# Ra Clicky Part 3



## HDS_Systems (May 23, 2008)

[Note: this thread is continued from the previous thead. The post below is from the first post of the thread made on May 23, 2008]


I know many of you have been waiting a long time for this announcement. Wait no longer.

This thread is to discuss the technical aspects of the upcoming Ra Clicky flashlight. A preliminary description can be viewed here. We will be expanding the information available over the next month.

Henry.


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## SaturnNyne (Sep 24, 2008)

HDS_Systems said:


> What you will see if you look closely are many improvements over the previous designs that were the starting point for the prototype's mechanical design . . . *Improved positive contact protection. Elimination of a couple of battery compartment issues.*


That has me curious! Thanks for sharing a few more details.




Stillphoto said:


> Sat, I don't think anyone thought he might have grabbed bodies on the way out. Henry is a business man plain and simple. No insults there. I think you'd agree by Henry's own description that it at least sounds Novatac-ish.


To be clear, I'm not insulted, I don't think anyone was being intentionally insulting, and I don't think anyone actually believed that's what happened. I don't mean anyone actually suggested something like that happened in any way. It's just that it was poorly worded, referring to them as "NovaTac bodies" conjures disagreeable images of something that isn't true. Yes, clearly they're NovaTac-style (to what degree we don't know precisely yet, but probably very very similar), but they're not NT bodies, they're EDC bodies without the EDC model name. That brand has nothing to do with them except that the protos will look more like the EDC they marketed than the previous HDS EDC. Beyond that, I think we should limit our mentioning of competing companies in a Ra thread, just as Henry himself does.




h2oflyer said:


> The difference between a puppy and a flashohlic is a puppy eventually stops whining!


Good call.


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## Sgt. LED (Sep 24, 2008)

When they start shipping I will give these a good hard look.
At a cursory glance I do like them. We shall see what the ship date actually ends up being, delays are not always a bad thing if it means a bug free product.
Good luck Henry!


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## hojobones (Sep 25, 2008)

do you think the 120c would run cooler color wise than the gt? Cooler is fine with me, warmer not so much. Also, is the bezel also available in black? This light is looking like my next must have!


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## Thujone (Sep 25, 2008)

hojobones said:


> do you think the 120c would run cooler color wise than the gt? Cooler is fine with me, warmer not so much. Also, is the bezel also available in black? This light is looking like my next must have!



This is my question but reversed... The GT seems to be on the cool side, hoping that the other models run warmer


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## Dead_Nuts (Sep 25, 2008)

I almost bought another high-end light yesterday. Not in place of the Clicky, but just so I would have something new to play with. How sick am I? It was a very nice light, but didn't offer anything that my current collection doesn't already offer me. I was counting on the Clicky being my September fix, but instead I had to send a 50% deposit on a custom pistol. Now, I have that to wait for -- maybe I'll stop whining about this light.

Nah!


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## karlthev (Sep 25, 2008)

Thujone said:


> This is my question but reversed... The GT seems to be on the cool side, hoping that the other models run warmer



Hmmm, my HDSU60GT is much warmer than my HDSU60....luck of the draw...?


karl


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## Enzo Morocioli (Sep 25, 2008)

Dead_Nuts said:


> Now, I have that to wait for -- maybe I'll stop whining about this light.
> Nah!



Man, I know what you mean.

I want to discuss this light more, such as what the tailcap button looks and feels like, what the clip looks like and how it feels in the hand, and the signal path improvement. Pretty much everything I want to know about will be learned of when the Clicky gets into our hands, but dang, curiosity is running very high.

I can only imagine what Henry feels right now, having many of us nearly frothing at the mouth over this torch.. (maybe that's just me......)

Let's all just send massive waves of encouragement and support to Henry and his vendors.. :tinfoil:


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## Oddjob (Sep 25, 2008)

Dead_Nuts said:


> I almost bought another high-end light yesterday. Not in place of the Clicky, but just so I would have something new to play with. How sick am I? It was a very nice light, but didn't offer anything that my current collection doesn't already offer me. I was counting on the Clicky being my September fix, but instead I had to send a 50% deposit on a custom pistol. Now, I have that to wait for -- maybe I'll stop whining about this light.
> 
> Nah!


 
I know what you mean. I bought a AMc Mule yesterday probably movitated by wanting something new to play with. Fortunately the mule offers something I don't have in my collection and its something I have wanted for a while now anyways.


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## cave dave (Sep 25, 2008)

I think maybe I'll buy a Ra Clicky and then never visit CPF again. 


I wonder how that would work out.

So is a 18650 tube planned for the Ra clicky? This thread has been running so long I can't remember.


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## Bronco (Sep 25, 2008)

Enzo Morocioli said:


> I want to discuss this light more, such as what the tailcap button looks and feels like...



I'll second that emotion. 

Do you guys think the "clicky" on this light is really going to click, or do you suppose it's going to be more of a "mushy" like on the old HDCs?


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## toby_pra (Sep 26, 2008)

This will be a nice CLICK i hope...


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## Enzo Morocioli (Sep 26, 2008)

toby_pra said:


> This will be a nice CLICK i hope...



Haha... 

For me.. I hope it's as quiet as possible...


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## HDS_Systems (Sep 26, 2008)

HojoBones,

GT makes no difference in the operating temperature or the runtime. Statistically, the 100s will run cooler and have longer runtimes than the 120s, even though both meet the same minimum runtime specifications.

Black may become an option in the future.

Thujone,

If you look at the statistical distribution of LED - admittedly difficult to come by - you will see that it is more difficult to get LEDs that are lower in color temperature while still close to the black body curve. This is why early LEDs of lower color temperature tended to be greenish. In very broad terms, LEDs using the standard technology tend to range from greenish yellow to blue-purplish, crossing the black body curve in the range of 6500 degrees K. The GT tints with acceptable output are only produced roughly 1% of the time - making them fairly rare. Getting lower in color temperature at the same output levels is even rarer.

Cave Dave,

We are planning on a 17670 for the Ra Clicky. I will be using them to explore Snowy River (Ft Stanton, New Mexico). For those of you who don't know, the Snowy River formation is now thought to be the longest single formation in the world - over 4.1 miles long - with no end in sight. Mapping trips are exceeding 24 hours in length - over 16 hours of travel (5 hours of which is crawling) and 8 hours of mapping. Not your average walk through the park.

Bronco,

The Ra Clicky really goes click. We strive for no mush.

Henry.


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## orcinus (Sep 26, 2008)

HDS_Systems said:


> The Ra Clicky really goes click. We strive for no mush.



:laughing:

Sounds like a great tagline


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## lumenlover2 (Sep 26, 2008)

Hope it`s not a loud click like on my fenix lights... otherwise i won`t have to use low mode at night for not waking anyone up the click will do it


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## orcinus (Sep 26, 2008)

Buy an additional Twisty for the silent night walks


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## karlthev (Sep 26, 2008)

Henry, my reference to "warmer" was in relation to color temperature.


Karl


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## Thujone (Sep 26, 2008)

HDS_Systems said:


> Cave Dave,
> 
> We are planning on a 17670 for the Ra Clicky. I will be using them to explore Snowy River (Ft Stanton, New Mexico). For those of you who don't know, the Snowy River formation is now thought to be the longest single formation in the world - over 4.1 miles long - with no end in sight. Mapping trips are exceeding 24 hours in length - over 16 hours of travel (5 hours of which is crawling) and 8 hours of mapping. Not your average walk through the park.
> 
> Henry.



This sounds like an amazing trip. I did some research, looks like it is neigh impossible to get into though.



> Areas of Fort Stanton Cave are open to those who get permits from the BLM, but Snowy River - deep in the cave behind locked metal gates - is off-limits. It's unlikely Snowy River ever will be open to anything but research because of the fragility of the tiny calcite crystals and microbes on the cave walls.



How did you luck out? Consider me jealous! Enjoy your trip and be safe!


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## SaturnNyne (Sep 26, 2008)

cave dave said:


> I think maybe I'll buy a Ra Clicky and then never visit CPF again.


Excellent plan!


cave dave said:


> I wonder how that would work out.


Probably well, for a week or two.




HDS_Systems said:


> We are planning on a 17670 for the Ra Clicky. I will be using them to explore Snowy River (Ft Stanton, New Mexico). For those of you who don't know, the Snowy River formation is now thought to be the longest single formation in the world - over 4.1 miles long - with no end in sight. Mapping trips are exceeding 24 hours in length - over 16 hours of travel (5 hours of which is crawling) and 8 hours of mapping.


That sounds like an incredible trip, I hope you'll tell us about it when you return. It'd also be nice to hear any other stories you'd like to share; I know you're active in caving and S&R, so you must have some good adventures under your belt.

That reminds me of the question I've been meaning to ask for over a month:
What settings do _you_ use, Henry? Are the factory settings what you find preferable and have set on your own light, or are they just what you think will work best for the most customers? What are the priorities and uses that influence your own choice of levels and settings? Which varieties of your lights do you use and carry? I don't want to pry, but I hope you wouldn't mind sharing a little.



HDS_Systems said:


> The Ra Clicky really goes click. We strive for no mush.


Does it click to a greater degree than past switches though? Is it more audible?


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## cave dave (Sep 26, 2008)

HDS_Systems said:


> Cave Dave,
> 
> We are planning on a 17670 for the Ra Clicky....
> 
> Henry.



I don't understand why you would go for the 17670 tube. Wouldn't an 18650 tube be the same finished size. I would understand it if the 17670 size was compatible with both 2 x CR123 and 17670, but as I understand it that would overvolt the driver. So if you can only run one kind of battery (LiIon) in a larger size tube why not go with the larger capacity one. Tube walls too thin for the durability you want or something?

PS Snowy River sounds cool but 5 hrs of crawling don't sound like much fun. Guess I'm not that hardcore a caver.


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## SaturnNyne (Sep 26, 2008)

cave dave said:


> I don't understand why you would go for the 17670 tube. Wouldn't an 18650 tube be the same finished size. I would understand it if the 17670 size was compatible with both 2 x CR123 and 17670, but as I understand it that would overvolt the driver. So if you can only run one kind of battery (LiIon) in a larger size tube why not go with the larger capacity one. Tube walls too thin for the durability you want or something?


I asked the question too: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2611370&postcount=327
His answer: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2611612&postcount=329


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## Kid9P (Sep 28, 2008)

Tick.....Tock....


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## Dead_Nuts (Sep 29, 2008)

Its always good to hear from Henry; even if he isn't announcing a shipping product. Sounds like he has quite the adventure lined up.


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## HDS_Systems (Sep 29, 2008)

Karl,

The GT tints tend to be the warmest you get without going green or without changing phosphor technology. To go significantly warmer - closer to 4000K - requires a different phosphor technology and those are generally 15 to 20% lower in output. My experience is that very few people want to give up 15 to 20% of their output to get significantly warmer.

Thujone,

I "lucked out" by paying dues like everyone else. I have spent a lot of time underground doing a lot of research. I can set up sterile theater and perform microbiology underground in a place where there is not a level or clean place to be found. I and many others like me have helped biologists and other scientists get to difficult locations to perform experiments and helped them develop protocols that can be performed under difficult conditions and even transported the bulk of the stuff needed to perform the experiments. I also have a good reputation in the caving community, I play well on a survey team and I am able to keep up on these long endurance trips. Photography, cave radio and other skills also help.

If you are competent underground and willing/able to perform hard work, there are trips you can get on.

SaturnNyne,

I use the default settings most of the time. I find that under real conditions, they provide optimum performance. The only change I make to factory options is to enable automatic turn-off. I personally prefer the clicky-style interface and so that is what I carry.

The click is distinct but not overly loud with good tactile feedback.

Cave Dave,

The reason for 17mm vs 18mm has more to do with the internal layout of components rather than external dimensions.

If crawling 5 hours on Snow River is too much, how about 1/4 mile each way going back through Hell Hole #1. It is broken up into three sections. I was amazed at how little time all three crawls took - only about an hour and a half total in each direction. Hell Hole #1 dig trips are only running 10 to 12 hours so you can be back to the field house in time for dinner. 

Henry.


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## orcinus (Sep 29, 2008)

I've always been meaning to ask, but never did...
Do you keep a photo gallery of some sort somewhere on-line?


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## Valpo Hawkeye (Sep 29, 2008)

Where are the Clicky's as far as production? Assembly, testing or waiting for parts from the vendors?


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## tricker (Sep 29, 2008)

> Cave Dave,
> 
> The reason for 17mm vs 18mm has more to do with the internal layout of components rather than external dimensions.
> 
> ...




Henry, curiosity killed the cat


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## SaturnNyne (Sep 29, 2008)

HDS_Systems said:


> The GT tints tend to be the warmest you get without going green or without changing phosphor technology.


Sounds good, exactly what I was hoping to hear.



HDS_Systems said:


> SaturnNyne,
> 
> I use the default settings most of the time. I find that under real conditions, they provide optimum performance. The only change I make to factory options is to enable automatic turn-off. I personally prefer the clicky-style interface and so that is what I carry.
> 
> The click is distinct but not overly loud with good tactile feedback.


Thank you for indulging my curiosity. I'm not surprised you mostly use the defaults; I've always been impressed by how sensibly setup your lights tend to be from the factory, though I do like to make some minor changes to mine.


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## John N (Sep 29, 2008)

HDS_Systems said:


> Cave Dave,
> 
> The reason for 17mm vs 18mm has more to do with the internal layout of components rather than external dimensions.



Will we see 18650 support in the future, or are we out of luck? I'm hoping the former, since I've pretty much adopted the 18650 as my "standard" rechargeable option (which includes my EDC U85).

-john


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## HDS_Systems (Sep 29, 2008)

Valpo Hawkeye,

The last of the parts are finally showing up. I expect the last of the parts to be here later this week. If that happens, shipping will begin roughly two weeks after that.

Orcinus,

I do not have a web gallery.

John N,

That remains to be seen. My personal preference is 18670 so if there is a way to make it work I will do so.

Henry.


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## toby_pra (Sep 30, 2008)

Very good news Henry....


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## Dead_Nuts (Sep 30, 2008)

I could have my Clicky in time to light up the pranksters on Halloween.


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## smokelaw1 (Sep 30, 2008)

And the customization guide will be up....uh...soon? 

Thanks for the info Henry!


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## John N (Sep 30, 2008)

HDS_Systems said:


> John N,
> 
> That remains to be seen. My personal preference is 18670 so if there is a way to make it work I will do so.
> 
> Henry.



Thanks!

-john


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## karlthev (Sep 30, 2008)




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## m16a (Sep 30, 2008)

Dead_Nuts said:


> I could have my Clicky in time to light up the pranksters on Halloween.





:devil:


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## SaturnNyne (Oct 1, 2008)

Welcome to October, everyone. I hope you're all enjoying the exercising of your patience as much as I am.


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## Kid9P (Oct 1, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> Welcome to October, everyone. I hope you're all enjoying the exercising of your patience as much as I am.


 
I'm starting to feel like the young grasshopper trying to snatch the pebbles from his masters hand.....oo:


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## Dead_Nuts (Oct 1, 2008)

> Patience is the companion of wisdom. -- Saint Augustine


:thumbsup:


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## tricker (Oct 1, 2008)

i have a lonely wisdom


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## Oddjob (Oct 1, 2008)

and I have a lonely patience :ironic:


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## toby_pra (Oct 2, 2008)

hmmm i dont know how i feel....


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## Haz (Oct 2, 2008)

'Good things comes to those who wait'


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## Dead_Nuts (Oct 2, 2008)

> " A man who is master of patience is master of everything else."
> -- George Savile


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## Dead_Nuts (Oct 2, 2008)

Crap! I went ahead and ordered 2 new lights: a Bitz and EDC-P7 by ElectroLumens. The Bitz is in the mail and the EDC-P7 is supposed to ship next week some time. This is going to be an expensive flashlight month . . .


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## Ritch (Oct 2, 2008)

This looks like a waiting room in a natal clinic. We all are sitting side by side, fathers waiting for their babies.


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## orcinus (Oct 2, 2008)

The wait actually suits me...
More time to recuperate my ailing bank account in expectance of the Clicky


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## m16a (Oct 2, 2008)

orcinus said:


> The wait actually suits me...
> More time to recuperate my ailing bank account in expectance of the Clicky




Similarly with me, it gives me the time to actually EARN the money:thumbsup:


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## divine (Oct 2, 2008)

I don't understand the burst mode... why would anyone want 170 lumens for 10 seconds besides bragging rights?

Will there be a 120 lumen RA Clicky without the burst mode?


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## tebore (Oct 2, 2008)

divine said:


> I don't understand the burst mode... why would anyone want 170 lumens for 10 seconds besides bragging rights?
> 
> Will there be a 120 lumen RA Clicky without the burst mode?



You can turn off the burst mode by setting it one level down.


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## Valpo Hawkeye (Oct 2, 2008)

divine said:


> I don't understand the burst mode... why would anyone want 170 lumens for 10 seconds besides bragging rights?
> 
> Will there be a 120 lumen RA Clicky without the burst mode?



When checking for something in a dark alley or a dark spot in the yard, I'll take every lumen I can get but I usually only need it for a moment, i.e. 10 seconds or less. Makes perfect sense to me.


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## mr.vu (Oct 3, 2008)

HDS_Systems said:


> My personal preference is 18670 so if there is a way to make it work I will do so.



Thats great to hear! I would love to be able to use 18650s.


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## orcinus (Oct 3, 2008)

divine said:


> I don't understand the burst mode... why would anyone want 170 lumens for 10 seconds besides bragging rights?



For the same reason you'd want high beams on a car...


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## karlthev (Oct 3, 2008)

+1


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## Dead_Nuts (Oct 3, 2008)

Yes, if you don't like the burst mode, you don't have to even have it available. Makes everyone happy!


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## SaturnNyne (Oct 3, 2008)

Dead_Nuts said:


> Yes, if you don't like the burst mode, you don't have to even have it available. Makes everyone happy!


Nothing makes everyone happy; I think we've seen that in how many times we've had to go through replays of this same discussion.


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## Enzo Morocioli (Oct 3, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> Nothing makes everyone happy; I think we've seen that in how many times we've had to go through replays of this same discussion.



Agreed.. I think perhaps we're all just a little fidgety. :duh2:
The release of the Clicky is like one of those suspense thriller movies where everybody is on the edge of their seat, clutching the armrests. 

Just don't spill your popcorn when Henry finally gives the green light.


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## Kid9P (Oct 3, 2008)

Hopefully I won't run out of popcorn, seems like a looooong movie.


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## toby_pra (Oct 4, 2008)

Kid9P said:


> Hopefully I won't run out of popcorn, seems like a looooong movie.


 
:shakehead:candle:


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## StandardBattery (Oct 4, 2008)

Kid9P said:


> Hopefully I won't run out of popcorn, seems like a looooong movie.


_I hate it when that happens!_


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## Dead_Nuts (Oct 4, 2008)

Or running out of soda, so you can't eat any more of the popcorn.

I try not to get to the theater until 5-10 minutes after the show time. That way, I don't eat half the popcorn during the trailers.


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## bullfrog (Oct 5, 2008)

Seems like an obvious question but just spent 45 mins looking for the answer in older posts with no luck:

*Why no red output on the clicky?

*This is going to be one awesome light!


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## StandardBattery (Oct 5, 2008)

bullfrog said:


> Seems like an obvious question but just spent 45 mins looking for the answer in older posts with no luck:
> 
> *Why no red output on the clicky?*
> 
> This is going to be one awesome light!


We'll if my memory is working; It came down to supporting Red or the new Boost feature. I can't remember the details if they were given, but the two features could not be supported together and it came down to deciding that the new Boost was a feature people wanted more. 

I really wanted it at one time, but now with my red Photon Freedom, Protons, other fauxton, Skylight, 85Tr, Coast 4 color, and probably a few others I've decided that an additional Red is not that important; and would certainly want a better implementation than in the twisty. Maybe it will comeback in the future. Right now I'll also take the Boost as it might mean I don't need to carry a bigger blaster as often, and I don't mind packing a Photon. It is sort of like my Swiss army knives, I'd rather carry two than try to cram everything into one and make it too big and awkward... so the Photon Freedom handles my Red need so well, I don't want to compromise the Clicky for Red.


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## SaturnNyne (Oct 5, 2008)

bullfrog said:


> *Why no red output on the clicky?*


From Henry:


> We implemented a new power supply for the Ra Clicky so we could offer a highly requested feature that is very useful to almost any flashlight user. We had to give up dim red in the bargain. However, because of changes in the product offerings of the LED manufacturer that supplied our dim red LEDs, it proved to be the correct choice. Those LEDs will not be offered in the higher output classes that we need going forward so this was the correct time to eliminate the feature. So dim red will remain a feature unique to the Ra Twisty.



As StandardBattery suggested, it's assumed that the "highly requested feature" must be the burst function.


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## ivanchek (Oct 5, 2008)

Not sure if this has been adressed as this forum has gone on for what seems like forever, but is the strobe on the Clicky going to be a real tactical/ dirorienting strobe, or more of an S.O.S style one? Will the user be able to change the strobe frequency, or is this something which is as of yet unknown?


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## orcinus (Oct 5, 2008)

AFAIK, unknown until the customization guide comes out...


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## Valpo Hawkeye (Oct 5, 2008)

I would imagine it would be similar to the Nova's since that was an evolution of the original HDS's. However, this is pure speculation...


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## SaturnNyne (Oct 5, 2008)

ivanchek said:


> Not sure if this has been adressed as this forum has gone on for what seems like forever, but is the strobe on the Clicky going to be a real tactical/ dirorienting strobe, or more of an S.O.S style one? Will the user be able to change the strobe frequency, or is this something which is as of yet unknown?


The Clicky will have a tactical strobe as well as an SOS and a "beacon-style" strobe/flasher. As the others suggested, it's assumed that, as on previous models, frequency will not be adjustable.


