# MagCharger Heat Shield - Prelim Test Results



## Ginseng (Apr 21, 2004)

With the recent surge in interest in the use of high-power bulbs in the MagCharger, there will also likely be more reports of thermal damage from the increased power. The most popular drop-in upgrade is the WelchAllyn WA01160. This is a spec rated 5V, 3.45A, 17.25W unit that when pushed by the appropriate MC pack, reaches 6.05V, 3.5(?)A and 21.18W. This is a 2.5X increase over the stock bulb, which is an 8.4W unit. 

The damage is most likely to occur at the pin socket. This is a plastic slug with the two pin receivers embedded in it. The two pin receivers are connected to two metal contact tabs which make contact with mechanisms inside the metal lamp pedestal to complete the electrical circuit. I've 95% disassembled the MC switch/charger core and this plastic cylinder appears to be the most glaring weakpoint in the MC powertrain. It is unfortunate that it is at the one point in the entire light that will certainly be exposed to the most punishing conditions.

Since this area of highest stress is also readily accessible to the general user, I decided to see if an easy, drop-in solution could be developed to protect the stock part. This is desirable to the more robust, engineered solution of a purpose-built high temperature replacement part as disassembly of the MC is involved and difficult. 

To that end, I ordered and received a sample of clear mica in 0.29mm or 0.0115" thickness. This is the pure mineral as I have found that even 750F rated fiberglass insulation and mica composites were unable to withstand the temperatures that the bulb capsule reached. My contact thermocouple registered temperatures of over 560F, the point at which I stopped the test due to smoking of the TC lead insulation.

I machined circular disks from the mica slab and drilled three holes in it. Two for the bulb pins and one for the bulb "tail." Here are photos of the shield slipped over the bulb pins and the bulb and shield in place in my MC. You can see the it's some fine work as the two pin holes are just over 1mm in diameter and 4mm apart. The central hole is about 2.5mm in diameter. Don't mind the jaggedness of the outer edge. These were prototypes and the jaggedness does not detract from the thermal performance.







So how did it work? Well, not too bad at all and certainly far better than nothing at all. In this next pair of pictures, you'll see the pristine pin socket on the left and the same socket after a full-out 61.5 minute run with the WA01160 driven by a UMP nimh battery pack. How hot does it get? Well, hot enough that you can't hold your hand 3" in front of the bezel for more than 7 seconds. Hot enough that the beam will soften a plastic milk jug enough so that you can dent the softened wall with a finger. Hot enough so the the head is too hot to hold against the back of your neck.






The damage is very slight and is seen as a shallow melting in the area between the pin holes and the central tail hole. This is far less severe than the broader, deeper melting that has occured in my other MC.

While these results are promising, the single-thickness mica shield does not offer 100% protection. I can, however, recommend it as a sensible precaution for those who are running high-power bulbs in their MC, especially if they tend to run for more than 10 minutes at a pop. Keep in mind that I would consider this test exceptionally severe as I used a new bulb and a freshly charged high current, high capacity battery pack. 

I will continue the experimentation tomorrow with a double or triple thickness shield. The objective would be to prevent the glass tail from dropping into the socket hole and thus further insulating the bulb glass from the vulnerable socket. I believe that the range of the MC focusing cam would still allow one to achieve maximal beam tightness even if the bulb is lifted 2mm from the stock position.

Wilkey


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## Ross (Apr 22, 2004)

Good work Wilkey, interesting stuff. If you are going to sell them with your extension rings - sign me up!


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## bwaites (Apr 22, 2004)

I'm first in line for the "Wilkey insulation disks"!

What a great idea!

I love innovation and research!

Bill


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## Lightman (Apr 22, 2004)

Nice work Wilkey, The mica disk certainly seems help insulate the pedestal from excessive heat. I suspect that increasing the thickness of the disk will even further enhance its heat insulating capabilities. This means you will probably get more run time from the flashlight before the mica disk itself gets hot enough to melt the plastic slug. By the way, will you be planning to sell these mica disks. If you are I would be interested in buying some from you. If not could you tell us where you bought them from so that I may be able to buy them directly. Incidentally, I'm also looking into the possibility of custom making a ceramic plug that will totally replace the plastic one.


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## js (Apr 22, 2004)

Excellent, Wilkey. This is great news. As you point out, a mica drop-in is preferable to a total replacement of the pin socket, especially for the general user who doesn't have the tools or desire to 95 percent disassemble their MC. I'd think that if 10 mils helped this much, that 20 mils will be enough to be considered a complete success, even with an 1185, but I'm just guessing.

So, does this mean I can keep my ring-potted WA lamps I was going to send you, or do you still want to try the 1185 with the potting?


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## Phaserburn (Apr 22, 2004)

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Very nice; staying tuned.


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## jdriller (Apr 22, 2004)

Excellent, please keep me on the list. I run that gun for the full hour.


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## flashworm (Apr 22, 2004)

Great job there, keep us poseted if ur going to make more.


