# A Little Accident. W/123's and a Peli. M6



## RY3 (Feb 24, 2005)

*A Little Accident. W/123\'s and a Peli. M6*

Not very good at writing story, so I post some pictures instead...

I was at work when this happen. Fortunately my wife was at home. What I can say is that we are lucky that someone was there we are not using the flashlight when that happened.

My wife was nice enough to leave everything untouch for me to do some CSI works /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jpshakehead.gif except took out the box that was on fire.



























**Title edited by Dano**


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## jtice (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

WHOA !!!!!!!!!
That looks pretty bad !
Looks like a couple lights there, 
I assume a 123 cell exploded?
What light was it in? or was it laying there loose?

Did your wife say there was a ban on lights yet?

Glad noone was hurt !


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## Sigman (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

PLEASE POST MORE DETAILS...I'm on the edge of taking the batteries out of all my torches?! Sounds extreme, but I've got torches all over this house with batteries in them. 

Looks like a Pelican M6... 

Now we've heard of this happening before "here & there", but it sounds like it's happening more & more often. 

How many incidents does it take before "big industry" puts out warnings & recalls - I don't know. I'd hate to hear of someone getting hurt or their house burning down!

Please let us know what the "Flashaholic CSIs" find!


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## Robban (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

*looks axiously at his own M6* /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif


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## greenLED (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif
That looks like a disaster waiting to happen!! Luckily your wife was home to stop the fire on time and nobody got hurt. Oh, God...

Are those SF cells that went POOOOM!!? The Peli looks bad, but that other light definitely saw better lumens /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/au.gif RIP. We need more details!


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## BBL (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

How the h*ll can that happen? Dont 123s have overpressure-valves or something like this?


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## KDOG3 (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!!!! (WTF?!?!)

Thats a problem. You should really email those pics to Surefire or whoever made the batts... They may not cover anything since the batts were in a Pelican, but they will probably look into it, even if they don't say so... I know I would!!


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## Vrt (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

What was the cell(s) brand ?
On 2nd picture the door is damaged from outside. Why ? The flashlight's tailcap was fired with such a force ?


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## SilverFox (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Not sure what the light is, but here is my take...

It looks like the light was in the cupboard. The battery (or batteries) rapidly vented with flame and blew the tailcap against the cupboard door with enough force to fracture the door completely through. A little more pressure and there would probably be a hole in the door.

Total speculation here, but that is typical of Li-Ion unprotected cells that have suffered anode damage through high current (discharge higher than around 2C or charge faster than 1C) or high cycle voltage (over 4.2 volts and/or under 2.5 volts) causing a short circuit to form within the cell.

Any other guesses?

Tom


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## dano (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

I'd guess it was a bad battery. Some of the cheaper Chinese made cells don't have any built in protection. 

-dan


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## leukos (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Is that a Brinkman Maxfire as well?


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## GR (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Who farted????


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## cy (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

WOW...


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## KDOG3 (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

LOL! I guess someone should've taken antacid after dinner last night!!!


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## BlindedByTheLite (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

am i seeing 3 different brands of batteries in that picture? you're not mixing brands are you? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif


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## Beamhead (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wow.gif Details...details...details please! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif


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## Pydpiper (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

And to think I keep my EDC so close to my little buddy..Damn.. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
Im glad everyone is OK..


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## stockae92 (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

somebody gotta figure this out

i wouldn't want some ticking time bombs sitting at my house ...


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## markdi (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

I do not enjoy any thing exploding in a cpf'ers home

now I am a little leary of carrying any thing with a lith battery in my pocket.


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## chevrofreak (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

I wouldnt be at all surprised if the M6 caused it.


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## Ophiuchus (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Appears to be Pelican M light and perhaps UKE 2L. Also appears to be mixed cells. A no-no even with alkaline cells.Please provide more information regarding lights and batteries involved.


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## stockae92 (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

would it be a short in the batteries?

does the batteries has some kind of thermal shut down if it gets too hot (before it blows)?

what brands?


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## Brad01 (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Looks ugly.
Pelican and UK 2L exploded...
Possibility of mixed cells
I dunno guys, I'm stayin' calm till RY3 explains.


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## greenLED (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

[ QUOTE ]
*chevrofreak said:*
I wouldnt be at all surprised if the M6 caused it. 

[/ QUOTE ]
I am not sure how the M6 is at fault here. I looks more like a battery short/pressure build-up issue. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif


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## DarkLight (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Lets hear the truth and end the speculation!


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## SolarFlare (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Looking at the pictures I'd say it was mixing the cells, you should never mix cells of different chemistries or age or rechargables that are in different states of discharge. Doing this at best can lead to leakage and so damage your light and at worse what we see in the pics.


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## cheesehead (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Dang, I agree, no more lithium EDC until we figure out what happened.


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## jtice (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

well gee guys, if he doenst reply soon, maybe we should be worried ! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

heh, my light collection shelf is right next to my bed,,, im not gonna be able to sleep for a week! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif


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## Size15's (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

I really want to find out what happened but I feel it is a significant over-reaction to stop carrying flashlights if you are using American made 123A batteries according to the instructions (safety information provided).

Al


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## chevrofreak (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

[ QUOTE ]
*greenLED said:*
[ QUOTE ]
*chevrofreak said:*
I wouldnt be at all surprised if the M6 caused it. 

[/ QUOTE ]
I am not sure how the M6 is at fault here. I looks more like a battery short/pressure build-up issue. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif 

[/ QUOTE ]


The M6 has a POS switch.


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## Mags (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

For those who made supposed-to-be-funny comments, I dont think this is a laughing matter. This not only happens to the batteries that we use in lights, but also with cellphone batteries. This can be dangerous when it happens and I would be quite upset if I was near while it did. Maybe I wouldnt even be able to BE upset if you know what I mean. Last time I think I heard about hydrogen (nitrogen?) build up and bein unable to release all that. It happened in a PT surge IIRC.


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## picard (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

it is best and safest method of storing flashlight / batteries is to keep batteries out of the light. By storing batteries in flashlight. It can lead to drainage of batteries or overload. I always store my batteries outside of the flashlight fully charged.


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## CroMAGnet (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

This potentially serious thread needs a different title. I almost missed it.


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## tvodrd (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Could a cell in the Pelican have been "cooked-off" by the other light's(?) demise and resulting fire? From the pics, it looks like there was a DP 123 and Duracell 123, presumably from the M6. It would have taken _significant_ pressure to blow the tailcap from it! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif (The only _Pelican_ M6 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif I have sports a 6W UV LED and I keep the tail 123 reversed for effective lockout. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif ) 

Larry


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## sotto (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Lots of folks will be interested in this, including the TSA I suppose. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif


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## cheesehead (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

EDITED...


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## Sigman (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

...well the angry & puzzled mob proceeded down the middle of town's main street. Someone grabbed a rope, others grabbed sticks, rocks, and whatever they could pick up to use in defense of life and property. In their minds, they felt they could render some primitive justice and prevent this from happening again! As the crowd started an angry, almost "crazed" chant of...

Sorry, it's just that we've all drawn from our own "amateur CSI" skills and seem to be on the "trail", given the obvious evidence. We need to find the victim or perhaps even a perpetrator here!

RY3, where you at? We need to conduct an interview or get a confession! Don't make us pull out all those ultraviolet lights we own (we've not had any good reasons, other than entertainment, to use them till now!). /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## tvodrd (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Sigman, as I find "jacklighting" scorpions with my UV (and subsequently murdering them) "entertaining," you're right! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Larry


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## JonSidneyB (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Is that battery with the yellow stripe on it one of the old bare cells?


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## cy (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

ry3, where are you??? 

got to know if some of those cells are li-ion..


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## Darkaway (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

In the ultimate gesture of self sacrifice, I'll volunteer to take all of those dangerous flashlights off of your hands. Just PM me for my address /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## cheesehead (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

EDITED...inapproptiate comments.


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## dano (Feb 24, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Sticky for a while, as long as it remains serious, as this is a fairly serious topic.

-dan


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## RY3 (Feb 25, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Wow. Thanks for all the responses and sorry for not replying soon.

I think "SilverFox" pretty much described it all. I will try to answer some of the question and added a little more detail:

- I know the danger of mixing new and old batteries, I am pretty sure I didn't do that.

- Although I will be surprised if there was a mixed band, but I cannot be sure.

- One of the explored batteries is a SF as you can recognize it from the label; I cannot id the other as there wasn't much there left.

- IIRC, the other 2 batteries (Duracell and DP) were not in any flashlight, they were just loosely in the box.

- So far the only 123 bands I used were Surefire, Duracell, Energizer and DP. If I did mixed the band, it will be among these four bands.

- I bought some Universal recently but haven’t use them yet. Anyone know if they are protected?

- We hardy use the PM6. We mainly use LEDs. The reason my wife use it was she can’t find the Firefly she normally use.

- The wife said she used the PM6 earlier in the day to help clean our dog's ears. She said the light went dim after a while so she turned it off. She turned it on again after a minute or so and it was bright again. She put it back to the box after she was done with it.

- As seen in the posted picture, there are 4 plastic boxes in the cabinet. The PM6 was in the far right box (box#1).

- I believe the explosion caused the tail cap flied through box#1 to box#2 and continued to box#3, changed the direction a little, went through the box and hit the cabinet door hard. Like SilverFox said, a little more force and there might be a hole on the door. I later found the tail cap sitting in box#3.

- The UKE 2L actually was snapped into two. The lamp assembly was completely destroyed. I guess the tail cap or the body hit it.

I think that about it. let me know if there is other question. I have more pictures but not sure if they will do any good.

Luckily, I didn't put my favorites lights in the same box. Other than the damage on the door, I "only" lost 2 chargers, 2 lights and few other inexpensive items.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## cheesehead (Feb 25, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

EDITED..AGAIN.


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## cy (Feb 25, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

ry3, sure glad everyone is OK....

silverfox described a li-ion shorting out or a high discharge situation. 

all the cells you described are CR123's? were there any li-ion's being used?


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## AuroraLite (Feb 25, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Dang! Just discover this post and can hardly imagine this happening!

I am glad no one gets hurt, and it didn't happen when it was close to your wife/puppy...

Could someone give a good educated guess at what really did cause this explosion? Will batteries taken out of the light prevent this from happening?(gas buildup?) And is it battery type specific or flashlight specific incident?

No offense to the brand involved, but I did have 2 sets of SF 123 drained itself dry overnight in a G2Z(which are from the same box of 12), and I never did use those batteries again.


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## cheesehead (Feb 25, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

EDITED. Once is enough, several times in one thread w/ a useless, nonsense comment is enough...User has been banned for an unspecified period of time.


-dan


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## Turt (Feb 25, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Hey RY3... did your wife use water to clean your dog's ears? Just a longshot but maybe water got into the light?


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## Lunal_Tic (Feb 25, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Just my shot at a little CSI: If there were loose cells in a box with anything metallic against which they could short; that might be the beginning of the big bang. They could have started a fire that set off the Pelican or alternatively somehow ignited the Pelican. I've shorted batteries, not CR123s, and it's not pretty.

Also were there any scorch marks on the UK 2L? There might have been multiple ignitions.

The Pelican getting brighter after a few minutes off is typical of battery recovery IIRC.

Glad nobody was hurt. Just about anything can be dangerous under the right conditions. 

I noted a TSA comment above, I hope this doesn't lead there. They've already made things silly.

Just my 2yen,
-LT


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## Stanley (Feb 25, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Glad you and your family and house are all ok RY3... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif 

Not sure about the PM6, but I know that my UKE2L usually produces a light 'pop' whenever I open up the bezel. While it may not be the cause, but the pressure buildup from inside the 2L might have been one of the culprits for the 2L breaking in two as well? Anyway, I open up my 2L occassionally to 'release' the pressure a little... Another thing to note is also that Lithium cells and water are known to be a dangerous mix, so be careful when handling them too! 

Hope we find the actual cause of it somehow or rather....


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## BC0311 (Feb 25, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Something very similar happened with Lisun brand CR123A cells in a UK-2L I had given to a friend. It exploded and burned. The UK parts shot all over the room. Exploding UK-2L












Anymore, if I don't *need* to keep batteries in a light, I don't.

I only use Battery Station and Duracell CR123As now.

I'll bet this latest incident was triggered by a defective cell.


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## StuU (Feb 25, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Of course, I have a UKE2L + 10 other flashlights that are kept fully loaded with CR123s!!! 

I wonder if the battery companies have other reports of exploding CR123? Might be nice to get some statistics on these occurrences.......


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## Size15's (Feb 25, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

I recall from AR15.com this sort of thing being reported happening with Lisun CR123As in a flashlight and also with a 6P I believe inside a pouch activated. One had a Z32 bezel and the other also had a snap fit Lexan lens.

Al


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## Hoya (Feb 25, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

I have locked out the tailcap of all my flashlights that I have that run on CR123. Dunno if this would reduce the risk of explosion, but at least I know that the circuit in the light is totally cut off.


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## SilverFox (Feb 25, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Hello RY3,

Thanks for the update. Glad the damage was minimal.

My initial guess about the cause appears to be totally wrong. You will see damage like this when you abuse rechargeable cells, but in this case it occurred with primary cells - scary...

When a primary cell shorts out, the temperature circuit is supposed to open, and if it does not work, the manufacturer hopes the separators will rapidly melt removing any potential and rendering the cell inert. The vent is supposed to relieve the pressure build up in a controlled way.

In this case, it appears that the cell shorted out and the thermal cut out did not function. The cell heated up rapidly and the vent was unable to control the relief of pressure. As the reaction continues, the end of the cell pops off, nasty stuff comes out, and ignition can occur due to the high temperatures involved.

This is not supposed to happen… but as you can see here, on occasion it does.

I believe RY3 should contact SureFire and report the incident. 

I believe everyone should have and maintain a healthy respect for the power supplies we use to fuel our lights. There is a lot of energy packed into that little CR123 cell, and we keep demanding higher capacity cells.

If you are interested in another layer of protection, we can take a tip from the RC community. 

They store their Li-Poly cells in a Sentry fire document box. I believe they are around $25 at Target and Wal Mart. Holes are drilled into the box to allow rapid gas venting. The box is kept in a safe place with the vent holes pointed away from combustible surfaces.

The Brinks cash box has also been used. Once again vent holes are needed because the rapid gas build up will pop the latch and the lid will fly open. The Brinks box is not insulated, so it must be kept off of combustible surfaces as well as the vent holes pointed away from such surfaces. Partitions can be utilized inside the box to try to isolate sections, but the boxes are not that expensive so people are purchasing several, spreading out their cells amongst several boxes.

Our passion with performance and reducing bulk requires that we handle high energy density devices. When things go bad, the potential for damage is greater due to the high energy density.

All of the sudden the leaking Alkaline cell stuck in the battery tube doesn’t look all that bad…

Tom


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## Lunal_Tic (Feb 25, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

. . .wait till fuel cells . . .


