# Arc AAA Premium vs. Fenix L0P



## liquidsix (Jan 14, 2006)

Does anyone know how the arc AAA-P stacks up against the Fenix L0P? I've read some other threads where people seem to love their Fenix L1P over their arc, but that's a AA flashlight, and a bit too clunky for keychains IMO. All I know so far is that the runtime on the Fenix L0P doesn't hold a candle to the Arc's 10 hour run time, and that the Fenix's max output is 30 lumens, and Arc-P's min ouput is 5.5 lumens. That doesn't really tell me much considering Arc-P's moon mode. Does anyone know it's max lumens? I think that might give me a better idea of what to go for.


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## liquidsix (Jan 14, 2006)

Okay, I'm replying to my own post here. Here's another question about the output of the Arc-P: Where the webiste says "minimum output", does that mean the worst Arc-P's are rated at a 5.5 lumen output on a fresh cell? Or is it what I originally thought, where they are rated at 5.5 lumens in moon mode?


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## paulr (Jan 14, 2006)

The L0p is considerably larger than an Arc AAA, has much less runtime, has slightly inferior (but not terrible) build quality if the L1p is representative, but is quite a bit brighter than the Arc, should have much more neutral color, and should have a nicer beam because of the reflector. Yes, 5.5 lumen minimum means an AAA premium v4 has guaranteed 5.5 lumens or better output on a fresh battery, probably more like 7 lumens. L0p output should be in the 16 lumen range, again based on L1p measurements. (Fenix, like some other manufacturers but unlike Arc and Surefire, does its lumen specs at the LED die rather than measuring what actually comes out of the flashlight after all internal losses).

My feeling is the lights serve distinct purposes. The Arc AAA is a long-running EDC bright enough for most close range uses and which carries ok on a keychain. The Fenix L1p is a pocket light that's quite powerful for its size (by mass market standards) and which can illuminate over fairly long distances and which works well on the ubiqitous and powerful AA NiMH cells. The L0p is a cross between the two, combining both the advantages and the disadvantages of both. I'm fond of my L1p and my two Arc AAA's but I don't plan to order an L0p right away. I think the L0p is a little too large and too special-purpose to carry on a keychain, and if I'm going to drop a light in my pocket, I don't mind the L1p's size.


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## BentHeadTX (Jan 14, 2006)

liquid,
It is hard to make a comparison because the L0P has not shipped but ships on Monday the 15th. There is enough information out there to make a guess that should be close. 
The rated runtime of the L0P is 1.6 hours with 1 hour at peak brightness. Lets assume that peak brightness is 1 hour until 50% is reach with the remaining 40 minutes running very dim. The Arc AAA will run at least 5 hours to 50% and many hours in moon mode so the L0P draws 5 times the power. Looking at the 5.5 lumen rating for the AAA-P and 30 lumens for the L0P, it would make sense. Fenix tends to be rather...ummm, optomistic with their L1P lumen ratings so I would say the L0P does not put out 30 lumens. 
Comparing the "HA-III" of the L0P to the HA-III of the Arc AAA-P is very easy, the L0P and L1P use the same stuff and is meerly a shadow of the awesome Arc HA-III anodizing. No comparison there! The Arc is also smaller in length and diameter. 
I have a Fenix L1P and an Arc AA and they are two different lights although they run on the same battery. The runtime of the Arc AA makes it the emergency light of choice, bright enough to see and runtime of 12+ hours. The L1P is a different animal all together, more of a decently bright Luxeon light that runs on a single AA cell. Think of an old school Arc LS with the rare single AA tail, smaller head, weak HA-III, a clickie and poor regulation. 
Two different classes of lights makes comparisons difficult. Now the Fenix L0P will be going against the Peak Ocean AAA in a few weeks, that comparison is more accurate as they have a Luxeon in common.


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## xochi (Jan 14, 2006)

First, let me say that I'm biased against Arc for alot of reasons, chief among them is that I believe the Arc is, at this time, way overpriced *but* before considering this a complete arc slam I'd like to say that I think that the arc will be a better light to have on a keychain. I Think that for general edc use the longer output but lower output of the arc will result in a tool that provides the amount of light needed when needed for as long as it's needed. If you want a light to make nerdy technophiles go " oooohhhh, that's bright and tiny and I want one" go for the fenix but I'm pretty certain that relying on the fenix will also be accompanied by more moments of dissapointment at not having light.

Granted, I'm only talking about the new Nichia CS model, I don't think the older units put out enough light and if I could get a nichia CS based AAA light from somewhere else , I would.


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## Solstice (Jan 14, 2006)

I think some valid points have been made here, but I wonder where people are getting the idea that the L0P will be so much larger than the Arc. Here the measurements from on the manufacturers sites: Length- Arc 2.7", L0P 2.87"; Diameter- Arc .5", L0P .55". I realize that for a keychain such differences may be noticable, but the L0p is still far smaller than a Dorcy and likely the Peak offering.

On another note, what I really think would make the L0P shine is a well-implemented 2 stage switch. The superior beam quality/tint of the luxeon on low would make a great light that could be used for either reading or for mid-distance on high. If an underdriven luxeon could get comprable lumen/watts as the Nichia CS, even a single stage underdriven version would be desireable.


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## Lebkuecher (Jan 14, 2006)

I think you will get a lot of different opinions to your question but I also generally agree with what has already been stated regarding preferring run time with a keychain light. The older Arc were great but I had to carry a turquoise model because I wasn’t very comfortable with the light output of the old AAA-p. With the new Arc that is a none issue because the light produces more then enough light for what you would normally use a keychain light for. That being the case then what is left to be considered?

For me the main considerations are runtime, size, cosmetics, warranty, price, quality of manufacturing and quality of the beam. 

I personally put runtime at the top of the list because you never know what type of situation you might find yourself in and I view a keychain light as an emergency light as well as having a light handy when I need it. Arc wins this hands down.

Second for me is size because I hate walking around with something that is to large in my pocket and I do carry around a lot of keys. 

Third is quality of manufacturing because I’m tough on products and I want something that will last, look good but most importantly be reliable. I’m not sure what to expect form the Fenix L0P in this area yet.

Forth is beam quality, for me anyway the Arc is fine and I don’t have a problem with the slight blue tint. If I were painting pictures and absolute color identification was a major issue then I would move this up in importance but I don’t. I also like having a flood beam on a keychain light because it gives you better situational awareness. 

Fifth on my list is price, both lights are reasonably price so it’s a none issue.

Sixth is cosmetics and I prefer the Arc but overall not a big factor when comparing the two.

Seventh would be warranty and I would lean more towards Arc but I’m not sure what the long term plans for warranting the Fenix L0P are.

With all that being said I will probable buy a Fenix L0P or a Peak after seeing some reviews because I like lights but long term I don’t see it replacing my AAA on my keychain and if I could only have one then it would be a Arc.


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## JohnK (Jan 14, 2006)

I don't see short runtime being an issue in the "survival" situation.

I assume the run-time plot will mimic the L1P, so you are going to have a lonngggg "tail", at a brightness level at least equal to an Arc.

And until then, you have BRIGHT !

I certainly don't have a run-time problem with my L1P, although run on a lithium. I still am amazed at this light. Can't wait to get the L0P, and maybe even the Peak Ocean.

AAA batteries are cheap, even lithiums used with a $ 50 light doesn't seem to me to be excessive spending.


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## BentHeadTX (Jan 15, 2006)

We will all find out by the end of the week as the L0P starts to ship. As JohnK states, the L0P will have a looooong tail of output. I ran a 2300mAH NiMH in my L1P and after 9 hours it was still producing usable light. 

The light I am looking at is the Peak Ocean AAA, it will be smaller in diameter than the L0P but the head will be slightly larger. It will be slightly longer but shorter than my Matterhorn 3 Snow29 with removable tailring. 90 minutes to 50% with the Ocean and by looking at the chart...a looooong tail that will kindly remind you to change the battery. 90 minutes is the minimum that I consider for any type of EDC light so the L0P is not in my plans. My plan is to use it with a NiMH AAA cell for more stable (flatter) output and recharge it every month. NiMH cells are cheaper than lithium AAA cells so it is a no-brainer. The thing I have noticed when using NiMH cells, I use the flashlight much more often and for longer periods of time. Better make the battery swap every week or two when I charge my other lights batteries. Now to read some reviews on the Eneloop AAA so I can have the self-discharge goodness of an alkaline but the current and stable voltage output of NiMH. The Sanyo Eneloop when coupled with the new AAA Luxeon lights should be a marriage made in heaven for keychain EDC.


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## paulr (Jan 15, 2006)

Another L0p issue is the lanyard hole is like the L1p's or Arc AA's, stand up tail, but lopsided if you hang it on your key ring with a split ring or mini-clip. I dunno if this will matter in practice.

Someone on the L0p thread photoshopped a pic of an L0p next to an Arc AAA, supposedly to scale, and the size difference was really noticible.


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## powernoodle (Jan 15, 2006)

Another consideration is aethestics. For some reason, Arcs seem to activate some neurons in the pleasure center of my brain. Its caused me to buy way too many of them (including another litfuse-modded LS yesterday). 

I've ordered a L0P, but will be sticking with the Arc v4AAA on my keychain. Plenty of light, lots of runtime, built like a tank. And that neuron thing.

best regards


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## GhostReaction (Jan 15, 2006)

The brighter would be the fenix and most likely to have a bigger wow factor. The shorter runtime might not be such a big issue since it uses common AAA cell.
However, I ll give two thumbs up for ARC help service and not quite sure if Fenix could top that.


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## Flying Turtle (Jan 16, 2006)

To me part of the beauty of my old Arc AAA is that it "disappears" in my front pocket. I really can't feel it there. If the Fenix or the Ocean are much larger or heavier I'm afraid I'll notice it like my brass Matterhorn. I consider all to be too large for the keychain, for me, since that goes in my back pocket and gets sat upon. This will not likely stop me from buying one, though.

Geoff


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## Pathlight (Jan 16, 2006)

Hi everyone, My opinions are almost identical to Lebkuecher, post #7. I also
think Arc aaa is overpriced but it's endearing or.. to me. I have an older non
premiem one (hope to update led to cs soon). Have LIP for 2 weeks now and
love it also. Has 2 level switch. I really prefeer 2 or more levels on most lights;
also really like lithiums and nimh's. Arc aaa is pretty much largest fl. I would
carry on my key ring. Usually carry Photon Freedom on them. 

I like lights with a long run time or moon mode, because you never know when
you might be stuck in a serious situation, maybe away from home, for hours or days and really need a light. I always take 2 or more fl. on a trip. One reason I like 2+ levels is, most of time I use low level/s, but sometimes need
level for distance or clarity or maybe partial self defence (mostly animals, I 
love to backpack/camp). 

Although a flashaholic I value fls. as tools. Different tools for diff. jobs. If you
have 1 or 2 small to very small lights you're not carring much weight or size
and can still carry 1 or 2 larger fls. also. I think a light with a bright over-
drive , or burst, level for a short limited time can be very useful. Usually don't
talk/write much, so thanks for letting me share my opinions. Gordon


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## 4sevens (Jan 16, 2006)

The L0P is NOT considerably bigger than an Arc AAA.
Here's proof 













Here are the rest of the nice macro shots of the L0P HERE


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## greenLED (Jan 16, 2006)

powernoodle said:


> Another consideration is aethestics. For some reason, Arcs seem to activate some neurons in the pleasure center of my brain.



