# 1765 Lumen P60 Quad XPG Silver Plated Copper Heatsink Direct Drop-in, in developement



## VanIsleDSM

So I had the idea to do this a while ago, I wanted to try and cram as much light as I could into the P60 format, with heat buildup being the limiting factor I knew multiple CREE XPGs would be the best choice to keep efficiency up.

I used a 1" diameter 4 LED optic and modified it to accept a 5th led in the center that has no optic, to add some flood.

5 mode boost driver from DX, 

High 800mA±20mA; Mid 450mA±20mA, Low 210mA±10mA; Fast Strobe 400mA±20mA; SOS:800mA±20mA

As soon as I received the P60 host I bought to build this thing, I knew I'd have to modify it. It was an unfortunate realization, but it's not really a big deal to do, and not only for the size of the driver was it necessary, but also because the P60 format was obviously never optimized for heat transfer, looks like it was originally designed for incan style.

Running 5 XPGs @ 800mA making for ~12.8W of output power, I wanted direct heatsink contact with the body of the flashlight.

How do all of these P60 modules cope? with the new MC-E and SST versions? They don't even directly touch the body of the light, huge amounts of light will be lost to heat, which will lower the efficiency and create more heat upon heat, your hand may even get as hot as if the light were getting proper heatsinking, but inside it'll be burning up, and losing serious performance.

At any rate, I had to slightly bore out the inside of the threads on the tube, and scrape a little off the inside part of the o-ring groove for the lens. There's a bit of gap as it won't close all the way, but the o-ring on this host is hugely thick, and therefore the groove is deep, I couldn't bore past it, or it would have easily fit. I have ordered a few different cheapo hosts to see how this module fits in each.

On a pair of fresh 16340s the draw is 1.8A. A little high, especially as the voltage drops, and current goes up further. I did a couple runtime tests though. With the blue "1000mAh" ultrafires that are hugely oversized I only got 13min on high. With the newer black trustfire "880mah" I got 17min on high. As voltage drops to 6V, current is up to 2.2A, from there it takes about 10 seconds to creep up to about 2.7A and then the protection kicks in shutting off current. I know this is too much for Li-Co, I just wanted to see what was happening through the full range, I won't be doing this regularly, going to order up some IMR16340s for this guy.

Pics to come soon.. I promise.. I'll still having fun testing and toying with this mini-beast at the moment. Holy $%#& is it bright!


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## VanIsleDSM

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

Ok, took some pics, and ordered some IMR16340s. 

Before modification: The red in the first picture shows where the host had to be bored out slightly to accept the drop-in. The second picture is of the head with the lens and o-ring removed. The black is where the o-ring sits, and the red marks where about 0.75mm had to be removed from the inside of the lip that holds the o-ring.

The other pics are after modification and the drop-in itself. The grey goo is arctic silver 5 that I had already smeared on the threads as well as between the heatsink and body.

I'll try to get some actual beam shots tonight.. I can't believe how bright this thing is.



Pics were sucking up all my bandwidth.


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## skyfire

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

beamshots!!!


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## shortstack

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

NICE!!!!


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## don.gwapo

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

Nice mod and as always, beamshots please.


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## Kestrel

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

Very nice. You know, if you wanted to build these & sell them, you could pretty much name your price - $150 each would be a good starting point. These types of units are in extremely high demand, especially if it contained a three-mode driver. From what I read, there will be only ~30 Moddoo / ElectronGuru XP-G triples (at about that price), and there is a huge waiting list that may not be fulfilled for the foreseable future.

I understand that the hosts would need to be modified, that probably wouldn't be that much of an issue for many folks - these 'drop-ins' would be far more valuable than many of the hosts that folks here have.

Again, that looks to be a fantastic unit. :thumbsup:

K


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## Kevin1322

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

Sweet!!!:twothumbs


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## VanIsleDSM

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

Thanks for the compliments! I'll try to get some beamshots tomorrow night, I was busy tonight installing some green LED footwell lighting in a friend's car.

As for making these units available for sale, I would like to do that. I wasn't sure demand was that high though, I ordered parts to build a few more, with the new R4 neutral white XPGs 

I suppose I should order parts to build some more? I was planning to offer just a 4 LED unit as well, which would most likely allow the use of regular Li-Ion batteries instead of the IMRs, and price would be less, as the 5th LED is quite a bit more customization to add.

Just encase anybody is worried like I was.. I didn't mount the 5th LED to just aluminum with epoxy, since it's sitting up on a pedestal and the heat has longer to travel to to get out along a skinnier path as opposed to being mounted on a flat plain, I decided to solder it directly to solid piece of copper that links up to the heatsink. I don't have any numbers to say so, but I imagine that helps equal out the thermal resistance, as the other 4 LEDs on the MCPCB have to get through the dielectric layer.

As for the modification, I haven't seen a lot of hosts to see how possible it is on all of them. but I don't think it should be too tough, it's not very much material to be removed. Around the o-ring on the head, it could easily be done with a dremel by hand, and may not even need to be done on some hosts, it's just so the optic can fit through there. On the body, it's just a quick, shallow bore. You could most likely convince a guy at your local machine shop to stay 5min after work and do it for a case of beer. I could also offer it as a cheap service if the host was shipped to me, I just don't know for sure how capable they all are of being modified.

Any other feedback about building some of these for the CPF community would be great. I'm not entirely sure how to collect orders. Make a list and then get the parts and build? I wouldn't want to just buy a bunch of parts and get stuck with them.. but I suppose if the interest is really there it wouldn't be an issue.


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## PolarBearX

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

very nice looking...what's the runtime and how hot does it get...would it come with an oven mitt :thumbsup: ....oh yea and beamshots

PBX


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## Kestrel

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*



VanIsleDSM said:


> As for making these units available for sale, I would like to do that. I wasn't sure demand was that high though, I ordered parts to build a few more, with the new R4 neutral white XPGs.


Probably the sale thread most comparable is:
Moddoo Direct Drive Triple XP-G R5 P60 Drop-in: in limited production 
with the extensive reservation list compiled from this (very long) thread:
Moddoo Drop-ins: Triple CREE XP-E 

There is a lot of reading in the above threads if you haven't read them yet, but what you might find to be the most interest is in the particular requests and comments by posters providing input as to what they wanted to see as the XP-G product was progressing in the XP-E thread above.

There definitely should be some interest in a sellable product, my only suggestion would be the driver - IMO the primary market for this type of unit would be a high-quality 3-mode driver (you may want to PM Justin Case on this, he really knows his stuff on drivers & is very helpful), also possibly a single-mode driver as well. Anyway, just my opinions, I'm no expert, just a potential customer. 



VanIsleDSM said:


> I suppose I should order parts to build some more? I was planning to offer just a 4 LED unit as well, which would most likely allow the use of regular Li-Ion batteries instead of the IMRs, and price would be less, as the 5th LED is quite a bit more customization to add.


IMO a 4-LED unit would be much better - LiCo compatiblity is a huge plus instead of IMR-only. Also, with regards to customization time, although by now probably over 100 people have posted interest-to-buy for the Moddoo XP-G triples (which are $144), the last info from Moddoo / ElectronGuru on these is that there will only 30 of them due to them being too time consuming to make. So it sounds like your additional time required for the 5th LED would be pretty counter-productive in the big picture. 4 LED's would be just fine, especially if you can maximize the heat sinking - Moddoo used copper in his triple XP-G modules, and from what I can see of his pics, they are exceedingly well-designed - it sounds like those emitters can be driven very hard due to that design.

BTW for any aluminum components that you do use, to optimize thermal transfer it would be best to make it out of C.P. (commercially pure - ideal) or 1000-series aluminum (not quite as good, but it would be stronger for doing threads, etc). The harder alloys (2xxx, 6xxx, 7xxx, etc) really take a significant hit when it comes to thermal conductivity.



VanIsleDSM said:


> As for the modification, I haven't seen a lot of hosts to see how possible it is on all of them. but I don't think it should be too tough, it's not very much material to be removed. Around the o-ring on the head, it could easily be done with a dremel by hand, and may not even need to be done on some hosts, it's just so the optic can fit through there. On the body, it's just a quick, shallow bore.


I think one key issue here is whether a modified host will be able to go back to containing a regular 'spring' drop-in and/or a Malkoff M60-series drop-in and still function adequately. If your larger 'well' in the head becomes to wide and/or deep, I would suggest offering an additional 'slug' turned from a piece of aluminum tubing that would re-occupy the volume that you are removing from the host. That would probably provide backward compatibility for when a user would want to put a 'normal' drop-in back into the modified host. This would be a very simple part to make and I think folks would like to have them if they had their hosts modified - I know I would want one of those for sure.



VanIsleDSM said:


> Any other feedback about building some of these for the CPF community would be great. I'm not entirely sure how to collect orders. Make a list and then get the parts and build? I wouldn't want to just buy a bunch of parts and get stuck with them.. but I suppose if the interest is really there it wouldn't be an issue.


Sorry but I don't have any helpful advice here - I've never done anything like this. As I said, I'm just a potential customer. :huh:


Oh, and BTW, I think your pics in post #1 are a little too wide - IIRC the maximum width is 800 pixels.


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## VanIsleDSM

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

I haven't read through the Moddoo thread yet, but I did take a look at it yesterday after you mentioned the unit. Very nicely made, every extreme has been taken with that thing. I have built a few projects as well soldering directly to copper. Works quite well and saves about 1-2 C/W. With the XPG that'll mean about an extra 2-3% light output. The only thing I'm not crazy about with that unit is the parallel driving of the LEDs at high current. There could be some pretty serious current mismatch due to Vf variation, these aren't matched up like a multi die emitter, I've tested about 10 and they are all over the map for voltage.

As for the drivers, I know the strobe and the SOS are annoying, but unfortunately these drivers come like that. I'll go probing around on the next board I get. I don't have a PIC programmer, but I have programmed many chips on a serial connection. I could perhaps just remove the PIC and replace it with my own. All of the markings on the chips have been scraped off the top, which makes diagnosis a little tougher, no datasheets to read, but I may be able to figure it out, maybe with some of this Justin_Case fellow's help if he's willing.

Originally when I was going to make this unit, I was planning to build my own driver, using 5 buck/boost drivers all together based on the TPS63000, would have been a bad *** ~93 efficient buck/boost driver that would have driver 5 LEDs to 1000mA from a single 18650 instead of 2 16340s. But.. it would have been about $50 each in electronics to make each driver.. so when I saw this 5 LED boost driver from DX, I had to get it, cut down on my build time significantly. This driver is pretty good too, it's quite efficient. Eprom has done some tests on it in the LED driver thread.

Right now I'm working on a different driver for the 4 LED unit. Instead of a boost driver this one is a linear driver, to be used with a single 18650. The major difference with this linear driver is that each LED will have it's own output. No current mismatching. 1050mA each. Driver modes will be user configurable. Select from 5 mode, hi-low-strobe, hi-med-low, or hi-low. Single mode operation would be possible too, but that would have to be done before everything was put together and it would stay like that. The other mode groups can change from 5 to 3 to 2 mode yourself after you have the unit.

Meanwhile I will still try to figure out the boost driver to get down to 3 modes for those who would prefer to have the CC boost through the whole Li-Ion range from slightly less energy (2x16340) compared to a linear driver that will start to dim when it's bellow LED Vf, but packs energy overall from a single 18650 and has configurable modes.

I forgot about the archaic 800pixel thing, cropping my pics right now


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## Kestrel

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

I like it. :thumbsup:


BTW a two-mode module (just hi & low) using *1x*18650 would be just awesome - I love single LiIon setups. :twothumbs

I currently have a 18-mm bored SF 6P which is empty when my only Malkoff is in my C3 - I've been waiting for the latest & greatest XP-G P60 drop-in for a while now. It's ironic that my 18mm 6P can contain more watt-hours than my 18mm C3.


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## VanIsleDSM

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

I've been taking some more measurements and sketched a couple things up with CAD, and I think I may actually be able to make the 4 XPG unit straight drop-in with some modification of the the optic. Using a single 18650 driver that is mode configurable as previously mentioned. I need the other hosts I've ordered to get here though.

My only concern with the straight drop-in is the heat transfer. The drop-in that came with the host I bought and converted to the 5 XPG didn't fit snug into the body at all. The drop-in is 22mm, while the host had a 22.6mm bore. That's way too much space to move around. How much does the bore on P60 hosts vary? I'd like to make the drop-in fit as snug as possible, but without being so big it won't fit into some.


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## dirtech

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

Ok this is awesome and I bet there is a market here for these. I think moddo was contemplating a quad inside a M2 head but you got 5 in there! I would be interested in one, but would have to sell off some stuff first or wait until next years flashlight budget.


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## Kestrel

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*



VanIsleDSM said:


> The drop-in is 22mm, while the host had a 22.6mm bore. That's way too much space to move around. How much does the bore on P60 hosts vary? I'd like to make the drop-in fit as snug as possible, but without being so big it won't fit into some.


*Anto* recently did a polling-type thread *here* to find out the variance with the particular ID that you are most interested in for SureFire 6P hosts - after reading your post I thought that this info would be right up your alley. Sounds like 22.17 - 22.18 mm from a quick skim of a few posts in there.

(It looks like you are using an UltraFire 6P-type host, I have one SolarForce host which may be comparable & a touch wider than my SureFire P-type hosts. I left my calipers at work or else I could supply sample measurements from my modest collection at least.)



dirtech said:


> I would be interested in one, but would have to sell off some stuff first or wait until next years flashlight budget.


Heck, I haven't bought any lights for myself since the middle of last year, waiting for the new XP-G P60 drop-ins.
I have PayPal ready and can even mortgage the cat to get my hands on a triple or a quad.


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## BigHonu

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

Nice job VanIsleDSM!

I think Kestrel covered the main points to target to make this drop in a hit if you were to consider going into production. 

The only other thing that I can come up with that would make this drop-in even better is to find some good throwy optics designed for the XP-G. Seems like that is an itch that hasn't quite been scratched yet.

My selfish wish list:
2x123 primaries and 1x18650 compatible. If the driver performs like Gene's in his M60/M60L where you get full power from the primaries and an 18650 would give slightly less output but wicked long runtime (with diminishing output), then I would be a happy camper. I guess that would be your 'linear' driver that you describe.

I like a single mode (as long as the driver behaves as described above), but understand that multi-mode is more attactive to others. If you are going to do something with a memory function, have the memory set based upon how long the light has been OFF. A second is plenty of time. That way you can quickly blip through the levels to find the one you want, and having the light off for a second will set it there. Much better than having to hold the level in the 'on' position for X seconds to set the memory.

Narrow optics (8 degrees or less) would be good because I'm thinking that with 4 emitters, there will be a ton of flood/spill no matter how narrow you go. Might as well put some light as far downrange as possible at the same time!

Just my $.02

BTW, I'd definitely buy one, especially if you can get a nice long reaching beam out of it! 

Awaiting the beamshots!

Forgot to add that host modification would make this slightly less attactive. I like to play Lego with my lights, and having a specialized host makes the Lego part a little harder.


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## ptolemy

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

I have a FM d26, 26650 host, i'd like 4 or 5 die...it will run off 4000mah, imr which can take 10amps, so i think it might be perfect match for both 

whenever you are ready, I would love high/low or high/med/low 

pm me for quickest reply


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## VanIsleDSM

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

Been busy working on getting these 4 and 5 XPG units to drop right into a P60 with no modification. Looks like I've got it figured. With the new linear single 18650 driver the max current is 1050mA per LED with the modes configurable as described above. Medium is 350mA, and low is 30mA. So the 5 LED unit will be even brighter, according to jtr1962's awesome white LED lumen tests, this would mean about 1815 Lumen.

I took a couple quick beamshots. First pic is a CREE XRE R2 @1050mA, second, the 5 XPG R5 @800mA per LED. Both pics were taken on manual with the same shutter, aperture, and iso. I'll get some white wall shots as soon as I can.. Waiting for a few parts and I should have the new prototype straight drop-in 4 and 5 units built and ready to make multiples of.



Pics sucking up all my bandwidth




I still need a bit of help though, to determine the best diameter for the drop-in. According to the Anto polling thread, the diamter of the bore is 22.17-22.18. Quite a bit smaller than the host I have, which was 22.6mm. I suppose that would explain why the drop-in is only 22mm, which would probably fit pretty well in the 22.17mm bore.

So what type of lights are most people putting drop-ins into? genuine surefire lights that all have a 22.17mm bore? Do the stock 22mm drop-ins fit snugly in the 22.17mm bore? 

Thanks guys, should have these done before the end of the week if all goes well.


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## icaruz

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

Wow, that's a lot of light. Hopefully you can start a sales thread soon. BTW why P60/D26 format? we have a few member dealing with this size but not multiple XP-G on bigger P90/D36 form factor? But still i will be interested to have this in my hands and compare it with my Moddoo triple XP-G.


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## BigHonu

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

Impressive! 

Regarding hosts, I believe that if it can fit in a Surefire it will fit into most other hosts. 

I see that Solarforce is another popular host. 

Let us know when you have the prototypes ready.


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## VanIsleDSM

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

Ok, there is one other measurement I need from a genuine 6P, anybody who has one also have a set of calipers? If I don't grab any attention here I'm sure I could probably make a thread in the machining section to get an answer, but before I do that, I'll try responding to Anto's thread to get that information.

It's the inner diameter of the o-ring perch for the lens that I need, the area on the head marked out for machining in the first post. If anybody can help out that would be greatly appreciated!


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## arek98

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

Wow, that looks really great :twothumbs:.

4-5 XP-G R4 neutral in my FM 26650 host, 2-3 modes running from single IMR battery :rock:

VanIsleDSM
You may definitely put me on the waiting list for such drop-in.


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## Isthereanybodyoutthere

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

From where did you get that 1" diameter 4 LED optic  how much $$


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## Kestrel

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*



VanIsleDSM said:


> Ok, there is one other measurement I need from a genuine 6P, anybody who has one also have a set of calipers? If I don't grab any attention here I'm sure I could probably make a thread in the machining section to get an answer, but before I do that, I'll try responding to Anto's thread to get that information.
> 
> It's the inner diameter of the o-ring perch for the lens that I need, the area on the head marked out for machining in the first post. If anybody can help out that would be greatly appreciated!


I can take this measurement on my SureFire 6P, SureFire G3, my (considerably older) SureFire C3, and my Fivemega P60-type host & post it here tomorrow (but I'm still not exactly clear as to the exact measurement location you desire). I can also take the ID of the drop-in aspect of these bodies as well (like the 'Anto' measurement)


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## VanIsleDSM

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

The measurement I need from the head is basically the smallest ID in the head. The ID of the platform that o-ring grove is machined into, for sealing the lens. The same platform that reflector drop-ins rest on. The lens o-ring is on one side, the reflector rests on the the other side of this ledge. Does that explain it properly?


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## Bimmerboy

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

I've seen some of your work before, so I'm definitely going to keep an eye on this! I especially like that the emitters are in series.

Would you be able to offer this in single mode as well?


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## bshanahan14rulz

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

Way to go, VanIsle!

What host did you use? I have a solarforce L2, I'd love to have it be truely drop-in. Right now I use the generic MC-E drop-in, s'ok. Don't have calipers, otherwise I'd measure it for ya. I'm curious to see how the solarforce host I.D. matches up with the surefire one...

I'd love to see compatibility with regular ol' LiCo cells, although if I have to, I'll buy manganese.


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## Kestrel

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*



VanIsleDSM said:


> The measurement I need from the head is basically the smallest ID in the head. [...] The same platform that reflector drop-ins rest on.


 
OK, the smaller of the two head IDs, just above the ledge that the lowest part of the drop-in (or drop-in spring) rests against:
SF 6P 0.763" = 19.38 mm
SF C3 (old) 0.765" = 19.43 mm
FiveMega 0.804" = 20.42 mm
SF G3 (nitrolon) 0.793" = 20.14 mm







FYI, the larger of the two IDs (the 'Anto' measurement)
(The two numbers are: diameter, diameter rotated 90 degrees, then averaged & converted to mm)
SF 6P 0.873" 0.874" = 22.19 mm
SF C3 (old) 0.875" 0.876" = 22.24 mm
FiveMega 0.873" 0.873" = 22.17 mm
SF G3 (nitrolon) 0.954" 0.954" = 24.23 mm


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## VanIsleDSM

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

Thanks Kestrel. Looks like 22mm is a good diameter to make the drop-in, or actually more like 22.05mm

The other measurement you took, is on the body of the flashlight, not the head, the spring on the bottom of the drop-in rests on in the body. The other part I was talking about is at the top of the head, where the lens sits.


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## Kestrel

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*



VanIsleDSM said:


> The measurement I need from the head is basically the smallest ID in the head. The ID of the platform that o-ring grove is machined into, for sealing the lens. The same platform that reflector drop-ins rest on.





VanIsleDSM said:


> [...] The other part I was talking about is at the top of the head, where the lens sits.


OK I think I finally got it. 
Here's one time that I'm perfectly willing to use the following icon on CPF: 
One catch, I do not have the tool to remove the bezel ring so as to get that measurement by going in on the front of the head. Therefore, I'll have to see if I can use the same tool shown in my first pic in my post above & coming in from behind the lens assembly. I only have my SF G3 with me today, so I'll take a closer look at that assembly later this morning to see if that's possible.

Sometime in April I'll be getting my hands on a bezel ring removal tool & will be replacing my plastic SF bezel rings with stainless steel rings & will have much easier access to that diameter that you are indicating, but that won't be soon enough for this purpose.

I'll see if I can get a usable measurement this afternoon - the aluminum head/bezel assembly on my G3 is identical to the one on the 6P except that the exterior has been powdercoated by SF.


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## Kestrel

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

OK, I tried to put together the end-all of the SureFire Z44 head / bezel assembly diagrams for you:






BTW from my own experience, I know that the SolarForce version of this (which I think are the second most common on CPF after the SureFire Z44) have a measurably greater *H1* dimension, something like 0.050" deeper if I was to guess. I can do measurements on my SolarForce head/bezel & post them tomorrow.

Oh, and check the OD of your drop-in main spring and check it against my 19.4mm diameter measurement in the first half of my post #28. I know that many of the non-SureFire drop-ins have larger diameter springs which often have to be removed completely for the drop-in to fit into a SureFire host.


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## J-FRAME

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

WOW I get so excited about a new over the top drop-in for a standard bored 6p.I myself prefer a single mode blaster with tons of throw and spill will take care of it self. Pure power.Like a hand welder!!!Send me the mortgage papers and sign me up . Pay Pal at the ready.


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## VanIsleDSM

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

Awesome, thanks Kestrel. And I'm glad you mentioned the spring diameter. The clone 6P I have just continues the 22.6mm bore it has right down to the ground spring perch. From your pictures it looks as though the genuine 6p host doesn't continue the 22.18mm diameter all the way down to the spring perch, looks like it starts to taper down to the 19.4mm diameter?

That would have been a problem, as I was planning to let the drop-in make contact with the body all along that area. But it's nothing that can't be made to fit! I just need to know how deep the 22.18mm diameter bore goes into the body before it gets smaller.

Sorry to keep bugging for dimensions! I promise I'll make the final product worth it


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## Kestrel

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

Sounds good, I'll take measurements on my newer 6P and my rather old C3 with regards to where the inside taper starts and where it ends. The spring diameter issue has always been a bit annoying - SureFire has their relatively small-diameter main spring, SolarForce et al. has their large spring, which when removed, results in a module that is of comparable dimensions to the 'unsprung' (i.e. monolithic) Malkoff M-series. I had to remove the main spring from my SolarForce drop-in to get it to fit in my SF's, while I had to add a thin washer to my SolarForce host to get the smaller SureFire P60 main spring to seat reliably on the much-wider SolarForce spring shelf.

There seems to be no real reason why the Chinese mfgrs deviated from the SureFire dimensions in this particular regard, unless it was due to intellectual-property / patent concerns with regard to the SureFire P60 drop-in design. Anyway, that topic most definitely belongs in another thread. :tinfoil:


I'll also get some measurements on the SolarForce head / bezel (particularly *D1 (edit: D2 is actually more important)* and *H1*), but my suspicion is that they will be pretty much identical to your pictured UltraFire head / bezel - they appear to be comparable units.


----------



## BigHonu

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

Kestrel,

UDAMAN! Thanks for the measurements!


----------



## Noctis

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

Sign me up for the waiting list. I've been looking all over for a super drop-in for my 6P.

You mentioned you wanted direct contact with the host body, but would it be possible to squeeze in some of that Arctic Silver 5 I've been hearing about and have that as an alternative? From what I've read about it(don't actually have it or know how to use it), putting some between the drop-in and the head of the body should be able to transfer heat between the two.


----------



## Kestrel

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

OK, here are some measurements of my relatively new SureFire 6P body as well as my (much older) SureFire C3 (which measured out identically):





BTW, the three-digit measurements above have a measurement error of +- 0.002", while two-digit measurements are within +- 0.005" - those were more difficult due to not having any flat edge to reference off of.


Also, I measured my SolarForce Head/Bezel assembly to compare it to the SF Z44 and got:
*H1* = 1.071" (1.050" on the SureFire Z44 - post #30)
H2 = 0.905" - 0.930" (the top surface is beveled instead of flat. At any rate, this particular measurement is unimportant.)
H3 = 1.382" (1.380" on the SF Z44)
H4 = 1.160" (1.125" on the SF Z44)
H5 = 0.156" (0.120" on the SF Z44)
D1 = 0.974" (0.950" on the SF Z44)
*D2* = 1.065" (1.060" on the SF Z44)
D3 = 1.133" (1.130" on the SF Z44)

So as I suspected, the Solarforce head/bezel is a bit 'deeper' at *H1* (and may be the same as your UltraFire head/bezel), which has some relevance regarding OAL of your module. *D2* is a touch more 'open', so that shouldn't be an issue at all (as the OD of the front of the optic should be limited by D2 in the SF Z44 if I understand your configuration correctly).


----------



## chelboed

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

Not to discount the efforts of the OP...but I think that if you removed the middle R5...you prob. wouldn't even notice a diff in the beam shot. A non-reflected R5 can't have much reach. Just a giant weak flood. I ran a P7 w/ no reflector for a while b/c I loved how "much" light there was...but past a few yds...it was pretty useless.


Having said that and not reading the thread in its entirety due to my lack of time ATM...if you could rig a 2 way switch to turn on the single XP-G by itself for close-up "electrician type" work...and the other throw of the switch would go to the 4x reflected ones...then you got the perfect all'rounder!!


----------



## LightJaguar

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

Oh wow impressive most impressive. Very nice I only wish that I had the skills and tools necessary to do something like this. 
A nice piece of work like this deserves a and equally nice host...a Surefire. It should be a mortal sin to put it in something like a Superfire. 
How many amps is this "sort of" drop in pulling? Put me on the waiting list! and


----------



## Noctis

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*



chelboed said:


> Not to discount the efforts of the OP...but I think that if you removed the middle R5...you prob. wouldn't even notice a diff in the beam shot. A non-reflected R5 can't have much reach. Just a giant weak flood. I ran a P7 w/ no reflector for a while b/c I loved how "much" light there was...but past a few yds...it was pretty useless.
> 
> 
> Having said that and not reading the thread in its entirety due to my lack of time ATM...if you could rig a 2 way switch to turn on the single XP-G by itself for close-up "electrician type" work...and the other throw of the switch would go to the 4x reflected ones...then you got the perfect all'rounder!!


Meh, wouldn't a "low" mode achieve the same purpose? Might as well forget the 5th LED altogether to save time and money.

I wonder what the price range would be like. Moddoo triple drop-ins cost nearly $150, but the quality of every single piece is extremely top notch.

I think most people would be happy enough with a Triple LED drop-in that can put out 700+ lumens in a P60 size, even if it's mass-produced quality. Wanted an MC-E but the throw is so little that it starts to become an issue even if I'm not interested in throw. An SST-50 seemed nice, but the lumens output still leaves me with an itch.

Triple LEDs and higher are quite commonplace in high-end bike lights. It's just hardly ever done in a small P60 size...which seems a little strange considering this would likely be the "next generation" lights.


----------



## VanIsleDSM

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

Thanks for all the measurements Kestrel, very much appreciated. Now I just need to convert the numbers from fractions of some old guy's body parts into scientific data, metric. 

As for the 5th, I like the spill it adds, some people might not care about that. I have also toyed around with modifying the optic further to include a small lens to focus the 5th LED.. but more on that later. While I was building this, I looked at the beam while turning the 5th LED on and off, you can definitely see the difference.

700 lumen in a P60 might sound good, but not once you've seen 1800 lumen...

