# FDA warning letter to Wicked Lasers, dated 1/12/06



## jellyfish414 (Feb 4, 2006)

I searched for "Wicked Lasers" on the FDA's site and here's the first thing that came up:

Warning Letter 

It's pretty long, but read carefully if you're in the U.S. and considering buying from Wicked Lasers:

"Under section 531(3) of the Act (21 U.S .C. 360hh(3)), a manufacturer includes any person engaged in the business of manufacturing, assembling or importing electronic products. Thus, in cases where a foreign manufacturer fails to respond, penalties may be imposed upon a person who imports the electronic products. We may commence regulatory action without giving you any additional notice."

So if WL can't prove their lasers are legal in the U.S., YOU, as the customer can be penalized!

The FDA gives WL 15 days to respond. It's now past the deadline. Given the number of WL customers on this board who could potentially be affected, I think a public statement by WL is in order. Can anyone from WL speak in detail to what the response has been?

(quickly buries 75mw Phoenix in the backyard)


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## That_Guy (Feb 4, 2006)

I posted that on Wicked's forums earlier today, and was banned a few minutes later.


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## jellyfish414 (Feb 4, 2006)

After reading the warning letter more clearly, it appears WL is required to:

1) Supply the FDA with records of all lasers leaving their facility (i.e. your name and your address if you are a WL customer!!)

2) Do one of the following:

a) Tell the FDA why their products are legal. That means telling the FDA "we're right and you're wrong" a claim that's not likely to be believed.

b) Tell the FDA why the laws governing lasers should not apply to them. I don't know why they would be exempt from any laws.

c) Notify customers of the illegal lasers and repair (de-modify) replace (with 5mW lasers) or issue refunds. If they do admit their lasers are in fact not legal they are subject to a $1000 fine per violation with a maximum fine of $300,000. That means for every laser they've sold, they could be penalized $1000!

If WL does not respond, the FDA can start penalizing WL customers without further notice to WL. And, oh yeah, WL has not submitted anything to the FDA in the past, so their history is one of non-response.

It seems to me that WL is done for in the USA and there will be major fines for what they've been doing. And if they don't step up to pay them, the FDA could seek out WL's customers to collect them.

THIS IS MESSED UP! WICKED LASERS, PLEASE RESPOND!


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## jellyfish414 (Feb 4, 2006)

One more thing: it appears as though Wicked Lasers has been banned from this forum. Can his account be reinstated in order to allow a response?


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## comozo (Feb 4, 2006)

This is copied text and will explain why WL product is not legal to sell or import into the USA.
link http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/radhlth/lpm.html

Important Information for Laser Pointer Manufacturers
What is the purpose of this document?
This document interprets FDA regulatory requirements as they apply to laser pointers, explains the power limits for these products, and the applicable requirements for information for safe use and for promotional materials. The document also discusses inappropriate use of high-powered, battery-operated, portable lasers. 
How are laser products classified? 
Lasers are generally classified according to the hazard posed by the amount and type of light they emit. Hazard classes range from Class I to IV with Class I lasers being non-hazardous and Class IV lasers being the most hazardous. 
Class I products include laser printers and CD players where the laser radiation is usually contained within the product. Products exceeding Class I permit access to some amount of laser radiation. 
Class II and IIa products include bar code scanners. 
Class IIIa products include laser pointers. 
Class IIIb and IV products include laser light shows, industrial lasers, research lasers. 
For more information, see the Radiation Products page </cdrh/comp/rad_nonion_products.html> on our web site. 
What is a laser pointer? 
Laser pointers are hand-held lasers that are promoted for pointing out objects or locations. Such laser products can meet one of two definitions for laser products. The first is for “surveying, leveling, and alignment laser products” as defined by Title 21 of the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Section 1040.10(b)(39): 
“Surveying, leveling, or alignment laser product means a laser product manufactured, designed, intended or promoted for one or more of the following uses: 
(i) Determining and delineating the form, extent, or position of a point, body, or area by taking angular measurement. 
(ii) Positioning or adjusting parts in proper relation to one another. 
(iii) Defining a plane, level, elevation, or straight line.” 
Hand-held lasers promoted for entertainment purposes or amusement also meet the second definition, that of “demonstration laser products” as defined by 21 CFR 1040.10(b)(13): 
“Demonstration laser product means a laser product manufactured, designed, intended, or promoted for purposes of demonstration, entertainment, advertising display, or artistic composition.” 
If a laser product is promoted for pointing purposes, either of these definitions can apply. 
Does FDA have a mandatory limit on the power emitted by laser pointers? 
Yes. Laser products promoted for pointing and demonstration purposes are limited to hazard Class IIIa by FDA regulation. 
21 CFR 1040.11(b) and 1040.11(c), limit surveying, leveling, and alignment, and demonstration laser products to Class IIIa. This means that pointers are limited to 5 milliwatts output power in the visible wavelength range from 400 to 710 nanometers. There are also limits for any invisible wavelengths and for short pulses. Pointers may not exceed the accessible emission limits of CDRH Class IIIa or IEC1 Class 3R. 
Are Class IIIa laser pointers dangerous? 
Class IIIa or IEC Class 3R lasers can be dangerous. Class IIIa lasers can cause temporary visual effects such as flash blinding, which could distract or startle the person exposed. The risk of injury is very small when Class IIIa pointers are used responsibly because natural body motion of a person holding the pointer or motion of a person who might be exposed makes it difficult to expose the eyes for a long period of time. People also have a natural aversion to bright lights and are likely to close their eyes and turn their heads if exposed. 
What are class IIIb lasers and are they dangerous? 
Lasers that emit between 5mW and 500mW output power are in Class IIIb or IEC Class 3B. Class IIIb lasers cannot legally be promoted as laser pointers or demonstration laser products. Product labels and user instructions must describe the hazard classification of the product and its output characteristics. 
With any laser product, the potential for injury depends both on the product itself and how the product is used. Higher powered Class IIIb or IEC Class 3B lasers are dangerous and can cause either temporary visual effects or an eye injury. 
What is the problem with more powerful Class IIIb lasers being promoted and sold as pointers? 
Class IIIb hand-held lasers are too dangerous for use as pointers or amusement articles. Furthermore, promotion of Class IIIb or IEC Class 3B products for pointing or amusement violates FDA requirements and United States law. Manufacturers of such products may be required to repair, replace, or refund the purchase price of violative products distributed in the U.S. These products are also subject to detention and seizure by the U.S. Customs and Border Protection when imported. 
Irresponsible use of more powerful laser pointers poses a significant risk of injury to the people exposed. Persons who misuse or irresponsibly use lasers are open to personal liability and prosecution. 
What are the FDA requirements for Class IIIa and IIIb laser systems? 
The FDA standard 21 CFR 1040.10 and 1040.11) requires a warning label on Class IIIa and IIIb products. Class IIIb products must also have a key switch and connector for remote interlock. The products are also required to have identifying and certifying labels and instructions for safe use. 
For more information, see the Radiation Products page </cdrh/comp/rad_nonion_products.html> on our web site. 
Do other organizations have requirements or standards for lasers?
Yes. Several states have registration requirements and annual registration fees for operators of Class IIIb lasers. Check with the Department of Health in your state <http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/linkwarning/linkwarning.cfm?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ecdc%2Egov%2Fmmwr%2Finternational%2Frelres%2Ehtml> for additional information. 
The American National Standards Institute (ANSI) publishes standards for the Safe Use of Lasers2: 
Z136.1 American National Standard for the Safe Use of Lasers: 2000 
Z136.5 American National Standard for the Safe Use of Lasers in Educational Institutions: 2000 
Z136.6 American National Standard for the Safe Use of Lasers Outdoors: 2000 
The ANSI standards <http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/linkwarning/linkwarning.cfm?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwebstore%2Eansi%2Eorg%2Fansidocstore%2Fdefault%2Easp> contain procedures for avoiding exposure to laser light, designation of a Laser Safety Officer, training of operators, and the posting of warning signs in laser operating areas for Class IIIb lasers. People who operate Class IIIb lasers should be familiar with these standards to ensure the laser is used safely. In cases where a laser pointer is misused and results in an injury or alleged injury, authorities may refer to these standards as criteria for appropriate use and safety precautions. 
Can battery-operated, portable laser systems be sold in the U.S? 
Yes, battery-operated, portable laser systems can be sold in the U.S., providing that they fully comply with the standard, are certified and reported, and are not Class IIIb lasers sold or promoted for pointing or amusement purposes. 
People who operate Class IIIb portable laser systems should be familiar with the above ANSI standards for safe use of lasers. This ANSI series of standards includes specific information for the safe use of such laser products in their applications of use. 
1. IEC - International Electrotechnical Commission Standard 60825-1, Ed. 1.2: 2001-08 
2. ANSI Z136 standards are available from the Laser Institute of America (www.laserinstitute.org)

