# Self-Defense with Only a Flashlight



## PhilElmore (Apr 12, 2006)

CPFers,

Please forgive the ancillary self-promotion (moderators, please let me know if I am violating any rules). My new book, *Flashlight Fighting*, is now available from Paladin Press...





...and I am attempting to determine just how many people out there who are NOT self-defense exponents, martial artists, or other "tactical" types -- meaning, people who are simply "into" flashlights -- would have any interest in such a text (mine or someone else's). Can you give me some input and your opinions on the concept, please?

Thanks in advance.


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## greenLED (Apr 12, 2006)

...well... you asked:

Hyping the use of flashlights for self-defense among non-tactical gear heads is silly and it's time you guys stopped the nonsense. I'm not saying they can't be used for that purpose, I'm saying that, for those who are not familiar with even the most simple principles of self-awareness and personal safety, touting a flashlight will not give them an edge over an assailant. In fact, the light can be (easily) taken away and used *against* them by a determined attacker, or it may give them a false sense of security, which may lead them to get themselves in an unwanted situation. Doesn't matter how many books you (or others) write about the topic, that fact is not going to change.

For a flashlight to be used as tactical tool (either for defense, awareness, hand-to-hand combat, linked to a firearm, etc.), you must at least have the proper mindset and adequate (and constant) training. "Regular" people interested in the concept? Probably a few but learning self-defense from a book is like thinking you can fly a plane because you read a book about how they work. Again, it may lead some people to think they're safe from harm just because they carry a flashlight somewhere inside their pack.

On the other hand, there's probably good material in your book for those who are interested. Writing a book is a very serious mental exercise in synthesizing your knowledge and intelligently sharing it with others. Congratulations for your publication.


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## Dustin Liu (Apr 12, 2006)

I am currenty a First Brown Belt in the skill of karate.

And, Yes my karate master does teach us in flashlight defense:touche:

So, yes flashlight defense does help in the dark.


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## Brighteyez (Apr 12, 2006)

I agree! Given the demographics of most web forums, it would would probably be better to promote something that would make participants more aware of potentially dangerous situations, and how they should exercise discretion and avoid those situations. Even it's use with trained public safety employees is only marginally effective. Such a publication would have to be a contender for the world's shortest book. 

*EDIT* I almost made some comment about a publication of this nature sounds like something that would come from Paladin Press ... Then I looked at the JPEG on the initial posting!  ... honest! I didn't look at it earlier.
I'll bet the web has done wonders in increasing sales for that vendor.



greenLED said:


> Hyping the use of flashlights for self-defense among non-tactical gear heads is silly and it's time you guys stopped the nonsense.


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## PhilElmore (Apr 12, 2006)

> ...I'm saying that, for those who are not familiar with even the most simple principles of self-awareness and personal safety, touting a flashlight will not give them an edge over an assailant.



The principles are really very simple; while you cannot simply hand someone a Minimag and say, "There, you're safe now," I believe a little knowledge and a little awareness is better than no knowledge and no awareness.



> In fact, the light can be (easily) taken away and used *against* them by a determined attacker,



The argument, "It will just be taken away from you" is used to dismiss the carry of just about any weapon. I think people who say this don't stop to think just how hard it is truly to disarm someone who is tightly holding something with which he is also beating you.



> or it may give them a false sense of security, which may lead them to get themselves in an unwanted situation.



That is a danger with _all_ self-defense implements and tools, however. There are people who buy guns thinking them to be magic wands, who then get themselves into trouble because they don't think they have to behave with simple common sense anymore.



> Doesn't matter how many books you (or others) write about the topic, that fact is not going to change.



Respectfully, this is like saying that no amount of education will ever stop people from being stupid. You have to start somewhere.



> For a flashlight to be used as tactical tool (either for defense, awareness, hand-to-hand combat, linked to a firearm, etc.), you must at least have the proper mindset and adequate (and constant) training.



I would dispute this. It doesn't take hours of training or some sort of constant, unceasing ninja outlook to learn to drive a short rod of metal into someone's face. It does take _some_ training, yes, but anyone can learn the basics in a relatively short amount of time.



> "Regular" people interested in the concept? Probably a few but learning self-defense from a book is like thinking you can fly a plane because you read a book about how they work. Again, it may lead some people to think they're safe from harm just because they carry a flashlight somewhere inside their pack.



I would hope it would get them _started_ and give them ideas for future study, while providing them with the basics of a simple concept that anyone can apply.



> On the other hand, there's probably good material in your book for those who are interested. Writing a book is a very serious mental exercise in synthesizing your knowledge and intelligently sharing it with others. Congratulations for your publication.



Thank you. The book does contain sections on awareness, body mechanics, and other self-defense basics that are applicable to anything (not just flashlights), so I truly do believe beginners and "regular people" would find it of use. I wrote this book keeping in mind that I would want to be able to give it to, say, any member of my family who knew nothing else about self-defense.


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## greenLED (Apr 12, 2006)

Phil,
Thank you for taking the time to comment my post. I'll have to qualify/add some of what I said before and you commented on:



PhilElmore said:


> ... I believe a little knowledge and a little awareness is better than no knowledge and no awareness.


I agree, some knowledge is better than none, and it's great that you're trying to share this knowledge with the public. However, going from reading a book to implementing that knowledge in a stress situation (when most people tend to freeze) takes a couple of steps. Further training and practice (however simple it may be) is still necessary. Your book is indeed a valuable tool but people shouldn't stop there and think they're immune (which is what I see hapenning with certain products being hyped as the ultimate defensive tools - that's what I meant by stopping the nonsense).



PhilElmore said:


> The argument, "It will just be taken away from you" is used to dismiss the carry of just about any weapon. I think people who say this don't stop to think just how hard it is truly to disarm someone who is tightly holding something with which he is also beating you.


It may be hard, but it's possible, and it happens. Case in hand: One of my wife's coworkers (tall, strong, sporty kinda guy) was almost beaten to death when he tried to quiet down a group of people having a party next door. Their weapon of choice: the guy's 3D Maglite. Yup, the same one he thought he could use as a club when they jumped on him. That doesn't mean people shouldn't carry defense tools; if you know how to use them, the better you are.



PhilElmore said:


> There are people who buy guns thinking them to be magic wands, who then get themselves into trouble because they don't think they have to behave with simple common sense anymore.


Exactly. Knowledge is power and can mean safety for some people. Improper use of the little knowledge you gain can lead to unexpected situations, though. "Carrying" doesn't mean you're 100% safe. It's great that you're trying to raise people's awareness.


To tie back to your original question about target audience: By the time someone (a "regular" person - no training) picks up your book or becomes interested in gaining defensive training, something has already clicked inside their heads. They're not "regular" anymore. A text describing simple techniques may well be useful for them... with all the caviats that un-interiorized knowledge will bring for them. Hopefully they are made aware of these caviats by someone.


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## ACMarina (Apr 12, 2006)

Phil, I've always found your reviews to be top-notch.. I'm not a big fan of using a flashlight as my only means of defense (last ditch effort before kicking and screaming) but they definately play into my other training. I'd pick up a copy just for insight and varied points of view..


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## Buster Bodine (Apr 12, 2006)

"Can you give me some input and your opinions on the concept, please?"

I'm new here and maybe I should just keep my mouth shut but like the man said, you asked!

I think its such a simple concept it borders on being a no-brainer and anyone with any interest or aptitude for the subject could probably figure it out for themselves pretty fast. If there was anything they couldn't figure out, they could probably find more information with a google search than they would ever want to know. There doesn't seem to be any really good reason to buy your book.

"I am attempting to determine just how many people out there who are NOT self-defense exponents, martial artists, or other "tactical" types -- meaning, people who are simply "into" flashlights -- would have any interest in such a text (mine or someone else's)."

That's kind of wierd. I mean, most people would try to find out if there was any interest before they wrote the book, not after it was published. I'd think the sales figures would tell you a lot more than posting about it here.

Besides, Paladin?

Getting published by Paladin is like "scoring" with the ugliest prostitute in town. You can do it all you like but don't expect anybody to be impressed!


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## jclarksnakes (Apr 12, 2006)

We are a varied bunch of people here. Yes, there are some here who are just into flashlights but based upon the number of LEOs and military who post and also the large number who mentioned weapons in the "whats in your pocket" and similar threads we have a bunch of people who do carry weapons. The use of a flashlight for defense either as a sole weapon or in combination with other weapons may be of great interest to SOME of us.
jc


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## PhilElmore (Apr 12, 2006)

Buster Bodine said:


> That's kind of wierd. I mean, most people would try to find out if there was any interest before they wrote the book, not after it was published. I'd think the sales figures would tell you a lot more than posting about it here.



