# Surefire P60L (6PL and G2L) runtimes



## chevrofreak (Oct 6, 2007)

I bought a real cheap used G2 (Thanks JasonC8301!) to put the P60L module from the 6PL in so all runtimes would be done with the same sample.

Thermal regulation drops the output significantly in the Nitrolon body of the G2, and when I picked the light up a few minutes after the RCR123 runtime had finished the bezel was quite hot. The module itself must have been at a very high temperature. Makes me wonder just how long the LED will survive.


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## WildChild (Oct 6, 2007)

chevrofreak said:


> I bought a real cheap used G2 (Thanks JasonC8301!) to put the P60L module from the 6PL in so all runtimes would be done with the same sample.
> 
> Thermal regulation drops the output significantly in the Nitrolon body of the G2, and when I picked the light up a few minutes after the RCR123 runtime had finished the bezel was quite hot. The module itself must have been at a very high temperature. Makes me wonder just how long the LED will survive.



Thanks chev! The long awaited runtime graphes for the P60L! What do you mean by "quite hot" for the G2L? How can you compare it to another light (for example L2D)? For sure, over time plastic will become hot if there is a heat source inside. And this heat source probably doesn't need to be that hot to give the feeling over time. If the thermal regulation does correctly its job, the module is probably not that hot... or at an acceptable level for the LED itself. Anyway, if the LED fail, I guess SureFire will warranty it!


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## chevrofreak (Oct 6, 2007)

I let the G2L run for about 15 minutes then took the module out and it was too hot to hold in my hand for more than a fraction of a second. My infrared thermometer showed 136F for the temperature of the aluminum reflector, but I don't know how accurate that is. Once it was exposed to air the temperature dropped very rapidly.


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## lightemup (Oct 6, 2007)

VERY nice work 

A couple of questions:


1. With your findings, do you think if I have a g2 or g2z and put a 6p or 6pd bezel on it that it would then perform like in a 6pl in your runtime test?

For example i've got my p60L in a 6pd bezel on a g2z body and tailcap 


2. Do you think the 6pl etc would run on a pila 168 battery? My L4 runs like a champ on them.


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## chevrofreak (Oct 6, 2007)

lightemup said:


> VERY nice work
> 
> A couple of questions:
> 
> ...



It should help quite a bit. It'd probably fall somewhere right between the 6PL and G2L for output and runtime.

The L4 uses a boost circuit, so that allows it to run great on a 168. I tried a 168 with the P60L and the output was far far lower.


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## Illum (Oct 6, 2007)

the EL123A graph looks very peculiar.....why the sudden drop from the beginning? temperature related?


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## Schuey2002 (Oct 6, 2007)

Woo-hoo! This is exactly what I have been waiting for... :rock:

Excellent job, chevrofreak!


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## WildChild (Oct 7, 2007)

Illum_the_nation said:


> the EL123A graph looks very peculiar.....why the sudden drop from the beginning? temperature related?



Yes, the drop is temperature related. Member Size15 said that the module has a thermal regulation so it doesn't overheat in the plastic body of the G2L. Same thing with the Mag-LED that has a far worse thermal path for the heat to escape.


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## woodrow (Oct 13, 2007)

Chevrofreak,
Thanks for your hard work as always. I am glad I did not buy the g2 version. I like the 6pl flatter runtime. Because of your charts, I will make the better (for me) buying decision. Aprox 80 lumans for three hours...not bad. Plus, my first cool light was a 6p back in 89. It will be nice to have another. Thanks again!


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## elgarak (Oct 13, 2007)

woodrow said:


> Chevrofreak,
> Thanks for your hard work as always. I am glad I did not buy the g2 version. I like the 6pl flatter runtime. Because of your charts, I will make the better (for me) buying decision. Aprox 80 lumans for three hours...not bad. Plus, my first cool light was a 6p back in 89. It will be nice to have another. Thanks again!


You are aware that the drop-in used in the 6PL and the G2L are exactly identical? You could just get the cheaper G2L and put the lamp module in you 6P.


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## WildChild (Oct 13, 2007)

woodrow said:


> Chevrofreak,
> Thanks for your hard work as always. I am glad I did not buy the g2 version. I like the 6pl flatter runtime. Because of your charts, I will make the better (for me) buying decision. Aprox 80 lumans for three hours...not bad. Plus, my first cool light was a 6p back in 89. It will be nice to have another. Thanks again!



