# 1000 Lumen CREE XML (T6) Flashlight from China via ebay



## atisch (Jun 2, 2011)

I realize that there is a generally low opinion of buying LED flashlights from China via ebay here at CFP. However, as with all such generalizations, there are some noteworthy exceptions. I believe that that the flashlight described here is one VERY sweet exception.

This flashlight, most simply put, is an Ultrafire WF-502B shell with a Cree XM-L (T6) drop-in (1x 18650 battery) that I purchased for $21 postpaid. This would be a very good price for the drop-in alone. There are many auctions for this flashlight on ebay...just search "1000 Lm Cree XML" on the ebay search line. Currently, upwards of 50 listings will show. I won the very first auction entered for $21.01, including postage. It arrived just 12 days later. While I really can't accurately attest to the actual lumen output generated (or for how long), this flashlight is exactly what it claims to be, an Ultrafire WF-502B fitted with a Cree XM-L in an aluminum reflector. I believe that this is an outstanding buy in a high-output, LED flashlight.

The amount of light generated appears at least close to the 1000Lm claimed, at least initially. I found it to be equal or greater than three times the total output of a Cree Q5 300 Lm flashlight I have and about an order of magnitude greater than the output of my standard 3-D cell Mag-Lite LED. Most significantly, it's comparable or brighter than my Trustfire 900 Lm SSC P7 flashlight. Moreover it is a white light, with no obvious color tint at the highest level. A slight blue cast is seen at the intermediate level (~300 Lm) and a definate blue tint at its lowest level (< 100 Lm).

The flashlight has a center (spot) beam that is effective to about 100 yards at night, which is pretty good for the relatively large LED emitter (MUCH better than my Trustfire 900 Lm SSC P7, which has too little a center beam to even speak of). The spill-over (flood) light is clean and brilliant. Overall this flashlight is now my best all-around use flashlight, especially with its other light modes (intermediate and low). It also has strobe and SOS modes, for a total of 5. At 30", the light pattern consists of a very bright center spot about 5" in diameter and a wide and bright spillover beam to about 15" in diameter. The transition from spot to spillover is distinct, but not very sharply defined as is usually the case for smaller LED emitters. The beam is highly functional and relatively free of anomolies. [The point here is that after seeing some people complain about donuts in the beam of a Fenix T-35, one must be careful. I wouldn't say it’s as good as the T-35, but it's not far behind either.]

I have done some preliminary testing of the battery life is on the highest mode. I had fitted this flashlight with an Ultrafire 18650 battery (3000 mAh) freshly recharged with a starting voltage of 4.15V. The flashlight was positioned vertically with the lamp pointing up. The flashlight was turned on high for periods of 10 minutes, for a total of 10 periods (100 min). Between test periods the flashlight and battery were allowed to cool for 5 minutes, during which the voltage of the battery was measured, the flashlight reassembled and the next period begun. During the first couple of periods the flashlight hood got as warm as ~50°C. The battery never got as warm as ~40°C. The voltage of the battery dropped along a gentle curve, being 3.31V at the end of the last period. I appeared to me that the light output slowly dropped, but staying imperceptibly close to the initial output for at least 30 min. and above 500Lm for at least 1 full hour. At the end of the test the light output was still estimated at about 400 Lm. Extrapolating slightly, I would estimate that the battery life above 3.0 volts to be at least two hours on the high mode. Lastly, from this data, I would guess that the output is only partially regulated, if at all.

The Ultrafire WF-502B is a well-made, fully anodized, aluminum flashlight shell that is easily fitted with newer LEDs as they become available. It's dimensions are 136mm x 33mm x 25mm. The switch is an end cap, clicky-type. The rubber switch extends beyond the end of the cap so it cannot be stood on its tail. It comes with a steel pocket clip to which I have attached a spare wrist strap.

In summary, I believe that one would be hard-pressed to find a more cost-effective, high-output LED flashlight anywhere today. At least for this flashlight, ebay has a real winner available.


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## SirJohn (Jun 2, 2011)

They actually sell this and hundreds of variants ay DX, KD, manafont, and others for about the same price or cheaper, so it is hardly unique. (Actual output on some of the hard driven P60 xm-ls has been tested at around 550-600 lumens otf if anyone is wondering, the heat does make the output drop to below 500 pretty quick though.) If I want to go the p60 route, I'd still go with solarforce for the budget light. If I am restricted to that small a budget and had to get an xm-l light, I would rather go with one of the C8 variants at Kd or manafont. The big reflector of the C8 makes much better use of the xm-l output and it handles the heat mch better than a p60. With that said, be prepared to do some diy repair at this price level as these lights tend to need it within a short time frame. If you like doing that, you can be quite happy collecting cheap lights.


