# How to make XPG throw further than XRE? Use a better Collimation! - A DEFT Clone Exp.



## ma_sha1 (Mar 7, 2010)

XPG has a Surface area 2x of XRE, in most cases, one would not be able to achieve more throw with XPG, especially in same size flashlight. *The experiment below will be comparing XRE R2 vs. XPG R5, they may be shorted as "R2" & "R5" respectively. *

This experiment used a DEFT Clone, the DX Shower head host with a 68mm head (~2.7 inch). It look like DEFT, except that DEFT host is even bigger (80mm head), which is too big for my liking & also only available in Black (Also from DX) & I like the bare Alu. version better. So, I decided to go with this DEFT little brother as start. 

Left to Right:

Mag 1C, Mag 1C Clone, DEFT Clone/DEFT Jr., Mag 2C. 






This is a size half way between mag & DEFT. I was able to fit a much larger Aspherical lens from DX: 13618. 66mm lens. 
I had to grind down the edge of the lens to make it go in, not too bad, 15-20min job on a mini grinder. 
Here is how it looked next Mag bezel: 










The most challenging part is the lack of space above the switch, there's only 10mm space, in order to get the LED to the focal point of this big lens with longer focal point, I had to: 
1. Grind open the inside of Bezel opening, to push the lens out by 2mm or so.
2. Make a Copper "Reverse Heat sink', kind like a copper cup to hold the LED inside & deep, pretty much sitting on top of the switch. I used XPG R5 on 14mm board from Kai & glued down with thermo adhesive. 

The heat sink is made by two pieces: a bottom copper disk & a copper tube section, they are soldered together & then further grind down to fit tight above the switch with Thermo paste between the Heat sink Cup & the flashlight. 







Because the lack of space, there is NO room for any driver. 
Luckily, the flashlight comes with a 4AA battery holder. So I hardwired one 
location to turn it into a 3AA holder. Now the finished light is ready for testing:
(Note, the switch is a 3 position switch, I am only using on/off function, so the way it works now is On/off/off/On,
instead of on/off/on/off, not a big deal)

In between the Mags, Left is Mag 1C clone with 50mm Aspehrical, XRE R2 driven to 1Amp. 
Right DEFT Jr. with 66mm Aspherical lens, XPG R5, Direct Drive on 3AA Ultimate Lithium 1.75V batteries. 





Beam shots are: Left = XRE R2, Right = XPG R5, Distance is about 20 ft. 
The Cat at the left doesn't like me right now, as I shined in her eyes & temporarily blinded her :shakehead






Same as above, just reduced exposure so you can tell the spot brightness apart. 
You can see that the bigger lens was able to colinmate the XPG R5 to a spot smaller than the XRE R2 spot (Which is already tiny). Also, the XPG spot is noticibly brighter than the XRE spot, therefore will achieve further throw! 






I've also tested it with 3AA Eneloop NIMN & 3AAA Alk. batteries, 
both worked similarly & both are very bright, but the Ultimate Lithium AA is noticibly brighter than both.


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## ti-force (Mar 7, 2010)

*Re: How to make XPG throw further than XRE -- A DEFT Clone Experiment*

I'd like two dog buiscuits and some pepper please:nana:.


Hahaha.... Just kidding. On a serious note, nice work:thumbsup: as usual.


Casey


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## ma_sha1 (Mar 7, 2010)

*Re: How to make XPG throw further than XRE -- A DEFT Clone With Better Collimation*



ti-force said:


> I'd like two dog buiscuits and some pepper please:nana:.
> 
> 
> Hahaha.... Just kidding. On a serious note, nice work:thumbsup: as usual.
> ...




Thanks!

I'll include some free dog buiscuits with pepper if I decide to sell the build later on BST.


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## TorchBoy (Mar 7, 2010)

*Re: How to make XPG throw further than XRE -- A DEFT Clone Experiment*



ma_sha1 said:


> Beam shots are: Left = R2, Right = XPG R5, Distance is about 20 ft.


Have you seen Carrot's thread "Stop referring to LEDs by their bin code"? 

Apart from that, you've rather effectively proved everyone wrong who said the XP-G will never throw better than the XR-E. Well done.

Edit: Hm, what sort of current is that XP-G drawing?


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## Th232 (Mar 7, 2010)

*Re: How to make XPG throw further than XRE -- A DEFT Clone Experiment*

Unless I'm missing something, you're putting a smaller lens over the XR-E than the one over the XP-G and then saying that the XP-G can throw further. I fail to see how that proves that the XP-G can throw further, given the inequalities in the setups. What happens if you swap the LEDs? I suspect that if you did that, the XR-E would have a smaller and brighter spot than the XP-G in that setup.

Don't get me wrong, it's good work, but I'm just not sure how valid this is.


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## ma_sha1 (Mar 7, 2010)

*Re: How to make XPG throw further than XRE -- A DEFT Clone Experiment*



TorchBoy said:


> Have you seen Carrot's thread "Stop referring to LEDs by their bin code"?
> 
> Apart from that, you've rather effectively proved everyone wrong who said the XP-G will never throw better than the XR-E. Well done.
> 
> Edit: Hm, what sort of current is that XP-G drawing?



