# The CR2 Ion Flashlight - Part Three



## Endeavour (Oct 20, 2005)

Hey Folks,

Now we move on to thread three on the topic of the CR2 Ion flashlight project, included in this post are new pictures, and the latest information, as well as a consolidation of all that has happened in the previous two threads.

The CR2 Ion flashlight is a small, high-powered torch, that powers a one watt Cree Xlamp from a single CR2 lithium primary cell (not compatible with rechargeable cells). It’s equipped with a dual-mode constant current convertor, providing fully regulated light levels in both the high and low modes.

A quick guide on the specs of the light:
CR2 Cell Based 
Type III Hardcoat Anodizing 
Chemkote Interior for corrosion protection
Fully Sealed with O-Rings & Custom-made lens gaskets 
Ultra Clear Lens (UCL) for 99% Light Transmittance 
Cree Xlamp LED 
Fully Regulated 2-stage Convertor

Coming in at 2.15”(54.7mm) by 0.735”(18.7mm) small when off (even shorter when fully activated), the flashlight is very suitable for every day carry and fits well on a key chain, and comfortably in the pocket. The beam is a smooth flood that is useful for most situations, be it searching your glove compartment, or working under the car hood, or finding the loo at night.

The reflector is highly polished aluminum, treated such that its luster is maintained during its use. The Ion is completely sealed from the elements – it’s no dive light, but it will function in wet environments without a hitch. The UCL allows for 99% of the light to pass through unhindered out the front end of the light, meaning, more photons make it out into the beam rather than getting reflected back into the flashlight as it would if it didn’t have the anti-reflective coating on both sides of the glass. 

A number of versions of the CR2 Ion have been made, in addition to those originally conceived earlier on in the project:

Hardcoat Anodized Black or Natural
Aluminum Bronze
Titanium
Red & Green Hardcoat

75 Aluminum Bronze lights will be made at a price of $175, 45 Titanium versions at $290, and 40 of each of the red, green, and blue anodized ones at $165. In addition to these, a few special versions will be available for purchase in the future, pictures of which will be forthcoming when they arrive here. The standard black and natural Hard Anodizing will be available for $145 as well.

For those of you unfamiliar with aluminum bronze, it’s an alloy of bronze and aluminum that is very strong and corrosion resistant. It’s harder to machine than your typical brass or aluminum metals by themselves, but is significantly more durable. The appearance of the metal, from what I’ve seen, is really quite nice, superior to the qualities of either component metals.

Earlier on, preorders for the CR2 Ion were taken, offered at $125 shipped within the USA, $130 Internationally, and was capped off at 50 units, black and natural colorations only. All of these spaces have been filled, but a website is forthcoming for easy ordering once the run of parts is complete, so if you didn’t make it onto the list, worry not, there are opportunities to be had yet in the near future.

Some pictures of the current working prototype:
















[size=-2]High Mode[/size]





[size=-2]Low Mode[/size]

Stay tuned to this thread for continued news and updates – and drop me a line either here or via private message if you've got any questions.

Take care folks! 

-Enrique


----------



## hotbeam (Oct 20, 2005)

Hey, that's mine!


----------



## HgRyu (Oct 20, 2005)

It seems like too dim for me in low mode . :shrug: 

Anyway, :goodjob:


----------



## Endeavour (Oct 20, 2005)

Howard: :nana: 

HgRyu: It's not a good idea to make assumptions on brightness when the photos are backlit with multiple watts of flouresecent and LED lighting to get the details of the parts to show, as well as the background flourescent fixtures in ambient light as well. The real way to tell the brightness would be to have one in person to test, or second best some beamshots (unfortunately I can't take those myself). In any case, gauging the brightness of a light while it's under strong lighting doesn't really form an accurate picture of how it functions in the dark.

I'll be adding more information to the first post tomorrow, since I already realized I missed a few things, but need to catch up on some sleep first. 

-Enrique


----------



## gregw (Oct 20, 2005)

Looks great Enrique... :goodjob: 

BTW, it looks like the reflector in there isn't coated with a reflective layer... I'm guessing that this is a prototype and that the final product will be highly reflective and shining.. right?


----------



## HgRyu (Oct 20, 2005)

Thanks for your kind comments, Enrique  

But I said that "dim for me" not for all folks


----------



## flashlight (Oct 20, 2005)

Can I put my name down for one Aluminium Bronze & one Titanium (sight unseen but I'm sure they'll look terrific. ) please?

As well as for that blue one too (don't really fancy red nor green) if you ever decide to let it go.


----------



## JohnnyDeep (Oct 20, 2005)

Would like to put my name down for one Aluminum Bronze.
Jan L.


----------



## cue003 (Oct 20, 2005)

Looking better with every picture. Like the engraving on it as well. Keep up the work. Looking forward to receiving it and picking up some of the others that will be available. I am anxious to see pictures of the Aluminum Bronze version.

We have seen the green, red and now blue version and the HA3 version... just need to see the Alum Bronze and the Ti.

Curtis


----------



## NewBie (Oct 20, 2005)

Very impressive Endeavor, good job.


----------



## shiftd (Oct 20, 2005)

hey hottie, that is MY Blue 

looks great ende


----------



## Endeavour (Oct 20, 2005)

Hey Folks,

GregW: Well, it looks pretty reflective to me here in person, and in the second picture posted as well, but maybe it's difficult to tell? :shrug: Originally the centerpiece was going to be plated in nickel, but after seeing some old reflectors done that way, and their tarnishing to a dull yellow over time of being exposed to the air, I decided against that. Polished aluminum is significantly more reflective than nickel, but my initial worry was of it oxidizing, too. However, given that the reflector is sealed from the elements by gaskets and O-Rings, and treated to resist oxidization, I decided to go with the more reflective metal. I'm plenty happy with the results and this comes after carrying the light for the better part of a week and using it on a nightly basis, but then again, I'm biased.  In any case, I like it, it fits my design requirements, and that's how it's staying. 

HgRyu: Well, anything looks dim when you've got 30 watts of flourescent light 8 inches away from an object, and 9 watts of LEDs surrounding it on all sides, but I digress.

Flashlight: You and everyone else, including their brother, sister, mother & father have been asking for me to open up a list for those. I'll make a decision on that in the coming days since this is such a popular request - until then, posting or PMing interest won't have any effect on your standing 'in line'. (Trying to avoid disgruntled members who might feel slighted by no 'official' announcement of anything and then missed out) 

Thanks for the kind words, cue & Newbie. 

I'll be editing the main post later today with points I forgot to include last night once I have a chance to update anything and everything in one single swoop.

Bringing back a topic from thread two, there seems to be significant interest in batteries, so I'll be picking some up for you all. Someone asked about the brand - I've been using the DPower ones as seen in the photos here without any problem. I was looking at using Duracells, but after being tossed around from the Duracell corp over to Gillette (who owns Duracell), and being told that X distributor would be doing me a favor to even consider selling me the quantity of batteries I was looking for, I dropped the idea of getting batteries domestically. (I did contact Energizer, and to their credit they were friendly and helpful, as opposed to Duracell, but their distributor was unresponsive) 

I think that about covers it. 

-Enrique


----------



## PaulW (Oct 20, 2005)

HgRyu said:


> It seems like too dim for me in low mode . :shrug:
> 
> Anyway, :goodjob:


Enrique,

This is a sweet looking light. But I have to go along with HgRyu. In a previous thread, a runtime of about 25 hours on low mode was stated. To me also, that would have to be pretty dim.

I think I would like to have one of these lights regardless of the low-mode intensity. But something a little brighter—that results in a run time of 5 to 10 hours—would be my preference.

Paul


----------



## shiftd (Oct 20, 2005)

just give me any battery that works!!!!! (and cheap too )
i dun think high quality batt will me a big difference here, prolly a couple more min or two, and i dun really care as long as my light is on when i want it and no leakage at all 

Anyway, seeing the pic again, and seeing the light compared to ur car remote ende, darn, that thing IS small (I cannot see the quarter in that pic  ). It makes my day. Now, where is MINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Doc (Oct 20, 2005)

Enrique your the Doctor! Well done! Can't wait for this little Jem. Doc.


----------



## jtice (Oct 20, 2005)

Your not gonna be able to tell what the brightness is like from the photos or runtimes guys.
There are too many varialbes to it.
This is also a flood beam, so telling you a lux reading wouldnt to much good either.

I also think the 25 is a projected #
and even so, that sounds about right, or low.
Whats the average mAh of a CR2?

and remember, low mode is to be used with night adapted eyes, 
like a trip to the bathroom at night, it really doesnt take much light then.

~John


----------



## Cadster (Oct 20, 2005)

Enrique,
Can you tell us what protective coating you are using on the polished aluminum reflector (assuming it is not a proprietary process)?
Of course, I want one of these babies regardless...


----------



## Kiessling (Oct 20, 2005)

Looking GOOD ! 
Will the reflector of the aluminium bronze lights be in a different color?
And how heavy is aluminium bronze?
thanx and good work :thumbsup: :wave:
bernie


----------



## greenLED (Oct 20, 2005)

Nice, really, really nice, Enrique!
Awesome job.


----------



## Archangel (Oct 20, 2005)

(smirk) Well i wouldn't go *that* far. Some of us are rather familiar with pocket flood-ish lights.




jtice said:


> This is also a flood beam, so telling you a lux reading wouldn't do much good either.


----------



## Endeavour (Oct 20, 2005)

Kiessling,

The center parts and modules are all made from aluminum across the board, and that's the heaviest part. I know the thermal properties of aluminum are pretty decent, exceeded by copper, and silver, but Aluminum is a nicer material to work with due to weight and cost savings.

As for the weight of aluminum bronze, I expect it to be a bit heavier than the aluminum versions, but the difference won't be too extreme, since the heaviest part is still just aluminum. I got a few lights made in magnesium, and the weight difference between those and aluminum are noticable, but pretty marginal, I'd expect titanium to be slightly heavier, and aluminum bronze to be a little bit more than that. If you'd like, I'll see about getting some gram measurements for you when they're done, if you're interested. 

GreenLED: Thanks. 

-Enrique


----------



## Kiessling (Oct 20, 2005)

If it is between brass and al I am all ears about this aluminium bronze ...  
Great project! Must feel good to bring it to fruition finally ... :thumbsup:
bernie


----------



## bmstrong (Oct 20, 2005)

PP ready!


----------



## Cadster (Oct 20, 2005)

Enrique,
When you say the reflector is "treated to resist oxidization", is the polishing itself considered the treatment, or is there additional processing?
Thanks, Mike


----------



## LowWorm (Oct 20, 2005)

Stunning! Can't wait to see the Aluminum Bronze and get on the official list for that one.


----------



## HarryN (Oct 20, 2005)

Hi Enrique

I have had the exact same experience with Duracell - spent an entire day trying to buy from them.

I had the exact opposite experience with Ray O Vac, which makes a nice CR2 cell, and offered to me a reasonable price, for a reasonable qty of cells. If you are interested, perhaps we can spit an order. If interested, send me a PM.

HarryN


----------



## mut (Oct 20, 2005)

Enrique, that looks awsome. Looks like the hard work and time is paying off.
I will be in line for one after you get the first ones out.

mut


----------



## Uriah (Oct 20, 2005)

Enrique,
Your hard work is paying off that light looks AWESOME.I cant wait for your website to be up and taking orders.
Thanks Scott


----------



## xochi (Oct 20, 2005)

I hope the reflector is highly polished since , if nothing else, it adds a lot of cosmetic appeal to the light. Will it be possible to access the reflector without the LED in it for some end user power polishing?


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 20, 2005)

Since aluminum will oxidize almost immediately (to more or lesser degree depending on the alloy) I'd say that the treatment doesn't consist of polishing it, and that polishing the reflector yourself isn't a good idea. :thinking: :shrug:


----------



## jdriller (Oct 20, 2005)

This is another tiny marvel!


----------



## Endeavour (Oct 20, 2005)

Cadster: No, it's not just polished.

xochi: If it wasn't polished well, you wouldn't be able to see much, if any phosphor reflecting in the second picture. As for cosmetic appeal, well, function takes precedence over cosmetics, if a bead blasted reflector provided a better beam I'd do that even if it didn't look as nice. In any case, it's polished just fine, and the beam is great, in my opinion - as noted earlier, it meets the criteria I designed it to, and I suppose time will tell whether or not people share my beliefes in its design and performance. :shrug: I do feel it's very premature for anyone to be passing judgment on the performance of something no one aside from myself and personal friends have actually seen in action, though.

Take care folks. 

-Enrique


----------



## diggdug13 (Oct 21, 2005)

Endeavour said:


> :shrug: I do feel it's very premature for anyone to be passing judgment on the performance of something no one aside from myself and personal friends have actually seen in action, though.
> 
> Take care folks.
> 
> -Enrique


 
Enrique,

STOP BEING SOOOO GREEDY.. send "ME" one and I'll be happy to pass judgement on one for you (of course you wouldn't get it back  ) I'm not afraid to have an opinion and share it (according to my wife). Soo come on and be nice SEND IT TO ME...:rock: 

Ya'll play nice, far too often we see people flaming lights that they have never seen, touched and in some cases have no intentions of purchasing. I've been following this thread from the begining and Enrique has stated from the begining that this is HIS light, HIS creation, for HIS purposes if you don't like what this man has done DON'T FOLLOW THIS THREAD and don't buy it. Just let him finish so those of use that want a flood light on our keychain can get it faster  .

Have a nice day and stay safe
Doug


----------



## Cadster (Oct 21, 2005)

Thanks Bart and Enrique for taking the time to respond.


----------



## xochi (Oct 21, 2005)

There is a graph at Cree.com that tracks relative intensity% to ma and , although the graph isn't too precisely marked it looks like at 50ma the xlamp puts out about 20% of its max intensity. 50ma is around 14% of the Ions 350 ma drive current. So apparently the xlamp is a little more efficient at lower currents. 

What's the point? Well, if the Xlamp puts out 50-60 + lumens at 350ma and 10-12ish at 50ma then the Ions low setting of 30 ma should be putting out around 5-7 lumens which means that we're looking at a low setting in the ballpark of a new arc AAA or a bit brighter. Having just upgraded my old arc with a nichia CS, I have found that the light is now my 'goto' light for 90% of my uses and I'm seriously considering selling my HDS EDC60xr. The Ions low setting should last around FIVE TIMES an arc AAA, so if the low setting of the Ion really turns out to be similar to an arc AAA I anticipate an EDC that should be phenomenally useful and extremely economical. I wouldn't be at all surprised if some of us find that we're only changing batteries in the Ion 1-3 times a year! In other words a twenty dollar supply of CR2's may reach the shelf life before they are used! We're looking at a feeding price of around 1/2 cent per day!

Certainly , my enthusiasm is evident and the real world has many other variables that may dampen things a bit but it really does look like this light will be an EDC that may earn itself a reputation near that of the humble but legendary ARC AAA.


----------



## diggdug13 (Oct 21, 2005)

xochi,
awsome post!! :rock: got me salivating for the light abit more than before. can't wait to get mine in my greedy little hands.:naughty: 

Doug


----------



## xochi (Oct 21, 2005)

Cool DD, and that was before I realized that I got my division backwards and had to change the 2 cents per day to around HALF A CENT per day!

For those of you who have suspected that I am a major Geek and have no life, here is proof! Having been inspired by Enrique's post and photos of the CR2 Ion, I made a model! Really only an aluminum tube that matches the the posted dimensions of the Ion but I now have a great idea just how small this light is. Now , for me it's a little big for keychain carry but so is everything else out there larger than a zinc air firefli or a photon . I bet most folks find it right about perfect on a keyring or around the neck on a lanyard or in a pocket (be prepared for the inevitable panic when its size allows it to 'hide' in a pocket and you think you've lost it). I've got to stop thinking about this little bugger before I drive myself wacky!


----------



## Endeavour (Oct 21, 2005)

Hey Doug, 

To a certain extent you are correct. Though people have sent money in preorder and others have expressed interest, that doesn't mean that this has become a community design. Earlier on in the project people were complaining about me not having driven the LED (which was to be a Luxeon at the time) at 500mA, and some people even dropped out because of it. :shrug: Having actually used this light, it gets very warm as is, and would be potentially dangerous, to itself in burning out the LED and the battery overheating, and to a person in getting first degree burns if it was accidentally left on and picked up a few minutes later. Damage to the flashlight, and burns, not to mention the lack of significant gains in light output, and far less runtime would have been very real problems that would have arisen had the light been designed 'by comittee' - as someone noted back then you'd end up with an elephant, and a pink one at that if that's done. The objective from the start has always been to make a usable tool that will outlive us, in the life of the LED, and hopefully maintain it's usefulness even in the face of new advances in lighting as time progresses. 

That's not to discourage people from asking questions or asking for clarification on certain aspects of things, though. It may be my design, and I certainly will be using it myself, but I don't expect anyone to throw their money at something without knowing what it is they're getting! However, on the opposite side of the coin, passing judgment on brightness levels and other such details that really need to be seen in person in order to be judged on properly is something that can't be told on the basis of a picture, for the reasons mentioned earlier. If the consensus by the folks receiving the lights for testing later this coming week is that low mode is too dim, I'll make some changes and boost the drive current accordingly.

-Enrique


----------



## flashlight (Oct 22, 2005)

Hey Enrique, a pink one sounds quite nice actually (must be the metrosexual in me talking  ) and I'm sure the ladies will like it. :laughing:


----------



## Frenchyled (Oct 22, 2005)

Nice prototype, Enrique :goodjob: 
I am waiting for one 

And I read "Titanium" or I dreamed ? :twothumbs


----------



## Billson (Oct 22, 2005)

Enrique,

Will you be making available all models (HAIII, aluminum bronze, titanium, etc.) at the same time or one at a time?


----------



## Endeavour (Oct 22, 2005)

Flashlight: :shakehead: 

Frenchy: You'll be receiving one soon, hopefully.  Titanium, Aluminum Bronze, Hardcoat colors, what more do you want, the magnesium ones and solid gold and silver versions?  

Billson, the ones you mentioned will be available all at once. Some of the special versions might be available a little bit afterwards.

-Enrique


----------



## Lightedge (Oct 22, 2005)

I don't suppose you have any waiting lists going.

If so, put me down for an aluminum bronze and a box of batteries.

Light looks great. Exactly what I've been looking for.


----------



## NewBie (Oct 22, 2005)

Endeavour said:


> Hey Doug,
> 
> To a certain extent you are correct. Though people have sent money in preorder and others have expressed interest, that doesn't mean that this has become a community design. Earlier on in the project people were complaining about me not having driven the LED (which was to be a Luxeon at the time) at 500mA, and some people even dropped out because of it. :shrug: Having actually used this light, it gets very warm as is, and would be potentially dangerous, to itself in burning out the LED and the battery overheating, and to a person in getting first degree burns if it was accidentally left on and picked up a few minutes later. Damage to the flashlight, and burns, not to mention the lack of significant gains in light output, and far less runtime would have been very real problems that would have arisen had the light been designed 'by comittee' - as someone noted back then you'd end up with an elephant, and a pink one at that if that's done. The objective from the start has always been to make a usable tool that will outlive us, in the life of the LED, and hopefully maintain it's usefulness even in the face of new advances in lighting as time progresses.
> 
> ...




