# Police Study of tactical use of Strobe



## Grizzlyb

With this article I’ll try to share with you the knowledge we have about handheld Tactical Lights (to name TL) in general and the use of the Strobe specifically. 


1.Why do I think this is needed and 2. How come I (we) have this knowledge? 

Much reactions I hear about the use of Strobe, are based on “hear say” or someone’s own opinion. 
So, time to clear some facts about TL and Strobe as far as knowledge goes in 2013. 

How do I get these “Facts” ?

I am working as a Police trainer (over 10 years) in tactics for regular cops and special force units.(hand to hand combat and firearms training) I am on the police force (in 8 different units and special arrest squads) since 1972 and still in active service. 

Most of the 40+ Police trainers on our Police Academy are combat specialists and we train in all sorts of technical and tactical equipment. 
30+ years ago, we were already working with lights and made use of it to gain tactical advancement. 
Last 10 years we noticed a strong increase in technical development in the handheld lights. 
So we adapted our training methods to what was technical possible at the moment.
At the same pace our tactical (and technical) knowledge grew, and with that our insides of what was possible. 

So far the why and how.

*
DEVELOPMENT TL*

About 7 years ago we decided to take the tactical use of handheld lights to the next step, and make it into a long term study of the concept. We had the means, the knowledge and the people to work with (work on :naughty: ) We not only train police officers in active duty, but also Police students in their different levels of academy training. (I am not ashamed to say, that many hundreds of them were our guinea pigs in training sessions on the Academy. ) 

We changed the concept several times and handed new samples of development to officers in different divisions. (Cops on regular duty, traffic squads, detective, arrest squads, K9 cops, cops on Horse duty, and other specialized groups) 
We also did research on the possibility of eye damage or other health problems. 

Most tactical and technical research was by trial and error, just learn from your mistakes, don’t take any “hear say” for granted, find it out Yourselves and if proven, adept your training and hardware. We made a list of questions that every student had to fill out after training. Of course we also saw the results of the use of our tactical lights during these training sessions. 90% of our trainings are non-weapon training. Fire arms training with TL is a little different, but most findings apply to both.
In our work with these TL’s, and the findings of our “guinea pigs” we came to the conclusion that strobe is by far the better choice to disorient an opponent, then a normal light beam (at same lm)
*
STROBE MODE*

Having said that, the right strobe needs some clear specs. 
We found, that with a slow or changing strobe, the opponent was able to (slowly) move their hands without being detected. The strobe is still very disorienting from the slower 5hz to 12hz and even higher, but the effect seems to get less when going much faster than 24hz.

We worked the strobe up to around 18hz to 20hz and that problem (noticing movements)was tackled. At 18hz to 20hz, the strobe was still extremely disorientating and the opponent could not move a finger without detection. 
So, strobes at 8hz, 10hz, 12hz etc ARE very disorienting, but could have unwanted negative side effects for the LEO. 
Thats why we chose for the 18hz to 20hz, less unwanted side effects.

Best result on a tactical level is a beam as tight as possible. With this tight beam, all the light is concentrated in the eyes of the opponent. This way you’re partner can approach the opponent undetected up to touching, and do the things you were trained for. (working in low/no light conditions) 
Flood lights are for searching and should not be used in a dedicated TL. You’ll shine on your partner and make him an easy target. Working with lights that had a flood beam, especially in teams, we found that a big part of the flood was increasing the light level on the hole working place, up to the level that the blinding "tunnel" effect was greatly diminished.

Students found it impossible to estimate distances under the right strobe. They could not tell if the distance was 3 feet or 10 feet. That is a very worthy tactical advantage when approaching an aggressive person.

Many times the students made a flinch movement and automatically brought their hand/arm between the TL and eyes (easy to grab) Or they even closed their eyes, (what better opponent then a blind opponent )

Aggressive drunken persons had a harder time to stay upright. They had a tendency to stumble/fall before they could make their attack. Most students learned to use the TL strobe on aggressive persons with mental disorder. In Holland we train to hold back on OC/ Pepper spray when dealing with these sorts of persons. 
They are more patients then criminals. So blinding them for a short period is as effective as spray, but does them no harm. We learned that it is better to use TL strobe indoors or in busses/trains etc. 
Less chance of getting sprayed them selves.

On the firing range we found that this type of strobe did not diminish the results of shooting targets. Being strobed at, makes it very hard to shoot back effectively. To sighed your target You must look directly in that strobe, which is extremely difficult. (ehh yes, we shoot at each other with special non-lethal training ammo called simunition, it hurts thou :laughing 

Apart from the strobe there are lots of other requirements to rebuild a light to a dedicated TL for our profession. 
In the end, that dedicated Police TL, was not build by any manufacturer. They build what they THINK is good for us, not what we need. 
So we had to make/design it ourselves. We approached many manufacturers, only 1 was innovative enough to take up the challenge. 
The TL we now have, can even be used in lots of useful other ways. It can be turned 360 degrees in its holster, for hands free working. With 1 hand You can detach it form you belt and put the complete set somewhere to light a room.

To make this text not longer than needed, I’ll make a list of our findings with short explanations.


*When is a TL a dedicated TL for police duty (for the situation in European country's)?*
*1.* 1-handed quick draw, of course not weapon hand. (a device is only tactical if it can be used instantly without searching for it.)

*2.* Carry the TL in a special dedicated holster, upside down, attached to belt or holster with a short spiral cord. (not to weak that it breaks easily, but not to strong that it can be used to strangle a person)

*3.* Thump operated momentary rear switch ONLY. (Absolutely *NO* side switches and *NO* double switches. Those are not usable under stress when sometimes half a second is too much. Study’s proof, that it is almost impossible to make use of your fine motoric skills under higher levels of stress. What you can do, is just press your thumb and hold it or release it. With enough training you can learn to improve this just marginally)

*4.* ALWAYS starts up in strobe mode, after that it can be made to switch to other modes. This mode sequence may not be made changeable. (Police officers are 100% human; the majority is practical and NOT tactical in nature. So when it IS changeable, many will try to reset the mode to what they use a normal light mainly for. . . .read a driver’s license or to write something. Then it becomes a normal light and not a the tactical devise it was designed to be) 

*5.* At least 450lm throw type beam at up to 2 hours. (at least 2500 lux at 3 meters). (The effects of blinding and disorientation are optimal enough on that intensity. On lower lm the effect is less and not optimal.) 
Technically this is a challenge. Small head, much throw, high lumens. In 2013 we ended up with the choice for the XP-G R5 LED. In that small 34mm head it has less flood then the XM-L’s, and has a better power efficiency. For our findings, it still could be less spill, but that technical hurdle was to high at this technical level. 

*6.*It has to be small enough for daily belt carriage. Max 140mm long, head wide max 34mm, body size about 1 x 18650 battery, weight max 400gr. Incl. TL/battery/holder etc. (when it is to large, LEO’s tend to leave it in the car or at the station and what is tactical about a light You don’t have on you when you need it.) 

*7.* 100 % reliable under heavy duty. (hand to hand combat tests, drop tests and water tests should be of standard required level)

*8.* Cost effective, so rechargeable batteries and chargers. (Due to size and battery life the protected 18650 size is our preferred power source. We work with these batteries for the last 3 years and have had zero defects or problems with them.) 

*9.* In Holland there are strict regulations about what weapons a police officer may carry. Metal rods with “strike bezels” are NOT one of those weapons. So our TL’s are NOT equipped with a strike bezel or sharp rims “to see if the light is turned on ?” . (we never put a burning TL with it's head standing on a surface and we don’t like the idea of making bloody wounds by ripping the flesh of someone’s skin during an arrest. A special hardend point to shatter a car window is an other thing, thats already on my key chain.)


Keep in mind, 

a. This concept developed more into a tactical device (complete concept), that can also be used as a light. Not in the sense that the standard lights most people have and “more or less” can be used tactically in some situations. 
b. Forget the word “tactical” in the sense that the sales market is using it. That is not tactical in any way but a tactical financial way. 


With this article I hope to have given you some new info on the subjects of Strobe and Tactical Lights. Apart from a dedicated TL for regular LEO’s, we also developed dedicated lights for other specialized departments in the Police force. I can’t elaborate on that, but it is a work in progress.

Oh yes, forgot to mention that it takes practice to use the tactical advantages of a dedicated TL. You'll need a good trainer that is informed of the latest info and training methods. Even most Police trainers are not up to date in this knowledge. 
That’s normal, we all have our specialty's. You can't know all.

Excuses for translational mishaps, I am Dutch so English is not my native tongue. I don't use translation programs, lots of language misses are not found by them anyway. 

Friendly regards

K. vd Linden

Edit:
This article is mainly about the tactical use of Strobe for LEO's.
Different uses in the private sector is not part of this research. Thou we did start with some research on the use of strobe on animals. 
Blinding lights can be dangerous when wrongly used in traffic or when high velocity is involved.


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## appliancejunk

*Re: What situations is Strobe the perfect choice.*

Interesting, thanks for posting.


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## thedoc007

*Re: What situations is Strobe the perfect choice.*

Informative, and I am impressed by your English language skills. Frankly you are better at it than many native speakers...


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## Grizzlyb

*Re: What situations is Strobe the perfect choice.*



thedoc007 said:


> Informative, and I am impressed by your English language skills. Frankly you are better at it than many native speakers...


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## kj2

*Re: What situations is Strobe the perfect choice.*

Thanks  did gave me a other look on tactical lights


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## reppans

*What situations is Strobe the perfect choice.*

Wow... excellent write-up, and from REAL Pro. Outstanding and thanks for sharing!


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## jcw122

*Re: What situations is Strobe the perfect choice.*

Wow this is a tremendous contributions to the community! I'd even vote this up for a sticky considering that so many useless threads about strobe pop up around here.

Grizzlyb, you may want to just change the thread title to something like "Real World Police Study of Strobe" or something like that....the current title sounds like a question. I think you'll get more views if people don't think it's an ordinary strobe thread.

And yes, the English isn't too bad at all


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## Grizzlyb

*Re: What situations is Strobe the perfect choice.*



jcw122 said:


> Grizzlyb, you may want to just change the thread title to something like "Real World Police Study of Strobe" or something like that....the current title sounds like a question. I think you'll get more views if people don't think it's an ordinary strobe thread.
> 
> And yes, the English isn't too bad at all



Thanks,
Excellent remark. Done :twothumbs


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## sinnyc

Grizzlyb said:


> Having said that, the right strobe needs some clear specs. We found out, that with a slow or changing strobe, the opponent was able to (slowly) move their hands without being detected.
> 
> We worked the strobe up to around 18hz to 20hz and that problem was tackled. At 20hz the strobe was still extremely disorientating and the opponent could not move a finger without detection.



Thank you for the excellent write up. I was particularly interested in the fact that a slow strobe could allow a suspect to actually move his hands undetected. The effect must be sort of like an old movie where the "flicker" of each slow moving frame and border makes what you are seeing look like a series of still images.

- Tim


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## kmorar556

Thank you for the GREAT information! 

I've really learned alot! I just started in the Law Enforcement field and information like this really helps. Im sure going to pass along this useful information to other officers I know. THANKS AGAIN!!!


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## Grizzlyb

For those among us that like to see things, 
I'll try to place the article in a visual perspective:







Not only usable as a dedicated TL, in the holster it can be turned 360 degrees. 
Photo with TL turned sideways,






Or up, so you also have a ceiling bounce and an easy work light.






We also made some video presentations, but the 20hz strobe is hard to get on camera, so we could not use that. (on a CMOS camera with 24fps the Strobe is not right)


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## SeamusORiley

Informative and interesting. I echo your English language usage compliments. Thank you for taking the time to post.


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## mcnair55

I am really pleased you have posted this,we have all read rubbish about strobes by many armchair experts but coming from someone in the trade so to speak means a lot more.

+1 to be made a sticky.


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## sinnyc

What a cool holster. Is it a specially built item or something available to the general public?


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## CarpentryHero

Thanks for posting, I found it really informative


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## blah9

Yes, thank you. I enjoyed your post as well.


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## Dioni




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## dano

Interesting, but anecdotal. No mention of the first strobing light (Gladius, intro'd in 2005) or initial use doctrine from Strategos? I'd recommend Ken J. Good's book: "A Law Enforcement Officer's Guide To: the Strategies Of Low-Light Engagements." ISBN-10: 1424309131.


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## kj2

Which ESP holster is that?  which type/number?


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## Grizzlyb

kj2 said:


> Which ESP holster is that?  which type/number?


LHU 14-35. It is for sale to public, but probably hard to get in the US.

Dano,

A few years back I had a peak in that so called Low/light bible, the Strategies Of Low-Light Engagements. 
Our Academy library is substantial. 
To be exact, Ken J. Good was not the first, in 1999 there already was a guy named Andy Stanford he was a tactical trainer and wrote a book about fighting in low/light combat. 
He did include a good section about hand to hand combat with the tactical use of handheld lights. (But to my liking he was a little to much focused on 1 brand) 
He included most of the Flashlight technics (Harries, Rogers, Kellers, over-under, neckindex cigar etc., that Ken also reffered to in his book. 
From what I remember the book Ken wrote is 99% about firearms and it came on the market in 2006 or 2007. I can't remember he talked about research on the frequencies of strobe, or designing dedicated TL for police use, but You can maybe correct me on that. 

Since then a lot is technically improved, much higher lumens and a better understanding about strobe. 
And about the Gladius that "invented" the strobe, 
It was never our intention to do research on who invented what and who wrote the first book about it. 

We started this research mainly for hand to hand combat situations, because since 2007 the technic of our hand held lights was developing rapidly. 
We needed to adept those newer possibility's in our trainings. Did we do this alone? no, we even invited 2 FBI trainers for a week, to learn from there findings and teach them ours.

That said,
There are lots of private companies that give very good trainings and make their living from it.

But the fact alone that company's like Strategos make money on selling Gladius lights and use them for training, tells me enough about their technical and tactical innovation. Maybe their research on tactical strobes was based on their own observations and experience? and not that extensive in a broader field in hand to hand unarmed combat? 
BTW, Ken is a professional and from what I hear a very nice person. He was representative/ trainer for the SureFire Institute AND started the Strategos comp., but what goes for Gladius goes for SF, 
Then again, my remark about Stratos and SF is just an observation and an opinion on my side.

And I don't mean to say, that Gladius or SF are not making beatiful and very good lights, they do.
They just don't build the lights we need....jet.


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## sinnyc

kj2 said:


> Which ESP holster is that?  which type/number?



I think they are called Brite Strike in the US.


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## alpg88

yep, brute strike ROTO-LOC Articulating Tactical Holster


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## the.Mtn.Man

Grizzlyb said:


> Forget the word “tactical” in the sense that the sales market is using it. That is not tactical in any way but a tactical financial way.


Those products are derisively known as "tacticool", as they don't have any purpose other than to look "cool".


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## Labrador72

Thanks Gryzzlyb, very interesting and informative post.
Much better than any book I've come across on the subject.


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## JAS

*Police Study Of Tactical Use Of Strobe*

Grizzlyb,


Have you joined www.officer.com yet?


Jim


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## romteb

Grizzlyb said:


> *5.* At least 250lm throw type beam at up to 2 hours. Higher lumens (read lux) is possible, but no less. (The effects of blinding and disorientation are optimal enough on that intensity. On lower lm the effect is less and not optimal.)
> Technically this is a challenge. Small head, much throw, high lumens. In 2013 we ended up with the choice for the XP-G R5 LED. In that small 32mm head it has less flood then the XM-L’s, and has a better power efficiency. For our findings, it still could be less spill, but that technical hurdle was to high at this technical level.





Did you consider the cree xp-e or xp-e2 to improve your lux numbers and tir or aspherical optics to solve your spill problem ?


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## Grizzlyb

Sorry, but I am packing for Istanbul today.
I'll pick up on this thread in about 6 days.


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## xevious

Very interesting write-up; thanks for posting this perspective, Grizzlyb.

I completely appreciate the idea of minimal thought to put the light into action, thus starting in strobe instead of other modes and requiring only one switch in a predictable location. However, with any implement that is a device, there is training involved.

Obviously for the civilian, or non-tactical professional, starting the light in strobe mode is impractical and an annoyance. But what about a light that is programmable, whereby strobe can be assigned to the first primary mode and retained in memory, for use by police? My thought is something like a NovaTac/HDS programming system, but in the body of a tactical light that meets the physical requirements you've stated.


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## Kick

Very interesting read. Thank you for sharing your information.


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## Grizzlyb

xevious said:


> Very interesting write-up; thanks for posting this perspective, Grizzlyb.
> 
> I completely appreciate the idea of minimal thought to put the light into action, thus starting in strobe instead of other modes and requiring only one switch in a predictable location. However, with any implement that is a device, there is training involved.
> 
> Obviously for the civilian, or non-tactical professional, starting the light in strobe mode is impractical and an annoyance. But what about a light that is programmable, whereby strobe can be assigned to the first primary mode and retained in memory, for use by police? My thought is something like a NovaTac/HDS programming system, but in the body of a tactical light that meets the physical requirements you've stated.



 Ok just one quick answer before we leave. 
In the article I also tried to explain that LEO's are 100% human. So indeed they are practical. . . . . .and that is often not Tactical. 
100% of the LEO's (in Holland) are issued with Bulletproof vests. Only 25% is wearing it. (to hot, sweaty, uncomfortable. . . .so unpractical) 
If we issue a light that IS programmable, 80% WILL program it for more practical use. 
Within a few weeks their TL's will start up in 20lm mode for writing tickets. 
So, they will throw away that small tactical advantage. There are already lots of beautiful lights on the market for civilians. This TL is not designed for that market. 
We made it a tactical device. . . . . . that also CAN be changed to a normal light within 2 seconds, BUT only if you have no stress and no need for tactics at the moment. 
When you finish your writing and put your light back in the holster. . . . .it returns back to the tactical device it is designed to be.

Afterthought:
We live in Europe, we don't go from door to door armed with rifles to take out hostage takers or town guerrilla.
In Amsterdam in 2012 there were 19 incidents were cops had to shoot (15 warning shots)
99.9% of all incidents are non weapon related. (Drunk people that won't leave the bar, women molesting there husbands, resisting arrest after theft etc.)

Shooting incidents are rear. Shooting incidents where tactical use of a lights was necessary are extremely rear. 
I know of every shooting incident of the last 10 years in Amsterdam. No lights where used in any of those shootings. 

We still train special forces in the use of lights/guns, but the "normal" LEO's got the basic training and knowledge about how to use a light in combo with a gun. After that basic training there has been little or non training in that part.

They do have to fight a lot in hand to hand. There the TL strobe device is a big help.


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## LightJaguar

I was kind of wondering what kind of Tactical training officers from Holland would get. They probably don't have to worry about the possibility of every other citizen shooting at them with a gun similar to theirs or even an assault riffle like in the US. Probably not too many military trained men like in the US. In my job alone about half of us are veterans some with combat experience I'm sure all with fire arms training. Two of my coworkers probably have enough guns, riffles and ammo to arm a squad. 
I think the situation and tactics here are a bit different. Some years ago I got pulled over in Newport Beach, California for a burned signal light at night time. Even though I drive a small compact car, turned my interior lights on, put my hands on the steering wheel the officer that pulled me over had his hand on top of his gun when he walked over to my car. 
Over here if you get out of hand with a cop you will probably get pepper sprayed or tasered if you are lucky. The only time I ever saw a cop get into some sort of hand to hand combat with a civilian it was more like baton to legs combat. The cop beat the hell out of this one drunk dude who kept on saying stupid things and got belligerent. After seeing that I made sure to never cross over to the US from Mexico half drunk less I end up in a similar situation. 
I don't think I ever saw a cop use strobe on any of the "COP" TV show episodes. 
I'm sort of wondering exactly who makes the flashlights that you need? Anyway we can buy them? :naughty:


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## jaycyu

*bookmarked + *subscribed


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## bluemax_1

Here was my reply in the other thread about recommendations for police duty lights


bluemax_1 said:


> Yes, I read the other thread as well and found it very interesting. I've always found the strobe to be much more disorienting than a standard light of the same brightness.
> 
> So the tactical strobe as Primary is intended for aggressive suspects then? The thing is, the vast majority of use here is against non-aggressors, eg. in routine night time traffic stops etc. Most of the time, it's used for illumination, to light up the interior of the stopped vehicle to check for anything out of the ordinary. For routine traffic stops in the US, the occupants remain in the vehicle. They're only ordered to carefully exit the vehicle while keeping their hands in sight IF there's reasonable suspicion that they're armed and/or dangerous. I realize in some countries, the occupants of stopped vehicles are supposed to exit their vehicle when they're stopped).
> 
> Most of the time though, the traffic stops are for traffic infractions/violations and the vehicle occupants are not aggressive. Before approaching the vehicle, officers here can look up the registration plates on the vehicle to determine if it has been stolen or involved in some other criminal activity increasing the likelihood that the occupants may be aggressive to officers. The majority of the time, that isn't the case, but of course, you still never know.
> 
> All that said though, a very bright light in the face tends to temporarily blind folks and even stun them. Shining a bright light in the driver's face at a traffic stop temporarily blinds them and allows for a quick visual inspection of the vehicle interior. There's little danger of the driver being night blinded as they drive off, since the duration of a routine traffic stop will give their eyes enough time to recover.
> 
> Even against drunk or belligerent suspects, the bright light being suddenly shone in their face/eyes is usually enough to disorient them.
> 
> To that effect, yes, we can both agree that a light with greater throw (higher candela) is better than a light with more flood. The brighter the light in their face, the more effective it is at disorienting them. I can also see your point about floody lights being less desirable and the potential for the suspect to see your partner approaching, as a brighter hotspot DOES cause more tunnel vision for the person facing it than a floody light with a less intense hotspot, and the flood could inadvertently light up your partner.
> 
> Depending on the situation, with some lights, the tactical strobe is only a button click away. And in the US, being a litigation happy place (people like to file lawsuits whenever they can), blasting everyone you stop in the face with a tactical strobe is not necessarily a good thing.
> 
> There's this thing called reasonable force. If you hit someone unnecessarily, that's unreasonable use of force and they can sue. If you use a tactical strobe on them and it turns out they suffer from epilepsy and go into a seizure, they can sue. If the court determines that there was no overt sign of aggression warranting the need for using something like a tactical strobe, you could be in trouble.
> 
> So although I read your thread detailing your testing of tactical strobes vs lights of equal brightness and their debilitating effectiveness on stunning, blinding and disorienting aggressive suspects and perpetrators, I have to say that although there are certainly uses for it, it's not something I'd advocate as a first use/primary mode.
> 
> And if the tactical strobe IS warranted and desirable, in many flashlights, it's just 2 button clicks as opposed to one. The first button click is going to cause a bright flash in their face anyway, and the second click will simply continue the flashing. Before flashlights with built-in in tactical strobe modes became common, I used the momentary switch on my Surefire to produce a tactical strobe when necessary by rapidly half pressing the momentary switch.
> 
> Now after having said all that, as I've stated, I certainly agree that there are situations where the use of the strobe is effective, desirable and always warranted (SWAT entry comes to mind).
> 
> I was also wondering if in all your testing, if you've determined any specific strobe patterns that are particularly effective? There are many different strobe patterns in all the different lights available these days. Some use a steady rate, some very fast, some are slower, some of them switch between faster and slower (eg. eight fast flashes followed by eight slower flashes). Aside from your mention of using strobes with faster rates due to slower strobes not making movements obvious enough, is there a particular frequency you've found to be more effective? What about the lights where the strobe frequency changes?
> 
> In all the tactical strobes that I've seen, there was one light I had where the strobe disoriented me more than others. It was a cheap Chinese made light branded MTE. The strobe on that light, if I recall correctly, was very slightly slower than the strobe on my Fenix or 4/7's lights, but something about that frequency caused a lot more disorientation than the others, to the point where after 3-4 seconds, I almost felt like I was losing my balance. Unfortunately, being a cheap light, it didn't last long enough to test it on other people to see if that strobe frequency was similarly more effective on other folks compared to other strobe rates, or whether that particular strobe frequency was more disorienting only to me.
> 
> 
> Max



I hadn't yet read the newer posts in this thread before I made the post I quoted here.

Although LEO's here do have to occasionally get 'hands-on', as the poster above stated, in the US, officers tend to avoid hand-to-hand scuffles with potentially dangerous suspects. If a suspect is aggressive and uncooperative, pepper spray or a taser is preferred for subduing them, rather than closing the distance and engaging in hand to hand techniques. There's a fine line with excessive use of force, and of course, in the US, you never know who may be carrying a firearm (or other weapon like a knife), and you'll want to reduce the possibility of them gaining control of your firearm in a hand to hand scuffle.

Very often, the threat of being arrested and handcuffed is enough to quell belligerent drunks. The threat of pepper spray or a taser is even more effective. I do get the point about not wanting to use pepper spray on a crowded bus or subway train though, but even in a closed room/house, the pepper spray used by LEOs here sends a directed stream, not a mist. It minimizes the effect on other folks the stream isn't directed at.



Max


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## ColdZero

Excellent and very informative post, thank you very much.


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## xevious

Grizzlyb said:


> Ok just one quick answer before we leave.
> In the article I also tried to explain that LEO's are 100% human. So indeed they are practical. . . . . .and that is often not Tactical.
> 100% of the LEO's (in Holland) are issued with Bulletproof vests. Only 25% is wearing it. (to hot, sweaty, uncomfortable. . . .so unpractical)
> If we issue a light that IS programmable, 80% WILL program it for more practical use.
> Within a few weeks their TL's will start up in 20lm mode for writing tickets.
> So, they will throw away that small tactical advantage. There are already lots of beautiful lights on the market for civilians. This TL is not designed for that market.
> We made it a tactical device. . . . . . that also CAN be changed to a normal light within 2 seconds, BUT only if you have no stress and no need for tactics at the moment.
> When you finish your writing and put your light back in the holster. . . . .it returns back to the tactical device it is designed to be.
> 
> Afterthought:
> We live in Europe, we don't go from door to door armed with rifles to take out hostage takers or town guerrilla.
> In Amsterdam in 2012 there were 19 incidents were cops had to shoot (15 warning shots)
> 99.9% of all incidents are non weapon related. (Drunk people that won't leave the bar, women molesting there husbands, resisting arrest after theft etc.)
> 
> Shooting incidents are rare. Shooting incidents where tactical use of a lights was necessary are extremely rear.
> I know of every shooting incident of the last 10 years in Amsterdam. No lights where used in any of those shootings.
> 
> We still train special forces in the use of lights/guns, but the "normal" LEO's got the basic training and knowledge about how to use a light in combo with a gun. After that basic training there has been little or non training in that part.
> 
> They do have to fight a lot in hand to hand. There the TL strobe device is a big help.


I see what you're saying. Giving the programming advantage to an officer means that their light may not be completely ready as quickly as it needs to be, depending on how they programmed it. I know for myself, I have my triple-click mode on my NovaTac set for strobe. I've used it enough that there's hardly any delay in my ability to activate it. But that was my own choice. It's also been the case that once in a while, I'll fumble with the triple click and bring the light on normal mode instead. With tactical work, you can't afford that. So I do appreciate the idea of the specialized TL, where strobe is the primary mode and it can be bypassed with a double-click or single half-click using the same switch.

I really need to find some social study reports of various European countries. I'm fascinated how some have so little crime, while others have more. And the USA has much more, not from sheer population but when looking at per capita.

There was an interesting spot on NPR today (National Public Radio in the USA). We're in the midst of dealing with new legislation proposals regarding the obtaining of firearms. The actual statistics of murders by people who are licensed to carry a concealed weapon is actually much lower than for the general population. There's something about having that power on hand that alleviates the immediate need to retaliate against someone who has offended you. Without it, one has a greater tendency to lash out at an antagonist, and thus creating an exchange that can escalate to violence. But the real problem that we've been seeing is security, keeping arms locked up and out of the hands of those not authorized. And that can only be feasibly altered by perpetual education/reminders and laws that make an owner culpable if a firearm is easily stolen (meaning not properly secured).


----------



## kaichu dento

jcw122 said:


> Wow this is a tremendous contributions to the community! I'd even vote this up for a sticky considering that so many useless threads about strobe pop up around here.
> 
> Grizzlyb, you may want to just change the thread title to something like "Real World Police Study of Strobe" or something like that....


+1 for changing the title to "Real World Police Study of Strobe", as well as making a sticky of this excellent thread.



xevious said:


> ...for the civilian, or non-tactical professional, starting the light in strobe mode is impractical and an annoyance. But what about a light that is programmable, whereby strobe can be assigned to the first primary mode and retained in memory, for use by police? My thought is something like a NovaTac/HDS programming system, but in the body of a tactical light that meets the physical requirements you've stated.


HDS programming definitely makes it a great option for a civilian, not to mention the user friendly sizing. I like the idea of also getting one of the lights being used in this program and think every home may benefit from having one or two in the house.



Grizzlyb said:


> Sorry, but I am packing for Istanbul today.
> I'll pick up on this thread in about 6 days.


Looking forward very much to the continuance of the subject from such an unemotional and well researched perspective.


----------



## BWX

Very interesting. I always wondered what a strobe would REALLY do to a person. I think mounting a powerful thrower strobe to a home defense weapon (like my AK47 or 12 ga shotgun) might not be a bad idea. I mean if it gives you 2 extra seconds, that might be all you need.


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## tam17

Thanks again for this insight, Grizzlyb. 'Been following your posts in other strobe threads although I'm not coming from a LEO standpoint. At last some research-based data in this highly hyped-up and mystified field. Did the Academy by any chance publish any scientific papers on this topic? Waiting for further development in testing on vicious dogs...

Cheers


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## deniscure

So what tactical flashlights do you guys know which are able to start into strobe mode?
I got lucky with my first serious light, the P25! It's able to start into strobe mode.


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## shane45_1911

I have been following this thread with significant interest. 
As a LEO with 25 years experience in ERT and SWAT, I am extremely grateful to see that your experience with low-light, and strobes in general - mirror my own. I have done extensive low-light training (with a very under-rated Andy Stanford, as mentioned - and many others) and I am so glad no one is portraying a strobe as a magic death ray, or a device that sends everyone into an incapacitating fit of epilepsy. It has its purpose, and when used for certain specific uses, it is an effective tool.
Thanks for the very interesting post.
Be safe.


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## eh4

Excellent article and great English.
Thanks!


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## SoCalDep

This is a great article and discussion. I have experimented with strobe lights in a tactical training environment (I am part of our weapons training unit) as well as in the field on patrol prior to my current assignment. What I see is that strobe is today, what lasers and weapon lights were several years ago. There is minimal study and experience on the efficacy of strobe as a tactical tool, and many (most) of the lights offered today function in such a way that the strobe is too hard or unreliable to access. I think strobe has potential, but we need to study where it does and doesn't work, develop and refine tactics, and tailor the equipment to the need. The above referenced study may go far to begin to answer many of these questions. 

My experience has been consistent with what has been stated above. The strobe has a more disorienting effect compared to a similar lumen constant light, though it is by no means a "fight stopper". It does provide a tactical option and can help in attaining/maintaining an advantage. 

I would also be interested to see if any written study/documentation was available regarding Grizzlyb's results as it would give some clear validation to further study of the strobe concept. Lastly, and maybe I just didn't catch it in the previous posts while my two four-year-olds and six-year-old are running around me, but what flashlight make/model did you eventually decide on? I saw the comments about the holster and US marketing by Brite-Strike.


----------



## Grizzlyb

bluemax_1 said:


> Here was my reply in the other thread about recommendations for police duty lights
> 
> 
> I hadn't yet read the newer posts in this thread before I made the post I quoted here.
> 
> Although LEO's here do have to occasionally get 'hands-on', as the poster above stated, in the US, officers tend to avoid hand-to-hand scuffles with potentially dangerous suspects. If a suspect is aggressive and uncooperative, pepper spray or a taser is preferred for subduing them, rather than closing the distance and engaging in hand to hand techniques. There's a fine line with excessive use of force, and of course, in the US, you never know who may be carrying a firearm (or other weapon like a knife), and you'll want to reduce the possibility of them gaining control of your firearm in a hand to hand scuffle.
> 
> Very often, the threat of being arrested and handcuffed is enough to quell belligerent drunks. The threat of pepper spray or a taser is even more effective. I do get the point about not wanting to use pepper spray on a crowded bus or subway train though, but even in a closed room/house, the pepper spray used by LEOs here sends a directed stream, not a mist. It minimizes the effect on other folks the stream isn't directed at.
> 
> 
> 
> Max



First of all, we train to use as minimal force possible. That is also written by law for LEO's. 
So, arresting an aggressive person first try by hand using tactics and as little force possible. Then scale up to spray, more force (using fist or other means like baton) When You have the choice being hit by my fists or by spray, You probably choose the spray (effect is gone in 15 minutes, effect of my fists takes longer to wear of) 
So, using a strobe to gain advantage during an arrest, resulting in as little force/damage possible is good for us and good for the suspect. (of course, the choice of as low force possible brings more danger to the officer, but thats the way we handle things in Holland). 

We never use a tactical light to blind a normal person just to check his license or his car, never, period. 
Just to gain the upper hand on an aggressor. 
And yes, it comes in handy with a cone on it in traffic signaling. 
Ps. We don't have tasers, and we do have a needle like spray (no mist). Still, in a hand to hand combat, in a struggle with the sprayed person, we get spray residue on our skin, resulting in dripping sweat in your eyes and get effected with the spray. Course of the adrenalin of the fight it often is not directly a big problem, but it makes Your eyes want to close in a time you really don't want that. 

send from Ipad in Istanbul


----------



## Tyler___Durden

Thank you for a very interesting thread.
And your insights into police innovations with flashlight development
for LEO's and applied techniques.


----------



## Grizzlyb

Hi Socaldep,

The TL the police needs according to these requirements, is not made by any manufacturer. We did ask many for help, but no one even repleyed. In the end we could only find 1 that was innovative enough to help. It is ready now, but still small adjustments are made, it is a developement in progress.


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## BWX

I'm thinking it was probably more their business model's incompatibility to offer the kind of assistance you required rather than them not being "innovative" enough to help. I don't know, I'm just thinking that there are a lot of innovative companies out there making a lot of innovative flashlights that just couldn't offer the specific help you wanted. They should have replied to you and just said that though, instead of ignoring you completely, that's not very cool!


----------



## Grizzlyb

It wasn't that big a change, Momentary is already commonly integrated in many lights.
Lights with only rear swiches are also made by many. So , rebuild it with the mode start-up in Strobe (non changeable) and You have the basics of a dedicated Police TL. Put that in an upside down holster for 1-handed quick draw and Your basically there.

Socaldep,
The results of the last 7 years study are written as research papers and a project plan, but are in Dutch.
Becouse of this research the board of Dutch Police chiefs is now desiding if there is still enough money (Holland is since 5 years in an economical crises) to buy the TL for all Dutch Police officers. (50.000) 
Several independed departments already bought them in 2012 and 2013 for their officers.

appart from that, 
Do you think trainers like Ken J.Good and Andy Straton made any scientific research papers with hundreds of tests and years of study about there findings? I would love to read those scientific studys.


----------



## wfturnerm4

Nice write up.
You mention excellent points.
Thanks for your information


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## Poppy

Grizzlyb,
Regarding the desire to eliminate some of the spill.
Perhaps you can have a "snoot" designed into the light. One that is spring loaded to stay in the extended position, or is pulled into the extended position when drawn from the holster. The LEO can optionally slide it back out of the way when more spill is desireable. I have seen "snoot" described as long non reflective tube. I suspect that a 3cm tube would make a significant difference. Designed as I described above would hold consistent with the concept of TL FIRST, and other uses second.

Thanks for a great write up!


----------



## Grizzlyb

Hi Poppy,
Sounds interesting. Is there a side with pics? Is that system rugged enough to withstand police duty?
(the less parts that can break, the better) 
thanks for the idea.


----------



## Chevy-SS

Grizzlyb, thanks for the terrific info. :thumbsup: Can you pass along any tips for civilians on how best to use a strobe for disorienting someone? Is it as simple as shining directly into eyes for as long as possible? Or is one second good enough? I assume most folks will close eyes pretty quickly anyway, so length of actual strobing may be a non-issue.

If someone accosts me at night, and I strobe them for a full second or so, and then I run away - will they typically be able to run after me, or will the strobe effect disrupt their ability to run?

I am not asking how to use flashlight as weapon. We all know flashlights are NOT weapons.


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## LiteTheWay

Very educational post and great follow-up comments too. Particularly interesting that no manufacturer makes exactly what you require - even SureFire.


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## jaycyu

Do you have plans to market this to flashaholic civilians? :naughty:
You might have to use a middle man as the vendor, in case of any mishaps that might come back to the Netherland's police department.
I'm specially interested in your driver.


----------



## stevieo

thank you for a most interesting & informative thread. I have often wondered about the tactical use of strobe. personally, I hate strobe on my lights because i can accidentally trigger a migraine if I strobe myself in the face by accident & i would be incapacitated if someone were to intentionally strobe me at night. I have a sunwayman v20c which has tactical strobe setting & uses one 18650. it has a very tight & intense center beam for an xm-l u2 and is not terribly floody at 5 meters or closer range. the flood of the beam is not nearly as intensely bright as the center spot at close range. i also have a tactical strobe on my surefire r-1 lawman. I am so glad I happened upon your thread. now I can accompany women home at night on foot rather than by automobile when i am at my central american beach place which can be quite dark at night & women should not walk unaccompanied after dark on the the town's secondary streets or beach & i prefer to avoid places where I feel a need to carry a sidearm. tactical strobe is now my every night beach carry. the occasional petty wallet holdup thief tends to be unarmed in my beach town making tactical strobe the logical carry weapon of choice.


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## bluemax_1

Chevy-SS said:


> Grizzlyb, thanks for the terrific info. :thumbsup: Can you pass along any tips for civilians on how best to use a strobe for disorienting someone? Is it as simple as shining directly into eyes for as long as possible? Or is one second good enough? I assume most folks will close eyes pretty quickly anyway, so length of actual strobing may be a non-issue.
> 
> If someone accosts me at night, and I strobe them for a full second or so, and then I run away - will they typically be able to run after me, or will the strobe effect disrupt their ability to run?
> 
> I am not asking how to use flashlight as weapon. We all know flashlights are NOT weapons.


It depends on the flashlight, the perpetrator and the circumstances. I have a female friend who found my EDC intriguing (the lot she parks in for work is not well lit). She decided to get one to light up the walk to her car and I showed her how I can switch modes on my light one handed.

A few weeks after she got the light, she calls me all excited. Some lowlife was hanging out in the parking lot and began hassling her, even after repeatedly telling him to leave her alone, when he began to get inappropriately suggestive, she pointed the light at him (it was on low mode), switched it to Turbo and triggered the strobe. He immediately yelled and covered his face. 

She also has a Fox whistle on her keychain and she let out a blast on that. The guy immediately turned and ran away, right into the fence, bouncing off it and falling on the ground. She had ample time to get in her car and drive away and didn't have to use the pepper spray that was also on her keychain.

Then again, I've also seen a drunk guy swing wildly when he got hit with a strobe in the face, although he wasn't very close as he was swinging blind with his eyes closed. I can tell you that in a darker environment, even a flash from a light with more than 500 lumens leaves a big blind spot in their vision for several minutes. The tactical strobe is very effective at disorienting intoxicated individuals though. I've seen a couple of belligerent drunks immediately bend over and start throwing up from being strobed for several seconds.


Max


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## djw479

Thank you to the OP for sharing these findings. Its very helpful to find unbiased research in this area.


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## Poppy

Poppy said:


> Grizzlyb,
> Regarding the desire to eliminate some of the spill.
> Perhaps you can have a "snoot" designed into the light. One that is spring loaded to stay in the extended position, or is pulled into the extended position when drawn from the holster. The LEO can optionally slide it back out of the way when more spill is desireable. I have seen "snoot" described as long non reflective tube. I suspect that a 3cm tube would make a significant difference. Designed as I described above would hold consistent with the concept of TL FIRST, and other uses second.
> 
> Thanks for a great write up!





Grizzlyb said:


> Hi Poppy,
> Sounds interesting. Is there a side with pics? Is that system rugged enough to withstand police duty?
> (the less parts that can break, the better)
> thanks for the idea.



Sorry, I haven't seen it anywhere. I imagine that it would have to be custom made.

You might look at spotting scopes that have a "retractable sun shade" for design ideas.


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## Grizzlyb

Friends, 
I must press this point time after time. TL is not a weapon in it selve
Tactical use of Strobe, can have the desired effect if You have the right training and intention with it.
It just can give You a time advantage where-in You must act. 
For LEO's it has a big advantage, becourse of there standard training and objectives.

For civilians it can be used, with the right training, and intention, to get away, or other appropriate defense action.
It is a tactical device, nothing more nothing less.
We are Dutch gouvernement officials and are not allowed to make money of research we do. We just want to help other professionals with our findings.

So, we don't sell these TL's, but I am 100% sure that manufacturers read this forum and will start make better and more dedicated lights for LEO,s. IF they have the intention of making REAL TL's for LEO's, they can find us and ask advice.

Only 1 manufacturer in Europe started to build it. 
I am a guest here and respect the manufacturers that helped to build this community. So I wont go in to details about the Brand name.


----------



## flashlight nut

Great thread Grizzlyb. This reinforces what some of us have posted in previous "Strobe" threads but with much more technical data. Your agency has put more research and developement into this area than any other agency I've heard about. It is sure to help the law enforcement community as a whole. Great work.


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## ghodan

The light you are talking about , is the Eden TDL 20?
http://www.knivesandtools.nl/nl/pt/-eden-tdl-20-tactische-zaklamp.htm

Or is a new model/revision being made as this light is already out for a few months and in your post you are saying that adjustments are still being worked on.


----------



## Yorgi

ghodan said:


> The light you are talking about , is the Eden TDL 20?
> http://www.knivesandtools.nl/nl/pt/-eden-tdl-20-tactische-zaklamp.htm
> 
> Or is a new model/revision being made as this light is already out for a few months and in your post you are saying that adjustments are still being worked on.


Nice find, that looks like the light. The LHU-14 holster mentioned above in this thread is also for sale at the bottom of the page.

From google translate:
_Tactical flashlight, developed in collaboration with the police. The uniqueness of the Eden TDL 20 tactical flashlight is that, irrespective of the state in which he is always plotted in strobe mode comes on. This is a great benefit for police officers who use the stroboscope to 'amok maker "to disorient so it's easier to overpower. They're in a stressful situation with a flashlight that never in the wrong start. For "normal" use, the TDL 20 lamp also 3 light modes in which the lamp stays lit. 

The TDL 20 tactical flashlight has a switch that must be pressed to continue it on or off. This ensures that the momentary on position easier to use. 

In short, not a lamp for everyone, but perfect for police officers and security guards._


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## BWX

So get that light and mount it to my shotgun, get another and mount it to my AK. Check.


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## Grizzlyb

ghodan said:


> The light you are talking about , is the Eden TDL 20?
> http://www.knivesandtools.nl/nl/pt/-eden-tdl-20-tactische-zaklamp.htm
> 
> Or is a new model/revision being made as this light is already out for a few months and in your post you are saying that adjustments are still being worked on.



The first finnished result was issued in 2012 and since it is technically no weapon it can be sold by the manufacturer to the public. It still is a work in progress. Things like the spiral cord are improved.


----------



## ghodan

Grizzlyb said:


> The first finnished result was issued in 2012 and since it is technically no weapon it can be sold by the manufacturer to the public. It still is a woek in progress. Things like the spiral cord are improved.



So the ansi lumen output did not change in the new revisions?
I always thought that 280 lumen (site does not say ansi lumen) is a bit on the weak side.

In my amateur tests with only 5 lights:
116 ansi lumen small reflector
170 ansi lumen small reflector
337 ansi lumen medium reflector size - 11.592 CD (Fenix TK15 v1)
450 ansi lumen medium orange peel reflector - 6.380 CD (Jetbeam 3M XML)
650 ansi lumen medium reflector - 9.000 CD (Jetbeam BC25)

I find the 337 and 450 ansi lumen more effective then the 170 ansi lumen. No strobe used in test.
In two cases the target could look into my light at around 6 meter distance without closing or covering his eyes when using the 337 ansi lumen max output of the Fenix TK15 version 1.
When i use 650 ansi lumen no target would want to keep his eyes open.

Would more ansi lumen & candela output be more useful for a civilian that would use his light as a non lethal defensive tool? So the muscle spec lights like Nitecore EA4,P25,EC25.
And what is more important of the 2 output values for the blinding factor? Ansi lumen or CD/Candela ?


----------



## Grizzlyb

Hi Ghodan,

Thou more lumens seem to be better, it is not all in lumens. 
You should measure the amount of light that effectively hits the eye. 

To begin with (You have to start somewhere) we started with lots of other types, brands and sizes. 
No LEO will walk around with a 1 kilogram light 24/7. To big and that light will stay in the car. To small and it will not do the job. 

The 32mm size head had the best of both worlds. 
Small, light weight and sleek enough to carry every day without noticing and still good enough to do the job. 
So from this size we went ahead to other tactical requirements. 

The total of lumens You can get from a XM-L is very good, but that is not the only thing we desired in a real TL. 
We found that in the small 32cm reflector an XM-L had far to wide a spill. 
So we went experimenting with the XP-G. 
A little less lumens, but also less spill in that small reflector, and better power management. 
Also it had a better throw-like beam and the difference in lux measured on the target was not that much less from a XM-L in a same size head. 

The head of the Jetbeam BC25 and the Fenix 15 became to big, both 34mm heads, (3M has 33mm head) So that was to big.
(and also Fenix went from the more tactical TK12 with a rear switch to the TK15 with the side switch. Jetbeam has side switches to) 
Side switches are nice for civilian use, but totally non Tactical. 
So together with that side switch and the larger heads they dropped out. 

The TL we now ended with, has the most of all requirements in a 32mm head, still almost 300lm, has 9580 lux at 1m and has a tactical rear switch only. 

To answer Your question. Candela. 
A light bulb can have 500+ lumens and be not blinding at all.


----------



## Mr Floppy

bluemax_1 said:


> I've seen a couple of belligerent drunks immediately bend over and start throwing up from being strobed for several seconds.



I've wondered about that. Back in my 'yoof', I found myself getting rather nauseous when at a night club with some fast strobes. I would go to the night club after a few pints but I often put this down to the booze. I also attended an Underworld concert which had some strobes a long time ago. Felt sick and got a bit of a headache which I put down as the style of music. I figured that I have issues with strobes which is why fast flashing bicycle lights annoy me so much too but I'm wondering if this is common for most humans? A 'brown note' perhaps for the eyes?

Did your students have to spend time at the pub for your drunk tests?


----------



## bluemax_1

Mr Floppy said:


> I've wondered about that. Back in my 'yoof', I found myself getting rather nauseous when at a night club with some fast strobes. I would go to the night club after a few pints but I often put this down to the booze. I also attended an Underworld concert which had some strobes a long time ago. Felt sick and got a bit of a headache which I put down as the style of music. I figured that I have issues with strobes which is why fast flashing bicycle lights annoy me so much too but I'm wondering if this is common for most humans? A 'brown note' perhaps for the eyes?
> 
> Did your students have to spend time at the pub for your drunk tests?


Alcohol tends to reduce the capacity to withstand certain sensory stimuli. Although it can increase pain tolerance, it reduces the ability to withstand extreme visual (and auditory) stimuli, as well as anything affecting the inner ear and balance. Riding a rollercoaster while drunk probably won't work out too well.

Where a bright strobe can disorient a sober person, it can affect a drunk person even more.

The one thing I'm curious about is if specific strobe frequencies/rates have a more severe effect on the average person than other frequencies. Especially with my personal experience with a particular light that had a different strobe rate from the rate used by Fenix and 4/7's. As I stated in an earlier post, as distracting as the other strobes were, after only a few seconds of that one particular light's strobe mode, I felt queasy and even a little off balance.

I might have to get a strobe light with a variable rate to try some tests. If we can find a particularly effective strobe rate, we can ask manufacturers to use that rate for tactical strobes. I asked Grizzlyb if any of their testing focused on that particular aspect (if a particular frequency or one of these fluctuating frequency strobes was more effective than others), but he never responded. Maybe he missed the question.


Max


----------



## Ishango

Thanks GrizzlyB for posting this. Learned a few new things about TL and also nice to know the story behind the Eden TDL 20 as well. My former sensei is one of your colleague trainers and told me about the interesting research you guys do. Thanks for sharing!


----------



## Grizzlyb

bluemax_1 said:


> I asked Grizzlyb if any of their testing focused on that particular aspect (if a particular frequency or one of these fluctuating frequency strobes was more effective than others), but he never responded. Maybe he missed the question.
> 
> 
> Max


 
*My Bad. .Max* 

For a short while I was in Istanbul and I didn't see that Question. 
I did write shortly about the speed of the strobe in the starting article. 
But to answer Your question more completely: 

Yes we experimented with different strobe speeds. 

The alternating strobe that some lights used was discarded in an early stage. 
There where to many moments in that strobe period, that where tactically not useable. 
We found, that with a slow or changing strobe (slower then around 10hz to 12hz), the opponent was able to (slowly) move their hands without being detected. That goes both for the slow and the alternating strobes that come within that range. 

We also found that with a strobe in the 18hz to 20hz range this problem was gone. Every movement was detected instantly. The 20hz range was still highly effective and best useable for our purpose. Higher strobe frequencies, above 24hz, where less effective. The opponent was still a bit irritated by Strobe, but was better able to estimate the distance to the officer. 

It is not easy to determine exactly when the strobe frequencies became to low or to high. We couldn't get any closer then that. 
In between the 12 and 18 is a bit of a gray area of personal dislike. Over the whole range from around 6 to 24 the opponent has more difficulty to estimate distances and orientation problems. Much more then a standard high intesity light without strobe. 

*Mr.Floppy *
Our students already stay way to much time in the pub, without us telling them to 

No, the results are from encounters with drunks that came back to us from Police officers during there duty. (arresting those drunks that caused a public problem) 

Your issues with flashing lights is not very common, but do sometimes occur. 
Some people are over sensitive for strobe lights. It is called photosensitivity. 
Mostly it is caused by exposure to strobing lights for several minutes. 
It is little common (3%) with children and adolescents, and even less common when people get older. 

Short periods of strobe lights during training did not trigger these conditions with the students or other officers we trained with. So apparently it has to do with the time period people are exposed to strobing lights. 
Maybe this shines a light on Your headaches?

*Ishango*,
Thanks, 

Your welcome to visit the training compound.
We have several high graded and well respected sensei's among the trainers. (I know who You revere to, and he is a *very* well respected and liked person to (and dangerous )
They all worked hard to get as much info as possible on this subject.
On this matter I speak in their name, and I owe them much.


