# Lathe upgrade the hard way



## gadget_lover (Dec 17, 2005)

Well, the tempation was just too great. Cummins Tools had a "truckload" sale in my town and I just had to drop in. Cummins, in case you don;t know, is an importer of cheap tools just like Harbor Freight. They have real stores AND they send Semi trailors full of tools from town to town, selling out of local meeting halls (elks, masonic temples, school gyms, etc).

Cummins sells a 7x12 lathe that's very similar to the HF 7x10. It's probably from the same manufacturer. The 7x12 is 4 inches longer than the 7x10 AND it has slightly better electronics. It sells for $399 on their web site and at the truckload sale.

I bought it, since I was saving the $75 shipping fee.

It looks just like this:







The reasons I am upgrading are simple. The extra 4 inch bed length lets me use longer drills and other tailstock tools. The extra 4 inches of carriage travel allows me to work on slightly longer lights. The controller allows the chuck to slow to 50 or 60 rpm and still be usable, as opposed to 200 rpm for the HF model. This can be an advantage when threading to a shoulder.

So far every thing appears complete and reasonably well alligned.

So why is this the hard way to upgrade? Well, because I now have to transfer the DRO crossslide and compound from my old lathe and put it back together for sale. I also have to clean it, adjust it, etc. Then I have to sell my old one, crating it and shipping it.

If you are in the bay area, Cummins is selling out of the Pleasanton Masonic center on Hopyard till 7PM today.


Daniel


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## Anglepoise (Dec 17, 2005)

Congratulations on your xmas present to yourself.
Looks great, but agree , you will be spending time getting the DRO
moved over.
Best of the season to you and all others that frequent this area of CPF.


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## TranquillityBase (Dec 17, 2005)

Are you BS'n gadget? A DRO on a mini lathe! The least expensive DRO I've seen is about $700.00. Please, please, please, post a photo of the old lathe before you switch everything over.

TB


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## cmacclel (Dec 17, 2005)

TranquillityBase said:


> Are you BS'n gadget? A DRO on a mini lathe! The least expensive DRO I've seen is about $700.00. Please, please, please, post a photo of the old lathe before you switch everything over.
> 
> TB




My DRO cost me a magnetic base and set of Calipers. It works great as long as you don't need over 6". You could buy the digital readout scales from Ebay for your machine for around $100. The 3 readout display is another $180.


Mac


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## Ledean (Dec 17, 2005)

Great buy gadget love.

Congrats on the new purchase.


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## ABTOMAT (Dec 17, 2005)

Good deal, but man, the "hard way"? Upgrading a lathe the hard way is taking apart something that weighs 900 pounds, carrying it into your basement, and tracking down 40-year-old parts.


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## gadget_lover (Dec 17, 2005)

TranquillityBase said:


> Are you BS'n gadget? A DRO on a mini lathe! The least expensive DRO I've seen is about $700.00. Please, please, please, post a photo of the old lathe before you switch everything over.
> 
> TB




The DRO is actually a digital encoder attached to the leadscrews of the compound and cross-slide. They were an Xmas present last year from my wife. You can see them at http://www.littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2222

You can see part of it on the right side of the compound in this picture





It measures the distance the slide should have traveled based on rotation, not the absolute distance it REALLY moved. It's fairly accurate, down to .0001 inch. It includes new leadscrews that are .050 per revolution instead of the stock .040.

Daniel


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## TranquillityBase (Dec 17, 2005)

:wow: WOW! That's really cool, and reasonably priced too. I'm amazed at how well those little lathes work. 

I've had this link in my favorites for years now. Every once and a while I go back to see if there are photos of the finished chuck. 

http://warhammer.mcc.virginia.edu/ty/7x10/5c-chuck.html

That hunk of steel is probably heavier than the lathe. 

Thanks for the photo Daniel.

TB


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## HarryN (Dec 18, 2005)

It's bad enough that I read about Gadget's stuff here, but he CALLS me this morning to tell me that the sale where he bought this thing is 1/2 mile from my house. I finally broke down and went - without my wallet.

