# An emco for sale. Cheap! Missed again



## gadget_lover (Jul 13, 2008)

I just needed to cry a bit.


An Emco Maximat V10P was on craigs list for $450. It is the 10 inch swing with a milling head centered above the bed that was about 4 foot long. It sounded like it had all the things I was hoping to find in a mid sized lathe.

$450 Delivered.

To my door.

And I missed it. Again.








So which EMCO models are the best for a hobbyist? The last EMCO thread died to quick to discuss it.



Daniel


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## wquiles (Jul 13, 2008)

What about the Smithy brand of lathes? Here is one listed in the local craigslist. Does anyone know anything good/bad about this one?

http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/tls/750403764.html

Will


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## gadget_lover (Jul 13, 2008)

There are not a lot of hits when I search for that Smithy model. IT certainly looked nice.




Daniel


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## Anglepoise (Jul 13, 2008)

gadget_lover said:


> An Emco Maximat V10P was on craigs list for $450.
> $450 Delivered.
> 
> Daniel



Don't worry, be happy. That price is way too low. Was probably crap.


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## Mirage_Man (Jul 13, 2008)

Anglepoise said:


> Don't worry, be happy. That price is way too low. Was probably crap.



I'll second that. BTW the Emco lathe auction that was linked to in the other thread sells for like $10K is I'm not mistaken.


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## gadget_lover (Jul 13, 2008)

I have to wonder about that. The current economy and tendency to offshore everything has resulted in a lot of local machine shops closing down. I saw a couple where bridgport mills were cheap because they had to clear the rented space by the first of the month.

Even if a $4000 lathe was beat up, how bad could it be to repair? I've seen some products that resurface lathe ways, and would not bearings be the other big wear part?

Obviously I've never had to repair a bad lathe. 

Daniel


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## wquiles (Jul 13, 2008)

gadget_lover said:


> There are not a lot of hits when I search for that Smithy model. IT certainly looked nice.
> 
> 
> 
> Daniel



Per their web site, I could only find the *CZ-239*, not the *BZ-239G* the guy is listing. If really new, looks like a nice machine with the extras 
http://smithy.com/product_order.php?cid=2&scid=12&pid=6


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## precisionworks (Jul 13, 2008)

> Even if a $4000 lathe was beat up, how bad could it be to repair?


Imagine your worst nightmare, times two

Send the bed out for a regrind & lapping - minimum $1000 + half that much more for shipping.

Headstock needs new bearings? Nice machines use ABEC Class 7 bearings, sold only in matched pairs ... depending on size, you might not spend $1000 for two.

If the bed & bearings are bad, chances are pretty good that the change gears are marginal ... $1000 won't even touch a set.

Same with worn out half nuts on the carriage, which have to be hand fitted by someone who has the skill to do that.

You can spend a ton, without breaking a sweat. I've worked in factories where the machines had been beaten to death by many people over a lot of years. You'll save money by not buying something like that, unless you have lots of time on your hands, and don't need the machine to work for a year or so. It isn't my idea of fun.


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## Mirage_Man (Jul 13, 2008)

precisionworks said:


> Imagine your worst nightmare, times two
> 
> Send the bed out for a regrind & lapping - minimum $1000 + half that much more for shipping.
> 
> ...



Exactly why I'm buying a brand new machine.


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## gadget_lover (Jul 14, 2008)

Youch. No wonder they go so cheap. 



Still want bigger-better-faster

Daniel


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## precisionworks (Jul 14, 2008)

> Exactly why I'm buying a brand new machine.



Hard to go wrong that way, especially with a lathe like your new one. There are always good buys on used equipment, but a few of the 'cheap bargains' turn out to be expensive projects. Unless you can see, feel, touch, listen, and run under power, used lathes are iffy. Add to that that most all of the really great American makers closed shop about 20 years ago & parts can be hard to source.

I do envy you, Mirage Man. You'll be making chips within a day of uncrating your machine:thumbsup:


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## scott.cr (Jul 14, 2008)

precisionworks said:


> Send the bed out for a regrind & lapping - minimum $1000 + half that much more for shipping.


