# W A R N I N G - BS Battery Explodes



## JimH (Dec 18, 2007)

Last night a Battery Station Lithium AA battery spontaneously exploded and almost burned down my house.

I was sitting in my easy chair watching TV and reading a book when I heard a loud popping sound. I jumped up and saw copious amounts of smoke and fumes coming out of my stainless steel tool chest.







I opened the top drawer where most of the smoke was coming from and saw nothing out of the ordinary. By this time smoke and fumes had filled the room making it extremely difficult to breath. I then opened the drawer below the top drawer - 3 inch flames came shooting out of the drawer - breathing was now impossible. 

I escaped outside the house to catch my breath. By the time I located a fire extinguisher and returned to the room with the tool chest the fire was distinguishing of its own accord. It was still impossible to breath in the room so I opened a bunch of windows and turned on the whole house exhaust fan that is normally only used in the summer.

I estimate that the flames lasted a little over a minute - more than enough time to set my house on fire had the lantern containing the batteries not been contained in the steel tool chest.

I was very surprised at the very large amount of smoke, noxious fumes and fire that were created by only a single AA battery.

The drawer containing the lantern with the offending batteries contained a variety of flashlight parts. The contents of the drawer, including the lantern had been undisturbed in the drawer for approximately 8 months. 

I estimate that the batteries were approximately 15 months old and had been used in the lantern for no more than an hour.

I hate to imagine the carnage that would have been caused if the lantern had been stored in one of the many other locations around the house where I keep such things.

Post explosion photos are shown below. The bottom of the lantern was blown completely to the opposite side of the draw by the explosion. I am now on search and destroy mission to rid my house of all Battery Station batteries.


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## coontai (Dec 19, 2007)

man o man...


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## Sinjz (Dec 19, 2007)

Crap. Now BS Lithium AA's too?! I have a bunch of those! 

Glad to hear you're alright though.

edit: untouched for 8 months? Any chance you left it on that whole time? :thinking: Just trying to figure out what set it off.


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## Marduke (Dec 19, 2007)

I'm glad I stick with name brand primary Li AA's (e2's)


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## jugg2 (Dec 19, 2007)

Wow, I am glad no one was hurt, and your house didn't burn down! I wonder what could have caused that?


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## JimH (Dec 19, 2007)

Sinjz said:


> Any chance you left it on that whole time? :thinking: Just trying to figure out what set it off.


I have opened that drawer numerous time over the eight month period, looking for stuff, and never noticed the lantern being on.

I just checked the voltage on the three remaining batteries that were in the lantern. 2 registered 1.75V and one registered 1.76V.


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## fnmag (Dec 19, 2007)

Thankyou for the warning. I'm glad that you acted quickly and are OK. It might be wise to consult a medical doctor due to the fumes that were expelled.


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## AlexGT (Dec 19, 2007)

Spontaneous combustion? Wow! Would love to read the post mortem analysis, did you contact BS? The lining on the chest seems to be very tough for a lithium fire, looks in good shape, any damage to the metal below?


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## raggie33 (Dec 19, 2007)

what scares me evn more is the new litium powered cars imagine the amperage that is involved glad u r ok jim


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## jefft (Dec 19, 2007)

JimH, I'm glad the explosion was contained! Just this morning a came across 10 BS AA lithiums while I was sorting and organizing all of my cells. I guess placing them into a steel ammo box was a good idea. Perhaps taking them to the battery recycling station would be a better idea.


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## Sinjz (Dec 19, 2007)

I think you should change the title of this thread to indicate we are talking about the AAs and not the CR123s.

All my new BS Li-AA's read about 1.95. No used ones at the moment, so I don't know how far down the voltage goes when used or near depleted.


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## AlexGT (Dec 19, 2007)

Aren't the Li AA supposed to read 1.7V?


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## Sinjz (Dec 19, 2007)

I think they are suppose to, but these BS versions don't and never have. :shrug:


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## batterystation (Dec 19, 2007)

I am sorry about that. I wish I could list all the times that all sorts of types and brands of lithium batteries have done this. It is a lot. I am not trying to excuse myself but rather make a very important point. Low percentage in number sold but still happens to all brands. Please everyone be careful when dealing with ALL lithium chemistries. Mostly Polymers right now. They seem to make the biggest fireballs. Please let me know what lights were damaged and I will replace them. Our CR123A is now made in the USA in the hopes of less liklihood of this type of thing happening. That battery passed UL approval too!!! Thousands of dollars spent on making sure it was SAFE! We discontinued this battery under pressure from competition. Please email me and we will make this up to you straight away.


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## DaFABRICATA (Dec 19, 2007)

batterystation said:


> I am sorry about that. I wish I could list all the times that all sorts of types and brands of lithium batteries have done this. It is a lot. I am not trying to excuse myself but rather make a very important point. Low percentage in number sold but still happens to all brands. Please everyone be careful when dealing with ALL lithium chemistries. Mostly Polymers right now. They seem to make the biggest fireballs. Please let me know what lights were damaged and I will replace them. Our CR123A is now made in the USA in the hopes of less liklihood of this type of thing happening. That battery passed UL approval too!!! Thousands of dollars spent on making sure it was SAFE! We discontinued this battery under pressure from competition. Please email me and we will make this up to you straight away.


 


WOW!!! How kind of you to replace the lights that were damaged. I know that things happen beyond the control of anyone, it's just scary when it does.


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## jzmtl (Dec 19, 2007)

So much for safer chemistry in lithium AA cells eh?

Imagine hybrid car sized battery goes like this...


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## raggie33 (Dec 19, 2007)

batterystation said:


> I am sorry about that. I wish I could list all the times that all sorts of types and brands of lithium batteries have done this. It is a lot. I am not trying to excuse myself but rather make a very important point. Low percentage in number sold but still happens to all brands. Please everyone be careful when dealing with ALL lithium chemistries. Mostly Polymers right now. They seem to make the biggest fireballs. Please let me know what lights were damaged and I will replace them. Our CR123A is now made in the USA in the hopes of less liklihood of this type of thing happening. That battery passed UL approval too!!! Thousands of dollars spent on making sure it was SAFE! We discontinued this battery under pressure from competition. Please email me and we will make this up to you straight away.


ya are a good man kevin.ya always take care of ya custermers


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## Spence (Dec 19, 2007)

Wow, that is a frightening story! I would really like to read some of the expert input some of the CPF members could come up with. Do you think the administrators would allow you to double-post this thread and the excellent photos on the "General" forum? I think this qualifies as a public service warning announcement that all CPF members should read, what do you think?
I've got a bunch of BS CR123's in carriers and lights, is there any concern for them?

:sick2:













:thinking:


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## NA8 (Dec 19, 2007)

I think this is the second no name AA lithium battery that went  that I've seen here recently. 

I'd stick to the bunny.


BTW, Did you ever go to see your doctor ? 

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/141137

Depends what the specific lithium chemistry was in the no name battery, but you should check in with a doctor just in case, esp if there are delayed medical complications. I'd take one of the other BS batteries along with you. The hospital's lab might be able to identify poisons with some spiffy machine. 
(I'd tell them to be careful :devil: )

You can do a search in the battery forum for doctor, lithium fire, inhaled fumes, etc for a lot of threads and discussion. 

Oh, since you mentioned fire extinguishers, that's an ugly topic also. We're talking Class D powdered copper fire extinguishers. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_D_Fire_Extinguisher

I think a bucket of sand is the cheap alternative for everyman. Common fire extinguishers are good for when the fire spreads to non-lithium surroundings. Good work storing the batteries in the stainless steel drawer.

The best list of URL's for all this stuff is at the bottom half of this page at Flashlightreviews. 

http://www.flashlightreviews.com/features/123burst.htm


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## LuxLuthor (Dec 19, 2007)

batterystation said:


> I am sorry about that. I wish I could list all the times that all sorts of types and brands of lithium batteries have done this. It is a lot. I am not trying to excuse myself but rather make a very important point. Low percentage in number sold but still happens to all brands. Please everyone be careful when dealing with ALL lithium chemistries. Mostly Polymers right now. They seem to make the biggest fireballs. Please let me know what lights were damaged and I will replace them. Our CR123A is now made in the USA in the hopes of less liklihood of this type of thing happening. That battery passed UL approval too!!! Thousands of dollars spent on making sure it was SAFE! We discontinued this battery under pressure from competition. Please email me and we will make this up to you straight away.



First, JimH, I hope you are ok after inhaling the smoke. I'm also very glad you didn't have a catastrophic home fire, and that you stored them in the metal toolcase. Thanks for the excellent pictures and description so others can learn from you. I'm kind of amazed with that amount of flame and smoke that the bad cell still shows outside label, and that the other cells and lights were not brought into a cascade, larger fire/explosion event. It also reminds all of us that ordinary fire extinguishers will not work with a Lithium fire, nor is it worth exposing yourself to the smoke.

Second, when a number of posts linked to BS exploding batteries were last discussed about 6-8 months ago, I had 8 of those exact AA cells, and threw them away....and am glad I did. I don't know how many incidents have been posted that involved BS batteries, but it was enough for me to get any of them out of my home.

I am glad to see Kevin step up and make it clear that he has changed sources, and offering to replace lost/damaged items. Jim, hopefully you will not suffer health issues which could be a catastrophic liability issue for any U.S. based company.

I think it would be wise for everyone to store their Lithium cells in a sensible location...no mattery what brand.


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## Burgess (Dec 19, 2007)

Wow !

Certainly an eye-opening thread ! 



Glad that i *strictly* use Energizer Lithium cells (L91 & L92)


Your stainless-steel tool-chest has proven to be a *wise* investment. :thumbsup:
_


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## 65535 (Dec 19, 2007)

Glad you made it out okay, you might want to go to a doctor after breathing any of that junk, just to make sure you didn't inhale dangerous amounts. It still amazes me how these lithium problems just come out of left field, but I wonder if somehow those cells wouldn't have vented if they were stored outside of the light.

For all lithium cell users, I recommend that if the light is used very occasionally, store the cells away from anything flammable and anywhere a fire could threaten the entire house. Currently I have about 30 lithium cells in my room mostly BS but I think I have 1 Surefire cell, none of them are stored in a light, and I have never had a problem with the cells.

Seems like the only time these things happen is when cells are stored inside lights. I imagine if someone took the time to bring up some old battery posts, most if not all cells that vented were stored improperly inside a light, or mis charged.


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## cat (Dec 19, 2007)

Spence said:


> I've got a bunch of BS CR123's in carriers and lights, is there any concern for them?



yes. What do _you_ think? I'd throw them away. Especially not leave them in a light. The problem might be the lantern.


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## ViReN (Dec 19, 2007)

batterystation said:


> I am sorry about that. I wish I could list all the times that all sorts of types and brands of lithium batteries have done this. It is a lot. I am not trying to excuse myself but rather make a very important point. Low percentage in number sold but still happens to all brands. Please everyone be careful when dealing with ALL lithium chemistries. Mostly Polymers right now. They seem to make the biggest fireballs. Please let me know what lights were damaged and I will replace them. Our CR123A is now made in the USA in the hopes of less liklihood of this type of thing happening. That battery passed UL approval too!!! Thousands of dollars spent on making sure it was SAFE! We discontinued this battery under pressure from competition. Please email me and we will make this up to you straight away.



