# Replacements for solar garden light batteries, Ni-Cd or NiMH?



## crofty (Mar 22, 2009)

The few shops that still have stock are not cheap, best price I could find was £2.24 ($3.25) per cell for Ni-Cd AA`s, while eneloops for example are £1.62 ($2.35).

So I wonder would LSD, NiMH or low capacity NiMH be suitable replacements in terms of not leaking or rusting or becoming dead within a few months?

NiZn may be another option for the future but their not currently available so that rules them out for now.

Thanks in advance.


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## Marduke (Mar 22, 2009)

NiMH cells would not be suitable to replace NiCad in those applications. The constant trickle charge is not very good for NiMH cells.

You can get NiCad for much cheaper. These for example.


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## Mr Happy (Mar 23, 2009)

The cheaper priced NiCd is a good option.

I think the problem with eneloops in solar garden lights is not overcharging but over-discharging. The capacity is too high for them ever to reach a full charge in a day of sunlight, but at night the lights will run them right down to empty and beyond. NiCd can take deep discharge cycles much better than NiMH can.


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## VidPro (Mar 23, 2009)

whatever is in there now sucks right? so get some cheap china batts , to start the process all over again 
then it will be just like NEW 

its both, somehow it has to do 365 cycles a year, discharge low, and slow charge , plus if it goes to low, it wont be kicked back up again by the so slow solar cell.
i am tempted to put more solar on mine, a proper cutoff curcuit, enloops, and a Cree  
the ni-cd will hold up in the COLD better too.

then we were wondering why they sell these things without them Lasting time ever? Magic solar charge save beeg money run year round consuming some .00000000004KWH of power, puttng out huge 1/2 candle for about 2 hours , saving millions on my electrical bill, and lasting about 6 months total. So what would be so wrong to make them last a long time, then the price goes from $13 to $100. but in the LONG run, would it be worth it? $2 a month for total garbage, or $2 a month for something that isnt DEAD half the time? and the LEds that are in them, heck they are 50% themselves in the 6months TOO.
Argg
that is why i avoided them, but now i got one, and it must be modded in some way that i Never have to deal with it again, say nuclear fuel cell, sodium vapor and self cleaning wiper?
heck a candle would work better 

i am just happy to know how envrimentally helpfull they are, filling up the dumps with them , and thier batteries. there must be a real solution. i think the cabon footprint of shipping mine from china will pay off around the year 2045, and completly offset the global warming picture.


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## crofty (Mar 23, 2009)

eneloops were just an example, to demonstrate that even high priced NiMH are cheaper than Ni-Cd`s where I am. They aren`t my first choice to feed solar lights with, I`ve observed these solar light cutting out only when there isn`t enough juice to light the LED at all, around 0.72v.

Thanks for the DX link, don`t really want to wait weeks/months for them to arrive, although I could get another light while I was at it. :devil:

Any suggestions for a single aa light with low voltage cutoff and a high/low setting? Or just any single aa light that`s impressed you?


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## drmaxx (Mar 23, 2009)

VidPro said:


> [...] but in the LONG run, would it be worth it? $2 a month for total garbage, or $2 a month for something that isnt DEAD half the time?



VidPro, I really liked your rant! :twothumbs: It seems that since [email protected] only price matters. If you can get it for less then it is better....


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## Turbo Guy (Mar 23, 2009)

My solar powered walkway lights take 2 AA cells per light. They are close to two years old now and only two of them have needed battery replacements. I used well worn NiMH cells in those and they are doing well in fact they stay much brighter than the ones which have the original NiCads in them ,even when they were new.


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## PeAK (Mar 24, 2009)

Turbo Guy said:


> My solar powered walkway lights take 2 AA cells per light. They are close to two years old now and only two of them have needed battery replacements. I used well worn NiMH cells in those and they are doing well in fact they stay much brighter than the ones which have the original NiCads in them ,even when they were new.


Interesting. Do you live in Arizona or Utah ? It would seem that 2 AA cells might suffer from cell reversal issues if they ever do run down enough. I did some measurements last year and found the charge rate in bright sunlight was about twice the discharge rate. All of this works out well if we have twelve hour nights (& days) and if it makes it through the night 

...I like NiCads in this case,
PeAK


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## Turbo Guy (Mar 24, 2009)

> Do you live in Arizona or Utah ?


