# H502w cancelled?



## tychoseven (Sep 26, 2012)

Been waiting for the w model H502, but stopped checking regularly and just now noticed it's not on their product sheet! I guess they couldn't find the tint they wanted?


----------



## Bolster (Sep 27, 2012)

tychoseven said:


> Been waiting for the w model H502, but stopped checking regularly and just now noticed it's not on their product sheet! I guess they couldn't find the tint they wanted?



Are you certain? I see H502w as the first line under "future products."


----------



## tychoseven (Sep 27, 2012)

No kidding. I swear it wasn't there last night...I remember checking the "future" and "discontinued" sections to see if it had gone there, but I must have overlooked it. 

Carry on.


----------



## Bolster (Sep 27, 2012)

tychoseven said:


> No kidding. I swear it wasn't there last night...



I believe you...yours is the second report I've heard of it mysteriously dropping off the spreadsheet for a short amount of time. ZL is messing with us.


----------



## B0wz3r (Sep 30, 2012)

They might be having second thoughts about it, because the 502d is more of a true neutral (based on the beam shots I've seen so far), so it might be redundant to produce a separate 'w' model. Just my guess.

I'm still undecided as to whether to get the 'c' or the 'd' model. I like warm tints, but at the same time, I like bright lights too... For my uses for a 502 though, I'm not sure if the extra output of the 'd' would be useful or not.

Now I just have to figure out whether I should get the 502, or an EagleTac D25A2 in neutral first. They're both going to be for camping/emer-prep use, but the 502 would be more useful, I'm sure.


----------



## TweakMDS (Oct 1, 2012)

B0wz3r said:


> They might be having second thoughts about it, because the 502d is more of a true neutral (based on the beam shots I've seen so far), so it might be redundant to produce a separate 'w' model. Just my guess.



I agree that the 502d is the "most neutral" of the 502's, and even of any LED emitter since it seems to be the only light with a daylight balanced emitter around. I come from a photography point of view, so in my eyes 5000-5500K is neutral, anything below it is warm white / amber and above it is cool white / blue.
However, it would seem that with this light they could just pop a warm white tinted XM-L T5 or T6 in without modifying the light in any other way. Seems like it wouldn't cost them all that much to bring it out.


----------



## Esko (Oct 1, 2012)

TweakMDS said:


> I agree that the 502d is the "most neutral" of the 502's, and even of any LED emitter since it seems to be the only light with a daylight balanced emitter around. I come from a photography point of view, so in my eyes 5000-5500K is neutral, anything below it is warm white / amber and above it is cool white / blue.



The white balance of 502d is closest to the traditional neutral white midday sun CCT... and probably the best for photography. However, sunlight is quite intensive, and the less intensive the light gets, the more pleasant (and more neutral looking) the warmer tones will be.

The light intensity of 502 is rather small, especially at the lower end. I have H502d (without reflector) and H51Fc (with reflector) and while I am happy with them, I believe I would be even more happy with H502c and H51Fd (the latter one doesn't exist, of course).

Also, if you check ZL web page, most of the neutral XM-L headlamps are in back order. We don't have H502w because they don't have the emitters.


----------



## AaronG (Oct 1, 2012)

Esko said:


> The white balance of 502d is closest to the traditional neutral white midday sun CCT... and probably the best for photography. However, sunlight is quite intensive, and the less intensive the light gets, the more pleasant (and more neutral looking) the warmer tones will be.
> 
> The light intensity of 502 is rather small, especially at the lower end. I have H502d (without reflector) and H51Fc (with reflector) and while I am happy with them, I believe I would be even more happy with H502c and H51Fd (the latter one doesn't exist, of course).
> 
> Also, if you check ZL web page, most of the neutral XM-L headlamps are in back order. We don't have H502w because they don't have the emitters.



+1 I emailed zebralight to ask. There response was that the warm xml is unavailable and that other lights using the same emitter will be back order


----------



## B0wz3r (Oct 4, 2012)

TweakMDS said:


> I agree that the 502d is the "most neutral" of the 502's, and even of any LED emitter since it seems to be the only light with a daylight balanced emitter around. I come from a photography point of view, so in my eyes 5000-5500K is neutral, anything below it is warm white / amber and above it is cool white / blue.
> However, it would seem that with this light they could just pop a warm white tinted XM-L T5 or T6 in without modifying the light in any other way. Seems like it wouldn't cost them all that much to bring it out.


