# Problem with surefire tailcap - surefire abandons older 6Ps.



## Sgaterboy (Jul 16, 2006)

This happens with both of my 6p tailcaps, and then it rattles around inside the light... should I just super glue the thing back in? is there a reason its _supposed_ to come out? thanks


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## elgarak (Jul 16, 2006)

*Re: Problem with surefire tailcap*

Have you called Surefire? They'll tell you what to do, and send you new tailcaps if they're broken.


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## Size15's (Jul 16, 2006)

*Re: Problem with surefire tailcap*

That TailCap is not a LockOut TailCap so yes, it is supposed to come out.
I suggest you purchase a Z41 LockOut TailCap.

Al


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## Sgaterboy (Aug 3, 2006)

*Re: Problem with surefire tailcap*

yep, its supposed to come out. I called surefire customer support. they told my to buy a 37 to 38 dollar tailcap to fix it. . . Its hard to justify spending that on a light i got for 50 dollars. . . 

My biggest problem with it is that the metal piece is really loose in there, it just falls right out. this means every time i change the batteries i need to carefully maneuver the thing into the tailcap and hold it vertically while screwing on the body. . . a big pain, and almost impossible to do in the dark  plus, the metal thing is liable to fall out and roll off, which in a dark room would be disastrous. 

Customer service told me I could unscrew the bezel to access the battery compartment. seems like then I'd have exactly the same problem with the lamp assembly :huh2: so. . .

anyone care to trade an old style 6p collectors item tailcap for a "new" model? Its funny that a 99 cent flashlight from walmart doesnt have a problem with the springs falling out everytime the battery's changed, but surefire does. oh well, at least they've fixed the problem with their new lights. maybe i should stop trolling the BST forums and buy stuff new from the manufacturer that dont have these annoying kinks.

http://www.windowsnetworking.com/J_Helmig/swbug.htm


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## Illum (Aug 3, 2006)

*Re: Problem with surefire tailcap (now with funny dilbert reference!!)*

where might be *(now with funny dilbert reference!!) 

*??:huh2:


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## Brighteyez (Aug 3, 2006)

*Re: Problem with surefire tailcap*

Thank you for sharing that, it pretty much fortifies the reason I've avoided Sure Fire products all these years; and I thought that maybe it was just their engineering that didn't appeal to me (please note didn't appeal to me for the Sure Fire fans)

On the other hand Steamlight does sell the SL 4AA PP Luxeon module separately, even though it is not on their current price list. A lady in their sales department quoted me $45! 



Sgaterboy said:


> I called surefire customer support. they told my to buy a 37 to 38 dollar tailcap to fix it. . .


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## Size15's (Aug 3, 2006)

*Re: Problem with surefire tailcap (now with funny dilbert reference!!)*

SureFire upgraded the 6P to feature the LockOut TailCap years ago.

You could get a G2 instead?


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## Sgaterboy (Aug 3, 2006)

*Re: Problem with surefire tailcap (now with funny dilbert reference!!)*



Illum_the_nation said:


> where might be *(now with funny dilbert reference!!) *
> 
> ??:huh2:


 
post number 4. . .
http://www.windowsnetworking.com/J_Helmig/swbug.htm
^--- this


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## schrenz (Aug 4, 2006)

*Re: Problem with surefire tailcap (now with funny dilbert reference!!)*

Normally, when you turn on the light once, the switch is fixed in the tailcap again (but not bomb-proof!:laughing: ), if this doesn't work, install a new (and perhaps thicker) O-ring.

Your problem is normal for the SF-*classics *, if you hate it, you must buy a new one.


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## Sgaterboy (Aug 29, 2006)

*Re: Problem with surefire tailcap (now with funny dilbert reference!!)*

well, here's the final email from surefire. I tried everything.



SUREFIRE "Customer Support" said:


> *Sir,*
> 
> * You have the old style tail caps You can call Surefire to order the new on piece tail caps for your lights. **If you have any further questions please call us at 800-828-8809. SureFire strives to provide World class customer service to all of our customers.
> SureFire technical support*
> ...