I haven't fully figured out the price yet, but it'd be something like $145 for a 4X and $190 for a 5X, as the 5X is a lot more work. As mentioned though, I doubt a lot of people will be wanting the 5th LED, some probably will though, just so they can have the brightest P60 possible. I don't want this to sound at all like I'm bashing on the Moddoo tripple, just an explanation of the price point. I agree the Moddoo is made with very high quality parts, and it looks stunning. The short-coming of the Moddoo is that lacks a driver, leaving the drive current and light output very dependent on LED Vf, which can vary a lot as we all know. Parallel driving of LEDs at that high of a current isn't very good for performance either, some LEDs will be driven way over spec, getting very inefficient, others with higher Vfs won't be putting out as much light. 

4.2A draw for the 4X and 5.25A for the 5X. Thinking about maybe doing a 4X1400mA version too, for 5.6A, taking out the 5th LED and putting more power into the remaining 4 to get more throw? Would this be a more popular option? Heat would be slightly worse than the 5X.. which isn't too bad, but it will get up to around 50C on the battery tube, which is still easy to hold on to, but the operating limit of the cells, in around 5min sitting inside, not in my hand. Would be better outside, being carried. But that's what medium and low and for


----------



## one2tim

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

this is looking so good!


----------



## BigHonu

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

I would think that a more conservative approach to the drive level would be better as I can't imagine the output being that much better to justify the greater amperage. 

Would you also be able to do something where you drive the 4x at something like 800ma/LED? I know that would knock down the full output figure a bit, but if the driver can accommodate different drive levels, I just thought to ask. 

Price point sounds good!


----------



## PolarBearX

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

I'm interested in the 4 or 5 drop in for my newest gray solarforce l2p ... not as a throw king though. I think it's great to see these smaller lights light up larger patches of area, and man will this one ever!...the levels is a huge selling point for me too....nice work!

PBX




VanIsleDSM said:


> 700 lumen in a P60 might sound good, but not once you've seen 1800 lumen...
> 
> I haven't fully figured out the price yet, but it'd be something like $145 for a 4X and $190 for a 5X, as the 5X is a lot more work. As mentioned though, I doubt a lot of people will be wanting the 5th LED, some probably will though, just so they can have the brightest P60 possible. I don't want this to sound at all like I'm bashing on the Moddoo tripple, just an explanation of the price point. I agree the Moddoo is made with very high quality parts, and it looks stunning. The short-coming of the Moddoo is that lacks a driver, leaving the drive current and light output very dependent on LED Vf, which can vary a lot as we all know. Parallel driving of LEDs at that high of a current isn't very good for performance either, some LEDs will be driven way over spec, getting very inefficient, others with higher Vfs won't be putting out as much light.
> 
> 4.2A draw for the 4X and 5.25A for the 5X. Thinking about maybe doing a 4X1400mA version too, for 5.6A, taking out the 5th LED and putting more power into the remaining 4 to get more throw? Would this be a more popular option? Heat would be slightly worse than the 5X.. which isn't too bad, but it will get up to around 50C on the battery tube, which is still easy to hold on to, but the operating limit of the cells, in around 5min sitting inside, not in my hand. Would be better outside, being carried. But that's what medium and low and for


----------



## Noctis

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

So...can we expect one to go on sale this month? :devil:


----------



## Chrontius

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

I really really hope I get a good tax refund this year. 

I'd be in for a production-quality triple, and maybe for a quad or pent.

I almost hope Surefire offers to hire you and start making these as the M5, with a two-stage tailcap.


----------



## ptolemy

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

that price sounds good.i think it will work just fine in fm 26650 body

will the mclickie handle 5a current?


----------



## Kestrel

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*



VanIsleDSM said:


> Thanks for all the measurements Kestrel, very much appreciated. Now I just need to convert the numbers from fractions of some old guy's body parts into scientific data, metric.


LOL ya ya ya. 
I had briefly considered converting them to mm prior to posting, but the inevitable rounding-off pretty much invalidates the tolerances, which I really wanted to provide. This way you have the most information. :thumbsup:


VanIsleDSM said:


> As for the 5th, I like the spill it adds, some people might not care about that. I have also toyed around with modifying the optic further to include a small lens to focus the 5th LED.. but more on that later. While I was building this, I looked at the beam while turning the 5th LED on and off, you can definitely see the difference.


You know, with no reflector or optic for the 5th LED in the center, you know what would be awesome for that one? A small aspheric lens - I'm no optical engineer, but I'll bet you have enough depth for it - not sure about the width tho. That would provide a nice boost in throw in the very center of the final hotspot. Now a unit like that would definitely be worth the extra effort IMO. 


VanIsleDSM said:


> I agree the Moddoo is made with very high quality parts, and it looks stunning. The short-coming of the Moddoo is that lacks a driver, leaving the drive current and light output very dependent on LED Vf, which can vary a lot as we all know. Parallel driving of LEDs at that high of a current isn't very good for performance either, some LEDs will be driven way over spec, getting very inefficient, others with higher Vfs won't be putting out as much light.


If I was to hazard a total guess on the Moddoo unit, I wonder if all the LEDs were matched for Vf as best as possible i.e. LEDs with the closest Vf matches were grouped in sets of three & installed in the same unit. I understand the potential issue that parallel driving provides, so that might be the only feasible solution for a driver-less module.

I actually think that there is a role for both products - given the opportunity, I would prefer to have both. My thoughts:

The ultimate in simplicity & potential reliablity of the direct-drive Moddoo triple - very few parts to fail.
A low level can be provided with the Moddoo unit via a McC2S two-stage switch in the SF Z41 tailcap (of which I am the very fortunate owner of three of the now-discontinued & rare sets ).
Greater flexibility of your unit - multiple output modes and perhaps the potential for greater input voltage & subsequently a greater variety of hosts (such as the popular three-cell SF's running 2x LiIons, while being able to use 3x CR123's for backup since those two combinations have basically the same voltage).



VanIsleDSM said:


> 4.2A draw for the 4X and 5.25A for the 5X. Thinking about maybe doing a 4X1400mA version too, for 5.6A, taking out the 5th LED and putting more power into the remaining 4 to get more throw? Would this be a more popular option? Heat would be slightly worse than the 5X.. which isn't too bad, but it will get up to around 50C on the battery tube, which is still easy to hold on to, but the operating limit of the cells, in around 5min sitting inside, not in my hand. Would be better outside, being carried. But that's what medium and low are for.



Just about anything sounds good, really. However, IMO the best starting lineup might be:

4xXPG, 2-mode driver appropriate for 1x LiIon, running the single LiCo 18650 to its max
4xXPG, 2-mode driver appropriate for *2x* LiIon for flat regulation and maximum possible output (now that the module wouldn't be limited by what a single LiCo cell could do)
I'm guessing that 5 flashaholics using 4x LED units would provide a higher aggregate level of fun than 4 flashaholics using 5x LED units. :huh:


----------



## kodama

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

Interested :wave:


----------



## VanIsleDSM

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

Mclickie has been shown to handle 5A fine, I haven't tested one myself, but that is according to other information I've seen here on CPF. When I have some more time I'll develop a switch utilizing a FET that will work very well with high current.

These should definitely go on sale this month, prototype should be ready to be sent to Kestrel for fitment testing by tomorrow or the next day. I was waiting on the head measurements, and then was busy with family Easter stuff... but I'll be finishing it up tomorrow.

The Moddoo is great for simplicity, and I want to clarify again I wasn't bashing on it, just trying to explain why my price was similar when not using 19 strand silver coated mil-spec wire.


----------



## Kestrel

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*



VanIsleDSM said:


> These should definitely go on sale this month, prototype should be ready to be sent to Kestrel for fitment testing by tomorrow or the next day. I was waiting on the head measurements, and then was busy with family Easter stuff... but I'll be finishing it up tomorrow.


Sounds fantastic, can't wait. 

BTW, I can check the following configurations:
(and post a couple of photographs & maybe even a few beamshots comparing it to the CPF-standard Malkoff M60 drop-in)

(The SureFire 6P will be with the standard AW Protected (LiCo) 2600 mAh 18650 - I don't currently have any IMR cells)

*Fitment plus 3.6-3.7 Vin operation*:

SureFire 6P (relatively new production) - SureFire Z44 head / bezel
SureFire 6P - SolarForce head / bezel (which is slightly deeper)
FiveMega 3xC (3xC NiMH :devil - SureFire Z44 head / bezel
FiveMega 3xC - SolarForce head / bezel
*Fitment* plus 2.4-2.5 Vin (i.e. 1x CR123 or 2x NiMH) operation: 
(at least this will check for electrical continuity and whether the driver will even operate in a low-voltage condition)

SureFire C3 (old production) - SureFire Z44 head / bezel
SureFire C3 - SolarForce head / bezel
SureFire G3 (nitrolon) - SureFire Z44 head / bezel
SureFire G3 (nitrolon) - SolarForce head / bezel
SolarForce L2m (1xCR123 body w/ wider diameter large spring seat) - SureFire Z44 head / bezel
SolarForce L2m - SolarForce head / bezel
Edit: BTW, I am assuming that the module is 3.7 Vin maximum, for a single LiIon. If the driver can take *two* LiIons, I can test the above SF C3 & G3 with 2x 18500 and 2x 17500 instead. However, I would only test these relatively high-voltage configurations if you specifically say that it can handle it - I am assuming that the existing driver cannot.

Which is fine - single (large) LiIon configurations are great.
For one of the two ?most-desirable? versions, hint hint: 



Kestrel said:


> 4xXPG, 2-mode driver appropriate for 1x LiIon, running the single LiCo 18650 to its max
> 4xXPG, 2-mode driver appropriate for *2x* LiIon for flat regulation and maximum possible output (now that the module wouldn't be limited by what a single LiCo cell could do)


----------



## VanIsleDSM

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

Ok, basically all finished but the wiring. I hope anyway.. it all depends on one more dimension! The solution to redesigning the drop-in to fit the taper present in the surefire host, and not present in my clone, has created the need to know the diameter right bellow D1 (0.765") on the body. The ID of the spring perch, the slightly smaller diameter right bellow D1.

Hopefully this diameter is 17.3mm or greater, and then all is well, if it is smaller, then I need to make another modification. So, as soon as I know, I can finish it within an hour or 2.

I can't believe how tight everything is.. it's just barely barely working.. and just the way things are chucking up, I've never done a project where so many things have just been soooo close to being impossible. I've really enjoyed the challenge.


----------



## Kestrel

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*



VanIsleDSM said:


> Ok, basically all finished but the wiring. I hope anyway.. it all depends on one more dimension! The solution to redesigning the drop-in to fit the taper present in the surefire host, and not present in my clone, has created the need to know the diameter right bellow D1 (0.765") on the body. The ID of the spring perch, the slightly smaller diameter right bellow D1.
> 
> Hopefully this diameter is 17.3mm or greater, and then all is well, if it is smaller, then I need to make another modification.


Outch, that is tight. A few months ago I measured that dimension (for boring purposes) and IIRC it was ~17.4 mm, but I don't recall its exact measurement. My two SureFire hosts are at home and I can only get a good measurement on them at work (that rather deep diameter is difficult to access - I know for a fact that it was slightly different than the ID at the tail end of the body).

There is also a chance that this particular dimension will be slightly different between those two hosts. I'll post back here tomorrow on this.


----------



## VanIsleDSM

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

I sure hope it's large enough for a 17mm driver to drop down into, the clones would be so much easier to make this drop-in for! If it's smaller than 17mm, I'll have to etch my own custom boards to use on the lower part of the driver that are smaller than 17mm, this would unfortunately raise the price a bit.. hopefully I don't have to do that, I'd rather not deal with all the extra work.

Something else I'm wondering if you can tell me, but it doesn't have to be exact, just by eye is fine. When you have an 18650 in the 6P, how far bellow the spring perch is the positive button on top of the 18650? Just as it sits on top of the tail cap spring... with a trustfire grey in my clone it's about 5mm bellow the spring perch, is this about the same with the 6P? I imagine so.. just want to make sure it's not longer for some reason, and that my driver will make contact with the positive end of the battery.

I think I have decided on the 2 versions I'll be making available to CPF soon. 

One will be a [email protected] per LED with MCPCB mount on aluminum heatsink, for 1488 raw lumen.

The second version will be [email protected] with LEDs directly soldered to an all copper drop-in heatsink with 1765 raw lumen. For those who want every little bit of light they can get...

The 5X is too much work.. I wouldn't have time to do it. If someone really has their heart set on having a 5X, then I may custom make one for you if you ask nicely 

I've also ordered some teflon coated mil-spec silver plated copper wire to use for both versions.


----------



## BigHonu

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

Can't wait to hear the results of the testing! Hope any fitment issues are minimal!


----------



## smokelaw1

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*



VanIsleDSM said:


> I
> The second version will be [email protected] with LEDs directly soldered to an all copper drop-in heatsink with 1765 raw lumen. For those who want every little bit of light they can get...


 
That's me!!!!
Can that run on a regular AW 18650, or is that asking too much from the cell? If so, what about the lower powered one? 

I need to get a bored out 6P pronto! 

Looking forward to seeing these!!!


----------



## VanIsleDSM

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

I think the 1400mA version will be in the grey area of a good LiCo cell, some may consider it too much draw, others will probably feel fine using one.. The 1050mA version will easily run on a standard LiCo

If anybody knows a good source for 6Ps I could get a few and bore them for the convenience of those who don't already have one. Since this is being designed for the 6P, it'll make the best thermal contact with that host.


----------



## Kestrel

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*



VanIsleDSM said:


> Hopefully this diameter is 17.3mm or greater, and then all is well, if it is smaller, then I need to make another modification.





VanIsleDSM said:


> I sure hope it's large enough for a 17mm driver to drop down into, the clones would be so much easier to make this drop-in for! If it's smaller than 17mm, I'll have to etch my own custom boards to use on the lower part of the driver that are smaller than 17mm, this would unfortunately raise the price a bit.. hopefully I don't have to do that, I'd rather not deal with all the extra work.


A rather difficult measurement to make accurately but:
SureFire 6P (relatively new production)
0.689" = 17.5 mm
SureFire C3 (old production, 3-flats body)
0.692" = 17.6 mm



VanIsleDSM said:


> Something else I'm wondering if you can tell me, but it doesn't have to be exact, just by eye is fine. When you have an 18650 in the 6P, how far bellow the spring perch is the positive button on top of the 18650? Just as it sits on top of the tail cap spring... with a trustfire grey in my clone it's about 5mm bellow the spring perch, is this about the same with the 6P? I imagine so.. just want to make sure it's not longer for some reason, and that my driver will make contact with the positive end of the battery.


OK, with the tailcap completely tightened down, the positive button (not really a protruding button BTW) of my AW protected 2600 mAh 18650 is *0.950*" below the top edge / rim of the 6P body. However, this is only because the 0.024"-thick shelf (lets call it *D0* in the diagram in my post # 37 above) is holding the wider-diameter 18650 down, otherwise the tailcap spring pressure would push it slightly farther up into the drop-in cavity (i.e. what would happen with a smaller-diameter 17670, for example. The cell can pushed down away from the drop-in cavity (compressing the tailcap spring) to a total depth of ~*1.10*" (~1.025" with a McC2S-modded Z41) at which point my SF Z41 tailcap spring is completely compressed) - if I understand correctly, this is the dimension that you will find the most relevant for this.


I do think that there is a little leeway in this regard, as the AW 18650 is slightly shorter than 2x CR123's that the 6P is designed for:

CR123: 1.344 x 2 = 2.688" total length
18650: 2.650" total length
So the SureFire 6P is designed for a nominal 'load length' of 2.688", while the AW 18650 is 0.038" (or *~1mm*) shorter.

Hope this helps?

K


----------



## Chevy-SS

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

PayPal ready. I would prefer a completely finished light, lacking only a battery, if possible. 

-


----------



## PolarBearX

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*



VanIsleDSM said:


> I've been taking some more measurements and sketched a couple things up with CAD, and I think I may actually be able to make the 4 XPG unit straight drop-in with some modification of the the optic.


 
do you no longer feel this is doable; is it guaranteed we'll need a bored host?

PBX


----------



## VanIsleDSM

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

Awesome, thanks Kestrel, that's all the info I need.

I should change the thread title now, it has evolved.. The only thing that will need to be bored is the battery tube for an 18650 as is common place.. the 4X will be a direct drop-in.


Thought I could change the title.. guess I cannot.


----------



## the_guy_with_no_name

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*



VanIsleDSM said:


> Awesome, thanks Kestrel, that's all the info I need.
> 
> I should change the thread title now, it has evolved.. The only thing that will need to be bored is the battery tube for an 18650 as is common place.. the 4X will be a direct drop-in.
> 
> 
> Thought I could change the title.. guess I cannot.



Very nice dropin/mod

You can change the title by clicking on "edit" then click the button that says "go advanced"

tgwnn


----------



## PolarBearX

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*



VanIsleDSM said:


> I should change the thread title now, it has evolved.. The only thing that will need to be bored is the battery tube for an 18650 as is common place.. the 4X will be a direct drop-in..


 
ok, so how bad (loose) might it be is I use my solarforce l2p, the battery tube is already 18650 I was hoping to use it..like it more than surefire honestly. I could always wrap the module so it makes better contact, or wouldn't you recommend that with this much heat? 

OR  will you be doing another run after this with maybe more testing of hosts, so that you don't have to customize it so much like you did just for the 6p? should be cheaper and easier for you too i'd imagine. I'm really impressed by how quickly you pulled this one together.

PBX


----------



## netprince

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

Interesting thread, I may be interested in a completed host when you get to that point. Would it be possible to mix two xpg neutral and 2 xpg cool?


----------



## VanIsleDSM

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

I'm not sure what the ID of the solarforce body is where the drop-in goes, Kestrel measured this on his hosts:

SF 6P 0.873" 0.874" = 22.19 mm
SF C3 (old) 0.875" 0.876" = 22.24 mm
FiveMega 0.873" 0.873" = 22.17 mm

My drop-in will fit well in anything around 22.15 - 22.3. Anything much larger than 22.3 and the heat transfer will start to suffer, for example, the clone I have with a 22.6mm bore wouldn't work very well.

Another bit of a delay unfortunately, I thought I had another 4 XPGs, turns out I only have 3, so I can't put together another one right at the moment. Wouldh ave been no big deal, cause I made an order from cutter a couple weeks ago, so I figured it should be here any day, but I just checked my email and turned out that order has been sitting on back order this whole time because of some stupid 90 cent MCPCB that they didn't have in stock. I wish I would have noticed that earlier.. so... to try and shorten any more possible delays, I made another order from them last night and dropped the $50 on the EMS shipping so I will hopefully have more LEDs very soon.. as long as cutter actually ships the parts promptly.

Frustrating! I'm tempted to just send a non-working drop-in to Kestrel to check fitment, but that wouldn't be very fun for any body..


----------



## Kestrel

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*



VanIsleDSM said:


> I'm tempted to just send a non-working drop-in to Kestrel to check fitment, but that wouldn't be very fun for any body..


A test slug wouldn't be an issue on my end at all, I'd be happy to report the results from my modest collection of hosts. Your call.


----------



## LightJaguar

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

Heck I'll but that non working drop in from you just to have a prototype in my hands :laughing:


----------



## Chevy-SS

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

I'm excited to buy one of these. Please keep us posted. 


-


----------



## VanIsleDSM

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

Ok, I didn't want to wait for the LEDs to arrive to be able to send the test drop-in to Kestrel, so I dismantled the 5X I made originally and rebuilt it into a 4X with the new driver and heatsink. 

I couldn't build this one properly because of the way I had to take apart the original piece, it's a little off center, the optic is a test piece that's all scratched up, and I only bothered to solder up one of the LEDs, but it should serve it's purpose of testing the sizing of the drop-in! 

I put it in the mail this morning, should be there by Friday if we're lucky, if not Monday should be the day.

I had to add a contact ring to the bottom of the driver where it contacts the positive side of the battery, so it will work with the flat top AW2600 cells, regular button cells will contact directly on the gold plated surface, looking for some gold plated wire right now so I can hopefully have the contact ring for use with flat top batteries gold plated as well.

I'm also working on a clicky tail switch that uses special low gate voltage FETs to switch the current. This tail switch will seriously out perform any type of mechanical switch, and will be good to well over 25A of current. With only microamps flowing through the actual switch itself, the switch should last a very long time.

More parts are on the way for when production starts, as soon as Kestrel (hopefully) confirms that the drop-in fits, I'll start a thread in the BST and get a list going.

If I have screwed something up and the drop-in doesn't fit, then I suppose I'll buy myself a 6P and make sure the second version fits!


----------



## Kestrel

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*



VanIsleDSM said:


> [If] the drop-in doesn't fit, then I suppose I'll buy myself a 6P and make sure the second version fits!


I could be persuaded to just trade you my 18mm-bored SF 6P for a completed 4x XPG if that would make things easier?


----------



## VanIsleDSM

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

Haha.. I decided to buy a 6P defender. It's on the way. I wanted the defender so I got the clicky switch. I want to make sure the switch I'm making will fit. I also have some more ideas for drop-ins in I'll be working on.

I suppose it didn't make it there yet? hopefully tomorrow.

The 1400mA copper version will be pretty high end for those that are into having the best. Gold plated electrical contacts, the copper heatsink itself plated in pure silver so it doesn't corrode (silver conducts heat even better than copper and won't oxidize to form any insulating layer) 

Also have plans for a 6P host of my own, with some pretty unique features. I'm working as fast as I can


----------



## old4570

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

I own a few Solarforce L2's :

0.887inch
0.891inch
0.886inch
0.885inch
0.887inch
0.889inch
0.888inch
0.889inch
0.889inch

Solarforce L2P 0.881inch

Measurements taken with Mitutoyo Dial Calipers :


----------



## VanIsleDSM

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*

Hmm.. that is too big. Looks like the ~22.6mm clone I have. I imagine they all come from the same factory in China, and solarforce just rebrands theirs and sells for more than the others. I could be wrong, it's just a guess.

I'm not sure how well that copper tape conducts, I've never tried using it, but you'd definitely want to do something to take up the extra space in the larger diameter clone hosts.


----------



## Noctis

Not to drag this off-topic, but have you considered soldering an SST-50/90 to a copper heatsink and just squeeze out every bit of power through that sucker? Probably not as efficient and would drain the battery inside of 5 minutes, but I'm pretty sure it would throw farther.

I only ask because Tri/Quad XP-Gs can't throw worth squat, but it sounds like an SST series in a slightly larger head(DBS) would certainly push the envelope for "most powerful pocket rocket" without flooding so much that it would simply be easier to fashion a flashlight to hold your typical ceiling lightbulb and just use it like that:shrug:

Also, what's the main advantage of using a Quad instead of a Triple? Milky tells me that I really ought to stick with a Triple unless there was some obvious advantage in going with more. 1,765 lumens sounds really impressive, but I would suggest that one be sent to bigchelis to test the OTF lumens:devil:


----------



## VanIsleDSM

He already contacted me, and I plan to send him one to test OTF lumens. If I get 1200-1000 I'd be pretty pleased.

I'm not sure who Milky is or what is credentials are, but I don't imagine why anyone would tell you less LEDs are better. Even if less current is used, efficiency goes up, more light and less heat is always the result.

I haven't seen an all copper silver plated P60 heatsink before, or a quad/quin for a P60. So lets not nay-say, or believe any nay-say, until everything is finished and we can see how these preform. 

If your triple is a direct driven parallel configured unit, if the LEDs have not been well matched for Vf, then all the LEDs will be receiving a different current, who knows.. one may be receiving 2.5A, another 1.5A, and the third 1A, for example. This really hurts efficiency and makes a lot of heat, OTF lumens will seriously suffer. I don't think the LEDs will have been Vf matched, because that would be very hard to do before SMTing them in place, unless you had some serious rig to secure them without solder to a heatsink and test Vf.

I'm know I'm new to the custom stuff for CPF scene, but I hope that doesn't warrant other modders, as I think Milky is? to advise against something I'm building before I've even completed it. That's not the right spirit! I will build my drop-ins and let them speak for themselves 

As for an SST, I might do a 50 later on for more throw, but the goal of this project, as quoted from the very first post "I wanted to try and cram as much light as I could into the P60 format, with heat buildup being the limiting factor I knew multiple CREE XPGs would be the best choice to keep efficiency up."


----------



## Noctis

VanIsleDSM said:


> He already contacted me, and I plan to send him one to test OTF lumens. If I get 1200-1000 I'd be pretty pleased.
> 
> I'm not sure who Milky is or what is credentials are, but I don't imagine why anyone would tell you less LEDs are better. Even if less current is used, efficiency goes up, more light and less heat is always the result.
> 
> I haven't an all copper silver plated P60 heatsink before, or a quad/quin for a P60. So lets not nay-say, or believe any nay-say, until everything is finished and we can see how these preform.
> 
> If your triple is a direct driven parallel configured unit, if the LEDs have not been well matched for Vf, then all the LEDs will be receiving a different current, who knows.. one may be receiving 2.5A, another 1.5A, and the third 1A, for example. This really hurts efficiency and makes a lot of heat, OTF lumens will seriously suffer. I don't think the LEDs will have been Vf matched, because that would be very hard to do before SMTing them in place, unless you had some serious rig to secure them without solder to a heatsink and test Vf.
> 
> I'm know I'm new to the custom stuff for CPF scene, but I hope that doesn't warrant other modders, as I think Milky is? to advise against something I'm building before I've even completed it. That's not the right spirit! I will build my drop-ins and let them speak for themselves
> 
> As for an SST, I might do a 50 later on for more throw, but the goal of this project, as quoted from the very first post "I wanted to try and cram as much light as I could into the P60 format, with heat buildup being the limiting factor I knew multiple CREE XPGs would be the best choice to keep efficiency up."


I'd personally be very happy with 1,000 OTF lumens as well(that number just rubs me in the right way).

This would be a short summary of what milky does:
https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/238792

I was pointed towards him when I asked around for an "alternative" to the Moddoo Triple XP-G due to an utter lack of availability. When I brought up the question of going for a quad XP-G setup, he did mention that I shouldn't go for that "unless it would offer a clear advantage" in my case. He did hint that it would rely on my battery choice(either 1x18650 or 2x18500s). Since the estimated runtime on high was about 30 minutes, I'd say he wanted to give me more runtime at the expense of output. I also suspect that he would only drive each LED at 1.5A and no more.

Sorry if I caused some confusion, but milky didn't exactly nay-say your mod(I kind of doubt he even knows about it). He merely suggested to me that I didn't "need" 4 XP-Gs rather than 3.

I can also kind of understand where he's coming from. He's taking the Surefire approach(sort of). He favors reliability and longevity over high specs. I suspect his custom Triple would probably take more time before the lumens output drops off due to heat(Quad would heat up faster than a Triple if all LEDs are driven at 1.5A), and it would last longer due to not being driven as hard.

If I had a big concern at all, it would simply be:
1) How *long* will this drop-in hold the eye-popping high output before the heat drops the output?
2) How long will this run on high?
3) What's the longevity on this?(can I expect it to last 5 years?)


----------



## VanIsleDSM

I see.. my bad then. I misunderstood!

4 LEDs at 1.5A will make more heat than 3 obviously. But I'm also building an aluminum version driven at 1050mA if you want more run time and less output.

3 XPGs at 1.5A each drawing 4.5A will output 1380 lumen and make more heat to drop output than 4 XPGs at 1A each for only 4A total draw, and make 1404 lumen.

More LEDs always wins, you just end up with more surface area to focus, which means less throw. But the quad optic I am using throws no less than either of the 10mm triple optics available, so it's a moot point for this situation.

Still the biggest advantage to this setup compared to any other multiple LED P60 configurations I have seen so far, is the individual current control for each LED, this ensures longevity, efficiency, and output far beyond any parallel setup.


----------



## Noctis

VanIsleDSM said:


> I see.. my bad then. I misunderstood!
> 
> 4 LEDs at 1.5A will make more heat than 3 obviously. But I'm also building an aluminum version driven at 1050mA if you want more run time and less output.
> 
> 3 XPGs at 1.5A each drawing 4.5A will output 1380 lumen and make more heat to drop output than 4 XPGs at 1A each for only 4A total draw, and make 1404 lumen.
> 
> More LEDs always wins, you just end up with more surface area to focus, which means less throw. But the quad optic I am using throws no less than either of the 10mm triple optics available, so it's a moot point for this situation.
> 
> Still the biggest advantage to this setup compared to any other multiple LED P60 configurations I have seen so far, is the individual current control for each LED, this ensures longevity, efficiency, and output far beyond any parallel setup.


Well, I'd probably grab one of yours anyway just to compare the beam.

