# Reliability: SF P90 or G&P G90 with R123s



## a99raptors (Jan 21, 2006)

Hi everyone!

I was wondering which was more reliable to use with unprotected rechargeable 123s, the SF P90 or the G&P G90? I was wondering if any of you had any bad experience with either lamp running on rechargeables. 

Should I get the protected or unprotected cells?


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Jan 21, 2006)

With users reporting that it draws less than 0.9 amp, the G90 would be a better choice for use with two R123 cells, for two reasons: the lamp is more likely to light with a single click, and voltage will remain higher (and hence you'll get more of the rated brightness). Plus, of course, the G90 is much brighter to begin with.

Current draw will be just 1.1 to 1.3C. At this modest level, there's no need to us unprotected cells, and no advantage. Don't do it.


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## a99raptors (Jan 21, 2006)

Thanks. But why is unprotected cells recommended for incandescents?


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Jan 21, 2006)

a99raptors said:


> Thanks. But why is unprotected cells recommended for incandescents?


If you try to light a high-current lamp with small-capacity cells, the cells must be unprotected. If they're protected, the protection circuit will shut off the cell. High current ususally refers to a discharge rate of about 1.5C (1.5 times the cell's rated capacity) or higher. With a G90 and two protected R123 cells, you're looking at about 1.1C, a rate that is within the reach of a protected R123A.


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## a99raptors (Jan 21, 2006)

Thanks. And by the way, the G90 I am referring to is the 105 lumen one (available on Lighthound), not the High Pressure one. Lighthound has recommended the use of unprotected cells. Is there any real disadvantage to using those?


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Jan 21, 2006)

a99raptors said:


> Is there any real disadvantage to using those?


_*Ka-BOOM! :wave:*_


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## a99raptors (Jan 21, 2006)

really? That comes with over-charging or over-discharging it? Sorry for being such a moron with things like these.

EDIT:

OK. What I can gather so far is that unprotected cells go Ka Boom !!! when you over-discharge them. I think I can get around that because the G90 would not light when the voltage is too low, plus I plan to recharge it everyday. I would not want the protected versions because I might have to double or triple click it, which would be very inconvenient with some situations.


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Jan 21, 2006)

Digilight and G&P sell rechargeable 2x123A bodies that use a pair of unprotected R123A cells with the G90 lamp (HP for Digilight; I'm not sure which G90 G&P uses). But there's protection circuitry built in to the body.

Be wary of those unprotected cells. Every so often, I'll stick a flashlight in my pocket while it's still turned on. Once in the pocket, it's easy to forget about. (Okay, here come the Ka-BOOM castration jokes. )


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## lexina (Jan 21, 2006)

a99raptors said:


> I would not want the protected versions because I might have to double or triple click it, which would be very inconvenient with some situations.


 
I use the G90 with 2 protected C123s and never had to double-click.


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## switchoff (Jan 21, 2006)

Lexina, are you using that set-up in a SF 6P?


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## Bryan (Jan 21, 2006)

You should not have to double click with the P90 either.


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## mdocod (Jan 22, 2006)

most of the protected r123s are good for 2C, so around 1.2 amps... so as long as the lamp you are using isn't pushing the limit on 1.2 amps, you should be ok..


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## lexina (Jan 22, 2006)

switchoff said:


> Lexina, are you using that set-up in a SF 6P?


 
Yes. Get about 35mins before protection kicks in.


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## a99raptors (Jan 22, 2006)

So I gather the consensus is to go for protected cells? Anybody out there using unprotected? How is it?


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## bwaites (Jan 22, 2006)

I'm using unprotected cells in a Z2 with P91.

I don't let it even start to dim, I just swap out the cells once a week, for newly charged ones. This is the Z2 that sits with my Ruger .40 for protection duty.

Bill


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## a99raptors (Jan 22, 2006)

Does anyone know the real advantage of a P90 over a G90? Or the other way around?


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## rikvee (Jan 22, 2006)

Because so many of us here have too many lights, it can be hard to assess durability/reliability.
The G&P G90 looks very similar in build to the Surefire, it shares springs (designed to lessen the impact of weapon recoil), permanent focus and an "orange peel" reflector.
Notice one of the criticisms of Streamlight Strion and TL-3 lights is that the gobe falls out, that ain't gonna happen here, but you're paying for it!
I like the slightly whiter beam and the rounder hot-spot that the G&P offers, it is my favorite globe, it took lots of dollars for me to discover that for myself....


