# The making of a reflector - The nCluster



## PEU (Jul 15, 2006)

While thinkering what to do next, and trying to be original, a task that is increasingly difficult given the resident talents we have here, I decided to do a reflector, but since Don already made single reflectors, thus rendering my idea non-original, I decided to make a cluster reflector.

The project is not finished yet, I still need to metalize, chrome or surface the reflectors to have a better idea of their abilities.

So far I made 2 designs, a cluster of 4 reflectors that resemble the IMS20 shape, and a deep reflector, thats intended to be a thrower.

The nice thing about this project is that the reflectors were made on a machine I built myself, I posted about it here 

And since every project needs a name, I called it the nCluster (neoca-cluster)

The cluster diameter in both cases fits within 40mm and the height for the shallow is 17mm and the deeper one is 29mm. 


If an image is a thousand words, this post is worth more 100000 

Concept






Raytracing













I always start my prototypes in a soft material:





Then I increase the hardness a little:









And then aluminium:





This was the first proto and it had many defects, the most visible one is the lines, these are mostly my fault because I didnt had at the time a ballnose mill and I used a flat one  

At this point I was happy, so I made a video (15mb, windows media) 

But then I continued, this one wasnt made on my machine but on a Haas VF0 professional Vertical Machining Center (VMC) as you can see there are still visible artifacts there.





Haas VMC on the left, my machine on the right




After some analisys, reading, and more trying I figured that the problem wasnt the machine but the CAM (computer assisted modeling) to put it shortly I was making routes based on a low quality aproximation of my CAD, thus the facets and lines, instead of nice curves.

Machining the deep reflector









Family photo:









Using a dremel I left an irregular surface on two reflectors and the third one was left mirror finish.

This is what I have now, these will be chromed to test them better than bare alu, and Im still looking for a shop to do the aluminization process, which is the correct way of coating a reflector.

I will try with more shapes in the future.

I hope you like my project.


Pablo


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## M_R (Jul 15, 2006)

Pablo,

That is a realy cool project!

I especially like the raytracing shots. Did you write the code yourself for the software, or is it an off the shelf app?

Can't wait for the real life beam shots!!

Cheers,

Matthew


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## Nitroz (Jul 15, 2006)

Nice work! How long does it take the machine to churn out one of these?

And, will you be selling these in the future?


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## PEU (Jul 15, 2006)

Nitroz said:


> Nice work! How long does it take the machine to churn out one of these?
> 
> And, will you be selling these in the future?



My machine takes around and hour, the Haas around 30min. The most time consuming task is the finishing.

Regarding sales of these... I never put that idea away when I start a project  for the time being its just a project...


Pablo


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## NewBie (Jul 15, 2006)

http://optics.mellesgriot.com/opguide/oc_5_1.htm
http://www.lambda.cc/PAGE69.htm

http://www.kruschwitz.com/HR's.htm

When looking at the charts, the human eye mainly works from 400nm to 700nm.

Remember, Aluminum will quickly oxidize during exposure to air. Adding a little car wax to your final polishing stage can delay this.


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## greenLED (Jul 15, 2006)

:bow:
Outstanding! :twothumbs

I'm  for the final results.

:thinking: would that square area in the middle have a negative effect on the beam pattern?


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## wquiles (Jul 15, 2006)

That is totally cool !!!

:goodjob:

Will


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## ouchmyfinger (Jul 15, 2006)

wow, :bow:

Great project.
Can you talk at all about the curve you used? Is it parabolic? Also, thats a pretty cool raytracing - how did you model the emitter - as a point, or a more accurate approximation?


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## BentHeadTX (Jul 15, 2006)

Great quad-flector 
Will your finished reflector go into a Mag mod? Imagine the thermal properties of an aluminum block sinking to the top of four K2's rapping out at an amp each? Better start saving some money just in case "one falls off the truck".


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## PEU (Jul 15, 2006)

For the raytracing and parabola I used an optics developing software, and for the emitter I simulated it using an emmiting rectangle with a dome, not sure about the accuracy of it  

One thing I can be sure, after I polished one of the reflectors I inserted a white lux3 in one of the holes and I see yellow all over, so if Im wrong Im not far from being right 

These shallow reflectors used 1.3mm die height and 0.7mm for the deep one.

Do we have a resident optics guru?


Pablo


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## jar3ds (Jul 15, 2006)

woah... that is cool...


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## bombelman (Jul 15, 2006)

Pablo, you amaze still amaze me...
Great efforts !!

I was just thinking, if this same configuration can be made,
to be just as small as regular reflectors, the reflector *might* line up for a 4die led, say the LuxV ?
Like I said, I was only thinking....

Cheers !!