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## ivanchek (Oct 6, 2008)

Thats good to here the strobe will be able to cover both tactical and S.O.S applicaions. Just adds a little more to the versatility of a light (not that the Clicky needs it).


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## paxxus (Oct 6, 2008)

Will strobe be 120 lumens or will it be 170 lumes (or higher)?


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## kindred_spirits (Oct 6, 2008)

I hate to say this, since its been already said many times, but is there any updates on when its going to be released? I just sold off most of my lights and hope the Ra Clicky will be my last EDC light I buy.


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## gottawearshades (Oct 6, 2008)

, Henry.



kindred_spirits said:


> I hate to say this, since its been already said many times, but is there any updates on when its going to be released?


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## Dead_Nuts (Oct 6, 2008)

[TOTAL GUESS!] Last we heard, Henry was looking at a couple of weeks to finish up. That should put shipping items out by month's end. [/TOTAL GUESS!]


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## SnWnMe (Oct 6, 2008)

kindred_spirits said:


> I hate to say this, since its been already said many times, but is there any updates on when its going to be released? I just sold off most of my lights and hope the Ra Clicky will be my last EDC light I buy.


 
An oft repeated refrain I'm sure :nana:


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## orcinus (Oct 6, 2008)

kindred_spirits said:


> I just sold off most of my lights and hope the Ra Clicky will be my last EDC light I buy.



:laughing::laughing::laughing:

Coming from a(ny) visitor of this forum, that's a bit like a wino saying: "This is going to be the last bottle i'm going to open!" :naughty:


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## SnWnMe (Oct 6, 2008)




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## shomie911 (Oct 6, 2008)

orcinus said:


> :laughing::laughing::laughing:
> 
> Coming from a(ny) visitor of this forum, that's a bit like a wino saying: "This is going to be the last bottle i'm going to open!" :naughty:



Hey, it's possible.

The RA Twisty 85-TR completely stopped my EDC flashlight purchases.

So I'm sure the RA Clicky could do the same for him.

Now I just hope that the C2 + M60 stops my full-size flashlight purchases, atleast until some amazing new LED comes out, in which case, I just buy a new drop-in.

Anyway, getting off topic, the RA Clicky could very well be the end-all EDC for a lot of people for a while to come.

And for us twisty fans, there's still *the* Twisty. :twothumbs


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## SaturnNyne (Oct 6, 2008)

paxxus said:


> Will strobe be 120 lumens or will it be 170 lumes (or higher)?


The tactical strobe will be 170lm. I'm not sure about the SOS and emergency strobe, but I'm guessing they'll remain at 120. When Henry gave us the hint that burst would allow him to implement something he'd long ago said would be useful, he was referring to the brighter tactical strobe.


Edit: Wow, Shomie, I think that's the first straddling double post I've ever seen.

And the Clicky has actually already stopped my flashlight buying. I bought it a couple months ago and lost interest in all other lights. I just don't need anything else right now, all bases are covered and the Clicky will take care of a few minor issues that have been complicating my edc setup. For now, aside from maybe the occasional interesting niche light or something cheap for a friend, I'm done. We'll see how long this lasts, but I'm at about two months and counting, just patiently awaiting the arrival.


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## shomie911 (Oct 6, 2008)

orcinus said:


> :laughing::laughing::laughing:
> 
> Coming from a(ny) visitor of this forum, that's a bit like a wino saying: "This is going to be the last bottle i'm going to open!" :naughty:



Hey, it's possible.

The RA Twisty 85-TR completely stopped my EDC flashlight purchases.

So I'm sure the RA Clicky could do the same for him.

Now I just hope that the C2 + M60 stops my full-size flashlight purchases, atleast until some amazing new LED comes out, in which case, I just buy a new drop-in.

Anyway, getting off topic, the RA Clicky could very well be the end-all EDC for a lot of people for a while to come.

And for us twisty fans, there's still *the* Twisty. :twothumbs


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## Dead_Nuts (Oct 7, 2008)

I thought a straddling double-post was some kind of gymnastics routine.


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## LLCoolBeans (Oct 7, 2008)

Alright, I've been very patient, but I'm starting to break down. Gaaaaaa! Where is my prototype!? I want to click NOW!


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## Dead_Nuts (Oct 7, 2008)

Let the meltdowns begin!


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## radiomanss (Oct 8, 2008)

Add me to the list of "also waiting." Not melting down, at least yet.


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## toby_pra (Oct 8, 2008)

Are there any new updates about the coming sales???:mecry:


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## Dead_Nuts (Oct 8, 2008)

Henry is also trying to keep up with the demand for Twisties. I ordered a 100-Tr last week and was told they are waiting on them from Ra. So, while he's trying to get the new products out the door, he's still filling orders for existing products.


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## d_rasp (Oct 8, 2008)

Looking forward to hearing more first-hand accounts of this light. Just recently lost my P3D which I EDC and use heavily in my work - need a new light soon as I've fallen back on my old friend the X5 & it's not really getting the job done. . . hard to believe there was a time, years ago, when the X5 impressed the heck out of me! (still does, just not in the same way, it'll always be a little tank!)


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## Oddjob (Oct 8, 2008)

After the initial announcement of the Clickie I figured it would be October before it was shipped so expecting this I am still patiently waiting. If you say something enought times you start to believe it...hey its working. 

But seriously, I bought a McGizmo AMc mule and a Nautilus recently and they'll tide me over for the fall. I thinking a Clickie will be a nice Christmas present to myself.


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## yotom (Oct 8, 2008)

@ Oddjob

Christmas which year?


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## Oddjob (Oct 8, 2008)

yotom said:


> @ Oddjob
> 
> Christmas which year?


 
Good point.


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## radiomanss (Oct 8, 2008)

The Nautilus is a great light, and its two settings really serve most purposes. But I am still waiting to see that 170 cp burst on the Clicky. I also wonder how efficient it will be at low settings: the Nautilus and the Aeon are real champs at the low setting.


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## paxxus (Oct 9, 2008)

:sleepy: :candle:


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## Dead_Nuts (Oct 9, 2008)

paxxus said:


> :sleepy: :candle:


+1


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## lumenlover2 (Oct 9, 2008)

Dead_Nuts said:


> +1


 

+1000  we need MORE INFO ; PICS; ETC: DO YOU HEAR ME HENRY


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## SaturnNyne (Oct 9, 2008)

lumenlover2 said:


> +1000  we need MORE INFO ; PICS; ETC: DO YOU HEAR ME HENRY


Actually, we probably don't need it. I think we're gonna survive this. And when more is available, more will be given. And then we'll all be happy for an hour and spill forth our praises before demanding more. Badgering is unlikely to achieve a positive result.

Do you like tea? Mmm, I love tea. Sometimes, at night, when I've just brewed a large cup of green tea, I'll hold my flashlight above it and enjoy the view of the beam in the steam, the vaporized moisture swirling and dancing as these two enjoyments come together for a moment of harmony. Now that I've checked up on the status of the Clicky and found nothing new, my curiosity is sated for the moment and I think I'm just about ready to make some tea. And then perhaps I'll look out upon the vast Pacific and the unimaginably powerful flashlight reflecting off its every ripple and swell, and I'll ponder the difference between the fury it's capable of and the calmness for which it is named. And then I'll attempt to manifest that stillness within me and reconcile it with the less controlled aspects of my own nature.

This has been a moment of zen for all you Clicky fiends. Take enjoyment from this experience wherever possible; know that this wait is a part of the game as much as the receiving and admiring and fondling and photographing and reviewing and playing with and blinding friends with and actual use of the light. Enjoy the experience in all its aspects, and when you find it becoming a source of anxiety and concern instead of pleasure, seek growth within yourself before projecting it outward in the hope that someone else will provide a temporary fix for your situation; for the problem does not lie in the passage of time or the realities of supplier delays and unexpected setbacks, it lies within us and how we perceive and react to what we encounter.

Unless you desperately need this particular torch to light up spooks on All Hallows' Even, in which case it's time to get to your fidgeting and panicking and pestering. Do you like free candy? Mmm, I love chocolate, though the kind I like rarely comes for free. Good things tend to have their costs.

I think this thread is reaching that point in every announcement thread...


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## SnWnMe (Oct 9, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> Actually, we probably don't need it.


 
You certainly don't speak for all of us. I for one would like to see where the clip would be. It's a small matter but it will affect my final decision.


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## Enzo Morocioli (Oct 9, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> This has been a moment of zen for all you Clicky fiends.



I am at peace. 

"Let Humanity be your only religion, Breath your only prayer, and Consciousness your only god." -Yogi Raj


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## HoopleHead (Oct 9, 2008)

peacefully and patiently waiting here as well. i know itll be all good, and all worth it.


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## SaturnNyne (Oct 9, 2008)

SnWnMe said:


> You certainly don't speak for all of us. I for one would like to see where the clip would be. It's a small matter but it will affect my final decision.


It's not about what you want, it's about what we need. I truly hope you'll live through not seeing what the clip looks like right now and I understand and have sympathy for your desire to know the truth and act upon it immediately, though I have no such need since I have already acquired all I need to know about the Clicky for the present and I have acted. I am at Clicky peace, while you are still attempting to overcome the hurdle of the molle compatible retaining clip. I will not mind if I don't see the clip before it shows up on my doorstep.

The clip will be mounted towards the bezel end, likely in the area of thick material shown on the schematic just behind the bezel. It is unlikely to be on the bezel itself since we already know the Ti bezel is intended to be used on both Twisty and Clicky. It is unlikely to be mounted on the tail so that it runs up the length of the body and back because a) that doesn't work very well and b) it was tried by NT during the prototype stage and discarded in favor of a more conventional design. Wherever the clip is mounted, it seems it will set forth on its journey of pocket retention in a bezalward fashion, approach to within scant distance of the gleaming stainless steel edge so as to provide a deep carry, and then double back into the home stretch, which will likely end somewhere on or near the tail, or perhaps on the waist to provide greater relief distance for the "retaining" feature. The curvaceous band of metal that marks the trail of this journey will likely be somewhat wide like a strong ribbon, for I believe it has been said that this clip will attempt to imitate the form of sturdiness. Also, it's probably got a low vis black coating. If you sit in the lotus position and hum at the correct frequency while pondering what is known, you may find the picture you seek.


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## kromeke (Oct 9, 2008)

Doesn't matter too much anyway, half the CPFers will hate the clip, the other half will like it. Finicky bunch here.

You could try contacting Henry/Ra directly. He has answered the phone himself when I called some time ago. He is also good about responding to email, at least that is my experience. I believe all the contact info is on the website.


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## SnWnMe (Oct 9, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> It's not about what you want, it's about what we need.


 
I never thought I have to quote myself but



SnWnMe said:


> You certainly don't speak for all of us


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## Valpo Hawkeye (Oct 9, 2008)

None of us NEED information on a flashlight. The market has tanked, millions may lose their homes, 80%+ of Americans worry daily about their job and the economy.

Don't get me wrong. I'd _like_ to have more info on the Clicky. Hell, I'd like to have it in my hands given that several deadlines have already come and gone. But let's keep a bit of perspective and not jump all over each other.


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## lumenlover2 (Oct 9, 2008)

Valpo Hawkeye said:


> None of us NEED information on a flashlight. The market has tanked, millions may lose their homes, 80%+ of Americans worry daily about their job and the economy.
> 
> ahh come on .... does the rest of the world even count for ya ?Funny that you speak of the bad financial situation now that you have one . Half the world lives in hunger poverty and without homes for the last hundred years....
> Anyway that`s got nothin to do with flashlights . keep cool


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## shomie911 (Oct 9, 2008)

Buy American made flashlights and save the USA's economy! 

:laughing:


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## SaturnNyne (Oct 9, 2008)

Valpo Hawkeye said:


> Don't get me wrong. I'd _like_ to have more info on the Clicky. Hell, I'd like to have it in my hands given that several deadlines have already come and gone. But let's keep a bit of perspective and not jump all over each other.


Thank you, Valpo, you saved me the trouble.




lumenlover2 said:


> ahh come on .... does the rest of the world even count for ya ?Funny that you speak of the bad financial situation now that you have one . Half the world lives in hunger poverty and without homes for the last hundred years....


Priorities are relevant to the current trend of discussion in this thread and fairly harmless, but this is neither and could be viewed as a personal attack. This isn't the place for a sociopolitical discussion. 



lumenlover2 said:


> Anyway that`s got nothin to do with flashlights . keep cool


Yes. Yes, let's all have a nice tall glass of keep cool with whistle.


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## brucec (Oct 10, 2008)

Maybe I haven't been on this forum for so long, but it seems to me that there is an excessive, almost religious, faith put into some of the dealers here. Granted, I believe the clicky will be a nice flashlight, the fact of the matter is that they are way overdue. I have experience in business, and it would be very appropriate for RA to give some kind of comment at this time seeing as they have missed several timelines. Especially since they have already taken pre-orders and collected people's money. After all, RA is striving to be a mass producer and not a custom builder. Custom builders have the luxury of giving best effort and not guaranteeing specifications. But since RA is selling a mass produced product, people are buying (have already bought) the published specification as well as delivery timeline.


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## cabbynate (Oct 10, 2008)

Rut-Ro Astro!!!!:huh:


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## RainerWahnsinn (Oct 10, 2008)

@brucec

I thank you that you expressed, to which I am not able in this language.:thumbsup:


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## karlthev (Oct 10, 2008)

brucec said:


> Maybe I haven't been on this forum for so long, but it seems to me that there is an excessive, almost religious, faith put into some of the dealers here. Granted, I believe the clicky will be a nice flashlight, the fact of the matter is that they are way overdue. I have experience in business, and it would be very appropriate for RA to give some kind of comment at this time seeing as they have missed several timelines. Especially since they have already taken pre-orders and collected people's money. After all, RA is striving to be a mass producer and not a custom builder. Custom builders have the luxury of giving best effort and not guaranteeing specifications. But since RA is selling a mass produced product, people are buying (have already bought) the published specification as well as delivery timeline.




Understood Bruce but, there are a number of folks who will wait patiently despite the fact that deadlines have been missed. I guess I'm used to the waiting having had to do so for many if not most of the lights (Ra and many others) I have acquired over the past few years. Granted I laid down my money "expecting" (somewhat) I'd have my light by now and, I wish I did but, I'll live without it as will others who have put their money on the line. Now I might speak quite differently if this were a new heart valve which I needed desperately to live but, it isn't. I'd prefer the extra wait and a top notch product which will have as few difficulties as possible.


Karl


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## brucec (Oct 10, 2008)

karlthev said:


> Understood Bruce but, there are a number of folks who will wait patiently despite the fact that deadlines have been missed. I guess I'm used to the waiting having had to do so for many if not most of the lights (Ra and many others) I have acquired over the past few years. Granted I laid down my money "expecting" (somewhat) I'd have my light by now and, I wish I did but, I'll live without it as will others who have put their money on the line. Now I might speak quite differently if this were a new heart valve which I needed desperately to live but, it isn't. I'd prefer the extra wait and a top notch product which will have as few difficulties as possible.
> 
> Karl



Yes, I agree 100% and am myself patiently waiting for what I hope is a fine product. And I doubt if anyone here is truly in need of this flashlight, seeing as there are so many other options on the market. My point is that these pre-paid customers are entitled to a timely explanation from RA on the status of the orders seeing as RA has missed several of its own timelines. RA determined and published these timelines by itself, so I believe it is not unreasonable for some people to be irritated at the lack of an update. And given no explanation, there is no reason to expect that RA is using this extra time on quality control or improvements. They might simply be waiting for components or maybe taking a caving trip. Anyways, I can wait, but I don't see the sense in trying to calm down other people if they want to get excited. These customers have already paid for this right and RA should get this feedback. These are hard lessons for a small company like RA, but things like this separate the amateurs from the pros.


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## Dead_Nuts (Oct 10, 2008)

Many of us who pre-ordered knew exactly what we were getting into. Having been early adopters of, or at least following the release of, the Twisty, we knew about the unexpected delays and Henry's need to build a high quality, highly reliable flashlight the first time around. I make jokes about the waiting, but they are just that - jokes.

I'm perfectly content to wait for the quality I've seen from Henry. I do feel the pain of those anxiously awaiting these lights, but this is very much like waiting for a custom light. All the R&D, prototyping, testing, sourcing and manufacturing times are longer with the first of anything. All the obstacles and problems have to be dealt with now. After this initial time period, the only thing to contend with is making the same thing over and over.

As far as comunication on this thread, sure, I would like to hear from Henry more. But it also occurs to me that every time he does post, several folks ask him new questions or make suggestions about features or programming that he then feels compelled to answer. Is that asking too much of him? I don't know, he sounds like a very busy guy.

Whatever the case, they won't be done until they are done.


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## Kid9P (Oct 10, 2008)

I got tired of waiting, got a refund on my 2 orders and just purchased a *SPY 007* :twothumbs

The RaClicky's, whenever released, will be a plenty. I will order one after
reading all the reviews.


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## brucec (Oct 10, 2008)

Dead_Nuts said:


> As far as comunication on this thread, sure, I would like to hear from Henry more. But it also occurs to me that every time he does post, several folks ask him new questions or make suggestions about features or programming that he then feels compelled to answer. Is that asking too much of him? I don't know, he sounds like a very busy guy.
> 
> Whatever the case, they won't be done until they are done.



Actually, I believe an update is more appropriate for the online distributers (Batterystation & UniqueTitanium) that have taken pre-orders. I wouldn't even assume that Henry has seen a dime yet from the pre-orders. This thread is what it is, but if I were Henry, I would ask the distributors to update the status on their websites.


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## karlthev (Oct 10, 2008)

I agree that I'd like more communication but, I also agree that the more time spent on here keeping us glued for smigits of info, the less time in resolving more important issues of manufacturing. Kid9P evidently got sick of waiting and got a refund---that's fine and his choice. I haven't and I'll continue to wait---as a matter of fact for a "prototype" *and* the Ra120cgt. 

Henry isn't an amateur in this field either having been with Arc and the development of the Arc4+, with his own HDS and the EDC and, most recently with Novatac so, he's really not a babe in the woods in this endeavor. Now, that being said, while I didn't sign on for the SureFire Titan, I'm almost sure that this project was delayed....wasn't it...before the actual product his the hands of the consumer? This with a rather large (largest?) firm as SureFire......



karl


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## Kid9P (Oct 10, 2008)

brucec said:


> Actually, I believe an update is more appropriate for the online distributers (Batterystation & UniqueTitanium) that have taken pre-orders. I wouldn't even assume that Henry has seen a dime yet from the pre-orders. This thread is what it is, but if I were Henry, I would ask the distributors to update the status on their websites.


 

Let's not forget about the people that paid Henry for a prototype and have yet to receive those as well


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## karlthev (Oct 10, 2008)

Hey, that's ME!!


Karl


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## brucec (Oct 10, 2008)

Kid9P said:


> Let's not forget about the people that paid Henry for a prototype and have yet to receive those as well



Yes, we New Yorkers aren't exactly known for having large reserves of patience... Just money, although that might be just as scarce by the end of this month too!


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## Zenster (Oct 10, 2008)

Dead_Nuts said:


> Many of us who pre-ordered knew exactly what we were getting into.


 
Yup. And if people ordered without having some knowledge beforehand how pre-ordering a brand new light works, then that's their problem.

I'm all paid up and waiting like some others and I do have some modicum of patience.
I knew the first (or second or third) deadline wouldn't be met, so I'm good so far, but I'm thinking that if we don't get some solid intel by the time Thanksgiving approaches, I might have to consider bailing out as well and consider the Clicky again at some later date.

Still, it's hard to bail when I'm in the first group of 10 from UniqTitan.
So I wait...

At this moment in time, what I would like to see is more communication letting us know *exactly* what's going on, on at least a weekly basis.


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## karlthev (Oct 10, 2008)

brucec said:


> Yes, we New Yorkers aren't exactly known for having large reserves of patience... Just money, although that might be just as scarce by the end of this month too!




Well, patience is the game I'll have to say and this from a well-heeled custom knife collector (me) who thinks "waits" of a few months being as long as a New York minute---no problemmo! If all I wanted was a McDonald's burger, I'd go to McDonalds. I'll wait for my steak dinner.



Karl


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## shomie911 (Oct 10, 2008)

karlthev said:


> Well, patience is the game I'll have to say and this from a well-heeled custom knife collector (me) who thinks "waits" of a few months being as long as a New York minute---no problemmo! *If all I wanted was a McDonald's burger, I'd go to McDonalds. I'll wait for my steak dinner.*
> 
> 
> 
> Karl



Nice analogy!

Your always going to be more satisfied with the "steak dinner" that you patiently waited for opposed to the "McDonald's burger" that you got on a whim.


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## HoopleHead (Oct 10, 2008)

mmmm steak. just had a lovely NY Strip at Lark's Creek the other day.


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## SnWnMe (Oct 10, 2008)

I had a ribeye from Black Angus last night. I forgot how good BA is for the price.

Been in contact with Kevin of BS. He is pretty much certain that the first run is sold out but he told me that if I get in the Clicky Queue, he won't charge my CC until BS ships the light. I like that arrangement. Now I just need some more info on the final, shipping version and some feedback from the early adopters.


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## Dead_Nuts (Oct 10, 2008)

You want to talk about waiting for a light to hit? How about how long many of us have been waiting for the mythical Surefire Optimus and Invictus? Now SF has developed a whole bunch of lights over the years and I don't see these even coming out the same YEAR as they were announced. Henry is punctual by comparison!


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## SnWnMe (Oct 10, 2008)

Dead_Nuts said:


> You want to talk about waiting for a light to hit? How about how long many of us have been waiting for the mythical Surefire Optimus and Invictus? Now SF has developed a whole bunch of lights over the years and I don't see these even coming out the same YEAR as they were announced. Henry is punctual by comparison!


