# D Lithium rechgeable 3.7v 7500mah-Feeler...



## plasmaman (Jul 6, 2007)

I think I have sourced this cell:
normal D size dimensions
3.7v Li rechargeable
7500 mah
Max discharge 12a
800 cycle life 
expensive!
Anyone already aware of such a thing? - anyone interested in a GB? Subject to price of course.


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## habibi (Jul 6, 2007)

Hi!

How expensive? Depending on price i would be interested in 2 or 3!!!

Cheers


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## waynejitsu (Jul 6, 2007)

I am "N-ter-S-ted"


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## jimjones3630 (Jul 6, 2007)

I,m N.

Subject to price available domestic and excise tax.


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## kakster (Jul 6, 2007)

I'm definitely in for 6, maybe more if it's not too pricey.


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## plasmaman (Jul 6, 2007)

I expect to get confirmation of price on Monday, but current (agh) indication is 20GBP a piece plus shipping. So about twice the price of an AW C cell - but then again more than twice the capacity........
I'm buying some for my cutdown 1D LED projects anyway. 6-7 hours runtime for a 1A LEd, or 2 hours for a tri setup is tooooo good to miss!
And in a 2 or 3 D host - whoohoo.
I might be prepared to do a GB (haven't before) and shipping batteries out of UK needs looking at in terms of regulatory issues blah blah blah....
They are a stock item and available.
More soon.


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## sancho886 (Jul 6, 2007)

In for a few depending on final price


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## barkingmad (Jul 6, 2007)

plasmaman said:


> I expect to get confirmation of price on Monday, but current (agh) indication is 20GBP a piece plus shipping. So about twice the price of an AW C cell - but then again more than twice the capacity........
> I'm buying some for my cutdown 1D LED projects anyway. 6-7 hours runtime for a 1A LEd, or 2 hours for a tri setup is tooooo good to miss!
> And in a 2 or 3 D host - whoohoo.
> I might be prepared to do a GB (haven't before) and shipping batteries out of UK needs looking at in terms of regulatory issues blah blah blah....
> ...


 
Which supplier sells these in the UK?


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## Rommul (Jul 6, 2007)

Are these protected?


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## RdlyLite (Jul 6, 2007)

Im interested...


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## ar_wanton (Jul 6, 2007)

Im in a for a few


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## wvaltakis2 (Jul 6, 2007)

Interested as well


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## JimmyM (Jul 6, 2007)

Of course I'm IN. The price will only dictate how many I buy at once.
How expensive is expensive? $30-$50-$75?
The biggest D cell capacity I've found is 5400 mAh and that company doesn't sell individual cells.
I'd be sceptical of someone claiming that capacity. Also, a 2C rate would be 15A


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## kakster (Jul 6, 2007)

20GBP, which is a touch over 40 bucks.


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## JimmyM (Jul 6, 2007)

10. Gimme 10.


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## PhantomPhoton (Jul 7, 2007)

I'm interested in a couple pending further details. D size LiIons would be sweet if they've got high discharge ability... but they've got to be safe first.


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## Daekar (Jul 7, 2007)

PhantomPhoton said:


> I'm interested in a couple pending further details. D size LiIons would be sweet if they've got high discharge ability... but they've got to be safe first.



True... we need more details! We've been hoping for good D-LiIons for a while, and I would be in for at least 2 right off the bat, and probably 3 more within a few months pending available cash. If the specs are up to claimed values and they're capable of powering hotwire lamps, you'll sell all you can get your hands on, I don't doubt. I've been looking forward to these because I wanted to wait til they were available to make a tri-Cree mag... the runtimes just wouldn't be what I wanted unless D-cells were available, or else I'd be stuck with charging large numbers of 18650s and lots of empty space in my light.

Oh yes - they've gotta be protected!  I'm so excited, I've been looking forward to this...


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## LuxLuthor (Jul 7, 2007)

Be good to know the brand and if they have a credible set of run time curves at various amp loads. When it sounds too good to be true (compared to the ones JimmyM was looking at)....it might still be true. That's more than twice as expensive as Emoli or A123's...but if that mAh is right, it's actually a good deal.


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## JimmyM (Jul 7, 2007)

I'd love to see some discharge curves.
Honestly, I'd prefer unprotected. These aren't for amateurs anyway. Let me worry about or build in the protection. The small mosfets used in the builtin protection solutions have higher resistance than the ones I'd use.

Bring em on!


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## CancerLad (Jul 7, 2007)

I would be in for four. I would prefer protected cells.


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## monkeyboy (Jul 7, 2007)

I'd be in for 2 so long as they are protected.


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## jimjones3630 (Jul 7, 2007)

At that price range...at least 5.


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## Argon (Jul 8, 2007)

I would be in for three if protected.


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## barkingmad (Jul 8, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> Be good to know the brand and if they have a credible set of run time curves at various amp loads. When it sounds too good to be true (compared to the ones JimmyM was looking at)....it might still be true. That's more than twice as expensive as Emoli or A123's...but if that mAh is right, it's actually a good deal.


 
If they are in the UK I don't mind doing some discharge curves on a CBA-II...


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## cnjl3 (Jul 8, 2007)

I'm in for two to start off with. 
I was kinda hoping that AW would come up with some D size Li-ions since he mentioned that he would have a D size soft start but so far no mention?


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## frogs3 (Jul 9, 2007)

Depending on reliability, I would be in for 4, esp. if JimmyM could be persuaded to build a few extra mosfets. 

Just think of the hotwires that would have decent runtimes!

-HAK


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## ergotelis (Jul 10, 2007)

Me too for 3-4 batteries, great price!


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## flex76italy (Jul 10, 2007)

Any chances to see the spec from the web?


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## plasmaman (Jul 10, 2007)

I expect to have a few samples for testing in the next couple of days, so I will post more info then.

Can someone propose a meaningful and useful test programme I could run on these cells to produce a helpful runtime/discharge graph? I have a good DMM, and lots of hosts/bulbs.


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## LuxLuthor (Jul 10, 2007)

One should be sent to someone who has the CBA-II like Tom uses for all his battery shootout profiles at various amps....so we can see how it behaves under various amp loads, and get printouts.

If Tom (Silverfox) would do it, everyone would really appreciate his opinion. DMM readings are nearly worthless without under load tests, and doing a custom lamp load test will not have the standardization that the CBA-II provides.

I bought one of those units, but am not as experienced with it yet. They are damn sweet though.


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## JimmyM (Jul 12, 2007)

Has our dollar fallen below the 2:1 ratio? My God, what things have come to.
Soon it'll be like the old Peso.
Waiter: Can I help you?
Customer: A small Coke, please.
Waiter: That will be $67,000



kakster said:


> 20GBP, which is a touch over 40 bucks.



Still want 10 though.


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## DM51 (Jul 12, 2007)

JimmyM said:


> Has our dollar fallen below the 2:1 ratio? My God, what things have come to.


Don't worry, the US $ is still worth a bit more than the Zimbabwe $.


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## barkingmad (Jul 12, 2007)

JimmyM said:


> Has our dollar fallen below the 2:1 ratio? My God, what things have come to.
> Soon it'll be like the old Peso.
> Waiter: Can I help you?
> Customer: A small Coke, please.
> ...



1.00 UK Pound = 2.03 US Dollars (when I last checked)... great for the UK buying from the US but much more difficult if we are trying to export!

With UK taxes and the exchange rate - things are almost 1/2 price now when bought in US dollars.​


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## barkingmad (Jul 12, 2007)

barkingmad said:


> If they are in the UK I don't mind doing some discharge curves on a CBA-II...


 
Bump...


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## elnino (Jul 16, 2007)

I would be interested in a few depending on the price.


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## AndyTiedye (Jul 16, 2007)

I'd be interested in a few if protected.


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## FILIPPO (Jul 16, 2007)

I may be in for 3...(I need more details)
which charger do you suggest?


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## benyosh (Jul 16, 2007)

At least three for me.


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## JimmyM (Jul 16, 2007)

FILIPPO said:


> I may be in for 3...(I need more details)
> which charger do you suggest?


I'd highly recommend a balancing charger. I use the Bantam BC-8. It's expensive, but has built-in balancing of up to 8 cells.
There's a 4 cell balance-charger on all-battery.com
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1327&HS=1


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## RickB (Jul 16, 2007)

How does this sound for a possible application: 4 cells in a 4D Mag with an Osram 64623. At 14.8 volts nominal, it should outshine a 12-cell NiMH setup, depending on how well these cells stand up to the load. Runtime might be around 40 to 45 minutes... Better bring your oven mitts!

Or maybe 5 cells in a 5D Mag with the Osram 64458? Might be "underdriving" it a bit, but again it would last around 40 minutes. I wonder if it would be possible to actually melt the head? Nah...

-Rick


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## JimmyM (Jul 17, 2007)

Or on 6 cells with a soft starter. Bwahh haa haa haa.


RickB said:


> Or maybe 5 cells in a 5D Mag with the Osram 64458? Might be "underdriving" it a bit, but again it would last around 40 minutes. I wonder if it would be possible to actually melt the head? Nah...
> 
> -Rick


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## nein166 (Jul 18, 2007)

Around 45 USD I'd go in for 2 if it holds up to the testing


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## FILIPPO (Jul 18, 2007)

JimmyM said:


> I'd highly recommend a balancing charger. I use the Bantam BC-8. It's expensive, but has built-in balancing of up to 8 cells.
> There's a 4 cell balance-charger on all-battery.com
> http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1327&HS=1


 

do you know anithing less expensive?
my mom'll kill me...


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## barkingmad (Jul 18, 2007)

FILIPPO said:


> do you know anithing less expensive?
> my mom'll kill me...


 
$79 is pretty cheap for a decent Lithium balancing charger - Battery Junction seem to sell the same one. Also remember it runs off 12v so you need a 12v power supply (or battery).


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## LEDcandle (Jul 19, 2007)

Damn, I'd be in for one or two


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## JimmyM (Jul 20, 2007)

FILIPPO said:


> do you know anithing less expensive?
> my mom'll kill me...


 
It's easier to ask for forgiveness than it is to ask for permission.

"But, Mom. This cost more because it's extremely SAFE. I thought that was a good thing? I can return it and get the dangerous one. But with the return shipping costs and the cost of the dangerous charger, I'll still have spent the same amount. Sorry I made a mistake, Mom. I'll just buy cheap dangerous stuff from now on."


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## JimmyM (Jul 20, 2007)

If you can find a power supply for a laptop (11-14 v) you can easily connect it to the charger.



barkingmad said:


> $79 is pretty cheap for a decent Lithium balancing charger - Battery Junction seem to sell the same one. Also remember it runs off 12v so you need a 12v power supply (or battery).


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## Daekar (Jul 20, 2007)

I see some killer Milkymods in the near future if these become available...


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## LuxLuthor (Jul 20, 2007)

Not much action on this topic.


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## barkingmad (Jul 21, 2007)

plasmaman said:


> I expect to have a few samples for testing in the next couple of days, so I will post more info then.
> 
> Can someone propose a meaningful and useful test programme I could run on these cells to produce a helpful runtime/discharge graph? I have a good DMM, and lots of hosts/bulbs.


 
I PM'd and emailed plasmaman a bit ago - then sent him my address so I could test the cells for him - but nothing has arrived yet?

Guess he may not have received the cells yet or could be away...


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## flex76italy (Jul 21, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> Not much action on this topic.




Yes, and this is a bad thing.....action guys, action!


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## JimmyM (Jul 21, 2007)

There was a lot of action in my efforts initially too. But then the cells that were about to be shipped, vaporized. Let's hope this is not the case.
I'd like to know what load is used to determine that 7500 mAh rating. Sounds too good to be true. Even if they come in at 5000mAh, I'm in for 10 or so.


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## plasmaman (Jul 22, 2007)

Haven't posted for a little while as nothing to report - but now confirmed that a few test cells were sent out to me on Thursday last, so I expect to get them Tuesday next. 
I will probably only get 2 cells initially, so I want to keep hold of them for now. I may get hold of a CBA tester to do this, but I will need to order it from US.
More when ready....!


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## JimmyM (Jul 22, 2007)

Send them over to Silver Fox. His tests carry a lot of weight in these forums and he's got a ton of experience testing battery capacity, etc.


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## plasmaman (Jul 26, 2007)

Update
2 cells received as promised from the manufacturer. They have flat tops, so I have added solder blobs for connectivity.
Charged them on Cellpro 4S to max and showing 4.17v at full charge.
According to DMM reading when unpacked they had 3.5v. According to Cellpro it added 4+ amps on charging!
Now trying to source a CBA-II from US to do some reliable and meaningful tests.
Initial impressions are very good, but that's only a gut feel, so forget about it!
If the factory will supply me, and I won't know that until I visit them in September, I can foresee a big problem in shipping the things to anyone interested as they are classified as Hazchem....anyone????


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## barkingmad (Jul 26, 2007)

plasmaman said:


> Update
> 2 cells received as promised from the manufacturer. They have flat tops, so I have added solder blobs for connectivity.
> Charged them on Cellpro 4S to max and showing 4.17v at full charge.
> According to DMM reading when unpacked they had 3.5v. According to Cellpro it added 4+ amps on charging!
> ...


 
Well I am still happy to test them on my CBA-II (here in the UK) and then post them back when done?


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## cnjl3 (Jul 26, 2007)

"Ditto" on cpf member Silver Fox



JimmyM said:


> Send them over to Silver Fox. His tests carry a lot of weight in these forums and he's got a ton of experience testing battery capacity, etc.


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## monkeyboy (Jul 26, 2007)

Are they protected? If so what kind of protection? I'm just looking for something with low voltage cutout really.


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## JimmyM (Jul 26, 2007)

They can be shipped, It will just be more expensive. That's just life. AW ships Li-Ion cells all the time.
Discharge them at a slowly increasing rate for each subsequent test. Once they are discharged to 2.8 volts in 1 hour. That's your true 1C Ah rating.
Typically cells are rated while being discharged at 0.2C. You can actually have different Ah ratings for the same cell based on it's discharge rate.

Large deep cycle batteries are rated at their "20 hour rate". If your battery is rated at 100Ah, you will only get that 100Ah if it is discharged over a period of 20 hours. If you discharge it faster, you get fewer amp-hours before end of discharge voltage.

A battery rated at it's 0.2C rate is it's Ah capacity at the 5 hour rate. 
If these things give anywhere near 6Ah at 0.2C (1.2A) I'll take 2 dozen of them.
That would run a Cree at about 1.1-1.2A for ~5 hours.



plasmaman said:


> If the factory will supply me, and I won't know that until I visit them in September, I can foresee a big problem in shipping the things to anyone interested as they are classified as Hazchem....anyone????


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## PhantomPhoton (Jul 26, 2007)

Glad to hear they have been received. I'm still interested in them, even if they are a bit expensive. Are they protected ?


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## plasmaman (Jul 27, 2007)

These cells are not protected against overcharging - that is down to the user to ensure that safe charging levels are observed.
I believe they have low discharge protection - ie cut off below 2.5v.


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## cnjl3 (Jul 30, 2007)

This thread sure sounds optimistic.
Who did you decide to send the Li-ion cells to - for 'testing'?
I'm hoping it pans out so we can get our mitts on some D size Li-ions.


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## JimmyM (Jul 31, 2007)

The only thing you left off was...
Mwwaaahaaaahaaaa


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## plasmaman (Aug 1, 2007)

update..
ordered a CBA-II so I can run a few tests with different loads (like a 6 amp draw for a 64430 bulb!).
Waiting for the postman.
More soon........


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## JimmyM (Aug 1, 2007)

I'd test at the 0.2C rate (1.5A) to see if you get anywhere near 7500mAH.

Throwing around terms like 1C and 2C really starts to mean something when that works out to 15 Amps.

Personally I'd test at 1 Amp first. Then 2 amps, then, 4. See what you're dealing with.
I'd really like to see a couple of them tested by Silver Fox.


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## LEDcandle (Aug 1, 2007)

I appreciate that plasmaman has gone out to buy a tester and check out these cells in addition to finding them in the first place! 

Having Tom get a cell or 2 for more data is of course very welcome, but let's not make plasmaman feel unappreciated! :laughing:


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## SilverFox (Aug 1, 2007)

Hello Plasmaman,

It looks like you have things well in hand.