The difference between 75 lumens and 60 lumens isn't great... It's hard to notice it! The G2L is a great light. The big drop is caused by thermal regulation because it has a plastic body that doesn't conduct well heat. After the thermal drop, the output is quite flat!


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## woodrow (Oct 18, 2007)

elgarak, Wildchild... I see your point. I was not that clear in my comment. I wish my LP M1-R was a little brighter than it is with the 18650 in it, and I believe it is at least 80 lumans. Also, I no longer have my origional 6p. (have no idea what I did with it...but I b/s/t a lot of lights)

After buying a G2 (incan) today to be a baseline in review comparisons, I might just buy the drop in for that. It is a good light...almost as good as my old gpz.


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## greenLED (Oct 25, 2007)

I see now where the "12 hour runtime" on SF's webpage is coming from...


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## cave dave (Oct 25, 2007)

any word when surefire will make just the modules available?


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## greenLED (Oct 25, 2007)

By mid-November is what I was told earlier today by a SF dealer.


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## cave dave (Oct 25, 2007)

greenLED said:


> I see now where the "12 hour runtime" on SF's webpage is coming from...


Sure, if you don't mind 2 lumen output. :candle:


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## Bullzeyebill (Oct 25, 2007)

Add another CR123 for longer regulated runtime. Here is where the 9P will come in usefull.

Bill


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## nanotech17 (Oct 26, 2007)

Hi,
i know chevro has done the test,but can this module accept 2x4.2v in other hostt which is not plastic without damaging the module?
I have got 1 in hand but kind of mix feeling to run it with 2x4.2v.
Thanks.


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## Sgt. LED (Nov 28, 2007)

Any chance we could get a runtime test with the G2L with Al head and Lexan lens? Just wanting to see if the Al head makes up the difference or not.


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## lightinsky (Nov 28, 2007)

When you compare the runtime of the 6PL and G2L I think the G2L is a better bet because you get approx. 90 more minutes of bright 60 Lumen light after the 6PL ran for 3 hours at 75 Lumens regulated then drops out of regulation for the next 90 minutes while the G2L is still going strong at a pretty bright 60 Lumens run til 4 hours 30 minutes which at this point the 6PL is much dimmer on the charts. Just my thought and opinion.


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## geepondy (Nov 28, 2007)

I love the runtimes of these lights on regular CR123s as well. I'm looking at the G2L and after it drops out of regulation, you still get another three hours of more then 5 lumen light. Looks like a true moon mode. I just wish the G2L came with a clickie, it might be enough to persuade me to get one.


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## chevrofreak (Nov 30, 2007)

Sgt. LED said:


> Any chance we could get a runtime test with the G2L with Al head and Lexan lens? Just wanting to see if the Al head makes up the difference or not.



I don't have an aluminum head with a lexan window, and I don't want to switch the windows between the two lights I have since the 6PL doesn't belong to me.


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## jbviau (Nov 30, 2007)

I would think that a runtime test with any aluminum head (regardless of whether the lens is lexan or pyrex) would be informative re: sinking heat away from the LED, no? Whichever lens SF has started to ship now with the aluminum heads on G2Ls (lost track), I can't imagine it changing the results of the runtime test. Anyway, count me in as someone else interested in seeing this test done if possible!

p.s. Thanks a bunch for what you've already posted, chevrofreak! Truly useful info.


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## Bullzeyebill (Nov 30, 2007)

One of you guys with the new Al bezel for the G2L should let Chevrofreak borrow it for a test. Be kind and send postage for return trip. Otherwise, someone with a lightmeter could do a simple bounce off ceiling runtime. This basic procedure would be accurate enough for runtime/output and would show any large or subtle drop off in output.

Billl


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## mx125 (Dec 13, 2007)

Another question on these runtimes. Chevro's runtimes graphs did certainly clear up the issue of regulation . . as they are dead flat after the thermal correction . . .but . . 

Some mentioned earlier that the initial brightness on fresh cells was never seen again regardless of heat. I would assume this is a buck circuit so above the threshhold should hold output. I wonder if Chevrofreak or others can comment on output if used intermittently? ie. Will I get a flat the 75+ lumens (100% output) for a regulated number of hours using 10 second to 1 min bursts . . or is the true regulated level closer to 60?


