# Your honest opinion on SF M6? (Part 2)



## Sigman (Jul 14, 2008)

...continued from here.


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## Solscud007 (Jul 14, 2008)

So for those using Rechargeable 123, im guessing at 3.7v, for the LF HO-M6R; how do you charge so many batteries? just take turns? so three sets of pairs? or do you guys just have a bunch of chargers so you can charge all the batteries at the same time?


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## Illum (Jul 14, 2008)

Solscud007 said:


> So for those using Rechargeable 123, im guessing at 3.7v, for the LF HO-M6R; how do you charge so many batteries? just take turns? so three sets of pairs? or do you guys just have a bunch of chargers so you can charge all the batteries at the same time?


 
3 DSD chargers from lighthound usually does it. since DSDs charge these cells at approx 250ma per cell...expect some waiting time. 

I have two DSDs, they seem to be adquate. Unless you've completely drained the RCR123As to nothing usually a few hours of sitting after discharge won't hurt...especially if theres a long line of cells waiting to be juiced in front

GreenLED, were you using new batteries at the time of this phonmenon?
I'm not sure as to whether theres a self-discharge issue in my M6 but I do notice that every time I have to use the M6 with primaries I would have a dramatic cell imbalance situation on my hands where usually 4 out of 6 will register around 20% to [no click] on the ZTS while 2 [sometimes 1] will register 80%-100% no matter how many times I check it. Could this be the apparent reason your cells "seem" to self discharge?


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## greenLED (Jul 14, 2008)

Illum_the_nation said:


> GreenLED, were you using new batteries at the time of this phonmenon?
> I'm not sure as to whether theres a self-discharge issue in my M6 but I do notice that every time I have to use the M6 with primaries I would have a dramatic cell imbalance situation on my hands where usually 4 out of 6 will register around 20% to [no click] on the ZTS while 2 [sometimes 1] will register 80%-100% no matter how many times I check it. Could this be the apparent reason your cells "seem" to self discharge?



Yeah, they were fresh Vartas (at least at the time I put them in the light). I remember playing with the M6 here and there, but not more than 5-10 minutes at the most. I then put the light in storage (locked out), and yesterday when I turn it on, it was dim. 


Edit to add:
I just read the replies in the old thread. Sounds like a fluke - maybe a bad batch of cells?  Unfortunately I don't have a batt tester to know if one or more cells went south.


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## JNewell (Jul 14, 2008)

I guess I had the last post before the Part 1 thread got locked - wanted to mention that my M6 does not self-discharge but I have a C2 that does. Haven't figured out whether it's the LA or something else - but it does it with the LOTC locked out...


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## jumpstat (Jul 15, 2008)

Best production light from SF for power, design and useability period. Cons is just expensive to maintain (battery costs). 

Using 3rd party bulbs and/or rechargeable options don't come close to M6 with MN21.....my 0.002 cents.


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## Jarl (Jul 15, 2008)

hmm? I've seen an M6 with 2 AW C cells and a 5761 (IIRC) which the owner reckoned was brighter than the MN21.

Very similar to this but in an M6 body.


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## Daniel_sk (Jul 15, 2008)

A M6 running on three 17670 li-ion cells (Fivemega adapter) with a WA1185 bulb has about 1200 lumens for 20-25 minutes. Quite a bit brighter than MN21, comparable runtime and guilty-free lumens. No extensions needed. 
The downside might be a shorter bulb life - 10-12 hours, but at $6/bulb it's cheap.

I am just completing this setup.


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## mwaldron (Jul 15, 2008)

jumpstat said:


> Using 3rd party bulbs and/or rechargeable options don't come close to M6 with MN21.....my 0.002 cents.



I'm curious if you have tried the 6xRCR123's with the LF HO-M6R bulb? I'm investigating all sorts of options for my M6 and that one looks to be (spec wise, I don't have any yet) about exactly equal to the MN21. It's 700 bulb lumens, figure a 30% reduction to convert to SF lumens puts you at 490. It should be just about indistinguishable from the MN21. 

