# CAUTION !! Misleading budget battery and lumen claims



## 51coronet

Budget 18650 batteries are usualy in the neighborhood of 2000mah give or take. Some are also reused rewrapped laptop batteries sold as new. This applies to ultrafire and trustfire branded batteries as well as some others. The 2 brands mentioned are the most likely to have false claims.

Currently there is no commercialy available 18650 that is over 3100mah. The true 3100mah 18650 cells are pricey compared to their counterparts with false claims. (3100mah last time I checked)

Cree is an LED manufacturer. Their LED's are installed in the most common budget flashlights you will see. Cree has datasheets available online for you to look at the real specs of the LED.

The majority of current budget lights are installed with a cree XML-t6. This LED is rated at 1000 lumens when properly driven. When you see a flashlight seller that advertises more than 1000 lumens with a single XML-t6 you are being lied to. Also note this amount of light will not make it out the front lens of the flashlight. Consider heat, driver, budget battery, poorly designed host for heatsinking, budget lens.

I hope this will help some people make an educated purchase on their next budget light. I like the budget lights but also believe you usualy get what you pay... not always.


----------



## ragweed

*Re: Caution budget battery and lumen claims : Tidbit*

Thanks for taking the time to post this info..! Its very helpful when considering a new light.


----------



## mcnair55

*Re: Caution budget battery and lumen claims : Tidbit*

A budget light is what it is,made to sell at a price.Most lights are bought by users who have no wish to know who Cree or An Other is.As long as light comes out of the other end jobs done.

But your words on here are important for people like us as we do want to know about Cree etc.

Well done.


----------



## hellraiser

Thats some cold hard truths but thanks from us newbs.

Personally I'm still trying to sort out all the facts from fictions...

I see things this way-

Factory or dealers site < cpf member review


----------



## Mike_TX

*Re: Caution budget battery and lumen claims : Tidbit*

Well ... I see it this way:

Most "premium" flashlight makers are charging a premium price for their products, and those products are often over-engineered (and consequently over-priced) for the kind of casual use most of us subject them to. In fact, most high-end flashlights on the market today are engineered for use as "tactical" lights for military, law enforcement and emergency services personnel. Like with a Mercedes car, most of us don't really *need *the degree of strength and quality that's baked into those lights, but some people like the cachet associated with them and are willing to pay the price to "drive" the best.

In fact, most budget lights use Cree emitters, as stated, so the main desirable component is there. If the body of the light won't quite stand up to Taliban gunfire, the threads aren't ISO 9000 quality, the soldering is a little gobby, and the anodizing won't pass SOCOM standards, it really matters very little to most of us. What matters is that the price is low enough to allow us to have 3 or 5 of them for the price of one of the premiums.

Now, the batteries are an area where we have to be educated and a bit careful, since misuse or defective products can cause problems. But as long as we deal with reputable sellers and manufacturers we should be safe. And I don't label Ultrafire and Trustfire batteries as automatically suspect.

So I view budget lights more as "mainstream lights" than as inferior lights. But I don't drive a Mercedes, either. 

.
.


----------



## 51coronet

*Re: Caution budget battery and lumen claims : Tidbit*

The statement I made is based on years of U.S. customers being misled, lied to, and taken advantage of by sellers that wish to make a profit based on ignorance of what the truth is. The truth stands till they all clean up their acts. One label does not erase all the lying, cheating, misleading that has taken place. I put this out there as a word of caution to inform buyers. A claim of 3000mah which when the actual cell is closer to 2600 is still a big difference and misleading regardless. A + or - of 100 mah is more acceptable than 400 especialy when the seller does not disclose the truth. A seller can advertise the cell will be within a specific mah range however these sellers BLOAT their lumens and mah ratings through the roof and they know it. There is no defense for it. Sellers are dishonest and choose to be in hopes to sell their products. _I put the truth out there as a word of caution.

Sellers claiming 1600 lumens from a single xml-t6 = Does not exist. Sellers claiming 4000mah from a single 18650 = does not exist commercialy. In your statement of defense for sellers 3000mah vs 2600mah, is this an accptible range of error to consumers? I think not, so why allow them let alone defend them to advertise such flase claims?_


----------



## Mike_TX

*Re: Caution budget battery and lumen claims : Tidbit*



51coronet said:


> The statement I made is based on years of U.S. customers being misled, lied to, and taken advantage of by sellers that wish to make a profit based on ignorance of what the truth is. The truth stands till they all clean up their acts. One label does not erase all the lying, cheating, misleading that has taken place. I put this out there as a word of caution to inform buyers. A claim of 3000mah which when the actual cell is closer to 2600 is still a big difference and misleading regardless. A + or - of 100 mah is more acceptable than 400 especialy when the seller does not disclose the truth. A seller can advertise the cell will be within a specific mah range however these sellers BLOAT their lumens and mah ratings through the roof and they know it. There is no defense for it. Sellers are dishonest and choose to be in hopes to sell their products. _I put the truth out there as a word of caution.
> 
> Sellers claiming 1600 lumens from a single xml-t6 = Does not exist. Sellers claiming 4000mah from a single 18650 = does not exist commercialy. In your statement of defense for sellers 3000mah vs 2600mah, is this an accptible range of error to consumers? I think not, so why allow them let alone defend them to advertise such flase claims?_



I'm not defending dishonest claims, but I somehow doubt the average buyer can discern between 3000 and 2600 mAh of battery capacity. What they do know is that they get a battery that powers their lights for a given amount of time for a LOT less than comparable "name brand" batteries. You might look at it like the difference between alkaline and Nicad batteries - they're both the same size, but one works better than the other one. Similarly, pricey name brand batteries may work better than Chinese batteries, but if the lesser-priced product gets the job done, who's quibbling over capacity ratings? You get what you pay for.

Lumens ratings are the same. As soon as you accept that they're exaggerated, you realize you can use them as a relative guide to output ... i.e., a claimed 1000 lumen light is likely to be a good bit brighter than a claimed 300 lumen light. And frankly, most people just know that a light is bright or dim, so it's not a life-or-death deal. 

All this stuff is a "buyer beware" issue. It's like buying at a market in Mexico - you might not always get exactly what you think you're getting. People need to educate themselves and be informed buyers.

.
.


----------



## HIDC

*Re: Caution budget battery and lumen claims : Tidbit*



Mike_TX said:


> I'm not defending dishonest claims, but I somehow doubt the average buyer can discern between 3000 and 2600 mAh of battery capacity. What they do know is that they get a battery that powers their lights for a given amount of time for a LOT less than comparable "name brand" batteries. You might look at it like the difference between alkaline and Nicad batteries - they're both the same size, but one works better than the other one. Similarly, pricey name brand batteries may work better than Chinese batteries, but if the lesser-priced product gets the job done, who's quibbling over capacity ratings? You get what you pay for.
> 
> Lumens ratings are the same. As soon as you accept that they're exaggerated, you realize you can use them as a relative guide to output ... i.e., a claimed 1000 lumen light is likely to be a good bit brighter than a claimed 300 lumen light. And frankly, most people just know that a light is bright or dim, so it's not a life-or-death deal.
> 
> All this stuff is a "buyer beware" issue. It's like buying at a market in Mexico - you might not always get exactly what you think you're getting. People need to educate themselves and be informed buyers.
> 
> .
> .



There actually might be a 3100 mAH out there. In my informal tests with CBA III 1.5a down to 2.8v (more than 10 of each battery, except TrustFire R&B I only have two).

TrustFire R&B 3000 = 2000 mAH
TrustFire gray 2500 = 1900 mAH
AW 2900 = 2700 mAH
AW 3100 = 2900 mAH

If we test the AW 3100 at 0.1c to 2.75v we might actually see near 3100 mAH. Thoughts?


----------



## Sno4Life

*Re: Caution budget battery and lumen claims : Tidbit*



HIDC said:


> If we test the AW 3100 at 0.1c to 2.75v we might actually see near 3100 mAH. Thoughts?



This is a really important point. Capacity is dependent on discharge rate. I actually think that the poor quality control is a bigger problem for consumers. A light that is DOA simply because of poor connections is a problem that is seen all too often.


----------



## jh333233

*Re: Caution budget battery and lumen claims : Tidbit*



HIDC said:


> There actually might be a 3100 mAH out there. In my informal tests with CBA III 1.5a down to 2.8v (more than 10 of each battery, except TrustFire R&B I only have two).
> 
> TrustFire R&B 3000 = 2000 mAH
> TrustFire gray 2500 = 1900 mAH
> AW 2900 = 2700 mAH
> AW 3100 = 2900 mAH
> 
> If we test the AW 3100 at 0.1c to 2.75v we might actually see near 3100 mAH. *Thoughts*?


Power/Discharge rate depends on concentration of unreacted chemical inside cell(this is an analog, Li-ion is slightly different)
When the cell is being discharged, concentration of these thing decrease so max available current decrease
Thats why when discharge rate increase, capacity decrease
If you discharge it at really really low rate, let say 0.0000000000000000000000000000000001C
Then concentration would not be a limiting factor anymore and you get your true capacity reading
Crossover with chemistry and physics
mAH = It can deliver rated capacity for one hour
Larger capacity = more juice inside
Like Li -> e + Li+ Each time the equation runs, one electron is given out
Using maths we can calculate capacity by measuring how much stuff theyve added to the battery
The capacity may be a calculated one instead of tested one(Of course these cells may be surplus and the capacity was bluffed)


----------



## TORCH_BOY

*Re: Caution budget battery and lumen claims : Tidbit*

I will keep my eyes open when I go to buy anything on ebay.

Thanks


----------



## yellow

51coronet said:


> Cree is an LED manufacturer. Their LED's are installed in the most common budget flashlights you will see.


AS WELL AS installed in most ANY light - because *CREE simply offers the best led(s)*
(since they overtook their competitor Luxeon's makes in ~2004, when they entered the "Cree revolution" with their _XR-E_ model)
((later _XP-G_, followed by _XM-L_))


... just because some posts here could mislead to the finding, that "a Cree led" is an indicator for a "bad" budget light


----------



## QuePsi83

Just my .02... We've been brought up to be consumers. I read somewhere that the word 'consumer' was created to describe the gullible... those who believe... unquestioning!!! Here's some humor about this problem http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_ut93YYZu8 And the iNet is bloating with growing mis-information.

Ok! Here is my suggestion to eliminate budget battery woes...



 surf over to eBay and buy Laptop Battery 'pulls'. Four (4) days ago, I picked up an IBM Thinkpad T20; T21; _whatever_ for a BEST OFFER of $4 with $4.95 S/H for a total of $8.95. Yesterday, I received the battery pack that contained 6 X CGR18650HGL PANASONIC (GREEN) Li-ion cells rated at 1800mAh. 
The day before yesterday, I asked the woman in the IT dept (_where I work security_) if she was throwing out any laptop batteries. "Hello!!!!!" She remembered seeing a pack in the recycle bin. "Viola!!!" I harvested 6 X ICR18650-22F SAMSUNG (PURPLE) Li-ion cells rated at 2200mAh from that Dell Inspr...whatever. The mAh numbers above came from the manufacturer product spec sheet - verified. And, Samsung and Panasonic are a couple of the heavy hitters out there. 
The usual culprit in a battery pack is *the one cell* that took a vacation... leaving the rest high and dry. 

In my example above, there was one dead PANASONIC cell in the green lot and in the SAMSUNG lot, all cells are working just fine. So, with this "Hit" or "Miss" ratio, why would anyone tie themselves up in a 'tizzy' or care about mAh claims and budget battery woes? With four (soon to be five) torches in the stable, I could run a fresh cell for a month and swap it out for another cell... while repeating this cycle for the next two years off of a base of 11 cells I 'harvested' from laptop 'pulls' and the four (4) alleged 3000mAh ones I bought off eBay to get started.

I've deliberately forgotten the Politician's name who said - and I paraphrase - the equipment our soldiers use (_a co-relation to the value of a soldier_) is based on the lowest Contractor BID. Anyone care to dig up the statistics on the V22 Osprey - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_Boeing_V-22_Osprey? How many lives has this abomination claimed since it was put into service... the latest tragedy being a few months ago - April 2012... It's *STILL* in service. Go figure...

I called my local County recycling facility and asked about the stock of laptops and laptop batteries they had in-house. The response was "*We have quite a bit of laptop batteries in here.*" So, when I pretended to be an elderly retired Engineer building an RC kit for my grandson... and needing some of the 'turned-in' batteries packs to harvest the Li-ion cells, the woman said "*Sorry Sir. I can't let you have any of these battery packs.*" So, I asked her why! Was it a *Li-ion Federal EPA* restriction? Her response was, "*No Sir. It's part of the County's revenue stream, Sir.*"


I think I'm becoming a Lumen junkie!!!


