# Can you identify this LED?



## xcmtb83 (Nov 6, 2011)

Hello all,
Long time browser first time poster here! I am really looking forward to tapping into all of this knowledge that I have seen on here. I am also looking forward to giving back to other newbies once I have learned a lot of the overwhelming lingo associated with CPF. So lets get the ball rolling!

I am wanting to get my feet wet in the LED modification world so I thought I should start out fairly simple. I have a Black Diamond Spot headlamp that I have taken apart trying to find out what kind of emitter has installed so that I can replace it with a newer brighter more efficent model. I Googled the only numbers "WGP2" on the back of the heatsink but came empty handed. I am asking for your help in identifying this emitter via attached photos. Once identifed my next question is what are my options for upgrade? Is it upgradable or is it too propritary? Can I get longer run times AND more lumens? BTW anyone know the factory lumen rating on this partiular model?







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Thanks to all and looking forward!


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## Imon (Nov 7, 2011)

The center LED appears to be a CREE XR-C not really up to par with the XP-G or even XP-E or XR-E.


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## nein166 (Nov 7, 2011)

In the Cree line of emitters WG usually indicates tint. And P2 could be the Bin

I think Imon has it right 
XR-C as there is 1 central bond wire and the die is only 2 rectangles not 4 bars so its not XR-E
The color of the light, is it warm, nuetral or crisp white? That will tell you where the P2 bin would fit in the charts
But if so your looking at about 67 emitter lumens at 350ma 

I'd have to suggest upgrading to a XR-E because of the optic/reflector. XR based optics don't work great with a XP-G, you'll get light out but the beam isn't likely to be as good. It may be all flood or have a hole in the center. Its because of the optic lens on the XR based LED itself puts out a radiation pattern 90degrees and the XP-G is 125degrees so they need different profile optics.


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## mvyrmnd (Nov 7, 2011)

You're both right 

That's a XR-C. WG would be the tint (which is just cool white), and P2 the flux bin.

I agree the simplest upgrade would be to swap in a XR-E R2. You should get a significant increase in brightness.


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## gambler (Nov 7, 2011)

Im not familiar with that either..


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## xcmtb83 (Nov 7, 2011)

Thanks for all replies!

Dimensionally is my XR-C identical to an XR-E? Will I be generating more heat by doing a swap? It appears that an XR-E R2 is going to give me the same cool white temp but 114 lumens instead of the original 67 lumens. Are there any rule of thumbs in the LED world like for instance...it takes lets say 4X the amount of lumens for something to appear twice as bright to the human eye? I only ask because I can only doubt that it is that cut and dry so to speak. Thanks.


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## saabluster (Nov 7, 2011)

xcmtb83 said:


> Thanks for all replies!
> 
> Dimensionally is my XR-C identical to an XR-E? Will I be generating more heat by doing a swap?


You will be generating less heat if all you do is swap the LED out to an XR-E. The XR-E and XR-C are exactly the same package so no worries there. Depending on how hard the LED is driven you most likely will see a decrease in throw with the swap even though the XR-E will be putting out more light.


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## xcmtb83 (Nov 7, 2011)

Does the lack of throw as you described a product of differing viewing angles between the LEDs?


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## saabluster (Nov 7, 2011)

xcmtb83 said:


> Does the lack of throw as you described a product of differing viewing angles between the LEDs?



The XR-E LED chip has about double the surface area as the XR-C but most likely not twice the lumens at the current I imagine that light runs at. Therefore the XR-C will have more surface brightness than the XR-E. For some more info you can see this thread where I try to make it understandable.


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## jashhash (Nov 7, 2011)

Unfortunately the housing material of this head lamp is plastic which puts some limitation on how much brighter it can be. High power LED's need a significant amount of heat sinking which means if you wanted to modify this head lamp you would need to cut a hole in the back side and install a more beefy heat sink.


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## bshanahan14rulz (Nov 8, 2011)

Or you could use a more efficient LED and it might put out the same amount of light in a more spread out pattern and last a little bit longer on one set of batteries


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## xcmtb83 (Nov 8, 2011)

How about another XR-C but instead of a P2 Bin use a P4 bin? Wouldn't this be a slight increase in lumens and the same throw capabilites?


