# Some R123 li-ion comparison tests



## Raymond (Apr 20, 2008)

past few weeks, I bought a lot of flashlight related gear, including li-ion batteries, hobby charger and a DMM with a memory.

With that equipment, I've done some tests on the batteries that I own. I'll present the results here.

Currently I only have 2 AW cells and a pair of dealextreme SKU11670 li-ion batteries. Altough the testresult of that DX cell is pretty good, I can't recommend it. One of them expired after only 2 cycles of use.
I have a pair of the grey trustfires in the mail, and will update the results here when they arrive. I also plan to buy a few r123's from both batteryjunction and batterystation to complete the comparison.

I plan to do discharges at 250mA, 500mA and 750mA, and also take measurements of the charge curves (because a low internal resistance will result in faster charge times, when the correct CC/CV charge protocol is used).
I chose those discharge rates because when I checked the current draw on my lights that support R123's, they showed similar current draws. My fenix P3D on turbo draws almost 700mA, on high it's a little less than 300mA for example.
Also, lower modes give current draws in the 50-100mA region, maybe I'll test those too. But I'm going to do those last, since it will take about 10 hours to complete a single test.
The batteries were charged on my ultrafire WF-138 charger, which charges to about 4.17 volts.

*Dimensions of the cells (L*W in mm):*
Batterystation: 34.4*16.7
DX11670 (white TF):35.9*16.7
DX8683 (grey TF):35.8*16.6
DX3273(ultrafire):35.8*16.8
KAI4512:34.5*16.5
AW:34.3*16.6

I'm fully aware that testing only a few cells of each brand is not really statistically relevant, but testing more than that requires more cells, which gets expensive in a hurry.







Comparison of the different battery types:




















The AW's are the correct 34mm in length, the DX is longer, but does not offer a greater capacity, although voltage remains higher under load.

Let me know what you think, and if you have any suggestions for the tests I'm doing 

*Added 26-apr:*
Dealextreme 11670 cycle test, as per Silverfox's suggestion:
_for images, see 11-may edit_
There isn't a logical change in performance, as you would expect. Because of the time involved in these tests, not all tests are done with the same amount of rest for the cell. My opinion is that the more rest the cells gets between cycles, the better the performance. Cycles 2,4 and 5 are done with about the same amount of rest, and also show similar performance. The cell is currently doing cycle #6, with little rest after cycle #5, so I'm curious what the result will be.

*Added 28-apr:*
1A discharge test graph added above.
Interesting results. DX11670 manages a higher voltage under load, DX8683 manages similar voltage compared with the AW cells, but higher overall capacity.
I'll try to complete the cycle test on the single DX SKU11670 asap and also do the lower mA tests on my new DX SKU8683 batteries.

*update 11-may:*
Completed the tests on the batteries I currently have: AW, BatteryStation, trustfire DX-8683, trustfire DX-11670.

Notable results: The white trustfire (DX sku11670) gives the highest voltage under load, but not the greatest capacity. The grey trusfires (DX sku8683) give the same voltage under load as the AW's, but higher capacity. 

*update 26-may:*
Added results for  kaidomain SKU 4512
Seems to perform best under higher loads, where it holds it's voltage better than most other batteries. Total capacity exceeds AW cells, but not as good as grey trustfires. Also, size is smaller than the trustfires, just slightly larger than primaries and AW/batterystations. They fit in a fenix P3D. This makes them the best rechargeable choice for that light, imho.

*update 24-june:*
Added results for Ultrafire 880mAh
These cells are about the same size as the trustfires, and too big for a fenix P3D.
They also perform very poorly (as was expected from the different reports on the board). If you're looking for cheap chinese cells, the grey trustfires are a much better choice. 

The AW's and batterystation have the same size, and will both fit a fenix P3D, whereas the trustfires are a few mm taller, and won't fit a fenix P3D. Of these two, the AW's perform a little better, they give a higher voltage under load, and have similar capacity.

*update 3-jan 2009:*
I've been away for awhile. I just read a remark about the KD4512, it appears that you'll receive a different battery then the one I've tested:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2631868&postcount=50



DX-11670 cycle tests:















Conclusion: After 10 cycles, capacity remained mostly the same. I've got the impression that the amount of time between tests makes more difference than the amount of tests done on the batteries. This makes consistent testing impossible for me, because I have to do the tests manually. After the 10 cycles, this trustfire still provides the highest voltage under load. So if you're looking for a cell with this characteristic, I can recommend this one (based on this single sample, at least)


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## Raymond (Apr 21, 2008)

I updated my post with graphs @ 250mA and 750mA.

