# Germans hoarding Incands



## LuxLuthor (Jul 30, 2009)

This made my day. Especially this quote regarding the upcoming EU ban on incans.



> *"It's unbelievable what is happening," says Werner Wiesner, the head of Megaman, a manufacturer of energy-saving bulbs. Wiesner recounts a story of how one of his field representatives recently saw a man in a hardware store with a shopping cart full of light bulbs of all types worth more than €200 ($285). "That's enough for the next 20 years."*



I got enough to last 40 years...quite a few months back....probably filled 2 shopping carts at Home Despot. I told the lady I was having a party and needed all the bulbs.



> *In fact, in creating this legislation, the EU failed to address consumer preferences and the reservations of a number of other groups. For example, many have complained that the light emitted by a CFL bulb is colder and weaker and that its high-frequency flickering can cause headaches. Then there are complaints about the mercury the CFL bulbs contain, how there is no system for disposing of them in a convenient and environmentally friendly way, and how they allegedly result in exposure to radiation levels higher than allowed under international guidelines.*
> 
> *For some, the issue is also one of broken promises. For example, manufacturers of CFL bulbs justify their higher prices by claiming that they last much longer than traditional bulbs. But a recent test by the environmentally-oriented consumer-protection magazine Öko Test found that 16 of the 32 bulb types tested gave up the ghost after 6,000 hours of use -- or much earlier than their manufacturers had promised.*
> 
> *And then, of course, there's the issue of the light the bulbs emit. Many complain that the lights are just not bright enough and that they falsify colors. The Hamburger Kunsthalle, for example, recently made a bulk order for 600 incandescent light bulbs to make sure that it can keep illuminating the works it displays in the time-honored way.*



Some smart Germans.


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## KevinL (Jul 30, 2009)

Haha...the ban backfiring!

The $5 tax on the bulbs is a much better way. That way it would actually force people to rethink their strategy rather than fight it.


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## Haz (Jul 30, 2009)

I think that will happen in Australia soon


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## Fichtenelch (Jul 30, 2009)

Yeah, it's really stupid what is happening in this country. Just ban all standard-bulbs, no matter how often you use them. If you only have a bulb in a lumber-room, which is running maybe 10 Hours/Year, it's really worth to buy a energy-saving one for that...that's germany...


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## angelofwar (Jul 30, 2009)

Wow...glad I live in the USA...we're not banning them...yet (fingers crossed). i bought the CSL bulbs for my house. Saw no real energy savings, and they're all burnt out now....:candle:


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## [email protected] (Jul 30, 2009)

If you want fresh Australian incan bulbs just give me a buzz :devil:. I feel sorry for you guys. Are these still okay in Europe?





They are halogen and a third more efficient.


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## Fichtenelch (Jul 30, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> If you want fresh Australian incan bulbs just give me a buzz :devil:. I feel sorry for you guys. Are these still okay in Europe?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Haven't seen these here yet, looks nice...But i think that the voltage doesn't fit, we got 230V here...


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## lctorana (Jul 30, 2009)

I've stocked up.


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## cernobila (Jul 30, 2009)

Fichtenelch said:


> Haven't seen these here yet, looks nice...But i think that the voltage doesn't fit, we got 230V here...



In AU we have 240V.........time to check out my local "light" store to see the latest in "Incan" bulbs is all about......and then get the credit card out......again.


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## maxilux (Jul 30, 2009)

@fichtenelch

You can get these bulbs here in every good shop they are from Osram called Energy Saver. They are ok, i use them for myself.


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## RobertM (Jul 30, 2009)

I don't blame them for wanting to stock up. I recently bought a pack of neutral temp CFLs and tried them in one room...they were returned the next day. :shakehead The just don't feel comfortable and the colors definitely seemed off.

If they ever ban them here in the US, I too am stocking up!

-Robert


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## Fichtenelch (Jul 30, 2009)

maxilux said:


> @fichtenelch
> 
> You can get these bulbs here in every good shop they are from Osram called Energy Saver. They are ok, i use them for myself.



Haven't had a look for these, because i only got halogen in my appartment, all over...But since my brother is working @ Osram, it might be not too difficult to get these


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## wapkil (Jul 30, 2009)

angelofwar said:


> Wow...glad I live in the USA...we're not banning them...yet (fingers crossed).





RobertM said:


> If they ever ban them here in the US, I too am stocking up!



Doesn't the Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007 already result in banning them in the US, only effective a few years later?


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## Kiessling (Jul 30, 2009)

I'll do the same in the next days. No one tells me not to use incan bulbs if I want to. 

Not that I use a lot of them anyway, but I really hate stupid crap like this. Count me in for the hoarding


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## jayflash (Jul 30, 2009)

While I use CFLs, there are problems not yet solved. Incans still make better sense for some uses.

1) Most of mine break way before they grow old. Incans cost only 25 cents to replace.

2) Obtaining a CFL with good color, lack of flicker, quick starting, low cost, durable construction, and long life, all together, is difficult. Buying a good incan is simple.

3) With the incredibly complex circuitry in CFLs, I've got to wonder about their real cradle to grave greenness.


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## Patriot (Jul 30, 2009)

In addition to incan hording, I think Germans ought to establish a yearly mercury festival in which local communities go toss their burned out CFL's into the middle of the street. They could then crunch the broken glass beneath their shoes as they dance to music and drink beer.....




now I'm in trouble :tinfoil:


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## f22shift (Jul 30, 2009)

this is so funny.

i can imagine some burgular breaking in someone's home and stealing the incan light bulbs along with the tv 

i like the cfl for lightings that i never shut off in rooms. but for doing something(eating at the dining table, working at the office desk, cooking in the kitchen) i can only use the regular ican or halogens. cfl's definitely are no where the same and seem to loose contrast and i find it hard to focus. almost seems to glare objects.
plus i have digital dimmers switches in multiple locations and they are not compatible with cfl's(even the so called dimmable ones). i would hate to not be able to adjust my output.

i would go all incan but i did notice a huge drop in electricity by switching certain lights to cfl's. they have their purpose but should not be the only choice.


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## 325addict (Jul 30, 2009)

This is not only in Germany, all countries of the European Union are affected...
I live in the Netherlands and I just bought about TEN big cartons full of clear incandescent lamps of all kinds and Wattages.

I think a total of more than 500 candle-style lamps, more than 100 in 15W, more than 300 in 25W and about 100 in 40W to feed my chandeliers, a few ordinary ones (maybe 150 or so) and more than 10 of those enormous globes (120mm) to have in the lamp in the kitchen, above the table I eat at. Then all kinds of specialties like those ones with a silver "cap" on it (don't know how they are called in English) and some of those very long and slender 25W lamps by Osram, meant to light up paintings.
Oh, and 40 of those Osram "energy saving" halogen candles are also included. And many, many more... as I said, about 10 large boxes crammed full of incan bulbs. This supply may live longer than I do 


Timmo.


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## maxilux (Jul 30, 2009)

Patriot said:


> In addition to incan hording, I think Germans ought to establish a yearly mercury festival in which local communities go toss their burned out CFL's into the middle of the street. They could then crunch the broken glass beneath their shoes as they dance to music and drink beer.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...





???? I dont know this, sorry


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## lolzertank (Jul 30, 2009)

CFLs are horrible. Poor life, color rendition and efficiency. 

Warm 90 CRI T8 fluorescent bulbs on the other hand are way better.

Just use the tubes in places where the lights are going to be on for a long time and halogens everywhere else.


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## Linger (Jul 30, 2009)

I care about colour. I've spent a nice bit of cash upgrading my flashlights to warm tints.

Around the hosue, I use Luminus 23w (350ma) 'energy efficient' bulbs from Costco, they come 8pack in re-usable plastic case. They are a dead match for GE incans. I've run them side by side or 2to1 , 1to2 in 3 bulb fixtures and my partner and I both agree you can't tell which is the incan (bulb hidden in frosted glass). I've replaced them all through the house (and stuck the incans protectively back in safe packaging). I've stocked up on the luminus bulbs, as well as incans, as for years I hadn't found anything decent.
PM me for model number

I'll give that the rated life isn't what as advertised as I've had to replace a bulb and I haven't had this house that long. (of course one bulbs doesn't a test make)


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## MarNav1 (Jul 30, 2009)

Ahhh..............Yet another scam. Will it ever end?


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## f22shift (Jul 30, 2009)

slightly off topic. i wasnt in the local walmart some time ago and i noticed that they had led lights that can screw into the standard bulb socket. it was just 1 p7 led with a reflector. i wonder how well it does. i think it was GE.

back on topic, i noticed also that it's just 100w bulbs for now. what's to stop someone from using 2 lamps with 50w bulbs. is it a total full ban eventually?


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## cernobila (Jul 30, 2009)

Well how about making this mandatory change a "Health Hazard". People should sue for being forced to use these new lights that give them headaches, loss of balance, low productivity, poisonings from accidentally breaking them at home and at work, as well as a bunch of other negative effects........Sue, sue, sue I tell you, just sue.....nothing talks like money does.


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## wapkil (Jul 30, 2009)

cernobila said:


> Well how about making this mandatory change a "Health Hazard". People should sue for being forced to use these new lights that give them headaches, loss of balance, low productivity, poisonings from accidentally breaking them at home and at work, as well as a bunch of other negative effects........Sue, sue, sue I tell you, just sue.....nothing talks like money does.



Sue whom? The lawmakers or the law that bans incandescent bulbs? In many countries you could try to prove that it is in violation of constitution but I think most constitutions do not protect the freedom of lighting


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## wapkil (Jul 30, 2009)

f22shift said:


> back on topic, i noticed also that it's just 100w bulbs for now. what's to stop someone from using 2 lamps with 50w bulbs. is it a total full ban eventually?



Yes - this is the first step (AFAIK >=100W and all frosted), lower power bulbs will be next.


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## Siriuslite (Jul 30, 2009)

*From GE's website*

http://www.gelighting.com/na/home_lighting/ask_us/faq_compact.htm

*"Can I use a CFL in applications where I will be turning the lights on/off frequently?*
Compact fluorescent light bulbs work best if they are left on for over 15 minutes each time they are turned on. These types of lamps can take up to 3 minutes to warm-up. Warm-up will probably not be noticeable from a user stand point, but the lamp needs to warm-up in order to reach the point of most efficient operation. Frequently switching them on and off will shorten the life of the product. If the life of the lamp is shortened significantly, you will not reap the financial benefits (includes energy & life of lamp), that are common to CFL lamps."

So if you don't leave the lights on for at least 15 minutes, you don't save any energy (vs. incans) and you shorten the life of the bulbs. Pure genius

I have 7 light fixtures outside my house, all wired together. In my set up, only two of them are on full time, dusk to dawn, running at half wattage(60 watts for 2). A motion sensor turns them all on for security purposes for 10 minutes before shutting down the other 5 again. My motion sensor and timer (and others I have seen) state they're not for use with CFL's. My alternative now when the ban comes to Ontario is to run 7 - 15 watt CFL's all night long (or 105 watts), which nearly doubles my energy usage every night. Oh well, if that's what the government wants me to do to help save the environment, who I'm I to argue with logic?

(I been hoarding ever since the ban was announced. My lava won't work with CFL's)


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## Stress_Test (Jul 30, 2009)

If they would just hold off a few more years, then led technology would probably have the chance to catch up and be a viable replacement alternative. 

CREE is coming out with some impressive products that also have good CRI (90+). When they start using the new XP-G in an incan bulb direct replacement product, then they'll be sittin' pretty! :thumbsup:
.
.
.
IF they can bring the cost down!