I had a job as a QC manager at a job machine shop a few years ago. Out of four lathes, two were in non-operating condition. One of them was an old South Bend that was purchased used and just never got into service, so I took it apart on my spare time. A lot of the repair work we could do in-house, but the bed was worn in some spots. The shop had a regular maintenance guy, so I called him to see if this was something he could fix, and he recommended another guy who calibrated/adjusted granite surface plates, X-Y tables, and of course lathe beds. He came to the shop, looked at it and said he could hand-scrape it for about $1,500 and guaranteed his work. I said okay.  It took him four partial days of work!! I watched him from time to time, and found myself continuously less believing that this guy was hand-scraping the ways as flat and smooth as he was. Pure artistry, and a lot less expensive than what South Bend wanted (which was about $4,500 plus like 12 weeks lead time).


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## precisionworks (Jul 14, 2008)

Hand scraping ways is a dying art, more the pity. I've read & read about how to do it, but it is still intimidating. If you ever look at a new (or lightly used) Bridgeport, the hand scraped ways are as nice as can be. I imagine some of the employees have been there 50 years.


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## wquiles (Jul 15, 2008)

I must admit that buying an used lathe is tempting, but also scary given what you guys have posted here. Look at this small oldie Craftsman/Atlas for example: who knows how much work to get running great? What about buying parts for them?:
http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/tls/748544004.html


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## wquiles (Jul 15, 2008)

precisionworks said:


> Hand scraping ways is a dying art, more the pity. I've read & read about how to do it, but it is still intimidating. If you ever look at a new (or lightly used) Bridgeport, the hand scraped ways are as nice as can be. I imagine some of the employees have been there 50 years.



Is hand scraping similar to "lapping" the surface flat with some fine cutting compound?


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## precisionworks (Jul 15, 2008)

> who knows how much work to get running great? What about buying parts for them?:


The Craftsman/Atlas lathes are very basic, simple, rugged machines. They use flat ways, so it's sometimes hard to do super-fine finish work (single thousandths or half thousandths) that you need for bearing press fits. But they are inexpensive, tons of parts available on eBay & on the Atlas/Craftsman user groups, etc. Hard to go wrong with one for a first lathe, especially for just a few hundred bucks. 



> Is hand scraping similar to "lapping"


Hand scraping involves using either a human powered scraper (not many of those left), or an electric powered scraper like a Biax:






Using as long a reference flat as you have:







the surface to be scraped is first spotted in with Prussian Blue or Dykem Paste - the shiny surfaces are the high spots. Scrape these, respot, scrape again, respot, ad infinitum

Lapping is sometimes done after scraping, sometimes not. Lapping is a super fine abrasive process used to produce extraordinary surface finishes, down to 1u and below.


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## PEU (Jul 15, 2008)

how do you compensate for temperature on the flat gage? I mean if its too long its shape may deform, or the flat bridge shape is to avoid this?


Pablo


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## precisionworks (Jul 15, 2008)

Pablo,

The way a scraping flat is made is by have two other reference flats ... and they are supposed to stay that way under 'normal' shop conditions. I have a Starrett 48" straight edge, with edge straightness guaranteed to .0002" per foot, and parallelism of .0004" per foot. Starrett never mentions any need for temp compensation ... I would image most reference tools are stress relieved just prior to the final finish grind.



> the flat bridge shape is to avoid this?


That's my understanding. A "normal" straight edge (below) will not work.


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## wquiles (Jul 19, 2008)

Here is another oldie, although this one seems in better shape than the other one I poster earlier:
http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/tls/760856997.html

Still, I remain generally scared and weary about older lathes


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## gadget_lover (Jul 19, 2008)

wquiles said:


> Here is another oldie, although this one seems in better shape than the other one I poster earlier:
> http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/tls/760856997.html
> 
> Still, I remain generally scared and weary about older lathes



that one looks pretty nice.

When I find old lathes like that craftsman in My locale, they are generally a uniform brown, missing covers and handles, and advertised as having "Light surface rust, needs TLC". If they look good they are snapped up quick.


Daniel


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## KC2IXE (Jul 19, 2008)

12 years ago (or so), I found that exact model Craftsman lathe - with tooling - NO wear at all - $450!! Yes I bought it really fast. Seems about 20 years before that (or however many) the owners father boguht the lathe new. He has it for about 2-3 weeks when he had a heart attack and died, while standing at the lathe. It sat there, with the work in the chuck, for all those years, until the wife died, then it went up for sale...


