# Please sell me on buying a Surefire M6



## LED61 (Oct 26, 2006)

I've loved this light from the moment I saw it in the catalog but it only holds expensive primaries and eats them up fast any experiences with the beam is it worth it?


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## BUZ (Oct 26, 2006)

Tad bulky IMO but nice, you can always add something like this: http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=114948


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## Danbo (Oct 26, 2006)

Way too expensive, IMO. I owned one for awhile and traded/sold it off. 

But, I will say that if your conscience allows you to spend that much on a flashlight, your initial reaction when you turn it on will be, "HOLY SHEEEIT!"

It's one bright sumbeeatch, that's for sure. Battery life is not as bad as you might think, as long as you only use the momentary on mode.


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## h2xblive (Oct 26, 2006)

I think of the M6 as a novelty item. Maybe if you used it on your gun, it might be worth it?

Do many people who need to install lights on their guns use an M6? When I see pictures from the military, it seems they use an M2 or M3 or something around that size before they use an M6. Maybe the M6 is more popular with police forces?


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## powernoodle (Oct 26, 2006)

Consider the SF X10. Makes M6-like output, with a factory rechargeable battery. Hi-lo output. Not quite as cool a form factor as the M6, but still a great alternative. And you wont have to buy CR123 batteries by the truckload. 

peace


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## Size15's (Oct 26, 2006)

h2xblive said:


> I think of the M6 as a novelty item. Maybe if you used it on your gun, it might be worth it?
> 
> Do many people who need to install lights on their guns use an M6? When I see pictures from the military, it seems they use an M2 or M3 or something around that size before they use an M6. Maybe the M6 is more popular with police forces?


I have only once seen an M6 attached to a weapon and it was for concept only - not actively used that I recall.
SureFire certainly make a WeaponLight version of the M6 - the M500B which is a dedicated forend which replaced the handguards of a carbine...

You're right, most WeaponLights usually have two or three SF123A batteries - not six!

The M6 may be a "novelty item" to some but to those for whom it is designed and intended it is an extremely power tool. When you need a lot of light but you can't be carrying a lot of flashlight the M6 is top of the line.

Without a doubt I'd be wanting to buy an M6 after I'd purchased an L2 (in the event that all the flashlights I have disappeared)






Certainly for me there is a big element of fun and play when I use the M6 but there have been situations where it's been extremely useful and indeed I was able to claim for the SF123A batteries I used on company expenses.

One of my M6's is in my everyday rucksack...

Al


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## bwaites (Oct 26, 2006)

I'd agree with Size15's here.

The M6 is perhaps the coolest flashlight ever!

I use mine a lot, but that's helped by the fact that I have a rechargeable battery pack.

The size is incredibly compact for the output.

Bill


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## LED61 (Oct 26, 2006)

Oh thanks everybody I really appreciate all your input. I'd sure like to get a hold of a rechargeable solution though before I jump in. Thanks and if anyone feels like adding feel free I'm almost sold!!


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## ABTOMAT (Oct 26, 2006)

I could never justify one. Instead I use a Magcharger with a WA01160. Almost as bright, better throw.


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## h2xblive (Oct 27, 2006)

Size15's said:


> I have only once seen an M6 attached to a weapon and it was for concept only - not actively used that I recall.
> SureFire certainly make a WeaponLight version of the M6 - the M500B which is a dedicated forend which replaced the handguards of a carbine...
> 
> You're right, most WeaponLights usually have two or three SF123A batteries - not six!
> ...



Oh, do tell!


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## ugrey (Oct 27, 2006)

If you want it as a toy,and can afford it, it is a GREAT toy, amazingly bright. Get a rechargable kit from a board member. It is about as bright as a 1 million CP spotlight. It has a broader beam with no rings. It will also sit in your pocket, it's a bit lumpy but it will fit. If you want it for a bump in the night light, IMO, it is the best: 500 lumens! Brighter IS better. The lithium 123 batteries will not self discharge like rechargables. It will be good to go 6 months from now. Mine sits next to a pistol in my home office, where I am most nights. Look at the cost like you would something you are going to have at least 10 years. If you live in a city, its use as a toy will get you some unwanted attention. If I lived in the country, I can not imagine being without one. Have fun!


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## batman (Oct 27, 2006)

this flashlight is so powerful it probably makes a "swoosh" noise like a light saber when you turn it on, commanding instant attention and respect for it's lethality.


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## Size15's (Oct 27, 2006)

h2xblive said:


> Oh, do tell!


The most recent time there was a powersupply failure at work - in the switching room (cupboard basically) the "magic" boxes couldn't decide whether to accept mains power (which meant the lights were on), or backup power (which had run out of juice and which meant the lights were off) - so it was switching back and forth - The room lights and building power was switching on and off quite fast.
The fixit man's flashlight was dead because his charger was at his depot and he'd been out on call for three days. All of the flashlights at work were still dead - a fact which I had discovered like 6 months earlier and written a memo to our Facilities manager to ensure they knew to replace them. They hadn't been.

In asking around for a flashlight I lent the fixit man my M6 (MN20 lamp) which was bright enough to obliterate the flashing overhead lights so he could concentrate on fixing the magic inside the "magic" boxes so the building could correctly decide which power supply to draw from...

Any less light and the flashing overhead lights would have been too much of a distraction - for example the L2 was not bright enough. The M6 was required.

Al


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## OverLord1 (Oct 27, 2006)

I just got my M6-CB a couple of weeks ago after comtemplating the purchase of a $330 light for almost a year. Now that I have it I don't regret spending the cash one bit. The interesting thing for me was that I assumed that I would be using the HOLA and had not even considered using the LOLA on a permanent basis. At least to me, the LOLA appears to be more than 250 lumens and it is plenty bright for any task that I would need a flashlight for. My HOLA is still in the sealed baggie and honestly it will probably remain there for some time.

Ed


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## cnjl3 (Oct 27, 2006)

I love my M6! I guess if you have a purpose for the light it is a lot easier to justify the cost. I use my M6 for hunting and thus i use the LOLA more times than the HOLA. I love how compact the package is and yet the brightness factor always generates a big "WOW". Some M6 owners (me too!) are anxiously awaiting our rechargeable solutions from AWR which will only enhance the M6. It will not only save your bulbs (soft start) it will increase run time and the best part is that you wont have to shell out for the 123's unless you want to.


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## h2xblive (Oct 27, 2006)

Size15's said:


> The most recent time there was a powersupply failure at work - in the switching room (cupboard basically) the "magic" boxes couldn't decide whether to accept mains power (which meant the lights were on), or backup power (which had run out of juice and which meant the lights were off) - so it was switching back and forth - The room lights and building power was switching on and off quite fast.
> The fixit man's flashlight was dead because his charger was at his depot and he'd been out on call for three days. All of the flashlights at work were still dead - a fact which I had discovered like 6 months earlier and written a memo to our Facilities manager to ensure they knew to replace them. They hadn't been.
> 
> In asking around for a flashlight I lent the fixit man my M6 (MN20 lamp) which was bright enough to obliterate the flashing overhead lights so he could concentrate on fixing the magic inside the "magic" boxes so the building could correctly decide which power supply to draw from...
> ...



interesting story


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Oct 27, 2006)

In price, size, output, and lumen-hours per charge, how does a rechargeable M6 stack up against some of the superlights sold in the Mods forum--lights like FiveMega Mag mods (AA, 18500, 18650, 17670), FiveMega Stinger mods, ROP High, Mag 1185? Others?


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## LED61 (Oct 27, 2006)

OverLord1 said:


> I just got my M6-CB a couple of weeks ago after comtemplating the purchase of a $330 light for almost a year. Now that I have it I don't regret spending the cash one bit. The interesting thing for me was that I assumed that I would be using the HOLA and had not even considered using the LOLA on a permanent basis. At least to me, the LOLA appears to be more than 250 lumens and it is plenty bright for any task that I would need a flashlight for. My HOLA is still in the sealed baggie and honestly it will probably remain there for some time.
> 
> Ed


 
Are you afraid you'll never go back to the LOLA?


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## Size15's (Oct 27, 2006)

LED61 said:


> Are you afraid you'll never go back to the LOLA?



Most of the times I prefer the HOLA - P61, MN11, MN16, N62 etc but I actually think the MN20 has a lot to offer because the M6's battery pack is so powerful the MN20 is brilliant white for longer.

I am not surprised that people prefer the MN20 over the MN21, or feel that the MN20 does such a great job that the MN21 can remain wrapped up.

Al


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## CM (Oct 27, 2006)

I use the MN21 a lot. With 18650's, it's free lumens.


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## Topper (Oct 27, 2006)

I wish I could help you with this but as I only have two SF M6's I am not sure I qualify as a bona fide M6 guru. I don't feel like a guru so I am most likely not one. I can say I am very impressed with them. (The SF M6's not guru's)
Topper


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## PoliceScannerMan (Oct 27, 2006)

CM said:


> I use the MN21 a lot. With 18650's, it's free lumens.


I run the same set up in a bored out M4. 2 x 18650 fit perfectly. I run the MN20/MN21 occaisionly, but my favorite in the M4 on 2 x 18650 is the N2. Good white light, and excellect mix of brightness and throw! 

Nothing beats guilt free lumens.... :naughty:


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## LED61 (Oct 27, 2006)

CM said:


> I use the MN21 a lot. With 18650's, it's free lumens.


 
Did you modify the stock magazine yourself to fit these in or is the setup a special one?


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## CM (Oct 27, 2006)

LED61 said:


> Did you modify the stock magazine yourself to fit these in or is the setup a special one?



Home made poor man's version. Fugly but there is almost no measurable resistance in the electrical path


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## AW (Oct 28, 2006)

I run my M6 on 6 X 17500s with either a WA1111 for long runtime or WA1185 for stunning brightness. Details here :


http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=120432


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## LED61 (Oct 28, 2006)

too bad not all of us are electronic wizards...:candle:


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## LED61 (Oct 30, 2006)

Well guys, all I can say is: damn you all!!!! you sold me on the M6. I just bought one from Mike at opticshq. A beautiful M6-CB:nana: Good price from opticshq as always and great customer care.


Actually thank you very much to all that posted, it was really helpful and just what I needed to jump in. Did you all know that Surefire is not shipping these with the MN 20 lamp anymore because of lamp scarcity? But mine has one in the package...opticshq made sure of it. Thank God. There are no lamps available so if you can get a hold of some stock up now. Surefire is not even offering an estimated date of availability for the MN 20. I wonder how this will compare to the Microfire k2000R I have on order with them?


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## Topper (Oct 30, 2006)

If you get used to the MN21 you won't mind not having spare MN20's laying around.
Have fun with your new M6.
Topper


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## js (Nov 1, 2006)

The M6 is an awesome light. It is totally worth the price for many people here, who appreciate high quality, high performance flashlights. It is most ephatically NOT a novelty item or a toy.

People talk about "guilt-free" lumens and how the M6 costs $xx dollars per hour to run and all sorts of crap like that, but over the years I have come to a rather definite, considered professional opinion regarding these things. And it is this: THERE ARE NO GUILT FREE LUMENS. In the sense of lumens that are so low cost as to be of no consequence.

I spent a great deal of time and money developing the very first drop-in rechargeable power pack for the SureFire M6 running the MN21 LA, and from what I have seen, a large number of the people who bought oine of my M6-R packs would have been better off spending the money on CR123 primary batteries. A $110 to $160 buys a whole lot of 123's. And for the most part they don't go bad sitting around (or at least the SF123's or Duracell 123's haven't so far). They can sit around for years, through all kinds of temperatures, and still be good to go when you need them. I have had many HUNDREDS of dollars of rechargeable cells go bad on me. Most recently I have had five 8 cell Sanyo 2500 AA packs go bad on me, despite a monthly maintenance routine. I have had two TigerLight rechargeable packs go bad on me. I have had $600 worth of Gold Peak 1100 2/3A cells go bad on me. I have had $200 worth of KAN 1800 and 1050 cell packs go bad on me. Here at my work I recently had to step in to stop the riggers from destroying $100 NiCd crane battery packs every 6 months due to constant overcharge.

I gotta tell ya, after all my experience, I see the wisdom of the SureFire lights which run off of primary 123's. And even though you can argue that Li-ion cells don't go bad in the way that Ni chemsitry cells do, the fact is that at high draw rates their cycle life isn't good (conventional ones, anyway), and if they are unprotected, you have to worry about over-discharging them and all that. And even if all of that isn't an issue, how many primary 123's can you get for the same money you drop on a Pila setup for your L4?

No. There is no such thing as free lumens. If a rechargeable set-up eases your conscience and makes them "guilt-free", more power to you. That's great!

But for me, the M6 running the MN20 is one of the most perfect embodiments of flashlight excellence. It's bright--400 lumens, by my estimate--and for all real world use, throws JUST AS FAR AS A MAGCHARGER w/1160; because, really, how useful is a tiny spot of light in the far distance surrounded by a sea of darkness. It runs for an hour+. It's very, very well shock isolated. It's a beauty to behold and a pleasure to use. And it's very VERY functional.

In short, the M6 would be MY vote for King of flashlights.

And if I may offer some advice it would be this:

Forget a rechargeable solution. Don't sink a $100 or $200 into a rechargeable mod-project which sees repeated delays and then maybe even never comes to completion! Don't hack the battery holder or LA. Don't try to "mod" your M6 to use the 1111 or 1185. That's just plain friggin stupid.

Look, take the damn money and buy yourself some SF123's and just use the light whenever you need to. Trust me, you'll end up ahead of the game in the long run. You *don't mess with perfection*. You don't drill out the tail cap or destroy the MB20 or switch to another lamp. The M6 running either the MN20 or MN21 is perfection. Just buy a lot of 123's and use it. USE IT, USE IT, USE IT. Let your consciousness be permeated by the knowledge that all flashlights cost money to run, and that the best ones cost a LOT of money in the big picture, one way or another, but that THEY ARE WORTH IT. Don't fool yourself into thinking there are free lumens and end up spending more money in the long run to assuage your "guilt" about it. If you're serious about your hobby and your illumination tools, you'll just spend a lot of money on a lot of 123's and be done with it.

Guilt-free lumens? Please!


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## dizzy (Nov 1, 2006)

As for the M6,if you use your light alot, several hours a week for example, a rechargable setup would more than be worth the money. If you only use it a few minutes a week, then you are correct that you may as well stick with cr123A's.


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## Size15's (Nov 1, 2006)

Personal attacks, real and perceived are distruptive - if members have concerns or issues etc regarding other members please contact CPF Staff via pm or email so we can help resolve things.

Thanks,
Al


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## js (Nov 1, 2006)

dizzy,

The statement was not meant to be a personal attack on andrewwynn. I edited my post to remove any chance of someone interpreting it that way.

Any mod project is subject to delays. They are endemic to such ventures. It happened to my own M6-R project, which indeed got canceled about half-way through.

Clear?


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## andrewwynn (Nov 2, 2006)

I appreciate the modification the post regardles.. i've been 'noticeably silent' on this thread because i don't pressure people to buy in to a long-overdue project and especially not 'til they are ready to take the chance on waiting.. which fortunately is soon to be a thing of the past. 

It is ok to have and share an opinion about the concept of a pre-pay project.. and as soon as i'm more on top of things you could bet $1000 i would be in on this thread to point out what is 'now available' for making an M6 cost $3/hr to run vs $36/hr.. 

I will repeat my original statement about the underpowered plant of the M6... When we did a head-to-head with the M66.. the M6 crapped out at 11 minutes and measured over 200F... in my personal opinion.. is that the power plant is amazingly deficient.. why when both energizer and duracell claim 1500mA MAX for their 123 cells.. that SF has 'magic ones' that it's ok to use at 2.5A... well.. they can't cut the mustard.. as many people have come to that problem of overheating cells. 

