# Best battery chemistry for cold temperatures



## odessit (Sep 18, 2008)

I have TK20 and L2D that will be left in a non-garaged cars in upstate NY. Temperature goes to -10F (-23C), sometimes hits -20F (-29C).

I did a search on this board and found the following thread:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/200591
Is the information contained in this thread is still curent/correct?

Energizer e2 lithium AA L91 -40°C to 60°C
Sanyo Eneloop AA - Discharge - 0 - 50 degC
Alk Energizer E91 AA -18°C to 55°C (0°F to 130°F)

Should I leave Eneloops & 2700 AA usage to warmer months and pick up e2 for the in-car flashlights?


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## Marduke (Sep 18, 2008)

*Re: AA battery for cold winters (up to -20F) in a car*

For below 0F, Energizer L91's are the best (only) choice.


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## StarHalo (Sep 18, 2008)

*Re: AA battery for cold winters (up to -20F) in a car*

The Energizer Lithiums not only survive extreme temperature differences best, but they also last longest when stored/not in use. Alkalines aren't known for storage longevity, and Eneloops' self-discharge rate climbs parallel to ambient temperatures. A lithium battery in ideal conditions will last 15 years; in alternating extreme conditions it will easily outlast the average length of ownership of a car..


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## Marduke (Sep 18, 2008)

*Re: AA battery for cold winters (up to -20F) in a car*

One thing I should point out is that Eneloops will handle storage at that temperature just fine. But if you need to use the light at that temperature, you will get poor performance.

L91's are best all around because they can be used and stored year round, from very cold to very hot.


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## ltiu (Sep 18, 2008)

*Re: AA battery for cold winters (up to -20F) in a car*

Best prices for Energizer e2 Lithium (aka L91) are at Sam's Club, followed by Fry's - go to their Camera section, not their Battery section, batteries (exact same brand and type and expiry dates) are cheaper at the Camera section and then followed by Walmart.

Don't buy from anywhere else as these are expensive (by my standards) everywhere else.


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## odessit (Sep 19, 2008)

*Re: AA battery for cold winters (up to -20F) in a car*

Thanks for the answers!


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## Eugene (Sep 19, 2008)

*Re: AA battery for cold winters (up to -20F) in a car*

I don't get the walmart recommendations for batteries all the time, around here they are the most expensive place to buy batteries (most expensive for groceries but thats another thread). Sams will be the cheapest, then all the decent stores, then walmart and radio shack.

I've found eneloops to be acceptable at low temperatures, though we don't have sustained below zero, usually just a few days at a time, they may be worth testing out and see how they work for you. As someone said the self discharge parallels temperature, hot temps in the summer they discharge faster but winter they slow down.


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## odessit (Sep 19, 2008)

*Re: AA battery for cold winters (up to -20F) in a car*

Can somebody point me to the battery testing procedures? I may put some eneloops in a freezer for a while just to test them.


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## ltiu (Sep 19, 2008)

*Re: AA battery for cold winters (up to -20F) in a car*



Eugene said:


> I don't get the walmart recommendations for batteries all the time, around here they are the most expensive place to buy batteries (most expensive for groceries but thats another thread). Sams will be the cheapest, then all the decent stores, then walmart and radio shack.




Depends where you are I guess. I find the most expensive Energizer e2 Lithium (L91) batteries are from groceries and CircuitCity.

Fry's Camera section's battery prices are pretty goor $12.99 for a pack of 8 Energizer e2 Lithiums, very close to Sam's Club prices by only 50 cents if you do the calculations.


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## Marduke (Sep 19, 2008)

*Re: AA battery for cold winters (up to -20F) in a car*



ltiu said:


> Depends where you are I guess. I find the most expensive Energizer e2 Lithium (L91) batteries are from groceries and CircuitCity.
> 
> Fry's Camera section's battery prices are pretty goor $12.99 for a pack of 8 Energizer e2 Lithiums, very close to Sam's Club prices by only 50 cents if you do the calculations.



That's actually better than Sam's Club prices. $1.62 vs $1.67. Maybe the "50 cents" was a typo and should be "5 cents"?


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## ltiu (Sep 19, 2008)

*Re: AA battery for cold winters (up to -20F) in a car*



Marduke said:


> That's actually better than Sam's Club prices. $1.62 vs $1.67. Maybe the "50 cents" was a typo and should be "5 cents"?




OK, you got me there.

The Fry's I am talking about is the one at:

http://shop2.frys.com/isp/southhouston.html

Go to their Camera section and look for batteries there.

Don't go to their Battery section, batteries at their Battery section are more expensive.


