# Tactical strobe..Does it work?????



## mpkav (Jun 13, 2009)

Hey all, I've been a police officer for 8 years and just now got my first light with the strobe feature. I don't know anyone who has actually used the strobe to disorient or blind someone. I've only ever seen officers blinding officers in pure boredom!!!! Does anyone have a story where it has been useful? Blinding a suspect, maybe an attacking dog, an angry wife!!!
Is it useful or just something to play with???


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## NonSenCe (Jun 13, 2009)

best i have heard is that it gives you that "blink and you loose" split second advantage. 

suprised blink of the other one might just give you that small edge or time you need to get the upper hand. something like drawing gun mace baton and use it while camouflaging your movement with bright strobe. 

i personally dont see it useful.


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## jzmtl (Jun 13, 2009)

I've strobed myself with several brands of light, they are annoying but not anymore useful than just max setting. Perhaps if you are running around with it, it may be harder to identify your exact location.


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## gsxrac (Jun 13, 2009)

Well I point it in my face and I go AHH!!! So all in all id say it works ok? Not quite as intimidating or effective as just showing em your muzzle flash though?

And to answer your question a little more directly I dont remember hearing anyone on this forum say anything about blinding suspects/ attackers with a strobe. I have used one to alert traffic to a vehicle recovery that was going on in a big snow storm around a blind corner though.


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## Lumenshroom (Jun 13, 2009)

Eh, I wouldn't rely on it.


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## AusKipper (Jun 14, 2009)

When i got my TK40 on the first day i got my sister to attack me (mucking around, not serious..) and tried both the strobe modes, and the turbo mode.

In summary, there was no real difference between strobe and turbo mode. In both modes she was still able to run towards me, but unable to look directly at me. 

Using strobe mode did not cause her to lose her balance or become disorientated in any way (I asked her and she said the effect was about the same she was able to see my feet and run towards them, however was unable to look directly at my face)

Using a torch may give you a slight edge in a hand to hand fight, but really all it does is stop them looking at you for that instance.

You will not be able to strobe an attacker and run expecting him to be in a stunned state for any amount of time. He will be following you as soon as you turn around 

If you want to try and see, strobe yourself in the bathroom mirror.


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## Robocop (Jun 14, 2009)

I have been an officer for 12 years now and all 12 have been on night shift patrol. I have been on hundreds of entries in my career and also know several members of other swat trained teams in various states. I have been to training classes for high risk entries and have also had many classes on tactical lighting usage......many classes were taught by some very high speed people with more than enough qualifications. (Feds, DOJ, Military)

In all 12 years of both actual real world patrol as well as training I have never used any strobe feature nor have I ever seen it used. I have never heard of it mentioned in training and any who I ask simply laugh and say it is actually useless.

I am not very sure how the whole strobe thing got started however it must be a very good feature to help sale lights. Honestly I can see it as a good feature as a distress beacon however for a high risk entry in a combat scenario......no one I know would even think of it. I have never, nor will I ever, use such a feature and will continue to say that simple is better every time. The more simple your lights, and other equipment, are the better they can be put to actual use.

Take it from personal experience if you have bullets headed your way and all crap is breaking loose your fine motor skills are reduced to almost nothing. It is at this time your training, and simple but effective equipment, will save your butt.


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## FLT MEDIC (Jun 14, 2009)

mpkav said:


> Hey all, I've been a police officer for 8 years and just now got my first light with the strobe feature. I don't know anyone who has actually used the strobe to disorient or blind someone. I've only ever seen officers blinding officers in pure boredom!!!! Does anyone have a story where it has been useful? Blinding a suspect, maybe an attacking dog, an angry wife!!!
> Is it useful or just something to play with???


 
Strobe is not effective in daylight. The frequency of the strobe is critical in disorienting a perp. When too fast (above 15 Hz) or too slow (below 10 Hz), one is better off in momentary full brightness mode or randomly flashing the LED flashlight because the goal is to confuse the perp's brain so the pupil can't adjust as fast as possible to the first few seconds of flashing light. 

The first few seconds you strobe a perp is the most disorienting and the disorientation is always a bit longer when the perp does not expect it. 

In force on force scenarios, strobe while moving and then do a takedown or shoot the perp. Stationary strobing just attracts unwanted attention and shots.

To know the usefulness and time limit of strobing, ask a (bigger) person to stand and not allow you to push them straight back. Switch off the room light so only ambient light is available, push them back and the person will just be standing and laughing at you. 

Do it a second time but this time strobe the person's eyes while moving one step forward to push him and the person will either blink, close or cover their eyes, move away or be temporarily off-balanced, just enough time for a takedown after the push. 

If they experienced this test before, push them diagonally or sideways while strobing so they get off-balance. 

Drunk friends yell insults, close their eyes and look for something to grab so they don't lose their balance. :naughty:

You can't use force on your angry wife so she'll just be mad at you for strobing her. 

When it comes to street dogs, most stop barking and turn away. Cats on the other hand, close their eyes and stand still.


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## mpkav (Jun 14, 2009)

Does make you think where that came from. Not very useful in the law enforcement world but a great toy!! Seems like the main use of the strobe is to shine in your own eyes!!!!


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## Trashman (Jun 14, 2009)

A few years ago, there was a link, here, on CPF, that went to a demonstration of the effectiveness of the strobe. I don't remember if it was a video, photos, or just drawings illustrating the experiment. Long story short, the person explained that the strobe made it so the person being strobed couldn't assess the distance of the person strobing. The strober stood back about 10 feet, and while strobing the person, quickly moved within striking distance (or, he may have actually laid a hand on the person (like a tap)) and the person being strobed was never able to tell that someone was moving upon them.


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## Jaywalk3r (Jun 14, 2009)

gsxrac said:


> I dont remember hearing anyone on this forum say anything about blinding suspects/ attackers with a strobe.



+1

The strobe can be a very effective attention grabber. A very common application is for someone on a sidewalk utilize a strobe to grab a driver's attention so that they might actually look for, see and yield the right of way to pedestrian traffic before turning at an intersection or pulling out of a parking lot. The strobe is much more effective than constant max in such a scenario.


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## depusm12 (Jun 14, 2009)

I've used the strobe feature on my Gladius to disorient a guy for a few seconds so my partner could handcuff him, and during training in a completely dark room. But I wouldn't completely rely on any device, use it if you can, when you can.


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## Robocop (Jun 14, 2009)

There is no doubt a strobe is a distraction however again in real life usage and 12 years experience I have never seen it used. I can only assume this is for a reason and the reason must be that it is not preferred by those who really stake their lives on their tools.

I have played around with strobe featured lights in my spare time and realized that it is weird to look at. What some do not realize is that the strobe is just as distracting to the user as it is others in the room. I could not imagine clearing a room using a strobe feature.....much less clearing a room while under stress or while taking gunfire using a strobe light.

I am sure many will say they like the strobe and in some ways I can see why. I still believe that for a real life situation nothing is better than training and a simple one level light.


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## 270winchester (Jun 14, 2009)

Jaywalk3r said:


> +1
> 
> The strobe can be a very effective attention grabber. A very common application is for someone on a sidewalk utilize a strobe to grab a driver's attention so that they might actually look for, see and yield the right of way to pedestrian traffic before turning at an intersection or pulling out of a parking lot. The strobe is much more effective than constant max in such a scenario.


that from the jaywalker. 

in all seriousness that's the most useful application of the strobe I have seen. From a distance (say 80 feet or more) a quick strobe gets attention of the drivers and it doesn't blind or disorient people in cars but enough to get them to look at you. Saved me a few times from drivers holding medicinal joints.


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## AusKipper (Jun 14, 2009)

Trashman said:


> The strober stood back about 10 feet, and while strobing the person, quickly moved within striking distance (or, he may have actually laid a hand on the person (like a tap)) and the person being strobed was never able to tell that someone was moving upon them.



This discussion isnt something like the 9mm vs 45 argument, I think the best thing to do, regardless of what anyone says here, is to try it. 

Your not going to harm the person in any way, so there is no harm on trying it out with a friend, both with you in control of the light, and with your friend in control with you as the attacker. 

Different strobes are going to be different for different torches, the easiest way for you go guage your torches capabilities is to test them.


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## Robocop (Jun 14, 2009)

I do agree that each person can easily test the strobe feature to see how they like it....however testing it in your living room with a friendly participant is much different than actually using it towards an armed suspect trying to kill you in a dark alleyway. There is simply no substitute for the "real" thing and I have actually been involved with the real thing many times.

The strobe has its uses for both civilian and police however I do not believe that it was ever intended to be used in actual combat.....otherwise it would be much more common on the well known duty and military lights.

I have a good example in dealing with this subject.... I have been training new recruits for about 3 years now. Each recruit does 16 weeks in training after the academy riding with a training officer.

Some of the more recent recruits I have seen have arrived with a duty light that has a strobe feature. After using the light in a real situation searching for real bad guys they usually realize the strobe feature is useless. I have seen the few I have trained that use the strobe feature quickly grow frustrated with the controls or "fumbling" with the light as they put it. Each and every one I have trained have quickly abandoned the strobe feature and purchased a simple, bright, one level duty light. 

I do actually have a spare light in my duty bag that has a strobe feature. I use it on traffic scenes where I want to attract attention and the strobe is perfect for this. Many times it has saved my butt while clearing an accident scene. There have been times where I simply activated the strobe and placed it on my trunk while I worked in front of the patrol car. I find that other motorists will notice the strobe first before they actually pay attention to my big red and blue lights on top of my patrol car.


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## Jaywalk3r (Jun 14, 2009)

270winchester said:


> that from the jaywalker.



LOL The irony does not escape me! :laughing:

Sometimes those darn intersections are just unavoidable.

_Edit to add: My posts should in not be construed in such a way that would imply that I advocate use of crosswalks by pedestrians._


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## mpkav (Jun 14, 2009)

So far it sounds like the strobe is mainly an attention grabber. I guess i have used it on an accident or 2 to get people to move over. Just like Robocop said those red and blues just aren't enough!!!!


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## ErickThakrar (Jun 14, 2009)

One of the primary movers behind the strobe idea for use in a tactical/law enforcement setting is Ken Good. I'm surprised that so many people here seem to have forgotten this. Ken Good is arguably, one of the more popular instructors in the US when it comes to low-light tactics, although he has his share of odd ideas. 
The strobe as a disorienting factor is something that the military has also been researching for a long time. Primarily intended to aid in crowd control, research has been done to ascertain the most disruptive frequencies. Those frequencies all lie between 10 and 15 hz.
Is it a panacea? No, of course not. Can it be used to disorient someone momentarily? Sure, it works on some people. 
I can tell you that in my experience playing around with various lights, the brighter the strobe is, the more effective. The strobe function on my MVP-P7 is very uncomfortable! Far more so than the strobe on my Tomahawk.


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## seaside (Jun 14, 2009)

I think strobe is useful in some degree. Attention grabber, position indicator, and some other uses. It sure can blind, dazzle an attacker for few seconds, give you a chance to hide behind it.

But, is it really tactically useful? That's something to think about.
Do you think you will have enough time to switch flashlight to strobe mode when the guy had weapon pointed at you about to attack? Can you point the strobe directly to the eyes of the attacker in a split of second? Sounds not too easy. Thus it may be useless unless you have plenty of time to act, or the guy already had been under control. But if so, you may not need strobe at all in that situation.


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## Justin Case (Jun 14, 2009)

seaside said:


> Do you think you will have enough time to switch flashlight to strobe mode when the guy had weapon pointed at you about to attack? Can you point the strobe directly to the eyes of the attacker in a split of second? Sounds not too easy. Thus it may be useless unless you have plenty of time to act, or the guy already had been under control.



These are arguments based on false premises.

First, why must I wait to use a strobe until the opponent has a weapon pointed at me and about to attack? Second, if quickly pointing a flashlight accurately is too hard, what about quickly aiming a pistol?

All of these arguments are the same tired arguments against weapons in general for self-defense. Frankly, IMO they are BS.

There is more to the use of strobing than just to disorient an opponent. Properly used, it can also make it quite difficult to estimate the position of someone conducting a deliberate clear, and hide the specific numbers of searchers.

There are also accepted physiological mechanisms for the action of strobes in disorientation. It's not just some made-up thing to sell lights.


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## Justin Case (Jun 14, 2009)

Robocop said:


> I do agree that each person can easily test the strobe feature to see how they like it....however testing it in your living room with a friendly participant is much different than actually using it towards an armed suspect trying to kill you in a dark alleyway.



Same comment I gave above -- this is an argument based on a false premise. That the use of a strobe has to wait until someone is trying to kill you. In addition, why would one use an illumination tool anyway to stop the threat. Light him up with the light and shoot him with the firearm. Your argument additionally poses the false premise of using the wrong tool for the job.



Robocop said:


> Some of the more recent recruits I have seen have arrived with a duty light that has a strobe feature. After using the light in a real situation searching for real bad guys they usually realize the strobe feature is useless. I have seen the few I have trained that use the strobe feature quickly grow frustrated with the controls or "fumbling" with the light as they put it. Each and every one I have trained have quickly abandoned the strobe feature and purchased a simple, bright, one level duty light.



