# BXA tool holder for 1" shank tools ...



## wquiles (Nov 28, 2009)

I recently got a good deal on Ebay on a Dorian Knurling tool (cut style):
































But of course, the problem is that the shank is 1". Normally with less expensive tools, I would simply mill the bottom of the tool, but this Dorian knurler retails for about $900, so I decided cutting the tool would not be a good idea.
















I have a piece of 4140 steel that I bought to make a parting blade cutting block, so I decided to make a new tool holder for the Dorian knurler:











Here you can see two BXA holders to compare their relative sizes:






So to the bandsaw I went:






I cut the piece I needed for the Dorian holder, plus the pieces I needed for the cutting blade holder (to be done in a future post/project):
















Piece on the far left will be used for some future holder. Middle two are for the cutting blade holder, rightmost piece if for this project (Dorian 1" BXA holder):






I took some measurements on a BXA holder, to duplicate those on my new one:











I first started by making all sides flat/parallel using my 1.5" face mill cutter:











But I did not like the "split" finish (I had to do two overlapping passes), but the mill was not trammed:
















Of course, this project took a little deviation while I finished the VFD conversion (thanks again Barry!), so I started by tramming the mill:











I then aligned the vice using the fixed jaw as you guys recommended:






Once ready, I used my new 3" 45deg face mill to lightly re-cut the 4 sides (not the ends):






(by the way, this is why you NEED a NEMA 4 rated VFD!!!):






To my surprise, I did not get the twin-cuts typical of a mill that has been trammed. As you will see below, the mill "IS" trammed, but not with this cutter!:






Here I am using a 1" twin-insert cutter, and sure enough, you can see the double cuts indicating the mill is trammed. My guess something is not aligned quite right on the 3" face mill:






So I keep making 0.050" passes until I got to the desired depth:






I then took a 3/4" Cobalt 6 flute end mill to clean up the edges and bottom of the slot:
















With this end mill, you can again see that the mill is in fact trammed properly - weird:
















And of course, the Dorian tool holder fits:
















Here on a "standard" 5/8" BXA holder for comparison:
















So I then start making the dovetail, using my Dorian 3/4" dovetail cutter:






First I have to cut a slot to the right width, so I used again first my 1" two-insert end mill, and then clean up with the 3/4" cobalt end mill:











After each step, I cleaned up the edges with a file:






I am approaching cutting the dovetail very slowly: cut, test fit, cut, test fit, since I wanted a nice engagement. First cut was a tad small as I expected:






After a few more passes I had it all perfectly fitted:






The new mill with the VFD is a REAL JOY to use - hard to believe I waited this long to do the conversion. Now the mill is really easy to use!. Here I am drilling/tapping the holes for the tool holder set screws (3/8-16):






After using a file to clean the top (and bottom that faces the tool):






Another test fit:






As I expected, I had to cut a small relief on the bottom of the holder to allow enough travel to center the 1" Dorian tool, so here I am using my 1.5" end mill to take the 0.20" off:











Used a file to clean up the edges (no sharp corners anywhere!). By the way, I am using Brownells T-4 to "blue" the steel block - it looks really cool in person, almost like the case-hardened frame on a Ruger single action pistol:











Now it fits great:







And my first test of cutting knurling (just one pass, really light), on a 0.5" Al round stock before I went to bed last night:






I need to make another one of these 1" holders, but I think I will wait a little while - this was a LOT of work, but it turned out quite nice :twothumbs

Will


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## precisionworks (Nov 28, 2009)

Wow, that is a lot of work, but the end result is awesome. No manufacturer makes a BXA block to hold a 1" shank tool, except W Quiles Mfg 



> I did not get the twin-cuts typical of a mill that has been trammed. As you will see below, the mill "IS" trammed, but not with this cutter!


When you checked the head for tram, was the indicator swung 360 degrees, so that left to right tram could be checked, as well as front to back tram? I believe you did this already, so both left to right & front to back should be within .001" TIR.



> My guess something is not aligned quite right on the 3" face mill


To check that, rest the face milling cutter with inserts (gently) on your granite surface plate & try to rock the cutter. With that many inserts it probably will not rock, so next try to get a .001" shim or feeler gage under each insert. My guess is that one insert is projecting farther than the others, which is not uncommon on a multi insert tool - but does need to be corrected or that one insert will do 90% of the cutting.


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## wquiles (Nov 28, 2009)

Thanks Barry, although I don't think I will be trying to make these to sell - I would never charge enough to recover my time - here is a case in which a CNC machine would be nice to have :naughty:

As to tramming, yes, I checked all around. This picture in the groove shows cutting along the X axis, from left to right:






this picture shows the cutting along the y axis, front to back:






Both photos show nice, overlapping strokes from the 1" and the 3/4" milling bits, so I know the mill is trammed. However, something with the 3" is not right/aligned. I like your idea to check for the individual inserts, but I also wonder if perhaps this could be caused by the arbor and the shell not being perfectly aligned/parallel?

