# Surefire: "AA light by the end of 2006"



## mykall (Apr 8, 2006)

:thinking: Hmmm...I'm curious are you?

Sure is interesting to hear that out of the horse's mouth since I was certain that SF wouldn't break from 123. 

MB


----------



## [email protected] Messenger (Apr 8, 2006)

Can't wait until they come out with the Ti aa rocket(was seen last at shot show)!!


----------



## BBL (Apr 8, 2006)

mykall said:


> Surefire: "AA light by the end of 2006"


was that a question or a statement? do you have any information about a SF AA light?


----------



## mykall (Apr 8, 2006)

BBL said:


> was that a question or a statement? do you have any information about a SF AA light?



What is in quotes in the title is essentially all I got from SF C.S.
regarding a coming AA light. They wouldn't elaborate.



MB


----------



## 270winchester (Apr 8, 2006)

Nice....

Of course if you are lying there will be a lynching party headed your way, MB.



(you just can't joke about things like this, next thing you know you are gonna tell me that BMW is introducing a line of Electric vehicles).


----------



## [email protected] Messenger (Apr 8, 2006)

270winchester said:


> Nice....
> 
> Of course if you are lying there will be a lynching party headed your way, MB.
> 
> ...


 
you'll probably get 80 jeers threads too (79 of which would be closed be sigman, empath, kiessling, or darel, or another administrator or moderator whom i forgot). Just don't tell us something along the lines of oil fields blowing up because of global warming (not that it couldn't happen :duh2: in the near future, provided that there would be any oil left...that was a bit off topic)


----------



## igabo (Apr 8, 2006)

Well they might have a greater market now.. Before I was a flashaholic, but when I still knew about Surefire, I said I'd never buy one because of the cost of 123A's.


----------



## whorton5 (Apr 8, 2006)

igabo said:


> Before I was a flashaholic, but when I still knew about Surefire, I said I'd never buy one because of the cost of 123A's.


 
That's interesting. I found this forum _because_ I was looking for 123A lights. The Air Force is moving me to North Dakota in July and I knew I needed the lithium batteries for cold-weather car emergency kits and for use when I was on the flightline.

All my old "regular" flashlights (Mags and Princetons) are NiMH rechargeables and sure don't comapre to the CR123As in any way. It will be interesting to see if SF comes out with something like that.


----------



## this_is_nascar (Apr 8, 2006)

I'd find it really hard to believe that SF would consider introducing an AA-based light. It goes against their business model.


----------



## Nubo (Apr 8, 2006)

IMO, with DC regulation, battery criteria become power density by volume, cost per hour, and shelf-life. NiMH AA beat the socks off CR123 in all but the last. With the advent of low self-discharge NiMH there wouldn't be much point to CR123. Regulation is the key.


----------



## mykall (Apr 8, 2006)

this_is_nascar said:


> I'd find it really hard to believe that SF would consider introducing an AA-based light. It goes against their business model.



It sure does seem hard to believe that Surefire would digress from 123, but I don't think it goes against their business model. They're in the flashlight (sorry I meant "illumination tools" ) business. Selling hair dryers would be an example of going against their business model.

MB


----------



## ScottyJ (Apr 8, 2006)

A AA surefire would surely get my attention.


----------



## roguesw (Apr 8, 2006)

Wait, surefire time projection, end of 2006, 
surefire time = normal time x 1.5 factor = probably 2007 
lol
des


----------



## Terry M (Apr 8, 2006)

ScottyJ said:


> A AA surefire would surely get my attention.


 

I agree!


----------



## this_is_nascar (Apr 8, 2006)

Like I said, I don't see it happening.


----------



## ABTOMAT (Apr 8, 2006)

During the whole SHOT show thing I heard several CPFers say that SF had talking about coming out with an AA light. No reason to doubt it.

Although the way SF is working these days "end of 2006" might be like Mag's "early 2006" for the LEDs.


----------



## carrot (Apr 8, 2006)

I wonder if CS was referring to the L4-like prototype that PK was showing off at SHOT Show '06? What I heard about it was that it had a telescoping body that was capable of accepting 2x123, 3x123, and 2xAA. Or maybe CS was referring to an AA version of the Ti "pocket rocket" that we haven't seen? I hope it's the latter since the "pocket rocket" is more interesting to me.


----------



## mykall (Apr 8, 2006)

Speculate all you like but here is what I got verbatim. I've removed the phone number because I've just got a feeling that leaving it in might very well trip the ever-so-sensative-these-days "CLOSED THREAD" button.

Here it is:

Sir,
Surefire will have a light out by the end of 2006 that will use the
AA batteries, no other information is currently available. If you
have any further questions please call us at_________. SureFire
strives to provide World class customer service to all of our 
customers.
SureFire technical supportMB


----------



## faco (Apr 8, 2006)

I would buy one instantly


----------



## [email protected] Messenger (Apr 9, 2006)

They're just 1 stp away from a AAA lux, which is comparatively speaking the frontier of luxeon lights (note that only modders, peak, tnc, and fenix have ever made these lights)


----------



## InfidelCastro (Apr 9, 2006)

An incandescent that runs off of two rechargeable AA NimH batteries and puts out at least 25 lumen would make my day!


----------



## mdocod (Apr 9, 2006)

me thinks surefire wants to start selling to the mainstream. me thinks surefire wants to be available at wallmart and target, next to the mags and maxfires, me thinks surefire wants to grow bigger, and the only way to grow bigger, is to develop products that reach out to the mainstream, in large department stores and hardware stores.

mark my words- Surefire AA style lights, and G2s, showing up at wallmart/target/lowes/home depot/etc by mid-2007.

mark them

please mark them, because i'll forget them, and I want to be reminded that I am the one who predicted this when it comes true!


----------



## InfidelCastro (Apr 9, 2006)

I sure hope so, because that would be a nice guilt free light. The only thing you'd have to worry about is replacing the lamp from time to time.

The price and short runtime of typical lights that use CR123A's, even at only $1 a pop are too cost prohibitive for me to use them on a regular basis as opposed to a light that takes typical or rechargeable or non-rechargeable cells like D's and AA's.


----------



## AR15Fan (Apr 9, 2006)

this_is_nascar said:


> I'd find it really hard to believe that SF would consider introducing an AA-based light. It goes against their business model.



