# tubular locks not safe



## Reptilezs (Sep 18, 2004)

i talked little about this in the past when i was researching bike locks. but now it has become popular to use a cheap bic pen instead of a real tubular pick. http://www.bikeforums.net/ has some videos and news links. i dont think they should have publicised this so much but i think it will be for the better of the bike lock industry


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## flashlight (Sep 18, 2004)

A closed shackle padlock is best but I guess not entirely suitable as a bike lock in some cases.


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## yclo (Sep 18, 2004)

That is just screwed up, I just opened both of my Kryptonite MegaLok's with the barrel of a plastic pen.

Looks like I won't be leaving my bike outside for a while.

-YC


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## GJW (Sep 18, 2004)

Ok, I'm not getting this at all.
I've watched the videos but I also thought I knew how locks work.
In a pin tumbler lock the pins need to be raised/lowered to the shear line so that the lock plug can rotate.
In a tubular lock the pins need to be depressed to the shear line before the tube will rotate.
Are the Kryptonite pins not functional and just for show or is the bic pen exerting enough force to break the pin assembly?
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif


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## cy (Sep 18, 2004)

with a simple pick-set, you are able to defeat most any lock. There are some exceptions like the Medico twist tumbler locks. 

people have known for years, one could pick a tubular lock with the proper tubular pick tool. but never considered picking with a simple bic pen. 

I've been hearing about how defeating locks are the rage for hackers.


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## GJW (Sep 18, 2004)

Yeah, I get that...
I've been picking locks for years and I used to have a tubular lock "pick".
But the bic pen method doesn't even seem to involve the pins -- just the tube, which shouldn't be movable until the pins are dealt with.
A tubular lock without pins could be opened with needle-nose pliers.....
So again, are the Kryptonite pins just for show or are they that flimsy?


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## yclo (Sep 18, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*GJW said:*
....In a pin tumbler lock the pins need to be raised/lowered to the shear line so that the lock plug can rotate...

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I thought too, since the tool... *ahem*... key has different individual heights that are varied to different locks.

But hey, there were the clicks, and it opened.

-YC


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## GJW (Sep 18, 2004)

Ok, I just 'bic'ed my Kensington computer cable lock.
It obviously works.... I just don't understand how.....


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## GJW (Sep 18, 2004)

Ahhhhh....... and now I do.....
It really is the same principle as a professional tubular pick.


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## yclo (Sep 18, 2004)

Is the professional pick self adjusting? I was under the impression that you had to alter the heights for each pin to get the clicks?


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## GJW (Sep 18, 2004)

It is "sort of" self adjusting.
Tension holds the pin picks in place and the resistance of the real pins as you insert the tool overcomes that tension and adjusts the pin picks.
It ain't exact but 2 or 3 tries and you're in.


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## yclo (Sep 18, 2004)

Gotcha, but the issue on hand is that Bic pens can be very easily obtained and the idea/method is going to be in the open.

They don't even need to be prepared, they just need to happen to walk by a bike with these locks and happen to have a pen on them.

Whereas with the picks, you have to buy them, learn how to use them and actually carry it with you.

Locks can be easily bypassed, but the more people that know how to, the less effective it becomes.

-YC


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## flashlight (Sep 18, 2004)

Slightly OT but I've been informed that this type of padlock (see top pic) that's usually attached to steel gates of homes can also be easily opened by tapping & jiggling the sliding steel cylinder/shaft, whereas the bottom type are slightly better.












And would you believe it - there's even a lock-picking forum! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif: /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif


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## SJACKAL (Sep 18, 2004)

No surprise, there is such a hobby as lock picking. Check out the online MIT basic lock picking manual too.


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## Frangible (Sep 18, 2004)

NO lock is safe. The QuikSet lock on your home can be picked in about 15 seconds. The good locks can take 30 seconds to several minutes.


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## 2dim (Sep 18, 2004)

One word -- *INSURANCE!*


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## James S (Sep 18, 2004)

I just tried this with a very old kryptonite plus D shaped lock that I have. But a bic pen was the wrong size, it was too small to fit around the center tumbler thing. So do I assume that they made these smaller at some point and that a pen just happens to be the perfect fit?