This sounds more like a UI failure than a strobe failure. What flashlights with strobe feature have been used? IMO, most are lame executions of the concept. Not all strobes are the same. Intensity and strobe rate a important variables.


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## Owen (Jun 14, 2009)

Blah, blah, blah. Yeah, it's all soooo simple.

LMAO, it sucks when combat vets and experienced LEOs weigh in on matters of armed confrontation, doesn't it? Just screws everything up. 
Here's an idea, talk to them like they're stupid, put words in their mouth, take things out of context, and give a twist their input to fit your own agenda even if it has nothing to do with anything they actually said or implied. 

May all your life and death scenarios be laid out for your convenience, instead of you being on the defensive and facing infinite and constantly changing variables in situations beyond your control.


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## Fooboy (Jun 14, 2009)

Owen said:


> Blah, blah, blah. Yeah, it's all soooo simple.
> 
> LMAO, it sucks when combat vets and experienced LEOs weigh in on matters of armed confrontation, doesn't it? Just screws everything up.
> Here's an idea, talk to them like they're stupid, put words in their mouth, take things out of context, and give a twist their input to fit your own agenda even if it has nothing to do with anything they actually said or implied.
> ...



Ha, I was thinking the same thing.

Look - Justin - if you want to use strobe, go ahead.

If you want to make a decision based on facts and data, that's another thing. Try re-reading some of the experienced-based posts above.

My .02, true weapon lights are single stage.


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## Robocop (Jun 14, 2009)

Justin it is not a failure of the UI however more so a failure of human nature.....fine motor skills are gone under stress. I have trained with some of the best and I have seen the best lose motor skill while under stress.

Training is good and the more the better however again there is no training like the real thing.


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## Chrontius (Jun 14, 2009)

Never used a strobe tactically, but it got a tow-truck to my position plenty fast once. 

When I get around to building a paintball gun, I'm going to have an M60 with a strobing tailcap on it. Another happy effect of strobe-in-the-face is it becomes very hard to shoot back, because your front sight washes out. People tend to shoot over the heads of the strobe-weilder as they raise their weapon to try to find the sight. Not so effective in paintball where most guns lack sights and tournament rules prohibit sighting devices (?!!) but don't forget the massive scenario games that love blacktical stuff.

Someone mentioned strobes making it difficult to judge range -- they also make it difficult to tell that someone's running in zig-zags toward you as discovered in WW2 and recently declassified.


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## Lightraven (Jun 14, 2009)

I was at a tactical training course in April. A guest speaker was a Navy SEAL combat vet. A non-LE civilian asked about strobing lights. "Strobes are [email protected]#$%^&*( [email protected]#" Sorry, his salty language isn't CPF friendly. Suffice to say, he didn't think highly of them.

Another former SEAL and tactical trainer, Jeff Gonzales, debated former SEAL, trainer and handheld strobe inventor Ken Good on the merits of strobing on another forum. So, with some SEAL trainers and combat vets not sold on the merits of strobing versus the inventor's same background, I'd say it's a wash.

I haven't strobed anybody because my #1 priority, as it should be for all LE officers, is to quickly see suspects, see their hands and see any threatening movements. This is true of a foot stop/chase, vehicle stop (I've done car and boat), or building interior sweep. 

I think strobing only interferes with my visual perception for the debatable "disorientation" effect. If I need to go hands on, I usually like to prepare with a blast of pepper spray until the can is empty then begin hands on. When I'm holding a gun, my goal is even more to clearly identify weapons and threatening movement to justify my shooting. That is imperative. I know from experience.


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## Robocop (Jun 14, 2009)

Ken Good does indeed know his stuff and in many ways has changed my mind on a few things. I like Ken and it was ken who changed my mind on the Tiger Light....love that light for patrol.

Training scenarios are good however again even the best training is not the same as the real thing. In a rapidly evolving situation with real threats there are too many variables to control. In my personal experience a strobe light was distracting to me as well as other members of my team. I have also experienced fine motor skill failure and at the time was very glad I had simple effective tools that required little thinking on my part.

Yes it is a distraction there is no doubt of that and I can see how it may be usefull under perfect situations however under live fire there is no room for guesswork. It is easy to show in training how certain tactics can work however when it is my life involved for me simple is best. You may be able to actually make use of a strobe feature and if so that is great. I will never use a strobe feature for anything other than a signal or for traffic work and have explained my reasons for doing so.

So to answer the original question yes in theory a strobe can work under controlled situations. I have yet to see or hear of its actual usage applied in real life scenarios.


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## RyanA (Jun 14, 2009)

It seems that it works best when closing on a person, perp etc. I've used it on a few drunks before. And I think it's decent for that use. It works better on some than others. Although to be honest the ones it works well on are usually unusually sensitive to bright light to begin with (Many would likely be affected the same by the same light on high, although if you're closing the distance I suppose the strobe might make the brain re-calculate your position). All in all it might be useful if you have to confront someone who is unarmed and belligerent. Even with that the only lights I like it on are aspherics because the flashes are obnoxiously bright at close distances.


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## Justin Case (Jun 14, 2009)

Owen said:


> Blah, blah, blah. Yeah, it's all soooo simple.
> 
> LMAO, it sucks when combat vets and experienced LEOs weigh in on matters of armed confrontation, doesn't it? Just screws everything up.
> Here's an idea, talk to them like they're stupid, put words in their mouth, take things out of context, and give a twist their input to fit your own agenda even if it has nothing to do with anything they actually said or implied.
> ...



Thanks. I appreciate your well-reasoned and rigorous input. I will use CPF as my go-to source for all things tactical from now on.


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## Justin Case (Jun 14, 2009)

Robocop said:


> Justin it is not a failure of the UI however more so a failure of human nature.....fine motor skills are gone under stress. I have trained with some of the best and I have seen the best lose motor skill while under stress.



Pressing a large button isn't a fine motor skill. Perhaps you are confusing it with conditional decision branching problems. Otherwise, I would suggest taking away firearms as well since one could suffer fine motor skill problems in pressing the trigger under stress.


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## Justin Case (Jun 14, 2009)

Fooboy said:


> Ha, I was thinking the same thing.
> 
> Look - Justin - if you want to use strobe, go ahead.
> 
> ...



Multiple anecdotes are not data. However, you are more than welcome to base your tactics on CPF posts by anonymous people.

FYI, none of my handheld EDC lights and weaponlights are multimode. I do have a BH Gladius in my daily bag. So, your assumptions regarding my use of a dedicated strobe function are completely wrong.


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## old4570 (Jun 14, 2009)

Yeah !! :wave:

Armchair expert VS Law Enforcement Professional .

Hmmmmm . 


Seriously , get a paint ball gun and a rubber knife , and some one motivated to hurt you a little , and put it to the test . 

Then come back and tell us how useless strobe was "Eeeer" ineffective , I mean effective !


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## Robocop (Jun 14, 2009)

I have seen seasoned officers killed by simply forgetting how to work their safety while taking fire....I have seen real life video of seasoned officers killed after forgetting to simply let go of their note pad held in their weapon hand while taking sudden un-expected fire. Yes pressing a button sounds simple however when you are 4 feet from the end of a 45 it is a fine motor skill.

I do enjoy hearing of others experiences and will gladly take any advantage I can while on the street. As I said if some can find a way to make it work then that is great however in my experiences I will stick with what has worked for me in the past.

Believe me when I say some officers experiences are different than others. Some officers have been under stress while some officers have actually been involved in a last minute fire fight....there is a huge difference between each officers experiences. I myself have found it difficult to work something as simple as my police radio under fire which I use every day. I was in a foot chase with an armed suspect and my radio got kicked to another channel.....all I had to do was switch to my home channel and while fumbling with one simple knob I found every channel but the one I wanted....it can happen to you or anyone and when it does you will be glad for simple effective equipment.

Good luck to all and by all means continue to train.


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## Justin Case (Jun 14, 2009)

old4570 said:


> Yeah !! :wave:
> 
> Armchair expert VS Law Enforcement Professional .
> 
> ...



I've done the 21 foot drill countless times. Have you? Also, I never said to use a strobe against a knifer. Why would I? A knife is lethal force. Yet another false premise argument. And please explain how does a test with a paintball gun and a rubber knife tell me something about the utility of a strobe flashlight? You are proposing to test the usefulness of a strobe flashlight, but your test doesn't include the use of the strobe flashlight at any time! Brilliant! :nana:


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## Jaywalk3r (Jun 14, 2009)

Justin Case said:


> why would one use an illumination tool anyway to stop the threat. Light him up with the light and shoot him with the firearm.



I'm not a LEO, so, in the event of encountering a potential attacker, I have no obligation to do anything besides save myself. While I've had sufficient military and martial arts training to be confident in my ability to pose an unexpected threat to an aggressor, my personal opinion is that I'm getting too old to be antagonizing potential attackers. In such a situation, my flashlight is there to stop the threat. It's a two step process:

1. Shine light in bad guy's eyes.
2. Run and get the hell out of Dodge.

Step one disrupts my adversary's night vision. Step two makes me a moving target. Should I fail to be able to carry out step two, then I'm prepared for that scenario. However, stopping a threat and saving my own *** does not imply a necessity to do harm to anyone else.

I refuse to be a victim. I also feel no need to be a hero.


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## dano (Jun 14, 2009)

http://strategosforum.com/phpBB3/index.php

It's Ken Good's forum. Although not active, recently, there's a lot of good material on there relating to this topic.

I've had some success with a strobe on a few subjects. It works best indoors, under low light conditions. Not so well when ambient light is an issue (as with all LED based lights).

-dan


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## nobody (Jun 14, 2009)

Robocop said:


> The strobe has its uses for both civilian and police however I do not believe that it was ever intended to be used in actual combat.....otherwise it would be much more common on the well known duty and military lights.



^this


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## mpkav (Jun 14, 2009)

I think we have all determined that strobe as it pertains to police work and tactical situations it is pretty useless. I think it's interesting how this thread has moved a little more towards tactics in certain situations. I think any of us that have been in law enforcement, military, or even Joe Citizen has there own thinking on tactics and survival. Pertaining to police work it really is different all across the country. If you are in LA police work will be different than Indianapolis and that will be different from Winter Haven Florida. I think the common denominator here is we all use light and light is a major factor in our survival, no matter how you use it!!!


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## Robocop (Jun 14, 2009)

I enjoy new ideas as well as anything that can educate me to have an advantage on the street. I enjoy a good debate and do hope this thread can one remain civil and also remain on topic. 

I do not know many officers who would approach a threat with their only weapon being a light. Of course none I know would ever do so against an attacker advancing with a weapon. Having said that if you are searching a building where an intruder is known to be inside one should assume an armed conflict is about to begin....regardless if it does or not.

I have entered hundreds of buildings looking for a known suspect and many times have entered with trained swat teams....never once have I seen any officer enter with a strobe feature activated. Why even begin with a strobe if there is even a chance of encountering armed intruders?

The 21 foot drill is a good drill and I was amazed at how fast an instructor could cover that distance. Once again this drill was always under controlled elements with the attacker being an instructor. A better example would be a cracked out 20 year old in a dark alleyway swinging a screwdriver at your face. I was even more suprised at how much faster an actual criminal wanting to hurt me could cover the same 21 feet twice as fast as the instructor in all my classes.......I was also suprised to see how much harder it was to stop that drugged out criminal than it was to stop the instructor from all my classes.

I am a full believer in training as repitition and muscle memory is what will save your life. There is nothing better than training with the exception of real life experiences. As I said Ken Good is full of knowlege and I would not hesitate to enter a building and search with him as I have full confidence in his abilities.....however my actual real life experiences have shaped the way I do things in patrol and as such I may have different opinions towards certain tactics.


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## old4570 (Jun 14, 2009)

Justin Case said:


> I've done the 21 foot drill countless times. Have you? Also, I never said to use a strobe against a knifer. Why would I? A knife is lethal force. Yet another false premise argument. And please explain how does a test with a paintball gun and a rubber knife tell me something about the utility of a strobe flashlight? You are proposing to test the usefulness of a strobe flashlight, but your test doesn't include the use of the strobe flashlight at any time! Brilliant! :nana:



Well , It just depends on what your goal is ! 

How is strobe tactical ? People keep suggesting its useful for def fence ?

Please explain how ? 

I know enough about assaults , etc . 

Tactical entry , if you strobe a room , who is going to be disorientated ? 
The perp shooting at you , or you ? 

If your walking down the street , and you fear imminent attack , how will strobe help ?

If your already involved in a fight , how is adding strobe going to help ? 

Im sorry , but again , please try it , then tell folks how great it is ...
Armchair quarterbacking ! VS Real life experience ...
I think the shoe is on your foot , not mine . 

Seriously , if your having a party and you want to strobe it , go for it .
Serious life threatening situation , please feel free to strobe as you die ! 

Again , please feel free to put your life in the hands of a strobing flashlight .
But please dont give such advise over experienced law enforcement folk who have actually put there lives on the line ... 

My suggestion is so you can get some real life experience/stress and see how well you can push the button to find strobe ... 

I think you will find that it only takes an aggressor 1 to 2 seconds to close within striking distance ...