That's not the point. I _know_ there is interest in the book among people who are interested in self-defense; I'm curious as to how many "normal" people might be made "not normal" because of the flashlight hook.



> Besides, Paladin?
> 
> Getting published by Paladin is like "scoring" with the ugliest prostitute in town. You can do it all you like but don't expect anybody to be impressed!



Have you published many books, then? I'd be interested in contacting your editor for his advice on better venues.



> Phil, I've always found your reviews to be top-notch.. I'm not a big fan of using a flashlight as my only means of defense (last ditch effort before kicking and screaming) but they definately play into my other training. I'd pick up a copy just for insight and varied points of view..



Thank you! 



> The use of a flashlight for defense either as a sole weapon or in combination with other weapons may be of great interest to SOME of us.



That is my hope. I am grateful for the feedback received so far.


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## Kryosphinx (Apr 12, 2006)

I think this is a great idea! Perfect for "ordinary folks" who just want an idea of what things they can do with a flashlight.

I like your reviews. They're awesome.

My favorites are your facial expressions. They're priceless! LOL!


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## Bozzlite (Apr 12, 2006)

Phil, just how big a boy are ya. I wouldn't mess with you even with a 6 D cell maglite in my hand. 

All joking aside.......I would not be interested in a publication on that subject. I will not state my reasons because then this post would become better suited for a forum of a different subject involving the 2nd amendment. (As I don my flame retardant pajamas). 

Good luck with your book.


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## pizzaman (Apr 12, 2006)

Phil,

Personally I look forward to your take on Flashlight defense. I will look into your book.

A flashlight is a tool, and can be used in multiple ways to deter an assault (checking ahead for baddies, not looking like a victim type, etc) to improving your odds if an assault occurs (a moment of advantage gained with a flash to the eyes, a more powerful punch with the flashlight in the fist, or as a striking device, etc...). I'll take any advantage I can get. If the flashlight helps, I'll use it. If a handful of sand to the face provides the edge, then so be it.

There are many other tools that improve ones odds of assault prevention or self defense: Awareness of your surroundings, don't look like a victim, staying out of bad situations and locations, pepper spray, batons/maglites, knives, firearms, etc. All fill a niche. Many work together in a continuum of force allowing for escalation to any/all that improve your chances. Take a look at a police officers belt these days. Nuff said.

If I am able to carry more powerful defense tools and the flashlight gives me that brief moment to bring them to bear, then it is of great value. 

The unfortunate reality of today's world is, many simple/practical methods of self defense have been removed as options to the citizens. Pepper spray, knives, and firearms are simply not options for most/many folks. Walking out to my car carrying my knife or gun in my hand in a ready position will get me a ride in a police car, a strip search, some cool striped jammies, and a cell mate named Bubba.

An appropriate flashlight can be carried in your hand without a second look. I can quickly survey my car before entering or light up the shadows if something looks suspicious. It is legal in schools, airports, and all manner of public places that limit all other self defense/prevention tools. 

If the worst happens, I would much rather have a small tube of metal in my fist, than an empty fist. If a flashlight provides an advantage to those that have been denied other methods of defense, then I am all for it. 

The flashlight isn't a super weapon, or the solution to all bad guy problems. But, to pretend they are useless or can play no roll in self defense/deterrence is in my opinion ignorant. Also, any tool in the hands of a fool can be useless or dangerous. That said, I don't want my information or options limited because of the lowest common denominators in our society.

TR


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## ABTOMAT (Apr 12, 2006)

I think some of you folks are being a little hard on Phil. I mean, I _hate_ the hyping up of "tactical flashlight" combat by Surefire, et al, but there are different sides to it. The crap usually brought up is all about blinding your attacker into helplesness and then deanimating (credit Dork Ops for the best "mall ninja" word ever) him with your uber-tactical crenelated strike bezel. This stuff strikes (no pun intended) me as 99% marketing BS and I can't stand it, or the folks who get hooked into it.

However, yawara-based fighting is a rather old and established martial art. Your average yawara is a metal cylinder about 6-8" long. A small flashlight works well in a pinch. Now, I haven't read Phil's book but I would expect it to be mostly geared towards that kind of thing. That's fine by me, although without knowing more about it I'd think that previous books dealing with these methods of combat would do.

On top of that, you also have all the other methods of fighting that involve flashlights in a secondary manner. Shooting techniques, weapon lights and illumination, etc.

Of course no book is going to turn someone into a self defense master. But you can learn from one, along with proper training and practice.

Oh yeah, given a choice I'd much rather have a weapon in a fight than not, even if there was a chance of heaving it taken from me.

For Buster: Any idea what it's like to get a book with an oddball topic published? You just don't walk into Random House and get a book deal for one about ***-beatings with flashlights.  Paladin might have a lot of stuff for the tinfoil beanie crowd, but they're the biggest player in "tactical" stuff and actually do have _some_ good titles if you poke around.


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## rashe (Apr 13, 2006)

I wouldn't trust anything Phil Elmore puts out.

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=31146

The guy wrote a hoax article, Phil published it without checking its veracity. There's no knowing what other crap would make it in, especially with Paladin Press' low publishing standards.


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## igabo (Apr 13, 2006)

rashe said:


> I wouldn't trust anything Phil Elmore puts out.
> 
> http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=31146
> 
> The guy wrote a hoax article, Phil published it without checking its veracity. There's no knowing what other crap would make it in, especially with Paladin Press' low publishing standards.



:goodjob:

Doubted the martialist stuff after reading about it here on CPF, and this here only strengthens my belief. Excellent find; does a great part to prove this BS completely wrong.


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## rashe (Apr 13, 2006)

Yeah, the Bullshido guys are sometimes overzealous, but they do a good job ferreting out the real BS.


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## AuroraLite (Apr 13, 2006)

In absolute honesty, I can't help but to agree with Greenled in parts of what he has said. I did study martial art for years, and more into the art, the more I have understanding and respect in how to handle/deal with confrontation and survival situation.

There are so many times that I have told fellow practioners, students and instructors that regardless how hard we train and how skillful we have became, none will ever replace the good'o common sense. The minute we lost our senses, all goes down the drain and poo-poo will hit the fan. Sometimes, it is not about winning/overcoming an opponent in a fight, but surviving a conflict(especially dealing with an armed conflict).

It is true that mindset and training and various kind of preperations might aid a person to survive or overcome a conflict/fight by force, and it is each one person's responsibility to make *an accurate assessment as what is necessary to survive based on actual reality*...but as an instructor/friend/fellow martial art practioner, I see it as my own responsibility to make sure what is taught/shown/used is had been proofen in actual conflict situation either by myself or trusted/well-credited person. Living persons' lives might be at stake, and I think I owe it that much to them.

In regards to the book, I can't say whether it will work for the reader or not(as I haven't read it myself)...but I do strongly advice any fellow reader to bare this in mind--what is the likelihood that you could overcome the situation absolutely without scratch with your barehands? And if you could bet your life on that answer, then flashlight as a tool will be the sugar coating on your cake. But do remember, *sugar coating does not make the cake*. Peace.


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## idleprocess (Apr 13, 2006)

One would have to read the book and judge it on its merits before jumping to conclusions.

I have to agree with the sentiment that a flashlight is of itself not much of a weapon, but if deployed properly can give you an edge ... how signifigant depends on the situation and what _additional_ tactics you deploy, as well as the mindset of your opponent.

How many of us have accidentally (or not?) been blasted in the face by one of our own lights and not had much trouble still seeing a moment or two later? In my case, the afterimage of an exceptionally bright light ceases to obscure detail in less than a second. The only times I have trouble with darkness adaptation is after waking in the middle of the night. Maybe I'm different from everyone else...

I'm no expert on the subject, but _mindset_ seems to be a great deal of self defense. I've been in a number of situations that could have gone wrong and realized afterwards that I may not have been mentally prepared to deal with it. We're all beasts of civillization - violence is something on TV, in movies or video games, right? Does it ever _really_ happen? That stranger you passed on the sidewalk at night ... what if he swings at you the moment you come into arms' reach? With a streetlight every 100 yards alternating sides of the street, are his movements going to be telegraphed? Is it within your personal realm of possiblities?


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## PhilElmore (Apr 13, 2006)

Anyone willing to align themselves with the angry kids over at "Bullshido" is certainly free to go on living a life of deluded foolishness. They spend so much time complaining about me that I had to *write my own FAQ about their FAQ on ME*. (You couldn't ask for more effective publicity.)



> I have to agree with the sentiment that a flashlight is of itself not much of a weapon, but if deployed properly can give you an edge ... how signifigant depends on the situation and what additional tactics you deploy, as well as the mindset of your opponent.



Exactly right.


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## bfg9000 (Apr 13, 2006)

Aw, man... when I saw "Paladin" I immediately thought it would be about how to improvise a grenade out of a flashlight packed with dangerous unprotected lithium-ion cells




.

