# My new Mill :)



## Mirage_Man

Well after getting frustrated with not being able to do milling ops I ordered my first milling machine. I tried to find a used BP but in my area there aren't any that are worth a darn or if there are they want a mint for them. So I ordered a Rong Fu RF31. With Enco's 10% off sale it was a decent deal I think.

Here's the mill.


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## TranquillityBase

*Re: Just ordered a Mill*

Nice :twothumbs


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## DaFABRICATA

*Re: Just ordered a Mill*

I CANT WAIT to see what you produce when that sucker comes in!!!

I'm excited for you!~


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## Axkiker

*Re: Just ordered a Mill*

You will love it. I have a full size Jet knee mill and its great. you can do all sorts of stuff on it. 

I will say that if you plan on doing alot of machine work go ahead and plan on a dro. they make life so much easier.


later


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## Mirage_Man

*Re: Just ordered a Mill*



Axkiker said:


> You will love it. I have a full size Jet knee mill and its great. you can do all sorts of stuff on it.
> 
> I will say that if you plan on doing alot of machine work go ahead and plan on a dro. they make life so much easier.
> 
> 
> later



Yeah, I have a DRO on my lathe. One for the mill is certainly in the plans. I just can't afford one yet.


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## gadget_lover

*Re: Just ordered a Mill*

Congrats. I hope you will find it as rewarding (but not as costly) as your lathe.

DId you get the free shipping with that? The clamping kit and shell mill are an extra hundred or two all by themselves. 

There's quite a difference between a full sized bridgport and a mill/drill. What changed your mind?


Daniel


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## precisionworks

*Re: Just ordered a Mill*

That's the model I use, but it's the Enco brand. Power table, 2 axis DRO. As nice a machine as you'll find for the money


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## Mirage_Man

*Re: Just ordered a Mill*



gadget_lover said:


> Congrats. I hope you will find it as rewarding (but not as costly) as your lathe.
> 
> DId you get the free shipping with that? The clamping kit and shell mill are an extra hundred or two all by themselves.
> 
> There's quite a difference between a full sized bridgport and a mill/drill. What changed your mind?
> 
> 
> Daniel



Nope, I tried to finagle free shipping but they wouldn't go for it. 

The main reason I decided on this one was in all honesty price. I just don't have $4000 for a full size machine. Nor do I want to spend $2000 on a worn out pile of steaming dog doo used machine. And since this should handle what I ask of it I saw no reason to wait any longer to get one. There's been way too many times I needed a mill and didn't have one. Now I do .


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## gadget_lover

*Re: Just ordered a Mill*

Once you get used to one it's frustrating when it's not available.

I'm looking forward to seeing what you do with it.

Daniel


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## wquiles

*Re: Just ordered a Mill*

Congrats Brian !!!

  

Will


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## precisionworks

*Re: Just ordered a Mill*



> quite a difference between a full sized bridgeport and a mill/drill


Yes, and no.

I've made piles of chips with both machines, and they are similar in many ways:

Both use the "universal" R-8 shank, so there's an unlimited supply of both new & used tooling.

Both have about the same motor hp & motor torque, so either machine will remove material at the same rate.

The Bpt head will nod & tilt, which comes in handy a few times each year. The knee will lower almost to the floor, so more daylight is available under the tool. There's more mass, which means less vibration in the cut. With that in mind, why do so many people have a large M/D in their shop?

They don't cost a fortune. Mine was near new, 2 axis Acu-Rite, power table, cabinet stand, $1600 delivered to my shop. Yes, you can find any number of worn out Bpts for the same price, but they are rarely decent until the price goes north of $4k.

They do 95% of the work that can be done on a Bpt. I recently hogged out the intake & exhaust ports of a big block racing motor:


















The head was raised almost to max height, and the job was done with a 1" solid carbide end mill, held in a Bison ER-40 collet. About an hour to do both heads, including the time it took to figure out how to set it up. That job wouldn't have run any faster or any better on a Bpt.

The M/D gives up very little to a knee mill, and keeps a bunch of money in the bank. Which is good -- you'll need it all for tooling


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## DaFABRICATA

*Re: Just ordered a Mill*



gadget_lover said:


> Once you get used to one it's frustrating when it's not available.
> 
> I'm looking forward to seeing what you do with it.
> 
> Daniel


 


You couldn't be more right!

The transformer on my mill blew up last year.
I really need to stop buying lights and get a new one.

Mine is nothing special, but I got a good deal on it and it does (did):mecry:what I need it to.



precisionworks.....those pics remind me of the good 'ol days when my
dad still had his race shop.....I was too young to use all the cool 
machines but I used to love to watch the chips fly!

I hand ported the heads for my old car by hand:green:...To hog out the
majority of the material on a mill would have saved me DAYS!!
Good Times!:wave:


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## SafetyBob

*Re: Just ordered a Mill*

Precision, you hit the nail on the head. I have a wonderful 1200 pounds of worn out metal in my garage (BP series 1). You are so right on the pricing too. 4 years ago when I was looking I found a tool makers personal mill that only he used (and it looked like it too) but they wanted 5400 bucks. A new Birmingham was 3600 with a dro. So my hunk of junk for 1000 didn't look to bad, I knew what I had. 

I imagine Brian had to cough up another couple of hundred for shipping which fortunately was traded off for the 10% off....so I guess around 1600 to 1700 to his door to. That's not bad for something that works correctly. 

I am sure you spent a few hours ensuring everything was setup correctly, but new is new and nobody gives away slightly new machines.....at least they don't to me!!

And another reason you don't need a Bridgeport.....if you head doesn't tilt, I believe they make really nice vices and tables that do. We won't talk about how long it takes to tram the head after you do tilt the head either...especially if you don't do it every day.

Bob E.