 
Please don't make fun of me for the video; I was desperate I was refusing to believe that surefire actually understood my problem, because from my perspective the flashlight is NOT supposed to behave that way.
oh well  I guess all I have to do now is send one last email to surefire customer support thanking them for their time. Its a shame that a company who generally has a great product refuses to actually stand behind it.


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## Loomy (Aug 29, 2006)

Their point is that the tailcap is supposed to be like that  Operating like it should, even if it's old and deprecated, isn't a warranty problem. I mean, your only complaint is that it comes out when you replace the batteries? You have to be realistic!  Only if it actually broke would they replace it. And thats why the Surefire warranty is the best -- when it does break, you get a new one no problem.


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## Sgaterboy (Aug 29, 2006)

Loomy said:


> Their point is that the tailcap is supposed to be like that  Operating like it should, even if it's old and deprecated, isn't a warranty problem. I mean, your only complaint is that it comes out when you replace the batteries? You have to be realistic!  Only if it actually broke would they replace it. And thats why the Surefire warranty is the best -- when it does break, you get a new one no problem.


 
the tailcap is NOT supposed to be like that. The piece is supposed to stay in place unless pulled out. the third tailcap in the video looks EXACTLY the same, except its not worn on the inside as much. it has the same markings and from the outside of the flashlight cannot be distinguished from the others. the only difference is that its not broken and worn out yet. Why would a company have a piece completely unsecured on the product? It doesnt make sense. It should POP out, not FALL out.


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## Jumpmaster (Aug 29, 2006)

Sgaterboy said:


> the tailcap is NOT supposed to be like that. The piece is supposed to stay in place unless pulled out.



Actually, I have a 6R from around 1992 that has done that since I purchased it. The switch just falls out.

(BTW, the 6R is exactly like the 6P -- just had an adapter to allow use of the B65...operation and parts are identical to the 6P)

JM-99


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## Sgaterboy (Aug 29, 2006)

Jumpmaster said:


> Actually, I have a 6R from around 1992 that has done that since I purchased it. The switch just falls out.
> 
> (BTW, the 6R is exactly like the 6P -- just had an adapter to allow use of the B65...operation and parts are identical to the 6P)
> 
> JM-99


 
yes, actually one of those tailcaps is a 6R. I just said 6P because I figured they're the same. I dont understand why a company would intentionally make a product like that? I can see no reason why on a 60 dollar flashlight they couldnt put a lip or something into it to keep it in place. MagLites cost six bucks, and the springs dont fall out; the 99 cent flashlights at walmart dont fall apart when you open them up. :scowl:


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## dyyys1 (Aug 29, 2006)

Perhaps you could put one or two layers of tape on the inside of the tailcap wall. That should provide some friction to keep the contact in place w/o permanently securing it in there. I know you would rather have SF just replace it, but apparently they won't since it isn't technically _broken_, just a little looser than most tailcaps..


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## Sgaterboy (Aug 29, 2006)

ITS THE PRINCIPLE OF IT ALL DA**IT @%#!    

I've got more than one tailcap which will work great. I just have two that DON'T   and they're supposed to have a warranty.

MAybe I'm just lonely and I'm using surefire as a last ditch attempt at finding someone to talk to.  

Or maybe I'm a secret undercove M*GLITE representative who's trying to covertly destroy the competition.

maybe I'm confused and am actually just looking for a tailcap on a Honda P6.

MAYBE theres no such thing as a Honda P6.

maybe I need to go check all my flashlights again for teh hurricane.

see ya.

EDIT: after the hurricane, I think I'll just sell the 6Ps and call it quits. I should be able to get 45 for them on BST, but then would I have lost? we'll call it a draw.


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## Size15's (Aug 29, 2006)

Sgaterboy said:


> the tailcap is NOT supposed to be like that. The piece is supposed to stay in place unless pulled out.


NOT correct. No Classic TailCap switch contact assembly should be stuck inside the TailCap housing and be required to "POP out".

Sgaterboy,
I'd actually say that the third tailcap that has the switch contact assembly stuck inside is the one which is not behaving normally. I'm not sure why it is not free to fall out like the others.