I think most common people who are simply "into" flashlights would be better off throwing their Surefire on the ground to distract their attackers while they turn and run (look! it's a Surefire! Hey where did he go?). 

A flashlight is merely a tool that can buy precious seconds best used for a hasty retreat. The same could be said for a handgun, if you are not a LEO. If you can run, run.


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## Delvance (Apr 13, 2006)

Here's my input/opinion

To me, a flashlight is not much of a weapon. Sure, it has a slight chance of giving the user a small advantage, but most people carry their light in a closed top holster, pocket, bag etc. usually violent situations come about unexpectedly, leaving no time for the person to fetch their light. If the user did have the light...it would still be quite useless against a focused determined attacker. The more focused/determined/in control of themselves the attacker is, the less chance offensive/defensive tools will have an affect on them and the higher ability they'll have to negate these tools etc. Also, where i live, there is plenty of ambient lighting so the effectiveness of light is further diminished.

I also don't like the idea of relying on a tool to provide extra security. What happens if the user leaves their light at home ? Personally, i think the best way to prepare oneself is to learn an appropriate form of fighting/combat, and if you're going to a place that may contain trouble...wear appropriate clothing that doesn't restrict movement etc.

I'm sure your book addresses all of the issues i mentioned though.

How about looking at it this way ? Place yourself in an attacker's shoes...your about to munch some guy and he flashes you with his 60 lumens worth of G2. How will you react ? I ask this because, the respondents of this thread are more likely to be trained in some form of martial arts etc. To be honest, i can see how a normal untrained person may be put off by the light, but a well trained person...the chances of them being affected by light are pretty low, and in some cases, this may even give a mental boost to the attacker.

Anyways, there is a chance that a flashlight could help but i wouldn't rely on it. I guess that's the whole point though, just one more thing to better your chances ?


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## PhilElmore (Apr 13, 2006)

> I'm sure your book addresses all of the issues i mentioned though.



It does, yes -- I tried to anticipate the criticisms one might raise and I addressed them accordingly. All weapons -- all _force multipliers_ -- are a means of cheating in what is already a gamble (self-defense). They're a means of increasing the odds in your favor. They are never a guarantee.

The book focuses primarily on using a light like a palm stick in order to strike someone. I also address the advantages of having a light source in low-light conditions (and caution the reader not to count on this working). 

I've personally used a Brinkmann MaxFire in an altercation with someone seated in a car at night, lighting him up from the driver's side window. The light worked beautifully, causing him to wince and (oddly) try to reflect the light back at me with a CD that was sitting on his dashboard, all while he complained, "Hey, man, get that light outta my face," etc. I had a distinct advantage in that encounter because he was unable to see me clearly, while I could see him perfectly. My advantage at no time translated to a guarantee of success, however. This incident took place _after_ the book was submitted, or I would have included it in the text.


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## KDOG3 (Apr 13, 2006)

I think some of you are being unnecessarily harsh. Last I checked, this is a free country ( NOTE: I realize there are members from other nations here, but lets face it - the bulk are US) and if you don't want to read it - then don't! Its' as simple as that. 

I don't think that learning how to use something that we will probably have on us ( this _IS_ CPF after all ) if we should be accosted is a bad thing. Wouldn't you like to know? I have flashlight on me at ALL times, and I would!


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## PhilElmore (Apr 13, 2006)

Thanks. I don't think the responses have really been too harsh (though perhaps I have a thick skin -- you cannot express opinions on self-defense in public without drawing fire from those who disagree) -- but your thoughts mirror my own. Why not learn to use a daily carry object if that object can provide you with an advantage? I carry a flashlight clipped to my pocket every day and my torch has sometimes been my only SD tool when traveling (especially out of the country).


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## ACMarina (Apr 13, 2006)

Quite true - every little thing helps..


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## Planterz (Apr 13, 2006)

Maybe it's because of the line of work I'm in, but I definitely see some uses for this book. I don't deliver myself, but I work at a pizza place. Nobody will look twice at a delivery driver carrying a flashlight (assuming it's nighttime, but that's when bad stuff happens anyway). Because of company policies, drivers are usually prohibited from carrying weapons, even obvious purely self-defense oriented things like OC spray. A flashlight however is not only allowed, but a useful aid for this profession. 

A normal person going about his business might not have the time, ability, or presence of mind to deploy a holstered or pocketed personal flashlight, but it's quite normal for a delivery guy to be walking around with a flashlight already in hand. A Surefire E2D or a 3D Maglight might be the only protection a delivery driver has in the right (er, the wrong) situation. If I ever get around to getting a car and delivering myself, I'll likely have a large flashlight (although it'd probably be a Mag951 posing as a 3D or something like that) and be reading Phil's book.


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## PhilElmore (Apr 13, 2006)

Thanks! The book contains an appendix on wielding larger lites like D-cell Maglites.

There are times when I, too, walk with my flashlight in my hand, simply because I am concerned about the area or the conditions.

This part is preaching to the choir, as they say, but the simple _utility value_ of daily flashlight carry cannot be overstated. My "tactical light" has literally saved my life when walking at night. I blink it as I cross busy streets (I did this at night while walking through Boston, for example) and there was one evening that a car whipped around a corner into a side street and noticed me just in time _thanks to that light_.


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## REparsed (Apr 13, 2006)

The premise of using a small flashlight as a defensive tool makes sense to me and I’ll reserve any critical judgment until after I’ve read the book (I do plan on reading it).


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## KDOG3 (Apr 13, 2006)

You can get one of those TIDs' (Tactical Impact Device) for you flashlights' bezel which will certainly help...


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## PhilElmore (Apr 13, 2006)

Unfortunately, the very things that will make the light more effective for striking (the TID, or SureFire's E2D Defender bezel, or the similar bezel you could get for the late and sorely missed NightCutter M60) make it more obviously a dedicated weapon, increasing the chances law enforcement might frown on it if you used it. This doesn't mean I don't own such devices (or carry them), but it's food for thought.


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## Fixer (Apr 13, 2006)

I am very interested in this topic. I actually carry a Fenix L2P because I can wield it as a force multiplier. I travel alot, frequently on airplanes and never check luggage so I only have what is permitted as carryon. Kubotons etc are not permitted. My flashlight occasionally attracts TSA attention, but as soon as they identify it as a flashlight their curiosity is over and I am on my way. I am thinking of getting something a little more tactical: E2D, XM-3 etc, but I like the low-key look of the L2P.


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## Delvance (Apr 13, 2006)

EDC is a great thing yes, but it's also very situational. 

I actually live in one of Australia's main cities, and the ambient lighting here is plentiful. I've been carrying various EDCs long before joining CPF and to be honest, i have not once used my light to aid defence etc. Oh, i've genuinely used my EDC a few times only...easily countable on one hand.

Don't get me wrong, i have nothing against someone using a light as a defence or anyone advising so. So long as the person doesn't get a false sense of security from it that other members here have referred to. The point of "if it's on me, why not use it" is also understood, quite true.

Where i live, firearms are a minimum and almost no civilian carries one. Knives are prohibited from being carried on the street and are also fairly rare. Sprays etc are illegal here. So we don't really have much choice here except for our natural body weapons. I guess that's where my opinion of "rely on self" comes from... most "incidents" here are almost always unarmed.

I guess in a more hostile environment (where people have the option of guns, knives, sprays etc), every tool that may serve as self defence will increase in value though.

Edit - i should say, i have nothing against your book. Without reading it, i won't be able to comment on it. I also have nothing against using a light for defence etc, long as the user doesn't think they are superman if they are holding one lol. Just trying to inject my thought and a different viewpoint in regards to usefulness in different locations.


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## REparsed (Apr 13, 2006)

I wonder how many times someone’s “false sense of security” has saved them from being victimized?

A person with a sense of security (false or otherwise) doesn’t look like a victim. They appear confident and prepared. As long as they don’t go looking for trouble I’d say they’re better off with a false sense of security.


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## PhilElmore (Apr 13, 2006)

That's an interesting point. I don't know as I would call it a long-term survival strategy -- there have been just as many people, I would guess, who did everything _right_, still found themselves in an altercation, and discovered what they had learned didn't work for them in real life.

My book discusses these issues very realistically and reasonably, in my opinion. It starts by explaining why you might (or should) choose to carry a flashlight, then emphasizes awareness and body mechanics before getting into offensive (defensive, in context) striking and such. There is an appendix on cord-wrapping a flashlight to make a finger loop and there is one on striking with larger Maglite-sized flashlights. Firearms lights are mentioned in passing but are not the focus of the book (and gun lights have been covered elsewhere in detail anyway).