Some very simple facts about the powerplant in the M6: 

the cells are rated about 1.3AH.. and wired in 3S2P.. no-load voltage of about 9V... but under load the tremendous current drain pulls them down to about 2.3V/cell.. the output at the lamp is about 34W.. about the same as the mag85.. but with about 70% of the efficiency! (figuring 630L for the M6, and 880L for the Mag85 (done properly)).. So.. with 1.3AH x 2 since in parallel.. a 2.6AH pack.. but you get maybe 20 minutes runtime.. so with a 2.6AH pack pulling 4.9A should net you 32 minutes runtime.. which means that you are putting 32-20 = 12/60h x 34W = 6.8WH of heat into the battery pack.. the bat. pack is 2.6AH x 9V = 23.4WH so 29% of the energy stored in the CR123s is being pumped into heating the cells.. 

NOW.. in the defense of surefire.. it's a power vs energy tradeoff.. batteries output the most power at 50% efficiency, however the cells just love to have big problems if you pull even more current out of them.. it's an ok choice to make that trade-off but i'm a staunch believer in NOT pushing things past their rated limits, which unbelievably to me.. SF does in the M6.. those cells absolutely are not designed to take the abuse they get.. SF doesn't have a corner market on martian lithium that has different properties than duracell and energizer! 

In addition the BRAND NEW MB20 pack that came with the M6 i use here.. has had less than 40 minutes of total use and i've had to tweak the spring tension on most of the springs for the cells to not fall out... SF clients deserve better, so.. i'm working on it. 

The LION packs i'm working on use ALL protected cells.. i am having them custom made and it's the main cause of the delay since they are not done yet i can't assemble the fully protected cells yet.. 

good • cheap • fast: pick any two. 

I could *buy* PILA cells for $200 a set or i can have custom made more powerful cells made and *sell* them for $80 a set included in my solution... it's troublesome that 'doing it the right way' has taken so much longer.. and it was an absolute requirement for enough people to pre-pay to make the project happen and *everybody* that ends up with an HDM6 will benefit from those gutsy ones willing to take the risk of the time delay. 

I will point out a dead serious fact about HDM6... at $120.. it will pay for itself with TWO CHARGES.. what else really needs to be said? 

I can also mention that though i love aspects of the M6.. the durability and the grip are outstanding.. the beam is not as perfect as it could be.. i have half a dozne lights that are more efficient, brighter, whiter, more flood, more throw.. and at least one that is all those and yet SMALLER... so if the OUTPUT is important to you there are better solutions.. if pride of ownership of a work of art 'cost no object' than the M6 does appeal to a great many.

To me.. it's waaay to clumsy to operate.. i have smaller than avg. hands and i actually have to get forearms involved to twist the tailcap.. it's amazingly stiff with the two o-rings.. i couldn't use the light as an EDC because the operation is very difficult compared to most of the lights i use, so based on only that i wouldn't use the M6, though they are fun to play with and especially when the lumens are guilt free.. not packing landfils, not costing twice the cost of an SUV driving 65mph... just silently beaming away at 2¢/hour for the juice (the lamp cost still is probably $2-4/hr). 

as far as the $120 buys a lot of 123s.. not really.. not when you consume them at a rate of 18 per hour! Like i said.. TWO charges pays for the HDM6.. I don't bend any arms to sell them.. people that are waiting will absolutely find they are worth the wait. It will not be long before they are a 'stocked' item and there will be NO wait.. however i will have a substantial increase in the price to give a kickback to the people who had the guts to jump on the project and make it a reality in the first place.

For all the info on the hdm6 just hit the link in my signature! 

I'm very pragmatic about my evaluation and debate about this.. there is no cause to get into a 'heated debate'.. anybody that wants to bring up any valid counter arguments to something i said, i can knock them out of the park one at a time. In a time when we are blowing the worlds precious resources.. it's a really tough battle to try to say using a primary cell has any advantage over rechargeables in a situation like this.

As far as the examples mentioned above where primary is better than the M6-R.. yes.. that is because it uses NIMH cells which won't hold a charge and have no real energy density advantage over the primary cells.. hence... you charge it and use it for 5-10 minutes over a month and you will find that a month after that it won't turn on... this will not be the case with HDM6.. you'll be able to leave it sit for SIX months and it will still run longer than an MB20 pack, and continuous at that! 

Now.. there are SOME uses.. say you use your M6 2 mintues/month.. its' probably better to stick with the primaries.. you just don't use it enough to warrant the capital investment and overhead.. however i will go out on a limb to say that will be the '1% class' of M6 user, especially once the total operational cost drops from $35-40/hr to $2-3/hr.. (maybe as much as $4-5/hr when factoring in replacement cells ever 3-4 yrs). 

So.. I realize it will still take a bit to get these out to the baited-breath buyers and they can see what their M6 is really capable of, but my invention will stand on it's own just like the regular hotdriver.. which we've now shipped over 200 units.. There is a very low rate of returns and the majority are set up plug n play so there are maybe 150 operational hotdriver powered lights in use this very day.. the users will tell you themselves what they think, i don't need to promote it really.. they just sell themselves. 

I will respectfully and strongly disagree with one point JS made:



js said:


> Forget a rechargeable solution. Don't sink a $100 or $200 into a rechargeable mod-project which sees repeated delays and then maybe even never comes to completion! Don't hack the battery holder or LA. Don't try to "mod" your M6 to use the 1111 or 1185. That's just plain friggin stupid.


This actually is two part.. first.. it's a solid piece of advice from somebody that made a project that had repeated delays and didn't come to completion.. but also.. the second half about 'don't hack'... i will take a stand for the large quantity of 'modders' on CPF who should take offense of being called stupid.. i've seen some very clever and innovative solutions based on the M6 in numerous *genius* ways.. the absolute opposite of 'stupid'.. i realize that JS talks in hyperbola.. once telling me i was 'absolutely crazy' to think i could run an LDO driver in a 100W flashlight, yet i've made a couple dozen of them and they are fantaboulous.. 

it's absolutely not 'stupid'.. to realize that replacing a $31 lamp with one that is $6 and outputs more light for longer... and replacing unreliable primary batteries that cost $35/hr with a rechargeable pack that cost pennies per hour... it's just plain common sense to look into these solutions.. very extremely logical. 

No hard feelings JS, please don't take offense as i think you are aware from our previous discussions there is a mutual respect between us.. i'd like to keep it that way.


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## LED61 (Nov 2, 2006)

I have great respect for all the genius modders in this forum, as they have undoubtedly come up with some very fine selective products, and that in itself is a great essence on this forum. That being said, your post IMHO makes a supposedly great stock factory light look pretty poor in performance. I also have great respect for a company like Surefire and expect their R&D team to be no less geniuses in flashlight design. 


"I will repeat my original statement about the underpowered plant of the M6... When we did a head-to-head with the M66.. the M6 crapped out at 11 minutes and measured over 200F... in my personal opinion.. is that the power plant is amazingly deficient.. why when both energizer and duracell claim 1500mA MAX for their 123 cells.. that SF has 'magic ones' that it's ok to use at 2.5A... well.. they can't cut the mustard.. as many people have come to that problem of overheating cells. "


You mean to tell me I just bought a factory new flashlight that can only run for 11 minutes continuous on factory batteries?

With all due respect, I'd like somebody like Al who apparently has used his M6 on SF's to clarify this for me.


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## Carpe Diem (Nov 2, 2006)

Some things I know for sure:

1) I have six M6`s, all of which have MN21 HOLA`s installed and are located around the house, in our vehicles, and in my briefcase...ready for immediate use.

2) I`m using two rechargeable power packs that I bought from Jim, and to date they are working like a charm. (Thank you, Jim!)

3) I`ve ordered a rechargeable battery pack from Andrew as well, and am looking forward to getting it and using it. (I also plan on ordering more from him when and if they are available.)

4) From reading the many threads and posts that Jim has made on the CPF, I know him to be a good person...the type of person you`d be honored to have as a friend.

5) The tribute in above #4 also applies totally and fully to Andrew. I`ve also had the pleasure of personally meeting him when he was kind enough to drop by my home for a visit. He is a good person...and again, the type of person you`d be honored to have as a friend.

6) I`m a strong advocate for politeness and civility on the CPF. It has always been a very enjoyable and true community of eclectic souls, and we should all work hard to make sure that this hallmark feature is never diminished or lost.



Yes...
These are some of the things that I know for sure. 

Best wishes to all!


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## js (Nov 2, 2006)

AWR,

No hard feelings at all! You should know that! If anyone would be worried about such things it would be me.

BUT, I know that you are well aware of my (occaisionally) "hyperbolic" posting style, and am thankful for your generous and no-nonsense attitude towards me. Thanks, Andrew.

FOR THE RECORD:

AWR and I are on friendly terms. We have talked on the phone more than once. I like him, and from what I can tell, he doesn't hate me.

Here are some facts:

1. I canceled my M6-R project orders a little over half-way through. I ended up making about 40 packs out of 60 that were ordered.

2. I canceled mainly because I had $600 worth of GP 1100 cells go bad on me, but also because AWR *promised me that his rechargeable solution would be shipping only a couple months from April*. Here is my post from 4/4/06 in my M6-R order and information thread part 2:



js said:


> OK. Lots to say.
> 
> 230 or so (all my remaining cells) of my GP 1100 2/3A's have gone "lame", which is as good as "bad" for the M6-R application. Instead of getting 1050 or so mAh at 1C draw, I am only getting 900 or so. This would correspond to at least a 4 minute reduction in runtime. So instead of 19 minutes, these would yield 15 minutes. This is obviously unacceptable. The cells do no cycle up to capacity in any reasonable number of cycles, although some experiments that SilverFox has done do suggest that after 50 or so cycles they might regain the 200 mAh of missing capacity.
> 
> ...



As you can see, I do not think that the HD-M6 is "stupid". Not then, not now.

But as you can also see, AWR didn't deliver on the promise, and *if I had known then* that the HD-M6 would still not be available by November of 2006, I would never have endorsed it and sent AWR all that money I had in my possession. I feel (and felt) a fiducial responsiblity to the people whose money I had. I could have been finished with 20 more M6-R packs in 6 months. I was averaging about 1 pack a week.

I do not harbor any ill will or hard feelings towards Andrew for the delays. Given that he changed the design in mid-stream, it's totally understandable. He wants to offer the best solution he can. I respect that. But the fact is that I a lot of people have been missing a lot of money for a long time waiting for some kind of rechargeable solution. And it has still not materialized.

THERE IS NOTHING PERSONAL about these statements. THEY ARE NOT ATTACKS. These are the things that were behind my initial statement.

And in point of fact, anyone can go and look over the threads and see the record of various mod projects, AWR's, mine, bwaites', etc.

YOU GIVE A MODDER YOUR MONEY, YOU TAKE YOUR CHANCES.

As for my quoted statement about hacking the battery holder or using an 1111 or 1185, I stand by it. It is not hyperbole, in the sense that I MEAN IT. I do think it's stupid.

The M6 is far too expensive to be this kind of host. The MB20 alone is $90. In my opinion, FWIW, if you want to use WA lamps, use a host like a TL or Mag. It seems crazy to me to pay a lot of money for an M6 and then give up one of the major advantages to it: the beautiful, precisely aligned beams the come from the SF LA's.

Just my opinion. As I said in another thread, the fact that I think this sort of modding is stupid DOES NOT mean I think the people who do it are stupid. There is a difference. I hope everyone can see this?

As for the tired old discussion of how wastefull the M6 is when using the HOLA and how it costs $36 an hour and so on, well, all of this ground has been covered before.

The M6 w/ HOLA was never meant to be run this way. No one stands around using the M6/MN21 as a task light, dropping MB20 after MB20 into it, hour after hour. You would obviously not use it this way. The MN20 is more appropriate for this use. But even then, in my opinion, a lantern or spot light or X990 type of long running HID light or a headlamp or something like that makes more sense in those situations.

AND, on top of that, the premature failure of 123's driving the MN21 is not very common. More common, unfortunately, that I would like, but still, it has only happened to me once, that I can remember, and only on full-out non-stop burns. Which is not the best use for the M6 running the MN21 anyway.

In terms of energy density, it's pretty hard to beat Li-MN-O2 primary cells at 1C or slower discharge rates. Plus, you can carry spares quite easily.

Anyway, look, obviously if you are going to be using your M6 a whole lot, and must use the MN21, then, yes, a rechargeable solution like the HD-M6 or my M6-R pack is a smart idea.

I only say that from what I have seen over the years, most people actually would be fine sticking with 123's. Despite what AWR says, I find a $100 worth of 123's goes a long way for most people here.

And I diagree that two charges pays for the HD-M6. Not so. Not when you consider the MN20. But be that as it may, I have no problem with the HD-M6. It's your money. If you think it will fit your bill, go for it.

I just want to suggest that you carefully and honestly examine your flashlight usage to see whether or not primary 123's might not be a better idea. They just might be. Or maybe another light entirely and not the SF M6.


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## js (Nov 2, 2006)

LED61 said:


> I have great respect for all the genius modders in this forum, as they have undoubtedly come up with some very fine selective products, and that in itself is a great essence on this forum. That being said, your post IMHO makes a supposedly great stock factory light look pretty poor in performance. I also have great respect for a company like Surefire and expect their R&D team to be no less geniuses in flashlight design.
> 
> 
> "I will repeat my original statement about the underpowered plant of the M6... When we did a head-to-head with the M66.. the M6 crapped out at 11 minutes and measured over 200F... in my personal opinion.. is that the power plant is amazingly deficient.. why when both energizer and duracell claim 1500mA MAX for their 123 cells.. that SF has 'magic ones' that it's ok to use at 2.5A... well.. they can't cut the mustard.. as many people have come to that problem of overheating cells. "
> ...



LED61, yes, quite right! This is a serious accusation on AWR's part, and it does suggest exactly what you say: that the SF engineers and designers are out to lunch and didn't know what they were doing--at least in this one situation.

I posted a thread on the subject when I had my one time thermal shutdown: Thermal shutdown during continuous SF M6 running?

Check it out. In short, it isn't common. And in short, I know the genius of some of the SF design team from first-hand conversations, and I can tell you they are very smart, very informed, very savvy, and know EXACTLY what they are doing. And they never intended the PRIMARY use of the MN21 to be constant-on full-out burns, although most of the time it stands up to this use just fine.

As modders, we tend to pull the lions tail and stack up our modded hot-rod lights against the SF M6 HOLA and say "Hehe. Look. My Mag-900055511 is brighter than a SF M6!"

Well, Ok. Fine. Maybe it is--today--in your safe laboratory/home environment. But what about in the field, in use, over months and months. What about then?

I take great pride in paying attention to the TOTAL LIGHT, and the TOTAL USE situation, but I have seen plenty of things come back to me for repair or replacement due to various failures. That's the luxury of making a custom hot-rod light. You don't have to worry about these things.

As a TL consultant, directly responsible for the Gen4 LA, 375 lumen LA, premium pack, and new fast charger, I can tell you that these sorts of long term, real-world use, will bite you in the a** when you least expect it.

Most recently, I have had some of my regulated TigerLights come back to me due to the battery packs developing high self-discharge rates.

Yes. SureFire knows what it is doing, and its record speaks for itself. Every company will have problems--no way to avoid them in the real world, in mass production lights--but SureFire has done a lot better than most on these counts.


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## andrewwynn (Nov 2, 2006)

LED61 said:


> You mean to tell me I just bought a factory new flashlight that can only run for 11 minutes continuous on factory batteries?