Will


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## StrikerDown (Nov 28, 2009)

I'm NOT an expert in geometry but even when the tram is very close the spindle is still not a perfect 90 deg to the path of the table. Since the angle is not a perfect 90 at some point the farther away from the center line of the spindle the cutters will stop touching metal on one side of the circle.

Beautiful job and an excellent solution to the problem!


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## gadget_lover (Nov 28, 2009)

I'd be willing to bet that the tram is not as good as it seems. The resaoning behind that statement becomes obvious when you think about the difference between the 3 inch mill and the 1 inch mill. The 3 inch has a wider sweep.

The 3 inch mill will exagerate any tram errors 3 times as much as a 1 inch mill. My math skills are not what what they should be, but I think that a .0006 deviation at 3 inches will be only .0002 at 1 inch. That might be less than the deflection of the tool and the work. Maybe that is why the smaller diameter end mill has the 'double cut'

I've found that I can get a real neat multipass overlapped finish using small end mills simply because that 'resets' the deviation every 1/2 inch.

BTW, good work on that tool holder. It looks quite profesional.

Daniel


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## wquiles (Nov 28, 2009)

StrikerDown said:


> I'm NOT an expert in geometry but even when the tram is very close the spindle is still not a perfect 90 deg to the path of the table. Since the angle is not a perfect 90 at some point the farther away from the center line of the spindle the cutters will stop touching metal on one side of the circle.
> 
> Beautiful job and an excellent solution to the problem!






gadget_lover said:


> I'd be willing to bet that the tram is not as good as it seems. The resaoning behind that statement becomes obvious when you think about the difference between the 3 inch mill and the 1 inch mill. The 3 inch has a wider sweep.
> 
> The 3 inch mill will exagerate any tram errors 3 times as much as a 1 inch mill. My math skills are not what what they should be, but I think that a .0006 deviation at 3 inches will be only .0002 at 1 inch. That might be less than the deflection of the tool and the work. Maybe that is why the smaller diameter end mill has the 'double cut'
> 
> ...



Thank you guys 


And by the way, I think that what you guys are saying does makes sense - the diameter difference might be exposing a less than perfect tram situation. That would explain why the 3" does not cut as well as the 1" and 3/4" mills. I guess I will have another go at it and see if I can get even closer results. Thanks :thumbsup:


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## StrikerDown (Nov 28, 2009)

I was chasing the tram on my RF 31 but it is an elusive beast. I can adjust the tram then raise the head to make a cut and the tram is off!

It's sometimes hard to accept less than perfection but I don't want to go crazy... at least not for a little while!

You got the job done, it looks great and if it works half as good as it looks it's a success!

Wish those were available!


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## darkzero (Nov 28, 2009)

Man you make it look so "easy" but of course it must have been a load of work! Not to mention the thousands of dollars spent on equipment & tooling for you to be able to even make that. How long did it actually take? Very nice work indeed! :thumbsup:

We need to see some awesome knurling now!


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## bluwolf (Nov 28, 2009)

Beautiful piece of work Will. I'm curious how long it took you to make it also. And how much time does it take you to document it with all the terrific photography?

Mike


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## precisionworks (Nov 28, 2009)

> I'd be willing to bet that the tram is not as good as it seems.


+1

Your photo shows the Indicol almost vertical, which means that the dial test indicator sweeps a small circle. A better way to read deviation is to lower the spindle closer to the table & extend the Indicol horizontally as far as it will reach - about 6" on both left & right. If you are really OCD, use an extension rod and go out 12" left & right. You'll be surprised at how far out the head is.

I believe that nod on that mill is adjusted with shimming.


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## unterhausen (Nov 28, 2009)

StrikerDown said:


> You got the job done, it looks great and if it works half as good as it looks it's a success!
> 
> Wish those were available!


Yeah, it's frustrating that you can't buy a larger tool holder. Go into just about any shop and you'll find a batch of butchered holders.


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## darkzero (Nov 28, 2009)

unterhausen said:


> Yeah, it's frustrating that you can't buy a larger tool holder. Go into just about any shop and you'll find a batch of butchered holders.


 
Well Dorian, Aloris, & DTM do make oversized holders, 5/8" for AXA, & 3/4" for BXA but they're around $75+ ea. Milling a BXA oversized holder probably wouldn't end up being as beefy as Will's is. 

Judging by the sizes that Dorian makes these knurlers in, do cut knurlers require even more force than the conventional forming knurling tools?


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## wquiles (Nov 28, 2009)

Barry - I will do the tramming further out next time - thanks.


