# Lithium vs Alkaline for emergency



## Berneck1 (Oct 12, 2014)

Every time I go through my emergency supplies I'm almost always guaranteed to find some leaking alkalines. This time I found many more than usual. I think I threw away 200 batteries today. I'm starting to realize that perhaps I'm being penny-wise and pound-foolish. 

I'm thinking of moving to just storing lithium primaries. I have read that there is a much less chance of them leaking. Also, that they supply more constant power and have a much longer shelf-life. 

Curious as to what people think. I have found that the lithiums are about 3x the price. However, if they aren't prone to leaking, and have a much longer shelf-life then it almost becomes a no-brainer. Thoughts? Am I missing anything?

Btw, I use Eneloops for everyday use, so I'm not rotating my batteries. I'm simply storing them in case there is no power.


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## N8N (Oct 12, 2014)

For emergency use, no doubt in my mind that fewer lithium cells is better than more alkaline cells.


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## Lynx_Arc (Oct 12, 2014)

I haven't heard of anyone who has claimed to have a substantial lithium primary battery leak at all, only rumors of them leaking and then no claims that the leak was damaging so I would say that lithium leaks are in the 1% or less area of thought. I used to have a lot of alkalines in case of emergency and when there was higher quality non LSD nimh batteries and I got some and a fast smart charger with a car cord the last major power outage lasting a record 4.5 days (record for me) I used no alkalines up at all just recharged AA and AAA nimh cells about 24 of them. I would suggest instead of investing in such a huge amount of alkalines consider investing in a car charging system as unless you have no access to 12v power at all then you can use eneloops and recharge them endlessly once in awhile starting the engine to recharge the car battery. 
Lithium primaries make excellent backup for sure lasting in storage beyond 10 to even 20 years with perhaps some capacity loss by that time but even if they only give 80% of full power at that time they would still be doing their job. As for not rotating alkalines my advice is to mostly do away with them and buy more eneloops and rotate them as alkalines stored over a year or two IMO is just asking for them to leak on you. For the price of 200 batteries you could even consider a solar charger.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Oct 12, 2014)

Definitely don't use alkalines for emergency use, unless you keep a fresh supply of them and don't store them in your devices. Lithiums will get the job done, but are expensive.

Since you already use Eneloops, why not use them? They keep 70% charge for 5 years, so should be good for emergency use as long as you charge them up every few years. And, they won't leak, so you can store them in your devices (as long as they don't have a parasitic "stand by" drain).

My emergency batteries are a drawer full of AA and AAA Eneloops.


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## Rosoku Chikara (Oct 12, 2014)

- How many cells are you generally keeping in storage, and what is their intended purpose?

- Whatever device or devices you are attempting to keep in power, how long are you hoping to keep and use your cells after the electric grid goes down?

- Do you live in a cold enough climate such that you might need your cells to function at sub zero temperature?

- Are you keeping so many cells in storage because you are thinking to use them as some kind of "currency" in trade?

Depending on the answers to the above questions, you may find that Eneloops with their ability to retain "reasonable" capacity after 5 or more years of storage to be the most cost effective solution.

In my own personal case, almost everything I have purchased is powered by either AA or AAA Eneloops. And, I have plenty of low cost adapters to convert AAAs to AA. (Also adapters to convert AAs to C and D, even though I don't actually own any devices that use C and D cells.) 

This results in an enormous number of Eneloops around the house at all times in "non-essential" applications ranging from clocks, remote controls, wireless keyboards and mice, timers, thermometers, scales, etc. etc. (Not to mention a substantial number of flashlights.) Every now and then (at least once a year) I make certain that everything has a full charge. In the event of a long-term power failure, I believe that I can rob enough cells from "non-essential" devices to keep two or three efficient flashlights functioning for weeks, or even months. I also have DC chargers that can be easily powered by any automobile battery. So, for as long as gasoline were available, I could continue to recharge when desired. Beyond that, I would assume that I would be heating my home and cooking over an open fire, so that the primary light source would likely be such a fire.

There is the issue of initial investment costs, but Eneloops should eventually pay for themselves (often several times over), and I have not had to purchase a single Alkaline cell in many years.


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## archimedes (Oct 12, 2014)

At this point, I have transitioned away from alkaline batteries to various alternatives, for about 99.9% of all purposes....


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## ven (Oct 12, 2014)

I confess to not being an expert,but for me eneloops make best sense its what i have stored anyway............


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## hazza (Oct 12, 2014)

I like other people above, I've moved (or am moving) to Eneloops for the vast majority of things. However, I still feel more confident with lithium primaries for a couple of 'real' emergency fall back things. 

As someone above said, Eneloops can quickly pay for themselves so make sense financially for most things. If you're happier keeping a few lithium primaries around as well, as I am, then it's easy enough to just buy small numbers when they are on sale. It's not like they need replacing very often! Between the two, you're sorted.


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## Berneck1 (Oct 12, 2014)

Thanks everybody. I think you solidified my thinking. 

I think I'll probably split between Eneloops and lithium primaries. In the long run, the money I save not replacing alkalines more than justifies the cost. I have always thought about going "all Eneloop." However, the reason I still want primaries is because I have some elderly relatives and some always unprepared neighbors that need batteries from time to time. I'm certainly not going to give them my Eneloops... Hahaha


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## mcnair55 (Oct 12, 2014)

My stance on Alkaline is well known and they never cause an issue to me but i would never even consider them for long term emergency use,personally i would go the Eneloop route and adopt a strict code of say every 3 to 6 months give them a quick top up charge,just pot a reminder on your mobile phone to check your stash in 3 to 6 months time.


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## Berneck1 (Oct 12, 2014)

Yeah, that's what I do. About every six months I top off all of my batteries. 


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## Timothybil (Oct 12, 2014)

Right now Battery Junction is doing an 'as long as they last' deal on lithium AA and AAA primaries. I don't remember the exact prices, but I do know it was about a dollar and a half for AAs in batches of 20.


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## mcnair55 (Oct 13, 2014)

Timothybil said:


> Right now Battery Junction is doing an 'as long as they last' deal on lithium AA and AAA primaries. I don't remember the exact prices, but I do know it was about a dollar and a half for AAs in batches of 20.



Personally i find Lithium ok ish but nothing special considering they run away with your pants when you buy them here in England.My glove box light has Lithium in but do not use them any more in other lights due to cost.


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## ven (Oct 13, 2014)

As far as i know lithium AA offer better performance and offer a weight advantage being lighter along with better storage over alki. But its not for an edc(reg weight) so in an emergency,and depending on what that is your possibly not going to be thinking 100%. So for me the simplest solution is the best,still to me loops offer that. As said just every 6 month,even annual top ups should be more than sufficient imo .................just what ever works best for you

If everything is loops, it certainly keeps things more simple............and i would prefer the easiest option come time of any emergency. With you having loops,and know you can depend on them,it takes away another concern other cells can bring long term.


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## MidnightDistortions (Oct 31, 2014)

I plan on keeping Eneloops as emergencies and topping them off as needed. I probably won't ever need alkalines but i keep a couple D sized Duracells in their original packaging just in case and taking note of the best used by date. I haven't set it up yet but i plan on putting a checklist together and then regularly checking the Eneloops monthly when stored and after 8 months checking them weekly to make sure they still have a charge. With that being said, the easiest way of making sure they are charged is by rotating the batteries every so often to ensure they are charged and ready to go in an emergency. Keeping an extra stash of Eneloops will ensure you will have power no matter what happens.


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## UnderPar (Oct 31, 2014)

For me, I use rechargeable li-ions & Eneloop NiMH in my lights but I also have their equivalent sizes for spare & a handful of CR123A primaries as backup for the 18650 & 16650 powered lights. Of course, i also have new AA & AAA Eneloops on stock for emergency purposes.


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## UnderPar (Oct 31, 2014)

Btw, the only time I use the Alkalie batteries is when they are packaged together with the light when bought. Other than that, I prefer to use the li-ions or NiMH. That is why, I do not buy lights that doesn't support there battery chemistries.


