maintenance, so it really isn't hard. Hints: use the keywords MSDS, lube, and SF, and it was posted about a year ago. A good exercise for searching.

Now I will get on my soapbox for awhile and do a rant.

Will using petroleum based lubes damage _some_ parts of _some_ lights _some_ of the time? Yes, no doubt about it -- some of the time. It isn't like any light will instantly fall apart in your hands, but an o-ring failure can not only cause moisture to get into the light but could potentially cause the light to fail. Lights can be life savers, and I for one don't see how a small extra cost and amount of effort is not worth something that could save someone's butt. 

Do all lubes contain petroleum products? Nope. Check on the web for an MSDS to see what is actually in the stuff. I do not trust just what is on the label. I never trust what someone else says about a product either. Shoot, I am old and poor and have learned the hard way too many times about not checking things out for myself. Do what you want for yourself, but then again hearing "I told you so" is not much fun in the dark. 

Will the flashlight police come knocking on my door if I do not properly maintain my lights? Of course not, but yet one more time, no one likes hearing "I told you so" when they are left in the dark.

If the o-rings are OK with petroleum why should I even consider using anything else on them or other parts of the light? Well, petroleum products tend to be wet and can be messier than other products. That requires care and clean up. Also, most petroleum lubes actually attract dust and grit and therefore can make threads stick or feel like they are grinding. For some cases there are better choices. Remember too that lubes for lights might be usable on other things so the cost can be spread out.

I don't know how to put it better than this -- would you use a hammer instead of a screwdriver? Would you use olive oil in the crankcase of your car? Then it's probably better to use the right stuff and give the right care to your lights in order to significantly lessen the possibility of having a light quit working. Nobody I have ever met has been exempt from the long arm of Murhpy's Law.

No one is going to beat you about the head and body just for using a lube that might eat your o-rings, and probably no one really cares all that much. Well, except that sooner or later we (the collective "we") all have to listen to someone complain that something broke down and it's usually after we just told them about the potential problem so now we have to listen to them because they did not listen to us. I find that ending up spending money to fix or replace something that was avoidable really ticks me off, how about you? Then again there are plenty of farmers around here where I live who'd rather take the time to file a bolt end off square than find the proper size wrench, so your mileage may vary. I'm just tired of hearing folks say, "I never, ever force it, I just get me a bigger hammer."

End of rant.


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## Archer-Ca (Dec 2, 2008)

Being a newbie I figure silicone oil for RC shock dampeners would be fine. It's 100% silicone and suppose to be ok on o-rings as far as I know.:thinking:

Norman


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## Buck91 (Dec 2, 2008)

Archer-Ca said:


> Being a newbie I figure silicone oil for RC shock dampeners would be fine. It's 100% and suppose to be ok on o-rings as far as I know.:thinking:
> 
> Norman


 

Sounds reasonable. I have been using Sil-Glyde from Napa Autoparts for years now. Its designed for weather stripping an brake caliper mounting bolts. Perfect for lights!


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## scottm (Dec 2, 2008)

I'm puzzled why petroleum products are damaging O-rings. The most common O-ring material is Buna-N, you'll find these O-rings all over your car: in your engine, transmission, axles, cooling system. They're used in oil and hydraulic systems all over the world. They cost maybe a penny. For a few more pennies you could upgrade to Viton O-rings, a little more impervious to chemicals but less durable to mechanical abrasion. It's possible these high-end flashlight makers have gone out of their way to use something cheaper, maybe butyl rubber? If so, I'll replace mine with buna. They come in packs of 100, I may be out a couple bucks, and I'll toss the O-rings every time I clean the threads.

Parker is one of the worlds top hydraulics makers, their O-ring lube is petroleum based. Dow Corning makes a silicon-based lube, that's what I used when I used to make and install buna O-rings on industrial vacuum chambers. It's expensive, and basically the same as dielectric grease.


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## Zatoichi (Dec 2, 2008)

The o-rings and gaskets on diving equipment and watches are also lubricated with silicone grease rather than petroleum products. I don't fully understand why, but I don't think it's anything to do with saving pennies.


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## scottm (Dec 2, 2008)

Zatoichi said:


> The o-rings and gaskets on diving equipment and watches are also lubricated with silicone grease rather than petroleum products. I don't fully understand why, but I don't think it's anything to do with saving pennies.


 
In aviation, petroleum products are never allowed anywhere near our oxygen equipment. The latex oxygen masks and other materials could be damaged, but more important, oil in a pure oxygen environment tends to burst into flames. Petroleum fumes aren't especially good for you either. It's the same with hospital breathing equipment, welding equipment, and other oxygen equipment. Silicone is probably safer for a wider variety of applications. It's likely the dive business simply follows the practices of other breathing air and compressed air businesses.

One area you don't want silicone around is any painting or industrial coatings area. You won't find silicone spray in many auto repair shops, it's death to getting a good paint job. I used to design optical thin film coatings for LCD display glass, we had to be very careful with the silicone we used on the O-rings of our vacuum chambers.


