# Cheap Lights = Beware !



## old4570 (Feb 2, 2010)

Ok , I say beware , because the simple truth is , if you buy at a low price point , just how much quality can be built into the light ?

Lets start at $15 or less shipped to your door : 
Shipping cost = Would say $5 be fair ? its just an example , but you get the idea . Then the re-seller has to make a profit = Now were talking $10 , lets say $3 profit for arguments sake , now its a $7 light ..

The manufacturer needs to make a profit , lets say $2 ...
That $15 shipped to your door light is now a $5 light from the manufacturer .

I hope you get the idea , when you buy cheap , your getting cheap ! And in doing so you the buyer , are taking a risk , a very well founded one , that there may not be a hell of a lot of quality built into this light . 

Now thats not to say that you may not get one thats brilliant , the bargain of the century , but the odds are equal , that you may get the dog of the year as well ... 

You may seriously want to consider spending another 5-10 Dollars so that at least 5-10 Dollars of quality is built into the light , and then you have to ask yourself if that is enough ! 

Cheap lights are great for those with DIY skills , any problems encountered are usually easily fixed , and when the light has been trouble shot , may very well last as long as those on the other end of the market . 

Did anyone actually live through the 70's when a lot of rubbish came from Japan , the 80's when rubbish came from Taiwan , 90's the Philippines , 2000 China - India - Pakistan ? 

Point is , at that $15 price , you may very well be looking at a $5 to manufacture light , and your expecting quality ? 
Please remember , you buy cheap your most likely getting cheap , so please bear that in mind when buying at the lower end of the market .


----------



## carrot (Feb 2, 2010)

Oh, don't forget quality LED's are about $4/ea from Cree.


----------



## DM51 (Feb 2, 2010)

DX Graveyard - just a few examples from many hundreds of similar posts we've seen here on CPF...


----------



## astro4554 (Feb 2, 2010)

"Buy cheap, buy twice" has always been a good axiom.

There are times when a bargain is found at a relatively low price from a dealer that simply "piles them high and sells them cheap". Many businesses in the "First" world have been founded on this principle.

Tesco springs to mind in the UK, although they are not as cheap since they became virtually omnipotent over here.

The Chinese understand that quality control costs money, that's why they do so much better at it when we are prepared to pay for it, than when we are not, and thence buy things from the likes of DX and KD. A lottery is a tax on fools, but sometimes the fool gets lucky.

Still, it's always nice to find a bargain, even if at the expense of a little pocket wasted money.


----------



## old4570 (Feb 2, 2010)

Dont get me wrong , I love my cheap lights .
But there are pitfalls to buying cheap , and people need to be aware of them .
It helps if they buy wisely . 

Buy lights that are by design easy to fix/trouble shoot .
Easy to buy parts for [ P60 Hosts ] 
And do the research . 

I love cheap P60 hosts most of all , its a well established design that by now is hard to get wrong , and so easy to work on . 
I own 18 P60 Hosts , all on the cheaper end of the scale , and none of them have been faulty . 

And any problems that arise are either easy to fix , or its the driver .. 
For me , 2 lights had faulty drivers , a Smallsun and a SAIK .. which would = about 5% or maybe less as a % of the cheap lights Ive purchased . 

I can live with that ...


----------



## how2 (Feb 2, 2010)

old4570 said:


> I hope you get the idea , when you buy cheap , your getting cheap ! And in doing so you the buyer , are taking a risk , a very well founded one , that there may not be a hell of a lot of quality built into this light.


 It's all about economies of scale and labour cost. Mostly the Raw materials are the same price around the world, labour costs is what counts in the manufacturing process.



old4570 said:


> You may seriously want to consider spending another 5-10 Dollars so that at least 5-10 Dollars of quality is built into the light , and then you have to ask yourself if that is enough !


Or is taken as profit by the manufacturer or is taken up in the supply chain. It may never be put back into materials cost(i.e quality)




old4570 said:


> Did anyone actually live through the 70's when a lot of rubbish came from Japan , the 80's when rubbish came from Taiwan , 90's the Philippines , 2000 China - India - Pakistan ?


