# Budget Lights / At what price point !



## old4570 (Feb 4, 2010)

We have a budget sub-forum ....

So at what price point does a flashlight become BUDGET ! 

Remember now , we are talking price not brand ...


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## Norm (Feb 4, 2010)

< $50 ?


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## Empath (Feb 4, 2010)

The term "budget" is allusive, perhaps because it has been brought into play to keep from openly saying what might seem not so PC.

"Budget" in this case, though, can't be pinned down with a price point. It varies. I could be defined, if a point needs stated, as _the point that the lack of quality as a price saving feature becomes apparent_. You might find some dealers or some brands sell nothing but these "budget" lights. Some, you might find have a quality line, and a lower quality line that has apparent cuts in quality to offer a lower price.

There are some lower priced lights that are not budget lights. By the stated description, lights like Underwater Kinetics, Pelican, some brands of old established standards and such would not be bargain lights, even though it's selling prices may be lower than some "budget" lights. For example, a Princeton Tec Blast wouldn't be consdered "budget", since it's quality is great for what it is, yet it's much lower in price than perhaps a Ultrafire tactical type Surefire work-a-like.

So, at what price point? Again,*the point that the lack of quality as a price saving feature becomes apparent.*


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## TooManyGizmos (Feb 4, 2010)

I would think it has more to do with where it was purchased - and made - and assembled - rather than price.

There-in lies quality and reliability issues that define it as a budget light. 
Budget = low cost , inferior craftsmanship , and low quality control .

It often means a light you have to repair , modify , clean , re-solder or up-grade ... as soon as you receive it .

When you get it - if you have to shake it or bang it , to get it to work .... it was a budget light .
.


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## LeifUK (Feb 4, 2010)

It's hard to say. I've seen cheap lights in the local DIY shop. They have a weak beam, and attach to metal using a magnet. Great as an emergency light at home. But the QC is probably quite good, and defects low. Then how about the Mini Maglite LED? Cheap-ish, but good QC, and decent build, albeit a plastic lamp window. My Akoray K106 is built well, but some samples are no good. Clearly a budget light. 

I would define budget as being cheap in price when compared to a light with a similar specification from a mainstream manufacturer such as Fenix or 4Sevens. That way the 4Sevens Quark Mini and Fenix L0D are excluded from being budget lights, even though they offer excellent value, whereas the Akoray's and DIY store specials are budget lights. 

Most budget lights reduce cost by avoiding European/US dealers, sometimes having a modest surface coating (no type 3 HA), sometimes having a rough finish, sometimes having a lower grade LED emitter, and usually but not always quite poor QC. It is hard to be precise, but I bet most of us know which lights fit into the budget category.


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## TooManyGizmos (Feb 4, 2010)

Yeah ... it's like pornography.

Hard to define , but you know it when you see it .

That's why us flashaholics get aroused ... when we see either !
.


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## T0RN4D0 (Feb 4, 2010)

You can not set a price point for the whole world of enlightenment. 


The budget/premium price depends on what you are buying. A premium key chain light will of course be cheaper then a SST-50 budget light. 

So not all lights under $50 are budget. And not all lights that cost more than $50 are premium. 


You can put it this way- If you aren't overpaying for your light, then its budget. :nana:


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## shark_za (Feb 4, 2010)

A Surefire G2 is a budget light but does not belong in this space. 

I think we should just enjoy it and hope people don't take it personal when their torch gets banished here


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## LightChaser (Feb 4, 2010)

LeifUK said:


> I would define budget as being cheap in price when compared to a light with a similar specification from a mainstream manufacturer such as Fenix or 4Sevens. That way the 4Sevens Quark Mini and Fenix L0D are excluded from being budget lights, even though they offer excellent value, whereas the Akoray's and DIY store specials are budget lights.



I like this definition of a budget light


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## Norm (Feb 4, 2010)

LeifUK said:


> I would define budget as being cheap in price when compared to a light with a similar specification from a mainstream manufacturer such as Fenix or 4Sevens. That way the 4Sevens Quark Mini and Fenix L0D are excluded from being budget lights, even though they offer excellent value, whereas the Akoray's and DIY store specials are budget lights.


I don't understand your logic why exclude "4Sevens Quark Mini and Fenix L0D"?
How can a particular manufacturer be excluded? if they make a light that offers value for money at a budget price.
Norm


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## LightChaser (Feb 4, 2010)

LeifUK said:


> I would define budget as being cheap in price when compared to a light with a similar specification from a mainstream manufacturer such as Fenix or 4Sevens. That way the 4Sevens Quark Mini and Fenix L0D are excluded from being budget lights, even though they offer excellent value, whereas the Akoray's and DIY store specials are budget lights.