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## Kiessling (Jul 15, 2006)

Cool 

Now ... my feeble technical mind starts thinking ... what if a reflector like that wouldn't have 4 LEDs but just one in the center ... a LuxV ... to remove the donut and focus this thing better?

bk


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## bombelman (Jul 15, 2006)

Kiessling said:


> Cool
> Now ... my feeble technical mind starts thinking ... what if a reflector like that wouldn't have 4 LEDs but just one in the center ... a LuxV ... to remove the donut and focus this thing better?
> bk



Just like I said in post #12 , no ? :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: 

Paraphrased  :lolsign:


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## PEU (Jul 15, 2006)

When I started testing the shallow cluster reflector I noticed that when the reflector shape is interrupted with the adjacent one (am I being clear:thinking the beam becomes part of the corona, so the longer the distance between the led and this opening, the more spot/throw you gain.

Doing what bombelman & bernie suggest would make the shape of the resulting reflector not 360deg & parabolic, thus, in my limited knowledge of optics, making it almost flood only.

Thats why I machined the deeper cluster, so more throw can be expected.

I cant wait either to see real beamshots, I hope a chromed surface will aproximate the results of an aluminized one.

I did some early testings, but took no photos, mostly because I was using a single luxeon and testing the individual reflectors.


Pablo


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## Kiessling (Jul 15, 2006)

bombelman said:


> Just like I said in post #12 , no ? :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
> 
> Paraphrased  :lolsign:




Oooops ... :huh:
Guess I am getting old here :sick2:

Wasn't there a rant sometimes back about people not reading the replies before they post?  


PEU ... looking forward to the real show, too! 

bernie


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## Icarus (Jul 15, 2006)

:wow: Great project. :goodjob: :twothumbs
Can't wait to see some beamshots.


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## CroMAGnet (Jul 15, 2006)

OMG! Way to go Pablo! 






Dibs on first run!


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## greenlight (Jul 15, 2006)

I hope this isn't already patented.


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## PEU (Jul 15, 2006)

well... in a ideal world if I publish a design before patenting it it becomes previous art if someone tries to claim for himself the invention.

So, since I don't have time and money to file a patent, I published it here, maybe is a hit in the future and I end up patenting it  

Pablo


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## JonSidneyB (Jul 15, 2006)

Peu,

That is very nice. I hope it is not patented as well. It is nice to see people to original work


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## ICUDoc (Jul 16, 2006)

Peu

Really looks great- keep us posted
Do you think production would also start as a cylinder? Seems like a lot has to go to find the reflector within....
Thanks for the cool photos


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## TENMMIKE (Jul 16, 2006)

any device that is placed in public domain looses its patentabilaty at 1 year, from time of placement in the public domain,iv done this stuff, the best you can do is file for a provisional patent (pat pend), that gives you the time to figure if its worth it to go thru the real process


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## PEU (Jul 17, 2006)

Its not my plan to patent, I prefer to leave it on the public domain. I may have second thoughts in the future, but this is what I think now 


Pablo


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## PEU (Nov 3, 2006)

After about 3 months of trying to find a metallizer shop I finally found one, here are some photos and beamshot against an Aleph3 Head

4x Lux3 in series






setup





Regulated power supply limited at 700mA





Aimed at the roof, compared with an Aleph3 powered by a nextgen 750





Hope you all like it.


Pablo


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## jtice (Nov 3, 2006)

Holy Hell Pablo !!!!!!! :rock:

how did I not see this till now? That is sweeeeeeet. oo:

:goodjob:
~John


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## greenLED (Nov 3, 2006)

:twothumbs:


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## metalhed (Nov 3, 2006)

PEU said:


> Its not my plan to patent, I prefer to leave it on the public domain. I may have second thoughts in the future, but this is what I think now
> 
> 
> Pablo



You're a good man, Pablo. 


Pretty damn good designer, too. :thumbsup:


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## McGizmo (Nov 3, 2006)

Nice work Pablo! :thumbsup:


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## PEU (Nov 3, 2006)

Thanks guys, here is another version of the same reflector, using state of the art machinery AKA a dremel  I turned the smooth surface into an irregular one, so the spot blends nicer with the corona:











Pablo


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## HarryN (Nov 3, 2006)

That is very nice work Pablo. Now for the real test - does it work with the Lux V ? 

Of course, after that, we are going to bug you for a 20 reflector version.


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## matrixshaman (Nov 3, 2006)

Now you just need the Cree XR-E version to start searing retina's


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## Ganp (Nov 3, 2006)

IMHO this is a GREAT project Pablo!!!! :rock:

I'm really looking forward to your final results... 

Colin,


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## nemul (Nov 3, 2006)

keep it up!