That is exactly the fact... now.. maybe if you are jogging or something to keep the light cool it might run longer, but many people have posted on the nature of the CR123 cells going kaput when over-driven (which is most certainly the case with the MN21 lamp!). 

I will back up point #4 from Carpe Diem.. and #6.. me n JS are not enemies, and though there is some 'bad feelings' going on as he aptly pointed out... there are some MAJOR faults in the M6-R as good as it is that make is not a good solution for many if not most people... JS has told me himself the cells he had initially picked out were virtually worthless.. that the '1200mAH' cells were pulling 900mAH on the tester.. 

Getting on to point-by-point to JS posts.

It should be pretty clear there is no animosity to JS from me, far from anything like 'hate the guy'.. 

I never made any 'promise of timeline' which is not really possible on a project of this type, but i did tell JS that the projected timeline was 2-3 months which was true at that time.. since that point in time.. well over 100 hrs of design modification went into the product, mostly before the PCBs could be ordered and a completely new hotdriver was invented to fill the boots of the M6-R... considering that the vOne hotdriver took from august 'til January to develop... the vTwo going from March or so 'til August or so.. not terrible... 

I feel bad that things take longer than hoped.. but every delay brought forth a SIGNIFICANT improvement in the design! 

There is nothing simlar available and the fact that the HDM6 has double the runtime and maybe 1/5th or less the self-discharge means that though it has been painful to wait.. the vast superiority for the 'normal user' for the HDM6 over the M6-R will make it worth *any* wait. 

I will have to point out for full disclosure that only about FOUR M6-R orders were converted to HDM6 from JS.. its' not like there were 20-30 orders or thousands of dollars that were sent my way.. and those people will be faaaarrr happier with my solution even though it might have cost them an extra $100 in primary cells in the meantime..

it's silly JS, to call modding an MB20 pack stupid.. it's a very solid part that can easily be modified.. and far easier in many respects than trying to make a ground-up solution... you can have your opinion but you can also be wrong... don't belittle creative genius.. there is nothing inherently wrong with modifying *any* flashlight.

You are not 'giving up' anything other than how much $ you spend by swapping out a WA lamp into a SF M6.. plenty of options will give you a better smoother rounder brighter more efficient beam. The solution that FM came up with for holding a WA lamp in an MN holder is not sloppy there is no provision for motion of the lamp (like the KIU socket).. i.e. drop the light will not take the beam out of focus.. 

I agree that smart people can do stupid things.. i'm the 'grand master' of that.. as my brother says about me.. 'your the dumbest smart person i know'.. (quote from iRobot).. however pushing the envelope and expanding capabilities is not stupid.. if there is a 'stupid' thing here it is why the hell does something with $5 in material cost $90? 

People buy $100k cars and MOD THEM.. cost really has nothing to do in this equation, other than.. from a pragmatic viewpoint.. it's a big 'duh' why MOST people would rather spend $2/hr vs $40/hr to operate their favorite flashlight.

primary LI cells do have extremely high energy density when driven properly.. and with the MN20 i don't think that the HDM6 or M6-R would even have been invented... you need to carry HALF as many spares when you have DOUBLE the energy capacity (LION). 

I absolutely agree with JS about this point:



> I just want to suggest that you carefully and honestly examine your flashlight usage to see whether or not primary 123's might not be a better idea. They just might be. Or maybe another light entirely and not the SF M6.


Very well put.. and i will point out.. that i very often talk people out of buying an HDM6 if it's not the suitable solution for them.. i do not 'hard sell' the thing because of the long wait and that it's still not done yet, but it ONLY EXISTS because of people's willingness to take that leap of faith that eventually it will be made and do what is promised.

I don't think it's 'very common' but it DOES HAPPEN (to have a thermal shutdown on an M6).. what does it mean? it really means that you don't have a guarantee the light will work for 20 minutes on a set of batteries.. SF's own solution is 'buy another MB20 pack to have 'at the ready'.. 

Surefire does absolutely imply in all their verbage about the MN21 and the M6 that it can be used start-to-finish without any concern. They 'did their homework' and it is a 'viable' solution but i don't like it one bit.. i think they should have held in the reigns down to maybe 3-3.5A max draw vs 5A to get a more reliable solution. 



JS said:


> Well, Ok. Fine. Maybe it is--today--in your safe laboratory/home environment. But what about in the field, in use, over months and months. What about then?


With exception to the 100W variants.. every hotdriver based light i've made is 1) more efficient, 2) more reliable* and 3) more cost-effective than the M6.. a good mod is not remotely unreliable. My hotdriver lights light every time i turn them on, they work 'til the battery dies.. what else do you need? I take offense to the implication that a modded light is 'not reliable' this is false.

*based on the fact i can run them start-to-finish up to 90 minutes! and that i can expect the light to be functioning 20-30 minutes and also taht i can let it sit on a shelf for months and it still works when i pick it up.. (which you can expect on the M6, but not if you used it enough previously).. here's the thing with low-runtime primary bats that cost a fortune.. you are not going to swap them 'til they are depleted.. which means that 1/2 the time you have less than 10 minutes before you have zero light..with a hotdriver solution.. this almost never EVER happens.. 90% of the time you have >20-30 minutes of light.. and in most cases.. more light than the M6. 

So.. what is 'more reliable'... a light that has a 1% chance of breaking within a year and stops outputting light.. or one that is guaranteed to not have light within 10 minutes on average EVERY time you use it?

I'm just pointing out.. it 'is what it is'.. the M6 is a more useful light with an HDM6 in it in every conceivable way, other than one.. (sit for years before use)... note the plural.. an M6 with HDM6 sitting for a year will be more useful than a primary-powered M6.. the LIONs will still have more energy after abot a0 year than the primarys even if they've not been charged (using 5%/mo self-discharge). 

Stuff will break but SF primary cells also have 'klinkers'.. you are just as likely to find a weak cell that drops your runtime in half as having the likes of an HDM6 break in the field and let you down!

ps.. all HDM6s come with the spring that allows you to use the MB20 pack as a backup which i recommend!

-awr


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## LED61 (Nov 2, 2006)

I would like to say that the posting has been most informative!!! I also like the fact that the discussion has been carried out in friendly terms:grouphug: and that there is a lot of substance.
I am far more knowledgeable about the great light I decided to buy than I was before this thread, and that I now know my options out there based on the use I will give to the M6


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## js (Nov 2, 2006)

OK.

Now there are hard feelings.



> I will back up point #4 from Carpe Diem.. and #6.. me n JS are not enemies, and though there is some 'bad feelings' going on as he aptly pointed out... there are some MAJOR faults in the M6-R as good as it is that make is not a good solution for many if not most people... JS has told me himself the cells he had initially picked out were virtually worthless.. that the '1200mAH' cells were pulling 900mAH on the tester..



This is absolutely wrong.

I would not sell ANYTHING with major faults, and if I did, I would make it right.

The Gold Peak 1100 cells that *I had left sitting around for 6 or 8 months without charging* (half of my initial order) were the ones that lost capacity and which were only giving me 900 mAh instead of 1050 mAh or so (at 1 C discharge). All the others were fine. I know because I tested them.

In point of fact, I tested all M6-R packs I made to ensure they deliver the expected mAh with good voltage. And because I stand behind what I sell, I actually went the extra mile to rebuild someones M6-R pack that wasn't getting the full runtime. For the last three packs, I switched to IB1400 cells which gave me 25 minutes of fully regulated HOLA runtime, and are are a total drop-in solution.

All M6-R packs have bad self-discharge relative to Li-ion but a charge once every two months will ensure a happy battery pack. And if your pack sitting around is an issue, then the M6-R isn't the right solution.

You either don't know what you are talking about, Andrew, or you are lying. Either way, you're making me angry. What the hell do you know about an M6-R? Ever even seen one in person? Ever even used one? Ever heard from any M6-R owner who was unhappy with his or her M6-R pack?

Bring it on, Andrew. You want to go head to head with my mods, I welcome the challenge.

I don't sell stuff that has major flaws, and I don't even let stuff with minor flaws get past me. Not if I know about them.

I could have sold a sub-par M6-R pack (from rebuilding one) I had for a decent amount of money. But I didn't. I gave it away for free to someone. *I don't sell or endorse sub-par or defective products*.

As for M6-R orders converted to HD-M6 orders, I don't know how MANY they were, but I remember sending you a check for a fair amount of money, Andrew. Money I was responsible for. I'm sure you can understand that.

And I remember very well the time estimate you gave me then. And it was not 2-3 months. And I can prove it, Anrew. Here is what you posted on 4/2/06:



andrewwynn said:


> Oh.. almost forgot:
> 
> I've hammered out a farily solid timeline:
> 
> ...



And here is a direct link to the post in your first HD-M6 thread.

But even if you told me something different on the phone (and you didn't) we past the two month mark a long time ago. 4/4/06 + 2 to 3 months = July of 2006.

****

You feel the need to defend the HD-M6. I understand that. But I never attacked the HD-M6.

And you shouldn't feel the need to attack either the M6-R, or SureFire, or pick little arguments about exactly what the original timeline was, in order to defend yourself.

And you don't need to go jogging or stand in front of a fan to avoid thermal shutdown. It doesn't happen very often even under the worst of circumstances. And what do you know about it anyway? You posted about only owning the M6 for a few days and that you were already taking a dremel to the tailcap. What do you know about a stock M6? How many MN21 full burns have you even tried, Andrew. One? Two? Not a very good statistcal sampling, is it?

Whatever . . . I'm done with this. And you just burned a bridge, Andrew.


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## js (Nov 2, 2006)

> With exception to the 100W variants.. every hotdriver based light i've made is 1) more efficient, 2) more reliable* and 3) more cost-effective than the M6.. a good mod is not remotely unreliable. My hotdriver lights light every time i turn them on, they work 'til the battery dies.. what else do you need? I take offense to the implication that a modded light is 'not reliable' this is false.



Andrew, it should have been obvious that I was not referencing YOUR mods sepcifically. It should have been obvious to you because one of the examples I gave was of my own mods experiencing a failure.

You haven't been putting incan mods out in the field for nearly long enough (nor have I) to be able to make this sort of statement. You don't know what the long term reliablity of your mods will be.


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## downunder (Nov 2, 2006)

I really don't understand all the above. I am afraid I am technologically challenged. I have an M6 and have paid for 2 of Andrew's packs. I am sure they will be great when finished and am looking forward to receiving them. 

I actually had a purpose in buying the M6. However, not knowing a lot about flashlights, maybe I bought the wrong light - the experts can tell me - I won't be offended - in fact I would welcome any advice. 

I actually retire today - my last day of formal paid work! Next week I move to a small acreage in the bush where I intend doing the old self sufficiency thing - ie. grow my own vegetables, fruit trees, have my own chooks etc and eventually a few goats. The only problem is that it is a relatively wild area. I have plenty of hares, rabbits, kangaroos that will do their best to enjoy my hopefully plentiful bounty (of course against my wishes). There are also wild dogs in the area that will enjoy a bit of fresh chicken or goat meat occasionally. The land also has quite a few deadly snakes (mainly browns). I wanted two lights to check disturbing noises in the night in the bush. One had to be a close/medium range floody headlamp that I could walk with. I chose the PT Corona (but am also looking at the more expensive Stenlight - if only it had a comfortable headband). This would be my leave on while walking in the bush at night light.

I also wanted a spotlight type flashlight to flash (pun intended) on and off when investigating things as I check the property and any disturbing noises. That's why I chose the M6. It will be used for relatively regular but short bursts for spotting purposes. I haven't got to my property yet but from the few test runs with the M6 it does appear to be the light suited to the requirement I needed. So that's my reason for buying the M6.


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## Carpe Diem (Nov 2, 2006)

Hi Downunder...

First...it was good to read a post such as yours in this thread. A breath of fresh air, so to speak. 

Second...congratulations on your retirement! :thumbsup:

And third...as far as I`m concerned, you picked the perfect flashlight to to light up the distant horizon. The M6 was born to fill that role, and does so extremely well.

Enjoy your new life...and enjoy your M6. It will serve you well.

Best wishes to you!


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## js (Nov 2, 2006)

downunder,

I would second everything Carpe Diem said.

And I would also point out that from my own experience with the M6, the MN20 for all practical purposes throws pretty much as far as the MN21. Until you get your HD-M6 packs, if it were me, I'd first check to see if the MN20 would suit my needs. It sounds as if it will.


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## andrewwynn (Nov 2, 2006)

js said:


> Andrew, it should have been obvious that I was not referencing YOUR mods sepcifically. It should have been obvious to you because one of the examples I gave was of my own mods experiencing a failure.
> 
> You haven't been putting incan mods out in the field for nearly long enough (nor have I) to be able to make this sort of statement. You don't know what the long term reliablity of your mods will be.


Also.. not enough data to say a 'con' as well.. my point is.. no way to say either way really. 

downunder.. i think you will love the M6 for the purpose you picked.. one really nice thing for the M6 is that it doesn't have a lot of flood, so that with it's relatively lower output it really has an amazing contrast ratio of spot to flood so you can see pretty darn far even though the spot brightness is not all that high. the instant on with the tailcap button really is perfect for that flashing on/off.. and the testing with the HDM6 shows it's more robust than anticipated to deal with blinking.. you will not be unhappy with the solution at all! If you want some serious illumination to light up 'everything under the moon'.. you might want to approach a 100W solution to 'take over' that role because rather than a 'spot' that is illuminated.. absolutely EVERYTHING is illuminated! 

I wish i could completely agree with the MN20 comment from JS.. I will say that it is more correct than false.. as one of my primary concepts i've learned with lighting is that the majority of the time we use more power than needed.. that said.. i actually prefer a 100W light for my 'walking around' light.. like walking to/from the car.. and why not? it lights up the path like daylight.. as long as i don't need 'night vision' it's just plain beyond awesome to have that kind of illumination.. it's like walking behind the headlight of a motorcycle! 

-awr


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## OverLord1 (Nov 2, 2006)

js said:


> downunder,
> 
> I would second everything Carpe Diem said.
> 
> And I would also point out that from my own experience with the M6, the MN20 for all practical purposes throws pretty much as far as the MN21. Until you get your HD-M6 packs, if it were me, I'd first check to see if the MN20 would suit my needs. It sounds as if it will.


 
I got my M6 a couple of weeks ago and it came with the MN20 bulb installed. As I mentioned in another thread, the LOLA is plenty powerful for any application that I would ever need a flashlight for. In fact, I have no plans to use the MN21 in my M6. The LOLA has been unavailable for so long that I suspect many if not most M6 owners have never even seen it in operation. I bet that many M6 owners would choose the MN20 if they had a chance to compare the two bulbs for themselves. The MN21 is hard to justify at 3X the operational costs when the gains are not great imho. This is one reason I have decided not to get a rechargeable pack for the light. As js mentioned, one can buy a lot of primary cells for $120. I also do not use the light on a daily basis; my M6 is more of a toy for me and will never see serious duty. I am also not keen on experimenting with aftermarket parts on my $350 light. Now if Surefire came out with a rechargeable solution, that would be another story. Just my $.02.


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## andrewwynn (Nov 2, 2006)

that's a great rational.. and as you came to the conclusion.. if you have enough light with the MN20.. more power to you.. it's a much better match to the cells and is a reasonable power consumption.. The difference is substantial in output and once you are 'used to' the likes of 2000-3000 lumen lights.. even the MN21 is not a lot of light anymore... stay ignorant of 100W lights and blissful! If you use the light 'sporadically'.. even i don't recommend using a rechargeable solution! 