I'm in the process of acquiring all sorts of options so I can determine what my personal "favorite" M6 is. I have a feeling I'll probably settle on primaries and the 2x18650 holder currently under development, but I'm also planning to check out the WA1185 on 3x17670's, the MN61 on 3x17670's and possibly the HO-M6R on RCR123's.. So many options, so few M6's and so little $$.


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## Daniel_sk (Jul 15, 2008)

mwaldron said:


> possibly the HO-M6R on RCR123's..


You can use 3x 17670 li-ions to power this setup. Same output but more runtime and less cells to charge.
The brightness of HO-M6R should be somewhere between MN20 and MN21.


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## Patriot (Jul 15, 2008)

Jarl said:


> hmm? I've seen an M6 with 2 AW C cells and a 5761 (IIRC) which the owner reckoned was brighter than the MN21.
> 
> Very similar to this but in an M6 body.





It would be brighter than the MN21 for sure....  That lamp is definitely giving those batteries a work out though. I might be close to tripping the protection circuit of the C cells.


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## Patriot (Jul 15, 2008)

mwaldron said:


> I'm curious if you have tried the 6xRCR123's with the LF HO-M6R bulb? I'm investigating all sorts of options for my M6 and that one looks to be (spec wise, I don't have any yet) about exactly equal to the MN21. It's 700 bulb lumens, figure a 30% reduction to convert to SF lumens puts you at 490. It should be just about indistinguishable from the MN21.




I used to actually think the LF HO-M6R was a little bit brighter but of course I was wrong. The M6 that I have that bulb in had a shinier reflector with less texture so it was throwing farther. The overall output definitely goes to the MN21 though, which was evident when I switched bulbs and didn't shine the light so far. The MN21 on fresh primaries is probably closer to 750 lumens (500 is an average) so that has to be factored in as well as the different rating systems. 

The advantage to the LF set up is the extended runtime about 35-40 minutes and of course guilt free lumens.




> *jumpstat*
> Using 3rd party bulbs and/or rechargeable options don't come close to M6 with MN21.....my 0.002 cents.


You mean with regards to reliability and such? Output wise the 1185 and 5761 are both impressive. The 1111 is respectable too.


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## mwaldron (Jul 15, 2008)

I scored a FM 3x17670 holder on CPFM today, and I got a bi-pin adapter directly (x2 actually, just in case!) from FM last week so I'll defiantly be trying out the 1185 for WOW factor. 
I never thought I'd find a 17670 holder... 

Now I need to look into a long-runtime option, maybe a 1331 with the 3x17670 or a MN15 with 2x18650 (or god forbid actual primaries!). Decisions Decisions Decisions!


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## ttran97 (Jul 16, 2008)

mwaldron said:


> I scored a FM 3x17670 holder on CPFM today, and I got a bi-pin adapter directly (x2 actually, just in case!) from FM last week so I'll defiantly be trying out the 1185 for WOW factor.
> I never thought I'd find a 17670 holder...
> 
> Now I need to look into a long-runtime option, maybe a 1331 with the 3x17670 or a MN15 with 2x18650 (or god forbid actual primaries!). Decisions Decisions Decisions!



If you want really long runtime, you should contact milkyspit about getting an LED tower module. 5.5 hours of light (roughly 200 lumen) using 6 primaries. Wow! 

Chronos' milkyspit LED tower thread


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## Illum (Jul 16, 2008)

Patriot36 said:


> You mean with regards to reliability and such? Output wise the 1185 and 5761 are both impressive. The 1111 is respectable too.


 
The other disadvantage would be the theretical voiding of surefire repair warranty should a 3rd party lamp detonate due to failed envelope integrity in the bezel, thankfully incandescents such as M6 has no electronics to fry from overhead voltages using lithium so there should be little attainable evidence aside from the blown lamp Surefire can use to tell if lithium ions have been used in operation with the light. 