Thanks, I don't know the current, actually, I can't even measure the tail cap
AMP even if I have an amp meter. The battery carrier have both positive & negative on the same end.


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## ma_sha1 (Mar 7, 2010)

*Re: How to make XPG throw further than XRE -- A DEFT Clone Experiment*



Th232 said:


> Unless I'm missing something, you're putting a smaller lens over the XR-E than the one over the XP-G and then saying that the XP-G can throw further. I fail to see how that proves that the XP-G can throw further, given the inequalities in the setups. What happens if you swap the LEDs? I suspect that if you did that, the XR-E would have a smaller and brighter spot than the XP-G in that setup.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, it's good work, but I'm just not sure how valid this is.



I am not trying to say XPG will always throw further, in fact, my opening line indicated that one would not throw further with XPG than XRE if everyting being equal. 

To make a XPG light throw further than a particular XRE light, one just need to kick it up a notch.

Throw of led light is a combination of *LED* *Surface brightness* + *Collimation*.
XPG (2mm die area) driven to 500 lumen will have the same surface brightness as XRE (1mm die area) driven to 250 lumen. Once you match the surface brightness, then put a better collimation system on the XPG, you can beat any particular XRE thrower you set as target, but it doesn't mean another light can not be built & improved based on XRE & come back to beat the particular XPG light.


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## Th232 (Mar 7, 2010)

*Re: How to make XPG throw further than XRE -- A DEFT Clone Experiment*



ma_sha1 said:


> I am not trying to say XPG will always throw further, in fact, my opening line indicated that one would not throw further with XPG than XRE if every ting being equal.
> 
> To make a XPG light throw further than a particular XRE light, one just need to kick it up a notch.



My apologies, when I read your first line:



> XPG has a Surface area 2x of XRE, in most cases, one would not be able to achieve more throw with XPG, especially in same size flashlight.



I must have been reading it differently to how you intended. I suspect several others were also under that impression, thank you for the clarification.


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## tx101 (Mar 8, 2010)

*Re: How to make XPG throw further than XRE -- A DEFT Clone Experiment*

Very nice ..... :thumbsup:

The projected beam looks a lot better than the XRE, a nice square blob 
Looking at your comparsion photos, it looks as if the XPG beam has none
of the rainbow rings that the XRE normally has.


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## ma_sha1 (Mar 8, 2010)

*Re: How to make XPG throw further than XRE -- A DEFT Clone Experiment*



tx101 said:


> Very nice ..... :thumbsup:
> 
> The projected beam looks a lot better than the XRE, a nice square blob
> Looking at your comparsion photos, it looks as if the XPG beam has none
> of the rainbow rings that the XRE normally has.



Thanks tx101. I like the square blob better as well, it doesn't have the 
"battery button top" look of the XRE die, which would look annoying if you have "button top" upside down or side ways. 

Also with "less rings", perhaps due to XPG doesn't have a metal ring around the die so it looks cleaner? 

Overall, this is a pleasing spot, I wonder What if I drive it with 1 C Li-ion
DD? The current will probably pump up to 2-2.5 Amp range, I think
the XPG with copper cup sink can handle it. 

Imagine over 500 lumens pumped into a spot smaller than XRE Aspehrical

It will not out throw the DEFT which has even bigger lens, but probably out-throw just about any other LED light except DEFT?


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## Hill (Mar 8, 2010)

*Re: How to make XPG throw further than XRE -- A DEFT Clone Experiment*

ma_sha1,

Nice work as always. I very much enjoy your custom work and creativity!! 

A little off topic here, but I am trying to get my hands on some newer Ledil optics (regina/tina) for use in a multi XPG build. It certainly won't compete with your current DEFT clone, but I'm hoping to get better throw than what is currently available. Perhaps some smaller (~18-20mm) custom aspherics would do the trick for multi XPG mods (like Led Zep's black dog here).


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## Kid9P (Mar 8, 2010)

*Re: How to make XPG throw further than XRE -- A DEFT Clone Experiment*

Ma_Sha,

If you ever make these available, I'd love one especially in an 18650x2 format :twothumbs

Great Work!

Ray


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## ma_sha1 (Mar 8, 2010)

*Re: How to make XPG throw further than XRE -- A DEFT Clone Experiment*

Thanks!

I made a 3x XPG on LXP Optics, it throw better than P7 but not as far as SSR-50 on 5 Amp(SSR-50 on 5 AMP had almost mag85 level of throw). 

Usually, multi Aspherical will throw further than Multi Reflector of same diameter, but it's a pain to align the spot up thou. 




Hill said:


> ma_sha1,
> 
> Nice work as always. I very much enjoy your custom work and creativity!!
> 
> A little off topic here, but I am trying to get my hands on some newer Ledil optics (regina/tina) for use in a multi XPG build. It certainly won't compete with your current DEFT clone, but I'm hoping to get better throw than what is currently available. Perhaps some smaller (~18-20mm) custom aspherics would do the trick for multi XPG mods (like Led Zep's black dog here).