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## NewBie (Feb 25, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

I'm very sorry to hear about your very unfortunate accident. Luckily it's not worse. I'm glad to hear nobody was injured, and your house is mainly intact. Thank goodness something easily combustable wasn't near it and burning down your house.

This could have just as easily happened on an aircraft, or while a person was carrying it.

Welcome to the dangers of 123 Lithium cells. Some people demand NiMH due to the danger associated with Lithium.

Seems like a great reason for the public to start demanding protection circuitry in flashlights to prevent over discharge, requiring pressure vents built into the flashlight, flashlight makers to limit the rate of discharge, temperature shutdown/throttle back circuits, amongst a whole host of other things that could be done.

The PM6 is rather bright, so it would be obvious that it was left on, and as you said your wife turned it back on, it lit up, and off and put away, so rather likely it was not left on.

I've seen 0.062" thick sheet aluminum split open from Lithium cells exploding, it was even in an unsealed box, unfolding the box in the process, ripping the aluminum loose from eight screws, sending the cover into the sky, just like there was a stick of dynamite inside the box. Everything inside was black and somewhat charred, like it had been flamed.

Lithium Cells are something that should not be taken lightly. As they become more popular, events like this seem to be happening way too often.

Notice how the vent didn't work very well on one of the cells, and how the top case seal is rolled open, blasting it's contents out of the cell. Rather ***Violent***.

BTW, that piece of wrapper up in the top right corner with the red showing through it, sure looks like a <font color="red">*SureFire* </font> cell wrapper...


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## SolarFlare (Feb 25, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Having read ry3's update and in particular that the light dimmed,was left and then used again could suggest a force discharge, the voltage of the battery will be forced below its design capability this can lead to leakage or rapid venting. Also exhausted batteries should never be left in equipment as they are much more prone to leakage than unused batteries, I assume the light was plonked back in the cupboard once the batteries packed in.


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## sniper (Feb 25, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. W/123\'s and a Peli. M6*

RY3:
Everybody is O.K, and that is good! 
I think that the lights need to be shipped to the manufacturers, with an explanation of what happened.

They may not tell you what happened, even if they know, but with the lifetime warranties from both companies, you may get new lights. It is worth a try. Those things are EXPEN$IVE!

It would be nice to get an explanation, but with litigation the way it is, unlikely. 

We have lots of expertise here on the forums, but the people that make the things have (hopefully) the ways to find out what happened, and need to know about things like this. 

My own thought is that perhaps your loosely-stored batteries may have shorted, overheated, and set the whole chain off. possibly fueled by a small hydrogen discharge. Be safe, and let us know what the results are.


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## newo (Feb 25, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

[ QUOTE ]
*SilverFox said:*
If you are interested in another layer of protection, we can take a tip from the RC community. 

They store their Li-Poly cells in a Sentry fire document box. I believe they are around $25 at Target and Wal Mart. Holes are drilled into the box to allow rapid gas venting. The box is kept in a safe place with the vent holes pointed away from combustible surfaces.

The Brinks cash box has also been used. Once again vent holes are needed because the rapid gas build up will pop the latch and the lid will fly open. The Brinks box is not insulated, so it must be kept off of combustible surfaces as well as the vent holes pointed away from such surfaces. Partitions can be utilized inside the box to try to isolate sections, but the boxes are not that expensive so people are purchasing several, spreading out their cells amongst several boxes.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is an outstanding piece of practical advice. And, since I happen to have an unused Sentry fire box lying around here somewhere, it is advice I plan on following this very day. 

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thanks.gif


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## Lightbringer (Feb 25, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

i'm wondering about the venting for the for the senty boxes? I have i think three boxes of batterystation cr123s in pelican boxes. does the purge valve serve double as a gas release if internal pressure is too great? is it even safe to use pelican cases for batteries now?


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## AnotherDaveH (Feb 25, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Apologies if this has been answered above, but did the batteries in question explode, or was there a gas build-up contained by a gas-tight light until it suffered a catastrophic failure? Would a few small holes drilled into the PM6 body under the decorative O-rings vent any build-up quickly enough? This would, I think, leave it water resistant enough for most purposes, but not sealed.


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## Mags (Feb 25, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

I think these kind of accidents might encourage manufacturers to start designing their lights so that they might be vented in some way. That would be quite a challenge though.

Edit: My LongBow Micra smells like the common lithium battery smell whenever I open it up. It pops too, but I think that is because of the orings on the body. Should I open it periodically? Currently my parents took away my lights and I dont know where they are, but I asked to have them back so that I could take the batteries out.


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## beezaur (Feb 25, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

". . . force discharge, the voltage of the battery will be forced below its design capability this can lead to leakage or rapid venting. . ."

Ok, for this poor dum civil engineer, who understands only earth, wind, fire, and water, could somebody please explain or point me to a good resource? I had no idea batteries had such involved construction.

Scott


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## Mags (Feb 25, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Sort of agreed with bee. I have a websters college dictionary next to the computer as I read this.


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## Stanley (Feb 25, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Silverfox, thanks for your very good and sound advice too. We should never take anything for granted... even if its just a small, tiny fella that holds up to 3Vs of power... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif


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## Beamhead (Feb 25, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

I would call this suggested reading, from the enlargement of the photo in Newbies post, the cell with the rolled open top appears to have had the cell inside the case become a 'projectile"! Scary stuff....that is a solid Oak raised panel that was almost blasted threw.
I am glad no one was injured. This could have been much worse.


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## beezaur (Feb 25, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Wow! Great info, Beamhead.

Speaking of batteries and fire hazards, don't forget to check your smoke alarm.

Fires can be surprisingly quiet as they fill a house with fumes. When those warm fumes get down to the level at which the occupants sleep, it "keeps them from waking up." Very few people actually burn to death in fires. They usually get poisoned by the incredibly toxic fumes in smoke.

Scott


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## StuU (Feb 25, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

[ QUOTE ]
*SolarFlare said:*
Also exhausted batteries should never be left in equipment as they are much more prone to leakage than unused batteries, I assume the light was plonked back in the cupboard once the batteries packed in. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm.....many flashlight enthusiasts run their 123 xenon lights down to a yellow beam and then put the 2/3 dead batteries into an Inova X5 till the batts totally die. This might be dangerous?

Another important point here is that the two occasions of exploded lights involved UKE2Ls. In RY3's pictures, the UKE2L was totally blasted apart. This very likely indicated that it was this light that exploded and somehow set off the Pelican light. It is difficult to see how an exploding Pelican could set off a tight, solid light like the UKE2L. 

I have looked at my UKE2L thoroughly to try and understand if this light has faulty design. The only aspect of this light that appears suspicious is the negative contact strip- which is basically a spring wire that protrudes slightly above the plastic channel and into the battery space. Could this wire rub through the 123 plastic and short out? With the xenon module, this thin wire could get *extremely* hot and easily short into the 123 insulation.......??

Surefire lithium-powered flashlights are marketed and used intensely in many different places and for many different purposes. And I can't remember every hearing about any lithium Surefire light exploding even with all the countless hours that these lights are used around the world.


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## Sway (Feb 25, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Wal-Mart has the Senty 1100 Firesafe Chest on sale this week $17.84, I just picked one up to store my Li cells in. Guess it's time to drill some blow out holes and find a safe place to keep it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif

Later
Kelly


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## batterystation (Feb 25, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

My guess on this would be that the light somehow got turned on and one of the cells was dead and the other discharged through it causing serious heat and gassing (normal for the battery) but the pressure finally caused the threads to give way on the light. Not the fault of the light IMO.

One of the tests we do here with all sorts of batteries is to clamp them in a vice under a protective shield to try and get them to explode. They vent, hiss, leak, get real hot, but none have exploded yet. Hydrogen gas might have been sparked to further the explosion too.


----------



## mike2004 (Feb 25, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

[ QUOTE ]
*batterystation said:*
One of the tests we do here with all sorts of batteries is to clamp them in a vice under a protective shield to try and get them to explode. They vent, hiss, leak, get real hot, but none have exploded yet. Hydrogen gas might have been sparked to further the explosion too. 

[/ QUOTE ]

How exactly do you short them out Kevin?


----------



## tvodrd (Feb 25, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

I will go with StuU's theory of the UKE2L being responsible for starting the fire RY3 said his wife removed, and the side conductor failure mechanism. It would have also required the failure of the over temp safety (if any) in the shorted cell. The resulting fire could have "cooked-off" a cell in the unvented PM6. From experience, a "cooked-off" 123 will vent a lot of gas in a hurry, and sometimes blow the crimp. Unlike Li Ion cells, I don't believe there is an issue with "over discharging" 123's. (Shorting them is another story!)

Larry


----------



## greenLED (Feb 25, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

It'd be interesting to see your setup, Kevin, if at all possible. I'm curious to see how you torture cells so we get safer products.


----------



## cobb (Feb 25, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Glad I got to the details on page 5. I am surprised no one locked it for further detail as it read like a urban legend you see on the net, like a fun photo. 

I have a 19 led trek led light with the aluminum housing from the ccrane company. It uses 3 c cells and when I open it I get a pop sound and one day when a cell was leaking fluid inside, the lens popped off in my hand as I was unscrewing it. I was glad it did not split the lens. 

I have to agree with the hydrogen gas generation and the cell ignighting it. Ive thrown regular batteries in fires and they are no where as loud or much of a bang compared to a can of lighter fluid. Ive never threw a cr123 into a fire to see the results.


----------



## RY3 (Feb 25, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Here are few more photos if anyone interested.

I am not sure if the cause was started from the 2L as some of you suggested. First of all, there is no such indication from the body. 

Secondly, I only found 4 CR123 batteries in the boxes. The two that exploded are definitely in the PM6 as this is the only way (IMO) that will caused the tail cap to fly. The other two (Duracell and DP) only have minor burn on the outside.

You will noticed a Pila charger in the picture. I have two 168S that I use in our L4 and KL1. I also have a few 1/5A batteries loosely in the box but none of them have any damage indication neither.



























link due to size

Please do not post pics larger than 800 pixels wide.
TIA,
[email protected]


----------



## BC0311 (Feb 25, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

That DP Cell looks like it might be made by the same people that made the Lisun cell that failed in my friend's UKE-2L.

My friend's UKE-2L was burned but didn't break apart, the polymer threading was overwhelmed and it blew apart.

I think that the DP cell in your PM6 was faulty, shorted and overheated and that the aluminum body and tailcap threading resisted long enough for the pressure to build up a lot more than it did in my friend's UKE-2L.

This would account for much greater velocity when it did blow apart and launched the tail cap and rear most battery with enough energy to break your UKE-2L apart. The intense heat could have cooked off another battery.

WARNING: Handloaders of ammunition know this. Cartridge propellants come in containers that are designed to rupture and vent with little increase of internal pressure.

In the military, we stowed volatiles, like paint and petroleum based cleaners, outdoors in vented steel lockers. You don't want a strong, airtight metal container. It's what turns a fire into an explosion.


----------



## chmsam (Feb 25, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Btw, off topic, but if it were me, I'd toss out the dog food and anything else edible by man or beast in the cabinet. It's probably contaminated.

What is life without a little excitement, right?

Glad everyone is OK.


----------



## mike2004 (Feb 25, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

If I recall correctly, in talking with a local Surefire dealer and with a Surefire customer service rep REGARDING my conversation with my local dealer, the white battery with the yellow ring was on some notice SF recieved that indicated that this type of battery had exploded in someones luggage at an airport security checkpoint.


----------



## StuU (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

RY3, thanks for the extra photos. 

Again, that UKE2L appears to be blown apart from the inside. The whole threaded section is cleanly separated from the main body.

I compared the 2L in the photo with my own intact 2L. It seems that this threaded section is *very* solid and is one-piece molded to the main light body. Doesn't look like it was penetrated from the outside- especially with two hefty O-rings in the center of the threaded section. This light was cleanly separated at the base of the threads and apparently from a lot of internal pressure IMHO. 

It would be really interesting to see how one exploding lithium light would penetrate and blow-off a nearby lithium light...
Stu


----------



## Stanley (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

The tail end of the 2L looks burnt/melted with a hole on it. Could the fire have started from outside, i.e. one of the burning cells landed on the tail end of the 2L and the heat melted the tail and subsequently pressure built up on the tail end caused the whole light to pop thru the front? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif


----------



## SilverFox (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Hello RY3,

I have been reading up on Li-Ion failures. It seems that when Li-Poly cells vent, the powdery substance is corrosive.

I do not know if the same is true of Li-Ion cells, but you might want to treat it as corrosive. I would make it a point to wipe everything down and then treat it with a silicon cloth or something else to prevent corrosive attack.

I have heard of RC Airplane controllers and electronics failing a short time after being in the presence of a battery fire due to corrosion effects.

Is there any signs of residue? You should take a good look at your voltmeter, flash, and the Pila charger to make sure they are OK.

Tom


----------



## NewBie (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

[ QUOTE ]
*StuU said:*
Surefire lithium-powered flashlights are marketed and used intensely in many different places and for many different purposes. And I can't remember every hearing about any lithium Surefire light exploding even with all the countless hours that these lights are used around the world. 

[/ QUOTE ]


Of course, there is not a place for a person to get this information, so the lack of hearing is quite probably a lack of communication.

This is not the first SureFire related detonation/fire/explosion of a 123 cell.

If you dig, there is a story around here about a Nuclear plant that issued SureFire lights. After the wall locker burned, they pulled all SureFire lights from use. And this is not the only case....

I think this was it:
SureFire G2 123 cell fires and more 



It takes quite a bit of digging to find other reports, but here is another example:

The Flight Attendant had purchased the flashlight from a
store in Beijing. While the flashlight was turned on, the
passenger accidentally dropped the flashlight. A few
minutes later, while the flashlight was stored in a seat
pocket, the flashlight began emitting smoke and noxious
fumes. The flashlight became hot enough that it could
only be handled with oven mitts.

The airline reports that this is the second time a LED
flashlight, purchased in Beijing, has failed in this
manner. The first time it occurred, the flashlight was
being used at the home of an employee.
*HAZARD*
Consequently, as a safety precaution, we recommend
that flashlights with LED lights and 3 volt lithium
batteries not be transported in aircraft carry-on or
checked baggage.

http://www.haffa.com.hk/files/DG%20LED%20Flashlight%20Warning.pdf

More stuff:
http://www.interfire.org/features/recallview.asp?date=02092004

http://www.batteriesdigest.com/safety.htm

http://www.newsnet5.com/consumeralert/2510994/detail.html

The end of this page from the Pelican website:
"An additional safety related attribute of Pelican flashlights is the built in patented hydrogen purge valve that allows explosive gases to harmlessly leave the battery

compartments. In addition to this patented safety feature, pellets have been encapsulated into every Pelican flashlight. These tiny catalyst pellets combine outgasing hydrogen discharging from batteries with ambient air trapped inside all flashlights, changing the mixture to harmless water droplets. This serves as an additional &#8220;backup&#8221; fail-safe not found in other lights. Battery powered flashlights are potentially dangerous due to the hydrogen gas given off by over heated battery cells exploding as the unit is turned on. 

