# Bison CNC drill chuck



## precisionworks

Got the new chuck mounted today on the drill press. Run out is small, +/- .002". Chucked up a 1" S&D bit with 1/2" shank & fed it through half an inch of mild steel plate, turning 100 rpm to keep the heat down. Not even a hint of slippage, just like an Albrecht. And the chuck would not release the drill shank becaue just like an Albrecht, it grips more tightly as the torque on the shank increases. Quite a bit better than my Jacobs high torque - high precision keyless in that regard. Now, how to release the shank?

If the chuck were an old, beat up model, this is the easiest way:








But it's brand new & that was not an attractive option. Bison was smart enough to drill three holes, 120 degrees apart, at the top of the chuck body. All I needed was to make a strap wrench to fit. After measuring the ID of all three holes (.260"), a socket head cap screw was chucked in the lathe & turned down to .259", giving the screw head a nice fit in the holes. A piece of 1/2" wide flat bar was drilled & tapped for the screw, then bent around a piece of 1.875" solid round bar held in the vise. The rosebud head on the torch brought the flat bar to red heat in just a few seconds & it easily formed around the bar. After it cooled, the bar was back bent to form a handle.











The curve required just a little tweaking so that the cap screw engaged correctly. One easy hit with the palm of my hand loosened the chuck 







Now that the new chuck was working, a holder was made for some of the indexable milling cutters & shank.


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## wquiles

Very nice Barry. I love that wood block as well


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## precisionworks

Thanks, Will 

I was working wood for many years before metal became the focus. With a 1950's DeWalt radial saw, two chop saws, table saw & Biesemeyer fence, 2 hp 240 volt router, 6" jointer, 12" planer, two stationary dust collectors, etc., the shop processes wood pretty efficiently. Just haven't figured out how to make money at it :shakehead


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## KowShak

wquiles said:


> Very nice Barry. I love that wood block as well



It is a nice piece of woodwork, almost too nice for a dirty place like a workshop.


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## PEU

Make deluxe tool holders in exotic woods :nana:


Pablo


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## precisionworks

> almost too nice for a dirty place like a workshop


Most days the floor is clean enough to eat from, or at least the shop dogs think so 



> Make deluxe tool holders in exotic woods :nana:


I do have a nice selection of most tropical hardwoods, as well as Koa from Hawaii, and some highly figured American Black Walnut. But only a machinist with a BMW parked next to their lathe could afford my prices


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## darkzero

Cool! I just unexpectedly won a new one of these but in the 5/8" version for just over $50. Overkill for the lathe but it wasn't expensive. I was googling on it & came across this thread. 

Nice wrench you made up & especially the wood holder! 

I've noticed a lot of these keyless chucks have those holes on the side. Do they sell wrenches for them? Not that I'd need one for the lathe but just curious. I though about getting a keyless chuck for my drill press too for quick & easy bit changes but the thought of my drill press not having a spindle lock doesn't make it seem practical. The chuck it has now has a lot of runout. I guess a keyed chuck would just be best. :thinking:


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## precisionworks

> I guess a keyed chuck would just be best. :thinking:


The tail stock mounted chuck is often used for power tapping, which involves reversing the spindle to push the tap out of the part. Many keyless chucks will loosen when the spindle is reversed, but I'm not at all certain if the Bison will do that. 

I've tapped a lot of holes on a Bpt mill using an Albrecht keyless, and that chuck would not release for love nor money. Only an 18" Channelock plier would get it to loosen. The Bison CNC keyless is the best Albrecht copy I've ever used, and grips much more tightly than my Jacobs High Precision - High Torque keyless chuck. The Jacobs is a wimp compared to the Bison 



> holes on the side. Do they sell wrenches for them?


Not that I've seen. The wrench is easy to make, especially if you have a way to heat the flat bar to red heat - I use a 100,000 btuh rosebud with oxy-acetylene gas, but a MAPP gas torch would probably do the job.



> I though about getting a keyless chuck for my drill press too for quick & easy bit changes


Once you use one on the drill press or mill, you'll never ever go back to a keyed chuck.



> Not that I'd need one for the lathe ...


This chuck will surprise you. If the tool tries to rotate the slightest bit in the jaws, the jaws will self tighten to the extent that nothing short of a wrench (or an 18" Channelock) will get it to release. Albrecht's do exactly the same thing. YMMV, and you may never need the wrench


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## darkzero

precisionworks said:


> The tail stock mounted chuck is often used for power tapping, which involves reversing the spindle to push the tap out of the part. Many keyless chucks will loosen when the spindle is reversed, but I'm not at all certain if the Bison will do that.


