# Anyone had TSA confiscated your LED flashlight?



## brightnorm (Jun 26, 2003)

*Flying with flashlights*

I've found it useful to print out dealer web pages illustrating and naming all my carry on lights. This immediately calms suspicions because Security sees that they are legitimate commercial products. Since mods use commercial bodies as hosts the same principle applies.

I wouldn't carry on lights big enough to be seen as striking weapons. The Tigerlight presents special problems because of its suspicious looking innards.

As a final touch I made up a "CPF ID card" that looks official enough to answer questions like "for what purpose do you carry so many flashlights"? It once elicited interest from a security person who didn't realize that he was a potential Flashaholic.


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## d'mo (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: \"Tricks\" to calm airport security*

Any chance we can see this ID card?


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## Viper (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: \"Tricks\" to calm airport security*

While Airport Security has never given me a problem, I think the manufacturer sheets would be a good idea. I don't know if a CPF card will do anything. 

Only 1 time did airport security really hassle me, it was a young rookie trying to "make a big deal" out of a Voltmeter. It had wires plugged into a box with a needle on it, so he had to call the "supervisor". This was in Denver.

The supervisor was shaking his head like it was never going to get past the checkpoint. After 10 minutes, and older retired guy said "hey, that's a voltmeter" and I was allowed to go through.


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## brightnorm (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: \"Tricks\" to calm airport security*

Unfortunately I don't have a digital camera. I'm open to suggestions.

Brightnorm


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## Screehopper (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: \"Tricks\" to calm airport security*

Not exactly flashlight related, but related to airport security. I went on a business trip recently and for the sake of argument I went to the TSA (Transportation Security Administration) to see the most up-to-datePermitted and Prohibited Items List. 

My question is what is the difference between matches and safety matches? The latter is allowed in carry-ons.

Also, what's the difference between razors and safety razors? The latter is also allowed in carry-ons.

I asked the workers at the security stands and they couldn't answer the questions nor could the manager-type answer them.

Joey


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## trailstoride (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: \"Tricks\" to calm airport security*

I believe "matches" refer to the strike anywhere matches. Safety matches require striking against a friction pad, as in a paper book of matches.

I'm not sure about a safety razor - guessing it would be like a shaving razor refill where just the tips of the blades are exposed for shaving.


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## FlashlightOCD (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re:*

The old barbers razor looks somewhat like a folder pocket knife and could definitely be used to hurt someone.

Older razors came in seperate blade and shaver packs, the raw blade could be dangerous.

Safety razors are the common single-unit items like the "BIC" razors you buy in your grocery store, pretty hard to use it as a weapon.


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## sotto (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re:*

I always thought it was funny you could take a BIC lighter and a can of hairspray on board. Makes one hell of a torch (and I don't mean flashlight). /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif


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## SarcoBlaster (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re:*

I'm going to be flying sometime in August (not an international flight if that matters) and would like to take my SureFire 6P and L4 into the plane with me. Would that pass the checkpoints? Any help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks!


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## IlluminatingBikr (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: \"Tricks\" to calm airport security*

[ QUOTE ]
*brightnorm said:*
Unfortunately I don't have a digital camera. I'm open to suggestions.

Brightnorm 

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you have a scanner?


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## FalconFX (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: \"Tricks\" to calm airport security*

_Do you have a scanner? _

Clean, and effective...
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## brightnorm (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: \"Tricks\" to calm airport security*

[ QUOTE ]
*FalconFX said:*
_Do you have a scanner? _

Clean, and effective...
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif 

[/ QUOTE ]

I do but how would I transfer the images to CPF?

BN


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## brightnorm (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re:*

[ QUOTE ]
*SarcoBlaster said:*
I'm going to be flying sometime in August (not an international flight if that matters) and would like to take my SureFire 6P and L4 into the plane with me. Would that pass the checkpoints? Any help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks! 

[/ QUOTE ]

I've found it useful to print out dealer web pages illustrating and naming all my carry on lights. This immediately calms suspicions because Security sees that they are legitimate commercial products. Since mods use commercial bodies as hosts the same principle applies.

Brightnorm


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## FalconFX (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re:*

Brightnorm, 

www.imagestation.com...
free registration and storage...


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## IlluminatingBikr (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: \"Tricks\" to calm airport security*

I can't wait to see this CPF card! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif Maybe we should make them for all of the CPF members. That would be way cool. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## Tree (Jun 26, 2003)

*Re: \"Tricks\" to calm airport security*

[ QUOTE ]
*Screehopper said:*
Not exactly flashlight related, but related to airport security. I went on a business trip recently and for the sake of argument I went to the TSA (Transportation Security Administration) to see the most up-to-datePermitted and Prohibited Items List. 

My question is what is the difference between matches and safety matches? The latter is allowed in carry-ons.

Also, what's the difference between razors and safety razors? The latter is also allowed in carry-ons.

I asked the workers at the security stands and they couldn't answer the questions nor could the manager-type answer them.

Joey 

[/ QUOTE ]

Just tell them it's a "safty" flashlight. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## Monsters_Inc (Jun 27, 2003)

*Re: \"Tricks\" to calm airport security*

I carried my Scorpion on an international flight recently. At a search, I was told to sit down, take off my shoes/clothes while the customs officer stood between myself and the table on which my carry-on bag was placed to be searched. I couldn't see what he was doing most the time, but I did notice he had unscrewed the head of the Scorp to check its insides, and I saw him proceeding to screw the head back on not making sure the threads align and just generally being careless. Resulting in a now unevenly worn thread on a $40 light.

Bottom line - don't travel if you're not white and middle-class.


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## Graham (Jun 27, 2003)

*Re: \"Tricks\" to calm airport security*

Hmm.

I'm going to play devil's advocate here. Call me paranoid, but isn't there a chance that carrying around a page apparently printed from a flashlight makers website, make you *more* suspicious? I mean, if you're just carrying an innocent little flashlight, why would you go to the trouble of printing out this page and carrying it around with you? Maybe you expect trouble? But then why would you expect trouble if you're not doing anything suspicious?

If I were the security person, I'd be thinking, "Wait a minute, why is this person carrying around this paper, as if he expects to be stopped and questioned? Is there something else suspicious about him? Is he trying to divert our attention? How do I know this printed page is authentic?"

I would think that if the security people are on the ball, such a paper would result in greater scrutiny, not less.

Graham


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## PsycoBob[Q2] (Jun 27, 2003)

*Re: \"Tricks\" to calm airport security*

My cousin (~24, caucasian, female, cute) gets stopped all the time- mostly because of what she carries. She has a recently-developed allergy to several foods, bad enough that she carries a 3-pack of auto-injectors. She also carried enough pills to look like a walking pharmacy. Recently, she decided to start packing a full list of what everything is and why she needs it, all signed by her doctor. 

She says that she can only remember ONCE since she started carrying all that that she didn't get stopped. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/twak.gif But, I guess they're doing their jobs.... After all, how can one tell what's in those auto-injectors? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif


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## brightnorm (Jun 27, 2003)

*Re: \"Tricks\" to calm airport security*

[ QUOTE ]
*Graham said:*
Hmm.

I'm going to play devil's advocate here. Call me paranoid, but isn't there a chance that carrying around a page apparently printed from a flashlight makers website, make you *more* suspicious?...I would think that if the security people are on the ball, such a paper would result in greater scrutiny, not less.

Graham 

[/ QUOTE ]

Graham,

It's an interesting point that I can't answer definitively. I don't automatically whip out the card and display the papers. That might indeed seem a little suspicious. I go by the feel of the situation. It may help that I'm older and probably look reasonably civilized, but who knows? OTOH, perhaps the reaction would have been identical if I didn't have the pages. I really can't say for sure, but I usually travel with MANY lights (but not big ones, as I mentioned in my original post). My only international flights have been between the US and Canada, and security is much tighter returning to the US. 

I'd probably reduce my carry for other foreign flights, especially countries where suspicion runs high and technological sophistication runs low, but I probably wouldn't visit them in the first place.

Brightnorm


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## brightnorm (Jun 27, 2003)

*Re:*

[ QUOTE ]
*FalconFX said:*
Brightnorm, 

www.imagestation.com...
free registration and storage... 

[/ QUOTE ]

Choua,

My first choice would be to email them to others who could post them: an administrator or moderator, or to any modder from whom I've bought lights.

Brightnorm


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## FalconFX (Jun 27, 2003)

*Re:*

Ahh,
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif


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## Slick (Jun 27, 2003)

*Re: \"Tricks\" to calm airport security*

[ QUOTE ]
*Monsters_Inc said:*
I carried my Scorpion on an international flight recently. At a search, I was told to sit down, take off my shoes/clothes while the customs officer stood between myself and the table on which my carry-on bag was placed to be searched. I couldn't see what he was doing most the time, but I did notice he had unscrewed the head of the Scorp to check its insides, and I saw him proceeding to screw the head back on not making sure the threads align and just generally being careless. Resulting in a now unevenly worn thread on a $40 light.

Bottom line - don't travel if you're not white and middle-class. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed, a lot of these new "security types" are dolts who will carelessly ruin your property... I solved the problem by giving up flying! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Since %99 of my job travel is within the same state (California), I can always drive (now days) faster than any airplane can get me there.

If enough people gave up flying, it would put pressure on the airlines to do a better job.. Or else they would have to deal with decreased revenues - that simple /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif


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## BigMac (Jun 27, 2003)

*Re:*

[ QUOTE ]
*brightnorm said:*
[ QUOTE ]
*FalconFX said:*
Brightnorm, 

www.imagestation.com...
free registration and storage... 

[/ QUOTE ]

Choua,

My first choice would be to email them to others who could post them: an administrator or moderator, or to any modder from whom I've bought lights.

Brightnorm 

[/ QUOTE ]

Email me the pic of the card and I wouldn't mind posting it.


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## The_LED_Museum (Jun 27, 2003)

*Re: \"Tricks\" to calm airport security*

When I was 14 or so (early 1980s), I got stopped at the Sacramento CA. airport because I had a busted HeNe laser tube in my carryon bag. The security guy had no idea what it was or what it was for (there was a 1st surface mirror inside that I was going to use), and had to call his boss over to see what that "curious glass thing" was. I tried to tell them it was a busted helium neon laser tube.

And in 1997, I had to turn my cellular telephone on in front of them at the Seattle airport so they could be sure it wasn't a bomb. I don't think I had to do that in Flint or Detroit MI., my destination and a few days later, departure points.


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## Screehopper (Jun 27, 2003)

*Re:*

I was going through the security checkpoint at the airport and one of the security persons asked me to remove my shoes so that they could inspect it [hand inspected]. Then after I put back on my shoes the security guard behind him asked me to remove my shoes so that they could be put through the x-ray. I said, "Again? The other security person just checked it!!!" 

He refused to budge and said that all shoes have to go through the x-ray. Aiy! And I had my shoelaces retied already! Sheeeesh! To save me the trouble the first guy should of just said to send it through the stink'n x-ray.

They need better coordination. Then this week at the airport they said that after I went through the metal detector that my shoes would be inspected. I walked through, picked up my bags, and no one was there for the shoe inspection. Hrmmm. They're not very organized either.


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## Gman (Jun 27, 2003)

*Re: \"Tricks\" to calm airport security*

Don't get me started on these guys, I fly for a living and deal with them all the time. First we were forced to take our shoes and caps off and now we can carry weapons. Does that make sense? Why would you search flight crew in the first place? Did you see where two of these guys were just arrested for rifling baggage? Overnight they went from minimum wage private guards to federal employees. Don't get me started. Our gummint at it's finest....


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## imgadgetman (Jun 27, 2003)

*Re: Re: \"Tricks\" to calm airport security*

I was flying in India a couple years ago and they made me take all of the batteries out of my flashlights to be held by the pilot. They didn't take the 20+ spares that I had in my carry on so I replaced them as soon as I sat down.
Gadgetman


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## georget98 (Jun 27, 2003)

*Re: \"Tricks\" to calm airport security*

It drives me nuts that they follow their rules but haven't the slightest notion why some of them exist. 

I flew to Tokyo last fall and had both my US and my Japanese cell phones with me. They asked why I had 2, then asked it they worked. I said the US one works, but the Japanese one has a dead battery because the charger needs a different voltage (and Minneapolis is a bit out of range). They had me turn on the US one to prove it worked, and just handed the Jphone back to me without any inspection. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif

more off topic: a woman set off the security alarm leaving a local pharmacy. She went back in and the cashiers checked everything she bought and there was nothing that should have caused the alarm. The cashier sent her on her way with the comment that "it must be something in her purse..."


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## AllenInHouston (Jun 27, 2003)

*Re: \"Tricks\" to calm airport security*

Here's something that I noticed that is interesting. You can't take anything sharp on board, but they'll give you a can of soda. Have you ever folded and twisted a can a few times? It makes a pretty sharp weapon that's just a _little_ sharper than a nail file...


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## logicnerd411 (Jun 27, 2003)

*Re: \"Tricks\" to calm airport security*

[ QUOTE ]
*FalconFX said:*
Brightnorm, 

www.imagestation.com...
free registration and storage... 

[/ QUOTE ]

Look here for the new free service I'm providing to the CPF masses: http://www.tjtech.org/~CPF/readme.php

[ QUOTE ]
*Illuminatingbikr said:*
I can't wait to see this CPF card! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif Maybe we should make them for all of the CPF members. That would be way cool. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif 

[/ QUOTE ]

We had this discussion a while ago and made an unofficial design. We were thinking of making it and mailing them out, but it was too much work, and we left it there.

EDIT: Found the old design... 









Note: Permission was given to use the CPF logo for this.

Dan


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## brightnorm (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re:*

[ QUOTE ]
*BigMac said:*
[ QUOTE ]
*brightnorm said:*
[ QUOTE ]
*FalconFX said:*
Brightnorm, 

www.imagestation.com...
free registration and storage... 

[/ QUOTE ]

Choua,

My first choice would be to email them to others who could post them: an administrator or moderator, or to any modder from whom I've bought lights.

Brightnorm 

[/ QUOTE ]

Email me the pic of the card and I wouldn't mind posting it. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks Choua,

I already emailed several images including prototypes to [email protected] who graciously consented to post them. I tried scanning my card but the images weren't great through the laminate and the files were very large.

I expect that many will react negatively to the image I used for the card front. I had a reason for using it, which may be discussed when [email protected] posts the cards. Remember, there are a whole slew of images from which I selected my card. I tried to extract the preferred images and send them but because I'm somewhat cyber-challenged I failed.

Anyway, we'll see. Frankly I'd like to see a great card made up that we all can agree on and that looks "official" and has appropriate "gravitas" to withstand scrutiny from often non-comprehending security.

It would be so much simpler if we could just post images the same way we post text, without third party intervention. Perhaps we will be able to some day.

Thanks again,
Brightnorm


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## brightnorm (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: \"Tricks\" to calm airport security*

[ QUOTE ]
*Gman said:*
Don't get me started on these guys, I fly for a living and deal with them all the time. First we were forced to take our shoes and caps off and now we can carry weapons. Does that make sense? Why would you search flight crew in the first place? Did you see where two of these guys were just arrested for rifling baggage? Overnight they went from minimum wage private guards to federal employees. Don't get me started. Our gummint at it's finest.... 

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't there a fire ax or something similar in the cockpit? A "crazed" pilot could run amuck with that or plunge the plane into the ground. My point is the absurd inconsistancy and self-contradiction of these rules and regulations.

And what about maintenance, catering and other personnel who have free access to vital locations. Are they constantly and thoroughly checked and monitored? I once recounted several periods of flight in three posts I called "Flashlights and airport insecurity". 

Unfortunately I think the title is still apt.

Brightnorm


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## SarcoBlaster (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re:*

Those retards better not cross thread my lights if they take them apart for inspection... is there anything you can do if they ruin any personal belongings?


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## [email protected] (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: \"Tricks\" to calm airport security*

Here are some pics of Brightnorm's ID-card. 






/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif 

Edited to show current card. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif


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## FalconFX (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re:*

Love the middle one...

But wait!

It's missing a Maxabeam's beam blasting to the moon!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## Gman (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: \"Tricks\" to calm airport security*

Yes, there is a crash axe in the cockpit but who needs it? As you said, the crew has the airplane in it's hands and could do as it pleases. Thats the absurdity of the issue. A US Air pilot angrily pointed this out to a screener a year ago and was promtly detained while his flight was delayed and everyone inconvienenced. As I said, almost overnight crew went from having their nail clipppers confiscated to being armed if they chose. Make sense to you?

In the old days all line employees would walk past security but in the 80s a disgruntled PSA employee boarded a flight in Califonia with a hand gun and executed the crew in flight. That changed the rules for everyone. There was also the case a few years back when a FexEx pilot tried to kill his fellow crewmembers and crash his DC10 into FedEx HQ. There is really no 100% protection but the odds of a crew member causing a problem are slim. And now that we have the "door of doom" installed in all airplanes no one can get in and we're not supposed to leave the front office for any reason. This leaves armed crew locked up front but the FAs and Pax helpless. Again, make sense to you?

Times have changed and we must change with them but when it comes to what the TSA does, it's mostly to make the public feel better. In short, I feel the airplane thing has aready "been done" and it'll likely be something different the next time. 

To keep this torch related, dealing with security in some other country's airports is interesting. I recently spend a month in Russia and Ukraine. I had no problems with security but many of those guys were absolutely fascinated by my A2. They would play with it and very reluctantly give it back. I could see they wanted it bad. Course, the cost of an A2 is twice the average monthly salary for cops from these countries. I also had dinner with a retired officer of the Russian Special Forces and he was astounded by the quality of these lights. 

I could also tell you about recently spending a week at Chernobyl and how the Ukrainian cops were so interested in my A2 and a GM 6P that I had to remind *them* about how long we could stay in certain areas. They were paying attention to the Surefires while I was paying attention to our dosimeters. Much longer and we might not have needed torches to light our way. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


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## brightnorm (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: \"Tricks\" to calm airport security*

[ QUOTE ]
*[email protected] said:*
Here are some pics of Brightnorm's ID-card. 









/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif 

Edited to show current card. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif 

[/ QUOTE ]

[email protected],

Thanks once again for doing this for me. Do you think there's a way to restore the second one to its original pale blue? I could mail it to you again if you like.

Actually I think an "official" card might be nice. I've never been really happy with mine but I couldn't come up with anything I thought was better for its purpose. As someone mentioned we once had a lot of discussion about this (along with ideas for a CPF tee shirt) but it never
generated enough interest to be seriously pursued.

Perhaps the best approach is for any Flashaholic who wants a card to simply create his own.

Brightnorm


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## brightnorm (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: \"Tricks\" to calm airport security*

[ QUOTE ]
*Gman said:*
... And now that we have the "door of doom" installed in all airplanes no one can get in and we're not supposed to leave the front office for any reason. This leaves armed crew locked up front but the FAs and Pax helpless. Again, make sense to you?...

[/ QUOTE ]

Gman, I guess FAs are flight assistants, but I'm not sure what Pax are, or how you go to the john in that little cockpit. 

[ QUOTE ]
...I recently spend a month in Russia and Ukraine...many of those guys were absolutely fascinated by my A2...Course, the cost of an A2 is twice the average monthly salary for cops from these countries...

[/ QUOTE ]

We sometimes forget how privileged we are as Americans

[ QUOTE ]
I could also tell you about recently spending a week at Chernobyl...

[/ QUOTE ]

Your profession gives you entree to fascinating worlds most of us never enter

Brightnorm


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## brightnorm (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: \"Tricks\" to calm airport security*

EXCELLENT HOT-COLD LAMINATOR 

If anyone might have use for a laminator, this is the hot/cold laminator I use. It's small, cheap, does an excellent job and can handle cards/photos up to 4". There is some question as to how certain laser/ink jet/photos will handle the heat and pressure, but I've never had a problem.

Brightnorm


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## logicnerd411 (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: \"Tricks\" to calm airport security*

[ QUOTE ]
*brightnorm said:*
Do you think there's a way to restore the second one to its original pale blue? I could mail it to you again if you like.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can do it yourself; [email protected] hosted it under my webhosting and anyone can access it by following the instructions in the link in my sig. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Dan


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## Tomas (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re:*

Heheheheh ...

I couldn't resist changing just _one_ word on this ... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif 










/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink2.gif


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## brightnorm (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: \"Tricks\" to calm airport security*

[ QUOTE ]
*logicnerd411 said:*
[ QUOTE ]
*brightnorm said:*
Do you think there's a way to restore the second one to its original pale blue? I could mail it to you again if you like.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can do it yourself; [email protected] hosted it under my webhosting and anyone can access it by following the instructions in the link in my sig. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Dan 

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks Dan

BN


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## Gman (Jun 28, 2003)

*Re: \"Tricks\" to calm airport security*

Sorry about that. Yes, FAs are Flight Attendents. "PAX" are you...the passengers. We can leave the front to use the lav when needed. My profession only gives me access to cheap travel, anyone can do as I with a little effort and the cash. I prefer non-tourist destinations for vacations because the travel benefits allowed me to burn through the typical tourist destinations rather quickly. I also have a fondness for Ukraine and Russia, it's peoples and cultures. Not only that, but the women are very special. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif 

I afraid I'll have to withold my comments on how "privileged" we might be as Americans (especially these days), I've traveled too much to share that opinion. In fact, I'm thinking of retiring elsewhere. It's a big world and I feel the US is no longer all it's cracked up to be, but thats another story.


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## brightnorm (Jun 29, 2003)

*Re: \"Tricks\" to calm airport security*

[ QUOTE ]
*Gman said:*
... I also have a fondness for Ukraine and Russia, it's peoples and cultures. Not only that, but the women are very special. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif...I afraid I'll have to withold my comments on how "privileged" we might be as Americans (especially these days), I've traveled too much to share that opinion. In fact, I'm thinking of retiring elsewhere. It's a big world and I feel the US is no longer all it's cracked up to be, but thats another story. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I've never had a Russian girlfriend, but even if I did she'd probably be a Russian-American and I guess you don't mean that.

Your post was intriguing, but I'm way off topic so I'll quit now.

Brightnorm


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## brightnorm (Jun 29, 2003)

*Re: \"Tricks\" to calm airport security*

[ QUOTE ]
*logicnerd411 said:*
[ QUOTE ]
*brightnorm said:*
Do you think there's a way to restore the second one to its original pale blue? I could mail it to you again if you like.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can do it yourself; [email protected] hosted it under my webhosting and anyone can access it by following the instructions in the link in my sig. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Dan 

[/ QUOTE ]

I just signed up for Image Station and I'll have to play around with it for a while until I get the hang of it.

Meanwhile, I'll ask [email protected] to delete the second card.

BN


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## shankus (Jul 1, 2003)

*Re: \"Tricks\" to calm airport security*

[ QUOTE ]
*logicnerd411 said:*
Look here for the new free service I'm providing to the CPF masses: http://www.tjtech.org/~CPF/readme.php


[/ QUOTE ]
Is the site down? I uploaded all my pics there, but haven't been able to access the site for a couple of days.


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## Bushman (Jul 1, 2003)

*Re: \"Tricks\" to calm airport security*

Brightnorm, I have no objection to the light that you used on the card. That light used to be mine!!! I know exactly what kind of light that it is, who did the mod, and what was done to it. My only question is why did you pick that particular light to be on the card??? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif Gleefuly and respectfully, Bushman /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## brightnorm (Jul 2, 2003)

*Re: \"Tricks\" to calm airport security*

[ QUOTE ]
*Bushman said:*
Brightnorm, I have no objection to the light that you used on the card. That light used to be mine!!! I know exactly what kind of light that it is, who did the mod, and what was done to it. My only question is why did you pick that particular light to be on the card??? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif Gleefuly and respectfully, Bushman /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif 

[/ QUOTE ]

Bushman,

Talk about a coincidence! It must have felt like seeing an old friend. I was looking for something immediately identifiable to a layperson as a hand holding a flashlight that was perhaps slightly different than an ordinary flashlight. Also, the pic had to be light enough so that superimposed text could be easily read. Even when I ligtened up some pics it was hard to eee the text. I searched around quite a bit and saw Aragorns (your) mod and it seemed to be the right pic. I vertically stretched it a bit. Did you sell it, lose it, and how was it?

Brightnorm


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## Bushman (Jul 3, 2003)

*Re: \"Tricks\" to calm airport security*

No the light was mine only in stock form... I traded something for it, now I don't remember what. Then He cut it down...I don't really know anymore about the light than what is posted on the page, as I have never seen it in person in its modified state.


----------



## Pellidon (May 2, 2004)

*Airline Security Rant*

I fly about 15-20 times per year on business. I always take a large toolkit that is checked. For 18 years there has been no troubles with it. One kit was a wood roller skate style box for those old enough to know. It was a flimsy POS. It went out on several flights and only needed a touchup of paint now and then. The past year TSA has lost the contents of my new pelican 1550 kit four times and damaged several items on numerous occasions. Most of it at my home airport. I have had several return flights from overseas and the bags were in pristine condidion like I packed them. TSA just does not care. Or they delight in damaging/losing things. 

They have a setup where if they are called to task they are not even liable for damages. My home airport security is done behind closed doors where we can't see it. Where it is in the open my bags are fine. 

Just venting steam. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rant.gif Anyone else had these goons trash your bags? Maybe I should start a poll.


----------



## BC0311 (May 2, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

Sounds like someone is stealing your stuff.

4 times! That's disgusting. I think if you took the brain out of the skull of alot of those people and placed it on the edge of a razor blade it'd look like a marble rolling down a 4 lane highway. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif 

But this sounds like just plain old felony theft.


----------



## rycen (May 2, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

On another forum someone who tavels with a high dollar collection of blades in a pelican case said the he asked for this to be hand inspected at check in.After this inspection he is allowed to put a lock on the cade.Now the only problem is the case getting to the destination safely.


----------



## tygger (May 2, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

Sorry for your repeated losses Pellidon. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jpshakehead.gif That possibility is why I always have my flashlights in a carry on. The only thing I'm going to stress about is when I plan to go camping and have to check a $500 backpack with about about $2000 worth of jackets, sleeping bags, tent, etc. It seems too easy to unzip a nice backpack and take whatever you want while its rolling on the conveyer belt. Oh well, I guess there's always travelers insurance.


----------



## tylerdurden (May 2, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

I agree the TSA is a big waste of taxpayers' time and money. Have you considered shipping your tools? It sounds like a pain, but it may be more convienient than the alternative.


----------



## Size15's (May 3, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

More and more people are sending their high value / high importance items via DHL/FedEx/UPS etc.

Al


----------



## stockwiz (May 3, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

All federalizing airline security has done has brought in a bunch of underqualified and overpaid government workers to replace a system that was in perfectly working order anyways. It has made flying a real pain to the point where I don't even bother flying anymore unless I really have to.


----------



## JerryM (May 3, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

stockwiz,
[ replace a system that was in perfectly working order anyways.]

Where have you been? Do you remember 9/11?

Jerry


----------



## McGizmo (May 3, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

JerryM,

Even with the new system, I believe a motivated person could getsomething on board equally as effective as a box cutter. I won't go into details here in public for hopefully obvious reasons. However I thing there is a big difference now, post 9/11. I don't think a few people could take control of an aircraft by wielding some edged weapons.

I used to always have a backpack as carry on that had a small kit of tools in it. On one flight, an attendant asked around for a small pointed probe as there was some smoke coming from the headrest of one of the seats. I provide what was essentially a minature Ice Pick and the tool worked in allowing her to pop some access panel and remedy what ever the problem was?!?!? 

It would be real unfortunate if some problem developed on a plane that required a philips screw driver and no tools were available, even from a passenger group of a couple hundred people!

Sniffing for explosives and other chemicals is one thing but confiscating small tools, nail clippers and such seem like a joke to me!

The old system may not have worked but I think the cost of the new system, including the lost man hours in the process of waiting and check in time as well as gas burned in traffic congestion around the airports is likely only marginally improving the *real* security. I think this whole deal is more for providing a "sense" of security to the traveling public. Now if we were all to board in our birthday suits after full cavity searches, I would agree that the system would be increasing the probability of weapons not getting on board via the passengers.


----------



## Greymage (May 3, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

I remember many years ago, long before 9/11, I had some high-speed film in a lead bag. The screener not only opened my bag, she manually opened each film canister. That seemed really stupid to me... I mean, pretty much anything that could fit in the canister I could fit inside the film roll itself...


----------



## James S (May 3, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

[ QUOTE ]
Where have you been? Do you remember 9/11?

[/ QUOTE ]

The system of carry on baggage checkers was only half responsible for this. As far as i know (or can remember) the terrorists smuggled 2 things on which they used to take over the planes. Pepper spray and razor blades or box cutters.

The first, pepper spray has never been allowed and should have been taken from them while going through security. The second, the box cutters and razor blades have always been allowed, up until that afternoon.

If they had taken the pepper spray from them, they probably could have done their deed anyway. They had the most powerful psychological weapon of all, the people on the first 2 planes believed them when they told them that if they sat still they would live through it. That particular bit of weaponry is gone forever now, as proven by the hero's on the 3rd plane. NO planeload of people is ever going to let those guys have the plane again.

Taking my nail clippers as I board is quite a bit past the line of the absurd. Randomly doing a scan for explosive residue is about the only thing they do that they should be doing more of. That and having plain clothed policemen on the planes. Knowing that there will be a guy with a gun on board watching for you has got to be good security as well. So fire the guy that made my 3 year old daughter take her shoes off to go through the metal detector and hire more of the others.


----------



## McGizmo (May 3, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

James,

Thanks for the breath of sanity!


----------



## Greymage (May 3, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

[ QUOTE ]
*James S said:*
Taking my nail clippers as I board is quite a bit past the line of the absurd. Randomly doing a scan for explosive residue is about the only thing they do that they should be doing more of. That and having plain clothed policemen on the planes. Knowing that there will be a guy with a gun on board watching for you has got to be good security as well. So fire the guy that made my 3 year old daughter take her shoes off to go through the metal detector and hire more of the others. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, the nail clipper thing I think is really silly - as you said, no hijacker without guns/explosives or something as lethal is going to be able to take over a plane again. And I agree, it would be better to have better scanning for explosives/gunpowder than to spend time doing more manual scanning. 

As far as your 3-year old daughter goes... I wouldn't put anything past these kinds of fanatics, I'm sure they'd be perfectly capable of using a 3-year old as a carrier...


----------



## cheesehead (May 3, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

I was told that some places won't let you take a rechargeable flashlight on board (but he let me take the mag on anyway-I must look harmless). Hmm, I don't understand the logic there.


----------



## brightnorm (May 3, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

This is a sore subject for me; inconsistant policies are bad enough but safety is crucial and there are alarming holes in the system. I wear running shoes when I fly but I have been told "no sir, you don't have to take those off; running shoes are OK". Actually, there is plenty of space in most running shoes to insert heel lifts (between foot and shoe) containing enough C4 to terminate any flight. When I (stupidly) mentioned this to one of the checkers the response was "don't worry about that, sir".

And what about those secure cabin doors - even if all planes had them, sooner or later a pilot or crew member will have to use the bathroom, and few if any planes have cockpit johns. Any "evildoers" sitting in the front, armed with undetectable sharpened plastic implements can be in the cockpit in a flash, before any armed marshall can react, and quickly overwhelm armed pilots. (Though I can imagine a partial remedy for this).

Supply personnel of all types have (or recently had) relatively free access to vulnerable areas. A refueler has ample opportunity to work mischief. Etc.

Scanning explosives sniffers are sparsely deployed for checked baggage and virtually nonexistant for passengers and carry-ons

Ever since I was in a private plane crash (no fatalities or serious injuries through sheer dumb luck) I have been very afraid of flying though I do manage to do it anyway, but I feel more afraid now than ever because of woefully inadequate security.

We need brilliant and dedicated people heading and running an adequately funded Dept of Homeland Security so it can become a truly effective organization. Unfortunately we are depressingly far from that goal.

Brightnorm


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (May 3, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

It is patetnly ridiculous to take away nail clippers or tools (but obviously not let swarthy a$$holes have such).

And I don't honestly believe ANY plane is going to be taken. Maybe blown up, but NEVER taken over.

Here, here to what Brightnorm said! I ain't the current administrations biggest fan! But just imagine the OTHER party in charge!!!!


----------



## stockwiz (May 3, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

Amen... to all three of your points.


----------



## Pellidon (May 3, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

To UPS/DHL/FedEx a 40# toolkit when one has maybe 24-48 hours advance notice is expen$ive and not a guarantee it will arrive when I do. 

Recent trips back from Gatwick and Istanbul the security was thorough but not riddled with amateurism and vandalism. 

The TSA complaint line rep told me to file a claim (my third if I do) and to get one of the TSA compliant locks. How that makes the contents magically vandal resistant is beyond me. Maybe a tachyion organization matrix field is projected and the parts reassembled or some such thing. 

We did find a website where TSA sells the things they "find" on the floor that "dropped" out of bags by "mistake". A good cottage industry. 

My lights travel with me on the plane. The "sex toy" light I got at Maplin's two weeks ago caused them concern but once it was demoed as a light he let it go. When asked why I carry so much stuff I reply that if not the people downstairs will steal it. 

The whole effort is one of those visual eye candy things that makes some happy to see that "something" is being done. Proper security, training, action does not need "Thousands Standing Around" in crisp white shirts with embroridered badges looking official. To the cynical (me) or the devious there are work arounds to such issues. Any LEO who works in lockups or prisons can attest to the inventiveness of such individuals, even with limited means.

TSA must be a haven for those who did not make the cut as Wal Mart greeters. Or the only skill needed is a loud voice and the ability to memorize "there are two lines".


----------



## brightnorm (May 3, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

[ QUOTE ]
*Pellidon said:*
... The "sex toy" light I got at Maplin's...

[/ QUOTE ] The one that resembles a Kegel excerciser or a different one?

Brightnorm


----------



## BC0311 (May 3, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crackup.gif Oh man, you're bad BN. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yellowlaugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/yellowlaugh.gif


----------



## NewBie (May 4, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

IMHO, the new security is really all for show, and doesn't really actually do much. Just makes citizens feel safer.

They routinely fail tests, where various articles are placed in things, or on persons....


----------



## tylerdurden (May 4, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

[ QUOTE ]
*JerryM said:*
stockwiz,
[ replace a system that was in perfectly working order anyways.]

Where have you been? Do you remember 9/11?

Jerry 

[/ QUOTE ]

Jerry, you're assuming the system is intended to actually stop bad guys. It isn't. It's only intended to make it look like "something is being done." For that purpose it works exceptionally well, until you actually stop and think about it.


----------



## Avix (May 4, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

in May (I think) of 2002 I went to our local small airport (30 flight minutes from the Handford Nuke Reservation) to pick up a friend, I had a 5 gallon can of gas in my trunk along with a empty rifle case, I was "searched" by a PO at the entrance to parking lot, asked "is that gas in the can?", answered yes, was not asked about the rifle case at all. and was told it was ok to park right in front of the terminal.

we won't talk about claimes for theft from luggage on domestic flights going way up since TSA took over.

or the TSA agent I know who refuses to fly.


----------



## Unicorn (May 4, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

I think that checking little kids (yes even diapers), and old people is not at all rediculous. What better place to hide a bomb than a smelly diaper? These are great places to hide stuff because of the attitudes displayed here: "that's granny, she's not a threat," or "it's just a child." Why be obvious with what you're doing?
Unlike on TV C4 is not like modelers clay, it is very stiff and rubbery, and it would actually take more than the amount in a shoe to damamge an airplane. Again, unlike hte movies and TV, blowing out one or two windows will not cause the plane to fall apart, or for anyone to get sucked out the window. Remember the Hawaiin Airlines plane that had part of the fuselodge ripped off? Only a flight attendant was sucked out, and that was a very large section of metal missing. The plane landed safely as well.
Everyone wants explosive sniffers. They aren't that great. They are expensive, and most importantly, they take time to use properly. People already whine about the time it takes. You'd have to double or triple it to check every piece of luggage properly.
Before 9/11 knives with a blade length of under 4 inches was legal. Box cutters weren't banned at all.
The main reason that we don't have adequate security ANYWHERE, is that people don't want the hassle that MUST go hand in hand with it. Until we get security guards/police, etc that are psychics, people will not allow any agency to have the needed security for more than a day or two. It takes time to search people and objects, it's a hassle to have to show your ID badge, and wear it around visibly all day, it's demeaning for a fine upstanding American to be searched like some foreigner, whatever.


----------



## brightnorm (May 4, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

Unicorn,

Your sobering view makes me think that things may not get better until detection technology catches up with the reality of human behavior and attitudes. Quick and accurate scanners funded at least in part by the Fed Government may contribute significantly to the solution, but I'm not holding my breath.

I didn't realize that two heels full of C4 (or other explosive of choice)would not pose a real threat to an airliner. Does this mean that the "shoe bomber" (forgot his name) was never a real danger to that flight?

Brightnorm


----------



## Avix (May 5, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

he wasn't really, it wouldn't have done the aircraft any good, but it was extreamly unlikely to have blown them out of the sky. and as for the explosives sniffer, all my clothes and all my luggage as well as me would test positive, I handload and my wife gardens, last time she tried to make a fight she was delayed almost a full day because she kept testing positive for explosives.

and if YOU were going to put a weapon on a plane, would you use Osama ben whoever, or 93 year old Grandmaw Mable and her cute little 3 year old blond haired blue eyed great granddaughter?

only way to stop em is armed citizens.


----------



## utomatoe (May 6, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

Camera equipment is nice. Get a nice big bag and they open it.. take a look, and decide it's not worth it, zip it back up. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Small camera bag? Prepare for everything to be taken out. I'm still pissed off that some of them *insist* on "helping" me repack my things. Of course they screw it all up.. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif

I find if it's too much effort for them to search, they normally don't bother. 

I'm not a lawyer, but if the TSA keeps damaging your goods, I'd consider suing them if you have the resources. Despite the disclaimer/waiver, etc. There remains a duty of care of an inspector to act in a reasonable and professional manner that I don't believe can be waived.

Of course, finding evidence of the screeners negligence would probably be hard to obtain...

There is a good book on this stuff... http://www.schneier.com/book-beyondfear.html

Brightnorm, any amount of c4 could cause significant damage. You might not be able to takedown the plane, but you could still kill quite of few people.

It's all about timing and placement. Placed correctly and say at landing or takeoff, an explosion could be devastating.


----------



## Unicorn (May 6, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

That small amount of C4 would not have done as much damage as people seem to think. It would not have taken down the plane unless very expertly placed on something like the fuel tank, or main controls in the cockpit. C4 doesn't even have all that much blast to it. It would have blown out a window or two, and definately cause seome permanent hearing damage, blown eardrums mostly, but even though it's more powerfull than TNT, it wouldn't have been as dangerous to the passengers individually. Against the fuselage, using his own body as a tamping device, it would hav created a hole, probably (I say probably because I don't know the exact amount of explosive he had, how many ounces it was) on to maybe as much as two feet across. A one and a quarter pound block will blow a hole large enough for a man to pass (hunched over and stepping over the bottom) through in most simpler types of construction, like brick, non reinforced cinderblock. i'm not even sure about th cinderblock as it's been a while since I looked up the effects exactly.
The reason that I'm so cyncal about people and security has to do with my working security for the past few years, both private companies and in government contracts.
My exprience with C4 comes from being a Combat Engineer, just a Guardsman now, but still do a live demo range at least once a year, and many classes on it.


----------



## Aten_Imago (May 6, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

Pellidon
I have a contact at TSA, I'll take the matter up with them. They seem always to be responsive to my 'polite' - if caustic complaints.
Stay tuned... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
[ QUOTE ]
*Pellidon said:*
I fly about 15-20 times per year on business. I always take a large toolkit that is checked. For 18 years there has been no troubles with it. One kit was a wood roller skate style box for those old enough to know. It was a flimsy POS. It went out on several flights and only needed a touchup of paint now and then. The past year TSA has lost the contents of my new pelican 1550 kit four times and damaged several items on numerous occasions. Most of it at my home airport. I have had several return flights from overseas and the bags were in pristine condidion like I packed them. TSA just does not care. Or they delight in damaging/losing things. 

They have a setup where if they are called to task they are not even liable for damages. My home airport security is done behind closed doors where we can't see it. Where it is in the open my bags are fine. 

Just venting steam. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rant.gif Anyone else had these goons trash your bags? Maybe I should start a poll. 

[/ QUOTE ]


----------



## Kristofg (May 6, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

[ QUOTE ]
*Avix said:*only way to stop em is armed citizens. 

[/ QUOTE ]
But than what is setting the terrorists apart from the armed citizens? This would just mean that the terrorists would need better marksmen or more men in order to take over the plane. It would make it totally impossible to differentiate between civilian defence and an armed terrorist. Imagine the nightmare SWAT teams would have to go trough when boarding those planes.
"I see you have an AK-47 with you sir, are you a terrorist or defending the plane?" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


----------



## BB (May 6, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

Don't leave your luggage unattended:

UK: Man Jailed 

[ QUOTE ]
Jail for man who left bag in airport
By Philip Johnston, Home Affairs Editor
(Filed: 06/05/2004)

A plumber who left an unattended bag containing a teddy bear, some fruit and clothes in an airport lounge was jailed yesterday for causing a full-scale security alert.

Magistrates sentenced Jose da Silva, 25, to 10 days under public nuisance laws.

Da Silva was waiting for a flight home to Portugal last Sunday when he left the hold-all in a departure lounge while he went for a cigarette at Birmingham international airport 

[/ QUOTE ] 

I believe that arrest and jail time is wrong--but if I was the cop that had to inspect every unattended bag in a major airport, I am not sure that I would not be in favor of "sending a message."

-Bill


----------



## lightemup (May 6, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

I would have thought a stern warning and a public announcement would have been in order... On the very limited information provided on this case I believe the punishment is silly. In current times with elevated threat assessments of terrorism I can understand the concern on the part of authorities, although I think there are better way to deal with this particular situation. Think of that person now having a criminal record, and a terrorism related one at that! 

Was there adequate advertisement that leaving your bag is an offence? 

Was the person in question displaying any other suspicious behaviour to warrant the punishment?

It is events such as these that highlight some of the more subtle influences terrorism has had on our world /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jpshakehead.gif especially pertaining to civil liberties...

Just what I think from the above info /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif


----------



## tylerdurden (May 6, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

[ QUOTE ]
*Kristofg said:*
[ QUOTE ]
*Avix said:*only way to stop em is armed citizens. 

[/ QUOTE ]
But than what is setting the terrorists apart from the armed citizens? This would just mean that the terrorists would need better marksmen or more men in order to take over the plane. It would make it totally impossible to differentiate between civilian defence and an armed terrorist. Imagine the nightmare SWAT teams would have to go trough when boarding those planes.
"I see you have an AK-47 with you sir, are you a terrorist or defending the plane?" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif 

[/ QUOTE ]

If enough citizens fight back (which won't be a problem post 9/11), by the time the SWAT team is even CALLED, much less by the time they get to the plane, the whole thing will be over. How, exactly, are they going to board an in-flight plane, anyway?

Issuing AK-47s to passengers isn't the solution, but taking nail clippers isn't doing any good, either.


----------



## BB (May 6, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

Apparently, it was not an offense to leave the bag un-attended:

[ QUOTE ]

Speaking through an interpreter and in tears, da Silva, who pleaded not guilty to *creating a public nuisance*, told the court in Solihull that he had no intention of causing such a huge security operation.

But Howard Turner, the chairman of the bench, said while da Silva had not intended to cause the alert the offence was serious enough to warrant a prison sentence.

[/ QUOTE ]

But it was the (over?) reaction of the airport staff that made it so serious.

So--if you are a suicide bomber, remember to keep your luggage,personal effects, and bombs with you at all times...