Oh, and more beamshots please Even better if you light some matches with it.


----------



## mvyrmnd

Let me just add my name to the growing list of interested parties.

Personally, a 1400mA Quad to run on 1 or even 2 IMR18650's would be perfect. 

Oh, and single mode. With a light like this, it's an insult not to run it on full


----------



## flashfiend

Interested. Will be following for updates.


----------



## kodama

*Re: 5X XPG P60 "sort of" drop-in. ~1475 Lumen @115lm/W!*



VanIsleDSM said:


> Haha.. I decided to buy a 6P defender. It's on the way. I wanted the defender so I got the clicky switch. I want to make sure the switch I'm making will fit. I also have some more ideas for drop-ins in I'll be working on.
> 
> I suppose it didn't make it there yet? hopefully tomorrow.
> 
> The 1400mA copper version will be pretty high end for those that are into having the best. Gold plated electrical contacts, the copper heatsink itself plated in pure silver so it doesn't corrode (silver conducts heat even better than copper and won't oxidize to form any insulating layer)
> 
> Also have plans for a 6P host of my own, with some pretty unique features. I'm working as fast as I can



I remember silver was at the top of the charts when it came to electrical conductivity but didn't know it was number one for thermal conductivity also. I was told silver wasn't popularly used is because it corrodes fast (tarnishes). Although gold is third on the list, it's more popular because of resistance to oxidation. Here's a couple of links I dug up on silver conductivity and characteristics. http://www.tibtech.com/conductivity.php
http://www.chemicool.com/elements/silver.html 
and a wiki page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_conductivity


----------



## VanIsleDSM

Silver conducts heat better than just about anything. Gold is more popular in electrical contacts because of it's resistance to oxidization. 

Silver does not oxidize quickly at all however. It will not form any oxide in clean air or water. The only way it will oxidize is if exposed to hydrogen sulfide... and if you're exposed to that you've got more worries than your silver oxidizing.

This PDF:

http://www.tycoelectronics.com/documentation/whitepapers/pdf/3jot_9.pdf

Shows that at certain coating thickness silver even out performs gold for contact resistance.

It is by far the best choice to coat and protect the copper with, unless there was a process to plate it in diamond.

I just read something else saying that silver will slowly oxidize over time from very minute amounts of sulfur compounds in the air. This takes many many years for any to even be visible. I suppose if you had your drop-in sitting out of your flashlight for 5 years or more, you might want to give it a whipe with a jewelry polishing cloth before putting it into a host again


----------



## kodama

Well thats good news! I guess in a sealed flashlight it wouldn't matter. Looking forward to the silver plated copper sink , wonder how much a solid silver drop in would cost 




VanIsleDSM said:


> Silver conducts heat better than just about anything. Gold is more popular in electrical contacts because of it's resistance to oxidization.
> 
> Silver does not oxidize quickly at all however. It will not form any oxide in clean air or water. The only way it will oxidize is if exposed to hydrogen sulfide... and if you're exposed to that you've got more worries than your silver oxidizing.
> 
> This PDF:
> 
> http://www.tycoelectronics.com/documentation/whitepapers/pdf/3jot_9.pdf
> 
> Shows that at certain coating thickness silver even out performs gold for contact resistance.
> 
> It is by far the best choice to coat and protect the copper with, unless there was a process to plate it in diamond.
> 
> I just read something else saying that silver will slowly oxidize over time from very minute amounts of sulfur compounds in the air. This takes takes many many years for any to even be visible. I suppose if you had your drop-in sitting out of your flashlight for 5 years or more, you might want to give it a whipe with a jewelry polishing cloth before putting it into a host again


----------



## euroken

Definitely interested! Add me to the list please! (If there are any lists :naughty


----------



## Kestrel

I got home at 9:45 PM this evening, and guess what was waiting for me in my mailbox... :twothumbs


OK, I am staying up way too late in posting this info, so my apologies for being brief. I have a lot of information to convey and do not want to stay up any later than I have already so this post will not be up to my usual standards for clarity and editing. Again, my apologies. 

*Also, please keep in mind that this module is a 'in-the-rough' prototype, put together to check only for fitment and function.* I have a few close-up photos posted, but these were done only for visual aids, supporting the text.

I can post more photos, info, and dimensional measurements as I get them, hopefully starting tomorrow.




*Regarding physical fit:*

This unit fits very well in my SureFire 6P and C3 (the targeted hosts), but the SF Z44 head/bezel sits somewhat higher than is standard, yeilding a gap slightly larger than the standard 'Malkoff' gap - I'm guessing maybe 3/16" - I'll get a measurement on this tomorrow. This was expected and discussed earlier in this thread, but I wanted to reiterate that condition - that (very nifty) quad optic does sit rather tall, this cannot be avoided. This is cosmetic, and has no functional importance - the o-ring is still completely covered by a considerable length of head/bezel assembly. I will (hopefully) post photos and measurements of this tomorrow. *Most importantly however, the diameter is an excellent match* - most probably, less than 0.005" of clearance in my SureFire 6P. I can get a better estimate of that when I have access to shim stock (@ workplace).
This unit is a good diameter-fit to my FiveMega 3xC. A Solarforce bezel fits nearly flush with this body when containing this drop-in- an excellent fit lengthwise. Recall that I stated earlier in this thread that SolarForce head/bezels are 'deeper' than the SureFire Z44 head/bezels.
This unit is somewhat undersized in diameter for the SolarForce L2m - this is expected and unavoidable - it was posted earlier in this thread that the Solarforce / Ultrafire / etc bodies have larger IDs for the drop-in. I expect that correct function of the drop-in in these hosts would not be affected, but optimum heatsinking will not be achieved with these hosts unless shim stock or thermal tape is utilized to take up the slack. To get the spring to rest correctly on the larger diameter 'spring shelf' in the solarforce host, I use a thin washer, which works just fine for me. I do this to get a secure spring reference with my SureFire P90 lamp assembly in this host - an outer spring that is SureFire-sized is naturally slightly smaller diameter than an outer spring that is SolarForce/Ultrafire/etc -sized. This is expected and was discussed earlier in this thread. I will hopefully post a photo of this configuration when I can.
I expect this unit will fit just fine with my Nitrolon SureFire G3, but have not tested it yet. Again, as I get more measurements of the complete assembly and more photos I will post them here.
*The short version - this drop-in, while slightly longer than the Malkoff M60, is an excellent fit with respect to diameter, somewhat closer than the Malkoff. This was the OP's goal, IMO.*
*Regarding electrical connectivity*

What is necessary for this unit in all tested configurations is a 'prouder' positive electrical contact, needing to protrude slightly deeper into the host/body. This occurs not only with the very common 'flat-top' AW 2600mAh (a previously well-documented issue with unrelated configurations such as the Eagletac 18650 lights and the FiveMega Megalennium 3x 18650) but also with the standard 'button-top' AW cells pictured below.

Note in the picture below that I have a 'slug' resting on the top of the AW 18650. This simulated a 'prouder' positive nipple. This worked satisfactorily (obtaining an electrical circuit) on all cells tested (18650 flat top, 18500 button top, Alkaline'C') and was required for electrical contact on all configurations. This slug provided more than enough height, and in fact I have a shorter slug at my workplace which I can test as well - I expect that a shorter length will prove optimum and I will try to determine what length is required.







Note in the second of the two close-up photos of the dropins below (the OP's quad prototype and the Malkoff M60) that the slug is 'taking up the slack' that is required for electrical connectivity. I have the adjacent Malkoff M60 spaced up with a coin to simulate the height of both modules going inside the host bodies. As you can see, the slug is comparable in height to the Malkoff inner spring (actually the slug is too high - I will test a shorter slug tomorrow, I expect that ~half of this height is all that is needed). *All this module really needs at this point is an inner spring or solid slug soldered onto the positive end of the circuit to permit it to function properly in all of my P60-type hosts - SureFires (aluminum & nitrolon), SolarForce, and FiveMega.* The current dimensions do not intrude far enough into the battery chamber to electrically connect with my 18mm AW cells - remember that most lights that have been bored to accept 18mm cells still have a retaining shelf that keeps the 18mm cells from sliding too far forward. This is depicted in my measurement diagrams that I have posted on page 2 of this thread. I will test this with narrower 17mm AW LiIon cells tomorrow (which will not be retained by the top lip in the flashlight hosts), but I expect that the issue will be comparable - the small buttons on the (very popular) AW LiIon cells just aren't prominent enough to provide solid contact with this prototype drop-in. *All-in-all, a very simple modification.*













Edit: a post this morning pointed out that the OP stated that only one of the four LEDs were wired on this prototype. I must have missed that - my sincere apologies. I now see that text, so disregard the following:
One last unfortunate issue - I think that this module was damaged during shipping of this prototype (it was international I guess, LOL), three of the black wires had parted from the LED mounting board at the solder joints, so only one of the four LEDs were operational for testing. I only note this so as to explain why I won't be doing the much-anticipated comparison beamshots to my Malkoff M60 - I believe that the final product would have no difficulties in this regard.


Again, I am sorry for the direct, 'just the facts' post. I would very much like to convey more information and more configuration measurements & photos, but this will likely take a few days to put together.

*BTW, this is a very cool drop-in - I like it a lot. :huh:*
*The fact that a P60 drop-in containing four individually-driven XP-G LED's & their optics can fit into the classic SureFire 6P is simply amazing. *
*It truly is a great time to be a flashaholic, *
*K*


----------



## don.gwapo

Wow, sign me up. I have two L2M's to use this drop in when it's available. .


----------



## Noctis

Kestrel said:


> One last unfortunate issue - during shipping of this prototype (it was international I guess, LOL), *three of the black wires had parted from the LED mounting board at the solder joints*, so only one of the four LEDs were operational for testing. I only note this so as to explain why I won't be doing the much-anticipated comparison beamshots to my Malkoff M60 - I believe that the final product would have no difficulties in this regard.


Wait what? :huh2:
I've never heard of something like that happening before unless the light was mounted on a machine gun 10,000 rounds later.

Does this mean I should have a heart attack if I ever drop my light on the ground? Because I already had a nasty experience like that with an expensive laser.

Edit:
Apparently the other 3 LEDs weren't soldered on in the first place.


----------



## Davey

Kestrel said:


> only one of the four LEDs were operational for testing.





VanIsleDSM said:


> I couldn't build this one properly because of the way I had to take apart the original piece, it's a little off center, the optic is a test piece that's all scratched up, and I only bothered to solder up one of the LEDs, but it should serve it's purpose of testing the sizing of the drop-in!



Been watching this one closely! all sounds great and yeah looks like Van only intended one of them to be wired?


----------



## Kestrel

Noctis said:


> Wait what?
> I've never heard of something like that happening before unless the light was mounted on a machine gun 10,000 rounds later.
> 
> Does this mean I should have a heart attack if I ever drop my light on the ground? Because I already had a nasty experience like that with an expensive laser.


 


Davey said:


> all sounds great and yeah looks like Van only intended one of them to be wired?


OK, I missed that earlier, you are correct - my apologies. I see now that only one of the four LEDs were wired prior to this unit being shipped out - I have edited the text in my earlier post last night. I had originally wanted to inquire as to that prior to posting, but I thought folks would be confused if I didn't comment as to output / performance. Sorry for the hasty error.

See, I told ya that my post late last night was not going to be up to my usual posting standards.  I usually take the time to methodically re-read a thread prior to posting if something like this comes up, but I only finished that post at ~1:AM my time. 

Sorry,
K

Edit: Noctis, my text that you quoted above turned out to be incorrect - my mistake. If you would be so kind as to edit your post by adding the explanation I edited in, I would greatly appreciate it. Sorry for the trouble - it was my misunderstanding.


----------



## VanIsleDSM

I'm glad worked! I did intend to design it so there would be no gap when fit together, and from my measurements, the contact area should protrude down enough into the body to make contact on an 18650. This leads me to believe that the drop-in is possibly not dropping all the way in. It could be possible for the spring, which needs to compress up inside the aluminum heatsink, to be pinching around the bottom, and now allow this to happen. 

Or maybe I just didn't end up with exactly what I thought I would.. haha. I have a 6P defender on the way though as mentioned, and I should be able to get the host to close with no gap.

Really appreciate the help with all the measurements and test fitting Kestrel, I'd be a lot further behind on this if it wasn't for your help.


----------



## Kestrel

VanIsleDSM said:


> I did intend to design it so there would be no gap when fit together, and from my measurements, the contact area should protrude down enough into the body to make contact on an 18650.


 
Well, there is pretty much no gap when using the SolarForce bezels, which are pretty important IMO - while the SureFires are the most popular hosts, there seem to be a lot of SolarForce's/UltraFires/etc running around, and these bezels are definitely deeper.

At any rate, I will post individual close-up pics & measurements as I get time (today & tomorrow). I think some of them will end up being quite helpful.



VanIsleDSM said:


> This leads me to believe that the drop-in is possibly not dropping all the way in. It could be possible for the spring, which needs to compress up inside the aluminum heatsink, to be pinching around the bottom, and now allow this to happen.


I'm actually not a big fan of the large outer springs in the inexpensive non-SF drop-ins - I really like how the Malkoff units interface with both SF and non-SF hosts, not using an outer spring at all. I see that your spring can retract completely into the drop-in recess, which is good - I don't think that the spring is a problem here.

Although the drop-in isn't completely seating in to the host (I can see the relieving cuts that you have made on the optic posts, and these cuts do not go completely into the P60 receptacle when the drop-in is inserted as far as it can go into the host, so I think we're on the same page here. However, I think that the distance from the bottom of the heatsink body (or perhaps where the angled bevel occurs) to the top of the optic is the crux of the height issue. Again, I'll post more measurements & photos on this.

However, even if the drop-in goes further into the host, I still believe that there is an contact issue and you will need a center post to ensure reliable electrical contact with the LiIon cells (particularly the very popular flat-top AW 18650). I will verify this this evening, as I will test the narrower 17mm AW cells that are unrestrained and can move up as close to the bottom of the drop-in as they want to. I just don't think that their little (pos) buttons can completely contact the bottom of the drop-in the way it is now.

Of course, I could be wrong on this - if you can get the drop-in to seat further in, both issues may be resolved simultaneously (the protruding (tall) optic and the depth for (pos) nipple contact). I intend to spend more time with everything this evening.

I will post a number of pics and related measurements with all the various host combinations as soon as I am able to.

Also, I have my ideas as to considerations with regards to good constituent materials for heatsinks (Profession: materials engineer. Senior thesis - Thermal conductivity in microelectronic composite materials, M.S. thesis - Explosively-consolidated superconducting ceramic / metallic composites ), although I have been too busy recently to reply to the posts on the heatsink discussion in this thread.


VanIsleDSM said:


> [silver] is by far the best choice to coat and protect the copper with, unless there was a process to plate it in diamond.


LOL, funny coincidence - I've actually done some laboratory research on diamond / copper composites for thermal-conductivity applications. (They're not so good, BTW. )

I can write more later.

Glad to help,
K


----------



## VanIsleDSM

I look forward to hearing your design considerations for heatsinking material.

When you hear of a "copper" heatsink it might not be any better than aluminum if the right alloy isn't used. I often see people quoting thermal resistance or conductance of pure copper, pure aluminum... you need to take into account the alloy you plan to use, as just a few percentage points even, of another material, can throw off the conductance by a large amount.

All of the copper heatsinking material I use will either be C110 or C101 copper, each is nearly pure copper (99.99% for C101 and 99.9% for C110) each with a conductance of 391 W/(m°K). Pure copper has a conductance of 401 W/(m°K), so you can see how much 0.01% makes.

For comparison the conductance of pure aluminum is 237 W/(m°K), and 6061 aluminum, what most all flashlights and heatsinks will be constructed of, is 167 W/(m°K)

There are many alloys of yellow brass, but it's generally between 100-116 W/(m°K)

The heatsink will be plated in pure silver, 430 W/(m°K), the best conducting metal. I couldn't find any conductance figures for sterling silver (92.5% silver) for comparison, but I also didn't look very long.


----------



## bigchelis

I would like to see this Quad in both sub 1A model and a more powerfull counterpart. Then, I could test both of them for OTF lumens to see if all that extra current really helps.

Awesome to hear all the progress:wave:


----------



## VanIsleDSM

I was thinking of what to send you for testing that wouldn't take up too much time, but give comprehensive results. I think that a 1400mA copper unit, a 1050mA copper unit, and a 1050mA aluminum unit, should give a good idea of how well everything is working.

We'll be able to see if the 1400mA unit's output is worth the extra current compared to the 1050mA copper, and the 1050mA aluminum results will tell us how much better the copper heatsink is than the aluminum.

I want to make sure that everything is performing as good as can be, and to utilize the advantages of the copper/silver heatsink as much as possible, I'll prepare each of these drop-ins in a separate host with a glove installed UCL lens and thermal compounds applied. AS5 will be on the threads for head/body, and with the copper/silver heatsink and the hosts I have, I'll be able to use liquid metal, which conducts heat about 8X better than AS5, between the sink and the body.

Normally you can't use liquid metal, as it's corrosive to aluminum, but the drop-in area of the host won't be aluminum, and neither is the sink, so this awesome stuff can finally be utilized in a flashlight.

The aluminum version, will have to stick with AS5.

Pushing the boundaries of LEDs flashlights is fun


----------



## Kestrel

OK, the subjects:​ 


 
... and the tools:​ 


 
Time to get to work. :devil:​


----------



## euroken

oo:...shivering in excitement! :twothumbs


----------



## ptolemy

really interested in sults for FM host as i want to run this in 1 x 26650


----------



## VanIsleDSM

At first I was reluctant to ditch the ground spring and just rely on the contact of the heatsink to the body to conduct the current, as the Malkoff and others do, but I just tested the contact resistance, as best as my equipment allows me to, and it's actually pretty good.

I'm thinking now I may do as others have done, and ditch the problematic grounding spring, even having designed the custom made spring to compress up inside the heatsink to accommodate the smaller diameter needed for the genuine surefire, it's still a pain. Ditching the spring would also allow me to leave more mass in the heatsink.

Is there a gap with the Malkoff on the solarforce host, or does it only have a gap on the surefire?


----------



## Kestrel

First, a SureFire 6P - the most important host.

What I call the 'Malkoff gap', 0.019":






Resting an AW 18650 on the Malkoff M60 spring yields a depth of 0.370" to the neg end of the cell.






The cell can be depressed against the M60 spring to a total depth of 0.490" before the cell bottoms out against the dropin/host. The depth at which the Malkoff M60 can be reached is 3.193" behind the hosts' tail (i.e. where the M60 is referenced against the hosts' retaining lip.

The 'quad' gap, 0.089":






Complete insertion of the AW 18650 yields a depth of 0.529".






At this point the 18650 is actually resting on the lip of the host rather than making contact with the drop-in. Adding a 0.161" height 'slug' to provide electrical connection yields a new cell depth of 0.418".






I'd consider this depth to be ~ optimum, being between the 0.370" and 0.490" as measured with the M60 drop-in (if too deep, the SF Z41 tailcap spring will not make contact with the AW cell).

The depth at which the 'quad' can be reached is 3.235" behind the hosts' tail (i.e. at which point the heatsink of the 'quad' appears to be referenced against the hosts' retaining lip). This is reasonably close to the depth of the M60 (actualy only ~0.040" deeper) - therefore I am reasonably sure that the quad is seated as far as it can be at the moment. Remember the 'quad gap' is 0.070" more than the 'Malkoff gap'.


Take a look at the photos below. While the Malkoff M60 definitely seats against its bottom, perhaps the quad is bottoming out where the angled bevel begins and not where the bottom of the heatsink is. That would explain both the 'proudness' of the optic above the host as well as the recession of the positive contact point. (Sorry for the rotated pics, it is so difficult to fix things in Photobucket once they are uploaded, plus my home connection is pretty crappy.)














Another view, this time of the optic cutouts that were done to provide clearance between the SureFire 6P host. The drop-in is being pressed in to the maximum.






So I cannot conclusively say what the seating issue is, but I'm fairly certain that the dropin spring isn't getting in the way. If the unit is referencing off the angled edge of the heatsink and not the very bottom of the heatsink, you might be able to pick up 0.040" by taking that angle back toward the optic, but you'll still have a 'quad gap' of ~0.030 *in addition to* the original Malkoff gap of 0.019", if my calculations are correct.


OK, that's one hour. I could pursue this with my other hosts at this point, but I'm not inclinded to post pics of similar views - we will get comparable gap deltas, while minimizing it with the deeper SolarForce bezel . We know what the Malkoff is generally a good length fit for these hosts, so I'm just documenting the SureFire 6P for now.

I may post some measurements with other hosts later this evening.

Hope this helps??
K


----------



## Kestrel

ptolemy said:


> really interested in sults for FM host as i want to run this in 1 x 26650


A huge +1 here, I personally love these larger FM hosts and I will provide all the info I can to get good compatibility with these. I very much want to run one of these quads with my FM 3xC host, running 3x 4500 mAh Accupower LSD C NiMH cells in series to get sufficient voltage to run the quad. :thumbsup: It looks like this driver doesn't 'fire up' with only 2.4Vin from 2x NiMH's, so that rules out my much handier FM 2xC. :sigh:



VanIsleDSM said:


> Is there a gap with the Malkoff on the solarforce host, or does it only have a gap on the surefire?


OK, let's see...
(testing both the M60 & the Quad in my Solarforce L2m with the Solarforce head/bezel...)


----------



## VanIsleDSM

I must have calculated the angle wrong, I can't remember what the decimals were, but from your measurements I came up with 9.xx degrees I think, I don't have it in front of me.

So.. it should be no big deal, take a little more material off at the taper and it should sit right in.. I know it's not going down as far as I designed it to, because the contact, the lowest part of the driver, is supposed to drop in past the spring perch that holds down the 18650, so it will make contact when the material has been removed to allow it to do so.

I should have my 6P Defender soon, I ordered from a place only an hour and a half ferry ride away, so it shouldn't take too long, and then I can perfect the fitment.

I am just curious about whether there is a gap with the Malkoff and the Solarforce, as without the grounding spring, the small gap ensures that the head when screwed on, pushes the drop-in onto the spring perch to make good electrical contact. If there is no gap, there would be no pressure, just the fit of the heatsink on the walls.

I think it is prudent to either design this drop-in with a small gap, so it is pressed against the spring perch for contact, which means it would have to be large enough to have a small gap on the Solarforce, which would mean a slightly larger gap on the Surefire, or to use the grounding spring to apply pressure for current transmission and go for no gap.

I would like to make the drop-in with no gap, as I kind of have a fetish for OEM quality and fit in all of my hobbies. This requires me to make the custom spring, and will add some expense, maybe $10 or so overall vs no spring? 

How important is "the gap" to all you CPFers out there? What would you like to see done?


----------



## Kestrel

VanIsleDSM said:


> Is there a gap with the Malkoff on the solarforce host, or does it only have a gap on the surefire?


Very good question. My Solarforce host is so deep as to not securely retain an *M60* with the relatively deep SolarForce head/bezel or the somewhat shallower SureFire Z44 head/bezel. For this type of configuration, I have to place two washers in the SolarForce to elevate the M60 somewhat & provide a positive reference surface:












*Regarding the 'quad' in this host*: This 'spring shelf' is too wide (measurements provided on page 2 of this thread if I recall) for the 'Quad' spring to seat on in its current configuration, so one of these washers still has to be used to give the spring enough of a shelf to reference off of. Utilizing one washer for this purpose (0.033" thickness) results in a secure assembly with a resultant 'quad gap' of only ~0.004". A very good fit. I do dislike these outer springs very very much - it makes for very difficult compatibility between hosts & drop-ins, some of which are designed for this spring (SolarForce) and some of which are not.  Definitely the bane for us 'SureFire LEGO' folks.

*BTW*, even this fitment does not permit a 'button-top' AW 18500 to make an electrical connection with the 'quad', although the forward end of the cell is fully seated and is resting against the thin washer. The top of the 'button' is approximately flush with the top of the washer. *:sigh:*
Since I keep on running into this issue, I would very much recommend adding a small copper 'post' to the bottom of the drop-in to provide reliable electrical connection to various button-top/flat top & 'free-floating'/'shelf-retained' LiIon cells. Something like 0.100" - 0.150" would be perfect IMO - the spring in the tailcap will take up pretty generous tolerances in this regard.


Here's the "test bench", with four separate light sources for taking (somewhat) decent photos: 









FM measurements (listed below) I value highly and are pending:
(& do not give the same difficulties that I had with the SolarForce host above)

While I would like to get these done, I've been LEGOing, measuring, photographing, uploading, & posting for the past three hours now. I'm tired now & am done with this for the evening. 

FM host / SureFire head/bezel
Malkoff gap:
Quad gap:

FM host / Solarforce head/bezel
Malkoff gap:
Quad gap:


----------



## Kestrel

VanIsleDSM said:


> I think it is prudent to either design this drop-in with a small gap, so it is pressed against the spring perch for contact, which means it would have to be large enough to have a small gap on the Solarforce, which would mean a slightly larger gap on the Surefire, or to use the grounding spring to apply pressure for current transmission and go for no gap.
> 
> I would like to make the drop-in with no gap, as I kind of have a fetish for OEM quality and fit in all of my hobbies. This requires me to make the custom spring, and will add some expense, maybe $10 or so overall vs no spring?
> 
> How important is "the gap" to all you CPFers out there? What would you like to see done?


Good questions. In my opinon, this drop-in would be best without a spring for using in the SureFire hosts. Holding tight tolerances with the heatsink while utilizing the slight compressiblity of the optic could pretty much eliminate the gap compared to the Malkoff units - those are 100% incompressible, that's for sure. However, the slightly deeper SolarForce head/bezels change the situation enough to provide difficulties in this regard, since these begin to be more popular on the good non-SureFire hosts such as the FiveMegas.

In addition, the deeper 'well' in the SolarForce/etc hosts pretty much *require* a spring for positive contact, as we've now seen.

The 'recessable' spring was an interesting idea, but getting it to work would entail it being small enough in diameter to fit in the relatively narrow-throated SureFire hosts, while it being large enough so it positively references off the SolarForce/etc somewhat wider spring shelfs. :shrug:


FWIW I just live with the 'Malkoff gap' in my FiveMegas and SureFires, and can use a washer in my SolarForces (resulting in a 'Malkoff gap' in those as well). I don't use any sprung LED dropins, just a narrow-spring SureFire P90 in my SolarForce - so that unit is the only one that doesn't get the gap. <shrug>
I have a Malkoff in a G2L, there is pretty much no gap in that combo, although there is some variability (& some flexibility) in the nitrolon G2's.

I just thought of one significant disadvantage to your units having a 'gap': Any significant frontal impact would simply destroy the plastic optic riser posts, which the head/bezel is essentially referencing off of & creating the head/body gap. The Malkoffs are OK in this regard - a monolithic piece of brass as a front reference surface.

*Edit: You know what might be worth it? A 'solid' unsprung drop-in fitted perfectly to the SureFire (& fitted reasonably well to the FiveMegas) - therefore, good thermal contact on the side, the angle, and the bottom reference edge.* (however, I believe that there is a Malkoff patent on this type of configuration, so something needs to be different! My guess is that the Malkoff patent uses the heatsink to conduct heat to the head/bezel assembly. Your drop-in doesn't do this - the optic is in the way of this thermal path - so maybe this isn't an issue.) *For an additional $10, a precision aluminum insert could be supplied to fit to the 'larger well' SolarForce/etc hosts, with an interior made to duplicate the original SureFire interior. That will result in the best thermal fit possible to a wide variety of hosts. This completely dispenses with the spring (and all the associated difficulties) and maximizes thermal contact in all of the popular hosts.*


----------



## Kestrel

VanIsleDSM said:


> I must have calculated the angle wrong, I can't remember what the decimals were, but from your measurements I came up with 9.xx degrees I think, I don't have it in front of me.
> 
> So.. it should be no big deal, take a little more material off at the taper and it should sit right in.. I know it's not going down as far as I designed it to


BTW, don't take that M60 bevel location (that I placed immediately adjacent to the quad's bevel location in my earlier picture) as gospel, in all likelihood it doesn't mate to the angle in the Surefire hosts, and there is probably an air gap in that angled region between the M60 and the SF 6P body.

I hope that makes some kind of sense, I'm getting very :tired:, I stayed up way too late last night posting my initial impressions on this unit, so I don't want to say up too late tonight... 


Edit: OK, that's it for tonight - I've made a number of edits to my last few posts with a few ideas - clarifications - new thoughts, etc. After this evening's session I'm a little burned out on this, I'm going to try to take one or two days off.


----------



## VanIsleDSM

Haha.. Don't overwork yourself!

