# led more powerfull than ssc p7??



## moviles

im luking for most powerfull 3.7v or 12v powered led of the world (i prefer 3.7v)
i have ssc p7 flashlights but i want more power in my hand






i find this 12 v 1400lum 20w led , 20mm like p7 stars




http://www.leds-and-more.de/catalog...d=837&osCsid=a79bed2c397ec1edb39c039d4c8ed91d

but i cant find 3.7v 20-30w or 12v 30-100w leds(i know current draw will be hight)

all 50-500w leds are powered with 35v
http://www.eleclight.cn/power_led_50w_500w.htm


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## Gunner12

What will you use the LED for?

Also remember that the LED will have a very floody beam and require a lot of heatsinking and a capable powersource.


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## moviles

Gunner12 said:


> What will you use the LED for?
> 
> Also remember that the LED will have a very floody beam and require a lot of heatsinking and a capable powersource.


i will use the led for flashlight, the p7 have a floody beam too


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## Marduke

Depending on what light you already have, there may be others out there with the same LED which are already perhaps 2x as bright. 

The one you pictured is small, which makes me think it's not driven to max spec.

Also, you won't be able to get much brighter in a small flashlight package. You can dissipate only so much heat.


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## BBnet3000

Marduke said:


> Also, you won't be able to get much brighter in a small flashlight package. You can dissipate only so much heat.


this + you need a larger reflector for more throw, otherwise it will effectively just be a retardedly bright area light


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## chew socks

What about the Osram 6 die LED.....I don't know much about it, but maybe someone else can come in and talk about it.


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## moviles

chew socks said:


> What about the Osram 6 die LED.....I don't know much about it, but maybe someone else can come in and talk about it.


the osram led its powered with 20-25v:shakehead i want powered with 3.7v or 12v




http://www.leds-and-more.de/catalog...d=736&osCsid=a79bed2c397ec1edb39c039d4c8ed91d

its 1100lum and 22w


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## Gunner12

How long will you have the light on? A few seconds should be fine but a few minutes could cause the light to heat up a lot and maybe damage the LED.

Also are you thinking about using the 12v tiny batteries? Those will sag a lot or maybe not even work at the high currents these LEDs need.

Just buy a few Cree MC-Es or Seoul P7s, make sure they have similar Vfs, and wire them in parallel on a fitting chunk of metal (fitting meaning will fit in the light). No reflector because you'll get a really floody light either way. Make sure the battery can handle the current though or you could have a dead battery and maybe venting.


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## moviles

Gunner12 said:


> How long will you have the light on? A few seconds should be fine but a few minutes could cause the light to heat up a lot and maybe damage the LED.
> 
> Also are you thinking about using the 12v tiny batteries? Those will sag a lot or maybe not even work at the high currents these LEDs need.
> 
> Just buy a few Cree MC-Es or Seoul P7s, make sure they have similar Vfs, and wire them in parallel on a fitting chunk of metal (fitting meaning will fit in the light). No reflector because you'll get a really floody light either way. Make sure the battery can handle the current though or you could have a dead battery and maybe venting.


15-20min runtime like my ultrafire c3 p7 its ok , i prefer 3.7v led (12v its the last chance) i want use 18650 batteries
make one multi p7 flashlight its the last chance if i dont find other led arround 20-30w powered with 3.7v or 20-50w led powered with 12v


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## Marduke

moviles said:


> 15-20min runtime like my ultrafire c3 p7 its ok , i prefer 3.7v led (12v its the last chance) i want use 18650 batteries
> make one multi p7 flashlight its the last chance if i dont find other led arround 20-30w powered with 3.7v or 20-50w led powered with 12v




So you modded your UF C3 with a P7? No wonder you're disappointed with the output.

Get a REAL MC-E or P7 light and it should be many times brighter.


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## moviles

Marduke said:


> So you modded your UF C3 with a P7? No wonder you're disappointed with the output.
> 
> Get a REAL MC-E or P7 light and it should be many times brighter.


lol,the output of my great ultrafire c3 p7 its very very powerfull more than many other p7 flashlights




4.2v x3.47 amp = 14 w :devil: 
now i want more power but powered with 18650 batteries


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## Marduke

moviles said:


> lol,the output of my great ultrafire c3 p7 its very very powerfull more than many other p7 flashlights
> 
> 4.2v x3.47 amp = 14 w :devil:
> now i want more power but powered with 18650 batteries



Pretty sure something is a little off there. That is WAY over amp spec and rather impossible for direct drive, and there is no way a 14500 cell can hold that voltage under any sort of load.

3.47v perhaps??


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## moviles

Marduke said:


> Pretty sure something is a little off there. That is WAY over amp spec and rather impossible for direct drive, and there is no way a 14500 cell can hold that voltage under any sort of load.
> 
> 3.47v perhaps??


its 3.47 amp not 3.47v




lol 3.74 amp here, more power
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/225350


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## yellow

the meter is set on Amperes, so it should be draw
(even when I also wonder how a 14500 sould give this current)


but one idea: have it run - just as shown in pic with You holding the little light in Your hand + checking current - for 10 mins. Use external batt when the cell does not stant the discharge.

then, when Your hand has wide are blisters from the red hot light at 10 mins, get some ice and bandage for Your hand, and think of the weight a multi-P7 light must have to run the led safely and cool for 30 mins




PS: You need a much deeper reflector. It just focuses the light it can catch and that short, small one is crap.


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## Marduke

moviles said:


> its 3.47 amp not 3.47v
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lol 3.74 amp here, more power
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/225350



And are you measuring the current draw, or the drive current? It appears you are measuring current draw.

BIG difference.

EXACTLY what cell setup are you using?


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## moviles

yellow said:


> the meter is set on Amperes, so it should be draw
> (even when I also wonder how a 14500 sould give this current)
> 
> 
> but one idea: have it run - just as shown in pic with You holding the little light in Your hand + checking current - for 10 mins. Use external batt when the cell does not stant the discharge.
> 
> then, when Your hand has wide are blisters from the red hot light at 10 mins, get some ice and bandage for Your hand, and think of the weight a multi-P7 light must have to run the led safely and cool for 30 mins
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PS: You need a much deeper reflector. It just focuses the light it can catch and that short, small one is crap.


hahahah yes its very hot flashlight, continium runtime dont must be more than 8 min and total runtime its arround 15-18 min, its a floody beam flashlight

but stop talk about my great ultafire c3 p7 and lets find the most powerfull led powered with 3.7v


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## moviles

Marduke said:


> And are you measuring the current draw, or the drive current? It appears you are measuring current draw.
> 
> BIG difference.
> 
> EXACTLY what cell setup are you using?


its direct drived i measuring current draw to the led, the battery of my ultrafire c3 p7 are reversed because the back of the P7 is internal connected to the + side.
the battey its 14500 protected








stop talk about my great ultafire c3 p7 and lets find the most powerfull led powered with 3.7v


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## Benson

I'm pretty sure that's _not_ a protected cell; you're running it at at least 4C, so it should cut out. If it is a protected cell, the protection circuit has failed, and it's just as dangerous as an unprotected cell. There's a serious risk of explosion or fire while you're holding that little firecracker.