 
And nobody seems to bash HDS for missing the release date yet everyone's on SF's case for missing theirs.


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## Enzo Morocioli (Oct 10, 2008)

SnWnMe said:


> And nobody seems to bash HDS for missing the release date yet everyone's on SF's case for missing theirs.



The bottom line though, is that bashing does absolutely nothing to help the producer produce the product. 

Let us rather show respect for everyone, despite our greater expectations of each other. We all want what is best for ourselves, and we must reserve that right for everyone else too.


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## paxxus (Oct 10, 2008)

Anyone who's been around for awhile, or anyone who's done their homework, knew this was gonna happen. No surprise. The reason many support HDS is that you can rest assured that there will no compromise, even if it means delaying and then delaying. Still, an update would be nice :candle:


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## lumenlover2 (Oct 10, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> Yes. Yes, let's all have a nice tall glass of keep cool with whistle.


 

:nana:


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## SaturnNyne (Oct 10, 2008)

Aw golly, this is gonna be a long one...



brucec said:


> Maybe I haven't been on this forum for so long, but it seems to me that there is an excessive, almost religious, faith put into some of the dealers here. Granted, I believe the clicky will be a nice flashlight, the fact of the matter is that they are way overdue. I have experience in business, and it would be very appropriate for RA to give some kind of comment at this time seeing as they have missed several timelines. Especially since they have already taken pre-orders and collected people's money. After all, RA is striving to be a mass producer and not a custom builder. Custom builders have the luxury of giving best effort and not guaranteeing specifications. But since RA is selling a mass produced product, people are buying (have already bought) the published specification as well as delivery timeline.


From a business standpoint, what you say is true. However, this isn't a "dealer" or manufacturer we're talking about here—it's not even Ra—it's Henry, our friend. It's not religion, it's loyalty to someone we think has earned it. Of course this feeling of closeness to him is a bad thing in business, but this isn't business for us, it's a hobby, we can be friendly to the people we give our money to. Also, Henry/Ra has not taken pre-orders or collected money; the dealers have. I think this was a poor idea on their part because, admittedly, HDS has missed their deadline every time. I'm taking part in it though, they've taken my money, had it for almost a couple months, and that's fine with me. Based on the past, when I heard "August 2008" I thought "Octoberish." Turns out if I'm right it will be just barely under the wire.

I think that's how it tends to be here. When it's a big company, we expect and demand certain things, but we cut some slack when we're dealing with a person, especially a person we like. And I've been there myself, on a much smaller scale; I've seen how reality and time will make a mockery of what seemed like a reasonable deadline and I empathize with that battle. That doesn't mean I don't think we should be getting regular updates on progress since we're enthusiastic supporters and, in many cases, already paying customers; but while it would be _nice_ to be kept better informed, it's not necessarily _owed_ to us, at least not by Ra. Aside from those who have ordered a prototype, we're not his paying Clicky customers, we're customers of BS and UT. I suppose it could be said that he owes them an explanation and they then owe that explanation to us, but I'm not going to blow a fuse over it, I've seen it before and am not caught unprepared.



brucec said:


> And given no explanation, there is no reason to expect that RA is using this extra time on quality control or improvements. They might simply be waiting for components or maybe taking a caving trip.


They're not frequent, but we've gotten a few updates. Yes, they've been waiting for delayed parts to arrive. After that they have to assemble the parts. After that there will be a bit of testing/inspection/QC and possibly some minor issues to clear up. That's how this goes. It would be better if Henry told us this himself, but it's not hard to imagine what's going on and why it might be taking a while.



brucec said:


> Anyways, I can wait, but I don't see the sense in trying to calm down other people if they want to get excited. These customers have already paid for this right and RA should get this feedback. These are hard lessons for a small company like RA, but things like this separate the amateurs from the pros.


There is sense in trying to calm people down because those of us who have been around here long enough to see this same scenario play out over and over have come to realize what a disgusting glimpse of human nature they can become. This thread is mostly fine so far; a few people are getting excited, some maybe a little heated, but no one has lost it. But I read every page of the Arc development threads and watched that public relations disaster unfold; it left me questioning the mentality of the hobby I'm in and wondering what could be done to better keep it on a positive and enjoyable track. Well I don't know what can be done, certain people will be a certain way and it can get out of hand, I can't stop that and probably no one really can. But if I wake up and see the beginnings of that mentality approaching the yellow zone and I feel like spouting a bit of positive calming and priority examination, I'm going to do it.

As I already said, the paying customers may deserve an explanation, but it's not Ra that owes it, unless they want an explanation of why the dealers weren't told to not start pre-orders before a solid date is truly _known_ this time. That kind of decision just sets people up for disappointment and regret, creating a negative impact on the enjoyment of the hobby. I wish our supporting dealers well, they're good people too and they deserve some loyalty and support, but they're a big part of this "give us what you owe us" situation that Henry must now face, though he's not the direct cause of it. I do believe it would be appropriate for them to rethink things and learn a lesson from this that they should have learned in the past.




Dead_Nuts said:


> As far as comunication on this thread, sure, I would like to hear from Henry more. But it also occurs to me that every time he does post, several folks ask him new questions or make suggestions about features or programming that he then feels compelled to answer. Is that asking too much of him? I don't know, he sounds like a very busy guy.


That's a good point. Henry doesn't have a dedicated hired goon to watch the forum and deal with us, he does it himself. Every time he gives us an update, he has to come here, read through everything posted in every HDS thread he's watching, and compose a reply for each thread that covers everything that needs to be addressed. And then we respond to his responses with new questions. That's why I try to follow a one response rule with him; I ask a question as clearly as I can, wait for a response, and if it's not as complete as I'd like I usually just thank him for his time and move on. So how long does all that take him? I don't know, but it's similar to what I do here and it can take some time, and I'm not hard at work on bringing a new light to market. I'd like to hear more from him, but I don't really expect it.




brucec said:


> Actually, I believe an update is more appropriate for the online distributers (Batterystation & UniqueTitanium) that have taken pre-orders. I wouldn't even assume that Henry has seen a dime yet from the pre-orders. This thread is what it is, but if I were Henry, I would ask the distributors to update the status on their websites.


Ah good, you realize that too. I'm just responding as I go along. Aside from Unique Titanium, who has taken a limited number of payments up front, no one has seen much money out of these yet. We're not buying direct from Henry (again, aside from the protos) and Battery Station takes payment primarily by cc, so their pre-orders haven't been charged yet. So on the one hand, UT is the only one really in a position of owing something since they were the first to start pre-orders (perhaps forcing BS's hand) and the only one to accept payment. On the other hand, UT is a small business run by a member, he probably needs those up front payments to fund the purchase of the lights. To compete with a bigger dealer, he did what he had to do.




Zenster said:


> Yup. And if people ordered without having some knowledge beforehand how pre-ordering a brand new light works, then that's their problem.


I agree that a great deal of responsibility lies with us, the customer. I'm in on a pre-order, but I do not entirely support them. I knew what I was getting into and am fine with how things have gone, but a lot of people enter into them when they'd be better off waiting patiently.



Zenster said:


> At this moment in time, what I would like to see is more communication letting us know *exactly* what's going on, on at least a weekly basis.


I'd also like to see a brief weekly update, even if it's just to say the same thing over and over: "still waiting on ______." But hopefully we're close enough now that there isn't time for too many weekly updates.... fingers crossed.




shomie911 said:


> always going to be more satisfied with the "steak dinner" that you patiently waited for opposed to the "McDonald's burger" that you got on a whim.


McD's isn't worth bothering with, but I've never found a steak that could offer half the satisfaction of an animal style 3x3 from In N Out... mm.  But perhaps take my opinions with a grain of salt, I'm a non-practicing vegetarian.




SnWnMe said:


> And nobody seems to bash HDS for missing the release date yet everyone's on SF's case for missing theirs.


Very different situations. We're probably a significant market to HDS, but we're insignificant to SF and they treat us as such. If PK communicated with us a bit more and discussed the delays and development of the new lights, we'd probably be a lot more understanding of them too.




paxxus said:


> Anyone who's been around for awhile, or anyone who's done their homework, knew this was gonna happen. No surprise. The reason many support HDS is that you can rest assured that there will no compromise, even if it means delaying and then delaying. Still, an update would be nice :candle:


:thumbsup:




lumenlover2 said:


> :nana:


Back at ya! :nana:


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## dtsoll (Oct 12, 2008)

Hi folks,
I'm wondering how much difference there is between the wide and narrow beams on these? Any guesses or maybe you twisty owners know this first hand? I am leaning towards the wider but wonder just how narrow the narrow really is? Thanks!!! Doug


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## dtsoll (Oct 12, 2008)

Haha, see post 129, how in the heck did that happen? Doug


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## Dead_Nuts (Oct 13, 2008)

This whole deal of pre-ordering Henry's lights is not for the timid or uninitiated -- and perhaps BS and the others should have posted warnings. I was all in on the Twisty and was rewarded with one of the first ones out the door. I was not disappointed, so when the Clicky was available for pre-order, I put down the plastic. But for those who didn't know what to expect, I have to feel a little sorry for them. Fortunately, most people have only given their CC info; not actual money yet. For those who have, I'm sure any of the folks associated with this product would be happy to refund your money. If that's what you really want. 

I also have to agree with what has already been said; this is Henry, and if it turns out some of the delay is because he went on that caving trip he mentioned, I'm OK with that. I thoroughly enjoy this hobby, and the anticipation is definitely part of it. This is not just a Henry phenomenon.


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## Dead_Nuts (Oct 13, 2008)

There seems to be missing posts on this thread. I made one, it says I made one this morning, but it's not here. The last post I can see says Today 02:51 PM. Trouble is, it's only 11am today right now. Am I stuck in a bad Twilight Zone episode?


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## Dead_Nuts (Oct 13, 2008)

I can't see that last post either -- nor this one, I assume.


ETA: OK, now I know what happened. Yesterday's posts were incorrectly stamped as today's. So, since they were made later in the day (yesterday) than my posts (today), my posts are being inserted BEFORE the older posts. Got it?!?


----------



## ThatGuyBri (Oct 13, 2008)

Has anyone found a holster that will fit this light?


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## karlthev (Oct 13, 2008)

No, I haven't found the light (Ra Clickey) yet to get a holster made for it!:nana:


Karl


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## orcinus (Oct 13, 2008)

You mean you haven't printed out a cardboard cutout of the Clicky yet and started going around the shops trying to fit it into every holster you see?

Huh... You're a weird person. :nana:


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## karlthev (Oct 13, 2008)

In "shops"???? Commonplace droll "shops"????? Absolutely not!!! This one deserves an artofthehide I would have to say and I need the light before I can get the holster silly man!!!


Karl


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## orcinus (Oct 13, 2008)

Hey! I didn't write "going around the shops trying to _buy _a holster". I wrote "trying to fit the cutout in". To pass the time, yaknow...


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## Dead_Nuts (Oct 13, 2008)

Wow, now we're back to real time posting the last three posts to this thread were made by me this morning (131,132,133). The others after those were made yesterday. Weird, huh?


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## gottawearshades (Oct 13, 2008)

Personally, I was patient when my pre-order stretched and stretched. Now, I am moving into impatient. The deadline has been moved back once too many times. Now there is not even an estimate given. If your steak was five or six hours late, you might get impatient, and a big Mac might start to look good, and you might just leave the restaurant in a huff.

When I send a light to Milkyspit, I don't wait this long before I start getting seriously impatient. And Scott is just one guy who can catch the flu and stuff.


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## SnWnMe (Oct 13, 2008)

I know it's apples and oranges but delays and long waits are par for limited production and custom toys.


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## karlthev (Oct 13, 2008)

Hang in there, it'll be worth the wait, Henry's "stuff" always is. Soon enough we'll be give the go ahead to "start you engines gentlemen"!



Karl


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## gswitter (Oct 13, 2008)

I actually prefer to see ship dates slip a little. Unexpected problems and delays are a given during any product development cycle, and anytime I see a product actually ship on time I end up wondering what corners were cut to meet that date.

I EDC a NovaTac, and I'm expecting a Clicky to replace it. That said, I'm perfectly happy to see the release held up if it means a better product.


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## RainerWahnsinn (Oct 14, 2008)

I understand these exhortations to hold out. But why not a few additional information about the status of the things and a few pictures? We are nevertheless customers.


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## Dead_Nuts (Oct 14, 2008)

There's always the possibility that other aspects of Henry's life have added to the delay. It's only a light, and I can wait. Others, by all means have the right to cancel orders.


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## SnWnMe (Oct 14, 2008)

gswitter said:


> I actually prefer to see ship dates slip a little. Unexpected problems and delays are a given during any product development cycle, and anytime I see a product actually ship on time I end up wondering what corners were cut to meet that date.


 
Ain't it funny though how SF doesn't get a break for the UA2 and UB2 delays? 



RainerWahnsinn said:


> I understand these exhortations to hold out. But why not a few additional information about the status of the things and a few pictures? We are nevertheless customers.


 
Troot :thumbsup: You gotta hand a puppy a treat every now and then.


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## karlthev (Oct 14, 2008)

Maybe I'll get on the bandwaggon and say that SF is a tad bigger than Ra with proportionally larger resources and pockets to get their lights out on time. Now Ra isn't a custom builder nor even a limited production operation but, it sure isn't SF either. 



Karl


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## SnWnMe (Oct 14, 2008)

karlthev said:


> Maybe I'll get on the bandwaggon and say that SF is a tad bigger than Ra with proportionally larger resources and pockets to get their lights out on time. Now Ra isn't a custom builder nor even a limited production operation but, it sure isn't SF either.
> 
> 
> 
> Karl


 
The funny thing about organizations is that the bigger they are the more momentum they have and therefore more difficult to steer or change, resources notwithstanding.


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## Dead_Nuts (Oct 14, 2008)

The bigger difference between Surefire and Ra is the amount of control over the means of design, prototype and production. SF is a large company with lots of clout with it's suppliers. They also do much more of their own machining and component production. As such, they have a great deal more control over time to market than does Ra. Its almost silly to compare the two. I was just making a joke when I brought it up. Just trying to show that waiting is sometimes an integral part of this hobby.


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## tricker (Oct 14, 2008)

karlthev said:


> Maybe I'll get on the bandwaggon and say that SF is a tad bigger than Ra with proportionally larger resources and pockets to get their lights out on time. Now Ra isn't a custom builder nor even a limited production operation but, it sure isn't SF either.
> 
> 
> 
> Karl




from the amount of times the twisty has been sold out or on backorder from various sites, i would say limited production could describe them pretty well


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## SnWnMe (Oct 14, 2008)

Dead_Nuts said:


> The bigger difference between Surefire and Ra is the amount of control over the means of design, prototype and production. SF is a large company with lots of clout with it's suppliers. They also do much more of their own machining and component production. As such, they have a great deal more control over time to market than does Ra. Its almost silly to compare the two. I was just making a joke when I brought it up. Just trying to show that waiting is sometimes an integral part of this hobby.


 
Because of the lack of a slow bureacracy, smaller organizations make decisions faster and therefore respond quicker to problems than bigger ones do.


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## karlthev (Oct 14, 2008)

Jeez, and I got all bothered by it.....



Karl


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## orcinus (Oct 15, 2008)

UT has closed the pre-orders and isn't accepting any more under any circumstances (even though some people from the waiting list seem to be giving up). Battery Station doesn't seem to ship outside USA and bounces any/all e-mails sent to their address. AJC trading doesn't even have the Clicky on the website yet.

Are there any pre-order alternatives?


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## Zenster (Oct 15, 2008)

orcinus said:


> Are there any pre-order alternatives?


 
About all you can do is to contact someone who has been threatening to cancel their pre-order and offer to buy it directly from them when it finally is released. Of course, you want to be sure that said person is a long-time, honorable CPF member. 
If you offer to grease the palm of that person with a $20 bill over their cost, that might help.

That's all I got for ideas since the dealers have made their respective decisions.


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## SnWnMe (Oct 15, 2008)

Battery Station has a financial stake in the Clicky. Pretty sure that they are even more anxious for Henry's new baby to finally see the light of day.

I might tide myself over with a T-Hawk for now.


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## Dead_Nuts (Oct 15, 2008)

SnWnMe

I agree about the overhead of decision-making in larger corporations, but we're talking about a company that almost exclusively makes flashlights here. They are not GE that makes everything from toaster ovens to nuclear power generation plants. The powers that be have already decided what products are on deck and decided to show them off to their customers. They even produced a prototype (working or non-working) to show. After that, it's all up to the electrical and production engineers -- of which SF has many.

I'm not giving HDS a pass, I simply knew what I was getting into. Just like I knew, when I received my 2008 Surefire catalog, that those lights were a long way off. The difference is in how long the wait ends up being. We'll only know when we get them, but I'm pretty sure I'll see my Clicky before the Invictus that I pre-ordered months ago.

ETA: Yeah, I've been eying the Tomahawk as well. I'd like a little more light light for my LBE than the Pentagon MOLLE Light gives me.


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## brucec (Oct 15, 2008)

The lack of status updates and even prototype units is getting a bit unusual even for specialty lights, no? I hope the financial meltdown hasn't affected the Clicky, or even worse if Henry had some kind of personal catastrophe... It might be paranoid, but hey, sometimes bad things happen to small businesses when the Dow drops 30% over 10 days...


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## SnWnMe (Oct 15, 2008)

Dead Nuts, I enjoy the discussion about organizational management. It opens my eyes and makes me realize that I wasted much money and time studying it. There is no wrong or right answer there is only what is sensible ATM 

Now, who wants to sell their slot in the Clicky Preorder?


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## Enzo Morocioli (Oct 15, 2008)

orcinus said:


> Are there any pre-order alternatives?



Sure.. If you're really into it, I'd be happy to get you a pre-order on BS and you can paypal me the money when they start shipping.. Then I can send it to you the best way, to maybe save you some cash on the international shipping/customs front...


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## orcinus (Oct 15, 2008)

Wow! Thanks for the offer!
PM sent


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## senna94 (Oct 15, 2008)

Henry's last post was on 9-29-2008 so hopefully he is busy working to get the clickies finished.


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## Haz (Oct 15, 2008)

senna94 said:


> Henry's last post was on 9-29-2008 so hopefully he is busy working to get the clickies finished.


 
I hope that is the case too


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## tricker (Oct 15, 2008)

senna94 said:


> Henry's last post was on 9-29-2008 so hopefully he is busy working to get the clickies finished.



if he isn't, i am sure the twistys have him busy enough.....it was all about waiting on parts anyways...not so much his fault


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## matrixshaman (Oct 15, 2008)

Wasn't Henry going on a big caving expedition? Maybe that's why no updates the last 2 weeks. Not sure if it was mentioned when but it was at Snowy River where you need a special invite to go.


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## sledhead (Oct 15, 2008)

I assumed he went caving also. Quite an invitation. I,m sure he needed a break from the Clicky project.:mecry:


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## SnWnMe (Oct 15, 2008)

What? You mean he doesn't EDC a parabolic dish, 15 miles of fiber cable and a satellite receiver kit so he can check CPF while he's caving???:naughty:


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## bullfrog (Oct 15, 2008)

sledhead said:


> I assumed he went caving also. Quite an invitation. I,m sure he needed a break from the Clicky project.:mecry:



Maybe he is giving the clicky a real world test in the caves before it gets his final blessing for release? :thinking: 

He's just making sure for all of us that it really does get you home :twothumbs:twothumbs:twothumbs


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## SnWnMe (Oct 16, 2008)

Well, I paid closer attention to the Clicky specs and saw that it is a bit longer and heavier than the Twisty. Hmmm... I was going to use it as a safety strobe clipped to my ballcap bill for running @ dawn, a role that my 120E is presently filling.

Then again, what does need have to do with anything?:wave:


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## Bronco (Oct 16, 2008)

SnWnMe said:


> Well, I paid closer attention to the Clicky specs and saw that it is a bit longer and heavier than the Twisty. Hmmm... I was going to use it as a safety strobe clipped to my ballcap bill for running @ dawn, a role that my 120E is presently filling.
> 
> Then again, what does need have to do with anything?:wave:



Just make sure you get a ball cap with a chin strap.


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## Dead_Nuts (Oct 16, 2008)

Not sure if henry went caving or not, but I just got an email from him yesterday, so he's not there now. Maybe that means something good -- maybe not.


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## karlthev (Oct 16, 2008)

I think it means you got an e-mail from him yesterday.


Karl


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## Dead_Nuts (Oct 16, 2008)

karlthev said:


> I think it means you got an e-mail from him yesterday.
> 
> 
> Karl



Can't argue with that.


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## gottawearshades (Oct 16, 2008)

You know, I started a thread about flashlights for "normal people," and some people didn't know what I meant by the term.

It's like this: 
(1) months ago, I paid $280 for a flashlight; 

(2) I have no idea when I will see this flashlight, and I have not called my solicitor, but rather I am still just excited about when I might see this flashlight, which will essentially just light up when I push the button; and 

(3) some of us are taking time out from our busy days to actively speculate about whether a man is lost in a cave. (I'm worried about him, too, btw. I hope he took a good flashlight down there with him.) 

No, we are not normal.


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## karlthev (Oct 16, 2008)

Thanks for the confirmation of our compromised normality--I was beginning to feel somewhat unstable......


Karl


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## Dead_Nuts (Oct 16, 2008)




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## Robertesq1 (Oct 19, 2008)

Well I couldn't stand it any longer and I pre-ordered a clicky at BS hope we get some news soon...


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## ChocolateLab33 (Oct 20, 2008)

Ya I hope I have this light before my birthday........


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## RainerWahnsinn (Oct 20, 2008)

I am sure, that become true....


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## PeterK (Oct 21, 2008)

Hi,

I'm not sure if I have really read ALL posts in the different clicky threads but is it mentioned what exactly "wider" and "narrower" means?
Is it measurable (for example in degrees) for the hot spot and the sidespill?
And how does it compare to other flashlights like Novatac or Nitecore?
Will it be adjustable by changing the reflector or do I have to decide upfront?