I also have a set of 3 graphs which graph the performance of a single cell under various loads. Is there interest in seeing those graphs?

The batterystation R123's have been ordered, and I found out that batteryjunction doesn't carry 3.6V tenergy R123's. Are there other popular R123's which you would like see tested?

Thanks for looking


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## IMSabbel (Apr 21, 2008)

Would be nice to see them driven a bit harder.
They _should_ be able to deliver more than 1C on their rated capacity...

Also, i would really like a comparison with those Iron-Phosphate Cells (just to verfy my "felt" impressions that those have hardly half the energy)


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## Raymond (Apr 21, 2008)

I can test them at 1amp, that's as high as my charger will go. I'll add those tests to my to-do list. 

I'm not familiar with the iron phosphate cells, can you give some info on these cells?


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## jirik_cz (Apr 21, 2008)

Raymond thank you for your tests! You can get lithium iron phosphate (LiFePo4) cells here http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=125353


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## SilverFox (Apr 21, 2008)

Hello Raymond,

Your results are similar to mine. These cells seem to have a very hard time making it to 600 mAh of capacity. It looks like the best you have been able to get so far is 565 mAh.

Any ideas why the spread in the AW cells?

If you could, I would like to see another comparison on the DX cell after 10 charge/discharge cycles. Charge at 500 mA, then discharge at 1000 mA for 10 cycles, then charge at 500 mA and discharge at 500 mA.

Then you can show a comparison graph of your initial discharge at 500 mA compared to the same cell after 10 cycles. I am interested in how much the capacity and mid point voltage drop off during cycling.

Tom


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## VidPro (Apr 22, 2008)

if you got an extra 20$ laying around, test a BS li-ion cell. specifically the yellow and red thing.

in RUNTIME test (only) i got WAY more time from them than the DX cells, but the DX cells, i might have got a bit over 500ma (calculated from runtime) , they were pretty sad.
when i got the BS cells it was SO different that i stopped there, assuming that was probably as good as i was going to get.

i only have 3 lights that use tiny cells like that, and some use primary in them anyways, so i wouldnt outright recommend the BS, due to lack of experience with them. I would love to see more testing of them.


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## Raymond (Apr 22, 2008)

I'll think about the LiFePo4 cells. They seem a bit expensive and for specialist use.

Vidpro: I ordered a pair of the batterystation R123 batteries that can be found on this page (with the CPF discount). 

Also, there are a pair of the grey trustfire cells underway to me from DX. If they're anything like their grey TF 18650 brothers, I have high expectations from them.

Silverfox: I don't have a clue why the AW cells differ so much, but it's consistent, so I don't think it's something in my setup.

You've mentioned the cycle tests before, and I think it's a good idea. I've started the cycle tests this evening and will post a report on it when it's finished 10 cycles.

Have you done any cycle testing on R123 batteries? What where the results?


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## SilverFox (Apr 22, 2008)

Hello Raymond,

Yes, I have run some cycle testing, but the results were very poor. One batch lost 20% of their capacity in 10 cycles, and another batch lost 20% in 20 cycles.

I sent the test data to the manufacturer and they are trying to figure out what is going on.

I believe there is some test data on R-CR123 cells in this thread.

Tom


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## Raymond (Apr 22, 2008)

What brand did you test?

I've read that thread. I was very impressed by the powerizer results, but they're unprotected cells. And comments on this forum have made me want to stay clear of unprotected cells.


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## SilverFox (Apr 22, 2008)

Hello Raymond,

I only checked out a limited sample of cells. It could be that I received some cells from a bad batch. I am waiting to hear back from the manufacturer before pursuing this further.

Tom


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## Raymond (Apr 24, 2008)

First few cycles are complete. I give the cell some rest between cycles, so it will take a while.

For now, I see that there's not much difference in discharge cycles, but the charge cycles start to take longer and there's less charge going into the cells. Strange thing is that the discharge capacity stays roughly the same. That doesn't make much sense, it must be an error in my charger. Luckily, it won't affect the graphs, because those measurements are made with a DMM and don't rely on the charger.


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## Raymond (Apr 26, 2008)

my grey trustfire R123's arrived today. 