DX, at least, sells some Trustfire cells that are labeled as protected, but actually aren't; I think you may have some of those. DX does warn that they're unprotected, but it could be easily overlooked, and less scrupulous vendors could not notify you at all.

EDIT: I'm not in any way denigrating the awesomeness of the concept of that light, but LiCo is *not* a suitable chemistry to use. You could do a similar upgrade in a CR123, 18500, or 18650 host, where you could use AW's IMR cells, with a LiMn chemistry that's safe for these discharge rates, but AFAIK there are no 3.7V 14500 cells made with safe high-drain chemistries.


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## marschw

Are you planning on using this higher-power-than-p7 LED in the C3 host? If so, what was your plan for supplying it with 12v?


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## yellow

at the moment there is no led that is more powerful than a P7 / MC-E, not even the 6-die Osram.
(lets better say: "as is known" not the Osram)

ways to get more light were:
* using more of these quad-led, or
* *using a deeper reflector *--> f.e. that joke used as a _reflector_ might, at best, catch 5 % (?) of the light emittet.

If one grabs a deeper one - say with a modded Maglite - that catches 30 % (just a guess!!!) of the light and focuses this, one light (with the current draw of just ONE quad-led) will be equally bright than a bunch of the "original" lights
(not at short area spill, but in the focused beam)


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## Marduke

I'm gonna say that a _PROPER_ P7 light will be more powerful than what you have. Your numbers are rather impossible for how you are driving it, which tells me a proper light will probably be roughly twice as bright.


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## ergotelis

Marduke said:


> I'm gonna say that a _PROPER_ P7 light will be more powerful than what you have. Your numbers are rather impossible for how you are driving it, which tells me a proper light will probably be roughly twice as bright.



I think that smaller batteries have less resistance,that is why i think they can provide such a high current. But in that case, you are taking the risk of an explosion..... A great in output/size flashlight but a great explosion is possible too...


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## Marduke

ergotelis said:


> I think that smaller batteries have less resistance,that is why i think they can provide such a high current. But in that case, you are taking the risk of an explosion..... A great in output/size flashlight but a great explosion is possible too...



The opposite is generally true. Such a small cell under such a high load would sag horribly in voltage. I would expect the voltage to be 3.2-3.5v under that load, DEFINITELY not 4.2v.


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## John_Galt

Dude, I'm pretty sure that you are holding the equivalent of a stick of dynamite, with a lit fuse, every time you turn that thing on. (I certainly wouldn't want to be standing next to you when that explodes.)

If you want brighter, you will either have to go with a multi emmiter light, as mentioned above, or GET A LARGER REFLECTOR. You are probably wasting more than 50% of the output of that LED with that tiny reflector. 

Also, no offense, and I realize that English may not be your main language, but please try to be a little more grammatical, ok?


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## John_Galt

moviles said:


> its direct drived i measuring current draw to the led, the battery of my ultrafire c3 p7 are reversed because the back of the P7 is internal connected to the + side.
> the battey its 14500 protected
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> stop talk about my great ultafire c3 p7 and lets find the most powerfull led powered with 3.7v



Dude, it looks like you've melted the circuitry and/or power contacts from the combination of supremely overdriven LED, and high voltage. Be carefull with that.


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## moviles

Benson said:


> I'm pretty sure that's _not_ a protected cell; you're running it at at least 4C, so it should cut out. If it is a protected cell, the protection circuit has failed, and it's just as dangerous as an unprotected cell. There's a serious risk of explosion or fire while you're holding that little firecracker.
> 
> DX, at least, sells some Trustfire cells that are labeled as protected, but actually aren't; I think you may have some of those. DX does warn that they're unprotected, but it could be easily overlooked, and less scrupulous vendors could not notify you at all.
> 
> EDIT: I'm not in any way denigrating the awesomeness of the concept of that light, but LiCo is *not* a suitable chemistry to use. You could do a similar upgrade in a CR123, 18500, or 18650 host, where you could use AW's IMR cells, with a LiMn chemistry that's safe for these discharge rates, but AFAIK there are no 3.7V 14500 cells made with safe high-drain chemistries.



...... my batteries are protected, and protection system works allways, when v battery its < 2.75v after 18 minutes runtime protectiom system cut off , 
if i shotcircuit or overload(5A or more) the battery protection system cutoff too




protected batteries:
you can see bottom of batteries





unprotected batteries:
unprotected, do you see difference?


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## moviles

Marduke said:


> The opposite is generally true. Such a small cell under such a high load would sag horribly in voltage. I would expect the voltage to be 3.2-3.5v under that load, DEFINITELY not 4.2v.


internal resistance of battery: <= 100 milli ohm
the voltage of batrery its > 4v the first 12 min:





the current its 3.5-3A the first 12 minutes

4.2v -----3.5A
4v--------3A 
3.7v------2.8a
3.5v------1.7A
3.2v------0.7A
.........stop talk about my great ultrafire c3 p7 ,i use it evrydais since 3 months ,and lets find other leds


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## mdocod

I'm very curious about that ultra-fire cell you are using. The performance you are getting from it, in both current and runtime suggest that it is not a LiCo cell. 

I'm betting you are using a very low Vf LED though. 

-Eric


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## moviles

marschw said:


> Are you planning on using this higher-power-than-p7 LED in the C3 host? If so, what was your plan for supplying it with 12v?


if i find this higher-power-than-p7 LED (3.7v)i will put it here




http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.15969
powered with 18650

power supply for 12 v leds will be 3x14500(20-30W leds) or 3x18650(30-50w leds).... but i want small i have too the tactical hid 24w and i hate it because its too big and not much more powerfull than my ultrafire c3 p7 (1.5x 2x)





tactical hid 24w(too big), aurora p7, jetbeam jet 1 pro v2(i love it:4850 lum-1m), ultrafire c3 p7(i love it too)


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## ergotelis

Marduke said:


> The opposite is generally true. Such a small cell under such a high load would sag horribly in voltage. I would expect the voltage to be 3.2-3.5v under that load, DEFINITELY not 4.2v.



Yes, you are right in that, there is also the voltage drop.
By the time he is getting such a small runtime and high output the numbers seem to be ok. Maybe he bought a very low vf led.

But he still can't understand the danger of his project. It is like holding a bomb and waiting to explode. All of us are taking so many precautions for li-on batteries.Even if these numbers are wrong, i would be afraid to do what he did. This guy is driving it at least 3x max suggested current, not taking in account the heat from the led that goes to the battery.


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## marschw

moviles said:


> jetbeam jet 1 pro v2(i love it:4850 lum-1m)


Heh, I'm guessing you mean lux?


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## Marduke

ergotelis said:


> Yes, you are right in that, there is also the voltage drop.
> By the time he is getting such a small runtime and high output the numbers seem to be ok. Maybe he bought a very low vf led.
> 
> But he still can't understand the danger of his project. It is like holding a bomb and waiting to explode. All of us are taking so many precautions for li-on batteries.Even if these numbers are wrong, i would be afraid to do what he did. This guy is driving it at least 3x max suggested current, not taking in account the heat from the led that goes to the battery.



I think it's a moot point. There is obviously some barrier here which is preventing the understanding that the P7/MC-E is already the highest power quad die LED, and the project in general (especially the host of choice) is absolutely ludicrous. 