Ditto. There's something about the Arc designs that make me drool. Same goes for the Night-Ops and Mags, but that's OT.

Anyway, I think you're trying to compare two different lights. As others have pointed out, the intended purpose of the Arc is different from the L0P (aside from being "keychain lights"). Consider which one would serve your purpose better, and get that one. Me? I'll stick with my ArcAAA, thank-you-very-much (since I already EDC a separate Lux-based light)!


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## tsask (Jan 16, 2006)

So is the anticipated "Ocean" brighter than the LoP Fenix? I would say it is. yet what good is all that power if it always on the horizon? I have been waiting, for several reasons ,on my LoP Purchase, now that I have found an extra clip waiting for the "Ocean" is starting to make no sense. looks like I'm going to get another Fenix. I have yet to own a PEAK, I would like to step up to the plate with the "Ocean" but when? when?? when??? when???? when??????


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## IsaacHayes (Jan 16, 2006)

4sevens: I take it your Arc is not a Rev4 Premium? I'd like to see how it compares to the new Rev4. I upgraded my Arc to the same LED as the new premium (Nichia CS).


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## GhostReaction (Jan 16, 2006)

I m with IsaacHayes on the comparison with a ARC Rev4 Premium. The older ARC is too much dimmer to even make it fair to compare.


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## Finbar (Jan 16, 2006)

4sevens said:


> The L0P is NOT considerably bigger than an Arc AAA.
> Here's proof
> 
> 
> ...




Comparing a Nichia to a Luxeon clone...used car salesmen tactics.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0081698/

Why compare the junk to a product that ARC no longer manufactures? The only reason can be to over-hype the junk.

Why not just compare the junk to an ARC WAX CANDLE? I am sure the hype would meet expectations then.

The seller of junk starting a thread under the Reviews forum...writes his own review...? I think this is called, "Conflict of interest." Not to mention - clinical over-hyping of an inferior...light.

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is...a used car salesman!

I hope all the neewbs can gain the gift of sight...once the problems start compounding. Your HA(is it even?) is flaking off - what's the customer service like from halfway around the globe?

Junkix light? I do not own one. I do not buy cheap junky lights.

IMHO, you get what you pay for. Pay for quality, get quality. Pay for crap...you get Junkix!

Thanks Peter, for designing a light that we can be proud of showing to others...without embarassment.

Fin


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## JasonC8301 (Jan 16, 2006)

Finbar. Junk? You have got to be BS. It isn't top notch but is is not junk. 

Nice closed minded sight you have there. I am sure you haven't even handled a Fenix light before and you are out right bashing it. I own an Arc AAA LE, have handled Arc LS lights, own numerous Surefire lights, and lots of other lights. Does quality fall short? yes but am I spending over $100 on a light? No. At under $50 utilizing a LuxI along with running off common cells, it makes good gift lights. The threads aren't the best, the HA can be improved, but it is a nice light. 

How much brighter can the Nichia CS be over the old Arc? Not much, maybe 2 lumens? I have an Arc AAA LE and its not a terrible light but given the power going into the 5mm LED, it WILL get dim over use (lux at 1M = ~12.) Mine is not as white as it used to be. 

So if you drive a Hyundai, Kia, or any other budget sub $12K new car you are driving crap?


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## nightshade (Jan 16, 2006)

Please, let it go. It's just two flashlights...


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## Robocop (Jan 16, 2006)

Oh come on guys...I am a huge ARC fan as well as Peak and I own several of each brand. While still a fan this new Fenix is something we have all been screaming for at least several years.....I remember many years past of people wanting a mass produced AAA luxeon and no one was listening. Well here it is and first to the table is Fenix.

Can the bashers simply let this light do well on its own merits rather than looking for each little detail to bash it ? Who cares what ARC it is compared to as I also would like to compare it to an ARC AAA luxeon but you know what...they do not make one and neither does anyone else right now.

I say if you do not like it then dont buy it as this leaves more for the ones who would like a few. I have yet to figure out why there is always some negative to some people when it comes to a new maker and a new light. Lets just enjoy this new company and their products. I hope others will listen and give some competition also however if not then I still will buy what they have as I am a rare breed of flashaholic who actually enjoys many makers and styles...regardless of origin.

Sorry if this was off topic however I simply get confused as to how anyone could bash a product they have not yet held in their hands. I also find it hard to believe that Fenix brought us all the wonderful L1P and has not yet earned the respect of some people among us. If nothing else they have earned the right to be judged on their light and not the loyalty to any certain maker.

I will defend my favorites to anyone who will ask however I will also give credit to any innovative light maker simply as I like lights and especially new lights that seem to be a decent value. At least let the ones who want to enjoy their purchases and we will surely see more lights from Fenix.


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## JasonC8301 (Jan 16, 2006)

nightshade said:


> Please, let it go. It's just two flashlights...



I would let it go if the 'bashing' was called for. In this case it is not. Ruins the civilized forum atmosphere by these trolls.


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## IsaacHayes (Jan 16, 2006)

Hey I still love my arc and the finish is still holding up. Will the Fenix, maybe not, but that's ok. It's a luxeon light made from the factory for AAA. It's better than a solitare with a luxeon etc, as it's more durable etc. It's made for the luxeon from the ground up.

I would sure like it if it looked like my arc with the same finish etc. But that's not going to stop me from getting one if I want a luxeon on my keychain! Like I said, the people that wanted a luxeon on their keychain used to have to do with modded solitares. The fact that it wasn't built in an arc body from arc didn't stop them!! 

If I didn't have either, I'd be hard pressed to figure out which one to get. But since I have an arc already, I might end up getting one and not replacing my arc on my keychian, as the arc "always" has light due to the insane runtime. But insteand it would be great for the times I got tired of holding my whole keychain to work on something, and needed just a little more light. One of these on a necklace would be cool and handy for working in *very* small spaces.

Anyways I'm glad Fenix is here, as I've been waiting forever for a single 1.5v cell luxeon light to come around that wasn't some other host modified!


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## GJW (Jan 16, 2006)

Finbar said:


> I hope all the neewbs can gain the gift of sight...once the problems start compounding. Your HA(is it even?) is flaking off - what's the customer service like from halfway around the globe?



Well, you're right that Arc has great customer service.
I can say that with great confidence because I remember the days when about 1/4 of Arc products had problems that required returns.
And they almost always tried to make things right, until they closed their doors, that is.
As far as Arc goes, you're still pretty much of a newbie yourself.
You can say that yesterday is irrelevant and only today matters but if people hadn't given Arc chance after chance after chance back then there would be no Arc today.



Finbar said:


> IMHO, you get what you pay for. Pay for quality, get quality. Pay for crap...you get Junkix!



The Arc of today is pretty much the same price as the Arc of yesterday so your junk argument pretty much falls apart there.
Pay for Arc, get junk, send it back, get quality.
Pay for Arc again, get junk again, send it back, get nothing because Arc is out of business.
Pay for Arc, wait 4 months for it to ship, finally get quality.
Maybe.
:naughty:


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## Beamhead (Jan 16, 2006)

Finbar said:


> Comparing a Nichia to a Luxeon clone...used car salesmen tactics.
> 
> The seller of junk starting a thread under the Reviews forum...writes his own review...? I think this is called, "Conflict of interest." Not to mention - clinical over-hyping of an inferior...light.
> 
> ...



Finbar you obviously want to make this personal....

As you did here  before.

And were warned here  before.


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## tsask (Jan 16, 2006)

GJW said:


> Well, you're right that Arc has great customer service.


I agree they replaced my ARC AAA P in time for me to have it for a special event!
The owner,a nice guy, Peter Gransee. genuinely cares about service and customers. I would reccomend.

Along with that, I took the plunge and ordered my FENIX LOP:rock: 

still waiting for the "Ocean" My keychain light quest is adding up:
TERRA LUX 1 Watt chromestar from Brightguy about $40 shipped, ARC AAA P a little more $45 a couple led lensers $10-$12 each-now a source of clip for Fenix LOP, of course several, Infinty CMG Gerber AA's @$20 each..now that's at least $115 but I forgot about my FENIV1LP. $45 more make that $160 and I didn't mention my present keychain CR123 ILUMiBEAM $40 (BTW that thing can throw!) so I'm at OVER $200 OMG!!! in keychain lights!!! still waiting to get my first PEAK "Ocean"! that AMILITE T3 looks good, as does the PEAK RAINER CPF Special!! so many lights so little time.......


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## Gransee (Jan 16, 2006)

liquidsix, understand that I make the Arc-AAA and am therefore biased. 

I don't have the AAA fenix but I have seen the AA version. I would expect the luxeon will make it brighter and whiter. The reflector will also help produce a smoother beam. 

I might actually get caught up with our Arc-AAA orders due to this... 

Like several people have said, the Arc-AAA is going to be a bit smaller and have a longer run time. Different tools for different types of usage. 

From what I understand, most people carry a small keychain type light and a larger pocket light (123, etc). The larger light may not be carried for every little trip you make, so the keychain light is always there in case of an emergency. In my opinion, it needs to be small, tough, bright enough for most tasks and not prone to dead batteries.

As I have said before, I recommend carrying at the bare minimum a light that does not require you to keep remembering to carrying it. Most people carry keys when they leave their home. That is why I recommend a keychain size flashlight. Like I have said, the 'dim' flashlight you have on hand always beats a bright light left at home.

Luxeons definately produce more light. Yes, you can be sure I have already researched this at least some.  I have shown several luxeon/jupiter protos at the GTs. What I have found over the years is that the bigger LEDs typically require bigger reflectors and housings to produce at least a similiar if not improved throw to the 5mm. The Arc-AAA is already pushing the size envelope in my opinion, I definately don't want to go larger for that class of flashlight. (I have a saying that is not meant to offend but to be a challenge for me: Any idiot can make a light brighter by making it bigger)

Also, the temptation is to use the extra power to make the light brighter at the expense of run time. Although most emergency situations don't last very long, longer runtime means you don't have to check up on the light as often to make sure it is still ready for anything. Multiple brightness levels would be nice, but that features tends to push the light out of the keychain size and more into the pocket size.

If the light has some feature (like being too big) that causes it to get left at home by accident, then it not an ideal emergency light. I am not trying to kill any sacred cows or anything, the final decision is always with the guy who has to carry and use the thing. 

Peter
(edited for spelling and grammar, made one paragraph a little simpler to read)


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## IsaacHayes (Jan 16, 2006)

Peter, Well said. They are 2 lights in different classes/categories of use. This thread is just to compare brightness/overal size I'm sure. Not to decide which is superior. Each has it's own special use.

But the thread is good so you get an idea of how small (or big) the light is compared to the Arc, and what brightness to expect.

--- 
I use my arc a lot, but not for long periods of time, since I live in an urban enviroment. For me the fenix might work just as well with added brightness as my only keychain light. Others might use thier lights differently, and require longer runtime/etc. Hard to say which would be more appropriate for a given person. Best to use CPF's motto "Buy them both" and find out which you use the most!! Then keep the other one in the tool bag or around your neck for back up!!  :thumbsup:

Plus I'm intriqued at having a keychain light that would pump out more lumens than my Arc Rev3 NichiaCS upgrade, which is already amazing!!


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## greenLED (Jan 16, 2006)

:thanks: Peter, for (once again) putting the ArcAAA design into perspective.

