# Announcing the brand new AE XENIDE! (UPDATED with more info)



## MattK (Apr 12, 2007)

Hi folks;

I finally received permission to give you this information and show some pictures. 

The AE Xenide is a complementary product and does not replace the original Powerlight.

Three new models to choose from. 15W, 20W & 25W.
The 15W is pushing 950 lumens
The 20W is pushing 1200 lumens
The 25W is pushing 1500 lumens

The reflectors have been designed for improved reflectivity and crisper beam, resulting in more lumens on your target.

The on/off switch has been positioned just behind the light head and forward on the body, resulting in superior balance and single hand operation.

New AC charger carries CE, UL, & GS certifications.

Waterproof (IP67) and explosion proof testing is on going and should be completed by the end of May.

"Patent Pending" circuitry, resulting in enhanced performance.

Slimmer body for better hand grip.

Details & Pricing:

AEX20
25W $435+
Run time 120 minutes With 4000mAh battery
6 degree fixed spot
Length 13.5" With 4000mAh battery, 2Lb.
Includes:
Flashlight
4400mAh battery
AC Charger
Shoulder Strap
Black molded travel case
Non-slip rubber hand grip
Shock absorbing lens & end caps

AEX20
20W $395+
Run time 70 minutes With 2200mAh battery
6 degree fixed spot
Length 11.5" With 2200mAh battery, 1.9Lb.
Includes:
Flashlight
2200mAh battery
AC Charger
Shoulder Strap
Black molded travel case
Non-slip rubber hand grip
Shock absorbing lens & end caps

AEX15
15W $365+
Run time 80 minutes With 2200mAh battery
6 degree fixed spot
Length 11.5" With 2200mAh battery, 1.9Lb.
Includes:
Flashlight
2200mAh battery
AC Charger
Shoulder Strap
Black molded travel case
Non-slip rubber hand grip
Shock absorbing lens & end caps


Shipments to start mid-late May. We've made sure that we'll have product from the first shipment and will have pre-order links up next week.

As you can see from the images below the light is available is long and short configurations; 15/20W lights will ship as 'short' with an option for the long run battery as an accessory, the 25W will ship as a long with an option for the short battery. With the short battery in place length is ~11.5 and the weight is under 2lbs.


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## CLHC (Apr 12, 2007)

*Re: Announcing the brand new AE Powerlight II !*

Thanks for the preview *MattK*. Looking forward to its release in May!

Enjoy!


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## frogs3 (Apr 12, 2007)

*Re: Announcing the brand new AE Powerlight II !*

Matt,

Do you know what the projected runtimes are for each of these models?

Thanks,

HAK


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## leprechaun414 (Apr 12, 2007)

*Re: Announcing the brand new AE Powerlight II !*

Cool. Thanks for the info. Still love my original PL. Good to see new product.


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## MattK (Apr 13, 2007)

*Re: Announcing the brand new AE Powerlight II !*

frogs3 - I would guesstimate the following:
14w: 2hr on small, 4 on large
18W 1.5hr on small, 3 on large
24w: 1hr on small, 2 on large


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## cchurchi (Apr 13, 2007)

*Re: Announcing the brand new AE Powerlight II !*

These look pretty good, I'm just wondering if you really get 1 full hour of output out of the supplied battery pack (which I assume contains 3 X 18650 batteries in series). My PL 24 battery pack (6 X 18650) only got 1.5 hours of runtime because of the inability to top off each battery individually. The charger would stop charging with a few batteries well below 4.20 volts.Really like the switch near the front of the light. Is the start-up of this new model quicker then the already quick start-up of the previous version?


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## Xe54 (Apr 13, 2007)

*Re: Announcing the brand new AE Powerlight II !*



cchurchi said:


> [snip] My PL 24 battery pack (6 X 18650) only got 1.5 hours of runtime because of the inability to top off each battery individually. The charger would stop charging with a few batteries well below 4.20 volts.[snip]



That's not good. If I were designing a premium rechargeable product, I would make sure to design in a battery charge controller which has access to each cell and a discharge monitor that ensures the load is disconnected once any cell reaches the appropriate cutoff voltage.