It is good you decided to take the sane route, instead of going for hype, ignorance, and dangerous options.

It shows your wisdom.

Personally, a light that is designed such that it isn't dangerous, doesn't thrash the batteries, doesn't go "thermonuclear" on the user, as well as not making the LED *SCREAM* for mercy is a real asset.

So many folks are just looking for a quick "fix" or , but when a person is spending more than 40 dollars on a light, I don't feel one should ever have to modify the light, replace the LED, or any silly stuff like that. You go above 40 dollars for a light, and it should be something that is reliable by design. Any stupid moron can overdrive a Luxeon, slap in a cheap off the shelf reflector, and have a light. 

It is quite another thing to have a tailored custom reflector, an efficient circuit, decent runtime, regulated output, HA III coating, and all the other nice bells and whistles, in a light that is designed to last, which is why one pays extra dollars for.

Very wise decisions Endeavor.


----------



## Kiessling (Oct 22, 2005)

Second that. 
Very wise that you stayed on the sane road with this one.
bernie


----------



## diggdug13 (Oct 22, 2005)

I have to agree with Newbie on this one.. this light has been made with the love and care given like a child. 

doug


----------



## 83Venture (Oct 22, 2005)

This looks like a very nice little flood light and I am looking foward to receiving mine. Many of us like to carry a backup battery. Since one of the best battery holders is another light I wonder if anyone knows of a small single CR2 light that would cover the other side of the spectrum (Throw)? 

This would cover throw & flood uses and backup the battery and light. "Two is one, one is none". I don't know if throw is possible from a light this small but thought I would throw it out to the more knowledgeable members here. Enrique seems to be one of the experts on CR2 lights maybe he knows if this can be done in an Ion size package?


----------



## coyote (Oct 22, 2005)

ok, do i have this correct?

-the first group of 50 aluminum lights are already called for, though they will be available in the future.

-all the other versions have no waiting list.

so exactly what should i do to be able to order one of the 75 bronze aluminum one? should i check CPF every 5 minutes? beg and plead? send money now in hopes of a "mercy light" later? offer my first born?

honestly, i just missed being on the "first 50" list by a single space, even though i had been on the original list months prior to that... 

and i sure don't want to miss out again. 

help!!!!


----------



## moeman (Oct 22, 2005)

Enrique,
did you get my pm on moving and needing to have you send the light to another address?
thanks,
chris


----------



## Frenchyled (Oct 23, 2005)

Endeavour said:


> ....
> 
> Frenchy: You'll be receiving one soon, hopefully.  Titanium, Aluminum Bronze, Hardcoat colors, what more do you want, the magnesium ones and solid gold and silver versions?
> 
> ...



HEhe Enrique, sure I want ( I don't need them, like all flashlights I have in my collection ) all these versions ...but I could afford it only if I win the lottery...and only if I play ... :thanks:


----------



## Endeavour (Oct 23, 2005)

Hey Folks,

I finally received the O-Rings for the light and installed them - their fit is very nice and the threading action smooth and secure.  The prototype is now fully complete and working very well.

Newbie: I'm glad to hear you like what you see so far. 

83Venture: Small size and throw are generally two very exclusive features, due to the size of the optical system needed, as well as the higher drive currents and batteries required by them. Both more power to a given light source and a larger reflectors, and batteries that run for some reasonable amount at the higher loads are needed for a reasonable throw light.

I'm imagining an Aleph 1, Aleph 3, or HD45 if you're looking for throw. With the Alephs you could build them up with a 1xCR2 pack if you'd like, but a CR123 would be more ideal for the size.

Coyote: Your first born will suffice.  :lol: The idea has been to have a website setup for everyone to order their light off of once production is done, though a number of folks have been demanding to start queuing in advance. 

Moeman: Your PM, your post, and your e-mail.  I placed your new address with your order back when you sent the e-mail, sorry for the slow confirmation.

A brief status update: This coming week I'll be ordering all the production parts - lenses, board components, etc. as well as building up a few more prototypes to send out for review. The machining of all the parts will begin in short order as well, once I know the lead times of all the needed parts. We're getting closer and closer to fruition. 

-Enrique


----------



## Cadster (Oct 23, 2005)

"..a number of folks have been demanding to start queuing in advance."
Well I'm certainly in no position to demand anything, but if in fact an advance queue is started, I humbly request :bow: that I be placed on it for one itty-bitty Titanium. I have been searching for a pocketable flood light like yours for about 3 years now with limited success. I'm a latecomer to this thread and I'm already up to 2 cold showers per day .


----------



## NextLight (Oct 23, 2005)

I'm in for one, type TBD


----------



## coyote (Oct 23, 2005)

i hereby and officially request i be placed on the "queue" for a bronze aluminum version!!!!!


sincerely (and hopefully)
-coyote


----------



## Lightedge (Oct 23, 2005)

If you are taking requests, I want an aluminum bronze as well.


----------



## karlthev (Oct 23, 2005)

I want you to build me an aluminum bronze one!


karlthev


----------



## Billson (Oct 24, 2005)

Enrique,

Before this thread starts to become a sign up list, I suggest you make a definite announcement if you're considering this or not. I, for one, think that a first come-first served basis is fair to everyone but that a preset date for the start of the light sale should be announced beforehand.


----------



## diggdug13 (Oct 24, 2005)

Although I do not intend on buying any "special" ION lights (one is enough for me), I agree with Billson. I suggest that you announce a date that the web site will be open for business and then first come first served.

Doug


----------



## karlthev (Oct 24, 2005)

I agree with Biilson....sorry, I guess I jumped the gun.



karlthev


----------



## diggdug13 (Oct 24, 2005)

Karl,
I don't think you jumped the gun, I just think you were expressing your excitement for your next light...lol  

Doug


----------



## Endeavour (Oct 24, 2005)

Billson,

I already have stated that a website will be opened in the future, but that doesn't stop people from jumping into lines anyway  Whether I'm considering something or not doesn't matter unless I actually go and change something I've said before, and I haven't yet. 

-Enrique


----------



## bmstrong (Oct 24, 2005)

E: Good deal. I'll wait for the website..


----------



## Gimpy00Wang (Oct 24, 2005)

Waiting anxiously for the website so I can place an order... 

- Chris


----------



## Cadster (Oct 24, 2005)

Ditto Brian and Chris. Ahh, the joy of anticipation...:mecry:


----------



## StanTeate (Oct 26, 2005)

Are the protos out yet? I'm anxious to hear the good news/reviews! All them photons coming out this tiny, barely bigger than a quarter, SureFire A2 equivalent. Ok, maybe not the throw but the same usefulness. Sometimes waiting is such hard work! Let the reviews begin!

Ok, im finished.


----------



## Billson (Oct 26, 2005)

Enrique,

Thanks for the clarification. I just didn't want the thread getting cluttered up with posts from people lining up for something when there's no line to begin with.


----------



## Endeavour (Oct 27, 2005)

Stan: The prototype shown in the first post is currently being played around with by someone, and I'm sure they'll post their views sometime this week(end). I'll be building up 6 more prototypes and sending those out around the country and globe as well.

I'm going to be very busy with this project, and others occupying my life for the next few days and weeks, so updates, etc. might be a little slow. I'll have some new photos of the other 6 prototypes at some point next week.

Stay tuned. 

-Enrique


----------



## shiftd (Oct 28, 2005)

hmm, who is that someone? 

take your time enriq, but hurry up please. I cannot wait any longer 

umm, any beamshot?


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 28, 2005)




----------



## Endeavour (Oct 31, 2005)

Hey Folks,

Some new pictures of a couple of prototypes. 





[size=-2]Low Mode[/size]










[size=-2]High Mode[/size]










[size=-2]Low Mode[/size]











Still liking the red anodizing, Kiessling? 

I'll be building a few more prototypes that will be going out this week to some other people.

At this point I've identified a few areas that will be improved from the prototypes for better quality and reliability one being a foam washer will be made to counter battery rattle and provide overall better operation.

Production of the lights will begin soon, just taking care of the final details at this point.  I'll keep you all posted with progress.

Take care folks.

-Enrique


----------



## dbrad (Oct 31, 2005)

:rock::twothumbs


----------



## Icarus (Oct 31, 2005)

:wow: very nice Enrique. I like the green as much as the blue! :goodjob:


----------



## Kiessling (Oct 31, 2005)

Enrique said:


> Still liking the red anodizing, Kiessling?



Yessir!  
Is this really HAIII? It looks so brilliant and perfect in tone ... :thinking:
bernie


----------



## bmstrong (Oct 31, 2005)

Game on! Titanium here we come!


----------



## Gimpy00Wang (Oct 31, 2005)

Sweet... Keep us posted. I'll need one of these. 

- Chris


----------



## Endeavour (Oct 31, 2005)

Kiessling said:


> Yessir!
> Is this really HAIII? It looks so brilliant and perfect in tone ... :thinking:



Bernie,

Yep, sure is, I've got a good anodizer.  The natural coloration, as well as all the others is a very nice, smooth finish, which I was pleasantly surprised with when I received them. Usually anodizing has some imperfections inherent with the process if left undyed and even some of the best lights I've got aren't 'perfect' when left in the natural coloration; these guys seem to have their process down well.

Two of the lights have suffered falls, the one attached to my keychain on the picture from about 4 feet onto concrete, taking the brunt of the fall and escaping unscathed. The other was the blue one, that I dropped and it skidded across the concrete floor a short distance, coming to rest with a tiny scratch in the surface and nothing more from it's tumble. Lesson learned: don't work on lights while walking outside.

Icarus: I like the green the best of the colors, aside from the natural and black. 

Thanks for the kind words, folks. I hope you all enjoy these when you've got them in hand.


----------



## cue003 (Oct 31, 2005)

That green is soooo sweet. I really want a green one.

Looking forward to seeing pictures of the alum/bronze version and ti version.

Curtis


----------



## flashlight (Oct 31, 2005)

Endeavour said:


> Bernie,
> 
> Yep, sure is, I've got a good anodizer.  The natural coloration, as well as all the others is a very nice, smooth finish, which I was pleasantly surprised with when I received them. Usually anodizing has some imperfections inherent with the process if left undyed and even some of the best lights I've got aren't 'perfect' when left in the natural coloration; these guys seem to have their process down well.
> 
> ...



 You _dropped & scratched_ *my* blue one! It's OK, I still want it but maybe you could take a little of the price since it's 'damaged' now.


----------



## JJohn (Oct 31, 2005)

Very simply... I want one! The only question is Ti or HA. I hope that I get to make the choice.

John


----------



## Cadster (Oct 31, 2005)




----------



## diggdug13 (Nov 1, 2005)

Endeavour said:


> Bernie,
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for the kind words, folks. I hope you all enjoy these when you've got them in hand.


 
Quit kidding yourself Enrique, I've never met anyone so anal about perfection (good thing) there is no way we will enjoy them when we get them in hand WE WILL LOVE THEM. 

you are da man!!!!!!!:rock: 

Doug


----------



## Dr_Joe (Nov 1, 2005)

:mecry: I'm really disappointed about this "NO LIST" thing ! 
In fact, I don't really want any flashlights, I just like being on the list :sick2:  Just kidding ! 

The waiting........ is.................. KILLING me !!!! :sweat: :hairpull:


----------



## ArsMachina (Nov 1, 2005)

Hi Enrique,

they are so wonderful, it is hard to wait for their arrival! 

Jochen


----------



## Endeavour (Nov 1, 2005)

cue: The Aluminum Bronze and Titanium versions will show up here when the run is done, so it'll be a while yet before I've got any of those to show. 

Flashlight: You mean *my* blue light that isn't going anywhere? :nana:

JJohn: Either way you'll end up with something that suits your needs in either of the two versions, and of course you'll get to choose if the options are available. 

Cadster: Thanks. 

Doug: I sure hope so. 

Jochen: Just setting the final details straight to get something good out the door, there aren't enough hours in the day to get work done on everything sometimes, though.  Soon. 

-Enrique


----------



## shannow (Nov 1, 2005)

Are you still supplying the 20CR2 batteries?

So the people who were on the pre-order list shouldnt expect thier light for at least 1-2 months from now? Any rough estimation?


----------



## Diode (Nov 3, 2005)

So.... where's the sign-up list? :duck:


----------



## marcspar (Nov 3, 2005)

Diode said:


> So.... where's the sign-up list? :duck:



"Earlier on, preorders for the CR2 Ion were taken, offered at $125 shipped within the USA, $130 Internationally, and was capped off at 50 units. All of these spaces have been filled, but a website is forthcoming for easy ordering once the run of parts is complete, so if you didn’t make it onto the list, worry not, there are opportunities to be had yet in the near future."

So..... no sign up list; we are just waiting for them to be available on the web site.

Marc


----------



## Endeavour (Nov 3, 2005)

Diode said:


> So.... where's the sign-up list? :duck:



Hiding under a rock in Siberia. Let me know if you find it.  

Shannow, yes, I do still plan on offering the batteries, more on that below. As for estimations, I don't like putting myself into boxes with dates, or setting deadlines, when a number of things involved are beyond my direct control; that is to say, I don't own a glass fabrication, machine, die cutting, plating, etc. shop. I'm just as eager as the rest of everyone here to get one of these in my hands (I'm not keeping any of the prototypes while they circulate about), and rest assured that I'm working as fast as possible to get something out that everyone will be satisfied with.

More on the batteries: I've been debating the use of some Chinese CR2 cells, the same brand that BatteryStation puts their label on, or some American cells by Rayovac. American cells tend to be more reliable, and last a little longer than their Chinese counterparts, but they cost more. American cells would cost $1.50 in 20 packs versus $1.00 for Chinese cells. I think the American cells are better, and prefer to support domestic companies as opposed to sending money overseas - the Ion is made entirely in the US, converter boards and all. What would you all prefer?

This weekend I plan to build up a few more modules and ship some prototypes to more folks here in the states before they cross the Atlantic over to Europe, and also will post some pictures of a light with a UV Module installed and a few others.

-Enrique


----------



## Billson (Nov 3, 2005)

Endeavour said:


> More on the batteries: I've been debating the use of some Chinese CR2 cells, the same brand that BatteryStation puts their label on, or some American cells by Rayovac. American cells tend to be more reliable, and last a little longer than their Chinese counterparts, but they cost more. American cells would cost $1.50 in 20 packs versus $1.00 for Chinese cells. I think the American cells are better, and prefer to support domestic companies as opposed to sending money overseas - the Ion is made entirely in the US, converter boards and all. What would you all prefer?



IMHO, unless the Rayovac can provide 50% more runtime, I would go for the cheaper cells.


----------



## xochi (Nov 3, 2005)

Any links to comparisons of the two cells?


----------



## HarryN (Nov 4, 2005)

The CR2s are just beginning to go into test. For a general perspective, consider using the 123 testing by silverfox in the battery section.

There is more to a cell than just its lifetime performance in this kind of test, IMHO. The ROVs come with a warranty protecting the light from damage from cell leaking - I am reasonably sure that this is unique to the larger battery brand names. The other aspect, which is not often brought up, is liability for the person supplying the cells. Who's problem is it if the cells leak and damage the light ?

That is why my CR2 side x side will come with the ROVs, and will only be warranted if used with specific brand cells - no exceptions. (sorry for the slightly OT aspect).


----------



## greenLED (Nov 4, 2005)

I keep trying to stay away from this thread, but can't help myself. Those are some good-looking lights, Endeavour! Best luck with this project.


----------



## diggdug13 (Nov 4, 2005)

Enrique,

Personally. I'd rather the $$ going to ROV, your entire light has been lovingly made in the US and you went to great lengths to ensure the quality and charisma of the light maintain near perfection, why now at the the end would you want to lower your standards and go with a battery that is less reliable?

just my 2 cents

enjoy and btw I WANT THE GREEN but I'll settle with a black one.

Doug


----------



## teststrips (Nov 4, 2005)

my vote is to go totally american... I like the idea of a warrenty.


----------



## Endeavour (Nov 4, 2005)

Hey Folks,

I would have expected more response one way or the other on the batteries; I guess most are indifferent. :shrug:

I'd prefer to support domestic industries as has been done with the rest of the project, and the cells are better, so that is what I'm going to do. With American cells, warranty on them aside, you have less of a dropout rate as with Asian ones (no dead on arrival, or quickly failing cells), and get longer runtime; basically all the benefits of higher quality.

-Enrique


----------



## Gimpy00Wang (Nov 4, 2005)

I vote for the ROV cells. Like others have said...why compromise now?!? 

- Chris


----------



## Cadster (Nov 4, 2005)

I estimate the high quality batteries (domestic) will cost me an additional
2 or 3 dollars per month based on my daily usage. Definitely worth it for me.


----------



## karlthev (Nov 4, 2005)

American!!!!!


----------



## Kiessling (Nov 4, 2005)

I vote quality and hopefully safety associated with this quality. And yes, I am a fearful chicken 
bernie


----------



## StanTeate (Nov 4, 2005)

I vote American. It would be a shame for such a nice light to be compromised by possible marginal batteries, via leakage or such. Besides, putting so much effort into a nice light, it doesn't make sense to use a questionable power plant. I don't think you'd see a Yugo engine in a Dodge Viper, Thunderbird, or Corvette. Nothing wrong with the engine, just not a good match with the product. This is a nice, expensive, little light. I'd rather go the safe, if conservative route, and feed it something that won't give it indigestion. My 2 cents.

StanTeate


----------



## residue (Nov 5, 2005)

not concerned about procuring cells. just make more red ions because i want TWO.


----------



## McGizmo (Nov 5, 2005)

Colorful little chap!! 

Perfect flood for a pocket light, IMHO.


----------



## diggdug13 (Nov 5, 2005)

Oh just rub it in Don.....rub it in....lol

btw nice lights...

Doug


----------



## Kiessling (Nov 5, 2005)

Stunning photo ... oo:

The lights aren't that bad either ... 

bernie


----------



## paulr (Nov 5, 2005)

That photo makes me want a Spy 005. I hadn't paid it so much attention before, but it's one of the biggest steps in modder flashlight styling in a while. I have to have one now. Why does CPF keep doing this?  Sigh .


----------



## xochi (Nov 5, 2005)

For me Don's photo made me really happy about being on the Ion list and made not being able to afford a Spy a little bit easierl. Something tells me that once I receive my Ion, I'll have a much harder time justifying new light purchases! 