My AAA doesn't leave my keychain. Anything bigger (be it 5mm LED or Lux) goes by itself in another pocket.

Still not sure how people are starting to compare these two lights when very few actually have used the L0P and directly compared it with the ArcAAA.


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## 4sevens (Jan 16, 2006)

Finbar,

If you have something personal that you need to get out about me, let's
take it to PM and leave it out of this thread. I have nothing to hide, but
this baiting with personal attacks is ugly and immature and I'm not going
to respond to this in public. PM sent to finbar.


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## Finbar (Jan 16, 2006)

JasonC8301 said:


> Does quality fall short? yes....
> 
> The threads aren't the best, the HA can be improved,...



I think you said it best with your own words.



JasonC8301 said:


> So if you drive a Hyundai, Kia, or any other budget sub $12K new car you are driving crap?



As far as automobiles...ask a Rolls Royce owner. I think you will find the answers you seek.



GJW said:


> As far as Arc goes, you're still pretty much of a newbie yourself.



So, you have seen my credit card statements and PayPal receipts? I have purchased most models that ARC made or is making. I bought the first run of the ARC AAA-P V4...in the plastic baggie. I have purchased multiple ARC AAA-P v4 from the internet. I have bought different versions on Ebay. Why heck, I even have a red HA, 2003 CPF Edition ARC AAA-P. Looking for the green HA version....

An ARC neewb? Hardly.

Peter is one flahlight genius, of several, that has inspired me to design my own light.

It is easy to criticize someone that has produced something. Most people will never even make the crudest LED flashlight. A rare group will think of an original idea and design something that has never existed before that moment.



GJW said:


> The Arc of today is pretty much the same price as the Arc of yesterday so your junk argument pretty much falls apart there.



I think you misunderstood my comments. I said, 'Pay for quality, get quality.' If light Z is selling for $42 and suddenly the price rises to $100 - that does not make the light quality. A piece of junk will still be a piece of junk - no matter the price.

For example, when I first became interested in wine I asked a wine expert, 'Is there really a difference between a $5 bottle of wine and a $500 bottle?'
He replied, "If one does not know crap, one will not taste crap."

So, price does have some bearing on the matter, to a point. If the wine is MadDog 20/20 - the $500 price will never magically change the $5 contents into the $500 contents.



Beamhead said:


> Finbar you obviously want to make this personal....



Nothing personal about it at all. That is your own interpretation.

I simply call them as I see them.

Some mistake my passion and intensity for such trivia.

Many claim that they wish for honesty, but I have found that brutal honesty is seen by others as worse than lying.

It seems odd that some are bashing an ARC product - that is no longer in production - and using that older product as a poor comparison to sell their over-hyped wares.

If I were said product hyper, I would be concerned that ARC would litigate if they own the ARC trademark. Especially, when that ARC image and name were being used to make a nonsensical comparison, to resell one's own wares.

What about trashing ARC? I am the only one that sees this disparity? I am really in the land of the blind?

My comments were my own opinion. Everyone else expresses their's. It seems to have struck a nerve of truth though.

Fin


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## IsaacHayes (Jan 16, 2006)

Finbar said:


> It is easy to criticize someone that has produced something.


Yeah, so what's the point of all this criticizing?

At an attempt to save this thread.. Who's going to be the first to post a beamshot comparing the L0P and Arc-P Rev 4 brightness?


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## JasonC8301 (Jan 16, 2006)

Finbar said:


> I think you said it best with your own words.
> 
> As far as automobiles...ask a Rolls Royce owner. I think you will find the answers you seek.



Even with those slight issues, I still buy it. I earned my money so that entitles me to spending it where I see fit. 

The Arc can be improved too. Its not the perfect product. I am also not bashing it. I own one and can physically compare it to a Fenix.

Are YOU a Roll-Royce owner? So if you don't own one are you driving a piece of crap? I have sat in Roll Royce vehicles at Car Shows and is it nice, yes, BUT am I wait are you able to afford one? I know I don't have hundreds of thousands of dollars to spend on a car.

Being tactful is something you obviously don't know how to do. 

What is the truth is the Fenix is a nice product and someone who doesn't own one is bashing it without even being able to make a comparison. What other lights do you own? 

How can you honestly bash a light and call it a piece of junk if you haven't even used one? Is it because it is made in China?


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## Unforgiven (Jan 17, 2006)

_*The personal attacks and name calling will stop or this thread will be closed and other appropriate action taken.

Unforgiven
*_

Finbar, you have been warned before, I'll give you a few days to cool off, consider this your last warning... :shakehead


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## paulr (Jan 17, 2006)

I think an L0p vs Arc beamshot has already been posted.

For those talking about long runtime and emergency keychain lights, here's a little experiment in perspective. I took one of those 60 cent Shenzen "Fauxton" coin cell lights and did a runtime test in my walk-in closet over the past week.

1. At 8 hours or so the Fauxton was still about as bright as a stock CMG Infinity (non-Ultra). That's much dimmer than an Arc AAA v4 but still comparable to a light that's still completely practical and was considered popular at the time the Arc AAA was introduced (the Arc AAA was more or less Peter's response to the Infinity). So the Fauxton was completely useable when the Arc would have dribbled off to a very dim "moon mode".

2. At 24 hours, the Fauxton was much dimmer than an Infinity but still bright enough to navigate a dark closet after a few moments of getting dark adapted.

3. After SIX SOLID DAYS NONSTOP, the Fauxton was still dimly lit, but still bright enough to navigate the dark closet after spending several minutes getting very well dark adapted.

4. After seven days nonstop, the Fauxton was still glowing, enough to find it in the dark but not enough to really see anything by, even dark adapted. Its total output might have been comparable to a 5mm tritium marker but I didn't have a tritium marker to make a comparison with. I didn't compare directly but I'd say it was certainly brighter than my Luminox watch dial.

5. At that point (seven days) I shut the Fauxton off and waited about 30 seconds for the batteries to recover a little bit. I then turned it back on and it again made enough light to see around the closet. That lasted about 30 seconds, then faded back to tritium-light dimness. I let it recover again and it again made enough light to see around the closet, but I didn't test how long thated. I shut it off again with the idea of letting it refresh til the next evening (i.e. last night), but I forgot to test it last night. I'll see if I remember to try tonight. The point is the Fauxton batteries are very hard to completely kill.

6. Of course the Fauxton could get an immediate brightness boost by swapping in a Nichia CS led and I might try that on another one.

7. I also plan to test a Countycomm $1.00 light with a white led but with a CR2032 cell instead of the stock pair of CR2016's. I expect this to run useably (defined as bright enough to see around the closet without needing good dark adaptation) for at least a week nonstop.

Conclusion: the Arc AAA is a fine piece of rugged, precision equipment, like those hard chrome Ronson Varaflame cigarette lighters that Cy has mentioned (I'd like to get one of those sometime). Any flashaholic can carry it with pride. The Fauxton is like a Bic disposable which does more or less the same job with a lot less class. For pure functionality per dollar though, it's very hard to beat.

Re Fenix: Peter for a while made an excellent, highly regarded light called the Arc LS. It put out maybe 15 lumens (non-P version) and had an NX05 optic. It was a pocket light, not a keychain light, and people were generally happy with its 2 hour(?) runtime, which beat comparably bright similar sized lights like the Surefire 3P or E1e which ran about 1 hour. 

If you're comparing the L0p to an Arc light, maybe the right comparison is with the original LS rather than the current AAA, i.e. the L0p is a small 15-ish lumen pocket light, not a big keychain light. As for me, I tend to think of the L1p that way and have been happy with it as a pocket light, so I haven't ordered an L0p yet (will probably get one sooner or later).


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## Robocop (Jan 17, 2006)

Also to keep this thread on track I will add a few comments....

The ARC AAA for me was the one that really started it all. It is to this day a cherished part of my collection with 5 versions of the AAA still owned by myself. The service from Mr Gransee was top notch and I never hesitated once to hit that PayPal button as I knew the light would be sent in good condition and if it broke I would be taken care of.

I really do not think many will ever doubt ARC and this thread I believe in no way is saying the ARC is inferior in any way. I do think it is trying to show that as far as size goes this L0P is not that big when compared to something almost everyone knows and that is the ARC AAA. I do not think anyone is bashing the ARC and if nothing else it is a big compliment to be compared to the timeless design of the ARC AAA.

In no way are these 2 lights similiar other than the shape and fairly small size. The only downfall I see would be the warranty with the maker being such a long distance from many of us and with the troubles of communication.

I do have faith in 4sevens as he has shown us all a great deal of determination to bring us these products. He seems to have a good relationship with the maker and most likely minor problems could be handled in the future should any defects show up.

Yes Fenix is no ARC however they should have at least earned our respect by now simply due to their speedy responses to our wants and the simple fact that they produce lights quickly and of pretty decent quality. Personally there is more than enough room with my light addiction to have many different favorite makers and I will support any company that does right by me. So Far ARC has done me very right in the past and I am also growing to like Fenix.

It seems to me that the Fenix is similiar to the ARC AAA however will not take the title on any one feature. It will however be the first AAA mass produced luxeon for us to all enjoy and for that it should be welcomed.

As far as the other issues that it appears a few have we do have the underground for any personal problems. I for one do greatly appreciate 4sevens as well as Fenix. I am a loyal customer of Mr.Gransee however I am growing to really like Fenix as well.


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## 4sevens (Jan 17, 2006)

Robocop said:


> Also to keep this thread on track I will add a few comments....
> 
> The ARC AAA for me was the one that really started it all. It is to this day a cherished part of my collection with 5 versions of the AAA still owned by myself. The service from Mr Gransee was top notch and I never hesitated once to hit that PayPal button as I knew the light would be sent in good condition and if it broke I would be taken care of.



You know, I had the same experience. In fact my brother (Daich here on 
CPF) bought me an ARC AAA back in 2003 in my pre-cpf days. I was amazed 
at how small the light was and how long it ran. I carried it everywhere I 
went. It was true to the definition of an EDC for me. I was latent flashaholic 
but it was the arc aaa that launched me into this hobby.

To me, the arc aaa owns a piece of LED history that nothing else can or
will ever replace.


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## Robocop (Jan 17, 2006)

I like the suggestion gave by Paulr to compare the ARC LS to the Fenix. They are both 1 watters and I think the early ARCs ran the lux at 333mA I believe.

I have 4 of the LS models and with a simple reflector swap from the optic they can still hold their own over many of todays lights. All that light really ever needed was a reflector in my opinion. When I say compare the two I believe the L1P would be a fair match up to the LS.

I have tried to determine the size of the L0P from the pics and I do believe it will be about the limit for the keychain. It is a little larger than the ARC AAA however I may actually carry both and simply remove the P-38 military can opener I carry as well as my spare handcuff key for a little more room. I believe I could pull it off and have the best of both worlds.

I rotate out my old version of the ARC AAA-P white LED and the Turquoise version...always have liked my old turquois ARC.


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## Robocop (Jan 17, 2006)

4sevens it sure is nice to think back to the good old days huh? Remember when the choices were so few and we all thought with just one more purchase we would have the next best thing?....Man I bought those ARCs like crazy and as soon as I found out about the moddings of LitFuse and others...well it got much worse after that.

The main thing I feel for most of us is that it only takes a few lights to be prepared for almost any situation. I honestly keep this interest mostly as a strange hobby and only say I "need" the next light to make myself feel better about the purchase. I have way too many lights as it is but you know what I do not care. I like to compare lights simply out of fun and it is a huge compliment that I always reach for my ARC AAA when comparing another 5MM light. With each new Luxeon purchase I grab one of my ARC-LSHPs to do battle....that in itself speaks highly of ARC.

