# The Tint Snob Thread



## Random Dan (Jan 23, 2017)

I know there's a lot of us here so I was surprised that I couldn't find a dedicated thread.
This shall henceforth be a safe and supportive environment to discuss all things related to tint snob friendly emitters and the lights that house them.

My current favorite is my D25A with a Nichia 219C 4000k. I'm pretty well convinced that 4000k is my favorite color temp and the color rendering of the Nichia is excellent. My ZL SC600 mkIII HI and D25Cvn 4000k XP-L are close contenders but not on a level with the 219C. I'm stoked for the SC5c that has shown up on ZL's spreadsheet. I had an SC5Fc which I returned due to a driver issue, but I loved the tint and color rendering. The SC5c promises the same 4000k and 2-step macadam ellipse but with 93-95 CRI which sounds about perfect for me.

Seems like ZL and Eagletac are really leading the charge for good tint :thumbsup:

What's your favorite light for tint quality?


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## Tejasandre (Jan 23, 2017)

Sigma with 3 219c's


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## Tachead (Jan 24, 2017)

Well, I am not sure if it is my favorite but my cheap little Astrolux A01 with a Nichia 219B 4000K(SW40) R9050 is definitely up there. I also like my Zebralight H600Fc&d with the 4000 & 5000K Cree XM-L2 Easywhite. And, my Eagletac D25C with a Nichia 219A 4500K(SW45) is not bad either.


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## K2-bk-bl-rd (Jan 24, 2017)

I happen to really like my Mcgizmo TerraRam, with a XPG2 4500K. The tint is golden white, and reminds me of a super white incandescent.


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## night.hoodie (Jan 24, 2017)

Random Dan said:


> I'm pretty well convinced that 4000k is my favorite color temp and the color rendering of the Nichia is excellent....
> 
> What's your favorite light for tint quality?



I don't have a 4000k LED, but my favorite LED I have is in the ReyLight Cu Tool, and I asked Rey for the exact name and bin of the LED (which I lost), but I do remember that it is a hi CRI 219b 4500k. I could go warmer, so... I am almost right there with you. This is at 1lm levels, to medium 40lm and 80lm. A close second is a hi CRI Nichia 219b 5200k Vinh whipped up for me on a Thrunite driver. The warmer tints I find better for nighttime, indoor or outdoor, but the cooler 5200k (IMO, this is "true neutral") is better, and specifially when powered very brightly, for the daytime when eyes are used to the brighter light of day and slow to adjust after stepping indoors, but it also is a big win for dark adapted eyes at sublumen levels... really magical at those levels.

OT, but during the night, neither of these come close nor can compare to a good-quality incan lamp, indoors or outdoors at any brightness or color temperature, afa tint and color rendition is concerned. Don't even try, there is no competition. If you disagree, you can leave your tint snob membership card at the security desk on your way out the door.


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## Dr Forinor (Jan 24, 2017)

I have the EagleTac D25C (2016 version), which has the Nichia 219B-V1 CRI-92 R9050 but at 5700k. 

Not a big fan of the temperature, but in terms of colour reproduction I can't argue with it.


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## AVService (Jan 24, 2017)

I prefer to thin of myself as a Tint Enthusiast!

As long as there are choices offered how is this snobbery exactly?

I work with wire and cables every day and anything that makes it easier to ID color coding gets my money.


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## YahFargo (Jan 24, 2017)

Tachead said:


> Well, I am not sure if it is my favorite but my cheap little Astrolux A01 with a Nichia 219B 4000K(SW40) R9050 is definitely up there. I also like my Zebralight H600Fc&d with the 4000 & 5000K Cree XM-L2 Easywhite. And, my Eagletac D25C with a Nichia 219A 4500K(SW45) is not bad either.



+1 for the A01. It's a thing of beauty.


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## camelight (Jan 24, 2017)

No doubt my amazing tactical zoom light from ebay is not just so powerful but also has a graet very blue tint i would say it 7500k

Just kidding, i also love my sc600 mk iii hi tint its 
For me 4000k- 5000k is the best maybe even a litell less than 4000k but i haven't tried yet an led light like that


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## tech25 (Jan 24, 2017)

Good idea for a thread! 

So far my favorite tint is my XP-L 4000k, in my okluma. I don't know what cri it is. I like a soft warm tint for my floody lights. Comparing it to an Incan surefire, I like both but the LED usually wins out for increased brightness. 

I did have for a short time a 219B 5000k 92cri- while it was nice (the colors were just...there) - to me it seemed like the 4000k with its probably lower cri was nicer overall. 

My other light I like is my Zebralight H51fw- xpg 4200k 75 cri- not as good as the okluma but if I am using it and not comparing it, it's an ok tint for me.


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## emarkd (Jan 24, 2017)

The problem with labeling a certain light has having better tint than another is that LEDs are mass-produced items with a defined range of tolerance - the infamous tint lottery. So one persons "perfect" SC600mk3 HI (and mine nearly is) will be another person's green bomb. The only way to avoid that is to only use tightly-binned emitters (low McAdams steps) or, even better, to hand-test and pick emitters as you customize your own lights. Very few manufacturers want to spend the extra for low-step emitters and _no_ factory light is going to be hand-picked. So for me, as a tint-snob, I can say that I love the tint on my triple 219b sw45 d220 r90 Solarforce, or my triple 219c sw403 r9050 Sinner, or my 119AT-H1 sw45B10L McGizmo mule, but unfortunately, unless you hand-pick and test yourself as you build these things, ymmv.

Good luck tint snobs. Our affliction isn't easy to manage at times, and it certainly isn't cheap.


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## Alex1234 (Jan 24, 2017)

I have a fenix fd41vn with a xpl hi 4000k led, vinh said this particular sample is very nice and right he is. Its not overly warm but warm enough to give a soft yet quite bright beam. at full flood its amazing. it makes the colors of anything i shine it at pop. Im bringing this light camping with me this summer


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## Lucky Duck (Jan 24, 2017)

I've recently acquired a Ti D25c w/ XPL HI V3 Neutral. Compared to my 4000K M61N it seems to be a bit warmer, I'd say 35-3700K-ish. Outdoors it looks great, colours "jump". Seems higher CRI than the M61N which BTW is very nice itself. Both very much to my more (& more) tint snob liking!


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## Connor (Jan 24, 2017)

This thread needs 
:kewlpics:

Favourite tint so far: Nitecore TIP CRI (2nd from right) - really nice and slightly rosy Nichia 219b, 5000 K-ish. Excellent colour rendering, pleasant skin tones. 
I think I am partial to the rosy side of tints.


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## dhunley1 (Jan 24, 2017)

My favorite tint is from my M61L 219B V2 drop-in, that lives in a 6P. Runner up would be my Malkoff MDC 16650 neutral XP-G. The XP-G2 M61N and NL is also very nice, and I would argue that they have a nicer beam pattern than the 219 drop-ins.


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## wimmer21 (Jan 24, 2017)

It's difficult to pick one but the Nichia 219b (CRI of around 93) that's in my HDS Rotary would be hard to beat.


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## LeanBurn (Jan 24, 2017)

I have to apologize if this comes across as tint *elitist*, but the Yuji BC Series 3200K tint and 95 CRI is the cream of the crop. It is so close for tint and color rendering ability to incandescent, that it almost seems any further advancement in LED CRI would seem so minuscule, perhaps even undetectable to the human eye. I didn't want to believe it myself, but since I first powered it up, it is still undeniable.

The great thing about the Yuji is that the LED is so primitive that it is cheap and easy to mod into those devices that can use it. This is also its greatest weakness as its lower power output (less than 10L) and 5mm diode factor with 45 deg beam means that its perfect beam pattern is only usable for ~15m. 

So definitely not for all applications like other lights might be.


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## NutSAK (Jan 24, 2017)

dhunley1 said:


> The XP-G2 M61N and NL is also very nice, and I would argue that they have a nicer beam pattern than the 219 drop-ins.



I would agree. I have a XP-G M61W from the first run w/5000K temperature that is my favorite all-around tint. I used to be more of a snob but have recently realized that beam profile and efficiency are also very important to me. I'm looking forward trying out a a 219c to help on the efficiency front.


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## archimedes (Jan 24, 2017)

LeanBurn said:


> I have to apologize if this comes across as tint *elitist*, but the Yuji BC Series 3200K tint and 95 CRI is the cream of the crop. It is so close for tint and color rendering ability to incandescent, that it almost seems any further advancement in LED CRI would seem so minuscule, perhaps even undetectable to the human eye. I didn't want to believe it myself, but since I first powered it up, it is still undeniable....



I wonder if there is any chance that Peak could reprise some of their vintage "showerhead" type designs with these Yuji emitters ...






I have heard a lot about these emitters, and would really like to see them in use (but am not a modder)


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## K2-bk-bl-rd (Jan 24, 2017)

I am currently modifying a SureFire helmet light with Yuji High CRI LED's. The three higher power will be 5600k, the lower output (use to be colored LED's) will be 3200k. It's really nice because there are 3 modes for each.


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## tech25 (Jan 24, 2017)

I totally forgot my Malkoff M61N, another favorite tint of mine!


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## wimmer21 (Jan 24, 2017)

Just found an old Brinkman flashlight in a drawer and it beats the HDS Rotary. Lights sure have come a long way, but tint, not so much.


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## DHart (Jan 24, 2017)

Nichia 219C 4000k is as good as I've ever experienced, from an LED. (I don't use incans anymore.) I have them in a Manker E14vn (4-emitters with Vin's VN4 driver). Great color quality. A close second for me are the 4D tint bins that Zebralight uses (4400k). Beautiful tint and 4000k to 4500k is definitely my favorite range.

3D neutral 5000k is about as cool as I can tolerate. At any given color temperature, it seems that the CREE A and D tints tend toward pinkish tones and the B and C tints tend toward yellow/green tones. I prefer the A's and D's.


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## staticx57 (Jan 24, 2017)

To be fair though, the pinnacle of tint was set about 4 and a half billions years ago. We have been trying to replicate it ever since. A few years I don't expect much


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## RobertMM (Jan 24, 2017)

I enjoy my Malkoff M61N and Tana Singled 219B 4500K 93CRI, but nothing touches my Surefire P60 lamps.


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## Random Dan (Jan 24, 2017)

staticx57 said:


> To be fair though, the pinnacle of tint was set about 4 and a half billions years ago. We have been trying to replicate it ever since. A few years I don't expect much


But was it the perfect tint then, or is it the 4.5 billion years of our eyes evolving to it that made it the perfect tint?

Hmm, too philosophical for me.


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## otis311 (Jan 25, 2017)

Sometimes if you want the perfect tint you have to do it yourself. Modded 2D mag, 3x 219B:


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## wacbzz (Jan 25, 2017)

I am less concerned about "tint" than I am about color rendering. I am ever so thankful that I paid ~ $16 for my Jaxman E2 with the Nichia 219b. With all the many lights I have purchased over the years with supposed great "tint," nothing I have ever owned LED wise - including HDS 219 lights and Malkoff HCRI dropins - has ever touched the color rendering of this 5700k light.


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## twistedraven (Jan 25, 2017)

I am with wacbzz. The Jaxman E2 5700k. is my favorite light for color rendering. I also happen to like its sunlight-balanced color temperature a whole lot, but I can see others thinking it to be too cold for night-time use. The classic SW45 binned variety of N219B emitters would be second on my list after the SW57 binned N219B at 5700k on my Jaxman.


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## mk2rocco (Jan 25, 2017)

Right around 4000k to 5000k is the sweet spot for me. My favorite light tint wise is a Aleph Mule with a 3s 119v light engine. I don't think I have seen another light that looks so close to sunlight.


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## jon_slider (Jan 25, 2017)

Im the kind of tint snob who prefers the tint to fall below the bbl. I would buy this tint:


maukka said:


>



Im too snobby to buy this tint that falls too far above the bbl in the yellow green area:


maukka said:


>



same lights, I would buy the tint on the left


UnknownVT said:


>



This is what I carry, the N219b SW45 used in the Copper Lumintop Tool, Copper ReyLight, and Copper Worm


maukka said:


>



note the pics are links to the orginal posts, they are full of additional Tint, CCT and CRI info, I encourage people to click them


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## the.Mtn.Man (Jan 25, 2017)

I have an HDS Rotary with a 120 lumen, 3700K, 90+ CRI emitter, and it is _gorgeous_. I had the opportunity once to compare it with an old school incandescent Surefire 6P, and in terms of tint and color rendering, the two were indistinguishable. I'm never giving up this flashlight.


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## Woods Walker (Jan 25, 2017)

I like pleasing tint be it CW, Warm, High CRI, NW...whatever got them all. So long as it looks nice and not like an alien abduction angry blue or squid **** green it's all kinda good for me. Tend to roll warmed but again so long as it looks good odds are the gear item will be used unlike those with an annoying tint. When yea got lots of option you can be picked. That said IMHO actually working when needed Trumps (pun intended) everything.


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## wacbzz (Jan 25, 2017)

the.Mtn.Man said:


> I have an *HDS Rotary with a 120 lumen, 3700K, 90+ CRI emitter*, and it is _gorgeous_. I had the opportunity once to compare it with an old school incandescent Surefire 6P, and in terms of tint and color rendering, the two were indistinguishable. I'm never giving up this flashlight.



In my review posted elsewhere from April of 2012, I reviewed that exact XP-G light and came to pretty much the same conclusion as you, though as I posted then with photos, there were a multitude of other things wrong with that light then. A few of the photos compairing another HDS light remain in that review, i.e., haven't been deleted from the Photobucket account, and its visually evident that the low kelvin number greatly affects what one actually sees, _browns and reds in particular_. 

While it wasn't difficult to sell that light, I would agree with you _in general_ that the color rendering was/is, for the most part - _for an XP-G - _spot on.


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## Random Dan (Jan 25, 2017)

the.Mtn.Man said:


> I have an HDS Rotary with a 120 lumen, 3700K, 90+ CRI emitter, and it is _gorgeous_. I had the opportunity once to compare it with an old school incandescent Surefire 6P, and in terms of tint and color rendering, the two were indistinguishable. I'm never giving up this flashlight.


I have a 140 clicky with a hi CRI XP-G but I think it's nearer 3300k. Definitely very incan-esque color. I think it is a little too warm most of the time but for outdoor use it is fantastic.


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## staticx57 (Jan 25, 2017)

twistedraven said:


> I am with wacbzz. The Jaxman E2 5700k. is my favorite light for color rendering. I also happen to like its sunlight-balanced color temperature a whole lot, but I can see others thinking it to be too cold for night-time use. The classic SW45 binned variety of N219B emitters would be second on my list after the SW57 binned N219B at 5700k on my Jaxman.



Just as an FYI you can buy these mounted on a triple board from kaidomain. I have a triple setup with this emitter in a Reylight Ti 1


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## gunga (Jan 26, 2017)

One of my new favourite warmish tints, 219C, 3500K. Gorgeous. I have some 3000K I'll try this week too. I'm really liking 3-4000K Nichia 219B and 219C.


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## the.Mtn.Man (Jan 26, 2017)

wacbzz said:


> In my review posted elsewhere from April of 2012, I reviewed that exact XP-G light and came to pretty much the same conclusion as you, though as I posted then with photos, there were a multitude of other things wrong with that light then. A few of the photos compairing another HDS light remain in that review, i.e., haven't been deleted from the Photobucket account, and its visually evident that the low kelvin number greatly affects what one actually sees, _browns and reds in particular_.
> 
> While it wasn't difficult to sell that light, I would agree with you _in general_ that the color rendering was/is, for the most part - _for an XP-G - _spot on.


The term "damning with faint praise" comes to mind as I read this post. 

But then I remember who the poster is. :laughing:


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## DHart (Jan 26, 2017)

jon_slider said:


> Im the kind of tint snob who prefers the tint to fall below the bbl. I would buy this tint:
> 
> 
> Im too snobby to buy this tint that falls too far above the bbl in the yellow green area:
> ...



My preference, as well. My understanding is that the CREE tint bins with A & D fall below the arc (pink side) and B & C fall above the arc (yellow/green side). I prefer those falling below and being toward neutral, warm/neutral.


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## Swedpat (Jan 26, 2017)

I have two competing lights when it comes to best tint: Malkoff M91w(in a Surefire 9P) and Armytek Barracuda Warm(I think it's the first generation). Both of them provide the feeling of a bright incandescent every time I turn them on.


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## wacbzz (Jan 26, 2017)

the.Mtn.Man said:


> The term "damning with faint praise" comes to mind as I read this post.
> 
> But then I remember who the poster is. :laughing:



The photos are there for visual examination - as is the EXIF data for said pictures - and they speak for themselves concerning the color rendering of the light.


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## the.Mtn.Man (Jan 26, 2017)

wacbzz said:


> The photos are there for visual examination - as is the EXIF data for said pictures - and they speak for themselves concerning the color rendering of the light.


A picture will almost always look different than what you see in person. I did an A/B comparison between a Surfire incan and my 3700K HDS Rotary, and looking at them with my own two eyeballs, I could see no difference between them. Henry advertised the light at the time as having a 90+ CRI, and from what I can see, mine is most definitely a "plus". No idea what the actual CRI rating is, but I suspect it's up there. I've even had coworkers ask me if my Rotary is an incandescent, and they're shocked when I tell them it's an LED.

I keep hoping that someday we'll see 3200K 100 CRI LEDs.


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## tops2 (Jan 27, 2017)

I'm not a "snob" yet...?

But I love at higher levels my Zebralight H600Fd and Lumintop IYP365.
The H600Fd has a touch of warmth without being too warm, but not too "white" and analytical.
The IYP365 at the highest setting just is so pleasant to me. Its the "warmest" light I still have that doesn't make things all dirty and yellow. I actually like the tint at the highest level more than my H600Fd.

I keep seeing mentioning of the Nichia 219c so one day I gotta try one out!


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## jon_slider (Jan 27, 2017)

tops2 said:


> I keep seeing mentioning of the Nichia 219c so one day I gotta try one out!



219c 4000k are in ReyLight Pineapple, ReyLight Ti Lan, and Manker LAD

if you have not yet tried a 4500k N219b from Lumintop, there is a Brass Tool coming on massdrop for $25. this is the only one of the 4 mentioned, that uses pure constant current.


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## Dr Forinor (Jan 27, 2017)

Manker have also released their E14 with Nichia 219C 4000k emitters, and it really is very good, I would say better than the 219BT used in the Lumintop.


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## Tachead (Jan 27, 2017)

Eagletac also has a number of lights featuring the 219C SW40.


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## JimAShaw (Jan 28, 2017)

I am new to CPW and flashlights in general.

So, please excuse a novice questions.

I am considering ordering the Manker MK34 and I notice that the XP G3, the NOCHIA 219B and the 219C can be chosen during the ordering.

I understand the cool vs the tint but what is the difference between the 219C and 219B?


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## DHart (Jan 28, 2017)

219C with 4000k tint... wonderfully de-li-cious quality of light! :thumbsup:


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## staticx57 (Jan 28, 2017)

The 219C is newer but it is not specific enough. There is a 90+ CRI 219C as well but without knowing it likely is the 80CRI which means brighter but lower CRI


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## JimAShaw (Jan 29, 2017)

DHart said:


> 219C with 4000k tint... wonderfully de-li-cious quality of light! :thumbsup:



Understood and thank you


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## jon_slider (Jan 29, 2017)

IF we compare a 4000k N219b, to a 4000k N219c, the N219b will tend to have a more pink tint, and the 219c will tend to have a more yellow tint. I prefer the pink tint to yellow tint. Therefore, for me, the N219b is the better choice.

The benefit of the 219c is that it uses less power, but it does not have better color imo. So for a Tint Snob, the N219b is the better option. For a Brightness snob, the N219c is a better choice, but this is the Tint Snob thread


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## DHart (Jan 29, 2017)

jon_slider said:


> IF we compare a 4000k N219b, to a 4000k N219c, the N219b will tend to have a more pink tint, and the 219c will tend to have a more yellow tint. I prefer the pink tint to yellow tint. Therefore, for me, the N219b is the better choice.
> 
> The benefit of the 219c is that it uses less power, but it does not have better color imo. So for a Tint Snob, the N219b is the better option. For a Brightness snob, the N219c is a better choice, but this is the Tint Snob thread



I prefer the pinker tints vs yellower tints, myself. 

But in use (Manker E14vn with four 219c 4000k emitters) I find the color quite neutrally warmish. 

I'm sure I'd enjoy the 219b 4000k version very much, as well.


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## Tachead (Jan 29, 2017)

jon_slider said:


> IF we compare a 4000k N219b, to a 4000k N219c, the N219b will tend to have a more pink tint, and the 219c will tend to have a more yellow tint. I prefer the pink tint to yellow tint. Therefore, for me, the N219b is the better choice.
> 
> The benefit of the 219c is that it uses less power, but it does not have better color imo. So for a Tint Snob, the N219b is the better option. For a Brightness snob, the N219c is a better choice, but this is the Tint Snob thread



This is not really accurate Jon. Nichia LED's are binned just like Cree's and there is a range to the tint you might receive(the tint lottery). Either emitter(B or C) could be magenta/pinkish or yellowy/greenish depending on where your particular example falls on the chromaticity chart. You can minimize this variation(but not eliminate it) by purchasing emitters from a bin with a lower MacAdam Ellipse number. SM403 binned emitters have the tightest chromaticity tolerance of the 4000K(SW40) Nichias.


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## gunga (Jan 29, 2017)

From the available (tight) bins I've seen, Jon is correct. While you are technically correct, there is a difference between what is theoretically correct (you) vs what is practically correct (Jon).


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## Tachead (Jan 29, 2017)

gunga said:


> From the available (tight) bins I've seen, Jon is correct. While you are technically correct, there is a difference between what is theoretically correct (you) vs what is practically correct (Jon).



You can not be sure of this without having hundreds or even thousands of examples to compare or without Nichia confirming this hypothesis. I have 219B's that are yellowy/greenish and ones that are magenta/pinkish for instance so, I personally think it is still the standard tint lottery. I do not think generalizing that C's are green and B's are pink is right and could be misleading. YMMV of course. Nichia's own chromaticity charts also don't support this generalization.


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## Tachead (Jan 29, 2017)

I should also add that when it comes to 4000K 219B's, I have personally seen more examples that are yellowy/greenish then ones that are magenta/pinkish. I have however seen more magenta/pinkish ones in the higher colour temperature bins. I don't have much experience with C's(especially SW40)so I can't comment on my experiences there.


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## JimAShaw (Jan 29, 2017)

jon_slider said:


> IF we compare a 4000k N219b, to a 4000k N219c, the N219b will tend to have a more pink tint, and the 219c will tend to have a more yellow tint. I prefer the pink tint to yellow tint. Therefore, for me, the N219b is the better choice.
> 
> The benefit of the 219c is that it uses less power, but it does not have better color imo. So for a Tint Snob, the N219b is the better option. For a Brightness snob, the N219c is a better choice, but this is the Tint Snob thread



Extremely informative

I thank you


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## staticx57 (Jan 29, 2017)

I'm going to wager more 219Bs are seen as rosy as there tends to be more red in them. 

Most 219Bs we see are R9050. Meaning CRI minimum 90 and R9 minimum 50. Most 219Cs we see are R8000 meaning CRI minimum 80 and R9 minimum 0.


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## neutralwhite (Jan 29, 2017)

New 219b SW45 4500k in my HDS rotary 18650, and lumintop Cu tool. 
Modded.


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## Tachead (Jan 29, 2017)

staticx57 said:


> I'm going to wager more 219Bs are seen as rosy as there tends to be more red in them.
> 
> Most 219Bs we see are R9050. Meaning CRI minimum 90 and R9 minimum 50. Most 219Cs we see are R8000 meaning CRI minimum 80 and R9 minimum 0.



The new 4000K ones that I believe Jon was talking about are R9050 as well. They are being used in many new lights including several from Eagletac, some from Reylight, some from Manker, etc. Some have reported that they often have a slightly greenish tint. I have more then one 4000K 219B R9050 example with a slightly greenish tint as well however.


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## jon_slider (Jan 29, 2017)

L to R, Manker Lad 219c, Lumintop Worm head w 219b, Astrolux M03 219b


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## staticx57 (Jan 29, 2017)

No doubt there will be variations and truth be told unless you know the full part number you can't conclude anything.

But my point was the vast majority of 219Cs in the wild are the mid-CRI.


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## Tachead (Jan 29, 2017)

staticx57 said:


> No doubt there will be variations and truth be told unless you know the full part number you can't conclude anything.
> 
> *But my point was the vast majority of 219Cs in the wild are the mid-CRI.*



This is true because the R9050 219C's have just recently started to become used in commonly available lights.


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## Tachead (Jan 29, 2017)

Another thing to keep in mind is the reflector design/geometry/coating and types of anti-reflective coatings used on a flashlight lens can have a pretty big impact on tint. That is why some companies are starting to take more care when designing reflectors and choosing AR coatings that have lower colour distortion properties, especially for models using high CRI emitters.

So, any comparisons of emitters should be done without the reflector and lenses to remove these variables.


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## gunga (Jan 29, 2017)

It's true. I've only looked at dozens of LEDS. Likely only 80-90 at most. I'm not in the hundreds to thousands (yet).


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## Woods Walker (Jan 29, 2017)

I don't want to be the one to bring this up but anyone ever notice high CRI is awful in the fog. No better than CW though am starting to wonder if beam profile isn't a more important factor than tint. Still feel warmer tints help but dang...... high CRI didn't seem to be the ticket for this application. Just rolling it out there.


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## jon_slider (Jan 29, 2017)

staticx57 said:


> No doubt there will be variations and truth be told unless you know the full part number you can't conclude anything.
> 
> But my point was the vast majority of 219Cs in the wild are the mid-CRI.



Generally speaking, I agree completely . I also thank you for the explanation of what 9050 and 8000 means.
I hope someone digs up the numbers for the 3 lights I posted

It helps me a lot to use specific examples. I admit to being very guilty of creating hypotheses based on single samples. Otoh, I have also spent considerable time comparing the 219c beamshots online, so my conclusion that they tend to fall above the BBL, was more than just a wild guess.. I had also spoken to gunga before commenting that I have the impression that 219c tends to tint shift above the BBL, and N219b tends to tint below the BBL. Generally speaking, people will prefer tint below, rather than above, the BBL.

When the 219c first started being mentioned online, I agree it was an 8000, but it is now appearing as a 9050, in lights like the Pineapple and LAD. unless Im mistaken. The 219c was originally intended to play catchup with CREE in the Brightness wars. However, imo, flashlight manufacturers have figured out there is a strong market for 4000k High CRI LEDs.. so they offer Both .. Consumer has a choice, buys both.. Manufacturer happy.

Now to come back around on topic with the title of the thread
Tint Snobs like Nichias better than Crees, because Nichias dont look Green!




Woods Walker said:


> anyone ever notice high CRI is awful in the fog. No better than CW


interesting topic
having recently purchased 3000k selective Yellow foglight lamps, to replace my 5000k fogs, I have a couple of observations. The 3000k is 20% less bright. The Yellow tends to get "under" the fog, and not bounce back at me as glare as much. Im not sure if thats just because they are dimmer, since Ive not had a lot of fog time yet.

I think your comment about beam profile is definitely part of it. Can you give some specific examples of the lights you tested, and their LEDs and brightness levels?


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## staticx57 (Jan 29, 2017)

Woods Walker said:


> I don't want to be the one to bring this up but anyone ever notice high CRI is awful in the fog. No better than CW though am starting to wonder if beam profile isn't a more important factor than tint. Still feel warmer tints help but dang...... high CRI didn't seem to be the ticket for this application. Just rolling it out there.



High CRI has been wrongly associated with neutral white. And yes, loads of blue light such as neutrals and cools do scatter more than warm. The best light we have for fog, incandescent, has a higher CRI than any LED. CRI is but a piece of the puzzle that tells you about the light, not the beginning of what it is.

And you are correct that beam profile is just as, if not, more important than anything else as the more directions you throw light the more opportunity there is to scatter it. It is the same reason why using your high beams in the fog is generally useless and just creates a wall of bright fog in front of you.


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## Woods Walker (Jan 29, 2017)

jon_slider said:


> Generally speaking, I agree completely . I also thank you for the explanation of what 9050 and 8000 means.
> I hope someone digs up the numbers for the 3 lights I posted
> 
> It helps me a lot to use specific examples. I admit to being very guilty of creating hypotheses based on single samples. Otoh, I have also spent considerable time comparing the 219c beamshots online, so my conclusion that they tend to fall above the BBL, was more than just a wild guess.. I had also spoken to gunga before commenting that I have the impression that 219c tends to tint shift above the BBL, and N219b tends to tint below the BBL. Generally speaking, people will prefer tint below, rather than above, the BBL.
> ...



I have been field testing a Nitecore NU20. When I get a light to be tested it's not just a few white wall beam shots then a trip to the back yard. I roll it through the woods in as many conditions as possible for it's intended purpose in this case a running headlamp. Did it all. Fog, rain, snow and clear but then again the gear really was just along for the ride which was happening anyways. Also field tested a LR30 lantern. Both are high CRI. I was skeptical of the entire affair and more so given the hit in output being greater than other tint snobbery options. That said after using both I actually like it. Not sure if more so than a good CW/NW/W tinted light. Lets face it. We can have [email protected] tinted lights which are supposed to be NW etc etc etc. I guess the same might apply to these 219(whatever letter which follows). Last Christmas time I firmly established "rosy tint" as the ultimate first world problem. Also people tend to associate high CRI with warm or NW and IMHO the two aren't related. My preferred tints today are what comes out of the M91W, Armytek XHP-50 W (really NW) and the cooler shade of NW which comes from the HL50 and SC5w. That's kinda a wide range in real world viewing. 

I gotta say one thing however, the high CRI did probably the best job at distinguishing trail markers. Took some photos of that for the up coming field use review. But offered no more optical joy than a good pure vanilla white CW or any visually nice looking tint. Give me a nice CW which isn't space alien abduction blue or squid **** green and generally I will roll with it. I suppose if squid **** green is hated based on my limited experience these high CRI LEDs aren't green nor will they be but could be wrong. Any one of the Cree LEDs can turn squid pissy despite whatever tint claims aka squid **** side of the tint lottery being active for the entire CREE range again IMHO. My number one concern is actual light cuz don't want to fall down some icy ledge night trail running. Almost enticed enough to buy a Malkoff in high CRI.

Edit.

Tested all output levels of the NU20 and LR30 but forgot what they were at the moment.


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## Dr Forinor (Jan 30, 2017)

I have to now point out that after testing my EagleTac D25C Ti 2017 Nichia 219B 5700K last night, I find it of low CRI.

I compared it against my [very] cool white HDS Rotary (for the cool white section), and against my Malkoff NW & McGizmo Haiku XP-G2 (for the neutral/warm white section).

The colours from the D25C seem much more similar to the cool white HDS than they do with the Malkoff or McGizmo. Very disappointed, I must say.


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## RobertMM (Jan 30, 2017)

Dr Forinor said:


> I have to now point out that after testing my EagleTac D25C Ti 2017 Nichia 219B 5700K last night, I find it of low CRI.
> 
> I compared it against my [very] cool white HDS Rotary (for the cool white section), and against my Malkoff NW & McGizmo Haiku XP-G2 (for the neutral/warm white section).
> 
> The colours from the D25C seem much more similar to the cool white HDS than they do with the Malkoff or McGizmo. Very disappointed, I must say.



That is just one instance to reiterate that CRI is independent of Color Temperature.


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## twistedraven (Jan 30, 2017)

My hi cri 219B 5700k light looks completely different from other cool white low cri Crees I've played around with. It has such great inner warmth to it with the high amount of deep red rendering. I can't believe it would look similar at all to other cool whites.


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## Dr Forinor (Jan 30, 2017)

RobertMM said:


> That is just one instance to reiterate that CRI is independent of Color Temperature.



Independant? Or you mean dependant? 

I regard the Malkoff as high CRI, and the Haiku XP-G2 as high CRi also, and the D25C is rubbish in comparison. EagleTac state 92CRI, I would strongly disagree.


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## Tachead (Jan 30, 2017)

Dr Forinor said:


> Independant? Or you mean dependant?
> 
> I regard the Malkoff as high CRI, and the Haiku XP-G2 as high CRi also, and the D25C is rubbish in comparison. EagleTac state 92CRI, I would strongly disagree.



You are comparing warm/neutral white to cool white. You are likely noticing the difference in colour temperature more then the CRI and have a preference/bias towards warmer colour temperatures. The emitter used in your Eagletac is the same one used in the Jaxman E2 and has been independently tested at 93CRI. It also has an R9 of 80 which is very high.






Graph courtesy of maukka.

Try comparing it against another cool white light(as close to 5700K as possible) for a better comparison. Use colourful objects with many different colours including red and blue such as cereal boxes for your comparison. You should notice it renders colours more vibrantly compared to a standard cool emitter which will make colours look dull and washed out.


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## RobertMM (Jan 30, 2017)

Dr Forinor said:


> Independant? Or you mean dependant?
> 
> I regard the Malkoff as high CRI, and the Haiku XP-G2 as high CRi also, and the D25C is rubbish in comparison. EagleTac state 92CRI, I would strongly disagree.



I still mean independent. 
Which they are.

An overdriven P60 lamp, say putting out a higher color temperature that it looks very white, is a blackbody radiator putting out 100CRI, correct?

A P60 lamp driven with less current showing around 3000K is still a blackbody radiator giving 100CRI, correct?

Somebody chime in if I am off.


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## Dr Forinor (Jan 30, 2017)

Tachead said:


> You are comparing warm/neutral white to cool white. You are likely noticing the difference in colour temperature more then the CRI and have a preference/bias towards warmer colour temperatures. The emitter used in your Eagletac is the same one used in the Jaxman E2 and has been independently tested at 93CRI. It also has an R9 of 80 which is very high.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Ok, not tried it with any other cool white, but I will have a go. 

I know my HDS has low CRI, and the colours (albeit only greens and browns when I tested it at a golf course last night) from the EagleTac were very similar to the HDS. That's why I assumed it also has low CRI?

Before last night, I have tried it on my kids toys (that have a lot of colours) and the reds certainly do seem vibrant with the EagleTac.

Why did the colours of this Eagletac seems awfully similar to that of the low CRI HDS, when tested out on the green (and browns)?


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## Dr Forinor (Jan 30, 2017)

RobertMM said:


> I still mean independent.
> Which they are.
> 
> An overdriven P60 lamp, say putting out a higher color temperature that it looks very white, is a blackbody radiator putting out 100CRI, correct?
> ...



I'm sorry, it must be me, you have completely lost me with that analogy?


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## RobertMM (Jan 30, 2017)

I just meant that a certain emitter can have high or low CRI but it's CRI value will not depend on how warm or cool the temperature is.

Some think that to achieve high CRI you must have neutral or low color temperature, but clearly some emitters achieve high CRI even while emitting in the cool part of the spectrum.


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## staticx57 (Jan 30, 2017)

Dr Forinor said:


> Ok, not tried it with any other cool white, but I will have a go.
> 
> I know my HDS has low CRI, and the colours (albeit only greens and browns when I tested it at a golf course last night) from the EagleTac were very similar to the HDS. That's why I assumed it also has low CRI?
> 
> ...



Greens and blues are colors Low CRI emitters tend not to be so bad with.


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## staticx57 (Jan 30, 2017)

RobertMM said:


> I just meant that a certain emitter can have high or low CRI but it's CRI value will not depend on how warm or cool the temperature is.
> 
> Some think that to achieve high CRI you must have neutral or low color temperature, but clearly some emitters achieve high CRI even while emitting in the cool part of the spectrum.



CRI is just a comparison on how colors compare to an ideal light source. The ideal light source is a black body radiator whose spectrum changes with temperature. That is why an Incan can have 99.999999 CRI at 3000k and the sun at 5700k can also have a CRI of 99.999999999. There is no real black body radiator in nature but these two get real close. So if you have a 4500k you just compare the colors to what a 4500k black body radiator would put out.

In actuality since we have no true black bodies and incans and the sun are so close we just defined the CRI to be 100 and compare from there.


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## Tachead (Jan 30, 2017)

Dr Forinor said:


> Ok, not tried it with any other cool white, but I will have a go.
> 
> I know my HDS has low CRI, and the colours (albeit only greens and browns when I tested it at a golf course last night) from the EagleTac were very similar to the HDS. That's why I assumed it also has low CRI?
> 
> ...



Its hard to say for sure without testing both and comparing the spectral graph but, it could be that the HDS has similar green and brown values. Remember that CRI is only a small part of the picture and only takes the average of 8 colour samples into account. It is actually one of the least accurate systems to measure a light sources colour rendering(especially LED). You can have two emitters with the same CRI value but, one can be better in certain spectrums then the other because it is an average. Also, you may just prefer the way a certain emitter renders a certain colour. That does not however mean the one you prefer is the more accurate rendering and closer to the way it will look in sunlight. Colour temperature can have an effect on the way colours look too as tint will change along the black body radiation line(yellow/orange towards the warm side and blue/purple towards the cold). Then there is the tint difference when the a light sources falls above or below the black body radiation line.

This is a complicated subject.


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## Dr Forinor (Jan 30, 2017)

staticx57 said:


> Greens and blues are colors Low CRI emitters tend not to be so bad with.



Ok I understand the part where greens may not be too bad with low CRI emitters. But then the greens looked so similar in the HDS and EagleTac, but the greens looked very different in those 2 when compared to the Malkoff and Haiku XP-G2. I assume the greens were better represented in the Malkoff/Haiku, and since they were different than the HDS/EagleTac, one of these pairs must be out? 





Tachead said:


> Its hard to say for sure without testing both and comparing the spectral graph but, it could be that the HDS has similar green and brown values. Remember that CRI is only a small part of the picture and only takes the average of 8 colour samples into account. It is actually one of the least accurate systems to measure a light sources colour rendering(especially LED). You can have two emitters with the same CRI value but, one can be better in certain spectrums then the other because it is an average. Also, you may just prefer the way a certain emitter renders a certain colour. That does not however mean the one you prefer is the more accurate rendering and closer to the way it will look in sunlight. Colour temperature can have an effect on the way colours look too as tint will change along the black body radiation line(yellow/orange towards the warm side and blue/purple towards the cold). Then there is the tint difference when the a light sources falls above or below the black body radiation line.
> 
> This is a complicated subject.



Not half complicated!!! :duh2:


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## twistedraven (Jan 30, 2017)

This picture shows the difference in how well the 5700k Nichia renders skin tones than a 5700k Cree rated at 70CRI.









CRI is a limited measurement, and only tells but a small part of the overall story in how accurate a light source is. Where the light lies on the black body locus, and its color temperature, are all important too, as are other measurements of color samples not stated in the CRI standard. Deep Red (R9) is one such sample, that is not listed under the CRI standard. As an example of how inaccurate CRI can be, we can take a 2700k incandescent with 100 listed CRI, and struggle to be able to differentiate blacks from purple, compared to a cool white Cree led at 5700k, whose CRI is only 70.


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## jon_slider (Jan 30, 2017)

twistedraven said:


>




That picture helps a LOT!

It would also help to know the actual specs of the LEDs being tested. For example, I dont know if the Haiku XP-G2 is high CRI. None of my XP-G2 are high CRI

One of the simplest and practical ways I know to compare CRI is by illuminating the palm of my hand.
High CRI: (notice how much pink this image shows)





Low CRI: (notice the lack of pink)





Another way is to illuminate a standard Color chart


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## Dr Forinor (Jan 30, 2017)

Ok, I'm gonna have to take pictures.


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## degarb (Jan 30, 2017)

jon_slider said:


> That picture helps a LOT!
> 
> It would also help to know the actual specs of the LEDs being tested. For example, I dont know if the Haiku XP-G2 is high CRI. None of my XP-G2 are high CRI
> 
> ...



