# New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor *updates*



## chevrofreak (May 24, 2006)

Here is a giant hard to read composite of the Fenix AA lights on high beam.
 
http://lights.chevrofreak.com/pages/FenixAAcomposite1600x900.htm
 
slightly less giant but equally hard to read
 
http://lights.chevrofreak.com/pages/FenixAAcomposite1200x675.htm




Here is the P1 runtime for the black sample. Very bright.







*UPDATE AGAIN!* I thought the L1T I had was defective, but after a very thorough cleaning of the threads on the body and head it works perfectly now. There must have been some crud in it causing a lot of resistance for low mode. 












The L2T Ni-MH line shows a higher intensity than the lithium line, but I must not have had it aligned right with the meter during the lithium runtime. I thought I had though... 

It was suggested that I split the L2T into low and high graphs because the low causes the high to be squished too much.












There is something very curious going on with this Civictor, I'm getting more runtime out of it now than I did before....

I believe it was due to a dirty or oily contact between the body and head, so I'm removing the old lines and replacing them with the new ones.







More coming.

It seems that the Energizer E2 lithium cells I've been using, although they tested at over 1.7v, have been below expected capcity. I'd like to get some fresh ones to use for more runtime tests but I'm not a wealthy man, so if anyone would be willing to donate some money for the cause that would be much appreciated PP addy is chevrofreak(at)hotmail.com


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## jar3ds (May 24, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

awesome! Thanks... they were not lying about its regulation/runtime...

Thanks chev!


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## jsr (May 24, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

Wow, that's good regulation. I wonder how a Jet1 compares.


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## LowBat (May 24, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

WOW! Can't wait to see how the LxT's compare.


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## cheapo (May 24, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*



jsr said:


> Wow, that's good regulation. I wonder how a Jet1 compares.


 here is how:

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d148/emilionlee/jetcr123.jpg

and that is using cr123s.

-David


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## this_is_nascar (May 24, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

It's nice to see that Fenix got the regulation right this time.


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## chevrofreak (May 24, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

L1T high added


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## nerdgineer (May 24, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*



this_is_nascar said:


> It's nice to see that Peak got the regulation right this time.


...Peak?...


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## Flash007 (May 24, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

Do you have easy access to the Lux (eventually for a replacement, if the tint is not good) ?
If yes, I will buy one, because the regulation is perfect.

Thanks.


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## chevrofreak (May 24, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*



Flash007 said:


> Do you have easy access to the Lux (eventually for a replacement, if the tint is not good) ?
> If yes, I will buy one, because the regulation is perfect.
> 
> Thanks.


 
It should be about the same as the other Fenix lights, a screwed in (threadlocked) heatsink with the circuit and LED.


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## LowBat (May 24, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*



chevrofreak said:


> L1T high added


By any chance will you be doing a comparison test of the L1T vs. L1P with NiMH, say 2500mah?


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## chevrofreak (May 24, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*



LowBat said:


> By any chance will you be doing a comparison test of the L1T vs. L1P with NiMH, say 2500mah?


 
Yes 

L2T high added


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## Penguin (May 24, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

P1 looks like a winner to me!


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## 4sevens (May 24, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

chevrofreak you are amazing. tracking shows it just arrived on your door step!


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## chevrofreak (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*



4sevens said:


> chevrofreak you are amazing. tracking shows it just showed up on your door step!


 
Time travel is one of my many abilities  

BTW mega thanks to you for providing these units for testing

If anyone is swayed by these graphs to purchase a Fenix light, 4sevens' www.fenix-store.com is the place to go.


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## Planterz (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

Wow, nice runtime plot for the P1. Glad I ordered one.


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## 4sevens (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

chev.... can you super impose a l1t on high with a l2p head on l1p?



Also, when you get around to it, super-impose the v1 with the l1p 2.5


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## chevrofreak (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*



4sevens said:


> chev.... can you super impose a l1t on high with a l2p head on l1p?
> 
> 
> 
> Also, when you get around to it, super-impose the v1 with the l1p 2.5


 











Like that?


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## paulr (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

Looking forward to NiMH and alkaline tests. Interesting that the L1T and L2T supposedly use the same head. The L2P is definitely beating the L2P for total output, especially since L92's have a bit more juice than L-AA's. I guess the L2T circuit is de-tuned a bit in order to work with AA alkalines.


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## Planterz (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

That's supprising. It looks like the L2P head/L1P body is still a better light than the L1T (running on lithiums anyway). The L1T is only minimaly brighter, but the L2P/L1P lasts quite a bit longer. Of course, the L1T has the low mode, but for those who aren't interested in that, the L2P/L1P combo looks like the way to go.


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## abvidledUK (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

I note that the Civictor graph is very similar to L1T graph, could it be that the Civictor actually has a L1T head, but not sold as such ?

A comparison graph between Civictor and L1T would be very interesting !!!

When printed out and compared side by side, it is easy to spot the similarities.


