# Ra Clicky Part 5



## HDS_Systems (May 23, 2008)

[Note: this thread is continued from the previous thead. The post below is from the first post of the thread made on May 23, 2008]

I know many of you have been waiting a long time for this announcement. Wait no longer.

This thread is to discuss the technical aspects of the upcoming Ra Clicky flashlight. A preliminary description can be viewed here. We will be expanding the information available over the next month.

Henry.


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## StandardBattery (Nov 12, 2008)

Hopefully this thread will stay on topic with more facts and less fiction!


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## Robertesq1 (Nov 12, 2008)

in.


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## Axion (Nov 12, 2008)

I'd like to see guaranteed tint offered with the narrower beam and an optional 18650 battery tube. What are the chances of either of these being offered? I really like the sound of the Ra Clicky but I've got plenty of EDC lights, now I want run time.


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## Splunk_Au (Nov 12, 2008)

I just noticed that there was a reduction in the number of Clicky version available. Before there were like 5 or 6 different versions but now only 3, why?


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## UnderTheWeepingMoon (Nov 12, 2008)

I'm looking forward to this light and have high expectations, as I've now sold my Ti PD-S to be able to afford it. My U60GT is still my EDC and most used light and if the Clicky improves where the EDC series left off, it will be the ultimate EDC light.


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## Rob187 (Nov 12, 2008)

One thing the range reduction does is simplify my decision: It will be a Ra-140-CGT for me. Now, I'll get started on the waiting.


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## thermal guy (Nov 13, 2008)

Splunk_Au said:


> I just noticed that there was a reduction in the number of Clicky version available. Before there were like 5 or 6 different versions but now only 3, why?




https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/208286&page=7

Post #183


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## Dead_Nuts (Nov 13, 2008)

As we begin our fifth chapter and close in on 6 months of anticipation, weeping and gnashing of teeth, it seems that the Clicky is soon to be an in-hand reality.

What a long, strange trip it's been.


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## orcinus (Nov 13, 2008)

*gnash gnash*


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## senna94 (Nov 13, 2008)

Dead_Nuts said:


> As we begin our fifth chapter and close in on 6 months of anticipation, weeping and gnashing of teeth, it seems that the Clicky is soon to be an in-hand reality.
> 
> What a long, strange trip it's been.




It is the journey and not the destination that is important.


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## Badger_Girl (Nov 13, 2008)

Have they shipped??


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## LLCoolBeans (Nov 13, 2008)

Badger_Girl said:


> Have they shipped??



The current rumor is that a very small number of 140-C units have shipped and will be received by the retailers on early next week.

Henry has said that all standing pre-orders won't be fulfilled for a few weeks yet.


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## cave dave (Nov 13, 2008)

I expect it will be sometime next year before one can order, pay and receive a light all in less than two weeks. 

Expect constant backorders till then.


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## Dead_Nuts (Nov 13, 2008)

OK, who here thinks they will be first with a Clicky in hand? I ordered early, but never asked where in line I might be. It goes without saying that it is mandatory for the first recipient (or one of the first) to get pictures up here immediately.


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## SnWnMe (Nov 13, 2008)

If the pricing of the Twisty is any indication, I'm looking at next year for my Clicky fix when the prices come down (or when they hit the used market)


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## turbodog (Nov 13, 2008)

Dead_Nuts said:


> OK, who here thinks they will be first with a Clicky in hand? I ordered early, but never asked where in line I might be. It goes without saying that it is mandatory for the first recipient (or one of the first) to get pictures up here immediately.



Will do. I 'preordered' over a year ago.


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## streetmaster (Nov 13, 2008)

SnWnMe said:


> If the pricing of the Twisty is any indication, I'm looking at next year for my Clicky fix when the prices come down (or when they hit the used market)


+1

I'm in the same boat. :mecry:


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## Dead_Nuts (Nov 14, 2008)




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## NightFlyer (Nov 14, 2008)

Dead_Nuts said:


> OK, who here thinks they will be first with a Clicky in hand? I ordered early, but never asked where in line I might be. It goes without saying that it is mandatory for the first recipient (or one of the first) to get pictures up here immediately.



Who here? Pretty certain Henry has already had one in hand. 

Now the rest of us, who knows. Won't be me, I haven't ordered just yet. Still have to figure out the money part. I will order one though.


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## HDS_Systems (Nov 15, 2008)

All,

The first volume run is nearing completion. Starting next week we will be shipping lights very regularly. We are making all models and shipping them to all dealers so that no one model will be in short supply. We expect to complete the existing backlog around the end of the month so there should be no problem using the Ra Clicky as a stocking stuffer. 

For those that ordered the "prototypes" - the new electronics in the original prototype bodies - nearly all of those shipped today. The rest will ship next week. We still have a few left if you are interested. I am sure some of the current owners will be posting photos shortly.

Henry.


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## ChocolateLab33 (Nov 15, 2008)

:twothumbs


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## jojobos (Nov 15, 2008)

Henry, I would like to get the prototype. Email sent. Thank you.


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## luxlover (Nov 15, 2008)

ChocolateLab33 said:


> :twothumbs


Hey Lisa. Let me guess, you are goiing to get a Clicky after all??? Be  like ME!

Jeff


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## m16a (Nov 15, 2008)

ChocolateLab33 said:


> :twothumbs



I most heartily second that. :twothumbs


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## Optik49 (Nov 15, 2008)

What’s the difference in the prototype?


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## paxxus (Nov 15, 2008)

Who knows, maybe I'll have a 140Cn in my hands this year after all... :twothumbs


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## m16a (Nov 15, 2008)

Optik49 said:


> What’s the difference in the prototype?



If I recall correctly, they are clicky electronics in an older HDS body. Anyone more experienced care to elaborate/correct me?


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## Optik49 (Nov 15, 2008)

Sorry wrong thread.


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## LLCoolBeans (Nov 15, 2008)

m16a said:


> If I recall correctly, they are clicky electronics in an older HDS body. Anyone more experienced care to elaborate/correct me?



Well, we do know for sure that the Prototypes will share the same exact internal electronics as the production Clicky.

However, no one knows what they will actually look like. It has been educationally speculated that they will look something like the offspring between a NovaTac EDC and a Ra Clicky. Won't be long now before we find out for sure.


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## streetmaster (Nov 15, 2008)

Optik49 said:


> Ok, I received it a couple of days ago. I like the flood and the high punches right through the center for some distance. When I was using it it was a little foggy and the beam looked like one of those HID photos. To my eye the beam is a nice white with no yellow, blue or purple. I absolutely love the tritium. It should be on everything. I think I’m hooked on these things. Now I just need to build up enough nerve to carry it and not just keep it on the nightstand.


OK, I have to say this...


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## LLCoolBeans (Nov 15, 2008)

Optik49 said:


> Ok, I received *it* a couple of days ago. I like the flood and the high punches right through the center for some distance. When I was using it it was a little foggy and the beam looked like one of those HID photos. To my eye the beam is a nice white with no yellow, blue or purple. I absolutely love the tritium. It should be on everything. I think I’m hooked on these things. Now I just need to build up enough nerve to carry it and not just keep it on the nightstand.




You received what a couple of days ago!!!!? A Ra-Clicky!!!? Where's our photos!!?

I thought we had a pact!?


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## Dead_Nuts (Nov 15, 2008)

Yes, I thought it was clearly understood that the early receivers and posters were mandated to post pics!

:thumbsdow


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## Optik49 (Nov 15, 2008)

Sorry, that was for the LunaSol20 thread. LOL I got one to hold me over. Suddenly I feel like when the Clicky gets here it gets here. I be playing with the LunaSol20.


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## Kid9P (Nov 15, 2008)




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## Dead_Nuts (Nov 15, 2008)

The 'tritium' comment was confusing and exciting all at the same time.


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## Optik49 (Nov 15, 2008)

First light I have had with it. It’s pretty amazing stuff.


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## SaturnNyne (Nov 16, 2008)

Hello, everyone. Since the first few Clickies are now on their way to dealers, I've gone ahead and created the Clicky serial registry. Please do keep it in mind when yours arrives. 

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?p=2701704

(psst orcinus, remember our discussion a couple weeks ago?)


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## ChocolateLab33 (Nov 16, 2008)

luxlover said:


> Hey Lisa. Let me guess, you are goiing to get a Clicky after all??? Be  like ME!
> 
> Jeff


 
Jeff,

I am waiting for my Ra Clicky GT. I know this light will be awesome but at this point I don't think I will have it by my birthday. (16 more days) I'm glad I'm #1 on the list though.


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## luxlover (Nov 16, 2008)

ChocolateLab33 said:


> Jeff,
> I am waiting for my Ra Clicky GT. I know this light will be awesome but at this point I don't think I will have it by my birthday. (16 more days) I'm glad I'm #1 on the list though.


Lisa,
"It ain't over until the fat lady sings!" Don't give up.

Based on Henry's latest post, and the fact that Russ will be getting more lights by this Friday, I cannot see Henry NOT sending Russ at least one 140Cgt light. Since your birthday is Dec. 2nd, a Tuesday, if Russ gets a 140Cgt anytime before Fri. Nov. 28th, one of those will have your name on it and be in your dainty hands by Mon. Dec. 1st.  Now isn't that the best birthday present a gal could have.....other than a five carat diamond ring, that is?

Jeff


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## ChocolateLab33 (Nov 16, 2008)

Yes, yes, yes!!! I hate diamonds anyway. :naughty:


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## luxlover (Nov 16, 2008)

ChocolateLab33 said:


> I hate diamonds anyway. :naughty:


Really? Tell me some more LIES! :naughty: :naughty:


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## orcinus (Nov 16, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> (psst orcinus, remember our discussion a couple weeks ago?)



(the plan is afoot! i repeat, the plan is afoot! prepare the laser equipped sharks and start the earth-mantle drilling machines!)


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## luxlover (Nov 16, 2008)

orcinus said:


> (the plan is afoot! I repeat, the plan is afoot! Prepare the laser equipped sharks and start the earth-mantle drilling machines!)


You guys will need a reliable, durable, dependable, versatile, flexible, robust, powerful, efficient multi-level, multi-light show lighting tool, for those dark and menacing mantle crevices. I recommend a Ra Clicky 140C/140Cn/140Cgt. :thinking:

Jeff


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## m16a (Nov 16, 2008)

orcinus said:


> (the plan is afoot! i repeat, the plan is afoot! prepare the laser equipped sharks and start the earth-mantle drilling machines!)




HEY!! You forgot about the radar equipped recon pigeons!!!


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## SaturnNyne (Nov 16, 2008)

ahh orcinus, I see you remember it exactly!   And good call, Jeff, we certainly wouldn't forget that part.

Lisa, best of luck to you, I'll be hoping to see you in my registry thread before the 2nd. As Jeff said, your chances are very good.


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## discoverEDC (Nov 16, 2008)

I'm in. I've followed this thread at a distance but the gravitational pull of the Clicky was too much to resist...

luxlover, you were the first to welcome me to the CPF when I posted about ordering my EDC Basic 42 XRGT, it's good to see you posting again.

SaturnNyne, I will register my 140c as soon as it is in my hands :thumbsup:

Regards,
Walt


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## luxlover (Nov 17, 2008)

discoverEDC said:


> I'm in. I've followed this thread at a distance but the gravitational pull of the Clicky was too much to resist...
> 
> Luxlover, you were the first to welcome me to the CPF when I posted about ordering my EDC Basic 42 XRGT. It's good to see you posting again.
> 
> ...


Walt,
The pull of a Clicky is more intense than that of a Black Hole. Few can resist being sucked in!

I am so glad that I used my high pressure sales tactics when I saw your interest in Henry's first series of lights. Thank you for remembering, and thank you for noticing my return to this hallowed place! Are you still at the honeymoon phase with your B42XRGT?

Saturn is getting very itchy to start entering "real" serial numbers, and we better help him scratch that itch soon.

Jeff


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## discoverEDC (Nov 17, 2008)

luxlover said:


> Walt,
> The pull of a Clicky is more intense than that of a Black Hole. Few can resist being sucked in!
> 
> I am so glad that I used my high pressure sales tactics when I saw your interest in Henry's first series of lights. Thank you for remembering, and thank you for noticing my return to this hallowed place! Are you still at the honeymoon phase with your B42XRGT?
> ...


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## SaturnNyne (Nov 17, 2008)

discoverEDC said:


> SaturnNyne, I will register my 140c as soon as it is in my hands :thumbsup:


I look forward to your visit to the registry! :thumbsup:



luxlover said:


> Saturn is getting very itchy to start entering "real" serial numbers, and we better help him scratch that itch soon.


Jeff, I don't think I was the one who spent the morning running tests on the registration formatting.... I was itchy to get things up and rolling. Now that it's taken care of, I'm waiting with patient enthusiasm.


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## shae (Nov 17, 2008)

luxlover said:


> The pull of a Clicky is more intense than that of a Black Hole. Few can resist being sucked in!


If the Clicky pull is more intense than a black hole, how does the light get out of the Clicky? Truly a marvel of modern engineering! :laughing:


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## orcinus (Nov 17, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> ahh orcinus, I see you remember it exactly!   And good call, Jeff, we certainly wouldn't forget that part.



Hmmm... Maybe we could strap the Clickies on the sharks...


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## luxlover (Nov 17, 2008)

shae said:


> If the Clicky pull is more intense than a black hole, how does the light get out of the Clicky? Truly a marvel of modern engineering! :laughing:


I meant that the gravitational pull of a Clicky when confronted by a prospective buyer, is like that of a Black Hole.


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## luxlover (Nov 17, 2008)

orcinus said:


> Hmmm... Maybe we could strap the Clickies on the sharks...


According to Henry, the Clicky's two atmosphere depth rating is very conservative, because it can safely be exposed to depths greater than that of a properly geared diver. So if you can find a shark that will hold still long enough to mount it on it's dorsal fin, GO FOR IT!


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## turbodog (Nov 17, 2008)

Prototype clicky alongside a twisty.























Initial observations:

1. This is a prototype batch. Basically it appears to be a novatac with all the problems fixed.
2. The milling/machining is good. The cutouts in the battery tube are concentric (my novatac wasn't).
3. The edges on the body tube's milled flats are sharp, sharp enough to say "hey!" about.
4. Beam pattern is exactly like my novatac. I was hoping for a more intense spot like the twisty.
5. Beam color is quite good.
6. Positive and negative springs are from the twisty.
7. Retaining rings are still used, but are upgraded in thickness and height.


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## LLCoolBeans (Nov 17, 2008)

Holy crow! It really does look like a NT. 

Too bad the parts won't interchange.


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## FredericoFreire (Nov 17, 2008)

Thanks for the pics, Turbodog!

Does the prototype has the same agressive knurling as the HDS EDC had or it is smooth as the Ra Twisty ?


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## luxlover (Nov 17, 2008)

Turbo,
Is the mechanism in the tailcap _stock NovaTac_, including the grey rubber battery stop?

Jeff


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## turbodog (Nov 17, 2008)

LLCoolBeans said:


> Holy crow! It really does look like a NT.
> 
> Too bad the parts won't interchange.



This is the proto run. Pics from the normal run should be appearing soon. Parts *MAY* interchange, but you won't find me doing any research into that.


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## turbodog (Nov 17, 2008)

FredericoFreire said:


> Thanks for the pics, Turbodog!
> 
> Does the prototype has the same agressive knurling as the HDS EDC had or it is smooth as the Ra Twisty ?



It's a little rougher than the twisty, but still a good way away from the original edc.


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## luxlover (Nov 17, 2008)

turbodog said:


> This is the proto run. Pics from the normal run should be appearing soon. Parts *MAY* interchange, but you won't find me doing any research into that.


Turbo,
No testing? Have you gone "yellow" on us?


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## turbodog (Nov 17, 2008)

luxlover said:


> Turbo,
> Is the mechanism in the tailcap _stock NovaTac_, including the grey rubber battery stop?
> 
> Jeff



No. It uses the retaining rings though , but they look about twice as high/thick/etc as novatac's. Both pos and neg springs are twisty-design type.


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## luxlover (Nov 17, 2008)

turbodog said:


> No. It uses the retaining rings though , but they look about twice as high/thick/etc as novatac's. Both pos and neg springs are twisty-design type.


Good, a high velocity frontal impact will allow the battery to maintain full connectivity. That's the way we like our lights!


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## FredericoFreire (Nov 17, 2008)

turbodog said:


> It's a little rougher than the twisty, but still a good way away from the original edc.



Thanks for the fast answer!

Any chance of a reflector picture?

It is LOP like the Ra Twisty or crappy smooth just like the HDS EDC ?


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## tebore (Nov 17, 2008)

luxlover said:


> According to Henry, the Clicky's two atmosphere depth rating is very conservative, because it can safely be exposed to depths greater than that of a properly geared diver. So if you can find a shark that will hold still long enough to mount it on it's dorsal fin, GO FOR IT!



While it might stay dry at depths greater than 2 Atmospheres. The button will no longer function as intended, it'll be stuck on on "max". You could program around this but you won't be able to turn it off.



turbodog said:


> Prototype clicky alongside a twisty.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So many questions I don't know where to start. What LED is used? how are the temps, runtimes? How's the threading? What does the button look like? Do the parts work with the old EDCs? I got more but this is all for now.


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## turbodog (Nov 17, 2008)

tebore said:


> ...
> So many questions I don't know where to start. What LED is used? how are the temps, runtimes? How's the threading? What does the button look like? Do the parts work with the old EDCs? I got more but this is all for now.





You must not have looked at the photos I posted...


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## tebore (Nov 17, 2008)

turbodog said:


> You must not have looked at the photos I posted...



Your pictures showed me the temps, runtime, tailcap spring, parts interchanging with the EDC, which LED is used? Man If they did I do apologize for not looking at them.

The pics are too blurry to show the threads properly.


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## turbodog (Nov 17, 2008)

FredericoFreire said:


> Thanks for the fast answer!
> 
> Any chance of a reflector picture?
> 
> It is LOP like the Ra Twisty or crappy smooth just like the HDS EDC ?



Like I said... it's pretty much a novatac with the problems fixed. It's got the same menu/etc as the production models will have.

Also, for those that misunderstand what I mean by "prototype". This is part of a run of maybe 100 lights that Henry made using some old bodies. So, in short, the REAL run of lights will look like the pics on his website.


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## turbodog (Nov 17, 2008)

tebore said:


> Your pictures showed me the temps, runtime, tailcap spring, parts interchanging with the EDC, which LED is used? Man If they did I do apologize for not looking at them.
> 
> The pics are too blurry to show the threads properly.



Yes, ALL those things are in the pictures. Look more closely.

 

As far as the led goes. It's round with a square yellow center. Looks like the novatac series.


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## tebore (Nov 17, 2008)

turbodog said:


> Yes, ALL those things are in the pictures. Look more closely.
> 
> 
> 
> As far as the led goes. It's round with a square yellow center. Looks like the novatac series.




It was between the golden dragon and the P4. Looks like he went with the P4. The golden dragon would give you the narrower beam. 

I am curious to see how the smaller less hefty body affects the temps and runtimes compared to the heftier bodies of the twisty and clicky.


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## FredericoFreire (Nov 17, 2008)

turbodog said:


> Like I said... it's pretty much a novatac with the problems fixed. It's got the same menu/etc as the production models will have.
> 
> Also, for those that misunderstand what I mean by "prototype". This is part of a run of maybe 100 lights that Henry made using some old bodies. So, in short, the REAL run of lights will look like the pics on his website.



I know this is the Proto that Henry anounced while back. The Ra Clicky will look like the one at the website, and will have the bezel ring just like the Ra Twisty.

Since I don't own a Novatac, I was wondering about how does the reflector looks like.


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## luxlover (Nov 17, 2008)

tebore said:


> While it might stay dry at depths greater than 2 Atmospheres. The button will no longer function as intended, it'll be stuck on on "max". You could program around this but you won't be able to turn it off.
> 
> So many questions I don't know where to start. What LED is used? how are the temps, runtimes? How's the threading? What does the button look like? Do the parts work with the old EDCs? I got more but this is all for now.


Tebore,
A thousand lashes on my bare bottom, for equating Henry's rating for the Clicky with that of the Twisty. Indeed the Clicky button will be pressed in all the way, once the water pressure is great enough. Therefore, there will be no way to change anything on the light once the light has been exposed to that water pressure. The switch must return to the neutral position, in order to initiate another command.

Take it easy, tebore. You are going to blow a head gasket if you work yourself up with so many questions!  

Jeff


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## tebore (Nov 17, 2008)

luxlover said:


> Tebore,
> A thousand lashes on my bare bottom, for equating Henry's rating for the Clicky with that of the Twisty. Indeed the Clicky button will be pressed in all the way, once the water pressure is great enough. Therefore, there will be no way to change anything on the light once the light has been exposed to that water pressure. The switch must return to the neutral position, in order to initiate another command.
> 
> Take it easy, tebore. You are going to blow a head gasket if you work yourself up with so many questions!
> ...



I'd be more worried about operating the twisty underwater without double O-rings movement can let water through. Also 2 Atmospheres of static pressure, not dive rated. The dive guys can give you many reasons not to take it underwater. But still I wouldn't hesitate to take my EDC underwater.

Can't help the excitement. I haven't posted this much until you came out of hiding. I don't know how but you stir up excitement like it's your job. :twothumbs I just waiting to see reviews before I decide on the clicky.


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## luxlover (Nov 17, 2008)

tebore said:


> I'd be more worried about operating the twisty underwater. 2 Atmospheres of static pressure, not dive rated. The dive guys can give you many reasons not to take it underwater. I wouldn't hesitate to take my EDC underwater.
> 
> Can't help the excitement. I haven't posted this much until you came out of hiding. I don't know how, but you stir up excitement like it's your job. :twothumbs I am just waiting to see reviews, before I decide on the Clicky.


My enthusiasm about Henry's lights has always been infectious, because all of my posts have shown that I believe in Henry's products. Add this.....since May 2005, each of his lights has been my EDC pardner.

With all your excitement about everybody else's pre-orders, are you telling us that you have not yet pre-ordered a Clicky? I am flabbergasted! I am outraged. Hey guys, can we exile, excommunicate and/or exorcize tebore for his apparent "deception?"  

Do yourself a favor, and at least pre-order a Clicky. Get in line!

Jeff


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## tebore (Nov 17, 2008)

luxlover said:


> My enthusiasm about Henry's lights has always been infectious, because all of my posts have shown that I believe in Henry's products. Add this.....since May 2005, each of his lights has been my EDC pardner.
> 
> With all your excitement about everybody else's pre-orders, are you telling us that you have not yet pre-ordered a Clicky? I am flabbergasted! I am outraged. Hey guys, can we exile, excommunicate and/or exorcize tebore for his apparent "deception?"
> 
> ...



I'm an engineering study turned finance major. I would never pre-order anything.


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## luxlover (Nov 17, 2008)

tebore said:


> I'm an engineering study turned finance major. I would never pre-order anything.


Sorry to hear that! :mecry: But pre-ordering is NOT the same as pre-paying! I did NOT pre-pay. Russtang is a good guy. He allows a list to be appended, without payment being required. There is nothing to lose and everything to gain, by "taking a number!" 

Jeff


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## paxxus (Nov 17, 2008)

turbodog said:


> Like I said... it's pretty much a novatac with the problems fixed.


Except for the retaining ring. I'd say that the retaining ring was one of the major errors with the NT. First it can easily come loose as the battery tube treads against it, and second, a LE which just plops into the body will have a much poorer thermal path compared to one that screws into the body.


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## kromeke (Nov 17, 2008)

Got my clicky prototype today as well. Agreed that it is pretty much a NT with the problems* fixed. 

Re: retaining rings,
I've EDC'd my novatac 85 p for over a year now. I haven't had any troubles with retaining ring issues. Any problems are IMO a result of poor assembly. It appears that the prototype has the rings threadlocked in place. I tried using my NT wrench to loosen them. (my NT wrench is custom made my me). I will go for a full dissassembly later. Gotta make some clip holes for the old arc style clip.

Black anodized body, the matte stainless bezel ring has a slight internal taper to it, nice touch. Has a P4 emitter by all appearances. Once programming mode is enabled, it functions like an NT. Length is a 32nd over 3 1/2 inches. 

Sweet, I'm satisfied by first impressions anyway.

Edit: The lowest setting (customized) is lower than the lowest Novatac setting. It appears to be even lower than the HDS B42 I have (reprogrammed for the lowest low).

*Edit2: I never considered the "problems" with the Novatac to be real problems, but the low flicker received a lot of criticism here. The clicky prototype is a further refinement of the Novatac design.


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## cabbynate (Nov 17, 2008)

Anyone no the price on the prototype?
Looks like a nice light......


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## turbodog (Nov 17, 2008)

tebore said:


> It was between the golden dragon and the P4. Looks like he went with the P4. The golden dragon would give you the narrower beam.
> 
> I am curious to see how the smaller less hefty body affects the temps and runtimes compared to the heftier bodies of the twisty and clicky.



Smaller? Nope. Body's same size as twisty.


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## turbodog (Nov 17, 2008)

paxxus said:


> Except for the retaining ring. I'd say that the retaining ring was one of the major errors with the NT. First it can easily come loose as the battery tube treads against it, and second, a LE which just plops into the body will have a much poorer thermal path compared to one that screws into the body.




This ring's much beefier that the novatac. That's more thread area for more torque and more thread area for the loctite to hold onto.

Also, Henry says the light engine's *potted to the entire body*. The rings are there for cosmetic purposes mainly. He says the engine will NOT come out.


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## SaturnNyne (Nov 17, 2008)

cabbynate said:


> Anyone no the price on the prototype?
> Looks like a nice light......


Same as the 100/140C, because that's what it is internally.

Which is why...


tebore said:


> It was between the golden dragon and the P4. Looks like he went with the P4. The golden dragon would give you the narrower beam.


There was definitely no chance of it being the GD. He made the choice to use the Wide beam internals months ago and would not offer the option to switch it to Narrow, I asked.



tebore said:


> I'm an engineering study turned finance major. I would never pre-order anything.


Ha, good call!


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## paxxus (Nov 17, 2008)

turbodog said:


> This ring's much beefier that the novatac. That's more thread area for more torque and more thread area for the loctite to hold onto.
> 
> Also, Henry says the light engine's *potted to the entire body*. The rings are there for cosmetic purposes mainly. He says the engine will NOT come out.


OK, I see, cool.

(can't understand what "cosmetic" purpose an internal component could offer though)


----------



## SaturnNyne (Nov 17, 2008)

Hi turbo, thanks for getting photos up so quickly! Good work. :thumbsup:



turbodog said:


> This is the proto run. Pics from the normal run should be appearing soon. Parts *MAY* interchange, but you won't find me doing any research into that.





tebore said:


> Do the parts work with the old EDCs?


Henry has already stated that the prototype parts will not interchange with those of either EDCs or production Ras. We've heard that before, of course, but I have reason to believe it this time.



turbodog said:


> Also, for those that misunderstand what I mean by "prototype". This is part of a run of maybe 100 lights that Henry made using some old bodies. So, in short, the REAL run of lights will look like the pics on his website.


Yes, we know what it is, and it's plenty real enough to get excited over. Also real enough to count as an odd form of Clicky, in my opinion, since it uses the same internals and is built by Ra. That means it's real enough that an early owner of a prototype could be the first official registration on the-- oh nevermind, I was going to give you a hint but I see you already beat me to it! :twothumbs




kromeke said:


> Black anodized body


Black anodize? Henry said it's HA natural, and Turbo's photos of it compared to a Twisty confirm that. Is yours different somehow?



kromeke said:


> The lowest setting (customized) is lower than the lowest Novatac setting. It appears to be even lower than the HDS B42 I have (reprogrammed for the lowest low).


Part of that might be due to the less defined spot, but it is actually ever so slightly dimmer, 0.07lm instead of 0.08.




FredericoFreire said:


> It is LOP like the Ra Twisty or crappy smooth just like the HDS EDC ?


You really had a problem with artifacts in an HDS beam? Anyway, it wasn't actually smooth, if you look very closely.


----------



## kromeke (Nov 17, 2008)

Well, mine looks to be black anodized. My HDS B42 is olive, the Novatac 85P looks to be a light olive, My Surefire U2 is black (slightly purple in some spots). 
Yes, the specs do say that it has a 0.07lm low. Ever so slightly lower than the B42.

It has a larger hotspot than the 85P.

Not so sure about the potting in place. Is that for the prototype or the production models? This one has a red anodized bulkhead where the emitter mounts, similar looking to the Novatac's light engine. I'm afraid to try too hard to remove the rings, so I'm not in a hurry to take it apart.


----------



## Not So Bright (Nov 17, 2008)

The Clicky has landed!

Just got home, had maybe 5 min with my new Ra 140C.

I'll TRY to post some pic's after I get back from work. (and had some quality time with my new Clicky)

:wave:


----------



## SaturnNyne (Nov 17, 2008)

Kromeke, very interesting. I've noted the different anodize on the registry.

Not So Bright, congratulations on being the first! We're all looking forward to further reports. And I've got you all registered up too.


----------



## karlthev (Nov 17, 2008)

Proto arrived...and paid for!!!:shrug:



Karl


----------



## SaturnNyne (Nov 17, 2008)

karlthev said:


> Proto arrived...and paid for!!!:shrug:


Isn't it usually the other way around?


----------



## tsl (Nov 17, 2008)

turbodog said:


> Also, Henry says the light engine's *potted to the entire body*. The rings are there for cosmetic purposes mainly. He says the engine will NOT come out.


 
Does that mean that you can't do an emitter upgrade later?

Seeing as Novatac's can be had for one-half to two-thirds the price, is the prototype that much a better light?


----------



## turbodog (Nov 17, 2008)

paxxus said:


> OK, I see, cool.
> 
> (can't understand what "cosmetic" purpose an internal component could offer though)



Restated... rings don't hold the LE in so much as they are conductive for the ground path.


----------



## turbodog (Nov 17, 2008)

tsl said:


> Does that mean that you can't do an emitter upgrade later?
> 
> Seeing as Novatac's can be had for one-half to two-thirds the price, is the prototype that much a better light?



In my opinion....

Novatac's stuck with the (unfinished) light that Henry designed. They are offering price cuts and different colors, but that light is finished. Henry's offering new models with new/more powerful features.

If we were to NOT support Henry, he would fold and we would have no lights of this type.

At this time, and for not much longer, the novatac _is_ a decent light for the price.... unless their price/production cuts keep dropping the quality. Even before the recent cuts it had some semi-serious problems. And now....

If you like novatac lights.... wait a week or two. Once the new ra lights start shipping in bulk there'll be plenty of novatacs for sale.


----------



## tsl (Nov 17, 2008)

turbodog said:


> Initial observations:
> 
> 3. The edges on the body tube's milled flats are sharp, sharp enough to say "hey!" about.


 
Are we talking about the edges of the tube itself or the milled flat areas inscribed with the S/N and RaLights.com?


----------



## HDS_Systems (Nov 17, 2008)

LLCoolBeans,

No, it looks like a slightly stretched EDC Ultimate with two flats for lettering and a PD bezel. The interior is very different, with all previous known bugs fixed.

LuxLover,

You will not find any gray rubber baby buggy bumpers in our tail caps because we do not need them to control battery movement. And so you won't see any thread problems that are common to another design.

Tebore,

The runtime characteristics will be the same for the two lights. The thermal characteristics are similar - with the prototype being perhaps a couple of degrees higher temps when running on the high setting - not a real significant difference.

There is no part interchangeability between the protos and any other flashlights. As I have said many times in the past, the thread design is completely different. And a lot of other things are quite different as well.

The LED choice for the prototypes was made over a year ago when the parts were produced. Once the aluminum is cut there is no changing your mind.

FredericoFreire,

Both reflectors use a light orange peel finish. However, the two reflectors use very different designs.

Paxxus,

Although the design of the prototype may look similar to another, I think you will find that the two are very different. The retaining ring is actually only used as a shim and is firmly attached and should not come loose over time. The power supply is built in and cannot be removed and has a much better thermal path than the design you are comparing it to. And then assembling the flashlight correctly - as it was designed to be assembled - gets around quite a few other problems.

The power supply changed after the bodies were cut and so the ring in the head had to stay, even though the power supply no longer needed one. Sometimes things have to be done for historical (hysterical) reasons...

The prototypes should be considered as an EDC Ultimate on steroids.

SaturnNyne,

All of the prototypes are black. There are slight variations in black and the reflections in the photo off of the counter top can have an affect of what color the camera sees.

Kromeke,

You have to remember that the prototype is a combination of an earlier mechanical design with a later mechanical design. The original design used a separate heat sink while the new design uses an integrated heat sink. One of the internal parts had to be modified to allow the designs to mesh. Remember, prototypes really are prototypes and not production units - although we always strive to build them to full production quality.

Henry.


----------



## LLCoolBeans (Nov 17, 2008)

HDS_Systems said:


> LLCoolBeans,
> No, it looks like a slightly stretched EDC Ultimate with two flats for lettering and a PD bezel. The interior is very different, with all previous known bugs fixed.



lol. Gotcha, nudge nudge, wink wink. You are absolutely right. What was I thinking? Say no more, say no more.


----------



## SaturnNyne (Nov 17, 2008)

HDS_Systems said:


> All of the prototypes are black. There are slight variations in black and the reflections in the photo off of the counter top can have an affect of what color the camera sees.


Thanks for clearing that up. Hmm, does that mean you changed your mind since a couple months ago when you told me "the finish is natural hard anodize"? Or did our lines get crossed somehow.


----------



## tebore (Nov 17, 2008)

Henry any plans to make anymore of these Clicky "Classics"?


----------



## LLCoolBeans (Nov 17, 2008)

tebore said:


> Henry any plans to make anymore of these Clicky "Classics"?



Ooh, I like that. Clicky Classic

That's what it looks like Henry, a Clicky Classic.


----------



## Not So Bright (Nov 17, 2008)

I've been putting my Ra 140C thru some customization.
Here is a few things I've found: Low,low does not flicker.
My Clicky wobbles during tail stand.
The beam is the same as my Tw Twisty. Tint is a little on the violet side.
My Twisty is the same.
The 10 second burst works as advertised, dropping down to the next lower level after 10 seconds. 
Holes are pre-drilled and tapped for clip attachment. Just like my EDC B42XRGT. 