Thanks,
Peter


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## yotom (Oct 21, 2008)

One good thing about birthdays-you have one every year


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## Enzo Morocioli (Oct 21, 2008)

PeterK said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm not sure if I have really read ALL posts in the different clicky threads but is it mentioned what exactly "wider" and "narrower" means?
> Is it measurable (for example in degrees) for the hot spot and the sidespill?
> ...



I found two posts that may interest you.

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2591692&postcount=204

and 

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2596868&postcount=208

Basically the "Wider" beam will resemble very roughly the same properties as a Novatac.. The "Narrow" beam will have a more defined hotspot and throw 20% farther.. Both beams have the same total exit degree (spill), since that is determined by the depth of the reflector and the edge of the bezel which are equal on both versions. The difference is _only_ in the focus of the hotspot. (edit) I thought I should add that the difference in focus is because of the LED involved. Wide likely uses a SSC based LED, while the Narrow is likely to use OSRAM.

Go here for beamshots of the Twisty against a NT and modded HDS EDC. The Narrow Clicky will likely have exactly the same beam pattern as the Ra Twisty 85Tr and the Wider Clicky will likely have the same beam pattern as the 100Tw. 

There are no other reflector designs that can fit the Ra lights, as far as I'm aware.


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## PeterK (Oct 22, 2008)

@_Enzo Morocioli_
Brilliant!
This was exactly what I was looking for!
Thanks, Peter


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## HDS_Systems (Oct 22, 2008)

All,

I am safe and sound and had a good time on my trip. Snowy River was running so we could not explore it. So we worked on fixing the DSMH/Mud Turtle shaft used to get to Snowy River and took a trip out Hell Hole to the Helectite Hall dig. A pleasant trip overall.

A few announcements:

1) We are restructuring the product offerings to eliminate models that are not available in production quantities. The "plus" models are skimmed from the non-plus model production process - sort of like skimming cream from milk. If a light meets certain criteria during the calibration process, it gets recalibrated to be a "plus" model. The lack of availability of the "plus" models led to frustration for the customer, the dealer and us. Effective immediately, we are dropping the Ra-120-C, Ra-120-Cgt and the Ra-120-Cn models from our standard product offering.

2) Our competition uses the maximum power level for marketing their flashlights. So we have decided to do the same thing. The original Ra Clicky designations were chosen prior to the implementation of Burst output and used the 1 hour setting as the designated output power rating. Unfortunately, lots of people look only at the maximum output rating when comparing flashlights and neglect the finer details. The specs have not changed - just the marketing designation.

3) We have started assembling production units. We expect to begin shipping by the end of the month.

Henry.


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## Nekolf (Oct 22, 2008)

Henry,
Thank you for update:thumbsup:


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## NoFair (Oct 22, 2008)

Thanks for the update Henry. 

Still EDC my old HDS:twothumbs

Sverre


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## Enzo Morocioli (Oct 22, 2008)

Henry, just for clarification, the 170 lumen burst output still exists?

Edit: aw... 
Reality sets in.


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## ivanchek (Oct 22, 2008)

Enzo Morocioli said:


> Henry, just for clarification, the 170 lumen burst output still exists?


 
doesn't look like it. if you look at the ra clicky site, the only models available are the 140c, 140cn and 140cgt; these are just the 100 model lights from before re-named to show their maximum lumens.


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## SaturnNyne (Oct 22, 2008)

Thanks for the update, Henry... though it bears bad news.


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## paxxus (Oct 22, 2008)

Sounds like nothing really has changed, except that the previously labeled "100" lights are now called "140" and the previously labled "120" lights are now called "plus"... Am I misunderstanding anything here...?


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## SaturnNyne (Oct 22, 2008)

paxxus said:


> Sounds like nothing really has changed, except that the previously labeled "100" lights are now called "140" and the previously labled "120" lights are now called "plus"... Am I misunderstanding anything here...?


I'm afraid you are misunderstanding; plus is nothing more than a word he chose to describe the premium, higher output versions, which have been discontinued. He used the same term in the Twisty thread to describe the higher output models which, he explicitly stated, will no longer be offered.


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## karlthev (Oct 22, 2008)

Hmmm....does this change affect previously ordered and pre-paid models....? Such as the 120cgt---no longer available...?



Karl


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## dixemon (Oct 22, 2008)

Can we expect to see a price change? No burst? thats kind of disapointing.

Edit: just read the HDS site, looks like there will be a price change.

http://ralights.com/index.php?id=Clicky


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## SaturnNyne (Oct 22, 2008)

dixemon said:


> No burst? thats kind of disapointing.


Where are you getting that from?


HDS_Systems said:


> The specs have not changed - just the marketing designation.


The burst is not changed in any way, the higher output models have just been axed and the lower models renamed to reflect their burst output instead of maintainable output.




dixemon said:


> Edit: just read the HDS site, looks like there will be a price change.


Where? I see 180 and 230, exactly the same as they've always been. The only price change is that the dropped products' prices have been reduced from $230/280 to $nonexistent.


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## orcinus (Oct 22, 2008)

dixemon said:


> Can we expect to see a price change? No burst? thats kind of disapointing.



Re-read Henry's post. 
There is still a burst. The burst is 140 lumens as before. High is 100 lumens as before. The names have been changed to 140-Cx. The ex 120 lumen (170 lumen burst) model has been dropped... :mecry:


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## bullfrog (Oct 22, 2008)

All the updated info is up and outlined in the chart on the HDS Clicky website:

http://ralights.com/?id=Clicky


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## dixemon (Oct 22, 2008)

Perhaps I should have clarified in my edited post above that I see there will be a burst mode. Also, since the models that some of us have had on pre-order will no longer be available i.e. 140cgt, we can expect a price change to get into the production level lights.


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## orcinus (Oct 22, 2008)

dixemon said:


> Also, since the models that some of us have had on pre-order will no longer be available i.e. 140cgt, we can expect a price change to get into the production level lights.



No one said 140-Cgt is no longer available. All the ex 100's (renamed into 140's) are available. 
It's only the ex 120's that aren't (in none of the flavours).

So there is no "price change" and no reason for one. Prices for the available 140-C's are the same as before, while 170 lumen models have been dropped.


----------



## Kid9P (Oct 22, 2008)

Wow, looks like poor Russtang is going to be busy with
refunds or partial refunds :thumbsdow

Considering the lineup change, I highly doubt Henry's updated release date of Oct 2008 is realistic. 

Glad I spent my money on a Spy 007. :kiss:


----------



## russtang (Oct 22, 2008)

We have made an update on the sign-up thread at cpf marketplace.

We will update the website this evening.


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## lumenlover2 (Oct 22, 2008)

HDS_Systems said:


> All,
> 
> I am safe and sound and had a good time on my trip. Snowy River was running so we could not explore it. So we worked on fixing the DSMH/Mud Turtle shaft used to get to Snowy River and took a trip out Hell Hole to the Helectite Hall dig. A pleasant trip overall.
> 
> ...


 

Well first of all thank you for updating your loyal customers here plenty recently ! lol

And thank`s for the info that your holiday was all well ...

You told us about a clicky !! 120 !! about more then a year ago , until they were announced a LOOOOONG time ago , finally preorders for them available quite a while back. 

Now, after weeks of silence and everyone waiting patiently they get dropped in a heartbreak and instead of an excuse from you we get a holiday update... nice.

That`s it ! 

And even if mods here ban me for this angry post i will never ever attempt to buy a light from you again no matter how good it is made or how good it is engineered.

You can`t treat customers like that 

And finally ; 

 saying your light outputs 140 lumens when it`s only for laughing 10 seconds and excusing this with saying other manufacturers do the same must be a joke !!!! Did you hit your head in one of your caves ??? 

NO SIR !


----------



## LLCoolBeans (Oct 22, 2008)

But I paid for a 120-Cn in advance, so you are saying I'm not going to get one?

Does that mean I have to Re-preorder from Battery Station?

This rots! So in order to simplify the product line for stupid people, HDS's fanatical customers get the shaft? Aren't we the ones buying most of the lights? Aren't we the ones advertising for HDS via word of mouth? Wrong people to step on, in my opinion.

So basically, those of us who have put their money down and waited patiently for months and months, are now being punished.

Boo hiss.:thumbsdow


----------



## HoopleHead (Oct 22, 2008)

:twothumbs

still all good by me. too many people are sucked into the hype. not to mention spoiled by having such a close relationship directly with the manufaturer. why not wait til everythings all said and done and ready to ship? manage your own expectations  good things come to those who wait.

hopefully people will drop out and itll make it easier for others to get their lights :naughty:

Ra-140-Cn for me, and probably a 140-C at some point as well!

stay true to your own goals and vision Henry!


----------



## m16a (Oct 22, 2008)

HoopleHead said:


> :twothumbs
> 
> still all good by me. too many people are sucked into the hype. not to mention spoiled by having such a close relationship directly with the manufaturer. why not wait til everythings all said and done and ready to ship? manage your own expectations  good things come to those who wait.
> 
> ...



I have to agree with what hoople has said here. You guys are crazy to think that just because you've lost a 30 lumen output. SO WHAT!!! You are still going to be getting an amazing light, perhaps one of the best ever! You have lost sight of that fact! Stop spazzing and think rationally for a second.. A 100 lumen light will be quite similar in output to a 120 lumen you won't see very much difference at all! Also, with today's technology, it will be much easier for him to guarentee 100 lumens for one hour, and if he was finding bins that would produce 120 lumens for one hour, you will most likely be finding bins that will perform beyond the specs, he has a track record of that, and I fully expect to see that again. Now, I'm as tired of waiting as all of you, but if me, a supposed "impatient" teenager has been able to wait for my *FIRST* HDS light *EVER*, I think you who have his good old ultimate line and others should be able to wait! So you should all just cool off, begin to rationalize with your head, and realize that you are getting a thoroughly tested, and excellent light, even without 170 lumens. Kudos to Henry for working so hard to get this amazing light tested and produced, I for one am looking forward to receiving my 140C Clicky with its 140 lumen burst.

KEEP UP THE EXCELLENT WORK HENRY, WE ARE LOOKING FORWARD TO THE LIGHT:twothumbs


M16a(Jason), converted HDS fan


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## LLCoolBeans (Oct 22, 2008)

m16a said:


> I have to agree with what hoople has said here. You guys are crazy to think that just because you've lost a 30 lumen output. SO WHAT!!! You are still going to be getting an amazing light, perhaps one of the best ever! You have lost sight of that fact! Stop spazzing and think rationally for a second.. A 100 lumen light will be quite similar in output to a 120 lumen you won't see very much difference at all! Also, with today's technology, it will be much easier for him to guarentee 100 lumens for one hour, and if he was finding bins that would produce 120 lumens for one hour, you will most likely be finding bins that will perform beyond the specs, he has a track record of that, and I fully expect to see that again. Now, I'm as tired of waiting as all of you, but if me, a supposed "impatient" teenager has been able to wait for my FIRST HDS light EVER, I think you who have his good old ultimate line and others should be able to wait! So you should all just cool off, begin to rationalize with your head, and realize that you are getting a thoroughly tested, and excellent light, even without 170 lumens. Kudos to Henry for working so hard to get this amazing light tested and produced, I for one am looking forward to receiving my 100C clicky with its 140 lumen burst.
> 
> KEEP UP THE EXCELLENT WORK HENRY, WE ARE LOOKING FORWARD TO THE LIGHT:twothumbs
> 
> ...




I see your point, and I'm not about to cancel my pre-order. But still, this is disappointing news. I'm not angry like lumenlover2, but I have to say that I am disappointed.

In my opinion if Henry wants to discontinue the 120 series, that's his prerogative, but it would be nice if he released a few limited production models to satisfy those of us who have been waiting patiently for them.


----------



## MikeG1P315 (Oct 22, 2008)

I have not ordered one of these yet, I will wait until they're finalized, shipping and some reviews are out there.

Henry's designs are by far my favorite. I've owned two Basic 42s (one was gifted to a friend when I moved, and one was lost :mecry. I even like the Novatacs, even as the slightly dim-witted cousins that they are. So, I'll probably get a Clicky sooner or later.

BUT... to share my opinion, I got the vibe from Henry's post about dropping the 170s (120s) that they're being dropped because the manufacturing process cannot reliably produce a high enough volume to promise delivery. I understand the Twisty 120 and Clicky 120 (170) were being offered as limited run specials, when the specs met the requirements, but I respect Henry now for dropping a product he cannot promise to create in volume.

Just my .02 cents. And, for MY uses, the difference between 140 lumens burst and 170 lumens burst is negligible, if not completely worthless. Please, no disrespect to those who DO appreciate the difference of 30 lumens, but for the way I use my lights, I wouldn't notice the lack.


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## Zenster (Oct 22, 2008)

LLCoolBeans said:


> I see your point, and I'm not about to cancel my pre-order. But still, this is disappointing news. I'm not angry like lumenlover2, but I have to say that I am disappointed.
> 
> In my opinion if Henry wants to discontinue the 120 series, that's his prerogative, but it would be nice if he released a few limited production models to satisfy those of us who have been waiting patiently for them.


 
I think you and I are on the same page on this one.

I sent $280 to get "the best of the best" in the new RA Clicky. I don't know how many pre-orders RA had through their dealers, but it doesn't appear to be maybe more than 20 to 30 at most (of this "Plus" model).

I understand and agree that the company has a right to change their product line, but we were promised a product that we already paid for.
As rare as it is to come across the "Plus" components, it seems to me that they would honor the already-paid-for lights that were supposed to be the "Plus" models.
Once they take care of we-who-have-ordered-and-paid-up-front, then they wouldn't have to worry about finding any more "Plus's".

My .02


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## Dead_Nuts (Oct 22, 2008)

LLCoolBeans said:


> In my opinion if Henry wants to discontinue the 120 series, that's his prerogative, but it would be nice if he released a few limited production models to satisfy those of us who have been waiting patiently for them.



That is my opinion as well. If there are only so many that meet the higher standard of the now defunct 120-Cxx, make them and give them to the first ones who pre-ordered. Pick a pre-order date and say that orders made after that will not be getting 120's (170's?). At least some of Henry's true believers would get these lights.

I am probably not high enough on the list for this to affect me, but I think it would be a good-will jesture, nontheless.


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## ChocolateLab33 (Oct 22, 2008)

*I'm not about to cancel either. It's all good. Looking forward to this light. *

*Now Henry, let's have it before my birthday, ok? LOL. *


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## Enzo Morocioli (Oct 22, 2008)

LLCoolBeans said:


> it would be nice if he released a few limited production models to satisfy those of us who have been waiting patiently for them.



Probably might happen, in like 6 months from now.

I'd be willing to wait longer, and pay more. 

It's not just an insignificant numbers game to me, folks! Having a 170 lumen burst and setting the other three channels to lower more general task levels makes it a very useful jump -- Burst -- of output... 

First, the low red availability on the Clicky was not possible... Ok, I can live with that... Now the highest burst is taken away... That makes it tougher to swallow...The Clicky is still likely to be the best programable torch on the market, but I think the discontinuation of the 120lm versions takes the luster off a bit.

I understand that Henry is doing what he must do to make it easier on himself and his dealers, and to get a product to us in a timely fashion. But it must also be understood that we should not quell the underlying frustration of pre-ordering a product that isn't going to be offered. It seems as though there could have been a better way to offer everyone what they wanted by perhaps releasing the 100's first and having us 120 courters told to wait a month or two more 'till stock of the "plus" emitters was reasonably adequate.

The majority of us wanted the 120 lumen for 1 hour version.. Such that our demand outstripped Henry's ability to produce enough for us. If say the 120lm version cost $400 and were clearly advertised as extremely limited, I'd have a strong bet that we'd still see them offered, but many people balking at the price and being satisfied with the 100/140lm version. 

Ok.. that's enough steam.. Henry, I'm still with you, and I sincerely hope you find the means to produce 170lm automatic burst output for us in the near future.. Thank you for your hard work, and for the tolerance you must exercise in your field of buisness. We are a strange breed of users here and demand a lot; sometimes to an unpractial, bloated and egocentric degree. I hope you embrace our praises and critisisms equally, and will continue to work hard for us in your shop. We appreciate your dedication and effort, despite the woes.


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## luxlover (Oct 22, 2008)

Hello everybody, especially those HDS/Ra loyalists who respect Henry and all the lights he has provided for us over the years.....

Those of you who remember me, have known me to be one of Henry's strongest supporters on CPF in the HDS EDC days. I have been watching the Clicky threads with great enthusiasm, calculating the best time to come back.....with a vengeance.....and greater enthusiasm than before. I have been away from all HDS threads for over two years, and I will be returning to any and all threads dealing with Henry's lights and accessories, starting with this post!

Poster #203 is a teen who has seen what HDS lights can do, face to face. So has his father, to whom I had to sell the idea that the Clicky would be his son's "one light does it all" light. It wasn't easy, because the $230 pricetag for the now defunct 120C model was a huge amount for a student with a part time job. After seeing my demo in person, the father was convinced, and the son saved his money to amass the $230, waiting like all of us. He is patient about getting the light. So if a teen can do this, so can all of us adults.

Regarding Henry's latest "surprise".....
All that we are losing in the process is 30lm of burst light and 20lm of high level light. Neither difference in value is earthshattering to the brain, all the more reason to not be so disappointed in today's news. To those who are worried about the money they paid in advance, russtang will make adjustments to the finances, issue a refund, and/or drop you from a list at your request. This post is to convince you NOT to deprive yourself of a Clicky, when it's release is so close that we can almost smell it!

When Henry started to offer the 120lm models in addition to the 100lm models, he must have been sure that his quantity of overachieving emitters would be plentiful, allowing him to rate a 120lm light for one hour _minimum_, as well as the 100lm models for one hour _minimum_. Has anybody considered the fact that _minimum _means that the light will always last an hour, and most probably longer? In fact, it will be much easier for Henry to achieve 100lm for one hour for most of his emitter supply, than 120lm for one hour. In this day and age of increasing emitter efficiencies, we are still not at the point where the average bin of emitters in the category chosen by Henry can perform at 120lm for an hour without serious heatsinking to prevent the loss of lumens in the form of heat, meaning a much larger light. So if you want a light that causes a minimum of lumen loss, you have to adjust the output with the light's physical size. Henry has always maintained a balance of output, heat generation/temperature control and runtime. He is famous for this balance.

Those of you who are implying that Henry has somehow deceived us by his latest action and the series of delays in their release, should consider that he is a one man operation, a sole proprietor who has to deal with outside vendors who are not exactly reliable in their parts delivery or process completion promises. He doesn't have the luxury of working on some facet of the Clicky project, while some underling chases down the others upon whom he depends to get everything ready for assembly, calibration, quality control and finally shipping.

Regarding those who think that his new rating system is unscrupulous and misleading, I refer you to Henry's clear description of the Clicky here.... http://ralights.com/?id=Home
*The amazing new Ra ClickyTM flashlight -
140 lumens burst output and 100 lumens for 1 hour on one battery 
*Can anybody find a more concise way of describing a light's true output capabilities? This exonerates him of any guilt of being deceptive, by those who think he should rate the light purely as a 100lm light for one hour!!! 

There is no reason for anybody to be angry about this morning's surprises. Nobody is being hurt by Henry's decision, and those who have waited for months in the past for one of Henry's lights should realize that they are flawless despite the long wait. Henry is not only an engineer, he is an artiste. Consider his full lifetime warranty when rejecting Clicky ownership. He backs his products fully. Consider his willingness to provide continued lifetime support for his HDS EDC lights, when he was not legally bound to do so! His decision was based on his morality. This shows that he is a stand-up guy.

Finally, Henry did not preview this post, and I am not in cahoots with him on any level regarding it's writing. I am just like anybody else here, with no preferential treatment of any kind afforded me. I have waited a long time to write this post, and rather than see Henry "massacred" all day long, I wanted all of you who are not familiar with his hardships to know that like all the other HDS/Ra lights I own, this couldn't possibly be any less wonderful. Stay with your initial gut feeling to own a Clicky, and continue to wait the few more weeks before they will be in your hands. We old timers will surely wait! Those of you who have never owned any of his lights, will be glad that they waited. There is no light like it in the world. 

Jeff


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## luxlover (Oct 22, 2008)

ChocolateLab33 said:


> *I'm not about to cancel either. It's all good. Looking forward to this light. *
> 
> *Now Henry, let's have it before my birthday, ok? LOL. *


Henry,
Psst psst, it's Dec. 2nd. Let this be our little secret! oo:

Jeff


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## Dead_Nuts (Oct 22, 2008)

From Battery Station:

*NOTE regarding previous pre-orders. If you have not ordered yet, ignore this.*
Models 100C and 120C become 140C at $179.00
Models 100CGT and 120CGT become 140CGT at $229.00
Models 100CN and 120CN become 140CN at $179.00
Nobody will see a price increase on their advance order. It will be the same or lower.


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## thermal guy (Oct 22, 2008)

luxlover said:


> Hello everybody, especially those HDS/Ra loyalists who respect Henry and all the lights he has provided for us over the years.....
> 
> Those of you who remember me, have known me to be one of Henry's strongest supporters on CPF in the HDS EDC days. I have been watching the Clicky threads with great enthusiasm, calculating the best time to come back.....with a vengeance.....and greater enthusiasm than before. I have been away from all HDS threads for over two years, and I will be returning to any and all threads dealing with Henry's lights and accessories, starting with this post!
> 
> ...



