# good inserts in CCMT 21.5* and DCMT 21.5* sizes?



## wquiles (Jan 4, 2010)

I got some new lathe tools from M100 and they use the CCMT 21.5* and DCMT 21.5* insert size. My usual supplier of Al-specific inserts (www.latheinserts.com) does not have them in this small size - any other suppliers?

Besides the Al-specific, what would be a good insert grade in these sizes for soft metals (Al, Copper) and Mild Steel?

Will


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## alexmin (Jan 5, 2010)

Will,

what is a major difference between CCMT and DCMT.
When it is better to use one vs. another


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## KowShak (Jan 5, 2010)

alexmin said:


> Will,
> 
> what is a major difference between CCMT and DCMT.
> When it is better to use one vs. another



The corner angle on a CCMT insert is 80 degrees where as with DCMT it is 55 degrees, the DCMT has a sharper angled corner than CCMT which means you can use it for profiling, it will go into places that a CCMT insert will not. Conversely, the fact that it is thinner and sharper means that it is not as strong as a CCMT insert.


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## wquiles (Jan 5, 2010)

alexmin said:


> Will,
> 
> what is a major difference between CCMT and DCMT.
> When it is better to use one vs. another



The shape is different, and therefore not compatible - you need different tool holders for each type. The first letter of the insert tells you the shape, as you can see here:
http://www.anconline.com/nomenclatures/nomenclatureinsert1.htm

And for specific examples from Ebay:

ccmt 21.51:
http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=p3907.m38.l1313&_nkw=ccmt+21.51&_sacat=See-All-Categories


dcmt 21.51:
http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=p3907.m38.l1313&_nkw=dcmt+21.51&_sacat=See-All-Categories


Will


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## PhotonFanatic (Jan 5, 2010)

wquiles said:


> I got some new lathe tools from M100 and they use the CCMT 21.5* and DCMT 21.5* insert size. My usual supplier of Al-specific inserts (www.latheinserts.com) does not have them in this small size - any other suppliers?
> 
> Besides the Al-specific, what would be a good insert grade in these sizes for soft metals (Al, Copper) and Mild Steel?
> 
> Will



Rani Tool has some CCGT and DCGT in those sizes. These come either coated or uncoated. I just bought some uncoated DCGT 21.51 $8.21 each for ten pieces. Haven't used these yet, but they look interesting, and a bit cheaper than the Sandvik ones that I like.


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## Anglepoise (Jan 5, 2010)

wquiles said:


> I
> 
> Besides the Al-specific, what would be a good insert grade in these sizes for soft metals (Al, Copper) and Mild Steel?
> 
> Will




In the last year, I seem to be using H10 for just about everything I machine.
Now I do very little machining on steel so can not comment on that.

Great in Al and Ti. Also SS.
For copper, I use an old real diamond tipped insert. Its kept just for copper and is perfect.


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## alexmin (Jan 5, 2010)

Thank you guys.
I do understand that CCMT and DCMT have different shape  and need different holders.

What I really wanted to find out is something like this: "DCMT gives better finish(or worth) on unobtanium but will chatter if depth of the cut is more than 0.2" DCMT can be used with positive(or neutral) rake angle .... Do not use DCMT on more than 2000000 rpm..." etc.


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## PhotonFanatic (Jan 5, 2010)

alexmin said:


> Thank you guys.
> I do understand that CCMT and DCMT have different shape  and need different holders.
> 
> What I really wanted to find out is something like this: "DCMT gives better finish(or worth) on unobtanium but will chatter if depth of the cut is more than 0.2" DCMT can be used with positive(or neutral) rake angle .... Do not use DCMT on more than 2000000 rpm..." etc.



alexmin,

You think that we know that? 

If most of the guys are like me, we've learned from doing. For people like Precisionworks and a few others who are in the trade, they not only have learned by doing, but by studying also.