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## ACMarina (Apr 13, 2006)

REparsed - Good point


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## rashe (Apr 13, 2006)

PhilElmore said:


> Anyone willing to align themselves with the angry kids over at "Bullshido" is certainly free to go on living a life of deluded foolishness. They spend so much time complaining about me that I had to *write my own FAQ about their FAQ on ME*. (You couldn't ask for more effective publicity.)


 
You got hosed by them, you'd be better of to admit you've been had and make steps to rebuild what trust you had as a publisher. You published an article that was obviously a hoax, without bothering to even confirm the veracity of the claims made therein. You simply published it because it fit the theme of gadgets for those who are incapable of handling themselves in a fight without said gadgets. While some of what you put out _may_ very well be legitimate, the fact that you published a hoax article in full seriousness, and are unwilling to admit that you were had and made a mistake, puts everything you publish into doubt. Everything you put out will be untrustworthy until you get this issue cleared up. If you don't try to deal with it in a mature manner, and continue to respond in the manner as you do, you will only serve to further cast into doubt any claims you make.


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## rashe (Apr 13, 2006)

REparsed said:


> I wonder how many times someone’s “false sense of security” has saved them from being victimized?
> 
> A person with a sense of security (false or otherwise) doesn’t look like a victim. They appear confident and prepared. As long as they don’t go looking for trouble I’d say they’re better off with a false sense of security.


 
The same question could be asked about how often someone's false sense of security got them into trouble because they didn't book it when they should have.


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## ACMarina (Apr 13, 2006)

Example?? Most cases I can think of, if somebody is calm, cool, collected and smart, they're not going to get into much trouble unless there isn't anything they could do about it..


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## shotgun (Apr 13, 2006)

I would be interested in your book, but I think I might be more in your demographic than most here. Your bringing your book to the attention of CPF members seems reasonable given the subject matter. 

I am a bit disturbed by some of the judgmental replies.

I have tremendous faith in the intelligence of others to make their own decisions regarding good verses bad information. Let's give folks some credit. I have not read your book. It might be brilliant; it might be awful. Regardless, it should stand on its own merits. Fair is fair. 

We are ultimately responsible for our own safety. Anything that helps is a good thing. If a book is going to turn the average person into a lumen-wielding madman, then the problem is on the other end. It's not the book nor the flashlight. 

We don't really need protection from ourselves, do we?


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## Delvance (Apr 13, 2006)

Yes it is a two way situation, i do see your point, but that same confidence booster may also fireback if the user starts imposing themself unneccasarily (just think of how many people have gotten into and LOST fights because they thought their 3 months of training in karate made them tough). If they don't look for trouble but still possess this false sense of security, they will appear as more confident yes, but this can also egg on an attacker. It may also cloud the judgement of the person...say for example, they have the chance to run but don't. Yup, alot of people "trained" in a form of fighting also walk with a delusion. The problem is they get too stuck into the exact structure they've learnt, and do not take into the account the brutality and forms of attacks an attacker can dish out...so once they are attacked, they don't know what to do/find their techniques quite useless. (I've got friends that lost fights because they thought their training made them superior yup)

That said, most predators do look for timid targets, i totally agree. A false sense of security can be a bonus IF they don't go looking for trouble (unfortunately, quite a few with this this do go looking for it).




REparsed said:


> I wonder how many times someone’s “false sense of security” has saved them from being victimized?
> 
> A person with a sense of security (false or otherwise) doesn’t look like a victim. They appear confident and prepared. As long as they don’t go looking for trouble I’d say they’re better off with a false sense of security.


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## Lightraven (Apr 13, 2006)

I consider myself an expert at staying out of fights in a job where I could get into one every week. I was toying with the idea of starting a thread about what I know. I wasn't sure anybody would read it, though! 

A lot of people want to know HOW to fight. Using a flashlight as an impact weapon is valid, and I've seen it done (more or less unsuccessfully) and heard from my coworker (female) who successfully used a Stinger. TonkinWarrior has some successful experience here also. 

If I read a book about fighting/self-defense of this type, I think it will be something written by an experienced bouncer or cop on the bad side of town.


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## mykall (Apr 13, 2006)

I thought I remembered a song about this years ago, went something like....

"Everybody was Flashlight Fighting....dew dew dew dew dew dew

Those beamshots were fast as lightning...dew dew dew dew dew dew dew

Ohhh Hoah Hoah Hoooooow....Ohhhh Hoah Hoah Hoooooow"

I could be wrong though


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## Lightraven (Apr 13, 2006)

No, you're right.

Great Karaoke song, (Everybody was) Flashlight Fighting.


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## PhilElmore (Apr 13, 2006)

rashe said:


> You got hosed by them, ...the fact that you published a hoax article in full seriousness, and are unwilling to admit that you were had and made a mistake, puts everything you publish into doubt. Everything you put out will be untrustworthy until you get this issue cleared up. If you don't try to deal with it in a mature manner, and continue to respond in the manner as you do, you will only serve to further cast into doubt any claims you make.



No, I did not get "hosed." I made a *very specific point*, I did so deliberately, and I made one of the angry stalker children who spends so much time obsessing over me _look like a fool_. If I'm guilty of anything it's of using the poor boy to promote my publication. I find it very interesting that, while that fellow and spectators like you are only too happy to bring up the trick he supposedly put over on me, you never actually manage to link to the article *in which I humiliate him while making use of the material he so gleefully submitted*.



> _*From My Own Commentary:*
> 
> Ultimately, the article offers what I think is an interesting idea that is worth considering – an idea that isn't original and with which I a was previously acquainted. I gather that the "ownage" here is that I'm supposed to have been taken in by an article I did not "verify" – as if I'm going to retire for the evening to the field laboratories of The Martialist, where James Bond-esque technicians spend their days shooting knives from spring-loaded wrist sheaths, practicing body posturing on captive hobos, winos, and panhandlers, and turning out homemade koppo sticks on industrial lathes when they're not out on the street solving crimes with paracord-wrapped flashlights gripped in their fists.
> 
> ...





> If I read a book about fighting/self-defense of this type, I think it will be something written by an experienced bouncer or cop on the bad side of town.



There is no shortage of books of this type (written by bouncers, military types, law enforcement officers, etc.) and you're certainly free to choose to read them. I bring both a talent for writing and over a decade and a half of martial arts experience to what I write, but that doesn't impress some people (nor should it). I believe the content of a book should be based _on the content of the book_. Anyone who reads _Flashlight Fighting_ will, I am confident, get something useful from it -- if only affirmation of what he or she already knows to be workable on the topic of palm sticks and portable light sources.



> Yes it is a two way situation, i do see your point, but that same confidence booster may also fireback if the user starts imposing themself unneccasarily (just think of how many people have gotten into and LOST fights because they thought their 3 months of training in karate made them tough). If they don't look for trouble but still possess this false sense of security, they will appear as more confident yes, but this can also egg on an attacker. It may also cloud the judgement of the person...say for example, they have the chance to run but don't. Yup, alot of people "trained" in a form of fighting also walk with a delusion. The problem is they get too stuck into the exact structure they've learnt, and do not take into the account the brutality and forms of attacks an attacker can dish out...so once they are attacked, they don't know what to do/find their techniques quite useless. (I've got friends that lost fights because they thought their training made them superior yup)



As you've said, this is the danger of all self-defense training and all self-defense implements. The benefits of self-defense training and books containing self-defense information outweigh the risks, however; the alternative wold be utter defeatism.



> I would be interested in your book, but I think I might be more in your demographic than most here. Your bringing your book to the attention of CPF members seems reasonable given the subject matter.
> 
> I am a bit disturbed by some of the judgmental replies.



Thank you!  Please do not worry about the intensity of some of the replies; I am a polarizing figure specifically because I dare to publish and defend forceful opinions about self-defense. Few things are more immediately flammable than expressing any sort of opinion on the martial arts. When you combine that with achieving the sort of influence _The Martialist_ has achieved in three years _and_ you add to that the fact that I'm an ordinary citizen (a mere mortal, rather than a LEO or military veteran), you get a lot of very, very angry people who can't believe someone who doesn't impress them would _dare_ to engage in such a venture.

It is the perversity of publicity that such an intense negative reaction is what helps build notoriety as much as does positive responses (perhaps even more so). There really is no such thing as bad PR, as they say; when the poor misinformed teenagers at Bullshido started devoting thread after thread to how much they hated me (culminating in the attempt to sneak a fake article into my magazine, which I gladly published because it actually contained usable informatoin -- the only time these people help anyone in self-defense is when they're trying to do the opposite) my sites started charting the first of what would be many months of steadily increasing and very respectable traffic. (We are averaging about 700,000 hits per month, which pretty good for a niche publication.)