Updated January 5, 2006


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## The_LED_Museum (Feb 4, 2006)

That means I'll be in the FDA's sights as I have several Class IIIb Wicked Lasers products; products I'd be rather reluctant to hand over to the "state" because they might be violative. :shakehead: :/ :shakehead:
My website won't protect me in this case.  :/


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## nero_design (Feb 4, 2006)

*FDA etc*

Nice. Sounds like another supplier was cranky with Wicked for undercutting them. In the worst case scenario, American laserists are going to end up getting a "Tard-model" every time they buy a laser. 

I suppose that means Wicked may have to make even more lasers. Fines can't be be imposed on overseas suppliers/manufacturers, just local ones. Worst case scenario is that the USA will have a new bigger bulkier 'stupid' laser series to make sure that stupid owners don't do stupid things to themselves... or others. Remember, it was stupid people who caused the latest series of US restrictions and laser laws to be put in place after some uber-morons aimed their lasers at aircraft and people and henceforth ruined it for the rest of you.

Makes me glad that I live in Australia.

Say, *Jellyfish414*: you didn't have anything to do with this, did you? Hmmm. You seem pretty keen to push it around here. Can't help but wonder.

*That_Guy*: The thread is still there as I write this here. Either way, should be an interesting conclusion.


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## comozo (Feb 4, 2006)

The_LED_Museum said:


> That means I'll be in the FDA's sights as I have several Class IIIb Wicked Lasers products; products I'd be rather reluctant to hand over to the "state" because they might be violative. :shakehead: :/ :shakehead:
> My website won't protect me in this case.  :/



LED Museum as far as I can tell from combing through the FDA literature there is no federal law that says it is illegal to own a high power laser.


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## nero_design (Feb 4, 2006)

*FDA etc*

I see Wicked has indeed responded on it's own forums, *That_Guy*. I won't repeat or cut-N-paste it here as a matter of courtesy... 

Remember that the FDA generally follow a lot of these sort of things as guidelines rather than enforced rules. I have also been assured by others that WL won't hand over customer details to external persons or companies and can't be coerced to do so... but as long as they continue to guarrentee delivery for their products, I wouldn't be too concerned. It comes down to how sensible the user is and how they apply their laser devices.

.


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## duFontaine (Feb 4, 2006)

Thanks,

duFontaine


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## jellyfish414 (Feb 4, 2006)

Nero, did you read the letter linked in the first post? It says the FDA ordered an Equinox 105mW and tested it in their lab. They found it to violate 5 of their safety performance standards. If you want to talk about "stupid" or "retarded" let's put the blame where it belongs - with WL for making and selling blatatnly illegal lasers to begin with.


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## duFontaine (Feb 4, 2006)

I just read Nexus posting. Thats a real good answer. Game ON!!

Thanks 
duFontaine


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## jellyfish414 (Feb 4, 2006)

Man, this could not be any worse. Here's Nexus' response on their forum (I'm posting it here since the thread is locked to prevent any further discussion of a very concerning issue):

"Wicked Lasers has not received nor acknowledged any kind of FDA letter to date. We have no interest to communicate with the FDA. The FDA has no jurisdiction over foreign manufacturers. Our lasers are used legitimately and legally so we have no reason to alter our manner of sales. Buyer information privacy is a given at Wicked Lasers. The only way the FDA would have access to your information would be if they can convince an anti - foreign policy Chinese Communist government that a US regulatory agency could hand out subpoenas to law-abiding Chinese businesses. This is simply not possible. For example, if you are an American and have a bank account in China, the IRS would never know about it. On the other hand, recently a Chinese government worker imbezzled over 100 million RMB (12 million USD) of government funds and fled to New York. China couldn't do anything as they have no jurisdiction in the United States for law enforcement. Should there be any more questions please contact us at [email protected]. For the sake of competitors and spammers sharing their opinions about this topic, this thread will be locked."