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## saabluster (Nov 8, 2011)

xcmtb83 said:


> How about another XR-C but instead of a P2 Bin use a P4 bin? Wouldn't this be a slight increase in lumens and the same throw capabilites?



Sure you can do that. Both lumens and throw will increase but the results may be a little underwhelming. I doubt it will be enough of a change for you to feel like it was worth it. My suggestion would be to go another route. Instead of trying to make more lumens make better lumens. A neutral or warm LED stuck in there will make that light far more pleasing to use. I think you would be happier with the result than just a tiny bit more light.


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## deadrx7conv (Nov 8, 2011)

You can get more run time if you install a more efficient LED and run it at a lower power setting by modifying the driver. 
But, as you move up to bigger LEDs, they tend to be more floody. So, you'll have to research optics/lens.... to see how you can benefit with/without that reflector. Or, test several LEDs with your reflector to see what you like best. Cree XPG XRE XML, SSC P4, ... are worth looking into. You might also decide that you'd want more CRI, or something more neutral for better quality of light at the same level. 

The real question is, do you want the best throw, the most light, improved run time, more flood, or better quality of coloring(neutral/warm higher CRI)? 

I wouldn't bother going from a P2 to P4 XR-C. I'd go straight to the XR-E R2 and seriously consider the XPG R5/S2/S3 or XML T6/U2. 

I'd also consider replacing those 5mm(?) LEDs with the Nichia NSDW570GS-K1 or a top bin Cree C503D-WAN.


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## WeLight (Nov 8, 2011)

I would go a different way, use Cree XPC on a star, so dropin, will have similar throw characteristics(CD/LM) optically speaking and you can get bins like Q4

Cheers
Cutter Electronics


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## xcmtb83 (Nov 8, 2011)

*WeLight*- What do you mean XPC on a star? Please explain, or anyone else is they know.

*
**deadrx7conv* - Wouldn't going with an XR-E force me to modify the housing because the new emitter would be 7.0x9.0mm instead of the current 3.45x3.45mm emitter? 

Assuming no housing modication would be required would the XR-E R2 leave me with less throw? It has been stated above that I would have less throw but more light...thoughts? 

If I went with an XML it also appears larger, it is 5.0x5.0mm not 3.45x3.45mm. I am thinking that in order to not mod the housing I will have to stick with an XP-G, XP-E or XP-C model. Am I correct? I would like to keep this mod as simple as possible I guess and that includes not messing with the driver (not quite ready for that venture yet).  

I see that Cree has the S2 and S3 bins listed on their website as well as seeing you mention them here...does anyone know if they are even available yet?

If the R5, S2 and the S3 bins are all available why would you recommend anything less than the best? I only ask because it makes me think that I am overlooking another variable or something to be considered when going up in bins.

I appreciate you bringing up many considerations and tradeoffs essentially to think about. Quite thought provoking for a newbie like myself! To answer your question..."The real question is, do you want the best throw, the most light, improved run time, more flood, or better quality of coloring(neutral/warm higher CRI)?" Basically I just want to take advantage of the improvements in the Cree LED world that have occured since Black Diamond originally spec'd this light out. Initially I thought it would be a lot of fun to show off how much brighter my headlamp is (post mod) than an identical model that a friend owns. He has the exact same headlamp so the next time we are out camping the whole time I could act baffled as to why my light is brighter as I would not tell him of the modification. This would involve stating "why is your light so dim man? It looks like mine is a lot brighter but it can't be brighter, these are identical lights" then offer to swap him batteries only for the same result...blah blah you get the point. So I am not looking for crazy brightness or a crazy overhaul of the headlamp just something that is noticably brighter than a stock unit.


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## Th232 (Nov 8, 2011)

xcmtb83 said:


> What do you mean XPC on a star? Please explain, or anyone else is they know.



A star is a metal cored PCB, you can see in the last picture on your first post, the star shaped thing that the LED is attached to.




xcmtb83 said:


> Wouldn't going with an XR-E force me to modify the housing because the new emitter would be 7.0x9.0mm instead of the current 3.45x3.45mm emitter?
> 
> If I went with an XML it also appears larger, it is 5.0x5.0mm not 3.45x3.45mm. I am thinking that in order to not mod the housing I will have to stick with an XP-G, XP-E or XP-C model. Am I correct? I would like to keep this mod as simple as possible I guess and that includes not messing with the driver (not quite ready for that venture yet).