Kevin, What a good gesture of kindness  :twothumbs it's very rare that manufacturers would cover for the damage.


JimH, I m glad that you and house are safe. Some times, rather more often, It's the flashlights that exert extreme stress on batteries both physically and electronically.


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## VidPro (Dec 19, 2007)

Hey Jim , glad to see that your organisation and investment paid off, "you the man" with the stainless steel tool chest :thumbsup: that is crasy.


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## D-Dog (Dec 19, 2007)

Wow...first off, glad to hear everything is ok. Does anyone know/think if an ammo box is sufficent protection from an exploding cell (aka place to store good cells safely)?


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## VidPro (Dec 19, 2007)

D-Dog said:


> Wow...first off, glad to hear everything is ok. Does anyone know/think if an ammo box is sufficent protection from an exploding cell (aka place to store good cells safely)?


 
i will just mention that people blew up ammo boxes in testing. (purposfull occurance)
you need some sort of heat prevenative contaiment, without gas buildup containment. usually you just need to be able to contain a "4th of July" type fountain, but sometimes a ignition of internally built up gasses.
so the containment sorta needs to allow for rapid or explosive expansion without becoming the shrapnel of said expansion, or the gas bomb of said ignition.

so myself i prefer metalic containment with loose lid (so to speak)
his steel tool box ends up being a good containment , without it being being so sealed up.


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## dan_ (Dec 19, 2007)

so far I have only heard of exploding batteries vom BS.. or is it known to someone that SF or other brand batteries explode as well?

I know this happens maybe once in a million but that doesn´t help if you´re the winner 

Anyways, I´m replacing all my BS Li-ion batteries and replace them with new panasonic ones. :ironic:

I thought this would only happen to Li-ion batteries... :shakehead

Be lucky that you were home and that the battery exploded in a safe place. I´ve got my lights all over the house & wouldn´t have had such luck as you did.


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## KevinL (Dec 19, 2007)

These were recalled a while ago. Battery Station was really helpful about replacing them too.. I sent all of mine in.


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## LED61 (Dec 19, 2007)

I'm curious, was this battery just sitting there fine and dandy inside the light or was it left on under load and severely discharged ? or maybe turned on accidentally ?


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## batterystation (Dec 19, 2007)

I really hope everyone understands that these were deemed "safe" by Underwriters Laboratories but so are many others and others have also gone poof. I cannot emphasize enough to be careful with ALL lithium chemistry batteries. This is NOT brand specific. Lithium Polymers have burned more homes down and RVs than anything so far. Every company tries to make their batteries safe but still the odds are that sooner or later something will go wrong with any type of battery. They are stored energy and lithiums are way MORE stored energy. I don't know why these things happen but since we move more lithium batteries than anyone else in the country (I think) we have seen this happen. I am sincerely sorry and will replace the batteries with Energizers and the lights with whatever I have that is equal or better. 

FAA regulations are moving fast to ban lithiums of any kind on passenger aircraft. A few incidents have got an entire industry changing directions. Do not be surprised to see the day that all lithiums might have to ship ground and perhaps even as hazmat. It could make a nice hobby VERY expensive.

Posts regarding "name brand" seem to be more correct than no name. Though that AA was UL rated and ISO made, it was still imported. A lot of money was spent (and lost) on that project. We were trying as hard as possible to do a good thing. Our CR123A is now made by one of the "big three" here in the USA at a 30% higher cost but was worth it. The US battery manufacturers still lead the world on quality and safety.

Anyone that has these batteries is welcome to send them back for exchage with USA CR123A batteries since I don't have a comperable AA. I am sorry I don't know why this happened but it does not make me sleep well.

I will NEVER put profit ahead of quality or safety. Never.......


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## Illum (Dec 19, 2007)

Sinjz said:


> I think they are suppose to, but these BS versions don't and never have. :shrug:



might want to toss those out....oo:
I have no idea how a battery would register almost at 2Vs when its spec'd around 1.7V


Batterystation, I've heard about the additional effort in ZTS all cells prior to purchase, that is a good thing indeed, but tell me if you will, where exactly is the source of BS cells? Even if its made in US, something has to be done...with all the good things I've heard about BS brand I would find it unreasonable for the company to slip failed QC cells from flawed manufacturing into the market and having you as a dealer to bear the cross for it, if it is the manufacturer's fault of course.


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## batterystation (Dec 19, 2007)

Illum_the_nation said:


> Even if its made in US, something has to be done...with all the good things I've heard about BS brand I would find it unreasonable for the company to slip failed QC cells from flawed manufacturing into the market and having you as a dealer to bear the cross for it, if it is the manufacturer's fault of course.[/SIZE]



That AA LFB-AA was NOT made in the USA. Our CR123A is now made in the USA and is of less concern but people need to be careful of ALL lithium chemistries. I cannot stress this enough. They are an unreal amount of stored energy in a tiny package.


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## hcd615 (Dec 19, 2007)

Deleted!


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## AnalogDog (Dec 19, 2007)

I recently got some information from an equipment manufacturer who stated that Li batteries should not be used in their instruments as water contact with the Li chemistry makes the battery explode.

We are talking about water level transducers here, so water is everywhere.


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## Illum (Dec 19, 2007)

batterystation said:


> They are an unreal amount of stored energy in a tiny package.



I know very well what you mean....me and a couple others have done this before: testing a battery with the meter set on amps:shakehead


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## LED61 (Dec 19, 2007)

batterystation said:


> I really hope everyone understands that these were deemed "safe" by Underwriters Laboratories but so are many others and others have also gone poof. I cannot emphasize enough to be careful with ALL lithium chemistry batteries. This is NOT brand specific. Lithium Polymers have burned more homes down and RVs than anything so far. Every company tries to make their batteries safe but still the odds are that sooner or later something will go wrong with any type of battery. They are stored energy and lithiums are way MORE stored energy. I don't know why these things happen but since we move more lithium batteries than anyone else in the country (I think) we have seen this happen. I am sincerely sorry and will replace the batteries with Energizers and the lights with whatever I have that is equal or better.
> 
> FAA regulations are moving fast to ban lithiums of any kind on passenger aircraft. A few incidents have got an entire industry changing directions. Do not be surprised to see the day that all lithiums might have to ship ground and perhaps even as hazmat. It could make a nice hobby VERY expensive.
> 
> ...


 

Kevin, would you care to disclose the plant and manufacturer making the batteries for you ? 

Please understand I am in no way challenging you to do this if it in some way inconveniences you, it is just that so many of us are still up inthe air on this and don´t even know where the plants are located or who makes what for whom. It would just give us added confidence in the product. there was even talk recently of Duracell 123´s not made by their own plant anymore.


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## VidPro (Dec 19, 2007)

AnalogDog said:


> I recently got some information from an equipment manufacturer who stated that Li batteries should not be used in their instruments as water contact with the Li chemistry makes the battery explode.
> 
> We are talking about water level transducers here, so water is everywhere.


 
most of them are sealed intitally from the lithium getting contact with the outside, untill something happens, , , they are sealed.

from the Energyser safety sheet again
*Under normal conditions of use, the battery is hermetically sealed*

so normally water would not enter the place lithium is , after venting though it could, so they are probably wise to protect themselves this way. especially if rusting (oxidising) of the containment would occur.


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## hcd615 (Dec 19, 2007)

Deleted!


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## AnalogDog (Dec 19, 2007)

VidPro said:


> most of them are sealed intitally from the lithium getting contact with the outside, untill something happens, , , they are sealed.
> 
> from the Energyser safety sheet again
> *Under normal conditions of use, the battery is hermetically sealed*
> ...



I completely understand. But when instruments are in water with Li batteries, and there is an explosion potential, I personally don't care to play with $1200 transducers and my life.

What we have learned in this post is enlightening enough. I am not sure how these batteries can spontaneously explode, but I don't care to do the testing to figure it out.


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## batterystation (Dec 19, 2007)

hcd615 said:


> Well, I contacted BS and Kevin (I guess he works there) told me that I basically dont know what I am talking about and I am jumping the gun and I have nothing to worry about. Wow, I am sure he told Jim the same thing when he sold him batteries that almost burned his house down. I have worked and owned my company for many years and I have built a nice house and I am not going to worry about batteries exploding and buring my house down. I know it may not happen, but once you hear of one or some problems a normal person has concerns. Kevin then emailed me back and said they would refund the batteries once I shipped them back. He told me his batteries are the same as SF's. I dont know if that is true or not but I am now going to Surefire.com and ordering 72 SF123's there.



I cannot stop knee jerk reactions. Our CR123A now made here by (begins with R) is NOT NOT NOT the issue here. Any other CR123A you buy now from Surefire, Energizer, Duracell, Rayovac, or Panasonic is NO safer. Please get your facts straight before ripping me by email and telling me how much you hate us. USA made CR123A batteries are not the issue here. For the record, I said I would NEVER put profit above quality or safety. GET IT.

I see I cannot win so I am done posting here. I will replace anything that anyone wants to return. Members of this forum know I stand behind what I sell all the way and I would never EVER sell something that I thought was in any way unsafe. That is why things stop getting sold and offers of exchange are made. I do not appreciate being accused of something that I am not!!!


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## LuxLuthor (Dec 19, 2007)

hcd615 said:


> Well, I contacted BS and Kevin (I guess he works there) told me that I basically dont know what I am talking about and I am jumping the gun and I have nothing to worry about. Wow, I am sure he told Jim the same thing when he sold him batteries that almost burned his house down. I have worked and owned my company for many years and I have built a nice house and I am not going to worry about batteries exploding and buring my house down. I know it may not happen, but once you hear of one or some problems a normal person has concerns. Kevin then emailed me back and said they would refund the batteries once I shipped them back. He told me his batteries are the same as SF's. I dont know if that is true or not but I am now going to Surefire.com and ordering 72 SF123's there.



First, I appreciate batterystation's posts above, and hcd615, I think it would be worth re-reading what he said.

JimH's exploded (blue label) AA that were in the lantern in JimH's drawer are an older, and discontinued model. I had 8 of the same that I bought over a year ago. There were similar, spontaneous explosion incidents posted here about the older BS 123A models (same as the SF size), and this obsolete AA model, that prompted me to toss all of mine 6-8 months ago.

Batterystation has posted that they have a new design, and are now USA made, so if those are what you have....it may be understandable to not refund you.

I take with a grain of salt when a cheaper priced battery manufacturer/reseller/distributor tries to lump together all lithium battery brands with the same risks, since we all know there are completely different standards on manufacturing specifications, inspections, and QC. 

There has not been any other brand that I have read about on these forums with the number of explosive incidents as those of BatteryStation's past brands. If new manufacturing sources and specifications have been instituted by B.S., that's a good thing, but I understand people's lingering hesitation with the brand. 

I agree that it's reasonable that other brands have problems, but I would never put Surefire 123A's into this B.S. (bad acronym) category....and a lot of people have used the SF brand on this forum.


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## JimH (Dec 19, 2007)

dan_ said:


> s
> I´ve got my lights all over the house & wouldn´t have had such luck as you did.


"Lucky" is the operative word here. Less than 1% of my flashlights and batteries were in the tool chest. Like you, most are scattered all over the house, in my car, in my camper, etc.