Sorry, I am still trying to post some pic's. :sigh:


I'd like to give :twothumbs to Henry for a job well done.


----------



## matrixshaman (Nov 17, 2008)

Thanks for the brief review NSB. If you have trouble getting the pics up you can email them to me and I'll either host them direct from my web site or one of the pic hosting sites (that assumes it is just a problem getting them here and not from your camera to computer). 
BTW can you tell if the clip holes are the same spacing as the HDS EDC lights?


----------



## matrixshaman (Nov 17, 2008)

A thought on wobbly clicky tail standing  I have noticed a fair variation in even same series of tail caps (see Lighthound if he still has them and the explanations). I have a theory about how some become more wobbly. If the light is shipped from a low elevation to a higher elevation with the cap screwed down tight and especially with no battery I think the common expansion that occurs (have you noticed expanded or blown up bottles of partly full liquid after driving from low elevation to high in the mountains?) forces tail switch out enough the deform the rubber a little bit (or whatever the soft tail switch material is made from). If there is any validity to this theory then it might be a good idea to ship lights with the tail unscrewed enough so there is not an air tight seal. 
Actually I'd have to call this more of a wild guess than a theory - but just from some observations of lights received when I lived at a high elevation seemed to support it. :thinking:


----------



## HDS_Systems (Nov 17, 2008)

SaturnNyne,

We probably just got some wires crossed.

Tebore,

Clicky Classic... Interesting. No, we don't have any plans for another run. When the prototypes are gone, you will have to make use of B/S/T over at the marketplace.

MatrixShaman,

The hole spacing is not the same.

The button will expand when going to higher elevations. I notice it when going from Tucson up to Mt. Lemmon - an elevation change of 5000 - 7000 depending on where you end up. Opening the battery compartment returns the button to the normal position. Going down, there is not enough pressure to affect button operation.

Henry.


----------



## turbodog (Nov 18, 2008)

Not So Bright said:


> ...
> Holes are pre-drilled and tapped for clip attachment. Just like my EDC B42XRGT.
> ...
> 
> ...



Holes?

Mine didn't come with holes drilled or tapped.


----------



## turbodog (Nov 18, 2008)

matrixshaman said:


> ...
> BTW can you tell if the clip holes are the same spacing as the HDS EDC lights?



Verdict is not in on the holes. Mine has none.

What gives???


----------



## tebore (Nov 18, 2008)

turbodog said:


> Verdict is not in on the holes. Mine has none.
> 
> What gives???



Proto vs Production. 

His production light has holes and your proto doesn't....

That's my theory.


----------



## SaturnNyne (Nov 18, 2008)

Not So Bright said:


> My Clicky wobbles during tail stand.


Ha, just like old times.  I prefer a completely solid tailstand, but I'm so used to the wobble on my B42 that it's become kind of an endearing little flaw to me.




turbodog said:


> Mine didn't come with holes drilled or tapped.





tebore said:


> Proto vs Production.
> 
> His production light has holes and your proto doesn't....
> 
> That's my theory.


Bingo.


----------



## luxlover (Nov 18, 2008)

Not So Bright said:


> I've been putting my Ra 140C thru some customization.
> Here is a few things I've found: Low,low does not flicker.
> My Clicky wobbles during tail stand.
> The beam is the same as my Tw Twisty. Tint is a little on the violet side.
> ...


Nice to see your micro/mini review so soon. Keep the juicy comments coming!

Jeff


----------



## UnderTheWeepingMoon (Nov 18, 2008)

Not So Bright, did the light come with a pocket clip as well or just the holes? It will be a deal breaker for me if the light does not come with a pocket clip, as I like to carry my EDC lights clipped to my pocket.


----------



## karlthev (Nov 18, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> Isn't it usually the other way around?





For some possibly SN. I prefer to take the chance and, "walk" vs. "talk"!


Karl


----------



## SaturnNyne (Nov 18, 2008)

UnderTheWeepingMoon said:


> Not So Bright, did the light come with a pocket clip as well or just the holes? It will be a deal breaker for me if the light does not come with a pocket clip, as I like to carry my EDC lights clipped to my pocket.


The clips have been delayed but will be along when they're ready.
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2695453&postcount=329

Edit: \m/


----------



## gottawearshades (Nov 18, 2008)

Quick question:

Looking through the documentation, I don't see a reference to SOS or what NovaTac called "emergency strobe."

Has this been eliminated from the Clicky? I think the slow strobe could be useful in some situations.


----------



## FredericoFreire (Nov 18, 2008)

Not So Bright said:


> Holes are pre-drilled and tapped for clip attachment. Just like my EDC B42XRGT.



What are the threads on the pocket clip holes? #4-40 ?


----------



## luxlover (Nov 18, 2008)

tebore said:


> Henry any plans to make anymore of these Clicky "Classics"?


Klassy Clicky = Clicky Classic


----------



## luxlover (Nov 18, 2008)

gottawearshades said:


> Quick question:
> Looking through the documentation, I don't see a reference to SOS or what NovaTac called "emergency strobe."
> 
> Has this been eliminated from the Clicky? I think the slow strobe could be useful in some situations.


The middle right column of page 1 of the Customization Guide verbally describes SOS. The bottom table pictorially describes SOS. It is no longer part of the Options Menu, as it was in the EDC models and the "competition's" models.

Jeff


----------



## paxxus (Nov 18, 2008)

Nevermind, luxlover answered.


----------



## luxlover (Nov 18, 2008)

paxxus said:


> Nevermind, luxlover answered.


Not long before you enable SOS on a hands-on basis, being that you are #5 on the 140Cn list.


----------



## paxxus (Nov 18, 2008)

luxlover said:


> Not long before you enable SOS on a hands-on basis, being that you are #5 on the 140Cn list.


Indeed  It'll be interesting to see how large the next batch of lights being shipped to the dealers is...


----------



## luxlover (Nov 18, 2008)

paxxus said:


> Indeed  It'll be interesting to see how large the next batch of lights being shipped to the dealers is...


Standing in line for anything, especially when there is no obligation to pay now or buy later, is a no brainer example of common sense. So why are there ONLY 25 people on Russtang's list?


----------



## luxlover (Nov 18, 2008)

Henry,
You still have me cracking up over your comment.....
 LuxLover,
You will not find any _gray rubber baby buggy bumpers_ in our tail caps, because we do not need them to control battery movement. And so you won't see any thread problems that are common to another design.

May I assume that the threads on the Prototypes are more robust than "the competition's" design, since the amount of force on the cell by the two spring/contact battery plate assemblies is greater?

Jeff


----------



## orcinus (Nov 18, 2008)

luxlover said:


> Standing in line for anything, especially when there is no obligation to pay now or buy later, is a no brainer example of common sense. So why are there ONLY 25 people on Russtang's list?



Because he didn't allow other people to fill up the empty slots left by the giver-uppers?


----------



## kromeke (Nov 18, 2008)

> May I assume that the threads on the Prototypes are more robust than "the competition's" design, since the amount of force on the cell by the two spring/contact battery plate assemblies is greater?



Threads on the Prototypes are 15/16- 24tpi which is a "*******" thread, meaning that it is a non-standard thread. Slightly coarser than the 15/16-32 UN thread that is on the Novatacs and old HDS EDC series.


----------



## HDS_Systems (Nov 18, 2008)

GottaWearShades,

Both strobes (emergency and tactical) and SOS are included. Look in the Customization Guide for instructions for accessing them. They are no longer in the Option Menu since they are now regular brightness levels that can be assigned to one of the brightness presets. All three signals are also mentioned on the product pages.

FredericoFreire,

4-40.

LuxLover,

As I have said many times, the threads on the prototypes are large and robust compared to the older designs. The total force from the double springs is small compared to the forces generated by the gray rubber baby buggy bumpers - the later generating roughly 20 pounds of force on a few small threads - hence the problems with the other design.

Henry.


----------



## turbodog (Nov 18, 2008)

HDS_Systems said:


> ...
> 
> The total force from the double springs is small compared to the forces generated by the gray rubber baby buggy bumpers ...
> Henry.



Just an FYI, but typically a single spring or double springs generate the same force for a given total compression.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooke's_law


----------



## paxxus (Nov 18, 2008)

turbodog said:


> Just an FYI, but typically a single spring or double springs generate the same force for a given total compression.
> 
> See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooke's_law


How can you conclude that!? Yes, the link explains the relation between compression and force, but I don't see how that can tell anything about the compression force of the "rubber baby buggy bumpers". I guess all Henry is saying is that the "rubber baby buggy bumpers" have a greater equivalent *spring constant* than what is healthy, in other words the "rubber baby buggy bumper" is equivalent to a very stiff spring.


----------



## turbodog (Nov 18, 2008)

paxxus said:


> How can you conclude that!? Yes, the link explains the relation between compression and force, but I don't see how that can tell anything about the compression force of the "rubber baby buggy bumpers". I guess all Henry is saying is that the "rubber baby buggy bumpers" have a greater equivalent *spring constant* than what is healthy, in other words the "rubber baby buggy bumper" is equivalent to a very stiff spring.



I've owned both and the rubber bumper is quite stiff. But, I posted my note to simply dispel the notion that dual springs would (normally) be twice as stiff as a single in this design.


----------



## luxlover (Nov 18, 2008)

orcinus said:


> Because he didn't allow other people to fill up the empty slots left by the giver-uppers?


Ante,
Now I remember. As time passed by, Russ probably saw that the lights were not going to be coming as "fast as furious" as he initially believed. So he shortened the 20 place lists to 15, and then to 10. Then the Oct 26 deadline passed.


----------



## gswitter (Nov 18, 2008)

Is the locator flash now using Level 1?

I enabled the locator, and I initially didn't realize the feature was even functioning. I'm in a room with fairly low light (late afternoon, indirect sunlight only), and the flashes are almost undetectable.


----------



## FredericoFreire (Nov 18, 2008)

We demand pictures, please!


----------



## luxlover (Nov 18, 2008)

FredericoFreire said:


> We demand pictures, please!


That's beautiful, Fred. Did you get your buddies to pose to make the picture? Very original. Maybe it will convince new Clicky owners to look for their cameras?

Jeff


----------



## FredericoFreire (Nov 18, 2008)

luxlover said:


> That's beautiful, Fred. Did you get your buddies to pose to make the picture? Very original. Maybe it will convince new Clicky owners to look for their cameras?
> 
> Jeff



That should convince the owners to post a picture. Unfortunately it is not my picture, it is for sure from a english spoken country, as you can see at the banner on the background. I just found it over the google images. :naughty:


----------



## bullfrog (Nov 18, 2008)

:laughing::laughing: 

+1,000,000



FredericoFreire said:


> We demand pictures, please!


----------



## luxlover (Nov 18, 2008)

FredericoFreire said:


> That should convince the owners to post a picture. Unfortunately it is not my picture, it is for sure from a english spoken country, as you can see at the banner on the background. I just found it over the google images. :naughty:


I see that, Fred. Do you Brazilians like McDonald's?


----------



## turbodog (Nov 18, 2008)

The strobe kicks butt, being about twice as bright as novatac strobe.

All you need is a couple of ra clickys set to strobe, a dark room, good tunes, a keg, and some tom collins and you've got yourself a party.


----------



## Optik49 (Nov 18, 2008)

OK If someone has photos but they do not know how to post them send me an e-mail and I will post them.


----------



## tricker (Nov 18, 2008)

If someone has the light but can't take photos just send the light to me and i will help you out


----------



## LLCoolBeans (Nov 18, 2008)

gswitter said:


> Is the locator flash now using Level 1?
> 
> I enabled the locator, and I initially didn't realize the feature was even functioning. I'm in a room with fairly low light (late afternoon, indirect sunlight only), and the flashes are almost undetectable.



Just got my Prototype today. I noticed the same thing with the locater flash, barely even detectable in low light. Not sure what my opinion on that is yet.


----------



## SaturnNyne (Nov 19, 2008)

gswitter said:


> I enabled the locator, and I initially didn't realize the feature was even functioning. I'm in a room with fairly low light (late afternoon, indirect sunlight only), and the flashes are almost undetectable.





LLCoolBeans said:


> I noticed the same thing with the locater flash, barely even detectable in low light. Not sure what my opinion on that is yet.


I know what my opinion is, this sounds like fantastic news! Remember, it's for finding the light in the dark, you don't need—or want!—much light. Of course it's a matter of preference. Some think the previous locators should have been brighter, but many, like me, found it unusably bright already.




turbodog said:


> The strobe kicks butt, being about twice as bright as novatac strobe.
> 
> All you need is a couple of ra clickys set to strobe, a dark room, good tunes, a keg, and some tom collins and you've got yourself a party.


Thanks for the report on the new burst-level rave mode!


----------



## paxxus (Nov 19, 2008)

The opinion on the locator flash intensity seems fairly evenly divided, some like it very, very low and some like it brighter.

I like it fairly bright because I don't feel that an extremely low locator flash is usable if you for example drop your light outdoors with a little ambient light. I really liked the NT locator flash for this reason.

The initial reports about the very low locator flash is bad news for me :mecry:, but for the "nightstand folks" I guess it's good news :shrug: 

Can't please everybody (unless the locator intensity was programmable).


----------



## Haz (Nov 19, 2008)

Exactly, my thoughts too, why is this light so mysterious that there are no pictures of it!


----------



## UnderTheWeepingMoon (Nov 19, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> The clips have been delayed but will be along when they're ready.
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2695453&postcount=329
> 
> Edit: \m/



Thanks SaturnNyne, that's great news! I now can't wait to buy one of these lights once their production ramps up .

I think you're the first person to see my user name for what it is :thumbsup:.


----------



## FredericoFreire (Nov 19, 2008)

luxlover said:


> I see that, Fred. Do you Brasilians like McDonald's?



I don't like that much, but many brazilians does. On sunday nights the line is pretty long wait, on Happy Mac Day and Childresn's day, man it's impossible to reach the cashier.


----------



## SaturnNyne (Nov 19, 2008)

UnderTheWeepingMoon said:


> Thanks SaturnNyne, that's great news! I now can't wait to buy one of these lights once their production ramps up .
> 
> I think you're the first person to see my user name for what it is :thumbsup:.


Glad to help, and to stir up another Clicky order.  I look forward to seeing you on my registry.

On the subject of your name, I noticed it long ago, always makes me smile. When I was deciding on the formatting for my registry, I used your name as my tester because it was the longest one I could think of off the top of my head. With eyes of fire, once unlit but now alive, this energy, sparkling, like a morning star... quite appropriate really. :thumbsup:


----------



## luxlover (Nov 19, 2008)

turbodog said:


> The strobe kicks butt, being about twice as bright as novatac strobe.
> 
> All you need is a couple of ra clickys set to strobe, a dark room, good tunes, a keg, and some tom collins and you've got yourself a party.


Turbo,
It sounds like you are having a ball. I second the motion, except that I don't drink beer. But I can shug down Tom Collins Mixers, straight up, with the best of them! 

Jeff
The KoolAid Kid


----------



## luxlover (Nov 19, 2008)

Optik49 said:


> OK If someone has photos but they do not know how to post them send me an e-mail and I will post them.


Good idea! Very helpful idea.


----------



## luxlover (Nov 19, 2008)

tricker said:


> If someone has the light but can't take photos just send the light to me and I will help you out.


GREAT IDEA! If tricker is busy, I volunteer to act in his behalf. It's the only  thing to do!

Jeff


----------



## luxlover (Nov 19, 2008)

FredericoFreire said:


> I don't like it that much. But many Brazilians do. On Sunday nights, the line is a pretty long wait. On Happy Mac Day and Childrens' Day, man it's impossible to reach the cashier.


You must like the traditional food of your country, to reject that type of fast food. It sure is tasty, but not very nutritious.

My advice to you is to save your fast food budget money for Henry's future lights. They are tasty and nutritionally balanced! :laughing:


----------



## gswitter (Nov 19, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> Remember, it's for finding the light in the dark, you don't need—or want!—much light. Of course it's a matter of preference. Some think the previous locators should have been brighter, but many, like me, found it unusably bright already.


My concern was that the flashes weren't going to be bright enough if I wasn't going to be looking directly at the light. The output of Level 1 is so low now, I literally did not notice the flashes initially in a semi-lit room. After looking closer and shielding the bezel somewhat, they were barely perceptible. I then took the light into a dark room, and while I no longer had trouble seeing the flashes, I could only see them looking directly down the bezel, and could see no bounce when the light was pointed at a wall, half an inch away. I didn't give my eyes time to adjust to the dark though.

I played with it more last night, and I'm fine with it. The flashes _are_ bright enough for dark-adjusted eyes, even when standing bezel down on a table.

I have quite a few lights with low, low output modes, and it's a feature that I use daily for navigating the house when the wife and kid are asleep. The only light I own that produces a lower output than Level 1 on my Prototype is the Titan. Level 1 is actually lower than I need/prefer for daily use. I use the lowest output levels when carrying my U60GT, 120P, 100-T or 85-Tr, but am still debating between Levels 3 and 4 for my preferred low, low on the 140-C.


----------



## Dead_Nuts (Nov 19, 2008)

Still no pictures!?! I don't care if it's a proto or production -- let's see some pics!!!!


----------



## gswitter (Nov 19, 2008)

I don't have a camera. turbodog posted some pics in post 55.


----------



## LLCoolBeans (Nov 19, 2008)

Dead_Nuts said:


> Still no pictures!?! I don't care if it's a proto or production -- let's see some pics!!!!



lol. Ok, I'll dust off the old digicam tonight and get you some proto-photos.


----------



## turbodog (Nov 19, 2008)

Dead_Nuts said:


> Still no pictures!?! I don't care if it's a proto or production -- let's see some pics!!!!



Yeah.... does nobody look back at the entire thread?

Pic have been there for days.


----------



## turbodog (Nov 19, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> ... I used your name as my tester because it was the longest one I could think of off the top of my head. ...:



That's about right. When I did the original EDC list, "arewethereyetdad" caused me some grief.


----------



## FredericoFreire (Nov 19, 2008)

turbodog said:


> Yeah.... does nobody look back at the entire thread?
> 
> Pic have been there for days.



*Dead_Nuts* is looking for any pics, Proto or Clicky.

The rest of us want Clicky pics, and Proto pics other than the ones you posted, another angles, engraved side (not the S/N)...


----------



## tebore (Nov 19, 2008)

Or at least pics of the Proto in action. Pics of an HDS flashlight on a table that's like pictures of the black bear... stuffed and mounted.


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## luxlover (Nov 19, 2008)

LLCoolBeans said:


> lol. Ok, I'll dust off the old digicam tonight and get you some proto-photos.


I'm not leaving my pc station until I see them. 

Please take shots that will demonstrate the differences between the Proto and "the competition's." May we have a shot that is aimed at the front end but slightly angled to prevent total reflection, a shot inside the battery case, a shot of the endcap removed and a shot inside the head? Since Henry stated that the retaining rings are longer than on "the competition", how about angled shots showing this enhanced feature?

Thank you Sir.
Jeff


----------



## LLCoolBeans (Nov 19, 2008)

luxlover said:


> I'm not leaving my pc station until I see them.
> 
> Please take shots that will demonstrate the differences between the Proto and "the competition's." May we have a shot that is aimed at the front end but slightly angled to prevent total reflection, a shot inside the battery case, a shot of the endcap removed and a shot inside the head? Since Henry stated that the retaining rings are longer than on "the competition", how about angled shots showing this enhanced feature?



Sure, you may want to take a bathroom break or two. It'll be a while as I won't get home until after 5:00PM and it's only 10:45AM here.


----------



## luxlover (Nov 19, 2008)

LLCoolBeans said:


> Sure, you may want to take a bathroom break or two. It'll be a while as I won't get home until after 5:00PM and it's only 10:45AM here.


I have a portable bathroom, affectionately termed "a glass jar." Your 5PM is my 8PM. I better deploy two glass jars! :devil:

Take your time.....but do it quickly! 

Jeff


----------



## turbodog (Nov 19, 2008)

Other than color and brightness I can't tell _any_ difference between the proto's beam pattern and novatac.

The rings are maybe 50% taller and _maybe_ a little thicker, but I doubt it on the thickness since the tube's end milling looks identical.

The battery tube is longer. The battery sits flush with the end of the tube.

Springs look exactly like the twisty.

???


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## LLCoolBeans (Nov 19, 2008)

luxlover said:


> I have a portable bathroom, affectionately termed "a glass jar." Your 5PM is my 8PM. I better deploy two glass jars! :devil:



Ewww :toilet:


----------



## luxlover (Nov 19, 2008)

LLCoolBeans said:


> Ewww :toilet:


It is not a porto-toilet, but rather a porto-latrine! 

Jeff


----------



## luxlover (Nov 19, 2008)

turbodog said:


> Other than color and brightness, I can't tell _any_ difference between the proto's beam pattern and a NovaTac's.
> 
> The rings are maybe 50% taller and _maybe_ a little thicker, but I doubt it on the thickness, since the tube's end milling looks identical.
> 
> ...


So far, so good! Did you happen to notice if the battery tube's lip was lengthened to match the increase in length of the head's retaining ring? If not, the space between the head and tube will be greater than on an NT light. As long as the existing lip provides isolation between the coilspring and the ring, the lip can remain the same length as before.

Jeff


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## gottawearshades (Nov 19, 2008)

I've only had time to stalk some white walls and ceilings with my prototype.

The beam is pretty much identical to my NT, which is a very good ballanced beam.

My proto has better tint, though. I would describe it as neutral white, maybe a little warm. On Primary there's a slight yellow tinge to the soft transition around the hotspot. On High it seems just neutral white.

The "Burst" mode works quite nicely. I've developed the habit of only using High on momentary with my NovaTac, and ten seconds is more than I generally need to scan something. A very good idea, and much better than the 120P's 28 minutes on High.

Two other observations: the spring doesn't fall out when you change the battery (yay!) and the NovaTac clip or the Inox lanyard ring fit like a glove.

On the whole, I'd say this is what the NovaTac should have been. At the moment, I'm thinking of my "Clicky Classic" as a collectors' piece, and I'm waiting for my actual Clicky to be my new traveling companion.


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## LLCoolBeans (Nov 19, 2008)

gottawearshades said:


> I've only had time to stalk some white walls and ceilings with my prototype.
> 
> The beam is pretty much identical to my NT, which is a very good ballanced beam.
> 
> ...



I just got my Proto yesterday, and I completely agree with and second everything you just said.

Just one more thing to note...
The emitter on the proto (clicky classic) is perfectly centered in the reflector.


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## Dead_Nuts (Nov 19, 2008)

turbodog said:


> Yeah.... does nobody look back at the entire thread?
> 
> Pic have been there for days.



Yes, I have been posting since Part 1 -- at least every couple of days or so. No unread posts here. I know there were some pics of the proto. I just want more!


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## turbodog (Nov 19, 2008)

EDC60 Novatac Twisty Ra140C


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## turbodog (Nov 19, 2008)

Better?


----------



## parnass (Nov 19, 2008)

turbodog said:


> Better?


Wow! Nice photos, turbodog. Thanks! :thumbsup:


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## MikeG1P315 (Nov 19, 2008)

Thanks for the pics!

I want a Ra Clicky prototype, aka 'Classic Mega Super Duper Amazing EDC Ultimate' 140C! 

Oh well... I guess I'll 'settle' for a regular Clicky next year, since the protos will be all gone before I can afford one.


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## matrixshaman (Nov 19, 2008)

turbodog - Thanks! nice pics. I'm glad to see it's not as much longer than the HDS as I thought it might be. How's the beam? Can you confirm the LED is a Seoul P4? And one more little question - do you know what the little yellow or light green looking wire is that's peeking out of a hole here ? :thinking:


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## SaturnNyne (Nov 19, 2008)

gswitter said:


> I don't have a camera.


No camera, that's unfortunate... How about MSPaint then?




LLCoolBeans said:


> lol. Ok, I'll dust off the old digicam tonight and get you some proto-photos.



Yay CoolBeans, you're quite the tireless servant to the Henry-light community this week.




turbodog said:


> That's about right. When I did the original EDC list, "arewethereyetdad" caused me some grief.


By the powers, Turbo, I'd forgotten that you were the original EDC list compiler. That explains why I did a double take when I first realized Jeff was managing it. I'll get to work adding you to my historical tip-of-the-hat section on the registry; my apologies for the oversight.

Also, great photos, especially the one of the HDS lights all together. Really cool to see how small the size differences actually are. The prototype is basically the same length as the Twisty, which I find a perfect fit to the hand. Can you explain the yellow on the tapped NT though?


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## luxlover (Nov 19, 2008)

turbodog said:


> Better?


Couldn't be better! You nailed every possible feature detail in your pictures. Bravo! Have you ever thought of working for Playboy or Penthouse magazines?

Jeff


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## HDS_Systems (Nov 19, 2008)

MatrixShaman,

Can you say prototype? Sure you can. 

The current calibration interface requires one more wire than was provided with the old electronic interface. The wire started out life much longer and was trimmed after the calibration process was completed. Luckily, the hole was large enough for the needle to fit with the wire in place so we could pot the electronics prior to calibration. The sequence of steps is not critical but the flow is nicer this way.

Henry.


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## HoopleHead (Nov 19, 2008)

sweet. although now im thinking i need to rebuy a Twisty again as well.


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## gswitter (Nov 20, 2008)

HDS_Systems said:


> The current calibration interface requires one more wire than was provided with the old electronic interface. The wire started out life much longer and was trimmed after the calibration process was completed.


 It's an outie.


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## turbodog (Nov 20, 2008)

gswitter said:


> It's an outie.



hahahahahaha


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## turbodog (Nov 20, 2008)

matrixshaman said:


> turbodog - Thanks! nice pics. I'm glad to see it's not as much longer than the HDS as I thought it might be. How's the beam? Can you confirm the LED is a Seoul P4? And one more little question - do you know what the little yellow or light green looking wire is that's peeking out of a hole here ? :thinking:




Beam seems exactly same as novatac as far as I can tell. Reflector seems the same also.

Sorry. Don't know what seoul looks like.

Yellow is gaffers tape. When I drilled and tapped the novatac my bit broke through into the light's interior. The tape ensures waterproofness. If you've never handled any it's sort of rubbery.


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## turbodog (Nov 20, 2008)

luxlover said:


> Couldn't be better! You nailed every possible feature detail in your pictures. Bravo! Have you ever thought of working for Playboy or Penthouse magazines?
> 
> Jeff



I think only penthouse is known for close-up detail like that.


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## luxlover (Nov 20, 2008)

turbodog said:


> I think only Penthouse is known for close-up detail like that.


You are right. By the way, did you use an airbrush to "touch-up" the light for any of your shots? :naughty:


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## grillmasterp (Nov 20, 2008)

Getting antsy......
Package Progress
Location Date Local Time Description
HOUSTON,
TX, US 11/20/2008 2:59 A.M. OUT FOR DELIVERY
11/20/2008 12:01 A.M. ARRIVAL SCAN


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## orcinus (Nov 20, 2008)

HDS_Systems said:


> The current calibration interface requires one more wire than was provided with the old electronic interface. The wire started out life much longer and was trimmed after the calibration process was completed.



Don't believe him!
It's a conspiracy! The wire is actually a direct feed from the cold-fusion module hidden inside!


----------



## matrixshaman (Nov 20, 2008)

grillmasterp said:


> Getting antsy......
> Package Progress
> Location Date Local Time Description
> HOUSTON,
> ...



lucky guy!


----------



## matrixshaman (Nov 20, 2008)

HDS_Systems said:


> MatrixShaman,
> 
> Can you say prototype? Sure you can.
> 
> ...



P-R-O-T-O-T-Y-P-E Portotype - errr Protopipe - ummm - clearing throat - Prototype. There - I got it  
I didn't realize that was a prototype. They look great and I'm now only waiting to see the difference in what the beams look like on the Narrow versus wide. I'd buy one right now if I could see some good beamshots of both. I'm leaning toward the narrow at this point.


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## luxlover (Nov 20, 2008)

matrixshaman said:


> P-R-O-T-O-T-Y-P-E Portotype - errr Protopipe - ummm - clearing throat - Prototype. There - I got it
> I didn't realize that was a prototype. They look great and I'm now only waiting to see the difference in what the beams look like on the Narrow versus wide. I'd buy one right now if I could see some good beamshots of both. I'm leaning toward the narrow at this point.


Henry was wrong about you! You can say "prototype" just fine. It just takes a very loooong time to get the signal from your eyeballs to your brain to your mouth! :nana: There is no problem too big for the Matrix!


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## luxlover (Nov 20, 2008)

grillmasterp said:


> Getting antsy......
> Package Progress
> Location Date Local Time Description
> HOUSTON,
> ...


I am getting antsy just seeing how you are getting antsy! It must be contagious!

Need I remind you that we would appreciate some sort of micro-review from you later today, as a form of sharing your overwhelming joy? If you are getting a production Clicky, then pictures would be most highly appreciated since the only evidence of the light's existence is on Henry's website. But if you are getting a Prototype, then turbodog has pictorially represented it beautifully. 

Jeff


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## grillmasterp (Nov 20, 2008)

luxlover said:


> I am getting antsy just seeing how you are getting antsy! It must be contagious!
> 
> Need I remind you that we would appreciate some sort of micro-review from you later today, as a form of sharing your overwhelming joy? If you are getting a production Clicky, then pictures would be most highly appreciated since the only evidence of the light's existence is on Henry's website.



No need to remind me  
BTW, I pre-ordered the Clicky, not the Prototype :twothumbs


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## luxlover (Nov 20, 2008)

grillmasterp said:


> No need to remind me.
> BTW, I pre-ordered the Clicky, not the Prototype. :twothumbs


You may be the first guy to showcase the first production Clicky while it is resting lovingly in your hand! Today may very well be _the greatest day in flashlight history!_ You have a very responsible mission ahead of you! :twothumbs:twothumbs

Make sure that no stray dogs are near your place, so that there is no chance that one will take a bite out of your delivery guy's leg and delay the delivery.


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## grillmasterp (Nov 20, 2008)

Type: Package 
Status: Delivered 
Delivered On: 11/20/2008 1:34 P.M.


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## grillmasterp (Nov 20, 2008)

< me thinks my 1.5 yr old daughter was eating cheetos or goldfish crackers before playing with the Novatac


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## LLCoolBeans (Nov 20, 2008)

grillmasterp,

Can you remove the battery tube from the head and take a photo of how the tail cap and flashlight body make the negative electrical connection with the head? How is that being done?


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## FredericoFreire (Nov 20, 2008)

Hallelujah!!! Finally pics !


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## luxlover (Nov 20, 2008)

grillmasterp said:


> Type: Package
> Status: Delivered
> Delivered On: 11/20/2008 1:34 P.M.


Right! It's easy for YOU to be whistling Dixie! You have your light in hand! 

Seriously, you took some great shots of the Clicky, and you did it STAT. She sure is a tall one, but still manageable in a pocket or on a belt.

Boo! LLCoolBeans beat me to it with a request for some internal shots. Thank you Sir. You just made "Clicky History!" You are NUMERO UNO!

Jeff

P.S.: I love the smell of cheesy crackers on my HDS lights! :naughty:


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## luxlover (Nov 20, 2008)

FredericoFreire said:


> Hallelujah!!! Finally pics !


Amen, Fred.


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## grillmasterp (Nov 20, 2008)

Initial impression.... 
-the additional length makes the light fit very well in my palm
-lowest setting is lower than Novatac EDC 120P
-button is not flush.....wobbles when doing tailstand

1st item of agenda is to see if the original HDS EDC clips will fit- 
I'm Not sure if the spacing between the pre-tapped holes is the same.


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## paxxus (Nov 20, 2008)

LLCoolBeans said:


> grillmasterp,
> 
> Can you remove the battery tube from the head and take a photo of how the tail cap and flashlight body make the negative electrical connection with the head? How is that being done?


+1


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## zenas (Nov 20, 2008)

grillmasterp said:


> -button is not flush.....wobbles when doing tailstand



Hmpf, didn't want to have it that way - but take what you can get - or not? :mecry:


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## luxlover (Nov 20, 2008)

zenas said:


> Hmpf, didn't want to have it that way - but take what you can get - or not? :mecry:


Zenas,
Where did you come from? Haven't seen you here before. Welcome to the best thread on CPF, pictorially honoring the very first production Clicky 140C on CPF.


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## Enzo Morocioli (Nov 20, 2008)

grillmasterp said:


> Initial impression....
> 
> -button is not flush.....wobbles when doing tailstand



Think you could set it on a table and get a picture that captures how the wobble looks? Is it tilted unstably to one side, or it is very slight?


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## seery (Nov 20, 2008)

grillmasterp said:


> -button is not flush.....wobbles when doing tailstand




On a more positive note, congrats and thanks on being the first to post pics.


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## grillmasterp (Nov 20, 2008)

LLCoolBeans said:


> grillmasterp,
> 
> Can you remove the battery tube from the head and take a photo of how the tail cap and flashlight body make the negative electrical connection with the head? How is that being done?


----------



## zenas (Nov 20, 2008)

luxlover said:


> Zenas,
> Where did you come from? Haven't seen you here before. Welcome to the best thread on CPF, pictorially honoring the very first production Clicky 140C on CPF.


Luxlover, thanks for your welcome  - but i was posting before. 
I'm a 22 year old student from germany and was saving my money over several months to get enough to own a wonderful Ra Clicky. I was hoping for the 170 Cgt model, but now I'm just going to take the 140 Cgt. And naturally I was hoping for a stable tailstand


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## grillmasterp (Nov 20, 2008)

zenas said:


> naturally I was hoping for a stable tailstand



I expected this to be resolved with the last revision of the HDS EDC knurled tailcaps


----------



## luxlover (Nov 20, 2008)

grillmasterp said:


>


Ahhh, switch signal transferred via a wire running from the endcap along a groove cut in the battery tube's wall, then protruding above the tube end, finally making contact with the outer concentric ring in the light module! Nice operation. How springy is the spring when you press on it?