----------



## fiberguy

QuePsi83 said:


> Just my .02... We've been brought up to be consumers. I read somewhere that the word 'consumer' was created to describe the gullible... those who believe... unquestioning!!! Here's some humor about this problem http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_ut93YYZu8 And the iNet is bloating with growing mis-information.
> 
> Ok! Here is my suggestion to eliminate budget battery woes...
> 
> 
> 
> surf over to eBay and buy Laptop Battery 'pulls'. Four (4) days ago, I picked up an IBM Thinkpad T20; T21; _whatever_ for a BEST OFFER of $4 with $4.95 S/H for a total of $8.95. Yesterday, I received the battery pack that contained 6 X CGR18650HGL PANASONIC (GREEN) Li-ion cells rated at 1800mAh.
> The day before yesterday, I asked the woman in the IT dept (_where I work security_) if she was throwing out any laptop batteries. "Hello!!!!!" She remembered seeing a pack in the recycle bin. "Viola!!!" I harvested 6 X ICR18650-22F SAMSUNG (PURPLE) Li-ion cells rated at 2200mAh from that Dell Inspr...whatever. The mAh numbers above came from the manufacturer product spec sheet - verified. And, Samsung and Panasonic are a couple of the heavy hitters out there.
> The usual culprit in a battery pack is *the one cell* that took a vacation... leaving the rest high and dry.
> 
> In my example above, there was one dead PANASONIC cell in the green lot and in the SAMSUNG lot, all cells are working just fine. So, with this "Hit" or "Miss" ratio, why would anyone tie themselves up in a 'tizzy' or care about mAh claims and budget battery woes? With four (soon to be five) torches in the stable, I could run a fresh cell for a month and swap it out for another cell... while repeating this cycle for the next two years off of a base of 11 cells I 'harvested' from laptop 'pulls' and the four (4) alleged 3000mAh ones I bought off eBay to get started.
> 
> I've deliberately forgotten the Politician's name who said - and I paraphrase - the equipment our soldiers use (_a co-relation to the value of a soldier_) is based on the lowest Contractor BID. Anyone care to dig up the statistics on the V22 Osprey - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_Boeing_V-22_Osprey? How many lives has this abomination claimed since it was put into service... the latest tragedy being a few months ago - April 2012... It's *STILL* in service. Go figure...
> 
> I called my local County recycling facility and asked about the stock of laptops and laptop batteries they had in-house. The response was "*We have quite a bit of laptop batteries in here.*" So, when I pretended to be an elderly retired Engineer building an RC kit for my grandson... and needing some of the 'turned-in' batteries packs to harvest the Li-ion cells, the woman said "*Sorry Sir. I can't let you have any of these battery packs.*" So, I asked her why! Was it a *Li-ion Federal EPA* restriction? Her response was, "*No Sir. It's part of the County's revenue stream, Sir.*"
> 
> 
> I think I'm becoming a Lumen junkie!!!




Awesome suggestions. I don't use 18650's, but upon reading your post I walked 3 steps to my trash can, pulled out an old laptop battery, chopped away a bit to reveal some info, hit the google machine and found I had...drumroll...

6 LG 2600 mAh 18650's. They're obviously junk to me, I don't use 'em. It's still interesting to see!

If anyone want's 'em you can PM me. I'll send the to anyone who will PP me the cost of shipping. The battery would no longer hold a charge so AT LEAST one is bad. I slightly damaged the wrapper on one trying to extract them. Crazy.


----------



## betweenrides

Like most newbies, when I got into this hobby and specifically into Li-Ion torches, I looked for and bought the highest capacity cheapest batteries I could find. Turned out at the time it was UF3000 mAh cells. I now know through reading and experience that these are total crap. I have 6 of them, bought 2 at a time, and they don't even match each other in looks when you examine them closely. Quickly learned that they can stick a shiny new wrapper on anything. Lipstick on a Pig comes to mind here.

I have since taken to only purchasing cells that have been thoroughly reviewed (HKJ, Benckie and some others) and stick to reputable sources that have been verified by other forum members. That being said, if you get them from the right source, some of the TF cells are quite good. Not my first choice, but good nonetheless.


----------



## langham

The DX 18650 SKU: 26248 is pretty impressive, I own 2 and have ordered 4 for other people and they match up in capacity to my AW 18650 (rated at 2600mA). Together they can easily put out 20W to a halogen bulb. I have never actually taken a laptop battery apart, but i have 2 sitting around and I will try it later. The AW 18650 was $15 by itself and it was well worth it, but I can not tell the difference between it and one of these and therefore can not justify spending any more on another AW. Have any of you revived a Li battery by wiring it up in parrallel and jumping it off? I have done it twice when the battery has dropped bellow the point at which it can be charged by a charger, and it seems to work very well.


----------



## langham

I took apart the two laptop batteries I have and got 8*Samsung18650-22f, and 6*LG 18650 2200. It turns out that the one large cpu battery that went out had 12 total 18650 cells and since it was 3 clusters of 4 in parallel I wound up losing 4 cells to one bad one. Thank you for this information I was needing a couple extra cells, although I have already ordered 2 more.


----------



## swamp7cat

langham said:


> Have any of you revived a Li battery by wiring it up in parrallel and jumping it off? I have done it twice when the battery has dropped bellow the point at which it can be charged by a charger, and it seems to work very well.



How exactly do you do this? I have several old laptop batteries and I'm considering scrounging them for cells, but they won't take a charge, so I suspect one or more cells are bad.

Swamp7cat


----------



## langham

I had one that had 3 sets of 4 in parallel and another with 3 sets of 2 in parallel. They are soldered to a small piece of sheet aluminum and wired up. Typically the dead cell will also kill the one next to it. If you get them quick enough then you can wire a freshly charged 18650 in parallel with the dead one that isn't broken and it will get it to a V which is high enough to charge it. Sometimes this works other times, not so much, but worth a try. Most chargers will not charge bellow around 2V so you need to get it above this, about 30 sec. in parallel should do just fine. If the cell is bad it will simply slowly lose charge over time as seen by multi meter. I took the case apart with a dremel being careful to not go much past the outside cover. You can tell where the batteries are, and the other side is the circuitry. You may want to order some protection circuits though as you will remove all battery protection when you remove the cells. Good luck! You can pm me with any difficulty or further questions.


----------



## swamp7cat

Cool, I'll dig those battery packs out and see about opening them up. Hopefully the cells will be serviceable!

Swamp7cat


----------



## timokimm

amazing helpful info, either way!
now to dig up my own, old laptop battries...


----------



## Redhans

I would consider updating Post #1 of this thread because Panasonic now makes a 3400mAh battery and more than one good company has sold them with protection. Orbtronic sold them protected on their website (now sold out), I think I remember seeing ones protected by Keeppower in pictures.

I also found some German Enerpower+ 3400mAh protected panasonics available NOW as of this post in the ebay store harvestmoonglory for like a bajillion dollars. 

Redhans


----------



## navarrma

Is there any demonstrable test that can be used to test the capacity of our new batteries to know whether or not they are reused or just falsely advertised junk?


----------



## ElectronGuru

Without industry standards or government oversight, someone would need to spot check every brand (which hkj is approaching). In the mean time, the the reliable option is not taking the risk (buying from a reliable brand).


----------



## The_Driver

Redhans said:


> I also found some German Enerpower+ 3400mAh protected panasonics available NOW as of this post in the ebay store harvestmoonglory for like a bajillion dollars.



Hello??? GERMAN batteries, German made things always cost a bazillion dollars


----------



## space-cowboy

NCR18650B is made in Japan
PVC sleeve made in China
PCB ?? - Made in Germany?
Top button?


All those cells are assembled in China, and nothing wrong with it.

Iphone is assembled in China - correct?


----------



## The_Driver

space-cowboy said:


> NCR18650B is made in Japan
> 
> PVC sleeve made in China
> PCB ?? - Made in Germany?
> Top button?
> 
> 
> All those cells are assembled in China, and nothing wrong with it.
> 
> Iphone is assembled in China - correct?



It was meant more as a joke than anything else :thumbsup:

The Enerpower batteries are assembled in Germany. I don't think any of the components are actually made here.
Since they are assembled in Germany and are rather expensive one could assume that the quality of the workmanship especially considering the isolation of the return wire on the outside of the battery should be very good, but only taking apart a cell from them will actually prove this.

Another thing to note: the pcb in the Enerpower 3400mAh batteries allows up to 7A (~2C) discharge, which is basically perfect.


----------



## langham

What kind of lights are you guys using that require such ridiculous power sources? I have always liked the fact that size also adds a little bit of wow factor in the brighter lights. I have conceived making a 100W halogen powered light, but it uses 12 18650 cells and at that power approximately 2.3A discharge from any single battery at a time even dead. That would give me at least an hour even on some crappy 2200mAh cells. The only thing I can conceive using those expensive cells on would be a very nice high powered laptop, and even then it would be a little pricey for my tastes. Good luck with making something that discharges those kinds of amps I have seen some pretty crazy stuff happen when you get too much power out of too small of a package though. One guy exploded his balcony.


----------



## Epsilon

5A of a single cell is very usefull in overdriven xml applications. 7a cutoff is then more than enough, there are cells with 10A cutoffs, which is just not needed. the voltage has dropped to 3v by then.


----------



## langham

The curve for light output vs. current is useless above 3A and just reduces the life of the led dramatically. Why would you do that? The heat dissipation alone would be obscene and call for a light that was at least big enough to house 2*18650. Now an SST-90 could be understandable, but even then the size of the head of a light that uses an SST-90 or multiple XML emitters would be large and bulky and in no way would you save anything by running the light on a single 18650. Beside all of that the smallest 5A driver I have ever seen is very large, much too large to use in any single 18650 host I have seen. If you are talking about running a 4*XML with just 2 18650 cells I would say that is still unwise because in a light that is that bright you don't need to be able to carry it around as your EDC. All in all, just get a multiple cell host and stop trying to spend way too much money on batteries they do wear out after a while no matter how expensive they are.


----------



## Epsilon

@langham I disagree on a few points and will point out why


langham said:


> The curve for light output vs. current is useless above 3A and just reduces the life of the led dramatically. Why would you do that?


This is just not true. With a good LED board you can go way past 3A. 
Source: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...racteristics&p=4018726&highlight=#post4018726





The extra 500lumen that a 6A drive deliveres, can be very useful. That you will not find it useful to do, is just your call.



langham said:


> The heat dissipation alone would be obscene and call for a light that was at least big enough to house 2*18650.


For momentary use, almost any host is big enough. Even a 1*18650 P60 is big enough. A good host and thermal management will help a lot. I made a light that runs an XM-L @ 3.85A and can do this for extended times.
Topic with temperature measurements



langham said:


> Now an SST-90 could be understandable, but even then the size of the head of a light that uses an SST-90 or multiple XML emitters would be large and bulky and in no way would you save anything by running the light on a single 18650.


Multi XM-L and SST-90 with the dome is just not comparable with a single XM-L in terms of throw in the same host. The SST-90 is by the way a very difficult LED to direct drive of a single cell because of the relative high Vf. Very little cells go past 5A.



langham said:


> Beside all of that the smallest 5A driver I have ever seen is very large, much too large to use in any single 18650 host I have seen.


True, but single cell operation are mostly limited to X*7135 drivers stacked. Those are small enough.



langham said:


> If you are talking about running a 4*XML with just 2 18650 cells I would say that is still unwise because in a light that is that bright you don't need to be able to carry it around as your EDC.


Too bright? Every application needs a certain amount of light. When my eyes are full adjustment to darkness, the 4 lumen of the low setting of my quark 123 is even too bright. But that just doesn't cut it outside.

There is no "Too bright", only too bright for a certain application. It is imho always desireable to have immense power in EDC size.



langham said:


> All in all, just get a multiple cell host and stop trying to spend way too much money on batteries they do wear out after a while no matter how expensive they are.


This is for everyone to deside. I like high quality and want to pay for it on some occasions.


----------



## langham

You can not seriously think that this data is relative to this discussion of useful data in a real world application. I have 2 XML-T6 leds mounted on 16mm copper heat sinks and they are better than the aluminum heat sinks by a factor of almost 20% at removing the heat from the led. This point I agree on, but the simple fact is that in a single 18650 host the ultimate heat removal process is radiation heat transfer from the body of the light to the atmospheric environment. This test used a large cooler that was regulated at 20C throughout the testing which made the test invalid for any normal flashlight due to the fact that the heat sink used convection types of heat transfer to remove heat from the heat sink. This is completely irrelevant, to the discussion of single 18650 host. My light with a copper heat sink and driven at 3A gets warm to the touch after less than a minute of operation and hot to the touch after only a couple of minutes due to the simple fact of radiation heat transfer from the body to the environment is several times less efficient than the conduction heat transfer from the heat sink to the body. The best heat transfer would actually be obtained by a high carbon content diamond copper board and that would cause the external temperature of the light to go up within seconds to a temperature that was high enough above ambient temperature to make the difference in temperature enough to make up for the difference in efficiency. Another issue would be that the more surface area for heat transfer the light has the more it would be able to make up for the difference in efficiencies. The only thing that having a better material for the heat sink will do is allow you to store more energy per gram of material used prior to the heat being removed by the only real heat sink which is the ambient environment. As far as short term goes, yeah sure you can make a really bright camera flash if you want to but if you mess around and accidentally leave it on or let the wrong person use it you are going to have an expensive paper weight. There are numbers about the different materials used vs the amount of energy they can store, it is irrelevant as well though unless you can ultimately remove the heat externally, which can only be done by either choosing a cold ambient temperature, raising the surface area of the body of the light, making the body out of copper (or some other material that has better thermal properties than aluminum) or by adding some sort of additional flow between the body of the light ( the heat source) and the ambient environment (the heat sink). I guess you could also change the ambient environment to a different material ie: water or some sort of solid, but that would make the light a dive light. The amount of heat dissipation for a given body is set, you can not adjust it short of changing the body in some mechanical form like adding heat dissipation fins and as the amount of watts of heat vs light dramatically goes up after 3A of input current as seen on the provided efficiency chart I do not know how you would account for this factor. Their is 62% more heat being generated based on these charts at 6.5A input vs 3A and that would be an excessive amount considering the thermal capabilities of a single 18650 host.