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## soffiler (Dec 27, 2007)

Bullzeyebill said:


> One of you guys with the new Al bezel for the G2L should let Chevrofreak borrow it for a test. Be kind and send postage for return trip. Otherwise, someone with a lightmeter could do a simple bounce off ceiling runtime. This basic procedure would be accurate enough for runtime/output and would show any large or subtle drop off in output.
> 
> Billl


 
I just completed a runtime test on my G2L with aluminum bezel. I use an Extech 401036 datalogging meter in a rudimentary light box with the hotspot pointed directly at the photo sensor - this method accurately shows when output drops to 50% (or any number you choose to report) but it does not allow for an estimation of lumens. One of these days...

Anyway, I measured 4 hrs 10 min (taking data at 30-sec intervals) to reach 50% of initial stable output on Ray-O-Vac CR123A cells. These are very healthy cells - I measured three out of a batch of 20 on the West Mt. Radio CBA at 1 amp discharge rate, and got an average of 3.20 watt-hr per cell, which puts them right at the top of the heap when compared with the vast quantities of CR123A data measured by Silverfox.

I'd say this Al-bezel unit probably cools a bit better than a plastic-bezel unit, so the thermal regulation takes longer to kick in, evidenced by the shorter runtime vs. the 4:35 measured by chevrofreak. But this is not purely scientific; mine is a different unit with possible differences in the Vf of the emitter and minor efficiency variations in the driver due to component tolerances, not to mention possible minor differences in the energy capacity of the cells I used. I don't think all these differences add up to 25 minutes, however.


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## Bullzeyebill (Dec 27, 2007)

soffiler said:


> I just completed a runtime test on my G2L with aluminum bezel. I use an Extech 401036 datalogging meter in a rudimentary light box with the hotspot pointed directly at the photo sensor - this method accurately shows when output drops to 50% (or any number you choose to report) but it does not allow for an estimation of lumens. One of these days...
> 
> Anyway, I measured 4 hrs 10 min (taking data at 30-sec intervals) to reach 50% of initial stable output on Ray-O-Vac CR123A cells. These are very healthy cells - I measured three out of a batch of 20 on the West Mt. Radio CBA at 1 amp discharge rate, and got an average of 3.20 watt-hr per cell, which puts them right at the top of the heap when compared with the vast quantities of CR123A data measured by Silverfox.
> 
> I'd say this Al-bezel unit probably cools a bit better than a plastic-bezel unit, so the thermal regulation takes longer to kick in, evidenced ey the shorter runtime vs. the 4:35 measured by chevrofreak. But this is not purely scientific; mine is a different unit with possible differences in the Vf of the emitter and minor efficiency variations in the driver due to component tolerances, not to mention possible minor differences in the energy capacity of the cells I used. I don't think all these differences add up to 25 minutes, however.



You can do the bounce I mentioned and get some good data on the overall output drop off. You can also test some of your other lights in the same enviornment, same positions for lightmeter and flashlights, and get comparisions of output of different lights which will sort of give you estimates of lumen output for your various lights.

Bill


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Dec 27, 2007)

Nice to know this stuff! 

The P60L out of my 6PL is in a Brinkmann rechargeable Maxfire with two 17500. In that light it would probably get very hot. But that's okay because I usually only play with rather than use most of my lights.


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## soffiler (Dec 28, 2007)

Bullzeyebill said:


> You can do the bounce I mentioned and get some good data on the overall output drop off. You can also test some of your other lights in the same enviornment, same positions for lightmeter and flashlights, and get comparisions of output of different lights which will sort of give you estimates of lumen output for your various lights.
> 
> Bill


 
Not sure what you're getting at. Whether measuring bounce off a ceiling, or the intensity of the hotspot (what I did) you can watch the overall output drop off either way. That's how I am able to report 4:10 to 50% of initial stable output. When the hotspot drops to 50% of its intial value, overall lumens have dropped to 50% also.


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## Bullzeyebill (Dec 28, 2007)

What I suggested would give you an estimation of lumens when compared to your other lights. That is the one thing that you said that your lux reading runtime could not do, give you an estimation of lumens.

Bill


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## yaesumofo (Dec 29, 2007)

The huge difference between the G2 and 6P is interesting.
My P60l doesn't get that hot. I wonder why?
Yasumofo


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## Sgt. LED (Dec 29, 2007)

Mine doesn't get that hot either! Maybe we got the same batch.


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## soffiler (Dec 29, 2007)

I was hoping to use the IR thermometer to watch the external temp on my Al bezel during the runtime test, but other things got in the way that day. As I happened past the test setup a couple times I just touched the bezel with my finger, and it wasn't really all that warm.