Thats almost hilarious.

Seems they should make the tumbler a different size again, that would help /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif Or perhaps take a lesson from the record industry and we'll just outlay pens in general. It's back to the pencil my friends...


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## Sub_Umbra (Sep 18, 2004)

If the lining up of the pins isn't necessary to open the lock, what's the point? Is Kryptonite owned by Microsoft or what? I smell a class action suit and I want in on it. This really chaps my hide. I'm just lucky I live in a town where the bike thieves can't read...but that'll only work for a while.


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## Xrunner (Sep 18, 2004)

Very interesting...I'm going to have to try this on a few locks I have around. Thanks for the link.

-Mike


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## Saaby (Sep 18, 2004)

Looks like Kryptonite found it's Kryptonite /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif


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## Skyline (Sep 18, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*GJW said:*
Ok, I just 'bic'ed my Kensington computer cable lock.
It obviously works.... I just don't understand how..... 

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm glad I got a combination lock and cable for my laptop. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## GJW (Sep 18, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*James S said:*
I just tried this with a very old kryptonite plus D shaped lock that I have. But a bic pen was the wrong size, it was too small to fit around the center tumbler thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

It should be a force fit for it to work.


[ QUOTE ]
*Sub_Umbra said:*
If the lining up of the pins isn't necessary to open the lock, what's the point?

[/ QUOTE ]

The pins _are_ being lined up. That's what I didn't get at first and that's the impressive part.


[ QUOTE ]
*Skyline said:*
[ QUOTE ]
*GJW said:*
Ok, I just 'bic'ed my Kensington computer cable lock.
It obviously works.... I just don't understand how..... 

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm glad I got a combination lock and cable for my laptop. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif 

[/ QUOTE ]

If it's 3-digit combo then it's only *slightly* harder to open.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif


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## Draco_Americanus (Sep 18, 2004)

AWWW man! I bought a bike at an auction that had one of these locks around part of the frame. It ended up getting cut off, knowing now about the pen thing, that would have saved some work!
About the 3 digit combo locks, those are a joke!


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## Sub_Umbra (Sep 18, 2004)

I'm probably going to have two or maybe three of these things to replace. We really depend on our bikes. Worst case I'm going to be out $150-200. (That's IF my bike(s) doesn't get ripped). 

I'm on my way to the bike shop now to do a refresher course on the Kryptonite warrany that came with my locks. If I find out that I'll need 'proof of purchase' to collect on a future theft -- that will be the end of my buying Kryptonite locks. I'll go with something heavy duty that is not such a *MONOCULTURE.* One fails -- _millions fail._ Essentially the same reasons I dumped Microsoft. It's not worth the hassle. Something tells me that I'll be taking a detailed series of photos of each bike tonight and burning them onto a CD.

Someone could probably make a bundle right now if they had a lockable housing *that covered the Krypto lock keyway.*


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## The_LED_Museum (Sep 18, 2004)

I heard about this on the news last night - that Kryptonite "U"-shaped locks can be opened with nothing more than the barrel of a Bic disposable pen.

I don't have anything protected by one of these locks though, so I think I'm alright that way.


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## Sub_Umbra (Sep 18, 2004)

My bike guys just told me that Krypto will be offering better locks and rebates for old locks with *original* keys.

You must jump through at least a _few_ hoops to collect on the theft protection, however. 

To collect on a theft you must:

1--- Have registered your purchase of the lock with Krypto.

2--- Send in copy of police report.

3--- Send in broken lock.

There may be more things that you have to do to qualify, but frankly, I lost interest after those three.

For one thing, *the BIC trick leaves no broken lock.*

I've probably bought my last Krypto product. If I'm going to shell out for a high quality setup it won't be one with a profile as high as Krypto's. It won't even be a bike lock. I will avoid the monoculture. The puds will have to work to crack mine.