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## JimH (Dec 19, 2007)

LED61 said:


> I'm curious, was this battery just sitting there fine and dandy inside the light or was it left on under load and severely discharged ? or maybe turned on accidentally ?


Option one is correct - "just sitting there fine and dandy inside the light"


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## hcd615 (Dec 19, 2007)

Deleted!


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## greenLED (Dec 19, 2007)

Howard, this thread is about AA lithium batteries, not 123's. Kevin pulled the plug on those AA batteries a looooong time ago because of safety concerns with that particular product. When he did, Kevin took care of those customers who approached him.

AFAI can tell from what's posted, you contacted him about returning 123 batteries, which have a safer track record than the discontinued AA cells. If I may use a car analogy, that's like returning a Ford Focus to the dealer after the Ford Explorers were recalled.

That is, from my limited perspective the source of the confusion. Your posting seems to lump AA and 123 lithium cells under the same umbrella which, IMO, is incorrect in the context of this thread (AA lithiums, which we already know were deemed unsafe by Kevin even with all the safety approvals they had on them).

Does that make sense?


Jim, glad to hear you're OK. Take care, bud.


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## hcd615 (Dec 19, 2007)

Deleted!


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## hcd615 (Dec 19, 2007)

Deleted!


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## D-Dog (Dec 19, 2007)

No offense to anyone...just saying that BS said like 1000000 times in this thread that the cr123a's are made in the USA, not imported and that because of this they are just as safe... I hate seeing someone else (BS) take heat for something he didn't even do... 


As far as I can tell from reading this thread, the battery which exploded was discontinued because of safety reasons and BS even said he would replace them for free back when they were discontinued. Not knocking at all what happened, as this was very serious, however, BS should not be held responsible for a battery he said was dangerous and offered exchanges. Kinda like adopting a wild cat, learning it may have a dangerous disease and still keeping it

BS IS NOT AT FAULT (unless I missed something) Please note that this is from someone who never dealt with anyone here and is jsut formulating an opinion based on what I have read and just read.

In conclusion, still glad everyone is ok and nothing was destroyed. Shows the power of even such a small battery...


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## Daniel_sk (Dec 19, 2007)

hcd615 said:


> Just for kicks I did a search for 'Exploding' on this forum. And I found a thread from 10/2007 that said someone bought a SF G2 from a company and the company changes out the SF123 with BS batteries. Well low and behold the BS123 exploded. Then in the thread it now says something to the effect they are now made in the USA so I guess they are better now. I am still not taking any chances.
> 
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/178411&highlight=exploding


Those batteries were from the old batch (not made in USA) and were sitting inside the flashlight for 1-2 years, If I remember right...


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## hcd615 (Dec 19, 2007)

Deleted!


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## Art Vandelay (Dec 19, 2007)

The brand of battery may just be a label. If two different brands are made in the US, switching from one brand to the another may just buy a more expensive label for the same battery.


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## hcd615 (Dec 19, 2007)

Deleted!


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## LED61 (Dec 19, 2007)

It´s tough to leave a dark past behind. You only get one chance to make a good impression. In this case I am referring of course to the unsafe discontinued products BS has sold int he past, but as history has taught us, or even large commercial aircraft companies years ago, is that once a name has a bad performance record it´s hard to come back no matter how hard you work at it.

Surefire batteries and Duracell batteries DO NOT have as bad a track record of explosions, despite contrary opinion. And I suspect they are sold in much larger numbers. Can anyone point me to a thread where one of these other name brand batteries exploded unintentionally ?


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## hcd615 (Dec 19, 2007)

Deleted!


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## Illum (Dec 19, 2007)

hcd615 said:


> LED61:
> I have been looking, it is very hard to find name brand (Surefire SF123) exploding.




looking on the forum doesnt help, there made be surefire cells venting and NOT REPORTED or brought attention to the prescence of the forum:shrug:
What do you mean BS is not a name brand?! its better than those POSMF lithiums sold by the dozens on ebay
BS has been here longer than I've ever been and are a very respective brand once and still recommended by a few individual here

no offense against you or any other person but geezez the threads going way off topic and yet again its fate is become another jeer thread:sick2:

Jim, have you gotten that smoke inhalation checked out yet?


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## Alan B (Dec 19, 2007)

Folks, the take-home message here is to return/dispose of any old Batterystation AA cells ASAP. Other cells and current product from Batterystation are not involved in the issue.

Treat all Lithium batteries with care, charge them in a safe place, and if you are really concerned about the residual risk then change to NiMH. Don't forget your laptop, cellphone, mp3 player, bluetooth headset, etc.

Thanks for the message, time to move to the Next thread

-- Alan


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## greenLED (Dec 19, 2007)

Alan B said:


> Folks, the take-home message here is to return/dispose of any old Batterystation AA cells ASAP. Other cells and current product from Batterystation are not involved in the issue.
> 
> Treat all Lithium batteries with care, charge them in a safe place, and if you are really concerned about the residual risk then change to NiMH. Don't forget your laptop, cellphone, mp3 player, bluetooth headset, etc.



..and since you mention it, please do not confuse and never-ever mix primary (non-rechargeable) lithium cells with rechargeable lithium-ion (li-ion) cells.


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## hcd615 (Dec 19, 2007)

Deleted!


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## LED61 (Dec 19, 2007)

Howard, if you are concerned those are the ones to avoid with the dark history. I think you will be OK with the new ones made in the U.S.

I would not worry too much, old BS 123's have exploded but only with flashlights on high amp draws. I still have some of those and will continue to use them with 1 amp max amp draw.


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## Sinjz (Dec 19, 2007)

Howard, you are talking about two different products; actually three. Lithium AAs, the 'old style' Lithium CR123 (made in who-knows-where) and the 'new style' CR123's that are made in the USA. From what I understand, these new CR123s are made from the same place that make the SureFire CR123s. I don't care if you return the battereis or not, just wanted to clarify the situation.

Anyway, I've decided to return/exchange the dozen or so lithium AAs I still have. Kevin, can I exchange them for Energizer Lithium AAs? I've already have a boatload of CR123s. Also, do I need a RMA or anything? You can feel free to PM me or post here if you think others have the same questions. Thanks.


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## JimH (Dec 19, 2007)

Alan B said:


> Folks, the take-home message here is to return/dispose of any old Batterystation AA cells ASAP.


Speaking of disposing of potentially unsafe lithium batteries, what is the recommended safe way to dispose of them.

Do any of the major chains (Home depot, Radio Shack, etc.) offer free disposal?


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## D-Dog (Dec 19, 2007)

I know that Li-ions can be brought to a local recycling center, however I am not sure about primaries


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## sawlight (Dec 19, 2007)

WOW!!! What a read this has been!!!
Jim: Very glad all went well, VERY glad it wasn't worse!!! Do see a Doc. soon!!

Kevin: That is about as stand up as a company can be, KUDOS to you!!!:twothumbs
ALL of my 123's have come from you, and I guarantee I will be buying more.
I really want to go rechargeable, but after the horror stories of ANY BRAND, not sure.
Any manufacture that has the nuts to come on here, apologize, offer to replace everything, and put up with the criticism, they have earned my respect and business!!!!


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## Mr Happy (Dec 19, 2007)

In California at least, the law says that all "hazardous waste" must must be taken to a hazardous waste disposal center and must not be placed in the trash. Hazardous waste includes all kinds of batteries, electronic items, fluorescent tubes, used engine oil, solvents, paints, you name it. There is a disposal center in most cities and municipalities. Where I live, the trash collection company offers a free pickup curbside every three months or so.


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## hcd615 (Dec 19, 2007)

I went to Duracell and it says this quote about disposal:

"Lithium, Lithium Ion, Nickel Metal Hydride & Zinc Air Batteries 
These batteries may be safely disposed of in normal household waste. Contact your local government for disposal or recycling practices in your area."

So it sounds like the noraml trashcan, can that be correct?


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## modamag (Dec 19, 2007)

Wow! Big Jim, first day I come back to CPF and the first article I see is this!

You're definitely VERY lucky that:
1. you don't have it near the stashed of light s near the door or the battery stash, otherwise a potential chain reaction could have occur.
2. investing in those crazy *** Costco SS cabinets ($$$). Now I have to think twice about my battery storage solution on my Ikea shelf.
3. not taking class with me & Kevin so you were home instead of slaving away in the shop.

Hope all is well. I'll drop by later this week after this stupid final.
I can pickup ALL your unwanted batteries. We have a pretty decent recycling program here @ work since we're going green.


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## NA8 (Dec 19, 2007)

In San Francisco, I recently got a letter saying you could now recycle batteries in the Blue recycle bins that the local disposal company uses. They only asked that Lithium batteries have tape put over the ends. 

I'm waiting to see how many fires get started when people just dump their half used lithiums in with all that metal and paper without bothering with the tape.


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## lightemup (Dec 19, 2007)

Glad you're ok Jim


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## abvidledUK (Dec 19, 2007)

It may be informative for someone (dealer?) to do some testing to destruction of various battery types, in various storage containers.

ie, Torches, ammo box, wooden drawer, on shelf, pocket (of dummy) etc

Or at least pull all the CPF recorded photo's in one thread ?


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## Brighteyez (Dec 19, 2007)

Jim,

The city's web site has a list of recycling sites for things like batteries, flourescent tubes, and other stuff that doesn't get picked up in the regular recyling bins. I think OSH and Radio Shack are on the list, and I think I saw battery recycle boxes at Wal*Mart as well.

http://www.sjrecycles.org/residents/default.asp

Which reminds me ... tomorrow is garbage day, gotta go put it out. 



JimH said:


> Speaking of disposing of potentially unsafe lithium batteries, what is the recommended safe way to dispose of them.
> 
> Do any of the major chains (Home depot, Radio Shack, etc.) offer free disposal?


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## PhotonWrangler (Dec 19, 2007)

Holy cow!!!  I'm so relieved to hear that there were no injuries or damage beyond that steel drawer.

I don't have any BatteryStation batteries but I'm following this thread with great interest. Do get yourself checked out by a doctor soon for that smoke inhalation.


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## Darkpower (Dec 19, 2007)

JimH said:


> Post explosion photos are shown below. The bottom of the lantern was blown completely to the opposite side of the draw by the explosion. I am now on search and destroy mission to rid my house of all Battery Station batteries.


Shame your River Rock mini-Lantern was destroyed. I bought one of those for about $12 and they are great. I went back to Targets to buy more and River Rock discontinued that particular model.

This whole thing with a primary AA Lithium-Iron batteries catching fire is shocking. I have lots of Energizers L92 and L91 Lithiums and I see them as the ultimate in stash away power for emergency lighting. They have a 15 year shelf life and can be stored in temperature extremes. I hope this is isolated just to BatteryStation brand. I have some CR123's from them I and I never liked those BS CR123s...they give off an ether-solvent smell which could very well be Thionyl Chloride. I got them as freebies when I bought a Surefire in a Buy-a-Surefire-and-get-12-CR123s-for-free type deal. I originally figured that they were poor performing batteries, hence why they were being given away, plus they were made in China. But now I am reading that those CR123's are potentially defective.


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## gswitter (Dec 19, 2007)

JimH said:


> Do any of the major chains (Home depot, Radio Shack, etc.) offer free disposal?


The local Ace Harware (Los Gatos Blvd) has been happy to recycle (no fees and no questions asked) every battery I've brought in, including Lithium primary and rechargables. What they actually do with them, I don't know.