> Example?? Most cases I can think of, if somebody is calm, cool, collected and smart, they're not going to get into much trouble unless there isn't anything they could do about it..



I would dispute this. Most rational people avoid trouble when possible, but despite your best efforts, an emergency or a physical altercation can indeed find you. It is better to be prepared and go to your grave never needing such preparation than it is to hope for the best and have no plan (and no equipment). I hope that when I die of old age, I can say to myself, "Damn, I never needed that handgun, that knife, or that flashlight, not one time." I can live with that sort of "regret." Unfortunately, it already isn't true -- but that's the ideal.


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## Sierra_Bill (Apr 14, 2006)

idleprocess said:


> How many of us have accidentally (or not?) been blasted in the face by one of our own lights and not had much trouble still seeing a moment or two later? In my case, the afterimage of an exceptionally bright light ceases to obscure detail in less than a second. The only times I have trouble with darkness adaptation is after waking in the middle of the night. Maybe I'm different from everyone else...



This is the problem I now have with the idea of "blinding" an attacker with a "tactical" flashlight of say, 60 to 100 lumens, now that I've started using my head instead of believing the Surefire hype. How effectively are you blinded by a car's headlights in an urban night setting? Do those thousands of lumens render you impotent to attack someone? Then why would a flashlight give more than a momentary advantage, potentially useful if you're a well-trained LEO with backup weapons, but more likely than not to merely anger a determined attacker if you're an ordinary Joe or Jane (as others have noted)?

Idleprocess, you're no different than anyone else, other than being more observant than some including myself for a while.

By all means people should consider carrying a flashlight to light up the dark places and increase their visibility when that's useful. To expect more is likely unrealistic and may be dangerous for reasons others have noted.

Bill D.


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## Topper (Apr 14, 2006)

Hi Phil, I have not read your book nor any other book on "flashlight defense"
I am inclined to "assume" it is based largely upon Kubaton techniques. Is that correct or close or even way off base? I am familiar with the Kubaton and some folks would be surprised what a MiniMag can do (non light related) I hope my question is not out of line nor misconstrued as an insult if it is based mostly or loosely upon the Kubaton. I like the Kubaton and one the lights up is even better. The SF M4 can be most useful in traps and locks as well as pressure strikes. We need a little NINJA gremlin.
Topper


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## idleprocess (Apr 14, 2006)

PhilElmore said:


> As you've said, this is the danger of all self-defense training and all self-defense implements. The benefits of self-defense training and books containing self-defense information outweigh the risks, however; the alternative wold be utter defeatism.
> 
> ...
> 
> It is better to be prepared and go to your grave never needing such preparation than it is to hope for the best and have no plan (and no equipment). I hope that when I die of old age, I can say to myself, "Damn, I never needed that handgun, that knife, or that flashlight, not one time." I can live with that sort of "regret." Unfortunately, it already isn't true -- but that's the ideal.



_Pray to God, but row away from the rocks._
(attributed to Hunter S Thompson)


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## Lightraven (Apr 14, 2006)

Phil,

After spending a little time at your website, I have a few thoughts.

You say you are of average intelligence. I disagree. I think you have above average intelligence. In your introduction, you come across as basically modest and honest. You're also big enough that I'd be worried about getting in a tangle with you, whatever your martial arts experience.

However, police and military personnel are also "mere mortals." We know because they make mistakes and get killed all the time. Even the Special Forces and SWAT types are just people who worked very hard to get where they are. I have met and worked with dozens of them. 

In looking for any sort of instruction in life, a wise person goes to someone who has knowledge and experience in the area of consideration. In a few weeks, I am going to pay a lot of money to get some firearms/tactical training from people who I am certain have more experience and knowledge than I ever will. A lot more.

You have some knowledge, obviously, and perhaps some limited real life experience. A person with a blank slate as far as self-defense could benefit from this. However, in a marketplace for instruction in any field, one's experience and successes are important. When I look for books about investing, I only read them if the author has done very well as an investor, not a writer. This cuts my reading list drastically. However, I won't walk off any financial cliffs by following the advice of prolific Fools (Motley or otherwise).

Even more so with self-defense, a person must be sure the advice comes from a strong place, even if it says, "Hey, kid, don't do what I did." There are things we just can't know without experiencing them. This is not a criticism, because everybody makes different choices in life and sometimes circumstances never provide an opportunity to gain experience, even for members of SWAT and Special Forces. And, like you said, people with experience are reluctant to talk, let alone write, about it. 

You claim to approach your subject as distilling and writing down the wisdom of those with experience in an accessible way. This is good. Fighters aren't known for their communication skills. You may even want to get in contact with those who have the experience in whatever you wish to write about but not the will to write about it. That way, you can write, "Sgt. Joe Friday used his Mag lite to break the hand of a guy who grabbed his gun. It ended the fight." If you do this in your book, then that's great.


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## Delvance (Apr 14, 2006)

PhilElmore said:


> As you've said, this is the danger of all self-defense training and all self-defense implements. The benefits of self-defense training and books containing self-defense information outweigh the risks, however; the alternative wold be utter defeatism.


 
Yep, definitely. No comments there. Have nothing against flashlight defense, as long as the user knows it's not to be 100% relied (which once again, i'm sure your book addresses). It's an interesting topic.


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## edakoppo (Apr 14, 2006)

Topper said:


> Hi Phil, I have not read your book nor any other book on "flashlight defense"
> I am inclined to "assume" it is based largely upon Kubaton techniques. Is that correct or close or even way off base? I am familiar with the Kubaton and some folks would be surprised what a MiniMag can do (non light related) I hope my question is not out of line nor misconstrued as an insult if it is based mostly or loosely upon the Kubaton. I like the Kubaton and one the lights up is even better. The SF M4 can be most useful in traps and locks as well as pressure strikes. We need a little NINJA gremlin.
> Topper



I'm not Phil, but have been acquainted with him long-distance for several years, written articles for his magazine, and this subject is a favorite of mine.

Firstly (before anyone else raises this point), the Mini-M*g is not a makeshift--it was expressly designed as a Kubotan by one of the first graduates of Kubota's program; he just so happened to work for M*g. Your description of a "Kubotan that lights up" is very accurate as far as that goes.

Secondly, the Kubotan instruction that Kubota gives (based on his books Action Kubotan, Official Kubotan Techniques, and Close Encounters and his video) focuses mainly on flailing with one's keys to make an opening, and a lot of joint lock/pain compliance holds. IMO, these are not suitable for the average person. They are theoretically suitable for police, bodyguards, security personnel, and doormen/bouncers, who have a professional liability issue in avoiding injury to assailants (Kubota originally intended this to supplement the police baton for male LEOs, and to _replace_ the baton for female LEOs, the latter of which was a drastic overreach). 

Even there, I think the key flailing has little value. It is unlikely to be effective unless you've got something like a minimum of 1-1.5 pounds of keys, enough to actually create some impact. Even in this instance, it's better to use old or defective keys rather than risking loss of or damage to keys you might need after the confrontation. There is also the possibility of facing a legal issue after the fact, and you might have to justify why you would carry a keychain full of useless keys, over and above the keys you would normally carry, if you were not "looking for a fight" and "carrying them as a weapon."

Thirdly, pressure points are another iffy subject when your life and safety are on the line. Being able to call your shots along "meridians" in the heat of an assault is unlikely to say the least, and the effect of pressure points (either as pain or so-called "light force knockouts") on an enraged, determined, drugged, drunk (or all of the above) attacker is likely to be underwhelming at best. This video points out the abject failure of pressure point techniques in a demonstration, unless used on true believers of the system.

Lastly, Phil's instruction (based on his earlier article; I'm awaiting my copy of the book) is based in hitting the bad guy, and to some extent using the light to disorient the attacker at some point during the engagement.  A pocket stick, the basis of his instruction, is meant to hit with in order to be able to escape the situation, rather than holding the bad guy there in some compliance hold waiting for the cops, and/or the bad guy's buddies who might take issue with your actions.


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## ronz (Apr 14, 2006)

overhere firearms are not alowed, there is a 5d mag near my frontdoor.

had to use it twice[succesfully] against car stereo thieves and would be burglars:devil:


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## txaggiechl (Apr 14, 2006)

Not to be a party-pooper, but unless we're talking about a 4+ D-cell Maglite, a damn Surefire is NOT a weapon by itself. Unless your Luke Skywalker and have a light saber... :laughing: 

It's simply a tool to assist your primary (handgun/knife/club/martial arts).


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## PhilElmore (Apr 14, 2006)

> In a marketplace for instruction in any field, one's experience and successes are important.



I would dispute the emphasis on credentials, however, when the information presented to you is obviously simple, common-sense, logical advice, regardless of provenance. As I said, there is no shortage of books by people whose real-life experience dwarfs those of the rest of us. I have spent enough time studying self-defense that I believe I, too, have helpful and useful information to offer. I am never *anything but honest* about my background and where I am coming from. The reader is free to choose accordingly.