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## CarpentryHero (Jun 2, 2011)

The ultrafire is a clone of a clone. I buy from eBay from time to time. For $33 you could get the solarforce with XML from itc. Budget lights are fun, my advice would be to make sure you get good solid contact between the body and the drop-in with aluminum tape. 

I like the Akoray host, and have only seen it on E-Bay.


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## atisch (Jun 3, 2011)

My main goal with my post is to stimulate SOME discussion on the subject of budget level, high output flashlights, say under $25. These lights deserve some attention IMHO. A little skepticism, or even a lot is OK. I'm very new to this subject of LED flashlights and I'm fairly certain that there are a lot of folks like me and relatively little data available. I'm in more for the fun of having a few lights I can afford to buy, to screw-up, or lose, drop etc. 

I'm particularly open to suggestions like the C8 variants. I have one of these and it would be a good platform for the XML. I just haven't seen it available together. Any links to such a combination or where to get an affordable drop-in for it would be appreciated. Reinforcing the contacts on such quickly put-together lights is a very good idea and certainly easy to do. Please continue the discussion. Thanks.


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## Derek Dean (Jun 3, 2011)

Howdy atisch and weclome to CPF,
I don't really have any experience with the budget lights, mainly because I've read quite a few threads by disappointed buyers. However, I think many of those folks bought those inexpensive lights with unrealistically high expectations. 

On the flip side, I've also read quite a few posts by CPF members who've had decent experiences with their ebay and DX lights. For me it's been the hit or miss lottery aspect that has kept me away, that and I'm not really interested in modding them.

Seems to me though that you've got the right attitude, and I'll look forward to following this discussion. Have fun!


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## Fern (Jun 3, 2011)

atisch said:


> My main goal with my post is to stimulate SOME discussion on the subject of budget level, high output flashlights, say under $25. These lights deserve some attention IMHO.



Which is a very reasonable goal IMO.

Wasn't there a budget lights section of CPF before the crash?


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## Moonshadow (Jun 3, 2011)

Still there:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?130-Budget-Lights

No doubt there are bargains to be had, but you have to weigh that up against the chances of getting a dud. Buy two or three $25 lights before you get a good 'un and you might just be better off spending the $75 on a branded light in the first place.

The other thing that puts me off from the budget lights is that they generally have horrendous PWM and lows that are just not low enough. 

Horses for courses though - if all you want is a beater for a toolbox or a spare light to keep in the car then I can see the sense in a cheaper light that doesn't matter if it gets lost or broken.


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## LEDninja (Jun 3, 2011)

atisch:welcome:



CarpentryHero said:


> my advice would be to make sure you get good solid contact between the body and the drop-in with aluminum tape.


+1
Take that piece of advice seriously. The normal drop-in to body contact is not sufficient to get rid of the heat of an XML.


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## SirJohn (Jun 3, 2011)

atisch said:


> I'm particularly open to suggestions like the C8 variants. I have one of these and it would be a good platform for the XML. I just haven't seen it available together. Any links to such a combination or where to get an affordable drop-in for it would be appreciated. Reinforcing the contacts on such quickly put-together lights is a very good idea and certainly easy to do. Please continue the discussion. Thanks.



Just go to KD or Manafont and you will find the C8's with XM-L's with several variations under different names. You can find a whole bunch of info about these lights here.


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## tre (Jun 3, 2011)

There are budget lights and then there is junk. ITP, Maratac, Romisen, and Shiningbeam are all decent budget lights. You will get what is advertised and they will work. The light you are looking at is junk IMO. It is not 1000 lumens and weather or not it will work and how long it will work is hit or miss. The fact that they advertise inflated lumen lavels all over Ebay is shady and tells me what kind of company you are dealing with. There is no way to drive an XML to 1000 lumens with a single 18650 cell. Is may be 1/2 of that at the emitter and less and 1/2 OTF. Shady false advertising at best and blatant lying at worst.

Edit: Solarforce is another decent budget brand. I like their hosts. They do inflate lumen values a bit though on some of their drop-ins but nothing like xxxfire brands and ebay lights.


