# 200 Lumen per Watt - Cree MK-R multi die chip



## mds82 (Dec 18, 2012)

http://www.cree.com/led-components-and-modules/products/xlamp/arrays-directional/xlamp-mkr

11.7v Forward Voltage up to 1.25 A driver current 


Only thing wrong about it so far is that the spec sheet has the wrong PCB Solder pad size.


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## foxtrot824 (Dec 18, 2012)

This looks promising...


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## evilc66 (Dec 18, 2012)

Is anyone else seeing a lot of disparities between the announcement and the datasheet? I mean, where are they getting this 200lm/W claim? Also, why is the claimed output limit only 1769lm, where the K2 would put the output at almost 2000lm at max current.


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## slebans (Dec 18, 2012)

The 200 lumens per watt is at 1 watt - somewhere between 80-100mA dependant on how the voltage drops at lower current.

If Cree is willing to stoop this low in order to derive a 200 lumens per watt headline - why didn't they do the same thing with the XM-L2 announcement a few weeks ago? My initial thought when I saw the headline is that some other manufacturer must be coming out with a similiar announcement very shortly and Cree is trying to head off the competitor's headline.


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## jtr1962 (Dec 18, 2012)

I thought 200 lm/W wasn't going to happen for a few months. oo:

These look great for general lighting. They have 5000K and 80 CRI which isn't bad at all (I might use these to retrofit some outdoor floodlights) . I wish the 90 CRI bins were available in higher CCTs. Best bins give 1040 lumens ( 127 lm/W ) @ 85°C and 1206 lumens ( 147 lm/W ) @ 25°C. If you increase current to 1.25A you'll get about 1625 lumens @ 85°C and roughly 107 lm/W. Best of all these are 4 dies in series which makes driving them much easier than a single die needing 3 or 4 amps.


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## jtr1962 (Dec 18, 2012)

slebans said:


> The 200 lumens per watt is at 1 watt - somewhere between 80-100mA dependant on how the voltage drops at lower current.
> 
> If Cree is willing to stoop this low in order to derive a 200 lumens per watt headline - why didn't they do the same thing with the XM-L2 announcement a few weeks ago? My initial thought when I saw the headline is that some other manufacturer must be coming out with a similiar announcement very shortly and Cree is trying to head off the competitor's headline.


Cree mentioned 186 lm/W @ 1W when they announced the XM-L2. Remember that when power LEDs first came out ~1 watt (350 mA) was more or less the industry standard. Cree in their press releases is simply showing how well their new LEDs do at this drive level. For what it's worth, they also mention the output at the maximum drive current and 85°C.

What I'm finding amazing is the best bins are well above 100 lm/W over their entire operating range.


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## jtr1962 (Dec 18, 2012)

By the way, mentioning the maximum efficacy an LED is capable of is very useful info in that it shows the maximum potential of whatever type of technology the LED is using. Any decreases from this maximum level are caused by heat and current density effects. Or put another way, if Cree wanted to, they could make an LED which gets 200 lm/W at any drive level by just increasing the total die area. Simple economics is the reason they don't.


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## slebans (Dec 18, 2012)

jtr1962 said:


> By the way, mentioning the maximum efficacy an LED is capable of is very useful info in that it shows the maximum potential of whatever type of technology the LED is using. Any decreases from this maximum level are caused by heat and current density effects. Or put another way, if Cree wanted to, they could make an LED which gets 200 lm/W at any drive level by just increasing the total die area. Simple economics is the reason they don't.



I had not thought of efficacy in terms of total die area - I always focussed on junction temperatures. 
Thanks for the info.


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## bose301s (Dec 18, 2012)

And boom goes the dynamite.


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## Tiresius (Dec 18, 2012)

Reminds me of their Easy White in the G2 version. It looks promising but what really got me confused is the maximum current allowed. It states 1.25a and yet, it can run up to 15W? Anyone noticed this yet?

It's definitely a lot larger than the Easy White platform--similar to that of an MC-E except it's 7x7 and not 7x9 like the MC-E.


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## bose301s (Dec 18, 2012)

Tiresius said:


> Reminds me of their Easy White in the G2 version. It looks promising but what really got me confused is the maximum current allowed. It states 1.25a and yet, it can run up to 15W? Anyone noticed this yet?
> 
> It's definitely a lot larger than the Easy White platform--similar to that of an MC-E except it's 7x7 and not 7x9 like the MC-E.


1.25A * 11.7V = 14.625W, so yes, it is 15W.


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## Tiresius (Dec 18, 2012)

bose301s said:


> 1.25A * 11.7V = 14.625W, so yes, it is 15W.



So this is a low current emitter designed to produce almost 2k lumens at the emitter?


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## spencer (Dec 19, 2012)

Ya.