-Bill


----------



## Avix (May 6, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

hmm, 6 terrorists armed with AK-47s

127 honest law abiding passengers armed with 9mm pistols...

wannt bet who my bet is on to win?


----------



## McGizmo (May 6, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

As a smoker ( I know, I know /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif ) I can relate to this guy's plight! If I am traveling alone, I go through the security gauntlet way in advance of my flight as we are instructed to do. I then go to my gate and check out the time and situation. Then, since most airports don't have the poorly ventilated smoking boxes (you don't need to light up), I head back outside and proceed to get my nicotine level above typical so I can go back through the cattle gates and graze with others while the rapid process of "transportation by air" unfolds..... 

If a mere fraction of all of the tobacco revenue were allocated to functional smoking lounges in airports, those of us who have "paid" into the system could reap some benefit from the taxes paid.

On my last flight (return from Maui) our scheduled departure on 2:30 PM on a thursday ended up becoming an actual departure at 11:30 AM: on Friday. Due to security and baggage check in considerations, we all spent this extra "quality" time limited to our carry on baggage. Periodic 15 minute updates ended 5 hours after our scheduled departure time and we were herded onto busses. 

Not that any non smoker would give a sh$t but the whole airline process now is great for low stress and enjoyable travel! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif I know some who need liquid courage for flying. They may not care about my smokes but if airports were to become "dry" as well as smoke free, perhaps they could see my discomfort; especially if the flights were "dry" as well.

Oh well, it's all trivial when one considers the greater good!


----------



## tygger (May 6, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

Everyone packing on an airplane huh? "Hello, welcome to SIILLAT (Shoot-if-it-looks-like-a-terrorits) Airlines. Will you be sitting in the Heavy, Assault, or Small Arms section? Everyone please remember to double check your saftey before boarding, thank you."


----------



## lightemup (May 6, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

My bet is on the manufacturer winning, and insurance company and the occupants of the aircraft losing, as the aircraft would end up like a piece of swiss cheese /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif 

At present I can't think of how a set of nail clippers can be used to such advantage (except psychological). For someone with one of these, i'd begrudgingly go toe to toe with my rolled up inflight magazine and food tray /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/twakfl.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/knight.gif. Also, I could use one of the six 'security screening proof' guitar cases in Avix's scenario /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Personally I believe in the denial of weapons on board, except for those with appropriate training (i.e. air marshals). From my perspective, this includes the aircrew, as suspects should presumably be 'unarmed' if the security process is adequate. If the pilots do not act in an appropriate way (I presume they would have received some level of training anyway), the suspects could very easily become armed /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif so unless they start putting food out on trays with Level III protection /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif i'll now be disadvantaged /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif ... 
Just my 2 cents...


----------



## Avix (May 6, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

what tygger? no comment of "blood running red in the aisles"?? CCW permit holders in the 33 states that have them (not counting the 2 states that don't require a permit) have fewer "wrong shoots" than Police officers do. 10's of thousands of legal gun owners carry every day without shooting anyone. but up to 2 million times a year they DO use them in defence of themselves and others.

I find your comment ignorant.

I see your the type who would prefer to be shot out of the sky by a USAF Fighter rather than let someone defend themselves and stop the terrorists. bet you think the people in those airliners shouldn't have tried to overpower the terrorist either.


----------



## James S (May 6, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

Tygger, you'll find me in the small arms section. I already carry enough stuff, adding a larger rifle or something would just make it too much of a pain to travel. I'd probably bring something with a nice long barrel though, to increase my chances of being able to take out the terrorist along the long axis of the plane...


It's not practical to expect everyone flying to bring a weapon /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif Perhaps though we could setup a testing range at the airport. get their early and test out. If you pass the marksmanship contest then you're allowed to carry, otherwise you have to check it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Perhaps the top shots on the plane could compete for the remaining first class seats! You'll be hearing things like "I'm sorry sir, but if you want that 3rd bloody mary you're going to have to let me stow your Glock for you"


I'm sure there are those that will not appreciate that as a joke, I'm sorry.

That being said I'm a big fan of the air marshal program. Since we know that the security checkpoints are to make sure the big guy oozing over into your seat doesn't decide to clip his toenails during the flight (which, hey, really if you think about it, they should have been confiscating nail clippers from the beginning, I don't want his clippings in my drink.) They are the best deterrent. There is a trained guy there with a gun who is going to kill you before you take your first hostage. We need more of these folks on the payroll! That is something I'll pay for.


----------



## brightnorm (May 6, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

[ QUOTE ]
*James S said:*
...I'm a big fan of the air marshal program... 

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed,

The main impediment will probably be cost. It would be nice to have every flight covered but that will be very expensive, especially for the big planes that require several marshalls. I'd be willing to pay a small surcharge per flight if that was the only way to provide adequate coverage. 

I'm assuming the marshalls would be decently paid, backgrounds very thoroughly checked and bio-identification mandatory. Wouldn't want to have any nasties masquerading as marshalls.

Brightnorm


----------



## Pellidon (May 7, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

Weapons on the plane is not the answer. Rifles are too large to fit in the overhead compartment or underneath the seat. Besides there would be no room for all those carryon bags the size of a Mini-Cooper. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinser2.gif

Maybe my first post was unclear. I have a camera case but it is filled with tools, wrenches pliers screwdrivers and parts to fix electronic equipment. The camera, flashlights, PDA, Entertainment device (Gameboy) and several hundred miles of charger cables never leave my side. Funny thing is that my tiny digital camera still resides in my large Domke canvas bag that I used to carry all my 35mm stuff in. Now all the pouches that held lenses and film now hold other "stuff" and one pouch holds the charger, camera and memory. No way I would trust those monkeys (remember the American Tourister ads from the 70's?) down below. 

My beef is it takes me three to five minutes to empty the case and repack it. Why not "Highly trained personel". 

I did get an email from the Indianapolis TSA Liason, an MBA. Wants more info. Shouldn't the Liason be an ex MP or Special forces type and not an accountant? Oh nevermind it is the Government we are dealing with. Send flip flops and bermuda shorts to the troups in Antartica and winter camo parkas to the troups in the desert. Bureaucratic quirkiness is the only constant in the universe I think.


----------



## BB (May 7, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

Yep, I am a real big fan of air marshals. I feel safer already.

[ QUOTE ]
Mon Apr 12, 2004 10:35 AM ET
CHICAGO (Reuters) - A federal air marshal accidentally left her gun in a restroom beyond the security checkpoints at Cleveland Hopkins International Airport, officials say.

The weapon was discovered by a passenger who alerted an airline employee.

The marshal remained on the job after Thursday's incident when she visited an airport restroom and inadvertently left her gun behind, Dave Adams, spokesman for the Federal Air Marshal Service in Washington, said Saturday.

The restroom was beyond security checkpoints, airport spokeswoman Pat Smith said. So the risk was that someone could have discovered the gun and taken it on a flight.

"Right now we're still doing the investigation," Adams said. "It will determine what disciplinary action will be appropriate."

He declined to identify the marshal for security reasons, but said her work in the past had been "outstanding."

[/ QUOTE ]


----------



## 14C (May 7, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

They are human.


----------



## BB (May 7, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

So was the "plumber who left an unattended bag containing a teddy bear, some fruit and clothes in an airport lounge."

Difference is one left a teddy bear behind and got 10 days in jail. The other left a loaded firearm behind and they "said her work in the past had been "outstanding.""

I am getting really tired of "persecution" of the law abiding public and "understanding" for those that have taken our rights from us.

I am not saying that we should hang the air marshal--but were is the proportion in all of this?

-Bill


----------



## jhereg (May 7, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

[ QUOTE ]
*lightemup said:*
Personally I believe in the denial of weapons on board, except for those with appropriate training (i.e. air marshals). From my perspective, this includes the aircrew, as suspects should presumably be 'unarmed' if the security process is adequate. If the pilots do not act in an appropriate way (I presume they would have received some level of training anyway), the suspects could very easily become armed /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsdown.gif so unless they start putting food out on trays with Level III protection /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif i'll now be disadvantaged /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif ... 
Just my 2 cents... 

[/ QUOTE ]

It might be a good idea, if it worked. It won't because we are looking at the loopholes we have closed instead of the ones they will exploit next time. We are giving up liberty & freedom for the illusion of security. What we are getting is a bunch of unarmed sheep in a tube.


----------



## BB (May 7, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

"Sheep in a tube"... Sounds like something they would sell in Australia to go with Vegemite... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif 

-Bill



_Fixed link_


----------



## tygger (May 7, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

Avix, Avix, Avix, woa, down boy, down. Obviously you don't relate well to humor. That post was HUMOR. It didn't relate my position about firearms in any way. But now i will share my opinion. For your information i do legally own firearms and do support responsible concealed carry laws. So there. But no, on planes, i don't think it would be a good idea to have firearms carried by passengers. Pilots with handguns, yes, more air marshals, yes, a much better passenger screening system, yes. But in the mean time i'd rather not have average joe from down the street sitting next to me with an HK.


----------



## Kristofg (May 7, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

[ QUOTE ]
*Avix said:*
what tygger? no comment of "blood running red in the aisles"?? CCW permit holders in the 33 states that have them (not counting the 2 states that don't require a permit) have fewer "wrong shoots" than Police officers do. 10's of thousands of legal gun owners carry every day without shooting anyone. but up to 2 million times a year they DO use them in defence of themselves and others.


[/ QUOTE ]

No he's making the valid point that terrorists then become a democracy (considering that both the terrorists and the regular packing citizens can shoot equally well)
If you have more armed terrorists than armed passengers, the surviving terrorist will be able to highjack the plane and still do whatever he wants. And BTW, does this make bullet-proof vests a liability? 

But even so, the point would be that if you allow normal passengers to carry weapons, you would also have to allow terrorists to do so (you can't recognise them when boarding, except when they are brining C4 or explosive devices then) and once on the plane, even though the terrorists will be killed before they can highjack the plane, they will have the chance to kill and wound a number of passengers.

Air Marshals would be fine though. When they are the only one carrying weapons, anybody else they spot with a weapon automatically becomes a target.


----------



## Kristofg (May 7, 2004)

*Re: Flying with flashlights*

[ QUOTE ]
*tylerdurden said:*If enough citizens fight back (which won't be a problem post 9/11), by the time the SWAT team is even CALLED, much less by the time they get to the plane, the whole thing will be over. How, exactly, are they going to board an in-flight plane, anyway?


[/ QUOTE ]

I meant when they have landed the plane or before take-off. If everybody is allowed a weapon, how do you recognise the difference between the terrorist and an armed civilian.

The in-flight problem will be that the armed civilian can only kill a terrorist and not try to hit fellow passengers (think of the lawsuits they'd get) but for the terrorist, every killed civilian is acceptable.

let's say a passenger gets up, threatens to use a weapon, a fellow passenger shoots him, now who is going to say that a third passenger is'nt going to shoot the second passenger because he saw number2 firing a gun and thinks number 2 is the terrorist? Or there might be a second terrorist who in turn kills the second passenger with a shot. It's not like bankrobbers with a mask. the hard point is to identify the terrorists. For all it's worth, even a stewardess with a taser stun-gun could take out a terrorist if he's standing in the aisle holding a weapon.


----------



## BC0311 (May 7, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

[ QUOTE ]
*BB said:*
So was the "plumber who left an unattended bag containing a teddy bear, some fruit and clothes in an airport lounge."

Difference is one left a teddy bear behind and got 10 days in jail. The other left a loaded firearm behind and they "said her work in the past had been "outstanding.""

I am getting really tired of "persecution" of the law abiding public and "understanding" for those that have taken our rights from us.

I am not saying that we should hang the air marshal--but were is the proportion in all of this?

-Bill 

[/ QUOTE ]

Very good point. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif


----------



## James S (May 7, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

[ QUOTE ]
CHICAGO (Reuters) - A federal air marshal accidentally left her gun in a restroom beyond the security checkpoints at Cleveland Hopkins International Airport, officials say.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well.. I'm obviously not a fan of that particular air marshall....


----------



## lightemup (May 7, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

I agree with you jehereg about giving up liberty in a broader sense. However I am not sure if I am interpretting your response correctly in terms of aircraft security. Could you please elaborate?

BB, /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crackup.gif But I think you're talking about New Zealand's favourite toast spread! BTW I can't get your link to work /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif


----------



## Avix (May 7, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

lets see, we've had air marshals for the last 20 or 30 years, they sure did a wonderfull job of stopping 9/11, or the shoe bomber, or any of the recent multitude of air rage incidents. few of them, and fewer all the time. (very high rate of non return)

oh, and FYI People. if your a Federal Meat Inspector or a employee of HEW, you can carry a firearm on a aircraft. but if your a non govt employee, well, we know what happens.

and as for "wild fire in the aircraft", your options are, Fight Back, Die at the hands of the Terrorists, Die at the hands of the US Air Force who will be standing by to blow your aircraft out of the sky with all aboard.

I'll take my chances with Bubba in the 3rd row thank you very much.

and tyggr, I've seen responses almost exactly like yours from people who were serious about disarming everyone. I'm sick and tired of being compared to some red neck neo nazi mass murder by Million Mom March type non thinkers. if you comment was indeed ment in humour, then I appoligize. if not, then it stands.

the Govt couldn't stop 9/11, the govt can't stop another one. the only people who did stop such things were the passengers onboard. some paid the ultimate price, others lived to tell the tale. but the PEOPLE stopped this, not the government. I resent the fact that the govt says I have to die at there order rather than have the ability to defend myself.


----------



## James S (May 7, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

[ QUOTE ]
lets see, we've had air marshals for the last 20 or 30 years, they sure did a wonderfull job of stopping 9/11, or the shoe bomber, or any of the recent multitude of air rage incidents. few of them, and fewer all the time. (very high rate of non return)

[/ QUOTE ]

we did?!?! I didn't know about this!! Evidently neither did the terrorists /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I am in the mood to quote Peter Sellers "VHAT GOOD IS A DOOMSDAY VEAPON IF YOU DON'T TELL ANYVONE ABOUT IT!" they should have made a much bigger deal out of the fact.

[ QUOTE ]
the only people who did stop such things were the passengers onboard. some paid the ultimate price, others lived to tell the tale. but the PEOPLE stopped this, not the government.

[/ QUOTE ]

And isn't is interesting that with some reliability, whenever the government or police release enough information for us to find and spot someone, we (the people) invariably keep an eye out and find them! Who found the shooter in Virginia? The police didn't have a clue but as soon as they released the info he was spotted!


----------



## BB (May 7, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

Regarding civilians carrying guns in an airplane--the same reasons given as to why there should not be concealed carry in an airliner are the same ones that are given as to why there should not be CC or weapons ownership by any civilian.

On the other hand, the same reasons as to why there should be CC allowed on an aircraft are the same as to why CC should be allowed by any civilian:

<ul type="square">[*]Chances of an air marshal on any particular flight is probably, at most, 1% or so [*]The ability of a single air marshal to cover 4 or more terrorists on a flight is low [*]The ability of an air marshal to get on board a plane in the air (911 a cop) is zero (excluding Hollywood movies) [*]The ability of a single air marshal to react to non-standard attacks (such as chemical attacks) is probably low [*]Police are more likely than civilians with CC to shoot the wrong person (statistically speaking) [*]Four airliners hijacked on 9/11. Only one was stopped from its final destination--by the passengers using make-shift weapons (such as boiling hot water in metal pots)--not by any government force [*]Civilians are responsible for their own protection (by law and court rulings)
[/list]

The only reasons that these hijackings weren't stopped at all was because:

<ul type="square">[*]All previous terrorist hijackings in the US ended up with the planes landing at an airport and most all hostages being released unharmed (except for one that I remember from 20-30 years ago where a guy with a gun wanted to commit suicide and crashed the plane) [*]Passengers were told to cooperate with the terrorists [*]On at least one flight, the flight crew opened the locked cockpit door because a stewardess was threatened and killed while one of the flight crew watched from behind the locked door. [*]This was a new, unknown, terrorist tactic and everyone else on the plane was un-armed (in the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king)
[/list]

If the government was really concerned about the safety of the public and not about amassing more power through increases in the number of government employees carrying weapons and more draconian laws--they would have simply told the airline companies to arm [and train] the pilots and hire/train flight crews with weapons. Also, they would have enforced our legal visa and illegal immigration statutes... All of the 9/11 hijackers were foreign nationals, and most all of them had over stayed their visas and/or had major problems with their initial visa applications, as well as holding Virginia drivers licenses illegally.

Remember, that airline pilot that is currently not allowed to carry (a federal law that does allow CC by pilots has yet to be followed by the transportation department--or if it is, the numbers of pilots allowed is very small), on his off hours, may be a national guard pilot of that fighter ready to shoot down the next civilian hijacking.

I understand that the low risk of hijackings can increase the statistical chance of problems caused by accidents or worst by having armed crews and/or civilians on board--but we are having weird things happening with the relatively few air marshals onboard already. But to date, I don't see that the government has really done much that would have prevented the original 9/11 hijackings.

-Bill

PS: Thanks LTU--fixed the link.


----------



## McGizmo (May 7, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

I can see both sides of the CC argument but since every state may be different in its laws regarding CC and since flights will often take you from one state to another, not to mention another country, I can't see CC ever getting anywhere. I am refering to the carry of guns here.

However, if we have expensive tools that we need to take with us, for crying out loud, why can't we at least carry these on board? Yes, some of these tools *could* be used as weapons but so can just about anything in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing! 

Guns are not going to be allowed on board. I can accept this . A pocket folder or screwdriver, I can't accept.


----------



## BB (May 7, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

Regarding different states having different gun laws--they shouldn't. Arms are addressed directly in the US Constitution.

About carrying "A pocket folder or screwdriver"... Those are exactly the weapons used on the 9/11 flights (simple plastic box cutters with a thin metal blade). There *was not one gun used in the murder of 3,000 people.

The shoe bomber used plastic explosives and a match--and remember this is after he was held for 24 hours in London, searched and questioned.* If holding, searching, and questioning a suspect for 24 hours does not work--what the heck good is the TSA doing with a few second search by airport security.

If I recall correctly, the 9/11 hijackers also raised questions by airline personnel on 9/11--but because of anti-discrimination laws and court rulings, people were afraid to do anything.

Heck we do know that the FAA and FBI were alerted about the hijackers and even sat with one during his flight lessons:

[ QUOTE ]
_ May 10, 2002 19:16:37 _
*(CBS)* Months before Hani Hanjour is believed to have flown an American Airlines jet into the Pentagon, managers at an Arizona flight school reported him at least five times to the FAA, reports CBS News Correspondent Vince Gonzales. 

They reported him not because they feared he was a terrorist, but because his English and flying skills were so bad, they told the Associated Press, they didn't think he should keep his pilot's license. 

"I couldn't believe he had a commercial license of any kind with the skills that he had," said Peggy Chevrette, the manager for the now-defunct JetTech flight school in Phoenix. 

Reacting to the alert in January 2001, an FAA inspector checked to ensure Hanjour's 1999 license was legitimate and even sat next to him in one of the Arizona classes.
...
Marilyn Ladner, the vice president of Pan Am Flight Academy in Miami – the company that owned JetTech before it closed in the aftermath of Sept. 11 – told CBS News, "We did everything we were supposed to do," in reporting Hanjour. 

Hanjour attended flight schools with two other Pentagon hijackers. And in July last year, an Arizona FBI agent alerted Washington that a large number of Middle Eastern men were taking flying lessons, but he was ignored. 

Then a month later, a Minnesota flight school reported Zacarias Moussaoui to the FBI. He was arrested and is now awaiting trial; the only accused Sept. 11 conspirator who has been caught. 

The Arizona school's alert is the latest revelation about the extent of information the government possessed before Sept. 11 about the hijackers or concerns about a terrorist strike. Last week, the Associated Press reported the FBI in Arizona raised concerns in July 2001 that a large number of Arab students were training at a U.S. flight school and urged FBI headquarters to check all schools nationwide for such students — advice that wasn't followed until after Sept. 11. 

[/ QUOTE ]

And even now, years after 9/11 and one of the "suspect" Arab student pilots, Zacarias Moussaoui , is still sitting in jail awaiting trial (or even possibly release) because of the difficulty in proving anything beyond a reasonable doubt (the US legal standard required for a criminal trial conviction).

So, it comes down to a choice--draconian enforcement of--and more--gun laws? Or enforcement of standing visa and immigration laws.

This is a trick question. No guns used in 9/11. Vast majority of hijackers were in violation of visa application requirements (remember "Visa Express" managed by Travel Agents--In Saudi Arabia??), expired visas, and holders of fraudulent state ID cards (virtually the equivalent of US ID Cards--which we don't have).

*New and/or existing* Gun laws enforced--we still would have had 9/11. *Existing*Visa/Immigration laws enforced by state and local cops who already had contacts (such as simple traffic stops and the issuing of fradulent Virgina driver licences by the state of Virgina) with some of these hijackers (but usually prohibited from immigration law enforcement)--no 9/11.

Chances of another 9/11 using same techniques--very little *because of* civilians (air crew and passengers). Not because a small number of Federal Air Marshals or any new laws passed by governments.

-Bill


----------



## CiTY (May 7, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

I say get rid of TSA and put a marshall on every flight! It might even be cheaper!


----------



## BB (May 7, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

A quick search showed that there are something on the order of 70,000 airline pilots (not including management) and somewhere between 40-57,000 TSA employees (including management?).

Hmmm... Arming pilots who are already on every flight and as "captain" responsible for every aspect of the fight, including safety. The pilots are medically and psychologically reviewed every 6 months by a flight surgeon and, of course, receive continuous flight training and reviews. If you don't trust a pilot with a gun, then heaven forbid you trust one to fly the plane (or that fighter jet with cannons and rockets just outside you window).

So basically, you would have to exchange, currently, low wage, low skill employees with fully trained law enforcement folks, and probably double the number of employees, plus the one to two seats per flight, plus hotel rooms, training, etc. for the TSA to fully crew every flight (there are ~4,000 commercial aircraft in the air at any one time, in the US).

The numbers above are just quick guesses/estimates for just one terrorist sensitive target.--But give the order of magnitude to address just commercial air traffic... Does not include private jets and air craft, buses, ships (cargo, oil, LNG, etc.), trucking industry (cargo, oil, hazmat, etc.)... Or water supplies, highways, bridges, etc...

So, we are left with a choice... More cops than Nazi Germany, China or the Soviet Union, to protect us against people from outside of our borders that want to convert/kill us...

Or simply enforce our current borders and visa requirements with existing laws and resources--and get a substantial reduction in crime to boot!

Guess my choice.

-Bill


----------



## CiTY (May 7, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

Well, all pilots are not in the air all at once, since they have maximum fly hours. And not all flights need marshalls...


----------



## tygger (May 7, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

I'll have to agree with Bill that the problem starts way before anyone even gets to an airport. Our border enforcement is somewhat of a joke. For example, here in LA I know many highly qualified people from Western European countries who are having a very difficult time staying here or getting a green card even though they all have very good jobs in finance, IT, management, etc. Yet, so many people in affluent neighborhoods openly employ illegal immigrants and pay then cash and no one says anything. It doesn't make sense to make it so difficult for people who try to follow all the rules and yet turn a huge blind eye toward our neighbors from the south. Which approach do you think a determined terrorist would take? Tons of paperwork and months of waiting for an unknown outcome or just fly south of us and cross over in a van? I'm all for someone making a better life for themselves but the whole point is that our inconsistencies are making the country very vulnerable. Terrorist protection should start at the border. The airport should just be like redundant security, not the first and last checkpoint.


----------



## BB (May 7, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

[ QUOTE ]
*CiTY said:*
I say get rid of TSA and put a marshall on every flight! It might even be cheaper! 

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
*CiTY said:*
Well, all pilots are not in the air all at once, since they have maximum fly hours. And not all flights need marshalls... 

[/ QUOTE ]

Just responding you your comment about putting an air marshal on every flight.

Pick a number 100%, 10%, 1% of flights. One or two per... whatever.

In any case, pilots need to be aware and awake for their job, and they have a back up--the co-pilot (and on long overseas flights, they may even have a back up crew). They at least have jobs to keep them awake (and--truth be known, there are many instances where everyone in the cockpit have fallen asleep while in the air). In the old days (of the 1960's and 1970's), some air cargo pilots used to put an windup alarm clock in the cockpit to ensure that somebody was awake at their next reporting station--leastwise that it what one (cargo) flight engineer told me.

There is a reason they fly a maximum number of hours in a day/month.

I find flying on an airliner and waiting around an airport to be pretty mine-numbing (and I used to have my own light plane and did not fly that much on business). Can you imagine if your job just to fill a seat for 160 hours per month (if you assume a 40 hour work week) and your main job is to watch and stop a 1/2 dozen armed men, on average once per year and the chance they are on _any of_ your flight_s in a year_ is 1/50,000=0.002% chance of there being a crime and you are there?

They would have to be bored out of their minds--I am sure that contributes to the high attrition rate of air marshals.

Sounds like a typical government program to me.

-Bill

_clarify numbers_


----------



## Pellidon (May 7, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

Either that or the food. 

*Update Update Update* 

I got harassed today leaving a small regional airport. Those seem the worst. This time my flashlight, the new one from Gander Mountain was detained. It is eight inches long and C sized. Barney (not his real name and we know where this comes from) informed me that it could be used as a weapon. I informed him that it made three other flights and the decision was arbritrary. Besides I was late getting there due to a snafu at the ticket counter. Well Barney flexed his best cardboard badge intimidation and stonewalled me. I informed him if it went missing he was responsible. "it will be the airline" was his comment. My litany did not impress the little tinpot. But it sure did inflame the security agent at the ticket counter when I mentioned it to him and blew off his blame on the airline. I told him of the article I read where thousands of TSA personel were fired for stealing on video. I was hot. Then I had to submit to a thorough search the second time as I am an agitator now. I barely made my flight. It was standby for me and If I had to wait the four hours in the boarding area the TSA idiots would not have been happy with my glaring at them for the whole four hours. It was a tiny airport and they were right there in the boarding area. 

The hilarious thing was inside the plane next to the toilet was a larger than a Mag Light rechargeable that I could walk up to and brandish in about ten seconds. Too much discretion has been awarded to the security and they are not properly trained in any aspect of their function. 

Little municipal airport security agents have gotten a big head over that fake embroidered badge. In my opinion from the start they should have not been issued such an icon. It has went to some of their heads. Ex Mc Donalds parking lot security guards who have a fake badge and no oversight or accountability in my opinion. 

Sunday I have to do it all over again this time to Italy. My blood pressure is rising just thinking about it. I guess I should take up drinking.

By the way don't waste your money on those TSA happy locks. They have destroyed two just in the unlocking and locking process. Neither made a trip intact. They have un heat treated shackles so removal was just a matter of bending them.


----------



## Pellidon (May 7, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

[ QUOTE ]
*McGizmo said:*
I can see both sides of the CC argument but since every state may be different in its laws regarding CC and since flights will often take you from one state to another, not to mention another country, I can't see CC ever getting anywhere. I am refering to the carry of guns here.

However, if we have expensive tools that we need to take with us, for crying out loud, why can't we at least carry these on board? Yes, some of these tools *could* be used as weapons but so can just about anything in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing! 

Guns are not going to be allowed on board. I can accept this . A pocket folder or screwdriver, I can't accept. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I was told years ago by a flight attendant that there were two reasons tools were forbidden besides weapon potential. One was so we could not defeat the lavatory smoke detector and second was that a pair of channel locks or a wrench could be used to disassemble the door and fling it open. The outside door. Ignore the fact that once airborne it won't open until airspeed gets below a certain point. Like the Hawaii flight where the cabin blew apart while landing. It is the DB Cooper effect. He used the rear door on the older planes that would open at low airspeed. The front one would not. Now the rear doors on those relics have been fixed with a 29 cent metal tab that folds over at 20+mph and secures the door.

Pre 9-11 screwdrivers over four inches were in the same unsavory camp as knives with similar blades. Hammers, wrenches, reciprocating saws and the like I was fine with not toting onboard. I was also never keen on lugging 40+ pounds of junk around and trying to stuff it overhead. I think carryons should be limited to a lunchpail sized container or a non puffy laptop case at the largest. That is from my annoyance at seing someone trying to stuff Jumbo the 500 cubic foot suit bag in the already full overhead. I only take my laptop when I have to. I have a connected palm PDA for email.


----------



## tylerdurden (May 7, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

[ QUOTE ]
*James S said:*

And isn't is interesting that with some reliability, whenever the government or police release enough information for us to find and spot someone, we (the people) invariably keep an eye out and find them! Who found the shooter in Virginia? The police didn't have a clue but as soon as they released the info he was spotted! 

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto for Elisabeth Smart's kidnappers. Found by civilians.

Cf: http://www.keepandbeararms.com/opsd/default.asp


----------



## tygger (May 8, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

Thats a pretty ridiculous thing that happened to you Pellidon. Wonder what "Barney's" previous resume experience was? Couldn't they have at least asked you to dissasemble the light? When i finally do get my Surefire U2 i might think twice about taking it on a flight. If someone tried to confiscate it i'd probably turn into Charleton Heston and yell "from my cold dead hands!"


----------



## gadget_lover (May 8, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

Yes, the security is a joke. The 'box cutters' used by the 9/11 terrorists would not have worked unless....

1) They claimed to have a bomb.

2) They claimed "co-operate and no one will be harmed."

So, have we set into place a protocol that actually looks for bombs? No.

Have we a policy that will not allow a single hostage to paralyze a plane full of innocents? No.

Do we check planes periodically to ensure they have not been compromised. NO.

Am I still allowed to drive up to the terminal at the airport in an SUV, yes. Am I allowed to wait there. No. If I leave an SUV at the curb, what happens? They follow ME and ignore the SUV /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Do they allow Cab drivers with no clearance (and frequently foreign born) to park at the curb? Yes.

You can't buy better intertainment.

Oh. On flash lights. I've not had one confiscated, but I do travel with a padded self addressed, stamped envelope for the occasional pocket knife, screw driver and such that I forget.


Thanks for the reminder about the 2D cell emergency lights in the cabin. I noticed they are only checked every 24 months on Southwest Airlines. Not quite good enough for me. 


Daniel


----------



## JOshooter (May 8, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

I know someone who recently flew to the lower 48. He said at the security check point they found some big scissors in his bag. Ok, he just forgot they were there. No big deal. Next they claim he has C4 *residue* in there. 

What is he going to do "Take me to New York or I'll make a poof!" 

He finally got onto his flight and the lady sitting behind him said that security said she had blackpowder residue. His question now is "Why aren't they be trained properly?"


----------



## CiTY (May 8, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

Hey, didn't they "strip" search a congressman early in the TSA program and found out he had a artifical hip(TSA people never listen to reason)? I remember the secretary of transportation(Pinella or something?) had to issue a personal public appology... HaHaHa Maybe the same reasoning applies here too, the enforcers are just one level above the people they are tring to catch...


----------



## illumiGeek (May 8, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

The *biggest* problem with all of this is that all the new "safety" procedures don't do squat. They increase the hassle and inconvenience of travel by 1000%, and increase security by 1%. Anyone with an IQ larger than their shoe size can still get a weapon on board a plane with relative ease. It is an enormous waste of time, money and manpower to no end.

What is the point? To comfort the traveling public with a show of effort? Are people really that stupid and gullible? Does anyone here actually think air travel has been made "safer" by the new system?

I think the only thing that 9/11 did for air safety was alert the public that terrorists should not be allowed to take control. And by taking away tools, large flashlights and anything else that could be employed as a defensive weapon, the new procedures have made it *more difficult* for the public to protect itself from terrorist acts.

I, for one, have never felt more *usafe* in air than I do now. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (May 8, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

I will be going back to Vegas one day. I will almost certainly rent a suitable vehicle and drive.

I flew in November '01. We left on the morning American 587 (I think that was the flight and airline) the Airbus that went down in New York. I seriously thought we weren't going to fly to Vegas that day!

Even then I had to take my shoes off at both ends, get extra wanded at the gate, and generally treated like I was a freaking Terrorist. I don't need that kind of excrement!


----------



## NikolaTesla (May 9, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

I have to fly with a tool box all the time for my job. I have had to put every thing inside the box into zippered pouches because "barney" and his goons trash my stuff all the time. I don't feel on bit safer as I could carry on a ceramic knife those ingnorant goons would never find. I make sure to never carry a flashlight bigger than a 2 -123 size. You wonder why the airlines are going broke? I will drive 300 miles before I fly these days. Cut my flying in half. only 40 flights a year now. TSA is (I have no writable words).
Business people who make up 90% the airline revenue are fed up with this and every one I talk to feels the same as me- if there is a delay that makes you miss a short flight you might as well drive. (Hertz has made alot off of me lately)

NikolaTesla /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/whoopin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/twakfl.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/nana.gif


----------



## jhereg (May 9, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

[ QUOTE ]
*Kristofg said:*
[ QUOTE ]
*tylerdurden said:*If enough citizens fight back (which won't be a problem post 9/11), by the time the SWAT team is even CALLED, much less by the time they get to the plane, the whole thing will be over. How, exactly, are they going to board an in-flight plane, anyway?


[/ QUOTE ]

I meant when they have landed the plane or before take-off. If everybody is allowed a weapon, how do you recognise the difference between the terrorist and an armed civilian.

The in-flight problem will be that the armed civilian can only kill a terrorist and not try to hit fellow passengers (think of the lawsuits they'd get) but for the terrorist, every killed civilian is acceptable.

let's say a passenger gets up, threatens to use a weapon, a fellow passenger shoots him, now who is going to say that a third passenger is'nt going to shoot the second passenger because he saw number2 firing a gun and thinks number 2 is the terrorist? Or there might be a second terrorist who in turn kills the second passenger with a shot. It's not like bankrobbers with a mask. the hard point is to identify the terrorists. For all it's worth, even a stewardess with a taser stun-gun could take out a terrorist if he's standing in the aisle holding a weapon. 

[/ QUOTE ]

We hear the same arguments every time a new state tries to pass concealed carry. Blood in the streets, concealed carry holders shooting each other, dogs & cats living together, mass hysteria. All those horrible things. It just doesn't happen. I would trust the average CCW holder to back me up before I would trust the average police officer. This isn't a flame on police officers, but generally (there are exceptions) they don't shoot well. Average citizens who carry every day (Not people who get a permit & keep it for rare occasions) know they don't have backup. They know they are responsible for any consequences when they pull the trigger. Look at the percentages of good/bad shoots. Average citizens have a lower percentage than cops. I know there are many reasons for that, but your average CCW holder is not going to shoot unless they have a clear confirmed target & is in fear for their life. The fear of CCW holders spraying bullets at everyone around them is a big fear, but the statistics don't show it happening.


----------



## oldgrandpajack (May 9, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

I don't think the pilot and copilot would like to have a plane load of citizens, firing foward, towards the cabin with their favorite sidearms. I know the door is reinforced, but those walls are mighty thin. Darn terrorists probably wouldn't stand still, while we were firing at them, either. More than a few bullets would be going through the cockpit.
oldgrandpajack


----------



## McGizmo (May 9, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

In some ways, I think 9/11 made flying safer. Prior to 9/11, there were hijackings where the planes were diverted to other destinations and the pasengers were used as hostages. My gut tells me that now, if a plane *is* hijacked, either the hijackers are incapcitated or everyone on the plane dies. I suspect that passengers and crew would have the same perception. Because of this, I don't think hijacking a plane is any longer a viable solution for those groups who would want a high visibility hostage solution. It would seem that the only reason a plane would be hijacked now would be with the intent of a one way ticket for all those aboard. This might limit the actual number of occurances to those with every intent of distruction; no negotiations or ransomes.

Unfortunately, now with the heightened security and disallowed carry on items, a potential hijacker *is* given an edge over the bulk of passengers who might not have the means to thwart a hijacking. 

9/11 saw passenger aircraft used as guided missiles. I don't think this will be easy to do again but the heightened security works in favor of those who might try.

I won't put into words other posible targets that could yield as much damage as dropping a plane from the sky. My point is if the passengers of a plane have a fighting chance, a plane will no longer be available as a guided missile. If it cannot be guided, its value as a weapon is reduced considerably, IMHO.

EDIT: I don't propose that citizens be allowed to carry guns as this is too much of a controversy from city to city or state to state. We do have the right to bear arms though and I would like to think that we have the right to move about our country with the tools of our trades and hopefully some means of protecting ourselves. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif There are tools of self defense that are not projectiles in nature and couldbe used against an agressor in close proximity with no possibility of damage or harm beyond the area of encounter.

Should and incident of some type occur on our congested highways, well we then be subject to security checks every time we enter a highway on ramp?


----------



## jhereg (May 9, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

[ QUOTE ]
*oldgrandpajack said:*
I don't think the pilot and copilot would like to have a plane load of citizens, firing foward, towards the cabin with their favorite sidearms. I know the door is reinforced, but those walls are mighty thin. Darn terrorists probably wouldn't stand still, while we were firing at them, either. More than a few bullets would be going through the cockpit.
oldgrandpajack 

[/ QUOTE ]

That's pretty easy to fix. I see two solutions. The first one is to make sure the door is armored to resist any pistol rounds. This is probably a good idea anyway since the terrorists could shoot through the door if it isn't. The second solution would be to only allow people to carry "airline approved ammo." Any frangible like Glaser Blue would minimize over penetration. Realistically people worry too much about holes in airplanes. I would worry more about the other passengers than a few holes in the airplane. Your odds of striking anything important are extremely slim.

(I realize our current political climate will not allow this, but there was a time not that long ago when people regularly carried guns onto airplanes. Was it the 60s or 70s when that practice was stopped?)


----------



## McGizmo (May 9, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

Since this is all just talk, I guess it doesn't matter but on one hand, some are suggesting that guns be allowed as carry on where the reality is that we now add a couple hours to the check in procedure so that our nail clippers can be confiscated! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif If any of this talk did have any chance of being heard or heaven help us, effect the current situation, should the discussion be more *realistic* in nature? I guess it really doesn't matter. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (May 9, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

In the past couple years I have been as far as Sioux Falls, SD and Chicago, IL by road. Both times in pickup trucks.

I can't feature many possibilities of EVER getting on a plane again.

BUT! Should I ever be, and some A HOLE (s) try to take it over, it will DEFINATELTYbe over my dead body!

And I don't feel a whole lot better about the TSA as I did about the guys who did 911..........


----------



## gadget_lover (May 9, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

Going through airline security last week. The metal detector failed to go off when I forgot to empty my pockets. I mentioned this to the TSA guy. He said "Yeah, it needs to be adjusted." I don't know how many people walked through that detector or if they ever fixed it.

Last year I lost yet another pepper spray. I did not realize it was in my pocket until I was standing in line at the gate. I handed it to the gate agent before boarding the plane. The time before that, I dropped it in the trash barrel half way down the concourse.

Between ceramic knives, knitting needles, gases of various types and sky marshalls that are few and far between we don't have much security.

I loved seeing on "Airline" that the southwest employees frequently go into planes to grab a cold drink from the galley. That includes ticket agenst and baggage handlers.

My biggest rant? There is nothing to keep a squad of terrorists from walking into the local airport and taking it over. There's only about 4 armed men inside the terminal at Oakland International (OAK). The perimeter is unguarded and unprotected. There are THOUSANDS of lost or missing ID cards at OAK alone, but that's less than the 5,000 that the TSA allows to be lost, so it's OK.

I wish the TSA would hire just a security expert. Just one would be a start.

And they wonder why I'm peeved when they make me stand in line???

Daniel


----------



## jhereg (May 9, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

[ QUOTE ]
*oldgrandpajack said:*
I don't think the pilot and copilot would like to have a plane load of citizens, firing foward, towards the cabin with their favorite sidearms. I know the door is reinforced, but those walls are mighty thin. Darn terrorists probably wouldn't stand still, while we were firing at them, either. More than a few bullets would be going through the cockpit.
oldgrandpajack 

[/ QUOTE ]

The bullets would not go through the cockpit partition if it is armored to the proper standards. You need something that will stop any handgun cartridge & that is relatively easy to do. Police officers can wear it. It needs to be done anyway to stop a terrorist from shooting through the partition to down a plane. 

In reality it doesn't bother me that much that we can't carry a firearm on a plane. I understand that it would make some people way too nervous. It does really upset me when I can't carry a pocketknife or multi-tool on the plane. Without my Cybertool & wave & feel completely undressed. That is taking the disarmament of passengers way too far. They are tools, not weapons. They need to figure a way for everyone to really be safe, not just take away everything that they think could possibly be used as a weapon. Guess what, the bad guys will break the rules!


----------



## Avix (May 10, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

what is called airline security is a joke, once that plane leaves the ground it is up to those that are there. if the people who do security for banks did as poor a job as TSA does they would be out of a job so fast it isin't funny.

more government pretending to be the cure to the disease of itself.


----------



## Pellidon (May 26, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

I have learned my lesson. After asking the TSA supervisor for a complaint form in Texas where my bags were trashed last year he told me my cigarette lighter couldn't be taken on board. Seems to them only a bic lighter is ok. They wrote my name down and now today I have a letter from DOT Hazmat about my attempt to take hazardous material onboard. Only problem is they cite a date of 1-1-1970 but the airport name is correct. I did not get a recipt of the lighter or a pic as cameras are not allowed in security. Now if I call it a lighter they can call it whatever they want.

*Added:* I just got off the phone with a rep for the FAA. It seems that when you get something banned from travel you get a letter informing you about what is or is not allowed. Apparently a computer glitch sent the investigation letter to thousands of us by error. Makes sense as the letter was garbled and not signed. An apology letter is in the mail they swear. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Along with a new letter telling me what a bad boy I was FYI (or FMI).

Funny thing was the "hazardous" item was inspected several times by other TSA screeners and it passed. Only a Barney in a small airport again will inflate his/her ego that way.

And I thought I was being singled out for filing multiple complaints on their damage/loss of items. Which still runs 80% of my flights with some damage or missing parts. He aslo told me I could throw out the bogus letter. No way.


----------



## BB (Jun 1, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

Here is a very interesting article about the Air Marshals:

SECURITY: Air marshals look to lower their profile

[ QUOTE ]
The air marshal service has grown from about 30 officers at the time of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks to several thousand today, operating under a $600 million annual budget.
...
But today's airliner is a come-as-you-are environment. Even "if you go in first class, you see the whole gamut," Luckey said, from people in cut-off jeans to those in suit and tie. "I think you can go overboard with the professionalism. ... The mission dictates flexibility and some relaxed dress standards."

Many marshals interviewed - who requested anonymity because they are not allowed to talk to the media - agree.

What makes them uneasy is the prospect of being spotted by terrorists and disabled or killed before they can react.

*"This is what I foresee," said one marshal, a two-year veteran. "Two of us get on the plane and we've been under surveillance the whole time. There's a minimum of four bad guys. ... My partner goes to the bathroom and they come after me with a sharp pen, stab me in the neck or in the brain and take my weapon," he continued. "When my partner comes out, they shoot him. Then they've got 80 rounds of ammunition and two weapons."*

Adams called such a scenario "highly unlikely."
...
The passenger on American Flight 1438 told the marshals "he picked them out because of their attire and the fact that they were on board before the other passengers," an agency report on the Nov. 15, 2003, incident said. The report did not say whether the government took action against the man, although *others who have outed air marshals have been prosecuted*... 

[/ QUOTE ]

Be careful that you don't comment about the 800 lb. gorilla (i.e., stating the obvious) sitting in the airplane--you can be prosecuted for stating the obvious.

-Bill


----------



## rfdancer (Jun 1, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Israel yet. 

Several years ago terrorists started running around Israel shooting their citizens with machine guns, so the Israeli government allowed it's citizens to shoot back and within a very short time the machine gunning stopped. 
Then the terrorists starting gunning down children in school yards, so the Israelis armed their teachers so they could shoot back and within a very short time the shootings stopped. 