Guys, I honestly did not keep a log of hours spent - needless to say it was a LONG time over several days, trying to balance hobby/family. I do wish there was a way to buy these already made, as this 1" holder will accept any of the 3/4" shank tools as well - and there is plenty of 3/4" and 1" shank lathe tools cheap on Ebay.


How well does the Dorian cut knurler works? I am just trying to get familiar with it, but it looks very promising so far. As I need a knurled wheel for adjusting height in this holder, I decided that will be the first real use, even if it does sound like a catch-22.

I took a 3/4" dia Al stock, and cleaned the outside surface:






Did one pass with the knurler, at about .006" or so - feed it like if I was threading at 20TPI:






Drill:






Tap:






Cut bevel on each side:






and part both off-sections:






It is not "pretty", and the knurler was not "exactly" on center, but it works well:






Clean up cut-off edge:






Clean up threads:






Installed in place:


























Will


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## PhotonFanatic (Nov 28, 2009)

Will,

You are being way too timid with the infeed--you need to jam the knurling tool into the piece so that a complete knurl is being formed, i.e., with real sharp points, then traverse along the axis of the piece.

In AL, even if things go awry, the worse thing that might happen is some slight twisting to the knurling pattern.

That's a gorgeous tool holder--I'm jealous. 

And to answer darkzero's question: No, cut knurling does not require more force (pressure) than conventional form knurlers. In fact, they are less stressful to the lathe's spindle--it is cutting the material, not deforming it.


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## darkzero (Nov 28, 2009)

Thanks Fred.

Will, is that the pattern the knurl is supposed to look like (looks odd)? Also how fast was the spindle speed? Hurry up & practice, I want to see what that thing can really do!    

The coarse knurl on my hammer handle was done at 0.025" infeed & 0.030" carriage feed at about 60 rpm on a conventional knurler (this is also what my book references too. Funny my book shows an example of a cut knurler & it shows your same Dorian knurler). Playing around 0.015 - 0.020" gave a better looking knurl in my opinion using the old cheap knurlers they had. I tried to do that on my 8x14 & lets just say I'll never try that again, thought I was going to break something. :laughing:



These are the only two types of knurling that looked half decent that I have been able to do with the 8x14 but using the cheap tool that came with the TP set. But I cheated, I took a pass over the knurl. As I was told, the quality of the wheel is very important.


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## precisionworks (Nov 28, 2009)

> You are being way too timid with the infeed--you need to jam the knurling tool into the piece so that a complete knurl is being formed


+1

Quite a bit of info on the web, here's one:

http://www.accu-trak.com/holders_cuttype.html


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## darkzero (Nov 28, 2009)

On Will's knurler, what does the adjuster on top adjust? Centering the wheels to the workpiece?


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## wquiles (Nov 28, 2009)

PhotonFanatic said:


> You are being way too timid with the infeed--you need to jam the knurling tool into the piece so that a complete knurl is being formed, i.e., with real sharp points, then traverse along the axis of the piece.


Thanks Fred. I will try tomorrow with another test piece and do a much deeper cut. Do you support the material being knurled with the tailstock while you do knurling?





darkzero said:


> Will, is that the pattern the knurl is supposed to look like (looks odd)? Also how fast was the spindle speed? Hurry up & practice, I want to see what that thing can really do!


The wheels that come with the knurler are for a diamond pattern (if I recall correctly). It should look odd since I don't quite yet know what I am doing, but I hope to eventually get better at it.

Spindle speed was 60 RPM, same I do for threading. I have not tried using the power feed, so I just used the same threading power feed I used for the Mag 1xD's at 20TPI.



darkzero said:


> The coarse knurl on my hammer handle was done at 0.025" infeed & 0.030" carriage feed at about 60 rpm on a conventional knurler. Playing around 0.015 - 0.020" gave a better looking knurl in my opinion using the old cheap knurlers they had. I tried to do that on my 8x14 & lets just say I'll never try that again, thought I was going to break something. :laughing:


Ahh - that is quite a bit deeper cutting than I tried!. No wonder it was shallow cutting at .006". Did you do a single pass at .025" infeed? All of that at once? Didn't the piece deflect under that much pressure, or was it supported by the tailstock?


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## wquiles (Nov 28, 2009)

darkzero said:


> On Will's knurler, what does the adjuster on top adjust? Centering the wheels to the workpiece?



Yup, it allows fine-tunning the wheels to the workpiece.


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## StrikerDown (Nov 28, 2009)

I think I would be just a bit timid the first time using a tool costing almost a grand! Even if I bought it off of ebay for less:sweat:


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## darkzero (Nov 28, 2009)

wquiles said:


> Ahh - that is quite a bit deeper cutting than I tried!. No wonder it was shallow cutting at .006". Did you do a single pass at .025" infeed? All of that at once? Didn't the piece deflect under that much pressure, or was it supported by the tailstock?


