# 1 Watt & 3 Watt the same??



## Robocop (Nov 26, 2007)

I recently received a light with a 1 watt emitter installed however it was labeled as a T-Bin 3 watt when sold. I asked the maker if they knew it was a one watt and maybe a mistake. I received a reply stating that often Lumileds sends out 1 watt emitters in place of 3 watt versions as some one watt emitters behave like a 3 watt under load. So basically the emitter I have is a one watt that is said to be as good as a 3 watt.....is this possible?

I noticed the leads were very thin such as my other 1 watt emitters and this is what caused me to question the emitter. The tint is a little warm and the output seems similiar to other one watt lights. So basically is there any way ceretain one watt emitters could be labeled and sold as a 3 watt and if so are they just as good ??


----------



## tonycollinet (Nov 26, 2007)

The only way this could be acceptable would be if the emitter were being reliably driven at 3W - eg 1A at 3V, or equivalent.

Even then, I'd feel ripped off.


----------



## Mark620 (Nov 26, 2007)

I would say..NO...it is fraudulent.
Get a refund or the correct part.


----------



## greenLED (Nov 26, 2007)

If the bin you have is any lower than S, it's a Lux I, not a LuxIII. What they told you doesn't sound right.


----------



## Robocop (Nov 26, 2007)

I assume they may have been using a one watt that puts out as much light as a 3 watt however not really sure. Even if I do have a one watt that is a good performer I would worry as to long term usage. If I remember correct the 3 watters had thicker leads and a different phosphourus coating for a reason.....again I know nothing of tech stuff.

I was told that lumileds sent them 1 watters that performed like a 3 watt emitter under power. I actually have a 3 watt that is a known 3 watt on a star ready for a swap however I was just curious. I received a very nice e-mail and I feel sure they would replace the light however that is really not necessary. 

So can anyone tell me if an emitter is classified as a one or three watt simply by its output in lumens or is it a physical difference in the actual build of the emitter. So basically if I bought a known 3 watt that was a poor performer would it be re-sold as a one watt? If I have a RYOK that puts out as much light as a TWOK would it be changed to a 3 watt classification or just labeled as a very good one watt emitter??


----------



## wasBlinded (Nov 26, 2007)

No one has been a able to discover any physical or electrical difference between current production Luxeon I ("1 watt") and Luxeon III ("3 watt") emitters. There was a time when the Luxeon I die rested on an aluminum slug which had inferior heat transfer characteristics (this was still reflected in the data sheets last time I looked), but now the Luxeon I die is on a plated copper slug just like the Luxeon III.

The Luxeon I star PCB is thinner than the Luxeon III star, but the emitters are the same as far as anyone can tell.

The difference between the two comes down to marketing. They all come off the same production lines using the same production techniques. Some are binned at 350 mA to give a Luxeon I and some are binned at 700 mA and sold as Luxeon III.

What this means is that a given emitter off the line might be sold as a Luxeon I or a Luxeon III, depending on market demand. An emitter binned as a Luxeon I SWOH could also be binned as a Luxeon III UWOJ. A Luxeon I RYOJ might just as easily have been binned and sold as a Luxeon III TYOK.


----------



## Robocop (Nov 27, 2007)

wasblinded thanks for the detailed response and it does make sense to me however I wonder as to why there is a very real physical difference between all of my 3 watt vs 1 watt emitters......looking at all of them ,and I have maybe 10 of each to compare, there is a very real difference in thickness of the leads. Every 3 watt I have shows much thicker leads and I wonder as to why they even bother if they are all basically the same??

I also notice every one of my 3 watters has a thicker star heat sink so again if they are the same why does lumileds make the binned 3 watters more robust both in the leads and heat sink??


----------



## Lightingguy321 (Nov 27, 2007)

wasBlinded: are you sure about that data, I do not believe that you could relabel a 1 watt of any bin to a 3 watt, Luxeon I emitters are rated at a maximum of 350mA constant current or 400mA pulsed. There is no way for a SWOH Luxeon I to have the equivalent performance of a UWOJ binned Luxeon III. Also, the Luxeon III in blue, green, and white can be driven at a maximum of 1 amp constant current, the tests are all ran at (from the data sheets) 700mA and 1000mA. Also note that the Luxeon I is mounted on a FR4 (epoxy core material) PCB. The Luxeon III is mounted on MC (metal core) PCB.


----------



## wasBlinded (Nov 27, 2007)

The Luxeon III Star has a thicker MCPCB because it is intended to be driven at higher current levels. The thickness of the star MCPCB allows the heat to be spread from the slug more efficiently.

You are right that the leads coming off the emitter a slightly different for the Lux III, but if you will put a Lux I and a Lux III under a microscope you will not be able to see a difference at the die level. The bond wires are the same.