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## atisch (Jun 3, 2011)

Thanks to all for the comments and links. This really helps me and others get up to speed! I know that some of this has probably been posted many times before, but only some of it can be easily found by searching CPF. Each posting, while it may seem tedious to the more knowledgeable here, is definitely helpful to many each time it's posted. This is the very nature of the internet, new people are jumping in all the time. A lot of it is in stickies, but it takes a lot of time to wade through these. I will do so in time, but some fundamentals need to be posted from time to time.

Those of you who believe--and in fact know it to be the case for flashlights--it isn't helpful and definitely incorrect to claim that ebay is just junk, period. One of my main avocations is vinatge fountain pens, which I've bought and sold for decades. Here, and for many other collectibles, there is a large core of very reputable sellers that sell very accurately described vintage fountain pens. This also helps set a standard for other sellers who occasionally sell vintage pens. So please use qualifiers while criticizing ebay or you will turn-off more people than enlighten. 

I don't know the full state of matters for sellers of LED flashlights on ebay. I've already had some good, BUT very limited experience there. I've also ran into some outright exaggerations. I bought one light, an Ultrafire WF-501B body, that was fitted with a Cree Q5 LED. It claimed to generate 600 Lm, which I know full well is at best, impossible. So I low bid and got it for $10 ppd. I established that the output was in fact no better than 200 Lm and complained before posting any feedback, which most ebay sellers will respond to. I was given the option of either returning the flashlight for full credit, which would set me back a few bucks, or for $5 credit, keep the light. I now have a very good 200 Lm flashlight for $5 postpaid. Please forgive me. I enjoyed that. I had fun. Thanks to what I've learned here at CPF I am more informed at playing this game while minimizing the times I'll get burned. I don't buy anything there for more than $25 and learn as much about the body and LED as I can here at CPF. The only problem here is that there's very little posted here 'objectively' about flashlights from ebay, or for that matter Amazon, where any flashlight can be returned for a full refund, including return postage. I have already made more than one appeal in my short time here at CPF to take some of the Flashlights that are very popular at Amazon more seriously.

Thanks again to all who have so far responded so far.


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## tre (Jun 3, 2011)

atisch said:


> Those of you who believe--and in fact know it to be the case for flashlights--it isn't helpful and definitely incorrect to claim that ebay is just junk, period. One of my main avocations is vinatge fountain pens, which I've bought and sold for decades. Here, and for many other collectibles, there is a large core of very reputable sellers that sell very accurately described vintage fountain pens. This also helps set a standard for other sellers who occasionally sell vintage pens. So please use qualifiers while criticizing ebay or you will turn-off more people than enlighten.


 
I read all the posts here and nobody called ebay junk or said anything bad about ebay. I called the specific light junk and made a comment about the seller(s) claiming 1000 lumens. I know that light to be junk (IMO) and I now for a fact that light does not make anywhere near 1000 lumens. It is true the majority of LED lights on aby are clones of clones so if one does not have the expertise to know what you are getting exactly, stay away from buying lights on ebay and buy a reputable brand from a reputable seller. This is not a knock on ebay in any way. It is a knock on most (not all) of the sellers of LED lights on ebay. There are some reputable ebay sellers that sell Solarforce stuff on ebay that many here have had good experiences with (including me). You said you are a flashlight nweb and as such I would recommend you don't buy any lights on ebay unless you know exactly what you are getting. Don't accept a sellers clam as true. Another issue with ebay are people selling "new" lights with are 3 and 4 year old models with old emitters. Would you know the different between a LD20 with an XRE, LD20 with and XPG R4, and an LD20 R5? A lot of the sellers will just tell you it is an LD20.


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## DM51 (Jun 3, 2011)

atisch said:


> My main goal with my post is to stimulate SOME discussion on the subject of budget level, high output flashlights, say under $25. These lights deserve some attention


Not in this section, they don't. You should have thought more carefully about where to post it. I'll move it to the Budget Lights section, where you should have posted it.


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## DM51 (Jun 3, 2011)

tre said:


> I called the specific light junk


 
Quite right. It *IS* junk. 

Good post, tre, with some very good advice.


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## mvyrmnd (Jun 3, 2011)

> I found it to be equal or greater than three times the total output of a Cree Q5 300 Lm flashlight



You've been fooled twice by xxxxfire lumens. There's no way known that a XR-E Q5 can produce 300 lumens...


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## atisch (Jun 3, 2011)

I never said that the Q5 I mention produced 300 Lm. I estimated that it produced 200 Lm. Please provide the quote.