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## jtr1962 (Jul 30, 2009)

Never mind-apparently this thread only exists to solicit similar opinions. Post removed by my own initiative prior to any contact by mods.


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## jtr1962 (Jul 30, 2009)

Stress_Test said:


> If they would just hold off a few more years, then led technology would probably have the chance to catch up and be a viable replacement alternative.
> 
> CREE is coming out with some impressive products that also have good CRI (90+). When they start using the new XP-G in an incan bulb direct replacement product, then they'll be sittin' pretty! :thumbsup:
> .
> ...


I agree on all points here but there's NO WAY a decent LED bulb is ever going to get as low in price as an incandescent. But then again it doesn't have to if it lasts 50 or 100 times as long and uses a fraction of the power. But we really need to get past this initial purchase price above all else mentality. I really think we should teach basic total cost of ownership calculations in grade school.


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## LuxLuthor (Jul 30, 2009)

jtr1962 said:


> Well, that's really what puzzles me here-why are we pushing CFLs over linear tubes? * Linear tubes are worlds better than CFLs in every way*-lifetime, economy, light distribution, light quality, tint consistency between lamps, etc. They're even dimmable over a good range with a decent dimming ballast. And they've been pretty good ever since the T8s came into common use about 20 years ago. I can't say enough good things about the 5000K high-CRI T8s I use in most of the house. *It's practically like artificial sunlight. And if I preferred incandescent-type light* I could just as easily use 3000K high CRI tubes. We've had the real answer in linear tubes right under our feet but we've failed to push it. Linear fixtures for 4-foot tubes meeting certain minimum quality guidelines should have been mandatory in new construction for at least the last decade. *Many people balk at replacing their fixtures to use linear tubes on account of the expense*, but if these fixtures were already in a house they bought they would use them. *It's not the incandescent bulb which needs to go so much as the whole screw-in lamp mentality. As big a fan as I've been of LEDs as the future of lighting, *when forced to meet the constraints of a lamp type more suited for incandescents they're going to have issues, especially with heat (at least until LEDs get a bit more efficient). So *what we should really be doing* is designing and selling flourescent and LED fixtures suited for residences rather than trying to shoehorn these technologies into existing fixtures. Sure, a CFL is a quick and dirty replacement for an incandescent which can offer big power savings. But it's far from optimal. A decent linear fixture is *far superior,* without any of the issues which plague CFL.
> 
> *While we seem to be having a CFL hatefest in these thread*, I should point out that a lot of the issues plaguing CFL, such as poor lifetime, flicker, or inconsistent tint, have more to do with the general public balking at the $15 to $20 these lamps would cost if done right. And even at those prices, a decent CFL would still save money in the long run. Also, why they continue to make these lamps with throw-away ballasts is beyond me. Make a quality ballast, charge more for the product, and design it so the lamp is easily replaceable. You might pay $20 for the initial purchase, but when the lamp goes, it'll only a be a buck to replace it (and the ballast won't be going into landfill). *Even a decent incandescent lamp would probably retail for $2 or more. Those $0.25 lamps mentioned earlier are in the same crap league as $1 CFLs. People I've talked to who use them have replaced them once a week or more.  Buying cheap crap, either incandescent or CFLs, is only going to cause grief.*
> 
> ...





jtr1962 said:


> I agree on all points here but there's NO WAY a decent LED bulb is ever going to get as low in price as an incandescent. But then again it doesn't have to if it lasts 50 or 100 times as long and uses a fraction of the power. *But we really need to get past this initial purchase price above all else mentality. I really think we should teach basic total cost of ownership calculations in grade school*.


I'll try reporting his post this time, which I again consider as the first post in thread which is obviously insulting, baiting, and opinionated & is an extension from this previous one where Robocop gave a very clear warning here, only to see him move and start same way again in this thread now.


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## cernobila (Jul 30, 2009)

jtr1962 said:


> I agree on all points here but there's NO WAY a decent LED bulb is ever going to get as low in price as an incandescent. But then again it doesn't have to if it lasts 50 or 100 times as long and uses a fraction of the power. But we really need to get past this initial purchase price above all else mentality. I really think we should teach basic total cost of ownership calculations in grade school.



For me it is not at all about cost, cost, cost. It is about the quality of the light itself. I wanted to embrace this propaganda about not using the incan lighting so I purchased a bunch of middle priced alternatives.......These lamps did not last very long, gave unpleasant light and I ended up spending a lot more money in the end than if I were to keep using the incan bulbs. Everyone I know complains mainly about the light quality and this is why I will wait till the technology will give us a much better product than we have been offered so far........btw, the best way to get people to embrace something is to encourage them by telling the truth and lead by example,.........not by force.


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## TheInvader (Jul 30, 2009)

Here in the States, I haven't seen anyone buying bulbs at ALL. LED bulbs won't make it unless SSC or CREE get their arses going. 
My whole house is CFL and I *HATE* the annoying warm, almost orange, blinding light that the bulbs make. It would be a breath of fresh air to see a cold light. Anyone have a recommendation for an almost pure white, cold CFL? The wife would slap me if she caught me buying incans again.


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## copperfox (Jul 30, 2009)

TheInvader, Home Depot sells a CFL with color tint of "daylight" that I find quite cold white. Actually it's a little too cold for my tastes, but you might like it. I forget what brand it was.


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## Guy's Dropper (Jul 30, 2009)

Better get ready for the start of an illegal underground light bulb trade...


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## blasterman (Jul 30, 2009)

While I don't always agree with jtr1962 (that's not a bad thing), I didn't see anything in his post that was deraguatory. 



> Wow...glad I live in the USA...we're not banning them


 
The Germans aren't behaving any differently than how U.S. consumers would/will respond given the *same situation*. They defend their right to to drive their car to the local big box store and stock up on 900 hour bulbs so that when they burn out we can just toss them in the trash. 

When I am forced to buy Incans, I get commercial grade clear ones from 1000bulbs, and at $.75 each I'm getting 8000-10,000 hours from them. *How long* does your typical local big box Incan some of you are defending last again? At least supply me with Neodymium glasses when I go to your house. Or, at least invest in Solux bulbs so I don't feel like I'm in a 1978 highschool gymnasium.



> With the incredibly complex circuitry in CFLs, I've got to wonder about their real cradle to grave greenness


 
Not 'complex', just usually cheap and not dependable. And in all fairness *the same rules apply* for cheap Chinese LED drivers stuffed into MR-16 and standard base retrofit bulbs; Their reliability is questionable, along with efficiency. 

I've got a love/hate view on CFLs. While I don't hate them as much as some of you, I certainly don't see them as the commercial panacea that they are made out to be. I bounce a 2700k and 4100k CFL into a large Photographic umbrella on a stand, and as a room light it defies *anything* I see an Incan capable of. A 100watt Incan -or- Halogen will consume more power and not fill nearly that much space with enveloping light.



> They are halogen and a third more efficient.


 
(story problem) : Bob swaps out all his 75-watt Incans in his recessed lighting in his McMansion for 75-watt HIR halogens. How much energy does he save? Answer: none -both use the same amount of power. While Halogen produces more light and higher color temps than standard incan, it doesn't save power unless you are significantly using a low wattage bulb, and that's rarely the case.



> Warm 90 CRI T8 fluorescent bulbs on the other hand are way better


 
The 'fluorescent is better than CFL' arguement loses credibility when you stop talking about fixture and ballast durability. Unless you can provide proof to the contrary, the illumination technology and phosphors used are practically *identical* between CFL and standard linear tubes*.* Going through most online lighting stores shows that CFLs are running about an average CRI of 80, while fluorescent tubes range from 60-90 depending on just how cheap you want them. While a CRI of 90 is preferable over a CRI of 80, especially over dining areas, I dare so the majority of fluorescent tubes in public locations on the planet *ain't +90 CRI.* So, the short form is CFLs 'suck' because of their cheap, Chinese integrated ballast - no arguement. But, a CFL and linear tube with similiar CRI and color temp will produce virtually identical light quality. However, Bi-Pin CFLs match the durability of commercial fluorescent tubes and *already* have displaced Incan/Halogen in countless commercial applications. 



> My alternative now when the ban comes to Ontario is to run 7 - 15 watt CFL's all night long (or 105 watts),


 
Most out-door security lighting I see uses HPS, or +400watt HID, neither of which do well when turned constantly on/off. The obnoxious +40watt +5000k CFLs I have on my front porch run automatically with a dusk/dawn sensor and are visible over 1-mile away. I'm planning on replacing those with 2000lumen Bridgelux to save power *and* be even more obnoxious.



> Many people balk at replacing their fixtures to use linear tubes on account of the expense, but if these fixtures were already in a house they bought they would use them


 
Like, having recessed lighting already incorporate Bi-Pin Fl fixtures when the home was built? This would mean Bob the contractor would have to buy something other than the same drop cans he's been using since houses were built 40 frikken years ago  Can't have that now can we.



> Everyone I know complains mainly about the light quality and this is why I will wait till the technology will give us a much better product


 
In regards to what? LED or CFL? I've yet to see a negative review regarding the light quality of Cree's commercial LED fixtures, and good, warm-white fluorescent tubes and bi-pins work fine for restaurants. 

While I agree the ban on standard Incans is a bit absurd, the counter arguement doesn't impress me either. 



> Home Depot sells a CFL with color tint of "daylight" that I find quite cold white


 
Low CRI, daylight temp CFLs have terrible color and there's nothing 'full spectrum' about them.The hypocrisy is I've seen more than a few forum members put down this type of light and then defend the light quality of cool white LED's simply because they have high 'neato factor'.


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## lctorana (Jul 31, 2009)

From what I hear on the grapevine, the Australian experience is similar to the German one. Lots of people stockpiling.


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## xenonk (Jul 31, 2009)

I'd be concerned about thermal management when using a high power LED module in an insulated incandescent fixture. All such LED modules I've seen are fraught with sudden infant death syndrome and other life expectancy issues.



Stress_Test said:


> CREE is coming out with some impressive products that also have good CRI (90+). When they start using the new XP-G in an incan bulb direct replacement product, then they'll be sittin' pretty! :thumbsup:


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## DM51 (Jul 31, 2009)

jtr1962 said:


> Never mind-apparently this thread only exists to solicit similar opinions. Post removed by my own initiative prior to any contact by mods.


The removal of a post in this way does not wholly mitigate the original offense that may have been given. 

A person aiming to stir up trouble will sometimes make a provocative post and leave it there just long enough to annoy people, removing it before any intervention is possible from forum staff. Often, no evidence remains of the original offense; however this tactic can come unstuck if the post is quoted by another member, as has happened here. It is plain to see that your post was blatantly provocative and offensive.

The word that best sums up your intervention in this thread is “trolling”. You were previously warned about this elsewhere, but unfortunately it seems the warning was ineffective. There will therefore be an interval of a few days while you take some time away from CPF to rethink your attitude.


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## IMSabbel (Jul 31, 2009)

I wont say what i think because i know this subforum, and the mod in here, good enough to know that it wont do any good.

Dont waste your efforts jtr, spend them elsewhere.


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## nzgunnie (Jul 31, 2009)

Our left wing, Green controlled govt announced a ban on incan bulbs about 18 months ago.

It then lost the election and the new govt repealed the ban.

Yay - no more ban for NZ.