Norm said:


> I don't understand your logic why exclude "4Sevens Quark Mini and Fenix L0D"?
> How can a particular manufacturer be exclude? if they make a light that offers value for money at a budget price.
> Norm



I guess the reason I like LeifUK's definition is that it doesn't set a price point, but rather, compares any given light to a benchmark light. Of course, that raises another question - which light to pick as a benchmark. 

I liken it to the size comparisons in Doug P. / Quickbeam's reviews, where he compared (almost) everything to a MiniMag AA since pretty much everybody knows how big that is. 

Quark and Fenix lights are pretty common now, and like Norm said, they offer good value for money, so that's why I think they'd make good benchmarks. By no means are they cheap, but I wouldn't call them expensive either. 

That's my 2 cents.


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## vali (Feb 4, 2010)

Yeah, its like porn...

Most of the time its easy to say if a light is a budget or a "premiun" one, but then you find some non-budget brands near the budget edge (ITP, Olight, maratac, maglite...) and some budget brands with a good reliability record (Romisen and even the first akorays, until they messed it up).

The shiningbeam store is a perfect example of what I am saying. Their offerings are more or less in this particular range, where the budget blends with the non-budget. IMHO, of course.


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## how2 (Feb 4, 2010)

LeifUK said:


> I would define budget as being cheap in price when compared to a light with a similar specification from a mainstream manufacturer such as Fenix or 4Sevens.



+1



T0RN4D0 said:


> The budget/premium price depends on what you are buying. A premium key chain light will of course be cheaper then a SST-50 budget light.
> 
> So not all lights under $50 are budget. And not all lights that cost more than $50 are premium.
> 
> ...



+1


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## gallonoffuel (Feb 4, 2010)

Empath said:


> So, at what price point? Again,*the point that the lack of quality as a price saving feature becomes apparent.*




This. 

When you say to yourself "I can't believe this product is only $X.XX", bring it home, and find the shortcuts used to cut costs that maybe jeopardize reliability, function, or aesthetics. 

I also consider clones of existing lights to be 'budget', as they inherently will be cheaper since they have had no R&D investment of their own. You are getting a design cheaper than it would otherwise be available on the open market, because you don't have to pay those pesky research and development guys to do their thing.


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## speedsix (Feb 4, 2010)

shark_za said:


> A Surefire G2 is a budget light but does not belong in this space.
> 
> I think we should just enjoy it and hope people don't take it personal when their torch gets banished here


 
Why isn't a Surefire G2 a budget light? Is the cheapest light that Surefire makes and retails for $36 last I checked. That fits into the budget idea to me. 

It is well made but performance is fairly low. I am speaking about the G2 incans that I have owned. They are pretty cheesy when you really think about how they work. No on/off clicky, twist the cap BS. If you happen to leave the cap twisted in the wrong place and stand it on the bezel, it will turn itself on and may cause a fire but will surely run out of juice when you need it most. The bulbs burn out, the batteries run down quickly. 

I couldn't wait to get rid of my Surefire G2. I had three of them that I just sold and I will miss them about as much as my old 3 C cell Maglight. In other words, there are better, smaller, brighter and cheaper lights out now that make the older ones obsolete.

I just bought a Romisen RC-G2 and it is in all ways better than my old Surefire G2s. Just like my Surefire G2s were better than the old Maglites. 

For less then $12 shipped which is 1/3 the price of the Surefire G2, I can have a light that uses AA batteries, runs longer, shines just as bright, bulb will never burn out or break and I don't have to use two hands to turn it on.


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## LeifUK (Feb 4, 2010)

Norm said:


> I don't understand your logic why exclude "4Sevens Quark Mini and Fenix L0D"?
> How can a particular manufacturer be exclude? if they make a light that offers value for money at a budget price.
> Norm



LightChaser has given a good answer. 

Brands such as 4Sevens and Fenix provide reasonable quality at a reasonable price along with a proper warranty and QC. Hence they are not unreasonable benchmarks. 

In my opinion the Quark Mini is reasonably priced but even $40 is not cheap. The Fenix L0D is a very basic light, with one low mode and no lamp glass. But I suppose many people might think of the L0D as a budget light. 

Maybe we could think of budget lights as those that cause some CPF moderators to twitch excessively, and curse under their breath.


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## LeifUK (Feb 4, 2010)

gallonoffuel said:


> This.
> 
> When you say to yourself "I can't believe this product is only $X.XX", bring it home, and find the shortcuts used to cut costs that maybe jeopardize reliability, function, or aesthetics.