Oh well, it's no my hand being blown off here....


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## moviles

marschw said:


> Heh, I'm guessing you mean lux?








the jetbeam jet 1 pro v2 its the 14500 throw king, 4850 lum -1m world record


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## moviles

Marduke said:


> I think it's a moot point. There is obviously some barrier here which is preventing the understanding that the P7/MC-E is already the highest power quad die LED, and the project in general (especially the host of choice) is absolutely ludicrous.
> 
> Oh well, it's no my hand being blown off here....


this led its more powerfull but i need 12v 3xaa (3x14500)
1400 lum-20w





lets find other more powerfull leds


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## Marduke

moviles said:


> the jetbeam jet 1 pro v2 its the 14500 throw king, 4850 lum -1m world record



"lum" (lumens) does not equal lux. That chart is LUX.



moviles said:


> this led its more powerfull but i need 12v 3xaa (3x14500)
> 1400 lum-20w
> 
> 
> lets find other more powerfull leds



:shakehead

Lost cause. I give up. I wish someone else better luck...


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## marschw

Lux measures the ammount of light at a particular location; it's not necessarily related to the total ammount of light that comes out of a flashlight. Lumines measures the total ammount of light coming out of a flashlight, and requires expensive equipment (an integrating sphere) to measure. 4850 lumens would be more than most HID searchlights...


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## ergotelis

1m throw king with 14500 is regalight edc with hawk snipe head, 15000+ lux

3x14500 for 20watt output is like puting 3 bombs together, waiting for one of the three to explode and then to be followed by the other 2. Or you mean that you would like to find a led that is 20watt and can be powered by single 14500?


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## Gunner12

It clearly says 4850 *LUX* *not* *Lumen*.

Lux is intensity. Lumen it total output. Lux is like how high a mountain is, lumen is how much rock is in each mountain.

The Regalight EDS with the turbo head also has over 10,000 LUX, so it throws further then the Jetbeam. It is a production light so it is comparible.

Also you don't seem to realize the dangers of pushing a Li-ion battery that far or the limits of how much heat you can pack into a small size before the LED burns out.

Another thing, the rules say pictures have to be 800x600 or less and rules also say no hotlinking images, which is also what you have done.


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## Benson

moviles said:


> the jetbeam jet 1 pro v2 its the 14500 throw king, 4850 lum -1m world record



It's lux, not "lum", and pasting what you wrote before doesn't make it any less incorrect.

Why don't you just use 6 14250s or something-- you could get double the voltage, and be no less within the safe operating parameters of the cells


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## Mjolnir

I'm pretty sure you would need a 50 watt HID to get 4850 lumens. 

What do you "need" a brighter LED for? You will probably not find anything all that much brighter than a P7. Even if it is brighter, your eye will probably not notice the difference easily, and it will not be any more useful. A good P7 light with a real 700+ lumen output should be more than enough to do what you want an LED light to do. Anything brighter and you will have to go to HID (which you already have) or a larger multi multi-die setup. Getting "the brightest light in the smallest package" doesn't seem to be too safe with the size of light you are working with. Putting an even higher output LED in a light that small would make it more dangerous, but not more useful.


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## Outdoors Fanatic

This thread is a real gem!! Darwin Awards meets CPF...


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## MWClint

Hey there..

instead of trying to find something that does not exist...improve on what you have previously built and you will find some success. :twothumbs

here's an idea that will run longer and have more useful light output than
what you currently have.

1. find an 18650 host light with a 20mm+ reflector. probably over 100 choices on dx/kai.

2. Get a Ledil-s p7 boom reflector to replace it..it's only 20mm wide x 14mm tall.
The shortened height (14mm vs standard reflectors) of the ledil-s will allow 
you to increase the thickness of the heatsink. This is good for obvious 
reasons.

3. use a high quality battery when seeing high amp draw...~$12 for an AW 18650 is cheap and good (ultrafire is not a high quality battery manufacturer).
and you can use it in your ultrafire charger.


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## Daylight

Hi guys, first of all my english is not good, please understand it.

In your opinion Moviles mod is dangerous because he is in the 4C range in his 14500...and his hand will disapear in the next days :sick2: (During the past 3 months he was a lucky man)

It's only an example but what do you think about this: 

Wee LE CREE XRE R2 *100 lumens*, it's feeding 400mA from the 10180 li ion cell *unprotected 90 mAh *(there isn't any driver, only 1 Ohm resistance) *THIS IS 4.4C* :green: !!!! Even if it is during the first 3 minutes...

Someone of you had advertised to Rob that he is manufacturing potentially little bombs? 

Someone meet of any boom!! wee case? I'm not.

Opinions?


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## Marduke

Daylight said:


> Hi guys, first of all my english is not good, please understand it.
> 
> In your opinion Moviles mod is dangerous because he is in the 4C range in his 14500...and his hand will disapear in the next days :sick2: (During the past 3 months he was a lucky man)
> 
> It's only an example but what do you think about this:
> 
> Wee LE CREE XRE R2 *100 lumens*, it's feeding 400mA from the 10180 li ion cell *unprotected 90 mAh *(there isn't any driver, only 1 Ohm resistance) *THIS IS 4.4C* :green: !!!! Even if it is during the first 3 minutes...
> 
> Someone of you had advertised to Rob that he is manufacturing potentially little bombs?
> 
> Someone meet of any boom!! wee case? I'm not.
> 
> Opinions?



Stored energy is over 8 times less, and the heat buildup is not as much of an issue.

It's also not a homemade hackjob.


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## old4570

My R2 pill is drawing 1.1Amp . 

Anyway , you want more power .. If you dont have a smooth reflector try a aspheric lens , I have one for my R2's and it triples output / throw .. 

Or just build a custom flashlight , I was looking at this one ... But I dont know the size ...http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.5876

And then there is this one , http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.5848

I was thinking of making a battery pack from AA nicads . 

This one http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.5766
But DX gives so little information , dimensions would be nice ... 

But something for the future , if I ever get another lathe .


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## John_Galt

Marduke said:


> "lum" (lumens) does not equal lux. That chart is LUX.
> 
> 
> 
> :shakehead
> 
> Lost cause. I give up. I wish someone else better luck...


 
Again, not to be mean, but 1) please try to be slightly more grammatically correct, and 2) There *IS NOT* a multi emmiter LED more powerful than a P7. It does not exist, so noone will ever be able to find it. Also, *YOU ARE HOLDING A STICK OF DYNAMITE!!!













*iT IS DANGEROUS TO ATTEMPT TO PULL THAT MUCH CURRENT FROM A SINGLE CELL IN SUCH A SMALL PACKAGE. At the very least, if you want more output, get a larger flashlight, and USE A LARGER REFLECTOR, as mentioned above. Also be sure to properly heatsink the LED, or it will FRY!!!


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## moviles

Marduke said:


> "lum" (lumens) does not equal lux. That chart is LUX.



true, its 4800 lux- 1m not lumens


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## bigchelis

You can overdrive the P7 or MC-E at higher than reccomened currents, but you will not always get more lumens with more current. At some point the LED will create so much heat that it hurts its performance.

More current does not mean more Lumens. In fact too much heat might even take lumens away. 
More current gives you more heat.
More heat can be dangerous.