If you knew anything you would know most shootings take place around 7 to 15 feet , also once initiated , you will be attacked within less than 3 seconds , [ 1 to 2 seconds ] 

And being under fire , real bullets kill , paint balls just hurt , but the stress will be there . So if your going to tell some one something , how bout actually knowing something about it . 

Otherwise your just being a monkey on some ones back .

So like I said , Paint ball gun / rubber knife ...
Find a motivated attacker , and see how well you do ! 
Till then , your just full of it ! 

And if you dont understand this , then I dont want to dwell into your """""""



PS/ What 21 foot drill .. IPSC / PPC ? 
I live in Australia , its illegal to defend yourself with a weapon here . 
Technically its illegal to train with a fire arm to do harm . 
Here it's legal to be a victim . 

So , have you strobed at night whilst doing the 21foot drill ? Were you the target in the 21foot drill ? Have you ever been under fire ?


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## GreyShark (Jun 14, 2009)

These kinds of threads get very silly and not just on CPF and not just about strobes. I could write a few paragraphs about the silliness and offend all kinds of people but it is more efficient just to say believe what you see personally proven in realtime in actual reality. Trust what actually worked for you when you needed it to. That's the best anybody can do.

In direct relation to the topic, I don't feel there is any particular advantage to a strobe in a fight over a simple powerful steady beam of light. The strobe is at best different. Outside of fighting the strobe has some very interesting uses and that's great because fighting is a lot less important to survival than most other things no matter what your profession is. Nobody successfully does more fighting than they do other things and the few who occasionally try it do not last long.


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## Robocop (Jun 15, 2009)

I do hope that the poster has received enough information, both pros and cons, to make a decision of his own. We can all agree that strobe has its functions however disagree with where that function is.

I will allow this thread to run its coarse if it remains civil however I will close it if it begins to turn into drama. I do feel much of the information is important and with all the information given other readers can hopefully form their own opinion.

We are all passionate about this hobby of ours and with some it spills over into our real lives. My hobby of lights is something I actually practice every night so as such I am very passionate when it comes to my opinions of actual usage and safety. My opinions will differ from some however we can all express our points here without drama. 

Ok so my official answer to the posters question is yes I believe strobe does work very well for traffic duty such as to signal approaching vehicles. I also believe it works well when combined with road flares or other signal devices on accident scenes to keep an officer who is out of their vehicle safe from other motorists. I do not feel it works well for high risk entries or other hands on situations where there is a risk of contacting a dangerous criminal.


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## Search (Jun 15, 2009)

It's very simple guys.

One and only one light is going to serve as a "tactical" light. It is a simple light that can be a Maglite or a Z2. 

There are 10 different ways to use a flashlight and a handgun together that a Side Button Maglite could be as effective as a rear push button Z2. 

However, this light cannot have a strobe or "multiple modes". It can only have one. It's a light for clearing buildings, clearing yards, etc. 

Using low-light techniques in REAL tactical situations, you would HAVE to use flash and move, flash and move, flash and move techniques.

Then another light used for the simple, daily grind. 

This can be any light from a 6P to a PD30. It can strobe, SOS, switch to multiple-modes, ramp, etc.

It's for walking up to cars, searching cars (which would be good to have a drop in output), dealing with people, checking a buildings perimeter, etc, etc, etc.

Strobe has a use on this flashlight. 

I'm not going to say if it's effective or not, because I've never encountered a situation to use mine. I can find an officer who lives by his though.

All I will say is whether or not a certain person feels as if strobing is necessary or effective, the main, duty light has a place for it with it not interfering with officer safety.

That is if that officer has a "tactical" light in case that situation comes.

As RoboCop said, anything complicated should never go into a tactical situation. It isn't even worth arguing and is set in stone.

Strobe and tactical never go together. General and strobe is different.


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## winston (Jun 15, 2009)

270winchester said:


> that from the jaywalker.
> 
> in all seriousness that's the most useful application of the strobe I have seen. From a distance (say 80 feet or more) a quick strobe gets attention of the drivers and it doesn't blind or disorient people in cars but enough to get them to look at you. Saved me a few times from drivers holding medicinal joints.



The full weight of the medicinal joint remark didn't hit me until I read your location.
Isn't the local motto:?

-Winston


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## defloyd77 (Jun 15, 2009)

old4570 said:


> So like I said , Paint ball gun / rubber knife ...
> Find a motivated attacker , and see how well you do !
> Till then , your just full of it !



I like this idea 

A while ago a friend and I tested the usefulness of just a momentary flash. It was my idea so I went first. His backyard was pretty dark, could see just somewhat, so he gives me the ok. I kick him in the leg:devil: then flash him and quickly and silently go behind him and kick him in the rear. He's motivated now lol, so he turns around and this time I held the light fully extended to my left, (his right) and he turns that way, again I kick him in the rear. As long as I mixed things up and was quiet, he couldn't manage to find me. The point I'm making is there was about 4 seconds where he couldn't see at all and that's 4 seconds to your advantage to figure out what the heck you're doing and do it. 

He never got his turn......

Also I've noticed running circles around drunks, strobing my Jetbeam CLE V2 makes them puke....


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## hyperloop (Jun 15, 2009)

FLT MEDIC said:


> When it comes to street dogs, most stop barking and turn away. Cats on the other hand, close their eyes and stand still.


 
 think my dog (female dalmatian) must be either visually impaired, drunk, weird or likes the strobe cos when i strobed her with my Jet III Pro ST on highest strobe frequency, she can just stare at me, blankly.

Not being an LEO, but being an enthusiastic angler who goes night fishing (though not as often as i wish due to the exigiencies of work), i found that a quick flash at max was quite effective to blind someone whose vision was night adapted, flashed one of my buddies with 225 lumens from a Jetbeam and he stopped dead for a few seconds till he recovered some vision. I'd say that a fast strobe, used intermittently might be more effective than continously strobing someone.


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## Robocop (Jun 15, 2009)

defloyd77 at least you get points for trying however honestly there is no comparison between a hardened criminal and a friend in your back yard. Sure it will give you an idea as to some uses of the strobe however I can again assure you that the testing you tried out is nothing like a true life scenario.

Let me give you a scenario....I am a pretty big guy and anyone who has seen me will tell you I kind of look the part. I have been through several training classes for various street fighting and patrol situations and have been on the mat with some very tough instructors. Some of these instructors in my mind were awesome athletes and not anyone you would want to mess with on the street.......well

The single toughest man I have ever encountered was a 150 lb crack head leaving a dope house one night. He was fresh out of jail and itching for his dope and when I encountered him he simply was not going to allow me to mess up his night. This crack head, with no training, was tougher than any instructor I had ever seen and was able to go head to head with me for about 2 minutes.....which in a back alley is forever. In the end it was my baton, and radio, that got him however again way tougher than any fight I had trained with instructors on and an underestimate I never made again.

Now place this 150 lb crack head, with no dope for a week, in your backyard and strobe him and you probably would see a different result. Again at least you are experimenting and that is good however I want others to understand that there is a difference between practice, training, and real life situations. Where a strobe may disorient your friend it will do little towards a cracked out thug intent on taking your life.


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## Robocop (Jun 15, 2009)

Also please forgive me if I seem to go on and on about this topic however it is something that hits close to home for me. I have been training new recruits for a while now and I see so many new officers showing up with some of the most crazy stuff in their head.

I usually ask where they saw this or where they were trained to do that and usually the answer is...."well I read it on this tactical forum" or maybe "my friend Joe and I practice this fighting style all the time"....all kinds of crazy stuff and usually none of it is good advice. I would hope that I teach my new recruits what works in reality, based on my experiences, so I may tend to babble at times about safety and police/military work.

Just so most others will know why I believe it so important.....ok back to the discussion.


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## defloyd77 (Jun 15, 2009)

Robocop, I am not at all disagreeing with you, in fact I do agree with you 100 percent, but if I only had my light on me and nothing else (I don't have a gun and rarely carry a knife), I'd flash the dude in the eyes and unless he's wearing sunglasses there'd be at least one second where he won't be able to see too well, I'm not talking about disorienting or anything and I'd mostly run like a mother****** and that one second would give me a pretty good head start as I'm a good runner, heck maybe I'd get lucky and he'd trip or even think I'm a cop. 

Then there's also the fact that by shining a light at someone means they don't have the element of suprise (if they were going for that that is).


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## Robocop (Jun 15, 2009)

I do believe you must use what you have and honestly most people would not encounter a crazed drug addict in some burnt out house anyway. I guess I could understand where if a light was all you had a strobe would be better than nothing.

Yes running works however I forgot to add the fastest person I ever saw was also a criminal (grin)......most drug addicts are slim and fast they just dont have any wind. If you can keep a good pace for about 100 yards you should be ok....


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## defloyd77 (Jun 15, 2009)

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2008/05/wwii-strobe-t-1/

That's the WWII strobe Chrontius was speaking of. I don't think strobes should be totally disregarded tactically speaking. They were definately onto something with that tank strobe, but the tactics used with that wouldn't translate well into flashlight tactics. One thing that's well noted with bike flashers, the slow fashing ones are really hard to track and can sometimes confuse drivers as to where the heck the bike is.


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## Lightraven (Jun 15, 2009)

To be fair, on-duty LEOs and civvies living their lives have very different situations and tactics for one may not be appropriate for the other. A strobing flashlight might be just the ticket for a bouncer, unarmed security or kid walking his dog at night. I don't know.

Because this thread was started by a LEO, other LEOs have given their on-duty perspective. When I think about a strobing light, I can't get past my pepper spray, night vision goggles, baton, Taser, guns (we have guys carrying automatic rifles and SMG's these days) and various coworkers who enjoy fighting. A strobing light seems pointless in that set of circumstances.

Then again, enough LEOs have said on this thread and others that strobing worked for them. While I'm not sure whether it was the strobe or just the bright light itself against a drunk with dilated pupils, I would never argue their experience.


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## Justin Case (Jun 15, 2009)

Robocop said:


> I enjoy new ideas as well as anything that can educate me to have an advantage on the street. I enjoy a good debate and do hope this thread can one remain civil and also remain on topic.
> 
> I do not know many officers who would approach a threat with their only weapon being a light. Of course none I know would ever do so against an attacker advancing with a weapon. Having said that if you are searching a building where an intruder is known to be inside one should assume an armed conflict is about to begin....regardless if it does or not.
> 
> ...



Right, I never promoted the exclusive use of a light's strobe function. However, you don't need a dedicated strobe function on your light to be able to use strobing. I can do it with a single mode light by either bezel wobble or tailcap cycling. It does make single searcher location more difficult for the opponent, especially combined with things like ceiling bounce and off-angle aiming.

The general rule of thumb is that the attacker is going to do exactly what he was doing immediately before you started to shoot at him. Thus, if he is trying to stab you with a screwdriver and you shoot him between 0-21 feet, he is still going to try to stab you afterward. So if even firearms have a hard time stopping a determined attacker, why would I advocate using just a light. Answer -- I don't. Some other posters who are against strobes continue to misrepresent my position on this.


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## Justin Case (Jun 15, 2009)

old4570 said:


> Well , It just depends on what your goal is !
> 
> How is strobe tactical ? People keep suggesting its useful for def fence ?



I didn't.



old4570 said:


> Please explain how ?



See above.



old4570 said:


> I know enough about assaults , etc .
> 
> Tactical entry , if you strobe a room , who is going to be disorientated ?
> The perp shooting at you , or you ?



Never said that a strobe would stop people from shooting or protect you from incoming. That is a complete misrepresentation and simply argumentative.



old4570 said:


> If your walking down the street , and you fear imminent attack , how will strobe help ?



Same "help" as using any bright light.



old4570 said:


> If your already involved in a fight , how is adding strobe going to help ?



Never said it would. If you are already engaged in a fight, then you need to fight back, not shine photons, strobe or no strobe.



old4570 said:


> Im sorry , but again , please try it , then tell folks how great it is ...
> Armchair quarterbacking ! VS Real life experience ...
> I think the shoe is on your foot , not mine .



Never said "how great it is". You are again engaging in misrepresentation for your own personal agenda.



old4570 said:


> Seriously , if your having a party and you want to strobe it , go for it .
> Serious life threatening situation , please feel free to strobe as you die !



Another misrepresentation. I never suggested to use just a strobe in any lethal force situation.



old4570 said:


> Again , please feel free to put your life in the hands of a strobing flashlight .
> But please dont give such advise over experienced law enforcement folk who have actually put there lives on the line ...
> 
> My suggestion is so you can get some real life experience/stress and see how well you can push the button to find strobe ...
> ...



I know how long it takes for someone to close the gap. 21 foot rule. Remember? And of course it's an even shorter time at closer range. I've done the force-on-force with Sims, I've done the live fire, I've done the sparring, I've done the knife work. Have you? Or are you just pontificating?

Stop being a jerk and assuming, with zero evidence, that somehow I don't know the stats on criminal attacks. I've only been studying the topic for the last 15 years. As for your stats of 7-15 feet, who had the tape measure out during the attack? Once the attack initiates, you will be attacked within 3 sec? What does that even mean and who had the stopwatch running during these events?

