# Internal Face Grooving Tool



## Tekno_Cowboy (Sep 9, 2009)

I'm looking for a fairly inexpensive internal face grooving tool, with a 5/8 or smaller shank. Anyone know where I can find one? I've been browsing MSC and Enco for a week with pretty much no luck, aside from a $400+ tool that's too big for my toolholders.


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## darkzero (Sep 9, 2009)

nm then


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## Mirage_Man (Sep 9, 2009)

Check Kaiser Tool (Thinbit). They may have what you're after.


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## Tekno_Cowboy (Sep 10, 2009)

Thanks Mirage_Man, What I'm basically looking for is a smaller version of this.

Got any ideas where I might find one?


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## darkzero (Sep 10, 2009)

Oh...


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## Energie (Sep 10, 2009)

Perhaps with a homemade tool:

Round HSS steel, 10 mm:


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## Tekno_Cowboy (Sep 10, 2009)

I suppose I could use a homemade tool, but I prefer indexable, and I'm not quite ready to give up on that yet.

I ordered the 1/2" version of the 2-in-1 tool you linked me to. It should get the job done for some internal facing.


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## darkzero (Sep 11, 2009)

Tekno_Cowboy said:


> I ordered the 1/2" version of the 2-in-1 tool you linked me to. It should get the job done for some internal facing.


 
I was always curious about that one, please let us know how well it works. I was just looking at it & I wonder where replacement inserts can be purchased from?


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## Rothrandir (Sep 11, 2009)

I've got one of these and am plenty satisfied with it. Definitely spring for carbide shank on a tool like this if you can...


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## Tekno_Cowboy (Sep 11, 2009)

The problem I saw with that tool is that it wouldn't get deep enough for mag heatsinks. I'm thinking a solid carbide tool might be my best bet for the mag sinks. I just need to find someplace that can grind one for me.


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## wquiles (Sep 11, 2009)

Last time I needed one I "made" one out of a hex key. It was slow, and there was chatter, but it worked well:


























Will


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## Tekno_Cowboy (Sep 11, 2009)

I tried that, but the china-made hex key I used just wasn't up to par for cutting Al.


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## 65535 (Sep 11, 2009)

Might be able to use a drill bit if you grind off some of the right areas. Just go slow to not anneal it.


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## precisionworks (Sep 11, 2009)

> use a drill bit


If you start with slightly oversized W-1 round stock, which grinds easily, you can make one in ten minutes. Add another minute or two to heat red & quench & the tool is done. Small diameter W-1, in 36" lengths, is cheap even from McMaster


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## Tekno_Cowboy (Sep 11, 2009)

I'll have to give that a try, but my biggest problem is that I only have a dremel for grinding. I've kept my tooling to carbide to avoid getting a grinder.


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## wquiles (Sep 11, 2009)

Tekno_Cowboy said:


> ... to avoid getting a grinder.


Like the Borg said "RESISTANCE IS FUTILE!" :devil:


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## darkzero (Sep 11, 2009)

Tekno_Cowboy said:


> I'll have to give that a try, but my biggest problem is that I only have a dremel for grinding. I've kept my tooling to carbide to avoid getting a grinder.


 
Well here's your excuse to buy one. "You can never have too many tools"! When I was looking to buy a bench grinder, with my bad habit, I wanted to get the best & overkill for my needs. I just ended up getting a 6" Craftsman for $50 on sale. It's served me well over the years & never had a problem with it. 

You can pick one up from Harbor Freight for $35-$40. You'd probably spend more than that on your next indexable cutter. We had a cheap one at the shop that we used & abused everyday for years so I'm sure anyone you pick up will last you a very long time. You can even find some nice used ones on Craigslist or Recycler for dirt cheap.

Besides it feels great grinding a tool that works knowing that you made it yourself. The first bits that I made out of some water hardned drill rod looked great, worked for what I needed, & didn't last too long ohgeez but it was fun & a good learning experience.

I couldn't find anything small enough to bore the business end so I had to make a bit to use. (Please don't ask what it is, no it wasn't for me, if it's unappropiate I will remove it. )

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d105/zero_four/CPF/Misc/Img_1422.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d105/zero_four/CPF/Misc/Img_1429.jpg


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## precisionworks (Sep 11, 2009)

> I just ended up getting a 6" Craftsman for $50 on sale.


+1

$50-$60 will buy a decent grinder. I have a Ryobi 8" bench grinder, Model BGH827, sold at Home Depot for $65. Toss the 8" rocks that come with the grinder & buy decent quality 6" rocks in medium grit and in fine grit. Camel (cgwheels.com) is a good brand that doesn't cost a lot.