I also never said anyone in this thread made the comments that I referred to about ebay. I was referring to an attitude I've seen quite frequently on other threads since joining CPF. I'm sorry if anyone assumed otherwise.

The subject of what defines a budget-level light is a rapidly moving target at best. The Cree XML hasn't been out even a year and all previous technology is rapidly dropping in price. That's why I felt that this is a worthy topic. Apparently others who have responded feel the same.


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## atisch (Jun 3, 2011)

tre said:


> I know that light to be junk (IMO)



This is a self-contradiction. Either you know it to be fact or you don't.


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## atisch (Jun 3, 2011)

"I never said that the Q5 I mention produced 300 Lm."

I stand corrected. I did mention this in my original post. Sorry, I thought you were referring to my ebay-related post. I'm not sure which bin that Cree comes from. It may be an R4. All I do know is that it puts out about 300 Lm. The main comparison I based my estimate of the XML output in my original post was an SSC P7.


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## nfetterly (Jun 3, 2011)

I'll toss in my $0.02 - for me - having been to China ~15 times and work for a company that bought a manufacturer in China - QC. If they are doing their own manufacturing MAYBE they will have good quality control. But if they are buying items manufactured for them by the cheapest bidder - then you are getting what you are buying a "cheap" (versus inexpensive) flashlight. For me the biggest issue in reviewing them is maybe a second run is made by some other factory - and then it will probably be an incomparable version of the 1st run. Just my $0.02


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## atisch (Jun 4, 2011)

nfetterly, Thanks for your take on this. Please let me know why the Chinese would have to knock-off something that is now made in China? You don't just move production to China without getting into bed with the Chinese! This whole situation is very reminiscent of the Japanese taking over US technology in the 50's and the 60's. They didn't have to develop anything. We just handed it over. That's history, not speculation. History DOES repeat itself simply because we like to feel that this time things will somehow be different.

Just my own $0.02.


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## trooplewis (Jun 4, 2011)

I have 9 Ultrafire lights, including their cheapest host (501B), a couple 501A's, two 504B's, a TH-T60, and a couple of their AA lights. Other than having to tighten down the tailswitch and lube the threads, I have never had a problem with any of them, they have been more reliable than my Pelican M6.

I'm sorry if they are junk, but they all work, and at night in the dark when I need them they seem to cast just as much light as any expensive light with the same drop-in. I don't know what else I would expect a light to do that isn't junk, so I am happy with all of them. Ultrafires tend to be Plain Vanilla looking, but in my opinion there is nothing more plain vanilla than a Solarforce L2 or L2P. But I don't buy them to look at them on the shelf, so Plain Vanilla is fine with me.

I'm not a LEO or firefighter, so maybe I would think differently about my Ultrafires (and Trustfires) if my life depended on my light. I'm just like 99% of the folks out there who used to use Maglites and find that a nice Sky Ray or Ultrafire with an XP-G or XM-L lights things up like Maglite never thought possible. If you want to call them junk, that's fine. But mine all work, that's all I need them to do.

I do agree that most of the CHinese mfg's totally exaggerate the amount of lumens that their lights produce. Check the power draw at the tailcap, if you are pulling 2.5-3.0A or so, you probably have a light that is putting out about 650-800 lumens. The T6 and your 502 are fully capable of that, but as mentioned earlier, get some foil and wrap the drop-in with it so you get good contact between the drop-in and the body. THe light will get hotter faster, and that is a good thing.

One other thing worth mentioning. What can go wrong in a "junk" flashlight? I believe the only part that could fail would be the tailswitch, which fails frequently in expensive lights as well and is quite easy to replace. So is it just aesthetics that makes these lights "junk" in the opinions of those expressed above? It's not like the body breaks, or the threads or "O" rings don't work. It's just a host, and I don't know what would go wrong with it that I have not seen in a hundred threads about expensive lights.

I do know that the switches in my Ultrafires have been more reliable than the switch in my new TK41.


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## hellokitty[hk] (Jun 4, 2011)

atisch said:


> All I do know is that it puts out about 300 Lm.


How?


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## gcbryan (Jun 4, 2011)

trooplewis said:


> One other thing worth mentioning. What can go wrong in a "junk" flashlight? I believe the only part that could fail would be the tailswitch, which fails frequently in expensive lights as well and is quite easy to replace. So is it just aesthetics that makes these lights "junk" in the opinions of those expressed above? It's not like the body breaks, or the threads or "O" rings don't work. It's just a host, and I don't know what would go wrong with it that I have not seen in a hundred threads about expensive lights.
> 
> I do know that the switches in my Ultrafires have been more reliable than the switch in my new TK41.