Nice buy Daniel - now, just by a bigger one next time.


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## gadget_lover (Dec 18, 2005)

Sorry about that, Harry. You know how a pusher has to make sure others share their addiction.  Yeah, I really called Harry about that. I was trying to help. Really!

I think I have pretty conclusive evidence that the HF and Cummins lathes come from the same factory. There are differences, of course, but while cleaning and tweaking my new one today I was surprised where the paint was wiped or sprayed on after partial assembly. The Cummins yellow paint was much more visible on the black ironwork than the HF red paint.

In particular, I noticed several spots where touch up paint was applied on both using the same type of rag or sponge . Based on the smears, the same general motions were used to apply it. The smudges were in the same spots on both lathes.

I made a .010shim to keep the carriage lead screw tight against the pillow block that holds the right end. Actually, I made two; one for each lathe. Upon removing the pillow block I saw identical overspray on the same spots on the pillow blocks. I also saw identical paint smears from that touch up paint rag.

While it's possible that they were made in different places by people trained the same way, the overspray was so consistant that I have to believe that they were made in the same factory.


Oh, all my 7x10 parts, pieces and accessories work fine on the 7x12 too! 

I turned a spike to hold the Christmas tree firmly in the stand today. It worked. 

Daniel


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## gadget_lover (Dec 18, 2005)

By the way, Thanks for all the kind words. I'd looked into this model last year (there's a thread here somewhere about the Cummins) and would have bought it then except that Harbor Freight did not charge shipping and it was $40 cheaper. By the time I bought the steady and follower rests and the backplate, and turning tools it actually cost more. 

The HF is now going for $419 and has only one advantage; it comes with a pretty decent live center for the tailstock. The Cummins included a dead center instead.

Advantages to the Cummins; Accesories include steady and follower rests , backplate, 1 set of turning tools and a 13 mm tailstock drill chuck (none of which come with the HF). The Cummins is exactly the same quality.

I found while adjusting things that the chuck has one jaw that's .0015 too high, so I'll need to true it up. The jaws are concentric. It seems this one has a cheaper chuck than my HF, but I'll have to find the original HF chuck to be sure. I've not used that one since I got the 4 jaw last year. The chuck is very hard to turn, so I'll have to use the power drill trick to break it in.

So far, I think I would recommend this one to a newbie as well as to experienced hobbiests.

Daniel


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## ABTOMAT (Dec 18, 2005)

These are all made by the Seig factory, aren't they?


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## gadget_lover (Dec 18, 2005)

Yes, they all appear to be made by Sieg ( http://www.siegind.com/Products/blackred_lathe.htm ) . I was just looking around on the web and found confirmation that Seig provides lathes to HF, Grizzly, Cummins, Homier, Speedway, Northern Tools, Enco and Micromark. Mine's the C2-300. My HF appears to be an older verson of the C2-200. Much older. 

I don't see a date on either of them.

Daniel


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## HarryN (Dec 19, 2005)

Well Daniel, now I will just have to come over and turn a knob for the 2CR2 light. - Just to make sure that new lathe is working of course. :laughing:


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## modamag (Dec 19, 2005)

Congrats Daniel,

What a great XMas pressent.
All of those 7x1# are pretty much made by one company Seig (Model C2), just sold under different company name.

Have you got a chance to check out the HF8x12. I know you won't get much community support for these (eg CNC, tooling) but it a much better deal (precision/$$$) than the 7x1#. It's only ~$100 more. These 8x12 are actually a clone of the imfamous Emco Compact 8. Apparently, China have bought the rights for many of these machine and produced in @ lost cost. These machine can hold 0.001" out of the box.

As for the DRO. You got couple options
Shooting Star BT-2 ... $600
Seig DRCD ... $130


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## gadget_lover (Dec 19, 2005)

Thanks for the kind words. It wasn't really a christmas present, it was just part of my toy aquisition program. I set aside $100 a month into a savings account via direct deposit just to buy toys. If you save long enough you can buy anything. 