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## abvidledUK (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

Small point..

I don't know if it's possible, but could the X axis and Y axis for this group of graphs be kept the same ?

Light intensity all equal, time scales all equal.

Perhaps a composite of L1P L1T L2P L2T Civictor.


Easier to compare then.

Thanks

Keep up the good work..


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## ViReN (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

the L2P is great light when it comes to regulation as compared with other Fenix light.... I just hope that they dont discontinue L2P... 

L1T may be brighter initially, but the regulation is poorer to that of L2P ALSO the the L1T lasts less time (*BY *40 MINUTES) ..... meaning... not efficient in taking off the energy from the Battery.. by just being tad brighter (which eyes wont even notice)


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## HonorKnight (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*



ViReN said:


> L1T may be brighter initially, but the regulation is poorer to that of L2P ALSO the the L1T lasts less time (40 MINUTES) ..... meaning... not efficient in taking off the energy from the Battery.. by just being tad brighter (which eyes wont even notice)



40 minutes? Is that something that happened to you? The chart says over 172 minutes to 50%. Do you mean it lasts 40 minutes less than the L2P head? Also it seems unfair to compare a 1 AA light (L1T) with a 2AA light (L2P). Are you referring to just the L2P head with 1AA? Sorry, just a little confused.


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## Planterz (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

He means 40 minutes less runtime. The L_P used by Chevrofreak in these graphs is an L2P head running on a single cell (either a dummy cell in an L2P body or just an L1P body). This configuration has better regulation and runtime than a stock L1P.


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## Phaserburn (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

Chevro, how did the P1 do with heat on that long of a sustained burn?


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## sonofjesse (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

Do you got the P1 on rechargables? I want to know how much the runtime suffers from the increased lumens.....

thanks


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## chevrofreak (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*



abvidledUK said:


> Is the L1P actually graphed using E2 Lithiums, its' graph is very similar to your previous L1P with alkalines, not at all like your previous L1P with Lithium. (this is the L1P / Civictor graph, Yellow & Green)
> 
> I note that the Civictor graph is very similar to L1T graph, could it be that the Civictor actually has a L1T head, but not sold as such ?
> 
> ...


 
It's not wrong.


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## chevrofreak (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*



abvidledUK said:


> I've just noticed that you've removed the joint Civictor / L1P graphs, leaving just Civictor graph, so was L1P Lithium incorrect on this particular graph ?
> 
> Small point..
> 
> ...


 
I didn't remove anything.


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## chevrofreak (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*



Phaserburn said:


> Chevro, how did the P1 do with heat on that long of a sustained burn?


 
I did not check how hot it got, I had a fan blowing on it that would make it quite cool to the touch anyway



sonofjesse said:


> Do you got the P1 on rechargables? I want to know how much the runtime suffers from the increased lumens.....
> 
> thanks


 
I'm firing it up now.


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## Rando (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*



sonofjesse said:


> Do you got the P1 on rechargables? I want to know how much the runtime suffers from the increased lumens.....



Exactly what I was wondering.


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## chevrofreak (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

The Li-Ion black P1 graph was added.

Just fired up the silver P1 on a Sanyo CR123a.


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## Flash007 (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*



chevrofreak said:


> It should be about the same as the other Fenix lights, a screwed in (threadlocked) heatsink with the circuit and LED.


 

The screws of the heatsink/LED module, they are glued to the head, or you can unscrew it easily,without forcing ?

I should ask this to 4sevens.


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## abvidledUK (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

I'd like to see Civictor compared with L1P and L1T using nimh, if poss.


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## abvidledUK (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*



abvidledUK said:


> I'd like to see Civictor compared with L1P and L1T using nimh, if poss.



Alkalines too pls


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## 4sevens (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*



chevrofreak said:


> More coming.



5 hours 50 minutes of constant flat output on the L1T on low!
Thats impressive. Looks like it's fully regulated on low.


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## chevrofreak (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*



abvidledUK said:


> Where did I get this graph from, it was this morning, was it another thread then ?
> 
> UPDATE: Found it, it was post 18 by yourself, this thread, when I couldn't find it at beginning, I thought that you had removed it.
> 
> ...


 
The Battery Station lithium curve was a bit flatter, but the Energizer has a bit longer total time. All of the tests I've done on the new Fenix AA lights have been with Energizer E2 lithiums so thats why I used the L1P E2 line instead of the Battery Station line


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## Jarzaa (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

Are you testing with new batteries or the used surplus energizer lithium batteries?


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## abvidledUK (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*



chevrofreak said:


> The Battery Station lithium curve was a bit flatter, but the Energizer has a bit longer total time. All of the tests I've done on the new Fenix AA lights have been with Energizer E2 lithiums so thats why I used the L1P E2 line instead of the Battery Station line


As above, plus Civictor please.