 
I thought the logical reason for providing a space for members to provide their location was ................. Guess not enough bother filling in such info so most do not bother looking for / reading same.



> Location: Haralson County GA USA


 

I have not bothered to check my lights but a single white LED draws approx. 20 mA. OEM Nicads in mine are 800 mAh . fully charged that would be on the order of approx. 40 hrs. so closer to 30 real hours. One year of daily cycles 60% remaining capacity so perhaps 18 hours on a full charge. Our darkness periods are or from approx. 8PM to 7AM or 11 hours this time of the year. 

Perhaps one reason mine work so well is that I took the time when they were new to first cycle the Nicads, check the solder joints(some required touching up), cleaned the battery contacts and apply an anti.-oxidation compound.


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## ifoxbox (Apr 2, 2009)

crofty said:


> The few shops that still have stock are not cheap, best price I could find was £2.24 ($3.25) per cell for Ni-Cd AA`s, while eneloops for example are £1.62 ($2.35).
> 
> So I wonder would LSD, NiMH or low capacity NiMH be suitable replacements in terms of not leaking or rusting or becoming dead within a few months?
> 
> ...



I have some new Sanyo KR-1100AAU cells. In my opinion, they are the highest quality NiCd cells on the market. You mentioned you did not really want to wait to get the batteries, but if you change your mind, I would be willing to send you a few for $1.80 each. 

Just let me know if you are intersted.


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## oldrock (Apr 3, 2009)

I like this thread! I have solar lights around my pool and they are so weak that they barely do anything. They do run all night and are powered by a single nicad AA cell so you have me thinking maybe I should upgrade the led in mine so they kick out more juice. Course if I draw too much down on them, I guess I shorten the life on the nicad cells but heck nicads are cheap so who cares right? What do you guys suggest for a replacement led? I was thinking maybe steal one out of those cheapie squeeze lights you get by the dozen from DX. Do you think that would work? They definately are brighter than the lights that came with my solar landscape lights and seem to run a long time on button cells so should might be ok with a single AA cell?


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## abvidledUK (May 17, 2009)

After replacing the nicd's with nimh's in a couple of my solar lights, which didn't do too well, I had a thought.

Recharging of alkaline batteries has been around for a while, dependent on topping up a not depleted battery, at low current.

So I replaced the cells in my solar lights with alkaline AA's.

Of course the charge current is low, and they are well away from house if they do blow up !

So far, over a week, and still going strong.

And I don't believe it's solely down to a higher capacity before depletion.

There has to be some topping up on a daily basis.

Potential there.


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## Mr Happy (May 17, 2009)

abvidledUK said:


> So I replaced the cells in my solar lights with alkaline AA's.


Seems like a good plan, except I'd worry about them leaking after a while. Might be an idea to use rechargeable alkalines instead of regular ones?


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## Light Sabre (May 17, 2009)

Rechargeable alkalines don't handle being dishcharged all the way down very well. It dramatically shortens their life. You charge them by constant voltage which is what it sounds like the solar garden lights do. NiCads and NMH batteries should be constant current charged. I don't understand how the NiCads are recharged in the solar lights with constant voltage. Maybe someone could explain it to me.


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## Mr Happy (May 17, 2009)

Light Sabre said:


> Rechargeable alkalines don't handle being dishcharged all the way down very well. It dramatically shortens their life.


Indeed, which might make alkalines ideal for solar lights. Alkaline batteries have a much higher capacity than the NiCd cells traditionally used in solar lights, so if the alkaline cell is only discharged by the same amount as a NiCd it will count as a shallow discharge before being charged again the next day.



> You charge them by constant voltage which is what it sounds like the solar garden lights do. NiCads and NMH batteries should be constant current charged. I don't understand how the NiCads are recharged in the solar lights with constant voltage. Maybe someone could explain it to me.


You seem to have a misunderstanding about charging. A cell is charged, any cell, by feeding current into it. Whether this is a constant current or a variable current does not really make any huge difference to the fact that the cell gets charged. What matters, for some cells, is that charging must stop before the cell gets overcharged.

Alkaline cells fall into the category of not liking overcharge (they can leak), so charging them in a solar charger is not a good plan from that perspective. Simple solar chargers are in fact more like constant current chargers than constant voltage chargers -- the voltage they generate is made higher than the cell terminal voltage in order to maximize the current flow.