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## reppans (Oct 31, 2014)

Day to day, I use 14500s and Eneloops for my lights, and rather than stock pile primaries, or pre-charged Eneloop, I just have a couple of solar chargers and 12V chargers. My back-up for my back-up plan is just scavenging half used Alkalines (AA, AAA, and 9Vs) from the myriad of household devices. As a sub-/low- lumen fan, I could last an awful long time just on that.


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## TEEJ (Oct 31, 2014)

Yeah, alkaleaks for emergencies could result in no power for emergencies, and the device they were in not working when needed either due to the destructive corrosion, etc......so, not Plan A for sure.

The Eneloops and primary li-ions have 5-10 year shelf lives, and are a safer bet.

A lot depends on what "emergencies" you are preparing for of course, and, of course, what light's (Or other items) you'll be using the cells for, etc.

If rotating anyway....my 18650 seem to be holding 90+ charge even a year later for some I let go to see.


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## UnderPar (Oct 31, 2014)

Li-ions and NiMHs are way to go for emergency purposes . . . . .:twothumbs


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## MidnightDistortions (Nov 2, 2014)

You can definitely store flashlights with Eneloops in your car without fearing leakage or having to replace them. Just charge them and they are back in action. I plan on having an emergency charging kit, solar and crank in case i can't charge any batteries in a power outage (which would be rare if i had charged Eneloops laying around). The hard part will be to ensure the batteries do not overcharge and i can charge them individually. I don't have many applications for Li-ions, but Eneloops have proven to be a good replacement for AA and AAA alkalines .


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## mcnair55 (Nov 2, 2014)

UnderPar said:


> Li-ions and NiMHs are way to go for emergency purposes . . . . .:twothumbs



Hopefully will never have to rely on you in an emergency,I really think you have not thought this through properly.


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## Rosoku Chikara (Nov 2, 2014)

mcnair55 said:


> Hopefully will never have to rely on you in an emergency,I really think you have not thought this through properly.



Help me here. I am having some difficulty understanding this post. How does *UnderPar*'s statment about NiMH differ from what you yourself said in a previous post in this thread:



mcnair55 said:


> ...long term emergency use,personally i would go the Eneloop route and adopt a strict code of say every 3 to 6 months give them a quick top up charge...<snip>



I don't really have much experience with Li-ion cells, but I believe that they may have relatively low LSD rates as well... So, what is exactly so horrible about *UnderPar*'s statement that he believes: "Li-ions and NiMHs are way to go for emergency purposes . . . "

Unless you can explain further, I feel your post was unnecessarily harsh.


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## StarHalo (Nov 2, 2014)

- Leave batteries out of flashlights where possible; for the ready-for-emergency drawer lights that must be stored with batteries, first choice is lithium primary, followed closely by Eneloops. Li-ions can work if it's just you, but not in a family situation where the light may be left on indefinitely, or the battery thrown away when it dims.

- Once the power is out and you're busy multitasking everything without utilities, battery type becomes less important - the ceiling-bounced family room light/lantern will need a refresh every 3-6 hours [in the absence of ambient light], so you may as well keep it simple and burn through some alkalines. No worries about charge status or recharging, just pop in a new set and return to your previous task.

- No rechargeable cells in extreme temperature conditions, which specifically includes the interior of a car; lithium primaries only, and store the light where even indirect sunlight cannot reach it.

- The simple analog radio will become your best friend in an extended outage, your sole source of updates for news and entertainment for morale. A good emergency radio can pull over 200 hours from a set of cells being a very low drain application, which is where alkalines rule, but some vigilance will be required in the later days to avoid leaking/swelling.


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## mcnair55 (Nov 2, 2014)

Rosoku Chikara said:


> Help me here. I am having some difficulty understanding this post. How does *UnderPar*'s statment about NiMH differ from what you yourself said in a previous post in this thread:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



In a true emergency situation perhaps where there is an outage for hours even days Li-ions and standard Nimh are reliant on charging more so in the nimh case so it stands to reason your best bet is with Lithium and Alkies and of course the Eneloop type that will retain its energy for a considerable period of time.When making a survival bag food items need really thinking about,common sense really.

If the emergency is short term my original reply stands no Alkies in my stash bag but I would be robbing them from every consumer gadget in my place as a back up if I felt something longer was in the air.


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## TEEJ (Nov 2, 2014)

mcnair55 said:


> In a true emergency situation perhaps where there is an outage for hours even days Li-ions and standard Nimh *are reliant on charging* more so in the nimh case so it stands to reason your best bet is with Lithium and Alkies and of course the Eneloop type that will retain its energy for a considerable period of time.When making a survival bag food items need really thinking about,common sense really.
> 
> If the emergency is short term my original reply stands no Alkies in my stash bag but I would be robbing them from every consumer gadget in my place as a back up if I felt something longer was in the air.



That makes no sense, as its BETTER to have a cell that once drained, CAN be recharged, than a cell that once drained, is thrown away. If you DO need something that can be stored for a really long time, the primary lithiums STILL win over any rechargeable as far as storage life...

...but, also consider how much power a 90% charged primary li-ion can provide, vs a 70% charged rechargeable li-ion, etc...and how much LIGHT each might be capable of.

For some applications, a long period of low drain is what you want, for others, searching for example, you might NEED high power capacities.



I use solar rechargers, and car chargers, etc, so, in real outages (Say lasting months as we had after the hurricanes around here...) the rechargeables saved the day, as you'd need a ton of disposable cells to take their place.

So, sure, any port in a storm, but if you have a stash of charged rechargeable Nimh etc...and a way to recharge them with the power still out (Cig lighter or solar, whatever...), you can have a supply of cell power indefinitely. 

If only taking about the scenario where a light and cells are stashed for a decade and ignored unless there's a disaster, as opposed to the scenarios where people were discussing rotation of stock and periodic recharging, etc...sure, the cells that hold charges the longest make the most sense, but, again that's EXACTLY the wrong scenario for alkaleaks...and, the OP is about alkaleaks vs lithiums.

If its primary Li-ons vs alakleaks for an ignored long-term storage scenario, there's no contest at all, the Li-ion primaries win that election....as they keep their charges the longest, and, won't leak and destroy the light, etc. Not putting cells into lights is best for storage of course, but, again, it depends upon what sort of "emergency" you are preparing for.


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## MidnightDistortions (Nov 2, 2014)

TEEJ said:


> I use solar rechargers, and car chargers, etc, so, in real outages (Say lasting months as we had after the hurricanes around here...) the rechargeables saved the day, as you'd need a ton of disposable cells to take their place.
> 
> So, sure, any port in a storm, but if you have a stash of charged rechargeable Nimh etc...and a way to recharge them with the power still out (Cig lighter or solar, whatever...), you can have a supply of cell power indefinitely.



Yeah, this is definitely the best way to survive in any emergency. I also suggest hand crank chargers as if you didn't have any way of using solar or car chargers at the time. That way you got power in any situation. I need to get a proper hand crank charger (to avoid overcharging the battery) or have older Eneloops on that while checking newer ones and keeping them in a charged state. For now i just check on them periodically to ensure they are charged or refreshed/rotating so there's always a charged set on hand. I need a charger for my car too so there's a way to recharge batteries in there as well but for now i always keep a mini Maglite on me in case i need an emergency light.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Nov 3, 2014)

MidnightDistortions said:


> Yeah, this is definitely the best way to survive in any emergency. I also suggest hand crank chargers as if you didn't have any way of using solar or car chargers at the time. That way you got power in any situation. I need to get a proper hand crank charger (to avoid overcharging the battery) or have older Eneloops on that while checking newer ones and keeping them in a charged state. For now i just check on them periodically to ensure they are charged or refreshed/rotating so there's always a charged set on hand. I need a charger for my car too so there's a way to recharge batteries in there as well but for now i always keep a mini Maglite on me in case i need an emergency light.



If you're serious about cranking chargers, I wouldn't bother with a hand crank. Way too much effort for very little power. A stationary bike that you could pedal for power would be more efficient.


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## TEEJ (Nov 3, 2014)

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> If you're serious about cranking chargers, I wouldn't bother with a hand crank. Way too much effort for very little power. A stationary bike that you could pedal for power would be more efficient.