My hand look more like the 70 cri, outside today. 

Are we talking tint preference, or tint benefits? 

I have slight interest in preference - near zero. . Benefits, I am hugely interested in. I wish to learn them all. As well as methods of measuring temperature, cri, or any superior scale. 

Seeing subtle shade difference in white (flat to glossy samples) may be place to start.


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## jon_slider (Jan 30, 2017)

degarb said:


> Are we talking tint preference, or tint benefits?


good question
tint has more than one meaning
most people misuse the word tint, when they actually mean color temperature

4500k Color Temperature, happens coincidentally to also sometimes occur with High CRI.
For example an N219b 90+CRI @ 4500k

6000k Color Temperature, happens to coincidentally usually occur with Low CRI
For example, my Olight i3s, and Maratac, use XP-G2 70CRI @ 6000k

so as a "tint snob", Im actually a CRI snob, but I also avoid 6000k LEDs, because they happen to almost always be, 70CRI
For example, as a Tint Snob I avoid Cool White (6000k), not because it is just too "blue", but because it does not show Red well.

So for benefits, High CRI, which is also usually not Cool White, is that red wires will look red under High CRI, but those same red wires will look brown under Cool White with Low CRI.

then there is "tint" for a particular LED, within the same Color temperature.
For example, I have two High CRI LEDs that are both 4500k, but one is more yellow, and the other is more pink. These are tint differences. I personally prefer pink tint over yellow or green tint. But that says nothing about whether the LED is 4500k, or 3000k.

Another place language gets vague is with terms like Cool White, Neutral White, Warm white. People disagree what numbers those categories fall into. For example, some people think 5000k Color temperature is Neutral white, other disagree and say it is too "cool". Imo it is much more specific to name the Color Temperature, than what kind of "white" an LED produces.


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## tech25 (Jan 30, 2017)

After having a few lights with various tints and CRI, I have a question. I found with one of my lights- a 4000k light with a lower CRI showed colors better then a 93 CRI at 5000k, what am I not understanding?


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## jon_slider (Jan 30, 2017)

can you post a photo of your hand with each light?
and specific info on the LEDs you are comparing?


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## degarb (Jan 30, 2017)

tech25 said:


> After having a few lights with various tints and CRI, I have a question. I found with one of my lights- a 4000k light with a lower CRI showed colors better then a 93 CRI at 5000k, what am I not understanding?



One contributor here told me the temperature had far more roll than cri, for people. Like I said, I am interested in benefits, methods for quantification, not preferences.


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## twistedraven (Jan 30, 2017)

tech25 said:


> After having a few lights with various tints and CRI, I have a question. I found with one of my lights- a 4000k light with a lower CRI showed colors better then a 93 CRI at 5000k, what am I not understanding?




That shouldn't be the case on a technical scale, only a personally subjective scale. Perhaps you want your light to render your surroundings like an incandescent bulb or setting sun, as opposed to midday sun etc.


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## tech25 (Jan 31, 2017)

jon_slider said:


> can you post a photo of your hand with each light?
> and specific info on the LEDs you are comparing?



I had an eagletac with a 219B 5000k, but sold it, comparing to an OkLuma with 4000k XPL's. Probably not such a fair comparison due to single vs. triple leds.


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## tech25 (Jan 31, 2017)

twistedraven said:


> That shouldn't be the case on a technical scale, only a personally subjective scale. Perhaps you want your light to render your surroundings like an incandescent bulb or setting sun, as opposed to midday sun etc.



I do like incandescent color, but prefer the runtime and brightness of an LED.


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## Random Dan (Jan 31, 2017)

An LED with a CCT of 4000k will have it's CRI measured compared with the blackbody radiator line at 4000k, while an LED with a CCT of 5000k will have it's CRI measured compared with the blackbody radiator line at 5000k. I've found that I like 85 CRI at 4000k better than 93 CRI at 5000k for color rendering, but that's preference thing.


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## Thom2022 (Jan 31, 2017)

I've just received my sliced XM-L2 T6-4C for use in my C8. I have to say I'm loving it. It's my dog walking light and it's so much more pleasing to the eye than I could have imagined. There is a bit of a green hue around the hot spot but in the higher modes this becomes less noticeable. This has now prompted me to put together a triple nichia S2+ build.


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## NutSAK (Jan 31, 2017)

Yuji 5mm 3200K high CRI = TINT WIN


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## tech25 (Jan 31, 2017)

Random Dan said:


> An LED with a CCT of 4000k will have it's CRI measured compared with the blackbody radiator line at 4000k, while an LED with a CCT of 5000k will have it's CRI measured compared with the blackbody radiator line at 5000k. I've found that I like 85 CRI at 4000k better than 93 CRI at 5000k for color rendering, but that's preference thing.



Thanks- so CRI is not the be all end all. Tint does play a big role.


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## staticx57 (Jan 31, 2017)

CRI will only tell you how accurate the colors are compared to an ideal light source at a particular color temperature. Both an incandescent bulb and the sun have CRI of 100 but as you can tell they look different.

CRI is only part of the puzzle, not the whole puzzle.


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## Thom2022 (Jan 31, 2017)

So as the cct of daylight (mid day) is around 5700-6200k then a light with a cct of 5500-6000k with a CRI of 90+ is going be a very close simulation of daylight?


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## Tachead (Jan 31, 2017)

tech25 said:


> Thanks- so CRI is not the be all end all. Tint does play a big role.



For sure but, if you have 2 lights with the same colour temperature and tint, the one with the higher CRI will still be superior. 

I personally pick my lights based on colour temperature first, then tint and CRI. I would rather have light with a temperature that I like and low CRI then one with high CRI and a temperature that I hate. Same goes for tint, I would rather have a light with a mediocre tint but, be the temp I like then a perfect tint in a temp I hate.

As Static said, CRI is only part of the big picture.


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## degarb (Jan 31, 2017)

staticx57 said:


> CRI will only tell you how accurate the colors are compared to an ideal light source at a particular color temperature. Both an incandescent bulb and the sun have CRI of 100 but as you can tell they look different.
> 
> CRI is only part of the puzzle, not the whole puzzle.



I read, Sun above 5000k,incan below. . I doubt a heated piece of metal renders colors same as sunset. 
And can it be backed up that a heated piece of steel is ideal? 

I can attest that many things can be seen after dark with led lights on a paint job outside, that simply dissappear during day light. . There are several reasons : up lighting v downward lighting : huge lux variations in crevices and laps that go away with led lamps : outside too high of lux with 30k on cloudy day, eye to me gets blown out above 20k... How much tint may play in is beyond me as I would need a tint adjustable headlamp. . I do know I walked into a bathroom with one coat of blue over orange red with a 1 lumen headlamp that illuminated skips like a black light does blood. These skips were invisible in daylight.


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## jon_slider (Jan 31, 2017)

Thom2022 said:


> So as the cct of daylight (mid day) is around 5700-6200k then a light with a cct of 5500-6000k with a CRI of 90+ is going be a very close simulation of daylight?


yes, but, I dont use a flashlight during the day
For me, it is more pleasant, at night, to use a light that is closer to the color of a fire, at night.
Both are good  depends what ambient light your environment has, when your brain is adapted to an ambient color temperature, a flashlight at a lower CCT will seem "warmer tinted". So a car mechanic, during the day, will be happier with 6000k, even low CRI 6000k. Because there is lots of ambient high CCT light. And the mechanic will want more lumens, over 200 lumens.

At night, I use 20 lumens, so for me a 6000k light is too blue. I prefer a 4000k light at 20 lumens at night. But I also prefer a 6000k light at 200 lumens during the day. 
Another application for 6000kelvin color temperature, at 100s of lumens, is hunting at night.. spotting predators, looking for stray livestock.. etc

the CCT and brightness we use, vary by application
higher CCT lights (usually mostly Cree) tend to drift into the Green Tint
More moderate CCT lights tend to drift into the Yellow Tint if they are Cree, and into the Magenta Tint if they are Nichia.

Cree tend to be low CRI, higher CCT and brighter, and tinted greener, Nichia tend to be less bright, higher CRI and Lower CCT, with pink tint.

At lower CCT it is easier to find high CRI.. 
few 6000k LED lights are 90+CRI

Typical choices we have as consumers are XP-G2, or L @ 6000k and 70CRI, or a Nichia 219a,b,c @ ~4000k and 90+cri
both are better at different times of day..

For me the 4-4500k N219b 90+ CRI, hits a sweet spot. Slightly warm during the day, slightly cool at night.. Its what I end up carrying.. I have 6000k, I have 3000k also. Choices are good. Each has a best use scenario.


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## twistedraven (Jan 31, 2017)

5-6000k LEDs with 90cri will be a lot closer to the appearance of midday sun than LED lights in the 4000k range for sure, but they will still be far off.

Sunlight is full spectrum, and will render a large chunk of the cyan color range, which LEDs struggle to do. Sunlight will also render the deepest reds as well, which LEDs also struggle to do. The sun isn't a black body either, and its tint tends towards the green side of the spectrum, so the pinkish tinted 5700k 90+ CRI Nichia emitter will look pinkish right next to sunlight. 

Lastly, and the single biggest difference, is that we will never have an LED flashlight powerful enough to mimic the sheer amount of light that the Sun throws down onto the surface, as well as its angle of illumination.

Having said that, I will still use my 5700k 90+ CRI in both daytime and nighttime for anything color critical. I think it gives a more balanced spectral output than the 4500k variety of Nichias.


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## jon_slider (Feb 1, 2017)

twistedraven said:


> I will still use my 5700k 90+ CRI in both daytime and nighttime for anything color critical. I think it gives a more balanced spectral output than the 4500k variety of Nichias.



I enjoy your posts, and learn a lot from them. Im only just beginning to experience some of the cooler than 4000k 90+CRI Nichias, and like them

I like pictures, and maukka does some of the best.. pics are links

for visual reference here is a 5700k Nichia, CRI nominal 92




a 4500k Nichia, CRI nominal 92




and 5500k Cree, CRI nominal 70




at a glance we can see the Cree has the least red and the lowest CRI
the 4500k Nichia has the highest Qa, while the 5700k Nichia has the highest R9.. both by small margins
the plot of the 4500k looks like it has the most red

A fable (draft in progress)
The Wizzard and the Turtle

One day a Wizzard in the land of Cree discovered how to capture the blue fire light in a magical glass. He used it to spread his fame far and wide, with great brightness.

Across the Valley and down the river lived a Sea Turtle from the land of CRI, blessed with the gift of Phosphorescece. The Turtles fame spread far and wide, about the beautiful radiant afterglow of her enchanted tears.

Then the Wizzard and the Turtle met. The Wizard was elated at the beauty the Turtle could summon in the afterglow of the brilliant Cree glass. Ever after we have come to remember the union of the Wizard of Cree, and the Sea Turtle of CRI, as the radiant pink marvel we refer to as The Nichia LED.

Historical Note: Nichia Led factory is located nearby a Sea Turtle sanctuary and Museum


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## Lex Icon (Feb 1, 2017)

jon_slider said:


> The Wizzard and the Turtle
> 
> One day a Wizzard in the land of Cree discovered how to capture the blue fire light in a magical glass. He used it to spread his fame far and wide, with great brightness.
> 
> ...


Wow,
I’ll have some of whatever Jon S. is spiking his Nichia Kool-Aid with…
Good Stuff! 
:thumbsup:


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## Tachead (Feb 1, 2017)

Lex Icon said:


> Wow,
> I’ll have some of whatever Jon S. is spiking his Nichia Kool-Aid with…
> Good Stuff!
> :thumbsup:



Yeah, I think he might have mixed up an LED with some LSD


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## degarb (Feb 1, 2017)

jon_slider said:


> I enjoy your posts, and learn a lot from them. Im only just beginning to experience some of the cooler than 4000k 90+CRI Nichias, and like them
> 
> I like pictures, and maukka does some of the best.. pics are links
> 
> ...



Firstly, I like the graph: so, where did you get it? 

Secondly, I am wondering why cyan is hard, knowing how white leds work. 

Thirdly, you probably are thinking of Cree as low CRI, due to the prevalence in cheap China and brick/mortar stores. . It is like trying a $29 five of cheap paint and being ignorant of the $300 a five grade paint from the same paint manufacturer - then, bad mouthing that company. . Why no graph of Cree 90 cri leds? 

I used to run to the Rebel led after discovery of it in early 2008, due to my dislike of Cree xre tint and focus. Then, I liked the tint of only the xrc from Cree by 2009 (late 2008). I could tolerate the some xpe's by 2010, found the xml t6 and xpg as acceptable by 2011. (I need to see the reds and Browns of wood grain and wood stain, as with 200,000 shades of white.) I thought this was the best I could do with Cree, until I started building my own lights, then got some warm xml2 4d from ledsupply.com, also 4200k 80 cri xpl from intl-outdoor.com. The xpl's if you go neutral, blow away my xml2 t6s from China, which seem to lag 3 years behind in tint. . Now, I am hoping to step up to a 90 cri xpl2 for next work light build. . I built an excellent (in December) xpl hi from fasttech.com 5200k,which is way better than any xmlt6 ready made lights in brick store or from China... But I need a high Flux, because I need 10 hour runtime and use during the day for shadowing and seeing in shadows, etc. . Must often fight with overhead, fixed lighting to see things.


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## staticx57 (Feb 1, 2017)

Cree has some excellent high CRI and good tinted XHP50s.


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## Tachead (Feb 1, 2017)

staticx57 said:


> Cree has some excellent high CRI and good tinted XHP50s.



Same with XHP70's. Cutter had some 96CRI XHP70's for sale for a while.


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## degarb (Feb 1, 2017)

Tachead said:


> Same with XHP70's. Cutter had some 96CRI XHP70's for sale for a while.



Thanks for the source. That is important. . However, cutter has expensive shipping. . Or am I missing a way around it?


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## eraursls1984 (Feb 1, 2017)

degarb said:


> ...Thirdly, you probably are thinking of Cree as low CRI, due to the prevalence in cheap China and brick/mortar stores. . It is like trying a $29 five of cheap paint and being ignorant of the $300 a five grade paint from the same paint manufacturer - then, bad mouthing that company...


Cree can have amazing tints. However, I feel like even the Hi-CRI generally have more of a tint lottery than Nichia. It can be harder to procure the better tinted Crees. I love the efficiency of Cree over Nichia, but this is why I generally prefer Nichia tint wise, consistency.


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## Tachead (Feb 1, 2017)

degarb said:


> Thanks for the source. That is important. . However, cutter has expensive shipping. . Or am I missing a way around it?



No problem. I have never ordered from them.


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## Tachead (Feb 1, 2017)

eraursls1984 said:


> Cree can have amazing tints. However, I feel like even the Hi-CRI generally have more of a tint lottery than Nichia. It can be harder to procure the better tinted Crees. I love the efficiency of Cree over Nichia, but this is why I generally prefer Nichia tint wise, consistency.



It's all about the emitters you source, I am not sure either really has less of a tint lottery. 2-step MacAdam Ellipse EasyWhite Cree's and X03 prefix Nichia's are the ticket if you want tint consistency. Both have very tight tint tolerances. The Nichia's do seem to easier to find in small numbers though.


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## eraursls1984 (Feb 1, 2017)

Tachead said:


> It's all about the emitters you source, I am not sure either really has less of a tint lottery. 2-step MacAdam Ellipse EasyWhite Cree's and X03 prefix Nichia's are the ticket if you want tint consistency. Both have very tight tint tolerances. The Nichia's do seem to easier to find in small numbers though.


Yes, but the Cree's aren't as easy to find. With Nichia's even the ones without tight tint tolerances have less tint shift than their Cree counterparts. Sure the best of the best of both are great, I'm just saying that the run of the mill Nichia's are still nice, the Cree's not so much unless you win the tint lottery. This is only getting worse with the latest emitters.


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## degarb (Feb 2, 2017)

Tachead said:


> It's all about the emitters you source, I am not sure either really has less of a tint lottery. 2-step MacAdam Ellipse EasyWhite Cree's and X03 prefix Nichia's are the ticket if you want tint consistency. Both have very tight tint tolerances. The Nichia's do seem to easier to find in small numbers though.



Good info. Probably will forget. 

I thought the binning and SiC Cree technology was supposed to largely eliminate the tint lottery.


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## Tachead (Feb 2, 2017)

degarb said:


> Good info. Probably will forget.
> 
> I thought the binning and SiC Cree technology was supposed to largely eliminate the tint lottery.



The problem is, most manufactures don't offer lights that use LED's from the tighter tint variation bins. If you are talking about their Mosfet's, I don't know much about them but, I doubt they are used much in flashlights.


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## eraursls1984 (Feb 2, 2017)

degarb said:


> I thought the binning and SiC Cree technology was supposed to largely eliminate the tint lottery.


Two main reasons why you don't see more production lights with this is cost, and availability.


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## StorminMatt (Feb 2, 2017)

eraursls1984 said:


> Cree can have amazing tints. However, I feel like even the Hi-CRI generally have more of a tint lottery than Nichia. It can be harder to procure the better tinted Crees. I love the efficiency of Cree over Nichia, but this is why I generally prefer Nichia tint wise, consistency.



As I discovered the other day, Nichias can have a pretty bad tint lottery as well. I never really cared for the tint of my Astrolux S41 too much. I mean, color rendition was still pretty good (as you would expect from a 219b). But it is distinctly green. When I got my SC600Fd, it was a MAJOR improvement over that S41. Back in November, I noticed that Banggood had a sale on the S41S (stainless steel model), so I went ahead and ordered it just because I like the form factor and look of the light (and the tint wasn't too bad compared to some lights, particularly XM-L2 lights). But when I finally got it a coulle of days ago, I was BLOWN AWAY by just how good that tint was! I don't think I have ever seen a more pure shade of white from a flashlight. This just goes to show that Nichia is not exempt from the tint lottery, and tint variation can be more than you would expect even with Nichias.


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## jon_slider (Feb 2, 2017)

StorminMatt said:


> I never really cared for the tint of my Astrolux S41 too much.


yes, most of those came with very green LEDs from the presale. Sorry you got stung. Glad your later model is "normal"

I think what happened is it was an attempt to deliver a "cooler and brighter" Nichia.. trying to please the people who prioritize brightness.. unfortunately… Eagletac has been known to use unusually non pink Nichias at higher than 5000k also.


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## Lex Icon (Feb 2, 2017)

*This is a comparison between 4000K. Hi Cri Nichia Leds
219C 9050 92 Cri (240 Bin) vs. 219BT-V1 93 Cri (200 Bin)*






On the Left: Nichia 219C 9050 HiCri 4000K - From stock 2017 Eagletac TX30L2) 
On the Right: Nichia 219BT-V1 93 Cri in a Modified MecArmy PT-18 triple​ 
This being the only sample I currently have of a Nichia 219C 9050 4000K, any comparisons have to be considered accordingly.
Since the 219BT-V1 93 Cri (4000K.) image consists of 3 examples in a triple, from stock at a specific supplier, the beam temperature and tint might be more relevant, but only in regards to the current stock available at IS.
-
Using the same daylight setting, same Nokia 830 Cell phone (on a different day)




The same Nichia Led on the left….but with a Cree 5A from an Astrolux S1 on the right

​The imaging circuit in the phone tries to compensate, just as our eyes are forced to adjust. Turning off the lights in a room, and then powering up any of my 4000-5000K. Nichias, either 219B or 219C, all appear to be pretty much a neutral tint if not compared side by side. After my eyesight adjusts, and I begin to compare temperature and tints, the shadings and nuances become apparent, as in the photographs posted. However, the CREE 5A native to both Astrolux S1s I have purchased never look pleasing.
At least among the samples I possess from the two Eagletacs I own, both 219B and 219C, along with the 219Bs in the MecArmy triple, the 219B sw bin Leds appear as if grouped below ANSI bbl, reflecting the comments earlier in this thread from jon slider.


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## jon_slider (Feb 2, 2017)

Lex Icon said:


> *This is a comparison between 4000K. Hi Cri Nichia Leds
> 219C 9050 92 Cri (220 Bin) vs. 219BT-V1 93 Cri (200 Bin)*
> 
> 
> ...


Outstanding post, thanks for the detailed LED specs and great pics!
Sad 4000k 219c tint, someone else was unhappy with their 5700k 219c ET also...


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## Tachead (Feb 2, 2017)

Just for accuracy guys, the Eagletac uses a D240 L.F. bin:thumbsup:.


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## Lex Icon (Feb 2, 2017)

Tachead said:


> Just for accuracy guys, the Eagletac uses a D240 L.F. bin:thumbsup:.


Thanks for the catch, original post corrected.
Do we have any good clues as to the rest of the binning, except for likely being sm 405?


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## Lex Icon (Feb 2, 2017)

jon_slider said:


> Outstanding post, thanks for the detailed LED specs and great pics!
> Sad 4000k 219c tint, someone else was unhappy with their 5700k 219c ET also...


It could make sense for a Nichiaholic to swap the Led, if not for the TX30C2 being more of an outside light.
I wouldn’t want it for much inside use, unless perhaps mixed with other temperatures/tints in a multi emitter light. A person needing to identify and differentiate colors might not always be best served by a 4000K. Nichia binned below the ANSI BBL, if all alone by itself.


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## eraursls1984 (Feb 3, 2017)

StorminMatt said:


> As I discovered the other day, Nichias can have a pretty bad tint lottery as well. I never really cared for the tint of my Astrolux S41 too much. I mean, color rendition was still pretty good (as you would expect from a 219b). But it is distinctly green... This just goes to show that Nichia is not exempt from the tint lottery, and tint variation can be more than you would expect even with Nichias.


This is the only instance of this I've heard of, but it seemed to effect all of those lights. It still may not have been a tint lottery if they were all green, lol. Most people said they had 2 with a nice white tint, and two had a green tint.


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## Lex Icon (Feb 3, 2017)

My 90 year mother has a 30 year old sofa (I swear it is not mine) with pastel tones able to offer a more realistic palette than a white wall. I set my Nokia 830 cell phone, balanced for daylight, on top of her vintage 1972 RCA 25 inch Console Color Trak television residing in its place of honor. It hasn’t functioned for way past 20 years, but she never sits in her living room anyway, and hasn’t watched TV there since it broke. The cabinet is beautiful, that’s all that matters, since nobody is supposed to be in her Livingroom, for fear the carpet will become soiled, or her furniture somehow stained. The Retro Console TV served in place of a tripod while I gathered a series of images. I hope she never discovers I placed the old faded canvas painting directly on top of her sofa.
Seriously, 30 years without a mark on the carpet. This is all true, I could not make it up. Kind of like something from the Twilight Zone.
-
First, the contestants….. with the Eagletac TX30L2 at the left in the photograph. The MecArmy PT-18 triple is next to it, followed by an Astrolux S1 with a Cree XP-L HI V2 5A (4000K.), then another S1 with a Cree XP-L HI U4 (80+ CRI) – 3000K




219C…………….....................................…219B……................................5A.......................… U4 (80+ CRI, 3000K.)

The Cree Leds were mounted in the same Astrolux S1s formerly housing now orphaned generic 5As.
In another thread, tachead asked if I owned, and could compare the ZL SC600 MK III HI to my Eagletac TX30C2. 
The closest I could come up with is the Cree XP-L HI V2 5A2 led from Mtn.Elec. It looks great alone, a bit less greenish in real life than any of the photographs below can depict. Perhaps somebody has the requested ZL and an Eagletac TX30C2 for a more realistic comparison.
Keeping in mind that the following photos have been manipulated in the spirit of trying to depict the comparisons more realistically…….we have the 4000K. Nichia 219C 9050 (240 bin), always on the left, with the opponents listed in the following order:
3 x Nichia 219BT-V1 93 Cri (200 Bin)
CREE XP-L HI V2 5A2 – 4000K.
CREE XP-L HI U4 (80+ CRI) – 3000K.



*Control Shot of precious sofa:*






*Now the comparisons*
Nichia 219C 9050 92 Cri (240 Bin) vs. 219BT-V1 93 Cri (200 Bin), both 4000K.
*(color saturation diminished)






Nichia 219C 9050 92 Cri (240 Bin) vs. CREE XP-L HI V2 5A2 – 4000K.
*(color temperature altered)






Nichia 219C 9050 92 Cri (240 Bin) vs. CREE XP-L HI U4 (80+ CRI) – 3000K.
*(color temperature altered)





****As a point of reference, here are the original photographs shown below, for the sake of full disclosure. Keep in mind these are merely a sampling, unworthy for arriving at conclusions, or any type of consensus, YMMV.*

Nichia 219C 9050 92 Cri (240 Bin) vs. 3 x 219BT-V1 (4000K.) 93 Cri (200 Bin) in the MecArmy PT-18 triple






Nichia 219C 9050 92 Cri (240 Bin) vs. Astrolux S1 w/Cree XP-L HI V2 5A2 – 4000K






Nichia 219C 9050 92 Cri (240 Bin) vs. Astrolux S1 w/Cree XP-L HI U4 (80+ CRI) 3000K.




More (earlier) beam shots from another thread can be found at:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...ri-4000K-Beam-shot-comparison-and-impressions


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## Lex Icon (Feb 3, 2017)

Found some interesting information in charts concerning the manner in which various manufacturers bin their Leds. Some use their own proprietary binning system to avoid a problem encountered when using the MacAdam’s ellipse binning system, which rises above the ANSI BBL as the color temperature being measured increases above 4000K.














 
*Yuji in fact seems to keep a larger portion of their bins aimed below the ANSI BBL.*


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## Tachead (Feb 3, 2017)

Here is the Nichia's binning chart. This explains why many of the 4000K(SW40) Nichia's end up having a slightly greenish tint. Even with the tightest tint consistency bin they offer(sm403), you can see that far more of the bin region falls above the black body radiation line. Which means that odds wise(for SW40), when you play the Nichia tint lottery, you will score a greenish emitter about 2/3rds of the time. If you go with 3500K(SW35) instead however, you would increase your odds to 50% of getting a pinkish/magenta emitter vs. greenish.






Keep in mind, we are splitting hairs a bit here when it comes to smX03 binned emitters. Anywhere within that circle is only going to have a slight colour variation and will not likely be noticed unless compared to another emitter. Also, remember that the tint will often shift(sometimes dramatically) depending on drive/output levels, especially with constant current drivers.


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## Lex Icon (Feb 3, 2017)

Tachead said:


> Here is the Nichia's binning chart. This explains why many of the 4000K(SW40) Nichia's end up having a slightly greenish tint. Even with the tightest tint consistency bin they offer(sm403), you can see that far more of the bin region falls above the black body radiation line. Which means that odds wise(for SW40), when you play the Nichia tint lottery, you will score a greenish emitter about 2/3rds of the time. If you go with 3500K(SW35) instead however, you would increase your odds to 50% of getting a pinkish/magenta emitter vs. greenish.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


True for Nichia 219C, not 219B.
This takes us back to jon slider’s original remarks about the difference between the manner Nichia bins are determined, and how 219Cs compare to 219Bs.
Nichia 219C leds are binned according to the sm xxx system,
Nichia 219B leds are binned according to the sw xx system, more closely centered on the ANSI BBL.
See chart below.





To the point, 219B leds are somewhat more likely to be rosier than 219Cs


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## Tachead (Feb 3, 2017)

Lex Icon said:


> True for Nichia 219C, not 219B.
> This takes us back to jon slider’s original remarks about the difference between the manner Nichia bins are determined, and how 219Cs compare to 219Bs.
> Nichia 219C leds are binned according to the sm xxx system,
> Nichia 219B leds are binned according to the sw xx system, more closely centered on the ANSI BBL.
> ...



Yep, 4000K 219B's are still not centered but, they are closer to centered so you might increase your chances from 33% to about a 40% chance of getting a pinkish/magenta example(if that's what you like). Not a huge difference but, a difference none the less. One should keep in mind that the 219C offers significantly higher output and efficiency though so, it is still a better option if you value output and runtimes. 

Again, I must point out that in normal use an average person would be very unlikely to notice the difference in tint between two different examples from the tightest tint bins unless they were directly compared to one and other. So, although white wall hunting/obsessing with these elite high CRI emitters can be interesting for us enthusiasts it really doesn't matter that much in real world use. I think most people would benefit more from a brighter emitter, with longer runtimes, and a higher CRI even if its tint was not exactly what their white wall obsessive side longed for.


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## wolfgaze (Feb 3, 2017)

Today I should be receiving back a flashlight of mine that I sent off to be modified... It's Fenix LD12 that was made into a flooder with some diffusor film on the lens and I had a Nichia NVSL219BT-V1 (4000K, 93 CRI, D200 bin) LED installed... Anxious to get my hands on it.


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## tech25 (Feb 5, 2017)

Thanks Lex Icon for the photo comparisons, great idea for the pics!


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## degarb (Feb 5, 2017)

Tachead said:


> Yep, 4000K 219B's are still not centered but, they are closer to centered so you might increase your chances from 33% to about a 40% chance of getting a pinkish/magenta example(if that's what you like). Not a huge difference but, a difference none the less. One should keep in mind that the 219C offers significantly higher output and efficiency though so, it is still a better option if you value output and runtimes.
> 
> Again, I must point out that in normal use an average person would be very unlikely to notice the difference in tint between two different examples from the tightest tint bins unless they were directly compared to one and other. So, although white wall hunting/obsessing with these elite high CRI emitters can be interesting for us enthusiasts it really doesn't matter that much in real world use. I think most people would benefit more from a brighter emitter, with longer runtimes, and a higher CRI even if its tint was not exactly what their white wall obsessive side longed for.



I see an astrolux Nichia. I don't wish to spend more to test. Don't know if high cri or representative. Ghost hunting on walls.


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## Random Dan (Feb 7, 2017)

As much as I enjoy the 219C in my Eagletac D25A, I find that I don't carry it as much as my SC52w. The lack of a good moonlight mode without losing high modes, the pre-flash on low, and the annoying blinky modes are more trouble than it is worth for the better tint.

Are they any other AA 219C lights out there with a better UI?


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## Woods Walker (Feb 7, 2017)

Tint snobs can be boring. White walls and charts after charts. Your killing me.

Nichia 219B around 30 lumens illuminating a PSK far in the woods.





Same LED around 200 lumens look for a safe potential brook crossing.





Cree XM-G1 Warm maybe around 500 lumens looking to aviod slipping.





XP-E1 NW under a tarp.





XP-E1 and some unknown LEDs used by Fenix NW in a heated shelter.





Over 1500 XHP-50 NW lumens during a night run.





500 XM-L G2 NW lumens after I crawled done that. Kinda gave me the willies doing it.





XP-G2 Warm VS XM-L2 CW.






XP-G2W vs XP-G2 NW






XP-G2 Cool white. 100 lumens.





XM-L2 Cool White around 210 lumens.





Early spring newt in very very murky water with XP-G2 W.





My newt buddy. I asked the critter it's tint preference but was strangely silent on the matter so back in the water with it.





I should do a field use thread on say Cool White vs Neutral White using the same lights in various conditions. Does tint really help in the woods or is it all hype? Not charts and graphs but the human eye vs the world type thing. Perception doesn't always relate to pure numbers IMHO.


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## jon_slider (Feb 7, 2017)

Woods Walker said:


> Tint snobs can be boring. White walls and charts after charts. Your killing me.
> ...
> My newt buddy. I asked the critter it's tint preference but was strangle silent…
> I should do a field use thread on say Cool White vs Neutral White using the same lights in various conditions. Does tint really help in the woods or is it all hype? Not charts and graphs but the human eye vs the world type thing. Perception doesn't always relate to pure numbers IMHO.



You stopped by to disrespect us?  And you want to share how Bright your Low CRI Cool White lights are? 
I really enjoy your photos. They are worthy of their own thread… :wave: "Pics of Low CRI in the woods" 

I dont care for Low CRI Cool White at all, but I like pictures, they save me a lot of explaining:





A suggestion when comparing beams.. show the color of the palm of your hand with various LEDs.. it can be very illuminating, in regards to CRI..
85 CRI:





70 CRI:




whirled peas


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## Woods Walker (Feb 7, 2017)

jon_slider said:


> You stopped by to disrespect us?  And you want to share how Bright your Low CRI Cool White lights are?
> I really enjoy your photos. They are worthy of their own thread… :wave: "Pics of Low CRI in the woods"


 Naw. The snobs are ok! Output was posted within the thread. 100 lumens for the first CW and 210 for the second. Take a look at this. XP-E G1 CW maybe around 100 lumens I forget.





The context. Camp floating on a 3 foot snow base.





I liked the crazy contrast between a very cool white and the ultimate in warm. Hobo stove floating on the snow base.


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## jon_slider (Feb 7, 2017)

Woods Walker said:


> Naw. The snobs are ok!



Outstanding! 
That Hobo looks like my Nichia.. (Not!) LOL!


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## degarb (Feb 7, 2017)

Is there a page that shows 70,80,85,90,95,100, respective cri Picts of same scene, while keeping same color temperature, intensity and beam pattern? Common white balance, naturally. Though playing with white balance would be useful, because both camera and eye white balance, so after some adjustments in the brain and eye, the view and perception will change.


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## degarb (Feb 7, 2017)

I finally located some xp-l2s, unfortunately only 80 cri for the 4000k and 3000k. I recall 410 lumens at 1 amp. 470lumens at one amp for the 70 cri 4000kelvin. However, this lumen level is 85C led juncture, and I can easily get half that Celsius number with my design.


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## Lex Icon (Feb 7, 2017)

degarb said:


> Is there a page that shows 70,80,85,90,95,100, respective cri Picts of same scene, while keeping same color temperature, intensity and beam pattern? Common white balance, naturally. Though playing with white balance would be useful, because both camera and eye white balance, so after some adjustments in the brain and eye, the view and perception will change.


Subject matter is highly relevant for such comparisons.
Especially when talking about CRI 100, you will be hard pressed to find examples.
One of the only illustrations I remember seeing is shown below.








Skin tones are most challenging.


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## degarb (Feb 7, 2017)

Very good. No cct beside each photo, so forced to assume same cct in all photos, using our inner faith. 

I have not found a poor man's cri or light quality meter solution. No android app. 

There are color comparison apps. I may need to see if maybe a kid room chart and app can get some home brewed metric. Doubtful due to temperature variable of light. 

Upside, is I found an accurate color temperature app. Measured all my leds within 200 of manufacturer Kelvin rating. 

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...keting-ploys&p=3876537&viewfull=1#post3876537


https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=cassiopeia.camera


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## Woods Walker (Feb 7, 2017)

How does that women hold that panel exactly the same way for each photo? I would be moving it all over. One shot it would be above my head. Soon after I would drop it on the ground. Then picked up but the panel would be upside down. Yet she is a robot. Well it's not exactly the same but dang. She is good. LOL!


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## INFRNL (Feb 7, 2017)

I just noticed that her expression gets slightly better as the cri rating gets better. Also look at her lips, the shade is almost the same as the red square in ea pic...hahaha They must have planned that out



Woods Walker said:


> How does that women hold that panel exactly the same way for each photo? I would be moving it all over. One shot it would be above my head. Soon after I would drop it on the ground. Then picked up but the panel would be upside down. Yet she is a robot. Well it's not exactly the same but dang. She is good. LOL!


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## jon_slider (Feb 8, 2017)

Lex Icon said:


> Skin tones are most challenging.


I agree, and anything red, orange, or yellow

the most common LED CRI in Cool White is about 70CRI and the most common CRI in High CRI is about 90CRI so a lot of the info to be gleaned comes from these two pics. But fwiw, high CRI and Low CRI LEDs are usually also not the same color temperature.. Low CRI tends to be above 6000k, while the bulk of high CRI Nichias these days are in the 4-4500k range.







here is another example, courtesy of darksucks.com, I believe the top pic is a Nichia, and the bottom one a Cree





most flashlights are marketed based on their brightness specs, but the high CRI Nichias are starting to become more available, the problem is that for a given light, a Nichia version will have about ~28% more CRI than the Cree, but also ~28% less Brightness. The phosphor coating that produces more Red on a High CRI LED, consumes lumens too.
These numbers are based on the specs for the Lumintop Tool and the Prometheus Beta that offer a choice of Cree or Nichia.

imho, it is best to use specific lights, as examples of CCT and CRI, with reference to their LED type
another good source of comparative CRI and CCT info for lights available in the current market, is to look at the Zebralight spreadsheet.. you will see that lights with higher CCT have Lower CRI but higher brightness, and High CRI will tend to lower CCT and lower brightness.

I thought Woods Walkers post was excellent in regard to listing the lumen levels he was working with. As Lumens climb above 300, generally speaking, lights become cooler and lower CRI. For Example, the Jaxman E2 is about a 300 lumen High CRI light. Or the HDS High CRI, which maxes out around 200 lumens..

its much less expensive to be a tint snob with AAA lights


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## Woods Walker (Feb 8, 2017)

INFRNL said:


> I just noticed that her expression gets slightly better as the cri rating gets better. Also look at her lips, the shade is almost the same as the red square in ea pic...hahaha They must have planned that out


Maybe like those weight loss photos. Less fat bigger smile.


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## degarb (Feb 8, 2017)

Woods Walker said:


> Maybe like those weight loss photos. Less fat bigger smile.



I think the any change between the 3rd and 2nd, is purely imagination. Everything is so identical that it could be Photoshopped, dropping saturation and saving the jpg with new name. 

Though even if Photoshopped, probably, the principle is true. Arguing if it is Photoshopped is besides the point. . Just like, it doesn't make the DNC any less guilty of rigging the convention for Hillary, no matter who hacked and leaked the emails. Still, every hair strand is same between 2 and 3, every thing.


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## Tachead (Feb 8, 2017)

degarb said:


> I think the any change between the 3rd and 2nd, is purely imagination. Everything is so identical that it could be Photoshopped, dropping saturation and saving the jpg with new name.
> 
> Though even if Photoshopped, probably, the principle is true. Arguing if it is Photoshopped is besides the point. . Just like, it doesn't make the DNC any less guilty of rigging the convention for Hillary, no matter who hacked and leaked the emails. Still, every hair strand is same between 2 and 3, every thing.



The difference between the 3rd and 2nd picture is pretty obvious man, I don't think you are looking closely enough. Not only is her facial expression different but, she is holding the colour board at a different angle/height, just look at her shoulders. Her ponytail is also laying differently and the shadowing behind her is totally different as well.


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## markr6 (Feb 8, 2017)

Woods Walker said:


> How does that women hold that panel exactly the same way for each photo? I would be moving it all over. One shot it would be above my head. Soon after I would drop it on the ground. Then picked up but the panel would be upside down. Yet she is a robot. Well it's not exactly the same but dang. She is good. LOL!


Haha yeah. It seems to be a pretty good representation. But the flowers example is weak; looks like someone simply had some fun with the saturation slider in photoshop.


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## degarb (Feb 8, 2017)

No, pony tail is the same if you look closely, board is same angle, expression identical. Facial coloring, pony tail harder to see cropping is slightly different. Close enough to be Photoshopped. However, more likely two photos taken a second apart, longer between first. Just pointing out how your brain is lying to yourself over shading. Placebo effect. Got to be able to quash any emotions, step back, ignore up to 30 percent perceived change, which usually is just the placebo improvement.

Reminds me of the Brain Games episode where they took a girl in white dress, put her in a red dress, and all the guys started drooling. Same girl, same face, same curves, different colored dress.


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## Tachead (Feb 8, 2017)

degarb said:


> No, pony tail is the same if you look closely, board is same angle, expression identical. Facial coloring, pony tail harder to see cropping is slightly different. Close enough to be Photoshopped. However, more likely two photos taken a second apart, longer between first. Just pointing out how your brain is lying to yourself over shading. Placebo effect. Got to be able to quash any emotions, step back, ignore up to 30 percent perceived change, which usually is just the placebo improvement.
> 
> Reminds me of the Brain Games episode where they took a girl in white dress, put her in a red dress, and all the guys started drooling. Same girl, same face, same curves, different colored dress.