NiCd cells can tolerate low current overcharging almost forever, which means they are ideal for use in applications where there is no particular control over the charging current. This makes them perfect for solar garden lights, which pretty much charge their batteries for as long as they are in bright daylight.

So the short answer is that alkaline cells in a solar garden light will likely leak after a while, but you can never know for sure without trying it.


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## Black Rose (May 18, 2009)

I took all the NiCd cells out of my lights before I stored the lights for the winter (solar lights don't work well buried under 3 foot snowbanks ) so I could cycle them in my C9000 and C800S chargers.

It took a lot of work due to high internal resistance in the cells, but only 4 or 5 of the 23 cells have issue. We'll see how well they will work this year.

I'll probably end up replacing most of the cells next year with better quality NiCd cells.


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## AlexLED (May 25, 2009)

Ah, always great to see other's have similar ideas to mine ... 

There is a bit of a hype about those cheapo solar lights over here in Germany so one of them happened to show up on my balcony... 

Fueled by one "greener" NiMH AA, which I replaced by a NiCd, which I figure would handle the deep discharges and cycles better. Unfortunately, the LED stops glowing around 11pm, which shows to me the cell doesn't get fully charged over the day. 

My cure will be to exchange the solar-cell with a more powerfull one.... 

My measurements showed: charging currant: 15mA, discharging currant: 9mA. So I think, there is now way an AA cell could get overcharged ....


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## learning (May 28, 2009)

ifoxbox said:


> I have some new Sanyo KR-1100AAU cells. In my opinion, they are the highest quality NiCd cells on the market. You mentioned you did not really want to wait to get the batteries, but if you change your mind, I would be willing to send you a few for $1.80 each.
> 
> Hi, I just found this forum and realize I need NiCads, and my current batteries were Sanyo's. Are you in the US? I need two of these and would be happy to get them from you.


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## Turak (May 28, 2009)

If you search the forum, there have been other discussions about this very subject.....

I have about 16-18 of the Hampton Bay brand solar lights. These are the typical single LED solar lights you see at Lowes, Home Depot, etc.

Over the past few years, I have bought 4 sets (6 to a set). All 4 sets came with some 'el cheapo' batteries. 1 set came with 400mA NiCd's. 2 sets came with 600mA NiCd's. and 1 set came with 800 mA NiCd's. All of them some of the cheapest batteries I have ever seen....made in china. One set had 'Just NiCd' brand name.

Each of the solar lights take 2 AA cells.

The solar cell on top of them is circular, about 3" to 4" across. I had measured the output current in full sun one day and it came in at 20mA and about 5 mA on an overcast day with partial sunlight occasionally.

At night, when on, the light had a draw of about 25-30mA.

In the summer time, we may get 14-16 hours of usable sunlight...max.

So...doing some math and you can see that the cells will only ever see...at the most.....a charge of about 280mA. Even if I throw in a few extra mA's and call it 350mA total.....

BOTTOM LINE.....the cells will NEVER receive a full charge.

To maximize the cell life and performance, you would want to run it almost all the way down and charge it all the way up..without going into overcharge. Although at that low rate it would be hard to 'overcharge' the cells.

So....in theory, if your total overall charge is running any where from 0mA to a max of about 300-350mA...and you want to maximize the life/performance of the cells. Using the cells from the lights I got above. THe 400mA cells should work the best, with the 600mA cells running 2nd, and the 800mA cells being the worst choice.

My experience, over the past 7 years, has truly shown that the 600 mA cells perform the best with the 400mA cells running a close 2nd, and the 800mA cells in last place.

It is a simple fact that the higher capacity cells are almost a TOTAL WASTE in small solar light applications. They just CAN NOT ever get a full charge. Let alone 'consistently' get a complete charge.

THe NiMH cells DO NOT perform well over time in the single LED solar light applications. Their biggest problem is that they do not perform well when subjected to the charge/discharge conditions of a solar light environment (i.e. sitting totally discharged or at a very low charge for extended periods of time, never fully charging, extremely low charge currents, etc.)