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## ma_sha1 (Mar 8, 2010)

*Re: How to make XPG throw further than XRE -- A DEFT Clone Experiment*



Kid9P said:


> Ma_Sha,
> 
> If you ever make these available, I'd love one especially in an 18650x2 format :twothumbs
> 
> ...




Thanks! I don't do custom runs, just make lights for fun. Too many ideas, too little time. Although I do end up selling just about everything I make, it seems the coolest ideas can only be the next ideas. 

This host will not fit 2x18650. However, if you take a Silver Mag 2C head & grind down the head, you can make an adaptor for this "Turbo head" to go on Mag 2C & the run 2x18650 from there. Lots of lots of grinding thou


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## tx101 (Mar 8, 2010)

*Re: How to make XPG throw further than XRE -- A DEFT Clone Experiment*



ma_sha1 said:


> Thanks tx101. *I like the square blob better as well, it doesn't have the
> "battery button top" look of the XRE die, which would look annoying if you have "button top" upside down or side ways. *
> 
> Also with "less rings", perhaps due to XPG doesn't have a metal ring around the die so it looks cleaner?
> ...




Couldnt agree with you more on that :thumbsup:

I think your right on the metal ring around the die :twothumbs

I'm tempted to junk my XRE in my Mag 2C aspheric and replace it with
a XPG now


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## mudman cj (Mar 8, 2010)

*Re: How to make XPG throw further than XRE -- A DEFT Clone Experiment*

I agree that the thread title is misleading. How would you feel about a title change? You have reason to be proud of your build, but misleading titles just cause confusion. The new title should not imply that the XPG will throw further than the XRE all else equal. I'm just waiting for Saabluster to chime in on this thread. 

Aside from that though, I am a fan of your work and this is a really nice build you have here. Well done. :thumbsup:


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## ma_sha1 (Mar 8, 2010)

*Re: How to make XPG throw further than XRE -- A DEFT Clone Experiment*

Thanks!

I have changed the title, I hope everyone is happy now 

To me the title was fine, it makes a point across that because LED is one of the two key factors in throw, (not the only factor) to make one throw further than the other, you just need to make a better collimation system. 

I am having a hard time coming up with a short title to deliver the same message. I think "Miss leading" has more to do with the XPG/XRE/Throw subject matter, rather than the title itself. Plus, anyone who read the first sentence would realize the clear intentions I have.

Anyways, for now, I added "better collimation" to the title to avoid being viewed as "XPG throw better XRE period" :sigh:


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## ma_sha1 (Mar 8, 2010)

*Re: How to make XPG throw further than XRE - A DEFT Clone With Better Collimation*

*The title now reads:
*
"How to make XPG throw further than XRE - A DEFT Clone With Better Collimation"


I hope now it won't make people think that I am claiming a better collimation than DEFT, as I am not.


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## saabluster (Mar 8, 2010)

*Re: How to make XPG throw further than XRE - A DEFT Clone With Better Collimation*

I have to agree with Muddy. I know _you_ know that the XR-E will always out throw the XP-G when used with the same optic setup but the title leads people down a wrong path from the get-go. The evidence of this is in the response already seen in this thread. A judicious change to the title of this thread will help keep it on track and avoid throwing off the less informed. Thanks!


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## ma_sha1 (Mar 8, 2010)

*Re: How to make XPG throw further than XRE - A DEFT Clone With Better Collimation*

Saab,

You must made the post while I was changing the title, does the new title make it clear enough?


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## saabluster (Mar 8, 2010)

*Re: How to make XPG throw further than XRE - A DEFT Clone With Better Collimation*



ma_sha1 said:


> *The title now reads:
> *
> "How to make XPG throw further than XRE - A DEFT Clone With Better Collimation"
> 
> ...


Hmm..actually I never even took it that way. But the new title does make me think that so I think it has actually gotten worse. The problem with the original title is it leads people to think that the XP-G has more throw potential than the XR-E. This is not the case.


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## ma_sha1 (Mar 8, 2010)

OK, my last attempt, I have maxed out the Title Character count :hairpull:

*The New Title:*

"How to make XPG throw further than XRE? Use a better Collimation! - A DEFT Clone Exp."

.
.


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## parnell (Mar 28, 2010)

Very nice build. 

If the switch assembly is the same as the Deft host, there is a way to mount a driver. The plastic housing that holds the switch is void of any purpose opposite the switch. You can remove some material there and a 17mm driver will slip in nicely.


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## ma_sha1 (Mar 29, 2010)

Thanks, I did take one of the switch apart, actually the smaller one with 50mm lens, and put a 1 Amp driver in the back of the switch.

But I wasn't happy with the switch itself. I just upgraded the smaller light with R2 from 1 Amp to 1.5 Amp by converting from 4AAA/1 Amp driver to 
1 C Li-ion with 8x2 Ohm Resistors in parallel. (Without the resistors, it measures over 2 Amp).

The 8 small resistors are hidden in the tail cap. 






I also upgraded the heat sink & then potted with Thermo Glue, finished with a GITD plate.