----------



## Epsilon

The graph of the XM-L is just an example of an application, showing that there are XM-L's which can be driven at above 5A. There will always be a loss in efficiency but that can be acceptable. I could have picked a CBT-90 @ 13.5A, but that is not a realistic application.

You are absolutely correct for long term use. But please, look at my topic with temperature measurements before talking about the dissipation of heat. In short term use, there is no need to dissipate the heat of the LED to the environment, that is the point. There is enough mass in the body to suck up the heat for at least 5 minutes in my example. Which means there is more than enough room to up the power even to 6.5A for short bursts. I decided not to, but it certainly is possible.

Getting rid of the heat in long runs will always be problem in small hosts. The best transfer you can get, is by holding the light in your hand. But also this is limited, I tried to do this with a 9A powered SST-90 in a Mag-D and couldn't stop it to get to hot to hold. But again, this is only for long term use.


----------



## Poppy

navarrma said:


> Is there any demonstrable test that can be used to test the capacity of our new batteries to know whether or not they are reused or just falsely advertised junk?



bump... 
I'd like to know too.

I'd like to buy some 18650s and would like to find some good buys, but if I get one and don't know how to test its capacity, I wouldn't know if it was a good buy, or that I paid less to get less.


----------



## langham

It is relatively simple you can just get on the internet and get the power density for the material used and then weigh the battery, subtract a few grams for the case and protection. That and there are actual battery capacity meters, best bet is to get someone with experience to tell you. The DX SKU: 26248 are very good and relatively accurate in the claimed capacity. I have bought 10 or so and they have all been good. The batteries I currently like the most are the Panasonic NCR18650B or the NCR18650A because of the large capacity and low price.


----------



## Travissand

I have searched but I have not found any one that tested the 18650 TrustFire 4000mAh found on eBay. 
I assume the mAh is much less then claimed and will not match eachother in specs therfore would not be suitable for a series device. But I still would love to see all the charts done up on them. Or does curiosity always kill the cat.


----------



## langham

Series would be fine parallel is the time in DC that you would have to worry about the V matching. That link goes to a pair of Panasonic 18650s and they are an extremely good battery.


----------



## VidPro

*Re: CAUTION !! When a battery label becomes meaningless*

Not sure if this has been posted yet, but i thought it could find a nice home here in Misleading.

A location called taobao, is one location selling your favorite brand battery Wrappers/Label (only) to be able to stuff any cell in about any label 
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z10.3.0.77.saBKb5&id=10193523421&
like here for example you can wrap your batts in a popular panasonic wrapper.
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z10.3.0.63.saBKb5&id=12670817495&

Just at the one location, they have many different wrappers for turning trash into treasure  You can even cap it off with some fake protection.
This just shows how easy has become for some ConArtist to try and rip people off. 
Li-Ion or even ni-mh cells. 
How does that cell test? better question, what even is it.

When a label becomes meaningless , a reliable trustworthy seller/distributer is the only hope left.


----------



## argleargle

*Re: CAUTION !! When a battery label becomes meaningless*

Vidpro: there are so many scam alerts in the reviews for cells being sold on Amazon right now that it isn't freaking funny.

Langham: I like it when you post a big fat chunk of text. The bigger the better, the way you write. You sound like you've got a great grasp on heat transfer and dissapation.

...and seriously: if a 4x increase in lumens only means a doubling in perceived brightness, what's with all the splitting hairs concerning an extra 4%-15% in brightness from overdriving the crap out of your electrical system? Just curious. Please discuss and debate.

disclaimer: I've got a few overdriven lights myself.


----------



## langham

*Re: CAUTION !! When a battery label becomes meaningless*

I know it seems like splitting hairs, but indeed a 12% increase is all you get with the new XM-L2 and that was enough to release an entire new series of light for some manufacturers. The big deal seems like to me it is just in the fact that people want to be able to say that they have the newest and brightest light regardless of its useful functions. I have never over-driven a light, but I do have a plan to build a handheld light that is smaller than the SR-90 and has a force-cooled Cree model emitter and I would simply calculate my turbo mode based on the maximum amount that I could cool the led to maintain temperature less than 100C. I think that people always want to get the best out of what is available at the current time. I have a modified TN-31 that I got during the Christmas deal, and I wouldn't have gotten one otherwise, that stock did not even compare to a very cheap $30 DX light that I got and modified. First the thermal properties are terrible, they actually mounted the copper heat sink to the anodized finish. This is completely unacceptable as it basically acts as a thermal barrier between the copper of the heat-sink and the body of the light. I do not understand over-driven lights that take things past the point of possible heat dissipation, because when researching all of the thermal properties of the led you will notice that the higher the temperature the less efficient the led becomes and the lower the efficiency the higher the temperature will be. This is going to cause 2 things first the high current will need higher Vf and that will most likely cause you to need a Boost driver or a higher V by placing more batteries in series, and using a buck driver to get to the lower, normal operating modes. This would cause some issues, the higher the supply voltage is greater than Vf for the led the lower the driver efficiency will be and that kind of defeats the purpose of the lower more efficient modes. There are a couple of options, you could design a light that has the sole purpose of being an over-driven single mode light. The other things you could do is to use 2 separate drivers and switch, or you could use PWM and a capacitor that would allow you to compensate for the poor PF that you would have. Most people don't care though, every time I see a new SST-90 light my engineering spirit weeps for our community. The constant reminder that it is capable of almost 3000lm if over-driven is obscene. These are driven at 9.0A and a total of 34W with a current density of 1A/mm2 and at 25C they can get 2750lm. How hard would that be for 34W of led power and 22C/W of resistance between the emitter and the case? Therefore you can say that unless your ambient temperature is 3C you will never be able to achieve these numbers, regardless of your build design. The spread sheet has some stuff that would say that you can if you were able to achieve some seriously amazing thermal efficiency, but I have my doubts, as well as the SR-90 not being anywhere near those numbers. I guess I am just bitter, but the only way I would over-drive an emitter is if I had somehow improved the thermal efficiency of the light to compensate for the extra waist heat that was being formed.

argleargle: I should be pretty good at therm o-dynamics as I got my training from the US Navy while training to be a nuclear operator, and I don't really like to participate in discussions that are just simple one line answers I like to think about the answers I give.


----------



## uk_caver

*Re: CAUTION !! When a battery label becomes meaningless*



langham said:


> I know it seems like splitting hairs, but indeed a 12% increase is all you get with the new XM-L2 and that was enough to release an entire new series of light for some manufacturers. The big deal seems like to me it is just in the fact that people want to be able to say that they have the newest and brightest light regardless of its useful functions.


Indeed - hardly anyone would be able to tell the difference between two lights which had 12% difference in output even in good comparison conditions.
Personally I haven't upgraded my own homebuilt caving lights unless I could get at least 50% more output out of them, even when the only cost was new LEDs and a small amount of time.

But if I'm _selling_ something, being able to up the lumen output by 12% for the same runtime might make it more attractive to some people, especially if it pushes it past some arbitrary numeric threshold, because a lot of people seem to gravitate to raw lumen figures even when comparing two lights with significantly different beamshape options or user interfaces.


----------



## florinache

*Re: CAUTION !! When a battery label becomes meaningless*

I unwrapped two of my Ultrafire 18650's (unused, due to their misleading specs: 4000mah! The site I bought them from two years ago when I wasn't familiar with this type of batteries now has some of these  http://lanterne-profesionale.com/ba...lator-ldl-vda-li-ion-18650-3-7v-6800-mah.html )

So what was inside:
One of them a Panasonic 2200mah cell, probably from a laptop, the soldering marks still visible.
And the other a 1100mah 3.2V cell.
Both were selled as protected.














So what could happen if you try to charge to 4,2V a battery that has a maximum charge voltage of 3,65V? Isn't it a potential bomb?


----------



## B42

*Re: CAUTION !! When a battery label becomes meaningless*



argleargle said:


> Vidpro: there are so many scam alerts in the reviews for cells being sold on Amazon right now that it isn't freaking funny.
> 
> Langham: I like it when you post a big fat chunk of text. The bigger the better, the way you write. You sound like you've got a great grasp on heat transfer and dissapation.
> 
> ...and seriously: if a 4x increase in lumens only means a doubling in perceived brightness, what's with all the splitting hairs concerning an extra 4%-15% in brightness from overdriving the crap out of your electrical system? Just curious. Please discuss and debate.
> 
> disclaimer: I've got a few overdriven lights myself.



I became interested in high powered LED lights and batteries due to having to hike in the dark with my dogs and found out the hard way on these Chinese knockoff brands, glad to see a warning posted at the top here. I bought several 18650 battery sets to power the lights I bought and on the 3x Cree T6 "3800 lumen" Trustfire (692x3= approx 2100 max according to Cree website @2A) got a 32 min runtime on high with "Ultrafire 3000mAh" battery set, 17mins with my "5000 mAh" blue batteries... less than acceptable for my 2hr+ hikes thats for certain, and worse, they started to degrade after recharging. I tried several purchases, and all had similar poor results. So, after doing some research I found the Orbtronic 3400mAh protected cells and bought those: what a world of difference! 1hr 21min for 2 3400 mAh vs 32min "3000 mAh" and 17 min "5000 mAh" garbage. With the above functionality, I can unscientifically but very much more accurately rate the "5000 mAh" China batteries as approx 710 mAh and "Ultrafire 3000 mAh" as approx 1340 mAh BEFORE they degraded further! Its hard to believe the extremely sub par quality and/or recycled crap from China that is now being sold on Amazon. I complained to a seller of the "5000 mAh" and of course only got the "thats what the factory labeled them" excuse, he offered me more free crappy "5000 mAh" (710 mAh) garbage and went right on with the listings. People should be rightly warned on any Chinese battery purchase beforehand!


----------



## chucka

I ordered several 18650, 26oomAh batteries on line. They were shipped from Singapore. They say they are protected but when I removed the plastic jacket, all I saw was a metal can , no return strip. Could these still be a protected type? Thanks







51coronet said:


> Budget 18650 batteries are usualy in the neighborhood of 2000mah give or take. Some are also reused rewrapped laptop batteries sold as new. This applies to ultrafire and trustfire branded batteries as well as some others. The 2 brands mentioned are the most likely to have false claims.
> 
> Currently there is no commercialy available 18650 that is over 3100mah. The true 3100mah 18650 cells are pricey compared to their counterparts with false claims. (3100mah last time I checked)
> 
> Cree is an LED manufacturer. Their LED's are installed in the most common budget flashlights you will see. Cree has datasheets available online for you to look at the real specs of the LED.
> 
> The majority of current budget lights are installed with a cree XML-t6. This LED is rated at 1000 lumens when properly driven. When you see a flashlight seller that advertises more than 1000 lumens with a single XML-t6 you are being lied to. Also note this amount of light will not make it out the front lens of the flashlight. Consider heat, driver, budget battery, poorly designed host for heatsinking, budget lens.
> 
> I hope this will help some people make an educated purchase on their next budget light. I like the budget lights but also believe you usualy get what you pay... not always.


----------



## HKJ

chucka said:


> I ordered several 18650, 26oomAh batteries on line. They were shipped from Singapore. They say they are protected but when I removed the plastic jacket, all I saw was a metal can , no return strip. Could these still be a protected type? Thanks



There exist some 18650 where the protection is placed at the + pole, they will not have a strip.


----------



## xevious

Given all of these glaring problems found with Ultrafire, Trustfire, and WhateverFire batteries that aim for the budget conscious battery buyer, I'm feeling like there should be a prominent warning on the top of this sub forum. Basically state something like this:

"After numerous deliberate tests and consumer reported issues, it is becoming glaringly evident that the cheaper Chinese battery cells being sold under names like "Trustfire, Ultrafire, Spiderfire, etc." are often labeled with deceitful claims. For example, a 3100mAh labeled cell turning out to be 2200mAh or even less. In addition, they have been known to have extremely short lifespans and even protected cells have been known to fail, exploding during a charging cycle. Read on for specific instances of these issues..."

I was seeing an above average number of positive reviews on the Ultrafire 3.7v 18650 3000mAh cells. But if a brand is so outright guilty of putting junk cells wrapped in plastic labeled with specs that basically lie, how can they be trusted for anything? How many people have posted positive reviews only from their first usage? One of the more prevalent negatives is that these budget Chinese cells don't last. If you tally up the cost on replacement and sub par performance, you end up spending more than you would with quality cells from the start.


----------



## PapaLumen

OP might want to alter first post to mention top cells are now panny 3400mah.


----------



## Shadow352008

I've personally harvested quite a few 18650 type batteries from laptop battery packs to use for other purposes, and so far the highest listed capacity that I've found is from a Toshiba pack claiming 14.8 volts at 6450 mah. There are four battery groups in series with 3 batteries in parallel in each group which means that each battery should be 3.7V at 2150 mah. As I said, this is the highest milli-amp hour claim that I've found so far and have never seen a 3000 mah battery listed.