Yeah, if you are targeted, obviously the BG wants something from you -- typically your wallet/money. So he has to come close to get it. Duh. So don't wait for the BG to close the gap. Learn to manage unknown contacts. Of course, you can't always keep people far away, but letting people get into your reactionary gap (of course, you know what that is being the big expert you are) if it can be otherwise prevented is a mistake. But I have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to your 3 sec figure of merit. Are you talking about closing the 7-15 foot gap that you cite? Clearly, you have no clue about the 21 foot rule. We've run hundreds, if not thousands of tests, with men, women, old, young, fit, injured. I had a guy in a cast close the 21 foot gap in 2 sec. And that is an optimistic case. Actually, you don't have to close the full 21 foot gap to be a threat with a contact distance weapon. Plus, the defender has prior knowledge of what is going to happen, so his reaction time is optimized. Of course, we all know this and understand that the so-called 21 foot rule is a preferred minimum distance.

Also, if some is going to accost you, they are going to try to get inside of your reactionary gap first, not initiate from 21 feet, and the attack is going to be essentially instantaneous. If I had up to 3 sec to respond, that would be a best case. Worst case, the BG cracks your head open completely by surprise.

Under fire.... Again with the misrepresentation. Your accusations cut two ways. If you are going to tell someone something, how about knowing something about the subject. What is your resume? Taken any combatives training? Live fire weapons training? Knife training? Weapon retention and disarming training? Force on force training?



old4570 said:


> So like I said , Paint ball gun / rubber knife ...
> Find a motivated attacker , and see how well you do !
> Till then , your just full of it !



See above. I've done it. What is your experience?

I also note that you never directly address how a paintball gun and rubber knife test proves that using flashlight strobing is ineffective.

The point, which you continually miss, is that a knifer coming at you is a deadly force situation and using a flashlight period, strobe or no strobe, is plain silly. So your "test" is completely irrelevant.



old4570 said:


> And if you dont understand this , then I dont want to dwell into your """""""
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And your "real life" experience is...? Clearly you don't even know what the 21 foot drill is. It has nothing to do with IPSC or PPC. Have you ever shot any IPSC or PPC? Have I ever been under fire -- I'm not the type to brag one way or another. But you seem to be the type who doesn't understand that sort of thing. The point is that having been under fire is a poor criterion by itself for choosing your source for tactics. Women and children at the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC were just under fire. I wouldn't consult them on useful self-defense tactics.

Have you been under fire? If that's your selection criterion, then prove to me that your position is supported by first-hand experience, not just parrotting others.


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## Justin Case (Jun 15, 2009)

Robocop said:


> I have seen seasoned officers killed by simply forgetting how to work their safety while taking fire....I have seen real life video of seasoned officers killed after forgetting to simply let go of their note pad held in their weapon hand while taking sudden un-expected fire. Yes pressing a button sounds simple however when you are 4 feet from the end of a 45 it is a fine motor skill.



You will not rise to the occasion, but default to your level of training. I submit that the level of training was not sufficiently high. Frankly, the shooting and firearms manipulation skills of many of today's officers is abysmal. It's sad to hear that decades after Newhall, officers are still more highly trained in administrative skills like holding a notepad than operating their firearm.

The key here is that the officers holding the notepads were taken by surprise. Getting surprised and having to go from Yellow to Orange or Black in an instant is not a recipe for success. But that has nothing to do with a fine motor skill in this case. It has everything to do with decision-making ability under extreme stress. If your skills aren't reflexive, then you are going to fall further behind in the OODA loop while trying to figure out what to do, and probably never be able to mount any sort of effective defense, strobe or no strobe, gun or no gun. And even if your skills are reflexive, you are still starting behind the curve.

These examples, IMO, are not an indictment of having a strobe on the flashlight. Why would I even want to use a strobe function on my light in any of these cases?

Here's the deal. When officers can't even operate their firearm, I don't hear people complaining that guns are useless. But when they can't operate their flashlight, suddenly it's clear proof that dedicated strobe functions are useless? Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. But the arguments put forth so far don't really cut it IMO. Most of the arguments against strobes seem to be of the "hammer and nail" variety, where the strobe is no good against a lethal threat, against some irrational crackhead, etc. Well surprise, it's a flashlight. That's all. It obviously has limited capability for behavior change. Why would I expect a photon emitter to stop bullets, help me leap tall buildings in a single bound, make Einsteins out of crackheads, etc?

Everything in the so-called force continuum can and has failed -- verbal commands, OC, soft hands, hard hands, baton, TASER, firearm. Failure doesn't necessary mean useless.


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## Jaywalk3r (Jun 15, 2009)

Robocop said:


> Yes running works however I forgot to add the fastest person I ever saw was also a criminal (grin)......most drug addicts are slim and fast they just dont have any wind. If you can keep a good pace for about 100 yards you should be ok....



With all respect, there is a significant difference between a criminal (there's nothing special about drug addicts compared to non-addicts, but that's a discussion for a different thread) behavior when that criminal encounters a potential victim and when that criminal criminal encounters a police officer.

Excepting cases in which the potential victim is _specifically_ targeted, all a potential victim needs to do to escape attack is convince the attacker that someone else would make an easier/better victim. That's not hard to do. Demonstrating situational awareness and running will work in most cases.

OTOH, when encountering police, criminals can feel desperate. From the criminal's perspective, such an encounter makes the criminal the potential victim and the officer the source of threat. As such, the criminal will be much more willing to do whatever it takes to avoid capture. Like most potential victims, they will have plenty of adrenalin flowing and may not feel pain immediately. They will go into fight or flight mode, making them either a capable fighter or a capable runner.


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## Solscud007 (Jun 16, 2009)

old4570 said:


> Yeah !! :wave:
> 
> Armchair expert VS Law Enforcement Professional .
> 
> ...





Im too lazy to read most of the replies here. But I hope this helps a bit. I used to play Airsoft rather often. Here is a POV video I made. Im using a P90, SF weaponlight, and my Blackhawk Gladius for the strobe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaT4IbPE6go

At 0:50 into the video I unleash the P90 on a group then hit a National guardsmen with the gladius.

At 1:57 into the video I used the gladius again and every one pretty much has no idea what is going on other than cringing with pain from my weapon and the strobing effect. It does help just a bit to gain a slight advantage over my opponents. If the field was darker, it would be even more effective.

Now im not saying this will work in every situation. Airsoft is a simulation and people are not as aggressive however some are more reckless since there is no real element of mortal danger so take it with a grain of salt.


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## RyanA (Jun 16, 2009)

Lightraven said:


> To be fair, on-duty LEOs and civvies living their lives have very different situations and tactics for one may not be appropriate for the other. A strobing flashlight might be just the ticket for a bouncer, unarmed security or kid walking his dog at night. I don't know.
> 
> Because this thread was started by a LEO, other LEOs have given their on-duty perspective. When I think about a strobing light, I can't get past my pepper spray, night vision goggles, baton, Taser, guns (we have guys carrying automatic rifles and SMG's these days) and various coworkers who enjoy fighting. A strobing light seems pointless in that set of circumstances.
> 
> Then again, enough LEOs have said on this thread and others that strobing worked for them. While I'm not sure whether it was the strobe or just the bright light itself against a drunk with dilated pupils, I would never argue their experience.



I have to say I agree with this statement most. Different situations call for different tools. I think strobe has worked in my favor mainly because I have the luxury of sobriety I often know there's going to be a problem before it starts. I get to be proactive and pick my battles where and when I know I will win them, that and having 3-6 other people for immediate backup usually means I'm the one on the offense and that it's typically a low risk situation. I've mostly used it to get behind people and back them out the door (there have been a few instances where I haven't been able to get behind them from the get-go, it seems cowardly, I know, but it's way easier than being an amateur pugilist.) That's really the only way I'd advocate using strobe from my experience. Even then I've only had limited use for it. I don't have any tactical experience though, I can't say if it has any use there. If someone pulls out a gun I'm out the door and down the street with the rest.


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## Robocop (Jun 17, 2009)

Justin Case said:


> You will not rise to the occasion, but default to your level of training. I submit that the level of training was not sufficiently high. Frankly, the shooting and firearms manipulation skills of many of today's officers is abysmal. It's sad to hear that decades after Newhall, officers are still more highly trained in administrative skills like holding a notepad than operating their firearm.
> 
> The key here is that the officers holding the notepads were taken by surprise. Getting surprised and having to go from Yellow to Orange or Black in an instant is not a recipe for success. But that has nothing to do with a fine motor skill in this case. It has everything to do with decision-making ability under extreme stress. If your skills aren't reflexive, then you are going to fall further behind in the OODA loop while trying to figure out what to do, and probably never be able to mount any sort of effective defense, strobe or no strobe, gun or no gun. And even if your skills are reflexive, you are still starting behind the curve.
> 
> ...




Justin I know some of these officers involved and believe me when I say their level of training was impressive with many years of experience as well. You say getting suprised has nothing to do with fine motor skill and in fact it has everything to do with it......fact is most all people lose fine motor skill under real stress. When I say real stress I mean life and death situations and believe me I have been in plenty. Each situation I have been involved in usually started with a suprise also.

Training is great and it works to an extent however one can train for 20 years and never have a critical incident. When something does happen the training can keep them alive however if they have over complicated equipment it makes it harder to stay alive due to motor skill loss. This is a simple proven fact and until you have experienced it you will not fully understand how it can and does happen to even highly trained people.

I do not feel strobe is useless for patrol as again I have used a strobe light for routine tasks on duty. I do believe it has no place in a dangerous entry or even a situation where a conflict is possible. So I do believe it works for certain things however my life is much too important for me to ever include it against an attacker unless I simply have no other weapons.

I have been inside a room during a practice drill where the instructors had placed strobing lights throughout the structure. Yes it was weird and it made the search interesting however it did nothing to hinder our objective.

I guess to sum it up in a simple way I would say....For an officer to be using a strobe light on any type event that may turn deadly is a mistake I believe. I say so because the strobe would be disorienting to the attacker however would also do the same for the officers. This would simply add another distraction to the already decreased motor skills should the officer be suprised by gunfire or other attack.

We have to worry about crossfire...civilians...and a whole host of other stuff however a determined and dangerous criminal cares nothing for any other variables....Strobe may or may not work great in some situations however personally I want a clear field of view without any distractions to myself or others around me. Just my take on it and again I appreciate this thread remaining civil....I do hope the poster has actually got something usefull from it.


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## Sgt. LED (Jun 17, 2009)

:wave: Immune.

I bet most folks are so don't strobe people. You want to strobe a search plane or a traffic accident fine.


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## Justin Case (Jun 17, 2009)

Robocop said:


> Justin I know some of these officers involved and believe me when I say their level of training was impressive with many years of experience as well. You say getting suprised has nothing to do with fine motor skill and in fact it has everything to do with it......fact is most all people lose fine motor skill under real stress.



I believe you are confusing loss of fine motor coordination with degradation in decision-making ability when under extreme stress. You described officers forgetting how to take their pistols off safe. "Forgetting" is not a fine motor coordination problem. That is a brain-scrambled problem, i.e., decision-making. Look up the difference between Fitts's Law and Hick's Law. You appear to be talking about Hick's Law when talking about complicated equipment.



Robocop said:


> So I do believe it works for certain things however my life is much too important for me to ever include it against an attacker unless I simply have no other weapons.



Each weapon has its regime of applicability. I carry a lot of weapons. Can't use them except when warranted. Can't use any lethal force in a non-lethal force situation, for example. Can't cut them for the same reason. Etc etc. The light as distraction tool IMO best fits at a very low level of force, perhaps used in combination with verbal commands, probably most frequently used "weapon" and probably the most useful for non-LEOs. In theory, one also could use it as a non-LEO in combination with OC, but coordinating both simultaneously is probably overly complicated. I think the disconnect is that many are coming from a non-LEO viewpoint, including myself, where immediate disengagement is the goal, not arrest. Thus, I am unconcerned with pursuing people, subduing people, going toward the threat instead of away from it, etc. I don't have any command presence to depend upon either when using verbal commands, unlike a LEO (at least when dealing with semi-rational people). So enhancing the disengagement effectiveness of things like verbal commands and body language is a good thing (of course, within the constraints of ease of use, etc etc).



Robocop said:


> I have been inside a room during a practice drill where the instructors had placed strobing lights throughout the structure. Yes it was weird and it made the search interesting however it did nothing to hinder our objective.



When used for search, I don't think you need a dedicated 10-15 Hz strobe. Manual strobing at 4-5 Hz generally works well and doesn't produce distraction for the user. It doesn't distract the opponent either, but that's not the goal. What it does is mask the light pattern of the search, making it harder to figure out where the searcher is looking and where he is. I don't think I ever said that a strobe was useful for entry. I doubt that a flashlight strobe would be useful for that purpose.


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## Solscud007 (Jun 17, 2009)

I think a true tactical strobe is difficult to use. I have seen it cause slight disorientation. a lot of bobbing and weaving to change position of the body. Throwing the light above my head etc. makes it difficult to pinpoint where I am. but that could be done with a normal tactical light. See SF institute and their light techniques.