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## Reptilezs (Sep 18, 2004)

kryptonite will be offering new crossbars(cylinder piece of the U lock not the U) to owners of kryptonite u locks that are newer than 2002 http://www.kryptonitelock.com/inetisscripts/abtinetis.exe/[email protected]?tn=home_home has some more info. the new style key will be the disk style which is used on the new york lock


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## Skyline (Sep 18, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*GJW said:*
If it's 3-digit combo then it's only *slightly* harder to open.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif 

[/ QUOTE ]

Good thing I did my homework and got a 4-digit combo. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## 2dim (Sep 18, 2004)

Best bet is to include bicycle under home insurance policy, with only a police report needed for immediate replacement, no questions asked. Happened to me and my trusty bike shop handled everything, to the tune of $1700CAD.


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## LukeK (Sep 18, 2004)

Yargh, this sucks! I live on campus now and stealing bikes is incredibly prevalent. This little exploit is going to make my sleeping at night fun.... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif


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## raggie33 (Sep 18, 2004)

put my dog in back yard with snoop. he kinda scares everyone


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## LukeK (Sep 18, 2004)

I think this warrants a trip to walmart tomorrow to buy some thick-*** chain and a good padlock.


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## markdi (Sep 19, 2004)

lukek

take your bike inside at night


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## flashlight (Sep 19, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*Sub_Umbra said:*
If the lining up of the pins isn't necessary to open the lock, what's the point? Is Kryptonite owned by Microsoft or what? I smell a class action suit and I want in on it. This really chaps my hide. I'm just lucky I live in a town where the bike thieves can't read...but that'll only work for a while. 

[/ QUOTE ]

They just need to watch the 'instructional' video /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif


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## Pellidon (Sep 19, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*Skyline said:*
[ QUOTE ]
*GJW said:*
If it's 3-digit combo then it's only *slightly* harder to open.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif 

[/ QUOTE ]

Good thing I did my homework and got a 4-digit combo. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif






[/ QUOTE ]

It takes ten seconds with a bolt cutter to crack that one. I know from past experience. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif


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## markdi (Sep 19, 2004)

so if I have a 15 year old kriptonite lock will
the kriptonite lock people fix it ?


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## milkyspit (Sep 19, 2004)

If a Kryptonite lock is no longer a safe bet, and those cable locks can easily be compromised, then, uh... what exactly would be the lock of choice to secure one's bike?

Seriously. What do you bike folks suggest? I don't want my bike ripped off! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif At least, I want to use the best thing available when I have to lock my bike somewhere, such as when I go into a store, etc. What should we use?


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## 2dim (Sep 19, 2004)

Any lock can be defeated or broken. It's all about of time and opportunity. Various multiple locks, carefully choosing parking places, and keeping an eye on your bike is the best that can be done. That means not leaving it for too long, but certainly not overnight in an unprotected area. There are bike alarm systems, as well, which might work so long as pedestrians are passing by. Thieves like to be furtive and fast -- try to prevent both somehow. Also, ALWAYS double-check that you've actually locked the bike and what to. Seems silly, but you could be in a hurry or thinking of other things. I've locked my bike, then unlocked it and walked away. Needless to say, it wasn't there when I returned...


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## milkyspit (Sep 19, 2004)

2dim, thanks for the tips, although I'm still hoping to find a really, REALLY thief-unfriendly lock for a bicycle out there somewhere. Hmm... maybe an electronic lock, keyed by a coded spread spectrum signal from a keychain remote or something! No keyhole or combination thingy at all, just solid rods of hardened metal. That would be cool to play with, too... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

All this reminds me of what I think was a near-theft of my bike while living in Seattle one summer. I Kryptonite locked my bike to a small tree while I went into a *bike shop*, ironically, to buy some parts. As I was paying for my purchase, I happened to look out the picture window to the side of the store, and at that moment saw a white van pull up close to my bike, the side cargo door open, and one or two guys hop out, walking toward my bike. I came out of the store and around the corner just then, and as soon as the guys saw me, they hopped back in the van and pulled away. I quickly mounted my bike and actually chased the van -- on bike! -- through the parking lot and a little bit down the road, until it was moving too quickly to keep up. I'll never know for sure, but to this day my gut tells me they were about to attempt a theft of my bicycle. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

Lucky break that I noticed it when I did! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/buttrock.gif


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## Sub_Umbra (Sep 19, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*milkyspit said:*
If a Kryptonite lock is no longer a safe bet, and those cable locks can easily be compromised, then, uh... what exactly would be the lock of choice to secure one's bike?

