# Headlight "depth perception" trail hiking and the Belt buckle light?



## VidPro (Apr 22, 2007)

When a light comes off your head very close to your eyes, they say that you cannot see how high an item might be on the trail. a rock a hole whatever.
I have not really ever had a problem with that, and "depth perception" is of course not the correct wording.
ya gets your depth perception based on having 2 eyes seperated from eachother both showing different views combineed by elbraino. so you still have 2 eyes, and they still see 2 pictures.

What you don't have indeed, is the SHADOWS.
so out there on a dark trail with my light set very low, i thought about this, and its true, you dont see trail shadows, so indeed a larger rock doesnt look that much higher than a smaller rock, it is hard to tell how far an item sticks UP out of the trail.

so i put my headlight UP as far as i could, and still nothing, then i lowered it down, and sure enough shadows dependant on height were quite obvious.

and then i thought, WHY? why is there not a Belt Buckle light? using a flat li-poly type of cell a led , and short optics , a belt buckle light would be pretty easy to make.
I was holding my headlamp there at belt buckle level, and ran into a tree :laughing: and had this thought.

a headlight used for a LONG time, often needs a Belt battery pack already, ya already need a belt, and its a good place to run wires through, a buckle would be a good item to be a heat sink (vrses this plastic junk were getting).
just seems really possible.?


----------



## bridgman (Apr 22, 2007)

There are a bunch of good belt clip lights or lights that clip onto backpack webbing; maybe one of those would be good. ElektroLumens has a nice GI right angle light hopped up with an SSC P4... AngleLux or something like that.


----------



## VidPro (Apr 22, 2007)

i was thinking more along the lines of finding the right buckle, and turning IT into a light.
some of them rodeo champion type buckles are big enough for a led and a li-poly in the thing. not to mention crasy buckles like WWW wrestling ones  which you could put a whole array into

like one of these things
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=180109043418
if they didnt have so much art junk on them.

the buckle would need to curve downward, so the aim could be down a few degrees, depending on beer belly size and all . so the rounded "Sheild" style , has the right angle .
like this style
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=220103694514
minus all the art junk on it. if the led was mounted lower, it would aim down just right.


----------



## jar3ds (Apr 22, 2007)

good idea... something to think about... i'll buy a belt lamp 

that is... i'd be more interested in a actual belt made to be worn over your close that is designed to be a light... have a tiltable head, battery pack etc...


----------



## ringzero (Apr 22, 2007)

jar3ds said:


> good idea... something to think about... i'll buy a belt lamp ...that is... i'd be more interested in a actual belt made to be worn over your close that is designed to be a light... have a tiltable head, battery pack etc...



The headlamps with a flat clip designed to attach to a hard hat or caving helmet lamp mount will work fine when clipped to a waist belt. Works great if you have the headlamp but don't have a helmet with you.

Actually, I've used headlamps as belt lamps many times over the years and prefer a belt-mounted lamp to a headlamp in some conditions.


.


----------



## chumley (Apr 23, 2007)

I have noticed the same problem when hiking with a headlamp and not seeing shadows. I just don't think there would much of a market for a big buckle light. 

I lot of hikers use backpacks or lumbar packs, which have a big buckle on the waist belt. You would'nt want 2 buckles rubbing together, plus the pack buckle would cover up the light. I agree that a clip on llight would be a better option for this application.


----------



## SilverFox (Apr 23, 2007)

Hello VidPro,

Very interesting... I think it is a concept worth looking into.

Tom


----------



## chris_m (Apr 23, 2007)

I reckon the problem isn't as big as you seem to suggest. I run full speed wearing a head mounted torch, and can't say I particularly have problems with picking out the size of features in front of me. Maybe that's just down to throwing lots of lumens (I have ~500 with my current light) at the problem. Plenty of other night-orienteers would seem to agree with me - though competing in this it is also essential that your light points where you're looking.


----------



## idleprocess (Apr 23, 2007)

My main issue with headlamps has always been parallax correction - I constantly have to re-angle the thing depending on how far away I'm typically looking. Can't say that I ever had an issue with depth perception (not that I ever used headlamps at anything greater than walking speed or any application where judging distance in a short time span was critical).

A belt-buckle lamp will not be so conveniently self-aiming as a headlamp, nor will it be so free of obstructions (clothing, other belts, gear). It will place the light source closer to the battery pack should it be belt mounted, but I doubt it will compete with a headlamp for all-around utility.