Jumpstat, There has been many threads that asks the question: how bright exactly is the MN21 on high? I believe the MN21 might be outputting close to 1000 Lumens on new primaries. The LF-HO-M6R can easily attain beyond the MN21 on occiasions [I dont normally notice this increase while performing outdoor shots. As for indoors, I can only say the LF-HO-M6R has a slightly bigger hotspot.


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## adamlau (Jul 18, 2008)

jumpstat said:


> Using 3rd party bulbs and/or rechargeable options don't come close to M6 with MN21.....my 0.002 cents.


This is clearly not the case. In terms of output, an M6 + 1111 off 3x17670 takes out an M6 + MN21 off primaries. An M6 + MN61 off 3x17670 beats up on an M6 + MN21 off primaries, as does an M6 + 1185 off 3x17670. In the case of the 1111 and 1185 (and of course, the MN61), shock isolation is retained to some degree.


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## Outdoors Fanatic (Jul 18, 2008)

Solscud007 said:


> So for those using Rechargeable 123, im guessing at 3.7v, for the LF HO-M6R; how do you charge so many batteries? just take turns? so three sets of pairs? or do you guys just have a bunch of chargers so you can charge all the batteries at the same time?


Just get a R/C Lipo Charger from Tower Hobbies and charge of a bunch a li-ions simultaniously. www.towerhobbies.com


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## js (Jul 18, 2008)

greenLED,

If you have a DMM you can check the resistance of your MB20 battery holder. Remove all the cells and put your probes across the holder. You should read megaOhms of resistance. If you read kOhms, then your holder has got an internal short. Make sure not to hold the probes by the plastic handles, BTW. Don't want to add your conductivity in the mix.

Otherwise, I think the most likely explanation is a bad batch of 123's that decided to self-discharge and give up the ghost.


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## greenLED (Jul 18, 2008)

js said:


> greenLED,
> 
> If you have a DMM you can check the resistance of your MB20 battery holder. Remove all the cells and put your probes across the holder. You should read megaOhms of resistance. If you read kOhms, then your holder has got an internal short. Make sure not to hold the probes by the plastic handles, BTW. Don't want to add your conductivity in the mix.
> 
> Otherwise, I think the most likely explanation is a bad batch of 123's that decided to self-discharge and give up the ghost.



:thanks: Jim! I'll be checking and reporting back.


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## mwaldron (Jul 19, 2008)

My M6 arrived Thursday, but I didn't get to play with it till last night. I took it outside and aimed it at a tree a few yards away (I live in the city) and pushed the button and...:mecry:I was underwhelmed. 

I took it back inside and took out the lamp, sure enough it was the MN21. I put the MN20 in there thinking maybe the lamp was old and went back outside. Same beam.:thinking:

Turns out it really does help quite a bit if you use batteries that aren't at 2.3V/cell unloaded. Upon installing new batteries I was greeted by a powerful burst of photons that nearly knocked me backwards into the street! Now that's what I was looking for!

I can't wait to see this once I get the 1185 and 17670 combo running.  I'm going to need to buy some more 123's... My "comfortable" inventory level when all I had were 2x cell lights was 36. That's just not going to cut it should there be an emergency with this beast in my hand...


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## EV_007 (Jul 19, 2008)

Dang it, now I want a guilt free M6 option that is brighter than the HOLA.

You guys are all a bad influence. 

I keep telling myself, no more lights, .. oh maybe just one more accessory here and there...


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## mwaldron (Jul 19, 2008)

I was planning on feeding my M6 primaries and using MN15 for most of it's use. 

I was really lucky to be able to get a 3x17670 holder for it. My first use will me with an MN61, then I'll move towards the 1185.

Guilt free M6 will be awesome, I can't wait... Just goes to show keep a close eye on CPFM and you can get there. 

Also make sure to show some interested in this thread for another interesting option for guilt free M6.