----------



## bluemax_1

Thanks for the added info on your experiences with different strobe rates. I might still go ahead and get a strobe light with a variable rate to try some tests.


Max


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## Grizzlyb

Hi Bluemax,

Ok mate,

My TK75 has an alternating strobe, and is my favorit light at the moment, nothing wrong with experimenting Your selve.


----------



## bluemax_1

Grizzlyb said:


> Hi Bluemax,
> 
> Could you start a seperate topic about developing lights into weapons?
> I don't want this thread go in that direction.



No problem. My apologies. I'll remove the extraneous material from my post.


Max


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## scottyhazzard

Nice and informative, thanks. I have light that I use that has strobe and found the light most effective at its maximum strobe rate of 15htz. I am an emergency room nurse and have found a strobe to be very helpful. We have patients that psychotic irrational and combative on most days. The light has stopped a number of patients charging to attack or in the midst of losing control. With the light in their eyes, they can't coordinate a good punch and it usually causes them to close their eyes and shield their eyes. Just as you wrote earlier it is as though they present an arm for another nurse or security guard to reach out and grab in order to safely subdue the patient. Often the beam to the eyes gives the patients pause for thought and we can safely de-escalate without restraining them or risk injury to the patients or staff. Something interesting that I have noticed is that there has been no benefit using the light on patients that are already laying down. I am intrigued by your research and would love to some day get a translated copy. Our staff and security guards have to grapple with the assaultive patients and commonly someone gets hurt. There is a prevailing belief that someone will have a seizure if there is a strobing light and even some doctors have requested that I refrain from using the light. Even after I show them the data I have collected regarding photonic seizures. (Statistically the patients are at higher risk of injury from a "Take Down", from being injected with haldol or even just being in the hospital for 24hrs) The best study to date was of only 170 individuals, no controls or randomizing of subjects, a poor study. In your work developing this light did your officers report causing seizures in any of the individuals that they strobed? Thanks for any information you can provide.


----------



## Patriot

Great information about strobe Grizz. I first became interested in it's capabilities when the WiseLED 1000 came about. I had never experienced such strong handicapping effects from a light before I was on the wrong end that one. We used to compare it's effects on subjects, sometimes that would be me, against MagChargers, Streamlights, M6's and later HID and weapon lights mounted to sims. Our "testing" (experimentation really) wasn't nearly as thorough as what you've compiled but I've always valued strobe, on a proper light, as a "control" element. In any case, I really enjoyed that read and appreciate your expertise on the subject.



Grizzlyb said:


> L,HU 14-35.
> From what I remember the book Ken wrote is 99% about firearms and it came on the market in 2006 or 2007. I can't remember he talked about research on the frequencies of strobe, or designing dedicated TL for police use, but You can maybe correct me on that.



Yeah, it was 2006. The Oscillating/Strobing section of the book is short (pages 42 & 43) and Ken doesn't really go into the different frequencies of strobe. He mentions that the eyes store images for about 1/25 of a second and then goes into some details about Rhodopsin and light sensitivity. He also talks about diminished spatial orientation and depth perception which seems to echo many of the things you've written on.


----------



## Grizzlyb

scottyhazzard said:


> In your work developing this light did your officers report causing seizures in any of the individuals that they strobed? Thanks for any information you can provide.


 
Thanks Scottyhazzard, for sharing Your experience with us. 
We never thought about the Strobe being use in Your profession. 
It is good to read that in other branches the results are about the same. 

We did the tests with tactical lights over a period of almost 7 years with different sorts of lights and Strobes. 
The initial group we tested with was about 400 students and police officers. 
After that period we gave a presentation and training in Amsterdam in 2010 and 2012 for about 350 Police trainers. 
Since that presentation We give this training with tactical lights, with this type of 20hz strobe, on a monthly base to groups of 16 to 20 students per training. 
In all these trainings we have NEVER had a case of epileptic condition of any kind. 
The number of officers we trained should be above the 1500 by now. 
In the Netherlands the LEO's are average in health, male65% female35%, all weight and age groups. 
Thou the students where roughly in the age group between 19 and 35. 
You are 100% right in your remark about the choice in risks. The chance of risk with strobe is by far less then about any other means to control aggressive patients. 

We do have a lot of experience in that direction. 
We have a special training for controlling aggressive patients. Mental clinics in Amsterdam have a facility were they retain violent patients. They call the police that has special trained officers for this problem. 
We control those patients with a team of 4 officers, working tightly together, coordinating the control of arms and legs in a very fast procedure. We don't want to restrict the patient to long, for risk of injury. So, we found that using the strobe in the first 3 seconds of entry, disorientate the patient enough to get a safe grip on him/her, without any injury (to them or us). Any other solution had worse side effects and did more harm. 

Hope this helps Your work and afford in this. 

*Hi Patriot* 

Thanks on the update on Ken. I was not sure about what I remembered. 
We did some research on possible medical effects of the subject. A lot info on how light works in the eye, but less good medical research info on Strobe effects for the eye. 
Rhodopsin is extremely sensitive to light. That is the stuff responsible for enabling vision in low-light conditions. 
So, it should be the part that is effected by Light intensity. 
The Strobe seems to have more effect on the brain and how the brain translates the info from the eyes. 
Ken was way ahead of us in some parts. 
After 2006 there where a lot of technical innovations. So much that we could use them to innovate our tactics also.
Seems we went on where he stopped (in the book).
It is good to see the results confirm each other.


----------



## Patriot

Grizzlyb said:


> Ken was way ahead of us in some parts.
> After 2006 there where a lot of technical innovations. So much that we could use them to innovate our tactics also.
> Seems we went on where he stopped (in the book).
> It is good to see the results confirm each other.




Yeah, it's very cool! Perhaps it's you turn to publish something!


----------



## scottyhazzard

Thanks Grizzlyb, that does indeed help. I'll be drafting a proposal for a study/trial at my hospital quite soon. I hope we can get some progress and achieve something similar here.


----------



## Grizzlyb

Patriot said:


> Yeah, it's very cool! Perhaps it's you turn to publish something!



Hmm, Yes, that's a thought worth thinking about. 
I am still in the middle of developing new idea's and hardware. 
But when things quiet down a bit, I should find time and write it down. 

On the other hand, WHEN I am finished writing, and publish the end product, . . . . . Some hotshot will come around and tell me that the world is already 7 years ahead. Technical development is far past the point I started writing .


----------



## holylight

Thanks for sharing, salute.


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## scottyhazzard

Grizzlyb said:


> On the other hand, WHEN I am finished writing, and publish the end product, . . . . . Some hotshot will come around and tell me that the world is already 7 years ahead. Technical development is far past the point I started writing .




Yes publish in English so I can site you as a source when I launch my project. You are the hotshot 7 years ahead of the world. If there is anyone else out there doing anything similar the are not published and I will wager they don't have 7 years of data under their belt. Good data is a building point for future studies and more research. 

The cops in LA are experimenting with the "Vomit Light" that has a bunch of LED's that flash in different patterns and different colors and makes a 3D Mag light look like a pocket light. The only time someone will pull that thing out is when there is a high probability of media coverage.

I second Patriot, please publish.


----------



## Grizzlyb

scottyhazzard said:


> I second Patriot, please publish.



I'll think about it seriously. It will take time though, lots off time.


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## Xacto

Grizzlyb said:


> [...] I should find time and write it down.
> [...]I started writing .



If available to the public, I will buy it. And I assume it should be easier then getting the Ken J. Good book from the states (and even that did work even though the postage was quite high)

Cheers
Thorsten


----------



## ghodan

The new model you are working on, does it have more lumens&candela output then the current TDL 20? Wil the new model also made by Knives&tools (Kato group) ? And is the current Eden TLD 20 actualy made by Fenix on request of Kato Group?


----------



## Grizzlyb

ghodan said:


> The new model you are working on, does it have more lumens&candela output then the current TDL 20? Wil the new model also made by Knives&tools (Kato group) ? And is the current Eden TLD 20 actualy made by Fenix on request of Kato Group?


We did contact Fenix in 2010/2011, if they would be willing to make some changes to one of their lights, so it would fit our needs. 
Communication was difficult and translations from English to Chinese where making it even harder.
In the end they didn't want to make a dedicated tactical light for Police forces. 
They where contend with the TK line they made, and we had to do our jobs with the TK line. That was not an option, 
So, the *TDL20* (not TLD20) is not made by Fenix. (TDL stands for Tactical Defens Light)

More lumens, probably Yes, maybe with the new XP-G2 R5.? We'll see. 
But it is not really necessary to get more lumens, nice but not needed.
For the other part of Your question, I can't elaborate on that at the moment.

*Thanks Xacto*.





I have a hard time telling myself, that I have to much on hand already


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## kaimi72

Thank you very much for sharing, Koen! :thumbsup:

I have a question concerning

"*7.* 100 % reliable under heavy duty. (hand to hand combat tests, drop tests and water tests should be of standard required level)": 

did you do the said tests with the Eden TDL20? Out of experience I don't trust Chinese-made lights too much... 

Thank you
Kai


----------



## Grizzlyb

kaimi72 said:


> Thank you very much for sharing, Koen! :thumbsup:
> 
> I have a question concerning
> 
> "*7.* 100 % reliable under heavy duty. (hand to hand combat tests, drop tests and water tests should be of standard required level)":
> 
> did you do the said tests with the Eden TDL20? Out of experience I don't trust Chinese-made lights too much...
> 
> Thank you
> Kai



Yes we did those tests. 

In early days, 2006, we bought over 100 SF E2e's. (The total over 2 years was 150) 
After 4 Years, only 65 still worked. (so we really mistreat these lights) 

Since that experience, we are very strict about having reliable material. 
After that, we went to Fenix. Nice lights, had potential, but they started producing Tacticool Lights for the public and not for LEO. 

We fight with those TDL's, hand to hand, and thousands of punches are thrown with the light in your fist. 
We dropped it over 100 times from shoulder height 150cm, submerged it for several hours (with the light on), 
We even have thrown the lights at a wall from about 4 meters. Still works. 

From all the test TDL's, about 400 total, only 2 lights of the 1st version had some problems with the print board. It seemed to be it was,at the time, not soldered in place. 
The 2nd version was soldered and after that we never had any problems with the lights. 
The latest version, I think this is vs 3. is working flawless. 

But we will not stop improving on the development of dedicated Police Tactical Lights. 
If that means that in the future an other manufacturer is going to make an even better light, to our requirements, that's OK with us.
Problem is, From all the mayor light manufactures, none would think about building a Tactical Light to other specs than their own idea's. :shakehead

So, there are no quality problems with these TDL20, that we know of.
Only time can tell if these lights will be worse than our E2e's. They got a good headstart though.


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## sinnyc

ghodan said:


> The light you are talking about , is the Eden TDL 20?
> http://www.knivesandtools.nl/nl/pt/-eden-tdl-20-tactische-zaklamp.htm
> 
> Or is a new model/revision being made as this light is already out for a few months and in your post you are saying that adjustments are still being worked on.



I think I found UK site for these lights. Helpful for those of us (like me  ) who don't speak German!

http://www.edenwebshops.co.uk/en/pt/-eden-tdl-20-tactical-torch.htm


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## Grizzlyb

Hi Sinnyc,

These lights will, at the moment, not come with the spiral cord that we have attached to the TDL20 for the Dutch police.
That's the latest developement. 
The manufacturer is in the proces of integrating this in the product.


----------



## sinnyc

Grizzlyb said:


> Hi Sinnyc,
> 
> These lights will, at the moment, not come with the spiral cord that we have attached to the TDL20 for the Dutch police.
> That's the latest developement.
> The manufacturer is in the proces of integrating this in the product.



Thanks Grizzlyb. It's just nice to be able to read the specs, heheheh.


----------



## kaimi72

Thanks alot Grizzly, 

I will give the said light a try. 

Be safe
Kai


----------



## Grizzlyb

If You need a spiral cord,
PM me, I still have some laying around. 
I'll send it to You, no problem.


----------



## kaimi72

Unfortunately I'm not yet allowed to send PM. I'll try to contact you via Michael. 

I just found out that the TDL20 fits perfectly in the Surefire V70 "quickdraw" holster, which I prefer working plain clothes. Great!


----------



## Grizzlyb

kaimi72 said:


> I just found out that the TDL20 fits perfectly in the Surefire V70 "quickdraw" holster, which I prefer working plain clothes. Great!


PM is received and answered.
The TDL20 fits the Surefire V70. But Upside down (tactical) it will be a bit to long, the head won't go in all the way.






The V70 was only designed to draw lights like the E2e properly. Not lights with larger 32mm heads.


The wrong side up it will fit deeper, but then You can't opperate the switch.





And You'll better remove that ring. It wil not fit easy, (and we never use it in real life.)


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## Poppy

Since this hasn't been made a sticky, I'd like to suggest that this thread get added to Unforgiven's list of interesting threads.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...-General-Flashlight-Forum-Threads-of-interest


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## Poppy

Grizzlyb,
I was at OneStopThrow dot com and he has a discussion about the use of aspherical lenses and how they increase throw, and eliminate spill. I wonder if there is a way to mount an aspherical lens to the front on a flip. Some diffusers on mounted so that you can flip them into place, and out of place when not needed. Replaceing the flashlight into the holster would require flipping the lens back into place, so that the default would be "in place" No Spill. If the LEO wants a floodier beam, he can move the aspherical lens out of the way, after he pulls th elight from the holster.

Just a thought.


----------



## Grizzlyb

Poppy said:


> Grizzlyb,
> I was at OneStopThrow dot com and he has a discussion about the use of aspherical lenses and how they increase throw, and eliminate spill. I wonder if there is a way to mount an aspherical lens to the front on a flip. Some diffusers on mounted so that you can flip them into place, and out of place when not needed. Replaceing the flashlight into the holster would require flipping the lens back into place, so that the default would be "in place" No Spill. If the LEO wants a floodier beam, he can move the aspherical lens out of the way, after he pulls th elight from the holster.
> 
> Just a thought.



And a nice thought it is .
We thought about aspherical and TIR lenses in an earlyer stage, but never came back on the subject. 
We'll have a meeting with the manufacturer next month and bring this up again, thanks for thinking with us.


----------



## bluemax_1

Grizzlyb said:


> And a nice thought it is .
> We thought about aspherical and TIR lenses in an earlyer stage, but never came back on the subject.
> We'll have a meeting with the manufacturer next month and bring this up again, thanks for thinking with us.



Based on your experiences and my own, you could try aspherical lenses, but I'd avoid them. The downside to a light with a super intense hotspot but no spill is that you can temporarily blind someone easily, but because of the lack of spill, you might not see what he has in his hands, which could be very dangerous.

That's one of the greatest advantages I've found in current lighting technology advancements, unlike the old days, we're no longer restricted to relatively low lumens where you need to decide to use all the lumens in the hotspot, or in the flood/spill. We can have both, a very intense hotspot, and still have a decent spill for seeing the rest of the picture.

Note that for these specific purposes, there's a significant difference between a 'floody' light, and one with an intense hotspot that still has decent spill. A floody light like the ZL SC600 is NOT one I would consider using, because it doesn't have a very intense hotspot, i.e. its effect on someone's vision is not as acute. I prefer very intense hotspots (20,000 candela or higher), but with decent spill so the whole target is illuminated. Also helps when sweeping a dark alley etc.

On the other hand, I've played with aspherical lens lights, some of which are focused so acutely, when you shine it at a wall, you see the exact image of the LED emitter. I did not like this at all. At distances up to 30-40 yards, these lights with no spill would only light up a person's face and shoulders, and leave their hands in the dark. The brighter the light, the greater the 'tunnel vision' effect where you (the user) couldn't see much outside of the bright hotspot. Over here where you never know who might have a handgun, not having enough spill to see if they're holding something can be really bad, even if it's a knife, especially if you close the distance.

As always, your needs and decisions may differ when you actually try these types of lights, but this is just some food for thought.


Max


----------



## LetThereBLight

First post here, excited to join! Had no idea there are people out there so passioned about flashlights but after reading some of these posts, I suddenly feel the urge to upgrade (or at least change batteries in) some of mine 

Back to the police tactical strobes though: I am curious as to why the choice of the emitter was an LED and not a laser diode? It would appear that the requested luminosity can be easily achieved with (relatively) inexpensive laser diodes of recent manufacture. In addition, they come in various colors and I would think that the color of the beam would also be taken into consideration - for example, humans are very sensitive to green. So, why use white LED and "waste" energy on all that spectrum that we are not terribly sensitive to if you can create a coherent green beam and blind someone using just a fraction of the energy? 

Gotta say though, I don't know if green specifically would be more efficient than, say, red in terms of its strobing effect on the unfortunate human - you would think that someone who created a detailed spec like that would at least do some preliminary study.


Anyway, question still remains: why LED and not a laser diode? 


Cheers, everyone, and stay away from the [strobing] light!


----------



## Grizzlyb

bluemax_1 said:


> As always, your needs and decisions may differ when you actually try these types of lights, but this is just some food for thought.
> 
> Max



Thanks Max,

You mirror our thoughts on the subject.

The light that we need is a good blinding hotspot and indeed just enough soft spill to get the opponent from head to toe, somewhere at a distance of about 3 to 7 yards.
We don't know enough about aspherics and TIR. That's why we played with the idea to experiment with it. There always seems to be just a little to improve. That's the beauty of innovation. 

But for the moment the throwy beam pattern of the light we have, is doing what we expect from it. 
And we know for sure there are no health problems at this level. 
If we experiment more, that could mean that we reach the point it is not safe anymore.
We can't take any risks with this technology. 
Happy with what we have, it works the way we need it to work, and better in ways we didn't expect.


----------



## bluemax_1

Grizzlyb,

I hear what you're saying about safe levels. While experimenting with bigger lights, I found that lights in the 50,000+ candela range were getting too extreme. Where the 20,000-30,000 candela lights would temporarily impair a subjects vision quite effectively at close range out to ~25-30 yards, the 50,000+ candela lights could be painful at close range (a conclusion shared by the voluntary test subjects). I definitely would not advise blasting someone in the face from close range with like a TK75 or brighter. 

Lights below 10,000 candela weren't as effective.

Once again, thanks for sharing your experiences and the results of your research and testing. The more and better data there is, the greater the opportunity for better results.


Max


----------



## Grizzlyb

bluemax_1 said:


> Grizzlyb,
> I definitely would not advise blasting someone in the face from close range with like a TK75 or brighter.
> Max



I agree completely.
Even with light adepted eyes in day time, I would not use my TK75 on someone at close range.
I don't like what it does to my eyes, so I dont want to do that to an other.

When it is enough to do the job well, that's enough for us, no need to overdo things.

Grizz


----------



## Streak

bluemax_1 said:


> Based on your experiences and my own, you could try aspherical lenses, but I'd avoid them. The downside to a light with a super intense hotspot but no spill is that you can temporarily blind someone easily, but because of the lack of spill, you might not see what he has in his hands, which could be very dangerous.
> 
> That's one of the greatest advantages I've found in current lighting technology advancements, unlike the old days, we're no longer restricted to relatively low lumens where you need to decide to use all the lumens in the hotspot, or in the flood/spill. We can have both, a very intense hotspot, and still have a decent spill for seeing the rest of the picture.
> 
> Note that for these specific purposes, there's a significant difference between a 'floody' light, and one with an intense hotspot that still has decent spill. A floody light like the ZL SC600 is NOT one I would consider using, because it doesn't have a very intense hotspot, i.e. its effect on someone's vision is not as acute. I prefer very intense hotspots (20,000 candela or higher), but with decent spill so the whole target is illuminated. Also helps when sweeping a dark alley etc.
> 
> On the other hand, I've played with aspherical lens lights, some of which are focused so acutely, when you shine it at a wall, you see the exact image of the LED emitter. I did not like this at all. At distances up to 30-40 yards, these lights with no spill would only light up a person's face and shoulders, and leave their hands in the dark. The brighter the light, the greater the 'tunnel vision' effect where you (the user) couldn't see much outside of the bright hotspot. Over here where you never know who might have a handgun, not having enough spill to see if they're holding something can be really bad, even if it's a knife, especially if you close the distance.
> 
> As always, your needs and decisions may differ when you actually try these types of lights, but this is just some food for thought.
> 
> 
> Max



One could still use an aspherical lensed light but defocused so as not to make the beam so tight.
I have been playing with the various versions of the single AA zoomable lights with the aspherical lens and this seems like it would work quite well.
It would give you a fairly tight very bright light with enough spill to illuminate the target fully.
[h=1][/h]


----------



## bluemax_1

Streak said:


> One could still use an aspherical lensed light but defocused so as not to make the beam so tight.
> I have been playing with the various versions of the single AA zoomable lights with the aspherical lens and this seems like it would work quite well.
> It would give you a fairly tight very bright light with enough spill to illuminate the target fully.
> [h=1][/h]


That's a potential possibility, but the zoomable asphericals I've played with tend to produce a much more even beam, i.e. unlike typical reflector based lights which have a more intense hotspot and a dimmer spill, the asphericals tended to produce a more even beam with defined edges and less variation within the beam (no real hotspot vs spill).

That tends to mean lower candela output if you defocus the beam and make the spot bigger (which is less effective at disorienting someone), and still tends to produce tunnel vision with things outside the disc of light that the asphericals produced. I find the typical beam in the tight hotspot, reflector based flashlights these days to be a very practical design. A more intense hotspot (compared to floody lights), but enough spill to illuminatea wider area, preventing the tunnel vision effect.


Max


----------



## ThrowerLover

Hey, Grizz, I'm not an LEO, but I'm curious - has your research looked at the best way to defend against a strobelight assault? Obviously, the bad guys are sometimes armed with the same "tools" as the good guys, hence the use of a bulletproof vest. Any recourse or strategies for if/when the offender (or offenders) has a puke-inducing strobe?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk. So, yeah, I'm pretty much all that.


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## Grizzlyb

ThrowerLover said:


> Any recourse or strategies for if/when the offender (or offenders) has a puke-inducing strobe?



Run? 

Even LEO's have a hard time adapting to these "new" possibility's that high lumens LED lights bring us. 
The bad guys are not aware of it at the moment. That will change. But I don't think we will see all the bad guys preparing for strobe's. They never adapted to spray either.
So, sadly, the bad guys will depend on their knives, swords, axes, guns and what ever violence they need, to make their jobs easy.

Tactical Lights, (strobes) are just a way to get a nice advantage over a bad situation. The owner has to learn how to best use that advantage. 
That's the main trick.


----------



## RemingtonBPD

Grizzlyb said:


> Run?
> 
> Even LEO's have a hard time adapting to these "new" possibility's that high lumens LED lights bring us.
> The bad guys are not aware of it at the moment. That will change. But I don't think we will see all the bad guys preparing for strobe's. They never adapted to spray either.
> So, sadly, the bad guys will depend on their knives, swords, axes, guns and what ever violence they need, to make their jobs easy.
> 
> Tactical Lights, (strobes) are just a way to get a nice advantage over a bad situation. The owner has to learn how to best use that advantage.
> That's the main trick.



Great post. As a LEO I have been carrying the Gladius on my duty belt since it came out, as it was the most effective tactical light with switchable strobe function. Although I found it helpful with intoxicated individuals, in most normal duty situations I never use it. I also have found that even if you have a high enough candlepower light, a quick burst into a persons eyes was sufficient to disorient them enough for me to make any tactical move I needed. Everyone in my department has busted on me for years as the "flashlight guy" because I always have several (redundancy is imperative in our business), and have tried many different manufacturers. I believe that it is an integral part of the job and it has many uses and advantages. Your write up is a great piece of that work. Stay safe


----------



## texas cop

Grizzleb I've been reading your post, you have showed some real insight with research in good strobe use. I've observed a few traits that people have when using flashlights in my experiences. The worst is staying fixed on the lights field themselves. Officers forget that more maybe happening outside the spill and fail to scan around with the light. Being nearly human myself I find that I prefer lots of spill and lots of lumen. Fast strobe, 600+ lumen XM-L's, I want to stun the drunk while seeing his not so drunk friend trying to sneak up beside me. This same light off of strobe will be the one I search with, I want to flood the area. Another item you might try is dual strobe led's. I've shined the stobe at the dog a few times she usually ignores it, but when I had 2 lights on strobe pointed at her she puked after about 5 seconds. Dual out of sync strobes really mess one up even sober.


----------



## kaimi72

> I've shined the stobe at the dog a few times she usually ignores it, but when I had 2 lights on strobe pointed at her she puked after about 5 seconds.



You shoot 600+ lumens in the eyes of your dog?! Or did I get you wrong?


----------



## texas cop

kaimi72 said:


> You shoot 600+ lumens in the eyes of your dog?! Or did I get you wrong?


NEXTORCH myTorch Single AA LED Flashlight, 1W CREE XP-E R3 LED, 70 Lumens each.


----------



## Grizzlyb

texas cop said:


> Grizzleb I've been reading your post, you have showed some real insight with research in good strobe use. I've observed a few traits that people have when using flashlights in my experiences. The worst is staying fixed on the lights field themselves. Officers forget that more maybe happening outside the spill and fail to scan around with the light. Being nearly human myself I find that I prefer lots of spill and lots of lumen. Fast strobe, 600+ lumen XM-L's, I want to stun the drunk while seeing his not so drunk friend trying to sneak up beside me. This same light off of strobe will be the one I search with, I want to flood the area. Another item you might try is dual strobe led's. I've shined the stobe at the dog a few times she usually ignores it, but when I had 2 lights on strobe pointed at her she puked after about 5 seconds. Dual out of sync strobes really mess one up even sober.



About flood, 
The light we have now, has a not to deep, narrow 32mm head. 
We look for the perfect condition for the job we need, and that is as blinding as possible (for a light this size). 
When you look down from a satellite at Amsterdam, you'll see that 99% of the time we are not in total darkness. (constant light polution) Mostly there is enough light to see. 

Keep in mind, that we rather have a 300lm throw light that brings 9000 candela in the eyes, than 600lm flood light that brings only 4000 candela in the eyes. 
When there is to much flood, the light sets both officers in the light also. 

We tried flood lights and more throw lights. The throw lights had enough spill and re-bounce to do the job, without putting the officers in full daylight. 
With a flood light you need to crank-up the lummens so high to get the same blinding effect, that there is way to much light in the rest of the place.

But it sometimes depends on the surroundings. Outside the town, in the darkness of an open field, we prefer a big 2600lm throw/flood light like the TK75. 

We have some "puke like" experiences with double strobes to. 
When we approach a person on 2 sides in a tactical V, and both at the same time use our fast strobe on the person, many times they reported a nauseous feeling.


----------



## texas cop

We do have a huge difference here. Your officers work in pairs or better, most of us over here work solo. Our backup is a radio call away, not my favorite option. If you want a partner here then work a high risk area or become a field training officer. Fortunately when the officer in need call hit the city lights up as everyone wants to respond. But as far as our flashlights and us it's a solo run.


----------



## Grizzlyb

texas cop said:


> We do have a huge difference here. Your officers work in pairs or better, most of us over here work solo. Our backup is a radio call away, not my favorite option. If you want a partner here then work a high risk area or become a field training officer. Fortunately when the officer in need call hit the city lights up as everyone wants to respond. But as far as our flashlights and us it's a solo run.



In some city's, chiefs tried that in the Netherlands several times, mainly to cut back on cost. 
Luckily those idiots where not widely spread and apart from some neighborhood officers, all response units are pairs, always.
We even train this way. 
Police officers school takes about 4 years in Netherlands.
After that, they have to do trainings and exams every year. We have to go throu training at least 32 hours a year. 
The latest in combat, shooting and tactics. Until our pension. Not a bad place to be a LEO. 

But then again, You guys reach pension probably sooner than we do.


----------



## RemingtonBPD

Grizzlyb said:


> In some city's, chiefs tried that in the Netherlands several times, mainly to cut back on cost.
> Luckily those idiots where not widely spread and apart from some neighborhood officers, all response units are pairs, always.
> We even train this way.
> Police officers school takes about 4 years in Netherlands.
> After that, they have to do trainings and exams every year. We have to go throu training at least 32 hours a year.
> The latest in combat, shooting and tactics. Until our pension. Not a bad place to be a LEO.
> 
> But then again, You guys reach pension probably sooner than we do.



I wouldn't be so sure. Each year we get more and more taken away from us. I just went from being able to retire with 20 years of service to now 25 years. We were able to collect our pension as soon as we retired under the old system. New system you can't collect it until you are age 55, even if you can retire before that with the 25 years service. Apparently the public and self serving politicians feel this job is easy and we should be doing it for less pay, benefits, and a crap pension. We are loathed until they need help and the crap hits the fan. Under paid and over worked. Tis the American Law Enforcement way now.


----------



## Grizzlyb

RemingtonBPD said:


> I wouldn't be so sure. Each year we get more and more taken away from us. I just went from being able to retire with 20 years of service to now 25 years. We were able to collect our pension as soon as we retired under the old system. New system you can't collect it until you are age 55, even if you can retire before that with the 25 years service. Apparently the public and self serving politicians feel this job is easy and we should be doing it for less pay, benefits, and a crap pension. We are loathed until they need help and the crap hits the fan. Under paid and over worked. Tis the American Law Enforcement way now.



Shall we swap places then? 

In 1972 they told me that, though our pay was not high, the pension was great. 
I would receive 86% of my last pay as a pension after 40 years work. 
5 years ago they changed the rules and I had to work till I was 60. (and have 70% pension)
This year they changed the rules again. 
Now police officers in the Netherlands will have to work until they are 67 years old. 

At the moment, I already have worked as a LEO for 41.5 years and still have to do 8.5 years. 
If they don't change the rules again, I will have worked as a LEO for half a century. 

And to know that the average live span of LEO's in the Netherlands is to be expected around 70. 
Ten years less then average for Dutch people.


----------



## Dave D

Hi Grizlyb,

really enjoyed reading this thread, I'm new to CPF and didn't even realise that such a forum existed.

I'm a UK Cop approaching 30 years service and retirement in September, if I was staying on longer I would be purchasing one of the TL's and the belt holder for it.

It's certainly different to the rubber Eveready torch that I took out on foot patrol with me 30 years ago, I quickly replaced it at my own expense with a D cell Maglite, much to the amusement of the old sweats that the newbie was spending his own money on equipment for the job!

I did buy a Surefire G2 when they first came out and then converted it to LED when Surefire started selling the replacement drop in LED units.

My force currently issues all officers with a Mini Maglite, mine is still in the box.

Unfortunately LEO's all over the world are being had over and I'm really lucky to be getting out with what I signed up for, and I must admit that I'm ready to go!

Thanks for all your efforts on this subject hopefully it will make a difference in the real world, which after all is what we all originally joined the job for.

Keep safe

Dave


----------



## flip

Grizzlyb, I'm sorry if I missed it in one of your posts in this thread but do you have any hard data you can share that helped you reach your conclusions regarding strobe use in flashlights? Specifically, how much slower or how much less accurate were the test subjects when confronted with: no additional light, a light with no strobe and a strobing light?


----------



## Grizzlyb

flip said:


> Specifically, how much slower or how much less accurate were the test subjects when confronted with: no additional light, a light with no strobe and a strobing light?



To learn from your training it is important to ask what the subjects felt about every step. So they know what it is like on the receiving end (as a suspect). 
Under low light conditions: (under no light conditions the effects where even stronger)

With no additional light the subjects where reacting normal, they could see the officer good enough to do there thing. Both party's where equal. 

With a normal light it was more difficult for the subjects to see the officer, but the distance to the officer was estimated fairly accurate. 
They where hindered a little but where still able to calculate their own plans and wait for a good opportunity to strike back. 

With additional strobe the subjects where not able to estimate the distance. 
Also they had a hard time focusing and concentrating on what to do, or make up plans for counter attack. 
They where by far more disorientated than with normal light or no light.

Thanks Dave,
Nice to hear that still some LEO,s can reach pension and enjoy it


----------



## Viet-Vet

Thank you,
I'm the Mayor of my town in Pennsylvania and we have 32 officers. I will be passing this thread on to my Chief of Polce for their tactical training.
Nicely done!


----------



## Slazmo

So the strobe on the Led Lenser MT7 is 50Hz - is that just too fast to be effective? Sounded like a bit of a gimik when I bought it!

I know the cat across the road didnt like it very much...


----------



## Grizzlyb

Slazmo said:


> So the strobe on the Led Lenser MT7 is 50Hz - is that just too fast to be effective? Sounded like a bit of a gimik when I bought it!



Sorry Slazmo, We can't give you a accurate answer on that one. We haven't tested strobes above 25Hz. 
Faster strobes seemed to lessen the disorienting effects. Strobe on 50Hz could be different. 
(my opinion is, that the faster you get, the less the effect. But no hard data on that.) 

For our use, there where reasons to use a strobe from 15Hz and faster. Strobes around the 18Hz to 20Hz had the best results.

But about that 50Hz?, 
The Led Lenser MT7 is a very interesting light. Personally I like it. But I thought the strobe frequency was 20Hz. 
At least that was in the one we tested.


----------



## bluemax_1

Grizzlyb said:


> We have some "puke like" experiences with double strobes to.
> When we approach a person on 2 sides in a tactical V, and both at the same time use our fast strobe on the person, many times they reported a nauseous feeling.


Hmmm... I noticed this effect too. It made me wonder if the effect would be similar if a manufacturer could program a 'staggered strobe' into a flashlight, i.e. using one LED, program the light so there would be two out of sync strobe frequencies, for example a 12Hz and a 14Hz, run concurrently. In other words, sometimes, the strobes flashes would sync up for a short duration, but within a few seconds, they would go out of sync. If it's possible with a single LED, it would be very disorienting.

The other possibility was the 2 head flashlights I've seen, but that would make things bulkier.

This was one of the things I was thinking about when I asked if your testing had revealed any particular strobe rate or strobe pattern to be more effective than others.

In testing with a variable rate strobe light (as I'd mentioned an interest in doing earlier in the thread), I've since found that strobe rates in the lower teens seem to be a little more disorienting than frequencies around 20hz or higher. It almost seems like the flashes alternating with the darkness increases the effect, whereas as the frequency/rate gets faster, it becomes more and more like a solid/constant light.

More testing is required, but it might be related to persistence of vision. Thanks to your research though, I know there's a lower limit to the strobe rate where, as you mentioned, it becomes difficult to notice small/slow hand movements (i.e. potentially reaching for a weapon etc.).


Max


----------



## Slazmo

Grizzlyb said:


> But about that 50Hz?,
> The Led Lenser MT7 is a very interesting light. Personally I like it. But I thought the strobe frequency was 20Hz.
> At least that was in the one we tested.



I am pretty sure that it states 50Hz but I could be wrong - couldn't find anything online about it? Either way I find that if I stare at the light in defense mode - I seem to go a little cross eyed and my pupils seem to fixate erratically. 

I found that if someone points it at me while in this mode, I can safely approach them if I drop my head slightly and dip my eyes - I can approach steadily without any issues.


----------



## matt4350

Why were the lights with 33mm and 34mm heads too big? I wonder why 1 or 2mm makes a difference. Is it because of the way the light is carried? Or is a larger head more uncomfortable on a belt?


----------



## Grizzlyb

matt4350 said:


> Why were the lights with 33mm and 34mm heads too big? I wonder why 1 or 2mm makes a difference. Is it because of the way the light is carried? Or is a larger head more uncomfortable on a belt?



*Hi Matt4350,*
For our work, smaller is better. If we could have the same light with a 30mm head we would.
Take a 32mm light and hold it beside a 34mm light. You'll see and feel a big difference.

Preparing a belt for a LEO is like building a sports motorbike. Just 1 ounce won't count, but 20 times 1 ounce WILL count.
If You have only 1 item on your belt 2mm won't be a bother.
But when you have a gun, extra magazine, pepperspray, radio, handcuffs, baton, ticketbook pouch, AND a light, then you can maybe imagine what we talk about. 
So we set a maximum to it. And still the light should have enough throw. Thats harder for a small size head.

*Hi Max,*
There were some individual differences between students. Some had problems with strobe in all frequency's, 10Hz as wel as 20Hz. 
Most from around 15Hz and higher. 
But in total, most disorientating effect was from 15Hz up to 20Hz (give or take 2Hz on both sides, it was difficult to pinpoint exactly where it starts.) 
For known reasons we could not use the below 10Hz frequency's. So we used the 18hz to be sure to stay out of the undesirable slow effects.

2 concurrently running lights in different hz, you probably have a good point. Worth working on that idea :thumbsup: 
Now we only have to find a manufacturer that can work with us. . . . .:tinfoil:

*Hi Slazmo*,

 You can safely approach them, head dropped and eyes dipped. . . . You'll never see it comming .
The hole trick is to get a tactical advantage. 

In total darkness You are like a blindmen fighting with a guy that can perfectly see.
In lowlight, depending on the level of light, it is more or less the same.


----------



## RemingtonBPD

Ugh that's awful Grizz.


----------



## Grizzlyb

RemingtonBPD said:


> Ugh that's awful Grizz.



Yeah, it did hit the LEO community hard. We'll probably need young people to push us around in wheelchairs.


----------



## bluemax_1

Grizzlyb said:


> Yeah, it did hit the LEO community hard. We'll probably need young people to push us around in wheelchairs.



Wow, forcing you guys to work till 67 AND with reduced pension? This isn't a pencil pushing sedentary job we're talking about.


Max


----------



## subwoofer

Grizzlyb said:


> *STROBE MODE*
> 
> Having said that, the right strobe needs some clear specs. We found out, that with a slow or changing strobe, the opponent was able to (slowly) move their hands without being detected.
> 
> We worked the strobe up to around 18hz to 20hz and that problem was tackled. At 20hz, the strobe was still extremely disorientating and the opponent could not move a finger without detection.
> 
> Best result on a tactical level is a beam as tight as possible. With this tight beam, all the light is concentrated in the eyes of the opponent.



To the OP, thanks for this really interesting write-up.

On the strength of this I've just set the strobe on an ArmyTek Predator V2.0 XP-G2 to 20Hz using an integrating sphere with oscilloscope connected and markers set to indicate the correct frequency. It took a few attempts as the strobe frequency ramps quite quickly, but got there eventually.

With the predator, I can have the head tight giving maximum output and head loose being the strobe, both with momentary operation.


----------



## texas cop

Well Grizzlyb its official your older than dirt. I've got 19 years in and started a little late. I don't think my body could handle this at 67 that's why we have bailiffs. Side note for you tactical light users if you strobe or just quick flash a drunk at say 20 degrees off right in a really dark night then stop. They still think and act like your 20 degrees off to the right.


----------



## Grizzlyb

texas cop said:


> Well Grizzlyb its official your older than dirt. I've got 19 years in and started a little late. I don't think my body could handle this at 67 that's why we have bailiffs. Side note for you tactical light users if you strobe or just quick flash a drunk at say 20 degrees off right in a really dark night then stop. They still think and act like your 20 degrees off to the right.


Yeah, works every time  always brings a smile.


----------



## ledmitter_nli

Is anyone brave enough to challenge this thread?

I mean seriously, from the 1st opening post: *"Having said that, the right strobe needs some clear specs. We found out, that with a slow or changing strobe, the opponent was able to (slowly) move their hands without being detected."*

Then: *"We worked the strobe up to around 18hz to 20hz and that problem was tackled. At 20Hz, the strobe was still extremely disorientating and the opponent could not move a finger without detection."

*Why would you increase the frequency to gain clarity? You are giving the opponent clarity as well. If it's no longer disorienting for the officer, it won't be disorienting to the adversary. As an analogy, it's like pepper spray. It will effect both, just matters where and the intensity of where it's pointed at.

Hear me out.

I recently acquired the Eagletac TX25C2 and I wanted to test its strobe variations against several lights. 1st the Klarus XT11. I *thought* the Klarus was king of strobes until I experienced something from a different light. I wanted to test for myself because I'm really an avid fan of the Klarus with its dual switch system. The XT11 oscillates between 15.0Hz and 6Hz every two seconds. I've placed the light 7 meters away, shut the lights, and I was able to walk towards it without feeling much disorientation. Annoying yes, but confusing? No. I thought the Klarus was about as disorienting as strobes go. I've went along with this assessment for awhile-perhaps because I haven't experienced anything better. Then there's the Eagletac MX25L2 which has two strobe modes. Also FAIL. 1st mode is a steady 13.5Hz. Still too fast. Second mode alternates between 20hz and ***8.8Hz every two seconds. Same thing. FAIL. At 20Hz it's more like an annoying bright light with buzzy modulation. So 20Hz IMO fly's in the face of the OP's experience,* "We worked the strobe up to around 18hz to 20hz and that problem was tackled. At 20Hz, the strobe was still extremely disorientating and the opponent could not move a finger without detection."* I'm sorry but even at 20Hz I still had very good balance and perception of my surroundings. He expresses at 20Hz the opponent can't move a finger without detection, so to the opponent, the police officer *can move* without detection (disoriented)? This doesn't make sense. If it truly effects the opponent it would also effect the police officer. In other words, it doesn't effect either-or, so 20Hz doesn't work altogether. ***The 8.8Hz phase of the aforementioned alternating frequency was a bit more disorienting but a little too slow to confuse me.

Then there's the Eagletac TX25C2 which has some different numbers and this is where something INTERESTING is happening.

This TX25C2 like the MX25L2 also has two strobe modes. The second mode (which I want to eliminate upfront) alternates between 15.0Hz and 6.5Hz. That FAILS as well. But the 1st mode ..... *a steady 9.6Hz*. Whoah. I don't know what it is, if it's syncing with the peaks of my brainwaves visual cortex (or something), but walking towards a stroboscopic *9.6Hz* I LOSE MY SENSE OF BALANCE. It is TRULY disorienting. "Disorienting" in a manner where the word isn't *******ized as some cool tacticool cliché. It. Is. Disorienting.

Now this is my personal testimony, and it fly's in the face of, "We worked the strobe up to around 18hz to 20hz and that problem was tackled." I don't see how a strobe frequency that is so fast that it helps alleviate disorientation for one won't do the same for the other. It either works and will effect everybody experiencing it. Or it doesn't. Frequencies don't play favors to one and not the other.

I wanted to put this out there. If you have the TX25C2, test this out. Put it in tactical mode, turn on its mode 3, shut the lights and start walking towards it. If you have a bright stroboscopic simulator test it. It makes me wonder if Eagletac actually researched this out and didn't just choose an arbitrary frequency number for the sake of marketing.

The Klarus XT11's strobe lacks in comparison now, I have to admit. But its 2 button interface is still awesome.

(Much thanks to selfbuilt for his review tested frequency numbers.)


----------



## tsask

Grizzlyb
1. your English is fine, way to go! thanks for posting this so I could read it here in the USA.
2 this is an excellent presentation of this topic because of the way it was described as a "safety feature" or "medical case issue" as opposed to the "verbotten" topic at CPF of using a flashlight as a weapon.
3. the use of strobe is not an end all answer to all deranged indviduals or deliberately violent interpersonal encounters, yet it is a viable non lethal, "time buying" measure as in buying enough time to escape or take other actions.
4. Thanks for your rational objective analysis of this topic.:wave:


----------



## ledmitter_nli

tsask said:


> Grizzlyb
> 1. your English is fine, way to go! thanks for posting this so I could read it here in the USA.
> 2 this is an excellent presentation of this topic because of the way it was described as a "safety feature" or "medical case issue" as opposed to the "verbotten" topic at CPF of using a flashlight as a weapon.
> 3. the use of strobe is not an end all answer to all deranged indviduals or deliberately violent interpersonal encounters, yet it is a viable non lethal, "time buying" measure as in buying enough time to escape or take other actions.
> 4. Thanks for your rational objective analysis of this topic.:wave:



It is an analysis, but it isn't gospel. This needs more research IMO from what I've experienced.

I'm sure the DOD has something more definitive to say about the subject.

Absolutely, there is no expectation that a strobe should be regarded as anything more than a blinding tool.


----------



## kaichu dento

ledmitter_nli said:


> Is anyone brave enough to challenge this thread?
> 
> Here me out.
> 
> Now this is my personal testimony, and it fly's in the face of, "We worked the strobe up to around 18hz to 20hz and that problem was tackled." I don't see how a strobe frequency that is so fast that it helps alleviate disorientation for one won't do the same for the other. It either works and will effect everybody experiencing it. Or it doesn't. Frequencies don't play favors to one and not the other.


You think you're brave for doing what you always do? 

I value the testimony of someone whose done the research that the OP has done over a course of years with numerous participants far more than the input of any single user and your posting manner doesn't generally merit serious input, particularly when your idea of bravery amounts to poking people in the eye. 

Please adjust your posting manner and stop being a fly in the ointment.


----------



## jaycyu

kaichu dento said:


> You think you're brave for doing what you always do?



Nli is complimenting Grizzlyb's detailed findings, and that's it's difficult for anyone (no one did such extensive study) to contribute additional information without looking ignorant.

Edit: The light traveling from the LED straight to the suspect's eyes is much more intense than the light bouncing off his skin.


----------



## ledmitter_nli

kaichu dento said:


> You think you're brave for doing what you always do?
> 
> I value the testimony of someone whose done the research that the OP has done over a course of years with numerous participants far more than the input of any single user and your posting manner doesn't generally merit serious input, particularly when your idea of bravery amounts to poking people in the eye.
> 
> Please adjust your posting manner and stop being a fly in the ointment.



I've only posted my opinion. I'm glad you prefer to be obedient and unquestioning no matter its source.

Cliquish behavior is boring IMO.


----------



## bluemax_1

ledmitter_nli said:


> Is anyone brave enough to challenge this thread?
> 
> I mean seriously, from the 1st opening post: *"Having said that, the right strobe needs some clear specs. We found out, that with a slow or changing strobe, the opponent was able to (slowly) move their hands without being detected."*
> 
> Then: *"We worked the strobe up to around 18hz to 20hz and that problem was tackled. At 20Hz, the strobe was still extremely disorientating and the opponent could not move a finger without detection."
> 
> *Why would you increase the frequency to gain clarity? You are giving the opponent clarity as well. If it's no longer disorienting for the officer, it won't be disorienting to the adversary. As an analogy, it's like pepper spray. It will effect both, just matters where and the intensity of where it's pointed at.
> 
> Hear me out.
> 
> I recently acquired the Eagletac TX25C2 and I wanted to test its strobe variations against several lights. 1st the Klarus XT11. I *thought* the Klarus was king of strobes until I experienced something from a different light. I wanted to test for myself because I'm really an avid fan of the Klarus with its dual switch system. The XT11 oscillates between 15.0Hz and 6Hz every two seconds. I've placed the light 7 meters away, shut the lights, and I was able to walk towards it without feeling much disorientation. Annoying yes, but confusing? No. I thought the Klarus was about as disorienting as strobes go. I've went along with this assessment for awhile-perhaps because I haven't experienced anything better. Then there's the Eagletac MX25L2 which has two strobe modes. Also FAIL. 1st mode is a steady 13.5Hz. Still too fast. Second mode alternates between 20hz and ***8.8Hz every two seconds. Same thing. FAIL. At 20Hz it's more like an annoying bright light with buzzy modulation. So 20Hz IMO fly's in the face of the OP's experience,* "We worked the strobe up to around 18hz to 20hz and that problem was tackled. At 20Hz, the strobe was still extremely disorientating and the opponent could not move a finger without detection."* I'm sorry but even at 20Hz I still had very good balance and perception of my surroundings. He expresses at 20Hz the opponent can't move a finger without detection, so to the opponent, the police officer *can move* without detection (disoriented)? This doesn't make sense. If it truly effects the opponent it would also effect the police officer. In other words, it doesn't effect either-or, so 20Hz doesn't work altogether. ***The 8.8Hz phase of the aforementioned alternating frequency was a bit more disorienting but a little too slow to confuse me.
> 
> Then there's the Eagletac TX25C2 which has some different numbers and this is where something INTERESTING is happening.
> 
> This TX25C2 like the MX25L2 also has two strobe modes. The second mode (which I want to eliminate upfront) alternates between 15.0Hz and 6.5Hz. That FAILS as well. But the 1st mode ..... *a steady 9.6Hz*. Whoah. I don't know what it is, if it's syncing with the peaks of my brainwaves visual cortex (or something), but walking towards a stroboscopic *9.6Hz* I LOSE MY SENSE OF BALANCE. It is TRULY disorienting. "Disorienting" in a manner where the word isn't *******ized as some cool tacticool cliché. It. Is. Disorienting.
> 
> Now this is my personal testimony, and it fly's in the face of, "We worked the strobe up to around 18hz to 20hz and that problem was tackled." I don't see how a strobe frequency that is so fast that it helps alleviate disorientation for one won't do the same for the other. It either works and will effect everybody experiencing it. Or it doesn't. Frequencies don't play favors to one and not the other.
> 
> I wanted to put this out there. If you have the TX25C2, test this out. Put it in tactical mode, turn on its mode 3, shut the lights and start walking towards it. If you have a bright stroboscopic simulator test it. It makes me wonder if Eagletac actually researched this out and didn't just choose an arbitrary frequency number for the sake of marketing.
> 
> The Klarus XT11's strobe lacks in comparison now, I have to admit. But its 2 button interface is still awesome.
> 
> (Much thanks to selfbuilt for his review tested frequency numbers.)


First off, there are 2 separate issues at play here:
1) if the strobe is more disorienting than a constant brightness
2) if there's a strobe rate that is too slow to easily detect movement with.

For #1, yes, I can confirm that a strobe can be more disorienting (or distracting) than a constant light.
For #2, consider a strobe frequency of 1Hz. The issue is not whether it's more or less disorienting for the subject or user, at 1 Hz, the subject can move a significant distance in the dark 1 second before the next flash of light.

Grizzlyb was discussing factor #2 in mentioning slower strobe rates. A strobe rate above a certain frequency reduces the ability for the subject to move undetected. It's not a matter of the faster rate being less disorienting to the user (and/or subject). At some point, the darkness between the flashes is long enough, that small movements are harder to detect.

Now that said though, I mentioned in a few of my posts that I had a similar experience to yours with a light that had a slower strobe rate than the more common rates used by numerous manufacturers like Fenix, Nitecore and 4/7's. That slower rate, as you experienced, very quickly resulted in negatively affecting my balance and a few seconds later began making me feel nauseous. 

This was the reason I asked Grizzlyb if his testing had shown any stronger reactions to specific strobe rates. His response was that different people occasionally showed stronger reactions to certain strobe rates, but it appears to be more of an individual thing.

I need to try more testing with a variable rate strobe to see if there's a strobe rate that appears to be universally more disorienting to the vast majority of subjects.