The ARC AAA was the first real light I owned and at the time the cost was easily justified to have a classic. Once I handled one it seemed to have some form of feeling with it...it just did feel right in my hand and it looked like a tool that was simple yet classy. 

Fenix will have a long way to go to have that type of following however you have to start somewhere. Like it or not they make a good product and actually listen to the masses or so it seems. I still say that with as many flashaholics we have here there is more than enough room for many makers as well as many lights. We need to not forget what this forum is mostly about other than lights...It is for fun as well and I still look at it from this point of view. Sure lets keep comparing lights and if today one is better then tomorrow there will be another challenger. This is good for us all and any personal problems with a few sour members should be kept away from this board.

Thanks again 4sevens for the effort involved.


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## paulr (Jan 17, 2006)

I had an Arc AAA and about 5 other lights with me during the east coast blackout of 2003. The Arc AAA was all I really needed and then some. The main need I had was getting around inside an apt. building that was pitch black inside, so even a tiny amount of light was enough. However, I also used the Arc as a candle for several hours when sitting around chatting with people (didn't really need the "candlelight" but it helped the mood, and I had plenty of batteries). 

The next day I was sitting around idly admiring the AAA and thinking what a well made light it was (it's still one of the most attractively designed flashlights out there) when I got one of those suddenly chilling realizations that we all get once in a while. "I'm going to lose this thing someday, and Arc LLC is a small company--they might stop making them! Oh no!". I bought a spare one soon afterwards and stashed it in my closet where it's still sitting in an unopened package. Arc LLC did in fact go out of business and AAA's became very scarce and expensive for a while (I guess I shoulda sold my spare then). Thankfully Arc is back (in a different structure) and the new Arc AAA is even better than the old; plus, there are now various comparable lights available. I stopped EDC'ing my AAA when I got a Spyderco Jester/Photon II combination since I found the AAA and Jester were about the same size and having one of them on my keyring was ok but having both made the keyring too clunky. I put it (or something similar) back on the keyring when I go on a trip or anywhere else where I think I'll need a light.


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## LED Zeppelin (Jan 17, 2006)

I don't have an L0P, so I can't comment on that light.

But I do have an Arc AAA-P, and it's a great light. My only complaint about the light is the tint, which is too blue for my taste. It does have great runtime, and good throw, and is always the standard by which I measure my own modding efforts for similarly sized lights. 

I did have 4 Fenix L1P v 2.5's, and they were impressive when I first got them, but I wasn't happy with the regulation curve, so I gave them away or sold them. I didn't abuse them much so I can't comment on the finish which seems to be one common complaint. 

I haven't ordered an L0P because it is too big for something I'd want on my keychain, and I have many other pocket lights.

So what is on my keychain now? A Lux modded Arc AAA. Bright, white, right size, proven finish, and a piece of flashlight history.


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## liquidsix (Jan 17, 2006)

Wow, it's great to see a lot of interest in my thread (and a post from Gransee!). I see alot of speculating on what this thread is about, or why I'd want to compare two completely different lights, and some arguments about the quality of one product over another. I don't doubt that they're both very high quality lights, considering the reputation of the Arc light (the benchmark product at flashlight reviews) and the little brother of one well accepted Fenix L1P. The reason I wanted to compare these lights (because they're so obviously different) is to guage people's preferances for a high output over a longer runtime in a keychain light.

I Just recently gave away my streamlight key-mate to a friend, which has a runtime of about 90 hours. So I really don't have any idea if 1.6 hours of runtime is going to be enough. I was wondering if alot of people had disapointing moments when their keychain died on them because the runtime sucked (I've had moments where my strion died instantly on me and all I was left with was my key-mate, but I've learned my lesson about short battery life lights and camping). I imagine the average number of us all use keychain lights about the same amount (except for the first couple weeks when we can't stop playing with them), so I wondered how everybody felt about trading in their runtime for the WOW factor. As well I was wondering how people felt about the usefullness of a brighter light in most of their emergency situations, over a dimmer light that last longer.

I also really wanted to get a good idea of what to buy, I ordered an arc a little over a week ago, then found out about the fenix l0p. Well let's just say shortly after I created this thread I ordered a fenix l0p as well, if not because it's brighter than just to hold me over until my arc gets here. In the end I'll probably make most of my money back for the loser [of the spot on my keychain] on ebay anyways.


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## randyo (Jan 17, 2006)

Rather than Ebaying a light, find more places to stash. You just can't live without a light in your cellphone pouch, or glove-box, or bug-out bag, or tool box, or center console, or bed-stand, or other pocket, or camping supplies, or desk at work, or ..............


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## Robocop (Jan 17, 2006)

Well if one thinks about it in logical terms there really is no real comparison between these two lights other than size and battery type. They are 2 different type of lights with one as a 1 watt lux and the other a 5mm LED.

In regards to size Fenix seems to really have done a good job at coming close to the ARC and the turn around time from their last project was very fast. I seem to think we can have the best of both worlds here as there is surely a market for each style of light.

I have read many reasons why some makers would not pursue this design due to run time, larger reflectors needed, higher voltage required,heat issues and the EDC ability of an emergency keychain type light. Honestly does it seem that true flashaholic people really care? It seems many simply want one just to have a AAA luxeon in as small a package as possible.

Sure there is no comparison as an ARC AAA will hold its own against any other 5mm light. I am not so sure Fenix could match an ARC when it comes to the classic 5mm however I am sure they would try if it seemed that is what would sale. I believe they simply looked at what we wanted...not what is practical...not what would run for a week from a single cell...not what they thought was a perfect EDC but simply what was different and no one else had offered.

We will see if this design is a success however something tells me it already is. I for one could care less if it runs bright for 45 minutes and has crappy anodizing and also gets hot enough to burn my hands. I will be in line to get one however as I am sure many others will as well. I will not compete with my cherished ARCs and will continue to carry one daily. I will also have the L0P to play with simply as I enjoy lights. I have plenty for emergency situations as I feel we most all do.

I think the higher end makers should stick with what sales for them and remain loyal to their designs. I also feel however they should also join the competition in what sales and just offer form factors to compete alongside their tried and true designs.

I mean answer this honestly....If ARC was to come out tomorrow with a AAA luxeon...regardless of runtime or any other impractical fault we would all go crazy trying to get as many as we could afford right? I know I would beat a path to ARCs door trying to get one. Just as Peak will surely sale their version as soon as it hits the market. I mean to me it is a no brainer that any AAA luxeon will be a huge success simply as it is just cool to have if for nothing other than the novelty of it.


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## paulr (Jan 17, 2006)

I'm right now thinking of the L0p as a possible alternative to the CR2 Ion rather than the Arc AAA. An Energizer L92 lithium AAA cell has about the same amount of energy as a CR2, so they start out on roughly equal terms wrt power supply. The Ion is a much nicer light and is shorter than the L0p but its larger thickness makes it fit less well on a keychain. The L0p has the added ability to use alkaline or nimh cells at reduced performance. I haven't figured out how the total weights or volumes compare.


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## Cmoore (Jan 17, 2006)

I still think the the ARC AAA is the best overall keychain light on the market today. The key operative word here is "overall" meaning all aspects of a keychain light considered in a holistic manner.

Yet, I'm going to get a Fenix L0P too. It's not merely the CPF buy both approach for me; like most CPF'ers, I like small and bright and the Fenix appears to fall within this arena plus it is within my give-it-a-try price range -- so, I'll purchase one and see what I think based on my own observations and usage. I suspect many other ARC owners will do the same.

I don't consider the two lights direct competitors. The Fenix, if it lives up to my hopes, will be a pocket carry and not a keychain light for me.


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## Raven (Jan 17, 2006)

The Fenix series of lights is simply the market meeting the demand. 

How many request for an ARC AA have been shot down.

Now Fenix rushes in to fill a void that didn't even have to be a void in the first place.

And while Fenix might not measure up to ARC, in terms of quality, the gap is narrow, and could close even further.

I'll never understand why ARC doesn't offer a AA model.

Oh, I understand the "a AA couldn't be a keychain light" argument, but clearly - obviously - that really doesn't matter to a lot of folks, because Fenix became a sensation by offering a light which supposedly had no pratical application.

Pratical application, indeed.

You would think ARC might re-examine their decision not to offer an AA version, based on the runaway success of Fenix.

ARC should take a lesson from US automakers; listen to market demand, or risk losing it to Asian manufacturers.


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## paulr (Jan 17, 2006)

Arc (the old Arc LLC) did make an AA model that was well received and is still in high demand on BST. The current Arc company is basically starting from scratch with the AAA and isn't yet up to speed on AAA production, so directing its resources into developing new models isn't a great idea until the AAA situation is sorted out. However, Peter has said he'll be making the AA again at some point.


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## greenLED (Jan 17, 2006)

liquidsix, the 90hrs runtime is "on" time (time that it emits light), that doesn't mean it'll be useful amount of light for 90hrs


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## Empath (Jan 17, 2006)

*There is no reason specific manufacturer's forums should share billing with other manufacturers. The specific manufacturer's forum should be as purely specific for the manufacturers as possible, within reason. "Within reason" doesn't restrict comparisons of products, discussed in an incidental manner, and without sharing marketing advantage to the suppliers or manufacturers of the comparable product. This thread doesn't satisfy that purity of purpose. The general flashlight categories are more applicable for such.*

It's being moved to the LED forum.


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## BentHeadTX (Jan 17, 2006)

The original and subsequent Arc AAA lights are what Peter considers to be EDC lights. Small as possible, at least 5 hours runtime, durable, HA-III and reliability. If any of the above things change, then it is not an Arc AAA. Like it or hate it, it is how Peter designs his light. 

Looked at the pre-production Peak Ocean AAA Luxeon and it is slightly shorter than my Matterhorn 3 Snow29 keychain light. The body is the same diameter as the Matterhorn (as small as possible) but the head is larger by around 20-25% This does not matter to me (easier to twist on) and it gives more space for critical electronic components, the Luxeon, larger reflector and better heat sinking ability. Peak knows that there is no way around this and has been working on the curcuits/reflector for over a year! They then put in a momentary switch, real HA-III and (from the charts) 2+ hours until the 50% level has been reached. It will then dive down into "moon mode" or a low level of light for several hours. Sounds very good to me and fits my requirements much more than the L0P.

Would Peter like the Ocean AAA? It is not his style as it is slightly longer, larger head and the runtime is too short for his standards of EDC AAA keychain lights. My Matterhorn 3 LED Snow29 AAA is not his style either. It is longer, does not regulate as well (I use lithium AAA's to eliminate this problem) and does not have the 5 hours runtime required. My requirements are a bit different, give me at least 90 minutes of brightness and a long tail just in case and a very white beam. I get all my requirements with the Matterhorn but the Arc AAA fulfills his requirements as he sets them.

Sure, Arc could of put a 10mm LED 100mA LED in the Arc AAA a few years ago and was asked by CPF. It would kill the runtime, would not get a good runtime and make the head larger. Now the same questions are asked after the L0P becomes available. Peter answered the same way as he did a few years ago... those 5 requirements again. Gotta give him respect that he never varies from his view of the Arc AAA. If Nichia, Lumileds, Cree, Bob, Skippy or Harold make a 5mm LED that punches out 20 lumens at 50mA... you could be Peter would be all over that puppy! It will fit his mantra of the golden five rules. 