It's hard to tell here, but the R2/50mm lens spot now is slightly brighter then the R5/66mm lens.





I plan to beef up the 66mm one as well, probably push the XPG R5 to 2 Amp. After that, I'll have to make a bigger one, here is a sneak preview:

From left to Right: 
50mm (Mag size), 66mm (Deft Jr.) & 3" (Deft) Aspherical Head


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## TorchBoy (Mar 30, 2010)

TorchBoy said:


> Have you seen Carrot's thread "Stop referring to LEDs by their bin code"?





ma_sha1 said:


> I just upgraded the smaller light with R2 ... It's hard to tell here, but the R2/50mm lens spot now is slightly brighter then the R5/66mm lens.


You're an inspiration for would-be (wanna-be?) throwers, but you sure don't make it easy to follow. :scowl:


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## ma_sha1 (Mar 30, 2010)

TorchBoy said:


> You're an inspiration for would-be (wanna-be?) throwers, but you sure don't make it easy to follow. :scowl:



Thanks Torch Boy,

I did some Edit on Post #1 to clearly define the two LEDs being used as XRE R2 vs. XPG R5. However, I don't think it's necessary to use the full name "XRE R2" & and "XPG R5" every time in the posts that follows, because the R2 & R5 have been defined to be XRE R2 & XPG R5. 

Also, R5 is exclusive to XPG, therefore referring by bin code "R5" is the same thing as stating XPG R5, because there no other LED with bin code being R5 at the moment. 

I don't have issues with people referring LED using bin code, only when there are multiple LEDs with same bin code exits, then it's necessary to add additional info. to make it more specific. I hope the changes I made are able to avoid 
possible confusions?
.
.


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## TorchBoy (Mar 30, 2010)

Thanks for that, but your post from yesterday is still ambiguous. Coming back to this thread for the update yesterday after three weeks I did find myself wondering "what *was* he comparing?" I presume the XR-E is on the left in that spot shot?


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## hp84117 (Mar 30, 2010)

After seeing this thread three weeks ago, I ordered the flashlight and lens to make my own version. I used a copper pipe cap for the heatsink and soldered an expanded section of a piece of pipe around the outside to make it large enough diameter to fit snugly in the body of the flashlight. I have a few XP-G R5 emitters on hand, but I wanted to compare it the the other aspherics I have, and they all use XR-E's so I put in a R2 XR-E. It took 15 minutes or so to grind the outer lip from the lens so it would fit in the head using a standard benchtop grinder. There are some small chips at the edge, but they are outside the path of the light and are not visible from the front when the light is assembled. I wanted to use the 4AA batteries in the stock holder and so put a 1050ma 7135 driver in between the switch and heatsink. To get a good focus, the tube is not screwed very far into the head and wiggles a little, so my next step is to open the switch and fit the driver into the housing. This will allow the heatsink to go deeper into the body so the head can tighten down, and still keep focus. I also need to replace the current switch with a single mode version to get rid of the on-on-off pattern.

When I first turned the light on, my thought was that it was fine, but not much better than the 50mm versions, but then I rounded up my mag with the Melles Griot lens with an XR-E R2 direct drive. The comparison shows that the 66mm version has a distinctly tighter and much brighter hotspot.

I will try to get some pictures to show the difference, although I have had limited success in the past in photographing flashlight output.

Thanks for the inspiration.

Alan.


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## ma_sha1 (Mar 31, 2010)

hp84117 said:


> After seeing this thread three weeks ago, I ordered the flashlight and lens to make my own version....
> 
> To get a good focus, the tube is not screwed very far into the head and wiggles a little, so my next step is to open the switch and fit the driver into the housing. This will allow the heatsink to go deeper into the body...
> 
> ...



You are welcome!

My heat sink sit on the switch, the led is only 2-3 mm above the switch, so yes, there's no room for driver above the switch. 

Yes, the 66mm lens has to be brighter if the led is fully driven, as it's much tighter than the 50mm, given the fact it focused XPG (which is 2x the led surface area of XRE) to a smaller size spot than XRE. The light density in the spot should be about doubled if XRE 50mm goes to XRE 66mm. 

Is the Melles Griot lens AR coated?" I've always wondered what's the impact of AR, would one get 200% more lumens out into the spot with AR?

I'd love to see beam shots of the 66mm lens vs. 52mm Melles Griot lens.


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## ma_sha1 (Apr 3, 2010)

I am glad it's weekend again. Got some time to beef up the DEFT jr.
I was going to re-do the whole thing to run on Li-ion & push the XPG R5 to 2 Amp, 
but I decided to try run on 4AA first see how it goes.

Turns out, it handled the 4AA direct Drive just fine & the spot is 50% brighter visually. 
Moving up from running 3x AA Lithium (5.1v) to 4xAA Alk. 6V, the neck of the light gets warm faster, 
(I still can not measure the current due to the battery carrier pos. & neg. both located on the top) 

But the XPG R5 is once again beating the XRE R2:

Beam shot at very low manual exposure (1/400 of sec. F2.6), this is day time with room lights on. 