I also have a Jet 8" bench grinder, Model JBG-8A, that was $60 on eBay. It is much nicer than the Ryobi, more heavily built, but again you have to toss the 8" rocks & replace with a pair of 6". If you leave the 8" wheels on either the Ryobi or the Jet, it takes half a day for the motor to get up to speed, but the 6" wheels go to full speed in an instant. There's a JBG-8A on eBay right now, Item #400072407676.


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## darkzero (Sep 11, 2009)

precisionworks said:


> ...buy decent quality 6" rocks in medium grit and in fine grit. Camel (cgwheels.com) is a good brand that doesn't cost a lot.


 
I've never been happy with the wheels that came on my grinder. Never thought there were brands "to get". Any particular ones you recommend & where can I purchase them? Any recommendations on some flap wheels?

Thanks


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## precisionworks (Sep 11, 2009)

The gold standard in toolroom wheels in the Norton 32A. Almost as good, and the one I used to buy, is the 38A. About $40 per wheel in 6" diameter, 1" wide 

A few years ago I ran across Camel Premium wheels (not the regular grey ones). Made in Israel, very high quality, low priced. Both the white and the pink wheels work well, and the blue is worth looking at. About $15 per wheel from Discount Tools:

http://www.discount-tools.com/catalogs/gen/340.pdf

IMO, the Camel Premium wheels last as long & grind as well as the 38A Norton. Whichever wheel you buy, be sure to get a diamond dresser to keep the face flat and clean. About $15 on eBay & at most suppliers:

http://cgi.ebay.com/rle-GRINDING-WH...ONOMICAL!_W0QQitemZ390087118189QQcmdZViewItem


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## TranquillityBase (Sep 12, 2009)

darkzero said:


> I've never been happy with the wheels that came on my grinder. Never thought there were brands "to get". Any particular ones you recommend & where can I purchase them? Any recommendations on some flap wheels?
> 
> Thanks


 
I think you'll be happy *using up* the 'stock' grinding wheel for most task, the key is to balance the wheel, and dress it with a _diamond tip_, as PW has referenced.

I bought a large grinder/buffer from HF, and the stone didn't even have the blotter paper caution:just a bare stone mounted to the arbor). Not very safe, after an hour of fiddling, the stone ran true, balanced, and safe.


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## precisionworks (Sep 12, 2009)

IMO, the problem with the grey aluminum oxide wheels that come with every grinder - even Baldors - is that the wheel is so hard that it does not allow the grinding process to wear away the surface & expose fresh abrasive grains. The grey wheels are awfully bad about glazing over, at which point they stop cutting completely. A diamond dresser will cut through the glaze, but you still have a too hard wheel to work with. Norton calls this wheel a 57A. It is cheap, which is why it is the standard wheel on almost every bench grinder, but it is bad about burning heat sensitive steels. The bond is called VBE 

The premium wheels work well because of the friable bond used to hold the abrasive grains together. The Norton 38A has the most friable bond (softest wheel) which gives maximum coolness of cut on heat-sensitive tool steels - but it does wear quickly. The 32A is a slightly harder wheel that holds form better between dressings. The Camel premium wheels seem to be equal to the 32A in performance. Norton calls this bond a VBEP, and the P designates a porous bond that breaks down to keep sharp grains at the wheel surface. You will love using any bench grinder with these premium wheels :twothumbs


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## KC2IXE (Sep 12, 2009)

I don't know - I have a 38a and a 32a mounted on my main grinder - both 8" rocks, but a name brand grinder (don't ask right now, don't want to go look) - I LIKE 7" or 8" rocks


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## precisionworks (Sep 12, 2009)

> I LIKE 7" or 8" rocks


I do too, on a machine that has the hp & torque to spin the wheels. The problem with a lot of Asian grinders is that the motor & bearings are suitable for 6" wheels, but the manufacturer figures that 8" wheels will sell more machines. Look at the weight as well - my Ryobi 8" weighs 41#, while my 7" Baldor 7307 weighs 70#. The Baldor spins up a pair of 7" wheels in a heartbeat, because it was designed for this size rock - and the motor never slows under heavy grinding load. The Ryobi claims the same hp as the Baldor, but acts like it has half as much.

In fairness, the Baldor costs 8x more


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## darkzero (Sep 12, 2009)

Scott, you're exactly right, that's one of things I noticed & hate about my stock wheels. They don't seem to be too bad but they are noticeable. I've heard of grinding wheel dressers but never actualy thought to go & buy one. Didn't know about the diamond ones that Barry linked. I'm thinking of the ones with the steel cutting wheels. Another reason why I want to change them is one of them seems way too coarse for my needs. IIRC I think I have 36 grit & 60 grit. Got to go buy me a dresser now.