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## Lunarmodule (Jan 22, 2006)

I have a question. I believe it was Paul in Maryland who posted on an earlier thread about the G&P G90 bulb, that there are two very different versions of the bulb although they share the same name, the regular one available at lighthound and another one rated at 175 (?? IIRC) lumens called the high pressure variant (from Emillion??? or where). Could someone please clarify and detail this issue for me?

I've been comparing P61, P90, P91 bulbs a great deal mostly for use with rechargeables and have not tried the G&P product yet. I am VERY interested in this "high pressure" high rated lamp assembly. Where specifically is it available and how do I distinguish it from its "brother" with the same name?

I went to the Emillion site and IIRC the G90 bulb there dosent look like this 175 lumen high pressure version, so I'm a tad confused, can anyone help out?

In return I can offer this bit of advice on unprotected vs protected. The primary advantages of unprotected are greater cell capacity in mah and therefore more runtime and significantly less cost. Downside is they require strict vigilance on avoiding excessive discharge or the batteries become paperweights immediately. Also, on the kaboom issue, I have deliberately overdischarged some unprotected 17670 cells in series driving a 3.3 Amp load to destruction, i.e. 0 volts. Twice actually and all that happened is the incan light just faded to dim, much dimmer, and nothing. Checked the batteries and the cells were just barely warm to the touch. No kaboom. 

Also, I'f toasted a few R123s in double cell lights unprotected from excessive discharge. Not a single mishap, no kaboom, no high cell temps, nothing scary at all. Just cells that totally refused to take any charge voltage at all after the deep plunge. Absolutely NOT condoning the practice, but I can tell you from my experiences that although the safety recommendations about LiIons are all valid, I think the explosion risk paranoia is an undeserved bad rap for rechargeables. I believe its a VERY real danger while charging, however, as incorrect voltage/current could easily cause all hell to break loose because the act of charging is "forcing" the chemistry "backwards" into a state of unequal potential that has natural resistance to being that way.

With protected cells, you can rest easy and run the light completely without concern because the circuit shuts the flow of current off before any damaging discharge occurs from low voltage or a fault like a short. The tradeoff is more expense, the royal PITA of multiple clicks with high current lamps (primarily incans) to start a light, shorter runtime due to less capacity in mah, and my personal pet peeve, the circuit latching OFF on discharge when there's still some usable capacity left in the cell(s). If it was a life and death situation, you could use an unprotected cell even totally discharged in very short bursts and (damgingly) run it very dim for QUITE a long time before it finally gives up the ghost. I would personally like to be able to sacrifice a battery's life to save my own by providing some light versus the protected where it shuts off at the first instant of voltage drop below the setpoint and STAYS OFF til you put the cells in a charger to reset the circuit. ARRRRRGH!!! I HATE that, although some people love the idiot proof operator requirements.

To each their own. Unprotected cells are great in single cell lights and "intelligent" lights like the HDS EDC or any custom using the Wiz2 converter, lights that have a low voltage shutoff or some indicator to let you know the game's over. Also good for high current short duration/duty cycle applications. Multiple unprotected in series is supposed to be frowned upon, but I have dozens of hours of operation without a single negative incident. The ONLY bad happenings resulted from either intentional or unavoidable deep discharge which resulted in an instant catalytic conversion into paperweights 

OTOH, lately I've grown fond of protected cells, particularly some incans which draw a LOT of current and can hit that big discharge dropoff faster than you can respond sometimes. Its kinda nice to just let them safley blink off. But on occasion and at first I was swearing like a first class Merchant Marine when that happened.


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## rikvee (Jan 22, 2006)

thank you Lunarmodule! The G&P G90's I got from Lighthound do indeed have 'High Pressure" written on them, perhaps that is why I like them...
Lighthound's listing calls them 105 lumen though, perhaps typical for the confusion around this globe.
TradeDigit's eBay listing for a similar item mentions 175 lumen, I guess I better give them a try soon....