The strobe has to fit the target in the face. kinda like how ridiculously bright lights, in the face, can be slightly disorienting. Obviously you dont want to jsut stand still and blast a person coming at you in the face. That probably WONT stop them. but if you move and blast them in the face, they will have a harder time finding you to attack.

In airsoft, I know it is just a game but there are some merits to it, the usual mentality of kids playing is to squeeze and pray. Even though these kids have full automatic weapons, they were unable to tag me when I used the strobe and moved my body around, like crouching. even seasoned players have told me that on the recieving end of the Gladius, they have a hard time aiming.


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## alpg88 (Jun 17, 2009)

in ww2 rotating mirror sets on searchlights were used by british to dissorient german bomber pilots, and it worked, most of the time.


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## Jaywalk3r (Jun 17, 2009)

Robocop said:


> You say getting suprised has nothing to do with fine motor skill and in fact it has everything to do with it......fact is most all people lose fine motor skill under real stress. When I say real stress I mean life and death situations and believe me I have been in plenty. Each situation I have been involved in usually started with a suprise also.
> 
> Training is great and it works to an extent however one can train for 20 years and never have a critical incident. When something does happen the training can keep them alive however if they have over complicated equipment it makes it harder to stay alive due to motor skill loss.



Again, I'm not a LEO, but I've been in my share of life or death situations. Speaking for myself, in such situations, time seems to slow down and I become acutely aware of everything going on around me.

OTOH, I recognize that some people, when faced with such situations, simply freak out and either freeze up or take correct actions in an incorrect order, despite high levels of training for the exact scenario. Of those, the lucky ones live, despite their mistakes, and the rest are injured or die.

People don't all handle stress the same way. For some people, complicated decision trees are easily and quickly navigated in high stress situations. For others, an extremely simple process (1-2 steps) that has been drilled thousands of times proves to be too complicated under stress. Unfortunately, most times it is virtually impossible to determine how one will react to a time critical life or death situation until actually faced with one.


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## Robocop (Jun 18, 2009)

Justin I tell ya I know nothing of Hicks law nor Fitts law however degredation of decision making under stress sounds to me to be the same thing as loss of fine motor skills. Who cares what it is called the end result of bad decisions or loss of motor skills is the same result and it is usually bad.

My point is if at any time a strobe is in effect it can add a level of confusion to the officers they do not need. To me forgetting to work the safety on your weapon is indeed a decision problem however it could also be considered a loss of motor skill problem.

Motor skill, lack of training or simply bad decision making the less an officer has going on in a bad situation the better they will be. I believe this thread has strayed to an area of confusion and honestly the debate is not between how we define motor skill function but more so of does strobe work. Lets keep this related to what we feel strobe does work for and why in order to not stray into other topics we both could probably talk about all night.


To the poster I believe it works very well to get attention and has many uses for both police, military, and civilian use. On a huge scale with very bright lights I feel it could be used to assist in confusing a large crowd while a perimeter is set in place. I believe it would also work for civilian use in order to gain an additional second or two if escape was the only objective. I do know it works very well on a busy street directing traffic or simply to be seen by other moving traffic.

I honestly do not feel it would help at all if used in the search of a location where contact was going to be made and especially if weapons were most likely involved. I fully believe in this situation an officer should have a simple one level light and make use of a forward clicky switch which I feel all patrol lights should have anyway. Personally I do much better with that method however again maybe others with experience can give you a different perspective.


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## Jaywalk3r (Jun 18, 2009)

Robocop said:


> Motor skill, lack of training or simply bad decision making the less an officer has going on in a bad situation the better they will be.



_"It can scarcely be denied that the supreme goal of all theory is to make the irreducible basic elements as simple and as few as possible without having to surrender the adequate representation of a single datum of experience."_
-Albert Einstein, Oxford, 10 June 1933​Or, as it is often paraphrased, _Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler._

My point is, in high stress situations, over-simplification can be (and has been) as fatal as over-complication.

If a strobe can be more effective in a particular situation, then it should absolutely be incorporated into training and used in real world situations. If that addition is too much for a particular officer to handle in a high stress situation, quite frankly, that person has no business working as a law enforcement officer. That may sound harsh, but an inability to think clearly and act appropriately in high stress situations puts lives at risk unnecessarily.


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## Search (Jun 18, 2009)

Jaywalk3r said:


> If a strobe can be more effective in a particular situation, then it should absolutely be incorporated into training and used in real world situations. If that addition is too much for a particular officer to handle in a high stress situation, quite frankly, that person has no business working as a law enforcement officer. That may sound harsh, but an inability to think clearly and act appropriately in high stress situations puts lives at risk unnecessarily.



The addition is too much.

Unless that officer will never clear a building in low light, which I would not count on, he cannot use a light that has a strobe.

Why? There are no lights in existence that has a strobe feature that is access by anything but cycling the tailcap.

Flash, move, flash, move flash, move, strobe, oh sh*t.

The officer would have to carry two lights, a duty light and a tactical light. 

Robocop is 100% right in everything he has said and my training backs that up entirely.

High stress means you need a light that is going to do the same thing every time you turn it on and not go into funky flashing modes as that would hinder EVERYONES vision in low light. Throw in enough ambient light and the strobe loses it's effect more and more as more ambient light is introduced.

Strobe isn't a bad idea, but it has no place in Law Enforcement. It's useful, but would be difficult to implement into currently used tactics.

To sum it up, when an officer enters a high stress situation, he needs his equipment to do one thing. Strobing a flashlight is really unnecessary and would require the use of a separate light to do certain jobs. 

I do believe people would be killed trying to strobe subjects when they needed to be focused on other things.


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## Zatoichi (Jun 18, 2009)

Search said:


> Why? There are no lights in existence that has a strobe feature that is access by anything but cycling the tailcap.



The Jetbeam III M does. With the head loosened you have momentary or constant strobe.


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## Robocop (Jun 18, 2009)

For an officer to reach strobe function on any light I know of they will first have to cycle the switch. My opinion on this has always been the same and I have stated so in many threads....and this opinion is a main duty light should always be a simple one click on one click off. (forward clicky)

This is due to many factors with one being ease of use, less margin for tailcap or switch failure, simple reliability and I am sure there are others.

This example was demonstrated very clearly just a few months back with a rookie officer I was training. Remember earlier on in this I told of all officers I know who have had multi mode duty lights have always eventually abandoned their use...well this was one who did.

I was involved in a vehicle pursuit where the suspect struck several other cars and eventually was forced to stop. My recruit and I exited our vehicle and began to approach. I had the drivers side well illuminated while my partner took the passenger. I do not know how it happened however his light quickly switched to fast strobe. He began clicking the switch and in that brief second he was fumbling with his light the passenger jumped from the car catching him by suprise. Now you must understand there were people screaming, the horn on the car was stuck wide open, smoke everywhere and all kinds of movement inside the suspects car.

The good part is the passenger quickly went to the ground at gunpoint choosing not to fight...the bad part is that if he would have had a weapon it could have went bad quickly. Later that night while preparing my evaluation of the days actions I asked what happened. The recruit said he activated his light and it did not look bright enough so he activated the switch again however it went to strobe when he wanted high mode. He said he was only distracted for a split second by the strobe and did not see the passengers actions.....this split second of distraction will cost you your life.

I think his light was already on high mode and the ambient light made him think his light was on low. Whatever the cause his light had a strobe feature and it was activated at a bad time. This would never be an issue with a simple one stage duty light regardless of the environment. Two days later the recruit had a shiny new duty light.....with a single effective level of light.

If you want to carry a strobe light fine however I would do so in a duty bag as a spare for when it could be useful. If it is a feature of your main light it may simply get in the way as again anytime you add a variable to your equipment it raises the odds of a failure, or simple confusion, or even a bad decision under stress. If it is not there in the first place you never have to worry about it.

To the poster of this thread I suggest you try both and really decide if you want to use it at all. I would suggest maybe having a smaller back up light with strobe if you feel you want it while you keep your main light bright and simple. Use your main light for everything so you will develope a habit to naturally go to that if you are under stress.....good luck.

And Zatoichi in reply to your post below I do realize there are many ways to modify a light in order to achieve a result. This may be good for a camping light or something to use around the house however no officer I know uses a light with the head loosened to obtain a result.

Anytime you modify your equipment be it loosening the head or using foil to make better contact, soldering a resistor for two levels or any other changes you are asking for failure. Simple, effective, and reliable is the way to go.


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## Zatoichi (Jun 18, 2009)

Robocop said:


> And Zatoichi in reply to your post below I do realize there are many ways to modify a light in order to achieve a result. This may be good for a camping light or something to use around the house however no officer I know uses a light with the head loosened to obtain a result.



It's not a modification, it's a 2 mode light with one being user programmable. Tighten the head for full power, loosen for user defined mode. I'm not suggesting it's good for LEO's, just that such a light exists. I do think it's a great UI, as you get to select which mode you want before switching it on, like with the TK10 and TK11.


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## Jaywalk3r (Jun 18, 2009)

Search said:


> The addition is too much.
> 
> Unless that officer will never clear a building in low light, which I would not count on, he cannot use a light that has a strobe.



If the addition is too much, police work is the wrong occupation.



> The officer would have to carry two lights, a duty light and a tactical light.



There is _no_ excuse for an officer carrying only a single light. Two is one; one is none. All equipment can fail.



> High stress means you need a light that is going to do the same thing every time you turn it on and not go into funky flashing modes as that would hinder EVERYONES vision in low light.



Thank you, but I know _exactly_ what high stress means. I am also painfully aware that oversimplification can get people killed. One size fits all solutions rarely actually fit all scenarios.



> Throw in enough ambient light and the strobe loses it's effect more and more as more ambient light is introduced.



No one has advocated using strobe when it isn't the best mode for the task. What I said is that it _should_ be utilized when it _is_ the best mode for the task.



> To sum it up, when an officer enters a high stress situation, he needs his equipment to do one thing.



More accurately, when anyone enters a high stress situation, they need their equipment to work predictably, as they expect it to. Equipment that does only one thing is great if one performs the same task every single time, but when that isn't the case, equipment should be as adaptable as the person using it.



> I do believe people would be killed trying to strobe subjects when they needed to be focused on other things.



I know from experience that people can die when things are oversimplified.

* * * * *



Robocop said:


> For an officer to reach strobe function on any light I know of they will first have to cycle the switch. My opinion on this has always been the same and I have stated so in many threads....and this opinion is a main duty light should always be a simple one click on one click off. (forward clicky)



I don't disagree with that. That doesn't mean that it would not behoove an officer to carry another light that has an effective strobe mode.



> This example was demonstrated very clearly just a few months back with a rookie officer I was training. …



It sounds like the primary lesson to be taken from the experience is to know your equipment as though it is is an extension of yourself.



> He said he was only distracted for a split second by the strobe and did not see the passengers actions.....this split second of distraction will cost you your life.



Yes, distractions can be fatal. Lacking proper equipment for the task at hand can be just as fatal. Oversimplified procedures are a poor substitute for the ability to think clearly and act quickly and competently under pressure.


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## Justin Case (Jun 18, 2009)

Robocop said:


> Justin I tell ya I know nothing of Hicks law nor Fitts law however degredation of decision making under stress sounds to me to be the same thing as loss of fine motor skills. Who cares what it is called the end result of bad decisions or loss of motor skills is the same result and it is usually bad.



It does matter because the solutions differ. Decision making is mental. Motor skills are neuromuscular. Of course the end result may be the same, but the fix is not. And if you don't know how to fix the problem, then you have a problem.

Let's say that you place yourself in a situation where you have to make a split second, deadly force decision because you left cover. Sadly, you pop the opponent when you shouldn't have. What's the solution? A loss of fine motor skill problem might say, switch to firearms that have a safety dongle and require all users to carry with the safety on (e.g., Glocks are too dangerous even for cops). A degradation of decisionmaking problem might say, use better tactics and maintain distance and cover to maximize your reaction time.


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## Justin Case (Jun 18, 2009)

Robocop said:


> For an officer to reach strobe function on any light I know of they will first have to cycle the switch. My opinion on this has always been the same and I have stated so in many threads....and this opinion is a main duty light should always be a simple one click on one click off. (forward clicky)



Serial mode access (sequential button presses) for multimode lights suck. I've said that many times in other posts. But there are other UIs with dedicated strobes that don't require main tailcap button cycling to access strobe. For example, the OpticsHQ reverse multifunction tailcap has a side button. If you press the main button (the standard big tailcap button), you get high mode. If you keep pressing the big button and then also press the side button, you get strobe. Release the side button and you are immediately back in high. The Gladius uses a selector ring to switch modes. In both cases, strobe is a secondary function.

And of course, you can stick with a simple single mode light and create your own strobe function via rapid, repeated button presses or by wobbling the bezel. That's what I do.


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## Justin Case (Jun 18, 2009)

Search said:


> The addition is too much.
> 
> Unless that officer will never clear a building in low light, which I would not count on, he cannot use a light that has a strobe.
> 
> Why? There are no lights in existence that has a strobe feature that is access by anything but cycling the tailcap.



This is simply incorrect. There are plenty of lights in existence that have a strobe function accessed via means other than cyclic tailcap presses.