BTW, I think it is really incredible to see the various small run light makers offering each other support and input! It's really a testament to their passion for the art of lights and this crazy community.:grouphug:


----------



## cy (Nov 5, 2005)

WOW... PK2 and ion


----------



## NewBie (Nov 5, 2005)

McGizmo said:


> Colorful little chap!!
> 
> Perfect flood for a pocket light, IMHO.




That Ion looks quite nice!


----------



## flashlight (Nov 6, 2005)

Don, that PhotonKing 2 looks like a WMD. :nana:

OK enough OT guys, back to our regular program on the CR2 Ion.


----------



## Endeavour (Nov 6, 2005)

Don: Nice picture.  The red hardcoat certainly sticks out in contrast to the usual blacks and greys. Hope you've enjoyed playing with it so far.

Newbie & others: Thanks. 

I took some weight measures of the CR2 Ion a few days ago and it came out to 26 grams (0.92 Ounces), including a battery, which is pretty lightweight. 

On another note, more folks should be receiving some prototype Ions this week, and hopefully they'll have some time to run a few tests and post their results here soon after. Also, time permitting I'll have some photos up tomorrow evening with some pictures of my own of a few of the other versions (magnesium bodies & UV modules) built up. 

-Enrique


----------



## fleegs (Nov 6, 2005)

McGizmo said:


> Colorful little chap!!
> 
> Perfect flood for a pocket light, IMHO.


 
Better submit this for the CPF calendar if you can.

rob


----------



## joema (Nov 6, 2005)

Endeavour said:


> I took some weight measures of the CR2 Ion a few days ago and it came out to 26 grams (0.92 Ounces), including a battery...



Considering the Jil CR2 1.3W UP is 33 grams (1.16 ounces), the Orb Raw is 28 grams (1 ounce), and even the tiny Arc AAA is 21.2 g (0.75 oz), that's pretty good.


----------



## Kiessling (Nov 6, 2005)

fleegs said:


> Better submit this for the CPF calendar if you can.
> 
> rob



dito!


----------



## Frenchyled (Nov 6, 2005)

Dito too !!
Just a small message to let Enrique know that I did not die


----------



## Justintoxicated (Nov 9, 2005)

I'm not in chat as often but I'm still anticipating this light. This will be my next flashlight for sure.


----------



## scuba (Nov 9, 2005)

Is there any way to get a bigger version of that picture to use as a wallpaper? That would be sweet...


----------



## [email protected] (Nov 9, 2005)

Endeavour said:


> On another note, more folks should be receiving some prototype Ions this week, and hopefully they'll have some time to run a few tests and post their results here soon after. Also, time permitting I'll have some photos up tomorrow evening with some pictures of my own of a few of the other versions (magnesium bodies & UV modules) built up.
> 
> -Enrique


----------



## bmstrong (Nov 9, 2005)

Anyone get their proto's besides Don?


----------



## diggdug13 (Nov 9, 2005)

bmstrong said:


> Anyone get their proto's besides Don?



 that would fall into the "dreaming" category for me.

I'm having a hardenough time waiting for my pre order Ion..

doug


----------



## xochi (Nov 9, 2005)

I was hoping that one of the testers would have posted some of there thoughts by now. I'm really curious to hear impressions of the beam characteristics and the brightness of the low level.


----------



## Kiessling (Nov 9, 2005)

Possibly had to sign an NDA ...  
bernie


----------



## Dr_Joe (Nov 10, 2005)




----------



## jtice (Nov 10, 2005)

yea, whats up with the testers, so slow to respond, this is rediculous ! 

Oh wait, *I* am a beta tester ! oo:

Well, as soon as my test specimen arrives, 
I will have a full review, along with a ton of pics knowing me.

tick tock tick tock tick tock 

~John


----------



## StanTeate (Nov 11, 2005)

Is there a chance these will be ready BEFORE Christmas? Just a thought.


----------



## Lightedge (Nov 11, 2005)

I had the same thought. Mainly because it will be MY Christmas present if available. Otherwise I will probably get something crummy.


----------



## Endeavour (Nov 12, 2005)

Hey Folks,

Some others have received a prototype, but I guess they're shy. :shrug: I've gotten some more made, and some of the others back, so more will be going out Monday around the US, and then across the Atlantic to a few buddies in Europe.

Kiessling: Cat's out of the bag! Why you...! :nana: 

Lightedge & StanTeate: I don't know, but I wouldn't count on it. As it stands, it's a _possibility_ assuming there are no delays and everything runs entirely as planned. More than likely these will be available close to the very beginning of January 2006.

And, a couple of pictures of the CR2 Ion with a UV Module installed (or Death Ray if you prefer )






[size=-2]High Mode UV





Low Mode UV[/size]






The UV Ion works pretty well, lots of things fluoresce under it that didn't under royal blue lighting that I had tried out with Luxeons a few months back. Interesting was sort of things you find with UV light. I'm no expert on UV though, and will be sending the module over to jtice with his test light for him to report on it for you all.

The last picture is the only color that hasn't had a decent close up shot - a black CR2 Ion, and probably my favorite of the colors, slick and elegant.

In other related news, production on the metal parts began on Friday. I've been slowly accumulating parts for the past few weeks aside from the ones needing machining, and should be ready to assemble the modules shortly after the arrival of the first sets of metal parts. The wheels of progress are turning, and everythings moving at a brisk and steady pace here on my end. I'll keep you posted with news and photos as things move along. 

Take care folks.

-Enrique


----------



## StanTeate (Nov 13, 2005)

Thanks for your frank reply. My expectations have been revised appropriately. Here's to hoping for the best. The pics just keep getting better!

StanTeate


----------



## JJohn (Nov 13, 2005)

My favorite is also the black one. Very sharp looking! Keep up the good work. It is getting harder and harder to wait for this light. 

John


----------



## Wong (Nov 13, 2005)

Will the first 50 lights out before X'mas ?





Cheers
Wong


----------



## gregw (Nov 13, 2005)

Thanks for the update and progress report. 

That black one looks really good..  

Good thing I was in line early for one of those.. :rock:


----------



## Gimpy00Wang (Nov 13, 2005)

Thanks for the update. I hope that site of yours can handle the flood of orders you're going to get when you open the doors. 

- Chris


----------



## cue003 (Nov 13, 2005)

I was thinking the same thing about his site. I know for sure I am probably going to order 3 more lights. 

1) UV version
2) Red or Green version
3) Ti version

That should hold me over.

Curtis


----------



## bmstrong (Nov 13, 2005)

>>More than likely these will be available close to the very beginning of January 2006.

Sniff. Sniff..


----------



## Endeavour (Nov 14, 2005)

Hey Folks,

Wong: If any of the lights are out before then it'll be the 50 pre-ordered, of course. However, I'm unsure if they'll be ready by then or not at this point.

Cue & Gimpy: I think the site should be fine, the server has never been down before. 

-Enrique


----------



## Peter Atwood (Nov 15, 2005)

I just became aware of this thread. I much have one of those in black!  Very nice looking light and I'll just have to deal with another battery to keep in stock....is there an email list I can get on for this?


----------



## Justintoxicated (Nov 15, 2005)

now I want a UV one too but can't afford it or justify it for and EDC, but that thing looks like you could find some scorpions at the desert really easy!


----------



## idleprocess (Nov 17, 2005)

It would be nice to see some more of those protos... :evilgrin:


----------



## teststrips (Nov 21, 2005)

protos! Show us Protos!


----------



## Red_Dot (Nov 21, 2005)

I'm curious - still no review updates from beta testers ? C'mon Guys - the suspense is killing me.


----------



## Billson (Nov 22, 2005)

Actually, I'm more interested in the runtime plots for both high and low than the prototype pictures.


----------



## balazer (Nov 22, 2005)

Enrique,

What is the flux bin of the Cree XLamps that you'll be using? Where do you get them?

Thanks,
Jacob


----------



## xochi (Nov 25, 2005)

Whi PI?


----------



## M.TEX (Nov 25, 2005)

hello guys

sorry for ask this question but where can I get one of this ?

and how about the price ?

Please let me know ok

Thanks,


----------



## xochi (Nov 26, 2005)

This question has been asked and answered a bunch. Generally, it's best to thoroughly check a thread for such basic info before posting. If you check the first page of the thread you will find all the information you are looking for and likely a surprise or two. 

The formal, web-based ordering stage for this light hasn't started yet.


----------



## Endeavour (Nov 26, 2005)

Hey Folks,

I've been busy working away in the background, and that's likely how it'll be for the next few weeks until things are completed.

In the coming weeks some parts from production will be arriving and being assembled; the converters, LEDs, and all the parts for the modules are going to be the first parts, followed afterwards by the rest of the production parts. It will be getting a fair bit busier here on my end in short order.

M.Tex: All the information you're looking for is in the first post of this thread.

xochi: I like Pis. 

As usual, I'll keep you all posted. 

-Enrique


----------



## M.TEX (Nov 26, 2005)

Thank you Endeavour !

It looks like is too late to get my light right ?
how many for the next production? 
Oh well count me in for the second if Im not late...
I would like to get one with reflector whatever color....
I will be happy with any little light, my $ is kind short.
Please let me know ok
sorry for asking the same questions again , as you can see
Im new here.:thanks:


----------



## ibcj (Nov 26, 2005)

M.Tex

Check this link http://www.cr2ion.com/ everyday like I do. Correct me if I am wrong Enrique, but this is where they will show up for sale.


----------



## M.TEX (Nov 26, 2005)

Ok......looks like is NOT working YET but I will keep Looking...

Thanks ,:naughty:


----------



## ibcj (Nov 26, 2005)

I'm assuming that is the website, because Endeavour had linked pictures from the site. The picture link doesn't work anymore either. From the other posts, it looks like the lights won't be availabe until sometime in January at the earliest. I'm guessing that the website will be up when the lights are ready.


----------



## JJohn (Nov 30, 2005)

Where are the reviews? C'mon guys, I need something to help me wait until January. I too would love to see runtime plots or just hear some words about how long both settings stay in regulation. I would also love to hear about the tint and beam uniformity. I don't need long formal reviews, just some more info that will hold me over for the next month.

John


----------



## HarryN (Nov 30, 2005)

Hi JJOHN - if it helps any, Endevour is sending one to me to hand carry to the CPF meet in N Cal this weekend. I am not a formal tester, but maybe some people there will post comments in that section after the meeting.

Cree does a pretty nice job on tint, esp. since they are so desperately trying to match / beat LL.


----------



## xochi (Nov 30, 2005)

Perhaps the public silence from the testers is a result of feeling a little uncomfortable about "reviewing" a friends work publicly. I wouldn't hesitate to offer my opinions of a friends work if he asked for criticism to help improve something but I'd feel odd about doing that publicly. 

That being said, I'm as curious as anyone of the testers impressions. In particular I'd like to know what they thought of the beam characteristics and the brightness of the low level.


----------



## Endeavour (Nov 30, 2005)

xochi said:


> Perhaps the public silence from the testers is a result of feeling a little uncomfortable about "reviewing" a friends work publicly.



Someone was bound to say that sooner or later, so I'll address the issue now; there are no extenuating problems or censorship, or anything of the sort. No one aside from a select few have been sent prototypes to evaluate, and there was no requirement of said few to do a review. The reason being I've not sent any further parts out is because these are prototypes, and I don't want false impressions made based on something that isn't completely representative of the final product. There are a couple of things that are different than the prototypes for the production lights, primarily a foam pad to prevent battery rattle and provide completely smooth switch operation (if the light is shaken without one, the spring compresses sometimes moving into high mode if no pad is present to provide force against the battery). There are a few other minor things that are going to be improved upon as well, but I'll be waiting until they are before sending anything to anyone for an actual review. I'm anal according to some people earlier on in the thread.  

What I sent over to Harry for the CA get together is a _prototype_ and isn't something that's going out for reviews, tests, and whatnot. When everything is set to go and the final versions complete and ready for a review, I'll send them out then. For now, I'm happy hearing from people privately about their use of the light, so far all comments have been positive aside from the foam washer issue, which was something that I've planned from the start but I haven't gotten any of them in yet, they're still being made.

So, in a few weeks, once I have everything to my liking, I will be sending a few out for review to a few folks - jtice, since he's posted already he's getting one, and a couple of others around the world. 

In about two-three weeks I'll have some of the machined parts in and will begin assembling all the light engines, etc. so they're ready to go upon the arrival of the rest of the parts.

Take care folks.

-Enrique


----------



## StanTeate (Nov 30, 2005)

Thank you for the update. Great idea, the foam washer. Can't wait for reviews and the real thing!


----------



## cy (Nov 30, 2005)

cooool... can't wait to get mine


----------



## diggdug13 (Dec 1, 2005)

Endeavour said:


> I'm anal according to some people earlier on in the thread.
> 
> Take care folks.
> 
> -Enrique


 
That was me I take credit for that statement :rock: but I did add the words "retentive" and "that's a good thing for someone building a light". keep up the great work Enrique.

Doug


----------



## rscanady (Dec 1, 2005)

oh man, that black one is GORGEOUS! Now I am hooked, so I too am anxiously awaiting their birth. 

Staying tuned!

Great work BTW so far.

Ryan


----------



## grift (Dec 5, 2005)

i want one of these *VERY BADLY  *

keep up the fabulous work:goodjob:


----------



## CroMAGnet (Dec 5, 2005)

Hi there! I got to play with this light at the CPF Get-together on Saturday. I liked it a lot. "

"Running CREE LED on a primary 3w CR2 battery, it was really a beautiful piece or work and it was hard for Harry to get it out of my hands. 

As many know I'm going through a 'flood' phase and this light delivered. Running at 350mA High and I forget the low. The flood was incomparable. It was like my A19 with less hotspot. I took it to my room for LUX readings and it put out 75 very wide and usable LUX on high and ONE LUX on low. The tint was a warm white like what the McLux TK reflector does and the reflector looked of similar material.

NOTE to Endeavor, people really liked the light and most wanted a brighter low level. I liked it low but would prefer it as a 3rd level and the 350 as a medium 2nd level. Then probably 550mA or so for the High 1st Level. Not sure if it's even possible to do. Just my 2 cents. Definately put me up high on the list for your new CR2 ION in Green! Like this one."

I'd be happy to do a full and proper review if you'd like Enrique 

.


----------



## M.TEX (Dec 5, 2005)

Give us some taste ! Pictures pictures please ....:naughty:


----------



## Endeavour (Dec 6, 2005)

Hey Cromag,

Glad to hear you liked it!  One thing to note would be that it's pushing 350mA to a "one watt" (power ratings vary by current and LED forward voltage) Cree XLamp, not a 3 watt part. 

Something I'd like to note as well, in regards to the flood beam is that the brightness of the beam is almost the same throughout; the hotspot is barely discernable and there is very little dimming from the spot to the edge of the beam, the output is very well dispersed.

Low level: I'll have to take a look again at the unit I sent down there. I'm pretty sure that the one that was sent was one with the low mode of choice (there are versions pushing 10mA, which is pretty dim, but great for night adapted eyes). I was pretty happy with the light put out on low since I'm usually using it indoors, where is provides plenty of light for most purposes - I don't want to make a low mode too bright either. 

As for current settings, you get diminishing output with the higher current you start pumping into the LED - 500ish mA isn't going to produce a huge difference in light output, but it will produce more heat, too much in such a small package, and also drain the batteries a LOT faster, not to mention that the LED will have significantly increased phosphor degradation since the surface area for heatsinking simply isn't there for such high drive levels. There are compromises that need to be made for the admission to a smaller form factor flashlight, but I've done my best to keep brightness high while keeping good runtime and proper thermal transfer properties. As for three stages, that might have to be a feature of a different light. :nana:

For brighter overall output I'm going to have to point towards the future and offer upgrade parts when LEDs with higher efficiencies make their debut and put out more light at the same settings as these do. 

What you all got to see down in CA was just short of a final version, there were a few minor things left to change, but for the most part, that's what's going to come out in production.

Production Status: Currently I'm just waiting for some parts to arrive so assembly can begin on the modules and centers. Still looking at a January 2006 debut for the Ions when the other parts are ready and assembled with the ones showing up soon.

-Enrique


----------



## diggdug13 (Dec 6, 2005)

Enrique,

can't wait to do my own personal review sometime in january when they debut. Keep up the great work.

doug

now quite yappin and keep working (on my light....lol)


----------



## joema (Dec 6, 2005)

Endeavour said:


> ...Low level: I'll have to take a look again at the unit I sent down there...


How low to make "low" is a difficult call. The U2 is frequently criticized for a too-bright "low", and it's only two lumens.

My HDS U60 low is set to 0.12 lumens, which is great for night vision, but only useful in a really dark environment.

Although two levels are much better than one, it introduces a challenge: should low be a general utility level, or a dark environment night vision level?

The ideal would be three levels: max, medium for general use, and a dim low for night vision/dark environment use.

I lean toward making low about two lumens. That way it's not totally useless during the day, yet won't totally blind you at night.


----------



## GJW (Dec 6, 2005)

Endeavour said:


> Something I'd like to note as well, in regards to the flood beam is that the brightness of the beam is almost the same throughout; the hotspot is barely discernable and there is very little dimming from the spot to the edge of the beam, the output is very well dispersed.



There were quite a few of us at the get together thinking that there was some sort of diffusion coating on the lens -- the die was just so indistinct and 'foggy'.
Is that just a feature of the Cree or is there some coating there?


----------



## M.TEX (Dec 6, 2005)

hello Guys !

Any date to send payment yet or should I wait Jan.2006?
Thanks,


----------



## Endeavour (Dec 6, 2005)

GJW: The "fog" would be a fixture of the LED itself and the way the phosphor is coated over the die - the lens on the prototype was a UCL, so I'm reasonably sure _it_ wasn't foggy. 

Joema: Last time I had asked for opinions about a year ago when the project was initially posted at the CPF I got such a wide-range of suggestions and different positions that I learned it best not to repeat that; someone once noted in one of the old threads that if the light was designed "by committee", I'd end up with an elephant, and a pink one at that. (Hmm... Wonder what an Ion in Hot Pink would look like? ) The Ion is what it is, and there's little than can change. I will evaluate the low mode on the prototype whenever it arrives again, but I'm reasonably sure that the current settings will be staying as is, since, if I recall correctly, last I used it in the dark it was plenty of light. 

M.TEX: Nothing has changed as far as preorders and future plans go. :wave:

Diggdug: Glad to hear it. 

-Enrique


----------



## [email protected] (Dec 7, 2005)

Oohh hot pink...




YAY!


----------



## diggdug13 (Dec 7, 2005)

leave it to [email protected] to find the pink elephant 

doug


----------



## Gimpy00Wang (Dec 7, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> Oohh hot pink...
> 
> 
> 
> YAY!


 Ahh...my eyes are burning.

- Chris


----------



## paulr (Dec 7, 2005)

For night vision use, I prefer a red led and I have a red Photon II knockoff on my keys (along with a white genuine Photon II) for that purpose.