Hmmmmmm, I'm beginning to see a pattern here. 

Could this be because the terrorists don't like it when their targets can shoot back? Does this really effect their decision making and planning processes?

Something to think about anyway. 

I think that somewhere between 5-15% of their citizens carry and the problem for terrorists (or criminals in general) is that they don't know who is or who isn't armed - which means that they have to worry about everybody being able to shoot back. This is apparently something that the terrorists aren't comfortable with so they've gone looking for other targets. 

If terrorists want to kill then they will, but an armed citizen at least has some chance of fighting back and minimizing the amount of harm that the terrorist can do.


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jun 1, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

Richard: /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif


----------



## Avix (Jun 1, 2004)

*Re: Airline Security Rant*

RFDancer: you forgot to mention armed Israeli flight and Aircraft crews.

when was the last time anyone hijacked an Israeli flight?


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## DOCSMYNAME (Jul 7, 2004)

*Flying ,Flashlights?????*

Has anyone flown commercial with a EDC flashlight recently (withing past 30-45 days). Wondering about security a.k.a. TSA and the evil black flashlights. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin07.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/twakfl.gif VIP and S.F.ED2 esepically. Flying out of Atl. Ga. this Friday and do not want to have to leave light or lights in a locker. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif 
Thanks to everyone in advance
DOC


----------



## RayT (Jul 7, 2004)

*Re: Flying ,Flashlights?????*

Yes, I did fly recently. Went overseas. The lights (Surefire A2, Arc LSH) were in the bag that went through the X-Ray machine. I had no difficulties and no one questioned the lights. Even the overseas airports (three security checks in Frankfurt) did not question the lights.

I even started my flight in Atlanta.


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## wholeflaffer (Jul 7, 2004)

*Re: Flying ,Flashlights?????*

Can't see what trouble my ARC AAA-P might cause. I'll be putting the rest in checked baggage, come October when I head to Rome to sail the Atlantic to Barbados!


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## Lost_In_Beijing (Jul 7, 2004)

*Re: Flying ,Flashlights?????*

I had an Inova X5 and a Dorcy AAA in my backpack I didn't have any trouble getting on a domestic or an international flight with them. They did make me remove my belt because of the buckle. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon23.gif


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## JohnJ80 (Jul 7, 2004)

*Re: Flying ,Flashlights?????*

Went to Korea via US carrier (NWA) via Japan. No problem or on return. Also went on domestic trip to STL, no problem. I was carrying a Arc 4+ and a SF A2. Had both in my briefcase.

J


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## DOCSMYNAME (Jul 7, 2004)

*Re: Flying ,Flashlights?????*

Question with re. to king's crown on VIP and crenelated bezel on S.F. ED2 will security view this as a striking instrument. For example Weldon's belt buckle. 
Thanks again
DOC


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## 83Venture (Jul 8, 2004)

*Re: Flying ,Flashlights?????*

I beleive some are buying the twistie for the VIP so they can remove the kings crown and put in it their luggage when traveling. That should remove any issues about "pointy" things on aircraft.


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## sween1911 (Jul 8, 2004)

*Re: Flying ,Flashlights?????*

I flew not too long ago from Philadelphia to Memphis, had my Minimag and SF G2 in a case with extra batts and stuff in my carry-on. No problems whatsoever.

I definitely don't think you should attempt carrying crenelated bezels or TID-equipped lights through airport security. I have heard several horror stories from people regarding Atlanta's draconian security measures. The E2D's "Defender" badging might raise some eyebrows. I've heard of people utilizing bezel flip-caps to cover these things, but I think the risk of being stopped by security outweighs the defensive benefit of carrying such devices in this situation, but it's your call. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/sssh.gif


----------



## Lost_In_Beijing (Jul 8, 2004)

*Re: Flying ,Flashlights?????*

Strange thing about the buckle was that it did't bother security until I was on the way back home - transferring from an international flight that landed in Chicago to a domestic flight to Houston. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif On the way out of the country, no problem. Overseas (China), I've carried a small pocket knife with no problems.

Just be sure to wear some cheap Nikes or Reeboks when going through US security checkpoints; those get through OK. Leather dress shoes, hiking boots, most women's shoes all have to come off. 

I think most of it comes down to common sense on the part of the security person. Does a flashlight that weighs 2-3 ounces constitute a weapon? 99% of the time, no.


----------



## DOCSMYNAME (Jul 9, 2004)

*Re: Flying ,Flashlights?????*

Thanks sween, venture that was the kind of info. I was searching for.
DOC


----------



## coachbigdog (Jul 9, 2004)

*Re: Flying ,Flashlights?????*

Gone thru twice this year with my arc-ls and n-cell.Never stopped.I'd bet $ they'd stop the e2d.


----------



## Alan_L (Jul 9, 2004)

*Re: Flying ,Flashlights?????*

I like to be on the safe side and I just fly with my Mini-Mags with dat2zip sandwiches. I've had my backpack opened up and inspected and they didn't even look at the Mini-Mags. 

I know other people have given suggestions like carrying self-addressed stamped envelopes in case security will not allow a certain item, but I'd rather not have to get out of line, find a mailbox and then have to go through security again.


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## sotto (Jul 10, 2004)

*Re: Flying ,Flashlights?????*

Just flew back from Des Moines, IA through Denver to Los Angeles with my ARC LS and an E1E tube with a KL4 head on it. Placed both in my carry on bag, no questions at all. However, TSA said "some electronics" in the bag set off some kind of "explosives" sensor either in the scanner device or during the hand inspection of the contents of the carry-on! I really question that this actually happened, and rather suspect things were slow early in the morning and they were curious about all the "electronics" in my bag (a digital camera, a 4-track digital recorder, a cell-phone, the ARC LS, and the SF TW4; and decided to stir the pot a little by hand-inspecting someone's bag. Unfortunately, since they claimed some kind of explosives were sensed (there were absolutely none) they filled out a form complete with my name, address, phone, and driver's license number. I asked to inspect the form after they had filled it out, and the guy reluctantly let me look at it, but would not let go of it so I could carefully read what he had written. He also jerked it away before I had an opportunity to read the entire form. I asked specifically how the info would be used, who would have access to it, and whether this instance would single me out in the future for special screening when I fly again. He claimed it was only for the local TSA files and was required whenever a similar detection incident occurred. He also indicated that some heart medications contain chemicals that can trigger explosives sensors, however I don't take nitro tabs or anything like it. He suggested that perhaps I had set my camera down in some residue that may have triggered the sensors. TSA never said word one about any of the flashlights in the bag, though. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif


----------



## Aloft (Jul 11, 2004)

*Re: Flying ,Flashlights?????*

I work as aircrew. . . you'd think that might get me some extra consideration, but it doesn't seem to and that's not a big deal. But a few months ago, some of our pilots were starting their day in Denver when a TSA inspector claimed that the Maglite (2D cell) one was carrying could be used as a club. A "debate" then ensued, in which the pilot was victorious and common sense carried the day. I have carried a two D cell flashlight for over 20 years, so that's a good thing.

I suspect that any Surefire 2xCR123 flashlight, even the E2D, wouldn't raise an eyebrow. They're really too small to use as weapons, unless you are specifically trained to use it as such. . . and if you are, why bother, a ballpoint pen would probably be more effective and less suspicious (though not nearly as elegant or downright COOL!)!

I carried a 2D Mag, both as a pilot and an officer in the Coast Guard, specifically because it had "other uses", and I'm not just talking about clonking someone on the head, though that certainly was possible.

If anybody has trouble getting a small Surefire thru security, please make a post about it. . . things change daily about what can go thru and what can't.

BTW, I carry lots of electronics when I travel. Besides my flightbag light, I have a Surefire L1, Pelican L1, small radio, one or two MP3 players, and a load of AA and AAA batteries to keep it all running. What triggered TSA once. . .? My change holder, full of suspicious quarters, dimes, nickels and pennies!


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## Lunal_Tic (Nov 27, 2004)

*Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

Well it's that time of year. I'm about to start the holiday traveling and I'm semi dreading it. I plan on having a number of lights and parts on me both going and returning and I'm a bit worried. Some interesting theatrics when I returned last year leaves a bitter taste.

After trying to track down and read all the TSA and traveling threads, I came across Brightnorm's "CPF ID card" idea . Unfortunately the pictures were kaput so I tried to make one for myself along with a slightly different version, sans name etc., for handing out to perspective flashaholics (I even got a b-card holder for them). The reverse side has my name and CPF number with a matching barcode above it for good measure; a standard barcode reader should be able to scan it.








I know that it's the old logo but that's what I had when I made it and though it's not perfect, I'm happy with it.

For the lights that aren't in use but won't go in checked luggage I'm thinking to put them in a case like camera equipment rather than bunched in a bag. Hopefully in that configuration they won't look as threatening.

Just out of curiosity, what is the largest light you've taken on a flight? Right now I'm looking at a Surefire L6 as the biggest but I'm concerned that it looks a bit like a mace/warclub.

Any other ideas or helpful comments welcome.
-LT


----------



## Icebreak (Nov 27, 2004)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

Camera cases or Pelican cases would be a good idea. For 123 batteries I like batterystation's Pelican 1010 with the individual cut outs to insure they are cradled with no contact.

3AA LGI II is the largest I've carried onboard in a travel bag. No problems.

I've always thought bn's idea was good. I especially like your card.

- Jeff


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## Robban (Nov 27, 2004)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

Airport "security" is starting to get a bit redicolous. OMG look at that big light, that MUST be a weapon! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif A freaking SHOE can be just as deadly. What about pens? The actual bag you're carrying your stuff in? Oh oh, how about the "needles" in ear rings! And let's not forget the make up mirrors most women carry around, it could become a knife!

But I'm not bitter....


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## jbev (Nov 27, 2004)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

Largest I've carried on were my M3 and M4 right next to each other from PA all the way to Peru S.A. They were more concerned with my boots since the X-rays could not pass through their soles. I got the "random" bag search twice after the normal security check points, but they never said anything about my light collection. I kinda figured they would have called the M4 a "club" shapped object, but both times they just put it on the exam table and kept digging through my bag. Since then I've stopped worring when I travel... at least about lights.

The exception might be the newer style, more aggressive looking bezels. They don't look quite so innocent.


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## Kiessling (Nov 27, 2004)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

I'd be "in" for the official CPF membership card any day !
If one brave man or woman would take the time to actually make them ... each individually for each member /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif ... what a tremedous amount of work!
bernhard


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## Sub_Umbra (Nov 27, 2004)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

[ QUOTE ]
*Robban said:*
...But I'm not bitter.... 

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL


----------



## PhantomZ (Nov 27, 2004)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

maybe a small donation to whoever makes the card would be a good idea. how about including your picture instead of a barcode cause that would be alot more work to program?


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## tylerdurden (Nov 27, 2004)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

I don't understand the idea behind the "ID" card. Can I carry scissors and knives on a plane if I have a "sharppointythingfanatic.com" ID card? I mean, either an item (in this case, a flashlight) is permitted or it isn't. What difference does a card that says I'm an obsessive weirdo make? If any TSA drone allows something they normally wouldn't have because of this unofficial document, they should probably be fired.


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## Kiessling (Nov 27, 2004)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

Hey Tyler ... a CPF "ID" would be cool, that's it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
I really hope it won't decide on whether we are allowed to take our lights on board a plane or not, totally agreed.
bernhard


----------



## tylerdurden (Nov 27, 2004)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

Sure. But it was brought up here, and IIRC it was orignially conceived as a document to show to airport security as some sort of "pass" for your flashlights.


----------



## Kiessling (Nov 27, 2004)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

*ahem* ... you're right.
Anyway ... this would need the approval of the Commander-in-Chief first ...
bernhard


----------



## Robban (Nov 27, 2004)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

No need to have one man make them individually 

Ok so I was bored, sue me! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

http://cpf.theintarweb.net/cpf_id/


----------



## kongfuchicken (Nov 27, 2004)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

A quick faq a la "yes, this is a flashlight, no it can't kill anyone..." with a schematics of the lights would do a better job at calming suspiscious security agents.
Although... come to think of it, the guy would probably go "you seem to be justifying yourself too much!" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif


----------



## jbev (Nov 27, 2004)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

You have entirely too much free time on your hands. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jpshakehead.gif


----------



## Lunal_Tic (Nov 27, 2004)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

Icebreak,
Thanks for the thumbs up on the design. I just wanted to make something that looked nice and might have a little function. Besides, it was fun to make. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

PhantomZ, 
I thought about putting a mug shot on it but decided against it just from a design stand point, besides I'm not that pretty. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif Even if you don't have the equipment at home there are always Kinkos (or equivalent) all over the place that could make the hard copy then laminate.

Hi Tyler,
Funny you should mention "sharppointythingfanatic.com". I've been a member for about a year. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif Actually the idea is something akin to letting people know that you are a member of a group. Groups of like minded folk tend show that you're not alone in your oddness. Nobody wants to think that you are odd or out of place, that's what causes the problem; the fear of the unknown IMHO. It would be like someone thinking you are nicer to your pet because you are a member of PETA. Any edge is an advantage. If they lighten up, so to speak, when I show the card and give them a business card to find out more then so be it.

Kiesling,
You are welcome to the graphic if you'd like it. I can send you a version without name info and you could just insert what you'd like. I printed mine on a color laser and it came out fine though lamination keeps the toner on the card better over time. It actually doesn't show up here as well as it prints especially the white trace around the tag line.

Robban,
That's slick. You guys type way too fast for me.

Thanks for all the comments.
-LT


----------



## brightnorm (Nov 28, 2004)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

[ QUOTE ]
*tylerdurden said:*
I don't understand the idea behind the "ID" card. Can I carry scissors and knives on a plane if I have a "sharppointythingfanatic.com" ID card? I mean, either an item (in this case, a flashlight) is permitted or it isn't. What difference does a card that says I'm an obsessive weirdo make? If any TSA drone allows something they normally wouldn't have because of this unofficial document, they should probably be fired. 

[/ QUOTE ]

The card has at least smoothed the way and provided an instant "Ah, I see" type of response when I have carried many lights on board. I wouldn't deliberately travel with any forbidden objects.

The only problem with CPF "ID cards" might be if a bunch of us made up our own individual cards, coincidentally used the same airport and a guard with a good memory noticed a discrepancy and got suspicious.

Brightnorm


----------



## PeteBroccolo (Nov 28, 2004)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

I cannot see how a "CPF ID card" is going to carry any weight with airport, or other, security as far as allowing anyone to go anywhere, or do, or carry, anything that other "clients" would not otherwise be allowed to do.

However, being able to pass out an approved CPF card might be kind of neat to do when we are talking to non-flashaholics.

Maybe She-Who-Is-In-Charge (Oh, Sasha dear, pray tell, are you about?) could bestow her imprimateur on a design that we could all down-load to a business-card-print program to print out at home on standard micro-perforated card stock.


----------



## brightnorm (Nov 28, 2004)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

[ QUOTE ]
*PeteBroccolo said:*
I cannot see how a "CPF ID card" is going to carry any weight with airport, or other, security as far as allowing anyone to go anywhere, or do, or carry, anything that other "clients" would not otherwise be allowed to do...

[/ QUOTE ]

Pete,

Absolutely, but it has immediately quieted curiosity on several occasions; most recently a flight to Canada and also returning to NYC from Miami. I often fly with *many* lights.

Brightnrom


----------



## Topper (Nov 28, 2004)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

Still, sounds like fun.
Topper /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


----------



## Lunal_Tic (Nov 28, 2004)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

Hi brightnorm,

Thanks for the original inspiration and chiming in here. I'll be on flights starting the 19th so I'll have a chance to field test their usefulness soon. I particularly want to have my "generic" cards to give to the curious at Christmas too. Nobody ever remembers the CPF address correctly when I just tell them. The card will make that easier.

-LT


----------



## Lux Luthor (Nov 28, 2004)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

[ QUOTE ]
*Robban said:*
Airport "security" is starting to get a bit redicolous. OMG look at that big light, that MUST be a weapon! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif...

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately, it isn't limited to just airport security. I can personally vouch for the fact that you don't even need to be getting on an airplane, or even inside an airport!

A few weeks ago I was searched and detained for almost an hour near Bradley airport in CT. I parked my car near where the planes land (in a legal parking lot where people watch them land), and then decided to take a walk on some side streets (I assume that's also legal, since they're just normal city streets with no signs indicating anything otherwise). I had my usual dual micras (one with booster head), and 2 photon freedoms on my keychain. Some stupid neighbor decided I looked suspicious and called the cops.

First one Windsor cop shows up and searches me. Then, as I'm spread eagle up against the squad car with my micras on the hood, another couple cop cars show up. They start searching a nearby wooded area looking for a missile or something. Then they claim that maybe I was trying to shine the micra with booster head at landing planes. These guys are all carrying mag 3Ds, so I offer to compare throw with theirs, and they blow it away. Then they shut up about that. Next they go inspect my car, which was locked, but they didn't ask me to open it. Then I have to wait for another 30 minutes (arguing with them almost the whole time about what I'm doing there with these lights), but when the state police show up, they turn me over to him since apparantly the airport is the state police's jurisdication.

The cop that searched me keeps telling the state cop that he ought to take me in for questioning. I thought I was going to get arrested or something, all for the crime of walking down the street with a couple of flashlights! Fortunately, this last cop was cool, and after asking me whether I was feeling suicidal, he finally let me go.

I was so pissed off about all this, that I thought about contacting the ACLU and seeing if I could sue over it. But since I'm not particularly fond of that group either, I decided to let the whole thing go. I still wonder if I made the right decision.


----------



## KevinL (Nov 28, 2004)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

[ QUOTE ]
*PeteBroccolo said:*
I cannot see how a "CPF ID card" is going to carry any weight with airport, or other, security as far as allowing anyone to go anywhere, or do, or carry, anything that other "clients" would not otherwise be allowed to do.


[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't, actually. It doesn't change a ban on certain types of equipment. What it does is forestall questions, it makes things look 'legit', and it offers a reason to a very irrational world. More importantly, it may help quiet the doubts in THEIR own minds before they become panicky and start saying "Should I turn this guy in because I don't, what's my boss going to say?" 

What I can imagine is that it would answer the question "Why so many lights?" It makes it easier to take out the card and explain "I'm a collector and flying". It makes it 'look' more legit (though it may not necessarily be). Flashlights are not banned per se, but some (irrationally) regard them as things that they shouldn't be.

Sadly, not everybody we meet every day is as reasonable and understanding as you and the other CPF LEOs. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif


----------



## shifty646 (Nov 28, 2004)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

[ QUOTE ]
*Lux Luthor said:*
[ QUOTE ]
*Robban said:*
Airport "security" is starting to get a bit redicolous. OMG look at that big light, that MUST be a weapon! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif...

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately, it isn't limited to just airport security. I can personally vouch for the fact that you don't even need to be getting on an airplane, or even inside an airport!

A few weeks ago I was searched and detained for almost an hour near Bradley airport in CT. I parked my car near where the planes land (in a legal parking lot where people watch them land), and then decided to take a walk on some side streets (I assume that's also legal, since they're just normal city streets with no signs indicating anything otherwise). I had my usual dual micras (one with booster head), and 2 photon freedoms on my keychain. Some stupid neighbor decided I looked suspicious and called the cops.

First one Windsor cop shows up and searches me. Then, as I'm spread eagle up against the squad car with my micras on the hood, another couple cop cars show up. They start searching a nearby wooded area looking for a missile or something. Then they claim that maybe I was trying to shine the micra with booster head at landing planes. These guys are all carrying mag 3Ds, so I offer to compare throw with theirs, and they blow it away. Then they shut up about that. Next they go inspect my car, which was locked, but they didn't ask me to open it. Then I have to wait for another 30 minutes (arguing with them almost the whole time about what I'm doing there with these lights), but when the state police show up, they turn me over to him since apparantly the airport is the state police's jurisdication.

The cop that searched me keeps telling the state cop that he ought to take me in for questioning. I thought I was going to get arrested or something, all for the crime of walking down the street with a couple of flashlights! Fortunately, this last cop was cool, and after asking me whether I was feeling suicidal, he finally let me go.

I was so pissed off about all this, that I thought about contacting the ACLU and seeing if I could sue over it. But since I'm not particularly fond of that group either, I decided to let the whole thing go. I still wonder if I made the right decision. 

[/ QUOTE ]

HOLY MOLY!!
That is a complete violation of your civil rights!
I don't know if there are some special laws in the US about this stuff. But in Canada, there are clear cut laws. If you are not under arrest, you have the right to refuse being searched, and they cannot search you without your consent. If they have no warrant, they cannot search your car/house unless it is involved in the offence you have been arrested for.
Possession and use of flashlights is not against any laws. I would at least file a complaint, if not sue.


----------



## jbroker83 (Nov 28, 2004)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

A recent article I stumbled upon had a great bit of advice when flying with flashlights, and I plan on using the advice soon when I fly to Orlando. The author is a weapons instructor and carries numerous lights on his person, and also in his carry on. I'm assuming most of the forum members carry at least an EDC and a backup. Whenever he is asked why he has flashlights, he simply, but seriously, responds "To see in the dark." He says that 90% of the time, it quickly shuts up the TSA agents. If they push the arguement further, as in, "well, sir, it won't be dark during this flight" he respond....."look, I carry flashlights for the same reason that I sit close to the exit." Since TSA agents are heavily discouraged from talking to passengers about the safety of the actual flight, they will not press on, at least that's been his experience. I am going to say something like this: 
Have you ever seen the movie "Castaway?" or seen the TV show "lost"????? In both situations, they would've done much better having some sort of flashlight (s), and I'm a prepared person. Though statistically the chances of a plane crashing are 1 in 1.4 million, I'm the one person who plans for the worst. I doubt any TSA agents would really argue with that. I plan on carrying my SF L4 on me, and having a Princeton Tec Rage with fresh AAA's in my carry on. I know that this doesn't represent the most lighting power, but I'm comfortable with that amount of light.


----------



## Lunal_Tic (Nov 28, 2004)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

KevinL,

You've got it dead on. Fear of the unknown, even perceived unknown is the problem. If the guy "thinks" he understands then it's a plus. That's all I'm looking for is a bit of understanding. I was going to say common sense but then I'd be asking a bit much.

-LT


----------



## brightnorm (Nov 29, 2004)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

Kevin,

You summed up my rationale perfectly. It would be funny if the problem eventually became how to explain all the different CPF ID cards.

I also carry dealer pages for all the lights I fly with. In the case of mods or creations like Don's I create a legitimate-looking page using photos and text.

I wish SF hadn't publicised the E2D Defender as a weapon because some of my PR and Aleph heads are mounted on E2Ds and the E2D name is clearly visible. 

BN


----------



## brightnorm (Nov 29, 2004)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

[ QUOTE ]
*Lunal_Tic said:*
...The reverse side has my name and CPF number with a matching barcode above it for good measure; a standard barcode reader should be able to scan it...


[/ QUOTE ]

LT,

Can you explain how that works, how you did it and what spcial equipment is needed? 

Thanks,
BN


----------



## Lunal_Tic (Nov 29, 2004)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

Hi brightnorm,

Actually the multiple CPF card styles wouldn't be a problem IMHO. Visa and MasterCard have lots of styles out there so I figure variations could be explained away easily. The other thing is that it would require the same security folk seeing all the cards from members all over the place; unlikely I think. At least for the time being I think there are what three styles.

As for the barcode it's pretty easy. Check here for the fonts.

I used the 3 of 9 version. He has one that includes all ASCII but I'm not certain all readers could handle that so I just used the normal one and put my name and CPF# under the barcode in all caps.

Hope this helps,
LT


----------



## gadget_lover (Nov 29, 2004)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

Yeah the cops get pretty touchy around airports. At Oakland International (near San Francisco) they chase you off wherever you park, even in areas that are unmarked and not airport property. I used to enjoy sitting and watching the planes.

In the US, I'm pretty sure you can be stopped for no real reason and questioned. They can't arrest you nor take you to the police station without some reason. They can't search you without probable cause, but I don't know of any law that says they have to explain what that is before you are searched. I've seen where the officer asks "Would you mind?" before looking around, getting consent in an off-hand way. 

General rule; keep it friendly and keep it polite. It's finished quicker that way.

Daniel


----------



## tadbik (Nov 29, 2004)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

Maybe this would be a more useful card to carry (or similar! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif)


----------



## markdi (Nov 29, 2004)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

what is a cpf id card

where do I get one ?


----------



## Lightbringer (Nov 29, 2004)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

I'm pretty sure you must give your consent to have a vehicle searched. Probable cause is pretty broad, but they must be able to defend it at a hearing. I know that if a K-9 unit is nearby...the dog can be used to establish probable cause if it detects something....now whether you can trust the dog actually detected something or the cop can give it a command to bark and pretend...who knows


----------



## Lunal_Tic (Nov 29, 2004)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

tadbik,
I can't see your picture. What is it?

markdi,
You might want to check out the first post in this tread.

-LT


----------



## sunspot (Nov 29, 2004)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

[ QUOTE ]
*jbroker83 said:*
A recent article I stumbled upon had a great bit of advice when flying with flashlights, and I plan on using the advice soon when I fly to Orlando.

[/ QUOTE ]
Who is the author, if you please?


----------



## Minjin (Nov 29, 2004)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

[ QUOTE ]
*Lightbringer said:*
I'm pretty sure you must give your consent to have a vehicle searched. Probable cause is pretty broad, but they must be able to defend it at a hearing. I know that if a K-9 unit is nearby...the dog can be used to establish probable cause if it detects something....now whether you can trust the dog actually detected something or the cop can give it a command to bark and pretend...who knows 

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not true in the slightest. If they were in the right, they wouldn't ask. You guys are voluntarily giving up your rights and thats making it harder for the people who like to keep them. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif

Mark


----------



## MrBenchmark (Nov 29, 2004)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

[ QUOTE ]
*Lux Luthor said:*

Unfortunately, it isn't limited to just airport security. I can personally vouch for the fact that you don't even need to be getting on an airplane, or even inside an airport!

A few weeks ago I was searched and detained for almost an hour near Bradley airport in CT. I parked my car near where the planes land (in a legal parking lot where people watch them land), and then decided to take a walk on some side streets (I assume that's also legal, since they're just normal city streets with no signs indicating anything otherwise). I had my usual dual micras (one with booster head), and 2 photon freedoms on my keychain. Some stupid neighbor decided I looked suspicious and called the cops.



[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, sorry to hear that this happened to you - what a drag!

It's not just flashlights. If you do anything suspicious looking to anyone around an airport, don't be surprised when the police, or even the FBI shows up. A geocacher was detained a few weeks back at LAX (I think that's where it was), for looking for a geocache that was placed on the periphery of airport property. There was a barricade, so you couldn't drive to it, but there were public sidewalks, so you could easily walk or jog in the area. However, someone saw the guy standing there with a GPS receiver, and decided he looked like a possible terrorist. They called the police, and ultimately the FBI showed up to question the guy. Their rationale for taking him in was that a foreign person had been recently spotted near the airport with a GPSr, and they'd been warned about a terrorst threat. Turns out, though, that the "foreign person" wasn't a terrorst either, but just someone who liked to spot airplanes, and who happened to carry a GPS. 

I would not be surprised if a camera at the same location at the airport would get you a similar visit from the police.


----------



## brightnorm (Nov 29, 2004)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

Thanks LT

BN


----------



## gadget_lover (Nov 29, 2004)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

[ QUOTE ]
*Lightbringer said:*
I'm pretty sure you must give your consent to have a vehicle searched. Probable cause is pretty broad, but they must be able to defend it at a hearing. I know that if a K-9 unit is nearby...the dog can be used to establish probable cause if it detects something....now whether you can trust the dog actually detected something or the cop can give it a command to bark and pretend...who knows 

[/ QUOTE ]

There's a big difference between what has to hold water at a hearing (probable cause, warrants etc all) and what only has to work during the stop. Some times the officer just wants to impress upon you the idea that you should not be there. In that case, a 30 minute roadside interrogation will sometimes do the job.

If the officer asks you if you mind opening the trunk, you can politely say no thanks. If he orders you to open it or opens it himself, he needs probable cause or a warrant.

If the officer is not going to arrest you, it does not matter to him if he's following proper procedure. 

This is just my belief, and I could be wrong.

Daniel


----------



## hojobones (Nov 29, 2004)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

I havnt experienced any probelms with airport security the several times I have flown this year. I always carry an L4 on me, and soon it will be replaced with my LH. In my carry on I have my M6, spares carrier, an eternalight xray, and one or two extras depending on the mood. Security has not bothered me except once, and that one time they just asked me to turn them on. My dad hasnt had any problems even with his E2E with TID (although I dont think he should even try).


----------



## jbroker83 (Nov 30, 2004)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

The author of the article is Massad Ayoob. He's a pretty well known handgun instructor and carries surefires, among other things. The article is titled "travel safe" and has a sub-section about the "power of light"
I found the article in a Guns and Ammo Combat Tactics magazine presented byt SureFire.


----------



## Lunal_Tic (Dec 1, 2004)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

Actually IIRC all flight crew are required to have a flashlight that has a constant on feature (rather than just momentary). I also believe that the pilots are required to have 2xD cell or equivalents with them. Perhaps some of our pilots could comment on this.

I figure another good line to give when they ask you about why you have lights is to respond "for the same reasons the flight crew are required by the FAA to have them". /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/evilgrin07.gif

-LT


----------



## sunspot (Dec 1, 2004)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

Thanks jbroker83. I have read quite a bit of Mas's work. I wonder if he is a member here.


----------



## brightnorm (Dec 1, 2004)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

[ QUOTE ]
*Lunal_Tic said:*
Hi brightnorm,

Thanks for the original inspiration and chiming in here. I'll be on flights starting the 19th so I'll have a chance to field test their usefulness soon. I particularly want to have my "generic" cards to give to the curious at Christmas too. Nobody ever remembers the CPF address correctly when I just tell them. The card will make that easier.

-LT 

[/ QUOTE ]

I know you know this but I just want to say to any other "card creators": that you shouldn't show the card unless questions or suspicions are raised about your lights.

As backup I always carry dealer pages (real or constructed) for all the lights I have with me. For production lights Brightguy's pages are among the best sources.

Brightnorm


----------



## brightnorm (Dec 1, 2004)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

deleted (double post)


----------



## Lunal_Tic (Feb 6, 2005)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

Just thought I'd check back in to let everyone know I wasn't detained coming back with all my lights. Going wasn't really a problem it was returning that I worried about.

In addition to the lights I carried with me going I bought a number of new lights and batteries in the US. I was really concerned with some of them "growing legs" if I put them in to checked baggage so I put nearly all in my carry-on.

Not only did I not have to take off my shoes, nobody even flinched over the bag of lights and batteries nor anything else for that matter. Mind you I don't ever "beep" anymore and likely won't unless they ramp up the scan to catch my brass shoe eyelets.

I think that, not beeping, and overwhelming them with lights was the key. When they looked at my bags in the machine there was practically nothing but lights and batteries. It wasn't like I was trying to hide anything at all in their eyes.

Mind you these were not all 2AA plastic lights either. The biggest was a Wolf-Eyes Dragon-I which is slightly longer and considerably fatter than a 2D Mag. There were also 2 with "teeth"; E2D headed lights. Plus there were about 4-5 dozen batteries, a few pelican cases and Surefire spares carriers. 

As for the CPF card, it was the flight crew that was interested in lights so I passed out a couple of the generic ones with the web address. The funniest comment, besides the girl that said wow that's nice what is it about $20 about an L4, was another girl that said she didn't like clickies because they came on by themselves and didn't like twisties because they unscrew themselves. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif What kind of switch does that leave exactly (in normal production lights)?

Anyway that's the way it was . . .

-LT


----------



## UVvis (Feb 6, 2005)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

Just to chime in,

I travelling back to the US from New Zealand. As those flights require everyone to meet US airline security, they search everyone differently than normal NZ only flights. In my laptop case I also had a pack of batteries and several surefire lights. After the x-ray they pulled me aside. The guy searching my stuff pulled out my C3 and was inspecting it. He couldn't get it to turn on as it was locked out. He was pointing it at his face when he turned the cap and it came on, complete with P91 bulb and all. 

I was laughing really hard as he almost dropped it. First time I saw an accidental auto blinding in effect. The security guy stopped searching my stuff right after that...


----------



## Lunal_Tic (Feb 6, 2005)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

He probably couldn't see to continue. Good thing he didn't drop it while on. It would have been an expensive laugh.

-LT


----------



## Pydpiper (Feb 6, 2005)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

Deleted, spoke out of context.


----------



## James S (Feb 6, 2005)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

I have yet to be given any trouble about flying with my lights. Interestingly enough it is my electric razor that seems to cause them the most problems. They just never seem to recognize it when going through the x-ray machine. And always want to see it for real. Which is fine by me, they open the case look at it and say "oh, thats what it is" and smile and tell me thank you and I'm very polite to them and everybody goes on their way /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Funny story when flying recently to Duke for a basketball game with my father-in-law. While there we got some presents for the kids, one of which was a plastic baseball bat with "Duke" printed on it as my daughter is really into baseball at the moment. (she's just 4 so a big plastic bat is a big plus /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif ) when I got to the airport I realized that I was carrying a baseball bat, one of the things specifically not allowed on a plane. But of course it was a hollow plastic one. so when going through security the lady checking ID's took it upon herself to tell us that it was a prescribed item and that they weren't going to let us through with it. I demonstrated it's deadliness by hitting myself over the head with it, making a hollow thumping sound /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif She was not impressed and after some arguing she admitted "it's not my place to decide... but..." and I used that as my out, "when we get to the person who's job it is to decide, we'll ask them" and we walked on. The X-Ray guys just laughed and put it right through, no problem at all.

Oh, and on the new MD-88's that Delta is flying they use a luxeon or other high power LED for the reading light! It's really much cooler than the old halogen bulbs that burn out all the time. The color is unmistakable as well as the border of the beam where the border gets sort of brown before fading away. The optics that they use, some kind of fresnel type plastic piece, kept me from being able to actually see the led in use, but the color of it on, and off when I shined my ArcLS backwards up in to the fixture trying to see the LED I could see the phosphor color magnified in the lense, it's definitely an LED. nice plane. Very noisy at speed though.

EDIT: I'll just preempt any wise guys by adding the specifics that the hollow thumping sound mentioned above was from the bat and not from my head /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif


----------



## wasBlinded (Feb 6, 2005)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

Items of particular densities pique the interest of carry-on xray machines. In particular, don't carry jars of peanut butter with you if you don't want to be searched - it looks like plastic explosive to the scanner. Probably for the same reason, my wife's make-up bag often provokes interest. Hmmm. Wonder what that's all about? I've never caught her using putty on her face...


----------



## seattlite (Feb 6, 2005)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

Anyone have any problems carrying on any of the Surefire lights with crenellated bezels? Specifically the E2D?


----------



## Lunal_Tic (Feb 6, 2005)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

seattlite,

As mentioned in my post on page 5, I had 2 lights with E2D bezels. They were on VG 2xCR123 bodies. No problems but that was in a bag full of lights.

-LT


----------



## Lunal_Tic (Feb 7, 2005)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

I just did a quick count of the lights and batteries, IIRC there were 21. The largest were the Dragon-I, ElektroLumens TSP, Angleluxes and L6. There were about 65xCR123s and 30xAAs.

-LT


----------



## hikari (Feb 8, 2005)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

As a working flight attendant, I go through TSA checkpoints about as much as anybody. Since acquiring it sometime around mid-'04, I have always carried an E2O (my EDC since then) on my person, dropping it in the tray to be x-rayed when I go through security. I was a little hesitant to try taking an E2D with me because of the "teeth." After finally picking one up a few months ago, I stuck it in my bag as a b/u lite. Completely forgot I had it with me (it sits in a Pelican 1030 case with cutouts for a spare MN03, a KL1 head and 2-4 spare batts). Apparently, it's no biggie, since I have never been stopped or even asked about it. I also carry (as another b/u), an E1E clipped inside my carry-on bag. I also carry a "stylus" led pen and a coupla other cheap led lights cached here and there in my stuff. I also carry a knife or two too--but that's another story...I didn't say that! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

I have carried an Inova x5 in the past, but the switch (on both old and newer models) stinks. It's very unreliable for line use--only good for "at home under sterile conditions" use AFAIC. Before that, I carried an old 6P (with the round body/bezel). I really love the E2O--in fact, I like the E series and all the variations possible with it. I have found the reliability of the SF and its derivatives to be tops and probably won't be changing over some time (unless of course, something more splashy and expensive(ahem) comes along...


----------



## Lunal_Tic (Feb 8, 2005)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

hikari,

I guess we've been lucky. I've read about people having lights as small as the ARC AAA taken because they could be used as a "kubotan". Also read a bit about batteries taken as well. One person was also told that his ARC LS was bright and might blind someone so next time put it in checked baggage.

I'm surprised you take the chance with the edged implements since you fly all the time. I did have an attendant tell me once she had to chew through a shrink wrapped case of cokes because there wasn't anything else to use particularly since they'd taken something like a half a dozen nail clippers off her. By the way those are listed as OK for carry on if you look at the TSA site's PDF of restricted items.

-LT


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Feb 8, 2005)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

I've said it before and now reitterate it...

If I can't DRIVE there, I ain't GOING there!!!

Good luck to all you who take your chances with the TSA Thugs!!!


----------



## Lunal_Tic (Feb 8, 2005)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

Playboy Joe Shmoe,

LOL, Find me a car that'll get me from the US to Japan and I'll think about it.

Nothing will change till the Sheeples' voices are heard and that may be awhile. Meanwhile our rights are slowly whittled away.

-LT


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Feb 8, 2005)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

I hear ya Tic.

I just ain't the kind of guy to be going across the big lake!

I'll either drive a car to Vegas or an RV around the country... got no need to go farther.

In 11/01 (last time I flew) I had no carry on, was in a polo and slacks, took everything out of my pockets, and still had to take my shoes off, be wanded by both inspectors and flight crew, and patted down.

And I don't look one tiny bit like the people that did 9-11.


----------



## hikari (Feb 8, 2005)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

Hi Lunal Yic,

As for carrying anything with an edge...I would never consider doing such a thing! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif You can't believe how much the restrictions on carrying ANY kind of edged tool as well as "regular" tools (e.g. pliers, screwdrivers, etc.) have hamstrung the working crews inflight. As I'm sure most of the people on the CPF can figure, it ain't difficult to fabricate some kind of improvised weapon--but it's a royal PITA when you gotta tighten a 5/16 hex screw holding a coffee maker control panel using your fingernails--or snug up a "tri-wing" head screw holding the valance panel to the sidewalls (which just fell off on a pax).

Frankly, IMO the security regulations and contortions that we go through at the airports nowadays are simply lip service by the politicians. It's been implemented simply to placate a fearful population (as in constituency). The fact of the matter is that if someone is determined, they will figure out a way to carry on/place onboard/create onboard a weapon with which to wreak havoc during the flight. Ultimately, there is no possible way to completely ensure everyone's safety.

Now, as for the TSA inspectors themselves...The vast majority of them (in my experience and observation), are poorly trained, not very observant, and not totally conscientious, (especially the latter). The inconsistency station to station (airport to airport), and in fact, from checkpoint to checkpoint within any given airport, is glaring. One screener will not even blink at the assorted junk I carry with me, another will virtually dump my bag out on the counter to check it all out. So much for federal guidelines. BTW, as for the shoes--it goes by the THICKNESS OF THE SOLES. If the soles are approx. .25" or thicker, they will ask that you remove them to be screened--that's supposedly so that they can detect any improvised explosive devices hidden therein. also, if your shoes have metal shanks in them for support, you gotta take em off.

I fear that we've created a monster with this airport security stuff, but I doubt that truly proper action will ever be taken due to our (Americans') fear of death (and our unreasonable expectation that we can prevent ALL unnatural or untimely deaths).

Sorry to sound like a soapbox orator--this one touched a nerve! The bottom line is that I still carry all sorts of flashlights and parts/accessories for them--and have never had a hassle with them (kind of surprising, actually). When you're going through security, don't act belligerent--be cooperative. I don't think they mind questions, but don't be defensive or abrasive. If they ask, give a reasonable, [email protected] explanation. Push come to shove, you can always ask the TSA inspector to call a supervisor.


----------



## Wits' End (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

Just a question on the link to create an ID card. I put in Wits' End and got Wits///' End. I have had problems w/ the ' before, any suggestions?
Other than drop it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


----------



## RadarGreg (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

God forbid, a CPFer goes nuts on a flight and begins taking out the flight attendants and other passengers with a MiniMag(heavily modded, of course). When the air marshals finish pumping the guy, or gal, full of 9mm rounds and they find his CandlePower Forum membership card in his wallet (along with the SharpPointyThingFanatic.com membership card), don't you think this is going to cause some grief for the rest of the members, as well as the moderators? I don't think Sasha would like her front door kicked it at midnight by the SWAT ninjas looking for membership details on tylerdurden, brightnorm, or RadarGreg? (ok, she might give up my records to them)

I think the idea of a membership card is kinda neat, especially for the Geek Factor, but it isn't going to do squat for helping you get your favorite lightsaber on a flight, or out of the holding room at the airport. I think a better way of showing our affiliation with those in the world who also share our compulsive love of light (or disturbing fear of the dark) would be a lapel pin or other low-key device. Put me down for one if we get a group buy going.

RadarGreg


----------



## Lunal_Tic (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

hikari,

I still don't get why flight crew can't have the tools needed for the job. There are a number of non restricted items that are as potentially dangerous as a screwdriver. That doesn't even go to the fact that there is no consistency between what is and isn't allowed even on the TSA website as mentioned.

I figure we'll all be doped, striped and strapped into our seats for flights in the future; can't be too dangerous naked and asleep.

As for the shoes, that's interesting. Mine were at least that on the sole and taller at the heel but the girl in front that had to take hers off were pretty thin. It's still got a sign at screening that says it's optional to take them off.

It's a hot button with me too and I wish it was for more folk then maybe it'd be straightened out. I can always dream I guess.


Wits' End,

I tried ` which is under the ~ on my keyboard and it came out alright. You might try that. If that doesn't help and you're interested in the style on the one I made I can send you a blank one, or filled out even, via email.


RadarGreg,

I can just see someone going more than about 10 seconds with a bludgeon before the passengers and crew put them down. The air marshal will probably still be getting out of their seat by the time it's done assuming that it happens close enough for them to even hear its first racket.

As for the card, I gave out more of the generic one since there were a number of people interested in lights and I hate spelling out the website. The member's card is more an affiliation card like a AK&T, NRA, or SAG. It may not help with my lightsabre but then again, played right, it might. 

On a similar thought, when I come through customs in Japan with all my gear they always are over interested until I had them my card that says "photographer" on it. Then they usually go "oh, photographer" and wave me through. You'd be surprised how "labels" make acceptance easier for many people. If you don't know what something is you're more likely to be careful/defensive/inquisitive. However as always YMMV.

-LT


----------



## ob1 (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

i vote for cpf cards! my gf already knows im a dork /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/buttrock.gif


----------



## jercdevil (Feb 9, 2005)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

No problem here I carry a Surefire A2 and a E2D. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif [image]




[/image]


----------



## Wits' End (Feb 10, 2005)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

[ QUOTE ]
*Lunal_Tic said:*
Wits' End,
I tried ` which is under the ~ on my keyboard and it came out alright. You might try that. -LT 

[/ QUOTE ]
I used the ' under the ". The ` under the ~ worked. Thanks, if I used all those symbols together I'd be /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rant.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


----------



## Robban (Feb 10, 2005)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

[ QUOTE ]
*Wits' End said:*
Just a question on the link to create an ID card. I put in Wits' End and got Wits///' End. I have had problems w/ the ' before, any suggestions?
Other than drop it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif 

[/ QUOTE ]
The problem is that I created that page much too quickly (and lazely... hehe) and didn't even bother to unescape special characters before putting them in the image. Fixed now though.