Max


----------



## kaichu dento

jaycyu said:


> Nli is complimenting Grizzlyb's detailed findings, and that's it's difficult for anyone (no one did such extensive study) to contribute additional information without looking ignorant.


If that were the case he could have easily posted in a manner more like his edit to the post I responded to. 
Read again the part that I quoted in direct comparison to what he handily edited it to after the fact.

His "Now this is my personal testimony, and it fly's in the face of, "We worked the strobe up to around 18hz to 20hz and that problem was tackled." " clearly presents his solo civilian opinion as more worthy of serious perusal than that of a professional team over a number of years.

Posters like the self professed snob should not be allowed to derail any thread, much less one of such great interest.



ledmitter_nli said:


> I've only posted my opinion. I'm glad you prefer to be obedient and unquestioning no matter its source.
> 
> Cliquish behavior is boring IMO.


Then quit the troll clique and refrain from your attempts to disguise it under the cloak of intellectual dialogue.


----------



## Grizzlyb

NLI,

You are completely misreading what I wrote. 
In low frequencies the opponent was able to move their hands/arms slowly, which was sometimes difficult to detect. We had no problems with clarity. 
Never did we state that the strobe was more or less effective in disorienting the opponent on that point. 
It was just possible to slowly move body parts a little on low strobe's, which was hard to detect. (probably due to the light out period or some sort of vision trick) To avoid that possible problem, we choose a higher strobe frequency, that was still having enough disorienting deffect. Sometimes you have to make choices to avoid stuff You don't want. 10Hz was fine, but had small side effects we did want to solve.
Nothing more nothing less. 

What Bluemax says is correct. 

Above 5 Hz some students gave back that they already felt some effects of disorientation/irritation. 
More students told us that they started to get disoriented at levels around 10Hz. 
Most students kept having problems till around 25Hz, and above that frequency the irritating effects started to get less for most students. 
The officers that where working with the light had no problems with disorientation, only the opponents. (opponents are the ones on the receiving end). 
Your own observations probably fall into the main group around 10Hz. 
We do this training in groups of 3. (up to 24 students in 1 class) 
Two officers arresting the opponent using tactical Lights (the groups rotated each time to be officer or opponent) 

You are 100% wrong about that "what goes for one goes for everyone". 
That is probably your own opinion, but absolutely wrong as a fact.
Studies on photosensitive epilepsy show, that for most patients the risk zone seems to be in the 15Hz to 20Hz. 
But there are cases of lower frequencies (starting from 3Hz) and even some seldom cases in the 50Hz to 70Hz range.
Even the type of brain you have seem to have something to do with it.
Orderly brains are more effected then disorderly brains. 
No joke, but luckily disorderly brains are (by far) the most common.

Our study and the results where streight forward. 
Your individual experiences can always be different. Nothing wrong about that. 

It is obviously not easy, to translate real world findings on to paper. Sorry for that.


----------



## ledmitter_nli

kaichu dento said:


> If that were the case he could have easily posted in a manner more like his edit to the post I responded to.
> Read again the part that I quoted in direct comparison to what he handily edited it to after the fact.
> 
> His "Now this is my personal testimony, and it fly's in the face of, "We worked the strobe up to around 18hz to 20hz and that problem was tackled." " clearly presents his solo civilian opinion as more worthy of serious perusal than that of a professional team over a number of years.
> 
> Posters like the self professed snob should not be allowed to derail any thread, much less one of such great interest.
> 
> Then quit the troll clique and refrain from your attempts to disguise it under the cloak of intellectual dialogue.



My posts get traffic. Walk it off.


----------



## ledmitter_nli

Grizz,

You mention *"At 20Hz, the strobe was still extremely disorientating and the opponent could not move a finger without detection."*

OK you have no problems with clarity. You can see fine movements meaning your officers are not disoriented strobing the advasary with 20hz.

Alright, so as to the above: Exactly where does "extremely disorienting" apply then? For who? Any why does it effect one and not the other?


----------



## Grizzlyb

ledmitter_nli said:


> Exactly where does "extremely disorienting" apply then? For who? Any why does it effect one and not the other?



Sorry NLI, 
Any other can understand what was written. You seem to read everything different then was intended. 
Maybe it is the way it was written, maybe it is the way you read. 
You stated things that are 100% wrong. Try to study things more, before you throw it in this thread. 
It is not about opinions, or personal likes or dislikes.
When al that was written is not enough for you, then try to find out the meaning of the word "disorienting" yourself.
Why it disorient one more than the other is a medical study, done by people that studied for it. 
Google on photosensitive epilepsy, (PSE) and stimuli triggers or counter medication with sodium valproate, flicker vertigo (Bucha effect), 
Then research on the ubiquitous presence of colorful displays and materials, (allas,very little is known about the relationship between color-combinations (chromaticity) and photosensitivity) Read the study of researchers led by Joydeep Bhattacharya at Goldsmiths, University of London on this subject.
And also read:

Binnie, C. D., Darby, C. E., De Korte, R. A., Veldhuizen, R., & Wilkins, A.J. (1980). EEG Sensitivity to Television: Effects of Ambient Lighting. _Electroencephalography and Clinical Neurophysiology, 50_, 329-331.
Binnie, C. D., Estevez, O., Kasteleijn-Nolst Trenite, D. G. A., & Peters, A. (1984). Colour and Photosensitive Epilepsy, _Electroencephalography and Clinical Neurophysiology, 58_, 387-391.
Harding, G. (1994). Photosensitivity: a vestigial echo? The first Grey Walter Lecture. _International Journal of Psychophysiology, 16_, 273-279.
Leijten, F. S., Dekker, E., Spekreijse, H., Kasteleijn-Nolst Trenite, D. G., & Van Emde Boas, W. (1998). Light Diffusion in Photosensitive Epilepsy. _Electroencephalography and Clinical Neurophysiology, 106_, 387-391.
Plaster, G. A., Lodge, K. J., & Mulvaney, D. E. (1979). Effect of Distance of Photostimulation on a Photosensitive Epileptic Subject, _Psychological Reports, 45_, 271-274.
Takahashi, T. (1989). Techniques of Intermittent Photic Stimulation and Paroxysmal Responses. _American Journal of EEG Technology, 29_, 205-218.
Wilkins, A. J., Darby, C. E., Binnie, C. D., Steransson, S. B., Jeavons, P. M., & Harding, G. F. A. (1979). Television Epilepsy - The Roll of Pattern. _Electroencephalography and Clinical Neurophysiology, 47_, 163-171.
When You done that, and still don't know why it happens for one and not for another, come back and ask your question. 

and ps.
Please don't quote me complete every time, it makes this thread unreadable.


----------



## ledmitter_nli

I'm just trying to understand why 20Hz can be extremely disorienting to an adversary but have limited effect on officers. To me 20Hz is hardly disorienting. It doesn't induce that trance like state with a slower 9.6Hz strobe.

I'm not trying to pick a fight. I'm police work's greatest fan. Thank you so much. I just disagree with the Hz figures. Could there be a better way?

Thanks for your time. :thumbsup:


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## bluemax_1

ledmitter_nli said:


> You mention *"At 20Hz, the strobe was still extremely disorientating and the opponent could not move a finger without detection."*
> 
> OK you have no problems with clarity. You can see fine movements meaning your officers are not disoriented strobing the advasary with 20hz.
> 
> Alright, so as to the above: Exactly where does "extremely disorienting" apply then? For who? Any why does it effect one and not the other?


The disorientation is targeted at the subject and the effects are greatly enhanced/exacerbated by the intensity of the strobing light. This is one of the reasons for using a light with a highly focused hotspot; it maximizes the intensity the subject encounters.

The effect of the reflection or luminous splashback is significantly less. What the user/operator experiences as far as lumens and more importantly, lux/candela is merely a fraction of the intensity that the subject is experiencing.

Yes, if a particular strobe rate is used that happens to be a sensitive frequency for both operator and target/subject, both may experience disorientation, but the target being subjected to orders of magnitude in intensity will be experiencing significantly more debilitating effects.

That incidentally, is also a reason NOT to use a super bright floody light that has a strobe mode. With such a light, the intensity of the hotspot will be lower (which is what affects the target), but the much bigger hotspot and spill not only lights up much more around the target (potentially including your partner if working with one), it also increases the amount of luminous splashback increasing the potential effect on the operator which is not a desirable thing.

This became obvious when testing with a variable strobe light of the kind used in nightclubs. With no real focused hotspot, getting similar intensity meant a brighter light that lit up everything and made everything in the vicinity flash. While the target is really only affected by the intensity or candela of the light shining in their face (how many lumens are in the spill don't matter much in disorienting the target, but may unintentionally identify your partner), the effects on the operator ARE dependant on the amount of light reflected from the luminous splashback. 

I wouldn't use something like a ZL SC600 (or even worse, the SC6330) even if it HAD a tactical strobe, because it has such a low intensity hotspot and so much reflected light from its floody beam.

As has been pointed out already, the slower strobe rates might affect you and I significantly more than the faster 18-20hz rates, but that may be because we're personally more sensitive to them (and other people might not be more sensitive to a ~10hz rate vs a ~20hz rate).



Max


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## ledmitter_nli

Yes of course intensity with high lux matters. It overloads your senses. I'd argue the same intensity with the 9.6Hz strobe will disorient even better.

I think it's more than just you and I being particularly sensitive to a slower strobe. I think the setting was researched and applied with this specific intent - by Eagletac.

Perhaps they nailed it.

(or on to something)


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## Grizzlyb

Thanks max, 
I couldn't have explained it better.

NLI,
I'll put in some extra time 
There is so much research done on this subject and for so long period, that it sometimes confuses only more when we have to go into very technical data. Specially when the data is from medical researchers. 
For me, as an individual, 10Hz is very disorienting, 20Hz is still very disorienting. Why? the answer lies in medical studies. 
Sometimes the WHY is not important (to most readers) 

The reason why we use strobe is more important. 
In al the research we found, that the opponent on the receiving end was not only blinded, but also had a very hard time to estimate the distance to the officer. Also the opponent has a hard time making plans and structure his thought processes. 
And indeed there was a problem when the lights where to bright (wide). 
But that has already been explained enough.

Some manufacturers make oscilating strobes, some make strobes on the 3Hz or 10Hz rim and others between 15Hz and 20Hz. We may assume that those manufacturers all did some sort of research? (but what kind and how thorrow we don't know)

There are to much assumptions in this thread already , lets not make more.


----------



## ledmitter_nli

Maybe the manufactures researched maybe not. I know what effects me, and I'd rather go into battle with something that I know at least effects me 

I also know pepper spray effects me.

And probably bullets too.

They all actually work.


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## Grizzlyb

NLI, 

Again assumptions in your answer.

Don't trust to much on Your own experience, specially with pepper spray. You're in for some ugly surprices 
Because it works on You, won't mean it works on all. (its like with the strobe ) 

It (to make no mistakes I mean pepper spray) mostly not works in the same second you want it to work, many times the effects come in slowly after many seconds. 
When You spray a person keep your distance until you're absolutely sure he/she is 100% blinded and cant open the eyes anymore. 

And on about 20% to 25% of the people it does not work enough, or not at all. 
Keep in mind, that on this subject we have a lot of experience, with thousands of suspects and officers.

But, it is free to experiment with your own experience. That's how many people learn, by trial and error.

And that's where our job comes in handy. 
The combined knowledge of 45 professionals with over 1200 years of field experience, try to take away as much risks from the trial and error period as possible, for our officers and civilians alike.


----------



## Grizzlyb

tsask said:


> Grizzlyb
> the use of strobe is not an end all answer to all deranged indviduals or deliberately violent interpersonal encounters, yet it is a viable non lethal, "time buying" measure as in buying enough time to escape or take other actions.
> Thanks for your rational objective analysis of this topic.:wave:



Thanks tsask,
That it helps you guys is enough reward for us to have made the work.


----------



## sinnyc

Grizzlyb said:


> NLI,
> Even the type of brain you have seem to have something to do with it.
> Orderly brains are more effected then disorderly brains.



Then I've got nothing to worry about! :laughing::lolsign:


Sorry, I thought we needed a humor break and I couldn't help myself  

- Tim


----------



## Dave D

ledmitter_nli said:


> And probably bullets too.



That 's quite a revealing statement


----------



## Grizzlyb

sinnyc said:


> Then I've got nothing to worry about! :laughing::lolsign:
> Sorry, I thought we needed a humor break and I couldn't help myself
> - Tim



* * *Grizzlyb with big grinn* * *

Haha, I was waiting for that one. Thanks.
Here is the part of that tekst from the research. (note: not my research, but Professor Joydeep Bhattacharya, with thanks) 

_Altogether, this suggests that when subjected to potentially seizure-triggering stimuli, a healthy brain manages to maintain a nonlinear state with a high degree of disorder. 
By comparison, an epileptic brain represents a highly ordered state – which makes it vulnerable to the forcing stimulus. 
Evidently disorder, as specified earlier, can be a healthy sign!_


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## kaichu dento

ledmitter_nli said:


> My posts get traffic. Walk it off.


So do bar fights, but neither one of them are positive. 

Why don't you learn how to get along with others and stop thinking of your disruptions as something beneficial. 

Case in point made in to two following quotes. Just walk away and allow the thread to go back to its original intent of informative rather than argumentative discussion.



Grizzlyb said:


> Sorry NLI,
> Any other can understand what was written. You seem to read everything different then was intended.
> Maybe it is the way it was written, maybe it is the way you read.
> You stated things that are 100% wrong. Try to study things more, before you throw it in this thread.
> It is not about opinions, or personal likes or dislikes.





Grizzlyb said:


> NLI,...There are to much assumptions in this thread already , lets not make more.


Grizzly, sorry you've got this going in your thread, but this is his specialty and I hope he gets shut out before he destroys another thread.


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## Grizzlyb

Thanks kaichu dento,
Let's hope we are back, and stay back on track again. :thumbsup:


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## Kestrel

ledmitter_nli said:


> My posts get traffic. Walk it off.


Does quoting your post here count as such? :ironic:

Everyone, please stay on-topic and try to refrain from personal comments. Thank you,


----------



## ledmitter_nli

kaichu dento said:


> So do bar fights, but neither one of them are positive.
> 
> Why don't you learn how to get along with others and stop thinking of your disruptions as something beneficial.



Because putting someones claims under closer inspection tends to reveal inconsistencies and needs to be drawn out.

There's actually a scientific method available for all this madness. Anecdotal evidence from laymen doesn't cut it.

Hey. If 20Hz works for y'all, more power to ya. Good luck with that.


----------



## sinnyc

ledmitter_nli said:


> Because putting someones claims under closer inspection tends to reveal inconsistencies and needs to be drawn out.
> 
> There's actually a scientific method available for all this madness. Anecdotal evidence from laymen doesn't cut it.
> 
> Hey. If 20Hz works for y'all, more power to ya. Good luck with that.



The whole point of what Grizzlyb and everyone else has been saying to you is that his department has done extensive testing (100's and 100's of man hours) and used existing independent scientific research in their pursuit of this light. 

You, on the other hand, are saying that all of their conclusions are wrong or at least suspect. And you, a "layman" claim this because your own loosely tested, extremely limited, and (most importantly) *individual* experience is different. That, my friend, is the very definition of "anecdotal evidence". Good luck with that.


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## ledmitter_nli

Binnie, C. D., Darby, C. E., De Korte, R. A., Veldhuizen, R., & Wilkins, A.J. (1980). EEG Sensitivity to Television: Effects of Ambient Lighting. _Electroencephalography and Clinical Neurophysiology, 50_, 329-331.
Binnie, C. D., Estevez, O., Kasteleijn-Nolst Trenite, D. G. A., & Peters, A. (1984). Colour and Photosensitive Epilepsy, _Electroencephalography and Clinical Neurophysiology, 58_, 387-391.
Harding, G. (1994). Photosensitivity: a vestigial echo? The first Grey Walter Lecture. _International Journal of Psychophysiology, 16_, 273-279.
Leijten, F. S., Dekker, E., Spekreijse, H., Kasteleijn-Nolst Trenite, D. G., & Van Emde Boas, W. (1998). Light Diffusion in Photosensitive Epilepsy. _Electroencephalography and Clinical Neurophysiology, 106_, 387-391.
Plaster, G. A., Lodge, K. J., & Mulvaney, D. E. (1979). Effect of Distance of Photostimulation on a Photosensitive Epileptic Subject, _Psychological Reports, 45_, 271-274.
Takahashi, T. (1989). Techniques of Intermittent Photic Stimulation and Paroxysmal Responses. _American Journal of EEG Technology, 29_, 205-218.
Wilkins, A. J., Darby, C. E., Binnie, C. D., Steransson, S. B., Jeavons, P. M., & Harding, G. F. A. (1979). Television Epilepsy - The Roll of Pattern. _Electroencephalography and Clinical Neurophysiology, 47_, 163-171.
When You done that, and still don't know why it happens for one and not for another, come back and ask your question. 

^^^ Do any of these write-ups mention a specific flash frequency that can induce disorientation on the majority of people?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation


Correlation proves causation (_cum hoc ergo propter hoc_) – a faulty assumption that correlation between two variables implies that one causes the other. 
This fallacy is also known as cum hoc ergo propter hoc, Latin for "with this, therefore because of this".


----------



## ledmitter_nli

sinnyc said:


> The whole point of what Grizzlyb and everyone else has been saying to you is that his department has done extensive testing (100's and 100's of man hours) and used existing independent scientific research in their pursuit of this light.
> 
> You, on the other hand, are saying that all of their conclusions are wrong or at least suspect. And you, a "layman" claim this because your own loosely tested, extremely limited, and (most importantly) *individual* experience is different. That, my friend, is the very definition of "anecdotal evidence". Good luck with that.



I can argue Eagletac *has* done the research already, I'm just carrying the flag forward.

Anyone who can afford to test a TX25C2 for the heck of it or simulate a bright 9.6Hz strobe might wish to do so and draw their own conclusions. I'm just putting this out there as a counter argument.
*
"...used existing independent scientific research in their pursuit of this light."*

^^^ See post #158 directly above.


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## scottyhazzard

Grizzlyb, would it be possible to get a copy of any of your data? Even if I have to fumble through a google translate it would be a good start. I need something solid to present to get permission to do a trial at my hospital. If there are fees involved please send me a pm. One of our nurses is out for at least 3 months after being injured by a psychiatric patient during a take down of a patient. Thanks for all the information so far, looking forward to more.


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## Grizzlyb

Sorry for the other readers in this thread. You all had good info back and we learned a lot new insides. 
I tried to answer all Your questions to my best knowledge. 
We did a long term research and never claimed anything. 
We just wrote down what we did and found. 
Apparently not all can read it the way we intended it to be. 

NLI, 
I don't think you misunderstand what I write on purpose. 
Maybe You honestly think that everyone is wrong and You are the only one that sees the truth in all. 
If You think that You are the Professional that needs to uncover the truth and that we are just some Laymen with anecdotal evidence, so be it. 
I can tell You that there are no conspiracy and no secret complots here that have to be drawn out. 

Any inconsistencies You think You have to find, are probably due to translation or just misreading on Your side. 
I really did my best to translate it in words You could understand. 
Being a teacher,I am sorry I failed in that. 

I won't react on NLI's claims and statements anymore. 
I hope that others will do the same and not react on NLI anymore, otherwise he will effectively kill this thread. 

Scottyhazzard,
Lets talk on this by pm.


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## ledmitter_nli

If I'm going to reequip a department with new lights I'd wish to field test a few things beforehand, so our personnel could see for ourselves.

It's only prudent to ask questions.

Grizz it was an interesting discussion none the less.


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## scottyhazzard

Grizz, that's it! Just what I have been looking for. That is a huge boost forward for my project. I can't thank you enough.


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## Grizzlyb

Glad to be of help Scotty.


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## Slazmo

Just noticed that the Nitecore EA4 has a constantly fluctuating defense strobe function - a "WHOLE" lot more disorientating / vomit inducing than the strobe in the LL MT7!!!!


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## Grizzlyb

Hi Slazmo,

Personally, I find the EA4 a real nice light. Small but sturdy fellow fits smoothly in my hand. 
The strobe indeed is a "puker" to me too, variable somewhere between the 9Hz and 19Hz I think. 
The nice thing with the EA4 is, that it never becomes to slow (below about 9/10Hz) or to fast (above 25Hz). 
Effects every brain just enough to keep from concentrating/focusing. 

Fast changing frequencies possibly have some advantages on a medical level to. 
The frequency where a photosensitive (epileptic) person can be triggered is different for every other individual. (many between the range of 10 and 20Hz, but some on a specific frequency)

It takes a reasonable long time for susceptible people to get triggered (even up to 90 seconds), so when the strobe is not to long on 1 frequency, that could help prefent epileptic seizures. 
There still is a lot to learn on that subject.

To keep it on the highest *tactical* level, it is best to not let it drop to slow.
We prefer a strobe in 1 frequency, but as long as it is in the right range, it will work perfectly

We haven't done it yet, but talking about it and reading all your experiences, 
I think we will also try some higher variable strobes, between 15Hz and 23Hz. Scaling up and down every 3 seconds. Maybe that still has all the pro's and even less con's. 
From a tactical point of view, what we have now, works 100%, but....we are very keen on prefenting even the smallest chance of medical problems.


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## nativecajun

Very informative


----------



## Tachion

Hi Grizzly

Thanks for a great writeup and an interesting thread. 

I'm studying to become a LEO in Sweden and I thought I'd give the TDL 20 a try. There are two holsters for it. One open loop and one closed loop. Which one do you recommend? I want to keep the back of my belt free from tools. The front is pretty much taken with a baton, pepper-spray, handcuffs and gloves. So I'm thinking I'll have to try to squeeze the flashlight in on the left side of the belt. (My gun-holster is on the right side)


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## Grizzlyb

Hi Tachion.

We have the best results with the ESP model that is open on the front and closed on the back. 
This model:





For safety reasons we have a small spiral cord between the light and holster. 
This way we can let go of the light when we need handcuffs.





We also squeeze the light between the stuff on the left side of our belts. 
Some day I'll take a picture for You to show how we do it. (remember me on PM when I forget  )

This model is to wide on the belt.







Be adviced, that the closed loop model (picture below) is not made for 1 handed quick draw operations. 
AND it is wrong side up.







Good luck with the study mate,

Stay safe.

Hi Kestrel,
Sorry if I did something wrong?
I cropped them a little to get the text off?
They are on my own smugmug account.


----------



## Tachion

I meant the loop on the back just like the top three pictures. I haven't seen the bottom one before, but I'd like to try the quick draw option so I'll skip that one. I will go for the top one with a closed back loop then, space on the belt is to precious to waste. 

That spiral cord sounds like a really good idea. Especially when you use the light as a distraction before grabbing someone (no time to put away the flashlight).


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## Grizzlyb

Tachion said:


> Especially when you use the light as a distraction before grabbing someone (no time to put away the flashlight).



Yep, You got the right idea


----------



## Nachtwacht

Hello Grizzlyb,

Thank you for sharing your test results. Very interesting information.

Two questions:

1) I took a look at the specs of the Eden tdl light and noticed that the user interface activates the momentary strobe by pressing the switch half-way. A full press seems to activate constant-on strobe. Is this correct? If so, have you encountered problems with students activating constant-on strobe by 'accident', on the firing range or while conducting scenarios? 

2) Have you conducted similar tests with dedicated weapon lights, using 18-20 hertz strobe? If so, what is your preferred user interface? (e.g. Surefire X300, Insight Technology WX150 / Procyon, Streamlight TLR, Blackhawk Xiphos,...)

Thanks again,

Greetings,

Nachtwacht


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## Grizzlyb

Nachtwacht said:


> Hello Grizzlyb,
> 
> Two questions:
> 
> 1) I took a look at the specs of the Eden tdl light and noticed that the user interface activates the momentary strobe by pressing the switch half-way. A full press seems to activate constant-on strobe. Is this correct? If so, have you encountered problems with students activating constant-on strobe by 'accident', on the firing range or while conducting scenarios?
> 2) Have you conducted similar tests with dedicated weapon lights, using 18-20 hertz strobe? If so, what is your preferred user interface?
> 
> Thanks again,
> Greetings,
> Nachtwacht



Hi Nachtwacht,

About 1mm pressing is momentary on, soundless and real smooth. Constant on by pressing the full length about 4mm to 5mm and You notice a mecanical switch. No chance of accidents here. 
It is always possible though, that under very high levels of stress the switch is pushed all the way down, but once you are used to the light, very unlikely.

If you have read the thread you should know that this is not meant to be a weapon light. 
It is build for tactical advantage in hand to hand combat. 

But, It CAN ofcoarse be used together with a handgun, but not as a mounted light. 
We did work with it on the shooting range many times, and found that strobes on this higher frequency do not hinder the shooter, but it still greatly hinders the one on the receiving end.

There are many other good lights that are built for that weapon mounting perpose. We didn't go in that direction, many specialist done that already. It was not our field of research.

There can only be 1 user interface for a light designed for the perpose of the TDL20. That is why the TDL20 has this user interface.
Sorry, I can't advice you on a user interface for weapon mounted lights.


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## AnAppleSnail

It has been interesting to read this thread. Perceptually speaking, there are some things to consider.



"What is strobe?"
Purely speaking, I would call a strobe light then dark. So the parameters of interest are light period length, dark period length. This is often presented only as the cycles per second, which skips the ratio there. I believe (But do NOT know) that this ratio is important. If the dark periods are too long, unobserved actions can happen. If they are too short, the 'strobe' is too similar to a normal flashlight. What is optimum to reduce a subject's vision in many lighting conditions, while allowing an officer to see? I do not know, and it would be difficult to study this. I have played with some toy-type smart phone programs that allow an (uncalibrated) strobe of varying duration on/off. The most disorienting-to-me effects are around half light cycles at near 10-20 Hz. But I can't clock that strobe, and I have not tested it on as many others as you have. With LED (As opposed to arc-lamp strobe) the electronics can create almost any ratio of bright to dark desired.


"Why can an officer see a strobed subject easily?" When you watch a movie in a theater, it was (Until recently) shown at about 24 FPS. Standing in front of that projector and trying to see even a bright scene behind the light would be difficult - The things you want to see are overwhelemed 24 times per second.

"What does a strobe do?"
I wouldn't expect a strobe to stun most people, but your experiences seem to indicate an important advantage that can be acted on.

Scotty, I hope that your nurse recovers quickly, and that you guys find a way forwards to keep everyone safe.


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## selfbuilt

Interesting thread. I'm glad to see the issues around "tactical" strobe frequencies are getting a full airing here. It certainly seems like you and your compatriots have done a lot of work on this, Grizzlyb. 



AnAppleSnail said:


> Purely speaking, I would call a strobe light then dark. So the parameters of interest are light period length, dark period length. This is often presented only as the cycles per second, which skips the ratio there. I believe (But do NOT know) that this ratio is important. If the dark periods are too long, unobserved actions can happen. If they are too short, the 'strobe' is too similar to a normal flashlight. What is optimum to reduce a subject's vision in many lighting conditions, while allowing an officer to see? I do not know, and it would be difficult to study this.


I have exactly the same thought. Strobe pulse duration (i.e., how long the light is "on" per pulse) is indeed another variable that may change, indepedendent of strobe frequency. In any study comparing the effects of different strobe frequencies, it would be important to ensure that strobe pulse duration remained constant (otherwise you have a potential confound).

I have measured the strobe characteristics on a large number lights over the years. Until recently, most manufacturers opted for a single constant frequency (usually somewhere in the 10-15 Hz range), and a single constant pulse duration (typically in the ~40-60% "On" range per pulse). However, I have come across strobes in that frequency range that have unusually long or short "on" pulses (i.e., I've seen ones that are "on" <10% of the pulse time, or >90%). The visual appearance of these is quite different than the typical ~50% "on" pulses - even for lights that are all using the same frequency. This is just an empirical observation that they appear different - I don't how that affects functional use, but it stands to reason it could be important (as AnAppleSnail points out above).

Note that the above is a more general issue about regular strobes (i.e., I'm not even thinking about the multiple-frequency strobes). Although I have of course seen many of those in the last couple of years - I typically consider these oscillating strobes (i.e., switching between two - or more - specific frequencies). These are often done as one frequency for a defined time, followed by the other, in repeating fashion (e.g. 2 secs of one freq, then the other, in an alternating fashion). But I've also seen literal alternation between each pulse (i.e., freq1 flash, freq2 flash, freq1 flash, etc), or a random alternation between two - or more - frequencies.

More recently, I have been seeing some truly variable strobe pulse frequencies. Nitecore in particular has been experimenting with a lot of different kinds. Note that most (but not all) of these Nitecore strobes are not only variable-frequency but ALSO variable-pulse-duration. Again, in some cases it seems truly variable (on one or both measures), and on others I can detect specific multiple reoccuring pulse widths or frequencies (depends on the model).

A third variable that I haven't seen mentioned here that may also affect relative perception is strobe pulse intensity (i.e. output level). Initially, almost all strobes I measured were full 100% max output. But in some cases, I've seen lower output, usually at a constant level (e.g.,a ~30% output strobe mode, likely to conserve battery life). In most of these lower output strobe cases, the frequencies are also lower (i.e., they are probably meant for emergency signalling purposes, not disorientation). But I've also noticed variable-intensities on some high-frequency strobe lights, often in combination with variable-frequency and/or variable pulse-duration (i.e., some of these Nitecores referenced above).

I'm not trying to depress anybody with level of complexity presented above  - just pointing out there are two other pulse characteristics you need to consider, along with frequency. Different manufacturers have taken - and continue to take - various approaches at modulating all three. My general take-home message would be that in any study of one variable, it would be important to ensure the other variables remain constant (i.e., measure the pulse characteristics to ensure that you can ascribe the effect to a single variable change).


----------



## Grizzlyb

Thanks Selfbuilt, 

Much appreciated contribution to the thread. 
You have a lot of experience in testing strobes (probably more the we do :thumbsup and echo some of my thoughts on the subject. There are lots of variables to take in account. 
Strobe has probably more uses than I can come up with, but our main use was disorientation. 

On that part alone there are already a lot of angles to think about. 
For starters, how is it effecting the opponent, on what level, how long, why is one person more effected then the other and of coarse why are people effected at all. (there is nowadays enough medical research to know why it is effecting us the way it does.) Not that much effect for most, but enough to get the desired advantage. 

When that is more or less sorted out, you have to look at IF, WHEN and HOW it is effecting the user. 
The wanted result for us was the lowest possible effect for the user and of coarse the highest possible effect to the opponent, without doing any form of real physical harm. 

At lower frequencies, (50/50 on/off at 5 to 10 Hz) the strobe was effective on the disorienting part for the opponent, but there was overall to much unwanted "out" time, and the users where also effected enough to get lower scores on the shooting range. Telling us that they indeed had a little trouble with focusing. 
The 50/50 strobe from 18Hz to 23Hz had considerable less effect on the users and still the disorienting effect we looked for, on the opponent. 
We haven't made any changes on the 50/50 on/off time. But it is an interesting concept we have not thought about fiddling with. 
As long as the "off" time is not to long. . . .? 
With enough "out/dark" time, the opponent could make small movements without detection, and also, when looking into the strobe for a few seconds, when there is a little back light, and enough "out"/dark time, you can slowly start to see the silhouette of the user. 
There for we had to look for much "on" time and little "off" time. (as long as the disorienting is still good enough.) 

The intensity is indeed the third variable. 
As far as we know now, when the strobe is working in an effective frequency, the intensity is enough as long as the lux level of a steady beam on that distance (4th variable  ) is enough to blind a person completely from his surroundings. The higher the better, as long as the user is not effected (and no back light by rebounce) and there is no physical harm to the opponent.


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## Grizzlyb

double post


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## bluemax_1

Hmmm... good points about pulse duration. Now it makes me wonder about strobes in the 10Hz range (+/- 0.5Hz). Although this is the threshold where Grizzlyb's testing indicates that slower than this might provide too much dark/off time allowing the subject to make small movements undetected, what about a 10Hz strobe where the On pulse accounts for 80% of the cycle as opposed to 50/50? Would that provide the greater disorientation that some have noted at these slower rates, while still minimizing the dark/off time eliminating the possibility of undetected movements?

I'm definitely curious to see the newer Nitecore constantly variable strobe implementation as documented in Selfbuilt's EA4/EA8 reviews. As Grizzlyb noted, 2 offset strobes with very slight frequency variances can be VERY disorienting. I experimented with this using the P25 and M22 simultaneously. The effective strobe rate constantly changing as the 2 lights go in and out of sync makes for a very disorienting effect. I wonder if the Nitecore implementation can simulate this with a single LED/light?


Max


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## Bullzeyebill

I have removed some obviously trolling posts and responses to them.

Bill


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## Bullzeyebill

Ledmitter_nli, I've removed several of your obviously trolling posts. You are, in effect, flaming the OP, and contributing little to this thread. Please read CPF Rule 4. When you are posting a rebuttal to a post, please be respectful. Attack the post, not the poster. 

Bill


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## holylight

Good.


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## Grizzlyb

I haven't seen any reactions in this thread after my last posting, so I don't know what went wrong. 
Regrettably Bullzeyebill was forced to take action, for witch I am grateful. 

Lets hope it was the last time this action was needed. 
Otherwise it will be OK with me, to close this thread. 
So everyone can still read the information and no one can misuse the thread for their own purposes. 

My apologies to Bullzeyebill, that I was not able to keep this from happening. 

high regards 
Grizz.


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## selfbuilt

Grizzlyb said:


> We haven't made any changes on the 50/50 on/off time. But it is an interesting concept we have not thought about fiddling with.
> As long as the "off" time is not to long. . . .? With enough "out/dark" time, the opponent could make small movements without detection, and also, when looking into the strobe for a few seconds, when there is a little back light, and enough "out"/dark time, you can slowly start to see the silhouette of the user.
> There for we had to look for much "on" time and little "off" time. (as long as the disorienting is still good enough.)





bluemax_1 said:


> Hmmm... good points about pulse duration. Now it makes me wonder about strobes in the 10Hz range (+/- 0.5Hz). Although this is the threshold where Grizzlyb's testing indicates that slower than this might provide too much dark/off time allowing the subject to make small movements undetected, what about a 10Hz strobe where the On pulse accounts for 80% of the cycle as opposed to 50/50? Would that provide the greater disorientation that some have noted at these slower rates, while still minimizing the dark/off time eliminating the possibility of undetected movements?


Yes, the question of the subjective effect of a prolonged "on" pulse width is interesting.

The concept occurred to me because of how I subjectively "benchmark" my lights in handling before I measure their characteristics. This is a natural thing we all do, and quite helpful as a QC check during testing (i.e., if a light subjectively seems to be ~600 lumens to me, but my lightbox were to say 300 or 1200, I know something isn't right somewhere). 

It's the same with strobe. Because I've tested hundreds of lights, before I even set up the oscilloscope I can easily tell if the light is going to be closer to ~10Hz, ~15Hz, or ~20Hz strobe. But there have been cases where I was "fooled" in my initial subjective impression that a given light would be at the higher end of that frequency range, when it fact it was the low end. Looking at the oscilloscope traces, this is when I noticed some lights were not using the 50:50 on/off pulse width. 

Although I have limited data on this (i.e., most lights are pretty close to 50:50), it seems that lights with an extended "on" pulse width initially appear to me to be at a higher frequency then they really are. I haven't investigated this in any systematic way, but it's reasonable to think that pulse-width certainly could be a significant, for the reasons speculated above.

As a civilian however, I don't personally intend to start cataloguing the effects of "tactical" strobe - I'll leave that to you guys.  Personally, I'll stick with my slow 0.5-1 Hz signaling strobes any day. :wave:


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## Grizzlyb

selfbuilt said:


> But there have been cases where I was "fooled" in my initial subjective impression that a given light would be at the higher end of that frequency range, when it fact it was the low end. Looking at the oscilloscope traces, this is when I noticed some lights were not using the 50:50 on/off pulse width. Although I have limited data on this (i.e., most lights are pretty close to 50:50), it seems that lights with an extended "on" pulse width initially appear to me to be at a higher frequency then they really are. I haven't investigated this in any systematic way, but it's reasonable to think that pulse-width certainly could be a significant, for the reasons speculated above.



This seems very logical and thus likely to me. 
We really want to do some more research on pulse-width variations.
Sad part is, we heard this week, that we had to cut back on funds and research time.

Politics say they have enough data for the moment, to go on with tactical lights. (To be honest, we do have enough data for the original purpose )
We will continue with all sorts of trainings in every situation we can think of, and keep gathering data on how people/animals react on Tactical Lights with strobes.


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## RI Chevy

Very interesting thread. Thank you for all the work and research that you and your team have done to help out brother and sister officers! As a retired LEO (24 yrs) and trainer I find this topic very interesting. 

Grizzlyb...Have you experienced any ill effects from the tactical lights on you personally while using the lights on the perps? I guess I mean residual effects on the users of these lights. Have any LEO's reported to you from suffering any ill effects while they view the light while shining the light on the perps? Sorry. I had trouble wording the question so it is understandable. 

Just curious, but is there a general pulse width that is a "standard" that come on stock lights? A baseline? I am just trying to get an idea on what your studies are in visual terms of what 20hz is.


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## Grizzlyb

Hi RI Chevy,

I have no ill effects (residual) what so ever. 
I do find it very difficult to focus and get a little nausea while looking in a strobe (with 2 strobes, each on a side, it is worse), but that is the purpose of the strobe. 
None of the students or LEO's on duty reported any ill (residual) effects, other than during the strobe itself. 
Apart from some stumbling and falling drunks that thru up. 
With a "fast" strobe like this, the one using the Tactical Light has very little effects at all. Shooting results stay the same. It is almost like shining with a normal steady beam.

Probably the best knowledge base of strobe frequencies is made by Selfbuild. 
There is no real general "baseline". 
Manufacturers have their own preferences, but most are somewhere between 8Hz and 18Hz. 
Some fixed in 1 frequency, some variable. 
20Hz is for the eye a very fast flickering. When you are fast, you tap your finger about 6 times a second on the table. 
Your eye has already trouble to count that fast. 
So 20Hz is 20 times on and of in 1 second. It is probably impossible to really count that fast (for me it is) 
But when you work with strobes a lot, you can more or less "feel" how fast a strobe is (as long as it is below 25Hz) 
Selfbuild has good observations on that subject. He can give a accurate guess what speed the strobe is.


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## selfbuilt

RI Chevy said:


> Just curious, but is there a general pulse width that is a "standard" that come on stock lights? A baseline? I am just trying to get an idea on what your studies are in visual terms of what 20hz is.


I haven't quantified it, but based on my testing experience, most manufacturers seem to be aiming for an approximate 50:50 pulse width most of the time (at least on their constant frequency strobes). That said, it is is rarely exactly that given circuit tolerances in manufacture (hence the common ~40-60% estimate range I gave, for any given sample). Of course, any individual light is completely consistent in both its pulse width and pulse frequency, within a certain margin of error to the manufacturer's overall model baseline.

Presumably manufacturers have some reason when they choose to signficantly alter the typical pulse width ratio, but none have ever brought it up with me. And given the huge range of oscillating and/or variable strobes I'm starting to see (sometimes within different models of the same series), I suspect there is often a lot more "theoretical" rationales that go into these decisions than practical, evidence-based empirical ones.


----------



## Grizzlyb

RI Chevy said:


> Just curious, but is there a general pulse *width* that is a "standard"



Oeps, sorry I didn't see You where asking the width and not the frequency.
Selfbuilt helpt me there with the answer


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## RI Chevy

Thank you for the responses! :thumbsup:


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## fletch31

Regarding effective frequency for strobes, back around 2007, I recall Ken J. Good who helped develop the Blackhawk Gladius flashlight (his name is one of a few on the patent) saying they designed the strobe for that light to be below the 15Hz-20Hz range purposefully to avoid triggering epileptic seizures in the small percentage of the population who are susceptible to them. I have a memory of the exact strobe frequency of the Gladius being 12.8Hz but many of Ken's posts online have been deleted since. Some recent searches have turned up around old posts from others who inquired of Blackhawk and were told "It is around 12Hz but the exact freq is proprietary" and another was told it was around 12.5Hz but nothing from the horses mouth directly. Still 12.8Hz is burned in my memory as I thought the strobe on those lights was fantastically disorienting and I made it my goal back then to learn as much about them as possible and modded many of them with first Seoul P4 and later XPG LEDS for LEO friends. I just can't find a post by him verifying that frequency. Perhaps he disclosed it or someone tested it and reported it online. I can't remember which. Maybe I am misremembering all together. I am sure someone could find out definitively with an oscilloscope but I don't have one.


My understanding is the company that was contracted to manufacture the Gladius flashlight for Blackhawk (Insight?) started producing the Typhoon H2X under the Insight brand due to exploitation of a hole in their contract with Blackhawk or perhaps by outright violation. This was the internet scuttlebutt at the time. This understandably led to fallout between the two companies and the discontinuation of the Gladius. The Blackhawk Gladius and Insight Typhoon H2X (exact same light functionally and design wise) were only 80 lumens when they first came out using a Luxeon III LED but the strobes were still effective in low light. The Typhoon was upgraded to a Seoul P4 for 120 lumens from the factory (called the Insight Typhoon H2X2) using the same driver and the Gladius was upgraded for a short time at the factory to a P4 (called the Gladius Maximus). Also mail-in retrofitting for a Seoul P4 was offered for the Gladius by Strategos for some time. All of those lights were designed to receive 6 volts, were driven at 1 amp max, and are kind of aged out in stock form with today's more powerful LEDs and their amperage requirements though they still work pretty well modified with an XPG or XPG2 LED. I use rechargeable CR123s(x2) in them without any problems both 3.0v and the standard 3.7v. I loved the interface and design of these lights and just want MORE POWAH! haha. I also would like to use a single high capacity 18650 battery.

Ken said on another forum:
" strobing light does 3 important things to a person in a confrontational situation: 
1. It degrades a person's depth perception
2. It degrades a person's peripheral vision
3. It can significantly degrade a person's ability to maintain their balance"

None of these effects are experienced by the user holding the light.

All of these qualities give a good tactical advantage that can be exploited when seconds count and are outside the scope of trying to throw someone into an incapacitating photosensitive seizure which I think many mall ninjas hope for when obtaining a strobing light.

I bring Ken up because I remember him as knowledgeable and authoritative voice during the Gladius era. H often said he was not an engineer but I believe he was a well read and researched guy with hands on experience (former SO I believe) regarding the effectiveness of strobes and low light combat and said the frequency decided upon for the Gladius was determined to be most effective backed up by a lot of research. 

GrizzlyB pointed out that at lower than 18Hz-20Hz there are effective strobe frequencies for disorientation but the slower freqs made it possible for slow movement by a perp to not be detected by the user. I did not observe that with the Gladius family of lights with their frequency around 12Hz but what WAS observed was that the person being strobed could not detect MY movement in regards to me getting closer or further away from him. This would be the degrading effects on depth perception and peripheral vision mentioned previously. Mine were modded with Seoul P4 and later XPG LEDs. This is just anecdotal but I was able to duplicate this many times and touch guys on the shoulder or give them a playful punch to the belly without them perceiving that I was closer starting at 15 feet moving in low light conditions with my modded lights. 

I have been following this thread with great interest and recently found this study abstract from 2010 published in Neuroscience magazine titled "Hazardous Nature of High-Temporal-Frequency-Strobe Light Stimulation: Neural Mechanisms revealed by Magnetoencephalography" online that says the effective harmonic frequency to induce effect on the brain through optical perception is around *6.5Hz*. Here is a link
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20060038

If this scientific study published in Neuroscience is correct then wouldn't it mean that strobe frequencies of 6.5Hz, 13Hz, and 19.5Hz would be most effective for disorientation, having the greatest induced effect on the brain being whole multipliers of 1, 2, and 3 respectively?(1st,2nd, and 3rd order harmonics) I would think 6.5Hz would give a pronounced stutter effect that would make it difficult to detect the strobed person's movement (not useful). It also would indeed mean that claims of the frequency of around 12hz being most the effective on the Gladius type lights by Ken and GrizzlyB's observational studies that the effective strobe freq lying between 18Hz and 20Hz is most effective are both correct.

Thrunite now markets a light that uses a near identical one handed mode changing interface as the Gladius/Typhoon lights called the Scorpion with an XML LED. It runs off of a single rechargable 18650(my preference) or two CR123As. The company that makes those lights for Thrunite (Yineng China Holdings Group) just started offering it under their own Supbeam brand with an updated XML2 LED driven at 3 amps for $97 air shipped if you inquire through email on their website supbeam.com. (Just the XML U3 is listed on the site now). I loved this type of interface but there is some discrepancy in regards to the strobe for the Scorpion type lights as they have advertised a strobe frequency of 10hz which would be a less effective frequency based on the above theory. Selfbuilt's review of the Thrunite Scorpion said that the strobe on the Scorpion measured at 13.1Hz on the oscilloscope which would mean that it is right where it would need to be. I don't own this light. Anyone want to chime in on the efficacy of it's strobe? The greater 945 lumens of an XML2 LED driven at 3 amps and a nice Panasonic 18650 3500mA battery that would help overcome more ambient light when strobing if it is an effective frequency, and 1.5 hours on high runtime is really appealing. I really would like some feedback on this strobe if anyone has this light.


***EDIT*** I see per Selfbuilt's testing the Scorpion V1 was 13.1Hz for its strobe freq but the current V2 model is 10Hz per Selfbuilt's updated review of the V2. 

I just purchased an ArmyTek Predator XPG2 LED light driven at 2.1 amps that has a programmable strobe frequency ability. It is factory programmed at 15Hz but you can change it to any frequency from 1Hz to 50Hz for your custom modes and make it come on first if you like. The factory strobe setting at 15Hz is annoying but its more the brightness that is bothering me than the frequency I think. The hotspot is just so intense on this light as it throws up to 400 meters. I just wish there was a way to know definitively what I can program it to as it sweeps through the frequencies without an oscilloscope.

I am interested in the Eden light GrizzlyB mentioned with its set frequency that seems to be in line with this previously mentioned study's harmonic frequency. Is there a distributor for the US without having to pay for Euro conversion and be penalized for Euro economy scale vs US dollars? 


Ken J. Good is a member here on the forums and is advising Polarion now I believe. I sent him a message to see if he is inclined to weigh in on this conversation as he has posted on CPF as recently as 4.9.2013.

Thanks
Fletch31


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## Chevy-SS

Wow, this has become one of the most interesting threads I have ever seen on this forum! Kudos to the many well-informed contributors. :thumbsup:


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## selfbuilt

fletch31 said:


> I have been following this thread with great interest and recently found this study abstract from 2010 published in Neuroscience magazine titled "Hazardous Nature of High-Temporal-Frequency-Strobe Light Stimulation: Neural Mechanisms revealed by Magnetoencephalography" online that says the effective harmonic frequency to induce effect on the brain through optical perception is around *6.5Hz*. Here is a link
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20060038
> 
> If this scientific study published in Neuroscience is correct then wouldn't it mean that strobe frequencies of 6.5kHz, 13kHz, and 19.5kHz would be most effective for disorientation, having the greatest induced effect on the brain being whole multipliers of 1000, 2000, and 3000 respectively?


It's an interesting paper, thanks for having drawn my attention to it. I've reviewed the results in the full paper, and the most that can be said is that they appear to have observed visually evoked magnetic field changes (VEFs) in response to specific strobe frequencies, and that these were at least partially harmonically related in some of the individuals. 

But note my carefully wording above - the results are frankly a bit of mess, and that "6.5 Hz" mean they cite is highly misleading. First off, strobes were provided only at round number frequencies (i.e., 4, 6, 8 Hz, etc.), and the analysis is based on averages of the group. Even when a "fundamental frequency" VEF could even be detected among their 9 subjects, individual responses varied from 4.5-10Hz across each of the three main phases. In any given phase, only some of the individuals showed a clear harmonic response. Worse than that, most of the individuals varied considerably across the three phases in their own harmonics. There was really only one individual of the group who showed a reasonably consistent ~5 Hz harmonic across the three phases. So giving an overall average of "6.5Hz" for this rather discordant group of higher inter- and intra-individual variability is bit of a stretch (not to mention all the limitations of any one specific experiemental design). 

The principle holds that it is possible there are VEF harmonics in some individuals, in the ~4-8 Hz range, to strobe light (i.e. multiples of some frequency in that range could induce consistent VEF changes that you can measure by MEG). But the literature doesn't support anything more specific than that. And of course, it is hard to know what those VEF measures practically mean in terms of the effect of stobe light on the individual (i.e., none of this may be clinically relevant at all).



> I loved this type of interface but there is some discrepancy in regards to the strobe for the Scorpion type lights as they have advertised a strobe frequency of 10khz which would be a less effective frequency based on the above theory. However Selfbuilt's review of the Scorpion said that the strobe on the Scorpion measured at 13.1kHz on the oscilloscope which would mean that it is right where it would need to be. I don't own this light. Anyone want to chime in on the efficacy of it's strobe?


Ah, that was only the original short-lived "V1" Scorpion that had a 13 kHz strobe. It was quickly replaced by the V2 (still available for sale, I believe) that had a 10 Hz strobe that matched the specs. Of course, it could have changed since then.



> I just purchased an ArmyTek Predator XPG2 light driven at 2.1 amps that has a programmable strobe frequency ability. It is factory programmed at 15kHz but you can change it to any frequency from 1Hz to 50kHz for your custom modes and make it come on first if you like. The factory strobe setting at 15kHz is annoying but its more the brightness that is bothering me than the frequency. The hotspot is just so intense on that light. I just wish there was a way to know definitively what I can program it to as it sweeps through the frequencies without an oscilloscope.


The Predator was interesting, but it was indeed hard to select the strobe frequency you wanted. My V1 ramped through at an accelerated rate (i.e. you have over 30 secs to choose among the first 1-12 Hz, but then just a couple of seconds to choose between 12-50 Hz).  The highest frequency I was ever able to isolate in practice was 30 Hz.

Interesting side-bar: the lower frequencies were the typical 50:50 pulse width, but as the ramp accelerated into the high frequencies, the on-phase also increased (up to ~65% on by the time it reach 30 Hz in my testing). This is one of the reasons for my warning a few posts back to consider (and measure) pulse width as well as frequency when trying to study strobes. I would be concerned that any given manufacturer may not be keeping the pulse width constant as they increase strobe frequency.

I should be testing the newer Armytek models when they are ready, so we'll see how they do. :wave:


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## fletch31

Very cool Selfbuilt. I couldn't find access to the whole study online without paying for it, just the abstract and the figures. The devil is in the details apparently. I had stumbled upon your Scorpion V2 review and edited my post without seeing your answer post first. Sorry about that. I love your reviews and bought the Armytek Predator based its regulation demonstrated in your first review. They have bumped up the driver from 1.5A to 2.1 for the XPG2 though there are a few XPG2 lights floating around that have the old 1.5 driver apparently. I ordered directly from Armytek to ensure I got the latest and greatest with the 8% CPF discount. I look forward to your review on it. 