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## ToeMoss (Jul 26, 2008)

mwaldron said:


> I was really lucky to be able to get a 3x17670 holder for it....



fivemega may be offering them soon if interest is high enough.
See https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/203705


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## jumpstat (Jul 27, 2008)

adamlau said:


> This is clearly not the case. In terms of output, an M6 + 1111 off 3x17670 takes out an M6 + MN21 off primaries. An M6 + MN61 off 3x17670 beats up on an M6 + MN21 off primaries, as does an M6 + 1185 off 3x17670. In the case of the 1111 and 1185 (and of course, the MN61), shock isolation is retained to some degree.


Yes you are right. I saw your thread and beamshots and I do have to agree that the WA1185/1111 is a formidable setup.

I have also roughly calculated the costs for the following:-

I am assuming 30% loss of output due to reflector, window, etc from bulb lumens.
All setup using rechargeables.

LF HO-M6R around 7.25 lmn/$ (With 6xR123a) around 490lumens
WA1185 around 6.12 lmn/$ around 860 lumens.
LF HO-M6R around 4.47 lmn/$ (With 3xP17670) around 490lumens
WA1111 around 4.22 lmn/$ around 610 lumens.
Led Tower (yclo) around 1.12 lmn/$ around 200 lumens.

From the above it is obvious that WA1185 setup with increase brightness with 20-25runtime would be ideal option for cost and output. Although the more cost effective would be using LF HO-M6R but no brighter than the MN21/primaries. Furthermore WA1185 uses 3 batts and the bulb is cheaper @$5 is still cheaper than WA1111 @$9, [email protected]$27 & [email protected]$30. The trouble with going the WA1185 way is that one needs the Bi Pin socket, 3x17670 batt holder and 17650 batts plus the setting up of the bulbs on the socket for proper focus may prove a hindrance to some. :sigh::thinking:

A led tower with a single led given driven at >1amp regulated would not produce much desired lumens compared to incans and also cost higher per $ but then its a led, and its regulated giving sustainable performance with longer runtime and much much longer life expectancy.

So the option is up to the individual, Every setup have its pros and cons.


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## neoseikan (Jul 27, 2008)

Solscud007 said:


> So for those using Rechargeable 123, im guessing at 3.7v, for the LF HO-M6R; how do you charge so many batteries? just take turns? so three sets of pairs? or do you guys just have a bunch of chargers so you can charge all the batteries at the same time?


I have many many chargers.
But some of them can not charge batteries to 4.2V.
So that, I hope our engineer can built a super charger for me.


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## BSBG (Jul 27, 2008)

adamlau said:


> This is clearly not the case. In terms of output, an M6 + 1111 off 3x17670 takes out an M6 + MN21 off primaries. An M6 + MN61 off 3x17670 beats up on an M6 + MN21 off primaries, as does an M6 + 1185 off 3x17670. In the case of the 1111 and 1185 (and of course, the MN61), shock isolation is retained to some degree.



Just to clarify, a WA 1111 will flash on 3x 17670. Run it on 2 Cs or 18650s however, and it is in its glory, equalling the MN21 to my eyes.


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## BSBG (Jul 27, 2008)

jumpstat said:


> cheaper than WA1111 @$9,



Another alternative is the Osram 64250 - slightly greater output, but one third the cost .


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## jumpstat (Jul 27, 2008)

BSBG said:


> Another alternative is the Osram 64250 - slightly greater output, but one third the cost .


Ahh...thanks for the tip.


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## Illum (Jul 27, 2008)

mwaldron said:


> Turns out it really does help quite a bit if you use batteries that aren't at 2.3V/cell unloaded.



hmm, surefire shipping lights with used batteries is new to me...was this a new light or a used, off-BST light?



BSBG said:


> Just to clarify, a WA 1111 will flash on 3x 17670. Run it on 2 Cs or 18650s however, and it is in its glory, equalling the MN21 to my eyes.



we're hoping pretty soon that mdocod or someone can make a 2x18500 holder for the M6, as of yet I see no real use for it
Is it possible to run WA1111 on 2x17670? if so, just slap 2 cr123A spacers in the FM holder and you'll be set. 