You see what happens is that PHP protects itself from bad user input by "escaping" bad characters such as ' and \ for example. These can be used to screw up things like SQL strings that are created from user input and such. Of course it's up to the programmer to see to it that user input is safe but the developers of PHP have added this little extra security just in case.


----------



## brightnorm (Feb 10, 2005)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

[ QUOTE ]
*RadarGreg said:*
...I think the idea of a membership card is kinda neat, especially for the Geek Factor, but it isn't going to do squat for helping you get your favorite lightsaber on a flight, or out of the holding room at the airport... 

[/ QUOTE ]
My experience has been just the opposite



[ QUOTE ]
*Lunal-tic said:*
...when I come through customs in Japan with all my gear they always are over interested until I had them my card that says "photographer" on it. Then they usually go "oh, photographer" and wave me through. You'd be surprised how "labels" make acceptance easier for many people. If you don't know what something is you're more likely to be careful/defensive/inquisitive...

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, that's the idea.

Brightnorm


----------



## rwolff (Feb 12, 2005)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

[ QUOTE ]

Just out of curiosity, what is the largest light you've taken on a flight?


[/ QUOTE ]

Can anyone beat a 5D flashlight (as pax on a commercial flight)? Of course, this was back in 1989, and it was a plastic-bodied Radio Shack cheapie (i.e. useless as a weapon).

BTW, is the Ayoob article about travelling with flashlights available online anywhere?


----------



## GCalifornianus (Feb 12, 2005)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

I carried a 6-D Mag on several flights; the screeners usually (not always) asked to see it, then waved me through. My Mag carrying days ended when, in Kansas City one time, I was frisked, then escorted to the check-in desk to check the bag.


----------



## Lunal_Tic (Feb 16, 2005)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

Require me to check the light, fine. Try to take the light, not fine. While I would always try my best to be polite I would also, w/o being belligerent, insist on talking to a supervisor. If that didn't work I would likely decide not to take the flight. 

Thievery by any other name is still the same. While I'm not certain if it is still true, the TSA could sell items "confiscated" via the internet. To me this is similar to an online pawn shop for ill gotten gains.

I still don't understand why they don't put them in tagged baggies and give them to you at the end of the flight like is done with Duty Free goods.

-LT


----------



## brightnorm (Feb 17, 2005)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

Deleted (duplicate post)


----------



## G35 (May 30, 2005)

*Safe to run SF U2 thru the airport metal detector?*

Is it safe to run my new SF U2 thru the metal detector at the airport ??? Please help. I am going on a trip in a few days, and I will be carrying my new U2. Can I pass my U2 thru along with my wallet and keys in the little tray thru the xray/metal-detector (whatever it is called) machine ? 

In a post by "KevinL", he mentioned 
[ QUOTE ]
No, I was not harassed or even spoken to by airport security. Nobody said anything about the lights. Of course I had to remember to take them off and put them in my bag first, don't run them thru the metal detector. 

[/ QUOTE ] 

WHY <<don't run them thru the metal detector>>??? Please help


----------



## UVvis (May 30, 2005)

*Re: Safe to run SF U2 thru the airport metal detec*

It should be fine, or else our laptop computers, PDA's, Ipods and most other things would die on you. My laptop has probably gone through the airport xray machines a hundred times, still works.


----------



## elgarak (May 30, 2005)

*Re: Safe to run SF U2 thru the airport metal detec*

The metal detector is the door like frame you have to step through. You have to remove all metal parts from your body and put it in those trays. Those trays and your carry-on luggage are then put through the x-ray machine. The x-rays will not harm your flashlight (as they may 35mm film, for instance). Theoretically, flashlights might raise suspicion (metal tube with batteries = bomb, though a flashlight and a bomb should look different when x-rayed), so be prepared to have it inspected and have to demonstrate that it works (though this has very seldom happened to any of us). On my last trip, I was inspected, but the guy was more interested in my plastic boxes containing digicam, replacement batteries etc, not in my lights (U2, L2, two laser pointers). Specifically excluded here in the US are "large club-like objects", so C- and D-Mags and similar lights have to go into the checked baggage.


----------



## TonkinWarrior (May 31, 2005)

*Re: Safe to run SF U2 thru the airport metal detec*

It's always good to hear about fellow flashaholics' success in carrying lights on commercial aircraft. The more we do this, the more it "conditions" the airport security folks.

I still have 2 areas of concern while "Flashlight Packin'":

1. The Trays: I've lost a couple of Photons while placing 'em in the trays with my pocket-change, keys, etc. This happened at peak rush-hours, when the security lines were clogged-up. Was it a security employee? Another traveller?
Whatever. Just be aware of this hi-risk time.

2. Checked Baggage: If you pack as much stuff as I do (flashlights, extra batteries, knives, electronics, etc.) in there, your bags are gonna get searched. I now fly with a checked bag secured with one of those locks only the TSA boys can open. I also throw a typed inventory/description of my "interesting" items... along with photos of them (to drop a big hint that I'm ready to file a claim if anything goes missing). If Pelican made a small, lockable clear/see-thru case, I might place stuff in one... and secure it w/cable to the luggage's insides.

Anybody have some other interesting ideas along these lines?


----------



## Lunal_Tic (May 31, 2005)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

Just got back from another trip to the U.S. and it went OK. I think the trick is inundation as I mentioned elsewhere. 

I came back with a new "flashlight bag" loaded as seen below. I put it in my suitcase carry-on along with a small Pelican case with 3 lights and primary and secondary batteries, large Dragon-I battery and lithium AAs plus a couple of sandwiches and loose LEDs.











They didn't even ask to open the bags they scanned. The 2D cell Mag in the picture doesn't have batteries since it's a mod host in process and because I wasn't sure they'd try an claim it as a bludgeon.

I don't know if they've gotten better or I've been lucky but I'll take it either way.

-LT


----------



## KevinL (May 31, 2005)

*Re: Safe to run SF U2 thru the airport metal detec*

Why not thru the walk-in metal detector... *BEEPBEEPBEEPBEEPBEEPBEEPBEEPBEEP* "Sir can I have a moment of your time" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

X-ray machine (the bag scanner) is perfectly ok. I took the lights out of my pockets and put them into my bag before sending it through the scanner. Putting them in the tray is fine too if you want. 

I usually keep my wallet on me, but remove all the coins and put them in the bag so there's no metal in my wallet at all. Keys and everything go in the bag. I used to fly internationally a lot (few years back) so I'm quite used to emptying all the stuff out.


----------



## Sigman (May 31, 2005)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

Nice bag and thanks for posting that pic!


----------



## Jefff (May 31, 2005)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

Ok where do ya get one of these cards? I am in for one


----------



## NightLite (May 31, 2005)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

I mam all in for the card! Here in London you have to have a good reason to carry anything! I carry 2 torches everyday and I can explain myself better if I have something to prove that I am into torches if I have one of those card! Right now I am thinking of buying one of the CPF t-shirt to wear it underneath. Please tell me where can I get one of thses membership card?


----------



## Lunal_Tic (May 31, 2005)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

Sigman,

Only half a brain, what can I say jetlag does that to me. Here's the link to the bag. You can't really fill all of the slots with lights at the same time but it will hold a fair number well. 

The individual slots are flat for knives so a light takes more space but it will swallow a 2D Mag quite easily. It also has a divider for paperwork or other stuff between the larger slots and the medium ones.

Guys you can check out Robban's link here for a DIY card or you can let me know and I'll give you the blank for the card I made. Otherwise it's all up to you and a basic graphics package, probably even MS Word or the like.

-LT


----------



## fivebyfive (May 31, 2005)

*Re: Safe to run SF U2 thru the airport metal detec*

The only conclusion that I can draw from your quote is because the flashlight will set off the metal detector. As far as I know, metal detectors will not damage any circuitry that you may have inside your flashlight. I wouldn't worry about carrying your flashlights in your carry on bag. Like said before, just be prepared to turn on your flashlight for the TSA guys. Although, they have never asked me to. Good luck. Don't stress over this.


----------



## tvodrd (May 31, 2005)

*Re: Safe to run SF U2 thru the airport metal detec*

On my last couple flights, everyone was told in advance to put keys, change etc. into their carry-on prior to screening. I think the little tupperware trays are being phased-out.

Larry


----------



## NightLite (May 31, 2005)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

Can I buy a ready-made from you? depends on the cost.


----------



## Sigman (May 31, 2005)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

Ahhhh, Smoky Mountain Knife Works! Yes, great company to deal with! Thanks!


----------



## Lynx_Arc (May 31, 2005)

*Re: Safe to run SF U2 thru the airport metal detec*

The only flashlights that might not set off a metal detector is plastic ones with no batteries in them, but the contacts in them may still set them off anyway.


----------



## GadgetTravel (May 31, 2005)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

Ihave only recently really started getting into lights but have carried a maglite for a couple years. Sometimes going months at a time with 4 or more flights per week. I often have 2 PDAs, 3 or 4 phones, batteries, chargers and the like and virtually never check bags. They occassionally open up my bag and thin things out a bit so they can re xray parts of the load to get a better view (they almost always do this at Narita based on about 15 visits in the last 3 or 4 years) but nothing worse than that usually. 

The only thing I have ever carried that they were really concerned about was a pen. It was a sterling silver fountain pen from a company in England called Yard 'O Led. It is maybe 5.5 inches when opened and because of the silver is quite heavy. It has about a 3/4 inch nib at the end which looks a lot too much like a point for the TSA. They finally let me keep it but I dont travel with it anymore. Too expensive to mess with.


----------



## NikolaTesla (May 31, 2005)

*Re: Safe to run SF U2 thru the airport metal detec*

I wonder if X-rays can make the phosphor in the LED glow? I don't think it will ruin them because my 5 watt LED flashlights have all been X-rayed hundreds of times. I fly alot.


----------



## Minjin (May 31, 2005)

*Re: Safe to run SF U2 thru the airport metal detec*

Call Surefire and ask...

Mark


----------



## Lunal_Tic (May 31, 2005)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

pipesmoker,

If you've got access to a color laser printer or even a good ink jet printer you're better off doing them yourself. That way you can change them as you choose.

The graphic is a .PNG file that I made in MS Picture it! or Digital Image Pro. I just tried to drop it into a MS word business card template and it's fine though not editable. I can also change the format to .JPG if that's easier.

You could also make your own version in MS Word easily and then could print them or change them as needed.

I was thinking to upload the blank one to ImageShack but I don't know if they could handle the size of the file I use. Then everybody could just get it there.

In any event I'll give it some thought.

GadgetTravel,
Interesting about Narita, I've never had any problems there. In fact the last trip I was carrying a 3" steel ball and an Airsoft pistol in checked baggage that I thought they'd surely question and they didn't.

If perhaps you'd like a strong but innocuous pointy thing try an old style Bic ballpoint (yellow/orange body). I recall an ad or something that showed it driven through a fairly thick piece of wood. Of course eventually they'll take all pens and pencils but until then . . .

-LT


----------



## chmsam (May 31, 2005)

*Re: Safe to run SF U2 thru the airport metal detec*

I recently went through a few security screenings while in D.C. The only advice I will pass along is, make sure the EDC lights are put into the tray. It's real easy to forget that you have a small light on you if you carry it all the time, and, yes, it will set off the screening device. (Oops!) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ohgeez.gif That will make you feel incredibly dumb (and I have yet another good reason to feel that way now).

And, yes, my wife did find that very humorous.


----------



## Lunal_Tic (Jun 1, 2005)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

Here are some links I found a while back. They still make interesting reading.

Arc AAA = a weapon?

Any Surefire Airport confiscations? 

Arc LS through Airport Security 

Flying ,Flashlights????? 

Noob with a question on Airport Security 

Airport Security 

My Flying Experience with Flashlights 

Cliff Notes version: an Arc AAA was confiscated; Arc LS owner was told to leave the bright light in checked bags 'cause it was too bright; batteries confiscated; pilot told a FAA required 2D Mag could be a club; etc. 

I put these here because I'm always referencing them but never have the links. Some comments in the threads in which I've mentioned these lead me to believe that some folks think what I'm saying is along the lines of Urban Myths. 

-LT

(edited to add a link about batteries and flights in/to India.)


----------



## EVAN_TAD (Jun 7, 2005)

*Re: Safe to run SF U2 thru the airport metal detector?*

If you go through the metal detector with your light, they will make you go through until you don't beep anymore. Just send it through the xray machine.


----------



## JBL14 (Jun 12, 2005)

*Re: Safe to run SF U2 thru the airport metal detec*

I flew from Salt Lake to Boston and back this past week. I opted not to take any of my Surefires, but I did have an Inova T3, a Streamlight Propoly Luxeon, a Sam's Club 1-watt Luxeon, and a box of extra Surefire lithium batteries in my carry-on bag. The bag was never searched.

Before this trip, I had not flown since February of 2002, when I was tagged at security for having AA batteries in my carry-on (they let that go, but I guess they wanted to see what they were; in the past, I've had my carry-on checked regularly when I had AA batteries in my carry-on). I also got hung up at LAX for having a Streamlight Batonlite (silly me) in my carry-on. After a brief delay, they let me keep it.


----------



## G35 (Jun 20, 2005)

*Re: Safe to run SF U2 thru the airport metal detec*

Hi folks,

I am the one that started this thread. I am back from my 15-day trip thru England, France, Switzerland, and Italy.

I flew British Airways from Texas to London, and back for the return trip.

I carried my U2 in my carry-on backpack. The backpack also carried six SureFire 123 batteries too.

There were no problems what so ever. My backpack never even got searched. I just sent the backpack thru the scanner, and I was allowed to pick it up at the otherside. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

The U2 seems good-as-new.

The U2 did come in handy for a few dark streets in Paris. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif Also used the U2 inside the plane (on the lowest power setting of course) to find things in my backpack while the plane's cabin lights were turned off for those wishing to nap on the NINE HOUR flight. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif


----------



## EVAN_TAD (Jun 22, 2005)

*Re: Safe to run SF U2 thru the airport metal detec*

Not the metal detector but xray. I flew with my Surefire Beast and sent it through the xray machine. When I flew out, they scanned it twice and sent me on the way. As I was flying back, the guy asked me if it was a flashlight. I said yes and asked if he wanted to see it. He said no. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif


----------



## Size15's (Jun 22, 2005)

*Re: Safe to run SF U2 thru the airport metal detec*

Don't you just hate that?
You go through "security" with mixed feelings - on the one hand you want to get through without them confiscating anything, but on the other hand you want to show off your flashlights to anybody even if its not in the best of circumstances!

Some of us likely have a speech prepared /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

Things not to say to the person "watching" the x-ray monitor:
"Does my flashlight look like a bomb?"

Al /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif


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## Ken_McE (Jun 22, 2005)

*Will X-Rays Make A LED Glow?*

[ QUOTE ]
*NikolaTesla said:*
I wonder if X-rays can make the phosphor in the LED glow? 

[/ QUOTE ]

X-Rays should mostly pass through a LED without much interaction.


----------



## brightnorm (Jun 25, 2005)

*Re: Safe to run SF U2 thru the airport metal detec*

[ QUOTE ]
*Size15's said:*
...Things not to say to the person "watching" the x-ray monitor:
"Does my flashlight look like a bomb?"

Al /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif 

[/ QUOTE ]

Kogatana AKA KT and "." once told me to never fly with the Tigerlight, even the FBOP model. He said it could easily be mistaken for a pipe bomb.

Brightnorm


----------



## litegod (Jul 2, 2005)

*Re: Flying with lights and the \"CPF ID card\"*

we recently flew to mexico out of canada. i had a dorcy lithium/xenon light in my pocket along with other assorted items. got to security, placed everything in the bin and walked through, on the way back the only thing that set off was the zipper pulls on my convertible shorts. pretty sensitive equipment all right.

the airports in mexico have a random system for doing a thorough inspection of passengers. every person that passes through the gate area has to push a button, it is attached to a red/green traffic like light. if it lights up green then you pass through. if it lights up red then you are pulled aside and given a fairly thorough check over by the security. every body that passes through must push the button, even the politicians.


----------



## pizzaman (Sep 24, 2005)

*Tactical flashlight for airline travel?*

Anyone familiar with the rules and realities of carrying a tactical type mini-light (surefire/streamlight etc.) during airline travel?



Thank you, TR


----------



## nethiker (Sep 24, 2005)

*Re: Tactical flashlight for airline travel?*

I've had no problems carrying my U2 and EDC onboard. I havn't brought any loose batteries because I have heard they may not be allowed unless contained within a light.


----------



## GadgetTravel (Sep 24, 2005)

*Re: Tactical flashlight for airline travel?*

Im not sure if the search function will pick up old threads, it may not. But there have been several on this topic. I fly a couple hundred thousand miles o more a year typically. This year might be on the low side but already well over a hundred thousand. I have in my backpack typically a Surefire E2E, Streamlight Jr. Luxeon, QIII, Eternalight Elite Max, Surefire 9P, SC3 with batteries and spare bulb, SC1 with spare P90 lamp, a couple plastic shrink wrapped packs of five CR123 batteries, 4-8 spare NiMH rechargeably AA batteries. Last couple flights I havent had the 9P gear, however. No questions ever. Last month coming back from Tokyo the Japanese security people took my backpack apart, 3 of them, including picking up the SC1 and dumping everything out and re-xraying it (they are FAR more thorough than TSA in general). No problems at all. The only thing I have ever had a problem with was a large, sterling silver fountain pen such as the one shown here:
http://www.yard-o-led.com/index.php?th=431

It is pretty big (maybe 5 inches plus) and heavy. They didnt like it at all but eventually a supervisor cleared it. It stays at home now.


----------



## pizzaman (Sep 24, 2005)

*Re: Tactical flashlight for airline travel?*

"I havn't brought any loose batteries because I have heard they may not be allowed unless contained within a light."

nethiker,

Interesting info regarding the loose batteries. I would not have considered that and have no interest in losing a couple of expensive lithium batteries, or worse, get on some insane TSA watch list because I choose to be prepared.

Thanks for the reply, TR


----------



## Paul_in_Maryland (Sep 24, 2005)

*Re: Tactical flashlight for airline travel?*

There have been several threads on this, but they can't easily be located until the search function is fixed to search the "pre-update" postings. 

Two of the tips that I remember: Don't carry a light that has a "crennelated" bezel (the bezel that looks like a Klingon weapon); don't carry spare cells on your person, and don't carry anything so large that a guard might fear that you intend to use it to hit someone. 

One forum member reported that when a guard asked why he was carrying the flashlight, he replied, "For the same reason pilots are required to have one: To see in the dark."


----------



## pizzaman (Sep 24, 2005)

*Re: Tactical flashlight for airline travel?*

"Im not sure if the search function will pick up old threads, it may not." 

GT,

I did wildcard searches for airline* and airplane*, receiving some results with no posts relating to this topic.

I appreciate your detailed and informative reply.

TR


----------



## pizzaman (Sep 24, 2005)

*Re: Tactical flashlight for airline travel?*



Paul_in_Maryland said:


> There have been several threads on this, but they can't easily be located until the search function is fixed to search the "pre-update" postings.


 
Paul, 

That explains my lack of success



Paul_in_Maryland said:


> Two of the tips that I remember: Don't carry a light that has a "crennelated" bezel (the bezel that looks like a Klingon weapon);


 
I know Surfire has a nasty defensive light like this, but does this also include the mild scallops found on the standard surfire lights?



Paul_in_Maryland said:


> One forum member reported that when a guard asked why he was carrying the flashlight, he replied, "For the same reason pilots are required to have one: To see in the dark."


 
Excellent Reply to a silly question!:rock: 

Thanks, TR


----------



## GadgetTravel (Sep 24, 2005)

*Re: Tactical flashlight for airline travel?*

Actually, Paul_in_Maryland reminded me to point out that not only are flashlights required in the cockpit, they are frequently carried by flight attendants (and used, especially on long overnight international flights) and are required to be available in the passenger cabin from what I can tell. There are typically 2 of them in rechargers bolted to the bulkhead where the flight attendents sit. Some airlines may have them in slightly different places but that is where I have seen them recently. So flashlights are definately not restricted. One comment though, I always put mine in a backpack or something when going through, not on my person. An E2E will almost certainly set off the detector (speaking from experience  ).


----------



## Size15's (Sep 24, 2005)

*Re: Tactical flashlight for airline travel?*

I know two people who have flown both internally in the USA and internationally carrying the SureFire E2d without any issue.

After all, if asked, it's just so you can tell whether it's on when you set it down isn't it?


----------



## fivebyfive (Sep 24, 2005)

*Re: Tactical flashlight for airline travel?*

I carried a Surefire Z3 in my carry on bag without any problems at all. It went through the metal detector and all. The TSA guys didn't even have me take it out and turn it on. I wouldn't worry about carrying any tactical flashlights. As long as your tactical flashlight doesn't have a knife or gun attached to it, I don't think it will be a problem.


----------



## lebox97 (Sep 24, 2005)

*Re: Tactical flashlight for airline travel?*



fivebyfive said:


> ... As long as your tactical flashlight doesn't have a knife or gun attached to it, I don't think it will be a problem.



or tear gas/pepper spray!

FYI: every aiport and airline seems to have a little different interpretation on certains things... when in doubt I print out and carry the following... http://www.tsa.gov/public/display?theme=177
http://www.tsa.gov/interweb/assetlibrary/Permitted_Prohibited_9_6_2005.pdf


----------



## yaesumofo (Sep 24, 2005)

*Re: Tactical flashlight for airline travel?*

Carry a surefire. They recognize surefire flashlights. 
Unless you travel with flashlights with those spiked bezels how can they possibly say no? As a passenger it is smart to have a flashlight especially in a hard or emergency night landing. Even during daytime crashes one of the things you hear always hear survivors talk about is the darkness and not knowing which way to go to get out. Make sure that if you are in an aircraft going down that that light is on before the impact. That alone could save your life. Carry a flashlight every time you fly and make sure all who travel with you do the same. Even if it is a photon it will make it easier to find your companions. 
Yaesumofo




pizzaman said:


> Anyone familiar with the rules and realities of carrying a tactical type mini-light (surefire/streamlight etc.) during airline travel?
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you, TR


----------



## Saaby (Sep 24, 2005)

*Re: Tactical flashlight for airline travel?*

I recently flew from Salt Lake to Michigan and back, as well as to New York and back. On both trips (all 4 flights) my Aleph was fine going through the X-Ray machine with my other pocket stuffs. The people at DTW picked it up and looked at it, to which I prematurely remarked "It's a flashlight." But they really had no issues.

I was worried I would run into trouble at JFK, since they're always under higher security, but it went through there without nary a question.

I never carry extra batteries on my person, but I did have a little Rayovac reusable package of batteries in my backpack with various AA, AAA, (Alkaline and NiMh) and a couple extra CR123s. Again, no problem. 

I'll spare you the whole story, but the first time I flew (To Michigan. I've now flown 4 times in my lifetime) I screwed up at the security check point and, to make a long story short, ended up sending about 5 gray bins + my backpack through the x-ray machine :gag:

PS: Just like yaesumofo posted, lighting on flights is a big deal. Why do you think they light up the exit row while you're landing and while you're taxiing along the runway?


----------



## picard (Sep 24, 2005)

*Re: Tactical flashlight for airline travel?*

what's TSA final verdict on flashlight? Are we clear to carry it except one with crenaleated bezel?


----------



## twl (Sep 24, 2005)

*Re: Tactical flashlight for airline travel?*

Good info.
I'm flying next week, and I was wondering about this very subject.

Thanks!


----------



## tvodrd (Sep 24, 2005)

*Re: Tactical flashlight for airline travel?*

Just a tidbit. I had a 5 hour layover in Providence, RI on my way home from Photon fest IV and a business trip several months ago. I kept running into this (fellow smoker) TSA guy out front. Shooting the breeze, I asked about flashlights, and he said they were OK, regardless of size! He said they had to let even the multiple D-cell maglights go, even though he thought it was a bad idea. I, of course, concurred. :green: What will be interesting will be flying to the Ghost Mtn get-together next month. I hope to bring a USL.

Larry


----------



## nekomane (Sep 24, 2005)

*Re: Tactical flashlight for airline travel?*

related links... 
*More airplane tales with lights*
*Aircraft emergency light - what kind?*
*Safe to run SF U2 thru the airport metal detector?*
*Lithium Batteries....Passenger Aircraft*
*Noob with a question on Airport Security *
*Airport Security *
*What are the flashlights on aircraft lifejackets?* 
*Exploding Flashlight shuts down LA Airport*
*Airline friendly Mulitool*
*airplane lights? *
*Airport Confiscation of Light?*
*Flashlights and airport security*
*Ever been stopped by airport security*
*Air Travel & My Surefire ???*
*"Tricks" to calm airport security*
*Airport security problem with homemade 123 battery*
*Flashlights in Emergency Equipment on Airplanes ..*
*Flashlights on Airplanes?*
*Any Surefire Airport confiscations?*
*AAA batteries got confiscated at airport...*
*Flashlights & Airport Insecurity Part 3*
*Lithium batteries prohibited on airlines?*
*Flashlights and Airport Insecurity PART II*
*Airport Security - Carrying Torches?*


----------



## pizzaman (Sep 24, 2005)

*Re: Tactical flashlight for airline travel?*

Wow,

Great group! Thanks to all for the helpful information links and personal insights.

Cheers, TR


----------



## Lunal_Tic (Sep 25, 2005)

*Re: Tactical flashlight for airline travel?*

Here are a couple more:

Carrying a flashlight onto the plane 

Flying with lights and the "CPF ID card"  

A lot of other links in those threads too.

-LT

edit: This comes up fairly often. Maybe we could get a sticky with all of these links in it to make it easier to research.


----------



## MrBadger (Sep 25, 2005)

*Re: Tactical flashlight for airline travel?*

Just got back from a trip to Brazil. When flying out of JFK my cary-on was searched because the screener didn't recognize the snap-link in the bag. One of the first things the guy pulled out was my Princton Tec Aurora headlamp. He played with it for a minute to figure out all the settings, then he asked if he could use it to aid in the search of my bag, so I said sure. He seemed to like the light alot. I didn't want to bring my EDC Surefire L2 for the posibility that it might not be aloud to come with me on the flight, but I think I was being a little over cautious. 

Just an interesting experience with little relevance.


----------



## yaesumofo (Sep 25, 2005)

*Re: Safe to run SF U2 thru the airport metal detector?*

My problem with all of this is that NO MATTER WHAT I set off the metal detector. 100%. In a way it makes things easy cause I know they will search my carry on 1/2 of th time when I fly. I have a knee replacment. The scanning equipment has become more sensitive. When I say knee replacment to the tsa guys they send me down the line for people with special needs. at times this can be much faster. Except when they like to look at all the goodies in my carry on.


----------



## BIGD (Sep 25, 2005)

*Re: Safe to run SF U2 thru the airport metal detector?*

One thing to remember about Surefires is the Lithium batteries. They are considered a hazardous material and are technically not allowed on airplanes. If they ask, tell them they are double "A"'s or you might loose your batteries if the TSA people are sharp.


----------



## kennyj (Sep 25, 2005)

*Re: Safe to run SF U2 thru the airport metal detector?*

I actually thought the batteries were okay if carried in a light or a spares carrier, but not in a cardboard box (possibility of movement and/or shorting out) but I could be mistaken.

At the very least, Surefire flashlights and many others are able to withstand submersion pressures above and beyond that of a pressurized airplane cabin, and as a result may protect the batteries from the rigors of air travel (or at least help contain the damage that results.) If that is the case, however, opening up the light while in-flight might be a bad idea due to sudden pressure change.


----------



## turbodog (Sep 25, 2005)

*Re: Safe to run SF U2 thru the airport metal detector?*



BIGD said:


> One thing to remember about Surefires is the Lithium batteries. They are considered a hazardous material and are technically not allowed on airplanes. If they ask, tell them they are double "A"'s or you might loose your batteries if the TSA people are sharp.



Then they better get ready to remove all batteries from most cameras.


----------



## 270winchester (Sep 25, 2005)

*Re: Safe to run SF U2 thru the airport metal detector?*

this past summer I took a cardboard box of lithiums and a spare carrier full of 123's in my backpack and no one said a thing...I specifically called them to ask and no one gave me a no other than call the airline for their policies, looks like even the people in TSA HQ weren't sure how to catogorize it.

If they do decide to take away lithium batteries, I guess all the senior citizens with earing aid and pace maker are out of luck...


----------



## BIGD (Sep 25, 2005)

*Re: Safe to run SF U2 thru the airport metal detector?*

I have a friend who is an Air Marshal and I am going to ask him about it. I know when I order batteries the box says that they are "Primary Cells" and cannot be shipped via airplane, but they are in a cardboard box. Maybe they are OK when in a device like a flashlight or a camera but I have been told "high capacity" Lithium batteries are supposed to be banned including the CR123 and CR2, I don't think what are considered "watch batteries" count. I have never had a problem with any of my lights getting through but I always worry, hope I'm wrong.


----------



## dfred (Sep 25, 2005)

*Re: Safe to run SF U2 thru the airport metal detector?*

There seems to be a lot of confusion about transporting lithium-based batteries. Perhaps there should be a sticky topic in the electronics/batteries section with a summary of the current regs, recommendations, etc.

I am far from an expert on this issue, but here are the primary lithium battery transport regulations (PDF) that would seem to apply.

On page 5 of the PDF there's a list of exceptions to their prohibition on passenger aircraft. Exception B appears to be the relevant one for primary lithium batteries carried by air passengers. The wording for spares in checked baggage is strange (does the device really have to be with the spares?), but spares in carry-on seem to be in the clear.

For reference, Energizer EL123 cells contain ~0.55g of Li per cell. So I'd think all Li/Mn02 123 and CR2 cells would be less than the 5g limit per cell. From my quick reading, I'm still unclear whether the 25g limit for batteries applies only to assembled "batteries" or the total of all cells present.

In any case, the energy stored in these cells needs to be respected. Read the first couple pages of the above document for some cases of badness occurring. If you're traveling with lithium cells please be responsible and make sure they're in good packaging to prevent shorts, physical damage, etc.


----------



## GadgetTravel (Sep 25, 2005)

*Re: Safe to run SF U2 thru the airport metal detector?*

I would really recommend against walking through the metal detector with a Surefire in your pocket. It will almost always, if not always, set of the detector. Some airports will simply make you step back and empty more out of your pockets and have you go through again. However, I do not think that is the approved policy, and it certainly isnt consistent. In some airports if you beep the metal detector you are automatically selected for detailed secondary search, chemical residue testing of your bags, etc. Depending on crowds that can take a couple minutes to 15 minutes.

Put the flashlight in a zipped-closed carry on bag with anything else that might go beep in the detector and run in on the belt through the xray machine. It will be fine that way, you wont cause a delay for those behind you and you are a lot less likely to feel like you got a free visit to the proctologist.


----------



## BIGD (Sep 25, 2005)

*Re: Safe to run SF U2 thru the airport metal detector?*

Thanks Dfred, I saw that warning on a case of 123's from Surefire so maybe the number of them was the determining factor. I will read the file you attached, good find. In the 2005 Surefire catalog they discuss their batteries versus off shore ones. Theirs have a thermal overcurrent fuse in them but some cheaper units may not, anyone know if the Titanium brand from Amondo have protection? They can cause a pretty good mess if they short out.


----------



## Paul_in_Maryland (Sep 26, 2005)

*Re: Tactical flashlight for airline travel?*

Any length is OK? I don't believe it.

How to take a LONG flashlight aboard without arousing curiosity:


Stick a 12V G&P lamp and two 17500 cells in a Surefire 9P or C3. 
Show the 3x123A light to the TSA guard. Turn it on and let him see the yellowish output that results from powering a 12V lamp with 8V. 
Once aboard, attach a Surefire A14 extender to your 3x123A light. Now you have a 4.5x123A light. 
Insert a third 17500 cell from pocket or carry-on bag (or from a second 3-cell light). 
 Now you have a 3x17500, 220-lumen light!


----------



## Cuba (Sep 27, 2005)

*Re: Tactical flashlight for airline travel?*



Paul_in_Maryland said:


> Any length is OK? I don't believe it.
> 
> How to take a LONG flashlight aboard without arousing curiosity:
> 
> ...


You don't think assembling a cylindrical metal object containing batteries will arouse suspicion in other overly-paranoid passengers?


----------



## G35 (Oct 3, 2005)

*Re: Safe to run SF U2 thru the airport metal detector?*

Regarding carrying Surefire batteries thru airports -

I had TWO boxes (of 12 Surefire batteries) in my carry-on backpack. I carried it on British Airways to-and-from Europe. Airport screeners never said a thing. Well, it did freak-out some screeners for the EuroRail train system that runs from London to Paris. But, after a visual inspection, they had no problem with the batteries.

I travel all thru London, Paris, Switcherland, and Italy with these batteries in my backback (which was with me CONSTANTLY). I traveled on British Airways for the TransAtlantic flight; I traveled the train system EXTENSIVELY thru Europe including two overnight train trips.

NEVER HAD A PROBLEM regarding the batteries, and I did go thru MANY screeners for the various air flights, MANY train trips, and several Customs inspections.


----------



## nc987 (Oct 3, 2005)

*Re: Safe to run SF U2 thru the airport metal detector?*

Now i wonder if they would let you take a E2D aboard a passenger aircraft....


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## kennyj (Oct 3, 2005)

*Re: Safe to run SF U2 thru the airport metal detector?*

Probably depends on the screener. If you avoid calling attention to the crennelations, you might get through just fine. You could explain them as being there to let light out of the bezel (safety) and enable the light to stand on end (utility) and they do, in fact, fulfill these purposes just fine. It's not really a weapon per se, just a *potential* weapon, and not one particularly well-suited to offensive action.

A beamshaper or something similar that covers up and thus detracts attention from the crennelations might also help, as long as it doesn't look as though you're trying to hide a potential edged weapon.

In any case, the BatonLight has been known to be allowed onto planes, and while the E2D is noticably more aggressive, its name doesn't call itself out as a potential weapon. 

I doubt you'd have any trouble unless the screeners concerned were either familiar with the E2D and its potential uses, or VERY paranoid (probably require a combination of the two.)


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## louie (Oct 17, 2005)

*Lights on airplane report - yawn*

Flew last week out of Seattle to LaGuardia and back. Carryon only. Not a peep from TSA at either airport.
Electronics-wise I had:
-HDS B42GT with LiIon RCR123
-Surefire KL1gen1, reflector and LED mod/Aleph 1x123/McE2s/LiIon RCR123
-Arc-LS/2AA pack/NiMH-AAs
-River Rock 2AAA
-6 spare 123 (3 Battery Station, 3 Surefire)
-2 spare AA NiMH

plus a digicam with 4 AA NiMH, RipVan 4AA charger, shaver with 2AA alkalines, cellphone/charger, walkman radio, etc.


----------



## BlackDecker (Oct 17, 2005)

*Re: Lights on airplane report - yawn*

dang, you had 20lbs of gear there alone


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## RA40 (Oct 17, 2005)

*Re: Lights on airplane report - yawn*

Probably safe to say that flashlights don't bring the red flags up. When flying, I usually have about 3-4 lights available. My camera gear and film in 50% of the cases in the US, is taken aside for hand inspection. In Japan, they are accustomed to the gadgetry. No matter where, the Noblex camera always draws a longer look when going through X-ray.


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## Bravo25 (Oct 17, 2005)

*Re: Lights on airplane report - yawn*

Shoot man, around here you can't even go into a federal courthouse with anything that contains batteries.


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## tvodrd (Oct 17, 2005)

*Re: Lights on airplane report - yawn*

I just got home and unpacked from the Ghost Mountain get-together. My carry-on received no additional scruitany at LAX or Reno!!! I forgot two include the two that are back in my pockets.






Larry


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## Jeffie (Oct 18, 2005)

*Re: Lights on airplane report - yawn*

Hi, new member here...

any thoughts on whether an SF E2d would raise any issues for aiport/airplane carry?


As for mew, proud owner of a new SF-M3 (on Rem 870), 2 E2d's, and a Pentagon L2. And of course a Nuwai 3wLed light.


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## sadkomodo (Oct 18, 2005)

*Re: Lights on airplane report - yawn*

Hi, new member also.
Even local law enforcement can't get into a federal courthouse with all their(my) equipment.
TSA shouldn't have a problem w/ lights.


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## Jeffie (Oct 18, 2005)

*Re: Lights on airplane report - yawn*

Except the E2d is (or could be) considered a weapon.

Thats my concern.


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## Lunal_Tic (Oct 18, 2005)

*Re: Lights on airplane report - yawn*

Tactical flashlight for airline travel?  

That's one of the more recent threads with a number of other links inside. It's good to hear it's getting better. There were a lot of shenanigans before and it wasn't very consistent.

-LT


----------



## louie (Oct 18, 2005)

*Re: Lights on airplane report - yawn*

Welcome to CPF, newbies!!
There's been some discussion about bringing pointy defensive lights through TSA. I don't know if there's a definitive answer, but if it looks like a weapon, TSA likely has the authority to take it. Maybe no one seems willing to try it!

You can try a search for E2d discussions...


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## GadgetTravel (Oct 18, 2005)

*Re: Lights on airplane report - yawn*

Im not sure about the E2D due to the bezel. There have been numerous threds about flashlights in general on planes however. There is a REQUIREMENT to have flashlights on planes. And they are plainly accessable. Now if you try to take a 6D mag light modified with 6 inch nails sticking out of it, all bets are off. However, most standard flashlights are not a problem at all.

Several of us travel a lot, both domestically and internationally. I typically take and E2E, Eternalite, QIII, and Streamlight Jr. Luxeon with me and occassionally an E1L, 9P and some others and have had no problems. 

I was recently on jury duty too and had to go through security in the Nassau County NY courthouse. They saw the E2E in my pack and asked if it was a flashlight, I said yes and that was it. And I was on a trial so I went in 8 or 9 times, no problem at all.


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## bfg9000 (Oct 19, 2005)

*Re: Lights on airplane report - yawn*

Haven't had a problem with a MagHID as carry-on; they've never even turned it on or opened it. So even a ~2D cell metal Maglite bristling with 8AAs and an epoxied in ballast is now OK. Of course, Mag doesn't advertise it as a weapon...

Biggest things I carried on lately were two 6V lanterns complete with batteries. Anyone want to try carrying a Thor?


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## Lunal_Tic (Oct 19, 2005)

*Re: Lights on airplane report - yawn*



bfg9000 said:


> Anyone want to try carrying a Thor?



I think SLAs are a no-no on airplanes, checked or carry-on.

-LT


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## flashgreenie (Nov 4, 2005)

*Re: Lights on airplane report - yawn*

carried my M3T-CB home last week as carry on through Athens and Vienna airports. Not even a raised eyebrow...


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## cslinger (Nov 29, 2005)

*Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

Well went on my Thanksgiving Vacation and flew to Maine. I was worried about how they might react to me carrying a flashlight and although I could always dump the battery I didn't want to bring a nice light that some TSA baboon would decide to "Approprate" for the "safety" of myself and others.

I brought my Streamlight TwinTask 1L. Nobody ever batted an eye. No problems what-so-ever. I also had a PEAK Matterhorn on my keychain, also no problems. 

As an aside the TwinTask 1L makes a marvelous low cost multifunction EDC light. Used it for navigating, reading, etc. Light never waivored or gave me any low battery indications and carried very well. I prefer my Surefires and my HDS EDC's but the little Streamlight could and did do anything asked of it very well.

Chris


----------



## Babo (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

What prompted you to refer to the TSA employees as "Baboons"?

Why would you be concerned over carrying a flashlight?
The federal regs are readily available to everyone online. Didn't you read
them?


----------



## cslinger (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

I have had issues with the TSA in the past. Most of the TSA employees I have experienced are unprofessional, seem undereducated and most certainly do not know their job. My latest run in with the TSA was when I was lucky enough to spend over an hour with them trying to explain to them just exactly what a wireless network adaptor for a laptop was and how exactly it was used. Until this trip I have yet to meet one who knows more about the regulations or even as much about them as I do. 

As far as the flashlight I know a couple other folks who were relieved of their flashlights and no matter how much they protested never got them back. 

The TSA as an organization, in my personal experience, is an inept buch of folks providing a feel good service that likely does little to nothing to prevent violence in the air. 

Now I will say that this past trip all seemed to be polite, professional and seemed to know their job although somebody in front of me got hung up for a half hour while they worked through the fact that his name on the boarding pass was Bob but on his license it was Robert.

This isn't a dig on every single TSA employee. I am sure there are a great number of them that are professional, hard working, knowledgeable folks who really are trying to make a difference. The problem is I haven't met many of those folks.

RANT OVER.


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## zespectre (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

The part I just can't understand is why there isn't some sort of service to send "unacceptable" stuff back to yourself (Hello FedEX, you'd make a killing!). The policy of "confiscation only" seems awfully vulnerable to abuse. Or am I just misunderstanding here (I avoid flying like the plague).


----------



## Geologist (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

I would second cslinger's comments.

Among many experiences while in the US, was when I had flown from outside the country to the USA with a wedding gift that I was hand carrying. The gift was wrapped when I bought it. I carried with me the entire journey, through no less than 6 Xray security stops with no issues. I then go to board a 45 minute flight, and AT THE GATE, a TSA tells me that I have to open the gift. I ask why and he states that it is official regulations. I tell them the above story which I am not sure he could even comprehend. He sticks to the "official regulation" BS and tells me that I can't get on the plane until I open the gift. I told them fine - get your boss because I did not believe that was a regulation. I mean after all the gift had been xray'd enough times that it is probably radioactive anyway! Well lucky for me, the plane was already running late - and he "allowed me" to get on the plane without opening the gift. Really nice guy................


----------



## Geologist (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*



Babo said:


> The federal regs are readily available to everyone online. Didn't you read
> them?




And yes many of us have read the regulations [that seem to change *very* often] I plan to start carrying a copy with me as many of the TSA people do not seem to have read these. Not sure why - they are available online - like you said. I can not confirm this but I would imagine that TSA employees give nice knives as Christmas gifts!


----------



## nikon (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*



cslinger said:


> .....somebody in front of me got hung up for a half hour while they worked through the fact that his name on the boarding pass was Bob but on his license it was Robert.


 

Sounds like "baboon" may be too generous a word to describe some of these people.


----------



## bwaites (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

In defense of the TSA employees, (and I seldom defend Government employees of ANY kind) who like LEO's, are underappreciated until an emergency happens or is averted, I recently flew back to the North/South Carolina, Virginia, Washington DC area.

I met quite a few TSA folks, all of whom were reasonably courteous and helpful. (Though I still haven't figured out a good reason for removing my shoes!)

It's a tough, stressful job where one mistake might mean a hijacking, bombing, or at best, shutdown of the secure area while a search is made. 

Try to stay cheerful and helpful through all that, while thousands of people pass through your screening point!! 

Try to stay cheerful and helpful realizing that one such mistake will mean you are unemployed!

Even though I feel the restriction on small blades is ridiculous since I can make a much more effective weapon from a writing pen or spoke of a wheelchair, and other than the belief that passengers will ever again be threatened by a box cutter which the TSA seems to propagate, I think they are trying to make it safer. I'm not sure they are, and I think the cost of a couple sky marshals on each flight would be both more effective and less costly, but they do TRY, and no one else seems to have come up with a better way to handle it.