Left: Mag 1C clone XRE R2 1.5 Amp, 50mm DX Aspheric Lens--- 1 C Li-ion DD with 8x2Ohm resistor Parallel.
Right: Deft clone Jr. XPG R5 unknown amp, 66mm DX Aspheric lens---4xAA Alk. DD.
(My guess is that the XPG R5 is running close to 2 Amp)


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## 007adan (Apr 3, 2010)

what is the sku. for the Dx shower head host?

Thanks


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## ma_sha1 (Apr 3, 2010)

SKU# 3154


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## Al Combs (Apr 4, 2010)

ma_sha1 said:


> Is the Melles Griot lens AR coated?" I've always wondered what's the impact of AR, would one get 200% more lumens out into the spot with AR?


The Melles Griot site used to explain they only coated one side of the aspherics because the steep angle at the edge of the glass actually caused a decrease in transmission if coated. The 52-d*37-fl (01 LAG 123) from CVI is $28 if uncoated and $68 if coated with magnesium fluoride on the flat side only. Depending on the glass, you loose roughly 4% transmission per surface. So figuring MgF2 cuts the loss down to ≈1%, that's 95% transmission for a single sided coating vs 92% for an uncoated lens. That's a little steep to get an extra 3% transmission for $40. A chuck of glass 23mm thick probably absorbs more than that anyway.

Have you seen Surplus Shed? They used to sell MG's 01 LAG 123. It's been out of stock for years. So it doesn't look like anytime soon. They do have stock on something that had a mfg'r #01 LAG 015 for 10 bucks. That number isn't in the CVI-MG list so perhaps it's just very old. It's 55-d*38.5-fl so it requires grinding to fit in a Mag. The same lens is available from SS coated for only $12. Here's a novel alternative to grinding using the Mag-C&D anti-roll collar.


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## ma_sha1 (Apr 4, 2010)

Thanks, I am aware of Surplus shed & their 52 & 55 mm Mag sized lens.

If the AR help only 3%, then it's not worth the money to coat it then.
The impact of bigger diameter lens (with short EFL) is far greater than most other methods of optimization.

The 66mm lens is able to reduce spot size by 100% (2mm die XPG R5 reduced to less than the spot size of 1mm XRE R2 on 50mm lens).

The tighter spot caused by the bigger lens will dictate that this is a fart better set-up than Mag sized Aspheric, regardless of how high quality a 50-55mm lens one could get.


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## parnell (Apr 4, 2010)

I had some time and took apart my Deft clone to show how I mounted the drivers. They are two DX drivers(1 single mode and 1 three mode).








The heatsink is a little thick. I made up for that with a spacer placing the bezel a little further out.


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## ma_sha1 (Apr 4, 2010)

Nice, you were able to fit 2 drivers in the back. 

Is this the bigger full sized DEFT body?


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## parnell (Apr 4, 2010)

It is the full size body. Isn't the Jr the same size, 4AA?

It fit a single board plus the double boarded 3 mode. That is the max it will take.


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## ma_sha1 (Apr 4, 2010)

parnell said:


> It is the full size body. Isn't the Jr the same size, 4AA?
> 
> It fit a single board plus the double boarded 3 mode. That is the max it will take.




Good point, the Jr. is also 4AA, the same body, just smaller head.


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## wquiles (Apr 5, 2010)

ma_sha1 - very nice build :thumbsup:


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## ma_sha1 (Apr 5, 2010)

Thanks Will!


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## 007adan (Apr 7, 2010)

Ma sha1,


Have you tried using two lenses yet? Like Deft uses... If you have what kind of results did you get?


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## ma_sha1 (Apr 8, 2010)

I have, on the 50mm one. I didn't see much difference. I think the small lens need AR coated, 0therwise the gain may be cancelled out by the reflectin loss.


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## 007adan (Apr 8, 2010)

How about using a two lens system and have one lens bulge in towards the led and the other lens bulge out of the flashlight. Isn't that how a magnifying glass works?


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## ma_sha1 (Apr 8, 2010)

I am no optical expert, don't know how everything else would work.

But for flashlight, the small lens also need to be "condenser" type & bulge to the out side. It should help to concentrate the beam, so that more beam go into the primary aspherical lens as a result.

The problems is that introducing the smaller lens also reflects more light backwards, which wouldn't have happened without it. The additional angle collected (gain) & the additional reflection (loss) works against each other. 

So the net gain wasn't obvious when I tried it, my small lens didn't have AR coating. To make it work, I think one needs to try various EFL small lens with AR to optimize it. That's a lot of efforts & cost, not practical for those make one flashlight at a time for fun.

It's so much more easier & the gain is so much more obvious just stick with one lens & make it bigger.
.
.


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## 007adan (Apr 10, 2010)

Ma sha1,

Just completed my first Aspheric Mag Mod. It turned out beautiful. I even made my own heatsink. I will be ordering all the stuff from Dx to try this mod. Is the Xre-R2 the best L.E.D. for this Mod? It looks like making the heatsink is the biggest pain with this project. Anyways your an inspiration for all of us. Keep up the great work and thanks for sharing for all of us newbies.