It sure is nice to see them hide behind the shield of communism! Maybe the FDA can't obtain the names from WL directly, but could they compel PayPal to provide the transaction history? Or more likely, if WL continues to ship their lasers here, will the FDA start going after the recipients of these new packages? That response is really the height of irresponsibility.


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## duFontaine (Feb 4, 2006)

Jellyfish way to take it to the extreme. They're not drugs dude. They don't have $200 billion a year dedicated to the crack down of lasers. Sure...I guess they could "compel Pay Pal" to hand over their transaction records...or they could force Google to provide search results for lasers...or they could sit outside your home and wait for a mysterious package. But of course they're not going to do any of those things. Why? Because lasers aren't a top priority to the FDA. I was just worried about WL turning over their purchase records. It looks like they aren’t going to so the next question is will they comply and add more safety features to the lasers shipped to the US in the future. If not then, buyer beware I guess.

Thanks,

duFontaine


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## Raccoon (Feb 4, 2006)

Um, Hello.

The FDA page cited states NOTHING about the customer who receives the illegal product being fined or penalized. It says the importer of the laser. That would be WL himself and noone else.


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## The_LED_Museum (Feb 4, 2006)

comozo said:


> LED Museum as far as I can tell from combing through the FDA literature there is no federal law that says it is illegal to own a high power laser.


There might not be a law against me from owning a Class IIIb laser; though I stand to have confiscated Class IIIb lasers I have from Wicked Lasers. I'll just have to throw them in the garbage, lose them, have them stolen, or otherwise dispose of them.


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## Raccoon (Feb 4, 2006)

I'm sure the FDA regulation excempts raccoons. I'll be waiting by your trash bin.


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## jellyfish414 (Feb 4, 2006)

Racoon: the letter states "in cases where a foreign manufacturer fails to respond, penalties may be imposed upon a person who imports the electronic products." 

WL is exporting from China. If I'm a buyer, I'm an importer.

duFontaine: I doubt the FDA will go after individual customers, but his argument that gov't can't get his info because he's in China is nuts. If they wanted to, the info would easily be obtained from PayPal.


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## duFontaine (Feb 4, 2006)

Love the signature Racoon, I use the same one on other forums.

duFontaine

All religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree. All these aspirations are directed toward ennobling man's life, lifting it from the sphere of mere physical existence and leading the individual towards freedom. Einstein


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## Raccoon (Feb 4, 2006)

I thought WL started off in the States, then opened a distribution branch in China. I could be wrong.

If there's still any remnents of them in the US, they'd be liable. But in such a situation, a purchaser of one laser product cannot possibly be classified as an importer. You need to be a licensed business to see fines like $300,000 minimum.


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## duFontaine (Feb 4, 2006)

Jellyfish - you are absolutely right. The US can do anything they want. Welcome to 1984!!

Thanks
duFontaine


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## Raccoon (Feb 4, 2006)

duFontaine said:


> Love the signature Racoon, I use the same one on other forums.


Thank bootleg2go... I nicked it from him a year ago.


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## Raccoon (Feb 4, 2006)

I have a suggestion.


Someone create a website, like, www.wickedlasers-beware.com

Then we can all google-bomb the site to make it high ranking in google searches. That is, everyone link to it from their own websites and sig lines. At least this way, potential WL customers will get a heads up.


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## comozo (Feb 4, 2006)

jellyfish414 said:


> Man, this could not be any worse. Here's Nexus' response on their forum (I'm posting it here since the thread is locked to prevent any further discussion of a very concerning issue):
> 
> "Wicked Lasers has not received nor acknowledged any kind of FDA letter to date. We have no interest to communicate with the FDA. The FDA has no jurisdiction over foreign manufacturers. Our lasers are used legitimately and legally so we have no reason to alter our manner of sales. Buyer information privacy is a given at Wicked Lasers. The only way the FDA would have access to your information would be if they can convince an anti - foreign policy Chinese Communist government that a US regulatory agency could hand out subpoenas to law-abiding Chinese businesses. This is simply not possible. For example, if you are an American and have a bank account in China, the IRS would never know about it. On the other hand, recently a Chinese government worker imbezzled over 100 million RMB (12 million USD) of government funds and fled to New York. China couldn't do anything as they have no jurisdiction in the United States for law enforcement. Should there be any more questions please contact us at [email protected]. For the sake of competitors and spammers sharing their opinions about this topic, this thread will be locked."
> 
> It sure is nice to see them hide behind the shield of communism! Maybe the FDA can't obtain the names from WL directly, but could they compel PayPal to provide the transaction history? Or more likely, if WL continues to ship their lasers here, will the FDA start going after the recipients of these new packages? That response is really the height of irresponsibility.



I very much doubt the federal authorities are going to knock on your door asking for your laser that costs time and money the more likely thing to happen is to go after the importer, confiscate WL products at customs. All WL needs to do is follow FDA guide lines.


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## NairB (Feb 4, 2006)

Panic or what!!

Cmon everybody its not as bad as That!!

Do you honesty think that precious time, money and resources will be wasted towards government agencies tracking down individuals who have purchased a laser....YES...will say that again....A LASER. I really think not. What can happen??
They chap your door and if your at home that week they might ask you the question...did you buy a class111b 95mW laser on such and such a date. If so can we have it or you will be arrested??LOL
Oh I lost it, oh is that correct are those things illegal, oh PANIC PANIC PANIC

The worst scenario is that customs might be memo'd and informed of changes to what should be imported.

NairB


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## DonShock (Feb 4, 2006)

NairB said:


> Panic or what!!