LOL

I now have a mental picture of Gilligan pedaling away while the Professor is doing something that required electricity.


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## Yamabushi (Nov 3, 2014)

TEEJ said:


> ...but, also consider how much power a 90% charged primary li-ion can provide, ...
> 
> If its primary Li-ons vs alakleaks ... the Li-ion primaries win that election....


No such thing as Li-ion primaries. I think you mean to say lithium primaries (Li/FeS2 or Li/MnO2 ).


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## MidnightDistortions (Nov 3, 2014)

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> If you're serious about cranking chargers, I wouldn't bother with a hand crank. Way too much effort for very little power. A stationary bike that you could pedal for power would be more efficient.



I think a Capacitor hooked up to a hand crank circuit helps. It only takes a few minutes for me to charge my hand crank NOAA weather radio that has about a capacity of 100-300mAh that lasts about 5 minutes. It's not long but then the batteries used do not have much capacity to begin with. I could easily wire some Eneloops to really find out how long it'll take to charge them which would most likely be more than 5 hours. The idea though of having a hand crank system is to replace the used energy and not wait until the batteries are dead before hand cranking them back to life. Though i will say that using a stationary bike will be useful in recharging 12 volt deep cycle marine batteries.


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## Kestrel (Nov 4, 2014)

I believe that another advantage of Eneloops for emergency situations are *proven* reliability of the cells that I actually have in my posession - let me explain.

I test run a set of Eneloops in my desired application, verifying expected runtimes, etc.
I then give them a full charge and store for a long term - a year or so, with my stock rotation reflecting my normal usage. 
Upon rotation & use, I can verify the LSD function of the cells - how much runtime did I actually get out of the expected ~70% +/- retained charge.

In this situation, I know my Eneloops will perform - each cell has been tested & verified by me. I cannot be sure that one of my Lithium primary AA's won't be a dud. The more I think about it, the more confident I am with my stored Eneloops.


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## cland72 (Nov 4, 2014)

I think this question might be actually a little different than what the OP is asking. 

Re: Alkalines in an emergency: which I think that everyone can agree they would use an alkaline if their Eneloops and lithium primaries were unavailable and/or depleted without a means of recharge. 

The OP is specifically speaking to STORAGE for a future emergency. IMO, I think stocking up on some lithiums is a good idea, but more importantly, have a set of Eneloops you rotate when you need new batteries week to week, and ensure they are topped off after being discharged. Then, in an emergency, you'd have plenty of lithiums to supplement your Eneloops.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Nov 4, 2014)

Kestrel said:


> I believe that another advantage of Eneloops for emergency situations are *proven* reliability of the cells that I actually have in my posession
> 
> In this situation, I know my Eneloops will perform - each cell has been tested & verified by me. I cannot be sure that one of my Lithium primary AA's won't be a dud.



That's a good point, that I never really considered before you mentioned it. The chances of one of my Eneloops going from "good" to "bad" over a single charge cycle is extremely unlikely. It's much more likely that a primary lithium of alkaline will be a dud, and I won't know it until I use it.




cland72 said:


> The OP is specifically speaking to STORAGE for a future emergency. IMO, I think stocking up on some lithiums is a good idea, but more importantly, have a set of Eneloops you rotate when you need new batteries week to week, and ensure they are topped off after being discharged. Then, in an emergency, you'd have plenty of lithiums to supplement your Eneloops.



If you have plenty of charged Eneloops ready to go, you probably don't need lithiums of alkalines.

While lithium primaries do store well, I've never seen the point of them if you have other cells to use in an emergency. Where I live, they're twice the cost of Eneloops. Simply not worth it.

I can understand someone using them in something where maximum run time is important, and you can't carry extra cells or recharge cells. For example, if I was going on a multi-day hike and didn't want to carry extra batteries.

Also, they're good for devices where a high voltage is required. But that's pretty rare, and I wouldn't buy something that couldn't take 1.2v cells.


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## Lynx_Arc (Nov 5, 2014)

I think I agree with the using eneloops almost entirely vs lithiums vs alkalines in many cases but disagree some in a few instances where primaries do have their advantages. For cheap lights having to feed power to supply others (family and friends etc) you can find yourself having to lecture and keep track of them otherwise either they get lost or thrown away or the device (light usually) they are in gets lost also or even broken and tossed with cell inside. If you have a discipline for eneloops they are ideal but for those who are not it may be advantageous to have lithium cells at least and alkalines and cheap lights may even be advantageous economically so that your better lights remain... yours and your nice eneloop supply doesn't vanish. 
I think that the 70% figure of capacity in storage over time is a slight drawback in that under moderate loads a lithium primary will have perhaps 2500mah for a AA while a long termed stored 1900mah eneloop would equate to about 1400 mah or about roughly 60% the capacity. With this in mind you would need not quite twice as much eneloops for similar runtime or have to recharge them 1-2 times a year so as to keep them at perhaps 85-90% capacity which would equate to 1600-1700 mah or about 65% (2/3rds roughly) capacity. This would have to be kept in mind when stocking up on them. I think alkalines would get more complicated trying to consider capacity vs eneloop and lithiums as their capacity drops considerably under heavier loads such that a new alkaline in a device could find itself with almost identical (or less) runtime than an eneloop stored for a few years. In other words it could take twice as many alkalines to suffice for heavier drain devices than stored eneloops. In lower drain devices the advantage tilts away from eneloops quickly but with today's modern LED lights using low and super low modes the runtimes can be such that with even eneloops stored for years you don't need a lot of extras. 
I still recommend making sure you can charge eneloops when power is lost (like a car charger) as this can reduce the amount of them needed a lot such that one could more easily get by without any primary batteries at all for the most part.


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## cland72 (Nov 5, 2014)

WalkIntoTheLight said:


> If you have plenty of charged Eneloops ready to go, you probably don't need lithiums of alkalines.




That's like saying if you are putting money in your 401k, you probably don't need to put money in savings. It is always prudent to put your eggs in more than one basket...


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## MidnightDistortions (Nov 6, 2014)

Lynx_Arc said:


> I think I agree with the using eneloops almost entirely vs lithiums vs alkalines in many cases but disagree some in a few instances where primaries do have their advantages. For cheap lights having to feed power to supply others (family and friends etc) you can find yourself having to lecture and keep track of them otherwise either they get lost or thrown away or the device (light usually) they are in gets lost also or even broken and tossed with cell inside. If you have a discipline for eneloops they are ideal but for those who are not it may be advantageous to have lithium cells at least and alkalines and cheap lights may even be advantageous economically so that your better lights remain... yours and your nice eneloop supply doesn't vanish.
> I think that the 70% figure of capacity in storage over time is a slight drawback in that under moderate loads a lithium primary will have perhaps 2500mah for a AA while a long termed stored 1900mah eneloop would equate to about 1400 mah or about roughly 60% the capacity. With this in mind you would need not quite twice as much eneloops for similar runtime or have to recharge them 1-2 times a year so as to keep them at perhaps 85-90% capacity which would equate to 1600-1700 mah or about 65% (2/3rds roughly) capacity. This would have to be kept in mind when stocking up on them. I think alkalines would get more complicated trying to consider capacity vs eneloop and lithiums as their capacity drops considerably under heavier loads such that a new alkaline in a device could find itself with almost identical (or less) runtime than an eneloop stored for a few years. In other words it could take twice as many alkalines to suffice for heavier drain devices than stored eneloops. In lower drain devices the advantage tilts away from eneloops quickly but with today's modern LED lights using low and super low modes the runtimes can be such that with even eneloops stored for years you don't need a lot of extras.
> I still recommend making sure you can charge eneloops when power is lost (like a car charger) as this can reduce the amount of them needed a lot such that one could more easily get by without any primary batteries at all for the most part.