Perhaps a strobe that sweeps rapidly through a 10Hz to 15Hz range to cover the potential workable fundamental harmonics from the study would work to avoid triggering seizures. I seem to recall Maxa Beam by Peak making a light for the military that has some fixed range auto sweeping strobe ability. I will have to look that one up. It was a couple years ago.

***Edit*** Yep they have a light that sweeps from 8-15hz at 38% duration. They did say that is made to a Naval Surface Warefare Center specification as an effective tool for ocular disruption. They are the MBS-430-W series of lights.


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## RI Chevy

Excellent reports! :thumbsup:


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## bluemax_1

fletch31 said:


> Very cool Selfbuilt. I couldn't find access to the whole study online without paying for it, just the abstract and the figures. The devil is in the details apparently. I had stumbled upon your Scorpion V2 review and edited my post without seeing your answer post first. Sorry about that. I love your reviews and bought the Armytek Predator based its regulation demonstrated in your first review. They have bumped up the driver from 1.5A to 2.1 for the XPG2 though there are a few XPG2 lights floating around that have the old 1.5 driver apparently. I ordered directly from Armytek to ensure I got the latest and greatest with the 8% CPF discount. I look forward to your review on it.
> 
> Perhaps a strobe that sweeps rapidly through a 10kHz to 15kHz range to cover all the potential fundamental harmonics from the study would work to avoid triggering seizures. I seem to recall Maxa Beam by Peak making a light for the military that has some fixed range auto sweeping strobe ability. I will have to look that one up. It was a couple years ago.
> 
> ***Edit*** Yep they have a light that sweeps from 8-15hz at 38% duration but that is hertz not kilo hertz. They did say that is made to Naval Surface Center specification as an effective tool for ocular disruption. They are the MBS-430-W series of lights.[h=1][/h]



Great additions to the thread.

I just thought I'd clarify one detail. ALL the flashlight strobes we're discussing have frequencies measured in Hz or Hertz, i.e. 'cycles-per-second' (they flash 10 to 20 times per second), NOT kHz or kiloHertz which means 'thousand-cycles-per-second' (if the strobe frequencies were in kHz, the lights would flash 10,000-20,000 times per second).

Frequencies in the 10kHz - 20kHz range are not noticeable to the naked eye. In fact, flashlights that use PWM (Pulse Width Modulation) instead of Constant Current to control the LED brightness levels don't produce very noticeable artifacts when they use higher frequencies in the 1.5kHz+ range (although some folks are more sensitive to the flickering than others). PWM flickering becomes more noticeable when the PWM frequency is in the hundreds of Hz range though.



Max


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## Grizzlyb

Hi Fletch31,

GREAT report. I am very glad that our observations are in line with Ken J. Goods earlier reports on Strobe. 

The trick to touch guys on the shoulder or give them a play full punch to the belly or kick in the ***, is one of the starting procedures of our training. As a starter we let the biggest guy in the group try to run us down with a punch bag in front of him. He may body check us as hard as he wants. (there always are some, that really want to proof them self for the female students) 
Just before he reaches us he'll get strobed, and we sidestep and tap him on the back of the head. 
Yes, we have a fun job:devil:. 

We have done a lot of research on the possible side effects of strobe lights. 
The info on it is not always 100% the same. 
Some researchers talk about patients with epileptic seizures in frequencies between 5Hz and 20Hz and some patients even up to the 70Hz region. Others make the range much more narrow between 15Hz and 20Hz. 
General consensus is that it is above 5Hz, and it is very rear (1 in 4000 person are more or less photosensitive), it occur's more with children, and it gets less with adulthood. A large part of that 4000 is only sensitive in 1 specific frequency, which can be somewhere between 5Hz and 20Hz, or even higher. 

Randomly strobing lights are not known to be a cause of photosensitive epilepsy. 
To be on the safe side, this could be the reason, why manufacturers use this kind of strobe. 
Point sources of strobes are less likely to induce a seizure than a diffuse source of light which covers a large part of a persons field of vision. 

Also there seem to be a color factor. 
A substantial group of patients where not effected by white light, but did have problems with strobe in red light and a small part in green light 
(a research study in 2010). 
And the time factor also seems to play a role in causing epileptic problems. Some research found, that for many patients it could take up to 60 seconds before they could measure the start of any form discomfort. 

So the chance for an adult having an epileptic problem when looking at a tactical strobe light for a few seconds, with for example 20hz white light, is rear to the extreme. 
And then, we only use it during an arrest of a suspect. The other choices in that type of situations are spray and physical force. . .


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## fletch31

oooh dang it. I will go back and modify my posts. I was confusing my audio frequency units from my speaker hobby. Thanks Bluemax and Grizz!


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## hombreluhrs

Thanks everyone for this info. Very interesting.


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## Sparky's Magic

@Grizzlyb: What is your recommendation for holding the tactical strobe i.e. high left with arm fully extended as taught to me with light assisted encounters; or other hold? I'm thinking that there may be a slight silhouette with the arm fully extended.

Thanks.


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## Ken J. Good

As always CPF turns out to be a great resource for those interested in the practical application of photon therapy. 

I am currently in Europe working with some military units with respect to the Night Reaper (a fairly substantial lighting tool in it's own right actually). I need to get some sleep before working my way back home, so I will not go into any great detail at this time. 

1. Some great observations and practical wisdom presented by Grizzlyb. Thank you taking the time to express your experiences and practical understanding. I am always blown away at fellow members technical data contributions. Impressive. I don't know my Hz from Mega-watts. 

2. Some assumptions were expressed and conclusions drawn about my actual history / motivations / doctrine that in simple terms were inaccurate. It is always interesting to me to read about what I did or did not do from somebody who never actually interacted with me. I know what actually happened and who did what, when, where and why because I happened to be there. Funny. 

3. When we rolled out the Gladius I was chided from near and far for "selling a gimmick", "creating marketing hype", "dangerous" etc, etc. I stated in several Internet Forums as well as face-to-face to all detractors something to effect:
"Nobody knows, (including us) the actual implications (Pros & Cons) of including a Strobe Function in a flashlight designed to be used in a confrontation situation as there is very little practical experience in a real-world situation with the capability. But I will state for the record, this will fundamentally change tactics as well as hardware in Low-Light environments from this point forward". 

4. I believe Many manufacturers have embedded a strobe function into their product offering not because they truly understood it's significance and requisite employment doctrine, but included it because basically everybody else around them did!

I am looking forward to digesting this thread and trying to post an intelligent detailed response to a few statements. 

Best to all.


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## fletch31

Looking forward to it! :thumbsup:


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## Joe88XJ

Great article....thanks for taking the time to share this information with us.


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## Grizzlyb

Ken J. Good said:


> As always CPF turns out to be a great resource for those interested in the practical application of photon therapy.
> 
> I am currently in Europe working with some military units with respect to the Night Reaper (a fairly substantial lighting tool in it's own right actually). I need to get some sleep before working my way back home, so I will not go into any great detail at this time.



Hi Ken,
Many thanks for Your reaction, and time You took to clarify things for us. 
Being in Europe, . . . . 
Your are MORE then welcome on our training facility of the Police Academy in Amsterdam. 
PM me for a celnr. if You are in the position to pay us a visit.

High regards
K. vd Linden


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## Grizzlyb

Sparky's Magic said:


> @Grizzlyb: What is your recommendation for holding the tactical strobe i.e. high left with arm fully extended as taught to me with light assisted encounters; or other hold? I'm thinking that there may be a slight silhouette with the arm fully extended.
> Thanks.



Hi Sparky,

There still seems to be a little miscommunication? around the main use of our Tactical Light. 
We use it for 99% in hand to hand combat, to gain a short time tactical advantage. 
When You DO mean the technic in Hand to Hand, 
Under those conditions we "fast draw" the light left handed (opposite of gun hand) and hold it in front of us, close to our chests, aimed at the face of the aggressor. This way You are still able to use your Tactical Light hand for a punch, or let go of your light to arrest the opponent. (our light hangs from the spiral cord so we don't loose it ) 


The "gun related" technic you describe is the FBI technic. 
On the shooting range my personal preference is the Harries technic. (but that is just personal, depending on weapon and situation)

But with the FBI technic, there indeed can be slight silhouette. Thats a good observation.


----------



## bluemax_1

Ken J. Good said:


> As always CPF turns out to be a great resource for those interested in the practical application of photon therapy.
> 
> I am currently in Europe working with some military units with respect to the Night Reaper (a fairly substantial lighting tool in it's own right actually). I need to get some sleep before working my way back home, so I will not go into any great detail at this time.
> 
> 1. Some great observations and practical wisdom presented by Grizzlyb. Thank you taking the time to express your experiences and practical understanding. I am always blown away at fellow members technical data contributions. Impressive. I don't know my Hz from Mega-watts.
> 
> 2. Some assumptions were expressed and conclusions drawn about my actual history / motivations / doctrine that in simple terms were inaccurate. It is always interesting to me to read about what I did or did not do from somebody who never actually interacted with me. I know what actually happened and who did what, when, where and why because I happened to be there. Funny.
> 
> 3. When we rolled out the Gladius I was chided from near and far for "selling a gimmick", "creating marketing hype", "dangerous" etc, etc. I stated in several Internet Forums as well as face-to-face to all detractors something to effect:
> "Nobody knows, (including us) the actual implications (Pros & Cons) of including a Strobe Function in a flashlight designed to be used in a confrontation situation as there is very little practical experience in a real-world situation with the capability. But I will state for the record, this will fundamentally change tactics as well as hardware in Low-Light environments from this point forward".
> 
> 4. I believe Many manufacturers have embedded a strobe function into their product offering not because they truly understood it's significance and requisite employment doctrine, but included it because basically everybody else around them did!
> 
> I am looking forward to digesting this thread and trying to post an intelligent detailed response to a few statements.
> 
> Best to all.



Greetings Ken. Looking forward to your contributions to the thread.


Max


----------



## hikingman

This is a fascinating thread and I know much of the comment is from the LEO point of view, all well and good and interesting. But I am a civilian and as my user name suggests, a hiker. Both in the wild woods and in my reasonably safe neighborhoods. But I DO carry a light for safety, in hopes someone up to no good in the shadows will stay clear of a man who is acting aware of his surroundings. I have 2 questions:

1) I realize why LEO are not going to carry massive lights around all day and night, but for one who is out exercising and walking, a heavy light like, say the new Fenix models TK75 and RC40 or Eagletac's MX25L2, to name 3 I am familiar with, are all exceedingly bright. But their beams are not tightly focused (like a Thrunight TN31 or the upcoming DEFT-X). Is that a problem? Or is the sheer high candelas of these monsters make them an effective potential deterrent (for someone like me - an untrained civilian)?

2) Are these lights becoming dangerous to the eyes of others? And by that, I mean long term as opposed to what they can do to someone for a short time? I hope this isn't a silly question, because I would not want to hurt someone, who then turns out to not be the aggressor that for a split second concerned me. Hope that is clear.

Dave


----------



## AnAppleSnail

1. My experience is that your environment matters most for this. In urban areas, I find a need for overwhelming lumens in a floody beam. In rural areas, throw becomes far more important. This is due to light of the environment helping (Or hindering) seeing. It takes an impractical lux value to significantly light a city street more, but a floody beam is quite useful...with tons of lumens.

2. I do not expect eye damage at reasonable range with these lights. In some cases, existing eye problems are highlighted after bright light exposure.


----------



## Grizzlyb

Hi Hikingman,

What AnAppleSnail said +1.
Never encountered any eye problems with students or other LEO's. 
So, as long as You don't overdo it. . . (from 1" distance, 20 minutes at 3500 lm in someone's eyeball  )

But this thread is more for other use of TL with strobe. 
It is not some miracle device. 
Just a way to gain some extra time to act. 
With the proper training that can make a difference for a LEO, or civillian with the right training to get away.


----------



## hikingman

Thanks to both of you for your comments


----------



## KITROBASKIN

Could I take this opportunity to nominate this thread as the most compelling read on the forum?

Briefly, regarding hiking: A tight thrower is not good for dense forest, a floody light is more useful. Otherwise, the more light, the better? The Nitecore tm26 might make sense for non tactical use. Enough said?


----------



## bluemax_1

hikingman said:


> This is a fascinating thread and I know much of the comment is from the LEO point of view, all well and good and interesting. But I am a civilian and as my user name suggests, a hiker. Both in the wild woods and in my reasonably safe neighborhoods. But I DO carry a light for safety, in hopes someone up to no good in the shadows will stay clear of a man who is acting aware of his surroundings. I have 2 questions:
> 
> 1) I realize why LEO are not going to carry massive lights around all day and night, but for one who is out exercising and walking, a heavy light like, say the new Fenix models TK75 and RC40 or Eagletac's MX25L2, to name 3 I am familiar with, are all exceedingly bright. But their beams are not tightly focused (like a Thrunight TN31 or the upcoming DEFT-X). Is that a problem? Or is the sheer high candelas of these monsters make them an effective potential deterrent (for someone like me - an untrained civilian)?
> 
> 2) Are these lights becoming dangerous to the eyes of others? And by that, I mean long term as opposed to what they can do to someone for a short time? I hope this isn't a silly question, because I would not want to hurt someone, who then turns out to not be the aggressor that for a split second concerned me. Hope that is clear.
> 
> Dave



My take on this:
1) the candela of the lights matter the most in temporarily blinding a target. In broad daylight, a 100,000 candela light (or higher) is STILL going to be bright when flashed in someone's face/eyes. At night when it's dark, it's going to leave them seeing afterimage spots for a few minutes.

2) You're generally not going to be flashing someone in the face from 6" away (where it does potentially pose a danger). At that range, they're going to close their eyes the moment you swing that big light up, as they'll likely assume you're going to club them with it (another advantage of some of these club-like lights like the RC40 and TK70, and the TK75 to a lesser degree. Not many people want to mess with someone with a very bright light that's also large enough to be a formidable blunt force object). At the ranges you might use it to temporarily obscure their vision (1 - 30 yards), it shouldn't pose any danger of permanent harm because the natural response to exposure to a really bright light is to close your eyes or turn away immediately. In dark conditions, at ranges under 30 yards, these lights ARE bright enough to cause discomfort and possibly even a little pain though, and no one (especially an innocent victim) is going to appreciate it.

The element of surprise is one of the good reasons to have a multimode/multilevel brightness light that has the ability to go from a lower mode to Max brightness immediately. Unless you're strolling about in a very wide open area, you won't usually be using the Max modes on some of these lights. The reflections and luminous backsplash from closer objects when hit with these 100,000cd+ beams will be bright enough to blind you and be very detrimental to your dark adaptation. You'd only see what's lit up in the 'tunnel' of light. You'll most likely use the lower modes for walking/hiking. Using a lower mode (somewhere in the 100-200 total lumen range) reduces the impairment to your night vision (whilst also hiding the light's true potential from a potential threat). 

If needed however, the ability to immediately switch from a lower mode to the Max or Strobe mode can give you the element of surprise in momentarily disrupting their vision, giving you enough time to get away. I'm not 100% sure about the interfaces for the TK75 and RC40, but the TM26 allows this. I can walk around at the 95 lumen setting (or 540 lumen setting in more open areas), and if need be, hold the button to go straight to 3500 lumens, or double click and hold for tactical strobe (or, full click the TM26's button to turn the light Off, for a split second, and full click to turn it On straight to 3500 lumens. A useful trick because the moment of darkness usually makes the target try harder to see you just as they get the full brightness). It's only 43,000cd vs the 100,000 or 130,000 of some of these lights, but that is plenty bright for a target anywhere out to 45 yards (and you don't really need to strobe/blind someone further out than that do you?).


Max


----------



## texas cop

With GrizzlyB and Selfbuilt posting that not all strobe is 50/50 on/off. 20hz could be lowered it seems if we scale the on/off right. Such as 15hz with 60/40 on/off and still not lose that movement detection. Any ideas if strobe cycle rate "Hz" and pulse on/off widths can be varied within the same light while still containing the need to keep him light so well that he can't move a finger without detection. This might give some very powerful disorientation. Much like a sparkler.


----------



## cue003

Very interesting post. I will like to get my hands on one of these lights and holster here in the states to see whAt it is like first hand. Is that possible?


----------



## hikingman

bluemax_1 said:


> You'll most likely use the lower modes for walking/hiking. Using a lower mode (somewhere in the 100-200 total lumen range) reduces the impairment to your night vision (whilst also hiding the light's true potential from a potential threat).
> 
> If needed however, the ability to immediately switch from a lower mode to the Max or Strobe mode can give you the element of surprise in momentarily disrupting their vision, giving you enough time to get away. I'm not 100% sure about the interfaces for the TK75 and RC40, but the TM26 allows this. I can walk around at the 95 lumen setting (or 540 lumen setting in more open areas), and if need be, hold the button to go straight to 3500 lumens, or double click and hold for tactical strobe (or, full click the TM26's button to turn the light Off, for a split second, and full click to turn it On straight to 3500 lumens. A useful trick because the moment of darkness usually makes the target try harder to see you just as they get the full brightness). It's only 43,000cd vs the 100,000 or 130,000 of some of these lights, but that is plenty bright for a target anywhere out to 45 yards (and you don't really need to strobe/blind someone further out than that do you?).
> 
> 
> Max



You are right about the use of lower modes most of the time, and many times it is the lowest possible. I have the TK75 now but based on Patriots excellent video review of the RC40, it too can react to provide immediate strobe no matter what level you were in. In fact, when walking in moonlight, I use no light at all, and pressing either button of the TK75 brings it to life and I think the RC40 is the same. So, as long as you are holding it and your finger is on or within reach of the "trigger" these Fenix lights are quick reacting. So if the light is by your bed at night, it can be set to light up in its lowest mode or provide full blast strobe, whichever is more appropriate. Good job Fenix:thumbsup:


----------



## Grizzlyb

Dangerous situations have the nasty habbit of being their when you least expect it.
So, to be of any real tactical use, you should be able to find a switch in any situation. 
Lights with a side switch, or even 2 side switches, fall not in this category. 

I tried it last night with these 2 big lights. Sorry, but it does not work that way. 
Even under normal conditions, I had to turn the RC40 several times around before my thumb found the 2 switches.
It is not easy to find these switches in the dark, and under stress it will be very difficult.
With all due respect, these are great lights, but they are build for an other purpose. 
The best you can buy, for seeing in the dark over large's areas, finding stuff or finding people.


----------



## hikingman

Grizzlyb said:


> Dangerous situations have the nasty habbit of being their when you least expect it.
> So, to be of any real tactical use, you should be able to find a switch in any situation.
> Lights with a side switch, or even 2 side switches, fall not in this category.
> 
> I tried it last night with these 2 big lights. Sorry, but it does not work that way.
> Even under normal conditions, I had to turn the RC40 several times around before my thumb found the 2 switches.
> I is not easy to find these switches in the dark, and under stress it will be very difficult.
> With all due respect, these are great lights, but they are build for an other purpose.
> The best you can buy, for seeing in the dark over large's areas, finding stuff or finding people.



I have to admit that, never having been in a really dangerous situation, perhaps I'd be dead meat even if the light had a dozen switches! But when walking, if I'm carrying a light in my hand in the first place, I naturally orient it so my finger is on the switch. But for everyday tactical missions, which is Grizzlyb's "business" I sure see his point. If I was asleep in my bedroom and awoke to someone knocking the door down, I appreciate the fact that it seems more likely I could find a switch at the tail end of a light quicker than 1 or 2 small ones on the side of a big cylinder.

I was trying to sell a tactical style light with the switch on the end. You've talked me into keeping it


----------



## Grizzlyb

hikingman said:


> I was trying to sell a tactical style light with the switch on the end. You've talked me into keeping it



Keep that one beside your bed, You'll be better of with it.:thumbsup:


----------



## Grizzlyb

texas cop said:


> With GrizzlyB and Selfbuilt posting that not all strobe is 50/50 on/off. 20hz could be lowered it seems if we scale the on/off right. Such as 15hz with 60/40 on/off and still not lose that movement detection. Any ideas if strobe cycle rate "Hz" and pulse on/off widths can be varied within the same light while still containing the need to keep him light so well that he can't move a finger without detection. This might give some very powerful disorientation. Much like a sparkler.



I don't have the means to do it myself, but next time I sit with the guys that build it, I'll ask.
Could be promising.

*Hi Cue003*,

You should be able to buy it online, they sell it in the UK, France, Belgium, Germany and Holland.
But I'll ask that too. Shipping will cost a lot, so probably not very effective.
There are enough manufacturers in the US that could build a tactical light to these specs.
They only have to read this thread, or ask?


----------



## Rick_R

cue003 said:


> Very interesting post. I will like to get my hands on one of these lights and holster here in the states to see whAt it is like first hand. Is that possible?


You can find these holders/holsters at:
1- "Brite-Strike", they only carry the one that grips from the top & bottom of a belt. I have this model, but it is a little wide & is only 34mm's I.D. at the bezel.
2- "Phoebus Tactical", they have all three models (belt attatchment types). In addition, it is available in both the 34mm & 37mm I.D. (bezel end). The 37mm ver. is adj. up & down for longer bezels. $32.00 + shiping (the cheapest around). I have this model on the way.
As a note, this is buy far the best holder/holster I have ever used. It's fast both in & out.
Hope this helps.

Rick


----------



## bluemax_1

Rick_R said:


> You can find these holders/holsters at:
> 1- "Brite-Strike", they only carry the one that grips from the top & bottom of a belt. I have this model, but it is a little wide & is only 34mm's I.D. at the bezel.
> 2- "Phoebus Tactical", they have all three models (belt attatchment types). In addition, it is available in both the 34mm & 37mm I.D. (bezel end). The 37mm ver. is adj. up & down for longer bezels. $32.00 + shiping (the cheapest around). I have this model on the way.
> As a note, this is buy far the best holder/holster I have ever used. It's fast both in & out.
> Hope this helps.
> 
> Rick


Pity they don't make anything to fit the 40-42mm bezels many 'tactical' 1x18650 lights have these days.


Max


----------



## fletch31

bluemax_1 said:


> Pity they don't make anything to fit the 40-42mm bezels many 'tactical' 1x18650 lights have these days.
> 
> 
> Max



Au contraire, mon frere. I found this 43mm version two days ago:
http://www.lampentroll.de/themes/ka...ategorieid=45&source=2&refertype=1&referid=45

It exists but lapentroll.de doesn't have the United States available in the drop down menu for the shipping country selection. Now just to find a supplier for the US...

***Edit*** 
I called Phoebus Tactical and inquired with Randy about them carrying the 43mm version. They have the 34mm and 37mm versions now. I gave him some info regarding its existence and he said he would look into it regarding carrying it in the future. He also said he was familiar with our forum. Maybe he is a member.

Fletch31


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## Grizzlyb

fletch31 said:


> Au contraire, mon frere. I found this 43mm version two days ago:
> http://www.lampentroll.de/themes/ka...ategorieid=45&source=2&refertype=1&referid=45
> 
> It exists but lapentroll.de doesn't have the United States available for in the drop down menu for shipping country selection. Now just to find a supplier for the US...
> 
> Fletch31



Very good news Fletch,

There is a possibility that we test an other Tactical Light with a 40mm head. 
Armytek has some interesting models that we want to try.


----------



## nitehead

fletch31 said:


> It exists but lapentroll.de doesn't have the United States available in the drop down menu for shipping country selection.



Lampentroll ships to almost every country, so United States should be no problem. Shipping might be expensive, though. On the other hand, you save 19% value added tax, because of the non European destination  I have done business with Marcus (owner of lampentroll) in Germany, he always replys quite fast via E-Mail. You may want to contact him for details on individual shipping rates to the US


----------



## fletch31

nitehead said:


> Lampentroll ships to almost every country, so United States should be no problem. Shipping might be expensive, though. On the other hand, you save 19% value added tax, because of the non European destination  I have done business with Marcus (owner of lampentroll) in Germany, he always replys quite fast via E-Mail. You may want to contact him for details on individual shipping rates to the US



:thumbsup: Will do! Thanks
***Edit***
Marcus was very friendly and will ship to me here in the US for a 10 Euro shipping charge for a 43mm holster. This holster will work perfectly for my Armytek Predator. Thank you nitehead!


----------



## bluemax_1

fletch31 said:


> Au contraire, mon frere. I found this 43mm version two days ago:
> http://www.lampentroll.de/themes/ka...ategorieid=45&source=2&refertype=1&referid=45
> 
> It exists but lapentroll.de doesn't have the United States available in the drop down menu for the shipping country selection. Now just to find a supplier for the US...
> 
> ***Edit***
> I called Phoebus Tactical and inquired with Randy about them carrying the 43mm version. They have the 34mm and 37mm versions now. I gave him some info regarding its existence and he said he would look into it regarding carrying it in the future. He also said he was familiar with our forum. Maybe he is a member.
> 
> Fletch31


Nice find! I really like the design of this holster. Thanks to Grizzlyb for bringing it to our attention and good job on finding the bigger size Fletch31!



nitehead said:


> Lampentroll ships to almost every country, so United States should be no problem. Shipping might be expensive, though. On the other hand, you save 19% value added tax, because of the non European destination  I have done business with Marcus (owner of lampentroll) in Germany, he always replys quite fast via E-Mail. You may want to contact him for details on individual shipping rates to the US


Good info to know.


Max


----------



## bluemax_1

Dbl post
Max


----------



## Ragnar66

Would love to get one of those holsters in the 40mm size......seem pretty hard to find so far!


----------



## Grizzlyb

We talked a lot about the how and what, of the developments on tactical use of lights.
I tried to explain some details in a video. Don't think to much of it, it is just a visualization of what we already talked about in detail.
But sometimes 1 minute of pictures can say more than a 1000 words.
Have fun:


----------



## ledmitter_nli

We have disagreements about strobe frequency (i'm not going to revisit that debate ), so how about this,

What's your opinion about overwhelming 2,000+ constant on focused lumens verses a 500 lumen strobe?


----------



## RI Chevy

Excellent Video. Thank you for taking the time to do this for all of us. :thumbsup:


----------



## bluemax_1

ledmitter_nli said:


> We have disagreements about strobe frequency (i'm not going to revisit that debate ), so how about this,
> 
> What's your opinion about overwhelming 2,000+ constant on focused lumens verses a 500 lumen strobe?



As has been discussed ad infinitum, there's a world of difference between lumens and candela


Max


----------



## ledmitter_nli

bluemax_1 said:


> As has been discussed ad infinitum, there's a world of difference between lumens and candela
> 
> 
> Max



That's why I made a reference to "focused" lumens.


----------



## jaycyu

ledmitter_nli said:


> That's why I made a reference to "focused" lumens.


: p
The max lumen Vinhn can go with a focused LED is with the XML U3 6A DD on copper at 1200 OTF for a 6P-sized torch.
A more intense but smaller hotspot can be had with his XP-E2 3A copper at 400 OTF lumen.

Is the hotspot of the XP-E2 large enough to overlay both eyes at 1-2 meters, and contineously track the aggressor's evasive maneuvers?
My vote is currently on the XML.


----------



## ledmitter_nli

jaycyu said:


> : p
> The max lumen Vinhn can go with a focused LED is with the XML U3 6A DD on copper at 1200 OTF for a 6P-sized torch.
> A more intense but smaller hotspot can be had with his XP-E2 3A copper at 400 OTF lumen.
> 
> Is the hotspot of the XP-E2 large enough to overlay both eyes at 1-2 meters, and contineously track the aggressor's evasive maneuvers?
> My vote is currently on the XML.



... so yes, very high constant on lux verses 500 lumen strobe. Which wins?

(asking Grizz)


----------



## hikingman

My guess he's gonna say the one you can aim and "fire" the quickest when under "attack" when you have only a few seconds to act!


----------



## bluemax_1

jaycyu said:


> : p
> The max lumen Vinhn can go with a focused LED is with the XML U3 6A DD on copper at 1200 OTF for a 6P-sized torch.
> A more intense but smaller hotspot can be had with his XP-E2 3A copper at 400 OTF lumen.
> 
> Is the hotspot of the XP-E2 large enough to overlay both eyes at 1-2 meters, and contineously track the aggressor's evasive maneuvers?
> My vote is currently on the XML.





ledmitter_nli said:


> ... so yes, very high constant on lux verses 500 lumen strobe. Which wins?
> 
> (asking Grizz)



Not Grizzlyb, but I'll toss in my observations anyway:

It depends on the candela.

The whole point of the tactical strobe is to temporarily blind and disorient the subject to gain the advantage by negatively affecting one of our most heavily relied on senses, i.e. the sense of sight. If you use a light that is so blindingly bright, one single flash blinds them for a good while, the same effect is accomplished. The issue here is that given 2 average tactical use lights with identical output and identical candela (hotspot intensity), the strobe adds a further disorienting factor and does this without requiring candela so high you begin to risk potential harm to the subject.

Taken to the extreme though, if you could develop a flashbulb that would emulate the intensity of glancing at a nuclear event, the one single flash would be enough because the subject now has no vision left. That's not a practical solution though (even if it were viable), which is why there was some discussion on candela and intensity. Below a certain threshold, even the strobing of the light loses its effectiveness, but above a certain intensity, the light might begin to pose a hazard. By using a light of moderately high intensity WITH the effect of the strobe frequency, you can get the desired effect, while limiting the potential hazards.

I find that lights with a candela range between 20,000 and 30,000 to be extremely effective in a wide variety of lighting conditions at night and at the typical ranges it might be needed for such purposes. At this intensity even a single flash in the face/eyes, can temporarily disrupt/impair the subject's vision enough to gain an advantage and strobing them produces a very strong reaction. When the candela begins to climb into the 40,000+ region though, the light is not only disorienting, it begins to become painful and I haven't reviewed enough research to know where safe limits are beginning to be exceeded.

On the other hand, when the lights are in the 7,000 candela region or lower, they're not very effective even with a strobe, especially in urban ambient lighting. In near zero lighting with full dark adaptation, I have no doubt this amount of candela would still be extremely effective. The objective is to find the median though. For example, the Armytek Predator with XP-G2 produces almost 30,000 candela, but does so at the expense of spill, and that's another factor to consider. Depending on their usage, these lights need a certain amount of spill so that at a range of 2-5 yards, the spill lights the subject up enough that you can see if they might be holding a weapon. This is one of the things I dislike about the Predator; the spill at closer ranges is much narrower than with many other lights available. The hotspot is also a lot smaller, so at close ranges, you might not hit the target in the eyes with that hotspot on your first try. 

Even the Predator X v2 with the XM-L emitter has a narrow spill. It has to do with their reflector design. The Predator XM-L has a bigger hotspot than the XP-G2, but the spill seems fairly close, and still far narrower than lights like the Eagletac G25C2-mkII, Nitecore P25 and Olight M22 (the M22 has the widest spill of these lights mentioned). That spill also helps when chasing someone through dark backyards, and or searching a dark alley or clearing a room.

So to sum up, your question is not one that can be easily answered because there are limits to what is available, what is safe and what is practical. If you have no concern about any of these things, then I suppose a person could carry around an RC40 all the time.


Max


----------



## Ken J. Good

Grizzlyb: Thank you for taking the time to make the video. You obviously have strong opinions on what is or is not "tactical". 

I am wrestling with some of your logic here. 
I see several fallacies in your overall reasoning including incomplete comparison, mind projection fallacy, Nirvana fallacy and suppressed correlative. You have basically defined “tactical flashlight” in your own terms and excluded other possibilities.

You’ve driven the argument to one place; a single purpose flashlight that meets your particular operational requirements based on your methods of operation. 

Fine, what works for you (and others) is what works for you (and others).

What I have is in no uncertain terms in the indisputable fact based on first-hand experience and the direct testimony of many, many others (including a wide swath of police officers in performing in many capacities) of a long period of time, stating that other approaches also yield excellent, consistent results as well in the exact same set of circumstances you are describing.

Whew…what a run-on….

Your perfect flashlight, it’s akin to stating the only true definition of a car is one that has 10,000 hp, goes in straight line and goes from 0 to 340 mph in under 4 secs. Yes that is a car and the one most suited for winning drag races, however comma, that particular sport application does not in fact encompass the entire spectrum of vehicle operation.

When you toss out the word “tactical” it might be nice to start with the actual definition:

*1 :* of or relating to combat tactics: as

*a *(1) *:* of or occurring at the battlefront <a _tactical_ defense> <a _tactical_ first strike> (2) *:* using or being weapons or forces employed at the battlefront <_tactical_ missiles>

*b* _of an air force_ *:* of, relating to, or designed for air attack in close support of friendly ground forces

*2 a* *:* of or relating to tactics: as (1) *:* of or relating to small-scale actions serving a larger purpose (2) *:* made or carried out with only a limited or immediate end in view

*b* *:* adroit in planning or maneuvering to accomplish a purpose

Therefore unless you actual believe you have encircled the ENTIRE spectrum of combat with a single purpose flashlight (which you have not), you are going to have to open your aperture a bit wider.

Yes Police Officers spend most of their time not shooting people. We are in perfect agreement there. 

I see illumination tools as a series of calculated compromises. 
At this point, I believe one cannot have it all in one tool. The fundamental laws of physics, ergonomics, human factors, pricing dictate otherwise.

What is right for one; may be wrong for another.

When we first rolled out the Gladius, people were telling me, all I need is a button that turns the light ON and OFF. My response: That is awesome; you can obtain that in a wide variety of packages. You are set.

People resist change, it’s that simple.

I did not the come up with the Gladius as a result of pleasing a manufacturer or even for the potential commercial value as insinuated earlier in your comments.

It was the direct result of years of slinging rounds against shoot-back adversaries. It was dark, dynamic, and highly chaotic at times. Interspersed with that was and remains a serious study of close quarter combatives (hand-to-hand) while armed and wearing armor. I did not get paid more or less as result of my keen interest in this particular area.

We modified flashlights, brought multiple tools into the environment and fought it out. It was long-term trial and error in a semi-controlled training situation without any previous guidance, as doctrine simply did not exist.

I remember as child play fighting with my older brother in a darkened room while we had a strobe light on….Talk about some blindside takeouts!

As a corollary to this story, me and my older brother (4th​ and 5th​ grade), used to bring the old disposable Kodak Flash cubes with us on school field trips. We would sneak into other peoples sleeping spaces and “Flash” them just as we would wake them up….Yes we were little *******s, but I almost lost a kidney laughing so hard at people’s total disorientation.

Anyway, years later, while looking to make some improvised devices for students to locate during bomb searches, I noted a strobe light on the shelf and purchased it. I brought this plug into the wall variant onto our training platform. The downrange results to the opponents were highly debilitating to them in terms of situational awareness. The phrase “Win the Light Fight and you will probably Win the Gunfight” was born out of these experiences. If fact, my fellow instructors started telling me I could not bring that particular light setup into the training environment because it was basically impossible for the students to accomplish their tasking while subjected to the effects of strobing light.

Only after was I was fully convinced that the practical operational benefits of strobing outweighed the potential downsides, did I lobby any manufacturer for it’s inclusion.

At the time, I happened to be working for Surefire as the Director of the Surefire Institute. I tabled the concept multiple times and it was outright rejected and considered nonsensical by those sitting behind a computer desk. 

Again, people resist change.

From that point forward, I kept it under my proverbial hat and decided that somehow, someway I was going to bring this forward. It was born of passion, not monetary gain.

Through a long convoluted chain of events, I finally had the opportunity to bring my vision to life. It was the Gladius. At the time, 3-watt LED emitters had just broken the 60-lumen threshold. I believe it was just enough to give it a shot. Together with the resources of Blackhawk Industries, the first light specifically designed to be used in so-called “tactical situations” with multi-function (including strobe) was released.
From THAT point forward others have attempted to create multi-function flashlights that may or may not be useful.

I would like to drop back and mention how we arrived at the strobe frequency of the Gladius. One of the engineers simply created a box with an LED emitter. The user could simply dial the frequency rate in and an evaluation could made as to the perceived disorientation downrange. That is, what the recipient was experiencing. It was sent around the country to folks we knew operating in the real-world in Law Enforcement or the Military. The #1 and #2 frequencies selected were 12 & 13.
So the Gladius was set accordingly.

What I am reading here is that higher frequency might be better for observation of the recipient. 

I have never parsed that out too tightly as I never really noted any difficulty observing any and all movements of my opponents. I will however take your observations into account; I consider it good data.

Back to One function or Multi-function:

This is the question at hand in my view.

A strong argument can be made for 1 function and 1 function only. I see it. Given the total amount of exposure to stress, training and many of those attempting to use tool A, B, or C in any given situation. People make bad decisions under duress like reaching for a pistol instead of Taser and end up unintentionally killing subjects. They put their car in Reverse as opposed to Forward and reap the reward of said decision/action.

The case can be clearly made for need to remove as much complexity as possible. Agreed.

Therefore get yourself the appropriate tool.

Don’t strap yourself into an F/A-18 when all you can fly is a Cessna 152.

Myself (and others), might have the where-with-all to see situations as they develop and easily switch my Gladius form factor (rotary dial) from one-function to another seamlessly, without friction or hesitation. 

That is the general idea of prevailing in all combat; to ability to adapt to the situations as they unfold. Better operators can do more with more.

Back to the Basics:
It turns out, that if one not forced to shoot somebody to in a Law Enforcement capacity a series of critcal choices will have to be made anyway. One must select, to verbally engage only, baton, OC, Taser, K9, Less-lethal munitions, hands on, and Oh, I might have to roll my flashlight dial one-click to strobe as my partner is covering down on the subject with his or her firearm. 

There are notable time gaps from which to work within. Things during this process don’t happen instantaneously. They unfold, albeit, rapidly at times.

Bottom line is that most arrest and control situations are not an immediate life-threatening situation and choices must be cycled through and selected in a relatively calm, professional manner.

I am with you with respect to multiple pushes on a button to change modes. In my view, this is clearly a no-go. Hence the design of a fast-acting, simple rotary dial of a flashlight I designed quite some time ago. 

Back to the modes. Too many; not good. In my view, 3 choices were enough, but no too much. It was calculated comprise of options and relative simplicity.

Why the inclusion of another mode (navigation) in the first place?

Keep in mind the inclusion of Strobe Mode was fraught with negative angst when it was first introduced. What’s this Nav Mode?

Based on years of FoF training and real-world feedback, In my view it's always a good thing, not to get shot prior to arresting somebody while I am blasting my 300-800+ Lumens of steady or strobing flashlight all over the place during a navigation challenge in a low-light environment. 

Flashlights are bullet-magnets, period. I have several documented Law Enforcement case studies clearly indicating this.
I have years and years of FoF simulations that also demonstrates this.

It’s also good not to devastate your teammates night adaptation while you are trying to maneuver.

Stealth is a welcome friend in many “tactical” situations.

Would you then say, use a different tool to accomplish this tasking or just ignore it as reality?

If you state: Switch tools, my response then would be how much time/decision-making cycles and bio-mechanical movement would be required to switch from Navigation Mode back “tactical mode with an entire tool change?

If you state: Not a valid consideration, my response then would be, I believe you would be mistaken.

In conclusion:

I am not here to tell operator’s which tools to use to accomplish their mission. I am here to tell them how to accomplish their mission. 

I do believe it’s to everyone’s benefit to have an array of tools at your disposal that one can actually use under duress. 

For some, it’s one function. For others, they can leverage additional, usable options in the dynamic making them effective in a wider diversity of situations.


----------



## Grizzlyb

bluemax_1 said:


> As has been discussed ad infinitum, there's a world of difference between lumens and candela
> 
> Max



Max, Jaycu,
please do us a favor, 

Don't react anymore. It will start all over again. He will keep trying to get a reason to start flaming again. 
As long as a moderator does not remove his posts, just Ignore it.
He allmost killed the thread twice, he will keep trying untill he has his result.


----------



## ledmitter_nli

:shrug:


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## Grizzlyb

Hi Ken,

Thanks for You informative answer.
First of all, I made the mistake to not include in the video, that I talk about Dutch police officers, working under Dutch situations and laws.

I do have some years experience in this field, but mainly on Dutch grounds, under Dutch rules and laws.
I am on the Amsterdam Police force since 1-1-1972. Have been in every squad there was up to 1999. After that the Academy asked me to come.
Last 14 Years I am trainer of all squads, street officers, students, Riot squads and everything that has a weapon.

But apart from that, every officer that uses his gun, has to make a full report and tell the hole story from a to z . . . to me.
Thats part of our job as trainers in Amsterdam. We look into every case that shooting was involved.
So we know of every shooting incident of the past 15 years, and we keep records of these incidents.
We can tell You, that there where* zero shooting incidents where the officer had a light in his/her hand.
*
About EVERY site I read on the internet, when there is talk about Tactical Lights, It is always about guns, which technique (Harries, FBI, etc.) 
Even You do it, You start talking of getting shot and bullit magnet. We can't press this point enough. This light is NOT intended for use in gun situations. Sorry to say, but that is not the way 99,9999% of the Dutch LEO's works with their lights.

We have a different approach. We use our tactical lights more as a way to gain a short tactical advantage in weaponless situations. We never talk about guns and the use of this type of light. 
Special Squads use other lights, special designed and more suited to there needs.

In Holland every LEO has to follow special developed training for a minimum of 32 hours each year.
75% of that time is used for hand to hand combat. Training with and without weapons.

Every time they use a weapon they have to report that in full length. 
When they dont use a weapon, but can overpower an aggressor without any damage, they DON'T have to report, no harm done. 
So we teach them to gain every tactical advantage they can come up with. . . . . and here comes this tactical light in handy.
There are even special trainings to control "mental" patients that go berserk and have to be controlled.
In many country's we see that LEO's use a lot of (unnecessary)force to control these people. 
We use a special technique called SPOR procedure, together with our tactical lights. 
Work perfectly no damage to us or them. 
Your right that in many cases, like that SPOR procedure, we have time to choose the mode we need. 
But, in our line of work, many times we don't. Situations like problems in bars, domestic fights etc. Everything seems to be calm and from out of the blue things start happening. 
We are always in pairs, You look at your partner, signal for arrest and go in. 
Blind the guy, overpower him and done deal. Time to go in the pouch somewhere on the backside on your belt? no, Time to search for that damn strobe mode? no, tactical holster is perfect, just pulle the light use it, let it drop and have your hands free. Simple and effective. And, it works. many many many times over. So no opinion Ken, facts.

Keep in mind, we talk about non weapon related situations.

Maybe in your situations there is always time to choose what ever tactic or technique you need for the given situation.
In Holland it is many times the same, but also a lot of times not. Many times officers have to react in a split second.
Luckily most times they can see instantly that it is not live threatening, but they do have to react under stress, no time to think a lot about it.
Indoors, it is not wise to use the pepper spray we work with. So they are trained to grab there tactical light and have a short time a similar effect. Just a few moments, but enough to react.
But when they DO have time, they can always switch to 1 of the 3 different modes, Low Mid or high, without strobe.

With the right training I can teach you too. When You are in Holland, PM me, Your more then welcome on the training facility.
We already had lots of US trainers to work with us and learn together, You'll probably know Jim Wagner? He was one of them and trained several times with us.

Never know, maybe a new inside, or a new way to use these lights on different fields?
It works for us, so probably for other LEO's in similar situations?

They developed lights for guns, for searching and for many other fields of our work, So why not developed a light for this part of work.
It has not been done till today, So we did it our self.
More or less the same as you did some 5 years ago?

And for the record, it is not my strong opinion.
We developed these facts together with about 45 trainers of our academie, and with the help of the University of Amsterdam. (and specialist from FBI, guys like Jim, and many other guests of our Academy)
It has been proven over the last years in hundreds of trainings and many real life situations.
But as said, It goes for our situation, maybe not in your country?

We don't have a preference for 1 brand of lights. As long as they can make what we need, it's ok with us.
Gladius and Surefire have great lights, but nothing that suits our needs. 
If they start making it. great we are all the wiser for it.:thumbsup:

Edit:
Your right on the point that there are many other tactical uses for lights, I should have stated that more explicit.
But we found, that for the regular LEO, there is a big unexplored field that a light can be used many times more often than in gun situations.

And about work with nav mode,
What happens more often, simple non weapon arrests, or saituations that u need a nav mode? 
And working with LEO's, You should know as we do, that:
When we develop a light that CAN be changed, 80% WILL change it to always work in 20lm mode for reading drivers licence. Whats tactical about that?


----------



## bluemax_1

Grizzlyb said:


> Max, Jaycu,
> please do us a favor,
> 
> Don't react anymore. It will start all over again. He will keep trying to get a reason to start flaming again.
> As long as a moderator does not remove his posts, just Ignore it.
> He allmost killed the thread twice, he will keep trying untill he has his result.


Understood. I'll refrain from responding to him in the future.


Max


----------



## Dave D

Keep up the good work Grizzlyb, as a Police Officer I do like the K.I.S.S approach (Keep It Simple Stupid), it makes sense to me that when you need to use the tool for the job in a high stress situation then you do not want to be concerned with making changes, when you are in a non time critical situation then you have the time to think about such things.

From my understanding of this thread the 'tactical' flashlight that Grizzlyb and his colleagues have developed is for an identifiable group of people (the Dutch Police) and has been developed with the tactical knowledge and limitations of that group in mind, hence the K.I.S.S. approach. I'm sure that it would be very suitable for the majority of European Police Officers.

I don't believe that Grizlby is saying that this is the ultimate TACTICAL light for LEO's for every eventuality.

With body armour, radios, batons, pepper spray, handcuffs and flashlights etc (I didn't include firearm as I'm in the UK) that we have to carry it is better to have a multipurpose flashlight that can be used in specific tactical situations than to have to carry a range of suitable flashlights for every eventuality.


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## bluemax_1

Ken, thanks for sharing your experiences and insights. I particularly like the tales of your 'path' to developing tactical strobes. I noted this enhanced effect of a strobing vs constant light and used to use my Surefire's momentary switch to manually produce a strobe (I can twitch my thumb very quickly LOL) back before the Gladius introduced it to the world of tactical lights. When other guys saw it, or experienced it firsthand, they noted that it was a lot more annoying/disorienting than just the constant light. When the Gladius first came out with the specs mentioning a strobe mode, I recall thinking at the time, "Finally!"

Grizzlyb,

In first reading this thread, I appreciated (and still do) all the data confirming the debilitating effects of flashlights with a tactical strobe mode and can appreciate that for the Dutch police force, the interface of the Eden TL, is optimal, but I also took note of the fact that you mentioned that shooting incidents are very rare there and that apparently, it's far less common for the Dutch police to encounter suspects armed with firearms who initiate the shooting. It appears from your descriptions, that the vast majority of the time, hand-to-hand techniques (with the added advantage from a strobing flashlight) are what's needed/used to take care of a situation.

Unfortunately, we're not so lucky in the US. Over here, the different firearm laws and availability mean that practically anyone could have a firearm and you never know when encountering someone if they may be armed, and/or about to use some weapon immediately. We've had routine traffic stops for something simple like a busted tail light or other minor traffic violation where on approaching the vehicle, the driver immediately fired on the approaching officer with no warning, because the driver is a wanted felon (or even simply because they're under the influence of some substance, aren't thinking straight and have a firearm handy).

LEO's in the US therefore, approach situations with a different more cautious and assessing mindset. Engaging in hand-to-hand is not really trained as the primary instinctive response. Because there's no way of knowing for sure if someone may or may not have a gun and may or may not give much warning before using it, the approach is a little different and more cautious, which as Ken mentioned, tends to mean a little more space and time to assess the situation and the subject. 

Civilians in the US also approach LEO's with a different mindset, knowing that the LEO's are perpetually wary of any suspects who might suddenly try to stab or shoot them, and as such are prepared to use deadly force if necessary (or pepper spray or a taser at any sign of violence). I'm not saying that US LEO's don't engage in hand-to-hand scuffles from time to time, but the ratio/percentage of encounters this accounts for apparently differs between Dutch vs US LEO's.

I think the difference in potential risks/threats faced in the different countries affects the approach AND the mentalities of both the LEO and the civilians, which in turn lead to different philosophies as far as the gear goes (in this case, the operational functionality and interface of the flashlight). 

With the majority of the LEO's here, what is most desired is a very bright Maximum mode with decent runtime that has a momentary forward clicky for the ability to be flashed on briefly, or clicked on for constant light and a lower mode for multiple uses when maximum brightness is not needed or wanted. Admittedly, many guys here still don't feel a strobe feature is a necessity, EVEN when they've witnessed its effectiveness or experienced the enhanced debilitating effects firsthand, and this is because they perceive limited encounters where having the strobe would be of greatest benefit. In their minds (and for practical purposes with situations here), the strobe mode's usefulness would be restricted to situations with a suspect who has been assessed at a distance upon approach as unarmed, belligerent and potentially aggressive/violent, in which case telling them to calm down or face being arrested and/or pepper sprayed/tasered is the preferred approach.

The K.I.S.S. approach to them means a 2-mode light, with a "bright enough to blind the other guy" (or light up a dark backyard or alley) mode, and a "low enough not to blind me" mode, without worrying about any other modes or options. The more flexible minded folks do consider the potential of a selectable strobe mode though.

I think, because of the different approaches and mentalities of the LEO's and the suspects, there are far more 'rabbits' here (suspects who immediately bolt or run away), than guys who might physically attack an LEO with bare hands. As such, what all the guys want is a bright primary mode because that's what seems to be the most useful all around. When chasing someone who bolts, you don't want to have to take the time to switch from a strobe mode to a constant mode. 

A very bright primary, although not as effectively disorienting as a strobing light of the same intensity can still do a decent job of temporarily blinding someone/impairing their vision if need be, which is also why I find lights in the 20,000-30,000 cd range desirable. They're more effective at impairing someone's vision than a lower candela light, even if they aren't strobing.

Like Ken, I tend to prefer a multi mode light that allows me to quickly switch modes one-handed and potentially pre-select a mode easily. It has to have quick/immediate access to Maximum and strobe from whatever mode it's in.


Max


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## Bullzeyebill

Grizzlyb said:


> He allmost killed the thread twice, he will keep trying untill he has his result.



This thread is being closely monitored for any CPF Rule and policy infractions, including trolling. This is the longest running thread, ever, regarding the use of flashlight strobe. Usually this topic brings out the worst in people and moderators and administrators have to step in and close them. This one is doing very well.

Bill


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## KITROBASKIN

This is an outstanding discussion and all the principal contributors should be commended for their input. Thanks so much to Grizzlyb for initiating this thread.


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## hikingman

This continues to be a great thread...