I looked at the 8x12 several times. They sometimes come on sale for less than $500. What turned me off is that I've become used to the mini-lathe's variable speed control. It makes it really easy to do some things, since you can change from 100 RPM to 1500 and back quickly. I find when parting it makes it easy to find that optimal turning rate. Same with threading. I can run it real slow to the left while cutting the threads, then real fast to the right when backing up for the next pass.

There are several other DRO options. They rely on a linear encoder placed under the bed or under the cross-slide to measure the absolute location. There's also one that looks like a big dial indicator on a fancy mount. I've forgotten the name, but it's an analog DRO.

What I DON'T like about the leadscrew mounted DRO is that it is a dead reckoning system. It measures the number of turns of the leads screw. It does not have a way to take backlash into account, so it can be off by a thou or two even though the display is accurate to 1/10000.

That's the other thing that I find annoying about my DROs. My calipers read 0.000+1/2 but the DRO reads 0.0000 so I frequently confuse the ten thousandths position for the thousandths. You get used to it but......

I ground the jaws of my chuck last night and it now runs true within .0005 inch. The spindle (and therefore the chuck) appears to be nicely parallel to the bed. I don't think I'll have to do too much adjusting.

Daniel


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## gadget_lover (Dec 19, 2005)

HarryN said:


> Well Daniel, now I will just have to come over and turn a knob for the 2CR2 light. - Just to make sure that new lathe is working of course. :laughing:




It's ALMOST ready for use. I have to turn a pen and pencil for my father today and get it express mailed tomorrow. Geez! Holidays get busy.

Daniel


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## Ledean (Dec 19, 2005)

That is a great buy Daniel. 
how heavy is it ?. I know the HF 7*10 weighs about 75 pounds. 
Ledean


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## gadget_lover (Dec 19, 2005)

Ledean said:


> That is a great buy Daniel.
> how heavy is it ?. I know the HF 7*10 weighs about 75 pounds.
> Ledean




Thanks Ledean. I'm happy so far. 

The 7x12 is only a bit heavier than the 7x10. The 7x10 shipping weight is listed at 89 lbs on their web site, the Cummin 7x12 box says 90 lbs without the shipping re-inforcements. I did not weigh either, since I'm under doctor's orders not to lift anything heavy. 

They appear to have identical castings, except the 7x12 is longer. They are almost the same height and the beds are the same width. The 7x12 is not a "scaled up" 7x10, it's a stretched version. The headstock, cross slide, motor, etc are pretty much the same. The stretch adds 4 inches in length and an extra rib between the ways. Since the ways are (essentially) 1 inch wide by 2 inch tall t-bars, that's not that much extra weight. 

Now I'm curious. Can I fit a scale under there? Hmmmmm

Daniel


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## Ledean (Dec 19, 2005)

90 lbs is not much heavier than a 7x10. Did you get someone to lift it for you or is there any other method you use to move it. Reason I am asking is that I have to be carteful about my back too.
4 inches is a lot more room and you can put the big boys in there. The steady rest helps a lot. I had a question about he steady rest . Does it leave marks when it is holding a piece that keeps rotating ?
Ledean


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## ABTOMAT (Dec 19, 2005)

I have a bad back, although I'm a young guy and it could be worse. My limit is around 90-110 pounds right now. I've learned how valuable it is to use the easiest means to move stuff. If you can't lift it easily, put it on a handtruck and use that. Rig it up and down stairs with rope. With the help of a friend I've managed to move 200-300 pound objects down into my basement with lifting much.

Brass-fingered steadies will mark things softer than they are, or with high finishes. Black anodizing can develop a faint ring. Celophane tape is your friend if you're not turning too heavily.


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## Ledean (Dec 20, 2005)

Hand truck is very handy. I guess the most diffucult part for me is to get it in and out of the hand truck to say the work table . The lifting required from the hand truck to the work table is difficult.