At SHOT2006 several off the SF reps were wearing a little light on a neck lanyard tenatively named the "pocket rocket". Its a preproduction model, single CR123 based with an adapter to use a AA.


----------



## carrot (Apr 9, 2006)

I think lithium was the only way to get high outputs in a small package with incandescent. That's why SF has been using lithium since they started. With the newer more efficient LED technology, less power is needed, so alkalines could be sufficient in some applications.


----------



## AR15Fan (Apr 9, 2006)

mdocod said:


> mark my words- Surefire AA style lights, and G2s, showing up at wallmart/target/lowes/home depot/etc by mid-2007.
> 
> mark them
> 
> please mark them, because i'll forget them, and I want to be reminded that I am the one who predicted this when it comes true!



The big flaw i see in that is that there are some at Surefire that hate the G2, as they believe it brings down the brand value of the entire line. In fact there was recent debate over discontinuing the G2 altogather or at least raising the price. They settled on a slight price increase. But there are those in positions of power at S/F that want the G2 gone from the line up.


----------



## Solstice (Apr 9, 2006)

I don't want to disturb any Surefire fanboys by saying this (and I certainly respect any company with lifetime warranties and excellent customer service), but I wonder if Surefire has gotten the hint to make their lights more compact and pocket friendly in the realm of the average (non-LEO) consumer. Most of the AA luxeon lights we have seen thus far "get it" as to making the light small and sleek, but Surefire seems to like to "tacticalize" their lights and make them bigger and chunkier than they need to be. I personally like lights with a more muted "utilitarian" style. Don't get me wrong, some stylistic flair is welcome. I just don't think it should make the light bigger than it needs to be (ala the L1, or even the e1L).

I loved hearing about the capabilities of the Pocket Rocket; hopefully the production version (if it comes into fruition) will still be "Pocket" friendly.


----------



## Raven (Apr 9, 2006)

LOL to all those folks who said that SF would never release a AA light 

I guess Fenix got their attention after all 

Personally, I think they might have waited too long, since Fenix positioned themselves as the AA alternative to SF, it stands to reason that if SF had done this two years ago, then Fenix wouldn't have the market share and rep they have today.

Now SF has to play catch up, and Fenix will always beat them in price, since they're made in China.

So what will be SF's pitch; that they are made in America, which works on someone like me, but unfortunately seems to make little difference to a growing number of American consumers, and - of course - the foreign market, as I know SF sells their lights world wide.

No, I think SF screwed up and waited to long, and I think they're going to suffer for it.


----------



## Raven (Apr 9, 2006)

this_is_nascar said:


> I'd find it really hard to believe that SF would consider introducing an AA-based light. It goes against their business model.



If their business model involves making money then it doesn't go against it


----------



## Solstice (Apr 9, 2006)

Raven said:


> No, I think SF screwed up and waited to long, and I think they're going to suffer for it.



They might suffer a little tiny bit, but most people who buy Surefire do so because it's, well, Surefire. If they can come out with something that truly IMPROVES on the L1P type model (maybe throw an SF L1 style 2 stage switch on there, or the Pocket Rocket's rotary brightness dialing) and is backed by the Surefire "quality assurance" machine, then I expect many people will be singing SF's praises and within some time it will be "Fenix who?" Imagine the LRI Proton done the "right" way with a nice white high power emitter.


----------



## AR15Fan (Apr 9, 2006)

Raven said:


> LOL to all those folks who said that SF would never release a AA light
> 
> I guess Fenix got their attention after all



I was discussing the Fenix L1P with a buddy who works for Surefire the other day. He was complaining that the Chinese companies were always spying on them at the trade shows.

I asked him if the E1L was in response to the Nuwaii Q-III and he changed the subject.


----------



## Icebreak (Apr 9, 2006)

I'm slow and you guys are fast. Anyway, Don said this in the SHOT thread which is what carrot and AR15Fan where referencing about *two SF torches using AA*. Late, but here it is anyway: 



McGizmo said:


> The Ti pocket rocket and junior Beast are still in proto form so who knows on market availablity. SureFire time most likely but who knows how long that is these days!  The Ti PR also has a longer tube to allow for *single AA powering*. It is everything I personally could ask from a light its size and intent of use. PK welcoms after market attachments for it and I have some ideas for mounts for this cool light!!
> 
> ...snip...
> 
> ...



Here's a link to Data's photo: PK and rockets

The one on the left looks thinner than the one on the right.



[email protected] Messenger said:


> They're just 1 stp away from a AAA lux, which is comparatively speaking the frontier of luxeon lights (note that only modders, peak, tnc, and fenix have ever made these lights)


That would be a terrific step. I hope it happens.


----------



## RoyJ (Apr 9, 2006)

carrot said:


> I think lithium was the only way to get high outputs in a small package with incandescent. That's why SF has been using lithium since they started. With the newer more efficient LED technology, less power is needed, so alkalines could be sufficient in some applications.


 
Or Ni-MH if the light is used often. I personally won't touch alkaline AAs for anything over a LuxI.

But I'd imagine 2 ni-mh AAs would happily power a LuxV if given the right regulator.


----------



## a99raptors (Apr 9, 2006)

Surefire has an advertisement on one of the magazines and I quote:

"0300 Hours, Silent Alarm, Open Door, Rookie Partner...
Ready?"

Put yourself in that situation, and you want to be armed with the best. I am from Malaysia, and we get the Chinese flashlights here in night markets going for as low as USD$1. Believe me when I tell you the incandescents that go for USD$100 can't compete with the G2. And the Luxeons, they need circuits don't they? Question is, how much can you trust them?

(Sorry for stepping on anyone's toes around here, just my two cents)


----------



## Ras_Thavas (Apr 9, 2006)

If they do produce an AA light that can hang on the wall at Walmart and Target, then that might generate some interest from people (who otherwise might not know of Surefire) in their other line lights. Might be a way to expand their market share in all their products.


----------



## Solstice (Apr 9, 2006)

Ras_Thavas said:


> If they do produce an AA light that can hang on the wall at Walmart and Target, then that might generate some interest from people (who otherwise might not know of Surefire) in their other line lights. Might be a way to expand their market share in all their products.