This has resulted in occasions where the flashlight can explode, causing bodily harm. To combat this potentially dangerous situation, Pelican flashlights now incorporate a special one-way valve that allows small amounts of hydrogen gas to harmlessly escape, yet prevents the ingress of ambient explosive gases.

All federal and nationally accredited approval agencies now recognize this potential hazard and have set specific test procedures to ensure that these flashlights are not susceptible to self igniting explosions. Many popular competitive brands have still not incorporated these safety features into their products."

http://www.pelican-cases-flashlights.com/flashlights-chart-selector.htm


----------



## BC0311 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

[ QUOTE ]
*NewBie said:*
This is not the first SureFire related detonation/fire/explosion of a 123 cell.

If you dig, there is a story around here about a Nuclear plant that issued SureFire lights. After the wall locker burned, they pulled all SureFire lights from use. And this is not the only case.... 

[/ QUOTE ]

I wonder how many after reading this thread are going to look a little differently at that 2x123 next to their head on the nightstand. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yellowlaugh.gif

[ QUOTE ]
*Stanley said* 

Could the fire have started from outside, i.e. one of the burning cells landed on the tail end of the 2L and the heat melted the tail and subsequently pressure built up on the tail end caused the whole light to pop thru the front? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif 

[/ QUOTE ] 

That sounds more plausible to me than the tailcap "gunshot" idea. Same here /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif 

Britt


----------



## NewBie (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

The tail end of the Pelican M6 looks too messed up and blackened for that Britt.


----------



## KevinL (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

[ QUOTE ]
*BC0311 said:*
I wonder how many after reading this thread are going to look a little differently at that 2x123 next to their head on the nightstand. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yellowlaugh.gif

[ QUOTE ]
*Stanley said* 

For some reason I feel lucky mine is 3x NiMH /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif (currently the job of the Mag3X, which is NiMH or alkaline compatible)


----------



## BC0311 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Newbie, too messed up and blackened for which one? I'm getting confused. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Britt


----------



## Lunal_Tic (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

It seems possible that each light went bang. Run a tissue around the inside and each end of the UK and see if it shows residue. If it does then it was likely destroyed by explosion not impact. It also might be that one was an rapid out gassing and no fire/ignition and the other might have been both.


----------



## makar (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

was there ever a problem with a 1 x cr123 light? it seems that this explosions only happen to >2 x cr123 cell flashlights.

is it possible that these explosions come from a combination of one relatively empty and one full cell.
@RY3:_is it possible you used a configuration like this?


----------



## Hans (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

[ QUOTE ]
*makar said:*
was there ever a problem with a 1 x cr123 light? it seems that this explosions only happen to >2 x cr123 cell flashlights.
is it possible that these explosions come from a combination of one relatively empty and one full cell.
@RY3:_is it possible you used a configuration like this? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent questions. I've been wondering about this myself. And if it is true that such incidents may be caused by one cell that's relatively empty and one that is still full or almost full, what can one do to prevent such incidents from happening? 

After all, there are occasionally bad CR123s. I had a couple last year in a batch I bought for a camera, they must have had less than half the usual capacity. So even if you're careful not to mix cells you can't protect yourself from this sort of thing.

Hans


----------



## NewBie (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Interesting point, all the 123 lights I've seen pictures of or reported explosions have always been with two cells, which would mean that one of the cells very well could be ran down below a safe point, since 123 cells are not identical (even within the same SureFire box), and one would naturally be depleted before the other.



[ QUOTE ]
*BC0311 said:*
Newbie, too messed up and blackened for which one? I'm getting confused. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Britt 

[/ QUOTE ]


This one:


----------



## Stanley (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

My theory above is that the explosion could've started somewhere else, i.e. the Pelican or even just a loose cell shorting, etc.. Its just the after effect where a burning cell or similar could've landed on or near the tailend of the 2L which caused the hole on it, and so on and so forth... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif


----------



## cobb (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

So? We need to store our lights with the tail cap unscrewed? Drill some vent holes? Use a multimeter to match the cells after use? Reserve unequal cells for led lights only?


----------



## NewBie (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

[ QUOTE ]
*Stanley said:*
My theory above is that the explosion could've started somewhere else, i.e. the Pelican or even just a loose cell shorting, etc.. Its just the after effect where a burning cell or similar could've landed on or near the tailend of the 2L which caused the hole on it, and so on and so forth... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif 

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure.

She was using the Pelican M6 with what appears Surefire 123 cells (and the wrappper piece from the blown which also has a red tint looking through the white inside of the SureFire cell wrapper, the Pelican M6 black sooty inside and black on many of the tailcap components, dents in the tailcap rim, thrashed Pelican M6 threads, and the part of the Pelican M6 and the tail in pieces and physically blown apart, along with the body/head end sitting on the floor.

The TL2 only looks like it was broken by something hitting it, notice the white stress marks in the TL2 body plastic.


It is also good to note there is a good documented history of the Surefire 123 cells venting/leaking harmlessly in the standard packaging SureFire provides for the cells.

Again, note how the distinct SureFire 123 with it's wrapper clearly exploded, unrolling the seal on the top.

Lets look at the SureFire 123 cell and the mystery cell...









RY3,

Can you make out any markings on the side of the other cell (not the one with the SureFire label still on it) that is missing it's wrapper (which the wrapper piece looks like a SureFire wrapper looking from the inside)? I'm talking about the ink date stamp on the side of the cell, as shown below:


----------



## Former_Mag_User (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Those new "Titanium" brand 123's from Countycomm also have a red wrapper and 2 vent holes at the top. I have a small box of these. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/str.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/aaa.gif


----------



## StuU (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

[ QUOTE ]
*Stanley said:*
The tail end of the 2L looks burnt/melted with a hole on it. Could the fire have started from outside, i.e. one of the burning cells landed on the tail end of the 2L and the heat melted the tail and subsequently pressure built up on the tail end caused the whole light to pop thru the front? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif 

[/ QUOTE ]

Looking again at my UKE2L, there are some disturbing features on this light.

*Firstly, the negative contact wire and rear spring are one piece of wire-like spring steel. This strip/spring is hooked into a recess in the front of the light. The rear of the contact wire is the bottom spring which sits in the base. The strip is very clearly bowed outward in the center of the light and would be in contact or near-contact with any batteries in the center section. 

*This light turns on/off by a twist bezel. This means that the battery stack probably rotates to some degree when operating the on/off. This would allow the bowed-out (-)contact strip to rub against the CR123 wrapping. Remember that the negative body of the top 123 = the positive contact of the bottom 123. If the top 123 wrapping is breached, a total shorting of the bottom 123 occurs with lots and lots of heat and fireworks.

*Also, this light with xenon module is carrying at least 1 amp through the (-)contact wire. This could heat up the wire and possibly melt through the wrapping of the 123?

*Another problem that I oberved with this light involves the switching contact at the front of the light. It appears possible that an erroneous contact could be made between the brass light module and the top of the (-)contact wire. This is because the light modules(xenon or led) have a long brass section that overlaps the (-)front contact by more than 3/8"- even when the light is turned off. The contact wire sits in the bottom of a 1/16" channel pretty well but is still unshielded and awfully close to the battery surface.

I've got one of these UKE2Ls and really like it. These explosions are just making me a bit paranoid. But it does appear that the basic design of the light is in question. 
Stu


----------



## RY3 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Hi. Thanks for all the comments and suggestion. I didn't even think of corrosive when we did the cleaning. Opps.

I learn later from my wife's confession /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif that before she use the PM6, she did turned on the UK2L but it was very dim.
So I was incorrect when I originally thought it has no batteries in the UK2L.

In other words, there were 4 batteries involved here. A Surefire, a Duracell, a DP and one unknown.
So at least one of the flashlight had mixed brand of batteries.

I am not sure about the theory that the UK-2L started the accident.
The battery compartment of UK2L was clean. There wasn't any residues that I can see. 
The picture that I posted looks like there was burn mark and a hole at the tail but there wasn't. It was just the camera angle. 
On the other hand, the inside of the PM6 was full of black residues.

Also, the inside of the Surefire was relatively clean when compare to the unknown one. I believe the unknown cell was the cause.

I look under my microscope but still can not identify it. It "seem" to have some blue tint but I also seeing some red.

http://img9.exs.cx/img9/6130/p1020270c9km.jpg

http://img179.exs.cx/img179/2880/p1020276c3hw.jpg

The other side..
http://img179.exs.cx/img179/9822/p1020277c8fa.jpg

Images replaced with links due to size. Please do not post pics wider than 800 pixels.

[email protected]


----------



## Dandrop (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Have you contacted pelican to see if they are going to replace your light, and maybe compensate other damages?

Pelican claims that their lights will not explode because of the safety valve they have on their lights. Clearly, this has failed.


----------



## deranged_coder (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

@Dandrop: Are you sure that claim applies to _all_ their lights? I thought only the ones with the "Ex inside the hexagon" mark were the ones that are claimed to be protected against explosions?

http://www.pelican.com/lights_aprovals.html


----------



## Dandrop (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Well, according to a Website: (i'm not sure if this is an official website)
Pelican Page Safety Features 

"An additional safety related attribute of Pelican flashlights is the built in patented hydrogen purge valve that allows explosive gases to harmlessly leave the battery compartments. <font color="red">In addition to this patented safety feature, pellets have been encapsulated into every Pelican flashlight</font>. These tiny catalyst pellets combine outgasing hydrogen discharging from batteries with ambient air trapped inside all flashlights, changing the mixture to harmless water droplets. This serves as an additional “backup” fail-safe not found in other lights. Battery powered flashlights are potentially dangerous due to the hydrogen gas given off by over heated battery cells exploding as the unit is turned on.

This has resulted in occasions where the flashlight can explode, causing bodily harm. To combat this potentially dangerous situation, Pelican flashlights now incorporate a special one-way valve that allows small amounts of hydrogen gas to harmlessly escape, yet prevents the ingress of ambient explosive gases..."

I am not a pelican expert, but it says so right there...


----------



## deranged_coder (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Ummm... I don't think that is Pelican's official home page. AFAIK (I could be wrong) their official home page is at http://www.pelican.com/

EDIT: I did some more digging and found that the M6 is still listed as pending as far as approvals.

http://www.pelican.com/small_lights/li_2320_m6_lithium.htm


----------



## Dandrop (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

DC:
Lol, i do not know if it is the official homepage. Let me edit my post to reflect that.

However, if you go to pelican.com and look for the M6, it does have the 'you break it, we replace it' guarantee!


----------



## Size15's (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

The PM6 does not have that I'm aware of the obvious safety valve that my Super Sabrelite and StealthLites have.
The UK-2L does not have a safety valve either (I've lent mine out but I'm pretty sure it doesn't).

Al


----------



## BC0311 (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

I still have this UKE-2L that exploded , along with all the parts and the two batteries in a little tupperware container. 

I'd be happy to mail it to someone in the USA that would like to do a post mortem. Free, including postage.

Just say you want it here and then PM your shipping info to me, I'll get it in the mail Monday morning. The first to do both of those things will get it.

Britt


----------



## deranged_coder (Feb 26, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

True, Pelican does have the "You break it, we replace it... forever." tagline. Would be interesting to find out just how far they will hold true to that.

FWIW, I own a Pelican M6 (Xenon) and it does not have any safety valve that I am aware of.


----------



## jtivat (Feb 27, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

The UKL2 has a hole under the first O-ring (the one near the body) to vent.


----------



## NewBie (Feb 27, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

[ QUOTE ]
*RY3 said:*
Hi. Thanks for all the comments and suggestion. I didn't even think of corrosive when we did the cleaning. Opps.

I learn later from my wife's confession /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif that before she use the PM6, she did turned on the UK2L but it was very dim.
So I was incorrect when I originally thought it has no batteries in the UK2L.

In other words, there were 4 batteries involved here. A Surefire, a Duracell, a DP and one unknown.
So at least one of the flashlight had mixed brand of batteries.

I am not sure about the theory that the UK-2L started the accident.
The battery compartment of UK2L was clean. There wasn't any residues that I can see. 
The picture that I posted looks like there was burn mark and a hole at the tail but there wasn't. It was just the camera angle. 
On the other hand, the inside of the PM6 was full of black residues.

Also, the inside of the Surefire was relatively clean when compare to the unknown one. I believe the unknown cell was the cause.

I look under my microscope but still can not identify it. It "seem" to have some blue tint but I also seeing some red.

http://img9.exs.cx/img9/6130/p1020270c9km.jpg

http://img179.exs.cx/img179/2880/p1020276c3hw.jpg

The other side..
http://img179.exs.cx/img179/9822/p1020277c8fa.jpg

Images replaced with links due to size. Please do not post pics wider than 800 pixels.

[email protected] 

[/ QUOTE ]


The two top battery contacts, can you get us photos of those, and or count the vent holes?

On the base of SureFire and Engergizer cells, dead center, you will see a small circular dimple. Could you look for that?


----------



## Mags (Feb 27, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

[ QUOTE ]
*NewBie said:*







[/ QUOTE ]

Newbie, if Im not mistaken, every CR123 battery in existence has those two vent holes.


----------



## Mags (Feb 27, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

I currently have both a titanium battery and a SF 123 battery in front of me. When I look at the wrappings in the pictures, I can see that the wrapping is a darker color of red, unlike the Titanium battery which is a more lighter hue of red. Also, the titanium battery has a different design under the + contact button. I wish I can post pictures, but I cant find any of my cameras or the USB connectors. Others who own these will probably understand. On SF cells, you can see that there is black plastic surrounding the vent hole. The surrounding plastic is a complete circle with no hole in it. On a titanium cell however, that plastic circle is really a sort of + shaped design with the + contact button in the middle of it. This picture I made in paint should fit the description.
http://img133.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img133&image=untitled7ph.png
When I looked in the given pictures, the top of the battery looked a lot like an SF battery. But I may be mistaken. The battery might have been a Titanium battery, and the black surrounding plastic might have fused together into one piece from the heat of the explosion. Then again... I wont make any assumptions since I am not sure of anything.


----------



## NewBie (Feb 27, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

[ QUOTE ]
*Mags_despiser said:*
[ QUOTE ]
*NewBie said:*






[/ QUOTE ]

Newbie, if Im not mistaken, every CR123 battery in existence has those two vent holes. 

[/ QUOTE ]


You are mistaken:







Furthermore, amongst the two vent hole cells, the placement of where those two holes are on the side of the "nipple" (up towards the top as in the SureFire/Energizer cells, vs. lower with other cells) further helps identify who's cell it is. There are also differences in crimping, the bottom plastic ring, the top plastic disk, and plenty of other things.


----------



## RY3 (Feb 27, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Thanks for fixing the pictures Bart. Sorry about that.

When I first posting this thread, my intention was just to share my experience, not to blame or pointing finger to anyone or anything. As someone mentioned, what's life without some sort of dangerous and excitement although I am not sure if my wife will agree. Now like some of you, I am interested to find out what is the brand of the unknown cell.