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## Planterz (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*



4sevens said:


> 5 hours 50 minutes of constant flat output on the L1T on low!
> Thats impressive. Looks like it's fully regulated on low.


Not quite the 10 hours advertised though. Still, nice regulation.


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## adirondackdestroyer (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

Wow, Fenix has come out with some real winners here! Both the P1 and the L1T look awesome!!! 
Can the L1T be run on 14500 cells for high output?


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## cmendoza (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

How about a runtime for the L1T on alkalines?


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## abvidledUK (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*



chevrofreak said:


> Like that?



Chevro, any chance of including Civictor graph on top RT graphs combo ?

Is the L1P really brighter for longer than the Civictor, I thought they used the same head / electronics.

To quote "The output is the same as the classic L1P"

http://fenix-store.com/product_info.php?products_id=76

4sevens care to comment David..


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## Rando (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*



chevrofreak said:


> The Li-Ion black P1 graph was added.
> 
> Just fired up the silver P1 on a Sanyo CR123a.



Don't see the Li-Ion P1 graph anywhere, anyone mind pointing me in the right direction if I'm just overlooking it?


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## chevrofreak (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*



Rando said:


> Don't see the Li-Ion P1 graph anywhere, anyone mind pointing me in the right direction if I'm just overlooking it?


 
They were added to the first P1 graph.


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## chevrofreak (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*



abvidledUK said:


> Chevro, any chance of including Civictor graph on top RT graphs combo ?
> 
> Is the Civictor really brighter for longer, I thought they used the same head / electronics.
> 
> ...


 
The Civictor is the green line, not the yellow one. The Civictor has less runtime and brightness than the L1P.


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## chevrofreak (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*



adirondackdestroyer said:


> Wow, Fenix has come out with some real winners here! Both the P1 and the L1T look awesome!!!
> Can the L1T be run on 14500 cells for high output?


 
Yes.


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## chevrofreak (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*



Jarzaa said:


> Are you testing with new batteries or the used surplus energizer lithium batteries?


 

I'm testing with the cells I was supplied. I check each one for voltage and they have all been 1.725 volts or higher, and most were around 1.775


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## LowBat (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

The P1 with a regular 123 looks great. I was disappointed to see what happened with the rechargeable 123.

Still eagerly awaiting the L1T vs. L1P NiMH comparisons. :devil:


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## chevrofreak (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*



LowBat said:


> The P1 with a regular 123 looks great. I was disappointed to see what happened with the rechargeable 123.
> 
> Still eagerly awaiting the L1T vs. L1P NiMH comparisons. :devil:


 
The rechargeable lines were what I expected after running an L2P on an R123. The P1 does better though.


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## Rando (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*



chevrofreak said:


> They were added to the first P1 graph.



Thanks for the pointer, had to manually dump my cache to refresh the image.


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## sonofjesse (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

Been waiting on this light for months the P1. And have it preordered..and usps should get it here today FINALLY.(thanks USPS, I know 4sevens gives excellent service.

Whats up with the 50min runtime with R 900mah I spent another 60 bucks on batteries and charger. And its going to hopefully replace my L1P for my daily cary, but the light has such a short life compared to the L1P. This sad, what happened to that flat regualtion on it?

Maybe I would have been better off getting a FF3..........


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## chevrofreak (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*



sonofjesse said:


> Been waiting on this light for months the P1. And have it preordered..and usps should get it here today FINALLY.(thanks USPS, I know 4sevens gives excellent service.
> 
> Whats up with the 50min runtime with R 900mah I spent another 60 bucks on batteries and charger. And its going to hopefully replace my L1P for my daily cary, but the light has such a short life compared to the L1P. This sad, what happened to that flat regualtion on it?
> 
> Maybe I would have been better off getting a FF3..........


 
The P1 was never stated as regulated with a Li-Ion.



> Note:
> The input voltage of Fenix P1 is 0.9V～4.0V. Therefore 3.7V protected rechargeable Li-ion battery can be used for Fenix P1. Brightness can reach 75 lumens but we don't condone the use of these types of batteries and won't take responsibility for the potential risk involved.


 
That means it will overdrive the light from the higher voltages. It does however drop into regulation for a short period before the battery completely craps out.


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## chevrofreak (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

The 3v regulated RCR123's would probably be more regulated and run a bit longer. If anyone wants to donate a pair to me for runtime testing purposes that would be great


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## LowBat (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*



chevrofreak said:


> The 3v regulated RCR123's would probably be more regulated and run a bit longer. If anyone wants to donate a pair to me for runtime testing purposes that would be great


I would if I had some. Do you need any NiMH AA cells for the L1T test?


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## chevrofreak (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*



LowBat said:


> I would if I had some. Do you need any NiMH AA cells for the L1T test?


 
I've got some Sanyo 2500mAh cells, and one is in the L1T right now.

Thanks though


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## LowBat (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*



chevrofreak said:


> I've got some Sanyo 2500mAh cells, and one is in the L1T right now.
> 
> Thanks though


That's the test I've been waiting for.