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## Light Sabre (Jul 31, 2009)

TheInvader said:


> Here in the States, I haven't seen anyone buying bulbs at ALL. LED bulbs won't make it unless SSC or CREE get their arses going.
> My whole house is CFL and I *HATE* the annoying warm, almost orange, blinding light that the bulbs make. It would be a breath of fresh air to see a cold light. Anyone have a recommendation for an almost pure white, cold CFL? The wife would slap me if she caught me buying incans again.


 
I was using 3500K CFL's, but they were too yellow for me. I switched all my 3500K CFL's to GE Energy Smart Cool White 4100K bulbs. The light output is as pure a white as your gonna get. They are kinda hard to find. I got mine from Target. I would suggest that you buy one package and see if you like them. They are the instant on type, not dimmable, and not for use outdoors or in enclosed light fixtures.

The numbers on the package for the 60W equivalent are:

RES. #4749167
PLGT32CW15W
PC: 74445
Desc: FLE15HT3/2CW2PW

UPC: 0-43168-74445-4

950 lumens, 15 watts, life 8000 hours, 2 bulbs per pkg.


*WARNING:* If you or anyone in your household is dealing with depression, then you may want to either not use these CFL's or only use them in indirect lighting (light fixtures that point towards the ceiling). I'm dealing with depression and I went bonkers a week or so after installing them. I loved the pure white color so I had all my lights turned on. Instead of 15 minute light therapy once a day, it became full time light therapy. Way way too stimulating. Had to cut my meds back quite a bit. So now I just use the indirect lamps that I have and I'm doing fine.


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## LuxLuthor (Jul 31, 2009)

Light Sabre said:


> I was using 3500K CFL's, but they were too yellow for me. I switched all my 3500K CFL's to GE Energy Smart Cool White 4100K bulbs. The light output is as pure a white as your gonna get. They are kinda hard to find. I got mine from Target. I would suggest that you buy one package and see if you like them. They are the instant on type, not dimmable, and not for use outdoors or in enclosed light fixtures.
> 
> The numbers on the package for the 60W equivalent are:
> 
> ...



Very interesting information, thanks for sharing something so personal. I know a lot of research has been done about the effect of various colors in the environment, as well as effects of light spectrum ranges on plants, animals, people. Look at this google search of *color light therapy*. I know it is hard to do an objective double blind study, but off the top of my head, it seems the best designed way to approach double blind light spectrum tests (no pun intended) would be to find totally blind people.

This study looked at another retinal receptor in people who have no cones or rods, but do have another type of receptor most sensitive in the 480nm range, and thought to affect circadian rhythms.

It would be fascinating to test a statistically significant collection of both securely blindfolded normal sight, and blind people to see if there is any reported observations from being put in rooms painted different colors. Then also the effects of their being illuminated with specific colored light sources of narrow bandwidth ranges, as well as wider (more complete) spectrum ranges, while blocking IR heat clues. 

You might be able to also test people's functional performance at various tasks when under different kinds of lighting. In any case, there are likely functional/rational reasons that people want to preserve their current light sources that is underscored by the OP linked story.


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## [email protected] (Aug 1, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> Very interesting information, thanks for sharing something so personal. I know a lot of research has been done about the effect of various colors in the environment, as well as effects of light spectrum ranges on plants, animals, people. Look at this google search of *color light therapy*. I know it is hard to do an objective double blind study, but off the top of my head, it seems the best designed way to approach double blind light spectrum tests (no pun intended) would be to find totally blind people.
> 
> This study looked at another retinal receptor in people who have no cones or rods, but do have another type of receptor most sensitive in the 480nm range, and thought to affect circadian rhythms.
> 
> ...



Moral of the story: buy a2's and onion rings and blast yourself regularly with different colours.


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## Bimmerboy (Aug 1, 2009)

IMSabbel said:


> I wont say what i think because i know this subforum, and the mod in here, good enough to know that it wont do any good.
> 
> Dont waste your efforts jtr, spend them elsewhere.


I'm not sure what I find more offensive... besmirching a great mod and forum, or that we're supposed to not notice you just said exactly what you think.



nzgunnie said:


> Our left wing, Green controlled govt announced a ban on incan bulbs about 18 months ago.
> 
> It then lost the election and the new govt repealed the ban.
> 
> Yay - no more ban for NZ.


Excellent! Always glad to hear when sanity wins.

I've recently begun a little hoarding as well. Perhaps it's the German in me?... lol.


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## ZMZ67 (Aug 1, 2009)

cernobila said:


> For me it is not at all about cost, cost, cost. It is about the quality of the light itself. I wanted to embrace this propaganda about not using the incan lighting so I purchased a bunch of middle priced alternatives.......These lamps did not last very long, gave unpleasant light and I ended up spending a lot more money in the end than if I were to keep using the incan bulbs. Everyone I know complains mainly about the light quality and this is why I will wait till the technology will give us a much better product than we have been offered so far........btw, the best way to get people to embrace something is to encourage them by telling the truth and lead by example,.........not by force.


 
Nicely said.I can live with the light quality from CFLs to some extent but I find that they do not hold up as well as advertised.Considering the hazardous content of these bulbs and the fact that some will inevitably end up in landfills instead of being recycled I think thier value is being oversold to the general public.


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## Icebreak (Aug 1, 2009)

Great Thread. Lots of knowledge here.




[email protected] said:


> If you want fresh Australian incan bulbs just give me a buzz :devil:. I feel sorry for you guys. Are these still okay in Europe?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I want to find a US Source for these. They look interesting.




blasterman said:


> When I am forced to buy Incans, I get commercial grade clear ones from 1000bulbs, and at $.75 each I'm getting 8000-10,000 hours from them. *How long* does your typical local big box Incan some of you are defending last again? At least supply me with Neodymium glasses when I go to your house. Or, at least invest in Solux bulbs so I don't feel like I'm in a 1978 highschool gymnasium.



I've used something I think was like these and I remember that I like them. I should get some more while I still can.



LuxLuthor said:


> This made my day...snip
> 
> 
> 
> > *And then, of course, there's the issue of the light the bulbs emit. Many complain that the lights are just not bright enough and that they falsify colors. The Hamburger Kunsthalle, for example, recently made a bulk order for 600 incandescent light bulbs to make sure that it can keep illuminating the works it displays in the time-honored way.*



LuxLuthor -

I posted a couple of photos from a gallery I was in Thursday. I need to go back and give credit to the gallery. In speaking with the owner, who is by trade a lighting engineer with a career that existed mostly on broadway, it seems that some galleries do know what they are doing and others don't. She will never have anything but incandescent lighting in her store. She's pleased that she gets a lot of outside light and fancies the art changing a little each day. The building has some very old recessed fluorescent banks that are never turned on. She was a jewel to speak with. I'm certain you would have gotten on swimmingly.

Here's her little shop: http://www.bluemoonartgallery.com/

And below are two of the photos from another thread about incandescent photographs:



Icebreak said:


> Incandescent light with exterior light during thunderstorm.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## alpg88 (Aug 1, 2009)

wow, looks like political move rather than anything else.


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## [email protected] (Aug 1, 2009)

I've been paying more attention to light installations whereever I go since reading this thread. Outdoors it's a mix of both kinds of sodium and metal halide. Indoors however, in public indoor spaces almost exclusively halogen downlights. There must be a reason for this... There is an interesting exception. There was a place where I went for a exam. (melbourne exhibition building). There main lights there are a mix of low pressure sodium and high pressure sodium. And on the sides of the building there was red filtered halogen floodlights. Even in our school where they use linear tubes they use a mix of warm white and cool white.


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## rdunk77 (Aug 1, 2009)

First, I'm usually just a lurker but the characterization of DM51 was completely uncalled for. DM51, your contributions to this forum have taught me a great deal. Thank you for all those efforts & sharing the knowledge. It's hard for me to imagine any CPF member supporting any restriction on our choice of lighting technology by Big Brother. Which of the particulars even matter? Color temp, output level, efficiency, reliability? Someone please clue me in as to which of these is more important than our freedom to choose. Life, liberty, & the pursuit of happiness used to be important in this society. That's why we fired King George! Give me freedom or give me death!


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## [email protected] (Aug 1, 2009)

rdunk77 said:


> First, I'm usually just a lurker but the characterization of DM51 was completely uncalled for. DM51, your contributions to this forum have taught me a great deal. Thank you for all those efforts & sharing the knowledge. It's hard for me to imagine any CPF member supporting any restriction on our choice of lighting technology by Big Brother. Which of the particulars even matter? Color temp, output level, efficiency, reliability? Someone please clue me in as to which of these is more important than our freedom to choose. Life, liberty, & the pursuit of happiness used to be important in this society. That's why we fired King George! Give me freedom or give me death!



Right on. Now we have a choice of low efficency or low quality light/mercury. As soon as high power, high cri and low cost LED light bulbs in range of different tints hopefully everything will be fine. But until that's out of the unobtainium stage, I want my incans!


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## [email protected] (Aug 2, 2009)

lctorana said:


> From what I hear on the grapevine, the Australian experience is similar to the German one. Lots of people stockpiling.



I did notice a bulb exchange program in operation recently though we didn't bother as our home is 100% CFL and has been for some time (FWIW we did notice a reduction in electricity costs), as for disposal of the expired toxic CFLs our local council has designated a free drop off point :thumbsup:

The only incandescent I've been purchasing in the past year has been 50w Osrams for my Maglight and though I suppose these too will eventually go out of circulation I've already secured an alternative 12v bi pin source (namely automotive)


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## rdunk77 (Aug 2, 2009)

I also have many CFLs in use. However, I use incans in my theater. Sometimes I want them on but with very low power output. How can you do that with a CFL? It's a shame that some are so disrespectful of others that they want the government to take that choice away. Maybe someone can point out three things the government has done well? Methinks they're a bunch of knuckleheads with zero accountability for their actions.


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## LuxLuthor (Aug 2, 2009)

Theater? You have a theater? I'm jealous! I always wanted to set up an ultra-deluxe theater big screen with uber surround sound, but I would have to move to a new home to do it right.

I think eventually they will figure out more effective and efficient workable technologies that include a quality dimming feature. The objection many have is the strategy of banning lights with features we have now and enjoy before adequate replacements are here.

The banning proponents claim the initial costs of the new technologies will not get developed, and not work by capitalist competitive market forces, since incands are cheap and fixtures are in place. I understand that logic, but I also point to the success of the "Cash for guns," and "Cash for Clunkers" and various other tax deductable/tax credit programs as more effective motivators for desired actions. I installed a new AC system for several rooms in part because of the Tax Credit program.

When they offered cash for turning in your guns, people came forth freely, and they had to stop the program because they ran out of funds. When they talk about banning guns/assault rifles/ammo, people race to buy 10 times more than they need. Go figure.

I'm not saying I agree/disagree with various "positive reinforcement" programs, rather I'm just pointing to the difference in how to get things done by providing motivations that give people a real choice. Growing up in Catholic schools, I know when they use the banning, punitive strategies of domination, it rarely works. The pro-government/regulation approach demonstrates a profound misunderstanding of human behavior as you are seeing in Germany on OP incand issue.


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## Light Sabre (Aug 2, 2009)

CFL's can't be used to replace all incans. For example: enclosed light fixtures. They kill CFLs. Here at my apartment complex they installed new fancy hallway fixtures. They had incans in them at first, then switched to all CFL's. The CFL's are not faring well at all since the light fixture is completely enclosed. They have used probably about 10 times as many CFL's as they would have if they left incans in there. The fixtures have sockets for 3 lamps. They put in 3 CFL's and that was a disaster. I have noticed in the last few weeks, that they're only putting 2 in them now. I think that they're holding up somewhat better. It's too soon to tell yet.