You do have a point there that if you do have family that tends to throw out batteries no matter if they were rechargeable or not and having to talk to every person in your household would have to be telling them how to keep track of them. If you got older rechargeable cells that do not work as good that might be a good learning tool, telling them to not toss them out even though they might run bad or the performance is degrading but at least you don't have to worry about losing your stash of good rechargeables. Lithiums may be more beneficial in this during emergencies, however wouldn't you have to ensure that the lithiums won't fry the device as i thought the voltage is higher?

Even when using rechargeables i have lost a few of them, maybe it was due to my roommate grabbing some batteries and finding there was a charge on some of mine but just never told me about it. There is a fairly easier way of educating those who are used to using alkalines that when the device stops running they'll toss the old ones and put new ones in, a good way to stop that from happening is putting in a little sticky note over the batteries so they are aware that they are rechargeables and set them somewhere safe. It gets harder in a business area as some people do not have enough regard to keep the batteries safe or they think they are and they get lost instead.

I don't see any benefits with Alkalines over Eneloops or Lithium batteries as i buy more Eneloops i plan on seeing on how long they can stay in storage before requiring a recharge by leaving a set of 2 or 4 alone and see how long they hold out for. Long as they have at least 70% Eneloops are much more reliable than Alkalines, if you got a way to recharge Eneloops the cost of investing in them is alone a better reason why Alkalines should be phased out. Other than needing them in smoke/carbon dioxide detectors they don't really serve a purpose for me anymore.


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## Kestrel (Nov 6, 2014)

I have a set of 2005 (IIRC, by date code) Eneloop AAA's that are NIP; when they hit the 10 year mark I'll be sending them to someone for analysis.

I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't at least ~55% with reasonable agreement between all four.
Keep in mind that we've seen many instances of 10-year old CR123's which were below this level, and were considerably less consistent from cell to cell.


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## Lynx_Arc (Nov 6, 2014)

MidnightDistortions said:


> Lithiums may be more beneficial in this during emergencies, however wouldn't you have to ensure that the lithiums won't fry the device as i thought the voltage is higher?


There are some things that are voltage sensitive to the higher output of lithiums, and it adds up the more cells you have in series but most things are ok with the.


> I don't see any benefits with Alkalines over Eneloops or Lithium batteries as i buy more Eneloops i plan on seeing on how long they can stay in storage before requiring a recharge by leaving a set of 2 or 4 alone and see how long they hold out for. Long as they have at least 70% Eneloops are much more reliable than Alkalines, if you got a way to recharge Eneloops the cost of investing in them is alone a better reason why Alkalines should be phased out. Other than needing them in smoke/carbon dioxide detectors they don't really serve a purpose for me anymore.


You are lucky at being able to do away with alkalines for eneloops as I have some devices that last 6 months on eneloops and 2 years on alkalines and every time I have to change the batteries I have to reset the time settings on them so I have gone back to alkalines on these things. I am still going to keep around a limited amount of alkalines but only a fraction of what I used to have before I got LSD nimh cells. I have tried to move to devices that eneloops are useful in replacing things that don't like the lower voltage. I also have alkalines for cheap lights that I can throw away like in my car my more expensive stuff gets lithium batteries and my most drained devices get eneloops. I purposed bout a new sony alarm clock that used a 2032 for backup replacing a clock that used a 9v alkaline. It takes awhile and costs a little to replace finicky devices so that you can drop alkaline usage to near nothing.


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## Jbirk (Nov 6, 2014)

*Battery Question (Alkaline Leaks)*

Thread Merge - Norm

Hi, I am back... Been coming here off and on for probably a Decade. Post a little then go away, but I ALWAYS find myself reading the wealth of info here each time I am curious about something.


Here is my history with batteries:

Growing up as a kid, I pretty much had tons of toys that burnt through batteries. Crappy incandescent flashlights, 4 or 6 C-cell sized bomb boxes, etc. At one time even a silly remote control car that took AA's (ouch - should have felt sorry for my parents back then in the early 90's).

Anyway, growing up, we ALWAYS used Alkaline batteries simply because my Dad thought they were great - they didn't last long at all, but NEVER leaked.

*I was sold on Duracell being the very best money can buy and thought that stupid tester was neat!* 

*******

Fast forward to when I joined this site way back in 2003 (lol); I was in High School. CDs were still popular with MP3s a rather recent trend in portable electronics. I had so many CDs (and blank CDs) that is what I used...

Back then I was buying batteries and hated the idea of spending money constantly on batteries! I couldn't stand those damned NiCd type friends used because they took overnight to charge, came dead, had low voltage 1.2v (or so I thought), and NiMh were very new. I believe Energizer was coming out with a 1200mah AA and proudly putting that on the side of batteries!

Anyway, I chose the Ray-O-Vac rechargeable alkaline and thought they were great because they realistically recharged maybe 15 times, came charged, had similar to Alkaline capacity...

I then switched to the Ray-O-Vac 1 hour charger with the 1600 mah NiMh or 1800NiMh and ultimately the Duracell 15 minute thing with the 2400mah and 2600mah NiMh and though they were great except the blasted things went dead in a couple weeks not using them, which lead me back to trusty alkaline, which ALWAYS works when new!

*************

Here is the thing. I NEVER in those years had ANY leaks!

* I would do stupid stuff like mixing and matching in a clock-radio device that took three (3), it might get a, Ray-O-Vac, Duracell, and a Kirkland (all of varying states of discharge - no doubt). If the blasted thing got too quiet, I would replace maybe one(1) battery if that's what I had!  Heck, I even got the dumb idea to put some small pieces of foil over the top of regular alkalines and pop them into my Ray-O-Vac charger. - Amazingly, it worked!!


^^^ And NEVER any leaks!


*****************************

Fast forward to current years:

Bought a 40-pack of Ultralast several years ago at Fry's for like $11. Some leaked. I concluded Ultra-Last must be the worse ever made and would buy something else. Burnt though them and included them with Christmas and Birthday gifts 

Bought a 20ish pack of A Ray-O-Vac in 2011. Put them my Analog Atomic Clock (1), Oregon Scientific Projection clock (4), remote transmitter (2), Midland Weather Radio (4), in a Sony Radio (4), D-Cells in my TK-80 (4), D-Cells in a Maglight (2)... AAAs in a Dorchy Flashlight (3)

CVS brand AAAs in a graphing calculator (4), another flashlight (6).


Long story short... I had white goo in my weather radio when I changed it the firs time a year or so ago with Ray-O-Vac.

2012 I then bought Duracell, THE TRUSTED BRAND (that never leaked as a kid)


2012 Replaced them in that weather radio with the Duralock Copper Tops... same in 
2012 Pro-Actively replaced the Ray-O-Vac with more Ray-O-Vac in the projection alarm clock


********************

This week:

The damned Projection clock stops telling the outdoor temp (time to check the remote sensor)... the display is faded (time to check internal batteries)

1. The projection clock has four leaking Ray-O-Vac - DAMN
2. Its remote sender, which got batteries at the same time and has been outside in probably 15F to 115F, rain, shine, snow, wind, etc... just dead (NO LEAKS)
3. I check the weather radio and notice a battery icon, so I go to replace the batteries WHITE PASTE EVERYWHERE. (Duracell Duraleaks)
4. Check the Atomic Clock; it's fine (change battery anyway)
5. Check Graphing Calculator LEAK (but not from the CVS batteries - its from a prior set)
6. Check the Sony Radio (NO LEAK Ray-O-Vacs)
7. Check the TK-80 (one battery has a slight quarter cubic CM area of discoloration but no leak - remove battery because that's probably a LEAK caught while benign)
8. Mag-Light 2-D no leaks -same batteries.
9. Check a postal/shipping scale that has 4x C-cell Duracell Copper-Tops from around 2009... NO LEAKS (Not the new Duraleaks)



*****************

MY Conclusion:

Ray-O-Vac Alkaline leak the worst and the most. I will use my supply, but I will NEVER buy another Ray-O-Vac regular alkaline.

Duracell really let me down with their Duralock AAs, yet I have to this day still NEVER seen a regular copper-top leak. Regardless, I did pull the two traditional coppertop AAs (near new/rarely used) from my AR-15's EO-TECH optic ($400). I was a bit panicked when I checked it, but atlas the good old copper-top are in mint looking condition (REMOVED THEM ANYWAY).