Remember that SureFire created the "6P" and other TacticalLights in a time when the users were not the public. Far from it. SureFire created the momentary on/off push-button pressure switch TailCap that could be screwed onto the body for constant-on light and it as simple, effective and extremely reliable & durable.

SureFire introduced the LockOut TailCap as a replacement to the old design but none of the ones in the video are defective (except perhaps the one with the stuck switch contact assembly - the video isn't bright enough to really tell for sure).

The LOTC was introduced as an important feature needed as the demand grew and the number of products in use rapidly increased. With a larger user base it was clear that a simple and reliable means of disabling the switch securely for transport and storage was needed.

I believe you can still purchase this old style TailCap because Classic WeaponLights use the TailCap housing and replace the push-button assembly with a tape switch assembly (Sxx etc)






Anyway, it appears to me (and I get the impression it appears to SureFire as well) that you are attempting to get them to upgrade your Classic 6P's by claiming there is something wrong with the TailCaps you have. I agree with SureFire because there doesn't appear to be anything wrong with them.

I fully understand that the old style non-LOTC is not sufficient. When I ordered my first SureFire - a 12PM, I also ordered with it a Z41 LOTC and a Lanyard Kit. Of course time has moved on and now SureFires such as the M4 (the 12PM's successor) feature both these as standard.

Al


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## schrenz (Aug 29, 2006)

I agree with Al, it's an absolutely normal classic-tailcap, nothing wrong with, why should it be a warranty-case for SF?
These tailcaps had been buid to fix a tape-switch in it, so the switch must be removable, nowadays you have other tailcaps on the weapon-lights, most with a kind of "stick-in" tape-switches.
If you have such an old 6P (I suppose the LOTCs are now about 8years old, Al would know it better)live with it or sell it.


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## scott.cr (Aug 29, 2006)

That's the way the old tail caps are, as others have mentioned...

You could easily modify this cap to retain the button but cutting a groove around the ID and installing a snap ring.

Actually the old style of tail switch makes it possible to lubricate and replace the O-ring. On the current style, the button is riveted in place, so if the O-ring dies, so does the tail switch (unsafe to use without the O-ring).


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## Heck (Aug 29, 2006)

Whoa, I think this is a case of customer misunderstanding thinking all customer service is like McDonalds where the customer is always right. I ain't down with this. 

I think the tailcaps are fine and they are normal. Hell I even like those old ones better than LOTC, oddly cuz I like the feel of those older tailcaps


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## cy (Aug 29, 2006)

I've never had any problems with several 3P tailcaps. if you press really hard, assembly will come out. 

I could see if you did that all the time, it would get loose and drop out easier. 

never though it was an issue until this thread..


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## Sgaterboy (Aug 29, 2006)

The 6P is billed as a "general use" flashlight. to have pieces of the light scattering across the floor simply because the tailcap was removed should not appeal to someone who wants a "general use" flashlight.

The Product Manual says NOTHING about the pieces falling out. I can't find where its documented ANYWHERE by surefire where it mentions carefully realigning the guts of the flashlight before reassembly.

I can see how it might appear that I'm trying to get a free upgrade, however: I HAVE lockout tailcaps and I HAVE other classic 6p/r tailcaps which work properly. I offered to send the tailcaps in multiple times, paying for the shipping. I'm not out for a free lunch. 

I like the ergonomics of the larger button on the older models. the only thing i really use them for is beamshots or comparisons of various battery/lamp assembly combinations. Its difficult to swap the batteries around with the flashlight being sensitive to which direction you hold it. 

Don't forget, this isnt a dime-store product in which quirks like this are expected. I wouldn't complain if it was a 98 cent flashlight which flickered if you hold it at the wrong angle. But this is a top dollar *"general use"* flashlight. many people on here may not cringe at a 59.00 price tag, but I'd feel safe saying 95% of the people in america would NOT spend that kind of money on a flashlight. this is an expensive tool which is supposed to be better than the competition. having a friend reject it and stick with a 2d Mag simply because she couldnt deal with the battery changing hassle doesn't really sit well with me. I can't justify that to her by saying "Its a FEATURE! It does that so if you want to attach it to your AK47 you can!" designing a 60 dollar flashlight around a 300 dollar modification is not the way to go, in my opinion. I will take into consideration that the company was founded around a tactical market, but that doesnt change its description as "general use"

I wonder, how many 6Ps ever had that modification done to them? how many users ever actually swapped out the switchcover for the classic tape switch assembly? Was it worth the hassle for the 99% non rifle mounted user base? especially for the 6R, which I can't really see being attached to a weapon.