-awr


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## powernoodle (Nov 2, 2006)

Though I would like to have an M6, neither the prospect of spending $36 per hour (of diminishing output) for primaries, nor the idea of a hand-brewed rechargeable pack (relatively unproven, relatively complex, and subject to the uncertainties of basement alchemy) are very appealing to me. I wish I could swallow one or the other, but I can't. I always come back to my good old X10 which, _for me_, has a much tastier cost-benefit ratio. It comes in 2nd place to the M6 in size and shape, but in all other respects is the equal or superior light (again, _to me_) .

If SF would just make a dang factory rechargeable M6, I'd be all over it.

peace


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## downunder (Nov 2, 2006)

Sorry for stealing the thread but it could be too late, you may have wrecked it for me now Andrew. Could I ask you to recommend a good model 100W light. I know nothing about these.


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## downunder (Nov 2, 2006)

I forgot to add that because I hope to use the M6 regularly, I bought a few spare bulbs for it. I managed to pick up 2 MN20's in the for sale of Candlepowerforums a few weeks ago (for $40 delivered to Australia) and 2 Mn21's from ebay for spares. I currently have a MN21 in the M6. I actually picked up my M6 for a reasonable price from the for sale part of Candlepowerforums. I'm finding CandlePower forums very useful.


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## Gene (Nov 2, 2006)

Man, has this been discussed over and over again in the past several years! My opinion and all others will be dismissed as you either love it, hate it or otherwise are indifferent. 

A few years ago the M6 used to be described here on CPF as; "having the sun in your hand". It wouldn't just light up a room or your backyard, it would light up your street or your whole neighborhood with it's beam! When people pay $300.00+ for a light, they will respond with this type of rhetoric.

I love everything I read about the M6 because it is legendary and will always have a place in flashlight methology. It will always be the "sun in your hand" whether it is or isn't.

Let's cut to the chase and just say that the M6 is a pretty bright flashlight but it is NOT "the sun in your hand". Many hotwires have transended the M6 in lumen production but they are not built as well. 

I finally went for an M6 a few years ago and I was disappointed with it's output whether it was from it's LOLA or HOLA. Many others were thrilled!

It just goes to show that brightness is perceived differently by us all. All these beam shots we see posted on CPF DO NOT mean that we will see them the same. I live in a forest with no ambient light at all and all lights I have seem BRIGHT! Funny that the M6 didn't impress me with it's brightness.

If you're looking for a really bright light in ambient conditoins, the M6 will impress but some Mag hotwires will impress much more.

Bottom line is, if you WANT a M6, go for it! There isn't a better built light. If you're going to use it though, you might want to reconsider because very few M6's are used because they are so expensive and always come up for sale after awhile because they're NEVER used in real life. If I'm wrong, PLEASE post a picture of your well worn M6!

As an aside, one of the masters that helped develop the M6 rechargeable pack uses a Surefire N2 lamp assembly in his M6 for runtime and beam quality!


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## andrewwynn (Nov 3, 2006)

downunder.. i've made hotdrivers for people for 37 100W -class lights (some are 50W.. in many cases a better solution).. i only make the light-engine.. up to you to find a host. I will also very soon be selling battery packs.. that's the tricky part actually.. so.. you can find a 3D 3bore or 3D 4 bore host with a battery solution that is either 12AA CBP1650 (quad bore) or 11x4/5A elite2000 and then just order up some lamps and a hotdriver.. you will build yourself a light that outputs just about FIVE TIMES the light of the M6.. something that will even impress Gene up there.

The M6 is just a medium-low output lamp to me... my 2D mods output typically 50% more light and with a nicer beam.. so M6 as nice as the construction is and the KISS design is... (no switch to break even!).. just as Gene says.. is not the 'sun in your hands'.. though it is a very decent amount of light at 500-600L. 

Now that i have the HDM6 operational i will get some comparison shots online so people can see the MN20 and the MN21 compared to the likes of the M275 or the M66 or the M85 and of course just for fun the 44Mag and the M625. 

I have a design in the works (probably won't be out for at least a year) that is a variable output incan.. from 285 to 1100L.. an extreeeemly useful light because it will be 'best of both worlds'.. of a long-runtime (80 min) or 'max output' (20 min).. from the same host.. just twist the head to make it brighter! (similar interface to the BAM! of course!).

Like i've mentioned.. beware of the 100W light.. it's adictive.. my mag85s look like the batteries are dead 'cause they only output 800-900L.. so.. the M6 just looks pretty wimpy in comparison. My 'most favored' light right now has the 3500L+ lamp in it.. 2D light.. balls to the walls bright... about 6x the output of the M6.. and only 2" longer or so.

-awr


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## wmirag (Nov 3, 2006)

JS:

Interesting post. I don't use rechargeables in flashlights because my experience with power-tool batteries has been that they die after a few years, even with little use (maybe especially with little use).

But I am on the buy list for the M6 rechargeable project. I like the M6 HOLA and it basically begins dimming as soon as you turn it on. The rechargeable pack promises to be regulated and run longer. A flat discharge curve is very appealing to me.

W.


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## js (Nov 3, 2006)

I have a good amount of experience with 50-100W lights, including the various Osram lamps, and lamps like the Philips 402158, and also the IRC lamps from Osram. As can be seen from my sigline, I am the co-designer of the USL, and I built the USL proto-type from scratch.

And before that, a number of years ago, when I started on The TigerLight Upgrade Thread in an effort to make a higher powered solution available, I got into all the various Welch Allyn lamps that are typically used for "hotwire" mod solutions here on CPF, such as the 1111, the 1274, and the 1185.

In short, I have plenty of experience with higher powered incandescent solutions in the 20 to 100 watt range.

At first, the sheer amount of light, and the increasing amount of it with the successs of each more powerful mod I did, led me into what I call the "brightness disease". It got to the point where my SF E2e seemed so pathetically underpowered to me as to be worthless as an EDC. I used to feel that nothing under 100 lumens (out the front) was worth considering (for me, anyway).

Then, as part of my consulting work for TigerLight, I had to spend a lot of time with the focusing and potting of the TigerLight stock lamp module. The lamp is a xenon-halogen tungsten filament 7.2 volt 1.8 amp lamp, yielding about 275 lumens out the front from about 13 watts of power. Not much compared to a 35 watt overdriven 1185, and nothing compared to a 100 Watt 2200 lumen 62138.

But as I tried to nail down the exact best focal point for best performance in the field, and spent hours and hours out there with such a "low powered" light, I realized this very simple truism (which though commonplace is still true):

*SOMETIMES LESS IS MORE*

If you're someone who is going walkabout for more than 20 or 30 minutes, you can use the fact that your EYES WILL ADAPT TO THE DARK to help you out. If you blast a whole area with massive amounts of spill light and beam light, your pupils will contract --which, drum roll please . . ., will require even MORE light, and so on and so forth.

There are a number of viable solutions to this:

1. Overpower it. Do what andrewwynn does and carry around a 100 watt light with a runtime in the 12 to 20 minute range. Or find something like the X990 HID with a much longer runtime, in a non-cylindrical form factor. But however you do it, you basically are going for the SPOTLIGHT / SEARCHLIGHT approach. Turn night into day. Light up the entire freakin' field. It will ruin your night vision, but you have so much light it just doesn't matter. This is akin to the Native American saying "White man build big fire and sit way back".

2. Underpower it. This is my solution. I like to use my SF A2 to go walking in the woods. The LED's are putting out a mere handful of lumens. Nothing compared to a 100 watt lamp. But because my eyes are mostly or even completely dark adapted, this is plenty of light. This is akin to the "Build small fire and sit very close" compainion line to the earlier quote above. And if and when I need to reach out and touch something I can . . .

3. Strobe it. A short burst from a long throwing light IN COMBINATION WITH vision that is still more or less dark adapated is truly a winning combination. Even the mere 75 to 80 lumens from my A2 incan high beam are potent enough to reach hundreds of feet in concert with my more light sensitive eyes. OR, using a combination like a headlamp constant on and the SureFire M6 as the burst light would be an even more potent combination, albeit in a larger, two-light form factor.

All types and kinds of people can post to a forum like CPF. It's best to find out what kind of experience they have to find out where they are coming from. Does the person giving the advice ever go out walking in the "outback", in the woods and fields, in the pitch dark, in the country? Or does he use and test his lights standing on his back porch, or out on the street, or in the den inside or something. THIS IS NOT THE SAME AS OUTDOOR USEAGE.

I go for an average of five walks a week, most of them at night, all of them longer than half an hour, all of them in the country, in the fields and woods. And in my experience, *THE M6 IS MORE THAN POWERFUL ENOUGH TO SERVE AS A LONG RANGE FLASH-LIGHT*.

And, in my opinion, anyone who thinks that the M6 beam is mostly hotspot and throw, with little or no spill, is someone whose vision and perspective have been skewed way far to the opposite extreme due to too much exposure to a super large 100 Watt 12 volt filament in a 2 or 3 inch reflector--a beam which is almost equal parts flood and throw.

The TigerLight Gen4 LA, which I spec'd, or a MagCharger, are beams which are indeed mostly throw and less flood (especially the MC). But the M6? LOL! That's outrageous. In my opinion, and going by my experience, the M6 beams, both LOLA and HOLA, have a nice amount of flood as well as good throw.

Earlier, people talked about the M6, and some said it was a toy or a novelty item. I said it was not. But however people think THAT may be, a 100 watt hot-rod hotwire basement modded light certainly IS a novelty item. After only 5 minutes of runing a light like that is heating up so fast that the head of the light will burn you (or your daughter or son). It's got a short runtime, that can only be replenished with an hour or two hour (or longer, depending on your equipment) charge. It's an exhibition light. It's a toy.

I have a 100 watt light. It sits on my book shelf and sees very little "real world" use. I have found it to be useful and practical in certain situations, but I would give it up *IN A SECOND* if it were a choice between that or my M6.

Don't be so quick to discount lower powered lights. Don't be so quick to be impressed with numbers or the bravado of any given posting. Or a negative post. When I was first on CPF, I was thinking of getting an A2 and posted a thread asking for opinions. A very respected CPFer came on and bad-mouthed the A2 beam, calling it one of the worst, most artifacty beam there was--or something like that. So I didn't get the A2, on the strength of that negative assessment. I certainly didn't want a terrible beam!

Later I found that while the A2 beam isn't as pleasing aesthetically as, say, the E2e beam or the N2, it was PLENTY GOOD ENOUGH for my tastes.

All postings and opinions--mine, andrewwynn's, whoevers--should be taken with a grain of salt and a large helping of common sense and consideration of your own personal situation.

I endorsed the HD-M6. I called it superior. I still do. If you think you will be best served by an HD-M6 and an M6 running the MN21, go for it. I only say this:

1. It's not ready yet and may not be for some time.
2. Primary 123's may suit your needs just as well or better.
3. Get a spare tailcap or spare internals so you can always go back to stock configuration.

The M6 is such a wonderful, beautiful and well designed light that it seems a shame to me to irreversibly mod it away from stock configuration.

As for "show me a picture of a beat-up M6" I would have been able to do that before SureFire warranteed my Millenium turbo head, but I can't really do that now. I have a scratch in the body and a ding in the tailcap, but it's not much. Fact is that the HA coating does a good job of holding up to knocks and scrapes without scratching.

However, I know for a fact that Lightraven's M6 would be an ideal candidate for such a picture.

Bottom-line: plenty of people USE their M6's on a daily or weekly basis. THESE are the people who probably, just MAYBE, have the best, most accurate assessment of the light and its merits.


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## TheSteve (Nov 3, 2006)

I love my M6's! I only have and use MN21 lamps. My primary M6 uses a clone of the JS rechargeable pack. I generally only use my M6 when I want a lot of light, so for me it makes sense to use the MN21(If I need less light I'll use my U2) Having it regulated and rechargeable is also a reason to run the brightest lamp, for me anyway.

So I recommend the M6, I recommend it even more if you can find a nicely working rechargeable solution for it!


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## downunder (Nov 3, 2006)

This is a great thread. I am learning heaps.


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## LED61 (Nov 3, 2006)

So am I. I have decided for the time being that what I need is long term reliability with primaries. My M6 will see some serious use but not continuous use, mainly short bursts. I think my U2 will satisfy my continuous use needs, and if I ever do go in a true search expedition then I´ll use my soon to be Microfire K2000R. I agree with js that it is the real purpose of the light. And I might even go to use the LOLA. Heck every light has its use. The rechargeable pack when it is available will cost more than what it is already and I prefer that money going to a K2000R.


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## MarNav1 (Nov 3, 2006)

LED61 said:


> Well guys, all I can say is: damn you all!!!! you sold me on the M6. I just bought one from Mike at opticshq. A beautiful M6-CB:nana: Good price from opticshq as always and great customer care.
> 
> 
> Actually thank you very much to all that posted, it was really helpful and just what I needed to jump in. Did you all know that Surefire is not shipping these with the MN 20 lamp anymore because of lamp scarcity? But mine has one in the package...opticshq made sure of it. Thank God. There are no lamps available so if you can get a hold of some stock up now. Surefire is not even offering an estimated date of availability for the MN 20. I wonder how this will compare to the Microfire k2000R I have on order with them?


Your hooked!:rock:


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## andrewwynn (Nov 3, 2006)

nice post JS.. i actually am far more in agreement with you than you seem to think.. My main philosophy with lighting is 'less is more'.. my personal observations have collected data to support this statement:

90% of the time a flashlight user has MORE light than they need.

MY own PERSONAL use of 100W lights is for walking from a well lit house to a car typically as a passenger.. a 'job' that has no need whatsoever in maintaining night-vision capability so it's just plain awesome to have 'daylight' on my walk to the car... 

In another wonderful use of 'more than needed'.. we went on a walk through the woods at camp over laborday... and we had three or four lights in the >2000L class.. and another two that were 600 and 900... It was quite a fun experience walking through a wide path in the woods in the dead of night and seeing just as if it were during the day.. not necessarily what you'd do every time, but it was a lot of fun. 

The 'right amount' for the job is my philosophy absolutely.. why do ya think that MOST of my designs are variable output!? it's to use the right amt (less is more) for the job. 

My perspective of the M6 being 'spot' vs 'flood' is just based on what it is... taking my M66 vs the M6.. the M66 has a superior beam absolutely.

Go look at the M66 thread here: http://M66.rouse.com and scroll down to the head-to-head beamshots.

I'm not saying necessarily which is even better.. I was actually pointing out above that sometimes it's BETTER that there is not much flood in the M6 beam.. it allows you to get by with less power because of the contrast.. I personally far prefer to have enough flood and a smoother transition.. that when i'm pointing the light down the path... the path directly in front of me is also well lit, not to mention the peripheral vision is well lit.. so that i don't have that feeling like i'm looking down a dark tunnel with light at the end.

If i had to pick between the 44mag and an M6.. 

puuulllezeee.. 

M6... 600 to 400L over 20 min with stock bat... 
44Mag.. 1100L for 27 minutes with the low-output lamp.. but up to 3500L for 11 minutes with the badass '65W' lamp in it.

I love the lower-output solutions and i recommend anybody considering for their 'only' high-output lamp they should get a 64610 50W lamp over the 62138 or 64625 lamp any day of the week.. far more practical! 

the M6 is a charming light.. it's tough as nails and with the stock solution i can't knock the MN20 lamp.. my misgivings are only about the mis-match of the MB20 with primary cells and the MN21 which is clearly 'too much' for it to take in my professional opinion. 

-awr


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## andrewwynn (Nov 3, 2006)

downunder said:


> This is a great thread. I am learning heaps.



what he said :-D This has a been a fun thread.


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## dizzy (Nov 3, 2006)

js: Your post #54 was very well written and very informative to me. You have regained my respect and I hope things will remain civil from here on out.