Barry, I could relate. One of mine did get clogged up but that's cause I was grinding aluminum.  Do the higher quality ones clog easily too with aluminum? I know I really should be using carbide burrs when working with aluminum but sometimes I get too lazy to pull them out.

Looking at those Camel wheels, I was looking at the white ones. Now I'm thinking about getting the blue ones for all purpose? I was looking at 60 & 120 grits but maybe 120 might be too fine? Your thoughts?

Thanks


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## gadget_lover (Sep 12, 2009)

For "grinding" aluminum I use a belt sander. They seem to last quite a while between belt changes. The sander is nothing special... just a 1 inch wide belt with a medium grit.

Watch out for the heat buildup. It can get really bad really fast.

Daniel


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## darkzero (Sep 12, 2009)

gadget_lover said:


> For "grinding" aluminum I use a belt sander. They seem to last quite a while between belt changes. The sander is nothing special... just a 1 inch wide belt with a medium grit.
> 
> Watch out for the heat buildup. It can get really bad really fast.
> 
> Daniel


 
What are your thoughts on a Craftsman belt/disc sander combo? HF had a sale on one for $50 a few weeks ago, I went to check it out but it was cheasy & didn't even look like it was worth the sale price. I was looking at a Craftsman one for just over $100. Or should I just save a bit more & get a Delta?


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## gadget_lover (Sep 12, 2009)

I have the Delta with a 5 inch disk and 1 inch belt, 1/4 HP (yeah, right) motor.

It works well enough.

As long as the tables are sturdy and the belt tracks, a casual user will probably get away with a pretty crappy one.  I have not adjusted mine in the last 3 or 4 years. I bought it in 2003 to make some flashlight parts.

Daniel


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## precisionworks (Sep 12, 2009)

> Do the higher quality ones clog easily too with aluminum?


Vitrified wheels are designed only for ferrous metal grinding. The best wheel I've ever used for aluminum grinding is the Rex Cut Sigma Green for aluminum, part #730008, which mounts on a 4 1/2" angle grinder. $4.36 each from Silver Bullet Tools (Lone Ranger, maybe, but they ship fast and charge very little for shipping).

http://www.silverbullettools.com/product_info.asp?prod_id=208037

These are 46 grit & eat aluminum like warm butter.



> For "grinding" aluminum I use a belt sander.


+1

Either a belt or a disc around 40 grit works well. 3M Scotchbrite nonwoven belts also do a nice job. If you have the funds, either Burr King or KMG are excellent belt grinders. If cash is tight, you can build a KMG clone for not much money and about 40 hours shop time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xodbg1fF9sQ

Of all the power tools in my shop, the Burr King is run more than anything else. Once you get a high powered belt grinder, you'll wonder how you ever lived without one.







The Ryobi grinder is in the left rear of the photo, 7" Baldor grinder is left front, and Burr King 482 on the right front. That photo was taken a few years ago, when the Burr King still had the 1 hp fixed speed motor. It now has a 3 hp motor with VFD control :thumbsup:


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## Bruceter (Sep 13, 2009)

Guys,

Please DO NOT! grind aluminum on a vitrified aluminum oxide wheel.
They can load up and become unbalanced. In some cases, the materal that loads up on the face of the wheel can fly off, in extreme cases the wheel can come apart.
I have seen the aftermath of a wheel coming apart on a machine and it was not pretty.
A few moments taken to get the proper tool could save you from serious injury.

In some of the machine shops that I visit, grinding aluminum on a regular wheel will get you written up very quickly.

Here is a link to Norton's safety sheet on grinding non-ferrous materials:

http://www.ind.nortonabrasives.com/...0000001035/Safety - Bench Grinding Wheels.pdf

You can use silicon carbide wheels for non-ferrous materials, but if you have access to a belt or disc sander, I think that those are better choices.

Bruceter


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## Tekno_Cowboy (Sep 14, 2009)

darkzero said:


> I was always curious about that one, please let us know how well it works. I was just looking at it & I wonder where replacement inserts can be purchased from?



My first impression is that it probably won't do what I want it to do. I have a feeling I'll be using more for internal threading than for internal facing. The biggest problem is the same I have with most tools: the bottom of the insert hits the sidewall. 

Since it can be used for left or right hand internal threading, I'm going to try using it for internal threading in reverse, away from the chuck. I should be able to prevent a few accidental run-ins that way. :thumbsup:


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## brickbat (Sep 14, 2009)

precisionworks said:


> If you start with slightly oversized W-1 round stock, which grinds easily, you can make one in ten minutes. Add another minute or two to heat red & quench & the tool is done. Small diameter W-1, in 36" lengths, is cheap even from McMaster



I gotta start put by admitting how little I know about machining. I bought my first lathe a year ago, and although I have progressed to Lathe #2, I'm still a noob.