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## abvidledUK (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*



chevrofreak said:


> The Civictor is the green line, not the yellow one. The Civictor has less runtime and brightness than the L1P.


You're quite right, I've corrected my typo.


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## Phaserburn (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

You do good work, Chevro. Thanks for your time, btw!

:goodjob: 

I think it should be noted, folks, that you shouldn't necessarily buy one light vs another based solely off which line is higher on the chart. If the output isn't at least 33% more, you'd probably have a hard time distinguishing one from the other in real use unless side by side on a white wall. L1P vs L1T is an example. Runtime is a different story.


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## VF1Jskull1 (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

hey is it me or is there something wrong with the silver/natural P1 as compared to a black P1?... 

if the graph is true i want an exchange for a black one since i preordered a natural/silver one....


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## LowBat (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*



VF1Jskull1 said:


> hey is it me or is there something wrong with the silver/natural P1 as compared to a black P1?...
> 
> if the graph is true i want an exchange for a black one since i preordered a natural/silver one....


:laughing: It's the luxeon lottery.


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## tsask (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*



chevrofreak said:


> If anyone is swayed by these graphs to purchase a Fenix light, 4sevens' www.fenix-store.com is the place to go.


 
I agree! I sent Gary and email and later that same day TODAY! my P1 is on the way fro Hotlanta. GA !!!


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## jsr (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*



LowBat said:


> :laughing: It's the luxeon lottery.


 
I noticed the same thing and stated in another thread in the LED forum.

Can the flux range for a T-bin really result in a 200+ Lux difference?

The R123A curves can be explained solely by a difference in VF, even if the flux range was the same. But for the CR123A curves, the VF difference shouldn't affect output (only runtime), so the difference can only be due to a difference in flux. It's still hard for me to believe that much of a difference (almost 20%!) can be had within the same flux bin.


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## Planterz (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

Chevro's graphs don't show Lux output, they're just comparitive numbers. But yeah, it looks like the lottery means that one light is putting out 200 "whatevers" more light than the other.


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## Mags (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

over 2000 LUX for the P1???????


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## jsr (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

Sorry, I thought the output was in Lux (since most people use meters and those tend to read in Lux). Yeah, 200 of whatever, but that still seems too much of a difference due to flux bin range (about 17% diff).


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## chevrofreak (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

The numbers are infact in lux, although exagerated by my light meter, it still works perfectly fine for runtime tests.


The difference in lux can easily be explained by luxeon lottery. T flux Luxeons can be between 67.2 and 87.4 lumens, and that's a big difference.

Say a particular emitter puts out 67.2 lumens with a forward voltage of 3.51, its efficiency will be far lower than one that does 87.4 lumens at 3.27v.

Binned at 700mA the 3.27 VF led with a flux of 87.4 lumens has an efficiency of 38.18 lumens per watt.

The other LED that is binned at 3.51 volts and 67.2 lumens has an efficiency of 27.35 lumens per watt.

That was all assuming a J voltage bin, if they have varying Vf bins then it could vary even more.

In reality I can't even see the difference in brightness between the two P1's, and I'd like to think I'm fairly sensitive to brightness differences.

Ni-MH added to the L1T graph.


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## LowBat (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*



chevrofreak said:


> Ni-MH added to the L1T graph.


 Thanks! Could you also add the Sanyo NiMH L1P results to the same graph for comparison? I see you have already run that test.


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## chevrofreak (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*



LowBat said:


> Thanks! Could you also add the Sanyo NiMH L1P results to the same graph for comparison? I see you have already run that test.


 
done


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## LowBat (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

Thanks chevrofreak for all your work. So it appears the L1T on high is almost the same as the L1P.


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## Planterz (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

Not to be a pain, but how about the NiMHs running L2P on on cell vs the L1T?


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## chevrofreak (May 25, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*



Planterz said:


> Not to be a pain, but how about the NiMHs running L2P on on cell vs the L1T?


 
Added.

L2T Ni-MH and another P1 runtime with a JSBurly's RCR123.

The L2T Ni-MH graph shows brighter, I dont think it is, but I'm also pretty sure I had the lights lined up the same. 

The JSBurly's R123 got about 1/2 the runtime of the generic "900mAh" cells. I have 2 cells so I fired the second one up in it too. If the second cell runs longer I'll take the first one out.


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## Planterz (May 26, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

Thanks Chevro, you rock.:rock:

The L2P/L1P head/body combo still looks like the way to go for a single AA Fenix, unless you must have the low output mode.


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## chevrofreak (May 26, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*



Planterz said:


> Thanks Chevro, you rock.:rock:
> 
> The L2P/L1P head/body combo still looks like the way to go for a single AA Fenix, unless you must have the low output mode.