Personally, I don't think Surefire is interested in doing this, even if they could. They seem to want to keep up their image as providing a "premium" line that can only be found at specialty stores and online. The G2 is in a pricerange that *could* sell at Target/Walmart, but I don't see Surefire doing it.

I expect that if and when a Surefire AA light does come out, and if it is luxeon/K2 based with multiple brightness settings, it won't be had for anything under $90-$100+


----------



## jbay (Apr 9, 2006)

It would be nice to see Surfire come out with an AA light . I just hope the switches don't break , there are no donut holes and it doesn't take 6 - 8 weeks to get a new light after you return the old one.


----------



## The Porcupine (Apr 9, 2006)

That would certainly get my attention! What little I have seen of the PR, looks very promissing indeed!


AR15Fan said:


> I was discussing the Fenix L1P with a buddy who works for Surefire the other day. He was complaining that the Chinese companies were always spying on them at the trade shows.


As good as the Fenix is, it's still made in China and if at all possible - (Not that it's easy these days!) - I don't buy chinese products for this and several other reasons!


----------



## leukos (Apr 9, 2006)

A SF AA light would not be the low end of their line if it is made out of titanium.


----------



## carrot (Apr 9, 2006)

I agree, Surefire is probably not trying to target the "low-end" market at all. It would ruin their "premium" image -- so if anything, they'd end up creating a spinoff company.

They'd better hurry up and release the PR. I'm itching for another Surefire light.


----------



## mykall (Apr 9, 2006)

I'd really like to see this light be a dedicated AA and not some adaptable telescoping gadget as has been described by some. What is hanging around PK's neck in that photo does indeed look like a dedicated aa. 

I really think that for entry into AA, SF should keep it simple and offer a solid regulated/boosted light that has a twistie, SF quality and could sell for $50-60. Preferably HAIII...the stainless/ti is nice but I'd prefer HA. Why not? The E1e can be had some places for as little as about $65.

And no, I don't think they need to be thinking "Walmart shelves" at this point. They've got enough pull and quality distributors to keep up their brand image. 

This light would also sove the "SF gift" problem. Namely the reservations anyone would have about giving a gift that mandates MO to obtain somewhat reasonably priced replacement cells, especially if the recipient is a non flashaholic.

MB


----------



## AuroraLite (Apr 9, 2006)

Finally!

Maybe from the design requirement or technology barrier has never allowed SF to explore the AA territory in the past--but with what seems to be more and more intended effort to going into Led lights, and with the technological advancement(more efficient driver, led and battery), it is never to late to enter the AA arena...


Anyway, as a future buyer what I wish to see:

-Al with HA3 or Ti

-Good regulation designed specifically for 2AAs (or alternative body for 123)

-Multi-level (for 3 or more levels) or Multi-led (like the upcoming kroma)

-brightness/led selection ring OR 2 stage switch(which ever cost less space)

-Full regulation for around/at least one hour on high for lux III, and approx 8+ hours on low(not so low that render the low useless), OR 20-30 min on high for lux V, and approx 10+ hours on low(multi 3mms?)

-Long and Strong clip

-Standing tailcap(checkout some custom made A2 standing tailcap here on CPF  )

-Compact and Slim profile(what's the point of going AA if the bezel/body is really wide as U2?) for pocket non-holster/low-key use

-Good balanced Reflector (anywhere between 20-25mm?)

-Water proofness to few meters

-Non-faulty switch/clickie, no donut or less bad tint


Anyway, I hope this venture into something fruitful and best of luck to SF....


----------



## Sixpointone (Apr 9, 2006)

If SureFire does come out with a Light that uses AA Batteries, I'll certainly consider adding it to the other SureFire Lights that I own.


----------



## ANW (Apr 9, 2006)

InfidelCastro said:


> An incandescent that runs off of two rechargeable AA NimH batteries and puts out at least 25 lumen would make my day!


 
Yeah a E2O style light that ran on two AA or a A2 verision that ran on on 2 AA or 4 AA's would make me buy a few. I'd love a regulated verision of the E2E but runs on AA's and an A2 that's bright, pocketable, waterproof, very duralable and runs on AA's or AAA's.


----------



## [email protected] Messenger (Apr 9, 2006)

ANW said:


> Yeah a E2O style light that ran on two AA or a A2 verision that ran on on 2 AA or 4 AA's would make me buy a few. I'd love a regulated verision of the E2E but runs on AA's and an A2 that's bright, pocketable, waterproof, very duralable and runs on AA's or AAA's.


 
I have a hunch that surefire is going to be leaving those models alone, where's the Ti pocket rocket?!?!? It ould be a killer light if it had a TiNi and multiple brightness modes!! Or if it cae with a nice Ti clip to go with it (i haven't seen those on any non user modded lights, yet) . I can't wait to see what aa or aaa (when they are not vaporware) lights they'll come out with! I have yet to replace my fenix l1p with something more "rugged".


----------



## mykall (Apr 9, 2006)

Does anyone have a decent picture of the "Pocket Rocket" ?

MB


----------



## skunked (Apr 9, 2006)

I also heard from SF customer service that something like the pocket rocket MIGHT be around at the end of 2006.


----------



## tvodrd (Apr 9, 2006)

There are a number of pics of a couple PR protos here. (They're hanging from PK's neck.) Happy hunting, and don't forget the check page 1 too.

Larry


----------



## edakoppo (Apr 9, 2006)

mdocod said:


> me thinks surefire wants to start selling to the mainstream. me thinks surefire wants to be available at wallmart and target, next to the mags and maxfires, me thinks surefire wants to grow bigger, and the only way to grow bigger, is to develop products that reach out to the mainstream, in large department stores and hardware stores.
> 
> mark my words- Surefire AA style lights, and G2s, showing up at wallmart/target/lowes/home depot/etc by mid-2007.



I'd tend to doubt it, for one reason: SFs are made in the US. To get the kind of deep discounts that Walmarts and Targets (I don't know the other chains and couldn't hope to guess) demand in order to carry a product, manufacturing would have to move overseas into higher-volume facilities. The only way to do that is either to split the line (have the higher-end lights made here. which still isn't practical) or dump the entire idea of US manufacture altogether.