Bill


----------



## prof (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

I actually had a *good* experience with TSA recently. I was traveling with a laptop and laptop cable lock. I had removed the laptop but left the lock in my carryon. The TSA employee was looking and looking, so I mentioned that there was a flashlight (minimag with nite-ize drop in--great travel light) and cable lock. He looked up, smiled, and said "I see the light, and that really does look like a lock! Thanks!". I told him he was welcome to look--he said no, now I know what it is.

When I came back, I took the lock out also!


----------



## nethiker (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

Describing certain people as a "baboon" is certainly an insult to the baboons, but there are a few bad apples in any bunch.

My personal experience with the TSA, especially in the last year or so, has been very positive. I've been treated with more respect and concern as a weary traveler than in the pre-TSA days. I also feel like they are actually concerned about security which makes me more comfortable as I travel.

I don't envy the TSA their jobs. It must be a bit depressing to look at every man, woman and child they see each day as a potential terrorist--always aware that they may let the next hijacker slip by even when they practice their training fully (which means scrutinizing people who's names don't match their ID's).

So far, no problems traveling with a U2 or HDS.

Seems like the TSA have one of those thankless jobs. I try to say thanks as often as I can. 
______
Greg


----------



## RAF_Groundcrew (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

I don't fly very often, and when I do, it is generally on military duty, even if we're on a civilian aircraft, but I have never had problems with a flashlight as hand luggage, in a jacket pocket. I find it takes me so long to empty my pockets, remove my belt (sometimes even my watch) to pass through the metal detectors, that I have taken to bringing a clear poly bag, and unloading my metalware into the bag while standing in line for security. 

I have flown to the Antarctic on a civil flight with kitchen knives in a knife roll packed in my hard suitcase, and none of the airline employees said anything, although I specifically informed them of the fact at check in.

So, of the folks who have had lights confiscated, what kind of lights were they? I can possibly understand concern over a long maglite type flashlight as hand luggage, but do 'ordinary' Surefires get 'stolen' often?


----------



## jkuo13 (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*



zespectre said:


> The part I just can't understand is why there isn't some sort of service to send "unacceptable" stuff back to yourself (Hello FedEX, you'd make a killing!). The policy of "confiscation only" seems awfully vulnerable to abuse. Or am I just misunderstanding here (I avoid flying like the plague).



Aren't there options for shipping stuff back to yourself? I remember being at RDU and having to ship my Streamlight batonlite back to myself using some special USPS booth. It cost me $6 for some super slow shipping option. This was a couple of years ago, so I don't know if the option still exists. After that incident, I decided to substitute a photonlight on my keychain if I have to fly.

The annoying part of the experience was that the security person explained how the batonlite was a weapon by saying that it could be used to club someone and did a fake-o demonstration of the said clubbing action. It seems to me that punching someone with my house/car keys would hurt more than the silly clubbing with a 5 inch flashlight.


----------



## David_Campen (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*



> .....somebody in front of me got hung up for a half hour while they worked through the fact that his name on the boarding pass was Bob but on his license it was Robert.


I have yet to figure out how having to present ID is going to deter a suicide bomber. It is just another way for the Feds to invade the privacy of average citizens.


----------



## nethiker (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*



David_Campen said:


> I have yet to figure out how having to present ID is going to deter a suicide bomber. It is just another way for the Feds to invade the privacy of average citizens.



I'm under the impression that the feds review itineraries for suspect names. If they don't check ID's, suspected terrorist John Doe can make sure someone misses their flight and take their place. This is why when you purchase your tickets last minute you have a good chance to be invited through the extra screening process.


----------



## gadget_lover (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*



nethiker said:


> I'm under the impression that the feds review itineraries for suspect names. If they don't check ID's, suspected terrorist John Doe can make sure someone misses their flight and take their place. This is why when you purchase your tickets last minute you have a good chance to be invited through the extra screening process.




Actually, it's completely ineffective.

1) They do NOTHING to validate the ID. California driver license has several measures to prevent simple copying, including UV inks in different colors and holograms. They don't look for them. They simply confirm that the name matches the name on the boarding pass.

2) They don't validate the boarding pass at the checkpoint. Anyone can fake a borading pass that will get them into the terminal. Fly on monday under your own name, digitally duplicate and alter the pass for a Friday flight. They don't check.

3) They don't check that a person going though the checkpoint flies anywhere.

4) They don't check to ensure that people who fly in actually leave the terminal.

and on and on and on.

People have come up with better ideas, they just have not been implemented.


----------



## nc987 (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

The one thing I am curious to see someone try to get on a plane is a Surefire E2D. Anyone tried?


----------



## James S (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

oh man, it's so easy to rant about airline security. It does nothing for our security thats for sure. The only things that DO make a difference empower individual people to take responsibility and do something. Unfortunately it's awfully hard to find worthy individuals willing to work for that pay that you can trust with common sense. So instead we have lists and high school dropouts making sure that my 5 year old daughter puts her tennis shoes through the XRay machine. (where the high school dropout isn't probably able to distinguish between the batteries that make the butterflies on them flash when she walks and a bomb anyway)

As far as confiscate only, I believe that it is at the discretion of the employee if they will let you leave the area with your gear to resend home or not. Technically, just bringing a known item into the security line is a crime. So they dont technically have to let you leave with it. But since they also dont technically have to account for the material that they have confiscated there is a huge conflict of interest here.

I think the whole thing is stupid, as my nail clippers have committed no crime and their opportunity for doing so on the flight is vanishingly small. Maybe if you glued dozens of nail clippers together into some kind of super evil mega clipper...

Nope, I'd rather do away with security all together and use the money to guarantee that there is an air martial on every flight as part of the staff. Knowing for sure that there is at least one guy with a gun who is looking for you to try something would be much more deterrent to hijacking than the crew of folks patting down jewish grandmothers looking for sympathizers with arab terrorists...


----------



## Jumpmaster (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

About not having an option to ship something back to yourself from the security checkpoint...I was watching some show where the guy was asking why he had to leave a lighter there. He asked the same thing and the airline told him they don't have any way to ship stuff back from the airport because of "security reasons"...

If I recall correctly, they said someone could just as well drop off a bomb to ship to themselves as someone could their lighter, knife, whatever...

And yes...the term "baboon" is too good for the TSA idiots I've met. When I go to SHOT Show, I will have a recent copy of the regulations in hand. I think most of the "regulations" they cite are just made up on the spot and you're at the mercy of whatever "regulations" they feel like making up at that moment. When I was coming home from training (with a US military ID), they made me take my (analog, automatic, antique) watch off and send it through the x-ray instead of putting it in the change tray...and then they lost it inside the x-ray . And then they didn't care. It took me demanding to see their supervisor before they'd do anything to locate my watch.

JM-99


----------



## Hookd_On_Photons (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

Well, somebody's going to post this sooner or later:

Los Angeles Internation Airport shut down by exploding flashlight


----------



## Jumpmaster (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*



Hookd_On_Photons said:


> Well, somebody's going to post this sooner or later:
> 
> Los Angeles Internation Airport shut down by exploding flashlight



Wow...and they were just plain old C-cell batteries...in checked baggage. Still, if I take any CR-123's, they'll be new ones, in my checked bag in a Surefire spares carrier...should be fairly safe that way.

JM-99


----------



## bwaites (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

At least they weren't Lithium cells!!

I'm still trying to figure out how C cells could explode, especially inside a plastic light!

Bill


----------



## Pila_Power (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

"Nope, I'd rather do away with security all together and use the money to guarantee that there is an air martial on every flight as part of the staff. Knowing for sure that there is at least one guy with a gun who is looking for you to try something would be much more deterrent to hijacking than the crew of folks patting down jewish grandmothers looking for sympathizers with arab terrorists..."

I dunno on this point, I don't see a gun preventing a bomb from exploding in the cargo hold...

I do agree however, that marshalls should be on every flight, in every country. I only see finance as the major obstacle here. Are there any other stand-out reasons for air marshalls to not be on every flight?


----------



## Ken_McE (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

>Babo What prompted you to refer to the TSA employees as "Baboons"?

He is suggesting that their behavior is normally unintelligent, arbitrary, and based on either habits or emotional snap decisions. This seems to be a good one word summary of many TSA employees.

>Why would you be concerned over carrying a flashlight?

Er, because he has a nice light and was kind of hoping not to lose it?

>The federal regs are readily available to everyone online. 
>Didn't you read them?

The regs are only the faintest of guidelines. They can follow or ignore them totally at whim. If the man says you can get on the plane, but you can't bring your shoe laces on board, they're not getting on the plane, period. 

By the way, you can buy a wide variety of confiscated pocketknives, tiny scissors, and other items on eBay. Usually they are sold in batches at excellent prices but with very skimpy descriptions.


----------



## Ken_McE (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*



Pila_Power said:


> "I do agree however, that marshalls should be on every flight, in every country. I only see finance as the major obstacle here. Are there any other stand-out reasons for air marshalls to not be on every flight?


 
You will recall that the only 911 plane that was stopped, was stopped by the passengers? The simplest thing would be to issue a taser to every female passenger as they board. Anyone who didn't want one would be offered a dummy. They hand them back in when they deplane. No tasers for the guys because they would taser their buddies for the fun of it.


----------



## tvodrd (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

I've recently flown twice to CPF get-togethers, packing about a dozen lights in my carry-on. Largest was E2-class and not "defender." I've yet to be asked to open my bag. On a 5-hour layover at Providence, RI, after attending Photon Fest 4 about 6 months ago, I kept running into the same TSA guy (fellow smoker) outside. I struck up a conversation regarding (ta da) flashlights and flying. I even showed him a few. He said that flashlights were _specefically_ exempt from restriction, including the large Mags, which he didn't think was such a good idea. (I, of course, agreed! :green: ) I don't think I would care to try it with a SF Porcupine.

Larry


----------



## tvodrd (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

On another note, unless the BGs can get 10+ _martial artists_ with stout metal ballpoints/ceramic box cutters onto a flight, I sincerely doubt another 9/11 takeover will occur. Cockpit doors have been "hardened," and the passengers ain't gonna stand for it! JMnotsoHO!

Larry


----------



## fleegs (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

Where do you find the regulations online? I am flying soon and plan to take all my lights and batteries with me in a carry on.


Thanks,
rob


----------



## Lunal_Tic (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

Here's a good post that links to quite a number of TSA/flashlight related threads: Tactical flashlight for airline travel?  

Here are a couple more:

Carrying a flashlight onto the plane 

Flying with lights and the "CPF ID card"  

A lot of other links in those threads too.

-LT

edit: This comes up fairly often. Maybe we could get a sticky with all of these links in it to make it easier to research since the "search" function still doesn't work right.


----------



## C4LED (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

Pila_Power makes a good point about cargo.

Something like less than 1% of cargo gets screened. Most regular passenger flights also carry cargo in addition to the checked luggage.

It took only about 1 pound of explosives to bring down the Pan Am flight over Scotland in the late 80's.


----------



## my name is fake (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

OK..


question; whats TSA?

BTW, here in Malaysia, so far, on local flights, had no problems carrying a flashlight. But im only taking abt the Fenix here because I dont have my SF C2 or Lumaray FL6 yet. which brings me to the next question:

Im picking up those 2 items from my colleague in Europe, specifically Amsterdam, sometime next week. I dont plan to keep my C2 & FL6 as my check in luggage. Will this cause a problem at Schipol Airport? does anybody know?

Thanks.


----------



## Cmoore (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

Here is the link to TSA's Permitted and Prohibited Items list:

http://www.tsa.gov/interweb/assetlibrary/Permitted_Prohibited_9_6_2005.pdf


----------



## Lunal_Tic (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*



> *From the above TSA document:* The prohibited and permitted items chart is not intended to be all-inclusive and is updated as necessary. To ensure everyone’s security, the screener may determine that an item not on the prohibited items chart is prohibited. In addition, the screener may also determine that an item on the permitted chart is dangerous and therefore may not be brought through the security checkpoint.



This means they can make it up as they go. I carry a copy of the latest version of this when I travel but I have only slim hopes of it swaying the TSA agent if there is a problem.

They do seem to be getting better, at least about flashlights, but the above disclaimer leaves all things open to interpretation and that may leave you without your gear.

Also the items confiscated are often sold rather than destroyed. Seems to be a conflict of interest if you can receive money for items deemed "questionable".

-LT


----------



## tm3 (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

to avoid possible confiscation, why not keep the flashlight in checked luggage?


----------



## fleegs (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*



tm3 said:


> to avoid possible confiscation, why not keep the flashlight in checked luggage?


 
Couldn't they be stolen from your luggage? That is why I carry them on.

rob


----------



## paulr (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

TSA = Transportation Safety Authority, the US govt agency in charge of airport security.

AFAIK they're not authorized to confiscate anything from you against your will, except possibly if it's something illegal for you to possess in the first place (e.g. drugs). If it's something legal but prohibited on airplanes (e.g. pocket knife), they can only refuse to let you into the boarding area with it. You can then either turn it over to them for "disposal" (which seems to often mean they keep it for themselves) and board your plane, or you can keep the item and they turn you away. If there's enough time left before your flight, the simplest thing to do is just go back to the ticket counter with the item and check it as luggage. Then go through security again. That's happened to me a couple of times with pocket knives that I forgot about. I've never gotten serious hassle about flashlights. When I carried an Arc LS with the clickie switch (a weird military-looking thing that's hard to identify at first glance) they looked at it suspiciously a few times but explaining that it was a flashlight was enough to satisfy them (they pushed the button to make sure).

The worst situation is if you have an expensive pocket knife and your plane is leaving in 2 minutes. You have to choose between giving up the knife or missing your flight. But they can't force you to give up the knife AFAIK. A missed flight is a hassle but not the end of the world. It happens for plenty of other reasons, so what's one more.


----------



## Lunal_Tic (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*



tm3 said:


> to avoid possible confiscation, why not keep the flashlight in checked luggage?



Because I use the flashlight on the flights. 

-LT


----------



## Cmoore (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*



Lunal_Tic said:


> This means they can make it up as they go. I carry a copy of the latest version of this when I travel but I have only slim hopes of it swaying the TSA agent if there is a problem.
> 
> They do seem to be getting better, at least about flashlights, but the above disclaimer leaves all things open to interpretation and that may leave you without your gear.
> 
> -LT




Yep, I think they are getting better too. However, I don't think a 6-cell Mag in carry-on luggage would make it by most screeners -- to close to baseball bat. If I had a Surefire E2D or a light with TID attached (Tactical Impact Device), I'd make sure I put them in checked baggage.

So long as your flashlight is not perceived as capable of being used as a weapon (read club or kubaton), I think the risk of having your flashlight(s) confiscated is pretty low.

With respect to lithium batteries, I understand Energizer's policy is to restrict their sales force to no more than 12ea CR123s in checked baggage -- probably a good guide for those CPFers considering flying with their light collection.


----------



## Jumpmaster (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*



paulr said:


> they looked at it suspiciously a few times but explaining that it was a flashlight was enough to satisfy them (they pushed the button to make sure).



To make sure it wasn't an explosive?? So if it had been an explosive device and the button was the switch to activate it...oh geez...great...

All of the airports I've been through lately have explosives detectors -- when in doubt, they swab your "suspicious" item down and put the swab in the detector. They've done this to a radio and a GPS receiver to me, so far...

BTW, did you know one of those people in Houston thought my challenge coin was an AA coin? I said, "No...it's a military challenge coin.." He was really dubious and condescending about it (don't remember what he said exactly, but when I said it was a challenge coin, he sort of reacted like "Yeah...sure it is...") -- I began to attempt to explain what it was...then I stopped mid-sentence and said, "You know...you can think that's what it is if you want to, but I don't have time to explain this to you right now and you're not worth it...bye." and as my stuff was at the end of the conveyor waiting for someone else to take it, I took my coin and got the rest of my stuff and left. (BTW, the coin said "III Corps, Fort Hood, Texas"...)

JM-99


----------



## cognitivefun (Nov 29, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

if you travel a lot, consider browsing www.flyertalk.com. I am a mod there and it is a terrific forum for all things travel including TSA issues.


----------



## besafe2 (Nov 30, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

I have never been questioned by TSA when bringing a mini mag on board. However with out giving out any thing on security, I can tell you that most of the TSA are jackasses who don't have a clue. I am employed by a major airline & see what they do every day!


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## Praxis (Nov 30, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*



nc987 said:


> The one thing I am curious to see someone try to get on a plane is a Surefire E2D. Anyone tried?




Took one on a plane about two weeks ago, Philadelphia to O'Hare and back. Actually, my significant other carried it on. She has been taking it everywhere since I gave it to her. TSA screeners didn't even bat an eye.

Interesting thing is that she works for TSA's mass transit security division (subways, trains, etc.) and she doesn't trust the TSA screeners. She comments that TSA Aviation gets about 10X more funding than mass transit and they still can't seem to get their act together.


----------



## prof (Nov 30, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*



jkuo13 said:


> Aren't there options for shipping stuff back to yourself? I remember being at RDU and having to ship my Streamlight batonlite back to myself using some special USPS booth. It cost me $6 for some super slow shipping option. This was a couple of years ago, so I don't know if the option still exists. After that incident, I decided to substitute a photonlight on my keychain if I have to fly.
> 
> The annoying part of the experience was that the security person explained how the batonlite was a weapon by saying that it could be used to club someone and did a fake-o demonstration of the said clubbing action. It seems to me that punching someone with my house/car keys would hurt more than the silly clubbing with a 5 inch flashlight.



I fly out of RDU myself. There are no longer any options to ship (at least last time I was there, less than 6 months ago).


----------



## edakoppo (Nov 30, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*



Ken_McE said:


> You will recall that the only 911 plane that was stopped, was stopped by the passengers? The simplest thing would be to issue a taser to every female passenger as they board. Anyone who didn't want one would be offered a dummy. They hand them back in when they deplane. No tasers for the guys because they would taser their buddies for the fun of it.



Problem is that Tasers for the most part don't work except on people with heart conditions, where they work only too well. The last time I flew (before 9/11) the airport screeners were low-wage ESL nitwits, but I flew with a sub-3" PE Delica and was a threat to no one, but managed to open my bag of peanuts without spraying them all over the cabin, and was not defenseless should anything have happened in either airport. 

It is most unlikely that terrorists will use the same tactics again for their next strike, and far more likely that one will be the victim of a conventional crime entering or leaving the airport, for which defensive implements should be carried _on the body, not in checked luggage, from which they could be stolen either by TSA or baggage handlers_. TSA, being government agents, are covered under sovereign immunity. This means they can steal from you, harrass you, or do damn near anything else they want with impunity. They cannot be held legally liable for incorrect action or failure to take action. BTW, this goes for most agents of government, at any level, in most states. Read "Dial 911 and Die," available from JPFO, if you want the proof.


----------



## pizzaman (Nov 30, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

_What prompted you to refer to the TSA employees as "Baboons"?_

I had just assumed it was the excessive body hair, low IQ, and poo flinging. But, it sounds like there are additional behavioral issues.

TR (Pondering whether to bring his prized SF A2 in black HA or his beater $10 cyclops xenon on his next flight). (Or maybe just quit carrying luggage to the zoo).


----------



## cslinger (Nov 30, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

In their defense I have never observed any poo flinging, but I don't fly all that regularly. 

As for lights I know have been "confiscated" one was a Surefire 6P the other was Mini Maglite.

Honestly in their defense, it is a crappy, low paying, thankless job and there are most likely lots of folks who take it seriously and work hard to both protect and serve travellers. My problem is the great great majority I have witnessed have been either inept, rude or both. No poo slingling though so there is a bright side I guess.

Chris


----------



## RAF_Groundcrew (Nov 30, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

I wouldn't have thought that something like a 6P or mini mag would be 'stolen'. I'm sure the TSA guys see enough lights of various kinds passing through, and in the hands of the police/airport security that they know exactly what they have in front of them. I think last time I flew civilian, I left my lights (E1e and 9P I think) in my jacket pockets, and sent the whole jacket through the X-ray (they seem to like x-raying padded jackets). No questions asked about anything. When I do carry knives (Spyderco Military, Glock field knife, kitchen knives etc), they most definitely go in the hard suitcase. By the time I go through the metal detector, I never have anything questionable on my person (I do not consider flashlights something that airport security should get concerned about, as long as it's not a baton substitute).

I may have been shielded from the latest trends in civilian practices, by virtue of taking the 'military passengers' check in line at most of the places I have recently visited, but a military ID and a polite manner help a lot (many people I know could kill with a metal ball point pen, so an E1e should cause little concern. If I were a TSA official, I might wonder (to myself) why someone needed an M6 on an aircraft, but not from a size point of view.
:touche:


----------



## edakoppo (Nov 30, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*



RAF_Groundcrew said:


> If I were a TSA official, I might wonder (to myself) why someone needed an M6 on an aircraft, but not from a size point of view.



Exactly my point. I won't try to speak for the UK or any other country, but in the US the citizens are not the property of the state (and if there is anywhere that the citizens _are_ the property of the state, that is flat-out wrong). In a supposedly free society (albeit getting less so by the day), it is not up to some government lackey to decide what we as individuals need. It is up to us and the damned government needs to shut up and deal with it, not vice versa. Our government may have been formed by, of, and for the people, but it is increasingly from, to, and against the people. This must stop.


----------



## tm3 (Nov 30, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

i'm learning a lot from this thread.

paulr how do you go about checking your pocket knife on your return to the check-in counter? when i go thru check-in, my luggage is exiting on the conveyor belt before i have my ticket in my pocket and is long gone by the time i get to security. so i don't see how you could get your luggage back to toss in your pocket knife.

i wish i had known the technique the time i had to "sacrifice" the SAK i had mistakenly carried with me once.


----------



## flashfan (Nov 30, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

It has been in the news recently that Homeland Security/TSA will be relaxing their rules a bit, and may even be allowing things such as small multi-tools, small scissors, etc.

I pack my M3 and/or M6 in checked baggage, but am always leery that I'll find that they had been "liberated" before I reach my destination. My bro works for the airlines, and he's seen a large dive light removed from baggage because of a fire hazard. If the light is locked out or otherwise "disabled," I would hope that it would be okay...


----------



## BlackDecker (Nov 30, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

Is TSA thorough in baggage scans??

I was flying back home after a backpacking trip at the Grand Canyon. I forgot, but left 3 cans of propane(!) for my backpacking stove in my carryon bag. It passed through security at Phoenix without any question from TSA employees.

I had forgotten about it until I got home and opened the bag!


----------



## cslinger (Nov 30, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*



> Is TSA thorough in baggage scans??



There have been a couple of instances relatively recently (Post 9/11) where folks have made it on to planes with loaded firearms. These folks were legally carrying, up until that point anyway, and just forgot about the gun. So my guess is TSA thoroughness can range from fanatical to non-existent.

Chris


----------



## nc987 (Nov 30, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

in todays paper

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/APWires/headlines/D8E71MF86.html


----------



## Lightbringer (Nov 30, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory?id=1360145&page=2

TSA to allow scissors, tools on plane.

i guess that story helps a little. a question about carrying a flashlight. lets say that they say your e2e or L4 poses a hazard. Wouldnt it be easier to dump the cells and ask to carry it unloaded? i mean they could argue the kubotan point...but like others mentioned...a ball point pen can be deadly.


----------



## Yooper (Nov 30, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

My father carries a 3D Mag on every flight in his carryon, for the express purpose of having it available as a weapon. He flies weekly. Never even a second look from TSA.


----------



## pfmedic (Dec 1, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

In the world that we live in, if you want your light to come with you, you'll have to check it in your luggage. Unfortunately, I have had stuff stolen out of my luggage in between the time I checked it and picked it up on the other side. It's a gamble, so I dont bring anything anymore.

The moral of the story is to either leave it at home or...

you can put an exploding dyepack in your L1P. That'll teach 'em! :rock:


----------



## guntotin_fool (Dec 1, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

My 80 year old mother knits, she has taken her knitting on many flights since 911. she has a pair of scissors and a little seam ripper thing in her bag too. never once has she been questioned about her 14 inch knitting needles. she has however been forced to remover her little old lady keds sneakers several times. 

TSA is a joke. the times i have flown, all the people getting searched and wanded by hand were 70+ or blond good looking women, Obviously "Olive skinned" men are almost always passed with out any scrutiny. One guy was such a twitch that i was seriously considering not getting on the airplane if he got on my flight. I saw one really good looking woman get frisked to the point of her crying by a TSA employee who after the search went over to his fellow workers and knucked each of them and smirked. It was clear he was just copping a feel. She repeatedly asked for a woman to do the search and they responded that it was too far away and she would just have to miss her flight. had I been on the other side of the line I would have called for her superior, as it was i gave her my card and told her i had seen what happened and was willing to validate any complaint which she might file, Her response was that it happened every time she had to fly...


----------



## Pila_Power (Dec 1, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

What's a challenge coin please? 

I'm obviously from the land of noclue 

"but when I said it was a challenge coin, he sort of reacted like "Yeah...sure it is...") -- I began to attempt to explain what it was...then I stopped mid-sentence and said"


----------



## peekay331 (Dec 1, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*



edakoppo said:


> Problem is that Tasers for the most part don't work except on people with heart conditions, where they work only too well. The last time I flew (before 9/11) the airport screeners were low-wage ESL nitwits, but I flew with a sub-3" PE Delica and was a threat to no one, but managed to open my bag of peanuts without spraying them all over the cabin, and was not defenseless should anything have happened in either airport.
> 
> It is most unlikely that terrorists will use the same tactics again for their next strike, and far more likely that one will be the victim of a conventional crime entering or leaving the airport, for which defensive implements should be carried _on the body, not in checked luggage, from which they could be stolen either by TSA or baggage handlers_. TSA, being government agents, are covered under sovereign immunity. This means they can steal from you, harrass you, or do damn near anything else they want with impunity. They cannot be held legally liable for incorrect action or failure to take action. BTW, this goes for most agents of government, at any level, in most states. Read "Dial 911 and Die," available from JPFO, if you want the proof.


 i dont know where you're getting your information, but check out 42 u.s.c section 1983.


----------



## cyberhobo (Dec 1, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

Although, I haven't flown in many years, we (my family) would just flash our U.S. Diplomatic passports and get preferential treatment (no security check or searches).:devil:


----------



## lightplay22 (Dec 1, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

Good thing I don't fly and very good thing some jerk doesn't try to frisk my beautiful wife because he would be taking a life- flight, even if i didn't have a ball point pen!


----------



## zespectre (Dec 1, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*



cyberhobo said:


> Although, I haven't flown in many years, we (my family) would just flash our U.S. Diplomatic passports and get preferential treatment (no security check or searches).:devil:


 
Not anymore.


----------



## besafe2 (Dec 1, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

As I stated earlier I am an airline employee in a major hub. Last night I just spoke with one of the TSA leads(the only one I will even speak to as they are know nothing jerks) here is the scoop he gave me on flashlights:
The TSA has no offical policy on flashlights. Any flashlight that is large enough to be used as a weapon can not be taken thru security. The person will be givin the following options: Have some one else take the light for them, return it to the car themselves or go to their airline & see if they have a way to check it. If not they will have to surrender it to fly. He said the "larger"maglites would fall under the weapon catagory.
He said how bright a light is talking about the Surefires & similar have nothing to do with this but it is strickly if they consider it to be a weapon.
Little does he know that my mini-mag takes the place of my kubotan which is illegal to take thru security!
Hope this helps a little.


----------



## Stream (Dec 1, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*



edakoppo said:


> Problem is that Tasers for the most part don't work except on people with heart conditions, where they work only too well.



Where do you draw the conclusion that they don't work? They look pretty effective to me Police training clip

Taser/stun guns work by applying a high voltage, low amperage electrical charge to a persons body. This disrupts the small electrical signals in the attackers nervous system, sending conflicting signals to the muscles causing them to contract and depleting the body's energy. However this is completely harmless to the body since the amperage is so low. Not even a person with a pacemaker would be damaged by a stun gun.


----------



## Pellidon (Dec 1, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*



cslinger said:


> I have had issues with the TSA in the past. Most of the TSA employees I have experienced are unprofessional, seem undereducated and most certainly do not know their job. My latest run in with the TSA was when I was lucky enough to spend over an hour with them trying to explain to them just exactly what a wireless network adaptor for a laptop was and how exactly it was used. Until this trip I have yet to meet one who knows more about the regulations or even as much about them as I do.
> 
> As far as the flashlight I know a couple other folks who were relieved of their flashlights and no matter how much they protested never got them back.
> 
> ...




I fly about 25 or more trips per year as a customer service techie. It has gotten better but for the past year my toolkit (checked bag) is vandalized or things go missing (riiight) about four out of five trips. Everything is in clear plastic boxes in a foam fitted camera case. A real feat of organization that I am usually uncapable of otherwise.  They routinely forget to replace the foam inserts, causing the contents to get ratltled. They have left computer cables hanging out the kit and mangled them trying to close the lid. Latest trip my carbon form pen (rollerball as I carry Fountain pens for normal writing) went missing. They had to rummage through several boxes of stuff to find the bright orange pen. It is a cheapie, ten bucks, but it is the issue that fries my socks. 

As far as lights, it is the discretion of the inspectors to whether they are allowed. That little blurb is an out for allowing them to freelance whatever whim they desire. If it looks too long or club like, don't try to carry it on. If it is too bright forget it. 

The camera kit/toolbox gets inspected EVERY time. My suitcase almost never does. Why? they don't want to dive their hands in a bag of soiled clothes (eeewwwwww). 

All in all I have lost over $100 in personal and work related equipment due to loss of vandalisim. In the 17 years before them, no losses of any amount. Now they won't even process complaints. 

In the years of the TSA's existence I have had the pleasure of travelling to many forigen lands. The inspectors there have been efficient, and when they did not know how to repack my kit they asked me. And if they have went through my stuff in the baggage magnling area it shows no trace of their presence. Proof you can do a bang up security job and not be the 800 pound gorillia. 

in an unrelated sidebar: Why do I have to remove my laptop from my case and not my Pocket PC that does almost everything a laptop can plus has the capacity to add a mini CF harddrive, making it more laptop like? Doesn't bother me but I do get a chuckle out of that one.


----------



## edakoppo (Dec 1, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*



Stream said:


> Where do you draw the conclusion that they don't work? They look pretty effective to me Police training clip
> 
> Taser/stun guns work by applying a high voltage, low amperage electrical charge to a persons body. This disrupts the small electrical signals in the attackers nervous system, sending conflicting signals to the muscles causing them to contract and depleting the body's energy. However this is completely harmless to the body since the amperage is so low. Not even a person with a pacemaker would be damaged by a stun gun.



1) One of the main flaws is in your clip's title--note the word "training," which means "not under the adrenalized stress of a lethal encounter." In _training_, people succumb to all manner of things that just don't work in the street--like Aikido. Even pepper spray has successfully been negated in a test environment--people who were given a determined goal (to kill, to protect a doll simulating a baby, etc.) could function quite effectively despite having compromised vision and breathing--they were not stopped. This video is available at http://www.modernwarrior.com/infotaps.htm --it's #4 on the list. Anything you use in the street is less likely to work against a subject who is one of the "four D's": drunk, drugged, deranged, or determined--which encompasses the majority of attackers you're likely to face. At the very outset of the Rodney King incident (I do not recall if that part was recorded on video or not) was his being shot with a Taser twice, pulling out the darts, and continuing to advance on a female officer who was much smaller than he was. It has also been reported that the Tasering officer failed to hold down the trigger, but King was well above the legal limit for intoxication and thus "feeling no pain"--there is real meaning to that phrase.

2) There have been a number of fatalities in California alone with Tasers, and the company stock has suffered as a result. This has been all over the news. Also, San Jose has just had new guidelines for Taser use postponed--that also was in the news. Bear in mind also that your average scumbag is not in the best of health, be it from poor nutrition, drug use, or alcohol use--carotid artery plaques leading to strokes, and/or holding the choke too long were the main reasons police are no longer allowed to use carotid chokeholds.

3) Stun guns, including the most expensive of the lot, the Myotron (which are neither guns, nor do they usually stun) work on the same principle as Tasers, and have been widely proven ineffective in empirical testing--all you need do is search at Bladeforums or Self-Defense Forums for them.


----------



## edakoppo (Dec 1, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*



peekay331 said:


> i dont know where you're getting your information, but check out 42 u.s.c section 1983.



Under which there are few if any prosecutions. Lon Horiuchi committed murder of at least 1 unarmed person under the guise of law enforcement and not only has he not had a well-deserved lethal injection but he still walks free. Horiuchi killed Vicki Weaver for daring to stand near a window while nursing her baby at Ruby Ridge, and commanded a sniper team at Waco which probably killed others there.

Sovereign immunity existed as a precedent and in many cases as legislation long before this statute was enacted. As I said, read the book.


----------



## David_Campen (Dec 1, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*



> All in all I have lost over $100 in personal and work related equipment due to loss of vandalisim. In the 17 years before them, no losses of any amount. Now they won't even process complaints.


What do you mean they won't process complaints? Everyone needs to be filing complaints, if the TSA won't accept them then they should go to your congress people with an explanation that TSA doesn't process complaints. TSA needs to be abolished. I hear all these complaints but no one follows up and files a formal complaint. When the news asks TSA about all the complaints the TSA response is that they think they are pretty good because they don't get many complaints.


----------



## Stream (Dec 1, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

Edakoppo,

A taser doesn't rely on the ability to feel pain or discomfort, so it doesn't matter how determined the attacker is and whether they feel pain or not. The taser sends out electrical impulses that over-ride the brain. A pepper spray is more reliant on the attackers ability to experience pain or discomfort, I've seen drunks shrug off pepper spray (although they are still unable to keep their eyes open) but tasers pretty much drops anyone. Notice you said the officer tasering Rodney King failed to hold down the trigger, I can imagine the following scenario: King was tasered once and was knocked down, managed to get back up and was tasered again and at some point managed to tear off the darts. Drunks are likely to try and get up many times, but unless the person operating the taser is too inexperienced to maintain the advantage (like the officer you mentioned who failed to hold the trigger down) the taser remains an effective less-lethal weapon. 

Here's a couple of real-world examples of a taser gun effectively being used on very inebriated people

Clip 1
Clip 2

Notice that the drunks in these clips all try to get up multiple times, and unless the tasering was continued they likely would have succeeded in getting up and/or removing the darts.

Now as for the lethality of the taser, it has more to do with the shock of being tasered rather than the actual electric current -- like I said, the current would not even effect a pacemaker, for instance. However, it can be dangerous to a person who is not in good health; changes in the blood pressure/chemistry can result in a stroke, for example. It is also a matter of how many times a person is tasered. For example, a man was tasered 14 times in 4 minutes and died later on. People who are tasered two, maybe three times will most likely not die. Like the manufacturers usually state, it is a _less_ leathal weapon. 

We do not know enough about the effects of tasers to say anything for certain, nor am I advocating the use of tasers in all situations. For instance, a woman posing no threat but who didn't comply with the officers command to get out of the car immediately was tasered. This, to me, is excessive. Like a pepper spray (there have been deaths from police strength pepper spray as well), tasers should only be used when someone poses an immediate physical threat. But one thing that is beyond dispute is that a properly working taser used correctly will have a knock-down effect on attackers, no matter how drunk or determined they are. Given the option of using a gun or a taser on for instance on an attacker pulling a machete or knife, which would you rather the police use in such a situation (given that you care about safely incapacitating the attacker with minimal damage to all persons involved)?


----------



## 4sevens (Dec 1, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

You can never be too careful with transporting lights. I always pack them
into my check in luggage... Any reason could be the cause of confiscation.
Consider, the scalloped edges of the bezels of various lights. What about
the clips... plus the energy density in the lithium cells could be a reason.
It's pretty much subjective... if the people you go through don't think you're
sober enough you can be stopped.

Here is a hint... If you can part with your light for the duration of the flight,
just pack it into your check in. If you're afraid of someone taking it, well
be smart. Hide it a pocket in a pair of pants. Noone casually rooting through
your bag will come upon it hidden away like that. Thats what I do


----------



## edakoppo (Dec 1, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*



Stream said:


> Edakoppo,
> 
> A taser doesn't rely on the ability to feel pain or discomfort, so it doesn't matter how determined the attacker is and whether they feel pain or not. The taser sends out electrical impulses that over-ride the brain. A pepper spray is more reliant on the attackers ability to experience pain or discomfort, I've seen drunks shrug off pepper spray (although they are still unable to keep their eyes open) but tasers pretty much drops anyone. Notice you said the officer tasering Rodney King failed to hold down the trigger, I can imagine the following scenario: King was tasered once and was knocked down, managed to get back up and was tasered again and at some point managed to tear off the darts. Drunks are likely to try and get up many times, but unless the person operating the taser is too inexperienced to maintain the advantage (like the officer you mentioned who failed to hold the trigger down) the taser remains an effective less-lethal weapon.
> 
> ...



I said the officer in the King incident was reported to have failed to hold down the trigger--that does not mean that was the case. The reason King was hit as many times as he was, was that he was told to prone out for cuffing and instead kept bracing to get back up, and that was clearly shown on the tape. BTW, your first clip is all done incompetently, off-camera, and damn near anything could have happened to the suspect. Further, the officer allowed the subject to chase him around without first trying pepper spray or even drawing a baton in a defensive posture--assuming this was even done for real. Whatever the supposed intent of the Taser, King and others can and have withstood it. People can and have withstood multiple impacts with beanbag rounds, batons--and for that matter, bullets--without immediate effect. Stopping power, even from rifle rounds, is not an absolute. 

Pepper spray can cause pain but is intended to reduce the ability of the subject to breathe. People with respiratory conditions are therefore more likely to have a serious problem with it. 



Stream said:


> Now as for the lethality of the taser, it has more to do with the shock of being tasered rather than the actual electric current -- like I said, the current would not even effect a pacemaker, for instance. However, it can be dangerous to a person who is not in good health; changes in the blood pressure/chemistry can result in a stroke, for example. It is also a matter of how many times a person is tasered. For example, a man was tasered 14 times in 4 minutes and died later on. People who are tasered two, maybe three times will most likely not die. Like the manufacturers usually state, it is a _less_ leathal weapon.



Less-lethal or less-than-lethal are legal weasel-ese for "we never said it wouldn't kill." That is strictly a liability issue for the manufacturer. 



Stream said:


> We do not know enough about the effects of tasers to say anything for certain, nor am I advocating the use of tasers in all situations. For instance, a woman posing no threat but who didn't comply with the officers command to get out of the car immediately was tasered. This, to me, is excessive. Like a pepper spray (there have been deaths from police strength pepper spray as well), tasers should only be used when someone poses an immediate physical threat. But one thing that is beyond dispute is that a properly working taser used correctly will have a knock-down effect on attackers, no matter how drunk or determined they are. Given the option of using a gun or a taser on for instance on an attacker pulling a machete or knife, which would you rather the police use in such a situation (given that you care about safely incapacitating the attacker with minimal damage to all persons involved)?



The effectiveness of Tasers is indeed in dispute, hence my original statement. Police have the responsibility to contain the situation (although given sovereign immunity, they have no duty to protect any individual or family, and are not liable for incorrect action or lack of action). They are given latitude that the normal citizen does not have, namely to escalate the force level in order to contain the situation. Accordingly, a suspect armed with any form of weapon is subject to being drawn down upon and possibly shot depending on their level of compliance. 

I do not feel the Taser, the beanbag gun, sticky foam, or any other such nonsense tools have a place in the force continuum. Pepper spray is for a lower level of threat, and still leaves an officer further options to escalate if needed. I see nothing wrong with holding an armed suspect at gunpoint and trying to talk him down, even if that takes hours. If the suspect becomes an immediate threat, however, he needs to be shot with the most ballistically effective round available. This should be a shotgun round, or if there is a hostage, a rifle round. If one round fails, then the process should be repeated as necessary to terminate the threat as quickly as possible. The primary aim is minimizing damage to innocent persons, and the subject who poses a lethal threat rates a hell of a lot lower--as in close to zero.


----------



## greenLED (Dec 1, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

Can we please get back on topic? You guys are welcome to take Taser stuff to another thread, the UG, BF, USN, etc. if you'd like. [/rant]

(BTW, I've seen Taser's not working on a very agitated, violent, and intoxicated individual.) [/highjack]


----------



## cy (Dec 1, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

sorry if this has been asked, tried reading thru all threads but ran out of steam. 

has any carried an Surefire M6 with M6R pack on an airplane yet? M6R pack looks a possible explosive 

already purchased tickets for shot show and would like to take few lights via carryon


----------



## Stream (Dec 1, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*



greenLED said:


> (BTW, I've seen Taser's not working on a very agitated, violent, and intoxicated individual.) [/highjack]


Whatever happened to staying on topic  In response to your statement, there are any number of reasons that a taser can fail. Just like there are any number of reasons why a gun can jam. But as long as both of the electrodes connect and the voltage and amperage on the taser is adequate then it will work no matter how agitated or intoxicated the attacker is. 

Edakoppo wrote:


> I said the officer in the King incident was reported to have failed to hold down the trigger--that does not mean that was the case. The reason King was hit as many times as he was, was that he was told to prone out for cuffing and instead kept bracing to get back up, and that was clearly shown on the tape.



The reason he wasn't cooperating with the request to put his arms out for cuffing is probably same reason that the guy in the second clip was unable to comply with this command, because he was too depleted by the tasering.



> BTW, your first clip is all done incompetently, off-camera, and damn near anything could have happened to the suspect.



Like what? You clearly saw the result, namely the suspect trying repeatedly to get up after being tasered -- much the same as Rodney King was trying to get back up. However the officer continued to taser the suspect and kept him in check until backup arrived.

The footage was filmed by the suspects wife, and I'm guessing that she wasn't exactly a professional -- nor do I think the Rodney King tape was filmed by a professional 



> People can and have withstood multiple impacts with beanbag rounds, batons--and for that matter, bullets--without immediate effect. Stopping power, even from rifle rounds, is not an absolute.



You're right, there are no absolutes, but there are still a few obvious things I can point out to you regarding your conclusion: a bullet effects the immediate area that it hits, and the effect depends on how vital that area is. Same goes for batons and beanbags. A taser on the other hand (provided the darts or electrodes connect properly) will effect the entire body causing all the muscles to fire at once, depleting the body's energy. Now, if by withstanding a taser you mean the attacker will be able to get up and recover, then you are correct -- and the clip I provided shows you exactly this. If he gets back up, all you have to do is give him another zap.



> Less-lethal or less-than-lethal are legal weasel-ese for "we never said it wouldn't kill." That is strictly a liability issue for the manufacturer.



That's fairly obvious, but your whole point is moot since that was never in dispute.



> I do not feel the Taser, the beanbag gun, sticky foam, or any other such nonsense tools have a place in the force continuum. Pepper spray is for a lower level of threat, and still leaves an officer further options to escalate if needed. I see nothing wrong with holding an armed suspect at gunpoint and trying to talk him down, even if that takes hours. If the suspect becomes an immediate threat, however, he needs to be shot with the most ballistically effective round available. This should be a shotgun round, or if there is a hostage, a rifle round. If one round fails, then the process should be repeated as necessary to terminate the threat as quickly as possible.



You're making some pretty impressive leaps and generalizations there. First you say that you don't feel that non-lethal weapons have any place in the "force continuum", then you summarize that pepper spray is for a lower level of threat and that the officer can then escalate the level of force if the situation requires it. This is basically textbook instructions for dealing with low level or escalating threats, thus non-lethal alternatives do have their place. Simply trying to dismiss them out of hand because they are not 100% effective is unreasonable. It's not as if guns are completely reliable either, guns can easily jam. 