No it is not. I think you may need to have your eyes checked. Look at the right side of her ponytail. It is clearly much further to the right in the second picture and is 1cm+ to the right of her shirt strap. In the second picture however, it is right on her shirt strap. The board is also considerably higher in the 3rd picture. Notice how much more of her traps/shoulders are showing in the 2nd picture. Her expression is slightly different in each picture as well and the shadowing behind her is obviously quite different. 

These are clearly 3 different pictures. While it is possible they were photoshopped to change saturation, it is just as possible and more likely imo that they are taken with different lighting as indicated. These pictures were taken by a place that sells lighting so, they have easy access to all the required bulbs in different CRI's. And, because they sell both low and high CRI bulbs, there would really be no reason to photoshop the pictures. It would only take a couple of minutes to swap out the bulbs and why would they not want to show an accurate representation of the products they sell.

I think you may need to take off your tinfoil hat man lol. There is no government conspiracy to trick the general public into believing the benefits of higher CRI lighting.


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## markr6 (Feb 8, 2017)

Totally different shots. I kept the point of her nose in the same spot as reference, so there's no cropping, skewing, rotating going on here. At least not enough to make it matter.

Here's an animated comparison. At the very least, look at her smile in the first frame. I admit some photoshopping could be going on for dramatic effect (yea they made her hotter in the 90 CRI shot), but not necessarily to make one shot into three. They are clearly 3 different shots. She also doesn't hold the board that still. Yeah, I have some free time right now


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## jon_slider (Feb 8, 2017)

good job markr6
now that weve all had a good time looking at the woman, what do you think about her?.. I mean, what do you think about her CRI? Does she look like a tint snob? LOL


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## markr6 (Feb 8, 2017)

jon_slider said:


> good job markr6
> now that weve all had a good time looking at the woman, what do you think about her?.. I mean, what do you think about her CRI? Does she look like a tint snob? LOL



Pretty high CRI in that first shot  The other two...looking pretty snobby!


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## degarb (Feb 15, 2017)

https://youtu.be/VwS5QihrKr0


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## degarb (Feb 15, 2017)

markr6 said:


> Totally different shots. I kept the point of her nose in the same spot as reference, so there's no cropping, skewing, rotating going on here. At least not enough to make it matter.Here's an animated comparison. At the very least, look at her smile in the first frame. I admit some photoshopping could be going on for dramatic effect (yea they made her hotter in the 90 CRI shot), but not necessarily to make one shot into three. They are clearly 3 different shots. She also doesn't hold the board that still. Yeah, I have some free time right now


Mono chrome it. Don't do first. Change cropping to match.


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## degarb (Feb 15, 2017)

https://flic.kr/p/RVRYn3Vs. https://flic.kr/p/RYuF9Z one is the 80 cri, other 90 cri.I accidentally posterity one, so little blotchy.


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## wimmer21 (Feb 15, 2017)

For what it's worth, the XP-L 4000K in my Flieger is the best of my bunch. It's so creamy... like a late evening sunset. I'm embarrassed to admit my #2, but I will say the 93 cri in my Rotary is maybe top 5.


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## degarb (Feb 15, 2017)

http://www.newklages.com/NKI_AndTheOscarGoesTo.htmHmm I actually like the cqs chart the best, as there are several rows of similar colors. A little more pertinent to me. As a pale white boy-uprooted to the great lakes from the pool side in Florida, literally - , I have always suspected cri to be a tad hellbent making white pale people look good. The Macbeth chart, probably more so. . .. 

I would like to buy several copies of all 3 charts. I may need to go print some out at the library color laser or printer. Doubt if anyone sells them reasonably.


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## degarb (Feb 15, 2017)

wimmer21 said:


> For what it's worth, the XP-L 4000K in my Flieger is the best of my bunch. It's so creamy... like a late evening sunset. I'm embarrassed to admit my #2, but I will say the 93 cri in my Rotary is maybe top 5.





What bin and cri is the xpl? 

Using https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=cassiopeia.camera

I have been measuring various lights. Probably within 200 to 500 Kelvin on my phone. . I am surprised at what temperatures I find acceptable.

No app for cri or cqs, yet. Probably, will get a kids Lowe's chart, and a manual camera for better emitter evaluation and understanding potential weakness.


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## mahoney (Feb 16, 2017)

Printing up a color test chart defeats the purpose. All the colors will be created with the same 4-8 inks depending on the quality of the printer. A proper test chart should be created with pure pigments that reflect the appropriate wavelengths of light...i.e the green square should be reflecting green light, not a mixture of blue and yellow that our eyes will see as green. Some years ago I made up a board with pure pigment secondary color squares, next to the same color mixed as closely as possible from primary color pigments, eg., orange pigment paint, next to red and yellow paint mixed. It was very instructive to watch how the colors changed in different types of light


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## degarb (Feb 16, 2017)

mahoney said:


> Printing up a color test chart defeats the purpose. All the colors will be created with the same 4-8 inks depending on the quality of the printer. A proper test chart should be created with pure pigments that reflect the appropriate wavelengths of light...i.e the green square should be reflecting green light, not a mixture of blue and yellow that our eyes will see as green. Some years ago I made up a board with pure pigment secondary color squares, next to the same color mixed as closely as possible from primary color pigments, eg., orange pigment paint, next to red and yellow paint mixed. It was very instructive to watch how the colors changed in different types of light








Biggest issue this year has been off white sw flat matches that were dead on or lightish outside, under the Incan, led,... But we're dark on walls with window lighting. Very frustrating and happened several times this last year. . Obviously, sheet, Crystal structure differences of different paints, mean a color may be darker and or lighter depending on viewing and lighting angle. But these zero voc pigments seem weirder than ever... Obviously, too, you can match a color dead on with several companies pigments and paints, nearly always the will shift differently under various lighting conditions, not to mention angle. 

Anyone here sell a cqs chart? Do you have any beefs with paint store charts?


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## degarb (Feb 16, 2017)

https://www.nist.gov/pml/sensor-science/optical-radiation/color-rendering-light-sources


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## degarb (Feb 16, 2017)

Apparently, every attempt to reform cri has failed : http://lumenistics.com/is-color-quality-scale-cqs-an-improvement-on-cri/


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## Swedpat (Feb 16, 2017)

I am not sure I am a a tint snob. Even if I prefer a nice warm or neutral tint I accept a decent cool white tint. 
But I really hate a too bluish or greenish tint. And while I like a nice warm tint it is just to state: there are nasty warm tints as well. A pee yellow tint really sucks! The best is a golden warm tint. It's the crowning!


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## degarb (Feb 16, 2017)

Swedpat said:


> I am not sure I am a a tint snob. Even if I prefer a nice warm or neutral tint I accept a decent cool white tint.
> But I really hate a too bluish or greenish tint. And while I like a nice warm tint it is just to state: there are nasty warm tints as well. A pee yellow tint really sucks! The best is a golden warm tint. It's the crowning!





My kids and about every kid I have met, prefer outdoor white, 5to6000 Kelvin. Older people seem to like warm. There have been studies I have heard alluded to saying preference is also geographic. 


Also, it is a very narrow range of nm needed to reset circadian rhythms, which can be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on the time of day and activity.


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## neutralwhite (Feb 16, 2017)

these Nichia 219b 4500k 9080 looking sweet !


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## jon_slider (Feb 18, 2017)

Tint Lottery, these are all N219b:






L-R Astrolux M03, M02, and Worm head with N219b


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## twistedraven (Feb 18, 2017)

Those all look like different CCT moreso than tint lottery.


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## degarb (Feb 18, 2017)

I finally got around to gluing together my own homemade color chart, as seen above. There is zero doubt that it photographs best under higher cri bulbs. HOWEVER, the story with the human eye is a whole other story. Under light bulbs with high cri, I was still struggling to see the colors, until I supplemented with a 70 cri headlamp. Didn't matter which temperature headlamp I chose. All 70 cri headlamps. Now without the 450 lumen 90 cri bulb 2 foot away, the warmer headlamps did do better than the cool. However, once the eye white balanced the 6500 cool did pretty well. . Now, the 75 cri 3900kelvin 2500 lumen work light did the best at 2 foot, for eye differentiation of the colors, extremely well. . So, the camera is not nearly as good as the eye. 

Indeed, the hardest color the high cri 450 lumen led bulbs found, was the dark violet mauve chip. Only, the headlamps, with their extreme lux, and 2500 lumen 3900kelvin work light rendered that one well. I did note the 2012 xpg 5k Kelvin was harder to see subtle color difference than the 2014 xml 6500,which was worse than the 2016 xpl. 

Also, built a cheesey spectrascope from a tube and diffraction grating of a CD. Not enough resolution to judge various leds. Enough to see dark bands in metal halide, fluorescent, cathode ray tube, Computer screen. But I was surprised how all the leds were as full spectrum as the sun. Heavy on the yellow, viewing cool leds. . The metal halide looked full spectrum, but spikes.


8 months ago I had to hunt off white ghosts on a ceiling 18 foot up. Oddly, the 2013 cool xml beat out the 5000k xpl hi. Same lux. Possibly, it was the bluer light that helped shut down the eye and gain a better depth of field, as semiman taught. Same lumens for both lights, close. So, still not yet willing to give up a ton of lux and lumens for cri. My current cannot change, since I can only wear and charge so many cells, runtime matters. . 

I really like the cct of the v6 neutral from Intl-outdoor. Getting 373 lumens at 700 ma, like the pct. Going from this to a DigiKey 80 cri led may drop me down to 300 lumens. The drop may significantly lower my ability to see subtle ghosts.. I don't care about pretty. But would need to head to head it, all other factors equal, to know for certain. I am not psychologically altered by color, like the poster who thought the girl had while other expression. If you click my above regrouped b&w Flickr link, you can see, same hair, same expression, between 2 and third frame. Her head is slight fatter in one shot to me, like a different resize. A slight shift in her posture most likely, very subtle. But same hair, same expression. You need all the color out and one to two second black between slides, as well as the recrop. Else a resize, like the color will affect the opinion of some. Psychology, if I had lower morals, I could get rich using it.


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## jon_slider (Feb 18, 2017)

twistedraven said:


> Those all look like different CCT moreso than tint lottery.


I absolutely agree.

People tend to say "tint" when they mean CCT, I was misusing the word, for sure 

however, the two lights on the left are the same design and supposed to have the same LED, yet are vastly different, so those are actually YesLottery.

since the worm is specified as a 4500k LED, it would suggest that the Rainbow Astrolux M02 is probably 5000+ Kelvin, that part was somewhat expected.. 
what suprised me is the copper Astrolux M03, because it is also an Astrolux w Nichia, yet has a totally different Color Temperature, AND a much greener Tint

In fact, the M02 is also different from my M01, here they are in order:




the middle one is total Lottery.. a winner on paper.. pending reality testing after dark





So, in practical terms.. what is the best way to get the "tint" and CCT of the middle light again?
My guess is buy the same M02 model, and see if I get lucky to receive a similar LED (note, this is not a Low CRI cool white cree, it IS a Nichia)

Im just sharing as I learn, some specific examples to illustrate my snobbery, that is, I seem to have a lot of personal preferences, about the colors of my light beams...


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## Woods Walker (Feb 18, 2017)

Cool white vs cool white in the snow. Not all CWs are the same.





The ultimate warm tint. Burning the hydrocarbons in Birch bark. I know of nothing warmer tinted. LOL!





Or maybe there is something warmer than that deep rich hydrocarbon glow. The dying light of the hotwires on the last gasp of 2XCR123.





M61WL running DD (no PWM) in full tint shift near the end of it's battery.





XM-L2 on the little bit cooler side of NW.


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## Woods Walker (Feb 18, 2017)

NW X-G2 taking care of biz. The stream was flooded and I gotta get back across. Is NW better in the rain?





Same LED illuminating the bank. It was a crazy night in the woods. A bit overexposed in both pics but weather prevented adjustments.


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## Tachead (Feb 18, 2017)

jon_slider said:


> I absolutely agree.
> 
> People tend to say "tint" when they mean CCT, I was misusing the word, for sure
> 
> ...



Remember that there is a CCT lottery as well as a tint lottery. Two emitters from the exact same bin can have very different CCT's as well as tints. What you call the "4500K Nichia"(actually called an SW45) has a CCT range of 485K(4260-4745K).


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## wimmer21 (Feb 19, 2017)

degarb said:


> What bin and cri is the xpl?
> 
> Using https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=cassiopeia.camera
> 
> ...



Unfortunately I don't know. I asked Enrique but the only info he offered was that he believed it was 4000K. I wish I knew more because it's incredible.


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## degarb (Feb 19, 2017)

wimmer21 said:


> Unfortunately I don't know. I asked Enrique but the only info he offered was that he believed it was 4000K. I wish I knew more because it's incredible.



After doing my tests I believe that for painting (the act of seeing slight color variations among millions of possible colors) and color matching (the act of adding pigments to paint to hit a target), that cri plus a high gamut area index, is what I am after. That plus high lux and lumen levels, as then and only then, can colors and details pop. 

Cri is lame, since over saturation leads to lower cri scores. You need higher saturation with indoor lighting, since indoors is always lower light levels that wash out colors. The answer, OMG, is CQS. NIST HAS WORKED THIS OUT. This guy explains it beautifully, with examples of why a low cri light can be more vivid than a high cri light : https://youtu.be/eLaBRgDpvKI

I suspect the indolent lighting industry doesn't want to change because once you invest in thousands of dollars in meters, you probably don't wish to retool, even if it means improving on an early 1960s cri scale. 



His point that sub 3500 Kelvin lacks blues and could never get a 100 cqs, is painful, too painful, to the yellow lovers here. But seriously, no kid likes a 3000 k light, because they know intuitively something is not right. Nevertheless, somehow this was patched, so sub 3500 Kelvin lights could get a 100 cqs. Politics. 

https://youtu.be/eLaBRgDpvKI

In short, my head is now exploding with the realization how hoodwinked we all have been by cri alone. And it is high tide the 1960 cri scale gets a major overhaul!


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## wimmer21 (Feb 19, 2017)

degarb said:


> After doing my tests I believe that for painting (the act of seeing slight color variations among millions of possible colors) and color matching (the act of adding pigments to paint to hit a target), that cri plus a high gamut area index, is what I am after. That plus high lux and lumen levels, as then and only then, can colors and details pop.
> 
> Cri is lame, since over saturation leads to lower cri scores. You need higher saturation with indoor lighting, since indoors is always lower light levels that wash out colors. The answer, OMG, is CQS. NIST HAS WORKED THIS OUT. This guy explains it beautifully, with examples of why a low cri light can be more vivid than a high cri light : https://youtu.be/eLaBRgDpvKI
> 
> ...



I'm still on the first vid (thanks degarb) but I had to stop for a second (because otherwise I'll forget). For anyone who might find this video to be too long or simply have too much information to digest... I can say that for me it really gets good at 10:30... and the summary comment at 14:00 was a real eyebrow raiser! I will now continue watching and learning.


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## Woods Walker (Feb 20, 2017)

Some other field tint observations. CW appears to my eye much brighter against snow than warmer tints but somehow if it's cranking cold makes me feel more like in a freezer. Sounds crazy but that's my observation.





Differences in tint becomes much more dramatic to both my eye and the camera's eye when side by side.


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## Offgridled (Feb 20, 2017)

Snobs....lol


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## iamlucky13 (Feb 20, 2017)

degarb said:


> Cri is lame, since over saturation leads to lower cri scores. You need higher saturation with indoor lighting, since indoors is always lower light levels that wash out colors. The answer, OMG, is CQS. NIST HAS WORKED THIS OUT. This guy explains it beautifully, with examples of why a low cri light can be more vivid than a high cri light : https://youtu.be/eLaBRgDpvKI



Over-saturation isn't necessarily the goal, but it can be depending on what you want to achieve. It's not the light that is saturated per say, but the object being viewed under the light, and the light can be designed to favor some of those colors.

When he starts talking about over-saturating colors in that video, he means boosting those colors we tend to like compared to other other colors. In practice, that means actually reducing other color ranges in your light source so the colors you like are more prevalent. There's a spectral graph in that slide which is filtered by a neodymium coating - that's what the old GE "Reveal" incandescents did. You can see the reduced output in a section of that graph - somewhere around yellow. This tended to comparatively enhance the appearance of reds, greens, and especially blues, at the expense of yellows and oranges, which we're usually not too picky about - as he says in the video, they're effectively increasing the saturation of the colors we like.

Whether or not that is "better" is a matter of personal preference as he says (and the Reveal bulbs were pretty popular among those who tried them), but whether or not it is more accurate is not. It is less accurate, and there are potential pitfalls to that with regards to painting if your painting might at times be viewed under artificial light and at other times under natural light or a different type of artificial light.



> But seriously, no kid likes a 3000 k light, because they know intuitively something is not right.



I don't know what you mean by not right. An ideal 3000K light source is exactly right for a 3000K light source. It's a closer imitation of sunlight, by the way, then humans were able to achieve for hundreds of thousands of years until the invention of halogen lights.

It is true that it is not as good at rendering blues as a higher CCT source, but it can be potentially be better at rendering reds, and indeed with LED's tends to be so, since getting those lower CCT's generally means proportionately increasing the otherwise badly deficient red tones.

His chart actually shows relatively small correction factors until you get down below about 2500K - an unfactored 3000K light score would, according to the numbers he shows, be only about 1 point lower than the score if not adjusted by the factor.

All that said, the chart at the end showing the correlation in test subject preferences between lights of better CRI's versus lights of better CQS really drove home the benefits of migrating the industry to CQS.

By the way, of those who do detailed reviews on CPF, I've noticed Maukka has the equipment to measure both CRI and CQS, and he reports both numbers. His CQS scores generally seem to be very close to his CRI scores, so I'd say for most LED's, CRI is not describing the color quality as badly as you seem to suspect.


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## iamlucky13 (Feb 20, 2017)

Woods Walker said:


> Some other field tint observations. CW appears to my eye much brighter against snow than warmer tints but somehow if it's cranking cold makes me feel more like in a freezer. Sounds crazy but that's my observation.



No, I know exactly what you're talking about. Despite being white, snow does seem to bounce around blue light more in some circumstances (perhaps like how liquid water refracts blue light more), and anybody who's ever stared into a glacial crevasse knows how fascinating this can be at times.

The association with ice, water, etc. versus the association of reds, oranges, and yellows with heat is no doubt why we think of blue tones as cold.

In contrast, I sometimes expect the head of my warm tinted Armytek headlamp to be hot like a halogen light of similar brightness, simply based on the tint.


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## degarb (Feb 20, 2017)

http://www.digikey.com/il/en/techzo...rticles/rationale-of-color-quality-scale.html

Good html page above on cqs benefits. 
Neodymium incandescent and vivid rgb, penalized by looking better than a 100 cri. .

To me, yes, move to the cqs. But more importantly show me the lotus graph with target and sample. Seeing all 15 chip comparisons is also helpful. A single score doesn't tell me which colors are weak, which are strong, which shift. Armed with this information I can paint, pigment match, decorate, choose a light, better. But a single score is like telling someone to go North, when offering directions to a traveler-- arguably helpful, but so vague as to be potentially useless, or even, deadly.


Here is Dr. Ohno spreadsheet. It is interesting. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByvnKHNhvrTmMkgxRDNzM3psaGsxNkpzMktRM1Vlc3Y2bnlN/view?usp=drivesdk


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## Woods Walker (Feb 24, 2017)

It remains my belief that despite the charts and graphs tint is really within the eye of the beholder and interpretations may change based on conditions. For example.

On the right Armytek Wizard XP-L Cool White and on the right Armytek Viking XP-L NW around 1000 lumens each. All appears as one might expect or does it... 





On the right Malkoff M91W XP-G1 warm. On the left the same Armytek Viking XP-L NW around the 400ish lumen range.





So what just happened and it's not totally the camera. I remember the same thing. I have tested this with multiple lights even on a white wall. The tint appears different depending on what it is compared to and in different environments. Also for the most part everything kinda works out despite a tint preference after longer duration use. After an hour I forget about the tint thing. Yea kinda get used to it with the only exception of a few really bad examples. Have a Fenix LD10 with the worse space alien abduction blue tint ever. Even after a few hours of use it still looks horrible. That said the light is old and still works. A working light with the worst tint still beats a broken light with the best tint. Then again I said tint was within the eye of the beholder so clearly could not argue with anyone who disagreed.


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## degarb (Feb 25, 2017)

Woods Walker, this is a very interesting two photos. 

As stated, my job is pigment mixing, color matching, and slight hue shade ghost hunting during wall painting. I wish there were a better way to put it into words, some formula from cri combined with lumens to get color perception and pop. Some rule of thumb for desirable tint. But since cri is flawed, and too vague, it cannot be done. Personally, I am wondering if the regulations are over complicating things, and all we need is the spectrum graph, like the ones that come with the grow lights. Then, we would know which portions of the spectrum to watch out for (if we had also sunlight reference, and heated steel reference graph) . . Too simple, so how about adding a gamut area index rating to the published cri, like they do in Japan? Add the cqs: demand they add the cqs! But keep the cri, as I suspect it may be most useful for photography - - my tests with one page with 140ish overlapping hues and colors, tell me the camera struggles with seeing color-way more than he naked eye, and cameras are optimized for 100 cri, while the eye can better white balance and see vibrant colors in low cri, even 6500, if sufficient lux levels. 


I suspect for my job, 3500 to 6500 Kelvin is fine, from my tests. . I am surprised, formerly thinking 6000 K, and above, evil. To the eyeball, a 70 cri 6500 Kelvin 500 watt showed the chart, to the naked eye, subtle hue discrimination really well. No issues seeing reds. . But the camera loves its 100 cri, even if the light had 100 times lower output. In all fairness, I gave my eye a full minute to adjust and white balance, while the camera only took 2 to 4 seconds to adjust before clicking. . Nevertheless, I probably will stick to 4000kelvin to 5000k, just out of gut preference. While my eye seems to not care about cri, I know the camera does. Also, I don't expect reform of the standards, due to politics. I will continue to look at the cri, but take it with a grain of salt. Others, at best, can argue that cri is the canary in the coal mine-ignoring the better methods for measurement. 

90 cri, 3000K :




70 cri 6500k:




I bumped saturation of both, to better show how the human eye saw the charts. Though in person, one can see way more difference in the hues. (10 million colors, is the eye number that Google tells me.) Every chip and partial chip on the chart is a different hue color. The off blacks look like one color to the camera, but are shades of blues, greens, and purples to the human eye. And yes, angle of viewing changed the human eye color shift. Yes, a headlamp, made certain hues more apparent. There is no perfect lighting for the human eye, doing what I do- discrimination. Mixing light colors, changing viewing angle, not trusting the high cri alone, as the dark purples all look alike in high cri to eye. And, for heaven sake, up those lumens to see, with the eye, the colors better.

I did email Dr. Ohno of the National Institute of Standards, and asked why not add an additional separated cqs score for each of the three primary light colors: red, green, blue. No reply.


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## degarb (Feb 25, 2017)

Also, Woods Walker, back to your point, when gathering my samples, I was disturbed and intrigued by one relative color phenomenon. I would have three shades of a color in my left hand, fanned like a card game hand. The one on the right would be the darkest. When I would interposed the two lighter colors, their appearance seemed to disturbingly change. I would need to change lighting, and repeatedly swap the two lighter colors, just to figure out the order of darkness progression. 

I will get around to exploring this illusion later, under various lights and chromatic variations. Just creepy to me, for now. Not sure if psychology, lighting, or pigment perception law of physics. For now, for me, in the to be explored later bin.

Yet, this phenomenon probably comes in to play several times a year, when clients decide that a color looks totally different than the chip. Going back to the 80s I realized the surrounding colors affected perceived color, as does lighting level. But never expected such a perception jump over 1.5 inch shift from another color.


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## degarb (Feb 25, 2017)

Ultimately, for my profession, my dream is a color tunable headlamp, with at least 150 lumen per watt, at least 4000 candela, battery pack of 2 or more 18650s, infinitely dimming driver, with a minimum runtime of 10 hours (no accidental high mode use). 

Currently make my own headlamp, host free, from buckpuck 700 ma max, computer finned heat sinks, xpl 187 lpw, 4700 Kelvin, and lots of epoxy with metal powder. So, much better than anything you can buy. Some day I will post photos in homemade light forum, cause you all are on wrong track with obsession with tubes and closed bezel that doesn't vent the heat. I water proof with epoxy the aluminum reflector onto star and epoxy electronic contacts. I don't care if it rains into the open bezel, the bezel attaches to a finned cpu heat sink that has thin bolt glued to it as the pivot for the head. I can both torque a nut and use rubber band or elastic to give stiffness to the pivot. . Elastic is cheap, but my beloved amazing goop is getting expensive.


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## iamlucky13 (Feb 27, 2017)

Degarb, I think you might find these Yuji high CRI COB's interesting. If you scroll down, there's a couple videos of a user who made custom photography lights with them. They're not super high efficacy, they're expensive, and they're too large and power hungry to be suitable for a headlamp, but I wonder if they might fit your needs if built into a custom work light.

http://store.yujiintl.com/collections/frontpage/products/bc-series-cob-400hs?variant=488243517


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## YummyBacon! (Feb 27, 2017)

Ooooh, just found this thread! Feels good to be home


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## wimmer21 (Feb 27, 2017)

The assessment of one with a limited experience such as myself carries little weight, but despite that fact I'd like to set the record straight. I posted recently that the hi cri beam of my HDS Systems EDC Rotary was at best top 5 in my rotation. After further review I'm compelled to report that my previous declaration is dramatically inaccurate. The EDC Rotary, in terms of accurate color rendering, is in fact cleary and without doubt the very best of my modest collection. 

The mistake I made was assuming that beauty in colors provided by late evening sunlight was "better" than that which my Rotary produced. Not even close... total rookie boner observation that was. The warmer tints are often times more pleasing, but that does not translate to superiority over true hi cri 90+ rated emitters for accurate color presentation. I still have much to learn... including more about cqs.


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## degarb (Feb 27, 2017)

iamlucky13 said:


> Degarb, I think you might find these Yuji high CRI COB's interesting. If you scroll down, there's a couple videos of a user who made custom photography lights with them. They're not super high efficacy, they're expensive, and they're too large and power hungry to be suitable for a headlamp, but I wonder if they might fit your needs if built into a custom work light.
> 
> http://store.yujiintl.com/collections/frontpage/products/bc-series-cob-400hs?variant=488243517




Yuji is interesting. 

I love the part in the video, where he drops the $165 yuji chip. . In what country, are is yuji and it's factories? 

Before investing in this, I would want to see a head to head comparison with the Yuji v. Cree cxa 3590, http://www.cree.com/LED-Components-and-Modules/Landing-pages/CXA 

At that price, best to know everything. Choose a bad driver, bad part, inferior form factor, output needed... Once the mistake is realized, one would be kicking themselves.... So, I have this $350, in my pocket. Do I buy more 18650s, better chargers with more bays, more wearable lighting parts for a higher generation light, another one or two 130,000 lumen 1000watt Metal halide growlight, spectrometer, some high cri ceramic mh bulbs to replace current ones, or a 6,000 lumen high cri 100 watt that is dimmer than my $10 500 watt halogens? 


My 50 watt $18 eBay light worked fine for 2 hour tasks until left on for a full 14 hours. Upon returning home, I found a burned out 50 watt cob. So, I desoldered the cool 50 watt, soldered in a $4 100watt warm cob that hasn't burned out yet--underdriven. So, my question is: there has to be some innate failure rate of ALL brands, some very high/some very low, and what is their warranty, if any? . And, I wonder if the density of the cob leads to higher failure, because the led is less robust and too concentrated? . My SMD 500 and 200 watt led lights have been run all day many, many times and not burned out. . Also, I might trust the Cree SiC more for led resilience, since the xml2 is much harder to kill than the xml. . 

A digression into cob durability, but a yuji v. 80 and 90 cri cxa 3590, wouldn't be.


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## archimedes (Feb 27, 2017)

I think that Yuji is based in China


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## degarb (Feb 27, 2017)

http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2015/12/f27/tm-30_fact-sheet.pdf


Just read the tm-30-15 specs. . This is the holy grail. http://yujiintl.com/tm-30-15-high-fidelity-full-color-gamut-led-lighting

LED magazine had good article, http://www.ledsmagazine.com/article...cesTestingRss+(LEDS+-+Services+&+Testing+RSS) 

The CIE had better adopt this tm-30 standard! This is what I am after. If I only shot photos, I might not care. But, I use lights with my eyes to hunt subtle hue shifts. 

This tm-30 standard is what we need. Too bad engineers love numeric naming and it wasn't called the "99 luft balloons" proposal, for a more memorable impact.


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## wimmer21 (Feb 27, 2017)

I have a Thrunite TN-30 but I'm guessing there's a difference. 

I'm sorry


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## archimedes (Feb 27, 2017)

Very interesting info on the TM-30-15 @degarb ... thanks !

The discussion of the Rg gamut index makes me wonder if some of the exceptionally good (lucky?) emitters which really seem to make colors "pop" might be due to better (or even over-)saturation ?


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## iamlucky13 (Feb 27, 2017)

Yuji is based in China, and their shipping fees are really steep because they don't seem to have any US distributors. As far as I can figure out, their specialty is concocting high quality phosphors, but they buy the bare blue or violet LED's (yes, they have violet based LED's that achieve even better color quality) from a dedicated chip maker to place their phosphor on. That's my speculation based on their "About Us" page, not something they've explicitly stated.

Anyhow, I'm not saying to definitely go that route. I just thought it was an option you might be interested to know about. I can't answer questions about durability, although I know somewhere on these forums is an old thread from a member who did his own lifespan tests of various LED's, and I know he found the Cree's far outlasted the no-name samples he tried, so I think it's likely the ebay COB you have was simply of poor quality. I hope the Yuji is high quality, but I have no way of vouching for that.

A bunch of us on this forum have some of the Yuji low power (6-8 lumen) 5mm LED's stuck in various lights that a couple generous members previously shared. Despite not being very bright, they produce an impressively natural looking light. I'd be thrilled to have them in high power lights, but haven't tried any advanced modding so far, so have been hesitant to buy any of their larger products like their 5W COB's.


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## degarb (Feb 28, 2017)

archimedes said:


> Very interesting info on the TM-30-15 @degarb ... thanks !
> 
> The discussion of the Rg gamut index makes me wonder if some of the exceptionally good (lucky?) emitters which really seem to make colors "pop" might be due to better (or even over-)saturation ?



Soroaa, yuji, the high cri makers, seem to support tm-30-15. The Soraa article does praise the CIE slow, but solid work, on the CRI, which has not changed since the early 1960s.

http://www.premierltg.com/tm30-vs-cri/







2008: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/col.20399/full


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## archimedes (Feb 28, 2017)

Not sure if anyone around still remembers, but a long time ago (when most white LED had very poor CRI) , milky had a number of mods where he added a (sometimes adjustable) red emitter to several white emitters ....


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## degarb (Feb 28, 2017)

I missed that one. 8 years ago a brave photographer used deep Crimson leds with white leds. 

Joaquin had a 17 percent halogen idea, I probably will never get around to testing any time soon. But was intrigued.


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## iamlucky13 (Feb 28, 2017)

archimedes said:


> Not sure if anyone around still remembers, but a long time ago (when most white LED had very poor CRI) , milky had a number of mods where he added a (sometimes adjustable) red emitter to several white emitters ....



The Philips L-Prize bulb used this technique, too. I wonder if the Cree 85 CRI 3-Way bulb I have uses the same technique - it has an ever-so-slightly pink hue to it.

I took apart a dead Feit 90+ CRI bulb recently (I killed it testing their warning not to use them in enclosed fixtures). It had two different types of emitters in it. One had a normal looking yellow phosphor. The other had an orange-colored phosphor. I assume the latter was much heavier on the red-components when illuminated.


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## ssanasisredna (Feb 28, 2017)

archimedes said:


> Not sure if anyone around still remembers, but a long time ago (when most white LED had very poor CRI) , milky had a number of mods where he added a (sometimes adjustable) red emitter to several white emitters ....



It is generally more efficient to add a red LED to low CRI high efficiency white phosphor LEDs than to add a phosphor with more red. The phosphors that produce more red product a wide peak that extends into the deep red and infrared where the eye has little/no sensitivity hence lowering Lumens/Watt. The single red led peak raises the CRI without generating low/no sensitivity red.


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## ssanasisredna (Feb 28, 2017)

This 



emarkd said:


> The problem with labeling a certain light has having better tint than another is that LEDs are mass-produced items with a defined range of tolerance - the infamous tint lottery. So one persons "perfect" SC600mk3 HI (and mine nearly is) will be another person's green bomb. The only way to avoid that is to only use tightly-binned emitters (low McAdams steps) or, even better, to hand-test and pick emitters as you customize your own lights. Very few manufacturers want to spend the extra for low-step emitters and _no_ factory light is going to be hand-picked. So for me, as a tint-snob, I can say that I love the tint on my triple 219b sw45 d220 r90 Solarforce, or my triple 219c sw403 r9050 Sinner, or my 119AT-H1 sw45B10L McGizmo mule, but unfortunately, unless you hand-pick and test yourself as you build these things, ymmv.
> 
> Good luck tint snobs. Our affliction isn't easy to manage at times, and it certainly isn't cheap.


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## neutralwhite (Feb 28, 2017)

Very nice tints !.



ssanasisredna said:


> This


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## degarb (Feb 28, 2017)

ssanasisredna said:


> It is generally more efficient to add a red LED to low CRI high efficiency white phosphor LEDs than to add a phosphor with more red. The phosphors that produce more red product a wide peak that extends into the deep red and infrared where the eye has little/no sensitivity hence lowering Lumens/Watt. The single red led peak raises the CRI without generating low/no sensitivity red.



Do you recall the nanometer range of red that is best for a balance of efficiency.


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## neutralwhite (Feb 28, 2017)

So would this say apply to the new Nichia 4500 9080 LED's with more red ?.



ssanasisredna said:


> It is generally more efficient to add a red LED to low CRI high efficiency white phosphor LEDs than to add a phosphor with more red. The phosphors that produce more red product a wide peak that extends into the deep red and infrared where the eye has little/no sensitivity hence lowering Lumens/Watt. The single red led peak raises the CRI without generating low/no sensitivity red.


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## jon_slider (Feb 28, 2017)

ssanasisredna said:


> The phosphors that produce more red… lowering Lumens/Watt. The single red led peak raises the CRI without generating low/no sensitivity red.



true, but for a light with one LED, such as the N219b SW45 in the Lumintop Tool, I will take the 32% Higher CRI (92vs 70CRI) and accept 27% less brightness. (80 lumens vs 110)



neutralwhite said:


> So would this say apply to the new Nichia 4500 9080 LED's with more red ?.


yes, a "neutral white" (4500k) High CRI LED will have lower brightness (and Color Temp) than a "cool white" (6000k) Low CRI LED

for me, High CRI is not optional, if I need more brightness, I move to a light with more powerful batteries, not cooler CCT or lower CRI.


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## degarb (Feb 28, 2017)

What is the lumen per watt of the nicha 219? Google isn't telling me. So it is near the xpl 202 lpw in a neutral? 

Color to eye is illuminance +CRI (1960 standard )+saturation/ gai 

https://energy.gov/eere/ssl/tm-30-frequently-asked-questions

I already charge the equivalent of 32 aa cells a day. Hate to think I would need double this number. 

My bet is the cxa3590 at 100watts shows color better, to the eye, than a Yuji, just because it puts out double the lumens and CRI ain't that bad. 

The above is not likely true for a photographer or filmmaker. Cameras are optimized for 100 cri. But, they still cannot see color hues as well as the human eye.


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## Connor (Mar 2, 2017)

Just found this on the InterWebz: https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/...xelsso-why-do-the-strawberries-still-look-red

Color constancy .. is a *****, apparently. ;-)


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## jon_slider (Mar 2, 2017)

3000k XPG, 4000k N219b, 4500k N219b






I only use the light on the left in full dark adapted situations, such as late night bathroom runs. It does NOT look orange at that time. (brain white balance is not set to sunlight)

I prefer the Pink Nichia in the evening, it does not Look pink when my brain's white balance is adapted to the 3000k incandescent light in my house.

I prefer the more "White" Nichia during the day, when my eyes are adapted to sunlight.


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## Tachead (Mar 2, 2017)

degarb said:


> *What is the lumen per watt of the nicha 219?* Google isn't telling me. So it is near the xpl 202 lpw in a neutral?
> 
> Color to eye is illuminance +CRI (1960 standard )+saturation/ gai
> 
> ...



The 219C is up to 160 lm/watt.


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## spgrk (Mar 2, 2017)

wacbzz said:


> I am less concerned about "tint" than I am about color rendering. I am ever so thankful that I paid ~ $16 for my Jaxman E2 with the Nichia 219b. With all the many lights I have purchased over the years with supposed great "tint," nothing I have ever owned LED wise - including HDS 219 lights and Malkoff HCRI dropins - has ever touched the color rendering of this 5700k light.



Agree - the 5700K Nichia 219 in the Jaxman E2 is better than anything else I have seen. I have other lights with warmer Nichia 219's (I think 4000K) and they are not as good; the tint looks cream or tan coloured. The 5700K LED just looks like clean white sunlight with excellent colour rendering. I would welcome comments from anyone who has seen the 5700K version of this LED in other lights - I believe Eagletac make one.


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## neutralwhite (Mar 2, 2017)

Yuji LED 5600 is the best I've seen!.



spgrk said:


> Agree - the 5700K Nichia 219 in the Jaxman E2 is better than anything else I have seen. I have other lights with warmer Nichia 219's (I think 4000K) and they are not as good; the tint looks cream or tan coloured. The 5700K LED just looks like clean white sunlight with excellent colour rendering. I would welcome comments from anyone who has seen the 5700K version of this LED in other lights - I believe Eagletac make one.


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## jon_slider (Mar 2, 2017)

spgrk said:


> I would welcome comments from anyone who has seen the 5700K version of this LED in other lights - I believe Eagletac make one.



I wish there was a way to see what you see, with pictures, but here is a post about an ET

#70


Dr Forinor said:


> I have to now point out that after testing my EagleTac D25C Ti 2017 Nichia 219B 5700K last night, I find it of low CRI.
> 
> I compared it against my [very] cool white HDS Rotary (for the cool white section), and against my Malkoff NW & McGizmo Haiku XP-G2 (for the neutral/warm white section).
> 
> The colours from the D25C seem much more similar to the cool white HDS than they do with the Malkoff or McGizmo. Very disappointed, I must say.



it does not sound like ET uses the same tint bin as Jaxman

here is another post, about the _D25A Ti 2017 Nichia 219B 5700K:_
#38


Digital Copywrite said:


> I'm probably returning it due to the tint.
> ...
> I have a hard time believing what I'm seeing is 92 CRI. … blues are very exaggerated...
> ...
> Tint isn't everything to me, but I bought the light for it, and it did not deliver.



I have not seen a test of the ET, the Jaxman scores really high, 




more graphs of other lights here, including ET, Tool, and Zebra


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## iamlucky13 (Mar 2, 2017)

neutralwhite said:


> Yuji LED 5600 is the best I've seen!.



I haven't seen the 5600K, but the 3200K certainly looks excellent, even if I only have one in a coin cell light to compare to anything.

I'm toying with the idea of trying an 18V worklight mod using their BC-135L 10W COB and a Buckpuck driver. Basically a mini-version of what I suggested to degarb. I'm not sure when I'll have time for the project though.


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## twistedraven (Mar 3, 2017)

How many people who swear by 4000-4500k 'neutral white' LEDs calibrate their computer monitors and TVs to a 4000-4500k white balance?