That said, I've been drooling over the Pocket Rockets ever since the pic was posted in the SHOT thread.


----------



## Size15's (Apr 9, 2006)

At SHOT Show (2006) the "PocketRocket" samples were twist-on with fully regulated, fullly adjustable brightness from zero to maximum output.
The high-end Titanium flashlight with one of its features being that it can using a body extender be powered AA batteries as well as CR123A batteries.
(I think they want to use SF123A batteries rather than CR2 batteries so Titanium is desired to keep the diameter as thin as possible.

I did not get the impression that this ability to use AA batteries was an attempt at "mass-market" or "lowering the brand" or any such thing. The opposite in fact - the PocketRockets appeared to be jewellery around the necks of beautiful young ladies (PK was the exception to the rule  ).

The ability to use the AA batteries was just a feature - a bonus and many CPFers may decide not to give the "PocketRocket" they purchase to a beautiful young lady for many CPFers may want to keep the bonus for themselves.

That was the impression I got anyway. Like as been said - SureFire are keen to release lots of products this year and a flashlight that can accept the AA battery is one of them.

Quite how it will turn out is unknown perhaps even to SureFire at this stage.

Al


----------



## cave dave (Apr 9, 2006)

I don't think they are going to show up at Walmart, but they have shown up at Galyans, Bass Pro Shops, etc. I imagine the 123 are a stumbling block for sales though.


----------



## greenLED (Apr 9, 2006)

this_is_nascar said:


> I'd find it really hard to believe that SF would consider introducing an AA-based light. It goes against their business model.


PK showed us a prototype "modular" tube that would take 1230's and AA's at the SHOT party. He did hint something along those lines would go into production, but did not give a time back then.

Also, the "pocket rocket" proto that we saw at SHOT will have optional AA tubes. The pocket rocket is a deviation from their regular line, but something I gathered (again, from PK at the party) is that SF was going to get involved in that line of products. From what I saw, I don't expect $30 SF's running off AA, though. 

The timeline for these was "whenever" (PK's words).


----------



## idleprocess (Apr 9, 2006)

The prototype pocket rocket lights demonstrated at SHOT were designed for a CR2 cell or a AA cell with an extender. Twist on/off with two different styles of lanyard attachment - both clever and functional. Ti body components; very nice and potentially quite expensive.

I don't know how the design has evolved since SHOT.

Paul was ambivalent about using CR2s. Their OD is closer to AA cells than a 123A cell. A 123A-capable body might require a sleeve to accomodate AA cells, but with clever design, that could be a part of the AA extender.

AA cell | CR2 cell | 123A cell

I'm not sure why Surefire would want to mass-market their products. Even their least-expensive product - the G2 - costs more than the average person wants to pay; and uses lamp assemblies that cost more than 50% of what the light itself does. Not a winning proposition at Wal-Mart, and you need to provide huge quantities of product to stock a big-box retailer.


----------



## :)> (Apr 9, 2006)

Size15's said:


> At SHOT Show (2006) the "PocketRocket" samples were twist-on with fully regulated, fullly adjustable brightness from zero to maximum output.
> The high-end Titanium flashlight with one of its features being that it can using a body extender be powered AA batteries as well as CR123A batteries.
> (I think they want to use SF123A batteries rather than CR2 batteries so Titanium is desired to keep the diameter as thin as possible.


 
Sweet! Fully adjustable, multiple batter types and fully regulated. Just more stuff to buy. 

-Goatee


----------



## tvodrd (Apr 9, 2006)

What Al, GreenPUNK (  ), and Idle said! If these things show in Ti, grab your wallet! Look for them in jewelry stores, not Wallmart! I think this is an experiment for SureFire. (I wonder what might have provoked pk into doing that? :thinking: )

Larry


----------



## mykall (Apr 9, 2006)

greenLED said:


> PK From what I saw, I don't expect $30 SF's running off AA, though.
> 
> The timeline for these was "whenever" (PK's words).



Not at all. But the time has come. I don't believe that anyone who believes in SF would have any problem paying more than twice that for a well engineered solid (and on first run KISS) light that that accepts AA and DELIVERS in true SF colors. One only need experience the output from the Fenix or Triton to believe what 1XAA and an appropriate binned Lux can do.

It's *inevitable*, but Wally will *NOT* be a consideration!

MB


----------



## InfidelCastro (Apr 10, 2006)

carrot said:


> I think lithium was the only way to get high outputs in a small package with incandescent. That's why SF has been using lithium since they started. With the newer more efficient LED technology, less power is needed, so alkalines could be sufficient in some applications.




Perhaps, but I would sure love to see a Surefire incadescent that runs on NIMH rechargeables. You would think they would be able to supply the current for at least a MN02 (E20) type bulb. Heck, alot of the newer flashlight bulbs like the maglite magnumstar and dorcy xenon that run on alkalines draw around 1 amp.


----------



## Flakey (Apr 10, 2006)

i have to agree with solstice on this one, i think alot of surfire buyers are buyers for life. If surefire comes out with an AA that is good they will buy it. I think between the "other" brand and surefire many will choose surefire even if they are more expensive and late to arrive at the market. infact that is the WHOLE of surefires business, people that are willing to pay more for a better prouduct and a seriously kick *** warranty. I don't really think that this goes against their bussiness model, in fact i think it is more proof that surefire isn't trying to sell 123's they are trying to sell lights, really good lights. (im not a fanboy lol and i think many surefire lights including the M6 have some pretty nasty flaws but ill be damned if they dont make a good product) 

.02 

Blake


----------



## Luna (Apr 10, 2006)

this_is_nascar said:


> I'd find it really hard to believe that SF would consider introducing an AA-based light. It goes against their business model.



Give the power to be found in lithium-ion or NiMH AAs, I find this a smart move. It at least gives the possible option of using alkys as a last resort (at the loss of performance)


----------



## BentHeadTX (Apr 10, 2006)

I think the Surefire AA light has to do with the recent FAA ban on commercial shipping of lithium primary cells on aircraft. Imagine 100 special forces guys go to camp X for a year.... with three Surefires each. Oh yeah, and they need to take the batteries with them to last a year. 

