# Video (flood) underground lighting for under $200?



## nonotmethanks (Jan 15, 2007)

I have been reading posts over the past weeks looking for ideas on improving camcorder lighting for personal use underground. I would like to have 3 hours runtime under 8 lbs. for less than $200.

I have read several ideas but nothing is a great match so thought I would try a post. I am fairly electronics savy but have not worked with optoelectronics. I would much prefer a bought solution instead of ground-up homebrew.

The areas are rarely more than 20X40 feet. Certainly dirty with occasional moisture but not wet. Weight is not a great concern since equipment is backpacked but wouldn't want to lug more than 8 lbs. - with the other equipment everything becomes much heavier after a couple hours!

The Amondotech Illuminator 35 Watt HID Searchlight could work with an extra battery if the beam was not so narrow. The "hot spot" of the light would cause many video exposure issues so have to diffuse the light somehow. I don't know how that could be done (and safely for the light). Also don't know how much bumping the H.I.D. bulb can take if the backpack/light has to be dragged through an opening.

Keeping the battery power in the backpack is easy to do - also thought of using 10 NiMH 11000mah D-cells in a PVC walking stick for 12 volts and also mounting some sort of LED/reflector/heatsink arrangment.

I currently use Princeton-Tec Apex headlights and a handheld spot that I put an automobile halogen in. Two small 4AH lead acid give only about 1 1/2 hours usable time.

Thanks for any suggestions!


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## VidPro (Jan 15, 2007)

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## VidPro (Jan 15, 2007)

diffuse. the HID is a good choice for power vs light, if the BLUE is what you can film under correctally. but any cheap HID like the trailtec type things are not focusable, a good 1500$ video HID IS fully focusable and usually comes with a Incadescent filter (yellow) to match incan lighting. but whos got 1500$ for a light 
so the trick would be to use the cheaper HID, and use Difusion sheets at a distance from the lens to break the Spot into wide as needed.
either frosted glass that can take the heat, or difusion set at a distance from the light. use coat hangars and alagator clips to put the difusion in the right place, then switch in or out various levels of difusion as needed.

for battery a ni-mhy D cell 10x 1.2 would work good , but lithium-ion would be lighter. li-ion would have to be the 14.4 voltage then regulated from there, if the HID was designed for vehicle power, a 14.4 li-ion would work just fine. 

if i was still hauling Vid around in a backpack, i would get an external frame pack, and mount a pair of trailtecs (13 or 24) on the frame above my head, like a set of human headlights. that'd be fun, but i dont gorilla shoot no more, just thought of doing that for backpakcing, when i realised 3 little 5mm leds are enough light once your out of the city trash.


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## 65535 (Jan 15, 2007)

I would recommend a 3 cell lithium polymer RC back with a voltage cutoff device and a HID flood light from XeRay about $600 iono if you want to spend that much but that could give you many hours of runtime even at 50 wats. 35 watts would last probably 5 hours depending on the battery pack.


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## VidPro (Jan 15, 2007)

ya know cameras really dont have that wide of a viewing angle, that is why everything you see on tv, including HD is such a small portion of what the human would see if they were actually there.
so your average 25* light (on camera) is about close enough for most stuff, LEDs can have 25* so called Wide optics put on them, but the "White" leds are the worst kinda color you can try to shoot under or match with other types of light.
the video light i made to shoot video with "White" leds, had to have many other supporting colors of leds to get the color going, so the best i can figure with LEDs, if i go that route again, is to use RGB leds, which presents other issues of blotcheyness if not done correct.

just depends on what you video taping, if the colors you cant see anymore with leds  but leds are much easier to optically set to specific patterns, and the heat from the face of them doesnt present a issue with the difusion as much.

http://trailtech.net/store/single_hid_scmr16.html
Spot: 12 degree beam angle 
Flood: 36 degree beam angle 

cheapest good , nice looking self contained HID light i have found to date.