----------



## [email protected] (Dec 7, 2005)

paulr said:


> For night vision use, I prefer a red led and I have a red Photon II knockoff on my keys (along with a white genuine Photon II) for that purpose.



:huh2: :thinking:


----------



## paulr (Dec 7, 2005)

What I mean is I'd rather have a red led than an ultra-dim white led for unobtrusive night use. I don't think it's practical to put a second led into the Ion so I'd rather deal with it by caryring a second light (Photon sized or smaller). That means IMO a three level Ion doesn't gain much.


----------



## [email protected] (Dec 7, 2005)

Ahhh.


----------



## HarryN (Dec 7, 2005)

GJW said:


> There were quite a few of us at the get together thinking that there was some sort of diffusion coating on the lens -- the die was just so indistinct and 'foggy'.
> Is that just a feature of the Cree or is there some coating there?



Just seconding Endevour's comments that there is a distinct difference in the LED dome between a Cree and a Luxeon. The analogy I use is that a Luxeon is very much like a "clear glass" light bulb, and the Cree is more like a "frosted" light bulb, both in looks and how the light looks to your eyes. That is one reason the Cree is very good for flood applications. An excellent choice for this light.


----------



## xochi (Dec 9, 2005)

Endeavour said:


> Hey Cromag,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is one of the things I really like about the Ion , that being that utility, efficency and longevity are high priorities. Freak CPF lights are great for an ooh and an awe but then so are fireworks but they aren't practical as a portable light source.



Endeavour said:


> For brighter overall output I'm going to have to point towards the future and offer upgrade parts when LEDs with higher efficiencies make their debut and put out more light at the same settings as these do.
> 
> -Enrique



This would really be great to have as an option. It's always a bummer to watch a once prized light ride the downward slope of obsolescence at the introduction of newer, brighter, better and cheaper.


----------



## HarryN (Dec 9, 2005)

I had a chance to carry it in my inside jacket pocket yesterday. (yes I am returning it) Hardly know it is there.


----------



## pokkuhlag (Dec 12, 2005)

Good thing the Ions are coming in januari 2006 and not now. Otherwise I would be afraid of losing the package due to christmas card frenzy. :sweat:


----------



## Frenchyled (Dec 12, 2005)

Hehe....and more time to save some buck for me  Or maybe to spend too much too


----------



## pokkuhlag (Dec 12, 2005)

You better save some money, FrenchyLed. Something tells me you'll be buying more than one version of CR2 Ion. Oh yeah that something is called your flashlight addiction .


----------



## Endeavour (Dec 12, 2005)

Hey Folks,

A small update:
The first sets of parts will be arriving in short order, and I'll post pictures whenever they do. It looks like the lights will start being built up next week or the week after, depending on how quick shipping is this time of the year, and then await the arrival of the rest of the parts for release and shipment sometime in January. I'm looking forward to finally get a chance to play with some of the titanium lights and finally having enough parts to build up a couple of magnesium ones I've had here in my desk. 

I'll keep you all posted.

-Enrique


----------



## Haz (Dec 12, 2005)

Forgive my ignorance, I have not heard of a flashlight made from magnesium. How is this different from the other material?, such as the aluminium, titantium etc. Is it more lightweight, durable, conductive, or provide better heat distribution?

If the battery is flat, can we perhaps burn the light, and have a few minutes of extreme blinding light?. :naughty:


----------



## Endeavour (Dec 13, 2005)

Haz,

The magnesium versions I had made were one-offs, or, in this case, three-offs, which were more of a novelty than anything else. A fellow I know in rock climbing had requested weights on the aluminum and Titanium lights, and after some thought I decided to make some Mg ones since it's one of the lightest metalic elements out there.

So, the only advantage that I know of is the lightness of the metal, I don't feign to know its other properties very well, but I've heard the heat transfer is decent. Whenever I get one fully built up I'll post some weight measures of it, the Ti ones, and the Aluminum Bronze ones as well.

-Enrique


----------



## joema (Dec 13, 2005)

Below are some relevant numbers. A few things stand out:

- Copper is heavy but has excellent thermal conductivity
- Titanium has very poor heat conductivity. That's one attraction of using it in watches: it feels warm, unlike other metals that feel cold. However used in an LED flashlight you'd have to give very close attention to thermal management
- Magnesium is the lightest of all and has good thermal conductivity. Only exotic lithium/magnesium alloys are lighter. However magnesium has a reputation of being difficult to machine. It can catch fire and it's very difficult to extinguish. It's called a "class D" fire -- water won't extinguish it; takes a special fire extinguisher designed for metal fires.
- Aluminum has a blend of good qualities: light, good thermal conductivity, easy to machine. That's why it's used so much.

Aluminum 2024, Temper T-4:
Heat conducivity: 121 W/m-C
Density: 2.8 grams per cubic cm

Copper Alloy 11000:
Heat conductivity: 388 W/m-C
Density: 8.93 grams per cubic cm

Titanium (pure):
Heat conductivity: 15.6 W/m-C
4.51 grams per cubic cm

Magnesium (pure):
Heat conductivity: 171 W/m-C
1.76 grams per cubic cm


----------



## Haz (Dec 13, 2005)

Thanks Endeavour for your explanation. I can just imagine that this flashlight will be almost weightless given the size, and the choice of material used.
Thanks Joema for your detailed explanation. I'm always interested reading your post with your in-depth knowledge and comparisions.


----------



## bmstrong (Dec 20, 2005)

Bump. Any updates?


----------



## Endeavour (Dec 20, 2005)

Just working away in the background; things are moving right along as expected, and we're still looking at a January timeframe for release, as noted earlier on. I don't post filler text since I know what folks want to see is actual photos of progress, and more importantly, to get a completed light in their hands - rest assured that I am most certainly working towards that as fast as is possible. Lack of posts does not imply lack of progress; the project is moving at a rather brisk pace here on my end, but I don't have a need to post and keep this thread at the top of a forum like other often do unless I have something substancial or important to say, such as parts arrivals, changes of plans, important news, etc.

As it stands I'm expecting the first sets of parts to arrive any day now, and I've been working on getting everything, electronics, machining, website, etc. set and ready to go as quick as possible. I'll post pictures as soon as I have them, and keep you all posted with progress updates as things move along, as always.

-Enrique


----------



## HarryN (Dec 20, 2005)

I will just add one more thing. The "low" on the unit sent to the flashlight get together was questioned as being a bit "too low" at the time, but I tried using it to read a note on the refrigerator after being asleep for a while - plenty of light for reading. 

There is a lot of light being flashed around at a meet like that (as you can see from the beams powering up into the sky) - it is not always easy to switch back and forth between an output designed for low level lighting use and HID sky cannons. :laughing:


----------



## Dr_Joe (Dec 21, 2005)




----------



## Endeavour (Dec 21, 2005)

A small update:
Certain individuals have kept on insisting from the start of this portion of the thread to get a Blue CR2 Ion, which I wasn't originally planning on making in any appreciable quantity, since I didn't think most would like it. You all sure showed me. :nana: Shiftd finally pushed me over the edge last night and I will be making a _few_ CR2 Ions in blue hardcoat available now to whoever is interested.

Take care folks.

-Enrique


----------



## Kiessling (Dec 21, 2005)

Ah ... the door just opened a little bit ...   ... and I can already feel more pushes to open it wider ... :nana:


----------



## LouRoy (Dec 21, 2005)

I am interested in a blue one--please, please, purdy please!! :thumbsup:


----------



## Uriah (Dec 21, 2005)

Blue sounds good to me I would like 1 Blue CR2!!!!


----------



## Catman10 (Dec 21, 2005)

I would be interested in a blue, too please.


----------



## mut (Dec 21, 2005)

Endeavour,
Please put me down for a blue one.

Thanks
mut


----------



## jhung (Dec 21, 2005)

I'd like a blue CR2 Ion.


----------



## cy (Dec 21, 2005)

I'd like a blue please


----------



## joema (Dec 21, 2005)

HarryN said:


> I will just add one more thing. The "low" on the unit sent to the flashlight get together was questioned as being a bit "too low" at the time, but I tried using it to read a note on the refrigerator after being asleep for a while - plenty of light for reading...


I've thought a lot about this, and I realize it's probably too late to change, but...

My preference for low is roughly 2-7 lumens, somewhere between the low setting of a U2 (2 lumens) and the ARC AAA-P output (7 lumens). You don't want a low setting to preserve night vision -- that's too low for a general use setting when only two levels are available.

E.g, with fully dark adapted eyes I can read notes up close with my HDS U60 set to 0.08 lumens. But that's so low in the daytime it's almost invisible. If a two level light had a super dim low setting, it would essentially revert to a single level light for most practical use. You want both high and low levels to be practical and useable for the broadest range of activities, even at the cost of night vision (which is a fringe specialty application).


----------



## LouRoy (Dec 21, 2005)

joema, 

Excellent thoughts and I agree with you. I personally find the 2.5 lumen setting on my HDS42 to be useful. I would not like the low to be any less than that. I think even a bit higher in your range (4-7) would be good.


----------



## diggdug13 (Dec 22, 2005)

I'm partial to black but that blue looks tooo good to pass up.. 

Endeavour, can you please change my presale CR2 ION to BLUE Please.

btw how hard coated is it? HA II? or III. mine will be used on my keychain (or one of them) and will be in contact with keys, knives and other pieces of metal, so I'm wondering how it will hold up.

doug


----------



## Luff (Dec 22, 2005)

If I'm not too late, I'd like to have a blue Ion, too.

<edit> Ok ... I misunderstood and believed blue would be available for the pre-orders. I stand corrected, but am no less anxious to get the Ion in HA natural.


----------



## Mikhail (Dec 22, 2005)

I would like one blue hardcoat please


----------



## teststrips (Dec 22, 2005)

I got shot down before when requesting my pre-order to be changed to blue.... I'd really like a blue one... could you change my preorder to blue... the blue is nice.

What do you mean there are people insistant on the blue color?


----------



## Red_Dot (Dec 22, 2005)

Enrique - I'm also in for a blue CR2 ION. Thanks for making a few of them available. Just a question - are we allowed to change colours or purchase the blue CR2 ION seperately ?


----------



## Endeavour (Dec 22, 2005)

Hey Folks,

It seems another one of these lists spontaneously spawned itself again. :thinking:

I'm still going by what I said earlier on and offering everything through a website, rather than create lists here. The opening date on that is still not set, but I will be keeping you posted, and let you know when everything's ready to go there. No one's too late, no one needs to FedEx me their firstborn like coyote . There's no jumping through any hoops, only patience for the last stretch to be finished.

Unfortunately I cannot switch anyone's preorder light to blue; the preorder was only for the hardcoat natural and black pieces which cost less than the colored pieces do. There will be about 30 pieces of blue lights available when the time comes to order them.

Take care folks.

-Enrique


----------



## teststrips (Dec 22, 2005)

what about if pre-order people pay the difference? This being my most $$$ flashlight purchase ever, why not add on some and get not just an amazing/awesome/perfect light, but an amazing/awesome/perfect light that just happens to be my fav color.


----------



## diggdug13 (Dec 22, 2005)

Ok, Endeavour. [snnnnifffffff]

I'll live with a black one, [snnnnniiiiiiifffffff] and then order a blue one later..:naughty:

thanks for offering them to us all

doug


----------



## Solstice (Dec 22, 2005)

If someone wants to give up their preorder spot and wait for a blue one, I'd be interested in taking up residence for a HA Natural preorder spot (at preorder price)....


----------



## Endeavour (Dec 23, 2005)

Hey Folks,

First off I'd like to clear up a few misconceptions some folks have had on the CR2 Ion that I've noticed around the CPF. First off, the light, in its primary form costs $145, and comes hard anodized in either the black or natural colorations. In this part of the thread I'd forgotten to mention that, and have edited the first post accordingly. :doh: There are limited quantities of colored versions available in Red, Green, and Blue for $165, as well as aluminum bronze at $175, and some Titanium ones at $290. The light has two fully regulated levels of brightness, not one, as some have thought. And, of course, there's the rest of the features listed in the first post, Ultra Clear Lens, custom seals, chemkoted interior, Cree XLamp, and an optical system designed to output a nice, even flood beam for EDC usage.

All that said, onto the good stuff:

It's Christmas. You all have stood with me for a while now as the project has progressed, and I appreciate your patience in waiting for everything to get done, so I'll let anyone who preordered an Ion back at the start change their color to red, green, blue, aluminum bronze, or Titanium if you cover the difference of between the two versions, $21 for RGB Hardcoat, $32 for Aluminum Bronze, and $150 for the Titanium. The prices are adjusted slightly for PayPal fees. Just post here and let me know that you'd like your Ion changed to, and then send over a PayPal payment to [email protected], and I'll get you taken care of. Please be aware, though, that the Titanium versions may take longer to arrive than the others since they'll be the last to be made since the metal is more difficult to machine. Once again folks, thanks for putting up with me this long. 

Aside from allowing changes in the preorders, nothing else is planned - I'm not starting any new lists, nor taking orders of any sort until everything's closer to completion in the coming weeks, and the website is setup and ready to go.

A small update, everything's moving right along still here on my end, parts are arriving for the converters, and everything's starting to gear up for assembly in the very near future. God willing post-Christmas shipping won't take as long as it has been lately. 

Take care folks, and have a Merry Christmas, Chanukah, Kwanzaa, or any celebration otherwise; Happy Holidays, and best wishes for the coming New Year.






-Enrique


----------



## Radio (Dec 23, 2005)

Nice light, thanks for th info!!!


----------



## diggdug13 (Dec 23, 2005)

Endeavour,

do you have any pics of the Al Bronze? I'd love to see what they look like before I decide on the Al Bronze or the Green.

Thanks
Doug


----------



## diggdug13 (Dec 23, 2005)

PP sent for Al bronze upgrade

Doug


----------



## Bob_G (Dec 23, 2005)

> do you have any pics of the Al Bronze? I'd love to see what they look like before I decide on the Al Bronze or the Green.


My feeling precisely


----------



## Endeavour (Dec 23, 2005)

Unfortunately I do not have any pictures of my own of aluminum bronze, I've only seen other parts done in that metal, and I've not yet received the Ion parts in it. This is the best photo I could find of raw Aluminum Bronze on google: http://www.nonferrousproducts.com/CopperBlocks.JPG (ignore the image name).

As for weights, it'll be heavier, but the most dense part of all the lights is aluminum across the board, so the weight difference shouldn't be too drastic. I'll gladly take some pictures and take some measurements when they arrive and I get some built up, though.


----------



## cy (Dec 23, 2005)

I'll take a ti
PP sent

thank YOU!


----------



## Luff (Dec 23, 2005)

My PayPal's on it's way for the Aluminum Bronze upgrade.


----------



## Billson (Dec 23, 2005)

I'd like the titanium upgrade. Email sent with some questions.


----------



## MY (Dec 23, 2005)

I will take a ti light please.

Regards.


----------



## colubrid (Dec 23, 2005)

okay so do I have to wait or can I pay for a blue one now?


----------



## kevindick (Dec 23, 2005)

Does anyone know the practical difference in wear resistance for the hardcoat anodized versus aluminum bronze?

I did a little Googling, but it appears they are measured differently--evidently you can't really measure the Rockwell hardness of hardcoat anodized aluminum because the softness of the underlying aluminum alloy confounds the results.

Instead, they use something called the Taber Abrasion test. But I couldn't find any Taber Abrasion results for aluminum bronze.

I did find a common point of comparison between the two. Hard chrome plate has Taber Abrasion characteristics about the same as hardcoat. It's Rc is 70-72. Aluminum bronze's Rc appears to range from 85-99.

So my guess is aluminum bronze will wear better. But does anyone have anything better than this admittedly tenuous speculation?


----------



## Endeavour (Dec 24, 2005)

colubrid, MY, I'm not accepting any more preorders, or general orders, only the people who preordered are able to change their versions. Everything else for everyone is still as planned as before.

Kevin: I won't feign to know comparisons between abrasion and rockwell scales to compare aluminum bronze and hard anodizing's durability, I'll let someone with more knowledge in that area answer.


----------



## NewBie (Dec 24, 2005)

kevindick said:


> Does anyone know the practical difference in wear resistance for the hardcoat anodized versus aluminum bronze?
> 
> I did a little Googling, but it appears they are measured differently--evidently you can't really measure the Rockwell hardness of hardcoat anodized aluminum because the softness of the underlying aluminum alloy confounds the results.
> 
> ...




The choice of the specific Aluminum Bronze alloy is really going to make a big difference. Then depending on how it is treated and worked also makes a difference.

Annealed will result in a soft 46 HRB.

Cold rolled, extruded, and half hard result in HRB 94-98.

But extruded and half hard need to have Nickel, Iron, Manganese added. Which alters other properties like corrosion resistance. 

Also,
"In the most of practical commercial applications, the corrosion characteristics of aluminum bronzes are primarily related to aluminum content. Alloys with up to 8% Al normally have completely face-centered cubic structures and a good resistance to corrosion attack. As aluminum con tent increases above 8%, a-b duplex structures appear. "

This basically alters how the overall material resists corrosion and what it is resistant to.


----------



## kevindick (Dec 24, 2005)

Endeavour, do you know the particular alloy you'll be using? I vaguely remember seeing a specification for it in one of your posts, but I was unable to find it through Search or browsing the CR2 Ion threads.

Yeah, I know this is a niggling little detail. But now my curiosity is up.


----------



## StanTeate (Dec 24, 2005)

Paypal sent to upgrade to Al-Bronze.

StanTeate


----------



## flashlight (Dec 24, 2005)

Endeavour said:


> Hey Folks,
> 
> First off I'd like to clear up a few misconceptions some folks have had on the CR2 Ion that I've noticed around the CPF. First off, the light, in its primary form costs $145, and comes hard anodized in either the black or natural colorations. In this part of the thread I'd forgotten to mention that, and have edited the first post accordingly. :doh: There are limited quantities of colored versions available in Red, Green, and Blue for $165, as well as aluminum bronze at $175, and some Titanium ones at $290. The light has two fully regulated levels of brightness, not one, as some have thought. And, of course, there's the rest of the features listed in the first post, Ultra Clear Lens, custom seals, chemkoted interior, Cree XLamp, and an optical system designed to output a nice, even flood beam for EDC usage.
> 
> ...



Enrique, that's very kind of you. You know that I'm one of those that kept bugging you for a blue one from very early on, so I'll be changing my order to a blue & a Ti one. 

Would you be so kind as to also add on this relevant info to your first post for easy reference. Thanks & Merry X'mas!


----------



## Amorphous (Dec 24, 2005)

Payment sent for Aluminum Bronze.