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## ma_sha1 (Apr 10, 2010)

You are welcome. Yes, the Heat sink is a pain, as the focus point is so close to the switch.

XRE vs XPG depends on what you like. I am just experimenting the XPG,
I may twick this again, as I would like to know the driving current, then drive it to 2.35 Amp & try to match the XRE surface brightness at 1.5Amp.


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## parnell (Apr 29, 2010)

I saw that you have the lux readings for your other throwers in your other post, what did the xpg throw?


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## ma_sha1 (Apr 29, 2010)

This light has it's guts open right now, I am still not sure if I can take it further & kick it up a notch, I am undecided on if to bore out the body & Run 4xNIMN (The 4xEneloops won't go in, but the 4xAlk do go in) or leave it Running on 4xAA Alk or re-do the Switch/Driver & go with 1x Li-ion set-up. But I don't have time during the weekdays. 

I'll def. do some reading later when I am done fiddling around with this.


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## ma_sha1 (May 1, 2010)

This weekend, I rigged up some wires with alligator clamps so I can measure the Amp with the battery carrier outside the body.

The Amp started out at 1.5A, then quickly drops to 1.4, 1.3 & stablized around 1.2A. Remember, this is Alk 4xAA (Kirkland brand/sam's club),
they do not sustain high Amp draw very well. 

Then I measured the Lux, it started out at:
5 Meter Lux: 3850;.................... *1 Meter Lux96250,*
extremely close to the MagDEFT number I measured in that MagDEFT thread. I posted them below for reference: 

1.5D Mag 1185 3x17670:.........................................5 Meter Lux: 950;.................... 1 Meter Lux 23750
5xCree WF500 2x18500: .........................................5 Meter Lux: 1130;...................1 Meter Lux 28250
Ledean Mag 1C Surplus Shed 52mm lens, Cree P4 DD... 5 Meter Lux: 2100;.................. 1 Meter Lux 52500
Mag 1C Clone DX 50mm Aspheric Cree R2 1.5A, ...........5 Meter Lux: 2500;.................. 1 Meter Lux 62500
MagDEFT 3" Aspheric lens SSR-50 Top Bin 5 AMP, ....... 5 Meter Lux: 3995;...................1 Meter Lux 99875

However, knowning that this XPG is only driven to 1.5Amp, there's room to push much further that I wasn't able to do with the MagDEFT. With the correction factor for DX meter, this light is the 110,000 to 130,000 lux @ 1 meter range already, imagine what it would be if I push it over 2 Amp?

If I over drive it to 2-2.4 Amp range, this may get to 150,000 lux @ 1 meter range, i.e. possible to exceed DEFT FTP spec (132,000 @ 1 meter), if the heat sink is able to handle it without poofing the led. 

So, I am definately not done with this one, I will need to convert it to Li-ion & try to push it over 2 Amp. Which means I need to re-do the switch, use thicker wires etc. as well, but I think it'll be well worth it, just need to have some more free time.
.
.


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## parnell (May 1, 2010)

A smaller light with that much throw.......sounds good to me. Thanks for the test results. I will have make this a future project. The wallet can only handle one at a time.

I started preparing for another Deft clone style light but got side tracked on something else. 

Maybe this will help for a possible switch. The top just has the tower taken off like normal and the bottom has been trimmed up as seen. It is now the same height as a Deft host switch assembly.







I think the sides can be trimmed up to fit a driver or two nicely. I was planning on adding negative contact springs to both sides so the original battery holder could be used or it can be left alone for li-ion. The design isn't perfect yet but leaves a few options.

A small side note: Rayovac hybrids fit in the stock holder. EDIT: I was mistaken, they fit height wise but not in diameter. Energizer lithiums do fit nicely, but at a costly rate.


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## Tally-ho (May 2, 2010)

ma_sha1 said:


> I am no optical expert, don't know how everything else would work.
> 
> But for flashlight, the small lens also need to be "condenser" type & bulge to the out side. It should help to concentrate the beam, so that more beam go into the primary aspherical lens as a result.
> 
> ...



If you remove the dome from the emitter, won't the light go more directly to the aspherical lens instead of being projected on 180° ?
Emitter + (condenser lens) + aspherical lens.
Or replace the dome (that is an additional lens) by a little condenser lens.
Emitter + dome + (condenser lens) + aspherical lens.


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## ma_sha1 (May 2, 2010)

No, the doom helps to project light forward, benifit aspheric set up.


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## 007adan (May 21, 2010)

ma sha1,

I recently did your mod minus the Xpg led, I used an Xre led. Is there a driver that you can recommend with the stock 4aa battery holder that would make a huge difference between 4aa direct drive? I notice that the led is focused to a smaller spot than my 50mm aspheric mag, but the throw seems similar. The same is true for the larger 3" deft clone with an xre emitter, I have resolved the Led to a smaller spot but the throw seems very similar to my 50mm aspheric mag. Do I need a different battery configuration or is direct drive not the answer? If so what driver for each of these applications do you recommend with the 4 aa battery configuration. thanks for all your help..