----------



## chizel (Apr 23, 2007)

I've hiked in local lava tubes called the Ape Caves. They are in the foothills of Mt St Helens which blew it's top some 25+ years ago. I noticed the 'shadow' issue when hiking in total darkness. When the light source follows the same movements as one's head, it gives limited perspective information as the shadows are always falling in the same direction. (AWAY from the eyes.) Having a light source separate from the point of vision gives one opportunity to see things with greater dimension. It would be akin to tilting one's head to hear a noise better and pinpointing it's direction. 

A very good and simple solution would be to use a headlamp as normal but supplement that with a lanyard flashlight slung around the shoulder (aimed in no particular direction other than forward) to give the eyes the information they need to calculate distances properly.


----------



## VidPro (Apr 23, 2007)

chumley said:


> I lot of hikers use backpacks or lumbar packs, which have a big buckle on the waist belt. You would'nt want 2 buckles rubbing together, plus the pack buckle would cover up the light. I agree that a clip on llight would be a better option for this application.


 
thats right my waist belt lands right on top of my pants belt. them backpacking waist belt clips are good sized plastic things, with lotsa space. wedging in 2 -4 5mm leds would be easy, but getting the battery somewhere not as easy.






here is my backup waist belt clip, compared with size to some of the parts and pieces that put out light, a lux star, a 2032, a 5mm led, superflux, and a mini cree star, up top the big rectangle is a ~700ma li-poly battery.


----------



## VidPro (Apr 23, 2007)

chris_m said:


> I reckon the problem isn't as big as you seem to suggest. I run full speed wearing a head mounted torch, and can't say I particularly have problems with picking out the size of features in front of me. Maybe that's just down to throwing lots of lumens (I have ~500 with my current light) at the problem. Plenty of other night-orienteers would seem to agree with me - though competing in this it is also essential that your light points where you're looking.


 
i dont have a problem with it myself, i just was able to notice the effect they were speaking of, on this particularly rough trail. the trail was the perfect one to observe the shadows effect, big and small rocks juttising up out of the trail.
but i could easily walk or trot the trail without seeing the height of them.

and of course i love to stuff leds into things 

where would batman be without his utility belt :lolsign:


----------



## uk_caver (Apr 23, 2007)

I've only really noticed a depth issue with either low light, and/or evenly-coloured ground (mud, snow, etc).

With a good light giving decent downthrow just in front of me, depth perception close-up doesn't seem to be a problem even moving swiftly on very uniform undulating mud floors.
However, it may be that for a given total amount of light, having multiple sources may give improved performance. I suppose it comes down to whether a single headmounted source's combination of brightness and beamshape is good enough for a given piece of terrain.

The only times I recall handholding a light out of choice is when trying to follow an indistinct path at night (usually over grassy fields) in misty conditions. Having a low-held light scanning ahead can really work there, though in addition to the shadow and texture improvement, some benefit is down to avoiding glare-back from the mist.


----------



## VidPro (Apr 23, 2007)

uk_caver said:


> Having a low-held light scanning ahead can really work there, though in addition to the shadow and texture improvement, some benefit is down to avoiding glare-back from the mist.



i got a Very light fog out there on one day, and my headlamp that sits really low, had to be kicked back higher on my forehead, or the cool beam shooting through the fog was really messing with seeing past it.
color might be important when it comes to shooting through water in the air also, the blue SEEMS to bounce back off the water, more than the other colors. i saw that when playing with RGB.


----------



## VidPro (Apr 23, 2007)

idleprocess said:


> My main issue with headlamps has always been parallax correction - I constantly have to re-angle the thing depending on how far away I'm typically looking. Can't say that I ever had an issue with depth perception (not that I ever used headlamps at anything greater than walking speed or any application where judging distance in a short time span was critical).
> 
> A belt-buckle lamp will not be so conveniently self-aiming as a headlamp, nor will it be so free of obstructions (clothing, other belts, gear). It will place the light source closer to the battery pack should it be belt mounted, but I doubt it will compete with a headlamp for all-around utility.