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## AdamW (Jul 19, 2008)

KC2IXE said:


> 12 years ago (or so), I found that exact model Craftsman lathe - with tooling - NO wear at all - $450!! Yes I bought it really fast. Seems about 20 years before that (or however many) the owners father boguht the lathe new. He has it for about 2-3 weeks when he had a heart attack and died, while standing at the lathe. It sat there, with the work in the chuck, for all those years, until the wife died, then it went up for sale...



*booming movie voice* "The Lathe of Death!" *evil laughter*


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## gadget_lover (Jul 19, 2008)

gadget_lover said:


> An Emco Maximat V10P was on craigs list for $450. It is the 10 inch swing with a milling head centered above the bed that was about 4 foot long. It sounded like it had all the things I was hoping to find in a mid sized lathe.
> 
> $450 Delivered.



Only 6 days have passed and I see it is now back on Craigs list. Only now it's ten miles down the road and $1,100 without delivery. 

At $450 I would take a chance. At $1,100 I'd have to find an excuse to buy it.

Danel


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## precisionworks (Jul 19, 2008)

I'd crawl 11 miles to look at a decent lathe, especially one in the $1000 range

It's worth a look, especially if the machine can be run under power. If not, take a mag base & dial indicator to check headstock bearing play. Visual condition will tell half of what you need to know, running will tell the more important half.

A grand for a usable machine is still really cheap in today's market.


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## Mirage_Man (Jul 19, 2008)

Even a machine with some wear can produce nice results. I mean look at what I've been able to do with my Heavy 10. Granted I'm not gonna do ultra-precision work with it but it's certainly done an acceptable job for most of what I've done so far. In fact most people that have bought parts I've made are shocked at what I made them on. If I had the time, money and inclination to I could probably rebuild it to near new condition. But frankly I don't have the time. I'd much rather spend my time making stuff than rebuilding a machine. 

The reasons for which I'm getting the new machine are Power, Rigidity, Repeatability and oh yeah... Power. The more than doubling of the tail-stock, cross-slide and compound travel are another reason. Being able to fit a nice DRO can be added to the list too. Umm almost forgot... the foot-brake, instant reversing spindle, coolant system, wide speed range and the abillity to cut metric threads must be included .


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## wquiles (Jul 19, 2008)

precisionworks said:


> I'd crawl 11 miles to look at a decent lathe, especially one in the $1000 range
> 
> It's worth a look, especially if the machine can be run under power. If not, take a mag base & dial indicator to check headstock bearing play. Visual condition will tell half of what you need to know, running will tell the more important half.
> 
> A grand for a usable machine is still really cheap in today's market.



I can't argue with that, but I am not "sure" I would know enough to spot a problem or not. Lets put it another way so that I can learn more: what would be a list of the items/stuff that one would have to double check to make sure the machine was worth it? I see what you mean by the magnetic base and dial indicator - what to check, how, where, and what would be acceptable?


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## wquiles (Jul 19, 2008)

Here is a new one from today. I never heard about this brand before - is this a wood lathe by any chance?. Are these any good?. Looks it has been restored, but I hate that GOLD color!!!
http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/tls/761799100.html


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## Mirage_Man (Jul 19, 2008)

wquiles said:


> Here is a new one from today. I never heard about this brand before - is this a wood lathe by any chance?. Are these any good?. Looks it has been restored, but I hate that GOLD color!!!
> http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/tls/761799100.html



OMG! It looks like they just sprayed everything down with a rattle can.


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## wquiles (Jul 19, 2008)

Mirage_Man said:


> OMG! It looks like they just sprayed everything down with a rattle can.



Yep - calling it horrible does not do justice to the word "horrible" :sick2:

"Revolting" would be better? :naughty:


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## precisionworks (Jul 19, 2008)

> is this a wood lathe


It is a wood turning lathe, and was one of the nicest available at the time. The newer Powermatic 3520B will put the Model 90 to shame, and costs under $3k. I've seen nice Model 90s for around a grand.



> OMG! It looks like they just sprayed everything down with a rattle can.