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## nonotmethanks (Jan 16, 2007)

Some good suggestions - thanks for the feedback.

65535 - I agree the $500 and over solutions are the better choice for video but I am faced with budget constraints. I also have been enough underground to know if you aren't willing to have something get damaged - don't take it. After my own body, the camcorder demands my attention at all times - would get nightmares seeing an XeRay falling down a 100 foot hole






VidPro - good points (I guess that is why you're the VidPro). The diffussion sheet suggestion may put the Amondtech back into play - still would be a $150 experiment. I have not tried them before - they melt easy? I did experiment with frosted glass and lexan but previously the lights were not strong enough - I lost too many lumens to make them effective - could try again. 

The lighting is not a width issue as much as would like to see a back wall which might be 40 feet away for background depth along with the main subject which is better lighted closer. 

I just recieved a dual 10 watt video light as a gift which works OK for closer stuff - 150min single/60min dual run time on 7.6v 2980maH lithium. Each bulb rated 40 lux at 10 feet, 15 lux at 15 ft, but only 3 lux at 32 ft.

Good reminder about the color issue. The rock colors are mostly browns with some black, dark green, and occasional reds. The white LED light from the Princeton Tec Apex headlamps plus the halogen spot combo is not too bad. I have never video taped with H.I.D. so don't know how that would be. 

The Trailtech light is interesting - many thanks for sharing. I had completely missed that one. 1850 lumens, has a good flood angle and is cheaper than the other HID bike/ATV lights I looked at, however, has the air flow/heat issue. The installation instructions say "These lights must always have some air flow on them when in operation. If vehicle is to be stopped for an extended period of time, turn the lights off." "5-10 mph air flow". Your external frame mount idea might work adding a heat sink or maybe if I mount it to a fibre-metal hard hat it will keep it cool enough - although my head may get too warm


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## VidPro (Jan 16, 2007)

oh man i didnt see that, the 13W ones will work without any extra air movement, because i use them on my motorcycle both moving and stationary, plus i and others use them for flashlights, they are only 100$ so 2 of them is good.
BUT they only come in 5* and 10* 

diffusion even if its called spun "glass" is usually some kinda high temp plastic, and ANY and all diffusion nukes the light and spews it all over the place very fast. spun glass type is very low in difusion and it still is like dimming the light (to the camera), but difusion does what you want it to do, spread it all about, instead of having it in one place.

think about it, you either have 1sq foot of bright light, or 50Sq feet of dim light, there is no 2 ways about it, as your covering 50X as much actual area when your no longer a Spot.

while it is high temp plastic i find that most hot lights will bake it, brown it, smoke it, if you dont give some air gap between the light itself and the diffusion, at least an inch away. but the distance it is away will change the diffusion occurance almost as much as changing the diffusion type. so some distance from hot bulbs is always desired, changes in distance of the diffusion is usefull to totally change the lighting.
with glass (frosted) if its not designed for high-temps it will just break as the temperature diferential and the expansion of the glass on the hot side. 

if your going to try and light a background AND a subject out in the dark, then really NO light at any single angle (on camera) will ever pull that off, in that situation you would have to have a keylight at least, something on your right or left, diffusion alone will do some of that. or enough total light back far enough to light the whole area up.

2 lights one dim one on the camera , slapping the subjects upside the head, and a second light brighter flooding the area, or hitting specifically any other areas that need lighting. 
the Problem is the cameras (including digital cameras) contrast ratio ability which is 1/10th what film can handle and 1/100th what the human eye can handle, so similar total light (Flat) is nessisary to attempt to see with a camera the way the human eye already does. Everything should be at about the same brightness unless you want major "effects".

take the example of "COPS" at night, what WE see on the boob tube is a partly light subject in the dark, but what THEY see there is the whole place light up like its xmas  and still all the backgrounds are barely visable.

for your 50 feet of set, you need more like 2000W of lighting, to get out of "gain" and be able to have things at all levels in focus, with HID 30W looks more like 100w so while you cant have a whole truckload of stuff, and light the planet, HID might be the best way to get portable light at the location.

some of the math i have heard is that light has a 16X falloff (or something like that) so as you double the distance from the subject, the light will light at 1/16th what it did. (based on a raw bulb) so again the further back the light is to light up everything similarly, the massive amount more you need, that is why i say 2 light closer for portable.