I personally like anything 4500-5500k in a flashlight, but I calibrate my monitors and TVs to 5800k.


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## degarb (Mar 3, 2017)

twistedraven said:


> How many people who swear by 4000-4500k 'neutral white' LEDs calibrate their computer monitors and TVs to a 4000-4500k white balance?
> 
> I personally like anything 4500-5500k in a flashlight, but I calibrate my monitors and TVs to 5800k.



Don't the monitors and TVs do this automatically? And if so, 5800k is the standard? 

After purchasing the before mentioned cct meter on Playstore by [email protected] I would have been guessing many lights I liked as warmer. 


What price are we talking for this 10 watt Yuji ? I have a few buckpucks. But, so beloved are they by me, that I shall not easily marry them to any tramp led with a good dowry. BC-135L..


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## staticx57 (Mar 3, 2017)

Here is a comparison between a cool white low CRI XML2 and a 5700k 219b high CRI. Since these are the only light sources in the room and lit one at a time the camera white balanced to each. In reality both are cool. The important part is the colors.


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## twistedraven (Mar 3, 2017)

degarb said:


> Don't the monitors and TVs do this automatically? And if so, 5800k is the standard?



Nope, monitors and TVs can be all over the place out of the factory in terms of white point. The sRGB standard calls for a 6500k white point, but I feel that to be slightly too cool. I like 5800k as it is slightly warmer, but not to the point of being yellow like 5000k-5500k can look. A lot of laptops and computer monitors can even be at around 8000k white point from the factory, and look bluish.




staticx57 said:


> Here is a comparison between a cool white low CRI XML2 and a 5700k 219b high CRI. Since these are the only light sources in the room and lit one at a time the camera white balanced to each. In reality both are cool. The important part is the colors.




Good picture, the results are very similar to my findings when I took a comparison picture that included a low CRI 5700k vs the high CRI 5700k Nichia.


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## Tachead (Mar 3, 2017)

degarb said:


> Don't the monitors and TVs do this automatically? And if so, 5800k is the standard?
> 
> *After purchasing the before mentioned cct meter on Playstore by [email protected] I would have been guessing many lights I liked as warmer.
> *
> ...



I wouldn't trust those CCT apps as they can be wildly inaccurate and even the best ones under ideal conditions aren't very accurate.

In fact, the very one you are using was tested by a member here and wasn't very accurate. I have the same one and asked him to test it.


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## iamlucky13 (Mar 3, 2017)

degarb said:


> What price are we talking for this 10 watt Yuji ? I have a few buckpucks. But, so beloved are they by me, that I shall not easily marry them to any tramp led with a good dowry. BC-135L..



I can't figure out what a good dowry means in this metaphor. :thinking:

Their website lists them as 5 for $40, and I'm told their shipping is $19. I figured if I do decide to buy some, I'd probably keep two for myself and try to sell the others. Unfortunately, although another page on their site says they make a 4000K version, which would likely be the most versatile option for me, their online store doesn't list it, so 3200K and 5600K are the next two best options.
https://store.yujiintl.com/collections/frontpage/products/bc-series-cob-135l?variant=19809795399

Their forward voltage falls somewhere in the 14-17V range. They have a 600mA design rating and 900mA max, so I think they should pair well with a 700 mA buckpuck if those specs are honest. Including 2.5V overhead for the buckpuck, the working voltage range for an 18V tool battery (15-21V) is marginal, but I assume what I will see is a falloff in output starting somewhere between 16.5 and 19.5V.

I'm not clear from their datasheet if they're intended to be surface mounted or soldered to wires, and I'll have to plan my heat sinking around that once I know.


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## staticx57 (Mar 3, 2017)

Here, I set up a still life. I also edited the RAW and removed the color temp as much as I can to make it all fairly equal by setting all to the advertised color temp of the LED. I also removed the green/magenta correction from the camera so the bad green shift of the cree shows. Interestingly the SBT70 had no magenta/green correction so I am guessing it is pretty spot on.

First some 100 CRI Halogen lighting 3200K




Here is a Nichia 083B high CRI 90+ 4500k




Here is a LOW CRI XML2 6500K




Nichia 219B 90+ CRI 5700k




Luminus SBT-70 90+ CRI 5700k


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## jon_slider (Mar 3, 2017)

staticx57 said:


>


That's what I'M Talking About!!!
voted best CRI test of the year


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## degarb (Mar 4, 2017)

Tachead said:


> I wouldn't trust those CCT apps as they can be wildly inaccurate and even the best ones under ideal conditions aren't very accurate.
> 
> In fact, the very one you are using was tested by a member here and wasn't very accurate. I have the same one and asked him to test it.



I am not relying on it, rather testing many emitters I know. . I was surprised how accurate it is, between 200 and 500 K. Probably, dead on if you had enough lights to test, and could figure out best paper, best testing lux, how to adjust for various ranges... I never expected it to be even 1000k close, due to no calibration, to how many brands of devices. . I do have a decent Moto G4, octacore, and the camera is better than former phones. 

I have a 4000K xml2 from ledsupply.com, I forgot to measure, then 2 days ago, it nailed it. . However, I no longer buy flashlights, rather parts, so I know the bin specs. Here, within 200k or 500k range, depending on technique and practice. Closer than a human can guess. 

I see cct meters on eBay for $100 to $200. However, for average Joe, upgrading their phone or camera is a better investment. 


Only found one other cct on Playstore. It only throws up 4000k or 5000k, but no idea if it is rounding or this is last cct threshold crossed. This other one is free, while the more specific one cost a whole buck.


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## degarb (Mar 4, 2017)

jon_slider said:


> That's what I'M Talking About!!!
> voted best CRI test of the year



There are so many things wrong with the above, I hate to let past, with that hand photo. 

Let's assume not old xml bin. Still, the low cri has Hotspot, the high cri is flood. This means the camera is blown out, with a lux 20 times the hi cri. Over 20k lux probably at that range, where even in my test in upper teens, that lux level blows out the human eye for color. 

Then the camera doesnt see what the human eye sees. 

I tried this test last night with 5 flashlight from cool to 4000Kelven. Then desk lamp,3000k, hi cri . The high cri desk lamp photographed best for many reasons. Firstly, the flood nature allowed the camera to adjust, where a dark room with Hotspot, the camera seemed to not have a clue how to adjust... Then, could not escape that on low cri the camera couldn't take a quarter accurate photo as to the colors I was seeing. I could see perfectly the reds, details, both red arteries, green veins, purple veins. Camera only saw washed blow out.(manual or automatic) . 

There is no doubt the warmer lights were more flattering to the eye. Actually, the coolest light offered the most accurate description of my superficial white body skin health. I could see dry patches, purple, green veins best-contrasts between healthy and dying, flaking skin areas were most apparent in the cool light. The xpl 4700K had the best balance of showing the red capillaries, purple and green veins and dry skin areas of the hand.... The cool was the ugliest for sure... 

Again, what is the goal? Flattery, or examination?


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## twistedraven (Mar 4, 2017)

It's a real good test. I find skin to be the easiest and most effective way of photographing tint and color rendering differences between emitters. Sure, we don't know the exact color of his skin, and sure, the camera might be getting the actual appearance slightly wrong, but we all have skin on ourselves and see it everyday, so it's a very ubiquitous thing that we know how should look.
Also, I don't think he would use a 20k lux hotspot for taking a picture at such a close range.


I saw very much the same thing when I tested the 5700k 70cri xhp35 vs the 5700k 90cri 219b on my hand-- both in camera and in person, seen here. The lowest CRI light makes the skin look sickly green, while the highest CRI lights give the skin a pinky flesh quality. The Luxeon T has near the same CCT and CRI of the Easywhite, but it has a slight green tint to its hotspot, whereas the Easywhite is overall closer to the BBL.


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## Tachead (Mar 4, 2017)

degarb said:


> I am not relying on it, rather testing many emitters I know. . I was surprised how accurate it is, between 200 and 500 K. Probably, dead on if you had enough lights to test, and could figure out best paper, best testing lux, how to adjust for various ranges... I never expected it to be even 1000k close, due to no calibration, to how many brands of devices. . I do have a decent Moto G4, octacore, and the camera is better than former phones.
> 
> I have a 4000K xml2 from ledsupply.com, I forgot to measure, then 2 days ago, it nailed it. . However, I no longer buy flashlights, rather parts, so I know the bin specs. Here, within 200k or 500k range, depending on technique and practice. Closer than a human can guess.
> 
> ...



How are you testing how accurate it is? You realize that emitter bins can vary by several hundreds of Kelvin up or down right? Just because it is a 4000K bin doesn't mean it is 4000K. The bin spec is 4000K nominal. 

The exact app you are using has been tested by a member here as I said. He tested it against a high end professional unit and it proved to be quite inaccurate(several hundreds of Kelvin off on some examples). I also have tested it on my Samsung Galaxy S7 Edge and it also proved to be quite inaccurate and not very repeatable. 

I was just passing on the info to let you know that it should only be used as a very rough guide and is not very reliable. I use it too but, understand it's limitations.


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## neutralwhite (Mar 4, 2017)




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## degarb (Mar 4, 2017)

Tachead said:


> How are you testing how accurate it is? You realize that emitter bins can vary by several hundreds of Kelvin up or down right? Just because it is a 4000K bin doesn't mean it is 4000K. The bin spec is 4000K nominal.
> 
> The exact app you are using has been tested by a member here as I said. He tested it against a high end professional unit and it proved to be quite inaccurate(several hundreds of Kelvin off on some examples). I also have tested it on my Samsung Galaxy S7 Edge and it also proved to be quite inaccurate and not very repeatable.
> 
> I was just passing on the info to let you know that it should only be used as a very rough guide and is not very reliable. I use it too but, understand it's limitations.



Yes, understand the limitations. 

Understand, there is a technique. 

Understand expensive meters will be calibrated. You will need to get this part down yourself. 

Try it on several bulbs that claim a cct. Your phone might not work like mine. I do own only about 8 smart phones, maybe more. Groupon and freedom pop that supplement my two main mvno. I, however, only tested on one phone. 200k to 500 k seems very consistent, possibly due to bin variation. But, I probably have only tested a dozen lights of stated k. I use common sense and use several white pages that are stacked, lux meter, standard meter distancing, angle standardization. Several, snapshots. . Actually more consistent than a lux reading that can vary hugely during a reading of a Hotspot. 

In the end, once tested, this is certainly better than guessing. . Small variables can negate or augment results, as I deal with daily trying to calculate hundreds of man hours of rough measurements before a job is begun. . Usually, variations cancel each other out, rarely augmenting.


Of course, find me a $30 cct meter, I will convert in a heartbeat. But, $100 cct meter is a poor investment, since one always knows the cct of lights you buy, except a few. . Also, I am just tired of average Joe on street guessing cct. Hopefully, this can offer a common reference


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## jon_slider (Mar 4, 2017)

Thanks to twistedraven for these


twistedraven said:


>



Im copying them to a thread that others can add their own hand beam shots to
Collected Hand Beamshots XPG, N219b, E01, and more!


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## degarb (Mar 5, 2017)

jon_slider said:


> Thanks to twistedraven for these
> 
> 
> Im copying them to a thread that others can add their own hand beam shots to
> Collected Hand Beamshots XPG, N219b, E01, and more!



I hate to burst the bubble again, just zoomed picture the 85 cri easy white IS likely the most accurate rendering of the hand. You can see veins that the red exaggerated images are totally blind to. . Accuracy v. Flattery. . Trust me, I spent first 18 years of my life working on hiding my pale skin-laying in sun, tanning creams, pills for tanning. And worrying about blue veins under the eyes, bags, willing to pay for red light to minimize. . Now, examination lighting is more important.

P. S. , the daylight hand color is more likely yellowish, not red. Looking now at my hand through daylight window. Here, daytime:


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## twistedraven (Mar 5, 2017)

Having taken the pictures in person and knowing what my hand looks like under multiple conditions, the 5700k Nichia is by far the most accurate to midday direct sunlight, while the Easywhite and 4500k Nichia are about on par with each other. The 5700k Nichia is tinted slightly towards the Magenta side of things, while the 4500k Nichia is pretty balanced with little tint shift. The easywhite has a small yellow shift. In person when it's the only light source, it makes my hand look like I'm an asian, which I'm not. The Nichias might look red exaggerated next to the rest of the lights, but that's because they have decent deep red rendering (70-80 R9 respectively) while the other lights are floating around 0-10, and in the 5700k XHP35's case, probably like -30.


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## degarb (Mar 5, 2017)

I just attached my daytime, photo,in above post. Not nichia red. I did attach the most red version of 4 shots. More yellow, but less yellow than my eyes see. A high lux, so less examination quality. So I see less veins, white residual paint in hand print from oil white paint ingrained between lines, and can not see dry patches of skin.


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## twistedraven (Mar 5, 2017)

It's overcast where I am today so I can't take a picture under direct sunlight, but I'll try to sometime soon.


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## degarb (Mar 6, 2017)

This is a daylight hand

9am: 



10:30 am. 



1pm highest outdoor value: 



Now, inside under Toys R US florescent, apparently high cri: 








The hand also looked overly red under grocery store florescent lighting. Outside, the red is there, but also all the yellows, blue and green, in a strong but balanced rendering. 

I am shocked at how red the store florescent renders, after spectrometry of my home 3000k CFL had barely any deep red.


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## iamlucky13 (Mar 6, 2017)

degarb said:


> The hand also looked overly red under grocery store florescent lighting. Outside, the red is there, but also all the yellows, blue and green, in a strong but balanced rendering.
> 
> I am shocked at how red the store florescent renders, after spectrometry of my home 3000k CFL had barely any deep red.



Basically, they're over-saturated in at least part of the red range. I think I said above that over-saturation can be good or bad depending on what you're actually trying to achieve. If accurate rendering is the goal, you want neutral saturation.

From what I've seen, tubular fluorescents usually have a higher CRI than compact fluorescents - I guess they use a different phosphor mix. Probably they also have a strong peak in the near/orange-reds, hence why they often have a slightly pink hue.


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## jon_slider (Mar 6, 2017)




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## degarb (Mar 7, 2017)

I received my calibrated diffraction grating with plastic housing. Also previously made my own. They don't, even the lab one, give enough resolution to conclude much other than the spectrum graphics seem to chop off bottom 90 percent of what you can see with the eye by looking at the diffraction light. The leds, even cool, are a full rainbow. The cool leds, do scream in the yellow, yet have plenty of apparent Crimson-the deep violets appear slightly concerning. You can see a dimmer band between green and blue, with led: but stronger red and Crimson that the above graphic suggests . The CFL does look with brighter bands, matching above graphic. I haven't done all my metal halides, but my basement 400 watt 4700K has six brighter bands violet, dark blue, cyan, yellow, red, deep Crimson. Doing hue chart tests none of the lights are blind, even the cool 6500K. Lower lux lights, make the eye work harder to see colors. Though, the eye has no problem seeing red on my hand with any of my lights that are neutral or below, regardless of cri. Because, no matter what the graph says, all the spectrum is there, unlike a low pressure sodium. Also, we all have seen red green blue projector TVs combine the primary colors to make other colors. I read that rgb lights make colors pop. But shift the colors. 


Having matched a few thousand color in the paint stores since the 80s, I do find the Evolution of the florescent cri interesting--especially as they are being phased out with leds. (Led marketing has a history of hype, that takes at least 5 years after the products hit, for the technology to catch up to fulfill the promise.) I see 98 cri florescent bulb in a quick Google search. The paint store just swapped the florescent for led bulbs. But no one, including me, is convinced it is better. Something is missing, probably higher lux levels or lumen levels that we had before. Still the need for light box with several bulb types, and running outside to see outside. Still color isn't real, it is just what that physical surface chooses to bounce, depending on many variables. Perception is relative as well.


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## degarb (Mar 7, 2017)

The first graphic of sunshine doesn't match the bottom. Probably, it is the half hour within sunrise or sunset, to try to prove a point. 

With the exception of cloudy day 40 min before sunset, I prefer a violet pink, gradient sunglasses that are quite light on filtering-for max color pop and hue hunting. Just enough to pull out some blue scatter. This is not unlike people who prefer an outdoor white leds, over cool, as best balance to keep lux levels up, yet kill blue scatter, as they call it, that can mask other colors.... I have only found one closeout pair like this, where I bought 40 pair for a dollar each. Yes, we look gay wearing them, as they are the opposite of cool. But man, great optic, everything popped outside. All these glasses were destroyed within 7 years. I might have one or two surviving pair. Driving glasses, a distant second place, are too amber, just don't do it. Yes, looking gay, and proud of it.

The violet pink, darker on top, lighter on bottom. Not very dark. It now makes sense. It was boosting light in the spectrum to which our eyes were less sensitive. But not dimming so much as to dim color perception.


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## Tachead (Mar 7, 2017)

degarb said:


> Yes, understand the limitations.
> 
> Understand, there is a technique.
> 
> ...



You are right, it is probably better then guessing. Yeah, you will not find a descent quality meter for that cheap. Even a $100 model is a low end solution. Considering your interest in CCT, CRI, and your job, it might be worth it to you to consider a professional spectrophotometer kit but, they are in the $1000+ range. Maybe your employer would be willing to cover part of the cost? 

If you are interested in a true test of identical light sources using the CCT app you are using here is one. The test was done using a Motorola Moto E vs a calibrated X-rite i1Pro spectrophotometer. The test is courtesy of Maukka.

*Flashlight *
*i1Pro**App**Astrolux A01**3960 K**4180 K**DQG Tiny AAA**5610 K**5050 K**Eagletac MX25L3C**4750 K**4520 K**Olight i3E EOS**5770 K**5260 K**Zebralight SC5FC**3640 K**3800 K*
* 
The White Balance Color Temp Meter app for Android does give an idea of the color temp but it's not terribly accurate or even consistently inaccurate. From those couple of lights it seems that it can estimate color temp better on lights with higher CRI (only about +-200 K error). I'll check some more lights tomorrow. *


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## jon_slider (Apr 18, 2017)

I recently discovered that _some_ flashoholics do not see green as well as I do

in this photo of an ET Nichia on the left, is there anyone here that cannot see that it is green?





some other flashoholilcs also do not see the green in this Jetbeam on right. Is there anyone here that can not see that the Jetbeam is green?


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## MAD777 (Apr 18, 2017)

Looks green to me. I wonder if the some coloring could come from the len's anti-reflective coating.


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## iamlucky13 (Apr 18, 2017)

jon_slider said:


> I recently discovered that _some_ flashoholics do not see green as well as I do
> 
> in this photo of an ET Nichia on the left, is there anyone here that cannot see that it is green?
> 
> some other flashoholilcs also do not see the green in this Jetbeam on right. Is there anyone here that can not see that the Jetbeam is green?



What others see on their monitor might not be a good test of what they see in real life. Computer monitor color reproduction varies almost as much as flashlight tints do. The better computer monitors are relatively consistent, just like the better LED's often are, but not perfect unless calibrated. Budget monitor color accuracy is a game of darts.

And that's assuming the camera settings were neutral, too.

I've got dual monitors at work. There's very obvious differences if I display the same photo on both monitors, and that's _after_ I spent a bunch of time adjusting the settings to make them match better. One is a halfway decent Dell. The other is a "Multisync" budget brand. Just one example of variation. I've seen plenty of monitors so bad I don't even need a side-by-side comparison to tell their colors are way off.

Now with that said, on both of my monitors, for the first picture, the beam on the left clearly appears to have a green hue to it. The beam on the right looks rosy to me, with perhaps a slight golden touch that suggests a tiny bit of extra green compared to a true neutral, but I don't perceive green outright.

The second image, the beam appears to have an even stronger green hue than left image in the first.

You said in the BLF link you have an iMac. It probably has a fairly accurate screen, so if both you and I are seeing green, odds are better than not that there's at least a hint of it in the light, but whether or not it would be noticeable in real life is hard to say based on the pictures.


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## jon_slider (Apr 18, 2017)

MAD777 said:


> Looks green to me.


thanks
and btw, are you on an Apple device? I ask because I am, just want to check if maybe the people that cant see the green are on non Apple devices.

in the photos I posted above, the green seems so obvious to me, that even the JetBeam, without another beam to compare to, is noticeably green, to me.


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## kaichu dento (Apr 18, 2017)

jon_slider said:


> I recently discovered that _some_ flashoholics do not see green as well as I do
> 
> in this photo of an ET Nichia on the left, is there anyone here that cannot see that it is green?
> 
> ...


They both go towards the green side of things to me, but the first is at least more pragmatically acceptable.

One frustrating point of contention for me was a few years back when many regarded greenish tints as warm. With the inclusion of some yellow, definitely warmer than blue, but green is not a warm tint. Yuck.


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## jon_slider (Apr 18, 2017)

kaichu dento said:


> One frustrating point of contention for me was a few years back when many regarded greenish tints as warm.


warm is exactly what the poster called that JetBeam
the poster responding that the ET is not green, says its "creamy", and that the photo is not "accurate" (for them)...

at first I though I was going crazy, now I realize I just have SuperPowers, LOL, when it comes to seeing tints, in a photo..

or maybe they mean they cant see the green in actual use (because their brain adapts when the flashlight is the only source of light)

for example, the 3000k XPL on the left is obviously yellow in this photo. But when I wake up in the middle of the night, and use that light on 0.25 lumens, I dont notice (in "actual use"), because my brain adapts to a single source and sets its "white balance" to the only light source:


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## INFRNL (Apr 19, 2017)

John was able to see initial post but I feel that it may have come off too offensive and I was in defensive mode.

We agree that we see green in the pics posted; however i have not seen green in any of my nichia's that i have or have experienced.


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## jon_slider (Apr 19, 2017)

no disrespect intended
I do believe you see what you say in your light
glad we agree you see what I see in the photo also
for me pics tell a lot, but Im learning that they dont help someone looking at a single beam much, to know the relative tint
if you posted pics for your ETs, it would help me learn more about other than green ones Ive reposted photos from


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## INFRNL (Apr 19, 2017)

jon_slider said:


> no disrespect intended
> I do believe you see what you say in your light
> glad we agree you see what I see in the photo also
> for me pics tell a lot, but Im learning that they dont help someone looking at a single beam much, to know the relative tint
> if you posted pics for your ETs, it would help me learn more about other than green ones Ive reposted photos from


I also responded in the other thread to your last post. I hope i did not come off too offensive and wasn't looking to argue or anything. You also explained your intent in your last post. I am very good at speaking before i think, so i'm sure i'll look back at this and think to myself; what was i thinking. 

unfortunately i do not have the proper equipment or know how to post beamshots. i basically just have my cell phone and i tried once but it clearly did not show what i was seeing. i also do not have that D25C anymore. i have a couple Et's with 219c that appear to be a bit whiter than the 219b, I have an HDS with 219B, some malkoff modules with 219B. Most of them appear to have slightly different shades of tint colors.

When i first started my search for new lights 2-3 months back, I relied on good quality beamshots from those of you that know what you are doing or appear to post great quality pics of them. I started buying a bunch of lights myself initially to get a real feel of the actual beam profiles of the lights i had interest in and see if I would like them for my intended use/needs. 
I started paying attention to tints and comparing the lights side by side. Then in turn would go back and see posted pics of the lights i bought or similar and could start to see the differences from pics to what I see in real life with my lights. So I have learned to take beamshots with a grain of salt. I would say the biggest differences i see would be in the whitewall shots rather than outdoor shots. Another thing i think that can play a big role is that not everyone take their pics with the same settings as others. 
If i was to go off of beamshots, it would have to be from the same person knowing they used the same settings and same environment for all the tests. but this would just to get an overall idea of what a light would provide and not to expect exact results


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## kaichu dento (Apr 19, 2017)

jon_slider said:


> warm is exactly what the poster called that JetBeam...not green, says its "creamy"...
> 
> ...I dont notice (in "actual use"), because my brain adapts to a single source and sets its "white balance" to the only light source...


Creamy, yeah, I bought a few lights with actual cream-colored tints, but all too many with greenish tints.

The main problem with lots of undesirable tints for those of us interested in threads of this nature is that while our eyes adapt to the handheld light source, we also have the issue of changing surroundings and their accompanying light sources which contrast with what we're viewing in the shadows. 

In a vacuum, on a moonless night in the woods for example, the light source we use becomes what our eyes are given to work with, and hence grow accustomed to. But when there are other light sources overlapping, as there often are in a city, or shop; next to the campfire, or wherever you happen to be, then the tint will definitely be easier to see as pleasant or annoying; functional or sub-optimal. 

I believe virtually everyone here is picky; just not necessarily for the same thing.


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## archimedes (Apr 19, 2017)

Yes, in a way very like the perception of language, the perception of tint is quite subjective and greatly affected by context ....

(and thanks @jon_slider and @INFRNL, nice save guys)


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## jon_slider (Apr 19, 2017)

thanks gentlemen
I will try to be less aggravating when I get on my soapbox(es)
I agree photos are not an exact match to what my eyes see when using a light
I do find photos with more than one beam in the shot, very informative though, relative to each other

my takeaway from the beam shots Ive experimented with, is that my brain is surprisingly similar to my phone camera, in how it responds to multiple light sources and their relative tints.
INFRNL, you have my respect, and I appreciate your contributions to help me make my point(s) without attacking your right to your own perceptions

Im just a newbie with an iPhone, and when I make a new (to me), discovery, it does seem to me like I need to announce my newfound enlightenment to the world in ways that others are not as excited about. Hopefully I will mellow with age


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## INFRNL (Apr 19, 2017)

I do not know much in this respect either, just off my personal experience.

We can agree today that even though photos may not truly be accurate, they can provide a general guideline of diffences when comparing.

However we should also keep in mind(example of your 3 light shot) if you pick one of those 3 lights for each test and compare to 2 different lights; the one kept for all tests may dramatically change colors depending on other lights its compared to.


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## kaichu dento (Apr 19, 2017)

kaichu dento said:


> ...we also have the issue of changing surroundings and their accompanying light sources which contrast with what we're viewing...when there are other light sources overlapping, as there often are...





INFRNL said:


> ...we should also keep in mind(example of your 3 light shot) if you pick one of those 3 lights for each test and compare to 2 different lights; the one kept for all tests may dramatically change colors depending on other lights its compared to.


Exactly.


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## BugoutBoys (Apr 19, 2017)

The new SF Aviator has an incredible 6000k perfect white tint, it's amazing! I've never really liked warm tint lights. The rosy tint of the Elzetta kinda grew on me but I really love the perfect white tint of the Aviator


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## INFRNL (Apr 19, 2017)

I like neutral tints and have yet to see a pure white​ light. I had a couple that i thought were close but the more i used them a blue hue started to become more apparent and i had to get rid of them.

Right now the whitest lights i have are the elzetta avs standard and flood. I'm not sure what temp they are supposed to be but i like them. The standard avs is borderline though, the hotspot at times has the slightest hint of blue but it hasn't bothered me yet.

Blue really kills it for me for whatever reason. A 6000k light i would think would have a good amount of blue, but that's great you are getting a perfect white from it.

I don't have a lot of experience with all the different lights as many of you but i would think 5000k would be pushing it for me


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## BugoutBoys (Apr 19, 2017)

INFRNL said:


> I like neutral tints and have yet to see a pure white​ light. I had a couple that i thought were close but the more i used them a blue hue started to become more apparent and i had to get rid of them.
> 
> Right now the whitest lights i have are the elzetta avs standard and flood. I'm not sure what temp they are supposed to be but i like them. The standard avs is borderline though, the hotspot at times has the slightest hint of blue but it hasn't bothered me yet.
> 
> ...



Ah I see what you mean. I do tend to like a cooler white more than warm. Blue is my favorite color  so it may be slightly on the cool side. But ever so slightly. It is gorgeous!

The AVS head has a nice rosiness. It make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside


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## INFRNL (Apr 19, 2017)

BugoutBoys said:


> Ah I see what you mean. I do tend to like a cooler white more than warm. Blue is my favorite color  so it may be slightly on the cool side. But ever so slightly. It is gorgeous!
> 
> The AVS head has a nice rosiness. It make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside


 I just went to the aviator thread to see what it was as i am not too familiar with SF. I saw your posts and can see you like blue as you chose the blue version

I saw some of the beamshots, at first I thought they looked good, then saw one that had a blue hue to it, so i wasn't sure what the true color is. sounds like it is on the cooler side which i should have known since you said 6000k. Sounds like a lot of people are really enjoying the light.

Our eyes must see differently. I do not recall any kind of rosiness from the avs heads. This could be because im on the warmer side and you are on the cooler side. So our eyes are used to different tints. I'll have to pay more attention and see if i can see as you do on the avs


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## jon_slider (Apr 20, 2017)

I hope others will experiment taking photos of beams to share. I suggest including a "known" light or LED for reference.. 3 beams seems to work best with my phone auto white balance

3 Astrolux 10180 lights w N219b (idk CRI or CCT but seems top be about 5000k):




Tint Lottery: 




above, green, purple, greener

below: 
orange yellow, neutral white, blue








left to right, 
Modified Olight i3s od w 3000k 90 CRI XPL, Stock Lumintop Worm w 4500k 90 CRI N219b, Stock Fenix E01 cool white 5mm led (can anyone tell me what Led brand, CCT and CRI?)

I EDC an N219b like the Worm, 
so using that as my standard reference point, a Fenix is noticeably blue tinted, even in use. 

Astrolux use a different tint of N219b, in my case two are greenish, and one is purple.


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## BugoutBoys (Apr 20, 2017)

INFRNL said:


> I just went to the aviator thread to see what it was as i am not too familiar with SF. I saw your posts and can see you like blue as you chose the blue version
> 
> I saw some of the beamshots, at first I thought they looked good, then saw one that had a blue hue to it, so i wasn't sure what the true color is. sounds like it is on the cooler side which i should have known since you said 6000k. Sounds like a lot of people are really enjoying the light.
> 
> Our eyes must see differently. I do not recall any kind of rosiness from the avs heads. This could be because im on the warmer side and you are on the cooler side. So our eyes are used to different tints. I'll have to pay more attention and see if i can see as you do on the avs



Ah, yes. Blue is quite wonderful 
I would say it is ever so slightly on the cool white side. But in normal usage it obviously depends on what color your eyes are adapted to at the moment. If you're around incandescent lights and shine it, it looks straight up blue. But after being outside for a while, it looks more like perfect white.

I sold the ElZetta a while ago so I can't look at it right now sadly =( But I seem to recall it was definitely warm, but ever so slightly had a pinkish to it. Like a sunset orange!


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## wolfgaze (Apr 21, 2017)

That Fenix E01 tint - my eyes! 

:green:

The 3000k Olight is interesting Jon... Can you post a beamshot of that light illuminating something (by itself)?


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## markr6 (Apr 21, 2017)

wolfgaze said:


> That Fenix E01 tint - my eyes!
> 
> :green:



Definitely. Little boy blue


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## jon_slider (Apr 21, 2017)

wolfgaze said:


> The 3000k Olight is interesting Jon... Can you post a beamshot of that light illuminating something (by itself)?



Sure, but. you will quickly learn that a single beam, photographed with an iPhone using auto white balance, is essentially meaningless, it does not inform tint, nor CCT at all:

but, I enjoy posting pics, so, thanks for asking. I include a few others, to make the tint differences more obvious

here are the lights in the following shots




















now a shot to compare the Maratac Nichia to the Worm Nichia
these lights, (illuminated by a Fenix E01):










and for good measure, these lights, (illuminated by daylight in my kitchen)
modded Olight i3s, stock Maratac w Nichia, stock Worm w Nichia, and stock Fenix E01


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## G. I. (Apr 22, 2017)

All those 4000-4500K LEDs called "neutral white" aren't really. 5500-5600K (daylight) would be. In printing and photography that's the main colour temp of the proofing lights.


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## jon_slider (Apr 22, 2017)

G. I. said:


> All those 4000-4500K LEDs called "neutral white" aren't really. 5500-5600K (daylight) would be. In printing and photography that's the main colour temp of the proofing lights.



Im guessing you are talking about a photo taken using Sunlight as the illuminant.

when talking about flashlight illumination, words like neutral can refer to either or both, tint And/Or Color Temperature

the 3000k light Ive been posting has a Yellow Tint, the 6000k? E01 has a Blue tint... the 4000k Maratac has a slight yellow tint, and Imo the 4500k Worm has a very close to Neutral _Tint_.. (neutral as in, on the BBL, not yellow green as in above the BBL, or magenta, as in below the BBL)

Im always interested in photos, show us something from your flashlight world.. certainly a photo taken under a light source of 5500k should be proofed at 5500k, but, you would not proof a photo taken under a 3000k light source with a 5500k white balance, would you?


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## G. I. (Apr 22, 2017)

jon_slider said:


> you would not proof a photo taken under a 3000k light source with a 5500k white balance, would you?



Yes I would, that's the point of colour proofing. But this is not the scope of this forum. My point was that I'd like to see *really* neutral daylight 5500-5600K LEDs – of course without bad tints in the halo and with high CRI – in flashlights, not just in studio equipment. Portable LED technology has a lot of room to improve yet.


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## twistedraven (Apr 22, 2017)

Get yourself a Jaxman E2.


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## iamlucky13 (Apr 22, 2017)

G. I. said:


> All those 4000-4500K LEDs called "neutral white" aren't really. 5500-5600K (daylight) would be. In printing and photography that's the main colour temp of the proofing lights.



Neutral is contextual. If you viewed a 5600K light at night when most of the other reference sources are 2700K, it will look very blue.

But when you're in control of the entire lighting context, as you should be for proofing photos, 5600K is arguably best, because it puts the peak roughly in the middle of the spectrum and provides similar balance in the extreme. As much as I like warm lights, I am aware of the weakness in blue rendering.

If you're interested in high CRI, neutral, daylight tone, Zebralight has a couple you should look at. I'm thinking in particular of the SC600Fd III Plus, and it's headlamp equivalent. It's a floody beam only, and 5000K, but that's very close, but there are more variants expected to come out. My personal speculation is a more throwy high CRI flashlight based on the XP-L2 will be released in the next year.

I'm considering creating a custom work light based on a 5600K, 93+ CRI Yuji chip, but that's not a chip suited for a flashlight.


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## staticx57 (Apr 23, 2017)

You can get 5700k 90CRI nichia 219b emitters and build a light around them. They are nice, I have a single and triple with them


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## jon_slider (Apr 24, 2017)

twistedraven said:


> Get yourself a Jaxman E2.


x2
tint snob approved:
Jaxman E2 measurements (Nichia 219B, bargain high CRI 18650)


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## the.Mtn.Man (Apr 24, 2017)

Photographs are pretty much useless for comparing tints because there are countless factors that make it pointless, from the kind of camera to the subject matter to the white balance to the exposure to how it looks on someone's monitor, and so on. You need to see it with your own eyes to make an accurate evaluation.


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## kaichu dento (Apr 24, 2017)

the.Mtn.Man said:


> Photographs are pretty much useless for comparing tints...


...unless you have something at least somewhat reliable to seem against, which is why greenery, and better yet, a human hand, are better than using backgrounds of unknown nature.


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## jon_slider (Apr 24, 2017)

kaichu dento said:


> a human hand


totally agree
hand photos can be extremely informative, to me

if someone wanted to know what a 3000k XPL looks like compared to a 4-4500k N219b, this photo would be informative





and if I wanted to compare hi CRI and Low CRI LEDs, this photo would also be very useful to me:
Thanks to twistedraven for these


twistedraven said:


>


in the above photo I can clearly see that the highest CRI lights produce the most realistic hand colors


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## Impossible lumens (Apr 25, 2017)

twistedraven said:


> Get yourself a Jaxman E2.



Ordered one. Thanks. I got from gearbest and I hope they don't send me the Xm-l2 version. I've had them mix things around on me before.


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## the.Mtn.Man (Apr 25, 2017)

kaichu dento said:


> ...unless you have something at least somewhat reliable to seem against, which is why greenery, and better yet, a human hand, are better than using backgrounds of unknown nature.


Subject is just one variable among many.


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## the.Mtn.Man (Apr 25, 2017)

jon_slider said:


> totally agree
> hand photos can be extremely informative, to me
> 
> if someone wanted to know what a 3000k XPL looks like compared to a 4-4500k N219b, this photo would be informative


Not really, because, at least on my monitor, it looks like the white balance is skewed in favor of the beam on the right which makes me suspect that the beam on the left is not accurately represented.


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## kaichu dento (Apr 25, 2017)

the.Mtn.Man said:


> Subject is just one variable among many.


Exactly, common knowledge, but we use all the input we can to make our choices.


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## MAD777 (Apr 25, 2017)

I posted the following in another thread, but it's appropriate here.... 

_I learned that tint is more important than lumens. My theory is that the human eye "interprets", whereas a light meter "measures". 

The better tints help the eye/brain interpret the scene, therefore we "see" more.

That's why, when you go to a Blue Man Group concert, you can't really focus on them. So, I go only to Red Man Group concerts...... _


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## LeanBurn (Apr 25, 2017)

I agree. My little ~10 ish lumens Yuji penlight is a tint and CRI powerhouse. I prefer it to 100 lumens of neutral and exponentially more to a cool or purple tint light. My eyes seem to be more calm and able to pick out more discrete details more quickly and easily than any other light I own.


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## jon_slider (Apr 25, 2017)

MAD777 said:


> _The better tints help the eye/brain interpret the scene, therefore we "see" more._



terminology
tint is not necessarily the same as color temperature (CCT)
we see more with higher CRI, not just different tints

look at the two nichias, one is much cooler than the other, yet both have better CRI than the rest of the LEDs

note that the 5700k XHP has a green tint AND low CRI, compare it to the 5700k Nichia and you will see that CCT has nothing to do with Tint, nor CRI, they are all separate variables







LeanBurn said:


> I agree. My little ~10 ish lumens Yuji penlight is a tint and CRI powerhouse.


glad you're happy. I cannot tell what tint, CRI or CCT your penlight is, and its not the lumens that make it a powerhouse 

maybe include info on what LED is in your penlight, along with its specs, and a photo showing its tint compared to a Nichia, both shining on your hand, like this:





it seems to me, this thread is supposed to be about "Tint" but actually it is also about CRI and CCT

my Tint snobbery makes me avoid green and yellow tints, I also avoid low CRI, and I avoid Cool CCT (to me 5700k borders on Cool)

Im not trying to make my flashlight look like daylight, I don't need a flashlight in daylight. My personal application of flashlighting is to produce light that is more like sunset than noon, and in the case of the 3000k XPL, its about producing low brightness similar to a candle, in a CCT similar to a candle..

point being, for low light levels, I prefer lower CCT, and for high brightness, I prefer higher CCT.. but in all cases I prefer high CRI

choice of CCT and CRI all depends on the application of the light.. But I think we all agree that green tint is not desirable, at any CCT and at any CRI..


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## iamlucky13 (Apr 25, 2017)

jon_slider said:


> But I think we all agree that green tint is not desirable, at any CCT and at any CRI..



Or do we?
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...ight-options&p=5016566&viewfull=1#post5016566

Just kidding. I couldn't resist digging that up.


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## LeanBurn (Apr 25, 2017)

My penlight is 95+CRI, 3200K.


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## scs (Apr 27, 2017)

Finally have the pleasure of seeing a Nichia 219C hi CRI. It definitely adds more depth and texture to colors, aside from the more accurate color rendition. Then again, if not placed side by side, I'd have a hard time picking an outright winner for general use between it and a nice 4000K XPL HI. The former is not mind-blowingly superior and the latter pretty damn good enough.


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## archimedes (Apr 27, 2017)

I haven't seen any N219C yet ... thanks for your thoughts on these.


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## iamlucky13 (Apr 27, 2017)

scs said:


> Finally have the pleasure of seeing a Nichia 219C hi CRI. It definitely adds more depth and texture to colors, aside from the more accurate color rendition. Then again, if not placed side by side, I'd have a hard time picking an outright winner for general use between it and a nice 4000K XPL HI. The former is not mind-blowingly superior and the latter pretty damn good enough.