> This is the problem I now have with the idea of "blinding" an attacker with a "tactical" flashlight of say, 60 to 100 lumens, now that I've started using my head instead of believing the Surefire hype. How effectively are you blinded by a car's headlights in an urban night setting? Do those thousands of lumens render you impotent to attack someone?



The temporary disorientation produced by a dramatic increase in lighting is not something you can count on, no. It cand and does work, but the pocket torch as self-defense tool is primarily a _striking weapon_, rather than a light. The lighting feature is more a bonus that adds utility to your flashlight-pocket-stick.



> Hi Phil, I have not read your book nor any other book on "flashlight defense"



As far as I know, mine is the first to treat the flashlight as a weapon by itself. There are other books on low-light fighting that cover using the light in conjunction with firearms and other weapons (as txaggiechl mentioned -- and I would dispute the dismissal of the light by itself, as it is a powerful striking implement).



> I am inclined to "assume" it is based largely upon Kubaton techniques. Is that correct or close or even way off base? I am familiar with the Kubaton and some folks would be surprised what a MiniMag can do (non light related) I hope my question is not out of line nor misconstrued as an insult if it is based mostly or loosely upon the Kubaton.



I'm not insulted at all -- you are absolutely correct. The book does indeed focus on the use of the light as a yawara/palm stick/kubotan and employs common-sense techniques universal to those methodologies.


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## david-me (Apr 14, 2006)

Edited for my useless comments.


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## Paul_in_Maryland (Apr 14, 2006)

Phil,
I've just ordered your book. I'm your basic civilian who has never touched a gun and knows nothing about self-defense. If your book can provide me even three or four tips I can use, the $16 price (shipped) was well spent.

Is it my imagination, are are CPFers becoming less civil? Earlier this week, a member, out of simple curiosity, posted a survey designed to answer the same question posed by Government agencies, employers, and schools: "What race are you?" He was crucified, both in the forums and in private messages (PMs). Within hours, his thread was pulled and he felt it necessary to block incoming PMs.

For what it's worth, each time a CPFer asks, "How many lumens do I need to use my flashlight to blind an assailant?", he's attacked with the same religious fervor I've seen here. I am simply amazed how quickly some people make the determination, "I'm smart enough to know that this mode of defense has its limits, but others are not." In this case, the criticism is coming from people who haven't even read your book.

The first time I experienced this sort of condescension--let's call it what it is--was when I suggested that the standard-issue Bibles be highly illustrated. "I'm not so sure that would be a good idea," cautioned an architect in my congregation. "Some people might get the idea that that's what the characters actually looked like."

He meant, of course, "people who aren't as smart as I am."


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## bfg9000 (Apr 14, 2006)

Paul_in_Maryland said:


> Is it my imagination, are are CPFers becoming less civil?


 I dunno, but it seemed to surface after one particular member posted about blinding an aggressive driver




.

A flashlight does substitute for a "roll of quarters" as a brawl weapon, but the prudent person will retreat to cover or the overwhelming force in their car trunk rather than stand their ground with a roll of quarters. I know the first thing I would reach for is not a flashlight.

IMHO the first impulse should always be to retreat, simply because the attacker has the advantage of surprise, and some distance is needed to properly assess the threat.


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## g36pilot (Apr 14, 2006)

I too just ordered the book. Something that my be glossed over here is that fighting with a flashlight is probably not intended to be the ultimate defensive technique but rather being the most effective with the tool you have at hand.

Depending on what hat I'm wearing at work or off duty, I'm equipped (or not) as allowed by legal authorization or local law. I also cross train to put extra knowledge and experience in my personal tool box. Some techniques work well for me some don't, but I don't limit myself to one discipline or tool.

Thanks for sharing your experience Phil.


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## PhilElmore (Apr 14, 2006)

> I've just ordered your book. I'm your basic civilian who has never touched a gun and knows nothing about self-defense. If your book can provide me even three or four tips I can use, the $16 price (shipped) was well spent.



It is my firm belief that the book can indeed help you, Paul. Thank you.



> Is it my imagination, are are CPFers becoming less civil? Earlier this week, a member, out of simple curiosity, posted a survey designed to answer the same question posed by Government agencies, employers, and schools: "What race are you?" He was crucified, both in the forums and in private messages (PMs). Within hours, his thread was pulled and he felt it necessary to block incoming PMs.



I couldn't say, as I don't post here often enough to have a feel for trends like that. I do know that my most vocal critics have such low post counts that they probably registered here only to attack me. That's pretty common -- it's a typical outcome of discussing the martial arts and self-defense online. A lot of ego is wrapped up in these topics and there are a lot of folks on boards related to it who just never grew up. Still, the reasoned and thoughtful responses, pro and con, have far outweighed this kind of thing. That is a tribute to CPF in general, I think.



> IMHO the first impulse should always be to retreat, simply because the attacker has the advantage of surprise, and some distance is needed to properly assess the threat.



There are times when retreat is not an option. Any rational person avoids violence when possible.



> I dunno, but it seemed to surface after one particular member posted about blinding an aggressive driver



Lighting up someone can indeed escalate a confrontation -- but as someone who also aspires to live an assertive lifestyle (the philosophy of martialism) I believe there are times when this is a viable option. There is an assumption of risk involved whenever you confront someone about their obnoxious behavior; we can live our lives following the Glorious Path of Least Resistance, or we can stick up for ourselves when we deem it appropriate.



> I too just ordered the book. Something that my be glossed over here is that fighting with a flashlight is probably not intended to be the ultimate defensive technique but rather being the most effective with the tool you have at hand.



Exactly. I carry a handgun, I carry a knife, and I carry a flashlight. I know which one I'd _rather_ have if given the option. I am not always given the option, however.

Thank you, everyone, for taking the time to respond to this -- and I especially thank those who've purchased the book based on this conversation. Please let me know what you think -- my e-mail is on my webpages.

*Edit to add a clarfication:* In rereading this I realized it may not have been clear that I see yawaras, palm sticks, kubotans, and any other small dowel-shaped object as synonymous. I make no claims to representing specific programs of instruction for a flavor of one or the other of them. It was correctly pointed out that the methodology in my book is based on striking an attacker with a rigid object -- certainly not key-flailing him or attempting pain compliance techniques (not in this book, anyway).


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## bfg9000 (Apr 14, 2006)

Just to clarify, I do not think there was anything _wrong_ with Paul's thread (or Phil's) that should elicit direct attacks on the OP. It was just the first time I noticed such uncivil behavior here.

Phil has every right to write what he believes and sell it as a book, as a self-defense enthusiast. Everyone must realize it is necessarily an opinion piece because no one person can have that much experience with the subject, and there is nothing wrong with that. As long as it is promoted as a last-ditch survival method, I have no objection. It's just that the flashlight-modification enthusiasts here would probably like to see more on things like strike bezels, lanyards or tonfa side handles for Mags.


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## edakoppo (Apr 15, 2006)

PhilElmore said:


> As far as I know, mine is the first to treat the flashlight as a weapon by itself. There are other books on low-light fighting that cover using the light in conjunction with firearms and other weapons (as txaggiechl mentioned -- and I would dispute the dismissal of the light by itself, as it is a powerful striking implement).



Hate to say it, but the first was actually Defensive Tactics With Flashlights by John Peters. Admittedly it was written for LEOs at a time when the heavy Kel or M*g lights were the state of the art, and before various LE agencies began banning their use. Also, the book focused mainly on using the light as a blocking tool rather than making direct impact, although that was a small part of the book. There was also some material in using the light with a handgun, IIRC.


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## Rob187 (Apr 15, 2006)

I'd be very interested in the book but only if there is a chapter on techniques I could use when defending myself using only a Photonlight.

I'm pretty sure that a Photonlight would be good when defending from vicious ants or maybe even violent cockroaches.

You cannot be serious....


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## mykall (Apr 15, 2006)

I gots to think that about all that could be said on the subject would cover about the same amount of verbiage as an average Ogden Nash poem:

"Perp. and I we had a fight
I hit (w/mag) Perp. bit 
we quit."