If I might offer a couple of suggestions to aid your testing...

Start with a 1 amp discharge. This should give you an idea of what the actual capacity should be. Follow this with a 2 amp test, then a 4 amp test. The purpose of these lower current draw tests is that sometimes there is a breaking in process with Li-Ion cells. This is most notable when you are pushing them to the limits, so it is prudent to start off with it at the beginning.

After you have run all your various tests, go back and run another test at the 1 amp rate to see if you have had any permanent loss in capacity during your testing. Some lesser quality cells will lose as much as 20% of their initial capacity during the testing.

To insure that your results are consistent from run to run, you need to make sure that the resting voltage after charging is the same for each run.

In general, a Li-Ion cell is considered "dead" when its capacity drops to below 80% of its initial (or labeled) capacity.

I look forward to your test results.

Tom


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## JimmyM (Aug 2, 2007)

I didn't mean it like that, dude.
I wish I could afford a CBA-II.



LEDcandle said:


> I appreciate that plasmaman has gone out to buy a tester and check out these cells in addition to finding them in the first place!
> 
> Having Tom get a cell or 2 for more data is of course very welcome, but let's not make plasmaman feel unappreciated! :laughing:


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## jimjones3630 (Aug 2, 2007)

Glad to see this project progressing here. Starting to look interesting with capable folks testing and doing the work to make good D li rechargeables
available. 

Jim


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## FredM (Aug 3, 2007)

If this comes through Mag modders can laugh in the face of all that oppose them. Muhahahahahahah.


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## Phaserburn (Aug 4, 2007)

How much are these badboys, anyway? Thanks to P-Man for all his tenacity in getting after these interesting cells.

Anyone like a single D cell Malkoff?


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## plasmaman (Aug 5, 2007)

news..
CBA-II arrived (big thank you to Frank at cheapham.com for great service and packing) and lots of helpful advice on testing, particularly from Silverfox.
These test take quite a while to run (1 amp = around 7 hours + recharge time) so be patient out there!
More soon, and thanks to everyone following this little adventure!


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## Nitro (Aug 5, 2007)




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## LuxLuthor (Aug 11, 2007)

Isn't that CBA the best little tool?


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## jwl (Aug 11, 2007)

Interested....


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## Nitro (Aug 11, 2007)




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## plasmaman (Aug 11, 2007)

Getting to grips with the CBA now - it is very sensitive to the power output from the USB port on my desktop, so I'm running it from a laptop which has no other USB devices attached.
I've run 1, 2 and 4 amp test today on the D cells, and they look very good to my unexpert eye. The discharge curve isn't a curve at all, but pretty much a straight line all the way down to the 2.8v cutoff I set manually on the CBA, rather than relying on the 2.5v cutoff in the cell itself.
Both cells run almost identically, and show just over 7 amp hours run time.
Here's the 4 amp draw graph. The scanner missed the last line of the spec which reads 'Tested capacity 7.06Ah' That's to 2.8v of course, so I imagine the 7.5ah rated capacity is there if you go right down to 2.5v.
As I haven't seen graphs of any other batteries except my own, I can only compare the discharge characteristic to some tests I ran on 18650 cells - these have a real ski jump at the end, falling away almost vertically at around 2.9v, so the D's look pretty good to me - but I'd be keen to hear comments.
So it looks like a good one and a half hours runtime with a 4amp draw, dropping just below 3v at that point.
I'm going to run more tests over the next few days, and will post more results.
No news on availability until after factory visit in 2nd week in September, so don't get too excited now!


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## nein166 (Aug 11, 2007)

Wait did you say don't get excited? TOO LATE!


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## dizzy (Aug 11, 2007)

I would most likely be in for 2 to get started.

Nice work so far with your testing.


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## Gadget_Guru (Aug 12, 2007)

Drool...

Now, what can I sell on eBay to pay for these?

I was one of those in the group buy for the first D-size li-ion cells. They were unprotected, and rated at 5200mAh, but my tests indicated more like 4200mAh capacity on my two cells. Nice to see such an improvement.


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## SilverFox (Aug 12, 2007)

Hello Plasmaman,

I find it interesting that the voltage does not hold up better. Li-Ion cells are usually rated at a mid point voltage of 3.6 - 3.7 volts under a 0.5 - 1.0C load. Your 4 amp test is just over 0.5C and I was expecting a mid point voltage higher than the roughly 3.2 volts you are showing.

If we moved the whole graph up 0.5 volts, we would end up with a more traditional curve. 

I am not sure what is going on.

A point of correction...

I mentioned using a 1 amp discharge as a comparison base line test. When I mentioned that, I had been testing a variety of lower capacity cells. I think your 4 amp test will serve you well as a base line. You don't need to do a 7 hour discharge just for the base line. Sorry about that.

In general, the capacity of the cell is supposed to be based on a 5 hour discharge. There seems to be little change, with most cells, between a 5 hour discharge and a 2 hour discharge. Some cells even do a little better with a 1 hour discharge than they do with the 5 hour discharge.

A 2 hour discharge is a good base line for comparison.

The purpose of the base line is to check cycle life. After you run your tests at higher discharge rates, you go back and run an additional 2 hour discharge and compare the capacity with your base line test. If your testing has not damaged the cell, the two numbers should be very similar. If the cell has been damaged due to high discharge rates, the capacity will be lower. If your capacity drops to below 80% of your base line capacity, the cell is considered dead.

Tom


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## LEDcandle (Aug 12, 2007)

SilverFox said:


> If your capacity drops to below 80% of your base line capacity, the cell is considered dead.
> 
> Tom



Hey Tom, if a cell reaches that state, does it actually still retain around 80% capacity or is it really "dead" and won't hold up at all in actual use?


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## FredM (Aug 12, 2007)

The cell was fully charged correct? A 4amp load was able to bring it from 4.2 at the terminals to 3.7 under load?


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## plasmaman (Aug 12, 2007)

The cells are actually rated at 3.55v by the manufacterer, rather than the more traditional 3.7v.
Yes, they were fully charged, although rested for an hour or so after charging.
I use a CellPro4S to charge, and that consistently indicated that it had put 7.1 - 7.2 amps back into the cells after all the different tests were run.
I will try a 1C test later today - ie 7amp draw, and then recharge, and then another 4 amp test to check stability following Tom's advice.


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## SilverFox (Aug 12, 2007)

Hello LEDcandle,

Yes and yes...

If you start with a Li-Ion cell that has 1000 mAh of capacity initially, when it drops to 800 mAh it is ready to be retired. 

It still has the 800 mAh of capacity, but it will not be able to hold voltage very well under load, due to the increased internal resistance. This means that it won't hold up in actual use, even though it still has some capacity left.

Once the cells have dropped to below 80% of their initial capacity, instabilities begin to form within the cells chemistry. Some people try to continue to use these crap cells in less demanding applications, but I am not entirely convinced that it is entirely safe to do so...

Tom


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## LEDcandle (Aug 12, 2007)

SilverFox said:


> Hello LEDcandle,
> 
> Yes and yes...
> 
> ...



I'm thinking the most stretched battery are mobile phone cells! They are often used till they can't even hold 40-50% charge (guilty as charged). Gulp. If it really poses a danger, a mobile phone is the last item that I want going kaboom!! 

Time to buy a new cell .... or phone....


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## VidPro (Aug 12, 2007)

SilverFox said:


> I am not sure what is going on.
> 
> Tom


 
yes strange.
mabey the protection curcuit is adding a bit of resistance?
or mabey his LEADS to the battery are adding in to much resistance?

at 4 amps , using copper for your wire, and some fair guage of wire might be nessisary, i donno what plasma is using now.

at least it looks like it might have more capacity than the ones available now, i wouldnt have thought it possible.
3.55 isnt that much different than 3.6 and OTHER li-ion D cells say not to charge over 4.1v, so that number would still be a relative nominal for a D li-ion.


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## JimmyM (Aug 30, 2007)

Any activity on this?


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## JimmyM (Aug 30, 2007)

VidPro said:


> yes strange.
> mabey the protection curcuit is adding a bit of resistance?
> or mabey his LEADS to the battery are adding in to much resistance?
> 
> at 4 amps , using copper for your wire, and some fair guage of wire might be nessisary, i donno what plasma is using now.


If he were using 18 AWG wire and they were 2 ft long each. 4 Amps would only show a 0.102 Volt drop.


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## Daekar (Aug 31, 2007)

:rock::buddies::twothumbs

Soon to be


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## cnjl3 (Aug 31, 2007)

Damn! Too bad we have to wait til the middle of September!




plasmaman said:


> No news on availability until after factory visit in 2nd week in September, so don't get too excited now!


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## cfromc (Sep 3, 2007)

Mid-September is coming soon. Any idea on how much these are?


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## Olaf (Sep 3, 2007)

Might as well go and delete this thread D cells are now available off the as they say "off the shelf"

https://www.kaidomain.com/WEBUI/ProductDetail.aspx?TranID=3069


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## Rommul (Sep 3, 2007)

Olaf said:


> Might as well go and delete this thread D cells are now available off the as they say "off the shelf"
> 
> https://www.kaidomain.com/WEBUI/ProductDetail.aspx?TranID=3069



You are new but Li-Ion cells with dubious histories are not something people around here play with casually. And neither should you.

Until we know more about these cells lets not jump to conclusions.


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## JimmyM (Sep 3, 2007)

Olaf said:


> Might as well go and delete this thread D cells are now available off the as they say "off the shelf"
> 
> https://www.kaidomain.com/WEBUI/ProductDetail.aspx?TranID=3069


 
Do we know for sure that these cells are the exact ones Plasma was working on?
It's worth the $32 just to check them out.

I guess it was worth it. I just bought 4 of them.
Once I have them I'll see about some tests/reviews.
My plan is to use them for an ROP-HI and a Mag275 (Osram 64275)


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## Nitro (Sep 3, 2007)

Olaf said:


> Might as well go and delete this thread D cells are now available off the as they say "off the shelf"
> 
> https://www.kaidomain.com/WEBUI/ProductDetail.aspx?TranID=3069



There's an old saying, "If it looks to good to be true, it generally is.".

With that said, feel free to test them out, and report back to us when you're finished.


----------



## Daekar (Sep 3, 2007)

As I understand it, those are unprotected cells, and they're quite a bit lower capacity than the ones discussed in this thread. I would much rather pay more for the AW cells, personally.


----------



## Nitro (Sep 3, 2007)

Daekar said:


> As I understand it, those are unprotected cells, and they're quite a bit lower capacity than the ones discussed in this thread. I would much rather pay more for the AW cells, personally.



If they don't specificly say protected, I'd bet they're not.


----------



## JimmyM (Sep 3, 2007)

While I was shopping around, I found a source that would sell 5000 mAh cells in quantities of 1000 for $9 each.
Anyway....
Is there anyone in the New England area that has a CBA-II?


----------



## Aircraft800 (Sep 4, 2007)

JimmyM said:


> While I was shopping around, I found a source that would sell 5000 mAh cells in quantities of 1000 for $9 each.
> Anyway....
> Is there anyone in the New England area that has a CBA-II?


 
kaidomain










Right here on CPF Market Place sells *D-size 32600 Li-ion 5000mAh* non-protected battery for $15.5 each.


See his thread here:
http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=169003

.


----------



## Daekar (Sep 5, 2007)

The wait is killing me! I'm putting off building a hotwire specifically because I don't want to buy C li-ions if D-cells are available... I certainly hope this comes through!


----------



## JimmyM (Sep 5, 2007)

Daekar said:


> The wait is killing me! I'm putting off building a hotwire specifically because I don't want to buy C li-ions if D-cells are available... I certainly hope this comes through!


5000 mAH D cells are available at kaidomain. Not the same as described by plasmaman, but worth a look.


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## Daekar (Sep 6, 2007)

JimmyM said:


> 5000 mAH D cells are available at kaidomain. Not the same as described by plasmaman, but worth a look.



Yeah, I know... but I want protected cells. The runtime advantages aren't worth it to me if they're not going to be as safe... I'd rather get less runtime with the C-cells that are protected.


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## JimmyM (Sep 6, 2007)

Daekar said:


> Yeah, I know... but I want protected cells. The runtime advantages aren't worth it to me if they're not going to be as safe... I'd rather get less runtime with the C-cells that are protected.


 
I hadn't seen that plasmaman's cells were protected. Every lithium cell I've ever heard of has a PTC (Shuts off cell if it gets too hot). The under/overcharge stuff is an additional circuit. Personally I'd like to see a board that can be fitted to the end of a stick of cells.


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## Nitro (Sep 6, 2007)

JimmyM said:


> I hadn't seen that plasmaman's cells were protected. Every lithium cell I've ever heard of has a PTC (Shuts off cell if it gets too hot). The under/overcharge stuff is an additional circuit. Personally I'd like to see a board that can be fitted to the end of a stick of cells.



If you fit a board to a group of cells, wouldn't you run the risk of a particular cell going below(reverse) voltage?


----------



## Raoul_Duke (Sep 6, 2007)

I dont know, But I guess you could use ballance wires on the circuit to stop reverse charging whilst charging, doth know about when running.

I'd be interested to know, because I'm using emoli cells in series at the mo, and although they dont need protection as they are safer than Li-ion, they could do with low voltage cut off, and reverse charge protection I guess.


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## JimmyM (Sep 6, 2007)

Nitro said:


> If you fit a board to a group of cells, wouldn't you run the risk of a particular cell going below(reverse) voltage?


 
My thought was a single board that monitored all the cells (copper strips up the sides of the pack under the shrinkwrap) and had just a single large MOSFET to control the switching on or off if things went funny with just a single cell. Having a balancing charger port as well would be a real perk.


----------



## Nitro (Sep 6, 2007)

JimmyM said:


> My thought was a single board that monitored all the cells (copper strips up the sides of the pack under the shrinkwrap) and had just a single large MOSFET to control the switching on or off if things went funny with just a single cell. Having a balancing charger port as well would be a real perk.



Interesting... monitor each cell individually by a master control circuit. I'd be in for one attached to 3 D cells. When will you be producing it?


----------



## Raoul_Duke (Sep 6, 2007)

I hope so


----------



## JimmyM (Sep 7, 2007)

You guys are too funny! I can't even get my soft-starter built yet  .
I'll look into the electronics of it. There are circuits to monitor several cells in a pack all at once. I would just have to figure out how to get it all on one 30mm board with a nice 3 mOhm MOSFET.
Too many plans, not enough time and money. Such is life.
Of course if I do get around to building one. I'll let everyone in. I'm guessing that if there's enough demand, AW, or someone else will come up with a solution.
Do I smell 2S2P 5761 in a 4D Mag?


----------



## LuxLuthor (Sep 7, 2007)

Come on Jimmy....let's be cranking those solutions out tonight!!!

The protection circuits that monitor and 'balance' charge cell packs that have balance taps need a safe way for the wires to be securely attached to the cells, as soldering to Lithium cells is downright dangerous.

Remember the other problem for those thinking of putting these into a Maglite....the regulation charging circuit needs a place to stay, and most of them are rectangle shaped as for use in an RC LiPo square pack...and so would not fit inside a maglite with D cells. 

It would be hard to find a quality PTC that will stand up to 7500mAh D cells shape and capacity to work in a flashlight template. Square box spotlight, yeah.


----------



## JimmyM (Sep 8, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> Come on Jimmy....let's be cranking those solutions out tonight!!!
> 
> The protection circuits that monitor and 'balance' charge cell packs that have balance taps need a safe way for the wires to be securely attached to the cells, as soldering to Lithium cells is downright dangerous.
> 
> ...


Always the voice of encouragement, Lex!:laughing:
Someone around here's just bought a pack welder. That would work nicely. The existing boards may not work. A custom 30mm board might need to be made.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Sep 8, 2007)

JimmyM said:


> Always the voice of encouragement, Lex!:laughing:
> Someone around here's just bought a pack welder. That would work nicely. The existing boards may not work. A custom 30mm board might need to be made.



LOL! I'm kind of wondering how much of what you were trying to accomplish will be mostly handled with AW's new D Driver.

TBH, I have welded packs of various Li-Ion cells, including with balance taps...and got some sweet white shrink...but I want to test these for a long time, and am very reluctant (& selective) about who I would sell them to...with all the concerns about Lithium Cobalt chemistry cells.