Where are you getting this information from? As Saabluster has said, the XR-C (what you currently have) and the XR-E have the same size package. The XR package is 7 x 9 mm, while the XP package is 3.45 x 3.45 mm. You do not have an XP package in your headlamp.




xcmtb83 said:


> Assuming no housing modication would be required would the XR-E R2 leave me with less throw? It has been stated above that I would have less throw but more light...thoughts?



Saabluster's correct again, there will be less throw.



xcmtb83 said:


> I see that Cree has the S2 and S3 bins listed on their website as well as seeing you mention them here...does anyone know if they are even available yet?
> 
> If the R5, S2 and the S3 bins are all available why would you recommend anything less than the best? I only ask because it makes me think that I am overlooking another variable or something to be considered when going up in bins.



R5, S2 and S3 bins for what LED? For the XP-G, R5 and S2 are available in several places (Cutter comes to mind), haven't seen S3 around though. "Best" is also a variable term, as you noted in your next paragraph tint and CRI will also play a part. Warmer LEDs are generally less efficient than their cooler counterparts, and so top out in lower flux bins. Ditto for high CRI LEDs. On the other hand, I've never seen an XR-C in R5 bin.


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## deadrx7conv (Nov 8, 2011)

See pictures in these two threads:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?268463-identify-XPG-vs-XPC
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...ison-(XP-G-XM-L-XP-E-P7-SST-90-SST-50-CSM-360)

Finding some specific bins is like finding a Unicorn. Plenty of stores to look at for the rarer bins. Check out the sister forum marketplace and buy/sell section. Cutter might have the XPG with various bins and mounting options. Dealextreme has a bunch of XML T6's and U2's. Ebay has various. Ledsupply has various choices. And there are always those online electronic stores like newark, digikey, mouser....

Measure that WGP2 star that your LED is mounted to. I think you have plenty of room there for almost any LED that you choose that can run at that power level(I'm guessing around ~1w).

If you want to baffle the friend, go with the XML in cool white with the highest bin(U2) that you can find. Make sure its premounted to a similarly sized star so that you can just swap them. 

If you want a little more light, that is not tiring on the eyes at night, find something leaning toward neutral. IMO, a neutral light that shows more colors and less cool white bleaching is more impressive. XPG R4 or XML T6


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## xcmtb83 (Nov 8, 2011)

I was getting my dimensions from http://www.cree.com/products/xlamp.asp . Am I not reading the table correctly? *Please* correct me if I am wrong. I know that I do not have an XP-G package. I was only mentioning the XP-G, XP-E and the XP-C models because they are the only packages that I could find in my supplied link that were dimensionaly identical to my current XP-C emitter.


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## xcmtb83 (Nov 9, 2011)

MODERATOR - PLEASE DELETE THIS POST


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## xcmtb83 (Nov 9, 2011)

For instance what are some mounting options? Any pics for example?


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## Th232 (Nov 9, 2011)

xcmtb83 said:


> I was getting my dimensions from http://www.cree.com/products/xlamp.asp . Am I not reading the table correctly? *Please* correct me if I am wrong. I know that I do not have an XP-G package. I was only mentioning the XP-G, XP-E and the XP-C models because they are the only packages that I could find in my supplied link that were dimensionaly identical to my current XP-C emitter.



You do not have an XP-C. As per what everyone else has said, you have an X*R*-C package. The XP (3.45 x 3.45 mm) package is square while the XR package (7 x 9 mm) is rectangular, and the LED in your headlamp is rectangular and matches perfectly with the image in the XR-C's datasheet.

Therefore swapping an XR-C to an XR-E will not require you to make any changes to the housing. Swapping to an XP-C/E/G will.


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## saabluster (Nov 9, 2011)

WeLight said:


> I would go a different way, use Cree XPC on a star, so dropin, will have similar throw characteristics(CD/LM) optically speaking and you can get bins like Q4
> 
> Cheers
> Cutter Electronics



My recommendation to him is partly based on my perception of his technical limitations at this time. Remember that he is just starting out. If he went with the XP-C he would then have to find some way of adjusting the focus. Not to mention that in a headlamp better color rendition is of far greater worth.