I would recommend that you contact your local Sandvik distributor and ask for a copy of their Small Parts Machining catalog, plus their catalog/book called _Metalcutting Technical Guide_. While it deals mainly with their tools and inserts, it has a wealth of information on cutting speeds, feeds, etc. All of which will be a bit overwhelming at first, but after the fifth reading, you may have learned a thing or two. :devil:


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## precisionworks (Jan 5, 2010)

Ask any 10 machinists about their favorite insert & you are guaranteed to get 10 different answers ... much like defining "pretty woman", there are lots of variables 








Enter all the data above & the answer pops out 

That chart is located in 
*Metal cutting theory and practice (By David A. Stephenson, John S. Agapiou)*

About $140 at bookstores, available on inter-library loan.

As Fred mentions, there is a lot of excellent material available from vendors. Sandvik is probably THE best for documentation. KennaMetal has a lot of online info. Vic at Rani Tool worked in a shop for 20+ years & is good at selecting shapes & coatings. Cutting Tool Engineering has a wealth of information, sometimes techie but often useful: http://www.cuttingtoolengineering.com/

Way back when, before eBay, carbide inserts were expensive & you got chewed out if you broke a corner at work. Now the manufacturers are hungry for business & give mill tooling & lathe tooling away for free if you commit to purchase enough inserts per year. 

Information on inserts gets outdated rather quickly as new substrates are developed & as new coatings are brought to market. Coatings are the single biggest reason that inserts today can run at speeds & feeds that were thought impossible only 5 years ago.

Pick something that other people like, try that, add shapes as needed. Everybody want to settle on one shape & size, self included, but that's hard to do. Which is the reason that there are so many ANSI-ISO shapes.


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## TOOLING GURU (Jan 5, 2010)

You could always call me. :twothumbs Our Alu-Pro line is perfect for this. 

Vic 
Rani Tool Corp
888.554.7264


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## StrikerDown (Jan 5, 2010)

Vic,

Welcome to the forum! Hang around and drop an occasional tip, I am sure there are a bunch of guys here that will be calling for tooling!


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## wquiles (Jan 5, 2010)

TOOLING GURU said:


> You could always call me. :twothumbs Our Alu-Pro line is perfect for this.
> 
> Vic
> Rani Tool Corp
> 888.554.7264



Awesome Vic - welcome to our sub-forum!

I will be calling you tomorrow AM as I need to get both CCMT 21.5* and DCMT 21.5* 

Will


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## darkzero (Jan 5, 2010)

wquiles said:


> I got some new lathe tools from M100 and they use the CCMT 21.5* and DCMT 21.5* insert size. My usual supplier of Al-specific inserts (www.latheinserts.com) does not have them in this small size - any other suppliers?
> 
> Besides the Al-specific, what would be a good insert grade in these sizes for soft metals (Al, Copper) and Mild Steel?
> 
> Will


 
A while back I got these: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2991410&postcount=10

_VP7615: Fine grain substrate. Primary application: Finishing and semi-finishing of aluminum and non-ferrous materials, continuous cuts. Secondary application: Finishing and semi-finishing of high temperature alloys, continuous cuts. Gold, application ValTurn._

I use them on the two smaller boring bars I got from you.

They were a great deal & the seller sold them for a while (ebay). I haven't checked to see if he's still selling them.


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## precisionworks (Jan 5, 2010)

> Our Alu-Pro line is perfect for this.
> 
> Vic
> Rani Tool Corp



:welcome:

Glad to see that you came to play in The Sand Box


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## wquiles (Jan 6, 2010)

Just got off the phone talking to Vic, and ordered a pack of 10x for both the CCGT 21.51 and DCGT 21.51 Alu-Pro inserts 

Will


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## darkzero (Jan 6, 2010)

wquiles said:


> Just got off the phone talking to Vic, and ordered a pack of 10x for both the CCGT 21.51 and DCGT 21.51 Alu-Pro inserts
> 
> Will


 
I know you won't but don't forget the pics when they arrive!


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## precisionworks (Jan 6, 2010)

> don't forget the pics when they arrive!