Hard to believe that the factory still uses that color, but they do. Powermatics have been gold since Edison invented the light bulb



> what would be a list of the items/stuff that one would have to double check to make sure the machine was worth it?


General condition is first and foremost. Clean, no rust (or minimal discoloration), all covers/levers/handles/switches intact.

Uniformly easy movement of the compound from one end of bed to the other - shouldn't bind at any point.

Easy extension & retraction of the tailstock ram.

Ways (ideally) should look as if they were just ground. The area just in front of the headstock, about the first 12" of the bed, gets used the most. Turning a cylinder in this area is a good test - mike the cylinder at each end & in the middle after turning, all three readings should be close to identical. I've seen machines that are so worn that the end to end variance is .002/foot.

The chuck should spin smoothly under power, and make no noise if belt driven, some slight gear noise if gearhead. Irregular clunking could indicate bearings (or worn gears in a gearhead).

The motor should quickly accelerate the chuck to the selected speed, without hesitation. Electric motors should run dead quiet - noise is usually a bad bearing/bearings, which are inexpensive to replace.

Threading gears should have all their teeth.

South Bend has a test for their lathes bearings that involves chucking up a one foot bar. Rest an indicator tip at the far end, zero out, and lift the bar with strong force. IIRC, South Bend spec was no more than .002 movement at the end of the 1" test bar.

Compound motions should be smooth without binding or looseness.

A fresh coat of paint ("Krylon Rebuild) is often a sign that the seller is trying to hide something, especially if anything else is dirty or greasy.

Those are the high points. There are lots of nice, older machines available, if you look critically at them.


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## wquiles (Jul 20, 2008)

Here is a brand new one post, for a larger/heavier Monarch lathe:
http://dallas.craigslist.org/ndf/tls/761962748.html

Description from the seller:
************************************************************
This is a very heavy duty Monarch model A tool room metal working lathe equipped with the optional very long taper attachment. Monarch is renowned as the best USA lathe maker and this is a very well made machine. It has been converted over to use a 5 hp 220V single phase motor (mounted in the pedestal) and the controls are single phase as well so it can be run at home in your garage off of a single 30 Amp 220 VAC circuit - like for a clothes drier. It is about 8 ft long and about 3 ft front to back.

This lathe cuts or bores a very wide range of threads (even including tapered pipe threads) and has a very wide range of feeds. The taper attachment is the more desirable telescopic leadscrew type and has a long slide. The tailstock offsets for cutting or boring short tapers. It has power feed on both the long axis and the cross slide axis and it has settable automatic feed stops for the carriage. The headstock has a spindle clutch and brake with both headstock and saddle mounted control levers. Max spindle speed is a very usable 800 rpm. This lathe will take a very heavy cut in very tough materials.

I have both 3 and 4 jaw USA made chucks that mount on the spindle. The headstock is 5mt and the tailstock is 4mt. I have a 5mt shank that inserts in the head stock spindle and mounts a smaller 4 to 6 inch chuck for small work. I will include a tailstock center as well. I have other 8 to 10 inch chucks for sale that you could mount on this lathe with a back plate.

I have owned this lathe for 35 years now, using it for hobby work and it has served me well. I am moving out of state and I have several other lathes, so I am selling it now. It is in reasonably good working condition. It is powered and you can hear it run. I am not including tooling as I use that on my other lathes.

I think the lathe, the taper attachment, and the two 12 inch USA chucks are worth in the area of $2,000 - but I am open to offers. It is heavy but I have straps etc and will assist you in loading it on a low trailer.

It is located in Keller - about 15 miles west of DFW airport.

************************************************************

This is too big and heavy for the space I have in my garage. I don't know much about these older lathes, but a quick search seems to indicate this might be a great deal on a older but premium lathe.
What do you guys think?

Will


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## Mirage_Man (Jul 20, 2008)

wquiles said:


> What do you guys think?
> 
> Will



meh. Looks like another worn out once great machine.



wquiles said:


> Max spindle speed is a very usable 800 rpm



I may have it confused with the 10EE but that's pretty slow considering the stock top speed was like 4000 rpm.


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## modamag (Jul 20, 2008)

gadget if you're really interested in an emco, there's a guy in SJ (near JimH's house) who stock them.