 
Keep in mind that it was an exceptional L2P, it was brighter than most. The low mode on the L1T is a lot better than the twistie clickie tailcap mod IMO


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## jsr (May 26, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*



chevrofreak said:


> In reality I can't even see the difference in brightness between the two P1's, and I'd like to think I'm fairly sensitive to brightness differences.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Thanks chevro for all the work and explanation. Good to know the difference in output isn't really "seeable".


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## nerdgineer (May 26, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*



chevrofreak said:


> ...The Civictor has less runtime and brightness than the L1P...


I thought I'd add another data point about the Civictor. I've just received 3 which I preordered from 4sevens and - being concerned in light of the rutime performance shown above - I immediately did a low tech run time test on mine.

I put an AA nimh (previously measured at 1650 mah capacity by my Crosman BC900 charger, and hot off a Rayovac PSP charger) into my Civictor and took light measurements with an old analog light meter. The meter is a GE 213 foot-candle meter which I eyeball so it's not as precise as an automated digital setup but it puts me in the ballpark at least. 

I got a curve shaped very much like a typical L1P nimh curve: 90% at 45 min, 80% at 65 min, 70% at 90 min, 67% from 100 to 120 min, 57% at 130 min, 43% at 136 min, and 33% at 140 min. My curve is kind of jumpy because of eyeball error and I can't get an excel plot to post, but the resulting curve looks like a cross between Chevrofreak's L1P nimh curve and the one at Lighthound - except scaled for my reduced battery capacity.

This suggests to that the run time behavior of at least my Civictor is pretty close to that of the L1P, which is good news to me and suggests that at least some (many?) other Civictor's can fulfill the goal of being a twisty L1P - or at least twisty L1 regular. I haven't tried my Civictor with a lithium as I'm too cheap to burn one up on a test, but I hope others may provide more check/confirmation tests in the future.

Also, using a single fresh battery switched from light to light, I measured the instantaneous output among my 3 Civictors and an L1P. I found they matched to within less than 10%: top was one Civictor, L1P was second, and the other Civictors followed, but close behind, so again, I don't have any measurement which indicates the Civictor is not "like a L1P".

Samples vary (don't we all know), batteries vary, etc. so YMMV, but this is what I've measured so far.

Some other Civictor details: the glass lens does not appear to be AR coated and it appears to be Type II anodizing as I put a tiny scratch in the tail getting a split ring through both holes. My version doesn't have the "slot" in the tail found by some which allows it to tail stand when using a larger split ring so I use the micro-split rings I got from another CPFer which go through both holes - like in my L1Ps. The color on all 3 Civictors was good, very little tinting.

Just for you all's information...


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## chevrofreak (May 27, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

L2T on low with Energizer E2 lithiums added. 22.5 hours until regulation drops out.

The L2T will run at near high level brightness for a while on low with lithium cells, then when they taper off in voltage it dims to a regulatable level. This says to me that low mode wont work with a Li-Ion cell in the L1T. The low level problem isnt there with Ni-MH cells.


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## chevrofreak (May 27, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

I've also decided to remove the silver P1 runtime because too many of you who dont understand how LED's in the same bin can have this much brightness difference have been bothering 4sevens trying to get your orders changed. 

It's a simple fact, there is this much difference in brightness between all production luxeon flashlights that arent lumen tuned like the HDS lights are. The only reason you havent complained before now is that you didn't know the difference existed.


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## chevrofreak (May 27, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

I re-ran the Civictor with a Ni-MH cell after the alkaline test showed that it was running far longer than I had expected. The previous Ni-MH line was pathetic at best, and the lithium wasn't much better. The new Ni-MH shows a great improvement and it actually ran a bit longer than my L1P did on the same cell. I'm running it again right now with a Battery Station lithium and if that shows a large increase in runtime I will do it again with an Energizer E2 lithium as well.


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## nerdgineer (May 27, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

About the Civictor, I did 3 things before my run time test:
1. I wiped off the end of the body (on my pants) 
2. I wiped off the retaining ring inside the head (with a Q tip)
3. and when I turned it on, I made sure it had a positive contact. I didn't kill it or anything, but I did feel the contact bottom out.

Those things are common sense for most twisty switches and may have reduced resistance in the electrical path and improved performance.


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## chevrofreak (May 27, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

I had previously wiped off the bare end of the body, but perhaps something was on the contact ring in the head that I didn't notice.


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## chevrofreak (May 27, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

The latest runtime with a Battery Station lithium AA is excellent, I am quite amazed at how well this light runs!

There does seem to have been a contact problem that just magically disappeared. I appologize for that, I should have cleaned the contact points prior to running the light.


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## jar3ds (May 27, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

chev...

again thank you for all this work... its so sad that companies don't post these kind of data on their own sites!

Just a thought... if you have any 14500's... i'd be interested how that would compare on high to the other 1.Xv batteries...


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## chevrofreak (May 27, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

No 14500's available 


The L1T wont work on low with a 14500 anyway which kinda sucks.