I don't think it's panic at all. I just think most people are decent law-abiding people at heart. I think they assume that if something is being offered for sale, it must be legal. So when they start hearing that something they purchased in all innocence MIGHT be illegal, they wonder about the consequences. After all, with all innocent grandmothers, etc. being caught up in the RIAA lawsuits, can you really blame them.

Imagine how much worse it would be if it was the government filing criminal lawsuits instead of the RIAA filing civil lawsuits. Yes, the government mostly doesn't care about the end user, but neither did the RIAA at first. Initially, they filed suit against the software makers and providers of file sharing services. After getting a giant "**** Off" from the manufacturers and failing to stop them fully in the courts, they decided to go after the end users and stop the problem by drying up the demand. If you don't think the government would go the same route if sufficiently provoked, you only have to look at the war on drugs. And based on the WL response in their forums, some of which were quoted above, their response seems to be "**** off, we're in China". Who knows how big a problem this is in the eyes of the government regulators or how far they're willing to go to stop it. Do you have any doubt that a couple of national news stories about an end user being slapped with huge fines would all but end WL's sales in the USA?

Although I can't currently afford a $500 laser right now, the idea was tempting which was why I was reading up on the issue. After checking out a lot of the posts on this issue on the WL forums, I was initially confused. Lots of "Yes, they're legal" / "No, they're illegal" discussions everywhere. What finally ended my investigation was when I finally came across a post from the WL moderator that admitted that they were falsifying the import statement so that it would get past customs. To me that shows them not to be in compliance with the regulations so if I eventually purchase one of these lasers, it will be from a source that is in compliance. Others may decide differently and that's up to them.

Some people, like me, want to know all the facts about the law and make our own decisions about the whether or not to break it in any given situation, what the chances of getting caught are, and what are the consequences if we are caught. These posts seem to be people trying to get the answers to those questions.


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## NairB (Feb 4, 2006)

I do agree with you Don in some respects, although the very fact the law on this matter is extremely unclear or difficult to understand, not only to the end consumer but different government agencies, which suggests to me that it is one big legal nightmare for all concerned.
When some IDIOT shines a laser in a pilots eyes...then that is an obvious infringement of the law and they can be easily prosecuted and of coarse lets not forget the wonderful press/media(cough) can have a field day with stories about it(and why not). 
However, the legalities of whether these lasers are purchased and used SAFELY and indoors by us law abiding citizens is difficult to determine for government agencies.....e.g. "300 people will attend court this morning for pocessing a pen laser. They include people from the scientific community, physics professors, designers. photographers etc, etc" all because it clearly states that this will happen if you buy a little laser from China for light photography or something along those lines.
The thing is... nothing is clearly stated anywhere and you are correct to mention that we can take it for granted that it is OK to buy from e-commerse sites such as Wickeds.
I just hope a big issue will not be made over these lasers....a review and clarification of the law would be welcomed by the government.....BUT I am certainly not paniced by this, infact i am going to buy another laser.....If they want to be petty regarding this and dont clarify the law for Me a good Tax paying citizen....then take me to court!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Kiessling (Feb 4, 2006)

Wickedlasers is currently not able to participate on CPF, and there is no reason to change this now.




Raccoon said:


> I have a suggestion.
> 
> 
> Someone create a website, like, www.wickedlasers-beware.com
> ...



Please do not use CPF to support such an activity.


One more thing guys ... please do not discuss "issues" of other web fora here ... leave their dirt where it belongs (over there) and stick to the information.


I know this is a sensible topic, and I think this thread is running smoothly given the nature of its content. Let's try to keep it that way 

bernhard


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## 83Venture (Feb 4, 2006)

I have seen the Government expend hundreds/thousands of dollars worth of resources going after a couple dollars. That was just revenue, not something they have decided is dangerous. 

Expecting them to operate on any kind of cost/benefit or "reasonable" basis is a bet I would not take. By the way Uncle I do not own any of these.


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## That_Guy (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: FDA etc*



nero_design said:


> *That_Guy*: The thread is still there as I write this here. Either way, should be an interesting conclusion.


Yes one thread is there, but it has been locked making it pretty hard for anyone to come to any sort of “conclusion”. After posting the link to the FDA watch list in that thread I was _IP_ banned within a few minutes. I then changed my IP and was writing my reply to your post calling me a "MORON" but the thread was locked just as I went to post it. Someone then started _another_ thread in which I posted my reply from the locked thread proving that the watch list is indeed current along with a link to the letter from the FDA posted above, and around half an hour later I received abusive PMs from a moderator and my account was banned and the majority of my posts deleted along with the thread.

It's pretty clear that Wicked was trying to keep anyone from knowing, but now that the cats out of the bag they have been forced to confront the situation.


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## nero_design (Feb 4, 2006)

*To DuFontaine*

*Deleted by Original Poster (nero_design)*

/Likes the forum but not prepared to waste time posting variations of the same.


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## Kiessling (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: To DuFontaine*

Please don't start with politics in this thread.
And try to attack the post and not the poster.
bernhard


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## KBlaserman (Feb 4, 2006)

The new spyder series are not specific to wickedlasers, i have yet to find the original manufacturer but i have seen them on three other sites and on ebay but they all are very illegal. Odd thing about this is, I thought that the CDRH controlled the abuse of illegal laser sales? Or at least they used to...

 heh


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## That_Guy (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: To DuFontaine*

Nero,

The issue here isn't the effectiveness of the "safety features". I agree with you; they do not offer any additional safety and are nothing more than an annoyance. The issue is that *Wicked Lasers are illegal, and they are deliberately deceiving their customers.* I can't possibly encourage this, especially since it can only hurt customers.


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## KBlaserman (Feb 4, 2006)

Just look at the forums.. Stories all over of people saying " I whipped out the laser in the bar the other night and shined it on the ceiling." That person could have blinded 50+ people. ALSO look at wicked lasers slogan, I’m not just bashing them, there are many other laser companies that say this but I think its wrong; Burn things pop balloons start fires - Most irresponsible statement anyone could say to use a laser of that power sad thing is.. It sells.


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## nero_design (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: To DuFontaine*



That_Guy said:


> I can't possibly encourage this, especially since it can only hurt customers.