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## jimmy1970 (Dec 2, 2008)

Buck91 said:


> To the OP: I believe Militec-1 is/contains protoleum distillates and thus would degreade o-rings over time (whether quickly or slowly I cannot say).
> 
> To jimmy1970: Is Tri-Flow grease rubber safe? If so, very cool. I know TriFlow oil has all sorts of stuff in it including petroleum distallates which is bad for rubbers, though.


 
The Tri-Flow grease is fully synthetic - safe for use in meat & poultry plants if that means anything
The tube mentions Gaskets and 'O' rings safe so no worries.

James...


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## Buck91 (Dec 3, 2008)

Interesting, especially since PTFE is not exactly safe for ingestion (AFAIK).

Good news about the o-rings, though.


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## Zatoichi (Dec 3, 2008)

scottm said:


> oil in a pure oxygen environment tends to burst into flames. Petroleum fumes aren't especially good for you either. It's the same with hospital breathing equipment, welding equipment, and other oxygen equipment. Silicone is probably safer for a wider variety of applications. It's likely the dive business simply follows the practices of other breathing air and compressed air businesses.



Interesting, I didn't know about that danger. 

I believe silicone grease is also much better for water resistance, and can handle high temperatures. Both attributes may make it suitable for torches.


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## scottm (Dec 4, 2008)

I just heard back from Fenix, they do use butyl rubber O-rings, so no petroleum products. I have lubricants that say "O-ring safe" but contain petroleum distillates, as chmsam mentioned. Straight silicone like Dow-Corning O-ring lube or dielectric grease should be fine if used minimally so as not to attract and collect grit in the threads and sealing surfaces.

It sounds like they chose butyl for it's mechanical properties, not for price or convenience. Butyl is better for certain applications, they believe this is one of them.


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## chmsam (Dec 4, 2008)

I am sure there is an engineer or two on CPF who'd be able to chime in with a few reasons for using pure silicone lubes and greases on o-rings, so I won't even attempt it. I figure if it cannot harm anything (well at least as far as I have seen in everything I have read to this point) and is recommended for several different o-rings and other uses, I'd rather be safe than sorry. For my lights and other equipment I have seen pure silicone recommended or even specified and have yet to see any cautions against using it as long as it is used according to directions.

Also, there is a reason to check the MSDS on lubes -- over the years I have seen many posts that say that thus and such a lube contains no petroleum products, but when checking the MSDS for the lube you can see petrochemicals are clearly listed. Again, better safe than sorry, so I check every time.


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## unique (Dec 4, 2008)

I'm going to purchase this http://www.lighthound.com/NyoGel-760G-10-gm-tube_p_127-1343.html for my fenix lights to lube the o-rings and threads. from my understanding, the thinner the threads the less thick the lube needs to be?
Before I make my purchase I would love to double check!

edit: well, I'm not the one to wait around so after my own research I decided this will be the best for my lights (threads and o-rings) and have just purchased it 

Will follow all instructions when applying it.


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## scottm (Dec 4, 2008)

I looked at the Nye website, these lubricants are PAO based. Poly-Alpha-Olefin is a hydrocarbon, not good for butyl rubber. Your website recommends it for flashlights, so what can I say, I'm not a chemical engineer, just mechanical.

This makes me wonder about my recommendation to use dielectric grease, maybe it's not all silicone-based as I thought. This is clearly a dielectric grease.

I've used Dow O-ring lube for many years at work, it is compatible with butyl, causes slight swelling of the O-ring according to their website http://www.ellsworth.com/display/productdetail.html?productid=341&Tab=Vendors It's kind of sticky stuff, the opposite of what I'd like for an outdoor application.


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## BabyDoc (Dec 4, 2008)

unique said:


> I'm going to purchase this http://www.lighthound.com/NyoGel-760G-10-gm-tube_p_127-1343.html for my fenix lights to lube the o-rings and threads. from my understanding, the thinner the threads the less thick the lube needs to be?
> Before I make my purchase I would love to double check!
> 
> edit: well, I'm not the one to wait around so after my own research I decided this will be the best for my lights (threads and o-rings) and have just purchased it
> ...


 
Nyogel works well as a thin lube, but I hate the way it turns black within a day of applying it to the threads. While I don't think this means anything, I can't tell when to reapply lube because the threads look dirty even when they are not. The Radio Shack PFTE oiler is a bargain at under $5. It is very thin, very adherrent, and doesn't change colors over time. Moreover, it doesn't stiffen even when you haven't used the light for days. The Nyogel, does.


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## scottm (Dec 4, 2008)

According to Radio Shack, their PTFE oiler is also hydrocarbon (petrochemical) based, again not good for butyl rubber. Things aren't looking good for alternatives to silicone.


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## defloyd77 (Dec 4, 2008)

In lights that are applicable, can teflon tape be a substitute for lube, ie lights with their threads anodised or polymer lights?


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## Yoda4561 (Dec 4, 2008)

Teflon tape should be fine for threads. It's not really a replacement for lubrication, but should help in water resistance in lights that have marginal or no o-rings. It doesn't do anything for the o-rings the light has though, which to me is the main point of lube in the first place.


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## BabyDoc (Dec 4, 2008)

scottm said:


> According to Radio Shack, their PTFE oiler is also hydrocarbon (petrochemical) based, again not good for butyl rubber. Things aren't looking good for alternatives to silicone.