Glad to hear no one was hurt in your incident, Jim. I think I've still got a few of those Battery Station AA's in the office closet.


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## VidPro (Dec 19, 2007)

Darkpower said:


> ...they give off an ether-solvent smell .


 
Darkpower, question:
what is the deal with the 123cell smell thing? i have read in this forum in places that people smell this "typical" lithium smell before, and i was always intrigued, because the item is sealed (intitally).
only time i have smelled a lithium battery (li-ion usually) was ones that had reached end of life, and had become unsealed uneventfully. its one of the clues i use to locate one that is ruined (and dangerous)

i take a big (stupid) wiff of my can of energyser lithiums, and i smell nothing, i crack open my flashlight after using them, i smell nothing. i think they even refered to it as sweet smell or something?? is it just a flashaholic slang phrase? (like sweet smell of sucess)

here are some of the quotes from long ago
"this light has a *Sweet Smell*.... I told him .... "Yes it is Flashahol"
"You are talking about this oranges smell? my Surefire's batteries smell like this but not my Streamlight's..."
"but have you noticed the smell that lithium cells have"
"all of my lights that run off lithiums smell then way however alkalines dont so it must be the lithiums"
"It is the smell from lithium batteries that have been used and abused. It is addictive."
etc etc


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## BVH (Dec 19, 2007)

I just rounded up my dozen BS Lithium cells from the same era as Jims and tossed them. Had 4 in a Osram Golden Dragon lantern.


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## Cydonia (Dec 19, 2007)

That flashahol ether smell... I read here once that some have speculated that it is from seals "naturally" breaking down over time. I can smell it even on lithium primary 2016 and 2032 coin cells in Photon keychain lights... a sickly smell. Same as when I used to have Inova T2 and X5 with Cr123A's... you'd unscrew the cap and the pungent odor was quite strong. I was Always bothered by it. Avoided inhaling fumes - by intuition felt it was bad. Only ever used Duracell CR123A's that came with Inova's. Only got 2 lights left that use a single CR123A. Still worry about the fumes as well as the rare flame event.

I've a dozen Energizer Lithium AA's in separate zip lock bags in the earthquke kit bag. Yes they smell quite strong. Opened a bag to take some out and felt like I needed air, instinctively held breath. Maybe the fumes react with plastic bag. Bothers me. More than ever after this thread. Doesn't matter where they are made. Might have to get rid of them soon... too much worry. It's either a fire or cancer with these things. The unknown smell is more worrying than a fire come to think of it now...


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## cmacclel (Dec 19, 2007)

hcd615 said:


> LED61:
> I have been looking, it is very hard to find name brand (Surefire SF123) exploding.



There have been a couple incedents where Surefire battery's exploded as well. 

The new batterystation battery's are made by Rayovac so I would think there as safe as can be.

Mac


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## Darkpower (Dec 19, 2007)

VidPro said:


> Darkpower, question:
> what is the deal with the 123cell smell thing? i have read in this forum in places that people smell this "typical" lithium smell before, and i was always intrigued, because the item is sealed (intitally).
> only time i have smelled a lithium battery (li-ion usually) was ones that had reached end of life, and had become unsealed uneventfully. its one of the clues i use to locate one that is ruined (and dangerous)
> 
> ...


 
These are the ones and the only ones that have that sweet-ether solvent smell in my possession. I am not sure if they have a defective vent, but I am sure its Thionyl Chloride that is venting out. They also have very poor performance and I know that others here have also said that they were short lived. I have many other CR123s by Surefire and Tenergy and they are just fine and last long...plus RCR123 Li-ion that have no out gassing.


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## Alan B (Dec 19, 2007)

I have smelled that "flashahol ether smell" on all lithium primaries that I've dealt with. That is about six different brands, almost all of those being major brands including SF, Duracell, Eveready, Panasonic. So I don't think that by itself is any kind of bad indicator. It would appear to be normal. Some molecules may slowly permeate the seal, and the nose is pretty sensitive to small PPM. The smell seems only to be noticeable when opening a sealed container that the cells have been in for some time, perhaps the odor permeates slowly and collects in the sealed flashlight, etc.

-- Alan


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## hcd615 (Dec 20, 2007)

I can open up either one of my SF M6's and I smell that lithium smell all the time and I am using SF123's.


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## greenLED (Dec 20, 2007)

Darkpower, I've gotten that smell from all batches of 123 cells I've had over the years.


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## Canuke (Dec 20, 2007)

Here's an idea: That River Rock lantern is one that uses an electronic switch, and therefore might draw a few microamps of current when off. My RR's routinely give a brief "flash" when I finish installing fresh batteries.

Normally that's no big deal, but if one of those cells was marginal and discharged to 0V, the other three good cells with their 1.9V each simply push that tiny current through the dead one, slowly reverse charging it. After 8 months, it finally let go.

If that is right, the moral of the story is: don't store lithium cells in a 2+ series config in anything that might have even the tiniest current draw when off. Mechanically switched circuits only.

One of my recent alkaline leakage incidents happened in one of those lanterns; I'll have to see if I can detect any microcurrent in the off state. That will have to wait until the new year, though,l as I'm going into the gaping maw of LAX hell in a few hours for the holiday trip.

(On that note, Merry Christmas to everyone at CPF!)


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## KevinL (Dec 20, 2007)

Interesting. I had an Osram Golden Dragon which looks as if it comes from a similar design. Cooked itself too and made a mess of the battery compartment so I threw it away. Alkaline cells.


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## greenLED (Dec 20, 2007)

Canuke said:


> Here's an idea: That River Rock lantern is one that uses an electronic switch, and therefore might draw a few microamps of current when off. My RR's routinely give a brief "flash" when I finish installing fresh batteries.
> 
> Normally that's no big deal, but if one of those cells was marginal and discharged to 0V, the other three good cells with their 1.9V each simply push that tiny current through the dead one, slowly reverse charging it. After 8 months, it finally let go.



Interesting hypothesis. I actually have a RR lantern that's been loaded with alkies since I bought it. I'll have to pull it out and check the voltage on those.


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## Robocop (Dec 20, 2007)

HCD it is not that you did anything wrong with your posts however I believe you kept trying to drive your point across too many times....if you do not like the batteries or feel too scared now to have them then return them just quit griping about it. There is no need to try and make others shy away from BS just because you had a bad experience and maybe some are jumping the gun too quick. He did agree to replace them regardless so you are out nothing....sounds like a good place to do business to me.

Kevin is a classy man no doubt and many seem to forget the efforts on his part in bringing us all many new developments as far as batteries go. I am fully confident that he knows what he is doing and his past actions of honor make me trust him today without even thinking about it.

If all this negative crap keeps up surely it will harm his business and we may lose a very good dealer. I personally know a few officers who have had SureFire cells go bad and one of them was recently involving a Glock Rail Light mounted on a 40 Cal weapon. Yes there was damage with the light destroyed and yes he notified SureFire about it. The light was stored at the time of the incident and the weapon was not loaded. So with the thousands of SF cells sold I am sure some of them do go bad at times.....we simply may not hear about it that much.

CPF makes up a good part of BS customer base and as such any problems (even one) we will all surely hear about it. SureFire however has thousands of customers I am sure who are not members here so any failures with SF cells we will never hear of.

Maybe it should be a standard practice to never store Lithium cells inside any light much less multi cell lights. If I remember correct this problem is more common on lights that use double or triple batteries.....this lantern held 4 batteries so maybe it would be safe to say never store multiple lithiums in any light.


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## mikehill (Dec 20, 2007)

Well said RC :thumbsup:
+1 !


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## NA8 (Dec 20, 2007)

greenLED said:


> Darkpower, I've gotten that smell from all batches of 123 cells I've had over the years.



Well I've only got 2 lithium cells left, the two sanyo 123s in my Target Brinkmann Maxfire. Cracked open the tailcap and took a sniff. Yep. Damn smelly. 

I've had enough of lithium batteries, these guys are headed for the big blue recycle can. Garbage day tomorrow. 

Where's the tape ?


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## DM51 (Dec 20, 2007)

I’ve only just seen this thread. Comments:

1. Very relieved to hear you are OK, Jim, but please see a doc and get him to check you over.

2. That metal cabinet undoubtedly saved you from a nasty fire – safe battery storage now moves up the agenda as something for us all to think about.

3. Obvious – if anyone still has cells the same as these, get rid of them at once. 

4. _Should_ be obvious – Battery Station has behaved very well in this matter. These were old cells, no longer sold. The new Battery Station cells are completely different. The new ones should not be regarded as unsafe because of this incident.

5. Canuke’s theory in post #83 sounds very feasible. I don’t know this River Rock lantern, but if it has a tiny current draw when switched off, it could have depleted this cell over time in storage, and the other cells could then have started to reverse-charge it, leading to this venting incident.

6. If that is the case, people need to consider again very carefully how to store ANY multi-cell light (or other application) that could have even the tiniest current drain. Any application like this should be stored empty, with no cells inside, otherwise a similar incident could happen, whatever the make of the cells.


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## geepondy (Dec 20, 2007)

Many watch batteries are lithium's aren't they?



batterystation said:


> FAA regulations are moving fast to ban lithiums of any kind on passenger aircraft. A few incidents have got an entire industry changing directions. Do not be surprised to see the day that all lithiums might have to ship ground and perhaps even as hazmat. It could make a nice hobby VERY expensive.


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## geepondy (Dec 20, 2007)

Guys, have you read reports of the Titanium brand CR123's exploding? A bit before Amondotech went under, I bought several for self use but also gave out to family members for use in their lights. Now I'm nervous.


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## Alan B (Dec 20, 2007)

There are many different variants on Lithium battery chemistry, and they have different properties. The coin cells don't have the high energy and current delivery capacity of the 123 and AA cells and have not developed the reputation for problems, despite being perhaps 100 times as commonly used.

From a risk perspective, an ordered lithium battery concern would be, from highest to lowest: (based on risk and severity factors and published incidence of problems)

heart disease, cancer, automobile accidents
...
laptops catching fire...
cellphones
pdas
mp3 players
digital cameras
electronic switched devices that are never completely off
series cells unprotected Li-Ion all sizes
series cells non USA made AA and CR123 (recalled BS batteries)
...
single cell unprotected Li-Ion all sizes
...
single cell non USA made AA and CR123
...
USA made CR123 (current BS batteries as well as SF, etc)
USA made AA


Not on the list due to not bursting into flame:

Li-Iron chemistries, A123systems etc
lithium button cells
NiMH
Alkaline


Risk Factors, in no particular order

Lithium Ion, Polymer Rechargeables
High-energy Lithium Primaries
Series Cells
Unprotected Cells
Non-US Manufactured
Non-US QA
Quantity of Cells
Electronic Switch (never completely off)
Overcharging (voltage or integrated current/time)
Overdischarging
High Current (short)
Charging a Primary cell
Mechanical shock, damage, puncture

-- Alan


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## soffiler (Dec 20, 2007)

Canuke said:


> Here's an idea: That River Rock lantern is one that uses an electronic switch, and therefore might draw a few microamps of current when off. My RR's routinely give a brief "flash" when I finish installing fresh batteries.
> 
> Normally that's no big deal, but if one of those cells was marginal and discharged to 0V, the other three good cells with their 1.9V each simply push that tiny current through the dead one, slowly reverse charging it. After 8 months, it finally let go.
> 
> ...