Just to verify: This subject does not currently affect any laser owners at this time and it may likely not do so in future. Wicked can legally sell their products from China to any person at any location in the world and regularly do so. It's up to the purchaser to comply with their local laws and to abide by sensible use of the laser at all times. The USA (on the other hand) has the FDA which determines what should or should not be sold to it's citizens. They have a dual role: To enforce safety (which is ethical) and to restrict competitive trade (which is probably unethical). At this time, the FDA can only 'influence' local customs departments with what are determined to be "non-enforcable guidelines". They can reccomend an action be taken yet the enforcement of the said action is open to a wide interpretation and also cannot be applied to an overseas manufacturer (to the best of my knowledge at the time of this writing/based on previous FDA documents)

This is very much 'a storm in a teacup' as we say.


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## Kiessling (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: To DuFontaine*

LEDGloworm ... you posted an inacceptable political rant right after my reminder that politics are a no-go in this thread and forum. 
After I deleted the offending post ... you re-posted it minutes later.

Please ... take a week off and make yourself familiar with the rules of CPF before posting again. 

:banned:

bernhard

P.S.: this is the last reminder ... no politics, dirt form other forums and personal attacks in this thread. Any violation will have immediate consequences without further warnings.


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## Kiessling (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: To DuFontaine*

ok ... you posted a third copy of your post while I was typing. Make your time to re-think your behaviour one month.


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## That_Guy (Feb 4, 2006)

*Re: To DuFontaine*

Nero,

Yes it is the customer’s responsibility to comply with their local laws. But Wicked Lasers also have a responsibility to their customers: to tell the truth about local regulations rather than blatantly lying to their customers by saying that their lasers are "100% legal in the United States".

While this issue currently isn't affecting any customers in the US, it has in the past and most certainly can in the future. Around a year ago all Wicked Lasers products were being seized by customs. It only stopped when they started to mislabel the packages as "$8 pen lights" from "Energy Technology Development Limited". There’s a good chance that US customs now knows about this, so it's very possible that shipments will start being seized again in the future. Not good for customers. As others have said it would be very easy for the FDA to get a record of Wicked's customers from PayPal, so there is a risk of the customers being fined, which was the original concern raised in this thread.

If you want to bring ethics into this then the ethics of Wicked Lasers is much more of a concern than the ethics of the FDA. Wicked Lasers are the ones intentionally breaking US law and deceiving their customers. The FDA is only trying to protect US citizens. I can think of one word to sum up Wicked's business ethics: "Wicked".


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## duFontaine (Feb 4, 2006)

Thanks
duFontaine


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## bootleg2go (Feb 4, 2006)

In reply to Nero designs quote, "Nice. Sounds like another supplier was cranky with Wicked for undercutting them."
I don't think that is the case, WL is not really undercutting anyone and most all of use have competitve prices with each other. It would be stupid for another distributor/retailer or supplier to bring attention to another company in this way as it only brings more unneeded attention and scrutiny upon our whole hobby and industry. If anything it was probably most due to WL's popularity across the web. If an individual was responsible I would be very surprised, it would probably be someone who was upset about being banned (Not "That_Guy") from the WL forums, there have been many banned for speaking their opinion.

I was recently contacted by Steve at WL and began open communications and some sharing of knowledge between us. I have great respect for Chris and the business he has built. I don't really agree with the policy of censorship in public forums and the deleting of negative posts or banning that has been done there; However it is his forum to do with what he wishes.
I do know big brother is bigger than ever, but as far as I know, it still requires a court order from a judge to get PayPal customer transaction information. Also if they did obtain the fact that an individual at some time in the past did purchase a product, they don't have proof of posession. Justr because a person purchased something, it does not mean they still have it and they are not going to come to your door and search your home for an item.

Jack


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## comozo (Feb 5, 2006)

This thread has digressed. 
This debate began when a poster at WL stated WL products were FDA certified never having checked the facts but has since retracted the claim. As stated in the FDA copied text laser devices above 5mw output are required to have certain features to be compliant. Wl products do not have those features, this makes them non compliant in this country. WL by their own but implied non statement know their product is not compliant. As stated by them and I quote
Lasers not modified! Guaranteed 100% Legal to own in the United States
Nowhere on the site do they state legal to sell in this country. The subtext of their statement says a lot. All threads at WL concerning this subject have been locked. They give various reasons but are really skirting the issue.


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## CLHC (Feb 5, 2006)

Interesting. . .That's all!


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## Raccoon (Feb 5, 2006)

You're not going to see a variable wavelength pointer in THIS lifetime.  Simply not possible with current pump-diode technology.

Follow-up to previous post removed by Kiessling.


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## jellyfish414 (Feb 5, 2006)

*Re: To DuFontaine*

*Baiting and ad-hominem attacks edited out by Kiessling.*

FDA does nothing to curb fair trade. They do set legal standards, by which manufacturers and resellers must apply. It seems to me that everyone else selling lasers abides by these rules and fair competition exists amongst these companies. WL thought they could pull a fast one by disregarding these rules. I guess that's fine, but if you want to talk about a lack of ethics, WL should at least be honest with their customers instead of blatantly lying to them (100% legal in the US??)! 

I'm sorry you disagree with the 5mW limit. Heck, I would agree it should be lifted to at least 10mW or 15mW, but that's the law. Why do you have to be 16 to get a driver's license? Why 21 to drink? Why is the speed limit 65mph, when I could easily drive 80 and still be safe? Laws have to be on the books somewhere. 

And let's be clear about the law. Wicked Lasers IS violating US law by shipping their lasers here. Being in China does not change this fact, it simply means it's awfully hard to prosecute them. 

Who knows if the FDA will go after Wicked's customers. It certainly appears they're threatening to. While any course of action may be unlikely, it doesn't exactly put my mind to rest as a customer to know that I'm "unlikely to face prosecution" for purchasing this product. Maybe that's good enough for you, but I suppose our standards just differ.


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## Raccoon (Feb 5, 2006)

WL is not looking for smart buyers. Smart buyers shop around and find more competative prices. WL is looking to sell a street laser ready for the 13yo in your life.


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## bearhunter (Feb 5, 2006)

jellyfish414 said:


> Racoon: but his argument that gov't can't get his info because he's in China is nuts. If they wanted to, the info would easily be obtained from PayPal.