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## paulr (May 27, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

Thanks for all these tests, Chevro. A few comments:

1) From what I understand, the L2p head gets slightly higher efficiency than the L1p/L1T/L2T by not having to get reasonable performance from one alkaline AA. That is, the main thing the L1P circuit gains you is the ability to use alkalines. So it would be very helpful if we could see a runtime curve for the L1T with an alkaline AA (we've gotten several for the L1p already).

2) The P1 similarly is supposed to be a regulated light with voltage boost. So I don't see what's so interesting about the high flux from a 3.6V RCR cell. Basically it means the LED is running direct drive at that voltage, and maybe overdriven somewhat. If that's the kind of light you want, that's why the Orb Raw was invented. With the P1, there's two possibilities: a) the LED is overdriven badly on an RCR and shouldn't be used that way; or b) the light is operating safely on an RCR and therefore, at least for folks who want maximum flux, the P1's boost circuit isn't as powerful as it should be (compare to the HDS B60 etc). Neither possibility says anything great about the P1.

3) I feel that the L1p has made 1x123 led lights uninteresting except for the highest performance ones (HDS, McLux PD). The P1's main attraction is its smaller size, but if you're after small size, a CR2 version would be even more attractive. So I think Fenix should make a "P0" which uses a CR2 and is as small as possible.

4) I guess this is the wrong thread for it but as long as we're talking about size comparisons, I'd be interested in seeing a photo of a P1 next to a Firefly.


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## 4sevens (May 27, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*



paulr said:


> 4) I guess this is the wrong thread for it but as long as we're talking about size comparisons, I'd be interested in seeing a photo of a P1 next to a Firefly.



Here's the P1 close to a Firefly. Not exactly next to, but 3 doors down.
Keep in mind that the cr123 the P1 uses has roughly 2x more energy
than the cr2 the firefly uses.


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## abvidledUK (May 27, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

On same graph / extra graph, could we see plots of CV v L1P, thanks


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## chevrofreak (May 27, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

I'll get around to comparing all the AA lights on a larger image so it doesn't look so cluttered. I'd like to finish up, and redo some tests. 

It seems that the Energizer E2 lithium AA's I've been using weren't very good quality, so I edited my first post begging for donations so I can finish these tests


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## Planterz (May 28, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

Wow, I'm supprised at how close the runtimes are with NiMHs vs lithiums on the L2T. Seems like the only advantage lithiums have is a slight tail at the end (when you should yank the NiMHs to prevent overdischarge damage). For regular usage, NiMHs are clearly the way to go.


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## nerdgineer (May 28, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

I wanted to add my appreciation to that expressed by others for Chevro's hard work, integrity, and painstaking attention in generating all this data, and to his generosity for sharing it all with us. Chevro, you are an asset to the community.

I also wanted to clarify something about measurements in general. Viewers will note that Chevro's graphs are labeled precisely as "intensity" - i.e. the brightness of the light measured (presumably) some distance away at the central hot spot. In this measurement, the Civictor comes out about 10% or lower than the L1P which is I believe due to the Civictor having regular glass in it (about 10% surface reflectance) rather than the L1P's AR glass. 

When I made an earlier informal comparison between the L1P and the Civictor, I measured the "output", i.e. the total number of photons coming out of the light, by putting the head of the light hard against my light meter cell, and this is quite different from measuring intensity. In this measurement, the Civictor's output was pretty much _exactly_ the same as the L1P's. 

These two measurements are NOT inconsistent. I noted elsewhere that light backscattered by the lens does not just disappear because the space behind the lens is more or less all reflectorized. It just bounces around and (except for a small part which goes out the Luxeon hole) hits the glass again and again until it gets out. It is however scattered in different directions so it no longer contributes to the hotspot, but instead becomes part of the spill. An "output" type measurement (like with an integrating sphere) would capture these wayward photons and still record them accurately.

So, AR glass does not increase the "output" in a reflectorized light - or rather non-AR glass does not reduce it - and my interpretation of Chevro's and my measurements is that the _*output*_ of the Civictor and the L1P more or less exactly match.

It's no guarantee but my measurements so far suggest that I probably got R bin lux's in all 3 of my Civictors....

I know the measurement numbers can be confusing but this is an important point for those considering getting a Civictor vs. one of the Fenix Lxx's.

Thanks for your patience, all.


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## chevrofreak (May 29, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

First post updated explaining the crappy L1T performance on low.


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## chevrofreak (May 29, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

new L1T runtime chart added


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## chevrofreak (May 30, 2006)

*Re: New Fenix light runtimes P1 L1T L2T and Civictor*

I may have jumped to the conclusion that the L1T was defective a bit too soon. I thoroughly cleaned off the bare threads and low is working better now. When the L2T low Ni-MH graph is done I'll run it again.


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## chevrofreak (May 31, 2006)

Since I cleaned the threads on the L1T it's working perfectly. I just finished the low runtime for a Rayovac Maximum Plus alkaline and it did 6 hours 52 minutes to 50%!!!!