Simple math would signify at least several thousand lithium primary cells. Mix that with an FAA ban on commercial shipments, military aircraft tend to carry bombs etc and I can see why Surefire is nervous. Personally, I would not like to fly on a plane that had thousands of lithium cells mixed in the luggage. Although banning lithium primary cells on military aircraft has not happened, I can see it coming down the road rather quickly. 

<looking at my collection of "desert lighting"> No lithium primaries, AAA/AA NiMH cells and a few RCR123 lithium-ions... Good to hear that Surefire is finally putting out something that does not require CR123A lithium batteries. My vote is they "have to" instead of "thinking it is a neat idea." 

Imagine a special Surefire combat light with the A123 Systems 3.3V "safe" lithium-ion cells. Considering I don't have a Surefire and refuse to buy lithium primary only lights... maybe a Surefire is in my future... maybe.


----------



## KevinL (Apr 10, 2006)

Can't wait for SF's newest light. Adjustable power in a tiny formfactor - I'll compromise on the twist switch for this one.

Ti is going to make it tremendously expensive though... but I think I'll HAVE to have it anyway, watch out for Surefire to relieve me of yet another load of money. Maybe my KL1 will get its retirement after all.


----------



## xochi (Apr 10, 2006)

I was gonna buy a mercedes but then I looked at Hyundai....

Surefire has alot of quality control issues but they are still leagues above the fenix in quality. Fenix , while good, is undoubtedly chinese (no offense but I'm way too familiar with "made in china" being printed on very low quality goods). 

The "pocket rocket" blew McGizmo away (from shot show posts I've seen) and if it really impressed Don then unless they price it out of my reach, I want one. IIRC, the pocket rocket is a contiuously variable light that works by twisting the bezel. Like using a knob for volume control on a stereo, this approach seems to make the most sense of any multilevel light I've seen. It just makes sense. There are pictures of these hanging from Paul Kims neck and they are tiny!

If they come out with this light and it's Ti, there will be no comparison with anything else. I'll buy one in a heartbeat.


----------



## Solstice (Apr 10, 2006)

I understand you get what you pay for, but I hope that SF decides to make a HA-III version for the "rest" of us that couldn't fathom paying $300 for a light. Around $100 would still be a premium price, but it is much easier to stomach, especially considering this light seems designed to be more practical than tactical.


----------



## Kiessling (Apr 10, 2006)

I am all hot about the pocket rockt, and especially in ti. But AA cells ... pfffh ... frankly, I don't care for those. I really hope it will come with good old lithium cells 
bernie


----------



## greenLED (Apr 10, 2006)

I don't expect the PR to be priced any lower than a couple of hundred bucks.


----------



## Size15's (Apr 10, 2006)

SureFire ship pallets of SF123As all over the place - usually where civi flights don't go! (or where DHL flights etc do). I don't get the impression SureFire are moving away from the SF123A. The ability to use the AA battery is an optional feature not a change in standard.

Perhaps if there is enough demand stainless steel could be used instead of Titanium? I get the feeling that Aluminium alloy would require an increase in wall thickness although that could be hunger - sometimes I miss-read my feelings...


----------



## Kiessling (Apr 10, 2006)

I doubt pk would use ti just because it is cool, so Al's version sounds good to me ... especially since this would mean that the light is as small as possible .... :thumbsup:
bernie


----------



## Frenchyled (Apr 10, 2006)

No Size 15's.. I want one in Titanium, please....


----------



## Lee1959 (Apr 10, 2006)

It is interesting that SF is now talking an AA light at the same time that Maglite is getting ready to bring out a new line of LED based lights. Perhaps they see or have heard something we haven't and are afraid Maglite is going to jump out front of them in the market with something spectacular. 

It is of course speculation but if I was running Maglite, why not try and take a bite out of Surefires highend market share at the same time you bring out LEDs to re-shore up your own everymans low to medium end market share. The timing is interesting if nothing else.


----------



## InfidelCastro (Apr 10, 2006)

I would like one in titanium as well.

Why would a titanium one be $300??? Titanium is not gold, it's just titanium..


The ones around his neck looked like single cell versions.. I'd go for a two cell. I don't know how you guys can hold these one cell lights in your hands, and my hands aren't that big..


----------



## metalhed (Apr 10, 2006)

Since Surefire's main markets are military and law enforcement (not civilian sales), I can't help but wonder if a AA model might not be aimed at a 'mass-market'...the military.

Look at how many lights have been sent to Iraq by BatteryStation and the 'Operation Enlightment' effort. And many have been smaller, easy-to-carry lights, too.

Perhaps Surefire sees a potential 'sweetspot' in sales of such a light to the military. Easy to carry at all times, easy to find replacement batteries for, infinitely adjustable to allow for long run times in emergencies...sounds perfect for standard duty issue, doesn't it?

Think about the profitability of a light that can be sold in the hundreds of thousands of units...at maximum mark-up. That's probably a vastly more profitable scenario than cutting quality, price, and margins just to grab a little shelf space from Mag and Inova.

Just my two cents tho'...


----------



## greenLED (Apr 10, 2006)

Lee1959 said:


> It is interesting that SF is now talking an AA light at the same time that Maglite is getting ready to bring out a new line of LED based lights. Perhaps they see or have heard something we haven't and are afraid Maglite is going to jump out front of them in the market with something spectacular.


SF's market niche is completely different from Maglite's. IMO, SF has nothing to fear from Mag (although I see what you mean, assuming they share a portion of the target audience).


----------



## Solstice (Apr 10, 2006)

InfidelCastro said:


> I would like one in titanium as well.
> 
> Why would a titanium one be $300??? Titanium is not gold, it's just titanium..



We'll see. Hey, I'm all for titanium, but somtimes it seems that it is used partially to justify exhorbinant prices (ie $60 for a keychain split ring, etc.). Very few titanium lights have ever been offered around a $100 price point, and that is what I'm hoping for (a man can dream). This is Surefire, after all- its not like a $200-$300 light is somthing new from them. 

On another topic, I don't think Surefire is losing any sleep over what Mag's LED lines would do, but it would be interesting if Mag finally stop resting on their laurels and started designing some "up to date" products. Its facinating how their brand name still signifies quality to the average consumer.