----------



## langham

I have never seen the 3400 mAh batteries in a laptop the largest I have seen is 2200 mAh cells, but I have seen them in 3 series 4 parallel arrangement that made the total capacity a lot higher.


----------



## Shadow352008

Now, I HAVE found that most laptop packs contain 12 cells of the 18650 type but vary widely in the amp hour claims. Some cells are stamped 18650A, some as 18650H, and others as 18650GR, so I suppose that there are a lot of 18650 types with different amp hour capacity. In looking at two packs right now, both have 12 cells, one with 18650A cells claims 6.0 amp hours and the other with 18650GR cells claims 6.45 amp hours. So far, I've found that the GR type has the highest amp hour rating claimed on the outer battery pack case.


----------



## langham

Typically you can look up the individual cell and find out who manufactured them and then get the data sheet for them. I had one that was LG and one that was Samsung, both 2200mAh and the LG was better as individual cells.


----------



## Barrel mount

xevious said:


> One of the more prevalent negatives is that these budget Chinese cells don't last. If you tally up the cost on replacement and sub par performance, you end up spending more than you would with quality cells from the start.



How long do they last ? Do you have data for each brand and their longevity?


----------



## Bruce722

In regards to batteries, I saw the claim "you get what you pay for". Exactly what does this mean? Do we have a published list of "acceptable" prices? For example: On eBay, I saw a pair (2) for Panasonic NCR18650B (3400mAh) for around $20. The same vendor sold a "single" (1) Nitecore NL189 (also 3400mAh) for about $22. You can get a pair (2) of Trustfire "4000mAh" 18650 with charger for $8 on Amazon!! I understand the Trustfires are way out of range, but what about the others?

A would like to see a list of "acceptable" prices for 14500's and RCR123's (including capacity).

Bruce


----------



## langham

You have to use a reputable site to know the price range that they use, then you have to look at the cell that the other site is using and find out if it is what it claims to be. The reason that single 3400mAh cell is the same price as 2 of the effectively exact same cell is that one doesn't have a protection circuit built in. That means that you could kill a $10 cell by over charging/discharging. The Trustfire isn't worth $.10, any battery that clearly overstates the capacity is not worth your time. The way I did it is at first I bought some of the best batteries on the market (ie IMR 18650s) for $15 each. Then I bought some of the cheapest (get on DX and arrange all of the 18650 cells from cheapest to most expensive), and then I bought some that were halfway between. I found that the ones that were about $5 per cell were of the best quality for the price. As far as capacity per dollar goes, that is why this thread exists, because people are frustrated with cheap cells that claim more than they actually put out. The Panasonic NCR18650B should be around 10-11 dollars without protections and 15-20 with protection, I have seen that much range. I use the SKU: 26248 for all of my cheap 18650 flashlights and the Panasonic NCR18650B unprotected for all of my nice lights. I am not an normal user of the other cells. I got my Panasonic cells for 10.50 each, I hope this helps. I would be willing to help further with more specific questions if needed. If you have any complaints about specific cells be sure to post them.


----------



## balticvid

What is the best 18650 for my Nitecore SRT7 ? 
Nitecore has a 3400mAH (189) which is made in China. Not cheap
Orbtronic 3400mAH which is supposed to be a Panasonic made in Japan. Others??

I would like to get a good reliable output and protected battery. Any ideas would be appreciated.

I was also looking at a XTAR VP1 battery charger.
What do you guys think?

I need some help. This stuff gets confusing. Thanks


----------



## langham

They virtually all have the same cell, it just depends on the circuitry. You should get an IMR cell for it.


----------



## sav

As I am looking to purchase some 18650s with a charger, this thread has really made me reconsider my choices.
There are lots of 3800 /4000/ 4200 /5000mah batteries out there!
Help me! Are all these potential fakes?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-X-UltraFi...US_Rechargeable_Batteries&hash=item461575c8f4
http://www.ebay.com/itm/111159029411?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
http://www.ebay.com/itm/300903446482?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649


----------



## balticvid

What's an IMR cell. As you can see, I'm new at these 18650's.
Thanks


----------



## uk_caver

sav said:


> There are lots of 3800 /4000/ 4200 /5000mah batteries out there!
> Help me! Are all these potential fakes?


They're essentially guaranteed not to have the claimed capacity.


----------



## langham

IMR cells have lower than normal internal resistance which allows them to send more current and have higher efficiency than a normal cell. You will get more Vf for a given battery configuration because they do not have as large of a voltage drop across the cell. With a cheap cell I can get about 2A and with the same flashlight an IMR cell that is pretty old will give me 2.6A so as you can see, that is a large difference. Just do a google for IMR 18650, you could also look at 18700 batteries if they will fit in your light.


----------



## J_C

*Re: Caution budget battery and lumen claims : Tidbit*



Mike_TX said:


> I'm not defending dishonest claims, but I somehow doubt the average buyer can discern between 3000 and 2600 mAh of battery capacity...
> 
> Lumens ratings are the same. As soon as you accept that they're exaggerated, you realize you can use them as a relative guide to output ... i.e., a claimed 1000 lumen light is likely to be a good bit brighter than a claimed 300 lumen light. And frankly, most people just know that a light is bright or dim, so it's not a life-or-death deal.
> 
> All this stuff is a "buyer beware" issue. It's like buying at a market in Mexico - you might not always get exactly what you think you're getting. People need to educate themselves and be informed buyers.
> .
> .



It's not just a buyer beware issue, it is a criminal act of fraud. When I see a light advertised as 300 lumens, I am not buying just a light, I'm looking for 300 lumens, buying a quantity of light whether it's coming from a flashlight or a glowing potato. The part about it being a flashlight is only a means to that end.

It is important to draw a firm line in the sand on this issue because reputable companies should not be disadvantaged with an unfair market due to criminal acts by others. By turning a blind eye we have allowed the problem to go from bad to much, much worse in the last few years. 

There are now generic lights rated for more than triple their actual output. They can sometimes be a great value for the money but in that case they should still be rated accurately, THEN let the customer be aware and educated with facts instead of guesses and lies.

Personally, I won't buy lights that I know are fraudulently rated.


----------



## J_C

Epsilon said:


> This is for everyone to deside. I like high quality and want to pay for it on some occasions.



Excessively overdriving an LED till the die degrades, light getting too hot to comfortably hold if ran for more than a few minutes, suffering less than 50% runtime, all for what the human eye cannot perceive as being much brighter, is not high quality in an EDC light.

Rock solid reliability and versatility is paramount on the light you're going to always have with you. Anything else is just a toy.


----------



## Therrin

*Re: Caution budget battery and lumen claims : Tidbit*



Mike_TX said:


> Well ... I see it this way:
> 
> Most "premium" flashlight makers are charging a premium price for their products, and those products are often over-engineered (and consequently over-priced) for the kind of casual use most of us subject them to. In fact, most high-end flashlights on the market today are engineered for use as "tactical" lights for military, law enforcement and emergency services personnel. Like with a Mercedes car, most of us don't really *need *the degree of strength and quality that's baked into those lights, but some people like the cachet associated with them and are willing to pay the price to "drive" the best.
> 
> In fact, most budget lights use Cree emitters, as stated, so the main desirable component is there. If the body of the light won't quite stand up to Taliban gunfire, the threads aren't ISO 9000 quality, the soldering is a little gobby, and the anodizing won't pass SOCOM standards, it really matters very little to most of us. What matters is that the price is low enough to allow us to have 3 or 5 of them for the price of one of the premiums.
> 
> Now, the batteries are an area where we have to be educated and a bit careful, since misuse or defective products can cause problems. But as long as we deal with reputable sellers and manufacturers we should be safe. And I don't label Ultrafire and Trustfire batteries as automatically suspect.
> 
> So I view budget lights more as "mainstream lights" than as inferior lights. But I don't drive a Mercedes, either.
> 
> .
> .



What you said is correct I suppose, for MOST of you. 

For some of us though, those features are very important. Having it extremely durable, with threads that don't strip, quality o-ring seals that work well, good heat dissipation for extended run times, and impact resistance... while getting as much power density in our batteries and the highest (reasonable) output that we can get in a handheld or head-mounted package.

As was earlier stated on here, applications of lights are entirely personal. YOU may not need those things, or they may not be overly important for you if you're changing your oil filter at night or hunting for spare change under the seat in your car, but other people highly value the things I just listed. 

Joanne (CPF) and I do professional mineshaft exploration, and we're both 'on-call' for mine SAR. 

So it's imperative that our lights be of excellent quality, and can provide enough light if needed to cut through massive spaces underground. Considering that many lights are "over-engineered" as you said, that's good for our peace of mind, considering that the absence of light can put us immediately into a life-or-death situation. So of course we carry several. But I'd rather carry 5 lights that I consider almost bomb-proof, than 5 lights that I think are crap.

And as for the batteries, if I'm underground for 6 to 12 hours, I want to change out batteries as few times as possible, and cut down on the weight of what I have to carry. 

I'd rather purchase a light that costs a little bit more, and "worry" about whether its features are more than I need; than worry about whether it's going to keep working or not.


----------



## uk_caver

*Re: Caution budget battery and lumen claims : Tidbit*



Therrin said:


> But I'd rather carry 5 lights that I consider almost bomb-proof, than 5 lights that I think are crap.


I'd rather carry _two_ lights I considered almost bomb proof than five lights I thought were crap.


----------



## Therrin

*Re: Caution budget battery and lumen claims : Tidbit*

To each his own. I'd RATHER carry 2 lights, but on at least one occasion in the last 6 years I've gone through 3 while underground, and the first one went when I was around 900ft down. So carrying any less wouldn't seem like a very bright idea; for me at least. Mines tend to be inherently a bit more dangerous than caves too.

I like what J C said, 


> Rock solid reliability and versatility is paramount on the light you're going to always have with you. Anything else is just a toy.


----------



## uk_caver

*Re: Caution budget battery and lumen claims : Tidbit*

I typically carry two backups when on long UK trips or out in the Alps, but my main light virtually counts as two anyway - multiple redundancy in the electronics, solid and field-servicable switch, and given that I carry a spare battery pack, in the case of any battery/power cable issues, I'm fairly confident I could do an adequate repair of most plausible failures, given the penknife I always carry.

However, I'm not sure I've ever needed a backup light (at least if I count my old carbide/electric combo as one light).

And regarding crap lights, if I had any, I'd only take them underground for non-essential extra uses, and wouldn't factor them in to backup calculations.


----------



## langham

*Re: Caution budget battery and lumen claims : Tidbit*

How is this in the Caution budget battery and lumen claims? I personally don't buy that many expensive lights because I can re-build cheaper ones for far less and get more light.

These manufacturers do over-charge for the product they sell, because it is a luxury item. You don't need a 1000lm flashlight, but if you do want one you will need to put out some cash.

I have a few high end lights, and I build some for others. I normally will not keep a light unless it starts off in life as a >$100 host, but at the same rate I have liked several of the cheaper lights that I have built a lot more than some of those. I also use expensive cells for my expensive lights, but I have purchased hundreds of budget batteries for builds and less than 10 expensive cells.

As far as explosion proof goes, yeah if I were in the mining business it would be pretty important to me, but I am in the steel business. To each his own I guess. I like my lights, and I am sure you guys like yours. Now a budget light warning; I purchased a flood to zoom light with an XML led in it and the pill was empty. That is right it had a star just sitting on a ledge with almost no surface area for heat transfer between the body and the star. Be on the lookout for these the light was very cheap and I have spent as much on just an LED before.


----------



## dazzleaj

I read a lot but don't post a lot. This is worth my $0.02 perhaps. 

I have had near 100 mag lights of every size and color there was in years past and have modified a few to out shine anything in their line. Took a decade or so off and found LEDs just decimated the incandescents for all practical purposes. I had 2 "serious" lights back in the day, a Magcharger and a Streamlite Super Stinger, both now with new battery packs and ultimately destined for LED upgrades. I bought a Mag LED with a rated 131 lumens and was blown away! I was hooked. I got a Fenix TK12 on sale a couple years ago at christmass and saw what a real LED light could be. I use it for my serious light needs and hav just added a Fenix PD35, just to see if the newer LED is that much better. Much more light yes but I like the feel of the TK12. 

Now for the budget stuff. I have perhaps 25 Tmart, Ebay, and Amazon lights. Some of them give off almost as much light as the PD35! A few have multiple LEDs and blow my car headlights away. Some of these I have paid as little as $5.00 for. As low as $3.50 for the little ones. You just can't beat the fun for the buck factor of these!! I have them everywhere. Kitchen table, work desk, shop, bathroom, bedside table, cars, truck and sometimes in my pocket! Drop something on the floor, get something stuck in the drain, or just to light up the mashed potatoes for the hell of it!! I love it!! I'll go outside and just shine one of the multiple LED monsters at the trees or down the street just because it is so dam powerful!! All this fun for less than meal at any restaurant or burger joint!! AND you get to Keep the light!!! 

I have some of the cursed evil counterfeit batteries, we all get burned I think. Read this thread and pulled apart a laptop battery that didn't cut it any more and got some good 2200 mah that I use in my good lights but I use the crappy ones in my lower output lights. Junk lumens are still lumens and the junkiest of the LEDs drastically out performs my 6D Mag by a long shot and doesn't weigh 500 lbs! Got $7.00 total battery and light tied up in the junkiest. Great for working on the car and has hi, med, and low! Drop it, get oil, grease, crap in general and just wash it off in the sink and throw the battery back on the charger. Whats to complain about?