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## [email protected] (Aug 2, 2009)

rdunk77 said:


> I also have many CFLs in use. However, I use incans in my theater. Sometimes I want them on but with very low power output. How can you do that with a CFL?



Use specially designed dimmable CFL bulbs Philips Tornado Dimmable as used by Greater Union Cinemas Australia for exactly the purpose you intend, they can be wound down to about 20% output :thumbsup:

*+1* on the home theater envy! :devil:


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## Flashfirstask?later (Aug 2, 2009)

Siriuslite said:


> *From GE's website*
> 
> http://www.gelighting.com/na/home_lighting/ask_us/faq_compact.htm
> 
> ...


There are downside to these CFL's as mentioned. Many not able to be used with dimmers bugs me. Sucks when many lights may only be used briefly and not for more then a few minutes and long enough to be used effectively at 15+ minutes. 

I recently saw a Canadian news report on TV discussing two issues with CFL's and whether there was acknowledgment by the appropriate Canadian authorities. One was the interference causing some to get sick or headaches and either needed to switch back to incandescent or use some devices to reduce the interference. The other was some people were finding out they were very sensitive to the uv radiation from the CFL to the point of having a very serious sunburn on face or neck after only a few minutes of sitting by a lamp with a CFL bulb.

A issue for Canadians living in places where they have long and or cold winters is that they were often using more electricity/gas to heat their homes when CFL's were only or primarily used as the incandescent bulbs helped provide some heat in the rooms. The CFL bulbs of course were made for the warmer climates in mind as they produce little heat compared to incandescent bulbs.



Canada is banning them by 2012 so one does not need to hoard right away...


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## n4zov (Aug 8, 2009)

Every member state of the EU voted itself in, so I assume their membership reflects the majority wishes of the residents. Maybe the citizens should have thoughts about what joining meant to their individual freedoms before allowing their governments to vote them in. Incandescent bulbs are probably not the last thing they will be giving up for the collective "good."


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## wapkil (Aug 8, 2009)

n4zov said:


> Every member state of the EU voted itself in, so I assume their membership reflects the majority wishes of the residents. Maybe the citizens should have thoughts about what joining meant to their individual freedoms before allowing their governments to vote them in. Incandescent bulbs are probably not the last thing they will be giving up for the collective "good."



It is not in any way an EU-specific topic. As you may have noted from reading this thread, the ban is or will be introduces in the USA, Canada, Australia and who knows where else. For some reason, the idea seems to be quite popular.


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## divine (Aug 8, 2009)

The federal government is trying to push the Energy Conservation Code to each state... Depending on how strict the state is, the Energy Conservation Code makes it difficult to get commercial building permits with incandescent lights.

Right now, practically all office type businesses have a 1 watt per square foot limit on their lighting. Simply changing all the lights to fluorescent doesn't solve the problem either.

You know one thing I am thankful for? MR16's, that reflector saves me from saying, "There's no way you can use incandescent." How much wasted light there is on most A19 fixtures is pretty disappointing.

What was the last flashlight you saw where no effort was made to direct the light out the front?


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## cernobila (Aug 9, 2009)

wapkil said:


> It is not in any way an EU-specific topic. As you may have noted from reading this thread, the ban is or will be introduces in the USA, Canada, Australia and who knows where else. For some reason, the idea seems to be quite popular.



Most people don’t think about any issues in detail, they listen to what the government is saying, in turn the government is listening to the lobbyists representing industry as well as environmentalist groups. What wins is; what makes money and in theory will cut down on carbon emissions. The fact that the solution may create other serious environmental problems is not advertised to the general public......Result is that the government looks like they are doing something positive and the public is happy with that.


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## LuxLuthor (Aug 9, 2009)

cernobila said:


> Most people don’t think about any issues in detail, they listen to what the government is saying, in turn the government is listening to the lobbyists representing industry as well as environmentalist groups. What wins is; what makes money and in theory will cut down on carbon emissions. The fact that the solution may create other serious environmental problems is not advertised to the general public......Result is that the government looks like they are doing something positive and the public is happy with that.



While that's true, it's even worse than that. People don't even question the validity of man-made carbon emission issue causing environmental problems, upon which all the regulatory "energy efficiency" nonsense is based. There is an overwhelming amount of legitimate scientific evidence to suggest the man-made carbon in the atmosphere is irrelevant relative to other factors.

People hoarding incands is a behavioral problem in response to a threat of them being banned by regulatory goons.


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## John_Galt (Aug 9, 2009)

You know, I really can't blame them. If there is a ban here in the states, my parents will definitely do the same thing. And I will too. 
I absolutely hate CFL's, especially when you're in the store, and some mindless buffoon comes up to you as you are looking for lightbulbs and tells you to buy CFL's for every light in our house, to save the planet from CO2 emmissions. 
I especially enjoy seeing said buffoon stop listening to you, and tell you that you know nothing of man-made climate change, or the environment, when you try to explain that the mercury in these bulbs is much worse than you breathing. Or driving your car. Idiot...:shakehead:scowl: (Actually happened a few days ago. My dad and I were at Home Depot getting some stuff; things that make you hate other people.)


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## [email protected] (Aug 10, 2009)

Less pollution can't be a bad thing, but we shouldn't write off less efficient technology without first examining it's ability to be improved upon (ie Osrams ES [energy saving] halogen lamps) & it's rivals long term effect on the environment :thumbsup:


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## EntropyQ3 (Aug 10, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> While that's true, it's even worse than that. People don't even question the validity of man-made carbon emission issue causing environmental problems, upon which all the regulatory "energy efficiency" nonsense is based. There is an overwhelming amount of legitimate scientific evidence to suggest the man-made carbon in the atmosphere is irrelevant relative to other factors.


 

Overwhelming amount?
If jtr1962 was put on a leach because saying that we have a real problem with our ancient fixture infrastruction was considered "trolling", I don't know what kind of punishment the above statement deserves. Total ban off the internet?


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## ampdude (Aug 10, 2009)

I fear this will come to the USA in the form of a new environmental bill. Since governments are no longer beholden to the people and the people are the slaves of their governments, it will likely pass.

Everytime I'm in Walmart these days I make sure and do two things, stop by the ammo counter, and pick up a few light bulbs.


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## [email protected] (Aug 10, 2009)

John_Galt said:


> *If there is a ban here in the states*, my parents will definitely do the same thing. And I will too.





ampdude said:


> *I fear this will come to the USA* in the form of a new environmental bill.




Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007 OR specifically H.R.6 - SEC. 315. IMPROVED ENERGY EFFICIENCY FOR APPLIANCES AND BUILDINGS IN COLD CLIMATES. :thumbsup:


There's a lot of Government/legalese waffle to wade through but the general concept is for the ban of incandescent bulbs between 40~150w that don't exhibit a 30% efficiency improvement to achieve *45 Lumens per watt* by 2014 (with a backstop requirement of 2020), both Philips & Osram (see below) have already developed improved efficiency incandescent bulbs to compete with CFLs 








_Osram Halogen (Energy Saver) ES lamp_


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## turbodog (Aug 10, 2009)

TheInvader said:


> Here in the States, I haven't seen anyone buying bulbs at ALL. LED bulbs won't make it unless SSC or CREE get their arses going.
> My whole house is CFL and I *HATE* the annoying warm, almost orange, blinding light that the bulbs make. It would be a breath of fresh air to see a cold light. Anyone have a recommendation for an almost pure white, cold CFL? The wife would slap me if she caught me buying incans again.



I bought a LOT of bulbs from http://www.lightbulbsdirect.com/

I use the 13w 4100k/4200k spiral screw in bulb for my fixtures/etc. They are instant starting, long lasting, and from what I can tell take no time to warm up and produce full output.

Do NOT screw them in when the fixture is on. I used to do this when replacing a bulb in the hallway. Never could figure out why the bulbs didn't last. Finally got it after going through about 5-6 bulbs.


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## jayflash (Aug 10, 2009)

The newer CFLs I've purchased are an improvement over some older ones. Hopefully, soon, we will be able the buy almost any CFL with confidence they will last, light quickly, and be dimable at low cost.


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## js (Aug 10, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> While that's true, it's even worse than that. People don't even question the validity of man-made carbon emission issue causing environmental problems, upon which all the regulatory "energy efficiency" nonsense is based. There is an overwhelming amount of legitimate scientific evidence to suggest the man-made carbon in the atmosphere is irrelevant relative to other factors.
> 
> People hoarding incands is a behavioral problem in response to a threat of them being banned by regulatory goons.



If you want to argue about such things, Lux, please take it to the underground. I highly recommend that you do so, in fact! Please consider it.

But, this is not the place for such a discussion as someone has already noticed.

'nuff said.


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## Fred S (Aug 11, 2009)

we have had CFL's for at least 3 years, we know the light isnt real good quality, but now we don't even notice. CO2 emissions did not drive our choice to switch, just saving $$. Best we can tell we save about $10-15/mo on the CFL's (we have a lot of them). This is only about a 4% savings, but whatever. Now I can run my AC @ 70 instead of 72


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## lctorana (Aug 11, 2009)

Fred S said:


> Now I can run my AC @ 70 instead of 72


What does that mean?


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## xenonk (Aug 11, 2009)

lctorana said:


> What does that mean?


Air conditioning, degrees Fahrenheit.


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## tsask (Aug 11, 2009)

Light Sabre said:


> *WARNING:* If you or anyone in your household is dealing with depression, then you may want to either not use these CFL's or only use them in indirect lighting (light fixtures that point towards the ceiling). I'm dealing with depression and I went bonkers a week or so after installing them. I loved the pure white color so I had all my lights turned on. Instead of 15 minute light therapy once a day, it became full time light therapy. Way way too stimulating. Had to cut my meds back quite a bit. So now I just use the indirect lamps that I have and I'm doing fine.


 
You might want to try a good dose of 532nm GREEN LED indirect light.


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## lolzertank (Aug 11, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007 OR specifically H.R.6 - SEC. 315. IMPROVED ENERGY EFFICIENCY FOR APPLIANCES AND BUILDINGS IN COLD CLIMATES. :thumbsup:
> 
> 
> There's a lot of Government/legalese waffle to wade through but the general concept is for the ban of incandescent bulbs between 40~150w that don't exhibit a 30% efficiency improvement to achieve *45 Lumens per watt* by 2014 (with a backstop requirement of 2020), both Philips & Osram (see below) have already developed improved efficiency incandescent bulbs to compete with CFLs
> ...



Prices of the very efficient Osram IRC bulbs are actually higher than CFLs so unless it's just a lack of demand, halogens are going to be doomed too.


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## LuxLuthor (Aug 11, 2009)

lolzertank said:


> Prices of the very efficient Osram IRC bulbs are actually higher than CFLs so unless it's just a lack of demand, halogens are going to be doomed too.



I see the Osram halogen IRC example as more of a proof of concept where they added the internal reflectance layer to dramatically increase efficiency. That specific technology has not been fully developed in terms of filament alloys, types of IR coatings, types of gases, etc. It is a beautiful incand bulb, where Osram pulled out all the stops in its design...but has not yet been made for larger scale/variety wattage applications. It could easily be expanded upon.


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## lctorana (Aug 11, 2009)

lolzertank said:


> ...so unless it's just a lack of demand, halogens are going to be doomed too.


 
Agreed. Time to stock up on these, too. Thanks for the tip!