The NiCd's are a MUCH better choice for a few reasons;

The perform better with extremely low charge currents than a NiMh.
They can tolerate being completely discharged for extended periods of time.
If you leave them out year round and live in an area that gets snow in the winter months (like me - MI), they tolerate the cold better.
The low capacities that they come in will perform better, because of the more complete charge discharge cycles.

There are more reasons why NiCD's are a better choice than NiMh cells for the solar light applications, but you get the idea.

I have been running many the above lights for up to 7 years now. Most of them are using the original 400/600/800 mA cells that they came with. I think I have had to replace 6 cells , out of total 32 cells.

As replacements, I bought some of the cheapie, Harbor Freight NiCd cells (600mA) and had ok results with them. One out of the 6 failed within the last 2 or 3 years.

My lights sit out there year round....even under 3 feet of snow sometimes. Guess what......they work just fine. Although they definitely DO NOT last nearly as long in the winter as they do in the summer. I would estimate they last about 40-60% as long in the winter as they do in the summer.

The one thing I do though...

Every summer I bring each set in and run them through either a Discharge refresh cycle on my BC900 or cycle them 3-5 times on my MH-C9000. This runs them through some COMPLETE charge discharge cycles and helps eliminate any adverse effects caused by the shallow charge/discharge cycles they get through the year.


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## learning (May 29, 2009)

Thank you. This makes perfect sense, but my lights are different in that they only need ONE AA cell each. We literally found these lights discarded in the woods behind my house. They had Sanyo 700mAh batteries in them. Eight little solar collectors on top comprise a 2" square. Any suggestion on what capacity batteries I should seek for these? We are in the Northeast, but the lights are situated in a place with full sun.


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## Genes (May 29, 2009)

I have been using NiMh batteries in my solar lights for years with few problems. Some of the Energizer 2600 Mah batteries are 2-3 years old and still work fine. If you check the design of some solar lights, you will find that they contain both a DC to DC converter, and a low voltage shutdown circuit. The beauty of the low voltage shutdown is that it keeps the batteries from fully discharging. My test have shown a large variance in charging current in full sunlight. During the summer months, the batteries get enough charge to last almost all night Frequently, the sun rises before the low voltage shutdown cuts in. 

The winter months are another issue. The long dark nights frequently run the LEDs until the low voltage shutdown starts to operate. If we have numerous gray, cloudy days, then the batteries only receive enough charge to operate the LEDs for 1-2 hours, before the low voltage shutdown turns them off. 

The biggest problem that I have seen is in the solar lights that use 2 AA batteries is battery unbalance. When one of the AA batteries gets in an unbalanced condition, frequently it will go into a reverse charging mode. When this happens, the entire charging cycle is disrupted and both batteries can start to fail. 

I have been rebuilding the solar lights using DC to DC converters that I get from Deal Extreme and using PICs from MicroChip to monitor the light level, battery voltage and vary the intensity of RGB LEDS to produce a continuously changing color pattern. The main problem that I have now is the DC to DC converters still consume some power even when the PIC has turned off the LEDs due to low voltage. When there are numerous dark cloudy days in a row, it is common to find the batteries in an unbalanced condition.


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## jayflash (Jun 1, 2009)

My young elm tree was looking sick and the arborist thought it may be suffering from Seasonal Affective Disorder (SAD) ... so I strung two 16' lengths of solar powered LEDs around the bare trunk. Yes, I'm joking about the SAD, but with the lights decorating my now dead tree, perhaps it might be considered a natural "Festivus" pole.


OK, enough fooling around; I do have a serious question. A single AA cell will keep the 50 purplish LEDs in each string lit for about 6 - 9 hours, depending on the amount of bright sun. The output from the solar pack is only 1.38 volts. I didn't know "white" LEDs had that low of a Vf. Could the voltage peak be higher, but the meter indicates the average output?


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## jayflash (Jun 7, 2009)

Any explanations regarding ~1.3 volts being able to drive the LEDs? I don't have a scope to determine whether a brief voltage peak higher than the LEDs Vf is the reason only "1.3v" will light them.

Thanks for any feedback.


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## VidPro (Jun 8, 2009)

jayflash said:


> Any explanations regarding ~1.3 volts being able to drive the LEDs? I don't have a scope to determine whether a brief voltage peak higher than the LEDs Vf is the reason only "1.3v" will light them.
> 
> Thanks for any feedback.


 
there is almost certannly a driver involved that ups the voltage, because the (err) properties of most of the leds are such that they require more voltage.
its the solid state gate thing that works at specific voltages to output specific frequencies of light, so that is true for most of the leds were familliar with.