Basic recap for those who may not know.

A die for an LED has a forward voltage of about 3V. How much current it can take is largely a function of its area. The more area it has the more current it can handle (generally). (ex. 5mm LEDs have small die and can only take 20mA while the SST-90 has a huge die and can take lots of current, 9A IIRC). In this case the LED has 4 small dies wired in series. 4x3V = 12V (close enough). Since the dies are smaller they can only handle a smaller amount of current, in this case 1.25A. This would be very similar to having 4 XR-E's wired in series. The voltage is close to 12V and the string can only take 1A (as per specs).

I hope this helps those who may not know.


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## Gunner12 (Dec 19, 2012)

Maybe they have 4 EZ1400 dies in the light. That'll make it have a similar current limit to the XP-G (1.5 A vs 1.25 A). Since there are more dies closer together, the current rating could be lower to keep heat manageable.


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## Hooked on Fenix (Dec 19, 2012)

Looks like this l.e.d. would work great for replacing 100 watt bulbs or 23-26 watt (100 watt equivalent) florescent bulbs. 15 watts is at least a 8 watt savings over the 100 watt equivalent florescent bulb or about a 35% reduction in power consumption (probably less after circuitry losses). If these are cheap enough to use more than one per bulb, we might get closer to 150-200 lumens/watt efficiency for the bulb. I was hoping that I could get an l.e.d. flashlight with a 200+ lumen/watt l.e.d. once they became available. I don't think this l.e.d. will be going into many flashlights anytime soon. I think my best bet is to wait for higher bins of the XM-L2 as they become available.

With the voltage being near 12 volts, these may also possibly work for car l.e.d. headlight, power failure lights, and low voltage lighting.


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## Rogerstalker (Dec 19, 2012)

I think that the MK-R is 4 XP-G2s wired in series and the current limit is lower than 1.5 because the dies are too close to each other. Just like in the case of the csm-360.
Also the low Vf supports this theory


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## jtr1962 (Dec 19, 2012)

Hooked on Fenix said:


> Looks like this l.e.d. would work great for replacing 100 watt bulbs or 23-26 watt (100 watt equivalent) florescent bulbs. 15 watts is at least a 8 watt savings over the 100 watt equivalent florescent bulb or about a 35% reduction in power consumption (probably less after circuitry losses). If these are cheap enough to use more than one per bulb, we might get closer to 150-200 lumens/watt efficiency for the bulb.


For longevity reasons these would probably be run at no more than 700 mA ( ~8 watts ). That would imply at least 2 in a 100 watt equivalent lamp. At 700 mA, two LEDs of any bin G4 or better ( or G2 if you can reduce the die temperature) would put out enough light to match 100 watts of incandescent.

If you look at the best currently available bin (J2), you can more or less match 100 watts of incandescent (1600 lumens) with any of the following:

1 LED @ 1250 mA - 107 lm/W - 10.2 watts waste heat
2 LEDs @ 550 mA - 126 lm/W - 7.9 watts waste heat
3 LEDs @ 350 mA - 136 lm/W - 7.0 watts waste heat
4 LEDs @ 250 mA - 144 lm/W - 6.3 watts waste heat
5 LEDs @ 190 mA - 153 lm/W - 5.6 watts waste heat
8 LEDs @ 115 mA - 163 lm/W - 5.0 watts waste heat
10 LEDs @ 85 mA - 178 lm/W - 4.2 watts waste heat

Note that I assume Tj of 85° in all cases and use a LER of 330 lm/W to calculate waste heat. Most like Tj would approach room temperature at lower currents, meaning efficiency would approach 200 lm/W. In any case, you're looking at 10 LEDs to reach maximum efficiency. For economic reasons this wouldn't make much sense. 2 to 4 LEDs seems to be a good compromise between cost and efficiency.



> I was hoping that I could get an l.e.d. flashlight with a 200+ lumen/watt l.e.d. once they became available. I don't think this l.e.d. will be going into many flashlights anytime soon. I think my best bet is to wait for higher bins of the XM-L2 as they become available.


The voltage on the XM-L2 is also better matched to the typical lithium-ion battery voltage. The MK-R would require a boost driver in most cases, sacrificing efficiency. 



> With the voltage being near 12 volts, these may also possibly work for car l.e.d. headlight, power failure lights, and low voltage lighting.


These are definitely suited for automotive use. Because the forward voltage is only about 1 volt less than is typical for most automotive electrical systems, you can get away with a super simple linear constant current driver and still have ~90% driver efficiency.


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## SemiMan (Dec 20, 2012)

jtr1962 said:


> If you look at the best currently available bin (J2), you can more or less match 100 watts of incandescent (1600 lumens) with any of the following:
> 
> These are definitely suited for automotive use. Because the forward voltage is only about 1 volt less than is typical for most automotive electrical systems, you can get away with a super simple linear constant current driver and still have ~90% driver efficiency.