I'll get it all figured out once I have my Surefire host. I appreciate your hard work and your ideas, they'll definitely make the final product better!

I had already considered making a piece to drop into the clones that gives them the same profile as a genuine 6P. Would be nice to also include a sleeve to make the inner diameter of the clone the same as the 6P, but the material would be too thin, wouldn't be possible. Copper tape or something will have to be used.

There will hopefully be another option for a host too, to make an improvement in that area. I'm working on a prototype that will have fins for better heat dissipation, and a silver plated copper sleeve where the drop-in sits to transfer the heat to these fins to be dissipated. Sleeve will also include gold plating on the spring perch for electrical contact. When you're working with 5A, it makes all the little things add up to a big difference. I can't say for certain yet if everything will all work out with the build, but if it does they'll be available with the FET switch, UCL lens, and anodized either red, green, blue, yellow, or black (custom colours also an option). The silver plated copper sleeve also allows the use of liquid metal instead of AS5, to provide a far superior thermal contact.


----------



## BigHonu

A HUGE 'Thank You' to Kestrel and VIDSM for working this stuff out! Looking forward to the results!


----------



## Noctis

Kestrel said:


> *Edit: You know what might be worth it? A 'solid' unsprung drop-in fitted perfectly to the SureFire (& fitted reasonably well to the FiveMegas) - therefore, good thermal contact on the side, the angle, and the bottom reference edge.* (however, I believe that there is a Malkoff patent on this type of configuration, so something needs to be different! My guess is that the Malkoff patent uses the heatsink to conduct heat to the head/bezel assembly. Your drop-in doesn't do this - the optic is in the way of this thermal path - so maybe this isn't an issue.) *For an additional $10, a precision aluminum insert could be supplied to fit to the 'larger well' SolarForce/etc hosts, with an interior made to duplicate the original SureFire interior. That will result in the best thermal fit possible to a wide variety of hosts. This completely dispenses with the spring (and all the associated difficulties) and maximizes thermal contact in all of the popular hosts.*


Wouldn't it be easier to wrap it in copper tape? I bought myself a buttload of that and AS5 for my other drop-ins for the sole purpose of maximizing thermal/electrical contact between the module and the host. I figure other people would have done the same.

Also slightly off-topic here, but I ended up with a ton of abrasives for metal. Would heat transfer be improved if I were to polish the interior of the host or drop-in to a mirror finish? Or would that completely mess up the fitting of both parts?


----------



## Kestrel

OK, after a short break & thinking about things some more, I think that my best route for me to contribute in the short-term (i.e. messing with this prototype in my hosts) might be the following:

A fully seated Malkoff M60 of *X1* inches in total length rises *X2* inches above the top of the host (when the head/bezel is removed), and creates a gap of *X3* inches when the head/bezel is screwed down onto the host.

The current Quad prototype is *Y1* inches in total length and rises *Y2* = *(X2+a, since it protrudes 'a' more than the M60)* inches above the top of the host, creating a head/bezel gap of *Y3 = (X3+b, since it creates a larger gap than the M60)* inches. Therefore, the quad really needs to have a total overall length of* X1* minus *X3* to get no gap whatsoever. The shortcut for this situation is to take the *X2+a* length and turn it down to a length of *X2* minus *X3*. Makes sense? :thinking: So I find '*a*' and '*b*' by just taking a couple of comparative measurements. Problem solved, the exact total length (*Y1 new*) and seating depth (which is related to *Y2 new*) (defined by the drop-ins angle/bevel), for the next quad prototype will then be known, resulting in the correct length to result in zero gap when placed in the SureFire 6P. :thumbsup: I'll try to get some measurements on this tomorrow - I'm hoping that I could provide some info so you don't have to do trial-and-error lathe work to get a fully-seating drop-in in your SureFire host that is currently in transit.

I know for a fact that the FiveMega P60-type hosts get a somewhat greater 'Malkoff gap'. So a zero gap in a SF 6P would still result in a small gap in the Fivemegas. I've LEGO'd a fair bit with my stuff and unfortunately this seems to be pretty much unavoidable. 

Then there is that issue with the deeper SolarForce/Ultrafire hosts *&* their head/bezel assemblies  - a unit with zero 'gap' in the SF 6P will get 'end-shake' (& poor electrical contact) in the deeper Solarforce hosts. Reading the above posts, I understand that a full-length sleeve would be too thin to turn down from tube stock. How about a short spacer ring that will fit on the bottom spring shelf of the Solarforce? It could be tall enough to stabilize the quad's side-to-side motion (there is much more delta between the two diameters down there). More importantly, however, a small aluminum ring will prevent the quad from going too deep into the SolarForces, and would be of precise enough of length to result in a near-zero 'quad gap' in the Solarforce hosts and the SolarForce head/bezel assemblies. I think I could figure out some measurements for that simple part.

Life is just so easy once that gnarly non-SF large outer spring is gone, isn't it? :naughty: While the spring in the quad prototype seated pretty well in the SF 6P, it could completely slip off the wider shelf on my SolarForce and slip into the battery chamber. Making it wider would require a wider heatsink recess for it, 'fattening' the bottom of the drop-in and causing it to interfere with the ID just above the SF 6P spring shelf.

OK, I have a plan. I hope to get OAL/bevel location measurements by tomorrow or Friday, and measurements for a Solarforce 'spacer ring base' a few days later.

:huh:

Edit: The cool thing is that I'm pretty well positioned to optimize drop-in fitment using my:

SureFire aluminum hosts (new and old production)
SureFire nitrolon host (slightly different interior measurements (i.e. where it really counts, where the P60 sits) than the SureFire 6P)
FiveMega host (somewhat different measurements than the 6P)
SolarForce host (considerably different measurements than the 6P)
So hopefully, the best overall fit to all of these different hosts could be achieved. While the Malkoff M60 is a great unit, it provides a small gap in the SF 6P, somewhat less of a gap in the SF G2/G3 nitrolons, considerably more gap in the Fivemegas (yes I've measured & compared that), and zero (actually sort of a 'negative gap' if you think about it) in the deeper Solarforces (resulting in end-shake and poor electrical contact when not using a spacer washer or something), which I have also experienced. I agree with the OP's goal, minimizing the cosmetic gap (even more important when you are 'leading with your chin' i.e. the vulnerable plastic optic on the front of the drop-in which the head/bezel assembly may be referencing off of) while maximizing the variety of hosts that can achieve good fitment & electical contact with this unit - very important and a constant minor headache for us SureFire LEGO-ers. :thumbsup::thumbsup: 

The thing is, is that this gap is necessary for the Malkoff drop-ins & the related tolerance stacking in the host/dropin combos, as the Malkoffs are pretty much incompressible. The plastic optic in your quad is noticibly more compressible, this may be enough to minimize any relatively minor resultant gap (due to tolerance considerations) pretty significantly.

OK, I've been working on this post for slightly over an hour, and it's getting late again. 
Take care,
K


----------



## kodama

So after following this thread or trying to follow :thinking:, is the problem trying to get a perfect fit in the SF host or make it a universal fit for clones too? I was at a hobby shop the other day and seen some sculpey and thought it might be good for getting dimensions for the drop-in. Figured you could mash it into the drop-in cavity, heat it up a bit in an oven then pop it out to take measurements off of. I've never really worked with sculpey so I don't know at what rates it might expand or contract when heating. Guess you could pour some molten lead in there if you're hard core but prob ruin the finish .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sculpey
http://www.sculpey.com/products


----------



## Kestrel

kodama said:


> is the problem trying to get a perfect fit in the SF host or make it a universal fit for clones too?


This is the difficult aspect, the OP is trying for both - an optimum fit (mechanically, thermally, and cosmetically) for the popular SureFire 6P, but is still trying to get adequate fit to the other hosts such as the deeper and wider SolarForce/UltraFire hosts. And I'd really like adequate fit to the FiveMega hosts as well - the FiveMegas are some really well-thought out, top-quality bodies that fill very good niches IMO. :huh:



kodama said:


> I was at a hobby shop the other day and seen some sculpey and thought it might be good for getting dimensions for the drop-in. Figured you could mash it into the drop-in cavity, heat it up a bit in an oven then pop it out to take measurements off of.


 
If it was just working the dimensions, I've got that taken care of. Back in the first two pages of this thread, I posted a full suite of precision measurements & partial engineering drawings for my SureFire *&* SolarForce hosts and also both head/bezel assemblies.

The difficulty here is that the head/bezel assembly makes the situation more complicated - it's not just the dimensions of the host cavity that is of concern. For example, the SureFire Z44 head/bezel is rather shallow compared to the also-popular Solarforce head/bezel assembly, and a drop-in that fits well in a SureFire or FiveMega host may end up being a poor fit (to the point of malfunctioning electrically) if this combo is topped up with the popular SolarForce head/bezel assemblies.

For example, on CPF:

Most SureFire hosts use the SF Z44 head/bezels, but the inexpensive (& slightly deeper) SolarForce head/bezels are also used on occasion - they often have those nifty stainless steel bezel rings, and they occupy a very good price point.
Some of the nitrolon SureFire hosts which came with the SF nitrolon head/bezels may be using the aluminum SolarForce head/bezels for better heat handling - those head/bezel assemblies are considerably less expensive upgrades compared to the SureFire Z44's
Some FiveMega hosts have the SF head/bezels on them, while some have the SolarForce/etc ones. For my FiveMega, it's a toss-up, whichever one I might have handy.
Most SolarForce hosts have the SolarForce head/bezels, but I doubt that all of them do.
With somewhat different measurements for all the above situations, it's a real headache - that's eight total combinations just up there. If it was just me, I might prefer just saying, 'SureFire only' (& still getting good fitment with the Fivemegas), but even I ended up eventually purchasing a SolarForce host - I really wanted a single-CR123 P60 light for an inexpensive 5mm LED mod, but the short SureFire 3P's are collector items & very expensive, and the FiveMegas, while excellent & worth every penny, are also pretty pricey. For the 'mess-around', secondary-use types of lights, I'd expect that a fair number of CPFers have a difficult time justifying a complete collection of "expensive" hosts (their words, not mine LOL). 


Overall, it's a pretty difficult set of goals.


----------



## kodama

Kestrel said:


> This is the difficult aspect, the OP is trying for both - an optimum fit (mechanically, thermally, and cosmetically) for the popular SureFire 6P, but still trying to get adequate fit to the other hosts such as the deeper and wider SolarForce/UltraFire hosts. And I'd really like adequate fit to the FiveMega hosts as well - the FiveMegas are some really well-thought out bodies that fill very good niches IMO. :huh:
> 
> 
> The difficulty here is that the head/bezel assembly makes the situation more complicated - it's not just the dimensions of the host cavity that is of concern. For example, the SureFire Z44 head/bezel is rather shallow compared to the also-popular Solarforce head/bezel assembly, and a drop-in that fits well in a SureFire or FiveMega host may end up being a poor fit if this combo is topped up with the popular SolarForce head/bezel assemblies.
> 
> Overall, it's a pretty difficult set of goals.



Ahh, I see the dilemma now! I guess other than making different sized drop-ins, is to make a standard drop-in but use different sleeves tailored for different hosts. This would probably cost quite a bit more :shakehead.


----------



## HarryN

Very nice project.

I push things sometimes as well, but I really don't think you will benefit from using pure copper or pure Al vs another alloy. 

I agree that the thermal and electrical properties are better in the pure materials, but you will likely be dismayed by the challenge of machining them as accurately as the alloys, which is looking like a big deal in this project.


----------



## VanIsleDSM

I'm not using pure aluminum. Just pure copper.

If you don't think that cutting the thermal conductivity of copper in half by adding a few impurities will make a difference then I'm not sure which forum you have 3000 posts on Harry!

I've already machined pure copper, and it is a *****. But it's also the best material to use for the heatsink, other than pure silver.

Kodama, I'll be making a little tapered piece to fit into the clones to give them basically the same inner profile as a surefire, and then some copper tape around the drop-in and it should fit nicely.


----------



## don.gwapo

VanIsleDSM said:


> Kodama, I'll be making a little tapered piece to fit into the clones to give them basically the same inner profile as a surefire, and then some copper tape around the drop-in and it should fit nicely.


Thanks for that coz I got an L2M for this and were patiently waiting that this drop in will be done soon.


----------



## old4570

Tolerances being what they are ? + - .005 at least and then possibly the odd one that goes beyond that .. Making a perfect fit wont work ..

You need a large sample , and then depending on the variables , make to the smallest size [ ones size fits all ] 

Im sure 5 mega might have tighter tolerances than Surefire .. If your going to semi mass produce [ production run ] then you will need to go for a Universal fit [ even for SF ] and that means more measurements . 

Good luck with this , its a really nice drop in ..

Solarforce L2 Measuring down to the step ..

0.910inch
0.910inch 
0.909inch
0.908inch
0.909inch


----------



## VanIsleDSM

Ok.. I've stayed up way too late figuring this out, but finally after racking my brain and laying awake at night envisioning possibilities, I'm pretty sure I've come up with the ultimate way to make the electrical connection, so it's reliable in any host, provides very low resistance, no need for any gaps, and the drop-in won't be referenced off the bezel in case of a drop and strike on that area that could damage the optic.

I think it's a fairly unique system, it uses multiple springs of sorts. I mocked up a test unit just using spring steel, but I've got some beryllium copper on the way for the final product.

Still waiting for my 6P.. I got the order confirmation a while ago, no shipping notice, but not all places notify you of that. I sent them an email today, hopefully hear back soon. I don't want to play the waiting game any more! Takes so long to get everything together...


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## h22

WOW! Verry nice work, add me to the  list. 

If there is a pre pay or sigh up list get me on it!

Personally, as this is probly the biggest baddest drop in, I wouldn't mind spending extra $$$ on a bored surefire host either. 

I'm still waiting on a custom mod from Download, a single SST-50, that is rumored to be over 700lm OTF, but this thing is crazy.

I wouldnt mind the higher current 4, but if the price isn't too bad I may go for both!

Joe


----------



## HarryN

VanIsleDSM said:


> I'm not using pure aluminum. Just pure copper.
> 
> If you don't think that cutting the thermal conductivity of copper in half by adding a few impurities will make a difference then I'm not sure which forum you have 3000 posts on Harry!
> 
> I've already machined pure copper, and it is a *****. But it's also the best material to use for the heatsink, other than pure silver.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> Hi - There is nothing wrong with reducing the thermal path, its just a matter of understanding the balance. ( and I applaud your push for the limits BTW)
> 
> - Inside the XP-G, the thermal path is 6 C / W, so for 3ish watts, nearly 20C
> - The interface from the XP-G to the thermal path is probably another 5 C
> - The copper heat spreader path is probably 1 - 2 C for pure copper, 3 - 4C for imperfect copper.
> - The interface of the drop in to the body is perhaps another 5 C, even with AA and a tight fit.
> - Path from head to air + Body - probably 10 - 20 C
> 
> Total thermal path (not including flashlight to air and body) - is approx 35 C, so the 1-2 C difference for copper is relatively small by comparison.
> 
> Go for it - nothing to loose from doing it !!!


----------



## VanIsleDSM

Ok, an update to where I'm at on this, received my teflon wire today, thanks Mudman!

The 6P should be here wednesday, they only had the floor model left, and they sent me an email asking me if that was ok, but I never received it, so it was never shipped.

So I have time to get the heatsink fitting properly into the genuine 6P, and then the only thing left is the beryllium copper for the spring, I have everything else. The copper spring material should be here next week sometime.

You never know for sure... but I think this next prototype will be the one, and it should be done pretty soon!



Edit: Somehow I didn't see your post at first Harry. I agree using pure copper is definitely not the biggest difference, but it does help, especially multiplied by the power levels being used here. I think your guestimates are probably pretty accurate, except for the LED to thermal path. With solder, a MCPCB, and then some AA to the sink, yeah, probably more than that, but directly soldered to the heatsink I would figure less, around 1C I'd guess. I haven't mentioned yet, that I made a jig to actually clamp the XPGs in place while they are soldered, it's a necessary part of the process for other reasons, but as a nice side effect it will also ensure that the solder layer is as thin as possible, further increasing the efficiency of the thermal path, if only slightly again... they all add up!


----------



## Kestrel

VanIsleDSM said:


> I think this next prototype will be the one, and it should be done pretty soon!


That's cool. I've been way too busy to do any more fiddling with prototype #1 since I last posted, my apologies. I gather that now you're going in a slightly different direction anyhow.
Thanks for all the info BTW, pretty neat to see the process.


----------



## VanIsleDSM

Ok, I have everything now except the driver parts, they should be here any day, this should all come together quite quickly now.

The unique spring design worked well with the spring steel, but once I got the beryllium copper, not quite as well, I didn't like how fatigued it became when I bent it into shape.

So, back to more of a standard spring similar to the drop-in I sent Kestrel, but it doesn't retract inside the drop-in, I wanted to preserve as much thermal mass as possible.

The good news however, is that it fits great, with no gap in my genuine 6P.

I've also completed a silver plated copper drop-in, minus the driver. There were a few processes I was sure would work in it's customized construction, but you never know until you actually follow through. Glad to report it all went very well. It's in front of me right now.. and I can't really stop looking at it.

While I'm waiting for the drivers I'll get work work pumping out some heatsinks, so I'll be ready when they get here.

Sales thread coming soon.


----------



## don.gwapo

What about us L2 users? Will it gona be a perfect fit also?

Can't wait, can't wait. .


----------



## VanIsleDSM

Can't have a perfect fit on L2 and the 6P, L2 has a larger diameter drop-in well. I will make an insert to add the taper to the L2 that the 6P has so the spring will work properly, and then some copper tape around the outside to take up any gap.

I haven't used this copper tape myself, but other say it works.


----------



## smokelaw1

VanIsleDSM said:


> Sales thread coming soon.


 
Best news I've heard yet today!


----------



## Kestrel

VanIsleDSM said:


> While I'm waiting for the drivers I'll get work work pumping out some heatsinks, so I'll be ready when they get here.
> 
> Sales thread coming soon.


Sounds awesome. :thumbsup:

2 questions regarding drivers,
Is there still going to be the configuration flexibility of the driver: (i.e. *1*, *2*, or *3* output modes with no strobe or SOS?
Will there be a future possibility of a 2x LiIon unit? It seems to me that if absolute maximum outputs are desired (as mentioned earlier in the thread), 7.4 Vin would facilitate that - although if there isn't an available driver, then a 2x LiIon unit just wouldn't be possible.
Very interested and looking forward to the final result on these.


----------



## VanIsleDSM

Yes!

Any drop-in will be available as,

5 mode: High-Med-Low-Strobe-SOS
3 mode: High-Med-Low
3 mode: High-Low-Strobe
2 mode: High-Low
1 mode: High

No plans for a 2x Li-Ion unit right now. You can get full output from 1 Cell.


----------



## thaflash_la

This is so cool. I don't know which option I want. All I know is I want.


----------



## mudman cj

Do you happen to know what type of beryllium copper alloy you have and if it has been heat treated? You might not be using the right material for the job, if you are still interested in this material at all. I understand your thinking though, since beryllium copper can have a conductivity almost as high as pure copper.

You're welcome for the wire.


----------



## VanIsleDSM

C172 beryllium copper, for springs. Trying to obtain what temper it is, information isn't available. It'll be 1 of the 19 different tempers for C172 though... haha.

I am still using the beryllium copper, because of how much better it conducts than spring steel. Spring steel is about as electrically conductive as it is malleable.

There might be a better temper, closer to spring steel, but I bet the conductivity would go down. Either way, I'm happy with the design now. Kestrel's initial fitment problems with the drop-in I sent him led me to consider other options for ground connection, but I pretty much ended up right where I started, I think it's the best all around design for electrical contact, fitment, and durability. While my "spider spring" as I was calling it would have provided somewhat better electrical contact, I think durability would have probably suffered, and if I went to a harder temper C172 I'd just lose the extra conductivity and end up building a more elaborate spring for nill.

Working with ~5A you really have to pay attention to this stuff, as it would be pretty easy to have more voltage drop in the switch and contacts than in the LED driver itself.

Whenever I've got some time waiting for parts I've been working on the FET clickie switches, which I think I'll call FETties. Been testing different MOSFETs and such, and have found the winner. FETtie will also have a beryllium copper spring and gold plated contacts for the retaining ring and the battery.

I plan to do some tests at 5A with some different switches if I can get accurate results. The FETtie's FET will have an extremely low on resistance of 2.6milliohm. At 5A this will mean a voltage drop of 0.013V. I'd expect to see more than 10X that from a cheapo clickie.. resulting in noticeable run-time degradation. This is speculation however.. I will check it all out when the FETties are complete. One thing for sure though, they will definitely outlast any regular clickie, with the current being switched by a solid state semiconductor vs. a mechanical contact.


----------



## kodama

VanIsleDSM said:


> While I'm waiting for the drivers I'll get work work pumping out some heatsinks, so I'll be ready when they get here.
> 
> Sales thread coming soon.



Yes! But please put people that wanted one from this thread on top of your list. It would be very disappointing to the people that said they wanted one here, only to miss the new sales thread for a day or two and you ran out of drop-ins. Happened to me before and it sucked


----------



## edelbrock

Very interested in this. It is cool to see the development that goes into this module. When those lucky enough to get one use it they can refer to the thread for every detail that went into making it. I hope I am one of the lucky ones because I believe these will go fast. :thumbsup:


----------



## VanIsleDSM

kodama said:


> Yes! But please put people that wanted one from this thread on top of your list. It would be very disappointing to the people that said they wanted one here, only to miss the new sales thread for a day or two and you ran out of drop-ins. Happened to me before and it sucked



When I make the sales thread I'll go through this one, and in order add everyone who expressed interest to a reserve list for a couple days to give them first chance.


----------



## kodama

VanIsleDSM said:


> When I make the sales thread I'll go through this one, and in order add everyone who expressed interest to a reserve list for a couple days to give them first chance.



Awesome! Thank you :twothumbs


----------



## ptolemy

VanIsleDSM said:


> When I make the sales thread I'll go through this one, and in order add everyone who expressed interest to a reserve list for a couple days to give them first chance.


 are price points been announced yet>?


----------



## daimleramg

please add me to the list if there is one


----------



## euroken

VanIsleDSM said:


> When I make the sales thread I'll go through this one, and in order add everyone who expressed interest to a reserve list for a couple days to give them first chance.


 

:twothumbs:twothumbs:twothumbs

Thank you!


----------



## don.gwapo

I hope you will consider and accept money order as one other method of payment when your drop in will be available.


----------



## VanIsleDSM

All of the payment and price stuff will be for the sales thread.. This one started out as a development and I'd like to keep it on track. As edelbrock mentioned, it'll contain a lot of detailed information about the drop-in for those that have one.


----------



## Noctis

Hmm, almost makes me regret buying an M61...at least until the runtimes smack me upside the head, but I guess that's what the low mode is for


----------



## VanIsleDSM

Yeah.. that's the thing with something with such high power capability, on medium it'll be putting out 35%, a pathetic 617 lumen with 2A draw for the 1400mA unit, and 520 lumen with 1.5A draw for the 1050mA unit, so you get good run time and output... and you have that 100% high for when you want it :devil:

Rough figures obviously, but either way, this quad on medium will slaughter your standard single die emitter with only slightly more drive current.

I have a few, but thought I'd make another LED order so I have a half decent amount when everything kicks off.

I've got,

R5 Flux 6300K 1C Tint

R4 Flux 4250K 5B1 Tint (I love these, my they'll be in my personal Quad)

Q5 Flux 3000K 7D2 Tint (Not a yellow overload like some warm white, lots of red)

If someone has some of their own XPGs, or know where to get a specific bin they want, I can order and use them if desired.


----------



## Chevy-SS

VanIsleDSM said:


> When I make the sales thread I'll go through this one, and in order add everyone who expressed interest to a reserve list for a couple days to give them first chance.



Yeah, thanks man.  I expressed interest early on and I'm following this thread closely. This looks awesome, so I am really excited about it. I will take one immediately upon availability. If it works as advertised, I will definitely be back for more, as I have lots of friends that are looking for a true "sun in the pocket"!

Thanks

-


----------



## Chevy-SS

VanIsleDSM said:


> Yeah.. that's the thing with something with such high power capability, on medium it'll be putting out 35%, a pathetic 617 lumen with 2A draw for the 1400mA unit, and 520 lumen with 1.5A draw for the 1050mA unit, so you get good run time and output... and you have that 100% high for when you want it :devil:
> 
> Rough figures obviously, but either way, this quad on medium will slaughter your standard single die emitter with only slightly more drive current........




Woot, this sounds terrific. *Is there anything I will need besides a 6P host? Or will you be selling hosts too?* _EDIT: just ordered two Surefire 6P's. I think I might have to buy two of these drop-ins......_

Many thanks for this. IMHO, you're gonna have a real winner if this thing works...... I think there are a lot of people looking for something with massive power in a small package.

-


----------



## one2tim

Put me on the list please, been following this thread for long time now


----------



## arek98

Can't wait. Just leting you know that I'm still interested :thumbsup:



VanIsleDSM said:


> R4 Flux 4250K 5B1 Tint (I love these, my they'll be in my personal Quad).


 
This looks like great tint!


----------



## TomInOregon

Please also add me to the list, dependent on price. I have been following this thread since the beginning with interest. That R4 5B1 tint sounds good!

Thanks,
Tom


----------



## TSWrench

Nice job on designing this drop-in. Please add me to the list for an R4 Flux 4250K 5B1 Tint . PayPal ready and waiting when you are.


----------



## PolarBearX

That 4250k sounds sweet, still, even more, interested now...any chance of some more beamshots in the yard now using yours? And maybe some
shots of a module going together, please  I like to see the quality.

And just because I got confused reading all the updates, you're using an outer spring now? I still want this in my solarforce l2p 18650 ready host, at most I'd prefer not having to do more than wrap the module, keeps costs down.

thanks, 

PBX


----------



## Gryffin

Please add me to the list, too. I could use a photon cannon like this!


----------



## h22

think I already expressed interest, but just to be safe....


----------



## Noctis

I respectfully request beamshots of the different tints.


----------



## merdock69

I'd be interested in one of these.


----------



## ptolemy

h22 said:


> think I already expressed interest, but just to be safe....


 i think mine is well known from page 1 or 2 but just in case

ditto!


----------



## Chrontius

Depending on if I can afford one, I'm interested. 

Will there ever be an E-series FETtie? Or perhaps one in the form factor of a McClicky?


----------



## VanIsleDSM

I'll get some beamshots of the different tints when I have them together.

I'm not exactly sure what form factor the McClicky is, doesn't it fit 6P as well?

I was planning on making the FETtie to fit the 6P and clones, but it would be possible to make another version if there was interest.

I have an ultrafire flashlight that uses an 18mm reflector, a 16340, and the LED heatsink threads into the light, what "form factor" or "series" is this type of light? I'm thinking that would be a good host for a drop-in. I'm also interested in doing some mag stuff. Not until these quads are in production though..

Hoping my driver parts arrive here Monday


----------



## flashfiend

McClicky needs an adapter to fit in the 6p. IIRC


----------



## gostanova




----------



## Chevy-SS

VanIsleDSM said:


> Yes!
> 
> Any drop-in will be available as,
> 
> 5 mode: High-Med-Low-Strobe-SOS
> 3 mode: High-Med-Low
> 3 mode: High-Low-Strobe
> 2 mode: High-Low
> 1 mode: High
> 
> No plans for a 2x Li-Ion unit right now. You can get full output from 1 Cell.




Hey, quick question on the modes.

Will we be able to set at least one mode as the 'default' mode?

thanks

-


----------



## smokelaw1

I think my initial indication of interest was in PM on the first day you were talking about these on CPF! I'm still in for a one stage, and would love a two stage as well!!!!


----------



## EvilPaul2112

Interested in a single stage. Any ideas on runtimes?


----------



## Tedfs

I am also interested in a single stage but am wondering how the 2 stage will work.

Is the momentary on low and full on click high ?


----------



## thaflash_la

I'm normally not interested in anything other than single stage, but this thing would still be super bright on the low setting so an accidental switch to low wouldn't be terrible. 

Fettie is a great idea in general. 

I can't wait.


----------



## Chevy-SS

thaflash_la said:


> I'm normally not interested in anything other than single stage, but this thing would still be super bright on the low setting so an accidental switch to low wouldn't be terrible.
> 
> Fettie is a great idea in general.
> 
> I can't wait.



What do the terms "*single stage*" and "*fettie*" mean? Thanks..............



-


----------



## thaflash_la

I use the term "single state" for 1 mode (high only). I don't know why, it's just what comes to my mind.