I bought a Thrunite Ti5T NW recently, with an XP-L in roughly the 4000K range.

The tint varied across the width of the beam, which made the green tint fairly easy to notice even without white wall hunting or doing side-by-side comparisons. I think even if more consistent, the greenish hue would still be noticeable. I definitely prefer my high CRI lights.

It still was a useful light, and quite bright for a 1xAA, in addition to the polished titanium being very nice looking, so I was going to keep it. Unfortunately, mine had a defective switch. I returned it and am still deciding whether to get another or consider something higher CRI.

Actually, I'm tempted to buy another and try my first emitter reflow swap.


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## iamlucky13 (Apr 27, 2017)

I had a long day at work yesterday. Having lots of light didn't fit my mood.

So for kicks, when I went to take a shower before bed, I left the bathroom lights off and stood my Yuji-modded Sunwayman R01a up in the corner of the shower - it's the same emitter Leanburn has in his penlight.

The halogen-like, high-CRI warmth and sense of quiet that comes from only having 10 lumens in the room was very relaxing.

I've had these emitters for several months now, and they still mesmerize me sometimes with their cozy glow.







(images shown at 5200K, 5200K, and 4000K camera white balances respectively to better represent how I perceive them side-by-side).


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## jon_slider (May 1, 2017)

archimedes said:


> I haven't seen any N219C yet


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## archimedes (May 1, 2017)

Better maybe if I don't say that looks ... :green: (lol)


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## Zak (May 1, 2017)

More 219C beamshots. Left: 219C R9050 (CRI Ra 90+, R9 50+) in 4000K (triple with TIR optic). Top: 219C R9050 in 5000K. Right: 219B R9080 in 4500K with a tint specced as biased toward the rosy side (sw45k).


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## archimedes (May 1, 2017)

Zak said:


> More 219C beamshots. Left: 219C R9050 (CRI Ra 90+, R9 50+) in 4000K (triple with TIR optic). Top: 219C R9050 in 5000K. Right: 219B R9080 in 4500K with a tint specced as biased toward the rosy side (sw45k).



Those look much nicer ... especially that 219C - R9050 - 4000K


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## scs (May 1, 2017)

iamlucky13 said:


> I bought a Thrunite Ti5T NW recently, with an XP-L in roughly the 4000K range.
> 
> The tint varied across the width of the beam, which made the green tint fairly easy to notice even without white wall hunting or doing side-by-side comparisons. I think even if more consistent, the greenish hue would still be noticeable. I definitely prefer my high CRI lights.
> 
> ...



Yeah the domed emitters tend to have more tint shift in reflectors.
I've not had luck with NW emitters from Manker or Thrunite. Puke green from both.


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## scs (May 1, 2017)

I've stopped comparing tints side by side, because the adjustment the eyes and a camera make distorts one's perception and appearance, respectively, of the actual tint when in use by itself. For example, the 219C hi cri sample that I saw looked very pleasing by itself, but noticeably green when next to the XPL HI 4000k.

The 219C hi cri is a gateway tint. I don't think anything less will do for me from now on. I've heard good things about the YUJI hi cri emitters. Hope to see them in flashlights soon.


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## Zak (May 1, 2017)

I think the Manker LAD also has the R9050 4000K. Thing is, tint beamshots are really hard. Manually setting the white balance isn't enough (and it's all I did for mine - a claimed 6500K on my Nexus 5, but I'm sure that's inaccurate) because cameras mess with the colors in automatic post-processing. In this one, everything looks a little redder than it should. The 5000K has a hint of green in it.

Oddly, the readily-available 80 CRI 5000K 219Cs don't have this hint of green. On a white wall, they look better than the 90 CRI in the same color temperature. Illuminating most objects, on the other hand, they don't. I don't currently have one in a light, though I'm quite fond of them. I tend to like 5000K in general - it's similar to the midday sun, and the 80 CRI 219C is a very nice version of 5000K.


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## markr6 (May 2, 2017)

Zak said:


> Thing is, tint beamshots are really hard. Manually setting the white balance isn't enough (and it's all I did for mine - a claimed 6500K on my Nexus 5, but I'm sure that's inaccurate) because cameras mess with the colors in automatic post-processing.



I agree. Even when shooting raw and not making any adjustments, I find many look the same, or completely different from what my eyes see. Photos are pretty useless to me anymore, along with feedback from people that say 6500K is "pure white!" It's just never the case. They probably had no reference point, they were drinking, or just don't really have much experience with different CCT and tints. Sure, a cheap 6500K may look white without any reference or after sitting by a bonfire, but I know in my mind that it's a pretty crappy blue light in reality.


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## Zak (May 2, 2017)

I've been able to get some OK beamshots with my phone using a manual camera app, shooting in RAW and post-processing manually. I don't actually know much about photography and post-processing, but I know I can get what's on my screen to look pretty close to the light I'm shining on the wall with a bit of tweaking.

It won't necessarily look the same on *your* screen though, because my screen isn't color-calibrated, and yours probably isn't either.

Beamshots showing tint are *hard*.

The best option, I think is to read reviews with photometrics by maukka. Unfortunately, a lot of his tests are buried within threads and there isn't an index to them. I've been thinking of making an index to enthusiast tests and reviews.


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## BugoutBoys (May 3, 2017)

I think I have definitely come to appreciate warmer tints for their ease on the eyes, but I can't picture myself ever carrying a neutral or warm white as my favorite flashlight. Having perfect white just seems best. Maybe that's the cinematographer coming out of me? Trying to have a perfect "White balance?"

I also can't stand lights that have one color in the hotspot, then a different tinted corona, then different tinted spill. The SF Fury would have been even more incredible but on mine the hotspot was cool white. The corona was green, then the spill was even more cool white.
The new Aviator is wonderful because it's one single tint throughout the entire beam.


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## Zak (May 3, 2017)

I consider about 5000K a perfect white, neither yellow nor blue and close to direct sunlight at midday. I include 5000K in "neutral", though most factory neutral white tints are a little warmer. It's common to find the MT-G2 in 5000K, e.g. the Klarus G30.


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## markr6 (May 3, 2017)

Zak said:


> I consider about 5000K a perfect white, neither yellow nor blue and close to direct sunlight at midday. I include 5000K in "neutral", though most factory neutral white tints are a little warmer. It's common to find the MT-G2 in 5000K, e.g. the Klarus G30.



Yeah you can't beat 5000K as a good general white. The MT-G2 is pretty amazing in all the lights I've seen.


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## Zak (May 3, 2017)

I like the MT-G2 pretty well. Unfortunately, 90 CRI only comes in fairly warm tints and 80 CRI, while available in 5000K doesn't actually seem to be in stock to purchase anywhere. Illuminating objects with the MT-G2 and 80 CRI 319A next to each other, the difference is visible.


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## BugoutBoys (May 4, 2017)

Zak said:


> I consider about 5000K a perfect white, neither yellow nor blue and close to direct sunlight at midday. I include 5000K in "neutral", though most factory neutral white tints are a little warmer. It's common to find the MT-G2 in 5000K, e.g. the Klarus G30.


So why do lower k values usually have higher CRI? Daylight is 6500k and isn't that the best color rendering?


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## Random Dan (May 4, 2017)

BugoutBoys said:


> So why do lower k values usually have higher CRI? Daylight is 6500k and isn't that the best color rendering?


The CRI of a given light source is a metric of how well it renders colors compared to a blackbody radiator *of the same color temp*. So the CRI of a 3000k LED is measured relative to the blackbody line at 3000k, while a 6000k LED would be compared with the blackbody line at 6000k.

As to why it is easier for LED to hit higher CRI at lower CCT, that I do not know. Something to do with the phosphors.


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## BugoutBoys (May 4, 2017)

Random Dan said:


> The CRI of a given light source is a metric of how well it renders colors compared to a blackbody radiator *of the same color temp*. So the CRI of a 3000k LED is measured relative to the blackbody line at 3000k, while a 6000k LED would be compared with the blackbody line at 6000k.
> 
> As to why it is easier for LED to hit higher CRI at lower CCT, that I do not know. Something to do with the phosphors.


That was extremely informing, thank you! That made a lot of sense.


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## iamlucky13 (May 4, 2017)

BugoutBoys said:


> So why do lower k values usually have higher CRI? Daylight is 6500k and isn't that the best color rendering?



Daylight isn't quite constant. The sun itself is 5700K, but daylight tends to be cooler at higher latitudes due to atmospheric scattering. I'm not quite certain I understand right, but I think the 6500K standard is based on the average of the sunlit side, and the shadowed side (illuminated by the blue-hued sky) illumination - basically this makes it a good match for most daytime conditions.

Our eye's peak sensitivity (555nm) occurs at the same wavelength a 5270K blackbody would peak at. I suspect that's relevant in terms of optimal color rendering and neutrality, but I'm not certain. I do know that I personally find 6000K slightly on the cool side of neutral.



Random Dan said:


> As to why it is easier for LED to hit higher CRI at lower CCT, that I do not know. Something to do with the phosphors.



The overly simplified answer is you add more phosphor to increase the amount of the colors other than blue (the color of the bare LED) in order to increase CRI. Because the phosphors are non-blue, this shifts the tint away from blue - in short, the same technique used for increasing CRI lowers the color temperature.

Looking at spectral curves, it appears to me Cree uses a phosphor mix that peaks in the yellow-orange range, and they sometimes further push the spectrum towards red by filtering out excess yellow. In contrast, Nichia emitters seem to have peaks in the green and in the orange-red range. I suspect Nichia's phosphor is less efficient at lower CRI's, but gives them a little more control over CRI vs. CCT. As a result, there are high CRI, daylight tinted Nichia emitters, as Maukka confirmed in the Jaxman E2:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...urements-(Nichia-219B-bargain-high-CRI-18650) 

Yuji also makes some daylight tinted, 90+ CRI emitters, but nothing with the output we expect for flashlights. The closest product in size they offer compared to an XP emitter is only rated for about 100 lumens, and I don't think the solder pads match up with an XP footprint.


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## archimedes (May 4, 2017)

I would be quite happy with a ~ 100 lumen light ... with _fantastic_ tint and color rendering :shrug:


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## Zak (May 4, 2017)

There's a version of Nichia 219B that's typically over 95 Ra and 90 R9, but the tint is distinctly rosy. I kind of like the rosy tint indoors, but it looks a bit odd to me in outdoor environments with a lot of green vegetation.


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## staticx57 (May 4, 2017)

Zak said:


> There's a version of Nichia 219B that's typically over 95 Ra and 90 R9, but the tint is distinctly rosy. I kind of like the rosy tint indoors, but it looks a bit odd to me in outdoor environments with a lot of green vegetation.



219b sw45k R9080


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## LeanBurn (May 4, 2017)

Check this out:

ThruNite TiS NW(12L mode), Yuiji modded penlight (~8L), Yuji modded Mini-Maglite AAA clone (~8L), Mini-Maglite AAA incan (rated 9L).







The Yuji penlight has semi tired Amaloops while the AAAmag-clone and Mini MagliteAAA have alkaline cells.:mecry:


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## iamlucky13 (May 5, 2017)

archimedes said:


> I would be quite happy with a ~ 100 lumen light ... with _fantastic_ tint and color rendering :shrug:



I know, but those of us in this thread are not representative enough to sway the market, I don't think. With a suitable MCPCB, I suppose we might be able to mod, however.

Just for kicks, I took the spectral graph from one of Yuji's BC datasheets (5000K, 95 CRI typical), scaled it, and overlayed it on Cree's XP-G2 spectral graph (I suppose 75 CRI typical?). Compare the black line to the blue line - so much better through almost the whole spectrum, except in this measurement, Yuji's underlying blue LED seems to reach not quite as far into the violet range as Cree's.


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## archimedes (May 5, 2017)

_ ... Photos fixed (and removed my own off-topic tangent about this) ... _

Please carry on


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## staticx57 (May 5, 2017)

Cree has seemed to make some pretty good progress with the XPG3 and newer emitters but as far as emitters we are concerned with they are still behind the likes of Nichia and Yuji


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## kaichu dento (May 5, 2017)

iamlucky13 said:


> The overly simplified answer is you add more phosphor to increase the amount of the colors other than blue (the color of the bare LED) in order to increase CRI. Because the phosphors are non-blue, this shifts the tint away from blue - in short, the same technique used for increasing CRI lowers the color temperature.


Very good post, but I thought I'd mention that the phosphors don't boost the non-blue colors, but rather block wavelengths not cooperative in projecting light seen to be generally of a useful nature. Hence, lower output from non-cool LEDs.


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## iamlucky13 (May 5, 2017)

kaichu dento said:


> Very good post, but I thought I'd mention that the phosphors don't boost the non-blue colors, but rather block wavelengths not cooperative in projecting light seen to be generally of a useful nature. Hence, lower output from non-cool LEDs.



They actually do boost the non-blue colors, which are otherwise almost completely absent. They absorb some of the blue light, and use that energy to re-emit in a range of colors. The most commonly used phosphor re-emits a light that is strongest in the yellow range, but includes other shades, too. That's part of the reason for the big valley in the graph of the Cree spectrum - the phosphor they're using emits only very weakly there.

The output is lower in large part because the luminescence that the phosphors undergo is not perfectly efficient.

That said, if you look at the below-3700K Cree spectrum in the graph I posted, you'll notice that instead of a smooth hump, it has a bit of a tilt to the right starting at 530 nm. I think Cree must also include some filtering material in their phosphor to block a small portion of the green, as you suggested, in order to avoid having warm colors achieved by a single phosphor type look too pukey. This is a technique called notch filtering, and they've used it in some of their True White household bulbs, too.

That's as opposed to the double hump seen in Yuji and Nichia spectra, which suggests they're blending multiple types of phosphor, with peaks in the green and orangish-red ranges.


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## iamlucky13 (May 5, 2017)

staticx57 said:


> Cree has seemed to make some pretty good progress with the XPG3 and newer emitters but as far as emitters we are concerned with they are still behind the likes of Nichia and Yuji



I'd say the main difference is Cree is focusing on high output levels, and the others more on high color rendering.

The XP-L can handle nearly twice the power as the Nichia 219C, in the same size footprint.

I will be very interested to see if the high-CRI version of the XP-L2 that Zebralight is starting to use in their newest lights really does close the gap in the color rendering performance, or if it achieves a comparably high CRI rating but doesn't quite match the real world tint quality.


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## kaichu dento (May 5, 2017)

iamlucky13 said:


> They actually do boost the non-blue colors, which are otherwise almost completely absent. They absorb some of the blue light, and use that energy to re-emit in a range of colors. The most commonly used phosphor re-emits a light that is strongest in the yellow range, but includes other shades, too. That's part of the reason for the big valley in the graph of the Cree spectrum - the phosphor they're using emits only very weakly there.
> 
> The output is lower in large part because the luminescence that the phosphors undergo is not perfectly efficient.
> 
> ...


Hmmm, lots more to learn about everyday. I'd always held the oversimplified view that blocking was going on, which I suppose would have actually resulted in virtually no light being allowed to escape.

Thanks for the layman-friendly explanation!


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## archimedes (May 5, 2017)

I think I may have posted the following link somewhere else here recently, but it is a reasonable summary ...

https://www.digikey.com/en/articles/techzone/2011/aug/whiter-brighter-leds


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## Zak (May 5, 2017)

Remove the phosphor from a white LED and it's pure blue. These photos show phosphor partially scraped off to reveal the underlying blue. Shine the right shade of blue or UV on a white LED and you'll see the phosphor glow yellow or orange.


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## kaichu dento (May 6, 2017)

Zak said:


> Remove the phosphor from a white LED and it's pure blue. These photos show phosphor partially scraped off to reveal the underlying blue. Shine the right shade of blue or UV on a white LED and you'll see the phosphor glow yellow or orange.


There's an even easier way with some of the LED light bulbs that have the phosphors in the plastic lenses.


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## noboneshotdog (May 7, 2017)

Hey Gentleman, I purchased a R50pro with a 5000k XHP70 from Vinh a while ago. The hot spot is creamy white but the spill is a bit blue. Is blue spill typical of this led? What led would people prefer in this light? I am a hvac tech and use it at work indoors primarily. 

Thanks for and answer regarding the blue spill and suggesting a good indoor floody led.


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## Zak (May 8, 2017)

Tint shift from hotspot to spill is typical of most domed Cree LEDs, especially the XHP series. The MT-G2 is better about this, and could probably be made to work in an R50 Pro, but has lost popularity to the XHP70 because it makes more heat and less light. Shaving the dome often improves the beam characteristics of the XHP70, but not always. Vinh offers this on some lights and might do others by request. Replacing the lens with a flashlightlens.com UCL or a plain lens that doesn't have an anti-reflective coating might also improve the tint of the spill. Finally, there's the Nichia 144A, but in some reflectors, it also has bad tint shift across the beam.


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## noboneshotdog (May 8, 2017)

Zak said:


> Tint shift from hotspot to spill is typical of most domed Cree LEDs, especially the XHP series. The MT-G2 is better about this, and could probably be made to work in an R50 Pro, but has lost popularity to the XHP70 because it makes more heat and less light. Shaving the dome often improves the beam characteristics of the XHP70, but not always. Vinh offers this on some lights and might do others by request. Replacing the lens with a flashlightlens.com UCL or a plain lens that doesn't have an anti-reflective coating might also improve the tint of the spill. Finally, there's the Nichia 144A, but in some reflectors, it also has bad tint shift across the beam.



Wow! Thanks for the informative reply. Will have to think about this one for a bit. Maybe just buy a new light. Hahahaha.


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## Thom2022 (May 9, 2017)

I'm not a massive tint snob but I've come to like a good tint. Recently I've been experimenting with various LED's to find a good option for a build for my brother in law. The XHP50.2 80+CRI is just WOW!!!!. In daylight the hotspot is quite yellow but then spill blends seamlessly into daylight. At night it a wonderfully comfortable light to look at, very incan-esque. I was aiming it off a bridge at water 20ft below and you could see the river bed 3-5ft below the surface clear as day! Absolutely perfect detail! Well worth a punt for anyone out there who likes their lights in the warm side.


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## jon_slider (Jun 5, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

*Not All Nichias are Pink*

Im all about pink tint. 
I always prefer tint below the BBL, not above. This is true for me at all color temperatures: Warm White, Neutral White, and Cool White.

Left to right:

1. Neutral White 4000 kelvin color temperature, High CRI, with a Rose tint (below the BBL). 
My favorite tint! This is the Nichia tint I LOVE! Not necessarily my favorite CCT, that depends on ambient light. 

2. Cool White 6000k CCT, Low CRI, with a Green tint (above the BBL)
The brightest, but also lowest Red Lumen Content. This is a typical "pure white" LED (marketing spin on cool white). I find it unappealing, since I discovered Pink Nichias.

3. Neutral White 4500k, High CRI, Yellow/green tint (above the BBL)
This typical yellow/green tint makes me sad, I hate yellow/green tint (above the BBL). It is a penalty of chasing high lumens. This is a High CRI Nichia I love to hate. 





Can you spot the BBL in the pic below:?
as an example, if you follow the 4000k line, notice how a 4000k LED could be either yellow or pink tinted, and how the 6000k could be either green or violet tinted.
that is due to where the LED landed when its tint bin was measured, above or below the ideal BBL (extra credit if you can explain to a layperson, what the heck a BBL is ;-))





backstory on tint bin differences regarding N219b vs N219c, also 200 Bin vs 220 Bin


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## Bullzeyebill (Jun 5, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

Please do nor change the title of a thread when posting.

Bill


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## jon_slider (Jun 7, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



Random Dan said:


> What's your favorite light for tint quality?



I really like the 4500k N219b in my Lumintop Worm. However, I just received a modded PT-18 w N219b that I like even more, clic last pic for more info.

If you have an N219b light, I would be curious to see its beam shot side by side with your 219c Eagle and one of your Zebras

Tint is relative, and looks different under different camera settings. It is best to photograph multiple beams in a single image. That way we get relative comparisons between the beams, even if the tints are not exactly the same tint in real life. 


*More examples of Tint above and below the BBL:*

compare the N219b and N219c in the pic below

N219c tint tends to be yellow, above the BBL, look for example at the 4000k N219c in the chart, the one marked sm403 (a similar LED is in the Manker LAD)
N219b tint tends to be pink, below the BBL, look for example at the 4500k N219b in the chart, marked sw45k (a similar LED is in the Tool and Worm)


maukka said:


> '



these are my personal opinions about LEDs and what tint to expect from them, based on tint photos I have seen:
The Cree LEDs in Zebras tend to be greenish/yellow, above the BBL
The 220 Bin Nichia LEDs in Eagletacs also tend towards green tint, above the BBL
The N219c tends towards yellow tint, again above the BBL

imho:
the reason Yellow/Green Tint is so typical of high brightness LEDs, is that LEDs produce green more easily than red, plus our eyes perceive green as brighter, so if you want the brightest, you're likely to get the Greenest. Even the 219c gives up magenta in favor or green tint, in order to be brighter than the 219b.

*Another example of tint differences* 
that show up when comparing beams simultaneously while whitewall hunting in the dark. The tint is not obvious when only one beam is on at a time, the brain quickly resets its white balance to a single source, as if it was "pure" white.

L to R: 4000k N219b *200* Bin, L11c 4500k N219b *220* Bin


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## jon_slider (Jun 10, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

Chicken ala CRI







4000k 90 CRI N219 ....................................................................... 6000k 70 CRI XP-G2





90 CRI ................................................................................ 70 CRI








Um, Yum





I like High CRI and Pink Tint.


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## LeanBurn (Jun 10, 2017)

I know it's low power in comparison to the 219, but it would be interesting to see how the Yuji compares with the others in the grand scheme of things.


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## kaichu dento (Jun 11, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



jon_slider said:


> 4000k 90 CRI N219 ....................................................................... 6000k 70 CRI XP-G2
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice Jon! We definitely like the same tint range!


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## jon_slider (Jun 11, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



kaichu dento said:


> Nice Jon! We definitely like the same tint range!


Thanks for the supportive words

Im trying to be less of a snob, and have been experimenting with the Cool White during the day. It definitely looks white on my kitchen wall. The chicken was an eye opener.

Bottom line is choices are good for different ambient light scenarios. The N219b was pretty non optimal when I tried to use it during the day to work on the headlights of one of my kids cars. There are times, where looking at inorganic metal and plastic parts, that the extra brightness, from a 6000k, is more useful.

Now Im debating adding a 3000k to the selection, for late night, full dark relaxing scenarios.
Im a snob, but I try to be open minded  LOL

note that different Color Temperatures have different biological effects, some more invigorating, some more relaxing. 
enjoy your Tint!


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## Modernflame (Jun 11, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



jon_slider said:


>



I'll admit that I don't have a solid grasp of the relationship between CRI and color temperature, or even the stated values of sunlight at various times of day. It's midday in my time zone right now. Sunny, very few clouds. This would mean that the color temperature of the sunlight should be in the 6500K to 7000K range, but all of my 6500K lights are distinctly blue/purple compared to the ambient light. My 5000K emitters are a far closer match. What am I missing?


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## twistedraven (Jun 11, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

Direct sunlight (ie sun plus diffused sky-- which is just part of the sun but the diffused blue wavelengths) is ~5700k. An overcast day with just the diffused sky and no direct sunlight is closer to 7000k or higher.


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## jon_slider (Jun 11, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



Modernflame said:


> all of my 6500K lights are distinctly blue/purple compared to the ambient light. My 5000K emitters are a far closer match. What am I missing?



You are doing everything right 
all this internet photo stuff, requires a reality check
and whatever is true for you, is true for your ambient situation

Im just learning too, what I post is just my present stage of my learning process

Imo if I turn on a 6000k light, and it looks blue, then the light is cooler than my brain's white balance at that time.
similarly, if I turn on a 4000k light in the same location and it looks pink, or yellow, it suggests that is a warmer color temp than my brain white balance. Both of these together, suggest the brain is white balanced to 5000k in that setting.

At night I use 3000k incandescent. My 4000k light looks more white, at that time. The 6000k looks a bit too blue.

Im finding that a light that is about 1000k over ambient, looks white.
So during the day I find my 6000k light looks white
and at night my 4000k light looks white

what really confuses things is turning on both lights at the same time on a white wall.. then we start to realize all sorts of subtle pink and green tint differences, that normally we don't notice in actual use...

Im trying to be less of a snob, and more open minded. When someone says they like cool white, I assume they are in a cool ambient light, so it makes sense for their situation. etc

So, at my current stage of experimentation, I have a 6000k light during the day, useful for working on a car. A 4000k light in the evening, useful indoors. And a 3000k light on my bedstand, useful at very low levels, when mellowing out before bed, and also for late night bathroom runs.

choices are good. There is no one light for all situations. Also lower brightness tends to go with lower color temperature, and closer distance with wider, floodier beams. Higher brightness favors cooler temperatures and longer distance, with narrower beams. Candle color for candle brightness, sunlight color, for sunlight brightness.

8 lumens of 3000k, 36 lumens of 4000k, 60 lumens of 6000k:





a few thoughts on white balance setting. In the above photo, my iPhone has automatically set its white balance to the coolest light in the photo, the 6000k. Therefore, anything at a lower CCT, looks warmer. That could have a pink tint, or a yellow tint, or even a green tint, but still warmer.

Now look what happens when the camera sets itself to a 4000k white balance. Tint is relative to white balance.





in the above photo, all I did to change the Pink Tint to White, was to eliminate the 6000k source. 

My brain does the same thing.


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## staticx57 (Jun 11, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



Modernflame said:


> I'll admit that I don't have a solid grasp of the relationship between CRI and color temperature, or even the stated values of sunlight at various times of day. It's midday in my time zone right now. Sunny, very few clouds. This would mean that the color temperature of the sunlight should be in the 6500K to 7000K range, but all of my 6500K lights are distinctly blue/purple compared to the ambient light. My 5000K emitters are a far closer match. What am I missing?


CRI and color temperature have no direct relationship. CRI is a measure of color rendering compared to an ideal light source at a particular color temperature. You can have 100 CRI at 2700k, 100 CRI 4000k, 100 CRI 5700k, the color temperate makes no difference. 

Also of note, direct sunlight only has one color temp. When the light gets scattered by different atmospheric conditions, cloudy or extreme angles such as morning that is when color temp looks different. Next time try looking not at things being illuminated by the direct sun, but indirect light from the atmosphere and you will see it is quite blue.


----------



## vadimax (Jun 12, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



jon_slider said:


>



Very weird picture having the surface temperature of the Sun 5505°C+273=5778°K. Where did they take 7000°K from?!


----------



## tech25 (Jun 12, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

I believe the 5700 is midday with the sun overhead. The 7000 is on an overcast day with the sun behind cover, therefore more blue. There has been a nice CRI discussion in the HDS thread dealing with this subject.


----------



## Modernflame (Jun 12, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



jon_slider said:


> My brain does the same thing.



So does mine. Thanks for the input. Early on in my flashaholism, I acquired a prejudice against cool white LED's, but this thread has adjusted my perspective. My cooler lights seem more useful now.


----------



## staticx57 (Jun 12, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



Modernflame said:


> So does mine. Thanks for the input. Early on in my flashaholism, I acquired a prejudice against cool white LED's, but this thread has adjusted my perspective. My cooler lights seem more useful now.



Now go find or build a light that uses the high CRI 5700k nichia 219b. You'll enjoy cool white again but go back to hating most other cool white


----------



## Connor (Jun 12, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

For matters of accuracy: 

_The Sun closely approximates a black-body radiator. The effective temperature, defined by the total radiative power per square unit, is about *5780 K*. The color temperature of sunlight above the atmosphere is about 5900 K._

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_temperature#The_Sun


----------



## neutralwhite (Jun 12, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

There's a thread started by Daniel CEO of Yuji led about to build some real tint snob lights!.


----------



## LeanBurn (Jun 12, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



neutralwhite said:


> There's a thread started by Daniel CEO of Yuji led about to build some real tint snob lights!.



Where?


----------



## archimedes (Jun 12, 2017)

Here ...

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/434896


----------



## LeanBurn (Jun 12, 2017)

Thanks archimedes.


----------



## archimedes (Jun 12, 2017)

LeanBurn said:


> Thanks archimedes.


Sure, I am looking forward to seeing more about these new very high CRI emitters too


----------



## iamlucky13 (Jun 12, 2017)

archimedes said:


> Sure, I am looking forward to seeing more about these new very high CRI emitters too



Me too. Since Ma tumba said in his group buy thread that he was told the BC 5mm is getting discontinued, I would think the most likely replacement is some other 5mm form factor product - perhaps a 5mm version of their 98 CRI VTC series, or perhaps a higher power replacement for the current 5mm product.

After all, Nitecore apparently found a 5mm LED that can produce 45 lumens in the Tube (perhaps just the 70mA version of the Nichia GS being overdriven?). If Yuji can get in that same ballpark with a high-CRI product, it might have a lot more appeal than their current 6-8 lumen product.


----------



## jon_slider (Jun 12, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



staticx57 said:


> CRI and color temperature have no direct relationship.


true
however in off the shelf flashlights, High CRI LEDs, back in 2013 used a High CRI XPG or High CRI XPL that were just 80 CRI and came in Warm 3000k
later on, the 4500k Nichia came along with 90+ CRI
recently we have started seeing some 5000 and even 5700k 90+ CRI LEDS
but so far, 6000k LEDs still dominate the Cool Bright market, with about 65-70CRI



Modernflame said:


> Early on in my flashaholism, I acquired a prejudice against cool white LED's, but this thread has adjusted my perspective. My cooler lights seem more useful now.



I resemble that learning curve, Im only just beginning to accept that cool white has a place, not with grilled chicken, but with cars .

I also think that at different times of day, it helps to have a flashlight about 25% cooler, than the ambient light, to make it look "white" at that CCT.




vadimax said:


> Very weird picture having the surface temperature of the Sun 5505°C+273=5778°K. Where did they take 7000°K from?!


Im mostly just trying to illustrate that CCT of flashlights will look different at different ambient lighting, don't get too caught up on the exact definition of sunlight CCT., candle light CCT, Moonlight CCT, etc.. go for the general principle, that at different times of day, there are different ambient color temperatures. 

I like a rosy tint and neutral white CCT, at a neutral white time of day, and a cool CCT, at a cool white time of day.. I also like a warm tint, for relaxing before bed, the way a sunset, and the warm glow of a fire makes me feel.


----------



## Modernflame (Jun 13, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



jon_slider said:


> however in off the shelf flashlights, High CRI LEDs, back in 2013 used a High CRI XPG or High CRI XPL that were just 80 CRI and came in Warm 3000k
> later on, the 4500k Nichia came along with 90+ CRI
> recently we have started seeing some 5000 and even 5700k 90+ CRI LEDS
> but so far, 6000k LEDs still dominate the Cool Bright market, with about 65-70CRI



I'm very interested in exploring the high CRI market more fully. I think my best emitters are at about 80 CRI. I'd like to start with a Nichia 219b P60 style drop in.


----------



## jon_slider (Jun 21, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

Im a big fan of the 4000k and 4500k N219b LEDs Ive tried. 

the middle light has N219b 4000k:
I took a lot of photos to try and capture what I actually see with my eyes. these are pretty close to the relative colors I see when comparing side by side.
left to right: 3000k N219c 90+CRI, 4000k N219b 90+CRI, 6000k XP-G2 70CRI





Im interested in High CRI at several different Color Temperatures
here is an XPL 3000k on the left below:
the other two lights are the same as above, although as you can see the exposure is slightly different, its as close as I could get:
left to right: 3000k XPL 90CRI, 4000k N219b 90+CRI, 6000k XP-G2 70CRI





You can see comparing the 3000k lights on the left, in the above photos, that the N219c is more pink than the XPL which is more Yellow.

Im a big fan of Nichia, and now we also are seeing 5700k N219b and 5700k N219c. Both are great choices for the Cool White times of day. Its a good time to be a Cool white, tint, and CRI snob.

here is a pic that compares a 5700k N219c 90+CRI, to sunlight.. 
practice noticing the color differences, particularly red tones 


Hogokansatsukan said:


>


Snakesin Photo linked thread also has an interesting conversation about tint, and the use of high CRI flashlights to simulate sunlight.

We are not looking at a difference in Color Temperature. We are not looking at a difference in Tint either. The difference between the photos is almost entirely a difference in CRI.. 

Point being, as an evolving tint snob, Ive begun to realize its not Cool White that I dislike, its Low CRI. Its not warm or cool tint I dislike, its green or yellow tint. Theres tint, and then theres Tint.. depends what we mean when we say neutral.. do we mean color temperature, or Tint. Neutral color temperature is around 4500k, neutral Tint, can be at any color temperature. Therefore Pure White can be at any color temperature, as long as its Tint falls on the BBL. There is neutral Tint, pure neutral white at 4500k, also neutral Tint, pure cool white at 6000k. I think its a great thing that we can now have High CRI in Cool white. I like the option to use neutral or cool, depending on the white balance of my brain at the time of day, and environment.

candle color temperature, for candle brightness
sunset color temperature, for sunset brightness
noon color, for noon brightness

My opinion: The Nichia LEDs tend to fall closer to the BBL and tend to be less Yellow/Green, than the Cree LEDs, for any given CCT and CRI


----------



## degarb (Jun 23, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



jon_slider said:


> Im a big fan of the 4000k and 4500k N219b LEDs Ive tried.
> 
> the middle light has N219b 4000k:
> I took a lot of photos to try and capture what I actually see with my eyes. these are pretty close to the relative colors I see when comparing side by side.
> ...




Try testing on powder blues to a cool xpl hi. Also, forget how well you see colors at a given luminance, lux, lumen level. Instead, start thinking, how well do I see colors-all colors, not just red- at a given current level.

I tested a jaxman 4000k nichia, against the new imalent 4300k, and the cool 6500 xpl hi. Conclusion: brightness per watt, matters. Though the xpl hi 4300K renders reds well enough, and still a v5 bin.

Notes, and things to remember: - The imalent cool, actually renders all colors better than a 2012 era xpg, or any xml I own.
-Both warmer tints blow away the cool on reds.
-The nichia renders red, significantly better than the xpl hi 4300, who blew away the cool on reds.
-The cool xpl is better in high light conditions, better at waking a person up.
-The xpl hi renders maroons and purples better than the nichia.
-Both warmer tints butcher powder blues. The xpl is almost colorless. The nichia is not as bad, but horrid in comparison to the cool xpl on powder blues.
-Probably more dirt in tree bark, than you think. So, ignoring the greys and blues in the grass and bark, outside colors look richer.
-At at least 75 percent drive level of the xpl hi, maybe 70 percent as efficient, all 20 mm optics: the xpl hi blows away the nichia for color rendering, outside above 10 foot-cool or warm. 475 lumen jaxman cannot compete with a tighter focused, 900 lumen cool (claimed 1000) or warm xpl hi, which is probably over 800 lumens.
-Inside, to be honest, the nichia, still has a sleepytime night feeling, while the cool turns a kid room play area into outdoor daylight.
-I am as prone to ocd red obscessions as anyone. But I still think wearing two lights is best for any situation where light is key: one cool and one warm-headlamp and worn on my left wrist. Always best to cover both bases.

Maybe a higher efficient Nichia could compete. Still that pesky throw per watt in any given diameter reflector. Most single 18650 light use 20mm reflectors (I would squeeze a 26mm and xpl hi, for best runtime.) Probably, the nichia would compete better with an xpl or xml. Though, I own no xmls with quite as good of a tint as my xpls or xpl hi's.

Tints have come a long way. I think better, more interesting comparisons would be to show 2008 rebels v. lux 3 v. 2012 xml v. 2014 xml2 v 2017 xpl2 80 cri. More for fun.

I just have no patience reading light reviews that don't mention the tail cap current, among other missing data like lux readings over the hours of test. Thermal path, etc. But current reading rules, and everything else is relative.


----------



## iamlucky13 (Jun 23, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



degarb said:


> Try testing on powder blues to a cool xpl hi
> ....
> -Both warmer tints blow away the cool on reds.
> -The nichia renders red, significantly better than the xpl hi 4300, who blew away the cool on reds.
> ...



Something just clicked when reading this I should have picked up on from your previous posts.

Most of us are worried about cases where we tend to be sensitive to specific color quality issues like accurate skin tones or hiking through the woods. Ample red in the spectrum and restraint in the greens is important for this - we notice lack of red or extra green in skin tones instinctively because these are unhealthy signs.

On the other hand, you're a painter, if I remember right. You work with a different - in fact broader pallet. While most of us worry about getting good red rendering, it's just as important for you to have good blue rendering. Your powder blues are exactly where you need a healthy dose of blue in the beam.

But consider how most of our LED's work. They're a blue LED, which is good even though not a particularly deep blue. Then we take some of that blue and phosphor convert it to a range of green through red tones. The more of that conversion we do, the more blue we're taking away. High CRI lights really can diminish some of the colors you need to do your job most accurately.

It makes much more sense to me now why the cool XP-L's are working well for you, and even if you can get the brightness you want in a high CRI light, I suspect you still should stay in the 5000-6000K range, not 4000K. Or carry two lights as you say.

Unfortunately, even cool CCT LED lights are very weak at violet/purple. I first noticed the LED weakness there several years ago doing a quick photo comparison of a CFL to an LED illuminating some flowers: the purple flowers in the bunch looked duller under the LED, where as one of the phosphors in the CFL must have had a fairly strong purple emission line.

The only way I know of to get around that is violet-based LED's, which are uncommon, and have worse efficiency. Yuji has some in their VTC series, but only mid-power surface mount types. They also sell them mounted on ribbons or 11" linear PCB's, but they're expensive, and any light built using these will be something you'd want to mount on a stand, not carry in your pocket.


----------



## iamlucky13 (Jun 23, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

One more thought: I've been thinking about getting some of Yuji's ~1000 lumen COB's. They're too big for a pocket light, but based on the specs, I think they would pair well with a 700mA Buckpuck, a medium-sized heat sink, and an 18V tool battery for the electronically inclined.

These are their blue LED based line, not violet, but they're available in a 5600K version at 95 CRI that might still be an improvement over warmer tones for cases where color accuracy across the full spectrum is important.

I would only need one or two though, and Yuji only sells them in 5 packs.

I don't know when I'll get around to it since I'm pretty busy right now, and there's a rumor that Yuji is also making a new 5mm product I'd like to wait for in case it seems useful for anything. However, I might put together a small group buy if anyone is interested.


----------



## neutralwhite (Jun 23, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

Yuji group buys are great things, IM IN!.



iamlucky13 said:


> One more thought: I've been thinking about getting some of Yuji's ~1000 lumen COB's. They're too big for a pocket light, but based on the specs, I think they would pair well with a 700mA Buckpuck, a medium-sized heat sink, and an 18V tool battery for the electronically inclined.
> 
> These are their blue LED based line, not violet, but they're available in a 5600K version at 95 CRI that might still be an improvement over warmer tones for cases where color accuracy across the full spectrum is important.
> 
> ...


----------



## degarb (Jun 23, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



iamlucky13 said:


> Something just clicked when reading this I should have picked up on from your previous posts.
> 
> Most of us are worried about cases where we tend to be sensitive to specific color quality issues like accurate skin tones or hiking through the woods. Ample red in the spectrum and restraint in the greens is important for this - we notice lack of red or extra green in skin tones instinctively because these are unhealthy signs.
> 
> ...



Examining the diffraction grating, the violet does appear missing. Maybe, I am wrong, but that shade of color seems missing from the paint pallet of about 6 companies. I grabbed 150 close shades in all families, overlapped the close swatches in progressive order glued onto one cardboard page for exam under various lights. The closer, the better. Seeing the difference is the test. Anyway, fortunately, there was a hole, I believe, in violet-no such colors in the 6 pallets I looked at. I have other decks that I didn't search, but not for cut up.