Yes I did, in Aus you may have got the B grade products. Here in the U.K the Japs were killing off the Motorcycle industry, we were relying on Brand names and Brand loyalty. The Japs produced better Quality Motorcycles at a lower price point. People still said that they were no good. Look what happened to the motorcycle industry in the U.K. 



old4570 said:


> Point is , at that $15 price , you may very well be looking at a $5 to manufacture light , and your expecting quality ?
> Please remember , you buy cheap your most likely getting cheap , so please bear that in mind when buying at the lower end of the market .



The same can be said for Brand name goods when you buy an Nike shoes . You pay for the Name not the quality in most cases, it's all about marketing hype. The Nike AIr max costs £110 buy in the U.K, Manufacturing cost are only £5 in total. Someone is profiteering. It's definitely not the poor workers in these countries. 



carrot said:


> Oh, don't forget quality LED's are about $4/ea from Cree.


 When you say $4 each is this wholesale price or retail.

In the U.K i can purchase 1000 xp-g r4 for £2000. which is $3200.
therefore £2 or $3.2 each.

It's all about economies of scale and labour cost. Mostly the Raw materials are the same price around the world, labour costs is what counts in the manufacturing process.

Do not worry about buying a cheap lights because your are probably putting food on someone's table.


----------



## underdunk (Feb 2, 2010)

So if a newbie wanted a cheap light that he wouldn't have to worry about having to fix or fiddle with, what brands are generally of better quality? Would one assume that a Romisen be a safer bet than an Akoray any of those *fire branded lights?


----------



## old4570 (Feb 2, 2010)

Solarforce = :candle:

Actually , as the price goes up , so does quality = Generally speaking ..

Its not just material choice : Its also components ..

Generally speaking , lets take my little smallsun as an example .. $10.55 Shipped .

The body and the LED are fine : 

The heatsink , or lack there off , is just a threaded tube that the led and driver are pressed into each end . Cheap and worse nasty ! 

Now , if you buy a light costing a few dollars more , you get an actual heatsink , the led may be glued on , and the driver soldered in place , and the driver may last longer than a few days ..

Actually cough up $20 for a similar light , and you may get one thats put together with what look like pride , seems to be quality all around , and has [ maybe ] gold plated springs . And has programmable modes and thermal protection ...  

Again , do the research ! If you go the cheap option , and leave the manufacturer with no room to build in some quality , what do you expect . 
That 5-10 will get you better components , and maybe a better contractor . 
One would hope !!! Im not saying you cant buy a dog for more , sure you can , Im just saying , can you compare a $10 light to a $20 light ..
If you look hard enough you can buy lights for under $4 , and I have ..
But you should be fully aware of what you are buying ...
All Im saying is go in with your eyes open , dont open them in amazement when the package arrives ....


----------



## how2 (Feb 2, 2010)

underdunk said:


> So if a newbie wanted a cheap light that he wouldn't have to worry about having to fix or fiddle with, what brands are generally of better quality? Would one assume that a Romisen be a safer bet than an Akoray any of those *fire branded lights?



When you go to the sites that sell these lights read the reviews and most definitely read the forums which are more accurate. Use common sense. There are great cheap lights out there for $15 or less. The quality is geting better. Don't forget it's your hard earned cash that you are spending.


----------



## bogeymachine (Feb 2, 2010)

can we talk about $15 Solarforce L2Ms that I think are counterfeit or 2nds?


----------



## old4570 (Feb 2, 2010)

how2 said:


> It's all about economies of scale and labour cost. Mostly the Raw materials are the same price around the world, labour costs is what counts in the manufacturing process.
> 
> Yes and no = labour cost is a factor , but greed is the larger factor
> 
> ...



Unfortunately , its a lot to do with the margin , a lot o manufacturers move production to save on labor cost to keep the profit margin . Also many manufacturers refused to modernize in the 80's and 90's , so found themselves un-able or un-willing to compete by 2000 , and just moved there antiquated 1950/60's machines to china or mexico .. Or some other 3rd world country [ Pakistan - India , Indonesia etc ] 

Its cheaper to move your labor intensive factory than modernize and keep jobs in your own country , the sad truth of modern greed .