Anyway, here are the pictures. The one on the left has two parts. I include the botton part that "I think" belong to the one on the right. Also, I can't see any marking on the bottom of the cells.


----------



## Lightbringer (Feb 27, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

What about other lithiums, like AA and AAAs? 

Hydrogen venting only occurs after useage right? So keeping cells in a pelican case (like batterystation's package deal) is ok?


----------



## chiphead (Feb 27, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

I think I'll have a look at how I've got my cells stored. I think CSI will need to check this one out. I've got these and other batteries stashed all over the place!

chiphead


----------



## enLIGHTenment (Feb 27, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

[ QUOTE ]
*SilverFox said:*
The vent is supposed to relieve the pressure build up in a controlled way.


[/ QUOTE ]

A vent on a battery isn't going to do a blind bit of good if the battery is inside a sealed container such as a flashlight body. The flashlight tube will turn into a pipe bomb when it can no longer contain the gas pressure.

*Store lithium-powered lights with the tailcaps off.*


----------



## Ophiuchus (Feb 28, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Lithium batteries discharge sulfur-dioxide gas. There is a slow industry trend toward a safer lithium-manganese composition. Many lithium batteries for modern military application are of lithium-manganese composition. Example;
http://www.ulbi.com/ and http://www.ulbi.com/market-display.asp?ID=7


----------



## joshwang (Feb 28, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

This is dangerous, man!! Good thing you weren't EDCing it when this happened,RY3. I happen to have a 12 pack SFcr123s in my dehumidifying box now, and it worries me. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif Will the cells blow only when they are in a light? I am also interested in what response SF gave you on the batts, i mean, this isn't just you average problem, someone could probably even sue them for this. Anyways, just glad that no one got hurt.


----------



## Ray_of_Light (Feb 28, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

WATER DIFFUSION IN LITHIUM-MANGANESE CELLS

This episode has been so scary to me that I have found compelling to explain it thoughtfully. I rely so heavily on my primary 123s that any safety based on excess of precaution would have brought me one era back…

Let me state first that the violence of the explosion requires more energy than the energy chemically stored in the battery.

Also, there is to explain why the overpressure and the PTC protections of the 123 battery haven't kicked in.

The only viable scenario, and a reproducible one, is a defective cell. Let me explain in what manner it was defective.

As you all know, the 123s are based on a non-water chemistry. They use an organic solvent, with a volatile compound (sulphur based) as electrolyte. This is because the electro-negativity of the lithium, used at the negative electrode is so high that it spontaneously decomposes the water into hydrogen and oxygen. 

Assume that a 123 cell with a defective crimp was produced, and stored. The highly volatile electrolyte vanishes first, and this raises the internal resistance of the cell - so it has a flash-amp reading is 1 – 2 Amps instead of the usual 7+ Amps.
Subsequently the ambient water, normally contained in the air, is adsorbed through the defective crimp seal, by the manganese dioxide, and rests there. The manganese dioxide has an affinity with water. 

So far, the cell is in a meta-stable state, just as a sleeping pipe-bomb. 

Let’s now assume the above cell is placed in a two cells light, totally sealed, in series with a good 123 cell. 
The light is activated. It produces some light, since the defective cell will initially pump some current, for the first five minutes (tested), while heating up quickly due to the increased internal resistance. 
After the first five minutes, the cell is being reverse charged from the good cell, and the stray water contained in the manganese dioxide reaches the hot lithium metal. It decomposes in hydrogen and oxygen very fast, while the lithium heats up some more. 
This chemical reaction produces an explosive gas mixture that self-ignites soon after, shooting away the tail cap of the flashlight like a projectile. 

The PTC (Positive Temperature Coefficient) protection, and the membrane piercing overpressure relief have no mean, or reason, to intervene in this process. 

Based on my previous experience, I had a similar occurrence of defective crimped 123 cells with some DP brand cells, sold by a manufacturer no longer in business. Knowing the danger of water diffusion in lithium cells, I throw them away promptly. I strongly doubt that a SF or DL cell was the initiator of this small disaster.

As morale, if you are scared from this story, the only precaution I advice is to flash-amp your cells. Cells with defective crimps, that can present the risk of water diffusion, show a short-circuit current, otherwise called flash-amp, of 1- 2 Amp.
Another valid suggestion is to buy only cells built from a ISO certified factory! 

Hope this helps

Anthony


----------



## mike2004 (Feb 28, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

[ QUOTE ]
show a short-circuit current, otherwise called flash-amp, of 1- 2 Amp.

[/ QUOTE ]

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/huh2.gif

How does this present itself on a DMM?


----------



## Ray_of_Light (Feb 28, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

To measure flash-amps, set your DMM on 20 Amp scale, and measure the current flowing through the 123 cell.
Remember to keep the reading shorter than one or two seconds.

Anthony


----------



## mike2004 (Feb 28, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

[ QUOTE ]
*Ray_of_Light said:*
To measure flash-amps, set your DMM on 20 Amp scale, and measure the current flowing through the 123 cell.
Remember to keep the reading shorter than one or two seconds.

Anthony 

[/ QUOTE ]


What reading will I get with a short?

What reading will I get without a short?

It takes my DMM 2-3 seconds to stabilize when taking current readings so what do I do then?


----------



## Hans (Feb 28, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

[ QUOTE ]
*Ray_of_Light said:*
As morale, if you are scared from this story, the only precaution I advice is to flash-amp your cells. Cells with defective crimps, that can present the risk of water diffusion, show a short-circuit current, otherwise called flash-amp, of 1- 2 Amp.
Another valid suggestion is to buy only cells built from a ISO certified factory! 

[/ QUOTE ]

If I understand your explanation correctly the sequence of events you described is only possible in a two cell light because the defective cell has to be reverse charged by a good cell. Is that correct? Because if it is there's another possibility to avoid this sort of thing happening - use only lights that work on one cell.

Is that line of reasoning sound?

Hans


----------



## gadget_lover (Feb 28, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

OK, I'm a little confused....

It looks like there were bare cells in that box along with spare parts, bare wires, etc. A very bad way to store batteries.

Then there's the PM6 with what looks like soot all over. The PM6 is shown with the tailcap off, but the button plunger is not in the tailcap, nor is the battery contact. The plunger is to the right and the battery contact is to teh left of teh tailcap. The metal center contact plate is still in place. That would indicate the brass plunger (with a diameter around .704 inches) under the rubber cap was forced out through the .670 hole in the aluminum tail cap. That takes a lot of force.

I'm not sure why there would be any black soot between the metal center contact plate and the plunger. 

If the tailcap was blown off, the button should have stayed in place. If the button was blown off, the battery contact should have stayed in place.

What does not make sense is what caused the black plastic inside battery contact holder to become unglued and unscrewed from the tailcap. The threads look OK. I had to boil mine to losen the locktite and even then it was a struggle due to the tight fit. Keep in mind the pressure would have pushed the plunger up against the metal plate that was still in the tailcap. I see no reason for the battery contact to be out of the tailcap.

The inside of a black PM6 is normally black, by the way.


My money is on one of the loose cells being shorted and starting a fire.

It' usually possible to determine the origin of a messy explosion by looking at the patterns of the residue, no? It looks like it may have come from the left rear of the box.


----------



## beezaur (Feb 28, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Let me see if I understand this. . .

Hypothetically:

One battery lost its volatiles from a leak; they were replaced by atmospheric water (or maybe just oxygen?). Kind of like ion exchange.

Then the bad battery was placed in series with current from the other battery running through it. I don't quite follow the electrochemistry, but this causes the thing to overheat and decompose the water -- BOOM.

Seems reasonable.

Now, we might all have "pipe bombs" or we might not. We can check by quickly measuring the short circuit current from each battery. They should be ~6-7 A new; 1-2 indicates a problem. (What would voltage be?) In no case should two lithium batteries with mismatched "flash-amps" be used in the same light at the same time.

Is that about right, and if so, is the procedure "bomb"-proof? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

That sounds easy enough to do, even for me /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Scott


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## RY3 (Feb 28, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

[ QUOTE ]
_gadget_lover said:_
OK, I'm a little confused....

[/ QUOTE ]

*I am confuss on a few thing myself as well!!! For example, I still can not figure how the PM6 body get to where it was located.*


[ QUOTE ]
It looks like there were bare cells in that box along with spare parts, bare wires, etc. A very bad way to store batteries.

[/ QUOTE ]

*Yes. As I mentioned before, there were two 1/5A in the boxes and both showed no damage after the incidence. There should NOT be any bare wires. Can you point it out to me?*

[ QUOTE ]
What does not make sense is what caused the black plastic inside battery contact holder to become unglued and unscrewed from the tailcap. The threads look OK. I had to boil mine to losen the locktite and even then it was a struggle due to the tight fit. Keep in mind the pressure would have pushed the plunger up against the metal plate that was still in the tailcap. I see no reason for the battery contact to be out of the tailcap.

[/ QUOTE ]

*No idea how the tail cap got apart. But I took a close-up picture on the threads and the parts from the PM6. There was damage on the threads. 

Also, as you can see from the pictures I posted before, the "bass plunger" was ended up behind box#1, the tail cap ended up in box#3; both the body and the negative contact part were found on the floor. *







[ QUOTE ]
The inside of a black PM6 is normally black, by the way.

[/ QUOTE ]

*I actually don't remember but it is definitely black now. Here is a close-up pic inside the PM6 while it was on the floor.*






[ QUOTE ]
My money is on one of the loose cells being shorted and starting a fire.

[/ QUOTE ]

*I am not sure about this. There were totally four 123 batteries in the boxes. Originally, I thought the DP and Duracell were lossely in the boxes but later my wife said she remember she used the UK-2L but it was dim, so she used the PM6 instead. If she remember correctly, this mean all the 123 cells were in the flashlights.*

[ QUOTE ]
It' usually possible to determine the origin of a messy explosion by looking at the patterns of the residue, no? It looks like it may have come from the left rear of the box. 

[/ QUOTE ]

*I have to say I am not good at this. Beside, the box#1 was moved, so items might relocated. The box was on fire and it was put under running water in the sink to put the fire out.

Hope it clear some of the confussion. 

By the way, I'm still trying get a full statement from my wife but she is not very cooperative!!*

..


----------



## BC0311 (Feb 28, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Excellent explanation, Ray. 

This makes sense of what I observed in the incident with my defective Lisun (looks just like a DP) brand 123A cell.

If I don't need to keep lithium batteries in a light, I don't. I only use Duracell and Battery Station cells now. I've experience some quirkiness with a few Surefire cells, nothing major though. 

Britt


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## Lunal_Tic (Feb 28, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Hmm, an uncooperative witness . . .the plot thickens. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif


----------



## DaGeek (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

hmmmmmm


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## enLIGHTenment (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

[ QUOTE ]
*RY3 said:*
I am not sure about this. There were totally four 123 batteries in the boxes. Originally, I thought the DP and Duracell were lossely in the boxes but later my wife said she remember she used the UK-2L but it was dim, so she used the PM6 instead. If she remember correctly, this mean all the 123 cells were in the flashlights.

[/ QUOTE ]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but if all four batteries were in the lights, then both lights would have been loaded with mismatched cells. Bang.

Likely one of the lights cooked off and the other one (already in an unstable state due to mismatched cells) responded in sympathy due to the heat or blast.



chevrofreak: what's wrong with the M6 switch?


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## gadget_lover (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

In picture P1020 (shows volt meter, charger and what appears to be a blasted cell in the lower left) there are all sorts of exposed metal. There are voltmeter probes, a power adapter, what looks like a coil of solder.....


I still have not figured out how an explosion would blow out the brass plunger and then still have enough presure built up to blow off the tailcap. The threads on the end of the light don't look great, but they don't look stripped. They look a lot like my PM6 incan's threads. Does the tailcap screw back on?

I suppose if there was enough pressure to force the button out through that hole, and then the black palstic of the battery cotact melted and sealed up the 1/4 inch hole in the plate it might have allowed pressure to build again. I would have thought that the melted plastic would just squirt through.

The threads on half the photos look shiny or metalic, on some others they are almost black. Is that an illusion or did some of the powder get spread around later?

Daniel


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## Vrt (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

[ QUOTE ]
*Ophiuchus said:*
Lithium batteries discharge sulfur-dioxide gas. There is a slow industry trend toward a safer lithium-manganese composition. Many lithium batteries for modern military application are of lithium-manganese composition. Example;
http://www.ulbi.com/ and http://www.ulbi.com/market-display.asp?ID=7 

[/ QUOTE ]

What type are popular CR123A cells ? Aren't they Li/MnO2 already ? 

[ QUOTE ]
*Ray_of_Light said:*
This is because the electro-negativity of the lithium, used at the negative electrode is so high that it spontaneously decomposes the water into hydrogen and oxygen. 

[/ QUOTE ]

As far as I know lithium doesn't decompose water into hydrogen and oxygen, it bonds with OH and hydrogen is released.
2Li + 2H2O -> 2LiOH + H2

[ QUOTE ]
*Ray_of_Light said:*
As morale, if you are scared from this story, the only precaution I advice is to flash-amp your cells. Cells with defective crimps, that can present the risk of water diffusion, show a short-circuit current, otherwise called flash-amp, of 1- 2 Amp. 
Another valid suggestion is to buy only cells built from a ISO certified factory! 

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't short-circuit a cell dangerous ?


----------



## Vrt (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

[ QUOTE ]
*Hans said:*
If I understand your explanation correctly the sequence of events you described is only possible in a two cell light because the defective cell has to be reverse charged by a good cell. Is that correct? Because if it is there's another possibility to avoid this sort of thing happening - use only lights that work on one cell.


[/ QUOTE ]

What is a reverse charging ?


----------



## Lurker (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

[ QUOTE ]
*gadget_lover said:*
I still have not figured out how an explosion would blow out the brass plunger and then still have enough presure built up to blow off the tailcap.

[/ QUOTE ]

A possible explanation is that the explosion started in the cell that was farther from the tail cap. Maybe the explosion pushed the rear cell out like a bullet in a gun barrel. The "bullet" battery initially struck and forced the brass plunger out and after that, it struck the remainder of the tailcap and forced that off. The rear battery contained the pressure after the brass plunger left. This is obviously just speculation.

Another variable to consider in this story is that since the person who last used the lights is not being very forthcoming with details, maybe she did some strange things to the lights in an effort to make them work better. Things that she didn't want to admit after the explosion. Maybe she mixed up the batteries, banged the lights around, dropped one accidentally, left one on when she put it back, forced something, etc. It is still hard to see how that should cause an explosion, but it introduces more variables. She may have accidentally put a battery in backwards for all we know.

This thing has me worried and I would love to find out the real cause. It will certainly make me think twice before holding an M6 in my mouth.


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## Lunal_Tic (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

While a thirst for knowledge may be good, it might be best to let "sleeping dogs lie" in this case. Pushing too hard for info might cause another type of explosion . . .

Everyone involved knows to be more careful now.