Duracell's Quality went downhill with the Duralock, Coppertop... which lasts 10-years in storage then leaks and ruins your devices. I don't care if the new one runs my radio or clock a week longer or can last 2 or 3 more years in storage. I am DONE with the regular Duracell Alkaline.


The only batteries I have had no trouble with are 9v... the internal AAAAs probably leak internally and invisibly within the container; I bet!


What is a safe, primary battery?


I went out and bought the following:

Ray-O-Vac Heay Duty (never tried these):

1 x 4 pack of AAA
2 x 4 packs of AA
2 x 2 packs of C
2 x 2 packs of D
1 x 1 pack of 9v

My thoughts are that all my flashlights I use are 18650 or 123, so in the unlikely event I use a D-Cell flashlight I am probably going to use it only once and the Heavy Duty will probably get one (1) task accomplished like changing a tire or fueling a generator.

Everything that takes a 9v either has a light to tell you it needs changed or it chirps. If it doesn't last, I don't care.


The highest drain devices I have are clocks, a radio (I keep plugged in unless the power is out), the projection alarm clock (plugged-in to run the projector), the remote transmitter, and a weather radio (also plugged in - usually on standby).

Bottom line is I don't think I have anything that I have anything that is high-drain or even medium-drain!

***********************

The Heavy Duty shouldn't leak like an alkaline right?  The only downside is I can look forward to changing batteries every 6 to 12 months instead of 12 to 24 months being they won't last as long right?*


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## Jbirk (Nov 6, 2014)

*Re: Battery Question (Alkaline Leaks)*

I am thinking of buying Energizer Max (I literally haven't used an Energizer in 7 or 8 years except a 9v installed in a smoke detector by someone else).

The scary part is they all say they contain something called PowerLock, which I sure hope isn't some PowerLeak technology similar to DuraLeak. Either way, I think I am going to for the first time in my life give them a try.

I also NEVER used a Duracell Ultra, but I see they now have Quantum, which last 10 years in storage identical to the DuraLock Copper Top (how are they different)? I might buy them as they are Duracell's Flagship, cost more, and are a different product. Same with Ray-O-Vac and their "Advanced High-Energy," which are their answer to Duracell Quantum...


That said, I am NEVER buying a pack bigger than four (4) again until I can find something I can trust again except these <exploitative> companies above sell them in three (3) and six(6) packs... WTF good is a damned three (3) pack??? I guess I might buy a six(6) pack of each.

Any ideas?


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## Norm (Nov 6, 2014)

*Re: Battery Question (Alkaline Leaks)*



Jbirk said:


> *What is a safe, primary battery?*


 Expensive but lithium primary is your best choice in primary cells.

Norm


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## StarHalo (Nov 7, 2014)

*Re: Battery Question (Alkaline Leaks)*



Norm said:


> Expensive but lithium primary is your best choice in primary cells.



This. Energizer Lithiums last a decade in storage and have no physical failure characteristics, just be prepared to pay a premium for the quality. And all alkalines will eventually leak, there is no perfect brand or format; I've had a 9V burst in a smoke detector.


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## mcnair55 (Nov 7, 2014)

*Re: Battery Question (Alkaline Leaks)*

I use common sense and do not buy in big lots as AA/AAA are always on offer,just bought an 8 pack of AA for clocks etc as i needed to rob 8 Eneloops for a couple of r/c car controllers.

I never get a leak problem and i think it is much exaggerated by many but not all.


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## Rosoku Chikara (Nov 7, 2014)

*Re: Battery Question (Alkaline Leaks)*

My experience with Alkaline cells has been very similar to yours. I do not recall Alkalines being nearly as leak prone when I was young. I suspect that Alkalines are somehow being constructed more poorly than they used to be.



Jbirk said:


> ...*Heavy Duty shouldn't leak like an alkaline right?*...<snip>



The "Heavy Duty" cells are Zinc Carbon. There may have been some improvements, but my recollection is that one of the biggest advantages of Alkaline cells over Heavy Duty cells, was that Alkalines were not nearly as leak prone as Heavy Duty. So, I fear you are still likely to see plenty of leaks with Heavy Duty.



Jbirk said:


> ...*What is a safe, primary battery?*...<snip>



I believe Lithium cells are the only "safe" primary cells, but they are usually quite expensive. Is there some good reason why you don't want to use Eneloops?


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## MidnightDistortions (Nov 7, 2014)

*Re: Battery Question (Alkaline Leaks)*

I have noticed the main reason alkaline batteries leak is because of..

Overdischarge/cell reversal
Age (past the best used by date)
Heat
Stored improperly at the warehouse
Vampire drain (which would cause overdischarge/cell reversal)

Thankfully NiMH technology has greatly improved and have been switching off of Alkalines to Eneloops and they work better than Alkalines other than the lower voltage in certain devices and the abrupt death that the device sometimes does not allow for the low battery indicator to flash giving you enough time to swap the batteries. With alkalines it was mostly the off brands that leak. It was rare that Duracell or Energizer leaked but i but they have leaked with both old and newer ones but many of them were due to age and the depth of discharge which is often below 1 volt.


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## MidnightDistortions (Nov 7, 2014)

Lynx_Arc said:


> There are some things that are voltage sensitive to the higher output of lithiums, and it adds up the more cells you have in series but most things are ok with the.
> 
> You are lucky at being able to do away with alkalines for eneloops as I have some devices that last 6 months on eneloops and 2 years on alkalines and every time I have to change the batteries I have to reset the time settings on them so I have gone back to alkalines on these things. I am still going to keep around a limited amount of alkalines but only a fraction of what I used to have before I got LSD nimh cells. I have tried to move to devices that eneloops are useful in replacing things that don't like the lower voltage. I also have alkalines for cheap lights that I can throw away like in my car my more expensive stuff gets lithium batteries and my most drained devices get eneloops. I purposed bout a new sony alarm clock that used a 2032 for backup replacing a clock that used a 9v alkaline. It takes awhile and costs a little to replace finicky devices so that you can drop alkaline usage to near nothing.



Yeah there are some devices that won't ever accept anything other than Alkalines. I only have one older clock/weather station that takes 3 AA batteries. I haven't tried Eneloops on it yet and the device seems to work fine with 3 older Alkalines which i keep other Alkalines in a box. In fact i noticed that this thing handles 1.9 volts as i have tested the batteries and one is at 0.3volts, the other two are under 1 volt and the thing is still on so Eneloops should work fine in that particular device. As i said in my previous post that i still use Alkalines for smoke/carbon detectors which will give the device more time to let me know that the battery is low. The last time i have bought Alkalines was in 2004, i was given a bunch of batteries from a friend that moved out of state and since then i've been using NiMHs in high drain devices so it wasn't hard for me to switch over. 2032 button cells last better than Alkalines, never had a problem with those, only that they don't have a manufacture date or best used by info. I often pull those out of older PCs people throw out and some still have a charge on them.


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## reppans (Nov 8, 2014)

*Re: Battery Question (Alkaline Leaks)*



MidnightDistortions said:


> I have noticed the main reason alkaline batteries leak is because of..
> 
> Overdischarge/cell reversal
> Age (past the best used by date)
> ...




This is my experience as well - while I've had plenty of alkaline leaks in consumer devices, I really only have myself to blame for total neglect. Had I spent half the time/diligence monitoring the cells while in use, as I do with Eneloops, 3V Lithium primaries, and especially Li-ions, I think 90+% of those leaks would have been preventable. A good example would TV remotes which use 2 cells in series - I probably change them once every 2-3 yrs and never had a leak in one. They're in constant use, and it's obvious when the cells are dying, so you never get to the sub-1 volt / reverse charge state. I still use rechargables in frequently used, or high drain devices, and alks in all my low drain, long-term devices. I don't hate alkalines.

EDIT: just realized I've had 2 AA Alks in a mini Maglite in my glove compartment since my car was new (Mar '06) and that I never used the light. Just opened it up, no leaks, batts both test 1.55V, and expiration is Mar '16 - light still works fine .... I put it back as is.