Ogden Nash



MB


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## AlexSchira (Apr 15, 2006)

In regards to some one saying that the Mini Maglite was purposely designed as a pocket stick...That certainly explains a bit, if it is true. I'm holding one right now, and holding it in my fist with the bezel out toward my thumb, it does indeed put my fist into a secure striking structure. 
In regards to the topic starter in question, I will admit that I am an active member of that website which you aren't exactly a fan of. I am also a competing sport fighter, as you call it. Phil, we have very different beliefs when it comes to unarmed combat and the mentality regarding it. I have to admit that Bullshido sometimes takes to your debatable subjects in a less than intelligent manner. I have been an active member of candlepower for a few months because I enjoy a well-made ilumination tool for the purpose of emergencies and simply situations where a flashlight is nice to have. 
I'm not going to start arguing about relying on a small flashlight as a weapon for the sole purpose of asserting my survival abilities as an accomplished boxer.
When it comes to being prepared for both disasters and daily life, I have no grudge against or even complaints against you. Your articles and product reviews are very well written and easy to understand on multiple levels of understanding, ranging from a flashaholic noting your reliance on common AA cells in your blackout-kit to a Joe Sixpack realizing why he should carry at least a Mini-Mag in his cargo pants. 
When it comes to dealing with other human beings in a confrontation, we have very different views. You're not going to pull your magazine back-issues and start selling MMA pamphlets. And your 'fans' aren't going to stop picking apart what they believe to be inferior martial arts education. But this is no reason to take this argument to a neutral party such as this fine forum where you are simply doing business, I just want to point out that you don't come the workplaces of my fellow Bullshidoki and make things difficult like a few have in this thread. 
In the world of fighting and the philosophy behind it, we are polar opposites and may stay that way as long as we may live. But in the world of flashlights and being prepared, we're both on the same side when it comes to helping the lesser or simply wrongly educated prepare themselves for whatever happens. I'm not going to buy your book because my studies as a fighter clash with yours and this wouldn't help me in a dark alley. If you were to sell a book about emergency kits, I'd buy a few copies and lend them out to friends. 
This isn't the place to argue our beliefs as fighters. This is a place to talk about flashlights.


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## edakoppo (Apr 15, 2006)

AlexSchira said:


> In regards to some one saying that the Mini Maglite was purposely designed as a pocket stick...That certainly explains a bit, if it is true.



This came from Massad Ayoob, who also attended Kubota's first kubotan class. I thoroughly disagree with Kubota's POI, but I've never known Ayoob to lie about what he's written about or taught.


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## RoninPimp (Apr 15, 2006)

http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php?name=FAQ&myfaq=yes&id_cat=5

-I would personally never buy a book from someone that has zero MA teaching credentials and very limited actual MA experiance. The limited self defense applications of flashlight use are easy enough to figure out without a book. Phil's shameless promotion never ends.


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## edakoppo (Apr 15, 2006)

RoninPimp said:



> I would personally never buy a book from someone that has zero MA teaching credentials and very limited actual MA experiance. The limited self defense applications of flashlight use are easy enough to figure out without a book. Phil's shameless promotion never ends.



Coming from a professional troll who has been banned at nearly every forum of which I am a member, this means less than nothing.


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## RoninPimp (Apr 15, 2006)

edakoppo said:


> Coming from a professional troll who has been banned at nearly every forum of which I am a member, this means less than nothing.


-You are confused if you think I am a troll. I have never been banned for breaking forum rules on any forum. That is not the issue of this thread anyway. Phil's lack of credentials and experiance are facts. I feel the members here should know this since he is spamming the board.


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## g36pilot (Apr 15, 2006)

Let's judge the book on it's merits. Is it valid or not? Let's debate specifics.

After I've read the material, I'm willing even though I don't think this is the right forum.


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## PhilElmore (Apr 15, 2006)

> Coming from a professional troll who has been banned at nearly every forum of which I am a member, this means less than nothing.



There you have it.

These kids never tire of following me around and stalking me, complaining about the fact that I contribute productive work to the field of self-defense. They love to reference Bullshido's ridiculous FAQ file on me but somehow never manage to *reference my rebuttal of it*. They love to complain about my "credentials" but never manage to point out that I state *quite plainly what my background is and is not, and proudly so*. They love to criticize *my work* but have no work of their own to which they can point. I have produced scores of articles in print and virtual publications (my own and others). I have published multiple books. The people who magically appear to attack me whenever I discuss my work online have created nothing but hundreds of kilobytes of angry, petulant complaint. When called on their trolling, they scream and whine about the injustice such a judgment does them. It is really very tiresome.



> Let's judge the book on it's merits. Is it valid or not? Let's debate specifics.
> 
> After I've read the material, I'm willing even though I don't think this is the right forum.



That's all I ask. I am confident that the book is good and that it will indeed stand on its own merits.


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## RoninPimp (Apr 16, 2006)

PhilElmore said:


> There you have it.
> 
> These kids never tire of following me around and stalking me, complaining about the fact that I contribute productive work to the field of self-defense. They love to reference Bullshido's ridiculous FAQ file on me but somehow never manage to *reference my rebuttal of it*. They love to complain about my "credentials" but never manage to point out that I state *quite plainly what my background is and is not, and proudly so*. They love to criticize *my work* but have no work of their own to which they can point. I have produced scores of articles in print and virtual publications (my own and others). I have published multiple books. The people who magically appear to attack me whenever I discuss my work online have created nothing but hundreds of kilobytes of angry, petulant complaint. When called on their trolling, they scream and whine about the injustice such a judgment does them. It is really very tiresome.
> 
> ...


-The indisputable FACTS are: I am not a kid. I am a 35 year old man with 20 years of martial arts experiance. You are an inexperianced martial artist writing books and articles on the martial arts. You are spamming this message board. I did not follow you here. I was registered here before you, though I don't think I've posted but a handfull of times. I was lurking quite some time before I registered. Not every martial artist that disagrees with your opinions is a troll from Bullshido, even if Bullshido is one of the many places they post. Those are the FACTS. People can go to Bullshido if they want the nitty griity. This is not the message board for those details.
-Philip Proctor


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## Blindspot (Apr 16, 2006)

I have nothing of value to add, however, I can't help myself.

I absolutely see the value of certain flashlights as weapons. I suspect that if you put an appropriately shaped flashlight in the hands of someone that had a good understanding of, and some practical experience at, kicking the *** of another, they would put it to good use.

I once fought with a guy while I was armed with high quality pair of nunchaku. He won. His weapon was....a pillow. Yup. A regular, off the bed, pillow. He employed it as a shield and blinding/smothering weapon. Fortunately, we were friends, so he stopped short of killing me.

I carry a knife most of the time. I can deploy it quite quickly, am familiar with methods of striking an opponent with it in decisive manners, and I often use it to cut things as well. I am not allowed to carry firearms due to bad behavior as a younger person. I am probably not even supposed to carry the knife, but I digress.

When considering a flashlight as a weapon, I would apportion its usefulness as follows:

Blinding your opponent - 1 second window of opportunity and 20% effective, at night or in the dark only.

Striking, lacerating or disabling your opponent - 50 - 95% better than your naked hand, but not as good as a mace or other hardened or pointy cudgel. 

I will try to withhold my comments regarding what I think about the author of this thread. Ahhh...I can't. Put away all your guns and knives, and get in the ring with a real martial artist. No, not those sissy MMA guys. (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8762652198751834650&q=fedor&pl=true) Fedor, ha! What a wuss. I'm talking about the champions of professional wrestling - any one of them could throw a suplex on you or hit you with a folding chair before you could get your doughy hand to your holster and put that substitute ***** of a handgun into play, fellah.

Oh, I’m not buying your book.


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## hquan (Apr 16, 2006)

Should this thread be moved to the CAFE as the main purpose deals more with fighting techniques and book impressions vs. being mainly about lights? Also, it is turning into polarized views about the OP's credibility... I'm not quite sure how to get a moderator to review this though... 

In my opinion, this all simplifies to 1 question that needs to be answered. I'm not a LEO or fighter - so I'm not qualified to answer it. 

1 - is a flashlight an effective self defense tool for a lay person (untrained)? (I believe that there are many other posts covering this). 

If the answer is NO then nothing else matters. 

If the answer is YES - then any good information is better than no information. BUT - no information is better than BAD information. This is where book reviews come in. No offense Phil - but in topics where I know I am ignorant, I tend to let the professionals guide me - so I won't be interested in purchasing it until it has been properly reviewed.

When it comes to my life I'd rather not depend on my "common sense" to determine whether the information is good or bad. Common sense is not something that you're born with - it is developed through your experience and other people's experience as you grow. Case in point - something that is "common sense" to someone very familiar with computers - such as the command "Press ANY key" - is NOT common sense to someone who's never seen a computer. When it comes to fighting and survival situations, I don't have enough experience to know what will work and what will get me killed - a lot of things sound good on paper but don't work in real life (I'm not saying that your book is not based on techniques that don't work). My point is that until it has been reviewed, I've no interest in purchasing it.

Also, I've never heard of Bullshido before today - but you may want to reconsider how you respond to them - calling them kids, and their complaints petulant, etc. is less than becoming and does not help you create a professional image with those who are not already familiar with your work.