 
I'll definitely go on record in support of this theory. Good work, Canuke. I am looking forward to hearing whether you can measure current draw in the off-state.

Oh, and for those of you who are discussing the smell: all my research on the subject points to dimethoxyethane, NOT thionyl chloride.


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## hcd615 (Dec 20, 2007)

Deleted!


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## 83Venture (Dec 20, 2007)

I went through my stash and lights last night an tossed out 10 of the old BS 123s that I had. I have been moving away from 123s for a while but I still have some lights like my E2e & the P6s with LED drop-ins that I keep in the Safe & vehicles.

I will only leave batteries in the go-to safe light. If the Lights that use the Eneloop AAs in the vehicles can't cover any emergency needs I will load 123s in the P6s in the vehicles as needed then remove them when I am finished. I will have to order some replacements batteries next month.

Jim, the NTSA report I saw on another thread lists some nasty fumes and byproducts from these kinds of fires. Please take note of any problems that may come from this and go to a doctor if you notice any health issues that may result.


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## soffiler (Dec 20, 2007)

hcd615 said:


> Robocop:
> Before posting you should go back and read what I wrote. I clearly state that I have MY OWN CONCERNS and I am not advocating people shouldn't buy BS batteries, I just will not. I also stated that his batteries are now made in the USA and will probably have no problems at all. So by saying that how am I telling people to shy away from his batteries? I said it many times in this long thread. I am not going to go into a whole dissertation again, but just please read the posts. I am allowed to have my own thoughts and feelings, just as you are.


 

Well, Howard, here is something you DID say in an earlier post:

_... I just was making a point that BS's 123's have exploded before and I am not going to take a chance myself. But if the QC, build, manufacture, etc. was obviously poor before, just because it is made in the USA, how do we know it is better. We dont. Sometimes it is true what my Dad taught me, "You get what you pay for."..._

So, OK, you aren't making an explicit statement that says "do not buy Battery Station cells" but let's be honest here... the above quote is a clear attempt on your part to cast a shadow of doubt on Battery Station.

What you probably don't know is that there is literally just ONE factory making CR123A cells in the USA, and it is owned by Panasonic. Unless that situation has changed very recently, the fact is that Battery Station's new Made In USA cells are coming from exactly the same place as SureFire. Seems to me that maybe you don't understand enough about this situation to be making the kind of statements like I quoted above.


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## LED61 (Dec 20, 2007)

batterystation said:


> I really hope everyone understands that these were deemed "safe" by Underwriters Laboratories but so are many others and others have also gone poof. I cannot emphasize enough to be careful with ALL lithium chemistry batteries. This is NOT brand specific. Lithium Polymers have burned more homes down and RVs than anything so far. Every company tries to make their batteries safe but still the odds are that sooner or later something will go wrong with any type of battery. They are stored energy and lithiums are way MORE stored energy. I don't know why these things happen but since we move more lithium batteries than anyone else in the country (I think) we have seen this happen. I am sincerely sorry and will replace the batteries with Energizers and the lights with whatever I have that is equal or better.
> 
> FAA regulations are moving fast to ban lithiums of any kind on passenger aircraft. A few incidents have got an entire industry changing directions. Do not be surprised to see the day that all lithiums might have to ship ground and perhaps even as hazmat. It could make a nice hobby VERY expensive.
> 
> ...


 

Soffiler, it is exactly these contradictions that cast shadows of doubt when it comes to these products. Surely Kevin oughta know about these "BIG THREE" he quotes above, and then you being as knowledgeable as you are tell us in your previous post there is ONLY ONE.

It bothers me we as consumers can´t know the exact whereabouts of origin for our 123´s that we buy. Is there a way to know this for certain ?

And BTW, another very knowledgeable CPFr here, I think Mattk supports your statement of only one factory in the U.S. So why does Kevin say there is THREE ?

I´m not denying that his new batteries are made in the u.S. but can´t we have a common denominator here ?


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## Lynn Downey (Dec 20, 2007)

I have many new SF and Duracell CR123A's around for my SF's. Are the non-rechargable batteries in danger of causing problems? I also just ordered my first RCR123's and a charger from Battery Junction (FiFeP04 batteies and a charger. Are these the dangerous ones? Just in case, I stopped by our local ACE hardware yesterday and picked up a $30 fireproof document case (small safe) to keep all of the lights and spare batteries in. I'm also so thankful that the incident in question didn't turn out to be any worse.


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## hcd615 (Dec 20, 2007)

Deleted!


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## soffiler (Dec 20, 2007)

Howard, you get "hammered" when you post over and over and over, and start contradicting yourself. And you just did it again... you're wrong, you aren't stating FACTS when you make shadowy statements about the quality control in the US factory where Battery Station gets their CR123A cells. That is all.


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## hcd615 (Dec 20, 2007)

Steve: You are correct, I did make a shadowy post, I was wrong and deleted it. Sorry if any harm was done, it was not intended.


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## soffiler (Dec 20, 2007)

hcd615 said:


> Steve: You are correct, I did make a shadowy post, I was wrong and deleted it. Sorry if any harm was done, it was not intended.


 
Howard, you are a gentleman.


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## hcd615 (Dec 20, 2007)

Deleted!


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## SilverFox (Dec 20, 2007)

Hello Jim,

Wow... How are you doing?

A point of clarification for this thread. 

The cells involved were primary AA cells. I don't believe the chemistry is similar between the CR123 and AA cells.

A lot of testing has been done on the CR123 cells, and reverse charging a cell in a multi cell application caused the cell to "rapidly vent with flame." We have not done similar testing with the lithium AA cells.

While we don't know, we can speculate...

I do know that batteries store energy, and stored energy can be dangerous. I also am aware that all brands and types of batteries have had "issues."

The most memorable "incident" I have witnessed was the explosion of a lead acid truck battery. We were doing some work on a truck and had the hood lifted. Went to start it up and the battery exploded. In addition to smoke and fumes, we had acid spraying all over the place. Fortunately no one was seriously hurt, but several of us were washing acid off of our skin.

Think about that the next time you lift the hood and start your car in the garage with your kids nearby...

Did it make the news? No.

It is important for us to try to figure out what happened with Jim's light, but we must also accept that we may not be able to accurately do so. It would be a major effort to try to duplicate this in a controlled test...

The biggest problem would be the fact that these cells are no longer available. I am not sure a test run with Energizer cells would give us the same results.

At any rate, I hope Jim is still OK. It doesn't look like there was anything else in the drawer to set off the reaction, so either the cell failed within itself, or the light influenced the behavior of the cell. The fact that the other cells registered high voltage may suggest that the cell simply self destructed.

Tom


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## Mr Happy (Dec 20, 2007)

LED61 said:


> And BTW, another very knowledgeable CPFr here, I think Mattk supports your statement of only one factory in the U.S. So why does Kevin say there is THREE ?



Sorry, but Kevin doesn't say there are three CR123A factories in the USA. He says:

His cells are made by one of the "big three" companies (D*****, E***** or R*****?)
His cells are made here in the USA
This doesn't mean all of the "big three" have factories in the USA, it just means that at least one of them does.


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## LED61 (Dec 20, 2007)

Mr Happy said:


> Sorry, but Kevin doesn't say there are three CR123A factories in the USA. He says:
> 
> His cells are made by one of the "big three" companies (D*****, E***** or R*****?)
> His cells are made here in the USA
> This doesn't mean all of the "big three" have factories in the USA, it just means that at least one of them does.


 
So according to you in numeral one, Panasonic--supposedly the one and only 123 manufacturer is not one of the big three-- ? I am implying this because you have no P***** in numeral 1.

And the post makes mention of battery manufacturers implying more than one. Whatever, the confusion still lingers no matter how you interpret it.


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## Monocrom (Dec 20, 2007)

I've heard of BS cells exploding inside of lights before, but those were cheap CR123 cells. Now their AAs are doing that too?? :duh2:

Yeah.... I'm going to stick with Surefire and Duracell (or Energizer) cells.


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## hcd615 (Dec 20, 2007)

Deleted!


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## LuxLuthor (Dec 20, 2007)

I'm wondering if there is lingering smoke damage/noxious smell from this fire in that room or rest of the house. I'm still amazed that those adjacent cells didn't also explode from the fire/heat. 

I now have all my lithium cells in a rubber lined metal toolbox in heated cement floor storage area. Took all the ones out of lights that are not being used immediately.


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## hcd615 (Dec 20, 2007)

Deleted!


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## greenLED (Dec 20, 2007)

hcd615 said:


> Is BS a dealer here??


Yes, since before I joined CPF.


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## hcd615 (Dec 20, 2007)

Deleted!


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## JimH (Dec 20, 2007)

Canuke said:


> Here's an idea: That River Rock lantern is one that uses an electronic switch, and therefore might draw a few microamps of current when off. My RR's routinely give a brief "flash" when I finish installing fresh batteries.
> 
> Normally that's no big deal, but if one of those cells was marginal and discharged to 0V, the other three good cells with their 1.9V each simply push that tiny current through the dead one, slowly reverse charging it. After 8 months, it finally let go.


Hi, everyone. Thanks for your concern about my health. I think I acted quickly enough in clearing the area and evacuating the smoke from the room that I am currently not experiencing any ill effects.

So far, Canuke's explanation of what might have happened seems to be the most logical.

There is no lingering smell in the room, but the drawer where the explosion occurred still smells too bad (when I open it) to start a clean up. When I get a warm day here, I'll open up the house and turn on the whole house fan. Modamag cautions me that I should wear a high performance face mask before attempting any cleanup from a lithium type fire. I'll have to see If I can find one for a reasonable price.


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## jzmtl (Dec 20, 2007)

LED61 said:


> So according to you in numeral one, Panasonic--supposedly the one and only 123 manufacturer is not one of the big three-- ? I am implying this because you have no P***** in numeral 1.
> 
> And the post makes mention of battery manufacturers implying more than one. Whatever, the confusion still lingers no matter how you interpret it.



As far as I know duracell 123a are made by panasonic, so maybe panasonic make 123a for the other two as well.


----------



## batterystation (Dec 20, 2007)

JimH said:


> Hi, everyone. Thanks for your concern about my health. I think I acted quickly enough in clearing the area and evacuating the smoke from the room that I am currently not experiencing any ill effects.
> 
> So far, Canuke's explanation of what might have happened seems to be the most logical.
> 
> There is no lingering smell in the room, but the drawer where the explosion occurred still smells too bad (when I open it) to start a clean up. When I get a warm day here, I'll open up the house and turn on the whole house fan. Modamag cautions me that I should wear a high performance face mask before attempting any cleanup from a lithium type fire. I'll have to see If I can find one for a reasonable price.



JimH,
Please contact me so I can make all of this right with you, including clean up. Get a good mask and fax me the bill. I could speculate as others here but really don't know why this happened. Low current drain caused something to happen? What pisses me off the most is that it got past UL and that was a small fortune towards SAFETY. 

I am sorry and will do what needs to be done to make this up to you. To all on the forum, the fact that we now make the CR123A here does not mean the old ones are defective. We sold 2 million of them and just decided to make them better by bringing them home. We are now selling them to the military but could not before due to origin of manufacturer.