I'm gonna drop the issue. I can just sell the things and wash my hands of it. But this is still a fairly significant black mark on surefires record to me.

I don't buy the arguement that the cap which stays in place is the defective one. However, I must admit that my experience with surefire products, while pretty extensive, is absolutely not even CLOSE to being on par with size15s. 
I wouldn't be surprised if he knew more about Surefires than Paul Kim.
If Size15 has observed that most older tailcaps do not retain the contact, then that must be the rule. The fact that I have three 'good' ones and one 'bad' one (plus my friends) really doesnt matter; its too small a sample group.

so I'll admit defeat. sell the older lights, and forget it happened. 

one last question to Al, if he decides to revisit this post:

is the disassembling tailcap present on any other surefire models, or just the 6P and 6R? do older 9Ps also have 'bad' caps among them? thanks.


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## dano (Aug 29, 2006)

I have a real old 6P that has a non-lock out tailcap and still has the original membrane (that's nearly flat with the rear of the tail cap. It also has no ridges. Basically, it looks like a bubble coming out of the tailcap). The The swicth plunger will fall out of this.

With the newer raised membranes, the plunger will not fall out, at least with my SF's.

At one point, SF offered the newer membranes as an upgrade if you called them.

This isn't a warranty issue, and SF has no obligation to send out new parts for free or replace the parts.

-dan


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## Sgaterboy (Aug 29, 2006)

Thanks, Dan. its too baad surefire isnt offering the membranes anymore; does anyone happen to have one? were they ever available commercially?


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## Sgaterboy (Aug 29, 2006)

dano said:


> At one point, SF offered the newer membranes as an upgrade if you called them.
> -dan


 
seems liks an admission on surefires part that the old style weren't up to par.


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## GarageBoy (Aug 29, 2006)

Brand new G2 I brought a year and a half ago does the same thing.


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## firefly99 (Aug 30, 2006)

Sgaterboy said:


> is the disassembling tailcap present on any other surefire models, or just the 6P and 6R? do older 9Ps also have 'bad' caps among them? thanks.



My old G2 has this problem and I though it is strange too. But decide it is not suitable for active uses, where battery changes in field is necessary.

So when they upgraded the G2 with the LOTC, I was went out to get another 3 G2.


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## StandOnGuard (Aug 30, 2006)

> Remember that SureFire created the "6P" and other TacticalLights in a time when the users were not the public.


 But why would the tactical market want a tailcap that falls apart like that? What advantage does that provide?


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## TigerhawkT3 (Aug 30, 2006)

This thread reminds me of the Gladius's tailcap. :laughing:


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## Size15's (Aug 30, 2006)

StandOnGuard said:


> But why would the tactical market want a tailcap that falls apart like that? What advantage does that provide?



The more units sold, the larger number of users are going to see the issue as a problem and of those there will be a higher proportion of users who actually vocalise that it is not acceptable.

When the 6P was first introduced the fact that it existed at all was likely far more significant than any issues it had. Remember that only recently have a far larger market been able to have far more choice regarding which product and which brand to selected. SureFire have continuously evolved its products to maintain its lead at the top. I have no doubt that the innovation and introduction of the LockOut TailCap is one of the key milestones for the industry as well as for SureFire.

Al


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## Paladin (Aug 30, 2006)

I've watched this thread a while now, and have this to say.

*When some "fill-in-the-blank" who fails to read the instruction manual has a problem, IT IS HIS OWN FAULT.* Changing the batteries in my Surefire 6P manual says to access them from the BEZEL end. If the OP beating this dead horse had FOLLOWED FACTORY INSTRUCTIONS his tailcaps would NOT be falling apart. And Surefire does assume (perhaps incorrectly?) that their customers are sophisticated enough to have heard about, and UNDERSTAND gravity. Really, how many times would you drop something before figuring out a better method?!