The fact of the matter is that non-lethal weapons have saved probably thousands of lives where lethal force could be avoided. For instance, police in Sweden, Gothenburg opened fire on rioters during the EU summit there, killing one protester and wounding others. For some stupid reason police in Sweden are not allowed to use tear gass, so this left the officers with no non-lethal alternatives to their side arms. Lethal force was avoided in the similar riots in both France and even Seattle where police used tear gas and water cannons.

Not all situations are as cut'n dried as you make it seem, just because you see Clint Eastwood successfully talk down a suspect with a 44 Magnum in Dirty Harry doesn't mean it will work that way in real life. There will be many situations where a suspect can not be talked down and where lethal force should be avoided, having a go-between from nothing to lethal is very necessary. And there is a very real need to continue to develop such technologies. 



> The primary aim is minimizing damage to innocent persons, and the subject who poses a lethal threat rates a hell of a lot lower--as in close to zero.


Then why all the concern over the lethality of tasers?


----------



## nethiker (Dec 2, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*



:shrug:

Cy,

I didn't hear anyone carrying a M6-R on a plane. I wouldn't risk getting it confiscated. Actually after hearing about everyone's terrible experiences with the TSA, I'm not sure I'd risk transporting the M6.


----------



## edakoppo (Dec 2, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

To all: Sorry for topic drift--this is my last statement on this topic. 



Stream said:


> The reason he wasn't cooperating with the request to put his arms out for cuffing is probably same reason that the guy in the second clip was unable to comply with this command, because he was too depleted by the tasering.



King was actively disobeying commands based on the testimony of the involved officers--he refused to put his arms flat out and kept positioning himself to pop back up by putting his arms in the push-up position. Since the taser darts were no longer in him, triggering the taser again would have been a waste of time. I'll happily admit that LAPD was grossly negligent by eliminating all joint locks and comealong holds from their PR-24 curriculum. PR-24s are excellent for such techinques, but at the cost of added training time and complexity. The straight baton can be more easily taught for impact and restraint, but the PR-24 is "trendy."



Stream said:


> The footage was filmed by the suspects wife, and I'm guessing that she wasn't exactly a professional -- nor do I think the Rodney King tape was filmed by a professional



I never said the King footage was shot by a professional. I just said there was no conclusive evidence demonstrated on the first clip you linked to, except for the possible incompetence of the arresting officer.



Stream said:


> You're right, there are no absolutes, but there are still a few obvious things I can point out to you regarding your conclusion: a bullet effects the immediate area that it hits, and the effect depends on how vital that area is. Same goes for batons and beanbags. A taser on the other hand (provided the darts or electrodes connect properly) will effect the entire body causing all the muscles to fire at once, depleting the body's energy. Now, if by withstanding a taser you mean the attacker will be able to get up and recover, then you are correct -- and the clip I provided shows you exactly this. If he gets back up, all you have to do is give him another zap.



Bullets, especially shotgun and rifle rounds, also affect surrounding tissue via hydrostatic shock. This is the reason JFK's head exploded from the final bullet shot at him--overpressure that the skull could not contain. Your point about tasers is correct assuming the guy goes down in the first place. 



Stream said:


> You're making some pretty impressive leaps and generalizations there. First you say that you don't feel that non-lethal weapons have any place in the "force continuum", then you summarize that pepper spray is for a lower level of threat and that the officer can then escalate the level of force if the situation requires it. This is basically textbook instructions for dealing with low level or escalating threats, thus non-lethal alternatives do have their place. Simply trying to dismiss them out of hand because they are not 100% effective is unreasonable. It's not as if guns are completely reliable either, guns can easily jam.



I didn't say less-lethal tools had no place in the continuum. I said tasers, beanbag guns, sticky foam and similar gimmicky garbage have no place in the force continuum, with one exception to be pointed out a little way down. 



Stream said:


> The fact of the matter is that non-lethal weapons have saved probably thousands of lives where lethal force could be avoided. For instance, police in Sweden, Gothenburg opened fire on rioters during the EU summit there, killing one protester and wounding others. For some stupid reason police in Sweden are not allowed to use tear gass, so this left the officers with no non-lethal alternatives to their side arms. Lethal force was avoided in the similar riots in both France and even Seattle where police used tear gas and water cannons.



Maybe so, but that's my fundamental point, which as you've hinted, I did not make clear. Lethal force engagements (to include hijacking, which was the first mention of this taser nonsense) are best solved by lethal force and/or negotiation if possible and feasible. Doing otherwise puts the innocent and the police at risk.



Stream said:


> Not all situations are as cut'n dried as you make it seem, just because you see Clint Eastwood successfully talk down a suspect with a 44 Magnum in Dirty Harry doesn't mean it will work that way in real life. There will be many situations where a suspect can not be talked down and where lethal force should be avoided, having a go-between from nothing to lethal is very necessary. And there is a very real need to continue to develop such technologies.



If the suspect cannot be talked down and poses a lethal threat, there is no reason to avoid lethal force except to avoid litigation and bad PR from a news audience that will Monday-morning-quarterback that which they do not understand. Lethal force cannot nor should it be used to solve every defensive or police problem, but in the vast majority of lethal force situations, is the only viable solution. Further, I never said such technologies should not be developed. The failures of beanbag guns, tasers, and sticky foam clearly prove that further development is needed, again with the aim of developing less-lethal tools for use in less-lethal situations. 



Stream said:


> Then why all the concern over the lethality of tasers?



Again, something I failed to make clear, and thanks for pointing this out. I don't care except for the general public's uproar about them. If they were designed and sold as lethal force and proved viable for that role, then I say tase away when presented with a lethal force threat, but that would take them out of the less-lethal realm. FWIW, two of the best less-lethal tools were removed from police (and for that matter, non-police) hands long ago, namely blackjacks and saps. Either of them, the vast majority of the time, ended problems with minimal injury to the suspect as long as the user got training and did not use too much force in head strikes, and were excellent for causing immediate muscle dysfunction when striking arm or leg muscles. The cop in your second clip would have done well to nail the suspect in one or both biceps, which would have been easy to do given the early tie-up, and most likely would have gotten the suspect in a cuffing mood a lot earlier. FWIW, we're clearly never going to agree on this as we have clearly different values as regard suspects who present lethal threats, but thanks for the debate.


----------



## The-David (Dec 2, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

I know that I will NEVER get on a plane or go aneywere that my saftey is in the hands of a SECURITY GURD.

I have wrocked securty for the past 8 years (going to school full time the past 3)...


----------



## pizzaman (Dec 2, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

_Good thing I don't fly and very good thing some jerk doesn't try to frisk my beautiful wife because he would be taking a life- flight, even if i didn't have a ball point pen!_

LP22,

Unfortunately, within a few hours of your heroic demonstration you would have new accommodations (small cement room, bars on windows, a new roommate named "Bubba"), a new wardrobe (stylish orange jumpers), a new nick-name (sweet pants or sugar britches) and having your fresh touché traded for smokes (Bubba likes to smoke after sex).

I feel your pain, but I think it is best if you continue to boycott flying.

TSA (Terror Sanctioned Americans)

TR


----------



## sween1911 (Dec 2, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*



4sevens said:


> You can never be too careful with transporting lights. I always pack them
> into my check in luggage... Any reason could be the cause of confiscation.
> Consider, the scalloped edges of the bezels of various lights. What about
> the clips... plus the energy density in the lithium cells could be a reason.
> ...



Better yet, and I say this with complete seriousness, wrap anything like that in a pile of underwear. People just don't feel right rooting through someone else's underwear. Even better, in a pile of dirty laundry on the return trip.


----------



## TheFlash (Dec 2, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

Regarding being able to ship an item home to prevent confiscation:
Last time I was in the San Diego airport after visiting family and my future in-laws, I saw a small kiosk near the entrance to the security checkpoint line.
There was a receptacle with special envelopes and directions on how you could mail a package to yourself. The postage rates were quite high, but it was a self-service kiosk and could be a good last resort and prevent TSA from confiscating an SAK, scissors, etc.

Also, I always fly with a Surefire G2 in my backpack and I've never had any issues whatsoever.

Regards,
Mike


----------



## Jumpmaster (Dec 2, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*



TheFlash said:


> Last time I was in the San Diego airport after visiting family and my future in-laws, I saw a small kiosk near the entrance to the security checkpoint line.



When was this? Recently? I saw a show where they said they didn't have those anymore because someone could just as well put a bomb in one of those and blow up the terminal...

JM-99


----------



## TheFlash (Dec 2, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

Jumpmaster,
Yes this was recently. It was last month (November '05).

It's a rather small receptacle, so I don't know how successful a person would be sticking a rather narrow envelope/package through the opening...

If you're in San Diego airport, check it out. It's up against the airport outside wall just opposite to the security checkpoint entrance.

Regards,
Mike

P.S. Besides, if a terrorist really wants to blow up the airport, there are SO MANY public-accessible areas in airports to hide explosives aside from a small mail receptacle.


----------



## Cornkid (Dec 2, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

There was something in the news yesterday that mentioned a note being found with something of the order of "Al-Queda is hear" written on it. 

-tom


----------



## Jumpmaster (Dec 2, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*



TheFlash said:


> It's a rather small receptacle, so I don't know how successful a person would be sticking a rather narrow envelope/package through the opening...



Plastic explosive is easily molded...I bet a bad guy could easily put at least 1lb of C4 in there...or several in different packages.

Surprising they have these...don't get me wrong -- I think it's great that there is a way to keep the TSA from stealing our stuff. But I can see why the concern over the drop boxes.

JM-99


----------



## greenLED (Dec 2, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

I just remembered, back in the 70/80's (after a bunch of those highjackings and plane bombings), people were not allowed to carry knives, etc. on planes. I remember my dad's SAK getting confiscated while going through the security check point. What they did was tag it, put it in a "safe" location on board, and it was waiting for my dad as we left the plane. 

I wonder why they can't do just that now days? I'm assuming plastic explosives were not as developed (???) back then, but nowdays they could put all "confiscated" items in a safe box, do thorough explosive scan of all the items (doesn't take long with current sniffers), put the safe box on board, and hand back the items to their owners once they reach their destination.

In my mind, as long as all these items are out of people's hands while on board, and they do not contain explosives or corrosive materials (which could still be contained within the safe box), this shouldn't be a big issue. Why can't we implement a solution like this? It wouldn't get rid of the security scans, but it would help people get their property back. I mean, how many airports have a PO to mail stuff to yourself?

Anyway... [/rant]


----------



## Jumpmaster (Dec 2, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*



greenLED said:


> I wonder why they can't do just that now days? I'm assuming plastic explosives were not as developed (???) back then, but nowdays they could put all "confiscated" items in a safe box, do thorough explosive scan of all the items (doesn't take long with current sniffers), put the safe box on board, and hand back the items to their owners once they reach their destination.



Yeah...like "gate-checking" them...That's a really good idea! The only thing I could see that might be a problem is the sheer number of flights they'd have to do this for...I mean they'd need a box for every different flight. I wish they would do that though...

JM-99


----------



## Lunal_Tic (Dec 2, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

In Japan on domestic flights they would just put you items in a bag with you're flight info and give it back on the other end. It worked out kind of like duty free shopping. It's been a while since I've flown domestic here so I don't know if they still do it though.

-LT


----------



## nzgunnie (Dec 2, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*



edakoppo said:


> Under which there are few if any prosecutions. Lon Horiuchi committed murder of at least 1 unarmed person under the guise of law enforcement and not only has he not had a well-deserved lethal injection but he still walks free. Horiuchi killed Vicki Weaver for daring to stand near a window while nursing her baby at Ruby Ridge, and commanded a sniper team at Waco which probably killed others there.
> 
> Sovereign immunity existed as a precedent and in many cases as legislation long before this statute was enacted. As I said, read the book.



You need to get your facts straight buddy.

Horiuchi was trying to kill an armed criminal who was shooting at an overflying helicopter. The fact that the round killed Weaver was tragic, but it was not murder. Further, the HRT snipers did not kill anyone at Waco. It is certainly true that neither situation was well managed, but at the end of the day, the decisions that lead to the deaths were made by, in the Ruby ridge case, the Weavers, and in the case of Waco, the Branch Davidians.

Casting aspertions on the someones character from behind an anonymous screen name does you no credit. This is even more true when person in question is not likely to be here to defend themselves, when the peson has already answered those charges in court, and when the person in question happens to be someone who spent years in an organisation trying to ensure your safety.

End of rant.


----------



## GadgetTravel (Dec 3, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

I dont understand the continued concern with flashlights on planes by some here. Since Thanksgiving day I have flown NY-LA and back, NY-Dayton and back, NY to Lincoln, Neb and back and NY-STL and back. With me on all the flights, either in my hand carry bag or in a pocket of my jacket were a Surefire A2, Surefire E1L with two stage switch and beam shaper and an Eternalight. I also had a Surefire spares carrier and 6 Duracell CR123s in it. I usually travel with more lights than this but was trying to travel very light. Not a peep from TSA about the lights. Ive traveled with as many as 4 Surefires, an Eternalight, Streamlight Jr Lux, Inova T5, QIII, two Surefire spare carriers and a few others and not a word. Sorry, I just dont get it.


----------



## Pellidon (Dec 3, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*



David_Campen said:


> What do you mean they won't process complaints? Everyone needs to be filing complaints, if the TSA won't accept them then they should go to your congress people with an explanation that TSA doesn't process complaints. TSA needs to be abolished. I hear all these complaints but no one follows up and files a formal complaint. When the news asks TSA about all the complaints the TSA response is that they think they are pretty good because they don't get many complaints.



They quit processing complaints because they were swamped. The official line is that they were bearing the blame for the airline's baggage manglers losing things. 

A letter to my Senators got the canned response of " they are there to protect-blah-blah-blah" And COngress was the body that allows the TSA to not honor the damage they inflict because they were swamped with complaints as well.


----------



## cognitivefun (Dec 3, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*



GadgetTravel said:


> I dont understand the continued concern with flashlights on planes by some here. Since Thanksgiving day I have flown NY-LA and back, NY-Dayton and back, NY to Lincoln, Neb and back and NY-STL and back. With me on all the flights, either in my hand carry bag or in a pocket of my jacket were a Surefire A2, Surefire E1L with two stage switch and beam shaper and an Eternalight. I also had a Surefire spares carrier and 6 Duracell CR123s in it. I usually travel with more lights than this but was trying to travel very light. Not a peep from TSA about the lights. Ive traveled with as many as 4 Surefires, an Eternalight, Streamlight Jr Lux, Inova T5, QIII, two Surefire spare carriers and a few others and not a word. Sorry, I just dont get it.



I haven't had a problem either in numerous flights including international with sometimes 4 or 5 lights, lithium batteries, etc.


----------



## Stream (Dec 3, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*



> Bullets, especially shotgun and rifle rounds, also affect surrounding tissue via hydrostatic shock. This is the reason JFK's head exploded from the final bullet shot at him--overpressure that the skull could not contain.


Notice that I said _"the effect depends on how vital"_ the targeted area is. Of course a well placed head shot will kill instantly, but you were first arguing that guns and rifles don't have guaranteed stopping power -- the natural assumption here would be that the shots do not hit areas that would result in an instant kill.



> If the suspect cannot be talked down and poses a lethal threat, there is no reason to avoid lethal force except to avoid litigation and bad PR [... ]Lethal force cannot nor should it be used to solve every defensive or police problem, but in the vast majority of lethal force situations, is the only viable solution. Further, I never said such technologies should not be developed. The failures of beanbag guns, tasers, and sticky foam clearly prove that further development is needed, again with the aim of developing less-lethal tools for use in less-lethal situations.


It's funny how you can claim that lethal force is the only "viable" solution in the vast majority of lethal force situations and that tasers and beanbags have been failures without even so much as a single fact to back it up. In reality, the majority of situations where police normally would have used lethal force are not wild-west shootouts but are far more likely to involve scenarios like a drunk waving a broken bottle around or a disgruntled or mentally disturbed individual threatening people with a pair of scissors. In these situations the use of lethal force is excessive but, without the aid of less-lethal alternatives like tasers or beanbags, may become necessary. There's a reason why the number of lethal use of force cases have decreased dramatically in police departments that have deployed the use of tasers -- even dropping to zero in Miami, 2003. There are countless real world cases of tasers and beanbags being used to diffuse dangerous situations -- a suspect armed with a machine gun was knocked down by a beanbag in the UK. 

Tasers and beanbags have proven their use in the real world, and are by no means failures. Of course they're not perfect, and of course there is a need to continue to develop such technologies -- how else would technology evolve (including flashlights ). Nor are they 100% harmless, but the risk of serious injury from the use of a taser is very low and, compared to the alternatives, is among the safest means to incapacitate someone.

I think the following excerpt from an article in AMERICAN-STATESMAN Sunday, November 28, 2004 sums up the real world value of the taser:

_Austin police officers have been given new tools to defuse dangerous situations, and few have been as effective as the Taser, which can briefly incapacitate a person with a burst of 50,000 volts.

Tasers shoot two electric probes as far as 21 feet. Wires carry current that stuns the person by interfering with communications between the brain and the central nervous system, resulting in a temporary loss of voluntary muscle control.

Last year, the police department had 25 Tasers, or one for every patrol shift. Now, each officer on patrol has one of the bright yellow devices.

Officers have used Tasers 246 times so far this year, compared with 31 times during the previous six years.

"I can't tell you how important the Tasers have been," Police Chief Stan Knee said. "They're the reason fewer officers have been injured, and they're the reason fewer citizens have been injured."

Officers have reported 302 injuries to suspects so far this year, well below the average rate of 574 injured suspects annually from 1998 to 2003. Likewise, officer injuries dropped from about 325 a year before to 177 so far this year. [...] Assistant Police Chief Rick Coy said the device has saved lives. One man who waved a gun at an officer in the hallway of a bar was stunned instead of shot. So was Jackson Fan Chun Ngai, who police said came at them with a meat cleaver as he was arrested on a charge of killing a University of Texas music professor._



> FWIW, we're clearly never going to agree on this as we have clearly different values as regard suspects who present lethal threats, but thanks for the debate.



It actually started out as a debate over whether stun guns work -- I believe I've presented a solid argument backed up by facts in that regard -- and it then sidetracked to what level of force is warranted in situations where suspects present a potentially lethal threat. On that we likely will not agree, but I'd think we would both agree that it is a good thing when the number of people (officers, suspects and bystanders) killed or injured in confrontations with the police is decreased as a result of more frequent use of less-lethal weapons. Anyway, thanks in return for the debate,

Stream


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Dec 3, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*



Stream said:


> One man who waved a gun at an officer in the hallway of a bar was stunned instead of shot. So was Jackson Fan Chun Ngai, who police said came at them with a meat cleaver as he was arrested on a charge of killing a University of Texas music professor.[/i]Stream



These sound like two people that DESPERATELY needed shooting. Which is what I SERIOUSLY DISLIKE about Stun Guns... 

The Gene Pool needs a little Chlorine now and again! How are they going to win the Darwin Award????

OH! And by the way... I don't fly much. Last time was 11/01. I had to take my shoes off, I was wanded at the gate etc.

WERE I to fly again (ain't many places I desire to go that you can't drive to on nice interstate highways) I believe I'd take a silly Dorcy 1AAA or something like that, and perhaps a Brinkmann Maxfire or such. Because it would be easy and cheap to replace them IF the Baboons made off with 'em.


----------



## pizzaman (Dec 3, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

_"These sound like two people that DESPERATELY needed shooting."_

Actually, this has been medically proven to be true. After many years of real-life testing, and exhaustive experimentation on the streets, it has been determined that most criminals suffer from extreme lead deficiency (Hypo-leademia).

Treatment consists of at least a single dose of 125gr copper jacketed lead pills. The copper coating is used to ensure the lead reaches vital organs where it can do the most good. Special syringes (manufactured by companies such as Smith & Wesson and Sturm Ruger), are used for direct cranial injection of the medication. 

A prescription is not needed and criminals are also encouraged to self medicate via oral administration. It is crucial that treatment be administered immediately after criminality is confirmed. 

If applied properly, a single dose is effective. In those rare instances that a cure is not reached after one dose, simply re-apply as necessary till desired results are achieved.

Side effects may include: headache, incontinence, nausea, vomiting, a bloody mess, and less crime.

TR :devil:


----------



## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Dec 3, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

 

Man I have TEARS from reading that!

Great Minds think alike eh?


----------



## tvodrd (Dec 3, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

ROFLMAO! 

Larry


----------



## SuperNinja (Dec 4, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*



bwaites said:


> (Though I still haven't figured out a good reason for removing my shoes!)


Here is the reason:
http://stlscreener.com/passinfo.htm

And another:
http://www.agrussell.com/knives/production/a_through_d/a_g_russell_knives/straight_knives/a_g_russell_cia_letter_opener_when_ordered_with_another_item.html


----------



## wuyeah (Dec 4, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

I went to a Federal Building today. They scan it, and says "You got a flashlight in your bag, take it out and let me see it." I took the L2 out. The exame it and ask me "why you carry a flashlight?" I answer them "I was afraid the elevator will get stuck. I am afraid of dark." They laugh a little. and let me go.

Funny thing is....I had a Swiss army knife attach on my keychain that they have no problem with :huh2: 

I am really confused that they just want to see my light or they really NEED to see my light. 

Don't get it. Its a flashlight, its not a death beam.


----------



## dano (Dec 4, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

Please, stay on topic.
NO more Waco or Ruby Ridge stuff, etc etc...

--dan


----------



## Pellidon (Dec 7, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

I just returned from a trip. Several lights in my carryon or on my person. No issues what so ever. 

My Opalec modded light has been the only thing they have had to further inspect recently. I guess a flashlight tube with electronics on the head can confuse the un illuminated.


----------



## zespectre (Dec 7, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

I also just returned from a trip from Washington, DC to Grand Forks, ND and then back a few days later.

Along with the usual travel gear, digital camera, and a laptop bag full of equipment I also carried the following items...
-Surefire 6P
-Surefire carrier with 6 cells and one spare p-61 lamp assembly
-Dorcy super 1 watt 1xCR123A
-River Rock 2xAAA (in store packaging, it was a gift and only went one way)

From DC headed out there were no issues at all. Returning from Grand Forks I had moved the spare battery carrier from the checked luggage to the laptop bag and they opened the bag for inspection and asked me what "that part" (the spare lamp assembly) was. Grand Forks TSA also made me open up, re-assemble, and turn on the Dorcy 1xCR123A light because it "looked really funny" on the X-Ray.

This time around everyone was very professional and skillful and everything was cleared quickly. The showed me the screen and I have to say that the Dorcy 1xCR123A does look REALLY weird on X-Ray so I don't blame them for wanting to check it out.


----------



## USARSHOE (Dec 7, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

Just got back from flying back and forth to Disney with the family, had no problems or questions from TSA about the Fenix I was carrying with me. 

You would also be amazed at the amount of use the light got while in the theme parks. Traveling with a 5 y/o and a 5 m/o, having a light on you at all times while in darkened out areas is a tremendous asset.


----------



## GadgetTravel (Dec 8, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

Well, Im doing an experiment. Im going on currently on a trip. I have with me:

1 Streamlight Jr. Luxeon and 4 spare rechargeable NiCads
1 Eternalight Elite 4x Max
1 Surefire E1L with twostage tailcap and diffuser
1 Surefire A2
1 Petzl Tac Tikka headlamp
1 Surefire sparescarrier with 6 Duracell Cr123s

Left Tuesday from JFK to LHR. No problems with the lights.

Currently in London. 

Leaving early tomorrow morning London time for India. Lots of flights between now and our return to the States on Dec 26. I'll let people know what happens in terms of the lights.


----------



## Arkayne (Dec 8, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

Hrrrrm, I'm leaving to Vancouver in a few weeks and will set up my uncles Home Theater gear. I'll have a few spools of speaker wire and component cables in my backpack. Do you think they'll let it pass? lol

Gaaawd, I'm in for a rough trip.

I'll have my A2 with me, do I pack it in my carry-on bag, keep it with me, or stuff it in the check-in? What's the concensus?


----------



## prof (Dec 8, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

from personal experience: either pack the wires in checked baggage (will be checked, probably), or take in carryone and REMOVE for xray. Better yet, call and ask. They can probably answer the questions for you. Might even just ship it to your destination (fed ex, whatever)--I've done that a few times.

My most recent experience involved a cable laptop lock in a carryon. Be sure to remove them! The screener didn't search my bag after I told him what was in it--but he sure looked closely!

Oh, never take a full size stapler, either. I did that years ago. A bunch of guys started toward me, and they asked to inspect. When I agreed they looked relieved. The person pulled the stapler out, grinned, and said loudly "oh, a stapler." The guys moving toward me stopped, turned, and left...

Let us know how the trip goes, esp. with the speaker wire...


----------



## GadgetTravel (Dec 9, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

Okay. Just went through security and am waiting for our flight. No questions about the flashlights at Heathrow Terminal 4 while checking in for an international flight on British Air. 

I'll post after my next check in. Off to Madras for now.


----------



## 2ifbyC (Dec 10, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*



wuyeah said:


> "why you carry a flashlight?"


 
"To illuminate that dark suspicion of yours"


----------



## GadgetTravel (Dec 14, 2005)

*Through another one okay, then busted*

No problems on my flight from Chennai to New Delhi. Fairly thorough security at the Chennai airport but no problems with the lights.

But then yesterday I got busted for one of the lights. We were in Agra and going on a tour of the Taj Mahal. Our guide told us no phones, food, or cigarettes were allowed but he didnt mention lights. So we got there and I had an E1L with a diffuser and two stage tailswitch in my pocket. The security was very professional. There is an army barricks on the grounds and they do the security. A soldier in a flak vest with an assault rifle at the opening of the security lines. They separate men from woman with the woman behind a screen and each person is physically frisked by one of the soldiers. They found the light and asked what it was. I told them and the senior soldier on the screening line came over and looked at it. He said it was okay. Then he picked it up and looked at it some more while I was getting frisked more. Finally he asked me if I had a guide. I told him I did and he told me to get him and bring him over. I complied and he told me to give the light to the guide which I also did and then he said something to the guide in their native language. The guide then told me he would check the light outside and I could get it back when I left. So that all happened including getting it back.

After I got it back I asked about it. Others had flashlights inside, our guide borrowed one from someone inside (for a small fee) to show us how some of the stones in the inlaid work in the marble, as well as the marble itself were translucent. The guide told me that the soldiers thought the flashlight was "too hard" and could be used to pry some of the semiprecious stones that were used for in inlays out of the marble. They are obviously extremely sensitive to that so they dont let anything near it that can be at. They even make you wear little disposable paper shoe covers to walk up on the platform around the building itself and inside. So I have to agree with them that it probably wasnt a good thing to let near the building.


----------



## GadgetTravel (Dec 16, 2005)

*Once again no problems*

Took the flashlights through security at New Delhi airport. Actually through security twice. First time was the regular sercurity at the international terminal. That was X-ray and no problems. Then since we were flying to Sri Lanka and they have security issues, in terms of a pretty active terror organization there, they had a separate security for our flight which was run by the airline at the gate. Each person frisked and each bag hand checked. The searcher pulled out the Streamlight Jr. Lux, looked at it and sent me on my way. So again, no problems.


----------



## fleegs (Dec 18, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

No problems flying from Indiana to Pennsylvania and back. I took a VB-16, HD45, Aleph3, LionCub, McLux PD, lots of batteries, and an Orb Raw. I carried all of them with me onto the plane. I also packed an EL QuadStar in my checked bag. As a matter of fact, my Orb Raw made it through in my pocket. I forgot to take it out and when I was putting stuff back into my pocket I realized that I never took out the Raw. And that it did not set off the detector. I did not try it on the way back though. I got no questions for anything in either airport.


rob


----------



## CLHC (Dec 18, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*



Arkayne said:


> I'll have my A2 with me, do I pack it in my carry-on bag, keep it with me, or stuff it in the check-in? What's the concensus?



Keep the SureFire Aviator on your person. Also like what Prof said, if possible, ship the spooled wires and cables ahead of you. Just a thought, that's all.


----------



## GadgetTravel (Dec 20, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

No problems with the lights, but some internet issues so I am just not getting back online, several flights in the interim.

No problems at Columbo airport in Sri Lanka. Again, like going into Sri Lanka there were two sets of security screens, one going into the building and then one as you went to the gate.

No problem at Bangkok airport, single screen, very thorough and professional. 

No problems at Siem Reap, Cambodia airport. Two screenings again, one going into the airport building and one after immigration and before you get to your gate. I didnt realize that the first screening was there until I walked right into it. I had been carrying the A2 in my pocket while climbing around the temples and it came in handy since some of the passageways were pretty dark. But I NEVER carry it on me when I go through security. This time, since I didnt realize the first screen was there I still had it in my pocket so I had to put it in the basket and send it through. No problems. On the second screen I had put it in my backpack before going through. 

I always (well, unless Im surprised  ) put everything in my backpack or jacket pocket. I never put loose stuff in the baskets. So nothing metal is on my person. This includes wallet, watch, flashlight, keys, cellphones, etc. Everything in the backpack or a jacket pocket before I get the the screen. I dont want loose items to get lost or walk off or get a lot of attention and time wasted.


----------



## Navck (Dec 20, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

What if one of the TSA people was a flashaholic.. Big time weird results


----------



## Warhippo (Dec 21, 2005)

*Re: Flying With a Flashlight UPDATE*

I've had no problems to date carrying a torch on international flights but then the rules are inconsistent at best.

Example. I can't carry a 1" penknife but I can take unopened glass or metal containers of babyfood or even 2 litre glass bottles. Go figure.

When taking a shotgun to Morocco, the Moroccan authorities acted with complete professionalism - correct paperwork, adequate handling facilities, etc. When my father gets back to Gatwick airport, he can't find the shotgun anywhere. Eventually he finds it on the baggage conveyor belt. How's that for British security.

Even 20 years ago when I had a knife confiscated on an international flight, it wasn't returned to me until I was leaving the airport. Crazy.

I wonder if I could get on a flight with my 6D cell Maglite?

I think not : )


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## GadgetTravel (Dec 24, 2005)

*Three more security screens today.*

It should have only been two but a flight was delayed so they sent us out to rebook on another flight, then changed their mind and sent us back. In any case, all of the lights went through security twice in Hanoi with no problems. All went through, again in carry on bags once in Saigon, again no problems. 

Sure glad I have them too. The A2 has come in real handy while travelling. Used it several times tonight to read various switches and controls on the walls of our hotel room.


----------



## GadgetTravel (Dec 25, 2005)

*Once again no problems*

Went through security in Hong Kong for our trip back to New York. Again, no problems. Currently in the Cathay Pacific lounge in Hong Kong, nice of them to have free wireless. Waiting for our flight to board. That should wrap up my little experiment. No problems with 10 flights in 8 countries. 

Merry Christmas everyone, its over already here, it's Monday morning already, but you in the States should have a few hours of the day left.


----------



## P7rancher (Jan 3, 2006)

*Surefire U2 and airplane carry-on*

Anyone know if you can carry on a U2 aboard the airplane?
Thanks P7rancher:thanks:


----------



## Gimpy00Wang (Jan 3, 2006)

*Re: Surefire U2 and airplane carry-on*

Can't see a reason why not.

- Chris


----------



## GadgetTravel (Jan 3, 2006)

*Re: Surefire U2 and airplane carry-on*

There is a lot of information on this. There are many threads on travel with flashlights. It should not be a problem, but do a search and you will find a huge amount of information about this and peoples experiences in flying with lights.


----------



## Flash_Gordon (Jan 3, 2006)

*Re: Surefire U2 and airplane carry-on*

Sure, the most I have ever had to do with a light is turn it on for them.


----------



## fieldops (Jan 3, 2006)

*Re: Surefire U2 and airplane carry-on*

I've had about the same experience with an SF M3T. Usually no questions, but I had to turn it on once. He then exclaimed "that's a nice light" and the other guy said yeah " A real nice light". That's when I grabbed it back (gently) and put it in my carry-on. :tsk:


----------



## greenLED (Jan 3, 2006)

*Re: Surefire U2 and airplane carry-on*

I don't see why not


----------



## CobraMan (Jan 4, 2006)

*Re: Surefire U2 and airplane carry-on*

I have taken my U2 on 2 trips to Texas and 1 to Canada without as much as a second look or question from the folks doing the inspections.

Good Luck,
Tim


----------



## AtomSphere (Jan 4, 2006)

*Re: Surefire U2 and airplane carry-on*

I've taken an Longer than SF M4 SF light. No problems. I was a bit worried about them conviscating my lithum batteries but it passed through inspection without any problems.


----------



## my name is fake (Jan 4, 2006)

*Re: Surefire U2 and airplane carry-on*

quick question:

what abt those with combatbezel, esp M3T-CB? or even the E2D?

do the airport security label them as "sharp & dangerous" object?


----------



## AtomSphere (Jan 4, 2006)

*Re: Surefire U2 and airplane carry-on*

I did carry the E2D with me on the carry on. No comments about it and i did it twice. But be warned, It does not gurantee your experience will be the same as mine!


----------



## *Bryan* (Jan 4, 2006)

*Re: Surefire U2 and airplane carry-on*

I have carried 2 of them, a HDS EDC and a McGizmo PDIII without a problem.


----------



## deranged_coder (Jan 4, 2006)

*Re: Surefire U2 and airplane carry-on*

I'm currently on vacation here in the Philippines and I had a bigger problem with the lights in my checked baggage than on my carry-ons.

I boarded the plane at SFO with a Gladius in my Proteus versipack, a Surefire U2 in my backpack, and a Surefire E2D (it had a F04 beamshaper on it, though, so the strike bezel was not immediately visible) in my laptop case. Had Surefire SC3 spares carriers in both my backpack and my laptop case. No issues whatsoever, I went through the TSA checkpoint with no fuss whatsoever. The officers were quite courteous and professional. Same with the next leg of my flight when I flew out from LAX.

However, the Surefire L1 (NIB) that was in my checked luggage which was supposed to be a gift for my girlfriend was not there in my checked luggage anymore when I de-planed in Manila. There were a couple of other items missing, as well. There was a notice inside my checked luggage that it had been opened and "inspected" in SFO.

At least my other lights (Surefire A2, L1, E1L and E2e-SG), my multitools and my pocket knives, which were in my second checked bag, were untouched.

Filing a complaint will be one of the first things I do when I fly back in a couple of weeks.


----------



## Arkayne (Jan 4, 2006)

*Re: Surefire U2 and airplane carry-on*

I just got back from Vancouver with my A2 and 3 other lights in my carry-on backpack. No questions asked, although, I noticed that the operator reversed the conveyor as my backpack passed to take a 2nd look.


----------



## seattlite (Jan 4, 2006)

*Re: Surefire U2 and airplane carry-on*

Last year was a busy travel year. I've taken various combinations of the following on domestic flights from SEA to Long Beach, Orange County, Honolulu, San Jose, Reagan and JFK, numerous times with no incident: FB1/Aleph1; VG F2; Gladius; E2L; L5; A2; spares carrier filled with RCR123's. All of which have been "carried on"

I took the following to London, UK also with NO incident: FB1/Aleph1; VG F2/P91; RCR123's.


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## GadgetTravel (Jan 4, 2006)

*Please dont make me fly around the world with a bunch of flashlights again!*

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=99734

At lease not for a while. I spent bunches of money and need to save more again, Im still jetlagged and my butt hurts. 

Let me rest a bit....


----------



## Pydpiper (Mar 20, 2006)

*For those who fly with their lights*

Got my L4 back from surefire today, a HUGE sticker on the box says..





Just thought you would want to know..


----------



## CLHC (Mar 20, 2006)

*Re: For those who fly with their lights*

:huh: Ahh, Now I See. . .As GREENLED said.


----------



## greenLED (Mar 20, 2006)

*Re: For those who fly with their lights*

That only applies to actual commercial shipments, IIRC. You're OK carrying a few batts in your lights and some spares on your carry-on.


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## SRacer2000 (Mar 20, 2006)

*Re: For those who fly with their lights*

I've traveled with my L2 & L4 and a spare set, No issues, No delays, Not even a second look from TSA.


----------



## Mr_Light (Mar 20, 2006)

*Re: For those who fly with their lights*

I didn't want to get the Jetbeam thread off topic, but I was wondering what TSA thinks about Tritium vials glued to flashlight?


----------



## ResQTech (Mar 20, 2006)

*Re: For those who fly with their lights*

That's what's on new boxes of 123A cells from Surefire now?


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## Mr_Light (Mar 20, 2006)

*Re: For those who fly with their lights*

See "*Non-Rechargeable Lithium Battery Shipments Banned on Passenger Aircraft" at http://www.faa.gov/apa/pr/pr.cfm?id=1898*


----------



## SRacer2000 (Mar 20, 2006)

*Re: For those who fly with their lights*

according to that label only the batteries in the light would be in question, the secondary set would be fine.


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## cobra-ak (Mar 20, 2006)

*Re: For those who fly with their lights*



Mr_Light said:


> See "*Non-Rechargeable Lithium Battery Shipments Banned on Passenger Aircraft" at http://www.faa.gov/apa/pr/pr.cfm?id=1898*http://www.faa.gov/apa/pr/pr.cfm?id=1898


 Can anyone splain the difference between cargo and checked baggage, I heard that TSA checks checked baggage but that cargo goes unchecked, has anyone else heard this and can splain the logic of it?


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## g36pilot (Mar 20, 2006)

*Re: For those who fly with their lights*

"The Department announced, however, that airline passengers still will be allowed to carry on board and use, or pack in checked bags, personal computers and other consumer products that contain lithium batteries. "

Li batteries in products are fine and I've had no problem w/my 6x123 spares carrier.

DOT allows small quantities hazardous material in personal use items in carry on and/or checked baggage such as hair spray, a very flammable concoction. Ship a case of it on a passenger aircraft? Probably not.


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## JohnJ80 (Mar 20, 2006)

*Re: For those who fly with their lights*



Mr_Light said:


> I didn't want to get the Jetbeam thread off topic, but I was wondering what TSA thinks about Tritium vials glued to flashlight?


 I don't think they care. If you look at the recent changes to the TSA rules, they have eased up on a bunch of the 'sharp' things they worried about in the past. I think I read somewhere that now that the cockpit doors are secured and locked, the main thing they worry about are explosives. (but I could be wrong).

J.


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## this_is_nascar (Mar 20, 2006)

*Re: For those who fly with their lights*

I've said this dozens of time, but most of the TSA are morons anyway. Sometimes that's to the passenger's dissadvantage, but overall, they don't have a clue.


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## Pydpiper (Mar 20, 2006)

*Re: For those who fly with their lights*

I think TIN is right, they just have no clue, unless it has a burning wick hanging out of it..

That box is not from a shipment of batteries, it is from a L4, being returned with my used batteries. (2)


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## Brighteyez (Mar 20, 2006)

*Re: For those who fly with their lights*

The rechargeable batteries in phones and laptops are Lithium Ion, they do not have lithium per se. Insofar as the Lithium primaries, the interpretations are all over the map, and there are a lot of what are seemingly authoritative posts on the matter.

Honestly, I don't know if there is much difference between some of the web forum/newsgroup postings and the experiences that people report with TSA. At least in the case of the TSA, there is a reasonable excuse when you're dealing with people who are being paid a wage that may be below the poverty level.

The best one I heard of recent occurrance was of a group of TSA employees who demanded that a disabled passenger remove his shoes. The gentleman advised the TSA screener that he had MS and was incontinent, showed the employee his ID, and advised the screener that he needed to go to the rest room immediately. The employee, refused and refused again after the passenger advised that he would have an accident. Finally in disgust, the passenger headed off to the rest room with a group of TSA employees telling him to stop and that he couldn't go to the rest room. So ... what's rest of the story? ... The ID that this passenger showed the TSA screener was one from the Department of Homeland Security, he is an employee of the Treasury Department and is stationed at a major airport. The TSA supervisor's excuse was "Uh ... well ... ID's can be forged." Isn't it reassuring to know that these well trained people who couldn't recognize an ID card from their own department are at least in part responsible for your safety everytime you board a commercial aircraft?

Insofar as CR123 batteries in flashlights, I've carried them on planes for years and no one has ever said a thing. I've also seen crew members and federal employees carry CR123 powered lights on board.



g36pilot said:


> "The Department announced, however, that airline passengers still will be allowed to carry on board and use, or pack in checked bags, personal computers and other consumer products that contain lithium batteries. "
> 
> Li batteries in products are fine and I've had no problem w/my 6x123 spares carrier.
> 
> DOT allows small quantities hazardous material in personal use items in carry on and/or checked baggage such as hair spray, a very flammable concoction. Ship a case of it on a passenger aircraft? Probably not.


----------



## TORCH_BOY (Mar 20, 2006)

*Re: For those who fly with their lights*

I have flown with NINH Cells in my lights,
have had no problems with it so far


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## GadgetTravel (Mar 20, 2006)

*Re: For those who fly with their lights*

Arrrgggg. There are a lot of threads about this. Has anyone had any trouble?? I have on frequent occassions in several countries had both flashlights and spares carriers with batteries examined at airport security and have never been questioned about it. I havent tried sending 100 cases of 123s through though.


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## this_is_nascar (Mar 20, 2006)

*Re: For those who fly with their lights*

I've traveled pretty regularly over the last several years and have always had an Arc-AAA and some version of a FireFly with me. I may have gotten the traditonal "what's that" type comments, but never anything more than that.


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## bonvivantmike (Mar 21, 2006)

*Re: For those who fly with their lights*

Recently flew US to UK. Carried an L4, A2, and C3. Also had a four-cell and six-cell Surefire spares containers, fully loaded, as well as a few Pilas. No problems at all. Passed through security at LAX, Heathrow, London City and Edinburgh airports.

However, my carry-on bag did attract a fair amount of scrutiny. I have to assume this had nothing to do with the batteries, but rather from what a part of my carry-on must have looked like on the x-ray. I had all the above-listed hardware in a shaving-type case, along with my Dell Axim, GPS card, Axim charging cradle plus wall wart and Pila charger. The small shaving case was packed so tightly it was difficult to zip closed. All the densely-packed electronics, along with batteries and cylindrical flashlight bodies, could well have appeared pretty suspicious. The TSA screener at LAX on the outbound flight stopped the conveyor belt and scrutinized the x-ray for at least 30 seconds. I informed him that he was looking at flashlights and batteries. He looked for a couple more seconds, then passed it through. No hand inspection. 

There was absolutely no concern about the chemistry of the batteries.


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## roguesw (Mar 21, 2006)

*Re: For those who fly with their lights*

Flew from Japan to NZ and back again. Carried in my laptop briefcase was L4. Had my Pr-T on my key chain. In my carry on bag was surefire battery container with 6 batteries. Had 4 batteries in my laptop briefcase.
No one checked or questioned. Even when i took my keys out to put on the tray to go through x-ray, no one gave a second look.
Havent had anyone turn on my lights yet though so i assume they know a flashlight when they see one.


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## GhostReaction (Mar 21, 2006)

*Re: For those who fly with their lights*

no problems when I flew from Singapore to Dubai, to and fro. Always with my HDS with a primary CR123 , 4 extra CR123 in ziplock, fenix L1p with Lithium batt and a pack of 4 AAA lithium spare. My camera, laptop and phone are also with LiIon batt.


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## Praxis (Mar 21, 2006)

*Re: For those who fly with their lights*

I've flow with lithium primaries for the past couple years with no problems. Only time I have ever had a TSA screener look at a flashlight was once in Philly when the screener saw the little keychain light I bought from Target. It was the tiny Eddie Bauer brand LED light with the funky lithium battery that looked like a little bottle. The screener's only response when I showed him that it was a flashlight was "cool."

I wonder if the new screening equipment TSA is trying to bring online will make any difference. The newest machine uses puffs of air to stir up any particles that might be on you. Then it runs them through a mass spectromer and checks for explosives, etc. They are already at Dulles, may be elsewhere too. Would lithium battery residue show up as an explosive material?