Celopane tape is a neat idea. But if you do stuff like boring I guess it tends to leave its mark.


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## cy (Dec 20, 2005)

110 lbs sounds lightweight 

had to use a engine hoist to move my southbend lathe and full size chinese milling machine into place.


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## gadget_lover (Dec 20, 2005)

I've not used the rests yet. I've figured that I would make a sacrificial ring for boring any finsihed pieces. I also picked up some ball bearings with the idea of using them in place of teh brass points.

Thanks for the info re: anodizing and brass. I would not have thought of using celo tape.

As for lifting the lathe, I used a foolproof method. I had the Cummins folks load it into the back of teh truck. I also took my nieghbor with me to the sale so he could buy some junk. While I was getting the dolly he walked in carrying the lathe and set it down next to me. We both lifted the lathe from the floor and placed it on the bench. 

It's not really that heavy. I have moved the HF unit before. I'm not sure I could lift it to shoulder height, but waist height was easy enough. Remember, if you and your wife/neigbor/son each take an end you are only lifting 1/2 of the weight. I have a cat that's 20 punds, so 45 is not that bad.

I usually slide things off the pickup truck's tailgate right onto the dolly. My weight limit is somewhere between 10 lbs and "don't strain". That's rather vague, so I'm being careful.

Cy, my heart just bleeds purple koolaid for you. We should all have such problems. A southbend! A full size mill! Bah! Humbug! 

Daniel


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## ABTOMAT (Dec 20, 2005)

Cy, what kind of SB? Just curious. I originally was going to move my big Clausing lathe with my engine hoist, but it came apart so easily it was faster to break and carry than it was to rig downstairs.

Engine hoists are great things to have, even if you don't have engines. I put mine together in the basement to lift the 200-pound (lightweight) ram for my 25-ton press to head hight. You can get cheap hoists for around $100-150 at auto parts stores. Worth every penny. Of course, I got mine from the backyard of some woman who didn't know what it was.


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## gadget_lover (Dec 22, 2005)

Well, the new lathe checks out. The ways are parallel, the jaws are concentric, the tailstock lines up. I've cut a few small things to test it and they turned out A-OK. I'd recommend this lathe to someone looking for a new one.


My old lathe is now listed on the BST under the "sell, non lights" section. Sorry to turn loose of it, but I can't keep everything.

The Sell post:
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=102072

Daniel


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## gadget_lover (Dec 24, 2005)

A quick question for the other machinists...

I'm selling my old 7x10 since I don't have room for both. The new lathe came with a steady rest, a following rest and a 6 inch backplate for mounting parts that are too big for the chuck.

I'd already bought those same items for my 7x10, so now I have two of each.

The question; should I hold onto them, include them with the old lathe or sell them seperately. I've not had a need to use the priginal set in the last year.


Daniel


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## tvodrd (Dec 24, 2005)

Hi Daniel, :wave:

The 15 X 40 at work came with faceplate, steady and follow rests, and optional taper attachment. While they have their place (loong, skinny parts) I don't think we've needed to use any of them in the 18 years since we bought the thing.  My 13 X 40 came with the aforementioned and I paid big $$ for the taper attachment. In retrospect I shouldn't have bought it as the tailstock is adjustable for offset more than sufficient for rifle barrels. Same thing kinda goes for gap beds. I do not envision ever having to remove the gap from mine. A good rotary table for the mill is a must and we "turned" a 20" dia dial at work once. It was quite a set-up with the ram on the Bridgeport rotated about 45 deg and cranked way out. I wish I had a pic.

Larry


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## gadget_lover (Dec 24, 2005)

Merry CHristmas! 

Thanks Larry. It sounds like I won't need duplicates so I might as well sell them too.

Daniel


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## Ledean (Dec 30, 2005)

HI Daniel 

Tried to pm you for the last couple of day but it does'nt seem to go thru.
Couple you pm me your email ?
Ledean


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