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## jayflash (Jun 8, 2009)

Thanks for your reply VidPro. Yes, there is a blob "chip" on the PCB which raises the 1.2v from the single AA cell. However the voltage is only raised to 1.38 volts measured at the plug which connects with the string of 50 LEDs.

Purple/white LEDs have a much higher Vf than 1.3v, don't they? Perhaps I need to use the peak function for my RMS/averaging meter. I can only guess there's a higher voltage riding on the 1.38 the meter displays.


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## Black Rose (Jun 8, 2009)

White 5mm LEDs usually have a vf around 3.0v or higher.

Try using a different setting on your DMM.


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## jayflash (Jun 8, 2009)

These LEDs are tiny chips, but still, the ~ 3 volts sounds about right. My meter is an auto ranging Fluke 112, but I'll try manually selecting a low range and retest the next time I get the ladder out -- I mounted the solar packs up in the tree to try avoiding piled up snow and curious kids.


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## abvidledUK (Jun 16, 2009)

abvidledUK said:


> After replacing the nicd's with nimh's in a couple of my solar lights, which didn't do too well, I had a thought.
> 
> Recharging of alkaline batteries has been around for a while, dependent on topping up a not depleted battery, at low current.
> 
> ...



After an initial 2 week high brightness, the light has now settled down to a consistent medium level, original alkalines.

So, one month on, and OK


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## sunnybp (Jul 21, 2009)

The feature of NI-MH will be better that Ni-cd Battery. The most important is Ni-Cd battery has toxic material, so Ni-MH battery is the best.


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## LuxLuthor (Jul 21, 2009)

VidPro said:


> whatever is in there now sucks right? so get some cheap china batts , to start the process all over again
> then it will be just like NEW
> 
> its both, somehow it has to do 365 cycles a year, discharge low, and slow charge , plus if it goes to low, it wont be kicked back up again by the so slow solar cell.
> ...



LOL! I bought them too, and came to the same basic conclusion.


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## Beacon of Light (Jul 22, 2009)

abvidproled, any update on how the regular alkaline AAs are working for you in your solor lights? Are they staying lit all night long now compared to the 2-3 hour max of the NiCads? Any of them developing leaks at all?


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## HighlanderNorth (Oct 26, 2012)

*Is there anything different about rechargeable batteries made for solar porch lights?*

I have a customer who is immobile and he has 2 brands/styles of solar walkway/porch lights outside his home, and while over there about 4 weeks ago, he asked me to check on 4 of them that didnt seem to be working anymore, and he said he had already gone online to some battery website(not batteryjunction), but he said they no longer carried the batteries for the solar lamps. 

So I went out and removed the top off of the copper colored solar lamps that werent working, and removed the battery, but it was just a 600mah Ni Cad AA!! So I asked him if those were the type of batteries he had been looking for online, and he said he didnt realize they were AA's, but that when he had given the battery site the info about the solar lamps, they said they dont carry them and cant get them....(?)

I had previously recommended he buy that large Eneloop kit that comes with a bunch of AA and AAA batteries, and a charger, C and D battery tubes, etc. to be used around the house, since he goes through alkalines frequently, but he had also bought a Sony charger with 4 Sony 2000mah AA's that arent LSD, so I installed the Sony AA rechargeables into the lamps for now.

Then I checked the other style/brand of solar lamps he has, and they contain NiMh 600mah AA's, not the Ni Cad's of the other brand of lamps. Today he gave me an 8 pack of off-brand 600mah Ni Cad AA's to be installed into the lamps, so I removed the 2000mah Sony's and a few Eneloops I had added to the other style of solar lamps, and replaced them with the 600mah AA's. 

But I couldnt figure out why a major online battery site would tell him they dont carry rechargeable AA's for solar lamps anymore, unless they need a special rechargeable AA that is somehow different from the standard 2000 mah Sony or Sanyo or whatever. So, do these solar lamps need a special, low capacity type AA, and thats why there were 600mah Ni Cad and 600mah NiMh batteries in them from the factory, and why the online store said they didnt have them instead of just selling him Eneloops? Or did they just put 600mah batteries in the solar lamps from the factory because they are cheap? Will 2000 mah NiMh's work well in these solar lamps?:thinking:

I cant imagine these solar lamps with their small solar panels will ever fully charge a 2000mah Eneloop over the period of one day's sunlight.......