First discharge test at 1A is very promising: 600mAh, which is more than the other batteries at lower discharge rates, and almost 100mAh than the others at the same discharge rate.
So far, it seems as if they perform just like their grey 18650 brothers: very well!


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## Raymond (Apr 26, 2008)

start post updated with the following info:

Dealextreme 11670 cycle test, as per Silverfox's suggestion:










There isn't a logical change in performance, as you would expect. Because of the time involved in these tests, not all tests are done with the same amount of rest for the cell. My opinion is that the more rest the cells gets between cycles, the better the performance. Cycles 2,4 and 5 are done with about the same amount of rest, and also show similar performance. The cell is currently doing cycle #6, with little rest after cycle #5, so I'm curious what the result will be.

Edit: just added discharge #6. That's another theory out the window  Performance seems to settle around the middle curves, with two outliers: the first discharge @1A being the top one and discharge #3 being the bottom one


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## LumenHound (Apr 26, 2008)

Great info Raymond. Thanks for taking the time and effort to test and post your results. 
Very informative.

Were the AW cells the 750maH high current ones?
If so, and if time permits, could you please post a 1000mA and 1125mA draw chart on those AW cells? The 1125mA chart is what I am most intersted in.


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## Raymond (Apr 27, 2008)

I've already done a 1000mA test, but haven't updated the graphs yet (maybe later today). I can't do a 1125mA test, because I test the batteries with my charger, and it can discharge at max 1000mA.

The AW batteries I have are the ones AW offers for sale now. Silverfox has done some tests on rechargeable 123's with higher currents. It's linked in the sticky topic in this forum.


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## LumenHound (Apr 27, 2008)

Raymond said:


> I've already done a 1000mA test, but haven't updated the graphs yet (maybe later today). I can't do a 1125mA test, because I test the batteries with my charger, and it can discharge at max 1000mA.
> 
> The AW batteries I have are the ones AW offers for sale now. Silverfox has done some tests on rechargeable 123's with higher currents. It's linked in the sticky topic in this forum.


Thanks Raymond. 
Looking forward to the chart update.
I purchased a pair of the black wrapped "high current" protected RCR123 AW cells a year ago and had AW send them to directly to SilverFox for testing. 
It will be interesting to see if your results are similar to the results Tom got from that early batch.


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## Raymond (Apr 28, 2008)

Also added in the starpost:





DX SKU11670 cell manages the highest voltage under load. DX SKU8683 cells manage similar voltage under load as the AW cells, but deliver highest total capacity.


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## Raymond (May 11, 2008)

I've completed the tests of the RCR123's. The graphs have been updated with the new info. All batteries have been tested at 250,500,750 and 1000mA.

Notable results: The white trustfire (DX sku11670) gives the highest voltage under load, but not the greatest capacity. The grey trusfires (DX sku8683) give the same voltage under load as the AW's, but higher capacity. 

The AW's and batterystation have the same size, and will both fit a fenix P3D, whereas the trustfires are a few mm taller, and won't fit a fenix P3D. Of these two, the AW's perform a little better, they give a higher voltage under load, and have similar capacity.

I've also ordered a pair of KD protected 16340's, which claim to have 625mAh real capacity today. I'll perform tests on them when they arrive.

I also finished the cycle tests on the white trustfire. I'll update the graphs on this cell later tonight. After 10 cycles, capacity remained mostly the same. I've got the impression that the amount of time between tests makes more difference than the amount of tests done on the batteries. This makes consistent testing impossible for me, because I have to do the tests manually. After the 10 cycles, this trustfire still provides the highest voltage under load. So if you're looking for a cell with this characteristic, I can recommend this one (based on this single sample, at least)


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## Raymond (May 11, 2008)

Editted first post with updated graphs of the cycle test.


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## bessiebenny (May 11, 2008)

Thank you for such awesome tests and graphs Raymond.

From what I can see, it seems the white trustfires are the best batteries overall.
Hopefully it wasn't a case of luck with the ones that you received. hehe.
I'm tempted to get them now but I'll await for your KD RCR results. =)

oh. I noticed that one of them died already for you?

With some of my grey RCRs, I had to take off the protection PCB as it died.
Without it, it still charges fine and works properly. Just no protection. =P


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## jirik_cz (May 11, 2008)

Great work, thanks! :thumbsup:
I have white trustfires and AW cells. And I get exactly the same runtimes with them in my lights. Unfortunately Trustfire cells are too long for Fenix lights (tested in P2D & TK10).