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## Mr Happy (Sep 19, 2008)

*Re: AA battery for cold winters (up to -20F) in a car*



odessit said:


> Can somebody point me to the battery testing procedures? I may put some eneloops in a freezer for a while just to test them.


Do not try to charge or discharge Eneloops below 0 C/32 F though. At those temperatures the gas recombination reactions may not work fast enough and the cell will not work properly. Possibly in extreme cases it might even vent.


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## etc (Sep 19, 2008)

*Re: AA battery for cold winters (up to -20F) in a car*

cheapest L91 is on Ebay, about 1 frn /each

I wonder if CR2 lithium is also as good storage wise as L91


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## Marduke (Sep 19, 2008)

*Re: AA battery for cold winters (up to -20F) in a car*



etc said:


> cheapest L91 is on Ebay, about 1 frn /each
> 
> I wonder if CR2 lithium is also as good storage wise as L91



The L91 chemistry (lithium iron disulfied) stores better than CR2/CR123 chemistry (lithium manganese dioxide)


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## ltiu (Sep 19, 2008)

*Re: AA battery for cold winters (up to -20F) in a car*



etc said:


> cheapest L91 is on Ebay, about 1 frn /each



Yes, eBay will always have the best prices, watch out for the expiry dates though. Some L91 being sold on eBay are old.


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## etc (Sep 19, 2008)

*Re: AA battery for cold winters (up to -20F) in a car*

Mine are mostly 2012 or so.


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## bob_ninja (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: AA battery for cold winters (up to -20F) in a car*

NiMH won't really work below freezing, or will operate poorly.

Last winter I was using a B&D VPX mini-saw, around -10C (give or take)
It actually seemed to work very well, not much power loss.
So I would assume that the VPX light would work just fine (saw uses much more current).

So I would go with Lithium, rechargeable or not is your choice.


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## HarryN (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: AA battery for cold winters (up to -20F) in a car*



odessit said:


> Can somebody point me to the battery testing procedures? I may put some eneloops in a freezer for a while just to test them.



That is not really cold enough for a winter test. Most freezers are set for approx 0 F if that.

You could get some realistic results using dry ice in a cooler. Just wrap the dry ice in news paper first - can get down to about -20 F without too much trouble.


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## HarryN (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: AA battery for cold winters (up to -20F) in a car*

accidental double post


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## Eugene (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: AA battery for cold winters (up to -20F) in a car*



bob_ninja said:


> NiMH won't really work below freezing, or will operate poorly.
> 
> Last winter I was using a B&D VPX mini-saw, around -10C (give or take)
> It actually seemed to work very well, not much power loss.
> ...



B&D is the key here, remember B&D are targeting consumer grade tools so the quality of the batteries they use is pretty low end so you can't say all NiMH's behave as them. Its like saying all NiMH's self discharge fast because Energizer 2500's do.


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## Mr Happy (Sep 22, 2008)

*Re: AA battery for cold winters (up to -20F) in a car*



Eugene said:


> B&D is the key here, remember B&D are targeting consumer grade tools so the quality of the batteries they use is pretty low end so you can't say all NiMH's behave as them. Its like saying all NiMH's self discharge fast because Energizer 2500's do.


OK...so B&D are believed to be low quality, yet their products work well in testing. All products cannot be assumed to behave the same as B&D, so other more expensive and higher quality products may not work as well as B&D...?


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## Eugene (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: AA battery for cold winters (up to -20F) in a car*

You said to now use rechargeable though even though your BD worked OK, what I'm saying is B&D uses the low end cells so better quailty cells will do even better so NiMH should work fine.


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## bob_ninja (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: AA battery for cold winters (up to -20F) in a car*

Eugene,
I don't understand your point at all.
My statement is simple:
NiMH type batteries from ANY brand don't work well below freezing.
Lithium type batteries from ANY brand work much better below freezing and tend to maintain a good performance, as well as above freezing temps.

B&D VPX is just an example of my own experience. In fact, VPX uses VERY good and high quality A123 cells which I found to work very well even at -10C or lower. So VPX is an example of Lithium working well below freezing.

One winter I tried a flashlight using standard AA NiMH. In fact I loaded 9 charged cells, so it had plenty of juice. After about 5 min light diminished and then light died. I could clearly see low temperature degrading cell performance. I didn't even try any of my NiCd powered tools.


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## BackBlast (Sep 23, 2008)

*Re: AA battery for cold winters (up to -20F) in a car*

Sanyo advertised good cold weather performance on the launch of Eneloops. Unfortunately there is no data, no white paper, to quantify this. More recent NiMH tech seems to do better in the cold than older cells. I, myself, have discharged Eneloops at 0 F and saw a minimal performance drop. I wasn't able to reliably test any lower and I'm not sure how reliable my 0 F test was either due to localized heating from cell discharge with minimal air flow packed amongst the food in my freezer 

I've also run better tests in the 20 F range with minimal performance drop. The cells hold up well in the cold from my experience...