----------



## JimmyM (Sep 8, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> LOL! I'm kind of wondering how much of what you were trying to accomplish will be mostly handled with AW's new D Driver.
> 
> TBH, I have welded packs of various Li-Ion cells, including with balance taps...and got some sweet white shrink...but I want to test these for a long time, and am very reluctant (& selective) about who I would sell them to...with all the concerns about Lithium Cobalt chemistry cells.


That'd be cool if the driver can do all of that.


----------



## plasmaman (Sep 10, 2007)

I visit the factory tomorrow (Tuesday) and will post as much info as I can by the end of the week.
Just to recap, the cells I am looking at are 3.55v nominal, 7500Mah, protected against overdischarge at 2.55v (I believe), but no charging protection circuitry. And they have a flat top currently. They are expensive as they are built for govt/mil customers.
The CBA II tests I have run show these cells to be very 'honest'. What I mean by that is that having run say a 3amp test on the CBA, they give over 2 hours at a 3v cutoff, and when recharging on the CellPro 4S they take in just over 7 amps. So I believe the capacity is not overstated.
The runtime graph is the flattest of all the cells I have tested on the CBA (C Li, 18650, and 14500).


----------



## JimmyM (Sep 10, 2007)

plasmaman said:


> I visit the factory tomorrow (Tuesday) and will post as much info as I can by the end of the week.
> Just to recap, the cells I am looking at are 3.55v nominal, 7500Mah, protected against overdischarge at 2.55v (I believe), but no charging protection circuitry. And they have a flat top currently. They are expensive as they are built for govt/mil customers.
> The CBA II tests I have run show these cells to be very 'honest'. What I mean by that is that having run say a 3amp test on the CBA, they give over 2 hours at a 3v cutoff, and when recharging on the CellPro 4S they take in just over 7 amps. So I believe the capacity is not overstated.
> The runtime graph is the flattest of all the cells I have tested on the CBA (C Li, 18650, and 14500).


Well done! Perhaps we'll have access to "standard" (kaidomain) and "premium" (your) cells.
Can you believe we may just have a side-by-side Lithium Ion D cell shootout!?
Too cool.


----------



## Aircraft800 (Sep 11, 2007)

*Hey Guys,*

*I got some info from a supplier for 32650 cells 5000 mAh, but am in no way a guru on this stuff, so I don't know what spec. we need our PCB to be. I need some help here so I can reply to the wholesaler and get some pricing.*

*Here is the info I received:*



HI, Good morning. 

Thanks for your kindly inquiry for our ICR32650. 

First of all, It is high discharge rate Li-Ion Rechargeable Battery. and the dimension is the similar like "D" Size. The dimension is 32mm(diameter)*65mm(Height). The Capacity is 5000mAh. It can be installed PCB according to the customers' requirement. The PCB can be Protect the battery from Short Circuit, Over Charge, and Over discharge. 


The detail information of our those Column Lithium Ion Batteries is given blow for your ref: 







Sir, If it is possible, May i know your estimate quantity on this? Then i can give your the exactly price for your ref/ 

Anything i can do for you, Just let me know freely.


.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Sep 12, 2007)

plasmaman said:


> I visit the factory tomorrow (Tuesday) and will post as much info as I can by the end of the week.
> Just to recap, the cells I am looking at are 3.55v nominal, 7500Mah, protected against overdischarge at 2.55v (I believe), but no charging protection circuitry. And they have a flat top currently. They are expensive as they are built for govt/mil customers.
> The CBA II tests I have run show these cells to be very 'honest'. What I mean by that is that having run say a 3amp test on the CBA, they give over 2 hours at a 3v cutoff, and when recharging on the CellPro 4S they take in just over 7 amps. So I believe the capacity is not overstated.
> The runtime graph is the flattest of all the cells I have tested on the CBA (C Li, 18650, and 14500).



OK, back from your factory visit. Good or bad news?


----------



## plasmaman (Sep 12, 2007)

Good news, but patience required!
The CEO was extremely accommodating (and interested in the flashlight applications) and I spent 3 hours with him, including a full tour of the manufacturing facility, which produces several hundred thousand cells a year. Not in the same league as Sony or Panasonic, but on the other hand this product is a superb piece of engineering excellence made to incredibly tight tolerances, and the quality control is very impressive. For example every cell is individually numbered and traced through manufacture, charging, testing and distribution.
Once completed, the cells are charged initially, tested, then left to rest for 2 weeks, before being retested and recharged in readiness for shipping!
The chemistry is lithium nickel cobalt oxide, and all the chemical components (graphite, lithium, electrolyte) are sourced in Japan.
The cans are spun stainless steel and the lid is laser welded, not crimped.
The cells now include an overcharge protection pcb. So they are as safe as a lithium cell can be, given the nature of the beast. 
I have an agreement that the factory are willing to supply me, min order quantity will be 50 cells. The factory will do me a special run and include a pressure contact blob on the +ve cap so that we can use them in series.
Price not yet determined however, as they need to think about the end cap implications. We could be looking at as much as 25GBP each - ie 50USD.
So they are not for everyone. I'm sure many cpfer's will be happy to make do with a less expensive D Li cell, and good luck to them of course, but if you want the best then I believe I have sourced them.
Once I have a firm price I will probably launch either a group buy, or maybe a dealer page - I'm undecided really as to what is best for everyone (including me from the point of view of my time!) - it also depends on how much demand there might be.:tinfoil:


----------



## Raoul_Duke (Sep 12, 2007)

The Demand is Right here Dude 

Well Done.

Overcharge protection aswell. ~WOOT~

Everybody form an Orderly Que


----------



## flex76italy (Sep 12, 2007)

Hi, interested as well, possible to know the official spec. of these cells?

Thanks.


----------



## plasmaman (Sep 12, 2007)

flex76italy said:


> Hi, interested as well, possible to know the official spec. of these cells?
> 
> Thanks.


 
nominal voltage:3.55v
rated capacity:7.5ah
height:60.1mm +/- 0.2mm
diameter:33.9mm +/- 0.1mm
weight:143g 
discharge temp range:-40c to +70c
charge temp range:0c to 50c
max continuous discharge current:10A
end of discharge voltage:2.5v
end of charge voltage:4.2v +/- 0.05v
The cell is undergoing testing to meet the requirements of the UN Recommendations on the Transport of Dangerous Goods, Manual of Tests and Criteria (ST/SG/AC.10/11(Rev.3)Class 9


----------



## across the pond (Sep 12, 2007)

I'm interested too mate! I've just started pulling bits together for my first ROP, and this is the perfect power source! And it doesn't have to be shipped across the atlantic to get to me. Woohoo!!!! 
Two thumbs, way up high! :twothumbs


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## LuxLuthor (Sep 13, 2007)

Plasmaman, sounds like you did a wonderful job representing us, had a great time seeing their facility, and learned a lot. What a pleasure to hear about such exacting quality inspection details from them. I think you should plan on a run more like 100 - 150 of them.

I think I would get at least 4, maybe 6 even at that price because these will end up being the best any of us are likely to see for a long time, if not ever.

Couple other questions....
I'm assuming a standard "Hobby" charger that does typical 3.7V Li-Ion/LiPo cells would work (vs. the special A123 3V charger requirement)? Can you find out their recommendation for optimal charging rate for their cells?
Did he have an estimate on life once manufactured (this quality may last longer than typical Li-Ion)?
The pressure "contact blob" on top....is that similar to the "nipple" on an alkaline D cell...or more like the top on an Emoli (I can take image if you have not seen one)?
Any chance of getting CBA-II at high 10A D/C rate?
What bulbs are you thinking of using it with in 2D & 3D combinations (I'm thinking of a lot of combo's, some of which need a HotDriver, but this would help show the flexibility to people...ESPECIALLY if AW can do the D reg/multi-level/POT adjustable driver).
Mainly, a BIG thanks for following through on this. I am pleasantly surprised. 

It will take a while before people catch the positive news in this old thread. Might even be good to change the topic slightly ?


----------



## flex76italy (Sep 13, 2007)

plasmaman said:


> nominal voltage:3.55v
> rated capacity:7.5ah
> height:60.1mm +/- 0.2mm
> diameter:33.9mm +/- 0.1mm
> ...




Thanks for the info...but why only 3.55V nominal?


----------



## TnC_Products (Sep 13, 2007)

Hello Plasmaman,

The height 60.1 is this with the button top blob? Just checking because I know I will be in for a few of these for a NEW Project! 

Chris



plasmaman said:


> nominal voltage:3.55v
> rated capacity:7.5ah
> height:60.1mm +/- 0.2mm
> diameter:33.9mm +/- 0.1mm
> ...


----------



## TnC_Products (Sep 13, 2007)

So who is going to start the interest list?

TnC_Products (5-10pcs)
LuxLuthor (4-6pcs)
?


----------



## Raoul_Duke (Sep 13, 2007)

TnC_Products said:


> So who is going to start the interest list?
> 
> TnC_Products (5-10pcs)
> LuxLuthor (4-6pcs)
> ?




TnC_Products (5-10pcs)
LuxLuthor (4-6pcs)
Raoul_Duke (4-6pcs)


----------



## Mark_Paulus (Sep 13, 2007)

Well, for that kind of $$, I can't get many, but I will be in for 2, since I need them in pairs. And perhaps, if they live up to expectation, I might be able to get 2 more, later on down the line.


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## LuxLuthor (Sep 13, 2007)

I really recommend that Plasmaman start a new thread in one of the sales threads....wherever they are supposed to go. There is too much unrelated stuff now in this thread which seemed more of an "iffy" proposition up until now. Wait till Jimmy sees this. He will probably come in with like 20-30 of them alone (after he arranges a 2nd mortgage)!


----------



## Rommul (Sep 13, 2007)

TnC_Products (5-10pcs)
LuxLuthor (4-6pcs)
Raoul_Duke (4-6pcs) 
Rommul 6 Cells


----------



## plasmaman (Sep 13, 2007)

Thanks for all the kind words.
The spec height is the stock size without any type of pip on the +ve cap.
When I have a firm price I will start a new thread.
I just ran a 10 amp test for you - here it is. I set the cutoff to 3v. The cell took 2.68a on the recharge after this test.


----------



## Nitro (Sep 13, 2007)

WOW, cool!

I'd be in for 4.


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## wvaltakis2 (Sep 13, 2007)

In for at least 2 @ app. $50

~Chip


----------



## SilverFox (Sep 13, 2007)

Hello Plasmaman,

So, what do you get when you do a 3 amp discharge?

Tom


----------



## JimmyM (Sep 13, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> I really recommend that Plasmaman start a new thread in one of the sales threads....wherever they are supposed to go. There is too much unrelated stuff now in this thread which seemed more of an "iffy" proposition up until now. Wait till Jimmy sees this. He will probably come in with like 20-30 of them alone (after he arranges a 2nd mortgage)!


Do you mean me? Even if you don't. You're right on the money! I'm trying to figure out how much I can get for a kidney. 6 of these and a 64458.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Sep 14, 2007)

JimmyM said:


> Do you mean me? Even if you don't. You're right on the money! I'm trying to figure out how much I can get for a kidney. 6 of these and a 64458.



LOL! I am a bit puzzled by why he started it out at 3.4V. If it is fully charged, I would expect it to go up to at least 4.1 V...especially with their charging PTC settings. 

Maybe Plasmaman just wanted to show the last part of the cells capability was still holding up....where most cells would sag like your grandmother's....well you get the idea.


----------



## SilverFox (Sep 14, 2007)

Hello Lux,

Yes, the starting voltage seems to be a little low.

The CBA records the starting voltage as that voltage present immediately after the load is applied. For example, I ran a 10 amp test on a Sony 18650 1600 mAh Li-IonManganese cell. The starting voltage of that test was also 3.4 volts, but when the cell dropped to 3.0 volts, I only had around 1100 mAh. Going all the way down to 2.5 volts gave me around 1500 mAh. Not bad for a 1600 mAh cell at 10 amps.

Tom


----------



## plasmaman (Sep 14, 2007)

SilverFox said:


> Hello Plasmaman,
> 
> So, what do you get when you do a 3 amp discharge?
> 
> Tom


 
I guess you were thinking about whether the 10A test affeected the cell's capacity - see your post #81...???
I will run a 3A test this weekend. Actually I'll run a 4A test to 2.8v so you can compare it against the graph in post#77!
As far as the starting voltage is concerned (LL's point), I'm no EE, but my understanding is that the higher the current draw, the bigger the decrease in voltage. The 10A test cell was tested 24 hours after coming off charge, and was showing 4.19v on the DMM and the CBA before applying the load. As Tom says, the CBA records the 'starting' voltage immediately after the load is applied. 
After the test, the cell immediately bounced back up to 3.9v on the DMM, having 'used' 2.6ah of stored capacity.


----------



## SilverFox (Sep 14, 2007)

Hello Plasmaman,

Oops, I forgot about your earlier run at 4 amps and the discussion moved on to another page...

Keep in mind that you may be a victim of voltage drop in your set up. At lower currents this does not make much of a difference, but when you get to higher currents you need to measure it and factor it into your results. The CBA reads the voltage of the battery through the test leads. Any resistance of the wires, connectors, and battery connections result in a lower voltage being reported. When you calibrate your CBA you can measure and check the voltage at the battery verses what the CBA is reporting and allow for some adjustments, if necessary.

Tom


----------



## plasmaman (Sep 14, 2007)

Tom
I made a test cradle to hold the D cell for testing on the CBA.
It has hardwired 12awg silicone leads at each end which terminate with Powerpole connectors to hook up with the CBA leads.
Any thoughts?
Here is the fresh 4A test - it is slightly better than the first one! I think the cells are 'running in'!!


----------



## LightForce (Sep 14, 2007)

Wow, it begins to look impressive now. 

But the voltage and capacity sag at 10A is brutal...
These cells are designed to max 1C discharge rate in my opinion.

The latest chart and 4A performance encourage me to fit it in the Mag T5. What about it guys?


----------



## JimmyM (Sep 14, 2007)

LightForce said:


> Wow, it begins to look impressive now.
> 
> But the voltage and capacity sag at 10A is brutal...
> These cells are designed to max 1C discharge rate in my opinion.
> ...


The capacity sag is known as the Peukert Effect and is quantifiable as the Peukert exponent. It's the measure of the decrease in available capacity as the current draw goes up. Essentially, if you half the load, your battery will last MORE than twice as long. It is more apparent in extremely high mAh hour cells. CBP1600s versus 2800mAh AA cells. the 2800s sag more and deliver a smaller percentage of their capacity before reaching their cut-off voltage. Each cell has their advantages depending on use. For a multi-cree light, the higher capacity/lower rate cells are better since the load is less. I wonder how the kaidomain cells will bear-up under load. They might sag less but give less capacity. We'll have to see.

Is more information on the T5 available somewhere? It looks cool.


----------



## LightForce (Sep 14, 2007)

Due to this project unfinished stage, I cannot tell more. Most things and facts would change. This is only one such a Mag, THIS may help you a bit. 

Damian


----------



## JimmyM (Sep 14, 2007)

LightForce said:


> Due to this project unfinished stage, I cannot tell more. Most things and facts would change. This is only one such a Mag, THIS may help you a bit.
> 
> Damian


Thanks, Damian. It looks fantastic. Of course I won't be able to afford one when they are availble, but that's my problem. Great looking light.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Sep 14, 2007)

LightForce said:


> Due to this project unfinished stage, I cannot tell more. Most things and facts would change. This is only one such a Mag, THIS may help you a bit.
> 
> Damian



Damian, who makes the ballast? As has been said many times....quality of the ballast is crucial in any HID project.


----------



## SilverFox (Sep 14, 2007)

Hello Plasmaman,

You can put a voltmeter across the battery and compare your voltmeter readings with what the voltage is showing on the CBA. Do this at different discharge rates. This should give you an idea of the voltage drop in your system.

Tom


----------



## gostanova (Sep 14, 2007)

I"ll be in for at least 2 @ $50


----------



## JimmyM (Sep 14, 2007)

I wish I could backup my previous offer to buy 10. But the next disposable $500 I come across is going into building soft starters.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Sep 14, 2007)

Jimmy, that Puker  effect can explain that much of a starting out drop with the 10A load??? Weird that it starts at 3.4, unless Tom's idea allows some correction. That's gonna be a problem for your dream 64458 dream machine which sucks down over 10A.