That is one of the reasons I DON'T DO PAYPAL


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## Pellidon (Feb 5, 2006)

The_LED_Museum said:


> There might not be a law against me from owning a Class IIIb laser; though I stand to have confiscated Class IIIb lasers I have from Wicked Lasers. I'll just have to throw them in the garbage, lose them, have them stolen, or otherwise dispose of them.



Take them to the mall and have them engraved "Mag-Instruments, Ontario CA" then when if the Feds come knocking, they aren't the lasers, they're Maglites.


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## jellyfish414 (Feb 5, 2006)

It's not just PayPal. If they used Verisign or another service they could be compelled. As has been said before, hopefully end users won't be sought after. More likely than PayPal seizing records, you'll see them cancel WL's account, making it hard for them to get paid. Remember, PayPal is owned by eBay and WL is already suspended by eBay.


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## Kiessling (Feb 5, 2006)

Guys ... I had to remove two posts and edit two others since my last post a few hours ago.
Please try to adhere to the rules of conduct of this place or have this important thread shut down.
bernhard


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## LowBat (Feb 5, 2006)

Just adding my two cents here. It would be nice if a reasonable maximum power level could be set (<5mw is rather low) and just ban the manufacture, possession, modification, etc. of anything that exceeds it. I don't want some yoyo with a 300mw playing with it around me or anyone else who could become a victim of a permanent eye injury. There needs to be a reasonable limit.


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## PhotonWrangler (Feb 5, 2006)

One of the things that I don't get about human nature - hand someone a laser pointer and their first instinct is to point it another person! I've seen this happen on numerous occasions, and twice I've had to dive into the path of the beam and snatch it from the person operating it.


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## Raccoon (Feb 5, 2006)

It is human nature to wield power over another. Try the same experiment with a gun-- it's rather ammusing and horrifying at the same time.


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## That_Guy (Feb 6, 2006)

This document on the FDA website proves that the letter sent to Wicked Lasers was not because of someone "dobbing them in", and also proves that the FDA isn't being unethical by "restricting competitive trade". It is a list of companies which the FDA has sent warning letters to. There are dozens of companies on the list, most of which are American. So it is not a case of the FDA unfairly targeting one company.


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## nero_design (Feb 6, 2006)

That_Guy said:


> This document on the FDA website proves that the letter sent to Wicked Lasers was not because of someone "dobbing them in...



Actually, the FDA only investigate once a written complaint has been received. As is clearly the case here. Since two of the people posting regularly in this thread are also posting the very same threads on several other forums across the internet, I can't help but wonder what their connection to the incident might be. If I recall, there was an individual here who had an axe to grind against WL after being banned. He made several open threats to contact the FDA for 'revenge'. He made those threats here and on two other internet based locations. Again, it doesn't affect me. But any laserists in the US may eventually suffer for this action in the very near future.

/Might be a good time to buy after all.


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## That_Guy (Feb 6, 2006)

I admit that I don't know how the FDA process works. But given the number of warning letters on that page the FDA must receive an awful lot of complaints. They have also known about Wicked Lasers and had them on their watch list for well over a year so I don't see why they would need to wait for a complaint before writing them a warning letter.

It's interesting that you accuse members here of some sort of "connection". From this incident it's clear that you are the one most likely to have a "connection" because of your blind support for Wicked Lasers - choosing to ignore the facts and real issues while supporting Wicked Laser's efforts to deceive their own customers and break US law. Even if you don’t agree with the restrictions in the US you could at least support people being told the truth about the matter.


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## nero_design (Feb 6, 2006)

I do purchase products from time to time and I will review them whenever I get the opportunity to do so. Lately, I have purchased from WL. And my country (Australia) like the rest of the world, has no connection at this time to the recommendations of the FDA.

I don't have a "blind support" for anyone. But I do like a good product when I purchase one and will defend my reasons for recommending it to others. And I feel that my reviews, experiences and photographs may be of interest to others, either in the US or elsewhere in the world. I have learned much from this forum and look forward to future products in this arena with enthusiasm. Particularly Blue and Violet lasers.

*Edited by Original Poster (nero_design)*


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## That_Guy (Feb 6, 2006)

No commercial connection or interests in the laser industry? Come on. I don't think it's a coincidence that you show up a few days after an announcement in the Wicked Lasers forum asking for a professional graphic design artist or whatever it was. I don't know if you were paid any cash for your work which is used extensively on the Wicked Lasers homepage, but you were certainly paid in "lasers" (one of the methods of payment offered in the announcement). Do you seriously expect me to believe that you paid for all of the dozen or so Wicked Lasers that you own including the early product samples?

On the Wicked Lasers forum you previously had your referral code in you sig line, now you have a link to your site which has a big banner saying "Wicked Lasers" with your referral code down the bottom. So even if you haven't been "paid" anything you clearly have a commercial interest in promoting Wicked Lasers.

Regarding a "variance", I'm not familiar with the regulations, but isn't the general consensus that you only need a variance if your using a laser in public, not if your using it at home?


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## jellyfish414 (Feb 6, 2006)

That_Guy, I'm not sure I agree with the "you don't need a variance unless you're outdoors" logic. I believe you need a variance to own/operate these lasers... PERIOD. That's just my interpretation based on the material on the FDA's site, but they should state it more clearly to avoid confusion.

Marco, "the FDA will investigate only when a written complaint is received?" May I trouble you for some evidence to substantiate this claim? Please have a look around the FDA's site. There are lots of documents written on lasers, which suggests its an issue they closely monitor. We know that WL was previously on an "import detention list" and before that they were based in the US but were forced down by legal pressures. So it's quite obvious to me that WL has been an FDA concern for some time.

Yes, I've posted this on another forum. This is something all laserists should be made aware of as the question "Is WL legal?" seems to pop up frequently. Now it appears we have the answer. If my cross-posting is evidence of commercial interest, then what does it say about you? You cross posted "New 200-300mW Wicked Portables" before this issue even came up. 