Fettie, if I understand it correctly is essentially a replacement of the switch in the tailcap to use a MOSFET. This would basically be a solid state relay which prevents arcing in high current switches and delivers more constant electricity.


----------



## pee10755

please put me on the list.


----------



## VanIsleDSM

Mode switching will be done by momentarily turning off the light, nothing fancy. For a reverse clicky that means a momentary push while the light is on. For a forward, momentarily push, let go, and push again to switch modes, once you're on the mode you want, click it in.

The FETtie is a switch that uses a MOSFET to switch the current rather than a mechanical switch. The switch just turns on the FET. Works just like a relay, but instead of a solenoid making a mechanical latch to conduct current, the FET is a solid state semiconductor, that conducts current under the right conditions.

Still waiting for driver parts... I have 2 orders coming. One is from a little while ago with standard shipping, and I ordered more yesterday express shipping... Hopefully one of them will be here soon!

Meanwhile, I've had time to complete the FETtie. Final prototype done and ready for production, though of course, I'm waiting on parts to start making them in multiples.









Ingredients:

24K gold plated polished copper contacts
Pure silver plated 17 gauge beryllium copper spring
0.0026 Rds(on),MAX very high quality MOSFET rated to 100A, 20V
Modular construction, mechanical switch is easily replaced.

I wouldn't go pushing 100A through it, as it's not heatsinked to handle that current, Keeping around 0.5W for heat would quite safe, which would mean around 14A, which should be plenty for most people, definitely more than enough for my drop-in. Of course.. there are always those that push it, I'm sure it could do more... 

To figure out wattage burned in the MOSFET, use Ohm's Law:

14A x 0.0026R = 0.0364V (Voltage drop across MOSFET due to it's resistance)

Now to get the power dissipated, multiply Volts and Amps, 14A x 0.0364V = 0.5096W

At first the FETtie will only be available as a reverse clicky (which I prefer myself) but planning to also make a forward clicky version if possible, looking into that right now.

The switch itself is common, and can be replaced without solder, though it shouldn't need to be, as it will only be carrying nanoamps through it, and the connections are what usually go. After a lot of use the moving parts for the latching mechanism will eventually wear out, usually this is after 10,000-50,000 clicks or so. But 5 or 10 years isn't long enough for the FETtie, it's built to last forever, so the mechanical switch had to be easily replaceable.

The switch fits easily in the clones, and looks like it should be no problem in a genuine 6P either, though there are so many different types of surefire tail switches... I'll post more pictures of this and the switch soon. Before I show too much detail I want to make sure my design is protected, going through that right now. I'm surprised nobody has called me on it, as I know there are quite a few on these forums with quite a bit of electronic knowledge, but there is a secret to making the FETtie work. Normally it wouldn't be possible to use a MOSFET in a tail switch, as there's no potential available, which is why I suspect I've never seen it done before. I have a little trick up my sleeve though 

Now bring on the driver parts postman!


----------



## don.gwapo

VanIsleDSM said:


> Final prototype done and ready for production, though of course, I'm waiting on parts to start making them in multiples.
> 
> Now bring on the driver parts postman!


 
This is the best news for all of us. Thank you for making this drop in and sharing it to us. Patiently waiting for the final product. lovecpf.


----------



## Noctis

VanIsleDSM said:


> Mode switching will be done by momentarily turning off the light, nothing fancy. For a reverse clicky that means a momentary push while the light is on. For a forward, momentarily push, let go, and push again to switch modes, once you're on the mode you want, click it in.
> 
> The FETtie is a switch that uses a MOSFET to switch the current rather than a mechanical switch. The switch just turns on the FET. Works just like a relay, but instead of a solenoid making a mechanical latch to conduct current, the FET is a solid state semiconductor, that conducts current under the right conditions.
> 
> Still waiting for driver parts... I have 2 orders coming. One is from a little while ago with standard shipping, and I ordered more yesterday express shipping... Hopefully one of them will be here soon!
> 
> Meanwhile, I've had time to complete the FETtie. Final prototype done and ready for production, though of course, I'm waiting on parts to start making them in multiples.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ingredients:
> 
> 24K gold plated polished copper contacts
> Pure silver plated 17 gauge beryllium copper spring
> 0.0026 Rds(on),MAX very high quality MOSFET rated to 100A, 20V
> Modular construction, mechanical switch is easily replaced.
> 
> I wouldn't go pushing 100A through it, as it's not heatsinked to handle that current, Keeping around 0.5W for heat would quite safe, which would mean around 14A, which should be plenty for most people, definitely more than enough for my drop-in. Of course.. there are always those that push it, I'm sure it could do more...
> 
> To figure out wattage burned in the MOSFET, use Ohm's Law:
> 
> 14A x 0.0026R = 0.0364V (Voltage drop across MOSFET due to it's resistance)
> 
> Now to get the power dissipated, multiply Volts and Amps, 14A x 0.0364V = 0.5096W
> 
> At first the FETtie will only be available as a reverse clicky (which I prefer myself) but planning to also make a forward clicky version if possible, looking into that right now.
> 
> The switch itself is common, and can be replaced without solder, though it shouldn't need to be, as it will only be carrying nanoamps through it, and the connections are what usually go. After a lot of use the moving parts for the latching mechanism will eventually wear out, usually this is after 10,000-50,000 clicks or so. But 5 or 10 years isn't long enough for the FETtie, it's built to last forever, so the mechanical switch had to be easily replaceable.
> 
> The switch fits easily in the clones, and looks like it should be no problem in a genuine 6P either, though there are so many different types of surefire tail switches... I'll post more pictures of this and the switch soon. Before I show too much detail I want to make sure my design is protected, going through that right now. I'm surprised nobody has called me on it, as I know there are quite a few on these forums with quite a bit of electronic knowledge, but there is a secret to making the FETtie work. Normally it wouldn't be possible to use a MOSFET in a tail switch, as there's no potential available, which is why I suspect I've never seen it done before. I have a little trick up my sleeve though
> 
> Now bring on the driver parts postman!


Hmm, is that FETtie necessary for maximum performance? I have a McClicky installed in my 6P, and I'm somewhat of a technical dimwit, so installing another switch might be beyond me.

I'd definitely like to try it to see if it will boost the juice into my SST-90 direct drive, but I get the ominous feeling that I might chip the tailcap or break it entirely trying to install it myself.

Also, would it be safe to use an AW 18650 2600mAh battery with your module? Someone mentioned that 5.2A would be the maximum safe draw for that battery, and anything more would risk damaging the battery.


----------



## VanIsleDSM

FETtie isn't absolutely necessary, it will increase output in direct drive lights, and provide longer run times on regulated lights.

McClicky I've heard is good to 5A, but I've done no testing on this myself. I should get one to see what the resistance looks like at 5A.

FETtie is really simple to install. You just drop it in and then screw in the retaining ring with some needle nose pliers, no risk of chipping or breaking anything. Maybe I'll make a video so you can see how easy it is.

As for draw on an 18650, the 1000mA per LED version will obviously be fine, and the 1400mA version may be slightly over the "2C" discharge rate for an 18650, unless you score some of those 2800-3000mAh panasonic, sanyo, or LG cells. Some may not be comfortable with LiCo and want to use an IMR.. myself, I'm not too concerned with knocking a few charge cycles off the Li-Co by drawing a couple hundred more milliamps than "2C".


----------



## flashfiend

Will your FETtie switch be compatible with the FiveMega C (26xxx) Host Tail and is this switch going to be included with the drop-in? I am asking because I am concerned with connectivity issues with the tail having some of its threads anodized. For instance Electron Guru's McClicky adapter will not work but fortunately FM includes an adapter for this purpose.


----------



## 021411

Put me down for 1 mode.


----------



## Bimmerboy

Wow, man... I've been tracking this thread daily since post #26, and trying VERY hard not to commit... easily deduced by all to be caused by tight finanaces (could there be much other reason to hesitate on this item?).

Just wanna' say you're making it very tough to not break out into the Wilma Flintstone/Betty Rubble battle cry of "_CHARRRRRGE IT!!!_"

Getting closer. After all, I did get my C2 bored for such a drop-in solution.

Bad, VanIsleDSM! BAD!! :devil:


----------



## Noctis

What's the good word on these?

I'd kill for just the FETtie switch right now.

I just burned up a McClicky by direct driving my SST-90, and I need something tough enough to handle it.


----------



## nfetterly

Yeah I'm in, 1x18650 is my favorite format, multi mode (2 or 3 MUCH preferred) is close to a must for all round industrial use.


----------



## bullettproof

Let me know a price I like it. M2 Head on a 26500 FM host:candle:


----------



## Noctis

Stick this baby in an FM 26650 host with the 4000mAh IMR battery and you'll have an obscene runtime.


----------



## VanIsleDSM

Still waiting for driver parts, should be here any day now... This wait is killing me!


----------



## don.gwapo

I'm very very very sad that this drop-in is almost complete and ready for sale. Going out of the state for two months this thursday for my course review. How I wish I can still avail this drop-in when i'm back here in the states in july. Congratulations in advance for those lucky ones who will be having this amazing drop-in and good luck to you vanisledsm. :sigh: :sigh: :sigh::mecry::mecry::mecry:.


----------



## Noctis

VanIsleDSM said:


> Still waiting for driver parts, should be here any day now... This wait is killing me!


It's killing me too.

Now I regret spending so much money on more hosts .

However, a 26650 host should give it almost an hour of runtime on high, and a finned P60 bezel should help with the heat generation so that I can enjoy a nice long walk in broad daylight when it's past 9 PM:devil:.


----------



## flashfiend

Hi VanIsleDSM,

Can you confirm the FETtie switch fits in a 26650 (FiveMega) host? I believe Kestrel helped you with the P60 drop-in fit and one of his test hosts was similar to the one I'm mentioning. Just wondering if he confirmed fit and function for your switch as well. Thanks


----------



## VanIsleDSM

I haven't checked fitment of the FETtie in an FM host yet. What type of switch do they normally use? Do they have a retaining ring to hold the switch in?

I imagine the threads on the 26650 are larger diameter, and maybe some type of specific retaining ring would need to be made to hold the FETtie in there and make contact, but I just don't know for sure, I don't know what an FM tailcap looks like.

If someone can post up what an FM 26650 tail cap and switch look like it would help out quite a bit.


----------



## Noctis

VanIsleDSM said:


> I haven't checked fitment of the FETtie in an FM host yet. What type of switch do they normally use? Do they have a retaining ring to hold the switch in?
> 
> I imagine the threads on the 26650 are larger diameter, and maybe some type of specific retaining ring would need to be made to hold the FETtie in there and make contact, but I just don't know for sure, I don't know what an FM tailcap looks like.
> 
> If someone can post up what an FM 26650 tail cap and switch look like it would help out quite a bit.


Well, it uses a McClicky switch, and he says it uses an adaptor for that.
If it's anything like the McClicky in my Z41 tailcap, it simply screws right in without a retaining ring.


----------



## Kestrel

flashfiend said:


> Can you confirm the FETtie switch fits in a 26650 (FiveMega) host? I believe Kestrel helped you with the P60 drop-in fit and one of his test hosts was similar to the one I'm mentioning. Just wondering if he confirmed fit and function for your switch as well. Thanks


While I would help on this if I could, I would be only able to evaluate my older FM P60-type 'C'-cell bodies w/ the stock clickie switch that came pre-installed in the tailcap. The newer (& more common) FM 26500/26650 bodies are for the McClickies or user-installed clickies, which I would guess have good chance of being a different form factor. I'm sure that there are others here who could give a better evaluation of the clickie switch format in the newer FM bodies / tailcaps. Sorry.

Edit: If the two switches (new version & older version) do mount the same exact way, I have a spare clicky for my older FM body and would be happy to mail it to VIDSM along with his roughed-out drop-in prototype that I'm mailing back anyhow. Please let me know, it wouldn't be a problem on my end.


----------



## yalskey

Put me down for one of these awesome drop-ins. I'm not sure which one / what options I'll get, but hold me a spot for now, would you?

I'm going to wait until the final products are, well, finalized before I decide which to get. Either way, I'm down for at least 1.

I wonder if this will fit inside my Dereelight CL1H v4? It accepts P60 modules. Not to worry though, I have a 6PD, although it's not bored for 18650's. :-(

Let me know when stuff is available.

Amazing work by the way.


----------



## flashfiend

Kestrel said:


> While I would help on this if I could, I would be only able to evaluate my older FM P60-type 'C'-cell bodies w/ the stock clickie switch that came pre-installed in the tailcap. The newer (& more common) FM 26500/26650 bodies are for the McClickies or user-installed clickies, which I would guess have good chance of being a different form factor. I'm sure that there are others here who could give a better evaluation of the clickie switch format in the newer FM bodies / tailcaps. Sorry.
> 
> Edit: If the two switches (new version & older version) do mount the same exact way, I have a spare clicky for my older FM body and would be happy to mail it to VIDSM along with his roughed-out drop-in prototype that I'm mailing back anyhow. Please let me know, it wouldn't be a problem on my end.



Just looked at the picture of your hosts again and did not realize until now that you have the older FM 'C' host. Not sure if those came with a McClicky or not. Anyways, I have the newer host for the 26650 and the 26500 batteries. It does fit the McClicky if you use the included adapter which is basically a threaded collar with flange. It can use the AW Soft Start for Surefire P series without the FM adapter however when I tried using it with an ElectronGuru McClicky and Brass Adapter for Surefire P series tail it did not work. The difference between the two switches iirc is the ElectronGuru kit was not thick enough to firmly hold the McClicky between the rubber boot and the tailcap. Due to the McClicky housing being plastic there was no metal to metal contact between the adapter and switch. The AW switch in contrast is housed in brass and the included collar which threads into the switch is brass itself also (although I was concerned because the FM tailcap is anodized at the threads where the collar attaches) Surprisingly there are no threads on the interior of either of these adapters for the switch to attach to them. The switches can slide freely in the adapters. Contrast that with the FM adapter which provides interior threading to hold down the McClicky.

If I get a chance I will try to take some pictures to clarify.


----------



## ftumch33

I`ve been hoping to find something obscenely bright for my EDC and I think this is definitely it!
If possible I humbly request to be put down for at least 1


----------



## VanIsleDSM

The internal threads on the FM tailcap can't all be anodized, or the tailcap wouldn't make the ground connection to the body of the flashlight, unless it's made simply by compression somewhere, which wouldn't be prefered, aluminum builds a pretty heavy oxide in air (like it was anodized but much thinner) so you want the most surface area possible, which would be the threads.

I suppose the worse case scenario would be using an adapter to fit the larger diameter, and possibly having to fill your tailcap with draino, leave the switch boot in so it doesn't leak out, to remove the anodizing. I don't understand though, why the tailcap threads would be anodized, unless it was just easier to produce that way. Hopefully that was just one tailcap that happened to, as it doesn't make sense to anodize that area.

The FETtie is the same form factor as the solarforce/clone switches. It drops in and then the retaining rings holds it in place and makes a firm electrical connection from the gold plated contact ring on the FETtie to the tailcap threads.

I still have to yank the switch out of my genuine 6P, looks like I have to unscrew the back of the switch or something? there are 6 holes in the back of it. It doesn't want to thread out on it's own, and there's no retaining ring. I don't think there will be any problem fitting the FETtie though, diameter is the same, as are the threads, which aren't anodized.


----------



## flashfiend

FM Tail assembled






McClicky





FM Tail Adapter





FM Tail no switch





Sorry the last and likely most important pic is pretty crappy but hopefully you get the idea. FM likes to anodize all his threading so some type of metal needs to either make contact at the bottom just above the boot or rise over the edge just above the anodized inner thread. This inner thread just above the boot is the same size and spec as a switch for the Z41 tailcap.


----------



## VanIsleDSM

Looks to me like the McClicky makes contact exactly like the FETtie does. By the retaining ring squishing the switch down and making contact between the metal ring around the outside of the switch, and the threads of the tailcap. Or, since the threads are anodized, it will contact against one of the bare surfaces in the tailcap like it does with the McClicky.

A regular size retaining ring may even be usable, as the FM tailcap looks like it has the smaller threads further down, though there may not be enough depth available.

The only way to tell for sure is for me to either acquire an FM tailcap from someone to test, or to send out a FETtie to check the fitment. I prefer the first option if anything doesn't work, as it's much easier for me to see what I need to do to make it work, but if someone is getting themselves a FETtie for their 6P anyway, and has an FM host to test in, I have one completed right now, that I could send out.


----------



## Noctis

VanIsleDSM said:


> Looks to me like the McClicky makes contact exactly like the FETtie does. By the retaining ring squishing the switch down and making contact between the metal ring around the outside of the switch, and the threads of the tailcap. Or, since the threads are anodized, it will contact against one of the bare surfaces in the tailcap like it does with the McClicky.
> 
> A regular size retaining ring may even be usable, as the FM tailcap looks like it has the smaller threads further down, though there may not be enough depth available.
> 
> The only way to tell for sure is for me to either acquire an FM tailcap from someone to test, or to send out a FETtie to check the fitment. I prefer the first option if anything doesn't work, as it's much easier for me to see what I need to do to make it work, but if someone is getting themselves a FETtie for their 6P anyway, and has an FM host to test in, I have one completed right now, that I could send out.


Simplest solution would to be ask FM for a tailcap, but I personally think that so long as the FETtie can fit in a Z41 Surefire tailcap, it'll fit fine in the FM tailcap.

The FETtie might have a different size, but so long as the retaining ring fits in the tailcap, everything should fit fine.



fivemega said:


> Noctis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I was wondering if you could have a look at this thread where there's a question of whether or not the custom switch would fit in one of your tailcaps:
> https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/267366&page=7
> 
> Since it's a P60 module, I'm guessing it would be a specific reference to one of your 1x26650 P60 hosts.
> 
> --Herman
> 
> 
> 
> *Pictures in post #187 clearly showes how McClicky switch fits in retainer ring then fits in tail cap of 26XXX body.
> FYI, older version of 25XXX uses different switch which does not need retaining ring and directly fits in tail cap.
> However, I have no idea how custom switch of FETtie look like and how much room it needs.*
Click to expand...


----------



## flashfiend

VanIsleDSM, quid pro quo...

Could you possibly provide pictures of your FETtie switch outside of the tail cap? Is the switch a one-piece unit that screws into the tailcap or is it two pieces with a collar? If it is two pieces, does the inner piece screw into the collar piece? And finally is there exposed metal at the tailmost portion of the switch?

Answers to these questions could help me to determine if indeed this switch will work in an FM26650 host.

Thank you.


----------



## flashfiend

Noctis said:


> Simplest solution would to be ask FM for a tailcap, but I personally think that so long as the FETtie can fit in a Z41 Surefire tailcap, it'll fit fine in the FM tailcap.
> 
> The FETtie might have a different size, but so long as the retaining ring fits in the tailcap, everything should fit fine.



Noctis, it's not just a matter of fit as most likely it will fit fine in the cap. The bigger issue here is if the switch can make electrical contact with the tailcap.


----------



## Noctis

flashfiend said:


> Noctis, it's not just a matter of fit as most likely it will fit fine in the cap. The bigger issue here is if the switch can make electrical contact with the tailcap.


Say what? :huh2:

I didn't think that was the issue at all.

Looking back at my custom HA 6P host from ElectronGuru, the anodizing was over the threads of the body, bezel, and tailcap. So I assume the electrical path isn't through the threads at all. The very bottom of the body had bare aluminum exposed. 

I simply assumed that the electrical path went from the negative contact in the battery, through the springs, into the brass retaining ring of my McClicky, and to the bottom of the host body. In which case, it shouldn't be much of an issue.


----------



## flashfiend

Remember the housing of the McClicky is mostly plastic. It only has two electrical contact points. The ElectronGuru brass collar provides the electrical contact to the host and the McClicky is press fit to the collar by the tail and boot. Now I can fit the EG brass collar into FM's tailcap but because of the tailcap size the McClicky can float freely away from the collar and thus losing electrical contact. FM's adapter does not have this issue because the McClicky screws into his adapter. The flange on his adapter provides even further contact area to the tailcap. Not sure if you have an FM 26xxx host yet but try using EG's collar w/ McCLicky if you do have it. You will see what I mean.


----------



## psychbeat

UNREAL!!!!
please put me down too.....gonna have to sell something...
this is outta control- id like the neutral in two mode if it happens!
thanks!


----------



## VanIsleDSM

I just got word why my express order hasn't shipped. Out of stock until May 18th. I like how they wait until now to tell me. Bad timing for this, but I will be getting the parts ASAP. I've already starting building heatsinks, so after the driver parts arrive the only downtime will be putting the drivers together and final assembly, though building the drivers is one of the more time consuming tasks.

I'd like to get a 26650 FM host for myself, and then I could just see how everything fits, but looks like he only has the 26500s left, and I'd much rather have a 26650.

I was waiting to post more pictures of the FETtie until I had protected my design, which is done now, so I will take some more pictures today and post them up.


----------



## RedfishBluefish

Interesting thread, add me to your list.


----------



## Noctis

VanIsleDSM said:


> I just got word why my express order hasn't shipped. Out of stock until May 18th. I like how they wait until now to tell me. Bad timing for this, but I will be getting the parts ASAP. I've already starting building heatsinks, so after the driver parts arrive the only downtime will be putting the drivers together and final assembly, though building the drivers is one of the more time consuming tasks.
> 
> I'd like to get a 26650 FM host for myself, and then I could just see how everything fits, but looks like he only has the 26500s left, and I'd much rather have a 26650.
> 
> I was waiting to post more pictures of the FETtie until I had protected my design, which is done now, so I will take some more pictures today and post them up.


If you have another FETtie available, I'd like to purchase one now for my 6P host. I believe the FETtie will sell as well as the module itself, if not better.

I'd guess the "simple" solution would be to try and make the FETtie the same size as the McClicky so that you could put it in both retaining rings(Brass McClicky from ElectronGuru for the Surefire hosts, adaptor for the FM hosts). Though that might be easier said than done.

Still, in the long run I might want the FETtie to fit in my 1x26650 host since the larger battery capacity makes it more suitable for Direct Drive modules. Though the necessary adjustment would more or less be to machine a retaining ring that holds the switch snugly inside the FM tailcap right?

My FM 1x26650 host won't ship out until June, and I'm sure it's the same with others as well.

The most direct solution is to get either flashfiend or FiveMega to send you a 1x 26650 tailcap.


----------



## rrt0000

Very interested in this one. :O

I'm new to the world of lights atm. Have some bought some offerings from 4/7 as well as a few solarforce p60 hosts with various dropins.

After skimming the first few pages (I'm sick at the moment so dont have enough concentration to read everything) - it looks like I will need a surefire 6p host as these do not fit in the solarforce l2p. Is that correct?


----------



## Noctis

rrt0000 said:


> Very interested in this one. :O
> 
> I'm new to the world of lights atm. Have some bought some offerings from 4/7 as well as a few solarforce p60 hosts with various dropins.
> 
> After skimming the first few pages (I'm sick at the moment so dont have enough concentration to read everything) - it looks like I will need a surefire 6p host as these do not fit in the solarforce l2p. Is that correct?


IIRC, it will fit the solarforce l2p, it just might have a bit of a gap. But again, IIRC, VanIsleDSM will be releasing a metal ring that fills in the gap so that it fits snugly inside the head. You just have to tell him what host you're using.


----------



## flashfiend

I'm possibly willing to lend a FM 26xxx switch for testing, but I'm not sure what the cost and process is for shipping to Canada. Otherwise, I would have offered to send this a while ago.

Any idea on the best way to do this?

Also, I'm gathering the FETtie switch is an extra purchase item in this project. Is that correct?


----------



## Noctis

Say, what's the regulation going to be like for this module?

Also, are there more beamshots?

I'd also be interested if this thing was put through some rigorous testing to see what continuous runtimes and heat buildup is like, as well as to see if there is any significant effects from overdrawing the battery(quick battery death, exploding cells).


----------



## bigchelis

I have been following this thread and the work and research you folks put into this is amazing. Good job:twothumbs


I should be testing the Moddoo Tripple XP-G for OTF lumens today and look forward to this Quad for real OTF readings.


Keep up the work guys!!


----------



## Noctis

Bump for the FETtie


----------



## flashfiend

Bump, hoping for more info about FETtie and drop-in. Btw, what might be an estimated price for the FETtie switch?


----------



## Noctis

flashfiend said:


> Bump, hoping for more info about FETtie and drop-in. Btw, what might be an estimated price for the FETtie switch?


Seems like everybody is away from their computer for the past few weeks.

Since I can't seem to stop warping the springs on my McClicky, I'm drooling over the thought of having an actual MOSFET switch inside of a tailcap.


----------



## Noctis




----------



## VanIsleDSM

Sorry for the long wait! Parts took a while, but are finally here. I've been quite busy with many things lately, but I now have time to build drop-ins, and next week, I'll be moving into a new shop and adding some more tools to my arsenal. I can't wait.

So, the good news is here,

Aluminum drop-ins ready for sale!

$155 is the damage,

For that you get:

***Precision machined aluminum heatsink guaranteed to fit snug in a genuine surefire host with a base thickness (area under LEDs before the driver) of over 7.5mm, over half the thickness of the entire aluminum piece. Standard drop-ins have about a 3mm base.

***Driver with separate channel for each LED, so they all receive the same current, maximizing efficiency and brightness. This is not your typical single cell multi-die parallel drive.

***Driver configurable upon order for different mode groups,
5 mode: Low(200mA) - Med (1280mA) - High (4200mA) - Strobe - SOS
3 mode: Low(200mA) - Med (1280mA) - High (4200mA)
3 mode: Low(400mA) - High (4200mA) - Strobe
2 mode: Low(400mA) - High (4200mA)
1 mode: High (4200mA)

***Pure silver plated beryllium copper ground spring with 24K gold plated contact area

***24K gold plated positive contact

I'm probably forgetting a couple things...

I know a lot of people like a single mode light, but understand that this device is pumping out over 4 Amps, it will get too hot and you will have to turn it off after a few minutes, depending on ambient temp and if/how you are holding the light. I would recommend a 2 mode, unless you are dead set on a single.

Silver plated copper version will be coming along in the next week or so, just need to set up a couple more machines and jigs so it's not so ridiculously painstaking to build them. They do require A LOT of custom work, and will be quite a bit more than the copper cousin, but I know there are some that just want the best, no holds bared. The may only be offered for a limited time, depends how much better I can get at building them with practice, as they take a huge amount of time. 

If you want a copper version, and you are on the "list" that is this thread, do not fret, your position will be held as you wait for the copper version to go into production.

I haven't made the sales thread yet, and I will have to go through this one and make the list of everyone who expressed interest to post there, I may not get it done tonight, but I thought I'd post the good news. I will try though.

I know everyone wants to see.... so here are the pics. Waiting for it to get dark out, and I'll try to get some beam shots.

Aluminum 4.2A QUAD XPG:


----------



## VanIsleDSM

FETie has undergone a slight redesign, to try and increase fitment in all hosts, it will be ditching the retaining ring and screw directly in itself, waiting on some materials arriving tomorrow and they will be ready soon.

Also waiting for a Solarforce host in the mail from lighthound, so I can built the clone conversion kit. I have some copper foil on the way that is the right thickness to fill the extra diameter gap, as long as it's easy to install without tearing and such, which I think it will be, copper is much more malleable than aluminum. That along with the tapered piece to fit the skinnier spring on my drop-in should provide good fitment and near genuine surefire thermal transfer.

So, in the very near future look for the copper version, the FETie, and the clone conversion kit.

In about the month's time, I should have my silver plated copper sleeved heatsink finned host for sale, that will allow for ever better heat transfer, and when used with a copper drop-in, liquid metal can be used instead of arctic silver, increasing the thermal conductance from the drop-in to the host by over 800%.

And of course there is more in the works... I usually like to wait until I get further along on things before I mention them, as no inventor's every idea pans out! ...and I don't want to get anyone's hopes up for no reason.

P.S. Sorry for my poor photography. I'll get a friend to take some nice pics soon.


----------



## bigchelis

Hi,

Please put me down for the 2 MODE version. I will definetely purchase one at least.:wave:


What is the drive current to each LED?
I forgot if you went with 1A or 1.2A each.

Thanks,
bigC


----------



## VanIsleDSM

5 mode: Low(200mA) - Med (1280mA) - High (4200mA) - Strobe - SOS
3 mode: Low(200mA) - Med (1280mA) - High (4200mA)
3 mode: Low(400mA) - High (4200mA) - Strobe
2 mode: Low(400mA) - High (4200mA)
1 mode: High (4200mA)


Just divide by 4 to get the "per LED" current.