 
I've been scared to power tap mainly cause I've never tried & not sure how. How is it done exactly? Do I just leave the tailstock loose & advance the entire tailstock by hand till it engages the work piece then stop the spindle when it has reached the depth? Still sounds scary when it reaches the end especially it tapping a blind hole. Without a brake the spindle will still turn as it slows down after shutting off the lathe?




precisionworks said:


> I've tapped a lot of holes on a Bpt mill using an Albrecht keyless, and that chuck would not release for love nor money. Only an 18" Channelock plier would get it to loosen. The Bison CNC keyless is the best Albrecht copy I've ever used, and grips much more tightly than my Jacobs High Precision - High Torque keyless chuck. The Jacobs is a wimp compared to the Bison
> 
> This chuck will surprise you. If the tool tries to rotate the slightest bit in the jaws, the jaws will self tighten to the extent that nothing short of a wrench (or an 18" Channelock) will get it to release. Albrecht's do exactly the same thing. YMMV, and you may never need the wrench


 
Cool, guess I got lucky getting this one & I'm excited to get it now. :twothumbs




precisionworks said:


> Once you use one on the drill press or mill, you'll never ever go back to a keyed chuck.


 
Thanks Barry, will have try it, more money to spend now.


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## precisionworks

> How is it done exactly? Do I just leave the tailstock loose & advance the entire tailstock by hand till it engages the work piece then stop the spindle when it has reached the depth?


That's pretty much it, Will.

My lathe has a keyed Jacobs Super Chuck that holds the tap (tail stock mount). The hard shank of any tap will spin in the chuck when the taps reaches bottom, which is really a nice safety feature. The chuck acts like a slip clutch. Your Bison will *not *slip when the tap starts to spin, it will simply self tighten, so you'll need to watch more closely.

Put the spindle in slow speed (back gear if available), 100-150 rpm is a good speed, which is around 2 revolutions per second. On a 20 pitch tap (20 threads per inch) it takes about 10 seconds to tap 1" deep. That speed allows enough time to hit stop or reverse without panic. Watch someone run big taps on a big lathe in a production shop ... about the same speed is used.

Start the spindle, push the tail stock forward until the tap starts, let the machine pull the tap into the part. Stop, reverse the spindle to back the tap out, all done.

I've never broken a tap (that I couldn't get out :huh: )


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## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> Start the spindle, push the tail stock forward until the tap starts, let the machine pull the tap into the part. Stop, reverse the spindle to back the tap out, all done.



For many months I have been thinking on a simple design that would allow the chuck in the tailstock slip then the pre-set torque would be exceeded, much like the adjustable torque clutch available on almost all hand-held, battery operated, corldless drills. Ideally (while you find the particular setting), you would start with a lower torque value and then gradually increase it as needed. I have several design ideas on paper and in my head, but I have not started building anything yet - that could be a fun project.

Now, regarding the method that you are describing above:
1) Wouldn't the torque from the spindle try to spin the already-loose tailstock, which would of course then cause the tap to no longer be centered, which would/could cause the tap to break? Wouldn't that also depend on the torque applied to the chuck itself, since you are counting on the chuck tips to let the tap spin when the torque is high enough?

2) Wouldn't that also vary a lot from lathe to lathe since the weight/mass of the tailstock assembly in a 12x lathe is significantly heavier than on a 7x/8x? And wouldn't this extra weight/mass potentially cause threads to strip if you combine a small hole/fine thread with the heavy 12x tailstock assembly?

I am not saying it can't work, as it obviously works perfect for you, just that there seems to be a fine balancing act going on between all of the pieces of the equation, specially thin/small diameter taps 

I guess I would have to try it a lot, with a lot of scrap pieces to find out what would be the "sweet" spot in terms of how loose the tailstock would have to be to prevent "easy" movement without being torqued from the centerline, how loose would the chuck have to hold/grip the tap, etc.. - seems like a lot of variables and easy to mess up for a newbie like me


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## darkzero

wquiles said:


> specially thin/small diameter taps


 
Of course I don't know much about this subject but I don't think it may be a good idea to use small taps when power feeding. Whenever I see this done it's never with small taps. Ok, you try it first, post pics/videos, then I will follow.  

The only method I use to tap on the lathe is by hand & using a live center to keep it straight. Was talking to my instructor one day & he mentioned he has a project for a spring loaded center which is perfect for this. Not part of the courses but he said he'd let me make one. Looking foward to it.


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## cmacclel

You would not do this with a small say 4-40 tap  I have done it many times with a 3/8 size tap. Now my lathe with do rigid tapping 

Mac


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## precisionworks

> Wouldn't the torque from the spindle try to spin the already-loose tailstock


The tail stock isn't loose, nor is it tight, but the clamp is loosened enough to allow the TS to easily slide along the ways. It works well (as Mac said) on "bigger" taps, like 1/4" (6mm) and up. I've used it on 6" lathes, 18" lathes, and the sizes in between. I believe the key to this is that the TS can easily slide on the ways. The TS on the 18" machine probably weighed 200# but was easy to slide, and power tapping worked well.

Pipe taps need a huge amount of torque, especially as they reach 2" or larger & the taper gets buried in the work. Even those big pipe taps never caused the TS to twist or spin.

