# The perfect Duty flashlight:a leo's perspective.



## bwcaw (Oct 19, 2010)

A lot has been made recently of all the new gee whiz led lights, how bright and cheap and whatever they are. I will admit that for a while I was sold that they were indeed better in every way than incans. However, after carrying various led lights to include surefires, streamlights and fenixes I have gone back to my old trusty Incan Surefire m3 as my primary light. I love almost everything about the new led lights as far as the light emitted an performance goes, but it seems like manufacturers have forgotten to design their lights with optimal functionality in mind. I love my m3 because it was designed from the ground up to be used with a handgun. It was also designed to be abused. Many of today's "tactical" flashlights look great and are super bright, but if you try to pair them with a handgun some of the "features" get in the way and could potentially get you killed. It's almost like someone saw a photo of a real fighting light and thought "oh! That looks cool! Let's make a light that looks like that!" without either understanding why it looks like that or actually using it as a light in conjunction with a handgun. 

In my humble opinion the Surefire combat light is the perfect duty light especially if it is the three cell version. It is small, lightweight, doesn't take up mug room on a duty belt, can be had with a specially designed holster that holds the light bezel down and is still long enough to be held under your arm for administrative tasks. And with the high output Incan lamps that lumensfactory makes and rechargeable li ion batteries it's practically free to run. Also, no led light I have yet seen can match the color rendition that you get with the incans. 

Just the ramblings of a poor public servant.


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## Cascade Range (Oct 19, 2010)

Glad you like it, thanks for sharing your thoughts. I have a Commander 8
and love it. I actually just bought it and although I'm not into LE I purchased it to go out on my evening walks after dark for exercise and to keep my blood pressure in check.
I'm not familiar with the light you have but will go and check it out online.
Take care.


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## Brigadier (Oct 19, 2010)

I too am enamored with the M3. I have two of them, and one has been bored for use with 18mm cells. I run it with 2X18500IMR and an M11. WOW!! that's bright.

My other runs an MN10 and AW17500's.

They are great lights all around.


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## revance (Oct 19, 2010)

I guess I don't understand... all of the incan Surefires intended for use with a pistol are also available in LED.

It doesn't seem like you have an issue with LEDs. Your gripes are with the flashlight design. I use a Surefire C2 with an M61 and it works great with a pistol. I like incandescents too, but I like that the LED won't fail when dropped or used with a gun. 

As for many of the "tactical" flashlights... remember they were designed by people who live in countries where guns are illegal.


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## revance (Oct 19, 2010)

Oops, double post


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## Capt. Nemo (Oct 19, 2010)

There are quite a few lights out there to be used with a handgun, but unless your department doesn't allow it, a weapon mounted light is invaluable. I'm a LEO in a very large city where we clear houses, alleys, vehicles, and carports/garages regularly (and I work 3rd's). While I love my handhelds, nothing compares to my weapon mounted Streamlight TLR-1 for clearing for the following reasons:

-It throws a decent amount of light downrange in a small compact package.

-I can flip it to constant on and keep one hand on my weapon while I clear on my radio.

-I can lift garbage can lids/recycle bin lids with one hand and use my weapon and light with the other to clear the container - and same goes for vehicle trunks.

Nothing better than chasing down a SP and having him at gun point, blinded by your weapon light and being able to call for backup without fumbling with a handheld. It's also an easier transition to non-lethal if need be.

Stay safe.


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## Brigadier (Oct 19, 2010)

And you are pointing a loaded gun at everything you want to illuminate. Not good, IMO.

First rule of gun safety - Never point a gun at anything you are not ready to shoot.

Now, in a tactical breeching scenario, I can see it, but all too often, the pistol with the light attached becomes the default flashlight with a loaded gun attached.

YMMV.


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## Capt. Nemo (Oct 19, 2010)

Brigadier said:


> And you are pointed a loaded gun at everything you want to illuminate. Not good, IMO.