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## cernobila (Aug 12, 2009)

On the TV news last night, the Germans are not the only ones, apparently people in most Western countries are doing the same......not happy with the light quality, effect on moods at home and work place, cost, creating new environmental problems etc. I think there is a long way to go before we will give up our Incans.


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## lctorana (Aug 12, 2009)

cernobila said:


> On the TV news last night, the Germans are not the only ones, apparently people in most Western countries are doing the same......not happy with the light quality, effect on moods at home and work place, cost, creating new environmental problems etc. I think there is a long way to go before we will give up our Incans.


I've certainly stocked up, but I'm honest enough to admit it's for none of those reasons.


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## Icebreak (Aug 12, 2009)

lolzertank -

I hope it isn't doomed. I still haven't had a chance to try one yet.

If any kind of light is doomed I hope it is because of demand and not over governmental regulation. Incandescents serve so well in so many applications. If a competing light comes a long that can deliver the banquet of spectrum, the symphony of light that causes one to drop one's jaw over the power of a painting, causes one to seek an extra breath when an extraordinarily beautiful woman enters the room and causes us all to go full-goose Homer over pastries, "Mmmm Donuts"; I'll take a look.

Until that time, If the package says 88 cents or less for a four pack the little dumplins come home with me.


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## Icebreak (Aug 12, 2009)

LuxLuthor -

I was looking for some of those halogens and came across these ongoing experiments. One looks to be destructive in nature. Another is looking at longevity. There are four running experiments between CFLs and Incandescents. With your, well heck it looks like everybody here actually; scientific training in rigorous scientific structure, you guys might find it of some interest. 

I just peeked at it so I don't know if it is an 11 year old goofing around or an adult but the graphic displays and the running lamp cams kinda got my attention.

http://bmb.lcd.lu/

http://bmb.lcd.lu/miscellaneous/experiment3/index.html


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## yellow (Aug 12, 2009)

its the typical short-term quick and silly decision, our politicians are known for...
* ban some "power wasting" bulb, but the 5-10W multibulb 12V Halogen lamps - adding to 200+ W usually - will remain.
& how about all the added pollution with the new bulbs?

& that all Europe seems to waste much more energy, f.e. with installation of air conditioning? 
(and - that short critics must be allowed - americans running theirs way too cool!)
that high dran applications (TV, water heaters, ...) often run without reason ...

Imagine air conditioning being set 1 deg. higher, or ice machines/drink dispensers, ..., being placed in shadow, not full sun (which is often the way at gas stations). That less energy might make up for more savings, that the bulbs will give.


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## [email protected] (Aug 12, 2009)

lolzertank said:


> Prices of the very efficient Osram IRC bulbs are actually higher than CFLs so unless it's just a lack of demand, halogens are going to be doomed too.





I was in one of our local supermarkets tonight (Coles) and noted a decent selection of the Osram ES bulbs, I think once people learn they can save the planet without having to sacrifice the warm colour output of the incandescent bulb then they can make an 'informed' choice :thumbsup: 

This isn't a one horse race... Philips have also developed an improved efficiency incandescent bulb (Halogena) I'm sure there will be other manufacturers to follow their lead, relatively new technology they achieve a 30% efficiency improvement over the original incandescent lamps (not as efficient/cheap as CFLs yet), best of all is these new incandescent lamps are dimmable :candle:










cernobila said:


> On the TV news last night, the Germans are not the only ones, apparently people in most Western countries are doing the same......not happy with the light quality, effect on moods at home and work place, cost, creating new environmental problems etc. *I think there is a long way to go before we will give up our Incans.*



Well I hate to be the one to break it to ya' but seeing as you also live in the first Country in the world to completely phase out (read as ban) incandescent bulbs by 2010 you're either going to have to get on the Osram/Philips wagon or be swept away into the CFL abyss! 

FWIW I'm happy with the CFL's I currently have employed, but I have noticed some of the cheaper (Mirabella) offerings don't last the distance so I may give some of these Osram ES bulbs a go in selected home applications :thumbsup:


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## js (Aug 12, 2009)

I agree with Lux about the Osram IRC bulbs. They are proof of concept lamps, and are a no-holds-barred high-quality low-volume item. They have platinum coating on the lamp pins! And the return wire for the axial filament goes down _through the coil_. They are a freaking wonder of bulb construction!

But . . . this means they are obviously not optimized for cost per unit. At this point it's unlikely the IRC technology will ever be optimized for volume production and energy savings, but it's too bad. They give off a wonderful light and are relatively energy efficient (vs. common household lamps anyway). It would be a nice alternative for those who prefer incandescent light sources and who also wanted better efficiency (or needed to comply with some law or other regarding efficiency).

Ah well. Such is life.


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## yellow (Aug 12, 2009)

wrong!
100s are already gone here (or about to be banned, havent bought any bulbs in years),
80, 60 by the end of year (if thats the plan, not sure on this)
in the end _maybe_ 20, 10 and 5 W will remain,


so these nice looking, but more-energy-wasting-than-60/80W-bulb multiple 5-10-20 W lamps will remain:


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## LuxLuthor (Aug 12, 2009)

Icebreak said:


> LuxLuthor -
> 
> I was looking for some of those halogens and came across these ongoing experiments. One looks to be destructive in nature. Another is looking at longevity. There are four running experiments between CFLs and Incandescents. With your, well heck it looks like everybody here actually; scientific training in rigorous scientific structure, you guys might find it of some interest.
> 
> ...



I read through all his pages, and while noble...he is really testing the number of on/off cycles using about a minute each for on & off before various models fail...but there is no description in attempting to control realistic variables.

There are some instances where he is fiddling with the PCB board of the CFL, and reusing old bulbs (test #5) which is nearly useless, and highly unlikely to still be running since May. More likely, he lost interest and has not updated the webpage of test #5.

There is not enough description of the rigor of his techniques and methods to control extraneous variables to see this as anything more than a fun high school science project. First thing I looked for was what kind of electicity stabilization & conditioning was he using to prevent power drops and spikes? A more realistic on/off use pattern would have been more interesting, but it did underscore the intolerance of on/off cycles for CFL's. His cost analysis of Experiment #1 is flawed, but points to the higher total cost to the consumer of CFL.


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## LuxLuthor (Aug 12, 2009)

yellow said:


> wrong!
> 100s are already gone here (or about to be banned, havent bought any bulbs in years),
> 80, 60 by the end of year (if thats the plan, not sure on this)
> in the end _maybe_ 20, 10 and 5 W will remain,
> ...



Yellow, I was just checking on your profile location, and was admiring this 360 flash here. I wonder if all those people in the theater realized they were being preserved in posterity. What happens in the Gemeinderat ? Have you been in that Casino?


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## Icebreak (Aug 12, 2009)

Thanks for the look, LuxLuthor. Not such valuable work by the lad, yes I see that now.

There's some illness I have that causes me to obsess over an exploded incandescent lamp. I go a little ga ga over it. I want to know what happened. How was it treated. Was it ignored as child.

Thanks again for the eval of the site.


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## Icebreak (Aug 12, 2009)

yellow said:


>



For goodness sakes that's just beautiful...just beautiful. Wow.


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## lolzertank (Aug 12, 2009)

lctorana said:


> Agreed. Time to stock up on these, too. Thanks for the tip!





Icebreak said:


> lolzertank -
> 
> I hope it isn't doomed. I still haven't had a chance to try one yet.
> 
> ...



I didn't mean doomed in the sense that no one can buy them anymore, but I think they won't be able to stave off CFLs in Average Joe's home if they're $5 a piece compared to the $1 CFLs. Incandescent bulb's greatest advantage going back to haunt themselves... 

Obviously, if Phillips and Osram manage to drop the price to something close to today's incans, everything should be fine.


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## yellow (Aug 13, 2009)

> For goodness sakes that's just beautiful...just beautiful. Wow.


agree 100%
... but thats 10 times a 20 W Halogen bulb --> 200 W
and they wont be banned anyway, so if the main intention for the ban is to force the ppl to use flourescents ...



a bit OT, ...


> Yellow, I was just checking on your profile location, and ...


usage of pictures has some law regulations here, but in reality ... 
(if You wonder about the "Theater"-ppl, how about "Strandbad"?)  

That "gemeinderat" shows a room I dont know, looks like some ancient Justice place. "Gemeinderat" itself is the lowest bureaucracy institution, town government level. The room might be used for representative purposes but not in real (not even we Austrians are _this_ behind) 
Baden ist a nice small City, loacted near the Capital Vienna. Very nice to live and still good access to the more important surroundings.


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## MFS1589 (Aug 13, 2009)

lctorana said:


> I've certainly stocked up, but I'm honest enough to admit it's for none of those reasons.



Same here, I bough a few more than I need now, not a stockpile by any means but I did it out of preference as I prefer the tone of the incan lights.


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## Icebreak (Aug 13, 2009)

Over poster!


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## js (Aug 13, 2009)

Icebreak said:


> Over poster!



Errr. . . . huh? I don't get it.


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## [email protected] (Aug 13, 2009)

lolzertank said:


> I didn't mean doomed in the sense that no one can buy them anymore, but I think they won't be able to stave off CFLs in Average Joe's home if they're $5 a piece compared to the $1 CFLs. Incandescent bulb's greatest advantage going back to haunt themselves...
> 
> Obviously, if Phillips and Osram manage to drop the price to something close to today's incans, everything should be fine.




Well cruising another supermarket today and I noted Mirabella have started marketing "Energy Efficient" frosted incandescent lamps (at less than local CFLs) so that's what 3 companies now? I just hope their QC is better these days as the odd CFL of theirs I've tried has left me a little disappointed... but then to be fair I've had a couple of DOA Philips CFLs too recently 

Matching price is only part of the equation... 30% efficiency still isn't keeping up with CFL technology...


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## StefanFS (Aug 13, 2009)

We (my family) stopped using incandescent E14/E27 bulbs years ago. With good products there are no issues with tint/tone, flicker or CFL's dying prematurely.






The Energy Saver E27 halogen on the left are about $2 here. The Osram Dulux Superstar CFL's are expensive at ~$6, but of superior quality. They are warm white and extremely fast. The IRC bulbs are unbeatable for longevity.

I haven't seen any hoarding of E14/E27 incandescents here as CFL's and halogen solutions, especially the better quality ones, are very popular here. 

Banning things always rile people, in this case it would have been better to just stop making the incan bulbs. I believe the alternatives are far better, especially for the electricity bill when I consider it in a longer perspective.


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## DM51 (Aug 13, 2009)

Icebreak said:


> Over poster!





js said:


> Errr. . . . huh? I don't get it.


I think what Icebreak means is that MFS1589 has been a member since 2006 but this is only his 3rd post, lol


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## Icebreak (Aug 13, 2009)

So he must have found this thread to be of significant importance to spend his one post per year quota on it. Gotta love it.

Every time I think I know everything I just visit the incandescent forum.


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## LuxLuthor (Aug 13, 2009)

Icebreak said:


> So he must have found this thread to be of significant importance to spend his one post per year quota on it. Gotta love it.



I preferred the elegant simplicity of your more subtle statement, but understand the need for prolixity.


Icebreak said:


> Every time I think I know everything I just visit the incandescent forum.



Isn't it grand?


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## lctorana (Aug 13, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> ...understand the need for prolixity.


That entirely depends on diet and exercise.


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## Icebreak (Aug 13, 2009)

StefanFS said:


> snip...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Good to know. Thanks for the photo.