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## skalomax (Jun 1, 2006)

Is it the Higher the Nmah is the higher the output?!


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## nerdgineer (Jun 1, 2006)

Chevro, you might remove the Civictor curve from your post #18 as it shows the old, faulty Civictor E2 curve instead of the new shiny one in your edited first post. Great work you've been doing, and much appreciated.


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## Simple Man (Jun 1, 2006)

Chevrofreak, thanks for all the tireless work and information you put out. I've got an L1T waiting for me at home and you just keep feeding my gotta-have-all-the-info-possible streak. You rock.

Thanks


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## chevrofreak (Jun 1, 2006)

skalomax said:


> Is it the Higher the Nmah is the higher the output?!


 

Typically no. Which graph are you refering to?



nerdgineer said:


> Chevro, you might remove the Civictor curve from your post #18 as it shows the old, faulty Civictor E2 curve instead of the new shiny one in your edited first post. Great work you've been doing, and much appreciated.


 
I updated it with the new line. It seems the V1 uses the same circuit as the L1 afterall, and it even says so on the circuit board.

BTW, I finished and added the L1T low line for an Energizer E2 lithium. Over 14 hours to 50%

Everyone, do yourselves a favor and clean the threads in your L1T/L2T very thoroughly and it will save you a lot of headaches.


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## Zeide (Jun 1, 2006)

I have an L2T coming tomorrow and I would like to know how to clean the
threads and with what. Just a new member here who has gone nuts buying
flashlights. Thanks for your time. Zeide
PS. Let me ask why as well.


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## chevrofreak (Jun 1, 2006)

Zeide said:


> I have an L2T coming tomorrow and I would like to know how to clean the
> threads and with what. Just a new member here who has gone nuts buying
> flashlights. Thanks for your time. Zeide
> PS. Let me ask why as well.


 
I personally use an old cotton shirt draped over my thumb, then I use my thumbnail to press the shirt into the thread. Start right near the O-ring and turn the body counterclockwise, this will make it "screw" out of your fingers and drag the cloth down the entire length of the thread. It's more difficult inside the head, sometimes requiring the use of your pinky or a cotton swab lightly dampened with rubbing alcohol.


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## skalomax (Jun 2, 2006)

I was reffering to the L2T, it looks like it started higher on Alk and the Nimh did not. Let say i buy some rechargeable AA with 2500 will it be brighter than 2300 , will it still be regulated as good. Also where can i buy some quality 2300 AA batteries for my L2T? thanks and great Graphs.


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## Ikonomi (Jun 3, 2006)

skalomax said:


> Let say i buy some rechargeable AA with 2500 will it be brighter than 2300 , will it still be regulated as good.



No, the 2500 mAh batteries will not make your light brighter than the 2300 mAh batteries, all things equal. The number (2500, 2300, 1650, etc.) refers to milliamp hours (mAh), which is a measurement of the electrical capacity of the battery. So... a Fenix L2T with two 2500 mAh batteries will run in regulation longer than an L2T with two 2300 mAh batteries, but it will not be brighter.

Basically.


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## chevrofreak (Jun 3, 2006)

skalomax said:


> I was reffering to the L2T, it looks like it started higher on Alk and the Nimh did not. Let say i buy some rechargeable AA with 2500 will it be brighter than 2300 , will it still be regulated as good. Also where can i buy some quality 2300 AA batteries for my L2T? thanks and great Graphs.


 
I didn't run the L2T on alkalines.

On low the L2T will start out brighter than its regulated level for some reason, and I think it is due to the input voltage. That would explain the higher initial output on lithiums. It is pretty much meant to be run on Ni-MH cells most of the time.

On high it was oddly slightly dimmer with lithium than Ni-MH.


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## chevrofreak (Jun 3, 2006)

Actually I just fired up the L2T on high again with Ni-MH cells and that higher brightness isn't there. I probably had the light a little bit too close to the meter for the first run, so when this new run is done I'll replace the line.


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## chevrofreak (Jun 3, 2006)

L2T high line was redone and I made sure the light was aligned right. The lines match much more closely now.

I bought some more Rayovac alkalines and am going to do the L2T high and low with them now.


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## chevrofreak (Jun 3, 2006)

L2T high on alkalines has been done and added. I bought some SF123's locally ($5.99 a pair, ouch! ) to run in the P1 to see if they performed much better than the Sanyo cells I normally use based on the graph this_is_nascar made. That is finishing up now and will be added later. L2T low on alkaline will be performed next.


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## javafool (Jun 3, 2006)

Hurrican season is here and the L1T appears to be an ideal flashlight. 8 - 12 hours using a single AA battery on low depending on battery chemistry. And low is very bright for doing tasks around the house or close-up work in the yard with the option to kick it up a notch if necessary. I have one but may need to add at least one more before things get active.