I've never tried to power tap a 0-80 

This method works well with taps that require lots of torque, like pipe taps or forming taps. (Formers require anywhere from 50% to 100% more torque than a cutting tap, according to Balax).



> The only method I use to tap on the lathe is by hand & using a live center to keep it straight.


That's another sound method. Along that same line, a small dead center (held in a drill chuck) will keep a tap straight in the mill.

--------------------------------------------------------------

If any method of work seems unsafe or risky, stop. Just because it works for someone here doesn't mean it will work well for you. IF you try power tapping on the lathe (or mill) use the slowest speed until you've developed a feel for the process. It's done all the time in production shops, but those machine operators spend 40 hours each week perfecting their skills. Just like learning to cut threads, things can & will go wrong at the worst possible time


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## gadget_lover

I read about power tapping here and on Home Shop Machinists.

It did work as advertised.

But.....


The tap I used is now 100% devoid of markings. The spinning in the chuck smoothed out the lightly stamped numbers. Smooth as glass.

I'll only do power tapping if I REALLY need it now. 

Daniel


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## precisionworks

Most people agree that the best way to tap, especially multiple parts, is by using a tapping head in the mill:






I use mostly the large 90X Tapmatic (auction find) or an Ettco (eBay). The heads allow preset depth control, torque adjustment, and automatic tap reversal without reversing (or stopping) the spindle. If you have a few hundred holes to tap, especially in sizes over 1/2", these are a life saver.


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## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> I do have a nice selection of most tropical hardwoods, as well as Koa from Hawaii, and some highly figured American Black Walnut. But only a machinist with a BMW parked next to their lathe could afford my prices


My year 2000 BMW is now almost 10 years old and with 120K miles (as of yesterday), and I bought it used. Would that be enough reason to get a "discount"? 




precisionworks said:


> I've tapped a lot of holes on a Bpt mill using an Albrecht keyless, and that chuck would not release for love nor money.


I guess I am about to find out 

After 4-5 months, my turn finally came. Brand new keyless 1/2" capacity for $159 (Ebay, of course). Just a tiny amount of surface rust from being on storage - otherwise absolutely perfect:


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## precisionworks

> I guess I am about to find out


You'll have no problem, as long as you have a BIG pair of Channelocks (see first photo)


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## StrikerDown

So you are the guy that got it!

Congratulations :twothumbs


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## wquiles

StrikerDown said:


> So you are the guy that got it!
> 
> Congratulations :twothumbs



It took me all of 5-10 seconds to realize:
- I was not dreaming - the "buy it now" was incredibly low
- the pictures did show the right item, with the R8 shank, in new condition
- best price I have see on special was close to $230-240
- the seller's feedback was good

so without further though I hit the "buy it now" button!


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## Atlascycle

Will,
Your next purchase should be a good quality strap wrench, when you use those nice S&D drills you bought in that Albrecht chuck it will self tighten on the shank and you will not get it loose. If the drills have a flatted shank it is even worse in how tight the chuck will become on the shank of the drills.


Jason


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## KC2IXE

precisionworks said:


> ...snip...
> Once you use one on the drill press or mill, you'll never ever go back to a keyed chuck.



Depends - and I'm serious

I had an Abrecht on my drill press - stayed on it when I gave the DP to a friend (gave!)

I have a bunch of high end clones that I LOVE, and would not want to part with

That said, I can remember setting up a multi head production drill (for those who don't know - picture a BIG cast iron table with 2 or more columns and drillpress heads, basically meant for sequential production work) - I used to like KEYED chucks there, because it was "chuck up X size in head 1, Y size in head 2, etc etc" and only change the bits and reset to length when they got dull - the DP ran all day with the same sized bit. In a case like that, keyed chucks are actually BETTER than keyless - usually shorter, and less likely to have someone accidently change the length


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## wquiles

Atlascycle said:


> Will,
> Your next purchase should be a good quality strap wrench, when you use those nice S&D drills you bought in that Albrecht chuck it will self tighten on the shank and you will not get it loose. If the drills have a flatted shank it is even worse in how tight the chuck will become on the shank of the drills.



Thanks much for the tip Jason. I do have a couple strap wrenches - I will keep the smaller one close to the mill from now on


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## cmacclel

I use a SPI Keyless 5/8 chuck on my lathe and have had no problems with it. Sometimes I need to use 2 hands to loosen it and that's when the drill binds in titanium. The chuck I have is excellent quality and I'm very happy with it!

Mac


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## precisionworks

> Your next purchase should be a good quality strap wrench


If you have an Albrecht or Bison CNC chuck, the strap wrench (or huge Channelocks) will be needed ... sooner than later. The bigger the applied torque, the tighter the Albrecht/Bison gets. My Jacobs keyless (high torque - high precision) is a wussy compared to either Albrecht or Bison. Spin a shank in the Jacobs (which is a nice chuck with almost zero run out) & a one handed or two handed twist will free the drill.