Seriously. What do you bike folks suggest? I don't want my bike ripped off! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif At least, I want to use the best thing available when I have to lock my bike somewhere, such as when I go into a store, etc. What should we use? 

[/ QUOTE ]

My bike guys showed me a newer, cool Krypto lock with a very sophisticated key. I won't even try to describe the key. The guys at my bike shop have always been straight with me -- but they're also trying to make a living.
The lock was $85. I have no doubt that it is a very good lock. I won't buy it.

For that kind of money there are a great many VERY tough locks to choose from. If you look in a good locksmith shop you will find high-tech padlocks that are *every bit as good* as the newest, whiz-bang Krypto locks.

The high-tech *non-bike* padlocks will have at least a couple of advantages over Krypto rigs, however:

1--- Price. For slightly less money I can buy a very high-tech 'close shackled' padlock that will be tough as nails.

2--- Avoidance of *monoculture.* No matter how good Krypto lock technology is -- it will always just be good lock technology. But when Krypto adopts a design and sells bazillions of them, all for *exactly the same purpose*, an irresistible target is placed on those locks. Locks with cylindrical keys have been around for decades, but bear in mind that the BIC Trick came about in part because _there are so many of these identical locks made by the same company for exactly the same purpose._

If you had a forest where every tree shared the exact same DNA that would be a Monoculture. If one of those trees got a disease that killed it, all the rest would die, too. The *Windows Monoculture* is a very good example of this. While I am one who truly believes that the Windows OS(s) are inherently inferior, that is not important to this comparison. The salient fact is that Windows OSs run on 90% of the boxes on earth. If you want to write a Trojan or a worm that steals from or upsets the most people _you have to write it for Windows._ (That's one of the reasons I switched to UNIX years ago.) Bank robbers rob banks because that's where the money is. Bike thieves learn to crack Kryptos because that is what they must do to steal most bikes. Monoculture. 

By avoiding Krypto you force the bike thief to figure out how to crack _your particular setup_ -- or just move on to a setup that he is more familiar with -- <font color="red">*Kryptonite.* </font> 

Short story:

Go to the best lock shop in town. Ask about _'close shackled insurance padlocks.'_ Buy the best you can afford. I'll get two 'keyed alike' for less hassle later.

Find someone who knows the ins and outs of chain and buy a tough piece of chain. (My bike guys offered to get the same chain for me that Krypto uses, from a local source.) I'll cover the chain(s) with old mountain bike tubes.

EDIT: Buy the chain first and take it with you to the lock shop so you can be sure your chosen lock will fit around it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Of course, no setup is totally safe from a determined attacker, but that's not the point. The point is that you can set yourself up with a lock kit that won't be a target for every bike cracker and the next time there's a *Krypto Exploit* you won't have to run around in a panic like everyone else...like the Windows folks do with each new virus or worm.


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## 2dim (Sep 19, 2004)

Really good points! I keep getting too complacent. Still gonna buy that insurance, just to be sure...

To Milkyspit: It happens in SECONDS, not minutes...We're told Toronto is the bike theft capital of North America.


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## Reptilezs (Sep 19, 2004)

the only kryptonite locks that cant be opened with BIC pens are the new york Fahgettaboudit and new york 3000. they use a flat key with a disk style cylinder. krytonite will also be phasing out the tubular styled keys and going to flat keys same as the new york line. if you still dont trust krytonite u can look at onguard U locks here http://www.onguardlock.com/ they use flat keys with a disk style cylinder that they call the "M cylinder" its just a marketing name. other posibilities are squire locks and ABUS locks http://www.squirelocks.co.uk/html/newcycleintro.htm http://www.abus.de/us/main.asp?ScreenLang=us&sid=46989077322224719092004216151148&select=0104b both abus and squire use the flat key with disk style cylinder


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## Frangible (Sep 19, 2004)

You can also try a Medeco padlock, supposedly Medeco makes the best locks in the US... they take a couple minutes to pick, the others only take a couple seconds.