Per LED:

5 mode: Low(50mA) - Med (320mA) - High (1050mA) - Strobe - SOS
3 mode: Low(50mA) - Med (320mA) - High (1050mA)
3 mode: Low(100mA) - High (1050mA) - Strobe
2 mode: Low(100mA) - High (1050mA)
1 mode: High (1050mA)


The copper version will be available with 1400mA per LED as an option.

I do have some bad news to report, I forgot to mention it in the first post. My beloved 4000K neutral R4s have a very unusually high Vf across the board, up to [email protected], very strange for an XPG. As a result of this, they don't work well with a single cell linear driver. The warm white and cool white bins I have average [email protected], which gives a long regulated run time.

I'm currently on the search for a different neutral bin with a better Vf.


----------



## Kestrel

I don't know whether to say :twothumbs or or  or


----------



## blackdragonx1186

been following this for some time. put me on the list as well!:twothumbs


----------



## powerup93

Put me on the list for a 2-mode. I currently have a solarforce l2....will this first version be able to fit at all or do I have to wait for the clone version?


----------



## flashfiend

VanIsleDSM said:


> ...
> 
> The copper version will be available with 1400mA per LED as an option.
> 
> ...



Awesome!!! I'm assuming this is with a single Li-Ion cell?

Btw, good design change on the FETtie. Should work easily with the FM 26XXX tailcap.


----------



## brightstarz

is it good or advisable for use in a SF nitrolon body? G2 and G3.


----------



## edek130

I'd like to get one please (what would be the price for the copper version?)
3 mode: Low(200mA) - Med (1280mA) - High (4200mA)
did I understand correctly that you'll make a host as well for this drop-in?


----------



## icaruz

Put me on the list for the silver plated copper heatsink Quad drop in please.


----------



## Noctis

I'll be waiting for the copper & FETtie.

And there goes my next paycheck:devil:.

P.S.
More beamshots please.


----------



## euroken

Fantastic!

Depends on the cost of the copper version, but I'm definitely in for a 3 mode, L-M-H, (maybe one of each Al and Cu?) and a FETtie. Can't wait!


----------



## smokelaw1

One mode, as discussed. No offense, but this isn't going to be my utilitarian "I imight need a low mode" light. I have one of those in my pocket already. And another on my keychain. And probably another in my cargo pocket depending on the day. 

This is going to be my new pocket blaster. Aluminum version is fine with me, as I won't be running it for more than 15 or 30 seconds or so per burst. Can't wait to see one tested in the sphere. 

I'm going to order a host right now. Need a bored 6P with a mcclicky, i think. 

So...I think I've asked before but will a regular AW 18650 will power this bad boy up? I'll probably grab a 1400ma per LED too when they come out.


----------



## don.gwapo

Please, please, please put me on the list. I'll take a 2 mode aluminum version for my solarforce L2M. Thanks a lot.


----------



## arek98

VanIsleDSM, I will wait for 2-mode (400mA-4200mA) cooper version.
What bins of those cool and warm whites you have?


----------



## PolarBearX

Van Isle, which solarforce host did you order. The ID of them vary, and I'm still looking to drop one in an L2P. 

Do those high, black wires interfere with the optics' output at all? 

I'm still very interested, I think I'm going to wait to see your copper/silver version and if you find a suitable neutral xp-g. 

Get one of these to Big C first so we can get some output and runtime info....I'm sure I'd love this version either way, with warms, what to do, what to do....

PBX


----------



## psychbeat

Im on already for the 2 mode a couple pages back
but im going to wait for the copper
unless its wayyyy more expensive.

Id like to be able to run it for 10min
at a time on high...

man these things are gonna be SIIIICK!!
:twothumbs:sick2::twothumbs


----------



## LightJunk

I've been reading this and it's very interesting. I am definitely in.

I would like a silver plated copper version Quad, 1400mA per LED, 2 levels - Low and High please.


----------



## flashfiend

I've expressed interest since page 3 but I didn't see anywhere that I had to express how many modes and which version I want. I'm interested in a silver plated copper version w/ 3-modes and 1.4A per LED (depending on the cost). Thanks. Interested in the FETtie as well, sounds like a serious piece of technology.


----------



## Noctis

Keeping my fingers crossed that the FETtie will fit in my FM 26650 host, since I'll probably use that as the dedicated host for that module. The IMR battery will let me draw 5.6A(1.4A per LED) without problems, and 4000mAh should give me phenomenal runtime while minimizing current sag.


----------



## Raoul_Duke

I have also been following, and I'm interested in the fetti, and a 2 or 3 mode drop in.

Not sure on weather I want copper or not...whats the difference or are we going to have to pick without the test results getting out there before the actual sale.

I hope it fits in an older FM ( Black) C host, I have a plan for squeezing a cell in it.


----------



## Kestrel

Raoul_Duke said:


> I hope it fits in an older FM ( Black) C host, I have a plan for squeezing a cell in it.


I supplied some measurements to the OP with regards to the older FM 'C' bodies back in post # 28, with a reply by VIDSM in the subsequent post. I am very much hoping that the final unit will fit the FM's.

Hmm, which actually just occured to me, since I need to mail VIDSM's prototype drop-in back to him after checking fitment in some of my hosts, I could also mail him my FM 3xC body for fitment & function testing if he might be interested...? That way all the popular hosts should be covered: SureF, SolF, UltraF, & FiveM.

BTW RD, what is your strategy for getting a LiIon into those older slightly narrower hosts (generally regarded to be too thin for boring)? I know that the DX 'C' LiIon will fit, but not sure if I wanted to pursue that option (plus I don't have an FM 1xC anyhow).

But my FM 3xC, with 3x NiMH, should be awesome for this... :naughty:

*Edit: Except, I'm unsure as to if the stock 'clicky' in those older hosts would be rated for this much amperage... :-( It's a different switch than the McClicky that are most often installed in the newer FM 26500/26650 hosts...* I just sent a PM to FM regarding this query and will report back if I hear anything.

*Edit #2: FM says he tested this switch to 5.5 amps with his FM1909 bulb, he considers that the switch is OK for short bursts, but has the risk of shortening the life of the switch on extended runs.*


----------



## Raoul_Duke

IHave an old unprotected ( circuit developed a fault so it was stripped and kapton taped) AW C cell I could use, or I have an odd-ball cell, and with a bit of V light boring, or TBH anodization removal, & a cell re-wrap in thin insulation, and I will be good to go.

I also have to have the tailcap machined out, and to replace the tail switch if I go with a larger cell....I'd like to look at a McClicky, but I'll probably use a 10A 14V Judco cut down clicky...But I belive the switches you talk of were said to be good to around ~ 4A.

thanks for the responce.

Oh and I like neutral XPG's!!!!! & it would be nice if the circuit could cut off at 2.5V falling under load or just above as I think that alot of Li-ion/ IMR users will want to protect their cells.



Kestrel said:


> I supplied some measurements to the OP with regards to the older FM 'C' bodies back in post # 28, with a reply by VIDSM in the subsequent post. I am very much hoping that the final unit will fit the FM's.
> 
> Hmm, which actually just occured to me, since I need to mail VIDSM's prototype drop-in back to him after checking fitment in some of my hosts, I could also mail him my FM 3xC body for fitment & function testing if he might be interested...? That way all the popular hosts should be covered: SureF, SolF, UltraF, & FiveM.
> 
> BTW RD, what is your strategy for getting a LiIon into those older slightly narrower hosts (generally regarded to be too thin for boring)? I know that the DX 'C' LiIon will fit, but not sure if I wanted to pursue that option (plus I don't have an FM 1xC anyhow).
> 
> But my FM 3xC, with 3x NiMH, should be awesome for this... :naughty:
> 
> *Edit: Except, I'm unsure as to if the stock 'clicky' in those older hosts would be rated for this much amperage... :-( It's a different switch than the McClicky that are most often installed in the newer FM 26500/26650 hosts...* I just sent a PM to FM regarding this query and will report back if I hear anything.


----------



## powerup93

Edit: Instead, I'd like a 3-mode. Btw, what is the ETA on when these go on sale officially and start shipping? Looks like I'll have to purchase a fetie as well.


----------



## powerup93

Oh, and where are those beamshots?


----------



## csshih




----------



## 021411

Put me on the list for a copper version. 1 or 2 mode depending on how it is switched.


----------



## Noctis

Kinda wondering if the mode switching can be tweaked so that you need to click twice within 0.5 sec or less to switch modes, as well as an option on whether or not to include mode memory.

I was thinking of making the modes behave like the Surefire E2DL. A "tactical" setup so to speak, at the risk of getting roasted alive for saying it.


----------



## rrt0000

Awesome news! 

I definitely want a 2 mode warm with FETie switch 

Interested in copper version if its not too much more than the alum one.

Planning to use in a Solarforce l2p with IMR 18650.


----------



## Chevy-SS

VanIsleDSM said:


> ........
> 
> ***Driver configurable upon order for different mode groups,
> 5 mode: Low(200mA) - Med (1280mA) - High (4200mA) - Strobe - SOS
> 3 mode: Low(200mA) - Med (1280mA) - High (4200mA)
> 3 mode: Low(400mA) - High (4200mA) - Strobe
> 2 mode: Low(400mA) - High (4200mA)
> 1 mode: High (4200mA)
> 
> .........





Heya Van, can you kindly explain how the UI works? Is there memory? Can I program a default mode? Please explain UI in detail for the technically challenged (like me, heheh).

Thanks!

-


----------



## kodama




----------



## powerup93

I'm sure in time that VanIslDSM will splurge and tell us everything possibly in a separate sale thread - that's obvious 

It may be because I'm a tech spec nerd/junkie that I want to know as much as possible. There are a few questions that I'm curious of that I don't know you will answer in the future.

-What is the optics' fwhm/degrees? What manufacturer are they?
-Is the driver fully regulated boosting the current/voltage towards the end of an 18650's run (though I highly think it's not this type of driver)
-Does the driver strictly work in the range of one li-ion?
-What kind of driver is this, the DX one? Tell us more about it.
-Can we change the modes to another set once we have them or is that done all on your side? Like the 20 mode in 5 sets type of stuff that DX has??
-Though you said that throw will be similar to a carclo 10507 triple xpg, do you have any more specific data such as your measured distance? Will it cover a football field?
-Is there a specific type of wire used? teflon-coated silver plated copper, or a thicker gauge copper wire?
-The leds look to be reflow soldered onto that mcpcb, is that right?
-Are there any runtime data?

-Tell us about your whole adventure when you're all ready. That should be obvious too ehhh 

I was working on a triple xpg multilevel but stopped to find that this is going to be more cost-effective. Though building mine was alot of fun, I would simply not have the tools/time/ability to make something as fantastic as yours.


----------



## ptolemy

i am in either for 2 mode or 3 mode (high, med, lo) whichever simplier to make. i expressed original interest in post #17 

hopw is this meshing with fm 26650 host>?


----------



## bigchelis

bigchelis said:


> Hi,
> 
> Please put me down for the 2 MODE version. I will definetely purchase one at least.:wave:
> 
> 
> What is the drive current to each LED?
> I forgot if you went with 1A or 1.2A each.
> 
> Thanks,
> bigC


 

I want my personal purchase to be the *copper* one please, but for testing purposes send me the other one (aluminum) too and I will return it ASAP.


----------



## VanIsleDSM

I'll try to get all the questions... Sorry for the delay again, I'm moving right now and just about lost my house because of a miscommunication between the mortgage broker and the lawyer, it was terrible! Luckily everything's ok now.

I do need to move my shop, but that'll be done by Thursday. I have compiled a list of everyone who seemed interested, I skipped over some people who posted who I didn't think were interested by the post content, but if I have misjudged and you were interested, just let me know and I'll put you on the list where you belong.

Going to start making the sales thread right now, but I want to try and get all the info in it, so it might take me a while to write up. I want to start getting everyone's preference for LEDs though so I can make another order. I do have some on hand, but only enough for a few.

The copper version will be nearly twice as much as the aluminum. It's very labour intensive, involving hard to machine expensive materials.

Mode switching is done by momentarily turning the light off, and then back on. I believe this is the most basic and familiar way of switching modes, and therefore this is my choice. The driver has mode memory, so it will turn back on in the same mode it was turned off in.

The optic is a khatod optic that I modify to fit. It has a FWHM of 10 degrees with XPEs or Rebels, slightly larger with the larger die of an XPG. 

For comparison, the narrow tripple optic some are familiar with has a FWHM of 18 degrees with XPEs or Rebels.

The driver is a linear driver with 4 separate outputs, one for each LED so they all receive the same current, as opposed to running them all in parallel.

The driver is designed to work with a single Li-Ion battery. I am unfamiliar with NiMH, but I believe they are 1.25V each at full charge. If so 3 of these in series, or even 3 alkies in series will probably work.

Modes are programmed by me, and cannot be changed after construction.

Wire is mil-spec silver plated teflon insulated. Two 24 gauge conductors for + and four 26 gauge conductors for -.

LEDs on the aluminum version are reflowed onto a MCPCB. On the copper version they are clamped down, to ensure the solder layer is as thin as possible, and reflowed directly to the silver plated heatsink with a special process that I had to design and build a machine to complete. Because of the thermal mass of the heatsink, to reflow LEDs to it, it must not only have actively controlled closed loop heating, but cooling also.

I'll check runtime on high and medium soon. But you can estimate it from the 4.2A draw, taking into account that current will drop after battery voltage falls bellow LED [email protected] This is also how you will know that your battery is being depleted. XPGs I have tested are usually in the 3.2-3.3V range @1000mA.

I mentioned it earlier, but I don't think everyone noticed. Unfortunately the R4 flux neutral XPGs that I have, have a ridiculously high Vf for XPGs. 3.8-3.9V is too high to use with a linear driver, you just don't get any regulated runtime. I figured a 4000K R4 was too good to be true. The other bins I have are R5 flux C0 tint, and Q5 flux 7B tint warm white. Both have 3.2-3.3Vf, perfect for a linear driver. I am currently looking for another neutral bin with a normal Vf.

I've got some copper tape coming, and I'm planning to make the solarforce adapter soon. The adapter along with some copper tape around the dropin, will allow it to fit in the solarforce. My main concern has been getting the dropin out for the surefire, but I promise the solarforce stuff will be here shortly. If you have a solarforce, you're high on the list, and you can't wait, you can even just use a washer to catch the spring, as Kestrel did in his pictures with the testing of the dropin I sent him earlier in this thread, and use your own copper tape.

Kestrel's measurements show the FM host to have the same diameter socket as a surefire, so the drop-in should fit well thermally without tape. As for the spring perch, or whether or not the FM is tapered, I do not know. I would love to get myself an FM26650 host, but they all seem to be spoken for.

Beamshots soon, just wanted to have a warm white to show too.


----------



## bigchelis

"The copper version will be nearly twice as much as the aluminum. It's very labour intensive, involving hard to machine expensive materials."


So, the copper drop-in is going to be like $300 dollars


I think aluminum will do for me if that is the case. I thought $30 bucks or so more, but twice the price I know its worth it but not for me at this time.

Sorry to hear about that house issue..those banks and lawyers one in the same


----------



## Noctis

bigchelis said:


> "The copper version will be nearly twice as much as the aluminum. It's very labour intensive, involving hard to machine expensive materials."
> 
> 
> So, the copper drop-in is going to be like $300 dollars
> 
> 
> I think aluminum will do for me if that is the case. I thought $30 bucks or so more, but twice the price I know its worth it but not for me at this time.
> 
> Sorry to hear about that house issue..those banks and lawyers one in the same


I'd be willing to pay the price, provided the FETtie fits in my FM 26650 host. Anymore melted McClickies and that alone would hurt my wallet more than the module.

I'm more interested in knowing if the mode memory could be disabled.

$300 would be worth it for 1,200+ OTF lumens in a pocket sized host. And a solid copper heatsink ought to be capable of managing the heat better than the Moddoo Triple, which is mainly aluminum.


----------



## h22

I think I expressed interest in this, but I figured I would post again just to make sure. 

I am a bit unsure on exactly witch version I would want, if the $300.00 estimate is close to accurate for the copper version I would like a bit more info on the benifits....( i need to re-read the thread to refresh my memory and catch up on the development  )

Sorry to hear about the house trouble.....I hate moving ( would rather take a beating ) let alone have those other problems!

eagerly awaiting the sales thread!
Joe


----------



## don.gwapo

VanIsleDSM said:


> I've got some copper tape coming, and I'm planning to make the solarforce adapter soon. The adapter along with some copper tape around the dropin, will allow it to fit in the solarforce.



Van,

That's a good news for us. I'm gona patiently wait for that for my L2M. Thanks.


----------



## h22

h22 said:


> I think I expressed interest in this, but I figured I would post again just to make sure.
> 
> I am a bit unsure on exactly witch version I would want, if the $300.00 estimate is close to accurate for the copper version I would like a bit more info on the benifits....( i need to re-read the thread to refresh my memory and catch up on the development  )
> 
> Sorry to hear about the house trouble.....I hate moving ( would rather take a beating ) let alone have those other problems!
> 
> eagerly awaiting the sales thread!
> Joe


 
Ok, caught up a bit..... Thinking $300 is a ot of money, but 1400ma per LED is pretty sweet.... 

So... my eagletac T20C2 draws roughly 1050 to 1100 ma at the tail cap and is claimed to have 300OTF lumens ( I am a bit sceptical on this... ) but it is currently my favorate EDC. so i am guessing that the alum. version will be roughly 4 times that... ~1200 lumens. 
I am currently waiting on a SST-50 single 18650 cell that should be around 1000lumen at the LED ( ~750 OTF possibly ? ). while i am sure i will be able to tell the differance between 700-750 and 1200 i sure am leaning twards the wallet busting copper version! may just have to make instalments to lessen the blow to the savings account!

I would be interested in a 2 or 3 mode.

I would love to see more info on the FET you are using, do you have a part # on it?

P.P. is standing buy for the sales thread! 
Great work.


----------



## LightJunk

LightJunk said:


> I've been reading this and it's very interesting. I am definitely in.
> 
> I would like a silver plated copper version Quad, 1400mA per LED, 2 levels - Low and High please.



Van,

Since "The copper version will be nearly twice as much as the aluminum." then the aluminum will do for me with the same spec as above 1400mA per LED, 2 levels - Low and High. 

Just in case, I'm really interested in this drop in.

Thanks.
LightJunk


----------



## arek98

Van

:sigh: I'm still in for cooper version (2-mode 400mA-4200mA), and 2-3 FETies (depending on price).
For the led I would love neutrals but not 3.8Vf. If you can get any neutral R2 or higher and they have low Vf (cutter lists XPGWHT-01-3A0-R3, they would be ok for me assuming the have ~3.3Vf) then I will get them.
By C0 did you mean XPG-WHT-L1-1C0-R5? If this is it then if you can't get neutrals then I will take this.

Thank you :bow:
Arek


----------



## jkilo

I'm all over an aluminum version, Warm tint, and a FET. Just show me the dotted line!

(would prefer neutral, vf issue understood, of course)


----------



## Chevy-SS

I've been posting in this thread almost since day one. I'm definitely in for at least one drop-in, probably the alum version.

Can someone explain why the vf is important?

-


----------



## Sprinkles

...did I miss beamshots somewhere along the way?


----------



## Kestrel

VIDSM, thanks for the info. Sorry to hear about the house difficulties, I definitely understand taking care of home first, these are only _flashlights_ we're talking about here LOL. :banned:

Very much looking forward to the final product, I understand that making good stuff takes time.


----------



## VanIsleDSM

I suppose I shouldn't have used the phrase "twice as much", though I did add "nearly" before it.

The copper version will probably be about $270. $30 more than the aluminum wouldn't even cover the cost of the copper and silver.

LED Vf is important with a linear driver because the battery needs to have a higher voltage than the LED for it to receive full current.


----------



## h22

VanIsleDSM said:


> I suppose I shouldn't have used the phrase "twice as much", though I did add "nearly" before it.
> 
> The copper version will probably be about $270. $30 more than the aluminum wouldn't even cover the cost of the copper and silver.
> 
> LED Vf is important with a linear driver because the battery needs to have a higher voltage than the LED for it to receive full current.


 
If I read the spec. sheet correctly, at 1.4 amps each LED will need 3.5v..... that is asking a lot from a single cell @ 4+ amps!

just have to have the copper one!


----------



## VanIsleDSM

Copper will be available at 1050mA per LED as well. You'll probably want to use an IMR18650 @ 1400mA per LED, but I'm sure the high quality LiCo cells will work too. The 26650 hosts will also work well to support the high current.


----------



## ptolemy

I will be in for aluminium 3 mode to fit in FM 26650 host running off Batteryspace cells.

i am not sure which bins you have, but i like similar to sstp50, 5700k...cream color  or anything closest to that.


----------



## psychbeat

man Im SOOO stoked on this module-
cant wait to get one!!

I think Ill just go for the aluminum [email protected] 1000ma
2 mode.

if the outdoor white continue to have problems then
Id take an R3 or R2 warm. heck Ill even take an
R5 cool at this point!

REALLY COOL WORK:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:


----------



## icaruz

Hey Van,
Will you be offering copper without silver plating? Wonder how much that will cost. Hopefully less than $200.


----------



## Noctis

icaruz said:


> Hey Van,
> Will you be offering copper without silver plating? Wonder how much that will cost. Hopefully less than $200.


Not a chance.

Pound for pound, copper is more expensive than aluminum, and since the copper module weighs more than the aluminum due to higher density, it's just common sense that it would cost MUCH more.

And from what's been said earlier in the thread, pure copper is notoriously difficult to machine, which also contributes to the cost.

With all that said, it's uncharacteristically optimistic for anyone to expect the cost of the copper module to be a single penny less than $250.


----------



## French_Candle

Hello VanIsleDSM
please put me on the reservation list for a aluminium quad XP-G drop-in
I will use it on my surefire 6P
thank you


----------



## icaruz

Well Noctis i was asking the OP..if you don't mind. but thanks anyway for your input. i ask because my Moddoo triple was about the same price as this aluminum version.


----------



## Noctis

icaruz said:


> Well Noctis i was asking the OP..if you don't mind. but thanks anyway for your input. i ask because my Moddoo triple was about the same price as this aluminum version.


The Moddoo Triple is 3 emitters on a copper plate, the heatsink itself is aluminum. The bulk of it is aluminum.
Another little caveat is that the Moddoo Triple is direct driven whereas this beauty is regulated with a driver that delivers the same current to all 4 emitters.

It really only matters with the 1.4A per emitter module. If you were to drive the Moddoo triple to 4.2A, the different Vf of the emitters would lead to one being driven at 1.4A, one at 1.2A, and the other at 1.6A. The result being that one of the emitters will likely die long before the other two.

I'm just skeptical that passing out on the silver plating would drop the price by $50, since it's silver plating and not a solid silver heatsink(but there's an idea:devil.

I don't want to sound like a ****, but it sounds like you're expecting a Ferrari for the price of a Scion by skipping the paint job.


----------



## icaruz

Well Noctiz please don't hijack the thread..the question was intended to the OP. . I do understand about the difference between the direct drive and the regulated one here, no harm in asking him right.. because i am a potential buyer. If you think you sound like a **** then so be it..:shrug:. pls just let the OP answer my initial question this time okay..


----------



## LightJunk

icaruz said:


> Well Noctiz please don't hijack the thread..the question was intended to the OP. . I do understand about the difference between the direct drive and the regulated one here, no harm in asking him right.. because i am a potential buyer. If you think you sound like a **** then so be it..:shrug:. pls just let the OP answer my initial question this time okay..



+1


----------



## French_Candle

a 2 mode drop in please.


----------



## LightJaguar

I hope that I was one of those OPs that you noticed that expressed interest on your drop in. I'm very interested in the aluminum version and I have a Surefire C2 ready for it. lovecpf


----------



## h22

ptolemy said:


> I will be in for aluminium 3 mode to fit in FM 26650 host running off Batteryspace cells.
> 
> i am not sure which bins you have, but i like similar to sstp50, 5700k...cream color  or anything closest to that.


 
The FM 26650 hoast sounds like a good idea, where would i find one? ( bit of a newb.....:thinking: )


----------



## LightJunk

h22 said:


> The FM 26650 hoast sounds like a good idea, where would i find one? ( bit of a newb.....:thinking: )



*Here*.


----------



## Noctis

h22 said:


> The FM 26650 hoast sounds like a good idea, where would i find one? ( bit of a newb.....:thinking: )


It sounded like a good idea, but I'm met with two problems:
1) I'm not sure how to remove the adaptor in the tailcap so I can swap out the McClicky with the FETtie. I'm using enough pressure with my pliers to dent the aluminum but the thing simply refuses to budge(I'm sure twisting it left is supposed to loosen it).
2) The tailcap alone takes the light out of the "pocket size" category, it's literally thicker than the bezel. Kinda takes the point out of having a D26 head.

I'm not sure what the revised FETtie will be like, but I imagine that it won't be "one size fits all" and that you'd need one version for each host.

With that said, it sounds like this would be better for my 6P host, which kinda takes out the option for 1400mAh per LED for me. An IMR 18650 cell would have roughly 15 minutes of runtime on high, plus the current will sag quickly. So the Li-Co 2600mAh cell is really the only option.

And yet, I don't feel as optimistic about drawing a 5.6A current from the battery. If my "experience" has proven anything, it's that taking things beyond their specs is a terrible idea that will come back to bite you in the ***. Sure it's fun for a short while, but that dome has been coming loose off my SST-90(it's not completely off) because I've been driving it so hard without proper heatsinking.

And deliberately overdischarging a *lithium* cell is just...it's just awful.


----------



## VanIsleDSM

You're on the list Jaguar.

Unfortunately it is the cost of the copper, and all the extra time put in that makes up the extra cost. When 101 copper is $83 online per foot, before shipping, and aluminum is about $3 for the same piece, you can start to understand why the copper one is so much more.

I ordered myself an FM26650. I thought they were all gone, thanks for the link! I'll let you all know how the FETtie fits as soon as I receive mine, though I do need to get 26650, I imagine an 18650 will suffice for testing.


----------



## Noctis

Could you kick down the current draw to 1300mAh per LED? That ought to give a perfect 5.2A draw, which would be within spec of the 2600mAh cell discharge range.

Not sure if the drivers can be set for that or if you need entirely new drivers.


----------



## Kestrel

Noctis said:


> [...] it sounds like this would be better for my 6P host, which kinda takes out the option for 1400mAh per LED for me. An IMR 18650 cell would have roughly 15 minutes of runtime on high, plus the current will sag quickly. So the Li-Co 2600mAh cell is really the only option.


So I'm guessing you have no use of a 'medium' mode then? ~600+ lumens for something like ~2 hours? Sounds like 18650's (either LiCo or IMR) are a great option IMO. And we'll still get the ultimate maximum output possible in a SF 6P @ 1400 mA for when we need it. :huh:


Noctis said:


> Could you kick down the current draw to 1300mAh per LED? That ought to give a perfect 5.2A draw, which would be within spec of the 2600mAh cell discharge range.


Assuming that attempting a 4x 1400 mA draw will result in 5.6 amps at the tailcap (which may or may not be the case, any contact resistance in your configuration and it will come down some), that's still 2.15C, just barely out of spec & a hair over the rated maximum of 2C for the AW 2600 mAh. If a cell was ran hard at 2C for its entire life, we're looking at perhaps ~50 usable cycles IIRC (based on what I recall of postings by SilverFox.) So if this usage at maximum use is all that is planned, maybe the cell life will be 90-95% of that, ~45+ cycles perhaps?? Just a guess, but difficult to ascertain any real-world difference in cell lifetime IMO.

In addition, we can expect cells of greater capacity in the future. When we get a high-quality 2800+ mAh 18650 LiCo (in fact, I gather that there are already cells of this type), we're set.

1050 or 1400 mA per emitter. Sounds like two great choices to me - an excellent practical configuration and an ultimate configuration.

Plus we can get an extremely-useful medium mode - which is what I'm planning to use when I carry my SF 6P on my 1-2 hour walks. 600+ lumens for ~2 hours excites me about as much as 1700+ lumens for 20-25 minutes - *now* we're talking about real-world usefulness. :huh:


----------



## psychbeat

oooh yeah thats a good idea-
I was thinking that the 1000ma would be the
max for the 18650 2600mah lico.

1300 would be pretty dope.


----------



## Noctis

Kestrel said:


> So I'm guessing you have no use of a 'medium' mode then? ~600+ lumens for something like ~2 hours? Sounds like 18650's (either LiCo or IMR) are a great option IMO. And we'll still get the ultimate maximum output possible in a SF 6P @ 1400 mA for when we need it. :huh:


Probably not. For a wall of light, I would always go for the highest possible output. For anything less, I'll probably reach for my SST-50 or M61 for that task.