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## HarryN (Jul 4, 2007)

Just bumping this project to see if it is still going.


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## PEU (Jul 5, 2007)

HarryN said:


> Just bumping this project to see if it is still going.



Hi Harry, thanks for the bump. The project is a no go for the time being, let me explain you what is wrong (at least to me) with this kind of reflector arrangement: each reflector efective area is very small, as soon one reflector meets the next one the "hotspottable" part of the reflector is gone. So you end up with a small hotspot (compared to 4 regular reflectors clustered) and not big gains on the corona. I should compare it to other floody reflectors to see if its worth anyways...

Im still working on making decent reflectors as I posted in other threads, but this proved to be difficult.

I purchased a couple of machines that hopefully will help me a lot in this process (hobbyst CNC Lathe and CNC Mill) time will tell 


Pablo


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## LuxLuthor (Jul 5, 2007)

PEU said:


> Hi Harry, thanks for the bump. The project is a no go for the time being, let me explain you what is wrong (at least to me) with this kind of reflector arrangement: each reflector efective area is very small, as soon one reflector meets the next one the "hotspottable" part of the reflector is gone. So you end up with a small hotspot (compared to 4 regular reflectors clustered) and not big gains on the corona. I should compare it to other floody reflectors to see if its worth anyways...
> 
> Im still working on making decent reflectors as I posted in other threads, but this proved to be difficult.
> 
> ...



I thought this effort was cool as hell just to see and visualize how you did it, because it gives other creative ideas. I keep watching for all the ways that LED's can overtake incands for T-Lum, color, & throw. The other Tri/Quad separate reflectors and asphericial lens are other interesting approaches.


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## greenlight (Jul 5, 2007)

It looks heavy, too.


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## chesterqw (Jul 6, 2007)

if we could link this to the heatsink, it will seriously cool things down huh?


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## PEU (Jul 6, 2007)

I had an idea, I will send free samples to a couple of well known modders so we can have a better idea about how they compare, Mac (cmacclel) and Milky come to mind. What do you guys think?


Pablo


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## racer7 (Jul 6, 2007)

I think making some samples available is a good idea.
Should be to folks who have already built a quad led so a comparison model is handy.
My own thought is that unless apparent losses are large in this setup, it will have some utility if for no other reason than it makes doing a multiple setup simpler. The reflector holders recently made in a small batch by someone (where is that thread anyway?) have much of the same advantage, however. But there are multiple socket solutions for modded Mag incans so why not multiple reflector solutions for leds?

Interesting project

Regards,
Racer7


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## cave dave (Jul 10, 2007)

The new lightrider 3LED version of the Newt uses a similar concept reflector. Does the spill beam have multiple "lobes"
http://www.beyondbikes.com/mmbb/Images/large/ac_lig_trinewt.jpg


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## PEU (Jul 10, 2007)

racer7 said:


> I think making some samples available is a good idea.
> Should be to folks who have already built a quad led so a comparison model is handy.



Already contacted Mac, also sent a PM to Milky but no reply yet.

Regarding the trilobe bike light, I see each reflector only have their external walls, I guess this is on purpose to have more flood

To machine these, doing them on a CNC VMC would make them unafordable, if I ever do them the best method I found is stamping then in aluminium, only time will tell 


Pablo


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## Gryloc (Jul 10, 2007)

This was a nice project of yours. I was hoping that you did more work to create an improved product or something by now. Do you plan on generating more prototypes? 

I was wondering, have you though to do the math to find the optimum surface area (with the widest and deepest reflector design) while still minimizing the overall diameter of the quad reflector? You would have to use Calculus to find the max reflector surface with the smallest desired quad reflector diameter. This means doing away with certain parts of the 3D parabolic shape. You also have to consider wasted space, I suppose. I know that it is a big compromise. There has to be an optimal shape/design to get the best and brightest beam while keeping things small. That would be great, wouldn't it?

I tried to do some of the math, but my Calculus is still very limited and I do not have the drive to figure out such a thing. Well, good luck again with your design. I always liked the quad reflector profile, so I hope that you continue to pursue toying with the design of these!

-Tony


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## milkyspit (Jul 11, 2007)

Peu, you've got PM.


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## Norm (Jul 11, 2007)

Your reflector looks very similar to one I made a couple of months back Pablo, mine was made from 4 of DX's dropin module reflectors, this is out of the junk draw and fairly knocked about now. This was just filed by hand and super glued together but the idea is the same. It is very wrecked from bashing about with other junk. Not much hot spot but lots of flood.
Norm










PEU said:


> Pablo


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## greenLED (Jul 11, 2007)

Looks to me like you guys are onto something. Look at the pic of the new NiteRider TriNewt:

http://www.niterider.com/prod_trinewt.shtml

Looks like a 3-in-1 reflector cluster in there.