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## Lynx_Arc (Nov 8, 2014)

*Re: Battery Question (Alkaline Leaks)*



MidnightDistortions said:


> I have noticed the main reason alkaline batteries leak is because of..
> 
> Overdischarge/cell reversal
> Age (past the best used by date)
> ...


With the exception of improper storage in transit to the store I cannot explain how brand new duracell AAs stored indoors and never put in a device never used leaked in a plastic box. They were several years from the expiration date and voltage measured in excess of 1.5v. I have some cheap heavy duty cells in the same box with no leaks at all and some cheap fujitsu (Biglots) batteries that haven't leaked either. I think battery companies are skimping on design to save a penny a cell and then hoping you don't call them on the carpet when their foil paper covered batteries leak and when you once had metal covered cells that were 15 years old that didn't. I've almost come to the conclusion that battery makers want them to leak so they become unusable and you have to buy more of them.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Nov 8, 2014)

*Re: Battery Question (Alkaline Leaks)*



Lynx_Arc said:


> With the exception of improper storage in transit to the store I cannot explain how brand new duracell AAs stored indoors and never put in a device never used leaked in a plastic box.



I've had that with Duracell, Energizer, as well as a couple of no-name brands. It's not common to have them leak when they're unused and before the expiry date, but it does happen. I usually store them in a humid basement, so perhaps that makes them more likely to leak. Storing them in a cool and dry area (which the basement is during the winter) is probably best for them.

Overall, though, I don't trust alkalines. They can (and will) leak, even though they still have plenty of charge in them. So they can be ruining your electronics, even though they're still powering it.


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## MidnightDistortions (Nov 8, 2014)

*Re: Battery Question (Alkaline Leaks)*



reppans said:


> This is my experience as well - while I've had plenty of alkaline leaks in consumer devices, I really only have myself to blame for total neglect. Had I spent half the time/diligence monitoring the cells while in use, as I do with Eneloops, 3V Lithium primaries, and especially Li-ions, I think 90+% of those leaks would have been preventable. A good example would TV remotes which use 2 cells in series - I probably change them once every 2-3 yrs and never had a leak in one. They're in constant use, and it's obvious when the cells are dying, so you never get to the sub-1 volt / reverse charge state. I still use rechargables in frequently used, or high drain devices, and alks in all my low drain, long-term devices. I don't hate alkalines.
> 
> EDIT: just realized I've had 2 AA Alks in a mini Maglite in my glove compartment since my car was new (Mar '06) and that I never used the light. Just opened it up, no leaks, batts both test 1.55V, and expiration is Mar '16 - light still works fine .... I put it back as is.



Yeah i don't hate alkalines either but with the cheap new LED flashlights i got i always keep the alkalines out of the flashlight and in it's original packaging (if possible). Otherwise i just find something where i could properly separate them so they are not hitting each other or anything metallic during transport. Been trying to find a local store that carries one of those plastic AA/AAA containers but haven't had any luck yet. I have a PS2 DVD remote that had 2AAA batteries leak, think they were still the Sony batteries that came with the controller, since that time i decided to take any alkalines left in any controllers and just use the crap/old NiMH batteries in it's place. Since then i only needed to do monthly recharges, i don't mind having to recharge those often, it's only the clocks that i'd rather using a good quality NiMH such as an Eneloop to power those. 




Lynx_Arc said:


> With the exception of improper storage in transit to the store I cannot explain how brand new duracell AAs stored indoors and never put in a device never used leaked in a plastic box. They were several years from the expiration date and voltage measured in excess of 1.5v. I have some cheap heavy duty cells in the same box with no leaks at all and some cheap fujitsu (Biglots) batteries that haven't leaked either. I think battery companies are skimping on design to save a penny a cell and then hoping you don't call them on the carpet when their foil paper covered batteries leak and when you once had metal covered cells that were 15 years old that didn't. I've almost come to the conclusion that battery makers want them to leak so they become unusable and you have to buy more of them.



Yeah, i have found that those 20 packs of alkalines (or more) people buy are a bit crazy but maybe not so if a few batteries leak or somehow had lost their charge (which is rare new batteries have that problem). Any alkaline battery is susceptible to leakage no matter what brand, but doesn't mean they will. I have found there's no name batteries that won't leak either and are completely dead. I'm just glad that rechargeables have evolved and it's pretty easy to find some with good chargers (which are a bit tougher to find but not impossible thanks to the internet).


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## radellaf (Nov 12, 2014)

*Re: Battery Question (Alkaline Leaks)*

I've mostly had alkalines leak in the package (fully charged), or in a long-forgotten device at well-over half capacity. Vampire drain is the only way I know to instigate leakage. I had it happen in a 2xAAA LCD alarm clock, and in a special blinking Kikkerland Battery Eater.

I posted results of my 2014 alkaline test in another thread, and can add that all the bought-in-2010 alkalines (200+ of various brands) have not leaked in the package. The 36 pack of Ray-O-Vacs from WalMart was a replacement, however, for one bought 6-12 months earlier where maybe 10 of the AA cells had leaked in the package soon after purchase.


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## Lynx_Arc (Nov 12, 2014)

*Re: Battery Question (Alkaline Leaks)*



MidnightDistortions said:


> Yeah, i have found that those 20 packs of alkalines (or more) people buy are a bit crazy but maybe not so if a few batteries leak or somehow had lost their charge (which is rare new batteries have that problem). Any alkaline battery is susceptible to leakage no matter what brand, but doesn't mean they will. I have found there's no name batteries that won't leak either and are completely dead. I'm just glad that rechargeables have evolved and it's pretty easy to find some with good chargers (which are a bit tougher to find but not impossible thanks to the internet).



It used to be back in the 70s through the early 90s perhaps that alkalines mainly leaked when they were mostly discharged (at least one of the cells in the group or they were way out of date you rarely found them leaking in the package or essentially unused or even very lightly used. Now I find often there is no sense to them leaking. I do rarely find them 2-3 years old leaking but when they are within 2-3 years of expiring look out. If someone could invent a leak proof alkaline I think they could patent it and get very rich but may have to go into business themselves because I'm thinking battery companies aren't worried about leaking since more often than not they profit off of it. People buy a brand and it leaks and they throw them away and buy another brand that leaks and throw it away and are back to the first leaking brand buying yet more batteries and in the end all the companies make money and charge you for perhaps 20% of the batteries that are defective which means you are paying too much. When you complain about leaking they may give you a coupon for free batteries (that will also leak). 
I am very glad for LSD nimh batteries in that my consumption of alkaline AA/AAA batteries is down about 90% from what it used to be. I used to stock at least 20 of each type now I sometimes run out of them and just buy a 4 or 8 pack of batteries when I need them and over time I get rid of things that require alkalines buying products that are nimh friendly instead. 
One thing that annoys me is that all the battery companies sell nimh but almost none of their chargers will charge them 1 at a time they only sell chargers that do 2 in series. All of the chargers with independent channels you have to order online now. I'm lucky to have an old duracell mobile charger around that I paid $15 for long ago. I keep looking at the fancy energizer and duracell chargers at stores that have nice readouts and such..... charges them in pairs still..... yuck. 
I bet continually charging in pairs wears out the nimh batteries a lot faster over time.


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## radellaf (Nov 13, 2014)

*Re: Battery Question (Alkaline Leaks)*

Couldn't agree with you more, Lynx_Arc. Just glad that it's easy to order stuff online. 

The only non-pair charger I've seen retail lately is the Duracell 8000, which does the one thing worse for battery life than overcharging one of a pair - trying to 15-minute charge a cell. I didn't mind pair chargers as much when everything used 2 or 4 cells, but now in addition to the other problems of that method, there are a lot of 1 and 3 cell devices.

Still, for those of us that know better, LSD NiMH is around. For those that don't, well, a lot of those people don't want to think about batteries enough for anything other than alkalines to work. Li primaries cost too much initially, and "accidentally" throwing NiMH in the trash gets expensive. 
So, we get leaky alkalines in the emergency flashlights, and landfills full of devices with proprietary and/or non-replaceable battery packs. Yay. For digital cameras, maybe an OK tradeoff, though if we're going to have a pack, I sure miss the real battery fuel-gauge of the early Sony Info-Lithiums.