I'll still have a use for the low output for blackouts, but there's hardly a need for anything higher in that situation.



> Assuming that attempting a 4x 1400 mA draw will result in 5.6 amps at the tailcap (which may or may not be the case, any contact resistance in your configuration and it will come down some), that's still 2.15C, just barely out of spec & a hair over the rated maximum of 2C for the AW 2600 mAh. If a cell was ran hard at 2C for its entire life, we're looking at perhaps ~50 usable cycles IIRC (based on what I recall of postings by SilverFox.) So if this usage at maximum use is all that is planned, maybe the cell life will be 90-95% of that, ~45+ cycles perhaps?? Just a guess, but difficult to ascertain any real-world difference in cell lifetime IMO.


I'm more concerned about the rumored lithium cell explosions. Granted I'm not sure how badly you would have to abuse the cell to have that happen, but the thought of having something explode with the force of a grenade while it's still in my hand keeps me up at night.



> In addition, we can expect cells of greater capacity in the future. When we get a high-quality 2800+ mAh 18650 LiCo (in fact, I gather that there are already cells of this type), we're set.


Is that in the near future or are we talking about a few more years?



> 1050 or 1400 mA per emitter. Sounds like two great choices to me - an excellent practical configuration and an ultimate configuration.
> 
> Plus we can get an extremely-useful medium mode - which is what I'm planning to use when I carry my SF 6P on my 1-2 hour walks. 600+ lumens for ~2 hours excites me about as much as 1700+ lumens for 20-25 minutes - *now* we're talking about real-world usefulness. :huh:


With the 1400mAh version, I'm a little concerned about current sag. Just a little bit though.

When direct driving an SST-90 with a small wire spring mod on the module, I got a draw of 4.5A which dropped down to 3.5A using an AW 2600mAh cell.

Though I suppose if resistance is low enough that issue is a moot point.


----------



## Kestrel

Lots to talk about there but I don't really want to go further OT from VI's cool stuff, sorry - just wanted to post with another perspective, that's all. 


VanIsleDSM said:


> I ordered myself an FM26650. I thought they were all gone, thanks for the link! I'll let you all know how the FETtie fits as soon as I receive mine, though I do need to get 26650, I imagine an 18650 will suffice for testing.


Cool, I actually brought in my FM "C" body in today to take some more dimensional measurements of the head area to post direct comparisons to the SF 6P measurements I posted way back. However, you actually having an FM host is way better - amazing popularity of those units; as of right now, FM has sold *200* of the 26500/26650 hosts. :huh:


----------



## bullettproof

Put me on the list as well I want one.


----------



## ptolemy

i was thinking like: if brightness levels are programmable, then we can have it start at lowest like: 200ma, then 1000ma, and turbo mode 1400ma


----------



## blackdragonx1186

VanIsleDSM said:


> You're on the list Jaguar.
> 
> 
> I ordered myself an FM26650. I thought they were all gone, thanks for the link! I'll let you all know how the FETtie fits as soon as I receive mine, though I do need to get 26650, I imagine an 18650 will suffice for testing.



Do you think you could re-post the link for me? 

Also, I'm interested in the 3 mode hi-med-low module.


----------



## powerup93

VanIsleDSM,

It hasn't been asked yet and it may be because thats as low as you can get it but can you possibly get the quad to an even lower low for the 3mode? In my opinion, a 3 mode should be set at a super low under 5ish lumens and the medium being some 80 lumens and finally a superrrrr high "burst". therefore, the l9ow would be suited to dark night tqsks and the medium used the most with the obligatory super high.


----------



## arek98

First, sorry for dots in tables but spaces are always compacted to single one (and other blank characters I tried):shrug:

I made some computations that may help in deciding what levels to get.

Assuming emitter lumens (from Cree spec)

Q3....Q4...Q5...R2...R3...R4...R5
93.9..100..107..114..122..130..139

And Vf, flux charts (I made table by eye so it is an approximation)

I.[mA]..Vf.[V]...flux.(%)
.100.....2.75......30
.200.....2.86......59
.300.....2.95......85
.350.....3.00.....100
.400.....3.05.....115
.500.....3.10.....142
.600.....3.15.....162
.700.....3.20.....180
.800.....3.27.....205
.900.....3.32.....227
1000.....3.37.....250
1100.....3.41.....265
1200.....3.44.....280
1300.....3.47.....300
1400.....3.50.....320
1500.....3.53.....337

I assumed 3.7V battery voltage for runtime calculation. Li-Ion right of charger has 4.2V but it will sag under load and it will drop discharging as well. I also didn’t include any efficiency losses of driver.

EDIT: See updated table in post *285*


----------



## Kestrel

Thanks arek98, I had been wanting to put those calcs together for my own curiosity, you saved me the trouble. :thumbsup:

Edit: What I don't trust is a couple of those projected runtime numbers though, the capacity of the 2600 mAh AW 18650 will be considerably lower than the nominal '2600' rating at the highest drain rates. For example, HKJ's test data shows that cell delivering:

2500 mAh @ 0.3 amps
2480 mAh @ 1.0 amps
2400 mAh @ 3.0 amps
So that cell can probably deliver only ~*2200-2250* mAh @ 5.5 amps.

One more idea, could you insert entries for 65/260 and 425/1700 mA into that last chart as well? If my calcs are correct, that should correspond to the 'low' and 'medium' settings on the 3-mode 4x1400 unit.

Edit #2: Hmm, the other runtime figures (i.e the lowest levels) for the AW 2600 in your table don't look correct either, how are you getting ~18 hrs for the 50/200 ?


----------



## arek98

Added 65mA and 425mA

EDIT: See updated table in post *285*

I agree this is rough estimation. It does not include any drop in battery capacity with increase of draw current. Also I assumed 3.7V, when in reality it will be falling all the time.
Assuming that IMR4000 (from batteryspace) is 4000mAh which is 14.8Wh, AW IMR18650 is 1600mAh – 5.92Wh, 2200mAh – 8.14Wh, 2600mAh – 9.62Wh (again for simplicity assuming 3.7V).
These are not exact values, but I think as it should give a general idea about lumens on different current levels in comparison to others.

Kestrel, what figures do you think are incorrect?
Arek


----------



## Kestrel

arek98 said:


> Added 65mA and 425mA


Cool, perfect, thank you. 

That chart should really help folks in deciding what they want - it makes it easy to compare the various outputs and estimated runtimes of the different modes & configurations.


arek98 said:


> I agree this is rough estimation. It does not include any drop in battery capacity with increase of draw current. Also I assumed 3.7V, when in reality it will be falling all the time. [...] Kestrel, what figures do you think are incorrect?
> Arek


Ah, OK, my calcs were on the mA draw rather than on Watts (as you did) - the difference between them being that the 3.7v is decreasing during the run (as you just mentioned), effectively decreasing the W-H of the cells. Using mAh as the basis seems to make for somewhat shorter runtime numbers compared to your figures, but it's really no biggie - we're superimposing multiple layers of theoretical at this point. :huh: (What we don't know is how well the driver responds to the decreasing cell voltage or, for that matter, the driver efficiency.) :shrug:

Here's HKJ's graph of the AW 2600's BTW:


HKJ said:


> On the graph, the black trace is 0.3A, red is 1A and green is 3A discharge current.


So even for a one amp draw, the cell will be below ~3.7v for ~half of the runtime. The voltage curve for a 5.5 amp draw, that will be brutal. :naughty:

VI has ordered both AW 18650 cells (LiCo & IMR, LOL ), so we should hopefully get actual runtimes once he gets a chance to test each of them out.

Good stuff! :thumbsup:


----------



## arek98

Thank you Kestrel for kind words.

I looked at HKJ graphs and cmacclel graph for IMR4000 (26650 from batteryspace).

Below is table with average voltage and measured capacity depending on discharge current (approximated reading by eye from graphs). Average V times capacity will give us estimation of Wh available from battery at given discharge current. 

Original table is updated with assumption that battery has Wh for closest lower current in first table (e.g., it assumes that Wh for AW2600mAh @ 1700mA are 8.70).
I also assumed that we are losing 10% on conversion (driver and other loses).

I think this is best I can do without someone who actually knows about this stuff going into scientific methods :thinking:.

Arek


----------



## powerup93

Hey Van, I dont want to annoy you b/c your busy, but I thought of a qstn that I dont see answered or posted too often. I dont know if you will even post this in your official info thread, but will your driver have a low battery warning?


----------



## tolkaze

I think i put an interest in earlier, but just in case, I wanna say
please put me on the reservation list for a aluminium quad XP-G drop-in, maybe could go the copper one instead... will sell some lights if and when I make the list  

Cheers


----------



## gmanpilot

I am interested in your aluminum model as well please>


----------



## Noctis

Alright, I believe I saved up enough money for the copper module and 2 FETties.

I assume I'll need two versions, one for the Surefire 6P tailcap and one for the FM 26650 tailcap.

Now I just hope I'll see the sales thread before I burn my money on more tritium:devil:.


----------



## scalez

I hereby confirm my interest on an aluminium module.
Please put me on the list for one.

Thanks.


----------



## Noctis




----------



## powerup93

yeah, i'm waiting as patiently as i can for a post from vanisledsm, but i can imagine that he's doing a lot of work setting uphis new shop.  im anxiously waiting for that post saying, "ok guys, im making them now and they'll be out within a week".


----------



## arek98

VanIsleDSM

Can you tell us which MOSFET you using for switch?
Do you need particular package? 

I was looking at MOSFET's few days ago and found couple of nice ones (they are in $2-3 a piece range though, available @ Mouser).

NXP PH3120L and Infineon BSC019N02KS G

Infineon is rated 2.5V fully turned on but package is harder to solder by hand (if this is important).
NXP is very close to that as well. Both will have Rds(on) in 3-4 mΩ range

Thank you
Arek


----------



## Noctis

Any word on these?

I feel like my head might explode if I don't spend an atrocious amount of money on something cool before July 4th.


----------



## purelite

Please put me on the list:huh:

Copper 2 mode


----------



## Noctis




----------



## dtb1

Please put me on list for aluminum version.
Thanks


----------



## French_Candle

any news? when can we buy this fantastic drop in ?


----------



## Noctis

Hmm, no legal troubles I hope?


----------



## euroken

hope this project is still alive!


----------



## don.gwapo

Hope this project still going to make it into reality! :sigh:.


----------



## euroken

Ditto. But also hope that all is okay with Vanisledsm.


----------



## one2tim

his profile statistics says last online 4 days ago.....why no update? makes no sence


----------



## HarryN

Doing builds like this are remarkably expensive to fund and take a huge effort. Sometimes life has distractions (family / work / etc), as well as the usually technical / parts availability challenges that come up with projects that push the edge like this.

I am actually quite impressed at the overall project progress.


----------



## hron61

I hereby confirm my interest for a copper preferably one mode module. if not a one mode, then ill take whatever is available.
Please put me on the list for one.
thanks. hron61


----------



## VanIsleDSM

My large apologies for the wait.

I just moved into a house, and there was wayyyyy more to do than expected. Damn real estate agents. I had to get a suite ready downstairs to be able to make my mortgage payments and such, I really just had no time at all, and I felt as though I was starting to lead people on, so I didn't want to post back without something substantial.

I have had some time again in the last couple of weeks. The FETtie has been the target lately. After testing my drop-in with various other switches, I realized how poorly they perform, and how vital the FETtie is.

Even with a new battery and a standard cheapo switch, there was so much voltage drop I wasn't getting full brightness. Forward clickies handle the current better, but they still have quite a bit of resistance.

The FETtie was a large challenge, the space in the surefire tailcap is tiny! I had to fit a switch, a circuit board, a huge spring, electrical components, and a coin battery. I went through 15 different PCB revisions to get everything the way I wanted it, and finally the FETtie is complete! This is the final version, ready to go. There is a larger gap on the tailcap with this switch, there's just nothing that can be done. If you compare the length of the threads on the surefire to a clone, you will see why, the surefire threads are much longer.

Since the clicky switch in the FETtie carries only nano amps to turn on the FET, it will have a much higher than normal reliability, and should last for many click cycles, it is however, easily replaceable. The FETtie also contains a lithium coin battery, but again, only nano amps are drawn from the cell, so it will basically last it's shelf life, which is around 10 years. When the clicky is removed, the coin battery is also easily replaced. If you're like me, you'll probably want to check the voltage on the coin cell anyway, which you can do with a multimeter, without having to disassemble any of the switch.

12A continuous @ 0.0043 R
18 gauge beryllium copper spring, plated in pure silver for conductivity.
24K gold plated contacts
Panasonic 3V 1216 Lithium coin cell included

Only fits surefire tailcap, I couldn't make it universal, it's just too different. With a spacer between the outer ring of the switch, and the bottom of the body threads of a solarforce, it will work, though with another contact point you do negate the effects of a low resistance switch somewhat. I will be releasing a version for the clones soon though, with a spacer soldered on, and gold plated on it's contact. Also an FM 26500/26650 switch coming out, another slight modification.

I just need to figure out the shipping and packing, and these FETties will be available for purcahse this week.

I'm back into production on the Drop-ins now that the switch has been solved. Aluminum only for a while, and then I'll get into the copper once I had the aluminum ones going and established, I don't want to bite off more than I can chew! 

It's so easy (comparatively) to make one or two for myself, but when I start thinking about building them in any fashion that resembles efficiency by hand, I have to get quite creative with jigs and such.


----------



## euroken

Woohoo! We're back on!

PM sent regarding te drop in sometime ago. Please let me know if you got it or of you want me to send it to you again.

I'm also in for two FETtie please!

Welcome back and glad the move is complete.


----------



## ptolemy

welcome back.

you mentioned that it's only for surefire z series tailcaps? no chance for fm 26650 body + tailcap? it's larger than surefire z series,so fit wouldn't be an issue?


----------



## VanIsleDSM

It will fit, bit it won't make electrical contact. Same problem with the clones.

The clones threads are too short, needs a spacer to make contact, with the FM, the threads on the body have a larger diameter, so they completely miss the contact area on the switch.

You could probably figure something out using washers and such, but the resistance is an issue with these currents at lower voltages, any voltage drop is substantial, and adding more contact points isn't good.

I mentioned that I will supply a remedy for both situations, fitment won't be universal, there will be a switch for the clones, a switch the the FM 26500/26650, and this one, the original, designed specifically for the Z59 tailcap: 

http://www.surefire.com/Click-On-Lock-out-Tailcap-Z59

Though I'm sure it will fit many other surefire tailcaps.


----------



## don.gwapo

Yes, this is what were waiting for. Glad its all sorted out on your house move.

But it's still a long way for us L2, L2M, L2P users but it will gonna be worth the wait. 

But we can still get the drop-in and the FETtie later right?

List me for a 2 mode aluminum version. Thanks.


----------



## ptolemy

VanIsleDSM said:


> It will fit, bit it won't make electrical contact. Same problem with the clones.
> 
> The clones threads are too short, needs a spacer to make contact, with the FM, the threads on the body have a larger diameter, so they completely miss the contact area on the switch.
> 
> You could probably figure something out using washers and such, but the resistance is an issue with these currents at lower voltages, any voltage drop is substantial, and adding more contact points isn't good.
> 
> I mentioned that I will supply a remedy for both situations, fitment won't be universal, there will be a switch for the clones, a switch the the FM 26500/26650, and this one, the original, designed specifically for the Z59 tailcap:
> 
> http://www.surefire.com/Click-On-Lock-out-Tailcap-Z59
> 
> Though I'm sure it will fit many other surefire tailcaps.


 
then put me first in line for the fm 26650 mod 
let me know whats needed to be done...ie: tailcap sent to you...


----------



## dannyk

Hi, I'm in for a 2 mode aluminium, bored out sf 6p. Exciting stuff! Thanks vanisledsm!

Edit: and a fettie please!


----------



## Bimmerboy

VanIsleDSM said:


> a coin battery.


So THAT was the trick! Knowing only enough to be considered an electronic idiot, I was wondering how a gate was going to be controlled without both +/-.

Answer?... it's not. Very cool! :rock:

1216 is a small freakin' battery, but if it works for at least few years...

Is it user replaceable?


----------



## TSWrench

Please put me down for two of the FM 26650 FETtie mods. If you still need a Fivemega 26650 tailcap, I can provide one. 

Hopefully, I'm on the list for the drop-in (Post #146) - aluminum R4 Flux 4250K 5B1 Tint 5-mode.


----------



## VanIsleDSM

Building FETtie stock, just about done the FM and clone version.

Went down to the post office to figure out some shipping. Looks like $8.50 for airmail to USA, $11.50 internationally, and the ridiculous part, $14 within Canada? No small packet something or other, the lady didn't make much sense.

I'll look into a courier for shipment within Canada, but the other prices seem reasonable to me.

The coin battery is the trick, but that was the easy part of the trick, cramming the coin battery, along with a PCB board and some electronics parts, and a clickie that used to do the job on it's own, in there, was the real trick.

The battery is easily replaceable, you just pop out the clickie switch, and you can then change it, but as I said, you shouldn't need to for a long, long time, many years.


----------



## don.gwapo

Wooooohooooo. Yes, it's finally done. :twothumbs:thumbsup:.


----------



## Shurock

Hi:

If the P60 drop in will work in a Z3, I would like to be placed on the list. If the fettie will work on a Z3 and if I can get a drop in, I would like a fettie as well.

Thanks!


----------



## nfetterly

Please put me on the list for a fettie


----------



## kellyglanzer

I'm in Kamloops and will be on the island in a couple weeks. Can I pick mine up? :twothumbs

Are these going to only be quad now or are the Five LED version still an option?

Im in for one even two. i would like one to run im my Oveready bored 6P with 18650 and one to run in my FM 26650.

Let me know when I can send money. Should I PM you or is this good enough?


cheers

Kelly




VanIsleDSM said:


> Building FETtie stock, just about done the FM and clone version.
> 
> Went down to the post office to figure out some shipping. Looks like $8.50 for airmail to USA, $11.50 internationally, and the ridiculous part, $14 within Canada? No small packet something or other, the lady didn't make much sense.
> 
> I'll look into a courier for shipment within Canada, but the other prices seem reasonable to me.
> 
> The coin battery is the trick, but that was the easy part of the trick, cramming the coin battery, along with a PCB board and some electronics parts, and a clickie that used to do the job on it's own, in there, was the real trick.
> 
> The battery is easily replaceable, you just pop out the clickie switch, and you can then change it, but as I said, you shouldn't need to for a long, long time, many years.


----------



## VanIsleDSM

Silver plated copper drop-in prototype available. It may be the only one ever...

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/3504406#post3504406

PMing people now on the top of the list to take their order for aluminum drop-ins. If you're on it, I'll make it to you soon, and I'll add those who have expressed interest since I made the list soon.

Kestrel
PolarBearX
dirtech 
BigHonu
ptolemy
icaruz
arek98
Bimmerboy
bshanahan14rulz
J-FRAME
Noctis
LightJaguar
one2tim
Chrontius
kodama
smokelaw1
Chevy-SS
netprince
mvyrmnd
flashfiend
euroken
don.gwapo 
Davey
h22
thaflash_la
edelbrock 
daimleramg
TomInOregon
TSWrench
Gryffin
merdock69
Chrontius
gostanova
EvilPaul2112
Tedfs
pee10755
021411
nfetterly
bullettproof 
yalskey
ftumch33
psychbeat
RedfishBluefish
rrt0000
bigchelis
blackdragonx1186
powerup93
edek130
icaruz
LightJunk
Raoul_Duke


----------



## Shurock

If I can get in, 3 mode for me please.


----------



## hansi78

is it still possible to place me on the list ?
3 mode pls 1660 Raw lumen minimum output 5.6A driver


----------



## powerup93

Good to see you back in action VI. Soo.....do you have any beamshots up?


----------



## VanIsleDSM

I have some good news.

I suppose even with all of my dilligence with my bench rig, I could still not get near as low as a contact resistance as I can with an actual flashlight. Makes sense with all of the gold plated contacts and such.

This leads me to believe that these neutral R4 LEDs don't have as ridiculously high of a voltage as I had originally thought. I will do some more testing in light to see how they compare to the other bins to eliminate any other factors from now on.

Here are my observations with the 5.6A copper prototype.

AW 18650 2600mAh - Started out at 4.6A and dropped fairly quickly. The cell can't hold voltage very well at all at this discharge.

AW IMR 18650 1600mAh - Started out at 5.6A and held quite strong. I had to suspend the test a couple of times because the light got too hot. When the cell had a standing voltage of 3.7V, it was still able to deliver 4.6A.

MNKE IMR26650 4000mAh - Started out at 5.6A and held very strong. I had to suspend the test multiple times because the light got too hot. A larger head with more fins than the surefire head on this FM body would be nice. With a standing voltage of 3.7V, it was still able to deliver 5A!

Based on these results, I no longer recommend that this protype be run on 4XNiMh. The linear regulators will burn too much voltage and may overheat. IMR cells do a fine job.


----------



## donn_

Excellent! I'll run it in an old-style finned M2 bezel on an FM 1x26650 body.

What sort of switch did you use in the IMR26650 test?


----------



## VanIsleDSM

No switch was used. A thick, short piece of wire with many thin strands, for better contact. I then measuresed the current with a clamp meter around the wire.

I tried it briefly with a McClicky, but I don't imagine it would last to long. The spring is thin spring steel, a lot of resistance there. I've heard of people burning them around 6A so I didn't push it.

I have completed the FETtie switch for the 6P and the LP2. For the rest of the day I'll focus on finishing up the design quirks to get it to work in an FM26650 host. Though I do not know if the old style is different from the new? When I am done I will post some pictures of how it fits into the tailcap. The FETtie only has 0.0043 resistance in the MOSFET, and the contact resistance should be lower than the wire, as there is more surface area, and it is gold plated. There will be no drop at all in current using a FETtie switch compared to the wire, it will be more efficient than the wire.


----------



## donn_

AFAIK, there is only one style of cap for the FM 26650 and 26500 C-head hosts.

Pardon the lousy photos:


----------



## VanIsleDSM

That's good news then. I thought I had seen somewhere back in this thread, someone mentioning that there was an older style 26650 host.

The one you have pictured there is exactly the same as mine.

I am etching PCBs for the FM FETties right now.


----------



## Kestrel

VanIsleDSM said:


> That's good news then. I thought I had seen somewhere back in this thread, someone mentioning that there was an older style 26650 host.


There was the older tailcap for the similar FM xC hosts, which have a different clicky - they weren't compatible with the newer & more popular FM 26500/26650 hosts (which take the McClicky and your switch above). The thing is that these older hosts didn't have enough of an ID to take the new IMR cells - they were good platforms for lower-draw LED configurations with NiMH C's, for example.


----------



## VanIsleDSM

FETtie for the FM xC host is finished and working.

Now i just need to make a few.


----------



## h22

donn_ said:


> Excellent! I'll run it in an old-style finned M2 bezel on an FM 1x26650 body.
> 
> What sort of switch did you use in the IMR26650 test?



I would love to know were i could buy these two parts! This is the set up that makes the most sense to me, with the 26650 providing more current and runtime with the draw back of a slightly larger diameter body. A single 1600ma 18650 looks like the next best, but total runtime has got to be quite low with such a small reserve on the battery.


----------



## donn_

FiveMega still has a few of the hosts available here. 26500 should also work, with an IMR 26500 cell.

The old-style M2 bezel is more difficult to source. The last time I ordered them from Surefire, I got one old-style and one new-style. My other old-style copies have come from the MarketPlace.


----------



## VanIsleDSM

First couple of completed drop-ins have been sent out, and should be arriving early next week.

I'm hard at work building more drop-ins for CPFers, I would love to get some beamshots up though, but I don't really have a lot of other lights to compare to either, only others I've made.

Maybe if everyone asks donn and ptolemy nicely they'll put some up.


----------



## smokelaw1

Couple of questions...what does the fettie do? Also, would the 4k r4 be brighter (Real lumens , not apparent) than the 5k r3, despite the warmer temp? Thanks to all.

OK, got my answers, I'll be using the zero-res tailcap, no need for fettie, and the brighter 4K....can't wait.


----------



## VanIsleDSM

Here are some pictures of the final product. More to come, along with a proper desctription with all specifications of the FETtie and the P60 Quad. I'm just trying to get through the reserve list right now. I want everyone who has been waiting, and is still interested, to get their hands on one of these, it's about time!

If you're on the list I posted a page or two back, I'll get to you soon. After that, it's a free for all.


----------



## Hammer Train

Please include me on the list for at least one of these, I originally posted my interest on 1st September in the sales thread (oops!)

THanks!


----------



## VanIsleDSM

I advise installing the drop-in like so: (remove tailcap) The drop-in will create an air tight seal, if you have a tailcap on, especially with a cell in the way, it is much more difficult to install the dropin.











With some type of bubblewrap, or plastic wrap over some paper towel. Also, make sure to use some artic silver 5, or another high quality thermal grease between the drop-in and the host. Some on the threads between the body and the head helps too.

Since this was designed for the Surefire 6P, it can be slightly more finicky to get into the FM host, but it will fit. 

After the drop-in is pressed in, the friction, along with the thermal grease, should keep it in place as you screw down the head.


There is a slight issue with the first two FM FETties that were sent out. They work just fine, the problem comes when screwing on the tailcap, it seems that they can bind sideways.

I am making some revised versions now, that thread into the tailcap instead of dropping in. I may revise all of them like this, though I've only observed the problem with the FM version, because of how shallow the area for the switch it, there's a lot more room for play.

For now, if you screw on the tailcap like so, it should alleviate the problem.






Just let the cell rest on the spring vertically as you screw it together. This will keep the switch seated properly.

I'll send out some revised versions as soon as I've completed them.


----------



## ptolemy

Thanks for the details. Mine has cleared customs, so hopefully will be here on tuesday


----------



## TSWrench

I'm a little confused as to how the drop-ins and FETties are being purchased... Are you contacting people on the list as these items become available, or are purchases handled some other way?

Thank you.


----------



## donn_

It would have been nice to have a little more notice about the need for thermal grease. I don't have any.

What temperature range does it need to have?


----------



## Hammer Train

Hammer Train said:


> Please include me on the list for at least one of these, I originally posted my interest on 1st September in the sales thread (oops!)
> 
> THanks!


----------



## ptolemy

donn_ said:


> It would have been nice to have a little more notice about the need for thermal grease. I don't have any.
> 
> What temperature range does it need to have?


 he pmed me about it last week, i also had to order it.

but i am a little concerned about if we can get it out later on....hehe


----------



## VanIsleDSM

It's not a necessity to use thermal grease, I do recommend it though. It will improve heat transfer between the drop-in and the host, giving you more lumen.

You can use any type of thermal grease found at any computer store. My personal favourite is Artic Silver 5.

Isopropyle will remove any trace of the thermal grease if you decide you want to remove it from your host.



Right now I am PMing people on the original list, post #320. After I am through the list I will be making a sales thread and selling these first come first serve.


----------



## Hammer Train

pm sent :wave:


----------



## smokelaw1

Wait, now I'm more confused than ever. Is the thermal grease required/strongly suggested for use as a P60 dropin? I'll be using mine in a bored 6P, and have no thermal grease. 
If needed...what kind do you recommend?


----------



## VanIsleDSM

It's not necessary, but I do recommend it.

The surface area is large enough, it won't really matter which type you use, can just be the cheapo white stuff. But even the expensive stuff is cheap enough, I've had the same tube for a long time. Arctic Silver 5 is what I use.

I use it between every drop-in in every flashlight though.

I don't have any actual figures, but with the grease you'll lower the thermal resistance between the drop-in and host. Might be 5-10C. You'll gain some output for sure, less heat will be trapped inside the host. How much? I can't say for certain, but it will help.


----------



## donn_

Do you think the effects will be as dramatic with the silver-plated drop-in? If it's snug in the FM host, won't the silver plating essentially do the same thing?


----------



## VanIsleDSM

The silver plating is to help spread heat around the outside of the heatsinik, and to stop any oxidization from building up on the copper. Oxidization is good for emitting heat (like an anodized heatsink) but it's a very poor conductor of heat, and since a drop-in is a conductive heatsink, (conducts heat into the host, which then dissipates it) not a convective, or emissive heatsink, I use the silver plating to enure there's no "insulation" between the drop-in and the host. This is the same reason why I do not anodize my aluminum drop-ins. I have my own anodizing tank, but doing this makes the heatsink conduct heat into the host less effectively.