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## saabluster (Nov 9, 2011)

xcmtb83 said:


> I appreciate you bringing up many considerations and tradeoffs essentially to think about. Quite thought provoking for a newbie like myself! To answer your question..."The real question is, do you want the best throw, the most light, improved run time, more flood, or better quality of coloring(neutral/warm higher CRI)?" Basically I just want to take advantage of the improvements in the Cree LED world that have occured since Black Diamond originally spec'd this light out. Initially I thought it would be a lot of fun to show off how much brighter my headlamp is (post mod) than an identical model that a friend owns. He has the exact same headlamp so the next time we are out camping the whole time I could act baffled as to why my light is brighter as I would not tell him of the modification. This would involve stating "why is your light so dim man? It looks like mine is a lot brighter but it can't be brighter, these are identical lights" then offer to swap him batteries only for the same result...blah blah you get the point. So I am not looking for crazy brightness or a crazy overhaul of the headlamp just something that is noticably brighter than a stock unit.



You are just going to have to trust me a little here. You have a lot of questions that can't all be answered at once. The learning will take some time but in the meantime just trust me on this suggestion. I think you should get the XR-E Q3 Flux 5C Neutral from here. Their site is a bit of a pain to find stuff for the uninitiated so look for a drop box next to this "*Select XRE Led by FLUX(Light Output) Bin in Warm White or Neutral colour Temperatures Bins:*" and then select "Q3 Flux 5C Neutral". Before you add to cart look at the box just above that which says "*For LED Mounted on Single Metal Core PCB: *"and select "20mm Star MCPCB". Now you can add to cart. I suggest you order two just in case you mess up one. And if you manage to pull it off without a hitch your buddy will be asking for you to mod his so you will have one ready. :thumbsup:


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## WeLight (Nov 14, 2011)

saabluster said:


> My recommendation to him is partly based on my perception of his technical limitations at this time. Remember that he is just starting out. If he went with the XP-C he would then have to find some way of adjusting the focus. Not to mention that in a headlamp better color rendition is of far greater worth.



If you going to try and replicate what he has with greater output I dont see another led with the same CD/Lm other than XPC doing that, it is basically an XRC in a higher brightness package, same basic focusing, die to optic ratio is almost the same which is what will provide the relationship with the optic, rendering is another issue but XPC is available in HI CRI


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## WeLight (Nov 14, 2011)

xcmtb83 said:


> *WeLight*- What do you mean XPC on a star? Please explain, or anyone else is they know.
> 
> your initial image show XR on Star 20mm PCB, the Cree XPC can be supplied in exactly the same PCB configuration
> 
> ...


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## saabluster (Nov 14, 2011)

WeLight said:


> If you going to try and replicate what he has with greater output I dont see another led with the same CD/Lm other than XPC doing that, it is basically an XRC in a higher brightness package, same basic focusing, die to optic ratio is almost the same which is what will provide the relationship with the optic, rendering is another issue but XPC is available in HI CRI



Look at the design and intent of the light. If he goes with an XP-C I believe he will have a hard time getting the beam to look good. The reflector appears to center the LED and with the XP-C this design feature will be gone. Also with a headlamp I have found throw is not nearly the most important thing. My recommendation will give him a very pleasant beam that is also very easy for a novice to accomplish.


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## xcmtb83 (Nov 14, 2011)

I think I will be going with an XR-E Neutral White Q4 100 lm emitter order code: XREWHT-L1-0000-00CE4...that is if I can find 2 of them. Are the three smaller LEDs 5mm? Are there way too many sized of LED to assume that the three are 5mm? It was mentioned that I could replace those as well. Thoughts? BTW thanks for everyones patience.


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## Th232 (Nov 14, 2011)

xcmtb83 said:


> I think I will be going with an XR-E Neutral White Q4 100 lm emitter order code: XREWHT-L1-0000-00CE4...that is if I can find 2 of them. Are the three smaller LEDs 5mm? Are there way too many sized of LED to assume that the three are 5mm? It was mentioned that I could replace those as well. Thoughts? BTW thanks for everyones patience.



Good choice on the XR-E. As for the smaller LEDs, 5 mm refers to the diameter of the dome, so the easiest way is to just get out a ruler and measure it. It's either that or 3 mm, so it's easy enough to tell the difference.


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