Just my 2yen.
-LT


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## Lurker (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

[ QUOTE ]
*Vrt said:*
What is a reverse charging ? 

[/ QUOTE ]
When you have two cells in series powering a light and one cell is dead while the other cell is still strong, the current will flow backwards through the dead cell. That is called reverse charging. It will also happen if you put a battery in a charger backwards.


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## evan9162 (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

[ QUOTE ]

When you have two cells in series powering a light and one cell is dead while the other cell is still strong, the current will flow backwards through the dead cell. That is called reverse charging. It will also happen if you put a battery in a charger backwards. 



[/ QUOTE ]

Er, sort of.

The current still flows the same direction, but due to the chemistry inside the battery, instead of a positive voltage from - to +, you get a negative voltage from - to + ; in other words, the - terminal becomes the +, and the + becomes the -. The battery is no longer supplying energy, it is dissipating energy. Some in heat, some in causing chemical reactions to occurr. I'm not sure what the reactions are when a Li primary cell gets reverse charged, but it's certianly not what the manufacturer intended.


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## Ray_of_Light (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

SOme clarifications.
Vrt correctly said that a simple reaction between Li and H2O produces LiOH and H. I oversimplified the reaction for sake of clarity, but the whole dynamics of chemistry is different with the presence of MnO2 at about 200 Celsius, togheter with many chlorinated organic compounds. Trust me on the fact that, at a certain point in time, you will have abundancy of hydrogen and oxygen. Oxygen is initially produced from the overheated MnO2, while some more will be produced from the dissociation of the -OH radical. 

Please note that not all defectively crimped cells degrade in such destructive manner. The behavior of a lithium cell in presence of water contamination, depends on some specific physical properties of the MnO2, which varies from brand to brand. This involves the additives used, the purity of MnO2 and the preparation process. Some off-brand uses cheap hygroscopic additives, intended to improve the conductivity; based on the assumption that water should never get there.

Another point is the mechanics of the explosion. The expanding gases pushed the tailcap forward; while the gases are compressing, no cell pushes the other. After the tailcap has been pushed forward, then the gases shoot the cells outside the flashlight barrel, and the cells itself get disassembled by the expleting mechanical forces. Strange as it may appear, the flame front propagated from the slack of the barrel, INSIDE the battery, and then it waved back, shooting the tailcap forward, more or less as happen inside an ammunition round.

The black powder you see in the pictures is the MnO2.

Regards

Anthony


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## Lurker (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

My chemistry is a little weak, but it sounds like Anthony knows what he is talking about and has a sound theory of what happened. I still don't see what ignited the hydrogen, but I could have missed something in all of that. In in any case, what exactly is the lesson to take from this? In the simplest terms possible. Would it be:

- Don't use cheap off brand lithium cells.
- Don't use a cell if the crimp looks defective or damaged in any way.

Or is it about venting your flashlight or avoiding the PM6 or is it something else? What should I be doing to avoid this? I like keeping at least one 2 x CR123 light loaded and ready, but i don't want to burn down my house or car.


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## SilverFox (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Hello Anthony,

I have speculated that the residue from a "rapid vent with flame" cell can be corrosive. Can you comment on that?

Tom


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## RY3 (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

[ QUOTE ]
There are voltmeter probes, a power adapter, what looks like a coil of solder.....

[/ QUOTE ]
*The "coil of solder" look alike probably are the springs from the inside of the PM6 or UK-2L. 
I don't have any bare wire or solder coil in the boxes. I agree I should and will store the batteries in a much safer manner.*

[ QUOTE ]
The threads on the end of the light don't look great, but they don't look stripped. They 
look a lot like my PM6 incan's threads. Does the tailcap screw back on?

[/ QUOTE ]
*The picture didn't show it very clear but you can still see there is a piece of metal stuck in the threads. If you look at the photo, it is at the end and upper part of the thread. It is from the tailcap's threads.*

[ QUOTE ]
The threads on half the photos look shiny or metalic, on some others they are almost black. 
Is that an illusion or did some of the powder get spread around later?

[/ QUOTE ]
*I believe it is just an illusion from the camera flash. The one with the PM6 on the floor was taken with a flash; it was taken the same day the accident happened. The other photo was taken yesterday with macro mode (no flash). I don't think there were any "black powder" got to it later but I do put all the parts together in a box after the accidence. *

[ QUOTE ]
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but if all four batteries were in the lights, then both 
lights would have been loaded with mismatched cells.

[/ QUOTE ]
*As I can not identify one of the destroyed cell, I don't know. I really hope someone can id it from the photo.*

[ QUOTE ]
A possible explanation is that the explosion started in the cell that was farther from the tail cap. Maybe the explosion pushed the rear cell out like a bullet in a gun barrel. The "bullet" battery initially struck and forced the brass plunger out and after that, it struck the remainder of the tailcap and forced that off. The rear battery contained the pressure after the brass plunger left. This is obviously just speculation.

[/ QUOTE ]
*Another factor to consider is that some parts might not be disassembled by the explosion but rather by the impact on the cabinet door. *

[ QUOTE ]
This thing has me worried and I would love to find out the real cause. It will certainly 
make me think twice before holding an M6 in my mouth.

[/ QUOTE ]
*Well, it was exactly how my wife held the PM6 when she clean out dog's ears. However, I do believe (and hope) there probably will have some indication if it happen while we are holding the flashlight.*

[ QUOTE ]
While a thirst for knowledge may be good, it might be best to let "sleeping dogs lie" in 
this case. Pushing too hard for info might cause another type of explosion...

[/ QUOTE ]
*I really wish you gave me this warning earlier.*

...


----------



## Ray_of_Light (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Cheap, safe and good: pick any of the two.

1. Buy cells of known quality. 

2. Since it can be a bogus cell among quality ones, before sealing indefinetively 123s in a multiple cell flashlight, flash-amp the cells.

3. Inspect the cells after a violent drop of the light. That's the moment when most of the cell leak/explosion takes place.

4. Do not mix different brands in a multiple cell flashlight, and replace all the cells at once.

5. Be afraid to seal inside a flashlight cells that are close to end-of-life, or are defective in any manner. Unforeseen, and often nasty things happens mostly with discharged/bad cells. Throw away cells that you now are depleted more than 90%.

6. Single cells lights are safer. Low drain lights are safer.

7. An explosion can happen, by mean of various dynamics, with all type of cells, not strictly with lithium 123s. Statistically, the alkalines are the most prone to catastrophic failure, but there are very few sealed lights using alkalines. Also, they are less energy-dense than lithium.

8. The explosion of a cell is a very rare occurance. Good to be aware of, but unlikely for you to experience it.

Anthony

EDIT: The lithium 123 leaks some nasty chemicals, when mechanically abused or attempted to recharge. These chemicals will corrode both plastic and metals.

In the case presented here, the explosion very likely has dispersed all reactive chemicals. THe residue you see is mostly composed of degraded manganese dioxide, which is not toxic by itself. 
Lithium dust, which may be contained within, may pose an healt risk if inhaled or ingested, since is very reactive (as proven).
Better to vacuum clean the all room.


----------



## beezaur (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Lurker writes, "What should I be doing to avoid this?"

If I understand correctly, you can measure the current with one probe on each terminal of the battery (quickly). This checks the health of the battery, or at least a major aspect of it. A bad one won't do 6-7 A. Toss any that fail this test, and only put fresh batts in the light.

No cheap or untested batteries. Partially used batts go in a single-cell light, or at the very least get matched for current if put into something like an Inova X5.

That's my plan.

[edit: oops, you just beat me with that /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif ]

Scott


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## Lunal_Tic (Mar 1, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

[ QUOTE ]
RY3 Said:
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
While a thirst for knowledge may be good, it might be best to let "sleeping dogs lie" in 
this case. Pushing too hard for info might cause another type of explosion...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I really wish you gave me this warning earlier.


[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry RY3, been there done that myself. I was thinking it as soon as you mentioned her hesitance but didn't mention it till later. My bad.

-LT


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## NewBie (Mar 2, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

RY3,

Kudos on the photos, very nice.

That Pelican M6 sure had alot of crud in it, and to think alot of it spilled out as it rolled across on the floor.

For typical 123 cells:
http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/123.pdf
http://www.duracell.com/oem/Pdf/123.pdf

So, whats really in them?
http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/lithiummangdioxide_psds.pdf
http://www.duracell.com/oem/pdf/msds_2003.4.pdf
http://www.duracell.com/oem/primary/Lithium/composition.asp


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## Vrt (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

[ QUOTE ]
*Ray_of_Light said:*
2. Since it can be a bogus cell among quality ones, before sealing indefinetively 123s in a multiple cell flashlight, flash-amp the cells.


[/ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
*beezaur said:*
If I understand correctly, you can measure the current with one probe on each terminal of the battery (quickly). This checks the health of the battery, or at least a major aspect of it. A bad one won't do 6-7 A. Toss any that fail this test, and only put fresh batts in the light.


[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't shorting a cell through amp-meter dangerous ? I've read that CR123A cells shouldn't be shorted . Can't it explode at that moment ? From Duracell's MSDS (http://www.duracell.com/oem/Safety/pdf/2031_4.pdf):

[ QUOTE ]
Handling and Storage
Store at room temperature. Avoid mechanical or electrical abuse. *DO NOT* short or install incorrectly.
Batteries may explode, pyrolize or vent if disassembled, crushed, recharged or exposed to high temperatures.
Install batteries in accordance with equipment instructions. Replace all batteries in equipment at the same
time. Do not carry batteries loose in pocket or bag.


[/ QUOTE ]

"*DO NOT*" is capitalized and in bold, so it may be very important. 


[ QUOTE ]
*beezaur said:*
3. Inspect the cells after a violent drop of the light. That's the moment when most of the cell leak/explosion takes place.


[/ QUOTE ]

What does the "violent drop" means ? If EDC light (with CR123A) falls from 1-2 meters on concrete is it violent enough to be dangerous ?


[ QUOTE ]
*beezaur said:*Unforeseen, and often nasty things happens mostly with discharged/bad cells. Throw away cells that you now are depleted more than 90%.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do I know that the cell is depleted too much ? I want to use a regulated flashligth. When should I worry about security ? 


[ QUOTE ]
*beezaur said:*
7. An explosion can happen, by mean of various dynamics, with all type of cells, not strictly with lithium 123s. Statistically, the alkalines are the most prone to catastrophic failure, but there are very few sealed lights using alkalines. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Alkalines are more prone to catastrophic failure that CR123As ? Are they more dangerous than lithiums ? I didn't hear too much about alkaline-powered equimpent explosions.


----------



## beezaur (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

I think some of those quotes are not attributable to me, and where they are, I am mostly getting my information from Ray_of_Light's posts. He knows far more than me on this topic.

From what I do know about chemistry, I would say that it is not dangerous to short the battery for testing for a second or two. I think what they mean is that you should not leave the battery short circuited for any length of time. If I understand correctly, the battery will explode if 1) thermal conditions get bad and 2) the battery's safety features malfunction. I would not depend on (2), but (1) shoiuld not have a chance to develop in 1-2 s. Certainly I have never been able to feel any heat accumulation.

Dynamics of impact is a topic in which I have both experience and training.

The problem with dropping, as they say, isn't the fall, but the stop at the end. You have two materials, the light and the impact surface, that come into contact at the end. The velocity and the elasticity of the two materials are what determines what the acceleration is that generates the destructive force.

If you drop a beanbag on a feather bed, there is a pretty low acceleration (deceleration if you prefer). A beanbag on concrete is more acceleration, and an aluminum block on concrete is more yet.

The feather bed might produce a stop in 1/4 s (time t). At 5 m/s (velocity v for a drop of a little more than 1 m), that's v/t = 20 m/s^2, or about 2 "Gs."

A drop on concrete might stop a beanbag in 1/50 s. That's 250 m/s^2 = 25 Gs.

Metal on something like concrete not only stops the fall, but reverses the velocity entirely. The velocity change is double because of bounce.

I haven't measured time taken to bounce aluminum off concrete, but it is eceedingly small, say 1/250 sec to reverse the velocity from down to up: 2x(v/t) 2500 m/s^2 = 250 Gs. (Our dropped metal object is exposed to 10x the acceleration of the soft object in the same drop to the same surface.)

If you take something that weighs 15 grams and expose it to 250 Gs, it will "weigh" 250x15 = 3750 grams during that time. If you have two of those somethings, they will weigh 7500 grams together -- 7.5 kg (17 lb) is the force produced by both.

Exposing a small seal to that much force all at once will probably deform it.

The true situation is much more complicated because you have a variety of materials that can move in relation to one another, deformations will absorb energy, and some of the energy will undoubtedly go into rotation.

All the math aside, the underlying point is that surprisingly large forces can be developed even in a short drop.

So yes, check your batteries after you drop your light.

Scott


----------



## Ray_of_Light (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

"Flash-Amp" a cell means to measure the instantaneous short circuit current, to have an overall indication of the status of the cell. 
Manufacturers, of course, do not endorse such practice; if you search the CPF archives, there are many indications on how properly conduct this test safely.

There is another historical issue about alkalines and sealed lights. Alkalines can release hydrogen when are too drained, or reverse charged. If this happen in a sealed light, and it this happened to me, you get a loud "boom". 
On the other hand, an alkaline cell will not "esplode" like a defective 123 could, as we have seen in this thread, due to the different energy density and chemistry.
There are episodes documented here on CPF and I suggest you to conduct an archive search.

Hope this helps

Anthony


----------



## cheapo (Mar 4, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

I have contacted Pelican and had the poster E-mail them. They are going to replace his light. That is great customer satisfaction heh? That just shows that whatever happens to your Pelican light, you can always be assured that Pelican will replace your light if it is broken. That is a reason why I bought my Pelican, and they are top-quality products.

-David


----------



## Mags (Mar 5, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Is there a bigger chance that Incan 2 cell lights will explode? or 2 cell LED lights?


----------



## NewBie (Mar 6, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Depends on the current draw, and if the converter for the LEDs inside has a minimum voltage cut-off.

The cut-off feature is a definite *major* benefit for some converters (boost or buck). Some converters just skip this important safety feature, and can suck cells dry, which can lead to the possibility of reverse charging of one cell by the other cell. Other converters just naturally cut-out since they can't run at the lower voltages.

Pretty much any cell chemistry where you start reverse charging is a bad idea.


It's really nice of Pelican to pick up the tab, even if it had SureFire cells in it....


----------



## RY3 (Mar 7, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Just want to confirm that Pelican has contacted me (Thanks for David) and offer to replace my PM6. They also ask if I like to try the LED version instead.

Is Pleican the only one who advertises offers "you break it, we replace it, forever"? I wonder if UKE offers the same?

BTW, I finally took the PM6's head off to check it out. Attached is a picture if anyone interested.


----------



## NewBie (Mar 7, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

The filament supports in the bulb look interesting. Can you get a shot of them such that each support is visible?