I fully agree with you Jeff.Giving up 20LM on the high end and 30LM on the burst is not that big a deal. Those that have an understanding of how your eye perceives light know that 20-30LM will be hardly visible,and many will not see any deference at all.I remember when fenix first came out with there L2D.People were complaining that there was no visible difference between the high of 80 and turbo of 135.And lets not forget this is Henry we are talking about here.He does what he does because he understands lights and knows whats best.He is not a huge manufacture that just puts out lights and lies to get us to buy lights.Bottom line you want his lights and access to the man who built them buy it.If not don't but,if you don't buy one now i bet you will at some time.Oh and welcome back JEFF! Make sure you stay with us this time. Your the reason i got into these fantastic lights in the first place.Something i remind my G/F of every time i buy a new one.:naughty:


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## luxlover (Oct 22, 2008)

thermal guy said:


> I fully agree with you Jeff.Giving up 20LM on the high end and 30LM on the burst is not that big a deal. Those that have an understanding of how your eye perceives light know that 20-30LM will be hardly visible,and many will not see any deference at all.I remember when fenix first came out with there L2D.People were complaining that there was no visible difference between the high of 80 and turbo of 135.And lets not forget this is Henry we are talking about here.He does what he does because he understands lights and knows whats best.He is not a huge manufacture that just puts out lights and lies to get us to buy lights.Bottom line you want his lights and access to the man who built them buy it.If not don't but,if you don't buy one now i bet you will at some time.Oh and welcome back JEFF! Make sure you stay with us this time. Your the reason i got into these fantastic lights in the first place.Something i remind my G/F of every time i buy a new one.:naughty:


Thank you, Sir. I'm not going anywhere. A swat team would be needed to remove me from the premises. I will be posting with great ferocity!

Now I know why I have been getting threatening calls, emails and pms from a woman I never met!  You told her about me! Time to walk around Brooklyn with a kevlar vest.

Jeff


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## m16a (Oct 22, 2008)

luxlover said:


> Thank you, Sir. I'm not going anywhere. A swat team would be needed to remove me from the premises. I will be posting with great ferocity!
> 
> Now I know why I have been getting threatening calls, emails and pms from a woman I never met!  You told her about me! Time to walk around Brooklyn with a kevlar vest.
> 
> Jeff



Wait you don't walk around with kevlar already?? 


I say forget the kevlar, buy a couple hundred clickies and paste them to yourself. You will become effectively bulletproof:twothumbs


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## luxlover (Oct 22, 2008)

m16a said:


> Wait you don't walk around with kevlar already??
> 
> I say forget the kevlar, buy a couple hundred clickies and paste them to yourself. You will become effectively bulletproof:twothumbs


Only honest crooks live in my 'hood!


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## thermal guy (Oct 22, 2008)

luxlover said:


> Thank you, Sir. I'm not going anywhere. A swat team would be needed to remove me from the premises. I will be posting with great ferocity!
> 
> Now I know why I have been getting threatening calls, emails and pms from a woman I never met!  You told her about me! Time to walk around Brooklyn with a kevlar vest.
> 
> Jeff




Yes I'm afraid i did, had to. She threaten to stop feeding me.Also she held one of my u60 hostage till i told her,when that happened i sang like a bird.


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## zenas (Oct 22, 2008)

I think this is my first post for a long time ago, but I think it's time to write it right now.

I'm still a student and started to save my money for this (hopefully) wonderfull light when the first announcement has been made. I've never seen a HDS or RA light in reality, but I believe (from what I've read) that this is going be an awesome light - and *THAT* is the reason that keeps me waiting.

It's just nice to know that one day my perfect EDC light will light my way. Just the same stuff: My perfect EDC knife is going to be here in several *months*!
And some of you are complaining about a few weeks


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## paxxus (Oct 22, 2008)

HDS_Systems said:


> Our competition uses the maximum power level for marketing their flashlights. So we have decided to do the same thing.


Fair enough. But I bet most of the competition can run for more then 10 sec at maximum power, so the comparison isn't entirely fair. Would you reconsider the weird 10 sec timer and instead let the thermal protection determine when to step down?

Seeing how the "plus" lights are always immediately on back-order at the dealers, I can't say I don't understand this decision - it must have been a nightmare with the dealers. Still, I feel that the few pre-orders which have already been made for the "plus" lights should be honored - but I am of course biased :naughty:


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## luxlover (Oct 22, 2008)

thermal guy said:


> Yes I'm afraid i did, had to. She threaten to stop feeding me.Also she held one of my u60 hostage till i told her,when that happened i sang like a bird.


The inclusion of your beloved U60 into the situation, makes all the difference to me. I am glad you came out OK, are being fed, and still have the light. It must have been a traumatic experience for the U60?

Jeff
On The Run


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## LLCoolBeans (Oct 22, 2008)

Enzo Morocioli said:


> The majority of us wanted the 120 lumen for 1 hour version.. Such that our demand outstripped Henry's ability to produce enough for us.



You make an excellent point here Enzo. If that is the case, and there just were not enough extra high efficiency emitters available to go around, then I completely understand Henry's decision.

However, from Henry's post, he made it seem like the reason was not the availability of higher than normal efficiency emitters, it was to simplify the product line. Which I find to be kind of lame. I liked having the option of paying a bit more to have something above average. No one else does that for their customers and I liked that system.

Oh, well. Whatever. At least it will save me a few bucks.


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## luxlover (Oct 22, 2008)

LLCoolBeans said:


> You make an excellent point here Enzo. If that is the case, and there just were not enough extra high efficiency emitters available to go around, then I completely understand Henry's decision.
> 
> However, from Henry's post, he made it seem like the reason was not the availability of higher than normal efficiency emitters, it was to simplify the product line. Which I find to be kind of lame. I liked having the option of paying a bit more to have something above average. No one else does that for their customers and I liked that system.
> 
> Oh, well. Whatever. At least it will save me a few bucks.


Do you mean saving a few bucks from $230 to $180? If so, are you still with us, pal?


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## LLCoolBeans (Oct 22, 2008)

luxlover said:


> Do you mean saving a few bucks from $230 to $180? If so, are you still with us, pal?



Not sure I understand your post. Yea, from $230 to $180 that's $50 less. Is that not a significant price difference?


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## luxlover (Oct 22, 2008)

LLCoolBeans said:


> Not sure I understand your post. Yea, from $230 to $180 that's $50 less. Is that not a significant price difference?


 Yes it is, when you are considering only 20lm difference on high between the 120C/120Cn and the 100C/100Cn. Does the savings soften you and make you want a Clicky?


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## LLCoolBeans (Oct 22, 2008)

luxlover said:


> Yes it is, when you are considering only 20lm difference on high between the 120C/120Cn and the 100C/100Cn. Does the savings soften you and make you want a Clicky?



What? I think we have a misunderstanding here. I've wanted a Clicky since they were announced and I placed my pre-order for a 120-Cn if not on the first day they were available for pre-order, the first week for sure.

I'm saying that as disappointing as it is that the 120-Cn has been chopped from the product line, at least the clicky I will end up with will be $50 less expensive.

Ordering from the "plus" product line is just sort of an OCD thing for me, and probably for a lot of guys here. We realize that 20lm is negligable, but we still like to have the best of what is availible even if we have to pay a bit extra to get it. 

Also, collector/resale value on the "plus" models is higher as they are more rare.


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## paxxus (Oct 22, 2008)

luxlover, nice to have you back - you kind of disappeared when the HDS forum was terminated didn't you. I sense that you like HDS/Ra lights


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## tebore (Oct 22, 2008)

Interesting "Marketing" decision. 
Why not take it a step further and state the lumen output at the emitter like the "Competition" to get an even higher number. I'd like to think the people who buy the clicky aren't easily tricked by the numbers game.

I can't wait to see what reviews have to say when it gets in to hands of reviewers.


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## luxlover (Oct 22, 2008)

LLCoolBeans said:


> What? I think we have a misunderstanding here. I've wanted a Clicky since they were announced and I placed my pre-order for a 120-Cn if not on the first day they were available for pre-order, the first week for sure.
> 
> I'm saying that as disappointing as it is that the 120-Cn has been chopped from the product line, at least the clicky I will end up with will be $50 less expensive.
> 
> ...


You are the consummate flashaholic, while I am not. Everything you write is true. The $50 savings will still get you a great light. I am sure that from your first post earlier to now, you have accepted the reality and will embrace ownership of a 100C or 100Cn model for $180. You will forget about the defunct 120lm _whosewhatsit_ lights and use your light well. Just think that with the saved $50, you will be able to buy all or part of a 17670 accessory case, tailor made for the Clicky!! :twothumbs

May the force be with us all that the storks don't go on strike!

Jeff


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## dtsoll (Oct 22, 2008)

Haha, Hi jeff, great entrance!! I'm proud of you man!! Doug


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## Enzo Morocioli (Oct 22, 2008)

luxlover said:


> You will forget about the defunct 120lm _whosewhatsit_ lights and use your light well.



Never forget....

And Jeff.. Quit trolling. :nana:


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## thermal guy (Oct 22, 2008)

OK now that you brought up the tube,here is where i have a problem.There is a huge difference between a 17670 and a 18650.This is a big deal for a lot and i"m having a hard time with this.Henry has to make this right if not now then very shortly.


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## Kid9P (Oct 22, 2008)

zenas said:


> And some of you are complaining about a few weeks


 

Thanks for the laugh, my sides are still hurting. :laughing:


All joking aside, I'm very glad that the prices have lowered.
Maybe I can really afford 2 now.....:naughty:


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## luxlover (Oct 22, 2008)

paxxus said:


> luxlover, nice to have you back - you kind of disappeared when the HDS forum was terminated didn't you. I sense that you like HDS/Ra lights


Thank you.  Indeed I did disappear to other areas just about when the HDS forum was removed. That was one of the saddest days in flashlight history. :mecry: But today I couldn't hold back my emotions any longer for fear of exploding. The preliminary reaction to Henry's decision needed minor crowd control. It seems calm, now that the reality has set in. I wanted a 120C, but I will surely enjoy the 140C in all of its glory. I have plenty of small lights capable of 170lm, but none like a Henry light. To this day, my only EDC lights since my U60 was delivered to me on May 9, 2005, has been one or another of Henry's lights. I cheated a few times, but I always came back to the roost!!

The durability of Henry's Ra lights, as is evident in my 100Tw Twisty, far surpasses that of any other light he has produced. But due to the high twisting force needed to use it, I have come to the conclusion that I will always prefer his click switch lights due to their electronic method of activation.

 to you too!
 
Jeff


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## LLCoolBeans (Oct 22, 2008)

luxlover said:


> I am sure that from your first post earlier to now, you have accepted the reality and will embrace ownership of a 100C or 100Cn model for $180.



Yea, I got a little cranky this morning when I decided to check cpf to see if there were any updates from Henry and then finding out that my light had been discontinued before it even saw the light of day.

After a few cups of coffee and a good lunch, I think I've come to my senses.

Still, I liked the idea of the "plus" product line and I'm somewhat saddened to see it go.

Thank the lord, Henry is still offering a choice of emitters. If the narrow beam option had gotten the axe I would have really thrown a temper tantrum.:mecry:


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## karlthev (Oct 22, 2008)

I have many lights including several HDSs and a beta Novatac and a proto Ra ordered as well as a 120cgt (err....HAD ordered on that last...) I also understand the stress under which Henry has been operating and the business climate....I also understand the limited availability of the best of the best in terms of LEDS....this still will be great light nevertheless I am disappointed.........:sigh:


Karl


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## luxlover (Oct 22, 2008)

dtsoll said:


> Haha, Hi Jeff, great entrance!! I'm proud of you man!! Doug


Thank you Doug. I told you in a pm that I was going to come back and participate in all things HDS.

By the way, a birdy told me that you acquired an 85Tr Twisty a few days ago. So how is the honeymoon proceeding? The same birdy told me that you are a master in customizing it? Did my source give me accurate intelligence?

Are you in for a Clicky as a big brother to the Twisty? All HDS lights play nicely together and live in perfect harmony. You can never have too many!


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## luxlover (Oct 22, 2008)

Enzo Morocioli said:


> Never forget....
> 
> And Jeff.. Quit trolling. :nana:


Look at Enzo. His heart has been broken. Can a 100lm light manage to mend that broken heart?  Only time will tell.


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## dtsoll (Oct 22, 2008)

Yep, I love the 85Tr Jeff, and yes I have preordered a 100C to keep the twisty company. Good to have you posting over here again Jeff and thanks for the help my friend!!! Doug


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## luxlover (Oct 22, 2008)

Kid9P said:


> Thanks for the laugh, my sides are still hurting. :laughing:
> 
> 
> All joking aside, I'm very glad that the prices have lowered.
> Maybe I can really afford 2 now.....:naughty:


Ray,
You are the consummate flashaholic....."buy two!" Admirable quality!


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## luxlover (Oct 22, 2008)

dtsoll said:


> Yep, I love the 85Tr Jeff, and yes I have pre-ordered a 100C to keep the Twisty company. Good to have you posting over here again Jeff, and thanks for the help my friend!!! Doug


I want everybody to know that Doug got a temporary case of cold feet when he took his maiden voyage with the customization guide in hand. Before I could say boo, he had figured it out and sent me a pm stating "I don't need your lousy help anymore!" * I am kidding about this!!* But he was proud of himself for being independent. I am proud of him too.


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## luxlover (Oct 22, 2008)

LLCoolBeans said:


> Yea, I got a little cranky this morning when I decided to check CPF to see if there were any updates from Henry, and then finding out that my light had been discontinued before it even saw the light of day.
> 
> After a few cups of coffee and a good lunch, I think I've come to my senses.
> 
> ...


My _unprofessional _advice to you Sir is this.....In the future have your cups of coffee and your lunch *before* you check in on CPF. This place can ruin your entire day if you let it! 

Did I mention that I was also saddened by the change in roster? I hate to think of the mass hysteria that would have followed if Henry merely offered us 100C and 100Cgt lights. I am thinking along the lines of martial law, the national guard and a CPF curfew!


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## karlthev (Oct 22, 2008)

:shakehead


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## luxlover (Oct 22, 2008)

karlthev said:


> :shakehead


??? :shakehead ???


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## LLCoolBeans (Oct 22, 2008)

luxlover said:


> My _unprofessional _advice to you Sir is this.....In the future have your cups of coffee and your lunch *before* you check in on CPF. This place can ruin your entire day if you let it!



Agreed, hindsight is 20/20. 

I did get a little cranky, but my cranky post was pretty benign. Please don't confuse me with the guy who blew his top, screaming that he would never buy a light from Henry again and asking if Henry had hit his head on a rock.


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## orcinus (Oct 22, 2008)

How about we print a nice little set of shirts with a Clicky and text saying "120-C - Never forget!"


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## seery (Oct 22, 2008)

Serious quality issues with one of my (3) 120-T's, missed delivery/release dates, and now these changes. 

I'm glad to have cancelled/been refunded my #1 and #2 spots for the 120-C pre-buy months ago.

It's unfortunate all the extra time and work this causes for great dealers like UT and BS.

Hope all turns out well, I'm UNsubscribing to this thread.


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## luxlover (Oct 22, 2008)

LLCoolBeans said:


> Agreed, hindsight is 20/20.
> 
> I did get a little cranky, but my cranky post was pretty benign. Please don't confuse me with the guy who blew his top, screaming that he would never buy a light from Henry again and asking if Henry had hit his head on a rock.


I remember that guy. He has been quiet since then. I hope that he changes his mind and partakes! I would never confuse him with you.

But after him was a guy whose comments I committed to memory.....
 "But I paid for a 120-Cn in advance, so you are saying I'm not going to get one? This rots! So basically, those of us who have put their money down and waited patiently for months and months, are now being punished.

Boo hiss.:thumbsdow "

I heard that the men in the white coats took him away this morning. I am so glad that you are not like him, and I would never confuse you with him either. You are just too


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## luxlover (Oct 22, 2008)

orcinus said:


> How about we print a nice little set of shirts with a Clicky and text saying "120-C - Never forget!"


That one is good. How about yours in front and the following on the back?....."Have you hugged your Ra Clicky 140C today?" The thought of this warms your heart, doesn't it?


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## orcinus (Oct 22, 2008)

luxlover said:


> That one is good. How about yours in front and the following on the back?....."Have you hugged your Ra Clicky 140C today?" The thought of this warms your heart, doesn't it?



How about "Buy two 140-C's instead..." on the back


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## LLCoolBeans (Oct 22, 2008)

luxlover said:


> I remember that guy. He has been quiet since then. I hope that he changes his mind and partakes! I would never confuse him with you.
> 
> But after him was a guy whose comments I committed to memory.....
> "But I paid for a 120-Cn in advance, so you are saying I'm not going to get one? This rots! So basically, those of us who have put their money down and waited patiently for months and months, are now being punished.
> ...



Well, I apologize for that post, it was pretty cranky. I was pretty disappointed with the news. I still say boo, but maybe hiss was uncalled for. I guess I deserve your razzing.

Just for the record it was a lower cased hiss.


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## luxlover (Oct 22, 2008)

orcinus said:


> How about "Buy two 140-C's instead..." on the back


I can tell that you are a bone fide CPF veteran. Why not?


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## luxlover (Oct 22, 2008)

LLCoolBeans said:


> Well, I apologize for that post, it was pretty cranky. I was pretty disappointed with the news. I still say boo, but maybe hiss was uncalled for. I guess I deserve your razzing.
> 
> Just for the record it was a lower cased hiss.


You don't have to apologize for anything. You are here with us now, and dying for a 140Cn, with the rest of us. I knew that when I quoted your post, that you would get a kick out of it. I hope that I have been instrumental in making you laugh at the incident? A "boo" without a "hiss" would be meaningless. A capital "H" in "hiss" would be sacrilege, and Russ would ban you from the list for a week. Your return would be just in time for when Henry allegedly will start shipping lights. :twothumbs

I took a chance that you would take my humor badly, and I am glad that you did not.


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## cree8 (Oct 22, 2008)

So is 140 a calibrated max level or a worst case minimum? That is if you were luckey and got an above avarage emitter could you still get more than 140 lm?


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## orcinus (Oct 22, 2008)

cree8 said:


> So is 140 a calibrated max level or a worst case minimum? That is if you were luckey and got an above avarage emitter could you still get more than 140 lm?



It's a calibrated burst level, AFAIK. Might be wrong, though...


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## shomie911 (Oct 22, 2008)

cree8 said:


> So is 140 a calibrated max level or a worst case minimum? That is if you were luckey and got an above avarage emitter could you still get more than 140 lm?



Why is everyone so obsessed with this?!

You will not be able to tell the difference! Believe me.


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## luxlover (Oct 22, 2008)

cree8 said:


> So is 140 a calibrated max level, or a worst case minimum? That is if you were lucky and got an above avarage emitter, could you still get more than 140 lm?


No matter which light Henry produced, every level for which he gave a specific rating was calibrated. I believe that the overall tolerance of his previous lights was +5% and -5%. Many of us use his lights as reference lights because of the accuracy of their outputs. If he rates a light at 140lm burst and 100lm for high, they will be very close to those numbers. In the past, Henry has stated that his lights were calibrated for a set output, that of the light's rating. He also stated that with variations in the efficiency of the emitter, the runtime will vary but never any lower than the runtime in the product specifications. In the case of a light with a higher efficiency level, it's runtime will be longer.

Therefore, every Ra Clicky light will have a burst output very close to 140lm and a high level very close to 100lm.


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## cree8 (Oct 22, 2008)

shomie911 said:


> Why is everyone so obsessed with this?!
> 
> You will not be able to tell the difference! Believe me.



I am not obsessed I am cuirous as to weather the specs have changed perhaps I should have asked is burst mode still regulated?


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## m16a (Oct 22, 2008)

luxlover said:


> That one is good. How about yours in front and the following on the back?....."Have you hugged your Ra Clicky 140C today?" The thought of this warms your heart, doesn't it?





orcinus said:


> How about we print a nice little set of shirts with a Clicky and text saying "120-C - Never forget!"




I could go with those, great ideas guys

How much are they??:twothumbs


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## luxlover (Oct 22, 2008)

shomie911 said:


> Why is everyone so obsessed with this?!
> 
> You will not be able to tell the difference! Believe me.


In my case it is NOT an obsession, since I have used Henry's lights as reference lights knowing that he has calibrated them to be at their rated output. Other than for comparison with luxmeters and other light measuring devices, you are correct that only large differences in output will be perceived by us.


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## adirondackdestroyer (Oct 22, 2008)

This looks like one hell of a light and should be another classic like the U60. My only problem is the insane price increase for "Guaranteed Tint". I mean honestly, a $50 price increase on an LED that costs under $10 total. I can see how this was effective back in 2003 when a T bin Lux 3 was super rare, but now every $50 flashlight is using a Q5 WC. 

For the price of the GT upgrade you can buy an entire flashlight! Am I the only one who sees this for what it is?


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## luxlover (Oct 22, 2008)

cree8 said:


> I am not obsessed I am curious as to whether the specs have changed. Perhaps I should have asked "is burst mode still regulated?"


That is a great question, which I believe can only be answered by Henry. I say this because no light before the Clicky has had burst mode, and burst mode cannot be sustained like all the other levels.


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## shomie911 (Oct 22, 2008)

adirondackdestroyer said:


> This looks like one hell of a light and should be another classic like the U60. My only problem is the insane price increase for "Guaranteed Tint". I mean honestly, a $50 price increase on an LED that costs under $10 total. I can see how this was effective back in 2003 when a T bin Lux 3 was super rare, but now every $50 flashlight is using a Q5 WC.
> 
> For the price of the GT upgrade you can buy an entire flashlight! Am I the only one who sees this for what it is?



Henry's already talked about the process through which they find the "Guranteed Tint" lights. They're not making money on it.

For the people concerned with tint, the extra $50 is worth it, so don't knock it because it's not something you care for.


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## shomie911 (Oct 22, 2008)

luxlover said:


> In my case it is NOT an obsession, since I have used Henry's lights as reference lights knowing that he has calibrated them to be at their rated output. Other than for comparison with luxmeters and other light measuring devices, you are correct that only large differences in output will be perceived by us.