 
According to Radio Shack PTE oiler package back, it IS suitable for rubber gasgets. So if there are hydrocarbons in it, I would imagine it makes up an extremely small percentage of it. Furthermore, nobody has reported a problem with it on their flashlight O rings here. It could be because most flashlight O rings are NOT butyl rubber. Furthermore, silicone grease gets stiff when cold, and also turns black. I won't use it except on loose fitting 0 rings where I am concerned about water tightness. Most of the O rings on new lights are too tight. That's why I lube them to begin with.


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## scottm (Dec 4, 2008)

BabyDoc said:


> According to Radio Shack PTE oiler package back, it IS suitable for rubber gasgets. So if there are hydrocarbons in it, I would imagine it makes up an extremely small percentage of it. Furthermore, nobody has reported a problem with it on their flashlight O rings here. It could be because most flashlight O rings are NOT butyl rubber. Furthermore, silicone grease gets stiff when cold, and also turns black. I won't use it except on loose fitting 0 rings where I am concerned about water tightness. Most of the O rings on new lights are too tight. That's why I lube them to begin with.


 
Well, Parker O-ring lube is suitable for O-rings, just not butyl rubber O-rings. So "suitable" doesn't mean suitable for all. I checked with Fenix and my O-rings are butyl because it holds up better in this application than buna-N O-rings. It's probably the preferred material for flashlight O-rings. Based on reports here of lubricants damaging O-rings, I suspect they are mostly butyl.

Radio Shack PTFE is 85-95% hydrocarbons, it's oil with teflon in it.

I wonder about the silicone turning black. Black anodizing is dyed black, I've had to send new parts back to anodizing when someone cleaned them too aggressively with solvents and took out the dye/ink. Perhaps the dye is leaching into the silicone carrier.


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## 1996alnl (Dec 4, 2008)

Kingfisher said:


> Apologies for No4 Mod, maybe I should have waited a bit longer for a sensible response. Think I’ll pop back in a couple of years!


 
:mecry:


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## BabyDoc (Dec 4, 2008)

scottm said:


> Well, Parker O-ring lube is suitable for O-rings, just not butyl rubber O-rings. So "suitable" doesn't mean suitable for all. I checked with Fenix and my O-rings are butyl because it holds up better in this application than buna-N O-rings. It's probably the preferred material for flashlight O-rings. Based on reports here of lubricants damaging O-rings, I suspect they are mostly butyl.
> 
> Radio Shack PTFE is 85-95% hydrocarbons, it's oil with teflon in it.
> 
> I wonder about the silicone turning black. Black anodizing is dyed black, I've had to send new parts back to anodizing when someone cleaned them too aggressively with solvents and took out the dye/ink. Perhaps the dye is leaching into the silicone carrier.


 
I have heard very few reports of people having any O rings damaged by lubricants, regardless of what they are using. 
Perhaps you could point me to these complaints? I'll stick with the Radio Shack PTFE. It works, regardless of what's in it. I have never replaced an O ring in any light except for a Novatac P120. That ring was too big to begin with.

*EDIT*: I checked RADIO SHACK. It contains 85-95% *SYNTHETIC* hydrocarbons. Synthetic hydrocarbons does not mean petroleum based oil. I would doubt that Radio Shack would say it can be used on rubber gasgets, if the synthetic hydrocarbon was not created to be safely used with rubber.


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## defloyd77 (Dec 4, 2008)

I used to use 3 in 1 oil on my lights and never had any problems.


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## Yoda4561 (Dec 4, 2008)

Just remember, not all hydrocarbons are created equal. Use a bit of discretion when choosing your lubricant, and as long as it doesn't cause problems don't worry about it. If it DOES attack the o-rings, replace them, and post on CPF what killed the o-ring and what the oring was made of.


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## scottm (Dec 4, 2008)

I'm not a petrochemical engineer, but I do have to be familiar with what seals are compatible with what fluids in my profession.

Petroleum is hydrocarbons derived from the earth, I think petroleum means "earth oil". Synthetic hydrocarbons are the same stuff, but in a more pure form, and sometimes they can get the molecules to link up to enhance some desired qualities. Mobil 1 is better than basic Mobil oil, but they're chemically the same basic chemicals.

The term "rubber" as commonly used includes natural rubber and a wide range of man made elastomers. Butyl rubber is not natural rubber from the sap of the rubber tree, it's made from petrochemicals, aka hydrocarbons.

Butyl rubber is the best sealing material for air-tight seals, and it's tougher and more flexible than most rubbers. That's why innertubes are made from butyl, and why flashlight makers apparently favor it. It's not commonly used in industrial or automotive applications, because it doesn't hold up well to hydrocarbon-based fluids and lubricants common there. 

Hydrocarbon-based lubricants will eventually break down the butyl O-rings in flashlights. It might take many years, there's no way to know. Silicone lubricant is cheap and readily available, most auto parts stores carry tubes of Permatex Dielectric grease. O-rings are also cheap, I buy them regularly, but I can't find butyl.

Hopefully this helps. I think I'll stick with silicone, although I don't like the stuff, would prefer the many excellent dry lubes available. If I want to get crazy I'll take measurements and order Buna O-rings for my light.