I totally agree. Personally, I'd prefer a T5 at about 4,500K, as I'm partial to warmer tints. I had a Xeno E03 with a T5 that was in the 4,200 - 4,500 range, and I really liked it. I ended up gifting it to an aunt though, as she didn't have anything decent to carry around in her purse, and I (of course) had plenty of lights, so I wasn't going to miss it really.



AaronG said:


> +1 I emailed zebralight to ask. There response was that the warm xml is unavailable and that other lights using the same emitter will be back order


Well, there we go, and now we know. Zebra is usually a little behind the curve getting their neutral versions out, in my experience. It's probably because they're a smaller company than say, Fenix, and don't produce as many units, so Cree probably pushes them down the delivery list, preferring to fill larger orders first. I also understand that Zebra is very picky about tint, and will wait to make sure they get the tints they want, instead of just playing the tint lottery like many other manufacturers seem to do (*cough*... *four*... *cough*... *sevens*... *cough*... *cough*...).


----------



## raphaello (Oct 5, 2012)

B0wz3r said:


> Well, there we go, and now we know. Zebra is usually a little behind the curve getting their neutral versions out, in my experience. It's probably because they're a smaller company than say, Fenix, and don't produce as many units, so Cree probably pushes them down the delivery list, preferring to fill larger orders first. I also understand that Zebra is very picky about tint, and will wait to make sure they get the tints they want, instead of just playing the tint lottery like many other manufacturers seem to do (*cough*... *four*... *cough*... *sevens*... *cough*... *cough*...).



The *only* reason Zebralight are slow on their neutral tints is because they are *indeed *(as you have mentioned) very picky about the tint itself. They just want to have *absolutely perfect* tint before launching their products, which deserves a :bow:
I have this information from a person who works at Zebralight.


----------



## Bolster (Oct 5, 2012)

B0wz3r said:


> Zebra is usually a little behind the curve getting their neutral versions out, in my experience. It's probably because they're a smaller company than say, Fenix, and don't produce as many units, so Cree probably pushes them down the delivery list, preferring to fill larger orders first.



So...riddle me this...if a company like Fenix gets priority treatment, why the heck don't they take more advantage of it, and offer more neutral, warm, and high-CRI tints? Seems a neutral-tint Fenix is still something of an oddity.


----------



## tickled (Oct 5, 2012)

Bolster said:


> So...riddle me this...if a company like Fenix gets priority treatment, why the heck don't they take more advantage of it, and offer more neutral, warm, and high-CRI tints? Seems a neutral-tint Fenix is still something of an oddity.


 The power flashlight market itself is probably fairly small already. Perhaps the market subset for warm, neutral, and high CRI lights isn't as large as the vocal minority here would have everyone believe.


----------



## ryguy24000 (Oct 6, 2012)

tickled said:


> The power flashlight market itself is probably fairly small already. Perhaps the market subset for warm, neutral, and high CRI lights isn't as large as the vocal minority here would have everyone believe.



Good point. In reality I would think the lighting giants(light bulb companies) would get first pick on new LED/color technologies.


----------



## Gregozedobe (Oct 7, 2012)

tickled said:


> The power flashlight market itself is probably fairly small already. Perhaps the market subset for warm, neutral, and high CRI lights isn't as large as the vocal minority here would have everyone believe.



IIRC a 4sevens representative has stated something similar here on CPF a while back - compared with their cool white sales the neutral and warm versions of lights sell in much smaller numbers and they don't like to get stuck with a big inventory of unsold lights.


----------



## Bolster (Oct 7, 2012)

Gregozedobe said:


> IIRC a 4sevens representative has stated something similar here on CPF a while back - compared with their cool white sales the neutral and warm versions of lights sell in much smaller numbers and they don't like to get stuck with a big inventory of unsold lights.



Which would explain why the neutral/warm/high-CRI versions have limited runs, sell out quickly, and are often unavailable? Why these runs bring on something of a feeding frenzy? 

I have to object to the "vocal minority" analogy above, as if it were some ignorant advocacy or self-interest group. The shift to neutral/high-CRI is a broad movement _among the informed_. Sure, you still have highly informed people who prefer their low-CRI cold blue or sickly green for one reason or another, but that's increasingly the exception.