----------



## [email protected] Messenger (Apr 10, 2006)

InfidelCastro said:


> I would like one in titanium as well.
> 
> Why would a titanium one be $300??? Titanium is not gold, it's just titanium..
> 
> ...


 
If it ends up being way too expensive, surefire could always just fall back on HA aluminum, or something remotely like titanium (ie stainless steel with thick TiNi coating)


----------



## Raven (Apr 10, 2006)

edakoppo said:


> I'd tend to doubt it, for one reason: SFs are made in the US. To get the kind of deep discounts that Walmarts and Targets (I don't know the other chains and couldn't hope to guess) demand in order to carry a product, manufacturing would have to move overseas into higher-volume facilities. The only way to do that is either to split the line (have the higher-end lights made here. which still isn't practical) or dump the entire idea of US manufacture altogether.
> 
> That said, I've been drooling over the Pocket Rockets ever since the pic was posted in the SHOT thread.



Maglite sells at Walmart, and they're MIA.


----------



## mykall (Apr 10, 2006)

Solstice said:


> On another topic, I don't think Surefire is losing any sleep over what Mag's LED lines would do, but it would be interesting if Mag finally stop resting on their laurels and started designing some "up to date" products. Its facinating how their brand name still signifies quality to the average consumer.



Mag is probably waiting for SF to come out with a focusing light so all those lawyers who replaced their engineers can earn their paychecks  .

MB


----------



## edakoppo (Apr 10, 2006)

Raven said:


> Maglite sells at Walmart, and they're MIA.



So what? IIRC M*g is a much larger company than SF. To hire the kind of personnel for volume that Target or Walmart would need would be cost-prohibitive given US labor laws.


----------



## Size15's (Apr 10, 2006)

I did not get the impression SureFire were even considering entering such a market sector that Maglite rules. The so-called "PocketRocket" is the exact opposite of mass-market low-price - it's a luxury item!


----------



## RoyJ (Apr 10, 2006)

Agree with you guys, the *LAST* thing on SF's mind was probably the MiniMag.

Think of it as Porsche announcing a hybrid (hope never happens) after Toyota announcing the Prius. Same technology, sure, but Porsche is probably not thinking about the Prius stealing 911 sales.


----------



## mykall (Apr 10, 2006)

RoyJ said:


> Agree with you guys, the *LAST* thing on SF's mind was probably the MiniMag.
> 
> Think of it as Porsche announcing a hybrid (hope never happens) after Toyota announcing the Prius. Same technology, sure, but Porsche is probably not thinking about the Prius stealing 911 sales.



Well let's just hope they don't put too many rubys in Dorothy's lil' red slippers, 'cause I'd like to be able to 'ford one o' these.


----------



## [email protected] Messenger (Apr 10, 2006)

[email protected] Messenger said:


> If it ends up being way too expensive, surefire could always just fall back on HA aluminum, or something remotely like titanium (ie stainless steel with thick TiNi coating)


 
 just forgot to add, that would still cost a bundle (add $50 to the price of a stainless steel version if it has TiN)


----------



## :)> (Apr 10, 2006)

metalhed said:


> Since Surefire's main markets are military and law enforcement (not civilian sales), I can't help but wonder if a AA model might not be aimed at a 'mass-market'...the military.
> 
> Look at how many lights have been sent to Iraq by BatteryStation and the 'Operation Enlightment' effort. And many have been smaller, easy-to-carry lights, too.
> 
> ...


 
Agreed. Military operations do not only require "tactical" brightness. Many mundane tasks can be performed with a light like the Fenix or better yet, like the "Pocket Rocket"

-Goatee


----------



## mykall (Apr 11, 2006)

In that case I doubt Ti would be a requirement either 

MB


----------



## Techmedic (Apr 11, 2006)

I have read a good number of threads written by medics/soldiers/gunners, etc... that spoke volumes of the small AA powered light that saved their butts when under fire. So, I do tend to agree with the concept that SF would go with an AA powered light for this purpose. Offer them in different LED colours, two housing types, and voila! Sales of at least 100K units to start.


----------



## Rando (Apr 11, 2006)

The brightness of a "tactical" light may be great for police or SWAT, but the military doesn't want it. To the military, tactical means not giving your position away with a handheld spotlight. At the very least, adjustable power. Just a thought.


----------



## greenLED (Apr 11, 2006)

you guys've seen the "new" SF helmet light, right? 
Low light.


----------



## xochi (Apr 11, 2006)

I see surefire as a flashlight company that values quality and innovation. It just so happens that military type orgs are the markets that will spend the money for those products. 

LEDs have exponentially expanded the potential market for an EDC "personal illumination tool". The photon and it's clones pretty much are the mainstream EDC of choice. Despite leaving much room for improvement the Photon really was leagues above any other small edc. Just about every tiny incandescent light is a joke by comparison (I'm talking personal lights here). 

The Photon brought new people into the market. What if you could do that again? Every guy who carrys a pocket knife will want a pocket rocket. Many guys who won't carry a pocket knife will want a pocket rocket. Guys who see guys with pocket rockets will want pocket rockets. The pocket rocket is the high end Surefire answer to the personal accesory that at least 5% of the population would adopt if they were really aware of current performance levels and the convenience of having a light readily available. I think that the Pocket Rocket in a way, is an answer to filling the same niche as the Arc AAA and the technology has matured enough to really exploit the market. 

Titanium does help to justify a higher price. Even though arc sold a bunch, many balk at it's 40 dollar price tag and no doubt the Pocket Rocket will cost more. Tiny things need exotica like titanium (larger than life reputation) to help justify expense.

Besides, I don't know how big sales of li 123's from surefire are but I'd bet they are pretty freaking huge, huge enough to support a special surefire market of 3.2 volt AA's.


----------



## mykall (Apr 12, 2006)

xochi said:


> .....
> The Photon brought new people into the market. What if you could do that again? Every guy who carrys a pocket knife will want a pocket rocket. Many guys who won't carry a pocket knife will want a pocket rocket. Guys who see guys with pocket rockets will want pocket rockets. The pocket rocket is the high end Surefire answer to the personal accesory that at least 5% of the population would adopt if they were really aware of current performance levels and the convenience of having a light readily available..