Gladius -- selector ring
Eagletac -- selector ring
Fenix P3D -- bezel twists
Olight M30 Triton -- side button
OpticsHQ tailcap -- side button


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## Jaywalk3r (Jun 18, 2009)

Justin Case said:


> You described officers forgetting how to take their pistols off safe. "Forgetting" is not a fine motor coordination problem. That is a brain-scrambled problem, i.e., decision-making. Look up the difference between Fitts's Law and Hick's Law. You appear to be talking about Hick's Law when talking about complicated equipment.



A very astute observation.


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## RyanA (Jun 18, 2009)

Justin Case said:


> This is simply incorrect. There are plenty of lights in existence that have a strobe function accessed via means other than cyclic tailcap presses.
> 
> Gladius -- selector ring
> Eagletac -- selector ring
> ...



I think the wiseled series of lights also had a dedicated button.


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## defloyd77 (Jun 18, 2009)

The 4Sevens Tactical Quark is another light that you can have it so loosening or tightening the head will go to strobe.


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## Justin Case (Jun 18, 2009)

Actually, it's the Olight M30 Triton with the side button, not the Fenix TK40. The TK40 has a very complicated button press UI that is slightly mitigated by a last mode memory feature.


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## Cataract (Jun 18, 2009)

I think the only actual advantage of a strobe in a tactical situation is that it will take much longer for the eyes to get used to it (I compared both in the mirror for about a minute). It takes a while for a strobe to actually disorient... Other than that, I think the real usefulness is for distress calls, as a flashing light attracts the attention more than just a light and will last longer.


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## Search (Jun 19, 2009)

From what I've seen in the Police world, strobe is never going to make it into training for plenty of reasons that have been stated.

Jay, yes it's an idea with pros, but it's also an idea with too many cons.

When bullets fly, the best of the best sometimes make mistakes, mistakes that kill. It's easier to allow officers to carry any light that want that meets certain guildines.

In todays tactical world, under the training I've been through and witnessed, rear tail-cap, single stage are what works and what keeps people alive.

That strobe affects more people than one. Disorientating everyone isn't a good thing. That goes back to only use it when the circumstances allow.

Our SRT team is one of the best in the State (go ask the SWAT instructors in Nashville) and it would never fly. Too many problems.

I'll give you this, strobe has a good use, but it's cons outweigh it's pros in real world application.

I trust one low light tactic: Flash -> Move, Flash -> Move, Flash -> Move.

I've got many hours logged with SRT on building clearing, felony car stops, perimeter clearing, rural sweeping, etc. Half done in low light. I can guarantee you anything but a single mode light will hinder more than help.

Idea is good, practicality in LEO work not so good.


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## Nos (Jun 19, 2009)

Generally strobe works.

I was on an exepition yesterday where a company presented a 40000 lumens led flooder......yes 600W and 40k.lumens!

i asked for a short presentation.......and this baby has bang! 

and guess what, they had 8hz strobe programmed....... after ~3 seconds of blinding strobe ( i couldnt even look into the direction) i saw all kinds of colours and had a little trouble with any kind of orientation and my balance

some seconds later everything was fine again....and everyone in the room was looking into our direction, some amazed some really confused.....

i can tell you strobe does work... but i takes a lot more than 100 lumens to be effective


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## Jaywalk3r (Jun 19, 2009)

@ Search

I think we agree on things more than you realize. The biggest difference I see is that I believe one should train and be prepared to use optimal tools in as many situations as possible, while you're advocating using the optimal tools in most cases, and using those same tools in less frequent scenarios when they may not be optimal, but will probably be adequate.

To be clear, you're not going to change my opinion. I've seen oversimplified, one size fits all solutions get people killed unnecessarily. Nor does it appear that I'm going to change yours. That's fine. At the end of the day, we are all responsible for saving our own lives. Do what you're comfortable doing.


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## alpg88 (Jun 19, 2009)

hey Jaywalk3r, are you a leo?


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## Jaywalk3r (Jun 19, 2009)

alpg88 said:


> hey Jaywalk3r, are you a leo?



Nope. Virgo.


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## alpg88 (Jun 19, 2009)

Jaywalk3r said:


> Nope. Virgo.



lol, good one, but i meant Law Enforcment Officer.


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## Search (Jun 19, 2009)

For working the streets and dealing with people there is a place for strobe.

That officer however, would have to carry another light that was a single stage for tactical situations.

Tactical and strobe is a big no no. Normal things like dealing with drunks, bangers, idiots, etc, would be fine. As long as that light never saw tactical use.


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## Jaywalk3r (Jun 19, 2009)

alpg88 said:


> lol, good one, but i meant Law Enforcment Officer.



As I've previously posted in this thread, no I am not a LEO. That is why I have not offered any advice to LEO's with respect to what situations they might encounter for which strobe would be beneficial. Other veteran officers have already made such claims, and I have respected that they know more about law enforcement specific scenarios.

I'm no stranger to unexpected, high stress, life or death situations. Those are in no way exclusive to law enforcement. Nor are general principles for equipping and training for such situations. Those principles can (and should) be applied to any dangerous activity in which participants must be prepared for the unexpected.


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## Jaywalk3r (Jun 19, 2009)

Search said:


> That officer however, would have to carry another light that was a single stage for tactical situations.



The officers _should_ be carrying multiple lights. That's a no brainer. Two is one; one is none. I've never talked to a LEO who only carried a single light. Heck, I was talking with one last week who changes up his lights depending on what stage of a traffic stop he is in. He uses one light for his initial encounter with the driver and a different light when he returns with the ticket. I doubt that 99% of people he stops even notice the different light. Besides those two he'll have 2-3 others on his person, because, according to him, different situations call for different lights.

Having said that, the primary light should be single mode and well suited for the majority of needs, to paraphrase what I have stated previously.


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## Lightraven (Jun 19, 2009)

"Tactical Situations"

Anybody want to define that for me? {Trick question!!! Don't do it!!!}

Seriously, what is it?


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## defloyd77 (Jun 19, 2009)

All of this talk about LEO's, backup lights and all of that kind of makes me laugh, well laugh at my local PD. They carry 2D Mags. With near dead batteries. Maybe a MiniMag as backup, most likely with dead batteries too. Bike cops use those cheap POS Bell incan headlights. Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside ya know?


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## berry580 (Jun 19, 2009)

Robocop said:


> I have been an officer for 12 years now and all 12 have been on night shift patrol. I have been on hundreds of entries in my career and also know several members of other swat trained teams in various states. I have been to training classes for high risk entries and have also had many classes on tactical lighting usage......many classes were taught by some very high speed people with more than enough qualifications. (Feds, DOJ, Military)
> 
> In all 12 years of both actual real world patrol as well as training I have never used any strobe feature nor have I ever seen it used. I have never heard of it mentioned in training and any who I ask simply laugh and say it is actually useless.
> 
> ...


I think the above answer sound fairly decent. 

I'm not a cop, but just a karateka (karate student), when someone attacks in sparring, the most basic things will save your *** 99% of the time. "Advanced blocks", flying spinning reverse super duper hook kicks won't work. Move back, move to the side, simple block is the best.

Now of course bullets zipping around you is MUCH more frightening (i can imagine). But the underlying concept is the same. If you want something to work under distress, it better be f***ing simple to use.

And point the gun + flashlight at the damn target would be the most intuitive.

i.e. "Tactical strobe" down to the core is probably a "Tactical Marketing Solution"


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## RyanA (Jun 19, 2009)

There are lights with strobe that are simple to operate. This whole strobe < simple thing is kind of fallacious. They are not mutually exclusive, perhaps simple + practical, combined with stobe is. There are lights that strobe that are a point and click interface. Also, not every police officer is shot at on a day to day basis. Many can go for an entire career without drawing their gun. It is really more about how each person thinks they will use the light, and weather or not they think it will work to their advantage. Again, clearly not for gunfights. And if it was opponents would not be standing there strobing each other and firing off shots like the movies. The Mexican standoff is a myth left over from the days when guns where all sa revolvers and people shot from the hip.


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## Jaywalk3r (Jun 20, 2009)

berry580 said:


> when someone attacks in sparring, the most basic things will save your *** 99% of the time.



Keep things as simple as possible, _but no simpler_. Being prepared 99% of the time isn't good enough when one takes risks everyday. If a LEO is only properly prepared 99% of the time, if the encounter only one life or death situation each year, over the course of twenty years, there is greater than an 18% chance that they'll end up dead by the end of the twentieth year. Those aren't very good odds when one is putting _everything_ at risk.


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## Search (Jun 20, 2009)

A normal situation in the Police world is just dealing with people, answering calls, making traffic stops, patrolling, etc, etc, etc. Pretty much everything you see on Cops.

A tactical situation in the Police world is when you have to go into a place (Building, Factory, House, Back yard, School, Forest, Graveyard, Bus, Airplane, Junkyard, etc) knowing that there are people inside who are/are possible armed. You also have to be in the mindset they want to kill you.

HOWEVER, doesn't mean you just shoot.

Normal situations the citizens know your there, your actions are just "working the beat".

Tactical situations require you to find people or look for people who you don't want to know what you are doing.

It's a SWAT team storming a barricaded mans house. It's a patrol officer chasing someone into a building for some reason and then having to find him. It's an open door and then the officers having to clear it. It's a man with a gun who ran into a wooded area.

You aren't going to go into the situations standing straight up, walking like your checking out the roses, talking about the football game.

Your going to have you body, weapons, and gear into positions where you can quickly and effectively have your sights on a person before they can you, and hopefully surprising them, so they can't do harm to you or your team.

At night, you aren't going to have your flashlight on the entire time. Your going to flash -> move, flash -> move, etc, etc, etc. in order to keep your exact location unknown so a subject can't shoot you and you not even see him.

To add a little something. In half the situations the subject/s is going to know you are there obviously so sometimes you storm places quickly with force (and sense) to overwhelm them and control them before they take action.

I'm not good at explaining.

___


The flashlight that you can twist the bezel and go into strobe modes has an overwhelming flaw. That strobe mode by twisting the bezel is in NO WAY tactical.

It's impossible to twist a bezel with a gun in the other hand. It will never be holstered until that specific situation is over and then why would you need strobe? Keeping it in that strobe mode is also very wrong because strobe is meant to be an addition to a light source, not the light source.

The ones with the side button was a good idea except for one thing.

You have to be holding the light in your hand with your thumb on the switch to be able to activate it easily. Easy is better, no complicated finger moves or it's no longer tactical.

It would also mean only one hand holding the gun and you just lost accuracy. If you can't hit your targer.. then why did you even sign up for this.

Using the Rogers/SureFire technique, which is dominant from what I've seen, you can't hit the side button on purpose. You can hit it on accident and if you didn't even want light, your position is blown and your team is going to kick you in the ***..


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## Search (Jun 20, 2009)

Jaywalk3r said:


> Keep things as simple as possible, _but no simpler_. Being prepared 99% of the time isn't good enough when one takes risks everyday. If a LEO is only properly prepared 99% of the time, if the encounter only one life or death situation each year, over the course of twenty years, there is greater than an 18% chance that they'll end up dead by the end of the twentieth year. Those aren't very good odds when one is putting _everything_ at risk.



Whoever calculated that has never been a cop.

I told my instructor one day I wanted to train more before I hit the streets because I wanted to be prepared.

His answer was if you find a cop in this country who is prepared for a lot of the things they come across, no matter how long they've been here, you will be the first.

In his 12 years he said he still doesn't know what he is doing when he goes on some calls.

A good saying is that Murphy sits in a Police Officers lap. If it can go wrong, it is in this line of work.

I think you were talking about equipment and tactics, and yes I would hope everyone is 100 percent prepared. However, the only thing cops are 100% prepared for is the fact that they could die at any given time.

No situation is like another and because of that, you can't be 100% prepared for everything.

You are right and wrong in a way. It's a tricky thing. Officers are prepared and aren't prepared. Overcome and adapt fills in the rest of the percentage.

"You go to the Academy to learn what you need to pass the Academy, but you go to work to learn your job. Your job is never going to stop changing, and your never going to stop learning it."


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## Justin Case (Jun 20, 2009)

Search said:


> A normal situation in the Police world is just dealing with people, answering calls, making traffic stops, patrolling, etc, etc, etc. Pretty much everything you see on Cops.
> 
> A tactical situation in the Police world is when you have to go into a place (Building, Factory, House, Back yard, School, Forest, Graveyard, Bus, Airplane, Junkyard, etc) knowing that there are people inside who are/are possible armed. You also have to be in the mindset they want to kill you.
> 
> ...



With all due respect, your CPF profile says you are 20 yo, and thus aren't even old enough to legally buy a handgun in the US yet. So, just what is your world experience to be able to say with authority that the cigar flashlight method is "dominant" from what you've seen? You've seen it all?

And to say only search, entries, and the like are "tactical situations", while everything else is not is patently false. Ever hear of the "routine traffic stop" that wasn't? Yet, you put traffic stops in the non-tactical situation category.

