# Osram 64458 on 16 cells



## JimmyM (Dec 28, 2006)

I had a 65W IRC running on 15 1/2D NiMH cells but blew the hotdriver. I had orderd a few 64458s to mess with (90W, 12V, 4000 hours). So i pulled the switch from my Mag138 and swapped out the burned HD.
I figured, what the heck. The worst that can happen is I instaflash a bulb.
So I dismantled the switch and cleaned and slightly modded an already modded switch. OK the moment of truth. Hit the switch and lit the '458. No pop! Wow is this sucker bright. My DMM showed 18 volts at startup which began to sag to 17.8, 17.7. I hadn't charged in a while. So I charged up the pack and ran it again. No flash. The DMM showed 19+ volts at start up then it sagged slowly to about 18V and held pretty steady. OK. Cool. So I figured, alright let's try a 16th cell. A fresh 16 cell pack lit the '458 and held pretty steady at 19.3 volts.
AWRs hotrater rerates the '458 to +175W at 19 volts. Now all I need to do is build a 16 cell pack (3x5+1) out of Elite1500s to fit a tri-bored 3D I have.


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## cnjl3 (Dec 28, 2006)

Yikes! 
You better sell me your PIR before it goes up in flames, up in smoke, charred, ashes, memories, dust etc....
I'm offering to buy it for your own good


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## JimmyM (Dec 28, 2006)

cnjl3 said:


> Yikes!
> You better sell me your PIR before it goes up in flames, up in smoke, charred, ashes, dust etc....


 
Gee. Maybe you're right. Thanks for having the best interests of my poor PIR in mind. You're a prince. 

Seriously, though. The PIR will probably still keeps it's home in my Mag625 when it goes "Lithium Edition".
The '458 will end up in a 3D tri-bored host run on Elite1500s. At that power level it gets hot so quickly that a lot of runtime is useless. I should have bought a couple more HAIII 3Ds with tri-boring.


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## Icebreak (Dec 28, 2006)

Was your HotDriver designed and configured to handle the 65W IRC?

19.3V into a 64458 is massive. It's amazing what some of these lamps I hear about from the 100+ watt club can handle. I'll bet it's _very_ white. Thanks for telling us about it.


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## JimmyM (Dec 28, 2006)

Icebreak said:


> Was your HotDriver designed and configured to handle the 65W IRC?
> 
> 19.3V into a 64458 is massive. It's amazing what some of these lamps I hear about from the 100+ watt club can handle. I'll bet it's _very_ white. Thanks for telling us about it.


 
I requested it from Andrew to be set up for the 65W IRC. I've contacted him about it and I'll be sending it in for autopsy. It did make a strange stink though. I definitely let the smoke out. Can't we make these things run on better smelling smoke? 

It's only rated at something like 1800 lumens. When overdriven at 19.2V it re-rates to 186W and 9300 lumens.

The 54255 is a 24V/250W rated at 9000 lumens. Running on 25 Elite1500s that works out to 1.15v x 25 = 28.75v. At that kind of overdrive it works out to 330W/17000 lm. Good LORD. I'd have to have a 4D tri-bored though.


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## Icebreak (Dec 28, 2006)

Sounds like fun.


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## cnjl3 (Dec 28, 2006)

JimmyM said:


> It did make a strange stink though. I definitely let the smoke out.


 
You fried the FET! I did that on my '138 M*G 100 HD
It smelled really bad and i couldnt believe that i went ahead and took another whiff? 
I have only run the 25 and 35watt IRC bulbs on my IRC HD because so far its been enough light

I do have the 50 and the 65watt IRC bulbs but i guess i am saving them for a rainy day? yeah that sounds good a "cold' wet rainy day to help with the cooling.


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## cy (Dec 29, 2006)

hmm... fried ?


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## JimmyM (Dec 29, 2006)

cnjl3 said:


> You fried the FET! I did that on my '138 M*G 100 HD
> It smelled really bad and i couldnt believe that i went ahead and took another whiff?
> I have only run the 25 and 35watt IRC bulbs on my IRC HD because so far its been enough light
> 
> I do have the 50 and the 65watt IRC bulbs but i guess i am saving them for a rainy day? yeah that sounds good a "cold' wet rainy day to help with the cooling.