I used to think I had the most powerfull LED in the most compact size, but the heat build up negates the advantage of high current.
See below my 3in Surefire 3P parts with Malkoff MC-E direct drive at 4.56amps is suppose to make over 1000 lumens, but it did 457 lumens out the front on turn on with the bigger IMR 18650. In the picture below I had a IMR 16340.



Here is the Malkoff MC-E direct drive, Nailbender P7, and DX MC-E.


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## moviles

ergotelis said:


> 1m throw king with 14500 is regalight edc with hawk snipe head, 15000+ lux


true, but the head is too large, that not pocket flashlight










for this size I prefer the tiablo a9 with colimador head (66900 lux)


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## Outdoors Fanatic




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## NoFair

Daylight said:


> Hi guys, first of all my english is not good, please understand it.
> 
> In your opinion Moviles mod is dangerous because he is in the 4C range in his 14500...and his hand will disapear in the next days :sick2: (During the past 3 months he was a lucky man)
> 
> It's only an example but what do you think about this:
> 
> Wee LE CREE XRE R2 *100 lumens*, it's feeding 400mA from the 10180 li ion cell *unprotected 90 mAh *(there isn't any driver, only 1 Ohm resistance) *THIS IS 4.4C* :green: !!!! Even if it is during the first 3 minutes...
> 
> Someone of you had advertised to Rob that he is manufacturing potentially little bombs?
> 
> Someone meet of any boom!! wee case? I'm not.
> 
> Opinions?


 
The danger isn't while running the light it is when charging the cell later. Life expectancy of that cell might not be the greatest...

There are a lot of misconceptions about li-ion safety, but most people are erring on the side of caution so it isn't a biggie 

Sverre


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## Daylight

John_Galt said:


> Also, *YOU ARE HOLDING A STICK OF DYNAMITE!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *iT IS DANGEROUS TO ATTEMPT TO PULL THAT MUCH CURRENT FROM A SINGLE CELL IN SUCH A SMALL PACKAGE.


 
What do you think about your reasoning if we apply it to a wee le 100lumens?????


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## Daylight

NoFair said:


> The danger isn't while running the light it is when charging the cell later. Life expectancy of that cell might not be the greatest...
> 
> There are a lot of misconceptions about li-ion safety, but most people are erring on the side of caution so it isn't a biggie
> 
> Sverre


 
Then the most danger for *moviles* would be buy 14500 each month, week, days... i think he will has his two hands safe for a long time


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## moviles

ok, no way to find other led(3.7v powered) more powerfull than p7

Options: put the p7 inside this powered by a 18650

is not dangerous, 40 min runtime, and is pocket sice too, I have ordered one in dx
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.15969








opcion b 
put this led inside some flashlight powered with 3xaa 3x14500, (12v)






the max current draw = 20w/12v = 1,8 amp max. not dangerous, the current draw of my jetbeam jet 1 pro v2 is 1.87 amp too when the voltage of the battery is arround 2.8v
jet 1 pro v2 current draw:
1.2v--2.3a(1aa)
2.4v--2.15a(2aa)
2.8v--1.87a(1x14500)
3.6v--1.43a(1x14500)
4.2v--1.26a(1x14500)


option c
*find other leds!!*


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## Outdoors Fanatic




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## Daylight

Moviles, do you have ultra cool modder license? If not, you wouldn't must to play in this league...


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## Painful Chafe

This thread is very funny. This is how evolution weeds out the herd.


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## Daylight

Painful Chafe said:


> This thread is very funny. This is how evolution weeds out the herd.


 

:tsk:


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## Marduke

Outdoors Fanatic said:


>





I just hope this guy doesn't live in an apartment complex, where the inevitable fire he WILL create doesn't injure or kill others...

Otherwise I see no real downside to this behavior...


----------



## moviles

this thread its for find and compare hight power 3.7v and 12v leds not for talk about my great ultrafire c3 p7


----------



## John_Galt

Daylight said:


> What do you think about your reasoning if we apply it to a wee le 100lumens?????



No, the battery is also much smaller in capacity. I understand that there is a lot of energy in those 18650's. I'm just saying, I wouldn't want to be standing nearby if a battery exploded.


----------



## marschw

IMO there are 2 reasons that there aren't 1s (about 3.7v) LEDs that are significantly brighter than P7. Firstly, all of the dice would have to be in parallel, and thus would need to have very close to the same Vf. Having such stringent requirements cuts manufacturing yield way down, so the LED would have to be exorbitantly expensive. Secondly, any light with adequate cooling for so powerful an LED would also be big enough to have more than one battery, so you could put them in series and be dealing with a higher voltage (and thus be able to use at least 2s or probably 4s dice).

That's my guess, at least.


----------



## moviles

3200 lumens but 24v:scowl:





24v 6x18650....... 
maybe 4xp7 its better option


----------



## John_Galt

No offense, but it seems to me that you are just looking for the brightest LED's available. That's not neccassarily the smartest thing to do. Realistically, the P7 is going to be the brightest LED in that format you will find. You keep posting pics of brighter and brighter LED's, and seem to have no thought for how they will be focused. A P7 LED, with a GOOD reflector, can be had in a relatively small format.
Other than an Aspheric lens, or custom (as in $$$$$) reflector (made specifically for one of these specialty LED's), how will you focus that light. A wall of several thousand lumens will be unusable if you can't focus it, to meet your needs.


----------



## Daylight

Moviles

*take a look*


Apart, talking about multi die leds, maybe today the p7 is one of the most efficient led in the market if not the best, i say best lumen/watt ratio.


----------



## moviles

Daylight said:


> Moviles
> 
> *take a look*
> 
> 
> Apart, talking about multi die leds, maybe today the p7 is one of the most efficient led in the market if not the best, i say best lumen/watt ratio.


good link ty


----------



## moviles

were to buy the p7 900 lum bin d or e pure write???

this p7 from dx its not 900 lum version
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.11809

maybe this other its the 900 lum version ...but are bin c (800lum only).....and vmax=3.7v ?!?! not 4.2 v?!?:scowl:
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.12721


----------



## bigchelis

moviles said:


> were to buy the p7 900 lum bin d or e pure write???
> 
> this p7 from dx its not 900 lum version
> http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.11809
> 
> maybe this other its the 900 lum version ...but are bin c (800lum only).....and vmax=3.7v ?!?! not 4.2 v?!?:scowl:
> http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.12721


 

I have a Maglight D bin P7 direct drive with custom Heatsinking done by Nailbender running on 3 NiMH and after 5 minutes it gets really warm. I have to hold the bezel in my hand to help keep it cool (this is with a huge heatsink). So, unless you use a big host like a Maglight the heat will make it unlikely that you get the potential max lumens. I just ordered a Malkoff MC-E regulated because it keeps the current low and safer. I have the Malkoff MC-E direct drive, but at 4.5amps it was just wasted energy killing my LED faster. .