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## precisionworks

The Bison sale runs for about two more weeks, and I have not found a sweet deal like the Albrecht that Will bought, so I phoned Johnson Cutting Tools and placed an order for the same chuck (only difference is that is has a #6JT taper mount).

7-051-338 Precision Keyless Chuck NC (1/32 - 1/2 in.) $105
7-052-806 Drill chuck arbor, R-8 to 6JT $25

I'll eBay the Jacobs High Precision-High Torque when the new chuck arrives, and should come out close to no cost


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## precisionworks

The Brown Truck brought a package today 

Cleaned & degreased the arbor & popped it into the freezer for a 30 minute shrink down:








Cleaned & degreased the internal Jacobs taper in the chuck & put it into the broiler oven at 250F (my wife is at work, which makes this OK to do :laughing: )







"Borrowed" one of her hot mitts & pulled the toasty warm chuck out of the oven, jammed the frozen arbor into the taper, and whacked the end of the arbor with a wooden mallet ... a few times.

Took the chuck to the shop (after cleaning up the kitchen), mounted it in the mill & ran an indicator against a few end mill shanks. I expected to see something around .0015" TIR, as Jacobs guarantees their High Precision chucks for less than .0016" (my own Jacobs runs .0012 TIR). TIR shows .0035", roughly twice that of the Jacobs. But the grip is much better, so the Bison stays & the Jacobs goes


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## StrikerDown

Wow, that is probably closer to true than my no name ER 40 collets!

Must have been due to the wife's cooperation!


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## precisionworks

I was in a hurry to post the photos & numbers & get back out to a job ... so I misread the indicator 

TIR is .0035" (not .00035"), about 2X that of the Jacobs High Precision.


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## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> I was in a hurry to post the photos & numbers & get back out to a job ... so I misread the indicator
> 
> TIR is .0035" (not .00035"), about 2X that of the Jacobs High Precision.



How much of the runout comes from having two pieces, the arbor and the actual chuck?

Is it therefore better when the arbor/chuck is an integral unit?

Will


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## precisionworks

> Is it therefore better when the arbor/chuck is an integral unit?


Without a doubt :thumbsup:

When Albrecht makes their Classic Keyless, where the arbor is integral with the chuck body, the arbor & chuck body are formed with one grinding set up - runout is minimal, essentially it is whatever wear is present in the machine + any tool (grinding wheel) wear. Sophisticated CNC grinders, like those used by Albrecht, have an automatic wheel dressing program followed by an automatic re-qualification program that determines the new (smaller) size of the wheel and enters that number into the program as an offset.

Check your chuck with a gage pin if you have one, or a nicely made end mill shank (which I know you have :nana I'd be surprised if TIR is over .0010".


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## precisionworks

_It isn't the chuck ... _

For comparison, the Jacobs chuck was installed & it indicates .0031", far different than it did seven years ago when the mill was new. Grasping the chuck & pulling - pushing on it shows the spindle has at least .005" radial play. 

Either the preload needs to be reset or both bearings need replacement. If a pair of ABEC-3 or ABEC-5 bearings can be found, I'll swap out the bearings & reset the preload. The Jacobs should indicate .0012", and the Bison should be about .0004" greater TIR.

I feel a lot better about the chuck ... except for the spindle bearings :sick2:


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## StrikerDown

precisionworks said:


> spindle bearings :sick2:



Does your mill use tapered rollers on the spindle?


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## precisionworks

> Does your mill use tapered rollers


That's anyone's guess 

Probably there are two tapered rollers (Timken style). I can see a preload nut at the top of the spindle when the quill is fully lowered, so I may try to pull the quill & snug up the preload a little. Trouble is that when the quill-spindle is out of the head, it's about as easy to pull the old bearings & install new ones.

Typical bearings are ABEC-1 (non precision but good enough for most work). If a pair of ABEC-5 bearings can be bought for less than a week's wages, that's what I'd like to do. Should be fun


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## StrikerDown

I don't have experience with the different bearings used in these machines but I changed from ABEC 1 to ABEC 5 bearings in a pair of roller blades that I had been using for about 6 months. Putting them in I noticed they felt quite a bit smoother rotating. After installing them and putting on the blades the first thing I noticed was my butt hitting the ground! Not so !

When loaded the difference is amazing, it's almost like the brakes are on with the ABEC 1 versus full throttle with the ABEC 5. I was afraid to try the ABEC 7 let alone ABEC 9!

I hope you can photograph the procedure changing out the bearings. We have the same basic mill !


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## precisionworks

Dodged another bullet ... photos all over the web 

http://www.fignoggle.com/machines/r...ill-drill-spindle-quill-removal-procedure.htm

The upper & lower bearings are indeed tapered rollers, so it should be easy enough to pull them, measure ID, OD & width, and come up with replacements. There are a few posts here & there about people who've found ABEC-7 or ABEC-9 bearing pairs on eBay for $50 ... we should all be so lucky.