Perhaps we may have a shot of the bottom of the battery tube, where the wire attaches to the endcap? Thank you.


----------



## grillmasterp (Nov 20, 2008)

Enzo Morocioli said:


> Think you could set it on a table and get a picture that captures how the wobble looks? Is it tilted unstably to one side, or it is very slight?




The wobble is slight - I suspect will vary between light and may diminish over usage.

If the battery tube/switch are separated from the head, it will tailstand on its own. On the same note, if you unscrew the battery tube about 1 turn , the tailstand will disappear. 

*DISCLAIMER*
*I'm apprehensive about posting pics of the wobble since they may appear exaggerated camera angle. So the following pics may be misleading*


----------



## grinsekatz (Nov 20, 2008)

Tailstand would be nice, indeed.
On the other side I would by the Clicky even though.
Darn, I can not longer resist... 

Alex


----------



## grillmasterp (Nov 20, 2008)

luxlover said:


> Perhaps we may have a shot of the bottom of the battery tube, where the wire attaches to the endcap? Thank you.



From the user guide:

Caution: do not try unscrewing or removing the switch cap. Doing so may damage your flashlight


----------



## Enzo Morocioli (Nov 20, 2008)

Ah.. The wobble isn't that bad at all!
And I think you're right G-master, it'll probably diminish over time and use.


----------



## luxlover (Nov 20, 2008)

grillmasterp said:


> The wobble is slight - I suspect will vary between light and may diminish over usage.
> 
> If the battery tube/switch are separated from the head, it will tailstand on its own. On the same note, if you unscrew the battery tube about 1 turn , the tailstand will disappear.
> 
> ...


Looks like the Italian version of the Clicky....."Leaning Tower of Pisa."  

By your description, the rubber button seems to be retaining air when the parts are mated together tightly, but is releasing the air when they are either slightly loosened or fully separated. Hmmm, why would this still be happening? Try this.....If you hold in the button all the way while you are fully mating both parts and place it on a table, does the light tailstand without a wobble?

In post #188 fourth picture down, the rubber button looks like it is bulging outward and is not level with the endcap. That button is retaining air.

Jeff


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## m16a (Nov 20, 2008)

Those those who have their clickies *cough cough* grillmaster *cough cough* you might want to check out this lovely link..

 The OFFICIAL Ra Clicky serial number registry

Thanks for taking on the responsibility Saturn! :thumbsup:

On a more fan based note, excellent pictures grillmaster. It is a beautiful light, well made, and I cannot WAIT to get mine!!

Can we get some feedback on the operation?? I'd love to hear it! :thumbsup:


----------



## paxxus (Nov 20, 2008)

Looks like a solid design for the switch signal, much better than the spring used in the HDS/NT lights. Only slight concern one could have is that the isolating anodize might eventually be rubbed off thus creating a false switch contact. But anodize is very hard anyway.


----------



## luxlover (Nov 20, 2008)

m16a said:


> Those those who have their clickies *cough cough* grillmaster *cough cough* you might want to check out this lovely link..
> 
> The OFFICIAL Ra Clicky serial number registry
> 
> Thanks for taking on the responsibility Saturn! :thumbsup:


Good man, m16a. I didn't want to clutter grillmaster's head with paperwork, since he was busy sharing his light with us and pondering the wobble.

Jeff


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## grinsekatz (Nov 20, 2008)

luxlover said:


> Looks like the Italian version of the Clicky....."Leaning Tower of Pisa."
> 
> By your description, the rubber button seems to be retaining air when the parts are mated together tightly, but is releasing the air when they are either slightly loosened or fully separated. Hmmm, why would this still be happening? Try this.....If you hold in the button all the way while you are fully mating both parts and place it on a table, does the light tailstand without a wobble?
> 
> ...


 
That could work.
I did the same with a Fenix and it worked quite fine.

BTW: a big THANK YOU to grillmasterp for all this information. :thumbsup:

Alex


----------



## luxlover (Nov 20, 2008)

zenas said:


> Luxlover, thanks for your welcome.  - but I was posting before.
> 
> I'm a 22 year old student from Germany and was saving my money over several months to get enough to own a wonderful Ra Clicky. I was hoping for the 170Cgt model, but now I'm just going to take the 140Cgt. Naturally I was hoping for a stable tailstand.


Guten abend, student! Are you ready to lay down those euros for a Clicky? The tailstand wobble will be worked out by Henry, if he finds that it is occuring across the board. It might be isolated to just a few lights. Time will tell.

Jeff


----------



## grillmasterp (Nov 20, 2008)

luxlover said:


> By your description, the rubber button seems to be retaining air when the parts are mated together tightly, but is releasing the air when they are either slightly loosened or fully separated. Hmmm, why would this still be happening? Try this.....If you hold in the button all the way while you are fully mating both parts and place it on a table, does the light tailstand without a wobble?
> 
> In post #188 fourth picture down, the rubber button looks like it is bulging outward and is not level with the endcap. That button is retaining air.
> 
> Jeff



The wobble is similar to some of my orig HDS EDC's.
I suspect its the switch or spring in the tail switch being pushed down by the battery. Removing the battery allows for a stable tailstand.


----------



## m16a (Nov 20, 2008)

grillmasterp said:


> The wobble is similar to some of my orig HDS EDC's.
> I suspect its the switch or spring in the tail switch being pushed down by the battery. Removing the battery allows for a stable tailstand.



If that is the case, I wonder if the wobble could be solved by shortening the battery spring. But then would that compromise the battery being held in place during times it is being shocked?


----------



## zenas (Nov 20, 2008)

luxlover said:


> Guten abend, student! Are you ready to lay down those euros for a Clicky? The tailstand wobble will be worked out by Henry, if he finds that it is occuring across the board. It might be isolated to just a few lights. Time will tell.
> 
> Jeff



I'm ready Jeff! Believe me! I was following this thread everytime and was really "infected" by your enthusiasm. But right now I still have to wait for my dealer to receive the first production clickys. 

But back to the facts:
The clicky looks solid (nice photos grillmasterp :twothumbs), seems to have a great size and nice bezel. But it would be nice to see a really close up of the "connecting wire", just to make sure it is as solid as the clicky is. I'm sure Henry has chosen his design and the specifications on his knowledge (which seems to be lengendary), but little things like wires always strike me... 
AAAAAAAHHHHHH, everything I say means nothing as long as my Clicky is not at home  So, please just ignore me and my complaints all you Clicky lovers!!!


Matze


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## gottawearshades (Nov 20, 2008)

Thanks for the pics.

I don't understand the bulge. My Clicky proto. tailstands perfectly.

I just looked back on the Website, and I couldn't find a promise of tailstanding. If there were such a promise made, I'd call this a quality control issue.


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## zenas (Nov 20, 2008)

The Clicky was supposed to tail stand; look http://www.ralights.com/?id=ClickyDetails

"14. The light will tail stand. This allows the flashlight to be placed tail down on any flat surface to bounce light off the ceiling."

But the description is still right, it does tail stand


----------



## gottawearshades (Nov 20, 2008)

Well, then, I'd say it's a quality control issue. Perhaps one light is too small a data set, however?



zenas said:


> The Clicky was supposed to tail stand; look http://www.ralights.com/?id=ClickyDetails
> 
> "14. The light will tail stand. This allows the flashlight to be placed tail down on any flat surface to bounce light off the ceiling."
> 
> But the description is still right, it does tail stand


----------



## luxlover (Nov 20, 2008)

grillmasterp said:


> The wobble is similar to some of my orig. HDS EDC's.
> I suspect it's the switch or spring in the tail switch being pushed down by the battery. Removing the battery allows for a stable tailstand.


If the Clicky switch is constructed like the one on the EDC and NovaTac lights, the spring tension will have no bearing on the endcap, since the spring is part of a pretty stiff pc board, upon which a spring steel part on the other side of the board makes contact with it. That is what makes the "click" when you press the button. Therefore, I don't believe that the pc board is flexing at all. The rubber boot sits upon the inside of the endcap, on an internally machined shelf.

All that being said, I still think that air is being trapped within the light when it is being closed, making the boot bulge outward. When the battery case is by itself on a table, the pressure is relieved, the boot returns to it's natural flat state and there is no wobble.

Henry, please come to our rescue since this seems to be an unexpected/undesirable character trait of the Clicky!

Jeff


----------



## paxxus (Nov 20, 2008)

grillmasterp said:


> The wobble is similar to some of my orig HDS EDC's.
> I suspect its the switch or spring in the tail switch being pushed down by the battery. Removing the battery allows for a stable tailstand.


I don't think that's the case - it would be worrying if it was. As others have speculated I think it's simply trapped air. The reason why removing the battery affects this is because the battery itself displaces a large portion of the air - when the battery is there, adding a small portion of trapped air has a much larger effect on the overall air pressure inside the tube as compared to when the battery isn't there. I wouldn't really worry about this.


----------



## orcinus (Nov 20, 2008)

Has anyone simply tried keeping the boot pushed-in while screwing the Clicky shut?


----------



## Not So Bright (Nov 20, 2008)

I solved the tail-stand wobble.
Warmed up the Clicky, install battery, let it cool down. Tail-stands perfect.


----------



## orcinus (Nov 20, 2008)

Still not getting why keeping the boot pushed in _while_ installing the battery wouldn't work... Isn't that the simplest solution there is?


----------



## luxlover (Nov 20, 2008)

Not So Bright said:


> I solved the tail-stand wobble.
> Warmed up the Clicky, install battery, let it cool down. Tail-stands perfect.


Good experiment in thermodynamics and Boyle's Law. But what happens when the light is at room temperature, you open it up and then close it again?

Two pms sent. 

Jeff


----------



## m16a (Nov 20, 2008)

Wobbles aside, some happy personal news.

I have an official  for my Ra Clicky 140C at unique titanium


----------



## luxlover (Nov 20, 2008)

Me too!

I have an official  for my Ra Clicky 140C at Unique Titanium.


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## grateful1 (Nov 20, 2008)

The other clip will not work - Henry stated that earlier(I'll double check).
Very nice photo's!

I was waiting on the 170cgt but was downgraded. 
We'll see how long it takes to get out.


----------



## grillmasterp (Nov 20, 2008)

orcinus said:


> Has anyone simply tried keeping the boot pushed-in while screwing the Clicky shut?



Yup. One of the 1st things I tried - still wobbles.





paxxus said:


> As others have speculated I think it's simply trapped air.



After playing with it a bit longer- this looks like the case.
I can see the boot bulge ever so slightly when screwing an empty battery tube to the head.


----------



## matrixshaman (Nov 20, 2008)

grillmasterp said:


> Initial impression....
> -the additional length makes the light fit very well in my palm
> -lowest setting is lower than Novatac EDC 120P
> -button is not flush.....wobbles when doing tailstand
> ...



Henry answered that somewhere recently - he said the pre-tapped holes are not the same as the HDS clips. If I only had my shop set up like I did a couple years ago I'd try making Titanium clips again for these. I made the first ones for the HDS with a bezel up/down version after offering the design to Henry in case he wanted to produce them. He passed on it so I made a few but with some difficulty. I had to stop as I was selling my house and moving. My shops on hold now until sometime next year. In the meantime another member has taken essentially the same design and has produced them so he may be making some for the Ra Clicky.


----------



## grillmasterp (Nov 20, 2008)

Here is one more pic


----------



## matrixshaman (Nov 20, 2008)

luxlover said:


> Henry was wrong about you! You can say "prototype" just fine. It just takes a very loooong time to get the signal from your eyeballs to your brain to your mouth! :nana: There is no problem too big for the Matrix!


----------



## Enzo Morocioli (Nov 20, 2008)

Hey Grillmasterp....

How do your eyes respond to 100lm from 140lm when the 10 seconds of burst is up? Does it seem like a significant drop, or is it somewhat imperceptible?

Thanks so much for fielding our questions.. You've turned into the unofficial Ra Clicky representative. :twothumbs


----------



## Not So Bright (Nov 20, 2008)

Enzo,

The drop is barely noticable. It's one level down. If you have a NT, you know what I mean.


----------



## grillmasterp (Nov 20, 2008)

Enzo Morocioli said:


> Hey Grillmasterp....
> 
> How do your eyes respond to 100lm from 140lm when the 10 seconds of burst is up? Does it seem like a significant drop, or is it somewhat imperceptible?



slightly noticeable......you have to watch for the drop otherwise you'll miss it


----------



## Enzo Morocioli (Nov 20, 2008)

Good.. so it really is visually consistent...it doesn't leave you feeling blind when it drops down..


----------



## Kid9P (Nov 20, 2008)

grillmasterp said:


>


 

*Seems like alot of bare spots on the knurling. Are those spots missing **anno ??*


----------



## grillmasterp (Nov 20, 2008)

Kid9P said:


> *Seems like alot of bare spots on the knurling. Are those spots missing **anno ??*



yes There are quite a few bare spots.
The anodizing on my twisty is a little better.

Upon re-inspecting my older lights (EDC 42, 60 etc...), they also have bare some spots which I've never noticed until now. The pewter/olive does a better job of hiding missing anodizing than the black.


----------



## Kid9P (Nov 20, 2008)

Hmmm, hope it gets better down the road. Maybe because these were part of the first batch??

My Black Novatac 120P has a perfect anno job....go figure :shrug:


----------



## FredericoFreire (Nov 21, 2008)

grillmasterp said:


> Here is one more pic



Man, that thing is loooong


----------



## CPEng (Nov 21, 2008)

orcinus said:


> Still not getting why keeping the boot pushed in _while_ installing the battery wouldn't work... Isn't that the simplest solution there is?



Must be because the small displacement of air from the switch is not equal the displacement of the tube screwing together after the o-ring seals would be my explanation.

Hmm assembling it hot is a good idea as long as it doesn't heat up too much when using it. In other words it stays a bit under the assembly temperature when you tailstand it.

~CPEng


----------



## paxxus (Nov 21, 2008)

I guess the bulge thing happens because the tail switch PCB isn't air tight from one side to the other. Shouldn't be too big a problem to fix.


----------



## Kamakazikev24 (Nov 21, 2008)

will there be a longer battery tube for this so it could take 2 batterys or will that be to much voltage for the head?
I keep looking at this and my EX10 is slowly moving towards Ebay.......
This is one nice light, just a hassle buying in the UK though!


----------



## Haz (Nov 21, 2008)

the recess in the tailcap needs to be made just a tad deeper for the switch not to wobble when tail standing


----------



## antiplex (Nov 21, 2008)

Kamakazikev24 said:


> will there be a longer battery tube for this so it could take 2 batterys or will that be to much voltage for the head? ...



as stated on http://www.ralights.com/?id=ClickyDetails the input voltage can be up to 4.5V but since cr123a cells usually have an output of 3.2 - 3.6V there is no way to line up two cr123a cells in a longer tube since it would exceed the allowed input voltage.

i was planning to get a twisty as soon as the now and then announced 2xAA battery-tube got available but this hasn't happened as far as i know. in the meanwhile the clicky has hit the market and since this light seems even more like what i dream of, i'm very hoping that a 2xAA tube will be ready soon for the clicky.

i sorta regularly asked about the 2xAA tube and found out that it will come but unsure when both for the clicky and the twisty. note that tubes for each model are different and not interchangeable.

anybody got further status about 2xAA tubes, especially for the clicky?

EDIT: oh, i forgot to mention there is a 17670 (168S) extended ion battery tube available for the twisty and i believe this is probably coming for the clicky as well. as far as i know 17670 batteries have about 5/3 to double capacity of cr123as but since i'm not interested in those i don't know for sure.


----------



## luxlover (Nov 21, 2008)

grillmasterp said:


> Here is one more pic


That's a nice family...I mean litter of Henry lights. The EDC jobby with the accessory case on the left is probably the easiest one to handle and keep from slipping away. They all look great, grillmaster.


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## Dead_Nuts (Nov 21, 2008)

I have only one question at the moment: *Where's mine!?!*


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## luxlover (Nov 21, 2008)

Would one of you fine souls who has received his/her production Clicky, please take a picture of the inside of the battery tube, showing the endpoint of the wire we see protruding out the top? How about a close-up shot of the light module, with the camera slightly angled to show all contact points? An angled shot of the front end, to show the level of orange peel on the reflector, would also be informative.

Jeff


----------



## grinsekatz (Nov 21, 2008)

Stupid question: does anyone know what this little thing in the head is? Looks like a hole? 

Alex


----------



## alex in germany (Nov 21, 2008)

grinsekatz said:


> Stupid question: does anyone know what this little thing in the head is? Looks like a hole?
> 
> Alex




I would guess it´s one of two holes for the clip screws ?


Alex


----------



## grinsekatz (Nov 21, 2008)

Oh yes, that would make sense of course. 

Thanks,

Alex


----------



## Kamakazikev24 (Nov 21, 2008)

I need to know if there is a way to attach a lanyard?
Thanks.


----------



## Kid9P (Nov 21, 2008)

Kamakazikev24 said:


> I need to know if there is a way to attach a lanyard?
> Thanks.


 
Until the clip arrives, you can attach a lanyard using a zip tie as I have
done on this Novatac.


----------



## artec540 (Nov 21, 2008)

grinsekatz said:


> Tailstand would be nice, indeed.
> On the other side I would by the Clicky even though.
> Darn, I can not longer resist...
> 
> Alex



I hope your yielding to temptation and ordering does you some good. Mine has been on order for months and I have yet to see anything. All this talk from people who already have theirs is making me seriously envious!


----------



## cave dave (Nov 21, 2008)

Kid9P said:


> Until the clip arrives, you can attach a lanyard using a zip tie as I have
> done on this Novatac.



Ziptie? :shakehead 
Kid, familiarize yourself with the constrictor knot. It's actually super easy to tie on a closed loop as well but I really can't explain how.

*Edit:* Found an animated instruction:


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## Kid9P (Nov 21, 2008)

cave dave said:


> Ziptie? :shakehead
> Kid, familiarize yourself with the constrictor knot. It's actually super easy to tie on a closed loop as well but I really can't explain how.


 

LOL Dave,

This is the result of me skipping the Boy Scouts .....

Thanks for the link


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## cave dave (Nov 21, 2008)

Kid9P said:


> LOL Dave,
> 
> This is the result of me skipping the Boy Scouts .....
> 
> Thanks for the link



Well at least you didn't use duct tape. See my added link above for an animated knot tying website.


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## Kid9P (Nov 21, 2008)

In my defense, the zip tie Glows in the dark!:twothumbs


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## turbodog (Nov 22, 2008)

I've updated my runtime measurements to include the twisty and cclicky proto. 

See: http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?p=1157361#post1157361

Since the same battery was used for all tests there should be some comparative validity.


----------



## Kamakazikev24 (Nov 22, 2008)

Kid9P said:


> In my defense, the zip tie Glows in the dark!:twothumbs




LOL!


----------



## gottawearshades (Nov 22, 2008)

OK, so started customizing my Clicky Classic.

Successfully turned on Customization (took several tries to do this but got there eventually), turned on the locater flash, and used forced setting to make it tun on at Minimum. 

But here's the weird thing: Now it comes on at Low, but a double-cleck takes me to Secondary, not Primary. Is this how it's supposed to work? Or did I do something else wrong?

My NovaTac that I made start on Low goes first to Primary with a double-click, and the second double-click goes Secondary.

If I want that to happen on my Clicky, do I need reset my Primary to be brighter than secondary, and vice versa? Or what?


----------



## StandardBattery (Nov 22, 2008)

gottawearshades said:


> OK, so started customizing my Clicky Classic. ...
> But here's the weird thing: Now it comes on at Low, but a double-cleck takes me to Secondary, not Primary. Is this how it's supposed to work? Or did I do something else wrong?
> 
> My NovaTac that I made start on Low goes first to Primary with a double-click, and the second double-click goes Secondary.
> ...


Oh Oh... I'm not liking the sounds of that. Could it be it went to the last one it was on when you turned it off?


----------



## LLCoolBeans (Nov 22, 2008)

gottawearshades said:


> But here's the weird thing: Now it comes on at Low, but a double-cleck takes me to Secondary, not Primary. Is this how it's supposed to work? Or did I do something else wrong?



You are confusing me. With Force Setting enabled, light always turns on to Primary. So, if you set your Primary setting to be low, it's still Primary you just set Primary to be low. And yes double clicking from Primary takes you to Secondary, that's the same as the NT.

Not sure I understand what the problem is?

Do you have Force Setting enabled or disabled?


----------



## StandardBattery (Nov 22, 2008)

LLCoolBeans said:


> You are confusing me. With Force Setting enabled, light always turns on to Primary. ...


No with Forced Setting it turns on to whatever setting you told it to, the level you 'Forced on'. With no Forced Setting, it always starts on Primary.


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## LLCoolBeans (Nov 22, 2008)

StandardBattery said:


> No with Forced Setting it turns on to whatever setting you told it to, the level you 'Forced on'. With no Forced Setting, it always starts on Primary.



I stand corrected. I just re-read the manual, and you are absolutely right.

It's just forced to Primary by default. I didn't realize you could change it.

My bad.


----------



## gottawearshades (Nov 22, 2008)

No, I don't think so. 

In any case, it's a minor issue. I just don't see why this change was made from the NT firmware. And I don't see the point of my now having to readjust two of the brightness levels when I just basically want to return them to the default.

(BTW, thinking about it, I like the idea that Henry added a feature to turn ramping and the option menu on and off, to simplify actual use in the field.) 



StandardBattery said:


> Oh Oh... I'm not liking the sounds of that. Could it be it went to the last one it was on when you turned it off?


----------



## LLCoolBeans (Nov 22, 2008)

gottawearshades said:


> (BTW, thinking about it, I like the idea that Henry added a feature to turn ramping and the option menu on and off, to simplify actual use in the field.)



Yes, but that existed on the version 1.2 firmware of the NovaTac EDCs. Though, I agree, 20 clicks is much better than 250 to enter the options menu.


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## StandardBattery (Nov 22, 2008)

It would sort of mess up my current programming, as for daylight EDC I like no forced, and for nightstand I like forced low. of course one would not want to reprogram other levels just because they are using forced. It's not clean, but I have to think about it in real usage, because there are also times when you want low or high... with the Click-Press options though you don't really need the standard cycling of the levels to be altered for different situations. In fact that is the nice thing about the UI it is always deterministic. _I'm one that loathes last-mode-memory when it is set by only being on the level for 1 or 2 seconds. If it's automatic it's useless._ So I love the NT/HDS interface since it's a consistent interface not some stupid timer thinking it can predict my next move.

Like you I see NO reason for the change, it could be a bug. I wonder what it does if the other levels are forced.

Thanks for the testing.


----------



## SolarFlare (Nov 22, 2008)

Ignore


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## Russki (Nov 22, 2008)

Thanks for great tests.
Both Ra lights do not seem to be great performers.
My, R2 modded, B42XR still "the best" from HDS series in runtime and brightness. 



turbodog said:


> I've updated my runtime measurements to include the twisty and cclicky proto.
> 
> See: http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?p=1157361#post1157361
> 
> Since the same battery was used for all tests there should be some comparative validity.


----------



## HDS_Systems (Nov 22, 2008)

Kid9P,

The reflections you see are caused by microscopic thin spots in the hard anodize. During the hard anodize process, a large amount of gas is evolved from the body of the flashlights. It is common to have a gas bubble form and become trapped within the groves that form the knurling. Although most such gas bubbles are eventually dislodged and have no net affect on the coating thickness on the sides of the grooves, there are some that remain long enough to cause a thin spot.

If you look at these spots under the microscope, you will see that they are only on the sides of the groove within the knurling and are very small - typically on the order of 1 to 2 mils (<0.04mm) in diameter. Since these spots are interior to the knurling, they have no net affect on the exposed surface. Most hard anodized products with deep knurling show these spots. Shallow knurling will generally not trap gas bubbles.

Our competition no longer uses functional Military Type III hard anodizing and has thus eliminated the problem. The scratch prone Type II anodizing produces a very nice cosmetic finish, does not have the problem with trapping gas bubbles and allows for decorative colors. But as some have discovered, it quickly scratches when you actually use the flashlight. But it looks very nice when you take it out of the box.

We think having a durable functional coating is better than a less expensive cosmetic coating that will not stand the test of time.

Kamakazikev24,

Try AJC Trading (Flashahlics.co.uk). They should have stock shortly.

GottaWearShades,

That one got by during testing. It is now fixed. The work around is to swap your primary and secondary settings as you noted. Our apologies for the inconvenience.

Henry.


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## SaturnNyne (Nov 23, 2008)

turbodog said:


> I've updated my runtime measurements to include the twisty and cclicky proto.


Excellent information and much appreciated. Thanks for doing this, Turbo.




gottawearshades said:


> My NovaTac that I made start on Low goes first to Primary with a double-click, and the second double-click goes Secondary.


It's funny, after all these years I had no idea that setting force to minimum would cause the light to always go to primary with a double click, instead of the last level used. I don't like force, so until your post I never experimented with it enough to find out. Thanks for teaching me something.




Russki said:


> Both Ra lights do not seem to be great performers.
> My, R2 modded, B42XR still "the best" from HDS series in runtime and brightness.


Pray tell, how long does your light run on this 550mah BS li-ion that has, presumably, been around for many years and much use, since BS doesn't even offer a cell (sell a cell?) with such low capacity now? (Their current models are rated at 900mah and, by my tests, perform about the same as a 750mah AW. It sounds like the cell used for these tests was likely the exact same one used for the EDCs back in 2005.) As for the Twisty, there is obviously something going _terribly _wrong in that test, as noted. Anyone who has experienced the light for themselves or looked at any other runtime test of it knows that this is not in any way indicative of its normal performance. I'd expect an old EDC with a cutting edge emitter to be an excellent performer, certainly, but it's not going to embarrass the current models in any way that would justify criticizing what are some of the most efficient lights on the market, based on previous Twisty tests. The B42XR tested on the same battery went 53 minutes; was it a later model that likely had a more evolved emitter and lower current, or was it an early model? Is yours later or earlier? The currents vary widely. Was this cell in the same condition as when the 42 test was done, has this cell seen use since these tests, or is it used only for these tests to keep it in similar condition over the years, or is it a different cell? More importantly, how do the current lights compare to the current competition, instead of still excellent past lights? Very well, from everything we've seen already (check out the excellent results TIN got from his 100Tw). This is not a good place for bashing, especially if you have no solid data to back it and the data provided by others refutes it.

To everyone else, I apologize for dignifying that with a response, but I didn't want some newcomer/prospective customer to see it and think there's any validity to accusations of inefficiency.


----------



## matrixshaman (Nov 23, 2008)

Has anyone gotten a Ra Clicky N (narrow) yet? I'm looking forward to some pics of the LED/Reflector and some beam shots. For me this is the only thing holding back a purchase. I'd simply like to see how much the beam is different on the N model. I've seen comments that the standard 140C is similar to the NT lights and that's a really good beam but I'm hoping for just a little more throw without having too small of hot spot. I think I'm going to have to see a side by side comparison to decide.


----------



## Enzo Morocioli (Nov 23, 2008)

matrixshaman said:


> Has anyone gotten a Ra Clicky N (narrow) yet? I'm looking forward to some pics of the LED/Reflector and some beam shots. For me this is the only thing holding back a purchase. I'd simply like to see how much the beam is different on the N model. I've seen comments that the standard 140C is similar to the NT lights and that's a really good beam but I'm hoping for just a little more throw without having too small of hot spot. I think I'm going to have to see a side by side comparison to decide.



well.. I think I can help..

Take a look at this thread in which our infamous user Chronos provides great beam comparisons between an 85Tr, a 100Tw, a NT 120P and a Modded EDC B42..

The Tr and Tw Twisty should be comparable to the Cn and C/GT Clicky.

Though I certainly would like to see some closeup shots of the Clicky emitter, to verify it's similarity.


----------



## Kamakazikev24 (Nov 23, 2008)

I like the Novatav 120p beam.......be nice to see that compared to a 140cgt. 
Thanks.


----------



## cave dave (Nov 23, 2008)

I've been reading the various RA threads and think their often is a fundamental misunderstanding of how the HDS / RA calibration process works. This is understandable because they are so unlike any other light on the market.

First off understand that the variation in any actual LED emitter can be tremendous.

from: Henry's LED Flashlight White Paper 


> A similar situation results when you look at the light output at a specific current (the
> flux) and the forward voltage. A typical bin can cover a flux range of n to 1.3n and a
> forward voltage range of v to 1.1v. When combined in the worst case scenario, this can
> produce a 40% difference in overall efficiency within the same bin. This difference can
> ...



Every single HDS/Ra light is calibrated to achieve the stated out the front lumen output level at max. This means every single Ra light has a different current and voltage going to the LED to produce this brightness. The variability in flux and Vf of the LEDs themselves end up causing sometimes significantly shorter or longer runtimes from unit to unit as a result. So don't be surprised if your runtimes are different than what others post. You are still guaranteed an hour on a primary. I expect some lucky individuals will see two hrs runtimes now that the 170's aren't going into production. (The extra efficiency of the led lottery winners will all go into the runtime)

Compare that to every other manufacturer who at best uses a constant current driver. The inherent LED flux variability can cause often significant brightness variations and the Vf variability runtime differences. 

There are pros and cons to both methods. It is actually easier for a consumer to see runtime differences than brightness differences. Either way the consumer upon comparing his light to another light of the same model has a good chance of thinking his light is defective if the lottery differences are great enough. Don't worry if this happens to you it just means the LED lottery is alive and well.

Note: it is my mostly unsubstantiated believe from what I've observed that Novatac no longer uses the calibration equipment they bought from HDS and that the brightness of their lights is often highly variable.

*Question for Henry*: You wrote the quoted remark in 2004. Have you noticed any reduction in the variability of the current crop of LEDs?


----------



## HDS_Systems (Nov 23, 2008)

Cave Dave,

The bin variations are still there and as great as ever. However, a couple of LED manufacturers have started using half-bin sizes which reduces the worst case spread by about half. However, the classic problem of availability of production quantities in the more desirable bin is still alive and well.

One minor correction to your text. The one hour minimum is on the High setting. The Primary setting has a minimum runtime of 10 hours.

And the evidence I have seen confirms your unsubstantiated belief - it fell victim to cost cutting, leaving us as the only manufacturer to provide calibrated flashlights.

Henry.


----------



## StandardBattery (Nov 23, 2008)

LLCoolBeans said:


> I stand corrected. I just re-read the manual, and you are absolutely right.
> 
> It's just forced to Primary by default. I didn't realize you could change it.
> 
> My bad.


Well it turns out I was partially wrong too; when I stated what happens with "no" Forced Setting, it does not start on Primary but on the last used setting. I had forgotten that the Factory default was Forced Primary, not no Forced Setting.

Good catch *GottaWearShades*. :twothumbs


----------



## StandardBattery (Nov 23, 2008)

cave dave said:


> ... Note: it is my mostly unsubstantiated believe from what I've observed that Novatac no longer uses the calibration equipment they bought from HDS and that the brightness of their lights is often highly variable. ...


Very Interesting, this would be big news for the CPF crowd. I don't think many people appreciate how useful it is to have a calibrated light source. I guess not everyone needs it or it would be more popular. My two earlier NT 11x and 14x are almost certainly calibrarted. Since my 30x light died a quick death I can't say... I'll have to attempt resurection soon.

This would certainly be a big Red star if Ra was the only one with calibrated lights.


----------



## cave dave (Nov 23, 2008)

HDS_Systems said:


> Cave Dave,
> ...One minor correction to your text. The one hour minimum is on the High setting. The Primary setting has a minimum runtime of 10 hours.....



Clarification #2: I said "an hour on* a *primary". I meant on a *primary *non rechargeable Cr123 battery as opposed to a rechargeable LiIon battery rCR123.


----------



## brucec (Nov 23, 2008)

StandardBattery said:


> Very Interesting, this would be big news for the CPF crowd. I don't think many people appreciate how useful it is to have a calibrated light source. I guess not everyone needs it or it would be more popular.
> 
> This would certainly be a big Red star if Ra was the only one with calibrated lights.


 
I have never understood why calibration is important. And also why Ra emphasizes this point. After all, even the Ra website is quick to point out that even a 20% difference in light output is insignificant, especially if you are sacrificing runtime to get it.

*"Increasing the maximum light output by 19% will take a dramatic toll on runtime because the battery, electronics and the LED all loose efficiency very quickly when driven to their maximum. As a result the last 19% increase in light output - which is almost invisible to your eyes - may cost you 50% of your runtime. Why pay such a penalty when you cannot easily see the difference?"*

Why go through all of the trouble of making everything exactly 100 or 120 lumens output? There seems to be some contradiction here, unless Ra is only tuning down their lights. Of course, there is the lottery in place leading up to 51% difference, but that is at the extreme end of the distribution curve, a more probable number might be 10-20% as seen by differences in runtime of constant current lights. Personally, I haven't seen huge differences in visible output between the same models of Fenix, Nitecore, Malkoff, etc regardless of CC or PWM. And I am not sure if and when Novatac stopped calibration, did CPF cry or even notice it? As the Ra website says, 20% lumen output is insignificant so why force all of the lights to be at the same lumen output? Differences in runtime are much more apparant to end users than slight differences in output.


----------



## HDS_Systems (Nov 24, 2008)

Cave Dave,

You're right, I missed the article "a" when I read your post. It changes the whole meaning of the sentence.

BruceC,

I guess it comes down to truth in advertising. If I say it is 140 lumens, I would like it to be 140 lumens instead of only 112 lumens (20% less), or even lower. If I were to do that I could claim much higher lumen outputs and much longer runtimes at the same time and you would probably never notice. But that is not the way we do business.

Granted, measuring lumens is much more problematic than measuring volts or amps or liters. And that is why lumen tolerances are by necessity higher than tolerances for measuring other quantities. But that is quite different from purposely saying one thing and doing something completely different.

Allowing you to make the decision to trade lumens for runtime is why the light is provided with closely spaced visually even output increments and why you are provided with a method for customizing the settings.

Henry.


----------



## brucec (Nov 24, 2008)

HDS_Systems said:


> I guess it comes down to truth in advertising. If I say it is 140 lumens, I would like it to be 140 lumens instead of only 112 lumens (20% less), or even lower.