----------



## marschw

moviles said:


> were to buy the p7 900 lum bin d or e pure write???



http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=183633


----------



## Benson

marschw said:


> IMO there are 2 reasons that there aren't 1s (about 3.7v) LEDs that are significantly brighter than P7. Firstly, all of the dice would have to be in parallel, and thus would need to have very close to the same Vf. Having such stringent requirements cuts manufacturing yield way down, so the LED would have to be exorbitantly expensive. Secondly, any light with adequate cooling for so powerful an LED would also be big enough to have more than one battery, so you could put them in series and be dealing with a higher voltage (and thus be able to use at least 2s or probably 4s dice).
> 
> That's my guess, at least.



In my understanding, the reason these other LEDs aren't low voltage has nothing to do with use in flashlights, or even off batteries, because they're not designed for that. They're meant for light-bulb replacements and such, where 12V and up are at least as easy to get from 120V or 240V as 4V and down. The manufacturers of even the nice flashlight emitters (SSC and Cree) seem to consider the flashlight market of only minor interest.

So when nobody's thinking about batteries _at all_, the first consideration takes precedent, and they're wired in the logical series or (where voltage considerations dictate) series/parallel.


----------



## Daylight

Benson said:


> In my understanding, the reason these other LEDs aren't low voltage has nothing to do with use in flashlights, or even off batteries, because they're not designed for that. They're meant for light-bulb replacements and such, where 12V and up are at least as easy to get from 120V or 240V as 4V and down. The manufacturers of even the nice flashlight emitters (SSC and Cree) seem to consider the flashlight market of only minor interest.
> 
> So when nobody's thinking about batteries _at all_, the first consideration takes precedent, and they're wired in the logical series or (where voltage considerations dictate) series/parallel.


 
This has a lot of sense :thumbsup:


----------



## moviles

these leds10w-100w seem very small and they are very powerfull but they are powered too at 24v

http://en.hongyaled.com/newEbiz1/Eb...y&CategoryID=c373e91b97736f6e8fea0e9c688e2858

40w 24v 1.8A 2000 lum ....6x14500... damn hight voltages






60w 24v 2.5A 3200 lum.... 6x18650..damn hight voltages again!!!!







100w 32v 3.1A 5800 lum .....





what are waiting for cree for make a more powerfull led than scc p7?!?:hairpull:


----------



## ergotelis

50lm/watt! Better buy a fluorescent lamp!


----------



## moviles

ergotelis said:


> 50lm/watt! Better buy a fluorescent lamp!


the p7 has too 50lum/w or less at 5amp
and 40 lum /w at 6.5 amp

lum /w p7 bin c:























4.01 amp!!!!my ultrafire c 3 p7 give 931 lumens the first seconds with battry at 100%, now i will buy p7 bin D for get more power


----------



## mdocod

Well, you've been warned, have fun with that...


----------



## bshanahan14rulz

Ok, I figure this thread is derailed enough as it is, May I ask a quick question and then butt out? 

I see you folks talk about current draw from a battery and say "oh, that thing is drawing 3C!" What is the C? I thought current was Amperes?

edit: whoops, I didn't realize there are 3 more pages! Sorry OP!!!


----------



## Benson

bshanahan14rulz said:


> I see you folks talk about current draw from a battery and say "oh, that thing is drawing 3C!" What is the C? I thought current was Amperes?



Pedantically, that's 3C/h, or 3/h * C -- the multiplier has units of inverse time, which are usually not stated, and C is the capacity (units of current * time). This habitual omission, while plain to those in the know, probably does contribute to the common confusion among newbs regarding A vs. Ah.


----------



## ergotelis

Safe for lion is max about 1,5C for a 18650 2200mah and it is about 3,3amp.
As xxC increases, you do increase the possibility to see a nice explosion with unknown casaulties. Moviles is about at 4amp is about at 8C. But he is not taking in account the danger so many users have talked about....I feel like hearing an explosion when i read 8C....


----------



## Marduke




----------



## csshih

hey.. can't blame him.. wiring, and in this case, lumens are tasty...

hmm.. looks like a case of consumer overkill.. the consumer will do anything for the best.. I've heard of those cases.. but never seen one in person.. woah.

moville, doesnt that battery get hot at all?


----------



## AardvarkSagus

Well, I can't recommend using it in that particular setup, but I can't wait to see someone utilize a Phlatlight SST-90 in a handheld illumination tool. Same Vf as Cree (if I remember correctly) and capable of 3.2A-9A. The fact that it is a single die 3mmx3mm is pretty sweet too. I'd love to see one in something that could handle it such as the Legion II.


----------



## OddOne

Well, I dunno if this is any sort of LED record, but I did pull 131,000+ lux out of a Lamina BL3000... (Pic's here in case anyone wants to see the test rig. And yes, my desk was a total disaster during that build!) Of course it isn't a flashlight at all: the LED is mounted to a solid copper rod and set into a 6" aluminum reflector that's part of a mini spotlight for stage/theatrical applications. It threw a laserlike beam that was visible for _miles_... 

The BL3000 is old tech now, as there are far better dice and phosphors available. I'd still love to see what someone could get with an array of say 96 Cree XR-E dice.


----------



## yellow

> what are waiting for cree for make a more powerfull led than scc p7?!?:hairpull:


well, 
with single emitters the numbers on datasheet say Seoul, while the XR-E is better anyways,
so is the same with the MC-E compared to P7 (at least it is easier and much smaller to drive the series-quad die).
Nothing mystic.

Wait for the 1st better makers offering lights with the MC-E driven in series and with a good reflector, ...


PS: I dont see any problems in DRIVING those "superled" You are linking constantly.
They suck, cant be focused because of the large surface, ..., as has been mentionned a good times now. 
But what troubles do You have in driving them?
"easy" step-up driver, again nothing mystic.


----------



## Mjolnir

I don't understand why he NEEDS a brighter LED when he already has a 24 watt HID. In order to drive any LED brighter than a P7, you would need a lot of heatsinking (and a lot of batteries for these higher voltage lights), so it would probably end up larger than the HID. 
LEDs are for efficiency, not for brute brightness. That is what HID's are for.


----------



## Kestrel

Mjolnir said:


> I don't understand why he NEEDS a brighter LED when he already has a 24 watt HID.


What does need have to do with it?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icarus_(mythology)


----------



## moviles

now i think this: the best way to make a very powerful safe and very small p7 flashlight its put p7 bin D here:














only 78mm x21mm, 900 lum keychain!!!!!

and use 16340 aw imr batteries :
http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=184887

*IMR16340 Specifications :*

Nominal Voltage : 3.7V
Capacity : 550mAH 
Lowest Discharge Voltage : 2.50V
Standard Charge : CC/CV ( max. charging rate 1.5A )
Cycle Life : > 500 cycles
Max. continuous discharge rate : *8C*

8c x 0.55= 4.4 amp max
runtime will be arround 12 min


----------



## mdocod

moviles said:


> now i think this: the best way to make a very powerful safe and very small p7 flashlight its put p7 bin D here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> only 78mm x21mm, 900 lum keychain!!!!!
> 
> and use 16340 aw imr batteries :
> http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=184887
> 
> *IMR16340 Specifications :*
> 
> Nominal Voltage : 3.7V
> Capacity : 550mAH
> Lowest Discharge Voltage : 2.50V
> Standard Charge : CC/CV ( max. charging rate 1.5A )
> Cycle Life : > 500 cycles
> Max. continuous discharge rate : *8C*
> 
> 8c x 0.55= 4.4 amp max
> runtime will be arround 12 min




Exactly 
:twothumbs:

And with LiMn chemistry cells, if you exceed the maximum recommended discharge rate, all you're really doing is wearing out the cell much faster, the likelihood of explosion is still very low, and when LiMn does explode there's a lot less oomf and fire behind it. 