I still love the oldies lathe. At least you know what you're getting.


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## gadget_lover (Jul 21, 2008)

It's not that I love that brand. I was intrigued by the value at that price. I'd love to clean out my garage and fill it with tool-room quality tools, or at least high end prototyping quality models.


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## precisionworks (Jul 21, 2008)

> Max spindle speed is a very usable 800 rpm.


You gotta wonder what he's smoking

Assume that you're turning a max diameter cylinder ... 16" Diameter = 50" Circumference = 4.2 Feet X 800rpm = 3360sfpm. About the right speed for an aluminum cylinder 16"D.

The problem is that most of us don't make lights with a 16" battery tube or head. Say that your batt tube is 1"D (3.14"C) ... at 800rpm, you have just 209 sfpm, and you really want 2000 sfpm in aluminum. In Ti, you'd be close to proper speed, though still on the slow side.

You see speeds like that when looking at machinery from WWII or before. Alloy steels hardly existed, carbide tooling was scarce, most shops used HSS blanks ground to the needed shape. I'm not trying to take anything away from the Monarch, especially if your shop needs to turn items mostly over a foot in diameter. But if your work is small, 800rpm will not be useful.


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## gadget_lover (Jul 24, 2008)

After watching for weeks of looking for a great price on a bigger lathe, another $450 beauty...

I came across used 6x28 vertical knee mill. Only 6 miles from me. For under $1000. In pretty good shape.

I can now tell you that 3 old men (50 + ) moving a 1000 pound machine is a sight to see. And laugh at. And pity. But we made it.

I can also tell you that the local (Sf Bay Area ) equipment movers only want $150 an hour to make that 6 mile trip. 4 hour minimum. I'll keep that in mind when I price the next lathe on Craigslist.

Daniel

P.S. taking off 3/8 inch, 2 inches deep in a single pass using a 3/4 inch endmill was reallly nice.


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## wquiles (Jul 24, 2008)

gadget_lover said:


> After watching for weeks of looking for a great price on a bigger lathe, another $450 beauty...
> 
> I came across used 6x28 vertical knee mill. Only 6 miles from me. For under $1000. In pretty good shape.
> 
> ...




Congrats on the "new-to-you" toy :twothumbs

Now, where are the pictures? !!!


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## PEU (Jul 24, 2008)

wquiles said:


> Congrats on the "new-to-you" toy :twothumbs
> 
> Now, where are the pictures? !!!



Congrats!








Pablo


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## gadget_lover (Jul 24, 2008)

Thanks Guys.

I guess a picture is appropriate. 

Allow me to introduce Mr Rong. More pictures after work.







Daniel


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## wquiles (Jul 24, 2008)

Excellent - now that you had it for a couple of days, did you already installed the DRO????????

-> just helping you spend MORE money


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## PEU (Jul 24, 2008)

that vise alone seems to cover the price of the whole machine 


Pablo


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## wquiles (Jul 24, 2008)

Here is another oldie - how are these in general?
10" Atlas Lathe:
http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/tls/767503777.html


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## KC2IXE (Jul 24, 2008)

speaking of DROs - I may be in the market soon for a DRO for my mill - a Burke Millrite. I may have to do a BUNCH of metric work, and of course it's an inch mill - any sugestions for a good, inexpensive DRO


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## gadget_lover (Jul 25, 2008)

wquiles said:


> Excellent - now that you had it for a couple of days, did you already installed the DRO????????
> 
> -> just helping you spend MORE money




I believe the term for folks like you is .... Evil.




Yes, I'm already looking at the various plans for mounting DROs on the poor thing. At the very least, the head has a spot just made for a digital scale. Little Machine Shop.com has a 3 input DRO (without the scales) for only $199. There are also several DROs on Ebay for various prices. 

Here's an experiment using a 12 inch caliper as a dro. It was on sale for less than a scale. It covers the whole range of the Z axis of my micromill. The tail of the depth probe is clamped to the table top.









Mr Rong, on the other hand, as several places just begging for a digital scale. The red rectangle on the head is where you typically find one. I figure I need to bolt it down and clean and adjust it before I start adding to it.






Daniel


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## HarryN (Jul 25, 2008)

Oh good = play time. :naughty:


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## Mirage_Man (Jul 25, 2008)

Good snag on the mill! I hope I can find something like that too when the time comes.