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## Ginseng (Apr 22, 2004)

Hi Guys,

Once I see how the thickened disks perform, I'll report back. Since this is such an important safeguard, I will send one out to anyone who sends me a SASE (self-addressed stamped envelope) and $1. Anyone who will be getting extension rings will get some thrown in, gratis as I assume you'll be using bulbs even more powerful than the WA01160.

Lightman, 
You may contact Serge Pakhomou at [email protected] for information. They have a variety of goods. Probably a good idea to check out their site at micasales.com. I'll make these for anyone who wants them as it's a bit of a pain to cut and drill pieces this small. If you make some ceramic replacements, I'd like to get on the list to evaluate them.

js,
If I may, I'd still like to try out your potted WA01185.

jdriller, 
So I could consider you an "extreme" user? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Wilkey


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## Phaserburn (Apr 22, 2004)

Very nice offer, Ginseng. Thanks!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif


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## bmsmith (Apr 22, 2004)

Wilkey,

While these "heat shields", as they could be called, stop much of the radiant heat produced by the bulb, what about the heat transfer of the bulb glass to the bulb pins? The mica won't reduce that aspect of the heat problem, right? One thing that could help is some sort of thermal mass attached to the bulb pins just before the pins go into the plastic socket, similar to the spring-loaded soldering clips used to temporarily protect delicate items from excessive heating due to the soldering process. Any thoughts about bulb pin heat transfer (thermal conductance, I suppose it is called), or is it your feeling that the majority of damaging heat is infrared radiant heat?


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## Ginseng (Apr 23, 2004)

BM,

You raise a very good point. The conductive component is certainly not negligible. When I pulled out bulbs after any length of burn, the pins are always quite warm. The difficulty in implementing a heat sink solution is that thermal conductivity tends to go hand in hand with electrical conductivity. Thus, a maximally conductive solution would involve something like a copper or brass assembly that grips both pins. The problem, of course, is that you then short the circuit. I suppose it would be possible to design a very small sink with two isolated yet grippy miniature claws...but I wouldn't want to make it. And it probably wouldn't be secure against shock. If you can think of a robust, easy to make and install design, I'd love to check it out.

Wilkey


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## Lightman (Apr 23, 2004)

Hi Ginseng,

Thank you for the contact. I will probably order some from them as well. I will be glad to send you some ceramic replacements as soon as I can get some made up. My first task will be to dismantle the Magchager which I gather is no easy task. Once I can get the plastic plug out, I should be able to make a exact ceramic casting of it. I shall let you know how it goes.


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## Bullzeyebill (Apr 23, 2004)

Streamlight and TigerLight LA's solve heat to pins, and in SL (don't have TigerLight) pins attach directly to switch wires. Also, SL Ultra bulbs have an insulated board between bulb and bare pins.

Bill


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## Phaserburn (Apr 23, 2004)

What are the specs on the SL and TL LA's? I can't seem to find them anywhere, and wonder how they compare to the WA lamps for voltage and current requirements, and of course, lumens.


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## Ginseng (Apr 23, 2004)

Lightman,
Let me know if you need some pointers. I should have taken pictures when I did it last. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Bill,
I believe you will still get pretty good conduction of heat down the pins in either case. Reason being, while the ceramic plug is an insulator that would serve to protect things on the "outside" of the rear of the LA, heat would nevertheless be conducted down the metal pins. It must as an energy balance would indicate. The energy balance would also involve an analysis of how much heat is radiated from the exposed portion of the bare pins, how much heat that would otherwise be radiated which is instead conducted down the pins due to the insulating ceramic plug and how much radiative energy is recaptured by the pins and surrounding area. Unfortunately, I am too many years out of college to do an anlysis of this complexity. What is certain is that the ceramic plug would serve to protect the plastic pin socket slug. What is not certain is how much it would help protect the actual pin receivers themselves. Attaching to pin receivers crimped to insulated wires (as in the SL and TL) is probably not a bad thing. Without a huge block of plastic surrounding the pins, heat probably gets out as fast as it gets in.

Phaser,
I have not found any published specs for the TL LA. But then I haven't looked really hard. The SL-35X LA is described in the SL handbook as a "6 volt 20 watt" unit. This makes it a nominal 3.33A bulb, basically identical to a WA01111 in terms of power demand. There is no luminous output data, however, making a more rigorous comparison with the '11 impossible. Once I get MC1 back from repair, I will post beamshots of the SL-35X LA and the MC11, both driven by a UMP. The hottest SL-20X unit is 6V10W or 1.67A nominal. 

Perhaps js can chime in here on the TL LA. We know it's 7.2V. I think tests have shown about a 1.7A draw. That would make it 12V unit, well underpowered compared to the analogous WA01274, a 7.2V 2.77A, 20W unit. 

Wilkey


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## js (Apr 23, 2004)

Phaserburn,

All I can tell you about the SL-35X LA is regarding overdriving it to 7.2 V (nominal) at which voltage it draws 3.6A yielding 26 watts.