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## nonotmethanks (Jan 16, 2007)

VidPro - not sure what you mean by "keylight"

Since there are always at least two people - a light can be carried ahead of me and to the side to improve contrast/depth. I tried that experiment with a Coleman Northstar propane lantern (which is the white light in my avatar picture, the blue is a multi LED headlamp). The Coleman is too unfocused to be a good light for video, even when I tired using a small mirror as a reflector for it. A propane lamp is also bulky and the mantles too fragile for climbing/walking around underground.

My old Olympus OM1 35mm film camera takes the better pictures than the modern digital cameras we take - your contrast ratio explaination must be one reason why. 

Perhaps a solution is the Sony video light I was given mounted on the camcorder and another person about 15 feet ahead of me and 5 to 10 feet off to a side with the Amondotech or Trailtech with a mounted diffusion sheet a couple inches away.

Have you used HID for video? 

I take my older Sony DCR-TRV17 camcorder - reluntant to take a newer one into such a dusty/dirty environment. I currently use Premiere Pro 2.0 to increase the saturation and brightness - which makes the video grainy of course.


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## petersmith6 (Jan 16, 2007)

how about a UK100 light cannon?10 wat hid 4 hours on recharables(5 amp powerizer NiMh)waterproof to 500feet.i get 70 mins of out of water use befor the thermal cut out kick in,but if you you in to caving the occational dunk in water should cool it down


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## VidPro (Jan 16, 2007)

ohh this is funny, i thought you were doing underground video, not Under GROUND video , ok i am awake .

"key light" is thier term for just what your talking about, putting it to the side a bit as opposed to straight on, or on the camera.

yup your 10W on cam light with the 30-50W (about) of light from a side would work good. the on cam light and a "key" light. that would probably be a minimum.

notice how BLUE your headlight looks, and how yelowish/amber the mantle light looks, generally you would want both lights to have the same coloration, unless you like the differance.


HID is bluer than daylight even, unless you put a yelowish amber filter on it. filters on light can make them similar mostly.

so that brings up COLOR, we know that video cant handle Contrast, and that is a major issue, well it also is very pickey about the color of light, a human eyes adjust to color changes, cameras have to be adjuted for ONE of them . 
also generally speaking tv video stuff has more color than reality.
and lots of people have thier color on thier tvs higher or lower (or totally wrong) depending on how they like to see tv.
so the color of your light , unless you want effects and like that, is very critical. 

you can see the color differances easily in your little pic.

white leds are a lot like the color of the HID, daylight color. incadescent is very yelloish compared to it.
white leds are really just blue leds with yellow phosphors, so they have a huge gap in thier color spectrum.

i have had to shoot under everything including sodium vapor (ugly arse yelow red stuff) mercury vapor , the 101 colors of florescent available, Mixes of color like light through windows, and all that stuff which can drive ya up the wall. generally i need to have the colors all look like they DID originally, no art for me only science. 

in your situation effect lighting caused by light color differances coud be an assett, UNLESS specific colors of things are important, like if your trying to relate to geologists who wont understand why your rocks arent the right color 

if you didnt want effect lighting or color differances to show up, then your going to need all the same kind of light, and to balance the camera to that type of light. every light TYPE has some coloration differance its easiest to use only 1 TYPE of lighting when you want all the same color.


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## nonotmethanks (Jan 16, 2007)

petersmith6 - dive lights have looked interesting but I know nothing about them except what I read.