 
Very honest which is why we appreciate your no-compromise way of doing business.

However, I still think there is a difference between checking each light to make sure it meets minimum output specs (>=140 burst, >=100 sustained for =1hr) vs inividually calibrating each light to give EXACTLY the same output (=140 burst, =100 sustained for >=1hr).

I don't know what your production distribution is, but it seems to me that you must have to calibrate a lot of 95 and 105 lumen lights to 100. Or maybe 100 is on the low end of the distribution so most of the lights are backed down to give additional runtime? Perhaps there is some automation involved.


----------



## brucec (Nov 24, 2008)

There are some pretty good smash-up pictures and reports on the Twisty. Anything like that for the Clicky? I wonder if the switch is as durable as the twist.


----------



## Dadof6 (Nov 24, 2008)

Just wanted everyone to know I got my Ra Clicky 170-CN today . . . and I love it.


----------



## LLCoolBeans (Nov 24, 2008)

Dadof6 said:


> Just wanted everyone to know I got my Ra Clicky 170-CN today . . . and I love it.



170!? How did you pull that off?

Maybe you are not aware of the product lineup changes?


----------



## luxlover (Nov 24, 2008)

Dadof6 said:


> Just wanted everyone to know I got my Ra Clicky 170-CN today . . . and I love it.


Dad,
Excuse me? Didn't you mean 140Cn? If so, then you are the first to report in the receipt of a 140Cn. As a reward, you get to keep it all for yourself and not volunteer it as a CPF Passaround! Congratulations! 
If you meant a 170Cn, you just started a war! :devil:

Jeff


----------



## luxlover (Nov 24, 2008)

LLCoolBeans said:


> 170!? How did you pull that off?
> 
> Maybe you are not aware of the product lineup changes?


That's right coolbeans, tell the lad.


----------



## Dadof6 (Nov 24, 2008)

luxlover said:


> Dad,
> Excuse me? Didn't you mean 140Cn? If so, then you are the first to report in the receipt of a 140Cn. As a reward, you get to keep it all for yourself and not volunteer it as a CPF Passaround! Congratulations!
> If you meant a 170Cn, you just started a war! :devil:
> 
> Jeff



I meant what I said. Let the arrows fly.


----------



## luxlover (Nov 24, 2008)

Dadof6 said:


> I meant what I said. Let the arrows fly.


OK, whose palm do I have to grease to get one of those "bad boys?"

Jeff
*Green With Envy*


----------



## LLCoolBeans (Nov 24, 2008)

Dadof6 said:


> I meant what I said. Let the arrows fly.



:huh: WHAT!!!one!?

But how? And how can you be sure?


----------



## 182_blue (Nov 24, 2008)

where can i buy one ? (uk friendly needed)


----------



## gottawearshades (Nov 24, 2008)

What? How? Where? Who? When? Which? 

Help!



Dadof6 said:


> Just wanted everyone to know I got my Ra Clicky 170-CN today . . . and I love it.


----------



## Enzo Morocioli (Nov 24, 2008)

182_blue said:


> where can i buy one ? (uk friendly needed)



http://www.flashaholics.co.uk/ 

But have to wait for them to get it in stock


----------



## luxlover (Nov 24, 2008)

LLCoolBeans said:


> :huh: WHAT!!!one!?
> 
> But how? And how can you be sure?


Dad is a hit and run tease. He will be back to torture us some more.

Jeff


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## Dadof6 (Nov 24, 2008)

I know it is a 170N because it says 170N on the bag. I got it because of a special situation that I worked out with Henry a long time ago. Henry is a great guy who has always backed up his stuff and I am most grateful for him keeping his word.


----------



## luxlover (Nov 24, 2008)

Enzo Morocioli said:


> http://www.flashaholics.co.uk/
> 
> But have to wait for them to get it in stock


England? Fugetaboutit! I'm buying mine from Dad's source.....once I pay him to tell me where that is! :thinking:


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## LLCoolBeans (Nov 24, 2008)

Dadof6 said:


> I know it is a 170N because it says 170N on the bag. I got it because of a special situation that I worked out with Henry a long time ago. Henry is a great guy who has always backed up his stuff and I am most grateful for him keeping his word.



You probably shouldn't have told us that.


----------



## luxlover (Nov 24, 2008)

Dadof6 said:


> I know it is a 170N because it says 170N on the bag. I got it because of a special situation that I worked out with Henry a long time ago. Henry is a great guy who has always backed up his stuff and I am most grateful for him keeping his word.


I am listening to Dad. I can feel it in my bones that I am about to have a "special situation" to work out with Hank. These things happen when you least expect them. 

Seriously Dad, congratulations. We are hoping that you stand tall next to Henry's 170Cn entry on Saturn's Clicky registry..... Ra Clicky Serial Number Registry! - List

Enjoy it, and give us some info as to it's beam pattern, compared to a 100T Twisty or a 140C Clicky, if you have either of them.


----------



## jojobos (Nov 24, 2008)

By the way, is anyone still waiting for the Ra proto? 

Dadof6, congrats on 170cn! Please P.M. me if you decided to sell that one in the future!!


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## Dead_Nuts (Nov 24, 2008)

My situation is special . . .


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## m16a (Nov 24, 2008)

Dead_Nuts said:


> My situation is special . . .




Yeah, mine too! I guess that means we should all have 170C/CN/CGT's


----------



## FredericoFreire (Nov 24, 2008)

I don't think it is fair offering 170 lumen version for this or that customer making the rest of us mere mortals who can't have those options.

I think that manufacturers should put up a line of products and prices, that money can buy, and not make little groups of special people that have access to special products, and even more, state over the forums that received it and almost say that others flashaholics can't have it.


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## Kid9P (Nov 24, 2008)

FredericoFreire said:


> I don't think it is fair offering 170 lumen version for this or that customer making the rest of us mere mortals who can't have those options.
> 
> I think that manufacturers should put up a line of products and prices, that money can buy, and not make little groups of special people that have access to special products, and even more, state over the forums that received it and almost say that others flashaholics can't have it.


 

Well Said !!!

I was going to order a 140Cn....but I'm officially done with the RaClicky and done with any RaClicky thread.
From the constant missed release dates, lack of info in between and now a select few can get a 170.... I wash my hands of this nonsense.

:shakehead

I'm sticking to my trusty Novatac's !


----------



## Kamakazikev24 (Nov 24, 2008)

I have to agree that I feel the same way. 
I have just ordered a 140cgt thinking this would be the best Ra light. 
Now I find out others are getting ones that are even better but little old me who's got the cash sitting here can't have one as I am not a 'special case'
I don't like the 'one rule for him and another rule for you thing'
Should be the same for everyone. 
Henry, I think I would like to feel 'kinda special' having one of your expensive but wonderfuly made lights.(if you know what I mean) This just makes me feel abit 'second class' when we are not paying 'second class money. 
What about all the people who payed for these 170 versions and were told they can't have them. How are they going to feel?
You should of told your special mate to keep it to him self.


----------



## bullfrog (Nov 24, 2008)

Kamakazikev24 said:


> You should of told your special mate to keep it to him self.



+1


----------



## karlthev (Nov 24, 2008)

Now I'm CORNFUSED!! I received what I thought was a proto last week or so but, the BAG is labled "140C"!!! Guess that means it only LOOKS like a proto??!! Nah, I think maybe the bags got mixed?? Wadaya think? 



Karl


----------



## Kamakazikev24 (Nov 24, 2008)

who knows! It seems to me that it's all going abit 'pete tong' :-/


----------



## LLCoolBeans (Nov 24, 2008)

:sigh:



Kid9P said:


> From the constant missed release dates,



Why is it that Henry is expected to predict the exact hour a new product will hit the market. It was only a couple of months late. What's the big deal?



Kid9P said:


> lack of info in between



Are you kidding? We got lots of updates. What other manufacturer even posts any updates about soon to be released products, here on CPF? 



Kid9P said:


> and now a select few can get a 170....



The only reason Henry discontinued the 170 series was that it takes about 10 140 orders to produce one 170. Everyone was ordering the 170's so he could not fill all the orders.

So, he made a 170 for a personal friend to satisfy an agreement made in the past, there is nothing wrong with that. It does show that Henry is a man of his word. The personal friend should have kept it on the down low however, that would have been the neighborly thing to do.

I'm guessing that eventually once enough qualifying LEDs have been weeded out, Henry will release a limited run of 170s and charge a premium for them.


----------



## Kamakazikev24 (Nov 24, 2008)

LLCoolBeans, did you order a 170?


----------



## Dadof6 (Nov 24, 2008)

Henry made it clear he was getting enough quality LEDs that would give him a consistent 170 lumens for one hour, he did, however have a few. I was lucky to get one. However, I also, after makeing the deal for the 170 that Henry honored, still ordered and received a 140 clicky because I still wanted a 140 because it is an awesome light and because I don't believe the 170 will be a future offering anytime soon.

Don't knock Henry for being a man of his word, and don't knock him for making sure he gets us the best quality lights out there, even if it takes a little more time.


----------



## karlthev (Nov 24, 2008)

Well, good for you! The 170s 'll be along now and then and then, we'll get the chance that's all. Give us some updates though!


Karl


----------



## LLCoolBeans (Nov 24, 2008)

Kamakazikev24 said:


> LLCoolBeans, did you order a 170?



Yes, but my pre-order was automatically changed to a 140, when Henry changed the lineup.


----------



## Kamakazikev24 (Nov 24, 2008)

LLCoolBeans said:


> Yes, but my pre-order was automatically changed to a 140, when Henry changed the lineup.


 
I know your understanding of the reasons, but are you not a little miffed that others have them and you, even though you put the money up front a long time ago Won't get?


----------



## luxlover (Nov 24, 2008)

Kamakazikev24 said:


> LLCoolBeans, did you order a 170?


I also ordered a 170C, then called a 120C. I remember that this Russtang list was longer than the other two lists.....120Cn and 120Cgt. ALL OF US were disappointed in the downgrade to a light capable of less output. We learned to live with it, having read Henry's explanation.

The disclosure by Dadof6 would be less troublesome to many of us if the explanation of the deal made with Henry was disclosed in the first post. Anything that transpired that was fair and honest, certainly could not be a secret matter, especially with all the bad feelings that have been created since the post.

To try to ease the tension in this thread, I suggest that Dadof6 could have been a beta tester who helped Henry make the light better, and the 170Cn was his thank you. I have received very nice lights for my role as beta tester. It is a great reward. Another scenario may have been that Dad had a few EDC series lights that Henry could not repair, and he surrendered them to Henry for a 170Cn light when they became available. Either case above is within the realm of integrity. In the free world, everybody is innocent until proven guilty.

But Dad and/or Henry should chime in and get this thread back on track. Otherwise, the suspicion that we are seeing will escalate, and our exthusiasm for the lights we ordered will be replaced by hostility and mistrust.

I suggest that anybody else who has acquired a 170C, 170Cn or 170Cgt from Henry should not post this fact, unless it is accompanied by a legitimate explanation for that acquisition. "Don't ask don't tell" is a good policy to adopt here!

Jeff


----------



## luxlover (Nov 24, 2008)

Kamakazikev24 said:


> I know your understanding of the reasons, but are you not a little miffed that others have them and you, even though you put the money up front a long time ago Won't get?


I would be even more disturbed if a month after the 140 series of lights become available to anybody who wants one, a 170 series of lights suddenly appear. It is obvious from the Russtang lists that we were willing to pay a premium price for a premium light. We would rather have the lights in our pockets, than the extra $50. I think I speak for all of us when I say that this applies to now, as well as then! :wave:

Jeff


----------



## :)> (Nov 24, 2008)

Guys,

Henry is a fantastic guy and an outstanding member of this forum. Dadof6 is also top notch and he should be able to enjoy his 170C without bitterness from others here; why not enjoy it with him?

I have been enjoying my 200-Cn for some time now anyway... Great light and it out-throws my Lumapower MRV:nana:


----------



## karlthev (Nov 24, 2008)

Kamakazikev24 said:


> I know your understanding of the reasons, but are you not a little miffed that others have them and you, even though you put the money up front a long time ago Won't get?




I am--I "ordered" and, *have had my money in* from the beginning and was downgraded so to speak. I'd have preferred that this not happen obviously but it won't detract from the light I do receive. I have been disappointed before but I'll live through this one.


Karl


----------



## h2oflyer (Nov 24, 2008)

I guess the 170C will be auctioned off when available.

It will probably come with a mail in coupon for the clip.

I haven't been a CPF member that long,but this is the saddest
product offering I have ever bought into. 

Was a little bit sorry I backed out a couple of weeks ago - NOT ANY MORE !


----------



## cave dave (Nov 24, 2008)

It sounds like Dad had a defective HDS U85 and Henry replaced it with the equivalent model as per his awesome warranty on a line he no longer owns. So if ya all want a 170 you are going to have to find some way to acquire a U85 and then figure a way to break it. Good Luck!

So when do we get to see pictures of the extremely limited run all Titanium 170C clicky? I'd show pictures of mine but I had to sell my camera, computer and dog to afford it. 
:nana:


----------



## luxlover (Nov 24, 2008)

:)> said:


> Guys,
> Henry is a fantastic guy and an outstanding member of this forum. Dadof6 is also top notch and he should be able to enjoy his 170C without bitterness from others here; why not enjoy it with him?
> 
> I have been enjoying my 200Cn for some time now anyway... Great light and it out-throws my Lumapower MRV. :nana:


Goatee,
Very funny, a 200Cn! Do you want us to get a rope for you, too? Have you ever wanted to be taller? Here is your chance. :nana: :nana:

Looking at the posts after Dad's disclosure, I don't believe it is bitterness at all. It is the mysterious nature of the deal between Henry and Dad, without the feeling that an explanation should be offered. It doesn't look good if the masses are told that it is none of their business what transpired between Henry and Dad. It doesn't matter to me as much as it does to others. But we do want this thread to be optimistic and vibrant as it was earlier, right? Check it out, people are getting lights everyday, and I am very excited for them as well as for myself, while I wait for my turn to come! 

Jeff


----------



## luxlover (Nov 24, 2008)

cave dave said:


> It sounds like Dad had a defective HDS U85 and Henry replaced it with the equivalent model as per his awesome warranty on a line he no longer owns. So if ya all want a 170 you are going to have to find some way to acquire a U85 and then figure a way to break it. Good Luck!
> 
> So when do we get to see pictures of the extremely limited run all Titanium 170C Clicky? I'd show pictures of mine, but I had to sell my camera, computer and dog to afford it.
> :nana:


That's the spirit Dave. Wait a cotton pickin' minute! Who has such a light and didn't tell me about it? There goes the neighborhood!

My condolences to you for the financial predicament that had you disposing of your most priced possessions! 

Jeff


----------



## Kamakazikev24 (Nov 24, 2008)

I just feel as I stated earlier that I have ordered what I thought was a TOP light for top money and then to find out that even though this light is going to be great it's not the top Ra light that I was hoping it would be......
Am sorry but I am one of those people who likes and indeed enjoys having nice and exclusive things. And like others here we don't mind paying for them.


----------



## Kamakazikev24 (Nov 24, 2008)

Anyway, Where are the pics! We want pics!


----------



## luxlover (Nov 24, 2008)

Kamakazikev24 said:


> I just feel as I stated earlier that I have ordered what I thought was a TOP light for top money and then to find out that even though this light is going to be great it's not the top Ra light that I was hoping it would be......
> Am sorry but I am one of those people who likes and indeed enjoys having nice and exclusive things. And like others here we don't mind paying for them.


Nothing wrong with that logic, mate. Soon we will be too much in awe over the light we have received, to remember what happened this afternoon.

Jeff
Having kittens hearing about the Clicky and seeing "her."


----------



## turbodog (Nov 24, 2008)

Kamakazikev24 said:


> I have to agree that I feel the same way.
> I have just ordered a 140cgt thinking this would be the best Ra light.
> Now I find out others are getting ones that are even better but little old me who's got the cash sitting here can't have one as I am not a 'special case'
> I don't like the 'one rule for him and another rule for you thing'
> ...




Second class...?
First class...?

You don't know that dadof6 wasn't the doctor that cured Henry's sister of leukemia. In fact, none of us know crap about this transaction. He may have offered an extra 200-300 dollars.

It's Henry's perogative to sell any light he made for any price he is happy with. 

Quit whining, everyone.


----------



## karlthev (Nov 24, 2008)

+1 



Karl


----------



## LLCoolBeans (Nov 24, 2008)

turbodog said:


> Second class...?
> First class...?
> 
> You don't know that dadof6 wasn't the doctor that cured Henry's sister of leukemia. In fact, none of us know crap about this transaction. He may have offered an extra 200-300 dollars.
> ...



+100


----------



## tsl (Nov 24, 2008)

jojobos said:


> By the way, is anyone still waiting for the Ra proto?


 
To help get us back on topic, I ordered a proto last week. I emailed Henry about when the light would ship, and he said that the next batch would be ready and ship sometime this week.


----------



## jojobos (Nov 24, 2008)

tsl, thanks for the info! I ordered last week as well.


----------



## matrixshaman (Nov 24, 2008)

I've got 5 of the 170's - 3 of the 170Cn and 2 of the 170C. $500 each. I'll sell them here for what I paid for them. See below












OK - just Kidding!! 
But lets think about this a minute. Henry was offering 170's initially. I'm sure he thought they could be produced at one time. But it probably became obvious at some point in the testing phase that it was too difficult to find enough emitters to fill what would likely be a LOT of 170 orders. So I'm sure Henry had at least one if not several 170's made but there was no reasonable way to make all of them 170's without probably throwing away a boat load of emitters that didn't measure up. So in his honest business approach he cuts back the output spec to one more realistic. Many light makers would probably have just pumped them out claiming 170 knowing that only a very few would reach that but who would really know? But being an upstanding and honest person that I'm sure Henry is he refused to bloat his Lumen numbers into something that was not honestly obtainable. 
So then the question probably came to mind - what to do with the few that had been built and DID measure up to the 170 Lumen minimum? Toss them in the garbage? NOT! Of course not - he chose to sell or give them to one or possibly more people whom he may have owed a light or favor to. Whatever the reason it does not really matter - he had one or some 170's and he certainly has the right to sell them. Sure I would have really liked one but I'm not going to whine about it - it's just the luck of the draw in some cases there just isn't enough white Turkey breast for everyone but we all still get to eat 
So lets put it in perspective and ask ourselves if it's really worth complaining about. A lot of people in the world won't even get to eat.

A sincere Happy Thanksgiving to everyone


----------



## tricker (Nov 24, 2008)

why is everyone mad....i mean its not like its a titanium 170-C


----------



## :)> (Nov 24, 2008)

luxlover said:


> Goatee,
> Very funny, a 200Cn! Do you want us to get a rope for you, too? Have you ever wanted to be taller? Here is your chance. :nana: :nana:
> 
> Looking at the posts after Dad's disclosure, I don't believe it is bitterness at all. It is the mysterious nature of the deal between Henry and Dad, without the feeling that an explanation should be offered. It doesn't look good if the masses are told that it is none of their business what transpired between Henry and Dad. It doesn't matter to me as much as it does to others. But we do want this thread to be optimistic and vibrant as it was earlier, right? Check it out, people are getting lights everyday, and I am very excited for them as well as for myself, while I wait for my turn to come!
> ...


 


:kiss::laughing:


----------



## Robertesq1 (Nov 24, 2008)

Kamakazikev24 said:


> I have to agree that I feel the same way.
> I have just ordered a 140cgt thinking this would be the best Ra light.
> Now I find out others are getting ones that are even better but little old me who's got the cash sitting here can't have one as I am not a 'special case'
> I don't like the 'one rule for him and another rule for you thing'
> ...



+1


----------



## SaturnNyne (Nov 24, 2008)

HDS_Systems said:


> And the evidence I have seen confirms your unsubstantiated belief - it fell victim to cost cutting, leaving us as the only manufacturer to provide calibrated flashlights.





StandardBattery said:


> My two earlier NT 11x and 14x are almost certainly calibrarted. Since my 30x light died a quick death I can't say... I'll have to attempt resurection soon.


I do not believe there is a NovaTac made that is truly and accurately calibrated. My 120P is from the first run, 10xxx, and its calibration is very obviously off.

I've been intending to start a thread on this for a few months to collect more data, but now that Henry has come out and stated that he's found the NTs to not be calibrated, there probably isn't much need; I'll just tell you what I know here.


My 120P, at full power, appears to be just slightly short of the claimed output. It is just barely brighter than a known 85lm source; I estimate it to actually be in the 105-110 area. Not a huge difference in use, but enough to pick up on when comparing closely.


At "85lm" it appears to be quite accurately calibrated to 85lm. Perhaps this level does receive some calibration and every other is just left to fall where it may?


At "60lm" it's just barely brighter than 42lm, I'd guess it's around 50lm.


It's been a while since I did my testing, but I believe I also found that at "21lm" it appears to be only 15lm.


At "0.08lm" it is actually putting out at least 0.16lm, and quite likely more (I'm not confident enough in my ability to estimate at such low levels, so I can't get any more precise than that).
So at the upper end and down into the medium range, it's accurate on one level but comes up short at every other. I haven't compared enough of the levels to know if any other levels are what they claim to be or where the claimed and actual cross over, but somewhere in the low range the trend actually reverses.

I did my testing of the higher levels by bounce comparing my 120P against a Ra 85Tr and my B42XRGT, with Enzo Morocioli present to verify what I was observing. I compared the difference at the lowest level by simply comparing my two EDCs in a bounce comparison at a much closer distance, though the difference between them is so blatant that careful comparison was not actually required to confirm it. The HDS and Ra proved to be identically calibrated on every level we could compare.

Also, these findings were supported by at least two 120P owners on here who mentioned that their lowest level is obviously much more than 0.08lm, as well as Henry himself mentioning previously that all of the examples he has do not actually go down to 0.08lm. And now he's stated that they don't seem to be calibrated at all and implied that they're not hitting their claimed maximum, so I assume his observations are quite similar to mine.


----------



## SaturnNyne (Nov 24, 2008)

karlthev said:


> I received what I thought was a proto last week or so but, the BAG is labled "140C"!!! Guess that means it only LOOKS like a proto??!! Nah, I think maybe the bags got mixed?? Wadaya think?


I think it was labeled as what it functionally is. Prototype isn't a model, it's a term for an early experimental version of something. As it happens, all of what we know as Ra Clicky prototypes are 140Cs internally. So yes, you have a 140C prototype.




luxlover said:


> The disclosure by Dadof6 would be less troublesome to many of us if the explanation of the deal made with Henry was disclosed in the first post. Anything that transpired that was fair and honest, certainly could not be a secret matter, especially with all the bad feelings that have been created since the post.


The deal between them is none of our business if they do not want to share it. Whatever transpired, I'm sure it was entirely "honest;" whether it was fair or secret is of little importance and more a matter of opinion and personal outlook on life.



luxlover said:


> Either case above is within the realm of integrity. In the free world, everybody is innocent until proven guilty.


The free world also allows a craftsman to privately sell his creation to whomever he pleases, without a committee of the jealous and disappointed trying to lock him up for not choosing them. There is no issue of integrity or guilt here. A manufacturer was able to build a large number of one thing and a small number of something better. Selling the better version to everyone who wants one is not an option that complies with reality at this time. So, instead, he sold the plentiful to anyone desiring it and sold the rare to a select few. That's his right, and it is not our right to tell him what he can and can't sell in what numbers to who. We can't all be elected president, despite what our mothers told us; we can't all own everything that Jones next-door owns; and we can't all get a light that can be made only in small numbers right now. This is the state of the world we live in; the more you accept it, the less you feel the need to cry about it.




h2oflyer said:


> I haven't been a CPF member that long,but this is the saddest product offering I have ever bought into.


Stick around a bit, you'll see much worse. You made mention of auctioning it off, so at first I thought you were referencing a much sadder chain of events, but I guess it was just a coincidence since you haven't yet seen one.





:)> said:


> Henry is a fantastic guy and an outstanding member of this forum. Dadof6 is also top notch and he should be able to enjoy his 170C without bitterness from others here; why not enjoy it with him?


:thumbsup:



:)> said:


> I have been enjoying my 200-Cn for some time now anyway... Great light and it out-throws my Lumapower MRV


:twothumbs




turbodog said:


> It's Henry's perogative to sell any light he made for any price he is happy with.
> 
> Quit whining, everyone.


Exactly. Pretty simple.




matrixshaman said:


> Whatever the reason it does not really matter - he had one or some 170's and he certainly has the right to sell them. Sure I would have really liked one but I'm not going to whine about it - it's just the luck of the draw in some cases there just isn't enough white Turkey breast for everyone but we all still get to eat
> So lets put it in perspective and ask ourselves if it's really worth complaining about. A lot of people in the world won't even get to eat.
> 
> A sincere Happy Thanksgiving to everyone


That's nicely and appropriately put. This is an especially good time to demonstrate a little perspective and be thankful for what we have, rather than venting our jealousies on those who have more, for whatever reason. Happy Thanksgiving!


----------



## grateful1 (Nov 24, 2008)

So, instead of downgrading folks, could we(those who ordered a 170) have been told that we would have to wait longer? Or were there simply not enough and it was a 'down the list' sale? 

-special specific situations not withstanding

Maybe someone can point a linky to where the original notice is located.

This is my first high end light, I'm sure it will be great.


----------



## SaturnNyne (Nov 25, 2008)

grateful1 said:


> So, instead of downgrading folks, could we(those who ordered a 170) have been told that we would have to wait longer? Or were there simply not enough and it was a 'down the list' sale?
> 
> -special specific situations not withstanding
> 
> ...


The announcement was made here. They were discontinued due to not enough of the higher efficiency emitters being available at this time to cope with the demand for them. It stands to reason that they will be offered later when technology/supply improves, hence the inclusion of the 170 table in the manual. If a pre-orderer wishes to wait rather than be downgraded, the procedure is a very simple one: cancel your downgraded order and wait. How long will the wait be for 170s in production quantities? We'll have to wait and see how long the wait is. 

Whichever model you get, this will definitely be a great light. In my opinion, you're starting out at the very best.


----------



## yotom (Nov 25, 2008)

I stopped whining-and canceled my order!

Have fun,

Tom


----------



## Kamakazikev24 (Nov 25, 2008)

I think if there were some 170s available, A lottery would have been a good and fair way to give people the chance to get one.
Posting up on here that you've got one as your a 'special' case does'nt go down well.
After all, we are all 'special' to someone! LOL.


----------



## grateful1 (Nov 25, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> The announcement was made here. They were discontinued due to not enough of the higher efficiency emitters being available at this time to cope with the demand for them. It stands to reason that they will be offered later when technology/supply improves, hence the inclusion of the 170 table in the manual. If a pre-orderer wishes to wait rather than be downgraded, the procedure is a very simple one: cancel your downgraded order and wait. How long will the wait be for 170s in production quantities? We'll have to wait and see how long the wait is.
> 
> Whichever model you get, this will definitely be a great light. In my opinion, you're starting out at the very best.


 

Cool. I knew it was somewhere.

I guess I'll just have to get on another list for a 170...and get one now! 

----------

Henry, do you think we could have a list for 170 prospects? or would that work through the resellers?


----------



## paxxus (Nov 25, 2008)

Wow, that backfired  A minimal amount of imagination would have seen that one coming :duh2:

nuff said


----------



## Dead_Nuts (Nov 25, 2008)

I agree that Henry can sell whatever he wants to whomever he wants. This is still a semi-free country, after all. 

Those of us who ordered from the very beginning (I went for the absolute most expensive model), were quite disappointed to have our orders downgraded. We knew that there were probably enough 170-class emitters for at least some of the early orders to be filled. So why not just fill as many as he can? Well, we figured he decided that wouldn't be fair or accepted well by the less fortunate. He was right. 

Now you can't blame those of us who might have had a chance at a 170 (due to our places in line) to feel unhappy about this action. It's still a semi-free country, after all.


----------



## Hondo (Nov 25, 2008)

I'd just like to offer up a piece of borderline off-topic insight. Some may find it useless, others may already realize it, but some may find it enlightening. It has nothing to do with the offering of a 170 lumen model for pre-order, or how folks with $$ up front should feel, but:

There is a bit of an elephant in the room, which is those top performing emitters. They still exist in the lots of emitters being used for production. And Henry surely will not be discarding them. But as we all know, he will tune all lights to the advertised output levels. So, what that means is that those emitters will now be putting out spec output with lower power consumption, and will behave as "XR", or extended runtime, models. But Henry has decided not to add that feature to the model proliferation. So these overperformers, in the runtime domain, will be a bonus to those who get them. And distribution of this feature will be by as true a lottery as there is, dumb luck. Most, of course won't take the time to do runtime tests on their light to even know if they are at or near the high end of performance, since all lights will perform so very well, even at the minimum end of the spectrum.

Just thought I would throw that out there, sorry if it is not really much help to some.


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## Dead_Nuts (Nov 25, 2008)

Hondo -- I considered that as well. The thing is, some of us were willing to pay for a guarantee, instead of hoping for a luck of the draw scenario. Those emitters may well be mixed in with current product. Or, they may be set aside at Ra until such a time as enough 170's can be produced to fill some level of demand; perhaps at an even higher price than first offered. That will really tick some of us off.

Those of us who pre-order not only help ourselves to one of the first production units, we also give the producer a pretty good idea of initial demand. That information is very valuable to them. I say, if they only had 20 emitters that hit the higher standards, give them to the first 20 to place an order for them. What could be more fair than that?


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## karlthev (Nov 25, 2008)

Well, I can't help but respond here...again. I did pre-order and pre-paid for the privilege of getting a copy of the highest performer of this series. I show my support of many lights by purchasing (and often, pre-paying) though there are many who would scoff at that process. As we all know, many folks express great interest in products until it comes time to pay--then reality kicks in and they fade away. I firmly believe that a manufacturer gauges interest and production in accord with true interest expressed as money up front. I'll freely admit to the fact that i have been "burned" as well by fronting money but certainly not with the reputation of this designer/builder/manufacturer. In view of my expectation and my pre-payment I was dismayed to see that my order was downgraded (though I did receive the refund) to a lesser-performing model. That I will live with. I understand as well that premium lights are offered on a limited basis and not everyone can get these lights and, I was prepared to wait for them to come out but then....the ill-advised public announcement that someone had gotten one....!! I'll be OK.... but much more wary with these lights in the future.... 


Karl


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## LLCoolBeans (Nov 25, 2008)

I think Henry just priced the 170 models (120 at the time) too low. I was in for $50 extra, but if they were $100 extra, I would have been out for sure.


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## Hondo (Nov 25, 2008)

I fully appreciate all points of view here, and that is why I tried not to suggest that my observation had anything to do with content delivered to early orderers of these lights. It was only a technical observation for those few who might not already realize what the downstream effect of calibrating all product to 140 lumens will be - assuming the best LED's are not culled for a later introduction of a higher model.

I don't have a horse in this race myself, my money is still down on a titanium Firefly III . So, it could be worse! (Now THAT is meant as consolation to those who don't feel they are getting a good value here - see sticky in Manufacturer's Corner).

I am waiting to see how things go, however, since as an owner of six HDS/Novatac products I am unlikely to dodge this model forever .


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## yaesumofo (Nov 25, 2008)

this thread has become the sour grapes thread.
Talk about drifting off topic...
I would like to know about the clicky.
How does it handle?
I have a twisty and it is a darn heavy duty light. Do those of you who have both think the clicky is as heavy duty as the twisty?
I have versions of most of the lights that Henry has been involved in for some time now from the ARC IV onward. I don't have one of each but one of most.
I have in the past paid premium dough for premium (GT) lights from HDS.
I never was able to truly justify the extra dough for the GT.
Are the "brighter" light that much brighter to justify the higher price?
If I had orderd a 170 lumen light and my order got "downgraded" I would have either cancelled the order or I would have simply accepted the new light knowing that Henry has a method behind his maddness. Who cares if a coupple guys got the 170 lumen light.
Remember the titanium lights Henry made for a few people? For some reson people got upset then. Hell every Henry does somthing that doesn't fall into "line" people get pissed.

Look I can't say that I agree with his methods. He has done some bonehead moves in the past. For example saying one thing and dooing another. Oh well.

The bottom line here is that it is Henry's business to do with as he wishes. He is free to make and sell anything he wants to whom ever he wants. 
I rekon it is time to just allow Henry to do what he likes. When his product makes it to market we are free to either buy or not buy. 
For Now I will enjoy on an occasional basis the lights I own that henry has played a part in making. If the Clicky is worthy I may end up with one of those too. Time and market forces will determine that.
Yaesumofo


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## BytorJr (Nov 26, 2008)

Ditto yaesumofo!!!!!!!!!!!! It's a flashlight folks....quit acting like it's like somebody attacking your kid sister.


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## brucec (Nov 26, 2008)

yaesumofo said:


> Talk about drifting off topic...
> I would like to know about the clicky.
> How does it handle?
> I have a twisty and it is a darn heavy duty light. Do those of you who have both think the clicky is as heavy duty as the twisty?


 
Right, if 170 vs 140 lumens for 10 sec is really that important to people, they can cancel their order and wait.

Back on topic, I would like to know how well it handles and how durable the clicky switch is compared to the twisty. Is this also "the light that gets you home"? It seems to be the main selling point for the twisty and we have seen lots of smash up testing. Anything like that for the clicky, Henry?


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## antiplex (Nov 26, 2008)

i igree with the previous 3 posters. the complaints seem not very mature to me and i bet henry at this point wishes he would never have allowed this to go public.
i'm happy for those few who got a 170lm and can make use of it. also i do like the fact that its not just the amount of money that decides who gets what.

henry has been very supportive here as we all know and i think he doesn't deserve this. he sellls even prototypes to the ones interested and of course there were a few 170ies. he could have also chaffed those once realizing not enough will make it to hit the market.

i would like to hear more about the clicky's switch and how durable it may be. i remember i had a flashlight with a clicky-like switch that after a while became very unreliable, probably due to corrosion. i'm sure the clicky will be far better with this though...

and of course my usual picking about the 2xAA-tube... when? where? how much? well, i guess i'll just put that into my sig


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## Splunk_Au (Nov 26, 2008)

turbodog said:


> I've updated my runtime measurements to include the twisty and cclicky proto.
> 
> See: http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?p=1157361#post1157361
> 
> Since the same battery was used for all tests there should be some comparative validity.