The issues of unbalanced charge and cell reversal during discharge is quite a problem with NiMH cells used in devices which were not designed with them in mind, and especially bad in cases where large numbers of cells are paralleled.

I'm actually a bit surprized to discover that Li-ion powered commercially designed packs lack cell balancing supervisory circuits.


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## NAW (Apr 15, 2007)

*Re: Announcing the brand new AE Powerlight II !*

What is the length of the light with the longer battery?

And do you know what the kelvin temp is?


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## Phaserburn (Apr 15, 2007)

*Re: Announcing the brand new AE Powerlight II !*

Any components of this new light, like the reflector, useable on the AE I?Any new components in the works for the AE I? 35W for example...?


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## MattK (Apr 15, 2007)

*Re: Announcing the brand new AE Powerlight II !*

I think the long battery is ~3 inches longer. I don't know bulb temps - will inquire.

I don't know about reverse compatability for the AE I - I do know filters/lenses from the original light are forward compatable. There's a tailcap switch option coming shortly for the original light as well as the already released higher capacity 2600 & 5200mah batteries and and an IR lense.


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## bxstylez (Apr 15, 2007)

*Re: Announcing the brand new AE Powerlight II !*

will these be running the 4200k bulb, as opposed to the bluish 6000k bulb?


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## NAW (Apr 15, 2007)

*Re: Announcing the brand new AE Powerlight II !*

Mattk,

when you receive the shipments of Powerlights II, will you be able to take pictures comparing it with PL24, Shorty & PL14?


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## stealthflash (Apr 16, 2007)

*Re: Announcing the brand new AE Powerlight II !*

I was also wondering about the color temp of the light. I hope its on the warmer side, but thats just my two cents.


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## MattK (Apr 16, 2007)

*Re: Announcing the brand new AE Powerlight II !*

Sure - easy 'nuff.



NAW said:


> Mattk,
> 
> when you receive the shipments of Powerlights II, will you be able to take pictures comparing it with PL24, Shorty & PL14?


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## MattK (Apr 27, 2007)

Updated with pricing and details. I'll get color temps Monday.


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## LuxLuthor (Apr 27, 2007)

Thanks for the update, Matt. That is one light I never got, but those look pretty darn handy. Look forward to hearing/seeing more about them.

:candle:


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## MattK (Apr 30, 2007)

Bulbs are 6K for all three models.


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## Daekar (May 31, 2007)

Is there any word on the new Xenide lights? It's May 31st and they're still on pre-order... and I'm impatient!  I'm mostly interested in the 25W version but I'd like more specific information and specs before I put out that much cash. Also - it seems there were high-capacity batteries released for the original AE Powerlight.... are those higher capacities going to be available for the Xenide as well?


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## MattK (Jun 1, 2007)

The 20 + 25W Xenides should start shipping to dealers in about 10 days - we'll have them up on the website shortly for pre-order.

The 25W is shipping with a 4000mah cell as standard but we'll also be carrying an optional 4800mah battery. There will also be a 4500mah battery too but I decided not to carry it - it's only $5 less than the 4800 so for $5 why bother, right?

What specs did you want that were not listed above?


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## Daekar (Jun 1, 2007)

Hrmm... well:

1) Are the 4000mah and 4800mah cells the same physical size?
2) Can you substitute the 4800mah cell for the 4000mah that would normally ship with it for an "upgrade fee"..?
3) Does what does the travel case have room for?
4) Does the light charge through the tail? 
5) Is there an external charger that can charge the extra battery? How about a DC charger? Are all these pointless questions because it's the same stuff as the Powerlight uses? 
6) I assume the output curve will be flatly regulated, correct? I ask because I remember seeing that the WolfEyes 24W HID decreased something like 30% brightness over time...
7) Can we please get some photos next to other lights? Pretty please...? 
EDIT: What about the 5200mah battery on Batteryjunction right now?


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## Phaserburn (Jun 1, 2007)

Any pics of the new light next to the old AE?


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## Freaker (Jun 12, 2007)

It's been 10 days. Have they shipped to dealers yet?

I prepaid with Pacific Tatical Solutions and I almost feel like I'm left hanging now with the lack of info.


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## MattK (Jun 12, 2007)

AE is waiting on a component so we're still about 10-14 days from the lights shipping to dealers.