I only have a few lights, but when I compare my Akoray to a Fenix and a Quark, they are closer than one might think. The Akoray has CNC machining, a nice reflector, a good LED and nice square cut threads. What the Akoray really lacks is QC, so most are okay, many aren't. And there are one or two quality drops such as hand soldering. 

It seems to me that Akoray et al could increase prices by 15%, and implement proper QC, and small improvements such as machine soldering, and the lights would be rather good.


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## NonSenCe (Feb 4, 2010)

to me the word budget means price thats 25%-70% less than other comparable lights in its cathegory that are made by "more reputable" manufacturers.. (ref. fenix ld20 at 60$ vs romisen n3 at 25$)

general price limit for budget light is under 40$ to me too. (used to be alot less before i knew of cpf) 

but for lights that are more expensive by nature (mce sst etc lights the limit is raised accordingly..

and about akoray.. its about 20 dollars and the next cheapest programmable light is what.. jetbeam pro1 at around 70 dollars? significant difference. the programmablility is the key why it is such an bargain budget gem.


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## Illum (Feb 4, 2010)

TooManyGizmos said:


> Yeah ... it's like pornography.
> 
> Hard to define , but you know it when you see it .
> 
> ...



There is a fine line seperating physical attractiveness and sensually appealing...and no, arousal is an essentially contested topic.

There are lights out there thank I find neither attractive nor appealing...so are some entities of porn:thinking:


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## AlphaZen (Feb 4, 2010)

Empath said:


> The term "budget" is allusive, perhaps because it has been brought into play to keep from openly saying what might seem not so PC.
> 
> "Budget" in this case, though, can't be pinned down with a price point. It varies. I could be defined, if a point needs stated, as _the point that the lack of quality as a price saving feature becomes apparent_. You might find some dealers or some brands sell nothing but these "budget" lights. Some, you might find have a quality line, and a lower quality line that has apparent cuts in quality to offer a lower price.
> 
> ...


Right on, man. Right on. 

Defining what budget means is subjective, like the term value. It is dynamic, rather than static, because it is always relative to something else and can not be defined by a specific price point. 

Certain personality types will have difficulty agreeing to a lack of a quantifiable definition, but it seems necessary in this case.


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## Unforgiven (Feb 4, 2010)

LeifUK said:


> .....
> 
> Maybe we could think of budget lights as those that cause some CPF moderators to twitch excessively, and curse under their breath.




Perfect. We'll go with that. 


Actually, Empaths as well as a few others descriptions sounds pretty accurate to me. We'll see how it goes.


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## Vikas Sontakke (Feb 5, 2010)

Is some sacrilege allowed in the budget light forum e.g. reply #15 from speedsix. I am waiting for Empath to read it and make it go away 

- Vikas


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## gcbryan (Feb 5, 2010)

A budget light says nothing about quality (at least directly).

It says that it's a light of value or a light where your budget is limited or of a major concern.

I have a dive light that was $95 and it's a budget light because it's output is at least 500 or so lumens OTF (MC-E). It has magnetic switching and uses two 18650's.

The non-budget version's are $500-$700.

All of the Romisen lights are budget lights. Some Underwater Kinetic lights are budget and some are overpriced lights that should be budget lights.

Ultrafire and Alkoray lights are budget.

All are easily fixable if they need fixing.

Plastic molded and glued component lights that can't be fixed are when budget and cheap would be synonymous

Budget to me is a good thing. A Honda is a budget car. A BMW is not. I'm glad Honda's are around.

Every time I think about getting a "better" light I order a budget light first from DX and then never have a reason to "upgrade". When I get what I want for $20 or less and then I see the name brand version for $60 I don't have any reason to go for it.

Let's face it, for the most part the more expensive lights are there for reasons other than functionality. They're prettier, better for collecting or for sitting on a shelf, they are probably more robust when that is an issue. If you're not using a light in any kind of tactical way the only reason you have more expensive lights is just because you want them and not for functional reasons.


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## shark_za (Feb 5, 2010)

Is there such a beast as an American budget light ?


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## bluepilgrim (Feb 5, 2010)

Budget as opposed to what? Premium? 
Premium would mean 'extra nice' stuff that's good but is not necessary, and you pay for it. Budget, then, would mean, a reduced priced by leaving off the extras -- things you don't need for the purpose you are buying the light for -- like fancy finish, titanium or other more expensive materials for the barrel, brand name appeal, a bit of convenience at times. Budget doesn't really mean unreliable or not functioning well -- just leaving off the extras: and what is 'extra' depends on what your functional needs are.