For those interested in Aluminum Bronzes.. 
www.copper.org/innovations/2002/august/aluminum1.html


----------



## kevindick (Dec 24, 2005)

There's even more detailed information on specific products at www.matweb.com (you have to do a search on "aluminum bronze"). There's quite a lot of variance in material properties depending on the precise alloy and tempering process,as noted by NewBie.


----------



## cue003 (Dec 24, 2005)

Paypal sent for my upgrade to Ti. You mentioned way back in the post about offering the CR2 batteries in groupings of 20. Is that still the case? If so, when do we pay for those?

Thanks.

Curtis


----------



## shannow (Dec 24, 2005)

Is the titanium CR2 hard anodised? If I pay extra for the Ti will I have to wait longer to recieve my light than the HA black/Nat?


----------



## karlthev (Dec 24, 2005)

? :huh2:


----------



## FRANKVZ (Dec 24, 2005)

PayPal's on it's way for the Aluminum Bronze upgrade. :wow:


----------



## teststrips (Dec 24, 2005)

I want to upgrade to a blue one... pp on the way... also just to confuse you I put in some extra money in order to get some batteries... as discussed way back in post #88 for 1.50... if you can't do anything with the batteries, just keep the extra as a tip!

Thanks for putting up with all the headache and hassle to do this stellar project.


----------



## Endeavour (Dec 24, 2005)

cue, it's something I hadn't considered originally when I allowed changes, but everyone on the preorder should certainly have the opportunity to have batteries included with their order. This thread has grown rather large and long, and I'll be starting a new one when the first sets of machined parts arrive and assembly begins. I'll consolidate all the details of this thread into the new one, and post what's to come, as well as infor on the batteries, etc.

Also, folks, please don't send any extra money for things that I'm not offering yet - I've not opened up for any general orders, so even those on preorder cannot buy more flashlights yet, only change their existing one to a different version/material, and I'm not taking money for batteries yet, so please don't send anything for that yet, either.

And, finally, in regards to the Titanium lights: Anodizing does exist for Titanium. Hard Anodizing, or Type III anodizing, is only done on aluminum versions of these lights, and if that sort of finish can be applied to Titanium, I haven't heard of it, and I certainly don't know anyone who can do it. The only two people I've ever seen anodize titanium in any way are McGizmo and Peter Atwood, who both have done some neat things in colored anodizing with the metal themselves. As for wait time, it is possible that the Titanium versions take a little longer to ship than the aluminum or other versions, as I had said before, since it's the last set of parts being run, and it's a difficult metal to machine.

Thanks folks.

-Enrique


----------



## cue003 (Dec 24, 2005)

Thanks for the response Enrique. I have another question.... will the Ti version be lighter than the black HA3 version? 
Curtis


----------



## bmstrong (Dec 24, 2005)

>>And, finally, in regards to the Titanium lights: Anodizing does exist for Titanium. Hard Anodizing, or Type III anodizing, is only done on aluminum versions of these lights, and if that sort of finish can be applied to Titanium, I haven't heard of it, and I certainly don't know anyone who can do it.

No thanks on the Ano for the Ti. It really doesn't need it. My question, though, is will the Ti versions have the knurl?


----------



## flashlight (Dec 25, 2005)

Aargh, :hairpull: decision, decisions, blue HA, black HA, Aluminium Bronze or Titanium???  Wish I could get all...Anyway  for Blue HA upgrade for mine. :thanks: :santa:


----------



## HgRyu (Dec 26, 2005)

Paypal sent for for Aluminum Bronze.

Thanks.


----------



## JJohn (Dec 26, 2005)

Merry Christmas to all and Happy Holidays to you and your families. 

This light is going to be my belated holiday gift (from me, to me). I anxiously await the release of this well-designed light. I am again asking myself what material (Black Al HAIII or Ti) should I choose. The answer depends on whether this will be my EDC for a long time or not. 

So if it is a great match to my needs, then I will go for the Ti. It will have many years of service so I can easily justify the additional cost. What I need to learn from any reviewers are runtimes on both high and low, rough comparison to how much dimmer on low than the old standard Arc AAA, does it have a decent tint on both high and low, and rough estimate of beam divergence (spot size at some known distance). Can anyone who played with the prototypes shed some light on these issues. Pun intended.

In keeping with the "buy both" moto, I guess I could buy the HAIII and then if I love it, hope to still be able to request a Ti model. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,
John


----------



## cy (Dec 26, 2005)

bmstrong said:


> No thanks on the Ano for the Ti. It really doesn't need it. My question, though, is will the Ti versions have the knurl?


would also like to know if knurls will be retained.


----------



## Lightedge (Dec 26, 2005)

I to am considering a Ti finish and am now wondering about the knurling. Seems like this would be difficult to apply on Ti but I'm far from an expert on this type of thing.


----------



## jdriller (Dec 26, 2005)

Paypal sent for blue hardcoat.


----------



## Billson (Dec 26, 2005)

for upgrade to titanium.


----------



## Endeavour (Dec 27, 2005)

Hey Folks,

The knurling will be applied to all the versions, including Titanium. Titanium is more difficult to machine, but it shouldn't be a problem to retain the knurls.

As for weight, Titanium weighs a little bit more than aluminum. However, given the size of the parts, I feel that the weight difference in the parts will be pretty negligible.

bmstrong: There have never been any plans to anodize the titanium, since most like the finish bare (as do I). I *might* bead blast them, but that's the only surface finish that would be done if not left in its simply machined state.

JJohn: "Come not to the CPF for counsel, for they will say buy this AND that."  Whichever version you choose, the Ion should last you for a lifetime of use, regardless of choice of finish.

As a small update, the first sets of machined parts are shipping to me tomorrow, and assembly will begin in short order. All the converter pieces are in, and everything's ready to move onto this next phase of the project. I'll keep you all posted.

-Enrique


----------



## cy (Dec 27, 2005)

enrique, thanks for the feedback and glad to hear ti will have knurling. 

would prefer ti finish to be left alone with machining marks intact. simpler too.


----------



## xochi (Dec 29, 2005)

With all the choices, I understand JJohn's dilema. For me it comes down like this, I can't afford Ti so I just keep in mind that the aluminum version will weigh less than the Ti version and since aluminum has much better heat sinking properties than Ti it's possible that after a few minutes of runtime the aluminum version will be brighter too. So basically the aluminum ver may be lighter, brighter , more scratch resistant and cheaper, sounds like an EDC no-brainer..... as for an Ion to keep as a shelf queen that's a different story. 

As for the perfect Low, it's the amount of light that would keep me stuffing a light into my pocket even if the other level quit working. Low should be considered the primary use level (IMHO). Of course this doesn't really apply to flashaholics who go straight to high "just to look at the purty light".:naughty:


----------



## cy (Dec 29, 2005)

getting ti to gain better wear resistance for actual use. 

Larry posted because of ti's greater density, but lower heat conductivity. VS aluminum less density but higher heat conductivity. so pretty much a wash

at least that's been my experience with the few ti lights I do have.


----------



## jeffb (Dec 29, 2005)

Enrique,

E-mail sent!

jeffb


----------



## pcmike (Dec 29, 2005)

To Endeavour:

I know I haven't chimed in much (if at all, I can't remember) on this light, but I'd just like to let you know that I've been following its progression all along and I really love your attention to detail. Your fanaticism (when it comes to this light) is to be commended! :thumbsup:

With that said, the only thing I humblely ask is that you please make available a decent number of lights in the hardcoat colors (specifically blue and green). I haven't yet decided if I'm going to be purchasing one of these lights yet when the website goes up, as I don't even own an LED light yet to start to understand the kind of light they produce (I'm currently waiting for my Mr. BULK Chameleon).... however, if I were to purchase one, I would most definitely want it in either blue or green. It also appears that quite a few others feel this same way as is evident by some of the "chosen fifty" changing their color preference to one of the hardcoat colors. I understand that it has been your policy all along to not allow lines to form and that everyone will have a chance to purchase a light once the website is up, but please.. just keep in mind that I have a feeling that alot of people will really order up the hardcoat colors in short order.

Also, by any chance could you (or anyone else) please point me in the right direction when it comes to reviews that may have been written by some of the people who have recieved the prototypes.

:thanks: Enrique!


----------



## P7rancher (Dec 29, 2005)

OK, I give up, I want one (or two or three).

Love the thread and can't wait for the orders to start. I put off my Peak because of this light. I am going to carry a small piece (2.1” [53.3mm]) of extra large drink straw from Sonic for some practice. Hurry, but make it right, and not to dim on low (at least 4 to 6 lumens please).
P7rancher:thanks: :thanks:


----------



## Endeavour (Dec 29, 2005)

xochi: The Titanium versions of the lights all have aluminum heatsinks across the board to avoid any thermal problems, the LED should not overheat under most circumstances. A full titanium light would cause a premature death of the LED since the heat would not be able to be removed properly. The objective of the light has always been to be a tool, and the Titanium version is no exception from that.

As for low modes, everyone is going to have a differing opinion of what a proper level is, and I'm sticking to what I've decided on a while back; no one has yet to complain about it being too low, except those comparing it around places with significant ambient light or around HID cannons. Most of the debate on this topic seems to come from those who haven't had a chance to see the light yet - those who have actually used it in the dark have liked it, and so have I.

CY: Titanium is just bad at dealing with significant levels of heat, period. It's a bad metal to be the sole component of a light that needs to move heat away from its source, and LEDs are rather heat sensitive. That's not to say Titanium is whollistically horrible, it does have some nice mechanical characteristics, it's a strong metal, but a light made entirely out of Ti generally means quick degradation of the LED. Once again, that's why the primary heatsinking area has stayed aluminum.

pcmike & P7rancher: 40 of each of the colored versions will be available, and I'll give everyone advance notice before the debut of the website so everyone has ample time to prepare themselves to "snipe" the different versions they want. Thank you very much for the kind words and support.  

Happy New Years to everyone, albeit a bit early. Take care folks. 

-Enrique


----------



## diggdug13 (Dec 30, 2005)

How many Bronze Al versions are you making? 

Doug


----------



## Frenchyled (Dec 30, 2005)

Enrique !!! Where are you 

Sorry, i didn't read this thread since two weeks 

But, please don't forget to open your web merchant !!! I don't need A titanium one in priority, and maybe some other ION stuff


----------



## kevindick (Dec 30, 2005)

Endeavour, were you able to determine the precise aluminium bronze alloy you'll be using? Or did I just miss it somehow?


----------



## xochi (Dec 30, 2005)

Isn't hard anodized Aluminum alot more scratch and wear resistant than titanium (and much more so than bead blasted ti)?

Enrique, kill the low level brightness issue alltogether, send a unit to someone with a ver 4 arc AAA and beamshot skills. It really is a crux issue for an EDC with non adjustable levels.


----------



## Endeavour (Dec 30, 2005)

Kevin: I'll get back to you on that at some point next week, I've forgotten what alloy I had decided on for it.

Frenchy: Forgetting about the website is a near impossiblity. 

diggdug: 75 Aluminum Bronze

xochi: Hard Anodizing is a surface treatment to a "soft" metal, essentially a hard shell to a soft interior. If you drop a hard anodized light it will dent, etc. etc. Titanium, by itself, is just an overall stonger metal. I can't vouch for its abrassion resistance or otherwise since I haven't had a chance to carry a Titanium light for any reasonable period of time, but judging from near daily carry of my McLuxIII PD, the Titanium parts should fare pretty well... The clip and bezel are both bead blasted and they look as good as the day I got them months ago. On the other hand, plain, bare aluminum, or some non-hardcoat treatment thereof, would very easily get worn with time. I certainly wouldn't brand a Titanium light to strictly "shelf queen" or "drawer duty" status, though.

As for the brightness "issue", I feel it to be a non-issue. It has been tested by a number of people on and off the forum, and those who have used it have not complained about the level which was decided upon. The converter parts are already in, the settings aren't going to change, and the light is what it is.

In other news, a package arrived today containing the first sets of machined parts. Everything looks good and fits together right, and the beginnings of assembly will begin promptly at the start of the new year. I'll post some pictures either tomorrow, or if not I'll see you all in 2006!

Take care folks.

-Enrique


----------



## Lightedge (Dec 30, 2005)

My father managed an automated machining center in a military aircraft company for 35 years and knows something about all of these finishes.

Hard Anodized Aluminum - Bare Aluminum is a soft metal and wears and corrodes very easily. Hard anodizing aluminum develops an extremely hard layer 2.5/10,000 inches deep and builds up another 2.5/10,000 inches thick layer on top of the aluminum. Basically 5/10,000 inch of the surface is very wear and corrosion resistant and the underneath is soft and relatively corrodable. That said, we all know some of the finest flashlights in the world are made of this material and they serve their owners well for decades.

Titanium - raw titanium is about 100 times as expensive as raw aluminum and is extremely hard and heat resistant. Density wise, it's much heavier than aluminum and somewhat lighter than steal. It's nearly as hard as steal and since it is extremely heat resistant and abrasive, it tears up cutter blades during machining and is basically a nightmare to deal with as a manufacturing material. Titanium is also the most corrosion resistant material he knows of. He could not imagine scenarios during daily use that would somehow 'wear' a titanium flashlight that is typically carried in pockets with keys and loose change. Titanium would be the king of toughness in these lights as far as he is concerned.

Aluminum bronze - He is familiar with aircraft grade stuff and couldn't compare with the material in this light. The stuff he is accustomed to is extremely hard and wear resistant. Very difficult to machine but not as much so as titanium. With aircraft, aluminum bronze is used as break pads on military transport planes. He was not familiar with how corrosion resistant this material is.

In my mind, aluminum bronze could be the best price/quality compromise of the bunch. It would be very helpful to understand the 'grade' of material used in this light and the extent to which aluminum bronze is corrosion resistant.

Just my 2 cents.

Sorry Enrique, I'm really not trying to create headaches for you.


----------



## NewBie (Dec 30, 2005)

Well, by the Grace of the Flashlight Godess and all that is good in the world, one of these little gems showed up for me to check out, before it has to leave...
...if you love something, let it go. If it comes back, it is yours forever.


I'm really very surprised by the total amount of light comming out of this light, it is simply amazing.

The two levels are perfect, DO NOT change them! (notice I didn't say please!)

The high mode is wonderful, and gives you a useful runtime, running the LED at a very efficient point. Well done.

The low mode is more than plenty for the dark.

One thing I realized, while using this light, is the flood mode is extremely useful when looking for things, with a fairly flat field output that is awesome in practice. I also really like the color bin you chose for the light.

I think you outdid yourself with this little diamond.

It will be sad to have to let it go.

Thank you very much for letting me take a peek at this masterpiece!


----------



## pcmike (Dec 31, 2005)

No pictures NewBie? ;(


----------



## NewBie (Dec 31, 2005)

I'm saving that for later.


----------



## Icebreak (Dec 31, 2005)

Before the big wind drastically altered Tony’s plans, he showed us a prototype made from aluminum bronze. I liked the hue immediately. After learning more about the material it became obvious that it was a premium selection for building a light.

I usually prefer more throw but after listening to others about useful light and efficient regulation levels, I'm gaining affection for small floodish task lights. Had I known Endeavor's CR2 Ion Flashlight would also come in aluminum bronze I would have signed up. Absolutely gorgeous metal.

Here is the thread:

Chop's CR2 Proto

Here is a photo:







Hope this is some help for imagining what a knurled cylindar of this material would look like. Great choice IMHO.

- Jeff


----------



## Lightedge (Dec 31, 2005)

Man I wish I was on the initial 50 list! Dang!

Looks like my choice is going to be AL-bronze when they come available to the likes of me. This material sounds great from everything I've read and now I can envision what this light will look like. Great stuff!


----------



## diggdug13 (Dec 31, 2005)

That's the thread I was looking for about Al Bronze!!! thanks, now I'm even more happy that I'm on the list for an Al Bronze..

Doug


----------



## Endeavour (Dec 31, 2005)

Hey Folks,

Here's a quick picture of a few of the parts, a couple of centers, modules, boards, and a full red light from earlier on. The full set of production parts would take too long for me to lay out for a picture only to have to put it back away carefully. Assembly of the converters and light modules begins next week, and everything should be finished up in time for the arrival of the bezels and cases later in January. Everything's moving right along, and the parts received so far have been quite nice - the reflectors are very nicely done and, well, reflective, and the parts all are working together as expected, and has met my expectations for the light.







I'll take some better photos of the parts next week, this was just a quick picture of a few of the pieces, and keep you posted with the status of the project.

Icebreak: Thanks for the picture.  I've had lights made from brass and bronze, but both have tarnished without even having to look at them funny, so those have always ended up relegated to drawer duty - I didn't want the Ions to suffer the same fate, so aluminum bronze was chosen for its high corrosion resistance and durabilty, not to mention it looks good, too.

Take care folks.

-Enrique


----------



## jeffb (Dec 31, 2005)

for Ti upgrade!

Thanks,

jeffb


----------



## Lightedge (Dec 31, 2005)

Endeavour,

Whats your best guess of how long the people after the initial 50 will need to wait for lights? Sounds like the first 50 will be late January-ish. Will Ti and Al-bronze lights be longer? I apologize if this has been asked before. Thread is getting long.

Thanks.


----------



## Endeavour (Dec 31, 2005)

Lightedge: Not very long, if any. Everything's being built up at the same time. The first 50 lights will, of course, ship first (barring any delays on more exotic materials such as Titanium), but general orders will come shortly thereafter. Titanium is the only material that there will _possibly_ be a longer wait time for. All other parts should arrive at more or less the same time.

And, agreed, this thread is getting quite long, but the old mandate to cut threads off at 200 posts has come to pass, and I can't create another one on a clean slate. I will be revising the first post entirely soon, though, in an effort to consolidate all pertinent information in one place.

The last bit of news from this year: The foam washers arrived, and work great. Starting to make a dash for the last leg of the project now.

Happy New Years, folks.

-Enrique


----------



## flashlight (Jan 1, 2006)

Endeavour said:


> Lightedge: Not very long, if any. Everything's being built up at the same time. The first 50 lights will, of course, ship first (barring any delays on more exotic materials such as Titanium), but general orders will come shortly thereafter. Titanium is the only material that there will _possibly_ be a longer wait time for. All other parts should arrive at more or less the same time.
> 
> And, agreed, this thread is getting quite long, but the old mandate to cut threads off at 200 posts has come to pass, and I can't create another one on a clean slate. I will be revising the first post entirely soon, though, in an effort to consolidate all pertinent information in one place.
> 
> ...



Good idea to put all relevant info/updates & answers/FAQ into the first thread which will probably save you some time to put into making these great little lights instead.


----------



## gregw (Jan 1, 2006)

for upgrade to Aluminium Bronze.


----------



## residue (Jan 1, 2006)

is magnesium still going to be an option or was the idea dropped? 

are the body colors interchangeable?


----------



## Lightedge (Jan 1, 2006)

Thank you for the update Endeavour. I'm glad the wait will not be too much longer for the website purchasers. My birthday is late in January and am hoping to be able to purchase around that time as my main present.