I would highly recommend taking your project down the LiMn road. Stepping up to an 18650 size host with an IMR18650 would be even better for practical runtimes, but the IMR16340 is a much smarter platform for you to be playing with at this point. 

-Eric


----------



## Nitroz

Now it is just a matter of which one will fail first. The cell or the LED?

I've had a p7 turn blue while testing on a huge mag HS. It's only a matter of time moviles. Live and Learn.:shakehead


----------



## Jackal-Head

John_Galt said:


> Again, not to be mean, but 1) please try to be slightly more grammatically correct, and 2) There *IS NOT* a multi emmiter LED more powerful than a P7. It does not exist, so noone will ever be able to find it.



Actually, there are, they're just not made for 3.7V. An op amp could be used to increase the voltage, but I would love to see how a single 14500 battery would deal with the required current.  From a safe distance, of course. A few post mortem photos would be great. 

Furthermore, I don't think the chapter on thermal management in the data sheet should be skipped over. The recommended heatsinks look quite impressive. :laughing:


----------



## mdocod

moviles,

If I understand the direction you are hoping to take a compact light, you probably wouldn't much care if it had any useful throw or not at this point. Most of the LEDs you have been tossing around ideas for are large format jobs that you wouldn't really be able to mount in a reflector that would have much effect on a beam of any sorts anyways...

So, with that in mind...

Have you considered mounting like 3 MCEs in the head of a small flashlight like that? You'd have to order more than 3 to match them for Vf as closely as possible, but at the end of the day, the way to get the most possible light out of such a small light is going to be a combination of moving to a more capable power source, (IMR cells), while at the same time improving efficiency at the emitters. Rather than over-drive the crap out of a P7, by wiring 3 MCEs all up in parallel you'll wind up running the emitters below maximum spec by a fair margin, but the results will be dramatically increased efficiency. You're not going to find much of any other LED on the market that could match this setup for lumens/watt.

Such a project would require some machining work be done to make a proper mounting surface, ideally of solid copper to really help wick away some heat.

1500+ lumens would be very possible if done right. Runtime would only be minutes but it would be very impressive non-the-less. 

-Eric


----------



## marschw

mdocod said:


> You'd have to order more than 3 to match them for Vf as closely as possible,


Well, he could wire them all in series instead, (assuming he's able to provide it with ~45v).


----------



## moviles

*finally I found it*!!!!!!
*sst-50 *
1250 lum 3.6v 5 amp 2.25x2.25 area 100lum/w(350ma/mm2) star 19$





http://www.luminus.com/stuff/conten...1_sst_50_w_product_datasheet_illumination.pdf
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/231495
*
sst-90 *
2250 lum 3.6v 9amp 3x3 area 100lum/w star .(can be powered by one aw18650 imr, (max 16A)) 33$





https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/224644
http://www.luminus.com/stuff/conten...2_sst_90_w_product_datasheet_illumination.pdf

the big broters:

*cst-90* *2750* lumens 13.5 amp 3.4 v(can be powered by one aw18650 imr) 




http://www.luminus.com/stuff/content...lumination.pdf

*cbm-360-w* *4500* lumens 12v






http://www.luminus.com/stuff/content...lumination.pdf

http://www.luminus.com/


----------



## Outdoors Fanatic

If you are happy about having a runtime of 10 secs and 1/4 of the theoretical claimed output due to the massive generation of heat, then go for it...


----------



## moviles

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> If you are happy about having a runtime of 10 secs and 1/4 of the theoretical claimed output due to the massive generation of heat, then go for it...



sst-90 powered with one aw 18650 imr 16amp max 1600ma/h:

1600ma/9a = .016h x60 = 10.6 minutes runtime (if the current was maintained in 9A)

2250 lum for 10 minutes its ok for me 

I can make a homemade driver ,in low runtime will be much more


----------



## Outdoors Fanatic

moviles said:


> sst-90 powered with one aw 18650 imr 16amp max 1600ma/h:
> 
> 1600ma/9a = .016h x60 = 10.6 minutes runtime (if the current was maintained in 9A)
> 
> 2250 lum for 10 minutes its ok for me
> 
> I can make a homemade driver ,in low runtime will be much more


haha! We know better around here, sorry... Just try to make that cell deliver true 1.600 mAh under 9A.

You can make a homemade driver, but you can't modify the physical laws of the universe. You can't have 2250 lumens for 10 minutes on such cells, especially not in a flashlight form factor. Cell capacity and heat are your main enemies here.


----------



## moviles

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> haha! We know better around here, sorry... Just try to make that cell deliver true 1.600 mAh under 9A.
> 
> You can make a homemade driver, but you can't modify the physical laws of the universe. You can't have 2250 lumens for 10 minutes on such cells, especially not in a flashlight form factor. Cell capacity and heat are your main enemies here.




hmmmm true, runtime will be only with aw 18650 imr at 9A:

1.35a/h /9 A= 0.15h x60 =* 9* minutes


----------



## evenchaos

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> You can make a homemade driver, but you can't modify the physical laws of the universe. You can't have 2250 lumens for 10 minutes on such cells, especially not in a flashlight form factor. Cell capacity and heat are your main enemies here.



And why not? Capacity: already replied, heat? just add a real copper heatsink, fan and some ventilation slots.


----------



## Outdoors Fanatic

evenchaos said:


> And why not? Capacity: already replied, heat? just add a real copper heatsink, fan and some ventilation slots.


Ok, then build one and have it tested in a real Integrating Sphere. Until there, I'll keep affirming that you can't crank it out real 2250 lumens out the front from such setup: (SST-90 LED + AW IMR 18650 mounted in a flashlight). And I'm willing to bet my SureFire collection on that!

Perhaps, you might be able to accomplish that in a lab using some form of cryogenic heatsinking...


----------



## moviles

I am not going to obtain 2250 lumens but I will obtain more that with a p7

without black holes in the center and better with asphericals

in the low mode runtime can be a lot


----------



## yellow

I would really be grateful for You to try them and give us Your findings


----------



## moviles

yellow said:


> I would really be grateful for You to try them and give us Your findings



we are trying to buy 
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/224644
http://avnetexpress.avnet.com/store...rohs=&storeId=500201&term=SST-90w&topSellers=


----------



## Outdoors Fanatic

moviles said:


> we are trying to buy
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/224644
> http://avnetexpress.avnet.com/store...rohs=&storeId=500201&term=SST-90w&topSellers=


That thread looks extremely interesting, but I still think those new monster LEDs are not meant and will not work properly in flashlight applications-- at least not at its full specs.


----------



## Benson

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> That thread looks extremely interesting, but I still think those new monster LEDs are not meant and will not work properly in flashlight applications-- at least not at its full specs.



That's just because _you_ think flashlights shouldn't have intercoolers with nitrous spray. _Flashlight ricers_ know better.


----------



## Gunner12

Benson said:


> That's just because _you_ think flashlights shouldn't have intercoolers with nitrous spray. _Flashlight ricers_ know better.