Enjoy the lumens boys and girls, life is too short!


----------



## Rosoku Chikara

dazzleaj said:


> ...Now for the budget stuff. I have perhaps 25 Tmart, Ebay, and Amazon lights. Some of them give off almost as much light as the PD35! A few have multiple LEDs and blow my car headlights away.  Some of these I have paid as little as $5.00 for. As low as $3.50 for the little ones. You just can't beat the fun for the buck factor of these!!...<snip>



Would you mind posting (in the Budget Light section) more details about what "models" (or photo/description anyway, since it is sometimes very hard to know the real model of such low cost lights) and other details?


----------



## langham

I think the reason he was able to purchase those lights so cheap was due to the fact that they were on e-bay. I do the same thing, research on different forums/keep a close eye on new lights coming out of china and then hit e-bay. The odd thing to me is that you can buy something like the Skyray Kung delivered for $35 and it easily tops 2000lm and has 2 modes with hidden strobe. It also has an all aluminum construction 1.25mm glass lens, aluminum reflector, and 4 XM-L T6 Leds. How do you even construct a light with that much invested in components for that price? Go ahead and look at the price of an XM-L T6 mounted to an aluminum heat-sink and tell me that isn't a steal. Oh and if you are wondering, yes they are incredible.

Sorry about getting off topic, but not really this has to do with lumen claims. I guess that it is a faulty claim if the person that sold the Kung said that it was 6000lm well surprise, surprise, 4 XM-L T6 leds ran at 2A each doesn't equal 6000lm OTF. The leds each put out a max of 900lm at 2.8A and 25C, which puts the theoretical maximum brightness for 4 aluminum mounted T6s at 3600lm, but they aren't driving them that hard, and the reflector design doesn't allow very good light gather, and 25C is not a realistic junction temperature because they are mounted to small aluminum stars with an insulated layer between the thermal pad on the led and the aluminum of the star.


----------



## TheLightAtTheEnd

langham said:


> Have any of you revived a Li battery by wiring it up in parrallel and jumping it off? I have done it twice when the battery has dropped bellow the point at which it can be charged by a charger, and it seems to work very well.



I'm surprised no one has corrected this yet. This is a very dangerous situation. 
The bad cell can draw excessive current causing the cell to heat up. Resulting in thermal runaway and ending very badly either with the cell venting or turning into a massive fireball.


----------



## langham

That is because it is extremely unlikely to happen with modern cells, the chemistry is a lot better and if you are that worried about it just put a small resistor in line. Trust me is not all that likely, like I said I haven't just done it once.


----------



## J_C

langham said:


> That is because it is extremely unlikely to happen with modern cells, the chemistry is a lot better and if you are that worried about it just put a small resistor in line. Trust me is not all that likely, like I said I haven't just done it once.



A resistor is a very good idea. If the cell discharges too low it may develop internal shorts which is the typical cause for excessive heating to the point of venting. Even so, "not all that likely" is still a small risk, I wouldn't do it in an area with combustible materials nearby, maybe in an ammo box or on a concrete floor. It's best to just discard the cells if they go much below 2V.

Better chemistry can only do so much. If they improve the chemistry to the point that the cell is safer till a lower discharge voltage, then they would adjust the protection circuit to a corresponding lower voltage to reap more capacity, but there is still a lower safety limit you're trying to defeat if it has reached the protection cutoff level.


----------



## ChrispyCritter

That's why I always look at rating and review before buying things. I bought a "Ultrafire 1000 LM WF-502B CREE XM-L T6 5-Mode LED Flashlight Torch (With Batteries and Charger)" for under $15..so far very happy for the price. Also have another one coming without batteries for under $8. I'm sure this one will be fine too. So for around $22 I got 2 lights w/batteries and a charger. So far I gave the light 5 stars (can change it later if I have issues) even though I knew the claims are "exaggerated" about the batteries and lumens.

I also think it's the manufacturers/resellers in China that are more at fault for the misleading info because the sellers are just copy-pasting what they say. Sure the seller should know more maybe but if they had the right info in the first place I don't think it would be a problem. Besides reading reviews/rating I tend to test anything I buy that could be a danger..But this should be done with anything even high priced lights. Since getting my light the battery has been out daily getting voltage tests and the 1st day I took it out to see if it got warm at all..all good about 3 days in


----------



## uk_caver

I think many sellers _do_ know more, but it's more convenient for them to echo claims they know are wrong.


----------



## ChrispyCritter

uk_caver said:


> I think many sellers _do_ know more, but it's more convenient for them to echo claims they know are wrong.



I think most probably have an idea the info might be wrong..but asking the seller question about the light I bought it seems they don't even know much about it really except what they were told. In this case it's probably someone without any idea about electronics except how to use them selling this stuff. 

So I can't blame them fully and will buy from them again as long as they make things right with the product if they go wrong. I believe that's all I can ask from "sellers" like the one I purchased from on Amazon. I think the buyer can lay a bit of this on themselves or "buyer beware" too because they like to buy inexpensive things but don't want to research it well. 

It's also your right to send back and get a refund for any light that doesn't live up to the claims (I wouldn't buy from a seller that had a no refund policy unless it was almost free). I researched my purchase well though and so far I'm happy


----------



## ArmoredFiend

Personally, I can see where some of you guys are coming from, both premium and budget lights. Coz I have a friend who kept asking me why I spend so much on flashlights when he could get a rather bright light for less than USD$5. It might not be as bright as to hit 180lumen..but I would guess it’s at around 80lumen..which if you’re to consider the price, is rather good. On top of that, he kept his budget light in the car for past 2yrs and last he checked, a month or so ago, still works fine. I am from Malaysia, and here, it’s Summer all day long for 365 days a year with temperature hitting 40celcius under the sun, and higher inside a parked car without the aircond running. 

I kind of like what dazzleaj said though. Use the premium when you need to rely on them…but at home or in the car, keep some of those budget ones where if broken or lost, you wouldn’t feel a thing. But might come in handy when your Premium EDC is not within easy reach like when you’re in a car with the seat belt on and your premium EDC is in ur front pocket, I bet it’s faster to jst open the glove compartment and take out a budget ones when all you need are jst some light to shine down your gf/spouse’s handbag looking for something. 

So I guess I should start checking out budget ones as well coz they are affordable..and maybe, instead of getting a Fenix TK75 by spending a fortune for the wow factor, I should instead get a budget ones that has maybe 4klumen claim or somewhere there. 

In short, its good to have both premium and budget ones and use them accordingly like whether it’s gonna be a 3 days hike into some unknown caves or a 30mins of book reading on the bed.


----------



## langham

I have almost stopped buying expensive lights, you can mod a $20 light from DX or a similar site to blow away any stock light of a similar cross-section. Manufacturers just don't have access to better material than we do. Actually it is the opposite, I had an XM-L2 version TN-31 way before thrunite put one out. 

I just think that you are paying for a name now days. When a surefire light costs almost $400 USD and I can build a light that is brighter for $45 and it can use rechargeable cells, that is just bad markup. Some manufacturers don't even use direct copper mounted MPCBs for Cree leds that have a built in heat sink pad, Really? 

I also agree that doing you research is important I have been burned by a light that is built so bad that I can't even work with it, but it was also very cheap, so who cares?


----------



## ArmoredFiend

langham said:


> I have almost stopped buying expensive lights, you can mod a $20 light from DX or a similar site to blow away any stock light of a similar cross-section. Manufacturers just don't have access to better material than we do. Actually it is the opposite, I had an XM-L2 version TN-31 way before thrunite put one out.
> 
> I just think that you are paying for a name now days. When a surefire light costs almost $400 USD and I can build a light that is brighter for $45 and it can use rechargeable cells, that is just bad markup. Some manufacturers don't even use direct copper mounted MPCBs for Cree leds that have a built in heat sink pad, Really?
> 
> I also agree that doing you research is important I have been burned by a light that is built so bad that I can't even work with it, but it was also very cheap, so who cares?


Well..surefires can take a bullet and still works...


----------



## langham

If I get shot at the last thing I care about is if my flashlight works. They are made for the military. The argument doesn't work if you can build 10 cheap lights for the price of one durable light.


----------



## J_C

If you are just a causal user and total darkness doesn't matter, sure, buy junk.

Otherwise, some people really need their light to work. It doesn't need to be as bright as the sun, doesn't need to be cheaper than lunch, but needs to work every single time without fail.


----------



## mcnair55

langham said:


> I have almost stopped buying expensive lights, you can mod a $20 light from DX or a similar site to blow away any stock light of a similar cross-section. Manufacturers just don't have access to better material than we do. Actually it is the opposite, I had an XM-L2 version TN-31 way before thrunite put one out.
> 
> I just think that you are paying for a name now days. When a surefire light costs almost $400 USD and I can build a light that is brighter for $45 and it can use rechargeable cells, that is just bad markup. Some manufacturers don't even use direct copper mounted MPCBs for Cree leds that have a built in heat sink pad, Really?
> 
> I also agree that doing you research is important I have been burned by a light that is built so bad that I can't even work with it, but it was also very cheap, so who cares?




You have obviously no idea of mark up and what it caters for and how it is accounted for in the business model.


----------



## J_C

langham said:


> I also agree that doing you research is important I have been burned by a light that is built so bad that I can't even work with it, but it was also very cheap, so who cares?



Most people care. Most people don't think "It was cheap so I don't care.". Instead they think "If I didn't really need light then I wouldn't be holding a flashlight."

To most people a light isn't a science project or contest for the most lumens, it is an everyday essential piece of equipment that doesn't need to break records but does need to work every time without fussing over the details. That's what they pay a major brand for, the attention to detail and testing, so they don't have to spend their own valuable time on such things just to use a flashlight... a gadget that has been around for a century. Your concerns may be different but manufacturers have to target the larger audience, the customer base they want to reach.


----------



## Rosoku Chikara

J_C said:


> ...but does *need to work every time* without fussing over the details...<snip> (_emphasis added)_



I think it may be well worth noting here, that even the same users can have a least two different types of "needs" when it comes to needing a flashlight. 

[I'll grant you that others may (and no doubt do) think differently. But, I believe that most of the people I know would largely agree with the following reasoning.]

1) Critical Need

If I am going camping, or especially light weight backpacking, then I have a "critical need" for a flashlight. If I am simply traveling by car* to some campgrounds, then this need becomes far less critical. But, you still do want a flashlight that "works every time." 

[*The difference with traveling by car is, of course, the fact that, if you can go there by car, you are never all that far from civilization (where you can buy another flashlight), and weight is far less of an issue, so you can carry more back-up flashlights with you, when you are on such a camping trip.]

Anyway, if I have a "critical need" for a flashlight, then I will want to carry a very good (often means "expensive") flashlight. The further from civilization, the longer I will be out there, and the more potentially life threatening the environment; then the "better" the flashlight I want to take with me. Even after I have the best flashlight that I can afford, I still want to take at least another (usually smaller, and more lightweight) flashlight as an emergency back-up flashlight, since even "the best" flashlights can (and do) fail. But, in all such "critical need" situations, you will prefer to carry the most reliable flashlights you can afford.

2) Casual Need

If I am going out in the dark to look for something that I may have left in the car, then I would say that I only have a "casual need" for a flashlight. The colder it is, or the "wetter" the weather is, the more annoyed I am going to be if my flashlight fails. But, it is not a life or death matter. If I am unlucky enough to have my flashlight fail on me, I can simply go back to the house and grab another.

For such "casual needs" I find that a $4.00 Sipik SK68 clone works just fine. They are not 100% reliable (no flashlight is), but in my experience they are at least 99.9% and probably even 99.99% reliable. You wouldn't want to drown one underwater, but they perform fine in normal wet conditions such a rain. (If the zoom function on yours uses a metal tensioning ring, you should replace it with an O-ring.)

While there is nothing wrong with choosing to own only the highest quality flashlights, I believe it is incorrect to assume that you always need such a "good" (expensive?) flashlight, under any and all circumstances. In many situations an extremely low cost flashlight can work just fine, and in some situations you will greatly prefer to have a low cost flashlight readily available. (For example, if you wish to loan a flashlight to some relative, friend, neighbor or even a complete stranger.)

In another post I have presented the theory that it is "better" to purchase 10 x $4.00 Sipik SK68 clones, than 1 x $40.00 flashlight. (And certainly, 100 x $4.00 Sipik SK68 clones, rather than 1 x $400.00 flashlight!). My reasoning is that at the end of say ten years, you are far more likely to have a functioning flashlight if you start out with ten flashlights, rather than only one. (The better the flashlight, the more likely it is to be stolen. Any flashlight can be lost. All flashlights can fail... etc.)

Of course, everyone's needs are different. And, many on this forum are military, law enforcement, fire fighters and emergency services personnel who need the best quality flashlights on a daily basis. (Often their lives, and our lives, depend upon it.) However, for many of us "laymen" this simply not the case.