Lightingguy321, I haven't seen any Luxeon I mounted on an epoxy core PCB, all of the ones I have examined have been mounted on an aluminum core PCB. I also think you are confusing the current the Lux I and Lux III are "rated" at, or benchmarked at for marketing, with what they are each actually capable of. As I said before, the Lux I data sheet appears to be woefully out of date and reflects a previous generation of product. As far as SWOH Lux I versus a UWOJ Lux III, I think if you will look at the curves of lumen output vs. current and current versus Vf that have been derived by measurement by a few CPFers, you will see that it would be very easy for an SWOH Lux I to fall into a UWOJ bin when the current is increased from 350 mA to 700 mA. 

I've had no trouble driving an SWOH emitter at 700 mA current levels to get performance equal to UWOJ emitters, and I've also been able to drive them at more than 1000 mA without apparent ill effects.

This has been hashed over many times before on CPF over the past year or three. If you are really interested, you can search and find the supporting data. (Search for posts by "NewBie")


----------



## Lightingguy321 (Nov 27, 2007)

The data sheet for the Luxeon I emitter has been updated recently (2006-2007). I still don't see how a SWOH Luxeon I can be binned as a UXOJ Luxeon III. Also I am not confusing driving currents with test currents. Typical one watt drive is 350mA. Typical three watt drive is either 700mA or 1000mA. Also Take a moment to look at the Vf requirement of the LED the SWOH Luxeon I needs 3.01 to 3.25 volts versus the UXOJ Luxeon III which requires 3.26 to ~3.50 volts to run. In this case, unless the Luxeon III is running at 350mA I still don't see the logic on how you could bin a high flux 1 watt as a 3 watt LED emitter. I will check out the post.


----------



## wasBlinded (Nov 27, 2007)

Look at the binning structure. U bin lumens are about 70% more than S bin. If you take a Lux I that achieves S bin at 350 mA, and increase current by 100% to 700 mA, you normally get about a 70% increase in lumen output (this can be divined from the Lumileds data sheets). There is your U bin Lux III.

As for the Vf, an LED which at 350 mA has a Vf of 3.1 will usually have a Vf of about 3.4 when driven at 700 mA. Now you have jumped from H bin on Vf to J bin. This can also be divined from the data sheets.

If you really want to convince yourself, get a DVM, constant current power supply, a light meter, and a Lux I and see how it all plays out. Or find the appropriate data already posted here on CPF.


----------



## Robocop (Nov 27, 2007)

I understand as to the output of a 1 watt being equal to a 3 watt however if I am reading this correct you have to use more power to the 1 watt for it to do so. I am curious if the long term effects of producing 3 watt results from a 1 watt emitter is worth the effort to do so.

If all emitters are basically the same why does lumileds even rate them on anything other than output and vf...Why even label one watt or 3 watt if they can all be driven at different levels for different results?

I have read many threads on numbers and figures and honestly it is hard to grasp for me at times. My point withn this thread was simply that I did not know how I should feel about receiving a light that was labeled as a 3 watt and had actually a one watt emitter. Without having a meter or anything I had to rely on my eyes for output as well as physical differences with the emitter itself. Sure I could overdrive the crap out of this light and probably get good numbers however with a true 3 watt would it not be easier and more efficiant to do that.??

This is an interesting thread to read and again I am already modding the light with a very nice TWOK so for now this thread is only for my curiousity.


----------



## wasBlinded (Nov 27, 2007)

Since there are no significant differences between a Luxeon I and a Luxeon III, I don't think there is any downside to driving a Luxeon I at Luxeon III levels. For best efficiency and lifetime, both should be well heat sinked at higher drive levels.

One reason to market the same animal as two different products at different current ratings is to make design simpler. Not only does Vf and lumen output change at different currents, but tint does too. The Luxeon that is a WO tint at 350 mA might be an XO or possibly a WA at 700 mA.

Lumileds has a profit incentive to foster the belief that a Lux III is really different from a Lux I.

If my flashlight came with an S bin Lux I, I would be much happier than if it came with a T bin Lux III - assuming that tint was favorable and Vf roughly the same at the light's designed drive level.


----------



## Robocop (Nov 27, 2007)

Ok let me make sure I have this right before I blow up some of my good luxeons....so all I have to do is take all of my 1 watt luxeons and run them at 700 mA and they are now the same as a 3 watt?

I have a few low vf such as a G Bin and was always afraid to put too much power to many of my 1 watt emitters.....if what some are saying is correct I can simply look at all of my emitters as 3 watt emitters depending on what power level I am using them with?

Basically what I am gathering from this is that it is the heat sink that makes the emitter either a 1 watt or 3 watt. When you say the lumileds labeled 3 watt emitters are designed for more current does that simply mean they take a regular old 1 watt and put it on a thicker heat sink star? Now it has better heat sinking ability thus it can be ran harder and called a 3 watt?