----------



## jon_slider (Jun 23, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

Im really enjoying the details being discussed. I keep hoping they will include pictures!

I agree it is good to have a selection of lights at different Color Temperatures. And also that LEDs are not full spectrum. Some have more red, some have more blue, and neither has everything sunlight has. 






Im interested in selecting 3 LEDs closest to, or below, the BBL
the sm303, sw45, and sm573 LEDs in this image by maukka interest me in particular:


maukka said:


>



the most used or carried of my current accumulation atm are:

In my bag: NoonSun/Bonfire, 
18650 powered triple XP-G2 6000k 70CRI, 
up to 1300 lumens of Cool White, used most above 100 lumens, and during the day. It looks white at that time, it looks blueish at night. 
I would like to upgrade to 5700k 90+CRI


In my pocket: Sunset/Campfire, 
18350 powered Triple N219B 4000k 90CRI, 
used indoors in the evening mostly, at 25-50 lumens. It looks white at that time, it looks pink during the day. 
Im very happy with this LED, I have spent the most time with it, and for a while I thought it could be the Only One.. LOL. I lied, to myself ;-)


On my nightstand: Moonlight/Candlelight. 
AAA powered XPL 3000k 90CRI, 
used at 0.25 lumens mostly. I can’t tell how yellow it is in the dark, and at that low brightness. During the day it is very yellow. 
I like the wide hotspot of the XPL for close range. But I find the CREE XPL tint excessively yellow and prefer the NICHIA 219c sm 303 because it has a richer orange color.


Low CRI Cool LEDs do fine with blue and green, but they don't make food look as appetizing as High CRI Neutral LEDs. I would prioritize CRI over Cool, but prefer to have both 

btw, my cat Loves Sardines. He does not care what CRI or CCT light I shine on them. 
I think he is either color blind, or prioritizes his nose over his eyes 

Low CRI, lots of blue green, not much red:






High CRI, more red, more tasty?


----------



## degarb (Jun 24, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

To fill in my collection, I need to get a high cri 5700 too. I had to look around to find a good single 18650 Nichia, Jackman. I am not holding my breath for a Yuji. If I make my own, I will choose the 80 cri xpl2 v6, DigiKey, most likely. One person had a link to some Cree 90 cri Xp-l or xml. Though, I suspect the Cree research money is going to the Xp-l. 

So, does anyone have a good list of Nichia based lights, the rough specs, the price? List bare emitter source too?


----------



## degarb (Jun 24, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



iamlucky13 said:


> One more thought: I've been thinking about getting some of Yuji's ~1000 lumen COB's. They're too big for a pocket light, but based on the specs, I think they would pair well with a 700mA Buckpuck, a medium-sized heat sink, and an 18V tool battery for the electronically inclined.
> 
> These are their blue LED based line, not violet, but they're available in a 5600K version at 95 CRI that might still be an improvement over warmer tones for cases where color accuracy across the full spectrum is important.
> 
> ...




Keep me posted on how this project progresses. PM me. 

I love my infinitely dimmable buck puck 700s. Probably have 3 or so ready for next wristlights or headlamp build. They rock on 2x18650. I love fact that they are 90% efficient, minimum runtime is 8.5 hours, with a measured 374 lumens, yet my dimmer allows a slight unnoticed step-down for 10 hours or slightly down for 12 or really long. The choice is mine. 

Ledsupply has another new buck driver with a variable sense resistor at 95% efficiency. But looks like a higher cutoff so haven't tried it. 

Use only protected cells, and install a switch, to avoid reverse polarization. MM cells. 

The only downside of series is I have not a safe plan for charging them in the light.


----------



## jon_slider (Jun 24, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



degarb said:


> So, does anyone have a good list of Nichia based lights


18650: power maukka reviewed the Jaxman E2, it has pwm, but a very nice 5700k LED
CR123 powered: HDS puts some nichias in their lights, 4000k 5000k, and even 5700k
AAA powered: Lumintop Tool, Maratac, offer 4000k nichias
Eagletac and Malkoff offer nichias also. I have issues with their PWM, as well as HDS, but not everyone cares.

illumn sells a very nice pink 4000k Nichia, that a friend put into a PT18 (NoPWM) for me. I LOVE the tint!
I recently tried a 3000k N219c sm303 that a friend modded into a light for me.. I love that LED too!

I have no personal modding experience, LED sources I'm not too strong on.. gunga is very savvy in that area, maybe PM him.. He does excellent work.


----------



## noboneshotdog (Jun 24, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

I purchased the Jaxman E2 recently just to see what Nichia 5700 high CRI was all about. 

To be 100% honest the 5700 is just a bit to cool color temp for me. I guess I enjoy warmer temps these days. 

I would not classify this as necessary c/w, just cooler than what appeals to me anymore. 

This was my first Nichia purchase. Wonder what cheap Nichia light I can buy next? Want to purchase some cheapies before taking the plunge and committing to a HDS or something similar and not loving the tint.


----------



## staticx57 (Jun 24, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

Reylight Pineapple


----------



## maukka (Jun 24, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



noboneshotdog said:


> This was my first Nichia purchase. Wonder what cheap Nichia light I can buy next? Want to purchase some cheapies before taking the plunge and committing to a HDS or something similar and not loving the tint.



Some cheap ones:
Astrolux A01, S41
Lumintop IYP365, Tool, Worm
Manker E21
BLF-348


----------



## noboneshotdog (Jun 24, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



maukka said:


> Some cheap ones:
> Astrolux A01, S41
> Lumintop IYP365, Tool, Worm
> Manker E21
> BLF-348



Thanks gentlemen. Is there a favorite light/tint emphasis on tint of the suggested lights?


----------



## jon_slider (Jun 24, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



noboneshotdog said:


> Thanks gentlemen. Is there a favorite light/tint emphasis on tint of the suggested lights?


they each have different lumen levels, some have PWM, some do not
I put the Lumintop Tool w Nichia at the top of the list
it comes in Titanium, Copper, and Aluminum
the aluminum Tool w Nichia is on sale This is a tail switch Clickie light. I am not affiliated in any way, just telling you the best deal I would make if I did not have some already.

personally, I carry what for me, is the cream of the crop, a copper Maratac AAA w Nichia. It is a twisty light.

both have the same 3 modes, MLH sequence, 25/3/80 lumens, with 4000k Nichia 219b 90+CRI, no PWM, NoCircuitNoise, regulated output in the Maratac, but not the Tool, 4000k is Slightly warm, not really great in the sun, but really good indoors in the evening. 

5700k would be for working on cars, I would use 4000k indoors still.

I don't have a black anodized tool but for size, here are the two lights Im suggesting


----------



## noboneshotdog (Jun 24, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

^^^^
Awesome. Thanks Mr. Slider. :thumbsup:


----------



## jon_slider (Jun 24, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

welcome 
honorable mentions of lights for Entry Level Tint Snob include Nitecore Tip, and Manker Lad, both w Nichia 219c, USB, 4000k, nopwm...
heres my LAD




pic is a link to more of my Lad impressions, if you're bored
meanwhile here is the beam of the Lad w Nichia 219c on left, Maratac Nichia 219b in middle. Both 4000k..
both are good, choice of a single button w USB, or twisty interface w Eneloop AAA




I prefer the rosy tint of the middle N219b, over the yellow tint of the Lad N219c, far right is Astrolux M03 whose tint I disprefer, it is unreliable and flickers. The middle light Maratac, is in my pocket


----------



## noboneshotdog (Jun 24, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

^^^
Maratac looks nice. Love that rosy tint!


----------



## jon_slider (Jun 24, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



noboneshotdog said:


> rosy tint!


me too
disclaimer, rosyness varies, 
here is an approximate example of where the Lad and Maratac might approximately test out to, if maukka had an actual sample. this is just my guess labels, added to his real science work, but it demonstrates how a 219b lands below the BBL, in the pink, and the 219c lands above the BBL, in the yellow. BBL = neutral tint at that color temperature.. CRI is a separate topic, but it happens all the LEDs are the cream of the new crop in Nichia high CRI offerings.. Note the Maratac is actually 4000k, like the Lad, but still slightly in the pink below the BBL....imho


----------



## noboneshotdog (Jun 25, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

Thanks Jon. Is there a headlamp WITH magnetic tailcap with similar color temp as the Maratac?

I currently have the Armytek Wizard, warm xpl which has a bit of a rosy hue that I am enjoying.

Edit: preferably 18650.


----------



## khaleeq (Jun 28, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

I first purchased Lumintop copper worm in nichia. Then I bought Tool AAA aluminum CRI, believing it would have the same pleasant tint as the worm, but was rather disappointed. I feel there is less yellow in it. When compared side by side, the aluminum one looks slightly greenish, or maybe I am seeing things.


----------



## jon_slider (Jun 29, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



khaleeq said:


> I first purchased Lumintop copper worm in nichia. Then I bought Tool AAA aluminum CRI, believing it would have the same pleasant tint as the worm, but was rather disappointed. I feel there is less yellow in it. When compared side by side, the aluminum one looks slightly greenish, or maybe I am seeing things.



does your Aluminum Tool look like the 4500k N219, or the 6000k XP-G2 in this pic? (lights are off, this is just the reflection of the LED)


----------



## khaleeq (Jun 29, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

It is the newer nichia 219b version bought from banggood. It is like the one in the center



jon_slider said:


> does your Aluminum Tool look like the 4500k N219, or the 6000k XP-G2 in this pic? (lights are off, this is just the reflection of the LED)


----------



## jon_slider (Jun 29, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



khaleeq said:


> It is the newer nichia 219b version bought from banggood. It is like the one in the center



LED tint does change with different batches and each LED can be slightly different even from the same batch.
so, sounds like you like the Worm LED better than the Tool LED..
I invite you to post a side by side photo if you want. It does sound like you qualify for membership in the Tint Snob Club, welcome!
Comparing LEDs side by side can be enlightening, or disappointing, depending on our expectations, and the time of day when we use our lights (because our brain changes white balance).


----------



## Nichia! (Jun 29, 2017)

I like nichia 219b tint from 4000k~4500k..


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## Nichia! (Jun 29, 2017)

Couple of days ago I noticed something strange on one of my Astrolux A01 
I have more than 10 of them some are New banggood version with PWM and the rest are the original Manker driver No PWM, one of Manker lights are different from all the rest, it has very beautiful tint (pinkish)! The rest of Manker lights are very yellow (don't like)
The banggood ones is cooler than all the rest

Not sure what the Cause of that but I am very happy with the special one I wish all the other ones are the same as this one..

I found my self like the tint on my d25c 2016 model nichia 219b 4500k (egaletac claims) more than others and like tint on the tool also..


----------



## Nichia! (Jun 29, 2017)

Another thing to mention here 

I bought 2 aluminum tools from Amazon with nichia LEDs months ago, I have noticed that they are Warmer than the tool copper/ti and more pink than the Traditional copper/ti ones


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## jon_slider (Jun 29, 2017)

Here is an example of 3 different N219b
L to R: Reylight head 4500k N219b 200bin, L11c 4500k N219b 220bin, Worm head 4500k N219b 200bin









fwiw, the Worm and ReyLight Tool used 4500K LEDs at the time. Some tested at about 4300k actual (normal variation of 5%). Later versions of the Copper Tool, and the current Maratac w Nichia, are using a 4000k N219b, it is slightly yellower, less pink.

in this pic the 4000k 200bin N219b Maratac is second from left, and the worm 4500k 200bin N219b is second from right
notice the Maratac is slightly yellower




far left is 4500k N219b 200bin, far right is L11c w N219b 220bin
you can see the 220bin N219b is greener than the 200bin N219b examples
these are the lights in the above photo:





here is a better example of the difference between the far left and far right N219b lights




one more to emphasize the pink vs green difference between two 4500k N219b Nichias.





don't worry too much about white wall comparisons. If you only use one light at a time, your brain will quickly adapt to make it seem white.

yeah, I like to have my cake and eat it too, when possible.. and for me, Pink is Nirvana.. 
otoh, if Im camping and only have the 220bin Nichia, I will still use and enjoy its High CRI, generally more than a low CRI Cool White LED..

Try to be an open minded, flexible, Tint Snob, if you can.. LOL


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## Modernflame (Jul 1, 2017)

jon_slider said:


> Try to be an open minded, flexible, Tint Snob, if you can.. LOL



Oooooo, copper. Sorry, easily distracted.

And yes, that's good advice on open mindedness. I'm learning, but it's a work in progress. It's a struggle not to yell and point exasperatedly at the television every time I see a TV cop inspecting a crime scene with a low cri, blue shifted, cool white LED flashlight. Still working on torchaholic outbursts.


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## khaleeq (Jul 1, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

Dear jon_slider, thanks for your kind words. If only I knew how to put a photo here. I think I need to revisit the new member Instructions section. I have so far posted around 25 times only on the forum, so maybe it has something to do with my not being able to place a photo here. I have always liked some areas of your interest, like love for no-pwm lights, love for neutral or warmer tints, lights with flat regulation.



jon_slider said:


> LED tint does change with different batches and each LED can be slightly different even from the same batch.
> so, sounds like you like the Worm LED better than the Tool LED..
> I invite you to post a side by side photo if you want. It does sound like you qualify for membership in the Tint Snob Club, welcome!
> Comparing LEDs side by side can be enlightening, or disappointing, depending on our expectations, and the time of day when we use our lights (because our brain changes white balance).


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## jon_slider (Jul 1, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



Modernflame said:


> Oooooo, copper. Sorry, easily distracted.
> ..
> Still working on torchaholic outbursts.


me too, me too 



khaleeq said:


> If only I knew how to put a photo here..


1. put the photo on Flickr.com or wherever you keep photos online
2. copy the image address:





3. In this forum, use the icon above the red star to open the dialog box into which you paste the image address you copied from your photo site.






I am becoming a more flexible tint snob. I really like the N219c in this pic. The XPL is considerably more yellow, not my preference, but I use it anyway . I also REALLY like the pink Nichias, but, I don't use them at a time of day when they look pink. I hate the 6000k indoors at night, but it is superior during the day, when my brain is used to sunlight.


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## markr6 (Jul 13, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

This isn't a response to anything there, but I figured it would be the perfect place instead of making a new thread. Just a thought...

The old “*white wall*” test and people making excuses for bad beams or tints…not valid!

_I get it…we ALL use our lights in real life._ Although some may think so after visiting CPF, we don’t all sit around and shoot white walls 100% of the time. Some do a lot more than others, but it’s a simple way to analyze a light. I think that’s only prudent after spending $50, $100 or $500 on something that others would get by with just fine at $8.

- Do people in [insert any nice car] forums drop $50,000 on a car, and then say “I don’t notice it in real life” if the car makes a loud whistling or clicking sound outside (say, a loose panel). No. They’ll have a 32 page thread over-analyzing every aspect of the most seemingly insignificant, superficial things. And they should.

- Do photography enthusiasts spend $4000 on a camera and $1500 on a lens and say “I don’t notice the distortion. I don’t shoot brick walls all day long”. No, they actually do the same thing we do.

- Why use USB 3.0 when USB 2.0 works just fine? I can just go make a cup of coffee and do something else while I transfer files at half the speed. Doesn’t work like that.

When you pay for performance, you want to make sure you’re getting what you paid for…and more. If an amazing tint exists in one light, but not in a similar spec'd light, it just bothers me since I know it IS possible. To buy a flashlight with a "pretty good" or so-so tint, even if its fine outdoors, isn’t something I’ll defend.


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## iamlucky13 (Jul 13, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

I agree Mark. White wall hunting is a basic check that lets you see the light in a semi-controlled environment. It can provide a useful understanding of the nature of a light's output, which depending on how you use it, could help you understand what you're seeing in a non-white wall situation. If you're checking on your child at night, for example, and it strikes you that their skin looks a bit green, knowing if your light has a green hue to it may allay the concern the child might be ill.

I will conditionally make excuses for lights not being perfect, however. I don't generally expect my $20-30 lights to be free from beam artifacts and tint shifts. Higher price lights also often aren't if they're making compromises to maximize output, keep a high end body material like copper or titanium reasonably priced, etc.

It's always a process of weighing what's important to you versus what is actually on the market.


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## jon_slider (Jul 13, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

mark6, your mailbox is full, I tried to PM you.. PM me when you are ready and I will send the message


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## kaichu dento (Jul 14, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



iamlucky13 said:


> White wall hunting is a basic check that lets you see the light in a semi-controlled environment. It can provide a useful understanding of the nature of a light's output, which depending on how you use it, could help you understand what you're seeing in a non-white wall situation. If you're checking on your child at night, for example, and it strikes you that their skin looks a bit green, knowing if your light has a green hue to it may allay the concern the child might be ill.


Nice post from one who actually understands the nature of the concept. 

It's really become an old guys tale to actually think that there are people that do nothing other than stare at white walls with their flashlights.


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## Modernflame (Jul 15, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



iamlucky13 said:


> I agree Mark. White wall hunting is a basic check that lets you see the light in a semi-controlled environment. It can provide a useful understanding of the nature of a light's output, which depending on how you use it, could help you understand what you're seeing in a non-white wall situation. If you're checking on your child at night, for example, and it strikes you that their skin looks a bit green, knowing if your light has a green hue to it may allay the concern the child might be ill.
> 
> I will conditionally make excuses for lights not being perfect, however. I don't generally expect my $20-30 lights to be free from beam artifacts and tint shifts. Higher price lights also often aren't if they're making compromises to maximize output, keep a high end body material like copper or titanium reasonably priced, etc.
> 
> It's always a process of weighing what's important to you versus what is actually on the market.



Agreed. Well put. I've long since given up trying to explain the concept to non-torchoholics. I would only add that outdoor testing is equally important. It's the reason why we scour the forum for a variety of beam shots before purchasing a light.


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## snowlover91 (Jul 17, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



markr6 said:


> This isn't a response to anything there, but I figured it would be the perfect place instead of making a new thread. Just a thought...
> 
> The old “*white wall*” test and people making excuses for bad beams or tints…not valid!
> 
> When you pay for performance, you want to make sure you’re getting what you paid for…and more. If an amazing tint exists in one light, but not in a similar spec'd light, it just bothers me since I know it IS possible. To buy a flashlight with a "pretty good" or so-so tint, even if its fine outdoors, isn’t something I’ll defend.



I would have to disagree a little bit with the “white wall” test aides mentioned. It’s a great way to get a general idea of tint, but it can also be quite deceptive or misleading too. A person’s eyes, perception and sensitivity to different colors/tints, the ambient light in the room, the shade of “white” on the wall, etc are all variables to consider. A warmer light may tend to cast a more yellow/golden tint that might be pleasing to some while offputting to others. I personally find 4000k preferable to 5000k now, as that seems too “cool” for me. Some might find 4000k too “warm” or yellow for them and prefer the 4500-5000k range. A light that performs great on a white wall test may also perform worse outdoors on green and brown colors. I have experienced this first hand in using my better “white wall” lights vs my warmer ones. My warmest one is a 4000k ZL with 93-95cri and it does better outdoors with wood grain and green grass/leaves than my Nichia does. The Nichia is a better white wall light, but my real world use is primarily outdoors and that’s where I want the best performance. 

There are so many factors involved that, imo, the white wall test is just one method of determining what works best for someone. For me, the best test is using it outdoors and seeing which lights render colors the best. A white wall test is useless when out in the woods... and other factors like runtime, how well trail markers are discerned, etc are far more important.


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## kaichu dento (Jul 17, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



snowlover91 said:


> ...the white wall test is just one method of determining what works best for someone. For me, the best test is using it outdoors and seeing which lights render colors the best. A white wall test is useless when out in the woods... and other factors like runtime, how well trail markers are discerned, etc are far more important.


You're overthinking it, yet nailed it exactly in the first line I quoted here, in your own post.

It has always been simply one of the tools in the box for assessing a light. It's really the people that make fun of the whole subject of white walls who totally miss the fact that no one is testing lights. They're simply assessing the lights characteristics, and a wall is a great way to see if there are noticeable artifacts and color zoning, then it's on to other backgrounds, outdoors, etc.


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## snowlover91 (Jul 17, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



kaichu dento said:


> You're overthinking it, yet nailed it exactly in the first line I quoted here, in your own post.
> 
> It has always been simply one of the tools in the box for assessing a light. It's really the people that make fun of the whole subject of white walls who totally miss the fact that no one is testing lights. They're simply assessing the lights characteristics, and a wall is a great way to see if there are noticeable artifacts and color zoning, then it's on to other backgrounds, outdoors, etc.



The problem is that not everyone sees it the way you mentioned. If it doesn’t pass a white wall test then there are some who won’t test out or examine it in other ways.


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## kaichu dento (Jul 17, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



snowlover91 said:


> The problem is that not everyone sees it the way you mentioned. If it doesn’t pass a white wall test then there are some who won’t test out or examine it in other ways.


Sure, there will always be those who over-value a singular approach to determining whether a given light is worth further consideration but talking in generality of 'white wall hunting', it has always been used as a terminology to demean other CPF'ers in order to appear to be the more evolved flashaholic. 

I highly doubt that a poll asking if anyone used a white wall as a sole test of a lights usefulness to them would get even a single positive vote. Over-hyped talking point that can't be put away soon enough.


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## jon_slider (Jul 17, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

fwiw, I don't need High CRI to see green plants well
I do need High CRI to see the palm of my hand, the cooking of my food at camp, the skin tone of my lover, and other things that contain red, with realistic color.

in fact, I will admit that after being a 4-4500k snob for a while, I have a new appreciation for cool white. It is actually Better at showing green plants than High CRI. Cool white is also better for working on a car during the day, and it is brighter than my High CRI option. 

My conclusion is to have Both.

I do find white wall tests very informing when comparing beams side by side, and I agree that the people that say things like "I don't notice in actual use" are just missing the point, changing the subject, and also at times, ridiculing someone who cares.

Recently I posted a number of tests of a V11R, which has very wide brightness fluctuations on a Light Meter. People without a light meter can NOT see changes of 60 lumens easily. Does that mean it does not matter to me, no. Does it mean it may not matter to them, sure. Do I care if my battery drains faster because my light turned itself up by 60 lumens, yes.

There is no One PURE White. That is a misconception. In fact, there is White at 6000k, and White at 4000k, and at every other CCT, depending on the white balance of ones brain.

If I have been outdoors in the sun, 6000k seems white, but if I have been indoors in the evening under incandescent, 4000k looks white. Here is an illustration of that concept:

When the white balance is set to the 6000k cool white led on the right, it looks white. Notice the pink 4000k N219b in the. middle, in the next photo it will be white






now white balance is set to 4000k, so the pink Nichia looks white





(I removed the 6000k so my auto white balance iPhone would choose the 4000k for white balance.) Notice the very same light that looks pink during 6000k white balance, looks white during 4000k white balance. People who prefer 4000k, are most definitely NOT using it to work on a car in the sunlight. And people who prefer 6000k, are certainly not using it as a night light, for which 3000k is far superior, even better than 4000k.

Ive spent a lot of time demonstrating things that some people claim do not matter to them, PWM, circuit noise, brightness flux, green tint, pink tint, blue tint, warm, neutral, cool, etc. It is often the people who want to change the conversation, that will bring up comments like, "I don't notice in actual use". 

I also "don't notice in actual use" the green tint in a Cool White light used to work on a car in the sun. There is plenty of ambient CRI to offset the pathetic CRI of a Cool White LED. But after dark, I again become a High CRI Neutral White Tint snob, I put away the Cool White, and put a High CRI 4-4500k light in my pocket.

then again, If Im trying to spot a bear at 100 yards, Cool White rules, because of the brightness. But if Im inspecting Bear Scat at close range, and want to know if its been eating any berries with red seeds, then High CRI, which will usually Not be in the Cool White Color Temperature range, will be my preference.

Do whatever makes you happy. Buy lots of different lights, use the ones that work best for you at the time. There is no one single color temperature, tint, and CRI that works equally well as a nightlight, scat reader, spotlight, or mechanics light. Some situations call for high brightness, and CRI is secondary, some situations call for low brightness, and CRI becomes more important. Some applications call for Cool, Warm, or Neutral White. Each has their place.

A white wall will help demonstrate the differences.

Here is a photo comparing two 3000k LEDs (far left top and bottom), one has a Magenta tint, one has a Yellow tint. I prefer the magenta, but, if Im only using the Yellow one at the time, my brain will adjust itself to make that OK.






At my current stage of learning I like a choice of 3 different color temperatures, depending on time of use. 

Pure White Tint is NOT a specific CCT, it is simply any LED that lands on the BBL.. I wish they called it the White Body Line, so people would understand that Whiteness is an absence of green or magenta tint. It is any CCT that lands on the ideal radiator line, shown as a black line in this pic:





some LEDs land above the "Pure White (black line) Radiator line". Typically they are Cool White Cree LEDs, optimized for brightness. Our eyes are especially sensitive to green, so an LED with a lot of green will seem brighter. Its CRI may not be ideal, but it will spot bear at 50 yards, better than a 4000k Nichia.

Courses for horses.


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## snowlover91 (Jul 17, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



kaichu dento said:


> Sure, there will always be those who over-value a singular approach to determining whether a given light is worth further consideration but talking in generality of 'white wall hunting', it has always been used as a terminology to demean other CPF'ers in order to appear to be the more evolved flashaholic.
> 
> I highly doubt that a poll asking if anyone used a white wall as a sole test of a lights usefulness to them would get even a single positive vote. Over-hyped talking point that can't be put away soon enough.



Still, the point remains as I originally stated, that white wall hunting is only one out of many considerations when evaluating tint and usefulness of a new light. Furthermore, I’ve read many posts over the years from CPF posters who simply shine a light on a wall and perform no further testing. It’s not meant to demean other posters but simply highlight the fact that white wall hunting is a small part of evaluation. 

A poll phrased that way would be meaningless. A better poll would be one asking if a person would return a light that exhibited beam artifacts or a tint issues on a white wall, and no other testing done.


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## ven (Jul 17, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

Jon, pretty much bang on with my uses and thoughts. I have not evolved into 3000k as of yet, still a little too cosy/warm for me generally. But 4000-6000k covers most applications, 5000k being bang in the middle seems to cover all well. Granted not best at every time of day, but good enough for me if makes sense( i could live with 5000k only) . In the last year or so, my taste has gone warmer, 4000k i really enjoy, usually more in the evening. Daytime 5000k is spot on, also works well in artificial light(think factory). I will still swap things about in work, so 4000-5000k gets used daily. Todays flavour was 219b 4500k, in mule and triple and optic form. 

I certainly agree on how we see different ct/tints and how our eyes get "contaminated" by other ct's. Last night i used my sportac xp-g2 which is a cool white. Yet it did not look as cool as last time I used it , and presume the prior use of the xp-l2 easy white made it so. 

If i shine the xp-l2 easy white next to a 219c 4000k(yellow side), the 219c 4000k almost looks white due to the more yellow in the xp-l2 EW. Yet shining the 219c 4000k next to a 4500k 219b, the 219c looks yellow. .............not easy to put into words! But tint is exaggerated by the other tints and changes the way my eyes see's them. 

Of course i enjoy said lights the best used on their own, no mixing etc as my eyes adapt quick. Just out of curiosity i wanted to see the changes in front of me.

The above comments come from an unscientific experiment by unscientific eyes


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## jon_slider (Jul 17, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



snowlover91 said:


> A better poll would be one asking if a person would return a light that exhibited beam artifacts or a tint issues on a white wall, and no other testing done.


A white wall test is a way to Illustrate an observation that a user makes in actual use. IF they are bothered by tint and beam issues, the white wall test spares us all from reading tons of text, describing the user experience, and quantifies the issue so it can be communicated easily.

Nobody JUST shines their light on a wall and then decides to return the light. Shining on a wall is a way to Explain Why they are returning the light. There will still be people who settle for what they got, and won't take the time to return it.

What I see as folly, is to return a light for replacement with another light that will still use the same LED, and will still have the same tint. If the Green Tint of an LED bothers someone, Change LEDs. Don't just swap for another one that has the same tint binning, and the same tendency to land above the "White" (why do they call it black?) Body Line.

It sounds like you think white wall tests are somehow not valid. I disagree, photos of white wall tests, Add information in a way that is easily communicated to people that are not in the same room . There are many people who have not found a way to get a decent photo to show what they see. That does not mean all photos are invalid. 

There are many tools to evaluate the color of an LED, and a white wall comparison is one of them. If I had a spectrometer like maukka, that would be even better, which is why I Love his tests. He does not need a white wall, his instrument is even more detailed and sophisticated. Otoh, a white wall comparison (of more than one beam at a time) is definitely Very informing, to me. OTOH, I consider single beam photos, relatively useless, as they are subject to different white balance adjustments, than other photos. I Have To see more than one beam in a photo at the same time, so I can begin to make a useful comparison, and interpretation, of what the image captures.



ven said:


> If i shine the xp-l2 easy white next to a 219c 4000k(yellow side), the 219c 4000k almost looks white due to the more yellow in the xp-l2 EW. Yet shining the 219c 4000k next to a 4500k 219b, the 219c looks yellow. .............not easy to put into words! But tint is exaggerated by the other tints and changes the way my eyes see's them.




well put and I agree
if you look at the spectrograph I posted, you will see that maukka confirms that a 4000k 219c has tint above the "White" Body Line, in the Yellow Tint zone. I agree this yellow tint will get "filtered out", and our brain will "whiten" it IF there is no other reference light for my brain to integrate.

It IS very surprising how wide a tint tolerance I have, when only using one light.

brightness is another important variable. I Love 3000k at under 10 lumens in full dark, but I would never try to get 500 lumens from a 3000k source, for that I will, like you, prefer something closer too 5000k..

bright and cool
dim and warm

candle color for candle brightness
sun color for sun brightness

and I agree that 5000k High CRI is a very nice option to span a range of needs. slightly too cool in some cases, slightly too warm in others, but a very good general use CCT..

Choice of CCT is really dependent on the CCT adaptation of the brain seeing it.


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## 18650 (Jul 17, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



snowlover91 said:


> I would have to disagree a little bit with the “white wall” test aides mentioned. It’s a great way to get a general idea of tint, but it can also be quite deceptive or misleading too. A person’s eyes, perception and sensitivity to different colors/tints, the ambient light in the room, the shade of “white” on the wall, etc are all variables to consider. A warmer light may tend to cast a more yellow/golden tint that might be pleasing to some while offputting to others. I personally find 4000k preferable to 5000k now, as that seems too “cool” for me. Some might find 4000k too “warm” or yellow for them and prefer the 4500-5000k range. A light that performs great on a white wall test may also perform worse outdoors on green and brown colors. I have experienced this first hand in using my better “white wall” lights vs my warmer ones. My warmest one is a 4000k ZL with 93-95cri and it does better outdoors with wood grain and green grass/leaves than my Nichia does. The Nichia is a better white wall light, but my real world use is primarily outdoors and that’s where I want the best performance. There are so many factors involved that, imo, the white wall test is just one method of determining what works best for someone. For me, the best test is using it outdoors and seeing which lights render colors the best. A white wall test is useless when out in the woods... and other factors like runtime, how well trail markers are discerned, etc are far more important.


 Performs "better" outdoors in what sense? It could just as easily be imbalanced spectral output leading to oversaturated colors in some parts of the spectrum. That's a personal preference for some.


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## snowlover91 (Jul 17, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



jon_slider said:


> *A white wall test is a way to Illustrate an observation that a user makes in actual use.* IF they are bothered by tint and beam issues, the white wall test spares us all from reading tons of text, describing the user experience, and quantifies the issue so it can be communicated easily.
> 
> *Nobody JUST shines their light on a wall and then decides to return the light.* Shining on a wall is a way to Explain Why they are returning the light. There will still be people who settle for what they got, and won't take the time to return it.
> 
> ...



1. The first two bolded statements I'd have to disagree with. I've been around CPF for quite awhile and I've seen many users who post beamshots and talk about how they pointed the light on a wall, didn't like it, and immediately returned it with no additional testing/usage. For those people, a white wall test is the ONLY test they use. Search through the threads and you'll quickly see what I'm talking about. That was my point, to use one single criteria and automatically write off a light and return it is not a good evaluation of a light, imo, unless it is so horrendous (like an ugly green, purple, etc). The point isn't to criticize such posters but merely to bring to light (no pun intended) that some do actually open a box, shine it on the wall and return it if they see any flaws in the light. This is something which happens not just with flashlights but many high-end products or hobby specific products.

2. My exact words were "white wall hunting is only one out of many considerations when evaluating tint and usefulness of a new light." I see white wall tests as one of many ways for the end user to determine if it meets their expectations. If I open up a new light, shine it on the wall and it has an ugly purple or green tint (not subtle but very distinct) then I'll quickly be sending it back. If I open a light and it has a subtle green, yellow tint I will do further testing in my typical daily usage to see if I find it bothersome or not. Your last bolded statement is exactly my point; there are many ways to evaluate the tint and the white wall test is one out of many. 

18650, one of the tests I like to use my lights on is a walk through the woods. Spotting trail markers, encountering fog or snow, colors on vegetation, wood grain, etc are some of the ways I will use a light. There are cases where a warmer light will a slight yellow tint, like my ZL, will more accurately render some of these things or do a bit better in fog than my 4500k Nichia 219b. Sometimes trail markers can be difficult to spot when hiking, especially if faded, and having a light that makes that color stand out from the tree bark can be a lifesaver. I find my 4000k Cree with 93-95 is slightly better at this than my Nichia and much better than any of my other lights.


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## LeanBurn (Jul 17, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

I agree with many of the points and comparison photos made by jon_slider ven and others. Indeed our eyes and brains translate whatever light source we have at the time adjust the way we translate colors and make the best of it. I like white wall tests (WWT) for extra information and they have their place. The auto white balance however creates a floating frame of reference and any serious choices or opinions made from it would be a strange thing to do. 

I used WWT to show myself how much variance there is between the "NW" in all the ThruNite models I have. It was quite enlightening (ok...pun intended) to visualize in real life, but in taking a picture there is a loss in accuracy and translation due to auto white balance and lack of a benchmark. 

If we are talking about tint, the BBL's benchmark is the incandescent bulb. So for me when I put up a WWT picture to illustrate tint between any LEDs, the incandescent has to be included to provide that fixed frame of reference. 

Only on CPF could there be such differing opinions (some strange and strong ones too) on flashlights....wonderful.


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## markr6 (Jul 17, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

This is the tint snob thread. So when I shine my high CRI 4000K Nichia (Malkoff MD2) on a white wall and see a nice white tint, I'm happy. When I shine a 4000K Zebralight on a wall and see yellow, I'm upset. High CRI or not, it's not something I want to live with, no matter how good it looked outside (it looks pretty darn nice, actually). Part of it is the inconsistency between two 4000K lights that drives me crazy. Yes, everything I just said there is 37% insanity.


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## kaichu dento (Jul 17, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



snowlover91 said:


> Still, the point remains as I originally stated, that white wall hunting is only one out of many considerations when evaluating tint and usefulness of a new light. Furthermore, I’ve read many posts over the years from CPF posters who simply shine a light on a wall and perform no further testing. It’s not meant to demean other posters but simply highlight the fact that white wall hunting is a small part of evaluation.
> 
> A poll phrased that way would be meaningless. A better poll would be one asking if a person would return a light that exhibited beam artifacts or a tint issues on a white wall, and no other testing done.


Apparently here just for the argument when you disagree with me using the exact points in my post which you consider yourself to be contradicting. 

A better poll would be the one I mentioned, gaining the same results, but with your wording instead. Right. :tinfoil:

Fact of the matter is markr6 made some excellent points, jonslider made what should have been the definitive post on white walls worldwide and yet on you go... :tired:

Just for the record, my belief is that there are two kinds of CPF'ers: Ones who admit they shine their lights at white walls and ones who do it but make fun of others, then go back to looking at pictures of beamshots taken against a backdrop of white walls.


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## jon_slider (Jul 17, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

snowlover thanks for the exploration, I don't want to single you out as someone to debate, in fact, I think we are on the same side of the table 
Most of all I absolutely respect that you have found a light that works for your needs and application. Great to hear your descriptions and observations. Thanks for the food for thought.

LeanBurn, I also totally agree that auto white balance changes the tint of an image. That is why I intentionally include a cool white LED in my photos. It sets the white balance.

I also use an incandescent light at home, it is 3000k. I like to shine my flashlights on the ceiling near it, to compare how much cooler my LEDs are. All these tests are informing because they show relative tint. Like you, I find whitewall particularly informing when comparing identical model LEDs, as there can be some surprising variations..

this group surprised me, they are all 10180 N219b lights, Astrolux M01, M02, M03.. some pretty wild tint bin variation on the middle one in particular:










btw, my white wall studio is actually a piece of printer paper folded at 90 degrees.. recommended 

next I compare two of the 10180 N219b LEDs to my Maratac w Nichia.. surprise!




Not all Nichias are pink, at all 





fwiw, I dont post every photo I shoot, Im not a pro, Ive just a few steps that help me capture an image that approximately shows what I see, and more particularly, because Im a 4000k N219b snob (that is to say I have the most experience with it), I really like beam shots that contain a 4000k Nichia for my reference.

thanks to everyone contributing, really appreciate the chance to test and explore ideas together.
respect

ps
the only meaning any of these colors have, to me, is in the context of my experience using them. its not that I like the purple beam, particularly, but I prefer it to the green beam. I find the Maratac a little more yellow than I would like, but I tolerate it because of a number of other features I find value in, the size, the efficiency, the material, the circuit..

I can definitely see that just returning a light for being pink purple or green, misses the context of actual use, that could be so much more informing. The colors then are really only a reference point, to compare actual experience with.

So, "actual use" testing is definitely equally, or more important, than white wall comparisons.. both are useful, its not an OR choice, its an And choice.. kind of like buying lights


----------



## Modernflame (Jul 17, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

@jon_slider. I've thoroughly enjoyed your soap box stump speeches on beam tint and CRI. You've helped me to warm up to cool white, if you'll endure the pun. The only part I couldn't understand was the bit about green leaves and high CRI. I've always thought hi CRI works better on green as well, but my observation may be influenced by the poor rendition of nearby browns (tree bark, dirt, etc.) when using a typical ~70 CRI CW flashlight.


----------



## snowlover91 (Jul 17, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



kaichu dento said:


> Apparently here just for the argument when you disagree with me using the exact points in my post which you consider yourself to be contradicting.
> 
> A better poll would be the one I mentioned, gaining the same results, but with your wording instead. Right. :tinfoil:
> 
> ...



No, just pointing out an observation. Your original statement was "I highly doubt that a poll asking if anyone used a white wall as a sole test of a lights usefulness to them would get even a single positive vote. Over-hyped talking point that can't be put away soon enough." If a poll was phrased and said "Do you use a white wall as a sole test of a light's usefulness" then very few to none would admit to that. However, if a poll question was phrased "Would you return a light that exhibited beam artifacts/tint issues on a white wall?" the results would be much different. It is the same question, yes, but in any language the context and way a question is asked can have an impact on the results and the perception of those reading the question.

I have a feeling you have not carefully read my posts. I several times mentioned the usefulness of white wall testing and that I do it myself, and take beam shots as well. If you've seen me post before, you'll see that I've done quite a few white wall beam shots. They certainly have their place but shouldn't be the sole criteria, and as jon mentioned, I mostly agree with him. 