----------



## J_C

Rosoku Chikara said:


> I think it may be well worth noting here, that even the same users can have a least two different types of "needs" when it comes to needing a flashlight.
> In another post I have presented the theory that it is "better" to purchase 10 x $4.00 Sipik SK68 clones, than 1 x $40.00 flashlight. (And certainly, 100 x $4.00 Sipik SK68 clones, rather than 1 x $400.00 flashlight!). My reasoning is that at the end of say ten years, you are far more likely to have a functioning flashlight if you start out with ten flashlights, rather than only one. (The better the flashlight, the more likely it is to be stolen. Any flashlight can be lost. All flashlights can fail... etc.)



You might have better odds but then you may also be put in a situation where you are without light 6 times due to a generic failing. How many times might that leave you stuck on the side of a road unable to change a flat tire, or bashing your shin against something in the dark, or slipping and falling, or trying to get work done away from home and you now either have a need to bring redundant lights with you everywhere or spend more time and gas to make a trip out to a store to buy a temporary light, or any number of possibilities that didn't _seem _like a critical use beforehand?

You might have a backup light in your vehicle glove box, but what if you are riding in someone else's vehicle? It's not practical to assume you'll always have two lights on your person unless you don't mind carrying around so much stuff that you are wearing holes in your pockets... been there, at some point you can't carry redundant copies of everything.

I use a light on a regular basis, and have bought my share of generics. None have lasted more than a few dozen hours of use. Even my mere $20 EDC, ITP EOS A3 now has more working hours on it than 6 generic lights. Someday it could fail, and I would gladly pay $20 for another or even $40 for some other major brand.

My argument is that while there are both critical and casual uses, one light can handle both if it meets a certain quality level, a quality level rarely found in generics. To many people it is worth the cost of a few lunches to not be stuck in the dark as often.


----------



## Rosoku Chikara

I understand your points, but I still feel my reasoning stands. Please don't misunderstand me. I am not belittling good quality flashlights. I am simply trying to point out that some of the very low cost flashlights that are available, also have their practical uses.



J_C said:


> ...have bought my share of generics. None have lasted more than a few dozen hours of use...<snip>



What "generics" are you referring to? *Have you ever tried a $4.00 Sipik SK68 clone?* 

(Low cost flashlights that don't work are not budget lights, or thing else; they are simply junk. Shop wisely, search for reviews and post questions on this forum, and try to avoid purchasing such useless flashlights. Believe me, there are plenty of junk flashlights out there, and we shouldn't "encourage them" by purchasing those products. Furthermore, just in case you suffer from the common misconception that somehow paying more for a flashlight assures you of getting a "better" product, please note that you can spend $49.90 for a Sipik SK68 clone under the name of a "Heider Super Torch." It is still the exact same flashlight as the $4.00 one, though.)



J_C said:


> ...Even my mere $20 EDC, ITP EOS A3 now has more working hours on it than 6 generic lights. Someday it could fail, and I would gladly pay $20 for another or even $40 for some other major brand...<snip>



I thoroughly researched AAA flashlights (at least to my satisfaction) and ended up purchasing 10 to test out first hand. Here they are:





I ended up concluding that the TANK007 E09 was essentially the same flashlight as the ITP EOS A3, but costs less at only $12.99 from Fastech. I have used mine nearly daily for years, and have purchased at least a dozen more to give away as gifts. Here is an EDC "gift set" that I often give to friends and clients:





So far, every TANK007 E09 that I have purchased has tested out perfectly in both performance and fit/finish. So, in my opinion, the question is: *Why pay more?*

Also, I always carry a 2 x AAA penlight in my backpack that serves as both a backup flashlight and a spare battery carrier.


----------



## J_C

Rosoku Chikara said:


> So far, every TANK007 E09 that I have purchased has tested out perfectly in both performance and fit/finish. So, in my opinion, the question is: *Why pay more?*



The pictures say it all. You've collected flashlights but none of those have had much field use. I have never been referring to whether it looks pretty when brand new or works new out of the box. I'm referring to actually putting them to task, depending on them to keep working hour after hour, day after day. I doubt the Tank007's threads would even hold up to that many battery cycles.

On the other hand, if someone barely ever uses a light, sure any random generic will last a longer # of months to years before failure.


----------



## Rosoku Chikara

J_C said:


> ...On the other hand, if someone barely ever uses a light, sure any random generic will last a longer # of months to years before failure...<snip>



I am sorry to have to keep going "on-and-on" about the same subject, but you must not be reading my posts very closely.

The 10 AAA flashlights shown in the photo are indeed, pretty much still brand new. They are only used as a kind of "masterset" against which to compare other AAA flashlights.

But, as I wrote in my post, I always carry *another* TANK007 E09 with me every day (on my keychain), and it sees nearly daily use for peaking into dark nooks and locating keyholes, etc. 

Not a single problem of any kind, so far. And, as I also wrote, I have now purchased over a dozen of these particular low cost flashlights, and they all came to me in fine condition. 

Furthermore, despite the fact that I have offered a "full warranty" to everyone I have given one to (I tell them that if they will bring it back to me, I will gladly replace it.), so far, no one has ever brought one to back to me. (Perhaps my clients might hesitate to do so, but certainly none of my friends would.)

Once again, I repeat my question: What "generics" are you referring to? *Have you ever tried a $4.00 Sipik SK68 clone* (Given your rather dogmatic statements, I believe that these are highly relevant questions. Please kindly respond.)


----------



## Rosoku Chikara

J_C said:


> ...I doubt the Tank007's threads would even hold up to that many battery cycles...<snip>



Upon what facts are you basing this "doubt"? Here is a photo of the threads of both flashlights (TANK007 E09 & ITP EOS A3). Can you tell at a glance which is which?





The correct answer is: the ITP is on the left. The ITP seems to have very slightly higher thread pitch, but the TANK007 certainly more than makes up for that by having many more threads. They both operate very smoothly, and appear to be the product of good precision machining.

My camera cannot take any better close ups, but upon close and careful visual inspection in good light, my eyes (which are pretty good), cannot see any significant differences in thread profile. Both of these flashlight bodies are machined from the same aircraft-grade aluminum T6061.

Therefore, I see no factual basis whatsoever in your prognosis of early thread failure for the TANK007 E09.


----------



## J_C

Rosoku Chikara said:


> Furthermore, despite the fact that I have offered a "full warranty" to everyone I have given one to (I tell them that if they will bring it back to me, I will gladly replace it.), so far, no one has ever brought one to me. (Perhaps my clients might hesitate to do so, but certainly none of my friends would.)
> 
> Once again, I repeat my question: What "generics" are you referring to? *Have you ever tried a $4.00 Sipik SK68 clone* (Given your rather dogmatic statements, I believe that these are highly relevant questions. Please kindly respond.)



Yes I've used a SK68 clone. The rear switch broke. It wasn't worth fixing, will be an LED and driver donor some day. I think it would be a fine light to leave sitting next to an electrical breaker box or a spare in a tool box, where it doesn't get used because my higher quality lights are always reached for first.

At this point my apathy will cause my retirement from the topic. I pay more so I don't have to deal with all the generics and I'm especially not going to go to even further hassle of remembering all the generic brands and models to list. The whole point is NOT to do any of this, not to buy, order, break, then discuss inferior lights that have already proven to me to be a false value for regular use.

I feel the same way about many items like pocket knives, other tools, clothing, etc. Give me quality over quantity. I only use one at a time.


----------



## Rosoku Chikara

J_C said:


> ...The rear switch broke. It wasn't worth fixing...<snip>



Did you take the switch apart and examine it? There really isn't anything in there to "break." (Much like ancient cars that almost "cannot be killed," the Sipik SK68 uses very simple parts, so short of electrical failure of the driver itself, there really isn't much in there that can truly go permanently wrong. Everything is extremely easy to take apart and put back together again.)

In any case, many many satisfied users will attest to the fact that they have used their Sipik SK68 and/or clone on a daily basis for years without switch failure. (I guess you must have gotten unlucky. Such things do happen. If the flashlight is DOA or fails within the first day or two, even those direct from China sellers are usually happy to send you a replacement for free.)

Anyway, let's just "agree to disagree" and call it a day.


----------



## BronzeLincolns

i certainly don't need all the things that my SRT7 can do. i bought it as an expensive toy. most would buy a flashlight of that quality because they really need it.

if $4 flashlight gives you all that you need in a flashlight then i would agree in saying why pay more?


----------



## danbi

J_C said:


> I pay more so I don't have to deal with all the generics and I'm especially not going to go to even further hassle of remembering all the generic brands and models to list. The whole point is NOT to do any of this, not to buy, order, break, then discuss inferior lights that have already proven to me to be a false value for regular use.
> 
> I feel the same way about many items like pocket knives, other tools, clothing, etc. Give me quality over quantity. I only use one at a time.



As Rosoku Chikara already mentioned, this is an common misconception. You cannot buy quality with money. It is either there or it is not. If you see piece of junk, it does not matter if it costs $4, or $400 --- that is still an piece of junk. The observation that higher priced items have better quality is absolute nonsense, especially when talking about "chinese flashlights". Usually, the expensive "branded" piece and the "non name" piece are machined on the same equipment, in the same plant by the same worker. It just so happens, that one ends up in the bin for sale to "those guys from America who ordered that we stamp XYZ on it, and paid crazy money" --- while the other ends up in the bin "we need to sell this stuff". As you ca imagine (or probably, you can't), more attention will be paid later to sell the "other" bin items to happy buyers. 

It is just a cultural difference. If, the $40 Sipik SK68 was made in Sweden and the $4 one in China, one could argue that perhaps, might be, the Swedish one could posses some nice qualities. Or at least some absurd attention to detail. But truth is, both are made in China. It is just that one is sold by a Chinese seller direct from factory at $4 (and no taxes of any kind paid in the chain), while the other one.. you know, feeds a lot of union leaders in the chain.

Sad reality.


----------



## Trevtrain

danbi said:


> As Rosoku Chikara already mentioned, this is an common misconception. You cannot buy quality with money. It is either there or it is not. If you see piece of junk, it does not matter if it costs $4, or $400 --- that is still an piece of junk. The observation that higher priced items have better quality is absolute nonsense, especially when talking about "chinese flashlights". Usually, the expensive "branded" piece and the "non name" piece are machined on the same equipment, in the same plant by the same worker. It just so happens, that one ends up in the bin for sale to "those guys from America who ordered that we stamp XYZ on it, and paid crazy money" --- while the other ends up in the bin "we need to sell this stuff". As you ca imagine (or probably, you can't), more attention will be paid later to sell the "other" bin items to happy buyers.
> 
> Sad reality.



Sorry but I disagree.

Some of what you say may be correct re products made on the same machines in the same factories but in general, there is very little quality control or attention to detail on most budget (eBay rubbish) lights. Some do not work at all straight out of the box and need to cleaned, lubed or soldered before even functioning at all. Thermal paste under the emitter is often missing completely or pills are hollow to save half a cent in material. Threads are crap, material is thin, anodising is simply paint, o-rings are missing, broken or wrongly sized, drivers are the cheapest 3 mode available, etc......

The whole "Budget" sub-community of flashlight junkies is aware of this which is why there is so much discussion around finding the little gems that can be "modded" into something more useful and satisfying.

Some will buy nothing less than Surefire, HDS, Malkoff, etc. For some of us, this is unaffordable and might not be good value for money.

But there are the likes of Fenix, Olight, Armtek, Thrunite and others - Chinese lights that cost a little more. To say that these lights (for which you pay a little more) are the same junk you can buy for $4 on eBay is absolute nonsense! 

Unfortunately, the general public is not aware of any of this. What they get is ripped off by sellers making vastly inflated claims regarding output, beam and runtimes. 

And that is what the OP was talking about when this thread started.


----------



## langham

Yeah, but I mod a lot of cheap garbage lights and have had a lot of success. In fact there has only ever been one light that I got and didn't bother with, and it was one with a hollow pill as mentioned above. I was attempting to build a light with batteries and a charger for less than $20 for secret santa, didn't work out. I built someone a $15 drop in for a Surefire light and when I said that I always wanted a surefire he asked me why when I could make lights as bright as I do for so cheap. The truth is that I would love to have a Surefire for the above mentioned attention to detail and QC. They have wonderful anodizing that is top notch smooth and hard. That being said I own several Thrunite flashlights a Supbeam and some generic stuff, but no other expensive lights. I just can't justify the price tag. If you want quality you are going to have to do some modifying yourself. You can buy a Surefire if you want, but they have ancient leds that have poor lm/watt ratings. To the above guy with issues, I always advise that people make sure of a few things, fist that the tail switch isn't the problem. You do this by taking the tail switch off and using something to short the body to the - terminal of the battery. Then you make sure the battery isn't the problem. Then you take off the optics/reflector to ensure that nothing is shorting the led leads. And then you should take the pill out and ensure that the wires for the positive and negative are not shorted/broken. The pill itself may also not have a good connection to the negative, or the body. These steps normally help, and if they don't well a SPIK isn't all that expensive just buy 5 more.


----------



## RBWNY

ChrispyCritter said:


> That's why I always look at rating and review before buying things. I bought a "Ultrafire 1000 LM WF-502B CREE XM-L T6 5-Mode LED Flashlight Torch (With Batteries and Charger)" for under $15..so far very happy for the price. Also have another one coming without batteries for under $8. I'm sure this one will be fine too. So for around $22 I got 2 lights w/batteries and a charger. So far I gave the light 5 stars (can change it later if I have issues) even though I knew the claims are "exaggerated" about the batteries and lumens.