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## kakster (Sep 19, 2004)

Hmmm...i have a New York model with the tubular key, but the Bic trick doesnt seem to work on mine.


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## milkyspit (Sep 19, 2004)

Somebody ought to use multiple tumblers (might have that lingo wrong... I mean a single lock with multiple keyholes, where ALL must be turned to open the lock) in a bike lock. A very old acquaintance of mine who really ought to remain nameless for obvious reasons, was the son of an NYPD detective. His father had confiscated several lockpick sets over the years, and my acquaintance of course kept one for himself, then learned how to use it... very well! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Anyway, this was on door locks so it may not apply to padlocks, but the point was that he'd apply turning pressure to the cylinder and gently press all the pins out of the way, one by one. They stayed out of the way due to the sideways pressure against them. When the last pin was out of the way, the cylinder could be turned, and the lock would be open! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jpshakehead.gif

He wasn't really a thief, just a kid who enjoyed picking locks for a hobby... mostly the challenge I guess, and because it was taboo. But he did make one very good point at the time: if a door had multiple locks on it, it suddenly became MUCH more difficult to even impossible to open the door (at least for a single person), because he needed to go through the process on ALL the locks SIMULTANEOUSLY. He simply didn't have enough hands to do that!

Maybe that would be a useful development in padlock design. I don't know. Just sharing some thoughts.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif


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## KC2IXE (Sep 19, 2004)

I remember back in the "old days" when krytonite locks first came out, my now Brother-in-law LOST the keys to his lock. He went to the bike shop to find out how to open it. They told him about hours with a power hack saw, etc. He decided to call me. I had the lock off about 60 seconds after I had my tools out of the car - Oxy acetyline torches are wonderful tools

That's just to give you a story - NO lock is totally safe. Give me a couple of minutes, no alarm (aka, I can do it without being observed) and the right tools, and just about anything short of a bank vault can be opened (and even THEY can be opened - ask me the story of the time dad got called into work because someone used the HVAC's water supply to cool the diamond saw....)


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## idleprocess (Sep 19, 2004)

Most locks just keep the honest people honest.

The overall principle behind picking keylocks is simple - apply constant force in the direction of movement and actuate the tumblers until the lock opens. Almost all keylocks have just enough slop in them to allow one to work tumblers singly and keep them disengaged while one works the other tumblers.

It sounds like the Bic pen barrell trick is a coincidence of size and material - the pen barrell is just the right size and elastic enough that it actuates all the tumblers. A random twisting motion while pushing on the barrell looks to work the tumblers into the right position to open the lock.


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## idleprocess (Sep 19, 2004)

Cracking vaults is difficult and time-consuming.

There are several classifications of vault doors on the market. I say "doors" because you'd be an absolute fool to attack the vault panels. They're some sort of engineered concrete panel that's been heavily reinforced and chews up cutting tools like a couch potato going through a stack of Pringles.

UL Classes M, I, II, and III are the most commonly-available vault doors. All classifications must withstand continuous assault by skilled UL safecracking technicians with access to small-scale explosives, acetyline torches, plasma cutters, and high-grade cutting tools.

These are the ratings:
Class M mercantile 15 min
Class I bank rated 30 min
Class II bank rated 1 hour
Class III bank rated 2 hours

These ratings are worst possible case conditions - in real life, it takes far greater than the rated time to compromise a vault door "in the field" by mutiple technicians due to a failed timelock or someone getting locked in. Not to mention the sheer number of expensive cutting tools that you're going to toss in the process.

I'm not sure exactly how vault doors are fabricated, but I know that the stainless facade is just that - a facade. The meat of a vault door is multiple layers of high-grade steel plate laminated together with some nasty stuff between layers to both strengthen the door and destroy cutting tools. A typical class I-III vault door weighs in at over 2 tons, with a clear opening of just around 36"x78".


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## turbodog (Sep 19, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*Saaby said:*
Looks like Kryptonite found it's Kryptonite /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif 

[/ QUOTE ]

died laughing


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## turbodog (Sep 19, 2004)

Pretty much on topic....

Back in college they had bike racks by the different building. We all locked to these, or nearby railings, trees, benches, etc.