 
Those "runtimes" you did have to be the most ficticious ones I've seen!
Awesome work, I had a great laugh after reading them!


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## brucec (Nov 26, 2008)

Splunk_Au said:


> Those "runtimes" you did have to be the most ficticious ones I've seen!
> Awesome work, I had a great laugh after reading them!



Hey, I don't think there is any need to be condescending here. He is just reporting what he measured and obviously put some time and effort in for the benefit of this forum.


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## Splunk_Au (Nov 26, 2008)

Sorry, but with no proof/scientific measurement instruments provided or shown. I find it hard to discern real tests and something that's pulled outa thin air. The runtime numbers also do not show any coherent pattern from one to the other.


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## paxxus (Nov 26, 2008)

The switch mechanism in the Twisty is controlled by two exposed U-wires which then sends a signal to the electronics. In the Clicky a contact which isn't sensitive to the issues we've seen with the U-wires does the same. If anything the Clicky should be at least as reliable at the Twisty and significantly more reliable than other clicky flashlights where the switch itself (which then needs to be of a more complicated design) carries the drive current.

On the other hand we've seen that air (and thus presumably also moist) can enter the switch from the inside and cause the rubber to bulge, the Clicky might therefore be more sensitive to a flooded battery compartment than the Twisty. If the contact was completely sealed it would probably alleviate the tail stand issue as well as block moist and thus better prevent any tarnish of the internal switch components. Not that any other flashlight I know of (except perhaps the Twisty) is water proof from the inside, but this is HDS, the bar is already set high 

Edit: Well, a completely sealed contact would likely be a problem at different altitudes due to the permanently trapped air :shrug:


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## orcinus (Nov 26, 2008)

If you were to seal the switch into a separate, watertight compartment, you'd probably have problems pressing the boot as you'd have to compress a smaller volume of air to a greater (relative) pressure. And that's on top of the altitude change problems...


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## orcinus (Nov 26, 2008)

Splunk_Au said:


> Sorry, but with no proof/scientific measurement instruments provided or shown. I find it hard to discern real tests and something that's pulled outa thin air. The runtime numbers also do not show any coherent pattern from one to the other.



Well, then, you know what to do - do your own test and post the results! The more the merrier :twothumbs


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## turbodog (Nov 26, 2008)

Splunk_Au said:


> Sorry, but with no proof/scientific measurement instruments provided or shown. I find it hard to discern real tests and something that's pulled outa thin air. The runtime numbers also do not show any coherent pattern from one to the other.



Maybe you're just not intelligent enough to see it?

That scenario is much more likely.

The runtime data encompasses lights that were made years before you even registered here. The data clearly reflects the effects of more efficient emitters and circuitry as time has progressed.

But once again, I maintain that if anyone's talking out of their butt, it's you.


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## mikes1 (Nov 26, 2008)

turbodog said:


> But once again, I maintain that if anyone's talking out of their butt, it's you.





But true!


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## jojobos (Nov 26, 2008)

Splunk_Au,

I think this explains everything. Henry calibrates the output levels, and make sure the runtime is within the advertised spec. 



Hondo said:


> I'd just like to offer up a piece of borderline off-topic insight. Some may find it useless, others may already realize it, but some may find it enlightening. It has nothing to do with the offering of a 170 lumen model for pre-order, or how folks with $$ up front should feel, but:
> 
> There is a bit of an elephant in the room, which is those top performing emitters. They still exist in the lots of emitters being used for production. And Henry surely will not be discarding them. But as we all know, he will tune all lights to the advertised output levels. *So, what that means is that those emitters will now be putting out spec output with lower power consumption*, and will behave as "XR", or extended runtime, models. But Henry has decided not to add that feature to the model proliferation. So these overperformers, in the runtime domain, will be a bonus to those who get them. And distribution of this feature will be by as true a lottery as there is, dumb luck. Most, of course won't take the time to do runtime tests on their light to even know if they are at or near the high end of performance, since all lights will perform so very well, even at the minimum end of the spectrum.
> 
> Just thought I would throw that out there, sorry if it is not really much help to some.


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## mikes1 (Nov 26, 2008)

I for one am happy that I pre ordered a 170 cn yes I will be losing 30 lumens (is that really a big deal?) I did however save $50 I will still be getting an EDC light that is on the bleeding edge I frankly do not see a down side.
Please lets not have anymore of that auction talk if at some point the 170s become available I would rather pay a fair price set by Henry

Mike


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## Dead_Nuts (Nov 26, 2008)

BytorJr said:


> Ditto yaesumofo!!!!!!!!!!!! It's a flashlight folks....quit acting like it's like somebody attacking your kid sister.


I do not believe my last few posts reflect anything other than my own disappointment. I, at no time, attack Henry or his right to do for any individuals what he chooses to do. I have not threatened or demeaned anyone. I am still anxiously awaiting my Clicky. What's wrong with voicing my own opinion? I guess freedom of speech isn't as appreciated here as I thought it was.


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## tricker (Nov 26, 2008)

Dead_Nuts said:


> I do not believe my last few posts reflect anything other than my own disappointment. I, at no time, attack Henry or his right to do for any individuals what he chooses to do. I have not threatened or demeaned anyone. I am still anxiously awaiting my Clicky. What's wrong with voicing my own opinion? I guess freedom of speech isn't as appreciated here as I thought it was.




freedom of speech is appreciated....thats why they are allowed to disagree with you, i imagine all that agree with you are just sitting at there computer and feel no need to respond further


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## luxlover (Nov 26, 2008)

Dead_Nuts said:


> I do not believe my last few posts reflect anything other than my own disappointment. I, at no time, attack Henry or his right to do for any individuals what he chooses to do. I have not threatened or demeaned anyone. I am still anxiously awaiting my Clicky. What's wrong with voicing my own opinion? I guess freedom of speech isn't as appreciated here as I thought it was.


Freedom of speech is alive and well here in Brooklyn NYC.....as long as you agree with me! :devil: As we say in Brooklyn, "if I want your opinion, I'll give it to you!"

Seriously, say what you want and I will always listen. 

Jeff


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## luxlover (Nov 26, 2008)

tricker said:


> Freedom of speech is appreciated....that's why they are allowed to disagree with you. I imagine all who agree with you are just sitting at their computer and feel no need to respond further.


Profound statement. We all have a habit of jumping into action when we disagree with the opinion of others, rarely giving the poster a high five when we agree. I have been guilty of that "shortcoming", and will change my evil ways heretofore! :twothumbs

Jeff


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## matrixshaman (Nov 26, 2008)

brucec said:


> Right, if 170 vs 140 lumens for 10 sec is really that important to people, they can cancel their order and wait.
> 
> Back on topic, I would like to know how well it handles and how durable the clicky switch is compared to the twisty. Is this also "the light that gets you home"? It seems to be the main selling point for the twisty and we have seen lots of smash up testing. Anything like that for the clicky, Henry?



Well I'd say all of Henry's lights are based on that "light that gets you home" philosophy. It's got an improved system over the Novatac for holding the battery and keeping it from crushing or damage. IMO it's likely tougher than anything to date.


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## yotom (Nov 26, 2008)

High five, Dead_Nuts...They are just bollocking you to get the ´very special status´ of Dadof6:nana:
Really smart guys with a lastmanstanding attitude.

Like you mentioned before: a semi-free country, after all...

Sorry for being OT,

have fun,

Tom


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## Dead_Nuts (Nov 26, 2008)

tricker said:


> freedom of speech is appreciated....thats why they are allowed to disagree with you, i imagine all that agree with you are just sitting at there computer and feel no need to respond further


Perhaps 'freedom of speech' is going too far. I apologize, as I've never been made to feel that way on this site. 

I was responding to terms such as "crying" and "whining" and "not very mature". These, to me, are terms used to attack another person's position by belittling it. If you want to disagree and have a discussion about it -- great. Trying to cut off discussion by impuning the opposing point, is the tactic of a poor debater. 

I am not one of those people saying how fed up I am with Henry or calling him names or saying I will not buy his products ever again. In fact, I will probably pre-order products from him again in the future (as I have done with both Ra lights now). In retrospect, perhaps I should have just left it at "I'm disappointed" and moved on.

I'm disappointed.


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## tricker (Nov 26, 2008)

i mean i see no problem in your first post....if thats the way you feel more power to you....to be honest i was dissapointed that the 170 was marketed to a "special" consumer group......I mean when the arcs where sold on ebay many people where pissed, but no one really talks about it now....all things come to pass.....I would have loved it if the general public ,i.e. ME, would've had a chance at one of those lights.....I mean henry has one and atleast one other person.....Henry's explanation has more than enough to calm me as to why the 170's won't come to furition just yet.....Henry gave us all a chance to buy a proto-type...If i weren't a CPF member that would be unfair....but henry spends much time on here and has answered every e mail i have ever sent him within 1 day, there's some respect in that...and he backs his products( even if they wear a different brand name)....SO i still support him


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## orcinus (Nov 26, 2008)

tricker said:


> to be honest i was dissapointed that the 170 was marketed to a "special" consumer group......I mean when the arcs where sold on ebay many people where pissed, but no one really talks about it now....



I never really got that one...
If anything, that's the exact opposite of the situation you've described in the first (quoted) sentence - instead of giving a selected few an opportunity to buy the prototype Arc6's, it allowed anyone to get in on the auctions and buy one.

So it looks like no matter how you turn it - there'll always be someone feeling left out, ignored or hurt.


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## Kamakazikev24 (Nov 26, 2008)

This has most likely been answeared on here before but after much searching I cannot find the reason why the Twisty is advertised as having 120 lm + 1 hour runtime and the clicky 100 lm with 1 hour runtime. 
Would somone please enlighten me or give me a link where I can read up?

At the end of the day, I am having one of these lights as I need something that works when I need it to. I also think there great looking and will be proud to EDC one.


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## zenas (Nov 26, 2008)

Kamakazikev24 said:


> This has most likely been answeared on here before but after much searching I cannot find the reason why the Twisty is advertised as having 120 lm + 1 hour runtime and the clicky 100 lm with 1 hour runtime.
> Would somone please enlighten me or give me a link where I can read up?



It's not the Twisty in general which is rated at 120 lm for 1 hour, it is just the "special" 120 lm version of the Twisty (like the 170C "was" special for the Clicky). Standard versions for the Twisty include 85 Tr and 100 Tw. (which is equivalent to the 140C Clickys)


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## m16a (Nov 26, 2008)

Yay for the good news!!! :twothumbs


_USPS Shipping Info writes:_


> Shipment Accepted; November 26, 2008, 1:52 pm, MC CALLA, AL 35111


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## Kamakazikev24 (Nov 26, 2008)

zenas said:


> It's not the Twisty in general which is rated at 120 lm for 1 hour, it is just the "special" 120 lm version of the Twisty (like the 170C "was" special for the Clicky). Standard versions for the Twisty include 85 Tr and 100 Tw. (which is equivalent to the 140C Clickys)



Thanks for clearing that up!
Not long now! My Jetbeam Military is on it's way too, hopefuly have that by the end of the week.


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## SaturnNyne (Nov 27, 2008)

tricker said:


> i was dissapointed that the 170 was marketed to a "special" consumer group.


I don't think I understand what you're referring to here. It wasn't marketed to a special consumer group, it was marketed to everyone who wanted one. Then supply fell short of demand and there was no choice but to remove them from the production lineup. After that point, they were not marketed to anyone; so far, one person has one because of a fortunate circumstance. Others may also acquire one due to similar circumstances. I'm not seeing any marketing or picking of special groups here.



tricker said:


> . . . I would have loved it if the general public ,i.e. ME, would've had a chance at one of those lights...


As my Croat friend already said, in the situation you mention, you technically were given a chance at those lights, more of a chance than if it were just made a race, with the prize going to whoever was in the right place at the right time. You had all the time in the world to sell your worldly possessions and outbid the competition in an honest contest of supply and demand. And as it happens, the later ones sold for less than the set price of purchasing through the normal channels, so you were given the very best chance possible through that. That doesn't make it right, I'm not defending it, and I'm not saying it was entirely wrong either; I'm just pointing out that your complaint doesn't really hold up to the reality of what happened. If every one had been bid up far beyond the chosen set sale price, rather than sometimes coming in below, you'd have more of a point but it wouldn't change the fact that it was open to anyone committed enough and there was no element of luck or discrimination involved. Also, the reason it's not talked about anymore is because everyone who went through it is pretty sick of talking about it. It shouldn't necessarily be glossed over, but let's be careful about reviving it, especially in an inappropriate place to discuss it.



tricker said:


> I mean henry has one and atleast one other person...


Henry also has a remarkably fine mustache, that doesn't mean he's obliged to teach you how to grow one of equal quality. 



tricker said:


> Henry gave us all a chance to buy a proto-type...If i weren't a CPF member that would be unfair...


The fans of Henry's lights spread far beyond the bounds of just this forum, and none of them were excluded from buying any of his lights. CPF membership was never a requirement to buy one, this isn't even the only place they were offered for sale. There was nothing unfair about it.



tricker said:


> and he backs his products( even if they wear a different brand name)...


All of the lights backed by HDS wear the HDS brand. HDS Systems still exists, Ra is simply a dba (doing business as) marketing name they've chosen to use on the current products. Or, if you want to get literal about it, the HDS EDCs don't wear any brand name, they have only model info engraved on the side.





Dead_Nuts said:


> I was responding to terms such as "crying" and "whining" and "not very mature". These, to me, are terms used to attack another person's position by belittling it. If you want to disagree and have a discussion about it -- great. Trying to cut off discussion by impuning the opposing point, is the tactic of a poor debater.


Since a quick search shows that, aside from yaesu's signature, I'm the only one who used the word "cry," I feel I should respond to this; but, since I have trouble keeping anything brief, I'll pm you rather than waste everyone's time with it. In short, you have no need to defend yourself to me, I don't disagree with anything you've said, nothing I said had anything to do with your behavior at all, and the wording you take issue with was directed towards poor attitudes of living that are related to some of the styles of reaction exhibited here, not at any particular example. Also it was mostly just a bit of poking fun.


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## Kamakazikev24 (Nov 27, 2008)

Well after Reading that lot I'am not even going to comment. 

Can we get back on topic now please, Henrys sending some of these to the UK soon and My names on one of them!


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## SaturnNyne (Nov 27, 2008)

Kamakazikev24 said:


> Can we get back on topic now please, Henrys sending some of these to the UK soon and My names on one of them!


Agreed. I'd like to hear more from those who have received their ship notifications, and there's been a rather conspicuous dearth of usage reports and photos here. Will no one treat us to a comparison of beamshots, rather than just telling us what it's very similar to? Maybe outdoor shots? How does the larger size fit your hand? Does the switch feel like past models'? Is the click louder, softer? Anything. Someone must own one and be willing to ramble about it a little for our enjoyment. :candle:


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## Kamakazikev24 (Nov 27, 2008)

Or we could just say. REVIEWS! Please, LOL ;-)


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## Frank Maddix (Nov 27, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> Agreed. I'd like to hear more from those who have received their ship notifications, and there's been a rather conspicuous dearth of usage reports and photos here. Will no one treat us to a comparison of beamshots, rather than just telling us what it's very similar to? Maybe outdoor shots? How does the larger size fit your hand? Does the switch feel like past models'? Is the click louder, softer? Anything. Someone must own one and be willing to ramble about it a little for our enjoyment. :candle:


And on this topic... Is the button feel 'hard' or 'soft'? One big difference between my U60 and my Novatac 120P is that the Novatac button is much easier to press. I'd prefer this as I don't plan to take the light down to 66 feet (which is presumably the reason for the choice of a 'hard' button for the U60).


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## cave dave (Nov 27, 2008)

The 170c availability issue reminds me of the U85 and ActionLight III release. I think plenty of people pre-ordered those too. The AL III never did happen and only a handful of U85's ever made it to market. For instance only 12 U85's out of 660 EDCs posted ever showed up on the HDS registry. I'm certainly glad I didn't pay to get one, my SSC modded B42 is brighter!

Considering the Ra Clicky Poll showed the 120 (aka 170) model to be more popular by a 3 to 1 ratio I would imagine that would create a huge supply demand problem if only a handful of 120/170s could be made.


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## BytorJr (Nov 27, 2008)

Dead Nuts, 

I was not trying to single you out; so sorry if you took it that way. My point is, I cannot understand for the life of me, why people are getting so bent out of shape of a loss of 30lm. Disappointed, okay; but this is a flashlight folks, an inanimate object. It seems like some people are so highly disappointed it appears that their life is over now that it's not 170lm and only 140lm max. When one gets themselves so wrapped around a single thing, massive disappointment is bound to follow.

I have to believe that there are more important things in life than these flashlights - speaking for myself that is. It's just kind of sad to see people get so up in arms about this. But alas, I'll go back in my hole for a few more months.


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## Enzo Morocioli (Nov 27, 2008)

Lets not forget to be thankful for the fact that we get .07lm now!!
That's one visual step lower than .08lm; Extended runtime, and better night-vision preservation. :tinfoil:


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## carl (Nov 27, 2008)

+1 to Bytor's post. Sometimes I really get "into" some new gadget and eventually get disappointed by its price, new design bugs, etc.. I'll find myself furiously typing on the computer late at night on some forum somewhere. Then I have to remind myself of the bigger picture of life in this world. If I don't catch myself, eventually, my wife will.


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## tricker (Nov 27, 2008)

nevermind


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## Haz (Nov 27, 2008)

I'm dying to see more reviews of this light!. For those who have it already, are you enjoying it too much that you don't have time to post pictures and reviews?.


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## SaturnNyne (Nov 28, 2008)

Enzo Morocioli said:


> Lets not forget to be thankful for the fact that we get .07lm now!!
> That's one visual step lower than .08lm


I agree that dimmer is better and extremely valuable, but you have to remember we're talking about completely different output ranges with no shared levels, not just a downward shift along the same scale. One visual step, or half an f-stop, lower would be about 0.06lm, since there's a 1.4:1 ratio between each step. So 0.07 would be about half a visual step lower(?) and just barely discernible. But still good.


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## Enzo Morocioli (Nov 28, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> One visual step, or half an f-stop, lower would be about 0.06lm, since there's a 1.4:1 ratio between each step. So 0.07 would be about half a visual step lower(?) and just barely discernible. But still good.



0.080, 0.057
0.070, 0.050

That's true, looks like 0.07 isn't a step down from 0.08. 

Still.. I'm all about "how low can you go?"... That gives me reason to celebrate 0.07lm. My 85Tr will bottom out at 0.08lm, while the Clicky will use the other scale.


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## cave dave (Nov 28, 2008)

Was there a cutaway diagram of the Ra Clicky ever posted? I'll take one of the Twisty too. I think engineering drawings are cool.


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## Enzo Morocioli (Nov 28, 2008)

cave dave said:


> Was there a cutaway diagram of the Ra Clicky ever posted? I'll take one of the Twisty too. I think engineering drawings are cool.



http://www.ralights.com/?id=ClickyDetails

http://www.ralights.com/?id=TwistyDetails


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## Kamakazikev24 (Nov 28, 2008)

The pic on here of the Ra clicky with a spring and a battery, is that a production model?
So is there a spring that can fall out when changing batterys?
Thanks. Kam.


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## Enzo Morocioli (Nov 28, 2008)

Kamakazikev24 said:


> The pic on here of the Ra clicky with a spring and a battery, is that a production model?
> So is there a spring that can fall out when changing batterys?
> Thanks. Kam.



No, the Ra Clicky Prototype is that which contains a spring. 

The production Ra Clicky does not have a spring, but rather a metal strip that runs the length of the battery tube and protrudes a bit in order to make contact with the head.


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## Dead_Nuts (Nov 28, 2008)

Off Topic for just a second, please. Then I, too, want to hear more from those with lights in hand.

Since some have addressed me here and in PMs, I want to say that 'I'm OK now!'. I think my posts were in with some others from folks who were seriously pi$$ed about how things were dealt with. My life has far too much drama of it's own to let the changing of a flashlight's specs send me off the deep end. So, just for the record -- no one has offended me here and I hope I have not done so. This place is great and so are most all the people here.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled thread; already in progress.


----------



## Kamakazikev24 (Nov 28, 2008)

Dead Nuts...:thumbsup:

Anyone know if selfbuilt is getting one of these for a review?

Oh an Enzo, Thanks for the info!


----------



## luxlover (Nov 28, 2008)

Kamakazikev24 said:


> Dead Nuts...:thumbsup:
> 
> Anyone know if selfbuilt is getting one of these for a review?
> 
> Oh an Enzo, Thanks for the info!


Good question Kamakazi! How about ViReN, who has done very expert reviews here?..... http://www.cpfreviews.com

Even Playboy and Penthouse magazines don't exhibit sexy photos like ViReN! I wonder if he airbrushes his lights before his photography? :thinking:

Jeff


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## SaturnNyne (Nov 28, 2008)

Kamakazikev24 said:


> The pic on here of the Ra clicky with a spring and a battery, is that a production model?
> So is there a spring that can fall out when changing batterys?
> Thanks. Kam.


Hey Kam, since I sent you over here for production model photos this morning, I guess I should follow up with which photos are production, in case you haven't already figured it out for yourself. Grillmasterp's photos of the production light are seen here, here, here, and here. Sorry I didn't take the time earlier to link you straight to them in the first place.




Dead_Nuts said:


> Since some have addressed me here and in PMs, I want to say that 'I'm OK now!'.


:thumbsup::grouphug:



luxlover said:


> How about ViReN, who has done very expert reviews here?..... http://www.cpfreviews.com


I'd kinda like to see lights sent to some of our top reviewers too, just like old times with FLR. However, I kind of wonder if manufacturers might feel it's no longer as valuable as it once was to send out review lights, now that so many "regular" customers on this forum have become so professional in their reviewing and blurred the line between an amateur and a "pro" review. As for the rest of your commentary... didn't you already use that joke last week, Jeff? I'm sure a cultured gentleman such as yourself has other standards of fine photography with which to compare and contrast. 




cave dave said:


> Kid, familiarize yourself with the constrictor knot. It's actually super easy to tie on a closed loop as well but I really can't explain how.


Also, Dave, while looking through the thread for the photos I came back upon this post and remembered that I owe you a thank you for that. I've been making use of the constrictor knot—in place of my usual slipknot with stopper—since you pointed it out, and I'm pretty sure it's not the first valuable trick you've taught me. Keep up the good work!


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## luxlover (Nov 30, 2008)

I received my 140C yesterday. Many pictures to follow, today. Willing to take requests for "exotic" poses. Sorry, I don't have an airbrush to enhance their appearance!  

Jeff


----------



## zenas (Nov 30, 2008)

Jeff, hurry up  We need your pictures, we need your infos, we need your observations!!! 

Exotic poses? (not really exotic, but I think these may be interesting)

--> standing on a table, bezel down, set to 100 lm (dark room  )
--> different beamshots of low, med, high, boost 
--> close up pictures of the wire embedded in the battery tube
--> close up of the different threads
--> close up of the knurling and anodizing (maybe close up of some "bare" spots, if you find some)
--> emitter / reflector close up
--> battery contact springs close up (and attachment / soldering)

I think that's all for the moment 

And don't forget to tell us about your "feeling" - this special "clicky feeling" *ooooooohhhhmmmmmmmmm* 

One last thing (in advance): THANKS JEFF!!! :bow:


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## tebore (Nov 30, 2008)

luxlover said:


> I received my 140C yesterday. Many pictures to follow, today. Willing to take requests for "exotic" poses. Sorry, I don't have an airbrush to enhance their appearance!
> 
> Jeff



Pic of you taking a bath with the clicky "testing" it's waterproofness.


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## luxlover (Nov 30, 2008)

tebore said:


> Pic of you taking a bath with the Clicky "testing" it's waterproofness.


Your wish is my command. I will have to blur out the _non-family oriented _aspects of the shot, but my Clicky has already experienced a relaxing bubble bath in my kitchen sink. 

Jeff


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## :)> (Nov 30, 2008)

I just threw up in my mouth at the thought of luxlover taking a bath with his Clicky:sick2::shakehead

:nana:

Please don't do it

Luxlover, do you have a Twisty yet?


----------



## luxlover (Nov 30, 2008)

:)> said:


> I just threw up in my mouth at the thought of luxlover taking a bath with his Clicky. :sick2::shakehead
> 
> :nana:
> 
> ...


Sorry for the horrible mental image I elicited. How about I take a shot of my Clicky taking a bubble bath with my rubber ducky? You are right, I shouldn't think of ruining the sterling reputation of my new light. 

Yes Sir, I most certainly do have a Ra Twisty. She is a 100Tw #2240. Should I take a picture of her taking a bath, too....without me? :devil:

Jeff


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## :)> (Nov 30, 2008)

A couples shot would be splendid

I am very interested in hearing your impressions on the Clicky. I haven't ordered yet because I don't want to wait for delivery, but I fully plan on getting a couple.


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## luxlover (Nov 30, 2008)

:)> said:


> A couples shot would be splendid.
> 
> I am very interested in hearing your impressions on the Clicky. I haven't ordered yet because I don't want to wait for delivery, but I fully plan on getting a couple.


*Oh, you nasty boy! :shakehead

*Impressions will accompany my pictorial extravaganza.

Jeff


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## Kamakazikev24 (Nov 30, 2008)

Could someone with a production light measure the circumference
of the thread on the battery holder? My idea is to maybe put a thin circlip over the thread so I have the two holes to attach a lanyard until the clips come. 
I would hate to lose it when I get it!


----------



## luxlover (Nov 30, 2008)

Kamakazikev24 said:


> Could someone with a production light measure the circumference
> of the thread on the battery holder? My idea is to maybe put a thin circlip over the thread so I have the two holes to attach a lanyard until the clips come.
> I would hate to lose it when I get it!


OK, diameter of threads = 0.92" (23.37mm)
C = pi x diameter
pi x 0.92" = 3.1416 x 0.92" = *2.89"* (73.41mm)


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## luxlover (Nov 30, 2008)

The first set of pictures will be full body shots, with lighting coming from different directions. Believe it or not, my light source was my Ra Twisty held in my hands, with my Canon PowerShot A620 7.1Mpixel Digital Camera resting on a Samsonite tripod. Please excuse the dust and other particles on my formica table, picked up by the camera. Look at the beautiful subject.....


----------



## tebore (Nov 30, 2008)

Nice pics! But I don't see any bathtime pics.


----------



## NoFair (Nov 30, 2008)

Nice pics Jeff. :thumbsup:

Anyone of the reflector/led? 

Still on the fence since I'm not sure how much better it can be than my modded HDS... 

Sverre


----------



## Enzo Morocioli (Nov 30, 2008)

looks like Jeff's Clicky shouldn't have any problems tailstanding.


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## karlthev (Nov 30, 2008)

Enzo Morocioli said:


> looks like Jeff's Clicky shouldn't have any problems tailstanding.



I can't speak for his but, on mine the tailstand is wobbly. The rubber grommet protrudes just enough so that the light won't stand straight. You can't see this fact in these pictures.


Karl


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## luxlover (Nov 30, 2008)

tebore said:


> Nice pics! But I don't see any bathtime pics.


Bathtime is once a month, whether they need it of not!


----------



## luxlover (Nov 30, 2008)

NoFair said:


> Nice pics Jeff. :thumbsup:
> 
> Anyone of the reflector/led?
> 
> ...


I took a frontal shot of the reflector to demonstrate the orange peel texture, but it is not a good shot of the Seoul P4 emitter. I will post more shots very shortly. Stay onthe fence for now, and don't fall off. Be a cautious shopper and thorughly evaluate the Clicky compared to your Seoulmated HDS light. I have more pictures to post.


----------



## Daniel_sk (Nov 30, 2008)

Can you please take pictures of the inside? Thanks :twothumbs.


----------



## Kamakazikev24 (Nov 30, 2008)

Your a top man! Best pics so far, and thanks for the info. 
Now you gotta get inside it 

Be nice to have a clip to block those holes up, are they threaded? And do they go all the way though, sorry for all the Q's but you got and I ain't!


----------



## luxlover (Nov 30, 2008)

Enzo Morocioli said:


> looks like Jeff's Clicky shouldn't have any problems tailstanding.


Sam,
Regretably, I must admit that with a cell deployed, my light has a slight wobble until it stabilizes. I am sure that Henry will want to know about each of us who detects a wobble in their light. The funny thing is that the light without a cell sits perfectly flat. I assure everybody that the light WILL NOT topple over.

Back to my picture posting.....


----------



## luxlover (Nov 30, 2008)

Kamakazikev24 said:


> Your a top man! Best pics so far, and thanks for the info.
> Now you gotta get inside it
> 
> Be nice to have a clip to block those holes up, are they threaded? And do they go all the way through. Sorry for all the Q's, but you got and I ain't!


Thank you. I realize that I need more lighting experience.

Don't you worry about the inside of the light. Luxlover is in the house. More pictures are on the way.....

Sorry I missed your mounting hole question.....
That is an ideal way to fill those ugly holes. Yes, they are threaded, but the light couldn't remain waterproof if they were through-holes. They are blind holes that stop "somewhere" inside.

I like the Q's, because I have A's for all of your curious boys and girls.

I am loving this light more and more with every post I write and with every shot I take.

Brace yourself for the rest of my shots.....


----------



## luxlover (Nov 30, 2008)

Daniel_sk said:


> Can you please take pictures of the inside? Thanks :twothumbs.


Coming right up. Would you like a side of fries and a shake with that order?


----------



## Kid9P (Nov 30, 2008)

Cool pics Jeff.

I was actually expecting the HDS to be on a plate surrounded by some sort of food


----------



## luxlover (Nov 30, 2008)

Kid9P said:


> Cool pics Jeff.
> 
> I was actually expecting the HDS to be on a plate surrounded by some sort of food.


That can be arranged, Sir. What kind of cuisine would you like? Luxlover is a mean cook, too.


----------



## luxlover (Nov 30, 2008)

Packing material. The tool in the small bag is a P51 Military Style Can Opener, compliments of Russtang. The goop in the bag with the o-ring is Henry's supplied aerospace grease. Note the credit card sized Quick Reference Guide. Don't leave home without it!






Shot of the pocket clip's two mounting holes.





Shot of the flatness of the endcap boot, without the battery installed.





Close-up shot, demonstrating the flatness of the endcap boot without a battery installed.





Shot of the light tailstanding flat, without the battery installed.





Close-up of the knurling pattern.





Internal shot of the battery case, to demonstrate the HAIII finish at the top end and the sense signal wire's position at the top end.





Shot inside the head to demonstrate the HAIII finish of the o-ring's mating surface, the bare aluminum threads, the positive battery spring and plate components and the new/simplified light module's pc board. Notice the bumper that is in position inside the spring, to limit spring compression in a front end impact. This is not to be confused with the "rubber baby buggy bumper" in the NovaTac lights. Negative power from the battery is transmitted through the battery case's threads to the threads in the head.





A little better shot of the head.





Shots of the battery case end, with the sense wire protruding above the top.





Notice how robust are the threads!!!





Another view of the sense wire protruding above the top.





Notice the horizontal cutout, to keep the sense wire in place and protruding above the top.





A somewhat washed out shot of the battery case's full length cutout within which the sense wire runs. Notice how the cutout disappears at the bottom. This wire MUST be attached to the switch assembly within the endcap. It transfers a small electrical signal when the button is pressed, and carries that signal to the light module in the head. The wire touches the outer solder track as seen in the two internal head shots above. The microprocessor in the light module interprets the presses into the actions programmed at the factory or customized by the user. Keep in mind that the same spring/plate components are situated at the bottom of the battery case as are seen in the head. I am NOT sure if the bumper also exists within the spring.





Shot of the reflector's orange peel texture, with an insufficient view of the Seoul P4 emitter. I owe you a better shot of the emitter. It is not easy illuminating the emitter without getting some of the light reflected back into the camera lens.





Close-up of the snazzy laser etching.





Zenas made a request for some specific shots in post #397. I will work on them.


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## zenas (Nov 30, 2008)

luxlover said:


> Zenas made a request for some specific shots in post #397. I will work on them.



Jeff, you are gorgeous!!! Nice work so far (you've already filled half of my request ) - nice photos, first nice comments! Keep your nice work going Jeff :twothumbs


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## luxlover (Nov 30, 2008)

I made a discovery that will make using this light much more efficient. It will help increase runtime. Let's say that I want to have the ability to use burst mode (level 23) although rarely, and use the 100lm high level most of the time. I found that once in burst mode, when I intercept the ten second timeout by doing a _press-release_, the light drops to 100lm and stays there until I press the button again. From there, when doing a _press-hold_, the light returns to burst mode until I release the button, or ten seconds comes first. When I release the button, the light drops to 100lm. Finally, when I want to latch burst mode, I do a _click-press-release_. With these steps, the user is in full control of all the variations of burst mode. Has anybody discovered these perks?

*Edit:*
*My apologies to SaturnNyne for forgetting to mention that he had discussed this feature with Henry a long time ago, and that there was no decision made at that time to incorporate it into the Clicky. I discovered the feature, but Saturn thought of it and could have been the spark that Henry needed to include it into the programming!!!!! Only Henry can confirm this.


*


----------



## cave dave (Nov 30, 2008)

What is the sense wire rubbing against? Circuit board trace?
I'm worried it will wear through it over time. I had that happen on a Fenix and lost high mode.


----------



## HDS_Systems (Nov 30, 2008)

LuxLover,

Congratulations on finding a new undocumented feature.

Henry.


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## luxlover (Nov 30, 2008)

cave dave said:


> What is the sense wire rubbing against? Circuit board trace?
> I'm worried it will wear through it over time. I had that happen on a Fenix and lost high mode.


Yes it is rubbing against the solder trace in the light module. I can assure you that with the slight amount of pressure needed for me to fully compress that bent wire with a finger, it will not wear through the trace. The pressure is enough to just make contact, in order for the small sense signal to be read by the electronics.