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## magic_elf (Jan 31, 2008)

Has anyone tried emailing SureFire regarding this runtime?
I mean it seems really overrated advertised as 11 hours of the 6PL.

Doesn't make sense, since the advertised runtimes for the L1 Cree is 1.5 hours and 16 hours respectively and these have been independantly tested to actually maintain regulation over the advertised runtimes.


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## soffiler (Feb 7, 2008)

magic_elf said:


> Has anyone tried emailing SureFire regarding this runtime?
> I mean it seems really overrated advertised as 11 hours of the 6PL.
> 
> Doesn't make sense, since the advertised runtimes for the L1 Cree is 1.5 hours and 16 hours respectively and these have been independantly tested to actually maintain regulation over the advertised runtimes.


 
At the SHOT show, the data tag next to the G2L display showed the numbers we already knew: 4 hours max output plus x hours (sorry, don't recall the exact value, maybe 5-plus?) to a level of 5 lumens.

Also seen at SHOT: the G3L has an optional dropin with 200 lumens of output. Not sure if that's news on CPF or not; I just got home and I'm way behind. I inquired whether it would also work in the G2L and I was told "not enough voltage". This from a Sales lackey, who often get the technical details wrong.


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## Bullzeyebill (Feb 7, 2008)

soffiler said:


> At the SHOT show, the data tag next to the G2L display showed the numbers we already knew: 4 hours max output plus x hours (sorry, don't recall the exact value, maybe 5-plus?) to a level of 5 lumens.
> 
> Also seen at SHOT: the G3L has an optional dropin with 200 lumens of output. Not sure if that's news on CPF or not; I just got home and I'm way behind. I inquired whether it would also work in the G2L and I was told "not enough voltage". This from a Sales lackey, who often get the technical details wrong.



I just checked my Surefire Illuminations Tools Catalogue 2008, which I picked up at the Surefire booth, and it shows the 6P LED, G2 LED, G3 LED, Z2 LED, G2Z LED, and C2 LED as having the 80/200 lumen option. I talked to one of the senior reps at the booth and he said that they hope to get the new 200 lumen P61L out soon.

Bill


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## soffiler (Feb 7, 2008)

Bullzeyebill said:


> I just checked my Surefire Illuminations Tools Catalogue 2008, which I picked up at the Surefire booth, and it shows the 6P LED, G2 LED, G3 LED, Z2 LED, G2Z LED, and C2 LED as having the 80/200 lumen option. I talked to one of the senior reps at the booth and he said that they hope to get the new 200 lumen P61L out soon.
> 
> Bill


 

Excellent! When they (lackey sales rep at SHOT booth) told me the new drop-in was a "P61L" I asked whether it should be called a P91L due to their claimed need for more voltage. Lackey just shrugged. Made me think it really WAS going to be compatible with the 2-cell products, after all. However, only G3L data tag on display included "80/200 lumens"; G2L sitting directly beside it was "80 lumens". Sales lackies on booth simply didn't understand the details. Maybe you can tell what I think of sales lackies in general :thumbsdow

I grabbed an '08 catalog too, but I threw it in with all of our booth stuff which is shipped via truck freight. I won't have it for a couple weeks.


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## roymail (Feb 7, 2008)

I don't claim to know much, but I don't understand how using an aluminum head on the G2L is going to change all that much regarding heat sinking. Nearly the entire lamp module is pressed into the plastic body... the head just covers it and the lexan lens holds it down.

I just don't see how the aluminum head could help much with deferring heat since it doesn't have any direct contact with the lamp module. If I'm wrong, it'll be the first time... _yeah, right!_ 

Additionally, here's something from Flavio at BugOutGear about running their high powered Premium Plus drop-in in G2/G3 lights.

*Re: BOG "Premium Plus" Cree module (pics and beam)* 
It'll run just fine in a G2 and with no head gap at all! We ran our Cree during runtime tests for 100 minutes continuous and it got warm, but not so bad you wouldn't be able to hold it. Once it falls out of regulation (105 minutes), then you can run it for 3 additional hours continous with minimal heat.

Let me know if you have any further questions.

Best Regards,
Flavio
BugoutGearUSA.com

_____________________________________


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## soffiler (Feb 7, 2008)

I've got my G2L apart in my hands right now. The lamp module is a fairly thick hunk of aluminum. It makes firm contact with the aluminum bezel at the top, near the lens. Looks like a decent heat-transfer situation to me.