----------



## deranged_coder (Mar 7, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

[ QUOTE ]
*RY3 said:*
Is Pleican the only one who advertises offers "you break it, we replace it, forever"? I wonder if UKE offers the same?


[/ QUOTE ]
Surefire's guarantee is somewhat similar. To quote their website: "Lamps will burn out, batteries will be used up, and tape switches for WeaponLights™ will eventually need to be replaced. Everything else is covered by our lifetime no-hassle guarantee: If it breaks, we fix it!"

My own first-hand experience with Surefire customer service was quite good.


----------



## RY3 (Mar 7, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

[ QUOTE ]
*NewBie said:*
The filament supports in the bulb look interesting. Can you get a shot of them such that each support is visible? 

[/ QUOTE ]

Here you go... 





The other side..


----------



## chevrofreak (Mar 7, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

I think the huge filament is the reason my Pelican M6 casts such a crappy beam. With a smooth reflector its a very wide oval beam, and you can actually see the loops of the filament in it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif


----------



## captjlw (Mar 7, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

UK did a great job for me. I sent a light back that had some age on it after the plastic lens broke out sending the batteries into the ocean. Yes I was just about to step overboard for a night dive. They didn't fix it, they sent me a new current edition model. No questions asked. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


----------



## Size15's (Mar 8, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Those are great photos!


----------



## dano (Mar 8, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

That's an old M6 lamp! The newest ones are one piece integrated with the reflector.

-dan


----------



## SilverFox (Mar 9, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Hello all,

I have been spending quite some time checking into this. Everywhere I look, I keep getting pointed in the same direction.

It seems that the most reliable way to get a primary Lithium CR123A cell to heat up and "rapidly vent with flame" is to subject it to a moderately high current. 

These cells have a PTC protection device built in. Its function is to create an open circuit in the presence of a dead short, or under high thermal conditions. The PTC circuits are available in different current ranges. It will reset a limited number of times when the temperatures reduce to a safe level.

We all know that cells discharge at different rates in a multi-cell light. Some people rotate the cells thinking that the position "in the stack" makes a difference, others will throw both cells out and replace with fresh cells, and still others will check the voltage and replace the "low" cell with a new one.

When you have a cell potential imbalance and you turn the light on, the full cell tries to charge the low cell and bring things to equilibrium. In the case of a slight difference, not much happens. If you have a new cell put in with a worn cell, heat can be generated and since this is not a "dead short," the PTC trip current may be higher than the actual current while this is going on. Pressure can build up inside the cell and poof...

I am not pointing fingers here. Once again, let me say I am not pointing fingers here, but if someone unfamiliar with lithium 123 lights "borrowed" one, turned it on only to find the output dim, replaced a single cell and used it, we have the stage set for problems. 

If any of this is close to what is really going on, an important part of using our lights would be to educate those around us that when the light goes dim, throw *BOTH* cells out and replace them with new.

I must admit that I have several used cells sitting around at different states of being used up. On occasion, I have grabbed whatever cells were handy to run a series of tests on a multi-cell light. I now have gathered up all my partially used cells and placed them in a zip loc bag that is labeled "Only for Use in Single Cell Lights." I have also instructed my family to not replace only one cell (I actually told them just to grab another light and I will take care of the re-loading /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif ).

Tom


----------



## JackBlades (Mar 9, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Excellent post, Silverfox!
Ever since I joined this board, and susequently began using multi-cell 123 lights, I have checked ALL cells with my DMM before loading. This includes checking/balancing used ones in my X5T. Just seemed like the smart thing to do.

I must admit that when I stumbled across this thread my eyes opened in awe. I had no idea something like this could happen!


----------



## Vrt (Mar 9, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

[ QUOTE ]
*JackBlades said:*
Ever since I joined this board, and susequently began using multi-cell 123 lights, I have checked ALL cells with my DMM before loading. 


[/ QUOTE ]
Have you checked voltage or amp. ?


----------



## Size15's (Mar 9, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

On quite a few occasions I have forced myself to throw away 'sets of batteries' because I can not be certain of their provenience rather than risk mixing cells. It is kind of gutting. I don't seem to be able to learn that I easily forget where the various huddles of batteries around came from. I don't use single-celled flashlights very often but I can usually find a battery sitting around to power one when I need it.

My best moment was when I had seven batteries in a group from an M6. One of them was obviously from a flashlight with a rotating TailCap. The six were basically unmarked. It can be really tempting not to worry about it.

Al


----------



## NewBie (Mar 9, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Whoa!!!

Those are awesome photos, whatcha using?


----------



## sween1911 (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

I mark my batts with a Sharpie when I install them. Usually with the date I put them in and a "2" or "3" to indicate that they went in as a set of two or three. Never really knew the extent of what could happen if you play fast and loose with mixing cells. Great info here on the dangers. With great lumens comes great responsibility! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif


----------



## beezaur (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

I don't think it is known that these cells were mixed.

Or did I miss something?

Scott


----------



## Size15's (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Based on the photos taken and the uncertainty of the users and the knowledge that this type of venting is significantly more likely to occur when batteries are mixed it is realistic to conclude that the batteries were mixed. 

That is my interpretation for what its worth.


----------



## js (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

[ QUOTE ]
*JackBlades said:*
Excellent post, Silverfox!
Ever since I joined this board, and susequently began using multi-cell 123 lights, I have checked ALL cells with my DMM before loading. This includes checking/balancing used ones in my X5T. Just seemed like the smart thing to do.

I must admit that when I stumbled across this thread my eyes opened in awe. I had no idea something like this could happen! 

[/ QUOTE ]

In gneral, it is *not possible* to determine the state of charge of a lithium manganese dioxide CR123 battery from a DMM open circuit voltage reading. Better to just replace batteries all at once, and with brand new batteries that are all of the exact same brand. I'd say that if you have any odd cells lying around, do exactly as SilverFox did: place them in a bag for use with single 123 lights only.


----------



## beezaur (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

"Based on the photos taken . . ."

I looked again at the photos of the two positive terminals, and they do seem to be different. Is this what you are referring to?

[edit: scratch that. One terminal looks like it still has two parts, but maybe they could still be the same?]

Scott


----------



## RY3 (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Well, Thanks again for all the comments. Just want to put a closure for this incidence. 

It was definitely an educational experience. As weird as it sound, I am kind of glad that it happened; I never thought it could happen and now I am aware of this potential problem. 

It is also funny that I didn't feel mad or upset on the day that I came home and saw what happened (ok... may be I will when it’s time to pay for the cabinet door). Instead, I was kind of - h*lly sh*t, we were so lucky that someone was home at the time, no body got hurt and with minimum damage.

Although I can not be sure nor have any prove if there was or wasn't any mixed brands of batteries involved in the PM6. I do want to point out a few facts:

So far, there are only two (2) brands of batteries that I actually purchased and actually in use. These are the Energizer (*a few*) and Surefire (*mostly*). I got some Universal on my last purchase from TTS but they are still in shrink warp.

As for all the flashlights (new and used) I purchased over the years, I don't remember all the battery brands that they came with. But what I have left at the time of the accidence happened were two (2) Duracell, one (1) DP and one (1) Koran made battery.

Below is a list of flashlights (CR123 type)that I have and the batteries that they were equipped with at the time of the accidence: 
- Surefire L4 with Pila 168 battery.
- Surefire KL1 on E2e body with Pila 168 battery.
- Inova X5 with 4 1/5A batteries.
- Streamlight Scorpion with no battery
- PM6 with 5W LED McModule with two (2) Energizer batteries.
- PM6 with one Surefire and one unidentified brand of batteries.
- UKE-2L with either no battery or a mix of Duracell and DP batteries.
- Mr. Bulk VIP with a Surefire battery.
- FF1 with a Koran made battery. (This is the one that my wife usually uses but misplaced and now found)
- FF2 with a Surefire battery.
- Surefire E1e with no battery.

Additional, all new Energizer batteries are in their individual packaging, all new Surefire batteries are in the original plastic zip lock bag (4 packs) that came with the order (TTS). Other than the 2 slightly burned batteries( Duracell and DP), the only loosely placed CR123 batteries are one (1) Surefire and one (1) Duracell that I placed along with my E1e in another box in another room.

I guess what I am trying to say is that although there is always a chance that there was a mixed brands of batteries in the PM6; but the likelihood is that there wasn't.

As for the possibility that someone replaced only one battery, I don't believe so. The wife already gave me the rolling eyes when I told her someone suggest that she use water to wash the dogs’ ears and water somehow got into the flashlight. However, Sliverfox have an excellent point about educating your family and friend about the danger if doing so. I know I will.

Ron


----------



## beezaur (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

js, 

You can measure current and get a better idea.

I disagree with Size15's conclusion that the batteries were mixed. After spending the last hour or so going over those pics (I'm home sick today) I can't see where any such conclusion is founded.

It is a semantics thing, but I would not use the sacred word "conclusion" unless absolutely sure. From what I have seen and read, I wouldn't even put the probability of mixed batteries over 50%.

I think we know about as much as is knowable, short of testing the debris in a lab.

Thanks, Ron, for being so open with this incident. I for one have learned a great deal here. No telling how many old and mismatched batteries were removed from flashlights because of this.

Scott


----------



## SilverFox (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Hello Ron,

Thanks for the update.

I don't think we will ever be able to fully understand what happened, but our "grasping at straws" has uncovered several ways that we can make our usage of Lithium powered lights safer.

My family and I thank you and your wife for sharing this event and putting up with our endless questions. Our household is safer as a result of this discussion.

Tom


----------



## Size15's (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

These are the two batteries from the PM6. They do not appear to be the same to me.


----------



## StuU (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

[ QUOTE ]
*js said:*
I'd say that if you have any odd cells lying around, do exactly as SilverFox did: place them in a bag for use with single 123 lights only. 

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I was doing..but after reading this thread, I decided that it's not a good idea to have a bunch of used CR123s thrown into a container. In fact, I started thinking about 2 batts shorting and the whole bunch firing up. 

I finally decided to tape over these used batteries to insure against any unwanted shorting out.


----------



## beezaur (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

I can't look at those pictures and say they are different. Maybe I am missing something.

After spending another couple of hours with it all I can say is that when I remove all red and magenta after several iterations of color enhancing, I can see bluish-green parts of what might be letters on one battery where the known Surefire has gone completely to gray. But that color difference could be entirely due to charring, and the "letters" are approximately the same size as those on my own Surefire batteries.

I can email the pic if someone wants to put it up: [email deleted].

Scott


----------



## beezaur (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Al, I think I have to apologize.

I have no freakin' clue what it is you are seeing, but I think I found a square and most of a "W" in one of those images. I enhanced the color, cranked the blues and greens, and turned off the reds and yellows. I think those batts were mismatched by brand, and you are right.

big image:




small image with what I think is the match:




For what it's worth.

Scott


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## tvodrd (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Wow! Nice piece of Photoshop forensics! 

Larry


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## beezaur (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

GIMP actually -- www.gimp.org -- I'm a Linux/Unix guy.

Thanks.

Scott


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## RY3 (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Wow. How could I not see that? I even put it under the microscope! Duh!

Scott, I am so glad that you are sick today and have to spend hours at home to do the CSI works.

You have no idea how relief I am now that we know the "cause".

Well done and Thanks

Ron


----------



## cobb (Mar 10, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

I unscrewed and checked both my my cr123 lights. Both battery tubes smelt like gasoline, but the cells looked fine. I then blew in the tubes and put the batteries back.


----------



## Size15's (Mar 11, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

No need to apologise. It's difficult to be sure (which is the problem) but your evidence is compelling. I could have been mistaken just as easily (some say I have been wrong before! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif ). I am more certain now for seeing the photos.

Thanks

Al


----------



## BC0311 (Mar 11, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Very good work, Scott. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Britt


----------



## Kevin Tan (Mar 11, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

cant get the pic. What the verdict?


----------



## Pablo (Mar 11, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

so horrible!
so all be careful.


----------



## beezaur (Mar 11, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

I'm new to this image hosting business. I'll see if I can't get a smaller version to post here.

Looking at the image of the burned battery's label, you can see the faintest hint of blue or green. The problem is, with all the other features of the image, you can't make out what the blue-green might be.

First I used GIMP's color enhance feature a few times, to better see what was going on, in a small area I had selected as active. Then I adjusted the red, yellow, and magenta channels to greyscale and dark. This had the effect of squashing everything non-blue/green to the black end of greyscale. Last I saturated and lightened the blue, cyan, and green channels. The end result is that any pixels that had even the slightest hint of blue or green became very bright, and all pixels without blue or green were made nearly black. Nothing has been added or interpolated. The smearing and big pixels are the result of original image compression and probably the nature of the camera's sensor (color-sensitive elements are spaced relatively few and far between compared to greyscale-sensitive elements -- your eyes are the same way).

Here's that smaller image:







And here is a smaller version of the other image. The processing is more or less the same, but I think I also contrast enhanced it by equalizing its histogram, and the whole image was processed to make the comparison between the two batts.





Scott 

PS: Oh yes, they deserve credit for providing a hosting service so simple that even I can figure out:

Thanks to ImageShack for Free Image Hosting


----------



## brightnorm (Mar 15, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

From Ultralife Batteries PDF re Lithium Manganese:

_*"LITHIUM-SULFUR DIOPXIDE BATERIES ARE BEING PHASED OUT*Because of a number of incidents resulting in soldier injuries, and the possible venting of toxic and noxious sulfur dioxide gas, the Li/SO2 battery chemistry is losing favor for military applications and is starting to be replaced by Li/MnO2 batteries."_

Does this apply to Surefire? They are presumably the leading supplier of 3v 123 batteries to the military so one would assume thdey are in the vanguard of this transition. Is it possible that the Surefire-initiated lithium price breakthrough was made possible by aiming the Li/SO2 batteries at the civilian and police markets while providing the more lucrative military market with state-of-the-art Li/MnO2 technology?

Brightnorm


----------



## deranged_coder (Mar 15, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

[ QUOTE ]
*brightnorm said:*
From Ultralife Batteries PDF re Lithium Manganese:

_*"LITHIUM-SULFUR DIOPXIDE BATERIES ARE BEING PHASED OUT*Because of a number of incidents resulting in soldier injuries, and the possible venting of toxic and noxious sulfur dioxide gas, the Li/SO2 battery chemistry is losing favor for military applications and is starting to be replaced by Li/MnO2 batteries."_

Does this apply to Surefire? They are presumably the leading supplier of 3v 123 bateries to the military so one would assume thdey are in the vanguard of this transition. Is it possible that the Surefire-initiated lithium price breakthrough was made possible by aiming the Li/SO2 batteries at the civilian and police markets while providing the more lucrative military market with state-of-the-art Li/MnO2 technology?


[/ QUOTE ]
How old is this PDF that you are quoting? Also, do you have any reason to suspect Surefire is doing something like this or is this just pure speculation on your part?