In the case of comparison I understand why someone would be concerned.

But some people seem to be making purchase decisions based on increments of less than 20 lumens.

And in that case, those people are a little too obsessed with specs, because that slight change in output is imperceptible with the human eye.

Not trying to start an argument, just want everyone to buy a Clicky regardless of a few lumens, because you will be happy that you did.

I absolutely love my Twisty 85-TR. It may seem like it has low output (85 lumens) compared to todays high-ouput lights, but in field use, it has a huge amount of useful output out of a very small, tough package. :twothumbs


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## luxlover (Oct 22, 2008)

adirondackdestroyer said:


> This looks like one hell of a light and should be another classic like the U60. My only problem is the insane price increase for "Guaranteed Tint". I mean honestly, a $50 price increase on an LED that costs under $10 total. I can see how this was effective back in 2003 when a T bin Lux 3 was super rare, but now every $50 flashlight is using a Q5 WC.
> 
> For the price of the GT upgrade you can buy an entire flashlight! Am I the only one who sees this for what it is?


I will add to shomie's post #262. The so called "GT" led is one that has a very specific color temperature, and is not easy to find. If I recall correctly, it is the color temperature of the sun at noon in the northern hemisphere during the summer....or is it during the winter? Henry posted the temperature in kelvin degrees as 5,469. For many, this will be too warm. But many HDS light owners have gone bonkers over this add-on since the beginning.


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## matrixshaman (Oct 22, 2008)

adirondackdestroyer said:


> This looks like one hell of a light and should be another classic like the U60. My only problem is the insane price increase for "Guaranteed Tint". I mean honestly, a $50 price increase on an LED that costs under $10 total. I can see how this was effective back in 2003 when a T bin Lux 3 was super rare, but now every $50 flashlight is using a Q5 WC.
> 
> For the price of the GT upgrade you can buy an entire flashlight! Am I the only one who sees this for what it is?



I would say it's more the cost of calibrating, testing the Bin's and deciding which ones fall into the GT class. No one's twisting your arm to buy one but I can guarantee for some people that $50 is still small pocket change and if you want the best there are some buyers who won't have a problem with that. In my case I actually like my standard U60 better than my U60GT as far as tint.


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## luxlover (Oct 22, 2008)

shomie911 said:


> In the case of comparison I understand why someone would be concerned.
> 
> But some people seem to be making purchase decisions based on increments of less than 20 lumens.
> 
> ...


Good explanation. But why is your signature line *--Incan's Rule--*, when you are recommendating the Clicky to everybody? Are you some kind of double agent super spy?


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## shomie911 (Oct 22, 2008)

luxlover said:


> Good explanation. But why is your signature line *--Incan's Rule--*, when you are recommendating the Clicky to everybody? Are you some kind of double agent super spy?



Considering how great the Twisty is, I'd recommend anything designed by Henry. :twothumbs

Incan's do rule, but for small single cell lights, you can't really beat the combination of battery life, output, and durability presented by a good, quality LED flashlight.

But when size isn't an issue, incan can't be beat! (IMO of course)


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## luxlover (Oct 22, 2008)

matrixshaman said:


> I would say it's more the cost of calibrating, testing the Bin's and deciding which ones fall into the GT class. No one's twisting your arm to buy one but I can guarantee for some people that $50 is still small pocket change and if you want the best there are some buyers who won't have a problem with that. In my case I actually like my standard U60 better than my U60GT as far as tint.


Matrix,
I see that you remember Henry's lessons from the olden days. I also like the tints of my U60s better than the warmish tints of the few U60GT lights I have seen.


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## luxlover (Oct 22, 2008)

shomie911 said:


> Considering how great the Twisty is, I'd recommend anything designed by Henry. :twothumbs
> 
> Incan's do rule, but for small single cell lights, you can't really beat the combination of battery life, output, and durability presented by a good, quality LED flashlight.
> 
> But when size isn't an issue, incan can't be beat! (IMO of course)


Good attitude about a Henry light! I am afraid that LED outputs will not be as high in output as an incan. for a long time. For throw, an incan. does rule. The most critical shortcoming of an incan. still seems to be lack of impact resistance.


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## HDS_Systems (Oct 23, 2008)

Cree8,

Burst is calibrated.

AdirondackDestroyer,

We offer the GT because we can obtain the required LEDs and our customers like them. Many customers like the ability to order and know what tint they will receive without having to go through the tint lottery. LEDs that can meed the GT tint requirements and the required efficiency requirements are still only a small percentage of white LED production.

Henry.


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## mikes1 (Oct 23, 2008)

Thanks for the latest updates Henry I am still looking forward to my Clicky

Mike


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## paxxus (Oct 23, 2008)

Seriously, can we have the 10 sec timer on max removed? Noone have provided an explanation as to why it's there. Last time we discussed it, it was all about what was needed etc. but that STILL doesn't explain WHY it's there in the first place. Why on earth add complexity with the sole purpose of artificially restricting the user? What is the gain for the user?

In fact, this timer "feature" is so utterly weird that I thought that the real explanation must be something which Henry dídn't want to disclose. Perhaps a marketing driven desicion to prevent people quoting runtimes on max knowing they would be way below the one hour due to the physical laws of LEDs. But now, with the change in naming, I dunno...

Why do I bring this up again? Well, until recently I thought I'd get 120lm for on hour from my 120Cn, now I'm going to get 140lm for 10 sec. You see, that's a perfectly valid way of looking at it - the "20lm is nothing to the eye" argument works both ways.


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## Kid9P (Oct 23, 2008)

paxxus said:


> Seriously, can we have the 10 sec timer on max removed? Noone have provided an explanation as to why it's there. Last time we discussed it, it was all about what was needed etc. but that STILL doesn't explain WHY it's there in the first place. Why on earth add complexity with the sole purpose of artificially restricting the user? What is the gain for the user?
> 
> In fact, this timer "feature" is so utterly weird that I thought that the real explanation must be something which Henry dídn't want to disclose. Perhaps a marketing driven desicion to prevent people quoting runtimes on max knowing they would be way below the one hour due to the physical laws of LEDs. But now, with the change in naming, I dunno...
> 
> Why do I bring this up again? Well, until recently I thought I'd get 120lm for on hour from my 120Cn, now I'm going to get 140lm for 10 sec. You see, that's a perfectly valid way of looking at it - the "20lm is nothing to the eye" argument works both ways.


 

If you don't want the 10sec burst, just program it and step it down to the next available light level. Problem Solved.

Why the burst you ask? Have you ever used your highbeams on your car to see something a little clearer ? Same concept. 

I personally may not use it all the time, but it is nice knowing it's there if needed.


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## LLCoolBeans (Oct 23, 2008)

Kid9P said:


> If you don't want the 10sec burst, just program it and step it down to the next available light level. Problem Solved.
> 
> Why the burst you ask? Have you ever used your highbeams on your car to see something a little clearer ? Same concept.
> 
> I personally may not use it all the time, but it is nice knowing it's there if needed.



I think his point is, why arbitrarily limit burst to 10 seconds. Why not let the user decide?

It's not that he dislikes the burst feature, he just does not understand what the significance of the fixed 10 seconds is.

I would have to agree with him, why not set 10 as the default and allow the user to change it to 5 seconds or 11 seconds or 110 seconds or whatever?


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## Kid9P (Oct 23, 2008)

LLCoolBeans said:


> I think his point is, why arbitrarily limit burst to 10 seconds. Why not let the user decide?
> 
> It's not that he dislikes the burst feature, he just does not understand what the significance of the fixed 10 seconds is.
> 
> I would have to agree with him, why not set 10 as the default and allow the user to change it to 5 seconds or 11 seconds or 110 seconds or whatever?


 

My bad, I misunderstood.

Damn, I agree as well. If I want high set to 140 Lumens, I should be able to do it. 

Bummer. :sigh:


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## Optik49 (Oct 23, 2008)

LLCoolBeans said:


> I think his point is, why arbitrarily limit burst to 10 seconds. Why not let the user decide?
> 
> It's not that he dislikes the burst feature, he just does not understand what the significance of the fixed 10 seconds is.
> 
> I would have to agree with him, why not set 10 as the default and allow the user to change it to 5 seconds or 11 seconds or 110 seconds or whatever?


 
+1


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## Dead_Nuts (Oct 23, 2008)

I know that the warmer tint LEDs allow me to better determine color variations. I showed this to my 20 year old son just last night. I used a very cool tint light to light up a grill cover in the neighbor's yard and asked my son what color it was. He wasn't sure, but guessed dark blue. Then with the beautiful warm tint, that my last 85-Tr just happened to come with, I illuminated the same object. He very clearly identified it as dark green. I turned on the security floods and there it was, in all of it's green splendor.

I guess it just depends on what you are using the light for. For covert grill cover recon, warm is better.


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## paxxus (Oct 23, 2008)

LLCoolBeans said:


> I think his point is, why arbitrarily limit burst to 10 seconds. Why not let the user decide?
> 
> It's not that he dislikes the burst feature, he just does not understand what the significance of the fixed 10 seconds is.
> 
> I would have to agree with him, why not set 10 as the default and allow the user to change it to 5 seconds or 11 seconds or 110 seconds or whatever?


Thanks, LL. That was exactly what I meant. But I'd go a step further, I don't need a programmable timer. Why on earth have it, at all? Extra complexity with the sole purpose of artificially restricting the user. Why, oh why!

I'm going to claim that NOBODY here understands why it's there. Some will say that they're not bothered by it and so forth and that's fine, but actually understanding why it's there..... Yes, I can go buy another light if I don't like it, but that STILL doesn't explain anything.

With the maketing driven name change and the reduction in output this becomes a little more significant. Can anyone really compare a 140lm light against say a 120lm light with a straight face, when the 140lm can only be sustained for 10 secs.?


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## LLCoolBeans (Oct 23, 2008)

paxxus said:


> Thanks, LL. That was exactly what I meant. But I'd go a step further, I don't need a programmable timer. Why on earth have it, at all? Extra complexity with the sole purpose of artificially restricting the user. Why, oh why!



I think it's premature to make that statement until we actually have the lights and can see how it works first hand.

I agree, it does seem weird, but until we actually start playing with it, we won't know for sure if it has any real value.


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## luxlover (Oct 23, 2008)

Gentlemen, Gentlemen (this means you paxxus, kid9p, optik49 and llcoolbeans),
No pushing, no shoving, please! I am surprised that all four of you cannot _fathom_ the sheer simplicity of limiting the use of the burst mode! :thinking: Allow me to *regurgitate* my thoughts below.....
When Henry first decided to offer lights with 170lm burst and 120lm sustained _for a minimum of one hour_, he thought that he would be able to have carefree production runs where he was able to acquire those _overachiever_ emitters from his source.....in production quantities. That meant that he could guarantee us that he could deliver a sustained 120lm without thermal issues aging the emitter prematurely or causing the thermal management sensor to trigger a one level drop. Since Henry has claimed that his Clicky lights will not experience a thermal issue at 120lm, he decided, with the suggestion of some of us (not me), that he would include the 170lm burst level for special needs. But because thermal issues were introduced when using this level sustained, he limited the use of the burst mode to 10 seconds. I am sure that if he found that a light could run without damage for 20 seconds or more, he would have given it to us. Remember that all of his lights are small, and have very little metal contact area to draw heat away from the emitter. The following may help you feel _less_ _cheated_. Are you aware that you can reinitiate the burst mode by pressing the button again, and doing this repetitively? Of course, you will have to hold the light in a way were your hand will draw heat from the light via your blood circulation. Bottom line is that the 170lm burst mode needs to be managed to protect ourselves from.....ourselves. Most of us like to use the highest level offered on our lights, and Henry knows this. To protect us from our own need for mega levels of light, he has controlled our use of burst mode via the clock.

Yesterday, Henry dropped all three 120lm lights from his product line. Many of us are disappointed in this action, for various reasons. My feeling is that he couldn't acquire production quantity _overachiever _emitters that would allow the 170lm/120lm pairing. Now we have three lights from which to choose. The emitters in these lights are _not overachievers_. So for the same reason that a burst mode at 170lm would prematurely age the emitters and force a one level drop in output, the ones in the 140lm/100lm models would do the same.

I believe that the last steps in his production procedure, are the calibration of power, output levels and thermal cut-off point. If he finds that his 140lm/100lm emitters can be_ safely_ extended past 10 seconds, I am sure that he will increase the burst time for us. Right now, I totally trust Henry's judgement in this matter, hoping like all of you that he finds a way to increase the burst time before shipping. If not, then we may _safely_ use the light in burst mode, reinitiating that level by pressing the button repetitively when the 140lm level drops to the 100lm rated level of the light.

As kid9p alluded in his response to paxxus, a user can always configure the light for the _high preset,_ by selecting level 22 (100lm) instead of level 23 (140lm burst/100lm sustained). In this way, initiating the high level will give 100lm sustained, and not 140lm for ten seconds followed by 100lm sustained. This would be a less stressful scenario for some of us, than playing with the button every ten seconds. Note that as emitters become more efficient, and these may be acquired in production quantities, Henry will give us higher maximum output levels. The way i look at it henry has given us a 140lm gift, without allowing us to shorten the usable lifespan of the emitter. Remember that he is still offering us a lifetime warranty, and if he builds in self-destructive features, then he will be out of business.

All of the above is factual to the best of my ability, based on posts from Henry and phone conversations with him. He may have had other reasons why he limited burst mode to ten seconds, but I am not aware of them.

May the force be with us, for early November ownership of the Clicky light of our choice.

Jeff


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## luxlover (Oct 23, 2008)

Dead_Nuts said:


> I guess it just depends on what you are using the light for. For covert grill cover recon, warm is better.


You are killing me. We could use you in my 'hood!


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## paxxus (Oct 23, 2008)

LLCoolBeans said:


> I agree, it does seem weird, but until we actually start playing with it, we won't know for sure if it has any real value.


The point is that we have not been given a hint as to what that value might be. We have been told something along the line of "people will compliain either way, so we decided to do this", but that's totally lame. Are we to believe that some people will actually complain about being allowed to run on max until the thermal management kicks in, instead of being allowed to only run for 10 seconds!?

Everybody understands the thermal step down, it's a very nice feature with a very specific purpose. The 10 sec. max limit is just totally weird.


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## luxlover (Oct 23, 2008)

LLCoolBeans said:


> I think it's premature to make that statement until we actually have the lights and can see how it works first hand.
> 
> I agree, it does seem weird, but until we actually start playing with it, we won't know for sure if it has any real value.


I agree that we should all wait and get used to the way the light is utilized before condemning it's design. 

The real value of 140lm vs 100lm is usually not determinable in close range use. Remember that 140lm is still more light than 100lm, even if our brain doesn't think so. When shining a light with a greater output over a greater distance, the higher output light will illuminate targets further away than the lower output light. This is an indisputable fact, especially when both lights are the same in all ways except light output. I am not sure how to calculate the added distance covered by the higher output light, but I am sure that it is any easy task. So even though the 140lm burst may not dazzle you when compared to the 100lm level, it will illuminate a target that is further away.

Jeff


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## HDS_Systems (Oct 23, 2008)

Paxxus,

When the concept of Burst was first originated 5 years ago, the concept was to allow the user to have lots of light even if the light was generated very inefficiently. The concept was that efficiency could be traded off for a short period of very bright light. In practical use, there are many situations where you need as much light as possible but only for a short period - usually in the range of seconds. But sometimes you do need it for a little longer.

Several examples may illustrate this. When picking your way down a mountain side, you need to plan out the next 100 yards (or meters) of travel so a burst of very bright light extends your vision. But once you have picked a route, 15 lumens is plenty to follow the route.

Another example. You are walking along and hear something beyond the range of your light. A burst of light allows you to extend your vision may times further so you can identify what made the noise. You need to quickly identify the noise as friend or foe. Once the identification is made you can return to the lower power. If you are running for your life, you don't need the brightest possible output to do so.

Another example. While exploring a cave the number of hours of light is very important since the sun will never rise. You never want to run out. However, the brightness level you normally use will not allow you to see across a large room or into a high ceiling or down a deep pit. Burst is perfect for that.

So what happened to the original concept? Marketing. One plussing. In the end, burst turned into just another setting with a real short runtime. This resulted in two problems. The first problem is that users complained about the short runtimes and the amount of heat generated. And then they complained when the flashlight thermal limited. The second problem is that the utility of the flashlight suffered.

When we came out with the EDC-series (Basic and Ultimate) we extended the runtimes of the maximum setting and also offered an XR version that was quite popular. The utility want up but it was definitely not burst.

When we came out with the Ra Twisty, we extended the runtimes still further and significantly increased the utility but sacrificed maximum output to get it.

When the Ra Clicky came along we decided to take another look at the original burst concept. We did not want it to interfere with the existing user interface. We wanted it to be automatic. And we wanted it to be truly burst and not just another setting. And the user should be able to easily extend the burst time if needed. Practical utility was the guiding requirement.

We talked to quite a few people about the concept and got lots of suggestions for various ways to implement it. We listened to what people liked and did not like and how they thought they wanted to use it. After a few months and a couple of different implementations, we settled on the current implementation as being the most useful and providing the best utility.

The implementation is very intuitive to use. It does what you expect. It gives you the maximum possible output when you need it without killing your batteries or making you sacrifice a brightness setting. And if you need more than 10 seconds, you can have as many 10 second bursts as required to get the job done.

I suggest you use it for a while and then tell me what you think.

LuxLover,

The selection of parameters has nothing to do with emitter aging or the like. Our exceptional thermal path, thermal limiting and constant power drive take care of those issues very nicely. Utility is the primary parameter.

Henry.


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## Dadof6 (Oct 23, 2008)

Thanks for the update and info Henry. Now just get us our lights . . . please.


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## orcinus (Oct 23, 2008)

HDS_Systems said:


> The first problem is that users complained about the short runtimes and the amount of heat generated. And then they complained when the flashlight thermal limited. The second problem is that the utility of the flashlight suffered.



Arc6 has a "burst" of sorts (the highly inefficient Level 7), but it's thermal limited. I really don't have any complaints regarding it. I'm aware it's there for short bursts and really use it as such. I'm not sure how i'd react if it suddenly got hard-limited to 10 seconds, though...

It's true i really never use it for _more _than 10 seconds (in fact, i rarely use it - period), but it's a purely psychological thing. A lot of people here are true flashaholics, and true flashaholics are also true gadget freaks. Gadget freaks love to have as much control as possible over their gadgets, and Clicky (by the sounds of it) is just the right kind of light for such people. Imposing limits to the way they (/us) use their flashlights - even when completely logical and justified - makes them (/us) hiss and spit. It has absolutely nothing to do with real-world use or logic. That's just the way things are...


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## m16a (Oct 23, 2008)

HDS_Systems said:


> The selection of parameters has nothing to do with emitter aging or the like. Our exceptional thermal path, thermal limiting and constant power drive take care of those issues very nicely. Utility is the primary parameter.
> 
> Henry.




Henry, thanks a lot for the info, I now understand the burst mode a good deal better, and I like the whole concept. I must now preface this question with the fact that this is a PURELY inquisitive question, I am not bashing the concept nor am I asking for it to be changed. Now based on what you said to luxlover(above), could the burst POTENTIALLY be extended past 10 seconds without any damage? Again, just curiosity! 

M16a


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## luxlover (Oct 23, 2008)

HDS_Systems said:


> Paxxus,
> When the concept of Burst was first originated 5 years ago, the concept was to allow the user to have lots of light even if the light was generated very inefficiently. The concept was that efficiency could be traded off for a short period of very bright light. In practical use, there are many situations where you need as much light as possible but only for a short period - usually in the range of seconds. But sometimes you do need it for a little longer.
> 
> Several examples may illustrate this. When picking your way down a mountain side, you need to plan out the next 100 yards (or meters) of travel so a burst of very bright light extends your vision. But once you have picked a route, 15 lumens is plenty to follow the route.
> ...


Henry,
Informative post. I like that you have formally stated, the burst mode can be used in an unlimited repetitive manner, until the battery is depleted. I like the tale of the birth and evolution of burst mode.

I stand corrected on my erroneous premises. Based on your second sentence in your reply to me, I realize that you are quite modest and humble! 

Jeff


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## orcinus (Oct 23, 2008)

m16a said:


> Now based on what you said to luxlover(above), could the burst POTENTIALLY be extended past 10 seconds without any damage? Again, just curiosity!



From what i've gisted (between Henries lines and in them), it's not a matter of damage or thermal issues, as much as a matter of runtime. I think he's afraid that people would keep (ab)using the energetically inefficient burst level, then start complaining they aren't getting the advertised 100 lumen hours.

*Edit:* Crud. Luxlover just beat me to the chase and with much more style


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## Optik49 (Oct 23, 2008)

Well not to change the subject but I ordered the now Ra-140-CGT but I am worried I should have gone with the Ra-140-CN for the narrower beam. Out of all my lights, I like the beam on my NovaTac 120P the best (as well as the light it self) so I guess / I’m hoping the Ra-140-CGT will be similar or better. 
 

I’m very excided to have my first HDS aka RA light. A few years ago I noticed HDS the internet and wanted one but I could not get over the price. Now as my addiction has gotten worse over the past couple of years I’m finely able to buy one. I have never seen one in person so like everyone else I’m very excited to get the new Clicky when ever it’s ready. I would not mind seeing some beam shots of the three models when they are ready.


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## paxxus (Oct 23, 2008)

Henry, thank you for your very informative post - nice to know the background. Looking forward to receiving my Clicky!



orcinus said:


> From what i've gisted (between Henries lines and in them), it's not a matter of damage or thermal issues, as much as a matter of runtime. I think he's afraid that people would keep (ab)using the energetically inefficient burst level, then start complaining they aren't getting the advertised 100 lumen hours.