And one of the best examples of this is the US Steel industry ... They refused to modernize , and by the 90's it was just way cheaper to outsource ...

As for English bikes , the manufacturers become complacent , did not modernize , The Japanese Copied and improved , its what they do best . 
If you dont move forward , you fall behind !


----------



## Norm (Feb 2, 2010)

bogeymachine said:


> can we talk about $15 Solarforce L2Ms that I think are counterfeit or 2nds?


Well now there's a cost saving R&D $0 
Norm


----------



## old4570 (Feb 2, 2010)

bogeymachine said:


> can we talk about $15 Solarforce L2Ms that I think are counterfeit or 2nds?



The ones on DX or KD , ??

Yes , I got one , just for the heck of it ..

There OK , not as good as ??? Real Solarforce made one [ if there counterfeit ] , but certainly more than usable .. And if all you do is replace the battery [ on and off with the tail cap ] you wont really notice . 
+ Not quite the same output as the real deal either , I think the drivers are 900mA ones , or at least mine was [ single mode ] .

But for $15 , its worth $15 , every cent of it .. Mine was , no buyers remorse . Just dont expect the same tolerances in the fits , as this one will be a little more generous . So if you demand perfection , the L2p might be better . 

Bottom line , its a usable torch and if mine is anything to go bye , should last a long time and offer good service . It is a $15 flashlight , so there is the possibility , you might get one thats not 100% .

How many packets of cigarettes is $15 , its like one movie ticket these days . 
So ?


----------



## T0RN4D0 (Feb 3, 2010)

Er. Shipping from china costs about 1$ for a 15$ flashlight. 

And while the resellers around here won't take anything less then a 300% price increase, the Chinese for example, know that they won't sell anything for that much. Thats why they do it the other way around, and sell it dirt cheap, but because of that they sell that much more. Its harder to ship out 20 lights and get the same profit as grossly overcharging for 1, but it brings home the bacon. 

And of course big companies don't pay 4$ for an emitter.


All that being said, buying a $15 light here in my country will get you a light that manufacturer sold for about $3. Ordering a $15 light from china, will get me a light that manufacturer probably put out for about 9$. 

Yes, it is still a $9 light. For that you get the head, with lens, reflector, emitter, driver, body and a switch, assembled. QC is virtually non-existent, i will give you that. But if you test it, check out the soldering joints, thermal conductivity and tighten everything up, there really isn't that much to go wrong. Of course, you wouldn't bet your life on an untested $15 light. But for every day use spending $200 on a body alone (the part that chinese manufacturer produce for $1 and gets the job done just as good) is something not many people will do. For most people even the 20-30$ spent for a decent knock-off light is too much. 

Might as well go and tell people not to drive in the cheap $15k cars, when a $400k Maybach or even a modest $100k Audi A8 will be much better.  In reality, a lot of people will just buy some used car that will get the job done, and live with a few more auto mechanic visits and a lower safety rating. Its not about them not knowing that a 100 times more expensive car isn't better, its about them having other priorities to spend it on.


----------



## amigafan2003 (Feb 3, 2010)

Personally I find posting a topic with the title "Cheap lights - beware" in a budget light section to be in slighlty poor taste.

We're all aware of the advantages and disadvantages of budget lights - I'd rather let the individual topics raised against individual lights do the talking about quality, rather than a "tar all with the same brush" post.


----------



## IMSabbel (Feb 3, 2010)

I also dont like the title.

It seems people sometimes lose the grasp for what money can buy. 
By personal limit on what to spend for a light is around $100, but i have total understanding for somebody whose is at $20.

For $25 you can get a toaster, and el cheapo electric hand-drill, an electric knife, some nice electric kettle, etc.

All those things require more resources, more shipping coast (bulky and heavier) and more manual work to produce.

A led light, in the simplest case of s twisty, is just a 2-piece aluminium tube with a single assemble put in front.

The reason for the shoddy quality is most likely caused by the fact that even for $15 they still make money from the lights.
Other mass produced goods of equal complexity usually have higher QC levels.