I edited my post also and understand what you were saying. No hard feelings.

As far as the M6 goes, if you can afford one and buy it, it should last a lifetime or two, at least. That sucker is tough as nails and should stand up to just about anything you can throw at it.

I take mine camping alot and it is holding up well considering all the water, dirt, and mud it has been dropped in. (Boy Scouts are not too gentle with it when they borrow it to find the latrine at night in the woods).

The HDM6 will be a BIG cost savings for me over cr123's, but I use it alot, and will even more once I get the rechargable set-up.

I will probably give this one (M6) to my son, and get another one for myself, so I don't have to worry about when I will get it back all the time.

There have been bears spotted at camp several times and I would hope that an M6 would be powerful enough to drive one away, if you came across one in the woods.

They also rule the roost in flashlight tag, no one can hide from an M6.


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## js (Nov 3, 2006)

The MN21 HOLA of the M6 was designed with Military and LEO and special ops usage in mind.

These folks, at least some of the time, need a light that is small, bright, rugged, and which runs from primary cells so that re-loads can be carried easily out in the field.

In a gun fight, you don't run a light constant on. You flash it, and you hold it overhand, in a "tactical" grip.

So with these considerations in mind, the M6 was made to run from Li-Mn-O2 primary cells because they are light, work in all temperatures, have a long shelf life, pack a lot of energy into a small volume, and still have a decent discharge rate capability relative to, say, alkalines or Li-thyonil.

And with these considerations in mind, the HOLA was designed to draw the absolute maximum of current from the 123s. This is done in ALL the SF incan HOLA's. They all draw down the batteries in 20 minutes, which is a 3C draw rate. The 12PM/ZM actually drew EVEN MORE current than this, but was only meant to be run intermittently, and would shut down if run longer than 3 or 4 minutes, IIRC. It's replacement, the M4, was not designed this way, although you CAN find the 12PM/ZM lamp (N62) and use it in the M4. But the M4/M6/M3T head isn't the same as the 12PM head. According to size15's, the 3 inch "T" turbo head and N62 is the ultimate combination.

Anyway, point is, that _in SureFire's professional opinion_ there is no "mismatch" between the MN21 and its native power source. The M6 with HOLA was never designed as a civilian light to be used to go from your garage to your car, or to sit on a workbench to task-light an area.

In these cases, the MN20 is the LA of choice. And I'll say it again: the M6 running the MN20 on primary cells is my choice for King of the Flashlight world. It's beam is the standard against which I measure all other incandescent beams. It throws, it is smooth, it is nice and white, it has spill, it can be used at close, medium, and long ranges equally well. SureFire damn well knew what they were doing when they designed this reflector, lamp, and power source. A trifecta of PERFECTION for ANY use.

Mag mods indeed. AWR says "puuulllezeee", and would pick his 44mag over an M6. Great. More power to you, Andrew.

Let's just say that andrewwynn's criteria and mine are very different, no matter what he might say or think. To get 400 lumens for an hour from a light the size and quality of the M6, in a beam of such perfection--well, that's MY kind of light.

And, there is no comparison between the reliability of a light like the M6, which has proven itself in the field for YEARS, and a mag mod made here by a CPFer. There just aren't that many of any them, no matter what mod it is. And they just haven't been out in the field that long. No, this doesn't mean that they are definitely UN-reliable. But it does mean that they are not certainly reliable. And in some cases, that's just the same as unreliable.

I pioneered the rechargeable M6. I'm the guy who did it. I understand the appeal of a rechargeable M6, believe me.

But if it REALLY mattered, my M6 would be loaded with primary 123's and the MN20 or MN21, and I'd have at least 6 spare 123's and a spare LA on me, and more 123's stashed nearby.

And keep in mind that I think pretty highly of my M6-R packs. But in a lot of situations I can think of, I'd feel a lot safer with the MB20 loaded with primary 123's. Very impact resistant. Very simple. Very unlikely to fail.

The title of this thread is "Sell me on the M6". Let me just say this: I have very few lights--bwaites calls me the "ascetic" of flashaholics--and I don't like to have unnecessary lights. I get rid of them if they don't measure up. I still own my M6 and will continue to do so. It is one of the handful of lights I would buy ASAP if I could restart my flashaholic career knowing what I do now.

So there it is. The M6 is a *MASTERPIECE*. Expensive yes, but amazing. If money is an issue, a TigerLight is a much better choice. And for LEO who can use pepper spray, a TL is a better choice period. But otherwise? Get the M6.


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## js (Nov 3, 2006)

dizzy said:


> js: Your post #54 was very well written and very informative to me. You have regained my respect and I hope things will remain civil from here on out.
> 
> I edited my post also and understand what you were saying. No hard feelings.



dizzy,

Thanks so much for saying this. I am definitely a hot-head, prone to ranting and arguing. There are days when I am most imprudent and unwise. My people skills have improved since my marriage (LOL!) and continue to improve. But they are far from perfect. Thanks for giving me another chance.


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## wquiles (Nov 3, 2006)

You already decided in getting one, but here are some beamshots to "close" the deal. In here you will see a few familiar lights, including an outstanding alternative to the M6, the TigerLight - a great bang for the buck 

All shots with Canon Rebel XT, 18-55mm kit lens (on full wide angle), on full manual mode, on a tripod.

First against the side of a house to compare the quality of the beamshot: 9V-HP on an M2 bezel with TB 2x18650 custom tube:






TL:





M6-LOLA:





M6-HOLA:






Then against some trees, to compare trow and sidebeam: 
9V-HP on an M2 bezel with TB 2x18650 custom tube:





TL:





M6-LOLA:





M6-HOLA:






and finally, pointed at the trees, but from further back so that pavement can capture the brightness of the sidebeam better: 
9V-HP on an M2 bezel with TB 2x18650 custom tube:





TL:





M6-LOLA:





M6-HOLA:






Will


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## js (Nov 3, 2006)

Will,

Nice beamshots! Awesome! You can see how nice the beam of the M6 is in all aspects when you compare the bottom two pictures against the third from the bottom (TL).

What generation LA is in the TL, by the way? From the bottom-most picture, it doesn't look to be a Gen4. Is that right? If so, a Gen4 would increase throw at the expense of spill. Let me know if you need one via PM with your address and I'll send you one.


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## Topper (Nov 3, 2006)

Great photos, I wish I could do that. I have 2 of the M6-R's from JS and I use them a lot. I agree with the thoughts that if you have a M6 and don't use it much you are indeed better off with sticking to CR123's I did that for what seems like a long time before JS introduced a rechargeable option. When I saw his post I had to get one just to see then it snowballed on me, I have 2 SF M6's so I need 2 M6-R's well I have no real regrets as in strong bitter feelings however if I could do it all over I would have just bought 1 M6-R and bought more CR123's as most of my lights use them. I do use the M6's (well play with might be closer to the truth) all the time and would have never been able to do that using CR123's so I am tickled with the M6's and JS's M6-R.
As for awr's option? I have no first hand contact but I would think if you intend to use your M6 on a fairly often basis then it would balance out if not pay for it self. Hey "guilt free lumens" may or may not be real but it makes me feel good blasting away at darkness knowing I can recharge. Just my thoughts on it.

Topper


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## wquiles (Nov 4, 2006)

js said:


> Will,
> 
> Nice beamshots! Awesome! You can see how nice the beam of the M6 is in all aspects when you compare the bottom two pictures against the third from the bottom (TL).
> 
> What generation LA is in the TL, by the way? From the bottom-most picture, it doesn't look to be a Gen4. Is that right? If so, a Gen4 would increase throw at the expense of spill. Let me know if you need one via PM with your address and I'll send you one.


Thanks  . This was the TL from the passaround that you had some time back. I am just re-posting the same pictures I took back when I evaluated the passaround unit 

Will


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## LED61 (Nov 4, 2006)

OH WOOOOWWWEAOWW!!! thanks Wquiles!! I am so gratefull to you guys. Those are great beamshots and I'm now more convinced I purchased the right light. Listen I tried to get a hold of so much detail on the M6 and I couldn't and then I gotta tell you JS posts have been so informative, you've got such a wealth of info in there, more than I could hope to get from even Surefire. This thread oughta do it in for anyone considering the M6. Thanks so much guys.:goodjob:


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## andrewwynn (Nov 4, 2006)

js said:


> dizzy,
> 
> Thanks so much for saying this. I am definitely a hot-head, prone to ranting and arguing. There are days when I am most imprudent and unwise. My people skills have improved since my marriage (LOL!) and continue to improve. But they are far from perfect. Thanks for giving me another chance.



To me.. when JS posts something that might seem 'rash' it's just speaking what's on his mind at that moment in time.. i know from experience it's never meant to belittle or such.. as he mentioned.. we've had a couple extended phone calls, and i've never gotten a 'bad vibe' in the very least.. I love bumping into JS on the forum, even when it's 'bumping heads' cause after the bruise goes away we both usually end up learning *something*.. 

It was JS's "You're crazy" comment directed at me that ended up having me re-design hotdriver to incorporate thermal detection for self preservation even though it was bwaite's that get the credit for giving me the inspiration to add that.. it was JS's 'you're crazy' comment that opened up the thought processes that led to the innovation. 

So.. thanks JS! To me.. when somebody says something that might seem a bit harsh it's more of a 'term of endearment'.. i've got a brother that calls me some pretty harsh words, definitely meant more of an envious thought than a belligerent one... kinda like if somebody gets an M6 for a steal of a deal and since i don't have on myself i will say 'you suck'... it should be pretty obvious it really means "you lucky dawg". 

-awr


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## andrewwynn (Nov 4, 2006)

oh.. PS.. awesome beamshots WQ


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## lebox97 (Nov 4, 2006)

something being overlooked/glazed over on these posts is "regulation".

the stock M6 and most hot wires begin dimming from the moment you switch on until cells are depleted (or overheat - as I'm lucky to get more than 3-4 minutes at a time on HOLA before shutdown)

in theory - the HDM6 promises 30+ min of full regulated output :huh:


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## andrewwynn (Nov 4, 2006)

That is a key ingredient .. the HDM6 actually is nearly 'fully regulated'.. and will definitely get >30minutes of regulation... i got >20 minutes with 1/2 dead pack.. also.. that '3300' pack actually took 3600mA of charge when depleted.. if you look at emilion's website he will show that the '1100' cells have actually tested to something like 1260mAH at 2A! boorah! 

People who use the A2 know how nice regulation is.. people that use the 1160 hotdriver lights or the 1274 hotdriver lights really know what regulation is like.. oh the 1166 also.. 500-600L of regulated light is just stunning.

-awr


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## js (Nov 4, 2006)

lebox97 said:


> something being overlooked/glazed over on these posts is "regulation".
> 
> the stock M6 and most hot wires begin dimming from the moment you switch on until cells are depleted (or overheat - as I'm lucky to get more than 3-4 minutes at a time on HOLA before shutdown)
> 
> in theory - the HDM6 promises 30+ min of full regulated output :huh:



It's not being overlooked or glazed over, I don't think.

But before I talk about that, I have to say that your experience of only 3-4 minutes of runtime before thermal shutdown is HIGHLY UNUSUAL. Something is very wrong there. Are you perchance using Titanium 123's?

If your batteries are good, fresh, high quality cells, such as SureFire, Duracell, Sanyo, Energizer, then that leaves a problem with your MB20. There is definitely something wrong with it.

Because even when thermal shutdown does occur, it always occurs at about 10-11 minutes--at least all the times I've heard about.

If you're using all good cells, brand new, with a full charge, then you should call SureFire customer service and get them to fix your MB20. Definitely something wrong somewhere.

***

Which brings me to the whole issue of why the SF M6 running the HOLA seems to be the only SF HOLA situation which thermally shuts down on occasion. The reason is due to the design of the MB20.

The MB20 takes a physical configuration of three stacks of two 123's and transforms it electrically into two stacks of three 123's. Thus a DMM will measure about 9 volts open circuit on a full MB20. You can actually remove three 123's from it and still maintain a 9 volt reading if you remove the RIGHT three 123's. The first one is a gimmie. The next one may or may not cause your reading to go to 0 volts. If it doesn't, you've found another of the 123's that go in series with the first one you've removed. Then with a little trial and error you should be able to find the last of the three 123's from the other stack, leaving you with three 123's in the MB20, either two on top and one on bottom or vice versa.

If you like, you can actually run the MN16 M3T HOLA in an M6 configured this way with three 123's. But just NEVER run an MN16 with a fully loaded MB20.

Anyway, I digress. Point is that electrically there are two parallel stacks of three 123's. Now if one of these six 123s starts enough lower in state of charge than the others, then that stack will not be able to carry its share of the current draw, thus forcing the other stack to carry MORE than its share--and also to sag in voltage somewhat. This imabalance pushes the current through the strong stack of 123's over the threshold and into the danger area where it can potentially thermally shutdown, triggering the PTC which will go very high in resistance and kill the current until the cell cools down enough to reset it.

So, if you are using cells that have uneven states of self-discharge, such as happened recently with the Titanium 123's sold by Amondotech, then you are pretty much guaranteed to get the thermal shutdown--AND substandard performance of the LA to boot.

On the other hand, if you have a tester such as the ZTS, and use good brand cells, and make sure you load your MB20 with cells that are all at 100 percent, I claim that you will NEVER experience thermal shutdown. I can't prove it, though! If you don't have a ZTS tester, but DO have a DMM capable of measuring current up to 10 amps, what you can do is flash amp them. Milkspit is the one who came up with this method and it works very well, BUT, I admit that it is pretty scarry to short circuit a 123 through your expensive DMM! Just make sure to do this only long enough to get a reading and you should be fine. Then once you get flash-amp readings for your cells, you can match up cells with similar (and hopefully high) readings for use in your SF M6.

Because, to tell the truth, the VERY FIRST TIME I use my M6 (HOLA was installed), I got the thermal shutdown, and also sub-standard performance. And I was like, "This thing is YELLOW! Why does everyone like it?" I would bet that the cells were in uneven states of charge, with at least one lame cell, despite the fact that they were SF cells. Because I have never had another thermal shutdown on SF cells, without having even flash-amped or tested them. On the other hand, I DID have another shut down on the Titanium 123's mentioned, but that hardly counts in my mind, as all 30 of the ones I bought have now gone completely bad. Won't even power my A2 on high. Hardly a fair data point.

So, with good 123's, more or less all matched and fresh, I find that the HOLA performance on 123's is more than acceptably flat over the run. It's not great. It's not as great as the MN20 LOLA. THAT baby is very nicely flat over an hour run on 123's, all without regulation circuitry.

But, still, I admit that regulation is a nice feature to have on an incan. In fact, I talk all about regulation in my SF A2 thread. But, as I say there, most incans aren't regulated for the simple reason that an incandescent light can still be pretty darned good in a direct drive configuration. In point of fact, I hold the E2e, the TL, and the SF M6 all in very high regard, and they are ALL direct drive lights.

And this is coming from someone who made the first regulated (FULLY regulated) SF M6, and the first fully regulated TigerLight, and who is a huge fan of the SF A2.

I definitely like regulation, but it isn't as necessary to an incan as it is to an LED.

The M6 performs quite well on primary 123's, direct drive. If you find that it doesn't, you might consider checking out your batteries, and/or your light components.