Thermal grease fills up all of the little micro gaps that are still there, even with a snug fit, to ensure the best thermal transfer possible. The CPU in your computer has a heatspreader milled flat, very precisely, as does the heatsink, but using thermal grease stills makes a big defference, nobody doesn't do it, all of the OEMS use it. 

It is still completely up to you though. If you want the extra output, however much it may be, then go for it. Artic Silver 5 (AS5) will probably be $5-15 at your local computer store. I just put a little dab on the inside of the host, and then smear it around with some paper towel over my finger, remove any excess, just a thin layer all the way around is what you want, not enough to ooze out when you push the drop-in down.


----------



## flashfiend

I strongly advise you to design the FETtie to screw into the 26XXX tail. I may have to withdraw my interest in the 26XXX version of the FETtie if it does not have this feature.

Btw, I thought thermal grease is a poor electrical conductor. Can this create another potential issue?


----------



## VanIsleDSM

Post #337 explains perfectly well that I am making threaded versions now.

I was just trying to keep costs down, but out the window with that I suppose. I have a few plastic drop-in FETties around I'll let go for less, but the new brass threaded ones will be $38 and fit both FM and Surefire hosts.

Thermal grease is a poor thermal conductor compared to aluminum or copper, but not compared to air, which is what would fill the microgaps if you didn't use thermal grease.

My drop-ins don't make electrical connections through the heatsink, therefore the thermal grease will have no effect on this. The ground is made through a silver plated beryllium copper spring, with a gold plated contact area. -No better way to possibly do it.


----------



## flashfiend

VanIsleDSM said:


> Post #337 explains perfectly well that I am making threaded versions now.
> 
> I was just trying to keep costs down, but out the window with that I suppose. I have a few plastic drop-in FETties around I'll let go for less, but the new brass threaded ones will be $38 and fit both FM and Surefire hosts.
> 
> Thermal grease is a poor thermal conductor compared to aluminum or copper, but not compared to air, which is what would fill the microgaps if you didn't use thermal grease.
> 
> My drop-ins don't make electrical connections through the heatsink, therefore the thermal grease will have no effect on this. The ground is made through a silver plated beryllium copper spring, with a gold plated contact area. -No better way to possibly do it.



Sorry for my misunderstanding and thank you for clarifying. I am glad the new version fits both the FM 26XXX and Surefire hosts. Can you please confirm my order by PM? Thanks again.


----------



## VanIsleDSM

Well, sorry for the teaser, the new switch will not fit both hosts. 

I forgot about the stupid little lip in the surefire Z59 tailcap that doesn't allow the threads the screw down far enough. The switch has to be so shallow to fit in the Z59, that there are no threads that far down, and a seemingly useless lip which would stop any threading from passing by (which is why it can't be interchangeable) The 6P Z59 switch must remain a drop-in.

The FM version will thread in. The 6P version will drop in and use a friction fit inside the switch boot to hold it in place while the tailcap is removed.


Forgot to mention, the new brass threaded FM26XXX FETtie will be able to heatsink into the tailcap, so I will be using a thermally enhanced MOSFET package which will bump the FM FETtie's current allowance from 12A to 50A, and up to 20V. This should work well for crazy direct drive projects, and hotwire users.


----------



## flashfiend

VanIsleDSM said:


> Well, sorry for the teaser, the new switch will not fit both hosts.
> 
> I forgot about the stupid little lip in the surefire Z59 tailcap that doesn't allow the threads the screw down far enough. The switch has to be so shallow to fit in the Z59, that there are no threads that far down, and a seemingly useless lip which would stop any threading from passing by (which is why it can't be interchangeable) The 6P Z59 switch must remain a drop-in.
> 
> The FM version will thread in. The 6P version will drop in and use a friction fit inside the switch boot to hold it in place while the tailcap is removed.



AFAIK, the AW switch for the Z59 is a drop-in, possibly similar to what you just described for your FETtie. As for my purposes I am hoping to use your FETtie in a FM26XXX body and your quad drop-in. Just waiting to hear the good news from you.


----------



## VanIsleDSM

What is the AW switch? Can you post a link?

Just fnishing up the first 3 threaded FM26XXX FETties right now. One for you flashfiend, and the other two for donn and ptolemy, sent out free of charge to replace the non threaded versions they received.


----------



## donn_

VanIsleDSM said:


> What is the AW switch? Can you post a link?
> 
> Just fnishing up the first 3 threaded FM26XXX FETties right now. One for you flashfiend, and the other two for donn and ptolemy, sent out free of charge to replace the non threaded versions they received.



:twothumbs

No sign of the drop-in yet. The last update on tracking is it left San Francisco Customs on Saturday at ~noon.

The AW Softstart switch is a PWM based softstarter with 3 output levels and flash. It's made for use with incans.


----------



## flashfiend

VanIsleDSM said:


> What is the AW switch? Can you post a link?
> 
> Just fnishing up the first 3 threaded FM26XXX FETties right now. One for you flashfiend, and the other two for donn and ptolemy, sent out free of charge to replace the non threaded versions they received.



AW Incan Switch (see Version A for Surefire Z59) Version B is for the Surefire Z41 tailcap.

I hope this helps.


----------



## ptolemy

VanIsleDSM said:


> What is the AW switch? Can you post a link?
> 
> Just fnishing up the first 3 threaded FM26XXX FETties right now. One for you flashfiend, and the other two for donn and ptolemy, sent out free of charge to replace the non threaded versions they received.


 
thanks! 



donn_ said:


> :twothumbs
> 
> *No sign of the drop-in yet. The last update on tracking is it left San Francisco Customs on Saturday at ~noon.*


 
same here.


----------



## VanIsleDSM

It looks from the AW pictures that my FM verson may fit a Z41, though I can't say for sure.

I don't have a Z41 tailcap to test on, I suppose I should get one.

First person to confirm by PM that they have a Z41 and are willing to ship it to me, will receive their Z41 tailcap back with a free FETtie installed.


----------



## donn_

I don't do PM, but I'll send you the Z41.

Email your mailing address


----------



## donn_

Wow! 

I don't know what else to say.

It's here, installed, and incredibly bright. It also has a gorgeous tint.

Here's the host:






And down the muzzle:






Some initial impressions:

This is, by far, the heaviest P60 drop-in I've ever seen. It's easily twice as heavy as Malkoff's brass bell units.

The drop-in didn't make contact with the cell until I added a thin magnet to the positive end of the cell.

Great spacing in the lo-med-hi levels, and it appears to have memory.

The FETtie works fine, although I'm looking forward to the screw-in model. I'm certain to forget it's loose in there, and the first time I change cells, it'll drop out.

The FETtie is a reverse clicky. I must have missed that part of the description. I hate reverse clickies, because they are only on maybe 3-4 of my lights, and they have no momentary, but I'll get used to it.

The beam is not a white-wall hunter. It doesn't have a round hotspot, and its hotspot is large. Spill is ample. I'd call it a medium flood beam, but it's still daylight, and I haven't had it out in the dark yet.

Did I say it's bright? The first thing I did upon installation was shine the high level on the white ceiling 3 feet above my head. It blinded me!

:goodjob::thanks:


----------



## VanIsleDSM

I'm glad you enjoy! Wait until you see it at night, it's a field lighter.

The optic is a Khatod Italian made 10 degree FWHM beam with an XPE, so slightly wider with an XPG. It is the tightest beam of any small triple or quad optic, and cost 3X as much as the Carclo optics that try to compete with them.

The driver does have memory, and a low battery warning for use with unprotected cells.

I am surprised that you needed a spacer though, that larger head that you are using must have slightly more space in it. What type of cell are you using?



I do need to get all the final specifications up. The drop-in is nice and heavy because I have paid attention to every little detail while engineering it to make it as good as it can possibly be. The reason there is no spring on the positive contact, is that there is no need for one, there is already a spring for the switch. This allows me to drop the driver down, and create a very thick heatsink base for the LEDs, 7.2mm thick, over a 1/4". Even the aluminum version has a nice weight to it. 

I'll have your threaded FETtie in the mail asap, just had to get the thermally enhanced MOSFETs in. I would like to make a forward clicky version of the FETtie for those that prefer. Personally I like reverse clickies, so you can change modes without clicking off the light, but I understand that there are those that don't. The problem is that reverse clickies are shallow enough to fit in with the battery and elctronics.. just barely, and I mean barely fit. I would have to find quite a small forward clicky to be able to utilize it, but I'm sure one exists.


----------



## donn_

The spacer was needed because the head is a shock isolated head. There's a rubber gasket ahead of the drop-in which isn't strong enough to push the drop-in down to contact the cell. 

It's this cell.

What is the indication of low battery?


----------



## donn_

> Personally I like reverse clickies, so you can change modes without clicking off the light..



Ahh, but with the forward clickie, you can change the mode without clicking it on! Momentary tap to reach the mode you want, and click it in to lock.

It's all in what one is used to. As I said, I only have a couple of reverse clicky lights, so I'm used to the forward.


----------



## ptolemy

Mine is still not here - wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

yours looks splendid


----------



## donn_

It's dark outside now, but it's raining. :shakehead


----------



## VanIsleDSM

That appeares to be the same cell that I am using, though mine is blue, maybe slightly older, it wasn't long ago that I ordered them from batteryspace myself.

Makes sense that it's the head. I'd maybe try to add an O-ring to compress the drop-in further, rather than a magnet. At these current levels using a magnetic spacer will add resistance and cause your light to drop out of regulation sooner, though not by much, I am obsessed with absolute efficiency and performance of the entire flashlight, not just the LEDs themselves.

The low battery indication kicks in at 2.75V, the light will drop into low mode and will intermittently blink off for a quick flash and then back on. It won't leave you without light when you need it, but it will let you know it's time to change the cell.


----------



## don.gwapo

donn_ said:


> Wow! Did I say it's bright? The first thing I did upon installation was shine the high level on the white ceiling 3 feet above my head. It blinded me!


 
Donn, looking forward for the beamshots. :naughty:.


----------



## Bimmerboy

donn_ said:


> It's dark outside now, but it's raining. :shakehead


Not anymore! 

:devil:

EDIT: And we've been back to continuous rain since like, 12:30. 

Looking forward to some beamshots!


----------



## flashfiend

donn_ said:


> Ahh, but with the forward clickie, you can change the mode without clicking it on! Momentary tap to reach the mode you want, and click it in to lock.
> 
> It's all in what one is used to. As I said, I only have a couple of reverse clicky lights, so I'm used to the forward.



Funny enough I am actually liking the idea of the FETtie being a reverse clicky. There's been a few times I've cycled through the level I want with the forward clicky.

Btw donn, is this the module with the silver plated copper heatsink you received? Is this why the module is so much heavier than other drop-ins you've had in the past?


----------



## donn_

Yes..it is the silver-plated copper copy, and I believe that must be why it is so heavy.


----------



## ptolemy

I got mine today, it's sweet. Here are some quick and dirty pics

I couldn't install the fettie, so using mcclickie 

I really like the tint, it's like cream color or so

oh and like donn_, i also neeed 2 small magnets to make a contact probably about 2mm


----------



## VanIsleDSM

In the PM you sent me ptolemy, you said you couldn't install the FETtie because you were unable to remove the McClicky? There are two indents in the aluminum adapter that you can stick needle nose pliers into, to thread out the McClicky.

These larger heads have more longitudinal room in them than the standard 6P head that I use to test for fitment, thus the need for a magnet.

Does anyone have a link to where I can acquire one of these larger heads? I would like to make a plastic spacer that will compress the drop-in further, eliminating the need for another contact point.


----------



## ptolemy

VanIsleDSM said:


> In the PM you sent me ptolemy, you said you couldn't install the FETtie because you were unable to remove the McClicky? There are two indents in the aluminum adapter that you can stick needle nose pliers into, to thread out the McClicky.
> 
> These larger heads have more longitudinal room in them than the standard 6P head that I use to test for fitment, thus the need for a magnet.
> 
> Does anyone have a link to where I can acquire one of these larger heads? I would like to make a plastic spacer that will compress the drop-in further, eliminating the need for another contact point.


 hi

the heads are here post #4
i can send you the head since i am mailing you the fettie/tailcap anyway.

i found the groove but i tried unscrewing it and it wouldnt budge and i dont want to ruin it.


----------



## Noctis

ptolemy said:


> hi
> 
> the heads are here post #4
> i can send you the head since i am mailing you the fettie/tailcap anyway.
> 
> i found the groove but i tried unscrewing it and it wouldnt budge and i dont want to ruin it.


I ran into the same problem, but later found out that the retaining ring simply requires a LOT of torque in order to unscrew. I suspect there might be some kind of threadlocker holding it in place. You can try to boil the tailcap to loosen it, though pushing down REALLY hard and turning might do the trick.


----------



## LightJunk

Noctis said:


> I ran into the same problem, but later found out that the retaining ring simply requires a LOT of torque in order to unscrew. I suspect there might be some kind of threadlocker holding it in place. You can try to boil the tailcap to loosen it, though pushing down REALLY hard and turning might do the trick.



Same here. FM could be using a tool secured to a driller to secure the ring. I tried the latter and it worked after much swearing. No signs of thread locker though.

EDIT: Double checked mine and confirm no signs of thread locker. I used the Leatherman plier.


----------



## donn_

There was definitely thread locker on mine. you can see it (red goop) in this photo:






I used right angle pliers and a strap wrench.


----------



## ptolemy

It's not even that. I be first to admit that I am not really handy. Flashlights are pure hobby for me, ie: toys....

This drop-in is pure fun for me...

I figured I would'nt be able to unscrew it without damage and I couldn't.

I live in a small apartment, no workbench or anything...just screw driver/pliers/hammer here...no other tools 

It's already mailed off, hopefully, he can install threaded fettie for me.


----------



## VanIsleDSM

Threaded FETtie for the FM 26XXX is complete.

I think it may also work for the Z41 tailcap, maybe with slight modification. I will know when I receive the Z41 cap from Donn.

I will send out the threaded version for Donn as I return the Z41 cap, with a FETtie for it aswell.

I will send out the threaded version for ptolemy as soon as I receive the FM tailcap to install it in.

How does the Z41 compare in popularity to the Z59? Which one should I expect more requests for?


----------



## donn_

VanIsleDSM said:


> How does the Z41 compare in popularity to the Z59? Which one should I expect more requests for?



I can't prove it, but I'd bet there are far more Z41 caps in circulation than Z59.

How may FETtie requests you get, in total, depends upon how many of your drop-in you sell, and how many other applications there are for the switch in other lights.

What else is it good for?

Incan hotwires? What's the current capability?

Other LED drop-ins or permanent builds?


----------



## Kestrel

donn_ said:


> I can't prove it, but I'd bet there are far more Z41 caps in circulation than Z59.


+1. VIDSM, the vast majority of the C-format SF's (6P/9P/Z2/Z3/C2/C3) ship with Z41 twisties, and those who want them may 'upgrade' to the Z59 tailcaps.


----------



## VanIsleDSM

That is good news. I hope that the FETtie for the FM will thread into the Z41 cap as well. Would be nice to have a universal fit.

The new threaded version has a thermally enhanced MOSFET rated for 60A at 20V. I think it would probably be very useful for high power incans.

Direct drive LED lights, or any high amperage application would benefit immensly from a FETtie. A solid state switch with an extemely low resistance inscreases brightness in any direct drive light, and increases runtime in any regulated light, with the effects becoming more noticeable as current increases.

I don't think a lot of CPFers realize how much power they are wasting in their switches in many applications. I intend to do a little test to show the differences between some switches as soon as I get a chance.


----------



## donn_

Well..I can't think of any 20V 60A flashlight applications, but there are certainly a lot of 20V incan lights in the 10+A range.


----------



## Kestrel

VanIsleDSM said:


> I don't think a lot of CPFers realize how much power they are wasting in their switches in many applications. I intend to do a little test to show the differences between some switches as soon as I get a chance.


This would be interesting, particularly a comparison to Moddoo's ZeroRes Z41 tailcap mod - it is the current champ of low-resistance setups for the Z41 tailcap. From what I gather, the McClicky is decent, while the basic SF Z41 isn't that great due to spring & contact resistance.

What is unfortunate with regards to switching parts around (i.e. for mix & match) is that Moddoo's upgrades have the single spring on the dropin and a solid rear contact in the upgraded Z41, while your units have a solid front on the dropin & the single spring in the rear - essentially incompatible. :sigh:


----------



## flashfiend

Kestrel said:


> +1. VIDSM, the vast majority of the C-format SF's (6P/9P/Z2/Z3/C2/C3) ship with Z41 twisties, and those who want them may upgrade to the Z59 tailcaps.



I personally don't look at the Z59 as an upgrade at all. I believe the more popular upgrades are for Z41 tailcaps (Oveready McClicky or Zero Resistance Twisty).


----------



## VanIsleDSM

I'm glad that has been brought to my attention. I was intending my surefire version for the Z59 tailcap, as it's the "clicky" tailcap.

It looks like everythig may be much easier with a universal fit using the Z41.

Using a piece of wire soldered to either end of the spring in the orginal Z41 tailcap is essentially the same thing as the Zero-Res mod, from what I can see. If this is an interest of people, to have a cheaper twisty option, I could make a silver plated beryllium copper spring, with gold plated contact, to replace the original spring in the Z41 tailcap. This would preform much better than raw brass for contact resistance, and provide the benefits of a spring.

I prefer myself, having an actual clicky switch, especially for quick one handed mode changes and such, but it is more complicated and expensive than the twisty option.


----------



## Kestrel

flashfiend said:


> I personally don't look at the Z59 as an upgrade at all. I believe the more popular upgrades are for Z41 tailcaps (Oveready McClicky or Zero Resistance Twisty).


+1000 :thumbsup: (I used the term 'upgrade' since that would be in the eye of the beholder, in this case the person purchasing the Z59. I myself have nothing but Z41's. )


VanIsleDSM said:


> Using a piece of wire soldered to either end of the spring in the orginal Z41 tailcap is essentially the same thing as the Zero-Res mod, from what I can see. If this is an interest of people, to have a cheaper twisty option, I could make a silver plated beryllium copper spring, with gold plated contact, to replace the original spring in the Z41 tailcap. This would preform much better than raw brass for contact resistance, and provide the benefits of a spring.


Very interesting - I'd like to see what is possible in the Z41 format. :huh:


----------



## nfetterly

Z41 is considerably cheaper (& easier to get on the marketplace), so much more desirable (to me) to gut a Z41.


----------



## smokelaw1

Don't have time for a full review, and won't until at least the weekend, but may be able to get some beamshots up then.

Let me just say...GREAT dropin. Got the two level, and am thrilled with it in a 6p with McClicky. Tried the zero-res, and didn't get light, and didn't have time to tinker to see what was up. Will try again over the weekend. 

Great tint, great beam. 

Thanks!! Gota order some more 18650's, as now I have too many lights up and running that need it.


----------



## don.gwapo

smokelaw1 said:


> but may be able to get some beamshots up then.


 
Yes please, a lot of us is waiting for a beamshot with this great drop-in. .


----------



## VanIsleDSM

smokelaw, I believe the zero-res tailcap doesn't work for reasons Kestrel pointed pointed out, it has no spring, and neither does my drop-in.

The McClicky does work, and I will have test results to show how well very soon. I made a frankenstein drop-in today, specifically for monitoring current and battery voltage. I have to run a slight stream of water over the host to keep it cool during the test :devil:

These switch tests will also double as runtime tests, I'm discharging cells and charging them back up now, gathering data.

I am in a bit of a holding pattern at the moment, waiting to receive the Z41 tailcap from Donn, so I can sort out the FETtie fitment in that cap before I continue building drop-ins, as I'm sure drop-in buyers will want to know what their switching options are. Looks as though I should be able to provide a less expensive high current sprung twisty mod as well, but I'll have to wait and see to be certain.


----------



## donn_

I just traced to package, and, as usual when shipping to or from Canada, it is in postal limbo. It left Jamaica, NY, presumably by air, on the 18th.


----------



## VanIsleDSM

I didn't receive the cap before the weekend, hopefully by the end of today. I did complete all of the testing for the 26650 FM host though, and the results are better than I had expected.

I have a graph made to illustrate it nicely, but I'll post it along with the graph for the AW 18650 2600mAh, and the graph for the 18650 IMR 1600mAh.

The McClicky with the 26650 MNKE 4000mAh cell holds at 4.2A for about 5min, while the FETtie holds at 4.2A for 20min.

Edit: On second thought, might not look like I'll have it today either, could be another day before I can get the tests for the other cells up, so here it is:







I did the test until 1.84A draw. This corresponds to a figure of 725 lumen, or half brightness of the drop-in.

These results would be compounded largely with higher currents.


----------



## euroken

Oh man, I can't wait until you get down the list!!!

Please check the PM from me in the past please Van!


----------



## flashfiend

Ooh, I love graphs. This is gonna be great for your drop-in and my direct drive sst-90 drop-in. Now, the wait.


----------



## ptolemy

Hopefully it will arrive asap!


----------



## Hammer Train

I think there are many of us eagerly awaiting this drop-in and tail switch mod. I can't wait to get it in my fm 1*26500 with an A001 head!


----------



## VanIsleDSM

Pleased to announce that fitment for the FETtie is universal between the FM 26XXX host, and the Z41 tailcap.

Testing right now.


----------



## ptolemy

VanIsleDSM said:


> Pleased to announce that fitment for the FETtie is universal between the FM 26XXX host, and the Z41 tailcap.
> 
> Testing right now.


 does that mean my package arrived?


----------



## VanIsleDSM

Unfortunately not yet ptolemy, I received the Z41 tailcap from Donn.

I have the graphs for AW18650 2600mAh and AW18650 IMR 1600mAh. I'll post the 26650 graph again too, just so it's easier to see them all together. The IMR likes to hold voltage better, if only it had the same capacity.

Fitment is universal. I'll be continuing my way through the waiting list now, and I will be developing a twisty upgrade option for the Z41 as well.


----------



## donn_

I'm glad the Z41 finally arrived.

My prediction came true this morning. I unscrewed the FM 26650 tail to change the battery, and the FETtie popped out. Fortunately, I was on a carpeted floor, so it landed softly.


----------



## kellyglanzer

Hammer Train said:


> I think there are many of us eagerly awaiting this drop-in and tail switch mod. I can't wait to get it in my fm 1*26500 with an A001 head!


 

+1 but 26650 host and A001 head.


----------



## flashfiend

I can't believe I am so close to getting one of these bad boys. 

 for drop-in and 2-FETties.


----------



## J-FRAME

Received my 2 mode quad yesterday. Pretty awesome.The low is just right for runtime and normal use. Then you have lots of lumens with a click all in a SF 6p.Remember when 60 lm was cool in a 6p who would have ever though it?


----------



## kellyglanzer

So with 30+ people still on the list, what is the time frame to be able to aquire one of these? Just wondering what your build time is looking like?
Will you take deposits or will there be another list or ?

No pressure just wondering. :naughty:


----------



## psychbeat

was away for a while and am

:thumbsup:sooooo stoked to see this is still happening and that there's been
so much progress!!!

Looks like Ill need to upgrade my McClicky to a Fettie too.

seems like for single 18650 the aluminum one with slightly lower
max is a good idea.

NICE WORK VI DSM!!!!


----------



## VanIsleDSM

Thanks!

I am more than halfway through the list. I expect another couple weeks or so and then I will be making a first come first serve sales thread.


----------



## Drywolf

I have the host, now I need the FETtie and copper drop in


----------



## Bimmerboy

Hmmm... no beamshots to help prod a fellow flashaholic into spending money he doesn't have? :shrug:

For shame!


----------



## flashfiend

Just want to give a big :twothumbs for this drop-in. Hope the rest of you like yours.


----------



## tre

VanIsleDSM said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I am more than halfway through the list. I expect another couple weeks or so and then I will be making a first come first serve sales thread.



Excellent. I am interested.


----------



## jgraham15

tre said:


> Excellent. I am interested.




Me too!


----------



## flashfiend

*Quad XP-G 4000K vs Sunlight vs WA1185*

Color comparisons.

Quad XP-G 4000K vs Sunlight vs WA1185 (White Balance adjusted to light source)

*VanIsleDSM Quad XP-G 4000K CRI 75*






Sunlight 3PM (Pacific)





WA1185


----------



## VanIsleDSM

Wow! 

Is it just me or does the red look more vibrant under the LEDs? That's surprising, a welcome surprise! The blue and violet under the LEDs look brilliant!


----------



## flashfiend

It's not just you. The red looks fantastic under the 4000K LEDs. I was actually surprised because they seemed to outperform a CREE MC-E Warm 3500K as well.

The other comparisons are *here*


----------



## quadcree

How do I get one of these?!!!


----------



## ptolemy

I got my parts back....the switch looks solid...pretty cool looking

everything works fine

if anyone wants any kind of shots? ask


----------



## powerup93

I think thats obvious ptolemy :naughty:

Could you please post beamshots as best as you can - outdoors particularly in an open field or with distant objects and if you can with comparisons to other popular dropins like malkoffs...or triples etc. THX, i know thats asking alot but we've all been waiting for quite a long time for beamshots.


----------



## ptolemy

powerup93 said:


> I think thats obvious ptolemy :naughty:
> 
> Could you please post beamshots as best as you can - outdoors particularly in an open field or with distant objects and if you can with comparisons to other popular dropins like malkoffs...or triples etc. THX, i know thats asking alot but we've all been waiting for quite a long time for beamshots.


 problem is, i don't have such

like, open field/etc I live in ana apartment complex.

I have few lights I can compare it too, but only in doors.
ill try to do some comparisons tomorow when I am free


----------



## VanIsleDSM

PMs have been sent to all of those remaining on the list. 

In full production now.

Silver plated copper drop-ins will be available in limited quanity.

There will be a sales thread for everyone soon.


----------



## TSWrench

I have not received a PM, and I'm on the list. PM sent.


----------



## VanIsleDSM

When the CPF database issue happened quite some time ago, I had sent a few PMs, but then I was held up with the FETtie design for a while, and haven't again until now.

If you are on the list, but I missed you, just let me know.


----------



## kellyglanzer

VanIsleDSM said:


> PMs have been sent to all of those remaining on the list.
> 
> In full production now.
> 
> Silver plated copper drop-ins will be available in limited quanity.
> 
> There will be a sales thread for everyone soon.


 

Ready and waiting to send funds...:thumbsup:


----------



## kellyglanzer

I would like to have my host ready for this drop in. Will you be able to sell me a *FETie *switch on its own or installed?
Also What is this "silver plated copper sleeved heatsink finned host" I have read of?

kelly



VanIsleDSM said:


> FETie has undergone a slight redesign, to try and increase fitment in all hosts, it will be ditching the retaining ring and screw directly in itself, waiting on some materials arriving tomorrow and they will be ready soon.
> 
> Also waiting for a Solarforce host in the mail from lighthound, so I can built the clone conversion kit. I have some copper foil on the way that is the right thickness to fill the extra diameter gap, as long as it's easy to install without tearing and such, which I think it will be, copper is much more malleable than aluminum. That along with the tapered piece to fit the skinnier spring on my drop-in should provide good fitment and near genuine surefire thermal transfer.
> 
> So, in the very near future look for the copper version, the FETie, and the clone conversion kit.
> 
> In about the month's time, I should have my silver plated copper sleeved heatsink finned host for sale, that will allow for ever better heat transfer, and when used with a copper drop-in, liquid metal can be used instead of arctic silver, increasing the thermal conductance from the drop-in to the host by over 800%.
> 
> And of course there is more in the works... I usually like to wait until I get further along on things before I mention them, as no inventor's every idea pans out! ...and I don't want to get anyone's hopes up for no reason.
> 
> P.S. Sorry for my poor photography. I'll get a friend to take some nice pics soon.


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## psychbeat

Im thinking one of these modules in a p60 headlamp host 
(if such a thing existed) powered by 2 parallel 18650s would
be the SICKEST MTN bike and caving lamp...

really stoked this project came together!


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## VanIsleDSM

kellyglanzer said:


> I would like to have my host ready for this drop in. Will you be able to sell me a *FETie *switch on its own or installed?
> Also What is this "silver plated copper sleeved heatsink finned host" I have read of?
> 
> kelly


 
For now FETties are available with my drop-ins, eventually they'll be available on their own too. If you're not comfortable installing one on your own I will do it for you if you ship your host to me.

The silver platet copper sleeved heatsink finned host is something I have plans for, and you may see in the future.


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## kellyglanzer

VanIsleDSM said:


> For now FETties are available with my drop-ins, eventually they'll be available on their own too. If you're not comfortable installing one on your own I will do it for you if you ship your host to me.
> 
> The silver platet copper sleeved heatsink finned host is something I have plans for, and you may see in the future.


 

PM sent on FETie install.


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