I would no more buy an Ultrafire battery & charging combo, than rent a camel and ride it to work everyday! 

Every light I own is a name-brand $50+ light. 

For a little while now, I've become interested in reading review posts from people who've bought Sipik's and Sipik clones. I've become absolutely amazed at the positive reviews they've received. They rave about how bright they are, even with just an alkaline battery...all the while ASSUMING they're looking at a 300lm beam! :shakehead They even marvel at the "square" zoomed-in effect of the LED! I keep asking myself, have they ever even SEEN the beam of a Fenix (or any other regular-priced flashlight) before? What are they comparing this inferior light with to even "think" that it's even worth a few dollars? Would they even know the difference between a $5 light or a $50 light if each hand held one? 

Anyway, I saw a Sipik-type 300lm zoomable clone on Amazon for $4, which had over 1000 mostly positive reviews! It's in the mail to me now. I'm anxious to compare it to any 1 AA cell (comparable) light that I own. I want to prove to myself that either these lights are better than I assume, or that most of the reviewers don't have a CLUE as to what a quality flashlight looks or feels like.


----------



## uk_caver

Well, they could be comparing it with some ancient incan, or a N*5mm LED light they got free with five gallons of fuel, and they may be legitimately impressed and happy with it.

I can't expect other people to share my particular feelings towards lights.
I'm very headlamp oriented, and have personal requirements stressing durability/reliability, runtime, beamshape and controllability, but I'm not greatly bothered about cosmetics or immense output, or light weight.

Some people would get a genuine kick out of the quality feel of a perfectly-finished light, some people not so much.

Some people don't need a light they can particularly depend on.
Some people do, and might be able to get a more trustworthy light by paying for one, if they know the background of various brands and models.

Having said that, when it comes to Li-Ion cells of unknown quality and cheap chargers, maybe it's more a case of a Ford Pinto than a camel...


----------



## langham

I don't like any stock chinese lights, but modded you can't tell the difference. For $50 I can make a light that you can not touch with a stock light of comparable size, of any price. The Thrunite Linx is almost and exception to this, because it has such a nice driver. Other than that though they are made out of solid aluminum and have nice pills usually the Spik's are good quality. The lens is plastic though so it does scratch. I have only owned a couple, but the little ones that run off of a AA are great. You can put a 14500 in most of those and get that 300lm mark that you are looking for, but they will get hot pretty quick.


----------



## Coldblooded357

Personally I usually choose lights in the $60 - $100 range. Fenix, zebra, nitecore. The reason is they're tough enough to be dropped a whole bunch and not break, blindingly bright, have a nice UI, are pocketable, have been 100% trustworthy so far, and are cheap enough that when the next led comes out or the tech gets smaller or whatever I can upgrade. Usually about once a year. Could I spend $300 per light? Sure but would that light be $240 better then my night core p12? Not a chance. As you get to the highest end gear the added functionality comes at an ever more expensive premium. I also have a light to use as an emergency self defense pocket stick. So if I have to pound someone with it I'd rather it be reasonably priced and easily replaceable. So basically it's because of the speed at which the tech is being developed and upgraded, and the exceptional value for the functionality you get in a "budget light" that I choose them. 
Now take knives for example. Here is tech that's moving slowly. This is a place where I'll spend the $400 - whatever to have the best. My $400 busse combat TGLB is gonna be just as tough and sharp as the best knives available 10, 20, even 30 years from now. And for that added money I get a no questions asked lifetime of the KNIFE warrenty. So basically if my kid breaks it 50 years from now because he decides to pound it through a railroad track with a sledge hammer busse will give him a brand new one. Give me that type of warrenty and longevity and sure I'll fork over even an extra $500 for the best. But with the way things are moving I'll stick to my "budget" lights.


----------



## langham

I see your point Coldblooded, I personally don't like to get the newest and best flashlight. I like the ones that I have so I just upgrade the ones that I have. There aren't very many flashlights out there that I think would be worth spending more than $200 on. I like having cool lights as much as the next guy, but count me out for the more expensive lights. I like my cheaper lights more anyway, they just feel more manageable.


----------



## Wentil

I know, check out this latest malarky, where they're claiming a ludicrous 5300 mAH for 18650s.

Mislabeled batteries are very likely the cheapest of the cheap, and in the 1500 mAH range -- if the buyer is lucky.


----------



## Wentil

Oh, wait, it gets even better...

The false claims for 18650 cells are up to 6,000 mAH now.

It's mind-boggling, but people who don't know any better are being misled.


----------



## langham

I like that, can you imagine if that were real though? You would never have to recharge. I don't know why anyone would buy one of those no way you should believe they are real.


----------



## TEEJ

The average joe has no CLUE what it even means....he just sees the 3000 mah are more $ than the 2000 mah, so higher must be better, and then he sees a 10,000 mah, and figures, "well, this must be the best, I don't see any higher (until next week), so I'll get the top of the line 10,000 mah suretocatchfire premium ultra super fancy 18650. I mean, heck, its only $10 for 5 of them. I can't believe those RIP OFF ARTISTS selling ONE 3400 mah 18650 for the price of FIVE 10 THOUSAND Mah 18650....the NERVE!

And the 20 million lumen CREE tactical genuine Royal British Army flashlight was only $8 too, WITH real aerospace aluminum! I LOVE eBay!"


----------



## ven

TEEJ said:


> The average joe has no CLUE what it even means....he just sees the 3000 mah are more $ than the 2000 mah, so higher must be better, and then he sees a 10,000 mah, and figures, "well, this must be the best, I don't see any higher (until next week), so I'll get the top of the line 10,000 mah suretocatchfire premium ultra super fancy 18650. I mean, heck, its only $10 for 5 of them. I can't believe those RIP OFF ARTISTS selling ONE 3400 mah 18650 for the price of FIVE 10 THOUSAND Mah 18650....the NERVE!
> 
> And the 20 million lumen CREE tactical genuine Royal British Army flashlight was only $8 too, WITH real aerospace aluminum! I LOVE eBay!"




:laughing::laughing::laughing:


----------



## CaptainPicard

TEEJ said:


> The average joe has no CLUE what it even means....he just sees the 3000 mah are more $ than the 2000 mah, so higher must be better, and then he sees a 10,000 mah, and figures, "well, this must be the best, I don't see any higher (until next week), so I'll get the top of the line 10,000 mah suretocatchfire premium ultra super fancy 18650. I mean, heck, its only $10 for 5 of them. I can't believe those RIP OFF ARTISTS selling ONE 3400 mah 18650 for the price of FIVE 10 THOUSAND Mah 18650....the NERVE!
> 
> And the 20 million lumen CREE tactical genuine Royal British Army flashlight was only $8 too, WITH real aerospace aluminum! I LOVE eBay!"



I had to walk a fried through this, and even showed them this thread. They couldn't believe it. It was both hilarious and eye-opening to see their reactions.


----------



## LanthanumK

The average person probably doesn't care about capacity of rechargeable batteries, but they do care about brightness of their lights. When I looked to upgrade to 14500 in my clone light to increase brightness (so I heard), I just typed "14500 battery" and pretty much bought the first result on Amazon. Both 14500 batteries are in my younger siblings' hands, ready to be left in the cheap chargers for days on end, forgotten.:shakehead Fortunately they have such abysmally low capacity that there is probably little risk of venting or explosion. A brand new 14500, light used a minute a day on high, dead after a week.


----------



## Trevtrain

LanthanumK said:


> The average person probably doesn't care about capacity of rechargeable batteries, but they do care about brightness of their lights. When I looked to upgrade to 14500 in my clone light to increase brightness (so I heard), I just typed "14500 battery" and pretty much bought the first result on Amazon. Both 14500 batteries are in my younger siblings' hands, ready to be left in the cheap chargers for days on end, forgotten.:shakehead Fortunately they have such abysmally low capacity that there is probably little risk of venting or explosion. A brand new 14500, light used a minute a day on high, dead after a week.



I wouldn't be leaving ANY kind of Li-Ion cell in "younger siblings" hands or "left in cheap chargers". Strongly suggest you acquaint yourself with any of the many care and handling threads here at CPF. Low capacity has absolutely nothing to do with risk of venting or explosion unless it is to make it more likely due to the chance that these crappy cells have no or fake protection circuits.

If you really must use 14500s, get a quality brand and a decent charger and have a think about whether you should be putting these in the hands of kids (if that is the younger siblings you refer to) at all.


----------



## LanthanumK

BTW the brand is Ultrafire. I tell them to remove the batteries as soon as the charger turns green but occasionally they forget. I used the battery for a few months before passing it on.


----------



## TEEJ

LanthanumK said:


> BTW the brand is Ultrafire. I tell them to remove the batteries as soon as the charger turns green but occasionally they forget. I used the battery for a few months before passing it on.



These can be dangerous. You really should not let kids play with them.

Although, to be fair, I have a younger sibling, but he's in his 50's.



BTW - Where in NJ are you?


----------



## Richwouldnt

TEEJ said:


> The average joe has no CLUE what it even means....he just sees the 3000 mah are more $ than the 2000 mah, so higher must be better, and then he sees a 10,000 mah, and figures, "well, this must be the best, I don't see any higher (until next week), so I'll get the top of the line 10,000 mah suretocatchfire premium ultra super fancy 18650. I mean, heck, its only $10 for 5 of them. I can't believe those RIP OFF ARTISTS selling ONE 3400 mah 18650 for the price of FIVE 10 THOUSAND Mah 18650....the NERVE!
> 
> And the 20 million lumen CREE tactical genuine Royal British Army flashlight was only $8 too, WITH real aerospace aluminum! I LOVE eBay!"





It's not just Ebay. As Amazon has made it easier for sellers to list items for sale through their web site, and even provide distribution and warehousing for the sellers, their seller claims have gotten to be ridiculous too in many instances. 15 LED, 18,000 Lumen flashlights and 4000 mAh batteries are only examples that you can find offered on there. Some even with "Amazon Prime" free two day shipping included for Prime members. I REALLY wish that Amazon would monitor sellers listings for obviously false claims as Amazon buyers now need to be as knowledgeable and educated about what they are buying as eBay buyers do.


----------



## EyeisMT40

Wentil said:


> Oh, wait, it gets even better...
> 
> The false claims for 18650 cells are up to 6,000 mAH now.
> 
> It's mind-boggling, but people who don't know any better are being misled.



6000mAH????!! "Genuine" or not...it's a ____-FIRE"......For ME---'Nuff said!!:sick2:
I'd bet serious $$ that dropping that last "0"....would better equate to the TRUE mAH output!!!!
YMMV......but I'd RUN.....NOT WALK....away from this kind of "deal"!!!!


----------



## Brain2014

XML T6 gives near 1000lm only when the current comes to 3A which must make the flashlight heats very quickly! And part of lm will loose when using, so a flashlight with a single XML T6 can never ever gave 1000lm! Sellers who claim products give 2000lm are just wanna catch your attention. But actually 500lm is bright enough for daily use.

About 18650 battery, do you really believe 4000mAh at $3 each? I don't think so.


----------



## langham

The Thrunite Lynx is a single XM-L2 and is 1000lm OTF, and it doesn't get that hot. Using direct copper mounted led and a large surface area head the led stays relatively cool.


----------



## thedoc007

Brain2014 said:


> XML T6 gives near 1000lm only when the current comes to 3A which must make the flashlight heats very quickly! And part of lm will loose when using, so a flashlight with a single XML T6 can never ever gave 1000lm! Sellers who claim products give 2000lm are just wanna catch your attention. But actually 500lm is bright enough for daily use.



2000 lumens from a single XM-L2 is still fantasy...but you can get at least 1600 lumens out of one. Vinh does it all the time. But for stock lights, as far as I know, claiming more than AROUND 1000 lumens is a red flag. It is possible, but caveat emptor! If you see any claims that look high, check it out first, and you might save yourself a hassle.

As for 18650s, currently 3600 mAh is the maximum.


----------



## Etsu

thedoc007 said:


> 2000 lumens from a single XM-L2 is still fantasy...but you can get at least 1600 lumens out of one.



1600 lumens from an XML2? Looking at the spec sheet, you'd probably need to put 5 or 6 amps into the LED to get that kind of output. How long would the LED last being driven that hard? The spec sheet tops out at 3 amps.


----------



## thedoc007

Etsu said:


> 1600 lumens from an XML2? Looking at the spec sheet, you'd probably need to put 5 or 6 amps into the LED to get that kind of output. How long would the LED last being driven that hard? The spec sheet tops out at 3 amps.



Vinh is a modder here...regularly boosts XM-L2 to 6.5 amps or so. Up to 1750 LED lumens. And I have yet to hear of an LED dying because of it. Drivers, yes, but not the LEDs. If you heat-sink it well, and don't run it for too long at one time, it seems to be fine. I'm sure the life will be reduced, but if it goes from 50,000 hours to 5,000 hours, that is still a pretty long time. By the time that goes, you'll probably either have a light to replace it, or at least want an emitter swap. Not really a big drawback in my opinion.


----------



## langham

You can't run a light that hard for very long anyway without active cooling, if you just calculate the waist heat you will realize why. The led is very inefficient after 2.8A anyway and driving it that hard doesn't help. The battery will get hot as well so the light will not be able to be held after just a couple minutes. The lifespan is reduced, but not as much as you would think and if you run a light for less than a minute at a time it will take a long time to run it for even 1000 hrs. Most of the lights that he makes are bought by collectors and are rarely used for anywhere near the life expectancy of the light. He will typically put multiple modes in anyway and those are the ones that you would use most.