Ginseng's numbers are the same as mine regarding the stock TL LA: 7.2 V, 1.7 A and just over 12 watts.

As far as the SL-35X at 6.0 volts, I seem to remember someone saying it was a 400 lumen lamp assembly, but I don't remember who said that or where I read it. My ballpark torch-lumens figure for the SL-35X is 560 lumens or around 750 bulb-lumens. Just a guess, though. My experience with an over driven 1111 (7.2 volts drive vs. 6.0 volt design) bears out this estimate, because I find the 35X to be comparable to the 1111 in terms of both output and wattage. The 1111 is slightly higher wattage, but not by much (a watt more at most) and the WA re-rating formulas yield 880 bulb-lumens at this drive.

Hope this helped.


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## Ginseng (Apr 23, 2004)

*Comparative Beamshots SL-35X LA, WA01111*

My MC came back today so I pulled stuff together to make some shots.

Here are some comparative shots of the WA01111 bulb versus the Streamlight SL-35X LA installed in a MagCharger. All photo pairs taken with locked exposure. Both bulbs driven by a freshly charged and rested UMP nimh pack. 

*1. Bookcase Shot*
In this shot, the MC11 (5-cell pack driving the WA01111) is focused down to its tightest spot. While the hotspot is brighter than that of the comparable SL-35X LA, the transition to spill is much, much more abrupt. So much so that in the shot, it looks like the SL-35X LA is making more light. The ceiling bounce test does not support this and in fact shows that the "integrated" light output is identical to the eye. The SL-35X LA works its magic by the special surface finish on the reflector. Pictures below. This finish results in a very smooth overall beam as has been noted by other testers, most recently S4MadMan. 





*2. Blank Wall Shot*
In this shot, the MC11 was defocused to a slightly greater extent than the bulb in the SL-35X LA. You can make out the characteristic "batwing" bilobe shape of filament in the Mag reflector. If you look carefully, you'll see the same feature in the SL-35X LA. This indicates that in addition to the finish on the SL-35X LA, the overall diffusion is aided by a certain degree of defocus. This explains the seeming paradox of why the SL-35X LA has such great flood but still seems to throw well. In reality, side-by-side tests show the SL-35X LA throw to be diminished very significantly by about 200 feet while the Mag reflector throws quite a bit farther, if somewhat dimly. 





*3. The Two Reflectors Shot*
Here we see the primary reason for the performance of the SL-35X LA versus the MC11 or any smooth Mag-reflectored mod. The finish on the Streamlight reflector is non-sputtered and non-polished. In fact, it could best be described as "satiny." While the profile of the spun reflector is not nearly as precise as that of the Mag reflector, the satin finish and defocus renders the point moot. For the eagle-eyed, you'll notice that the WA01111 is a rounded top, bottom-fill bulb (like the Carley bulbs) while the bulb in the SL unit is a nipple headed, top-fill bulb (like the Tigerlight bulbs).





Bottom line, any given bulb in a Mag reflector will throw like a maniac. The SL-35X LA, however, seems to be designed to deliver a smooth beam without using any expensive post-processing like buffing, coating or sputtering. I think they just left it as the bare, unfinished surface. I imagine that if one wanted to, it would be possible to replicate the diffusion performance of the SL reflector by sand blasting an MC reflector. Why would anyone want to do this? The same two reasons why I now run MC#1 with the SL-35X LA for a bedstand light while the MC#2 with the stock reflector is kept downstairs with various batteries for fun and testing. First, the throw is more than sufficient for spotting anything in the immediate vicinity of the house and grounds (up to 100 feet). Second, the smooth spot+flood beam allows rapid and ready acquisition of targets in the short to medium (5-40-foot) range. For me, that means mainly raccoons and the neighborhood cats but I imagine that for the tactical user, the spot+flood would be the preferred pattern for house clearing and other dangerous, fast-react activities.

Wilkey


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## Lightman (Apr 23, 2004)

*Re: Comparative Beamshots SL-35X LA, WA01111*

Ginseng,

I shall welcome any pointers from you as you have already taken one apart. Your experience will really make things easier. I also agree with you and Wilkey on the heat transfer to the pins itself. I am hoping that the conduction of heat from the pins will be adequate enough to dissipate heat fast enough so that the pins itself don't overheat.


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## udaman (Apr 23, 2004)

Ok, some of my questions have been answered already, but here are some other thoughts I had:

I hope you don’t mind I copied and highlighted the areas of melting in question on your picture; http://img34.photobucket.com/albums/v103/udaman/BATSetal/micashieldprepost.jpg 



1. High-temperature auto engine silicon, does it conduct or can it insulate the pins if applied directly to them, for use with the mica mod?

2. Can the bulb tail be grinded with Dremel, or filed down 1mm or so with narrow files? (assuming this does not compromise the envelope such that it cracks or breaks from heat stress).

3. Can we have any additional pics of the MC disassembly, specifically the 5% part not yet attempted, what is involved with that 5%; and where are the difficulties specifically, that might be better illustrated with pictures?