 
Yes I did it in a single pass. The handle was turned between centers so it was supported by the tail stock. With the conventional knurler, started the lathe, I positioned the wheels at the end of the work piece so that only half of the wheels would engage with the work piece, then fed 0.025" in & power fed (but it can be fed by hand too with good results). When I came to the end I stopped the lathe to inspect the knurl. 

I did not disengage the knurling tool in case I wanted to make another pass. I felt I did not need to but the instructor said it's perfectly fine to do another pass going back in the other direction as long as the knurler is never disengaged. Not sure how this would apply to the angled cut knurler.

I also learned when knurling, when you come to the end of the pass, if you let the knurler rest in one position with the lathe still spinning you tend to get a different patter or deep knurl as the tool "rests" just like what I experienced when milling the C lamp if I let the end mill rest for too long in one of the corners.

I can scan the small section on knurling from my book. It's not a whole lot but I'm sure it will help get started. I will email it to you.


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## PhotonFanatic (Nov 28, 2009)

This is what you should be able to produce, with one pass:







Although it is possible to do multiple passes along the axis of the piece, too. You just do not withdraw the cutter from the work when you reverse the feed.

But, it is really best to make a completely cut knurl before you traverse the piece. If you use plenty of lube, it really doesn't put any stress on the tool itself.

It is best to use the tailstock to support the piece, even with cut knurling. It also helps to verify that your piece has no taper to it, or you will forever have problems. :devil:


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## wquiles (Nov 29, 2009)

Fred,

I obviously need lots of practice, but I think I am starting to head in the right direction. I tried some more tonight, varying the infeed and the power feed, and got these just now, at power feed of 0.012" and infeed of 0.025" and 0.020" - I was feeding it way too fast before!:

















Here is a closeup/macro of the left wheel on the second photo above. Still not very "crisp" on the top of the pyramids/diamonds, and there is still some "waviness" to the knurl:






Will


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## darkzero (Nov 29, 2009)

Another thing I learned was to use lots of lube when knurling aluminum. This will help keep the wheels from "clogging" giving a nicer knurl. We were also taught to apply the lube from the back side of the work piece when using a brush so you don't slip & get the brush caught into the wheels. Although we were warned I still saw it happen! The dude started cussing at the machine & kept blaming the machine! :laughing:

Looks like you will be pro before the weekend is over! Hopefully I can follow in the next years or so.


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## cmacclel (Nov 29, 2009)

Also cut knurlers are made to run fast! A 1" diameter rod should be at around 1000 rpm.

Mac


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## wquiles (Nov 30, 2009)

In the Dorian instructions it also said to use "relatively" fast RPMs's, but since I am starting I went slow - literally


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## cmacclel (Dec 14, 2009)

Ok Will now make me one 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170417326162&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT


Mac


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## StrikerDown (Dec 14, 2009)

$113.5 ???

Somebody call da cops!

:thumbsup:


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## wquiles (Dec 14, 2009)

cmacclel said:


> Ok Will now make me one
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170417326162&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT


My friend, if I only had the time ... 

I have been turning down custom jobs left and right, and my waiting list is already 2-3 months long, and not getting any shorter :shakehead





StrikerDown said:


> $113.5 ???
> 
> Somebody call da cops!
> 
> :thumbsup:


No kidding - that was a good deal indeed


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## cmacclel (Dec 14, 2009)

wquiles said:


> My friend, if I only had the time ...
> 
> I have been turning down custom jobs left and right, and my waiting list is already 2-3 months long, and not getting any shorter :shakehead
> 
> ...





Well send the Custom Jobs to me and then you can make my holder 


I guess I'll just have it send to Barry with his nice surface grinder 

Mac


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## wquiles (Dec 14, 2009)

cmacclel said:


> Well send the Custom Jobs to me and then you can make my holder
> 
> 
> I guess I'll just have it send to Barry with his nice surface grinder
> ...



Ha! Good try 

I am already sending work your way, and Brian's way, and LED Zeppelin's way, and Will's way (the other Will!), and I still have projects half-way done that need finalising 

But I like that idea of Barry's surface grinder. I recently got an used DTM Wedge tool post on Ebay really cheap, but it was cheap because it was missing the wedges!. I have been slowly restoring it to "life" after Michael sold me the new parts to re-built it, but the wedges are hardened, and so is the tool post body - so I spent like 2-3 hours filling/fitting the wedges by hand to the block with a diamond file, and I am not done yet. Having access to the surface grinder would have made this job much easier/faster. 