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## hmmr (Aug 23, 2007)

And now imagine a similar reflector on a 540 lumen triple rebel star


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## msxtr (Aug 23, 2007)

Enhorabuena Pablo, estás hecho un fenónemo, menuda luz!!!!!!! :thumbsup: (Congratulations Pablo, you are do a phenomenon, what great light!!!)

Greetings - Saludos

msxtr


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## Scattergun (Aug 24, 2007)

Would be kinda cool if you were to cut down the height of the pedestal in the middle and make holes for wiring in a fifth emitter in the middle... might add some spill to the rest....


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## flex76italy (Sep 26, 2007)




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## lukestephens777 (Sep 26, 2007)

What about putting a Red Lumileds Rebel smack bang in the middle, with 4 x Cree Q5's around the outside! It would help to make the light temperature more natural. What a light that would be!


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## PEU (Sep 26, 2007)

flex76italy said:


>



My offer to the modders I mentioned is still valid :wave:


Pablo


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## lotsaluck (Sep 26, 2007)

Good read... You might want to consider also having your CNC do the polishing and buffing. I do this with my customs with a final buffing of bee's wax to seal the aluminum from oxidizing. I then pot the entire lens assembly with an optically clear resin. 

Give it a try....


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## milkyspit (Sep 27, 2007)

PEU said:


> My offer to the modders I mentioned is still valid :wave:
> 
> 
> Pablo




Pablo, I'm all over that offer! Only thing is, I really have no idea what outer diameter to request for the cluster... that's what's been holding me up from taking you up on your offer! 

Maybe you should just send me whatever you've got sitting around, so long as it'll fit in a Maglite head. (If it fits in there, it would also fit in a SureFire turbohead should I decide to build into one of those.)


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## milkyspit (Sep 27, 2007)

lotsaluck said:


> Good read... You might want to consider also having your CNC do the polishing and buffing. I do this with my customs with a final buffing of bee's wax to seal the aluminum from oxidizing. I then pot the entire lens assembly with an optically clear resin.
> 
> Give it a try....




Hmm... that sounds like a great idea.

One question, and please forgive if it only serves to demonstrate my ignorance, how long would such a bee's wax buffing last... would it need to be reapplied periodically or stay in place, preventing oxidation for the foreseeable future?


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## PEU (Sep 27, 2007)

milkyspit said:


> Pablo, I'm all over that offer! Only thing is, I really have no idea what outer diameter to request for the cluster... that's what's been holding me up from taking you up on your offer!
> 
> Maybe you should just send me whatever you've got sitting around, so long as it'll fit in a Maglite head. (If it fits in there, it would also fit in a SureFire turbohead should I decide to build into one of those.)



Scott, tell me the diameter you want (I dont have big maglites) and your address and I ship one right away 


Pablo


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## lotsaluck (Sep 27, 2007)

milkyspit said:


> Hmm... that sounds like a great idea.
> 
> One question, and please forgive if it only serves to demonstrate my ignorance, how long would such a bee's wax buffing last... would it need to be reapplied periodically or stay in place, preventing oxidation for the foreseeable future?



No, it won't last forever (rats) but it gives a nice shine and doesn't interfere with the potting solution I use to fully protect the aluminum. You need to keep in mind that aluminum oxidizes the INSTANT it is exposed to air. More time with cause more but one reason adhesives don't work as well as they can on aluminum is the oxidation issue. If you really want to glue to aluminum parts together for good, apply the adhesive to both parts, then use a stainless steel wire brush to scrub the glue in. The glue will then fully attach to the aluminum and not allow air to to it caused the oxidation and the bond is truly strong. I say this to more fully explain the issue with the polish and why the bee's wax works. A high polish anodizing is also possible be keeping air away from the reflector with an inert gas during the entire process but its darn hard to do without automated equipment.


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## sysadmn (Sep 27, 2007)

PEU said:


> Scott, tell me the diameter you want (I dont have big maglites) and your address and I ship one right away
> 
> 
> Pablo



It would be way cool to put a different color LED in each quad just for the beamshots. Sort of an analog way to see what each LED contributes to the flood. Same with powering off one LED and taking a beamshot.


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## PEU (Mar 31, 2008)

It seems the chinese are catching up 

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.11922


Pablo


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## PEU (Mar 31, 2008)

doublepost...


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## A123Powered (Apr 8, 2008)

PEU said:


> It seems the chinese are catching up
> 
> http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.11922
> 
> ...


 

Or you can buy the whole module with the reflector relatively cheap:

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.9358


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