You wont get nice finishes, square threads, AR coated windows, etc, but there is really nothing that prevents anybody from building a perfectly workable led light for less than $10 total production cost.


----------



## LeifUK (Feb 3, 2010)

amigafan2003 said:


> Personally I find posting a topic with the title "Cheap lights - beware" in a budget light section to be in slighlty poor taste.
> 
> We're all aware of the advantages and disadvantages of budget lights - I'd rather let the individual topics raised against individual lights do the talking about quality, rather than a "tar all with the same brush" post.



That is my feeling too, hence my reason for starting a survey of a popular budget light. I have no idea how good or bad the QC control is on these lights, but just posting "They're all crap" or "They're brilliant" is uninformative.


----------



## jk037 (Feb 3, 2010)

I'm also getting sick of seeing the same members posting the same garbage about cheap lights.


Let me make it clear...

Most of us KNOW and ACCEPT that DX et al don't have much/anything in the way of QC
This brings an element of chance into it - that bargain light may be a cracker, it may be a dog...
Nevertheless, we also know that with a little tinkering we can often achieve similar performance to a "big brand" light at a fraction of the cost...
... which is useful for those people whose flashlight budget is very small...
... and just plain fun for nerds like me who actually LIKE to tinker with, modify and improve their lights!
If all else fails, although the process takes time, the collective opinion is that DX will replace faulty lights eventually.
And most CPFers, whether their flashlight collection is worth $20 or $20000, understand where someone's life may depend upon it, a cheap light is not a good idea!
So please can we stop hearing the same tired old stating-the-bleedin'-obvious crap? If you think that all DX lights are trash, then say so, ONCE, and thereafter just keep your nose out of threads on this subject!

This particularly applies to _*a certain Moderator*_ who really ought to know better than to use his/her "authority" to ride roughshod over the opinions of anyone who dares disagree with his/her own opinion (and seems to think all topics regarding budget lights should be unceremoniously and indiscriminately amalgamated into a single thread, whereas near-identical threads discussing expensive lights are left alone).


----------



## ragweed (Feb 3, 2010)

I have a 15 buck Fenix E01 but, I don't consider it cheaply made at all. If anything it is a real quality light & made very good & tuff.


----------



## CampingLED (Feb 3, 2010)

I must admit that I did not read all the posts in detail, but did a quick text search on some of the things that I wanted to say.

how2, you are a wise person and share my thoughts (your posts came up on my search). If I started a new thread with "Do not buy Surefire, it is over priced" it would have been closed in less than a day with many, many comments (both positive and negative). I am busy with a headlamp and it gives me great satisfaction. Friends did the lathe work for me and compared to my cheap lights it is not even close to the quality. 

I thought many times that it would be nice if I can put this nice light into production and have more advanced manufacturing techniques freely available.

Do I need a custom made titanium light to EDC and drop a few times per day on a concrete floor. My "cheap" SS light is holding up very well and I do not want to replace it. Has it failed me? Not yet (could be because of my "cheap" driver mod that took a few minutes and cost $2 for parts. Do I want a custom made titanium light? Will be nice to have, but i.t.o. practicality it may not be used that much.


----------



## baterija (Feb 3, 2010)

We ll there is the old saying you get what you pay for...which in my opinion is 

We know that price seems to affect perceived pleasure in wine, even when it's the same wine. It's easy to find some amazingly subjective phrases in reviews here that probably have more to do with preconceptions before purchase (whether based on brand aura, price, etc.) than any verifiable concrete difference. I've even seen statements like the anodizing felt like it was thicker and stronger.

I do believe that *generally you can't get more than you pay for* though. Clearances, business decisions to use a product as a loss leader, and similar circumstances aside. At the very bottom of the price list there will be lights that make large sacrifices in design and manufacture to hit those price points. At the other end of the scale there can be diminishing returns where extra production cost produces less real difference. Given the simplicity of lights in most cases it's not hard to hit what I still consider "budget" and be a sound design. 

Some of the choices made to hit lower price points don't necessarily even reflect choices that affect reliability or cause us to need to beware. Romisen, while apparently doing better on quality issues than some budget brands, tend to go with with lower binned emitters and single mode drivers. It's one way to cut costs that doesn't necessarily reflect unreliability. 