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## precisionworks

*Re: Just ordered a Mill*



> We won't talk about how long it takes to tram the head after you do tilt the head either


Or after crashing a face mill ... I crashed the company's face mill quite a bit at first, and every crash knocked the head way out of true. Got pretty fast at tramming the head

One thing that Brian will want to check is the squareness of the spindle to the table. Some M/D spindles are in perfect tram from the factory, but mine was out a few thousandths in X & Y. By loosening the large bolts that hold the base of the column to the base of the mill, shims can be inserted to correct an out of square condition. If the spindle is not square to the table, end mills & face mills will always have a leading edge or a trailing edge, which isn't how they're designed to cut.


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## Mirage_Man

*Re: Just ordered a Mill*

Just got off the phone with the trucking company. The mill is being delivered this afternoon to my work.  As with my lathe I'm having it delivered there due to the availability of a fork lift. I will figure out some way to get it home this weekend.


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## wquiles

*Re: Just ordered a Mill*

Cool. Please post TONS of pictures 

Will


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## precisionworks

*Re: Just ordered a Mill*

My mill was delivered already assembled on the cabinet stand ... which presented a problem. The cabinet is none too sturdy, and positions the mill too low for me, so a forklift was used to lift the mill off the stand. A 2x2 angle frame was cut & welded on both the top of the stand and the bottom, then a 2x2 square tube riser was welded on top of the frame ... will try to post photos later if you're interested. Lifted the mill back onto the stand and bolted it in place, then moved it into position in the shop.

Still too low

Framed out a base, fabbed four huge feet out of 6" diameter pipe resting on mine belting, and convinced two of my best (as in strongest) friends to help lift everything up onto the feet. The point being, try to determine the height you want the mill table to be - don't forget to add for the vise, and for a swivel base if you plan to use one. Do all the add ons before setting the machine in place, as it is one heavy piece.

A crane of some type is helpful.


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## cmacclel

*Re: Just ordered a Mill*



precisionworks said:


> My mill was delivered already assembled on the cabinet stand ... which presented a problem. The cabinet is none too sturdy, and positions the mill too low for me, so a forklift was used to lift the mill off the stand. A 2x2 angle frame was cut & welded on both the top of the stand and the bottom, then a 2x2 square tube riser was welded on top of the frame ... will try to post photos later if you're interested. Lifted the mill back onto the stand and bolted it in place, then moved it into position in the shop.
> 
> Still too low
> 
> Framed out a base, fabbed four huge feet out of 6" diameter pipe resting on mine belting, and convinced two of my best (as in strongest) friends to help lift everything up onto the feet. The point being, try to determine the height you want the mill table to be - don't forget to add for the vise, and for a swivel base if you plan to use one. Do all the add ons before setting the machine in place, as it is one heavy piece.
> 
> A crane of some type is helpful.


 

I moved mine around with an Engine hoist. It's not as problem to lift the mill an base as one unit.

Mac


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## wquiles

*Re: Just ordered a Mill*



precisionworks said:


> ... will try to post photos later if you're interested.



Well, you know me, a thread is not worth reading if there are no photos in it :devil:

Will


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## StrikerDown

*Re: Just ordered a Mill*



wquiles said:


> Well, you know me, a thread is not worth reading if there are no photos in it :devil:
> 
> Will



But Will, I thought you only read machine porn for the articles! :naughty:


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## cmacclel

*Re: Just ordered a Mill*



wquiles said:


> Well, you know me, a thread is not worth reading if there are no photos in it :devil:
> 
> Will


 

Here's a picture of mine to tide you over with a home made super spacer mounted


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## SafetyBob

*Re: Just ordered a Mill*

So basically, I (since I have a nice mig welder here) would be better off to just order the Mill/drill and build my own stand which I could incorporate storage and/or drawers into besides making it be able to withstand a small nuclear explosion.....or something like it? 

Bob E.


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## Mirage_Man

*Re: Just ordered a Mill*



cmacclel said:


> Here's a picture of mine to tide you over with a home made super spacer mounted



Dude! Your shop looks like a friggin' clean room .


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## cmacclel

*Re: Just ordered a Mill*



Mirage_Man said:


> Dude! Your shop looks like a friggin' clean room .


 
And I owe it all to that black and red thing mounted to the wall  Best thing I have purchased  Probably the cheapest as well.

Mac


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## Mirage_Man

*Re: Just ordered a Mill*

OK Guys, I know there's at least one of you that wants to see pictures.  So here's a few. 

The truck showed up around 3PM.






The driver used a pallet jack to move the crate to the back of the truck. As you can see by the label it was indeed made in Taiwan not China. I have to admit it was much smaller than I expected.






Then one of the guys in the warehouse I trust lifted it off with the forklift.











The crate, if you want to call it a crate, was free of any obvious damage. I took the top off to inspect the mill. However cheesy the crate appeared, it seemed to have done it's job of protecting the mill. I will know for sure when I open it up the rest of the way tomorrow. 






More pictures to follow after I open it up the rest of the way.


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## precisionworks

*Re: Just ordered a Mill*



> build my own stand which I could incorporate storage and/or drawers


That's not a bad idea. By any definition, the cabinet stand is lightweight. It does provide a nice, chip free storage space. Sometimes it's "free" as part of a package.

Building a cabinet stand with drawers takes more time & effort than you might imagine. But it would provide better use of space, be the right height for you, and be very strong. If an old military desk could be found (remember those, olive drab green, weighed about a thousand pounds, had a bunch of drawers that would hold the contents of a semi-trailer), that could function as a decent base. The height would still be too low for me, but building a riser would be a cinch.



> Your shop looks like a friggin' clean room


Probably why his lights are so awesome



> I owe it all to that black and red thing mounted to the wall


If only my wife could be trained to run THAT machine


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## cmacclel

Cool......Let me give you some advice. Be SURE to adjust the "Y" Axis backlash before mounting it to the stand as the adjustment set screw is underneath the machine. My machine was used when I purchased it from my work but was barely used and still had the cosmolene all over it when I got it. It has like 0.030 backlash on both "X" and "Y" axis's. After a quick adjustment until I just couldn't feel any drag I'm now down to 0.010.