4. Other than this specific plastic part identified as the main weak link, are there any other parts you would then consider weak links? How much current do you think the standard MC switch can handle, now that you’ve been playing with these for a while…do you have pictures of partial meltdowns, so we might estimate the maximum current one might expect these to handle?

5. If you used JS’s high temp. potting compound on the pins like he used for the WA01185 on the TL upgrade thread<font color="blue">*[1.]*</font>, maybe this would help---just a little dab at the point the pins come out of the glass envelope? While the application is different and the amount of heat you are trying to avoid is much smaller; if you look at home/commercial building insulation foam panels, you can find that they usually have a metalized reflective layer placed on at least on side of the panel. I was thinking you could put a layer of this on the mica piece, to further reflect heat towards the front end of the light, which would be thinner than 2 pieces of mica. 

6. Can you provide as a reference: organized list/chart of all of the bulbs you have tested---WITH specific manufacturer/capacity/size cells-packs for each bulb, with guestimates as to which are the ones that will be causing the most problems? In other words, do you have any feeling as to whether there is more damage from current being delivered v. heat of the actual higher wattage the bulbs are burning at? Say you have 12v axial bulbs, therefore less current draw than the overdriven 6, 7.2v bulbs. Using extender tubes<font color="blue">*[2.]*</font>, would you think we would still see heat damage not necessarily from transfer of heat from the glass envelope to the bi-pins, but more so from these higher currents running through the bi-pins, which I would think is more than enough to cause some melting---12v overdriven 35,50-75w bulbs, or is it your experience that most of the melting is limited primarily to the bulb itself? IIRC, you tested the WA01185 with 9 NiMH AA’s in the MagC, batts, bulbs, pics thread<font color="blue">*[3.]*</font>. Now I’m assuming the use of 2000ma NiMH per the High-current v high capacity thread<font color="blue">*[4.]*</font>, which by your own admission are whimpy (“massive voltage drop” and inability to supply the current that a RC use NiMH was capable of…as far as how much they may stress a bulb in possibly causing shortened life/flashing<font color="blue">*[5.]*</font>) compared to the UMP or standard MC pack <font color="blue">*[6.]*</font>. AFAIK, since 9 1/2D cell NiMH have yet to be tested with the WA01185(JS’s A cell sized NiMH TL upgrade tests notwithstanding<font color="blue">*[1.]*</font>; I will wonder how much additional heat or problems this combination might prove to involve(eagerly await your testing results)?

7. On an auto bulb upgrade such as your 80/100w WRX, I’m guessing you needed to install a heavy duty wiring kit, I know I had to? Standard gauge auto wires to the plastic connector socket for the H4 bulbs get too hot from the *current*(I am told) they carry with the 80/100w and the plastic male socket connector melts. Upgrade to thicker wires prevents this. The higher wattage, larger size 12v axial bulbs have thicker bi-pins, so I’m wondering if they get quite as hot when carrying the greater currents? The racing/off-road higher wattage PIAA 130/180 H4’s come as ceramic base, due to the amount of heat they generate, it would see the ceramic replacement part Lightman is proposing would be more ideal, if we could all figure out how to do the ‘difficult’ disassembly/reassembly part.

8. Another thought, there are high-temperature ceramics used in auto engine bays, reflective metal tape for engine headers…anyway to use these? I’m thinking that if a majority of the heat can be reflected forward, this might help in this situation. I wonder if these reflective layers, or metalized chips used in home insulation applications might also be used to reflect (and therefore insulate better) heat forward from the bulb pins. http://www.savenrg.com/sample.htm

9. I have a small sheet of thin asbestos, lying around somewhere. I wonder if this would work better or about the same...thought given your chemistry background, you might know.

10. Used dentistry drills will get you smaller holes than your initial mica disk. But with larger size bi-pin bulbs, the holes you have now are probably perfect.

Thank you again Ginseng, for your reference work.


CPF References:

1.	JS’s TL upgrade thread  The TigerLight Upgrade Thread 
2. Ginseng’s Mag extender tubes thread  Interest? MagD/MagCharger Extension Rings 
3. Ginseng’s MagC, batts, bulbs, picts, thread. MagCharger Mods: Batteries, Bulbs and Pictures
4. Ginseng’s high-cap v. high-current thread High Current v. High Capacity Cells - Updated
5. Another SL-35 approach… thread Another SL-35X possibility...
6. Ginseng’s UMP(lower half performing pack) v standard MC pack Prelim Testing: Stock MagCharger Battery vs. UMP


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## Ginseng (Apr 24, 2004)

Lightman,
I _am_ Wilkey /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif. On recent full pack runs, I've had a bit of sticking when pulling the bulb out. I think it is still due to the newness of the pin receivers and not any internal melting...but I can't be sure. I'll work up a little instruction list and PM it to you.

Udda,
Let me try and take a whack at your points.
1. What engine silicon are you talking about. Maybe some sort of alumina paste like the Cotronics ceramic adhesives? Some of those are good for 3,000F or better. It is an electrical and thermal insulator and in fact is what js is using in his potted WA bulbs for the TL upgrade. See his thread for more details.