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## PlayboyJoeShmoe (Feb 7, 2008)

Agree. The LED module does not touch the lens, instead there is a "ledge" where aluminum touches aluminum.

When I was testing a DX Seoul drop in the head got to nearly 150F so I guess the heat is going SOMEWHERE....


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## roymail (Feb 7, 2008)

OK, thanks for the clarification on that. Still learning. :thinking:


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## Size15's (Feb 9, 2008)

The P61L will be the high output version of the P60L and can be used in any light that the P60L can be (so that's two-SF123A and three-SF123A standard body models such as the 6P/9P etc).
Note that ideally these would not be used in shock isolated bezels (such as the M2 and Z32) - not only do they not require the shock isolation but the thermal management is not as efficient compared to a standard 6PL/G2L bezel


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## soffiler (Feb 12, 2008)

Size15's said:


> The P61L will be the high output version of the P60L and can be used in any light that the P60L can be (so that's two-SF123A and three-SF123A standard body models such as the 6P/9P etc).
> Note that ideally these would not be used in shock isolated bezels (such as the M2 and Z32) - not only do they not require the shock isolation but the thermal management is not as efficient compared to a standard 6PL/G2L bezel


 

Can you clarify the lumen rating? I've been hearing 120 in this thread and others; yet the data card on the G3L booth display at SHOT said 200. (Actually it said literally "80/200" covering both P60L and P61L)


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## dougie (Feb 12, 2008)

Steve,

Depending how much confidence you place in what the 2008 catalogs say the P61L starts at 200 lumens and then steadily drops to 100 lumens?

I assume that this is thermal regulation dropping the current back to prevent thermal degradation of the LED? How quickly the drop takes place is anyones' guess until it is out and can be measured.

On a side note even if it drops back quickly the option of having 100-200 lumens from an original Surefire module is comforting?

Doug


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## Size15's (Feb 12, 2008)

SureFire certainly appear to want the P61L to output 200 lumens when you activate the light. As noted quite how long SureFire consider it wise to maintain that output constant-on is something we don't yet know.

Al


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## Bullzeyebill (Feb 12, 2008)

Size15's said:


> SureFire certainly appear to want the P61L to output 200 lumens when you activate the light. As noted quick how long SureFire consider it wise to maintain that output constant-on is something we don't yet know.
> 
> Al



With a good stepdown regulator and 3 CR123's it will be able to maintain 200 lumens for awhile.

Bill


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## soffiler (Feb 12, 2008)

Bullzeyebill said:


> With a good stepdown regulator and 3 CR123's it will be able to maintain 200 lumens for awhile.
> 
> Bill


 
I thought Size15's comment was related specifically to heat, but I guess you're right; it's the classic balancing act between light output and heat buildup and battery runtime.


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## Size15's (Feb 12, 2008)

I was actually mostly commenting from the heat perspective


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## woodrow (Feb 14, 2008)

I am looking to the P61L coming out...after making an impulse buy of an 6PL at Lowe's today... I am actually pretty impressed with the p60L as well. Not as bright as my hotly driven Q5 lights...but a nice beam, decent tint, and still pretty bright. Not to mention more than decent runtime. I would have killed for this led back in the 80's when getting 2x123a's for $11 was a heck of a deal!


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## starburst (Mar 31, 2008)

I picked up a G2 LED at Lowes today, after using it around the house for 30 to 45 min. it's obvious heat is being pulled out into the aluminum head which is good.
It seem's to be a little lighter than the original 6P and if it will run 4 to 5 hour's around 80 lumen's that will be awsome. The tailcap is exceptionaly smooth very easy on/off one hand operation is a breeze. It look's to me the tint is USWO very white as white as any of My other light's. Runtime should hold up for Me as most run's will only be 10 to 15 minutes at a time. After 12 hour's you might see to get your key in the door, but looking a 100 yd's down the road at a deer is not gonna happen.

I like it!!!

:wave:


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## 270winchester (Mar 31, 2008)

I agree. I have brighter LED in the P6 form, but if I were using it for a long job(fixing stuff, hike, etc) I usually use the G2L. The runtime is crazy even a year ago for 80 lumens out the front.


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## FlashSpyJ (May 28, 2008)

sooooo.... no news on the P61L huh....


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## CM (Aug 18, 2008)

Bump. I'm getting into these P60L's


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## Bullzeyebill (Aug 18, 2008)

CM, clear some of your PM's

Bill


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