EDIT-Keep in mind this thread will be here long after the sale, but I did just put L-91 AA on the CPF specials page at cost for the weekend. If anyone needs lithium AAs, here they are at cost for a short time to help make up for this.


----------



## sawlight (Dec 20, 2007)

Glad all is well Jim!!!

Good to hear you are taking such care of you're customers!!!! That is awesome service, I don't care who you are or what you think of all of this, thats just above and beyond, I commend you!!!

And you're post saved me PM'ing you, I got to looking and the 123's I have are made in PRC. I was going to ask if it was a "real" safety concern or not, and you answered before I could even ask!!

No matter how you stack it, this was a fluke, and nothing more!! Just very well publicized. Sorry you had to take so much heat for this, but VERY glad to see you stand behind you're product as well as you have!!!!

Just in case, I have NO affiliation with BS, and Kevin wouldn't know me from Adam if we were to meet or talk. I just know how hard it is to start something, then have it publicized that something went wrong!!!


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## Robocop (Dec 20, 2007)

Howard I have to say you seem like a classy man as well and it was nice of you to think this over as you did.....good effort on your part and it is appreciated.

I may get a little angry simply because I know Kevin and all that he has done for us as a group. As a newer member you may not know that he was largly responsible for rechargeable 123 cells coming into the picture and he had a huge amount of bad luck and personal loss in that adventure. The older members will know what I am speaking of however the effort Kevin put forth was incredible. Not sure if this even applies however it goes a long way to show that I do believe BS sales good products and surely appreciates us all.

We all know the risks of certain cells and honestly I still use many BS cells in my lights however I never store any brand of cell in any lights. I reallt think it is a shame that there is a certain doubt on BS cells as Kevin seems to have always done the right thing and has just had crappy luck. I hope others will really see the risks of all cells and continue to use his business....he has been a valuable resource to us all both in the past as well as today.

Sorry to you Howard if I came off a little harsh and again your effort in editing your post is appreciated. It is a pleasure to see newer members with some class and welcome to CPF by the way.


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## sceva (Dec 20, 2007)

JimH; I am glad that you are OK. It sounds like Kevin is trying very much to make you whole on this.

I have used Battery Station cells in my SF E1L and contiue to do so. Since it is a 1 cell light I took advantage of his mis-matched cells offer and bought 50. They are the older imports and I have had very good results with them. They appear to last well in my light. I have only had a problem with 1 of them that was dim when I put it in the light so I just tossed it as the cost on these were only about .60 each. When I use these up (This will take a while I think) I hope to buy another batch of mis-matched cells from BS as they are a great deal and I don't worry about them at all since I limit them to my one cell light.


----------



## Hallis (Dec 20, 2007)

Wow Jim im glad to hear that you're ok. I dont own any of these AA's but own PLENTY of the older BS CR123a (the blue & yellow ones that were $1 each) I keep 8 of them in a Pellican 1010 case and an additional pack of 10 or 20 (cant remember off the top of my head) as they come shipped from BS. I was sitting at my computer one night and i heard a pop real close and immediately shut my eyes and flinched because it scaret the HELL out of me as it was after midnight and i was tired. I opened my eyes to see the rubber back half of my SL Scorpion fall back down onto the desk. I kept it bezel down on my desk right next to my monitor as my go-to emergency light in case the power went off. The light was still sitting in place standing straight up but white smoke was comming from the switch. i touched the aluminum to make sure it wasnt hot and grabbed the light, ran into the restroom and opened it in the sink, Sure enough one of the batteries had popped, the battery didnt 100% discintigrate like yours did but there was an obvious blast pattern on the top of the battery. I disposed of the cells that were in the light and tossed my poor dead scorpion in the trash. I'm just glad the cell vented rather than catching fire. I'd usually been less cautious with primary cells unlike the rechargables which i treat like high explosives and never leave them unattended while charging. 

*shrugs* im not sure what to make of all this. Although now after reading all this (as i usually dont hit the battery forum) as soon as i can put my hands on my pack of CR123's they may be headed to the battery disposal in favor of the newer ones made in this country. 

I'm just glad i stumbled across this thread while looking for sources for a DSD charger for my Pila and Wolf Eyes 150a cells. 

Take care and be safe guys. We take them for granted sometimes but these are little sealed tubes of hazerdous chemical reactions that drive our lumens. 

Shane


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## tvodrd (Dec 20, 2007)

Geez, I just found this thread. Glad you didn't have it stored with your reloading supplies! :green:

I had a RR lantern stolen from my shack back when, and can only hope the last of my BS AA liths were in it. :devil:

Kevin, thank you for trying to bring low cost AA liths to the masses. :bow: (No good deed goes unpunished! :green

Levity aside, I think it's time to "unload" the majority of lights I have laying around, and am unlikely to grab on short notice. The penalties in the past were leaky cells and corroded/ruined lights. The penalties with lith primaries in multi-cell lights today can include having your home burned down!

I suspect Canuke is onto the root cause.

Larry


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## hcd615 (Dec 20, 2007)

Hi Robocop,

Thanks for the kind words. Funny thing is I am not a new forum member. I have been around for 4-5 years. I use to own Bulldog Enterprises and be a dealer on this forum for 2 1/2 years. After talking to Kevin tonight he reminded me that we have done many business deals in the past. He use to buy SF lights from me before he was a SF dealer himself. I sold my business to Dan Legg (TW). I have always lurked and posted from time to time. Recently I have come out since SF has been releasing the new LED lights. I am a SF guy. Dont let the 80 posts fool you  I use to have 100's.


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## hcd615 (Dec 20, 2007)

*I WAS A JERK AND I APOLOGIZE TO KEVIN*

After many emails back and forth Kevin and I realized we have dealt with each other many times in the past. I use to own bulldog Enterprises here on the forum until I sold my company to Dan Legg (TW). I jumped the gun and really kicked a man while he was down. I APOLOGIZE! I know the damage is done, but I have morals and I just wanted to make a new thread so people wouldnt miss my apology in the other thread.

Kevin has explained to me that his 123's and SF123's come from the same plant. I am taking his word and now know he has no problems and only deals in the USA!


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## LED61 (Dec 20, 2007)

*Re: I WAS A JERK AND I APOLOGIZE TO KEVIN*

Looks like I'm going to be buying some of Kevin's new U.S. made batteries!!


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## Alan B (Dec 21, 2007)

Just thought I'd mention that I learned something from this thread. Not about batteries exploding, I've already known about that, but about a good supplier that stands behind his products and hangs in there even when given a bit of a bad time on here. I'm going to remember Kevin (and BatteryStation.com) next time I'm buying some batteries. (update - 50 ordered).

And another thing. That Panasonic is the manufacturer of CR123 batteries in the US. Amazing.

Also, don't leave batteries in series lights with electronic switches, just to be extra safe...

Thanks for your support,

-- Alan


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## hopkins (Dec 22, 2007)

Oh No!!! :huh::sigh: This is a freaking nightmare.

Its like we've advanced our tech to some quazi level of Star-Trek
where the phazer gun is set to overload and will blow the ship apart
if its not disposed of real quick!


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## Lit Up (Dec 22, 2007)

hopkins said:


> Oh No!!! :huh::sigh: This is a freaking nightmare.
> 
> Its like we've advanced our tech to some quazi level of Star-Trek
> where the phazer gun is set to overload and will blow the ship apart
> if its not disposed of real quick!



That's why I use battery types that will allow me to keep the ship and just replace the phaser gun if need be. If most have issue with alkalines and the enviro, prove it by introducing a safer technology than volatile lithium chemistries. 
Cold weather performance vs. the possibility of losing you're biggest investment or worse just does not even out.

I have one lithium battery in my entire household I have to worry with (cellphone) and that's one too many IMO.


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## LuxLuthor (Dec 23, 2007)

Alan B said:


> Just thought I'd mention that I learned something from this thread. Not about batteries exploding, I've already known about that, but about a good supplier that stands behind his products and hangs in there even when given a bit of a bad time on here. I'm going to remember Kevin next time I'm buying some batteries.
> 
> And another thing. That Panasonic is the manufacturer of CR123 batteries in the US. Amazing.
> 
> ...



Ditto on all points! His actions here changed my opinion on B.S. Merry Christmas, Kevin.


----------



## VidPro (Dec 23, 2007)

hopkins said:


> Oh No!!! :huh::sigh: This is a freaking nightmare.
> 
> Its like we've advanced our tech to some quazi level of Star-Trek
> where the phazer gun is set to overload and will blow the ship apart
> if its not disposed of real quick!


 
more like a dream come true.
Aye Capt'n the warp drive just cant take anymore, and were gonna' have a containment breech.
Com'on Scotty just a bit more light, i can almost see the klingons , take it to 110% ,Spock quit your logical wimpering and see if you can get that anti-mater mix to doubble.. More , power, give , me , more power... Sulu, take life support off-line permanentally. O'hura quit hailing with that cellphone and rig the deflector dish for visable light output


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## NA8 (Dec 23, 2007)

VidPro said:


> Com'on Scotty just a bit more light, ...



The reactor's bypassed like a Christmas tree, Captain.

:santa:


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## hopkins (Dec 23, 2007)

*TEN times the bang * of todays Lithium batteries is on the way.
Just imagine, you may be able to do arc welding off of 1 AA cell.
Hope I'm kidding, but check out this .pdf on a recently published paper.

Copy and paste this link into your browsrer address bar and see the 
future thanks to some genious at Stanford.
*Its a .pdf file*

http://www.mitbbs.com/mitbbs_article.php?board=NanoST&id=29990370&ap=449


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## mikehill (Dec 23, 2007)

hopkins said:


> *TEN times the bang * of todays Lithium batteries is on the way.
> Just imagine, you may be able to do arc welding off of 1 AA cell.
> Hope I'm kidding, but check out this .pdf on a recently published paper.
> 
> ...



C&P'd but it doesn't work for me.


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## sawlight (Dec 23, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> Ditto on all points! His actions here changed my opinion on B.S. Merry Christmas, Kevin.


 

Yes indeed!!! I even made it a point to purchase some items from Kevin right before Christmas!!
This has made a very favorable impression on me!!!


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## hopkins (Dec 23, 2007)

Hi Mikehill- some process in the CPF text editor shortens the link - see those '...'
The trick is not to drag you cursor over the link to copy.
Just left click on the link and choose -copy link-
then paste into the top address bar and it'll open.

Just tried it and the MIT bbs still has it up.
The MIT guys are real envious whenever Stanford does a breakthru like this.
Kind of a eastcoast vs westcoast thing. 

http://www.mitbbs.com/mitbbs_article.php?board=NanoST&id=29990370&ap=449


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## mikehill (Dec 23, 2007)

hopkins said:


> Hi Mikehill- some process in the CPF text editor shortens the link - see those '...'
> The trick is not to drag you cursor over the link to copy.
> Just left click on the link and choose -copy link-
> then paste into the top address bar and it'll open.
> ...



Thanks, will try it now


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## JimH (Dec 25, 2007)

batterystation said:


> JimH,
> Please contact me so I can make all of this right with you, including clean up.
> .
> .
> I am sorry and will do what needs to be done to make this up to you.


PM sent with proposal for cleanup.