Mac


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## SafetyBob

Glad one of you guys mentioned how clean Mac's shop looks. 

I have one of those things that picks things up to, but somehow it doesn't get used as much as it should. I am just glad to keep ahead of rust and whatever else finds it's way into the garage!!

Nice thing about those old style military grey desks....I think I know where one is. This may give me a quest to go on tomorrow. The nice thing is that I think the folks that have it in a storage building would love to see it go. 

I think if I could win the lottery, or I promise if I win the lottery, I will have a shop as clean and nice looking as Mac's.....how's that? 

Bob E.


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## wquiles

*Re: Just ordered a Mill*



Mirage_Man said:


> Dude! Your shop looks like a friggin' clean room .



+1


Nice pics Brian - glad it arrived safely. I am particularly more than just interested since this is also my next purchase - my mini-mill is just not cutting it (pun intended!) :devil:

Will


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## Mirage_Man

cmacclel said:


> Cool......Let me give you some advice. Be SURE to adjust the "Y" Axis backlash before mounting it to the stand as the adjustment set screw is underneath the machine. My machine was used when I purchased it from my work but was barely used and still had the cosmolene all over it when I got it. It has like 0.030 backlash on both "X" and "Y" axis's. After a quick adjustment until I just couldn't feel any drag I'm now down to 0.010.
> 
> Mac



Thanks Mac. I did read something about that the other night. I already had plans to make a small riser between the chip pan and the bottom of the mill that will allow access to that very part.

I assembled most of the stand tonight. I can definitely tell I'm going to have to raise it up. Maybe as much as a foot, we'll see.


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## cmacclel

Maybe you should build a wood platform to sit the machine on top off because as you may have found out the stand is pretty weak! I have 4 leveling feet that I was going to use but the base was to cheasy so thats why it's on the floor shimmed 

If it helps the middle of the "Y" handle is 32" from the floor to center of the wheel. Perfect for a 5'7" dude like me 

Mac


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## precisionworks

> the stand is pretty weak! I have 4 leveling feet that I was going to use but the base was to cheasy so thats why it's on the floor shimmed


Like so many things, the cabinet stand needs a little work to make it useful.

WARNING - The following photos show chips, rust, and general machining debris ... not suitable for all viewers:nana:

*Overall view of mill





Riser & cabinet top reinforcement





Closer view





Lower cabinet view





Adjustable foot detail






*I started with the bare stand sitting on a level floor. The top was framed in 2x2 angle. Then a pair of 2" square tubes was welded across that, and another pair of 2" square tubes were welded across that. Before the last pair was welded, they were drilled for the mill base mounting bolts.

The bottom of the stand received similar 2x2 angle reinforcement. A 2" square tube was welded under both the front and the back of the stand. 1" square tube runs along each side, and connects everything.

The shop built levelers are easy to build. Drill a hole 1/16" larger than the largest diameter of the bolt. Weld a nut to the bottom of the tube. Add a jam nut below that. The plates are 6x6x 1/4" mild steel, with a "divot" in the middle, made with a ball nose end mill:






The plate rests on a short section of 6" OD schedule 80 pipe, and that sits on a piece of coal mine belting.


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## Mirage_Man

Thanks for the pictures Barry. I am trying to decide if I should get the 6" Kurt or the 4". Would you mind posting a couple pics of your mill from the side showing the table/vise?


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## cmacclel

Mirage_Man said:


> Thanks for the pictures Barry. I am trying to decide if I should get the 6" Kurt or the 4". Would you mind posting a couple pics of your mill from the side showing the table/vise?


 

Here's a good site for you. I have the same vise though it gets used more as a press  and a cheap Enco 6" gets mounted up to the mill 

http://www.finelinehair.com/home/RF_mill_accessories.htm


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## Mirage_Man

Spent Sunday beefing up the stand for the mill. I also got the machine home from my work. The garage is real mess right now re-arranging everything for the mill. 











Here's the stand. We used all 3/16" walled material. The base has 2"x4" square frame that goes around the perimeter. Then 2"x2" pieces across the front and back with approx. 2.5" "outriggers" that the leveling feet will be bolted to. The 2"x2" is welded to the 2"x4" material and then that is welded to the bottom of the stock base. The chip pan is welded to the stand up top. The two pieces on top are 4"x4" and are bolted to the stand through the chip pan with 1/2" bolts. We decided to not weld the 4"x4" pieces to the top just yet in case it ended up being too tall. I still have to drill the holes for the leveling feet and do a quick paint job on it.


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## gadget_lover

That's Purty. 

Nice work on the stand. Good design and nice looking welds too.

Daniel


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## Mirage_Man

gadget_lover said:


> That's Purty.
> 
> Nice work on the stand. Good design and nice looking welds too.
> 
> Daniel



Most of the welds were quite nice. There was quite a gap between the stand and base. So he had to build up the welds there to fill it in. 

Let me say this, that stand is one heavy Mofo now! I had to use the engine hoist to get it into the back of my truck.


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## precisionworks

When the stand weighs as much as the mill, your on the right track


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## wquiles

gadget_lover said:


> That's Purty.
> 
> Nice work on the stand. Good design and nice looking welds too.
> 
> Daniel



+1 - awesome job 

Will


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## PEU

Mirage_Man said:


>



Im not sure if this is the best way for lifting the mill, I suggest lifting it from its base:







Pablo


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## Mirage_Man

Thanks for your concern Pablo. I was only following the manual's directions on how to lift it (see picture below). I think what I'm going to do when I lift it up on to the stand next is run the strap through the inside of column and wrap it around a steel 2x4 then back up through. That way it's being lifted from the bottom and should be more stable.