Please don't encourage Will. I honestly believe that he wears his camera 24/7/365 :nana:


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## wquiles (Jan 6, 2010)

precisionworks said:


> Please don't encourage Will. I honestly believe that he wears his camera 24/7/365 :nana:



Not quite 24/7/365, but almost 100% of the time that I am in the shop, my camera is there on one of the work benches. Taking pictures to document what I am doing is well beyond second nature to me - in fact, it feels weird to me if I am working in my "shop" without my camera - like something is missing :candle:


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## wquiles (Jan 6, 2010)

By the way, while searching on Ebay for inserts, I ran accross these ones: diamond tipped inserts. When are these inserts useful?
PRECISION DIAMOND TOOL 7592 ( DCMT 21.51 ) INSERTS


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## precisionworks (Jan 6, 2010)

That's a good question ... it LOOKS like a PCD tipped insert, but I've never seen any PCD for much under $40-$50 each:

http://americas.kyocera.com/kicc/pdf/Brochure-FlyerKPD001.pdf

http://www.kyocera.com.sg/products/cuttingtools/pdf/e-d_kpd001.pdf



> When are these inserts useful?


For most any material that's nonferrous, especially if that material is highly abrasive to conventional carbide or ceramic inserts. Under some cutting conditions, PCD life is 100X greater than the best coated carbide insert.






Also notice the sfpm, roughly 300% higher than carbide :thumbsup:


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## TOOLING GURU (Jan 8, 2010)

PCD - Polycrystalline Diamond

All non-ferrous materials such as aluminum, brass, copper, graphite, G10,all plastics etc. can be machined with PCD. The advantage with PCD is tool life, and surface finish and it's ability to hold tight tolerances. Mostly used in high volume applications. We do sell a fair bit to small run shops too since some parts require an extremely nice surface finish, or the parts are very thin walled and require a tool that exerts very little cutting force.

PCD can be ground to a much finer edge than carbide which reduces cutting forces and provides the better finish. Because of it's hardness, acheivable SFM's are substansally higher. 8000 easily. We have another material CVD which tops out at about 15,000 SFM. I've never seen a lathe yet with a chuck or rpm's that will run that fast unless the part has a huge diameter!

Disadvantages - cost, and the lack of chip control. Go to our website www.ranitool.com and click on the "Rani Tool on You Tube" link on the left and you will be able to access a nice video demonstrating an aluminum part being machined with carbide, standard "flat top" PCD, and our 3D chipbreaker PCD. The finishes on the part aren't that great since we couldn't use coolant since we wanted you to see the cutting action of the tools. We are the only ones able to control a chip with PCD diamond.

CCMW-21.5_ PDC $ 54.90 - 10% standard flat top
DCMW-21.5_ PDC $ 55.73 - 10% standard flat top

CCGT-21.5_ -CB1 or CB2 PDC $ 82.85 - 10% chipbreaker style
DCGT-21.5_ -CB1 or CB2 PDC $ 85.75 - 10% chipbreaker style

As Barry mentioned tool life can be up to 100 times that of carbide. Just don't break it

Another option is in our ALU-Pro insert line we have the ALP-XL grade which is a TiB2 coating, these will last 3 - 5 times that of polished carbide.

I hope this helps and doesn't sound like a commercial.

Vic


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## PhotonFanatic (Jan 8, 2010)

Hey, Vic--keep that up and the powers that be will make you become a dealer on CPF. 

What is the TiB2 coating? I'm not familiar with that one.


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## wquiles (Jan 8, 2010)

TOOLING GURU said:


> PCD - Polycrystalline Diamond
> 
> All non-ferrous materials such as aluminum, brass, copper, graphite, G10,all plastics etc. can be machined with PCD. The advantage with PCD is tool life, and surface finish and it's ability to hold tight tolerances. Mostly used in high volume applications. We do sell a fair bit to small run shops too since some parts require an extremely nice surface finish, or the parts are very thin walled and require a tool that exerts very little cutting force.
> 
> ...