Thread Merge - Norm


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## Howecollc (Oct 26, 2012)

*Re: Is there anything different about rechargeable batteries made for solar porch lig*



HighlanderNorth said:


> But I couldnt figure out why a major online battery site would tell him they dont carry rechargeable AA's for solar lamps anymore,


Often when I've been told by the fellow behind the counter at O'Reillys that a slightly obscure auto part isn't available, someone else behind the counter tells the first fellow that it is, then shows him where to find it in the computer. Could be as simple as that, who knows. 

The short answer to the question "will a 2000 mAh NiMH (Eneloop or regular) work long-term in the light" is yes. I put an Eneloop AA in a solar powered cat statue for my Mom (the cell I took out was a non-working 600 mAh ni-cad). It's been in there for over two months now and keeps the cat lit all night long thru sunrise (about 12 hours a day right now). I've pulled the battery out every couple of weeks to check the voltage, and it's always been between 1.30 to 1.35 volts early in the evening, so it seems that the solar panels are capable of keeping it topped off.

I had also checked online prior to trying it out and found several Amazon posts by reviewer "N Lee the Engineer" where he's done quite a bit of research on the subject. He states emphatically that it works and since he may sound more convincing than I do I've included a few links to his posts, although I couldn't find the most thorough one.

http://www.amazon.com/solar-powered...S7ES2LA5TUHI/1?_encoding=UTF8&asin=B004RP2VNI

http://www.amazon.com/review/RHRT5874YS0V6

*
edit:
*
It's now 12-20-2012, so two more months of use in the cat statue. I had quit checking the voltage after last posting since it was always fully charged. After pulling the Eneloop out today it measured 1.26 volts, so the shorter hours of daylight and overcast winter skies have lessened the charge level, but not by too much. The longer nights are also making it run between 13.5 and 14 hours so that is certainly pulling the battery down further than before as well. However, the Eneloop is still running circles around any factory installed ni-cad.


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## Davidcee (Jun 28, 2013)

Mr Happy said:


> The cheaper priced NiCd is a good option.
> 
> I think the problem with eneloops in solar garden lights is not overcharging but over-discharging. The capacity is too high for them ever to reach a full charge in a day of sunlight, but at night the lights will run them right down to empty and beyond. NiCd can take deep discharge cycles much better than NiMH can.




Sorry for the lack of knowledge. ;-) but what is an "eneloops" ?


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## Mr Happy (Jun 28, 2013)

Davidcee said:


> Sorry for the lack of knowledge. ;-) but what is an "eneloops" ?



http://lmgtfy.com/?q=eneloop


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## Etsu (Jul 3, 2013)

I have used a set of solar garden lights for years. They came supplied with 600mah NiMH batteries, so it's certainly possible to use NiMH chemistry in solar lights. As a test, I replaced half of the lights with some older 2000mah NiMH batteries that I no longer used. Both the original 600mah and the 2000mah batteries are still going strong after 3 years of use.

This is in Canada, so I don't use them in the winter (the lights would be buried under 3 feet of snow). They stay lit all night during the spring and summer. But by later in autumn, they only stay lit a few hours, because they don't get much of a charge during the shorter and cloudier days.

So I'd say go ahead and use NiMH cells if you can find them cheaper than NiCad cells. They may not be quite as well suited, but they still last years.


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## DarkAlchemist (Aug 12, 2013)

Know what is really bad now? 2/3AA which means we are stuck with it and most of these lights have went over to them in the last couple of years. I wanted to go NiMH but I couldn't find any of the 2/3AA size (14mm, ~30-34mm) so stuck with what is in them. btw, would the Joule Thief type circuit in these work with a higher power white LED because some of these lights seem to offer about as much light as two fireflys in a jar.


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## skatsaros (Jun 10, 2015)

All of these products have boost circuits



jayflash said:


> Any explanations regarding ~1.3 volts being able to drive the LEDs? I don't have a scope to determine whether a brief voltage peak higher than the LEDs Vf is the reason only "1.3v" will light them.
> 
> Thanks for any feedback.


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