There is no danger in discharging them below freezing. Just don't charge them below freezing.

I say, give 'em a try and see how they do. Do report back and tell us about your experience. Keep a lithium cell on hand as a backup.


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## bob_ninja (Sep 24, 2008)

*Re: AA battery for cold winters (up to -20F) in a car*

Good idea 
I haven't tried my Eneloops yet, so I'll try them this winter.


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## StarHalo (Sep 24, 2008)

*Re: AA battery for cold winters (up to -20F) in a car*

LEDs do better in the cold (all the way down to -80, as far as has been tested) and batteries do better in the heat (up to about 120, no higher), good luck figuring out how to coordinate that one..

But the OP was asking about batteries for a car light, and Energizer Lithiums definitely do best in storage and temperature extremes.


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## bob_ninja (Sep 25, 2008)

*Re: AA battery for cold winters (up to -20F) in a car*

Yeah, I know testing is tricky.
Still my goal/aim is much more modest.
Few years back I used an ordinary LED light with 9 AAs, forget which brand NiMH cells (likely around 2000 mAh).
Light started working as normal, then after about 5 min started flashing a warning and shortly afterwards shut down. So it is not a question of how well cells and LED work or not, but if they'll work at all. At least for me.

This winter I would like to use the head light when clearing snow. The typical temps are in the -20C to 0C range. This light uses AAAs, so I'll try Eneloop AAAs and different power levels.

I would be happy if the light worked at all, even if I got a shorter run time. I only need an hour or so at the minimum.


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## StarHalo (Sep 25, 2008)

*Re: AA battery for cold winters (up to -20F) in a car*



bob_ninja said:


> This winter I would like to use the head light when clearing snow. The typical temps are in the -20C to 0C range. This light uses AAAs, so I'll try Eneloop AAAs and different power levels.



The light should work fine, with 30 mins to an hour less runtime, not an issue if you're only using it for an hour.


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## NeonLights (Sep 25, 2008)

*Re: AA battery for cold winters (up to -20F) in a car*

Definitely stick with lithium cells for car lights. After having countless D and AA Maglites leak in my cars over a 10-15 year period, I've switched to exclusively lithium powered lights in all five of our cars, either AA, AAA, or 123 cell lights, and I've never had one leak in the 5-6 years since I've switched. Great cold-weather performance, and when I fire up a light that has been sitting in a glove box with little or no use after two years, it works.


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## danreetz (Sep 29, 2008)

*What is the best battery chemistry for seriously cold weather?*

I live in a place where the winters routinely reach 20 below, sometimes further down. In addition to my EDC, a Nitecore D10, I would like to keep a light or two in my car. 

Basically, there are two usage scenarios here. 

1. The light which will generally be in my pocket or close to my body. Common sense says that light will probably stay warm enough to just keep using Eneloops all winter, or it can be warmed up in an internal pocket. Tell me if I'm wrong here, or if you have a better approach. 

2. The light which will be stored in an emergency kit in the car. The batteries and electronics in this light should be able to withstand repeated (daily) freezing without going totally dead. What are my options here? Lithiums?


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## Black Rose (Sep 29, 2008)

*Re: What is the best battery chemistry for seriously cold weather?*

For #1, I honestly don't know. I'd guess that Eneloops may be OK, but once it's away from your body and exposed to the cold for any length of time, it may drop off rapidly.

For #2, primary lithiums are your only real choice, whether it's CR123A, AA or AAA cells.


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## StarHalo (Sep 29, 2008)

*Re: What is the best battery chemistry for seriously cold weather?*

Any battery will do for your pocket EDC, all battery types do well in warm conditions (rechargeables will self-discharge slightly faster but not enough that you'll notice a difference). For winter cold, primary lithiums are the way to go; they're good down to -40.


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## Woods Walker (Sep 30, 2008)

*Re: What is the best battery chemistry for seriously cold weather?*



danreetz said:


> I live in a place where the winters routinely reach 20 below, sometimes further down. In addition to my EDC, a Nitecore D10, I would like to keep a light or two in my car.
> 
> Basically, there are two usage scenarios here.
> 
> ...


 
Lithiums work at -20. Found out last winter camping.


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## altis (Sep 30, 2008)

*Re: What is the best battery chemistry for seriously cold weather?*

The datasheet reckons -40 - but I've never checked this!

http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/l91.pdf


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## Marduke (Sep 30, 2008)

*Re: What is the best battery chemistry for seriously cold weather?*

For pockets close to your body, as long as the light remains above freezing, Eneloops will work fine. There will be even less self discharge than normal at room temp. If it's used for prolonged periods in the cold, you will notice a shorter battery life. But you won't know until you try in your specific circumstances.