 
Mmm Hmm. Fried.

Try it direct drive. I'm using 4Ah 1/2Ds, they certainly provide the amps. 15 1/2Ds don't pop the IRC 65. What's the worst that can happen?
Well. I suppose the worst thing that could happen is that it blows the bulb and you get glass in your eyes while a piece of white hot filament flies into your fireworks and sweaty dynamite collection.


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## cnjl3 (Dec 31, 2006)

I dont have 15 1/2D's but i do have a 15 CBP 2500A size battery pack that should do the trick- I will try my 65watt IRC DirectDrive tonight and see what happens


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## JimmyM (Dec 31, 2006)

cnjl3 said:


> I dont have 15 1/2D's but i do have a 15 CBP 2500A size battery pack that should do the trick- I will try my 65watt IRC DirectDrive tonight and see what happens


That's the way to ring in the New Year! I'm going to try 17 cells as soon as I charge up a pile of them. If that thing will hold 20.2 volts that re-rates to 201 WATTS! Mmmmmm. Cant' wait.

Let me know how it goes.

UPDATE: It held 20.2 volts (briefly) at the pins then sagged quickly to 20.1, 20.0, then the lead wires started to smoke. Those batteries weren't really well charged. My longest charging holder in only 16 cells. I've got to build a longer one now.
Bulb didn't pop. I soooooooo have to build a tri-bore for 18 Elite1500s.

Another update: OK ran 17 1/2Ds fresh off the charger. It was real bright for about 1/2 second then burned out. I'm resting the cells now and will try another fresh '458 in a few hours. Maybe 16 is just about it.
(It was, in fact, 18 cells. Not 17)


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## LuxLuthor (May 14, 2007)

As far as I know, AWR never made a reliable hot driver that could handle these 75W-100W bulbs with this kind of surge peak voltage/current spikes....and now he's pretty much vamoosed.


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## JimmyM (May 14, 2007)

Yeah. That poor MOSFET just can't holdback that much voltage at the startup current draw. It goes . Like mine did. It's currently "in the shop".
I'm hoping to have a solution for that, but time is hard to come by.



LuxLuthor said:


> As far as I know, AWR never made a reliable hot driver that could handle these 75W-100W bulbs with this kind of surge peak voltage/current spikes....and now he's pretty much vamoosed.


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## LuxLuthor (May 14, 2007)

Is it hard to make/buy/install a FET that blocks the surge current startup spike to maybe supplement a HD that can't cut the mustard?


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## JimmyM (May 14, 2007)

Not necessarily hard, it just takes some time and testing. I've got a design for a softstarting PWM unit. It won't regulate. It will just ramp up duty cycle until a preset point. could be 50-100%, but it won't regulate voltage. It'll just softstart.
So, if your bulb will run on 22 volts if you ease up on it and you have a 22 volt pack, then this is the unit for you. You can limit the duty cycle, so you will end up with a percentage of pack voltage.
Set it to 50% and it will ramp up the duty cycle to 50% then stop. I just need some time to get some parts to fiddle with. My design would be good for 12-40 volts. Perfect for the big incans.



LuxLuthor said:


> Is it hard to make/buy/install a FET that blocks the surge current startup spike to maybe supplement a HD that can't cut the mustard?


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## BigusLightus (May 15, 2007)

JimmyM,

Regarding your first post, what are you fitting your 15 1/2 D cells into? I can only fit 10 into my 6D mag.

Thanks


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## Icebreak (May 15, 2007)

Oh now that's verrrrrrry interesting. I ordered some more tuits a while back. When they come in I'll send you a few. They are the round ones, BTW.


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## LuxLuthor (May 15, 2007)

Jimmy,

Let me put these in bullets so you can address them easier.

I understand what you are saying about blocking the spike startup voltage (aka "soft starting"), and that it won't regulate the voltage the way AWR's did...but it sounds like there is a type of "peak regulation" by limiting the % of pack voltage reaching the bulb..but not keeping a set delivered voltage and auto-shutoff like AWR.

If it essentially puts a cap on max delivered voltage, and that is adjustable, why would you also need the 50-100% feature?

This would still resolve the entire instaflash issue of the battery voltage being too hot off the charger if my understanding is correct...and if you know the max bulb voltage desired.