Max,

Your comment about UI on flashlights, I tend to agree. Besides the big new Fenix lights that have come out recently, I like the new Eagletac rechargeable series too and own the GX and MX models. By twisting the head, one can press the button and have one of 4 levels of output (highest is 2,200 lumens, 53K candelas on the MX) and even if currently set for a lower mode, the high (turbo) is accessible by merely pressing/holding the button, and strobe by double clicking/holding the button. To me this is very flexible and as long as my finger is on or in reach of that single button, you could have either low or high output or strobe nearly instantly.

Dave


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## Grizzlyb

Dave D said:


> From my understanding of this thread the 'tactical' flashlight that Grizzlyb and his colleagues have developed is for an identifiable group of people (the Dutch Police) and has been developed with the tactical knowledge and limitations of that group in mind, hence the K.I.S.S. approach. I'm sure that it would be very suitable for the majority of European Police Officers.
> 
> I don't believe that Grizzlyb is saying that this is the ultimate TACTICAL light for LEO's for every eventuality.
> 
> With body armour, radios, batons, pepper spray, handcuffs and flashlights etc (I didn't include firearm as I'm in the UK) that we have to carry it is better to have a multipurpose flashlight that can be used in specific tactical situations than to have to carry a range of suitable flashlights for every eventuality.



Thanks Dave,

K.I.S.S. 100% how we work and train.
You explained my words better then I can. Obviously language can still be the cause of some misunderstanding.
Even for me, speaking English reasonably well, I need to many words to express what I mean.
You guys sometime use 10 words to say the same as I do in 200 words.

We do train tactical lights for special squads on the shooting range.
All these special groups together are less than 1% of the total police force, and even for them these situations are very rear.
In my case, in all my years in these special groups I never had to shoot while holding a light, and none of my group had to.
But to be safe, we keep training with lights, just in case we encounter a situation like that. Also in the standard training of students there still is a training for shooting situations in the dark. Even though, as far as we can go back in the records, not 1 incident was found using a light while shooting, in Amsterdam.

What we do have, are more and more LEO's every year without guns. (cheaper to train and more eyes on the street)
Just like the colleagues in the UK, those LEO's have pepper spray, baton, handcuffs but nothing more then those weapons.
They are very happy with this new development with Tactical Lights with Strobe. Specially in low light situations it is a very useful small "personal" tool, filling a gap in there equipment.

At the moment we are also looking for replacements for the old (obsolete) Maglites. Totally outdated and can't keep up with new developments.
A new range of rechargeable lights are being tested as we speak. All in the 2500lm+ range and 1.5pounds+ weight class.
But those will have a place in the police station and some patrol cars. 
Different purpose, meant for searching large area's. Pre arranged and coordinated situations.

EDIT.
And, there is some new thinking about the rule: only 1 rear switch on a tactical light. 
We still want the setup of only 1 switch on the rear with instant strobe, but, if technical possible there could be room for a side/turn switch to open other modes. 
That should not interfere with (our) tactical requirements. 
So LEO's CAN start up in other modes, with a side press, or turn head switch (looking for it in the dark can be a hinder, and still use 1 hand) 
but when the need arises, still use the tactical momentary switch on the rear. 
That is the beauty of this forum. So many knowledge and experiences give us extra inside.

Thanks for helping us guys.


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## bietjiedof

KITROBASKIN said:


> This is an outstanding discussion and all the principal contributors should be commended for their input. Thanks so much to Grizzlyb for initiating this thread.


+ 1 :thumbsup:
Particularly impressed by the fact that the main proponents can present different strongly held views, without becoming personal. Wouldn't it be great if internet discussion was always like this? Thanks, too, to the mods for keeping the troll(s) at bay.


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## Xacto

KITROBASKIN said:


> This is an outstanding discussion and all the principal contributors should be commended for their input. Thanks so much to Grizzlyb for initiating this thread.




I too want to chime in on how great this discussion is and especially the comparison between US und Dutch /western european police officers and their work mindset should be commended since in my opinion is can explain quite a few things. 

Cheers
Thorsten


----------



## Grizzlyb

bluemax_1 said:


> Grizzlyb,
> 
> I think, because of the different approaches and mentalities of the LEO's and the suspects, there are far more 'rabbits' here (suspects who immediately bolt or run away), than guys who might physically attack an LEO with bare hands.
> Max



Thanks for explaining this part so clearly Max. That explains a lot to us. 
We give Police combat trainings to our colleagues in Germany every year (European Police training weekend in Berlin). 
There we can observe several methods and weapons the LEO's use in Europe. 
From what we know, most country's in Europe are similar to Holland. 
LEO's in Europe very seldom use guns to solve problems. 99% of aggression is handled by physical force. 
Civilians have little restrained to attack an officer physically. 
So a bloody noose now and then is pretty common. But we always pay back in full . 
I remember some periods in the 70's and 80's, where I had an average of 3 arrest per day, with a max of 7 on 1 day. 
(My son had a record of 9 in 1 day in 2004, so he beats me :thumbsup 

In 75% of these arrests physical force was necessary to keep the suspect under control. So we learned to fight a lot in these days. 
Last decade it seems to slow down a bit, an average of 1 arrest a day with a good fight is enough. (depending on the neighborhood you work, I worked in the Red Light district in Amsterdam, in the 70's and part of the 80's)
Other rural areas have less fights. And no gun incidents at all. 
We are lucky that shootings are so rear. 
But that can change in the future, with all the guns spreading over Europe from old Soviet states. 

Mentality of the main group of citizens, will be one of physical confrontation.


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## bluemax_1

Yes, it seems the mentalities of both the LEO's and civilians are somewhat different between the US and Europe. Folks here know that endangering/attacking an LEO here is a very dangerous thing to do (not that there aren't some people stupid enough to still try anyway).

BTW, from some of the things you've mentioned, like working in Amsterdam's red light district, having been on the force for quite some time, and your age etc., I was wondering if you've ever been in any English language documentaries? I thought your voice sounded kind of familiar when I watched the YouTube video. I vaguely recall having seen something years ago where they interviewed an older, tough looking gentleman talking (in English) about some of the scuffles he had in Amsterdam's red light district. Can't recall what show/documentary it was though.


Max


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## bluemax_1

Dbl post


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## bluemax_1

hikingman said:


> This continues to be a great thread...
> 
> Max,
> 
> Your comment about UI on flashlights, I tend to agree. Besides the big new Fenix lights that have come out recently, I like the new Eagletac rechargeable series too and own the GX and MX models. By twisting the head, one can press the button and have one of 4 levels of output (highest is 2,200 lumens, 53K candelas on the MX) and even if currently set for a lower mode, the high (turbo) is accessible by merely pressing/holding the button, and strobe by double clicking/holding the button. To me this is very flexible and as long as my finger is on or in reach of that single button, you could have either low or high output or strobe nearly instantly.
> 
> Dave


Missed this post, but yes, those new GX/MX models look really good. Similar size and feel for folks used to the Streamlight Stinger and 2-cell MagLite and I really like the interface of straight to Maximum from any level by pressing the button, or straight to strobe with a double press, plus the ability to pre-select modes, and even recharging capability.

The design of the holster works well too. This is the ONLY time I would accept bezel up carry, i.e. with a light where all the buttons and controls are on the head. The holster design also means that the same holster works for folks needing to use the filter attachments. Not sure about instinctively finding the button quickly with the lights that have a protruding charge port opposite the switch, but this can be remedied by always placing the light back in the holster with the button in the same orientation.

If I were considering lights this size, they would be top contenders.


Max


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## texas cop

I would prefer a 3-mode flashlight with only a single tail button. It starts at strobe then goes from high to low without memory. This gives instant tactical blinding strobe. I typically change modes by pressing the lens against my pants while scrolling to the other modes. This allows me to get the mode I want without mode flashing like a Christmas tree. I do think that strobe first is the way to go without any extra knobs/switches or levers. Its K.I.S.S. A few manufacturers have 1 mode only unless you loosen the head for others, nice but not quite what I prefer.


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## Grizzlyb

texas cop said:


> I would prefer a 3-mode flashlight with only a single tail button. It starts at strobe then goes from high to low without memory. This gives instant tactical blinding strobe. I typically change modes by pressing the lens against my pants while scrolling to the other modes. This allows me to get the mode I want without mode flashing like a Christmas tree. I do think that strobe first is the way to go without any extra knobs/switches or levers. Its K.I.S.S. A few manufacturers have 1 mode only unless you loosen the head for others, nice but not quite what I prefer.



Thats exactly what we ended up with, after 5 years of development,
Should have tipt us 4 years ago, Your ahead of your time. 




bluemax_1 said:


> BTW, from some of the things you've mentioned, like working in Amsterdam's red light district, having been on the force for quite some time, and your age etc., I was wondering if you've ever been in any English language documentaries? I thought your voice sounded kind of familiar when I watched the YouTube video. I vaguely recall having seen something years ago where they interviewed an older, tough looking gentleman talking (in English) about some of the scuffles he had in Amsterdam's red light district. Can't recall what show/documentary it was though.
> Max



I have been seen on several TV programs in Holland and some International interviews.
They followed our department for a year with camera's on the job.
But thats about 15 years back. So it could be? There are probably many more that did stuff like that.


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## texas cop

We still have a difference in setups on the streets between our countries. I prefer the XM-L's for the flood I want due to working solo. Strobe gives me the edge of being able to see while others can't and are trying to recover night vision even when back into drivers license reading mode. From low its a click back to strobe. I think the USA criminal has the understanding that you will get tased, sprayed, clubbed, shot or worse if he tries to hurt me. I have little to fear from the armed citizen they are for the most part peaceful, helpful and law abiding. I hope that the European subject learns to respect the police a little more we are not punching bags for their dislike of national policy. Very few officer I know get into real physical altercation on anything more than monthly.


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## bluemax_1

texas cop said:


> We still have a difference in setups on the streets between our countries. I prefer the XM-L's for the flood I want due to working solo. Strobe gives me the edge of being able to see while others can't and are trying to recover night vision even when back into drivers license reading mode. From low its a click back to strobe. I think the USA criminal has the understanding that you will get tased, sprayed, clubbed, shot or worse if he tries to hurt me. I have little to fear from the armed citizen they are for the most part peaceful, helpful and law abiding. I hope that the European subject learns to respect the police a little more we are not punching bags for their dislike of national policy. Very few officer I know get into real physical altercation on anything more than monthly.



Yep, big difference in 'resisting arrest' vs 'assaulting a police officer'. The first may not be that uncommon as any flight or struggling falls in that category. The second is apparently a lot more common in Europe than it is in the US.


Max


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## Grizzlyb

bluemax_1 said:


> Yep, big difference in 'resisting arrest' vs 'assaulting a police officer'. The first may not be that uncommon as any flight or struggling falls in that category. The second is apparently a lot more common in Europe than it is in the US.
> Max



Once I went to court, to see what would happen with a suspect that gave the arresting officers a lot of injuries. 
He had first attacked a bus driver, then a bank manager, and an other female bank employee. When the police came, 1 male + 1 female, he attacked them too. Kicked the female officer to the ground bloodied the noose of the male officer. When I arrived at the scene the fight was still on. So I took care of the blood flow to his brain for a few seconds, which put him out long enough to handcuff him. 
He was prosecuted for injuring the bus driver, the bank manager, the bank employee. . . . . . . but the considerable injuries of the 2 officers where "by words of the Dutch court" part of the job, occupational hazard. 
Now you possibly understand better, why we always try to keep injury as little as possible, and try to develop simple things to get tactical advantages in this kind of combat.


----------



## bluemax_1

Grizzlyb said:


> Once I went to court, to see what would happen with a suspect that gave the arresting officers a lot of injuries.
> He had first attacked a bus driver, then a bank manager, and an other female bank employee. When the police came, 1 male + 1 female, he attacked them too. Kicked the female officer to the ground bloodied the noose of the male officer. When I arrived at the scene the fight was still on. So I took care of the blood flow to his brain for a few seconds, which put him out long enough to handcuff him.
> He was prosecuted for injuring the bus driver, the bank manager, the bank employee. . . . . . . but the considerable injuries of the 2 officers where "by words of the Dutch court" part of the job, occupational hazard.
> Now you possibly understand better, why we always try to keep injury as little as possible, and try to develop simple things to get tactical advantages in this kind of combat.



Wow... that is some BS right there. No wonder you guys have to train for hand-to-hand so extensively. Sure, hand-to-hand training is important here. You never know when you might need it, but your laws there don't seem to do much to deter/discourage people from attacking/assaulting the LEO's. So in the case, you mentioned, the person was prosecuted for assaulting all the civilians BUT not the officers? So what happens if for instance, someone is being a drunken moron at a bar. He's had a few drinks and is being an *** but so far, he hasn't assaulted anyone yet. They call the police to have him escorted from the bar and when the LEO's show up, he decides to show how much of a tough guy he is and assaults the LEO's and bloodies an LEO's nose? No civilians or anyone else was assaulted or injured, just an LEO. How long does he end up in jail for on average? It sounds like a scenario like that might not be that uncommon there?

Over here, assaulting a police officer (especially if it causes any injury) is a felony with possible jail time of up to 10 years on conviction (varies by state, charges etc.). If someone attempts to resist arrest (say they try to swing their arms while being handcuffed) and happens to hit one of the LEO's, they can still be charged with APO (Assault on a Police Officer). If they intentionally attempt to harm (or succeed in harming) an LEO, they're in serious trouble.


Max


----------



## Grizzlyb

bluemax_1 said:


> So in the case, you mentioned, the person was prosecuted for assaulting all the civilians BUT not the officers? So what happens if for instance, someone is being a drunken moron at a bar. He's had a few drinks and is being an *** but so far, he hasn't assaulted anyone yet. They call the police to have him escorted from the bar and when the LEO's show up, he decides to show how much of a tough guy he is and assaults the LEO's and bloodies an LEO's nose? No civilians or anyone else was assaulted or injured, just an LEO. How long does he end up in jail for on average? It sounds like a scenario like that might not be that uncommon there?
> Max



Scenario's like that are very common.
I was talking about an incident several years ago. Slowly politics are changing.

When you attack an Fireman/medic or police officer, you CAN get up to 1/3 extra punishment.
But IRL that seldom happens. 
Bloody noses and those sort of injuries, are still seen by many judges as a thing that comes with the job.
Last few years, some Police precincts had their own lawyers that sued the suspects for damage done to LEO's.
That became more and more a standard procedure, while the criminal court did little to nothing.

The new minister of police affairs is an ex prosecutor and well known hard liner and crime fighter. He is fighting to make it better for the LEO's.
So, we have good hope things are changing for the better.

Like a medic or a fire fighter, most officers never signed up to get molested. 
I was 17 when they told me it was a nice job where I could help people to live free and safe of criminals.
At that age, I never knew or took serious, that I would be shot and stabt a few years later. 
And that fighting was done on a dayly base.

Sorry, for the detour, but it may have helpt a little to give inside why we train, and use our equipment, the way we do.

Back to Tactical lights


----------



## texas cop

Still a bit detoured. Our judges, prosecutors, and politicians understand that we are all extensions of the government. Hit one and you hit all. If any of the above get threatened we protect them, which one of them wants to hear from the nice policeman "Sir, that's part of your job." 

Now onto your English it's ed not t in Stabbed and helped. Dayly is daily. My mother was an English teacher I had to go through this so should you all. I'm still blessed or cursed with run on sentences. I know English is not your native tongue, but you seem to be doing better than most who claim English as their only language.


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## Grizzlyb

Hi Texas Cop,

I said it before and say it again, I wouldn't have mind to be borne in the USA :thumbsup:
Been over there 3 times and was sad to leave every time.
Thanks for the help, much appreciated.


----------



## Bullzeyebill

texas cop said:


> Still a bit detoured.



Best we get back to the main topic, the tactical use of Strobe.

Bill


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## KITROBASKIN

Thanks go to the moderator. Your time spent on this thread is deserving of respect and appreciation and you are doing a great job we can all agree. The recent digressions have been very, very interesting. No doubt I am not the only one who feels this way. The advertisers (Thank you Unique Titanium) on this forum very likely know they are a part of a conversation worth having and deserve our business. (Forum wide, but in particular, this thread)


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## hikingman

Back in my comment #246, I mentioned a new light I had, the Eagletac MX25L2 (2200 lumens, 57,000cd's) and it has 2 "sets" of light configurations, regular with 4 brightness levels, and a tactical with 2 brightness levels and 2 strobes. These 4 are accessed by twisting the head. As a civilian walker, I don't like a holster and just prefer to hold my light(s). So for me with this light set in the tactical configuration and twisted to be strobe ready, a mere press of the button and we have strobe (always). I'm holding another very small light in the other hand or have my headlamp on, so I can see an area around me to walk with. In this situation I feel I am in a good situation to react to things around me that may become dangerous.

Part of my problem I have with Grizzlyb's approach, is that I grew up with flashlights that had buttons or switches on the side. Try as I may, I just can't come to grips with buttons at the end. They never work for me.

Dave


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## scottyhazzard

I work in a high stress environment that is commonly accentuated by moments or peaks of adrenaline/ stress and emotionally charged events. I like to say to the patients that I see people here in the ER on what usually is the worst day of their life. My job is to see past the emotion of incredible loss/ fear and pain while I take care of the patient and calm them and their families. The words I use are carefully selected, my para-language (body language, tone, cadence of speach) is carefully chosen all to communicate confidence, care and acceptance. This is enhanced when a patient or one of their visitors escalates to become or threatens violence. 

The first option we have is to de-escalate the agitated or irate person. Trying to calm the person, my hands and if at all possible my palms are visible, I can't do my job if I am perceived as intimidating or threatening. We do our level best to avoid grappling with or taking down patients in the ER. Someone is going to get hurt. (First do no harm) Almost every ER is at some point in the day over run or on the verge of being over run. Therefore if the nurse is hurt no one will take that nurses place for hours and the patients that that nurse was caring for will have to be absorbed by the rest of the staff and now the wait to be seen and treated just got longer for our patients. 

So what why all the build-up? There is the meat behind why the KISS principle applies to me in my environment and why a rear button is useful. When the patient lunges I leap back shouting no, raising my left hand as shield and my right hand goes to the light in my waistband. Now in the Defensive Bow position I click the light on strobe about shoulder/neck high and make ready to grab the wrist of the hand the patient uses to shield his eyes. 

If I have the light out to select a mode as I'm negotiating with the patient, my attention will be devided and I will be perceived as uninterested or duplicitous by the patient. This will erode confidence in me by the patient and weaken our therapeutic relationship, taking another step toward an adversarial relationship that will not help the patient. 

I have a brighter non strobe light that has a magnetic selector ring and I have practiced drawing it to use the same way. (People don't rise to the occasion but fall back to most recent training-Theory) but the light has turned on in my pocket and been dead when I have gone to use it (non-tactically) it was dead. So I have gone back to the light with the clicky, bolstered by the data provided by Grizzlyb. 

The light is a tool. The right tool for the right job isn't always the same tool for different jobs. I am not emotionally attached to one format or another. I have been assaulted several times. The last time the patient was able to wrap his hands in my scrubs as he gel my throat such that I could not access his thumbs and striking down on his elbows only brought our bodies together as his hands were anchored in my scrub top. I could not yell as I couldn't breath. I was able to push him backward and the sound of his body and head hitting the wall brought attention and then others came to see what was going on and saved me. I am emotionally attached to not let that happen again. So if I can get a small powerful light to bear on the patient in one move and save me without harm to the patient, the action is going to have to be simple reliable and consistent. Like a rear clickie. Also I am not above being emotionally compromised when one of my patients dies, child or senile. It's different each and every time. So I might be emotionally compromised when one patient dies but one of my other patients loses control so the the light needs to be simple in operation. 

P.S. I always thought KISS stood for Keep It Simple Scotty.


----------



## kaichu dento

hikingman said:


> Part of my problem I have with Grizzlyb's approach, is that I grew up with flashlights that had buttons or switches on the side. Try as I may, I just can't come to grips with buttons at the end. They never work for me.


That's fine, as his study wasn't supposed to be addressing all users, but rather focused on law enforcement, and as such, non-applicable for individuals such as yourself who have essentially 'trained' yourself in your preferred UI and if you have a method that works for you already, changing would probably be inadvisable at this point.


----------



## bluemax_1

hikingman said:


> Back in my comment #246, I mentioned a new light I had, the Eagletac MX25L2 (2200 lumens, 57,000cd's) and it has 2 "sets" of light configurations, regular with 4 brightness levels, and a tactical with 2 brightness levels and 2 strobes. These 4 are accessed by twisting the head. As a civilian walker, I don't like a holster and just prefer to hold my light(s). So for me with this light set in the tactical configuration and twisted to be strobe ready, a mere press of the button and we have strobe (always). I'm holding another very small light in the other hand or have my headlamp on, so I can see an area around me to walk with. In this situation I feel I am in a good situation to react to things around me that may become dangerous.
> 
> Part of my problem I have with Grizzlyb's approach, is that I grew up with flashlights that had buttons or switches on the side. Try as I may, I just can't come to grips with buttons at the end. They never work for me.
> 
> Dave





kaichu dento said:


> That's fine, as his study wasn't supposed to be addressing all users, but rather focused on law enforcement, and as such, non-applicable for individuals such as yourself who have essentially 'trained' yourself in your preferred UI and if you have a method that works for you already, changing would probably be inadvisable at this point.


In addition, there's a big difference between having the light already in your hand with your finger (thumb) on the trigger (button). In that situation, you've 'got the drop'. The reason for Grizzlyb's (as well as mine and many others) preference for a simple tailswitch is for rapid deployment from the holster. Without looking at the light, you can reach for it in the holster, grab it, mash your thumb on the end sticking up which is very quick and easy to find, and deploy the light.

With a side switch light in the holster, you might or might not place your thumb on the side switch the first time you grab it, and if you don't, you're either fumbling to find it, or taking your eyes off the threat to find it.

Hikingman, in your case you generally always have the light already out and in hand, so as kaichu dento stated, whatever you're most comfortable with is optimal.


Max


----------



## hikingman

bluemax_1 said:


> Hikingman, in your case you generally always have the light already out and in hand, so as kaichu dento stated, whatever you're most comfortable with is optimal.
> 
> 
> Max



I totally understand and agree that you good folks can't be carrying a light like I do and I'm also walking mostly where there is no trouble to start with, so I'm not holding it due to that. But if trouble arrived, my thumb would be in the right place. Funny, if I may add, that I like swinging a big light about me for arm exercise (it's turned off), and was doing so with my RC40 last night. I created a small lanyard for it that I can use to help keep hold of the light better. So sometimes I carry another light so I can use the two like weights. I have a DEFT-X on order. If I carried it and RC40 for fun, I'd have over one million candelas ready to strobe:devil:


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## Bullzeyebill

Let's keep this on topic, which is a police study of tactical use of strobe, and not carry it down to a civilian's use of flashlights, particularly considering flashlights "like weights". Threads are always closed when the emphasis is that flashlights are considered as blunt instruments to be used defensively or offensively. There are other forums on the web where that can be discussed.

Bill


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## Grizzlyb

Bullzeyebill said:


> Let's keep this on topic, which is a police study of tactical use of strobe, and not carry it down to a civilian's use of flashlights, particularly considering flashlights "like weights". Threads are always closed when the emphasis is that flashlights are considered as blunt instruments to be used defensively or offensively. There are other forums on the web where that can be discussed.
> 
> Bill



Thanks Bill,
All non topic reply's can be deleted from this thread, it keeps it more ease to read, and better to follow for info.
Please friends, as Bill says, keep it to the point.

We did some new test today with a light fitted with the new XP-G2 emitter in stead of the XPG-R5 we used before. 
We dialed it in at 18Hz Strobe. Beside the big increase of Lux, we noticed a big difference in color to. 
Tonight we will try to do some more testing and make some video shots of it. 

Anyone have tips for making a 18Hz to 20Hz strobe visible on camera? (25 frames p.s.)
It always comes out as a very slow 1Hz strobe on our camera. Sony HXR NX30e


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## bluemax_1

Grizzlyb said:


> Thanks Bill,
> All non topic reply's can be deleted from this thread, it keeps it more ease to read, and better to follow for info.
> Please friends, as Bill says, keep it to the point.
> 
> We did some new test today with a light fitted with the new XP-G2 emitter in stead of the XPG-R5 we used before.
> We dialed it in at 18Hz Strobe. Beside the big increase of Lux, we noticed a big difference in color to.
> Tonight we will try to do some more testing and make some video shots of it.
> 
> Anyone have tips for making a 18Hz to 20Hz strobe visible on camera? (25 frames p.s.)
> It always comes out as a very slow 1Hz strobe on our camera. Sony HXR NX30e


Can you switch the video camera to 50Hz/fps? Europe still uses PAL 50Hz right? If there's an NTSC/60i mode (60 interlaced fps) or 30 progressive fps, that might be better.

BTW, how does the beam of the Predator compare to the Eden TL? I found the 5-degree hotspot and 40-degree beam pretty narrow. A little harder to aim quickly at someone's eyes. I prefer the ~7-degree hotspot and 58-degree spill in the Eagletac G25C2-mkII preferable. The Predator does have a very intense hotspot though, several times the intensity of the Eden TL (nearly 30,000 cd), right in what I consider the 'sweetspot' in the 20,000-30,000 cd range.


Max


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## kaichu dento

nargalzius said:


> Now notice how no one will debate this fact. Nobody (at least no one who is _not_ naive) is going to argue _"well an EDC should be small, so your knife should ONLY be a gentleman's folder, your light should ONLY be of a certain size,"_ etc.) An EDC object is what the user simply decides to be the object they can't leave home without.


With the thrust of the thread being 'Police Study of tactical use of Strobe', and not 'What is a Tactical Light', there's no need to derail the conversation into arguing the terminology except in a new thread dedicated to the subject.


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## Bullzeyebill

Grizzlyb said:


> Thanks Bill,
> All non topic reply's can be deleted from this thread, it keeps it more ease to read, and better to follow for info.
> Please friends, as Bill says, keep it to the point.





kaichu dento said:


> With the thrust of the thread being 'Police Study of tactical use of Strobe', and not 'What is a Tactical Light', there's no need to derail the conversation into arguing the terminology except in a new thread dedicated to the subject.



Agreed. Two OT posts removed.

Bill


----------



## texas cop

Nice to see an upgrade in Led's have you considered trying out some TIR lenses?


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## Grizzlyb

texas cop said:


> Nice to see an upgrade in Led's have you considered trying out some TIR lenses?



Yes,
But TIR and Aspherical lenses will have a higher price-range. To outfit 50.000 LEO's that will be costly.
And Aspherical lenses give to little spill to be safe. We will miss a lot of info on the movements of the suspect.
It is very critical, not to have to much, and not to have to little spill, AND how intense (or not) the spill is.

At a working distance of 3 meters, the hotspot should have a diameter of about 25cm, and at least 750 Lux at the outer rim.
From about 75 centimeter of the the hotspot to the outer side of the "spill ring" there should be a max of 75lux and a min. of 5lux., going to max. 1 lux at 1,75 meters form the center.
So roughly a man size person is blinded in the center, and should be covert from head to toe by enough light to notice all movements.
Sounds logical?

I am going on a vacation for a few weeks (tour along the Danube) and will post infrequently.
The work around our new King and Queen took a lot of work last weeks, and I am glad to get out for a while.
ciao friends,


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## ROB21

Since training varies widely, I just thought I'd mention that we were also trained to use STROBE mode, in addition to turning your light on/off, during building searches and/or tactical entries in our academy. Walking around in a building with your flashlight turned ON the whole time just tells the bad guy where to find you at all times. By turning your light ON and OFF as you conduct your search, you make it harder for someone to lock onto your position. A light that strobes can enhance this effect, but lights that stay constantly ON in strobe mode (cough - Streamlight Stingers) are also useless during searches because you would still be a constant beacon, and nobody wants to walk around clicking their switches 1,000 times during their search either. Therefore, having a light that can strobe in momentary is the best solution.


----------



## GTi474

All I know is, boot the door, yell "Police-search warrant!" Apply strobe on weapon mounted light to perps face and it just flat works... 
I am a veteran LEO, Tac team member, officer safety and defensive tactics instructor. In Krav Maga we call it the OODA loop (observe, orient, decide and act.) Before strobes became mainstream we instructed a quick flash to the eyes with the duty light, but the strobe made it a continued interruption. I personally think second to a flash-bang it is a great development and tool for law enforcement. A lot of situations flash-bangs aren't permissable anyway... meth labs (ask me how I know) places with the feeble or very young, etc... Strobes are non-invasive and they work as far as I am concerned... 
My $.02... take it or leave it... 

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


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## Patriot

bluemax_1 said:


> ... or 30 progressive fps, that might be better.




I agree that 30fps progressive seems to give decent results overall. 

To Grizzly, I would test every available frame rate that your camera/s is capable of. As you suggested, one frame rate might work perfect at 18Hz and give you fits at 20Hz.

Great to have all of the data that's accumulating in this thread. I've been quietly reading and enjoying. Thanks for all of your hard work!


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## Grizzlyb

Thanks for the $.02 GTi474,
Good to hear from a colleague veteran LEO (and Krav Maga enthusiast) .(And please don't tell me about the flash-bangs/meth lab combo ) *big grinn*

And ROB21
As with what GTi said, We totally agree on this.

At the moment most LEO's are on summer vacation and we have some time on our hands.
We are thinking about a way to put Tactical Strobes onto Riot Shields.
2 Units already work with Lights (no strobes yet) on their shields.
Arrest Squads and K9 Units.

Our Dog Squad, (K9 Unit) is also specially trained to arrest hostile suspects in close quarters.(Patients that really go mental on the staff/doctor, or arrested people that go berserk in the prison cell room)
They leave the dogs in the car and take out the shields, go in with a team of 5 or 3 officers (what ever is available)

This is what they came up with lately, on 2 different Shield types

Front:






Back:





It is a small Delrin box with 2 switches.
1 switch for on/off and 1 switch for strobe. The XML LED works on 2 x 18650 cells.
It can be programmed in Strobe frequency, and gives a red led signal when below 25% power.
Its just prototypes and will be developed further. It easy slides in and locks into place.

Those are not our Riot Shields thou,
Dutch Police uses these Shields, based on rotan with a plastic cover.






Its light and flexible and won't break. (it has its advantages and disadvantages)
We are playing with the idea to fit 1 or more Strobe lights on the front of these shields. (protected with clear lexan)
The Strobes should be able to be switched on/off individual and, if possible, centrally by a commander for the complete squad with 1 switch.

What would it be like, to look into a stream of strobes, each with over 500 lumens illuminating the dark....
Squad is 40 . . .x 500 = 20.000 Lumen

















Has it been done before? We don't know..


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## kj2

You really don't wanna mess with cops these days


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## Grizzlyb

kj2 said:


> You really don't wanna mess with cops these days



Yeah,:thinking: some can get horrible ideas when they start thinking. . . . .


----------



## jaycyu

lol, that's an amazing idea.
As a flashaholic, I would love to come down to Amsterdam and join a riot with a front row seat to experience a score of 30k lux strobe.
And maybe I can take home a modded riot shield as an anticipation prize.


----------



## kj2

Grizzlyb said:


> Yeah,:thinking: some can get horrible ideas when they start thinking. . . . .


Well, mostly riot police are at places where people aren't thinking at all


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## Dave D

Grizzlyb said:


> Yeah,:thinking: some can get horrible ideas when they start thinking. . . . .



Some of us could take offence at that!! :thinking:

That shield with the flashlight attached just needs a tazer/flashlight combo! :thumbsup:

Hope you had a good vacation, only 7 weeks and I'll be on permanent vacation! :twothumbs


----------



## Grizzlyb

Dave D said:


> Hope you had a good vacation, only 7 weeks and I'll be on permanent vacation! :twothumbs



Thanks mate, vacation was great. 
Only 7 weeks. . .You're a lucky guy . 
Damn, after 42 years on the force I really look forward to do the same, but it seems that I will have to wait an other 7 YEARS.
With retirement starting at 67, Dutch Police is probably the oldest force in the world. (when we get that old)

And btw, I am the one that makes a habit of thinking :tinfoil: and usually come up with the most horrible stuff
The rest just live out their normal boring lives.


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## MaxStatic

What a fantastic read on the physiology behind strobe employment. My hat's off to your gentlemen!


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## hanst

Great thread...

FWIW I was working in a closed psych ward with violent/dangerous patients in the late 80's and early 90's. Usually during the night shift we would be only 2 techs for 15 patients, and it sometimes got pretty rough. I started using a Surefire 6P as a tactical tool, sometimes "strobing" the patients using a fast thumb twitch before taking them down. This was purely unscientific and totally intuitive, I am very impressed to see how much serious research is now available.

Some nurses amusingly thought it was "violent" and "too militaristic", I guess they felt better when we went in and someone would get slammed in a wall and get hurt, or we'd use PPCT techniques including loud verbal commands and wake up the whole unit  Either that or we'd end up gathering the emergency response team and the flurry of activity would also wake up and scare everyone, would sometimes take us hours of damage control after to quiet down the unit.

Now, seeing the very conclusive results some of my more enlightened colleagues started getting whatever tactical flashlights we could get back then, and we practiced underground "strobing". It was remarkable to see how well it would incapacitate even violently paranoid psychotic people enough we could fairly gently restrain them at much lesser risk to everyone.

HT


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## Mattiasdd

Hello,

thank you for sharing this very interesting study.

I just think it's not really professional, when you have to take out your light to control documents, it always comes on in strobe.

You could use a forward clicky tail switch which can only activates the strobe mode. 
And another 'hidden' electronic side switch (like the Olight M20SX) to activate hi/med/low.

In stressful situations LEOs will take it out and press the tail switch immediately.
In other non stressful situations, u have the time to 'search' the side switch.


Just an idea


----------



## Grizzlyb

Mattiasdd said:


> Hello,
> 
> thank you for sharing this very interesting study.
> 
> I just think it's not really professional, when you have to take out your light to control documents, it always comes on in strobe.
> 
> You could use a forward clicky tail switch which can only activates the strobe mode.
> And another 'hidden' electronic side switch (like the Olight M20SX) to activate hi/med/low.
> 
> In stressful situations LEOs will take it out and press the tail switch immediately.
> In other non stressful situations, u have the time to 'search' the side switch.
> 
> 
> Just an idea



And not a bad Idea,





We also worked with it , but it has some drawbacks.

Look at these photo's:







The lady looks aggressive enough. . . but look at her weapon hand.
When the opponent is not effected (fast enough) and comes closer, she can't use that hand as a fist.
That is not very tactical. This is the way a lady uses a hairspray, not going into a fight. She'll at the least brake some fingers, when she has to punch.


Now look at this lady:






She does not appear to be that aggressive, but don't let it fool you, her weapon hand is still instantly usable as a fist.
This "pepperspray" hand position is trained by officers in Holland for the last 12 years. And proven very useful.

Same goes for every other item you have in your hand.
When possible, use it as a tactical tool all the time.

Look at these photo's I took.







When a light has a side switch, automatically you will hold your light like this. When suddenly attacked, you will not be able to use that hand in self defence. Also probably brake fingers when you use that hand in a reflex. (and how do you want to use your tail switch now? ) 
You may THINK it is not really professional, but in reality the REAL professional user will think more tactical and less practical. 

This is the way we hold our lights. 






We CAN use it at low, medium and high while searching throu stuff, but when the S.H.T.F. . . .
get the picture? 

When You take out our light to control documents, it will come on in strobe. 
Simply hold the front end of your light to your body and press the tailswitch for 1.5 sec and it will switch to High, med or low. What ever you need at the moment. (nobody will know or realize that you are switching your light to an other mode. No one bothers, and after a few times you do it automatically.) 
Why would that not be professional? A real professional is always also a *Tactician *24/7


But, we still are researching this idea of a different way of switching on and of other modes.
Some of our research lights have side witches and "head turn" switches.
At the moment we have good results with a special developed light. 
Side switches are hard to find in the dark, but it is easy to find a "head turn switch" and turn it to an other mode while still holding the light tactical.


----------



## Chevy-SS

Grizzlyb said:


> ......... This is the way we hold our lights.
> 
> We CAN use it at low, medium and high while searching throu stuff, but when the S.H.T.F. . . . get the picture?
> 
> .... A real professional is always also a *Tactician *24/7 ........






Terrific post, very useful info and great pics too. Thanks very much :thumbsup:

-


----------



## chaparral

Many years ago (early 1990s) I used to train at an indoor paintball facility and at least once a week the proprietor would annoy the living hell out of us by turning off the main lights, blasting Vagner's "Die Valkure" and turning on a couple of Xenon strobes at I'm guessing maybe 4Hz. All of us would just freeze until this nonsense stopped but we wouldn't take our eyes off the target nor our fingers off the trigger or trigger guard. Those who kept moving in a careless fashion would get shot anyway in spite of the strobing and music. Thinking back, I guess the strobing made me less willing to take the risks inherent in running to a new position or shooting at a target that could very well be my own team member. The rare occasions where I did move during the strobing I was happy enough not to twist an ankle or land on my knees wrong and positive ID of anything else in that environment was just not possible from my new position until the normal lighting came back on. I tried a small training exercise a couple years ago with a Jetbeam RRT3 that I bought off a CPF'er and the effect just isn't there: it strobes too fast and It's more like working under a fluorescent light with a bad ballast than anything remotely disorienting.


----------



## grinsefalle

When I first noticed this thread, I got interested in the TDL20 flashlight. This seemed to be the ideal flashlight for police duty. After several pm's with Koen (grizzlyb), I ordered this light.
This was about 4 month ago and from this point on I carried the flashlight at work (police officer, plain clothes duty).
In the German Messerforum you can read my report/review of the TDL20 flashlight: REVIEW (german language).

These are my experiences of 4 month of use:
* the TDL is a high quality flashlight! finish, craftmanship, built quality...absolutely no reason to complain
* the 280 lumens are enough for nearly every task, due to the well defined and bright hotspot. The different levels are well spaced.
* The UI is great! If you are in a situation where you need to use the flashlight as an tactical illumination or desorienting tool, you don't need to think about the operation of this tool. If I want to to a traffic check, serch a car or a person or something like that, I have time to switch to a constant light setting. I got used to it and even this action can be done automated, e.g. on the way from my police car to the car I want to check.
* the strobe frequency is just the right one. Until now I got no chance to strobe an opponent, but I tried it myself and other officer wanted to do so, too: the strobe is extremely annoying and is capable of desorienting an oppenent. But because of the high frequency, there is just a little impact on the user of the TDL20, it is almost like using constant light mode. If you want to check a garden or a courtyard, there is no need to switch to constant on - you hardly see the strobe when illuminating greater distances.

My conclusion is this one: 
The TDL is a tactical illumination tool, which can be used as an normal flashlight, too. That is perfect for police use!
Take a look at the other way round: flashlights, which have all the features of the TDL and can be used as tactical tools during high stress situations are very hard to find.

I can only encourage every LEO to test the TDL..

Thanks to Koen for this great thread!

Michael


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## Grizzlyb

chaparral said:


> All of us would just freeze until this nonsense stopped but we wouldn't take our eyes off the target nor our fingers off the trigger or trigger guard.



To me, that remark tells the whole story.
We used to train on the shooting range under the same conditions. Xenon strobelights, and loud noises etc. It is very annoying, and disturbs the vision on the target a little, but thats all.

But this is a complete other situation. 
These strobe lights you mention are general direction lights, more like a very bright light bulb that is flickering fast.
You can´t compare this with the lux that is directed completely in the eyes of the opponent.

With a tactical light you CAN´T see the target, you cant even see the surroundings anymore and it will take some seconds to adjust after you have been hit.
The Lights you revere to affect the opponent as much as your self. That is the opposite from what we do.
Sorry, but this is apples and oranges.
The trick is, not to be blinded yourself but blind and disorient the other guy without having problems yourself.

Think about that lightbulb above your head, high on lumens and very low on lux.
How much lux will actually hit your eye? Very little. It is annoying, but you can see everything in the room.
Try to look in a good tactical light and you wont be able to see anything for a pretty long period.

/ / / /

Hi grinsefalle,

Thanks for the reseach and testing. You and your team are really helping us with data.
In the end our only goal is to make our fellow officers a bit safer.:thumbsup:


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## Bullzeyebill

I am going to sticky this thread. This will be the first "strobe" thread that is worthy of such recognition. The OP has been very professional in his presentation of the tactical use of strobe, and responders, with very few exceptions, have like wise been professional in their responses, and contributions. The thread will continue to be monitored closely for trolling and inappropriate posts, so that it can continue to be a good rescourse for those in law enforcement, and good information for any CPF member.

Bill


----------



## greenlight

Bullzeyebill said:


> I am going to sticky this thread. This will be the first "strobe" thread that is worthy of such recognition.


This is a very important discussion. Good flashlights are ruined with unneeded strobe features and at the same time the people who need the feature can't get the flashlight they want. 

Hopefully, manufacturers will recognize the difference and market their products appropriately.


----------



## Grizzlyb

Hi Bill,

My thanks to you guys who keep this community together.
I feel truly honored to be part of it.

greenlight,
We agree on both parts .


----------



## xZenTigerx

Thank you very much for taking time to share this knowledge. You article is impressive in scope and content and if this is not your native language then KUDOS too you for that also. I have embarked on my own path of understanding the use of strobe and have some concepts to work towards and on. Your information as to policy and a light specd to always start in strobe has opened up further thought for some of my own ideas, really thanks for that. 

May the Strobe be with you! LOL

ps: your response to the poster that challenged your knowledge based upon that one book has placed in STONE for me that you are FOR REAL and this is excellent information to incorporate.


----------



## chaparral

Grizzlyb said:


> But this is a complete other situation.
> These strobe lights you mention are general direction lights, more like a very bright light bulb that is flickering fast.
> You can´t compare this with the lux that is directed completely in the eyes of the opponent.



Correct. We trained in a modified industrial building and the Xenon strobes were mounted to a high ceiling some 3m/10feet above our standing height. The effect was probably more annoying to us than say bounce from one of my lights on strobe mode (TM-11, Zebralight SC600, RRT-3) off a light colored surface such as a painted wall or clean concrete but less than accidentally bouncing the output from my light off a large reflective plate-glass sliding door and into my own eyes (did that exactly once..never again )


----------



## Grizzlyb

chaparral said:


> Correct. We trained in a modified industrial building and the Xenon strobes were mounted to a high ceiling some 3m/10feet above our standing height. The effect was probably more annoying to us than say bounce from one of my lights on strobe mode (TM-11, Zebralight SC600, RRT-3) off a light colored surface such as a painted wall or clean concrete but less than accidentally bouncing the output from my light off a large reflective plate-glass sliding door and into my own eyes (did that exactly once..never again )



Your right,
The ceiling/wall bounce of many modern lights is getting almost to bright for our purpose. 
So we look for a more focused beam and less spill.
Also, those wide beam strobes cover your complete range of vision. 
When your in a room like that for a longer period, like more then a minute, it is know to trigger PSE (Photosensitive epilepsy) with some people (less then 1 in 3000) . 
Espessialy with bright red coloured walls. (some studys poiny in that direction)


----------



## ledmitter_nli

1:54 into the above low light technique video, the instructor says:

"...keeping in mind that, your eye focuses 10-15 times per second. Your eyes go from light to dark, light to dark, all the time. You're adjusting the light up and down. What a strobing light does, is, it forces your eyes to try to do all those things at the same time..."

Not sure if his information is clinically true, but if it is, then a variable 10-15 times per second strobe might jostle someones perception pretty badly.

How many times per second is 20hz?


----------



## bluemax_1

Hz = cycles per second. 20Hz = 20x per second


Max


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## Grizzlyb

[FONT=&quot]Hi Ledmitter,

Broken down to simple language:

At the back of the eye is the Retina. 
It consists of receptors called rods and cones which convert the light energy into electrical signals which are transmitted to the optic nerve. Think of it as the film in a camera. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The retina (rods and cones) transports information via the optic nerve to the brain. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The persistence of vision ( mostly the cones) is around 1/20th of a second. 
So the spokesman in that Youtube film came close. Not 10hz to 15hz, but *20hz*[/FONT][FONT=&quot] is clinically correct .
And 20hz actually is 20 times per sec. 
Our prefered freguency is around 18hz.
The instructor in this video demonstrates the same findings about the effects of strobes that we have experienced in the last 8 years.
Desorientation, hard to judge distance etc.
Keep in mind thou, that technics with tactical lights with firearms is a bit different than the situations we use our lights for.
The basics are very simular. 

Thanks for the video, I lost it and couldn't find it anymore.[/FONT]


----------



## ledmitter_nli

Alas, if 20hz is clinically correct, then that would explain a lot to me as to why the EagleTac TX25C2's Strobe I setting of 9.6hz seems so unbelievably disorienting.

It's like the slower 9.6hz (nearly 10hz) strobe is interleaving the 20hz brainwave signal patterns. Sensory processing activity between the retina and brain become so dissociated from the in-step criss-crossing stimuli that vertigo is effectively induced.

Was also researching the "Bucha Effect", I must say this is all sublimely interesting reading.


----------



## grinsefalle

Just want to add some thoughts about strobe frequency. My experience covers slow strobe flashlights like the supbeam T10 / Thrunite Scorpion (about 10 Hz), medium strobe Gladius Creemator (about 15 Hz) and the fast strobe TDL20 (about 18-20 Hz).
In my opinion there are two aspects to think of: the impact on the opponent and the impact on myself as the flashlight user. 

The Scorpion or T10 have rather slow strobes. These are very annoying - to the opponent and to myself. When using the strobe inside a building (small rooms, white walls...), I got headache because of the strobe reflecting on the walls. If I am outside and want to check a courtyard or some outdoor areas, I have to use the constant light mode to be able to identify threats in the bushes e.g.

Nearly the same is valid for the medium strobe of the Gladius. The effect on the opponent is great, but there is an considerable impact on the user, too.

Using the fast strobe of the TDL is a very different story. Like said in my previous post, the impact on the opponent is still there. I cannot measure or tell you, if the impact is equal or more or less, compared to slower strobes. The big advantage of the 18Hz is, that the affect on me decreases a lot. Using the TDL indoors, I see the strobe reflecting from walls, but here I do not get headache or knocked out. Beeing outside I can do without the constant light mode, because over distance, the 18Hz light really looks like constant light with slight flickering - and I still can see every detail.

Long story short:
In my personal opinion everyone have to consider the impact of strobe light to the user himself. The best strobelight is useless, when it is affecting not only the opponent, but also knocks down myself or the officers besides me.

Michael


----------



## ledmitter_nli

grinsefalle said:


> Using the fast strobe of the TDL is a very different story. Like said in my previous post, the impact on the opponent is still there. I cannot measure or tell you, if the impact is equal or more or less, compared to slower strobes. The big advantage of the 18Hz is, that the affect on me decreases a lot. Using the TDL indoors, I see the strobe reflecting from walls, but here I do not get headache or knocked out. Beeing outside I can do without the constant light mode, because over distance, the 18Hz light really looks like constant light with slight flickering - and I still can see every detail.



With all due respect, isn't this somewhat wishy washy thinking? An effective stimulus is going to effect everyone within its range or it's not. An effective stimulus that effects everyone is going to effect more with increased intensity.

The problem with the slower strobe that's making you get headaches or knocked out isn't the strobe, the problem is it's working.


----------



## bluemax_1

grinsefalle said:


> Just want to add some thoughts about strobe frequency. My experience covers slow strobe flashlights like the supbeam T10 / Thrunite Scorpion (about 10 Hz), medium strobe Gladius Creemator (about 15 Hz) and the fast strobe TDL20 (about 18-20 Hz).
> In my opinion there are two aspects to think of: the impact on the opponent and the impact on myself as the flashlight user.
> 
> The Scorpion or T10 have rather slow strobes. These are very annoying - to the opponent and to myself. When using the strobe inside a building (small rooms, white walls...), I got headache because of the strobe reflecting on the walls. If I am outside and want to check a courtyard or some outdoor areas, I have to use the constant light mode to be able to identify threats in the bushes e.g.
> 
> Nearly the same is valid for the medium strobe of the Gladius. The effect on the opponent is great, but there is an considerable impact on the user, too.
> 
> Using the fast strobe of the TDL is a very different story. Like said in my previous post, the impact on the opponent is still there. I cannot measure or tell you, if the impact is equal or more or less, compared to slower strobes. The big advantage of the 18Hz is, that the affect on me decreases a lot. Using the TDL indoors, I see the strobe reflecting from walls, but here I do not get headache or knocked out. Beeing outside I can do without the constant light mode, because over distance, the 18Hz light really looks like constant light with slight flickering - and I still can see every detail.
> 
> Long story short:
> In my personal opinion everyone have to consider the impact of strobe light to the user himself. The best strobelight is useless, when it is affecting not only the opponent, but also knocks down myself or the officers besides me.
> 
> Michael





ledmitter_nli said:


> With all due respect, isn't this somewhat wishy washy thinking? An effective stimulus is going to effect everyone within its range or it's not. An effective stimulus that effects everyone is going to effect more with increased intensity.
> 
> The problem with the slower strobe that's making you get headaches or knocked out isn't the strobe, the problem is it's working.



In this case, I have to say ledmitter nli is raising a valid point. As he stated, the effect of the strobe will increase with the intensity of the light, and the target encounters the highest intensity. The intensity of the reflection/backsplash is far lower. If you experience side effects from the reflection, the effect of the direct beam should be even greater. Likewise, if the effect of the strobe from the user's perspective is greatly reduced, then you have to wonder about the intensity of the effect on the subject beyond what a constant light source of the same intensity would do.

The other issue is the equipment and the way it's used. Take the difference previously discussed between the typical use and encounters between LEOs in the EU vs USA, and the difference between lights like the TL20 vs the Gladius/Thrunite Scorpion/Supbeam T10. Far greater chance of potential firearm encounters in the USA, apparently not as many hand to hand scuffles (the majority of US LEO hand to hand scuffles are 'resisting arrest', i.e. the perp trying to avoid being handcuffed, vs 'assault on a LEO' where the perp is actively attempting to harm the LEO, which results in a much more serious criminal charge).

As far as the effect on the user in a room with white walls, we don't use the strobe for either white wall hunting, or clearing rooms/buildings. Different equipment for different tactics and situations. With a light like the Gladius and its offshoots, the user can preselect the desired mode for the intended purpose, like a momentary Maximum for room/building clearing (makes you a more difficult target for a potentially armed suspect), strobe for a potentially belligerent suspect, constant on for foot pursuits etc.

Different strokes for different folks and different equipment for different tactics/uses. We're fortunate to have such a wide variety of lights available to US these days to suit our particular preferences and uses, and continued experimentation by all the folks will help push the envelope and produce even more advancements.