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## alexmin

precisionworks said:


> The Bison sale runs for about two more weeks, and I have not found a sweet deal like the Albrecht that Will bought, so I phoned Johnson Cutting Tools and placed an order for the same chuck (only difference is that is has a #6JT taper mount).
> 
> 7-051-338 Precision Keyless Chuck NC (1/32 - 1/2 in.) $105
> 7-052-806 Drill chuck arbor, R-8 to 6JT $25
> 
> I'll eBay the Jacobs High Precision-High Torque when the new chuck arrives, and should come out close to no cost



Is there Johnson Cutting Tools web site?
I can see info about Bison sale on Toolmex website but they don't have any pricing.


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## darkzero

alexmin said:


> I can see info about Bison salae on Toolmex website but they don't have any pricing.



If you call they will give you MSRP pricing, they don't do retail sales. They'll happily give you distributor info in you area & answer any questions you have.


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## precisionworks

> Johnson Cutting Tools web site?



Not yet, but Tom runs a small shop so he always answers the phone (or quickly returns a message) - (248) 442-9482.

I was speaking with a coatings engineer at Titan USA last week & mentioned Tom's name. The engineer said that Tom worked as a machinist in a factory making automotive OEM parts, until that factory shut down. He opened his shop at that time, and is very responsive to any request ... much like Vic at Rani Tool :thumbsup:

Two of my favorite people to deal with.


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## wquiles

I like so much the Albretch that I got for my mill, that I decided to try one out for the TS on my 12x lathe. After a while, I took a chance on this one 1/32" to 1/2" model that looked well cared for, and it had the correct MT3 arbor for the TS in my lathe:
















Here it is next to my current chuck, a Super Ball Bearing Jacobs chuck (model 16N, capacity to 5/8"):






Just like with the Jacobs, I had to shorten the MT3 arbor, but unlike the MT3 arbor in the Jacobs which was semi-hard, this MT3 arbor that came with the Albretch was "very" hard, so I had to use my Metabo angle grinder with the cut-off wheel to get it to length (you were right Barry, the Metabo "does" come very handy in the shop):






Here it is ready for use:






I will report later how well it does 


By the way, this means that my Jacobs 16N is now for sale, at 1/2 price as most/all that I sell. Email me if interested.

Will


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## darkzero

wquiles said:


> I like so much the Albretch that I got for my mill, that I decided to try one out for the TS on my 12x lathe.


 
Nice! Maybe one day I will get to own a Albrecht but I'm sure the Bison will keep me happy for a long time. It's so much more convenient using a keyless chuck in the tail stock.


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## 65535

darkzero said:


> Nice! Maybe one day I will get to own a Albrecht but I'm sure the Bison will keep me happy for a long time. It's so much more convenient using a *keyed* chuck in the tail stock.



Fixed for you. :thumbsup:


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## precisionworks

Hey Will, this thread is about the superb Bison CNC chuck, not some old, worn out Albrecht :nana:

It looks like the arbor on the Jacobs Super Chuck has spun in the tail stock ram, look closely at the shiny bands below (left side of arbor, closest to the chuck):







You probably need to by a MT3 finishing reamer & ream your tail stock taper just enough to remove the damage. Then, when you next seat either the Jacobs or the Albrecht, fully retract the jaws & shwack the end of the chuck with either a urethane faced hammer or a solid copper hammer. The chuck should be seated firmly enough that it takes a hard twist on the tail stock wheel to disengage the arbor.

I ream my South Bend tail stock every now & then, whenever I forget to seat the chuck :shakehead


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## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> It looks like the arbor on the Jacobs Super Chuck has spun in the tail stock ram, look closely at the shiny bands below (left side of arbor, closest to the chuck):
> ...
> You probably need to by a MT3 finishing reamer & ream your tail stock taper just enough to remove the damage.



The first few times I used the Jacobs chuck in the TS I did not tapped it with the soft hammer hard enough, so it spun a couple of times. After that I knew to get it seated properly, so it has not spun again. Now it takes a very hard twist on the tail stock to remove the arbor. Live and learn.

Where can I find/buy an MT3 finishing reamer?

EDIT: Something like this? 

Will


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## darkzero

wquiles said:


> The first few times I used the Jacobs chuck in the TS I did not tapped it with the soft hammer hard enough, so it spun a couple of times. After that I knew to get it seated properly, so it has not spun again. Now it takes a very hard twist on the tail stock to remove the arbor. Live and learn.
> 
> Where can I find/buy an MT3 finishing reamer?
> 
> EDIT: Something like this?
> 
> Will


 
Can't view what was in your shopping cart in your link. Should be something like this.

Luckily I have not spun one yet, I always wack mine twice with a rubber mallet although it's not a heavy weight soft face hammer like Barry recommends but I've been ok (even broke a drill bit the other day).