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## ma_sha1 (May 21, 2010)

With 4AA NIMN, You can use a pair of this driver for XRE, if you can heat sink it well. This was what DEFT used in the original blow away aspheric mag thread. 

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.3256

With 4AA DD, I got over 2 Amp to XRE, that's way too much. 

Stock switch & thin wires may result into low Amps---Change to thicker 22/24 AWG wires 
Poor heat sinking will reduce out put or poof the XRE. Must be done well.
Stock battery holder can handle 2 Amp, so driving 1 XRE is no problem. 

Make sure you have achieved 1.5/1.6 amp & make sure ample heat sinking
to take care of the heat, then the bigger lens will blow away the 50mm DX lens.


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## 007adan (May 22, 2010)

ma sha1,

Thanks for all the info..Do I run these drivers in parallel or series? I see how you have them in the switch just unsure how to wire them up. Once again thanks for all your help..


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## ma_sha1 (May 22, 2010)

007adan said:


> ma sha1,
> 
> Thanks for all the info..Do I run these drivers in parallel or series? I see how you have them in the switch just unsure how to wire them up. Once again thanks for all your help..



parallel


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## moviles (Jun 4, 2010)

I have build a similar mod but with XR-E ez900 and the romisen rc-c8 host


























*left:13mm lens, the led lenser k3 with ez600or700, 6000 [email protected]*

*below in the middle:21mm lens, the c78 10000-12000 [email protected]* (like the x2000)

*below in the right : 42mm kaidomain lens 45000 [email protected]* 

*high: 66mm dx lens , 90000-100000 lux*


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## Techjunkie (Jun 4, 2010)

@Moviles,

2 Q's:

1) How do you like that MCU-C88? I've had my eye on that one for a while and haven't pulled the trigger yet. I'm thinking XM-L mod potential when those emitters are fiinally available...

2) Is that the romisen rc-c8 parked inside of DX sku 3154?

Thanks.


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## ma_sha1 (Jun 4, 2010)

moviles said:


> I have build a similar mod but with XR-E ez900 and the romisen rc-c8 host
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Glad you could got the high lux too, the 66mm DX lens is unbeatable for the price.
What's your Amp to the led? Is that a R2 or Q5?


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## moviles (Jun 4, 2010)

Techjunkie said:


> @Moviles,
> 
> 2 Q's:
> 
> ...


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## Techjunkie (Jun 4, 2010)

moviles said:


> Quote:
> 
> 
> Techjunkie said:
> ...


 
Thanks!


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## moviles (Jun 4, 2010)

ma_sha1 said:


> Glad you could got the high lux too, the 66mm DX lens is unbeatable for the price.
> What's your Amp to the led? Is that a R2 or Q5?



ty. 
are q5 (if we trust romisen)
I have maked the rc-c8 direct drived. I get 1.6 amp with the 18650 fullcharged at 4.23v


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## ma_sha1 (Jun 20, 2010)

Finally, I got some time to convert the light to Run on C Li-ion Direct Drive, as with the 4AA Alk., the curent is very unstable, dropping like flies.
I used 26AWG thin wires to help to limit the current.


I beefed up the heat sink by adding a Thick Copper Plate with a hole cu-out in the middle. 





I connect the negative to the side-wall using a meta stripe from mag switch. 






Add a Copper plate as Center Contact for battery pos. end.





Reduced Mag C spring diameter slightly & fit into the tail cap





DX Protected C li-ion fit in there perfectly with a PVC Sleeve. 





The beefed up Heat sink view.


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## 007adan (Jun 21, 2010)

Masha_1

I have some 1/8 inch plate copper which I can cut a Plug to use as a heatsink if you need it..You have helped me out so much it would be my honor to help you out, if you think heatsinking is the problem..


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## TorchBoy (Jun 21, 2010)

The thought occurs to me that to make a good heatsink you should add surface area, not just thermal mass. But I think you're marginally improving the thermal path to transfer heat from the base (flat) copper to the side copper.


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## ma_sha1 (Jun 21, 2010)

Thanks for the offer!

The output is very stable, the heatsink is enough.




007adan said:


> Masha_1
> 
> I have some 1/8 inch plate copper which I can cut a Plug to use as a heatsink if you need it..You have helped me out so much it would be my honor to help you out, if you think heatsinking is the problem..


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## ma_sha1 (Jun 21, 2010)

TorchBoy said:


> The thought occurs to me that to make a good heatsink you should add surface area, not just thermal mass. But I think you're marginally improving the thermal path to transfer heat from the base (flat) copper to the side copper.



I agree, that's why I designed the "Copper cup sink", it maxed out the thermo transfer surface area above the switch while allowing the led to sit low for optimal focus with the 66mm lens. 

On the the Copper slug ring I added, The primary reason was to *thicken the joint*, provide additional thermo transfer from the bottom plate to the round copper sleeve. I felt that the thin copper plate to round sleeve joint was the "bottle neck". 
The added thermo mass is a bonus, not the primary goal. Now the light runs at 2 Amp & the out-put is stable, with the original copper cup before, the out put drops fast at 1.5 Amp (I also blame the 4xAA Alk. batteries for that). 