Except if you are matching 100W Incan you are doing it at 3000K and the best orderable 3000K, 80CRI bin is G4.

For automotive, 11.7 is typ, 14 is max and Cree has never been real good (read amenable) to voltage based binning so I don't see this in automotive at least not a volume application without a switcher.

Semiman


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## Tiresius (Dec 20, 2012)

Hooked on Fenix said:


> With the voltage being near 12 volts, these may also possibly work for car l.e.d. headlight, power failure lights, and low voltage lighting.



I always deny myself of using them on car headlights because US DOT regulations prohibits any modifications to a car's exterior lighting. It must an OEM replacement, not mods. Though, I'm sure you could do the mod for inside cargo light as the car cannot be driven with an open trunk?


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## Hooked on Fenix (Dec 20, 2012)

Tiresius said:


> I always deny myself of using them on car headlights because US DOT regulations prohibits any modifications to a car's exterior lighting. It must an OEM replacement, not mods. Though, I'm sure you could do the mod for inside cargo light as the car cannot be driven with an open trunk?



I wasn't planning on modding my car headlights. I know it's not allowed. However, I think these l.e.d.s have the potential to be used in the next generation of OEM car headlights. Might make hybrid and electric cars more energy/fuel efficient. In a lot of places now, you can get a $200+ ticket for not having your car headlights on in broad daylight. This takes away the fuel savings of a hybrid car as they can't run on battery alone with the power draining headlights on. You get the increased cost of a hybrid, the increased cost of maintenance, and no savings from fuel efficiency. L.e.d. headlights have the potential to save new car owners money from using less fuel in the newest generation of hybrid and electric vehicles.


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## Tiresius (Dec 21, 2012)

Hooked on Fenix said:


> I wasn't planning on modding my car headlights. I know it's not allowed. However, I think these l.e.d.s have the potential to be used in the next generation of OEM car headlights. Might make hybrid and electric cars more energy/fuel efficient. In a lot of places now, you can get a $200+ ticket for not having your car headlights on in broad daylight. This takes away the fuel savings of a hybrid car as they can't run on battery alone with the power draining headlights on. You get the increased cost of a hybrid, the increased cost of maintenance, and no savings from fuel efficiency. L.e.d. headlights have the potential to save new car owners money from using less fuel in the newest generation of hybrid and electric vehicles.



Indeed, imagine the efficiency of them hybrids with lower drain lightings. LED itself has replaced many incan and yes, we do save quite a bit of electricity by persuading our parents into switching all light fixtures to LED. I'm just not a huge fan of the 6000k+ tint at home, IMO.

I can see the increase efficiency in these hybrid vehicles. With today's LED technology and color rendition, the only advantage traditional light bulbs have over LED is their ability to run independently in tight spaces and not worry too much about heat issues. It wont be long until LED technology can fix that issue.

Really good times are coming. I wonder who'll be the first manufacturer to transform all of their hybrid car's lights into LED


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## SemiMan (Dec 21, 2012)

Hooked on Fenix said:


> I wasn't planning on modding my car headlights. I know it's not allowed. However, I think these l.e.d.s have the potential to be used in the next generation of OEM car headlights. Might make hybrid and electric cars more energy/fuel efficient. In a lot of places now, you can get a $200+ ticket for not having your car headlights on in broad daylight. This takes away the fuel savings of a hybrid car as they can't run on battery alone with the power draining headlights on. You get the increased cost of a hybrid, the increased cost of maintenance, and no savings from fuel efficiency. L.e.d. headlights have the potential to save new car owners money from using less fuel in the newest generation of hybrid and electric vehicles.



Daytime running lights have been proven to provide a significant safety advantage. They make for significant reductions in certain type of accidents. Where they are required, the brightness level required is not even as bright as a low beam headlight. Purpose built daytime running lights can be implemented for <10 watts total on a car with LEDs. However, it is not uncommon for car manufacturers to just PWM the halogen low beam to have the lowest cost implementation.

That said, in the big scheme of things, halogen daytime running lights are perhaps 50-60 watts total or a small fraction of the power the vehicle needs to operate and would not impact the ability of a hybrid to run on battery alone. That compares to the 1+ KW that the motor is using.

Semiman


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## langham (Dec 21, 2012)

I feel like the best flashlight application for these would be to replace old MCE leds, but the voltage does cause issues. Why haven't they came up with an alternate where you can wire them in parallel? Will this happen? They are crazy. Earlier it was stated that they were almost 15W, but by looking at the data sheet at 1.25A and 12.25Vf you would get around 15.3W total and from the picture it seems that the output vs. current is relatively linear at that point and you could probably push them closer to the 1.5A of the individual die, especially if you mounted them directly to a copper heatsink. Why couldn't they be used in a flashlight application? With the LiFePo4 batteries 4 in series would get you very close to what you would want to power them at the 1.25A range. That would lead to some great driver efficiency.