I always though it was interesting that I was using a krypto lock that was hacksaw proof on a thinwall mild steel object. Someone with a good burst of energy and a new sharp blade could easily hacksaw through most things in about a minute, to say nothing for the new battery-operated sawzalls on the market.


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## greenLED (Sep 20, 2004)

We tried the trick with our Krypto lock but it didn't work. Either ours is a newer/not the right model for the hack or this whole thing's bogus... 

Anyway, we always use a U-lock AND a cable-lock (4 digit combination).


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## gadget_lover (Sep 20, 2004)

From my studies of locksmiting, I can state the following authoritatively;

1) the tubular locks used by Kryptonite must be badly designed and setup. A good tubular lock is difficult to pick AND it will generally require more than a partial turn to release the bolt. As soon as you get it rotated to the second set of holes, the bic pen trick should fail when the pins pop into the next set of holes. It will also have enough variance between the pin heights that a simple tube (even rocked) will not set the pins at the shear line. Dead pins, mushroom pins, etc would make it all MUCH harder.

It looks like Kryptonite is using short pins and requiring only a small turn of the lock to release it.

2) Medeco locks are darn near impossible to pick. They can be defeated but you have to destroy the lock mechanism in the process.

3) A lock with protected shackle that's THICK will frustrate most bolt cutters.

4) Use a chain on one lock and a cable on another to maximize the would be thief's frustration. That requires two types of tool to get your bike.

5) Most "disk" locks (I'm reading this as a wafer tumbler locks) are fairly easy to pick.

6) Vault doors fairly well guarded. They have soft compunds that gum up your drill, hard plate that breaks your drill and various schemes to freeze the bolts (called relockers) if you blast or drill incorrectly. The sides and bottoms are frequently easier to drill through. The UL tests restrict the testers to a set of tools that are commonly available, but does not allow for plasma torches and shaped charges. A plasma torch makes short work of most burnable or meltable material.

Safes/vaults are facinating in their simplicity and ingenious designs. Most safes have specific spots that can be safely drilled to open them. These locations are kept secret by the folks who work on safes.

7) a good 6 or 7 pin lock with mushroom pins makes picking unattractive. Even a 5 lock pin with mushroom pins is a hassle.

8) Any lock can be defeated in a fairly short time by a knowledgeable person. The trick is knowing when to pick, cut, rap, shim etc.

9) I'd not rely on any lock to protect a bike overnight. But then again, most door locks are not any better.

Daniel


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## raggie33 (Sep 20, 2004)

man i hope no one still my bike ..i sometimes place it in back with snoop and dd. but when i lock it i use a lock i got for 1 buck but its seems very well made


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## LukeK (Sep 20, 2004)

Well I went out and bought a lock today with some regular 3/8" chain. It's not case hardened, but it will have to do until the case hardened stuff gets here (ordered it online). Very unfortunately, there is absolutely no room for me to bring my bike indoors, so it will have to do for now. The lock I bought is nowhere near top o' the line but it will do nicely. It's a disc shaped lock, much like you'd find at mini storage places. With both ends of the chain on you can't even see the shackle. Should be plenty for my purposes, most people around here have really crappy cable or combo locks anyways, so mine really shouldn't be the first target! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## markdi (Sep 20, 2004)

I have a rotozip with a cutting wheel atachment
it took about a minute to cut a criptonite lock open.


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## Lurker (Sep 20, 2004)

This thread reminds me of a friend who had the best bike lock she could find and yet her bike was stolen in a very expedient way. It happened while she was riding it. The theif just shoved her over onto the ground and grabbed the bike and rode off before she could even get back on her feet. She was so shocked that she hardly realized what happened until the bike was out of sight. This happened in Central Park, New York City. That's how you get a bike if you don’t have a bic pen.


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## Sub_Umbra (Sep 20, 2004)

OT

That reminds me of an article I read about thieves who only steal top-dollar bikes. They would case places with a consistently high number of high-value targets (Star bucks or whatever.) They would study the points that the patrons locked their bikes to and make a plan. 