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## petery83 (Jan 22, 2006)

If the G&P G90 Bulb + DSD R123 800 mAh kit from LightHound includes the HP G90, it would be perfect for my G2 as far as I can tell (would a glass lens be necessary for the 175-lumen version of the G90?). Has anyone other than rikvee gotten the HP G90 from LightHound?


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## a99raptors (Jan 22, 2006)

Really? That's great! Cause I just ordered the G90 and 2 protected cells from Lighthound. To try to solve this dilemma of running protected and unprotected cells, I just asked him to try it out and send me the one that works! 

PS, 175 lumens? YEAAAAHOOOOOO!

Methinks another email to Lighthound is in order to confirm this.

EDIT:

Petery: There was a thread somewhere where someone melted the Lexan lens on the G2 2 minutes after using a lamp like that. Recommend you get the pyrex or the UCL lens (Lighthound sells them by the way).


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## a99raptors (Jan 22, 2006)

petery83 said:


> If the G&P G90 Bulb + DSD R123 800 mAh kit from LightHound includes the HP G90, it would be perfect for my G2 as far as I can tell (would a glass lens be necessary for the 175-lumen version of the G90?). Has anyone other than rikvee gotten the HP G90 from LightHound?


 
OK. Lighthound just replied. True that the G90 they sell have the HP markings on the side, but he doesn't think they are the 175 lumen version. Trying to get them now.


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## switchoff (Jan 22, 2006)

Thanks for the update 99, I was just about to ask lighthound myself.


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## Tremendo (Jan 22, 2006)

Would the G&P G90 work well with 2 x CR123, non-rechargables?


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## petery83 (Jan 23, 2006)

Thanks a99raptors!

It's great that LightHound has the UCL Lens as well, since I would prefer getting everything in one place


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## a99raptors (Jan 23, 2006)

Another update:

Lighthound has graciously tested the batteries on the G90 per my request, and apparently, the protected cells did not light up the G90 well, so he has changed my order to unprotected ones and refunded me the difference.

Thanks Lighthound!

So the general rule is unprotected = incandescent, but risky (but not by much)
Protected = LED. For anyone interested in rechargeables, I recommend reading Lighthound's FAQ on the subject. Very informative, and that's how I started.

Tremendo:
The answer to your question is no. The G90 bulb is very similar to the Surefire P90, both require 9 Volts to run. Rechargeable cells output 3.6 to 4.2 Volts each, which means they can be sometimes used. But 2 regular CR123s only output 6 Volts in total, so it cannot power up a 9V bulb.


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## Bryan (Jan 23, 2006)

lexina said:


> I use the G90 with 2 protected C123s and never had to double-click.


 
Which brand of batteries are using with this setup?


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Jan 23, 2006)

I suspect that the HP G90 draws less current than Lighthound's original G90. That would explain why the HP can be run on two protected cells. On the other hand, I'm pretty sure that both Digilight and G&P use unprotected cells in the battery stick that they provide with their rechargeable 2x123A G90, relying on circuitry in the body or head to protect the cells.

What we need is someone to buy one of each, test them with protected R123 cells, and settle the matter.


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## lexina (Jan 23, 2006)

Bryan said:


> Which brand of batteries are using with this setup?


 
I believe the conflicting reports on whether protected cells would work on the G90 depends on the cells rather than anything else.

I have run the G90 on 2 protected LiIons without having to double-click in any of the configurations as follows:-

-2 X protected 16340s from Dae (qualitychinagoods.com) in a 6P

- 2 X protected 17500s from Aw in a 6P + A19 extender

- 2 X protected 17670s from Aw in a 4-cell G&P X12 tube with 6P head.

2 of my G90s have the words "High Pressure" on the label while another doesn't. I am not sure if the words mean anything in my case because they all cost the same. However the HP ones seem to have a bigger hotspot. Didn't have to double-click on either HP or non-HP lamps. My lamps came from someone who bought them in HK.

Hope the above helps.


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## rikvee (Jan 26, 2006)

rikvee said:


> thank you Lunarmodule! The G&P G90's I got from Lighthound do indeed have 'High Pressure" written on them, perhaps that is why I like them...
> Lighthound's listing calls them 105 lumen though, perhaps typical for the confusion around this globe.
> TradeDigit's eBay listing for a similar item mentions 175 lumen, I guess I better give them a try soon....