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## LuxLuthor (Jun 14, 2007)

*Re: Announcing the brand new AE Powerlight II !*



Xe54 said:


> That's not good. If I were designing a premium rechargeable product, I would make sure to design in a battery charge controller which has access to each cell and a discharge monitor that ensures the load is disconnected once any cell reaches the appropriate cutoff voltage.
> 
> The issues of unbalanced charge and cell reversal during discharge is quite a problem with NiMH cells used in devices which were not designed with them in mind, and especially bad in cases where large numbers of cells are paralleled.
> 
> I'm actually a bit surprized to discover that Li-ion powered commercially designed packs lack cell balancing supervisory circuits.



Matt, can you address these legitimate concerns? Are these packs just putting however many sets of parallel cells in series with no balance circuits?


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## MattK (Jun 15, 2007)

*Re: Announcing the brand new AE Powerlight II !*

Not yet - but I've sent AE an email asking for details.


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## Freaker (Jul 3, 2007)

Any update on what's going on?


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## MattK (Jul 3, 2007)

From AE light regarding charging:

"...the charging is based on the total voltage, i.e. for 3 cells in series, the charger stops when the total voltage reaches 12.6V when all cells are fully charged. When fully charged the voltage should be 12.6~12.8V. Discharging, detects a minimum cutoff voltage of any individual cell to make sure the load is disconnected when any given cell reaches a critical low voltage to prevent over-discharging of any (for safety). There shouldn’t be any problem with not being able to fully charge all cells. We’re not monitoring individual cells during charging but do monitor individual cells in rotation to check voltages during discharge to prevent discharging below the cutoff voltage."

Xenides should be shipping in a matter of days...


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## LuxLuthor (Jul 3, 2007)

So there is no overcharge or cell balancing protection? 

I mean no disrespect, Matt, but that could get dangerous with one cell rising higher and higher, and charging not stopping for that high cell because the others pull down the pack average voltage. It is the very scenario leading to explosive thermal runaway that we have been discussing....and exposing an unaware user and the retail seller to significant risk....so I just want to ask about that specific point again. 

For example I had a set of 4 Lithium unprotected cells in a 1D Maglite in series. After using it for about 6 months and just charging all the cells together because I didn't yet understand this danger, when I took out the cells, there was 1 (or 2) cells that had dramatically higher voltage than the other two or three. The universal lithium charger I had been using did the same thing of delivering charging current until the 4s pack reached a pack voltage of 16.8V (assuming each cell was at 4.2V each).


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## MattK (Jul 5, 2007)

Overcharge protection is a basic componenent of any Li-Poly circuit so I would not be concerned in that regard. AE's battery pack was engineered by someone who knows that they're doing. 12.6V (4.2V per cell) is the industry standard charge and the circuit, by design, distributes the incoming current equally so I don't see the risk. Cell balancing makes for a far more complex (multichannel) and expensive charging/battery solution with minimal real world gains and the approach that AE is using is exactly the same as that used by the makers of literally millions of laptop batteries. PCB's for Li-ion packs are built to be voltage specific and almost none incorporate true cell balancing technology. 

Thermal runaway is most likely to occur in a cell that has been over-discharged and formed copper shunts as a result. Cell balancing is not required to make a lithium pack safe; all cell balancing will really add is that it would maximize the charge in each cell resulting, potentially, in slightly longer runtimes and a definite and considerable increase in cost.


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## brightnorm (Jul 6, 2007)

*Re: Announcing the brand new AE Powerlight II !*



Xe54 said:


> That's not good. If I were designing a premium rechargeable product, I would make sure to design in a battery charge controller which has access to each cell and a discharge monitor that ensures the load is disconnected once any cell reaches the appropriate cutoff voltage.
> 
> The issues of unbalanced charge and cell reversal during discharge is quite a problem with NiMH cells used in devices which were not designed with them in mind, and especially bad in cases where large numbers of cells are paralleled.
> 
> I'm actually a bit surprized to discover that Li-ion powered commercially designed packs lack cell balancing supervisory circuits.


I have to agree. This light is very appealing but I am conservative when it come to battery safety and wouldn't feel comfortable owning this light as described. If it could accept protected 18650's that would be a different story.