Will Arc make a Luxeon (K2, K3, K4 or K9) version of the Arc AAA? I would think so if he could get a high/low setting for the minimum runtime, have built-in optics (think of a hybrid Lux with the 5mm optics) and all the other size/durabily considerations he requires. I would expect such a thing to be an Arc AA first since it can have the same look, feel and size of the original Arc AA but added features since he has some room to work with. 

The Fenix L0P is the first mass produced Luxeon AAA light and they deserve recognition for doing so. The hassle comes from it's position as the little brother to the L1P... I have one and would not want the poor regulation as I won't be blowing big bucks on lithium AAA cells on a short runtime light. My Arc AAA's and Peaks have been beat up on my keychain for years. Face it, once you get used to pulling out your keychain light and it looks decent after all that time--you get used to it. Arc is the one that proved an AAA light can handle getting beat up by keys and look good after clanging it around for years. I admit it, I am spoiled by this and Peter is to blame! The Pelican L1 is mearly a poor memory after Arc proved a keychain light can take a hit and still work. 

I don't consider or compare an Arc AA to the Fenix L1P AA... not used for the same function. My Arc AA is a classic and performs low level light in candle mode (looks like L0P tail) Don't see a need replacing it with a Peak AA single LED, Gerber Infinity or new Arc AA. It fills it's requirement and will do so for many years. As a flashaholic, EDC lights and high powered mods are in constant flux... but my Arc AAA red and AA fill needs perfectly and won't be replaced. There is a satisfaction being content in areas of specific needs and after all these years, I have low-level red and low-level emergency lights covered. 

My Matterhorn will move to my wife's keychain and I will be getting an Ocean AAA. Nothing against the L0P but I need longer runtime, better regulation, HA-III and a momentary with lock out switch is a nice touch. Will I be content? No... I blame that on Peter... a high/low option would be great so I can get the original runtime of the venerable Arc AAA. 

As always, I'll be watching Arc to see if contentment will come sooner than later.


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## Anarchocap (Jan 17, 2006)

For me, the question more becomes one of practicality. Most of the people here are buying lights for the sake of buying lights.

I, for one, have plenty of lights. Most of them, I never really use. They are the "one-percent-ers." I think Peter hit it right on the head when he posted that the light you use is the one you actually have on you when you need it. And it is obvious that Arc has focused on a specific platform that it thinks it can do very well with its limited resources and capacity, and at the same time turn a decent profit.

I too have been around when ARC was the only one in the business offering anything more than a coin LED light. I was very sad to see that they did, in fact, go out of business. Its nice to see them back.

One thing is for sure, competition is great. Its the whole reason you all have the selection you have to choose from. And ARC is really the company that had vision enough to set the standard that pretty much everything else is measured by.

I have a Fenix L1P, and an Arc 4+, and an old Arc AAA-P. What is my everyday carry light? It was a Photon 3, now replaced by a Photon Freedom. Why? Because it does what I need it to do and it fits on my keychain with the minimum bulk of anything else out there. Nothing else has been able to do that for me, plus provide multiple brightness levels. It is my 95% light and it cost me $10.

The Arc 4+ (~200ish SN) goes with me whenever I can actually plan to have a light with me, eg. traveling, reading at night, etc., etc.

I like the Fenix L1P. It does what its supposed to do, has a good amount of quality and function to justify its price, plus running on a standardized and cheap battery platform. I don't foresee me ever purchasing an L0P given the current feature-set because it can't replace my 95% light given my requirements. The same goes for me with my old Arc AAA-P, which now is on the keyring of the girl I am currently dating.

I look at the lights I purchase as tools to fill specific needs. The Fenix L1P will be my general light I can have around my desk at work. I can see me purchasing an L2P as a light to replace the Princeton Tec Surge that I currently have in my car emergency kit because its less bulky, gives a good amount of light and run-time, and uses way less batteries. Could the Photon fill that role too? Yes, with trade-offs of course, namely brightness and run-time.

I think Arc is a great company with a great product. I think the same about Fenix. And the same about Photon. The question becomes, what really fits your needs and how much money would you like to part with?


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## paulr (Jan 17, 2006)

We usually measure runtime in terms of reaching 50% brightness since in the incan era there was typically a sharp drop after that (plus beam color went to pot). But given LED's and a way to control the brightness curve I don't think 5 hours to 50% is important in the slightest. It's enough to specify that the absolute number of lumens at 5 hours is greater than such-and-such. The Arc4+ was an extreme example: set it on full, and the microprocessor would progressively dim the light as the battery ran down according to any sequence the designer wanted (subject to total energy available), e.g. it could be 30 lumens with a fresh battery and (say) 2 or 3 lumens after 5 hours. The location of the 50% point (15 lumens) or the initial brightness is practically irrelevant if you have an unexpected need for 5 hours of light. What matters is that you're still getting that 2 or 3 lumens at the END of the 5 hours.

With analog circuitry there's less precise control but there's still some. A 1AAA Luxeon light with 10-20 lumen output for 1 hour and then a 4 hour "tail" above 1 lumen, would IMO satisfy the runtime desires that led to the Arc AAA. There would still be issues of beam shape from the larger LED, which brand P dealt with by using a larger head.

Brand P's most successful designs IMO are the ones that imitated Arc most closely. When they've attempted ideas of their own (e.g. their removable keychain tail) I haven't liked the results that much. The Ocean AAA sounds promising but I'll wait to see it before getting too excited.


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## jar3ds (Jan 18, 2006)

for reasons that peter pointed out i agree that I find that the Arc AAA P ideally suited for its purpose... however currently I carry an arc and a hdsu60GT daily.... i could see myself replacing both for some cr2 li-ion based light.. who knows


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## JJohn (Jan 18, 2006)

If anyone can make a 2 or 3 stage AAA based light, I would buy several in an instant. I am spoiled by my HDS U60 and want that same functionality in something that I can always easily carry. 

There are times when you need a fair amount of light and other times (such as reading in the tent when camping) that even my Peak pocket-style H Matterhorn is too bright. I want something that can be set to have a runtime of an hour and be usefully bright and then turn it down to enjoy many hours reading in a low light environment. Something like this meets Peter's requirement of >5Hrs of useful light and yet, when needed can be significantly brighter. If the LOP could be modded for two stages I would buy a couple, but, it is also fair to say that if Arc or another manufacturer who understands reliability and rugged design made such a light, that would be my preference.

John


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## greenLED (Jan 18, 2006)

JJohn, you're check out andrewwynn's Nano.


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## GJW (Jan 18, 2006)

greenLED said:


> JJohn, you're check out andrewwynn's Nano.




I'll second that.


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## Solstice (Jan 18, 2006)

Some long and thoughtful replies here (and I guiltily admit to skipping over a bit). I just wanted to add to my original comments in regard to the thread-starter's (liquidsix's) comments. Generally speaking, runtime and brightness are mutually exclusive, especially when dealing with power-hungry luxeon emitters. I tend to be in the "moderate" camp for a keychain light- I like several hours of runtime for peace of mind and economy, and "enough" light for general tasks. The Arc AAA rev4 provides perhaps slightly MORE than "enough" in my opinion. The L0P provides the output I associate with a larger (non-keychain) light and has a "wow" factor, but may not be the most practical choice for a keychain.

There are other considerations here as well. Tint, as many have mentioned, is much better with a luxeon (but truthfully, my Arc AAA rev4 tint doesn't really bother me that much). Luxeons, when driven at or under spec, provide equivalent light without the lumen degredation associated with overdriven 5mm LEDs. 
However, Luxeons are hard to focus without a larger reflector and have a fragile silicone dome that needs to be protected for use in a keychain light.

Considering all of these factors, and in lieu of a 2 stage light which may add to the complexity, size and reliability, what I would really like to see is a luxeon based AAA light underdriven at or just slightly above 5mm levels. Such a light would produce the high-quality output associated with luxeons, the emitter would live a long and happy life, and hopefully the runtime vs. brightness could be perfectly balanced.


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## JJohn (Jan 18, 2006)

greenLED said:


> JJohn, you're check out andrewwynn's Nano.



Thanks! I think he is a very creative designer and I was excited when the nano was announced. The problem I have is that, due to my uses, I need to be able to run an EDC light with common primary cells that I can find in any state in the US and in most countries. 

This need has forced me to go with an Arc or Peak AAA option for indoors stuff and a HDS U60 for more outdoors work. If a nano could use a common primary battery I would love it, even though the design seems to be biased toward maximum brightness in a small package rather than long runtime at moderate brightness.

Please, no flames, I understand that my needs are different than most. I use a light everyday for both work and home and I have tried many options. Surprisingly I find that the low brightness levels get about 90% of my use.

Can any modders help me here in my quest for a small AAA 2-stage?

John


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## cratz2 (Jan 18, 2006)

Forgive my ignorance, but do you think the HDS on the lowest setting is not appropriate for indoor use? I like the ARC and think it's surely one of a handful of 'modern classics' of flashlight design, but if I had the HDS and I always ALWAYS had it with me, I can't see the need for the ARC AAA.


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## greg_in_canada (Jan 18, 2006)

Solstice said:


> Considering all of these factors, and in lieu of a 2 stage light which may add to the complexity, size and reliability, what I would really like to see is a luxeon based AAA light underdriven at or just slightly above 5mm levels. Such a light would produce the high-quality output associated with luxeons, the emitter would live a long and happy life, and hopefully the runtime vs. brightness could be perfectly balanced.


 
I agree 100%. I may still buy an L0P but I would be more likely to buy one that drove the Luxeon at 100mA and had several hours of run time.

Of course a screamer with a reliable 2 level switch is always better.

Greg


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## ledled (Jan 18, 2006)

I think Arc AAA & Fenix L0P Complements each other. LOP is too bright for reading but it has good throw for outdoor
while the Arc AAA is too dim for outdoor use. I carry 2 keychains anyway & putting one on each is perfect. 

My only dislike about the Arc AAA is it's overdriving a 5mm LED instead of under driving a luxeon. Cost issue? Arc AAA is priced high enough to cover the cost of an emitter. I've been hesitating to invest $50 in the new generation of Arc because seeing that the LED will die in a short period of time. Dorcy drives the LED even harder but I don't care if I lost $6.


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## JJohn (Jan 18, 2006)

cratz2 said:


> Forgive my ignorance, but do you think the HDS on the lowest setting is not appropriate for indoor use? I like the ARC and think it's surely one of a handful of 'modern classics' of flashlight design, but if I had the HDS and I always ALWAYS had it with me, I can't see the need for the ARC AAA.




The HDS, if just a tad smaller would be the perfect tool for me. Although I work on technology, I wear more formal office clothing that makes the HDS not appropriate on a belt and slightly uncomfortable in pants pockets. For my outdoor work and at home, where more casual clothing is appropriate, it is the best. 

In an office, the small AAA 5mm Arc/Peak lights go unnoticed in a pocket and light up the inside of a chassis (or a dark area) quite nicely. The right tool for the job.

I would love to EDC just one light but, I now use one of these two depending on situation. That's why I would like a 2 or 3 stage AAA primary cell light. Can the LOP be modded for two stages?