I think you will sell out quickly. Great looking product and we are all very anxiously waiting.

Happy new year.


----------



## Endeavour (Jan 1, 2006)

Residue: The magnesium lights were a novelty I had made to satisfy my curiosity. Past that I've no intention of doing any more than the three I had done.

Lightedge: If all goes well there should be a light ready for you by then.


----------



## xochi (Jan 1, 2006)

Newbie isn't exactly liberal with praise so if this light has impressed him that much then I'm pretty certain that I will absolutely LOVE the Ion. Low level worries are now gone.

But yall coulda been a little kinder to us poverty stricken buggers and been a bit more critical of Titanium...sheesh.

Wonderful pictures Endeavour, I'm really getting excited. :thanks:


----------



## Dr_Joe (Jan 2, 2006)

I'm going away for 2 weeks in January..............with my luck the Ion site will open the day _after_ I leave, and they'll all be sold out the day _before_ I get back  "*DOH" *


----------



## bearhunter (Jan 2, 2006)

looks great i wont one


----------



## Red_Dot (Jan 4, 2006)

Enrique - $21 sent via paypal to change to BLUE HA3. Thanks


----------



## kevindick (Jan 4, 2006)

PP sent for Ti upgrade.

I won the lottery for another Ti light and so feel a strange moral obligation to get Ti whenever possible now. I guess I don't want any of my lights to get an inferiority complex.

I did do a little more research on the wear resistance of the various metals. As far as I can tell, a good grade of Al bronze is just about the hardest metal measured on the Rockwell B scale and should be about as wear resistant as hardcoat anodized Al. Ti is measured on the Rockwell C scale and all the common alloys are quite a bit harder and abrasion resistant than Al bronze.


----------



## diggdug13 (Jan 4, 2006)

Kevin,

you're becoming spoiled with the Ti....lol

thanks for the info on the Al Bronze (that's what I've got coming). Can't wait till they ship.

doug


----------



## kevindick (Jan 4, 2006)

Doug,

But now I have to sell a bunch of other lights to pay for all this Ti. I wonder if I'll have to get a "Flashlight Rider" on my homeowner's insurance?


----------



## NewBie (Jan 6, 2006)

Well, did some runtimes on this great little light prototype I am checking out:






If you look carefully, you can see one of the individual 30,000 datapoints.


----------



## JJohn (Jan 6, 2006)

The runtime plot looks really good for the high mode. Thanks for posting it. Regulation looks great. I am just a bit surprised at the amount of spread in runtimes due to varying operating temperature. Any rough estimates or data on the runtimes on LOW? 

Thanks again,
John


----------



## Billson (Jan 6, 2006)

Newbie,

Thanks for the info.

Interesting that you got 25 minutes more runtime when the light was running hotter. I'm guessing the battery is more efficient once it heats up.


----------



## Kiessling (Jan 6, 2006)

Billson, yes. Look here ... Don made some excessive and serious research on this:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/88983
In the end, it seem we were all wrong when it comes to runtimes, heat, continious vs intermittent brun. :green:
bernie


----------



## NewBie (Jan 6, 2006)

Billson,

Remember, regulated for LEDs is constant current.

When an LED heats up, it's Vf drops.

Thus, if you have a constant current AND the Vf drops, you actually draw less power from the battery, since Power = Current * Voltage.

This effect helps the light run a little bit longer, since you are drawing less power. This effect would be about 4%.

But meantime, you loose 12% of your light, due to the heat, when air cooled with a fan, vs. setting it on the terry bath towel (by the end of the regulated run when the flashlight body reaches it's peak temperature)

But we see a 27% increase in runtime, so where does the rest of it come from? You had the idea...

The other half of it is that since Lithium battery chemistry becomes more reactive when it is warm, you end up being able to get more energy out of the battery cell. This is a well known fact of Lithium cells which has been known for years, and some Li-Ion battery manufacturer's actually recommend you run their cells at 43C to get the most power out of them. They don't recommend higher temperatures though, due to associated risks. Definitely nothing at all new here.

But again, you suffer a loss of 12% of your light output.

One of those rob peter pay paul scenarios.


----------



## gregw (Jan 6, 2006)

Newbie, thanks for the runtime graph! :goodjob: 

Now, if only someone can come up with a way to transfer the heat from the emitter to the batteries efficiently, that will definitely be a win-win scenario..


----------



## xochi (Jan 6, 2006)

90ish minutes at 60ish lumens from a CR2 is AWESOME! For some reason I was expecting flat output to the 40ish minute mark and then the slope to an hour and a half. It would be cool to see the jil 1.3 plotted against the Ion.


----------



## Billson (Jan 6, 2006)

FWIW, I think the trade off in brightness vs runtime is acceptable because I'll either get more light or more runtime. At least it's not being lost elsewhere.


----------



## jtice (Jan 6, 2006)

Just wanted to make a few quick comments on the ION, 
which was waiting for me when I got home from work. 

No, they arent shipping yet, camb down, I am just a tester.

I will have a full review later on,
but I just wanted to express my first impressions.

I have a blue one here, I think it looks great.
its alittle lighter blue than I thought,
Little teal hue to it, havent seen a light this shade of blue before.

The lights machining is very good.
No sharp edges, they are all chamfered nicely, no machine marks.
The knurling is excellent. Its very grippy, but not too sharp, and very uniform.

This is my first experience with the Cree LED.
So I cant really comment much on that.
But the flood beam is nice for a light this size.
It has a very slight hotspot, that fades out to the spill.

The ION heats up fairly fast, as you can imagine.
But the tail end seems to heat up rather well also,
this is a good sign that the ION is disipating its head from the head well.
I wouldnt want to leave it laying on a table much, though I think it would handle it fine.

I have found it makes an excellent mouth light.
(sorry End, I promise to wash it) :green:
Its tiny size, and very light weight, so it is very easy to hold.
and the flood beam makes it great for close range, like holding a book or map.

All in all, a damn fine product,
concidering its relatively low price, compared to some other small run lights,
you reallly get a nice light for your money.

Good Job Enrique :thumbsup:

~John


----------



## flashlight (Jan 7, 2006)

Nice review jtice.  

Enrique, please make sure mine's not the one jtice reviewed though, you never know where else it's been!


----------



## pcmike (Jan 7, 2006)

:tsk: :lolsign:


----------



## NewBie (Jan 7, 2006)

xochi said:


> 90ish minutes at 60ish lumens from a CR2 is AWESOME! For some reason I was expecting flat output to the 40ish minute mark and then the slope to an hour and a half. It would be cool to see the jil 1.3 plotted against the Ion.



Sure you got one?


----------



## xochi (Jan 7, 2006)

NewBie said:


> Sure you got one?



If you'll do the plot, I'll send you the jil. Mine has a bit of a scratched window so it may not be the best for a brightness comparison but should be good for runtime. PM your address and I'll send it. I would like to get it back when you get the time, though.


----------



## xochi (Jan 8, 2006)

Jtice,

What are your impressions of the low level? Would you venture to make a comparison with any other lights ?


----------



## jtice (Jan 9, 2006)

Describing it is so hard,,, so, how about some beamshots? ! 

be back shortly...

Im back 

Not too great of shots, but I hope they help you get alittle bit of an idea.






Night adapted, low mode is plenty of light for getting around the house,
or reading a map.

~John


----------



## cy (Jan 9, 2006)

john, thanks for the beam shots. just making sure labels are in correct places. in your shots CR2 ion puts out way less light than fenix, which should be aprox. 25 lumens.


----------



## 4sevens (Jan 9, 2006)

Nice shots john!



cy said:


> john, thanks for the beam shots. just making sure labels are in correct places. in your shots CR2 ion puts out way less light than fenix, which should be aprox. 25 lumens.



Cy, the Ion has a conical reflector (as opposed to parabolic) so it's more of
a flood light than for throw. Actually just take a look at the spill! It's lit
up the whole room! Notice how much the pole to the right is brighter
than the fenix!


----------



## Archangel (Jan 9, 2006)

What he said. More throw doesn't mean more light.


----------



## jtice (Jan 9, 2006)

cy, 
Yes the shots are labled correct.

Pay attention to the every outter edges of the ION shot, 
see how its brighter than the eges of the Fenix?

Its hard to compare two different beams, and guess what lumens each it.

~John


----------



## StanTeate (Jan 9, 2006)

THANK YOU!! for the beam shots. We have some comparisons! For an upclose working in the dark light, I'd say we have a winner, from what I see. If ya ever had to read the serial number on the back of or under a computer or check out a server or computer device in a rack, when in comfined spaces, where it is usually dark, or look under raised flooring in a CO, this might just be the tool of choice. In light challenged areas, too much light can screw up your night vision, thanks for the low level Enrique. Thanks jtice for the beam shots.


----------



## cy (Jan 10, 2006)

john, in a ceiling bounce test, is ion and fenix putting out aprox. some amount of light?


----------



## jtice (Jan 10, 2006)

Ahhhh the good ol ceiling test 

The Fenix and ION are very very similar here.
I cant really tell one being brighter than the other,
though I think that the outter edges of the room are getting more light with the ION.

Bare in mind,
I think I have a pretty good Fenix,
and I am also testing a Proto ION at the moment.
Which isnt UCL, and the reflectors on the production ones are supposed to be better.

How much that will effect a ceiling test? who knows. Time will tell.

~John


----------



## cy (Jan 10, 2006)

ah.. perfect, if ion is putting out aprox same amount of light as fenix. 25 lumens like old Arc LS was just right amount of light for most closeup jobs. 

only so much mah capacity in a CR2 cell, got to have a few compromises to get decent runtime. 

beamshots can be so misleading


----------



## NewBie (Jan 10, 2006)

jtice said:


> Ahhhh the good ol ceiling test
> 
> The Fenix and ION are very very similar here.
> I cant really tell one being brighter than the other,
> ...




I'd have to say the Fenix looks like a monster next to the tiny CR2 Ion I have here, now that I have them in my hands at the same time.

I just tried the ceiling bounce tests with the CR2 Ion and the Fenix, on a ceiling with a popcorn finish, to spread the light out, and my Fenix is noticeably less bright. Which means the Fenix is probably putting out 60% of the light, as if I can see it (taking in account for the logrithmic response of the human eye). 

Oh, hey, got an idea. I just did the same test but set my light meter on the table. Under the identical conditions, the Fenix on the ceiling light bounce test is reading 1 lux on the meter. With the CR2 Ion, in the same scenario, I am reading 2 lux. So I was wrong, it the CR2 is putting out twice the light.

Once we see the production parts, which will have a few improvements in the optical department, I suspect the CR2 Ion *might* even hit 3 lux.

The CR2 Ion also sports outstanding regulation, where the L1P doesn't.


----------



## Mike abcd (Jan 10, 2006)

What kind of cell and how full was the Fenix battery?

Just wish the CR2 Ion could run on rechargeables like the Fenix. If it did, I'd get one.

Mike


----------



## jtice (Jan 10, 2006)

Yea cy,

The beamshots can be misleading, 
especially these, its very hard to compare a spot beam with a complete flood.

Its a totally differnt animal all together.
Plenty bright for close, to medium range,
Perfect for computer work, or looking around in the cab of the truck, etc.

~John


----------



## joema (Jan 10, 2006)

NewBie said:


> ...ceiling bounce tests...set my light meter on the table...Fenix on the ceiling light bounce test is reading 1 lux on the meter. With the CR2 Ion, in the same scenario, I am reading 2 lux...


NewBie, could you please try that against a white wall at closer range (say 2-3 feet)? That way you'll get more than 1 digit of resolution. Make sure you hold both lights and meter in exactly the same position.


----------



## jtice (Jan 10, 2006)

joema said:


> NewBie, could you please try that against a white wall at closer range (say 2-3 feet)? That way you'll get more than 1 digit of resolution. Make sure you hold both lights and meter in exactly the same position.



I was thinking the same thing,
1 Lux on my meter is not really enough to tell much.
Even though it has decimal places.

heh, as far as size, yea the Fenix is ALOT larger than the ION,
about twice as big.

The ION is also extremely light weight.
Which is why I like it as a neck light.

As said, me and Newbie are testing PROTOS,
so these readings etc, should only get better with the production models.

~John


----------



## NewBie (Jan 10, 2006)

Mike abcd said:


> What kind of cell and how full was the Fenix battery?
> 
> Mike




I used a brand new Lithium E2 cell made by Energizer with an expiration date of 2019 for the Fenix, and a new Duracell Ultra for the CR2 Ion(expiration date 2014). Both fresh out of the package. I just checked the same thing with a HR 2500mA NiMH cell that was charged in the past couple days (since you mentioned it) shows no difference, 1 lux in the ceiling bounce, meter on table test.


----------



## Kiessling (Jan 10, 2006)

Thanx for those shots !!!
hat I was hoping for ... big bad flood and a really low low mode ... :thumbsup:

bernie


----------



## Outdoors Fanatic (Jan 10, 2006)

Screw the Titanium! I want a CR2 ION *TUNGSTEN!* LOL

Now that would be the ultimate wear resistance flashlight ever made!

Just kidding Endeavour, a HAIII version is just too perfect...


----------



## xochi (Jan 10, 2006)

Hey Jtice,

Is that really the correct photo for the Ion low ? I just see a black square.


----------



## liteboy (Jan 10, 2006)

Mike abcd said:


> What kind of cell and how full was the Fenix battery?
> 
> Just wish the CR2 Ion could run on rechargeables like the Fenix. If it did, I'd get one.
> 
> Mike



I feel the same way, especially since CR2 batts are not exactly cheap. I will find myself using the light sparingly trying to conserve power which is not what I do with the RAW and Jil - I turn them on every chance I get! That's the greatest weakness of this light IMO...waiting for FF3.


----------



## Endeavour (Jan 10, 2006)

Hey Folks,

First off, thank you NewBie & Jtice for posting.

Now, to address some of the things that came up.

Rechargeables: No. At this point in time it's a moot point and really beating a dead horse. Rechargeables would overdrive the LED, and help quicken phosphor degradation and increase heat, especially in this small of a package. It is difficult at best to get buck/boost capability, high effiency, etc. all into something as small as the Ion. The light is what it is, and I suppose time will tell whether or not folks like it or not. For what it's worth, rechargeables aren't very high capacity in the CR2 size nor are rechargeables "free" since each charge uses electricity, and since someone brought it up... the FF3 uses a buck converter, so once the battery gets below ~3V you're just (safely) direct driving the LED, which to some might be worth it - different strokes. If rechargeable lithium cells in the CR2 size were actually made such that they had the same forward voltage of the battery they'd work in this application, but unfortunately, they don't. (I also don't know why; it's possible that such high voltages on the cells would also damage their usual camera applications - AA rechargeables have similar voltage to standard Alkalines, but  ) Ultimately I had to make a choice between different levels of practicality, and it was a no-brainer for me to go with what would perform best under use - CR2 cell replacements won't happen very often with the amount of runtime in the package (also, at $1.50ea CR2 cells aren't prohibitively expensive, either). To stay on topic, a discussion on the advantages or disadvantages of Rechargeables vs. Primaries is probably best suited for another thread.

xochi: The photo is taken from 10 feet away and with the light being dispersed as it is it's difficult for the camera to pick up anything in low light levels. As noted by myself and others, the low mode is usable for most situations in the dark; it's not just night-vision only as some seemed to have been branding it to be earlier on.

Going onto cy's comments: My own tests reflect more of what NewBie observed; I'll be taking a look at the light I sent to jtice when I get it back to see what the deal is. A few days ago I did the "ceiling bounce" against a stock Arc LS and the Ion came out looking to be about twice as bright. Of course, the human eye isn't the most precise instrument, nor is a ceiling bounce; there are many variables at work in any test and no real control. Comparing a flood beam and a throw beam is difficult, at best, regardless of the test you choose to do.

Once again I don't recommend passing judgment based on pictures on something that needs to be seen in the dark to be properly understood. The CPF is by and large used to flashlights that have throw to them, and this is something very different from the norm.

Stan, Kiessling, & others, thanks. 

Take care folks.

-Enrique


----------



## hotbeam (Jan 10, 2006)

Excellent! Can't wait to get one....


----------



## HarryN (Jan 10, 2006)

Just agreeing with Enrique, Primary CR2s are surprisingly long lasting, but R CR2s are somewhat useless IMHO. There just is not enough room in them, and frankly, I feel the same way about R123s. Until you get to Pila size cells, R Li Ion cells do not buy you enough to bother with.

Not to intrude on this thread, but I have used my own CR2 light for a month now, carrying it all the time, and turning it on (many times) for no particular reason and I am still on my first set of cells.


----------



## greenLED (Jan 10, 2006)

I'm with HarryN on this one. I've been using a CR2 on low (for my nightly bedtime routine) for about a month now. Still can do high if I want to (I take that as indication of enough juice left); in fact had it on high for about 10 minutes last night (some repairs outside). I expect at least 3-4 more weeks of juice left.

The lower capacity of RCR2's don't make them all that appealing.


----------



## jtice (Jan 10, 2006)

xochi said:


> Hey Jtice,
> 
> Is that really the correct photo for the Ion low ? I just see a black square.



Not all monitors are created alike.
It shows up better on my LCD, vs my CRTs.

Its like trying to take a comparison shot of a 1W led, and a HID spotlight,
you cant have one adjustment on the cam that is good for both.

~John


----------



## Billson (Jan 10, 2006)

Enrique,

Just a thought. Have you sent a light to Don to test? Maybe he could take a measurement on his IS to answer the brightness issue once and for all.


----------



## NewBie (Jan 10, 2006)

Will you be offering it in a depleted uranium model?


----------



## gregw (Jan 10, 2006)

Enrique, could you post an updated list for everyone in the pre-order, so that we know that the extra $$ we've sent in for upgrades to Ti, Al Bronze, Blue, etc... have been correctly account for? 

:thanks:


----------



## HarryN (Jan 11, 2006)

:laughing: 



NewBie said:


> Will you be offering it in a depleted uranium model?


----------



## diggdug13 (Jan 11, 2006)

I think I saw a picture don posted with a red CR2 ION in it, so hopefully don is monitoring this and can assist with the request.

Doug




Billson said:


> Enrique,
> 
> Just a thought. Have you sent a light to Don to test? Maybe he could take a measurement on his IS to answer the brightness issue once and for all.


----------



## Endeavour (Jan 11, 2006)

Billson & Doug: As far as I'm concerned, the brightness "issue" is a non-issue, though I do want to see jtice's Ion and compare it to others I've got here to make sure it's up to par, since those aren't the sort of results I and others got in our tests. That said, I'll consider asking Don if he'll do me the favor once I've got the production parts in, since those are the final product, and have a number of tweeks done to them which should improve overall performance.

As for Tungsten, Depleted Uranium... Why stop at depleted? Heck, let's build-in a small nuclear power plant and have it run for years off a single radioactive cell!  