Well guess what, I ordered 2 "175 Lumen" G90's from TadeDigit, they arrived today, and they are _identical_ to the 105 Lumen globes I got from Lighthound.com, in every aspect, incl. the words "High Pressure".

Brightness is similar to the 120 Lumen P61, a little whiter and brighter than the 105 Lumen P90, but the _P91 is so much brighter_ again, I don't think the 175 Lumen claim holds up!
All-in-all a good globe, glad to have it (I certainly have enough spares by now  ), and at $12.99 you get a P90-like light for 6 bucks less....

The name of this thread may remain unanswered for a while though, who'll be the first to give these a 20+ hour workout, on unprotected R123's as well, just to be complete....


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## mdocod (Jan 28, 2006)

i think i'm even more confused about whether I got the true HP version of the G90 or not now... heh..... i don't have anything similar to compare to.... it's a pretty decently bright light... i'm crossing my fingers- maybe surefire will come out with a high-pressure version of their P91, something like 250 or 300 lumen, lol...


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## rikvee (Jan 30, 2006)

The best value G&P G90 is on Emilion's site, again the same item as I bought from TradeDigit and Lighthound (I now have 6 of these globes :huh: ).
The Pathfinder P90 that Emilion sells is excellent, a wider flood, and indeedy just as bright!


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Jan 30, 2006)

rikvee said:


> The best value G&P G90 is on Emilion's site, again the same item as I bought from TradeDigit and Lighthound (I now have 6 of these globes :huh: ).


I'm confused. Emilion states that it's as bright as a P90--but not brighter. Aren't at least some of your G90s noticeably brighter? If not, what's all the G90 fuss about?

The Pathfinder P90 that Emilion sells is excellent, a wider flood, and indeedy just as bright![/QUOTE]Just as bright as...the brightest G90? How wide is the beam at 10 feet? (Wolf Eyes/Pila is 2 feet wide at 10 feet.)


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## rikvee (Jan 30, 2006)

:wave: Hi Paul!
among the 6 G90's, one has serious artifacts in its beam, and one is a tiny bit brighter.
They _all_ are a little _whiter_ than the Surefire P90 (105 Lumen), and to my eye a lot more similar in brightness to the 120 Lumen P61 than the 200 Lumen P91.
My simple test is comparing reflection from the ceiling, then swapping lamp assemblies, to make sure the difference is not caused by the switch, body or batteries.
And yup, the Pathfinder P90 is just as bright as the average G90, with a very smooth transition from centre to spill, not much of a "spot" anymore.


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## Colonial Marine (Jan 31, 2006)

I am in the very early stages of field testing on the 6p torch with a G90 bulb and unprotected 800mAh cheapie batteries. I have run through 2 charging cycles. I have 3 sets of 2x123 rechargables which I am rotating. I am getting 2 nightshifts of intermittent use per set. The brightness throw and spot size far exceed the non-rechargeable 6v bulb.

So far so good.


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## a99raptors (Jan 31, 2006)

Thanks for all the input! I will be getting a G90 and 2 unprotected 123s soon, and I hope to put those into a G2 with a UCL lens. Will keep updated.


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## mdocod (Feb 1, 2006)

> Tremendo:
> The answer to your question is no. The G90 bulb is very similar to the Surefire P90, both require 9 Volts to run. Rechargeable cells output 3.6 to 4.2 Volts each, which means they can be sometimes used. But 2 regular CR123s only output 6 Volts in total, so it cannot power up a 9V bulb.



just to clarify- the lamp will light up, it will just not be as bright as it could be when driven properly... stick to "6V" lamps for use with 2 lithium primaries for optimal output.


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## Lunarmodule (Feb 1, 2006)

mdocod said:


> just to clarify- the lamp will light up, it will just not be as bright as it could be when driven properly... stick to "6V" lamps for use with 2 lithium primaries for optimal output.