Furthermore, tint is subjective, so really any test whether on white walls, in the woods, or anywhere else will be based on a user's personal experience and preferences. Some users here use white wall testing as their sole criteria for determining if the light meets their standards or not. Is there anything wrong with that? Absolutely not, that is a personal choice/preference. Would it be better for a person to go through a wide range of tests and usage scenarios to further examine the usefulness of said light? In my opinion, yes. Mark's point is valid, if he shines it on the wall and it is so off-putting that he can't stand it, then he needs to get rid of it. I mentioned previously that the only time I consider the white wall test as the sole criteria is if the perceived tint is so horrible (green, purple, yellow, etc) that a person won't be happy with it. However, in a situation where it has a subtle tint of yellow, green, etc then the person should evaluate further with other usage scenarios and tests to determine the usefulness of the light.

Jon summarized the same thoughts I have quite well below: 


> ps
> the only meaning any of these colors have, to me, is in the context of my experience using them. its not that I like the purple beam, particularly, but I prefer it to the green beam. *I find the Maratac a little more yellow than I would like, but I tolerate it because of a number of other features I find value in, the size, the efficiency, the material, the circuit..*
> 
> I can definitely see that just returning a light for being pink purple or green, misses the context of actual use, that could be so much more informing. The colors then are really only a reference point, to compare actual experience with.
> ...


----------



## jon_slider (Jul 17, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



Modernflame said:


> I've always thought hi CRI works better on green as well


I recently discovered that my 70 CRI cool white flashlight did a better job on green leaves than my favorite neutral high cri nichia. I was as surprised as you are.. there was no bark, wood, nor dirt involved, just pure green canopy.. the cool was more lush.. strange but true.. look at the green spectrum of these LEDs:

xpg2 6000k 71 cri





N219A 4300k 87 Cri





both can do green
but when dirt and bark come into the picture, then yes, High Cri has a big advantage:





you can see though the green actually pops more on the cool white side (because it fails to show the reds and browns in the leaf maybe)


snowlover91 said:


> tint is subjective


I agree. But it bothers me when people "seem" to disagree, until I find find a rhyme to their reason.

that is why Im investing my efforts into emphasizing that the subjective prefference might actually be more universally held in common, IF similar mindsets, our in this case, white balance of the brain, are in play.

example, a guy who drives a truck to service a boiler in a basement will enter the dark and will be glad to use his 6000k 500 lumen light, for about half an hour, after which he might switch to his 4000k Nichia and be perfectly happy spending the next hour underground with 100 Lumens of neutral white light..

a guy who works at Home Depot, and has to go into a back room to find something, 4000k, probably not. Inside my camper, close range, 10 lumens and a Beer, not likely to be 6000k.. get my drift? People aren't that different, its their environment that varies, and their preference is based on where they are using the lights.. and at what lumen levels..

kind words are always appreciated, Im also grateful when my typing echoes other's thinking.. thanks 
I also appreciate your forgiveness when I test my thoughts in long wordy posts, only later to learn I disagree with myself.. LOL

whirled peas


----------



## kaichu dento (Jul 18, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



snowlover91 said:


> It is the same question, yes, but in any language the context and way a question is asked can have an impact on the results and the perception of those reading the question.


Yes, and like you, I find a lot of valuable content in jon_slider's posts.

We share some views and differ on others, just like the rest of humanity. At least we've got lights...


----------



## Modernflame (Jul 18, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



jon_slider said:


> I recently discovered that my 70 CRI cool white flashlight did a better job on green leaves than my favorite neutral high cri nichia.
> 
> both can do green
> but when dirt and bark come into the picture, then yes, High Cri has a big advantage:
> ...



Thanks for the photos. I'm trying, but I still struggle to see what you mean. Maybe the green seems to pop because there is a higher contrast with the bark? I'm going to play around in the woods tonight and find a green canopy with no nearby browns.


----------



## ven (Jul 18, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

I also notice the xp-g2 6000k has pretty fairly accurate colours. For a cool white 6000k, it is.......how can I put it, easily tolerable maybe. I just find my eyes welcome a slightly warmer cast generally, and certainly in the evening. 

An older quad xp-g2 5000k off vinh(CQvn) is still a pleasure to use today as it was several years back. When used in work , with cooler artificial light, it makes it look on the warm side of neutral=perfect for me! 

Back to the 6000k xp-g2, I am pretty made up I have tried it again of late(you know all these nichia's and xpl HI 4000-5000k spoil us). I don't like p60's not in use(left to one side by having a preferred ). So at least now I can enjoy using it again, all be it with selected aplications(more in day time).


----------



## Ozythemandias (Jul 18, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

Speaking of XP-G2, whatever Don is using in the Haiku pleasantly surprised me. I have to find out what bin it is.


----------



## ven (Jul 18, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



Ozythemandias said:


> Speaking of XP-G2, whatever Don is using in the Haiku pleasantly surprised me. I have to find out what bin it is.




I was never a big fan from the start with xp-g2 being honest, throwy little LED though(maybe because i am more biased towards flood than throw). Over time things have swapped around and now appreciate all this time on ,how good they are. De-domed it can not be beaten all this time on, granted not the highest lumen/output but still a force to be reckoned with. The 4000k in malkoffs is real nice, 5000k i have in a quad, to 6000k in a sportac triple to name some..............all great in their own way.


----------



## jon_slider (Jul 20, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

I find the 6000k Low CRI of the XPG2 tolerable outdoors during the day, when there is lots of ambient sunlight to add the missing reds. Most of all when working on a greasy old car motor, I care less about the color, just need the brightness.

But before anyone gets the wrong impression, the Low CRI Cool White still sucks at showing reds, and is not my first pick at night for close range. I only tolerate cool white when I need the brightness and don't care about the green tint.

A simple demonstration of how bad the CRI of a 6000k LED really is, can be seen by shining the 6000k light at the palm of your hand. Zombie, Dead, Pale, pathetic, come to mind. 

When it comes to showing realistic skin tones, the N219b High Cri options are FAR superior. Try it yourself. Shine a 6000k Low CRI at the palm of your hand, then do the same with a High CRI Nichia..


----------



## kaichu dento (Jul 20, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



jon_slider said:


> Shine a ... at the palm of your hand...


This is the first thing I do with any light, then I go looking for leaves, followed by items with red or orange, and finally, look for the beam pattern and throw/flood transitions. 

Yep, palm of hand test for me too.


----------



## joelbnyc (Nov 14, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

Does anyone know of a decent zebralight-ish side-clicky 1x14500/AA or 1x18650, between 3500 and 4500K, that would have <BBL tint? I guess I am looking for equivalent of 4R, 4U. 5R. 5A1, 5A4, 5D1, 5D4 or 6A.

Looking for a tint roughly like my Prometheus Beta QRv2 Nichia 219B 4500K on the left. And preferably high CRI. Spending way too much time searching here. Maybe a Convoy S2/+ or Jaxman E2L (dont see 4000K/4500K Nichia 219B version of E2L currently) is closest I've found, but I want smaller and a side clicky.


----------



## jon_slider (Nov 14, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



joelbnyc said:


> Does anyone know of a decent zebralight-ish side-clicky 1x14500/AA or 1x18650, between 3500 and 4500K, that would have <BBL tint?
> ...
> a tint roughly like my Prometheus Beta QRv2 Nichia 219B 4500K on the left. And preferably high CRI.
> ...
> and a side clicky.



My Beta QRv2 started my love affair with Nichia 219b LEDs, it ruined me for Cool White and low CRI. So Ive ended up having people modify lights for me, to LEDs Im interested in.

I had a Mecarmy PT-18 light modified to 4000k n219b 90+CRI LEDs, and it has a beautiful pink cast. I no longer have my Beta, so I can't show you a direct comparison.
this is where we got the 219b LEDs, its a very good batch imo 

You could choose a 14500 version, the PT-14, if you prefer. It does have a sideswitch.. 

As far as I know Zebras are not easy to modify, and I have never heard of one with a Nichia.. If you need help with modding, out member gunga offers that service...

here is a thread about the PT series, with pics


----------



## Derek Dean (Nov 14, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



jon_slider said:


> As far as I know Zebras are not easy to modify, and I have never heard of one with a Nichia.. If you need help with modding, out member gunga offers that service...


Ah yes, they ARE difficult to mod. Fortunately, I had an older model SC600 with the removable bezel, however, my understanding is that it was still a bear to mod, but here it is, still my most used and loved light to date (skip to post #35 to see the finished mod):
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...dded-with-Triple-Nichia-219-and-Carlco-Optics


----------



## ven (Nov 15, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



joelbnyc said:


> Does anyone know of a decent zebralight-ish side-clicky 1x14500/AA or 1x18650, between 3500 and 4500K, that would have <BBL tint? I guess I am looking for equivalent of 4R, 4U. 5R. 5A1, 5A4, 5D1, 5D4 or 6A.
> 
> Looking for a tint roughly like my Prometheus Beta QRv2 Nichia 219B 4500K on the left. And preferably high CRI. Spending way too much time searching here. Maybe a Convoy S2/+ or Jaxman E2L (dont see 4000K/4500K Nichia 219B version of E2L currently) is closest I've found, but I want smaller and a side clicky.




You will struggle getting anything rosy from ZL as Mr ZL is not a nichia fan ................unfortunately. Now my sc63w which is an xhp35 and 4500k, with 80+cri has a nice "tint" to it. Hard to describe, hint of warmth and a creamy to it. The xp-l2 easywhite does lean towards yellow to my eyes, yet the 4500k not as much as the 4000k i have. The 4500k is quite pleasing in the sc53w . Thats just my experience, and ZL is well known for the tint lottery.


----------



## iamlucky13 (Nov 15, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



joelbnyc said:


> Does anyone know of a decent zebralight-ish side-clicky 1x14500/AA or 1x18650, between 3500 and 4500K, that would have <BBL tint? I guess I am looking for equivalent of 4R, 4U. 5R. 5A1, 5A4, 5D1, 5D4 or 6A.
> 
> Looking for a tint roughly like my Prometheus Beta QRv2 Nichia 219B 4500K on the left. And preferably high CRI. Spending way too much time searching here. Maybe a Convoy S2/+ or Jaxman E2L (dont see 4000K/4500K Nichia 219B version of E2L currently) is closest I've found, but I want smaller and a side clicky.



Not quite - The Nitecore Tip CRI is reportedly 3500K and side-clicky, but in a different form factor. It's got a built-in battery almost equivalent to a 14500 cell.


----------



## ven (Nov 16, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

All 4500k, left sc63w xhp35 4500k, middle sc53w xp-l2 easywhite 4500k and haiku 219b 4500k

Does not show on the sc63w, but there is actually a hint of rosy in the beam, presumably down to the lens coating! Either way, in use its become one of my fav's.............very nice. The 4500k haiku in use comes across as the most pure out of my 219b's(have many).


----------



## joelbnyc (Nov 16, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



iamlucky13 said:


> The Nitecore Tip CRI is reportedly 3500K and side-clicky


I don't love those photon-type key lights, but I might try it on keychain. I prefer swappable batteries, though. I should get my 360lm 10440 Ultratac K18 SS modded.



Derek Dean said:


> http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?366586-Zebralight-SC600-Modded-with-Triple-Nichia-219-and-Carlco-Optics


Awesome  My precious indeed, hehe.



jon_slider said:


> My Beta QRv2 started my love affair with Nichia 219b LEDs, it ruined me for Cool White and low CRI.


A modded Mecarmy looks cool for a coat pocket outdoor light, but for this purpose I'm looking for length <95mm, head diameter <26mm, to replace my Manker E11 NW, which is 83mm x 20mm. An sc53w/c, sc63w, or sc64w/c would be perfect form factor. Tints don't look bad in your shots. Lottery, though. Also no Cree's have good R9 value, from what I've seen.

CW is the one thing I too can't tolerate anymore, except in a long thrower just-for-the-sake-of-throw.

As for tints, my brain adapts to a slightly green NW Cree unless I'm looking for green. But sometimes I look for green. And they don't render colors quite as well as something with a better R9 value. I am going to buy a 7A binned 3500K XM-L2 or XP-L Convoy S2. 7A is entirely < BBL. But a 120mm long rear-click is not my ideal.

And while the Nichia 219B is great compared to most flashlight LED's, it isn't the be-all/end-all. After learning about TM-30 and shortcomings of CRI (thanks Maukka for posting the TM-30 video), I don't put a ton of stock in CRI alone.

Nichia's high CRI lights have R9 values in 70's, great compared to other flashlight led's. But as people have mentioned, there is better tech- those yuji's, or I think better still:

Xicato Artist Series, R9 value of 96 

About better color fidelity than a halogen. Supposedly these are some of the best color rendering LEDs, with best TM-30 metrics, on the market.





Those Xicato lamps are of course for fixed usages, with Zhaga-compatible holders. If Watts = Amps x Volts, they require 30-40 Volts.

But the point is, the technology is out there. There might be some emitter like this that could actually be put into a flashlight.


----------



## Tachead (Nov 16, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



joelbnyc said:


> *And while the Nichia 219B is great compared to most flashlight LED's, it isn't the be-all/end-all.* After learning about TM-30 and shortcomings of CRI (thanks Maukka for posting the TM-30 video), I don't put a ton of stock in CRI alone.
> 
> *Nichia's high CRI lights have R9 values in 70's*, great compared to other flashlight led's. But as people have mentioned, there is better tech- those yuji's, or I think better still



It's all about what bin you can get man. Nichia's can have far higher R9's then 70. The 219B SW40 R9080's Clemence recently ran out of were 98CRI with an R9 of 97, and a TM-30 of 92.


----------



## jon_slider (Nov 16, 2017)

Regarding LEDs with 90+ R9, some of the modders, such as gunga, may have stock of the N219b 4000k 9080 LEDs from Clemence.. pic is a link:





as far as the issue with yellow/green tint above the BBL, that is common for Zebras, a 1/8 minus green filter can help with the tint.. it also very slightly raises R9.. see this post by maukka


----------



## joelbnyc (Nov 16, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



Tachead said:


> It's all about what bin you can get man. Nichia's can have far higher R9's then 70. The 219B SW40 R9080's Clemence recently ran out of were 98CRI with an R9 of 97, and a TM-30 of 92.



Oh that's cool. I didn't see anything about TM-30 metrics in the 2017 Nichia catalogue.

I want a Nichia 9080 bin light now!

Also, as Michael Royer of PNNL points out in this video, a TM-30 Rf of say 90 but an Rg of greater than 100 with saturation towards the reds might be more visually pleasing to those of us who like the slightly rosy tints.

Example, subjects preferred this lighting source for this scene, above a bunch of others:






So, fidelity measures like CRI/, CRI-15, Rf arent everything. As I'm sure most posters in this thread know more than I.

But as fidelity gets closer to 100, range of possible saturation departure gets smaller:


----------



## jon_slider (Nov 16, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



joelbnyc said:


> I want a Nichia 9080 bin light now!
> 
> Also, as Michael Royer of PNNL points out in this video, a TM-30 Rf of say 90 but an Rg of greater than 100 with saturation towards the reds might be more visually pleasing to those of us who like the slightly rosy tints.
> 
> ...



here are the N219b 4000k 9080 , and N219b 4500k 9080





here a those leds in Maratacs, along with a stock Nichia Worm





and those 9080 LEDs w a 3000k 219c 9050





and the benefit of minus green filters:


----------



## neutralwhite (Dec 8, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

I've got a dilemma with my triple s2+ with 4500k 219b 9080 Nichia ,
i don't know if I should mod this with something different now such as XPL hi CW , XHP 50cw, even if possible the Nichia 6500k in hcri!.


----------



## ven (Dec 8, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

Keep as is neutralwhite, just get another host for new mods


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## iamlucky13 (Dec 8, 2017)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

What's the motivation for even considering replacing the R9080's? Do you have one of Mountain's high-powered mods that might severely overdrive 219B's at max mode? Can't the drivers in those modded lights have their max-mode programmed?

Unless it's a concern like that, it seems to me they should stay there unless you found an even better use for those emitters.


----------



## iamlucky13 (Jan 31, 2018)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

Quick test shot of Yuji's 135L COB hooked up to my benchtop power supply.

They're rated for about ~800 lumens at 600mA (~16V). I tested it all the way up to the max specified current of 900mA, then dialed back down to around 100mA so it wouldn't blind me while focusing the camera.

It looks excellent - like a far more powerful version of their 5mm LED's, just like I hoped. As shown it's a pure mule. I've got a couple 30mm Carclo TIR optics that work with it, too. One makes floody beam similar to the 5mm LED's, and the other is tighter, similar to my Emisar D4.

Edit - trying to fix picture link:


----------



## LeanBurn (Feb 1, 2018)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

pics?


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## iamlucky13 (Feb 1, 2018)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



LeanBurn said:


> pics?



Hmm...Google photos is malfunctioning. The photo is in a shared directory, but apparently not showing to anyone but me. Let me try a different host.


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## ma tumba (Feb 2, 2018)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

Looks like we are having big boost in high cri offerings lately. I am more into much smaller lights now so I am about to test the 3k, 4k and 5k 9080 nichias e21 from virence.com, but these cobs are great!


----------



## NPL (Feb 2, 2018)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



ma tumba said:


> Looks like we are having big boost in high cri offerings lately. I am more into much smaller lights now so I am about to test the 3k, 4k and 5k 9080 nichias e21 from virence.com, but these cobs are great!


What lights are you installing them in? Reflector or TIR? Keep us posted, super curious about these LEDs.


----------



## ArazelEternal (Feb 2, 2018)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

I dont think Ive seen enough different flashlights and LEDs to form a real opinion as a tint snob. However, I seem to really like the tint of my Nitecore P12GT. To my eyes, it seems to be pretty neutral, maybe leaning more towards cool. The light seems very "clean" for lack of a better term.


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## ma tumba (Feb 3, 2018)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



NPL said:


> What lights are you installing them in? Reflector or TIR? Keep us posted, super curious about these LEDs.


Most likely this will end up as a quad board with 4 LEDs in Tana's alpha LE. I will need to find an optimal mix of 4 different (or maybe same) LEDs that give me the "best" tint.

The second light would be a sipik sk68, with either a single LED or, if I eventually find a good 4 channel driver, like the DrJones's RGBW LE, with different LEDs, each working in its dedicated mode.


----------



## neutralwhite (Feb 3, 2018)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

im building a single E21A 6500k 9080 LED in a Maclites host P60 drop in style , and an S2+ host. mostly outdoor city use. both potted.
I have a triple S2+ 219B 9080 for anything else.
damn great LED's!.


----------



## Boris74 (Feb 3, 2018)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



ArazelEternal said:


> I dont think Ive seen enough different flashlights and LEDs to form a real opinion as a tint snob. However, I seem to really like the tint of my Nitecore P12GT. To my eyes, it seems to be pretty neutral, maybe leaning more towards cool. The light seems very "clean" for lack of a better term.



i have a MT40GT with the XP-L HI V3 like the P12GT and that is a great LED. not “neutral” but it’s way better than any CW light I have. Very clean like you said. It’s a great LED when you need to reach out and light something up.


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## ArazelEternal (Feb 3, 2018)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



Boris74 said:


> i have a MT40GT with the XP-L HI V3 like the P12GT and that is a great LED. not “neutral” but it’s way better than any CW light I have. Very clean like you said. It’s a great LED when you need to reach out and light something up.


Well, I have a hard time telling what is neutral because I guess Im always second guessing myself. Im strongly protan (red-green colorblind) so some colors, tints, hues, etc are really hard for me to see and be sure about. So for me, unless a LED is obviously cool (like my mag solitare) or clearly warm, to me I would classify it as neutral.


----------



## iamlucky13 (Feb 3, 2018)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



ma tumba said:


> The second light would be a sipik sk68, with either a single LED or, if I eventually find a good 4 channel driver, like the DrJones's RGBW LE, with different LEDs, each working in its dedicated mode.



So you'll be able to change color temperature by adjusting each channel? That would be very cool!

I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on how the R9080's compare to Yuji's of similar color temperature.


----------



## ma tumba (Feb 4, 2018)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



iamlucky13 said:


> So you'll be able to change color temperature by adjusting each channel? That would be very cool!



If I could get the DrJones's driver then I'll have this opportunity. Although this driver was intended for multicolor LEDs and had therefore all those irrelevant fancy modes, it also had some very relevant ones including true RGB mixing, and all that with memory. But DrJones has been inactive for more than a year so not sure.

Alternatively, there are single mode 4 channel drivers available from Mountain Electronics and Kaidomain, that have been successfully altered by djozz at the other forum. He was able to set fixed (by choice of components) modes, each mode = separate LED @ a desired current. So what can be done along this path is for example:
mode1 = [email protected]
mode2 = [email protected]
mode3 = [email protected]
mode4 = (5000K+6500K)@300ma



iamlucky13 said:


> I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on how the R9080's compare to Yuji's of similar color temperature.


I will certainly share this this week, the LEDs are at the post office, need to pick them up.


----------



## markr6 (Feb 5, 2018)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



ma tumba said:


> Looks like we are having big boost in high cri offerings lately.



So true. I was pushing for this years ago when an 80CRI NW light was the outlier. And people would say "it's just a flashlight" and "your eyes adapt" and "just use the damn light" and "you won't notice it in real life". Well, I guess I don't live in real life, it's just made up. I'm a robot. All the high CRI stuff exploded over the last couple years and definitely just the past year. We have high CRI in monster lights, pen lights, keychain lights, headlamps, household light bulbs...not just from the typical few manufacturers, but just about everyone. It's an exciting time!


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## eh4 (Feb 6, 2018)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

I had a really good experience with Mountain Electronics, purchased 4 of the bare XPG3 R2 3000 Kelvin 90 CRI LEDS, purchased one of the 20mm angle offset Quad MCPCBs that eliminate the square/cross beam pattern, and requested that the bare leds be reflowed onto the MCPCB in the order notes. 
Received order, swapped the MCPCB of my D4 Emisar, and have been extremely happy with it ever since.
Besides being a fantastically pleasant light at the lower end of the ramping range, at the higher end of the ramping UI, it's reminiscent of a bonfire, both in tint and in how quickly the flashlight heats up .


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## trananh (Apr 12, 2018)

I have changed the led of my Manker e02 to a Nichia 219b sw45, this will now be my favorite edc light






!



! 
!



! 
!



! 
!



! 
!



! 
!



!


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## F89 (Apr 12, 2018)

trananh said:


> I have changed the led of my Manker e02 to a Nichia 219b sw45, this will now be my favorite edc light!



Well done on that mod. Looks like that board could have got messed up pretty easily once things started to flow.
Good to see the Victorinox in there helping out too.
I'm a big fan of the 219B sw45k also.


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## Nichia! (Apr 12, 2018)

Excellent work


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## archimedes (Apr 12, 2018)

@Nichia ... would you mind removing your lengthy "quote" of those numerous large photos ?

They are easily visible to all, on this very page, just two posts up.

Thanks in advance.


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## Nichia! (Apr 12, 2018)

archimedes said:


> @Nichia ... would you mind removing your lengthy "quote" of those numerous large photos ?
> 
> They are easily visible to all, on this very page, just two posts up.
> 
> Thanks in advance.



Done


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## archimedes (Apr 13, 2018)

Nichia! said:


> Done



Thanks, and cheers


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## RCS1300 (Apr 13, 2018)

Don't know that I would call myself a Tint Snob, but okay. It is a catchy thread title.

After about 8 years with LED flashlights I have found myself looking for High Color Rendering CRI emitters now and even further searching for the highest CRI possible with the most accurate rendering of reds, browns, and greens possible. Even searching for the most appealing LED models and temperatures - favoring Nichia 219B with about 4,000-4,500 Kelvin.

Why? Because the LEDs are efficient and bright enough now that it is time to get accurate renderings of rich colors in my wood furniture, red and green indoor plants, and of course in the outdoors. Plus, High CRI lights seem to be much easier on my eyes when reading and at 4am in the morning.

I do have a XM-L throwing LED emitter in my outdoor distance light that throws 100 yards to see any possible danger like black bears and coyotes and a night riding bicycle light that throws 50 yards, but that is it. 

My current acquisitions include - 
1. HDS Executive Clicky Hi CRI w/219B Nichia emitter at approx. 4,000 Kelvin and 93 CRI
2. Muyshondt Aeon Mk III Hi CRI w/219 Nichia emitter that seems approx. 5,000 Kelvin and 90+ CRI
3. Maratac AAA Hi CRI w/219 Nichia emitter that seems approx. 3,500 Kelvin and 90 CRI ($40 light, not sure of Kelvin or CRI)

Not sure if anyone has posted a link to the Gallery below. Interesting to see how the Nichia 219b distinguishes itself from the Nichia 219C plus, of course, the different kelvin levels. See Tint shot chart 01.

https://www.virence.com/gallery


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## markr6 (Apr 17, 2018)

RCS1300 said:


> Not sure if anyone has posted a link to the Gallery below. Interesting to see how the Nichia 219b distinguishes itself from the Nichia 219C plus, of course, the different kelvin levels. See Tint shot chart 01.
> 
> https://www.virence.com/gallery



Yes! Flashlight porno! That 219B sw45 really stands out to me. Good stuff.


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## F89 (Apr 18, 2018)

markr6 said:


> Yes! Flashlight porno! That 219B sw45 really stands out to me. Good stuff.



I find it hard to use much else than the 219B sw45k since I got a handful and modded a few lights. It really is a standout.


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## RCS1300 (Apr 18, 2018)

F89 said:


> I find it hard to use much else than the 219B sw45k since I got a handful and modded a few lights. It really is a standout.




I may want to have Vinhnguyen mod one of my HDS 250 lumen lights to a Yuji high CRI emitter. Will this emitter fit and where can I get one?


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## archimedes (Apr 18, 2018)

RCS1300 said:


> I may want to have Vinhnguyen mod one of my HDS 250 lumen lights to a Yuji high CRI emitter. Will this emitter fit and where can I get one?



To my knowledge Yuji do not make a compatible emitter at this time.


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## neutralwhite (Apr 18, 2018)

I have spoke to Daniel and Nicklaus at Yuji a few times over the last 2 years and they have mentioned that they ran into issues making an LED for a flashlight.
I too have been after this a while for my HDS!.


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## RCS1300 (Apr 18, 2018)

archimedes said:


> To my knowledge Yuji do not make a compatible emitter at this time.




That is too bad. I have seen some documentation that Yuji has emitters that have exceeded 97 CRI. Guess the 219b at 4,500K is the one to beat for high CRI in my HDS Systems light even though I have read that the 219c is more efficient.

https://www.yujiintl.com/packages/high-cri-led-test-reports-neutral-white-5630


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## archimedes (Apr 18, 2018)

Yes, I believe that the Yuji VTC (violet-pumped phosphor) series has achieved CRI ratings up to 98 (with R9 > 90)


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## NPL (Apr 18, 2018)

F89 said:


> I find it hard to use much else than the 219B sw45k since I got a handful and modded a few lights. It really is a standout.


Do you find the 9080 219b too Rosy?


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## neutralwhite (Apr 18, 2018)

I have one in an s2+ , and its a little rosy, but very a colourful outlook on red.


NPL said:


> Do you find the 9080 219b too Rosy?


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## maukka (Apr 19, 2018)

archimedes said:


> Yes, I believe that the Yuji VTC (violet-pumped phosphor) series has achieved CRI ratings up to 98 (with R9 > 90)



Yes, they are pretty remarkable. I'm not too big of a fan of the D50 target, but that's easy to correct with a filter.


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## iamlucky13 (Apr 20, 2018)

maukka said:


> Yes, they are pretty remarkable. I'm not too big of a fan of the D50 target, but that's easy to correct with a filter.



Not a fan of 5000K, or not a fan of the the D-series illuminants?

Some of their violet-pumped emitters are made in 5600K and 6500K and also some lower CCT versions, but I guess those are targeted at approximating the black body curves, not tweaked to get as close as possible to a standard illuminant.

Comparing spectra in the datasheets for the regular VTC-5730 and the 5730-D50, it looks like the D50 uses a little less of the blue-emitting phosphor and has a slightly higher relative violet output.


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## twistedraven (Apr 20, 2018)

He's not a fan of D50, which is slightly green biased compared to a perfect black body spectrum. D50-D65 is representative of natural daylight.


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## iamlucky13 (Apr 21, 2018)

twistedraven said:


> He's not a fan of D50, which is slightly green biased compared to a perfect black body spectrum. D50-D65 is representative of natural daylight.



Ah.

I was thinking about the spectrum too much, which I guess is a bit abstract, and not about the tint. When I asked, the obvious fact shown in the chromaticity diagram that the D-series illuminants sit above the black body line in the slightly green tinted range didn't occur to me.


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## trananh (May 10, 2018)

Solarforce P1D with copper pill, quad nichia 219b sw45k r9080 










.
Copper foil to maximise heat transfer
!



!
!










All with nichia r9080 leds


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## ven (May 10, 2018)

Very nice trananh, I like your taste 

:welcome:


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## markr6 (May 10, 2018)

trananh said:


> nichia 219b sw45k r9080



:twothumbs:twothumbs:twothumbs


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## klrman (May 11, 2018)

xp-l hd v6 3d on my blf q8 around 4750-5000k


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## trananh (May 12, 2018)

Thank you, this is a tint comparison of some of my leds
Nichia 219B R9080 4500k - CREE XPL-Hi V2 5D - Nichia 219B 4000k?








Triple Nichia 219BT-V1 4500k R9080:
!



!
.
.
Cree XPL-HI 4000k
!



!
.


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## ven (May 13, 2018)

I thought the xpl HI where quite consistent(well i guess they are overall). As most are a little rosy/warm i have, i also have one that is towards yellow in tint like yours.


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## twistedraven (Jul 31, 2018)

Just a heads up to all the snobbiest of snobs out there: there is currently a group buy going for the new Fireflies ROT66, which is-- if I'm not mistaken-- the first factory light to offer the Nichia 219B 4500k SW45 tint bin in R9080 grade. The important part is the R9080. Other lights have offered the SW45 in R9050, but the R9080 is even rosier and boasts R9 (deep red) levels of 80-90+. What is the CRI of the ROT66? Just over 96 with R9 at 93.

The ROT66 is a 3x18650 soda-can style light with 9x Nichia or XPL HI emitters under 25 degree optics. 

You can see this site's goup buy under Freeme's vendor subsection.,

The light is also available directly from Firefly's website as well.


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## LED Light Fanatic (Aug 24, 2018)

Just made a 90+ CRI 50.2 4500K and it is now my favorite. This tint is what they use in art galleries if I'm not mistaken. I have XP-G2 5700K 90 CRI, XP-G3 2700K 80 CRI, and the 50.2 is the most balanced light of them all. Whites still look white and no so totally yellowish. In fact there appears to be a slight rosy spectrum added to this new LED that was recently released; there is a clear rosy reflection off the reflector when held at an angle. The light does not actually appear rosy like a Nichia, but there appears to have some of this rosy spectrum "added" (leaning more from yellow to rosy) which likely helps boost that CRI to 90+ as the reds looker much better than the rest of my lights. This looks very close to mid to late morning light to me and CREE finally got it right on this particular model 50.2 this time it appears. This appears to be the best combo of tint, CRI, and highest lumens LED readily available from CREE on the market right now (in my picky opinion), only ​through mouser that I have found.

Here is the part (Cree XHP-50.2 LED 4500K 90CRI): Part # XHP50B-00-0000-0D0UH245G

​​


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## Random Dan (Aug 24, 2018)

LED Light Fanatic said:


> Just made a 90+ CRI 50.2 4500K and it is now my favorite. This tint is what they use in art galleries if I'm not mistaken. I have XP-G2 5700K 90 CRI, XP-G3 2700K 80 CRI, and the 50.2 is the most balanced light of them all. Whites still look white and no so totally yellowish. In fact there appears to be a slight rosy spectrum added to this new LED that was recently released; there is a clear rosy reflection off the reflector when held at an angle. The light does not actually appear rosy like a Nichia, but there appears to have some of this rosy spectrum "added" (leaning more from yellow to rosy) which likely helps boost that CRI to 90+ as the reds looker much better than the rest of my lights. This looks very close to mid to late morning light to me and CREE finally got it right on this particular model 50.2 this time it appears. This appears to be the best combo of tint, CRI, and highest lumens LED readily available from CREE on the market right now (in my picky opinion), only ​through mouser that I have found.
> 
> Here is the part (Cree XHP-50.2 LED 4500K 90CRI): Part # XHP50B-00-0000-0D0UH245G
> 
> ​​


Welcome to CPF and great first post! I don't own any 50.2 lights, but if I did I'd probably be picking up a few of those for swapping. It's a good time to be a tint snob.


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## Nichia! (Aug 24, 2018)

Everyone here knows that all the resent Cree LEDs (xpg3, 50.2....etc) are VERY BAD for tint snob and even for people who like NW light they are just EXTREMELY BAD and HORRIBLE for Hi CRI and NW light as a choice..


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## Nichia! (Aug 24, 2018)

Do you Like Hi CRI flashlights?? Get a flashlight with nichia 219b 4000k and you will never look back to cool white lights EVER AGAIN!!!


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## markr6 (Aug 25, 2018)

Nichia! said:


> Everyone here knows that all the resent Cree LEDs (xpg3, 50.2....etc) are VERY BAD for tint snob and even for people who like NW light they are just EXTREMELY BAD and HORRIBLE for Hi CRI and NW light as a choice..



I guess the Tool AA 2.0 I have coming will suck then. I expected that, but we'll see on Monday exactly how bad it is.


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## markr6 (Aug 27, 2018)

trananh said:


> Thank you, this is a tint comparison of some of my leds
> Nichia 219B R9080 4500k - CREE XPL-Hi V2 5D - Nichia 219B 4000k?



I'm trying to do some comparisons between 2 or 3 lights. Whether I use auto or manual WB, I still get very inaccurate results. For example, if I used the 3 lights you have above, they would probably all show up white.


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## NPL (Aug 27, 2018)

If you are using jpg, instead of Raw,no setting will be reliable. Manual white balance is a must. Best is to take one picture with all three lights on at the same time using manual white balance in RAW.


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## markr6 (Aug 27, 2018)

NPL said:


> If you are using jpg, instead of Raw,no setting will be reliable. Manual white balance is a must. Best is to take one picture with all three lights on at the same time using manual white balance in RAW.



I'll give that another try. But in my experience, white balance in raw just makes everything nice and neutral...instead of showing good vs. bad tints.


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## staticx57 (Aug 27, 2018)

Nichia! said:


> Do you Like Hi CRI flashlights?? Get a flashlight with nichia 219b 4000k and you will never look back to cool white lights EVER AGAIN!!!



I'm using a 6500k light right now


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## markr6 (Aug 28, 2018)

Nichia! said:


> Do you Like Hi CRI flashlights?? Get a flashlight with nichia 219b 4000k and you will never look back to cool white lights EVER AGAIN!!!



I was comparing some lights last night after getting my Emisar D4S Nichia 219c. There's a huge difference between that and my M61 with NVSL219B/93CRI/4000K. Both nice, but that 219B 4000K is hard to beat.


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## Nichia! (Aug 28, 2018)

staticx57 said:


> I'm using a 6500k light right now



I have few cool white lights too, but I don't use them much..


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## Nichia! (Aug 28, 2018)

markr6 said:


> I was comparing some lights last night after getting my Emisar D4S Nichia 219c. There's a huge difference between that and my M61 with NVSL219B/93CRI/4000K. Both nice, but that 219B 4000K is hard to beat.



It's really hard (impossible really) to beat nichia LEDs in terms of tint.


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## markr6 (Aug 28, 2018)

Here are two great, but quite different, Nichias. 219B in a Malkoff M61. 219C in Emisar D4S, which is great for comparison since you can ramp up and down infinitely to match the other light's output.


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## twistedraven (Aug 28, 2018)

80 CRI XHP35 HI 4500k on left, 90 CRI 219B SW45k R9080 4500k in middle, 90 CRI XHP50.2 4000k on right.


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## markr6 (Aug 28, 2018)

twistedraven said:


> 90 CRI 219B SW45k R9080 4500k in middle



Hell yes!!!


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## twistedraven (Aug 28, 2018)

The SW45k R9080 Nichia really does make my H600FC look dingy in comparison.  The picture doesn't do it justice. When I get my D4s in I'll have to really sit down and do some good comparison shots.


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## ven (Aug 28, 2018)

twistedraven said:


> 80 CRI XHP35 HI 4500k on left, 90 CRI 219B SW45k R9080 4500k in middle, 90 CRI XHP50.2 4000k on right.





I could live with each one(on their own of course, not used or mixed with other flavours) very easily. Your HI looks similar to mine although hard to tell with intensity/tint, the 50.2 looks nicer than i expected it to . I just expected crazy yellow, and one of the reasons i have stuck with the xhp50 5000k for now. 

Still even with the 4500k 219b 9080, i prefer the 219b 4000k in the evenings more. Just that little hint of warmth i like ......................


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## ma tumba (Aug 28, 2018)

Beyond the 5000k optisolis the best thing I beheld was my d4 with nichia 219c/5000. Just pure white with good color rendering. By far superior than 219b 4500 9080.


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## NutSAK (Aug 28, 2018)

Nichia! said:


> It's really hard (impossible really) to beat nichia LEDs in terms of tint.



I would agree with that from the perspective of high-flux emitters. However, the 5mm Yugi high-CRI emitters I've used for a couple of mods are the most natural I've seen to date.


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## Lithium466 (Aug 28, 2018)

A few Philips or Osram emitters also have very nice tints (mostly older generations), but not at Nichia's power level. Same thing with the unobtainable Luminous High CRI emitters.


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## ven (Aug 28, 2018)

I really love the philips luxeon T lithium466, meagre 325lm(dont care! quality over quantity for me), 85CRI( can my eyes tell the difference between 85/90 CRI.........honestly dont know that easy, i can tell tints though). The 5000k is fairly clean with a hint of creamy, its wonderful on the eye and one of my favs full stop. Too add, its also housed in my fav ZL sc62d! Love the ribbed body/design on this, dont care for the sc63/sc64 any where near as much.


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## Nichia! (Aug 28, 2018)

NutSAK said:


> I would agree with that from the perspective of high-flux emitters. However, the 5mm Yugi high-CRI emitters I've used for a couple of mods are the most natural I've seen to date.



I have never tried those Yugi LEDs before, but I registered for 3 lights with 3000k High CRI Yugi LEDs on GB on BLF and I think am going to like them..


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## NutSAK (Aug 28, 2018)

I believe you will as well. I'm using 5x Yugi high CRI 3200K in an Icon Irix II headlamp, and they're pretty incredible.


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## staticx57 (Aug 28, 2018)

Nichia! said:


> I have few cool white lights too, but I don't use them much..



Would you try them if they were Nichia R9080?


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## Nichia! (Aug 28, 2018)

staticx57 said:


> Would you try them if they were Nichia R9080?



Do you mean if they were 6500k nichia led?


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## staticx57 (Aug 28, 2018)

Yes. Have you tried the E21A?


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## NPL (Aug 28, 2018)

ma tumba said:


> Beyond the 5000k optisolis the best thing I beheld was my d4 with nichia 219c/5000. Just pure white with good color rendering. By far superior than 219b 4500 9080.


I have an e21a light and it puts 219c to shame. How did you use the optisolis? In what light?


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## ma tumba (Aug 28, 2018)

NPL said:


> I have an e21a light and it puts 219c to shame. How did you use the optisolis? In what light?



Tana made an aleph engine based on virence board with 3 optisolii. H17f driver provides up to 3amps. I put this le into a mule head and use it with an e1e body


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## iamlucky13 (Aug 28, 2018)

I've got too many other things going on right now, but I'd like at some point in the future to try four Optisolis clustered on a modified XM-L board, in an S2+, with a frosted TIR. I know someone on BLF made this work by tying together the positive and negative contacts, using the thermal pad as ground, and isolating the MCPCB from the flashlight body using electrically non-conductive thermal adhesive.

In the meantime, I've got 9 Yuji's soldered into a Harbor Freight style light waiting for me to have time to finish a simple drop-in light engine for it.