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## Buck91 (Dec 4, 2008)

Just t throw some variation in here... How would mineral oil treat butyl and bun-a o-rings? How about silicone o-rings like on DX?


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## BabyDoc (Dec 4, 2008)

scottm said:


> Hopefully this helps. I think I'll stick with silicone, although I don't like the stuff, .......


OK, you made some sense up to this point. But, if you don't like the stuff why would you stick with it?. O-rings even if distroyed by lubricants, can be easily changed and don't cost much. So, why worry about it, particularly when it might take years for the lubricant to have an adverse effect on them. I would go with a lubricant I like because it works well, doesn't get stiff, and doesn't get dirty or break down quickly. If Silicone is that lubricant for you, great. But if you are using it only because you think your O rings will last longer, it reminds me of this guy who avoided every pleasure in life, because he thought he would live longer. In the end he didn't live longer, but it sure seemed to him that he had.

And another thing: While it could be true that some synthetic hydrocarbons are derived from petroleum, most are not. (If they are, they usually are called synthetic blends - that's what Mobil 1 really is.) AND not all synthetic hydrocarbons are the same* since they are engineered for different purposes. Some synthetic lubes might destroy rubber, but I trust that if a lube was designed to use on 0-rings and gasgets, it should be safe for that use, until proven otherwise. Hence, I will stick with the Radio Shack PFTE oiler, since they claim it can be used on rubber; so far, it works for me. 

(*check out this web site:http://www.synlube.com/basics.htm. While this isn't oil for flashlight O rings, it is interesting that somebody is promoting a synthetic hydrocarbon that can be used in a car once and the car will never need an oil change.)


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## unique (Dec 5, 2008)

BabyDoc said:


> Nyogel works well as a thin lube, but I hate the way it turns black within a day of applying it to the threads. While I don't think this means anything, I can't tell when to reapply lube because the threads look dirty even when they are not. The Radio Shack PFTE oiler is a bargain at under $5. It is very thin, very adherrent, and doesn't change colors over time. Moreover, it doesn't stiffen even when you haven't used the light for days. The Nyogel, does.


what do you mean by "stiffen"?

Hopefully the lubricant I bought will be okay and will last over a good time without any troubles. In the end, its just lubricant!

The one I bought was recommended for fenix lights like it says on the lighthound website so I see no problem!


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## BabyDoc (Dec 5, 2008)

unique said:


> what do you mean by "stiffen"?


 
When you apply most lubricants, you need to work the lubricant in and twist the body parts of the light a few times before they move smoothly. 
If you then leave the light sit idle for a few days, and move the same parts again, they move stiffly until you work the lubricant in again. It is as if the lubricant thickens or stiffens with disuse. This happens particularly with new lights that have tight O rings. Some thinner lubricants, like the Radio Shack PTFE, allow the parts to turn smoothly every time, even after being unused for several days. In most cases the Nyogel will be fine. I have used it and like it better than Silicone grease.


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## scottm (Dec 5, 2008)

Buck91 said:


> Just t throw some variation in here... How would mineral oil treat butyl and bun-a o-rings? How about silicone o-rings like on DX?


 
Mineral oil is another petroleum distillate, and one thing I always carry when camping. Not good for butyl, ok for buna-N. My chart shows silicone O-rings not recommended for hydrocarbons, synthetic lubes, etc. Not good for abrasion, not especially a good O-ring material. Silicone lube will dissolve silicone O-rings. I'm not sure what lube would work with silicone, it's slippery enough that maybe it doesn't really need to be lubricated.


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## jumpstat (Dec 5, 2008)

Aluminium lights = Nyogel 760G

Titanium lights = Krytox 50/50

Get a bottle each of the above and it will last you for many years...


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## unique (Dec 5, 2008)

jumpstat said:


> *Aluminium lights = Nyogel 760G*
> 
> Titanium lights = Krytox 50/50
> 
> Get a bottle each of the above and it will last you for many years...


Nuff said. :laughing:
Hopefully will be able to get it by next week. I hate that grinding noise coming from the tail cap when I'm turning it.


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## scottm (Dec 5, 2008)

BabyDoc said:


> OK, you made some sense up to this point. But, if you don't like the stuff why would you stick with it?. O-rings even if distroyed by lubricants, can be easily changed and don't cost much. So, why worry about it, particularly when it might take years for the lubricant to have an adverse effect on them.


 
It's my personal compromise between laziness and obsessive perfectionism. I'll never know if my flashlight is still waterproof if I use a hydrocarbon-based lube. Replacing O-rings frequently is probably not going to happen in reality, if I can even find buytl O-rings, no luck so far. Replacing with Buna O-rings isn't a great option, they aren't as supple and won't seal as well. Buna tends to take a set more than butyl, probably why butyl is used here. The only thing I don't like about silicone lube is that it'll pick up debris. It'll take a lot of debris to compromise the seal, it should be noticeable that it's gritty, and it's pretty easy to clean and lube when that happens.



BabyDoc said:


> And another thing: While it could be true that some synthetic hydrocarbons are derived from petroleum, most are not.