John


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## rodmeister (Jan 18, 2006)

The Fenix LOP looks like the perfect light for my needs. I used to carry a Photon II on my key chain and a ARC AAA in my pocket. With the purchase of the Photon Freedom I've stopped carrying the ARC since it's not much brighter. With the brighter Fenix I'll have a small bright pocket light for those times I need extra light. The runtime doesn't bother me since I use rechargables and I'm always topping off the charge. If the Fenix craps out in an emergency I've got my adjustable Photon Freedom that can give me tens of hours of low level light. I understand the Fenix might not be the best light for those whose AAA light is their sole carry light due to the runtime.

I would prefer that ARC made a AAA Luxeon. As a pioneer in LED flashlights they deserve to suceed and hold a big market share.


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## Solstice (Jan 19, 2006)

ledled said:


> My only dislike about the Arc AAA is it's overdriving a 5mm LED instead of under driving a luxeon. Cost issue? Arc AAA is priced high enough to cover the cost of an emitter. I've been hesitating to invest $50 in the new generation of Arc because seeing that the LED will die in a short period of time. Dorcy drives the LED even harder but I don't care if I lost $6.



I'll confess that this is also a concern of mine, even if it may not matter in a practical sense. According to chimo's tests, the Nichia loses very little brightness even after hundreds of hours being driven at 60 mA (the Arc drives it at 50 mA). Also, Peter states on the site that the light/emitter is guaranteed for life and users should feel comfortable using the light for days on end. I believe Peter is sincere in this guarantee if the LED performance is noticably suffering under normal use.


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## Raven (Jan 19, 2006)

Well, it's not fair to compare output, as a lux will always win, but a lux will also have less runtime.

I fully understand the reasoning behind a aaa, but there are those of use who prefer all our gear use the same battery type.

It's considerably easier to keep track of your batteries when they'll all the same size 

Now, if all my gear used aaa, then I'd buy an arc, but all my gear uses aa, so I'll go with fenix.

Why arc won't offer both is beyond me.

What's the old saying: "never leave money on the table".

My light collection is shaping up to be:

gerber lx3 
fenix l2p
opalec newbeam
cmg infinity ultra

I'll put new batteries in the gerber lx3, since it's unregulated, and then recycle them in the fenix l2p, and after the fenix grows too dim, I'll dump them into the newbeam.

This gets me the maximum use out of each battery, as well as covering just about any situation I'd need a light for.

And, of course, all my other gear uses aa batteries, too


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## BlackDecker (Jan 19, 2006)

I don't bother with moving used batteries from one light to another. I just recharge them


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## cratz2 (Jan 19, 2006)

ledled said:


> I think Arc AAA & Fenix L0P Complements each other. LOP is too bright for reading but it has good throw for outdoor
> while the Arc AAA is too dim for outdoor use. I carry 2 keychains anyway & putting one on each is perfect.
> 
> My only dislike about the Arc AAA is it's overdriving a 5mm LED instead of under driving a luxeon. Cost issue? Arc AAA is priced high enough to cover the cost of an emitter. I've been hesitating to invest $50 in the new generation of Arc because seeing that the LED will die in a short period of time. Dorcy drives the LED even harder but I don't care if I lost $6.



Well, just to throw out there... The current ARC AAA Premium uses the Nichia CS LED. I've been building lights using the Nichia CS run direct on 10440 and 14500 LiON cells and they pull 170 to 200 ma from fresh cells. The first such mod I did has gone through 6 entire charge cycles with a 14500 cell (at about 10 hours each and is still basically as bright as a fresh CS and the first three cycles were continuous, not intermittant. 

That is _serious_ abuse. 

I think that one were to buy a current AAA Premium and run it non stop, you would still get thousands and thousands of hours of use with the LED and I seriously doubt that you will see the LED die in a short period of time. Even only a 1,000 hour lifetime (which is seriously under estimating) would give you nearly three years of use at one hour per day.


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## greenLED (Jan 19, 2006)

JJohn said:


> Please, no flames...
> 
> Surprisingly I find that the low brightness levels get about 90% of my use.



No worries, John, we don't do that on CPF.

Being restricted to primaries will narrow your choices (which can be a good or bad thing, depending on how you look at it). 

If you find that your needs demand for high output that much of your time, then go with a Lux-based light. Using only that as criteria, the L0P sounds like the way to go for that size category. I'm not sure there are any other lights that will run a Lux off a single primary AAA like the L0P does. For my use, the ArcAAA is enough light (but I carry a separate single-celled Lux-based light for when I need more light -which is most of the time).

With more brightness, you forgo runtime, though. That's a trade-off we gotta live with. As people often say: buy both


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## colubrid (Jan 19, 2006)

Got mine today


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## colubrid (Jan 19, 2006)

http://www.fototime.com/ftweb/bin/ft.dll/standard?pictid={0E0594CA-9BF8-4241-8523-B1409BAEFBF5}&exp=f&moddt=38736.8590766435

http://www.fototime.com/ftweb/bin/ft.dll/standard?pictid={5BB910B3-24F5-4FC1-AECD-BE81C68C4FBD}&exp=f&moddt=38736.8596255208

http://www.fototime.com/ftweb/bin/ft.dll/standard?pictid={7D01357E-20BC-4F79-BC08-9E290C0B4EC3}&exp=f&moddt=38736.8600497917

http://www.fototime.com/ftweb/bin/ft.dll/standard?pictid={92DA2A03-0305-4940-8136-FD39F11A90A2}&exp=f&moddt=38736.859749213

http://www.fototime.com/ftweb/bin/ft.dll/standard?pictid={750C7008-2D38-4F48-AA8D-B439388555A0}&exp=f&moddt=38736.8599045718


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## colubrid (Jan 19, 2006)

Sorry but I have been trying to get these pics to show. When I hit the preview button it does and when I post it does not?


More Fenix and Camo ARC pics:




http://www.fototime.com/ftweb/bin/f...3A-6D90F1844B6C}&exp=f&moddt=38736.8593471875


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## colubrid (Jan 19, 2006)

One more try:


I guess I give up after this :

<img src=http://www.fototime.com/ftweb/bin/ft.dll/standard?pictid={9FFFEBC8-C05F-4C2E-9D86-F4DB5E8D7FFD}&exp=f&moddt=38736.8595000116>


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## greenLED (Jan 19, 2006)

colubrid, change your editing mode to WYSIWYG (User CP link on top bar) and click on the "image" icon (little pic) on the message editing toolbar, then enter the link.

cool pics, btw


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## colubrid (Jan 19, 2006)

*colubrid, change your editing mode to WYSIWYG (User CP link on top bar) and click on the "image" icon (little pic) on the message editing toolbar, then enter the link*

Sorry but your speaking Chinese :laughing: to me. The only thing I did was click on the little icon obove the post. The one with the mountain and the sun. Then I paste.

I don't know what you meant by the other stuff.


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## greg_in_canada (Jan 19, 2006)

Thanks for the nice photos. Does it feel noticable bigger in your pocket than the Arc?

Thanks - Greg


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## Kiessling (Jan 19, 2006)

Like this:






will give you this:

http://www.fototime.com/ftweb/bin/ft.dll/standard?pictid={9FFFEBC8-C05F-4C2E-9D86-F4DB5E8D7FFD}&exp=f&moddt=38736.8595000116

... because the address you are using isn't the address of an image.

The image has this address:

http://www.fototime.com/ftweb/bin/ft.dll/picture?PictId={9FFFEBC8-C05F-4C2E-9D86-F4DB5E8D7FFD}&size=standard

And when used with the above-described method you get:

http://www.fototime.com/ftweb/bin/ft.dll/picture?PictId={9FFFEBC8-C05F-4C2E-9D86-F4DB5E8D7FFD}&size=standard

hm ... two possibilities ... I am stupid and have no clue here (possible) ... or they do not allow hotlinking? Or? 

bernie


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## powernoodle (Jan 19, 2006)

greg_in_canada said:


> Does it feel noticable bigger in your pocket than the Arc?



To me, the L0P feels noticeably bigger than the Arc in the hand, but not in the pocket.

First things I notice about the L0P is that the HA on the threads gives somewhat of a rough feel when turning the light on and off. Like the Pelican M6 3W. It is also pretty stiff in this regard, but that will prevent accidental activation and will probably loosen over time. The cutout for the keyring is also pretty sharp - sharp enough to snag clothing or scratch skin. But it does make a lot of light, and will impress in this regard.

Overall, the Arc clearly wins in the "feel of quality" department. As for the size and runtimes, each person will have to decide what floats his or her boat. I now have 5 Fenixes (Fenii?) representing all three flavors, and probably 25 Arcs, so I'm doing my part to keep 'em both in business. :twothumbs


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## greg_in_canada (Jan 19, 2006)

Thanks powernoodle. Can you turn the L0P on and off with one hand? I do that with my Arc AAA all the time.

Thanks - Greg


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## benh (Jan 19, 2006)

My L0P and Sanyo AAAs arrived today. The Fenix is pretty small, bigger than the Arc in the hand, but very very easily pocketable. And I'm fairly pleased with the brightness of it. More than bright enough for the size, and decent throw, again for the size.

It does get a bit warm if you leave it on for extended periods of time. It's been on for about 15 minutes straight now and the entire body is warm, but not hot.

I was able to turn it on and off one handed with little problem, which is something I still can't do with my Arc. The o-ring on the Arc makes the twisty a bit too stiff yet.

Loving the Sanyo AAAs, too. All of them charged up to 1.42v on my Energizer 15 minute charger, and now I finally have an adequate supply of NIMH AAAs for my Arc, the Fenix and my assorted AAA bike lights, mostly rear blinkies. Once I burn through the rest of my primaries, it's NIMH only for me.

I can't decide if I'm more pleased with the Fenix or the batteries. 

The Fenix is light enough that it'd be easy to tape two of them to a pair of safety glasses for a makeshift headlamp.


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## powernoodle (Jan 19, 2006)

greg_in_canada said:


> powernoodle. Can you turn the L0P on and off with one hand?



I can't, but it may loosen up over time.

Edited: after applying some FP10 CLP (gun oil) and playing with while watching American Idol on tape :wow: it did loosen up enough that I can actuate it with one hand. Its very smooth now, and this heightens the subjective feel of quality which seemed to be somewhat lacking a little when I first got it. Maybe the little bit of oil that got on the o-ring helped as well.


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## thezman (Jan 19, 2006)

benh said:


> The Fenix is light enough that it'd be easy to tape two of them to a pair of safety glasses for a makeshift headlamp.


 
When you do that, make sure you come back here and post a pic. :laughing:


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## nemul (Jan 19, 2006)

hmmmm...


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## xochi (Jan 20, 2006)

cratz2 said:


> Forgive my ignorance, but do you think the HDS on the lowest setting is not appropriate for indoor use? I like the ARC and think it's surely one of a handful of 'modern classics' of flashlight design, but if I had the HDS and I always ALWAYS had it with me, I can't see the need for the ARC AAA.



Cratz, I was in the very position you speak of and yet 95% of my needs were met by the itty bitty Arc. The HDS started to feel like dead weight. Granted, the HDS EDC is the light I'd want with me if I fell off a truck in the middle of the rocky mtn's or some desert but at home in suburbia, the ARC was just easier to live with. When I worked as an electrician I couldn't have said that since the job often required good throw to trace conduit above drop ceilings as well as lower level flood while working at device boxes.