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## langham (Dec 22, 2012)

After further inspection these actually are able to perform pretty close to the SST-90, the SST-90 was tested at 25C and puts out 2700lm at 9A and these at 25C would put out 2400lm at that temperature. Since the SST-90 is so inefficient these would have a lower Tj and therefore be more likely to run at lower temperatures and would likely perform very close to the SST-90. This is assuming that they were both ran at the maximum manufacturer ratings and not over-driven.


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## degarb (Dec 22, 2012)

Fine for industrial, construction and auto. ... A pipe dream for now, I am thinking, 11.7 volt forward, a 12 volt agm (advanced glass mat, used in security systems, and online for $20) would work. I always thought 3 or 4 18650 battery system is minimal to get ample candela, from any xml, for any workaday length. (The multi die promises closer to 180 lpw, not 100lpw when ran harder.) This manufacturers seem to forget. Runtime and lux=usefulness and essential amount of light that bounces back to eyeball of area being looked at. 

Most agm's put out like 13.6 volt, if I remember, off charger. (Heavy, more for bike and toolbelt, but energy potential of 5 lowend 18650s) So, I am wrong that they could drive these? Why not 3 18650's for better runtime/usefulness than 4?


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## VegasF6 (Jan 27, 2013)

Any idea if/when/where these might be available? Digkey shows no stock and Mouser on order, so I am assuming nowhere yet?


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## VegasF6 (Jan 27, 2013)

dupe_


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## langham (Jan 27, 2013)

I heard someone say April.


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## VegasF6 (Feb 15, 2013)

FYI, I emailed David at Cutter and he has some 3000K ready to ship. I really wanted to pull the trigger but I am hoping to get mine mounted.


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## langham (Feb 15, 2013)

I don't want one mounted, but I want 5000k or slightly more.


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## WeLight (Feb 20, 2013)

So what are your thoughts on a quad 32mm MKR with Narrow LEdil and Hyperboost driver?


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## tobrien (Jun 22, 2013)

do y'all foresee the MK-R replacing the MC-E now that we're halfway in to 2013? has anyone done it yet? 

totally different voltages I see, but is it at all likely the MK-R will be the "new MC-E" as time goes on?

and is Cree moving toward quad die chips now more heavily? the XLamp page seems to have a decent amount of multi die LEDs


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## langham (Jun 23, 2013)

It seems like to me that they are going toward multiple die leds for color rendition, but not overall. The MK-R is the only new led that I have seen that is a small package multi-die led and is not color. Some of the larger ones are multi-die, but the CXA series arrays are one large die. I think they did it purely for efficiency purposes. I think that if you could hook the led up in parallel people would be willing to replace the MC-E leds with these. Maybe someone who had an MC-E hooked up in series could just drop one in and say what they think.


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## Modsquad (Jan 29, 2014)

Hooked on Fenix said:


> Looks like this l.e.d. would work great for replacing 100 watt bulbs or 23-26 watt (100 watt equivalent) florescent bulbs. 15 watts is at least a 8 watt savings over the 100 watt equivalent florescent bulb or about a 35% reduction in power consumption (probably less after circuitry losses). If these are cheap enough to use more than one per bulb, we might get closer to 150-200 lumens/watt efficiency for the bulb. I was hoping that I could get an l.e.d. flashlight with a 200+ lumen/watt l.e.d. once they became available. I don't think this l.e.d. will be going into many flashlights anytime soon. I think my best bet is to wait for higher bins of the XM-L2 as they become available.
> 
> With the voltage being near 12 volts, these may also possibly work for car l.e.d. headlight, power failure lights, and low voltage lighting.



Hi, am always interested in new advances of LED flashlights. From my search I came across the Niwalker Black Vostro BK-FA02 CREE MT-G2 2420 Lumen 4x18650 NW. It is my understanding that, like the MK-R, this cree led is predominantly being used to replace incandescent lamps in architectural incandescent lighting fixtures. The use of the Cree MT-G2 in applications such as flashlights is very new. I just wanted to pass this on because you may or may not have known that Cree has already begun supplying Niwalker with this new led for use with high power/output thrower flashlights following it's primary introduction as a viable replacement in incandescent lighting fixtures. The following is the link to edcplus.com website's page advertising their Niwalker
Black Vostro BK-FA02 flashlight.

http://edcplus.com/niwalker-black-vostro-bkfa02-cree-mtg2-2420-lumen-4x18650-nw-p-181.html

Just thought I'd throw my two cents in for what it's worth.

Modsquad


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