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## PhilElmore (Apr 16, 2006)

RoninPimp said:


> -The indisputable FACTS are: I am not a kid. I am a 35 year old man with 20 years of martial arts experiance.



Then you should be ashamed that you are a 35-year-old man who behaves and writes like a kid.



> You are an inexperianced martial artist writing books and articles on the martial arts.



I have a decade and a half of relevant martial arts experience and, unlike you, I am a published author. This makes your assessment of whether I _shold_ be a published author irrelevant.



> You are spamming this message board.



I am posting a relevant topic on which many people have chosen to comment because they found it worthwhile.



> I did not follow you here. I was registered here before you



Yet I, who registered here two years ago, have more posts than do you. You do nothing but follow me from board to board, stalking me. This behavior is obvious and part of the reason you have been banned from many of the boards where I still participate.



> Not every martial artist that disagrees with your opinions is a troll from Bullshido, even if Bullshido is one of the many places they post.



That is true. You are, however, one of these trolls.



> Those are the FACTS.



Those are your biased OPINIONS. They bear little resemblance to facts.



> People can go to Bullshido if they want the nitty griity.



People can go to Bullshido if they wish to immerse themselves in the vulgar, ignorant rantings, threats, and insults of the largest and most notorious troll site devoted to the martial arts on the Internet. The credibility of anyone who takes such a site seriously must immediately be suspect.



> This is not the message board for those details.
> -Philip Proctor



Then you should not keep bringing it up and linking to it here, "Philip."



> If the answer is YES - then any good information is better than no information. BUT - no information is better than BAD information. This is where book reviews come in. No offense Phil - but in topics where I know I am ignorant, I tend to let the professionals guide me - so I won't be interested in purchasing it until it has been properly reviewed.



The book is good and will stand on its own merits. There is no "bad information" in it. Any _objective_ analysis of its contents will demonstrate that. There is, unfortunately, a small but dedicated contingent of trolls online who are anything but objective where I am concerned.



> Also, I've never heard of Bullshido before today - but you may want to reconsider how you respond to them - calling them kids, and their complaints petulant, etc. is less than becoming and does not help you create a professional image with those who are not already familiar with your work.



You would not say so if you had read the site. Trust me -- I would not dismiss an entire forum so quickly if not for the fact that it is every bit as bad -- and worse -- as I describe it. You would be hard-pressed to find a self-defense personality or martial artist of any notoriety who has not been slandered, defamed, insulted, and otherwise childishly mocked at the site. Its owner has a very high opinion of the "mandate" he believes the site pursues in identifying "fraud" in the martial arts -- but the reality is that the site is a vulgar pit of trolling that enables childish people to feel better about themselves by making fun of everyone else. This is not my opinion; it is an objective and independently verifiable analysis of what goes on at the site. All you have to do is spend some time reading the postings there to see what I mean. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

When I say that the credibility of anyone who takes that site seriously must immediately be suspect, I mean that. If they agreed with me and posted about how much they liked me, I would be very, very worried about what I was publishing.



> When it comes to my life I'd rather not depend on my "common sense" to determine whether the information is good or bad. Common sense is not something that you're born with - it is developed through your experience and other people's experience as you grow. Case in point - something that is "common sense" to someone very familiar with computers - such as the command "Press ANY key" - is NOT common sense to someone who's never seen a computer. When it comes to fighting and survival situations, I don't have enough experience to know what will work and what will get me killed - a lot of things sound good on paper but don't work in real life (I'm not saying that your book is not based on techniques that don't work). My point is that until it has been reviewed, I've no interest in purchasing it.



No amount of hero-worship or appeals to authority relieves us of the responsibility to analyze critically and logically, to the best of our ability to reason, everything we choose to believe and put into practice. Even the great and much-lauded experts in the field of self-defense frequently disagree with one another, loudly and angrily. If _they_ cannot agree, what hope is there for mere mortals? At the end of the day, no one an do your thinking for you -- and I certainly do not presume to do so. Any objective analysis of the material in my book will demonstrate that it is simple, easily applied, effective content that will help anyone.


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## david-me (Apr 16, 2006)

Edited for my useless comments.


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## david-me (Apr 16, 2006)

Edited for my useless comments.


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## PhilElmore (Apr 16, 2006)

No, I do not mock or rip on anyone who does not think neutrally or highly of my book. No one here has even _read_ the book; they cannot, therefore, have an opinion of its content that is based on that content.

There is a great deal of history between "Roninpimp" and myself; he has been stalking me for some time. He and a handful of like-minded critics can be counted on to crop up whenever I publish anything new. I have not responded to him or those like him in the same way that I have responded to other critical posts at this forum. Recognizing trolling for what it is hardly constitutes some lack on my part.

If spotting typographical errors is to be the extent of your contribution to this discussion, I don't see why you've bothered.


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## Topper (Apr 16, 2006)

Sometimes I wish I never posted in a thread, this is one of those threads.
I do not know Phil nor do I know his attackers/pals whatever. I think without double checking Paul in Maryland may very well be the only poster I have had any dealings with. Hi Paul sad thread huh?
Phil , I am thinking your pals/hater's might have more leeway in the CPFU as would you. CPF is normally much better behaved. I am surprised this thread has lasted this long. I am very familiar with the Kubaton and traps and locks used in short powerful "bursts" can be very effective to control an attacker.
Oh one last thing "key flaying" is not the best tactic as you know we agree on that. I hope you guys get this all sorted out...somewhere else. The Underground comes to mind.
Topper


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## david-me (Apr 16, 2006)

My intent is not to troll but more-so to put you into perspective.
I am a bit curious as to why you respond with such offensivly defensive language tactics. If you do have such a past and documented history with roninpimp as you say you do, then I belive you have every right to respond to him in the fashions that you have. I do also belive that you are doing so in the wrong place as it is in bad taste if you are to build a name for yourself, as experienced martial artists have mostly, if not completely, mastered self-control.
I think you would be better off with a disclamer, with both his link and your rebuttal, at the botton of your original post and ignoring those that would have you being led into any future altercations with those that entice you.

I will respectfully withdraw my previous post as they too are in-so-mush bad taste as they are usless. Please accept my apologies.


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## RoninPimp (Apr 16, 2006)

Anthony Ingleas (sp?) a former instructor of Phil's said this about Phil...
"Phil is a dead rank beginner with little skill"

Edited to correct a minor misquote. Sorry about that. I was going from memory.


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## PhilElmore (Apr 16, 2006)

> Anthony Ingleas (sp?) a former instructor of Phil's said this about Phil...
> "Phil is a dead rank beginner with no skill"



Oh, _please_. If you're going to quote people who do not like me, you should at least *quote them accurately*. Imagine that -- an instructor who was happy to have me promoting his school when I attended it suddenly developed a negative opinion of me _months after I left his school to follow another art_. (My current instructor in that art has a far different *opinion of me* than does someone holding a grudge against me for leaving, of course; that's the politicking so pervasive in the martial arts.

Ultimately, people will believe more or less what they wish to believe. Anyone who actually takes the time to read the book will get useful material from it -- and that is all that really matters to me.


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## hquan (Apr 16, 2006)

PhilElmore said:


> No amount of hero-worship or appeals to authority relieves us of the responsibility to analyze critically and logically, to the best of our ability to reason, everything we choose to believe and put into practice. Even the great and much-lauded experts in the field of self-defense frequently disagree with one another, loudly and angrily. If _they_ cannot agree, what hope is there for mere mortals? At the end of the day, no one an do your thinking for you -- and I certainly do not presume to do so. Any objective analysis of the material in my book will demonstrate that it is simple, easily applied, effective content that will help anyone.



I agree that ultimately one must make one's own decision - it's like going to the bathroom - no one else can do it for you. I was only pointing out that I would need to see what pros / cons the various reviewers have about your book. By comparing several different reviews, I'll get a decent idea as to whether or not it's a good purchase. For example if all of the reviewers say that technique A is very good and technique B will get you killed, then I'm inclined to believe that that is true. If technique C has mixed reviews, then I would need to decide whether it is appropriate for me. The value of reviewers is that they would (hopefully) have the experience and knowledge to spot things that a lay person would not. I am neither for nor against your book - my position is that I'll wait and see what the reviewers say. 

If the bullshido site is as you say, I would urge you to take the "high road" and ignore them. This verbal jousting does not put either party in a favorable light.

I certainly hope that your book does well as writing a book and getting it published takes a lot of effort.


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## dano (Apr 16, 2006)

This thread is *CLOSED*. It has gone too far into topics and personal attacks that should be dealt with privately.

Based upon the heated debate(s) contained, I'll strongly consider a temporary (or permanent) banning on anyone who attempts to restart this topic with the intent to continue the aformentioned behavior.

--dan


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