Edit: see also my other post about trustfires after a couple of months :shakehead
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/2632540&postcount=54


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## Raymond (May 11, 2008)

yeah, that seems to be the only downside of the trustfires: a certain percentage dies after only a little use. On the other hand: they're cheap enough to order an extra pair. They have a warranty, but it seems like a lot of effort for a $2,50 battery.

The white trustfire has the highest voltage under load, but the grey ones have the biggest energy capacity. It depends on what you're looking for in a battery. Of course, sometimes they just don't fit and you have to go for an AW or batterystation cell, because they have the same size as a normal primary R123.

After these tests, I'm not comfortable recommending the AW cells. They have the right dimensions and from the reports here on CPF they seem dependable enough (less risk as with the trustfires of receiving a bad cell). But they're expensive and don't perform all that well.


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## bessiebenny (May 11, 2008)

Yeah. I always thought AW cells were miles ahead coz everyone here uses them and recommends them.
But looking at your test, I'm better off with just the cheap grey Trustfires! I'm sure many will be surprised.

Let's see how the KD RCR's go against your comparative testing. I can't wait. hehe.

I'll also do my own less-controlled tests using my flashlights as a discharger and measuring run-time tests. =)


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## Raymond (May 11, 2008)

I think the AW's get recommended because of their safety, consistency and of course because AW is a CPF member. But performance-wise, they're not the best. I don't think the difference can be completely explained by the difference in size. I'm not the only one with these results. Silverfox has done some RCR123 tests and the AW's voltage drops a lot under higher loads.

I have a $8 credit at DX, maybe I'll order some more trustfires, to see if they perform the same as the trustfires I already have. I'm not going to order any ultrafires, I've read too many bad reports about them.


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## Raymond (May 12, 2008)

I ordered another pair of the white Trustfires, and also a pair of the grey ultrafires, just to see how they perform.


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## mudman cj (May 13, 2008)

Has anyone measured the point at which overdischarge protection kicks in on these cells?


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## Raymond (May 13, 2008)

I haven't, and not planning to either 
I've also monitored voltages while charging and when the batts are fresh of the charger. Highest voltage I've seen was during charging, about 4.24V, which is too low to trip a protection circuit.

I also haven't discharged any battery below 2.7V.


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## bessiebenny (May 24, 2008)

I've received and tested the KD Protected 625mAh RCR123A batteries with the Fenix TK10.
They advertise that it has 5% more capacity that Trustfire. But it doesn't seem so.
(This test is based on just 1 pair of KD RCRs that I have so I hope to see if Raymond gets same results)


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## Raoul_Duke (May 24, 2008)

Any Idea what the DX 11670 protection cuircuit will allow. Looking to drive a 1.25A lamp from these as the V stays highest throuout the discharge...but would be pointless if they wont work at that current draw.

Cheers for the results!!!


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## Raymond (May 25, 2008)

I've received my KD cells on friday. I have almost completed my tests on them (Still need to do an 1000mA discharge test on one cell). They seem to hold up pretty well under higher loads. The capacity is a little less than the grey trustfires, but the capacity is the same at all 4 discharge rates, which is a feat in itself. I haven't graphed the results yet, so I can't say anything about the voltage under load. 
I'll try to update the graphs tomorrow.

About that 1,25A discharge with the white trustfires: I can't say, because I can only test to 1A. But I know that they can handle a high charge rate, and 1.25A isn't really very high, so I think they'll won't have a problem.


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## Raymond (May 26, 2008)

Added results for  kaidomain SKU 4512
Seems to perform best under higher loads, where it holds it's voltage better than most other batteries. Total capacity exceeds AW cells, but not as good as grey trustfires. Also, size is smaller than the trustfires, just slightly larger than primaries and AW/batterystations. They fit in a fenix P3D. This makes them the best rechargeable choice for that light, imho.

I also changed the colors in the graphs, and gave each pair the same color. I hope this makes the graphs easier to read (I was running out of colors  )

I hope that my dealextreme order arrives later this week, with a new pair of white trustfires and a pair of ultrafires.

If anyone is still following this thread, let me know what types of protected rechargeable R123's you'd like to see reviewed  I'd like to test some brandname cells (pila, wolfeyes etc), but they're difficult to obtain without being overcharged on shipping costs.