Max


----------



## ledmitter_nli

It's like pepper spray. It's an effective agent.

You point and shoot a severely watered down version that's been tailored so any lingering spray doesnt effect you and your squad mates (i.e. reflection). How effective is that watered down version on the subject? The subject is probably reacting more to the wetness.

Some are viewing this reaction to the wetness as being evidence of something more tactically proficient ("it still effects them but not me"), and going nuts with it.


----------



## bluemax_1

ledmitter_nli said:


> It's like pepper spray. It's an effective agent.
> 
> You point and shoot a severely watered down version that's been tailored so any lingering spray doesnt effect you and your squad mates (i.e. reflection). How effective is that watered down version on the subject? The subject is probably reacting more to the wetness.
> 
> Some are viewing this reaction to the wetness as being evidence of something more tactically proficient ("it still effects them but not me"), and going nuts with it.


Although I agreed that you raised a valid point, there are also a couple of other points you apparently continue to ignore despite them being repeated numerous times.

Grizzlyb has mentioned numerous times that they've tested several different frequencies and haven't really found a specific frequency that affects EVERYONE equally. What they DID find was that specific individuals could find that certain frequencies had a much stronger effect on them, but the frequency tended to vary between individuals and there could be some folks who don't notice a significant difference in the intensity of the effect no matter what the frequency.

Although you and I tend to find the near 10Hz frequencies affecting us significantly more (evidently, grinsefalle does too), that doesn't necessarily mean it holds true for everyone. In this case, sample size has a much greater role on statistical significance and grizzlyb's sample size is far greater than my own informal testing. 

It would be interesting to have an idea of what Ken G's sample size was when developing the Gladius. He mentioned that they sent user variable rate strobes to Police Departments and then used the rate that the vast majority of these Departments tested as having the most disorienting effect.


Max


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## ledmitter_nli

I concur there is no one size fits all. I'm keen to guess 10hz effects a lot more people than say 18hz. This is my opinion only, 18hz just isn't the sweet spot.

I only hope flashlight manufacturers reading this thread won't suddenly adopt 18hz as their go to factory strobe setting.

More research needs to be done.

PS. The polling of the op's sample size seemed pretty anecdotal and biased in favor of the op. It's hardly scientific.

I'm going to bow out at this juncture. Gotta move on.


----------



## Grizzlyb

I´ll try to explain something, (probably I wrote this before already, but is lost in the pages)

Using a strobe is sometimes balancing between pro´s and con´s.
Most people will, more or less, be affected by strobes. 
When a LEO is just using it to gain an advantage while arresting an unarmed suspect, there will be just a little negative affect on the vision of the LEO. 

So in this situation it is just a small annoyance for the LEO. On the negative side, there is still the possibility, on slower frequencies, that the suspect can make small movements without detection. (everyone seems to forget that con ?)
But, when you need a good aim with your gun, it is extremely important your own vision is *not* affected. Not by the strobe and not by the amount of light bouncing from walls. So you want to use a strobe that is annoying the [email protected]#T out of the suspect, and as little distortion of your own vision.

This is one of the reasons we needed to work on the frequency (and with the beam).
The balance we had to find, was a frequency that still affects the suspect enough to get a good result, but have less problems for the user in case he needs the light while aiming his gun (indeed in Europe smaller chance, but still possible).
During test with special groups, many officers had problems focussing on their aim using slower strobes. So between 8hz and 15hz strobe IS very effetive, but in some cases counter productive .

So we found that the 18Hz region is still affecting the suspect enough to do the job. It does not have some of the negative side effects. We never ment to say that this was the region that had the best effect, it is just having enough effect to do a good job and not affects us.

Please don´t take the bait guys, he will keep trying to blow this thread with these words. 
It is OK be wishy washy and anecdotal.


----------



## grinsefalle

ledmitter_nli said:


> With all due respect, isn't this somewhat wishy washy thinking?



I don't do researches, nor am I a scientist, just a simple user. These were just my personal experiences. The fast strobe is more comfortable to use - for me. As I already said, I cannot tell you, if the strobe affect on the opponent is more or less compared to slower strobe. Some officers including myself testet it on the receiving end - it is very annoying and destracting. 
Why is it this way? I dont know, perhaps because of the type of beam...

Can I use the fast strobe without to much affect on me?......yes.
Does the fast strobe has the wanted affect on my opponent?.....yes.

Well, it works, job done. Simple like that. No wishy washy.
I don't care, if the strobe effect theoretical can be a little more intense, when I get affected more at the same time.
Again - my personal experience.






bluemax_1 said:


> In this case, I have to say ledmitter nli is raising a valid point. As he stated, the effect of the strobe will increase with the intensity of the light, and the target encounters the highest intensity. The intensity of the reflection/backsplash is far lower. If you experience side effects from the reflection, the effect of the direct beam should be even greater. Likewise, if the effect of the strobe from the user's perspective is greatly reduced, then you have to wonder about the intensity of the effect on the subject beyond what a constant light source of the same intensity would do.



I understand you. PLease see my comment above. 




bluemax_1 said:


> The other issue is the equipment and the way it's used. Take the difference previously discussed between the typical use and encounters between LEOs in the EU vs USA, and the difference between lights like the TL20 vs the Gladius/Thrunite Scorpion/Supbeam T10. Far greater chance of potential firearm encounters in the USA, apparently not as many hand to hand scuffles (the majority of US LEO hand to hand scuffles are 'resisting arrest', i.e. the perp trying to avoid being handcuffed, vs 'assault on a LEO' where the perp is actively attempting to harm the LEO, which results in a much more serious criminal charge).



That is correct. In Europe we have far more physical fights than shooting situations. 




bluemax_1 said:


> As far as the effect on the user in a room with white walls, we don't use the strobe for either white wall hunting, or clearing rooms/buildings.
> 
> Different equipment for different tactics and situations. With a light like the Gladius and its offshoots, the user can preselect the desired mode for the intended purpose, like a momentary Maximum for room/building clearing (makes you a more difficult target for a potentially armed suspect), strobe for a potentially belligerent suspect, constant on for foot pursuits etc.
> Different strokes for different folks and different equipment for different tactics/uses. We're fortunate to have such a wide variety of lights available to US these days to suit our particular preferences and uses, and continued experimentation by all the folks will help push the envelope and produce even more advancements.




Right, we are going the same way here. 
For sure, we don't hunt whitewalls  A lot of incidents here in Germany take place in houses or appartements. It can be domestic violence (we call it this way - dad is hurting mum) or somethig like that. 
The optimum would be a different flashlight for every specific task. Unfortunately this is not a realistic whish. I don't have unlimited space on the duty belt (I work in plain clothes, so I only carry the most important things on my belt, so it is still possible to cover my equipment with my shirt) and more than one main flashlight on the belt does increase my OODA-loop (the more tools I have, the longer I need to decide, which one to use.).

The Gladius is a great light... the only drawback is the use of CR123. I don't get these from my department and a lot of our work is to search people, cars, baggage.. (drugs, weapons, fake documents..) - so using the Gladius is a expensive pleasure.

The TDL is a great tool I can use for nearly all tasks. Searching with the lower constant modes and the strobe for all speed/stress situations. And it is a rechargeable light.. free lumens 


Michael
(no SWAT officer, no scientist - just a user)


----------



## ledmitter_nli

I can accept your explanation above Grizzlyb. I guess I'm misinterpreting the scope of the effect you are trying to achieve on the bad guy, which is a subtle disorientation and surprise, just enough to gain an advantage. Yes 18hz would probably do it, I'd muse even a constant on bright light will do it as well. One just looks cooler 

For real disco trance like inducement however, the 10hz range will probably do it better, but with more cons, as you've stated.

And that is all I have to say about this topic. 

Promise. :wave:


----------



## bluemax_1

Grizzlyb said:


> I´ll try to explain something, (probably I wrote this before already, but is lost in the pages)
> 
> Using a strobe is sometimes balancing between pro´s and con´s.
> Most people will, more or less, be affected by strobes.
> When a LEO is just using it to gain an advantage while arresting an unarmed suspect, there will be just a little negative affect on the vision of the LEO.
> 
> So in this situation it is just a small annoyance for the LEO. On the negative side, there is still the possibility, on slower frequencies, that the suspect can make small movements without detection. (everyone seems to forget that con ?)
> But, when you need a good aim with your gun, it is extremely important your own vision is *not* affected. Not by the strobe and not by the amount of light bouncing from walls. So you want to use a strobe that is annoying the [email protected]#T out of the suspect, and as little distortion of your own vision.
> 
> This is one of the reasons we needed to work on the frequency (and with the beam).
> The balance we had to find, was a frequency that still affects the suspect enough to get a good result, but have less problems for the user in case he needs the light while aiming his gun (indeed in Europe smaller chance, but still possible).
> During test with special groups, many officers had problems focussing on their aim using slower strobes. So between 8hz and 15hz strobe IS very effetive, but in some cases counter productive .
> 
> So we found that the 18Hz region is still affecting the suspect enough to do the job. It does not have some of the negative side effects. We never ment to say that this was the region that had the best effect, it is just having enough effect to do a good job and not affects us.
> 
> Please don´t take the bait guys, he will keep trying to blow this thread with these words.
> It is OK be wishy washy and anecdotal.


Great post Koen. BTW, do you think you might be able to add the important parts of this post to your first post? That way, any newcomer to the thread can read it and it doesn't get lost in the middle of the thread.

Eg. mentioning something about the strobe frequency selected and that the higher frequency was selected because it prevents unnoticed movement by the subject (which is mentioned in your first post) and because it has significantly less negative effect on the user (also mentioned in your first post), while still being effective against a subject (also mentioned), and not specifically because it was tested to have the greatest disorienting effect on subjects (this part isn't mentioned and I must have missed it if you mentioned it in the middle of the thread).


Max

P.S. BTW, how do you pronounce Koen? Is it pronounced like Rowan? i.e. Koh-wuhn? Or Ko-ehn? Or totally different from what I'm thinking? The pronunciation of foreign names/words has always interested me.


----------



## Grizzlyb

Koen . . . . ehhh You have this animal. . . .






leave the RA bit and you more or less have my name, with a small accent.

Max,
I made a extra pointer in my first post, to specifically point out that we where not looking for the best frequency, but for the most safe frequency, with the least negative side effects.


----------



## bluemax_1

Grizzlyb said:


> Koen . . . . ehhh You have this animal. . . .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> leave the RA bit and you more or less have my name, with a small accent.
> 
> Max,
> I made a extra pointer in my first post, to specifically point out that we where not looking for the best frequency, but for the most safe frequency, with the least negative side effects.


Thanks Koen!


Max


----------



## bluemax_1

Double post


----------



## mindquest

Grizzlyb,

Thanks for the great post!! As a non LEO it was insightful to understand when a strobe can be useful. I was looking at getting a couple TDL 20 for my wife and kids in college as Christmas presents and was wondering if you are still doing modifications on the light? I thought you mentioned in a post a long time back that you occasionally talk with the manufacturer to offer suggestions. 

Once again thanks to you and all the other contributors to this thread. 

Cheers!

Dave


----------



## Grizzlyb

Hello Mindquest,

We are still doing small modifications. More integrating the info we get back from the LEO's.
Also we are more and more talking with manufacturers about redesigning tactical lights for hand to hand combat, (NOT with handguns in mind).
No very big changes, but a bit stronger and even more focused beam, small UI changes, stuff like that.
The basic concept is, lets say: close to perfect already ?

At the moment not with the big manufacturers like SF or Fenix. We wrote them in early stages, but never got any answer.
The more flexible and some high quality builders are interested thou.

In Holland the last 10 years we have an increasing number of LEO's on the job only armed with Pepper, baton and handcuffs. No guns at all.
Last number was around 30.000 of these Cops without a gun in Holland. (Yeah, We know we are a small country )
Large number of those officers are very glad we developed these special Tactical Lights. They now have an extra way to get a tactical advantage.


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## mindquest

Grizzlyb said:


> Hello Mindquest,
> 
> We are still doing small modifications. More integrating the info we get back from the LEO's.
> Also we are more and more talking with manufacturers about redesigning tactical lights for hand to hand combat, (NOT with handguns in mind).



What do you mean by a redesign for hand to hand, from looking at this light and others on the market (ex. Fenix, Surfire) the only thing I could see being different would be the use of a sharp aggressive bezel being added. Of course this is from a non LEO viewpoint. 





Grizzlyb said:


> Hello Mindquest,
> 
> No very big changes, but a bit stronger and even more focused beam, small UI changes, stuff like that.
> The basic concept is, lets say: close to perfect already ?



Thanks for the insight into what you are advising with this light. I think I will hold off until closer till Christmas to buy them, maybe some of this improvements will be put into production by then.


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## Grizzlyb

mindquest said:


> What do you mean by a redesign for hand to hand, from looking at this light and others on the market (ex. Fenix, Surfire) the only thing I could see being different would be the use of a sharp aggressive bezel being added. Of course this is from a non LEO viewpoint.



No, You understand us wrong.
We will never go that aggressive bezel way. We are 100% against that idea. We took the bezel of and rounded the corners.
It is always been our intention to make a Tactical Light, that it is not meant to harm people with it, just to blind them momentary without hurting them.
Thats the hole idea behind it.

LEO's in Holland have been convicted for hitting people with those old Mag"lites".
The Judge said that they should have used their Baton. 
In Holland that is made from a rubber compound, designed to coarse as little damage as possible (I know....:tinfoil:.but it's Dutch politics) ).

So we started to look for a substitute for the Mag"heavys" and a more tactically usable hand size TL.
With NO strike bezel please. 

The changes are to be found in a bit more lm, (new LED's come out and upgrades are nice but not always necessary) 
And later this year there probably will be other manufacturers with the same concept.
That means more choices in brands and types.


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## mindquest

Grizzlyb said:


> No, You understand us wrong.
> We will never go that aggressive bezel way. We are 100% against that idea. We took the bezel of and rounded the corners.
> It is always been our intention to make a Tactical Light, that it is not meant to harm people with it, just to blind them momentary without hurting them.
> Thats the hole idea behind it.
> 
> LEO's in Holland have been convicted for hitting people with those old Mag"lites".
> The Judge said that they should have used their Baton.
> In Holland that is made from a rubber compound, designed to coarse as little damage as possible (I know....:tinfoil:.but it's Dutch politics) ).
> 
> So we started to look for a substitute for the Mag"heavys" and a more tactically usable hand size TL.
> With NO strike bezel please.
> 
> The changes are to be found in a bit more lm, (new LED's come out and upgrades are nice but not always necessary)
> And later this year there probably will be other manufacturers with the same concept.
> That means more choices in brands and types.



My bad as I said I am not a LEO. Could you explain what you mean by "_redesigning tactical lights for hand to hand combat_"

Thanks again for the information regarding the use of strobes.


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## Grizzlyb

Hello Mindquest,

The post You revere to:
_"Also we are more and more talking with manufacturers about redesigning tactical lights for hand to hand combat, (NOT with handguns in mind)_."

That means, that we are talking with manufacturers, so THEY can redesign THEIR so called "tactical lights", more with "hand to hand combat in mind.
It does not mean that WE are redesigning our lights.
Google on Tactical Light pictures and You'll see al sorts of lights attached to guns, guns and more guns. 
That is to be expected and OK, coarse thats where it al started.

But, thats not what many streetcops use a Tactical Light for. 
And when better tactics are being developed, we need to adjust the way we look at Tactical Lights.
That's where this thread is all about.

btw Mindquest, 
Have You ever posted on this forum before, under an other name?
The way you ask your questions, seems to ring a bell.


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## mindquest

Grizzlyb said:


> btw Mindquest,
> Have You ever posted on this forum before, under an other name?
> The way you ask your questions, seems to ring a bell.



As I said before I am not a LEO so apologizes for these type of questions. Just a lay person learning more about flashlights to make a more informed decision for me and my family. And to answer your question directly I have not been on this site before but found this thread via a Google search on tactical lights.


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## Grizzlyb

No need to apologize, the way you write just reminded me to an other European guy.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn GT-I9505 met Tapatalk 4


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## medic75142

This is very interesting to me. As a security officer and a former paramedic. My question would be what is the lowest lums that are effective to just the subject and at what level do the lums begin to effect the LEO?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk 2


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## bluemax_1

medic75142 said:


> This is very interesting to me. As a security officer and a former paramedic. My question would be what is the lowest lums that are effective to just the subject and at what level do the lums begin to effect the LEO?
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk 2



It's not so much the lumens as the candela. Those terms describe different things. Lumens = total light ouput, candela = intensity. A light bulb may produce a lot of lumens, but with relatively low intensity, a small focused spotlight may produce lower total lumens, but the focused light may be of much higher intensity.

The intensity of the light is also going to depend on the range at which it's used. The further away the subject is, the lower the intensity. Since everything is a compromise, your best bet is to examine the most likely scenarios YOU might need this light for, i.e. the average and maximum range you would need the light for (as far as using a strobe to disorient someone, I don't see a real reason to strobe someone from more than 10-15 yards away).

Personally, I prefer lights to have a Candela rating of at least 20,000. Lower Candela can still be effective, but the effect on the subject is reduced, and the range is lower. The other compromise is beam pattern. Different lights can have tight, medium or large hotspots, with narrow, medium or wide flood angles and any combination of the two. You have to determine what your ideal beam pattern is for you.

From a strictly disorienting-strobe oriented perspective, a light with a medium hotspot with little flood might be ideal. Too tight of a hotspot may be more difficult to hit the subject's eyes with. Too much flood increases the likelihood of illuminating a partner (as grizzlyb described) as well as increasing the user's affected angle of vision. How much of an effect a given strobe has (i.e. of the same intensity, total lumen output and frequency) also depends on how much of your view is affected by the strobe, i.e. if you're hitting someone standing against a white wall with a strobe light, a light that focuses all of its lumens on a small target area is going to affect the user less (and the subject more) than a light that is lighting up the whole wall and apparently making the whole wall flash.

If you have ANY flashlight with a strobe mode, you can test the apparent effects of the last by simply pointing it at a wall in strobe mode and varying the distance of both you, and the flashlight to the wall. As you approach the wall with the flashlight, the reflection will increase in intensity. As you increase the differential between you and the flashlight, you will alter how much of your angle of vision is covered by the beam (simulating a tighter hotspot).


Max


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## Grizzlyb

medic75142 said:


> This is very interesting to me. As a security officer and a former paramedic. My question would be what is the lowest lums that are effective to just the subject and at what level do the lums begin to effect the LEO?
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk 2



Like Bluemax explained, there is a lot more to it then just lumens.

To answer your question correctly, I should know a lot more about the situation you need the light for.

In this discussion we are talking about "hand to hand" close combat situations, where LEO's have to arrest opponents and need all the advantages they can get.
In those situations it is enough to blind/disorientate the opponent enough so they they have a hard time to focus an can't see it coming.

At the moment we use a light that will work perfectly in doing that. It has "only" 10.000 lux in the hotspot.
Look directly in a 10.000 lux hotspot with a good strobe, and you'll know that will do the job.
But, that doesn't say, that a brighter hotspot won't do the job better.
It will, as long as the hotspot stay's small enough to not blind and hinder the user. 
At the moment we are increasing the lux to over 20.000lux, without creating a bigger hotspot.

Outdoors, a larger hotspot with lots of lumens spilling out, won't be a big problem, but indoors it pretty fast will.
Bright white strobing lights, bouncing of ceilings and/or walls will affect the user in a way you don't need in those situations.
There is a lot written already about that in this thread.

So it is always a compromise between different situations.
Keep the big search lights in the car for special uses and carry your tactical equipment on your belt, where you can grab it with one hand instantly.

You see, answering your question is not that simple.


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## medic75142

Thank you. I tend to look at the.medical side of things than at the tactical. Here in Texas we have a level II security officer that means they are unarmed. So they could benefit from a good tactical training with flashlights as it would not be considered a weapon. Most of my training is in terrorism and WMDs. However, I want to try to keep level of force as low as possible. This is a really great subject. Now if I could find a 10000 lumen light under $100. My wife would let me buy it.

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## bluemax_1

medic75142 said:


> Thank you. I tend to look at the.medical side of things than at the tactical. Here in Texas we have a level II security officer that means they are unarmed. So they could benefit from a good tactical training with flashlights as it would not be considered a weapon. Most of my training is in terrorism and WMDs. However, I want to try to keep level of force as low as possible. This is a really great subject. *Now if I could find a 10000 lumen light under $100*. My wife would let me buy it.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk 2


I think you meant 10,000 lux/candela. 10,000 LUMEN is BRIGHT. The Olight X6 Marauder Search/Spotlight with 6 x XM-L Leds and a separate battery pack is *only* 5000 lumen.


Max


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## medic75142

Yes, I hate auto correct! 

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## Grizzlyb

Hi Medic75142,

You said the magic word :thumbsup: TRAINING.
A good tactical light is only 1 thing of the 3 you need.
1. the right mindset,
2. the right light,
3. the right training with that light, and the will to practice what you learn.

To our knowledge, at the moment there are not many people that fully understand the possibility's of these new insides and integrate it in their training program's.


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## medic75142

I would love to find someone to learn from so I could go on to train those that may want/need to be effective in their jobs and foe their families. 

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## Grizzlyb

That depends where you live.
In Europe, more departments (Police and Medics) recognize the necessity to train these technics and tactics. 
We know that, apart from the Dutch Policeforce, there are some Police trainers in Germany that started to train with these technics.

Outside Europe, I don't think there are already trainers that teach these technics from our perspective.
I could be wrong thou.


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## medic75142

OK, slow kid in class raising his hand! I have a 5.11 light that states it has 4029cd. Is this going to meet the criteria for a good light?

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## Grizzlyb

Read our criteria for a tactical light on page 1 to know if your light falls in that categorie.
For many uses that 5.11 will be a nice light. Not for the work we do.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn GT-I9505 met Tapatalk 4


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## alexl

If the best strobe is 18-20hz then why is the TK75 and oscillating strobe between 6.7hz and 15.2hz every 2 seconds? I guess there are different uses for strobe *I presume stunning people* but I could be wrong


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## Grizzlyb

Did you read this thread? 
We explained many times that 18hz is not "The Best". 
There could be several reasons Fenix choses that frequency. 
And about all manufactors have different frequency's, slow, fast, oscillating, why should Fenix be the standard?

Who says what is "the best" and when is what "the best". 
Please read this thread a bit more, before asking the wrong question . (and is there a "wrong" question :tinfoil: )

When you read this thread thoroughly, You'll read that this frequency works in our specific situation the best.
And it is well explained why the oscillating thing Fenix uses is not working for us. 

Verstuurd vanaf mijn GT-I9505 met Tapatalk 4


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## alexl

Grizzlyb said:


> Did you read this thread?
> We explained many times that 18hz is not "The Best".
> There could be several reasons Fenix choses that frequency.
> And about all manufactors have different frequency's, slow, fast, oscillating, why should Fenix be the standard?
> 
> Who says what is "the best" and when is what "the best".
> Please read this thread a bit more, before asking the wrong question . (and is there a "wrong" question :tinfoil: )
> 
> When you read this thread thorrowly, You'll read that this frequency works in our specific situation the best.
> And it is well explained why the oscillating thing Fenix uses is not working for us.
> 
> Verstuurd vanaf mijn GT-I9505 met Tapatalk 4



There is no such thing as stupid questions... only stupid people!

I will read more of this thread, I got just over a page in before it started to hurt my brain. I understand Fenix (or any specific manufacturer) would not be standard and I am not looking for "the best". I was simply asking the uses of different frequencies. I guess this is discussed within these 12 pages


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## Grizzlyb

Your question reads: "If the best strobe is 18-20hz then why. . . ."
So You assumed that that 18-20Hz is the best, and ask why Fenix is using something different.

When You just take that last question, I don't know for sure. I could come up with several reasons, but to be sure best ask Fenix?.

B.T.W. I never said the question was stupid. Read again, it says "wrong"
And I placed a :tinfoil: smile after my remark to indicate that there are no "wrong" questions, just wrong answers.

EDIT:
On page 1, directly under STROBE MODE, it is explained already that many strobes are fine, but for our work there are some disadvantages in some frequency's.


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## KITROBASKIN

Following a thread that gets the same question asked over and over is not very interesting.

That said:
Have the flashlights with a right angle head been considered as a way to illuminate the target and use the flashlight in an aggressive/defensive way? What disadvantage is there? I understand one can be punished for using a flashlight too aggressively in your country but... We are interested in how the flashlight is specifically used in a hand to hand (or knife) fight.


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## Grizzlyb

Hello Kitrobaskin, 

First of all, we DON'T use a flashlight in an aggressive way.

And Yes we have considered those. Some had potential, but non of the manufactors worked with us, so we went the other route with a normal light.
Also to find the switches could be a problem. (same problem with side switches.)

Most right angled lights are used for handsfree work. 
Then it will hang somewhere and can't be directed exactly.

All lights that are mainly used for blinding/disorienting need to be directed exactly in the eyes of the opponent. 
A tactical hotspot at 10 feet is about 1 foot so there is no margin for error. 

When you keep a right angle light in your hand it can be used as good as any other light, as long as you have enough training with it (and you have a good momentary switch that you can find 100 time in 100 tries).
But You will also have to develope a "quickdraw" holster for it.

And in fights with knives, we never go hand to hand. That's a certain way to get hurt realy bad.:shakehead


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## alexl

Thanks - I have up to page 7 so far so makes sense now.

This particular part is interesting, I will read on to see if any did... 



> Some manufacturers make oscilating strobes, some make strobes on the 3Hz or 10Hz rim and others between 15Hz and 20Hz. We may assume that those manufacturers all did some sort of research? (but what kind and how thorrow we don't know)



edit - Great on page 8

I cannot find the following specifications on the website for the TDL20 - http://www.edenwebshops.co.uk/en/pt/-eden-tdl-20-tactical-torch.htm

Runtime - in different modes
Candela rating?
Throw metres?


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## texas cop

Grizzlyb, I've not looked at this thread for awhile. Just notice the light you use listed, looks nice. I'm using a SolarForce host with near identical size. The dropin is a three amp high/strobe, 450 mah low XM-L2 U2. Its set for strobe, high, low with no memory. Modes are scrolled through with the light pressed against my leg as need be. High is around 900 lumens with a bit larger hot spot. 18650 Panasonic 3400 mah protected for power. I use a bit brighter light as it might need to light up a parking lot or field. After waterproofing it, I put it at the deep end of the pool for two days, no water got in. It does rain in Texas occasionally. Waterproofing was Teflon tape on the head threads, tightened bezel, tightened switch retaining ring, grease on the tail threads. Very happy with the setup. No idea of the strobe but its fast, guessing 12-18 per second.


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## Roanqoan

Very informative. Thanks for posting.


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## alexl

Hasn't the need for a battery indicator been overlooked? What is the use of a torch if it turns off or dims to a point where it is not effective (or as effective as it could be)


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## Grizzlyb

Hi Texas Cop,

You seem to have a good and usable light for your work. It seems to cover most of the situations you can come across.
Being a more tactical instrument then a normal light,our lights always start up in strobe mode, but knowing that, we also hold it against the leg a second and switch to the mode we want. Same technic

What You maybe still need, is a holster that supports the tactical possibility of these lights.
It is no problem to have a good light that works on a different strobe frequency.
It only gets important when you want to design a specific light for a specific job and want all the possible shortcomings ironed out as much as possible.
Having tested it so long and on so many people, we had the chance to focus on many angles we needed and didn't need, that resulted in this straight forward tactical instrument.

Hi Alexl,
Good question:thumbsup:.
The light will work constantly for about 2 hours on high mode.
That situations has, up till now, never occurred with the groups we work with.

When ever the LEO feels the need, he takes a fully charged battery from the charger and puts the used one back. (some do that automatically every few days or so)
So he never has to look for an indicator. 
Indicators are a non necessary extra, extra's cost extra money and raise the chance of stuff breaking down.
Everything according to the K I S S principle.


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## alexl

Thank you 

How do you gauge 2 hours of use? I would 'feel the need' every few times I had been working (If I was a LEO that is) If a light dims right down or turns off in a big field it doesn't matter so much as if you are about to be bottled/stabbed etc! Interesting thread and great replies, even if I am very new to torches and dont fully understand their simple yet complex workings


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## Grizzlyb

They don't have to gauge. 
As I said, it is easy to swap batteries when You start your shift (when you realy want that and feel the need).
It is better than have to look at indicators all the time and worry if the indicator still works.

In Europe most LEO's work in the City. 
There is always so much light that they very seldom need an extra light source. 
A typical shift for a LEO (in Holland) is 3 to 4 night's in a 4 week period. They use a light maybe 1 or 2 times a shift *at the most*.
Total use can be measured in seconds more then in minutes. 
So when they change a battery once a month when they start nightshift, it is more then enough.


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## RI Chevy

Wow. You guys are slow over there. LOL


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## donjoe

Grizzlyb said:


> *5.* At least 250lm throw type beam at up to 2 hours. Higher lumens (read lux) is possible, but no less. (The effects of blinding and disorientation are optimal enough on that intensity. On lower lm the effect is less and not optimal.)


Do you have an equivalent specification in candela? Since we're talking about a very directional effect (toward a target's eyes), it seems more relevant to talk about how many cd you need in a strobing flashlight in order to optimize the effect.

I saw Max mention a range of 20k-30k cd as optimal, but I think he was talking about a continuous beam and I wanted your opinion on this, specifically in the context of the strobe discussion. So far you've only mentioned something like 9k cd, but you didn't specify if you thought that was the optimal level to achieve target disorientation with minimal effects on yourself or your colleagues.


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## Grizzlyb

Good thinking Donjoe,

We indeed have a minimum on cd on a specified field at several distances.
Minimum is 9000lux at 1 meter,
At 3 meter (max fighting distance) a minimum of 1000lux in center of the hotspot (throw) with max diameter of 20 cm (at the side still min. 800lux).
At 1.5 meter the outside of the light circle may not have more than 15 lux.
At 3 meter the max light circle should not be more than 2.5 meter in diameter.
This way we are sure not to have lights with a wide beam that will blind/hinder the user to much due to rebounce from walls/ceiling.
These figures are "more or less" but this way you have a better picture of it.

Not to say that this is the best, but it works the best for our use, with as little negative side effects as possible.


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## donjoe

Grizzlyb said:


> Minimum is 9000lux at 1 meter,
> At 3 meter (max fighting distance) a minimum of 1000lux in center of the hotspot (throw) with max diameter of 20 cm


OK, so both these specs suggest you want to throw at least ~63 lm into that very tight hotspot that's 0.2 m in diameter at 3 m distance. Unless my Wikipedia-based math is out of whack, this translates to an intensity minimum of 18 kcd for that hotspot, which is pretty close to what Max was talking about. So thanks for the confirmation then!


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## bluemax_1

donjoe said:


> OK, so both these specs suggest you want to throw at least ~63 lm into that very tight hotspot that's 0.2 m in diameter at 3 m distance. Unless my Wikipedia-based math is out of whack, this translates to an intensity minimum of 18 kcd for that hotspot, which is pretty close to what Max was talking about. So thanks for the confirmation then!


I think you have your measurements a little confused. As far as flashlights go, you can pretty much take lux at 1 meter = candela.


Max


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## donjoe

Yep, apparently I did get confused - those two specs I quoted were actually quite different:
9000 lux @ 1 m => 31.36 lm into that beam that makes a hotspot with a 0.2 m diameter @ 3 m, so 9 kcd in this case
1000 lux @ 3 m => 62.7 lm into the same beam, so ~18 kcd in this case.

Now if we put them together, we still get the conclusion that the minimum required intensity is actually 18 kcd along the direction of maximum output. I don't know why there's this difference between the specs, maybe the first spec was some kind of average for the whole beam pattern, i.e. hotspot + spill.


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## bluemax_1

donjoe said:


> Yep, apparently I did get confused - those two specs I quoted were actually quite different:
> 9000 lux @ 1 m => 31.36 lm into that beam that makes a hotspot with a 0.2 m diameter @ 3 m, so 9 kcd in this case
> 1000 lux @ 3 m => 62.7 lm into the same beam, so ~18 kcd in this case.
> 
> Now if we put them together, we still get the conclusion that the minimum required intensity is actually 18 kcd along the direction of maximum output. I don't know why there's this difference between the specs, maybe the first spec was some kind of average for the whole beam pattern, i.e. hotspot + spill.


Your calculations are still off.

The general conversion for Candela from measured lux at X meters is:
Candela = (lux) x (square of distance in meters).

So for 1000lux at 3m, you'd get 1000 x (3x3) = 9000cd.


Max


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## donjoe

Got me again. I just can't get any good days for science, apparently.


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## ghodan

Anybody know the effect of a flashlight on a aggressive dog that has intend on attacking you or somebody next to you.
Do dogs get blinded more easy then humans?
Does strobe have more or less effect on dogs?


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## bluemax_1

ghodan said:


> Anybody know the effect of a flashlight on a aggressive dog that has intend on attacking you or somebody next to you.
> Do dogs get blinded more easy then humans?
> Does strobe have more or less effect on dogs?



Anecdotal evidence is sparse on this. Some folks have claimed that it worked, some have claimed that it didn't even slow them down. I'm inclined to think it's going to be intensity dependant. Dogs tend to have better low light vision than humans, but I'm not sure how that translates in comparison to humans as far as being blinded by a bright light goes. 

I'm also unaware if there's a specific frequency range for a strobe that affects them the way it does humans.

What I DO know is that animals are smart enough to be wary of charging something they can't see. One thing I tried a long time ago was to hit a charging dog in the eyes with a bright spotlight and yell at it. It DID screech to a stop, but I don't know if yelling at it alone, without the spotlight might have had the same effect.

I'm inclined to think that the combination of not being able to see what it was charging at PLUS the loud noise, startled it enough to make it stop, but I wouldn't trust using just a flashlight to ward off aggressive dogs. If I did, it would have to be one heckuva bright light.


Max


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## donjoe

It's funny you should ask that, because that was exactly my primary intended use when I got my first "tacti-cool" flashlight. I never got to test it because I later convinced myself to give an ultrasound device a try, so when push came to shove I preferred to pull out that one (while also having the flashlight on me). So all I can tell you for sure on this subject, after two real-world tests (actual aggresive dogs coming at me, not pets and not dogs behind fences), is that you can have a reasonable expectation that if you're up against a single aggressive dog that happens to not be deaf you'll be able to keep it at a respectable distance (10 steps/yards or so) by blasting it with ultrasound and yelling at it at the same time.


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## dc38

donjoe said:


> It's funny you should ask that, because that was exactly my primary intended use when I got my first "tacti-cool" flashlight. I never got to test it because I later convinced myself to give an ultrasound device a try, so when push came to shove I preferred to pull out that one (while also having the flashlight on me). So all I can tell you for sure on this subject, after two real-world tests (actual aggresive dogs coming at me, not pets and not dogs behind fences), is that you can have a reasonable expectation that if you're up against a single aggressive dog that happens to not be deaf you'll be able to keep it at a respectable distance (10 steps/yards or so) by blasting it with ultrasound and yelling at it at the same time.



Strobes alone of any frequency do not deter dogs at ALL. It either further agitates them or excites them to beyond the point of manageability. My sources are my experiences with strobing many aggressive off leash dogs and getting yelled at by irresponsible owners later. I believe it has something to do with the way a dog sees color and light, and that their vision is more movement sensitive. I've strobed crazy chihuahuas, crazy pit bulls, crazy pugs, crazy greyhounds, angry mutts, etc; none have stopped their charge from strobe alone, and I almost got bit the first time by a pair of boxers. Bellowing out and advancing toward the dog with a towering demeanor will more than likely confuse the dog. And a confused dog usually runs. Fortunately, I haven't run into any German Shepards. Being fiercely loyal, I don't think their territorial nature would let them run. Unless you can condition a dog to fear the strobe (pair with an inhumanely uncomfortable experience like zapping or stick beating) strobe will NOT work on dogs.


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## ghodan

What about a nice dose of candela. Like 23.000 candela coming out from a SRT7 or G25C2 mk2 or Armytek Predator. (Predator has 40.000 cd?)


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## sidecross

ghodan said:


> What about a nice dose of candela. Like 23.000 candela coming out from a SRT7 or G25C2 mk2 or Armytek Predator. (Predator has 40.000 cd?)



I have one of my two Egaletac G25C2 MKll set at strobe and even have double click set to strobe on both lights; each G25C2 MKll is set in tactical mode. :thumbsup:


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## ghodan

sidecross said:


> I have one of my two Egaletac G25C2 MKll set at strobe and even have double click set to strobe on both lights; each G25C2 MKll is set in tactical mode. :thumbsup:



Ok. Can you now jump over some wall with a area that has guard dogs and test your candela canon?

Its for flashaholic research cause :huh:


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## donjoe

dc38 said:


> Strobes alone of any frequency do not deter dogs at ALL.


Actually, I never considered using strobe against a dog, I always just pictured myself blinding it with a continuous high-beam while backing away. Humans I would have to strobe because they can put their hands in front of their faces and still try to advance.


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## ghodan

ghodan said:


> Ok. Can you now jump over some wall with a area that has guard dogs and test your candela canon?
> 
> Its for flashaholic research cause :huh:




MMhhh he did not reply yet.... So the dog(s) must have gotten him. So it did not work


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## dc38

donjoe said:


> Actually, I never considered using strobe against a dog, I always just pictured myself blinding it with a continuous high-beam while backing away. Humans I would have to strobe because they can put their hands in front of their faces and still try to advance.



Ah, my mistake lol. I thought the same as you with the constant on; Even with high beam lights, dogs really don't seem deterred by lights at all... My tk41 on turbo didnt help at all with the greyhound or pit bull...in both cases I had to yell and charge at the dogs to intimidate them. In retrospect, I'm glad that I didn't get hurt doing that lol.


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## Bullzeyebill

Guy's we're getting a little off topic here. Please stick to the conversation re the Police Study of tactical use of Strobe.

Bill


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## medic75142

I believe that the use of strobes on dogs is still on topic! Now, it did get a little silly, but overall still on topic. I have found a light that I can get that meets all the criteria for a tactical light, I'm wondering if there is someone from the forum that could make the modifications to have it come o in the strobe mode? 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk 2


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## CounterAttack

Very interesting. I work along side police officers on a regular basis. And our department uses Pelican 7060 flashlights. So there are dual switches for which ever one you feel more ergonomic and it is only one mode: High. 

I see why they want to make them use light weight lights b/c most officers do leave there lights in the car or don't carry it at all if they are working day watch. But I would have to disagree on dual tail switches. Especially like Klaurs lights. If they have two switches in the back and they were different size and shape I don't think the officers would confuse them, that is more convenient, b/c have your light on strobe as the primary setting can get annoying at times. But it does take the the error in humans.:tinfoil:


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## cheapdietpills

Thank you for the excellent write up. I was particularly interested in the fact that a slow strobe could allow a suspect to actually move his hands undetected. The effect must be sort of like an old movie where the "flicker" of each slow moving frame and border makes what you are seeing look like a series of still images.


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## Dave D

CounterAttack said:


> If they have two switches in the back and they were different size and shape I don't think the officers would confuse them



Despite your forum name I think you are missing the point!

Think 'Violence of Action' and you're on the receiving end with somebody intent on doing you serious harm or worse!

In that high stress situation would you be able to hit the correct button on time every time??

In comparison almost every other use of a flashlight is a lower stress situation allowing you the split second it takes to click through to constant on, whilst holding the beam against your leg if necessary.

The average cop doesn't have the luxury to train on a regular basis with every bit of defensive kit that they carry so that it becomes instinctive. In my own department we have to qualify once every twelve months.


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## texas cop

Stress puts the brain into overload. Lots of practice can help but why risk it? We had a officer during qualification not be able to get her weapon to fire. She was squeezing the trigger guard. Funny, but still deadly in real life. Plenty of stories about officers drawing a radio or screaming instructions counter to what was needed or physically possible. Good physical health, practice, experience helps with most of the issues. Less equipment is better. As far as flashlights I carry one on the belt that does everything, a spare in the shirt pocket.


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## pzmobile

useful information

some manufactures built a change frequency strobe. Shining from low to high automatically.


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## silverspurr

Excellent, very informative.
Thank you.


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## Joe Talmadge

Dave D said:


> Think 'Violence of Action' and you're on the receiving end with somebody intent on doing you serious harm or worse!



The thing here is, if you haven't trained it or lived it, it's easy to get the wrong idea of what's easy or hard, at least for most people. Before I started stress-training this years ago, I thought I'd be much more capable than I was. The first time we stress trained this type of thing, I had my training partner put on gloves, we walked through a scenario, I told him to attack me with sudden forward drive if and when he wanted ... keep in mind, I *knew* he might be attacking me, knew it was a training drill, told him specifically not to knock my head off (but do hit me)... and even with all this pre-knowledge and restraint, was shocked how incapable I'd become. I had a new appreciation of "keep it simple" and the kinds of stress factors many of the LEOs are discussing here. Took lots of drills to get more capable.


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## WWWW

Good read, very interesting and very informative. Thanks a lot!!


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## Harvest123

Grizzlyb - first, I have read the entire thread and it has really been an enlightening and educational experience for me as a newbie to the forum. I understand far more about basics of the terminology surrounding this cool science. I wanted to mention on thing that I saw in your earlier pics of how you held your light for a possible counter strike to an aggressor. It showed a fist like grip around the light for a "knuckle" strike. In the hand to hand training that I have done, I have always been taught to throw a strike with an open hand to avoid hand injury. Once the hand is broken due to a fisted punch around a light, the LEO personnel has a difficult time with cuffs, accessing a weapon, etc. I know there are few ways to grip a light, but when I saw the fisted strike it kinda made me think "what if?" Again, I appreciate this forum more now than I ever thought possible. Just my first thread as well!


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## RI Chevy

Welcome to the Forum! :welcome:


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## Bullzeyebill

Hello HARVEST123, I appreciate your interest in this thread, as it is very well done. I posted the following earlier in this thread, and the OP has agreed that this thread is only about the tactical use of strobe, with no emphasis on using a flashlight as a striking tool.



Bullzeyebill said:


> Let's keep this on topic, which is a police study of tactical use of strobe........... Threads are always closed when the emphasis is that flashlights are considered as blunt instruments to be used defensively or offensively. There are other forums on the web where that can be discussed.
> 
> Bill



Bill


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## KITROBASKIN

Post deleted: Moderater, please delete


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## Praetorianer

@Grizzlyb

Thank you for the information about strobe....

Can you give me 1 or 2 example for "Strobe-Flashlights", which have 18 hz and can use with wired button and also can starts direct in the strobe modus?

Max: ca. 150 gr. and 15 cm


Thans for your help!


Sorry my english is not the best.


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## Grizzlyb

Hello Praetorianer,

At the moment there are still very little brands that make lights according to these specs.
For manufactures it is all about making money. So they come up with lights that they can sell.

Our objective is trying to find what is making LEO's more safe.
We are not in the busyness of recommending lights, we just work with it and develop it according to our needs.
There are some lights that can be made to work in the 18hz frequentie, Armytek for one is programmable . 
And some others that can be programmed to start-up in tactical strobe.
Some manufactures are willing to help us with the developement.

Europe is probably to small a market to get the big manufactures interested.
At the moment there is only 1 light that meets our specs, the one we developed. (I think its just for sell in Europe)

Probably before the end of 2013, there will be a second brand with a light that meets those specs.
They really did a lot of research and made a lot of work of it.

When You live in Europe you can pm me.


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## Justin Case

deleted


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## Praetorianer

@Grizzlyb 

Thank you for your help - PM is not possible at the moment, because i am new to this forum and need more posts.

I am living in Europe.

I have seen one in this thread, the Eden TDL 20 is nearly perfect for me, but i can not found a wired button for this flashlight..?

At the moment i use a Nitecore SRT 6 but this one use a 22 hz strobe.


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## Grizzlyb

Hi Justin Case,

Thanks for the update in who did what and when.
3 lines below the Quote you referred to, we wrote this:
"It was never our intention to do research on who invented what, and who wrote the first book about it".

And since 1997 a lot is technically improved.
Not only mechanically, but also the possibility's of using software with strobe.
That's why we felt the need to improve Tactical Lights and remake them to our needs.
99% of what we saw in books and articles about Tactical Lights was about gun related use.
Thats totally NOT what we wanted or needed.

Hi Praetorian,
Assuming you want something like this?







We don't need a wired button on our Tactical Lights.
The way we use it excludes the use of it.


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## Praetorianer

@Grizzlyb

Yes, that is the right one, which one is it?

The Predator is a little to big for me, but the Niccore are nice, do you think that 22hz is to high...?


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## Grizzlyb

Hi Praetorianer, 22hz will do fine. The right mindset and the way you use it are most important. Best you follow a specialized training. 

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


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## Praetorianer

@Grizzlyb

I have send you a PM, now it works.


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## Justin Case

deleted


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## Grizzlyb

Hi Justin Case,

Lots of tekst, but, if You have one, what was Your question exactly? (and if possible a bit more on topic of Tactical use of Strobe )
And read post 352. There was an answer about Lux. Maybe thats what You wanted to know?


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## Justin Case

deleted


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## Grizzlyb

Can You keep it to 1 question at a time?


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## Justin Case

Why??


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## Grizzlyb

What? ,

Ok coarse I still have a norm,al live to. Keep it simple.


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## Justin Case

deleted


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## Grizzlyb

I asked if You have A question. Not a list of them, and in that list several sub questions.
As said, This is getting more like an interegation.
I have a life, other then sitting behind a screen trying to sort thru a page filled with questions. 

Simple question or it won't be answerd by me.
Something like:
Justin, Are You a LEO.?


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## Justin Case

deleted


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## Justin Case

deleted


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## Justin Case

deleted


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## Justin Case

deleted


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## Justin Case

deleted


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## Justin Case

deleted


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## Grizzlyb

Are You a LEO?


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## medic75142

Grizzlyb,
It is obvious that Justin is wanting to know the entire study.and.all the science behind it. This would mean that he is not a LEO but a PIA. Justin the why and how don't matter the.work.has already been.done take it for.what it.is worth! 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


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## bluemax_1

medic75142 said:


> Grizzlyb,
> It is obvious that Justin is wanting to know the entire study.and.all the science behind it. This would mean that he is not a LEO but a PIA. Justin the why and how don't matter the.work.has already been.done take it for.what it.is worth!
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


I don't see it that way. All the questions Justin has asked thus far are valid questions (although some of them have been answered in some form in this thread during discussions between several participants).

I personally think it's good to ask pertinent questions. If there is proper logic and methodology, then there are valid answers. Unfortunately, there are always some details and variables that may not have been accounted for. Questioning these details and variables and looking into them is how advancements occur.

For example, his point about the on vs off times of the strobe rate is valid. This is something that reviewer selfbuilt has noted in some reviews, that slower strobe rates with longer on times can skew his perception into thinking that the strobe rate is faster than it is (shorter 'dark time').

As for Justin's queries about a light designed to ALWAYS come on in strobe, that was discussed and attributed to the differences in types of encounters and subsequent flashlight usage tactics between LEOs in the EU vs us over here in the US.

Different strokes for different folks as it were. Grizzlyb's research has developed a specific task light that fits all the requirements of his primary criteria. Those criteria may or may not be as ideally suited to other applications.


Max


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## medic75142

You can what if forever. I've been in terrorism and WMD preparedness since before 9/11. Take what has been given is all I'm saying.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


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## Justin Case

deleted


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## bluemax_1

medic75142 said:


> You can what if forever. I've been in terrorism and WMD preparedness since before 9/11. Take what has been given is all I'm saying.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


And there is where we differ. If no one ever questions anything, advancement stagnates and we go nowhere. All our advancements in tactics and equipment has come about because someone wondered "what if" there were better options.

The difference is between folks trying to further our understanding and the resultant developments vs folks just worshiping what has come before and taking it as gospel.

What pleased me about this thread was finding Grizzlyb's info and discovering that other folks have also been experimenting and trying things out, as I did when I first began testing strobing a flashlight over a decade ago before the Gladius debuted.

If none of us had asked questions, we'd still be stuck with constant On. The gospel of the time was, "strobing lights are tacticool. Not actually practical in any way". Actually, that thinking is still prevalent in many departments.


Max


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## Justin Case

deleted


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## medic75142

Nothing further 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk


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## RTR882

Justin Case, Questions are fine. On the other hand if you took the time to read the entire thread - hint, start with post 1, your questions have been *already *been addressed in considerable detail. Furthermore, subjecting the OP with aggressive questions (interrogation) is unbecoming.


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## Justin Case

deleted


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## agnelucio

I have a few strobe-capable lights, and personally I find 30% duty cycle at about 15Hz most disorienting.
On that note, I should probably stop shining strobes in my own face. :duh2:


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## newdenny

Hi Grizzlyb,

Thanks very much for the sharing of your insights on tactical lights.

Would you mind to let us know the brand and model of the second tactical lights that fulfill your requirements when it is released by end of 2013?

I have an off-topic question. You mentioned that the weather is too hot for LEOs in Holland to wear Bulletproof vests, are those vest NIJ Level IIIA or equivalent? Is NIJ Level II or IIA vest more practical for the weather?

Thanks
Denny


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## CaptainRogersUK

I find the fact that Grizzly has been more than helpful and forward with all his thinking, expertise and advancement in the usage of strobe for the LEO, I think it is just a shame that a few people dont have the courtesy to offer him the respect he deserves.As many have pointed out, most questions being asked seem to have been covered in earlier posts.

You would have thought that some one with more than 3000 posts would show a little more respect.

Keep up the good work Grizzly


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## Grizzlyb

newdenny said:


> Hi Grizzlyb,
> 
> Thanks very much for the sharing of your insights on tactical lights.
> 
> Would you mind to let us know the brand and model of the second tactical lights that fulfill your requirements when it is released by end of 2013?
> 
> I have an off-topic question. You mentioned that the weather is too hot for LEOs in Holland to wear Bulletproof vests, are those vest NIJ Level IIIA or equivalent? Is NIJ Level II or IIA vest more practical for the weather?
> 
> Thanks
> Denny



When other brands fulfill those requirements we will test them thoroughly.
We will put the testing results in this thread.

Off topic:
2 of our Academy instructors are specialized in Vests, it is not my expertise.
What I remember of it, is that the rating of our vest is HG1A-KR1+QD-PEP, I think that is about equivalent to NIJ level IIIA.
BUT, we have a plate of needle proof material in it, that holds moisture and heat inside the vest.
That also makes it very sturdy and uncomfortable to wear. New types of vests, without that material, are being tested at the moment.
Also those vests will not be Covert anymore, but Overt.
My advice would be, go to a shop and test several vests for comfort and ask safety advice from a specialists.

And now, Back on topic .