I examined web pages on the Underwater Kinetics Light Cannon 100. The 450 lumen rating seemed a bit low if I am going to try to diffuse the light for video but I'm not sure. The review at Flashlightreviews.com turned me off to it a bit since he claims the bulb is fragile but I have read the HID threads here and I am less concerned about that. More on point, however, the light beam seemed too narrow for video purposes - although I have not yet seen a beam comparison with the UK "wide angle lighting filters included for video lighting". There is not much water around where I go so usually I can't dunk it, could use some bottled water perhaps. 

I haven't completely dismissed the Light Cannon - just seemed other solutions may be a better fit for me.


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## VidPro (Jan 16, 2007)

if i was trying to bring OUT the color , in a cave i would chose RGB led, as only with RGB have i ever seen such beutifull colors out of natural items, every other kind of light including incandescent and even the sun can't compare to a fuller and more balanced spectrum of RGB lighting.
so for the best possible "white" light it would be some RGB design that is blended to insure there is no spotyness of the colors.

every type of light has big holes in its total spectrum.

if i was trying to make a cave beutifull and vegas pretty, instead of its natural state, i would have colored light everywhere like they do in the "caverns" ya know where they run people through on tours and collect money


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## nonotmethanks (Jan 16, 2007)

VidPro - I have noticed the (extreme) light color impact on video. The avatar picture is not the Princeton Tec Apex (which is much whiter). I would expect then HID, like the white LED, then will tend to "wash out" certain of the rock colors. I would probably rather have that since its closer to natural than the "las vegas" treatment.

I could get Luxeon K2 in R/G/B colors to build an array but then I would have the homebrew challenge/adventure. I can try to learn optoelectronics but then its going to feel like another project for work rather than my recreation. Unless you know of RGB lighting preassembled already


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## VidPro (Jan 16, 2007)

there are some "wash" lights in rgb that are preassembled but they are way beyond budget. thier design is for shooting a screen on a stage to change the colors to anything. they would be enough leds and blend well enough, by using many many 5mm leds of all 3 colors.
so other than big money, ya right trying to go RGB would be way out of budget.
color kinetics , stuff like that, can be 600$ for a mere 25 watts.

there are now strip lights in rgb too, made with multiple 5mm leds, it stil has that issue of diferent voltages for each color, making the controller parts of it harder than the assembly of many little leds.

http://www.theledlight.com/RGB_bars.html
60* output :-( so its a bit to wide, but it would assist in the assembly, i thought about these , but it would take a large ammount of them.


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## Xzn (Jan 16, 2007)

I'd say start thinking more economically and use compact flourescent. Use a bunch of those 23 watters that output 100 watts for about $0.50 at your local walgreens.


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## 65535 (Jan 16, 2007)

What about ceiling mount flourescent beams you could take them down 1 at a time and set them up semi perminately. I have another idea what about a bunch of Lumens factory LA and wiring them up in clusters? they can be wired in parallel on a number of voltages. They are about $15 average a piece and are solid aluminum reflectors with (maybe) a potted bulb.


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## Meduza (Jan 16, 2007)

Just use a cheaper HID with theatre light diffusion filters and a color correction filter if you need it for the colors sake. Amondotech Illuminator would be a good one with its 4200k bulb, even if it is little over your weight limit.


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## nonotmethanks (Jan 21, 2007)

Looks like the amondotech illuminator HID lantern and get diffusion filters is what I am going to buy. Still considering NiMH 11000mah D cells vs. 7.2V lithium-ion packs and if that is worth the money compared to heavier but cheap lead-acid.

I looked at fluorescent since that appears widely used in video. There are many 12 volt circuit schematics on the internet for driving them. It turned out to be a bit more complex than at first glance when looking for quality light output with battery efficiency. CPFL lanterns are cheap but not very practical because would have to lug too many. If i was just staying in one place for an extended period vs. crawling through holes - having 10 or more of them lighting a room would be the great. Backpacks are better when they are slim/long vs. sticking out.