Note that the light must draw a slight amount of energy from the battery when it is OFF, in order for the button to be active as soon as you press it. This is NOT an alternating/latching switch. It is more like a momentary switch. But Henry has assured us that the amount of battery capacity expended by this process, is smaller than the self discharge rate of a battery, and that is very very small.


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## luxlover (Nov 30, 2008)

HDS_Systems said:


> LuxLover,
> Congratulations on finding a new undocumented feature.
> 
> Henry


Henry,
Does this make ME look good, or make YOU look bad? :nana: How about you document it, now that *WE* have found it? 

Jeff


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## luxlover (Nov 30, 2008)

zenas said:


> Jeff, you are gorgeous!!! Nice work so far (you've already filled half of my request ) - nice photos, first nice comments! Keep your nice work going Jeff :twothumbs


Handsome, yes..... gorgeous, once in a while! 

Thank you. It was work, but I love to showcase a light that I believe is great. Give me a day to complete the rest of YOUR "mission."

My future plans are:
1. luxmeter reading @ one meter, of my 100Tw Twisty and the Clicky both at the 100lm levels, and a reading of the Clicky at burst mode. I will have to be very quick at burst mode. I will have only ten seconds to align the light to the sensor and read meter.
2. beamshot of both the Clicky and Twisty at the 100lm level.
3. beamshot of both the Clicky and Twisty at the low preset of 0.3lm.
4. Runtime of the Clicky, without water cooling or hand cooling, at the 100lm level. This will require me to assign level 22 to high for the test. Let's see just how minimum one hour ends up to be for the light! I will be using an AW protected 750mAH R123 cell and a luxmeter to confirm that the end of test reading is 1/2 the start of test reading.

I am sure that I will think of more things to do.

Jeff


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## m16a (Nov 30, 2008)

luxlover said:


> I made a discovery that will make using this light much more efficient. It will help increase runtime. Let's say that I want to have the ability to use burst mode (level 23) although rarely, and use the 100lm high level most of the time. I found that once in burst mode, when I intercept the ten second timeout by doing a _press-release_, the light drops to 100lm and stays there until I press the button again. From there, when doing a _press-hold_, the light returns to burst mode until I release the button, or ten seconds comes first. When I release the button, the light drops to 100lm. Finally, when I want to latch burst mode, I do a _click-press-release_. With these steps, the user is in full control of all the variations of burst mode. Has anybody discovered these perks?
> 
> *Edit:*
> *My apologies to SaturnNyne for forgetting to mention that he had discussed this feature with Henry a long time ago, and that there was no decision made at that time to incorporate it into the Clicky. I discovered the feature, but Saturn thought of it and could have been the spark that Henry needed to include it into the programming!!!!! Only Henry can confirm this.
> ...



Jeff, 

Commendations on finding this excellent feature. It confirms my usage of level 23 acting as two levels. Also, excellent and informative pictures. Thanks for all the public service! :twothumbs

Jason


----------



## luxlover (Nov 30, 2008)

m16a said:


> Jeff,
> 
> Commendations on finding this excellent feature. It confirms my usage of level 23 acting as two levels. Also, excellent and informative pictures. Thanks for all the public service! :twothumbs
> 
> Jason


Did you tell all the boys and girls that we received our lights within three hours of each other this Saturday? What are your comments on your first Henry light?


----------



## m16a (Nov 30, 2008)

luxlover said:


> Did you tell all the boys and girls that we received our lights within three hours of each other this Saturday? What are your comments on your first Henry light?



I neglected to mention that fact to the adoring crowd! As to my thoughts on my first HDS light, I have quite a few things to say.



Top notch build quality. I have NEVER seen quality this good. Not in surefire, not in Nitecore, not in any light ever.
Beam is amazing. The beam is flawless and artifact free, the throw is quite good for a Seoul light, and the hotspot is quite large, making the it by far my most useful light.
The customization and features are insane. The amount of versatility in one light is astounding to me. I already wonder how I survived without a light as versatile as the Ra Clicky.
4 levels=all bases covered. 4 levels gives you the option to have all your needs covered. I have an ultra low (0.14lm) for night vision usage, an all around secondary (8.8lm) which is perfect for indoors and dark ceiling bounce usage, outside usage primary (51lm) and high mode set to Level 23, which can be used as two levels (140/100) for those times where a high powered burst of light is needed.
The options in the option menu really make the light. The fact that you can set an auto shut off, a locator beacon, or a button lock makes the light so enjoyable to use.
Take it as you wish, but those are the thoughts of a first time HDS user on the Ra Clicky 140C light. Thanks to Jeff for convincing me to buy it, and thanks to Henry for the amazing product! :twothumbs


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## Haz (Nov 30, 2008)

This is the best comments for a light, i've seen for a long time!!!




m16a said:


> I neglected to mention that fact to the adoring crowd! As to my thoughts on my first HDS light, I have quite a few things to say.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## SaturnNyne (Nov 30, 2008)

Hey Jeff, great photos. I notice in your internal head shots there's what appears to be a spot of color on the board which looks to be blue to me. Does it appear to be the color coding splotch like on the Twisty, except using a new color for some reason?

m16a: Very nice comments. I see my predictions are already coming true for you, your thoughts on the light mirror mine quite closely. It sounds like you've already discovered, as I did long ago, that four seems to be a sort of magic number of versatility for levels on a general purpose light. Of course that varies by user and uses.


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## luxlover (Dec 1, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> Hey Jeff, great photos. I notice in your internal head shots there's what appears to be a spot of color on the board which looks to be blue to me. Does it appear to be the color coding splotch like on the Twisty, except using a new color for some reason?


Your observational skills are impressive. Indeed, the smear of blue is indicative of something. I would say a 140C, if I had to take a wild guess! :naughty:


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## HDS_Systems (Dec 1, 2008)

Cave Dave,

The trace the wire is rubbing on has a thick nickel plate that forms a robust contact. It will wear for a long time given the slight pressure exerted by the signal wire.

LuxLover,

Our runtimes are based on using Duracell primary batteries. Use of other batteries will result in different runtimes, depending on the relative capacities of those batteries at particular current drains. Rechargeable batteries tend to equal or exceed primary cells at high output levels but provide much less capacity at lower output levels. But since you can swap rechargeable batteries each night or once a week, depending on usage, their potentially lower capacity at lower settings is rarely a problem.

M16a,

Thanks for the complements.

SaturnNyne,

Blue is used for 140 lumens, black is for 170. White in combination with another color is used for GT.

Henry.


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## SaturnNyne (Dec 1, 2008)

Thanks for the color code info, Henry. I'm glad to see that the splotches are bolder and more noticeable than before. Also glad there will be a GT code to remove any doubt.


----------



## Kamakazikev24 (Dec 1, 2008)

Nice light Henry! It looks really nice and from the feedback seems to have a good and useful UI. 
Are you pleased with it?

Can you confirm that you will be sending stock to the UK this week?
Thanks. Kam.


----------



## zenas (Dec 1, 2008)

I'm waiting for Clickys being in stock in the UK, too... :mecry:
I've read the user an customization guide again and I've one question:

Tripple-click brings you directly to the low setting. Ok, no problem.
If you enable the button lock feature, you can lock your flashlight when it's turned off making a tripple-click. Ok, still not a problem.
But (to quote the custimaziation guide):

_"Your flashlight will turn off when you lock the button and will turn on when you unlock the button. When the button is locked and you press on the button, your flashlight will blink 3 times to indicate the button is locked and then turn off."_

Does this mean, when I make a tripple-click, during using my Clicky, the button gets locked and the flashlight turns off? I mean, will I loose the "low" setting if I enable the button lock feature?


----------



## paxxus (Dec 1, 2008)

Nice pics luxlover! Congratulations with your new light. Could we have a picture taken directly into the front end - I'd like to see how well the emitter is centered.


----------



## sledhead (Dec 1, 2008)

M16a and LuxLover: Do either of your lights tailstand without wobbling?

They are great photos. Thanks for taking the time:thumbsup:


----------



## Kamakazikev24 (Dec 1, 2008)

sledhead said:


> M16a and LuxLover: Do either of your lights tailstand without wobbling?
> 
> They are great photos. Thanks for taking the time:thumbsup:



If you take the time to read LuxLovers posts you would know!
I don't mean to be rude but if he is prepared to take the time to upload all the pics we have all been waiting for and his comments too, the least you could do is make the effort to read them!


----------



## karlthev (Dec 1, 2008)

This *is *rude.:thumbsdow Lux has taken a considerable amount of time to take the pictures and post many comments however, this thread has become a book with an incredible amount of information--much of which is not specific to technical aspects of this light. Attempting to glean through each and every comment is time consuming at best. 



Karl


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## luxlover (Dec 1, 2008)

HDS_Systems said:


> LuxLover,
> Our runtimes are based on using Duracell primary batteries. Use of other batteries will result in different runtimes, depending on the relative capacities of those batteries at particular current drains. Rechargeable batteries tend to equal or exceed primary cells at high output levels but provide much less capacity at lower output levels. But since you can swap rechargeable batteries each night or once a week, depending on usage, their potentially lower capacity at lower settings is rarely a problem.
> Henry.


Henry,
We go back a long way, you adoring Duracell DL123s and I adoring my BS blue/yellow R123s, my MP R123s and my AW R123. I have the highest level of confidence that my _free-lumens_ solution will meet or exceed the _minimum of one hour _spec. rendered by the Duracell.


----------



## luxlover (Dec 1, 2008)

zenas said:


> I'm waiting for Clickys being in stock in the UK, too... :mecry:
> I've read the user an customization guide again and I've one question:
> 
> Triple-click brings you directly to the low setting. Ok, no problem.
> ...


When the Button Lock feature is enabled in the Options Menu, the button can be locked and unlocked with a triple click.....BUT ONLY FROM THE OFF POSITION. A triple click while the light is ON will get you to your low level.


----------



## luxlover (Dec 1, 2008)

paxxus said:


> Nice pics luxlover! Congratulations with your new light. Could we have a picture taken directly into the front end - I'd like to see how well the emitter is centered.


Thank you.....and thank you again!

I can tell you that it is perfectly centered. I will continue trying to get an effective shot showing this. But I have to figure out how to get light directed onto the emitter and not have it reflected back into the camera's lens.


----------



## sledhead (Dec 1, 2008)

Kamakazikev24: I'll try harder next time. Have a nice day!


----------



## luxlover (Dec 1, 2008)

sledhead said:


> M16a and LuxLover: Do either of your lights tailstand without wobbling?
> 
> They are great photos. Thanks for taking the time. :thumbsup:


My light has a slight wobbling problem when a battery is installed, and none without a battery. I am working on a fix for this now. Try this.....
When mating head to case, press the endbutton sideways as if trying to pinch it against the side of the housing, while applying pressure inward. Keep holding until the parts are fully engaged. I think that this evacuates more trapped air than just pressing on the button at it's center. The button still bows outward a little, but once I place it in tailstand position and press down on it, it seems to stay flat on the table.

Thank you. I enjoy taking pictures for my own education, as well as for all of yours.

Jeff


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## grateful1 (Dec 1, 2008)

Has the second batch of lights gone out?

Lux...very nice! :twothumbs


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## tebore (Dec 1, 2008)

luxlover said:


> Thank you.....and thank you again!
> 
> I can tell you that it is perfectly centered. I will continue trying to get an effective shot showing this. But I have to figure out how to get light directed onto the emitter and not have it reflected back into the camera's lens.



This is where a tripod, and a good manual mode comes in handy. If your camera lacks a good manual mode then it's time for looking into a new hobby which complements all others very well. SLR Cameras!!!! If you thought flashlights killed the wallet you better hang on tight.


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## luxlover (Dec 1, 2008)

grateful1 said:


> Has the second batch of lights gone out?
> 
> Lux...very nice! :twothumbs


Thank you, but it is the light that is "very nice." I am just the messenger of good vibes!

Better call the dealer you have chosen for your purchase. So far, there has been no large volume shipment from Henry to my dealer Unique Titanium. I hope that he picks up speed for all of those $180 - $230 _stocking stuffer_ lights!


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## luxlover (Dec 1, 2008)

tebore said:


> This is where a tripod, and a good manual mode comes in handy. If your camera lacks a good manual mode then it's time for looking into a new hobby which complements all others very well. SLR Cameras!!!! If you thought flashlights killed the wallet you better hang on tight.


I used a tripod for some of my shots, but I was on Auto Mode. I will surely attempt a tripod + manual override procedure tonight for the emitter's money shot. SLR digital huh? As we say in Crooklyn New Yawk....."fugetaboutit!" Does a Canon A620 7.1Mpixel jobby have a "good manual mode?"

I am very green behind the gills in the matter of _lighting the subject_. Can you give me some pointers in a pm?

Jeff


----------



## Dead_Nuts (Dec 1, 2008)

grateful1 said:


> Has the second batch of lights gone out?



BS informed me today that my light would be "in the next shipping", but added " [FONT=&quot]Probably about 2 weeks." 

It is what it is.[/FONT]


----------



## gottawearshades (Dec 1, 2008)

Mind if I ask when you ordered?



Dead_Nuts said:


> BS informed me today that my light would be "in the next shipping", but added " [FONT=&quot]Probably about 2 weeks."
> 
> It is what it is.[/FONT]


----------



## m16a (Dec 1, 2008)

luxlover said:


> My light has a slight wobbling problem when a battery is installed, and none without a battery. I am working on a fix for this now. Try this.....
> When mating head to case, press the endbutton sideways as if trying to pinch it against the side of the housing, while applying pressure inward. Keep holding until the parts are fully engaged. I think that this evacuates more trapped air than just pressing on the button at it's center. The button still bows outward a little, but once I place it in tailstand position and press down on it, it seems to stay flat on the table.
> 
> Thank you. I enjoy taking pictures for my own education, as well as for all of yours.
> ...



In case anyone is wondering, I just tried this trick out and it appears to work perfectly. The button protrudes slightly, but isn't enough to affect the slight inward slope of the light wall around the tailcap on which the light tailstands. Only time will tell if this is a longer term fix, but it is an excellent fix for the time being! :thumbsup:


----------



## Dead_Nuts (Dec 1, 2008)

gottawearshades said:


> Mind if I ask when you ordered?


Not sure exactly, but it was late July something.


----------



## grateful1 (Dec 1, 2008)

Dead_Nuts said:


> BS informed me today that my light would be "in the next shipping", but added " [FONT=&quot]Probably about 2 weeks." [/FONT]
> 
> [FONT=&quot]It is what it is.[/FONT]


 
That sounds like the 3rd shipment as the second is suppose to be in last week or this. Hmmmmm.

Yea...I missed the second shipping, but it looks like I'm in on the 3rd!!!!


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## HDS_Systems (Dec 1, 2008)

Zenas,

The button is only locked and unlocked when the flashlight is turned off. Per the manual:

"When the Button Lock feature is enabled and your flashlight is turned *off*, a triple-click will toggle the button lock" ...

The reason the notation in the following paragraph talks about turning the light off when the button is locked is because three is an odd number and three clicks from off would normally just turn the light on - on with the first click, off with the second and back on with the third. If the light remained on when the button was locked, it would be impossible to do anything further. Thus, the light turns off when the button is locked.

The triple-click used to get to the low brightness setting can only be accessed after your flashlight is turned on.

Henry.


----------



## SaturnNyne (Dec 2, 2008)

luxlover said:


> Does a Canon A620 7.1Mpixel jobby have a "good manual mode?"


Yes, it does. Full manual. But on to more important business...


My 140Cgt arrived yesterday! Here are my quick first impressions of it:


It feels very solid. Twisty is solid too, but Clicky does have noticeable additional heft.


Mine tailstands quite well. It wobbles a little, but not nearly as much as my B42, not enough to actually see it leaning.


Anodize does have noticeable bare spots down in the grooves. You can see them even when not flash photographing it, but I wouldn't say they're really blatant if you're not closely examining it. It just looks like an occasional speck of dust when the light hits it.


Size is exactly what I expected, a perfect fit to my hand, with the edge of the bezel aligned with one edge and the switch with the other. It feels good in the hand.


Cigar grip is much improved by the slightly longer tail and more pronounced waist.


Switch is basically the same as past models, but feels a little sturdier when pressed. The click sounds different and might be a little more pronounced/defined, but it actually seems to be just slightly quieter than my 120P and B42.


Beam is much like 120P's, as expected. Smooth and floody, very nice. I can't decide if the spot is slightly more focused or not...


The reflector appears to have a subtle circle about 1cm above the emitter. I'm not absolutely certain it's not an illusion created by the reflection of the LED, but it's quite apparent from many angles. This can be seen in one of the photos to follow.


Burst is nice and bright, dropoff is noticeable but not dramatic. The burst kickdown that Jeff mentioned works perfectly and I've already used it quite a few times. Burst is actually quite helpful, more noticeable than expected. It's not huge, but it is handy; it does allow you to see at a distance just a little be more easily, though I doubt the difference would ever be so great that it would be truly critical. It just adds a touch more clarity.


The GT tint is warmer than I expected. It's considerably warmer than on my B42XRGT, but not as warm as my M60-Q5 and K2TFFC T1. Just slightly to the warm side of neutral. When compared side to side, I think the old GT looks slightly pinkish and the new GT slightly greenish (almost everything has some kind of leaning, however small, so this is not a criticism, it's very nice), but when used alone the Cgt immediately feels natural and my eyes take no time to accept it as pure white. (This is in contrast to my 120P's greenish tint, which I never was able to completely acclimate to.) Color rendition, three dimensionality, and object definition are excellent and it appears to be a great outdoor tint. I haven't used it enough to say anything definite yet, but so far it does appear to be one of the best tints I've ever seen, along with the previously mentioned M60 and T1.


I'm hesitant to say it out-throws the narrow beam of my 85Tr, but I can definitely see better at a distance with the 140Cgt at 100lm. This may be due to the better tint, my Twisty is very cool and a bit lavendery. I've previously observed that my very cool 85Tr does not throw as well as one with a bit of yellow in the tint.


At 100lm, the Cgt "feels" like it's a little brighter than the 120P, or at least I can see far away things more clearly. Again, this may be tint, it's too slight for me to say without doing a careful bounce test. On burst, the Cgt quite clearly out-throws the NT, putting a "rather comfortable and adequate" amount of light on a subject at the same distance that the NT is slipping into "slightly hazy" territory. This is not to say that it dramatically out-throws it (neither of these lights has a throw-oriented beam), it simply means that there is a difference and it is a clear and unmistakable difference.


When Henry announced that the light could be locked out by unscrewing the head and tail a certain amount to disengage the switch, my question was whether this meant it cut only the switch signal and not the power, allowing it to be locked on. I can now confirm that this is the case, the light can be physically locked on by unscrewing it a little more than a quarter turn.
In conclusion, I love this light. It's everything I always wanted the 120P to be. All the versatility, but accurate calibration, better runtime, a little more power, and a tint that is a pleasure to use, rather than something to try to ignore. Great work, Henry!


----------



## SaturnNyne (Dec 2, 2008)

Also, I snapped a few photos of my Clicky.



 

 

 

 


You can click on the thumbs for the larger version, or view the entire album here: Ra Clicky photos. You can zoom in using the button at top right or download a 1000x750 copy with the link towards the top center.

I apologize for the beamshots not being more helpful, especially the outdoor ones. I'm not very good at them and by the time I got to them I just wanted to quickly get a shot and move on to other things, so I didn't bother locking the exposure and they'll only be useful in comparing directly against the beam in the shot with it. With the outdoor ones, I mainly just wanted to show the increased clarity the GT tint offers, but I don't think I was successful in that. However, you can kind of see, especially in the first one, that the Clicky side is a little more vibrant (except in the last three against the other GT, of course).


----------



## Kamakazikev24 (Dec 2, 2008)

And yet more good reviews!
Can't wait to get mine


----------



## FredericoFreire (Dec 2, 2008)

Very nice pics SaturnNyne! Thanks!


----------



## SaturnNyne (Dec 2, 2008)

Ha, thanks Fred, I like your photo too. And a heads up for those who have already seen them, I just added a few more photos.


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## FredericoFreire (Dec 2, 2008)

These are the photos I was waiting since the very first beginning, that show size comparison with the Twisty and HDS EDC. :twothumbs


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## tebore (Dec 2, 2008)

FredericoFreire you might want to resize that pic. 800x600 is the limit. That's 800x800. Actually you might want to just remove it. Since this is a PG forum and it's got some swears in it.

SN those are some kick butt pics!


----------



## SaturnNyne (Dec 2, 2008)

FredericoFreire said:


> These are the photos I was waiting since the very first beginning, that show size comparison with the Twisty and HDS EDC. :twothumbs


I'm very happy to have been helpful to you! I find it to be really quite a comfortable size. Let me know if you'd like a comparison shot next to any of my other lights and I'll take them when I have some time.




tebore said:


> . . . Since this is a PG forum and it's got some swears in it.
> 
> SN those are some kick butt pics!


I'm pretty sure any offense is due to his poor english... 
Thanks, glad you liked them.


----------



## FredericoFreire (Dec 2, 2008)

Sorry, I just posted that picture to say that this is a nice thread, and thought that it is a fun picture.

I think that swear people must adapt themselves to the rest of the world, not the rest of the world follow the some special rules. But that's another question, picture is edited anyway. Let's go back to the Ra Clicky.

Sorry again.


----------



## Kid9P (Dec 2, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> Also, I snapped a few photos of my Clicky.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Saturn,

THANK YOU for the beamshots !! These are really great pics and it was exactly what I needed to make me purchase one of these Clicky's :thumbsup:

For some reason I thought the golden dragon emmiters were going to be used. Might have just gotten my threads mixed up 

I will probably go for the narrow beam version though. Throw is important for me.

Thanks again for the great pics


----------



## SaturnNyne (Dec 2, 2008)

Kid9P said:


> These are really great pics and it was exactly what I needed to make me purchase one of these Clicky's :thumbsup:


Got one!!  You're welcome, glad they helped.



Kid9P said:


> For some reason I thought the golden dragon emmiters were going to be used. Might have just gotten my threads mixed up
> 
> I will probably go for the narrow beam version though.


The narrow beam version does indeed use the golden dragon. SSC only in wide beam models. (Of course that holds true only for the present, the emitters used are not officially disclosed by HDS because they don't want to limit their options down the road.)


----------



## matrixshaman (Dec 2, 2008)

Kid9P - I think the Golden Dragon IS probably what is used in the 140-CN version or at least that seems to be the consensus I believe. I'm still waiting to see some beam shots and pics from someone who has the 140-CN. Anyone got the 140-CN on order ?


----------



## lumenlover2 (Dec 2, 2008)

Great photos Saturn. Glad you like the light and it is finally in your hands!

Now i know that these lights are not in the same league but for size and beam comparison could you (or luxlover) post a pic of the ra clicky next to a Fenix L1D ? That would be great as i do not own one of the comparison lights at moment.


----------



## SaturnNyne (Dec 2, 2008)

lumenlover2 said:


> Now i know that these lights are not in the same league but for size and beam comparison could you post a pic of the ra clicky next to a Fenix L1D ? That would be great as i do not own one of the comparison lights at moment.


Hmm, my L1D has been out on loan for probably half a year, but I'll try to keep you in mind if I have a chance to borrow it back sometime this week. What I do have is the NiteCore D10, which is only about half a centimeter shorter, so I put up a couple quick shots with that as my closest stand-in. I also tossed in the gen6 SF L1-Cree with tail ring, for anyone who might find that useful.


 


As noted there, they're all aligned at the bezel end in the shot of all three. Some may find it useful to note that the Clicky comes to almost exactly where the L1's lanyard groove starts; I know I found that useful a while back when I first determined it based on the Clicky's measurements.

I also added in some quick beamshots next to the D10, for anyone who might want to see that. I tried to underexpose them a bit but didn't go far enough to show anything meaningful in the spots. For anyone wondering, the D10 and 140C look like they'll throw pretty evenly, with the D10 at full power and Ra at 100lm. The Ra actually looks a little stronger, but I'd rather be fair and call it about the same due to my eyes' bias toward warmer tints. Oh by the way, the D10 is running on a 14500, I should add that on the photos too.


----------



## luxlover (Dec 2, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> Yes, it does. Full manual. But on to more important business...
> 
> 
> My 140Cgt arrived yesterday! Here are my quick first impressions of it:
> ...


Very nice array of comments. Very complete. Not much more to say. Sounds like you like the light a little!

You know, it is not as easy to shoot pictures of a Clicky as it is to write impressions of it. Therefore, I ask everybody to do so, with or without the ability or desire to take shots.

Saturn, you reminded me that I owe the gang my own impressions! 

Jeff


----------



## luxlover (Dec 2, 2008)

Kid9P said:


> Saturn,
> THANK YOU for the beamshots !! These are really great pics, and it was exactly what I needed to make me purchase one of these Clickys. :thumbsup:


Make up your mind Ray....is it going to be a :thumbsdow or a :thumbsup: for the Clicky, this week that is? 

No matter how hard you try, you know that life is not worth living without a Clicky.


----------



## Enzo Morocioli (Dec 2, 2008)

matrixshaman said:


> Anyone got the 140-CN on order ?



Yes, I do... Should have the 140Cn late this week, or early next..


----------



## orcinus (Dec 2, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> Also, I snapped a few photos of my Clicky.



Nice photos! :thumbsup:
Especially liked the last few with the whole family in session


----------



## luxlover (Dec 2, 2008)

Enzo Morocioli said:


> Yes, I do... Should have the 140Cn late this week, or early next..


That is good news. We are expecting you to post impressions and possibly some snazzy shots shortly thereafter! :nana: 

Jeff
Clicky Honeymooner


----------



## orcinus (Dec 2, 2008)

Enzo Morocioli said:


> Yes, I do... Should have the 140Cn late this week, or early next..



Holding my breath


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## lumenlover2 (Dec 2, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> Hmm, my L1D has been out on loan for probably half a year, but I'll try to keep you in mind if I have a chance to borrow it back sometime this week. What I do have is the NiteCore D10, which is only about half a centimeter shorter, so I put up a couple quick shots with that as my closest stand-in. I also tossed in the gen6 SF L1-Cree with tail ring, for anyone who might find that useful.
> http://picasaweb.google.com/saturnnyne/RaClicky#5275243615844663554
> As noted there, they're all aligned at the bezel end in the shot of all three. Some may find it useful to note that the Clicky comes to almost exactly where the L1's lanyard groove starts; I know I found that useful a while back when I first determined it based on the Clicky's measurements.
> 
> I also added in some quick beamshots next to the D10, for anyone who might want to see that. I tried to underexpose them a bit but didn't go far enough to show anything meaningful in the spots. For anyone wondering, the D10 and 140C look like they'll throw pretty evenly, with the D10 at full power and Ra at 100lm. The Ra actually looks a little stronger, but I'd rather be fair and call it about the same due to my eyes' bias toward warmer tints. Oh by the way, the D10 is running on a 14500, I should add that on the photos too.


 
WOW thank you very much for the ultra fast response and that you took your time to do these fine shots! very helpful as you mentioned the d10 is close to the L1D. 

:twothumbs


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## Kid9P (Dec 2, 2008)

luxlover said:


> Make up your mind Ray....is it going to be a :thumbsdow or a :thumbsup: for the Clicky, this week that is?



What can I say Jeff. 
Saturns pics really sold me on one.

Not to say that your pics were bad


----------



## orcinus (Dec 2, 2008)

luxlover said:


> Packing material. The tool in the small bag is a P51 Military Style Can Opener, compliments of Russtang.



Haven't noticed this before, but i have to comment on it...
Does everything over the pond have to be "military style", "aerospace grade", "tactical" etc.? :laughing:

They used to include openers such as this with most cans (canned fish, usually) over here before the "advent" of peel-open cans. And you could ask for fistfuls of them at the store cash registers and counters.

The exact same design except for the split ring hole.

PS: Is it titanium?


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## luxlover (Dec 2, 2008)

Kid9P said:


> What can I say Jeff.....Saturn's pics really sold me on one.
> 
> Not to say that your pics were bad.


You are a no good, dirty, rotten scoundrel. But I forgive you. 

So may I assume that "today", you will be persuing a 140Cn for it's throw superiority. Tomorrow.....who knows?


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## Kid9P (Dec 2, 2008)

luxlover said:


> You are a no good, dirty, rotten scoundrel. But I forgive you.
> 
> So may I assume that "today", you will be persuing a 140Cn for it's throw superiority. Tomorrow.....who knows?



Just knowing that you think so highly of what my flashlight choices are by keeping up to date on my Clicky opinions makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

Thanks for making me feel so special Jeff! 
:twothumbs


----------



## luxlover (Dec 2, 2008)

Kid9P said:


> Just knowing that you think so highly of what my flashlight choices are by keeping up to date on my Clicky opinions, makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
> 
> Thanks for making me feel so special Jeff!
> :twothumbs


All in a day's work, my boy! The warmth and fuzz you are experiencing will magnify exponentially when you have your 140Cn in hand. :santa: is coming to your town!


----------



## matrixshaman (Dec 2, 2008)

Enzo Morocioli said:


> Yes, I do... Should have the 140Cn late this week, or early next..



Look forward to your comments and/or any pics you might be able to do on this one. Do you have a Ra Twisty Wide or NT 120P ? I think I recall you are maintaining the Ra Twisty registry so I've probably answered my own question but not sure if you've got a Ra TW.


----------



## Rob (Dec 2, 2008)

Thanks Henry for another outstanding light.


----------



## tpchan (Dec 3, 2008)

I see the two drilled/tapped holes in the head section of the Clicky and assume they are for the coming clip attachment, but what are the four holes in the button section of the light? The holes are placed symmetrically, 90 degrees apart, on the side of the button section of the Ra Clicky. Do these holes compromise the waterproofness of my new Clicky? Are these four holes even supposed to be present on the light?


----------



## MikeG1P315 (Dec 3, 2008)

i believe the four holes are for the special tool which must be used to remove the button cap from the battery tube.

i am sure they do not compromise the design in any way.

have faith! i bet henry will chime in soon.


----------



## antiplex (Dec 3, 2008)

thanks to saturn for another nice review, this little light is so tempting and i'd love to order one!
unluckily i promised to myself that i won't order one until the clip and a 2xAA tube is available since i don't want to use an additional cell-format... hope that these eagerly awaited addons will come soon... *pray*


----------



## SaturnNyne (Dec 3, 2008)

matrixshaman said:


> Do you have a Ra Twisty Wide or NT 120P ? I think I recall you are maintaining the Ra Twisty registry so I've probably answered my own question but not sure if you've got a Ra TW.


Enzo doesn't have either of those, but he's a friend of mine so I can provide my 120P and 140Cgt for comparison shots when his Cn arrives. (Yes, both Ra registrars live in the same village.)


Oh yeah, my Clicky saved a life today. Well, it at least saved some pain. I was leaving my house in the dark, with my hands somewhat full of stuff, and pulled out the light as I started down my pitch black stairs. I turned the light on just as my foot was stepping down on my black cat, allowing me to quickly pull all weight off that foot and fall to the next step down before exceeding the safe limits of feline compressibility. (My cat sees me playing with all these lights and thinks it's entirely for fun, he often assumes I don't actually need them to see him in complete darkness. He's never been silly enough to lie in wait for me on those stairs before, though.) Of course any light could have done just as well here, but, since I know the spacing of the steps by memory, I may or may not have bothered to use a light if I hadn't had a new one I wanted to use. So I'm very glad for the combination of luck and new light excitement that allowed for a happy ending. >'.'<


----------



## luxlover (Dec 3, 2008)

Does this shot of the Seoul P4 emitter qualify as an "up close and personal" picture showing nice centering in the reflector?


----------



## Kamakazikev24 (Dec 3, 2008)

Nah, that's way too outta focus! What is it anyway.........
LOL Good shot. 
Kam.


----------



## paxxus (Dec 3, 2008)

Nice shot lux - that's what I call a perfectly centered emitter


----------



## luxlover (Dec 3, 2008)

Kamakazikev24 said:


> Nah, that's way too outta focus! What is it anyway.........
> LOL Good shot.
> Kam.


What is it, you ask? CPFers are tough customers, and we all know that the customer is always right!

It is the nucleus of one atom of the P4 emitter. Can't you see the proton in the middle and the electrons revolving around it in perfect electro-magnetic equilibrium?

Thank you though. I can do better. I need more practice with my electron microscope to capture those sub-atomic particles. 

Jeff


----------



## matrixshaman (Dec 3, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> Enzo doesn't have either of those, but he's a friend of mine so I can provide my 120P and 140Cgt for comparison shots when his Cn arrives. (Yes, both Ra registrars live in the same village.)
> 
> 
> Oh yeah, my Clicky saved a life today. Well, it at least saved some pain. I was leaving my house in the dark, with my hands somewhat full of stuff, and pulled out the light as I started down my pitch black stairs. I turned the light on just as my foot was stepping down on my black cat, allowing me to quickly pull all weight off that foot and fall to the next step down before exceeding the safe limits of feline compressibility. (My cat sees me playing with all these lights and thinks it's entirely for fun, he often assumes I don't actually need them to see him in complete darkness. He's never been silly enough to lie in wait for me on those stairs before, though.) Of course any light could have done just as well here, but, since I know the spacing of the steps by memory, I may or may not have bothered to use a light if I hadn't had a new one I wanted to use. So I'm very glad for the combination of luck and new light excitement that allowed for a happy ending. >'.'<



Great - I look forward to seeing the comparison but I'm even more thrilled you saved your kitty with that lucky combination!


----------



## luxlover (Dec 3, 2008)

paxxus said:


> Nice shot lux - that's what I call a perfectly centered emitter


Tell that to Kam, who isn't sure at what he is looking! :nana:


----------



## luxlover (Dec 3, 2008)

Boys & girls,
If your browser has _imagezooming_ capabilities, zoom-in at my image for a closer peek at the emitter in post #489. At the 11 o'clock position, you will see part of the emitter's leg, to which one of the two circuit wires has been soldered. You could never see this with the naked (pardon the expression!) eye!