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## brightnorm

Grizzlyb,

Thank you for what I believe is a uniquely (and exhaustively) informative thread. I'm just a civilian, but I have found this subject fascinating and potentially useful. 

I do have one question. In the USA female police officers use the same weapons carried by male officers, and are trained to use them preferentially to physical contact. In your police force, after using the tactical light, at some point the officer must make contact with the subject. Since much of your work deals with physical confrontations with aggressive subjects, how do your female officers deal with what must often be a big weight/size disadvantage? 

Brightnorm


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## Grizzlyb

brightnorm said:


> Grizzlyb,
> how do your female officers deal with what must often be a big weight/size disadvantage?
> Brightnorm


Hi Brightnorm,

That answer would be very extensive and way off topic. I could write a book about it, and probably should.

Short answer, they don't.
Blinding an opponent makes it much more easy to put the cuffs on him, but when the weight/size difference is to big, they are more reluctant to go the next step. They talk a lot more and if possible will let the aggressor of with a warning...
They avoid physical confrontations and prefer to go in to "tactical mode" (i.o.w. ask for male assistance, what seems to be a smart thing to do .) 
I have been injured in fights more times then I can remember, but never found that to be a problem. (Bloody nose, bruises and skin cuts)
But female LEO's seem to have a problem with that attitude  . . . . 

That is as far as I can elaborate on that, without going completaly off topic


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## newdenny

Hi Grizzlyb,

You mentioned that two strobe lights from two persons from each side is more annoying and effective than just one. If I am by myself holding two strobe lights with my two hands shoulder width apart or stretch out (which way is better?), does this have the same effects as two persons scenario? 

Since the opponent knows that I am by myself holding two strobe lights, he would know that my location is in the middle of the two lights. Is he still able to attack me or not? Having two strobe lights means I can double the lights from 10000 lux to 20000 lux, right?
I am wondering if two 18Hz strobes would become a 36Hz strobe to the receiving party, then it would not have any effect on him? 

There is no doubt that the strobe is very effective on low/no light environment. What if I am outdoor in the middle of the day or indoor with strong ambient light, does it still works?

Did you ever consider the laser dazzler or is it too dangerous for the eye damage?

Thanks
Denny


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## Robocop

I enjoyed the study and while I am still not a fan of strobe for anything other than traffic control the reading was interesting.

I work for a dept. of over 900 Officers and have spent 16 years in street patrol. All 16 of these years has been on night shift by choice and my light is simply one of my most used tools. In recent years I found the new recruits arrived ready for the street and almost every one had the strobe feature on their lights. I have been a training officer for about 6 years and at last count have trained 28 recruits in that time at 8 weeks each.

I found that in real world usage every recruit would try to use the strobe however each one always resorted back to a single level mode for general duties. I began to study this as in theory the strobe sounded good and should have some advantages. Being a flashaholic I love all things light and if this strobe worked as well as magazines claimed I was in.

Well what I found was that many studies were performed with students or volunteers in controlled and relaxed situations. Yes it was uncomfortable and at times disorienting however would it work in real life. The training scenarios for lighting are no different than training in other areas such as hand to hand combat. The pressure points and holds worked perfectly when used on students in the classroom however when applied to a 200 lb. raving madman hopped up on crystal meth they did not work at all.....we all learned this the hard way and resorted to what really worked such as the taser or last resort good old knuckles.

The biggest weakness I have seen in actual use was the complicated series of some lights to reach various levels. I can not tell you how many recruits I have seen jump into a rapidly evolving dangerous scene and when they click their light they have strobe. This distracts other officers and the user usually freezes trying to go through the levels to find the high level. Smooth is fast and in real world usage seasoned veterans will lose some fine motor skill under fire. Yes I have been fired on and I can tell you that the more simple your equipment is the better chance you have to perform.

Maybe you have figured out a way to use strobe for your needs and I will keep an open mind as I do enjoy every advantage I can get. For now I will say that I have yet to see strobe used in an actual real world combat situation and I have been involved in many violent situations during darkness. I have been involved with swat instructors and schools at the city,county, and state level and again none of them use strobe during entries. Some I know tried to find ways to take advantage of strobe features however once the real life results began to show they abandoned the practice.

I will say that I have seen strobe used with very intoxicated people with mixed results. It seems to really confuse the sloppy passive drunks however the violent drunks were still hard to handle. For years mace or pepper spray was used with every dept. however in reality in only worked well with passive resistance. If you sprayed a violent person on various types of street drugs they simply kept fighting. Sure they could not see but could still kick, punch and bite. Many officers were injured trying to secure suspects after several sprays of mace.

We are taught to secure under control and this simply means the suspect is no longer a threat. Now a blind suspect can kill you just as fast as one with sight. In the case of a violent drunk rather than strobe I would say throw a huge wall of light on him and deploy the taser. I am not going to rush in and cuff a violent person hoping that strobe light will keep me safe. Simple fail safe tactics work and the taser has made police work much safer I feel. 

I do know that old police hate change and I am as hard to convince as anyone so again I still try keep an open mind to new advancements for police work. This study seems to be the most well thought out I have read yet however again I am curious as to the long term findings with real life violent suspects. Good read thus far and thanks for the information none the less.


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## Grizzlyb

Robocop said:


> Now a blind suspect can kill you just as fast as one with sight.



Hi Robocop,

I could easily proof You are wrong here .
Lets us step in the ring, You blindfolded and me not . . . . . just kidding.

But you seem to miss the whole point. 
You approach the idea of a strobelight as if it makes a LEO invincible and impervious to any harm.
It isn't. 
We work with these lights for the last 4 years on the street, in almost every hand to hand confrontation (low and no light).
We would never depend on training alone. We have the experience of countless LEO's working night shift and using these light on purpose to get a short tactical advantage.

For the LEO's that are used to work with it and followed the training, the advantage is proven bigger then with a normal light, no question about that.

And we use our strobe lights never by accident, it can't be switched on accidentally in strobe, it always IS in strobe. 
No difficult switches, no fine motoric skills.
That's the big difference with all the so called "tactical Lights" on the market.

Being a trainer, You should be aware of the principle behind sprays. 
They attack the eyeside of Your opponent, just to get the advantage of him being blinded and disorieted for a short instant.
They can still fight and do harm, but less then when they know where to hit or kick.

And Yes, it works better on one then on the other. But that should not be a reason not to use it?
Things like pepperspray work on 75% of the suspects. 
We have exact numbers on that. In Holland every incident is recorded by the officer. (btw. more by female officers then male)
OK, it works more on one person then the other, but it still is a big advantage when it works.


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## Grizzlyb

And please clear me on this?
you say:


Robocop said:


> For now I will say that I have yet to see strobe used in an actual real world combat situation.



And then You state:


Robocop said:


> I can not tell you how many recruits I have seen jump into a rapidly evolving dangerous scene and when they click their light they have strobe.
> This distracts other officers and the user usually freezes trying to go through the levels to find the high level.



That seems to contradict each other? Or I read it wrong.

Our officers never get distracted by using the strobe. The opposite in fact, when LEO's all learn to work with it, they will all depend on it.
The only one that will be distracted is the the one on the receiving end.


And btw, 
Most of us also started with training/coaching jobs for recruits on the street, in there normal work, but that was more work related and not tactical trainings. 
That was in the period we where still walking the streets on a dayly base. But that was not focused as specialized tactical teachers.
Alas, in that period we did not have strobe lights and had to work with the old heavy Mag"lites" 
So no experience with strobes in that period. 

But the last decade or so, personal lights came in use and things changed. . . . . .Our knowledge about it did to.
There is a world of difference between working the streets coaching young recruits, or studying tactics, developing, technical testing, training and tactical testing it under work conditions with several hundreds of collegues under all possible situations. And still being able to look at the results from all sides.
This part has been our main focus for the last 8 years, not a fleeting byproduct of our work.


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## texas cop

My flashlight is a tool as is all other equipment on the belt. I use the strobe to distract, blind or disorient drunk and/or possible violent perps. If already violent we go with other tools. We've gone over these points before. We've also gone over the difference between working in a group like Europe or solo like in America. I've seen a few blinded perps at night try to fight, but when blinded by pepper spray or a light it give a small to large advantage. I've watched one run into a brick wall at a full sprint cuffing was very easy. I only use the strobe when its in my hand and the perp is semi-violent and drunk and at night. Never by myself on an already violent perp, never during the day, never in a well illuminated area. Use is limited but its an option I enjoy having. It also never replaces training but adds an extra dimension to our training. Not really wanting to preach but what Grizzlyb has given us here is another tool with research to use. Good,bad or a waste is up to the individual office. My strobe is part of my duty light and not another item to my already heavy duty rig. Strobe also works for letting those buddies know yes that's me over here. I use it but its use is also limited. Thanks Grizzlyb.


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## Robocop

When I said I have never seen it used in a real world situation I was speaking of hundreds of high risk entries. I have never seen a tactical team get in position and purposely use strobe. I have seen it used on accident when an officer activated their light during a high risk situation.

Maybe the training is the key for your department. It seems as if your using the strobe feature much more during routine duties and maybe it is simply a matter of getting used to it. Do you use the strobe to search a building if you know an armed suspect is inside? And on felony suspect traffic stops would your officers always use strobe 100 percent of the time?

As a trainer I see so many young officers get very bad habits based on nothing more than something they read in a magazine or by what they heard was the latest greatest gadget. It takes experience as well as trial and error to know what works and what does not. What may work in the classroom or fooling around with your buddies may actually get you killed when it is for real.

The story of the blind suspect was an actual story as I had a friend who was actually killed by a blinded suspect. The suspect was maced however was far from under control. The officer closed the gap to handcuff and never saw that little 380 handgun that "blind" suspect had under his shirt.

We do use of force documents as well with every arrest and this is designed to keep track of what works and what does not. The force we track is only physical contact such as any impact weapon or even soft hand control. Strobe lighting tactics would not be recorded as they are not considered physical force.

I will follow along with any new tactics and I do hope this tactic continues to evolve for your department. I want to ask have you used or actually observed others use a strobe during an actual high risk entry with known armed suspects. Have you seen strobe have any effect on a highly combative suspect? I am curious if any officer anywhere can give me a real life example of strobe having a major effect during an actual situation.

I am not talking about routine traffic stops where it may make someone dizzy but an actual real life high risk situation. Strobe may be very effective during routine patrol however some officers are exposed to real violence much more than others. If strobe actually works on violent suspects that is great and I want to find a way to use it. If it does not work then I do not want officers thinking they can depend on it and they forget the basics of what does work.


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## brightnorm

Grizzlyb,

Thanks for the answer. I know a female officer who will find that very interesting.

Brightnorm


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## Chevy-SS

Grizzlyb said:


> Hi Robocop,........I could easily proof You are wrong here .
> Lets us step in the ring, You blindfolded and me not . . . . . just kidding....



LOL, that is an excellent answer, and I realize it was made with respect and good-natured humor.  Robocop had some good points in his posting.

Many thanks to you guys (*Grizzlyb *and all the other LEO's) for keeping this very interesting & informative thread going. I have been avidly following along since inception....... :thumbsup:


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## Grizzlyb

Robocop said:


> I am curious if any officer anywhere can give me a real life example of strobe having a major effect during an actual situation.



When You read the thread (sorry, I do realize it is a lot)
You will get your question answered many times.

We ARE using it on a daily base and we HAVE countless "real violence" incidents where the use of our tactical light made the difference during arrest.
99.99 % of the arrests in Holland are made without the threat of a gun.
Only when we see a gun/knive etc (and are threatend with it) we can pull our own gun, and we don't have tasers.

So all arrests have to be made the hard way, in hand to hand confrontations.
That made us try to get every advancement there is, and is one of the reasons we are perfecting other methods.
Blinding and disorienting your opponent is very help full.
When you don't believe that, it's ok with us.
Everyone has to play there own game in their own situations.

Maybe traffic stops count as an arrest in your department. With us, a traffic stop is a traffic stop.
We would NEVER use a strobe on a person driving a car in traffic.
That would be pretty dangerous for the driver and all other traffic, including yourself.
Maybe in other countries it is used in traffic, not over here.

Hand to hand combat arrests is where it is proven to work. You can't get more "real violence" than that.
But as we already discussed many times, You'll have to work with the lights we developed, and have to learn how to use it.
Thats where the trainings are for. 
The less you train, the less the results will be.

LEO's that think they know it all and don't need constant training, are a danger for themselves and other LEO's and should look for an other job.
(expressing my opinion here )


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## newdenny

Hi Grizzlyb,

Did you miss my post? :thinking:

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...se-of-Strobe&p=4310256&highlight=#post4310256


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## Grizzlyb

Hi newdenny, 
Di you miss my answer?

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk


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## Robocop

Traffic stops here are not an arrest unless the driver is wanted on warrants or is found with narcotics inside his vehicle. I was trying to ask if your department teaches the use of strobe when approaching a vehicle with a known threat inside rather than a routine traffic stop.....something like a felony traffic stop here.

I think I was reading your original post wrong as I got the impression you were using strobe in every situation such as an armed suspect advancing on you. I can see where it could be taught to be helpful in routine patrol. It also may be frowned upon here due to the amount of violence in my department. I had 4 shootings in my area just last week with two of those resulting in homicide.....that is average and it is not uncommon here to be fired upon as many criminals have handguns as well as assault rifles. I have been stabbed....shot at multiple times...drug by a car....and yes have had to use deadly force on a man trying to stab a nurse with this force resulting in the suspects death. I really hope no officer anywhere would use a strobe as an offensive means of protection when faced with a suspect with a knife or firearm.

It may also be a different line of thinking as we are trained to always expect gunfire and I honestly do not think any officer would attempt to subdue gunfire with a strobe of any kind. When I search a building here I am honestly very likely to encounter an armed suspect rather than a harmless drunk. This to me means that I enter that situation with the best tools I have and that is a firearm with a simple light source and my back up officers. 

So again I was somehow thinking your area officers were thinking that a strobe light would be used during real life armed encounters. I know the taser is effective however when faced with an armed suspect I would never use the taser and always go with my lethal force option. This is the way we are trained and from your last response it clears it up for me as you said you would do the same. I really must have understood your study wrong and sorry for the confusion none the less.

Keep working with your tactics and I will follow along as to maybe find something I can use locally as well. I did a little reading last night on the military and their use of light. I found very little however they seem to be testing a laser light version of strobe. I read that they found it much more effective when narrowed down to the form of a laser as it was more concentrated on the actual suspect and not others around. Interesting and I am now curious if a similar laser could be adapted to a duty light. The power source would have to be huge as the military set up I saw was on a vehicle with huge power supply.

Anyway thanks again for the time and the information. I always worry when these strobe threads come around as I do not want young officers to get the wrong idea. Some may read these threads (just like the magazine articles) and believe that strobe will stop an attacker. It tends to give young officers a sense of security and when they are involved in a real life deadly confrontation they go to their strobe as it is familiar when they should be going with deadly force.

I try to train that attackers come in various shapes and sizes as well as various levels of attack. Once you know what you are dealing with you can step down your level of force and maybe strobe can fit in somewhere at the lower end. Until you know what level an attacker is we are taught to start high on the force ladder. Now this is an attack such as a suspect trying to strike you and run away (lower scale) vs a suspect laying on top of you in a dark alley trying to take your gun and kill you. (higher end)

It seems like your department has actually included the strobe tactic as a taught method and I am curious where it fits in on your departments use of force ladder? Is it on the lower end such as officer presence or verbal commands or is it not considered force at all? When any suspect decides to use force of any kind are you taught to still deploy the strobe tactic? I was curious how your officers react to a suspect who suddenly clenches his fist and takes a fighting stance? Are you taught to use strobe in that situation as well?


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## newdenny

Hi Grizzlyb,

I really cannot see, are you pointing the strobe at me? Could you send me the link of your reply post? Thanks


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## Chevy-SS

Robocop said:


> ....Keep working with your tactics and I will follow along as to maybe find something I can use locally as well. I did a little reading last night on the military and their use of light. I found very little however they seem to be testing a laser light version of strobe. I read that they found it much more effective when narrowed down to the form of a laser as it was more concentrated on the actual suspect and not others around. Interesting and I am now curious if a similar laser could be adapted to a duty light. The power source would have to be huge as the military set up I saw was on a vehicle with huge power supply......



This type of strobe device appears to already exist, called the "*Dazzler*" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dazzler_(weapon) 

It looks like a handheld device. _From Wikipedia, "The dazzler is a non-lethal weapon intended to cause temporary blindness or disorientation........"_


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## bluemax_1

Robocop said:


> Traffic stops here are not an arrest unless the driver is wanted on warrants or is found with narcotics inside his vehicle. I was trying to ask if your department teaches the use of strobe when approaching a vehicle with a known threat inside rather than a routine traffic stop.....something like a felony traffic stop here.
> 
> I think I was reading your original post wrong as I got the impression you were using strobe in every situation such as an armed suspect advancing on you. I can see where it could be taught to be helpful in routine patrol. It also may be frowned upon here due to the amount of violence in my department. I had 4 shootings in my area just last week with two of those resulting in homicide.....that is average and it is not uncommon here to be fired upon as many criminals have handguns as well as assault rifles. I have been stabbed....shot at multiple times...drug by a car....and yes have had to use deadly force on a man trying to stab a nurse with this force resulting in the suspects death. I really hope no officer anywhere would use a strobe as an offensive means of protection when faced with a suspect with a knife or firearm.
> 
> It may also be a different line of thinking as we are trained to always expect gunfire and I honestly do not think any officer would attempt to subdue gunfire with a strobe of any kind. When I search a building here I am honestly very likely to encounter an armed suspect rather than a harmless drunk. This to me means that I enter that situation with the best tools I have and that is a firearm with a simple light source and my back up officers.
> 
> So again I was somehow thinking your area officers were thinking that a strobe light would be used during real life armed encounters. I know the taser is effective however when faced with an armed suspect I would never use the taser and always go with my lethal force option. This is the way we are trained and from your last response it clears it up for me as you said you would do the same. I really must have understood your study wrong and sorry for the confusion none the less.
> 
> Keep working with your tactics and I will follow along as to maybe find something I can use locally as well. I did a little reading last night on the military and their use of light. I found very little however they seem to be testing a laser light version of strobe. I read that they found it much more effective when narrowed down to the form of a laser as it was more concentrated on the actual suspect and not others around. Interesting and I am now curious if a similar laser could be adapted to a duty light. The power source would have to be huge as the military set up I saw was on a vehicle with huge power supply.
> 
> Anyway thanks again for the time and the information. I always worry when these strobe threads come around as I do not want young officers to get the wrong idea. Some may read these threads (just like the magazine articles) and believe that strobe will stop an attacker. It tends to give young officers a sense of security and when they are involved in a real life deadly confrontation they go to their strobe as it is familiar when they should be going with deadly force.
> 
> I try to train that attackers come in various shapes and sizes as well as various levels of attack. Once you know what you are dealing with you can step down your level of force and maybe strobe can fit in somewhere at the lower end. Until you know what level an attacker is we are taught to start high on the force ladder. Now this is an attack such as a suspect trying to strike you and run away (lower scale) vs a suspect laying on top of you in a dark alley trying to take your gun and kill you. (higher end)
> 
> It seems like your department has actually included the strobe tactic as a taught method and I am curious where it fits in on your departments use of force ladder? Is it on the lower end such as officer presence or verbal commands or is it not considered force at all? When any suspect decides to use force of any kind are you taught to still deploy the strobe tactic? I was curious how your officers react to a suspect who suddenly clenches his fist and takes a fighting stance? Are you taught to use strobe in that situation as well?



Yep, we had this discussion in this thread. Evidently, the average types of encounters there are not quite the same as over here in the US. He mentioned the number of firearm related incidents in years and it was less than we might see in a rough week.

I've tried my own testing with a strobing light and TBH, I find it most useful on belligerent drunks. Not attacking, violent drunks mind you, but the belligerent ones who try to advance on you. A quick blast with a high intensity strobe (20,000 candela or higher) disorients them a LOT.

As Ken J Good also mentioned, because the threat of deadly force is apparently more common in the US, the tactics and training in most US departments, approach distances etc. are different too. You're never sure who might be armed, or have warrants where they're willing to risk your life as well as their own to not get caught.

In Grizzlyb's posts, he mentioned that a lot of their encounters are belligerent folks who aren't too concerned with swinging on LEOs because their laws are exceptionally lenient on suspects injuring LEOs. I call these types of folks 'casual brawlers'. They're like a lot of bar brawlers in that they'll try to hurt a non-LEO target or "throw you a beating" if they can, but they're not exactly going all out to kill you. 

Aside from the stupidly drunk, we don't get as many of those types attacking LEOs here because they know they'd get the book thrown at them. OTOH, Grizzlyb's mentioned people getting less than a slap on the wrist for putting LEOs there in the hospital during an arrest of an aggressive drunk. According to him, their judges view LEO injuries as part of the job-related hazards. That's kind of like declaring Open Season on LEOs. "Feel free to take a swing. If you're lucky, you'll get away with it. If you're unlucky, you might get some lumps of your own and spend a night in jail. If you put one of them in the hospital, no worries, that's part of their job. You won't get years of jailtime for it. If the LEOs badly injure YOU though, then you might have an excessive use of force case".

At least over here, the judicial system backs up the men and women putting their butts on the line. Aside from the ones who are too stupidly drunk to realize the consequences, it's the idiots who feel that they really have a lot to lose that try anything.

With less deterrence there, there's less motivation not to take a swing 'for the hell of it'.

Different situations and circumstances, different approaches and tactics, different requirements.


Max


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## Robocop

I have always been interested in the tactics used by other countries and I agree that each area surely has different tactics that are best used. I am 4 years away from retirement here and have strongly considered moving out of country and try to find police work there.....New Zealand sounds nice however their patrol duties are vastly different from what I have read thus far.

When I think about strobe tactics I honestly can see where it could cause a suspect to hesitate allowing an officer that extra second to gain the advantage. I would be more concerned with closing the gap afterward and would try to have other tools for a more physical effect such as my baton...taser....or even fists. 

When I see the military trying to shrink the field of view of the strobe it seems to me they would do that so as to have less effect to those closing the gap advancing on the suspect. In my earlier post I spoke of young officers activating strobe by accident causing a delay to the officers reaction. I was among a group of officers trying to approach a very violent suspect when this happened with one of my recruits.

Now I do see where constant exposure to strobe (such as Grizzlyb has) would make a big difference in all officers reaction as they are used to it. Im my situation here I was maybe 15 feet from the suspect and he was focused on my rookie and never saw me. I was a passenger with my rookie driving and as he stopped the car the suspect was focused on two more officers on scene and never saw me exit. I flanked the suspect and was running hard straight towards him as my rookie threw the car in park and also advanced.

I was suddenly distracted with the strobe that my rookie forgot to change modes on his light after we worked a traffic accident 30 minutes earlier. He later said he intended to just light the suspect up as he was a robbery suspect thought to be armed. He was doing everything correct...strong commands from behind cover....weapon drawn...and a clear backdrop behind the suspect if he had to fire his weapon. No crossfire as I was running hard from the suspects left side with intentions to simply flatten this guy. I had the tactical advantage of surprise...speed...and size (if you have not seen me I am a muscle head..ha)

When I saw the strobe it distracted me and I looked to my rear removing my eyes from the suspect. I heard the rookie curse and begin to switch his modes but he found low....then finally high. When I looked back to the suspect I lost that surprise element and chose not to close the distance. Thankfully he chose not to test my 40 cal friend and followed my commands. I am also very thankful he did not choose to grab the 9mm he had in his waistband as I had no cover.

Keep in mind this all happened within maybe 4 seconds but surely enough time to be killed. If I would have been alone I never would have tried the rushing approach. I was expecting a wall of light from my partner as the other two officers already also had the suspect well lit and I was on his blind side. The other officers also later said they were distracted and the whole situation just did not go well.

Needless to say we all gave the rookie a hard time after however he did learn from this and the whole point is to teach them to stay alive. Maybe constant training is the key however in my area the violent encounters are far greater than the mild ones and as such we need to train for different scenarios. I think the key with Grizzlyb and his co-workers may be that they are all on the same page and expect to see strobe much more often.

I really do not think my department will ever adopt this tactic nor do I feel that many others in the U.S. will do so as well. It is a hard tactic to embrace in violent prone areas however I do enjoy learning how other departments find uses for any new tactic. Now I may be some day proven wrong as I well remember a time when we all laughed at the taser thinking that it would be very hard to use correctly when in fact it is an amazing tool.

In every low light combat class I have experienced the main focus has been using your light as a tool to identify a threat and to also clearly identify any weapons held by the suspect as well as your backdrop for civilians. We are taught bright wall of light with the light activated in their face and off in their face so as not to track your movements. Keep that suspect well lit so you and other officers can see what they are doing clearly. 

The most confusing issue to me with always deploying strobe first would be simply target identification. If I have a suspect lit up with strobe I can imagine it would be hard for me to clearly see if he has any weapons and if so then to obtain a clear sight picture to fire my weapon at center mass clearly in between strobes. It seems to me that it would pose the same confusion to officers as it did to the suspect thus my thinking as to why the military is using laser strobes for less effect on those confronting the threat.

Now again maybe training with strobe daily is the key in learning to work around the strobe effect and make it more effective. Again for me personally I do not wish to take the chance with any suspect and would opt for a simple high level of light as it is what I am trained on.

I also try to imagine if our car overhead lights were strobe. On every traffic stop we activate our overhead flood lights that simply throw a huge amount of constant light in the suspects mirrors. Often they never see you approach and it works very well....same concept as the moveable spotlight on some patrol car drivers door. I can imagine how distracting it would be for me if I had strobing flood lights and I am trying to watch the drivers hands upon approach.

It seems to me the same effect would occur on every encounter if all officers used strobe. How can you safely track the suspects movements or weapons held if everyone is using a disorienting strobe. This thread is very interesting as I am trying to imagine an entire department using strobe as their first main level of light. Very interesting to me however also a very foreign concept to understand.


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## Grizzlyb

Hi Robocop,

I assume you have read this thread?
We where very explicit about when we use our lights and what for.
It is described in detail many times. 
With a slow frequency there is a big percentage of "out time".

There could be a small possibility for an opponent to move without detecting.
That's 1 of the reasons we prefer a fast strobe.
This faster strobe is almost as if you use a normal light, but there is just a smaller "out time".
You will detect about anything with this strobelight as with a normal light.
A dedicated big search light is probably the best light for searching, a dedicated tactical light will be better for tactical reasons, true.
But we where designing the best possible tactical stroblight with which you could still do all the other tasks reasonable good.

When you read this thread, You will understand that we indeed use this light also for searching. 
Just put the high mode on and not the strobe, pretty simple?
The only advantage is, and this has been said over and over, You don't have to search for a tactical strobe mode if you need it.

With this light, most times you have time enough to chose what ever mode you want. Perfect.

99% we have to arrest people while they are violent, drunk, resist arrest, or just look for an opening to hit or headbut you. 
Thats the biggest part of our job. Just plain hand to hand fights.
Specially in small places like rooms or busses/trams/trains etc, where You don't want to use pepperspray, a tactical strobe has proven to be very usefull.
The way we work is obviously different than police work in many other countries. 
We don't go from door to door killing insurgents or taking out snipers on rooftops.

Talking about Tactical Lights, many oldschool LEO's relate this object instantly to a gun. 
Google on the word and You will find guns, guns and more guns together with TL.

We don't make this connection. And we found, that many LEO's have a hard time to grasp that concept.
Maybe the way of doing our jobs is to different. 

What I said here, is already been said by me and others many times in this thread. 
I really don't want to keep repeating this, so I strongly advice to read this thread more thoroughly.

BTW, Bluemax explained it more complete than I ever could.
Standing in your place, and doing your work under those conditions, I probably would use our TL a lot less and my gun a bit more.
I can understand that 100%. A lot more LEO's die over there than overhere.


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## Grizzlyb

newdenny said:


> Hi Grizzlyb,
> 
> I really cannot see, are you pointing the strobe at me? Could you send me the link of your reply post? Thanks



You're right. I did answer, but strangly it is gone.?
You ask about 8 questions in 1 post. Please keep in mind that this is not my native language. Don't ask to much, coarse it consumes much of my time formulating an answer and translating it correctly. Small mistakes in translation can be misunderstood by others. That again forces me to answer even more questions.
So befor asking Be sure the questions hasn't been asked and answerd before, or is not strictly nessecary to be answered at all.

Having a light in each hand would probably be very dangerous. We keep our weaponhand free at all times. 
I am right handed, so my TL is in my left hand. (it also makes my weaker lefthand into a stronger hand, which has been written here before.)

In bright daylight it works less than in No/Low light (but again PLEASE read this thread, it has been said before)

We have no experience with Dazzler type devices. 
From what we know about it, there could be a bigger risk of eyedamage.


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## Xacto

Grizzlyb said:


> Hi Robocop,
> Thats the biggest part of our job. Just plain hand to hand fights.
> Specially in small places like rooms or busses/trams/trains etc, where You don't want to use pepperspray, a tactical strobe has proven to be very usefull.
> The way we work is obviously different than police work in many other countries.
> [...]
> Maybe the way of doing our jobs is to different.


As a civilian highly interested in police work on both sides of the pond I too want to chime in with the realization that the tactics, maybe even the general mindset can not be compared (at least not on all levels). From personal talks, reports etc. I guess that many if not most german (and european?) police officers go to retirement without ever having to use their gun/deadly force or even coming close. Pepperspray, usefull batons, wearable vests and radios were implemented with the regular street cops in german within the last 15-20 years. Tasers are (to my knowledge) only used by special response teams.

Cheers
Thorsten


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## Grizzlyb

Xacto said:


> As a civilian highly interested in police work on both sides of the pond I too want to chime in with the realization that the tactics, maybe even the general mindset can not be compared (at least not on all levels). From personal talks, reports etc. I guess that many if not most german (and european?) police officers go to retirement without ever having to use their gun/deadly force or even coming close. Pepperspray, usefull batons, wearable vests and radios were implemented with the regular street cops in german within the last 15-20 years. Tasers are (to my knowledge) only used by special response teams.
> 
> Cheers
> Thorsten



Thanks Thorsten,
Your are correct on all points.
We where several times in Berlin to give trainings to other german Police Instructors.
From them we heard the same, and that goes for the Belgium and Austrian police to.


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## KITROBASKIN

Robocop said:


> I have always been interested in the tactics used by other countries and I agree that each area surely has different tactics that are best used.



Thank You Robocop for an excellent post giving another American LEO perspective. Your best yet.

To those reading this thread who are not Law Enforcement: It is not advised by some to use strobe on strangers. Their resentment may take a form quite injurious to you. That's all I want to say about non-LEO's, because this is a LEO oriented thread.


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## Robocop

Grizzlyb I read the study and as I said I believe I was misunderstanding a few points however now it is a little more clear. Maybe I can visit someday and see first hand how your department has managed to find a use for strobe other than traffic details.

I did read that you found certain speeds of the strobe more effective and most likely having a task specific light designed for you has helped. I do not know of any strobe lights here that are adjustable with the strobe speed however I am happy to see that most of the newer ones have the ability to lock out strobe mode so as not to activate it by accident.

I am trying to imagine how it would work to have a faster strobe vs a slower strobe and if I can find a way to have this as an advantage on the street then I would like to do so as well. First problem here with this would be to ensure every officer was trained correctly. I can imagine that a department with one thousand officers would be hard to convert much less some of the biggest cities with 30k officers.

I believe for strobe to work over here it would have to be proven effective for our specific needs. I know you said that there is a small chance a suspect could make some movements unseen using strobe however when in a deadly situation that small chance can get one killed. I can see how the many routine scuffles you are involved with can benefit from strobe but again your training is the key to that.Now in any situation with any kind of lighting at night there are always variables that are dangerous.

In reality it is nice to see a department put so much effort into a new tactic and again maybe someday I can see firsthand how it has managed to help in your duties. As a flashaholic first it is always neat to think of something I enjoy so much being more useful in my work. My light is already one of my most used tools and one tool I do not mind spending money on to have a dependable tool as well as my firearm. (H&K USP-40)

I can learn new tactics however as with any old officer tried and true tactics are hard to abandon. Funny story here but I well remember being a die hard supporter of the old incandescent lights for police work. I replaced bulbs by the hundreds and kept a charger ready for that power hungry light at all times but I refused to abandon the wonderful color and familiar nature of that old incandescent.

Slowly LED lighting progressed as well as tint and when some of the heavy hitters arrived of course I had to have one being a flashaholic. My plan was to keep the LED in my duty bag and play with it some times at work. Well as soon as I realized the output was better with lower battery drain and no blown bulbs just when you needed it most I began using it more often. Today it is the incandescent that is in my duty bag and I have several excellent LED power houses for my main light. The choices today are amazing and there are some excellent LED lights for officers to choose from.....and the tint is improving at a huge pace as well. So as bad as I hated to admit it I converted to LED and never looked back.

I do still have those old 13 volt Wolf-Eyes D36 incan lamps and as much as I like them they are simply often out performed. They are however very fun to mess around with and bring back some great old memories...ha


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## Grizzlyb

Robocop said:


> I know you said that there is a small chance a suspect could make some movements unseen using strobe however when in a deadly situation that small chance can get one killed.



Hi Robocop,

Again You seem to misunderstand stuff.
We found that on SLOW frequencies, there was this problem. That is why we DON'T use that kind of strobe, but that faster strobe.
With the faster strobe frequency that problem was solved. Thats is why we did so many years of testing and development.
We are specialists that don't take for granted what manufacturers give us and call Tactical. Most of these lights have nothing tactical about it, and fall in the categorie "Tacticool".
We totally agree with you that this can be dangerous for LEO's, that don't know enough about it, or have not had the right training and material. 

You would be very welcome to follow a training with us. That is a 2 way win. It is always great to learn from each other.
Our training programs used to be developed for every region apart.
Our region was just 6000 LEO's. We have 43 instructors to do that job.
But every year, from all regions, all Dutch (and some German) teachers/instructors have a 1 or 2 day meeting to learn new developments from each other.

Since start 2013 Holland is reorganized from 25 separate regions to 1 police force with about 45.000 active police officers.
They ALL get the same training and instruction all over the country.
Apart from some local specific police problems (big town/small town related) we have the same laws so the same trainings and tactics go for all LEO's.
No big deal in a small country like Holland.


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## Robocop

I have been to training in other states however never anything close to out of my country. In most of my learning it seems police are pretty much similar everywhere you travel. The newest trend in the U.S. seems to be cameras mounted everywhere. We have cameras inside our patrol cars running 24 hrs as well as outside cameras on our vehicles. We have cameras on our tasers that activate every time the safety is released. Many here are even going as far as adding cameras to officers uniforms to monitor everything.

I will check in to this thread at times as I am curious to see the longer term effects of your studies with strobe. Can you adjust the rate of the strobe at random or is it a set and fixed rate? This thread has me thinking on the effects of strobe and rather than the speed of the strobe I am curious if the color or even tint would change the results.

As human eyes are so sensitive to green I wonder if a bright green strobe would make any difference. Of course it would be very strange to get used to that but it would look very cool...ha

The U.S. population is also very eager to place a lawsuit on officers for anything they can. This sounds crazy however if we were to try strobe here I can almost guarantee someone would file a lawsuit claiming the strobe made them sick or made them have a seizure. Or if we had an incident where an officer fires there weapon (resulting in property damage or an unarmed suspect) while using strobe it would be easy for lawsuit claiming the officer was unable to obtain the proper sight picture due to the distracting strobe. It sounds crazy but it is very true these days.

I had a woman try to file a lawsuit on me once for pulling her from a burning car claiming I hurt her neck when doing so...ha imagine that. Good luck with your continued study on strobe and even though I have no plans to adopt strobe tactics for my duties I will keep up with this thread for further information.


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## kaichu dento

Robocop said:


> I had a woman try to file a lawsuit on me once for pulling her from a burning car claiming I hurt her neck when doing so...ha imagine that.


People like her and the lawyers who activate them are ruining the planet. 

Sorry you have to deal with that kind of thing, but I guess it's a sign of the times.

Been enjoying the thread, but just had to make mention that many of us have always been supporters of law enforcement and I appreciate what you guys do.


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## Grizzlyb

Thanks Kaichu Dento,

That is much appreciated. 

Sometimes we start to forget that the large majority may be silent, but is still very supportive  .
And thats the people we are putting our lives on the line for.


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## MarkIAlbert

Has anyone customized a Surefire with a TIR for this purpose? Has anyone come up with a list of lights that are close to what Grizzlyb is advocating?


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## meflash

Very practical and informative article. Different from most other tactical flashlight articles. Thank you vey much.


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## Keely

ALL of this is enlightening. I prefer to KISS! Momentary/Push On switch for me.

Keels


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## medic2491

I am new to the forum and I want to thank everyone here for more information than I even know what to do with. This thread, in particular, has been of great help to me. I am working on developing some defensive training for non-LEO first responders and have been trying to figure out if, how, and why we should incorporate tactical light use. This thread and Grizzlyb's study has shown that a TL could be a great solution for first responders looking for a nonviolent way to escape a violent encounter. 

The only problem I'm having now is finding a light _available in the US _that meets the criteria Grizzlyb set out. Does anyone have any leads on that?


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## RI Chevy

:welcome:

Welcome to the forum!


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## gabe.trout

Very interesting info, thanks for the write up.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2


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## tonijedi

Thank you very much for this thread. I was browsing the internet looking for a LEO flashlight (not for me but for a friend) and I bumped in this amazing thread.
I am from Portugal and, although I'm no LEO, I can see the general working conditions for the police here are very similar to the Dutch ones.
Many thanks to the OP specially for his patience to answer the same questions dozens of times  it took long to read everything but it was definitely an interesting thread. As my friend won't be working as a "normal" policeman (with uniform and belt, etc.) maybe he will need a smaller flashlight, with just a CR123. Any flashlight on that size that complies with most of what the OP states for a TL?


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## RI Chevy

:welcome: 

Welcome to the Forum!


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## techwg

Any idea of the strobe hz on the Fenix PD35? I know there are two phases of strobing, one faster than the other. Does having two alternating speeds create a better effect?


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## tonijedi

techwg said:


> Any idea of the strobe hz on the Fenix PD35? I know there are two phases of strobing, one faster than the other. Does having two alternating speeds create a better effect?


I read the manual but couldn't find the Hz. From just looking and the frequencies it seems the slow one is too slow according to OP's specifications. It also didn't seem to have a better effect that just the fast rate (I just tried it on me again).
Fenix PD35 is a nice flashlight but not that much "tactical", the 2 switches completely ruin that purpose.


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## Tjin

I have a non-flash light question. I noticed you mentioning using a retrainer/lanyard to keep the light so you can cuff somebody without lossing the light. Lanyards have a habbit of getting twisted and tangles after continues use when both sides are attached to something. This means it could get in the way of the switch or make it harder to draw the light. A swivel would make it less of a problem, but does not solve this problem completely. A lanyard can also be a entanglement hazard when crawling or other movements and even pose a strangle hazard during a hand fight. Do you think these dangers I mentioned are relavant and what is your solution to this?


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## tobrien

thank you for the info regarding strobe frequency!


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## Grizzlyb

Hi Tjin,

The dangers You mention are absolutaly relavant. Good thinking.
We have the same sort of solution with our pepperspray. 







It is a very short spiral cord, just enough to be able to stretch Your arm.
So far we never had any problem with entanglement hazards when crawling or hand to hand combat. 
But just to be on the safe side we made sure that the cord is not strong enough to strangle a person. It has a low break point.
Funny thing was, that for that possibility we discarded the expansive solutions (where to good) and came up with a cheaper cord and a small SS ring for the attachment.
It is strong enough to hold the light and will break when to much force is applied.
The thing we will improve next, is to make it swivel. As I said, Good thinking mate


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## newdenny

Hi Grizzlyb,

Happy New Year! Is the second tactical light out yet?


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## Grizzlyb

Thanks and the same friend, 
 We'll check on the guys working on that, and report back here, when more info is available.


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## brightnorm

tonijedi said:


> ...Fenix PD35 is a nice flashlight but not that much "tactical", the 2 switches completely ruin that purpose.


You can set it on turbo, and it will always come on at that level with a tailcap push.

Brightnorm


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## 1911litup

As the others stated, thank you for taking the time to put this information out there! I found it very interesting.


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## Billbo

Thanks for the huge of useful informations in this thread :thumbsup:


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## Sekon

Great thread, great information!
Thanks


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## NavyDavy

Grizzlyb thank you for a great thread. I just the entire thread post by post, yes it took a couple hours. Your work on strobes is beneficial and I enjoyed reading it. I can understand the tactical advantage of the strobe for hand-to-hand combat. But here in the US I am glad we have Tasers, they save injuries to all parties involved. I beleive you would like them too if given the chance.


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## Grizzlyb

NavyDavy said:


> Grizzlyb thank you for a great thread. I just the entire thread post by post, yes it took a couple hours. Your work on strobes is beneficial and I enjoyed reading it. I can understand the tactical advantage of the strobe for hand-to-hand combat. But here in the US I am glad we have Tasers, they save injuries to all parties involved. I beleive you would like them too if given the chance.



I'd give a month wager for it to have the Dutch Police outfitted with Tasers


----------



## Dario Morelli

Hi, I've recently been chosen by the Company I work for to expand our product line to include tactical flashlights, and we are intended to make high-end products for the professionals. 
Now I'm doing some research by myself to be ahead of the production schedule, and until now I never found any real expert on this subject matter (I know a lot about optics and a bit of electronics, but I know nothing about the actual use of a tactical flashlight). I would be very happy to continue this discussion in public, but I think I can't because I don't want to expose the Company, so *Grizzlyb*, it would be great if we exchange some words via PMs(I will try to send you one but probably I can't because of my post-count). 
I will also talk to my boss about this forum and maybe I can say some news about it in the future.


----------



## RI Chevy

Welcome to the Forum! :welcome:


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## Grizzlyb

Hi Dario,

No problem. 
Always good to see Company's work together with professionals in the field..
I'll expect your PM when you reached the correct posts-count


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## Dario Morelli

Thank you all, In the meantime I will read again all this thread and begin to lurk the rest of the forum in search for all the information I need.. I hope to design a product on par with the premise! 
This is a really strange kind of product because is one of the many that people like to build for themselves, do experiments and we all are in a very steep phase of the evolution of the flashlights.. everyone is trying to make the product that appeals to most people possible, with the latest gimmick in the design the latest name in the components... instead (I think) here they are trying to make really specific products based on the needs of the many professionals(as we usually do), so I think your study is perfect to develop a really good tactical light, and I hope more people like you are doing similar thing in other fields, let's say that until now I found very few people that use scientific methods to collect data to make their job better.


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## Javora

Grizzlyb made some excellent points however I do question the usefulness of a strobe for more than a second or two with tactical engagement in some situations. A strobe should be used only in the process of apprehending a combative subject. Use a strobe too soon and your likely to needlessly escalate the situation. I've been in law enforcement for 17 years with over 10 on the night shift, so I can appreciate a good flashlight to work with. A lot has to deal with the subject you are dealing with at the moment.

As Grizzlyb mentions intoxicated subjects are more susceptible to strobe lights. Older subjects are also more susceptible due to the fact that as people age, their eyes need more time to adjust to changes in light. Younger non-intoxicated subjects however seem to be able to fight through these effects a lot easier. In situations with younger subjects, the light should always be used in combination with other control techniques such as a Tazer or CS/OC gas. In fact a light/Tazer combo IMHO is ideal since the first reaction a subject usually makes to a strobe light is to raise their hand in front of their face. This can help reduce unintended injuries from a probe striking the subjects face or eyes. Injuries that can happen if the subject tries to dodge a Tazer strike.

Having a flashlight set first to strobe might not be an ideal setting. An officer needing a little bit of light while not announcing the officer's approach to a city block should be paramount. Having to press the head of the flashlight into something while they click through to the correct setting can waste critical time. This may cause officers to carry a second light of their choosing and leave the standard issue light in the patrol car.

One rear switch is ideal, maybe a press and hold to go from off (or any mode for that matter) to strobe directly. Something with memory that remembers the last mode used. Lastly be able to withstand a drop from about 10 to 12 feet. Anyone who has dropped their light while climbing down from a tractor trailer in the dark after a search knows what I'm talking about.

All in all, Grizzlyb made an excellent report.


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## Grizzlyb

Javora said:


> Grizzlyb made some excellent points however I do question the usefulness of a strobe for more than a second or two with tactical engagement in some situations. A strobe should be used only in the process of apprehending a combative subject. Use a strobe too soon and your likely to needlessly escalate the situation. I've been in law enforcement for 17 years with over 10 on the night shift, so I can appreciate a good flashlight to work with. A lot has to deal with the subject you are dealing with at the moment.
> 
> As Grizzlyb mentions intoxicated subjects are more susceptible to strobe lights. Older subjects are also more susceptible due to the fact that as people age, their eyes need more time to adjust to changes in light. Younger non-intoxicated subjects however seem to be able to fight through these effects a lot easier. In situations with younger subjects, the light should always be used in combination with other control techniques such as a Tazer or CS/OC gas. In fact a light/Tazer combo IMHO is ideal since the first reaction a subject usually makes to a strobe light is to raise their hand in front of their face. This can help reduce unintended injuries from a probe striking the subjects face or eyes. Injuries that can happen if the subject tries to dodge a Tazer strike.
> 
> Having a flashlight set first to strobe might not be an ideal setting. An officer needing a little bit of light while not announcing the officer's approach to a city block should be paramount. Having to press the head of the flashlight into something while they click through to the correct setting can waste critical time. This may cause officers to carry a second light of their choosing and leave the standard issue light in the patrol car.
> 
> One rear switch is ideal, maybe a press and hold to go from off (or any mode for that matter) to strobe directly. Something with memory that remembers the last mode used. Lastly be able to withstand a drop from about 10 to 12 feet. Anyone who has dropped their light while climbing down from a tractor trailer in the dark after a search knows what I'm talking about.
> 
> All in all, Grizzlyb made an excellent report.




Hi Javora,

Good observations.
We would not advice to use a tactical light on a person that we wouldn't arrest in the first place, or was cooperating freely with our instructions.

In practice it works very well to use a Strobe as a "build-up" in force.
First direct the strobe to a point on his/her belly and give directions to what the suspect has to do.
Like the command "show your hands". When the suspect does not act properly you can build-up the force a little by raising your voice, put the strobe directly in his eyes and demand more firmly. Many times the suspect understands, that things are getting more serious and will give in.

You are right in not putting you flashlight in strobe setting first. Put it in low mode and scale up if need be.
This equipment however is a Tactical Device, that can also be used as a flashlight.
In the 42 years on the street I have yet to encounter a situation that I need a normal light mode and the situation is so critical that I don't have the time to switch to that mode. Any other light can probably start-up in a wrong mode at the wrong time, but a tactical light never gets it wrong.
Use it tactical, thats what it is build for.

Question;
Why do you think a strobe would not work longer then 1 or 2 seconds? Our experience is completely different.


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## Javora

I love your build up in force with use of a flashlight. Your experience clearly shows. Others on this forum might not have the same training, it's those people that I was thinking of as I tapped.

I live and work in an area where total darkness is common at night where even peoples yards can be filled with potholes. So trying to come up behind a subject without being noticed and not tripping and falling flat on your face to make a apprehension quickly to deescalate a situation can be tricky when starting with a high strobe light. Granted the lights flashing from the car is going to mitigate that, but I wouldn't want my light starting in strobe mode. A light that has a press and hold button for strobe from off or any mode would be ideal for me. But for a tactical use only I can see where you are coming from.

As for your question, in my experience a young male who doesn't allow themselves to be arrested will usually revert to basic animal instincts of "fight or flight" within that 2 second time span. He won't wait much longer than that. With a large show of force he will run in which case the light will be shining at his back. With one or two officers he might start shooting.


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## Grizzlyb

Ahh, I understand what You mean.
A case of different country's and different laws/situations 

Holland has become almost 1 big city, without many total dark places. 
99% of the incidents occur in much populated areas. 
We can't stop them from running away, with or without lights. 
In most incidents it is between 5 and 10 seconds before we close the distance and go physical.
That short period brings a bing advantage. He's blind and disoriented and we can see :thumbsup:


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## LanWolf

Well took me a couple of hours reading the whole thread, and i like how te light is developed. Nice to to see there is a light like the one developed which can be bought by others than the police. 
I see a differnce with the eden "consumer version" light compared with what you describe, the eden light uses a xp-e r5, you are talking about xp-g and xp-g2, so the police version is different than what can be bought by everyone. Is that done intentionally ?


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## Grizzlyb

LanWolf said:


> Well took me a couple of hours reading the whole thread, and i like how te light is developed. Nice to to see there is a light like the one developed which can be bought by others than the police.
> I see a differnce with the eden "consumer version" light compared with what you describe, the eden light uses a xp-e r5, you are talking about xp-g and xp-g2, so the police version is different than what can be bought by everyone. Is that done intentionally ?



Nope,
It is more a question of evolving into a better light according to the technical possibilities over the years.
Keep in mind that this project original was started in 2005 and this Tactical Strobe Light was available to us from 2012. Since then it had some minor improvements, and like many things is a work in progress.
It was not our purpose to keep the knowledge to our selves, so the manufactor could sell it to a wider public.


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## InspectHerGadget

I spent hours reading this entire thread. It was really interesting including the angle of guns in the USA (where I lived my childhood from 5 to 14) and attitudes in other parts of the world.

Grizzlyb, you're a champion putting put with the issues you get with some members on the forum yet you continue to contribute.

I learnt a lot from this but I'm no LEO but just an ordinary old Capricorn living in Australia...


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## Grizzlyb

You don't have to be a LEO (cop) to be tough or have common sense.
I seem to remember (my ancestors lived there) that Capricorns are a tough lot, specially in Australia.
So, from You, that accounts to me as a compliment
Thanks mate


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## Baby0214

*STROBE MODE*


Best result on a tactical level is a beam as tight as possible. With this tight beam, all the light is concentrated in the eyes of the opponent. This way you’re partner can approach the opponent undetected up to touching, and do the things you were trained for. (working in low/no light conditions) 

 Flood lights are for searching and should not be used in a dedicated TL. You’ll shine on your partner and make him an easy target. Working with lights that had a flood beam, especially in teams, we found that a big part of the flood was increasing the light level on the hole working place, up to the level that the blinding "tunnel" effect was greatly diminished.

I did agree that you said sbout the "tight"beam and" flood light",as we know ,at the same light beam ,the strobe beam will be concentrated on the opponet but the flood light maybe not arrive the wanted effects ,so the strobe beam is making an important functions ...