I'm not sure what "duty cycle" means, nor how that applies to to what sounds like a device that puts a cap on the amount of voltage that can EVER be delivered to the bulb from a battery pack.

Would this "voltage cap" of max delivered bulb voltage be user adjustable with a DMM and rotation type setting that AWR had?

Another question...how/where would this be installed? (Not sure how large, or if it needs to be below the bulb the way AWR had his HD)

As the voltage sags with battery use, there is no effect from this since the voltage is remaining below the "max voltage cap" setting, correct?
While this is not an AWR Hot Driver, this is still a really useful and great addition to the community. 



JimmyM said:


> Not necessarily hard, it just takes some time and testing. I've got a design for a softstarting PWM unit. It won't regulate. It will just ramp up duty cycle until a preset point. could be 50-100%, but it won't regulate voltage. It'll just softstart.
> So, if your bulb will run on 22 volts if you ease up on it and you have a 22 volt pack, then this is the unit for you. You can limit the duty cycle, so you will end up with a percentage of pack voltage.
> Set it to 50% and it will ramp up the duty cycle to 50% then stop. I just need some time to get some parts to fiddle with. My design would be good for 12-40 volts. Perfect for the big incans.


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## JimmyM (May 15, 2007)

I had bought body extensions. The 17 cell light was 11D long.



BigusLightus said:


> JimmyM,
> 
> Regarding your first post, what are you fitting your 15 1/2 D cells into? I can only fit 10 into my 6D mag.
> 
> Thanks


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## JimmyM (May 15, 2007)

LuxLuthor said:


> I understand what you are saying about blocking the spike startup voltage (aka "soft starting"), and that it won't regulate the voltage the way AWR's did...but it sounds like there is a type of "peak regulation" by limiting the % of pack voltage reaching the bulb..but not keeping a set delivered voltage and auto-shutoff like AWR.


The PWM-SS is ignorant of voltage. It would only stop increasing duty cycle at a certain point.


LuxLuthor said:


> If it essentially puts a cap on max delivered voltage, and that is adjustable, why would you also need the 50-100% feature?


The 50-100% thing IS the adjustability.


LuxLuthor said:


> This would still resolve the entire instaflash issue of the battery voltage being too hot off the charger if my understanding is correct...and if you know the max bulb voltage desired.


Sort of... If the pack is 24 volts off the charger and you cap the duty cycle at 90% the bulb will only get 90% Vbat no matter what Vbat is. Initially it will get 21.6V (90% of 24), but as the pack discharges the PWM-SS is still set at 90%. So at Vbat of 20V, the bulb will only get 18V (90% of 20).


LuxLuthor said:


> I'm not sure what "duty cycle" means, nor how that applies to to what sounds like a device that puts a cap on the amount of voltage that can EVER be delivered to the bulb from a battery pack.


Duty Cysle is the key to PWM. The PWM-SS turns the MOSFET completely ON or completely OFF many times per second. If it is running at 10kHz, then it switches on and off 10,000 times per second. Every time it turns on, it remains ON for a certain percentage of time between clock pulses. If it remains ON too long between pulses, it just stays ON. That's 100% duty cycle. Since the MOSFET is always ON or OFF, it never acts like a resistor like AWRs. In AWRs case, the MOSFET has to dissipate that additional energy as heat. If it's too much...


LuxLuthor said:


> Would this "voltage cap" of max delivered bulb voltage be user adjustable with a DMM and rotation type setting that AWR had?


Since it doesn't monitor voltage, it can't cap voltage. It will only cap Duty Cycle.


LuxLuthor said:


> Another question...how/where would this be installed? (Not sure how large, or if it needs to be below the bulb the way AWR had his HD)


This would be installed in the exact place of AWRs hotdriver. Right under a KIU aluminum socket base.


LuxLuthor said:


> As the voltage sags with battery use, there is no effect from this since the voltage is remaining below the "max voltage cap" setting, correct?


No, the output voltage would sag as well. If it would hold voltage, it would be a regulator. There's a design change to allow this, but it's more complicated. I'll start with just the plain PWM softstarter, then look at a regulating version. I must crawl before I can walk.


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## JimmyM (May 15, 2007)

Whats a "tuit"?