----------



## JimmyM (Sep 14, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> Jimmy, that Puker  effect can explain that much of a starting out drop with the 10A load??? Weird that it starts at 3.4, unless Tom's idea allows some correction. That's gonna be a problem for your dream 64458 dream machine which sucks down over 10A.


Puker :laughing:
To some degree it can. It speaks more to the internal resistance of the cell. Are this cells over current protected? The MOSFET used in the protection can cause a significant drop. Speaking of resistance...
At 10A, a 60 mOhm MOSFET would cause a 0.6V drop. 60 mOhms is about right for a small MOSFET. By what mechanism are these cells protected? Is one end of the cell warmer than the other after a 10A run?


----------



## LightForce (Sep 15, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> Damian, who makes the ballast? As has been said many times....quality of the ballast is crucial in any HID project.



Yes, my aim is to use only the best quality components. Ballast whith good efficiency and the proper lamp treatment is crucial. It's made by European company which is known for high quality here. Quite pricey, but worthy indeed. Do you know someone kind with good CNC?


----------



## Lips (Sep 15, 2007)

*2* D cells for me please







Germany?













LightForce said:


> Due to this project unfinished stage, I cannot tell more. Most things and facts would change. This is only one such a Mag, THIS may help you a bit.
> 
> Damian


----------



## LuxLuthor (Sep 15, 2007)

That's the Auerswald SYS03510 ballast.


----------



## Lips (Sep 15, 2007)

Yep


LarryK showed me that 2 stage ballast many months ago; Looks pretty good! The guy that was selling the DL50's (from Germany, can't remember his name) can get those ( he said at a good price). 




BOT

2 D cells for me


----------



## LEDcandle (Sep 15, 2007)

I'd be in for 2 - 3 D cells


----------



## Raoul_Duke (Sep 15, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> Jimmy, that Puker  effect can explain that much of a starting out drop with the 10A load??? Weird that it starts at 3.4, unless Tom's idea allows some correction. That's gonna be a problem for your dream 64458 dream machine which sucks down over 10A.



These cells do look good, but still emolis put out more voltage, at 10A,

http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=11910&d=1148246211

So I will be making many LED and Rop ( maybee 5761 ) mags with the nice runtime at a 4A draw.

I think on the 458 that I will continue with 5 Emolis, don't like the thought of 6 of these in series quite yet, but just think of the 1 D Aspheric mags that could be made and 2D rops with ~ 1 and 3/4 hours runtime.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Sep 15, 2007)

I'm still wondering if the starting 3.4V at 10A is right....given that the spec said 10A continuous. That would lead me to believe that they should be a bit more robust on the high discharge rate without falling down that much....so it's worth finding out if that is what the company expects from this 10A chart. Maybe Plasmaman was fondling this baby a little too much for its own good! :naughty: :kiss:


----------



## JimmyM (Sep 15, 2007)

I want to know what's connected to these cells. What is the exact circuitry that exists between the actual cell and plasma's wires.


----------



## plasmaman (Sep 15, 2007)

Jimmy, Lux
3 things.
Here are a couple of pics of the D cell test cradle. The +ve connects directly via the screw holding the lead connector, and the -ve connects via the spring and a separate 18awg teflon wire soldered to the connector and spring. The leads to the CBA are 12awg silicone with soldered Powerpole connectors (shop was out of red/black!).

I read up about Peukert - but this deals with capacity variances at different current loads, not voltage reductions. Peukert says that a cell's capacity to deliver energy varies (in a non linear fashion) according to the level of current drawn.
I imagine there must be science about voltage drops at higher currents as it is well known, but I haven't found it yet!

I am less surprised than you about the 3.4v starting voltage under a 1.5C load. I just got a bunch of new C'c from AW, and running tests on those at 4.5A, they all (4) consistently start at 3.5v. At 3A they start at 3.8v.
Remember that the nominal voltage of the D cells is 3.55v, (and I don't know why), whereas the C's are 3.7v - so they are very similar. The big difference for me is the ability of the D's to deliver a fairly flat output down to 3v.

However, I will ask the factory the question about this effect, and also re the high discharge protection.


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## JimmyM (Sep 15, 2007)

Certainly sturdy looking. Dang. I don't think the wiring is causing the voltage drop. That's for sure.
plasmaman, you said that these cells were not overcurrent protected, do they have low voltage shut off?
I was looking at lithium ion protection schematics. There are mosfets and diodes in the current path even if there is no overcurrent sensing resistor.
Even tiny resistances can cause a very noticable voltage drop at 10 amps.


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## LuxLuthor (Sep 15, 2007)

Only reason I'm wondering what the factory will say is their 10A continuous spec just doesn't seem to make sense with that 3.4V starting. I'm not saying this will turn out differently as a result, but I think it is a worthy issue to compare notes with them....like you are going to do! These are not your "cheap Chinese" generic batteries, so I think they expect questions & higher performance expectations like this from their other contracts. :thumbsup:


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## LuxLuthor (Sep 19, 2007)

We can't be letting this thread drift to the back pages. :candle:


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## plasmaman (Sep 19, 2007)

Don't panic - I'm waiting on a reply from the factory regarding the earlier questions, and hopefully final pricing, then we can shift up a gear!


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## cnjl3 (Sep 19, 2007)

Have you explored this issue?
AW seems to have no trouble with protected and unprotected cells.


plasmaman said:


> I might be prepared to do a GB (haven't before) and shipping batteries out of UK needs looking at in terms of regulatory issues blah blah blah....


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## plasmaman (Sep 20, 2007)

Yes I have.
Its all about the weight of lithium in each individual cell.
As far as I can see the current regulations allow you to ship (say) 50 Li C or 18650 cells together, and that is not hazardous, but one Li D would be, because the cell contains more than 1.5g of lithium equivalent and are therefore classified as dangerous goods under the UN Recommendations on the Transport of Dangerous Goods Model Regulations 12th edition.
Still working on this!


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## Neg2LED (Sep 20, 2007)

neg will buy 2.

probably.

--neg


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## cnjl3 (Sep 20, 2007)

Well I sure hope you find a workaround solution.
I'm good for two cells.
Paypal locked and loaded



plasmaman said:


> Yes I have.
> Its all about the weight of lithium in each individual cell.
> As far as I can see the current regulations allow you to ship (say) 50 Li C or 18650 cells together, and that is not hazardous, but one Li D would be, because the cell contains more than 1.5g of lithium equivalent and are therefore classified as dangerous goods under the UN Recommendations on the Transport of Dangerous Goods Model Regulations 12th edition.
> Still working on this!


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## Nebula (Sep 20, 2007)

PM - nicely done:thumbsup:. I am in for at least 2. PayPal ready to go. KK


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## elnino (Sep 26, 2007)

I would be in for 2 - 4 cells.


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## LuxLuthor (Sep 26, 2007)

plasmaman said:


> Yes I have.
> Its all about the weight of lithium in each individual cell.
> As far as I can see the current regulations allow you to ship (say) 50 Li C or 18650 cells together, and that is not hazardous, but one Li D would be, because the cell contains more than 1.5g of lithium equivalent and are therefore classified as dangerous goods under the UN Recommendations on the Transport of Dangerous Goods Model Regulations 12th edition.
> Still working on this!



Have someone stick them in a diplomatic pouch. LOL


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## LuxLuthor (Oct 13, 2007)

Just checking on things.


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## Daekar (Oct 14, 2007)

Yes, if you have any new information please let us know! I cannot express how pissed I'll be if some ridiculously illogical government regulation kills this offer.


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## plasmaman (Oct 15, 2007)

slow old business this!
I spoke with the factory last week chasing up replies to a couple of questions this thread had prompted, and also generally re +ve cap mod and pricing.
They are very busy working on 'flexible' lipo type designs at the moment, but promised me a response to the questions 'soon'.
I'll keep you all posted.


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## JimmyM (Oct 16, 2007)

Thanks for the update.


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## tino_ale (Oct 23, 2007)




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## plasmaman (Oct 29, 2007)

An update (at last) - we are still in there guys so keep lookin'!
The manufacturer is concentrating on a new 'soft' cell technology ie a flexible Li cell that can fill mainly rectangular voids ie military battery boxes, so have apologised for being slow in responding to the issues I raised with them a few weeks ago. Here is the dialogue:

*My Q*_ – “At a 10A discharge on a fully charged up (and rested) cell the voltage sags immediately from 4.2v rested to 3.4v. At lower current draws the voltage sag is much less. This is not Peukert, but more I believe to do with internal resistance in the cell – ie source impedance._
_At 10A continuous am I seeing this drop due to over discharge protection circuitry in the cell (eg Mosfet/diode etc)?”_

_*Their A *“The cell is not optimised for "high rate" ie relatively high currents. As you have seen, it will discharge at 10A, but at lower running voltages. Then the endpoint voltage (EPV) will determine whether the cell is suitable for the application._

_The lower running voltage is not due the overcharge protection circuitry (exactly the same circuitry is used in the cobalt based cell), but to the higher internal resistance of this type of cell at higher current drains. This in turn is due to the kinetics of lithium ion insertion into the cathode - it is inherently slower than for insertion into the cobalt type. The upside of course is that the capacity is 20% to 30% greater than the cobalt type._

_If you discharge the cell at 10A, it will therefore run at a lower voltage as described and may give less than expected capacity depending critically on the EPV.”_


I don't yet have an answer on pricing/availability though, but am pressing for that..........more when available.

Bearing in mind the Li D cells that are now available (Kai) these cells still look to be a big improvement, but at a price. But I still think that for an application that needs great run time, but at around 6A curent draw or less, these cells will be the dogs doodahs.


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## Daekar (Oct 29, 2007)

So they're perfect for ROP High - Lovely! Particularly when AW's reguated D driver comes out, a 3D li-ion ROP-Hi would be nice and bright, long running... Wooo!


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## dulridge (Oct 31, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> Have someone stick them in a diplomatic pouch. LOL



Utterly no chance if it is an UK diplomatic pouch. From experience. Dutch maybe but UK forget it.


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## iapyx (Nov 5, 2007)

dulridge said:


> Utterly no chance if it is an UK diplomatic pouch. From experience. Dutch maybe but UK forget it.


 
Dutch is always good 

I am in for 3 D li-ions. Maybe 2 more, depending on the price. 
They will fit in a 2D and 3D Mag without an extension I hope?

iapyx

PS. Plasmaman: I read they are protected against overcharging. Will the be protected against over discharging as well?
thanks


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## DEN (Nov 7, 2007)

Hi,

I want 2 or 4 cells.

Regards DEN


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## monkeyboy (Nov 9, 2007)

Does anyone know if the Litemania C chargers would be suitable to charge these? (obviously not with the C size cradle )

http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=160022


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## DEN (Nov 20, 2007)

Hello Plasmaman,

Can I buy this D cell now ?

Thanks reading.


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## across the pond (Jan 18, 2008)

What's the latest on this? Are we still waiting for the ok from the factory, or waiting for permission to ship them, or something else? 

Thanks for your sterling efforts Plasmaman! :twothumbs:

Derek


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## plasmaman (Jan 18, 2008)

Well, good news and bad news really.
Good news is that I finally got confirmation just this week that the factory will supply me. Bad news is pricing. We are looking at around GBP21 per cell, including sales tax (its called VAT over chaps - thats Value Added Tax ha!!) shipped to me in UK. So assuming for a moment that they can be sent by airmail to other parts of the world, we could be looking at around £25 per cell shipped. I am making nothing on that pricing.
So - How many people will pay that sort of money? This is the highest energy D cell available at the moment, but it is still Lithium so very high current draw will cause voltage sag - see the CBA tests I posted previously. I have 4 of these cells. I use 2 in a 5761 2D (with NTC), and that runs well for an hour or more. I use the others in 1D with direct drive Seoul P4, and that runs forever (5 hours +). So for the right application they are very good indeed. Mil spec construction, stainless case, flat top. So solder blob on +ve cap is required.
I would have to buy min 50 pieces, and I don't think I want to do that unless I could pre-sell. 
I need to think about this!


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## Aircraft800 (Jan 18, 2008)

Just in case anyone needed to know

today *£25 = $36.54 USD*

from http://www.x-rates.com/calculator.html


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## littlejohnle (Jan 18, 2008)

Plasaman,

You should get in contact with Kaidoman, if these cells are that good, Kaidoman with his buying power can probally stock these at a cheaper price.

You are buying in the order of about 50 pieces? Kaidoman could buy them in the 1000 at a time.

Just a thought.

By the way, i am not affiliated with him at all, he sells excellent products at great prices as i have bought stuff from him before.


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## littlejohnle (Jan 18, 2008)

sorry double post


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## Mr Happy (Jan 18, 2008)

Aircraft800 said:


> today *£25 = $36.54 USD*


While it would be wonderful if that were true, I fear it is rather closer to *£25 = $49 US :sick2:*


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## d1dd1 (Jan 18, 2008)

probably *£25 = about 36€ PayPal*


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## Rommul (Jan 18, 2008)

I am in for 6 cells at $50 each


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## dulridge (Jan 19, 2008)

Aircraft800 said:


> Just in case anyone needed to know
> 
> today *£25 = $36.54 USD*
> 
> from http://www.x-rates.com/calculator.html



Not quite - there are $1.9529 to the pound just now so £25=US$48.82

Doesn't sound like the most reliable calculator.


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## LuxLuthor (Jan 19, 2008)

I just want to point out that this is the EXACT price you told us they would likely cost back in post #119, so everyone should still be on board who supported since then.

Although I have been moving towards the Iron Phosphate (Saphion/A123) and Manganese (Emoli) safe chemistries, I would still get 2-3 of these. Did you confirm these still include the PCB features? That adds a lot of value to these. I think a new feeler topic would help, as this one is pretty old now.


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## soupdragon (Jan 19, 2008)

I'd be in for 2


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## Anders (Jan 19, 2008)

Hello.

Maybe you have interest in this cell?
* Saft Lithium LSH20 3.6V. 13.0AH *

Model Number:: Saft LSH20 Chemistry: Lithium-thionyl chloride Voltage: 3.6V Capacity: 13000mAh Diameter: 33.3mm Height: 61.6mm Weight: 100g Operating Temp Range: -60/+85C $27.55

http://www.sabahoceanic.com/epages/...ectPath=/Shops/sabahoceanic/Products/14064013

But I don't know what Lithium-thionyl chloride is?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
EDIT:Application Description:
Lithium thionyl chloride batteries are best where long storage life, high energy density and a wide temperature range are the most important factors. They are generally not well suited for high power applications. 
Typical Applications:
Card Readers
Gas Detection
GPS receivers
Memory Backup
Oil Rigging and Drilling
Automatic Meter Readers


Manufacturers:
saft,vitzro cell and tadiran

Specifications 
Cell Voltage 3.6 V 
Shelf Life 10 years at 25ºC 
Discharge Temperature -55 to 85ºC 
Power Delivery Low 

Sorry, this cell isn't well suited for high drain applications as flashlights I suppose.

End EDIT.

Anders


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## shadowjk (Jan 19, 2008)

Plus it's not rechargeable.


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## fernando (Jan 20, 2008)

I would buy 4 cells at $50 each.


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## DeLighted (Jan 26, 2008)

I'm in for 2 at $50 ea

Kent


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## flex76italy (Apr 22, 2008)

I'm also interested for the coming soon sale, put me on the list.

Thanks.


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## Wattnot (Apr 22, 2008)

I'm all for standard D sized lions. They would be a boon to Mag modification for sure!! But there are going to be some downsides.

Charging these is going to be a task. Plan on spending a lot on a charger. At least $200, probably more. And then there is a good chance you'll be using more two or three batteries per project. That much stored energy you'll want charged AND balanced. So a multiple cell charger than can put 7.5 amps in 2 to 4 batteries simultaniously in a reasonable amount of time (less than a week)? Keep that in mind. As for cheap charging options, your typical power cube charger puts out 150 ma making it a 50+ hour charge per battery. If they make one that puts out say 500 ma, you're still looking at over 15 hours per battery. A power cube charger like that will most likey not be made to tight tolerances and could be downright dangerous. If you do it that way and can live with the time, then there's balancing which is more important the larger the battery and the larger the load.