 
Yes, that's what I kind of read into it as well. Looks like I wasn't too far off when I posted this:



paxxus said:


> In fact, this timer "feature" is so utterly weird that I thought that the real explanation must be something which Henry dídn't want to disclose. Perhaps a marketing driven desicion to prevent people quoting runtimes on max knowing they would be way below the one hour due to the physical laws of LEDs.


----------



## luxlover (Oct 23, 2008)

orcinus said:


> From what I've gisted (between Henry's lines and in them), it's not a matter of damage or thermal issues, as much as a matter of runtime. I think he's afraid that people would keep (ab)using the energetically inefficient burst level, then start complaining they aren't getting the advertised 100 lumens hour.
> 
> *Edit:* Crud. Luxlover just beat me to the chase, and with much more style


Thank you. On the contrary, you better put into layman's terms that it is ONLY runtime that Henry was preserving in our behalf. It isn't so bad being monitored by a manufacturer, who can see bad habits ruining our experience with his product. Nothing wrong with that! :naughty:

Jeff


----------



## karlthev (Oct 23, 2008)

I hope all have PAID for their clickies by this time--talk is cheap, REAL cheap! If you wish to support Ra (and I do), walk the walk folks! Lets see those greenbacks. 


Karl


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## kindred_spirits (Oct 23, 2008)

Well I'm glad I waited till now to place my pre-order. I was going to get the 120-Cn, but placed an order for a 140-Cn.


----------



## :)> (Oct 23, 2008)

Optik49 said:


> Well not to change the subject but I ordered the now Ra-140-CGT but I am worried I should have gone with the Ra-140-CN for the narrower beam. Out of all my lights, I like the beam on my NovaTac 120P the best (as well as the light it self) so I guess / I’m hoping the Ra-140-CGT will be similar or better.
> 
> 
> I’m very excided to have my first HDS aka RA light. A few years ago I noticed HDS the internet and wanted one but I could not get over the price. Now as my addiction has gotten worse over the past couple of years I’m finely able to buy one. I have never seen one in person so like everyone else I’m very excited to get the new Clicky when ever it’s ready. I would not mind seeing some beam shots of the three models when they are ready.


 
I think that you will love your light and if you like the beam from the Novatac then you will be more than satisfied with the beam from the CGT Clicky. I don't know that there are any better lights than Ra / HDS lights.


----------



## dixemon (Oct 23, 2008)

I would rather have 120 lumens for one hour than 100lm and 140 burst.


----------



## wrencher (Oct 23, 2008)

I would rather have low red than burst. I own a 100tr and use the low red often. To me burst is the least useful of the lights features. That and strobe, SOS and locator. Other than impressing our friend, does anyone ever use them? I realize I'm in the small minority here. With all the comments about the burst setting, weather it will be bright enough or last long enough. JMO

Jeff


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## Robertesq1 (Oct 23, 2008)

Dadof6 said:


> Thanks for the update and info Henry. Now just get us our lights . . . please.




+1


----------



## tricker (Oct 23, 2008)

wrencher said:


> I would rather have low red than burst. I own a 100tr and use the low red often. To me burst is the least useful of the lights features. That and strobe, SOS and locator. Other than impressing our friend, does anyone ever use them? I realize I'm in the small minority here. With all the comments about the burst setting, weather it will be bright enough or last long enough. JMO
> 
> Jeff




that red was extremely inefficent...i would rather have the low white


----------



## SnWnMe (Oct 24, 2008)

I used my red output more than my white in the last 72 hours. And yeah I will take red over burst. I have a use for a strobe as well.

Different strokes.


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## PeterK (Oct 24, 2008)

Don't get me wrong - I'm just about to order one of those clickies (for several reasons) 
What I, as a relative newbie, don't understand is the hype about the burst mode and runtime of 1 hour at 100 lumens.
If for example I look at http://www.cpfreviews.com/NiteCore-DI-Extreme.php it runs for 47 minutes at 170 lumens. Can that be considered as a "self-destruction-mode"?
Or, even more strange: my even smaller Fenix PD20 is supposed to deliver 180 lumens for something between 30 mins an 1 hour in "Turbo Mode". Am I destroying my LED if I use this mode for more than 10 seconds?

Peter, a bit confused.


----------



## karlthev (Oct 24, 2008)

Powering an LED as hard as possible to get every last lumen will shorten the life of the LED, period. Compare it to driving your car with the "pedal to the metal". 

Who is "Peter"? :thinking:




Karl


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## paxxus (Oct 24, 2008)

PeterK said:


> Am I destroying my LED if I use this mode for more than 10 seconds?
> 
> Peter, a bit confused.


No, the Clicky has very advanced thermal management which prevents you from damaging the light. This is one of the things that makes the Ra lights so reliable. No LED frying.

From what we've been told a slightly speculative guess is that the 10 sec is there to protect the user against himself and to prevent bad runtime results. Some like this line of thinking, some don't. It may prove useful in practical use though, we'll see.


----------



## paxxus (Oct 24, 2008)

karlthev said:


> Who is "Peter"? :thinking:


 Summon all of your deductive powers and take a wild guess


----------



## mikes1 (Oct 24, 2008)

paxxus said:


> Summon all of your deductive powers and take a wild guess



I will guess the guy who made the post

What do I win 

Mike


----------



## karlthev (Oct 24, 2008)

Oh paxxus, so I should say "Karl", what do I do now---or are YOU just too clever for me and know the guessing game?? 


Karl


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## PeterK (Oct 24, 2008)

Hey Guys,

calm down, please.
If this was meant to introduce myself somewhere in this forum I'll do so 

the "Peter"


----------



## karlthev (Oct 24, 2008)

Not to worry PeterK, it's clear to me paxxus is not familiar with Peter Gransee who had, at one time, affiliation with Henry Schneiker in the development of the Arc4+ when Gransee operated the original Arc company. The use of your name in reference to yourself was unusual...confusing... We're cool! Not to worry 



Karl


----------



## luxlover (Oct 24, 2008)

PeterK said:


> Hey Guys,
> 
> calm down, please.
> If this was meant to introduce myself somewhere in this forum I'll do so
> ...


Peter,
Four post CPF member.....Welcome to CPF and to the thread that was intended to share the beauty of the best little light east of the Rockies. There is a weird mystique about your appearance here, but to me you are just another Clicky loving guy. Keep on truckin'.

Jeff


----------



## paxxus (Oct 24, 2008)

karlthev said:


> We're cool! Not to worry


Yeah, sorry if anyone took offense at me fooling around. We are indeed cool - welcome Peter :wave:

PS.: Of course I know who "Peter Gransee" is


----------



## Kid9P (Oct 24, 2008)

Just curious.....anyone receive their PROTOTYPE yet ?? :thinking:


----------



## Dead_Nuts (Oct 24, 2008)

PeterK said:


> Don't get me wrong - I'm just about to order one of those clickies (for several reasons)
> What I, as a relative newbie, don't understand is the hype about the burst mode and runtime of 1 hour at 100 lumens.
> If for example I look at http://www.cpfreviews.com/NiteCore-DI-Extreme.php it runs for 47 minutes at 170 lumens. Can that be considered as a "self-destruction-mode"?
> Or, even more strange: my even smaller Fenix PD20 is supposed to deliver 180 lumens for something between 30 mins an 1 hour in "Turbo Mode". Am I destroying my LED if I use this mode for more than 10 seconds?
> ...



In Henry's last post he made it clear that it (burst) was not a durability issue, but rather a run-time issue. The other lights you mention are pushing the LEDs almost as hard as the power supply's will allow. Nothing wrong with that. OTOH, what we buy when we buy an HDS light is a not a light that eeks out the very last lumen of an emitter, but a light that can survive extreme conditions and still work when you need it to. The 1 hour figure was chosen as a reasonable amount of run-time. These lights are regulated to perform to at least these specs.

I'm not saying that you are destroying any light by operating it at it's advertised specs. Most lights will generate a considerable amount of heat when run for extended time, however.


----------



## karlthev (Oct 24, 2008)

Kid9P said:


> Just curious.....anyone receive their PROTOTYPE yet ?? :thinking:



Not yet...still waiting for it as well....:green:



Karl


----------



## orcinus (Oct 24, 2008)

PeterK said:


> Or, even more strange: my even smaller Fenix PD20 is *supposed *to deliver 180 lumens for something between 30 mins an 1 hour in "Turbo Mode".



The key word here is "supposed". First of all, Fenix states their lumen claims in theoretical emitter lumens. Second, most flashlight makers state and measure their runtimes to the point where the output drops to 50% of maximum.

What we're talking about here, on the other hand, is true, calibrated and measured "torch" lumens and FLAT output at maximum level for an hour.

Just to give you an inkling of how misleading lumen claims can be, P1D Q5's claimed 180 lumens are actually more like <130 lumens. A P3D Q5 is _supposed_ to be giving out 215 lumens in "Turbo mode". An Arc6, with it's 170-ish lumen levels 6 and 7 visibly beats it in brightness.


----------



## luxlover (Oct 24, 2008)

Dead_Nuts said:


> ......OTOH, what we buy when we buy an HDS light is a not a light that eeks out the very last lumen of an emitter, but a light that can survive extreme conditions and still work when you need it to. The 1 hour figure was chosen as a reasonable amount of run-time.


Well put. To further prove your point, I will quote Henry's well deserved partial slap on my hand for spreading vicious rumors about emitter aging through excess heat....."Our exceptional thermal path, thermal limiting and constant power drive take care of those issues very nicely. Utility is the primary parameter." Henry has become modest in his young years!  For the full slap on the hand, and other vital information, go here.....
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2672427#post2672427

Jeff


----------



## LLCoolBeans (Oct 24, 2008)

karlthev said:


> Not yet...still waiting for it as well....:green:
> Karl



Same here, no word on the protos yet.


----------



## Daniel_sk (Oct 24, 2008)

The Clicky is the only flashlight I am looking forward to and I have been holding off buying any other flashlights for 2+ months now. Website says it will be available in October, 6 days to go - I'll keep my fingers crossed. I wish I had preordered one Cn-140 . I'll probably sell my Tr-85 to fund the Clicky (tough decision).


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## wacbzz (Oct 24, 2008)

Ok-

I've just finished reading 40 pages of posts over the three seperate threads concerning the RA Clicky. I have *I believe* read all the links from Henry concerning the new light - the diagrams, the instructions, etc - and I have yet to find - through all that reading - the answer to the question that I have been wondering about since I started reading...

*What LEDs are being used in these lights???*

I found this seemingly pure speculation:



Enzo Morocioli said:


> ...Wide likely uses a SSC based LED, while the Narrow is likely to use OSRAM...



but nothing definite. Why not??:thinking:

Of couse, maybe with all the mind-swirling posts that have been plastered here, I _may_ have missed it, but I'm _sure_ I didn't.

Does anyone have a definite 100% sure answer? Henry...?


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## tricker (Oct 24, 2008)

if he uses the same brands as where in the twisty, than SSC and OSRAM it is.... no one will know till we get our hands on them


----------



## thermal guy (Oct 24, 2008)

I'm off to watch saw5 but i will leave with this statement.It is my belief that when the new clicky is out it will be THE light to have and the light that will get the job done period.And when all is said and done even those that are having a hard time with all the changes and delays will soon get one for themselves and say you know what Henry was right IMO. DAN

"unless this really offends people then it was my g/f that wrote this"


----------



## wacbzz (Oct 24, 2008)

tricker said:


> ... no one will know till we get our hands on them



But that is kinda my point...how can somebody new to the HDS/RA line be expected to pay upwards of $200 for an EDC light and not know what the emitter is going to be? It's not like that question hasn't been asked in the previous 40 pages. It has. And it has received no reply.

If these lights are already in production-as has been alluded to here in the past few days-then Henry already knows what the LED will be in all the versions of the light. 

Why not just let this cat out of the bag? Everything else about the light has been disclosed. Surely one can understand that it is not a completely stupid question to wonder what type of LED I may be getting in a light that I may order. This is the only manufacturer that I have ever seen do this...like it's some sort of secret or something.


----------



## luxlover (Oct 24, 2008)

thermal guy said:


> I'm off to watch saw5. but I will leave with this statement. It is my belief that when the new Clicky is out it will be THE light to have and the light that will get the job done, period. When all is said and done, even those who are having a hard time with all the changes and delays, will soon get one for themselves and say "you know what, Henry was right!" IMO. DAN
> 
> "unless this really offends people then it was my g/f that wrote this"


I don't know what you wrote above, but your girlfriend sure has a nice collection of lights in the picture in your signature line!!! You are one lucky guy to be enriched with a girlfriend with such good taste! 

Jeff


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## gswitter (Oct 24, 2008)

wacbzz said:


> Why not just let this cat out of the bag? Everything else about the light has been disclosed. Surely one can understand that it is not a completely stupid question to wonder what type of LED I may be getting in a light that I may order. This is the only manufacturer that I have ever seen do this...like it's some sort of secret or something.


The cat *IS* out of the bag. It's an LED that puts a minimum of 140 measured lumens out the front on burst, 100 lumens out the front for one hour on max, and if you dig through the info you'll find the spec's for every other level. Name another manufacturer that gives as specific and accurate specs for their lights. Just because other manufacturers base their lights on LED models (with planned obsolescence as soon as the next bin of the LED is available) doesn't mean everyone has to follow suit. By not marketing the Clicky as an "SSC P4", "XR-E R2" or "Golden Dragon Plus", HDS/Ra maintains the option of replacing/upgrading the LED at anytime for any reason without having the rev the marketing literature or re-educating the sales channels.


----------



## wacbzz (Oct 24, 2008)

gswitter said:


> The cat *IS* out of the bag. It's an LED that puts a minimum of 140 measured lumens out the front on burst, 100 lumens out the front for one hour on max, and if you dig through the info you'll find the spec's for every other level. Name another manufacturer that gives as specific and accurate specs for their lights.



Umm...Surefire...Pelican...want me to name some more??? Listing the specs still doesn't list the actual emitter. Plain and simple.




gswitter said:


> Just because other manufacturers base their lights on LED models (with planned obsolescence as soon as the next bin of the LED is available) doesn't mean everyone has to follow suit.



Did you mean _every other manufacturer_? How about you do some naming for me...name me one other manufacturer that DOESN'T disclose the emitter being used... 




gswitter said:


> By not marketing the Clicky as an "SSC P4", "XR-E R2" or "Golden Dragon Plus", HDS/Ra maintains the option of replacing/upgrading the LED at anytime for any reason without having the rev the marketing literature or re-educating the sales channels.



Cop out. Good guess though.:nana: See, changing the emitter *whatever it may be* doesn't preclude one from using any other emitter as long as the new emitter meets the specs that Henry says his light will be.

Please don't take this post the wrong way. I just figure that if you can tell exact design of how the lens is protected from breaking due to falls, you should be able to tell your potential customers what type of emitter you are planning on using *and that you reserve the right to switch if they become unavailable so long as the next emitter meets the same specs.*


----------



## h2oflyer (Oct 24, 2008)

I thought the Prototype(collectors item) were to be assembled
from parts on hand.


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## LLCoolBeans (Oct 24, 2008)

h2oflyer said:


> I thought the Prototype(collectors item) were to be assembled
> from parts on hand.



Yea, from Henry's original post concerning the protos, he made it seem that they would be availible almost right away. That was back in late August if I remember correctly.

Now it's looking like they will ship out at about the same time the production Clickys will. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they have been put on the back burner and we won't receive them until after the production Clickys.


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## HDS_Systems (Oct 24, 2008)

Wacbzz,

Does it really make any difference which LEDs get used as long as our flashlights meet the specifications? I am sure you would agree that given our specifications, we are rather picky about which LEDs go into our flashlights. There are actually very few LEDs that will meet our specifications. In fact, only two manufacturers produce LEDs that will meet our specifications. And only a few bins within the chosen LED models representing the top few percent will work.

The reason we do not specify a particular LED is that it makes it very difficult to change LEDs later if a better LED comes along. Or to use two different LEDs if that produces better results. Customers get hung up on this LED manufacturer makes better LEDs than that LED manufacturer when such a general statement is often wrong. People confuse "lab" reports and cherry-picked specials with production. LEDs from the "best" manufacturer are worthless if they cannot meet production specifications.

The LEDs we use are not secret. Anyone familiar with the current crop of high power LEDs will have no problem recognizing the LEDs. And there are lots of people who have correctly identified the LEDs we use. We simply choose not to use the LED brand names as part of our marketing.

Henry.


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## jimmy1970 (Oct 24, 2008)

HDS_Systems said:


> Wacbzz,
> 
> Does it really make any difference which LEDs get used as long as our flashlights meet the specifications? I am sure you would agree that given our specifications, we are rather picky about which LEDs go into our flashlights. There are actually very few LEDs that will meet our specifications. In fact, only two manufacturers produce LEDs that will meet our specifications. And only a few bins within the chosen LED models representing the top few percent will work.
> 
> ...


 
Well said... 

I personally couldn't care less what brand led's are used, I just want to know that I have the best available....
jr/


----------



## edumacated (Oct 24, 2008)

LLCoolBeans said:


> Yea, from Henry's original post concerning the protos, he made it seem that they would be availible almost right away. That was back in late August if I remember correctly.
> 
> Now it's looking like they will ship out at about the same time the production Clickys will. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they have been put on the back burner and we won't receive them until after the production Clickys.




...this is exactly the impression i have come to as well. 

disappointing/ predictable.


----------



## Dead_Nuts (Oct 24, 2008)

I haven't been around here all that long and maybe I'm naive. But all I really care about is that Henry's lights work -- every time, in every situation. That's what I am paying for.


----------



## copperfox (Oct 24, 2008)

HDS_Systems said:


> Does it really make any difference which LEDs get used as long as our flashlights meet the specifications? I am sure you would agree that given our specifications, we are rather picky about which LEDs go into our flashlights.



We all appreciate that you care a lot about producing a high quality product. But that doesn't quench our curiosity. 



HDS_Systems said:


> The reason we do not specify a particular LED is that it makes it very difficult to change LEDs later if a better LED comes along.



WHY?! You don't have to print the type of LED in your flashlight user manual, but that doesn't explain why you won't tell us right now. We're not lawyers, we are not the BBB, we will not report you to the authorities if you change the LED in 2 months. We simply want to know. We are enthusiasts with curiosity, and lots of us have enough knowledge to understand that changing LEDs is sometimes a normal part of the process.



HDS_Systems said:


> The LEDs we use are not secret. Anyone familiar with the current crop of high power LEDs will have no problem recognizing the LEDs. And there are lots of people who have correctly identified the LEDs we use. We simply choose not to use the LED brand names as part of our marketing.



And yet, you still haven't told us! Is this your way of saying that the Clicky will have the same LEDs as the twisty?

What I think this comes down to is the difference between a whitepaper launch and a reveal launch. We all want a whitepaper launch while you, Henry, want to yank back the white sheet at the last moment and go "ta da!"


----------



## HoopleHead (Oct 24, 2008)

personally i couldnt care less about a whitepaper launch. id much rather stop bugging the company and let them do their work to produce the product we all seem to be hoping for, and get the actual light in our hands. first impressions and runtime graphs and beamshots mean a lot more to me than a "whitepaper launch."

just dont include me in your "we" :nana:


----------



## ChocolateLab33 (Oct 24, 2008)

HoopleHead said:


> personally i couldnt care less about a whitepaper launch. id much rather stop bugging the company and let them do their work to produce the product we all seem to be hoping for, and get the actual light in our hands. first impressions and runtime graphs and beamshots mean a lot more to me than a "whitepaper launch."
> 
> just dont include me in your "we" :nana:


 

:twothumbs I agree


----------



## gswitter (Oct 24, 2008)

wacbzz said:


> Did you mean _every other manufacturer_? How about you do some naming for me...name me one other manufacturer that DOESN'T disclose the emitter being used...


Surefire...Pelican... 



> I just figure that if you can tell exact design of how the lens is protected from breaking due to falls, you should be able to tell your potential customers what type of emitter you are planning on using *and that you reserve the right to switch if they become unavailable so long as the next emitter meets the same specs.*


Ask the manufacturers who were building lights based on the K2 and Rebel how well that worked out. Maybe start with Arc.


----------



## orcinus (Oct 25, 2008)

gswitter said:


> Ask the manufacturers who were building lights based on the K2 and Rebel how well that worked out. Maybe start with Arc.



Hey! Mine has a K2. I had to pay a hefty sum for it, but it's built as advertised


----------



## Dadof6 (Oct 25, 2008)

copperfox said:


> We're not lawyers, we are not the . . . "



Speak for yourself. I am a lawyer and I appreciate Henry's approach.


----------



## dtsoll (Oct 25, 2008)

Well, the Clicky is supposed to be shipping this coming week, how ya bettin? Doug Man, I hope so!!!!!!!


----------



## Kid9P (Oct 25, 2008)

dtsoll said:


> Well, the Clicky is supposed to be shipping this coming week, how ya bettin? Doug Man, I hope so!!!!!!!



I'd say Feb 09, anyone care to bet?


----------



## luxlover (Oct 25, 2008)

Kid9P said:


> I'd say Feb 09, anyone care to bet?


Hush your mouth, Ray!  However, on the bright side, that's just in time to give as a Valentine's Day gift to a wife, a girlfriend.....OR BOTH!


----------



## manoloco (Oct 25, 2008)

Lux that date would be perfect to ASK for one to a girlfriend/wife  ; unless the woman is a flashaholic your going to have it thrown back to you.... hey wait a minute, thats not a bad idea...


----------



## luxlover (Oct 25, 2008)

manoloco said:


> Lux that date would be perfect to ASK for one to a girlfriend/wife  ; unless the woman is a flashaholic your going to have it thrown back to you.... hey wait a minute, thats not a bad idea...


Hola Senor,
I owe you a pm reply. Pronto, after this post.....