PEU said:


> Im not sure if this is the best way for lifting the mill, I suggest lifting it from its base:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pablo


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## wquiles

Brian, 

Enough with the tool porn - go ahead and cut some chips so that we know if the mill was worth the purchase price :devil:

Will


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## Mirage_Man

wquiles said:


> Brian,
> 
> Enough with the tool porn - go ahead and cut some chips so that we know if the mill was worth the purchase price :devil:
> 
> Will



I want to but it won't be ready to cut chips for several days yet. :mecry:


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## precisionworks

I probably shouldn't mention that my next machine for VFD conversion is either the mill or the lathe ...


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## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> I probably shouldn't mention that my next machine for VFD conversion is either the mill or the lathe ...



I think that you should, but perhaps not on Brian's thread. We had some of good feedback from you and others on another thread regarding VFD's, but what I would propose is to combine that information in a single thread, so that it would be easier to use and keep updated.

Maybe we can call the new thread: "Considerations for a VFD Upgrade ...", or something like that 

Will


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## Mirage_Man

Here's some more progress on the stand for the mill. I got everything sanded and primed except for the top. I will do that after the bottom is done and I can flip it over.

I also ordered and received some leveling feet. The feet raise the machine another couple inches when installed. Because of this extra height I'm contemplating removing the 4"X4" tubing on top. It just might be too high even for me @ 6'5" tall?

Here's a pic of it primed. Yes, it's upside down in the next picture. More to follow...


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## StrikerDown

Hehehe, When I looked at the last pic my first thought was: why is there a cookie sheet on the bottom But, I am ok now and realize it is the chip pan and the whole thing is upside down It must have been a mirage... man!

Looking good, bet you can't wait to get chippin some metal!


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## Mirage_Man

StrikerDown said:


> Hehehe, When I looked at the last pic my first thought was: why is there a cookie sheet on the bottom But, I am ok now and realize it is the chip pan and the whole thing is upside down It must have been a mirage... man!
> 
> Looking good, bet you can't wait to get chippin some metal!



Yup, she was upside down so I could paint the underside first. I put one top coat on the base while it was upside down. Now I have it righted with the feet on and the top has been primed. I decided to take the 4"X4" tubing off for now at least until I get the chip pan painted. I may go ahead and set the mill on top without the 4"X4" pieces to see how it feels.


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## precisionworks

> It just might be too high even for me @ 6'5" tall?


A good way to estimate a comfortable height for the mill table is to stand straight up & extend your arm at a right angle to your body. The distance from your elbow to the floor is about where you want the table height to be. At least it's easy to add or subtract height using the square tubing.


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## Mirage_Man

Yaaaaay! Got the stand finished and the mill up on it.  It took me all day, but it's done. I'm exhausted. 

The 5" Enco vise I ordered showed up today unexpectedly too. I need to get some bolts to be able to mount it to the table however. 

Ok a few more pics. First the stand...











Here's a couple with the mill mounted on the stand. As you can see I left the 4"X4" square tubing off. It would have been nearly impossible to get the mill up on it while in my garage due to the garage door track being right above the mill. As it was I _just_ cleared it with the engine hoist. I'm sorry I don't have more pictures for you Will, but I was working alone .






Here's a shot showing the lathe too.


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## Anglepoise

Very professional looking setup.


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## SafetyBob

Brian, that would look really nice in MY garage. 

Thanks for the example though......waitin' for the sales. Got the wiped out Bridgeport sold to brother-in-law who has neighbor that just rebuild an old Bridgeport already and he needs something to do, so win-win for everyone. 

I would appreciate commentary as you start using it. Mainly as in...oh, it is big enough, or no maybe a little bigger would have been better, but I can work with this. I think if Barry has one of these at home, that right there is a perfect indication that this rig may be all I really need. 

Bob E.


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## precisionworks

> if Barry has one of these at home, that right there is a perfect indication that this rig may be all I really need.


It's interesting, Bob, because a large mill drill wasn't on the radar when the search began. After attending more auctions than you can imagine (which isn't cheap if you figure the value of shop time plus travel costs), I knew a decent Bridgeport was outside the budget. The cheap ones, around $1000 - $1500, were round rams from the 1940's, and needed too much time & money to bring them back to life. At the other end were nice 2J machines that hadn't been beaten to death, ready to plug-n-play, but had a $5000 price tag.

I was referred to a machinery salesman, a good guy who continues today to take my money ... as in mill drill, surface grinder, horizontal band saw, Euro cold saw, etc. Anyway, Ted knew I wanted a nice mill & had one spotted in southern Missouri. He brought it back for my inspection, which showed a near new table, so flat that a .001 feeler wouldn't go under the 4' Starrett straight edge in any position. A 3/4" end mill was mounted, and the mill hogged through a chunk of mild steel like it was butter. It was $1500 or $1600, including stand, power feed, Acu-Rite DRO, and a 4" mill vise, with free delivery to my shop.

I'd already run a number of full size knee mills, including Bridgeport, Wells-Index, Beaver, Lagun, and had a good idea what they would & wouldn't do. The big mill drill, surprisingly, kept up with the larger knee mills on a metal removal per minute basis. The work envelope is certainly smaller, the table isn't quite as large, and raising & lowering the head is more work than cranking a knee up & down. But, with good set up, a decent vise, sharp tooling, and a careful selection of feed/speed/depth of cut, it will run head to head with any Bridgeport. In the near future, the motor will be upgraded to 3 hp and a VFD will control the speed ... that will give it 50% more power than a Series 1 Bridgeport. 

Buy the big mill drill, Bob, and you'll still have $3000 left in your bank account ... which you'll need for tooling:nana:


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## cmacclel

Brain Excellent JOB!

Mac


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## wquiles

Mirage_Man said:


> I'm sorry I don't have more pictures for you Will, but I was working alone .



Well, I am deeply hurt, but I will eventually get over it ... 