I wouldn't use ricer, more like flashlight tweakers. Ricers(at least in cars) more often then not, just add more "bling" and "cool" looking stuff to their car that don't add much if any performance to their car.

I think those LEDs can work at full power in a light. I'm thinking something Maglite sized with a thick heatsink.


----------



## MegaTesla

I suggest getting some A123 LiFePo batteries if you plan to draw high current from an 18650.

I buy most of my rc flying batteries from HobbyCity. They are cheap and reliable.

See here: http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/...&Product_Name=A123_Systems_18650_LiFePo4_Cell


----------



## moviles

MegaTesla said:


> I suggest getting some A123 LiFePo batteries if you plan to draw high current from an 18650.
> 
> I buy most of my rc flying batteries from HobbyCity. They are cheap and reliable.
> 
> See here: http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/...&Product_Name=A123_Systems_18650_LiFePo4_Cell



aw 18650 imr can draw 16Amp and I only need 9A for the sst-90 and 5A for sst-50


----------



## John_Galt

Attempting to heatsink one of those is going to be a B****!

Yet again, please warn everyone around you for ~ 10 meters before turning that on. And post pics of the reconstructive surgeries (to remove the molten, nearly exploded flashlight that recently melted to your hands).


----------



## RusDyr

Probably author just wanted a flash, not flashlight? =) Buy something like Canon 580EX. )


----------



## lolzertank

Maybe as part of the charging process, he can put the flashlight in the freezer? That could help for uh... 10 seconds?


----------



## BentHeadTX

Just get the "real" A123 Systems battery, I think it is 26650 size with a capacity of 2.3Ah. I know they say their "3.3V" but I go by the normal rating of 3.2V just to make it realistic. 

A guy on another forum loaded one of the 26650 M1 cells to 40 amps and the voltage fell to 3.1 volts under that 17C load. Get a shorted Mag barrel, a lot of copper, a fan and a hell of a driver. If I was going for the insane route, I'd run the cells 4 in series and run thermal protection on the LED. If you use it in your car, it will be a good source to jump start your engine in below zero weather.


----------



## Vamp

I know this post is a few months old, but I just found it, and it's a good post and helped me find those stronger leds.

If a Li-ion can't take the current (seems obvious it can't, at least not a small li-ion like the 18650), then just use a high drain Li-poly!

The LiFePO although better with the current than regular Li-ions, just suck wen it comes to capacity and are no match for Li-poly.

Okay, I know what your going to say... they are rectangular!

I see two solutions:

1) Get a fatter bodied flashlight and stick it in there (UltraFire TH-1300L or Ultrafire MCD-WF-2000F, for example)

2) Make a square section barrel (get a piece of square section aluminum tubing. For the head connection get it welded to a suitable piece of circular section tubing and thread it, for the tail cap get an end cap sold for those square tubings. Then get the corners rounded off and for the final touch, get it chrome plated!  ).

You can now get a RC airplane type li-poly that fits the tube, they will easily cope with those amps and much more.

No I didn't forget the cooling... no there is no way a normal flashlight head can dissipate enough heat, unless... you temporarily* forfeit waterproofness and stick a fan in it! Yes, make some radial fins on the heatsink and put a  20 x 20 x 10mm fan above it, drill some air intake and exit holes. * you can put a thin (don't worsen the heating) rubber sleeve around the head that you can move to cover the holes. 

Okay, I hope you liked my wacky ideas! 

Send me a PM with some pics if you build this!


----------



## LEDninja

Why 18650 when you need that much power?
Elektrolumens is using 3*10000mAH D cells.
http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=199637
He is using a 2 inch long copper heatsink.
http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/showthread.php?t=198160


----------



## Outdoors Fanatic

Vamp said:


> I know this post is a few months old, but I just found it, and it's a good post and helped me find those stronger leds.
> 
> If a Li-ion can't take the current (seems obvious it can't, at least not a small li-ion like the 18650), then just use a high drain Li-poly!
> 
> The LiFePO although better with the current than regular Li-ions, just suck wen it comes to capacity and are no match for Li-poly.
> 
> Okay, I know what your going to say... they are rectangular!
> 
> I see two solutions:
> 
> 1) Get a fatter bodied flashlight and stick it in there (UltraFire TH-1300L or Ultrafire MCD-WF-2000F, for example)
> 
> 2) Make a square section barrel (get a piece of square section aluminum tubing. For the head connection get it welded to a suitable piece of circular section tubing and thread it, for the tail cap get an end cap sold for those square tubings. Then get the corners rounded off and for the final touch, get it chrome plated!  ).
> 
> You can now get a RC airplane type li-poly that fits the tube, they will easily cope with those amps and much more.
> 
> No I didn't forget the cooling... no there is no way a normal flashlight head can dissipate enough heat, unless... you temporarily* forfeit waterproofness and stick a fan in it! Yes, make some radial fins on the heatsink and put a  20 x 20 x 10mm fan above it, drill some air intake and exit holes. * you can put a thin (don't worsen the heating) rubber sleeve around the head that you can move to cover the holes.
> 
> Okay, I hope you liked my wacky ideas!
> 
> Send me a PM with some pics if you build this!


You really don't need to mess with unstable Li-Poly chemistry, when you have safe IMR cells readily available.


----------



## alpg88

sounds interesting, thou i too doubt you can have it in flashlight form (as in tube) with no complications, you'd be more lucky if you put it into a searchlight body, than again it still wont be as bright as maxabeam, thou it sure will be unique light.
good luck with your build, hope you'll amaze us with your outcome.

or you can build a dive light with those leds, heat wont be an issue.


----------



## qwertyydude

Li-po batteries aren't unstable. They are safest cells to use under high discharge. You can easily get a 20c discharge capable cell. So a 2500 mah cell can discharge at 50 amps! All you need is a way to monitor the discharge so you don't over discharge and a hobby charger and balancer. But there's no way li-ion cells can discharge that high and be safe.


----------



## HarryN

Hi - so now we get into some real light - huh. :laughing:

Just a quick point - AW makes very nice Li Ion cells, but it is not a good idea to push the current draw past 2C. (2 x capacity). For a nominal 2.5 AH 18650 cell, this means it should be used at 5 amps max discharge.

If you run it anywhere near 4C (about 9 - 10 amps) then it should be used maybe 4-5 cycles, then tossed.

IMHO, that is an acceptable amount of use - sort of like running an Indy car.


----------



## Vamp

I did a bit of researching on the batteries and on the leds an I believe that it is extremely feasible the construction of a 6000 lumens flashlight weighting under 1kg, using the CSM-360-W (85W led)

The fan would be undispensable, but it can be a waterproof type.

The major problem is the price of the stuff! :S The led would come at about 170$ (usd) and the battery about 150$. The regulator could be made with about 50$, but the custom machined body with suitable dissipator would cost no less than 150-200$ (I don't even know how much more for HA-III annodizing) and another 30$ for a charger. So we're looking at a light that could cost >600$ just in parts (not counting labor)! Thus it could never be sold for under 1000$, maybe more, specially if there are additional features like programable modes, etc.

Do you believe that there could be a market for such flashlight?