One thing is for sure: because I am fitting the oversized parts and removing all of the rough machining spots in the tool post block, this should be tighter and smoother than any mass produced wedge tool post - right now the wedges move freely up/down in the block but with zero lateral movement 

Here are a few teaser photos - I will do a full post when I am done:




















Will


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## precisionworks (Dec 14, 2009)

> I like that idea of Barry's surface grinder.



The machine tool trilogy is, and has been for many years, the lathe, mill & surface grinder. None of the three need to be the biggest, best, or newest ... but you'll miss a lot of opportunities if you don't have all three.


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## unterhausen (Dec 14, 2009)

someone at work tried to give me a surface grinder one time. Then he decided he wanted me to pay for a rigger to get it out of the building, and then he asked the department if he could do it and they started having committee meetings about it and the whole thing fell through. Sure would be nice though.

Will, I guess you aren't going to show us the wedges until later?


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## wquiles (Dec 14, 2009)

precisionworks said:


> The machine tool trilogy is, and has been for many years, the lathe, mill & surface grinder. None of the three need to be the biggest, best, or newest ... but you'll miss a lot of opportunities if you don't have all three.


I know, I know - one of these days ... 




unterhausen said:


> Will, I guess you aren't going to show us the wedges until later?


Nope. Not until I am done getting everything together


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## StrikerDown (Dec 14, 2009)

http://cgi.ebay.com/1996-ACER-6-x-1...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item53de975f3b


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## unterhausen (Dec 14, 2009)

StrikerDown said:


> http://cgi.ebay.com/1996-ACER-6-x-1...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item53de975f3b



from when I've watched Reliable Tool's auctions in the past, they always get top dollar. Wrong coast for me anyway.


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## darkzero (Dec 14, 2009)

wquiles said:


> But I like that idea of Barry's surface grinder. I recently got an used DTM Wedge tool post on Ebay really cheap, but it was cheap because it was missing the wedges!. I have been slowly restoring it to "life" after Michael sold me the new parts to re-built it, but the wedges are hardened, and so is the tool post body - so I spent like 2-3 hours filling/fitting the wedges by hand to the block with a diamond file, and I am not done yet. Having access to the surface grinder would have made this job much easier/faster.
> 
> One thing is for sure: because I am fitting the oversized parts and removing all of the rough machining spots in the tool post block, this should be tighter and smoother than any mass produced wedge tool post - right now the wedges move freely up/down in the block but with zero lateral movement
> 
> Will



Ahh so you ended up getting that. I had thought about it too. At $35 & knowing the parts were available from Michael what a steal! But why do you have to "modify to fit" the replacement wedges? I'm sure you will love it when finished with it, the 65 feels rock solid so I'm sure the 75 will fell just the same. I like the use of guides for the wedges.


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## darkzero (Dec 14, 2009)

wquiles said:


> Having access to the surface grinder would have made this job much easier/faster.


 Forgive me if my comments are off. I can't view the pics right now with the limited access I currently have.

Don't think a surface grinder wouldn't make this job faster if you're filing to remove excess material to fit them. When we use the surface grinder it's to get a very nice finish on the part with only minimal amounts of material removed. It's pretty time consuming doing it manually turning the wheels back and forth. I guess it would be easier on the hands though when using a file.


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## precisionworks (Dec 15, 2009)

> a surface grinder wouldn't make this job faster if you're filing to remove excess material to fit them.


I'm not sure, without the photos, but it sounds like the file is the only tool available in Will's shop. Files are nice when taking off the last tenth or two, and I often use one when the amount to be removed is under .001" - like the shaft diameter for a bearing press fit. 



> It's pretty time consuming doing it manually turning the wheels back and forth.


It isn't bad if the width of the wheel is greater than that of the part, which is probably the case here. Lower the spinning wheel until there is just contact (to zero the down feed dial), crank in a few thousandths & rotate right, crank in a few more & rotate left, etc. It doesn't take much time to grind off .050" on a small part like a wedge, and the top & bottom surfaces remain dead parallel. Filing that same amount off might take quite a while :naughty:


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## wquiles (Dec 15, 2009)

darkzero said:


> But why do you have to "modify to fit" the replacement wedges?


Because they were milled and then hardened, and the thickness was not even across the part. It is almost as if they knew they would had to do a "little" fitting afterwards. In my case, the body of the tool post must have been on the "narrow" side of things, since there was no way to get even part of the wedge to slide in, let alone the whole wedge.

Since the tool post of course also has machining marks, and since the slit where the wedges fit was not "exactly" parallel either, I took the opportunity to do the fitting in both parts - wedges and tool post. This will give me even smoother surfaces for those parts to slide against each other.




darkzero said:


> Don't think a surface grinder wouldn't make this job faster if you're filing to remove excess material to fit them. When we use the surface grinder it's to get a very nice finish on the part with only minimal amounts of material removed. It's pretty time consuming doing it manually turning the wheels back and forth. I guess it would be easier on the hands though when using a file.