Kiessling, I apologize for discussing another forum, but my credibility is being challenged. I've never written any complaint to the FDA about anyone. Marco, please cut the smoke and mirrors and focus on the issue at hand: Wicked Lasers does not produce a legal product for the US market.


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## RalphRussell (Feb 6, 2006)

Okay, so I'm fairly sure I have an illegal laser pointer. It is > 50mw but it has the little sticker that says its <5mw. Supposedly, having the sticker on it somehow makes it legal. I don't believe that for a minute. It is NOT from WL. I plan to use it for a star pointer outdoors for Astronomy events. I know full well that it is not legal. But I intend to use it anyway. I intend to use it responsibly. I believe I am taking on risk that I will get into legal trouble. I believe the risk is small and I'm willing to accept it.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know how to apply for a variance from the FDA? Has anyone got one?


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## nero_design (Feb 6, 2006)

*Jeepers.*

*Deleted by Original Poster (nero_design)*

/Likes the forum but not prepared to waste time posting variations of the same.


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## DCFluX (Feb 6, 2006)

I was thinking about a nice 35W IR laser diode I saw on eBay a while ago. but it was 810nM so a ND/YAG rod couldn't make green. But it might be intresting to make shallow UV.


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## Athoul (Feb 6, 2006)

Like Nero said, you need a variance to legally operate any class 3b or 4 laser in the US. Thus when you buy a greater the 5mW laser from *ANY* company it is technically illegal for you as an operator to use it without a variance. There are some companies that can legally sell their lasers in the us, but again that doen't mean *YOU *can legally own one. You can not legally own and operate a PGL-III 100 mW laser without a variance or any other laser that is class 3B or 4 regardless of the company selling them, safety features or not.

One thing they might start doing is cracking down and seeing if people have variances for these lasers, which would hinder business on all fronts for these high powered portable lasers period. Soemthing I would not like to see.

Please just use your lasers responsibly, no matter the power rating. I enjoy using lasers and talking with others in these forums about lasers, let's not try to restrict even futher something we all enjoy.


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## comozo (Feb 6, 2006)

Information Act and government-made-public records. I am not going to speculate on where the error lies nor who should do what. Either way, I myself have always found the WL folks to be honest in all their dealings with me over the last year. If anything, I have seen them decline sales to possible minors (under 18) on a couple of occasions... something which I found to be an admirable action. But again, the only country potentially affected by this issue is the US. Still, everyone seems to be buying these Class 3B lasers in the US... and nobody seems to own a variance to do so. I’m certainly not in a position to advise anyone on the best course of action. Just use them wisely (wherever you are) and I don't see a problem. Misuse them and it only makes it worse for the rest of us.

Adios.

*Marco Nero*
Senior Designer
Sydney Fox Studios
Australia[/QUOTE]

That's not exactly true. If you comb through the FDA/ CDRH sites you'll notice that a variance is needed when commerce ( charged admission laser light show) is involved or is contained within another paid venue ( such as a free show at a sporting event) were commerce has taken place or could take place in public. Those are some examples. The FDA/CDRH does not oversee the construction or use of lasers by private individuals in a non commerce application. A hobbyist can construct a multiwatt laser without the need for a variance and for that matter any safety features.

Off on a slight tangent.
Nero wrote: Either way, I myself have always found the WL folks to be honest in all their dealings with me over the last year. 


Recently the company in question provided a portion of a video clip demonstrating one of their lasers being used in Iraq to designate an enemy combatant. The video was prominently displayed on the front page. They claimed that one of their green lasers was being used. To the contrary a poster provided a link to the full video, in the video the commander clearly states it is an IR spotlight actually an IR laser being used not a green laser. After the poster thoughtfully brought that minor discrepency to everyones attention the video was quickly removed from the front page and cannot be found on the website. The thread was locked. 

Where to find
Forum: General > Battle Video ( locked) http://forum.wickedlasers.com/viewtopic.php?t=1670 
Nexus post #1
Have you guys seen it?
Nexus post #2
"The laser shown is a 75mW Phoenix Wicked Lasers, these are becoming standard issue to some squadrons in Iraq. "

Full video
http://media.putfile.com/UH60-in-Mosul

These are the type of laser devices used in combat situations. 
www.bemeyers.com
The video actually comes from this site and so to the product used in the video.
Honesty is always the best policy.


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## nero_design (Feb 6, 2006)

*Deleted by Original Poster (nero_design)*

/Likes the forum but not prepared to waste time posting variations of the same.


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## That_Guy (Feb 6, 2006)

Regarding variances, gottaluvlasers on the WL forums says that:


> Any laser above class IIIA powers (5 mW) must obtain a laser light show variance to be operated outside the privacy of your own home.
> 
> Any public display of a laser display device (no matter how simplistic) must obtain a laser light show variance (above 5mW powers).


Speaking of honesty, on the Wicked Lasers sister site www.tracershot.com they took pictures from www.bemeyers.com and used them as "beamshots" of their lasers. After I informed BE Meyers the pictures were taken down.

Also, a few weeks ago on the Wicked Lasers homepage they displayed an "endorsement" from the US Department of Homeland Security along with their logo which has now been removed. I don't know if it was a complete fabrication, but I very much doubt the US government goes around writing product endorsements on websites, especially websites of companies in "unfriendly" nations.

EDIT:
Nero,
1) The laser in the video is an IR laser.
2) I don't know where you get that idea from. As far as I know only "hotlinking" or posting entire articles is a no-no.
3) I'm pretty sure it's not Wicked Lasers if that's what you mean. Sure some parts are sourced from other countries, but I'm pretty sure it's built in the USA.


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## jkaiser3000 (Feb 6, 2006)

as for the video in question, I honestly don't see how someone might want to "paint" an enemy target with a VISIBLE green laser. After all, the painted enemy can see the origin and shoot back, don't you think?

In fact, the us military, and everyone else for that matter, uses coded, modulated IR lasers for targetting. The modulation and coding is used to prevent someone from trying to fool the ordenance by following a different beam.


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## nero_design (Feb 6, 2006)

That_Guy said:


> and used them as "beamshots" of their lasers. After I informed BE Meyers the pictures were taken down.


.

That's all I needed to hear. 