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## mcmc (Dec 26, 2007)

Kevin is the man. Such a stand up guy.
And he must have a large, large number of customers but he never fails to get back to my emails promptly.

I'm going to be buying some more stuff from him as we speak =)

Way to go Kevin!


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## AndyTiedye (Dec 26, 2007)

Were the blue and yellow BS CR123's and CR2's recalled?
I still have a few of those.


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## jezzyp (Dec 26, 2007)

How do I identify these older BS batteries?

I have both AA and CR123 that I bought around 2 years ago. I've had a few of the AAs go flat whilst in storage (not in any device).


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## soffiler (Dec 26, 2007)

jezzyp said:


> ...I have both AA and CR123 that I bought around 2 years ago. I've had a few of the AAs go flat whilst in storage (not in any device).


 
That supports Canuke's hypothesis regarding JimH's failure. The RR lantern has four AA's in series and an electronic switch that draws a tiny current continuously. If one of those four AA's goes flat all by itself, the other three tend to reverse-charge it as current is drawn from them. The current is tiny so this process will take a long time. 8 months is in the right ballpark.

Message: devices using multiple cells and electronic switches should be stored empty.


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## chiphead (Dec 26, 2007)

Oh bleep! I was caught in the cold with 4 of the CR123 version only to find 4 dead cells! What's up with this? Even with all this technology it's still; BUYER BEWARE!

chiphead


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## SilverFox (Dec 26, 2007)

Hello Steve,

I can follow most of your argument, but we seem to be missing the critical component of heat.

The CR123 testing that had cells predictably catching fire, fell apart when the ambient temperatures dropped below 80 F. Also, the cells that would regularly fail at higher current draws would not fail at lower draws. Even when the instrumentation showed that they were being reversed charged.

What is also interesting is the voltages of the other 3 cells. A parasitic drain should drain all the cells in a series configuration, however 3 of the 4 cells were still showing higher voltages than what you would expect from a drained cell.

If I were to venture a wild guess, I would look for a separator failure that caused an internal short.

Now, having said all of that, it would be interesting to see what it would take to get an Energizer Lithium AA cell to go off...

Tom


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## JimH (Dec 26, 2007)

SilverFox said:


> If I were to venture a wild guess, I would look for a separator failure that caused an internal short.


Tom,

If you would like, I can send you the lantern and 3 remaining cells for an independent post mortem analysis.

Jim


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## shadowjk (Dec 26, 2007)

SilverFox said:


> Now, having said all of that, it would be interesting to see what it would take to get an Energizer Lithium AA cell to go off...




Any creative volunteers?


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## NA8 (Dec 27, 2007)

JimH said:


> Tom,
> 
> If you would like, I can send you the lantern and 3 remaining cells for an independent post mortem analysis.
> 
> Jim



That's a common mistake. Hang on to the physical evidence. It's surprising how many people immediately throw away the evidence when something like this happens. May come in handy someday.


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## soffiler (Dec 27, 2007)

NA8 said:


> That's a common mistake. Hang on to the physical evidence. It's surprising how many people immediately throw away the evidence when something like this happens. May come in handy someday.


 
Hello? JimH is offering to send the evidence to Silverfox... not toss it. If I were to select someone on CPF to do a post-mortem for me, it would probably be Silverfox. There's no mistake being made here.


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## soffiler (Dec 27, 2007)

SilverFox said:


> ...If I were to venture a wild guess, I would look for a separator failure that caused an internal short...


 
Hi Tom:

Just for my own edification, you're saying that this failure would have occured whether the cell was installed in the RR lantern or just sitting there in the drawer?

I know a lot of testing has been done to try to understand 2xCR123A failures with purposely mis-matched cells. Here, we've got a different chemistry and we've got 4x... so, three "healthy" cells to work against one that had spontaneously gone flat (which is just a hypothesis of course).

Not trying to argue or debate here, but looking for education and clarification...


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## SilverFox (Dec 27, 2007)

Hello Steve,

My "wild speculation"  is based on some experiences I have had testing various cells.

I have had both CR123 and L91 cells bulge and vent while being stored for disposal after testing. It is quite rare. Out of the thousands of cells I have tested, I have only had 2 CR123 and 1 L91 cell do this, but it does happen.

I usually am quick to recycle my tested cells, but sometimes I accumulate a pile of used cells. I have a couple of applications that suck every last bit of energy from used cells, so I end up getting double duty from them. 

The "dead" cells are stored in a zip loc bag, usually about 10 to a bag, then the bag is stored on a non combustible surface, usually outside of the house.

The chemical reaction within these cells seems to sometimes continue even when the cell is not hooked up to any circuit. If spent cells sometimes bulge and vent, I can speculate that a cell with more energy in it (only partially used) may be able to rapidly vent with flame.

I also have a NiMh D cell that has bulged. It charges and discharges fine, but the bottom has pushed out about 1/8 inch. I first noticed it when I removed the cells from a light for routine maintenance. The cell was every so slightly dished. I removed the cell from service and set it on the shelf. The bulge grew, sitting on the shelf.

I have no idea what is going on, but it is interesting...

Tom


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## soffiler (Dec 27, 2007)

Hi Tom:

So, based on your personal experience, a depleted cell can spontaneously self-destruct. Rare but it happens.

And based on jezzyp's input, a cell can spontaneously deplete. Probably a pretty rare occurance as well?

So far, we've got rare^2 here. Exceedingly rare. Too rare to hang any hypothesis on, methinks.

Unless, of course, the very same reason the cell spontaneously goes flat also causes it to vent.


----------



## KevinL (Dec 27, 2007)

A small breach in the tightly wound separator material could cause either of these. Depleted cells may have compromised separators as well. 

Thankfully it is a rare occurrence. I don't want it happening to me too often


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## jezzyp (Dec 27, 2007)

Just been round with the ZTS on all my BS batteries (those that I can remember where they are!!)

Cr123a: 
Unused in drawer 
20%
0%
0%
40%
These are 2 years old and supposed to be my emergency stash!

AA
4 in Propoly Lux in car 1
80%
80%
80%
20%

3 in Electrolumens Blaster Jnr in car 2
80%
80%
40%

1 in ultrafire 602A
100%

So my unofficial verdict is that if you have the older BS batteries for "emergency use" test them today as
a) They might not work when you need them (so much for superior storage life)
b) well you've all read Jims post

12 batteries now in bin and looking for some replacements...


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## soffiler (Dec 27, 2007)

Don't forget, jezzyp, that the ZTS can be fooled by cells that have been sitting for a while. You need to run them for a short period of time to "wake up" the chemistry. It doesn't take long... drain roughly 1% or less of their capacity, then retest on ZTS.


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## jezzyp (Dec 27, 2007)

I didn't know that about the ZTS so I got the BS batteries out of the bin.

My fenix p1dCE can only get low mode on 2 of the unused Cr123a's. So I left them on low for a while and retested on the ZTS - still 0%.

I've tried the AAs in a single cell fenix L1P for a while and still no change on the ZTS readings.

I tested all my stored and used energizer lithiums and they are all as I would expect so I think I have some duff BS batteries so they are back in the bin - Thanks for the hint anyway.


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## Rzr800 (Dec 27, 2007)

SilverFox said:


> "...The "dead" cells are stored in a zip loc bag, usually about 10 to a bag, then the bag is stored on a non combustible surface, usually outside of the house..."


 
This is probably a candidate for the dumbest question of 2007...but this newb is going to ask it anyways. 

Ever since I have been (thankfully) taught by you folks to be smart about charging these batteries; I've begun to wonder how they should be properly stored. Can you simply toss any number of batteries (regardless of chemistry) in say your pocket or even crammed/lined up in a keep2go regardless of size or polarity positioning?

You read all these posts about incidents occasionally happening that have (apparently) absolutely nothing to do with the above; yet I suppose that I'd just like to be sure about handling them in all respects.

Thanks once again.


----------



## LuxLuthor (Dec 27, 2007)

Rzr800 said:


> This is probably a candidate for the dumbest question of 2007...but this newb is going to ask it anyways.
> 
> Ever since I have been (thankfully) taught by you folks to be smart about charging these batteries; I've begun to wonder how they should be properly stored. Can you simply toss any number of batteries (regardless of chemistry) in say your pocket or even crammed/lined up in a keep2go regardless of size or polarity positioning?
> 
> ...



That is not at all a dumb question, and as far as I am concerned, the only dumb questions with Lithium cells are the ones you don't ask.

It is always wise to store your cells in such a way that they cannot short against each other or the sides of a (metal) case. If you have any concerns, just put a piece of tape over one end. Most of the instances of "spontaneous explosions" with mostly primary Lithium cells that I have read about are with cells that are in a light.


----------



## SilverFox (Dec 27, 2007)

Hello Rzr800,

First of all, the "dead" cells I was referring to are primary cells and are not rechargeable. Dead means they have been used up.

"Live" cells are stored in the manufacturers packaging, or in suitable containers that will make sure there are not "issues" with cells shorting out.

You can do a search on storing CR123 cells to find a number of ways these cells can be safely stored.

My Li-Ion cells are stored in zip loc bags too. One cell to a bag, then the bag is placed in a fireproof safe. I store my Li-Ion cells at around 3.9 volts. This gives me some run time from the cell if I should need it.

I agree with LuxLuthor... The only dumb question is the question that is not asked.

Tom


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## Hiker (Dec 28, 2007)

If you are concerned regarding toxic intake you may wish to look into hair analysis. My understanding is that it is one of the better ways to determine mineral toxicities, including lithium. 

I imagine much of the medical community does not relate to the approach but has been commonly used by alternative health practiconers for many years. 

It may not be useful in the near term since hair grows out slowly.

It would be good to have a professional order and interpret it for you if it is something you are interested in.


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## Rzr800 (Dec 28, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> "...*If you have any concerns, just put a piece of tape over one end*. Most of the instances of "spontaneous explosions" with mostly primary Lithium cells that I have read about are with cells that are in a light..."


 
*LuxLuthor/SilverFox*, thank you both for the advice. I did just that with the spare L92's I threw in my wife's purse (loose) for her Tiablo A1. In regards to even 'one-in-a-million' and lithium primaries installed...maybe I should switch the L92 in that light over to an alkaline and keep the lithiums in a spare carrier to make certain that I have covered all the bases for her safety (I probably should do the same with the L91 in her new NDI; as I've already switched out the AW protected 14500 for the same 'no chance taken' reasoning).

Peace of mind (again) very much appreciated (I don't think that I'll ever again simply throw batteries together in a pile or even pack them loosely in my keep2gos per your common sense advice).

BTW, it appears as if BS has come on up here and did what they could; which impresses me as compared with a couple of other major distributors I've delt with just recently who were either argumentive or just plain dismissive. Kudos to these guys for confronting problems like this head on and without the (what has sadly become) normal nonsense.


----------



## martytoo (Dec 28, 2007)

Hiker said:


> If you are concerned regarding toxic intake you may wish to look into hair analysis. .
> 
> It would be good to have a professional order and interpret it for you if it is something you are interested in.


 
A professional what?


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## Grox (Dec 28, 2007)

jezzyp said:


> Just been round with the ZTS on all my BS batteries (those that I can remember where they are!!)
> 
> 12 batteries now in bin and looking for some replacements...