Vic, no worries, not a commercial - just giving us good information as to available products 

By the way, the video on the PCD was great, but I found even more impressive the video on the right, doing turning on fully hardened pieces :devil:

Will


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## precisionworks (Jan 8, 2010)

> I hope this helps and doesn't sound like a commercial.


Sounds fine to me, but I'm not a moderator. We appreciate the depth of knowledge that you bring to the forum 

It's nice to have a person like you, who sells to hundreds of shops that run every possible machine & material.


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## alexmin (Jan 8, 2010)

Vic,

do you have CCMT and DCMT 21.5* that will work for stainless?


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## saltytri (Jan 8, 2010)

Vic, there is a big difference between someone who pops up with unsolicited and improper advertising and a gentleman like you who offers real expertise and is willing to talk to us on the phone and cheerfully take relatively small orders. I hope that you'll stick around.

And the inserts you sent me for AL are working out great! Here they are doing their job in a 3/4" 3-flute Sumitomo end mill:







David


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## wquiles (Jan 8, 2010)

PhotonFanatic said:


> I would recommend that you contact your local Sandvik distributor and ask for a copy of their Small Parts Machining catalog, plus their catalog/book called _Metalcutting Technical Guide_. While it deals mainly with their tools and inserts, it has a wealth of information on cutting speeds, feeds, etc. All of which will be a bit overwhelming at first, but after the fifth reading, you may have learned a thing or two. :devil:



Fred,

I finally called today and asked to get those two catalogs that you have recommended to us (several times, if I might add!)


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## wquiles (Jan 8, 2010)

saltytri said:


> Vic, there is a big difference between someone who pops up with unsolicited and improper advertising and a gentleman like you who offers real expertise and is willing to talk to us on the phone and cheerfully take relatively small orders. I hope that you'll stick around.
> 
> And the inserts you sent me for AL are working out great! Here they are doing their job in a 3/4" 3-flute Sumitomo end mill:
> 
> (snip pic)



David - at what RPM are you running that end mill?


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## saltytri (Jan 8, 2010)

wquiles said:


> David - at what RPM are you running that end mill?



3000 rpm for smooth cuts in AL, because it is my mill's top speed.

The inserts are APHT-1003 from Vic.

The Sumitomo indexable mills are great. I also have a 1.25" that takes 5 inserts. See them here: http://www.sumicarbide.com/pdf/mill/Mill_WaveWEM.pdf


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## precisionworks (Jan 8, 2010)

That is one bad looking insert :thumbsup:


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## wquiles (Jan 13, 2010)

As promised, here are the photos - also have one of the slightly larger Aluminum-specific CCGT 32.51 (from www.latheinserts.com) for comparison:




















Thanks again Vic 

Will


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## StrikerDown (Jan 13, 2010)

Those are very purdy!


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## mototraxtech (Jan 16, 2010)

I just purchased 5 of each of the following from Matt at quality machine tools. They are now a tooling dealer for TMX. I got ccgt 21.51(aluminum version of ccmt), dcgt 21.51(aluminum version of dcmt) and ccgt 35.51(aluminum version of ccmt). They were all about $6 a piece and Matt seemed to think pretty highly of them. The steel ones were $5 a piece and I'm pretty sure that was before bulk discount of 10 or more. Have not received them yet or even the lathe for that matter but you might want to check his out. He is also sending me TMX's insert catalog that he states has a lot of information on them and when to use what and stuff.

Hope I helped!


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## precisionworks (Jan 17, 2010)

> Matt at quality machine tools. They are now a tooling dealer for TMX


TMX makes the aluminum inserts that are sold by http://latheinserts.com/ . Very well made, IMO, and prices are half that of Iscar, Valenite, Seco, etc. Don't forget that TMX still has special pricing on a bunch of items through the end of January:

http://www.toolmex.com/documentation/bison/ToolingPkgPromoEndUser_web.pdf

My TMX drill chucks & shell mill arbors came from Johnson Cutting Tools but Matt may be able to get those as well.


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## TOOLING GURU (Jan 18, 2010)

Thanks, Will. Your pic's look better than mine!!! 

Vic


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