----------



## brightnorm (Mar 15, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

I wasn't able to find that link which I originally saw on CPF, but here's another one to Ultralife:

ULTRALIFE 

The Surefire idea was pure speculation. I have been been very happy with 99%+ of the hundreds of SF 123s I've used over the years and appreciate their pricing breakthrough that has made use of these high-tech lights so much more affordable.

Still, I'd like to know more about which manufacturers are involved with this advanced Lithium chemistry, and whether the preeminent name in military tactical lighting is working with this promising technology.

Brightnorm


----------



## beezaur (Mar 15, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

You can go to Energizer and Duracell websites to get information on the chemistry they use. I think it was Newbie who posted soem links about that. It was in spec sheets for the batteries, I think. Check some of the earlier pages on this thread.

Scott


----------



## brightnorm (Mar 15, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Thanks Scott

BN


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## Size15's (Mar 15, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

The fact that SureFire offer an SF34800-Bulk pallet in their product list as a 'standard' item may give some indication of the sheer quantities they have been supplying.

SureFire supplies many thousands of WeaponLights, not least as part of the US Army’s Rapid Fielding Initiative. SureFire has the infrastructure to supply batteries and Battalion Support Field Maintenance Kits (KMU002's) etc

That I'm aware of, the SF123As the military use are the same ones we civis use.


----------



## KevinL (Mar 15, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

brightnorm, it sounds like marketing. 

Surefire used Duracell batteries for a long time and Duracell has always been very upfront about the fact that they're lithium maganese dioxide. It's right at the top of their datasheet in huge letters. I doubt SF would take a step backwards by switching to an inferior chemistry.. I do know that there's a lot of suspicion when there's a big price drop, but perhaps the case is one of markup, not really cost cutting. Perhaps all along the big names have marked up the cost of the battery substantially so the only thing SF is eroding are the profit margins. But SF has always stated upfront that they are about making the batteries affordable so that we can run the lights.

[ QUOTE ]

The fact that SureFire offer an SF34800-Bulk pallet in their product list as a 'standard' item may give some indication of the sheer quantities they have been supplying.


[/ QUOTE ] 

GROUP BUY!!!!!!!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinser2.gif


----------



## Size15's (Mar 16, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

SureFire SF123A like Duracell DL123A are LiMn02
(Are there any 123A batteries that aren't?)

The way Cameron explained it to me was that SureFire placed a rather large order (understatement) and therefore got a rather good deal. The price the customer pays for SF123As is the price of the batteries plus shipping and handling (transportation to SureFire from the battery factory) and if they are boxed or carded the cost of labour and materials for SureFire to do that.
When you buy SF34800-Bulk pallets they are delivered as they come from the battery factory I believe. That is why when you buy pallets they are slightly cheaper.

The aim of the SF123A battery is to provide the best quality American battery at cost price to the end user.

Al


----------



## brightnorm (Mar 16, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Considering the advantages of Li/MnO2 chemistry how likely is it that a matched pair (Li/Mn02/same mfr/same date) could explode as described in the first post of this thread?

Brightnorm


----------



## beezaur (Mar 16, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

I think the only problem is where batteries are mismatched by state of charge, discharge curve (i.e., brand or type), or if one battery has a defect of some sort (could be from damage).

You can test short circuit current *briefly* and get a good idea if each battery is in good "health" but there will certainly be conditions that are not detectable.

I would set the probability of having a problem with mismatched batteries at "low:" you are more likely than not to get away with it ONCE. Do it a few times and you are more likely than not to have a problem.

I would set the probability of having a problem with matched but untested batteries at "extremely low:" maybe it will happen in your lifetime of flashlight use, but probably not.

I would set the probability of having a problem with matched, tested batteries at "insignificant:" if it has happened, I doubt there is enough data to quantify the risk. Freak accident; God must want to get your attention, or something.

Scott


----------



## SilverFox (Mar 16, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Hello Brightnorm,

The problem comes from not having a matched State Of Charge. If one cell is almost completely drained and the other is fresh, when you turn the light on they try to equalize. That is what leads to these problems.

There is much discussion about how to protect the consumer from this problem. Single cell lights obviously do not have this concern, but in multi cell lights there is this possibility. You may start to see pairs of cells in heat shrink appearing in an effort to minimize the potential for this problem. If you have a 3 cell light, there still can be a problem, but there are more 2 cell lights out there and they have to start somewhere.

The basic safety rules still apply. 

Don't mix brands of cells in a light. 
Don't mix cells of different capacities. 
When you pull cells from a light, throw them away or label them for use in single cell lights only.
Train others that have access to your lights in these simple rules.

You can take this one step further by limiting the use of multi cell lights to outside use and storing them away from combustibles. Also, you can remove the cells from you lights after use and check to see if they are hot and if they are cooling down.

Tom


----------



## brightnorm (Mar 17, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Much excellent advice but a little daunting for someone who has a whole herd of lights penned up in drawers and fully loaded.

Brightnorm


----------



## cheesehead (Mar 17, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Obviously, if you have a question about state of charge, check the voltage on the batteries and it should be with a 1/100 or 2/100 of a volt of each other.


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## SilverFox (Mar 17, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Hello Brightnorm,

What can I say...

With great power, comes responsibility... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Tom


----------



## brightnorm (Mar 19, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Excellent! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

BN


----------



## wojtek_pl (Mar 21, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy - Part II*

So, in short, the conclusion are:
1. DO NOT MIX BATTERIES FROM DIFFERENT PRODUCERS.
2. Do not use cheap batteries as this may turn out to be very expensive.
Just my thoughts form reading the whole thread...


----------



## brightnorm (Mar 21, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy - Part II*

Even when using batteries from the same manufacturer check voltages and dates. "Flash amps" will give you more information than voltage readings.

Brightnorm


----------



## Steve Andrews (Mar 21, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy - Part II*

Another reason to have a working smoke detector in your home.


----------



## VidPro (Mar 21, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy - Part II*

gee i didnt get to put in all my theorization and speculation 
(disclaimer: and that is all this post is, opinion)

i agree with this LOTS
Apologies if this has been answered above, but did the batteries in question explode, or was there a gas build-up contained by a gas-tight light until it suffered a catastrophic failure? 

everyone always wants a SEALED up light that will go 400meters underwater.
if you take the lead off the top of a bullet, it just fizzes 
if you fill up a pipe with all manners of fast burning chemicals, you got fireworks
you gotta Seal it up good to get it to blow up.

and it SEEMS to me this is happening with Lithium more than lithium-ion, so quit basterdizing my favorite cell 

and IF it cant VENT, (or disconnect which happens long before venting), then its GOING to build up pressure
and a lithium-ion needs to have:
a reletive pressure buildup INSIDE it 
COMPARED to the exterior pressure to releace the anode.

Put a li-ion in a Very well sealed up pipe bomb, and if it needed to vent , which would DISCONNECT it and STOP bad chemical processes, it is less likely to do so in a air tight chamber.

the pressure In the flashlight (the batteries exterior) would offset any pressure in the cell, when it came to the pressure switching.

i splained it before in one of my diatribes, the top metal lifts ,expands, domes up, when the pressure in the cell rises, that disconnects the anode.
IF
the pressure around the cell was higher the thing could not move as much, and the anode would not disconnect.

If this could happen magically to MY Li-ion cells i would be DEAD by now 
i have done every method of torture to hundreds of them.
BUT
and this is the key, i couldnt afford a GREAT flashlight, i aint going diving, and california doesnt have problems with water, so ALL of my flashlights have very POOR seals, poor construction, and probably would get wet even if put in a rainstorm.
and
i hate primary cells, gotta have a rechargable.

on the other hand, i just sent out as gifts to the uninitiated all thier flashlights WITH lithium batteries in them.
but i bought the batteries from a SUEable corporate structre  my guess is they are making sure stuff like that is less likely to occur.

Edited 500 times to try and get more accurate statements.


----------



## SilverFox (Mar 21, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy - Part II*

Hello VidPro,

[ QUOTE ]
*VidPro said:*

Apologies if this has been answered above, but did the batteries in question explode, or was there a gas build-up contained by a gas-tight light until it suffered a catastrophic failure? 


[/ QUOTE ]

The cells "rapidly vented with flame" and blew the end cap off the light in the process. The light impacted the cupboard door hard enough to open it, fracture it and the light ended up on the floor near by.

Tom


----------



## VidPro (Mar 21, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy - Part II*

Hi silverFox
well 
i was saying
if a Lithium has a anode pressure Disconnect (like Li-Ion), it may have been inoperable, due to a higher than normal atmospheric pressure in the light.
and not nessisarily caused directally by the battery.

making a safety device inoperable , is not a good thing to do. 

we wouldnt hold down the releace on a pressure cooker
or put a pressure cooker in a 55gal sealed drum, and expect that the releace will work right.

do we discontinue pressure cookers, because some person
defeated the safety device?

do we sue the guy who invented melting lead for wars 

Indeed the battery violently releaced, but the Cause could have as easily been that the cells protections were unable to operate in the conditions.

Conditions, that manufactures undoubtedly warned builders about
in 273 page leagalease trash that nobody reads 
Like Microsoft statements that everyone 
pushes the [I Agree] button, even if they wouldnt agree to 1/2 of that stuff. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


----------



## Dr_Joe (Mar 22, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy - Part II*

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/str.gif Very scary stuff ! 

So basically, I have about 100 little "pipe bombs" all over my house, another 3 dozen potentially explosive batteries, and another half dozen or so "pipe bombs" in my car (in the trunk of course right next to 20 gallons of gasoline) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mpr.gif


----------



## VidPro (Mar 22, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy - Part II*

you mean you live more dangerously than 007, and your not ENJOYING it?
send a few to me /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

you need a danger theme song, and a cool suit.


----------



## Dr_Joe (Apr 4, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy - Part II*

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hahaha.gif
[ QUOTE ]
*VidPro said:*
....you need a danger theme song, and a cool suit. 

[/ QUOTE ] /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crackup.gif


----------



## vhyper007 (May 1, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy - Part II*

eh...

did someone call me?
vhyper007

and all this talk about pipe bombs. BATFE is now probably monitoring CPF closer than some pro Iraqi websites.But mistah, I swears I was jes tryin to blow up that beaver dam on my pond


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## Tombeis (May 25, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy - Part II*

I have used Lithium batteries since 1986. Never had one explode, burn or otherwise self distruct. 

Had a dive light burst from the gas generated by exhausted Alkaline D cells which I failed to remove. No fire no large explosion, just a ruined dive light. 

Vhyper007: It has been my experiance that the best thing to use to remove beaver dams is cordite. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


----------



## BC0311 (May 25, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy - Part II*

Cordite? Surely you jest. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif I don't know where any could even be found since the early days of World War II. It was a late 1800s, very early 1900s British propellant.

I still haven't had a Lithium cell burn or blow up. But a friend did last year with a couple of new, Chinese-made cells in a brand new UK 2L I had bought her. I sent the whole mess to one of the posters on this thread to examine and toss.

Most that I know locally have transitioned to single CR123A celled lights for lights kept loaded. These aren't people with need for an always loaded 2x123 light.

One lady friend some time ago traded her SL Twin Task 2L for the 1L version. As a glovebox light it'll do everything the 2L does, just doesn't throw as far with the incandescent lamp. 

Most all of the lights I use frequently and therefoer keep loaded are single cell lights with a Lithium primary cell or a Lithium-Ion rechargable battery.

I'm not so concerned for one blowing up and hurting me as for one exploding, starting a fire and destroying a house, hotel, airplane or car.


----------



## CyByte (May 30, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy - Part II*

the lights say the batteries are good for 10 years. I have an Inova T2 that will be VERY rarely used since I will be getting the 1 123A version of the light soon. 

Should I take the batteries out of my Inova T2 (2x 123A batteries)? 

I also keep 2 123A batteries in my surefire E2E which is never used just sits on my nightstand most nights next to the peace keeper.


----------



## cave dave (Jun 6, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy - Part II*

Something I didn't see any mention of in this long thread was that the light in question was *probably left on!*/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif 

I believe the wife in question turned the light on and it went dim after a few minutes, most likely it went out after that. In a non-flashaholic mind off is off right? Make sure you turn those lights off folks, and if the batteries seem dead take em out and throw them away.

I also was wondering about the wisdom of putting burning lithium batteries under the sink to put them out. Sounds like explosion number two in the making. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif


----------



## ckthorp (Jun 13, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy - Part II*

Anyone notice the following in Energizer's Product Safety Data Sheet?

"Mechanical Containment: Containment of this battery in a manner that obstructs or defeats the safety vent or electrical disconnect mechanisms designed into this battery can result in fire and/or explosion and cause personal injury and device damage. This battery is not designed to be potted, enclosed in hermetic overpackaging, or sealed by any means that prevents free operation of the designed safety mechanisms." (http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/lithiummangdioxide_psds.pdf)

This seems to indicate that sealed CR123 flashlights are a no-no...

Also noteworthy, the maximum reverse charge current of an EL123 is 2 MICROamps (from the EL123 datasheet http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/el123.pdf).

This seems to indicate that mixing batteries with different charge levels is as much of a no-no as other forum posters have indicated. 2uA is a really tiny amount of current.


----------



## Canuke (Jul 7, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy - Part II*

I'm wondering if the older X5's present a greater hazard for those of us who use them to finish off batteries that are no longer able to drive big lights like the L4.

Unlike the current X5T with its tailcap, the older units are essentially very tall aluminum cups or thimbles, only open at the mouth -- and that's plugged up with a solidly threaded and O-ringed head. I've always noticed the lithium smell more readily with my two X5's then I have with any of my other 2x123 units (of which I suddenly seem to have a lot).


----------



## jashhash (Aug 1, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy - Part II*

so now we need venting holes in those water proof flashlights? Imagine the lawsuits waiting to happen to the creators of all those lithium lights out there without vent holes.


----------



## nitebrite (Aug 4, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy - Part II*

there are going to be bad 123's. probably made in china(no offense to chinese people from me). i hope the person that bought the 50 cent 123's didn't also buy the $2 smoke alarm at save-u-lot! on the whole i wouldn't sweat it. the only reason the pics got posted and scared so many people is because this is a collectors forum. you know how many other consumer/pro-sumer ddevices blow up EVERYday and don't even make the news? so if 10 batteries out of 50 million(just a wild speculation) blow up it is a very low percentage. like people that won't go on an airplane because they are 'unsafe'. cars are WAY less safe than airplanes. and i doubt 123's or li-ions are any less safe than alkalines.

however! dont be dumb and test fate! don't mix brands. don't mix old and new. don't load backwards(even if it still lights!).don't buy cheap brands unless they are surefire on the web.

i bet way more 15 cent aaa alkaline's have popped than 123's! simply because there ARE way more 15 cent aaa's than 123's!

nitebrite.


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## SilverFox (Aug 4, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy - Part II*

Hello Nitebrite,

While I tend to agree with you, the fact remains that there is more energy in these cells and the "pop" observed with alkaline's and Nickle cells has the potential to turn into a "bang with flame" with these cells.