2. The tail is where the gas fill is done and it has a metallic spring that protrudes up through the capsule itself. I suspect that cutting it off would open the bulb up to the atmosphere and destroy it. 

3. I'll send directions to lightman and let him take one apart. Perhaps he'll post pictures. Since it's involved, I'd rather not do it again until I have a compelling reason to do so.

4. They have taken 3.5A with no problems. I can subject a spare Mag D switch to higher currents (I can supply 4.8A and increments up to 10A) and observe the results. This would make an interesting study but not one I have time for right now. Good idea to document the progression of destruction though. I would not do that to the MC as the switch is not user replaceable.

5. Again, interesting idea. I had thought about using an IR reflective film. Problem is, many are on polyester substrates and thus incapable of surviving the heat. The best solution would be a layer of very thin gold foil or gold embossing or gilding film. I recall that the lunar landers and various parts of orbiting devices are wrapped in gold foil for IR rejection.

6. Ummm, maybe?

7. Higher gauge wiring is a good idea. Most wire use references are based on amperage I think. Although total power must figure in there somehow. Big thick pins would have relatively low resistance. I don't know what the AWG equivalent would be although there are plenty of charts for cross referencing.

8. Engine wrap is probably too thick although I have not tried it. Those RBS chips appear to be nothing more than chopped up pieces of vacuum metallized polyester film. In other words, like window film. The PET base would not take the heat. Vacuum metallization is how the aluminum film is deposited on D and C reflectors.

9. Asbestos sheet should be fine. As long as it is pure compressed sheet. I've found that almost anything that has a binder, like phenol formaldehyde, epoxy, etc. to hold the fibers or plates together scorches by the heat of the bulb.

10. Dremel makes pretty small drill bits. I haven't got a steady enough hand to use those though. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Wilkey


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## Lightman (Apr 24, 2004)

Hi Wilkey,

Silly me /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/twakfl.gif I kept thinking that Genseng and Wilkey were two different guys. Thanks for putting me on the right track. Thank you also in advance for the instruction on disassembly. I am sure it will come in very handy when I start the project.


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## SilverFox (Apr 24, 2004)

Hello Wilkey,

I find the combination that ends up as the SL 35X very pleasing to use. It is a great beam. I think TigerLight could take a lesson on this.

Tom


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## Ginseng (Apr 24, 2004)

It seems TigerLight's got all sorts of problems right now. If it were my place to do so, I'd suggest they contract someone like Jim as a consultant to help them iron some of these issues out. Batteries, bulbs, multiple generations of LAs and bodies out there and no one knows for sure when these revs were slipstreamed. I have to say, great product concept hampered by a multitude of execution errors. 

I'm beginning to think that an analysis of the three major rechargeable duty lights would lead to a sweet spot of design and performance. 

Wilkey


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## ubermensch (Apr 24, 2004)

Mine looks a little more messed up





It seems that the accursed nipple was touching the plastic and thus melted it.


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## js (Apr 25, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*Ginseng said:*
It seems TigerLight's got all sorts of problems right now. If it were my place to do so, I'd suggest they contract someone like Jim as a consultant to help them iron some of these issues out. Batteries, bulbs, multiple generations of LAs and bodies out there and no one knows for sure when these revs were slipstreamed. I have to say, great product concept hampered by a multitude of execution errors. 

I'm beginning to think that an analysis of the three major rechargeable duty lights would lead to a sweet spot of design and performance. 

Wilkey 

[/ QUOTE ]

Wilkey,

This seems a bit overstated to me. Any of the TL LA, Gen 1-3, are pretty darn good, even if you get a "bad" one. I know because my first LA (Gen 2) was below average and it was still a really excellent light, especially for $125. Actually, I got mine used from Phaserburn for less, but it would have been a great deal even at full manufacturer's retail. When I replaced my LA with a Gen 3 lamp, it was so much the better. Gravy, as it were.

The different TL bodies issue is also rather minor. For someone like me who is constantly changing out battery packs and lamps, the over-large o-ring at the head of the light with its' tendency to catterpillar is a bit of a pain--but not much: I just run a finger nail along the groove at a certain point of turn down and then I am good to go for the rest of the turn down. Yet, most users only open the light up once in a great while to change a lamp or battery pack, so it's no big deal. The light IS sealed against water entry.

I would and do unhesitatingly recommend the stock TigerLight to anyone who needs a bright, rugged, rechargeable light. Still, point taken, and TL will fix all the minor issues mentioned with a bit more time.

As for TL hiring me as a consultant--NO WAY! I'm no where near qualified. Are you free, Wilkey? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Seriously, though, a paid consultant should have an engineering degree and experience in the field he or she is consulting on. Just my opinion, but it certainly rules me out.