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## js (Nov 4, 2006)

andrewwynn said:


> That is a key ingredient .. the HDM6 actually is nearly 'fully regulated'.. and will definitely get >30minutes of regulation... i got >20 minutes with 1/2 dead pack.. also.. that '3300' pack actually took 3600mA of charge when depleted.. if you look at emilion's website he will show that the '1100' cells have actually tested to something like 1260mAH at 2A! boorah!
> 
> People who use the A2 know how nice regulation is.. people that use the 1160 hotdriver lights or the 1274 hotdriver lights really know what regulation is like.. oh the 1166 also.. 500-600L of regulated light is just stunning.
> 
> -awr



Andrew,

I'm more than a little SHOCKED to find that you have not actually yet done a run of your HD-M6 on fully charged cells! What's up with that? How can you advertise your runtime if you are only guessing!?! This has got to be some kind of misunderstanding. I can't believe that you have taken all these HD-M6 orders (and a good deal of money) without a full round of field testing of the design. I thought that you had designed and tested the proto-type already, with the MN21 at lesat, and that the delays were due to you wanting to change the circuit to better match to pack to the MN20. If so, what's changed since then. Have you really done a full test regiem on the proto-type? What's the deal? Please explain! When I endorsed the HD-M6 I was quite clear from what you said that I was not endorsing vapor-ware. That's true, right?

Please say that's true.


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## js (Nov 4, 2006)

andrewwynn said:


> To me.. when JS posts something that might seem 'rash' it's just speaking what's on his mind at that moment in time.. i know from experience it's never meant to belittle or such.. as he mentioned.. we've had a couple extended phone calls, and i've never gotten a 'bad vibe' in the very least.. I love bumping into JS on the forum, even when it's 'bumping heads' cause after the bruise goes away we both usually end up learning *something*..
> 
> It was JS's "You're crazy" comment directed at me that ended up having me re-design hotdriver to incorporate thermal detection for self preservation even though it was bwaite's that get the credit for giving me the inspiration to add that.. it was JS's 'you're crazy' comment that opened up the thought processes that led to the innovation.
> 
> ...



Andrew,

This is the third time (I think) that you've mentioned the post where I told you were crazy. Actually, LOL!, I asked rhetorically "ARE YOU CRAZY?" when I found out you were planning to try to dissipate 10 watts of heat through a TO-220 case MOSFET.

I apologized for that and said I was out of line. And you accepted my apology. Shouldn't that maybe have been the end of it?

Because, if it comes down to it, and we want to ressurect this little topic, I still say that dissipating 10 watts in a TO-220 case is crazy. I asked one of the electrical engineers here at work, who knows all about this sort of stuff, "Is it possible to drop 10 watts in a TO-220 power MOSFET?"

His answer (I kid you not--Scouts honor!) "No way. That's crazy!"

Me: "Even with great heat-sinking?"

Him: shaking head, "Really bad idea. Might last for a little while, but the TO-220 case is not designed for that kind of continuous power drop." And he went on to talk about the thermal resistance of the junction to the case, and the case to the heatsink, and more thermal transfer stuff which I will leave out of this post.

Now, granted, the Mag100R isn't dropping 10 watts for long, so it's not continuous, and the lights are holding up as far as I know--although I don't keep track of them, so all of the foregoing probably doesn't apply.

But even so, the point is this: if you really accepted my apology, Andrew, (public one at that) then maybe you could see your way clear to not mentioning this so often.

***

On another note, I still am not very happy about your negative words about my M6-R packs. They are like children to me. All of them are numbered. I know who owns every one. I keep track of them just like children. I never packed one up without a momentary feeling that I didn't want to give it up. I poured my heart and soul into making them. They are like works of art for me. I made them the very best I could in every way. I tried not to overlook any detail, or cut any corner.

So, you and I will not be on good terms again until you address your comments in that post. I honestly don't have any idea how you got that stuff into your head. Not after our talks, not after my posts in your first HD-M6 thread.

It's your call to do as you wish, but I would appreciate it if you would please retract those comments about my M6-R packs.

Thanks.


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## js (Nov 4, 2006)

wquiles said:


> Thanks  . This was the TL from the passaround that you had some time back. I am just re-posting the same pictures I took back when I evaluated the passaround unit
> 
> Will



So much for my carefully calibrated eye! And, so much for my memory, if it comes to that! LOL!

OK. Thanks, Will. Cleary shows the TL being bested by the SF M6, doesn't it? I would have expected it to give a bit better of a showing than that.


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## wquiles (Nov 4, 2006)

js said:


> OK. Thanks, Will. Cleary shows the TL being bested by the SF M6, doesn't it? I would have expected it to give a bit better of a showing than that.


Jim - If I recall (my memory is not that good either!), that battery pack on the TL was "used" quite a bit by the time it got to me, so I agree with you that the TL could have shown a little bit better against the M6. Still, the TL is simply an outstanding value for the money and the TL did very well 

Will


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## js (Nov 4, 2006)

wquiles said:


> Jim - If I recall (my memory is not that good either!), that battery pack on the TL was "used" quite a bit by the time it got to me, so I agree with you that the TL could have shown a little bit better against the M6. Still, the TL is simply an outstanding value for the money and the TL did very well
> 
> Will



That would dovetail with the condition it was in when I got it back. It was suffering from voltage depression. I did a charge when I got it back, then a discharge, and the discharge curve was less than great, poor even. IIRC, it was about 6.8 volts at the mid-point on a 1C discharge, and it should have been 7.2 at that draw rate.

That's to be expected on a light that gets lots of charge but not so much discharge, as the light probably did during the passaround.

Makes me appreciate Li chemistry batteries more than ever. Ni chemistry cells demand love and attention. They love to work and work HARD, but they HATE to be ignored or overcharged with little to do. And they hate sitting around.

Li on the other hand, sit around happily.

In fact, part of my motivation in my first post in this thread was from having a couple M6-R packs come back to me due to neglect. The Hitec CG-340 which I sold with some of the packs (as a convenience to people) has a low voltage cut-off to prevent someone from charging less than 4 series cell packs. And so if left long enough, the packs would not charge on the Hitec. I brought both of these packs back to life with a new forming charge and some cycling on my Triton, but I've got to say that I was more than a little annoyed thinking of all the hard work I put into these packs just going to waste. I was thinking "WTF? Why not just buy 123's if you're just going to leave your M6 sitting around?" Hence some of the emotion behind my first post. But 2 out of 40 is no big deal, I guess. It's bound to happen. Life situations change, and even with the best intentions and judgement we can find that we just don't use our lights like we thought we would, and the purchase we thought was going to be so useful, just sits around.


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## andrewwynn (Nov 5, 2006)

js js js 

HDM6 wasn't completely designed 'til mid august.. it went through a lot of upgrades during that whole time.. there was a prototype based on the vONE hotdriver that was used as a prototype and the vTwo hotdriver was a completely new development that came afterwards, hence the monumental delay to bring the entirely new design to market. 

Here is a set of 'before and after' of the hand-made prototype vs the final production HDM6 design:












vOne on the left and the two on the right are the vTwo.

you can see the full size images here: vTwo and vOne

Real-world testing established the run times... but the first operational HDM6 from production parts was made about a week ago and the first run only had 1/2 charge state just by chance and the second run just has been me using the light on/off so i didn't have a chance to run it start to finish yet.. it's all based on tested technology the runtime estimates have been called estimates since the beginning but they are very conservative estimates.. i'm using 3300mAH for my baseline and the cells have been testing to as much as 3600mAH. 

I think you missed MY point above which was just pointing out to people that did NOT see that.. that though you mighta called me 'crazy' it wasn't taken as an insult it's how people actually talk in the real world... and that it was straightened out quickly anyhow. 

'mentioning so often'.. funny that you are reading that opposite of how i posted it.. I was pointing out that it doesn't surprise me when JS would say something that might appear to be rude but isn't meant that way and that if you don't take offense you'll find out no harm was meant by it. I was using a historical precedent to back me up. I was in-effect saying that i wasn't offended and it wasn't any big deal then or now.

The actual quote was:



js said:


> Are you insane? You want to heat sink 4 to 8 watts to the body of the flashlight? Good luck my friend. Good luck. That part of the flashlight body right above the FET or Transistor will burn anyone who touches it.



It's not really putting words in your mouth to say "Js called me crazy" even though as you fairly put It would be fair to say that is a rhetorical comment, but followed up with the whole post in context the words were fitting to indicate you thought i was 'completely off my rocker' (which is not altogether untrue time to time). 

Sorry to point this out but you 'bring on' the 'me bringing that up' if you post an untoward mention in a negative light of me in a public thread to the point that a customer of mine 'warned me' of a negative post.. that it would be fair to point out that there is a 'history' of js saying something he didn't meant to sound mean but does to a third party, and not unfair for me to point this out so that other readers can see it's just how me n you communicate  as some constructive criticism... you could likely save a lot of emotional stress if you just ask me first rather than go vent publicly.. you have all my contact information.

As far as 'so often' i think this might bring that grand total to two times.. i only ever will mention it if it works its way to light from a post that would be fitting as a retort to something you might say that might seem 'over the top'. 

I'm sorry i hurt your feelings in regard to your children, i am aware of the time and effort put into them and i hold them in very high regard.. they are an obvious inspiration to what i work on and i point that out far more often than i make anything negative about them... YOU yourself are the one that pointed out to ME the pitfalls of the M6-R and i've only spoken very honestly about them i would never berate such a thing but it is only logical that i point out the staunch differences of using a 1.2AH NIMH pack and a 3.3AH LION battery pack for people to know why it's worth waiting so freaking long to get one. 

I searched for any disparaging words and couldn't find them though i'm sure i have likely pointed out just facts like they won't run as long as the primary solution.. my estimates are 17 minutes runtime, based on 1200mAH 2/3A cells.. and the fact they use NIMH chemistry meaning they are 'high maintenance' needing charging frequently and me feeding back from YOUR comments of a buyer telling you they were frustrated by a pack having 'no juice' after sitting for a month or two.. These aren't 'insults' they are just raw factual data, don't take them as insults.. the M6-R is the best rechargeable solution for the M6 that has ever shipped in a higher quantity than TWO. It is the baseline reference standard and 'the first' how much cooler can it get than that? People can make a newer faster better light than the ARC LS but it will never be the first. No matter how awesome the HDM6 might be i will always be able to point to the M6-R as the 'leader of the pack'. (funny that i missed the battery 'pack' connotation as i typed that). 

If you can point me to the offensive post i will edit it to be more clear that i'm not insulting your children.. that of course was not intended.

-awr


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## js (Nov 5, 2006)

Andrew,

Your post does not in any way make me feel any better or put things right. Quite to the contrary.

First of all, I just don't understand how you can be so misinformed about the M6-R. I posted about it in your very own thread. I have a link to the summary thread in my sigline.

*THE RUNTIME OF THE M6-R DRIVING THE HOLA IS 19 MINUTES WITH GOLD PEAK CELLS, AND 25 MINUTES WITH IB1400 CELLS*.

This is no theory. It is practice. It was established via field testing. Here is brightnorm's first post about his M6-R pack (#001): The *M6-R*: FULLY REGULATED RECHARGEABLE M6 makes an auspicious debut and you can find reports from ALL FOUR field testers: pyro, catdaddy, Prolepsis, and brightnorm in my threads.

You did a "calculation" to figure M6-R runtime, did you? Well you did it wrong.

Unlike the HD-M6, the M6-R uses a Pulse Width Modulated buck regulator that is 99 percent efficient. It does not regulate by burning up the excess voltage as heat. This means that power in is equal to power out. So a voltage advantage in the pack against the drive voltage of the lamp equates to a lower current demand from the pack. The M6-R uses a 9 cell NiMH pack. This is nominally a 10.8 volt pack, with a real world capacity of 1.05 AH (GP1100) or 1.35 AH (IB1400).

I personally tested the IB1400 M6-R packs and got 25 minutes of fully regulated runtime.

As for the person who let his pack sit around, it was *OVER SIX MONTHS* of sitting around, not two.

So, with that cleared up, let's move on. Again you feel the need to mention something I said somewhere else about something else, that is not related to the topic of discussion at hand. It is a personal matter between me and you. I asked you to drop it. You did not. Yet again you mention it. Whatever you say your reasons are, I do not appreciate it. It is de facto a back handed compliment. Please desist. I already apologized once, but if it will help I'll do it again:

I was wrong about the Mag100R and heat disipation. I apologize for saying what I did. I was out of line. And I would appreciate it if you would stop bringing it up, even if it is in a way you think is somehow positive.

As for my inappropriate remark about you, *I EDITED IT OUT* and explained myself multiple times. I apologize for posting it. I wasn't trying to insult you. You and I both seem to agree on that, right? Can't we now drop it and move on to more productive discussions?

As for me saying "bring it on", I still do. If you want to go head to head with the M6-R, then develope a *DROP IN* solution with at least 25 minutes of runtime, fully regulated, or more than 25 minutes partially regulated.

Or don't. I don't really care. My point is just that the M6-R is by no means out-dated and has its advantage over the HD-M6 (it is a drop-in). However, as I said before, for most people the HD-M6 will be the better pack, assuming it works as advertised and is reliable.

Anyway, you've never even seen an M6-R pack, have you? Stop talking about it. I've never said anything negative about the HD-M6, have I? Quite the contrary. So stop already, OK?

In fact, just stop defending me entirely, please. Stop talking about me at all, Andrew. I don't like it. Your posts seem rather condescending.

Don't push me, Andrew.


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## js (Nov 5, 2006)

andrewwynn said:


> If you can point me to the offensive post i will edit it to be more clear that i'm not insulting your children.. that of course was not intended.
> 
> -awr



Forgot to address this in the post above. I quote the offensive words in question in my post #40 in this thread. That is what I would like you to address. Or prove. I mean, if it's true then fine. But it most certainly is NOT true.


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## js (Nov 5, 2006)

Also, for the record, here is my apology I posted in the thread in question:



js said:


> You know what, I was just plain rude and offensive.
> 
> Andrew, I'm sorry. If you want me to edit my posts just tell me.
> 
> ...



You accepted my apology, and did not ask me to edit my comments. In truth, it would have been better for my image on CPF if I did edit them, but I like the record to show me as I am (or was), without changes.

But even so, as apologies goes, I think this one is handsome enough. We all get out of line from time to time (except for SilverFox--he never does. The model of civility and gentlemanliness.)


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## TheSteve (Nov 5, 2006)

js said:


> Unlike the HD-M6, the M6-R uses a Pulse Width Modulated buck regulator that is 99 percent efficient. It does not regulate by burning up the excess voltage as heat.




This is why I love Willie Hunt's LVR for use with the M6 - its simple, effective and as efficient as you'll get.


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## jeffb (Nov 5, 2006)

The only comment I have = Andrew, rather than "rhetoric", how about "Nano's"??; I amazed that you have the audacity to continue to post when you have lots of committed work on Nano's and HDM6's and whatever else. It is amazing to me how patient we all have been............but I continue to see extremely lengthy posts. (5308 posts, translates to all talk, no results)

Just my 2 cents, as I'm owed for (2) nano's (1) due to a trade.............I was on the hook for a HDM6, but fortunately "found" one of JS packs and I'm thrilled. (January 2005 was when 1st Nano was ordered, nearly two (2) years).

Don't bother to reply............just send something tangible............not rhetoric.

jeffb


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## andrewwynn (Nov 5, 2006)

jeffb said:


> Just my 2 cents, as I'm owed for (2) nano's (1) due to a trade.............I was on the hook for a HDM6, but fortunately "found" one of JS packs and I'm thrilled. (January 2005 was when 1st Nano was ordered, nearly two (2) years).
> 
> Don't bother to reply............just send something tangible............not rhetoric.
> 
> jeffb



couldn't have said it better myself.