Installation
 1. Remove the Bezel and Lamp Assembly from the flashlight by unscrewing the Bezel (counterclockwise) until it comes off the flashlight.
 2. Install the two Batteries with the + terminals facing out.
 3. Re-install the Bezel and Lamp Assembly by placing the lamp Assembly inside the Bezel and then screwing the Bezel (clockwise) onto the flashlight body until it is seated.

Sometimes, things really ARE as simple as reading the directions...

Paladin


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## Sgaterboy (Aug 30, 2006)

Paladin said:


> I've watched this thread a while now, and have this to say.
> 
> *When some "fill-in-the-blank" who fails to read the instruction manual has a problem, IT IS HIS OWN FAULT.* Changing the batteries in my Surefire 6P manual says to access them from the BEZEL end. If the OP beating this dead horse had FOLLOWED FACTORY INSTRUCTIONS his tailcaps would NOT be falling apart. And Surefire does assume (perhaps incorrectly?) that their customers are sophisticated enough to have heard about, and UNDERSTAND gravity. Really, how many times would you drop something before figuring out a better method?!
> 
> ...


 
PAladin;
I don't know why you are insulting me or my intelligence. I have never seen the manual you refer to.

this is the most recent, up to date surefire manual for the 6P. It specifically refers to older, non lotc models (the ones we are referring to), so you can't argue its not applicable.



OFFICIAL SUREFIRE 6P MANUAL said:


> Battery Installation





OFFICIAL SUREFIRE 6P MANUAL said:


> Unscrew the tailcap and insert new batteries. Replace
> 
> tailcap and depress tailcap pushbutton switch to test.
> 
> ...




Game, set, match. thanks for playing. you lose.​


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## schrenz (Aug 30, 2006)

sgaterboy posted:

Originally Posted by *OFFICIAL SUREFIRE 6P MANUAL*
_Battery Installation_


</FONT></FONT>Unscrew the tailcap and insert new batteries. Replace


tailcap and depress tailcap pushbutton switch to test.

If light fails to function the tailcap may be in the lockout

position (excluding the G2 Nitrolon®, which does

not feature a lock-out tailcap). Rotate the tailcap

clockwise until momentary activation is possible.



I just had a look in an 12PM manual, there's described the bezel loading, too!​


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## Sgaterboy (Aug 30, 2006)

schrenz said:


> sgaterboy posted:
> . . .
> If light fails to function the tailcap may be in the lockout
> 
> ...


 
I fail to follow. read the next sentence. It refers to non a non lotc model we've been discussing. read firefly99 and garageboy's posts.


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## schrenz (Aug 30, 2006)

The old instructions mentioned the "bezel-loading", you quoted from a newer one, which refers to the LOTC-caps.

I don't understand the problem.


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## Sgaterboy (Aug 30, 2006)

the problem being that the newer manual is up to date. the old one is outdated. If surefire finds a problem with the way the old one was written (IE lamp assembly can be damaged by unnecessarily unscrewing and screwing in the bezel), then they will fix it in the new manual. Its Old and Busted vs New Hotness. and I'm more of a New Hotness kinda guy.


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## Sgaterboy (Aug 30, 2006)

PS schrenz.. theres a damsel in distress here but I can't help her out cause I don't speak german, and don't recognise the lights.


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## Size15's (Aug 30, 2006)

Sgaterboy said:


> PAladin;
> I don't know why you are insulting me or my intelligence. I have never seen the manual you refer to.
> 
> this is the most recent, up to date surefire manual for the 6P. It specifically refers to older, non lotc models (the ones we are referring to), so you can't argue its not applicable.
> ...


Hold on a moment - how was Paladin to know that you purhased a product without its manual?

The current 6P manual is not the most applicable manual for the Classic 6P. The correct manual for the Classic 6P is the manual it was supplied with. If you've purchased a product without its manual then thats not our, or SureFire's fault. SureFire supplies the 6P with an instruction manual. 