I would have loved to make the wedges "exactly" flat to start with using a surface grinder, since when I check them lengthwise with my micrometer I found then not to be the same thickness across the part.




precisionworks said:


> I'm not sure, without the photos, but it sounds like the file is the only tool available in Will's shop. Files are nice when taking off the last tenth or two, and I often use one when the amount to be removed is under .001" - like the shaft diameter for a bearing press fit.


I have a nice small "collection" of quality files in various "grits" (smooth, second cut, *******, etc.), but none of them can bite into these wedges - they are that hard. Only my coarse diamond file was able to bite into the wedges, so yes, it has been very slow to remove metal and get them to fit 



precisionworks said:


> It doesn't take much time to grind off .050" on a small part like a wedge, and the top & bottom surfaces remain dead parallel. Filing that same amount off might take quite a while :naughty:


To be fair to Michael, he did say that I needed access to a surface grinder to do the job properly. I am just stubborn and wanted to try it out anyway without it, so I am "paying" it with sweat and tears (well, mostly sweat!).

And I still have lot more fitting to do as fitting the wedges to the tool post is only half of the battle. The wedge guides will also need minor fitting, and those appear to also be hardened parts. Then the wedges are also slightly wider (where they contact the tool holders) and don't have the relief cuts needed to allow a tool holder to slide down, so I am sure I will be using my diamond file quite a bit more. 

Michael was nice enough to actually disassemble his own BXA tool post, and take detailed pictures of his already ground/fitted wedges against my just-hardened new wedges, and you can clearly see everywhere the wedges were fitted - mind you that the wedges were supposed to enter the tool post "as is". In fact these new wedges fit his tool post perfectly, which is why I said earlier than my tool post must have been originally machined in the small side of things. When he tried my new wedges in his tool post, the tool holders would not slide down in position (even with fully open), so I don't know yet how much work I have ahead of me to get this finished. 

As I was telling Michael by email, I am actually enjoying the very slow process of fitting the wedges, and because they are so darn hard, there is very little chance of damaging anything since I can only take a minute amount of metal on each "session" - the tool post is not as hard, so it has been easy to smooth the machining marks on it. There is something special about having parts fitted by hand - part of what makes machining so fun and challenging at the same time :thumbsup:


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## precisionworks (Dec 15, 2009)

I worked with a European-trained machinist - German was his native language, profanity was his second language, and English was a rarely used third language 

At that time, Euro machinists went through a long apprenticeship program. For the final "test", the apprentice was given a micrometer, a file, and a cube of steel that was slightly over 26 mm in all three thickness measurements. To pass this final exam, the apprentice had to file all faces so that each was parallel to the opposing face, and the cube measured 25.4 mm on all three sides.

Did not have to be exact, just within 0.1 mm :nana:


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## precisionworks (Dec 15, 2009)

> I know, I know - one of these days ...  (re: getting a surface grinder)



For the most part, a lathe costs quite a bit & the mill costs quite a bit ... and that's before tooling is even considered :sigh:

On the other hand, a used surface grinder is *cheap* by comparison & "tooling" consists of a few abrasive wheels of different grit or composition. Even a small 6x12" machine (the size I have) will do ton of work & can often be found for just a few hundred dollars ... about what you paid for your 6" Kurt 

Stepping up to a 8x18 or 12x24 sometimes costs no more, but the machines take up more real estate. A 6x12 will almost hide in a corner of the shop, uses not much more power than a coffee pot, but will quickly pay for itself for reconditioning used tools & tooling. Most anything bought on eBay (fixed parallels, adjustable parallels, vises, vise jaws, straight edges, etc.) has had a trip through the SG. With the correct fixture, it can sharpen a push broach or a HSS end mill.

Pretty useful & not expensive.


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## wquiles (Dec 15, 2009)

precisionworks said:


> To pass this final exam, the apprentice had to file all faces so that each was parallel to the opposing face, and the cube measured 25.4 mm on all three sides.
> 
> Did not have to be exact, just within 0.1 mm :nana:


I have read about this same type of test being required for a gunsmith type job, although the example I heard was in inches - 1.0" all around.




precisionworks said:


> For the most part, a lathe costs quite a bit & the mill costs quite a bit ... and that's before tooling is even considered :sigh:
> 
> On the other hand, a used surface grinder is *cheap* by comparison & "tooling" consists of a few abrasive wheels of different grit or composition. Even a small 6x12" machine (the size I have) will do ton of work & can often be found for just a few hundred dollars ... about what you paid for your 6" Kurt
> 
> ...