-Enrique


----------



## diggdug13 (Jan 11, 2006)

Endeavour said:


> As for Tungsten, Depleted Uranium... Why stop at depleted? Heck, let's build-in a small nuclear power plant and have it run for years off a single radioactive cell!
> 
> -Enrique



Now that's what we're talking about. no need for batteries and I'm willing to bet that NO ONE would care about a beam shot....lol 

doug


----------



## shannow (Jan 11, 2006)

paypal sent for upgrade


----------



## ibcj (Jan 12, 2006)

I just bought 32 Duracell CR2 batteries, and I don't own any CR2 lights. 

Do you think I'm looking forward to this one ?


----------



## icebeng (Jan 12, 2006)

Endeavour said:


> As for Tungsten, Depleted Uranium... Why stop at depleted? Heck, let's build-in a small nuclear power plant and have it run for years off a single radioactive cell!
> 
> -Enrique



Before you know it, someone would have started a list with hordes of people clamouring to be in it.........


----------



## shannow (Jan 13, 2006)

Any updates?


----------



## colubrid (Jan 15, 2006)

I am dying to get this light to. How will we know when the list starts?


----------



## chasm22 (Jan 15, 2006)

To quote Newbie from another thread;

"Do you have any spec's, like the efficiency or anything? 

Runtime Graphs with light output levels on a *linear lux scale at a specified distance*? (my emphasis)

Do you have beamshots sitting next to other lights in the same picture? 

Has anyone like Roy done a independent review on this light yet? 

The hotwire guys have a known, pretty much lumen depreciation factor of 35% we use here on cpf, so we are looking at what, 35 lumens out the front? Has this been measured yet? 

IMHO, it would be very wise to have this important information, so one would know exactly what is being purchasd, before laying out so much money."


This light has been out there for quite some time now and as of yet I haven't seen any standard lux readings. I think Newbie knows how to take them, it must have slipped his mind. Or maybe everybody has just decided to use 'new' tests for this particular light. 

Sorry for being a little taciturn, I'm sure this is a great little light. But I'm a little weary of the ceiling bounce tests, temp readings on terry cloth robes and how the fenix looks like a monster next to ....et al,et al. And I sure would like to know how it came to be OK to test lights against one another using different batteries? Come on, is this for real? I think we can see why Newbie himself has asked for *independent* reviews of lights, eh Newb? 

I believe the public deserves better than ceiling bounce tests and runtime graphs with the light on a terry cloth robe or whatever. I'm still not sure of how long this thing will run on high on a single $1.50 CR2. BTW, maybe you or the Newb can lead me to where I can get a Duracell Ultra CR2 for $1.50 like the one he used to produce his runtime graphs. Or better yet, maybe we could get runtime graphs made with a $1.50 CR2!! Last time I checked, Duracell Ultra's were running about double the $1.50 figure. Go figure!

Can we get some temps of how warm the head gets during an extended runtime for each of the different materials used ie titanium, aluminum,etc? Again, it seems to me that this question has been asked and avoided with answers about how the heatsinks are all the same material, blah, blah, blah. Good enough, then the tests should all show that the temps for each different head should all be in the same general area right? 

I'm particularly appalled by the implication you make that anybody that likes/owns flashlights that throw won't be able to fully comprehend what the CR2 Ion is about. That's a little like saying that a person that likes fast cars might not be able to comprehend what Toyota has in mind with the Prius. Simpleminded me. I guess you, being an obvious lover of flood beams wouldn't understand a USL correct? Are you serious when you make a statement like, "there are many variables at work in any test and no real control"? Maybe that's why there's been a dearth of standard tests given to this light.

Can we just get some answers to some simple questions? The CR2 Ion should be able to stand on its own, so to speak, without excuses or explanations. 


You're the one producing the light. You should know what's in it, it's dimensions, how long it runs, how warm it gets, and how much light it puts out amongst other things. You should be able to produce these facts in an universally recognizeable format that allows a potential purchaser to compare the light with other lights. You shouldn't pick out the items you want known and exclude the others. IMO, this is your responsibility, not mine, not Newbies, Roys or anybody elses. 

Thanks,

chasm22


----------



## Luff (Jan 15, 2006)

chasm22:

I believe you'll find in the fullness of time that CPF members will provide all you've mentioned, and much, much more.

The missing consideration in your position, from my point of view, is that all sampling has been done on prototypes. The CR2 is not available at this time, and until a production light exists which incorporates all final design changes, any standardized testing and reporting would be misrepresentative. As a result, the typical CPF focus on every minute production detail, coupled with extensive test reporting, is being withheld ... by mutual consent.

I placed my order for Endeavour's design & paid my money based on the respect I have for Enrique, for his history on CPF, and for his absolute determination to remain true to his concept for this light. He hasn't hyped his effort. In fact, he took the original design out of the forums entirely for several months while he reconfigured the initial design.

I'm confident your every desire for information and objective comparative analysis will be more than satisfied once the production light is available.

:wave:


----------



## Endeavour (Jan 15, 2006)

chasm22,

First off, Newbie's past comments are his own, and I'd like to make one very important distinction that just because he is reviewing a flashlight and running tests on it, does not mean that he's somehow related to me in any way. Similarly jtice isn't, either, nor would Craig from LEDMuseum or anyone else.

There has been a standard lux reading taken, and posted, by a member of the CPF named Cromagnet. As I recall he got 70 Lux that was spread across the entire beam profile, and it's posted somewhere in this thread.

I too do not much care for ceiling bounce tests, either; I mentioned that there's no controlled variable to reference against in anyone's use of it, since rooms have different shapes, different colors, different objects in them that absorb and reflect light differently that produce varied results depending on setting. I fail to see what the problem is in making a comparison between the Fenix and the Ion is, though. Regardless of battery type, the Fenix is a light many people own and use, and it's reasonable to make a comparison to it since most people who own one can understand what's being said in relation to it - battery type doesn't really impact a comparison, in my opinion. :shrug:

I also fail to see what your issue is with temperature and runtime readings done on a bath towel as compared to a light cooled at ambient and a light on a metal plate. Each setting produced different temperatures and different runtimes accordingly, and the test seems valid to me, regardless of what the insulator, fan, or heat conductor used was. :shrug: The objective was to have different runtimes and different temperatures, and the objective was achieved.

As for $1.50 CR2s, those will be available, but not yet. It is logical to do a runtime on those cells since it's what will be offerred, and used, as the primary power plant of the light... However, you have missed one key point, being that the light has yet to be released. I don't buy things unless I need them - I'm not Uncle Moneybags. I simply cannot afford to buy a bunch of Rayovac CR2 cells and sit on them for the sake of a preliminary runtime. The plan has always been to do another set of runtime tests off those cells in the future, after the light has been released, but most of the people are appreciative of information prior to that time, if nothing else for a reasonable ballpark estimate.

As for temperatures in the different versions using Aluminum Bronze and Titanium, the question has been asked, but most certainly not avoided. It's rather difficult to perform such tests when those versions of the lights have not yet been produced. :shrug:

Now, in regards to being "appalled by the implication you make that anybody that likes/owns flashlights that throw won't be able to fully comprehend what the CR2 Ion is about", I've been very clear on my position in regards to that, and I don't see how it merits being "apalled" by it. Continuing with your analogy of cars, someone who has been exposed exclusively to fast cars, has researched, driven, and bought only fast cars their entire life would not understand a Toyota Prius, since they would have had no prior experience with it. As for the USL, I've no clue what it can actually do in practice, aside from what I've read from people who have used one, and seen pictures. In my experience, using a light that throws is never well illustrated in any picture, and it's always much more accurate to use the light in practice, and see it with your own eyes than making a judgment based solely on pictures or other's opinions. I've always been impressed with the Thor, Aleph III, and HD45 that I own when I first lit them up, and it has always been something that I would not have been able to visualize based on photos of beams or individual thoughts. If you can understand and visualize a flood beam, great! I do mean that with sincerity! There are many others here, however, that might not, and so my position remains the same as before.

As for the comment on controlled variables, I repeat myself: I mentioned that there's no controlled variable to reference against in anyone's use of it, since rooms have different shapes, different colors, different objects in them that absorb and reflect light differently the produce varied results depending on setting. This was specifically in reference to ceiling bounce tests, as well.

And so, simple answers to simple questions have been given. Most of them pulled out right from this thread itself, but I understand that some people might not have the time to read a 12+ page thread. As for the CR2 Ion standing on it's own, I've always felt it has, and no such "excuses" have been made as you so put it. The light is what it is, and time will tell what use it sees.

You're right, there's no question about it, I most certainly am the one producing this flashlight. This last comment of yours particularly puzzles me since I have posted its dimensions, runtimes have been provided, temperatures have been provided, and even comparisons to other lights have been done. As for your comment to somehow suggest that I've employed some form of censorship, that's a not-so-veiled attack on my integrity, and something that I feel is rather uncalled for. Both NewBie and jtice have always been free to run tests and post their results, and I've never so much as attempted to intervene, prevent, or somehow influence their objectivity.

Now, chasm22, I'm not sure what your objectives are here :thinking:, but I'm more than happy to take and answer anyone's questions. However, I do ask that you post them more respectfully, or at least, in a less inciteful tone, particularly when most everything brought up already had an answer in this thread. If you have an issue with NewBie or otherwise, as seems to be the case, please take it up elsewhere with him.

Take care.

-Enrique


----------



## NewBie (Jan 15, 2006)

chasm22 said:


> To quote Newbie from another thread;
> 
> "Do you have any spec's, like the efficiency or anything?



This light is still a prototype, and I have seen it with two different sets of electronics. I do know there are further changes electrically, that may improve the efficiency. As it is not mine to keep, I have not torn it down, in order to make a measurement.

In fact, I have asked for un-assembled electronics, such that I could make efficiency measurements. 





chasm22 said:


> Runtime Graphs with light output levels on a *linear lux scale at a specified distance*? (my emphasis)



The plots are on a linear scale. I know for a fact that my light meter is out of absolute calibration. My Thor's Hammer mod melted the light meter head at 10 feet, during some recent testing. But the relative numbers are fine, it just reads low, as I took it into work to check it. It would not be proper to measure the lux yet, until the front window glass and proper reflector surface are done, as these two items would greatly affect the reading. But, if you'd bothered to read the thread, you'd know this.

IMHO, a measurement that would be of *much* greater value, most especially for a flood light, is the amount of lumens it puts out. Unfortunately, I do not have the equipment here to perform such a test.





chasm22 said:


> Do you have beamshots sitting next to other lights in the same picture?



This is the only flood light I have seen. Since I have no other flood lights, comparisions to others would be highly improper. Can you recommend any similar class flood flashlights to do comparision shots against?





chasm22 said:


> Has anyone like Roy done a independent review on this light yet?



I don't work for Endeavor, don't live near him, nor ever met him. I have emailed him a few times, and talked with him before in chat.





chasm22 said:


> The hotwire guys have a known, pretty much lumen depreciation factor of 35% we use here on cpf, so we are looking at what, 35 lumens out the front? Has this been measured yet?



You will notice Endeavor's comments about sending it to McGizmo for measurement, if McGizmo agrees. It would not be proper to do it yet, until the front window glass and proper reflector surface are done, as these two items would greatly affect the reading. But, if you'd bothered to read the thread, you'd know this too. Hold on to your horses for a bit, okay?





chasm22 said:


> IMHO, it would be very wise to have this important information, so one would know exactly what is being purchasd, before laying out so much money."



I believe think Endeavor hasn't offered pre-payments to all these people that would like to buy this light, or offered it up for sale yet, and financed most of it out of his pocket (yikes!).





chasm22 said:


> This light has been out there for quite some time now and as of yet I haven't seen any standard lux readings. I think Newbie knows how to take them, it must have slipped his mind. Or maybe everybody has just decided to use 'new' tests for this particular light.



Again, this wouldn't be correct to do, until the light is in it's final configuration, these are only prototypes. In a flood light, I'd really believe that lumen measurements would be more important than lux measurements. Lux measurements on flashlights here on cpf are taken in the center peak spot on a spot beam. Though one could do a beam profile, for comparison, and integrate the area under the whole plot, to derrive the total amount of light comming out. Doing a profile of the two lights you are comparing would help make a better comparision for the amount of light comming out. But one could also use an integrating sphere for lumens. I do believe evan9162, jtr1962, or someone has done the beam profile to get lumen numbers before here on cpf. Since I am not being paid to do the testing, nor do I get to keep this light, I doubt I'll be doing that. As for the rest of your comments, refer to what I said earlier.





chasm22 said:


> Sorry for being a little taciturn, I'm sure this is a great little light. But I'm a little weary of the ceiling bounce tests, temp readings on terry cloth robes and how the fenix looks like a monster next to ....et al,et al. And I sure would like to know how it came to be OK to test lights against one another using different batteries? Come on, is this for real? I think we can see why Newbie himself has asked for *independent* reviews of lights, eh Newb?



You can see the runtime graphs yourself, in a much greater variety of situations, with temperature readings, than we normally get. Someone asked about the ceiling bounce, so I did a test vs. the Fenix, with NiMH and also Lithium cells. Go figure, why are you so worked up? It sure sounds like you have a problem. As the graph shows, I measured it in three different scenarios, and even monitored the temperatures, and indicated the peak temps in each case. Refer to my graph above.





chasm22 said:


> I believe the public deserves better than ceiling bounce tests and runtime graphs with the light on a terry cloth robe or whatever.



Sitting on a towel, on a plate, and with air blowing over it. Thats significantly more information than normal. Not too many lights ever get the peak temperature readings mentioned. Also remember, this is just prototype.





chasm22 said:


> I'm still not sure of how long this thing will run on high on a single $1.50 CR2. BTW, maybe you or the Newb can lead me to where I can get a Duracell Ultra CR2 for $1.50 like the one he used to produce his runtime graphs. Or better yet, maybe we could get runtime graphs made with a $1.50 CR2!! Last time I checked, Duracell Ultra's were running about double the $1.50 figure. Go figure!



Hey, I have mentioned how much it costs out of my pocket to test to the manufacturer (Endeavor), for me to do the tests. I am not being compensated for this testing, nor do I get to keep the light. In fact, twice now, I've ran down to the grocery store and paid 13.99 for a set of two cells (and I've purchased alot more cells on the way home). I can say, I've ran over a dozen CR2 cells through this light. Once whatever brand of batteries are available at a discount (whoa, 1.50ea?), or whatever brand thru whomever, I'd imagine someone would take the liberty to do a runtime test, maybe even showing runtime with various brands of cells.





chasm22 said:


> Can we get some temps of how warm the head gets during an extended runtime for each of the different materials used ie titanium, aluminum,etc? Again, it seems to me that this question has been asked and avoided with answers about how the heatsinks are all the same material, blah, blah, blah. Good enough, then the tests should all show that the temps for each different head should all be in the same general area right?



In aluminum, I have given you the numbers in three different scenarios, please see the graph below. A human hand does a great job of pulling the heat out of this light too. 











chasm22 said:


> I'm particularly appalled by the implication you make that anybody that likes/owns flashlights that throw won't be able to fully comprehend what the CR2 Ion is about. That's a little like saying that a person that likes fast cars might not be able to comprehend what Toyota has in mind with the Prius. Simpleminded me. I guess you, being an obvious lover of flood beams wouldn't understand a USL correct? Are you serious when you make a statement like, "there are many variables at work in any test and no real control"? Maybe that's why there's been a dearth of standard tests given to this light.



I guess you'd really have to understand the difference between throw and flood. In the general lighting industry, both throw and flood lights are available, and they serve quite different functions. A spot beam for throw has alot of shortcommings, as daily use of this light has made quite obvious now that I've had a chance to use it for some time now. Throw and flood have quite different purposes in reality.





chasm22 said:


> Can we just get some answers to some simple questions? The CR2 Ion should be able to stand on its own, so to speak, without excuses or explanations.



I believe I offered up alot of information, and did even more testing on the runtime tests than is normally done on a flashlight. These are only prototypes, and it will be great to see what the final production lights are capable of.

In fact, I've been testing this light on the low output mode for quite some time now. I'll post the results here for you, when it gets done.





chasm22 said:


> You're the one producing the light. You should know what's in it, it's dimensions, how long it runs, how warm it gets, and how much light it puts out amongst other things. You should be able to produce these facts in an universally recognizeable format that allows a potential purchaser to compare the light with other lights. You shouldn't pick out the items you want known and exclude the others. IMO, this is your responsibility, not mine, not Newbies, Roys or anybody elses.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> chasm22




I would suspect that he will be offering up more information, of whatever type, once the light passes the prototype stage. For all I know, it may have already, but all I have in my hands is a prototype that has known changes which will in fact make improvements on what I have tested so far.

Personally, I really would like to see the actual lumens comming out of the front of this light really are.


----------



## jtice (Jan 15, 2006)

> Originally Posted by chasm22
> Do you have beamshots sitting next to other lights in the same picture?



I would assume you have seen these beamshots I did,
Shown below...

As for them being in the SAME photo,
I dont need to do that, 
The camera is locked to the same settings for each shot,
as it should be for any beamshot,
This has been the standard here for quite some time.

The shots you see on CPF that are next to each other in one shot,
are usually by ppl that have cameras that will not lock the settings,
so they have to do it that way in order for the camera to see each light with the same settings.






~John


----------



## cy (Jan 15, 2006)

throw is way overated! spill is what you actually use the most. the only other pure flood light that I'm aware of is the original Mclux TK with mcflood reflector. Darn fine light! 

for those of us that's shined a considerable number of lights. you realize lux readings can be deceiving. 

Having EDC a CR2 light (Li14430/CR2) for close to a year. you realize anytime a tiny package uses CR2 for a source of power. your going to get compromises between runtime and brightness. Newbie's runtime chart shows outstanding regulation! one thing I never question is accuracy of Newbie's data. 

ion looks to be one SWEET TINY light!


----------



## xochi (Jan 16, 2006)

I think that it should also be pointed out that Endeavours production of this light has been pretty straight up.

*Only 50 preorder payments were taken. *I'm one of the preorders and I understand that I'm in it for the ride for better or worse. Endeavour had lists of interested folks of , IIRC , over 200 people. The run isn't limited to 50 pcs so everyone after the first 50 should have more than enough information from the preorderers to make an informed decision about wether to buy or not. If the general opinion of the lights first 50 recipients is lukewarm, Endeavour carries the burden of unsold lights. This is unlike alot of other offerings were lists and payments were compiled before production numbers were established in order to eliminate risk and ensure profit.

Endeavour is standing behind the belief that the Ion is a good design and will be found to be a valuable tool for light junkies. Endeavour is also taking a big risk in being the first to offer a Xlamp based light. We've all seen how the luxeons perform but _very _few of us can say anything about the Xlamp and even though anticipation has us craving comparisons the reality is that the Xlamp, and the Ion based on it, can *only *be judged in person.