If I were you, I would contact batterystation and send the batteries back. My experience has been that they will stand behind their product and replace them - with the new made in USA which is supposedly no different to Duracell, Surefire etc cells. I think that manufacturing those cells in China was a bad move for batterystation - but if you look at Kevin's posts I think he has given the impression that he is a stand-up guy and has tried to rectify that mistake.


----------



## jezzyp (Dec 29, 2007)

Grox said:


> If I were you, I would contact batterystation and send the batteries back. My experience has been that they will stand behind their product and replace them - with the new made in USA which is supposedly no different to Duracell, Surefire etc cells. I think that manufacturing those cells in China was a bad move for batterystation - but if you look at Kevin's posts I think he has given the impression that he is a stand-up guy and has tried to rectify that mistake.



Thanks but given the costs of shipping from the UK to the US and back I think I'll just write this off to experience.


----------



## Grox (Dec 29, 2007)

jezzyp said:


> Thanks but given the costs of shipping from the UK to the US and back I think I'll just write this off to experience.



Fair enough.


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## Alan B (Dec 29, 2007)

Rzr800 said:


> *LuxLuthor/SilverFox*, thank you both for the advice. I did just that with the spare L92's I threw in my wife's purse (loose) for her Tiablo A1. In regards to even 'one-in-a-million' and lithium primaries installed...maybe I should switch the L92 in that light over to an alkaline and keep the lithiums in a spare carrier to make certain that I have covered all the bases for her safety (I probably should do the same with the L91 in her new NDI; as I've already switched out the AW protected 14500 for the same 'no chance taken' reasoning).
> 
> Peace of mind (again) very much appreciated (I don't think that I'll ever again simply throw batteries together in a pile or even pack them loosely in my keep2gos per your common sense advice).
> 
> BTW, it appears as if BS has come on up here and did what they could; which impresses me as compared with a couple of other major distributors I've delt with just recently who were either argumentive or just plain dismissive. Kudos to these guys for confronting problems like this head on and without the (what has sadly become) normal nonsense.


 
Instead of alkalines, which will likely leak and ruin a few lites over the years, I now issue Low Self Discharge NiMH, such as Eneloops or Hybrios. Charge them once or twice per year. They won't explode, nor will they leak and ruin the lite. I only deploy alkalines where I am CERTAIN they will get removed right away when they are depleted and to accomplish that will be checked frequently, or removed whenever the device is not in use.

I received the 50 pack of Eveready EL123A's promptly from Batterystation. Very prompt service, and a great value!

-- Alan


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## Sinjz (Jan 15, 2008)

Sinjz said:


> ...
> 
> Anyway, I've decided to return/exchange the dozen or so lithium AAs I still have. Kevin, can I exchange them for Energizer Lithium AAs? I've already have a boatload of CR123s. Also, do I need a RMA or anything? You can feel free to PM me or post here if you think others have the same questions. Thanks.



Was anybody able to exchange for lithium AAs from Kevin? I returned 10 BS lithium AAs and a few CR123s I dug up (found a few more after I sent them).  Anyway, I wanted Energizer Lithium AAs, even at the reduced rate Kevin offered to exchange them for, but all I got were CR123s.


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## Patriot (Jan 16, 2008)

For some reason I've missed this thread for the last month....:candle:

I can't believe those freaking things!! How many is that now? It makes me angry that they were ever manufactured. Lately I'm more concerned with primaries than I am li-ion. 

Oh well. It's a good reminder to be careful I guess.


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## Hallis (Jan 16, 2008)

Patriot36 said:


> For some reason I've missed this thread for the last month....:candle:
> 
> I can't believe those freaking things!! How many is that now? It makes me angry that they were ever manufactured. Lately I'm more concerned with primaries than I am li-ion.
> 
> Oh well. It's a good reminder to be careful I guess.



I will admit that i own probably a dozen various Li-Ion 4.2v cells. And I have had no problems with them poping. The Only cell I have ever had pop on me was a primary CR123 from BS. It may have been due to a short or something i nthe light that they were in so i dont really think it was the cell. But I am more scared of my primaries than even my unprotected Li-ions, lol. Although I am going to phase the unprotected cells out here next week. 

Shane


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## KingSmono (Jan 16, 2008)

raggie33 said:


> what scares me evn more is the new litium powered cars imagine the amperage that is involved glad u r ok jim



I saw this today, and thought of your post raggie.


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## Templar223 (Jan 16, 2008)

batterystation said:


> I am sorry about that. I wish I could list all the times that all sorts of types and brands of lithium batteries have done this. It is a lot. I am not trying to excuse myself but rather make a very important point. Low percentage in number sold but still happens to all brands. Please everyone be careful when dealing with ALL lithium chemistries. Mostly Polymers right now. They seem to make the biggest fireballs. Please let me know what lights were damaged and I will replace them. Our CR123A is now made in the USA in the hopes of less liklihood of this type of thing happening. That battery passed UL approval too!!! Thousands of dollars spent on making sure it was SAFE! We discontinued this battery under pressure from competition. Please email me and we will make this up to you straight away.




Big Attaboy to Battery station.

Makes me feel good about buying batteries from them.

John


ETA: Are these the 'recalled' lithium batteries from battery station?







If so, then I believe I still have all 20 I got a year or two ago from them... these (blue ones) are just the ones in my concealed carry range bag...


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## Canuke (Jan 18, 2008)

SilverFox said:


> Hello Steve,
> 
> I can follow most of your argument, but we seem to be missing the critical component of heat.
> 
> ...



Well, that raises the question for me (not being a battery expert): how "critical" is heat to vent/combustion events? If a cell never sees temps over 80F but *does* see a long-term reverse current of, say 7uA, would you say that the odds against vent with flame remain as long as they would for that same cell sitting on a shelf?

I just fed 3.6V into my RR lantern from a bench supply, and when "off" it indeed does draw seven microamps (7uA).


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## SilverFox (Jan 18, 2008)

Hello Canuke,

Interesting question... Is heat required to initiate the process, or is heat a byproduct of the breakdown reaction...

I don't know.

The observation during the CR123 testing (not the same chemistry) was that at higher reverse charge currents, the rapid venting with flame would not occur unless the ambient temperature was also higher. It is interesting to note that in the Energizer data sheet for CR123 cells it states that the maximum reverse current is 2uA.

While testing the BatteryStation batteries, a voltage dip was observed at the beginning of the test. This indicates that some passivation is happening within the cell. It is my wild guess that this passivation process somehow breached the separator and caused the cell to short out. Once the cell shorts out, we have the heat needed to continue the venting process.

I believe the lantern runs the cells in series and that voltage available, from the other cells, to try to reverse charge that cell was more like 5.26 volts. What current draw do you get when you power your lantern with that voltage? 

With the switch in the "off" position, does the current increase when the voltage goes up, or does it drop off?

Tom


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## Illum (Jan 18, 2008)

SilverFox said:


> Hello Canuke,
> 
> Interesting question... Is heat required to initiate the process, or is heat a byproduct of the breakdown reaction...



I think its both
Gizmo made a thread called "the paradox of thermal relief " that told of lights, when chilled below the normal operating temperature, the emitter gives out more light but batteries don't perform as well. I'm inclined to think heat is required to initiate the chemical reaction for typical cells, but cr123As from the NewBie's disassembly shows they are merely "electrodes" rolled into one another...almost the same design as an electrolytic capacitor. so I don;t understand why heat would be necessary.

leaving the battery discharging at a specified current load for an extended period of time heats the battery up...but the moment it begins to breakdown its following the same cycle as thermal runaway of say Li/SO2 cells, as depicted in a 5590 battery vent test [I think youtube?]


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## Mr Happy (Jan 18, 2008)

Canuke said:


> I just fed 3.6V into my RR lantern from a bench supply, and when "off" it indeed does draw seven microamps (7uA).


A further note for anyone who might be interested. I have one of the Mk II River Rock LED lanterns and this one definitely has a current draw while switched off -- it has a flashing green LED to help locate it in the dark. The instructions claim a 2 year battery life while switched off due to the LED current. Since I don't want to waste my batteries on the night finder I will be storing it with the batteries removed.


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## Patriot (Jan 18, 2008)

Hallis said:


> But I am more scared of my primaries than even my unprotected Li-ions, lol. Although I am going to phase the unprotected cells out here next week.



Shane, are you phasing out the unprotected cells just to play it safe or have you had issues with them?

Paul


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## Canuke (Jan 25, 2008)

SilverFox said:


> Hello Canuke,
> 
> I believe the lantern runs the cells in series and that voltage available, from the other cells, to try to reverse charge that cell was more like 5.26 volts. What current draw do you get when you power your lantern with that voltage?
> 
> ...



The cells do indeed run in series. At 3.6V, the lantern takes 7uA; this current rises to 11uA at 5.3V and to 12uA at 6V. I didn't take it further than that, seeing as that's the expected nominal maximum voltage, and I like my RR mk I's.  

I used the same unit for all tests.


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## SilverFox (Jan 25, 2008)

Hello Canuke,

Thanks for the additional information.

Now all we have to figure out is how this one cell got fully discharged while the other cells remained nearly at full potential.

I am still going with my wild guess that the cell failed internally, however the additional reverse charge current may have helped things along.

Tom


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## Canuke (Jan 27, 2008)

SilverFox said:


> I am still going with my wild guess that the cell failed internally, however the additional reverse charge current may have helped things along.
> 
> Tom



That's what I was thinking -- the internal failure, defect or whatever is the only way to account for the three good cells retaining their voltage. The reverse charging is my idea for why the bad one didn't stay dead after it failed.


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## madmax718 (Jan 30, 2008)

I'll just put my two cents in:

I have a few energizer L92's AA size lithiums. I dont use em much, but they are good in the "emergency" category. 

I have also purchased about 40-50 CR123's from BS, and also from other sources that had carried BS branded CR123's. 

I haven't had any significant issues. I go through about 30-50 CR123's a year. 

All had a smell, even the surefires. I would think to some extent, that if the light is properly designed, there is no shorting possibility. I like to point out that SF packs batteries in the flashlight, and I havent heard of one (not saying there hasnt, but I personally have not) heard of any SF lights exploding in the packaging. 

I also dont do any cell matching either- I know that was one of the big things, about matching the voltages comparable to the other cell. My lights get used hard, so I dunno. No problem yet.

Plus, I have to say, I just emailed battery station and they replied to me within 10 minutes. Thats some customer service. 

Try calling energizer and saying a battery exploded and see if they stand behind their product.


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## JimH (Feb 13, 2008)

Kudos and many thanks to Kevin at battery station. If everybody gave service like this, they'd have so much business there wouldn't be any recession.

I just got back all the stuff I sent Kevin for cleaning.

Here's a picture of what all needed to be cleaned:





First Kevin had UPS pick up the stuff. He cleaned all of it himself rather than risk sending it out. He did an excellent job of cleaning everything. He couldn't get the smell out of the head band for my head light so he gave me a brand new K2 Luxeon Headstream Headlamp.

He also threw in a bunch of BS CR123 batteries, 8 bunny Li AA primaries, and a replacement lantern for my busted River rock lantern.
.
Way to go Kevin



.
This definitely what I call service above and beyond the call.


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## mcmc (Feb 14, 2008)

Wow. I can't believe how much stuff you had to send him! That must have taken him a WHILE to clean!

What a guy! =)


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