The quote from the current 6P manual informs the user that the TailCap may be locked out and as a result the push button will not activate the light.
However, since the old version of the G2 did not feature a LOTC this would not apply. If the push button of a non-LOTC does not activate the light then something else [rather than it being locked out] is causing this.

The current 6P manual refers to replacing the batteries from the tailcap-end of the flashlight because the current 6P features the LOTC. The manual was revised as the 6P was revised.

If you would like somebody to transcribe or scan a Classic 6P manual for you so you can better use your Classic 6P's then you have but to ask here on CPF. I'm sure that there are plenty of members who can help you.

It can not be assumed that old, discontinued products operate in exactly the same as the current versions of the products.

When using "Classic" products an appreciation of the historic nature of the product; putting the product in context, reduces the need for assumptions and chance of misunderstandings.



Sgaterboy said:


> the problem being that the newer manual is up to date. the old one is outdated.


Exactly! The old manual is outdated because the old 6P is outdated! The current manual is up to date because the current 6P is up to date!

There is nothing wrong with using the old manual for the old 6P and with using the current manual for the current 6P.

The old manual can not be used for the 6P any more than the new manual can be used for the old 6P.



Sgaterboy said:


> I'm more of a New Hotness kinda guy


Would you care to explain the apparent disparity between you assertion and the evidence which so far is that you have classic (old, discontinued) products. You certainly appear to want the features of a current 6P but appear to resist upgrading your old ones so that they do. It's simple enough - purchase a Z41 LOTC and a Z44 Pyrex-window bezel (total cost about $34 vs $54 for a whole new 6P)

Al


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## Sgaterboy (Aug 30, 2006)

Paladin had a very insulting post. I do not expect him to know that I bought the light used, however the benefit of the doubt would be night before he starts insulting me.

I was using the manuals reference to the older tailcap as a proof that the manual still attempted to be applicable to older models. It was not "written from scratch" as soon as the newer tailcaps were made standard. It attempts to incorporate both products needs into it.

I have not brought up the manual until now because I UNDERSTAND that it is a compromise, and surefire didnt want to add in a whole paragraph explaining that models made prior to 19xx had to have their batteries changed through the bezel.

However, surefire clearly does not see an issue with users changing the batteries through the tailcap on older models. Paladin should not insult me for going by the only manual i have available. He was off base, in my humble opinion.


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## Size15's (Aug 30, 2006)

The level of frustration evident in this thread is a sign of poor communication and I agree that too many assumptions have been.
I'm sure its something we can all learn to avoid or at least be more aware of in future.



Sgaterboy said:


> I was using the manuals reference to the older tailcap as a proof that the manual still attempted to be applicable to older models. It was not "written from scratch" as soon as the newer tailcaps were made standard. It attempts to incorporate both products needs into it.


Yes, they were written for the current models - the manuals like the products are revised. Of course the G2 now features the LOTC so the manual will need to be revised again!
I do not see that the current 6P manual attempts to be applicable to older models. It notes that the G2 (at the time of issuing the manual) did not feature a LOTC. 



Sgaterboy said:


> However, surefire clearly does not see an issue with users changing the batteries through the tailcap on older models.


I would not assume anything from SureFire not specifically mentioning that the G2 should be treated differently with regards to replacing the batteries.

The 'issue' of the switch contact assembly not being secured inside a non-LOTC is far less of an issue than troubleshooting a non-functioning flashlight, or highlighting that the push button switch of the G2 could not be disabled because it did not feature a LOTC. Another assumption is that SureFire didn't have a lot of space for additional text and also SureFire wanted to keep the manual as simple and generic as possible.

Al


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## Sgaterboy (Aug 30, 2006)

Size15's said:


> The level of frustration evident in this thread is a sign of poor communication and I agree that too many assumptions have been.
> I'm sure its something we can all learn to avoid or at least be more aware of in future.
> 
> Al


 
. . . We should close/lock this thread right there. :goodjob:


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## Size15's (Aug 30, 2006)

That seems fair enough. Thread Closed.


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