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## Dan_GSR (Mar 21, 2006)

*Re: For those who fly with their lights*

flew from NY to Vegas recently
A2 and M4 carry on
4 spare 123a cells carry on
and 8 more spare 123a cells checked in

from my understanding they don't like it when you carry on A LOT of cells


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## KevinL (Mar 21, 2006)

*Re: For those who fly with their lights*

The other funny thing I noticed is that "no flammable liquids" - so therefore I cannot carry my alcohol based lens cleaning fluid (and I have NO intention to test that rule so I will just leave it at home), yet at the same time, the staff will cheerfully hand me a one liter bottle of alcohol just before I step onto the aircraft after clearing the gate and say "Thank you for shopping at duty free"... must be something about Mr. Jim Beam's name that gets things done


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## SuperNinja (Mar 21, 2006)

*Re: For those who fly with their lights*



Praxis said:


> I wonder if the new screening equipment TSA is trying to bring online will make any difference. The newest machine uses puffs of air to stir up any particles that might be on you. Then it runs them through a mass spectromer and checks for explosives, etc. They are already at Dulles, may be elsewhere too. Would lithium battery residue show up as an explosive material?


That's not common yet?
I remember seeing those on tv, at least over 10 years ago.


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## Pellidon (Mar 21, 2006)

*Re: For those who fly with their lights*

I think the Lithium Primary is more a DOT issue for shipping larger quantities in a commercial shipment. It is the amount of lithium that adds up to a dangerous quantity in large lots. Don't know how much a large lot is though. Similar to lighters being a DOT imposed restriction. If a large concentration of lithium cells were to get wet it could make a nasty situation. 

Technically the amount of lithium in a light set won't be of a level to raise concerns unless it is a CPF charter flight to the Nuwai factory or some bizzare setup like that. 

I haven't had any troubles so far. I do get my opalec modded light scrutinized if I put it in my bag prior to Xray. If I toss it in the plastic tub with my other junk it gets noticed as a flashlight and then ignored.


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## besafe2 (Mar 21, 2006)

*Re: For those who fly with their lights*



cobra-ak said:


> Can anyone splain the difference between cargo and checked baggage, I heard that TSA checks checked baggage but that cargo goes unchecked, has anyone else heard this and can splain the logic of it?



The difference is cargo has no passenger traveling with it whereas checked baggege has a passenger with it.


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## GadgetTravel (Mar 21, 2006)

*Re: For those who fly with their lights*

Back in December I flew around the world with a bunch of lights, just for all of you so we could resolve this. Well, okay, not exactly but I did fly around the world with a bunch of lights including in some terrorist hot spots (Sri Lanka) and didnt have one bit of trouble with the lights. I posted on the thread after each security check. I also have taken about 10 flights this year in the US thusfar, maybe more, I lose track, and no problems. Always with multiple Surefires and a spares carrier (sometimes 2).


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## RAF_Groundcrew (Mar 21, 2006)

*Re: For those who fly with their lights*

I'm off to United Arab Emirates and Oman soon, for a few weeks, and I'll be taking most of my lights with me. Should include 8NX with charger and Ni-Cds, M2, M3, M6, L1, lots of Lithiums, and maybe a Krill light, oh yeah, a couple of ARC AAA-P as well.

Flying military class, so shouldn't have any problems, might get a few curious comments about the M6 maybe......


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## Brighteyez (Mar 21, 2006)

*Re: For those who fly with their lights*

Sometimes, people (especially techincal types) interpret those things too literally. I'd doubt that there would be any problems carrying lens cleaning solution or other alcohol based solutions (e.g. mouth wash, NyQuil®, and as you mentioned, hooch) on board. As a matter of fact, I wouldn't be terribly surprised if they let someone through with a small bottle of 91% rubbing alcohol! Come to think of it, are those $5 50ml bottles that they sell on-board any less flammable than their 750ml counterparts on the ground? 



KevinL said:


> The other funny thing I noticed is that "no flammable liquids" -


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## Praxis (Mar 23, 2006)

*Re: For those who fly with their lights*



SuperNinja said:


> That's not common yet?
> I remember seeing those on tv, at least over 10 years ago.




No, the puffer machines are brand new in US airports, only within the last month or so. My girlfriend is with the TSA (not aviation) and she recalled a coworker from the aviation division saying that only 3 or 4 airports had them so far.


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## Chronos (Mar 23, 2006)

*Re: For those who fly with their lights*

Groan- TSA and "security" Oh don't get me started...

The best was the discussion I had at IAD flying to Texas. Had a locking carabiner on my Tumi laptop daypack. This carabiner has been with me on literally hundreds of flights after I retired it from use when climbing and hiking. TSA decided to confiscate it as it could be used as a weapon. WTF??? The TSA agent put it in his hand like it was a set of brass knuckles. I started to laugh and said "good one!" But he wasn't kidding. I pointed out that if he tried to strike me with it he'd end up breaking every finger on his had due to the gap between the sides of the 'biner. I explained I'm trained in martial arts and I'd LOVE someone to try to hit me with that on their hand! I even offered to let him hit my open palm to see the effect. He then got his superior and I went through this discussion again, to the same effect... "we're right, you are wrong, and we are confiscating this item." Grrrr. So now some room temperature IQ TSA employee has my trusty old carabiner... just hope he gets drunk and tries to hit someone with it! 

Moral of the story? I don't take anything with me on carryon that could even be construed as being a weapon. I can only imagine the conversations one could have due to a crenelated bezel on an E2e. Maybe my experiences are due to living in the DC area?


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## prof (Mar 23, 2006)

*Re: For those who fly with their lights*

Personally I take a minimag with a nighteze dropin...have never been questioned. Most people know a minimag when they see it, and the dropin does not seem to be an issue. If it is, they can have it...cheap enough.


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## Brighteyez (Mar 23, 2006)

*Re: For those who fly with their lights*

The whole thing with airline security has been a joke for well over a quarter century with the airlines not wanting to spend money on it, passengers wanting fares for next to nothing (and expecting first-class service on top of that), and just the increased costs in operating an airline.

Don't really know what's worse, poorly paid, undertrained TSA screeners, or the minimum wage limited-English speaking private security screeners that they replaced. And in some airports, local political pressures have actually kept TSA out of the screening stations.

And this one may be material for Jay Leno, but if some ports want the UAE to run them, perhaps airports who are really interested in having security people who know what they are doing should consider hiring El Al ticket agents . Don't want to mess with them (many are armed.)



Chronos said:


> Groan- TSA and "security" Oh don't get me started...


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## Bod (Mar 23, 2006)

*Re: For those who fly with their lights*

OK, I'm a bit of a newbie so be gentle and, to be honest, I've not read all the posts on the thread so I might be repeating what's already been said but....

I've recently passed an airfreight packing course and looking in my big IATA book....
Consumer electronic devices, carried by passengers and aircrew for personal use, are not subject to dangerous goods regulations. Spare batteries must be protected to prevent short circuits and be carried in carry-on baggage only. 
There's also limits on the quantity of lithium in the battery which is 2g for lithium metal/alloy batteries and 8g on lithium ion batteries (don't ask me how many batteries that would be), If it's over this and no more than 25g then you can carry them if they're protected against short circuits. 
For those of you in the US (most of you by the sound of it) your regs are slightly different but are based on the book I'm reading from and I'm sure this regulation would apply. 
The big sticker on the box was there because it was shipped as air cargo and different regulations apply (don't get me started!). Although, looking at the regs, I'd say the light would conform and allow it to be shipped on a passenger aircraft. 
OK, this has gone a bit too long. Suffice to say, you can carry your lights, laptops etc. no problems.


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## Chronos (Mar 23, 2006)

*Re: For those who fly with their lights*



Bod said:


> ...
> OK, this has gone a bit too long. Suffice to say, you can carry your lights, laptops etc. no problems.



Naah, not too long and appreciate some visibility into printed regulations. However, I doubt that many of the security guards have read these same regs. In my experience (many, many international and local flights) that the regulations appear to be sometimes made up on the spot. 

I actually had a great experience a few weeks ago. On my way home from a flight to/from the Northeast (US) a security guard noticed that I had a swiss army knife in my carryon bag. It was SWAG from Cisco... includes a miniscrewdriver. Anyway the guard was great, and allowed me to place it into my check-in bag (long story) and I was able to transport it home. Interesting how IAD missed the knife though... BTW I had totally forgotten that it was buried deep in a pocket of a carryon bag that I hadn't used in a couple of years. I'm glad that I was able to keep the knife.


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## SuperNinja (Mar 24, 2006)

*Re: For those who fly with their lights*



Chronos said:


> I pointed out that if he tried to strike me with it he'd end up breaking every finger on his had due to the gap between the sides of the 'biner.


Maybe without using any kind of padding.
I would imagine it wouldn't be too hard to fill those gaps with a small towel or something, to make it a halfway decent set of knuckles.


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## laserbokkie (Mar 25, 2006)

*Re: For those who fly with their lights*

I just flew last weekend ferom Israel to Cyprus and 4 days later back.
Was a nice marriage i had there....

Both, my SF M3 and SF G2 incl. 2 sets of spare batteries for both lights.

Noone said a word, usually they at least want to have a lookj at those strange looking objects and then just wave you through, his time no questions asked at all.
And guys believe me, i doubt that there is anything compareable to the israeli security checks.

So, from all my flights from europe to south africa a few times and a hell lot of times germany - israel....the surefires drewe less attention than my harmonicas or my zippo lighter.


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## James S (Mar 25, 2006)

*Re: For those who fly with their lights*

The difference between cargo and carryon/baggage stuff is that it makes little sense to try to ship a bomb on an airplane since you can never know the route your package will take through the mail or other carrier. They contract with airlines to take things, but you can't ship a box and ask to have it be carried by commercial airline on the NY to Chicago route please  So it's not a good potential route for someone to try to do damage to a plane. 

But it's a very good route for something to do accidental damage. Evidently shipments of primary lithium cells can pack enough of a punch that they are considered dangerous to have in the hold. So they will not accept shipments of them anymore.

There is no rule against you carrying a few in a flashlight, shippers just can't contract to ship them in the extra baggage space onboard commercial aircraft thats all.

I've read all these threads, and apart from generating some interest by the guys doing the checking I have yet to read a thread that says they were denied bringing them on board. I might have missed it though


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## RAF_Groundcrew (Mar 25, 2006)

*Re: For those who fly with their lights*

If the cells are part of cargo, on a cargo flight, then they will hav been packed in accordance with regulations concerning dangerous goods, and the flight will have only essential personnel aboard. On a passenger flight, there are many more people, so a fire involving large numbers of cells under the floor is very bad. In the passenger cabin, any fire will be noticed quickly, and can be dealt with using handheld fire extinguishers, and you can always drop a burning lithium cell/s into one of the stainless steel catering containers that passenger flights carry, so the burning will eventually burn out.


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## Nyctophiliac (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: For those who fly with their lights*



Chronos said:


> Maybe my experiences are due to living in the DC area?



Nope,

I always keep my keys on an old carabiner, very convenient, use keys... 'clack' it to my belt loop etc,never lose keys. Flying out to Paris four years ago, no problem from UK customs. Flying _back_ the French customs made me feel like a criminal, right there in front of my four year old daughter and my wife and still with our Minnie mouse carry on bags and buffalo Bill straw hats. Somehow the crab' made me look like Ray Liotta to them!! (I look more like Nathan Lane's fatter brother!!!) I really didn't think we'd get on the flight...!

I'm very glad I'd put my leatherman micro into my suitcase!!

One lives and learns.

P.S. I won't be travelling with my G&P crenelated tactical bezel either. I think plastic G2 would be best!!! Not threatening=no hassles. However an Orb Raw 2-stage will be right in there too!!!


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## watt4 (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: For those who fly with their lights*

I got "puffed" last week, on a roundtrip from Indy to D.C. I thought it was odd that the machine voice said, "Firing gun." at least that's what it sounded like.

I have been flying with plastic lights (less weaponlike). last week it was a UK 2L , a UK eled 4AA, and a couple princeton tec blasts.


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## Manzerick (Mar 27, 2006)

*Re: For those who fly with their lights*

This is awesome info... i've had concern for some time on this topic...


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## Illum (Apr 30, 2006)

*Re: Surefire U2 and airplane carry-on*



Arkayne said:


> I just got back from Vancouver with my A2 and 3 other lights in my carry-on backpack. No questions asked, although, I noticed that the operator reversed the conveyor as my backpack passed to take a 2nd look.



Heh, similar experience here, only it came from my pocket, the inspector obviously dont know that LOTRs on INOVAs you have to turn counterclockwise to open the battery compartment, so that took awhile, in the meantime shining the spot beam in to the face of other inspectors. :laughing:

Sometimes not only must they verify that it works like a flashlight and that your not carrying anything in the battery compartment. whereas it took them awhile to realize the XO's body housed long optics... 


Los Angeles International Airport...."shakes head" :thumbsdow


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## BobVA (May 1, 2006)

*Re: Surefire U2 and airplane carry-on*



deranged_coder said:


> However, the Surefire L1 (NIB) that was in my checked luggage which was supposed to be a gift for my girlfriend was not there in my checked luggage anymore when I de-planed in Manila. There were a couple of other items missing, as well. There was a notice inside my checked luggage that it had been opened and "inspected" in SFO.



If it included a battery, that may have been the problem. There's been a lot of back-and-forth on lithium batteries in checked luggage. 

Interesting that your other packed lights were undisturbed. Just a guess, but did the package say "Lithium battery" anywhere on it? You'd think they could have just taken the battery, though. 

Bummer - enjoy your vacation though.

Cheers,
Bob


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## tattoou2 (May 2, 2006)

*Re: Surefire U2 and airplane carry-on*

My wife had to fly from Syracuse to Charlotte last week on company business. She always carries an EternaLight Derringer whenever she travels in her carry-on bag. Her carry-on was randomly inspected and the light was obviously played with by someone since it was not replaced in the same place within her luggage and the batteries were dead.


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## peacefuljeffrey (May 31, 2006)

*Re: Tactical flashlight for airline travel?*



Paul_in_Maryland said:


> One forum member reported that when a guard asked why he was carrying the flashlight, he replied, "For the same reason pilots are required to have one: To see in the dark."


 
Anyone who is such an idiot that he challenges the idea of carrying a flashlight like it's some alien concept really ought not to have a job with any more responsibility attached to it than streetsweeper. :scowl: These are the same kinds of people who think it means you're some sort of evildoer if you carry a 3" bladed pocket knife. Like a person who _doesn't_ have one is somehow better suited to survive, more fit than someone who _does_ have one?!  

-Jeffrey


----------



## peacefuljeffrey (May 31, 2006)

*Re:*



sotto said:


> I always thought it was funny you could take a BIC lighter and a can of hairspray on board. Makes one hell of a torch (and I don't mean flashlight). /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif


 

Along those lines, it amazes me that they now have revamped the rules and allow wrenches, screwdrivers and pliers up to 7 inches long, but still prohibit a KUBOTAN, which is 5.5 inches long and, being aluminum or plastic (or even wood) weighs probably about 1-3 ounces, if that. :shakehead 


-Jeffrey


----------



## RAF_Groundcrew (May 31, 2006)

*Re: Tactical flashlight for airline travel?*

I mainly travel 'military class' when I fly anywhere, with a few exceptions, where a civilian airline gets me where the military ones don't go (at least not economically).

I have NEVER had a problem with any of my flashlights on any flight, and this includes the batteries, even a clear bag containing about 50 CR123 lithiums, each in it's own cellophane 'sweet wrapper'. The largest light I have flown with is a Surefire M3 CB, in a pouch, in a bag, in my hand luggage or suitcase. The lights that I normally have in my jacket pockets (Surefire M2, 6P and L1, go in my hand luggage and through the X-Ray. I tend to put everything in my hand luggage, as I generally set off the archway detectors unless I'm practically naked. My recent trip, I found that a couple of foil hand wipe sachets in my shirt pocket set of the metal detector!

I can understand some concern over a Surefire 'Porcupine', but it's not really an everyday light in my opinion (although it is as functional (light-wise) as any other SF light), and if I had one, I'd really hate to lose it to a picky security officer......

These days, I don't carry quite so many lithiums, and those I do have are in spares carriers. I have my SF 8NX with charger and 5 B90 cells (I'm not sure what they make of those on X-Ray, I normally shove all 5 of them in a training shoe in my case!).

I've even carried a set of kitchen knives in my suitcase all the way down to the Falkland Islands, and informed check-in staff in advance, just in case, but no problems at all. I think if you have it properly packed, and in a case you don't have access to during the flight, then as long as it's legal, most things are ok.


----------



## JD Spydo (May 31, 2006)

*Re: Tactical flashlight for airline travel?*



Size15's said:


> I know two people who have flown both internally in the USA and internationally carrying the SureFire E2d without any issue.
> 
> After all, if asked, it's just so you can tell whether it's on when you set it down isn't it?


 
Add me to those 2 people. I have flown about 4 times in the last year and I always take my Surefire E2d defender in my "grab bag" that I use for all my carry on stuff like reading material, snacks and so forth. I have actually had 2 of the airport screeners compliment me on the Surefire E2d but when I told both of them the price I thought we were going to have to call a Cardiologist :eeksign:


----------



## GadgetTravel (Jun 1, 2006)

*Re: Tactical flashlight for airline travel?*

Gosh, the problems of flying with lights are like Freddy Krueger, they just wont die. I actually discovered this site as the result of a thread about flashlights on a frequent flyer site. I dont have an E2D, but I dont thing the bezel would make any difference. Im in my hotel in Helsinki after going through security at both JFK and Heathrow with an A2, E1E, ArcP, Peak Matterhorn, and HDS U60 XRGT and a couple spare 123s in my backpack or briefcase that I carried on. I had a spares carrier and another light or two in my checked bag. Ive carried the spares carriers multiple times in my carryon as well. I travel a lot and I have never been so much as been asked about a light while getting on a flight.


----------



## RA40 (Jun 1, 2006)

*Re: Tactical flashlight for airline travel?*

For the most part, there have been minimal instances when travelling with a flashlight and batteries. As always an excess of them may raise suspicions and having to confront the TSA folk will lead to a PITA situation. 

You would think they would have trained them for most situations and at least given them guidance in communicationg with people. The communication skills these people have leaves much to be desired. This is my issue with them.


----------



## Brighteyez (Jun 1, 2006)

*Re: Tactical flashlight for airline travel?*

I really don't understand why this subject keeps popping up. In 30+ years of business air travel (with about 25 of them having to go through metal detectors,) I've always had some sort of flashlight with me and have never encountered a problem or even a question.

These days though, I generally empty my pockets of metal objects well before I get to the security gate and put them into an empty pocket in a carry-on case (laptop or attache case,) or into a zippered jacket pocket that gets passed through the fluoroscope rather than putting them into one of those plastic trays, and then just put them back into my pockets after going through the security checkpoint. If you're travelling without a carry-on, a small fanny pack also works well for this purpose.


----------



## chazpages (Jun 14, 2006)

*Re: Tactical flashlight for airline travel?*

yep, totally fine as flight attendants and pilots are required to have one-and that's company policy!!!!


----------



## frisco (Jun 14, 2006)

*Re: Tactical flashlight for airline travel?*

We as responsible CPF community should come up with a "Canned" answer to carry on flashlights.

TSA question: What is this?
Answer: A flashlight

TSA question: Why do you carry a flashlight?
Answer: In the case of an emergency and all the lights go out in the aircraft, myself and all the people around me will be able see.

Open for suggestions!

frisco


----------



## GregWormald (Jun 14, 2006)

*Re: Tactical flashlight for airline travel?*

G'day,
My answer to why is always the same--torches or knives (although not on planes recently). "I was a Scout--Be Prepared". When they ask "Is that legal?" I always answer "Yup." and never explain any more. Never been asked for further explanations either.
Greg


----------



## 270winchester (Jun 14, 2006)

*Re: Tactical flashlight for airline travel?*



peacefuljeffrey said:


> Anyone who is such an idiot that he challenges the idea of carrying a flashlight like it's some alien concept really ought not to have a job with any more responsibility attached to it than streetsweeper. :scowl: These are the same kinds of people who think it means you're some sort of evildoer if you carry a 3" bladed pocket knife. Like a person who _doesn't_ have one is somehow better suited to survive, more fit than someone who _does_ have one?!
> 
> -Jeffrey



Well, if you live in England, it's time to turn in all those evil pocket knives because the amnesty won't last forever!!! 

I had only one comment from a TSA guy(I think a FIlipino American) and he admired my A2. Anyone else around there didn't even give it a second look...

BTW af far as batteries go I carry them in a SF cardboard box and I carry dozens at a time. When asked, I tell them it's for my camera, after all these 123s were made for cameras....


----------



## quokked (Jun 14, 2006)

*Re: Tactical flashlight for airline travel?*

I've carried both a A2 aviator and a E2e filled with batteries on flights at all sorts of times through Airports in Europe, the UK, SE Asia, Australia and America and i've never been asked what they are. 

If you have a peek at lights through Xrays they just come up as a solid mass, 
Just don't carry anything that looks like a knife onto a flight or a gadget with a big mass of cables floating round your bag, and you *really* don't need to carry a big long light as a carry on unless you're bringing home goodies that you got in the 'States  

The security was tighter flying from Germany to America then Inside America i found :| my luggage got Xrayed so many times on that flight i thought that some of my gadgets could've developed super powers!  
but no one asked me about my lights, i think the profile of the lights in the Xrays is more of a dead giveaway what they are anyway...

YMMV


----------



## Overclocker (Jun 14, 2006)

*Re: Tactical flashlight for airline travel?*

What if your battery looks like this? Homemade 18650 cell with PVC pipe spacer and electrical tape? Doesn't it look like a bomb?


----------



## GadgetTravel (Jun 14, 2006)

*Re: Tactical flashlight for airline travel?*



frisco said:


> We as responsible CPF community should come up with a "Canned" answer to carry on flashlights.
> 
> TSA question: What is this?
> Answer: A flashlight
> ...




How about:

TSA: Whats this?
Me: A flashlight
TSA: Okay thanks, have a nice flight.

Thats more like it. Or if it goes the way you said (never has in about 200,000 miles of flying with multiple flashlights but who knows)

TSA: Whats this?
Me: A flashlight.
TSA: Why are you carrying a flashlight?
Me: Because I feel like it.


----------



## Illum (Jun 14, 2006)

*Re: Tactical flashlight for airline travel?*



frisco said:


> We as responsible CPF community should come up with a "Canned" answer to carry on flashlights.
> 
> TSA question: What is this?
> Answer: A flashlight
> ...



I carry three lights on board...but all below 40 lumens.... INOVA XO, SL Jr Lux, and SL PP 4AA Lux..

The same questions asked, "Why are you carrying flashlights?" and "what are your motives?" 

Worst thing happened: 2 scenarios

[1]=>
A fella by the name of Ron under the security badge unscrewed the inova, dumped out the batteries then compared the batteries to the flashlight, then asked me whats between the bulb and the battery...[obviously he has not seen the TIROS optics nor be able to judge how long it is]

I managed to get over that situation by letting the dog sniff it out...passed

I got smarter then....by printing out the TIROs in comparison with the light itself =P

[2]=>
sos [someone stupid] decided to blind himself using the SL PP by looking into the diode he called "the thang" 

well, the guy happened to be a secruity officer....and the grumbling fell afterwards as he rubbed his eyes...
Nothing else happened, nor was there a gustapo of officers rushing in...

Before I left he was examing the maglight on his belt by looking into it :lolsign:

Thats the last time im transferring airlines in San fancisco airport....


----------



## Lunal_Tic (Jun 14, 2006)

*Re: Tactical flashlight for airline travel?*

Someone needs to make a "Security Collar" for flashlights that fits over the head of the light, is bright yellow, with "Caution High Output Light", 2 key lock release system and an attached waver of liability. Then maybe these guys wouldn't look into the beam. :shrug:

-LT


----------



## Planterz (Jun 14, 2006)

*Re: Tactical flashlight for airline travel?*

TSA: Why do you carry a flashlight in your pocket?
You: Because I can't see in the dark.

TSA: Why do you carry a flashlight in your pocket?
You: Because human optical evolution has adapted our vision to perform optimally under sunlight and does not perform well during the nocturnal cycle.

TSA: Why do you carry a flashlight in your pocket?
You: Because my Generation III AN/PVS-7 NOD Goggles don't fit in my pocket.

TSA: Why do you carry a flashlight in your pocket?
You: I don't. I'm just happy to see you.


----------



## Illum (Jun 15, 2006)

*Re: Tactical flashlight for airline travel?*

Transportation Security Administration not to be confused with [size=-1]Texas Speleological Association
[/size]---------------------------------------------------
[size=-1]According to http://www.tsa.gov/public/index.jsp
=> http://www.tsa.gov/public/interapp/editorial/editorial_1169.xml


"[/size]If you have any questions while at the airport, ask for the TSA screening supervisor. You may also call our Contact Center toll-free at 1-866-289-9673 Monday - Friday between 8am - 6pm (24 hour voicemail)."

under:
*Transporting Scuba Equipment* nothing is said about flashlights
*Sports Equipment* nothing...
---------------------------------------------------
LAX [Los angeles Int'l airport, Small explosion...not good
http://talkleft.com/new_archives/007781.html
---------------------------------------------------
under prohibited items...searchs came no reply on flashlights
http://www.tsa.gov/public/display?theme=177
---------------------------------------------------


----------



## Lunal_Tic (Jun 15, 2006)

*Re: Tactical flashlight for airline travel?*

Flashlights are covered under the "Dual use" aspect of the restrictions.

-LT


----------



## Chronos (Jun 15, 2006)

*Re: Tactical flashlight for airline travel?*

FWIW I traveled between IAD and Newark, then Newark to Dallas over the past few days with the following:

In my carry-on bag:
- SF M2
- Inova X5T with a strike bezel
- Gladius w/ FM34
- SF spares carrier, M2 box with 2 extra lamps

In my jacket pocket:
- SF L1

It didn't even raise an eyebrow.


----------



## andrewwynn (Oct 14, 2006)

*Flashlights on a Plane*

With the darn near nutso newest regulations for airline security, I was uneasy deciding what flashlights i'd bring with on a recent trip around the world (nearly literally).. I was very concerned that i would look like a high-risk when my carry-on bag went through the x-ray machine.

Well.. here's what i had in my carry-on bag (no way i could trust them going through normal baggage handling, especially considering some of the places i would be). 











Add in also that i had a charger for my iPod and PDA in the same case.. 

Well i'm happy to report that even though the bag was x-ray'd at least a dozen times, maybe 20.. it only raised eyebrows once and all they did was swipe it with some patch to detect explosives and let me go on my way. I will also mention that customs opened up my bag on the way back into the country and zipped open the exact compartment with the two big lights and just zipped it right back shut.

So.. for people concerned about bringing their favorite light with them as carry-on.. i would say the worry is more than needed. I will also mention that my belt had my lion cub in its holster and that came in extemely handy on those 10-12 hr flights that were 80-100% in darkness. 

I actually took these pictures in an airport in Taipei when i thought i was going to be forced to check the bag since it was probably over double the weight limit for carry-on with china air (7kg... what a joke!).. my bag is nearly that empty!

I will also add that those 2D mags there.. one is about 3500L and the other (i don't recommend this.. has 2 of the D LiONs.. i only don't recommend carrying that on a plane because they are absolutely irriplaceable).. I would say i was lucky and i don't think i'd take them with me again i just wanted to showcase those two particular lights on my trip to a perspective investor. That said.. ROP etc.. mag85.. i would not worry too much about traveling with them.. however.. had i had more time to prepare i would have found some pissant output lamps to put in the lights so as to not bring on unnecessary attention should a TSA official want to check it out on the way through.

-awr


----------



## Sixpointone (Oct 15, 2006)

*Re: Flashlights on a Plane*

Thanks for posting this.

I think that this is very interesting information and appreciate your sharing that with us.


----------



## scott.cr (Oct 15, 2006)

*Re: Flashlights on a Plane*

Yes, I thank you too for posting this...

Most I have brought simultaneously on an air travel carryon has been a Surefire M4 "big teeth" version, U2 and a six-cell spares carrier and at no time have I seen any indication of concern from the screener.

I did once have a radiological dosimeter in one of my bags... I wanted to see how intense the X-Rays going thru my bag were... and one of the TSA manager dudes wanted to know why I wanted to know...


----------



## kelmo (Oct 15, 2006)

*Re: Flashlights on a Plane*

I just recently vacationed in Bangkok, Singapore, and Hong Kong. I carried on a HDS B42, Arc AAA-P, with extra lithium batteries for both. No problem. Toothpaste was a problem, extra lithium cells not a problem. Go figure...


----------



## BVH (Oct 15, 2006)

*Re: Flashlights on a Plane*

Just got thru re-reading part of the Lunarmodule thread on his "rapid venting with flame" lithium cells. In looking at your case of goodies, it might be good to devise a different way to carry loose lithium cells to prevent them from possibly shorting and venting. I still use lithium cells but they scare me a little.


----------



## BentHeadTX (Oct 15, 2006)

*Re: Flashlights on a Plane*

A coworker went through customs in Istanbul, Turkey and they went through all his bags and left him a note. The note said an item was siezed that contained a battery not allowed on aircraft. The bag was checked baggage.

His Peak Mediterranean had the CR123A lithium battery body on it and they took the entire light, not just the battery. They left my Med with the 2AA body alone. 

Yep, I don't carry lithium flashlights with me anymore. Luckily, my FireFly III was OK since the inspector asked "What is that"? I replied "A flashlight" and turned it on the low level. Maybe the other guy's light blinded the inspector and he "really, really liked it" Not sure but no CR123A batteries for me anymore.


----------



## dmdrewitt (Oct 15, 2006)

*Re: Flashlights on a Plane*

I got stopped at a Southern Turkish (not Istanbul) airport last week going through the scanner at the actual aircraft gate, ready to board the plane back to the UK.

I had a SS Gat V2, HDS U60, McLux III PD and a mixture of 12 x123A and RCR123A batts.

I unpacked the handluggage, showed the police officer the lights. He said, in perfect English. "Why have you got all these torches, are you scared of the dark or something?" I laughed it off, and I was on my way.

Sorry to hear your co-worker lost lights from checked baggage.

I had a HD45 in checked baggage (with primary lithium cells), and that was fine.


----------



## kelmo (Oct 15, 2006)

*Re: Flashlights on a Plane*



BentHeadTX said:


> A coworker went through customs in Istanbul, Turkey and they went through all his bags and left him a note. The note said an item was siezed that contained a battery not allowed on aircraft. The bag was checked baggage.



Now thats disturbing. I usually have a 6P with full SC1 as my luggage queen.

Good thing Samuel L. Jackson doesn't work for the TSA; "Get those mutha f****** flashlights off my mutha f****** plane!"


----------



## Akubra (Oct 15, 2006)

*Re: Flashlights on a Plane*

My last flights were in september : Pittsburgh-Newark-Berlin (Germany). I had an M6 and an Z2 in my carry on, and was expecting to be questioned as to why I would be carrying two flashlights. Surprisingly I didnt run into any trouble, though. None of the security people even mentioned them, or yet wanted to check out my carry on bag....... .


----------



## segan (Oct 15, 2006)

*Re: Flashlights on a Plane*

I just recently flew from Australia to Miami (via LAX) with a HDS U60, ARC-AAA, Fenix L1T and some spare primary CR123s in my carry on bag. 

For outbound flights from Australia to USA, just before you board the plane they have an extra security procedure. Security guys search everyone's carry on bags and also pat you down. The security guy that went through my bag found the U60 and played around with it for a while, told me it was a nice light and that was it.

When I got to LAX to board the domestic leg to Miami, the TSA didn't even care about the lights. I got busted because I forgot about the freebie toiletries kit that I received from my previous leg that has those little tubes of moisturiser, shaving cream and toothpaste. After I put those things in that clear ziplock bag, then they let me through.


----------



## Monocrom (Oct 15, 2006)

*Re: Flashlights on a Plane*

I don't blame you for not wanting to check your lights. Baggage-handlers have been caught stealing items right in plain view of owners, while they sat in the plane!  

But if I was traveling, I wouldn't carry any of my more expensive lights, or the ones I really love. A Mini-maglite with the NiteIze LED kit installed, and a Garrity 1AAA keychain light is what I'd take with me. But, instead of over-seas, I'm hoping to travel to Vegas for a week or two.


----------



## Jumpmaster (Oct 15, 2006)

*Re: Flashlights on a Plane*

Moderator note: 
Thanks again JM for the links. I've merged those threads here.
-Sigman-


----------



## andrewwynn (Oct 16, 2006)

*Re: Flying with flashlights*

They actually changed the rules from when i left the USA to when i came back with the '1 quart ziploc'... 

Now that the thread is merged with the previous i went back and saw a couple things.

I was wondering about the 'home made' aspect of course especially with the 16-cell battery pack i have shoved into a 2D light.. I think that both the batteries and the alum. host are rather transparent to the x-ray so they don't look very suspicious.. (to answer the question "doesn't this look like a bomb").. I discovered a key ingredient.. it might look like a bomb but it doesn't nearly SMELL like a bomb.. no explosive residue evident and it's not a bomb. Very glad about that.. they didn't even open up my bag when they thought it looked a little odd.. just checked for chemicals and let me go on my merry way. 

-awr


----------



## BentHeadTX (Oct 16, 2006)

*Re: Flying with flashlights*

Since I work at a hospital, I x-rayed my 8AA to 2D Mag nFlex LuxV mod and it looks just like a bomb. Yep, 8 cells in a pack, wiring, curcuits and a switch. I remove the holder, remove the batteries and pack them in a container with no problems. 

August, 1989 I was stupid enough to have a Fluke multimeter in my carry on bag  I was fine until I got to Rome, Italy and was greeted with an Uzi to my back. From my sprawled out on the floor position, I got an interpreter and asked the problem. The Fluke looked like a bomb so I (very slowly) got up and removed the meter. Turned it on (slowly) told them what it was and took a voltage reading of an electrical socket. They let me keep my meter as long as I put it in checked baggage. 

If I do it right, I won't have to go through Istanbul when I leave here in 8 months  Get my butt across the pond with my FF3 intact is the name of the game.


----------



## reptiles (Jan 31, 2007)

*Re: Flying with flashlights*

I know I'm adding to an old thread, but I recently was informed of a new hazard to travelling with flashlights and it seems to belong here. 

I attended an ODP/Homeland Security training session in NM regarding suicide bombers recently. One of the hand held actuators they displayed looked *a lot* like a tactical switch from SF, McClickie, or related tail-light. 

So if you're in a sensitive area (or any public place in Israel) it might be prudent to be aware that nervous law enforcement officers might think you are activating a bomb rather than just turning on your light. 

Be careful. 

Regards, 

Mark


----------



## XtreMe_G (Mar 17, 2007)

*flashlight + airport security*

**Merged into master flying w/lights thread**


i was just wondering, has anyone ever tried checking their moded flashlights into a flight. with the heightened security at airports, where they are just one step away from giving me a cavity search, some of the moded flashlights may look kinda suspicious. And i'm not talking about the moded flashlights, i'm more refering to the super torches, like a ROP, mag85, USL, etc....if a tsa agent was to open the flashlight, they might find the battery holders a little suspicious. the fivemega or modamag holder might be ok, buy lets say someone just strapped all the batteries together with duct tape.....man, that will be really suspicious. so, anyone wanna share your thoughts/experiences with moded flashlight and airport security here?


----------



## FireFighter05 (Mar 17, 2007)

*Re: flashlight + airport security*

I am curious about thiss too...


----------



## DaFABRICATA (Mar 17, 2007)

*Re: flashlight + airport security*

HOLD ON!! I"ll post pics in a minute. 
I'm planning a colorado trip soon and just finished my carry case for my surefires to take camping. I was just thinking the same thing about possible hassles.. I'll miss my flight before giving these BI*CHES UP!!! They cost more than the round trip ticket and then some!!


----------



## Kevski (Mar 17, 2007)

*Re: flashlight + airport security*

Talked to a friend @ Homeland Security -- said the only thing they might not allow is something big enough to be used as a club, like a 6D [email protected] Also, batteries need to be removed from 'high power' incan lights as they are considered a fire hazard. Any 'suspicious' battery pack/light will be run through the x-ray again and possibly checked for explosives. I've brought some strange looking electronic gear through a checkpoint with no problems.


----------



## sween1911 (Mar 17, 2007)

*Re: flashlight + airport security*

I dunno man, rather than have to replace a "Torch", USL, ROP, or Mag85 or other custom light, I'd rather just buy a nice yellow Surefire G2 and a 2AA MiniMagLED and let them be my airplane-safe, I-won't-cry-if-I-lose-them lights.

But I'd be curious to see what people have to say who have actually carted their customs around the globe.


----------



## qip (Mar 17, 2007)

*Re: flashlight + airport security*

i would end up getting kicked out of the airport if they tried to take away even a small lodce , i would be complaining like i could do more damage with my keys like stabbing someone with it or choking someone with the lanyard than causing harm with a flashlight,its still my personal property and its not disposable like shampoo :touche:


----------



## ibcj (Mar 17, 2007)

*Re: flashlight + airport security*

I took my 27LT in my carry on, through checkpoints a few times and they didn't say anything. Because of the look of the light, I thought I might get some questions but I didn't.


----------



## aikiman44 (Mar 17, 2007)

*Re: flashlight + airport security*

Just travewled to California and back from New York with my Orb Camo in a holester. No problem throughout.


----------



## DaFABRICATA (Mar 17, 2007)

*Re: flashlight + airport security*

Ok so this little unassuming 7"X10" staple gun case contains:

L5/L4 both with 2-stage tailcaps/ E2e / 6P with Solatec Cree Drop-in / KT1 / KL3 / Arcmania LUX V Tubohead Module /extra P/C series LOTC /Extra E-series LOTC /G&P Strobe tailcap / 2 spare MN02 bulbs / spare P60 bulb / Modded E-series Head / 8 Energizer e2 123 cells / mini tripod for the E1L that I EDC.

I should probably take the bezel off the E1L before going to the airport......


_




_

_



_
_Image removed. Resize image before reposting. _

_Unforgiven_


----------



## qip (Mar 17, 2007)

*Re: flashlight + airport security*

the red in the middle would look like a bomb to security , you will definitely get some weird looks


----------



## DaFABRICATA (Mar 17, 2007)

*Re: flashlight + airport security*

Yeah...it's a rubber cap to keep debris from falling inside the KT1.


----------



## secamp32 (Mar 17, 2007)

*Re: flashlight + airport security*

I recently flew to and within Mexico and was concerned about carrying flashlights thru security, especially within Mexico. I left my E2E home and brought a SF G2 and a SL TL-3. I put both of them in my carryon backpack. Neither got a second glance from security here or in Mexico.


----------



## Monocrom (Mar 17, 2007)

*Re: flashlight + airport security*

Meh, I wouldn't take the risk. All that's needed is one Jack-a$$ Airport Screener, and there goes your beloved light! :thumbsdow 

If it's a business trip or Vacation, why chance it. I plan to travel to Vegas, once I've aquired the necessary vacation-days at work. Two lights are going with me, a *River Rock 2AAA *model, and my *Brinkmann Maxfire LX*. If they get confiscated, I'm out only $30.oo

I can easily replace both with a quick trip to Target. 

I just don't think it's worth taking such a risk.


----------



## taiji (Mar 17, 2007)

*Re: flashlight + airport security*

If you must take your lights along please carry with you a USPS prepaid box that you can mail to yourself just in case.


----------



## PARIS (Mar 17, 2007)

*Re: flashlight + airport security*

DaFABRICATA

Im impressed with your staple gun case! Thats Hot!!

Very clever and quite classy.


----------



## PARIS (Mar 17, 2007)

*Re: flashlight + airport security*

If you were to travel abroad with that case it may raise the eyebrows
of a well seasoned security expert, especially someone with a law enforcement
background. ( not to mention Intelligence ).

If it was me doing the security screening, i would pay a compliment to the case
and make offer.


----------



## kingoftf (Mar 17, 2007)

*Re: flashlight + airport security*

I had problems with a stock Maglite 3D last year at the Duesseldorf-Airport (Germany)
They didn´t allowed me to take it on board.
Had to bring it back to the baggage check in.

The security guy told me " With this huge flashlight you could kill the pilot"......
The next one in the cue was a professional photographer with his equipment, a Zoom twice the size as my Maglite. He had no problem to get on board and during the flight he killed the pilot with the zoom.......... :lolsign:


----------



## DaFABRICATA (Mar 17, 2007)

*Re: flashlight + airport security*



PARIS said:


> DaFABRICATA
> 
> Im impressed with your staple gun case! Thats Hot!!
> 
> Very clever and quite classy.


 
Thank you!!!! I plan to keep them in my back pack carry-on.
At least I can show them that each one works.....if questions arise.
If anything, maybe a slight delay, but I want to try these out in a real world environment!
That is after all Why I bought these in the first place. Its fun around home. But nothing compares to the ultimate test :the climate, different weather conditions, real world durability.
They're pretty, but I bought 'em just for occasions like this!!! 
I live in a city where the sky is pretty bright regerdless of cloudiness/whatever. Its completely different out in the wilderness with no city ambiant light polluting the sky.


----------



## PARIS (Mar 17, 2007)

*Re: flashlight + airport security*

I suggest book a flight a soon as possible and take along your Avant Garde
Classy Torch carrying case and have a Grey Goose Martini !

P.S., This is my 50Th Post, maybe i should have a Marrtini


----------



## PARIS (Mar 17, 2007)

*Re: flashlight + airport security*

Oppsie, Typo, correction to Martini.


----------



## PARIS (Mar 17, 2007)

*Re: flashlight + airport security*

P.S.S, 
I know what you mean about the City,,,,


----------



## DaFABRICATA (Mar 17, 2007)

*Re: flashlight + airport security*

INDEED!!!


----------



## Pellidon (Mar 17, 2007)

*Re: flashlight + airport security*

I have had no troubles to date with my QIII or my Golston with the crenelated head. A 3D or larger will not pass muster as it is capable of being used as a club. Disregard the big 2 cell sized light on the wall next to the pilot's door. Some screeners will not pass a 2D mag either. It is borderline. Basically if it looks like it can be a weapon, it probably ain't going in the carryon. 

Don't expect the screeners to be able to make your light work. I had a modded "Police" cheapie and the screener could not grasp the concept of "press the rubber thingy there". Twisting the tail was almost beyond his motor/mental skill set. 

PS I must declare that I have little or no respect for the goons at TSA. I fly too many times each month for work and my checked tool kit gets vandalized or broken on average of once every third trip. It is better than 4 out of 5 in the recent past. In the 20 years before TSA I had zero instances of lost, damaged or stolen items in my checked luggage.


----------



## DaFABRICATA (Mar 17, 2007)

*Re: flashlight + airport security*

Theres absolutly no way I would put this one on checked luggage. This is on my person no matter what......even if it means walking back out the front door. 
Can some people that went to SHOT SHOW chime in on this, I saw pics where it seems some have brought they're collections(or part of) to this event.

I'll keep the Surefire catalogs with me as reference.


----------



## XtreMe_G (Mar 17, 2007)

*Re: flashlight + airport security*

wow, DaFab, that's a nice case. If u ever got selected for the ssss, it's gonna take them forever to check all that stuff for explosive traces. i once traveled with a bunch of electronics on my carry-on (laptop, external drives, camera, bluetooth hs, mouse, kb....etc) and 9 out of 10 times when i travel i get the "special screening". it took them 20 minutes to get through all my stuff.


----------



## DaFABRICATA (Mar 17, 2007)

*Re: flashlight + airport security*

As long as they don't give me the finger-jab-special scrEEEEEMMMING!!, I'll be OK....Not implying anything, but I'm still a virgin there!!