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## gcbryan (Feb 5, 2010)

Budget in some cases can mean a product that isn't yet available in any other category.

Budget dive lights brought me to CPF in the first place (along with DX). The traditional dive light manufacturers weren't using the latest leds and other technology. I had to get a budget light and even put up with some QA issues because I couldn't get what I wanted by just paying a little more.

Sometimes to get what you want you have to modify a budget model and do it yourself.


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## was.lost.but.now.found (Feb 5, 2010)

Nice thread.


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## Flying Turtle (Feb 5, 2010)

I think for me a budget light probably falls in the less than $20 or maybe $10 price range. It is also, more often than not, something odd or unusual or just plain goofy. They are almost always impulse buys, as much as I hate to admit it.

Geoff


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## old4570 (Feb 5, 2010)

Interesting responses so far .


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## astro4554 (Feb 5, 2010)

People buy torches, or flashlights if you prefer, for different reasons. It’s not really up to any of us to make a judgement on the individual preference, I’d suggest.

Some people buy torches, cars, houses and lifestyles to impress other people. Whereas, many people are only intent on buying what impresses them within the budget they assign to their hobby (or lifestyle).

I think there’s room for “cheap” people like me with a solid bank balance on this forum, who prefers to play with potential tat, at a very low cost, as a hobby rather than commit my financial investments to something that doesn’t garner a profit. 

I have the suspicion that my hard earned cash will be going to a suitable charity though, unless my grandchildren pull their socks up!


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## LightChaser (Feb 5, 2010)

Empath said:


> The term "budget" is allusive, perhaps because it has been brought into play to keep from openly saying what might seem not so PC.
> 
> "Budget" in this case, though, can't be pinned down with a price point. It varies. I could be defined, if a point needs stated, as _the point that the lack of quality as a price saving feature becomes apparent_.





LeifUK said:


> I would define budget as being cheap in price when compared to a light with a similar specification from a mainstream manufacturer such as Fenix or 4Sevens.





T0RN4D0 said:


> You can not set a price point for the whole world of enlightenment.
> 
> The budget/premium price depends on what you are buying. A premium key chain light will of course be cheaper then a SST-50 budget light.
> 
> So not all lights under $50 are budget. And not all lights that cost more than $50 are premium.



I may be opening up a whole different can of worms here by trying to combine the ideas immediately above (and in the rest of the thread), but I'd like to propose that we ask a different question: in a specific class of lights, what light offers decent quality at a reasonable price point? In other words, what light can we point to as a benchmark light?

Again, I go back to good old Quickbeam's reviews - he (almost) always compared the review light to a MiniMag AA as a size reference because, well, everybody would be familiar with it. It also helped that in its time, the MiniMag AA would (probably) have been considered a benchmark for other AA lights. 

Now, this means that we would have to identify certain lights as benchmarks for their respective classes. Think of it this way - Joe Public asked you to recommend a light to keep on his keychain / pocket / glove box / tool box / any other place, what would you recommend? Note that some flashaholics may considers some of these lights inexpensive, but Joe Public may find them expensive (though not out-of-your-mind expensive). 

I have a few category or class suggestions listed below. Your choices may vary of course, but I hope eventually, we reach some sort of consensus. For example:

simple keychain light: Fenix E01
+ I'm sure there are cheaper AAA lights out there, but this one is fairly inexpensive, but as others can attest to, is built like a tank. 

high power / multi mode keychain light: 

pocket / belt light: 

(maybe) P60 type light: Surefire G2
+ We know it's pretty well made and reasonably priced. 
- I'm not sure about prices of other P60 offerings either since the range of lights available in my neck of the woods is pretty limited.

So, what do you guys think?


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## old4570 (Feb 5, 2010)

Hmmm , Benchmarks ... 

What ever light is chosen , unfortunately it will still be personal perception .
I think a better idea would be , how long have you owned the light , and is it still good ... 

No point buying a light , testing it , and all is fine , and only to find that after a few hours of use / runtime , it dies on you .
I think a list of lights that are still working after say 3 months of ownership or even 6 months ... And not shelf queens ! 

In fact how many hours would most have on high with there lights ? 
I have been using a MTE SSC P7 to test 18650 batteries , and I dare say it has a few hours on it in high by now , and its going great . Though I did pull it down and put it together my way. Ive had it for over 6 months , and it is capable of drawing a little over 3A measured at the tail , and shows no sign of letting go . 

A list of lights that have hoed a hard road and lived , would be great ..
Equally good a list of lights that have died , or given problems , as well as the cause of said death .. 

I think whats needed is hard facts , rather than opinions .


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