Icebreak said:


> Oh now that's verrrrrrry interesting. I ordered some more tuits a while back. When they come in I'll send you a few. They are the round ones, BTW.


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## LuxLuthor (May 15, 2007)

OK, glad I asked all those questions. I had an incorrect understanding of what this did. Is there such a thing that just blocks voltage above a certain setting more like I was asking about, but that's all it does?


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## Icebreak (May 15, 2007)

JimmyM said:


> Whats a "tuit"?


I'm interested in the possibility that you might create a soft start for high amp incans. Knowing that time is a precious commodity I wanted to help so I thought I would send you one of these and that way you would get a round tuit.



*
Imma gonna pay for that one. *

JimmyM -> <- Icebreak.


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## JimmyM (May 15, 2007)

Oh my God. I was looking for something like that and didn't see it.  





Icebreak said:


> I'm interested in the possibility that you might create a soft start for high amp incans. Knowing that time is a precious commodity I wanted to help so I thought I would send you one of these and that way you would get a round tuit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## JimmyM (May 15, 2007)

Yup. You're describing a regulator. It will allow the output voltage to only go up to a certain value regardless (with in reason) on the input voltage. As the battery voltage falls the output would stay constant.

AWRs hotdriver does this by decreasing the resistance of its MOSFET to allow more of the remaining voltage to reach the bulb. A PWM based regulator would increase its Duty Cycle to compensate for a falling battery voltage.

The hotdriver is what's called a "Linear" regulator versus a "PWM" or "Switched Mode" regulator.



LuxLuthor said:


> OK, glad I asked all those questions. I had an incorrect understanding of what this did. Is there such a thing that just blocks voltage above a certain setting more like I was asking about, but that's all it does?


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## LuxLuthor (May 16, 2007)

I think I mean something a little different...but I need to put it in my simple terms, because I still don't know what "Duty cycle" means, nor Linear" regulator or "PWM" or "Switched Mode" regulator.

As I understand it, AWR's HD is directed at the scenario where you have batteries (i.e. 4 x 3.7V Li-Ion) putting out voltage that will flash the bulb throughout their drain cycle...like using 4 Li-Ion to power an 1185 that flashes at say 13V. So if you set his Vbulb to 12.8V in this scenario, that is all the bulb is ever gonna see till it shuts off.

I'm talking more about something more like capping the peak/startup voltage in a setting with 1185 bulb & using 9 x 2/3A Elite 1500 that ONLY run the risk of flashing the bulb hot off the charger when their voltage is like 1.55 x 9 = 13.95V (minus whatever resistance is in the spring and switch)...but it still flashes the 1185 in my stock FM light/spring/switch.

If I measure the tailcap voltage after letting it sit, and it is down to about 12.6V, then I'm sure it won't flash the bulb...but it would be nice to have something that at least would block the high voltage that flashes the bulb, but didn't do any other regulation....and as it drains below putting out say 13V, then this device would literally do nothing.


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## JimmyM (May 16, 2007)

You are talking about a regulator. You are describing exacty what a regulator does. It adjusts itself to keep the output voltage from going above a certain value. However, if the Battery voltage drops below that certain value, it just turns itself on ALL the way and then the output voltage falls with input voltage. When this happens the regulator is said to be in "drop out" mode.

You and I are talking about the same exact thing. If your nominal battery voltage is 12 volts and fully charged it's 14, but the bulb pops at 13. You set the regulator at 12.9 volts, so that the voltage never goes above the "pop voltage". But when the pack reaches 12.9 volts the regulator has nothing left to "regulate" and then it's just fully on. So as the pack voltage drops from 13 to 12.5 and 12.0 volts, the outout voltage follows it.



LuxLuthor said:


> I think I mean something a little different...but I need to put it in my simple terms, because I still don't know what "Duty cycle" means, nor Linear" regulator or "PWM" or "Switched Mode" regulator.
> 
> As I understand it, AWR's HD is directed at the scenario where you have batteries (i.e. 4 x 3.7V Li-Ion) putting out voltage that will flash the bulb throughout their drain cycle...like using 4 Li-Ion to power an 1185 that flashes at say 13V. So if you set his Vbulb to 12.8V in this scenario, that is all the bulb is ever gonna see till it shuts off.
> 
> ...