Question, if it does ever happen, I assume the finishing reamer should be used by hand? I've only used reamers "under power". Should the tailstock ram be removed when reaming so the reamer doesn't interfere with the screw shaft? The tailstock on the PM 12x36 seems very short compared to others but are the MT reamers standard in length? How about the MT arbor, does it need to be refinished? Say 600 git sandpaper would do the job?

What are these wipers used for? I've never seen one with a morse taper though.


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## wquiles

Opps, yes, that was the exact item


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## precisionworks

http://cgi.ebay.com/Morse-Taper-#3-...temQQimsxZ20100203?IMSfp=TL100203172004r23950

Enco is awfully proud of a reamer that cost not much in Yen 



> I assume the finishing reamer should be used by hand?


That's correct, *only* by hand power as only a few tenths need to be removed. Take the chuck off the head stock, insert the correct taper dead center, place the dead center point against the center hole in the square drive of the reamer. Flood the reamer with Tap Magic or equal. Bring up the tail stock, lock it down, feed the ram into the reamer until contact is made, start turning the reamer with a 12" or 15" Cresent wrench while applying more pressure with the feed wheel. Some tail stock tapers are pretty soft & ream fast, so don't get carried away. Others, like my South Bend, are over 55 HRc and require all the pressure that can be applied by the ram, and all the torque that can be applied by arm strong :twothumbs

Once you feel it engage & cut, make one complete turn of the reamer, move the TS back, brush the reamer flutes clean & inspect the TS bore for defects. If damage is still visible, ream again, inspect, etc.



> How about the MT arbor, does it need to be refinished?


Depends on the degree of scoring. If lightly scored, maroon ScotchBrite may clean it up. If heavily scored, replacement is a better option, as it can re damage the taper.



> What are these wipers used for?


They provide a fast way to clean the taper of gunk, usually caused by flood lubricant.


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## wquiles

Gotcha, thanks. Might as well buy the USA-made Reamer


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## darkzero

Cool, thanks Barry!


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## wquiles

precisionworks said:


> Hey Will, this thread is about the superb Bison CNC chuck, not some old, worn out Albrecht :nana:
> 
> It looks like the arbor on the Jacobs Super Chuck has spun in the tail stock ram, look closely at the shiny bands below (left side of arbor, closest to the chuck):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You probably need to by a MT3 finishing reamer & ream your tail stock taper just enough to remove the damage. Then, when you next seat either the Jacobs or the Albrecht, fully retract the jaws & shwack the end of the chuck with either a urethane faced hammer or a solid copper hammer. The chuck should be seated firmly enough that it takes a hard twist on the tail stock wheel to disengage the arbor.
> 
> I ream my South Bend tail stock every now & then, whenever I forget to seat the chuck :shakehead



Remember this? Well, fixing this has not been as trivial as just buying a good finish reamer 

As it turns out the MT3 hole was badly machined in Asia - what are the odds of that? 

I first started by creating a steel pointy end to align the hand reamer:











Then using a wrench start the slow and tedious process of restoring the inside surface:






I used layout fluid and verified where I now had a good contact surface. Basically although I have solid contact, it is not nearly as solid as it could be since I only have contact on the last 1/3 of the MT3 surface!:











The thing is that I removed some of the scoring, but then the tool stopped cutting in that area, and continued cutting on the farthest end, which is where the layout fluid is indicating good contact, but it is not cutting near the hole opening where I need to smooth more the area:






So basically I found that I did have some light scoring (as in the photo above), but that was just a small part of it. The problem is that the hole was not cut evenly at the factory - my guess a worn out reamer. 

Since the surface reamer cuts so lightly, and it is obvious I have to re-cut the hole properly, I ordered a new set of rougher/finisher hand reamers to do this job properly:
The thing is that I removed some of the scoring, but then the tool stopped cutting in that area, and continued cutting on the farthest end:











More to follow ...


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## darkzero

wquiles said:


> I used layout fluid and verified where I now had a good contact surface.


 
Will, have you tried checking the differences in contact area between any name brand "higher quality" arbors & less expensive China arbors? Very curious in the differences if significant. :thinking:


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## wquiles

darkzero said:


> Will, have you tried checking the differences in contact area between any name brand "higher quality" arbors & less expensive China arbors? Very curious in the differences if significant. :thinking:



Yup, that was the first thing I tried, and surprisingly enough all 3 of the MT3 arbors (different brands/sources) I tried were fairly even in terms of the contact area with the hole in the TS - this was the key piece of data that convinced me that the hole was just reamed with a worn reamer, or the person(s) doing it did not care much about this part of the job


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## StrikerDown

Now you have me wondering about the tail on my lathe!

Just wondering why you didn't turn a 60 degree taper on the pointy device? 
Or use the dead center that came with the lathe?