Brightnorm


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## MattK (Jul 6, 2007)

*Re: Announcing the brand new AE Powerlight II !*

Folks, I don't think you're entirely getting this. Anyone here who's familiar with my posts or has spoken to me on the topic of li-ion battery usage knows that I'm very concerned about safety issues with regards to Li-Ion technology and it's mis-use. No offense intended but what I believe is happening in this thread is a lack of understanding about how li-poly charge/discharge technology works so let's see if I can clear this up....

Firstly; the situation cchurchi described that started this is a performance issue; optimized batteries. The very fact that the charger was shutting down is proof that the PCB is doing it's job and is thus safe. Xe54 then raised a concern about unbalanced charges and NiMh cell; a parallel (no pun intended) cannot be drawn here for a variety of reasons; we're not dealing with large numbers of parallel cells, the chemistries are radically different and Nickel based batteries do not normally have a protection circuit which ALL properly designed Li-Ion batteries do. Cell BALANCING is not intrinisically safer.

Secondly; the battery pack approach used for the AE Lights is exactly that used SAFELY for MILLIONS of laptops and other portable devices. It is a tried and proven technology and is exactly how a li-ion battery pack SHOULD be built. If their approach worries you it's time to discard your laptops, digicams, camcorders, PDA's and cellphones because they work the exact same way.

A properly constructed Li-Poly pack (which the AE light batteries are)basically is 'protected 18650's' but it's a battery pack made with 18650's in serias and parallel with a PCB designed for the correct voltage and current. When you buy a single protected 18650 it's an 18650 with a PCB for a single cell that is designed for a 3.7V (insert 3.6.4.2 etc it's all the same) single cell application; when you buy an AE light battery it's a battery pack with a correct PCB for the voltage and current.

I want to make it crystal clear since there seems to be confusion/misinformation regarding this: a pack/charger built for cell balancing is NOT SAFER, all the balancing technology does is optimize the charge to each cell resulting in potentially longer runtimes (maybe) and a definite and major cost increase as you now need a multichannel charger and MUCH more cimplex pack construction. Basically the only people using cell balancing widely are RC hobbyists, primarily for RC airplanes and competetive flying. Laptops do not use balance charge technology neither does any mainstream consumer device that I am aware of.

Here's a wiring diagram for a typical 11.1V PCB, as you can see overcharge/overdischarge protection is still per cell based. 







Port # Connection 
B+ To battery (+) 
B- To battery (-) 
P- Output (+) r Charger (+) 
P+ Output (+) r Charger (+) 
B1- To battery 2 (+) and battery 3 (-) 
B2- To battery 1 (+) and battery 2 (-) 

Overcharge Protection voltage 4.35V +/- 0.025V per single cell 
Overdischarge Protection voltage 2.4V +/-0.08V per single cell 
Overcurrent detection Protection 6.5 A (max) at 12.6V 
Continuous working current 3.0A (max) at 10.8V 
Over-charge protection response time 1 second (typical) 
Over-discharge protection response time 0.1 second (typical) 
Current consumption 30uA (max) 
Idle current 0.1uA (max) 
Internal resistance 130 m-ohms 
0V charging capability Yes 
Working temperature -40 ~ 85 C 
Dimensions Length 50+/-0.3mm
Width 16+/-0.2mm
Thickness 3.5mm (max)


For further reading on the topic; here's a good place to start: http://www.batteryuniversity.com/


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## LuxLuthor (Jul 6, 2007)

Matt, I'm glad to see some of these additional details in your last post that were not even hinted at in your post #27. 

I do not agree with all of your general statements about the benefit of pack balancing vis-a-vis safety, but I do not want to have my genuine questions and concerns escalate into you feeling like we are attacking your knowledge or credibility. Please understand that we are asking about these issues as a way for you to provide information and reassurance which your last post did--because this product looks so sweet!!! :thumbsup:

In general, I do not think it is wise to dismiss legitimate lithium safety concerns as simple confusion/misinformation, nor to misrepresent the reality about the safety of millions of laptop lithium packs as a way to reassure people. 