If I am understanding you correctly, you offer a Clicky to the girl of your wildest dreams, knowing that she will not accept it because she won't know how to use it. She gives it back to you, along with hugs and kisses, looks into your eyes and tenderly whispers "it's the thought that counts." There you have it, you just acquired another Clicky, and you are a big hit with your amora! You are a genius.

Jeff


----------



## manoloco (Oct 25, 2008)

Hey you were the one that came up with the idea, i just looked it with a different glass


----------



## luxlover (Oct 25, 2008)

manoloco said:


> Hey you were the one that came up with the idea, i just looked it with a different glass


Must have been a "magnifying" glass! :twothumbs


----------



## luxlover (Oct 25, 2008)

Henry and others,

For better or for worse, my brain has been working at warp speed while waiting for the Clicky to be available. I am going to assume that the Clicky will have the same feature as the "competition's" user customizable lights and your EDC lights, namely _Tactical Momentary Mode_. I highly doubt that you would "exclude" it from the Clicky, after working so hard to make it the most durable light in your arsenal? So here is my thought. Let's say that a user turns on the light and goes to burst mode, then enters the Options Menu and enables Tactical Momentary Mode. Will a button press/hold action keep burst mode active for the ten seconds and then drop to 100lm level as would be the case under normal use? Will the light immediately switch to the previous level used, if the user releases the button before the ten seconds transpires? Do you see any practical or tactical use for enabling tactical momentary mode to work in conjunction with burst mode?

Is it my imagination, but is the locator flash in both the EDC and "competition's" lights about as low as level 1 (0.08lm)? If so, it could be a little brighter so that it can somewhat reflect off a high ceiling in a room where your eyes are dark adapted.

I was also thinking of a way to avoid the ten seconds of burst mode (140lm/100lm = level 23) when planning to use 100lm on a regular basis, while keeping it assigned to the high preset. One can pick a preset that is rarely used, and sacrifice it by assigning level 22 (100lm) to that preset. For example, if one rarely uses the 0.07lm level of low (like in my case), and wants to use the 100lm level often, then assign level 22 to that preset. When one wants to use burst mode after being at the 100lm preset, and wants to shorten the ten second wait, then click the button before the ten seconds is up, and return to the 100lm preset. One click to interrupt burst mode returns the light to the previously used level.....in this case 100lm!! My setup will probably be burst mode for high, 100lm for primary, 35lm for secondary and 10lm for low. This is the beauty of Henry's lights.....the user is the Boss!


----------



## HoopleHead (Oct 25, 2008)

*0.3*lm on low or go home! :nana:


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## tricker (Oct 25, 2008)

wacbzz said:


> But that is kinda my point...how can somebody new to the HDS/RA line be expected to pay upwards of $200 for an EDC light and not know what the emitter is going to be? It's not like that question hasn't been asked in the previous 40 pages. It has. And it has received no reply.
> 
> If these lights are already in production-as has been alluded to here in the past few days-then Henry already knows what the LED will be in all the versions of the light.
> 
> Why not just let this cat out of the bag? Everything else about the light has been disclosed. Surely one can understand that it is not a completely stupid question to wonder what type of LED I may be getting in a light that I may order. This is the only manufacturer that I have ever seen do this...like it's some sort of secret or something.




nobody buys a mercedes benz and worries about who makes the engine, just trust a tradition of quality


----------



## Zenster (Oct 25, 2008)

tricker said:


> nobody buys a mercedes benz and worries about who makes the engine, just trust a tradition of quality


 
I bought the very last year of production of the International Scout with diesel engine (1980). Loved the darn thing and let it go at 146,000 miles and still running great. Never should have sold it.
The engine in it was a Nissan diesel engine.

My current vehicle is a Dodge Ram diesel with, you guessed it, a Cummins diesel engine.

I have no problem with whatever LED is chosen for the Clicky as long as the whole "package" of the product performs as intended. If the LED fails or is a nasty color or a crappy beam, then it would be up to RA/HDS to make good on the product, not the maker of the LED.

Surefire, easily the largest and most prestigious of the specialty flashlight companies, doesn't say much if anything about the LED's they use.
I've got a half dozen Surefires, and I don't care which LED's each uses as long as I like the qualities and color of the beam.

As much as I am disappointed with the delays and the most recent changes to the Clicky (discontinuing the Plus model even before it was produced and that I pre-paid for), the last thing I'm worried about is which LED it will have. Henry has built a reputation that whatever LED he chooses, it will be right for the job.

I'm buying a sophisticated light that will perform a certain way because of it's overall design. I'm not just buying an LED.


----------



## SaturnNyne (Oct 26, 2008)

Bloody hell, Jeff, I turn my back on this place for a few days and look at all the mischief you're stirring up! I'm digging through page after page of Clicky material... ok, time for a monster post! (Sorry, everyone.  )




Dead_Nuts said:


> That is my opinion as well. If there are only so many that meet the higher standard of the now defunct 120-Cxx, make them and give them to the first ones who pre-ordered. Pick a pre-order date and say that orders made after that will not be getting 120's (170's?).





LLCoolBeans said:


> If that is the case, and there just were not enough extra high efficiency emitters available to go around, then I completely understand Henry's decision.


I hope I'm not spilling any secrets, but I think it only benefits Henry to have it known, since there seems to be so much confusion concerning the reasons for dropping the premium models. Henry told me he is unable to guarantee even a single 120 would have been possible in the first batch, the necessary emitters are that rare. I don't know if emitter supply has changed since the 120Ts were made or if the LEDs used in the 120 Twisties still wouldn't be capable of the 170 burst, but apparently the 120C as a production model in any significant numbers is just not possible at this time; it's more than product line simplification.




luxlover said:


> Those of you who remember me


How could anyone forget!


luxlover said:


> I have been watching the Clicky threads with great enthusiasm, calculating the best time to come back.....with a vengeance.....


So the time has finally come... I've been waiting for this day with great trepidation.


luxlover said:


> and greater enthusiasm than before.


Oh no!  I really hope that's not possible!




luxlover said:


> Look at Enzo. His heart has been broken. Can a 100lm light manage to mend that broken heart?  Only time will tell.


A "little birdy" tells me it might not even get the chance...




adirondackdestroyer said:


> My only problem is the insane price increase for "Guaranteed Tint". I mean honestly, a $50 price increase on an LED that costs under $10 total. I can see how this was effective back in 2003 when a T bin Lux 3 was super rare, but now every $50 flashlight is using a Q5 WC.
> 
> For the price of the GT upgrade you can buy an entire flashlight! Am I the only one who sees this for what it is?


A great option for the obsessive crazies who have found an excellent tint to be very valuable to them? Unfortunately, I'm an obsessive crazy, so I'm getting hit with the $50 penalty. When the Clicky models were announced, I had to think long and hard about whether I wanted to spend an extra 50 for a higher output model... but there was never any doubt about getting GT, far more valuable to me, for my uses, in my experience.




paxxus said:


> I'm going to claim that NOBODY here understands why [the burst timer is] there.


I actually do have an idea on that, but it's just my theory so I've refrained from publicly discussing it here since-- oh, hi Jeff, your explanation looks mighty familiar, did you have some help with that?  Yeah, my idea is very similar to the explanation Jeff gave; I think it's a soft hand guiding us toward treating the lights in a sensible way that will prolong their life and runtime, but not entirely forcing us to. People tend to be thoughtless; they turn on a light, see how much it can put out, and leave it there, more is better. This light doesn't allow that, you have to think to get more light, thoughtlessness will automatically drop you back into sensible usage. Is this insulting to the user? Yeah, maybe; we all want to say "but that's not us, we're refined and knowledgeable users." That's true, for the most part, but this light isn't a custom job just for us, it's a production light intended for serious use by all kinds of people, so it's designed to function well with all kinds of people, even (maybe unfortunately) normal people. It's been my thought for a while that burst likely creates so much heat so quickly that banging it into the thermal limit each time probably isn't ideal for the emitter in the long run, though the protection still doing its job of keeping it at a basically safe temperature. So instead, we get a burst that is long enough for most of what we'd use a burst for, and if we want to push into territory that could deteriorate the emitter over time and shorten our runtime unnecessarily, we have to work at it a little. But.... I was only half right:


HDS_Systems said:


> The selection of parameters has nothing to do with emitter aging or the like. Our exceptional thermal path, thermal limiting and constant power drive take care of those issues very nicely. Utility is the primary parameter.


I see now that my guess about aging was incorrect; thank you for clearing that up, Henry. So, as with the one hour minimum on high limits, it's a matter of guiding the user towards efficient battery usage and the most effective use of the light in most real world situations.




luxlover said:


> I am not sure how to calculate the added distance covered by the higher output light...


Sure you are! Go back and check my email from about a month and a half ago, I gave you the percentage differences and throw calculations for every model (then) available.




orcinus said:


> A lot of people here are true flashaholics, and true flashaholics are also true gadget freaks. Gadget freaks love to have as much control as possible over their gadgets, and Clicky (by the sounds of it) is just the right kind of light for such people.


Absolutely true, but the Clicky is not intended to be just the right light for *only* those kinds of people.




karlthev said:


> I hope all have PAID for their clickies by this time--talk is cheap, REAL cheap! If you wish to support Ra (and I do), walk the walk folks! Lets see those greenbacks.


Since the kind retailers handling the preorders appear quite willing to give a refund at any time, it would seem that paying is also cheap. As I recall, Jeff was one of those who took their time in paying up; judging by the tear he's back on these days, you may not want to force that issue with him... 




karlthev said:


> Not to worry PeterK, it's clear to me paxxus is not familiar with Peter Gransee who had, at one time, affiliation with Henry Schneiker in the development of the Arc4+ when Gransee operated the original Arc company.


That, of all things, is clear to you? Paxxus' familiarity with Gransee, or lack thereof, is not evident in or relevant to his post; he simply comprehended what was being said correctly on the first try. Not cool to take such a nasty and condescending tone with someone to cover up your own mistake. Suck it up, move on, and let everyone forget about it; don't pile abuse on a newer member in hopes he might not be up on his history. He's a good member, show some respect.



paxxus said:


> PS.: Of course I know who "Peter Gransee" is


See, there we have it.



PeterK said:


> Hey Guys,
> calm down, please.
> If this was meant to introduce myself somewhere in this forum I'll do so
> the "Peter"


Don't worry about it, you did nothing wrong and were adequately clear.




luxlover said:


> Welcome to CPF and to the thread that was intended to share the beauty of the best little light east of the Rockies.


What are you trying to say about the west of the rockies? Your comment smacks of soci-- er, disloyalty! 




Daniel_sk said:


> The Clicky is the only flashlight I am looking forward to and I have been holding off buying any other flashlights for 2+ months now.


High five! :thumbsup: We're in the same boat.




wacbzz said:


> But that is kinda my point...how can somebody new to the HDS/RA line be expected to pay upwards of $200 for an EDC light and not know what the emitter is going to be? It's not like that question hasn't been asked in the previous 40 pages. It has. And it has received no reply.
> ...
> This is the only manufacturer that I have ever seen do this...like it's some sort of secret or something.


If we know exactly what the emitter can *do*, who cares what it *is*? LED racism, you might call it. If you must know, the C and Cn will almost certainly use the SSC and Osram Golden Dragon emitters, respectively, because those are what's in the Twisties. And disclosure of exactly what emitter is in a given light is actually a somewhat new thing in the flashlight world, I didn't see much of it before a couple years ago.



gswitter said:


> The cat *IS* out of the bag. It's an LED that puts a minimum of 140 measured lumens out the front on burst, 100 lumens out the front for one hour on max, and if you dig through the info you'll find the spec's for every other level. Name another manufacturer that gives as specific and accurate specs for their lights. Just because other manufacturers base their lights on LED models (with planned obsolescence as soon as the next bin of the LED is available) doesn't mean everyone has to follow suit. By not marketing the Clicky as an "SSC P4", "XR-E R2" or "Golden Dragon Plus", HDS/Ra maintains the option of replacing/upgrading the LED at anytime for any reason without having the rev the marketing literature or re-educating the sales channels.


Yes, very nice, what gswitter said.



wacbzz said:


> Umm...Surefire...Pelican...want me to name some more???


Surefire with their "specific and accurate," calibrated outputs?  Good luck with that argument.



wacbzz said:


> Did you mean _every other manufacturer_? How about you do some naming for me...name me one other manufacturer that DOESN'T disclose the emitter being used...


Well.... Surefire? Pelican? As far as I can recall, SF has only disclosed what emitter is being used on their latest lights. They may have pointed out when the L1 switched to a 3w emitter, but I haven't seen much detail beyond that. Where on the official site does SF tell us that the L1 is now using a cree? Official Pelican site, new lights section, where do they name the emitter used? Your own example companies fail you.




Dead_Nuts said:


> I haven't been around here all that long and maybe I'm naive. But all I really care about is that Henry's lights work -- every time, in every situation. That's what I am paying for.


:twothumbs No naivety there, you've got the right attitude.




orcinus said:


> Hey! Mine has a K2. I had to pay a hefty sum for it, but it's built as advertised


Well... the second one, at least. 




luxlover said:


> Is it my imagination, but is the locator flash in both the EDC and "competition's" lights about as low as level 1 (0.08lm)? If so, it could be a little brighter so that it can somewhat reflect off a high ceiling in a room where your eyes are dark adapted.


This is definitely a matter of preference. For me, the locator flashes are already too bright to use in the kind of darkness where they'd be useful. Every time I try to give it a chance, I quickly have to turn it back off because I'm being driven nuts by the entire area being lit up by a bounce reflection bright enough to walk around by, for a fraction of a second, every three seconds. But I'm mainly referring to the brighter NT with its less accurately calibrated low, don't remember how bad I found the HDS EDC version to be, except that even that was too bright to leave on. I'd really like to see a locator that's down more around tritium level.




tricker said:


> just trust a tradition of quality


This might be the one flashlight company where that is actually good advice. HDS products have earned the faith we have in them.


Ok I'll head back under my rock now.


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## karlthev (Oct 26, 2008)

Nah, I "took the bait" and it clearly isn't worth it! Your "thoughts" always entertaining--a spot on stage for you in the future....somewhere I'm sure! 

Karl


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## luxlover (Oct 26, 2008)

Zenster said:


> "If the LED fails or is a nasty color or a crappy beam, then it would be up to RA/HDS to make good on the product, not the maker of the LED."
> 
> "Henry has built a reputation that whatever LED he chooses, it will be right for the job."


Although component choice is important in a consumer product, I will agree with the portions of your post I quoted above. 

Henry knows that he is responsible for all facets of his lights' performance. We must ALL remember that Henry has always provided a full lifetime warranty and has had a reputation of honoring it, even in my case. I think that until Henry does us wrong, we should not treat him as if he did. All of my lights are great performers, so he is still a good guy in my eyes. "Innocent until proven guilty", is my way of treating people, and it works for me! :thumbsup:

Jeff


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## luxlover (Oct 26, 2008)

tricker said:


> Nobody buys a Mercedes-Benz and worries about who makes the engine Just trust a tradition of quality.


Ditto! Henry's lights have surely been at the highest level of quality since I know him. Until that changes, I will be on his side.


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## thermal guy (Oct 26, 2008)

I'm not sure why so many are having a hard time understanding why there is a time limit for the burst mode.Henry has said it many times.To push an led that hard for a long time "and you all know we would" you will beat the crap out of the led and have run times that would be measured in mere minutes.The set time limit seams right to me and should perform as Henry designed it for. To give you a BURST of light when you need it to see something you cant at your normal settings.Trust me as a hunter/camper i think this is going to be a great feature.Many times when in the woods at night or early morning i have had to switch from low to high very quickly to check something out and once i have seen what it was i needed to see would go right back to my lower level.It's going to work out just fine folks.Trust the man,I think he knows what he is talking about. DAN


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## paxxus (Oct 26, 2008)

thermal guy said:


> I'm not sure why so many are having a hard time understanding why there is a time limit for the burst mode.Henry has said it many times.To push an led that hard for a long time "and you all know we would" you will beat the crap out of the led and have run times that would be measured in mere minutes.


The 10 sec timer has nothing to do with protecting the LED, there's already the superior thermal management system to do that. Please see SaturnNyne's post #348 where he quite nicely summarizes his thoughts on the issue as well as including the quote from Henry's post which clearly indicate that "utility" was the driving force.


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## luxlover (Oct 26, 2008)

I guess that I'm just no good and dirty rotten scoundrel as well. Those are my GOOD points! 

This post is a great undertaking, proving to me that you take all of our comments seriously.

Obviously, the flamboyant manner in which I returned to this hallowed place is not a sign of my immodesty, but rather my commitment to a product in which I believe and a guy in whom I put my trust.

Waiting "with great trepidation" huh? Sounds serious!

I must admit, I am a guy with great enthusiasm when it comes to my lights.

Tell me it isn't so that Enzo will not be indulging in a Clicky?

No Sir, I have spoken to nobody whose first name starts with the letter "H", to help me form my opinion about the rational for the burst mode timeout. In fact, it was Henry's last "slap on the hand" post that showed me that runtime enhancement was his reason for the timeout, and not premature emitter aging due to overheating. While you and I were "only half right", what happened to the other half?

I found the email and have looked at your calculated increase in throw with each rise in level. It just shows that an increase in output gives a slight increase in throw. But that might matter to those who will be buying the 140Cn model.

The Clicky is surely the light "for the commoner." CPF members seem to worship every aspect of their lights, while laypeople just use them and don't want to know anything beside "how do I turn on this thing?" Sad but true. Henry must cater to the least common denominator as well as aficiondos like us, to make a living.

I will have you know, Sir, that I lived in Southern California for sixteen years before moving back to Crooklyn. My reference to the Rockies was a variation of the old west saying "east of the Rio Grande." Most of our international comrades wouldn't know what that means, but most would have heard of the Rockies. Am I exonerated of all guilt?

As hard of a time we are all having disciplining ourselves into not buying flashlights indiscrimately, some of us can control our primitive urge to buy every light that will fit into our domiciles.

Henry can conceal his emitter choices in his publications. But by looking down the barrel of our lights, we can tell what they are without reading about them.  This makes the entire mystery of "which emitter is he using" not so mysterious at all!!!

gswitter writes just like Henry. Maybe he IS Henry! :laughing:

SF has the most uncalculated all over the place output specs. I have seen. But their fine reputation is built on publishing conservative output numbers. I would much rather deal with a manufacturer like Henry, who gives us XXlm when he tells us he is giving us XXlm! I use my HDS lights as reference lights, when comparing the outputs of other lights.

Indeed, no manufacturer I know elaborates on their emitters. It is the word of mouth from each of us that informs the rest of us of their choices.

I am amazed that a one engineer organization like Ra/HDS, can nail a production light so well time and time again. It is because of this pattern, that I am not bothered by delays in "month" units. Consider many of the "one man show" manufacturers (modders?) on CPF who already have our money and have been delayed in delivering product in "year" units of time? Now that is outrageous!

In reference to the locator flash level that should not be impairing our dark adapted eyes, I ask....did somebody say "tritium?" I recently bought an HDS light with a SS lens ring and three tritium vials. Without a doubt, that solution is the best way I have found to locate my light in near total darkness. My advice is to make every attempt to deploy these vials in your HDS lights, and forget about the locator flash's intensity. Does anybody think that powernoodle's HDS light locator flash endurance test will last for 12 years, the half life of a tritium vial?

You are too refined to be living under a rock, so don't demean yourself in that way. :twothumbs

Jeff


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## iocheretyanny (Oct 26, 2008)

There is no reason why Burst can't be around 200 lumens since it only lasts 10 seconds.

I am kinda suprized that Novatac has been producing a 120 lumen light for over a year now, and clicky is only rated max 100 lumens. I do understand that it will run 100 lumens for 1 hour guaranteed - very nice, but since this is a programmable light with over 20 levels there is no reason i see - why for these who want or need more brightenss it is not provided.

Ideally with todays LED technology I would want the Clicky to give 200 lumens for 30 second boost.
Still a great and well engineered light - just the brightness levels it provides are behind the times.
Maybe in few months it will be offered with the MC-E? :naughty:




thermal guy said:


> I'm not sure why so many are having a hard time understanding why there is a time limit for the burst mode.Henry has said it many times.To push an led that hard for a long time "and you all know we would" you will beat the crap out of the led and have run times that would be measured in mere minutes.The set time limit seams right to me and should perform as Henry designed it for. To give you a BURST of light when you need it to see something you cant at your normal settings.Trust me as a hunter/camper i think this is going to be a great feature.Many times when in the woods at night or early morning i have had to switch from low to high very quickly to check something out and once i have seen what it was i needed to see would go right back to my lower level.It's going to work out just fine folks.Trust the man,I think he knows what he is talking about. DAN


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## Enzo Morocioli (Oct 26, 2008)

luxlover said:


> Tell me it isn't so that Enzo will not be indulging in a Clicky?



I will own a total of two Clickys.

Yes, it is a product of indulgence. But also, a product of purpose. 

Leave me out of the quibbles, please. I've come to my understanding of Ra, and will let the warm rays of light shine upon me when it is time.

Our words here can only do so much. Wield them attentively.


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## luxlover (Oct 26, 2008)

Enzo Morocioli said:


> I will own a total of two Clickys.
> 
> Yes, it is a product of indulgence. But also, a product of purpose.
> 
> ...


Two Clickys? What flavors?

There are neither quibbles nor squabbles here. Have you seen either in our midst? Every word I have thus far wielded, has been done with the greatest level of attentiveness. While they are NOT meant to rush Henry, they are made to communicate with him our issues with many of the "known unknowns!"

Jeff


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## orcinus (Oct 26, 2008)

SaturnNyne said:


> Absolutely true, but the Clicky is not intended to be just the right light for *only* those kinds of people.



No, but i've tried to explain why people here reacted the way they did. Because they (/we) _are_ those kinds of people


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## Unforgiven (Oct 26, 2008)

Continued


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