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## Icebreak (Aug 14, 2009)

It just occurred to me. I was looking at yellow's chandelier pic again and thinking about what those crystal design elements look like in person. Then I got to thinking about how incandescents have that total spectrum. And it is that total spectrum that causes crystal chandeliers to be so spectacular, even when lit by candle light verses lamps.

I got to thinking...would people with extensive, disposable cash be snapping up crystal chandeliers and the incandescent lamps that go with them? I suddenly feel a need to go on Ebay and buy a nice chandelier. 

Forgive me if that sounds nuts. I just barely finished my cup of coffee.


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## lctorana (Aug 14, 2009)

Not at all.

Pretty light fittings that only suit incan bulbs must be being trashed all the time at the minute.

Some delightful stuff must be there for the asking.

Good idea.


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## ampdude (Aug 14, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007 OR specifically H.R.6 - SEC. 315. IMPROVED ENERGY EFFICIENCY FOR APPLIANCES AND BUILDINGS IN COLD CLIMATES. :thumbsup:
> 
> 
> There's a lot of Government/legalese waffle to wade through but the general concept is for the ban of incandescent bulbs between 40~150w that don't exhibit a 30% efficiency improvement to achieve *45 Lumens per watt* by 2014 (with a backstop requirement of 2020), both Philips & Osram (see below) have already developed improved efficiency incandescent bulbs to compete with CFLs



[email protected], thanks for the reply. I was aware that there were already attempts under way in Congress to ban incans in the United States, but I had forgetton which bill relates to this.


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## Patriot (Aug 14, 2009)

> *Patriot*
> In addition to incan hording, I think Germans ought to establish a yearly mercury festival in which local communities go toss their burned out CFL's into the middle of the street. They could then crunch the broken glass beneath their shoes as they dance to music and drink beer.....
> 
> now I'm in trouble :tinfoil:






maxilux said:


> ???? I dont know this, sorry





I was just being silly with irony maxilux.... by referring to the mercury content within CFL bulbs and trading one "evil" for another. Nothing intended to be serious.


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## LuxLuthor (Aug 15, 2009)

Patriot said:


> I was just being silly with irony maxilux.... by referring to the mercury content within CFL bulbs and trading one "evil" for another. Nothing intended to be serious.



I took what maxilux posted--like most people using CFL's--they have no awareness of the mercury content/hazardous cleanup guidelines. 

I know the ones I tried and hated, got tossed in my garbage can with the turkey carcass. It is the same with assorted dead batteries--almost everyone goes for the convenience of tossing in their trash, while in some cases posting they "recycled" them.


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## Flashfirstask?later (Aug 15, 2009)

StefanFS said:


> Banning things always rile people, in this case it would have been better to just stop making the incan bulbs. I believe the alternatives are far better, especially for the electricity bill when I consider it in a longer perspective.


Regular CFL's are not so much better than incandescent bulbs in places that have cold winters as it was found people were using or increasing the temperature with furnace heat more to compensate for the loss of some heat that the incandescents provided in some rooms. The CFL's were made for warmer places in mind.

Have to look for the Osram bulbs to see what prices and options that exist here.


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## js (Aug 15, 2009)

Indeed. I was talking with the owner of an art gallery one day and he:

1. Would never dream of using anything other than halogens to illuminate the artwork.

2. Didn't have to use the heating system much in the winter with all those halogen lamps burning,

but,

3. Had a heck of an air conditioning bill on hot summer days!


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## js (Aug 15, 2009)

Oh and mercury is indeed a definite downside! It is NOT good when dumped into the environment, and is NOT good when it gets into your system. Not good at all.

And, just as a bit of trivia, mercury is really bad for the HY100 steel in some nuclear submarines. When I worked at Portsmouth Naval Shipyard on Seavey Island, they were VERY VERY serious about fluorescent tubes and their disposal, and no fluorescent lighting was used on board the Los Angeles class submarines--or anywhere even close. But that has not much bearing on our discussion!

Back OT, you know that many, if not most, people will improperly dispose of CFL lamps by just tossing them in the trash. And that's a big deal. A much bigger deal than a bit more CO2 in the atmosphere!

For myself, I'm very careful about disposing of such things and do NOT throw them in the trash. Most towns will have resources available to you for proper disposal of such things as NiCd batteries or CFL's. Check it out.


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## Patriot (Aug 16, 2009)

js said:


> When I worked at Portsmouth Naval Shipyard on Seavey Island, they were VERY VERY serious about fluorescent tubes and their disposal, and no fluorescent lighting was used on board the Los Angeles class submarines--or anywhere even close. But that has not much bearing on our discussion!
> 
> Back OT, you know that many, if not most, people will improperly dispose of CFL lamps by just tossing them in the trash. And that's a big deal. A much bigger deal than a bit more CO2 in the atmosphere!




Agreed. At least CO2 is supposed to be in the atmosphere as compared to mercury in our drinking water. 

That sounds like one heck of an interesting job you had at on Seavey Island Js. Interesting about the steal and mercury too. The sounded hyper sensitive about it, probably for good reason.


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## [email protected] (Aug 16, 2009)

ampdude said:


> [email protected], thanks for the reply. I was aware that there were already attempts under way in Congress to ban incans in the United States, but I had forgetton which bill relates to this.



You're most welcome... I thought our politico-jabber-ese was difficult to wade through, boy did I learn something perusing those US papers 


StefanFS, that's a charging jack aside your 'sawn-off' Maglite host yes? SWEET!


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## LuxLuthor (Aug 18, 2009)

I wonder if German sailors notice the same problems, which may lead to exceptions in their ban?

http://warisboring.com/?p=2168


> Given that people have an intrinsic, 25-hour circadian rhythm that fits into a 24-hour day, there may be problems with that schedule. We also talked about lighting on board, about which some percentage of sailors complain bitterly. The new “broad spectrum,” low-level, fluorescent lighting used on many submarines gives some people headaches.


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## js (Aug 19, 2009)

Patriot,

It was interesting in some ways, and excruciatingly boring in other ways. I won't go into it unless someone really wants to know, but let's just say that it was a long year. Still, as I say, there certainly were interesting things about it.

Anyway, I remembered that the Los Angeles class submarines used HY80 steel, not HY100. I also wonder just how many Los Angeles class submarines are still in service, as they were superceded by the Seawolf class (which does use HY100).

Whatever . . . the point is that it's impossible to reconcile what they told me at PSNSY about fluorescent tubes and mercury, with the link Lux posted above. Unless, somehow, the steel is only vulnerable when bare? When a submarine came in to dry dock, many areas of it, especially ballast tanks, would get sandblasted clean and repainted. Also, if it needed refueling they would _cut a big hole in the hull with a carbon arc cutter!!!_. And this would then need to be carefully, carefully re-welded by expert welders, and they would check the weld with x-ray imaging. Pretty crazy stuff. It was a thick hull skin, too. Two or more inches, if I remember correctly.

Anyway, my thought is maybe that the painted HY80 or HY100, isn't bothered by a bit of mercury vapor? Not sure. But if they are using CFL's on submarines it's got to be something like that, as you know they will get broken from time to time, right?

One of the guys I worked with used to be a submariner, and he said it pretty much sucked, and that when he wasn't on shift he was in his rack, sleeping.

I suppose the coolness-factor of being on a submarine, hundreds of feet below the surface of the ocean, would wear off pretty quickly. LOL! For myself, I can tell you that I loved going on board the submarines, especially when they weren't in dry dock. Amazing. Atmospheric. Like something out of a movie. Sadly, I never went into the reactor room. I had the clearance, but not the _need_. I tried to convince one of the senior engineers training me to come up with some excuse for us to visit the reactor room, but he wasn't buying it. Ah, well. I was a fire control electronics engineer, --by title anyway. Really I was a technical writer who wrote work instructions for the technicians who would be doing the work. I did a lot of consulting drawings and specs and procedures and so on, checking part numbers and fiddly little details like that, but not really much in the way of actual engineering. That's OK, though.

The control room here where I work now at Cornell's particle accelerator is pretty damned cool, too, and I don't think the coolness factor has worn off yet. And, I actually do science and engineering, from time to time. Boys and their toys and playing in the dirt and making stuff and learning stuff. That's the atmosphere here. Couldn't realistically be better!

And . . . we use low-level incandescent lamps down-lighting the work surface areas in the control room. No freaking fluorescents! And, I pretty much own the control room when it comes to details like that, and I can tell you we will NEVER switch to CFL's for the low-level constant lighting in there (it's very dimly lit, so we can see our scopes and readouts and stuff). And if there's a ban coming, I will pre-order like 1,000 lamps and set them aside. LOL! We still use R-12 Freon in some of our systems in the ring, if that tells you anything about the attitude here.


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## Monocrom (Aug 19, 2009)

I would really like to know, if you wouldn't mind sharing. It sounds fascinating.


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## rdunk77 (Aug 19, 2009)

JS, 
I've appreciated many of your posts in then past but didn't know you worked with an accelerator. You can see by my post count that my forum experience level is low. So please PM me or suggest where I might post questions for you if you're willing to share your experience. I'm interested in what kind of degree you hold and your experience as an engineer. I've been a Biomed by trade for 18 years & just returned to school in pursuit of an EE. There are many things I want to learn to do and I'm hoping to discover the knowledge at the University.

Best regards,
RAD


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## js (Aug 19, 2009)

RAD,

If you like, I can post a sort of "where I work" thread in the CAFE, about the accelerator. I went around taking a bunch of pictures of it for just that purpose. I had been planning on posting this sort of a thread in the underground, but there's no reason I can't post it in the CAFE.

And please feel free to PM me with any more pressing questions you might have before that thread gets posted. It will take me a couple weeks to finish it.

Monocrom,

Been meaning to PM you, actually . . . LOL!

But, OK, the slightly longer version of my experience as an electronics engineer for the Navy is that initially I spent A LOT of time sitting around, doing absolutely nothing constructive. A course here, a training session there, a few pointers from a senior engineer now and again, and so on. Every day I used to go around to all the engineers asking them if I could do anything for them. Anything. Get them coffee. Photocopy drawings. Drop off their dry cleaning. (joking about that last.) But seriously. I was so, so bored.

And aparently, this sort of non-productivity used to be the norm for much of the time. People did a lot of sitting around between projects. There was even a joke that my wife heard while we were living there in Southern Maine about these two guys who both used to work at the shipyard, and who both applied to the same firm (not the shipyard) for a job, one, then the other a month or so later. The first guy was asked if he ever worked at the shipyard, and he said "No" and they said "Good, because we don't hire anyone from the shipyard".

Then, a month later, his friend applies and they ask him the same question and he says "yes" he worked there, and they refuse him, and he says "but you hired my friend Joe, and he worked at the shipyard."

So, the boss goes up to Joe and says "You told me you never worked at the shipyard but we just interviewed your friend, and he says you were there for 10 years."

And Joe says "Yup. That's right. I was there for 10 years and never did a lick of work."

Sitting in a cubicle for 8 hours a day, staring at freaking government procedure manuals and a computer screen (not allowed to surf the net) and having NOTHING REAL to do, was sheer, UTTER, *HELL*. I had a calendar on my wall and at the end of every day, I would "X" out the box, with the grim satisfaction that there were only 365 days in a year, and that eventually, finally, it would have to end.

But, when I did have stuff to do, which happened more and more frequently towards the end, it wasn't nearly so bad. And I got to go for a week of training at NewPort and got to check out a Seawolf (which, and this is just SO funny--the sailors used to call the "pier wolf" because it spent so much time docked at the pier due to problems), and I got to train on the firecontrol system for the torpedos. It was freaking HUGE. Bomb-proof. And locked in a concrete walled, windowless room with a SAFE DOOR as the entry. I kid you not. Combination lock and everything. That was worthwhile and educational. And there were some good people there. But, overall, my job here is way, way, WAY better!