Sorry for the questions however I am having a hard time believing that all emitters start out the same.....if this is the case many of us have wasted much money in the past paying higher prices for the 3 watt emitters when we could have got the same results with a 1 watt.


----------



## chris_m (Nov 28, 2007)

Am I in a time warp here? I understand the arguments why people consider Luxeons to be better than Cree/SSC LEDs, but I'm not actually convinced these matter for anybody other than white wall hunters. In which case, given you're considering modding your light with a genuine Luxeon 3, why not skip that almost completely pointless step and put in a SSC P4 instead, to get better than Luxeon 3 light output at Luxeon 1 drive levels?



Robocop said:


> Ok let me make sure I have this right before I blow up some of my good luxeons....



What exactly is a "good Luxeon" (that's obviously not a Rebel 100)?


----------



## Robocop (Nov 28, 2007)

chris_m you asked as to what is a good luxeon and for me it is tint. I have several good 1 watt luxeons with perfect tint. I purchased several lights recently and I have a few that are Cree/SSC type and I really like them. I would like to mod this with a Cree or Seoul however I happen to like the tint of all of my 3 watt emitters and honestly I have to find something to use them for. I already have 2 AAA Cree lights and yes they are nice and bright but really not any better than my other 3 watt lights.


----------



## chris_m (Nov 28, 2007)

What do you use your lights for? I'm still to be convinced that tint matters that much unless you're a white wall hunter (or using LEDs for interior lighting). For anything I can think of to do with a light, double the lumens (or double the runtime) beats a nice tint hands down.



Robocop said:


> I already have 2 AAA Cree lights and yes they are nice and bright but really not any better than my other 3 watt lights.



Are you comparing apples and oranges there? AAA lights tend to run LEDs at 1W (at most), so if they're as bright as your 3W Luxeons that should tell you something!


----------



## wasBlinded (Nov 28, 2007)

chris_m said:


> What do you use your lights for? I'm still to be convinced that tint matters that much unless you're a white wall hunter (or using LEDs for interior lighting). For anything I can think of to do with a light, double the lumens (or double the runtime) beats a nice tint hands down.
> 
> 
> 
> Are you comparing apples and oranges there? AAA lights tend to run LEDs at 1W (at most), so if they're as bright as your 3W Luxeons that should tell you something!


 
Chris, what do your posts have to do with the subject of this thread? Are you trying to perform some kind of "public service"? Though you may not intend it, your posts sound like trolling.


----------



## Lightingguy321 (Nov 28, 2007)

Agreed, Luxeon I and III emitters are almost the same. I am going off to buy my self some SWOHs now along with a few SSC P4s. WasBlinded, would a older style luxeon I LD (binned Q3K) (it is i think around A QXOK or QWOK in new binning terms) a good candidate for over drive?


----------



## Robocop (Nov 28, 2007)

Chris_m I have lights I use on duty that are incandescent with a few luxeons as back ups. In that capacity sheer output is important however for many of my other lights they are simply used around the house, camping, or whatever else I can find.

Honestly most of my smaller lights were bought simply as a collector and for me to enjoy as a hobby. I like modding them and will often buy a cheap host just to play with.

You have your opinion however for me tint is very important on my smaller lights. Personally I feel a lower power crystal white or even slightly cool tint looks brighter than a warmer yellow tint of greater power. This leads me to my next question along the lines of this thread....

The one watt labeled as a three I received has a very warm almost yellow tint. This was my sole reason for wanting to modify it in the first place with a whiter tinted luxeon. If what others here have said is true if I have good heatsinking and put say 700 mA to this suspect one watt it should improve the tint correct??

The emitter I wish to use for the swap is a TYOK or maybe even a TYOK and has the color I like when tested. I am now wondering if I swap this emitter and power it at a lower power will the 3 watt shift its tint to warmer? Maybe I should leave well enough alone however I have learned much from this thread.....thanks again.


----------



## wasBlinded (Nov 28, 2007)

Lightingguy -
There is a good chance that older low dome Luxeon has the old aluminum slug, and so be less suitable for overdriving than current production Luxeon I devices. I'm not sure its worth making an effort to overdrive an old Q bin Luxeon. At 700 mA it would probably only just equal an S bin driven at 350 mA. That being said, CPFers were overdriving them long before I found this forum.
Robocop - higher current drive will move tint toward the blue, but it may not be dramatic.


----------



## Lightingguy321 (Nov 29, 2007)

Are the newer slugs identifiable by the round heatsink base on the back of the emitter versus the square, last time I checked around on CPF on the subject I remember the new Luxeons are all on rounded (Circular) studs versus squarish slugs. So would new R-bin and S-Bin luxeons be good candidates?


----------