Congrats on the GREAT job with the base - it looks totally professional :twothumbs:

I should had ask you to make TWO of them bases, of course the second one for me :devil:

Will


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## SafetyBob

Yes, Brian, please make two more and I will pick mine up at Will's house. I think it's like a 3 or 4 hour drive from mine.....I would still be hours ahead this way. 

And think of the discount on shipping we would get!!!

Bob E.


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## precisionworks

Beefing up the stand isn't hard. Even if you don't weld, any local welding or fab shop can add the tubes to end up just the way Brian's did. The advantage to making this in your own shop is that it justifies the purchase of a nice MIG welder


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## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> Beefing up the stand isn't hard. Even if you don't weld, any local welding or fab shop can add the tubes to end up just the way Brian's did. The advantage to making this in your own shop is that it justifies the purchase of a nice MIG welder



Don't go there - I want to also learn how to weld with a MIG welder as well 

Will


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## KC2IXE

The 1-2 times I've tried using a MIG welder, I had NO luck, but I can use a stick welder no problems, go figure. I can also gas weld, braze, and silver solder with my torches. What I really want (but don't really have the electric for is) a nice TIG set. The electric problem is also why I only have one of the little breadbox sized "buzzbox" welders - I only have 220v 30amp


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## gadget_lover

KC2IXE said:


> The 1-2 times I've tried using a MIG welder, I had NO luck, but I can use a stick welder no problems, go figure. I can also gas weld, braze, and silver solder with my torches. What I really want (but don't really have the electric for is) a nice TIG set. The electric problem is also why I only have one of the little breadbox sized "buzzbox" welders - I only have 220v 30amp



I took a quick 2 hour class in MIG welding at the TechShop last month. It really is fairly simple once you get the 4 or 5 variables taken care of. I was able to do a decent bead on my second try.

I bought a flux core wire feed unit for at home, but have not used it yet. I'll get a good MIG unit some day, when I find one on craigslist.

Dan


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## precisionworks

My shop offers stick, MIG, TIG, brazing, etc. Easier to justify the expense if you make a profit (or try to:thinking

A community college course is the best way to learn MIG, which is properly called GMAW (Gas Metal Arc Welding). Or find a friend who is drop dead excellent. Unless someone is a full time welder, they are rarely a good teacher.

TIG (actually GTAW, or Gas Tungsten Arc Welding) builds on the basic hand motions of gas welding (or gas brazing) and stick welding. Again, a community college course that teaches gas welding is a wonderful place to start. Once you can gas weld (all positions) & stick weld (all positions), TIG isn't hard.

I can't imagine having a shop & not being able to fab up a stand when one is needed.


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## BVH

All these threads on mills is killing me! I really want one but have absolutely no idea what I'd use it for other than making chips and wasting material just playing around.


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## PEU

BVH said:


> All these threads on mills is killing me! I really want one but have absolutely no idea what I'd use it for other than making chips and wasting material just playing around.



You need more excuses than that? I purchased a small cnc mill and cnc lathe with no more than the same excuse 


Pablo


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## BVH

When I look at the model 240-7155 machine linked below, I understand that it has power feed for all 3 axis but that doesn't make it a CNC machine, does it?

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=557&PMCTLG=00


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## StrikerDown

CNC stands for Computer Numerical Control. The computer controls movement of the milling process based on the program it is running. 

Power feed is the movement of the various axis controlled by a switch only.


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## precisionworks

> but have absolutely no idea what I'd use it for


Round work is best done on the lathe ... some non-round work can be adapted to the lathe, also. Everything else goes on the mill, including parts too large to swing on the lathe.

Slotting can be done on the lathe with a cross slide fixture, but slot length & diameter are limited. Bolt hole patterns are easy on the mill, impossible on the lathe. 

The "machine tool trilogy" includes lathe, mill, surface grinder. You'll miss any of the three that you don't have:mecry:


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## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> Round work is best done on the lathe ... some non-round work can be adapted to the lathe, also. Everything else goes on the mill, including parts too large to swing on the lathe.
> 
> Slotting can be done on the lathe with a cross slide fixture, but slot length & diameter are limited. Bolt hole patterns are easy on the mill, impossible on the lathe.
> 
> The "machine tool trilogy" includes lathe, mill, surface grinder. You'll miss any of the three that you don't have:mecry:



Barry, wouldn't the mill with the "right" milling head be enough of a surface grinder for most of the hobby stuff we do? When do you need a surface grinder?

Will
(still in learning mode and only semi-afraid of asking stupid questions)


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## precisionworks

> When do you need a surface grinder?


The short answer ... if you buy used tools & tooling, the SG will see lots of use. All my fixed parallel sets have seen a trip through the machine, as well as both adjustable parallel sets. Whenever the bottom of a mag base gets beaten up, the SG will make it new again. Worn 1-2-3 blocks are easily ground true, and all blocks can then be height matched to within .0001". 

Since everything in my shop is eBay'd, most need some attention. Some "best buys" are a Brown & Sharpe mag V-block, and a Brown & Sharpe mag square block -- almost identical to the photo below:







These are around $400 each, but the eBay price was closer to $40, in beat up ugly condition. Grinding all four sides restored them to like new condtion.

In addition to tool reconditioning, the main purpose of the SG is to make parts precisely fit each other. Even a small toolroom grinder will easily grind parts to +/- .0001". That may sound like overkill, but some jobs require it. 

Milling is a fast way to remove metal, and will take a part to within one or two thousandths. Grinding is a slow way to finish that part, and take it to within one or two tenths.


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## StrikerDown

wquiles said:


> Barry, wouldn't the mill with the "right" milling head be enough of a surface grinder for most of the hobby stuff we do? When do you need a surface grinder?
> 
> Will
> (still in learning mode and only semi-afraid of asking stupid questions)


 
Ditto on your last sentence!

It sounds like Barry is saying yes, unless you need greater accuracy?