 
I use distilled water for a lot of things I won't use tap water for. But they're the same thing. "Synthetic" hydrocarbons aren't made from a block of carbon and a tank of hydrogen. They need to get hydrocarbon molecules from somewhere, and they get them from petroleum. The website you attached says they don't make their base stock, they buy it. It's made from petroleum and highly refined. This was the conclusion of the failed lawsuit by Mobil to stop everyone from claiming to have synthetic oil. The judge found that they were all just refining crude oil and calling it synthesized. So "synthetic" lubes are more pure than "natural" lubes, but basically the same chemical properties.


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## unique (Dec 5, 2008)

I've seen the youtube video on how to clean the TK10 that was posted by fenix themselves. It says to clean the threads with an alcohol soaked swab. I have small alcohol wipes that you can use on open cuts etc, will these be okay to clean the lights threads then apply the 760 lube?


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## 1996alnl (Dec 5, 2008)

unique said:


> I've seen the youtube video on how to clean the TK10 that was posted by fenix themselves. It says to clean the threads with an alcohol soaked swab. I have small alcohol wipes that you can use on open cuts etc, will these be okay to clean the lights threads then apply the 760 lube?


 
All i do is clean the threads and contact points with a acohol soaked q-tip and apply a couple drops of 3-in-1 oil on the threads,never had any problems.


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## scottm (Dec 5, 2008)

unique said:


> I've seen the youtube video on how to clean the TK10 that was posted by fenix themselves. It says to clean the threads with an alcohol soaked swab. I have small alcohol wipes that you can use on open cuts etc, will these be okay to clean the lights threads then apply the 760 lube?


 Alcohol is safe with the butyl rubber O-rings Fenix uses. Alcohol wouldn't be safe with Buna-N O-rings, in case anyone thinks they might have Buna-N.


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## BabyDoc (Dec 5, 2008)

scottm said:


> It's my personal compromise between laziness and obsessive perfectionism. I'll never know if my flashlight is still waterproof if I use a hydrocarbon-based lube. Replacing O-rings frequently is probably not going to happen in reality, if I can even find buytl O-rings, no luck so far. Replacing with Buna O-rings isn't a great option, they aren't as supple and won't seal as well. Buna tends to take a set more than butyl, probably why butyl is used here. The only thing I don't like about silicone lube is that it'll pick up debris. It'll take a lot of debris to compromise the seal, it should be noticeable that it's gritty, and it's pretty easy to clean and lube when that happens.
> 
> 
> 
> I use distilled water for a lot of things I won't use tap water for. But they're the same thing. "Synthetic" hydrocarbons aren't made from a block of carbon and a tank of hydrogen. They need to get hydrocarbon molecules from somewhere, and they get them from petroleum. The website you attached says they don't make their base stock, they buy it. It's made from petroleum and highly refined. This was the conclusion of the failed lawsuit by Mobil to stop everyone from claiming to have synthetic oil. The judge found that they were all just refining crude oil and calling it synthesized. So "synthetic" lubes are more pure than "natural" lubes, but basically the same chemical properties.


 
I guess I read the Syn-Lube website different than you did. In the case of Mobil you are right. Mobil-Exon called it synthetic and the court found that it was not. They were told to call it a "synthetic blend" because it did contain petroleum. Other products may still be allowed to be called synthetic hydrocarbons if they are engineered and synthesized molecules, not just distilled or ultra refined petroleum. I gathered that Syn-Lube was claiming to be one of those. Unlike oil, they claim it doesn't break down.

BTW, are you sure all silicone lubes are the same? It could be there is petroleum in some of those, too? Even so, I would bet that friction, caused by inadequate lubrication or by dirty, boken down lubricant, destroys O rings faster than does any petroleum in them. Has anybody just submersed an O-ring in petroleum based oil and seen how long it takes to disintegrate? That might be an interesting experiment.


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## unique (Dec 5, 2008)

scottm said:


> Alcohol is safe with the butyl rubber O-rings Fenix uses. Alcohol wouldn't be safe with Buna-N O-rings, in case anyone thinks they might have Buna-N.


thank you! Will let you guys know how it went :twothumbs


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## scottm (Dec 5, 2008)

BabyDoc said:


> BTW, are you sure all silicone lubes are the same? It could be there is petroleum in some of those, too? Even so, I would bet that friction, caused by inadequate lubrication or by dirty, boken down lubricant, destroys O rings faster than does any petroleum in them. Has anybody just submersed an O-ring in petroleum based oil and seen how long it takes to disintegrate? That might be an interesting experiment.


 
Dunno about silicone lubes maybe having petroleum. The NyoGel noted earlier is a petroleum product thickened with silica, might be considered a silicone lube. I've checked Dow Molykote 55 and Permatex Dielectric Grease, both are pure silicone. The Permatex is cheap and easy to find at auto parts stores. Permatex Spark Plug Boot Grease and other similar products seem to be the same stuff in different packages.

Lubricants don't break down in a simple flashlight, unless you're using cooking oil. I'm more concerned about the lubricant attracting grit, which will wreck sealing surfaces.

There are studies of how long it takes for butyl rubber to fail with various chemicals, google around maybe.