The recent posts of the L0p's runtimes illuminate the character of this light as something very different than the Arc. The L0P is a poor performer with alkaline AAA's but seems to be a sweet performer on nimh's and likely lithiums. As an edc, the quality of the L0P's illumination is more versatile and pleasing (for most folks) than the Arc but the L0p's short runtime certainly will place additional feeding demands on the user. I tend to believe that the experience of using the fenix will be superior to the arc at least until the time when one really needs light and has only a fenix with a dead battery. Honestly, if I had both, I'd carry both. The arc would stay on the keychain as a backup to the fenix which I'd keep in a pocket. Picking one over the other is definately hard and once the Peak has a AAA offering with a luxeon I think Arc will have to respond or feel the impact, to some degree, on the bottom line.


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## Peter Atwood (Jan 20, 2006)

All I can say is Damn! Great little light. How are these guys doing it is what I want to know...I've had quite a few AAA, N cell and CR2 lights and this one beats them all hands down as far as brightness and overall beam quality. However, I would hasten to add that I will still rotate my carry between many of the other fine lights in this category that I own because no light really has it all yet. 

I bought three of them because I have often had a nasty tendency to lose the luxeon lottery in the past. I figured with three I'd have a chance of getting at least one good one. Sure enough, one was tinged a tiny bit green and another had very tight threads. One was just right in terms of color and ease of turning on the head. 

Highly highly highly recommended.


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## Yooper (Jan 20, 2006)

I can't comment on the Arc yet, as my AAA-P hasn't arrived yet, but the L0P blows me away. I'm keeping a Lighthound clone on my keychain as a backup, because it is so small and lightweight....

When my Arc arrives I'll post beamshots...


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## Lebkuecher (Jan 20, 2006)

This should help you compare the new Arc and the LOP. The choice as I see it is between a little whiter, brighter and larger VS smaller, slight blue tint and considerable run time. 

I like both but will still EDC the Arc on my keychain mainly due to runtime. My recommendation is to buy both.

Comparative Beam Shots

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a328/slebkuecher/IMG_0502.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a328/slebkuecher/IMG_0496.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a328/slebkuecher/IMG_0492.jpg

Object on my left is my car
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a328/slebkuecher/IMG_0504.jpg



Comparative Size

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a328/slebkuecher/IMG_0478.jpg

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a328/slebkuecher/IMG_0482.jpg


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## Kiessling (Jan 20, 2006)

Thanx for the pics !
Well ... it doesn't look like a hell more light coming out of the L0P considering the loss in runtime and the crappy regulation on alkalines.
On the other hand ... the Arc is blue and overdriving the LED like hell ... so, in my book, both are far from optimal.

bernie

P.S.: what cell did you use in your L0P?


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## Lebkuecher (Jan 20, 2006)

bernie

The battery I used is the Sanyo it shipped with.


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## chimo (Jan 20, 2006)

Kiessling said:


> Thanx for the pics !
> Well ... it doesn't look like a hell more light coming out of the L0P considering the loss in runtime and the crappy regulation on alkalines.



That's just what I was thinking!


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## cave dave (Jan 20, 2006)

I didn't realize people wanted an ARC AAAv4 vs LOP beamshot otherwise I would have posted one last night. Honestly I think they are in a differnt class / different purposes. I think ARC is the effieciency king. CS LEDs are the Lumens/watt leader. And generally bright enough for most tasks and works very well on Alks. The LOP is brighter, whiter, and smoother but lasts an hour and really need Li or NiMh to perform well. The Arc is quite a bit brighter than the LOP after an hour and a half and keeps on chugging for several more hours. Both seem to be the same size on my keychain and I'm super sensitive. 

Gransee, you should check out the LOP, the reflector does and amazing job for being so small. I would have never have thunk it without seeing for myself.

Arc (latest version) on the left and LOP on the right. Both on new Lithiums.





err, what was that CPF motto again. Oh ya : "Buy Both!"


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## greg_in_canada (Jan 21, 2006)

benh said:


> Loving the Sanyo AAAs, too. All of them charged up to 1.42v on my Energizer 15 minute charger, and now I finally have an adequate supply of NIMH AAAs for my Arc, the Fenix and my assorted AAA bike lights, mostly rear blinkies. Once I burn through the rest of my primaries, it's NIMH only for me.


 
Is that safe for the Sanyo cell? I thought the 15 minute charger was only for special cells that have an internal pressure switch that cuts off charging when they are fully charged. Or is there more than one type of 15 minute charger?

Greg


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## Planterz (Jan 21, 2006)

I'm really liking my Fenix L0P, and prefer it over my Arc AAA-P. It's nice and bright, but not too bright that it blinds me if I'm trying to read something up close. It's bigger, but on my keychain with all my keys and other gadgets, the extra size isn't noticed. The anodization held up better than I expected it to. I was expecting chips and scratches, after reading all the complaints of the L1P's finish (my L1P just sits around and looks nice). The copper (?) would leave marks on the L0P, but these simply wiped off. The only actual marred finish is where the spit ring is, but my Arc has bare Al there too.

The thing I like about the most about the L0P really has nothing to do with brightness, runtime, size, or anything like that. And that is the lens. I make pizzas for a living, so I'm swimming in flour. There's flour in my knives, there's flour in my wallet, there's even flour in my keyboard at home. That crap gets everywhere. But especially in my pockets. Which means I was constantly cleaning the flour out of the reflector of my Arc. No more!

So the L0P has successfully usurped the Arc off of my keychain, something that I never expected to happen. 

Your move, Peak.


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## Yooper (Jan 21, 2006)

cave dave's photos are a little better representation of real life than Lebkuecher's. The spill beam on the L0P is very wide and bright and this makes it very useful.


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## Lebkuecher (Jan 21, 2006)

Yooper said:


> cave dave's photos are a little better representation of real life than Lekbuecher's. The spill beam on the L0P is very wide and bright and this makes it very useful.



A agree with this, cave dave’s photo do a much better job showing the difference in what you can expect with the side spill with a new battery. I am somewhat surprised by the amount of side spill that the LOP has. I’m not sure if this info will help anyone but my pictures were taken with a Cannon SD 500 Power Shot set at 640*480 and set at fine


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## fleegs (Jan 21, 2006)

So I have been using my L0P for a while now. I like it better than the Arc AAA Rev4. Mainly because it tail stands and I do not need a long running light (I EDC the McLux PD). What a great flashlight this L0P is. I do wish it was cheaper so I could buy everyone I know one. Tell you the truth I think the L0P and Arc AAA are very different lights. However, I do not think you need both. If you need tail standing then get the L0P. Actually get the L0P so Peter can focus on making other flashlights.  



Thanks,
Rob

 :touche: :buddies: These don't mean anything. My daughter requested them while I was writing this


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## chrisse242 (Jan 21, 2006)

Planterz said:


> I was expecting chips and scratches, after reading all the complaints of the L1P's finish (my L1P just sits around and looks nice). The copper (?) would leave marks on the L0P, but these simply wiped off. The only actual marred finish is where the spit ring is, but my Arc has bare Al there too.



I think these complaints are a cpf myth. I have only seen two confirmed cases of the fenix annodizing getting scratched. The first one was Cy's after he scratched through the annodizing with a knife. The second one was mine, after I hit it with a dremel grinding tool. Other than that and the scratches around the lanyard holes, my fenix is still looking perfect and it has seen some abuse... I'd like to see another light (annodized black) that can hold up to a knife tip or a dremel....

Chrisse


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## Kiessling (Jan 21, 2006)

Not a myth. Mine scratched fairly easily and I see bare al from almost no impact ... it just fell over on another flashlight (McLuxIII-T) which was lying next to it.
bernie


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## xochi (Jan 21, 2006)

I've got to disagree with you on the Fenix Ano, Chrisse. I pocket carry a modded fenix and I don't baby it, meaning I carry it in my pocket with other things. While I will say that the finish is relatively durable, pocket carry has easily scratched it up and I'm inclined to believe that if it really is hard ano it is extremely thin . But , honestly, if you've seen a scratch in the ano on a fenix and a scratch on other HA lights the insubstantial ano on the fenix is readily apparent.


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## liquidsix (Jan 21, 2006)

Hmm, great beam shot of the Arc and Fenix. The Fenix is [obviously] brighter, especially in its hot spot, but I didn't expect the arc to be so bright in comparison. I thought it'd be much dimmer. 

As for the Anodized finish, I know this is going to seem stupid but: If there're scratches in my light I kind of like it because it means it's being used and was a justified purchase. Mind you this is a keychain light so it's a bit of a downer that it's probably going to look like old crap after being in my pocket with keys and a multitool for a month.


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## paulr (Jan 21, 2006)

Another issue about the scratches: who cares? From my pre-flashaholic days I still have my old Minimag and M*g Solitaire. They are covered with scratches but the scratches don't make the lights look bad at all. They just make them look well-travelled.


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## GhostReaction (Jan 22, 2006)

Not sure if anyone had noticed, IMHO it does seem to me that the new L0p have a better 
HA finish than L1p. All my ARC still hold their finish well but hey.... theres a new king of pocket light!


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## Lit Up (Jan 22, 2006)

Scratches just give 'em character and makes them easier to identify.


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## chrisse242 (Jan 22, 2006)

Seems like I stand corrected. I will still say that the finish on my Fenix is excellent, maybe there are variations in quality?

Chrisse


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## parnass (Jan 22, 2006)

If you are concerned about scratching the finish, install a short length of *heat shrink tubing* over the body of the flashlight.


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## cave dave (Jan 22, 2006)

Might that not interfere with heat transfer away from the LED?


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## BentHeadTX (Jan 22, 2006)

My L1P has finish damage from my using a hose clamp to attach it to my bicycle helmet mount. Not that I really care as it is not meant to be pretty but Peak uses much better HA-III and Arc's HA-III is the best. The only time I care about the finish on a light is when it is used in harsh condtions. A keychain banging away at the finish counts as harsh in my book so I will pay extra for better HA-III. 

Since my two L1Ps (and MillerMods L1P when received will make it three) they are used as bicycle lighting so the finish is not a problem. If the L0P is not used on a keychain, it's finish should hold up fine. Don't want to put heat shrink on the thing as it needs to stay cool.


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## liquidsix (Feb 10, 2006)

Well I went with the CPF moto and bought both. Now I have to decide which wins the spot on my keychain, and now hat I have them both it's a harder decission than I thought. Everybody's right, they are 2 completely different tools. For size, the arc wins for sure. For tint, the fenix wins -> the arc is very blue. For output it doesn't seem like the fenix really wins by all that much, but enough to make the next category a tougher choice. Do I go for the longer runtime, something reliable that will seem as if it will always be good and never have to worry about dying batteries? Or the shorter runtime with the nicer looking higher output? Is 50 minutes to %50 actually a long time for a keychain light? hmmm. I had a keymate for about a year and it was used as a backup when my strion died. I'd say it must have gotten almost 2 hours of use the whole time I had it so maybe 50 minutes isn't so bad? However most of those 2 hours where while it was being the backup for a dead strion while camping... argh! 

Well I guess it comes down to if I can stand carrying the fenix in my pocket over the arc, and then taking the appropriate light for different outtings.

I think this thread was a terrible idea. These are two incomparable lights. Maybe the Peack Pacific will be a nice compromise but that thing has a huge head.