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## Raymond (Jun 24, 2008)

I added the grey Ultrafire 880mAh to the charts.
These cells are about the same size as the trustfires, and too big for a fenix P3D.
They also perform very poorly (as was expected from the different reports on the board). If you're looking for cheap chinese cells, the grey trustfires are a much better choice. 

I also have to reconsider my recommendation for the white trustfires. of the 5 pieces that I received, 2 were defective. Also, there's only one cell that offered the very good performance you see in the graphs. The other 2 cells perform similar to the other batteries. Which isn't bad, but it makes the grey trustfires a better choice.


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## bessiebenny (Jun 24, 2008)

Great to see even more batteries covered!
I really appreciate your work for sharing such useful info. =)


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## richardcpf (Jun 25, 2008)

Thanks! great info!

KD's protected info is kinda untrue because they say "approximately 5% more capacity than a Trustfire "880mAh" 16340" and I see 10 minutes less of runtime.

Never realized trustfire protected are *that big* compared to a primary. Good to know KD's fit a fenix tk10, just ordered 3 pairs and a wf139 charger.


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## mdocod (Jun 25, 2008)

Hey Tom, was thinking this thread has a lot of good reference material building up. Maybe you could toss it into the "threads of interest" bin alongside some of your tests


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## geek4christ (Jun 25, 2008)

Hey Raymond,

Thanks for all your work. This is very useful information.

I have one request if you don't mind humoring me: Is there any chance you'd have access to some calipers to measure the dimensions of all the reviewed cells (length and diameter)?


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## rizky_p (Jun 25, 2008)

nice test, thanks for doing this.


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## Raymond (Jun 25, 2008)

geek4christ said:


> Hey Raymond,
> 
> Thanks for all your work. This is very useful information.
> 
> I have one request if you don't mind humoring me: Is there any chance you'd have access to some calipers to measure the dimensions of all the reviewed cells (length and diameter)?



Thanks for reading it 

Dimensions: (L*W in mm)
Batterystation: 34.4*16.7
DX11670 (white TF):35.9*16.7
DX8683 (grey TF):35.8*16.6
DX3273(ultrafire):35.8*16.8
KAI4512:34.5*16.5
AW:34.3*16.6


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## geek4christ (Jun 25, 2008)

Raymond said:


> Thanks for reading it
> 
> Dimensions: (L*W in mm)
> Batterystation: 34.4*16.7
> ...



Oh dear, I take it by your smiley that those measurements were already there and I just missed them. Sorry about that.


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## Raymond (Jun 25, 2008)

Nope, I just took the measurements 
(and copy-pasted them into the startpost)

I just meant to say thank you for reading/following the thread 

(I put a smiley after almost half my sentences)


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## geek4christ (Jun 25, 2008)

Raymond said:


> Nope, I just took the measurements
> (and copy-pasted them into the startpost)
> 
> I just meant to say thank you for reading/following the thread
> ...



Ah, well in that case: you're welcome and thanks a bunch for the measurements!

The KD cells actually look a lot better than I expected them to. The thing that makes me nervous about all of the cheap cells is not being able to count on the PCB. This is an interesting tidbit from the description of the KD cells, but I don't put a whole lot of stock into it:



> - Harden PCB with spacers, guarantee to service over its battery lifetime usage



 
I may try out a couple, but I guess it looks like AW and BatteryStation cells are still the safest bet for reliability.


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## Raymond (Jun 25, 2008)

I whish I knew of a way to test for the reliability of the PCB's. But I think that the most one can do is rely on the reputation of the manufacturer and read reports of others that have experience with the batteries.

I'm not a heavy user of flashlights, so I don't know how the different cells hold up under actual use. I do know that I've charged and discharged a lot in a relatively short amount of time. I feel as comfortable with the cheapest chinese cells as with the more expensive "brand" cells. And when I take the pricedifference into account, I personally don't see any reason to choose the expensive cells over the cheaper cells. The cheaper cells perform better and cost half the money the expensive ones do. 
I run my P3D off the kaidomain cells, when I don't have primaries in it. And I run my single cell lights of the grey trustfires. And I'm very happy with the performance 

BTW, later this week, I'll order some solarforce cells (I've read some very good reports about them), and some soshine cells (I'm curious how good they are).