17670 @ 2C = 3.2A



BSBG said:


> Another alternative is the Osram 64250 - slightly greater output, but one third the cost .




http://www.bulbconnection.com/ViewItem/bcrw/itmid/126/oc/64250 HLX/item.html
Wow... $3?! my goodness, this + FM's holder will surely put the MN21 out of business


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## BSBG (Jul 27, 2008)

Illum_the_nation said:


> we're hoping pretty soon that mdocod or someone can make a 2x18500 holder for the M6, as of yet I see no real use for it
> Is it possible to run WA1111 on 2x17670? if so, just slap 2 cr123A spacers in the FM holder and you'll be set.
> 
> 17670 @ 2C = 3.2A
> ...



You could run the 64250 or 1111 on 2 17670s, but if you have the 3x holder for your M6 you should just run an 1185 and be done with it :devil:. It is a nice option in an M4 though, but you are pushing the limit of the cells - 3.8 amps or so required per luxluthor's measurements. 

Yah, $3 from bulb connection.com :thumbsup:. See luxluthor's destructive testing thread for more info and to compare to the 1111:

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/179748


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## Solscud007 (Jul 28, 2008)

Just to point out. for cosmetic purposes, Im trying to get RPM to make Porcupine looking CB for the M6 or M3. please post in the poll I put up in the custom section.


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## Solscud007 (Jul 28, 2008)

BSBG said:


> Another alternative is the Osram 64250 - slightly greater output, but one third the cost .




has anyone actually got one to work in their M6?


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## DM51 (Jul 28, 2008)

If you could get a 64250 to fit through the hole in the reflector (I tried with 3 and they won't go) the performance would be pretty much the same as the WA 1111.

If you were lucky in getting some from a batch that was made slightly smaller, or if you were very skilled with a dremel grinder and managed to shave down the sides of the glass envelope, you would be able to try it.


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## brunt_sp (Jul 29, 2008)

This is to confirm that a presale thread for 3X17650 holders is up and running :
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/203705

This means guilt-free lumens for MN61, MN60, LF HO-M6R and WA1185.


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## BSBG (Jul 29, 2008)

Solscud007 said:


> has anyone actually got one to work in their M6?



I have, that's why I posted it .

I cannot get a 5761 to fit in the reflector, though others have.


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## DM51 (Jul 29, 2008)

BSBG said:


> I have, that's why I posted it .
> 
> I cannot get a 5761 to fit in the reflector, though others have.


You and I have opposite experiences - my 5761s DO fit (although I don't recommend the 5761 for the M6).

I think this demonstrates that both these bulbs are touch and go as to whether or not they will fit. There are obviously variations in batch sizes, and it will be the luck of the draw.


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## Solscud007 (Aug 5, 2008)

Hey guys, Do you think $165 is worth it for a KL6 head? im seriously thinking of getting one for my M6 aka "tactical light saber"


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## jumpstat (Aug 5, 2008)

Solscud007 said:


> Hey guys, Do you think $165 is worth it for a KL6 head? im seriously thinking of getting one for my M6 aka "tactical light saber"


I am assuming that you are referring to the KL6 standard lux head? I have owned before a KL6 but the lux version (standard) is not that bright. 100 lumens maybe. A modded one would be better IMO. There is one in MP selling like $130 and with a cree R2 led you can find *here.*. FYI the standard KL6 is driven at 700mA.

Personally, If I wanted a led, I would opt for the turbo head led tower module recently sold by cpfer yclo.....my 0.02cents.


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## Patriot (Aug 5, 2008)

Solscud007 said:


> Hey guys, Do you think $165 is worth it for a KL6 head? im seriously thinking of getting one for my M6 aka "tactical light saber"




I wouldn't purchase one for that much myself. I would pick a used one and mod it or get one that's already been modded. Typically they're under $165 through the Marketplace when they show up.


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