 
2 things i have seen that will slightly correct the parallax, or the fact that you have to constantally tilt adjust the dang thing for close-ups vrses far away. one of my headlamps sits very low, and has a small head, so it cyclopses my eyes, putting it very close to the same location. the other design i have used that does that same thing, is them glasses lights.
something like this
http://www.griotsgarage.com/catalog.jsp?&SKU=23845LEN2.5
they had that design long ago with 2 incadescent bulbs on a plastic glasses like frame (minus the actual glasses). they were totally unadjustable, but always seemd to aim in the same direction as the eyes.

the head aiming is a huge concideration, with the head light wherever you look, there is your light. that is what makes it so convienient. with a belt buckle light, you would have to rotate your hips at least to look to the side. something a quick head turn accomplishes with little effort.

so what about doubbling up? what would be the effect of just SOME light comming from the belt area along with a headlight. just like a "key" light to a camera when filming or doing photography. photo pros know that a light offset from the main provides the flat picture with much more depth.


just for kicks http://www.playvisions.us/pc-328-65-swivel-headlight-eyeglasses.aspx


----------



## uk_caver (Apr 23, 2007)

I'd wonder how much light (relatively speaking) would be needed from an auxilliary light to avoid being swamped by a main beam?

I'd assume that a fairly wide smooth flood might be best for the auxilliary, to avoid the irritation of an uncontrolled spot moving around (or not moving, as the case may be), but that would rather drop the brightness in any given direction.

The thing with a photograph is that it's already lost all the binocular information in a scene, so falling back on other less precise visual cues may be more necessary.
It's also possible that there's quite some difference between a photograph looking 'flat' or not due to the absence or presence of shadows, and actually being able to extract reasonable ideas of relative positions from it.
Having said that, the change in shadows over time from an offset light source while moving would seriously magnify the value of shadow information, though I suppose the same can be said for a flatly-lit scene as well - even in the absence of shadows, relative movement of objects can provide a deal of information.


----------



## VidPro (Apr 23, 2007)

i wonder all that too, and what about "covert" of a belt light?
would the light itself have to be out of pereriferal vision?
you know all the designs that keep the person from seeing into the bulb item and only the beam itself.
down there 180* from your eyes would an "open" or raw light mess with your vision or be an irriation? would it need a tube, or cover to keep you from seeing the "filiment" so to speak.


----------



## VidPro (Apr 23, 2007)

jar3ds said:


> good idea... something to think about... i'll buy a belt lamp
> 
> that is... i'd be more interested in a actual belt made to be worn over your close that is designed to be a light... have a tiltable head, battery pack etc...


 
i am thinking that doing that would be the simplest of them all, get something like a coast revolution, buy some good strap elastic from the sporting goods store and a plastic clip. extend the wires, and have a headlamp that goes around your waist or belly, JUST because the elastic is long enough to do so.

then variations of that, like just an Add-In piece with clips, where with 1oz of elastic you convert the headlamp to a waist belt.

take your average battery on the back single strap headlamp, and you wouldnt have to even extend the wires, to have the battery on the side near the light, just extend the elastic with clips, on the side that the wires do not run.
them backpacking clips for a shoulder strap , are very ligthweight, adjusable for size.

hmmm, that would be simple and easy, but not the original intent.
if i can get everything and enough juice wedged INTO a belt buckle, with no extentions or wires or junk, then you just put on your belt.

li-polys flex a bit, a belt could have them INside of it (like a money belt) if it was done exatally correct. but flexed back and forth and stretched and all, they would not make it. coin cells could be throughout a belt, just like This money belt http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=290107739260 . or others we have all seen with chains of round metal objects around the belt.

i have found coin cells dropped and run over, of both lithium, and alkaline, and even though they were mulched, 1/2 of them were still puttin out power. they are tough little suckers. and a 2032 has quite a bit of juice in it. with a rack of 10 of them, replaceable somehow, integrated into the belt, there might be enough power for running a single high power led at lower power.

if somehow the belt itself, slipped on like any belt, passed through the hoops like any belt, but was loaded with power, and had a belt buckle with light.


----------



## Uncle Bob (Apr 23, 2007)

How about mounting a hand-held onto a telescopic pole like a news-gathering microphone? It's maneuverable and can form larger shadows because of the longer distance from your eyes if you hold it off to the side or above an object. Just thinking out loud.


----------



## wjb3 (Apr 24, 2007)

uk_caver said:


> I'd wonder how much light (relatively speaking) would be needed from an auxilliary light to avoid being swamped by a main beam?
> 
> I'd assume that a fairly wide smooth flood might be best for the auxilliary, to avoid the irritation of an uncontrolled spot moving around (or not moving, as the case may be), but that would rather drop the brightness in any given direction.


 
With lights of different colors, it is possible to tell which shadow is cast by which light. A white headlamp might still wash out a single wavelength auxilliary light. Perhaps instead of mounting them on the belt buckle, on top of each boot or glove.

-wjb


----------