For extended cold storage and use, lithium primaries is the way to go.


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## Eugene (Sep 30, 2008)

*Re: AA battery for cold winters (up to -20F) in a car*



bob_ninja said:


> Eugene,
> I don't understand your point at all.
> My statement is simple:
> NiMH type batteries from ANY brand don't work well below freezing.
> ...



Sometimes its hard to articulate what I want to say. Basically if the B&D did OK in cold I would expect higher end NiMH's like enloops to do better since B&D is low end stuff.


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## DM51 (Sep 30, 2008)

*Re: AA battery for cold winters (up to -20F) in a car*

2 similar threads merged.


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## MorePower (Sep 30, 2008)

*Re: AA battery for cold winters (up to -20F) in a car*



Eugene said:


> Sometimes its hard to articulate what I want to say. Basically if the B&D did OK in cold I would expect higher end NiMH's like enloops to do better since B&D is low end stuff.



The problem is you are comparing Lithium Ion cells (B&D) to NiMH cells, so it's not a valid point to make in this case, whether or not Black and Decker is "low end." The chemistry of the cells is the deciding factor in this case, as far as cold temperature performance.


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## bltkmt (Nov 14, 2008)

Bump for a slightly different question. I have an outdoor thermometer sensor here in CT that runs on a 9v battery. Alkalines don't do great in the winter, so was looking at some other chemistry 9v to try. My initial thought was a 9v rechargeable lithium...but not sure that rechargeable lithiums last in cold climates as well as primary lithiums?


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## Light Sabre (Nov 14, 2008)

There are lithium 9V batteries that are can found near the smoke detectors in some hardware stores. Found some at a Lowes.

Amazon.com: Ultra Life Battery UPVL-X 10 Year Smoke Detector Battery: Home Improvement


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## bltkmt (Nov 15, 2008)

Thanks. Do lithium rechargeables last in cold as well?


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## recycledelectrons (Jan 8, 2009)

bltkmt said:


> Thanks. Do lithium rechargeables last in cold as well?



Yes.


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## StarHalo (Jan 8, 2009)

bltkmt said:


> Thanks. Do lithium rechargeables last in cold as well?



 No rechargeables in extreme hot or cold conditions!

If you know it's going to be below zero, play it safe and use a lithium primary.


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## arpit (Jan 9, 2009)

Using a Fenix l2T powered by AA batteries whilst cycling fast in temperatures of 0 to -10, I am lucky to get 15 minutes of run time. If you can find a way of keeping the torch warm, you will be fine. Otherwise, use lithiums. I have a water bottle full of very warm water, which is pleasant to drink, and heats the light up when I squirt it on it.


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## mpteach (Jan 12, 2009)

I know extreme heat can cook rechargeable lithium but what's wrong with storing/using LiCo and LiMn in the cold? Also what do Nimh hybrid cars do in the cold and the a123 powered cars coming out?


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## Black Rose (Jan 12, 2009)

mpteach said:


> Also what do Nimh hybrid cars do in the cold


My guess is that they don't work.

They will be pretty much useless for any climate where the temp goes below 0C/32F.


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## mpteach (Jan 12, 2009)

Prius use Nimh, they won't switch to lithium for another year.


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## insanefred (Oct 15, 2014)

*Cold weather performance NimH vs Li-ion vs lithium vs alkaline?*

Has anyone done some extensive testing in this? I am sure lithium comes up on top, but what about the others?


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## Lite_me (Oct 15, 2014)

*Re: Cold weather performance NimH vs Li-ion vs lithium vs alkaline?*

Not sure if any of these are just what you are looking for but here is a simple Google search from the top of the page.

https://www.google.com/search?q=col...tesearch=www.candlepowerforums.com&gws_rd=ssl


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## oKtosiTe (Oct 16, 2014)

*Re: Cold weather performance NimH vs Li-ion vs lithium vs alkaline?*

As has been said in so many threads before this one: lithium is the best choice in freezing conditions. Period.
That said, I've used Eneloops outside in freezing temps lots of times, but it works only because my pocket or running the flashlight itself kept them warm.
For storing in cars, etc., lithiums are simply the way to go.

Mods: May I suggest merging this thread into something like this?


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## Norm (Oct 16, 2014)

*Re: Cold weather performance NimH vs Li-ion vs lithium vs alkaline?*



oKtosiTe said:


> Mods: May I suggest merging this thread into something like this?


i did actually search for a similar thread, my search skills failed me, threads merged - Norm


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