Tom


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## nitebrite (Aug 5, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy - Part II*

so are these 123's something to really worry about? or is it in line with my analogy about airplanes? ie. it doesnt happen that often but when it does everyone hears about it.

how many times has it been documented that this has happened?


nitebrite.


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## SilverFox (Aug 5, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy - Part II*

Hello Nitebrite,

I believe it happens more often than airplanes, but not very often... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif 

I recently read that there have been 83 cases of cell phone batteries exploding in the last two years. I have no numbers for flashlights or cameras.

Tom


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## zelda (Aug 29, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy - Part II*

Here a small video with Li-Ion cells without protection....
(Overcharging with 6V and 6A to accelerate process)

http://www.batteryshop.de/battery/akkutest/akkutest.html


enjoy


----------



## SilverFox (Aug 29, 2005)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy - Part II*

Hello Zelda,

That video demonstrates that the rapid part of "rapid venting with flame" can be very rapid (and perhaps explosive).

A few comments...

The results would have been similar, but less spectactular, charging to 4.5 volts, but would have taken longer.

The safe limit for charging Li-Ion cells (so far...) is 1C with suggestions that it is easier on the cell if you reduce that to 0.7C. The cell(s) in the video were rated at 800 mAh and charged at 6000 mA. That works out to 7.5C. You may be able to get similar results by simply using that charge rate and charging to 4.2 volts...

Finally, 100 C (212 F) is really hot. Cell damage occurs at temperatures in the 80 C (176 F) range, and I prefer to stop my testing when temperatures reach the 60 C (140 F) range.

All in all, this is a good reminder that we need to keep an eye on things when we are recharging Li-Ion chemistry.

Tom


----------



## pelks (Oct 2, 2005)

I had a similar problem with my King Pelican submersible light when after a night dive one evening I stored the light in my lounge overnight and early the next morning I heard a big BANG!
Got up and found the light all over the lounge. 
Luckily no one was injured.
What I think happened is that a little sea water entered the light and corroded some of the cells coursing a gas buildup.
Although I was using D size Alkaline cells this goes to show what can happen with gas buildup from cells in sealled lights.
Maybe lights should have one way valves to vent gases!!
RY3, glad no one was hurt.


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Oct 2, 2005)

See also these threads in the electronics/batteries forum:

Chinese Lithium Batteries: Explosion Danger?

CR123A meltdown in PM6: What happened?

And thanks for changing the title of this thread. I never glanced at it till I saw the new title.


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## assassin337 (Oct 12, 2005)

well this is a noob question but what are the dangers with a regular battery such as duracell(i know i spelled that wrong).


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## tron3 (Dec 5, 2005)

Dear LORD! :wow: 


You mean the batteries popped an aluminum battery cap? Looks like an m-80 hit it.


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## missionaryman (Jan 4, 2006)

so shouldn't this NOT happen with primary lithium? I thought it was only rechargeables the did this...


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## Manzerick (Feb 12, 2006)

We really need the full scoop!! RIP M6!


How long were they there? 


How old were the batteries and what brand(s)?


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## HiltiHome (Feb 13, 2006)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*



Mags said:


> I think these kind of accidents might encourage manufacturers to start designing their lights so that they might be vented in some way. That would be quite a challenge though.


I own myself a light with hydrogen catalyst-pellets and umbrella-vent...
Its the Streamlight Propoly 4AA Luxeon


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## martytoo (Feb 18, 2006)

In reply to Ron,

I believe you concerning the batteries not being mixed. I posted in another area concerning explosion issues and then found this thread. I bought a pair of inexpensive (2 for $20 at Sam's Club) Cyclops halogen lights that are powered by 123 type batteries. I was using one when upgrading one of our PCs. The light went out and I continued working while using an LED flashlight. About 1 or 2 hours later I heard a pop and hoped against hope that the computer wasn't the source. After some head scratching I realized that the source was the Cyclops.

I threw out the flashlight but will try to retrieve the batteries for a picture. They are outdoors near my house. I was more than a bit paranoid that night. In addition to the noise and heat there was a horrible odor from the explosion. The light itself remained intact which was nice.

The point of this post is to assure those reading the forum that these were the original Cyclops branded batteries. What I think happened is that I left the switch in the on position and one battery charged the other which caused a heat the gas build up.

I have removed all 123 lights from my car... and I am a bit paranoid about where I store these. I don't want them to be turned on inadvertantly.


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## SilverFox (Feb 18, 2006)

Hello Missionaryman,



missionaryman said:


> so shouldn't this NOT happen with primary lithium? I thought it was only rechargeables the did this...



If you try to recharge a primary cell, this can be the results.  Rechargeable cells also have this problem if they are damaged, or if the charge rate is too fast, or if the cells are overcharged.

Never mix old and new cells, or cells of different brands in a multi cell light. It is just not worth the risk.

Tom


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## SilverFox (Feb 18, 2006)

Hello Martytoo,

Thank you for sharing your experience. I look forward to seeing your pictures...

Many people are very concerned about using up every last bit of power in their cells. In a single cell light, this is OK, but if the practice carries over to multi cell lights, there may be similar problems as those pointed out in this thread.

I store my new CR123 cells in a fireproof safe on a steel shelf, away from combustible materials. I am not paranoid, just safe... 

Tom


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## martytoo (Feb 18, 2006)

Here you go. Notice how the bottom of the left cell looks indented in the pictures. Also the right cell is bulging due to the force of the explosion. I am happy that these are not as intense as what happened to Ron.


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## roguesw (Feb 19, 2006)

i just bought some panasonic 123 cells from hk, available in packs of four, i bought 20 of them and found out i had 3 leaking cells from 3 different packs
each of them were leaking battery acid and had a small puncture mark 
i didnt notice the puncture mark until i removed the battery sleve
beware, even new battery packs from the factory might have some that are leaking so check new batteries as well.
just a thought


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## MetalCastr (Feb 21, 2006)

Makes me glad I didn't buy a lithium Lux V flashlight (and I thought That would never happen!)


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## NickelPlate (Feb 21, 2006)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Kind of brings new meaning to the name "Surefire". 

[/ QUOTE ]

If you dig, there is a story around here about a Nuclear plant that issued SureFire lights. After the wall locker burned, they pulled all SureFire lights from use. And this is not the only case....


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## NickelPlate (Feb 21, 2006)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*



Ray_of_Light said:


> To measure flash-amps, set your DMM on 20 Amp scale, and measure the current flowing through the 123 cell.
> Remember to keep the reading shorter than one or two seconds.
> 
> Anthony




You'll likely fry your meter doing that. Most meters that have a 20 Amp scale are not fused as such. Maybe not a big deal with a cheapo meter, but I sure wouldn't want to try it with my $400 Fluke.

Dave


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## cratz2 (Feb 21, 2006)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy - Part II*



BC0311 said:


> Cordite? Surely you jest. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif I don't know where any could even be found since the early days of World War II. It was a late 1800s, very early 1900s British propellant.



Sorry for the very late reply, but I have two cases of .303 British ammo loaded with Cordite. I'm not in a hurry to take it all apart, but I certainly know where probably a few pounds of it is!


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## Windscale (Mar 22, 2006)

I am new to this website. I use almost entirely 123A rechargeables for my torches. I think the word to always remember is "SAFETY". 

Most 123As, and in fact, AAs, AAAs, Buttons and the lot, are now made in China. Yes, even the big names such as Duracell and Energizer are no exceptions.

I think the following guidelines, many based on earlier views expressed in this thread, should be seriously observed.

1. Never mix batteries of different brands or of different degrees of exhaustions.
2. Change or recharge entire sets once the light becomes dimmer. Don't wait until the light goes out or by trying to turn to a lower setting and wait till the light dims out completely.
3. Try not to turn your light on for longer than necessary. Always turn off when they become hot. If you need to use a light for longer periods, best to carry two or more lights and use them in turn. 
4. Check your batteries weekly, or sooner, and everytime before you go out intending to use the lights. Check for leakages and indents at top and bottom. Some designs which turn on the light by turning the tailcap, e.g. 6P, can cause the batteries to be too tightly squeezed. Given time this may cause indents. especially with cheaper Chinese torches.
5. Take care where you leave your lights normally. If you have a light in the kitchen, as in the case in this thread, keep clear of the oven ,cookers, tabs and any known sources of heat and water. And, like drugs, keep out of reach of children (and dogs and cats).

Accidents can always happen. The name of the game, however, is to take all necessary precautions so as to avoid them. An instrument can always be dangerous if the master of it is not too careful.

I hope I have been of some help.


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## hogx1 (Mar 22, 2006)

*Re: A Little Accident. Enjoy.*

Everything has pretty much already been said. But I would just like to add those jalapeños chips (on the counter) are damn good...


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## youngcollecter (Apr 8, 2006)

Wow thats Catostrophic!


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## hank (Apr 11, 2006)

Message to self --

Check the two Pentax IIQ-Zoom waterproof 35mm cameras, as well as all the flashlights.
One of those two Pentax cameras uses two of these lithium 3v cells. And it's Waterproof.

I haven't used either one in about five years but they still had the clock date/time working and exposure count showing six months ago when I moved them -- into the sealed OtterBoxes, with new packs of the dessicant. The gas-tight boxes with the pressure relief valve on them to let me open them again if the air pressure's risen since I closed them up tight.

I bet the Pentax will suck those batteries completely dry, too.

Memo to self -- use tongs ....

YIKES!


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## StuGatz (Apr 14, 2006)

Just stumbled upon this. Thanks for the info. Stay safe.

Stuart


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## srvctec (Apr 15, 2006)

After reading this entire thread, I'm thinking that all batteries should be stored in military surplus steel ammo containers. This would contain the explosion/fire and keep it from spreading.


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## NewBie (Apr 22, 2006)

Thats not all that bad of an idea, for a just in case scenario.


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## dieselducy (Apr 28, 2006)

Hi there, I have only read up to page 3 and ill read the rest later. I HOPE the battery mfgr replaced your light  like they say "we will repair or replace any device damaged by this battery" I have heard that lithium batteies can be dangerous:

http://www.dot.gov/affairs/rspa2100.htm

although i have 2 cameras powerd by cr123 batteries, and i have never had any probs. I HAVE however had an energizer blow up in my minimag.. when i opened the back of it. it sounded like a gun and the cap flew across the room.. Im sorry to hear about this and it makes me think: my camera is a lithium ion, my mobile phone, even my walkman uses LI ion..


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## Keltec (May 2, 2006)

dieselducy said:


> I HAVE however had an energizer blow up in my minimag.. when i opened the back of it. it sounded like a gun and the cap flew across the room..


What Energizer was it? Alkaline ? Lithium ? Why did it blow up ?


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## lightcacher (May 18, 2006)

*Exploding Flashlights?*

Saw this on the Geocaching.Com website. Has anybody ever experienced this?


----------



## Ras_Thavas (May 18, 2006)

*Re: Exploding Flashlights?*

Discussed at length in this thread:

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=78843


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## JonSidneyB (May 18, 2006)

*Re: Exploding Flashlights?*

It has happened before. I was surprised to see a duracell in the photo. I am not sure if the second battery looks the way it does due to it being burned or or not. The second cell looks like a litium Ion cell to me.


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## NewBie (May 18, 2006)

*Re: Exploding Flashlights?*

There have been a number of flashlights that have exploded, all I've heard of, were using primary lithiums, and all the ones I heard about were 123 based flashlights. It also seems that they have all used 2 or 3 lithium primary 123 cells.

Luckily, so far, nobody's house has burned down due to the 123 primary lithiums yet.


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## brightnorm (May 18, 2006)

This is all pretty disturbing. I have 6 large drawers full of lights, many with multiple 123's, and my compulsive Flashaholic nature delights in selecting one (or 5) at random and lighting them up. I suppose I'll have to remove the cells from all but a few, though I hate to do that. At least I can keep my multiple-celled LiON lights primed and ready, or can I?

Brightnorm


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## Alloy Addict (May 18, 2006)

*Re: Exploding Flashlights?*



lightcacher said:


> Saw this on the Geocaching.Com website. Has anybody ever experienced this?



So what kind of batteries are those in that thread?



JonSidneyB said:


> It has happened before. I was surprised to see a duracell in the photo. I am not sure if the second battery looks the way it does due to it being burned or or not. The second cell looks like a litium Ion cell to me.



That's what it looks like to me. That makes me think "user error" is at fault more than faulty cells.


----------



## SilverFox (May 19, 2006)

*Re: Exploding Flashlights?*

I have sent Tom and Donna an email to try to get more facts on their experience.

I will let everyone know what I find out.

Tom


----------



## NewBie (Jun 24, 2006)

*Re: Exploding Flashlights?*



SilverFox said:


> I have sent Tom and Donna an email to try to get more facts on their experience.
> 
> I will let everyone know what I find out.
> 
> Tom




Have you heard anything yet Tom?


----------



## SilverFox (Jun 25, 2006)

*Re: Exploding Flashlights?*

Hello Newbie,

In spite of my several efforts to contact them, I have heard nothing back from them...

Tom


----------



## NewBie (Jun 25, 2006)

Darn.


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## sORe-EyEz (Jul 28, 2006)

pity tt d local agent cant didn't honor Pelican's "u break it, we replace it 4 free" where i m at (ttz S'pore) many mths ago!  

d agent wanted me 2 pay abt 50% of d total price to replace a faulty LED bulb module. i m a fan of their lights (i hav recently bought d M6 2390), but dun like how d agent handled d situation. 

does d warranty oni apply 2 selected countries?  can any1 here "shed some light" on tis issue.


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## Pydpiper (Jul 29, 2006)

sORe-EyEz said:


> pity tt d local agent cant didn't honor


I read this ten times and still don't understand it.. Is there somewhere you can guide me to translate it?
Thanks in advance.
David


----------



## TooManyGizmos (Jul 29, 2006)

:huh2:

.... Sorry .... I can't translate gutter gang slang ..........





...... TMG


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## sORe-EyEz (Jul 30, 2006)

it's Singlish  (S'pore ver of english)....  

how come u guys get spare parts for free while i hav 2 pay so much for them? d worse thing is that the agent assumed i got it from an unlicensed store w/o even checking backing up their claims. 

the warranty applies only in some countries? 




*newbie in bad mood, still fuming mths later*


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## cyberspyder (Aug 3, 2006)

a similar thing happened to me last night. i was using an Ultrafire 6V Xenon with some el cheapo batteries included in the flashlight. turned it on for about 15 minutes and the body of the light got really warm (not burning hot). then, i heard a loud pop, and found out that the rubber tail cap had flown off, and the bulb blew. later, i found out i fried just about everything, because of the smell given off by burnt out electronics (smelled the same thing when i acidentally overloaded a 3V LED with 18V). as i carefully unscrewed the tailcap, i could see that just sbout everything was scorched, turn black by the battery residue (or fire???). the batteries itself were black with the caps blown off. luckily, i wasn't hurt, but it looks like i need a new light.

Brendan


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## choppers (Aug 18, 2006)

sure glad that no one was hurt......could have been a much worse outcome......thanks for the information


----------