Muzzle discipline. Not pointing it at everything I WANT to illuminate, but at everything that is an unknown and may potentially harm me. Better believe I'm going to come into a situation with as much of an advantage as possible. Suspect is expecting a flashlight pointed at them and finds the barrel of my .45 accompanying it has changed their minds a few times.

The weapon light has NEVER, or will ever, become the default. I like my job, and pointing a loaded weapon at a person without cause is, well, against the law.


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## revance (Oct 19, 2010)

Brigadier said:


> And you are pointing a loaded gun at everything you want to illuminate. Not good, IMO.
> 
> First rule of gun safety - Never point a gun at anything you are not ready to shoot.



Actually 1st rule is ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED. No need to say "loaded gun"



Capt. Nemo said:


> Muzzle discipline. Not pointing it at everything I WANT to illuminate, but at everything that is an unknown and may potentially harm me. Better believe I'm going to come into a situation with as much of an advantage as possible. Suspect is expecting a flashlight pointed at them and finds the barrel of my .45 accompanying it has changed their minds a few times.
> 
> The weapon light has NEVER, or will ever, become the default. I like my job, and pointing a loaded weapon at a person without cause is, well, against the law.



Again, all guns are loaded... pointing ANY gun at someone when lethal force is not justified is against the law (at least in my state). 

I think you would be surprised at how many people get complacent about gun safety and let their instinctive urge to "point a light at that" get the best of them and light something up with a weaponlight. Just be careful not to become one of those guys.


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## Capt. Nemo (Oct 20, 2010)

revance said:


> Actually 1st rule is ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED. No need to say "loaded gun"
> 
> 
> 
> ...




This thread has gone a bit off topic, so this will be my last post here.

The justification defense in the THREATENED use of deadly force (pointing a gun at a person), and the ACTUAL use of deadly force (pulling the trigger) are different. I can easily articulate the difference in a report based on our state laws.

The second part of your statement goes against all training I've received. The "instinctive urge" you describe isn't what I would attribute to most LEO's working nights. Quite the opposite really. "Point a light at that" is contrary to any training I've received, and thus not instinctual at all. Cover, concealment, tactical advantage, avoiding backlighting, staying in shadows, not giving position away is how we're trained.

I guess to "become one of those guys" I'd have to give up my sheepdog instinct and run with the flock. Not happening.


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## Brigadier (Oct 20, 2010)

Capt. Nemo said:


> Muzzle discipline. Not pointing it at everything I WANT to illuminate, but at everything that is an unknown and may potentially harm me.
> 
> The weapon light has NEVER, or will ever, become the default. I like my job, and pointing a loaded weapon at a person without cause is, well, against the law.



And yet you admit to using your weapon light to search trash cans......


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## Roger999 (Oct 20, 2010)

Brigadier said:


> And yet you admit to using your weapon light to search trash cans......


I'm not a LEO or in that type of business, but if there may be a threat inside a trash can, you need 1 hand to lift it up and that leaves you only 1 hand left, so it's either a light or a gun with a light on it....IMO if I was searching it I'd be more worried about my own safety rather than a person who hides in trash cans. AFAIK most harmless innocent people won't be hiding inside trash cans.


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## jaundice (Oct 21, 2010)

Brigadier said:


> And yet you admit to using your weapon light to search trash cans......


 
If a cop is doing a search with his gun out, it's because there's cause to point it at the guy he's looking for. I've never seen cops search for a lost kid with their guns out. I've seen them search for fleeing felons with their guns out plenty of times. 

Once that cop determines that the guy in the garbage can isn't a threat, he'll probably stop covering them with the muzzle of his weapon.

-John


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## revance (Oct 21, 2010)

jaundice said:


> If a cop is doing a search with his gun out, it's because there's cause to point it at the guy he's looking for. I've never seen cops search for a lost kid with their guns out. I've seen them search for fleeing felons with their guns out plenty of times.
> 
> Once that cop determines that the guy in the garbage can isn't a threat, he'll probably stop covering them with the muzzle of his weapon.
> 
> -John



Having your gun out doesn't mean pointing it around. Unlike TV (which I assume is where you have seen this), in real life, those guns have live rounds in them that can easily penetrate walls (Google the box of truth). When you walk around with your gun out, you don't swing it around like they do on Law and Order.