Best advice I can give friends is just to keep the alkalines in a bag next to the devices (especially emergency flashlights) if they're not actively in use. Our mission as battery geeks, I guess, is to be sure to put a word in the ear of anyone we find who _can_ handle keeping track of batteries and _hasn't_ heard of NiMH improvements.


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## N8N (Nov 13, 2014)

I agree with everything in the last few posts. It does seem that the quality of alkaline has taken a nosedive in the past 5 years or so. Thank goodness for Duracell Ion Cores... finally a decent LSD NiMH available at a decent price through regular retail channels. If only Maha or other quality chargers were as easy to obtain...


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## Poppy (Nov 13, 2014)

MidnightDistortions said:


> You can definitely store flashlights with Eneloops in your car without fearing leakage or having to replace them. Just charge them and they are back in action. I plan on having an emergency charging kit, solar and crank in case i can't charge any batteries in a power outage (which would be rare if i had charged Eneloops laying around). The hard part will be to ensure the batteries do not overcharge and i can charge them individually. I don't have many applications for Li-ions, but Eneloops have proven to be a good replacement for AA and AAA alkalines .



I have a Safety Cross crank light radio.
I checked the documentation for my crank flashlight. It can be used to output 5 volts via USB, so it can charge other devices. It has three button cell NiMH 1.2 volt batteries in series to produce 3.6 volts with a storage capacity of a mere 40mah. To fully charge those batteries, the crank must be turned 3 times per second for 15 minutes. 3 AAA eneloops (800mah) would then take five hours of cranking!!!

They state that one minute of cranking will give 20 minutes of light, but that is at a mere 5 lumens.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Nov 13, 2014)

Poppy said:


> I have a Safety Cross crank light radio.
> I checked the documentation for my crank flashlight. It can be used to output 5 volts via USB, so it can charge other devices.



I have a similar radio, that can produce power via the hand crank (and also via built-in solar panels). I have tried recharging a cell phone with it, but discovered you really have to crank fast for it to produce enough power to charge the phone. It gets tiring really fast. It might be worth it for a 30-second emergency call with a dead phone, but you'd never want to charge it for anything longer.

The solar charging of the radio is slower (and not powerful enough to charge an auxiliary phone), but way more practical than the hand crank.


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## tripplec (Nov 13, 2014)

Ok I read most of these (last page anyway). To me it would depend on the application. Alkaline or NiMH LSD cells since knowone in the later posts brings up the application in the cold. Important given most of us are heading into winter (northern hemisphere anyway). If its left in the automobile its an big factor. Long run times outside >30 min. Lithium's don't cut it as detailed in another post they need to be kept warm. 
Now whether Eneloop cells (Japanese cells ) are good in the cold I have yet to come across that comparison)

I have seen plenty of alkaline cells leak most one dead or old enough to presume to have died before leaking. Its very difficult to clean the mess since the chemicals eat or corrode the cheap tin contacts as spring -ve ends. There should be far better ownership by the big OEM's on leaked cells and the damage cause to unique electronics.


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## radellaf (Nov 13, 2014)

I always figured an 8-pack of Li AAs would probably outlast the mechanism of a hand crank in terms of AM/FM radio runtime (25-50mA off 2xAA). 

Even more so if the hand crank has to charge rechargeable LiIon/NiCd/NiMH batteries that will probably be dead and useless after 5-10 years in storage. I had one radio that used a huge spring to run for a while off a crank. That seemed more practical than batteries. If I wanted emergency power, yeah, a solar panel would be the way to go. A big one, at least 20W, even if all you want is to charge two eneloops. I had a 7W Goal Zero panel that was pretty much useless. Only put out a useable amount of power in bright sun, outdoors, which means maybe 3 hours a day with all these trees around. I'd be lucky to put 500mAh a day into an 18650 with the thing (via cottonpickers USB charger) on a clear day. Zip if it was cloudy, stormy, snowy, etc.

I see this gets a good review: http://crank-radio-review.toptenreviews.com/eton-scorpion-review.html


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## Poppy (Nov 13, 2014)

tripplec said:


> Ok I read most of these (last page anyway). To me it would depend on the application. Alkaline or NiMH LSD cells since knowone in the later posts brings up the application in the cold. Important given most of us are heading into winter (northern hemisphere anyway). If its left in the automobile its an big factor. Long run times outside >30 min. Lithium's don't cut it as detailed in another post they need to be kept warm.
> Now whether Eneloop cells (Japanese cells ) are good in the cold I have yet to come across that comparison)
> .


I am pretty sure that lithium primaries function better in the cold than the other chemistries of batteries do.


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## N8N (Nov 13, 2014)

Poppy said:


> I am pretty sure that lithium primaries function better in the cold than the other chemistries of batteries do.



That was my understanding as well. Not so much a concern to me as my EDC flashlight lives in my pants pocket, but worth considering if you carry in a jacket or have a device that is typically not on your person that needs to function in the cold.


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## Poppy (Nov 13, 2014)

I have to laugh, in that I agree with many of the sentiments presented in this thread.

Each Chirstmas, I stock up on alkalines. My grandkids live with us and we still see a LOT of toys. BUT over the last couple of years, I have been buying Duracell rechargeables. I have been using them more and more in things around the house so that slowly/ eventually everything will have rechargeables. It does seem however that I have fewer Duraloops then I should have. I suspect that a number of them have met their fate in the trash.

If the kids play with the toy long enough to run the alkalines down, I'll replace them with rechargeables. 

Regarding emergency supplies, I have a number of 18650s about 90% charged in the refrigerator, some in flashlights, and headlights, and others lying around.

I try to keep one or two unopened packs of four AAs and four AAA duraloops, each pack. Plus others that are charged waiting to be swapped into which ever toy or remote that needs it.

I keep a four pack of AA lithiums in the trunk of my car, and a pair of duraloops in the 2AA light, with a cigar lighter charger for the duraloops in the glove compartment. Lithiums withstand the heat in a car better than other chemistries, and the trunk stays cooler longer than the cab (because of the windows). 

I don't use lithium primaries in my long term storage because they are too expensive to just have lying around. I'd rather have a working group of rechargeables, and extras, and rely on the fact that I will be able to recharge them. 

When Sandy hit we were without power for 3 1/2 days. Others were out much longer. I didn't have much of a rechargeable supply, and had a stash of alkaline AAs and some Ds, I was hesitant to give them away, because they were unobtainable. OTOH, if I had 18650s and a way to re-charge them, I would, and will readily loan them out.


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## tripplec (Nov 13, 2014)

N8N said:


> That was my understanding as well. Not so much a concern to me as my EDC flashlight lives in my pants pocket, but worth considering if you carry in a jacket or have a device that is typically not on your person that needs to function in the cold.



Nope they are extremely poor/unreliable in the winter. This is on the first page!!! http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...um-Ion-below-freezing-temperature-performance


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## N8N (Nov 13, 2014)

I thought we were discussing lithium primaries e.g. cr123a not li-ion rechargeable.


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## Lynx_Arc (Nov 13, 2014)

N8N said:


> I thought we were discussing lithium primaries e.g. cr123a not li-ion rechargeable.



We mostly are, I think people bring up li-ion instead of alkalines which IMO isn't really a substitute form of power. nimh would be an alternative and I think it is mentioned a lot because the cells cost close to the same as lithium primaries do. 
IMO alkalines are not terrible for emergencies but my main issue about them is all brands leak for me in and out of devices, brand new or slightly used doesn't seem to make a difference such that you can't trust to leave them in devices for emergencies and can't trust them to be good after years in storage like you can lithium primaries. I can leave a lithium primary in something essentially forever and not worry about it while I get a little paranoid if I have an alkaline battery in something more than a month.


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## Poppy (Nov 13, 2014)

Hmmm, 
THis is interesting...