I don't know how many recall threads need to be posted, even though I realize these VERY EXPENSIVE recalls of millions of packs are not just a cell balancing issue. It also matters which battery brands & quality of PCB specs are being used. I asked these same questions of Dan from XeVision...and as a measure of my sincere inquiry, even took apart one of my expensive battery packs to see the actual PCB, battery brand (Samsung), and parallel/serial construction (they also do not use individual cell balancing in their packs).











Again, these are general questions where we were trying to get additional feedback. With some Chinese (& other sources) made products there can be shortcuts taken which are good to ask about. I really appreciate your being patient with us, giving additional information...and apologize if this comes accross the wrong way. They do look like beautiful lights.


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## SilverFox (Jul 7, 2007)

Hello Matt,

I am not sure we are totally following your argument…

If we assume that thermal runaway becomes an issue when a Li-Ion cell is charged in the 4.5 – 4.6 volt range, are you really suggesting that a balancing charge that limits each cells voltage to 4.21 volts is not safer than a charging algorithm that charges the cells in series and goes off of total pack voltage when total cell voltage is in the 4.375 volt range? 

Let’s see now, when you charge above 4.3 volts the electrolyte oxidizes and the internal resistance of the cell increases. This means that we could come up with a total pack voltage of 13.125 volts and have cell voltages of 4.3, 4.3, and 4.525 volts.

I would prefer to have a balancer involved and can live with cell voltages in the 4.21 volt range.

You are correct in that a balancing circuit is far more expensive than what has currently been used. The current charging circuit runs around $0.50 for each chip. Here is a balancing chip from TI that runs $1.45. While it is 3 times the cost, I don’t think the extra $5, or so, in total cost would be a deal breaker.

The computer laptop battery people have run tests that indicate that for the first 100 – 300 cycles, balancing offers little benefit, as long as premium cells are being used. However, as the cycle life is extended, balancing is a definite benefit. Balancing is also a benefit when lesser quality cells are used.

I should also point out that it is highly unlikely that cells charged to 4.375 volts will last for more than 100 cycles, so perhaps this discussion is not really worth having…

Tom


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## MattK (Jul 9, 2007)

The Sony battery laptop failures are not germane to this conversation and that's really a red herring IMO; the failure with those was in the production of the battery itself which was exacerbated by a way too aggressive charging regime, it has nothing to do with the PCB nor how the charge systems work in the AE lights and though a terrible situation for all involved it represents proportionately a miniscule number when viewed against the widespread usage of lithium ion batteries. A manufacturing defect compounded by a design flaw.

I'm not offended in any way by questions based upon legitimate concerns so long as those concerns are posted with a basic understanding of the facts. What I find frustrating is stuff like , "I am conservative when it come to battery safety and wouldn't feel comfortable owning this light as described. If it could accept protected 18650's that would be a different story." plus the earlier assertion that balance charging systems are intrinsically safer, "... I were designing a premium rechargeable product." I just find it a bit frustrating to read what is basically misinformation, IMO, that will now likely be endlessly repeated as gospel. 

AE uses Panasonic 18650's which have very tight tolerances (very closely matched). The tolerances, combined with a very effective PTC (and a quality PCB with a temp sensor (polyfuse)) will ensure against overcharge and the PTC & polyfuse will protect against thermal runaway. Is it, or any lithium pack perfectly, 100% safe? No. but there are multiple protection devices built into them to make them as safe as possible and that's why I pointed to the laptops, cell phones etc that we're all using because statistically those are 'safe' devices that are built the same way so to suggest that the AE Light's packs are intriniscally unsafe because they lack a balancing circuit seems either disingenious or misinformed.

I posted the pic of the PTC above so you can see that while PCB input is 13.8V the overcharge Protection voltage is 4.35V +/- 0.025V _per single cell_. This is not balancing though - it's a basic function of a PTC designed for a multicell battery. Now that PCB is not the same one that's used in the AE packs - I don't have access to that data - but the construction is typical and I believe the specifications to be as well. 

If you note my first response on the topic I said, "the charger stops when the total voltage reaches 12.6V" because that's what the CHARGERS circuitry is programmed to do. The chargers circuit is seperate from that of the batteries; the charger is looking for 12.6V which is the right number, the batteries PCB has it's own internal, per cell charge tolderances.

I hope this serves to clarify...