Now lets look at who's making them. I'm sure everyone has seen the threads talking about cheap batteries going . Now multiply that by a factor of FIVE and there sits your single D cell made by "not the same company" I hope.

They sound good at first but when you factor in everything, it might not be worth the hassle. Run some numbers vs battery holders with AA cells, etc. 

Maybe these would be perfect for a SINGLE cell application where charging is less of an issue because you have an extra one standing by. 

I'm just playing devil's advocate here before everyone dives without checking the water level! I would LOVE for these to be a great drop-in solution for a hotwire.


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## tino_ale (Apr 23, 2008)

After some thoughts I personnly doubt I will ever buy a non-safe chemistry li-ion D-cell. Even if it is protected, I really much prefer that the cell itselft is safe and not a grenade.

That said, if you are ready to accept the risk. I'm not sure why you say balancing is so critical?? AFAIK balancing is usefull to ensure you are not over-charging a cell in the case you charge a whole pack. Which is not the case here, if you charge them one by one.

Also, balancing is usefull to ensure you will not over-discharge a cell when used in serie. In that case, balancing alone is not enough, you also want the cells to be well matched. A perfectly balanced pack that do not have well-matched cells can also lead to an over-discharge cell (the one that has the least capacity will run empty before the others).

If you charge your cells one by one one a similar charger, they should be very well balanced at the beginning of the discharge. How well they will remain balanced at the end of the discharge depends on well the cells are matched.

At last, if these cells are protected, the PTC should prevent any cell from going over-charged/over-discharged.



Wattnot said:


> then there's balancing which is more important the larger the battery and the larger the load.


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## Frank423 (Apr 23, 2008)

Wattnot said:


> Charging these is going to be a task. Plan on spending a lot on a charger. At least $200, probably more. And then there is a good chance you'll be using more two or three batteries per project. That much stored energy you'll want charged AND balanced. So a multiple cell charger than can put 7.5 amps in 2 to 4 batteries simultaniously in a reasonable amount of time (less than a week)? Keep that in mind. As for cheap charging options, your typical power cube charger puts out 150 ma making it a 50+ hour charge per battery. If they make one that puts out say 500 ma, you're still looking at over 15 hours per battery. A power cube charger like that will most likey not be made to tight tolerances and could be downright dangerous. If you do it that way and can live with the time, then there's balancing which is more important the larger the battery and the larger the load.



 This cheapy charger charges at 2.0A, that makes 7,5/2.0= between 3 and 4 hours


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## TonyTDMD (Apr 23, 2008)

Interested too!, at least in a couple. Let us know when available!


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## Wattnot (Apr 23, 2008)

tino_ale said:


> I'm not sure why you say balancing is so critical??


 
I never said it was critical. I said it was important. A slight mismatch, like you said, is no big deal but it may not deliver optimal performance. A large mismatch can be dangerous with tiny cells, let alone D sized. 

People go through trouble taking a tiny bit of resistance out of a Mag mod to eek out that last bit of performance. Why not balance for optimal performace and battery longevity?

Again, I'm all for these things. Just know, like everything else, they're probably not going to be perfect.


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## Dodge (May 3, 2008)

Does it make sense to pay VAT on these if the majority are going be shipped out of the UK (and hence not be liable to VAT). Would it perhaps be better to have the whole batch shipped to a US address and distributed from there?


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## Raoul_Duke (May 3, 2008)

I'm happy to pay Vat....Not usually, but with these I'll make an exeption


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## DocD (May 5, 2008)

i will buy 8 batterys:twothumbs so if ever one who has soon some interest give's him a confirmed order this will only hlep make all of are dreams come ture about this battery:twothumbsthe ball is in all of our courts


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## jcvjcvjcvjcv (May 27, 2008)

Dodge said:


> Does it make sense to pay VAT on these if the majority are going be shipped out of the UK (and hence not be liable to VAT). Would it perhaps be better to have the whole batch shipped to a US address and distributed from there?


 
No, only for the US badge.

Shippingrates US > EU sucks, starting at $26

It enters my country, the customs say: Hey!, that worth more then € 22, you have to pa 19% tax. And because we were so nice doing that for you, you have to pay us € ~16. Well, quite strange that everyone is declaring their packages worth less then 20 bucks and 'Gift of no commercial value'

Or batteries: never order 32 at the same time from HK. Let it come in two packages of 16 and you pay no tax. 


*If* they are protected, *and* proved to be good *and* there is a *good *charger available for them I _might_ be interested.

Imagine six of them in a Mag 6D with a 20 Volt 50Watt bulb; plenty light and three hours runtime.  (And the weight; yeah :devil: >  )


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## Anders (Jul 9, 2008)

Hello.

Any news on this cell or other D cell Li-Ions?

The only one I am aware of is Kaidoman:
http://www.kaidomain.com/WEBUI/ProductDetail.aspx?TranID=4141

Ehh, is it safe to buy from Kaidoman:
http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=175738&page=3
Last post???, I have never heard anything like it from AW:s customer, he is the best provider of Li-Ion cells.

Is this the only one available on the web?


Anders


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## spencer (Jan 20, 2009)

Any updates on these? I'm assuming this deal won't happen anymore.


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## Morelite (Jan 20, 2009)

mcmc has one left for sale here


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## spencer (Jan 20, 2009)

Those are the cells from KD. These ones have a 50% greater capacity.


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## DocD (Feb 19, 2009)

hi,
i phoned the company today and they will sell some the price over the phone £35 each plus postage and packing and most important the correct paper work for hazimat class 9
i do not know this cost the company going to advise my sometime in the next two days and they sending me down specs and info i guess it will be the same as the OP info
the tough part is send them to the usa as air freight i just don't think it's possable, so they will have to go by sea freight and this is also a unknow cost due to the hazimat class 9 i'll work away at this over the next week or so cheers DocD


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## FredM (Feb 19, 2009)

Wattnot said:


> Plan on spending a lot on a charger. At least $200, probably more. And then there is a good chance you'll be using more two or three batteries per project. That much stored energy you'll want charged AND balanced. So a multiple cell charger than can put 7.5 amps in 2 to 4 batteries simultaniously in a reasonable amount of time (less than a week)?



Dude a Triton Jr. could easily charge one in a hour or so. (1:15) and it costs ~70 bucks.

So 2.5 hours total charging for a 2 cell light and 3.5 for a 3 cell. Not to bad. And those are only if you drain them empty, the most probably case is 50% remaining or more.


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## FredM (Feb 19, 2009)

I am in for 2 at the 25 pound price but not 35 plus shipping.

Alot more options at that price.


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## AMD64Blondie (Feb 19, 2009)

Would 3 of these Lithium D cell batteries work in a 3 D-cell Mag85? (Mine was orginally set up with a 9 AA to 3 D-cell adapter running NiMH AAs.)


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## DocD (Feb 19, 2009)

HI,
i think the price is to high too  but it is one hell of a battery for that money!!! 
But it's not about price it's if i or a shipping company can get them to the USA and though your customs and on to the buyer so i'll try to find the info to do this but i think it was the reason plasmaman did not go forward with this, maybe a bulk sale straight to the USA might be better?
who knows untill a bit more homework is done but i hopefull a way can be found cheers DocD


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## Gunnerboy (Feb 19, 2009)

AMD64Blondie said:


> Would 3 of these Lithium D cell batteries work in a 3 D-cell Mag85? (Mine was orginally set up with a 9 AA to 3 D-cell adapter running NiMH AAs.)




Yes, but there's a good probability these cells will instaflash an 1185 if you don't employ a soft-start. Large cells have less voltage sag under load, plus the 1185 is already operating close to the edge.


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## mash.m (Feb 19, 2009)

very high price, but i am interested in two of them.

markus


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## monkeyboy (Feb 20, 2009)

I'm not in the UK anymore so I'm out - sorry.


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## plasmaman (Mar 9, 2009)

I am selling a few of the 7.5ah Li D cells with custom Mags.

Sales thread here

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/225284


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## Bullet Bob (Mar 9, 2009)

So basically after 8 pages nothing has come to fruition on these batteries . Disappointing. :sigh: Did anybody try the 5000mah protected cells from Kadiomain? They are now being offered at 22.00 each with free shipping. I was going to buy two to try but I am having issues with the site and can't get the order in. I am waiting on a response from them right now.


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## VidPro (Mar 9, 2009)

Bullet Bob said:


> So basically after 8 pages nothing has come to fruition on these batteries . Disappointing. :sigh: .


 
no kidding, does this qualify as trashing a sales thread? to say "what a bunch of BS". and now if we want one its some $300.


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## spencer (Mar 9, 2009)

DocD, do they sell singles over the phone for 35 pounds each? I would like two and would definitely be willing to shell out that money for two. If I'm in Canada then they would have to ship to me via the ocean right?


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## Raoul_Duke (Mar 9, 2009)

Well I'm in the UK, and would like one or two...and as the $$ is so high against the ££ ATM it is not such a pain ...Can I buy these in the UK easily enough....I could go and get them from the site if its easier.


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## DocD (Mar 9, 2009)

It is not the fact that the company is very hard to deal with as i have now found out kudos to plasmaman for even getting the company to sell him some.
The many hassle is send them by air freight has they rate as haz-mat9 ( over 1.5 grams ) and i can find no coureir that will take this type of battery but i can send them by ship freight but it would seem that plasmaman has a way to send these ? i would check with him about this as the fines for breaking us import laws are to say elevated and most difficult to comply with paper work ? if you look though this thread you can find the company details as i did and got no were more than £30 pounds per battery i wish any one best of luck cheers DocD


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## Raoul_Duke (Mar 9, 2009)

From memory, when I did my hazardous materials by air awareness training course, Li-ion cells could go in aircraft, but only in the host /tool/ flashlight that they were designed to go in; No loose cells.
I guess that you could use/ design /mod a flashlight/ tool for them to go in and that may furfill the transport requirements...but that would have to be checked by the sender for accuracy...I may be talking nonsence.

Are you saying that after they gave you the price thay still woulden't sell you them within the UK?


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## spencer (Mar 9, 2009)

So if you are accurate with your memory the cells could be probably be shipped in a 2D flashlight (mag or other cheap option) with a 6D bulb in it? That would probably be the cheapest option. If that is the case then that might be the best way to ship them.


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## Anders (Mar 10, 2009)

Hello Bullet Bob.

Here is a thread about the cell you where asking for.

Anders


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## Bullet Bob (Mar 10, 2009)

Anders said:


> Hello Bullet Bob.
> 
> Here is a thread about the cell you where asking for.
> 
> Anders


THANKS, THAT WHAT I WAS LOOKING FOR. Wonder what the name of the company in England is that makes those 7500 mah batteries is? Perhaps a importer here could get them in with less problems and cost. It would be worth a shot.


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## DocD (Mar 11, 2009)

Hi, i've again talked to the MD of the company and the smallest order as a group buy is 50 batteries price £ 30.00 plus postage and packing and 15% VAT the exported cell will not have VAT added so a little cheaper.

Appox cost for 50 batteries to my door is £1800, £36.00 per cell x $1.38 dollars = $49.68 
now they will send a consignment straight to the USA from they factory and handle all paper work i'll hope to get a written quote within the next week.

All 50 batteries will have to be paid for, before they ship to me or the USA
there will need to be a business address in the USA for the consignment to for the paper work a home address just will not do ( factory words not mine)
So thats were we are, at hope it can happen, cheers DocD


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## plasmaman (Mar 11, 2009)

Well done DocD - I know from my own efforts how hard this has been for you. It will be interesting to see if you can presell 50 cells.

Just by way of update to some of the more recent posts in this thread I should say that of the 25 cells I bought I have a need for about 15 and will retain those.

I am offering 7 of the remaining 10 to buyers of my 1D lights and having looked at the Hazchem 9 regulations in their updated form, I believe that I can ship 1 cell with each light to the US, by normal post, without the need for hazchem labelling. Shipping without lights is more difficult.
I would tape up the contacts and ship the cell in situ inside the light.
I can offer 3 cells at £30 each plus £2.00 postage to any UK buyer who is interested in trying these out.


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## DocD (Mar 11, 2009)

hi plasmaman I've sent you a PM please take a look cheers DocD


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## Benson (Mar 11, 2009)

plasmaman said:


> I am offering 7 of the remaining 10 to buyers of my 1D lights and having looked at the Hazchem 9 regulations in their updated form, I believe that I can ship 1 cell with each light to the US, by normal post, without the need for hazchem labelling. Shipping without lights is more difficult.
> I would tape up the contacts and ship the cell in situ inside the light.
> I can offer 3 cells at £30 each plus £2.00 postage to any UK buyer who is interested in trying these out.


Is only one cell per light a limit from shipping regs, or just because they're one-cell lights? I'm curious whether 2-cell lights with 2 cells in them would work for DocD's group buy (supposing it works out that way)...

DocD: I'm definitely interested in acquiring a few, although I know I can't afford as many as I'd like. Waiting for a sign-up thread...


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## plasmaman (Mar 11, 2009)

Benson said:


> Is only one cell per light a limit from shipping regs, or just because they're one-cell lights? I'm curious whether 2-cell lights with 2 cells in them would work for DocD's group buy (supposing it works out that way)...


 
As I read the regulations up to 3 cells could be shipped with or in the equipment without the need for labelling.


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## smflorkey (Mar 11, 2009)

DocD said:


> Appox cost for 50 batteries to my door is £1800, £36.00 per cell x $1.38 dollars = $49.68
> now they will send a consignment straight to the USA from they factory and handle all paper work ...


That is wonderful news. Thanks for your efforts! 

I'll take 2 cells if this can be put together. 

Let us know what is required of the receiver. We may be able to use my employer as a real business for the USA end of a shipment. I just need to know what the liabilities might be before I try to get permission to do this. Then again, it may be less expensive to ship them to the east coast; I'm about as far from the UK as you can get in the continental USA. 

Thanks, 
Steve


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## Morelite (Mar 11, 2009)

If this goes through, I wil buy or prepay for two of them.


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## Rommul (Mar 11, 2009)

I am willing to prepay for 4 cells.


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## plasmaman (Mar 11, 2009)

plasmaman said:


> I am offering 7 of the remaining 10 to buyers of my 1D lights and having looked at the Hazchem 9 regulations in their updated form, I believe that I can ship 1 cell with each light to the US, by normal post, without the need for hazchem labelling. Shipping without lights is more difficult.
> I would tape up the contacts and ship the cell in situ inside the light.
> I can offer 3 cells at £30 each plus £2.00 postage to any UK buyer who is interested in trying these out.



DocD bought the 3 spare cells today - cheers Phil.


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## spencer (Mar 11, 2009)

When the time comes I will probably get 2. I'm trying to line up some Saft VL 34570 cells right now. We'll see which ones I'll get.


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## Morelite (Mar 11, 2009)

spencer said:


> When the time comes I will probably get 2. I'm trying to line up some Saft VL 34570 cells right now. We'll see which ones I'll get.


 I thought the Saft cells where for low drain apps since they have a rather low discharge rate. Am I mistaken or are you looking at something different.


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## spencer (Mar 11, 2009)

The VL 34570 are 5.4Ah and are good for (I don't remember!) >1C. I think these are better though.


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## DocD (Mar 11, 2009)

Hi,
if a well known and respected CPF long term member would like to pick up the USA end of this possable/might be a group buy thing, as it's all about the number's
we need a USA contact this to work?
i will pay or share the cost with the lucky person who sign up to the task, please be aware this is not for profit on my part and do this just because we can :twothumbsso please check the cost as they are posted add possable usa custom taxes and import taxes all of these things change the price and beyond my control as soon as i now a price too, USA min is 25 cell's i'll let you know, if this does not happen i'll post full details of company and contact details for any one too have a go, as it's not fair to hide this info after a honest try to buy.
it's all about the numbers so state an interest only if you a solid yes:twothumbs is in turn will go over to a GROUP BUY THREAD so not to break any rules many and hopefull thanks DocD


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## DocD (Mar 11, 2009)

saft do not sell to single buyers this i know for sure:sigh: as for any one who will sell these cell as a per item cost who knows? saft deal with a min order of 5000 cells just to be intrested if have try many time over 10 years and no luck i think you might be shock at the cost of these cell i know i was but best wishes and luck dealing with saft twice as hard as the past 3 weeks i've had :thumbsup: but i'll buy your cells if you get some for sure


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## VidPro (Mar 11, 2009)

DocD said:


> saft do not sell to single buyers this i know for sure:sigh: as for any one who will sell these cell as a per item cost who knows? saft deal with a min order of 5000 cells just to be intrested if have try many time over 10 years and no luck i think you might be shock at the cost of these cell i know i was but best wishes and luck dealing with saft twice as hard as the past 3 weeks i've had :thumbsup: but i'll buy your cells if you get some for sure


 
i have saft Dcells, through one of thier dealers after having to fill out enough paperwork and explaining my intended purposes. but at the time they werent selling protected cells.
a few years later i saw a pic of a beautifull 6amp protected D cell from saft, here in this forum, but i cant even find it on the saft site now. the ones i have could not be openly re-sold , because they were limited in even physical protection. they are excellent cells.