My mill shipped yesterday so My questions are probably stupider that yours!


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## BVH

Striker, what mill did you get?


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## StrikerDown

BVH said:


> Striker, what mill did you get?



Same one as Mirage-Man. It's on sale, $435. off regular price.

Here's the mill.


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## Mirage_Man

StrikerDown said:


> Same one as Mirage-Man. It's on sale, $435. off regular price.
> 
> Here's the mill.



Here's a 10% off code too.


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## StrikerDown

Mirage_Man said:


> Here's a 10% off code too.



Huh? You mean you got another 10% off of the $1,289.95 price?


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## Mirage_Man

StrikerDown said:


> Huh? You mean you got another 10% off of the $1,289.95 price?



Yeah , but the code I used expired the day I ordered mine. In fact that's what pushed me over the edge to go ahead and order it.

A couple days ago I got the new 2009 Enco catalog in the mail and there was an insert with the new 10% off code I just posted.


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## SafetyBob

Brian, what's the code???? Please.......with the code, another 10% off and whatever the shipping is I think I will fire off for one.......

Bob E.


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## Mirage_Man

SafetyBob said:


> Brian, what's the code???? Please.......with the code, another 10% off and whatever the shipping is I think I will fire off for one.......
> 
> Bob E.



Duh! I guess I forgot to post it huh .

Here you go. It doesn't discount shipping though, just the machine and whatever else you order.

MCC2D


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## wquiles

Mirage_Man said:


> Duh! I guess I forgot to post it huh .
> 
> Here you go. It doesn't discount shipping though, just the machine and whatever else you order.
> 
> MCC2D



Still works!

Will
(really tempting - must resist!)


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## StrikerDown

Crap! A day late and $190+ short, oh well more tooling to come.


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## StrikerDown

Come on Will, you know you need to replace the Mini Mill! 
Besides I am looking forward to all the great pics you post of new toys!


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## StrikerDown

Mirage-Man,

I was wondering how the Enco 5" vise is working out for you? 

Quality Ok, Etc.?

I would love a Kurt, but they are 4-5 times the price, I think I can get by with less vice for a while.

Thanks.


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## wquiles

Brian,

With the drill chuck in place, and with the head at its highest point, how much distance you have from the edge of the chuck to the top of the vise?

Will


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## Alan B

wquiles said:


> Brian,
> 
> With the drill chuck in place, and with the head at its highest point, how much distance you have from the edge of the chuck to the top of the vise?
> 
> Will



I installed a longer rack on my mini-mill to increase the height. I think I have 10" from spindle to table on mine. Just barely enough to handle 3" diameter parts in a 5" chuck on a 6" rotary table... Have to use short tooling and holders..


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## Mirage_Man

StrikerDown said:


> Mirage-Man,
> 
> I was wondering how the Enco 5" vise is working out for you?
> 
> Quality Ok, Etc.?
> 
> I would love a Kurt, but they are 4-5 times the price, I think I can get by with less vice for a while.
> 
> Thanks.



I have yet to really use it. Truth is most of what I'll be doing will utilize an indexer of some sort. 

That said the quality is typical far east import. Nowhere near on par with a Kurt but for $92 shipped with a swivel base I wouldn't expect it to be. It will suit my purposes when needed just fine.



wquiles said:


> With the drill chuck in place, and with the head at its highest point, how much distance you have from the edge of the chuck to the top of the vise?
> 
> Will



Don't know. Next time I mount the chuck I'll measure it for you. I'll soon have a nice ER40 collet set so for me the drill chuck won't see much use.


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## precisionworks

> I'll soon have a nice ER40 collet set so for me the drill chuck won't see much use.


If you're doing small hole drill & tap jobs, the drill chuck (especially keyless) is faster for tooling changes than the collet. Any larger twist drills go into the collet, as well as most taps. When I'm tapping a few hundred holes at a time, the parts get drilled first, then the tapping head is mounted and all the parts get tapped.

My machine measures 15.75" from collet nose to table. Subtract 2.875" for the Kurt D675 bed height, and the collet nose to vise bed distance is 12.875".


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## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> If you're doing small hole drill & tap jobs, the drill chuck (especially keyless) is faster for tooling changes than the collet. Any larger twist drills go into the collet, as well as most taps. When I'm tapping a few hundred holes at a time, the parts get drilled first, then the tapping head is mounted and all the parts get tapped.
> 
> My machine measures 15.75" from collet nose to table. Subtract 2.875" for the Kurt D675 bed height, and the collet nose to vise bed distance is 12.875".



Thanks Brian and Barry - the 12" plus inches of travel in the head are enough even to put a good rotary table underneath - that is what I wanted to know since that is not currently possible in my X2 mill :mecry:

Will


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## Alan B

wquiles said:


> Thanks Brian and Barry - the 12" plus inches of travel in the head are enough even to put a good rotary table underneath - that is what I wanted to know since that is not currently possible in my X2 mill :mecry:
> 
> Will



As I mentioned earlier, a longer rack is available for the mini-mill that gives you more vertical. If your mini-mill cannot get to the top of the column this can give you that capability. I have a mini mill working with a 6" rotary table with a 5" three jaw lathe chuck mounted on it. I use collets or a mill holder for the tooling to maximize space (rather than the drill chuck). I think my mill (on the Grizzly G0516) is the same as the X2.