OK. I probably shouldn't drag this thread any further off topic. People can PM me with further questions, and/or wait until the CAFE thread on the accelerator.

Lux, if you want, I can edit this post and turn it into a PM for Monocrom. Please feel completely free to ask me to do this if you'd like this thread to be a bit more on topic.


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## Icebreak (Aug 19, 2009)

Just to torture myself, I guess; I keep a warm CFL in a hallway. Really, I haven't grown weary of my fascination of how truly awful it is. It's like the worst of both worlds to me. Kinda brownish looking and still lacking soul. At least the hot stuff has an attitude. What hell on earth it would be to be stuck in a sub with weird light all the time.

OFF topic, somewhat. I was surprised to read that the USS Toledo was a Los Angeles class attack sub. Interesting.




js said:


> . . . we use low-level incandescent lamps down-lighting the work surface areas in the control room. No freaking fluorescents! And, I pretty much own the control room when it comes to details like that, and I can tell you we will NEVER switch to CFL's for the low-level constant lighting in there (it's very dimly lit, so we can see our scopes and readouts and stuff). And if there's a ban coming, I will pre-order like 1,000 lamps and set them aside. LOL! We still use R-12 Freon in some of our systems in the ring, if that tells you anything about the attitude here.



See, this real world stuff I can relate too, you know, professional experiences tell a larger tale than the tale itself. I'm the senior software development engineer in this gigantic organization. I can have about what I want in our laboratory. We use this for development of interrelated software packages used to crunch thousands and thousands of tables of rapidly updated information. We like to test in multiple environments simultaneously and get real time, measurable readouts on data performance. I use several projectors so I can pretty much well light up a large wall with a running project. Looks like something from NASA.

Well, I've thought about this before but now I think I'm going to go ahead and spec incandescent spots for the stations. We just need to see the keyboards and notes and watch the projections. Incans would be perfect here. Thanks for the inspiration, js. 

Heck, I'm looking at Ebay for desk chandeliers for our private offices...but that's another thread.


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## Monocrom (Aug 20, 2009)

Thanks for the reply, js.

And, I definitely know what it's like to be bored off your @$$ at work on a daily basis.


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## StefanFS (Aug 21, 2009)

[email protected] said:


> You're most welcome... I thought our politico-jabber-ese was difficult to wade through, boy did I learn something perusing those US papers
> 
> 
> StefanFS, that's a charging jack aside your 'sawn-off' Maglite host yes? SWEET!


 
Yes, it is. And the scene is lit by a few ES 20 Watt (13-14 Watt each really) halogen bulbs!


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## smootik (Aug 23, 2009)

yellow said:


> 100s are already gone here (or about to be banned, havent bought any bulbs in years),
> 80, 60 by the end of year (if thats the plan, not sure on this)


Official EU incandescent ban schedule is:
1/09/2009: 100W and all frosted glass
1/09/2010: 75W
1/09/2011: 60W
1/09/2012: 40 and 25W

EU research on lighting is posted here:
http://www.eup4light.net/

Check also interesting questions posted to European Commission:
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//TEXT+WQ+P-2009-0146+0+DOC+XML+V0//EN
and answers:
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getAllAnswers.do?reference=P-2009-0146&language=EN

As for me - a flat where I live had CFLs "grandfathered" from previous locator. I was willing to experiment, but I eventually replaced them with incandescent bulbs due to poor usability: long warm-up times, poor colours (yellowish or blueish). I also had an impression (purely subjective) that I have to crank the heating up during winter. Incandescents "waste" energy as heat, but in winter this is a good side effect ;-)
I am used to saving energy by switching off unused lights and electric appliances. Compared to people who leave their lights/tv/... on in multiple rooms all the time this saves approximately as much energy as moving to CFL technology, but with better (for me) light quality.

Am I going to hoard bulbs? Perhaps. I do not like being constrained in my choice (=tried CFLs, did not like them). Moving to CFLs would probably require redesign of lighting system - placement and power of each fixture - to fit CFL characteristics. This is an additional cost.

Regardless of technological merits, this is a very subjective discussion.


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## computernut (Aug 24, 2009)

I've switched over to mostly CFL's in the past year after I moved into a new place and got the first electric bill. After trying cool-white I found some natural-white ones I liked and bought a few cases of them. I've had a couple blow prematurely but not enough to be alarmed about. I found in some areas I bumped up the wattage a notch, like putting 60W equivalent bulbs where there were 40W incandescents before to match the light output. I have a couple of dimmable 40W halogen lamps which I can't do anything with, and there are a couple of lamps I keep incans in for the quality of light for reading but they aren't on all the time so I'm not too worried about them. The province I live in is banning some incans in 2012 so if I'll be impacted I'll be stocking up but with the internet I'm sure I can always order some in.


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## LuxLuthor (Sep 2, 2009)

OMG, tonight I turned on the TV to catch the nightly news, and it was sitting on NBC with Brian Williams. As I was reaching for the remote to change channels to a real news show, I caught a lead-in to a story about people hoarding 100W incan bulbs. I set it to TIVO, while changing to a proper channel.

I went back later and fast forwarded through the drivel, and towards the last part of the evening 'news' coverage they did a whole story on people in Europe hating CFL's and hoarding incand household bulbs.

Bri-Bri started off with saying "They [CFL's] do not give off the same old glow," then introduced a field reporter, Dawna Friesen, who gave a report from London.

She said "...some people being forced to use CFL's are incandescent with rage." First interview was with a younger consumer who said: "I hate them....Yeah?...OK?....I hate them." Second older consumer said "Just read about them...they are quite useless." 

Dawna did a demo standing there in her bright red dress, first turning on the incand light, and saying "We all know what the old bulbs are like--nice and bright." 

She turns the lamp off, and on her other side, turns on a CFL, and says: "The biggest complaint about the new ones is the quality of the light just isn't as nice...and it takes about a minute for these to get as intense as the old ones."

Dawna further opines: "Some people think whoever's forced us to use these is a bit of a dimwit." Then some British Government estimate was quoted as saying "...if every house in the country used 3 of these low energy light bulbs, it would save enough energy to light the nation's streets for a year."

She advised that "By 2012, all old bulbs will be outlawed, with talk of a new agency in Europe to police bulb use." Then a bit about the same starting in America in 2012.

I have it saved as probably the only news item I have ever TIVO'd from NBC.


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## Icebreak (Sep 3, 2009)

50W Par38 incandescents in fairly high-end restaurant.

These guys are gathering lamps because the are highly preferred. They've reported having a little difficulty finding them lately.


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## John_Galt (Sep 4, 2009)

Wow, a panel for enforcing the use of CFL's. What BS! I would never allow some unknown person into my home, let alone a government agent who's gonna make sure I'm using CFL's.


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## Monocrom (Sep 5, 2009)

Hmmm.... There might be some money in this.

Instead of a gun-runner, I could be a bulb-runner. Supply the people with that warm, sunny, glow that they really want.

Maybe Spielberg will make a film about me.... But then leave out the most important part like he did with another one of his films set in Germany.


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## Juggernaut (Sep 5, 2009)

Monocrom said:


> Hmmm.... There might be some money in this.
> 
> Instead of a gun-runner, I could be a bulb-runner. Supply the people with that warm, sunny, glow that they really want.
> 
> Maybe Spielberg will make a film about me.... But then leave out the most important part like he did with another one of his films set in Germany.


 


C.P.F.
_GOT INCAN?_
__ 
__​We should all switch to Carbon filament bulbs to deify them:nana:. 




​


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## pertinax (Sep 17, 2009)

For anyone still reading this thread: The bulbs to stockpile are the 130V long life incans. Go up one "size"-- buy a 75W to replace a 60W, etc. These bulbs last 5-10 times longer than the 120V bulbs, and cost pretty much the same.

You'll have to get them from a lighting supply house-- not a single chain (Lowes, Home Depot, etc.) will carry them. Not enough profit I guess; they last years.

They will be a bit dimmer at 120V than a regular 120V bulb. And a bit yellower. But you're likely to sell your house before you replace them. I've been using them for decades and never understood why this is a "secret". But you're throwing your money away if you buy anything else.


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## Juggernaut (Sep 17, 2009)

pertinax said:


> For anyone still reading this thread: The bulbs to stockpile are the 130V long life incans. Go up one "size"-- buy a 75W to replace a 60W, etc. These bulbs last 5-10 times longer than the 120V bulbs, and cost pretty much the same.
> 
> You'll have to get them from a lighting supply house-- not a single chain (Lowes, Home Depot, etc.) will carry them. Not enough profit I guess; they last years.
> 
> They will be a bit dimmer at 120V than a regular 120V bulb. And a bit yellower. But you're likely to sell your house before you replace them. I've been using them for decades and never understood why this is a "secret". But you're throwing your money away if you buy anything else.


 
Well technically they are much less efficient “you loss money by simply running them:shakehead” and some people will be turned off by their yellowish low Kelvin color:sick2:. But you know what I think? Who cares! I want never dying Incan bulbs and I don’t mind the lower temp Kelvin color, so thanks a lot for the info:twothumbs!
 
EDIT:
I noticed a lot of 130 volt light bulbs who had like 5,000 - 10,000 hour life, but what about this http://www.1000bulbs.com/75-Watt-Incandescents/3255/ 20,000 hour one! The only thing is it’s rated for 120 volts and not 130?


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## LuxLuthor (Sep 17, 2009)

pertinax said:


> For anyone still reading this thread: The bulbs to stockpile are the 130V long life incans. Go up one "size"-- buy a 75W to replace a 60W, etc. These bulbs last 5-10 times longer than the 120V bulbs, and cost pretty much the same.
> 
> You'll have to get them from a lighting supply house-- not a single chain (Lowes, Home Depot, etc.) will carry them. Not enough profit I guess; they last years.
> 
> They will be a bit dimmer at 120V than a regular 120V bulb. And a bit yellower. But you're likely to sell your house before you replace them. I've been using them for decades and never understood why this is a "secret". But you're throwing your money away if you buy anything else.



Do you have a linky of where you got them?


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## LuxLuthor (Sep 17, 2009)

Juggernaut said:


> I noticed a lot of 130 volt light bulbs who had like 5,000 - 10,000 hour life, but what about this http://www.1000bulbs.com/75-Watt-Incandescents/3255/ 20,000 hour one! The only thing is it’s rated for 120 volts and not 130?



That looks impressive.


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## Juggernaut (Sep 18, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> That looks impressive.


 
This place is pretty good for selection:thumbsup:, though I have never done business with them = http://www.1000bulbs.com/Light-Bulbs/. What I wonder is if these 130 volt bulbs can last 10,000 hours vs. 1,000 hour 120 volt bulbs, what would these http://www.1000bulbs.com/Antique-Light-Bulbs/ Antique replica bulbs rated at 240 volts run like at 120!?! I know they say 3,000, but I assume that’s at 240 volts.


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## John_Galt (Sep 18, 2009)

Oh, hey, I just remembered, my grandfather has two 240V lightbulbs in the stairwell to his basement, lit 24/7 (well, except when the power goes out). 
They're not very bright, and really yellow, but he says he's had the same bulbs in a 120V circuit since hew quit working in the mills. So, what 35+ years out of a bulb is pretty good.