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## this_is_nascar (Feb 10, 2006)

It comes down to the reason(s) you even carry a light on your keychain. For me, the Arc-AAA is the clear winner becuase of runtime and size. Sure, I wish the beam looked like a Lux-III, but it doesn't. I can deal with that for my purposes. For me, I asked myself, if this was the only light I had with me at the time and I was caught in a building due to disaster or attack, which of these 2-lights would I want to have. The choice was quite simple. I have no desire to carry a light that can't even get 1-hour from a non-rechargable cell.


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## liquidsix (Feb 10, 2006)

Okay, I only needed half a day to decide. Once it got dark it was obvious who the clear winner was: Arc Premium! After trying them both out around my house for a little while I've decided that the fenix l0p isn't that much brighter than the arc. It has a nicer tint, (and arguably nicer looking body) but it's size, and unreliable runtime (I like how I can play with the arc all I want and not worry about the battery) means it loses it's spot on my keychain. 

Now all I have to do is find someone who will buy my Fenix L0p from me, or keep it as a backup.


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## nightshade (Feb 10, 2006)

Awaiting the Arc AAA vs. Peak Beam Maxabeam review...  :naughty:


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## cave dave (Feb 11, 2006)

Last weekend I went on Ski Trip with friends, we had three cars. The lead car got a flat tire. Flat tire car had no flashlight at all. The owner of the car I was riding in pulled out a plastic 2D flashlight. It produced light for about 5min before it went dead. I reachead into my bags and handed a Tikka XP headlamp to the guy fixing the flat, a LOP to the person directing traffic around the car and I was using the ArcAAAP on my keychain to walk around and help out where I could. All had freshly charged batteries.
The Tikka XP wins in brightness and usefulness, Its hard to change a flat with a flashlight in your mouth.

There wasn't nearly as much difference in usefulness between the ArcAAA and L0P in the real world as one would think based on shining them against a white wall. The spill beams seemed very similar against the road. The center tint on the ARC is noticably bluer, but it doesn't matter much in the real world. Your eyes adapt to what light it has available. The whole thing took less than an hour. I could point out that the ARC had 5 good hours of life left. Not sure about useful life left in the L0P (less than an hour I suppose), but then again I had 5 more fully charged Sanyo 900Mah in my bag and another in my Mp3 player. If I had been driving my car I could have pulled out another headlamp and about 4 more flashlights, including 60Lumens of G2 goodness.

Cave "Carry Both" Dave


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## xochi (Feb 11, 2006)

Arc runtime makes it a no brainer for me and the tint of the nichias is getting pretty good. "Angry Blue" just doesn't apply for the co's at least, yeah there is a very small bit of blue in the center but the vast majority of the beam is pretty warm and does well with color. I believe the biggest factor to folks complaining about the nichias is that within the beam there are clear color variations that contrast each other. With the color consistency of many other LEDs, there isn't anything to contrast the color of the beam with unless another light is compared with it. This gives us the impression that the beam is whiter than it really is and I've used other LEDs that although they appear white, they emit such a limited spectrum that color rendition and depth are pretty bad. This includes some luxeons. I'm not saying that the L0P isn't clearly brighter and tinted better, I'm just saying that in actualy use, the tint of the Arc is a quality tint, just inconsistent across the beam.


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## Freedom1955 (Feb 11, 2006)

When Arc eliminates the blue beam I'll sell the Lop and buy the ArcAAA.


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## this_is_nascar (Feb 11, 2006)

Freedom1955 said:


> When Arc eliminates the blue beam I'll sell the Lop and buy the ArcAAA.



I'm not sure which version of the Arc4-AAA that you're using, but the most recent ones are certainly using a different LED. The blue tint is much less pronouced. By sight, this appears the same LED that the new 2X-Brighter Photon Freedoms are using.


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## Lumenz (Feb 12, 2006)

The Arc-P that I purchased last month actually has a yellow tint to it, not a blue tint. It is by far my favorite flashlight. I also have the L0P, Matterhorn 1 LED and Matterhorn 3 LED. The Matterhorns are definitely bluer than the Arc. The L0P is the whitest and brightest I have, but the battery life bothers me somewhat so I do not EDC it as I do the Arc-P.


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## [email protected] Messenger (Feb 12, 2006)

You should suggest to Peter Gransee to try and get nichia LEDs of that tint instead of the bluer ones. In most cases, the peak lights are actually supposed to be much whiter than the nomal arcs. Looks like you got an oddity(not that that's bad or anything).


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## Blindspot (Feb 16, 2006)

Finbar said:


> As far as automobiles...ask a Rolls Royce owner. I think you will find the answers you seek.
> Fin



Hey - You're a funny guy! It just so happens that I am a Rolls Royce owner, and let me tell you - this thing is the most useless bucket of junk I have ever had the displeasure of trying to drive. It spends most of its time in the shop. Fortunately it is never lonely - the local Rolls service department is jammed with other Rolls in for repairs. Funny - the Lexus dealer right next door has the quietest service department I have ever seen. 

But on another topic - I have an ARC-P and I think it is a great light. I also have a Fenix L2P and I think it is a Great light too. There are so many lights to choose from, and so little time. Sorry - Gotta run. I smell smoke coming from the garage -- "Honey - you didn't leave the key on in the Bentley, did you?!" :laughing:


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## Krit (Feb 16, 2006)

Arc AAA is make a good close up work for me. I thinks L0P is rather too bright for my close up work in total dark.


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## johnstrong (Oct 31, 2006)

FYI


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## Ledacholic Anonymous (Oct 31, 2006)

At the end of the day, every flashaholic should have an Arc AAA-P!!! If you don't, you will continue to wonder what it would be like to have an Arc.


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## whippoorwill (Oct 31, 2006)

I have both the L0P and the Arc AAA-P. Different lights, different uses. Both are extremely well made and fulfill their intended purpose. The L0P has more of a wow factor, but the Arc is the reliable plodder.

Cannot go wrong with either, but the old adage about not hooking up a racehorse to a plow and not trying to race a plowhorse is very appropriate.


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## Badbeams3 (Oct 31, 2006)

I see the Fenix "dart" as the plow horse. The L0P as the race horse. And the Arc as the horse headed for the glue factory.

Ken


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## TORCH_BOY (Oct 31, 2006)

Two complete different puppies, the Arc AAA Premium would be better stacked up against the Fenix E0, both are goood lights with the fenix E0 having better regulation and runtime


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## Ledacholic Anonymous (Oct 31, 2006)

TORCH_BOY said:


> Two complete different puppies, the Arc AAA Premium would be better stacked up against the Fenix E0, both are goood lights with the fenix E0 having better regulation and runtime



Hmm, grant that the Arc AAA-P is brighter and a few steps above the E0 in term of quality (both material and workmanship).

The problem with the Arc is that I am afraid of scratching it. It is a shelf queen at the moment. I need to get over this hurdle and start carrying it more. I can also reason myself not to carry it as I have the E0, LOP, & LOPSe as well .


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## Anarchocap (Oct 31, 2006)

johnstrong said:


> FYI


Why revive this thread after 9 months and then post a pic that had nothing to do with the original thread?


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## bnderan (Oct 31, 2006)

I've never handled a Fenix, so can't comment.

I do have a new Arc AAA-P courtesy of the ARC's excellent service department. I went from being a bit disappointed with my old Arc-AAA to truly impressed with the new one. It's extremely handy to me as an IT guy, working in poorly lit data centers and telecom rooms:candle:. It's the perfect keychain companion for my Leatherman Juice S2.


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## partipilo (Nov 8, 2006)

I think they are each intended for different uses. I carry an ARC-P and a L0P on my keychain every day. Using Energizer E2 Lithiums in them, their weight is negligible. They have different purposes. The ARC-P is really bright for a 5mm and runs for a very long time. The few times I need a bit more boost, I fire up the L0P, though it chews thru batteries (which is another reason I chose E2 Lithiums).


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## Mike89 (Nov 11, 2006)

I guess it's just what kind of application one is looking for. For me, it's about light plain and simple. I don't care how the beamshots look. Beamshot are very deceiving compared to real world. Go into a dark room, turn on the arc, then turn on the L0P. The difference is not subtle. The difference is astounding. The L0P puts out so much more light that I just look at the arc and say, "you got to be kidding". 


If dim is good enough and you want the long runtime, then the arc is fine. For me, dim is not good, I don't care how long it lasts.

The Arc light definitely has a following, I'll say that. Say anything bad about it and 30 guys come rushing in to tear your throat out. Heh heh.

Gimme the L0P, you guys can keep the Arc. I just have no use for it. I'd take any of the Fenix AAA lights as all of them are brighter than the Arc, but the L0P is the brightest of the bunch by a long shot.


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## jayflash (Nov 11, 2006)

Of my three Arc AAAs, the best one is close but not quite as bright as my particular LOP. The LOP has a better beam but for me they are back-up lights and with a lithium cell in the Arc, several hours of light can be expected. My Arcs have survived several front-load washer and dryer cycles and survived water tight. I haven't abused the LOP in this manner, yet.

They both fit in the "watch" (change?) pocket of jeans so either one can, virtually, disappear. Sometimes I'll choose the LOP for its superior beam and output. I like them equally, but for different reasons.


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## TENMMIKE (Nov 11, 2006)

LOL are you kidding me?my arc iv carried for about 10 months straight , about 10 days ago i added a l0p se, in the span of 3 (yes three)days it is already more worn then the arc .. now after that time 10-days 2 weeks or so on the same key chain ,next to each other only seperated by my cr123 batt holder it is now much more worn, how the hell are you gonna scratch it in a manner that would in real life not be 10 times worse on a fenix?


Ledacholic Anonymous said:


> Hmm, grant that the Arc AAA-P is brighter and a few steps above the E0 in term of quality (both material and workmanship).
> 
> The problem with the Arc is that I am afraid of scratching it. It is a shelf queen at the moment. I need to get over this hurdle and start carrying it more. I can also reason myself not to carry it as I have the E0, LOP, & LOPSe as well .


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## TENMMIKE (Nov 11, 2006)

yep but it only runs for less then1.5 hrs before the arc catches it , i played this game last winter when my power was out for several days , i wrote down the time each of my lights did and what i used them ,peak was also in the picture along with my gladius , various surefires, i wasn't picking on any brand just what i saw , i sold the Matterhorn and the fenix right after as to me they were useless if they cant survive a few hrs, the arc did, and since iv add mm mod and its even better if you pick your drive levels right, after 1 hr i looked at the l0p and said " well nice little light for a hr, it was near worthless after that, in fact i dug up my notes from that night , i wrote 

E1L 1hr 45 min still a good light /usable
1hr 30 min lop light ..fair, matt ( i ment matterhorn) same
1hr 30 min arc good still good
at the1hr 15 min or so the arc is so far ahead of lop as there is no comparison at all.(i added that a few hrs after the actual event to reinforce the time frame and the fact that i may have been off by 5-10 minutes. 
3hrs arc still kickinass .....lop poop
that is exactly how i wrote it down other then leaving my gladius remarks out, I'm not sure when it was but i posted it here and i hadn't been here long and had not developed a tendency toward any light other then the gladius



Mike89 said:


> I guess it's just what kind of application one is looking for. For me, it's about light plain and simple. I don't care how the beamshots look. Beamshot are very deceiving compared to real world. Go into a dark room, turn on the arc, then turn on the L0P. The difference is not subtle. The difference is astounding. The L0P puts out so much more light that I just look at the arc and say, "you got to be kidding".
> 
> 
> If dim is good enough and you want the long runtime, then the arc is fine. For me, dim is not good, I don't care how long it lasts.
> ...


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