When they found a particular 'locking point' that many people locked high-buck bikes to, they would return at three AM with a kit and tools to alter it. Whether it would be a signpost or a parking meter, they would cut it off and install an unobtrusive socket. In some cases the pole/meter could just be loosened from the concrete so it could be lifted right out and then replaced instantly. Once set up, the trap will not be wasted on anything but a high-value bike. If executed correctly, the pole (or whatever) will not be discovered and may be re-used time after time on many bikes.

Imagine someone who, over the months, has _tricked up_ four or five places that folks think are great to chain/lock their bikes to. All he has to do is cruise them and watch for expensive bikes. When a good one is spotted, the pole is just popped out of the ground and the bike, lock kit and all, are thrown into the van. All that's left to do is reset the trap for the next guy and take the bike home where the lock may be cut off in safety.

I always try to pull the pole out before I lock onto it.


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## Longbow (Sep 20, 2004)

A cordless abrasive disc grinder works great on chains, cables and pad locks!


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## NewBie (Sep 20, 2004)

I remember when I responded to a few calls and found shattered shanks on a few locks. Someone had found a new trick and was doing the town. Turns out they were using freeze spray or something like that and then just hitting it with a hammer to shatter the U- shaped shank.


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## 2dim (Sep 20, 2004)

*"A cordless abrasive disc grinder works great on chains, cables and pad locks!"*

I'm beginning to wonder about some of you guys...

So, uh, what light would you recommend for this 'work'? 

BTW, please give me a 'heads-up' whenever you're in Toronto, eh?


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## Deanster (Sep 20, 2004)

As a friend of mine notes, 'the best protection is poverty' - nobody steals a $75 bike or a $1000 car. 

I regularly leave my bike on a rack on an urban university campus (I'm staff there) overnight, and occasionally over a weekend (I forgot I'd left it there), with no difficulties. More luck than planning, though.


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## LukeK (Sep 20, 2004)

Strangely enough Deanster, it's the cheaper bikes that get stolen most often around here. It's probably because they are cheap that the owners don't put any effort into locking them up...


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## raggie33 (Sep 20, 2004)

man they steal everything here.darn thiefs are skum. they come right on my porch and steal of it


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## gadget_lover (Sep 20, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*Unregulated said:*
A cordless abrasive disc grinder works great on chains, cables and pad locks! 

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually it should not work very well on a well built security cable. A proper cable has a gummy component that clogs the grinding wheel. It also has case hardened components to deter cable cutters. It should be big enough in diameter to require a VERY large set of bolt cutters. A free turning armored sheath makes hacksaws ineffective.

The idea is not that you can hope to make it theft proof, but that you raise the cost of stealing it to the point where the bike next to it looks more attractive. Most theives only carry one or two tools when stealing bikes. Carry too many tools and you get easy to spot AND prosecute.

Daniel


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## Longbow (Sep 20, 2004)

The gummy material used on the high end security cables doesn't even slow down a good quality cutting disc---try it.


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## KC2IXE (Sep 20, 2004)

Didn't say you go in through the door - that's the hard way - the rebared concrete walls are usually easier

Back before Dad retired, he was an HVAC tech. One of their clients was a bank in the corner of a large department store. Part of the banks security was the fact that the departments store was there, and had their own security. Well, the dept store went out of business. One weekend someone snuck into the empty store with a diamond core drill, and went into the HVAC room that was right above the vault - they had plenty of time, as no one was checking the store - they used the core drill (cooled with the water from the HVAC towers) to drill a large hole in the roof of the vault (chain drilling) and they went in. That Monday, Dad had to go down to the bank....

Safe/vault doors can also be cracked "other" ways - IF there is at least a paper sized gap somewhere in the seal of the door, you drill in at an angle (so that you can pour in a liquid. You use a liguid type explosive, pour it in to the hole(s) (dripping) and THEN detonate it. The fact that it's INSIDE makes it take a LOT less bang

The REAL security in a vault isn't that impressive 7 ton door. It's the alarm system and a modern police force. You give someone 24-48 uninterupted hours, and they will get in - make it so that they trip the alarm system, and they only have 20-30 minutes tops. THEN you don't have enough TIME. The big vault is just to slow you down enough for the police/guards to get there


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## 2dim (Sep 20, 2004)

Here in TO any and ALL bikes are fair game, even if they have to be carried off, and that includes parts thereof.