Size/space and dust worry me, but I could perhaps "make" some room for it - remember that everything I have fits inside a single car garage, so it is very crowded as is. 

What worries me even more about these cheap machines is that I would not know if it is a cheap piece of junk not worth moving into my small garage, vs. something a little dirty that still has some life left on it. I am not ready for that type of risk yet - I would need to research this a lot more before I would even try to get one - perhaps one of these days. For now, I still need to find time for other "really" important projects like installing the 3-axis DRO on my mill, and the 5HP VFD on my lathe, let alone pending projects for customers


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## precisionworks (Dec 15, 2009)

If I lived in Dallas, this would be one to look at:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Nice-DOALL-DH-6...7QQcmdZViewItemQQssPageNameZRSS:B:SRCH:US:102

From the photos, the condition is very nice. The fine line electro mag chuck is worth over $500, and the control allows the user to vary the holding force to suit the part. Add a VFD & fire it up


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## cmacclel (Dec 15, 2009)

There's a bunch near me...............


HMM

http://cgi.ebay.com/Brown-Sharpe-Au...emQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4cec9b9230






precisionworks said:


> If I lived in Dallas, this would be one to look at:
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Nice-DOALL-DH-6...7QQcmdZViewItemQQssPageNameZRSS:B:SRCH:US:102
> 
> From the photos, the condition is very nice. The fine line electro mag chuck is worth over $500, and the control allows the user to vary the holding force to suit the part. Add a VFD & fire it up


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## 65535 (Dec 15, 2009)

wquiles said:


> I have read about this same type of test being required for a gunsmith type job, although the example I heard was in inches - 1.0" all around.





*1 inch = 25.4 millimeters *


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## wquiles (Dec 15, 2009)

65535 said:


> *1 inch = 25.4 millimeters *



Of course, that was the point I was trying to make - that it was the same exact test, but being here in the states, the measuring was done in inches


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## wquiles (Dec 15, 2009)

cmacclel said:


> There's a bunch near me...............
> 
> 
> HMM
> ...



That is great, and you probably already have the space for it


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## unterhausen (Dec 15, 2009)

precisionworks said:


> For the final "test", the apprentice was given a micrometer, a file, and a cube of steel that was slightly over 26 mm in all three thickness measurements. To pass this final exam, the apprentice had to file all faces so that each was parallel to the opposing face, and the cube measured 25.4 mm on all three sides.


My boss keeps telling me the story that in India, that test was required of engineering students. Except for they gave them a micrometer, a sledge and a cold chisel. Or maybe my memory is fading.


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## precisionworks (Dec 15, 2009)

> that in India, that test was required of engineering students. Except for they gave them a micrometer, a sledge and a cold chisel.



ROFLMAO!!!!!


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## gadget_lover (Dec 15, 2009)

OK, Now I know I'm slipping.

My first thought was that you could do it.




A chisel can remove stock, a sledge can shape it and pressure weld it back together.


Then I realized it was a joke.






Daniel


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## cmacclel (Dec 15, 2009)

wquiles said:


> That is great, and you probably already have the space for it


 

Space Ha Ha ya if I lived in Texas like you, or Florida like Brian. I live in New England and today it was 45f tomorrow and for the next week is supposed to be in the low 30's. I'm currently scrambing on buying a 8' x 10' storage shelter so that I can heat my CNC mill for the winter (in my garage).

Mac


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## darkzero (Dec 15, 2009)

gadget_lover said:


> OK, Now I know I'm slipping.
> 
> My first thought was that you could do it.
> 
> ...


 
What do you mean? If my instructor gave me that I would have tried.  

I don't think it was originally a joke & Barry made it into one. :laughing:




cmacclel said:


> I live in New England and today it was 45f tomorrow and for the next week is supposed to be in the low 30's. I'm currently scrambing on buying a 8' x 10' storage shelter so that I can heat my CNC mill for the winter (in my garage).
> 
> Mac


 
Oh man, & here I am in Californina looking at one of those small Stanley utility heaters (to match my little Stanley blower fan for the summer) cause I don't want to be in the garage when it's in the low 60's.


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## precisionworks (Dec 16, 2009)

> I don't want to be in the garage when it's in the low 60's



The South Bend followed me home on a Sunday morning, and half a dozen neighbors got it out of the pickup truck & placed it at the back corner of our two car garage ... in Central Iowa ... in the winter. Temps there are cooler & the garage had no heat, so thermal underwear, pants, shirt, Carhartt insulated bibs, goose down parka, etc., were the order of the day. 