Sorting the wheat from the large quantities of chaff becomes important. We do need to beware. It's why I am glad there's the new budget forum so we can shine a better light on what's out there.


----------



## old4570 (Feb 3, 2010)

Well , if I have offended some one - bad luck ...
Some times the truth hurts , so please read carefully ...

You can not possibly compare a $15 shipped light to one costing double that or more ... 

My warning was simply for people to be aware that buying cheap is RISKY and may reward you with a bite on the *** ! 

This forum is full of folks who went cheap , and are crying foul ! 
They went in with there eyes closed to the possible pit falls ..
Again , I love my cheap lights - I buy them all the time - And I am fully aware that I am buying cheap , and what it might entail ... 

The warning is not about the lights , but your awareness to the possible pitfalls of doing so . 

Its just like buying a used car , if you dont have a clue , you will most likely end up with a junker .. Its not just Buyer Beware , its be aware ! 
When you buy a lottery ticket , you know your going to lose , when you buy cheap electronics , you should be aware , that you MAY lose ! 

If you buy a cheap TV ? What do you expect ?
If you buy a cheap stereo ? What do you expect ? 
Cheap clothes , cheap shoes , cheap anything ? 

So Beware - or Be aware ! 

And - for the last time , I love cheap lights , buy them all the time .. and Im fully aware of the possible pitfalls of doing so ... 

I have spare switches [ no fault of the lights so far ] and spare drivers [ doing mods ] so have no fear of any problems I might be buying [ and spare emitters ] .. What ever I get , I can fix ..


----------



## Norm (Feb 3, 2010)

old4570 said:


> My warning was simply for people to be aware that buying cheap is RISKY and may reward you with a bite on the *** !


Oh I hate it when someone bites my donkey. 
Norm


----------



## LeifUK (Feb 3, 2010)

old4570 said:


> Well , if I have offended some one - bad luck ...
> Some times the truth hurts , so please read carefully ...
> 
> You can not possibly compare a $15 shipped light to one costing double that or more ...
> ...



Do you know how many lights are sold by DX, and other HK sites, and how many are faulty? I doubt it. 

When you buy from a US/UK seller, they first have to cover their overheads, and then add on a bit for profit. So the total price is:



The price from the Chinese supplier.
The cost of maintaining and hosting a web site,.
The cost of hiring office space.
Employee costs, including sick leave, pension etc.
The cost of servicing warranty repairs, such as sending duds back to the supplier.
Profit.
These are all at high US/UK prices, as we have a high standard of living, and high labour costs. Hence the sum of costs 2 to 5 are probably much larger than the actual price from the Chinese supplier. So the statement that a $30 light bought from a reputable US supplier is far superior to a $15 light bought from a Chinese supplier is too simplistic. Budget $40 and you'll get a Quark Mini AA including shipping. 

Of course from a US/UK dealer you get (hopefully) better warranty support, and better QC. Though the UK dealer I bought a light from could not even be bothered to reply to emails. According to people here, DX do replace faulty lights but it is not an easy process. I'm sure some of the lights sold by DX are not much good. But some are very good. 

Your comments on clothes etc are misleading. Price is often not a reliable measure of quality. Buy lights and other car/bike gear from one well known UK shop, and you can guarantee you'll pay a lot, and get crap. More often than not items are sold under various brand names, with a wide range of prices, but are made by the same people. 

As an aside, I buy tea from China. The amount that I pay for postage from mainland China is LESS than I pay when ordering the same tea from the UK (my home country). Beats me how that can be true. And the quality is FAR superior. Chinese tea bought in the UK tea is almost always expensive and poor quality.


----------



## amigafan2003 (Feb 3, 2010)

> This forum is full of folks who went cheap , and are crying foul !


For every thread you show me, I'll show you another thread where someone has bought a "premium" light, it's broken and has been dissatisfied with the customer service they have recd trying to get it fixed.

In fact, I'll probably have more threads because if a DX light breaks and it only cost you $15, you'll bin it or pull it apart and try to fix it yourself. Losing $15 isn't the end of the world is it and they (generally) wont come crying to CPF about it.