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## SilverFox (Jul 10, 2007)

Hello Matt,

Thanks for the clarification.

According to your information, it sounds like they are using premium cells, they limit the total pack voltage to 12.6 volts, and they also limit the individual cell voltage to a maximum of 4.35 volts. That should keep things from getting too far out of balance.

With premium cells and "normal" use, the cells should stay balanced for a few hundred cycles. Balance becomes an issue with aged cells and if you push them to their limits.

Tom


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## Phaserburn (Jul 10, 2007)

MattK said:


> If you note my first response on the topic I said, "the charger stops when the total voltage reaches 12.6V" because that's what the CHARGERS circuitry is programmed to do. The chargers circuit is seperate from that of the batteries; the charger is looking for 12.6V which is the right number, the batteries PCB has it's own internal, per cell charge tolderances.


 
Thanks, Matt. This clears up my own misconception. I thought the setup was allowing each cell to charge to 4.35V, but that is not the case. When will you have these badboys in stock? Can the older AE accessory lenses be used with the Xenide? Can the larger capacity battery be had to begin with for an upcharge?


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## MattK (Jul 10, 2007)

Hi Tom. 

Glad that helped to clarify things. You and I have talked Li-Ion safety so you know how strongly I feel on the topic. On a side note we really need to re-approach the FAQ if I can ever find the time..

David, I'm happy to report that AE emailed me this morning that shipping would begin on Thursday - so figure we'll have them the following Firday the 20th. IIRC the Powerlight lenses DO fit the Xenide but not vice versa. Larger capcity batteries will be available as an accessory (not to replace the standard battery). There will be 3 batteries available; the standard 4000mah, a 4400mah which I've decided to pass on for now and a 4800mah which I have coming with the lights. I passed on the 4500mah because the 4800's are only a few bucks more and for $5 who wouldn't want the extra 300mah?


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## Phaserburn (Jul 12, 2007)

Thanks Matt. Any idea what the 4800mah batt will cost?

I would love to see a pic of the Xenide and Powerlight side by side. Beamshots would also be a strong selling point because AE is stating the beam was improved.


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## MattK (Jul 12, 2007)

The 4800mah battery modules will sell for ~$130.

Beamshots will come eventually; I've never even seen a Xenide myself yet.


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## brightnorm (Jul 13, 2007)

MattK said:


> ...I'm not offended in any way by questions based upon legitimate concerns so long as those concerns are posted with a basic understanding of the facts. What I find frustrating is stuff like , "I am conservative when it come to battery safety and wouldn't feel comfortable owning this light as described. If it could accept protected 18650's that would be a different story"
> ... I just find it a bit frustrating to read what is basically misinformation, IMO, that will now likely be endlessly repeated as gospel...


 
Matt

I would never repeat any assumption based on my limited knowledge, unless it had been confirmed by CPF's known savants in this area. 

This thread provides open discussion among knowledgeable and (admittedly) not so knowledgeable CPFers leading to a "balanced" understanding of the issues. 

As a result of battery safety being questioned, even by uninformed folks like myself, other potential buyers concerned with safety will be well served by this thread and even more likely to purchase the product.

Brightnorm


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## Dukester (Jul 25, 2007)

Anything new to report?


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## [email protected] (Jul 25, 2007)

Dukester said:


> Anything new to report?


Matt should have them by now. The HO batteries have been delayed, Matt do you have any news on the HO batteries?

The build quality is much better than the original PowerLights, they feel solid and the smaller diameter fits much better in your hand with true one handed activation. 

Here a picture for size reference.


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## MattK (Jul 26, 2007)

Yes, they arrived a few days ago. We've been slammed with some military orders so I just haven't had time to get them listed but will do so very soon.

I didn't get my HO batteries either - Marc indicated that cell supplies has been an issue and that they'd ship them ASAP - a few weeks more.


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## K-T (Aug 11, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> ...
> 
> Here a picture for size reference.




It looks like the Bezel/balast is one unit, why is the Xenide with short battery only 20W while with high cap. battery it is 25W? Shouldn't it be the same only with shorter runtime?


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## MattK (Aug 11, 2007)

No but the short battery can be purchased as an accessory with the 25W to make it the same size as the 20W - at the cost of shorter runtimes of course.


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