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## Ginseng (Apr 25, 2004)

Jim,
That's fine. Different take on the same situation. Of course I'm speaking from the perspective of never having even touched a TL so make of my comments what you will. It's just that I have experience with Mags and more recently MagChargers and have spoken with folks who have used and abused their MCs. I've yet to hear of any problems of the type that have cropped up with the TL. Whatever the case, both are worthy lights and the choice the user makes is simply a matter of taste and personal needs.
Wilkey

PS. I'm still waiting for my call from Mr. Maglica /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif


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## Ginseng (Apr 25, 2004)

Uber, 

I think the double thickness shield might have helped you. It's proving very effective in my recent testing. Part of the reason is increasing the distance from the tail hole. At this point, I'm not entirely sure it would be of much help but I'll send you some discs if you want. A ceramic replacement might be the better solution for you.

Wilkey


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## ubermensch (Apr 25, 2004)

I was playing around last night--the obvious downside to having the bulb spaced further from the pin-holes is that it reduces the ability to achieve a tight focus. But I'll take you up on that offer Ginseng.


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## js (Apr 26, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*Ginseng said:*
Jim,
That's fine. Different take on the same situation. Of course I'm speaking from the perspective of never having even touched a TL so make of my comments what you will. It's just that I have experience with Mags and more recently MagChargers and have spoken with folks who have used and abused their MCs. I've yet to hear of any problems of the type that have cropped up with the TL. Whatever the case, both are worthy lights and the choice the user makes is simply a matter of taste and personal needs.
Wilkey

PS. I'm still waiting for my call from Mr. Maglica /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif 

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. Different take on the same thing: that's all I meant in my addendum. These things sometimes come with the small-company territory.

BTW, I almost called you this weekend posing as a lawyer from Kodak regarding your "Insta-Flash" use infringement. It was going to cost you $5000 for a license to use the term for one year. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I just didn't think I could pull it off without laughing. I thought of a few good names for my lawyer personna, though.


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## udaman (Apr 26, 2004)

[ QUOTE ]
*Lightman said:*
Hi Wilkey,

Silly me /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/twakfl.gif I kept thinking that Genseng and Wilkey were two different guys. Thanks for putting me on the right track. Thank you also in advance for the instruction on disassembly. I am sure it will come in very handy when I start the project. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Lightman, if you know what the final 5% of the "95%" disassembly of the MC consists of, could you please post pictures, and discussion of what might be involved with that further disassembly.

I think it would be instructive for all as a reference, if you could post pictures of the disassembly, along with Ginseng's instructions, tools needed, or different methods/tools you used to do the disassembly. That way, if anyone else wishes to attempt the 'difficult' disassembly/ or re-assembly? process they would have an idea what is involved, and if they feel they can manage. 

Your ceramic replacement part seems ideal, but if it turns out feasible, how much would it likely cost?

TIA


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## udaman (Apr 26, 2004)

UM, be a mensch; please let us know which upgrade has caused your problems. Standard BP, w/WA1160, UCL; or Ginseng style UMP, w/1160 or another bulb? I was hoping Ginseng would post a chart/list of bulbs/battery sizes, brands, capacities; combinations he has tested with his suspicions as to which are more likely to cause the most heat problems.


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## Ginseng (Apr 26, 2004)

Keeripes Uda,

My threads should give some indication of which bulbs pose the most risk. In fact, you listed one of them in the bibliography of your last monster post. I go out of my way to try and be helpful but you're testing even my patience. Like most folks, I don't enjoy being guilted or wheedled into things /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif I don't spend all my waking hours on CPF and when I do come on-board, I try to bring value, information and a high signal to noise ratio to my communications. If that's not good enough, well, sorry. It's all I can do. 

There, now you've gone and ticked me off. That's not at all easy to do but you've done it...and I'm disappointed in myself that I felt I had to respond in this manner. Well, now to take a much needed break from CPF. 

Wilkey

BTW, the most prevalent aftermarket bulb used in the MC is the WA01160. It's so popular that FlashlightLens.com offers this bulb by itself and as part of a MC package. If you were curious as to whether or not it was a UMP he was using, a quick look at the very first post in my UMP GB thread would have answered your curiosity. All the participants are right there.


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## Ginseng (Apr 26, 2004)

Ubermensch,

You have PM.

Wilkey


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## ubermensch (Apr 27, 2004)

Standard pack, WA01160 (occasionally stock & WA01111), and UCL (don't know how the lens could cause this)--I think I might have crammed the bulb further into the holders than I was supposed to. I don't know, still works just fine though.


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## Lightman (Apr 28, 2004)

Udaman,

I just PM'ed Wilkey on the disassembly instructions that he sent me. I am short of a strap wrench and I adjustable pin spanner. Once I can get a hold of them I shall start the disassembly. I have also made arrangements for the ceramic plugs to be made once I can get the original plastic one out as a sample. Initial run will be about 50 pieces. At the moment a friend who has contacts with a factory that makes ceramic products has agreed to make them for free. So I guess I should be able to send them out for free as well. The only thing is that anyone who wants them will have to pay for the postage. Which will be determined later.

Of course all this will depend on whether it will be feasible to get the plug out without any permanent damage to the pedestal.