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## jon_slider (Aug 29, 2018)

I hope you guys will post some photos too


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## markr6 (Aug 29, 2018)

Nichia 219C 5000K vs sunlight


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## ven (Aug 29, 2018)

I really like the 219c 5000k mark, its certainly up there with my fav temps. Pretty much most of mine are clean, so no issue with lighter colours(not that it is actually a problem, as enjoying warmer temps at night does warm lighter colours, but i dont care being in a warm lit house). 

But yes , 219c 5000k is a very nice flavour to use......


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## iamlucky13 (Aug 29, 2018)

Jon, what are your hosts for the E21A and 219B emitters, and what kind of optics are they using?


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## jon_slider (Aug 29, 2018)

Utorch S1 Mini with Aspheric lens. I am loving the Aspheric experience, for a HatLamp use at arms length. It is not suitable for any outdoor distances. McGizmo also makes an Aspheric light, called the Sundrop. Aspherics have no hotspot and no throw, but they are outstanding for illuminating things in my hands and close indoor range.

I chose the Utorch for the 0.2 lumen low, but, they have a suboptimal ground, and the medium level is supposedly 100 lumens (67 lumens on my meter actually), which is only good for about 4 hours.

fwiw, the Utorch is on sale for $19











I have a Klarus Mi1C Aluminum, also with Aspheric lens ordered, because the medium is rated 45 lumens, and I want the longer runtime. Although the low is rated 1 lumen, which is more than I need for a minimum level. The Klarus seems to have a more solid ground, I have not heard of issues.

the Klarus, in black ano, can be had for a large discount, using a coupon code

The Klarus has a captive HatClip, on the Utorch I reverse the clip onto the head, not ideal, but works for me. I sometimes use my lights without clips, and simply tuck them under my hat for handsfree use.





Both the Klarus and Utorch include a Usb rechargeable 16340, that I find really convenient. They also have tailmagnets, that I dont care for. The magnets are removable. On Olight S1 Mini there is also a tail magnet, non removable, and the light cannot be opened to modify. The Utorch and Klarus have bezels that unscrew easily.

I have a huge thread here, about the Utorch, with more pics and info.

bear in mind the Utorch is a cheap light and the beam is less than perfect, but I have managed to improve it by painting the bezel black. Aspherics also create a halo around the beam that is not pretty, but usually Im not using that part of the beam.

for me, the beauty of the aspheric, is I can see everything in front of me, whithout having to constantly re aim a hotspot. I dislike the Olight Tir beam for that application, it is considerably smaller, but much better thrower.

and note that the Utorch and Klarus Aspherics are plastic lenses, nothing like the Sapphire lens in the McGizmo, those cost extra 

here is the beam from the E21A, it is really nice imo





the beam from the N219b with black bezel





and the beam from a stock cool white Utorch, needs help, the ring in the middle will go away with a black bezel, but the outer donut is likely to stay, unless the lens gets frosted





here is what frosting will do, the middle beam is frosted





Here is a shot from 4 yards away
not frosted, 2000k





frosted 4500k





btw, I do not recommend the Utorch S1 Mini as a host with the stock driver, the power and heat management is very poor with different than stock LEDs. I was going to compare runtimes, but got sidetracked with this Lumen chart and a 3 minute turbo test


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## staticx57 (Aug 29, 2018)

What if I told you these two lights had the same color temperature, or at least the hotspot of the Spy?






Don't believe me?

Here is the Spy 007





And the PK Knight modded to E21A 6500k R9080


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## jon_slider (Aug 29, 2018)

I would have said the Spy looks cooler, and greener
and the Knight has a nicer tint and a smoother beam

Great Knight mod! .. Love that E21A


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## ven (Aug 29, 2018)

I would believe you staticx, i not only find the same temp, but actual same LED's look different dependent on reflector/optic/s. How the light is collimated (for a right word) effects how it appears to the eye, be it more of a yellow, cream, white etc etc. Or so i have found with certain LED's anyway. 

Love the graphs and super impressed with your driver work staticx, wish i had the patience and knowledge! and equipment and time and and and


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## staticx57 (Aug 30, 2018)

I also think it is important to distinguish between High CRI and Color temp as I have seen some posts showing cool photos and high cri photos with vastly different color temps, that shows very little other than different color temps look different. Cameras are really good at filing in details.

Soooooo, without further ado. Methodology: shoot in dark room. Diffuse all lights with translucent tape of the same kind, shoot with camera RAW, post process to set images at same color temp, turn off tint control.

Here is a 6500k low CRI light (XML unknown bin presumed to be 6500k binned) This emitter also has a strong green tint.






High CRI E21A 6500k R9080





And one final picture to showcase CRI versus color temperature. 3500k versus 6500k. Osram Oslon Square LCW CQAR.CC MP-6Q-MX





Here is the CRI data for the Osram


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## markr6 (Aug 30, 2018)

^ The wood floor is what stands out to me. Even when I think two lights are about the same, the high CRI usually stands out against a wood door or piece of furniture.


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## Nichia! (Aug 30, 2018)

staticx57 said:


> Yes. Have you tried the E21A?



Yes I will try 6500k nichia. And No, I have not tried the E21A. 

So tell me do you like the E21A?? Which one is better for you the 219b 4000k R50 or the E21A??


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## jon_slider (Aug 30, 2018)

staticx57 said:


> I also think it is important to distinguish between High CRI and Color temp



that is one of the hardest things to do, since people look at their lights at different ambient light






I deleted all the other boxes, because imo individual shots of many objects mixed together, is not an ideal way for me to process visual comparisons to other photos

I would rather see 3 of the identical tea boxes, shot simultaneously with 3 different beams, using daylight white balance, so that yes, the differences in color temperature will also be revealed

then it is up to the user to interpret what color temperature their brain operates at, when they use their flashlight

then to really drive the point home about white balance, keep the same 3 lights lined up, but set the white balance to the CCT of the light with the lowest CCT ;-)

some people do well with cool white, if they are using their lights during the day, for example
others prefer warm white, or inbetween, depending on the lighting under which their brain has adapted its white balance to, when they use their flashlight.

often people say things like, "it looks like what I see with my eyes"
I say that too at times
however, what I see with my eyes during the day is at a different Brain White Balance, than at night, when I sit under 3000k incandescent..

imo white balance is the most confounding factor in attempting to communicate with photos online

I applaud your efforts and look forward to learning more with you


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## staticx57 (Aug 30, 2018)

Jon, I'll redo with the same box, I'll have to find the one that has the most color variation.

The first two shots are correct and the white balance is set at 6500k with all tint correction disabled. Hence you see the tint and not compensated.

The last shot is 3500k on the left with the CRI chart you posted and the right side is the 6500k E21A. The white balance is set at 4500k with no tint correction. You posted the 6500k E21A teabox snip against the snip of the 3500k Osram's chart.

As said, the last pic was meant to illustrate the difference between color temp with lights of a similar high CRI. You can notice how widly different colors are despite both being correct (for it's own CCT). The second and third snip of the season teabox are of the same light but at different camera whitebalance-6500k and 4500k

Ill create a follow up to strictly compare CCT not CRI


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## twistedraven (Aug 30, 2018)

Thanks to the wonders of lightroom I can post-process my beam comparison to give the most accurate results to what I see in real life:










Still-life shots:


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## Modernflame (Aug 30, 2018)

Great photos! May I ask about the white balance setting on your camera?


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## twistedraven (Aug 30, 2018)

Daylight, that's why the Jaxman E2 looks the most neutral-white. Granted, my eyes saw it very close to what the pics show.


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## jon_slider (Aug 30, 2018)

staticx57 said:


> The first two shots are correct and the white balance is set at 6500k with all tint correction disabled.



thanks, I edited my post and deleted the 3rd photo
I look forward to your contributions



twistedraven said:


> Daylight, that's why the Jaxman E2 looks the most neutral-white. Granted, my eyes saw it very close to what the pics show.



I also like the Jaxman photo the best
and you make the excellent point that part of the reason is that the white balance of the camera closely matches the Color Temperature of the LED

thanks for your photos, I always appreciate your pics


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## jon_slider (Aug 30, 2018)

staticx57 said:


> The first two shots are correct and the white balance is set at 6500k with all tint correction disabled.



thanks, I edited my post and deleted the 3rd photo
I look forward to your contributions



twistedraven said:


> [FONT=&]
> 
> [/FONT]
> 
> ...





twistedraven said:


> Daylight, that's why the Jaxman E2 looks the most neutral-white. Granted, my eyes saw it very close to what the pics show.



I also like the Jaxman photo the best
and you make the excellent point that part of the reason is that the white balance of the camera closely matches the Color Temperature of the LED

thanks for your photos, I always appreciate your pics

The Convoy photo shows how well cool white emphasizes the green broccoli

Im always chagrinned when people use green things to demonstrate the benefit of Cool White, even Low CRI, when targeting Green Color Rendering.. no suprise that a green tinted LED would make broccoli look green, but, it also makes the banana look green, as well as the counter top.. ;-)

the Rot66 looks good to me, I can recognize the CCT of the LED is warmer than the White Balance of the Camera.

you could illustrate the effect of white balance if you showed the Rot66 shot with Camera white balance set to the Rot66 CCT, then everyone would see how much more Blue the cooler Jaxman and Convoy look by comparison

I still have not figured out how to communicate the importance of the White Balance of the viewers brain, when choosing a the CCT of the light used for their application..

basically, I believe in matching the CCT of the light to the CCT of the environment that the users Brain has adapted its White Balance to. Actually, I like my flashlight to be slightly cooler than the environment, but not more than 1000 kelvin higher.


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## twistedraven (Aug 30, 2018)

Yeah our brain sorta adjusts our white balance according to the dominant lighting at hand, but we'll never see something as warm as an incandescent or cold as diffused blue daylight as pure neutral white. Our white balance biases towards one end or the other-- probably around 4000k to 6000k, but neither above or below. I think the 5600k white balance my camera had for these pictures was pretty accurate to what I saw subjectively, but toning it down to 5000k wouldn't hurt either.

The backdrop for my still lives were an acid-free matboard standing upright-- called ice white (as white as I could find-- even whiter than bright white copy paper), and the base is some acid-free foambaord, that's a little bit warmer compared to the matboard. The ice-white matboard does a really good job at showing the colors of the beams for what they are.


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## Nichia! (Aug 30, 2018)

Does the jaxman uses the nichia C 5600k?


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## twistedraven (Aug 30, 2018)

No, it's a 219B R9050. Jaxman doesn't sell them using these emitters anymore.


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## twistedraven (Sep 19, 2018)




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## markr6 (Sep 20, 2018)

219B all the way. The others look exactly like I'm wearing those yellow shooting glasses.


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## twistedraven (Sep 20, 2018)

The 219B does look pure still next to the two 4000k lights, but it's a matter of white balance on the camera and what your eyes are white balanced to at the time. Sometimes my hand looks fleshy pink with the LH351D, sometimes it looks orangy.


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## Weather-Man (Sep 24, 2018)

Hello, My name is Jack, and I am a Flashaholic!!!

This is my first CPF post . I have a question, and this forum looked like the right place. I am looking for opinions on the XHP35 4000K. I am quite fond of both the XPL 4000K and XHP35 5000K. Tint wise, is it worth looking at an XHP35 4000K?

Thanks


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## twistedraven (Sep 25, 2018)

XHP35 HI are known to have quite good tints. I'm not sure about the HD versions.


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## NPL (Nov 18, 2018)

For those interested, tested some 1/4 and 1/2 minus green Lee filters on my xpl2 4000k high CRI Zebralights and blown away with how much the tint is improved with minimal perceived brightness drop. They looked as good or better than 219c. Something to consider if you love your Zebralight but not so much the tint. Will try take pictures once I install it on one of my lights.


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## Derek Dean (Nov 19, 2018)

Yep, you pop one of those 1/4 or 1/2 minus green filters on there and, bam, cleans it right up. Certainly worth the slight drop in brightness for how nice it looks. Enjoy!


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## Random Dan (Jan 22, 2019)

Just a heads up for those who are not active on the other forum. Virence is a Jetbeam Jet-mu with the ultra high CRI Optisolis LED and also one with the E21A. Both claim impressive color rendering and tint in a wide range of temperatures. I've been eyeing the development for a while so I was ready and bought a 4000K Optisolis and a 4500K E21A. I'm hoping they make good back ups for my 219b HDS.

Linking is frowned upon but if you google search "optisolis e21a jet-mu" you can find more info.


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## Derek Dean (Jan 22, 2019)

Hey Random Dan, I'll be very interested to hear how you like those 2 lights.


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## jorn (Feb 1, 2019)

Tint snobbery. Changing out the awful stock 6000K xh-p 50 in the extra lights for my car.





4000K 92 cri xh-p 50.2





Not so blue anymore. This is gong to be sweet when it's snowing hard.





Moose was easy to spot on my first test run.


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## Modernflame (Feb 1, 2019)

Now why couldn't they have made it that way at the factory? On my way home from work this evening, I saw a car with headlight beams so blue it was downright smurfy. Those things are positively woeful. 

Well done on the tint snobbery.


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## jorn (Feb 1, 2019)

Yeah, they should make some 4000K hi cri for us snobs. 6000K-6500K seems to be the standard for the extra lights. Some few expensive brands have 5000K. A co-worker of mine bought 10000K hid lamps. He thought that more Kelvin means more, and better light. Those looked purple next to my 6000K leds. Thats the only time felt like my 6000K looked kind of ok, and pretty much pure white :laughing: Those 10000K's went into the trash after comparing them with my 6000K. And after some lessons on lumen/lux/kelvin, he ordered some new 4000K.


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## neutralwhite (Feb 1, 2019)

I seen a Malkoff Bodyguard with a 6200k 70CRI, but why cant it be in a higher CRI as to work out colour better in a tactical situation?.
some say you dont need colour when it's a stress situation, but surely the less work the brain does to identify, the better. it's not always about MAX output.
Is it?.


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## Modernflame (Feb 1, 2019)

neutralwhite said:


> I seen a Malkoff Bodyguard with a 6200k 70CRI, but why cant it be in a higher CRI as to work out colour better in a tactical situation?.



Generally the tactical crowd and the tint snobs are two separate groups with little overlapping interest.


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## jorn (Feb 1, 2019)

I'm definitely happy with the added cri. Only 300 meters from home i spotted the first moose. Probably because i was marveling the led swap. But saw 4 more on the 10 min long test drive, and that's more than i usually notice. So far i'm happy with the trade off. Better color temperature, hi cri, for a little less lumen. Since i went from xh-p 50 to xhp 50.2 i guess the drop in output is not that huge. It's almost common to try to wipe dead or injured moose off smashed front windows up here.. Not quite tactical. But it can be life saving spotting those unpredictable moose by the roads so you have time to hit the breaks early, and roll slowly past them. Government put huge amounts of salt on the roads to try to keep it ice free. Moose love to walk on the snow free roads, and chew on the salty trees near the road in the winter. And no predators, except cars, and some few hunters to keep the population in check. That's a scary combination. Too much speed on impact, and they will just break their legs, roll over the hood and smash into the window. So they can end up in your lap inside the car.. Flapping 4 broken baseball bat sized legs around in panic trying to get out  So the idea about early identification of moose, and less back scatter in snow/blizzard was the reason i wanted to try some warmer, hi cri leds in my car. Have already had 2 close calls this winter with those pesky moose coming out of nowhere.. Time will tell if the extra cri will help me spot more of those huge critters.


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## archimedes (Feb 27, 2019)

Random Dan said:


> .... Virence is a Jetbeam Jet-mu with the ultra high CRI Optisolis LED and also one with the E21A. Both claim impressive color rendering and tint in a wide range of temperatures. I've been eyeing the development for a while so I was ready and bought a 4000K Optisolis and a 4500K E21A. I'm hoping they make good back ups for my 219b HDS....



Giving this a bump for discussing the Jetusolis / Optisolis .... Anyone else with these who want to share their thoughts ?

I recently received this, in both the 4000K (P10) and 5000K (P9) versions. Liking the 4000K enough to bump out my UniVex with XP-G (R4 5B) from EDC keyring duty for now.

The 5000K appears frosty to me, with outstanding color rendering, but still a little "harsh" or stark, in some sense.

The 4000K, on the other hand, does not seem nearly as warm as others I have with that rating. Just the slightest bit of creamy ecru warmth to the tint, especially outdoors at night.

Interested to hear others thoughts on these emitters, and also the E21A R9080 for that matter.


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## twistedraven (Feb 27, 2019)

I have a 5000k Jetusolis. It's a little north of 5000k subjectively, and a little green. Maukka's measurements confirm this at 5300k and +.020 accordingly.

Even without a minus green filter, it renders colors stupidly good, but I still think it looks slightly green next to midday sunlight, even though objectively, sunlight is also above the BBL. I haven't put a minus 1/8th or minus 1/4th green filter on it yet.

The 4000k SST20 with minus 1/4th green is still my favorite color rendering light to look at, closely followed by the famous 219B SW45K R9080.


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## NPL (Feb 27, 2019)

I have the jetue21a in 4500k and love it. Color rendering is amazing and pretty sure it's a little below BBL which I prefer. No green. Just ordered a 3000k to have a balance of neutral white and warm white.


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## neutralwhite (Feb 27, 2019)

JetU in 4k and Opto in 6500k. Amazing Optosolis. 



NPL said:


> I have the jetue21a in 4500k and love it. Color rendering is amazing and pretty sure it's a little below BBL which I prefer. No green. Just ordered a 3000k to have a balance of neutral white and warm white.


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## Random Dan (Feb 27, 2019)

Thanks for the reminder Archimedes. I had forgotten to update this thread.

I ordered a 4000K Jetusolis and a 4500K JetuE21A.

The Jetusolis looks cooler to me, maybe more like 4750K by comparison to other lights. Comparing side by side against a map with a lot of colors mixed together the Optisolis is impressive: it renders reds and browns as well as a 219B sw45 r9080 (subjectively) but also makes blues and purples look much more vivid.

The E21A is also quite impressive, but I prefer the floody optic on the Jetusolis as the spot optics causes some tint shift at the edges. I was sent extra optics so I could do some swapping but I've not gotten around to it yet.

Overall I would say they are excellent keychain lights for a tint snob.


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## ma tumba (Feb 28, 2019)

I just got the 3000k e21a version. It is fact that there is a tint shift with either tir, or aspheric optics. But in 3000k lights I actually like this shift. Somehow it looks natural. Also the beam center is a bit cooler as a consequence and this improves color rendering. I would not tolerate ANY tint shift at higher cct.

I also dig the stock tir. It has right mix of a medium sized round hot spot and VERY wide and faint spill. 

Overal, nearly ideal light for the night


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## vadimax (Feb 28, 2019)

BTW, have you seen Nokia 7 Plus LED light? Its beautiful creamy tint reminded me professional lamps used by construction wall painters. I might be totally wrong, but it made me to think about 98 CRI...


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## jon_slider (Feb 28, 2019)

twistedraven said:


> I have a 5000k Jetusolis. It's a little north of 5000k subjectively, and a little green. Maukka's measurements confirm this at 5300k and +.020 accordingly.
> 
> Even without a minus green filter, it renders colors stupidly good, but I still think it looks slightly green next to midday sunlight, even though objectively, sunlight is also above the BBL. I haven't put a minus 1/8th or minus 1/4th green filter on it yet.
> 
> *The 4000k SST20 with minus 1/4th green is still my favorite color rendering light to look at, closely followed by the famous 219B SW45K R9080.*



thanks for your comments on LEDs and Lee filters, very helpful

regarding the 4000k SST20 vs the sw45k

IF both LEDs were to be installed into the same light, with same driver etc
which one would be brighter, by what percent
and after correcting the SST20 w a 1/4 minus green, which drops lumens by 18 percent
which LED would be brighter, and which would have the highest CRI R9? 

reason I ask, is Im getting the impression that an unfiltered sw45k will outperform a filtered anything else
thoughts?

also congrats on your Optisolis!

I have not tried those, I do love the two E21a LEDs I have, one 2000k in a mod by Clemence to my Utorch S1 Mini, and one 3000k that comes stock in the cute little Folomov C1



Random Dan said:


> the Optisolis is impressive: it renders reds and browns as well as a 219B sw45 r9080 (subjectively) but also makes blues and purples look much more vivid.
> 
> The E21A is also quite impressive, but I prefer the floody optic on the Jetusolis



Thanks for the great info
fwiw, you could put a floody optic on the E21a
I still appreciate your comments on the color quality of the Optisolis

imo, the E21a is a better choice at 4000k and below, and for times when a clear optic is used, while the Optisolis is better above 4000k (as long as it is used with a diffusing optic)

Here is my 2000k E21a behind a clear aspheric lens.. I dont see any tint shift issue at all 
Also my 3000k E21a behind clear flat glass, no tint shift either.. 






its the Optisolis that has tint shift issues.. that is the one that needs diffusion...

regarding what I consider to be tint shift, look at the E01 in the above pic, purple center, green edge
by contrast, see the Yuji LED in the following photo, far right.. no tint shift:





also this following pic.. see the tint changes between center, to green corona to violet spill, thats real tint shift!:


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## twistedraven (Feb 28, 2019)

jon_slider said:


> thanks for your comments on LEDs and Lee filters, very helpful
> 
> regarding the 4000k SST20 vs the sw45k
> 
> ...



I have both emitters in ROT66. Even with the filter, the SST20 is still subjectively slightly brighter, and definitely has a more intense hotspot, than the 219B.

Even without a minus green filter, the SST20 has a higher R9 than the 219B SW45k R9080.


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## jon_slider (Feb 28, 2019)

twistedraven said:


> Even without a minus green filter, the SST20 has a higher R9 than the 219B SW45k R9080.



You got my attention now! 
More R9, more better
Thanks!


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## staticx57 (Feb 28, 2019)

Is your interest just to get the highest R9? Optisolis has a much higher CRI across the board. Focus on the bottom part of Maukkas charts where he shows the 40 odd samples. The 219B just does not compete even if the R9 is nearly identical.


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## phosphor22 (Mar 1, 2019)

staticx57 said:


> Is your interest just to get the highest R9? Optisolis has a much higher CRI across the board. Focus on the bottom part of Maukkas charts where he shows the 40 odd samples. The 219B just does not compete even if the R9 is nearly identical.



I recently received the Jetusolis 3500K...IMO, its the most beautiful beam/tint I have seen to date. Should state that I also almost always prefer lights within a 3200K-4000K range. 

I keep turning it on just to stare at stuff -- its a floody beam -- comes with a 30º optic.
Of course it is ideal for indoors, etc. when one doesn't need a bunch of light, but I find the three modes to be quite enough for just about all my indoor wanderings.


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## twistedraven (Mar 1, 2019)

jon_slider said:


> You got my attention now!
> More R9, more better
> Thanks!




Just remember that R9 isn't everything. The R1-R14 numbers are against and ideal hypothetical black body illuminant at a same given color temperature. So, an Optisolis at 6500k has an R9 at 99 (highest I've seen), but it's being compared against a black body radiator at 6500k as well, and naturally, something at 6500k won't have as much red in its spectrum as a black body radiator at say, 4000k or lower. So something with an R9 of 90, but at 4000k, will look more rosy and pop reds more than something with an R9 of 100 at 6000k.

High R9 value is separate from the tint as well of course. Something that looks greenish can have a higher R9 than something that's pinkish. Example-- Optisolis vs a Nichia R9080, or SST20 vs Nichia R9080. How green the SST20 can look depends on which tint bin it's sourced from. Fireflies sources 4000k varients that are pretty close to BBL, but I still find they need a little extra help once under optics and the ar glass. the 3000k varients sourced from intl electronics for the D4S are on the pinkish side, and I find them just fine on their own.


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## jon_slider (Mar 1, 2019)

staticx57 said:


> Is your interest just to get the highest R9? Optisolis has a much higher CRI across the board.



not "just", also..
the issue with the Optisolis is that it requires diffusion to blend the tint shift across the beam
I am not in a diffusion stage of my optics explorations
but, IF I did fell OK about diffusion optics, then yes, Optisolis would be a candidate
otoh, for a beam coming out of a reflector with a clear lens, I dont want LEDs that have tint shift across the beam



twistedraven said:


> Just remember that R9 isn't everything.
> ...
> How green the SST20 can look depends on which tint bin it's sourced from.



excellent points, thanks for sharing your experience and impressions

imo the Optisolis is a great choice for the higher CCTs, above 4000k, the E21a is great below 4500k, based on the R9 values

I really value and appreciate your comments regarding the SST20 being more balance in tint, at the lower CCTs

I find different LEDs have different advantages, based on what CCT they have the most R9 and least green tint

and I agree R9 and tint are separate factors..

thank you both for helping point out the many distinctions involved in selecting an LED, including the effect of AR coatings and reflectors on what may theoretically be a very neutral tinted LED.

The XP-G3 is another LED that can measure below the BBL on an intergrating sphere, and that can work best with a diffusion optioc that blends the tint shift that, the XP-G3 has, across its beam.


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## iamlucky13 (Mar 4, 2019)

twistedraven said:


> I have a 5000k Jetusolis. It's a little north of 5000k subjectively, and a little green. Maukka's measurements confirm this at 5300k and +.020 accordingly.
> 
> Even without a minus green filter, it renders colors stupidly good, but I still think it looks slightly green next to midday sunlight, even though objectively, sunlight is also above the BBL. I haven't put a minus 1/8th or minus 1/4th green filter on it yet.
> 
> The 4000k SST20 with minus 1/4th green is still my favorite color rendering light to look at, closely followed by the famous 219B SW45K R9080.



At 5000K and above, the target is one of the daylight standard illuminants, which are based on specific lighting conditions, and as you note, above the BBL. There's going to be a manufacturing tolerance, so some will be more or less green. Plus, real daylight varies from the reference conditions, depending sun angle, how much dust is in the air, etc.

Below 5000K, the target is the blackbody locus. Maukka's testing showed the warmer Optisoli are indeed really close to the BBL.

The E21A seems to generally be at or below the BBL, which I think was part of the reason Clemence said he expected the E21A to be the most popular version. The other reason was the better efficiency.

I haven't ordered an Optisolis yet, because I'm planning several projects, and want to place just one order. I am eager, however, to see one of the best light sources available. Regardless of the slight green tint in the higher CCT's, the spectral curve is a really excellent approximation of the reference target.

The colored E17A LED's Clemence is offering sound rather interesting, too. The red, green, and amber versions are all phosphor converted, so they're not monochromatic like most color LED's. My best guess is they'll be more like filtered incandescent Christmas lights, rather than LED Christmas lights, which I've always found a bit sterile looking.


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## guthrie (Mar 9, 2019)

I just logged in to say that my girlfriend's mother, who is quite aged, really liked my Fireflies rot66 with the Nichia LED's. She doesn't know it, but she is a tint snob...


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## Modernflame (Mar 24, 2019)

My tint snobbery has made its next evolutionary leap. I began my LED flashlight journey with cool white for the lumen count. Not long after that, I developed a taste for neutral tints. Then came the high CRI nichia obession.

Oddly, things have come full circle. I love high CRI emitters so much that standard neutral LEDs seem lackluster, as they superimpose yellow/green. I no longer find this preferable to the blue/green of low CRI cool white.

In conclusion, if it's not high CRI, then I might as well opt for the high lumen count of the cool white variety.


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## NPL (Mar 24, 2019)

You should try the Nichia e21a in 4500k or 5000k. No green or yellow, just perfect with very high CRI!


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## staticx57 (Mar 25, 2019)

Or even try the E21A in 6500k and really blow your mind.


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## Modernflame (Mar 25, 2019)

Can you recommend a flashlight with the Nichia E21A?


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## NPL (Mar 25, 2019)

I don't know of any stock lights that use that LED. You can buy the LEDs on mcpcb at Virence.com and then mod an existing light. I have it in an Armytek Tiara.


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## archimedes (Mar 25, 2019)

Modernflame said:


> Can you recommend a flashlight with the Nichia E21A?





NPL said:


> I don't know of any stock lights that use that LED. You can buy the LEDs on mcpcb at Virence.com and then mod an existing light. I have it in an Armytek Tiara.



I think Virence had JetuE21A available at one point, although they may have sold out. They were available when I got my Jetusolis ( jetusolii? ) and I sort of wish I'd tried one.

I am quite pleased with (especially) the 4000K Optisolis emitter, however.


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## Johnnyh (Mar 25, 2019)

archimedes said:


> I think Virence had JetuE21A available at one point, although they may have sold out. They were available when I got my Jetusolis ( jetusolii? ) and I sort of wish I'd tried one.
> 
> I am quite pleased with (especially) the 4000K Optisolis emitter, however.



Same here, have an 4k Jetusolis on the way from Virence. The claimed 96 CRI piqued my interest so I bit. When I ordered there was a e21a offered but I didn’t get it...probably should have from what I hear. They are both sold out.


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## archimedes (Mar 25, 2019)

I think the CRI is ~ 97 (3000K) - 99 (5000K)

I can't seem to find the 4000K rating at the moment, but IIRC it was ~ 99

EDIT - correction, 4000K Optisolis CRI was 98 (but still slightly prefer it over the 5000K CRI 99)


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## jon_slider (Mar 25, 2019)

Im looking forward to his Jetbeam RRT-01 build

meanwhile here is some food for thought, clips of pics from Clemences site


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## archimedes (Mar 25, 2019)

jon_slider said:


> Im looking forward to his Jetbeam RRT-01 build


Which emitter ?


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## jon_slider (Mar 25, 2019)

archimedes said:


> Which emitter ?



I believe the plan is to do a test build with E21a.. 
I dont think he plans to stock inventory of those lights, rather to build a kit.

If I had a choice between E21a and Optisolis (if Clemence offers both like in the JetU)
I prefer the E21a at Warm CCT
and Optisolis for Cool CCT

For those who missed his stocked inventory of JetU, It might be worth asking him if he is willing to modify a JetU for you, if you provide the light. I would suggest ordering it to be shipped directly to him for modding. 

Same for the RRT-01, once he knows if the light will work with his LEDs and boards, he might be willing to receive a light to mod.


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## archimedes (Mar 25, 2019)

I thought that the Optisolis couldn't be run at high current though ?


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## jon_slider (Mar 25, 2019)

archimedes said:


> I thought that the Optisolis couldn't be run at high current though ?



as a single LED, also true for the E21a I think

however, he has boards that use more than one LED:

4x E21a:





4x Optisolis:


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## archimedes (Mar 25, 2019)

Yep, I would be wanting an Optisolis 4000K quad 

Isn't each one of those a dual-die ?


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## staticx57 (Mar 26, 2019)

archimedes said:


> Yep, I would be wanting an Optisolis 4000K quad
> 
> Isn't each one of those a dual-die ?



Yep, they have two dies in parallel. Although I would hesitate to call them dies as they share phosphor, more similar to the old n083b than say an xhp50.

You can do some pretty cool things with them.


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## jon_slider (Mar 26, 2019)

archimedes said:


> Isn't each one of those a dual-die ?



Your question goes over my head.

I posted those boards by looking at his site.
I can send you a link if you pm me ;-)

else
I suggest you contact Clemence for the most accurate answers to your questions.. Im not really versed in the complexities you are asking about.


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## staticx57 (Mar 26, 2019)

jon_slider said:


> Your question goes over my head.
> 
> I posted those boards by looking at his site.
> I can send you a link if you pm me ;-)
> ...


The die is the part of the LED that does the emitting. Desperate from say the dome, solder pad, bond wires, etc


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## archimedes (Mar 26, 2019)

Thanks, I hope these emitters start to get used more widely.


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## jon_slider (Mar 26, 2019)

staticx57 said:


> You can do some pretty cool things with them.



thanks for the help with the technical details

I read a post about a CW JetU optisolis having green tint, above the BBL, and that they require diffusion to blend the tint..

many questions
is that what your white reflector is doing.. blending the tint shift?
what CCT did you choose?

got beamshots? ;-)


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## staticx57 (Mar 26, 2019)

These are quite a bit older than those in that light. These are from Clemence's first sample run from a year ago. They are 3000k as well. I do not notice a tint shift at all with these. Here is a picture with them on the bare board, well not so much of the light but the light they produce.


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## jon_slider (Mar 26, 2019)

Lovely!
thanks for the visuals


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## ven (Mar 26, 2019)

Very nice staticx, that certainly covers the want and need bit


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## likethevegetable (Mar 27, 2019)

Slightly off topic, but do any Canadians here have any LEE Zircon Filters (Minus Green) that they'd be willing to sell/ship? I've been trying to source some but shipping is prohibitively expensive for one light...


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## NPL (Mar 27, 2019)

Send me a pm with what you are looking to get.


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## likethevegetable (Mar 27, 2019)

NPL said:


> Send me a pm with what you are looking to get.



Thank you for the reply. I actually got a hold of a lighting supplier that will send me a sample swatch booklet from LEE. I'll definitely contact you if the booklet doesn't have what I'm looking for. What filters do you recommend? I'm looking to clean up my SC600w IV Plus.


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## NPL (Mar 27, 2019)

I have the swatchbook too, but those are much thinner and not sure how they will endure compared to the Zircon series. You will have many good options though. I would recommend something like the half minus green from the search book. You will take about a 25% hit in brightness but the beam afterwards is absolutely beautiful.


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## likethevegetable (Mar 27, 2019)

Sent a PM. I'll probably want a Zircon filter anyway.


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## wicky998 (Jan 1, 2020)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

wow idk how i passed over this thread.. 

my apologies to the moderators and the op.

this is what i was looking for.


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## lion504 (Jan 1, 2020)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

@wicky

Answering your questions over here:


do you have a favorite tint?
Yes, 4500k
will you not buy a specific light because it may not have the tint you want?
yep, I need counseling though

do you use diffferent tints for different circumstances? ie. inside/outside, winter/summer?
I was using my high noon only during the daytime, and then I realized that was too extreme even for me... I have to admit it was a little awkward explaining to my wife that I had a daytime flashlight and a nighttime flashlight 😳

if so what temp? why? and whats your favorite light that uses it?
Definitely my HDS with the SW45k, aka F89’s Holy Grail, aka F89HG. I prefer the F89HG moniker because I feel like I’m crediting F89 with the win... (F89 is the CPF member who convinced HDS to offer that emitter)
close second is a (rare?) Malkoff M61W XPG at 4500k that hron61 sold me. Maybe not rare, but it’s awesome! Thanks hron!!!


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## wicky998 (Jan 2, 2020)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



lion504 said:


> @wicky
> 
> Answering your questions over here:
> 
> ...



thanks lion! and nice!

gonna have to check out that hds


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## bykfixer (Jan 2, 2020)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

I have a favorite tint Wicky: 
Un-dark

The only tint I don't like is shopping mall parking lot type that makes it so you can't find your car because it looks a different color. CRI gets a negative score. Other than that any is ok with me. 

I do prefer whiter tints outdoors when looking at distant objects. My eyes need less time to ID friend or foe in those cases. For recreation a neutral of 4500-5500 is preferred. I grew up with light bulb'd lights so those I'm used to.

To my eyes tint means less than intensity. Too much intensity is what bothers my eyes.

My favorite daily carry uses 6200 kelvin with a water bottle cap over the end to diffuse light when intensity is the issue. Hi/me/lo settings on a 1 cell platform. The PKDL PR-1. My favorite LED flashlight in general is a SureFire G2x Pro that has a cool/neutral tint. My all around favorite is a 2C light bulb'd generic light modeled after a Bright Star of long ago. Again, intensity of the beam suits my brain. A PR2 bulb and shallow reflector cause a nice spot to cast the 8 or so lumens forward about 25-30 feet with enough spill to avoid pitfalls or trip over raised cracks in a sidewalk. Nice, clean parts means efficient enough current to make the PR2 glow a nice bright tint. Number? No idea. Perhaps 3000k.


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## lion504 (Jan 2, 2020)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



wicky998 said:


> gonna have to check out that hds



The F89HG emitter (which had a CRI of 95) is out of stock at HDS. But a couple have popped up on WTS. Keep an eye peeled. 

Another rare but highly desirable (for some) emitter was the XP-G 3700k Hi CRI. I’ve been trying to find one of those for a while now.


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## jon_slider (Jan 2, 2020)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

I like the Nichia E21a 3500k 9080 in the evening.





the sw45k is still my preferred daytime EDC

Im a Tint Snob, the XP-G3 makes me laugh (the wood is not green, and the LED is not High CRI)

I laugh at the XM-L too ;-)


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## ScubaSnyder (Jan 9, 2020)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

Nichia 219 4000k
XP-L (HI)
Osram KW CSLNN1 love this emitter but a little on the high side for color.

I also like the Samsung 351D.

I have several new lights but it's hard to justify a favorite because the quantity of lights I own. I own more with these 2 emitters Nichia and XP-L and I tend to favor them.


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## NPL (Jan 21, 2020)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

The Samsung 351D is a great emitter, I have it in my Zebralight SC64c LE. Its does cast a little green but its very minimal and find it better than Nichia 219C.

My favourite LED for perfect tint and super high CRI is the Nichia e21a and e17a. There's actually a groupbuy on the other forum for the Skilhunt H04 RC with those LED's with CRI 90 with R9 80+. Tempted to order a few CCT flavours. I have that setup in a custom Armytek Tiara and its my most used light.


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## jon_slider (Jan 21, 2020)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*



NPL said:


> The Samsung 351D... does cast a little green



I agree the 351d is greener





in the above lumen results, I tested each light using the same battery. But the drivers are not the same. So the only conclusion you can draw from the lumen levels, is that the Manker E02 with 219c is the brightest, but not necessarily only because of the LED.

I suggest a more thorough comparison would be to find a test of each LED showing the DUV, CRI Ra, and CRI R9... I believe you would find that the 219b has lower DUV and higher R9 than the others, and it IS less bright overall... (more CRI R9, comes with less green lumens)

fwiw, sunlight is greener than incandescent
I enjoy the 351d during the day, when my brain is white balanced to sunlight.

extra credit, open book question
What is the DUV of Sunlight?


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## staticx57 (Jan 21, 2020)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

Noon Day Sun as a positive Duv


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## LED Monkey (Jan 21, 2020)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

Is just me or are some leds with higher color temps (above 5000k) getting better a color rendering like over 80cri?
This is a good thing as leds progress. Even cool whites have a better appearance to the light nowadays.


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## staticx57 (Jan 22, 2020)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

It isn't just you. Higher color temp LEDs with High CRI are readily available but still somewhat in the realm of DIY or speciality products. There are cool temp LEDs such as 5000k+ hitting 99 CRI. In general even production flashlights hover around 70+ when not explicitly high CRI.


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## jon_slider (Feb 26, 2020)

*Re: The Tint Snob Thread .*

the effect of white balance on the perception of color and tint

photos by iPhone, auto white balance:
same LEDs, totally different apparent color

8am ambient daylight





8pm ambient incandescent and warm LED


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## bigburly912 (Feb 26, 2020)

Is that picture taken in the same spot? The background is noticeably lighter in the first photos than in the second which would also change your perception of color.


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## jon_slider (Feb 26, 2020)

yes same spot, 12 hours apart

one is during 8Am daylight (about 5600k)
the other is during 8Pm house lights (about 2500k)

yes, that completely changes the color of the paper, and the beams
because of the difference in ambient light color temperature

notice for example any one beam under both conditions
say the sw45k (4500k 219b), it looks pink compared to daylight, but looks blue compared to warm white

similarly the 3500k almost looks white compared to warm white, but looks rather orange compared to daylight

make sense?

the difference in ambient light color temperature alters the white balance of my brain
so an LED I like during the day, may not be my first pick in the evening

for example, these two lights





during the day, I like the 4500k LED "better", because it looks "whiter" (closer to the CCT of the ambient light)

at night, my Color Temperature preference changes to warmer, and then the light that looks yellow, does not, instead it looks closest to "white".

white is not always the same color temperature


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