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## VidPro (Jan 21, 2007)

ni-mhy is a good choice, li-ion only if you need to save weight badly, and have either the bucks or the skill to make it all work right. like now thay have some very nicely done packs for 12v type sources.

Florescent has the problem of the quantity, and therfore size like your saying, and also its efficient untill you try to shape it to 25* , in most florescents your going to have to do a lot of reflecting, or just area lighting the whole place. but it never has to be diffused.
trying to hit a wall 40 feet away with florescent, will work if you put it THERE, where its needed.


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## nonotmethanks (Jan 29, 2007)

I got the Amondotech Illuminator and took it underground for some camcorder video tests. After some in store testing, I bought a thicker (.050 ?) Lucite "cracked ice" ceiling lighting panel. I used a dremel tool to custom fit a piece over the Illuminator glass. It disperses the light very very nicely. I did not notice any heat problems, but the underground temperatures are cooler this time of year.

I was pleasently surprised just how well the 4200K H.I.D. works with video - it really brings the colors out in the rocks. It was worth the little extra money for the better bulb.

I am looking forward to great videos and the test convinced me to invest in making or having done a NiMH battery pack to cut down on weight and get longer run times.


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## 65535 (Jan 29, 2007)

Sounds nice got any pics of the final job?


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## nonotmethanks (Jan 29, 2007)

Here is my first attempt at some pics using imageshack. 

I made the diffuser by cutting a template (using paper plate) then using the dremel tool. I cut it so it press fits into the front of the AI. I can lift it out when I want just the spot. The target has 1 inch hash marks (with 6 and 12 noted) and the AI is 4 feet away from the target. Pictures were taken in a dark room. Because the wall is white, the pics had to be taken to show the effect without over exposing. It actually relects off the wall and lights up all around me.


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## tagcaving (Feb 6, 2007)

I had the same problem, needing a light for taking short video clips in a cave with my digital camera. To capture the momment, I need to have a video light that was instant on demand. The answer was to put a 10w HID light on my helmet. After looking at the costs and thinking about the problems of putting several lights on my head, with one that was very expensive and bright but only used sparinginly, I figured why not just run the HID as my main cave light all the time and pack a few cheap LED lights as backups. 


I ended up getting a 10w HID, putting the battery inside the helmet. I recently did a 16 hour cave trip and ran the HID as my main caving light the whole time. It ran 9 hours straight, 25% at 12w (600 lumens) and 75% at 7w (350 lumens). I took an extra battery, swapped it for the dead one, and ran another 6 hours with 3 hours to spare. 

At max you can go 13 hours straight, pumping out 600 lumens the whole time!!! 

All I can say it is beyond amazing. 










This cave light makes the cave look like this, all the time.
http://image08.webshots.com/8/8/35/15/2980835150016024580aDrgkb_fs.jpg

Using the light from my headlight to expose the walls. http://image59.webshots.com/759/1/23/89/2120123890016024580aOsdbb_fs.jpg 

Shining it back down a hundred foot deep pit.
http://image59.webshots.com/459/2/1/8/2363201080016024580oVznzx_fs.jpg

Total cost came to around $850. Most of this was the headpiece, costing $600 with shipping. However, few HID lights in the market are regulated to run at 7W, has a ballast with 90% efficiency, and a low voltage cut off that shuts the light down when your lithium ions reach 3.0v/cell. 

For shooting video I plan on using a hollographic diffuser. 

This is not the price point you really wanted, but this is how you can go caving with a video light for 18 hours. 

Thanks,


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## Meduza (Feb 6, 2007)

Go get some samples of different diffusion films meant for theatre, they are quite cheap from your local theatre supplier.

Or start with order a free swatchbook from Rosco ( http://www.rosco.com ) and look what filter that should fit your needs and buy a sheet from your local supplier first after that.

I would guess that Rosco Supergel #114 (Hamburg Frost) would be suitable, but that is just a guess from a quick look at my swatchbook.


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