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## Yavox (Sep 19, 2009)

100W bulbs banned in Poland too (we are a part of EU anyway, unfortunately).

The last few weeks before the ban was introduced, people were buying 20-50 bulbs at once. I guess that large part of the country has a lifetime supply of 100W bulbs now )))

A few days after the ban, 99W bulbs appeared ))) Shops are full of them. So now we are in the middle of a stupid game of government forcing some market regulations and people resisting againts it. 

Quite sad, because proper communiation about the benefits of using energy-saving bulbs would probably be enough. Manufacturers would have to reduce their prices, customers would start buying more, old 100W bulbs would become obsolete and would gradually dissappear. Everybody would be happy. Now people are forced to buy much more expensive energy-saving bulbs at high prices, because manufacturers didn't have to make their move...

Anybody knows someone at EU council who could make all people here wear hats all the time, due to another regulation? I would start producing the hats then...


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## [email protected] (Sep 19, 2009)

Yavox said:


> the benefits of using energy-saving bulbs would probably be enough. Manufacturers would have to reduce their prices, customers would start buying more, old 100W bulbs would become obsolete and would gradually dissappear. Everybody would be happy.



We were talking about how we love our incans and the problems with CFL's such as flickering, low CRI, crappy ballasts and mercury.


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## lctorana (Sep 19, 2009)

Yavox said:


> A few days after the ban, 99W bulbs appeared


I love it!


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## Kiessling (Sep 19, 2009)

EU citizen said:


> A few days after the ban, 99W bulbs appeared



Now that's cool! Great move of defiance 
I salute Poland :wave:

bernie


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## Monocrom (Sep 19, 2009)

Yavox said:


> 100W bulbs banned in Poland too (we are a part of EU anyway, unfortunately).
> 
> The last few weeks before the ban was introduced, people were buying 20-50 bulbs at once. I guess that large part of the country has a lifetime supply of 100W bulbs now )))
> 
> ...


 
If someone came into your home, and said "I know a better way for you to live," and then started changing things around. . . It wouldn't matter if indeed his ideas were a better way to live, most people would get upset and defiant. 

With politicians, they just figure they'll pass a law, ban a certain object, and people will just have to live with it. The politicians justify their actions by saying it's a better way for people to live. Some folks realize the stupidity in that way of thinking, so they do things like hoard bulbs, or create 99W bulbs; just to thumb their noses at the politicos.

There's a right and a wrong way to go about changing the way people think and do things. Just outright banning something overnight, is the wrong way.


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## LuxLuthor (Sep 20, 2009)

LOL! Who would have thought that Poland would figure out such a simple way to battle the eco-terrorists! Bravo!! :thumbsup: I'm going to turn on every incand bulb in my house for an hour as a celebratory tribute. 

Long live Incands. :twothumbs


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## Monocrom (Sep 20, 2009)

LuxLuthor said:


> Long live Incands. :twothumbs


 
Agreed!

They can have my M6 when they pry it out of my cold, dead, fist.


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## Juggernaut (Sep 20, 2009)

Monocrom said:


> Agreed!
> 
> They can have my M6 when they pry it out of my cold, dead, fist.


 
lovecpf!


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## John_Galt (Sep 20, 2009)

That's an interesting shell game. And when 99watters are banned, the 98'ers will appear.

Good thinking on peoples parts.lovecpf:huh:


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## LuxLuthor (Sep 20, 2009)

Maybe I should register the SaintIncandsDay.com domain. LOL!


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## LuxLuthor (Sep 26, 2010)

Some good deals listed at 1001bulbs.com if you buy at least 30.


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## Icebreak (Sep 26, 2010)

I found these at Home Depot. 60W Phillips on the left 100W GE on the right.
Lit by a PILA GL4 with lumens factory lamp and diffused by white coffee filter 

Camera white balance set to white napkin so you can see the exact color of the tinting on the GE 100W. Is that for IRC?

They are so beautiful in rendering color. 








Link to much larger pic:
Big Picture on photobucket


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## bulbman (Oct 14, 2010)

candle sales up 10000%


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## John_Galt (Oct 17, 2010)

Are any of you in the US stocking up? I know my family is...


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## Boss Hogg (Sep 25, 2011)

1 year bump. Can anybody vouch for 1000bulbs.com that has been mentioned in this thread? How was there shipping and overall service?


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## Danielsan (Sep 25, 2011)

I dont care about the ban, i changed everything to LED and i mean the real deal LED Bulbs with 8W not the dimm crap you get everywhere. The dimm crap blueish LED bulbs let the ppl mass buy the normal old fashioned bulbs because they are dimm like hell. My grandmother loves the old bulbs because she is used to warm light. The energy saver bulbs and the LED are a bit colder but i bought really good warm white LED bulbs with metal fins, one is about 30 dollar but they will last forever. The normal ones always crapped out in 4 weeks in my home,dont know why. I have also some Halogen lights as well.


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## KROMATICS (Sep 25, 2011)

Why stock up on incandescents? Aren't halogens exempt from the ban? I've seen a bunch being repackaged as incandescent replacements. Something like 42w halogen replacing a 60w incandescent, lasts twice as long, slightly brighter, less yellow light, etc.


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## LuxLuthor (Sep 26, 2011)

I get a kick out of people saying their incands only lasted 4 weeks. They deserve buying a $30 supposed replacement.

I can report that 1000bulbs.com have been great for me. Look for the 5,000 or 10K or 20K hour life bulbs. Those used to be about 75-80 cents when I bought a boatload of them. None of them have burned out since I started using them several years ago in my most frequently used lights.

Let's see...I keep the average light on maybe 5-7 hours per day, so 20K bulb divided by 7 hours = 2,857 days divided by 365/year _(assuming I keep the bulb on for 7 hours every single day)_ = 7.8 years. A tad better than the aforementioned 4 weeks. ROFL!

The halogen are nice, but don't have the life or price as the regular incands.


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## MikeAusC (Sep 26, 2011)

In Australia Incandescent sales have been banned - but Halogen bulbs are a direct substitute.

Not that I care - I've replaced the 50 watt halogen downlights with twice as many 4 watt 12 volt Warm White LED downlights from Dealextreme and everybody's happy.


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## LuxLuthor (Sep 26, 2011)

Boss Hogg said:


> 1 year bump. Can anybody vouch for 1000bulbs.com that has been mentioned in this thread? How was there shipping and overall service?


 
Besides my previous post, another good source of incandescent bulbs I can vouch for is http://www.bulbamerica.com Get them while you still can until the "government knows best" forces them out of being manufactured (which they have already done in the USA), or the next step will be to block their being imported from China. I never thought I would have something to appreciate China for.


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## Colonel Sanders (Sep 26, 2011)

I outfitted my entire new house with bulbs from 1000bulbs.com. They are great to deal with and I highly recommend them. :thumbsup: However, if you buy several hundred of the same bulb at one time it may take awhile for them to arrive. Their communication is outstanding too, btw.


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## HotWire (Sep 26, 2011)

I've noticed that no matter how long the manufacturer says a CFL will last..... mine last about 1--2 years, then <<POOF>>! No real savings there. Right now many CFL bulbs are being subsidized. Think what they will cost when incandescent lamps are no longer available!


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## JacobJones (Sep 26, 2011)

1-2 years, that's good. We have never had cfl's last more than a couple of months. Since they banned normal incandescent bulbs we have started using the halogen replacements, the colour seems quite similar to ordinary incandescents. They are expensive and don't last very long though, we had one blow the day after we put it in. 
I am already missing good old incandescent bulbs.


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## Danielsan (Sep 26, 2011)

> Let's see...I keep the average light on maybe 5-7 hours per day, so 20K bulb divided by 7 hours = 2,857 days divided by 365/year _(assuming I keep the bulb on for 7 hours every single day)_ = 7.8 years. A tad better than the aforementioned 4 weeks. ROFL!



maybe correct for your house but not for mine, i have tons of lights, i even collect italian modern classic table lights.As soon as i switch all the lights on in the dark you have a faulty one, dont know what the problem is, maybe something with the electricity or the normal bulbs have bad quality here. Thats why i changed to LED and they last until now.


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## Monocrom (Sep 27, 2011)

LuxLuthor said:


> Besides my previous post, another good source of incandescent bulbs I can vouch for is http://www.bulbamerica.com Get them while you still can until the "government knows best" forces them out of being manufactured (which they have already done in the USA), or the next step will be to block their being imported from China. I never thought I would have something to appreciate China for.



It's odd. When they know we want quality, China is very capable of producing it. But for most of their goods bound for America, they know the average consumer is only going to be interested in price. Best example of true quality from China would be automatic watches with the Sea-gull movement. Some independent watchmakers even grudgingly admit that the quality is barely a notch below that of some swiss movements.


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## blasterman (Sep 27, 2011)

1000bulbs has always had good service and shipping. Like anything else, when you buy their cheaper products like CFLs and ballasts you get what you pay for.

I can attest for their long life incans. Two summers ago I installed a 24-pack of their 75-watt clear halco long life incans and they are all still going strong - even on a nasty dimmer circuit. We're looking at ~20k hours from $1.00 incans - on an analog dimmer. Not bad.

While they are significantly dimmer than typical 100watt incans they are used primarily for ambience and hard to change given their location. Nothing in LED retrofit formats would solve the problem not to mention the expense.


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## mamelo (Sep 30, 2011)

Just my humble thoughts...

CFL bulbs

+ save energy (produce less heat) compared to incans, once powered up

- power up slowly (minutes)
- need more energy to power up
- more energy needed to produce it
- unhealthy and environmentally problematic materials (e.g. mercury). Must be recycled.
- emit pulsed light and electromagnetic rays, potentially unhealthy, definitely uncozy
- don't last as long as advertised, ESPECIALLY when switched ON/OFF often (lifetime figures don't take into account switching the bulbs at all)
- recycling, if at all being done, is energy consuming
- expensive

Incan bulbs

+ power up immediately
+ produce heat in winter. for inhouse incans, this energy is not lost (!) (may not be cheap heating energy but at least the energy balance is far better than often said)
+ save ressources (materials) when produced
+ low energy needed when produced
+ cozy, comfortable light
+ switching ON/OFF is less stress to incans than to CFLs
+ cheap


- produce heat in summer (this is the ONLY negative point in the whole energy balance)


Summary: 

* The energy balance of ordinary incan bulbs is far better than often said, compared to CFL.
* Incans is safer, healthier, more comfortable, and overall better suited for short-term usage (cellar, garage, lavatory, short-term outside lightening) 
and therefore much cheaper for those use cases (total cost of ownership).
* CFL are better for long-term lightening, e.g. the whole evening/night, in non-living rooms (or even only outside, if you care for emission of mercury in case it breaks)

-> Take the right "tool" depending on the job

Halogen incan lights have slightly better energy balance then ordinary incans. They are still quite expensive and many of them don't last as long as advertised with 230V.


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## Howecollc (Dec 2, 2011)

Every time I see the title of this thread I can't help but think of Norm Macdonald.


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## Howecollc (Dec 2, 2011)

Icebreak said:


> I found these at Home Depot. 60W Phillips on the left 100W GE on the right.
> Lit by a PILA GL4 with lumens factory lamp and diffused by white coffee filter
> 
> Camera white balance set to white napkin so you can see the exact color of the tinting on the GE 100W. Is that for IRC?
> ...


So how does the quality of light of the Halogen Reveals compare to the standard A19 incan frosted Reveals? I've seen some negative reviews of them online but honestly wondered how they could really be any different other than possibly harsher shadows due to the lack of frosting.


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