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## Buck91 (Dec 5, 2008)

Silicone grease will definately thicken, as the tailcap on my surefire has noticably more resistance during cold as opposed to warmer weather. If that triflow stuff is butyl safe (I doubt it, but maybe?) then I'd like to try that as its supposed to be significantly trackier than most greases (which is good, IMHO)


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## RocketTomato (Dec 6, 2008)

You should use lubrication on your flashlights for two main reasons:

1- To protect the threads.
The constant twisting action will grind down the threads over time. You minimize this constant wear and tear by lubricating the threads. To a lesser extent you also want to prevent the threads from galling. You can use most any lube for this including graphite, silicone, petroleum based oils/greases, etc. Even teflon tape will work.

Galling/seizing of the threads is generally not of big concern especially with aluminum since aluminum forms a protective oxide coating. Titanium and stainless steel, however, are more prone to seizing, but you should not worry unless you plan on leaving your lights sitting around for 20 years or so unused. The exception being the titanium screws used on the clips of some titanium lights. Those will probably seize over time unless anti-seize compound is used.

If your threads are gritty, this is bad. Clean them out thoroughly and then apply the lube of your choice.

2- To protect the o-rings.
O-rings are lubed to keep them pliable. If they dry out, cracken and stiffen, they would no longer serve their purpose. Choice of lube, gets more complicated because not all o-ring materials are the same. 

The most common o-ring material is Buna-N which is a nitrile based rubber which is resistant to petroleum based oils. Other common materials are EPDM (another rubber type o-ring), Silicone (red-orange color) and Polyurethane (clear white color). The only lubricants compatible with all of these materials are perfluorinated, Teflon type lubricants like Krytox. Silicone based lubricants are a close second and are compatible with all the aforementioned materials except for silicone.

But don't take my word for it. Look up o-ring chemical compatibility on google. Here is a link to the makers of Nyogel, Nye lubricants, which discusses chemical compatibility. Examine the lower left table. Note, perfluoropolyethers are Teflon like compounds, Buna-N is a.k.a. nitrile and the Nyogels 779 and 760 are synthetic hydrocarbon based gels.

In reality though, for our use in flashlights, it probably really does not matter what you use, as long as you use something. It is not like your o-ring will instantly decompose if you use an incompatible oil or grease on it. We are talking long term effects over the course of years. Chemical compatibility becomes much more important in higher temperature and pressure processes encountered in industry. However, I suspect for o-rings that are actuated constantly, like the ones used in the popular piston drive lights, it becomes more important to use the correct lubricant. It is also important to use the correct type of lubricant if you want to ensure the water proof rating of your light if you are a diver.

In summary, use a Teflon (perfluoro) based oil or grease on both your threads and o-rings. If you do not have silicone o-rings, you can safely use a silicone based oil or grease. If you have a current favorite oil or grease, go ahead and continue using that, it is much better then using nothing at all. Just keep an eye on your o-rings for extra wear and tear.


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## RocketTomato (Dec 6, 2008)

scottm said:


> I use distilled water for a lot of things I won't use tap water for. But they're the same thing. "Synthetic" hydrocarbons aren't made from a block of carbon and a tank of hydrogen. *They need to get hydrocarbon molecules from somewhere, and they get them from petroleum.* The website you attached says they don't make their base stock, they buy it. It's made from petroleum and highly refined. This was the conclusion of the failed lawsuit by Mobil to stop everyone from claiming to have synthetic oil. The judge found that they were all just refining crude oil and calling it synthesized. *So "synthetic" lubes are more pure than "natural" lubes, but basically the same chemical properties.*



That's not quite correct. A true synthetic oil is actually made from methane (CH4) or carbon dioxide (CO2) or carbon monoxide (CO). No petroleum products are involved.

Here is an excellent summary of the differences between motor oil, synthetic oil and synblend oil. 

Also, while a hydrocarbon is a hydrocarbon is a hydrocarbon, the chemical and physical properties of the oil can vary greatly based on the impurities found in distilled petroleum products. For example, taken from this website:



> Without getting too technical, suffice it to say that synthetics have a much higher resistance to heat than mineral-based oils. Because synthetic oil is composed of molecules that are uniform in weight and shape, its heat of vaporization is much higher (more than 600 deg. F.) compared to conventional oil, which begins evaporating at temps as low as 350 deg. F. This added stability at high temperature means that your hard-working engine wont burn up as much oil- and that means less sludge and fewer varnish deposits in the engine.


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## scottm (Dec 6, 2008)

RocketTomato said:


> That's not quite correct. A true synthetic oil is actually made from methane (CH4) or carbon dioxide (CO2) or carbon monoxide (CO). No petroleum products are involved.


 
I'm neither lawyer nor chemist. In Mobil's lawsuit it was revealed that none of the "synthetic" motor oils were synthesized from pure chemicals, it was much too expensive to produce that in quantity. Apparently the few producers of "synthetic" base stock are simply refining petroleum products, and the judge set a standard for defining "synthetic" as including refined petroleum. A hydrocarbon molecule is just a hydrocarbon molecule, no matter the source.



RocketTomato said:


> Also, while a hydrocarbon is a hydrocarbon is a hydrocarbon, the chemical and physical properties of the oil can vary greatly based on the impurities found in distilled petroleum products. For example, taken from this website:


 
I agree. I only use high-grade synthetic motor oils and lubes in my cars. The difference is slight chemically, but significant in long-term performance of the product, mostly due to purity and additives. But the most pure synthetic hydrocarbons in the world will still dissolve butyl rubber O-rings, perhaps faster than low-grade hydrocarbons.