To add further, 

In the case of the 9V lamps used in conjunction with 2x R123 3.7V cells, like the SF P90 or G90, there is only a slightly decreased amount of brightness compared to 100% fresh primaries, but after a few minutes of runtime the rechargeables are noticeably more consistent, with almost no dimming for a large amount of the run. At 50% charge for each type, the rechargeables will be brighter and whiter than primaries especially after a minute or two. Long and short, primaries run longer but dim constantly over their life. Rechargeables have less runtime but more consistent brightness during their discharge. I personally use 2X R123 with P90s and P91s with excellent results. Only against totally fresh primaries will you see any less brightness. So, in essence, for my purposes the replenishable 2x R123 is more "optimal" than 3x CR123 primaries in a 3-cell light. 

FWIW, 2x R123 for a 9V lamp (designed for 3x CR123) is a better match (in terms of less brightness reduction) than 1x 17670 (Pila 168S) for a 6V lamp (designed for 2x CR123). The latter does work, quite well, as I often use P60 and P61 in a 2-cell light with 1 Pila 168S (17670), but the 2x R123 is more closely matched to the designed spec output for 9v lamps.

I just read this post and really hope it hasnt muddied the waters any, it seems a bit confusing but was intended to shed some light (ARRRRGH pun intended)


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## Raoul_Duke (Feb 1, 2006)

Lunarmodule, I take it that you are running non protected rechargables.

I have only seen a couple of people saying that they run 9v lamps Protected without double clicking.

Some of the cells I have seen dont seem to be available anymore.

And the others i have heard about, I tried and they didn't work for me, without a double tap.

Sureley somebody could, or should manufacture a protected cell that allows a large surge at the begining, for a short time, if possible.
It not like they woulden't sell out instantly here alone.

This would only work if the lamps didn't draw to much current, I guess.
But If some protected cells can manage it, why cant others?


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## a99raptors (Feb 1, 2006)

mdocod:
Thanks for the clarification!

Lunarmodule: 
Thanks for the input! And its very informative. One question: Are you using the protected or unprotected cells for your 123s and 17670s?

Can a 17670 light up an E series bulb like in an E2D and how well does that run? Can it also run the L2? Be great to have rechargeables all the way. Protected or unprotected?


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## Raoul_Duke (Feb 1, 2006)

There are a few mods for the E2e and a few more for the E2D but they all have thermal issues so I havent persued them further.

There is this mod for an E2e but this Is also supposed to be To hot.
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/67167

Bummer I know, I'd like a rechargable E2D, that didn't get Too hot.


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## Lunarmodule (Feb 1, 2006)

Raoul_Duke,

My apologies for my omission, I should have specified that I use unprotected rechargeable R123s almost always for the 9V applications, the 800mAh variety. I have found them extremely reliable and hassle free for my use, only requiring that I recharge/replace at the first sign of significant dimming. Runtime on unprotected is notably longer as well compared to the protected cells, especially the 600mAh. However, using unprotected cells requires the light be operated by a knowledgeable individual and NOT left unattended. 

The reason some protected cells can work without "clicking" and some cant all revolve around the threshold settings of the overcurrent protection circuit. Pilas for example have a higher threshold, allow more current to flow before engaging and thus work without clicks whereas blue cells will have you doing the power switch finger dance tap thing. The center of this issue is the HUGE current demand of a cold tungsten filament. The overcurrent circuit is designed to prevent too much current from coming out of the cell due to excessive load or a direct short. For most incan bulbs, the cold filament starting current is so high it ALMOST looks like a dead short to the circuit in the cell. Its a bit of a lottery effect amongst protected cells depending on the setting of the tiny PCB on the cell itself, and it varies by manufacturer and tolerance. The trick is to get enough power out of the cell to start the lamp and quickly reduce its demand for current. Thats what "clicking" does, preheats the filament so that it needs only a few amps instead of dozens for those few milliseconds after hitting the switch. The more powerful the lamp obviously the closer to the edge of what the little PCBs will allow before deciding its the end of the world! The solution to the problem is not a modification to the cell PCB, its the inclusion of a regulation circuit for the lamp itself that will allow a gradual ramping of starting current over time, i.e. soft start. AndrewWynn and wquiles have done pioneering work in this area right here on CPF and post in homemade/modified often. Without a soft start circuit, from the cells point of view a cold filament looks a heck of a lot like a dead short. 



a99raptors,

I generally use unprotected 800mAh R123 cells for the 9V lamps and Pila brand 168S cells for 6V applications, although I have plenty of unprotected and protected blue 17670s. For my uses, the Pila 168S works without clicking on both P60 and P61 with excellent brightness, so its my preference. If you can run protected without the gimmicky clicking, why not? Its much easier and hassle free. However, generic 17670s are a superior value, unprotected especially but discharge them even ONCE too far and they are HISTORY. Ask me how I know, or where I got the cool paperweights I use on my desk. They are these neat looking blue cylinders with no labeling at all!