Tooling costs were low, as the machine ran little at 20 degrees F :shakehead


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## cmacclel (Dec 16, 2009)

precisionworks said:


> The South Bend followed me home on a Sunday morning, and half a dozen neighbors got it out of the pickup truck & placed it at the back corner of our two car garage ... in Central Iowa ... in the winter. Temps there are cooler & the garage had no heat, so thermal underwear, pants, shirt, Carhartt insulated bibs, goose down parka, etc., were the order of the day.
> 
> Tooling costs were low, as the machine ran little at 20 degrees F :shakehead


 

If I had a regular machine I would just oil it down but my problem is that it's a CNC 




Dec 16



Partly Cloudy*15°*0 %Thu 
Dec 17



Partly Cloudy*20°/12°*0 %Fri 
Dec 18



Sunny*29°/18°*0 %Sat 
Dec 19



Partly Cloudy*33°/22°*0 %Sun 
Dec 20



Partly Cloudy*32°/22°*10 %Mon 
Dec 21



Partly Cloudy*34°/25°*10 %Tue 
Dec 22



Partly Cloudy*34°/24°*10 %Wed 
Dec 23



Partly Cloudy*36°/26°*20 %Thu 
Dec 24



Few Snow Showers*37°/27°*30 %Fri 
Dec 25



Snow Shower*37°/25°*


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## unterhausen (Dec 16, 2009)

gadget_lover said:


> OK, Now I know I'm slipping.
> 
> My first thought was that you could do it.
> 
> ...


I asked one of the Indian grad students about this test. It really isn't a joke. Apparently in the more recent classes, they get to use a few more tools, including a file. But the hammer and the cold chisel were involved. He didn't really remember the test that well -- he remembers having to make a nut. I'm going to ask around some more.


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## precisionworks (Dec 22, 2009)

A nice little Delta (like mine) for $250 in Chicago:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320463989039

There appears to be a mag chuck on the table ... which is easily worth $150 by itself.


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## KC2IXE (Dec 22, 2009)

precisionworks said:


> A nice little Delta (like mine) for $250 in Chicago:
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320463989039
> 
> There appears to be a mag chuck on the table ... which is easily worth $150 by itself.



Geez - around here (NYC area) the cheapest I've been able to find is around $900. A few years back I was offered one FREE, but I would have had to rent a truck, take the day off from work, etc, and we were in a crunch time, and could NOT get the day off (I had 24 hours to get it)


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## GMLRS (Feb 19, 2010)

Never liked to use that type, They are OK on a large CNC machine. Clamping type are the only ones to use on a manual machine, takes the strain off of machine and parts. They were always hit or miss, usually miss.


Example of clamping type,

http://www.msdiscount.com/columnar....q=f&aqi=&oq=&compidcookieset&sessioncookieset


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## precisionworks (Feb 19, 2010)

> Clamping type are the only ones to use on a manual machine


Really 

Cut knurling is the predominant method used in most developed countries - except the USA. Because the tool is shearing metal, the forces are similar to turning or boring, exactly the operations that a lathe is made to do. Cut knurling tools will come down in price as more shops start to use them & more makers offer them, but right now they sell at a price premium.

Straddle knurling tools, like the Eagle Rock, are a big step up from bump knurling, but still use metal displacement to form the pattern. While they do a decent job, the cut knurl always produces a more sharply defined pattern.


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## precisionworks (Feb 19, 2010)

Good information on all the knurling processes in the Accu Trak catalog (5 MB pdf file)

http://www.accu-trak.com/Catalog/CAT-08/att_cat-08.pdf


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## KC2IXE (Feb 19, 2010)

GMLRS said:


> Never liked to use that type, They are OK on a large CNC machine. Clamping type are the only ones to use on a manual machine, takes the strain off of machine and parts. They were always hit or miss, usually miss.
> 
> 
> ...snip...



A Cut Knurling tool is a TOTALLY different tool than a "bump" knurling tool - MUCH less forces involved - for all intents, it cuts a multi start thread at the pitch of the knurl

BTW, Home Shop Machinist magazine just started a multipart series on how to make a cut knurling tool


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## GMLRS (Feb 19, 2010)

If you are making tools, or flashlights, knurling is a must have tool, sending it out to be C.N.C. cut would also be nice if you could get a good price. I cant really do everything myself. A small import clamp type knurling tool is under 70$, 

A milling machine with an indexing head, could really make some nice paterns.


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## wquiles (Mar 21, 2010)

So I am using my 1" custom holder to hold a new tool (I guess it is time to start planning making another 1" holder  ). It is a size 4 Top Notch groove holder which has a 1" shank. It uses these inserts:







Here is the tool:
















The aim is to basically replace the one in the bottom (Size 3 Top Notch), at least for now, while I experiment with this new grooving tip:






The old one is the one I have been using for body/head grooving, as shown here:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/244239


If you note, the new grooving bit is a true rounded tip, vs. the old one (bottom) which is only partially round:
















I will report later how the new round tip does


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