----------



## thedoc007

langham said:


> You can't run a light that hard for very long anyway without active cooling.



That really depends on the light, and the ambient conditions. I have a K40vn, for example. Around 1600 lumens, 6-6.5 amps. And I can run it for fifteen minutes (at the highest level) non-stop in cool weather, and indefinitely in cold weather (well, until the cells run out). Three cells have no trouble at all delivering two amps each. And the host is large and well heat-sinked, so it isn't that big of a deal most of the time. Certainly isn't a one minute maximum, like you said. Even in hot weather, it can do more than that without trouble.

You are certainly correct that it generates more heat, and is less efficient, but it also allows amazing throw. If you de-dome and boost current, you can often triple the throw of a stock light. To me, that is well worth it, in most cases.


----------



## langham

I know that a host the size of the K40 will allow that kind of dissipation. I have a modded TN31 with a 5mm*31mm copper heatsink that I made myself that will run for a while before getting too hot to handle. The topic lead me to believe that we were discussing a single 18650 host not a 3*18650 host, which based on your estimation of 15 minutes with a host that size would be pretty difficult to pull. My TN31 can run untill the batteries run out on Hi in any conditions less than 110F and still be held, but it has a massive copper heat-sink and is far from stock in relation to heat-sinking to the body of the light.


----------



## thedoc007

langham said:


> I know that a host the size of the K40 will allow that kind of dissipation. I have a modded TN31 with a 5mm*31mm copper heatsink that I made myself that will run for a while before getting too hot to handle. The topic lead me to believe that we were discussing a single 18650 host not a 3*18650 host, which based on your estimation of 15 minutes with a host that size would be pretty difficult to pull. My TN31 can run untill the batteries run out on Hi in any conditions less than 110F and still be held, but it has a massive copper heat-sink and is far from stock in relation to heat-sinking to the body of the light.



Yes, you are certainly correct that single-18650 lights are not going to run very long with an over-driven LED. But there wasn't any mention of size or configuration in the post I quoted...now that we have clarified what we are talking about, I think the situation is clear and we are in agreement.


----------



## BC FLASHLIGHT

New member and would like to clear a few things up. I plan on purchasing a few Thrunight Flashlights. I want to get the best support batteries and chargers. I read this ENTIRE POST and was thoroughly schooled with the battery false claims. THANK YOU!

That being said, can the experts recommend some 18650 and CR123A batteries that are legit, reliable and decent priced? I have the cash for the batteries and just want to purchase the best batteries. I want the higher current rechargables.

I plan on purchasing the NEW NITECORE D4 Digicharger to maintain the batteries. It looks like it will provide the right info ( current/voltage and charge status) to properly maintain the right charge.

Thanks in advance

Bill


----------



## langham

Can't give you links, but Illumn has great deals on good batteries and chargers. I like the NCR18650BD as a battery and the I4 charger is a lot cheaper than the Digicharger, but the Digicharger is a very nice setup.


----------



## Frisky Willy

I see that this is an old and somewhat infrequently posted-to thread but, as a raw noob, the information and comments are MOST useful. My only LED light is an Ultrafire 502D (labeled as a WF-5020). After eading several threads in other forums along with this one, I have a much different view of flashlights.:

First, my 502D just won't run any more. This unit is probably an authentic Ultrafire as the build quality is very nice: glass lens; the threads are fine and smooth; the finish quite sturdy; the O rings seal it water tight; and it's built like a tank. 

Second, the problem most likely is with the batteries. I have a dozen or so red-wrapped, 3,000 mAh, protected 18650 "Ultrafire" items and they do not hold a charge worth squat after perhaps a dozen charges with an expensive (circa 2007) Maha smart charger. The symptons exhibited by this defunct rig seem to match the problems detailed abaout fake batteries discussed in this thread.

Sooooooo.... I am going to get a new drop-in that will handle two 18650's, perhaps install a custom driver, AND buy some authentic, protected 18650 batteries. Hopefully this revision will raise my 502D from the dead and recommence lighting up the night.

I will update this post once the project is complete and the new set-up is fully tested.


----------



## keltbear

Very helpful post. now ill know what to look for for my budget lights. kept wondering why my smaller light seemed much brighter then the larger one. ah fleabay.:thumbsdow


----------



## davidmiller

I have seen claims of a 6000 lumen flash light that was about the size of a mag 2d flashlight. Alot of that is lies sold from china and hong kong. They dont have same sales regulation laws we have in the usa


----------



## JasonJ

I have some of the red wrapped Ultrafire 3000mAh 18650's that came free with a light... tested them with my new BT-C3400 and they came up at 450mAh and 550mAh each. Pathetic. 

I think they just pick a good sounding number and slap it on the wrapper.


----------



## CuriousOne

Spare cells and extra "lithium" included in this camcorder battery


----------



## bladesmith3

I have never tested any of the red wrapped Ultrafire 3000mAh 18650's that had more then 900mah most much less.


----------



## kwinter2000

I'm surprised that I have not found anything in this thread about underwater use. I just joined the forum and am interested in more info. Lumens vs lux is a major bone of contention when it comes to underwater diving applications because of the different beam angles needed for different applications.


----------



## magellan

*Re: Caution budget battery and lumen claims : Tidbit*



Mike_TX said:


> Well ... I see it this way:
> 
> Most "premium" flashlight makers are charging a premium price for their products, and those products are often over-engineered (and consequently over-priced) for the kind of casual use most of us subject them to. In fact, most high-end flashlights on the market today are engineered for use as "tactical" lights for military, law enforcement and emergency services personnel. Like with a Mercedes car, most of us don't really *need *the degree of strength and quality that's baked into those lights, but some people like the cachet associated with them and are willing to pay the price to "drive" the best.
> 
> In fact, most budget lights use Cree emitters, as stated, so the main desirable component is there. If the body of the light won't quite stand up to Taliban gunfire, the threads aren't ISO 9000 quality, the soldering is a little gobby, and the anodizing won't pass SOCOM standards, it really matters very little to most of us. What matters is that the price is low enough to allow us to have 3 or 5 of them for the price of one of the premiums.
> 
> Now, the batteries are an area where we have to be educated and a bit careful, since misuse or defective products can cause problems. But as long as we deal with reputable sellers and manufacturers we should be safe. And I don't label Ultrafire and Trustfire batteries as automatically suspect.
> 
> So I view budget lights more as "mainstream lights" than as inferior lights. But I don't drive a Mercedes, either.
> 
> .
> .



Nice summary of the issues, thanks.


----------



## vincent3685

*Re: Caution budget battery and lumen claims : Tidbit*

Lately, I am seeing claims for various kinds of batteries in the 4000-10000mah capacity. If I am allowed to post a link, here is one example;
http://www.ebay.com/itm/10x-18650-1...9b5640&pid=100010&rk=3&rkt=22&sd=391220184258
Most of these brands posted on fleabay I've never heard of before. Anyone know anything about these batteries? Can someone please tell me if these mah claims are even possible? Has technology really improved that much in such a short time? At $2 apiece this seems waaaaay too good to be true.


----------



## HKJ

*Re: Caution budget battery and lumen claims : Tidbit*



vincent3685 said:


> Lately, I am seeing claims for various kinds of batteries in the 4000-10000mah capacity.



I do sometimes test that type of batteries, you can see one here: http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/UltraFire SZ18650 9900mAh (Yellow) UK.html
And do not miss the disassembly: http://lygte-info.dk/info/batteryDisassembly9900mAh UK.html


----------



## uk_caver

*Re: Caution budget battery and lumen claims : Tidbit*



vincent3685 said:


> Lately, I am seeing claims for various kinds of batteries in the 4000-10000mah capacity. If I am allowed to post a link, here is one example;[...]
> Most of these brands posted on fleabay I've never heard of before. Anyone know anything about these batteries? Can someone please tell me if these mah claims are even possible? Has technology really improved that much in such a short time? At $2 apiece this seems waaaaay too good to be true.


You're right - the claims are currently impossible. 
Not only would you be extremely lucky if they were anywhere even _approaching_ the 3400-3600mAh of the best genuine cells, you'd be fairly lucky if they weren't recycled from dead equipment, and I wouldn't trust _any_ claims from such sellers of cells, including whether cells were protected.


----------



## vadimax

*Re: Caution budget battery and lumen claims : Tidbit*

Once upon a time have bought a couple of "Meco" 26650 batteries. Were cheap as dirt and I din't know then what does that mean.

Now I've got Opus BT-C100. Decided to check what I already understood is crap (Keeppower 5200 mAh runs roughly 4 times longer): declared -- 5000 mAh, test result -- a bit above 1600 mAh. Yeah, the crap it is


----------



## hsdesai

Hi
I am a newbee and a novice
But I have a Q regarding led string light that have solar rechargeable batteries
Lasted 2 years for me
says ICR, 14500, 3.7v 400mah

Can someone please advice which batteries will suit for these replacements and where can I buy them from- there are heaps on ebay /aliexpress but am not sure which ones are reliable
Cant seem to find comments from buyers either
Hoping this forum members can throw some light on this

Other one I have is
600mah 1.2v NiMH batteries
Please advice


----------



## chrissybabe

The second to last set of batteries (18650) I bought were Ultrafire rated at 3000maH. Testing showed them good for 800maH. The vendor said I had no idea what I was talking about and he had no complaints or returns. They were red and had 3 black bars on them. The last set I purchased were also labelled Ultrafire and rated at 3000maH. Testing showed about 2400maH and are about usual for cheaper cells (that actually make some pretense to be remotely "real"). Both bought here in New Zealand from Trademe. I will pull one of each apart when I have a moment to see whether they have lied about anything else as they both claim protection.
The 800maH cells weighed about 2/3 of the 2400maH so you can almost gain a fair idea of quality just by weighing them.
Also bought a couple of sets of nobrand 26650 rated at 4000maH. All cells tested of these are actually over this so there are good ones out there.
I label all cells with the date, where I bought it and capacity and retest every couple of years. 

To test I discharge the cell at .32AH and time how long it passes this until the voltage drops to 3.3v. Then base the rating on an average voltage of 3.6volts. Not the most scientific but it gives a good feel for the quality of the cell and allows comparisons.

Re torches. Watch out for the lower cost torches especially if they are anodised (and they all are). Anodising is an insulator. So they take the bodies of the torches and biff them into the anodising bath. And they get a good coat and look good. Then you screw 2 halves together and wonder why the torch doesn't work. It is because they are using the joint between the two body parts as an electrical path with both surfaces actually being an insulator. Often they will work because somewhere a small piece of the anodising has punctured through somewhere on the other half making the contact. Tighten it gently and the contact disappears again. Uurgh. Best cure is to remove some of the anodising where both halves will touch when screwed up. You will find that some of these torches will never become reliable. I have found that the small single cell AA or 14450 torches have about a 50% failure rate (nobrand type).


----------



## DVH8

That's some real quality engineering right there!:fail:


----------



## DVH8

CuriousOne said:


> Spare cells and extra "lithium" included in this camcorder battery




That's some real quality engineering right there!:fail:


----------



## bladesmith3

it all looks ok to me...


----------



## wus

I'm looking for a replacement for a 6 cell Sub-C NiMH pack in a handheld vacuum cleaner. The original is stamped with 7.2 Volt 1300mAh (the whole was really cheap). Now I see such packs offered with up to 7 Ah - this seems pretty unbelievable to me. 

How much can I currently expect - realistically! - from a good 6 cell Sub-C assembly?


----------



## uk_caver

wus said:


> I'm looking for a replacement for a 6 cell Sub-C NiMH pack in a handheld vacuum cleaner. The original is stamped with 7.2 Volt 1300mAh (the whole was really cheap). Now I see such packs offered with up to 7 Ah - this seems pretty unbelievable to me.
> 
> How much can I currently expect - realistically! - from a good 6 cell Sub-C assembly?


Looking at the place I often buy cells from, their Sub-C packs range from a quoted 2200mAh to 5000mAh, and checking out a few other honest-looking vendors, it seems 4500-5000mAh is around the top end of honest capacities, so I'd guess that anything significantly over 5Ah may be being 'optimistically' rated.


----------



## kreisl

space-cowboy said:


> NCR18650B is made in Japan
> PVC sleeve made in China
> PCB ?? - Made in Germany?
> Top button?
> 
> 
> All those cells are assembled in China, and nothing wrong with it.


Are we strictly talking lithium-ion cells?

Anyway, the laser pointer of my Bugasalt 2.0 didn't work anymore, so i opened up the battery compartment and was surprised to see some Panasonic AAA inside  . The batteries had leaked. I am substituting NiMH AAA, cr*ppy chinese ones, let's see if they still work.


----------



## uk_caver

Penesamig?


----------



## bladesmith3

i do not see any Panasonic batteries.


----------



## mr.snakeman

Just read this thread and thought I`d see what EBay has to offer today. Several sellers offering yellow label 9800mAh 18650 Ultrafires and many other "brands" also offering many fantasy mAhs in a variety of battery sizes; for example: 2500mAh in a 16340. The list just goes on! What a mess! Caveat emptor!!!


----------