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## 2dim (Sep 20, 2004)

Yes, it's all about opportunity and convenience. Make it difficult for them in a well-lighted area with many passersby and your bike stands the best chance. Just make sure you double-check that it is actually locked and to something relatively secure -- remember, we all make mistakes!


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## Pellidon (Sep 20, 2004)

I also read that Krypto style U bolt locks with the key in the end of the straight rod can be popped with a steel pipe. Locks in the middle of the rod are better against this kind of attack.


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## matt_j (Sep 21, 2004)

That cracked me up:

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/happy14.gif

Ebay auction

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/takeit.gif

(NOT!!!!!!!!)

Matt


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## Reptilezs (Sep 22, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*gadget_lover said:*
From my studies of locksmiting, I can state the following authoritatively;

snip 

5) Most "disk" locks (I'm reading this as a wafer tumbler locks) are fairly easy to pick.

snip

Daniel 

[/ QUOTE ]
disk locks are not the same as the wafer locks you see on filing cabinets. all the "disks" spin freely and if you try to drill it out the first disk will spin. the first disk is also hardened. here and here has some info http://www.chez.com/montmartre/abusplus.html has some pics


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## Doobs (Aug 27, 2015)

flashlight said:


> A closed shackle padlock is best but I guess not entirely suitable as a bike lock in some cases.



Best one I can think to use is the Forever Lock. Yes it has been defeated, but the method was quite time and cost prohibitive. Most attacks on these locks are going to be physical and you can find videos of people dumping liquid nitrogen all over these things and hitting them with hammers (they do not break). And no a tubular lock is not full proof. At the end of the day it is a pin and tumbler lock (if you want to know more about that: http://united-locksmith.net/blog/are-pin-tumbler-locks-safe). When it comes down to it you are going to need to have weirdness and obscure designs if you don't want people to pick your locks. But if you don't want people breaking your lock you need thick chunks of hardened steel. I am not sure if the forever lock is resistant to bolt cutter now that I think about it... Still though, pretty sturdy device. 

Remember that whatever you use the security will only be as strong as your weakest link. Old chains, locking on to a tree, rusted bench legs. Be careful about more that the lock that you use.

Hope that you can use this info to be just a little safer, and keep you property secure.


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## RickZ (Feb 20, 2016)

Doobs said:


> Best one I can think to use is the Forever Lock. Yes it has been defeated, but the method was quite time and cost prohibitive. Most attacks on these locks are going to be physical and you can find videos of people dumping liquid nitrogen all over these things and hitting them with hammers (they do not break). And no a tubular lock is not full proof. At the end of the day it is a pin and tumbler lock (if you want to know more about that: http://united-locksmith.net/blog/are-pin-tumbler-locks-safe). When it comes down to it you are going to need to have weirdness and obscure designs if you don't want people to pick your locks. But if you don't want people breaking your lock you need thick chunks of hardened steel. I am not sure if the forever lock is resistant to bolt cutter now that I think about it... Still though, pretty sturdy device.
> 
> Remember that whatever you use the security will only be as strong as your weakest link. Old chains, locking on to a tree, rusted bench legs. Be careful about more that the lock that you use.
> 
> Hope that you can use this info to be just a little safer, and keep you property secure.



no lock is that hard to beat. Think of bike locks as out running a bear, you just have to outrun your friend. if you lock your bike up alone, it has no friends to get eaten and will be taken none the less. I've seen trees cut down to get bikes. Lock it at a bike rack easily visible to cameras and people.


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## Milw light (Feb 20, 2016)

I use a NY tubular Forgettaboutit lock. Any lock can be cut but you need either time or sophisticated tools to cut this. A disc grinder will cut it in about 1 1/2 minutes with sparks & a lot of noise. Bolt cutter won't cut it. A torch & plasma cutter will cut it but most thieves don't have these. Kryptonite tested this years ago by parking a bike in a high crime NY neighborhood. Bike parts were stolen, I don't believe anyone even tried to cut this massive lock.


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