----------



## T0RN4D0 (Feb 3, 2010)

Hehehe true that, nothing pisses me more then buying something "premium" that fails just as bad as the cheap junk, and then dealing with customer service that is about as bad as the DX one.  At least on DX you know you can expect the worst. :sigh: 


There is one thing tho, all appliances and tehnical goods must have 2 year warranty here, so the shops tend to not sell complete junk when it comes to serious stuff, and the warranty is actually useful, while the overseas warranty is usually useless. So if you buy something you suspect its gonna die on you in a year or so, you haven't really lost anything because you get your money back or replacement.


----------



## old4570 (Feb 3, 2010)

Oh Lord ! Why does it feel like Im talking to dry wall sometimes ? 

1/ I blame the education system , people no longer are able to read or comprehend
2/ Was I talking about premium lights ? I dont think so .. Heck I could be wrong .

3/ What is so hard to understand about = The cheaper you go , the greater the possibility you are going to buy something problematic ? Geez , seemed easy enough to understand to me . 

4/ Did I ever say premium lights , or even middle of the road lights did not have problems ? 

5/ Could have sworn I said , they would probably have better components .

6/ I grow weary of ? replies , this was simply a post to encourage people to buy wisely , and for me , the % is 10% for lights and close to 20% for drivers , when it comes to faulty buys from China ... 

Drivers that died in lights purchased = 5% 
So 5% needed new drivers and 5% needed some sort of trouble shooting ..
Thats from some 40+ Flashlights purchased in the last year , all of them cheap buys . 

Now , I will try and make this as simplistic as possible ...
If you go cheap , please be aware of the risk involved , you may need to fix your purchase . It is important that when buying , you research the light your interested in , so you make a informed purchase , rather than relying on blind faith or impulse buying . 

Anything electronic is capable of being faulty , thats just life , but its simply a fact of life that the cheaper you go , the greater the risk .

This is my point = Be aware of the increased risk , and do your homework . 
If you are unable to comprehend this simple fact , please feel free to reply . 

And for the last time = I love my cheap lights ... I made some informed choices and 90% of the time I got trouble free lights ...


----------



## bogeymachine (Feb 3, 2010)

I'm here for intelligent discourse, not a pissing contest.

The subject line says "beware" not "cheap lights suck" ('cause they don't). Even within "$15 models" some are better than others and some models are more consistent, batch to batch.

The less expensive the light, the more likely you'll get ripped off if you don't do your homework. Ask me how I know!

Please stay on point so we all can benefit from this new sub-forum

bogey out


----------



## mcnair55 (Feb 4, 2010)

A good read this thread and many will not know but the majority of automotive bulbs are made in China even though it says XYZ on the box thinking you are buying a quality German product for example.

But there is China and there is China one country but 2 real quality control methods.


----------



## astro4554 (Feb 4, 2010)

mcnair55 said:


> A good read this thread and many will not know but the majority of automotive bulbs are made in China even though it says XYZ on the box thinking you are buying a quality German product for example.
> 
> But there is China and there is China one country but 2 real quality control methods.


 
Indeed, and the now popular Narva brand of automotive lamps was once made by a company based in the DDR.oo: My MZ 150 Adler motorcycle came fitted with Narva branded bulbs back in the mid- 1970s.

In fact, I have a Narva 3D cell torch complete with its (rather battered) box.

I had forgotten about that old light.

Enjoy your triumph against the darkness gents.


----------



## putbinoot (Feb 6, 2010)

I am new to this but do you really think that people who are smart enough to work a computer need telling that some cheap lights might be of lower quality. Also price has so little to do with quality, you could have a light made by the same company but branded different and one retailer wanting a 100% mark up and the other wanting 300%. Does the quality of the light change ? . Also a high end maker only turning out 1000units a week does not have the economy of scale as someone tooling for 10000units a week. Nice to see this "Budget Light" section.


----------



## old4570 (Feb 6, 2010)

putbinoot said:


> I am new to this but do you really think that people who are smart enough to work a computer need telling that some cheap lights might be of lower quality.



YES !


----------