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## andrewwynn (Nov 5, 2006)

'so misinformed'... I used the same calculations i'd use for anything i make.. WH of the rating on the cell divided by the drive power and then multiply by 90%.. it's a conservative rating.. and ok so i said 17 vs 19.. it is what i would tell somebody if i sold it because after 10 uses when the bats don't hold 1100mAH anymore as YOU TOLD ME YOURSELF you were having problems with the cells getting anywhere near the rated mAH hence the upgrade to the IB1400s which are much better.. you told me yourself the cells weren't holding 1000mAH and you had to toss a bunch, remember any of this? 

Take all the M6-Rs out there and run them on a Bat analyzer.. you are going to find out that i'm closer than you with 17 vs 19 minutes runtime.. sorry.. NIMH is 'like that'.. it's why i like LION. 

Sorry i failed to mention that SOME (i have no idea how many) of the M6-R have the IB1400s in them..I'm not sure i was aware any of them had the IB1400s.. you just mentioned you had recently gotten some of those. 

I would call that a '25 minute' battery.. so since i was not including the 'improved M6-R' to make it clear i would still estimate the real-world performance of M6-Rs to be 17 and 25 minutes and challenge a 'worn in' pack to beat that... i don't believe that after 10 uses you'll still get 1.05AH our of GP1100 packs.. but it's just a matter of a minute or so.. the 1400s are clearly superior.. my point was that with the GP cells you get regulated output the whole time but the total time is not more than with MB20. 

well.. we all know that NIMH is about 10%/mo self discharge so yes.. sorry you won't have a 'non usuable' light after 2 months that is for certain, especially with an over-voltage PWM solution like M6-R. I was trying to just point out.. that it's not a solution that can just sit around for months and months and expect it to work, but '2 months' is a bad exaggeration on my part.. i wouldn't expect the loss of runtime to suck for more than 3-4 months.. it is most assuredly a 'higher maintenance' solution which was my only point, not the 'number of months' it will stand by.. LION has far far less self discharge as well all know.

you just can't avoid jabbs. you say you apologize and then post *"assuming it works as advertised and is reliable"*... then tell me to play nice.. you take things way to personally, but are very passive aggressive with lines like that. 

M6-R is not out-dated especially not yet.. didn't i just point out that it was the 'only thing out there'... 

I rarely actually ever mention the M6-R.. i have and will bring it up if and when it's pertinent... like i said it's the 'ruler' to compare so sorry you had to go and invent the first best rechargeable solution for M6 but you did so you are the ruler by which others have to be compared.

"condescending... that's when you talk down to people".. (that is a JOKE, people).. 

I really do only reply to posts, based on what is said... so if the M6-R is not brought up or previous mentions issues are not brought up, i don't just drop them on people. 

I know a lot more about a great many things than you will want to give me credit for and you put me in a defensive place with comments.

There are no rechargeable solutions that will beat the M6-R and work w/o losing the 3/8" of totally wasted space inside an M6, so i re-invented the tailcap of the M6 to make 17500s fit in there... with very good reason.. a 24 watt-hour LION pack vs a 13 to 15 WH NIMH pack.. but making a 20 second 100% reversible mod to the tailcap.. basically 60-100% more runtime. Actually.. a 3x17670 pack in place of the GB1100s would be more.. but the IB1400s are more than that. It really is a great solution for the MN21. 

By far the main advantage of the M6-R is that it's already delivered, and it's revolutionary and it's got a lot of heart n soul put into it, i think all that is amazing, sorry if you think i'm somehow being mean by pointing these things out, take some compliments like a man, they are earned and deserved. 

you didn't say negative things about the HDM6 other than just now, you've just made snide remarks about me which you've said sorry about and which i said 'water under the bridge'. 

So.. in summary.. somehow 'cause i used 17 vs 19 minutes as my 'real world' estimate of the original M6-R runtime you were very bent out of shape to make that big post... I always use 90% of the estimated calculated values based on 'rated' MAH for NIMH which are always 'over stated'.. I do the same thing when rating my own stuff.. 

the HDM6 calculates to 40 minutes but i tell people not to expect more than 35.. 

back to 'post 40' issue.. 

There was a mis-directed implication about the 'bad cells'... the bad cells were pre-screeend and thrown out and not used, i don't believe any of those were actually put into any M6-Rs.. that's definitely a mistake for me to imply that they were... however.. they are the same type and brand and style of cell.. so.. just like all of our NIMH packs that die faster than we want.. to me that is a major drawback, but it really shouldn't be read as saying there is a major problem with M6-R.. that's a misstatement on my part.. i'm quite sure that only cells that passe the mustard made it into any M6-Rs so.. re-wording more properly ... MY major fault was mentioning the faulty cells that weren't used as being in the light.. i had thought that some of the packs had already been assembled before the faulty cells were found.. that was a goof to connect the two.. i thought it was one of those bad packs that was the one that wouldn't run after a couple months of setting around. I will point out that EVERY SINGLE AA-NIMH based pack I've EVER assembled has had to have dud cells replaced.. this 'issue' is not new and has been a big problem on other famous projects... i just don't like NIMH cells.

So.. the 'minor' fault in M6-R is relying on NIMH technology. a simlar amt of energy can be found in a smaller and still would fit in a stock M6 using 3x17670s which i would have used had i made a 'fits inside stock' solution to avoid the self-discharge issue, but it's quite understandable why you'd also decide not to. 

so.. now i can understand what made you mad about your kids.. because i didn't re-read before i posted i didn't catch that what i wrote tied the 'bad cells' together with the 'shipped M6-R'.. that is not correct. mea cupla that definitely sucks 'cause i didn't mean to say any M6-Rs shipped with that sad state of affair... but do want to point out the unreliability of NIMH cells, that's the issue. 

Now i have to go downstairs and work on some nanos.

-awr


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## js (Nov 5, 2006)

Andrew,

Sorry, but you're wrong about the M6-R having only 17 minutes of runtime after 10 runs. I put WAAAYYYY more cycles than that on my own personal M6-R and it still had 19 minutes. As long as a person actually USES an M6-R (which I did) it stays strong. The cells are rated for 500 cycles before hitting 85 percent of original capacity, and actually will INCREASE in capacity over the first dozen cycles.

The people that let their packs sit around for a long time (two of them) did hurt the runtime, and did bring it down to 16 or 17 minutes (but going up with each cycle), *but it wasn't because of too much cycling!*. It was due to *not enough* cycling.

The cells that dropped their capacity, that I told you about on the phone that one time, and which you keep bringing up as "evidence", were all cells that I let sit around for too long without giving them any charges. This happened due to negligence on my part, and on the strength of MaxAmps telling me they would be OK for this long. THEY NEVER GOT EVEN A FORMING CHARGE. This is why they dropped in capacity. All M6-R packs have been formed and cycled. So even if they are left sitting around for too long, and go low in voltage, they should cycle back up to near full performance. At least this is the trend I have seen on the two packs in question. In fact, jeffb owns one of them, because the person who originally bought it decided he should sell it to someone who would actually use it.

jeffb, what kind of runtime are you getting now from your pack? How many cycles have you put on it?

As for my "assuming it works as advertised and is reliable" comment, it wasn't a jab nor was it nasty at all. In fact someone said almost the exact same thing in my M6-R thread. He said he would buy it if field testing went OK and it worked as hoped and was reliable.

THAT'S EXACTLY WHY I INSIST ON FIELD TESTING ALL MY MOD PROJECTS.

If you're offended that I don't just ASSUME that the HD-M6 will have no issues, that's your problem. Suck it up. I don't assume that about ANYTHING I make. I field test it. And something always comes up, usually more than one thing. So why would I assume it about YOUR stuff? You explained where things are now with the latest version of the HD-M6, and it has not been fully field tested yet. Not vapor ware, but not fully field tested. So to my mind, something still could rear its' ugly head. I've seen it happen in my own projects.

And I don't believe I've ever made snide remarks about you. Certainly not in this thread. Certainly not with the comment I edited out. I have no idea how much you know or don't know, Andrew. All I can go by is what you PRESENT in your POSTS. Don't go assuming stuff like this about me; you'll generally be wrong. In fact, just the other day I told a CPFer in a phone conversation--you advised him on what bench supply to buy--that you were "a very smart guy".

As I have explained multiple times now, and as a recent posting has made abundantly clear, all mod projects take longer than expected--almost without exception. And if there is an exception, I wonder, do YOU think you're it, Andrew? As I said before "YOU GIVE A MODDER YOUR MONEY, YOU TAKE YOUR CHANCES." That's good advice. I'll give it again and again whether you like it or not, whether you take offense or not.

And I never told you to play nice. I don't play "nice", and I don't mind if you don't either.

I was pointing out that when an apology is made and then accepted by the other party, that it shouldn't be brought back at a later date to be used as ammo for another discussion. Either you accept the apology and forgive and forget, or you don't.

Apparently, you never did really accept my apologies. There are hard feelings on your part. Fine with me. Just wanted to clear that up. I will now act accordingly. Thanks for clearing that up.


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## js (Nov 5, 2006)

andrewwynn said:


> I will point out that EVERY SINGLE AA-NIMH based pack I've EVER assembled has had to have dud cells replaced.. this 'issue' is not new and has been a big problem on other famous projects... i just don't like NIMH cells.
> 
> -awr



Interesting to see this comment. I can't quite reconcile this with your earlier claim that your mods are every bit as reliable as a production light such as the SF M6.

This sort of thing, along with PR-base potted WA lamps exploding, and battery holders short-circuiting, and reflectors bubling and releasing water (it has happened!) and cells going bad, and pedestal melting, and ALL OF IT--*THAT* was exactly the motivation behind my comment about how people like to pull the Lion's tail and show beam shots of their mag mods besting a SF M6, but that it was also a question of HOW LONG their lights would stay this way. How they would hold up in the field, or when dropped, or used in the rain, and so on.

IN GENERAL, mag mods and other hotwire mods just don't hold up as well as a SF M6 does. Not nearly as well--not in general, anyway. You can drop an M6 so that it does a header onto concrete while still lit, and you will most likely NOT break the filament. You could swing it around by the lanyard and smack someone upside the head. You can use it in all weather in all temperatures. It will stand up to it. It has PROVEN itself, with a great many units in the field for a number of years now.

THE SF M6 IS RELIABLE, FOR SURE.

At least on primaries it is. That's what I've been saying all along, and not just in this thread, but even in all my earlier conversations on this and related subjects.


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## andrewwynn (Nov 5, 2006)

it was definitely my goof to incorporate the dud cells into M6-R project, that was definitely a major flaw on my part. 

re: the 17 vs 19 bit.. i'm just going on the experience of how MOST people will abuse cells not how a heavy-duty user will use them.. hence.. 'not enough use will drop them down'.. and again.. it would be clearer to say that 19 minutes would be the normal runtime but that i wouldn't guarantee it.. that you have the confidence to claim 1.05AH pulled from 1.1AH rated cells.. that's great.. i don't trust NIMH that much is what i've said.. it's awesome to get that good of performance by cycling them enough and it is not insignificant to the design using 10.8V pack driving a far lower voltage to help that along, so that's was very cool for that to be designed in. 

In a 'contentious' debate the phrase you used can only be seen as a putdown because it's not going to ship until it both works as advertised and is reliable.. it's is after why it's taking so dang long. We are both in agreement about field testing and fixing those bugs that always come out at the last moment. Phrasing more like "once they have been proven to be reliable" or such.. just like you can read too much into something i say, i guess it's my turn. 

The jabs 'about me' were the 'take your chances for five years' comment and the 'assuming it works' comment.. somehow you may have not figured that wasn't a direct comment about me but both were and not just by me.. you have 'taken back' those two comments but you did first say them. It was also not nice to call something that is just still in the works but has an operational beta testing model 'vaporware'. all those are 'snide', from my point of view. The only thing i've ever said 'about you' is that you have a contentious attitude toward me... that 'we' have a 'history' and now a 'present' which will again become 'history' of having these little verbal battles 'til we figure out where we are both coming from.. 

I was TRYING to point out in this thread.. that there are 'no hard feelings' about what looked like a harsh post from you 'cause somebody thought it was rather mean, and i used an example of the past to show that there was a history of a similar thing happening and it wasn't any big deal, but then somehow pointing out it wasn't a big deal made you think i harbored any feelings about it which is 100% incorrect. I just think it was funny that you got so emotional about it then, and that bringing it up got you emotional again when it was 'water under the bridge'. Since it doesn't mean anything to me, it really meant nothing to 'bring it up'.. i was not trying to rub it in your face etc.. I was really trying to point out that it didn't bother me 'cause i knew you didn't mean any harm from it 'just like last time'. it's not a crime to show that 'it happened before'.. it's not revoking an acceptance of a very nice apology reminiscent of the one from 'a fish called wanda'. 

The modder money chances line.. solid advice no doubt... when it can be applied to a SINGLE modder by the context, that's not cool.

Accepting an apology doesn't mean the event never happened. And as we can clearly see from the past few posts.. there is a lot of emotion in your posts, just like previously which is my point i was making and you just reinforced. I was in-effect saying.. "js posts with emotion... 'see this example'".. now i can say "see the present new examples".. not a problem to be emotional when you display your thoughts.. i have a buddy i nicknamed 'loud tom'.. talking to him on the phone tonight he got so excited that he put my phone's speaker or his mic into distortion so bad i couldn't hear what he was saying... these are the type of people i find fun to 'hang out' with. i'd still include JS in that group, for many reasons including keeping me 'on my toes' and making me think and re-think things that i mighta been outta line on.

So.. 'get over' that i referenced an 'old thread' to point out that you are an emotional guy.. i wasn't saying your apology wasn't accepted, i was merely trying to point out you are an emotional guy so i wasn't surprised.. point made, point proven. 

re: NIMH comment.. my M6 mods do not USE NIMH... the 100w lights ive made.. the ones that use wimpy AA cells.. they have *all* had single cell failures.. in-fact if i buy a dozen cells for such a mod i always buy 13. I don't trust NIMH cells smaller than 'a' diameter. The M6-R has A diamter cells and the IB1400s are incredible cells. 

It is good advice to caution people that if they get into modding.. expect failures.. it's a guarantee.. i think the point that got this contentious was saying it's stupid to mod any light.. there is no reward without risk. 

The beauty of modding the M6 is that.. it is a very well made light and a well made mod can take advantage of its reliability to be reliable.. hold up in the rain, in the field, when dropped, etc. 

A good M6 rechargeable mod will be no less 'reliable' than a stock model with primary cells.. M6-R or otherwise.. But rechargeable by their nature means they need to be charged.. so they aren't the best for all situations and i've said myself.. i would have an MB20 pack at the ready in any extremely important situation. 

So.. it's good to hear that the NIMH cells are holding up closer to their rated value than they could, sorry that the difference between 17 and 19 caused such a stir.. i might point out that MOST people refer to the HDM6 as 30+ minutes, about 75% of their capability when 17/19 = 90% of it's capability.. it's a pretty minor thing when comparing the substantial jump in watt-hours of the far bigger pack, but it's very fair to point out you self-restrained to the confines of the internal dimensions of a stock light and pulled off a helova solution. 

I will point out a big point of contention i have with people trying to say that LDO solutions are inefficient.. 

The efficiency of the MB20 (stock M6 solution) is approximately 75% (9V in and 6.8V out).. it actually probably starts there and drops as low as 60-65%... to me that's atrocious.. but it's a trade-off of POWER vs energy and it's an acceptable thing if you have the $ to burn to pull it off.

I've never done a power measurement of the M6-R.. but i will be surprised if the real world efficiency is >98.5%.. a stunning achievement at that (but lower than a typical mag85 or mag11 hotdriver solution (>99.5% efficient)... where the HDM6 is about 95-96% efficient nominal.. substantially higher than most switching solutions, and most certainly NOT inefficient which is more than implied by comments like 'wasting power on FETs'.. how about compared to 'pissing away $12/hr heating your hand'?