I also like to try some wolfeyes cells, but the only site that I can find that sells them, charges €20 each. That's too much.


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## SilverFox (Jun 26, 2008)

Hello Eric,

Thread added to Threads of Interest.

Tom


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## fstuff (Jul 31, 2008)

http://www.kaidomain.com/WEBUI/ProductDetail.aspx?TranID=4512

kd 123 batteries not found 

recommend any cr123 batteries from DX?

Edit:
Now DealExtreme.com is down?!

wtf?!


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## geek4christ (Jul 31, 2008)

fstuff said:


> http://www.kaidomain.com/WEBUI/ProductDetail.aspx?TranID=4512
> 
> kd 123 batteries not found
> 
> recommend any 123 batteries from DX?



Yeah, their website upgrade is such an annoyance. They didn't maintain the same skus for their products.

Anyway, here's the new link to the RCR123s: http://www.kaidomain.com/ProductDetails.aspx?ProductId=2765


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## jirik_cz (Aug 1, 2008)

After a couple of months of common usage I retested my white trustfire rcr123 and aw rcr123 cells in Fenix P2D Q5. 







With new trustfires I got 48 and 50 minutes (don't have graph of this runtime), now only 41 and 43 minutes. AW performs still the same as when they were new.

So for me AW RCR123 are still the best.


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## Hondo (Aug 1, 2008)

Raymond said:


> I run my P3D off the kaidomain cells, when I don't have primaries in it. And I run my single cell lights of the grey trustfires. And I'm very happy with the performance


 

Just curious, what sort of single cell lights are you able to use those grey trustfires in?

I got some to try, and the only light I own that will take a cell that long is my HDS EDC, none of my 2xCR123 lights can handle them. And with the HDS, I am not fond of how much it is mashing the spring down. So I stripped the covering, cut off the PCB and wrapped with tape so I can use them as unprotected cells in the lights where that is reasonably safe (Zebralight gives good warning, HDS is of course fine). Of course, I am not sure if what I have left is any better than the cheap blue unprotected Ultrafires that are half the price.


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## rizky_p (Aug 1, 2008)

finally got a pair of White Trustfire RCR123, they both measured ~550mah @0.7A discharge which is similar to your test.


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## alphazeta (Sep 19, 2008)

Just wanted to give an update for the Kaidomain item#4512 batteries.

A pair just arrived in my office today. They are no longer the same product. I don't have my caliper or camera here but, they are now MUCH longer than my surefire cr123s.
They are wrapped unmarked in blue & look to be the length of those gray protected 16340 trustfires. The product sticker did list #4512. They don't fit my novatac 120P nor my fenix P3D (sticks out over 1mm on the P3D tube).

Absolute junk. The only light I have which these long protected "16340"s have fit is my lumapower d-mini.

Please update the initial post that the new kai4512s have a different spec. Don't want anymore cpfers to waste any more $$$ on this rubbish. Even @just $5.99, it would have been better if just applied to my next order of AWs.

-AZ


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## mudman cj (Sep 19, 2008)

I have a pair of the shorter KD #4512 cells I bought a few months ago, and the first time I used one of them it discharged all the way down to 0.0V in my Zebralight H50. These were supposedly protected against over discharge, though I wouldn't rule out the possibility that there really is a protection circuit that simply drained the battery over a two month period. Simply rubbish. :thumbsdow Every time I try to 'save' money by buying something other than AW cells this is the kind of thing that happens.


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## alphazeta (Sep 19, 2008)

More insult to injury.

Got home & measured the kd4512 cells with a voltmeter. One of them is fine at 3.86volts & the other was 0.71volts . Lovely, so if I was a noobie & didn't use a voltmeter before charging the cells -> I would be seeing fireworks in my home?
Absolute junk. 

btw - in case anyone still care, this rubbish of a cell measured 35.35mm x 16.67mm I'd avoid it at all costs.

-AZ


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## mitch79 (Sep 20, 2008)

Another vote for AW's rcr123's.
I recently purchased four of these from southern-lights.
With the labels removed all four fit in my SF A2 Aviator :twothumbs.


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## jirik_cz (Sep 20, 2008)

White trustfires after 5 months of usage... :thumbsdow
I can't recommend them to anyone they are crap.