I understand the simple dynamic, "brighter is always better" for the uninformed public. As for me, I've lost interest in Fenix since neutrals and high-CRIs have been available elsewhere. All my old Fenix with the greenish beams get backup duty these days.


----------



## tickled (Oct 8, 2012)

Bolster said:


> Which would explain why the neutral/warm/high-CRI versions have limited runs, sell out quickly, and are often unavailable? Why these runs bring on something of a feeding frenzy? I have to object to the "vocal minority" analogy above, as if it were some ignorant advocacy or self-interest group. The shift to neutral/high-CRI is a broad movement _among the informed_. Sure, you still have highly informed people who prefer their low-CRI cold blue or sickly green for one reason or another, but that's increasingly the exception. I understand the simple dynamic, "brighter is always better" for the uninformed public. As for me, I've lost interest in Fenix since neutrals and high-CRIs have been available elsewhere. All my old Fenix with the greenish beams get backup duty these days.


 Without knowing how many cool lights they sell, you can't really say. They could be selling 10x as many cool lights. 

You can also turn around and say highly informed people that enjoy sickly dim yellow casts as being the abnormal ones. 

One thing that works against warm lights is that they cost more in addition to having lower ouput. (Torch makers having to compete against bulb makers for low CCT bin parts doesn't help) Honestly in the 99% of situations when I need light, the extra CRI isn't really needed, I just want to see if that wall, step, or table is in front of me and there is no real value in having higher CRI. I'm not usually comparing fabrics or checking proof sheets under torch light.


----------



## klane (Oct 8, 2012)

tickled makes a good point. But while I may not be scrutinizing a PMS spot color match with my headlamp, my POV on high CRI was always increased depth perception and 'fidelity' so to speak, which could be considered a performance enhancement. There's also a certain intangible pleasantness to the warmer tints vs a typical cold LED.

I'm holding out for the specs on the 502w because I'm hoping to get the best of both worlds — High CRI with the power of an XM-L.

*Pro-tip: sign up for their newsletter and avoid having to check the site religiously e'ry day (assuming they send them out in a timely fashion).


----------



## Bolster (Oct 9, 2012)

tickled said:


> You can also turn around and say highly informed people that enjoy sickly dim yellow casts as being the abnormal ones.



Or that people who enjoy steak are deceived, when a turnip will fill them just as full. There's no end in sight when you embrace relativism, and dismiss quality as mere preference. Grape soda is as good as fine wine, who's to say otherwise? 

But, I'm comfortable betting that the average consumer will catch up with CPF enthusiasts in short order. Try selling a sickly green tint in five years, when everybody's gone high-CRI. Try selling one now, for that matter. 



tickled said:


> Honestly in the 99% of situations when I need light, the extra CRI isn't really needed, I just want to see if that wall, step, or table is in front of me and there is no real value in having higher CRI. I'm not usually comparing fabrics or checking proof sheets under torch light.



Just the opposite of me, then. In 99% of situations I don't need additional lumens. I need to be able to distinguish colors accurately. I'm not usually looking at walls or tables. I'm trying to determine the colors of wiring harnesses, or what subtle color trace has been left behind from a leak. I'm eagerly awaiting 95 CRI LEDs. Bring 'em on. 

Everybody's welcome, of course, but why hang out in a thread devoted to the 'w' if not interested in neutrals, warms, or high CRI. Sounds like you don't need or want one. At any rate, glad you're here, let me sell you my green- and purple-tint lights!




klane said:


> tickled makes a good point. But while I may not be scrutinizing a PMS spot color match with my headlamp...



Regards this "High-CRI only good for scrutinizing color swatches" meme, it's a straw man argument.


----------



## tychoseven (Oct 10, 2012)

I started a thread over on the Marketplace (in the 4Sevens forum) where I requested more neutral-white emitters, amongst other things. David stated that when there's a run of high-CRI or neutral lights, there's an feeding frenzy, but sales decline after the initial surge and inventory sits around while the cool white lights continue to move. GoingGear confirmed this trend and the preference of the "mainstream" consumer for cool emitters.