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## mdocod (Feb 2, 2006)

a99raptors said:


> mdocod:
> Thanks for the clarification!
> 
> Lunarmodule:
> ...



I am using "generic blue" Protected 17670s to drive my G90. The current limit of these cells is about 2.4 amps, the G90 only pulls about 1 amp, so it works without a hitch.

As far as what you can light up with what cells- is purely based on the current limitations set by the protection circuit compared to the current demands of the bulb you are driving. A protected 17670 will run MN03 lamp in the E2D at a reduced brightness, since it is designed for use with 2 primaries (6V total), the single 3.7V 17670 will not run it as bright or white. Whether or not the cell would fit- probably, but maybe someone else can clarify, some bodies are too narrow to accept some cells.


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## a99raptors (Feb 7, 2006)

Just got my G90 and works really well with two unprotected R123s. The lumen output can really challenge that of the P61 on two primaries.


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## BlackBlade (Jun 5, 2006)

Lunarmodule said:


> Runtime on unprotected is notably longer as well compared to the protected cells, especially the 600mAh.



How long does the SureFire P91 run on two unprotected R123 800 mAh batteries before ist starts to dim?

*Edit:* I've answered the question myself by reading this post.


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## nzgunnie (Jun 12, 2006)

I judt got 2 protected 123s from AW.

I can run my P90 with these no problem, no double clicking.

I can even run an MN15 with no double clicking.

I can't run the G90 (which says High pressure, although I'm pretty sure it's 105l). It needs double clicking. (I think this one came from tradedigit, off ebay from Hong Kong anyway)

I checked the current draws, 1.12 for the P90, 1.33 for the G90. Not much difference but it must be just enough.


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## UWAK (Jun 12, 2006)

bwaites said:


> I'm using unprotected cells in a Z2 with P91.
> Bill



Is it true you use 2 unprot cells in a Z2 with P91 and not the P90? How about runtime and mAH in you batt? Thx.

Frids


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## Gene (Jun 12, 2006)

I just noticed this thread and I know this is slightly off-topic but I have no experience with these G&P LAs even though they have been around for several months now. I've always used SF's LAs as I've had good luck with them for years. I just recently had a weird problem happen.

I believe it was KevinL who came up with the idea of using P90 and P91 LA's with 2XR123's in 6V SF light bodies a long while back. I tried it with the P91 and P90 SF LA's with the P90 using Jon's, (J.S. Burley's), protected 4.2V R123's being my favorite as the light produced and runtime was great using this combo. It also didn't have the double clicking problem or no light up problem as with the PROTECTED cells using the P91 but worked great with the UNPROTECTED R123's. It made for the smallest, (at the time), 9V light going using an E2 body, E2C adapter and first series E1 tailcap, ( shortest E series tailcap ever and converted to a clicky), and 6P head. Super tiny package with some serious light! I felt safer with the protected cells so chose to use them exclusively.

I have used this combo for about a year now with no problems and about a month ago, my J.S Burley 4.2V protected R123's won't run this combo anymore. If I run the light more than about 3 minutes, one of the cells protection circuits will kick in and the light goes dead. I've tried it several times now and when I put the cells on an voltmeter, one cell will read 0 and other is fine, (right around 4V). The dead cells however always charge right back up to 4.2V.

I have a good stash of the now unobtainable J.S Burley 4.2V R123's and no matter what cells I use, this now happens. I changed over to AW's UNPROTECTED R123's and the problem went away. I get around 45 minutes runtime of steady light until the LA starts to dim and YES, I recharge them.

I don't know what the cause is of the Burley R123's to kick in on their protection circuit and I don't really care as I use them now on my single R123 celled lights and really, Jon warned early on that they should be used on single celled lights exclusively.

The UNPROTECTED R123's are working fabulous and I've gone through at least 10 cycles so far and used them hard with no problems.


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