Now I have two pairs of Solarforce RCR123. They have the same length as CR123 so they fit to all lights without problems. Looks like they have 5-8% less capacity than AWs. Now lets see how they'll perform in a long term:ironic:


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## mdocod (Sep 22, 2008)

where did the graphs go???

eek

[edit in]never-mind, they are back up[/edit in]


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## Firecop (Sep 24, 2008)

Outstanding work! Thank you very much; I just made my first foray into the CR123 world using your tests.


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## GrAndAG (Sep 26, 2008)

Just FYI...
My tests of various R123 batteries I have. The discharge current was 0.5A.


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## Black Rose (Sep 26, 2008)

Raymond said:


> BTW, later this week, I'll order some solarforce cells (I've read some very good reports about them)


Did you get the Solarforce cells?


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## cheetokhan (Sep 30, 2008)

Just tested a pair of grey Ultrafire 16340 cells, DX#3273, with my West Mountain CBA II. I used a 1 Amp rate and a cutoff voltage of 2.8V. I got .53Ah and .57Ah.
To test the cells protection circuit board, I then placed one of the discharged cells into my EagleTac T10C and ran it on high. It ran for a minute or so, then started blinking at a fast rate. It did that for another minute or so, then went out. So the cell's protection circuit is working.


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## mrQQ (Dec 30, 2008)

hi,

i'm sorry if this is wrong thread to ask, but which budget rcr123's would you recommend? 

thanks


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## mr.snakeman (Jan 1, 2009)

mrQQ said:


> hi,
> 
> i'm sorry if this is wrong thread to ask, but which budget rcr123's would you recommend?
> 
> thanks


 To give you an answer one would need to know what flashlight (manufacture and model) you need the batterie for (some lights can only use 3.0v., some can use up to 3.7v.).


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## mrQQ (Jan 1, 2009)

oh, sorry - I need 3.7v ones..


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## VegasF6 (Jan 1, 2009)

How can anyone else tell you which batteries to get? The information is all there in the first few posts for you to decide yourself. 

Just remember, there is more to picking a battery than which one "has the most power." Quality and reliability, built in safety devices, physical size, warranty, price and capacity are all factors.


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## mrQQ (Jan 2, 2009)

VegasF6 said:


> How can anyone else tell you which batteries to get? The information is all there in the first few posts for you to decide yourself.
> 
> Just remember, there is more to picking a battery than which one "has the most power." Quality and reliability, built in safety devices, physical size, warranty, price and capacity are all factors.


 
That is exactly the reason why I'm asking for an advice from someone who has had experience with more than one brand. Since I didn't have any, all I can find out is capacity and price - all other would be a guess..


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## VegasF6 (Jan 2, 2009)

Ok, I still don't know your application, but I am going to go ahead and recomend you contact AW in his sales thread in the marketplace. His batteries are considered top notch, they employ many safety features and come with a 90 day warranty. To the best of my knowledge, he will ship anywhere.

http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=187951


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## mrQQ (Jan 2, 2009)

Ah, I guess you're right, I haven't given enough background info!

Currently, I have 2 AW's 18650's, and 4 AW's RCR123's. You're correct - they are top quality, and I would recommend them any day!

They are exepnsive, however.

And since I have a lot of budget lights, which I rarely use, but still do sometimes, I want some budget batteries to put into them. I've been looking at what DX/KD offers, and there are a lot of ultrafire/trustfire/solarforce/etc brands, but it's very difficult to say which of those mediocre brands are better and which are worse..


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## VegasF6 (Jan 2, 2009)

The AW cells aren't the cheapest, but they may be the best value. 
As you can see from the charts on the front, the gray Trustfires from DX, sku 8683 seem to have the most capacity. 

I have tried pretty much every cell shown in the chart except the white trustfires. Also have used Solarforce 16340's. 

The Kai cells didn't live up to there claims. But, they are a bit shorter than the trustfires/ultrafires so if that is a factor, then they might be what you need.

Same is true of the Solarforce I have used, shorter.

Battery station also nice and short, and have a quality feel to the construction, but they aren't any cheaper than AW's cells. 

If you will be using these in a high discharge situation (say much more than ~1.25 amps) than you would probably be better served with different chemistry battery altogether. Mdocod has an excellent thread about the new IMR cells, as well as a boatload of other usefull info in his compatibility thread. 

Then there are the lifepo cells that have lower capacity and a lower voltage. In some situations those might be preferable. They don't vent with flames, and can be discharged and charged faster than traditional lico cells, but all the cheapies I have heard about aren't nearly as good as AW's IMR. 