Personally I think it's a matter of informing folks about their options. Some people will always want the angry purple lights; witness the popularity of HID headlights on cars. But whenever I show people my ZL headlamp, they're impressed both by how much brighter it is than their headlamp, but also (this is important, since they bring it up) how much better the ZL renders colors. People do notice the difference, and prefer the neutral emitter, in my experience. But no non-flashaholic I've met had the slightest idea LEDs came in anything but shades of blue! The neutral and HCRI emitters don't have the mainstream exposure they'll need to be demanded by regular folks.

Modern LEDs are "good enough" for most people's flashlight needs, and now we can focus on improving the quality of light they produce. Truly, it's an awesome time to be a flashaholic.


----------



## B0wz3r (Oct 10, 2012)

klane said:


> ...my POV on high CRI was always increased depth perception and 'fidelity' so to speak, which could be considered a performance enhancement. There's also a certain intangible pleasantness to the warmer tints vs a typical cold LED.


This is pretty much what I said in a lot more words above. We see warmer tints better than cool tints because of the proportions of the different cones in the retina. 

It's also why I've posted extensively in the past that while CRI and color temp are not physically related, they are perceptually related because of the functional parameters of the human visual system. 

But in short, we get a better depth of field from warmer tints, and most people find them more aesthetically pleasing, because they are closer to the range of wavelengths that evolution has selected the human visual system to be maximally sensitive to.



klane said:


> I'm holding out for the specs on the 502w because I'm hoping to get the best of both worlds — High CRI with the power of an XM-L.


To be consistent with what I've mentioned above, I'd say that ZL already has it in the 502d.

However, it appears that HCRI XML's are now becoming available; Nailbender's site currently lists a P60 module with an HCRI XML that does 500 lumens OTF from a single cell. 

(Sorry I can't post a link... the mods have already temporarily banned me once before for criticizing the poor tint consistency of the emitters of one of their major advertisers. So, you know the old saying, if you can't say something nice...)


----------



## Bolster (Oct 10, 2012)

tychoseven said:


> ...preference of the "mainstream" consumer for cool emitters.



This is certainly a proxy effect. Cool emitters are the brightest emitters. I think the mainstream consumer wants top lumens, rather than wants cool tint. They just happen to be highly correlated.

In the quoted statement above, just swap the word "cool" for "top lumen," and you'd have captured the psychology behind the preference.



B0wz3r said:


> However, it appears that HCRI XML's are now becoming available; Nailbender's site currently lists a P60 module with an HCRI XML that does 500 lumens OTF from a single cell.



Holy Moly.


----------



## B0wz3r (Oct 10, 2012)

Bolster said:


> Holy Moly.



Just go to customlites dot com and poke around in the drop-in modules section; there's a link to it in the left hand column of the page.

It has a stated driver voltage of 2.8 - 6, so it could run on 1x123, 1x16340, 1x14500, 1x18650, or 2x123.

I've already sent an email inquiring if any other driver ranges are available, so their modules could be run on 2x18650. I also just ordered one of his low voltage HCRI XP-G2 modules that will run on 2xAA for my Solarforce L2r... 350 OTF lumens of warm-HCRI goodliness off of two eneloops or L91's!!!


----------



## tickled (Oct 20, 2012)

Bolster said:


> Everybody's welcome, of course, but why hang out in a thread devoted to the 'w' if not interested in neutrals, warms, or high CRI. Sounds like you don't need or want one. At any rate, glad you're here, let me sell you my green- and purple-tint lights!  Regards this "High-CRI only good for scrutinizing color swatches" meme, it's a straw man argument.


 I'm actually thinking of buying the cool and daylight versions of the H502 FYI. Interesting to note that the 5000K and 6300K versions of this light have been on and off back order for a few weeks now while the 4000K version has been available the whole time.


----------



## south_aussie_hiker (Apr 23, 2013)

It is back on the spreadsheet, with a XML2.

May 2013 release supposedly.


----------



## ShaoloGear (May 6, 2013)

Announcement went over the wire this evening.

Estimated shipping date is now 6/7/2013.


----------



## pobox1475 (May 22, 2013)

Now says "Not For Sale" on their site  .


----------



## wuyeah (Jul 3, 2013)

http://www.zebralight.com/H502w-AA-Flood-Headlamp-Neutral-White_p_108.html

Isn't it available now? Anyone got it? report of the color reviews?


----------



## creyc (Jul 3, 2013)

Finally decided to jump on this light. I made a post with beam shots and my initial impressions in the headlight forum.


----------