Andrew


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## Ginseng (Apr 28, 2004)

Andrew,
If there is strong demand for the ceramic plug, I can offer to act as your North American agent for distribution. Thanks for your effrot and involvement.

I just finished a batch of shields. I'll be shipping to Brightnorm, Bwaites, Wildcat tomorrow. I have a few more ready to go. Remember, PM me for an address, then send $1 and a SASE (self-addressed, stamped envelope) and I'll get one out to you as long as I have mica left.

Wilkey


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## bwaites (Apr 28, 2004)

I'm in for the ceramic piece, (actually I'll need at least 3)

Ginseng, I'm going to paypal you some money soon, I'll let you know when its on the way!

Any extra you can count as a down payment on an Aurora!!

Bill


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## jdriller (Apr 29, 2004)

PM sent


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## brightnorm (May 1, 2004)

Just received the shields from Wilkey and put two in with my 01160. Ubermensch mentioned a negative effect on tight focus which I'll check tonight, but I would expect the MAG's focusability to neutralize that problem.

Thanks Wilkey!
Brightnorm


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## ubermensch (May 1, 2004)

I don't have the shields yet, but I was tinkering around with the bulb spacing--when it was spaced more than a millimeter or two out, I couldn't get the "classic bowtie" focus, i.e, the cam moves the reflector in the wrong direction to achieve a tight focus (I think).


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## Ginseng (May 1, 2004)

Yep, that would be about right. The cam is quite short. You can force the bulb to sit a little deeper in, up to 4 mm. To do this, you have to insert a springy metal loop, like a shim between the plastic socket slug and the metal frame/collar around it. Push the plug down, insert the spring, then let it come back up and push against the inside edge of the collar. Not something I recommend. The better solution entails inserting a tubular spacer from the inside of the pedestal but you have to disassemble the light to get to that part.

Wilkey


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## brightnorm (May 1, 2004)

Just tried it briefly (9:10PM). I don't get a bowtie beam; for some reason my 01160 with two shields can focus to a pretty decent central hotspot with the corona/surround slightly lopsided, but that central spot can superimpose itself upon the Surefire M6's HOLA beam (only tested at about 35') even though the M6 puts out more light.

I'll try for a longer throw test later tonight although on Saturday night the sidewalks are usually jammed and using my usual "vertical throw" position may be problematic. 

I'll post if I can make any useful observations.

Brightnorm


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## udaman (Sep 21, 2004)

Ok then, maybe we can get js to get a sample pack of ceramic sheets, and these will work to cut into a circle and have on supply at www.flashlightlens.com? 

Cotronics-ceramic papers


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## js (Sep 21, 2004)

udaman,

What? Am I the Cotronics CPF dealer or something? LOL!

I guess I could _ask_ them if they would send me a free sample pack. After all, I must be in their top 10 list of buyers due to my MASSIVE purchase of a quart of their 940LE, which cost me a whopping $64.95 plus shipping. That's right, I'm a shaker and a mover. A big man around the Cotronics stock room.

Jim: [phones cotronics then says in a suave, confident voice] Ah, hello there, this is [emphasis]Jim Sexton . . . [pause for effect]

Cotronics employee: Who?

Jim: Jim Sexton.

Employee: And how can I help you, sir?

Jim: I'm sure you remember me. I'm the guy who bought an entire QUART of the 940LE.

Employee: Is there a problem, sir?

Jim: No. No problem, but I was hoping you could send me some free samples of the cermaic sheets.

Employee: I'm not finding your merchant account, sir. Do you have a merchant account?

Jim: Ah, [delicately], well, not _yet_.

Employee: Well, I'm sorry sir, but only merchants who spend more than $5000 anually get free samples of anything.

Jim: [YELLING]FIVE GRAND? What do you think I am, loaded or something? [hangs up]

***

Yeah, that'd be about the size of it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/awman.gif


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## Ginseng (Sep 21, 2004)

Hahaha, 

Ahhhhh, I needed that. Thanks Jim. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Wilkey


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## ODatsBright (Feb 15, 2005)

I haven't read this thread all the way through in it's entirity so the answer might be up there somewhere. I did a WA01111 mod, a Mag11BP, and smoked a plug. I had to trim the pins on the bulb to get it to focus right but after an extened run, about 15min, it started dimming and when I looked at it, the bulb had melted the plastic and smoked up the reflector. Reading the posts this seems to only be a slight problem but for me it's gonna be expensive replacing the slugs this often. 

Have I done the mod wrong or is this a common issue that warrants only brief use of the modded light?


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## Ginseng (Feb 15, 2005)

It is going to be an ongoing factor in the use of these lights. Considering that the stock MC components were designed for 8.4W bulbs. The WA01111 comes in at 20W, minimum. The WA01185 at 30W. 

If I can get a hold of some more slugs, I will take a look at whether the socket surface can be trimmed away and still maintain good pin-grip.