Then, even though Raymond has done an excellent job on his runtime graphs etc, he clearly states that they could be a statistical anomoly. Just testing 2 or 4 cells out of thousands or hundreds of thousands of cells may not be typical of all of them. Especially with the cheaper cells which don't seem to have very high quality control. A good example of this is the DX11670 shown in his chart. The second cell performed much better than the first.

And, to add in to the mix there is the trustfire 18350 size cell. It would only fit in rare instances, but if you have an especially roomy light, it will probably perform better for you than anything in the 16340 size. (but it is kind of comparing apples and oranges)

Now, if they are lights you use rarely, you might want to consider primary cells for those lights. As long as you stick with a reputable cell, it will be cheaper than any rechargeable up front, and have better capacity as well, dependant on your discharge rates though. Some lights will perform better on those anyhow, run more efficiently if they aren't designed for the higher voltages. But, I have seen cases where the opposite is true. Less runtime on primaries than secondaries!

See why I say we can't tell you what batteries to buy? It's kind of a personal choice, and is dependant upon a lot of things.

So, with many reservations, I will say buy the gray Trustfires for capacity, or the blue KD cells for greater compatibility size wise.


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## mrQQ (Jan 2, 2009)

You gave me a lot of food for thought! I wonder how much would the size difference hurt me, AW's fit in all of them, but will those budget ones fit.. will think about it.

Thanks!


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## mr.snakeman (Jan 2, 2009)

mrQQ said:


> You gave me a lot of food for thought! I wonder how much would the size difference hurt me, AW's fit in all of them, but will those budget ones fit.. will think about it.
> 
> Thanks!


 If AWs fit all, why not go with them? My experience with AW cells is very positive.:twothumbs


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## Fallingwater (Jan 2, 2009)

Dunno how I never saw this thread before now.
I find it extremely interesting that the gray Trustfires have managed to consistently outperform AWs, albeit by a small margin.


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## mudman cj (Jan 2, 2009)

They are able to do so because of their larger size IMO, which renders them unusable in many lights.


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## mrQQ (Jan 7, 2009)

What I dont understand though, is that this thread says gray TF are 35.8mm, while this photo shows whole 1mm shorter cell: http://www1.dealextreme.com/productimages/sku_8683_3.jpg

would they fake the measurments..? hard to believe that..


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## jirik_cz (Jan 7, 2009)

Take closer look on that measurement. They took it without the nipple. :shakehead


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## Fallingwater (Jan 7, 2009)

mudman cj said:


> They are able to do so because of their larger size IMO, which renders them unusable in many lights.


Even then, though, once you remove the size difference, the performance is about the same. I like Trustfire cells, and even I didn't expect this. Very pleasant surprise indeed.


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## mitch79 (Jan 9, 2009)

For cheaper RCR's I really like the Soshine 16340's.
They perform very well for me.
Build quality appears to be excellent, capacity on par or better than my AW 16340's.
Size and length is the same as CR-123's. They fit everything I have that is diameter/length sensitive including my EX10 and three different SF A2's.
Please bare in mind that these are *un*protected cells.


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## Buck (Mar 14, 2009)

mrQQ said:


> Currently, I have 2 AW's 18650's, and 4 AW's RCR123's. You're correct - they are top quality, and I would recommend them any day!
> 
> They are exepnsive, however.



Trustfires are not less expensive, they are merely cheap: I bought a 2-pack of each 18650 and 16340 Trustfires. One of each died by the third charge. For that price per surviving cell, I could have bought AWs. I'm lucky I didn't seriously NEED my light to work when they failed.

("Cheap" can mean either inexpensive or shoddy, and they often go together. OTOH, good value means inexpensive but not too crappy, and that is usually harder to find. Many people forget that.)


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## pcmike (Aug 5, 2009)

Raymond,

If you had to recommend some R123s that were safe, consistent, the PROPER size (meaning identical to a primary), had the best capacity, and preformed the best at <700ma.. what would you recommend? Batterystation? AW?

Thank you.


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## Glenn7 (Jun 18, 2010)

I know this is an old thread but a useful one - just wondering how the IMR16340 would look in comparison as technology changes


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## jasonck08 (Jul 5, 2010)

I've got some unprotected cells that do over 700mAH in capacity @ 250mA discharge. They do excellent under heavier loads as well.


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