Everything involves tactics. Ever position your vehicle at an angle to provide more cover if necessary? Position yourself to the side of the driver, not squarely in front of him? Use your vehicle lights to illuminate the stopped vehicle interior and to get some light reflecting off his mirrors so that his view of your approach is degraded? When you talk with someone, ever use a bladed stance, perhaps combined with the "Jack Benny" arm positioning? Tactics.

Re: one handed shooting. You had better practice it. There is no guarantee that you will have two hands available. Since cop hit rates presumably with 2 hands is already at around 20%, it seems to me that any complaints about inability to make hits with one handed shooting miss the point.

Not sure what kind of side button light you are talking about. If you are talking about the old Maglites and similar lights, you can use the Chapman method and get just as good of a two-hand hold on the gun as with the cigar method.

Re: bezel twist interface. I note that your sig line includes the Fenix PD30, which uses this exact UI. I also note that the PD30 has a Turbo mode that includes Turbo and Strobe. So once you select that mode (ahead of time), you can operate in Turbo exclusively if you so choose. If you want Strobe, you soft-press the tailcap button. To get back to Turbo, soft-press again. No further bezel twists necessary. So, the knock on the bezel twist UI really depends on how it is designed.

I also note that the PD30 can tailstand because it has a recessed tailcap button. Kind of makes it more difficult for the cigar method, doesn't it? If you are going to carry a light, it might be a good idea that its operating characteristics match those of your other lights. Otherwise, you are going to be in for a rude surprise when you can't switch to your favorite light because of exigent circumstances and have to go with what you have in-hand. Operational consistency IMO is part of your "simplicity" argument.

FYI, flash, move, flash, move is a version of strobing. The strobe rate can be moderately fast, say 4-5 Hz, or slow, say 0.5-1 Hz. And as you say, strobing can be useful "in order to keep your exact location unknown so a subject can't shoot you".

Also, strobing doesn't mean that there has to be a dedicated strobe function built into the flashlight. For a long time, we used manual tailcap presses on our SureFires.


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## Jaywalk3r (Jun 20, 2009)

Search said:


> The flashlight that you can twist the bezel and go into strobe modes has an overwhelming flaw. That strobe mode by twisting the bezel is in NO WAY tactical.
> 
> It's impossible to twist a bezel with a gun in the other hand. It will never be holstered until that specific situation is over and then why would you need strobe? Keeping it in that strobe mode is also very wrong because strobe is meant to be an addition to a light source, not the light source.



You keep tearing down the same straw man to make your argument.


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## Jaywalk3r (Jun 20, 2009)

Search said:


> Whoever calculated that has never been a cop.



LMAO! Please, tell us how a cop would make the calculation. Your statement implies that all cops are unable to make simple mathematical calculations.

If you want to claim that cops are prepared for more than 99% of the situations they encounter, then yes, that would imply that their chance of survival is higher. But with one encounter with a 99% chance of survival each year for twenty years or until an officer dies, whichever comes first, there is greater than an 18% probability that the officer will die in the line of duty within twenty years.



> I told my instructor one day I wanted to train more before I hit the streets because I wanted to be prepared.
> 
> His answer was if you find a cop in this country who is prepared for a lot of the things they come across, no matter how long they've been here, you will be the first.



It doesn't look as though you're arguing that the police are prepared more than 99% of the time.



> Officers are prepared and aren't prepared. Overcome and adapt fills in the rest of the percentage.



That's a significant change from what you've previously advocated in this thread. Overcome and adapt is what _I_ (and others) have been advocating. Lack of preparation for the sake of simplicity is foolhardy.


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## Lightraven (Jun 20, 2009)

WARNING!!! Trick question! 
Answer if you dare. Get 1 point for balls if you answer, 1 point for experience/wisdom if you don't. Everyone's a winner! Answer appears next Lightraven post.

Tactical Situations?

1. Sitting in your patrol vehicle at midnight, drinking coffee, listening to AM radio (Art Bell, probably) somewhere on your beat.

2. Vehicle stop for a possible non violent felony that is often not prosecuted.

3. Uniformed officer driving down the road, sees suspicious activity involving a SUV and numerous people who match a profile/don't belong to a high crime area. Does a U turn to check it out.

4. Chasing a possible felon, on foot, in the dark.

5. Multi agency hunt for an active shooter who has killed two LEOs and 2-3 citizens.

6. A police chief enters a briefing room to make a question/answer session to a room filled with armed officers of his agency. Tells them no raises because, "We can hire and retain people with what we pay now, so there probably will be no raise."


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## Search (Jun 20, 2009)

I believe we're on the same page as far as strobing Justin. It's a good idea with benefits ONLY if that officer has two lights. One light for duty carry and another for tactical carry. For example I carry a TK11 (for now) using low mode for general things and my high mode for more tactical things. Then an E1B popped into low to search cars for example.

When I was explaining tactical situations it was just a simple overview. Traffic stops don't go "tactical" unless it goes bad. Then you revert into some more tactical tactics. You get my point.

The PD30 is a great example of what a main light could be. It can be kept in a pocket and used for traffic stops, talking with people, doing patrol, calls, everything. There would need to be a holstered light, like the M3 for example, for when you need a more tactical light.

Yes you are right, flash -> move is a strobe, but it's a controlled strobe. A strobe function on the tactical light wouldn't allow you to maneuver in any environment with success and when you needed to go light on you would have some difficulties. For instance, you perform a felony stop and pull the driver out with gun and light and now have to put more time into twisting the bezel on the light or twisting the ring and that's not a good thing.

On the duty light, a selector ring might be too much for if things elevate and you keep that light in hand. Twisting the bezel falls in. However, cycling the switch is fast and doesn't take thought.

So to sum it up. In my opinion, a duty light with a strobe built into the cycle like the PD30 would be safer and easier. I'll give an example down below. A second, tactical light (if a non tactical light is also chosen for carry) would need to be carried.

If someone runs into a building with a gun for example, you would need a tactical like like a TK10.
If a traffic stop goes bad and a shootout follows, you wouldn't need a "tactical" light. It wouldn't hurt to have a strobing light. Therefore something that's easy to cycle under stress AND with a gun in hand would be ok. It also helps when you perform normal duties.

Also, the tactical light would serve as a backup to the main light.

I've got over 200 hours in training with Instructors and the SWAT team. I don't wear a uniform but I do work under certain circumstances and am allowed to go hands on and do work with officers. In a few months I'll be an official Reserve officer. In the mean time I do what I can without being able to carry or actually arrest. When I say what I've seen, it's from all my training and interactions. I wouldn't speak of things I don't know. I speak of what I've been taught.


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## arowana (Jun 20, 2009)

I think the term "tactical strobe" does not necessary have to imply utilization in direct combat situations. 

For example if the strobe light is strong enough to be used as a signaling device to mark out the spot for a night helicopter evacuation after a mission, wouldn't that alone let it be called a tactical strobe?


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## Search (Jun 20, 2009)

arowana said:


> For example if the strobe light is strong enough to be used as a signaling device to mark out the spot for a night helicopter evacuation after a mission, wouldn't that alone let it be called a tactical strobe?



It would, except with current technology it would be a last ditch move.

They have IR markers and pilots use NVGs so it's all invisible to the naked eye strobing.

Putting an IR filter on an incandescent light then strobing it, if it's possible, would be more low key.


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## Justin Case (Jun 20, 2009)

Search said:


> I believe we're on the same page as far as strobing Justin. It's a good idea with benefits ONLY if that officer has two lights. One light for duty carry and another for tactical carry. For example I carry a TK11 (for now) using low mode for general things and my high mode for more tactical things. Then an E1B popped into low to search cars for example.
> 
> When I was explaining tactical situations it was just a simple overview. Traffic stops don't go "tactical" unless it goes bad. Then you revert into some more tactical tactics. You get my point.
> 
> ...



Tactical this, tactical that. What's your definition of tactics? Until then, I still don't know what you mean when you say a traffic stop, for example, doesn't go tactical until it goes bad. Until then, what are you doing? Stupid stuff? Then you revert to more "tactical tactics"? What does that mean? As opposed to non-tactical tactics? What would those be?

Here's my definition of tactics: Anything that you do to give yourself more turns at-bat than the other guy.

Controlled strobe? What's that?

What is a tactical light vs non-tactical light? Why would the non-tactical light be the primary light? Situations can be fast-moving and fluid. Do you really think you ought to be switching to a different light, if you need illumination right now? It's a different matter to carry a backup light in case the primary fails, gets lost, or whatever. You have no choice but to switch.

I have over 1000 hours of weapons, combatives, and tactics training. So what. We all speak of what we've seen and have been taught. I also have 20 years advising various Fed gov't agencies as a professional analyst.

IMO, there is no rigorous, empirical evidence to support the vast majority of firearms tactics and doctrine. Heck, folks still can't agree on whether Weaver or Isosceles is better. We have trainers teaching to put fresh magazines into mag pouches with the bullet tips facing backward. The point shooting vs sighted fire debate rages on. Tastes great, less filling. Is there any surprise that folks can't agree on the utility or lack of utility for strobe, much less for what application(s)?

What we try to do is articulate a logical and detailed analysis of why we do what we do. This includes an analysis of the competing techniques. We then choose the techniques which we believe offers the greatest performance for our mission statement. The definition of greatest performance doesn't always mean fastest. It can be a balance between speed and reliability. It might involve motor movement consistency with other skills such as unarmed combatives, thus forming a coherent, integrated fighting system. It might favor gross motor movement and minimum decision branches.


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## Search (Jun 21, 2009)

Justin Case said:


> Tactical this, tactical that. What's your definition of tactics? Until then, I still don't know what you mean when you say a traffic stop, for example, doesn't go tactical until it goes bad. Until then, what are you doing? Stupid stuff? Then you revert to more "tactical tactics"? What does that mean? As opposed to non-tactical tactics? What would those be?
> 
> Here's my definition of tactics: Anything that you do to give yourself more turns at-bat than the other guy.
> 
> ...



Non-tactical is what Officers do on a normal basis. Tactical is what a SWAT team would be doing. However, we aren't talking about SWAT teams but regular Officers can now turn into First Responders if there is no time for a SWAT team, which is why we all go through SWAT training.

Because there is the chance a patrolman will have to fill the role of a SWAT operator, I come to my opinion.

It would be unwise to have just a light like a PD30 as you would need to also have something like the TK10 when going more tactical where you don't want to keep your light on all of the time, but can't afford to have the thing cycling modes. 

If a police officer is going to have ONE light, it would have to be a "tactical" flashlight. He needs to have that, period. As he can't afford to try to use it momentarily and then the thing go into other modes.

Uncontrolled strobe is the strobe feature on a light. It is great for duty work, but unacceptable when things go "tactical". Controlled strobe would be flash -> move, flash -> move, etc... hypothetically.

I would like to see the strobe feature utilized. However, it has it's place and that's normal duty work. *When an officer turns into a First Responder, he needs a solid tactical light. The strobe will never have a place there under current low-light tactics. Which seem to be working well. *<--- I think you can agree with me there.

There are tactics in everything, but that doesn't turn it into a tactical situation. A Security Guard has tactics but isn't performing any tactical duties.

On a separate note and completely random. I feel more comfortable using the Weaver but the Isosceles is what's taught in house and in the academy. Sweeping a building with your arms fully extended doesn't feel right. 

We are going to have to come to some kind of agreement sometime. However I will admit you have opened my eyes on some things.


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## Jaywalk3r (Jun 21, 2009)

Search said:


> It would be unwise to have just a light like a PD30 as you would need to also have something like the TK10 when going more tactical where you don't want to keep your light on all of the time, but can't afford to have the thing cycling modes.



That's a great straw man you keep knocking down, but nobody is making such a claim. 



> If a police officer is going to have ONE light, it would have to be a "tactical" flashlight.



I would consider an officer carrying only one flashlight to be a warning sign of incompetence on the part of that officer.



> The strobe will never have a place there under current low-light tactics. Which seem to be working well.



Are you suggesting that there is no room for refinements and improvements for current low light tactics?

"We've always done it this way" is a great philosophy if one wants to continue making the same mistakes over and over.


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## Robocop (Jun 21, 2009)

Many people have said that if an officer can not think clearly under stress they should not be an officer. Honestly I know many good officers that may not have up to date training or even very much experience with true life or death situations. The reality is training costs money that many depts. will not spend and it also takes time which many depts. will not spare an officer for weeks of training.

The reality is that most officers can go months or even years without an incident. They are still a sworn officer and could at any moment be placed under great stress. SWAT has the luxury of being called after an event and can set up properly to deal with situations. The problem here is that SWAT is usually a very small percentage of any Dept. Most dangerous situations are first encountered by the basic patrol officer who always has less training however is expected to perform miracles none the less.

This is one reason I believe the average every day patrol officer must have the most simple equipment. They may not have the ability to train weekly and may not have daily experience of violent encounters. In a perfect world all patrolmen could hit a target running at 200 yards while under fire however reality is they will miss with 3 out of four rounds less than 50 feet.

Most average street officers go day to day and rarely use much less check their equipment. Sure it is a bad habit however I see it every day. I know many day shift officers who rarely use their light and when it is really needed it has lost its charge. I have seen veteran officers who only clean their weapon after annual qualification so you can imagine the condition of their other duty belt items.