----------



## batman (Mar 17, 2007)

*Re: flashlight + airport security*

I"ve taken my Brinkman maxfire LX aroudn the globe with no problems. from Tulsa, OK to Chicago, OH to Hong Kong on into HCM, Vietnam. WIthin VN from HCM City to Ha Noi without a problem with US, hong kong or Vietnamese Airlines or customs. Actually, the US customs are the crankiest of the bunch. The Vietnamese are the most serious, no BS attitude customs I've ever known. (think Arnold Schwarzennager in "Red Heat.")
I know of atleast 1 other CPF member who took an M4 to Vietnam without a problem. Just for the record, I kept my Brinkman in the checked on luggage with batteries installed.


----------



## Coop (Mar 17, 2007)

*Re: flashlight + airport security*

I had a talk about this subject a while ago with one of my friends, who works security at Schiphol (Amsterdam Airport). He works the x-ray machine, so he has a lot of hands on experience with this subject. 
He told me that most flashlights wont be a problem. Especially if you leave the batteries out (preferably in their original, unopened packaging). Without the batteries, a batteryholder will look a lot less suspicious, and no one will give a second thought on a pack of batteries in your luggage.


----------



## elgarak (Mar 17, 2007)

*Re: flashlight + airport security*



MayCooper said:


> I had a talk about this subject a while ago with one of my friends, who works security at Schiphol (Amsterdam Airport). He works the x-ray machine, so he has a lot of hands on experience with this subject.
> He told me that most flashlights wont be a problem. Especially if you leave the batteries out (preferably in their original, unopened packaging). Without the batteries, a batteryholder will look a lot less suspicious, and no one will give a second thought on a pack of batteries in your luggage.


In the USA, primary Lithium batteries are not allowed in the storage area of passenger planes. You cannot put them in checked baggage, neither inside the light nor out. It will cause an inspection ... and I will not leave expensive electronics (that includes flashlights, of course ) in my checked baggage for TSA to take.

I never had any problems with flashlights and spare battery packs in my carry-on, except raised eyebrows, wise-arse comments by screeners ("Hey, take a look, this guy's prepared!") and frustration by one TSA lady about the number of Pelican cases she had to check. I usually take 3 or 4 SFs (including a KL5 on a C2 body with SW02 tailcap, which could qualify as a club or kubotan) and my Gladius . I don't have any 'tactical' bezels, though.

There may be some problems in the future with Li batteries... Not too many, I hope, cause business people have to take their cell phones, laptops etc. Can't offend your most profitable clientele... But be prepared to leave spare CR123A...


----------



## elgarak (Mar 17, 2007)

*Re: flashlight + airport security*

The big problem I see on international flights, since the rules are not uniform. Like cigarette lighters: Allowed in the USA in checked baggage in suitable container (Otter box). Forbidden in carry-on. The reverse in Europe: Allowed in carry-on, forbidden in checked.

So if you wanna take an old lighter (which is a family heirloom) from Europe to the USA legally, you're SOOL.

Let's just hope they don't cook up something similar for Li batteries .


----------



## ernsanada (Mar 17, 2007)

*Re: flashlight + airport security*

Last year I went to Maui with my McLux PD Ti Bezel.

This year I went to Hong Kong with a LOD CE and Jet Beam C-LE.

I kept all the lights in my carry on luggage. Security didn't say anything to me.


----------



## JimmyM (Mar 17, 2007)

*Re: flashlight + airport security*

I always fly with my Fenix P1 and LED Mini-mag with no questions. Duh.
For a few weeks I traveled with my ROP-Lo LE in a 2C with deep tailcap.
Still no questions. Of course that's not the lumen arsenal as shown above.
Most firearms I see packed for travel don't look that well prepared. He's only missing the "trigger" lock.


----------



## XtreMe_G (Mar 18, 2007)

*Re: flashlight + airport security*

i saw this link somewhere in cpf but for the life of me i cant remember where. apparently the government is looking at restrictions on lithium batteries.


----------



## TORCH_BOY (Mar 18, 2007)

*Re: flashlight + airport security*

I have taken my EL Blaster 3P on a plane with no drama at all, it went in the luggage department and my smaller lights came with me


----------



## Illum (Mar 18, 2007)

*Re: flashlight + airport security*

Anyone know do they allow A2s on board international flights?

considering its an "aviator" light....just wanted to make sure


----------



## PARIS (Mar 18, 2007)

*Re: flashlight + airport security*

there probably wont be any problems regarding taking the A2 on board an international
Flight, providing its checked in along with luggage.
Check with TSA, or the Flight and ask what the specific rules are regarding flashlights,
especially if its carried onboard
Flight Reps. can interpret that in various ways, and that can be subject to whoever
is doing the checking / screening.


----------



## flashy bazook (Mar 18, 2007)

*Re: flashlight + airport security*

here is the list of items allowed/prohibited by tsa on flights:

http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/prohibited/permitted-prohibited-items.shtm

as I read this, you are not allowed a lighter at all (unless w/o fuel, or if fueled in approved containers and in checked luggage and even then no more than two). matches are allowed only in the carry-on if of the safety type and if 4 packs or less.

(someome posted that other countries can do different things, and that's certainly true! on matches, for instance, London lets you have only 1 pack of safety matches, but does not allow it in the carry on! (nor in the checked luggage). It must be ON YOUR PERSON! (how strange is that?? in your pocket is better than the carry-on? what is the logic?)

on flashlights, tsa does not list them explicitly, but I think it's obvious they are allowed. I think if they were to fall under some kind of difficulty, it might be if they are classified as "tools" (which are allowed but must be 7 inches or less in length - so some long flashlights could raise an issue).

Also, martial arts equipment (such as kubatons, or clubs) are not allowed and, again, some flashlights could kind of look like something like that and be disallowed.

one other thing that has changed, I used to like to carry those (chemical, not electronic) light-sticks with me, for one they make great emergency items and nice impromptu gifts for kids but these are no longer allowed on carry-ons.


----------



## abinok (Mar 18, 2007)

*Re: flashlight + airport security*

I flew from OKC to STL and back a month ago... I had 6 lights... 4 maglite based incans, up to and including a MAG623 all in a pistol case (with chargers), a surefire 9P, and a Fenix on my belt.
I carried on the case.
In OKC, the security lady at the xray kinda gave me a look... then i said "flashlights" and she said yea... im just wondering why you have so many! I build and sell custom flashlights, was my response. Went right through.
In STL, the xray operator requested a hand search, and after the supervisor opened the case the questions started... not why do you have these, but "why would a guy need a light like this anyway?" A few minutes of swabbing and intelligent questions later, and I was one flashlight lighter. She thought a 2CROPLE (2XAW18650P modded to fit into a stock length mag... no magring) might come in handy


----------



## matrixshaman (Mar 18, 2007)

*Re: flashlight + airport security*

I wonder what tsa would do with a Gatlight?


----------



## knightrider (Mar 18, 2007)

*Re: flashlight + airport security*

I wonder how they would view an M6 with the crenulated bezel... best not to find out.


----------



## Illum (Mar 18, 2007)

*Re: flashlight + airport security*

PARIS, I carry my A2 on person at all times... Im sure if its with the carry-on there wont be a problem

I just hope battery carriers like surefire SC's arent mistaken as antipersonnel mines....

I potted my SC3 in dirt and from afar it looked a bit convincing...try that with an SC1


----------



## arewethereyetdad (Mar 18, 2007)

*Re: flashlight + airport security*



matrixshaman said:


> I wonder what tsa would do with a Gatlight?



I made it through KC to Orlando (for the SHOT Show) and back with no problems. Gatlight on my carry-on, along with many other lights.


----------



## Akubra (Mar 18, 2007)

*Re: flashlight + airport security*

I was flying back to Berlin from Pittsburgh (via Newark), last september, and had my M6 (scalloped bezel) as well as my Z2 in my carry on. I was a bit worried about the lights, especially the M6, but everything went fine. Nobody wanted to even look into my carry on, let alone check out the lights!

And mind you, this was only weeks after they had busted those guys that planned to attack several US bound planes, starting from the UK. Guess I was lucky! 

I did have my Z2 in my carry on on a couple of flights between Germany and the US in the past few years, and it never was an issue. Fingers crossed.


----------



## jlomein (Mar 18, 2007)

*Re: flashlight + airport security*

I think everyone should remember a lot could be based on racial profiling. If you are carrying suspicious luggage, and are also from a minority or foreign descent, you may encounter more problems than a Caucasian businessman.

I'm not saying it's a right thing to do, just that it's a sad fact.

I once went on a drive from Vancouver to Seattle for a Mariners game. My Caucasian friend and I (Asian) had no problems, but my Middle Eastern friend was drilled with questions for about 10 minutes at the border, even though he had an American passport.


----------



## frogs3 (Mar 18, 2007)

*Re: flashlight + airport security*

Since the Patriot Act, the "rules" are whatever "they" want them to be. I had no problem with an Inova T2 after I showed the agent the batteries, but I had to give up my shaving cream -- too large a container, and toothpaste!!

We need some more new Senators and Congressmen -- just my opinion -- who may have read the Constitution. It all starts and ends with that document.

When they start banning batteries, my Congressman may be out of a job if he doesn't veto it THAT DAY. We are not sheep. Write to your airlines, and let them know how much you like to drive instead of fly. Remember, money talks, LOUD. We are not sheep -- Oh, did I mention that?

Your mileage may vary widely -- scary isn't it? 

HAK
Nr.6


----------



## jumpstat (Mar 18, 2007)

*Re: flashlight + airport security*

Lights should not be a problem. My cousin came from heathrow carrying an M6 was told to switch on the light and show the contents of the batteries when at the security. He was allowed to hand carry it. Fluids and shaving cream, etc was a no no unfortunately. What was surprising was that lighters were allowed and we are able to purchase all kinds of stuff in the duty free area after the security checks.


----------



## jnj1033 (Mar 19, 2007)

*Re: flashlight + airport security*

In the last couple of months, I've flown about eight times within the U.S. Each time, I've had my P1D CE on my belt, and my E1 on my keyring. Never even got a raised eyebrow over them. I've also gotten through with small containers of liquid in my carryon (forgot to take them out for screening). Maybe it's my innocent-looking face.


----------



## greenstuffs (Mar 19, 2007)

*Re: flashlight + airport security*

I've had a carry on once from LA to OKC with a E2E and L2 both with primaries and the TSA didn't say anything...


----------



## prof (Mar 19, 2007)

*Re: flashlight + airport security*

I just got back from a trip to San Diego for a conference. I had two lights with me--an arc on my keyring (in carryon for TSA convenience) and an X5T. The first TSA person was VERY CONCERNED about the X5, and asked a supervisor for an opinion. He looked at it, said "oh that's a flashlight it's not a problem" and all was well. For a moment there...

I think it depends on the person reading the xrays and their experience. I used to take a minimag with nite-eze drop-in as it's cheap to replace. I took the X5 this trip because the minimag was (still is) in a box in the closet while the X5 is in the bag I take to work daily. (Great light to light up a classroom or hallway to evacuate students during a power failure--and if you've ever seen a bunch of college students during a power failure, you'll understand...)

Anyway, on the way back I had no problems at all.

I would not take a really nice light. If you can't afford to loose it, don't take it.


----------



## Cerbera (Mar 19, 2007)

*Re: Flying with flashlights*

I plan on traveling soon. I should definitely uninstall my Kiu Bezel. They shouldn't question the bezel if I have it stored in my carry on...right?


----------



## sejvaar (Apr 27, 2007)

*Re: Flying with flashlights*

I just spent 35 minutes on hold waiting to talk to the TSA to clarify this as I will be flying internationally soon and do not want the large quantity of batteries I am taking to be confiscated. I was told lithium batteries are allowed in any quantity in checked AND carry on bags. There is no specific packaging requirement. For our "convenience" in was "recommended" that no batteries be inserted into any device as it would require further examination. 

The list of prohibited items on the website also does not mention lithium batteries. Only spillable batteries such as auto batts are disallowed. With regard to the lights themselves I was told it was going to be up to the screeners if it could be used as a weapon...well I guess that means Chuck Norris can't fly at all!! 

In the past if I had issue with what the screener was trying to block I have usually been able to ask for a supervisor who 100% of the time has very quickly said no problem...my last flight was different...the screener had power issues and refused to get a supervisor to see if my blunt point EMS shears were allowed. I was told if I don't want to follow the rules (which allow these scissors) I would not be allowed to fly. After the supervisor wandered close to the detector I addressed him myself and he said sure no problem  

Third world is a whole other thing and they follow the rules they want. I always Marlboro cigarettes for "gifts" even though I don't smoke...seems every border guard outside of the developed world does and they love them. Greasing the wheels as they say....


----------



## dragoman (Apr 28, 2007)

*Re: Flying with flashlights*

Hi,

I fly at least twice a week for work, mostly in the US but some international stuff, and I've NEVER been stopped/questioned/confiscated any of my lights, and I've carried an assortment! 

Usually I have (at a minimum) my SF A2, D2, 2 MiniMag LEDs, P1, and probably some more that I forget.

TSA is never a problem for me.

dragoman


----------



## batman (Apr 28, 2007)

*Re: Flying with flashlights*

I've never met resistance carrying my brinkman maxfire LX in Vietnam. I don't think 3rd world or 1st world countries give a [email protected] enough about a flashlight to take one out of your luggage unless it's percieved as a threat. 
What constitutes a threat in the US sure as hell doesn't always mean a threat to other peoples around the world exept in the case of drugs and guns.


----------



## ltiu (Jul 21, 2007)

Hi guys,

Flying soon and I would like to know your experiences with bringing flashlights on a plane. 

Any tips on what I should do? Should I keep the batteries out of the lights? Should I put the lights in a checked-in baggage? Can I bring it with me in a carry-on luggage? How about in my pocket with the batteries on? Any issues with specific flashlights, those lights with sophisticated circuitry that could interfere with flight controls? Any issues with special batteries like 14500, L91, CR123's?

Anyone here care to share their experiences, please.

Thanks for any tips and suggestions.


----------



## Danintex (Jul 21, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*

I took a L5 and E2 on my last flight and no one bothered me. They usually run it thru the x-ray or open them up but as long as they don't look crazy you should be fine.


----------



## ltiu (Jul 21, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*



Danintex said:


> I took a L5 and E2 on my last flight and no one bothered me. They usually run it thru the x-ray or open them up but as long as they don't look crazy you should be fine.



Did you bring it in your carry-on or checked-in luggage?


----------



## Lightingguy321 (Jul 21, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*

In terms of self defense, one of the last weapons that you are actually allowed to bring on an air plane now a days is a flashlight. If the flashlight has a crenellated bezel it may be confiscated. Other wise, it should be able to clear security no problem.


----------



## DaFABRICATA (Jul 21, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*

I went through security with no problems(other than a strange look from the guy in the X-ray booth)
I had on me my E1L with TID bezel and the case was in my carry on.


----------



## Pellidon (Jul 21, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*

As long as it doesn't look like it could be used as a club or some kind of toy you're fine. Scruffy and well used helps too.




It looks better there than in real life.


----------



## Grummond (Jul 21, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*

I’ve never had any problems flying with lights a on plane and I always have them with me in carry on.

As for the lights with sophisticated circuitry, I can’t imagine them affecting the flight controls; any electromagnetic signals coming from them are way too low.
It’s mainly devices such as cellular phones and so forth which are emitting radio frequencies, which may affect instruments in the cockpit.

The only way I can really see you’re lights getting you in trouble would be if you were happily sat there sipping on your orange juice and decided to see what 160 lumens worth of strobe effect looks like inside the cabin of a 747. :green:


----------



## OceanView (Jul 21, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*

I fly with my Milky-modded HDS EDC. It's usually on my belt but I just stick it in my carry-on or in a jacket pocket and send it through the x-ray machine at the security checkpoint. Never had any problems except for the one time that I forgot to remove it from my belt and set off the metal detector. I totally forgot it was on my belt and couldn't understand why I set off the alarm twice. 

I quickly pulled off my belt and my EDC dropped straight to the floor and that's when I realized what the problem was. Fortunately, the floor was carpeted so no harm done. I still had to undergo a more thorough secondary search but the TSA agent just turned the light on and off once and didn't pay it much attention. However, when we were all done and I was about to walk away, he said, "Nice light". Heh-heh, not such a bad experience after all.


----------



## BSBG (Jul 21, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*

Never a problem, and I fly a fair amount.

My L4, 6P, A2 and / or Fenix L1D never get a second look in my carry on. Keep you spare batteries in a case or holder. There was a thread about bringing an m6 a few weeks ago - again, no issues:

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/168321


----------



## sgt253 (Jul 21, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*

Just a few words on my experiences. I fly every two weeks around the Continental US. I carry a light with me always. I will either put it in the tray or put it in my x-rayable carry on. I never had a problem. I hope this helps.

Regards.


----------



## bigfoot (Jul 21, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*

I've flown with my Arc AAA-P in my carry on bag and stuffed a couple of spare AAA cells in a small baggie. Not so much as a second look.

Might try flying with my E1L next time and see what happens. I think having a postage pre-paid envelope to mail to yourself "just in case" is a great idea, though. I don't like the idea of some TSA screener wanting my light more than I do.


----------



## JNewell (Jul 21, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*

Flashlights in my carry-on are about the*only* category of gear I've never had any problems with (knock on wood). Everything else...cameras, lenses, monopod, toiletries, computers, you name it...


----------



## RoyJ (Jul 21, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*

A 6D Mag with a full load of dead batteries or a tigerlight with a can full of pepper spary may cause a little suspicion...


----------



## Lee1959 (Jul 21, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*

Flashlights on a plane? That is the low budget sequel to Snakes on a Planes isnt it? I think it is about a group of nerdlike flashlight wielders attempting to take over Air Force 16 (the head janitor of the White Houses personal plane used for emergency presidential bathroom plugups, and the resulting international incedents, all over the world).


----------



## AFAustin (Jul 21, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*

I thought I had read somewhere once that lithium cells (or maybe li-ions) could be a problem at high altitude/pressurized cabin, etc., and so you should stick with NiMH. Glad to hear that that's not a problem after all.


----------



## Deffenhazad (Jul 21, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*

Just don't let the missus insist on bringing her can of hairspray in carry on to save $3.. 

gah.. PITA.. 

and the end of the day its a torch.. Even cells within a cabin it is pressurised (otherwise your head would turn inside out). 

Undercabin is a different story though


----------



## AFAustin (Jul 21, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*



Deffenhazad said:


> Just don't let the missus insist on bringing her can of hairspray in carry on to save $3..
> 
> gah.. PITA..
> 
> ...



Is undercabin where the luggage is stored? If so, bring your light(s) in your carry-on, but not in your checked luggage?


----------



## elgarak (Jul 21, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*



AFAustin said:


> I thought I had read somewhere once that lithium cells (or maybe li-ions) could be a problem at high altitude/pressurized cabin, etc., and so you should stick with NiMH. Glad to hear that that's not a problem after all.


No, there's not a problem at all with any batteries due to the pressure.

The problems and the limitations of Lithium batteries is due to the fact that, if they get hot or burn, produce their own oxidizer, which means that they provide fuel for a fire that cannot be extinguished with standard means relying on removal of oxygen of the air.


----------



## Deffenhazad (Jul 21, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*



AFAustin said:


> Is undercabin where the luggage is stored? If so, bring your light(s) in your carry-on, but not in your checked luggage?


 
Yes indeed, sorry never had it refered to as checked.. when you put your gear on the mystical roullette baggage wheel of doom, where you pray that your bag doesn't end up holidaying in a better place than you.


----------



## Curious_character (Jul 21, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*



AFAustin said:


> I thought I had read somewhere once that lithium cells (or maybe li-ions) could be a problem at high altitude/pressurized cabin, etc., and so you should stick with NiMH. Glad to hear that that's not a problem after all.


I hope it's not a problem! If it is, we're in mortal danger from all the cell phones, cameras, computers, and IPods!

c_c


----------



## AFAustin (Jul 21, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*



Curious_character said:


> I hope it's not a problem! If it is, we're in mortal danger from all the cell phones, cameras, computers, and IPods!
> 
> c_c



Good point.


----------



## Marduke (Jul 22, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*



Deffenhazad said:


> and the end of the day its a torch.. Even cells within a cabin it is pressurised (otherwise your head would turn inside out).
> 
> Undercabin is a different story though



The luggage bins in the bottom of the plane are also pressurized and heated. Otherwise, people's pets in their animal carriers would die in about 5 minutes, and all contents in your luggage would be a frozen brick at your destination. As for the pressurization in either the cabin or luggage compartments, it's not pressurized above normal atmospheric pressure, it's pressurized to be equivalent to being at 8000 ft altitude or less.


----------



## carrot (Jul 23, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*

I took my A2, E1L, G2Z, L1S, L2S, L1D, L2D and a dozen alkalines on the plane with me. No problems. The TSA guy didn't even give the stuff a second glance.

Edit: forgot to mention that there was also a PD-S.


----------



## greenstuffs (Jul 23, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*

I EDC a Ti PD and have taken it to US flights nothing wrong, LAX or SFO screeners just gives them a second look but nothing out of the ordinary. OK will rogers airport they just don't care heheh


----------



## DoctorBenny (Jul 23, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*

I seem to be one of few people that have actually had a problem. I was transporting my 5D Maglite via air, and i was only bringing a carryon. the lady pulled it out, and asked me:

"Um, is this yours sir?" 

"Yep. That's my flashlight alright. Problem?" 

"Well sir, this could potentially be used as a weapon." 

"Hmm, I never even thought of that. I just wanted to bring my flashlight." Then I tossed her a smile and she let me on through. The thought of it being a big heavy metal stick never even occured to me.


----------



## Paul_in_Maryland (Jul 23, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*

All my lights use lithium-ions. I've heard that these cells are perceived as risky, so I'm not willing to gamble that some newbie will figure "better safe than sorry" and "ask" me to leave the cells, or the entire light, behind.

So: When I fly, I pack my light and cells in my checked luggage. I board with a $1 keyring LED light.


----------



## Monocrom (Jul 23, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*

Clearly other CPFers haven't had a problem. But why take the risk? All it takes is one Screener either having a bad day, or knowing how expensive your lights are.... and wanting them. You could stand and argue.... as you miss your plane.

I have a couple of spare Dorcy 1AAA's, and a Garrity 1AAA that I can use for air travel. Along with a Dorcy 4AAA light with a carry-clip. All are inexpensive. All are LEDs. And if a Screener confiscates them, I'm not going to care *too* much. 

Besides, international laws vary considerably. Keep that in mind when flying to other countries.


----------



## daloosh (Jul 23, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*

Now I have a coinlight in my checked luggage, but my lights come with me. 

I stupidly packed our camcorder into checked luggage on the way home from visiting relatives, and some luggage monkey, or TSA, stole my camcorder in it's case, with spare batteries, tapes, and most importantly, my footage that I shot on vacation. Won't make that mistake again.

Oh, also, I travel with a stamped, self addressed envelope, mostly in case I bring a knife to security by accident, so I can send it home, but it would work for a smaller flashlight, too. I suppose I jettison the battery or batteries, and then it would be as light as a pocketknife or multitool.

daloosh


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## Curious_character (Jul 23, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*



daloosh said:


> . . .Oh, also, I travel with a stamped, self addressed envelope, mostly in case I bring a knife to security by accident, so I can send it home, but it would work for a smaller flashlight, too. I suppose I jettison the battery or batteries, and then it would be as light as a pocketknife or multitool.
> 
> daloosh


I've done that too for quite a few years now. Saved my $20+ pocket knife twice so far.

c_c


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## Monocrom (Jul 24, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*



daloosh said:


> Oh, also, I travel with a stamped, self addressed envelope, mostly in case I bring a knife to security by accident, so I can send it home, but it would work for a smaller flashlight, too. I suppose I jettison the battery or batteries, and then it would be as light as a pocketknife or multitool.
> 
> daloosh


 
That's not an option anymore in some places.... They removed all of the mailboxes near the airport. Just in case a terrorist decided to place a letter-bomb in one of them.


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## prof (Jul 24, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*

I've had very few issues, although a screener recently questioned an Inova X5. She had another person look at the x-ray image. He said, no, that's not a problem just a flashlight.

First time I've taken the X5--usually I toss in an old minimag with a night-eze drop-in. I figure most people are familiar with mags, and the drop-in is not that odd. Why take a chance?

Oh, no one has ever questioned the arc on my keyring.

I have NOT taken expensive lights, however. Should not be an issue, but...caution and common sense.


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## JNewell (Jul 24, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*

Confirming that, I used to do the same with prepaid FedEx mailers - but the drop boxes are scare as hen's teeth now, and the locations are difficult to turn up in an online search now. 



Monocrom said:


> That's not an option anymore in some places.... They removed all of the mailboxes near the airport. Just in case a terrorist decided to place a letter-bomb in one of them.


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## tarponbill (Jul 24, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*

Old school here, I take a mini-Mag everywhere in carry on, with spare batteries and previously with bulbs. Mostly for Hotels and problems that occur in world travel, power is not that reliable. I now put in a Nite Ize LED. Not the best light but does the job.

Everyone knows the mini-mag so there hasn't been any problem, but the newer lights, especially the really wild looking, you never know.


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## TorchEnvy (Jul 24, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*

I've taken my L2T through as a carry on several times. Never been questioned about it, but then never say never. My Carribean survived a trip or two in my checked bag, too.

In Kansas City, there are little secured clusters of gates rather than one big security bottleneck. Therefore, lots of services are outside of security that normally wouldn't be at many airports. I went outside of our secured gate area to get some food & a bottle of water to mix baby formula. The screener dude wouldn't let me bring the sealed water bottle through without first making me leave it with him, go 50 feet to where my wife & daughter were seated, physically bring my daughter back to him to demonstrate that I in fact had an infant for whom the formula was needed. :scowl: And even then, another guy who wasn't present for our first conversation almost didn't let me have it.

That has nothing to do with flashlights, but just my commentary on the whole lack of common sense with the whole process.


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## LEDcandle (Jul 24, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*

That's why I fear buying a $300 EDC and not being able to take it overseas in the fear that it gets lost in checked-in luggage or confiscated at the checkpoints. 

I'll stick to carrying a Jetbeam or Fenix AA type light, since they are just as good. I do hope to stretch the legs on some of my custom mods and HIDs though, but worry about losing them. 

I think a neck-adorned Draco will make it through innocuously enough though


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## jnj1033 (Jul 25, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*

I've flown at least a dozen times this year with at least two flashlights on me. For a while it was a P1D CE on the belt and an E1 on the keychain. Now, the P1D CE is on the keychain, and a P2D is on my belt. My most recent flight was two days ago. No comments, no second glances that I'm aware of.

Also, regarding lithium cells, I have also put my Maxfire in checked luggage with a piece of electrical tape blocking the contacts, as well as a shrink-wrapped 4-pack of Amondotech CR123A's. The one time I did that, I found a note in my luggage indicating that it was opened for a closer look, but nothing was missing.

I have also flown to Europe with a Princeton Tech Yukon HL in my carryon. I had to pull it out and show it to the screener, but no fuss was made. He just wanted to see what the battery pack connected to a foot of wire was.


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## R11GS (Jul 25, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*

I posted this in another "flashlights on a plane" thread....


Lithium batteries can be considered hazardous cargo. I presently have some mixed information, but from what I can glean from some of our suppliers, certain lithium batteries may *not* be carried on an aircraft, whether checked or carry-on.


What I have seen that *is* ok:



> Four product categories can be mentioned.
> 
> According to IATA, "consumer electronic devices containing lithium or lithium-ion cells or batteries, such as watches, calculating machines, cameras, cellular phones, lap-top computers, camcorders, etc., when carried by air passengers or crew for personal use" are permitted aboard passenger aircraft as carry-on baggage or checked baggage, without the approval of the operator or pilot-in-command.
> 
> ...


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## GregWormald (Jul 26, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*

I recently flew from Australia to Singapore and then Thailand and back with an Arc AAA in my carry-on and and an Inova X5 in my checked baggage. Once they wanted to look, but that may have been for a knife in my money clip.
Once on the plane however, they gave us serrated steel steak knives with our meal! Go figure!
Greg
ps--the Arc was real useful in finding a fellow passenger's lost earphones.


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## raythompson (Jul 26, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*



Deffenhazad said:


> Undercabin is a different story though


Baggage compartment is pressurized and has the same temperature as the plane. If it did not lots of containers would burst from freezing or pressure differential.


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## raythompson (Jul 26, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*

I have made several trips to Germany and England from the US. I have always carried my Surefire A2, ARC-AAA, and an HDS U60. I have never been questioned about the lights. I place the lights in the tray that goes through X-Ray, along with my large camera bag. No one even blinked.

A Mag 5D may be a problem for possibility of being a club. If you can fit the light in your pocket then flying with the light will not be a problem.

Just for reference it is indeed possible to illimuninate the wing tip of a 747 from the window seat. Only did it a couple of time, at night (naturally), and when almost everyone was asleep. In retrospect I suppose if the pilot had seen it there might have been some questions.


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## Tempest UK (Jul 26, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*

Went through Heathrow airport earlier this year with no problems due to my lights. I had an HDS EDC B60, Arc AAA, Fenix L1T, Surefire E2e and E2w in my carry-on. Some spare alkaline cells too, I think. No problems coming back, either. They did examine my bag just to check the lights worked (or just to play with them...) but once they saw them work they just sent me on my way


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## R11GS (Jul 26, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*

This happened in Sept '04:



> LOS ANGELES — Four terminals at Los Angeles International Airport (search) were shut down for more than three hours Saturday after a passenger bypassed security at one terminal and two flashlight batteries exploded during screening at another, authorities said.
> 
> The incidents, about a half-hour apart, were apparently unrelated and there was no link to terrorism, according to the federal Transportation Security Administration (search). Thousands of Labor Day weekend travelers were evacuated from the terminals.
> 
> ...


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## elgarak (Jul 26, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*

It's not very helpful to post old news that we all took note of when it happened; this event was investigated and did not induce any changes of rules as far as FAA or TSA are concerned. 

Nothing to see here, move along.


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## R11GS (Jul 26, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*

Oh well.



I was searching for completely unrelated things and that popped up and _seemed_ related to this thread which I had read recently. My bad. Do you call that a 205 around here?


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## NA8 (Jul 26, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*



elgarak said:


> It's not very helpful to post old news that we all took note of when it happened; this event was investigated and did not induce any changes of rules as far as FAA or TSA are concerned.
> 
> Nothing to see here, move along.



I missed that news story. How do two C cells explode ?


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## R11GS (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*

It's an old story and should not be mentioned on this forum. Especially in this thread.


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## Monocrom (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*



R11GS said:


> It's an old story and should not be mentioned on this forum. Especially in this thread.


 
Some of us actually appreciate the fact that you posted that.


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## R11GS (Jul 27, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*

I think I understood the different perspectives on posting "old news" - but I didn't find a "tongue in cheek" emoticon for that last post of mine...


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## NA8 (Jul 28, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*



R11GS said:


> It's an old story and should not be mentioned on this forum. Especially in this thread.



I think people worry about the wrong things


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## jayke (Jul 29, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*

Hi, 
I just flew from Orlando to Minnesota this weekend for a vacation. I brought in my carry-on packed in a Pack Rat a ton of lights and batteries. A Huntlight, Couple of Fenix's, Jetbeam MKIIx, HDS 60, Surefire L4 ans about 20 extra batteries. I was worried and had a large padded enveloped on me incase I had any problems. The screener saw it all and they had to inspect it. The security guy could not find the Pack Rat because my backpack has so many pockets. I told him it was a bunch of flashlights and he zipped my bag and let me go on my way. NO PROBLEMS with a bunch of lights!!


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## Monocrom (Jul 29, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*



jayke said:


> Hi,
> I just flew from Orlando to Minnesota this weekend for a vacation. I brought in my carry-on packed in a Pack Rat a ton of lights and batteries. A Huntlight, Couple of Fenix's, Jetbeam MKIIx, HDS 60, Surefire L4 ans about 20 extra batteries. I was worried and had a large padded enveloped on me incase I had any problems. The screener saw it all and they had to inspect it. The security guy could not find the Pack Rat because my backpack has so many pockets. I told him it was a bunch of flashlights and he zipped my bag and let me go on my way. NO PROBLEMS with a bunch of lights!!


 
Wait.... so you just told him it was a bunch of lights, and he took your word for it and just let you on your way?? oo:

Well, that makes me feel real confident about the airline industry.


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## jayke (Jul 29, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*

@Monocrom

Ya, I was surprised. I was ready to dump all my stuff out on the table. I was 100% sure that they it would all raise a red flag for further inspection so I had them all together except for one. He knew what he was looking for because of seeing them in the x-ray he said. He just couldn't find them. I did pull out the huntlight to show him since that was on the only light not tucked away in a sheath.

Joe


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## Patriot (Jul 30, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*

My brother flew from AZ to CA this last weekend. Last night he shared with me about his airport security experience. He had his E2D, and a to my surprise they apparently had no problem whatsoever with it despite it's aggressively machined bezel. What really worked them up was the Surefire spares carrier with six batteries. The security guy even asked my brother in a superhero voice, " Is there anything that you'd like to tell me before I search your bag?" My bother thought that maybe it was because of the flashlight and said, "uh I don't think so. To my knowledge I don't have anything that should alarm you." (Security)"what is this?" (Brother)"a hard case for holding spare batteries" (Security)"what kind of batteries?" (Brother)"Surefire batteries" (Security)"fire?" (Brother)"Surefire." (Security)"what are they used for" (Brother)"flashlights, cameras, n'stuff." (Security)"we need you please step back here sir." They then proceeded to give him the full "grandma" screening and removed every item in his entire bag. Two more security personnel came over and sifted through his belongings. They dismantled the contents of the spares carrier as if they were baby rattlesnakes preparing to strike. My brother was thinking to himself, "well, I'm never going to get that thing back." After security ascertained that my white, clean-cut, neatly dressed, 35 year old brother wasn't going to stage an attack against the airport they actually gave the carrier back to him with batteries and sent him on his way. My brother couldn't help but to chuckle at the apparent lack of knowledge from so-called professionals.


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## g36pilot (Jul 30, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*

River Rock K2 Lantern (batteries were installed) was stolen yesterday from a friends checked bag on a NWA Detroit-Tampa flight. There were no other items missing. This bag was inspected by the TSA as evidenced by a TSA inspection pamphlet placed inside.

It was either stolen by an airline employee or confiscated by a lazy TSA screener (doubt this). A TSA confiscation should have resulted in some sort of notification and/or passenger questioning.


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## JNewell (Jul 30, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*

Considering the number of electronic devices that use 123 cells, that's kinda overboard, but that's not a shock.

My least-inspiring TSA story from recent travels is the security guy who insisted that he had to hand inspect my several cameras and lenses because the x-ray screener couldn't be sure that they were what they were. He authoritatively put each of the SLRs up to his eye to make sure they were, in fact, cameras. Problem: they had no lens mounted, only a body cap. Soooo...all he "saw" was the back of the black plastic cap...which told him what, I'm not sure...


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## ltiu (Aug 5, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*

Field Report.

Flew R/T last week with two flashlights in my carry-on, a MTE 1xAA SSC-P4 42180-U and an Inova X1 gen2. Plus I have 3 flashlights in my checked-in baggage, a RR K2 3AA HL, a Dorcy 6AAA K2 and a 9 LED 3AAA Bass Pro Shop. No issues. Checked-in bag was never opened or searched (no piece of paper from the TSA saying so). My carry-on never attracted any undue attention from the TSA.


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## Dinan (Aug 5, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*

I'll be flying to the Bahamas for a little vacation soon and I was wondering what lights I should bring...

I was thinking my E2D with the LF EO-E2R bulb and just a Photon Freedom Mini, but I'm not sure about airport security. (Have to travel through London Heathrow which is kinda strict lately). I could put a black E2E head on it to make it less suspicious and carry the E2D head in a bag or something. Or I could bring my A2 instead but I think it's a tad too big. My L4 would be ok too but I'd rather have something with more throw and preferably incan.

What do you guys think?


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## batmanacw (Aug 5, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*

I have flown over 1 million airline miles in the last 7 years. Every single one of them was with a Surefire in my brief case or back pack. Either a E2E, E1E, U2k, or L1. Not one single time have I ever had a problem. 

Now I have a couple of Fenix lights that will be traveling with me instead of my heavier U2.


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## Warp (Aug 5, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*

I have taken my Surefire G2, Fenix P1, 2xAA Mini-Mag, and Streamlight 4xAA Pro-Polymer onto a commercial airline many times...including 6 already this year.

The only thing they ever double checked was my Surefire SC1 spares carrier...loaded with P60 and 6 CR123s.


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## Monocrom (Aug 6, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*



Dinan said:


> I'll be flying to the Bahamas for a little vacation soon and I was wondering what lights I should bring...
> 
> I was thinking my E2D with the LF EO-E2R bulb and just a Photon Freedom Mini, but I'm not sure about airport security. (Have to travel through London Heathrow which is kinda strict lately). I could put a black E2E head on it to make it less suspicious and carry the E2D head in a bag or something. Or I could bring my A2 instead but I think it's a tad too big. My L4 would be ok too but I'd rather have something with more throw and preferably incan.
> 
> What do you guys think?



Since you're going to be traveling through London, I think the idea of putting an E2e head on your E2d is a good idea. Not sure if taking the E2d head with you as well is a good option. The head by itself might be confiscated as a potential weapon.


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## daloosh (Aug 6, 2007)

*Re: Flashlights on a plane?*



Dinan said:


> My L4 would be ok too but I'd rather have something with more throw and preferably incan.


 
I always fly with an L4 in my bag, with two stage tailswitch. I think it makes a great goto light. On low, it will last forever, on high, the wall of light rocks. I stay away from incans if I carry only one or two lights, so I don't need to worry about a spare lamp. Like Patriot36's brother above, I have had my spares carrier searched more than once, so I often don't bother.

daloosh


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## picard (Sep 2, 2007)

Has anyone have trouble with TSA confiscating your LED flashlight?

I am concern about this issue since I will be traveling for holiday this September.


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## Marduke (Sep 2, 2007)

You'll find many stories and experiences: (_Moderator note: THANKS for the links, threads merged & inactive links removed_.)


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## Supernam (Sep 2, 2007)

The consensus is that, NO, your lights do not get confiscated even if it's crazy looking like the SF M6.


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## Monocrom (Sep 2, 2007)

Despite the rather positive experiences that most CPFers have had with the TSA, I say; why take the risk. All it takes is one Screener having a bad day, or worse; recognizing your M6 for the pricey item it is.... Again, why take the chance? 

When I plan on flying to Vegas, I'll be taking along a Mini-Mag with the Nite-Ize 3 LED kit installed. Both the light and the LED set-up are inexpensive. A Mini-Mag is common as dirt and easily recognzed as "just a flashlight." But if it does get confiscated, who cares! You're not out, much. It's easily replaced. A key-chain light is also not likely to be confiscated. (But to be on the safe side, I'm leaving my Photon II at home and going with a Princeton-Tech squeeze light). 

I'm amazed at the CPFers who so casually travel with an M6. Considering the price tag, why risk it?


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## lightr07 (Sep 2, 2007)

If i travel usually its with something like an E1e. Not bright. No Strike bezel, Usually with batteries removed. If some type of "security" situation happened recently than i might just send a light to my hotel (In a medium sized box with plenty of padding or packing peanuts.) if I'm going to be there awhile. Or i'll just buy a G2, Which i've never had problem's getting through when i went through security back in October-November. (The G2 is only if i forget to take / send a light, Which is pretty hard to do, And has never happened.)


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## djblank87 (Sep 2, 2007)

*Re: \"Tricks\" to calm airport security*



Graham said:


> Hmm.
> 
> I'm going to play devil's advocate here. Call me paranoid, but isn't there a chance that carrying around a page apparently printed from a flashlight makers website, make you *more* suspicious? I mean, if you're just carrying an innocent little flashlight, why would you go to the trouble of printing out this page and carrying it around with you? Maybe you expect trouble? But then why would you expect trouble if you're not doing anything suspicious?
> 
> ...


 
Couldn't agree with you more. Red Flags would be shooting up all over the place in my mind if paperwork was brought to me explaining the flashlights and there specs. That would be in my "Stop search that guy book" real quick.


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## lightemup (Sep 2, 2007)

*Re: \"Tricks\" to calm airport security*

i've flown all over North America, Asia and Australia with my g2z, ultra-g and inova 24/7 in my carry on bag and my L4 in my pocket (that i put on the tray through screening with my watch etc). Never had a problem other than positive remarks re brightness


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## DM51 (Sep 2, 2007)

*Re: \"Tricks\" to calm airport security*

LOL, I always take a complete arsenal of lights with me whenever I go away. After all, it's when you are away that you are likely to need them most. On my most recent flight I took what must have been ~20-25 lbs of lights, batts, chargers etc, most of them packed in my checked baggage. I have never had a problem with X-ray inspections etc. 

The only times when I have been recalled following X-ray inspections, they wanted to know about small 0.1 litre and 0.4 litre air-cylinders in my diving gear, and the larger O2 / Trimix / air cylinders for my rebreather. On each of those occasions there were dive-lights in the same bag but they were not bothered about those at all.


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## DaddyCool (Sep 2, 2007)

Uhh guys, this thread becomes a little to large... 630 replies too much to read from beginning. How about not to post you were having no problems (boring) but to post you had PROBLEMS? Thread title says* "Anyone had TSA confiscated your LED flashlight?"* not *"Anyone had TSA NOT confiscated your LED flashlight?"* :sleepy: Just my two cents


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## Marduke (Sep 2, 2007)

Why worry about the screener confiscating it? If they tried, you don't just shake your head and walk away, you take it to their boss and the next level. In the end, they will most likely at least get chewed out for trying to take what is obviously just a flashlight, and possibly fired for trying to take one on the suspicion of just wanting to take yours. It's better to have them with you in a carry on than in your luggage where you have no say if a screener searches and pockets it in the loading bay.


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## Monocrom (Sep 2, 2007)

DaddyCool said:


> Uhh guys, this thread becomes a little to large... 630 replies too much to read from beginning. How about not to post you were having no problems (boring) but to post you had PROBLEMS? Thread title says* "Anyone had TSA confiscated your LED flashlight?"* not *"Anyone had TSA NOT confiscated your LED flashlight?"* :sleepy: Just my two cents


 
This topic is actually 3 topics combined into 1 by one of the Mods. It was done yesterday.


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## southernlites (Sep 24, 2007)

Anybody had any problems with Eternalights on flights ?


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## Bushman5 (Sep 24, 2007)

the sheer lunacy of "airport security" astounds me. 

i'm amazed they dont chop off my hands or my feet, because i use those as weapons all the time. In fact, one might say that a person trained to use their hands , is more dangerous than someone with little training on a weapon.

i dunno. This NWO and police state that is happening makes me sure enjoy driving. But i bet they will take that away soon too.


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## zfreak (Sep 28, 2007)

Bushman5 said:


> the sheer lunacy of "airport security" astounds me.
> 
> i'm amazed they dont chop off my hands or my feet, because i use those as weapons all the time. In fact, one might say that a person trained to use their hands , is more dangerous than someone with little training on a weapon.
> 
> i dunno. This NWO and police state that is happening makes me sure enjoy driving. But i bet they will take that away soon too.


 

Yup, in this world, the libs are here to take our freedom away. Making one law at a time.

I've been questioned like crazy about my harbor freight HID when I took it as a carry on here in Denver. I got it through, but they gave me a hard time about it.


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## Sigman (Sep 28, 2007)

Closing this one and continuing here...


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