I agree that just because someone calls it "junk" doesn't make it so. Someone with an expensive watch could call a Timex junk. It does what it is supposed to do however. The person calling the Timex junk is generally trying to justify their expensive purchase to them self.

However, to answer your question "What could go wrong"...sometimes it's the driver or even the lack of a driver. I had a light that burned out the emitter the first time I turned it on because the driver was faulty. Most of my budget purchases have worked fine however.

It's just a choice. I've checked out various types of lights by getting budget lights and I don't actually have any really expensive ones but now I generally buy more expensive drop-ins so I don't have to deal with strobe modes and so I don't have to wait a month for something to arrive.

Other than the driver a flashlight is a pretty simple thing...tube, switch, battery, driver, reflector or optic, emitter


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## Mike_TX (Jun 4, 2011)

trooplewis said:


> I have 9 Ultrafire lights, including their cheapest host (501B), a couple 501A's, two 504B's, a TH-T60, and a couple of their AA lights. Other than having to tighten down the tailswitch and lube the threads, I have never had a problem with any of them, they have been more reliable than my Pelican M6.
> 
> I'm sorry if they are junk, but they all work, and at night in the dark when I need them they seem to cast just as much light as any expensive light with the same drop-in. I don't know what else I would expect a light to do that isn't junk, so I am happy with all of them. Ultrafires tend to be Plain Vanilla looking, but in my opinion there is nothing more plain vanilla than a Solarforce L2 or L2P. But I don't buy them to look at them on the shelf, so Plain Vanilla is fine with me.
> 
> ...



Right on. I just don't understand people making the broad generalization that all these lights are junk. And it's disappointing to actually see a forum moderator making statements like that. Snobbery runs pretty deep, doesn't it.

Face it - these flashlights aren't the Space Shuttle. The main QC issue I've seen or read about is messy soldering of the + and - connections at the head, and that rarely makes a real difference in performance - it just ain't pretty. Yeah, the emitters aren't always 100% centered, but that usually makes little difference in the beam quality or output. They aren't typically made to the ruggedness standards of $300 lights, but for crying out loud ... you aren't paying $300, either! If your life somehow depends on your flashlight, buy a $300 light ... for the other 99% of buyers, save your bucks and get a good budget light ... or a handful of them

As for the ebay sellers, I have to agree - they are often uneducated on the actual products, and they tend to be a little more "generous" with the facts. They're salesmen. I'd prefer to buy from established sellers like KD or DX, but do what makes you happy. 

On the lumens issue, sellers of all kinds are likely to quote theoretical maximum output. The XM-L is apparently capable of 1000 lumens under optimal conditions, but those conditions don't exist in 501B's with a single 18650 and a P60 head. If it's nice and bright and has the beam pattern you like, it's a winner - regardless of the actual lumens of output.

.
.


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## Nautic (Jun 4, 2011)

I have never had any problems with my Ultrafires. I cant say that about my Surefire with its silly incan bulb.


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## 2100 (Jun 4, 2011)

My Ultrafire U-80 dented concrete, I was throwing it at an aggressive dog. Still working. That force must have been a drop from 3-4 storeys high. The glass did shatter to pieces, HA scrapped off etc..... but still working. You can search for the thread here (its closed however).


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## mccririck (Jun 4, 2011)

atisch said:


> This is a self-contradiction. Either you know it to be fact or you don't.


 
Exactly. tre is all opinion imo and very little fact.


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## mccririck (Jun 4, 2011)

Mike_TX said:


> Right on. I just don't understand people making the broad generalization that all these lights are junk.
> .


 
I think there a people on here with a vested interest in calling ebay lights "junk"...


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## RichMSN (Jun 4, 2011)

SirJohn said:


> With that said, be prepared to do some diy repair at this price level as these lights tend to need it within a short time frame. If you like doing that, you can be quite happy collecting cheap lights.


Fair enough but for <$25, when it breaks, you could toss it or bin the parts. I will gladly pay the OP price snf if the sucka lasts a year, at $2/month, well, I think I can handle that.


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## RichMSN (Jun 4, 2011)

DM51 said:


> Quite right. It *IS* junk.
> 
> Good post, tre, with some very good advice.


I must have missed the "good advice" since tre never defined why the OP light is junk. Or you for that matter. :thinking:


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## DM51 (Jun 4, 2011)

Enough. Closed.


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