The other, better option is to have an identical cam hole drilled and tapped but 3mm higher on the sleeve body. This would allow the bulb to be kept higher and away from the slug surface and still maintain focus. Unfortuantely, I do not have the capability to do this operation. Still, this might be the next step in the evolution of this mod.

Wilkey


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## bwaites (Feb 15, 2005)

hmmmm.....

I haven't smoked anything in any of mine, (been using a couple MagChargers for around a year like this.) Some melting, but no burning and the slugs still work fine even with the cosmetic damage. 

I wonder about replacing the plastic with a ceramic plug, I'll try to look at this when I get a chance.

Bill


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## LEDmodMan (Feb 15, 2005)

Wilkey,
I actually disassemmbled the plastic plug piece (there are two halves that slide together) after pushing it out of the metal slug and I don't see why the top couldn't be trimmed off down to where the the pin sockets actually are. I would bet that you could take off about 1/8" of the glass-filled plastic. Use a sanding disc or better yet a cut-off wheel in a dremel tool. 

Actually, now that I think about it, what if we were to go ahead and cut the top of it off, and then slide it back into the metal carrier slug to where it would normally sit. Next, insert similarly sized wires into the bi-pin sockets (like paper clips) to plug them, and finally, backfill the gap inside of the metal slug at the top with a little bit of the cotronics ceramic stuff js uses? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif The wires used to plug the pin sockets could then be removed one the cotronics had cured, and the slug could then be used as normal, but with much increased temperature capacity. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

This would almost be the ultimate fix. I may have even just given myself another improvement idea wrt the pr to bi-pin base I'm working on. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif


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## ODatsBright (Feb 15, 2005)

My solution to this and if someone else had more capabilities than I, would to be machine a 'new' slug 'cap' out of Macor. I have bought a 3" piece of 1/2" macor rod, good to 1475°F and will attempt to make such a cap this weekend on my uncles mill/drill/lathe. I'll also redrill the housing and tap it 3mm higher. Another 'upgrade' for most people would be to have a pile of new 'wheels' made; swap out the stock cam wheel for one that is 6mm larger. That should set the slug 3mm deeper for proper focus as well. Both mods would take care of focus problems as well as heat issues.


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## Ginseng (Feb 15, 2005)

I love it when all brains align. LEDModMan,

That's an excellent idea. Please let us know how it turns out. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

And of course...pictures please!

Wilkey


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## KevinL (Feb 16, 2005)

Have you guys seen THIS awesome piece of work?

We may never need to deal with BP slugs or heat shields again..


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## ODatsBright (Feb 16, 2005)

Getting out my dial calipers and taking measurements it looks rather hard for me to be able to produce this 'cap' out of macor. I think my best bet will be to face off the slug and make a simple cap out of the macor. I'll see what I can come up with. I really envy those of you who can 'play' on all that high end CNC equipment!


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## ODatsBright (Feb 18, 2005)

Hmm, I seem to be quite a thread killer. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

I drilled a hole 3mm higher and used the stock 1111 bulb in a new core and after a short runtime noticed its starting to melt as well. I know this is a common problem but I can't seem to think that most people replace the cores that often or don't use their lights for more than a few minutes at a time. What do I seem to be missing? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif


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## juancho (Feb 18, 2005)

As I am interested to run the BP 1111 and the 1185 for the 20 minutes or so straight until the batteries quit, what I really wanted to know is if the mica shield really help in the extremes rundowns.
Anybody have tried it??
If the mica really works with these bulbs, I don't think is too much of a problem to hunt down an old iron (maybe at a yard sale) They used to have plenty of mica insulation inside.
O. K. guys, your input and experiences with the mica shield will be appreciated.
Juan C.


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## bwaites (Feb 18, 2005)

I've used Wilkey's Mica shields in MagChargers since last year. Some running 1160's, some running 1185's, some without heat shields.

I've seen melting, but not failures without heat shields. 

The heat shields allow very little melting, at least in the 1160's where I have run them the most. I guess I'll have to do some 1185 full runs and see what happens!

Bill


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## wasBlinded (Apr 2, 2005)

I wonder if the mica shields would be even more effective if given a reflective surface by painting with high temperature silver paint (like brake caliper paint)?

Paint adhesion to mica might be a problem, but is shouldn't seem much abrasion.


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## Ginseng (Apr 2, 2005)

Perhaps. That's not a bad idea.

Wilkey


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## juancho (Apr 2, 2005)

What we need is a ceramic disk about 2mm thick with 2 holes for the bi-pins. This disc will go *inside * the slug on front of the fiberglass connector.
Juan C.


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## Ginseng (Apr 2, 2005)

Juan, 

Actually, there need to be 3 holes. A 2mm hole dead center and two flanking holes along the diameter that are 1mm in diameter and 4mm on center. BTW, what fiberglass connector?

Wilkey


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## BlueRap (Apr 16, 2009)

I'm a new guy. But I need and use a flashlight for work. Have you used or has anyone tried to use silicone, like cook ware as an insulator against the heat of a Philips 5761 bulb? How much is your extender?

Tim


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