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## Ctechlite (May 22, 2007)

JimmyM said:


> That's the way to ring in the New Year! I'm going to try 17 cells as soon as I charge up a pile of them. If that thing will hold 20.2 volts that re-rates to 201 WATTS! Mmmmmm. Cant' wait.
> 
> Let me know how it goes.
> 
> ...




Did you ever try 18 rested cells? Just curious as I'm working on an 18 cell 100w setup that will have a Willie Hunt regulator, but if I could swap in an 65w IRC for a "Hi" mode in direct drive off the battery pack and use the 100w for a regulated "low" then I think that would be pretty sick.


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## JimmyM (May 22, 2007)

I never tried 18 rested cells. I used 1/2Ds. They can really put out the amps. So I don't think they sagged much under load anyway.

18 cells will pop an IRC65. Use the 458 limited to 20V by the regulator. Then just "turn it down" to 12-14 volts to run it in Low mode.

The IRC does draw fewer amps per lumen though. At least in the 15-18 volt range.



Ctechlite said:


> Did you ever try 18 rested cells? Just curious as I'm working on an 18 cell 100w setup that will have a Willie Hunt regulator, but if I could swap in an 65w IRC for a "Hi" mode in direct drive off the battery pack and use the 100w for a regulated "low" then I think that would be pretty sick.


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## petrev (May 22, 2007)

Hi Jimmy


Been watching all these posts on the big bulbs here and in the Most Powerful thread and noting your comments on your PWM softstarter - so these are my thoughts / wishes . . .

A PWM softstarter is nice for starters (no pun intended) but as you have mentioned a "max" Pot to set an upper cutoff at a certain % duty cycle would also be great as this would help with those pesky bulbs that fall into the gaps if using Lithiums - driving at 16 or 17 NiMh means it's in the space between 5 and 6 Li so while full PWM regulation would no doubt be nice, a great part of the way there would be your PWM-softstarter with a max-trim pot ! 

This would probably be great for driving a 65W-IRC or a 458 from 6xLi-D
or a 50WIRC from 6xLi-C to get max overdrive ( at least for a while) and should stress the cells less and get a slightly flatter discharge curve too . . . also works for running 18NiMh similarly - no wasting space with dummy cells !

Also ! while on the wish list ! ! ! how about a simple low V cutoff pot at a preset V (if that's not to difficult and doesn't add to much to the complexity etc.) as this would help no end with the unprotected D cells. Bit wary these days as I have killed 2 other cells by over-discharging them acidentally - only fatal to the cells thank goodness.

Keep up the good work :wave: 

Pete


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## Ctechlite (May 24, 2007)

JimmyM said:


> I never tried 18 rested cells. I used 1/2Ds. They can really put out the amps. So I don't think they sagged much under load anyway.
> 
> 18 cells will pop an IRC65. Use the 458 limited to 20V by the regulator. Then just "turn it down" to 12-14 volts to run it in Low mode.
> 
> The IRC does draw fewer amps per lumen though. At least in the 15-18 volt range.



The regulator is a set and forget deal and is already built, but thanks for the idea.


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## jimjones3630 (Jun 3, 2007)

Rereading this I got a laugh thinking about my last experience with dyanmite.

Here recreational minning is popular and commerical minning of course. About 15 years ago a friend who had a commerical onging venture had some old dynamite-read 1/4 inch beautiful crystal formations leaking out of it--we took out in the desert to shoot. Oh, was God looking out for us.

Bench ran the 64458 in Elephant body yesterday with ceramic insulation packed. Longest run time so far, maybe 3 min. continous. It gets hot even with insulation but not too hot to hold.

Jim



JimmyM said:


> I suppose the worst thing that could happen is that it blows the bulb and you get glass in your eyes while a piece of white hot filament flies into your fireworks and sweaty dynamite collection.


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## drew2001 (Dec 4, 2007)

Good info on the Osram 64458 .... bump to keep this thread alive as Jimmys SST is coming to a few happy modders soon...Thanks Jimmy, and looking forward to your v. reg design.


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## Hallis (Apr 12, 2008)

I had a thought,, Scary eh? How about making whatever electronics into a flat, d-sized (around) round disk that can be put above the battery pack or below? Making it modular and easier to fiddle with as it'd just pop right out.

Shane


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