So.. summary.. my 17 vs 19 cancels your HDM6 is wasteful heating the FET .. I goofed to mention the dud cells in the same paragraph with M6-R 'cause they are not related to each other.. 

I obviously rubbed ya the wrong way by using a previous rant as an example to say it's happened before, sorry about that.. you were supposed to know that it was a 'non issue' since we settled that... it was not meant to jump-start another one.. 

When i made the goof to post about the dud cells you should have emailed, called or sent a smoke signal rather than rant n rave 'cause it pissed you off 'cause i could have just edited the post .. not that i don't enjoy having a heated debate once in a while.. as jeff poignantly brought up i have plenty of other stuff to be doing. 

So.. let me know if there is something else i mis-spoke that's rubbing you the wrong way so i can clear that up.. you should know better than that i would 'dis' you or the M6-R in any way.. if there is something that seemed harsh or out of place it probably was just a mistake that could be corrected vs ranted about. 

So.. how about those M6s... I think they are just too damn big to operate with a small hand, so i personally don't like 'em... i think they are fantastically well made and boorah for surefire to machine $5 worth of aluminum and sell it for $400 because it's that cool.. talk about the american dream! 

-awr


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## Size15's (Nov 5, 2006)

As somebody who really doesn't mind feeding three M6's with SF123As I must say that neither of you are giving me much confidence in after-market rechargeable modifications at this point.

It reminds me of a story I heard. Two "Special Forces" units organised a sniper competition open to other Special Forces units around the world and sent out invitations. The SAS sent back a telegram stating "The SAS don't play games". Pretty cool!
The organisers did not get a reply from the SBS.
Sometime later word got back via one of the combined training events that the SBS don't send telegrams. Sub-zero cool!

What I'm saying is that perhaps a certain amount of decorum can go a long way to building respect and a cool image in the eyes of your intended market.

Al


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## andrewwynn (Nov 5, 2006)

I love it.. SBS don't send telegrams.. well i'd have loved to just been completely under the radar.. like i mentioned.. emails work wonders for clearing up goofed posts :-D

ps.. i agree and point taken.. If you want to learn more about the HDM6.. just click the link in my recently shrunk sigline to the 'now for surefire m6' link

-awr


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## dizzy (Nov 5, 2006)

:lolsign: Well said Al!


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## js (Nov 5, 2006)

Andrew,

At this point, I'm sure we're the only two CPFers who have any interest in the recent back and forth in this thread. So this is my last post that will reference you or our arguments.

Yes. You're right about the reliablity comment. I should have phrased it the way you suggest. It is what I meant--I think that is clear from my further discussion of the subject. Although, I will say this: your formulation leaves out of account the possibility of encountering insurmountable problems during the development phase, doesn't it? Or even personal ones which might prevent you from finishing the project for other reasons.

OK. *sigh* Enough of that.

Back to the SF M6! The diameter of the SF M6 body is right on the edge of being too large for the use of a LOTC. Much larger in diameter and it would be decidedly uncomfortable to activate the LOTC. However, it is, for the large majority of people, definitely below that critical size, and can be handled and used with ease, comfort and pleasure.

It does, to be sure, take a bit of getting used to. And you even have to develope certain muscles in your hand in order to comfortably hold the LOTC down in momentary mode for extended periods of time. But if at first it seems a mite uncomfortable, my suggestion is to run it through three or four sets of batteries (or charges if using a rechargeable pack) and practice activating it in momentary mode and holding for at least 30 or 60 seconds at a time. At first your hand may hurt. Certain muscles may get a little overworked, never having been used this hard. But if your case is at all similar to mine, it won't take very long at all before you LOVE the action of the SF M6 LOTC. For the record, my hand is exactly 7 inches long from the tip of my middle finger to the very beginning of my wrist.


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## js (Nov 5, 2006)

Size15's said:


> As somebody who really doesn't mind feeding three M6's with SF123As I must say that neither of you are giving me much confidence in after-market rechargeable modifications at this point.
> 
> What I'm saying is that perhaps a certain amount of decorum can go a long way. . .
> 
> Al



Thanks, Al. You're right.


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## andrewwynn (Nov 5, 2006)

js said:


> Andrew,Yes. You're right about the reliablity comment. I should have phrased it the way you suggest. It is what I meant--I think that is clear from my further discussion of the subject. Although, I will say this: your formulation leaves out of account the possibility of encountering insurmountable problems during the development phase, doesn't it? Or even personal ones which might prevent you from finishing the project for other reasons.



Well having gotten into the 'bit off more than can chew' at least when combined with 'quickly' (or even in a reasonable amount of time).. it does seem like 'insurmountable problem' can be a reality.. however i wouldn't offer to sell something before i get something at least to the point i know it will be solved, based on experience and plenty of 'worst case scenario' planning. It does suck when things go on and on from one problem after another but it in my cases has always lead to a significant improvement. 

I don't mind the bringing of these thoughts to light... but they really were first worked out.. here is an example... the initial HDM6 solution was voltage regulating and would only be optimized for the HOLA.. then it was re-designed after people already started buying in to work with HOLA or LOLA, but the low voltage cutout was sub-optimal.. 100s of hrs into the design, i found a better low-voltage chip, and it was a substantial re-work to re-wire the whole PCB to take advantage of this new chip.. this added several months to the project.. Then when the boards were finally made and i was able to assemble the first board, i found a goof on the traces that has to be patched on each one (fortunately a small goof and actually works in advantage by dumb luck for the HDM6 voltage level).. a normal hd's default voltage is just about 10.8V.. the average voltage setting for hds.. but the goof when fixed sets the avg. voltage to about 7V so there is only a small tweak needed.. Then on to fine-tuning the low voltage cutout.. The chip is designed for 1-cell only.. so a trick is used to voltage-divide the two cells into 1.. and circuit loading really messes with the voltage divider.. so with the amt. of time per week i can spend on the project, it takes another 6-7 weeks to fine-tune that... anyhow.. you know all too well how that whole 'time evaporates' thing... there is ZERO chance of failure of the HDM6 getting done.. but as you pointed out.. there are always little things that come up that need to be bug-smashed and getting them all fixed before delivery does add more time than any of us would like.

Initially the HDM6 tester used a fuse as the rSense for example... well.. the problem is the FET heat heats up the resistor and changes the amt of resistance and dropped the output, making the FET heat even more and reducing the output more.. as you can see this is a 'runaway' problem... grrr.. more updating and more fixing, but the prototype did it job in finding that bug, and the product got better along the way.

ditto on 'enough of that' other than to say i was serious about any other points that hit a nerve i wasn't posting a single thing to upset you in any way so if something is still rubbing you the wrong was 'cause of something i posted you can send me a private email and i'll go look at it and correct anything i goofed. 

----

You know what.. i will concede your point on the 'uncomfortable to operate'.. it would most certainly get easier to use exactly as you describe.. i never use those muscles in that way and that's why it sucks.. i can immediately see what you mean by that and can agree w/o even going through the exercise... you are absolutely correct about the wimpy wrist muscles being the problem not the light :-D

I have always agreed that for quick action.. the tailcap press can't be beat.. we went round n round about this with the design of the likes of the lioncub... man there is no light harder to operate quickly than a black lioncub with a black button at night! I replaced all my black buttons with orange silicone cut to a circle.. yup that's right the silicone i got from YOU... not only can i see it now the button works nicer too! 

I like how the bat. pack is floating on springs.. i'm actually kinda sad that that feature is lost in the HDM6 due to space constraints.. it's only sprung from one side .. fortunately the pack is built plenty strong to deal with some g-forces if dropped tailcap down or tailcap up for that matter (but that's the sprung direction). 

I'm kinda being talked into getting one of these marvelous feats of engineering now that i've been taught i just need to condition my hand. 



-awr


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## js (Nov 5, 2006)

In case anyone is interested in learning about Willie Hunt's LVR's, which is used in the SF A2, here is the link:

Willie Hunt's Lightbulb Voltage Regulators

Note that according to the webpage, all models have power efficiency from 99 to 99.8 percent, and my testing shows this to be true. In fact, I can't show ANY loss in the LVR. There really is nowhere for power to BE lost in the LVR. The FET is either fully on, and has extremely low resistance thus dropping no power, or is fully off, and thus no current is flowing and again is thus dropping no power. The transition from on to off is super-fast compared to the cycle frequency. Thus, even if it were dropping lots of power in those short times, they are more or less nothing compared to the time scales involved in the on and off periods.

It's just as if someone were turning a regular flashlight switch on and off rapidly enough so that the filament's thermal mass carries it through between "on" periods. The LVR is the most sophisticated and effective voltage regulator made for incandescents. And the guy who designed it is a SureFire engineer. Talking with Willie makes it plain to me how much R&D and experiements go on at SureFire--most of which we all know nothing about. SureFire is truly an amazing company and a Godsend to flashaholics everywhere.


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## nuggett (Nov 5, 2006)

Will you two KNOCK IT OFF and get back to work! :touche:   :laughing: :laughing:


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## TheSteve (Nov 6, 2006)

The M6 rechargeable pack I'd like to see uses 6x17500Li cells running 3S2P - so a fully charged voltage of 12.6 and a capacity of 2.2amp hours. It would use the Willie Hunt LVR to drive the bulb. It of course uses Andrew's modded tailcup to get the cells to fit in a stock length M6. I'd also like to see it use zero current when turned off and not switch the bulb current through the tailcap. Can it all be done? Absolutely! You'll see pictures of it when its completed. Not switching the drive current through the tailcap also means adding a clickie switch is now much easier. It will also use a balancing charger to ensure each set of Li cells are perfectly charged/balanced every charge. Taking no current when sitting means you could leave it for 6 months and still have better then 90 % capacity when you need it.

Its because of JS and Andrew(and Surefire) that I am building this project, they have both brought some excellent ideas to the rechargeable M6 table, so thanks guys!


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## cnjl3 (Nov 6, 2006)

I thought that three Li-ions in series would charge to *over *the voltage input limit on the LVR? I also have "one" LVR and i thought about doing the same battery solution but I gave up on it because i didnt want to damage my LVR. Is this a doable project?


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## wquiles (Nov 6, 2006)

According the Willie Hunt, the designer of the LVR's, the LVR3I that we bought from js has an input limit of 16 volts. With 3 freshly charged LiIon cells you have less than 13 volts, so you are way in the safe range 

Will


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## andrewwynn (Nov 6, 2006)

3xLION is virtually identical to 9xNIMH.. it's a perfect mate with the LVR that JS was/is selling.... i love the fact it has the warning blinks, and it's higher efficiency than the HDM6.. good job the steve! a bit tricky to wire 3S2P in that config and i love the coincidence that so is the MB20. I do have a smartpak in the works to supply 3S2P in such configs by adding a center PCB. 

Those LVRs are hard-wired for 10.8V input nominal but they can be modified.. pretty sure that will did exactly that.

ps.. wq.. your first HDM6 is the next one to be operational.


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## js (Nov 7, 2006)

andrewwynn said:


> 3xLION is virtually identical to 9xNIMH.. it's a perfect mate with the LVR that JS was/is selling.... i love the fact it has the warning blinks, and it's higher efficiency than the HDM6.. good job the steve! a bit tricky to wire 3S2P in that config and i love the coincidence that so is the MB20. I do have a smartpak in the works to supply 3S2P in such configs by adding a center PCB.
> 
> Those LVRs are hard-wired for 10.8V input nominal but they can be modified.. pretty sure that will did exactly that.
> 
> ps.. wq.. your first HDM6 is the next one to be operational.



God Andrew, you'd be safer just not talking about the LVR or my M6-R packs at all. You don't exhibt any accurate knowledge of them.

The LVR will accept any input voltage up to two and a half times the regulation set-point voltage, or 16 volts (LVR3 max input). So 6.8*2.5=17. Any power input of 16 volts or less will be just fine with one of the LVR3I's configured for the M6-R project. And if you bump up the regulation setpoint you bump up the max voltage in, as long as it is less than 16 volts.


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## LED61 (Nov 7, 2006)

Is it not dangerous to bundle up a bunch of Li Ions together? I've been reading Newbie's threads on dangers of Li-Ions and mismatched 123's in multicell aplications. How can one be certain you will not end up with a bad cell one fine day would that not be dangerous as hell? Or else you'd have to make damn sure every time you juice it up right? And when you replace a bad cell do you do a complete overhaul on the whole set or just that one bad cell?
Sorry, just curious.


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## js (Nov 7, 2006)

LED61,

There definitely ARE safety issues with conventional Li-ion, especially with over-charging. And packs can become unbalanced, which is why RC people often have separate "taps" on high voltage series-parallel Li-ion or Li-poly packs so that they can monitor the voltage of each individual cell in the pack.

Ideally, protection circuitry monitors the voltage of ALL cells in the pack and ensures that there is no over voltage, under voltage, or short circuit of the outputs.

Because, yes, Li-ion are dangerous. If you check out www.rcgroups.com you will find a whole warning thread on the subject, complete with pictures where people burnt down their cars, or started fires, and so on.

Fortunately, we are starting to see inherently safe Li-ion technology become available. A123 systems is one such company that has developed this technology. The downside is that the energy density isn't up to what conventional (and more dangerous) Li-ion acheives. So for example, I talked with a guy at A123 systems as part of my TigerLight consulting work, and he told me that first quarter of next year, they will have an 18650 cell available, that will be 1.2 AH, with a voltage plateau of 3.3 volts. Compare this to an LG Chem 18650 which is 2.4 (or higher) AH with a 3.5 mid-point voltage (at a 1C draw).

Still, if you look at the stuff on the website you will see that the A123 cells have a fantastically flat discharge curve, and that they can handle very high power and current, and also that the cycle life does not suffer when you do this to them.

Two of the M1 cells would fit nicely in a 3C mag host and be an ideal over-drive voltage for the WA 1160--free idea in case anyone wants to try it. Or four of them for one of the Osram 100 W lamps. 62138 and similar.

The difference in the cells is the cathode material. A123 cells have a Li-Phosphate cathode material vs. the Li-cobalt-oxide of convetional cells. Some info: a Li-ion is often called a "rocker" cell because it trades Lithium ions (Li+ IIRC) between the cathode and the anode. (- and +, in other words). Cells like the Saphion and the A123 still trade Li ions between cathode and anode, so they are still Li-ion, but they are made from different materials.

One problem with the A123 cells is that they want a float charge voltage of 3.6 volts, and not 4.1 or 4.2. So most chargers will over charge them. Which isn't dangerous, but which IS bad for the cell.

Bla bla. More info than you wanted. BTW, I'm just about to reply to your PM.


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## LED61 (Nov 7, 2006)

Thx JS, VERY informative as usual!! I'm glad better things are coming in Li-Ion


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## andrewwynn (Nov 7, 2006)

the 10.8 'hard wired' has to do with the low voltage blinks, i do know a lot more than you think JS. You are the one that said the low-volt blinks are hard-wired and optimal for 10.8V packs.



js said:


> There is no low-voltage cut-off programed in, but there is a "warning flashes" level set for 8.3 volts. Thus these regulators are perfect for 8 or more NiMH cells, or three or more Li-ion cells, although input voltage should not exceed 17 volts.



8.3 warning is .92V/cell for 9 cells or 2.76 v/cell for 3xLION. 

-awr


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## js (Nov 8, 2006)

Andrew,

I can't read your mind. I can only respond to the actual words in your post. What you said was misleading at the least.


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## cy (Dec 16, 2006)

just read this entire thread... can't believe I've missed it. 

or shall I say an unbelievable thread...


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