I'm curious as to just what kind of performance the AA "Pock Rock" actually has. And is the Pock Rock from shot show the AA light SF has in mind for 2006 or is it something else they've got in works that we don't know about? I guess they like to keep us in suspense .


MB


----------



## Frenchyled (Apr 12, 2006)

Please PK...if you read this thread...and I know you read it sometimes ...tell us more about this "pocketrocket" we haven't had the chance to go to the shot show....but we need more informations.. please 

Thanks


----------



## [email protected] Messenger (Apr 12, 2006)

Frenchyled said:


> Please PK...if you read this thread...and I know you read it sometimes ...tell us more about this "pocketrocket" we haven't had the chance to go to the shot show....but we need more informations.. please
> 
> Thanks


 
what frenchy said


----------



## InfidelCastro (Apr 14, 2006)

[email protected] Messenger said:


> If it ends up being way too expensive, surefire could always just fall back on HA aluminum, or something remotely like titanium (ie stainless steel with thick TiNi coating)




I would rather have titanium than stainless steel. Titanium is almost as strong as stainless steel, and considerably lighter. Almost as light as aluminum.


----------



## mykall (Apr 14, 2006)

InfidelCastro said:


> I would rather have titanium than stainless steel. Titanium is almost as strong as stainless steel, and considerably lighter. Almost as light as aluminum.



Titanium is rather soft as far as metals go though, isn't it?

MB


----------



## idleprocess (Apr 14, 2006)

mykall said:


> Titanium is rather soft as far as metals go though, isn't it?
> 
> MB


Titanium is somewhat difficult to machine. It's almost as hard as most steels. It masses slightly greater than aluminum.


----------



## [email protected] Messenger (Apr 14, 2006)

idleprocess said:


> Titanium is somewhat difficult to machine. It's almost as hard as most steels. It masses slightly greater than aluminum.


 
it is almost as light aluminum, but still, it is relatively soft compared to stainless steel when it comes to hardness, however, it is still much better with corrosion resistance, but i would still have to say that HA aluminum would be more cost effective, maybe, if they wanted something super cost effective and abbrasion resistance with the least weight, nitrolon would be a decent choice, although it would look awkward for a $100+ surefire.


----------



## mykall (Apr 14, 2006)

idleprocess said:


> Titanium is somewhat difficult to machine. It's almost as hard as most steels. It masses slightly greater than aluminum.



But is it as hard as aluminum? I believe that lead would mass greater than either but is also much softer than either. 

MB


----------



## Solstice (Apr 14, 2006)

[email protected] Messenger said:


> it is almost as light aluminum, but still, it is relatively soft compared to stainless steel when it comes to hardness, however, it is still much better with corrosion resistance, but i would still have to say that HA aluminum would be more cost effective, maybe, if they wanted something super cost effective and abbrasion resistance with the least weight, nitrolon would be a decent choice, although it would look awkward for a $100+ surefire.



I'd love to see some sort of polymer 1 AA light that I wouldn't have to worry about when I shove it into my pocket with metal objects. I think there are 2 issues that prevent it- one you already stated; it would be hard to justify making the light cost a bundle of money. The other is that we have already seen that AA batteries can be used to drive current luxeons at relatively high levels- a small polymer light using an LED driven at these levels would be hard to heat sink. Sure there is the Streamlight 4AA and 3C, but these are much larger lights with room for internal heat sinks under the plastic. Even the L1P gets warm, meaning the body is a heat sink- something the polymer body couldn't be.

A bit OT, but I'd still love to see a luxeon based 1 AA polymer light with a simple twist head that is crafted to be absolutely as small and light as possible and that underdrives the LED at around the level as the Jil DD. Heat wouldn't be a problem and the light would be long-running with a smooth white beam.


----------



## InfidelCastro (Apr 15, 2006)

mykall said:


> But is it as hard as aluminum? I believe that lead would mass greater than either but is also much softer than either.
> 
> MB




Of course. Titanium is much harder than aluminum. That's why they make combat aircraft out of titanium and not aluminum.


----------



## ViReN (Apr 15, 2006)

at local target / wallmart / etc... stores... I imagine a $300 2AA Light Next to $30 Mini Mag 2AA Light with similar specifications, except for the surefire 'tactical' switch

I wonder how many would buy them? (except the Flashaholic's) and MiL, GoV guys


----------



## TORCH_BOY (Apr 15, 2006)

If SF could remove the price fixing and make it affordable, 
I would be in for one AA light


----------



## [email protected] Messenger (Apr 15, 2006)

Maybe surefire could take a look at my thread on cerafuse on aluminum for flashlights  (BIG HINT!!), maybe they'll consider it, that would be a big change for materials on their pocket rocket, it would look better than HA nat but be cost effective as well, let alone be more durable than any other material they have  ( I think).


----------



## mykall (Apr 16, 2006)

[email protected] Messenger said:


> Maybe surefire could take a look at my thread on cerafuse on aluminum for flashlights  (BIG HINT!!), maybe they'll consider it, that would be a big change for materials on their pocket rocket, it would look better than HA nat but be cost effective as well, let alone be more durable than any other material they have  ( I think).



They might, but just about any product takes development time and they've got a timeline promise to keep .

MB


----------



## Brighteyez (Apr 16, 2006)

Titanium is stronger than either aluminum or steel, and because it can be machined thinner with the same or greater strength, objects made from it are generally lighter than similarly machined aluminum counterparts. It does tend to be brittle though.



InfidelCastro said:


> Of course. Titanium is much harder than aluminum. That's why they make combat aircraft out of titanium and not aluminum.


----------



## InfidelCastro (Apr 17, 2006)

Brighteyez said:


> Titanium is stronger than either aluminum or steel, and because it can be machined thinner with the same or greater strength, objects made from it are generally lighter than similarly machined aluminum counterparts. It does tend to be brittle though.




You're correct, titanium IS stronger than steel. I used to think that to be the case for a long time, but some know-it-all convinced me a short while back that steel is in fact stronger than titanium.

Anyways, Google is a wonderful thing.

Seems to fluctuate between people saying "Titanium is 3 times stronger than steel." to "Titanium is 30% stronger than steel."


----------



## xdanx (Apr 17, 2006)

Maybe CR2 but not AA.