We each have to make our choices on what lube to use, hopefully this information helps us understand the risks and benefits of our options. I probably have some facts oversimplified or worded poorly, but I think we have the gist of this figured out. There are forums devoted to discussion of oil, and many automotive forums have sub-forums for oil discussions, lots of information out there.


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## Kingfisher (Dec 6, 2008)

1996alnl said:


> :mecry:


Are you O.K. mate? 




For the rest of you: a simple yey or nay would have done.
Really!!:shrug:


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## Big_Ed (Dec 6, 2008)

Does anyone know if Nyogel is available in a hardware store? Like Lowes or Ace?


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## scottm (Dec 6, 2008)

RocketTomato said:


> In summary, use a Teflon (perfluoro) based oil or grease on both your threads and o-rings. If you do not have silicone o-rings, you can safely use a silicone based oil or grease. If you have a current favorite oil or grease, go ahead and continue using that, it is much better then using nothing at all. Just keep an eye on your o-rings for extra wear and tear.


 
Good information. I also figured we had Buna-N O-rings, but after looking into it I think we have Butyl rubber, which doesn't do well with hydrocarbons. Fenix assured me my light has Butyl O-rings, and they chose that material for good reason. I have three Ray-O-Vac 4W LED lights that arrived new with badly eroded O-rings. I suspect they used incompatible lubricant, no other explanation makes sense. So I will avoid hydrocarbons like Nyogel.

Also, our aluminum threads are anodized, that's aluminum oxide, a ceramic, same material as sapphire and ruby, commonly used in sandpaper. Not electrically conductive, but very thermally conductive. This hard anodizing is a denser and thicker anodize, and it's dyed black with ink. Ceramic should be compatible with any lubricant, the dye might not be, I'm hearing some silicone lubes are turning black, probably from the ink.


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## KiwiMark (Dec 6, 2008)

jumpstat said:


> Aluminium lights = Nyogel 760G
> 
> Titanium lights = Krytox 50/50
> 
> Get a bottle each of the above and it will last you for many years...



I am curious about this post - what is the reason I couldn't buy some Krytox 50/50 and use it on all my lights? The reason I ask is that I have 3 Jetbeam lights that have the orange/red coloured O-Rings that indicate they are Silicone and may weaken/deteriorate with Nyogel. I have been thinking about ordering some Krytox 50/50 for use with all my lights if it would be safe to do so.


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## scottm (Dec 6, 2008)

I looked up Krytox, wow, that looks perfect! Teflon should be fairly dry, have you used the stuff before? Where do you get it and how much $? Online it looks like a tube will cost as much as a decent flashlight.


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## Daniel_sk (Dec 6, 2008)

I have been using Nyogel for maybe two years and the o-rings are still intact. I can replace them anytime for few cents. Buying a more expensive lube just to protect the o-rings is IMHO a waste of money...


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## scottm (Dec 6, 2008)

Daniel_sk said:


> I have been using Nyogel for maybe two years and the o-rings are still intact. I can replace them anytime for few cents. Buying a more expensive lube just to protect the o-rings is IMHO a waste of money...


 
I get Buna-N or Viton O-rings for a buck a hundred, but I don't have a regular supplier of Butyl. Where do you get the correct O-rings cheap?


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## Daniel_sk (Dec 6, 2008)

Depends on the flashlight type. Lighthound has surefire and novatac o-rings in stock: http://www.lighthound.com/search.asp?keyword=o-ring - and some standard sizes. These are Nitril o-rings. HDS/Ra lights have standard size O-rings, the size is mentioned in the manual. There should also be a lot of them at dealextreme.com or you could contact the flashlight manufacturer or distributer.


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## RocketTomato (Dec 6, 2008)

scottm said:


> I looked up Krytox, wow, that looks perfect! Teflon should be fairly dry, have you used the stuff before? Where do you get it and how much $? Online it looks like a tube will cost as much as a decent flashlight.



You can get a special blend of Krytox from the Sandwich Shoppe.

Krytox 50/50 is a blend of Krytox oil #101 and krytox grease #201. You should shake it well before use.

You can also get a small tube of Krytox #205 from McMaster-Carr. Item #10195K19
They also have the other Krytox grades available.

The higher the number of the Krytox grease, the higher the viscosity. I have used the Krytox #206 grease without a problem on my lights.


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## RocketTomato (Dec 6, 2008)

KiwiMark said:


> I am curious about this post - what is the reason I couldn't buy some Krytox 50/50 and use it on all my lights? The reason I ask is that I have 3 Jetbeam lights that have the orange/red coloured O-Rings that indicate they are Silicone and may weaken/deteriorate with Nyogel. I have been thinking about ordering some Krytox 50/50 for use with all my lights if it would be safe to do so.



Yes, you can safely use Krytox on all your lights. The main difference is in viscosity. I find that the krytox 50/50 and the PTFE oiler from radioshack lubricate too well and make the threads on some of my lights "too loose". For example, on my nitecore D10, the teflon lubes make the head twist very loose so I stick to using the Nyogel. Though I do use the krytox on the piston which gives me a nice smooth action. On my Ti lights, where the threads are much tighter, I use the Krytox exclusively and it works well.