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## wquiles (Aug 3, 2008)

Here is another oldie for sale locally - this one from Brazil. Anyone know anything good/bad about these ones?

Post on local Craig's List for Dallas:
http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/tls/781097290.html


Ebay link to the same machine model (not the one for sale):
http://cgi.ebay.com/Edelstaal-PRM-12-1-2-engine-lathe-machine_W0QQitemZ180272112370QQcategoryZ104241QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWINQ3aPOST0Q3aRECOQ3aBINQQcmdZViewItem


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## wquiles (Aug 3, 2008)

Here is another SB:
http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/tls/781515723.html


I am "still" not ready to buy an used/old lathe again, but these recent machines keep the temptation level pretty high!

Will


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## gadget_lover (Aug 3, 2008)

Yeah, when they are that pretty it does make you think twice. Or more.

That Edistaal looks awfully interesting at that price, The $200 delivered is also worth considering in the final price.

Daniel.


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## wquiles (Aug 9, 2008)

Here is another interesting one - looks small for being a 10 incher, doesn't?
Atlas Lathe: http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/tls/789290875.html


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## wquiles (Aug 9, 2008)

And here is another Monarch for sale:
http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/tls/788474146.html

Looks good since they refinished it


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## gadget_lover (Aug 9, 2008)

wquiles said:


> Here is another interesting one - looks small for being a 10 incher, doesn't?
> Atlas Lathe: http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/tls/789290875.html




It's hard to tell if it's small. Figure the handwheels are 4 to 6 inches in diameter and look at it again. That headstock becomes fairly large.


Daniel


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## wquiles (Aug 14, 2008)

Another Monarch - but it looks "really" used!
http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/tls/797007233.html


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## wquiles (Aug 17, 2008)

I have not heard about this brand. Any good?
Warner Swasey Turrent Lathe
http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/tls/800503907.html


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## KC2IXE (Aug 18, 2008)

It's a turret lathe, which is a fairly specialized "production" machine. Not easy to setup, but once you do, it's easy to make 100s of the same part. I have a need for a small turret lathe, but....

Warner Swasey is THE turret lathe name brand

EDIT: I think you might find that the lathe in the ad is a TAD larger than you think


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## gadget_lover (Aug 18, 2008)

The turret mill is a neat idea. I need to find a video and write-up of how they are used and set-up.


Daniel


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## Mirage_Man (Aug 19, 2008)

Will,

While this link does not have info on the WS turret lathe it does have a ton of info on more machines than you can shake a stick at. Check it out.


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## precisionworks (Aug 19, 2008)

> Warner Swasey is THE turret lathe name brand


+1

Whenever you attend an auction & see a turret lathe, you can be sure it will say W&S. Here's some history from The Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambrose_Swasey

The photo below shows a 6-Spindle Automatic Bar Lathe:









The $2500 price for the W&S on Craigslist is amusing ...at auction, they often go as high as $250-$300, if the turret is not missing parts.



> I think you might find that the lathe in the ad is a TAD larger than you think


W&S did not make small or light weight tools


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## Mirage_Man (Aug 19, 2008)

precisionworks said:


> The $2500 price for the W&S on Craigslist is amusing ...



Most of the prices I see on Craigslist are amusing :laughing:.


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## wquiles (Aug 19, 2008)

precisionworks said:


> +1
> 
> Whenever you attend an auction & see a turret lathe, you can be sure it will say W&S. Here's some history from The Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambrose_Swasey
> 
> ...



Cool - thanks for the excellent background on these


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## wquiles (Oct 26, 2008)

$4200 for this???

http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/tls/889886679.html

Maybe I am just too new at this, but this does sound expensive to me


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## Mirage_Man (Oct 26, 2008)

wquiles said:


> $4200 for this???
> 
> http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/tls/889886679.html
> 
> Maybe I am just too new at this, but this does sound expensive to me



Yeah, I'd say. I just sold mine with a bunch of accessories for $2400.


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## precisionworks (Oct 26, 2008)

> $4200 for this???



Maybe there's two grand in cash sitting on top of the motor ... otherwise, he'll have that machine for a long, long time


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