2005 https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/79839&highlight=SAFT aparentlly 4sevens had his hands on some too.


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## DocD (Mar 12, 2009)

hi was reading that link well done to any one who manged to buy from saft and all the forms
It's a funny thing 2005 li-ion battery $50 dollars or so 2009 still $50 dollars 
just a thought cheers DocD


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## spencer (Mar 12, 2009)

Thinking about it a little now, if I have the choice, I will get these cells over the Saft ones. I don't remember if it was mentioned earlier but are these cells protected?


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## VidPro (Mar 12, 2009)

spencer said:


> Thinking about it a little now, if I have the choice, I will get these cells over the Saft ones. I don't remember if it was mentioned earlier but are these cells protected?


 
well that is the thing, i think for most users they would be better off with even the kai or dx cells, unless they can get hold of one that has every aspect of the protection. the ones i have dont., that is why i wanted the new saft one i only saw ONE time.
plus although you can 2c discharge via the specs, that is pretty wild, to be doing that.

on the other hand, more people who could test and check and know things, and be sure of things , should get stuff that others dont know about, so we can expand options and stuff.

i want one or 2 of these cells you have going here. just because of the high capacity, but i wouldnt expect to be drawing more than 3+ amps off it , its all about for HOW LONG, not for HOW MUCH.
the setup plasmaman put them in should be just right.


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## spencer (Mar 13, 2009)

For me, these will be used in a 2D P7 build. I will only need to draw about 1.5A MAX from them. On low I would only need a a couple hundred miliamps. On high thats about a 0.2C discharge rate. With that rate on high I should see the full 7.5Ah capacity.


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## plasmaman (Mar 13, 2009)

spencer said:


> Thinking about it a little now, if I have the choice, I will get these cells over the Saft ones. I don't remember if it was mentioned earlier but are these cells protected?



Yes they are protected - here's a pic of the top of the cell, below the button.
I accidentally shorted this cell out oops so decided to strip it down to see what makes it tick.


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## Raoul_Duke (Mar 13, 2009)

plasmaman said:


> Yes they are protected - here's a pic of the top of the cell, below the button.
> I accidentally shorted this cell out oops so decided to strip it down to see what makes it tick.




So the cell was shorted, but then the protection was broken?

I would have guessed shorting a cell would just trip the protection circuit.....and that it would require to be reset by giving it a recharge.

Still I'm in for as many as five cells, if I can get some please. ( & in the UK so dont ship mine to the US :thumbsup: )


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## cnjl3 (Mar 13, 2009)

I am good for two cells.


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## DocD (Mar 16, 2009)

That's add's up to 11 cell in the usa 2 canada and 12 in the uk (10 more for me) any of the original cpf'ers that show an interest might like to show some more  interest :thumbsup:
come on your know you want these :thumbsup: mill spec,7500 mill amps, protected :twothumbs
what more could you ask for cheers DocD


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## plasmaman (Mar 16, 2009)

DocD said:


> That's add's up to 11 cell in the usa 2 canada and 12 in the uk (10 more for me) any of the original cpf'ers that show an interest might like to show some more  interest :thumbsup:
> come on your know you want these :thumbsup: mill spec,7500 mill amps, protected :twothumbs
> what more could you ask for cheers DocD



DocD - did you receive the cells I sent you?


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## PhantomPhoton (Mar 16, 2009)

I'm still interested in a couple of these. It'd be nice to get a groupbuy for those of us in the states.


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## Benson (Mar 16, 2009)

DocD said:


> That's add's up to 11 cell in the usa 2 canada and 12 in the uk (10 more for me) any of the original cpf'ers that show an interest might like to show some more  interest :thumbsup:
> come on your know you want these :thumbsup: mill spec,7500 mill amps, protected :twothumbs
> what more could you ask for cheers DocD


Just think, 2C is about 50W per cell...  6D Mag, AlanB's driver, and a 64663 for ~25 minute 8000lm with killer stealth. How can you argue with that?

Not sure if you're counting me in yet, or for how many (I said earlier I'd be in for "some"), but you can put me down for at least 2. I'd like 4 or 6, but I'll have to see what my finances look like when it's time to pay for them.


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## TnC_Products (Mar 16, 2009)

You can count me in for a few also! (3 at least)


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## flex76italy (Mar 16, 2009)

Interested as well here in Italy


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## smflorkey (Mar 16, 2009)

DocD said:


> That adds up to 11 cells in the usa 2 canada and 12 in the uk (10 more for me) ...


DocD, I just built a spreadsheet in Google that I'll try to share into the thread later today. Starting from the beginning of the thread, my count is 

Australia: 3
Canada: 2
Germany: 4
Italy: 3
Singapore: 2
UK: 21
USA: 51
unknown: 34
--------------
total: 120

Only 31 of those commitments are posted in 2009 so we may want confirmation (if not PayPal) before buying the cells. 

Thanks for your efforts. I'm looking forward to a 2-D MagLite with some punch. :duck:

EDIT: Google spreadsheet is now published at http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pud_AZvnXLwB3pcZ-IcCWfQ

Shalom, 
Steve


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## DocD (Mar 17, 2009)

Hi, smflorkey thanks for that it, would be great if all that showed interest in 2007/8 said yes to a confirmed buy, i'll try PM'ing them to see if they still have interest.
Still need a man in the USA who handle the USA side of things if will get to 50 comfirmed. (min order to the usa is 25 cells)
i think a long term, respected, big name CPF member, any takers
thanks DocD 
yes got them bad boys :thumbsup: cheers plasmaman


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## DocD (Mar 17, 2009)

hi, here the email from the company

Dear Phil

Thanks for your call today. Following our conversation, 
Please note that both cells are fitted with “K2” protection as standard.
Also please note the INR34600 cell has passed UN transportation testing, not undergoing as suggested in our data sheet.
I confirm that the unit price of either cell type for a quantity of 50 off is £30 ex works. I also attach our Terms and Conditions for your information.

The cells would be shipped in Class 9 boxes of 25 by surface transport. Our estimated costs for shipping are:

50 cells to Guildford £26.24
25 cells to Guildford £26.24
25 cells to US (NY) £275 , air transport. For sea transport a similar price, if not higher as sea freight is set up for larger quantities generally.
Transport companies tell me there is a minimum price due to the hazardous goods documentation and customs charges, but as the quantities rise the surface transport will become more economical and the air less so . 
The figure quoted would be almost exactly the same for 250 cells as for 25 cells, due to the minimum charges 

If you wish to proceed, please send an order and we will respond with a pro-forma invoice for you up-front payment (since you are a new customer).

As you can see they can go by air this works out if 25 batteries at £11.00 /50 batteries £6.50 and so on. 
I think this is the way to send this battery as getting caught by US custom is a very bad idea and the fines only upto $50.000 dollars 

nominal voltage:3.55v
rated capacity:7.5ah
height:60.1mm +/- 0.2mm
diameter:33.9mm +/- 0.1mm
weight:143g 
discharge temp range:-40c to +70c
charge temp range:0c to 50c
max continuous discharge current:10A
end of discharge voltage:2.5v
end of charge voltage:4.2v +/- 0.05v
VERY IMPORTANT
the battery has an internal fuse at 12amps if this cell shorted out,or chargeing input amps is over 1.75 amps YOU can kill this cell
this internal fuse is a one shot deal it will not reset because it a safety fuse 
this is why plasaman battery died 

more info from CEO, pluse amps up to 18amps 3 second pluse and will hold up to 14amps

cheers DocD


cheers DocD


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## plasmaman (Mar 17, 2009)

Don't forget the VAT Phil when you are doing your sums....


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## DocD (Mar 17, 2009)

Good point there, as there going over sea then no vat on the USA batteries just to ask how did you kill that cell of your's? cheers DocD


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## SilverFox (Mar 17, 2009)

Hello DocD,

If this is correct...



DocD said:


> VERY IMPORTANT
> the battery has an internal fuse at 12amps if this cell shorted out,or chargeing input amps is over 1.75 amps YOU can kill this cell
> this internal fuse is a one shot deal it will not reset because it a safety fuse
> 
> cheers DocD



You should add an alert that people should be very careful when choosing the charging current. 

If I were to charge a cell like this on a hobby charger, I would set the charger to 5 amps and go from there. The 1.75 amp restriction on charge rate makes charging setup very important.

Also, it is a somewhat normal practice to parallel cells for charging. When hooking cells in parallel, you can exceed the 1.75 amp restriction during the surge current if the voltages of the cells are a little different.

Perhaps you can check on this again and make sure this is the correct limit on charging current.

Tom


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## DocD (Mar 17, 2009)

Hi silverfox, comany say 1.75 max charging amps for 1 cell as these cells are mainly use in battery packs with RC type protection set up for muilt cell but as we know most are square and we need round.
but i think this has been talk about on page 4 by lux luthor and jimmy m but maybe not in the same way?
but i will check will the company about the max charge rate with 2,3,4,5,6 cell in parallel but this may take a little time to get a answer
cheers Docd


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## DocD (Mar 17, 2009)

Hi, i have PM all that showed a interest all the way back in 2007 up till 2009, 
here's hoping some still have some cash a need for these cells
Will let all know soon on the numbers. 
cheers DocD


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## DeLighted (Mar 18, 2009)

I'd be interested in 5.



Thanks, Kent :wave:


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## DocD (Mar 18, 2009)

The answer from the ceo on sliverfox post below

"You should add an alert that people should be very careful when choosing the charging current. 

If I were to charge a cell like this on a hobby charger, I would set the charger to 5 amps and go from there. The 1.75 amp restriction on charge rate makes charging setup very important.

Also, it is a somewhat normal practice to parallel cells for charging. When hooking cells in parallel, you can exceed the 1.75 amp restriction during the surge current if the voltages of the cells are a little different.

Perhaps you can check on this again and make sure this is the correct limit on charging current."

CEO anwser 
when chargeing in parallel the charging amps is per cell
1 cell =1.75
2 cells=3.50
3 cells =5.25
and so on.
the discharge amps is the same
1 cell =12amps
2cells =24amps
3 cells = 36amps 
and so on.

When chargeing or place in two cell together for chargeing, balance voltage between cell is a must, but he is getting back to me after the teck guy check this out
But in there normal use for these cell they are built in a battery pack and are never disconected after they are assemble so chargeing surge is not an issue.
the internal fuse is a thermal type and help to discharge the voltage from the cell when a over voltage happens this is the reason why max chargeing amps is 1.75 as it's the max it can handle with the control from the protection circuit.

Please note this info is from the CEO of the company.

I hope this helps silverfox cheers DocD


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## SilverFox (Mar 18, 2009)

Hello DocD,

In that case, make sure you warn everyone that the maximum charge current is 1.75 amps. Or, if you parallel cells, multiples of 1.75 amps. And be sure to warn about paralleling cells of unequal voltages.

Tom

Upon thinking on this a little more, I am not sure they are on the same page that we are on. They may only be able to handle 1.75 amps through their balance circuits, and are listing that as a maximum charge rate. It seems to me that if a cell can be discharged at 12 amps, it could handle a 0.7C charge rate. Does anyone have any of these cells? If so, what charge rate was used to charge them and how well did it work out?

At any rate, the bottom line is that you have to go with what they say, so be sure to warn about the maximum charge rate.


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## spencer (Mar 18, 2009)

If the cells are protected, wouldn't the protection circuit kick in before this fuse blew? Or is the protection in these cells only for overcharge/discharge?


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## DocD (Mar 18, 2009)

As with all things, what i am learn is this

1 A high discharge li-ion d cell is not yet possable, no?, it's just no one has made it yet.

2 If it could be made, it's not going to be in this chemistry there are better ones.

3 The market is limited to small numbers and even smaller number of uses.

4 Other chemistry are now available with better discharge rate but not the same voltage and are safe, meaning it will not go bang or burn your house down.

5 The bigger the cell gets it's going to hit limits,i mean to say for the greater power stored is off set against discharge rate befor thermal runaway happens and we all know what that means.

6 The protection gives two things to this battery total safety and overcharge, this cuts in at 4.35 volts and 1.75amps just do-not exceed this rule or you risk blowing that fuse, stop at 4.19 volts you just have to follow the instructions

At this time it's the most bang for a lot of bucks and you still have to follow the rules or better just to give the cost of the cell to the homeless.
There is a super discharge cell in the pipe line, but less power and it's going to be years befor we see it in the open market, but we have it other types of battery for heavy use.

i've charged the three cell with a BC6 at 1.5 amps stoping at 4.19 volts and this is all i need, i'll have an AW soft start and a 12v 75watt osram i'll see how this work out at the weekend 
cheers DocD


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## plasmaman (Mar 18, 2009)

SilverFox said:


> Hello DocD,
> 
> In that case, make sure you warn everyone that the maximum charge current is 1.75 amps. Or, if you parallel cells, multiples of 1.75 amps. And be sure to warn about paralleling cells of unequal voltages.
> 
> ...



I already have these cells. I only charge them individually, and never at more than 1amp. I have never had an issue (other than the fuse I blew on one, but that was me being particularly careless working on a metal bench - duh)


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## SilverFox (Mar 18, 2009)

Hello Plasmaman,

I am just trying to understand how they manage to have different circuit paths for charging and discharging. If both paths are the same, then charging at 5 amps would not be a problem. What they are indicating is that the current follows a different path during charging, and I am just trying to understand how they do that...

Tom


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## Morelite (Mar 18, 2009)

Maybe a diode on each path but in opposite polarity.


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## DocD (Mar 19, 2009)

hi sliverfox your right, the battery does act in both ways when the overcharge comes into play
the company say the chargeing is pluse on and off in time segments, and in the off time draws power from the cell to discharge it and when this is done back on to the chargeing side of this closes allowing the cell to charge
the fuse/circuit is thermal base and must covert excess voltage and amps into small amount of heat not enough the blow this fuse or raise the temp any were near danger levels, chargeing at say 5 amps the circuit may not protect the cell as the internal temp raised and blows the fuse befor the big bang happens, but this is how i understand it works?
cheers DocD


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## petrev (Mar 19, 2009)

Hi

PDF Datasheets

K2 Protection Circuit
http://www.mediafire.com/file/nk2zymenmm0/AGM-v3enhanced_k2.pdf

Cell Data for similar cell (34600-5.2Ah)
http://www.mediafire.com/file/kmttezj00mn/AGM-v3ICR34600.pdf

Data graph shows charging at C/3 

K2 datasheet suggests to me that circuit acts as charger/discharger to dissipate overcharge current and that is the limiting factor for damage - may not be an issue with a correctly calibrated and acting charger that is cutting off below the set overcharge protection level ?

Cheers
Pete


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## SilverFox (Mar 19, 2009)

Hello DocD and Pete,

OK, now this is making sense...

In order to enhance safety, the IEC has added a "continuous charge" criteria to the safety tests done on Li-Ion battery packs. 

The way that I read this is that when the cell reaches the overcharge detection voltage, the protection circuit will kick in and bleed the voltage down to the release voltage. It can only dissipate a certain amount of current. If that current is exceeded, the fuse blows and the cell no longer works.

The safest way to insure that maximum current is not exceeded is to simply limit the charge rate to the maximum dissipation rate. This way, if your charger malfunctions and does not terminate, you limit the damage. This also allows for the use of less sophisticated chargers.

The next question is if the protection circuit is always activated, or if it only becomes activated during an overcharge condition?