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## BabyDoc (Dec 6, 2008)

RocketTomato said:


> Yes, you can safely use Krytox on all your lights. The main difference is in viscosity. I find that the krytox 50/50 and the PTFE oiler from radioshack lubricate too well and make the threads on some of my lights "too loose". For example, on my nitecore D10, the teflon lubes make the head twist very loose so I stick to using the Nyogel. Though I do use the krytox on the piston which gives me a nice smooth action. On my Ti lights, where the threads are much tighter, I use the Krytox exclusively and it works well.


 
Sometimes, I use a different lubricant for the O rings than I do for threads. I love the PFTE Oiler for the threads and even for tight O rings, but if the O rings are a bit loose, I prefer thicker silicone there to insure water proofing, and continue to use the PFTE oil on the threads. I don't know if these lubes mix at some point, causing problems, but so far this works for me. BTW, isn't PFTE another name for Teflon?


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## scottm (Dec 6, 2008)

PTFE is short for Polytetrafluoroethylene, which is the main ingredient in Dupont's Teflon.


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## scottm (Dec 6, 2008)

I used to work with ultra-high-vacuum chambers and pumps, I think those were full of Krytox oil. Kinda thin for this maybe, but I might be able to score some vacuum pump oil for free. I can't justify buying a $50 tube to lube my $42 light. For now, I'll stick with my silicone dielectric grease.


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## DM51 (Dec 7, 2008)

Kingfisher, I have deleted one of your posts above. It was totally unnecessary, offensive and coarse. 

Such posts will not be tolerated here. You are warned that any further posts of that nature will result in your posting privileges being suspended.


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## Kingfisher (Dec 7, 2008)

A little more vigilance in addressing provocative, smart a**e replies would not go a miss either. 

You have informed me how far I can go and I'll take note, I only hope those who cannot answer questions properly would not bother with unoriginal and childish humour. If you read through you will see I only *react* to rudeness.


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## DM51 (Dec 7, 2008)

You clearly haven't yet learned how to react to warnings, either. Take a few days off, and make sure you read Rule #8 before you return.


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## divine (Dec 7, 2008)

I scrolled up looking for the deleted post box. :duh2:


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## divine (Dec 7, 2008)

I will be looking for pure silicone grease next time I'm in the store. I've been trying out that radioshack 642301, and it freezes up after a day or two of drying. I think it is good for threads, but not for things that need to turn on a regular basis, like a twisty.

I picked up some dupont teflon white lithium grease from lowe's, and that seems to not freeze up. I'll be using that on my twisty until I find something better.


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## TITAN1833 (Dec 7, 2008)

This has good potential IMO here


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## RocketTomato (Dec 8, 2008)

scottm said:


> I used to work with ultra-high-vacuum chambers and pumps, I think those were full of Krytox oil. Kinda thin for this maybe, but I might be able to score some vacuum pump oil for free. I can't justify buying a $50 tube to lube my $42 light. For now, I'll stick with my silicone dielectric grease.



A 0.5 oz (14 .2 gram) tube of Krytox 205 from McMaster-Carr is only $14.40 + shipping. The Krytox oil would probably be too thin.


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## unique (Dec 12, 2008)

got my nyogel760 today. cleaned threads as as shown on the youtube video, and applied evenly and all around the threads and o-ring..
much much smoother as course


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## danpass (Jan 13, 2009)

What lube does Surefire ship their lights/spares carriers with?


That stuff seems to last forever, I suspect that it must be some type of oil (vs grease)


Every silicone grease I've tried seems to stiffen up within a week. It never stays as 'soft' as what originally came on the threads/o-rings.


Thanks for the *STRAIGHT* answer.



"Do a search" .... yeah, that's already been done thankyouverymuch


.


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## chmsam (Jan 13, 2009)

From what I could find on a search (and it seems correct to me) they use Nyogel. 

However, I just use a pure silicone grease I got from a dive shop. If you find that the grease you are using gets too stiff it might well be that you have applied more than is needed. Grease and oil can attract grit and that can make things stiffer to operate so I tend to use as little as possible to get the job done. All I do is apply a very small amount (about the size of a pea) to the surface/o-ring with a very clean finger and then wipe off any excess with a clean rag used only for that purpose (new cloths/rags should be washed prior to use to reduce any lint or loose fibers). My lights are not stiff to operate even after months of going unused. Give that a try and see if it helps.

Why do I use grease instead of oil? I find that fluids tend to migrate and grease tends to stay put. Either way my opinion is that "less is more."

Good luck.


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## danpass (Jan 13, 2009)

I should have updated:

I called earlier for some o-rings and asked ..... they do use Nyogel 760.


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## unique (Jan 15, 2009)

Someone said that the nyogel 760 can stiffen after time, I had gone a about a month not using my light and I twisted the head and tailcap and still smooth.
Not sure why this person said it stiffens up after time.


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## Bobo The Bear (Jan 15, 2009)

I use this for lubrication:

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=53861-1366-88693&lpage=none

It's available at Home Depot also. It's cheap and easy to get. No complaints so far.


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