Jeff


----------



## Kamakazikev24 (Dec 3, 2008)

luxlover said:


> Boys & girls,
> If your browser has _imagezooming_ capabilities, zoom-in at my image for a closer peek at the emitter in post #489. At the 11 o'clock position, you will see part of the emitter's leg, to which one of the two circuit wires has been soldered. You could never see this with the naked (pardon the expression!) eye!
> 
> Jeff



BUT you can see it if YOUR naked. Haha!

Really though that's a good photo LuxLover, thanks for, again, taking the time to do that. 
This light looks awesome, well made and a great UI.


----------



## m16a (Dec 3, 2008)

Flux, are you crazy? I don't see a picture in post #489...


----------



## luxlover (Dec 3, 2008)

Kamakazikev24 said:


> BUT you can see it if YOU'RE naked. Haha!
> 
> Really though that's a good photo LuxLover. Thanks again, for taking the time to do that.
> This light looks awesome, well made and a great UI.


I would never take a shot naked. After all, this is a family oriented environment, where crazy flashlight enthusiasts congregate and share their heart warming stories of house foreclosures and car repossessions due to excessive flashlight spending.

Thank you again. The shot was a little harder than my others. The proton didn't want to pose for me and stop warbling in place.


----------



## Kamakazikev24 (Dec 3, 2008)

That's cause your fully dressed! Hehe!


----------



## luxlover (Dec 3, 2008)

Kamakazikev24 said:


> That's because you're fully dressed! Hehe!


Kam,
Now I get it! I will have to modify my dress attire from now on, when taking Clicky shots.


----------



## luxlover (Dec 3, 2008)

m16a said:


> Flux, are you crazy? I don't see a picture in post #489...


Yes I am crazy, but for an entirely different reason than you suspect. 

You don't see it? Do you see post #489? When was the last time you had your eyeballs polished? 

This reminds me of the time I had a routine eye exam. The doc asked me "do you see the letter "E" on the wall" and I replied "what wall?" Ta da!

Jeff
Ophthalmic Optimist


----------



## Kamakazikev24 (Dec 3, 2008)




----------



## tebore (Dec 3, 2008)

luxlover said:


> Boys & girls,
> If your browser has _imagezooming_ capabilities, zoom-in at my image for a closer peek at the emitter in post #489. At the 11 o'clock position, you will see part of the emitter's leg, to which one of the two circuit wires has been soldered. You could never see this with the naked (pardon the expression!) eye!
> 
> Jeff



Actually that wouldn't be the emitter's leg. It's just one of the P4 silver regions around the the gummy dome.


----------



## luxlover (Dec 3, 2008)

tebore said:


> Actually that wouldn't be the emitter's leg. It's just one of the P4 silver regions around the gummy dome.


I assumed incorrectly. Should I sent you my Ra Clicky as a sign of penance?


----------



## tebore (Dec 3, 2008)

luxlover said:


> I assumed incorrectly. Should I sent you my Ra Clicky as a sign of penance?



Nah. However if you feel it'll help. :naughty:
I just didn't want anymore of us blindfolk squinting anymore trying to spot the connection. :laughing:


----------



## luxlover (Dec 3, 2008)

tebore said:


> Nah. However if you feel it'll help. :naughty:
> I just didn't want anymore of us blindfolk squinting anymore trying to spot the connection. :laughing:


You are a good samaritan, "neighbor to the north!"

Working on your pm!!!


----------



## NVBoy (Dec 3, 2008)

luxlover said:


> What is it, you ask? CPFers are tough customers, and we all know that the customer is always right!
> 
> It is the nucleus of one atom of the P4 emitter. Can't you see the proton in the middle and the electrons revolving around it in perfect electro-magnetic equilibrium?
> 
> ...


 
I don't see the protons. I do see the neutrons though. And that valance shell of electrons is outstanding! Keep up the good work.


----------



## HDS_Systems (Dec 3, 2008)

SaturnNyne,

Glad you like it. 

TPChan,

Would I compromise the waterproofness of a Ra Clicky with drill holes?  No. Nor would I add holes just for decoration. MikeG1P315 has it right.

Henry.


----------



## discoverEDC (Dec 4, 2008)

I think I know the answer but I'll ask anyhow: Is there a way to make simple momentary be tactical strobe and maintain the other 4 levels of regular lighting?

The way that I know would work is to set a regular level to strobe and force set that level and then enable simple momentary but you loose a regular light level and always turn on to tactical strobe first 

Walt

140C - Fantastic light


----------



## SaturnNyne (Dec 4, 2008)

luxlover said:


> zoom-in at my image for a closer peek at the emitter in post #489. At the 11 o'clock position, you will see part of the emitter's leg, to which one of the two circuit wires has been soldered.


I got confused by that one, I was staring at your magnified photo trying to figure out what you were talking about until tebore's hint pointed me to the silver thingamy. I thought I was looking for the little die wire thingamies:



(click for larger)



discoverEDC said:


> I think I know the answer but I'll ask anyhow: Is there a way to make simple momentary be tactical strobe and maintain the other 4 levels of regular lighting?
> 
> The way that I know would work is to set a regular level to strobe and force set that level and then enable simple momentary but you loose a regular light level and always turn on to tactical strobe first


You're correct that it can't be done, aside from the method you mentioned. Momentary always comes on at either the forced turn on level, if activated, or whatever level was last used.


----------



## luxlover (Dec 4, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> I got confused by that one, I was staring at your magnified photo trying to figure out what you were talking about until tebore's hint pointed me to the silver thingamy. I thought I was looking for the little die wire thingamies:
> 
> 
> 
> (click for larger)


Nice shot of an off center emitter, with a lovely pink tint. I am pink with envy!!!  

Jeff


----------



## luxlover (Dec 4, 2008)

tebore said:


> Nah. However if you feel it'll help. :naughty:
> I just didn't want anymore of us blindfolk squinting anymore trying to spot the connection. :laughing:


It won't help, trust me! 

You are a credit to our cockeyed community. You have prevented many of us from making a _spectacle_ of ourselves!


----------



## SaturnNyne (Dec 4, 2008)

luxlover said:


> Nice shot of an off center emitter, with a lovely pink tint. I am pink with envy!!!


The only alignment that matters is that of the die, and, as far as I can tell by looking at the actual light, it's perfectly centered. Either way, the beam is perfect, doesn't even develop a central dark spot until like an inch away from the wall. Not sure where you're getting the idea that it's pink since the led isn't even on in that shot; I see only the usual yellowy-greenish phosphor. If you mean the shade of the reflector, that's all from the light being used to illuminate the shot from outside (my L1, in this case). Also, since I was cropping this one anyway, I bumped contrast and saturation slightly, so any colors you see will be just a little bolder than life. (None of the other shots so far have had any post-processing done, too lazy.)


----------



## Kamakazikev24 (Dec 4, 2008)

SaturnNyne, are those your pics hosted on the picasa site? There great pics!


----------



## luxlover (Dec 4, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> The only alignment that matters is that of the die, and, as far as I can tell by looking at the actual light, it's perfectly centered. Either way, the beam is perfect, doesn't even develop a central dark spot until like an inch away from the wall. Not sure where you're getting the idea that it's pink, since the led isn't even on in that shot; I see only the usual yellowy-greenish phosphor. If you mean the shade of the reflector, that's all from the light being used to illuminate the shot from outside (my L1, in this case). Also, since I was cropping this one anyway, I bumped contrast and saturation slightly, so any colors you see will be just a little bolder than life. (None of the other shots so far have had any post-processing done, too lazy.)


Now I get it. Your L1 is pink!

Your Picasa hosted shots are magnifique, by the way. Those looking at them who and not dying to order a Clicky, need to have their noggins re-calibrated. :nana:

Jeff


----------



## luxlover (Dec 4, 2008)

Kamakazikev24 said:


> SaturnNyne, are those your pics hosted on the picasa site? There great pics!


Kam,
They certainly are. Just think, I taught him everything he knows about photography.......*JUST KIDDING!*


----------



## paxxus (Dec 4, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


>


:duh2::sick2::green:

I admit that I'm totally OCD about off center emitters - it bugs me, BIG time. Hopefully mine will be better in this regard...


----------



## tebore (Dec 4, 2008)

It scares me how much you guys are bothered by off centered reflectors/emitter. 
I wouldn't call the pictures of the emitters off center they're well within any kind of mass production tolerance. Most importantly it doesn't affect the beam. 

Step back and take a look, you have to use very good macro shots under intense magnification to even see the hundredths of an inch of the emitter peeking through the reflector. 

You guys kill me and that's why it's so much fun to be here.


----------



## luxlover (Dec 4, 2008)

paxxus said:


> :duh2::sick2::green:
> 
> I admit that I'm totally OCD about off center emitters - it bugs me, BIG time. Hopefully mine will be better in this regard...


I am with you there. But know that with the front end arrangement of parts on the Twisty and Clicky, it is very hard to center a reflector around an emitter. The reason is that the reflector is part of the head assembly, and screws into the head from the front. The emiitter is fixed on the light module which is glued to the head from the back.

You may be able to impliment a slight improvement by tightening or loosening ever so slightly onto the head, the assembly that is integral wth the reflector, before threading the SS bezel onto that assembly. The reflector is not an independent part that can be freely rotated and positioned around the reflector, like those on the NovaTac and EDC lights.

I will be hoping for you, that your light is to your liking.

Jeff


----------



## luxlover (Dec 4, 2008)

tebore said:


> It scares me how much you guys are bothered by off-centered reflectors/emitters.
> 
> I wouldn't call the pictures of the emitters off-center. They're well within any kind of mass production tolerance. Most importantly, it doesn't affect the beam.
> 
> ...


Of course, I agree with what you have pointed out. I can only speak for myself when I confess that while I am waiting for many others to receive their Clicky and tell us about it, I am also trying to bring some good cheer to this thread. The macro feature of our cameras can see what our eyes cannot see, and this advantage has us exaggerate our reaction to the images.

Jeff


----------



## paxxus (Dec 4, 2008)

tebore said:


> It scares me how much you guys are bothered by off centered reflectors/emitter.
> I wouldn't call the pictures of the emitters off center they're well within any kind of mass production tolerance. Most importantly it doesn't affect the beam.
> 
> Step back and take a look, you have to use very good macro shots under intense magnification to even see the hundreds of a inch of the emitter peeking through the reflector.


Yeah. I bought a brand new high end car the other day, it was all bumped up. It can't be seen from a small distance though, and most importantly it doesn't affect the performance of the car in any way so I was totally OK with that...  "But, but, the flashlight is a tool!" Ok, ok. I bought a brand new high end _truck_ the other day, it was all.... 



tebore said:


> You guys kill me and that's why it's so much fun to be here.


I _did_ say I was OCD about this kind of thing didn't I


----------



## tebore (Dec 4, 2008)

paxxus said:


> Yeah. I bought a brand new high end car the other day, it was all bumped up. It can't be seen from a small distance though, and most importantly it doesn't affect the performance of the car in any way so I was totally OK with that...  "But, but, the flashlight is a tool!" Ok, ok. I bought a brand new high end _truck_ the other day, it was all....
> 
> 
> I _did_ say I was OCD about this kind of thing didn't I



An off center reflector isn't like a bump in a new car it's more like the defroster vent grill in the dash popping up once in a while and you have to pop it back in. It's annoying but doesn't affect any real aspect of function. 

^^ True story, my boss has a Jaguar and his vent grill keeps popping up. He brings it in the dealer and they pop it back in for him. It happens a few times and they finally tried some glue. Now that's gotta suck. Price doesn't determine quality, all those satisfaction reports by Jag owners are proof of that.


----------



## paxxus (Dec 4, 2008)

luxlover said:


> I am with you there. But know that with the front end arrangement of parts on the Twisty and Clicky, it is very hard to center a reflector around an emitter. The reason is that the reflector is part of the head assembly, and screws into the head from the front. The emiitter is fixed on the light module which is glued to the head from the back.
> 
> You may be able to impliment a slight improvement by tightening or loosening ever so slightly onto the head, the assembly that is integral wth the reflector, before threading the SS bezel onto that assembly. The reflector is not an independent part that can be freely rotated and positioned around the reflector, like those on the NovaTac and EDC lights.


I see. Yes, I was able to center the emitter on my NT by shifting the reflector around before tightening the bezel ring.

I hate to say it, but for some reason I've only seen this problem on more expensive non-china lights. Go figure...
 



luxlover said:


> I will be hoping for you, that your light is to your liking.
> 
> Jeff


Thanks. I think the golden dragon LED will be more forgiving in this regard.


----------



## orcinus (Dec 4, 2008)

paxxus said:


> :duh2::sick2::green:
> 
> I admit that I'm totally OCD about off center emitters - it bugs me, BIG time. Hopefully mine will be better in this regard...



Erm... You guys *DID* notice the shot is at an angle, not perpendicular to the surface of the emitter, right? You're just pulling SN's leg?


----------



## paxxus (Dec 4, 2008)

orcinus said:


> Erm... You guys *DID* notice the shot is at an angle, not perpendicular to the surface of the emitter, right? You're just pulling SN's leg?


Hmm... You could be right. My apology if my ramblings were unfounded.. It's that OCD thing - it messes with my brain..  :nana:


----------



## Kamakazikev24 (Dec 4, 2008)

Well I have to say that the beam shots look perfect!


----------



## luxlover (Dec 4, 2008)

Kamakazikev24 said:


> Well I have to say that the beam shots look perfect!


Kam,
Bingo! As much as we, me included, hate to admit it, being off-center does not affect the light when in use.


----------



## The Sun (Dec 4, 2008)

you guys are geeks!!!!!!!!!

....but seriously can i get a reading of the current draw off of an AW RCR, and some IS numbers......please....please....please....please!!!!! JK


<----------geek


----------



## Russki (Dec 4, 2008)

Received my new HDS yesterday.
As always Henrys lights outstanding. Build like a tank. I like extended length, fit very nicely in hand. Seoul in mine have yellow corona over slightly blue hot spot, look like U2, have to be over 100Lm at 350mA. I am not see noticeable difference between Clicky and U2 Seouled HDS60.
Also old HDS clip will fit nicely with little modification.
Enjoy you Ra lights.


----------



## luxlover (Dec 4, 2008)

Russki said:


> Received my new HDS yesterday.
> As always Henrys lights outstanding. Build like a tank. I like extended length, fit very nicely in hand. Seoul in mine have yellow corona over slightly blue hot spot, look like U2, have to be over 100Lm at 350mA. I am not see noticeable difference between Clicky and U2 Seouled HDS60.
> Also old HDS clip will fit nicely with little modification.
> Enjoy you Ra lights.


Congratulations! I like the way the low profile pan head socket screws blend with the clip and body. Nice choice of hardware.

Don't forget to post in SaturnNyne's Clicky Registry here..... https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2701704#post2701704

The #5326 I see looks like it is a 140C, judging by it's company with the other 140Cs already on the list. Is it?

Jeff


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## HDS_Systems (Dec 4, 2008)

DiscoverEDC,

Since there are only 4 presets, the answer has to be no. That said, if you are willing to give up one setting, there are two possible ways. The first way you mentioned, is to enable Momentary and set the turn-on setting (i.e., Force Setting, Primary by default) to be tactical strobe. The second way is to turn on Momentary and set the High setting to tactical strobe. The second way requires a click press and hold to operate but will not interfere with your regular turn-on setting.

LuxLover,

Your discussion on the centering is incorrect. You may want to take a look at the cut-away diagram on the details page to see how parts actually fit together. As Tebore said, there are normal production tolerances and the extremely minor misalignment shown in the photo - which is as bad as it gets and is measured in single digit mils - has no visible affect on the beam. The misalignment is caused by the LED manufacturer's tolerances - which are large compared to the machining tolerances.

Henry.


----------



## orcinus (Dec 4, 2008)

But there really isn't any misalignment in that photo!
Come on, people, am i the only one who can see it's not a straight-on shot? 

Edit: I'd swear the reflector opening looks elliptical. But maybe it's an optical illusion...


----------



## tebore (Dec 4, 2008)

orcinus said:


> But there really isn't any misalignment in that photo!
> Come on, people, am i the only one who can see it's not a straight-on shot?
> 
> Edit: I'd swear the reflector opening looks elliptical. But maybe it's an optical illusion...



Not misaligned enough to matter in the topic of reflector/emitter centering.


----------



## Enzo Morocioli (Dec 4, 2008)

orcinus said:


> But there really isn't any misalignment in that photo!
> Come on, people, am i the only one who can see it's not a straight-on shot?
> 
> Edit: I'd swear the reflector opening looks elliptical. But maybe it's an optical illusion...








I'm with you Orcinus. When using super macro, the slightest camera angle will manipulate aspects of perception. SaturnNyne just needs to be a little more _exacting_. :tinfoil:

I'll just say that I'm not worried about an emitter being misaligned in the Clicky. There were no distinct reports of that type of problem with the Twisty, and so I'd say the process for building these lights is well refined.


----------



## tebore (Dec 4, 2008)

Enzo Morocioli said:


> I'm with you Orcinus. When using super macro, the slightest camera angle will manipulate aspects of perception. SaturnNyne just needs to be a little more _exacting_. :tinfoil:



While it is true what you said with super macros. In these cases and pictures and with what the pictures are used to explain, the misalignment and their degree of misalignment do not matter. They show what is present. I'm not saying that the misalignment may or may not be over or under emphasizing the issue. 

The pictures just show the issue. The people who are bothered by it will be bothered regardless of the degree of seriousness of the issue.


----------



## orcinus (Dec 4, 2008)




----------



## luxlover (Dec 4, 2008)

HDS_Systems said:


> LuxLover,
> Your discussion on the centering is incorrect. You may want to take a look at the cut-away diagram on the details page to see how parts actually fit together. As Tebore said, there are normal production tolerances and the extremely minor misalignment shown in the photo - which is as bad as it gets and is measured in single digit mils - has no visible affect on the beam. The misalignment is caused by the LED manufacturer's tolerances - which are large compared to the machining tolerances.
> 
> Henry


Henry,
I know how they fit together. Did you forget that I am Luxlover, the "Disassembly Kid?" I dismantled the head of my Twisty entirely. The head and light module are the only parts that cannot be separated, since you glued them together.

I am thinking that I have optimized the centering of my reflector around the emitter on the Twisty from it's default factory condition. The only thing I can think of based on the construction of the head, is that the centerline of the reflector's thru-hole is not coincident with the centerline of the reflector's threads. This is a possibility. If this is what has happened, rotating the reflector a little will exhibit a change in the relationship of the reflector to the emitter. This is why I mentioned it to paxxus.

Regardless of my idea, I do agree with you and everybody here who has stated that a small lack of concentricity between reflector and emitter would have no effect on the beam pattern.

Jeff


----------



## luxlover (Dec 4, 2008)

orcinus said:


> But there really isn't any misalignment in that photo!
> Come on, people, am I the only one who can see it's not a straight-on shot?
> 
> Edit: I'd swear the reflector opening looks elliptical. But maybe it's an optical illusion...


Ante,
It would be impossible to detect an eccentricity in the picture using the emitter as a focal point, unless there was another circular item near it that you know is circular and appears to be elliptical. I have looked at Saturn's image many times, and beside my joking about the color, I see nothing out of the ordinary about it!!!

Like I said in my previous post, it may be that the centerline of the reflector's thru-hole is not coincident with the centerline of the reflector's threads. This is surely a possibility! Since a camera's lens does funny things to objects, it may very well be an optical illusion!

Jeff


----------



## luxlover (Dec 4, 2008)

tebore said:


> Not misaligned enough to matter in the topic of reflector/emitter centering.


Agreed! :thumbsup:


----------



## Splunk_Au (Dec 4, 2008)

You guys wana try checking the allignment under an electron microscope just to make sure?


----------



## tebore (Dec 4, 2008)

Splunk_Au said:


> You guys wana try checking the allignment under an electron microscope just to make sure?



Then take the measurement and apply some quantum physics and string theory to it to make sure it's centered in this universe and others.


----------



## luxlover (Dec 4, 2008)

Enzo Morocioli said:


> I'm with you Orcinus. When using super macro, the slightest camera angle will manipulate aspects of perception. SaturnNyne just needs to be a little more _exacting_. :tinfoil:


Enzo,
Saturn needs a micro-mini Hubble Telescope to get in deep, deep into the nitty gritty of led die macrophotography. :devil:


----------



## Robertesq1 (Dec 4, 2008)

Not to get back on topic or anything....

How far down the list are they and what's the wait for someone who is just ordering now???


----------



## luxlover (Dec 4, 2008)

Robertesq1 said:


> Not to get back on topic or anything....
> 
> How far down the list are they and what's the wait for someone who is just ordering now???


That's right, on topic is so boring with so few having received a light.....

It is impossible to answer your question, since nobody knows how many are on the Battery Station pre-order list. In addition, I am not sure if Henry has been shipping to his Japanese and UK dealers. But you can look here to see how many on the Unique Titanium pre-order list have received their lights....
http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showpost.php?p=2168995&postcount=1

Jeff


----------



## youreacrab (Dec 5, 2008)

luxlover said:


> It is impossible to answer your question, since nobody knows how many are on the Battery Station pre-order list.



Two weeks for me. Ordered Nov 21; received Dec 4.


----------



## bullfrog (Dec 5, 2008)

I've really enjoyed following this thread for the past few months!

Very eager to buy a Clicky but just wondering, for those of you who own a Clicky 140-CN *AND* Twisty 85-TR:

Is the beam patter and tint pretty much identical? Other than that, I'm assuming the difference in lumens from 85 to 100 is not noticible...

Thanks!


----------



## Enzo Morocioli (Dec 5, 2008)

never mind.


----------



## SaturnNyne (Dec 5, 2008)

Gee golly... I snap a shot of my emitter without even really paying any attention to the minor gap on one side, and now people all over the world are discussing my horrifying misalignment!  Anyway, plenty have stepped in for explanations of what's being seen here, but I figured I'd better offer up my own responses for you wonderful nutters, since I'm the only one actually able to look at it in real life.



paxxus said:


> I admit that I'm totally OCD about off center emitters - it bugs me, BIG time. Hopefully mine will be better in this regard...


It kind of amuses me that it would be such a big deal, considering that it has no effect on how it performs and isn't even a very obvious cosmetic defect. But then some would say that my tint demands are ridiculous, even though to me it's obvious and a top priority issue. Just goes to show how different we all are in our perceptions, tastes, priorities, and focuses. Since it matters to you, I do hope you strike it lucky and get one that is absolutely perfect, even if it is just an ocd cosmetic issue. However, I hope you'll still enjoy it even if it's not perfect in this regard. Even if it's like mine, I think you'd find it less offensive in person.



paxxus said:


> I hate to say it, but for some reason I've only seen this problem on more expensive non-china lights. Go figure...


When I see an expensive light with a perfect beam and an led that doesn't appear to sit perfectly center, I interpret it as the manufacturer taking the time to do it right and make sure the actual die is centered despite the large tolerances they're forced to work with; just as seems to be the case here. Getting the entire assembly centered and pretty, as on the cheaper lights, is quicker but incorrect.



paxxus said:


> I think the golden dragon LED will be more forgiving in this regard.


I took a photo of my Twisty Tr in the same way, hoping to support your idea. Don't think I really did, but you can at least see that there's no offensive gap with this style of led. And, of course, the beam is perfect on this one too... Looking at this shot for the first time, it gives me the impression of being taken at a bit of an angle again, but I'm pretty sure that's a trick of the light. The lighting is all coming from one side, with the other side darker and shadowed, creating a depth illusion. I think this one is at least very nearly perfectly perpendicular, I took a little more time to get the emitter right in the center. Oh and I tried to get this shot extra pink, just for Jeff.



As before, click for larger.
And a note to make it obvious for anyone skimming through here in the future: This is Not a Clicky photo.




orcinus said:


> Erm... You guys *DID* notice the shot is at an angle, not perpendicular to the surface of the emitter, right? You're just pulling SN's leg?





orcinus said:


> But there really isn't any misalignment in that photo!
> Come on, people, am i the only one who can see it's not a straight-on shot?
> 
> Edit: I'd swear the reflector opening looks elliptical. But maybe it's an optical illusion...


Honestly, I don't even know. The shot was not taken at any significant angle (the lighting had to be shot in through the crenellations), but I can't guarantee that it was absolutely perfectly perpendicular either, I just quickly snapped the shot before going back to studying. At the photographic propinquity of these kinds of shots, a slight skew of the angle would likely make a significant difference. Looking at the light normally, there is no huge and offensive gap, but that small gap definitely is there on one side. I think a combination of maybe a tiny angle and just seeing it magnified so tremendously does overemphasize the issue. I have a feeling that if those who are very bothered by it were to look at the light in person, they would still notice it and be bothered by it just because that's their perception, but they'd see it as a much smaller issue than a photo 100 times larger makes it out to be. As for the reflector opening being elliptical, I think it could be too, but it is *ever so very very slight* if so; I can't even really say for certain when examining it because there's nothing to accurately compare it to, just a lot of angles that make it difficult to judge. So again, that might be a part of it, but we're talking degrees so small that they're of no practical concern.




HDS_Systems said:


> . . . the extremely minor misalignment shown in the photo - which is as bad as it gets and is measured in single digit mils - has no visible affect on the beam.


Ha, good to know mine's an extreme example of alignment imperfection.  But as said, it has no visible effect at all, so it doesn't bother me in the slightest. Purely a matter of (very minor) cosmetic preference. Its function is absolutely perfect, so a little character in the way it comes together is a non-issue to me.




Enzo Morocioli said:


> When using super macro, the slightest camera angle will manipulate aspects of perception. SaturnNyne just needs to be a little more _exacting_. :tinfoil:
> 
> I'll just say that I'm not worried about an emitter being misaligned in the Clicky. There were no distinct reports of that type of problem with the Twisty, and so I'd say the process for building these lights is well refined.


Hey now! If you'd seen how that shot was taken, I think you'd understand that I had priorities higher than getting the alignment dead on...  You're absolutely right though, only takes a slight angle. And I can't recall ever hearing a complaint about an HDS light not having a perfect beam. Every Henry light I've seen has been beautifully focused, so no one needs to worry if their concern is only from a practical/performance standpoint. For those looking for cosmetic perfection... you'll get it if it happens to work out that way, but it will never be a priority over getting the beam right.


----------



## SaturnNyne (Dec 5, 2008)

And now for the more off topic stuff...



paxxus said:


> I bought a brand new high end car the other day, it was all bumped up. It can't be seen from a small distance though, and most importantly it doesn't affect the performance of the car. . .


Actually I think the most appropriate analogy would be buying a car with uneven shut lines, which has been a very common issue on many cars. The English run a "pound coin test" on them to identify such little details. Fortunately, here in the US, our coins tend to be quite thin, so our cars are free to come together any way they like. 




tebore said:


> my boss has a Jaguar and his vent grill keeps popping up. . .Price doesn't determine quality, all those satisfaction reports by Jag owners are proof of that.


My understanding is they started out mechanically and electrically unreliable, Ford bought them and greatly improved their reliability record, but the tradeoff is the interiors are assembled from the same parts bins as the low end models. No winning. Speaking of vents, didn't Ford also initially put the vents from their entry level Ka in the Aston Martin Vantage, before public outcry forced them to actually put some money into the interior of their $xxx,xxx supercar? 




luxlover said:


> They certainly are. Just think, I taught him everything he knows about photography.......*JUST KIDDING!*


In the interest of honesty, it is true that Jeff and I were discussing how to take macro shots just a few nights ago...



luxlover said:


> Now I get it. Your L1 is pink!


The secret's out.. 


Back towards the topic...


Kamakazikev24 said:


> SaturnNyne, are those your pics hosted on the picasa site? There great pics!


Thanks, Kam. Yeah those are all my 140Cgt #5366, mostly shot on the night I got it. Due to other things demanding my attention (in the last 40 hours I've had less than four hours sleep, all in stretches of an hour or less, so playing in the dark hasn't been a top priority... wait, then what am I doing here at 3am!), I've probably spent more time photographing it than using it so far. I intend to fix that soon though...




Russki said:


> Also old HDS clip will fit nicely with little modification.


Nice photos, Russki. That Arc clip looks great on there, I'm glad to see the old designs are still an option for those who want them.




bullfrog said:


> Very eager to buy a Clicky but just wondering, for those of you who own a Clicky 140-CN *AND* Twisty 85-TR:
> 
> Is the beam patter and tint pretty much identical? Other than that, I'm assuming the difference in lumens from 85 to 100 is not noticible...


I'm sure you'll be able to get a response to this soon enough, but I don't think there is anyone with a 140Cn just yet. However, I would guess that your predictions are all correct. I don't think the exact same led is being used though, so we'll have to wait and see if there are any small differences in these areas.


----------



## luxlover (Dec 5, 2008)

Welcome back to the loooong post club, Saturn. Of all your pearls of wisdom, the one that impressed me the most is this one....._"I think this one is at least very nearly perfectly perpendicular, I took a little more time to get the emitter right in the center. Oh and I tried to get this shot extra pink, just for Jeff."

_You have certainly "pinkified" that shot to my dismay. I think that I know why, too. Since I don't see that eyesore of a 0.001" gap anymore, you probably filled it in with ABC bubble gum! (ABC = Already Been Chewed).  

I hope you know that I have been yanking your chain with the gap, color and alignment crap? We all know that it is immaterial in the real world. So let's  and rejoice over these lights whether received or not!

Jeff


----------



## luxlover (Dec 5, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> In the interest of honesty, it is true that Jeff and I were discussing how to take macro shots just a few nights ago.


In the interest of honesty, Saturn is an accomplished hobby photographer, whereas I am still in diapers!


----------



## tsl (Dec 5, 2008)

luxlover said:


> ... I dismantled the head of my Twisty entirely. The head and light module are the only parts that cannot be separated, since you glued them together.


 
Does this mean that an emitter swap down the road will be difficult if not impossible on the Clicky (either production or prototype)?


----------



## luxlover (Dec 5, 2008)

tsl said:


> Does this mean that an emitter swap down the road will be difficult, if not impossible, on the Clicky (either production or prototype)?


I am not sure how the emitter is mounted on the Prototype or production Clicky. But from what I saw on the Twisty, it is physically _possible_. I believe that they are mounted the same way in the Clicky. But remember that Henry calibrates the power supply of his lights with the emitter installed, and an emitter swap may not gain much over the stock emitter. I am sure that some wild and wacky people on CPF will do a swap and tell us their outcomes. So for now, I suggest that we enjoy our lights straight out of the box.


----------



## Robertesq1 (Dec 5, 2008)

youreacrab said:


> Two weeks for me. Ordered Nov 21; received Dec 4.


Wow... Where, pray tell did you order from??




Q


:
Originally Posted by Robertesq1
Not to get back on topic or anything....
How far down the list are they and what's the wait for someone who is just ordering now???
That's right said:


> http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/sho...95&postcount=1[/url]
> 
> Jeff



Thanks and hope you understood I was (trying) to be funny.

Robert


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## luxlover (Dec 5, 2008)

Robertesq1 said:


> Thanks and hope you understood I was (trying) to be funny.
> 
> Robert


Robert,
Not only were you trying to be funny, you succeeded. We were hot and heavy _on an off-topic_ mode yesterday and it couldn't hurt getting back to the glory of the Clicky. As more people receive their lights, we will see more light oriented chatter. We are just killing time. Just because I have my light, doesn't mean that I am not anxious for others to receive theirs and to start posting their impressions, etc. I look at every Clicky owner as my bro' and a sis'.

Jeff


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## Kamakazikev24 (Dec 5, 2008)

AAARHHHGGGGGG!!!!

I Can't wait to get this light!

Come on Henry, Get some of these bad boys shipped over to England!


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## luxlover (Dec 5, 2008)

Kamakazikev24 said:


> AAARHHHGGGGGG!!!!
> 
> I Can't wait to get this light!
> 
> Come on Henry, Get some of these bad boys shipped over to England!


I can't wait until YOU get this light too, Kam!

I don't know what is the problem. They have a great waterproof rating and should easily make it over The Pond to Merry Ol' England? 
Jeff


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## cabbynate (Dec 5, 2008)

Well out of the few people that have received there Clicky there have not been any in the BST forum. That's a good sign!!!:thumbsup:


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## luxlover (Dec 5, 2008)

cabbynate said:


> Well out of the few people that have received there Clicky there have not been any in the BST forum. That's a good sign!!!:thumbsup:


Please don't give anybody any ideas! I just had my lunch and I want it to stay "down!" 

I have seen lights that have been bought, and then sold on B/S/T the next day.....limited availability lights of great value.....with long waits before receiving them. But for the niche of flashaholics who have followed Henry's pathway into flashlight history, I cannot fathom this happening with the Clicky. :shakehead


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## orcinus (Dec 5, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> Gee golly... I snap a shot of my emitter without even really paying any attention to the minor gap on one side, and now people all over the world are discussing my horrifying misalignment!



Well, i do have to pass the time 'till i get my Clicky _somehow_,don't i?


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## luxlover (Dec 5, 2008)

orcinus said:


> Well, i do have to pass the time 'till i get my Clicky _somehow_,don't i?


Ante,
Don't you just love Saturn's reference to his emitter picture, "my horrifying misalignment?"  Very melodramatic. He must be a thespian! :thinking:


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## orcinus (Dec 5, 2008)

:laughing:


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## thermal guy (Dec 5, 2008)

I have a very special technique to fix off center emitters.Anyone have one that is really bugging them just send it my way and i will take care of it for you.Mind you it might take two or three months You just can't rush these things you know.But rest assured i will take good care of it.


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## luxlover (Dec 5, 2008)

thermal guy said:


> I have a very special technique to fix off center emitters. If anyone have one that is really bugging them, just send it my way and I will take care of it for you. Mind you, it might take two or three months.  You just can't rush these things you know. But rest assured I will take good care of it.


You are a gentleman and a scholar, Dan. Email me your _laboratory_ address and I will put my Clicky on my fastest pony. You see, my six day old Clicky has a serious emitter/reflector centering problem, with a 0.0001" visible gap. I am afraid that it is affecting my light's dispersion pattern.

The two or three month downtime is of no consequence, since I can use my beloved 100TwTwisty during it's absence. Then when I receive back the Clicky, I can send you my Twisty. It has a 0.00001" visible gap, and needs dire care. No fee is too steep for this service. In fact, it's a bargain. 