If my charger uses the CC/CV algorithm, and never exceeds 4.200 volts at any time during the charge, I don't think any current flows through the protection circuit safety fuse, so there should be no restriction on the charge current, up to the normal maximum of a 1C rate.

This brings up a specific question...

If the cell voltage is 3.60 volts, and the charging rate is 7.5 amps, will the protection circuit fuse blow?

I don't have the answer to this question, but I would think that there would be no problem. The charge current limit only should kick in when the protection circuit is activated. As I mentioned earlier, with a 7.5 Ah cell I wouldn't think twice about charging it at 5 amps. However, my charger does not exceed 4.200 volts at any time during the charge, so it is my thought that the protection circuit would never be activated.

Tom


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## petrev (Mar 19, 2009)

SilverFox said:


> Hello DocD and Pete,
> 
> OK, now this is making sense...
> 
> ...


 
Hi Tom

That's my reading of the specs but a definitive answer should be obtained from AGM Tech with a carefully framed question ? or a cell could be (possibly) sacrificed to the normal 1C max charge rate under test conditions ! ! ! Potentially expensive test though . . .

There may be other factors such as cell warming during charge in these rather larger cells ! ! !

Cheers
Pete


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## DocD (Mar 19, 2009)

hi been back on the phone with AGM and the ceo said the following on the questions
1 K2 only becomes actvie when a cell voltage or charging voltage is great then 4.35 volt at this time any charging amps over 1.75amps will cause the fuse to blow.
2 you can charge the cell at 3amps or 5amps, its the charging voltage that is most important allowing this to go over 4.35volts when charging and the fuse will blow 
3 the charger input voltage IS NOT the same as cell voltage, the terminal cell voltage is 4.19 volt and but the voltage from the charger must NOT exceed 4.35 volts if this possable, you can charge the cell at 3 amps, 5 amps
5 if your charger voltage must never be above 4.35 volt
so in summary
input charge volts must not be over 4.35v at any time during the charging cycle 
choose the charging voltage for this cell at 4.2v nice and safe and its below the K2 activate voltage at 4.35v 
Cell voltage hot of the charger should be 4.2 volt max. 
i hope this help and once again silverfox is right in his thinking
cheers DocD


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## SilverFox (Mar 19, 2009)

Hello DocD,

Thanks for clearing that up.

Please ignore any alerts and warnings that I talked about earlier.

Tom


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## spencer (Mar 19, 2009)

I think I got this now. If you have a good charger that will not charge over 4.35V (it should only be 4.2V max though) then you can safely charge this cell at any current (within reason). So if I were to purchase this charger say then I could charge these cells at the max rate of the charger (7A)?


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## DocD (Mar 19, 2009)

right we need to make it clear 

if the chargeing voltage is above 4.35 volt and your charge rate is above 1.75 amps, you will blow the fuse and this battery is nothing more than a paper weight
max charging voltage to be safe, no more than 4.20v at any time when charging one cell and a terminal voltage of 4.20v for one cell
i think 3 amps is a happy medium
or air on the safe side and charge at less than 1.75amp so if needed the K2 can kick and do it's job, to be safe choose 1 amp or 1.5amp


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## DocD (Mar 19, 2009)

Please any one look for a battery charger that controls the charging voltage will need to check with cpf'ers like silverfox or lux luthor as i think they have more of an idea than me, may some idea from the two might help out ? or start a thread ?


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## Benson (Mar 19, 2009)

So, if you had a series pack of these (without balance taps), does this mean you could balance them by charging at, say, 1.5A till the pack voltage reaches 4.35V per cell or higher, and holding them there long enough to bring all cells up to a full charge?

Not real healthy for the batteries (since K2 doesn't activate until 4.35V, I assume that means the cells are held at 4.35V the whole time), but easy enough to do every _n_ cycles to keep the pack balanced, and just charge CC-CV 4.2V/cell the rest of the time.

EDIT: Read again more carefully, and this actually shouldn't hurt the cells -- the terminal cell voltage is 4.19V regardless of the applied voltage.


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## DocD (Mar 19, 2009)

As we are moving along here, i'm still looking for a upstanding CPF senior member to handle the USA side of things  so roll up roll up don't be shy.


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## VidPro (Mar 19, 2009)

actually that did not make a lot of sence, is there a slight language barrier in the communications?

if its fused and protected, then it is a good thing, the protection does the job of protection, and the fuse does the job that protection cant because of the delay in the protection curcuit.

protection has a very tiny delay in it actuating, with a fuse added if the user (or charger) goes crasy and inputs wild ammounts in when its charged the fuse breaks backing up the protection limitations. 
also a fuse could be just added to the system reguardless of the protection, for quick blow safety on major input output, just to back up the protection, and keep things slightly safer, remember electronics can turn to carbon when treated poorly.

(or that is the way i read it). other things dont make sence.
it is not logical to charge these things very fast anyways, i keep indicating that they are usually large CAPACITY and not usually intended for extreeme input output speeds.

In SERIES there is not any way for single cell Protection to do anything more than Cut-OFF. When the curcuit is "Open" on ONE cell, the curcuit is "open" through the entire series set of items, so no flow of current can exist once ONE protected cell in the series protection engages. this (as usual) disallows for any balancing of the cells as long as they are in series, but STILL prevents ANY cell from going to high or to low, because each cell HAS its protection. Protected but not balancable.
Even "pack protection" with series cells generally works the same way without "balancing" taps balancing connections or balancing protection used in the pack, which is uncommon, but becomming more common.
so unless you put in BAlancing on ANY of this stuff, there will not BE balancing, and IF it really does allow 4.35V (which is possible) for its protection High, then you probably wouldnt want to "test" that at any rate without being very carefull, and knowing how close that is to gassing.


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## Benson (Mar 20, 2009)

VidPro said:


> it is not logical to charge these things very fast anyways, i keep indicating that they are usually large CAPACITY and not usually intended for extreeme input output speeds.


But it's not logical that you could discharge at up to 12A, and only charge at 1.75A; there's nothin "extreme" about charging at 0.5C, yet initial information was that this was not possible.



VidPro said:


> In SERIES there is not any way for single cell Protection to do anything more than Cut-OFF.


But there is -- you can charge at over 4.35V, up to 1.75A, and the cell will not charge above 4.19V. The protection circuit here can shunt current past the cell, and it's this bypass that's protected at 1.75A by a fuse. This is not ordinary protection; it does things other protection doesn't. Think of a 4.2V Zener diode in parallel with the cell, although this is obviously more sophisticated (as the Zener would simply blow with too much current, leaving the cell unprotected).


----------



## netprince (Mar 20, 2009)

I am interested in 2 cells to the US.


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## VidPro (Mar 20, 2009)

Benson said:


> But it's not logical that you could discharge at up to 12A, and only charge at 1.75A; there's nothin "extreme" about charging at 0.5C, yet initial information was that this was not possible.
> 
> But there is -- you can charge at over 4.35V, up to 1.75A, and the cell will not charge above 4.19V. The protection circuit here can shunt current past the cell, and it's this bypass that's protected at 1.75A by a fuse. This is not ordinary protection; it does things other protection doesn't. Think of a 4.2V Zener diode in parallel with the cell, although this is obviously more sophisticated (as the Zener would simply blow with too much current, leaving the cell unprotected).


 
while most of the time i would agree with you, that just simply isnt taking the facts about what we GET into play. and it also assumes that they have done things that are just not done.
there is no shunting of the power across a battery, even though there could be a post draining balancer, which is how one type of pack protection balancer curcuit works.

if you want to charge the battery at 7amps, be my guest, we learn great things from that, like when i learned that a saft D cell can shoot flames out of it very long distances , when charged at only 1C.

i just think that the idea of using a more volitile and dangerous battery should be done with at least the safety we have learnd from blowing up others. and some idea that a battery has magic protection balancer in it , WHEN they wont even do that with the rest of the stuff? ? sure they Squeese out a battery with some descent capacity today, and suddenly it has in it what no other cell has had before  in ya dreams 

if you want to test that, then i hope you post your results, myself just learning from others and testing the smaller cells for the same reactions is sufficent. mabey we can get Plasmaman to sacrafice a few more for the team 

the only reason i got to even say that, is because after shooting flames out of a D cell from a 1C charge, the user did not POST it, if they had people would be all over it. that which is not seen, does not mean it didnt happen.

uhh have you messed with zeners in this type of application? i find they are generally worthless cheap fix items, that blow power out for nothing usefull, and are only ever applied when making dump and run curcuitry. the zener came about as a BY-Product of a breaking diode  not as a regulation item. just because logs roll down a hill, doesnt mean we should try and make them wheels 

i just think if were going to get some cheap cell that barly holds up its own voltage under load, is obviously agressivly high capacity which Generally means its NOT built like a tank or designed for high input-ouput, that we could use it within the logical paremeters of the item, and be happy that we HAVE a battery that is 3 times the capacity of a 18650 and can be used in place of a 18650, where all we had was AIR around a 18650, and limited capacity.
That we have the item that FITs the hole, and uses that hole for to achieve major capacity, but nooo, that isnt good enough , now we are going to try and stuff it in series, charge it in series, and fast charge it  whats next trying to get 50Watts out of it with a incan heater bulb?
why cant we just be happy with excessivly long runtime from a high capacity , NOT high load, battery?


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## DocD (Mar 20, 2009)

Hi vidpro and benson
you both right and may i add 
1 K2 does not balance cell in parallel K2 is a safety against low amp, high voltage overcharge it WILL NOT act like a balance when 2,3,4 or more cell are in parallel.

2 K2 this not the the real sense of the word protection more a safty system for the cell in there ever day use these are built into battery packs with RC type protection and balance curcuit.

3 K2 does not control the terminal voltage of the cell YOUR charger DOES.

4 K2 thermal fuse is a safety against over discharge greater than 12amps.

this cell has a discharge limit so it must have a charging limit
agm said 3 or 5 amps, but if the charging volts exceed 4.35 v at any time, then its game over
think here if you could pumps 7 amps the cell temp would raise and as it as stated in the K2 there are limit ?
i don't think i'll be doing this, as i just do not need a super fast charge cell if i did i would go buy some LiFe-Po4's 
cheers DocD


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## Benson (Mar 20, 2009)

VidPro said:


> while most of the time i would agree with you, that just simply isnt taking the facts about what we GET into play. and it also assumes that they have done things that are just not done.
> there is no shunting of the power across a battery, even though there could be a post draining balancer, which is how one type of pack protection balancer curcuit works.
> 
> if you want to charge the battery at 7amps, be my guest, we learn great things from that, like when i learned that a saft D cell can shoot flames out of it very long distances , when charged at only 1C.
> ...


Well, the manufacturer _says_ it has it, and it's certainly not being sold at an unreasonably low price for a battery of this size and level of protection.



> if you want to test that, then i hope you post your results, myself just learning from others and testing the smaller cells for the same reactions is sufficent. mabey we can get Plasmaman to sacrafice a few more for the team


Well, I might, because I'm quite sure it would work (though it may be hard on the batteries; I'm not quite sure I'm understanding right that the battery does stop at 4.19; it may be overcharged to 4.35), but I'm unlikely to, because to me the main application where charging all the cells at once is useful is the 10-20 AA hotwires, where individual charging and batteries become unwieldy. To me, dropping 4 D cells out of a Mag and charging separately every time, is easier than putting in a charging jack and making sure nothing gets in it when not charging.

But I probably will charge them at well over 1.75A, because the manufacturer has stated this is safe (reversing the misunderstanding of their earlier statements), and because it's actually useful. Results will be forthcoming.


> uhh have you messed with zeners in this type of application? i find they are generally worthless cheap fix items, that blow power out for nothing usefull, and are only ever applied when making dump and run curcuitry. the zener came about as a BY-Product of a breaking diode  not as a regulation item. just because logs roll down a hill, doesnt mean we should try and make them wheels


In that type of application, meaning, to dump excess power?! No way! I said you _wouldn't_ do it that way; you'd use a zener, if at all, only as a voltage reference to control a transistor to dump the current for light overloads. They're good as voltage references, but it's imperative to keep the power (and hence the current) within specs, which are usually _quite_ low. Any use of them to directly dump energy is almost guaranteed to overheat and blow them; that was meant only conceptually.



> i just think if were going to get some cheap cell that barly holds up its own voltage under load, is obviously agressivly high capacity which Generally means its NOT built like a tank or designed for high input-ouput, that we could use it within the logical paremeters of the item, and be happy that we HAVE a battery that is 3 times the capacity of a 18650 and can be used in place of a 18650, where all we had was AIR around a 18650, and limited capacity.


It's 3 times the capacity of an 18650, but it's also 3 times the _size_ of an 18650 -- it's not an amazingly high-capacity cell that should need to be babied. Again, it's rated for 12A discharge (1.6C); that's not out of line for the cells we're familiar with, which are often rated for 2C, but sometimes 1.5C. There's no reason I know to consider 1.75A (0.23C) charge rates "logical parameters", especially _after_ the manufacturer has clarified that the 1.75A limit only applies above 4.35V.


> That we have the item that FITs the hole, and uses that hole for to achieve major capacity, but nooo, that isnt good enough , now we are going to try and stuff it in series, charge it in series, and fast charge it  whats next trying to get 50Watts out of it with a incan heater bulb?
> why cant we just be happy with excessivly long runtime from a high capacity , NOT high load, battery?


Well, the series charge + balance, as I said, I probably won't try, as it doesn't offer much advantage, and I still have some doubts over whether it's "safe" (cells only reach 4.19V) or whether it just "works" (cells are overcharged to 4.35V, and don't vent at that overcharge). As for the fast charge, it's not a fast charge, IMHO; I thought the term "fast charge", for Li-ions, generally meant over 1C; going 0.3C isn't a fast charge, nor (since the manufacturer has stated they're good up to 5A charge) at all pushing things; recharging in 2 to 3 hours instead of 5+ seems like a good idea, as I don't like to charge unattended.

Pulling 50W? No, they rated it at 12A, so that's only 44.4W -- I'll probably keep it below 25W/cell, actually. Certainly I could use it for low-draw only, like a high-capacity 18650, and I may get a 1D Mag at some point to do just that with a P7, but since it has raised specs in other areas as well as capacity, why _shouldn't_ I use it for higher-performance applications that remain within those specs?

Anyhow, supposing this deal goes down (and it looks promising!), I will post back with results, good or bad, of whatever stresses I put these poor batteries through.


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## VidPro (Mar 20, 2009)

i donno, i look at the graph and that isnt Par for a battery that is going to enjoy high loads, and seeings that the other competitive items are 4.8amp 5.2Amp and 6 Amp, i would assume like all the rest of this stuff generally acts that the 7+ amp one has the same caveats of other high capacity cells.

12Amp possible discharge ??? so, Pulse for how long at what voltage? where is the spec sheet, all i have seen so far is a graph that defined it pretty well, as would be expected.

you can look at THAT graph and define those kinds of paremeters from it, then we must assume that the tester has some flaws in the testing parameters.

analogy:
if i am told that a mazzarati goes 220 MPH , and everyone who buys a mazzarati takes it out on the freeway at 220, wraps it around trees, then Mazaratties become very hard to get ahold of, cost a whole lot , insurance is hard to get on them, and the guberment puts all kinsa restrictions on it and all.

there was a totally cool 60AMP li-ion battery that was easily available on the battery site, now it is no more :-( 
we have had Many D battery sales avilable here and they often end , because of high expectations , and low reality, so then we Loose availabilty again, why do we want to take this golden goose and turn it inside out , when we can get golden eggs out of it for years ?


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## DocD (Mar 20, 2009)

As we are moving along here, i'm still looking for a upstanding CPF senior member to handle the USA side of things  so roll up roll up don't be shy.
If a usa handler can't be found? then all mine and plasmamans hard work and phone calls are going to go to waste  sooner i hope than later and will turn into a sale thread on the marketplace cheers DocD


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## spencer (Mar 21, 2009)

Just confirming that the cost of this cell is £30 plus £11 to send it to the states so a total of £41 a cell?

Can someone volunteer to handle this stateside? I really want this to go through.