I've seen the maxbeam and this would come at ~1/5 of the price and +- comparable performance from the 85W Led, with the aditional benefit that the led last 2-3 orders of magnitude longer than the miserable 100h of the bulb on those.

I have the skills to build part of it and know who can help me with the rest, but i'm not sure it's worth making a small production run. Why? simple, the design costs and components testing can easily push the price of the prototype to over 2000$ because everything would be made from scratch, from the circuit board thru the programing to the CAD design.

Early concept:


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## Outdoors Fanatic

qwertyydude said:


> Li-po batteries aren't unstable. They are safest cells to use under high discharge. You can easily get a 20c discharge capable cell. So a 2500 mah cell can discharge at 50 amps! All you need is a way to monitor the discharge so you don't over discharge and a hobby charger and balancer. But there's no way li-ion cells can discharge that high and be safe.


I was talking about *IMR* chemistry (LiMn), not regular Li-Ion (LiCo). Li-Poly is not safe at all, at least not for hand-held devices. Nice chemistry nor R/C cars, planes and boats, though. Yes, they are unstabale, that's why responsible R/C pilots put those battery packs inside especial Fire-Retarding safety bags made for Li-Poly. 

An AW 18650 IMR cell can handle 12.8+ Amps safely. There is no leakage, vent-with-flames nor explosion risks. Unlike Li-Poly...


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## Vamp

Outdoors Fanatic said:


> I was talking about *IMR* chemistry (LiMn), not regular Li-Ion (LiCo). Li-Poly is not safe at all, at least not for hand-held devices. Nice chemistry nor R/C cars, planes and boats, though. Yes, they are unstabale, that's why responsible R/C pilots put those battery packs inside especial Fire-Retarding safety bags made for Li-Poly.
> 
> An AW 18650 IMR cell can handle 12.8+ Amps safely. There is no leakage, vent-with-flames nor explosion risks. Unlike Li-Poly...



Li-Poly aren't dangerous unless misshandled, they are widely used in handheld devices such as cell phones, PDAs, GPS, etc. The biggest risk is the charging process, which requires a special charger. A temperature sensor can (and would) be embbed in the battery pack for added safety.

That AW's 18650 doesn't have a great capacity, better than a LiFePO4, but not fantastic. A Li-poly weighting the same will have more capacity, at least 2300 mAh and handle about 50A, which mean that at the required 6A it will run very cool.


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## bshanahan14rulz

Gotta say, vamp's got a point. I'd rather have a flashlight that ran batteries in the middle of their current capability, instead of pushing another battery close to the limit for the same results. So the flashlight will have to accommodate non-cylindrical batteries, so what?

BTW, found some nice sony Li-Polys in Macbook battery. And I also don't think they explode. pop maybe, just as a vinyl balloon might, but not explode. They'd have to contain great pressure first, which is more likely with a metal can than with a plastic bag.

It's too bad li-poly are shaped the way they are. very inconvenient for fitting into a tube


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## csshih

Vamp said:


> Early concept:



I think you should move your discussion to a new thread, perhaps to customs and modified. :wave: then you'll get more views and more discussion!!

hmm.. I have an idea of boring out the currently offered eagletac M2XC4 and modifying it? the flashlight looks very similar.


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## Vamp

I think moving the relevant posts might be a good idea, csshih! 

About modifying another flashlight, well that was my first idea, but I couldn't find any that would be easily modified to put the big heat sink in there, without making it even longer. However, I haven't discarded that option completely just yet.

Dissipating some 80W of heat on a relatively small flashlight is going to take a very effective heat sink. I was thinking on going with wider external aluminum fins and thinner internal copper ones. The cooling would be radial/axial hybrid with intake on the lower half of the heatsink and exhaust thru the front half, with deflector to the front. This would give a countercurrent cooling, which is the most effective. 

The target runtime at full power would be 20-30 minutes, and the battery pack should be exchangeable in seconds.

I would like one of these but can't really afford to make it just for myself, so like I said previously, I won't build this if there isn't enough interest, as this would require a significant investment. I guess that at least 10 would need to be manufactured, to offset the costs.


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## lolzertank

Please don't use LiPo when there are much safer alternatives. If a flashlight is draining batteries so fast that you cannot use IMR cells, you may want to consider adding cells in parallel for runtime reasons.


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## Vamp

Hi lolzertank, thanks for the input. Adding more cells was my first idea, but I checked the size and weight required, and it would make the flashlight huge and heavy!

The idea of this flashlight is to be very portable and to change battery pack really fast. then you could carry a spare pack on the belt where it is less bothersome and hold a reasonably weighted light.

I see that there is a lot of fear with the li-poly, but safety measures can be installed in the battery pack to prevent your worse fears from coming true. I was considering a 4 cell 4000mAh 14.8v pack, with individual cell monitoring, balancing and protection and thermal control. It would be a custom circuit just for the battery pack.

I don't want to tell all my ideas, so as not to ruin the surprise, but amongst the features would be battery indication and programmable modes.


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## alpg88

did someone already made 3000lm, iirc, light with lipos??? i thougt i saw a thread about it here somewhere.


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## Vamp

I'm thinking that if there is strong opposition to using the Li-po, one might always go with a 26650 size LiMnNi, but these have a 10A limit, meaning that they have higher internal resistance, meaning less capacity will be obtained at 6A and more heat will be generated, compared to the li-po. The advantages are lower cost, cylindrical form and regular charger.


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## qwertyydude

I've dealt with lipo batteries day in day out in the rc world they're as safe as li-ion batteries. In fact I'd say catastrophic failure of them is less because people are somewhat more careful and they're not sealed in metal. It's not a stick of dynamite in your hand if you take care of them as in don't overdischarge them, and with their ultra low internal resistance don't short them, I did one time and all that really happened was their contacts desoldered or they puff up but mine didn't, and don't charge a puffed battery they won't explode though unless you put them on a nimh charge cycle, you'd have to severely overcharge them for them to blow up same danger as with lithium ion.

I've crashed a helicopter and literally folded the battery in half and it still didn't blow up, it didn't even puff the cell, in fact just to see it if would I charged it and it held a charge cycle but to be safe I just stuck a nail through it, big cloud of smoke and it got hot but it still didn't explode in a ball of flames Again what's with all the fear when lithium polymer has been used safely for years in cell phones. The horror stories of li-po batteries are as rare as that exploding policemans flashlight on lithium primaries, extreme stupidity and abuse were usually the causes.


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## zcream

Is there a board light like this - 
http://www.ledwholesalers.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=405 
available with super powerful LEDs ?

I want to make a video light - really powerful, and this board uses just 1W LEDs.


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## Gunner12

zcream said:


> Is there a board light like this -
> http://www.ledwholesalers.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=405
> available with super powerful LEDs ?
> 
> I want to make a video light - really powerful, and this board uses just 1W LEDs.



You can make your own. But with a video light, you might want to use neutral white LEDs for color rendering, so maybe a bunch of neutral white Cree MC-Es on stars mounted on a aluminium plate or large heatsink could work.


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## zcream

Dont I need to make up a circuit as well..
I can buy neutral white Cree emitters, but what about the power supply ?
Is there a place that we can buy 3.7V or 12V powered prewired Cree emitters so its just a matter of wiring it to the Alum board ?


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