But, this is the second reference here I've seen talking about grinding W1 stock to make tools and I want to get to the bottom of this...

My understanding was that the main use of W1 stock was in making parts that need to be machined (like in a mill) first, and then hardened. And these parts better not need to stay hard if they get heated in use. 

But if you were going to end up making the tool by grinding anyway, you'd be better off to use M2 or other High Speed alloy. This is because in its hardened state, a tool made from W1 (or O1) will soften pretty easily (at low temperatures) and lose hardness during the cut. According to Machinery's Hdbk, W1, W2, and W5 get a letter 'E' grade (poor) for hot hardness. M2 OTOH gets a letter 'B' grade.

Blank M2 bits are easy to come by, pretty easy to grind, and cheap. But, I should note it's sold already hardened, so forget about machining it - it needs to be ground.

I bring this up, because I've had pretty good luck so far with my hand ground M2 tooling. But again, I have very limited experience in this - and I'm just going based on that, as well as what I've read in Machinery's


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## gadget_lover (Sep 14, 2009)

I think the key is defining "Hot Hardness". ** One reference says hot hardness becomes important at temperatures above 600 degrees F. 

If you are making tools for gentle use they are not likely to reach high temps. Light use would be things like grooving tools used in aluminum. Another example is special taps for short runs.

For production work, M2 would be a better choice.

I could, of course, be wrong.

Daniel




** http://books.google.com/books?id=x1...num=4#v=onepage&q=define hot hardness&f=false


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## precisionworks (Sep 15, 2009)

> hot hardness becomes important at temperatures above 600 degrees F


+1

One important thing to look at when making a tool is how hot will the cutting tip be in use. For turning, facing and boring in mild steel and aluminum, temps are only low to moderate. You can judge temperature by looking at the curl as it comes off the cutting tip - no color means just warm, tan color is warmer, blue is hot, and red is very hot. W1 tools, after hardening, do fine as long as you don't run the tool at speeds that produce blue or red chips. Air cooling or mist cooling allow W1 to run a decent speeds.

Deep hole drilling is another subject, as much of the heat of machining stays in the hole - W1 does poorly in that use.



> M2 bits are easy to come by, pretty easy to grind, and cheap.


They are certainly a good option if the M2 stock is near net size. If much needs to be removed to shape the tool, it can take a long time, and because it's already hardened it grinds slowly. 

W1 is attractive because it comes is a wide variety of sizes, doesn't cost much, grinds like butter, & hardens really easily.


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## darkzero (Sep 20, 2009)

Tekno_Cowboy said:


> The problem I saw with that tool is that it wouldn't get deep enough for mag heatsinks. I'm thinking a solid carbide tool might be my best bet for the mag sinks. I just need to find someplace that can grind one for me.


 
I was at HF today & saw these Mini M2 Tool Bits. They are pretty small, the smallest one looks to be about the size of the tool Will made in his picture above. For less than $4 they're worth trying out & have plenty of room for resharpening/regrinding. Comes with a parting blade tool.


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## Data (Sep 21, 2009)

TC, is this what you are looking for?

Sandvik

That is an indexable tool. The holder has one set screw and it positions very accurately.


Cheers
Dave


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## Tekno_Cowboy (Sep 21, 2009)

I'm not sure if that's it or not. Is the insert curved or straight?


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## Data (Sep 21, 2009)

It is curved to cut a small radius. I use it in an ID of .400 but I do not remember its limit. They have various sizes.


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## Tekno_Cowboy (Sep 21, 2009)

That sounds like just the thing then. Thanks!


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## cmacclel (Sep 22, 2009)

Data said:


> TC, is this what you are looking for?
> 
> Sandvik
> 
> ...



I was eying that tool on saturday  i would like to pick one up myself but I bet the setup is some $$$.

Mac


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## Data (Sep 22, 2009)

cmacclel said:


> I was eying that tool on saturday  i would like to pick one up myself but I bet the setup is some $$$.
> 
> Mac



Mac, I should have taken it out to show you how is positions. I get nearly perfect repeatability with it. The holder is so simple, it is bored to the dia of the insert and it has a small shaft running through it's side. The insert just comes down and touches the shaft. So its translation and rotation are perfectly set.

I do not remember the price of the holder, but I think the inserts are ~$60. Get the catalog from Sandvik first then call DGI Supply for more info.

Cheers
Dave


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