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## DocD (Mar 23, 2009)

the cost is £30.00 pounds plus if only 25 go to the usa p&p £11.00, i'm hoping for about 30cells
Please note i have NO idea about the custom set-up in the USA import duty and taxes as this is a bulk package that will past though USA custom hands so if any one could work the duty or tax on the value lets say $1750.00 dollars ( 30 cells x £30 + £11.00 p&p x $1.40 )we might get close to answer:thumbsup:
UK cost are £30.00 + £1.50 + vat= £36.23 to my door based on 25 cells then reset to the new owner £41.00 per cell at your door.
As said before it's all about getting 50 cell i,m hope that the interest shown in this thread will carry over to the sales thread soon to be posted in the marketplace :thumbsup:i'm taking 10 cells for myself so 40 left
i hope this happens cheers and keep reading and showing your interest here thanks DocD


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## plasmaman (Mar 23, 2009)

DocD said:


> the cost is £30.00 pounds plus if only 25 go to the usa p&p £11.00, i'm hoping for about 30cells
> Please note i have NO idea about the custom set-up in the USA import duty and taxes as this is a bulk package that will past though USA custom hands so if any one could work the duty or tax on the value lets say $1750.00 dollars ( 30 cells x £30 + £11.00 p&p x $1.40 )we might get close to answer:thumbsup:
> As said before it's all about getting 50 cell i,m hope that the interest shown in this thread will carry over to the sales thread soon to be posted in the marketplace :thumbsup:i'm taking 10 cells for myself so 40 left
> i hope this happens cheers and keep reading and showing your interest here thanks DocD



Phil - don't forget the VAT that will be charged on the sale to you of the cells.
You need a US customer that can be invoiced direct by the factory for the full 25 cell package not only for shipping purposes, but also to ensure the sale of those cells is not subject to VAT.


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## DocD (Mar 23, 2009)

thanks for the reminder but were sort of still waiting for the USA side of this to be pick-up, by upstanding senior member and with a business address, this is to tick all the boxes for AGM paperwork.
any chance of the link to the Hazmat rules were you read you can send 3cells at a time by airmail? and not break any laws? cheers DocD


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## VidPro (Mar 23, 2009)

DocD said:


> thanks for the reminder but were sort of still waiting for the USA side of this to be pick-up, by upstanding senior member and with a business address, this is to tick all the boxes for AGM paperwork.
> any chance of the link to the Hazmat rules were you read you can send 3cells at a time by airmail? and not break any laws? cheers DocD


 
once its IN the states, they can be shipped (legally and within all the Rules) by Ups ground, which now has added one more little warning to the package, and mabey a bit of extra paperwork, the air regulations are for the purposes of human transport with luggage, basically the battery shipments now stay on the "ground" (or in ups cargo planes when they decide).
also some of the regs for shipping (USPS) and even tagging, are about the quantity of lithium per shipment, sending 2 (D) might be easy sending 3 , might best be done with 2 packages.

heck USPS will freak out if you send flour  or an alarm clock , best to keep it simple and send it with the people who will actually deliver it TO the addresses on the package, UPS which means More money, better reliabilty, but no less package smashing.

at any rate MOST of the stupidity in shipping has been flawed by PACKING IMO, weather it has big radioactive flags on the side or not, some peple still cant pack a battery for proper shipping, even if its thier frilling JOBs. argg. so when it comes to How-To about anybody could do better than How-Done, all they have to do is try.

i would rather see a well packaged shipment go by air than the slop jobs of packing that we get by ground.

i have no idea how it gets across the ocean (inc hawaii) , slow boat, or well marked cargo shipment, or put on NON-passenger planes (that is one reason its marked). well i do know some other overseas ways, but not usefull to discuss those.


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## plasmaman (Mar 23, 2009)

DocD said:


> thanks for the reminder but were sort of still waiting for the USA side of this to be pick-up, by upstanding senior member and with a business address, this is to tick all the boxes for AGM paperwork.
> any chance of the link to the Hazmat rules were you read you can send 3cells at a time by airmail? and not break any laws? cheers DocD



Just emailed those to you Phil.


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## DocD (Mar 23, 2009)

Thanks for the link :thumbsup: i'll take a read and thanks to vidpro for you info too cheers DocD


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## DocD (Mar 24, 2009)

Any one got any more info on duty or tax when these hit the USA i would like to give everone a cost per cell but i do need a little help  plus we are still looking for the USA handler for the cells there must be an upstanding CPF member that fits the bill cheers DocD


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## spencer (Mar 24, 2009)

I checked into getting the cells to Canada from the USA. I was told they could be just dropped in the mail (but I don't think the lady at Canada Post knew what she was talking about) or they can be delivered by UPS with no extra cost, paperwork, or markings. That is for two cells.

DocD, I sent you a PM. Your reply is awaited.


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## strideredc (Mar 26, 2009)

i am in sussex, what will each cell cost? i might be in for 3-4?


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## DocD (Mar 28, 2009)

Hi,still looking for a USA handler for this and any info on USA import duty/taxes on a value around $1750.00 
thanks to all that have posted info cheers DocD


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## DocD (Mar 30, 2009)

Hi,
Just one more time :thumbsup: still hopefull, a nice CPF member might come with some info to my last post and even better pick up the USA side of things,
going to try for a few more days if no one comes forward ? well,
I'm sad to say going to put this back to bed and let someone else have a go, i'm a bit sad over this as i and plasmaman put quite a bit of time and effort in :sigh: 
but thanks to all and the posted and info, hopefully it might happen :twothumbs
cheers DocD


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## DocD (Apr 2, 2009)

just a little lift for this:thumbsup: please read from page 8 onwards or the whole thread cheers DocD


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## netprince (Apr 10, 2009)

Bump...


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## plasmaman (Apr 25, 2009)

lights still available....


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## marcinebike (Jun 14, 2010)

Hi guys,

Sorry that the bulk purchase didn't work out. Could someone please post the manufacturer this thread was based around? I'd be quite interested in buying 50 units myself as I want to make up a 20s2p battery pack for an ebike.

I know that for the purchase of smaller amounts people here are interested in having a regular user of the forum organise it as there is obviously trust issues with prepaying for a bunch of expensive batteries. I'm not sure if there would be much interest but I'm happy to try an order of 100 and cough up the total $$ myself if there's enough people willing to buy some from me afterwards, though because it's a risk and a fair bit of money to dish out I'd ask for a token profit on each unit, say a max of AUD$5 each on top of cost.

I'm aware that it's not the 'feeling' of these forums to make a profit off each other, though as I'd be dishing out a lot of $$ to start with, plus hassle of lots of time organising P+H for each small sale afterwards I think it's understandable as I might not be getting my money back if I don't sell the ones I don't need.

Even if this is not something anyone's interested in doing, I'd still LOVE to find out the 'company' that's referred to on these posts. If anyone could help please post some info, (or PM me if you'd prefer)

Thanks a lot!!!

Regards,

Marcin


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## spencer (Jun 14, 2010)

After all this time I would still be interested in a few cells if you can get a group buy together. I don't think adding $5 to each cell would be bad if your forking out the cash up front.


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## dizzy (Jun 14, 2010)

I would be in for around 4 of these.


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## smflorkey (Jun 14, 2010)

marcinebike, I'd still be interested and should actually have funds soon. I hope you get the information you need and enough interest to supply the rest of us. Thanks for offering to run the group buy.

Put me down for 4 cells depending on final price and availability of funds at that time.


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## spencer (Jun 14, 2010)

AGM Batteries is the manufacturer


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## marcinebike (Jun 14, 2010)

Oh fantastic!

Thanks for the info. Judging by the enthusiasm early on, I'll take the risk and order 100. I'm sure if it doesn't get all sold straight away, I'm tipping eventually I'll get my money back for the 50 I don't need.

I'll see if I can call them today.

I'm from Perth Australia, and so long as I can still get them, I'll get the lot delivered to me. So once they're here I'll work out a per cost amount which factors in postage to me etc. Then you guys can send me that amount + postage from me to you + AUD$ 5, which I think is reasonable as I'm likely to be spending a fair bit of time and effort making lots of small packing and posting etc.

Thanks everyone I'll keep you all posted!


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## Raoul_Duke (Jun 15, 2010)

I would be interested in 7...( i did post in this thread years ago, but it never went ahead) but they would have to be D size or only a few mm more or its no good to me.

(Also Does anybody know what the nominal and end voltages of these are? / I want to run a regulator)

I'd be in for 7 or more.

BTW I'm in the UK so if you need a hand let me know. ( I think they are made in the UK)
I can ship stuff, It may help in the long run to have a UK shipper, and I'm actually doing the dangerous goods by air course in a few weeks..:tinfoil:

From what I recall you can ship these cells but only in the light they are to be used in so i will have to get my 6 D mag out as a shipping mule :devil: ( Unless we go with shipping a la slow boat from China.


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## alpg88 (Jun 15, 2010)

something i found

http://www.agmbatteries.com/technology.aspx#design


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## marcinebike (Jun 15, 2010)

progress, sent an enquiry email and got a response from a bloke named Vincent:

Dear Marcin
Thank you for the enquiry.
Please use the following information regarding price and availability.
Both types HC and MMO are the same price. For quantities of 50 to 100 the cells would be £28 each.
Lead time 8 - 12 weeks although we should be able to reduce this. Ex works our factory in the UK.
This does not include any VAT export / import duty.
You can download a data sheet from our site www.abslpower.com
I hope this is sufficient information for you at this time.


--
so i've compared these to some other batteries for my ebike and although the lifepo4's have a better current rating I'm all about weight/size energy density for this project, and these are about triple the price (not including shipping) but nearly double the energy density of my 'second choice' option of lifepo4's. my only concern on the datasheet is the cycle life degrades MUCH faster than with the LiFePO4's.
--
However when the capacity drops all the way to 50% (over 1000cycles), the energy density these can store will be the same as the LiFePO4's i was considering. So that's pretty impressive in my books, as I wont be using the ebike on a daily basis, (maybe moreso a weekly basis), hence I'm guessing that natural ageing will impact them more than actual cycling.. lol
--
Another positive about using these over the LiFePO4's is the shape. They are very similar size to a "D" cell, with the blob on one end so that they can be stacked. -- good for you guys but also great for me as the main part of my project is to conceal the batteries in the frame of the bike (a fairly thick frame though), hence the ability to remove the batteries and charge them (with balancing), is preferrable for me than permanent batteries with a terminal at each point so as to be able to balance them. plus just generally replacing batteries / battery maintenance etc will be quicker and easier.
--
either way I've checked and double checked everything with my finances and will be making payment to the company on Monday 12th July.


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## marcinebike (Jun 15, 2010)

oh I nearly forgot:

Although I see the irony in having batteries sent from a factory in the uk, to australia, just to be sent back to the uk; I'd still rather do it that way.

Previous attempts at getting these batteries started to get really complex etc, and I'd like to keep it rather simple where they all get delivered to me then I'll distribute the one's I don't need.

Also, with previous group buy attempts everyone had to prepay and someone had to be selected to organise it all etc, and I suppose people were willing to throw a few hundred at something with the trust that it's gonna be ok, etc.

As this is gonna cost me a few grand, I don't want to be in the position where something is lost, etc. with me losing out on some bigger money.

By having them all delivered to me first I'm avoiding being in a position where I can blame anyone for anything, and I'd feel much more comfortable with it that way. I hope I'm not offending anyone by this, and I greatly appreciate the offers of help from the uk, and at the same time graciously decline them.

ps. Oh by the way, I've read in a datasheet that they do have to be labeled 'class 9 hazardous' for transport, but can be transported via sea with nothing special other than a label stating that it's hazardous.

Also, as they will come in one massive pack to me, the shipping should be pretty small compared to the purchase price anyway, but if you guys in the uk wanna save on postage me to you, once they're here if you guys wanna organise someone in the uk to receive a bunch of them at one adress (if you live nearby etc), I don't mind so that way you guys can save on postage etc.

anyhow, getting closer to the 12th july I will be contacting them to get order form etc, and will keep you guys posted about the progress... seems like a bit of 'hurry up and wait' thing, as after the order is made it's a lead time of 8-12weeks.

so now we play the waiting game....


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## HarryN (Jun 15, 2010)

Hi, given the investment you are proposing to make, it might be a good idea to post the specifications and safety features of the cells you are planning to work with.

It would be really sad to see you get stuck with a large investment into unprotected D size Li cells. There are several "layers" of protection needed to safely use Li Ion cells, and a mfg's tend to be rather liberal with the term "protected". 

Consider to take a look at AW's sales thread and read through the information about the various protections in them. A "D" size Li cell needs to be respected - a lot.

edit - are these the models with the "K2" protection circuit? Is this the cell ? http://www.abslpower.com/pdfs/v3ICR36550HC.pdf or is it the mixed oxide INR type?

edit 2 - dumb question. How do you charge up a 20S2P pack? I didn't realize such a charger even existed.


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## plasmaman (Jun 16, 2010)

marcinebike said:


> progress, sent an enquiry email and got a response from a bloke named Vincent:
> 
> Another positive about using these over the LiFePO4's is the shape. They are very similar size to a "D" cell, with the blob on one end so that they can be stacked. -- good for you guys but also great for me as the main part of my project is to conceal the batteries in the frame of the bike (a fairly thick frame though), hence the ability to remove the batteries and charge them (with balancing), is preferrable for me than permanent batteries with a terminal at each point so as to be able to balance them. plus just generally replacing batteries / battery maintenance etc will be quicker and easier.
> --
> either way I've checked and double checked everything with my finances and will be making payment to the company on Monday 12th July.



Great to see someone picking up on these - good luck with the GB project!
I have been very happy with the 7.5ah D cells I purchased from AGM, but just to say that my cells are flat top and need a contact blob added if used in series.
john


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## Raoul_Duke (Jun 16, 2010)

plasmaman said:


> Great to see someone picking up on these - good luck with the GB project!
> I have been very happy with the 7.5ah D cells I purchased from AGM, but just to say that my cells are flat top and need a contact blob added if used in series.
> john



If I run 7 cells series, what voltage can I set a regulator at..? And can I only pull 10A..?( I'd like 12A-12.5A )  ( Oh, and are they D size exactly or a touch longer?


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## ^^Nova^^ (Jun 16, 2010)

I am keen on a couple.

Cheers,
Nova


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## spencer (Jun 16, 2010)

Datasheet for all you people who wanna know about length. They have a length of 60.m 33 +/- 0.2mm. They are also rated for a 10A max continuous discharge. 

This is the datasheet for the batteries mentioned earlier in the thread. I think these are the ones marcinebike is trying to get..

Actually I'm not even sure what cells specifically marcinebike is trying to get. If you could tell us that would be great.


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## spencer (Jun 16, 2010)

Now I'm really curious. What cells are you looking at getting? The MMO or HC? 

For the information of others, the HC is 3.7V nominal 6.0Ah and the MMO is 3.55V nominal 7.2Ah. Both are rated for 10A discharge. The HC has a slightly less energy density but preforms better in the cold.


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## plasmaman (Jul 15, 2010)

marcinebike said:


> progress, sent an enquiry email and got a response from a bloke named Vincent:
> 
> either way I've checked and double checked everything with my finances and will be making payment to the company on Monday 12th July.



any news?


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## plasmaman (Sep 6, 2010)

is this a dead end?


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## bobstay (Sep 6, 2010)

I too anxiously await news of these cells.


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## mash.m (Sep 9, 2010)

i am also in for 2-4 cell. shipping to germany :thumbsup:


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## lctorana (Sep 9, 2010)

Erm, this "feeler" has been running for more than 3 *years*.

I've got a "feeling" - this is going nowhere.


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## mash.m (Sep 9, 2010)

lctorana said:


> Erm, this "feeler" has been running for more than 3 *years*.
> 
> I've got a "feeling" - this is going nowhere.


 
i think you are right.

markus


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## fivemega (Sep 9, 2010)

marcinebike said:


> For quantities of 50 to 100 the cells would be £28 each.





DocD said:


> Hi,still looking for a USA handler for this and any info on USA import duty/taxes on a value around $1750.00
> thanks to all that have posted info cheers DocD





lctorana said:


> Erm, this "feeler" has been running for more than 3 *years*.
> 
> I've got a "feeling" - this is going nowhere.



*That's a lot of money to put in risk for investment.
Also $50 each (shipping included) for individuals is questionable.
Some people will buy but many of interested people will change their mind for this price.
$200 worth of batteries in 4D M*g?
If any cell goes bad?*


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