The rack is from littlemachineshop. It is in their air spring conversion kit:

http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2258


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## wquiles

Alan B said:


> As I mentioned earlier, a longer rack is available for the mini-mill that gives you more vertical. If your mini-mill cannot get to the top of the column this can give you that capability. I have a mini mill working with a 6" rotary table with a 5" three jaw lathe chuck mounted on it. I use collets or a mill holder for the tooling to maximize space (rather than the drill chuck). I think my mill (on the Grizzly G0516) is the same as the X2.
> 
> The rack is from littlemachineshop. It is in their air spring conversion kit:
> 
> http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2258



Alan,

Thanks. I already have that kit installed in my mini-mill (very nice kit by the way), but I want more travel and more HP to go with it :devil:

I will keep saving my money for a bigger mill like Brian, or a good used one 

Will


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## Alan B

wquiles said:


> Alan,
> 
> Thanks. I already have that kit installed in my mini-mill (very nice kit by the way), but I want more travel and more HP to go with it :devil:
> 
> I will keep saving my money for a bigger mill like Brian, or a good used one
> 
> Will



Of course! Me too!! But there is room for a rotary table on mine already, I cut 3+" diameter parts in there. Drilling is harder, need to get a set of the shorter screw-machine drill bits to give more room there, and use collets instead of the drill chuck if necessary for more room. I have a mill question but I think I will start a separate thread. Sorry for the sorta OT here.


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## frisco

I've had my mill (10x50 Acer) for many years.... I'm no machinists....But I can get by for Race Cars, Motorcycles and prop building.

I would highly recommend you buy a USA made KURT vise. A friend of mine has a China copy vise and I will not be in the same room when he is using that thing. Think about....... That's what is holding the chunk of metal..... Than the motor and tool are trying to knock that chunk of metal out of the vise.
Save a couple hundred and buy the China vise.....Get hurt pay many hundreds to the hospital/doctor.

On a brighter note I highly recommend a Super Spacer. I just got one a few months ago..... My god is this thing very cool !!!


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## precisionworks

> highly recommend you buy a USA made KURT vise


+1

There's only one other brand in work holding that's dependable, the Eron (made by Nabeya Co. Ltd of Gifu, Japan), which is a dead nuts Kurt copy. A few show up on eBay, but the one currently listed is ready for retirement. FWIW, everything Eron is very nice ... I have a few of their parallels, V-blocks and angle plates, and most times no one else bids as the brand is unfamiliar. They've been casting iron since 1560, so it's no wonder that they've figured out the process

http://www.nabeya.co.jp/search.php?lang=eng&action=List&cat=E&Parm=181


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## Mirage_Man

Hey Guys, it's easy to spend other people's money isn't it? 

Seriously, I went back and forth trying to decide on what vise to get. I really wanted a Kurt but just couldn't justify it for the amount it will be used inmy shop. I work almost exclusively on round stock which is held in a collet indexer or eventually a spacer indexer. I ended up with the Enco because it was 1/4 the price. IOW it was more than $300 cheaper than the Kurt! If ti lights were selling at the pace and prices they were 6 months ago I would have bought a Kurt and been done with it. But right now the Enco will suffice for the limited work I will use it for. Eventually if I start working with stock that requires a vise then I will likely get a Kurt. But to spend $92 on a 5" vise with swivel base to have something for the rare occaision it's needed was better move for me. That freed up funds to purchase other tooling and supplies that I otherwise would not have been able to get. Forget ebay for a Kurt vise. I looked for weeks. They sell for more there than new from Enco! That is unless you want to buy a piece of crap for $50 cheaper than new.


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## precisionworks

> Forget ebay for a Kurt vise.


+1

You don't see many new, or even decent, Kurts on eBay.

Except the one I snagged for $270, delivered:nana:

The key to eBay, IMO, is to check for the item in the early a.m., and again around dinner time. Sometimes you catch a decent buy-it-now price, or the seller may accept a lower offer (always worth a try, even if "best offer" isn't part of the listing).


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## StrikerDown

*Heads?*



precisionworks said:


> They do 95% of the work that can be done on a Bpt. I recently hogged out the intake & exhaust ports of a big block racing motor:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The head was raised almost to max height, and the job was done with a 1" solid carbide end mill, held in a Bison ER-40 collet. About an hour to do both heads, including the time it took to figure out how to set it up. That job wouldn't have run any faster or any better on a Bpt.
> 
> The M/D gives up very little to a knee mill, and keeps a bunch of money in the bank. Which is good -- you'll need it all for tooling


 
Barry,

Is your mill, Mirage Mans and mine soon to be mill large enough to mill those heads?

I know you can do Harley heads, but what about V8's or 6's.

Ray


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## cmacclel

*Re: Heads?*



StrikerDown said:


> Barry,
> 
> Is your mill, Mirage Mans and mine to be large enough to mill those heads?
> 
> I know you can do Harley heads, but what about V8's or 6's.
> 
> Ray


 
The head in his RF-31 is a BIG BLOCK head (400+ CI). Like he said  Which means they don't get bigger unless you go into a straight 6 head or big diesel heads.

Mac


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## StrikerDown

*Re: Heads?*



cmacclel said:


> The head in his RF-31 is a 8 Cylinder BIG BLOCK head. Like he said
> 
> Mac


 
Yup, I see that, but I am curious if it can Mill the gasket surface in full length pass/es. Here he is porting it. Different operation.


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## cmacclel

*Re: Heads?*



StrikerDown said:


> Yup, I see that, but I am curious if it can Mill the gasket surface in full length pass/es.


 


[FONT=arial,helvetica]*Specifications:*[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica]*RF-31*[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica]Table size [/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica]28.7x8.2"[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica]Long.[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica]travel w/o power feed [/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica]16.9"[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica]Cross travel [/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica]7.28"[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica]Spindle taper [/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica]R8[/FONT]
[FONT=arial,helvetica]Spindle speed [/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica]3000 RPM[/FONT]
Quill travel 5.1"
Quill feed rate Opt.
Spindle motor1.5 HP, 1 or 3 ph
Net weight595 lbs w/o stand


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## precisionworks

> I know you can do Harley heads, but what about V8's or 6's.