I am not against having a weapon light. I am just saying that you should also have a hand held because a weapon light is not always appropriate. You must also be careful while using a weapon light that you don't cover things with your muzzle that you wouldn't have covered if you didn't have a light attached to the end of it. IT DOES HAPPEN.

There is a reason some departments don't allow them.

Back on topic... I don't see how the OP complaint has anything to do with LEDs, it seems his complaint is with the design of the flashlight.


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## Robocop (Oct 22, 2010)

I also have tried over the years to find a luxeon that I could live with for a main duty light. I have came close with a few however always return to a high power incan for my main light. Todays LED performers are incredible and have advanced greatly however for me I simply enjoy an incan for duty use.

Yes the lamps rarely fail on better LEDs and the power consumption to output ratio may be better yet again I always return to my incandescent. I have so much invested in my current incan gear that i can go for a long time before I need to worry about replacing my set up. I have several 9 volt lamps as well as 12 and 13 volts and rotate them often.

I do use several different luxeon lights as back up lighting simply because I could not find many options in a single cell (123 cell) incan package. There are several excellent performers in this size for luxeons and fit nicely on my already crowded duty belt.....well actually this last month I have carried the solar force single cell with the E0-4 incan lamp and IMR 16340 cell. Nice small incan back up in a nice looking host.

The smart side of me says there are many reasons to switch to a nicer quality LED main duty light. I honestly do not know if it is my imagination however after actually using both incan and LED I simply seem to "see" much better with my incan. I work in a large city all on night shift and often use my lights on duty. This city setting has much ambient light and in this setting it seems like my incan does much better in low light vs no light.

From personal experience also in bad weather such as fog or even smoke it seems like my incan does much better. Again this may be my imagination as I am already biased towards incans but to me it seems the incans have a little more punch to them....or at least the higher power incans do.

I had my main duty light fail (blown lamp) during a heavy string of fire on the night time qualification course. On this course it is set up where equipment failure is no excuse for a re-shoot and the shooter has to clear any failure and adapt. There were maybe 30 of us on the line in crappy weather and very cold outside. As soon as my light failed I went right to my back up which was a the slick little TW4 using a Li-Ion 16340.

My little back up threw a wall of cool light downrange and yes I did qualify however it was much harder for me as the LED seemed to struggle with all the haze, fog, and smoke surrounding the range area.....yes it put out enough light but it was much different than the incan I had used seconds earlier.

I am still experimenting with current luxeon options in the same size as my Wolf-Eyes M90. Maybe I will find something that I can use well but for me the search is still going. Maybe I have simply been a cop too long and actually know the difference between the two lighting options. Most of the younger officers I see all start with the LED and I often believe it is because they never used the better incans so they have nothing to compare to.

I believe it depends some on the environment as well as personal likes and dislikes. Good training can overcome average equipment and with todays choices there are several decent options in both styles of lighting. Good luck and use what works for you.


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## revance (Oct 22, 2010)

I think a good point the OP makes is that many of these new lights look like someone saw a tactical flashlight, said "ooh that looks cool, lets make one" and churned something out that just looks cool.

However you can't blame them too much. Most of the manufacturers are in China, where they have likely never even TOUCHED a gun an they definitely can't own one.


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## wquiles (Oct 23, 2010)

bwcaw said:


> ... Also, no led light I have yet seen can match the color rendition that you get with the incans...



+1

I terms of builds and projects, most all of my work are LED projects, but it was the color rendition and the great beam in the M6 that drove me to develop the PhD-M6. I am sure it is only a mater of time, but so far, when I am outdoors, I still have not found an LED that can rival a regulated incandescent bulb for accurate color rendition :thumbsup:


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