When you try and introduce a feature such as strobe to the general, and much larger, population of patrol officers it will only complicate their reactions due to lack of experience and training. Sure a SWAT officer who has practiced every day and who may be able to think more clear may be able to better deal with a strobe light......but I tell you those guys are very rarely first on the scene.

Yes it is sad that every officer is not a high speed super hero however any plain old street cop can be expected to perform as one any day of the week. It may take 20 years for an officer to be in a deadly encounter however when that does happen simple, reliable equipment can off set the lack of experience and training. It may not help much however again any advantage in that situation is welcome.

To those involved in this debate who have never been under fire it is very easy to assume something as simple as a flashlight can be functioned under stress. I have been shot at, stabbed, run over by a car, dragged by a car, punched, bitten, and many other things. Yes I survived partly by luck, partly by experience and physical condition and partly by calm thinking under stress. Regardless of how calm I was I still remember fumbling with my radio trying to give my location...I remember feeling numb all over...I remember trying to do all the right things and making mistakes. I learned from them all however true stress will suprise you regardless of training or experience.

For the everyday beat cop who may not be as experienced I again say strobe does them no good on their main duty light. The reasons are many but mostly due to the fact most officers will not have the best training. Their equipment must do one simple thing each and every time and fact is almost every dangerous encounter will be a sudden suprise to a street cop.

As far as strobe actually working against an attacker, crowd, or other threat I can surely see where it would help confuse anyone. In a very dark environment with a bright enough light I believe it may be very helpful. This of course would most likely be a pre-planned assault of a target with much time planning and preparing involved.

In a city setting with ambient light or during any suprise situation a street cop may face I still believe it would only get in the way. I am as big of a flashaholic as anyone here and believe me when I say I really use my lights each chance I get. I love the new technology involved and try to always carry the best light for duty. I really wanted strobe to be a miracle for patrol work and if it were something light related that I could use I would be the first to carry it as I am still a flashaholic.....believe me when I say if it worked for patrol I would use it nightly however it does not thus it is retired to my duty bag for when it is best needed under certain, low stress situations.

I work with almost 900 other officers over several shifts and areas of the city. A small part of these are dedicated SWAT members as well as other specialty responders. Out of all combined again I know none who really endorse strobe on their lights as they all go with simple and very bright one level lights.....there has got to be a reason it is not catching on. It looks great on paper and experts can talk about it all day however when actually trying to adapt it to several situations in real life it is more of a problem than help. 

When I say I work with I am saying I actually do it every night. I do not play at being involved I am involved. I do not watch others and form an opinion nor do I take every training class and form my opinions.....I form my opinions from hands on experience and from trial and error as I have made mistakes and learned from them. I have seen others make mistakes and not have the ability to learn from them as their mistake cost them their life.

I have enjoyed this thread and again I do hope the poster as well as others have learned something they may actually use. All involved have given good information on both sides of the issue. I am pretty much done with my part here and hope this thread can continue in a civil manner. Again good luck and to everyone in the field stay safe....


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## Lightraven (Jun 21, 2009)

For those playing at home, let's review our situations to see if they were tactical or not.

Situations 1-5
5 officers from my agency were shot at the exact moment they were performing each of the activities described. All returned to duty status, except the officer from situation 4, who died at the scene.

Officers 1-3 told me personally what it was like to be shot. Officer 1, my academy classmate, fan of Braveheart and Tombstone and Special Ops Capable Marine who was in Somalia prior to Blackhawk Down and got minor harassment fire there, was shot in the forehead by a sniper with a 7.62X39 mm rifle from over 400 yards--in San Diego. Those three coworkers told me why they were doing what they were doing, what they did afterwards and how their critics could go screw themselves--or was that me who said that? Officer 5 (shot through the lung by a high powered rifle) was interviewed for an agency internal documentary.

That's just a small sample of the officers from my agency who have been shot in the last 14 years, since I've been around. The total is probably around 20, though we are pretty big. The total doesn't include those who took fire but weren't hit or those run over by cars. 

A couple weeks ago, my supervisor radioed he was pinned down by an angry crowd attacking him with rocks. Nothing new there. Then, he said one was pointing a shotgun at him. I went code 3 to my jump off point, got my rifle, trauma bag and binos and got out on foot. By the time SWAT arrived, 90 minutes later, I was at the beach eating lunch and listening to talk radio.

And that brings us to Situation 6. No shots were fired. In fact, nobody lost their temper. There were two guys from SWAT (one my academy classmate and rival--I got honor grad, he got SWAT) wearing ill-fitting suits standing in their "points of domination" along the walls, obviously protecting the chief. For those who think SWAT=tactical situation or tactical situation=entry into a room of armed people, then this is the tactical situation.


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## Jaywalk3r (Jun 21, 2009)

Robocop said:


> Many people have said that if an officer can not think clearly under stress they should not be an officer.
> 
> 
> > I've made that statement, and I stand by that statement. If they cannot think clearly under stress, they place others lives at risk, not only the lives of other cops, but, far more importantly, the lives of civilians.
> ...


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## Justin Case (Jun 21, 2009)

Robocop said:


> It may take 20 years for an officer to be in a deadly encounter however when that does happen simple, reliable equipment can off set the lack of experience and training.



I'm going to focus just on this one statement. IMO, what it takes #1 is the indominable will to win (mindset). The priorities of survival are

1. Mindset
2. Tactics
3. Skill
4. Equipment
5. Luck

You are focusing on #4, near the bottom in the list of priorities (really, right at the bottom, since #5 is out of your control). If an officer has poor experience and poor training (which probably means he has poor tactics and poor skill), I doubt that equipment is going to help. Priority #5 is probably the best bet.


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## Crenshaw (Jun 21, 2009)

I just read this whole thread.....and...sorry Justin, 99% of real world use says that while strobing works probably 90% of the time (optimistic numbers) Single mode lights work 100% of the time. Im no leo,but In a situation with bullets flying around, I prefer 100%, even if im not gonna be the one using the gun. 

and by single mode lights, what i mean, is lights that can be locked on a single mode, like the Tactical Quarks. 

Personally, I find strobe annoying, and can gives people a headache, but like many anecdotes here, you'd be surprised how easily these can be overcome by someone determined enough.

I also think, that Strobing will only have an incapacitating effect, when its done in crazy amounts, like that 40000lumen flooder 

Crenshaw


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## Justin Case (Jun 21, 2009)

Crenshaw said:


> I just read this whole thread.....and...sorry Justin, 99% of real world use says that while strobing works probably 90% of the time (optimistic numbers) Single mode lights work 100% of the time. Im no leo,but In a situation with bullets flying around, I prefer 100%, even if im not gonna be the one using the gun.



You didn't read with comprehension then. You are constructing a false premise, straw argument. I never said anything about using strobe when bullets are "flying around".



Crenshaw said:


> and by single mode lights, what i mean, is lights that can be locked on a single mode, like the Tactical Quarks.



So you are recommending a light that hasn't even shipped yet, much less been used and abused in actual operations? Ok....


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## RyanA (Jun 21, 2009)

Where is everyone getting the idea that police officers are being shot at from the moment they leave the house with their uniform on? I have a lot of friends who are police, none of them have ever been shot at.


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## Robocop (Jun 21, 2009)

My comments are aimed at the hundreds of thousand officers nationwide who are not experts. The vast majority of police do not have proper training and while I am not trying to justify sub-standard officers it is a reality none the less. I have seen seasoned and proven experts make mistakes and on the other side I have seen rookie officers with no experience perform very well. You just can not tell about an officer until it happens to them.

Out of all the variables we can not control the one we can control is equipment. I stand by my statement that even a decorated, experienced, SWAT trained officer could have problems under life or death situations.

I will remain out of this thread in order not to be seen as biased should it be closed later due to drama. Take my comments as you will and again good luck to future officers who may take something from all the comments in this thread.


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## Jaywalk3r (Jun 21, 2009)

Robocop said:


> You just can not tell about an officer until it happens to them.



Right. I said that.

Additionally, if an officer performs poorly in such a high stress situations, that should be viewed as a warning sign that law enforcement might not be the best career choice for them.

Not everybody is well suited for the job. It doesn't make them a lesser person. OTOH, recognizing that they aren't well suited for the job (and acting appropriately on that recognition) could very well save lives, including their own.

Taking steps to ensure that those ill suited to the profession don't stay in it would help significantly by reducing the need to oversimplify training and equipment choices.


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## Mjolnir (Jun 21, 2009)

I think that you should probably just close this thread now. It has become to long for me to read through all of it, but it definitely seems like it is escalating to a more aggressive state than it originally was. I like reading good discussions, but this is turning into an argument with both sides trying to convince the other to change their mind; however, I don't see that either side is going to change their opinions in the near future, and it doesn't seem like anyone is any closer to reaching a consensus on use of strobes.


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## Ken J. Good (Jun 21, 2009)

Put this together about a year ago, it's dated and incomplete, but it will suffice.

http://polarion-usa.com/pdfs/Strobing-Light-KenGood.pdf

Really haven't been playing with small lights or strobing small lights for quite some time.

Bottom line for me: I have had many, many police officers, military folks and "civilians" personally email me with their stories and their thanks for the tool.

User Know-how, user-interface, strobe rate, intensity and the situation at hand all play a factor in the outcome of any encounter.

There is is no one "right answer" or do all tool.

As an FYI: The last training session I did (about 60 days ago - First one in about 2 years) for a fugitive recovery task force (CA DOJ) was conducted in low-light. Without "selling" anything, I simply went into the darkened shoot-house using Simunitions FX and solved the same problems presented to the officers at hand.

To a person, they wanted to know where to get what I had in my hand (It happend to be a modded Gladius...go figure). Being the receiving end of proper movement and the correct application of lighting principles "sells" itself.

State your credentials, abilities and well-reasoned opinions all you want.
Nobody at this point has convinced me that I am better off without the strobe as an option in my arsenal of choices.


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## TITAN1833 (Jun 21, 2009)

With the best strobes in the world,

and the best training in the world,

and the best will in the world,

will not prepare you for the unexpected,try as you will.

The fact is the unexpected doesn't come with warnings and for every training manual there's the unexpected you haven't trained for,fact it's a impromptu act that follows no patterns,rules or manuals it's just that,the unexpected 

That said if the strobe gives you a little confidence then! it's better than non.

be safe guys :wave:


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## Jaywalk3r (Jun 21, 2009)

TITAN1833 said:


> With the best strobes in the world,
> 
> and the best training in the world,
> 
> ...



There is a difference between being prepared for the unexpected and expecting the unexpected. We _can_ prepare for the unexpected.

An example: When I deploy a parachute, I do not expect a malfunction, as the reliability is very high, over 99.7%. I am, however, prepared for a malfunction. I have a reserve parachute, and I've drilled my emergency procedures 1000's of times, simulating many different scenarios (e.g. rapidly spinning malfunctions, high speed malfunctions, malfunctions at very low altitudes, etc.). I'm well prepared for a malfunction even if it isn't expected.

People don't expect their homes to catch fire, but are usually prepared for that possibility (to varying degrees). They tend to carry fire insurance and know how to contact the fire department.

Likewise, every LEO I've ever talked to is prepared for each and every traffic stop to result in a potentially life or death situation. On any given traffic stop, however, they do not _expect_ their life to be in grave danger despite preparing for that possibility.

Adding strobe to their arsenal of tools and training with its use allows officers to further prepare themselves for dangerous situations. That doesn't mean they expect such situations to occur regularly.


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## [email protected] (Jun 21, 2009)

Search said:


> If a traffic stop goes bad and a shootout follows, you wouldn't need a "tactical" light. It wouldn't hurt to have a strobing light. Therefore something that's easy to cycle under stress AND with a gun in hand would be ok. It also helps when you perform normal duties.



Not fond of having to waste time cycling through modes to reach the strobe feature (this is obviously worse with 5+ multimode lights), I believe 'G.P.' makes an AI tailcap to suit SF 6Ps (and their clones) which allows for normal on OR strobe mode selection, now this I like and is keeping the whole process simple :thumbsup:




Search said:


> I've got over 200 hours in training with Instructors and the SWAT team. I don't wear a uniform but I do work under certain circumstances and am allowed to go hands on and do work with officers. In a few months I'll be an official Reserve officer. In the mean time I do what I can without being able to carry or actually arrest. When I say what I've seen, it's from all my training and interactions. I wouldn't speak of things I don't know. I speak of what I've been taught.



So that's makes you an Auxiliary/Volunteer Police officer? :thinking:


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## Robocop (Jun 21, 2009)

Ken it is good to hear from you as always and your input is appreciated. I said earlier you do have much knowlege as to lighting and hope you can continue to discuss this. I do hope this thread can continue as there is good information from all sides. It seems as if this thread is taking the tone of baiting at times and again I will caution everyone to make your point without baiting remarks.


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## Robocop (Jun 21, 2009)

Gentleman thanks for all involved who gave their input however it does appear as if a few are attempting to derail this thread. It borders on baiting and I believe it is simply best to close it now before it spins out of control.

To the poster I do hope you were able to get enough information to help you with your question and good luck in the future.


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