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## RI Chevy

Welcome to the Forum! :welcome:


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## InspectHerGadget

Grizzlyb said:


> You don't have to be a LEO (cop) to be tough or have common sense.
> I seem to remember (my ancestors lived there) that Capricorns are a tough lot, specially in Australia.
> So, from You, that accounts to me as a compliment
> Thanks mate



Australia has changed a lot since then!

Ancestors? Aborigines have lived in this country for 40,000 years so probably all humans are linked when you go back far enough...

My ancestors are all from England and Scotland who in turn have populated the four corners of the globe. I was born in New Zealand but spend from 5 until 14 in the USA in Connecticut and my cousins still live in South Africa (lost touch), England and the USA (Massachusetts and Colorado).

Continue the good postings...

I ordered the Eagletac MX25L3 with the MT-G2 emitter. I know the limitations of the strobe but it can be useful.

Last night I was just about to go out for a walk, about 11:30pm. I heard a group of young teenagers who I think just got off the bus and had passed through the walkway in our cul-de-sac walking down the street. The next second I heard one of them kick our colour bond steel fence so I still had my Lenser P14R.2 in my hand so I raced out and spotted them with it and turned it up to boost, 850 Lumens and lit them up with the spot beam. One of them ambled, two ran (one a girl and the other probably the bloke who kicked our fence), the guy was running like a rabbit. My wife then stuck her head out and threatened to call the police but it was all over and a waste of time calling the police.

The incident made me think though. I could have been down the street facing them 30 seconds later. I guess if they had seen me probably nothing would have happened in the first place but...maybe


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## Grizzlyb

We strongly advice *not* to use strobe lights in situations you describe. 
Use a normal light, to make things in the dark visible.

Groups of youngsters love the dark (like we did on that age) to do the stupid stuff youngsters do . . . .
Let the daylight in, (like you did) and they will go and play in other places.

Never use strong strobe lights in relative peaceful situations, that could have the opposite effect.
We only use strobes when the opponent is already very aggressive, non cooperative and only then when we want to mask/hide our tactics for a short period. (before arrest)

It is a tactical instrument, not a weapon.


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## InspectHerGadget

Grizzlyb said:


> We strongly advice *not* to use strobe lights in situations you describe.
> Use a normal light, to make things in the dark visible.
> 
> Groups of youngsters love the dark (like we did on that age) to do the stupid stuff youngsters do . . . .
> Let the daylight in, (like you did) and they will go and play in other places.
> 
> Never use strong strobe lights in relative peaceful situations, that could have the opposite effect.
> We only use strobes when the opponent is already very aggressive, non cooperative and only then when we want to mask/hide our tactics for a short period. (before arrest)
> 
> It is a tactical instrument, not a weapon.



Well, hopefully you are right and they play elsewhere. I ended up reporting it to the police this afternoon and they appreciate people reporting things as it can get fed into information about other incidents and affect potentially how and when they patrol.

Hopefully it is just a one off and they will think again before damaging property for a bit of fun.

The bright light had the desired effect anyway.


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## Deadly_Pooh_Bear

Very interesting article. I use a light with double tail cap switch that has a dedicated strobe button, but I never thought about throw vs flood. My light is more flood than throw and it makes sense that that would hinder you in a tactical situation. I also work with a lot of mental patients and I believe a disorienting strobe is the way to go if they get combative.


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## Xacto

Grizzlyb said:


> We strongly advice *not* to use strobe lights in situations you describe.
> Use a normal light, to make things in the dark visible.
> 
> Groups of youngsters love the dark (like we did on that age) to do the stupid stuff youngsters do . . . .
> Let the daylight in, (like you did) and they will go and play in other places.



Glad you say that, thereby confirming my Modus operandi.

I had a similar experience a few days ago when a couple decided to have a quarrel outside our house. I just came home and saw a guy leaning on our fence. Observing the situation while standing on the front porch, I realised that he obviously wanted his girlfriend to go with him (to wherever), his voice changing from pleading to aggressiveness and back. After realizing (orientating) that the situation wasn't totally harmless, I decided to offer the woman a chance to escape. I went into the middle of the street (giving me more room to move, getting attention from our neighbours and possibly cars driving through the neighbourhood.

I switched on my Elzetta with a Malkoff flood optic and commanded the guy to let go of the woman. After an exchange of some pleasantries she turned around (twice) and said that everything was okay, which made me retreat. During the encounter, I had shortly considered the strobe setting in my Elzetta tailcap, but did not see any advantage at that stage. My flashlight and my command were backed up by my drawn Kimber Guardian Angel Pepper Spray (I assume the guy did not realise the latter).
But... and now I am steering back on topic.... how do you handle such a situation? Do you light them up with the constant on mode and then switch to strobe in case you have to make the arrest or do some of your officers carry a second flashlight for the pure illumination of the scene.
Is there possibly a slight deviation from the regulations and how things are being handled by the officers on duty?
Thanks
Cheers
Thorsten


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## newdenny

Hi Grizzlyb,

Any good news for the second tactical light?


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## braddy

> I switched on my Elzetta with a Malkoff flood optic and commanded the guy to let go of the woman.


 That is about a perfect way to get your self into a fight, from anyone that you do that to, not just some guy yelling at his girlfriend.

Among rough men, playing control games like that with a flashlight will send them coming after you.


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## InspectHerGadget

braddy said:


> That is about a perfect way to get your self into a fight, from anyone that you do that to, not just some guy yelling at his girlfriend.
> 
> Among rough men, playing control games like that with a flashlight will send them coming after you.



It is a catch-22. If the person is just a little bit aggravated and not generally a violent sort, then the person can normally be calmed down or deterred easily enough, even just shining a light on them (not a strobe). The risk is as braddy says that if it is a more malignant individual then your life may be in grave danger if you approach them, pepper spray, death ray equipped or not, especially if you aggravate them using s strobe.

I would stay at a distance and just try to deter these sorts and make sure you can retreat somewhere easily enough before you get attacked, unless you're very sure of yourself. Even then, these days, if you hurt someone and you've used undue force, you can find yourself in a lot of trouble. Things like pepper sprays in Australia are regarded as offensive weapons so if you use one in a fight, it has better be crystal clear you didn't aggravate the situation and you were completely innocent.

I see a strobe and a pepper spray as only for use as a last resort if you find yourself attacked and there is no way out.

If someone's life is in direct danger then I would do something but you still have no need to put yourself in harm's way. A light can deter from 100m away, if a slight deterrence is needed.

My 2 cents...


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## braddy

My advice would have been to walk up to the man and conduct your business man to man, or yell at him from a distance telling him to knock it off or to not cross a line, or call the cops, or stay out of it, the actions taken would make even a regular guy chase a guy down and beat him up, I think the behavior was the exact type of thing that sets off males, it was annoying, timid yet invasive, and girly, and the type of thing that causes a male reaction to it.

There are reasons why some guys just have a knack for annoying other men and drawing their ire.


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## 18sixfifty

Good stuff, thanks for the report. I have to admit I always thought of the "tactical" part of the flashlight scene as rather a joke. It's like a "little" hand to hand training. Just enough to make you think you're tough so you get your rear end handed to you in a fight. (like many of the kids after basic training did) Also I was "infantry" we were kicking in doors and almost always at night but with night vision goggles on so a light was something you used after securing the building. I hadn't really thought of it from a LEO or MP perspective. 

I live out in the boonies so around here the biggest advantage to a light is one with a few thousand lumens to scare someone or something away. By far more likely a bear than a person! I don't think I want to hit a bear with a strobe and tick him or her off. I would rather just let the bear know I'm there so they leave.


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## turkeylord

I had a thought the other day. Now that we're getting to the point where we have planty of lumens to get the job done with a weapon light, has anyone considered a elliptical "hot spot" going from straight out to say, 30 degrees above vertical? This way you could keep your weapon aimed downward and still have light out in front of you... Good/bad idea for home defense or police use?


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## BeauB

Cool read. Thanks man!


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## Bullzeyebill

I just removed three OT posts.

Bill


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## Grizzlyb

Thanks Bill, for helping keep things on topic.

@Turkeylord,

Good thinking. We'll try working with your idea and see what pro and con comes out.


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## LanWolf

Is the light you use a light with a p60 drop-in? Like solarforce and surefire lights?


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## Grizzlyb

LanWolf said:


> Is the light you use a light with a p60 drop-in? Like solarforce and surefire lights?



Sorry but No LanWolf, 

There are so many requirements necessary to make a normal light into these dedicated Tactical Strobe Lights that, for the moment, p60 drop-ins cant be used.
It would open up some possibilities thou.

At the moment the latest innovations and technology is integrated in the last version of these Tactical Strobe Lights.
We'll keep the readers of this forum informed.


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## LanWolf

Mainly, i thought so, because of the versatility possible with the p60 dropins, and the form factor of the light looks a lot like it was a host for p60.

You are aware of the posibillity to totally build them by yourselves / programm them by yourselves? 
There is a pretty standard driver , nanjg 105c (and variants on that) with an attiny 13a chip which can be programmed with your own firmware. 


The biggest concern i would have is, that leos would swap out the dropin themselves, altough a drop of loctite would be able to overcome that part. (And i think those keen enough to know about dropins etc shoul also be keen enough not to screw with their issued lights..)

It is also possible to go little smaller too, with a host like the convoy s2. Not a dropin, but fixed host. 
Add the led you wish and a programmable driver, possibilitys are also almost endless.


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## Grizzlyb

We agree on your concerns LanWolf, 
And are aware of the possibillities of the p60 concept.
It has pros and cons. It will always be a work in progres.

Over time our trainings change, bad guys change, situations change and lights will keep changing due to new innovations.
At the moment we are just doing our best to get the best equipment that we can come up with to our LEO's, and that is difficult enough with all the hurdles that need to be taken.
(low budgets, slow working officials, countless commities, numnut managers, and millions of people all having different opinions) 
Those things make it almost impossible to start new ideas. 
But we made the start, and now slowly can make some improvements and work with new input. Thanks for yours


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## magicstone12

Thanks for sharing, very useful


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## rugercat45

Thank you very much for the great "thread"? on the Tactical use of the Strobe. It made me evaluate my light in reference to the technical specs you mentioned. I have on order an Olight M18 Maverick, and it's 23mm wide, 10 hz strobe, 127mm long, 500 lm bright, and uses 2 CR123 batts. or (I think) 1 18650. So, it's "in there" for the most part. I am very impressed with the research done in this regard, I will probably refer to this "article" for a long time. A big thanks to you!


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## tobrien

rugercat45 said:


> Thank you very much for the great "thread"? on the Tactical use of the Strobe. It made me evaluate my light in reference to the technical specs you mentioned. I have on order an Olight M18 Maverick, and it's 23mm wide, 10 hz strobe, 127mm long, 500 lm bright, and uses 2 CR123 batts. or (I think) 1 18650. So, it's "in there" for the most part. I am very impressed with the research done in this regard, I will probably refer to this "article" for a long time. A big thanks to you!



welcome to CPF! youre correct about the Olight allowing an 18650 as well


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## groutboy_1

I kind of like the "Dual frequency strobe" on the 400lm Fenix TK 15 s2...I was testing it on my Dad at about 17ft in a well lit living room...He said he really liked the Dazzler function, and noticed purple spots in his vision for a few minutes...I believe that would definitely upset dark adapted eyes at night...


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## ccrdiver

Great stuff, thanks


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## Mikey66

My first tactical was a Streamlight, purchased largely because of the stroke feature. Your post was extremely informative and will definitely influence future purchases. Back when I was on the job, the tactical light of choice was a Maglight with the mini-Mag as a backup. My only concern with strobes are those that have the potential for epileptic seizures when exposed to one. They are out there, I am thinking of one meth head in particular… Still, I am more concerned for my safety and the safety of brother officers. Thanks again.


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## Grizzlyb

Mikey66 said:


> My first tactical was a Streamlight, purchased largely because of the stroke feature. Your post was extremely informative and will definitely influence future purchases. Back when I was on the job, the tactical light of choice was a Maglight with the mini-Mag as a backup. My only concern with strobes are those that have the potential for epileptic seizures when exposed to one. They are out there, I am thinking of one meth head in particular… Still, I am more concerned for my safety and the safety of brother officers. Thanks again.



Thanks for the info Mikey,

We did do some research on the possibilities of epileptic seizures.
The very short duration that we use our strobe in tactical combat, the small light (not filling the the complete site of the viewer) and the fast strobe more or less cancels out the chance epileptic seizures. We use it for several years now and jet have to see 1 incident.
And then, all the alternatives of using force have a bigger chance of doing harm to people.


----------



## tobrien

Mikey66 said:


> My first tactical was a Streamlight, purchased largely because of the stroke feature. Your post was extremely informative and will definitely influence future purchases. Back when I was on the job, the tactical light of choice was a Maglight with the mini-Mag as a backup. My only concern with strobes are those that have the potential for epileptic seizures when exposed to one. They are out there, I am thinking of one meth head in particular… Still, I am more concerned for my safety and the safety of brother officers. Thanks again.



true about people who are epileptic. You got me wondering what the number might be, at least in the US. after some searching, apparently "for about 3 percent of people with epilepsy, exposure to flashing lights at certain intensities or to certain visual patterns can trigger seizures."

interestingly enough, it's _*typically*_ 5 Hz to 30 Hz regarding flash frequency:


> The frequency or speed of flashing light that is most likely to cause seizures varies from person to person. Generally, flashing lights most likely to trigger seizures are between the frequency of 5 to 30 flashes per second (Hertz).



source: http://www.epilepsy.com/learn/triggers-seizures/photosensitivity-and-seizures

anyone know what typical flashlight drivers strobe at?


----------



## Grizzlyb

tobrien said:


> true about people who are epileptic. You got me wondering what the number might be, at least in the US. after some searching, apparently "for about 3 percent of people with epilepsy, exposure to flashing lights at certain intensities or to certain visual patterns can trigger seizures."
> interestingly enough, it's _*typically*_ 5 Hz to 30 Hz regarding flash frequency:



Hi Tobrien.

As far as we gathered the info, about 1 in 3000 people has epilepsy in some degree.
3 % of that group (total of 1 in 100.000 people) has a form that will be triggered by light at a certain frequency somewhere between 1 and 30 Hz (more in the lower part and less frequent above 15Hz. 
That is for every person a different frequency.
Normally it only becomes a problem when the total vision is filled with that light, for instance:
A child that is way to close by the TV. Or a party room that is filled with stroboscopic lights.
And to make it even more difficult to understand, it seems to be that it also has to do with color. Some only have problems with Red or Green.

So the chance that we encounter a suspect that is in the categorie of the strobe frequency that we use is extremely low.


----------



## texas cop

Grizzlyb said:


> Hi Tobrien.
> 
> As far as we gathered the info, about 1 in 3000 people has epilepsy in some degree.
> 3 % of that group (total of 1 in 100.000 people) has a form that will be triggered by light at a certain frequency somewhere between 1 and 30 Hz (more in the lower part and less frequent above 15Hz.
> That is for every person a different frequency.
> Normally it only becomes a problem when the total vision is filled with that light, for instance:
> A child that is way to close by the TV. Or a party room that is filled with stroboscopic lights.
> And to make it even more difficult to understand, it seems to be that it also has to do with color. Some only have problems with Red or Green.
> 
> So the chance that we encounter a suspect that is in the categorie of the strobe frequency that we use is extremely low.



I've dealt with more than a few people who were in a seizure or just recovering from one. I've never had any nearly as violent as those portrayed on TV. Most lasted less than a minute, a little panting and drool. The longest was an on/off 30 minute series of little seizures, patient had also been refusing his medication for sometime. The slim chance of one being triggered from a defensive flashlight is probable more than worth the trade off. Not trying to down play a seizure but they look far worse than they are.


----------



## tobrien

Grizzlyb said:


> Hi Tobrien.
> 
> As far as we gathered the info, about 1 in 3000 people has epilepsy in some degree.
> 3 % of that group (total of 1 in 100.000 people) has a form that will be triggered by light at a certain frequency somewhere between 1 and 30 Hz (more in the lower part and less frequent above 15Hz.
> That is for every person a different frequency.
> Normally it only becomes a problem when the total vision is filled with that light, for instance:
> A child that is way to close by the TV. Or a party room that is filled with stroboscopic lights.
> And to make it even more difficult to understand, it seems to be that it also has to do with color. Some only have problems with Red or Green.
> 
> So the chance that we encounter a suspect that is in the categorie of the strobe frequency that we use is extremely low.


i know  I'm saying it's extremely _unlikely_ you'd really run into someone with light sensitivity for epilepsy. statistically speaking it is possible, but the chances are slim 


texas cop said:


> I've dealt with more than a few people who were in a seizure or just recovering from one. I've never had any nearly as violent as those portrayed on TV. Most lasted less than a minute, a little panting and drool. The longest was an on/off 30 minute series of little seizures, patient had also been refusing his medication for sometime. The slim chance of one being triggered from a defensive flashlight is probable more than worth the trade off. Not trying to down play a seizure but they look far worse than they are.



I agree that it's worth the trade-off for LEO safety (if that's what you're saying)


----------



## anotherred

Interesting read.


----------



## Mashadaar

WHEW!! That was a lot of reading, most of it very informative and interesting. In my search for the best possible tactical light, I have come here and will seriously consider the TDL20 (hopefully the "perfected version?). I had a thought while reading this in improving the function as a tactical tool a little through design. The UI one-button, insta-strobe feature is stressed multiple times as being essential for a number of good reasons, including minimizing user error in high stress situations. What if the holster and light were specially designed to activate strobe upon exiting the holster without any input from the LEO? All you have to do is draw it and it's functioning. This would minimize the deployment of the strobe to the smallest amount of time necessary while also removing additional unnecessary risk of user error.

I'm still new to all this so I may be speaking out of ignorance but I think that could optimize it even further. This would also free up functionality for other options (I believe you mentioned having a selector ring of some sort?)

Personally, I want something that is actually meant to be utilized as a weapon in addition to having the strobe potential of your tactical light (And since I have failed to say this thusfar, I am awed by your efforts and greatly appreciate your willingness to share your knowledge.) I'm not a LEO, civilian strongly interested in self-defense (I like Bujinkan), wilderness survival, and tactical ways of thinking. I like to be prepared for the worst case scenario (What else would you call having to use a flashlight as a weapon?) And in a worst case scenario I'll use any edge I can to make sure I get home to my family. That being said, the idea of a tactical light/combat light combination is very appealing to me as I have the tactical functionality of light with the increased combat ability a small weapon affords _while also not actually/seemingly _carrying something that is a weapon. This is another aspect of tactical thinking. Anything can be used as a weapon with the right mindset.

Honestly though, I think what you have already is very good if not close to perfect. Any combat modifications I can think of would be relatively minor. I would definitely like to hear your thoughts on that holster modification, Grizzlyb.

And any other lights you could recommend for my purposes would be appreciated. So far I am considering the viking pro by armytech for it's amazing programability (I CAN ADJUST THE STROBE TO MY LIKING?!) in addition to the TDL20.


----------



## tobrien

Mashadaar said:


> WHEW!! That was a lot of reading, most of it very informative and interesting. In my search for the best possible tactical light, I have come here and will seriously consider the TDL20 (hopefully the "perfected version?). I had a thought while reading this in improving the function as a tactical tool a little through design. The UI one-button, insta-strobe feature is stressed multiple times as being essential for a number of good reasons, including minimizing user error in high stress situations. What if the holster and light were specially designed to activate strobe upon exiting the holster without any input from the LEO? All you have to do is draw it and it's functioning. This would minimize the deployment of the strobe to the smallest amount of time necessary while also removing additional unnecessary risk of user error.
> 
> I'm still new to all this so I may be speaking out of ignorance but I think that could optimize it even further. This would also free up functionality for other options (I believe you mentioned having a selector ring of some sort?)
> 
> Personally, I want something that is actually meant to be utilized as a weapon in addition to having the strobe potential of your tactical light (And since I have failed to say this thusfar, I am awed by your efforts and greatly appreciate your willingness to share your knowledge.) I'm not a LEO, civilian strongly interested in self-defense (I like Bujinkan), wilderness survival, and tactical ways of thinking. I like to be prepared for the worst case scenario (What else would you call having to use a flashlight as a weapon?) And in a worst case scenario I'll use any edge I can to make sure I get home to my family. That being said, the idea of a tactical light/combat light combination is very appealing to me as I have the tactical functionality of light with the increased combat ability a small weapon affords _while also not actually/seemingly _carrying something that is a weapon. This is another aspect of tactical thinking. Anything can be used as a weapon with the right mindset.
> 
> Honestly though, I think what you have already is very good if not close to perfect. Any combat modifications I can think of would be relatively minor. I would definitely like to hear your thoughts on that holster modification, Grizzlyb.
> 
> And any other lights you could recommend for my purposes would be appreciated. So far I am considering the viking pro by armytech for it's amazing programability (I CAN ADJUST THE STROBE TO MY LIKING?!) in addition to the TDL20.



welcome to CPF, fellow Georgian 

I think Armytek is about as good as you can get for adjustment of strobe frequency, _but_ you could get a light engine programmed to have, say, alternating frequency strobes and anything else you want, so it's not simply "you have to go with whatever the brands put out"


----------



## Mashadaar

Thanks!

So I went ahead and ordered a TDL20. Can't wait to get it. Gonna get the holster too. Would definitely like to get a modification to activate it upon drawing it from the holster and maybe some self-defense modifications. I got some buddies I'm going to to play with to get a feel for it. Would like to eventually get 2 for team play. I'd very much like to hear more about training with this, if anyone with that sort of experience still reads this thread.


----------



## wichaka

Been in the LE world for 26+ years, and find the strobe to be debilitating on both ends...user and suspect alike.

Doesn't take but a few flashes, and I find myself a bit disoriented.


----------



## tobrien

Mashadaar said:


> Thanks!
> 
> So I went ahead and ordered a TDL20. Can't wait to get it. Gonna get the holster too. Would definitely like to get a modification to activate it upon drawing it from the holster and maybe some self-defense modifications. I got some buddies I'm going to to play with to get a feel for it. Would like to eventually get 2 for team play. I'd very much like to hear more about training with this, if anyone with that sort of experience still reads this thread.


no problem man! how close are you to Smyrna? You really ought to visit GoingGear because they have a ton of lights you can try out and see what works best. GG and its staff are members here and are great people. they have a CPF discount too (in store and online)!


wichaka said:


> Been in the LE world for 26+ years, and find the strobe to be debilitating on both ends...user and suspect alike.
> 
> Doesn't take but a few flashes, and I find myself a bit disoriented.



you've got me thinking now... what if the strobe mode was slightly dimmer? maybe on the order of 50% output or less. Perhaps that'd give the suspect all the burst of light with as little bounceback as possible


----------



## wichaka

I routinely use 320 and 500 lum. lights and have never found them to be too much light, even in very small rooms. But in pointing them in the eyes of people, they seem to do well at blinding them fine, without the strobe thing going on. Which means the light is more usable, especially the ambient light it puts off, which is more than enough to see and keep the situation at hand.

But everyone has their favorites.


----------



## rickypanecatyl

*Strobe vs Moonlight mode*

Here's some random strobe vs moonlight mode I shared with a popular flashlight manufacturer recently. I know you are probably wondering what the heck those two modes have to do with each other and the context was:

1. How incredibly important "moonlight" mode is in extreme tactical situations and
2. This particular manufacturer has a problem where their lights will randomly jump from moonlight to strobe - often at the most inconvenient times.



> I love your lights guys! I've got 4 now but have purchased over 20 in the past 2 years to give as gifts.
> 
> One thing I keep hoping for you guys to add is a "moonlight" mode to many of your lights! A personal point of reference I’ve found:
> 
> .05 lumens = enough (barely) to read a book in bed at night.
> .2 lumens = perfect for reading a book in bed at night with my wife already asleep!
> 4 lumens = my wife will wake up from a dead sleep in the middle of the night and groan at me to turn it off.
> 11 lumens (lowest mode on your Gxxx) = blind myself trying to read.
> 
> 
> For what it’s worth, I’m a civilian working for an NGO doing relief work in disaster/war areas and spend much of my time in Myanmar/Burma, Iraq, Syria, Indonesia and Southern Philippines. I'm constantly crossing paths with SF & Recon guys who as you can imagine like checking out my lights.
> The 2 most important modes to me are turbo and moonlight. Moonlight is uber important to me as a non-combatant in extremely hostile areas aiding civilians. Often I need the minimum amount of light possible so as to not draw attention to myself/ourselves in the jungle in a war zone at night.
> It's probably MORE important to me than the military guys I’m with as I don't have a weapon to defend myself. At the same time, virtually all the military guys in those recon type situations see the value of the moonlight mode (if they didn’t before) and want it!
> For what it’s worth I'd estimate 4 out of 5 of those guys in the most "tactical" of situations would gladly swap moonlight for strobe.


----------



## bluemax_1

*Re: Strobe vs Moonlight mode*



rickypanecatyl said:


> Here's some random strobe vs moonlight mode I shared with a popular flashlight manufacturer recently. I know you are probably wondering what the heck those two modes have to do with each other and the context was:
> 
> 1. How incredibly important "moonlight" mode is in extreme tactical situations and
> 2. This particular manufacturer has a problem where their lights will randomly jump from moonlight to strobe - often at the most inconvenient times.


Interesting anecdotal info, just bear in mind that once again, it's different strokes for different folks. In a war zone, the usage of strobing lights is less critical, especially in the jungle. Fully automatic fire will be stroboscopic enough.

The only potential use I'd see in a war zone is perhaps for building clearing.

Just as US vs EU LEO usage differs, wrt having a light with a strobe 'option' vs ALWAYS coming on in strobe mode, so differs the necessity for strobe vs a moonlight mode in a war zone. You'll find the desire for a moonlight mode in a flashlight for US LEO to be in the extremely small percentile. The most desirable is Turbo momentary and constant, coupled with a medium/low "don't blind myself while writing a ticket" mode. Strobe is optional, but hardly anyone wants a super dim mode that could be accidentally accessed when full brightness is required far more often. The percentage of usage for moonlight mode during a stakeout etc. is extremely low on the priority list.

In a war zone on the other hand, I'd prioritize a stealth/moonlight mode and a Turbo and pass on the strobe.



Max


----------



## Mashadaar

tobrien said:


> no problem man! how close are you to Smyrna? You really ought to visit GoingGear because they have a ton of lights you can try out and see what works best. GG and its staff are members here and are great people. they have a CPF discount too (in store and online)!
> 
> 
> you've got me thinking now... what if the strobe mode was slightly dimmer? maybe on the order of 50% output or less. Perhaps that'd give the suspect all the burst of light with as little bounceback as possible



I used to live in Marietta which is like 5 mins from Smyrna but live about 2 1/2 hours N/E now.

So I got one of these lights about a week ago and have to say I'm even more impressed than I expected to be. You can feel and see the quality of this light clearly. It's got an surprising amount of throw for such a small light and the flood is more than enough. I was surprised by the strobe. It's a lot faster than I thought it would be. You almost can't even tell it's strobing if it's pointed away from you, the beam is almost solid, more like PWM (I think that is the term?) That being said, when someone gets hit with it in a low light situation, it's quite debilitating and moderately disorientating. I would like to be able to adjust the strobe to a slower speed. When the batteries are almost dead in this thing it shuts off immediately (runs at full juice straight up to empty). after that, you can hold the momentary on for a much weaker and slower strobe which I found extremely disorientating even though it was not pointed at me. Not really usable but it was interesting to see the differences in strobe.

The modes are easy to switch between and honestly, you can use strobe instead of constant beam for the most part. It's such a fast strobe it doesn't really affect the user. Though I started to develop a slight headache after extended use. Probably due to eyestrain from re-focusing so quickly.

I'm just as impressed with the holster as I am with the light. Clips onto your belt, held VERY securely, yet quick to remove and use. I would say it is the flashlight equivalent to a Serpa holster for pistols, in quality. It's nice that it rotates so I can have a waist-mounted light if I need to be hands free (which I often do). I mentioned before that a modification to the holster might make the light even better in a tactical situation. After using this light I can say that any such modification would only make about a 1/10 of a second difference. This thing is so quick and easy to use from the holster it probably doesn't need anything like that. I had no trouble activating the light as soon as my hand touched it to draw it from the holster. It just fits in the hand so well!!!

Will eventually post some shots when I get my camera up and running. I do not regret this purchase and highly recommend this light. It's a solid investment.


----------



## jimmy5

i've also noticed that the strobe is quite annoying on my lamp, but dunno how many hz it is


----------



## Meatco1

*So, it appears there is no real consensus on the use of strobes.

As a young deputy on the L.A.S.O. in the late 60s, I thought the original Kel-light was darn impressive** (not to mention, a good thumper). Strobe? What the heck was strobe in those days? We got along just fine with that old baton flashlight!!** *

*Respects,*

*Richard*
 
 

**


----------



## bright star

wichaka said:


> Been in the LE world for 26+ years, and find the strobe to be debilitating on both ends...user and suspect alike.
> 
> Doesn't take but a few flashes, and I find myself a bit disoriented.



+1


----------



## Rayzorbeam

Hello Grizzlyb,
Very interesting indeed, thank you. Can you perhaps elaborate on the power output specs of the TL you have used, and the type of illuminator (source) which you found was most common for those applications?


----------



## HikingMoose

I've been following this thread for a bit now. Great thread. Great to see all of the different thoughts users might have. I haven't read every post, but I've read 8-10 pages of it. Where is the link to the flashlight you are evloving? I've seen a few posts about people buying it, but I either missed it, or it's in the pages that I didn't read yet. Thanks in advance!

Some things I'm thinking about. To the members saying self defense flashlights are a joke, and useless - yes, it's kind of like bringing a flashlight to a gun fight. BUT, I'd rather have a bright flashlight to shine in a gun wielding criminals eyes, then just standing there in plain view. I'm not trained in hand to hand combat, admittedly, but I am 6'4" tall and weigh about 245lbs. Not many people will see me as an easy victim. But if one does, I'd rather have (as dumb as it might sound) a way to temporarily blind/stun them, and if they continue their advance [and I'm unable to retreat], something to strengthen my fist the same way brass knuckles would. Also a strike bezel could do some damage and open up their scalp, causing blood in their eyes. This will often end boxing and MMA matches, why not a street attack?

So, I do feel a light can at least help if you do not want to/not allowed to carry a firearm. I'm still up in the air about strobe. I think I prefer a bright, solid light. For me, I need/want two things. The ability to turn on the light from off, right to turbo/high! And the ability to go from low/moon mode, directly to turbo in the case of using it for low light navigation - then stumbling onto a perp. That is what I'm currently looking for. 

Again, great read. Great to hear everyone's opinions.


----------



## SeamusORiley

Are there some models that are specifically recommended for outdoor self defense? I am thinking high lumens but also substantial weight while not being too large to carry on daily walks. thanks. (PS: One carried by small woman)


----------



## Graystone

Lots of good info here, but probably not too useful to a senior citizen. Thanks, anyway.


----------



## bennett4624

Reminds me of Robins Revenge.. The strobe is great against the assailant.. All flashlights should have it and an SOS pattern too.. with different color lenses


----------



## bright star

Graystone said:


> Lots of good info here, but probably not too useful to a senior citizen. Thanks, anyway.



Since this is your first post :welcome:


----------



## Bullzeyebill

Graystone said:


> Lots of good info here, but probably not too useful to a senior citizen. Thanks, anyway.



Excuse me. LOL. I'm there, and like and use my lights daily. Useful tools they are. Welcome to CPF; do some reading here, and you be amazed at what is going on in the world of light(s).

Bill


----------



## CaptainRogersUK

Indeed a very nice thread though cant find the Eden tdl20available any where no longer-possibly due to an over subscribed thread.. lol...

Any update on the next version of the EDl20 or was it just a flash in the pan light ?


----------



## newdenny

Hi Grizzlyb,

Happy New Year!

Any tentative date for the release of the new tactical flash light this year?


----------



## 5S8Zh5

Graystone said:


> Lots of good info here, but probably not too useful to a senior citizen. Thanks, anyway.



There's always safeseeker. ..






_


----------



## SeamusORiley

Other than self-struggle, is there a consensus on minimum lumens for:

a. human 
b. wildlife, including dogs
?


----------



## Low_Speed

I was wonder about the amount of lumens myself.


----------



## Endorphin

Low_Speed said:


> I was wonder about the amount of lumens myself.



Just read through this whole thing, and that stuck out to me as well... bright strobe vs super bright constant (say, 400 vs 2000 lumen) was brought up, but not responded to? Really curious if that was ever compared.


----------



## bdogps

5S8Zh5 said:


> There's always safeseeker. ..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _



I was cracking up watching this video. Do they sell the hollow out baseball bat as well? Why did not they show a real baseball bat with the torch? Ahh.. Its funny.


----------



## 5S8Zh5

bdogps said:


> I was cracking up watching this video. Do they sell the hollow out baseball bat as well? Why did not they show a real baseball bat with the torch? Ahh.. Its funny.



bump [in the night]

get the light out of ma face, get.... the... light.... out ma face


----------



## Grizzlyb

CaptainRogersUK said:


> Indeed a very nice thread though cant find the Eden tdl20available any where no longer-possibly due to an over subscribed thread.. lol...
> 
> Any update on the next version of the EDl20 or was it just a flash in the pan light ?



Took some time but finally there will be. Not at the moment, but in a vew months.
This is an update in the dedicated Tactical Defence Lights series. TDL25.


----------



## grinsefalle

Grizzlyb said:


> Took some time but finally there will be. Not at the moment, but in a vew months.
> This is an update in the dedicated Tactical Defence Lights series. TDL25.
> 
> sorry, better video will be uploaded shortly



Hi Koen,
glad to see you back in this thread with some good news. Just a few days ago, I noticed, that the TDL20 is not available any more. An upgraded successor is a good reason for this.
My own TDL20 is still working fine, but of course I am curious about the new light.
I will keep an eye on this thread!

stay safe
Michael


----------



## snowman3

with regard to "why is strobe included", does anyone know if it was once required for an LEO or military bid?
I'm wondering if it was a required feature at one point and then became defacto.


----------



## Bullzeyebill

snowman3 said:


> with regard to "why is strobe included", does anyone know if it was once required for an LEO or military bid?
> I'm wondering if it was a required feature at one point and then became defacto.



Go ahead and start your own thread re that question. Here is is off topic.

Bill


----------



## scs

Grizzlyb, in your original post, you mentioned that a wide and bright spill beam is not desirable as it diminishes the disorienting effects of the strobe and can potentially compromise the positions and maneuvers of the other officers. Do officers then carry a different light for searching or room-clearing for which a wide, bright beam is desirable to maximize field of view?


----------



## Grizzlyb

scs said:


> Grizzlyb, in your original post, you mentioned that a wide and bright spill beam is not desirable as it diminishes the disorienting effects of the strobe and can potentially compromise the positions and maneuvers of the other officers. Do officers then carry a different light for searching or room-clearing for which a wide, bright beam is desirable to maximize field of view?



No extra lights.
Normally the LEO's in Holland had the old heavy Maglites in the car. To heavy to carry around all the time. 
Turned out that when ever you needed a light, you had to go back to the car and get it. 
And then, you had that hugh old piece of metal that never had enough light to begin with. 
So, most bought there own small lights that where easy to carry all day. 

When you have to search in very dark places with no light at all, (livingroom/kitchen/bedroom etc) You will notice that 80 or 150 lm hotspot has more then enough spill to light the intire room. (In complete darkness Your eyes will get used to lower light conditions fast enough to adept, I normally aim the spot at the seling and have enough light from the rebounce) When You want more, use 250 or 500lm and rebounce that on the seling  

Except for larger halls, like storage places etc. Then you can use more lumens. 500 lumens should be more then enough to cover those areas. For the real big places, bring out the big guns. 2500 lumens or more. But You don't want to carry them around all day.

A better/bigger thrower with a wider beam is very good to use for an outdoor search. Indoors it is far to much light.

So when the choice is, small light, easy to carry around all day, best to use as a tactical light and also by far enough to do search work, the choice for us is easy. 
We take the advantage of the better tactical light.


----------



## bdogps

Hey mate, is there a reason why LEO do not use headlamps? My assumption is that they would be more advantageous since you have a free hand. I know surefire made the watch with the torch built in, but I reckon a headlamp would be better. Thanks mate.


----------



## Grizzlyb

bdogps said:


> Hey mate, is there a reason why LEO do not use headlamps? My assumption is that they would be more advantageous since you have a free hand. I know surefire made the watch with the torch built in, but I reckon a headlamp would be better. Thanks mate.



Hi Bdogps,

I never thought about it. 
At this moment I would think it is a bit irritating/ a nuisance to wear a headlamp all the time. 
So you would have to put the headband on when you need the light. (and take your police cap of, or put it on a policecap?)
Also, the light will always shine only in the direction where your head moves. 
And You can't pinpoint it in an other direction. 
You constantly would have to use a hand to switch to other modes, and fumbling around with one hand on your head does not seem to be very tactical.

No, at this moment I can think of to many negatives to make it work.

When going to a physical confrontation, we need both our hands in a tactical position, and we can easily drop the light. It has a small cable and we won't loose it.

And please don't be fooled by manufactors.
They make lights to make profit. 
I have seen far to many lights that proclaim to be tactical, but for our job they are not.
Those lights are at most tactical in an economical sens and by no means tactical for our specific LEO job.
That goes for funny things like a light in your watch. 
Possibly there already is, or will soon be (now I mention it), a google-glass tactical light


----------



## TEEJ

Grizzlyb said:


> Hi Bdogps,
> 
> I never thought about it.
> At this moment I would think it is a bit irritating/ a nuisance to wear a headlamp all the time.
> So you would have to put the headband on when you need the light. (and take your police cap of, or put it on a policecap?)
> Also, the light will always shine only in the direction where your head moves.
> And You can't pinpoint it in an other direction.
> You constantly would have to use a hand to switch to other modes, and fumbling around with one hand on your head does not seem to be very tactical.
> 
> No, at this moment I can think of to many negatives to make it work.
> 
> When going to a physical confrontation, we need both our hands in a tactical position, and we can easily drop the light. It has a small cable and we won't loose it.
> 
> And please don't be fooled by manufactors.
> They make lights to make profit.
> I have seen far to many lights that proclaim to be tactical, but for our job they are not.
> Those lights are at most tactical in an economical sens and by no means tactical for our specific LEO job.
> That goes for funny things like a light in your watch.
> Possibly there already is, or will soon be (now I mention it), a google-glass tactical light



Another potential issue could be the need to turn the light off when return fire may be incoming, to avoid attracting it/being an easy target. The pop and move would be difficult with a headlight for example.


----------



## Grizzlyb

TEEJ, you 100% nailed it.
And please keep in mind, that we primarily use the tactical advantage in a situation where a (non weapon) arrest is emminent and physical contact is likely. 
The blinding/dissorienting affects just help to make our moves unditected, the opponent distracted and the arrest can procede with as minimal force as possible.
During a physical arrest the LEO also is likely to loose his cap and also his headlight.
Neah, all in all, nice idea, but no headlights.


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## bdogps

Thank you for your input Grizzlyb and TEEJ.


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## Jelle

Grizzlyb

I'm new to this forum, but I've read your article with great attention.

I'm a Belgian LEO following a course "Specialist geweldbeheersing" with the specialisation of "Dwang met vuurwapen" (force with firearms). One of the main goals of the course is to give education to new recruits and to train more experienced LEO's. In order to finish the course, I have to create and give a lesson to my examinators. The topic I've been given is "*the use of light*".

Do you have must-read or must-see materials that you can share with me?
Or links to very interesting websites, investigations or publications?

All help and hints are welcome!


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## Lumencrazy

bdogps said:


> Hey mate, is there a reason why LEO do not use headlamps? My assumption is that they would be more advantageous since you have a free hand. I know surefire made the watch with the torch built in, but I reckon a headlamp would be better. Thanks mate.



Nothing like two people wearing headlamps needing to quickly turn around to talk. Or facing anyone in order to say something!!
Nasty experience to say the least!


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## bykfixer

Really enjoy the first post. But it'll take a few tries to read (and comprehend) it all. 

Thanks. 

Now to figure out which lights I have with the closest to reccomended frequency....


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## bluemax_1

Jelle said:


> Grizzlyb
> 
> I'm new to this forum, but I've read your article with great attention.
> 
> I'm a Belgian LEO following a course "Specialist geweldbeheersing" with the specialisation of "Dwang met vuurwapen" (force with firearms). One of the main goals of the course is to give education to new recruits and to train more experienced LEO's. In order to finish the course, I have to create and give a lesson to my examinators. The topic I've been given is "*the use of light*".
> 
> Do you have must-read or must-see materials that you can share with me?
> Or links to very interesting websites, investigations or publications?
> 
> All help and hints are welcome!



Try looking for Ken J Good's 'Deployment of Illumination Tools'.


Max


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## newdenny

Grizzlyb, 

Happy New Year! It is finally here. Which holster do you recommend?


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## Grizzlyb

Jelle said:


> Grizzlyb
> 
> I'm new to this forum, but I've read your article with great attention.
> 
> I'm a Belgian LEO following a course "Specialist geweldbeheersing" with the specialisation of "Dwang met vuurwapen" (force with firearms). One of the main goals of the course is to give education to new recruits and to train more experienced LEO's. In order to finish the course, I have to create and give a lesson to my examinators. The topic I've been given is "*the use of light*".
> 
> Do you have must-read or must-see materials that you can share with me?
> Or links to very interesting websites, investigations or publications?
> 
> All help and hints are welcome!



Sorry for the late responce Jelle,

But when you still need stuff, We have several WORD documents with fully explained lessons of each 1.5 hours and some teachers video's to be used for those lessons. 
(For official LEO trainers only) 
Lessons for unarmed combat on the street and in buildings for unarmed arrests. 
And also video lessons for use with firearms.
Privat email me for details.

Also, We have finnished the latest and, up till now, best version of this dedicated police tactical light.

In the early days we started with the old SF exec E2E that had a Xenon bulb with 60lm.
Not much lm, but the warm Yellow light was pretty annoying.
Remembering that, we wondered if a more warm light would annoy more then the more white/blue lights that most lights use.
So we tried this LED and where happily suprised that this new light is noticably more desorientating then the original one. 
In bright daylight on a distance of 2 meters you can't look in the strobelight anymore. You simply can't. You 100% Will close your eyes, put your hands up to protect your eyes or turn away. 
Eather way, our advantage. 

This light is comming close to the results we have with Pepperspray. Without all the known problems of spray.
But it will only last for a few seconds, so *it still is* only the short term tactical advancement of arresting a temporary blind person. 
The LED is changed to a XP-L HI with a color temp 4200 Kelvin. It has 2800 lux at 3 meters.


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## James Bond

Have just read the entire thread. Thanks for all the great info Grizzlyb.

If anyone has a Pelican 7000 or Pelican 7060 Gen. III, I can tell you that the strobe on them runs at 12Hz.


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## ceramicknife

I feel that having an instant strobe with no other selected light features is the way to go for any self defense applications. 

Far to easy to make mistakes under stress.


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## Theodore41

Is there a possibility to see these lights going to stores so as to have one?


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## ceramicknife

This is the best discussion I have been able to find that refers to the use of a strobe light in "tactical" situations.
However, I am looking at developing a personal strobe light that could be used by women to interrupt or stop sexual harassment (verbal, leering but not touching) and provide a few seconds of dazzel in face of the offender which could give an opportunity to escape/move away from the confrontation. (at normal indoor light levels such as in public transit) This would also be useful in night time encounters where a few seconds to escape could make a huge difference.

A wide beam of strobing light would be more useful in these kinds of confrontations where the offender would be one foot away in the case of sexual harassment and no more than six feet away in the case of a "potential assault" situation. Keeping a narrow beam of light on someones face when close up would be difficult given the level of anxiety.

I see this as an option to replace Pepper Spray that is illegal in many countries and has serious limitations when used by an untrained individual.

My best option so far is strip Chip on Board (COB) led with a length of 3" and powered by 3 watts. About 450 lumens. Lux at 1 foot from a 120 degree flood is 1,600.

I would prefer a 5 watt LED but the heat dissipation is problematic.

Any comments? I may go with a KickStarter campaign to see if this would be attractive to women. 

*https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1015833300/781403802?token=b5a03a44*


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## Theodore41

As I have some "tactical" lights,I ask if it is possible to change the strobe mode frequency,from say 10Hz,to 18Hz,as the Dutch officer suggests that it is better for self defense.


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## Dave D

Theodore41 said:


> Is there a possibility to see these lights going to stores so as to have one?



The Tactical Lights are available from the below website.

The Original.

http://www.knivesandtools.nl/nl/pt/-eden-tdl-20-tactische-zaklamp.htm

Which has now been upgraded.

http://www.knivesandtools.nl/nl/pt/-eden-tdl25-police-version-tactische-zaklamp.htm


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## wolfgaze

The strobe on my Zebralight SC5 makes me feel nauseous at even when I'm pointing it away from me... I would think it would be effective at disorienting/deterring individuals if their eyes react the same way that mine do....

Edit: I believe the strobe mode I'm referring to is *19Hz*


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## vadimax

bdogps said:


> Hey mate, is there a reason why LEO do not use headlamps? My assumption is that they would be more advantageous since you have a free hand. I know surefire made the watch with the torch built in, but I reckon a headlamp would be better. Thanks mate.



You're right, man  All the evil one will need to do is to fire at the light source to score a headshot


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## bykfixer

Hopefully back on topic:
It would be great if the manufacturers would place the frequency on the package (or in e-literature) so the officer on a budget could decide if said product sold by A B or C has the frequency that was determined to be disorienting yet not allow unseen subtle movements by the perp.

Those folks starting out work for peanuts and in many cases choose their own edc as a backup to the dept issued SL20x or what-have-you. So they don't have the extra coin for trial and error in many cases. And when it's up to you if you go home safe or not many times taking others word for something isn't the best idea.


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## Bullzeyebill

OT post and references to it removed.

Bill


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## lumen aeternum

Dave D said:


> The Tactical Lights are available from the below website.
> 
> The Original.
> 
> http://www.knivesandtools.nl/nl/pt/-eden-tdl-20-tactische-zaklamp.htm
> 
> Which has now been upgraded.
> 
> http://www.knivesandtools.nl/nl/pt/-eden-tdl25-police-version-tactische-zaklamp.htm



The batteries they advertise with it are flat top. Can it take button top or is the battery compartment too short?
A pocket clip would be very useful for this small light. Lens down.

British site (English descriptions)
https://www.knivesandtools.co.uk/en/ct/eden-torches.htm

Not sure what they mean in the description of the holsters:
" The open loop holsters are more compact and can therefore be used better if you can not carry the flashlight completely to the side of your body. The closed loop holsters are better if you can carry the holster aside of your body."

"side of the body" in the original language is unclear -- are they talking about carrying at 9 o-clock (side of body) vs 7 o-clock? Or "on your belt" vs "attached to a strap on a vest?"


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## lumen aeternum

Grizzlyb said:


> In bright daylight on a distance of 2 meters you can't look in the strobelight anymore. You simply can't. You 100% Will close your eyes, put your hands up to protect your eyes or turn away.
> Eather way, our advantage.
> 
> This light is comming close to the results we have with Pepperspray. Without all the known problems of spray.
> But it will only last for a few seconds, so *it still is* only the short term tactical advancement of arresting a temporary blind person.
> The LED is changed to a XP-L HI with a color temp 4200 Kelvin. It has 2800 lux at 3 meters.



Why did you choose 3 meters as the distance for your spec -- maximum practical engagement distance given achievable brightness?
What is the diameter of your light's hot spot at 3m (important for hitting the target)?
Lux is an odd measurement, candela is more commonly stated by light manufacturers.

The Mag-Tac primary cell model with 320 Lumen has 9267 Cd which converts to 1030 Lux at 3m.
The rechargeable with 543 Lumen has 8171 Cd which converts to 908 Lux at 3m.

http://www.rapidtables.com/calc/light/candela-to-lux-calculator.htm


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## Theodore41

Grizzlyb said:


> But it will only last for a few seconds, so *it still is* only the short term tactical advancement of arresting a temporary blind person.
> The LED is changed to a XP-L HI with a color temp 4200 Kelvin. It has 2800 lux at 3 meters.


When the lumens are about 1000,the blindness lasts a few seconds,but if they are 32,000,how much time would the blindness last?I say this,because I have ordered a Imalent DX80 with 32,000Lm and 163,000Cd, and it is on its way now.


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## stephenk

bykfixer said:


> Hopefully back on topic:
> It would be great if the manufacturers would place the frequency on the package (or in e-literature) so the officer on a budget could decide if said product sold by A B or C has the frequency that was determined to be disorienting yet not allow unseen subtle movements by the perp.
> 
> Those folks starting out work for peanuts and in many cases choose their own edc as a backup to the dept issued SL20x or what-have-you. So they don't have the extra coin for trial and error in many cases. And when it's up to you if you go home safe or not many times taking others word for something isn't the best idea.


I agree. I think Eagtac is the only manufacturer I've seen that states the strobe frequency. All should do it. There is also a trend towards strobes that change between two frequencies, rather than a constant frequency. As a light painting photographer who uses strobes for artistic purposes, I prefer constant frequency strobes.


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## Theodore41

I think K70 is such a double frequency strobe.


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## kj2

Theodore41 said:


> I think K70 is such a double frequency strobe.


Is has. Played with it last weekend


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## Moreira

Dear friends,

I´ve been at CPF since 2007 (when Fenix L2T was a dream for people in South America). Unfortunately I´ve lost my log in. Now I created a new one just to get more info about this topic.

I know this topic is pretty old but is also pretty informative and I did not find this level of discussion on any other site. I am a police officer and I want to use this info during instructions to my colleagues in my country.


Dear Grizzlyb, do you have any uupdated article, any paper that I can use as basis for my lecture?

Thanks in advance.


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## kj2

He hasn't been logged-in for 3 years now. Doubt he will respond..


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## thermal guy

Might just be busy. 🤔😁😁


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## Dave D

Moreira said:


> Dear Grizzlyb, do you have any uupdated article, any paper that I can use as basis for my lecture?
> 
> Thanks in advance.



Grizz retired from the Police in 2015 and no longer visits CPF.

I have emailed him but don't know if the email address that I have for him is current or not.


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## kj2

Dave D said:


> Grizz retired from the Police in 2015 and no longer visits CPF.
> 
> I have emailed him but don't know if the email address that I have for him is current or not.


Visited him, at his work, before he retired. Cool guy. Talked flashlights and stuff. Showed me around the Amsterdam police training ground. Great experience


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## grinsefalle

Does anybody knkow, if the project is still active after Koen's retirement? 
The Eden TDL25 flashlight disappeared from the German/Austrian knivesandtools website because of missing certification. It is still available on the UK/NL website..


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