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## wquiles

StrikerDown said:


> Just wondering why you didn't turn a 60 degree taper on the pointy device?


I don't need an exact 60 deg nor specific tip shape - just a slightly larger angle than the one in the reamer so that the reamer is centered.



StrikerDown said:


> Or use the dead center that came with the lathe?


Again, no need. Once you turn a new tip on whatever metal on your chuck (I happen to use drill rod), it will by definition be at zero TIR, so it will be plenty good for this manual reaming operation. Of course, every time I remove and remount the metal tip, I have to re-cut it to make sure that again it is at zero TIR.


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## ICUDoc

"The thing is that I removed some of the scoring, but then the tool stopped cutting in that area, and continued cutting on the farthest end, which is where the layout fluid is indicating good contact, but it is not cutting near the hole opening where I need to smooth more the area:"
wquiles is this not exactly what you want / expect? The good contact is in the narrow part of the lumen, so you need to ream that out first and only then will you start taking metal off the "bad" part (which is scored)??


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## wquiles

ICUDoc said:


> wquiles is this not exactly what you want / expect? The good contact is in the narrow part of the lumen, so you need to ream that out first and only then will you start taking metal off the "bad" part (which is scored)??



Except for the contact on the bottom third of the hole, nothing else makes good contact - that is the problem. I should have uniform contact throughout the complete hole. Right now I don't have it, so I have to re-cut the hole to proper size/shape, which is why I got the MT3 rougher.


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## precisionworks

Just a couple of thoughts ...

My reamer has a square shank, not the MT tang that your reamer has. If you buy a reamer with a square shank, it is lots easier to turn with a big Crescent wrench.

To support the reamer tang, remove the lathe chuck & insert a dead center. Much easier than turning a point on a rod, and better support for the reamer tang.



> the tool stopped cutting in that area, and continued cutting on the farthest end


You may need to get a new tail stock ram. Even though you can ream the one you have, it is possible that so much needs to be removed that the resulting bore will be over sized when it finally cleans up. If that happens, you may not be able to seat any tooling.


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## wquiles

Gotcha - thanks for the heads-up. Hopefully I will only have to take off a small amount of metal to get things trued. Like with the restoration of the DTM toolpost, there is a neat aspect of fitting and removing a small amount of metal at a time 

I will post some pictures once I get more work done on this.


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## madbee

Will, I too just bought an Albretch keyless with integral R8. Get this, it is in new condition and had a buy-it-now of $100 !! I wouldn't have known it's value if it were not for your posts, thanks. Now that you've used it for a while, have you had any lock-ups where you needed to use a tool to unlock? I was thinking about purchasing a strap wrench for this purpose so I won't scratch it.



wquiles said:


> It took me all of 5-10 seconds to realize:
> - I was not dreaming - the "buy it now" was incredibly low
> - the pictures did show the right item, with the R8 shank, in new condition
> - best price I have see on special was close to $230-240
> - the seller's feedback was good
> 
> so without further though I hit the "buy it now" button!


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## wquiles

madbee said:


> Now that you've used it for a while, have you had any lock-ups where you needed to use a tool to unlock? I was thinking about purchasing a strap wrench for this purpose so I won't scratch it.



Not yet, but I do keep a small strap wrench close-by just in case.


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## madbee

Will, did you ever measure the runout of your Albrecht w/ Integral R8? I was curious since mine seems to be way off...maybe that's why mine was so cheap.:thinking:


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## wquiles

I haven't yet - I have not played much with the mill lately :mecry:


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## precisionworks

> mine seems to be way off...


When an Albrecht has over .001" runout, it's most likely caused by worn jaws. They are easy to replace and not expensive.


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## madbee

This basically looks brand new, no sign of usage on the jaws. I tried with a dowl pin, end mills, and a center drill and get around .005" runout. If I measure the runout at the top of the Albrecht body (the shell?) then I get about .001 If I measure at the bottom, just above the jaws on the large bevel (the hood?), I get about .005 too. I tried this several times. How is this possible, I must be doing something wrong. At the base of the R8 portion of the chuck, there seems to be very little vertical scores on it as if something was slid over it, maybe during assemble or maybe it was disassembled previously in an attempt to fix this. Since this is an integral R8, I am not sure what comes apart anyway.

If I mount the Chineese R8 arbor that came with the mill kit (still without chuck mounted) then it indicates about .0003 runout. I am using a Compac dial indicator with .0001 graduations.

I would hate to send this back. It is soooo beautiful.:mecry:


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## madbee

Will, one day when you get to come out and play again, I would be curious as to what your runout was, but more importantly, if you could just check the runout on the large beveled surface (the hood) just above the jaws, I would greatly appreciate it. It just seems too coincidental that my body is off the same amount and location as the jaws....otherwise I would just think it was the jaws and get a new set or inspect them for dings. Thanks.




wquiles said:


> I haven't yet - I have not played much with the mill lately :mecry:


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## gadget_lover

You guys have done it again. I don't need the accuracy of the Albrecht, but I noticed that Rutland Tools has Rohm Supra keyless chucks on sale for about 1/2 off. There is a Rutland sales office 1 block from my office.