IIRC, that head fits a 351 ... also worked on a couple of V12 Jag heads. There's quite a bit of daylight to work with, but you'll want a large angle plate - at least 6x6, and 8x8 would be even better. My angle plate is an Enco cheapy, so I had no hesitation drilling a hole through it to bolt up the head. A couple of step clamps were used on the other side to snug the head tight to the table. The end mill in the photo is a 1", solid carbide, with rounded edges.

Like most jobs on the lathe or mill, there was probably 10 minutes of actual machining, after messing with the set up for an hour:sigh:


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## StrikerDown

Ok, the travel is not long enough, I wonder if the head can be re positioned accurately enough for multiple atacks.


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## cmacclel

StrikerDown said:


> Ok, the travel is not long enough, I wonder if the head can be re positioned accurately enough for multiple atacks.


 

That would all depend on how accurate the job at hand would need to be. Unless you could machine the whole surface in one pass you will always get a ridge were the machining overlaps at least thats the case in my experience no matter how perfect the setup is. 


Mac


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## StrikerDown

Sorry for the confusion. I thought the term "milling the head/s" was commonly understood as being the gasket/block interface as opposed to just any kind of milling job on other parts of the assembly.


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## StrikerDown

cmacclel said:


> That would all depend on how accurate the job at hand would need to be. Unless you could machine the whole surface in one pass you will always get a ridge were the machining overlaps at least thats the case in my experience no matter how perfect the setup is.
> Mac


 
I have not opperated a mill yet but the lathe jobs I have worked on where the workpiece hangs out of the head stock and has to be cut in two seperate stages for the full length, have been extremely challenging to impossible to get just right.

I think I will stick to my Harley heads for now!


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## gadget_lover

How do you figure out how thick the tube walls should be? 

I want to make a similar stand, with retractable wheels. The weight will rest on 4 feet similar to your design. I've looked all over, and can't tell if I will be OK with 2x1 (or 2x4) at 16 gage or if it needs to be thicker. I only have a 100 amp mig welder, so I don't think I can do a good weld on metal over 3/16th thick.

I THINK that my mill is around 1,000 pounds, but I've no way to weigh it.

Thanks

Dan





precisionworks said:


> Lower cabinet view
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Adjustable foot detail
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/B]I started with the bare stand sitting on a level floor. The top was framed in 2x2 angle. Then a pair of 2" square tubes was welded across that, and another pair of 2" square tubes were welded across that. Before the last pair was welded, they were drilled for the mill base mounting bolts.
> 
> The bottom of the stand received similar 2x2 angle reinforcement. A 2" square tube was welded under both the front and the back of the stand. 1" square tube runs along each side, and connects everything.


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## wquiles

gadget_lover said:


> I THINK that my mill is around 1,000 pounds, but I've no way to weigh it.


From all of my initial research, yes, our knee-mill is right about 1000 pounds.

Of course, then you add a RT with chuck, etc., so you might soon have another 100-200 pounds on top of the 1000


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## precisionworks

> The weight will rest on 4 feet similar to your design. I've looked all over, and can't tell if I will be OK with 2x1 (or 2x4) at 16 gage or if it needs to be thicker.



The square tube frame I built (in the photo) has .250" thick walls. 16 GA tubing is .065" thick, and will be borderline at best. 11 GA (.120" thick) would be a good compromise.

A 100a MIG should have no problem with 11 GA as long as the edges are bevel prepped. Using flux cored wire (instead of gas shielded) will also give greater penetration.


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## 65535

Psh, welding doesn't start until you hit 250A capable machines. Hehe. All hail the Millermatic 250's


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## gadget_lover

Thanks guys. I'm glad that I did not weld it up this weekend. I'll find another use for that tubing.

As far as I can analyze it, the weight will be dsitributed along the length of the support, so the loading per sq inch is not too high on most of it. The load is greatest at the ends of the legs where the leveling legs are. 

Since the welds in this design are mainly to keep the legs parallel and uprighnt, is deep weld penetration quite as important? 

I think Barry's 11 gage suggestion is right on. The wheels I bought have a stamped steel frame that is .095 thick and are rated at 750 pounds each. 

Any other suggestions or cautions?

Daniel
P.S. Yes, I'm learning to weld, and will do lots of practice first. I'm also following the miller and lincoln welding forums in the hope of avoiding some of the newbie pitfalls.


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## KC2IXE

How about big 3 phase P&H welders - used to love the one in the shop I learded to weld at. Hate to rell you how much 3/16 rod (and larger) we used to go through - then again, when your welding on 18, 20 inch I beams, welds get large


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## gadget_lover

65535 said:


> Psh, welding doesn't start until you hit 250A capable machines. Hehe. All hail the Millermatic 250's



I'm QUITE happy with my little Lincoln SP100, Thankyouverymuch. Sheesh. You guys with 3 phase and dedicated welding circuits are just spoiled. 


Seriously, I figure that until I need to make something massive, the little 100 will give me enough flexibility to create most of what I want to make. I can always (try to ) use the techniques used by the big boys... things like pre-heating, fish plates and lots of gussets and triangulation. 

And there are always (ugh) bolts. 

Daniel


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## 65535

It's been probably a year since I've seen it last, but I'd love to find it or if Barry is savvy to its location. 800-1200A stick welders designed to repair cracks in castings up to a couple million pounds of steel. The scale is just insane. IIRC anyways.

I'll be on the lookout for it. 

Actually if you are careful and use preheat, with some skill you can get some pretty heavy welding done even with a smaller machine.


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## precisionworks

> I can always (try to ) use the techniques used by the big boys.


Those same techniques are used on large weldments. I did a portable job last week on a huge farming disc, where the end of a piece of 5" square tube had separated from the main frame. Ground away all the old weld, bevel prepped the edges, spaced the joint out by the thickness of the wire being run (.068" on that job). Spent about 60 minutes grinding plus another 90 minutes filling the V-grooves with multiple passes.



> you can get some pretty heavy welding done even with a smaller machine.


It's all about joint prep & good technique.


----------