I take it you were the same "person" who wrote to me to inform me of Wicked using my photographs last year? They had my complete support to do so. Your method of writing was familliar.

I think I can see what's going on now.

*jkaiser3000:* The US don't modulate their lasers. Only the "friendly IR marker beacons" Part of the use of a visible beam is for intimidation. Troops also carry weapon-mountable and pocket lasers up to <100mW which are described by millitary charter as '532nm Defensive/Offensive lasers'.


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## That_Guy (Feb 6, 2006)

Huh? I am not the person who emailed you about Wicked using your photos. But how is that at all relevant? "That's all I needed to hear." "I think I can see what's going on now." What are you getting at here? Do you deny that Wicked stole the pictures from BE Meyers?


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## comozo (Feb 6, 2006)

Re: Nero 
This company did claim a truth but when presented with contradictory evidence promply removed the video.
Why is the thread locked if the video is truthful?
They claimed a phoenix laser was used. 
( During WW II in this country people put blackout curtains on their windows, in the UK the cities went black before a German bombing raid. Using any visible light takes away the element of surprise and tells the enemy were you are. It's suicide.)
This companies products are not built for combat conditions.
You seem to have missed thoses glaring inconsistencies.

This saying is a good thing to remember.
“Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to deceive”


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## jellyfish414 (Feb 6, 2006)

> Also, a few weeks ago on the Wicked Lasers homepage they displayed an "endorsement" from the US Department of Homeland Security along with their logo which has now been removed. I don't know if it was a complete fabrication, but I very much doubt the US government goes around writing product endorsements on websites, especially websites of companies in "unfriendly" nations.



Yeah, a Google search revealed a cached page with the "testimonial:"

*Wicked Lasers was introduced to us in 2005 and their quality is the best we have seen in this field. Their product has many applications for our line of work make and it is a valuable piece to our choice of tools to work with. From forensics, to distance metering, and search and rescue operations, Wicked Lasers provides an excellent product and a great price. With their high quality products, we do not have the other problems faced with "other" manufacturers. Their support is exceptional, and they always have a quick response time. They are also the only laser seller that makes an effort to ensure these products are used for legitimate purposes. 

I recommend Wicked Lasers from direct personal experience and will continue to support their high quality products. Homeland Security has used these devices for many different applications and even assists in our law enforcement division operations. Other applications for its use are always in development. Most recently, lasers are now used to indicate to pilots they have entered restricted airspace. Also, there are countless military applications as well. Properly diffused, the laser may even be used for emergency lighting that can light up and entire hanger space. If you are looking to buy a high quality laser product, look no further, Wicked Lasers is the place to buy. 
Sal Bonaccorso
Department of Homeland Security
*

So Homeland Security uses Wicked Lasers to warn pilots about entering restricted airspace? Um, does anyone think that's true?


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## Athoul (Feb 6, 2006)

I can't say anything about the above statement, but with the video that was used on their home page, it was there only a breif period of time. Once it was brought to their attention that it might not be legit they took it down and said that it was removed while they investigated the legitimacy of the video. It's possible they made a mistake, everyone does from time to time, sure they should have looked into it before putting it up, but it's also possible that the person submitting it as what it as claimed to be gave a very convincing show of authenticity.


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## nero_design (Feb 7, 2006)

comozo said:


> Why is the thread locked if the video is truthful?


Because the thread was deteriorating into a "Can I use my laser for self-defense" thread. And I think you know now why they locked the thread. The same thing happens here on CPF and with GOOD reason. There's a lot of logical arguments for not allowing such a discussion to take place. It had nothing to do with the video.

And you can stop being rude. If anything, I might suggest that since nothing new is being gained from this thread, it might be high time to put it to sleep. If not, you two can continue rant away...


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## comozo (Feb 7, 2006)

nero_design said:


> Because the thread was deteriorating into a "Can I use my laser for self-defense" thread. And I think you know now why they locked the thread. The same thing happens here on CPF and with GOOD reason. There's a lot of logical arguments for not allowing such a discussion to take place. It had nothing to do with the video.
> 
> And you can stop being rude. If anything, I might suggest that since nothing new is being gained from this thread, it might be high time to put it to sleep. If not, you two can continue rant away...



I check my facts before I post to the best of my ability, with that said no other reply within that thread inquired about using a laser for self-defense you mis-remember.
You misstake my directness for rudeness, I'm am always civil, always.


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## tysonb (Feb 7, 2006)

If anyone wants me to hold their lasers in Canada for a while, let me know 

In all seriousness, if people are looking to get rid of them, send them here. I will give them back if you want them later.

tyson


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## Athoul (Feb 7, 2006)

The thread that was locked had not been deleted right away. Wicked stated that they were looking into it and pulled the video until they finished. If it was a legit video they would have put it back up. Nothing else needed to be said so the topic was ended. Also there were many posts in that thread which were basically useless arguing about if it was a IR laser or not. However again since Wicked acknowledged that it might not have been a legit submission, they addressed it in the thread and hence the topic was closed. I don't see anything wrong with that.. and it seems to be blown way out of proportion by some people.

Personally I have had no problem with any of their laser products, not to say I have had problems with other companies products either. However there is no reason people should be bashing them any more then any other company that sells portable lasers above 5mW.

You can not sell 3b lasers in the USA unless they meet the safety requirments by the CDRH, however there is no law saying you can not buy a laser that does not meet these requirements from outside of the country. To operate a laser in PUBLIC or for COMMERCIAL use you need a variance as a owner/user of the laser. In your own home there is no law that says you need a variance to own/operate a laser(however I have no doubt this will change very soon). Public means anywhere outside off your own property including shining your laser up into the airspace above your property(you do not own airspace above your property). Thus anyone owning any class 3b or greater lasers without a variance outside off of their property is potentially breaking the law, regardless of if the laser has safety features or not or what company they bought it from.

The loophole here is that there is no law that says you can't use one in your own home, but there is no law that says you can either. However unitl there is a law that says you can't it's legal.


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## Kiessling (Feb 7, 2006)

I think this thread has served its puspose and is now going downhill with personal attacks, suggested agendas et al
I'll close it now, but feel free to open a new thread on such topics if anything new and worthy of discussion becomes known.
bernhard


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