$57 got me a brand new 1/2" capacity chuck. (J6 mount) Another $6 for the arbor and I was good to go. It's nice and smooth operating. A turned pin was showing less than .0015 TIR at 3 inches from the chuck. 

I'm happy. I'll be using it only for drilling.

Daniel


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## madbee

Daniel, sounds like an excellent deal...and precision too.


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## darkzero

gadget_lover said:


> You guys have done it again. I don't need the accuracy of the Albrecht, but I noticed that Rutland Tools has Rohm Supra keyless chucks on sale for about 1/2 off. There is a Rutland sales office 1 block from my office.
> 
> $57 got me a brand new 1/2" capacity chuck. (J6 mount) Another $6 for the arbor and I was good to go. It's nice and smooth operating. A turned pin was showing less than .0015 TIR at 3 inches from the chuck.
> 
> I'm happy. I'll be using it only for drilling.
> 
> Daniel


 
Good deal Daniel, thanks for sharing. Was it through ebay? I'd like to get one to use on the drill press.

I just bought something from Rutland a couple days ago (their ebay price was much cheaper). To my surprise it was delivered the very next day, shipped out of their Chatsworth location wich is only 5 mins away also very close to Travers. Good to know there's another tool supplier in my area.


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## gadget_lover

Did not go through ebay. Embarassingly, it did not occur to me to check there. 
I did, however drive from eBay's offices to the Rutland store. Don't tell anyone.  

It was listed in the sale catalog, promo code 03102. You can see the sale catalog online at http://rutlandonsale.dirxioncdn.com/03102/WebProject.asp?CodeId=7.2.2.6&BookCode=03210flx# The chucks are on page 41


Daniel


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## wquiles

So I played some more with the TS on my PM lathe ...

I tried these 3 targets (top to bottom - Royal, Albrecht or Jacobs, China):







As it turns out, although the 3 pieces are MT3, they don't have the same exact taper angle :mecry:

Some engage more towards the back:






some more towards the front:






and each of the cutters that I used has a slightly different taper angle, so I concentrated on getting the combination of cutter that game me the most contact with the drill chuck arbor since that is the one I "need" to stay put!:






With the cutter/angle that I kept the Royal has the least engagement, but that is also the only one that is supposed to rotate, so it still works well.


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## madbee

Will, I was finally able to mount my Albrecht integral R8 chuck in another mill at a machine shop and it was "perfect" and had no detectable runout. Just like the unfortunate inconsistencies you are seeing in your MT arbors, the R8 arbors I have vary quite a bit too. I am sure that the Albrecht should have a geometry that is within specifications and could mount accurately in any spindle. My runout issue is coming from my spindle which has visible machining issues at the tapered portion.


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## precisionworks

> My runout issue is coming from my spindle which has visible machining issues at the tapered portion.


You'll need to remove the spindle from the machine & send it off for a regrind. Wells Index charges less than anyone else for this service. The cost is $120 to touch up the spindle taper, if that's all that needs to be done. Most people have Wells install new bearings at the same time, as the bearings that come with most Asian mills are lowest quality (highest run out). 

Call Rick at (231) 759-0950 to discuss your options.


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## madbee

Thanks for the referral PrecisionWorks, but I already spoke with QualityMachineTools and they are going to take care of it. They are ordering a new spindle for me. At least I am excited to know my Albrecht is good :twothumbs


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## StrikerDown

precisionworks said:


> You'll need to remove the spindle from the machine & send it off for a regrind. Wells Index charges less than anyone else for this service. The cost is $120 to touch up the spindle taper, if that's all that needs to be done. Most people have Wells install new bearings at the same time, as the bearings that come with most Asian mills are lowest quality (highest run out).
> 
> Call Rick at (231) 759-0950 to discuss your options.




Barry,

Speaking of mills did you replace your bearings?


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## precisionworks

Not yet, Ray 

I'm close to finishing a customer project that's kept me out of the shop for the past 6-8 weeks. Friday should wrap that one up :twothumbs

Next in line is building the rotary phase converter for the lathe. To start a gear head lathe that has no clutch requires an idler at least 2x the size of the lathe motor - so I went 3X to be on the safe side. Joe's Junk Jungle had a really nice U S Electric Motor (Emerson) in 10hp, 1.25 service factor, Class F insulation, and the shaft turned smoothly. $50 included loading it into my truck - all 135# of it.






The motor frame is aluminum, which should be great for heat management. I pulled both end bells to feel the bearings & neither one needs replacement. Still have to frame up a mount for the pony motor & for the fused disconnect - I'll start a new thread soon.

The bearings are on the back burner, and it may be fall or winter before they are replaced.


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