----------



## BentHeadTX (Apr 17, 2006)

InfidelCastro said:


> You're correct, titanium IS stronger than steel. I used to think that to be the case for a long time, but some know-it-all convinced me a short while back that steel is in fact stronger than titanium.
> 
> Anyways, Google is a wonderful thing.
> 
> Seems to fluctuate between people saying "Titanium is 3 times stronger than steel." to "Titanium is 30% stronger than steel."



The way titanium has always been explained to me is this way. Titanium is as strong as a mild steel (not the good stuff like Chromoly tubing etc) at about half the weight. 

By WEIGHT, titanium is stronger than steel but not by volume. Two AAA bodies of the same wall thickness, the alloyed steel one would be stronger but the titanium one would be lighter. 

Why not a Surefire AA with HA-III aluminum head/copper insert for cooling and a carbon fiber wound over titanium barrel. Throw a ceramic lug on the bottom for serious flashlight bling.


----------



## InfidelCastro (Apr 18, 2006)

BentHeadTX said:


> By WEIGHT, titanium is stronger than steel but not by volume.




Ok. That might be the cause of the confusion why some people say titanium is stronger and others say steel is stronger. Interesting.


----------



## scuba (Apr 18, 2006)

I have a link with 2 close-up pictures of the prototypes (Shots from someone else's website). Thay were taken during the 2006 ShotShow. Can I post the link here or is it against the rules (hotlinking or something like that)?


----------



## BentHeadTX (Apr 18, 2006)

InfidelCastro said:


> Ok. That might be the cause of the confusion why some people say titanium is stronger and others say steel is stronger. Interesting.



I've run across the Titanium VS Steel debates concerning bicycle frames years ago. Some folks have duplicated chromoly-magnese steel frames (Reynolds 753) in titanium and created a very flexible frame that failed. Once they increased the wall thickness, the titanium frames held up but the weight jumped up also. The Ti frame was still lighter but only by a small amount. The way around that was to increase the diameter of the titanium tubing to increase stiffness so they could drop the wall thickness. This explains why aluminum bikes have such large tubes. Increase diameter by 10% and stiffness jumps 33% until you hit a ratio of 50:1. At that point, you have an easily crushed beer can so there are limits. 

I would love a 3/2.5 Titanium recumbent bicycle frame ($$$$) as 6/4 is too brittle, costs way more and a pain to machine. If I ever get one, a titanium helmet light to match would be great... but only then.


----------



## ginaz (Apr 18, 2006)

there is hardness and there is toughness. glass is very hard. hard things have no flex, no give. they shatter. toughness is not hardness. beef jerky is very tough. it flexes and bends but it is hard to rip through. very different properties. titanium is tough, it does not get as hard as steel. in some cases toughness is stronger and in others hardeness is stronger. it all depends on what you are measuring and how you are measuring it. for more than i could ever type, go to bladeforums.com


----------



## [email protected] (Apr 18, 2006)

scuba said:


> I have a link with 2 close-up pictures of the prototypes (Shots from someone else's website). Thay were taken during the 2006 ShotShow. Can I post the link here or is it against the rules (hotlinking or something like that)?



Hotlinking is linking a picture that is not on your host to show in your post. Posting a clickable link is always allowed.


----------



## McGizmo (Apr 18, 2006)

Considering all steel alloys under a lump description of steel and all Ti alloys and tempers as titanium is akin to equating apples to oranges because they are both fruit. The tensile strength of Ti can go from 40k psi. to in excess of 200k psi. depending on alloy and treatment. Various alloys of steel also have a very wide range of physical properties in terms of tensile strength, hardness and what have you. Aluminum alloys too can be selected based on a significant degree of variations in their physical properties.

It is one thing to assign a relative value to a metal in contrast to another but relative terms in absolute seem meaningless to me and often very misleading!! Hard, soft, brittle, elastic; such terms need qualification by numbers or relative comparisons me thinks. 

Now one of Ti's advantages in a flashlight, IMHO, is its nobility. :nana:

The Ti pocket rockets PK had at SHOT were noble from stem to stern.


----------



## scuba (Apr 18, 2006)

Here are some photos that I found and posted in the Trade show forum:

http://www.fotop.net/kevinchau/pkpartyss06/DSCF0909

http://www.fotop.net/kevinchau/pkpartyss06/DSCF0907


----------



## Robban (Apr 18, 2006)

scuba said:


> Here are some photos that I found and posted in the Trade show forum:
> 
> http://www.fotop.net/kevinchau/pkpartyss06/DSCF0909
> 
> http://www.fotop.net/kevinchau/pkpartyss06/DSCF0907


I just went through all of the pictures there. Could someone hand me a tissue? There seems to be some clear liquid dripping from the side of my mouth.

I wish I could go there sometime, but, it's a wee bit far away to just swing by :/


----------



## [email protected] Messenger (Apr 18, 2006)

:kewlpics:


----------



## mykall (Apr 18, 2006)

McGizmo said:


> Hard, soft, brittle, elastic; such terms need qualification by numbers or relative comparisons me thinks.
> 
> Now one of Ti's advantages in a flashlight, IMHO, is its nobility. :nana:
> 
> The Ti pocket rockets PK had at SHOT were noble from stem to stern.



Well, thinking REALTIVELY and w/o math I get:

Nobility=$$$

I hope this little light doesn't end up too noble 

MB

P.S. You've got a "noble" light of your own Don, and I don't remember it
being that much more than your HAIII.


----------



## Illum (May 1, 2006)

AA? ROFL

Sounds like Surefire is downgrading its technology and, hey, if this goes well , they might have to create a new xenon bulb with lower impedence.

AAs can only give out so much at once...
While 123s are...ALL AT ONCE


----------



## Mags (May 1, 2006)

AHHHHH PICTURES ARENT WORKING JUST WHEN I REFOUND THIS THREAD AHHHH!!!! can someone please rehost them I must see em I must.


----------



## Illum (May 1, 2006)

Mags said:


> AHHHHH PICTURES ARENT WORKING JUST WHEN I REFOUND THIS THREAD AHHHH!!!! can someone please rehost them I must see em I must.



Calm down, take deep breaths, drink some iced water, and tell me, calmly, how to rehost a prehosted page...

Slow [selective] learning newbie here


----------