Jeff
Perfectionist


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## tsl (Dec 5, 2008)

luxlover said:


> I am not sure how the emitter is mounted on the Prototype or production Clicky. But from what I saw on the Twisty, it is physically _possible_. I believe that they are mounted the same way in the Clicky. But remember that Henry calibrates the power supply of his lights with the emitter installed, and an emitter swap may not gain much over the stock emitter. I am sure that some wild and wacky people on CPF will do a swap and tell us their outcomes. So for now, I suggest that we enjoy our lights straight out of the box.


 
So, if a visibly brighter emitter comes out in the future, are you saying that an emitter swap wouldn't take advantage of the brighter LED due to the calibration of the power supply? If that's the case, what's the incentive to upgrade the LED? Why have we seen a number of Seoul upgrades to the HDS EDC lights ... wouldn't it be the same situation?

I guess I really don't understand. Can you provide some illumination (no pun intended)?:thinking:


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## Splunk_Au (Dec 5, 2008)

If that's the case then i assume the incentive would obviously be longer runtimes.


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## StandardBattery (Dec 5, 2008)

I think the basic deal here is the current is already set, for each level. So if the emitter is swapped the increase in output would only be based on the improved efficiency of the new emitter. 

*Thats the Theory*, however I'm not sure if we know whether the calibration establishes a constant current regardless of load, or establishes a constant voltage that produces the desired current. Chances are that any LED with a lower Vf would produce a higher output, but it might draw more current, so runtime would be affected.

I guess the key is during the emmiter swap it's not really possible to adjust the drive for the specific emitter, you get what you get. 

I would not worry about it. It seems the circuit design that is being used right now is really nice with 85lm lights... just get 85 or slightly better and buy a second light like one of the EagleTac for you're "HI". it's two lights, but right now it seems that NovaTac and Ra have a lot to offer under 100 lumens, but that's it. It's probably better, more reliable, and better engineering to use a two light solution at this time. Or live with 100 Lumens.


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## orcinus (Dec 5, 2008)

StandardBattery said:


> *Thats the Theory*, however I'm not sure if we know whether the calibration establishes a constant current regardless of load, or establishes a constant voltage that produces the desired current. Chances are that any LED with a lower Vf would produce a higher output, but it might draw more current, so runtime would be affected.



AFAIK, it's a constant power driver, so it will adjust both (or, rather, adjust the current to match the Vf).


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## Axion (Dec 5, 2008)

Henry has stated that his lights are current controlled so a lower Vf will result in longer run times, not higher output. If one were two swap in an emitter with a higher flux bin it should produce more output proportional to the increase in flux per mA. At least that's my understanding.



StandardBattery said:


> *Thats the Theory*, however I'm not sure if we know whether the calibration establishes a constant current regardless of load, or establishes a constant voltage that produces the desired current. Chances are that any LED with a lower Vf would produce a higher output, but it might draw more current, so runtime would be affected.


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## orcinus (Dec 5, 2008)

Axion said:


> Henry has stated that his lights are current controlled so a lower Vf will result in longer run times, not higher output. If one were two swap in an emitter with a higher flux bin it should produce more output proportional to the increase in flux per mA. At least that's my understanding.



That _would_ work like that if it were recalibrated after the emitter swap (to the calibrated, i.e. "normal" output level). But i'm not sure it would if it weren't.

Henry?


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## tebore (Dec 6, 2008)

From dealing with a number of the old EDC lights. 

This is what will/can happen if you swap LEDs.

The runtime can only be the same or worse. If the VF is higher than stock it'll be less. If the VF is lower the light just be slightly brighter.

If a more efficient LED is used for the upgrade it will be brighter. 

The converter used is constant power not just current.


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## bullfrog (Dec 6, 2008)

bullfrog said:


> I've really enjoyed following this thread for the past few months!
> 
> Very eager to buy a Clicky but just wondering, for those of you who own a Clicky 140-CN (not Cgt) *AND* Twisty 85-TR:
> 
> ...



?


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## HDS_Systems (Dec 6, 2008)

StandardBattery, Axion,

The power supply produces constant POWER, per the specifications. Our flashlights are the only flashlights in the industry to use constant power - in spite of what another manufacturer claims. Power is not the same as voltage or current. Each setting is calibrated based on power required to produce the required output flux (i.e., lumens). Using constant power automatically compensates for most of the die temperature issues - something that constant current and constant voltage cannot do.

If the new LED produces more light at the same power, you will receive benefit. The problem is, there is no way to know prior to the swap how much more efficient the new LED is relative to the old LED. The runtimes on each setting will stay mostly the same following an LED swap.

Bullfrog,

The beam pattern of the Ra-85-Tr and the Ra-140-Cn will be the same. The beam pattern of the Ra-100-T and the Ra-140-C will be the same. The Ra-85-Tr and the Ra-140-Cn beam patterns are narrower and have a longer throw than the Ra-100-T and the Ra-140-C beam patterns. The increase in throw distance is roughly 20%.

Henry.


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## SaturnNyne (Dec 6, 2008)

bullfrog said:


> ?


I already slipped in a response to you at the end of my post here, but you may have missed it amidst all the surrounding clutter that tends to accumulate when my fingers meet the keyboard, kicking up dust with a thousand practiced movements, with the pace and ferocity of a flamenco dancer after a super-sized siesta. Err.. ahem. Now that Henry has confirmed that the beam will be the same, we just have to wait and see if it will have the same range of typical tints. However, from what I've heard about the dragons, I'm not anticipating any change even if the emitter isn't exactly the same model. It will likely continue to be a slightly cool white, often with a refreshing hint of lavenderyness, sometimes a pleasant pinch of yellow in the corona. Also, I've found that they have surprisingly good color rendition for their cool tint. As for the difference in outputs, it kind of depends on your eyes and definition of noticeable. However, from a practical standpoint, yes it's true that 85 to 100 is not a noticeable increase.




luxlover said:


> You have certainly "pinkified" that shot to my dismay. I think that I know why, too. Since I don't see that eyesore of a 0.001" gap anymore, you probably filled it in with ABC bubble gum! (ABC = Already Been Chewed).


Yup, good eye; bubble gummed the gaps, ripped off the gummy dome, and added a second die made of a cupcake sprinkle. I have a hunch this is the same method thermal guy is offering with his service, since moving the die itself probably isn't a good option in this case. I'm not sure why it takes him so long though. Perhaps he has to personally test and sort a lot of gum due to notoriously high confectionary manufacturing tolerances? Also I hear the manufacturer of the sprinkles will no longer be making them in the proper red, so better grab this delicious option while you can.


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## orcinus (Dec 6, 2008)

tebore said:


> From dealing with a number of the old EDC lights.
> This is what will/can happen if you swap LEDs.
> The runtime can only be the same or worse. If the VF is higher than stock it'll be less. If the VF is lower the light just be slightly brighter.
> If a more efficient LED is used for the upgrade it will be brighter.
> The converter used is constant power not just current.



That's how i understood it too...
If the Vf is lower, the driver will probably actually _increase_ the current, the output will go up a bit and the runtimes down.


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## paxxus (Dec 6, 2008)

orcinus said:


> That's how i understood it too...
> If the Vf is lower, the driver will probably actually _increase_ the current, the output will go up a bit and the runtimes down.


The runtime will not be affected greatly by an emitter swap as per Henry's post. This is a direct consequence of the constant power design, since the power drain from the battery is the same (I * Vf = P).


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## Kamakazikev24 (Dec 6, 2008)

Why change what looks to be a perfectly made light!
An led matched to it's driver 

Your not going to find better until Henry makes a new one LOL.


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## luxlover (Dec 6, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> I already slipped in a response to you at the end of my post here, but you may have missed it amidst all the surrounding clutter that tends to accumulate when my fingers meet the keyboard, kicking up dust with a thousand practiced movements, with the pace and ferocity of a flamenco dancer after a super-sized siesta. Err.. ahem. Now that Henry has confirmed that the beam will be the same, we just have to wait and see if it will have the same range of typical tints. However, from what I've heard about the dragons, I'm not anticipating any change even if the emitter isn't exactly the same model. It will likely continue to be a slightly cool white, often with a refreshing hint of lavenderyness, sometimes a pleasant pinch of yellow in the corona. Also, I've found that they have surprisingly good color rendition for their cool tint. As for the difference in outputs, it kind of depends on your eyes and definition of noticeable. However, from a practical standpoint, yes it's true that 85 to 100 is not a noticeable increase.
> 
> Yup, good eye; bubble gummed the gaps, ripped off the gummy dome, and added a second die made of a cupcake sprinkle. I have a hunch this is the same method thermal guy is offering with his service, since moving the die itself probably isn't a good option in this case. I'm not sure why it takes him so long though. Perhaps he has to personally test and sort a lot of gum due to notoriously high confectionary manufacturing tolerances? Also I hear the manufacturer of the sprinkles will no longer be making them in the proper red, so better grab this delicious option while you can.


Just think, if you *hadn't* listened to the person in the thread asking that you post a macro of your light's emitter, then I would not be crying tears of joy (joyful laughter) after reading all of your profound posts. It just proves that flashlight collecting is not all about lights. It is also about the human/flashlight relationship and how it differs between people. People who are so serious about this hobby that they cannot have a jolly good time with others on CPF, are missing out on so much. The same applies to any hobby.

By the way, Saturn's emails are just as clever and entertaining.

Jeff
Philosophically Challenged Philosopher


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## orcinus (Dec 6, 2008)

paxxus said:


> The runtime will not be affected greatly by an emitter swap as per Henry's post. This is a direct consequence of the constant power design, since the power drain from the battery is the same (I * Vf = P).



Actually, there should be _some_ runtime consequences, depending on the Vf of the emitter vs. battery voltage, because the efficiency of the driver will change depending on the Vout vs. Vin.


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## luxlover (Dec 6, 2008)

I had modmeister _milkyspit_ swap a Seoul P4 (not U2 bin) into my stock EDC U60 about 1.5 years ago. When he buys his supply of emitters, he presorts them in several categories with a Vf tester he made. When a customer has him do a swap, he asks if a greater output or a greater runtime  is desired. From that reply, he picks an emitter that will do the job. I wanted his mod to give me maximum output. So he removed the stock Luxeon III TWOJ emitter (marked on the front end of the light module), chose a Seoul that had a lower Vf than the stock emitter and thermal epoxied it to the heatsink. Based on his calculations and my crude tests using my MeterMan LM-631 luxmeter and my other stock U60 as my benchmark, we estimate the output to be about 140lm, give or take!!!

Note that the efficiency of emitters improved nicely from the time Henry manufactured his U60s, to the time my mod was implimented. I have no idea how the runtime has changed from the before to the after condition, but since Henry's power supply is constant power regulated and not current or voltage regulated, it can be assumed that the runtime will be pretty much the same as before the mod. As has been discussed above, an emitter with a low Vf will yield greater output, as long as the stock vs replacement Vf's are not too close to each other.

For now, I think that it would be wise to leave our Clickys as is, until the Seoul or Osram emitters, for which the Clicky has been designed, show greater efficiencies. At that point, there will be some of us who can't resist doing an emitter swap, and we will surely hear about it "through the grapevine."

Jeff


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## h2oflyer (Dec 6, 2008)

Why would anyone want to change the emitter?

I was origanally interested in the Clicky because of the Seoul SSC P4
emitter - have one in another light and think it an excellent beam. 

I'm here to learn


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## paxxus (Dec 6, 2008)

h2oflyer said:


> Why would anyone want to change the emitter?
> 
> I was origanally interested in the Clicky because of the Seoul SSC P4
> emitter - have one in another light and think it an excellent beam.
> ...


No one would at this time. However, the ease with which the emitter can be changed at a later point can be a factor when purchasing an expensive light. HDS/Ra lights are virtually indestructible and will basically last forever, but in a year or two LED technology might have moved far enough ahead that an emitter change can be beneficial. For example my old HDS is still going strong and the emitter upgrade I did _doubled_ the output. If this wasn't possible I probably wouldn't use this light as much, which would be a shame given how expensive it was. In short, a light offering an easy upgrade path is a better investment.


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## luxlover (Dec 6, 2008)

h2oflyer said:


> Why would anyone want to change the emitter?
> 
> I was origanally interested in the Clicky because of the Seoul SSC P4
> emitter - have one in another light and think it an excellent beam.
> ...


....and we are here to learn you something!  Keep in mind that even Seoul P4s will improve over time, at the very minimum, in the category of efficiency. My modded U60 uses the first generation Seoul P4. Seoul now has a U2 version of the P4, which gives more light for the same unit of power as the original P4.

As you can see, Henry has offered a Clicky model using an Osram Golden Dragon emitter, something he first introduced in his Twisty lights. It is too soon to tell how Seoul and Osram compare in the efficiency area, since Osrams have not been used in production lights until recently. Osram has been around almost since the dinosaurs, but the Golden Dragon is their first emitter in the form factor used in our EDC lights.

It would make no sense at all, if we just let technology pass us by when we could have the same light in our hand yielding more light output.

Jeff


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## SaturnNyne (Dec 6, 2008)

luxlover said:


> It just proves that flashlight collecting is not all about lights. It is also about the human/flashlight relationship and how it differs between people. People who are so serious about this hobby that they cannot have a jolly good time with others on CPF, are missing out on so much. The same applies to any hobby.


A profound observation that I strongly agree with, thank you. I'd say that the human/flashlight relationship and the celebration of it is at the very core of my private light stories blog that I showed you. That idea of a simple little illumination tool proving to have such tremendous value to so many people in so many different ways is kind of inspiring to me. I love to look back on the good memories of situations where the light I was carrying performed a vital service or helped someone else, or a friend's story of how a light I may have influenced them to carry was there for them when they needed it. To paraphrase a friend of mine, a good edc flashlight is a friend for life.




paxxus said:


> No one would at this time.


Oh don't be so sure... coughdiscoverEDCcoughcough


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## luxlover (Dec 6, 2008)

paxxus said:


> No one would at this time. However, the ease with which the emitter can be changed at a later point can be a factor when purchasing an expensive light. HDS/Ra lights are virtually indestructible and will basically last forever, but in a year or two LED technology might have moved far enough ahead that an emitter change can be beneficial. For example my old HDS is still going strong and the emitter upgrade I did _doubled_ the output. If this wasn't possible I probably wouldn't use this light as much, which would be a shame given how expensive it was. In short, a light offering an easy upgrade path is a better investment.


Eloquently stated, Sir! :thumbsup:


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## luxlover (Dec 6, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> A profound observation that I strongly agree with, thank you. I'd say that the human/flashlight relationship and the celebration of it is at the very core of my private light stories blog that I showed you. That idea of a simple little illumination tool proving to have such tremendous value to so many people in so many different ways is kind of inspiring to me. I love to look back on the good memories of situations where the light I was carrying performed a vital service or helped someone else, or a friend's story of how a light I may have influenced them to carry was there for them when they needed it. To paraphrase a friend of mine, a good edc flashlight is a friend for life.


Truer words have not been uttered! I will take this one step further, with LightHound's website motto....."man's best friend for flashlights....." Gee, even a merchant's business model is to be good to our flashlights, just as "a dog is man's best friend" is to a dog owner. Are you listening, ChocolateLab33? :nana: Where has the gal been hiding?

Jeff


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## matrixshaman (Dec 6, 2008)

Would it be correct to assume that the reflector in a 140CN will be slightly different than in the 140C as the Golden Dragon emitter is smaller? I'd really like to go for a 140CN but I don't want to lose a ton of spill.


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## gottawearshades (Dec 6, 2008)

:thinking: Down the road, would it be as easy to replace an emitter in a Cn as it would be in a C - model?


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## luxlover (Dec 6, 2008)

matrixshaman said:


> Would it be correct to assume that the reflector in a 140Cn will be slightly different than in the 140C as the Golden Dragon emitter is smaller? I'd really like to go for a 140Cn, but I don't want to lose a ton of spill.


I am trying to figure out how Henry could place different length or different diameter reflectors in the same head? I was under the impression that the lights are identical except for the emitter installed on each heatsink! I think that Henry would have to answer such a question.

A ton of spill is a huge amount. Henry's lights have always been portable utility lights, with the ability to handle any lighting task asked of it. While the Cn will surely offer more throw, it will not reduce the sidespill to an unusable level. It would not make sense to do this.

Jeff


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## cave dave (Dec 6, 2008)

It's pretty hard to predict the future. If the next Gen of high efficiency LED's have a differnt form factor or die height it could be very difficult. If its the same LED just a brighter bin it should be no problem in either case.


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## luxlover (Dec 6, 2008)

I have been reading posts stating that our 140 lights exhibit very little visual difference between the 140lm burst and the 100lm sustained levels. Although our brains are not wired to perceive light in a linear manner, I have come to the conclusion that 140lm is an appreciable increase in output over 100lm....._under the right conditions._ It is true that when one shines a Clicky on a wall and jumps from burst to high, then the 40% increase in output IS NOT perceived as such. But try doing this to prove my point.

Go into as long and as dark a room as you can find with a light colored ceiling, aim your light at the ceiling at one end of the room and keep your focus on the other end. Go from high to burst repetitively, and notice how much more the room is illuminated on burst. Note that both levels are coming out of the same light and that they are bouncing off the same point in the room. This ceiling bounce test is the next best test to compare luminous output levels, without resorting to an integrating sphere. The actual lumen value is not important. How the room is illuminated by different outputs.....IS!

Consider the mathematical difference between 100lm and 140lm. If our brains were wired linearly, then the 40lm increase would perceptually translate into another 40% throw and 40% spill. It is not. But Henry has posted and science has proven, that a 40% increase in output on paper translates to a 19% increase in the perception of throw and spill. That means that if a 100lm output can be seen 100ft. from the light, then a 140lm output can be seen 119ft. from the light. I am going to see for myself, if I can find a dark area in my heavily lit NYC neigborhood. Here is an excerpt from Henry's FAQ. page....."In general, you need to increase the light output by 40% for most people to easily recognize the increase in light output. That is, you would need to go from 85 lumens to 120 lumens in order to easily notice the difference. This translates into a 19% increase in beam throw."
 
My plan, although not 100% scientific, is to find a distance that I can measure using my footsteps, a distance at which point I can just barely see the light at 100lm. Then I will go to burst mode and take steps backwards until I can just barely see it. The added steps compared to the distance at 100lm will tell me how much farther a 140lm output can be seen compared to a 100lm output.

I welcome anybody else to do this, since this is an idea that I may not be able to impliment in my neigborhood. If any of you have a laser measuring device, your job would be easier. Try to find a terrain where it is as dark as possible, so that ambient light will not mask your dark adapted eyes, and the results.

Jeff


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## SaturnNyne (Dec 6, 2008)

matrixshaman said:


> Would it be correct to assume that the reflector in a 140CN will be slightly different than in the 140C as the Golden Dragon emitter is smaller? I'd really like to go for a 140CN but I don't want to lose a ton of spill.


The Narrow and Wide beams are primarily different in the width of their spots. Also, it seems the Wide beams not only have a wider spot but slightly more light put into the spill, but that's just based on what I've heard. The limiting factor on the width of the spill is the angle between the point of light emission and the edge of the bezel, since spill light is, by definition, light that is not being influenced by the reflector. If you ask Henry, he'll tell you the two models have basically the same spill width. My comparisons between my Twisty Tr and 140C have shown that the Wide Clicky has an ever so slightly but insignificantly wider spill than the Narrow Twisty, but I have to line them up on a wall to tell. I think this is because the Osram die is both smaller and a little lower/flatter, creating a more acute angle with the bezel opening. Or maybe it just seems flatter because it doesn't have a dome. I assume the Cn will be the same as the Tr and that I'm seeing a difference between Narrow and Wide, not a difference between Twisty and Clicky.



85Tr vs 140Cgt
I think this shot actually overemphasizes the spill difference. Not sure they're perfectly aligned but they're at least basically same distance from wall.




gottawearshades said:


> :thinking: Down the road, would it be as easy to replace an emitter in a Cn as it would be in a C - model?


No, I don't think so. I haven't opened them up to have a look yet, but I think I've been told that the two models are put together a bit differently. And you can see from close macros that the two emitters are physically very different. I'm not entirely certain of how big the differences are though, I'm kind of speculating.


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## Reima (Dec 6, 2008)

I finally got around to taking Henry's little family of lights for a spin in my "poorman's lightbox" the results are as follows:

Twisty 120TW maximum 2220 lux

Clicky 140C burst 2700 lux, maximum 1950 lux

Proto 140C burst 2750 lux, maximum 2010 lux

HDS U60 (Seoul) maximum 2400 lux

RC


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## orcinus (Dec 6, 2008)

matrixshaman said:


> Would it be correct to assume that the reflector in a 140CN will be slightly different than in the 140C as the Golden Dragon emitter is smaller? I'd really like to go for a 140CN but I don't want to lose a ton of spill.



I don't think it necessarily should... The whole point of the Golden Dragon emitter is to get a tighter beam. The reason it is tighter is, in part, because the emitter area is smaller.


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## HDS_Systems (Dec 6, 2008)

Orcinus,



orcinus said:


> Actually, there should be _some_ runtime consequences, depending on the Vf of the emitter vs. battery voltage, because the efficiency of the driver will change depending on the Vout vs. Vin.



Actually not. Since the power fed to the emitter is the same regardless, if you swap emitters, the power to the new LED is still the same. Since the output power remains essentially constant, the input power remains essentially constant under similar conditions of input voltage - i.e., state of charge of the battery. Again, the standard proviso applies: all other factors being equal.

LuxLover,

Lower Vf is not a guarantee of higher efficiency. In fact, I can easily show you examples where the lower Vf is way less efficient. The only thing that counts is power in and light out.

Now that is not to say that some LED drivers require lower Vf in order to work or that because of poor regulation characteristics they require lower Vf for maximum output.

The only time a lower Vf translates into higher efficiency is when it translates into lower input power for the same light out.

H2OFlyer,

People are discussing a future LED swap - future being a year or two or three down the road when LED efficiencies have improved. LED efficiencies have been increasing around 20 to 25% each year for the past many decades and there is no reason to assume this will not continue to happen for at least the next 5 years. Therefore, in two more years there will be LEDs that are likely to be 40 to 50% higher output for the same input power. That is when it might make sense to swap emitters.

MatrixShaman,

You will not loose any spill by choosing the Cn over the C model.

GotTaWearShades,

That is difficult to know. My guess is that they will be equally easy/difficult to mod. It all depends on what LEDs are available at that time.

Henry.


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## matrixshaman (Dec 6, 2008)

Thanks SaturnNyne and thanks Henry for your help on the C/Cn differnces. Does anyone have info on availability at this time of the C and Cn models? Will there likely be some available in the next week or two?


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## Kamakazikev24 (Dec 7, 2008)

I know I have mentioned this before but, now people have there lights. 
Has anyone found away to attach a lanyard?
The price of this light means I don't wanna lose it, LOL. 
I mentioned a circlip before but that will maybe affect water ingress and I know you can tie a lanyard round the narrow middle bit, but that doesn't look that great.
Someone said that when the clip arrives you can attach to that, does that mean it will have a hole in it? 
Like I said there must be away as I Dont want to lose it when I get it!
Kam.


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## luxlover (Dec 7, 2008)

HDS_Systems said:


> LuxLover,
> Lower Vf is not a guarantee of higher efficiency. In fact, I can easily show you examples where the lower Vf is way less efficient. The only thing that counts is power in and light out.
> 
> Now that is not to say that some LED drivers require lower Vf in order to work or that because of poor regulation characteristics they require lower Vf for maximum output.
> ...


Henry,
Thank you for the rude awakening about input/output power readings and their effect on light output. I have to brush up on my science, as it seems that I have become rusty, dusty and musty! :sigh:

Jeff


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## orcinus (Dec 7, 2008)

HDS_Systems said:


> Orcinus,
> 
> 
> 
> Actually not. Since the power fed to the emitter is the same regardless, if you swap emitters, the power to the new LED is still the same. Since the output power remains essentially constant, the input power remains essentially constant under similar conditions of input voltage - i.e., state of charge of the battery. Again, the standard proviso applies: all other factors being equal.



Yes, i got that... What i'm saying is, the _efficiency_ of a typical DC-DC converter changes depending on the difference in voltage between Vin and Vout. If you change Vf of the emitter, the Vout will change, resulting in a slightly higher or lower efficiency (depending on whether it's now closer to the battery voltage or farther away).

The output power, i.e. voltage x current, will remain the same, but the input power (current draw) will change. Slightly.

At least that's the theory...


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## discoverEDC (Dec 8, 2008)

A random comment.
Henry has done as much as humanly possible to center the emitter in the Twisty and Clicky. Take a look at the pocket that sits on top of the heatsink. I will note that the emitter is dang near press-fit into the pocket, there is NO play or slop.







I took a perfectly good 140C and replaced the emitter because I wanted a higher color rendering index (CRI) factor. This would not be something 99.9% of the CPF would do because of the loss of total output and the very nearly incan color temperature of the currently available emitter. 

I am happy with my choice and when higher output, high CRI emitters come out one of those will find a new home. Thanks to Henry for producing a fanstastic light. 

Regards,
Walt


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## StandardBattery (Dec 8, 2008)

Walt, which emitter did you drop in? Other than the improved CRI did the beam profile change much? I presume you kept the stock reflector.


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## BBL (Dec 8, 2008)

It seems the heat-sink and housing are made from one part - is that correct?


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## SaturnNyne (Dec 8, 2008)

I just did a 100lm runtime test on my 140Cgt with a US made BS primary and was very disappointed. I was expecting to get somewhere around 70 or 80 minutes. Instead, it went all the way to 105 minutes, which left me waiting to get lunch almost half an hour longer than anticipated, and I was pretty hungry. I forgive it though.

Has anyone else done some testing yet? If it weren't for the ~90 minutes TIN got on his 100Tw run, I wouldn't believe this possible. I can't 100% guarantee that I didn't miss a thermal limit somewhere, but I did keep it cooled by holding it the entire time and I compared against 120P whenever I worried that it must have dropped. It remained as warm as it ever got right up to the end, never really got hot, and the comparisons never showed any decrease in output until about the minute before the blink down. I'm pretty sure it maintained full power that entire time, but I'd certainly like some confirmation from others.


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## m16a (Dec 8, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> I just did a 100lm runtime test on my 140Cgt with a US made BS primary and was very disappointed. I was expecting to get somewhere around 70 or 80 minutes. Instead, it went all the way to 105 minutes, which left me waiting to get lunch almost half an hour longer than anticipated, and I was pretty hungry. I forgive it though.
> 
> Has anyone else done some testing yet? If it weren't for the ~90 minutes TIN got on his 100Tw run, I wouldn't believe this possible. I can't 100% guarantee that I didn't miss a thermal limit somewhere, but I did keep it cooled by holding it the entire time and I compared against 120P whenever I worried that it must have dropped. It remained as warm as it ever got right up to the end, never really got hot, and the comparisons never showed any decrease in output until about the minute before the blink down. I'm pretty sure it maintained full power that entire time, but I'd certainly like some confirmation from others.



How horrible! It made you wait a WHOLE *35* minutes extra to eat?? What a terrible consequence knowing that it runs so well on high!


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## SaturnNyne (Dec 8, 2008)

m16a said:


> How horrible! It made you wait a WHOLE *35* minutes extra to eat?? What a terrible consequence knowing that it runs so well on high!


It was horrible indeed. My stomach was rumbling and by about the 90 minute mark I was screaming, "darn it, why is this light's efficiency so _fantastic_!"


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## luxlover (Dec 8, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> I just did a 100lm runtime test on my 140Cgt with a US made BS primary and was very disappointed. I was expecting to get somewhere around 70 or 80 minutes. Instead, it went all the way to 105 minutes, which left me waiting to get lunch almost half an hour longer than anticipated, and I was pretty hungry. I forgive it though.
> 
> Has anyone else done some testing yet? If it weren't for the ~90 minutes TIN got on his 100Tw run, I wouldn't believe this possible. I can't 100% guarantee that I didn't miss a thermal limit somewhere, but I did keep it cooled by holding it the entire time and I compared against 120P whenever I worried that it must have dropped. It remained as warm as it ever got right up to the end, never really got hot, and the comparisons never showed any decrease in output until about the minute before the blink down. I'm pretty sure it maintained full power that entire time, but I'd certainly like some confirmation from others.


That scoundrel Henry dunn cheated us. He promised us 60 minutes, you expected 70 and he delivered 105. You can't trust these manufacturers to tell us the truth!  

* Henry is the best.....in the North, South, East and West! :bow: *

To add insult to injury, your stomach was growling with hunger due to it's hydrochloric acid burning holes through your stomach's mucus membrane. I like forgiving sorts like you. After all, it isn't the light's fault! By the way, what was for lunch? Anything good?

The fireceness of your surprise with the extended runtime, has caused me to capitulate and do a runtime without _hand holding_ and without a _body temp water bath_. If my 140C experiences a thermal event, it will be around the 45 minute time frame. A birdy told me this.  

Note that there will be no chance that I miss a thermal drop, because I will have my luxmeter deployed to note the starting lux reading and ending lux reading. If the start reading divided by two equals the end reading, then everything will be nominal. If it shows less than that, then a thermal event occurred and I have to scratch the results. This would mean that my light needs help to keep it cool!

Don't anybody leave town until you read my runtime result. :shakehead 

Jeff


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## luxlover (Dec 8, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> It was horrible indeed. My stomach was rumbling and by about the 90 minute mark I was screaming, "darn it, why is this light's efficiency so _fantastic_!"


I feel for you, man! I don't think that there is any other light that can make it's owner suffer in such a reprehensible way! Can you think of any?

 Almost ready to suffer as you have! Charging AW cell to 100% capacity. High level locked at level 22.

Jeff


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## grinsekatz (Dec 8, 2008)

luxlover said:


> ...
> 
> Don't anybody leave town until you read my runtime result. :shakehead
> 
> Jeff


 
Due to following this thread I've already become a mouse potato.
I couldn't leave even if I wanted to. 

Alex


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## SaturnNyne (Dec 8, 2008)

luxlover said:


> By the way, what was for lunch? Anything good?


Only the best: natural peanut butter and strawberry jam on sourdough. I had to make up for the long wait.

Thanks for getting on that runtime, I look forward to your results. Perhaps you might take lux readings periodically, to get a sense of how stable it is? Will you be using primary or RCR? Edit: Nevermind, you already answered.




grinsekatz said:


> Due to following this thread I've already become a mouse potato.


Yeah a good cpf thread will have that effect. I've recently spent many days just being a Clicky mouse potato.


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## m16a (Dec 8, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> It was horrible indeed. My stomach was rumbling and by about the 90 minute mark I was screaming, "darn it, why is this light's efficiency so _fantastic_!"




I feel so terribly for you!! In fact, I fear for my safety as well! Perhaps MY clicky will feel compelled to act in such a torturous manner to me as well! :mecry:


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## luxlover (Dec 8, 2008)

BBL said:


> It seems the heat-sink and housing are made from one part - is that correct?


Colleague tebore states that you are correct. Read here..... https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2731941&postcount=10 and https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2731968&postcount=12

Jeff


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## luxlover (Dec 8, 2008)

grinsekatz said:


> Due to following this thread I've already become a mouse potato.
> I couldn't leave even if I wanted to.
> 
> Alex


Alex,
That is a great term for a pc addict. Zayer gut! Have a plate of spaetzle and some knockwurst mit sauerkraut while you wait.

Jeff


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## luxlover (Dec 8, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> Only the best: natural peanut butter and strawberry jam on sourdough. I had to make up for the long wait.
> 
> Thanks for getting on that runtime, I look forward to your results. Perhaps you might take lux readings periodically, to get a sense of how stable it is? Will you be using primary or RCR? Edit: Nevermind, you already answered.
> 
> Yeah a good cpf thread will have that effect. I've recently spent many days just being a Clicky mouse potato.


Natural or chunky PB? Jam? Why not preserves, while you already in _spreading mode_?

I am utterly surprised at you. After all that I have been learning you in the past, don't you know that Henry's lights are flat in output from start to finish. I am serious. I did about twenty runs of my stock U60 using every R123 cell in my arsenal. The luxmeter was very very steady from beginning to end.

Jeff


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## luxlover (Dec 8, 2008)

m16a said:


> I feel so terribly for you!! In fact, I fear for my safety as well! Perhaps MY Clicky will feel compelled to act in such a torturous manner toward me as well! :mecry:


Howdy Jason! How about doing your first official runtime on your 140C Clicky? Whatever you do, eat a meal _before_ you start! 

Jeff
Clicky Cheerleader


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## m16a (Dec 8, 2008)

luxlover said:


> Howdy Jason! How about doing your first official runtime on your 140C Clicky? Whatever you do, eat a meal _before_ you start!
> 
> Jeff
> Clicky Cheerleader




Sadly, I have no efficient method of doing a runtime test, I have no equipment with which to run a test (no volt meter, no lux meter, etc.) so all I could use would be me peepers! Not a good test. Perhaps sometime in the future! :thumbsup:


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## SaturnNyne (Dec 8, 2008)

luxlover said:


> Natural or chunky PB? Jam? Why not preserves, while you already in _spreading mode_?
> 
> I am utterly surprised at you. After all that I have been learning you in the past, don't you know that Henry's lights are flat in output from start to finish. I am serious. I did about twenty runs of my stock U60 using every R123 cell in my arsenal. The luxmeter was very very steady from beginning to end.


Smooth unsalted. It came down to strawberry jam or blueberry preserves. I was feeling more red than blue.

I realize the regulation in these is more or less ruler flat, but why not confirm just how flat? I think I've seen some minor slopes in their runtime graphs, especially immediately before the first step down, as I recall.


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## grinsekatz (Dec 8, 2008)

luxlover said:


> Alex,
> That is a great term for a pc addict. Zayer gut! Have a plate of spaetzle and some knockwurst mit sauerkraut while you wait.
> 
> Jeff


 
Jeff,
That's a good idea. There is already a rumble in the jung... er stomach.

Alex


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## DM51 (Dec 8, 2008)

Please continue here.


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