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## skalomax (Jun 3, 2006)

Thanks for the Help


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## chevrofreak (Jun 3, 2006)

P1 line with an SF123 added. Still not the 140 or so minutes this_is_nascar got, which could be due to the forward voltage of the LED.


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## chevrofreak (Jun 5, 2006)

L2T low alkaline added. It managed over 18 hours regulated and I find that very impressive.


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## Seth (Jun 5, 2006)

chevrofreak said:


> L2T low alkaline added. It managed over 18 hours regulated and I find that very impressive.


Agreed.

When I first saw your runtime graphs of the L2T on low, I thought to myself "there must be some damn good regulation circuitry in this light!"

Seems like a good recommendation for ppl afraid of power-outages... A definite improvement over the Nichia-equipped lights I usually recommend for this specific task.

chevro, thanks for doing all those runtime-graphs! :goodjob: 

Seth


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## thei (Jun 5, 2006)

Probably not quite the right place to ask this—but it is runtime related. I have an L1T, and am considering getting 14500 batteries (and charger) for it, but was wondering what sort of runtimes I could expect using them, as I’ve no idea?


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## chevrofreak (Jun 10, 2006)

I bought some Duracell 2650mAh AA's for testing and they have been added to the L2T and L1T high graphs. Civictor V1 is pending, as well as low runtimes for the L2T and L1T.


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## Ikonomi (Jun 11, 2006)

Those Duracell 2650s are quite impressive. Those are the re-branded Sanyos, right?


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## chevrofreak (Jun 11, 2006)

Ikonomi said:


> Those Duracell 2650s are quite impressive. Those are the re-branded Sanyos, right?


 
They are indeed pretty nice. I'm not sure if they're Sanyo, but it is pretty likely.

Civictor V1 didnt run any longer, but it was brighter throughout the run.


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## HonorKnight (Jun 12, 2006)

Ikonomi said:


> Those Duracell 2650s are quite impressive. Those are the re-branded Sanyos, right?


Duracell is one of the oldest and biggest if not the biggest manufacturer of batteries in the world. It's owned by the Gillette Corporation now, which is in turn owned by Proctor and Gamble. I can't say for sure, but I find it hard to believe that they would be a rebrand of anything. I did some quick online research and didn't find anything that connected them.


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## chevrofreak (Jun 12, 2006)

HonorKnight, their 2500mAh cells were made by Sanyo.

L1T low runtime with the 2650's added. 10.6 hours to 50%


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## Ikonomi (Jun 13, 2006)

I've decided to buy myself an L1T as a late birthday present based on your graphs, chevrofreak. Thanks for your extensive research. This is one of the most informative threads I've seen on CPF.

Really, really great work.


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## chevrofreak (Jun 13, 2006)

Ikonomi said:


> I've decided to buy myself an L1T as a late birthday present based on your graphs, chevrofreak. Thanks for your extensive research. This is one of the most informative threads I've seen on CPF.
> 
> Really, really great work.


 
I'm glad you appreciate it 

Did you order from 4sevens www.fenix-store.com?


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## Ikonomi (Jun 13, 2006)

chevrofreak said:


> I'm glad you appreciate it
> 
> Did you order from 4sevens www.fenix-store.com?



Haven't ordered yet (gotta wait for Friday!), but I'm certainly going with 4sevens.


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## chevrofreak (Jun 14, 2006)

L2T low Duracell 2650mAh Ni-MH done. 23 hours 6 minutes and like 15 seconds to 50%


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## nightrider (Jun 16, 2006)

Thanks chevrofreak! Good going.

I see you've added a regulated 3.0v RCR123 to the P1 runtime graph. Looks pretty nice at about 55 minutes of perfect regulation. That's what I was hoping it would look like. 



BTW,
What is the mah rating of that battery?


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## damon (Jul 14, 2006)

chevrofreak

i have a request could u do a runtime of the P1 using AAA batt and then compare it to the L0P?


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## Lite_me (Jul 15, 2006)

> i have a request could u do a runtime of the P1 using AAA batt and then compare it to the L0P?



:lolsign: Ha ha ha ha ha .....Sorry,, I thought that was too funny.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Jul 16, 2006)

I'm sold! Just as soon as I can scrape up the cash for a Money Order, I'm sending off for a P1!

It MIGHT be that an L1T or L1P would do what I need... but the beamshot I saw of P1 is KILLER for my needs! I have a pretty good supply of primary 123s and some Li-Ion 123 as well so I'll be good to go when it arrives.

THANKS Chevro!!!!!


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## frisco (Jul 18, 2006)

Hey Chev,

Many compliments on your many hours of graphs !

Just wondering if the L1T/14500 is in the hopper for a test run?

Thanks, frisco


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## chevrofreak (Jul 19, 2006)

Frisco I'm sending the lights back to fenix-store tomorrow now that all testing of his lights is done. I also don't have a 14500 to use, sorry


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