As far as requiring Endeavour to complile a prospectus about the Ion, I think he's provided enough information without needless hype or speculation or dubious performance measurements. Endeavour made the light he wanted and thinks will be useful, he offered it at a discount to 50 of us and made it known at the outset there would be no refunds. Since this light really *isn't *in the marketing stage it is unreasonable to ask for all the information that Chasm22 believes it is Endeavours duty to provide. I can't even think of any mass produced light that provides all that info.

Perhaps I'll be thrilled when I get my Ion, perhaps I'll be dissapointed but either way I've known from the outset that there was risk involved and I got on the prepay list of my own accord.


----------



## diggdug13 (Jan 16, 2006)

Xochi,

I couldn't have said it any better if I had a dictionary. As he has indicated at the begining this is his project for a light that he thinks would be the best light for a keyring according to his needs. 

I am also one of the 50 persons on the preorder and I bought in because I know Endeavors reputation and his overwhelming need for perfection in his projects. Heck I might not like it as my keyring light, (I've got two different types of keylights comming in) but I'm sure it will be exactly what he envisioned and upto anything that I could throw at it.


Doug


----------



## chimo (Jan 16, 2006)

xochi said:


> Endeavour is also taking a big risk in being the first to offer a Xlamp based light. We've all seen how the luxeons perform but _very _few of us can say anything about the Xlamp and even though anticipation has us craving comparisons the reality is that the Xlamp, and the Ion based on it, can *only *be judged in person.



I think Endeavour has made an excellent decision in choosing in the XLamp as the emitter in this flood light. I use one for a reading light and the even beam diffusion is outstanding for this purpose.

Paul


----------



## cy (Jan 16, 2006)

xochi, very well stated!


----------



## teststrips (Jan 16, 2006)

" Endeavour made the light he wanted and thinks will be useful" - xochi
"I'm sure it will be exactly what he envisioned" - diggdug14

I think we all need to remember that endeavor never needed to release this light on such a large scale. It would have been 1 million times easier for him to simply build 2 or 3 for himself and post "look what I made - you can't have it" pictures that would make us all drool. 

I for one say "Thank you" for all the time/effort/hard work that you've put into this project + for MY chance to actually have/feel/see/buy one. I hope the flack you have gotten in this thread does not stop future projects before they even start.


----------



## StanTeate (Jan 18, 2006)

Update?


----------



## NewBie (Jan 20, 2006)

Well, some may ask, where is the runtime test you were promising.

I did start the runtime test, last Friday. I was expecting a 20 hour runtime, so I just let the logging software take one sample per second.

After a day, I started cursing Endeavor. This stupid thing kept going and going. I was lucky, as before I started the test, I stuck a new battery in the meter.

So, I asked him again, what is the expected runtime. "20 hours or so".

So I kept monitoring the CR2 Ion flashlight, throughout the next day, thinking, "what it the world is going on...."

Then comes Sunday morning, and the damn light is still $&*$# running. pfft...

Sunday evening it is still running along showing no signs of weakness. Grr...

The number of datapoints is getting really high, and Excel is complaining... So I had to fiddle with Excel 97 for awhile just to get it to take all the datapoints on the graph so far.

Monday morning, I wake up, and it is still going (I'm thinking this is becoming an Energizer bunny commercial from hell, joke is on me).

I get home from work Monday night, and the blasted light is still punching photons out the front, and I go and look at the light itself, wondering if the meter is stuck, but there it is, slightly going up and down, so it is taking measurements.

Then I have a nightmare that night about doing runtime tests that take months.

I get up for work Tuesday morning, go look at the logger, and definitely find myself feeling rather exasperated, this "short" little test is becoming a big pain in the derriere.

Wednesday morning, whoa, there it is!!! Woohoo, the output is starting to fall, it should die soon. So I'm sitting here Wednesday morning, watching the points scroll on by, and waited until the very last moment to leave for work, hoping to catch the sucker dive in real time. No dice. Grr...

Wednesday night, I come home, expecting this thing to be as dead as a doornail. *#@*&!, what, it is still running....omgosh....

I get a hold of Endeavor, and give him a hard time over this darned light from hades (trust me, this wasn't the first time I bitched at him over it). You know, I've got better things to do with my life than do runtime tests, monitoring the datalogger software, massaging Excel to make it put the bazillion datapoints all on one graph (remember I am taking datapoints once per second...) Even my wife, who has learned to be *quite* patient with me over more than one decade, is starting to wonder about my sanity, staying up late, watching these datapoints click on by...

Thursday morning, somewhere around 120 hours or so-right before punching out to head off to work, it was like the clouds had opened for the first time in years, the sunlight streaming down from on high. HECK YA!, there, it dropped!!!! What, nope, just a bump, gotta run.

Finally I get home tonight, take a look, whew, what a relief, it did continue to drop. Then it flat lined, around 8-9% and showed no signs of actually dying out on me.

Well, I finally said, heck with it (feeling a touch of insanity rearing it's ugly head), this has gone on much more than long enough, and I decided to end the test before it actually stopped producing light.


Well, after spilling my guts over the ordeal, on a runtime test that took way longer than anyone expected, and over half a million datapoints later, I suppose we are ready to see the graph.

Due to CPF rules, I am only posting a "thumbnail", since it is wider than the limit. Visit the link below the "thumbnail" to see the whole graph in something larger, if you want to read the hours.






http://www.molalla.net/~leeper/endcr212.png (some browsers auto resize the image, so you may have to zoom in to see things well).


Now, as it turns out, this light is actually delivering 12mA to the LED on low.

In some comparison testing I did last week, I noticed the CREE puts out a lot more light than a Luxeon when ran at 10mA.

In this room here, 6' by 8', I have 3 100W bulbs, and let me assure you that my eyes are definitely not night adapted. Opening the door to the garage, shutting the door behind me, I can point the light in the garage and see all over the garage with no problems at all, and even look around, reading labels on cans from six feet away. As my eyes adapt, I find that I have more than plenty of light to definitely see around the garage.

I know some folks feel this light should be ran at 30mA, and as I understand it, Endeavor decided to make the released lights do 30mA. In my personal opinion, 30mA is way too much, and would definitely ruin my "night vision". Though the fix for this issue is as simple as a finger over the bezel, blocking off most the light. Now you have a multi-brightness light (pretty easy to do with this sub-finger sized flashlight).

I'd expect the 30mA lights to have 1/3 the runtime that this prototype here has.

Not bad for a tiny light with a little itty bitty CR2 cell, and taking advantage of the substantially higher lm/W numbers when you under drive the LED with a low current, really paid off. You wouldn't get this gain with PWM dimming.


----------



## diggdug13 (Jan 20, 2006)

WOOOO


very nice test and comic strip (I needed a good laugh in the morning :laughing: ). This little light is AMAZING and as I said before "I'm sure it will be exactly what he envisioned" and boy does he envision in vivid color....120+ hours on low.. with a CR2..... 

doug like......doug like ALOT...... :rock: 


Doug


----------



## xochi (Jan 20, 2006)

Thanks Newbie! Incredible and _meaningful _test.

If I can , I'd like to make a suggestion reguarding the Ions shipping configuration. Just so that the Ion will score well in another not so meaningful test, perhaps Endeavour should collect another 3 or 4 dollars from us so that a laser pointer could be taped to the side of it.

The anticipation for this light just got so bad I'm blowing neurons.


----------



## Frenchyled (Jan 20, 2006)

A really awaited flashlight  
But....I'm still waiting, because it's a real pleasure :nana:


----------



## Zman (Jan 20, 2006)

Doug-
Keep in mind the 120+ hours was on the prototypes using 12ma for low. The ones we will be receiving will be at 30ma for low, and Newbie estimates 1/3 of that time...which is still not too shabby!


----------



## Kiessling (Jan 20, 2006)

NewBie ...  ... nice graph.

Will the production version really be 30mA?

bernie


----------



## NewBie (Jan 21, 2006)

Tried another brand of cell today:


----------



## Lucien (Jan 21, 2006)

WOW! 120 hrs. That's some crazy runtime. Even given that the production version will run about 1/3 the time, that's still very impressive.

My apologies to NewBie, but:
120 hrs of data logging! :hahaha:  

Seriously though, for all the work you've been doing there, :thanks: from all of us.

Then last night, I did some thinking, and that's some crazy runtime.

Assuming a 12 mA draw on the battery, and it runs for 120 hrs, thats 1440 mAH battery capacity. And if that 12 mA is through the LED, there's a larger draw on the battery because the voltage has to be boosted, and the converter can't be 100% efficient.

But CR2 cells have about 700 mAH capacity, IIRC. Granted, that figure is probably down to some voltage, whereas in this test they're being sucked dry, but the figures don't add up.

Obviously I'm not disputing NewBie's results. Even if you're 10% off in your measurements (and I'd never believe you could be) that's still a heck of a long time at the datalogger. So I've got to be missing something, somewhere. :thinking: So what gives?


----------



## Amadeus93 (Jan 21, 2006)

Am I crazy, or do your runtime graphs say that it takes 122 hours to get to 20% with the Duracell Ultra, but only 82 *minutes* on the Rayovac?


----------



## FRANKVZ (Jan 21, 2006)

I believe the second graph is with the Ion on high.


----------



## chimo (Jan 21, 2006)

Lucien said:


> Assuming a 12 mA draw on the battery, and it runs for 120 hrs, thats 1440 mAH battery capacity. And if that 12 mA is through the LED, there's a larger draw on the battery because the voltage has to be boosted, and the converter can't be 100% efficient.
> 
> But CR2 cells have about 700 mAH capacity, IIRC. Granted, that figure is probably down to some voltage, whereas in this test they're being sucked dry, but the figures don't add up.
> 
> Obviously I'm not disputing NewBie's results. Even if you're 10% off in your measurements (and I'd never believe you could be) that's still a heck of a long time at the datalogger. So I've got to be missing something, somewhere. :thinking: So what gives?



Something to consider is the Vf of the Cree is probably only around 2.7V at 12mA so the circuit would not have to boost. It could be running more or less in a direct drive mode with lower circuit losses. If it is running direct drive through an inductor, the I^2R losses would be very low at that current. 

Another thing to consider is that the load current (on low) is much less than the current at which the battery was rated. That will result in lower internal resistance lossed in the battery, so you could expect a higher capacity at that load current. Energizer rates their CR2 at 34 hrs to a 2V cutoff on a 100 ohm load. A 100 ohm load is equates to roughly a 30mA current, so that puts Newbie's prediction pretty bang on.

Paul


----------



## cy (Jan 21, 2006)

with 120 hr runtime, could make an excellent survival light!
bumped to 30 milliamps would stilll be aprox. 40 hours. carry a few extra primary cells and ion would be an excellent candidate for ultra light backpacking light. 

can we change sense resisters to dial in current desired?


----------



## Endeavour (Jan 21, 2006)

In regards to low mode runtime:

The battery becomes more efficient at lower loads, and the LED forward voltage drops (explaining the initial sloped curve before dropping down into a more regulated state). Once the battery voltage becomes less than the forward voltage of the LED it goes into boost mode. Batteries mAH capacities are rated for a certain load. The lesser the load, the more efficient the battery at these low currents.

If you take a look at page two of the Duracell battery datasheet (which was used in the test) here: http://www.duracell.com/oem/Pdf/CR2.pdf , you'll notice that the service hours they rate their batteries for at 10mA is ~100 hours, down to 2 volts. The Ion sucks the cell drier than that.

It should be noted that this only happens at rather low current draws, though. Once you start exceeding 100mA the cell's service hours start dropping very quick.

As for updates, everything is still moving right along. I've got nothing in particular to report for a little while yet. As always I'll keep you all posted.

-Enrique


----------



## wasBlinded (Jan 21, 2006)

That initial 5% drop in output over the first 10 minutes on high is probably due to reduced LED efficiency as the light heats up. If we were looking at a current draw plot, we might see a very similar initial sag over the same period, which could be attributed to the Vf of the LED dropping as the light warms up.


----------



## xochi (Jan 21, 2006)

Endeavour said:


> i
> 
> As for updates, everything is still moving right along. I've got nothing in particular to report for a little while yet. As always I'll keep you all posted.
> 
> -Enrique



:green::duh2::hairpull::mecry:


----------



## Lucien (Jan 22, 2006)

Endeavour said:


> If you take a look at page two of the Duracell battery datasheet (which was used in the test) here: http://www.duracell.com/oem/Pdf/CR2.pdf , you'll notice that the service hours they rate their batteries for at 10mA is ~100 hours, down to 2 volts. The Ion sucks the cell drier than that.



DOH! Should have read the datasheets instead of relying on my spotty memory then...  

But impressive all the same. :rock: 

er, so what is the Vf of the CREE at 10 ma and 30 ma? Is it in direct drive at any time?


----------



## Billson (Jan 22, 2006)

Newbie,

You ran the Duracell test under 3 conditions. Which condition was the Rayovac run under?

Thanks.


----------



## pokkuhlag (Jan 23, 2006)

It says on plate in the graph, that probably means uncooled on plate.


----------



## Lightedge (Jan 23, 2006)

My birthdays in a week. Do you think I will be able to give myself any great presents, if you know what I mean? :naughty:


----------



## xochi (Jan 26, 2006)

Hey Enrique,

I know your policy is to update when there is stuff to update but I'll ask anyway. Have the remaining parts arrived that were expected 'later in jan'?

I'm just feeling a bit antsy since I'm currently recovering from shoulder surgery and can't work so I've got WAY too much time on my hands. I also didn't want to see this topic slip from page 1.


Apologies in advance to those who hurriedly clicked on the newly emboldened Cr2 Ion thread hoping to see more than my dumb little post


----------



## flashlight (Jan 26, 2006)

xochi said:


> Hey Enrique,
> 
> I know your policy is to update when there is stuff to update but I'll ask anyway. Have the remaining parts arrived that were expected 'later in jan'?
> 
> ...



xochi, get well soon, and get away from the keyboard...


----------



## Endeavour (Jan 26, 2006)

Xochi & everyone else,

I've been _very_ busy with this project along with the rest of what life demands.

I've plans to make a major update next week with information I think most of you will be very pleased to hear. 

Until then, patience, Jedi. 

-Enrique


----------



## Dr_Joe (Jan 29, 2006)




----------



## Lightedge (Jan 30, 2006)

Shhhhhhhh  ...you can cut the tension with a knife around here.


----------



## colubrid (Jan 30, 2006)




----------



## Radio (Jan 31, 2006)




----------



## bmstrong (Jan 31, 2006)

You're chanting, Ray:

Titanium! Titanium! Titanium!


----------



## teststrips (Jan 31, 2006)

yet another time I come to this thread hoping for something new, and of course am disappointed.


----------



## dduane (Feb 1, 2006)

By posting, I'm making sure I can contact you, inorder to buy ion when it's available. THANKS, Duane


----------



## xochi (Feb 2, 2006)

Are we there yet????


----------



## ibcj (Feb 2, 2006)

xochi said:


> Are we there yet????



It's only Thursday, and I think Endeavor said "next week".  

That doesn't mean that I haven't been checking this thread everyday, several times a day. But hey, I've been doing that for months. Can't wait for this one. :rock:


----------



## Endeavour (Feb 4, 2006)

Hey Folks,

The week is up, and I’ve got good news.

No, I did not just save a bunch of money by switching to Geico, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. Both of those have been trumped.

All the parts for the first set of production CR2 Ions have arrived and the lamps will begin being built shortly after this post. I’ll snap a few pictures and post them later on tonight.

The quality of the parts is amazing, the work done on these exceeded the already very good work done on the prototypes. The anodizing is excellent and extends into the internal area of the case, the chemkote is great, no complaints whatsoever.

I’m very impressed with the aluminum bronze and titanium parts, particularly the titanium, as I’ve never had the opportunity to handle a metal like this before. Both of the versions turned out quite nice, and I’ll be posting pictures of a couple of those fully built up later in the evening.

As it stands, I’m still waiting on the natural, red, green, and blue colored parts.I waited to have both the cases and bezels anodized at the same time for proper color matching across all the parts to ensure a uniform look. I’ll be getting those in within the next week or two, barring any unexpected difficulties in the process, and they’ll ship to the preorder folks as soon as they’re built.

I’m also waiting on the batteries that will come installed with the light. Those will arrive later this week. I opted to use Battery Station brand cells, since the Rayovacs I was planning on purchasing increased in price by a factor of two, and don’t have that significant of an advantage over the other cells. I’m also not interested in going into the battery business myself, and kindly suggest that those who were planning on getting some CR2 batteries from me head over to batterystation.com and pick up a pack of 10 or 20 for use with the Ions.

I will be shipping out black, aluminum-bronze and titanium lamps as soon as the batteries arrive and the other colors will follow shortly thereafter.

Well, it’s time I got to work on these. The final leg of the project has been reached and people’s paths will begin to be lit by light of Ion in very short order. I’ll be starting a new thread tonight at around 6PM Central Time with pictures and all the final details, and opening up for general orders – I’ll post a link to the new thread here, please stay tuned until then.

Take care folks!

-Enrique


----------



## colubrid (Feb 4, 2006)

*sits with finger on paypal*


----------



## Lightedge (Feb 4, 2006)

You don't need to hold anything up just for batteries for me. I can pay a couple of bucks shipping and get some from anywhere. CR2 Ion's are pretty hard to find!

All sounds great! Thanks for the update.


----------



## diggdug13 (Feb 4, 2006)

Lightedge said:


> You don't need to hold anything up just for batteries for me. I can pay a couple of bucks shipping and get some from anywhere. CR2 Ion's are pretty hard to find!
> 
> All sounds great! Thanks for the update.



Yep same here, I've already got a bunch of CR2 batteries lying in wait for this light. Keep up the wonderful work 

Doug


----------



## powernoodle (Feb 4, 2006)

Hows output on high compared to a JIL 1.3W? 

thx


----------



## Endeavour (Feb 4, 2006)

Folks,

I'm very busy building these lights still and will post the aforementioned thread later tonight. I've not had a chance to take photos of the process, but things are shaping up great, I'll be back later on tonight.

-Enrique


----------



## NewBie (Feb 4, 2006)

Okay, it is nearly bed time....

I'm really curious to see a picture of the released product, instead of prototypes.


----------



## marcspar (Feb 4, 2006)

Enrique,

May I still update my pre-order to a Aluminum Bronze model by paypaling the difference?

Thanks,

Marc


----------



## Endeavour (Feb 5, 2006)

Marc,

Sure, that's fine. 

Folks, I've been working on this project all day today and am beat. Here's the new post: https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/1260067

Let's continue the discussion of the Ion over there, and if any mods/admins come across this, please lock this thread up.

Thanks folks. Take care.

-Enrique


----------



## Kiessling (Feb 5, 2006)

Locked per request.


----------