Ideally, I'd prefer the whole thing to be a one piece machined copper cup with beefy junction.
.
.


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## Scattergun (Aug 13, 2010)

Will the focal point of the XP-G be the same as that of the XR-E? 
I am thinking of running a 3D Maglite with an XP-G along with the DX aspherical but I am not sure if I can use the same heatsink as I do with the XR-E since distance to the lens might differ.


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## ma_sha1 (Aug 13, 2010)

Scattergun said:


> Will the focal point of the XP-G be the same as that of the XR-E?
> I am thinking of running a 3D Maglite with an XP-G along with the DX aspherical but I am not sure if I can use the same heatsink as I do with the XR-E since distance to the lens might differ.



The focal point of the Aspherical set-up is determined by the lens, not by the led. So if your system works for XRE, it'll work with XPG. 

Plus, Mag has the ability to fine tune focus to accomodate minor position chages. Just make sure you place the XPG roughly where the XRE was, you'll be fine.


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## Scattergun (Aug 13, 2010)

Sorry, I kinda asked the wrong thing... 
Is the beam-angle the same between the two types of LED? Will I be loosing a lot of emitted light if going for a XP-G ?


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## ma_sha1 (Aug 13, 2010)

Scattergun said:


> Sorry, I kinda asked the wrong thing...
> Is the beam-angle the same between the two types of LED? Will I be loosing a lot of emitted light if going for a XP-G ?



Beam angles are not the same, XRE has a smaller beam angle.
You'll be losing higher % of lumens using XPG vs. XRE in using Aspheric lens, 
but I wouldn't say a lot. 

The fact the XPG R5 with 66mm lens is very close to 100K lux indicates that things like that can be overcome. With XRE driven hard, I'd imagine 110K lux or so on the same lens. Assume both XRE & XPG systems are optimized on the same lens, the XRE will come on top, probably by 10% or so.

However, rarely a flashlight system is "optimized", thus, XPG's bigger spot & SST style square spot shape is an attractive alternative in a thrower.


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## saabluster (Aug 13, 2010)

ma_sha1 said:


> The focal point of the Aspherical set-up is determined by the lens, not by the led. So if your system works for XRE, it'll work with XPG.


Not entirely true. There's two considerations here. How high in the package the die is mounted and how it is modified by the dome. The dome is an optical element and can affect how near or far the LED needs to be from the lens.



ma_sha1 said:


> The fact the XPG R5 with 66mm lens is very close to 100K lux indicates that things like that can be overcome. With XRE driven hard, I'd imagine 110K lux or so on the same lens. Assume both XRE & XPG systems are optimized on the same lens, the XRE will come on top, probably by 10% or so.
> 
> However, rarely a flashlight system is "optimized", thus, XPG's bigger spot & SST style square spot shape is an attractive alternative in a thrower.


10%? I think the XR-E will be more like 35-50% better.


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## ma_sha1 (Aug 13, 2010)

saabluster said:


> Not entirely true. There's two considerations here. How high in the package the die is mounted and how it is modified by the dome. The dome is an optical element and can affect how near or far the LED needs to be from the lens.



Thanks for chiming in, I was trying to simplify it & point to where the key area is, not to be caught up with insignificant accuracy of minor issues. 

I am aware that the apparent LED die location between the two may be slightly different, but it's not significant within the content of the question posed, nothing that a Mag's focusing range wouldn't over come. In the end, the answer is still the same. *If he simply swap out XRE & replace it with XPG in Mag, it'll work*.


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## kengps (Oct 1, 2010)

I must give this 66mm DX lens a try. I'm already making 121,000 lux with a Tiablo A9 head, with XR-E R2 EZ900 driven at 1.4 Amps. Without having to re-read all 3 pages anybody have a quick estimate of how much the 66mm lens will have in lux over the A9's 50mm lens? 66mm doesn't sound that much bigger. I like to keep things pocketable.


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## ma_sha1 (Oct 2, 2010)

you might want to check out the mag dragon Jr. then, this lens with Ez1000 & 2 AMP. >150K Lux .

It out throw 35W HID in my 700ft lightiouse shoot out.


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## kengps (Oct 2, 2010)

ma_sha1 said:


> you might want to check out the mag dragon Jr. then, this lens with Ez1000 & 2 AMP. >150K Lux .


 
So Magdragon Jr. uses the 66mm lens? Doesn't sound like much of a gain over what I have. EZ1000 at 2A has slightly more surface brightness than EZ900 at 1.4A. Well...I ordered the 66mm lens. I'll get some numbers with my emitter behind it when it arrives.


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## ma_sha1 (Oct 2, 2010)

kengps said:


> So Magdragon Jr. uses the 66mm lens? Doesn't sound like much of a gain over what I have. EZ1000 at 2A has slightly more surface brightness than EZ900 at 1.4A. Well...I ordered the 66mm lens. I'll get some numbers with my emitter behind it when it arrives.



120k lux vs 150k lux the difference is huge. 
One is beaten by DEFT FTP & the other beat DEFT FTP :devil:
(DEFT FTP measured 135K lux by BigC.)


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