> [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The performance of all battery chemistries drops drastically at low temperatures. At –20°C (–4°F) most nickel-, lead- and lithium-based batteries stop functioning. Although NiCd can go down to –40°C (-40°F), the permissible discharge is only 0.2C (5-hour rate). Specially built Li- ion brings the operating temperature down to –40°C, but only on discharge and at a reduced discharge. more... [/FONT]



I have read on here, time and again, that CR123/lithium batteries perform better in the cold than alkalines. I don't know if it is true. Could it be that it was said once with authority, with conviction, and it has been repeated like an Urban Legend?


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## MidnightDistortions (Nov 13, 2014)

Poppy said:


> I have a Safety Cross crank light radio.
> I checked the documentation for my crank flashlight. It can be used to output 5 volts via USB, so it can charge other devices. It has three button cell NiMH 1.2 volt batteries in series to produce 3.6 volts with a storage capacity of a mere 40mah. To fully charge those batteries, the crank must be turned 3 times per second for 15 minutes. 3 AAA eneloops (800mah) would then take five hours of cranking!!!
> 
> They state that one minute of cranking will give 20 minutes of light, but that is at a mere 5 lumens.





WalkIntoTheLight said:


> I have a similar radio, that can produce power via the hand crank (and also via built-in solar panels). I have tried recharging a cell phone with it, but discovered you really have to crank fast for it to produce enough power to charge the phone. It gets tiring really fast. It might be worth it for a 30-second emergency call with a dead phone, but you'd never want to charge it for anything longer.
> 
> The solar charging of the radio is slower (and not powerful enough to charge an auxiliary phone), but way more practical than the hand crank.



Well the idea of a hand crank like i said before, if you got the batteries relatively charged it doesn't take much. All you're really doing is putting back what you used. If you wait until they are dead it's not going to do much but even on dead or near dead batteries, if you use the hand charger 15 minutes here and there it adds up, so as long as you're not going to use the batteries for awhile. Plus it seems that hand crank charger doesn't do very good. It takes me about 10 minutes to get up to either 100 or 300mAh i can't remember what the capacity was of my NOAA weather radio was but it doesn't take long to fully charge that unit with the hand crank.



radellaf said:


> I always figured an 8-pack of Li AAs would probably outlast the mechanism of a hand crank in terms of AM/FM radio runtime (25-50mA off 2xAA).
> 
> Even more so if the hand crank has to charge rechargeable LiIon/NiCd/NiMH batteries that will probably be dead and useless after 5-10 years in storage. I had one radio that used a huge spring to run for a while off a crank. That seemed more practical than batteries. If I wanted emergency power, yeah, a solar panel would be the way to go. A big one, at least 20W, even if all you want is to charge two eneloops. I had a 7W Goal Zero panel that was pretty much useless. Only put out a useable amount of power in bright sun, outdoors, which means maybe 3 hours a day with all these trees around. I'd be lucky to put 500mAh a day into an 18650 with the thing (via cottonpickers USB charger) on a clear day. Zip if it was cloudy, stormy, snowy, etc.
> 
> I see this gets a good review: http://crank-radio-review.toptenreviews.com/eton-scorpion-review.html



Yeah solar energy is the ideal, way to recharge your batteries, it's kinda like lighters versus a flint kit. You shouldn't need a flint kit but for whatever reason all you can carry is a pack of Eneloops and a crank charger, they are generally easier to carry around than a solar panel, a decent sized one isn't that practical to carry if you got to be on the move on foot. It takes me about 5-10 minutes to fully charge my NOAA weather radio batteries (that are 100-300mAh) with a hand crank, a better one might charge 2AA Eneloops.

It's kinda like the stationary bike kind of deal. It doesn't work if your on foot going somewhere, but if you had a bike with you and were able to move to place to place with everything in your pack on a bike, that would be ideal but you would need to make sure you got a circuit that will only allow the right amount of current so your not going to kill your batteries in the process. That would also work for recharging a 12 volt battery.


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## ChibiM (Nov 14, 2014)

Its also quite interesting to know that the batteries that were first sold out in Japan after the big earthquake 3 years ago were D-size batteries.

CR123 and CR5 were/are readily available in stores.. but the problem is that they are very pricey over here. 
so depending on what you are stocking, if there are still stores open, there might be a big chance these CR123 batteries are still there.


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## N8N (Nov 14, 2014)

Not a completely authoritative source but I'm posting from a cell phone in a waiting room 

http://toolguyd.com/flashlight-tool-batteries-cold-weather/

If someone wants to run down data sheets or other (ahem) primary sources, I'd appreciate confirmation so I know I'm not repeating urban legend.


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## Poppy (Nov 14, 2014)

N8N said:


> Not a completely authoritative source but I'm posting from a cell phone in a waiting room
> 
> http://toolguyd.com/flashlight-tool-batteries-cold-weather/
> 
> If someone wants to run down data sheets or other (ahem) primary sources, I'd appreciate confirmation so I know I'm not repeating urban legend.



N8N,
Great find! And Thank You!
I checked the linked PDFs in that thread and the authors comments match the referenced PDFs. I would say that Energizer, Sanyo, and Panasonic data sheets are Primary sources of info and should be relied upon.

In a discussion that followed that article, one poster stated that Li-Ion batteries have come a long way, and...


> Right now I’m looking at a datasheet for Samsung’s INR18650-20R battery (3.6V, 2.0Ah), which Milwaukee uses in their latest M18 battery packs, and it’s rated for use down to -20°C (-4°F).
> For this battery, the capacity drops to 60% at -4°F, and 80% at freezing.



From the above post, it seems that not only Lithium Primary batteries, but also Rechargeable Li-Ion batteries handle the cold better than NiMH batteries do (which are good to freezing, not below).


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## RCTPAVUK (Nov 15, 2014)

let's do the math...

the max capacity i've seen on NiMh is 2700 mah. the typical voltage is 1.2v. -> 1.2*2.7=3.24 WH
The max capacity i've seen on 18650 is 3600mah. typical voltage - 3.6/ -> 3.6*3.6=12.96 WH
12.96\3.24 = 4. (4 max capacity NiMh = 1 max capacity LiIon).
NiMh batteries usually keep their charge longer. (eneloop says it looses only 10% per year). These don't need to be baby-sited; you charge and forget. LiIons are more finicky. Must keep them above 2.9 volts, store @ approx. 3.6v, and no overcharging... But, one cell takes on 4 AA...
With today chargers, you can top-up LiIon in 1-2 hours off a car 12v line in the case of emergency. + you can find 15W+ solar panels pretty easily (for real doom's day preppers)...
Make your own decisions, but i bet on LiIon.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Nov 15, 2014)

Poppy said:


> N8N,
> From the above post, it seems that not only Lithium Primary batteries, but also Rechargeable Li-Ion batteries handle the cold better than NiMH batteries do (which are good to freezing, not below).



IIRC, the 2nd gen Eneloops (and later gens) specs the batteries down to -20C. I use some in an outdoor weather station that gets below -30C in winter, and it has never failed yet. All very low current, though.

I've also used them in flashlights below -20C, and they work fine at fairly high demands (about 2.5 amps). I don't know if they would last as long at such cold temperatures (compared to indoors), but they last for a decent length of time. At high current they tend to heat up, so that might help them.


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## tripplec (Nov 15, 2014)

Its tough to know which Li-Ion protected cells in 18650 or 14500 (more commonly used cells) will handle the cold. Sure they may have come a long way but I know some of the tools using them say -4C on their Lithium batteries implying to me not to expose them to colder temps. I keep mine inside when not using them but I lost a battery rarely used and charged only 3 times max in a Ryobi impact/drill set. Bummer but it wasn't the cold that took that one out of commission. I guess we just have to be away it could be an issue if you depend on a device to work with the installed battery it might not come on.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Nov 15, 2014)

tripplec said:


> Its tough to know which Li-Ion protected cells in 18650 or 14500 (more commonly used cells) will handle the cold. Sure they may have come a long way but I know some of the tools using them say -4C on their Lithium batteries implying to me not to expose them to colder temps.



Is it possible that the -4C warning is meant for using the entire tool, and not just the battery? Cold may make plastic parts brittle and lubricants thick. Perhaps they use that warning to stop people from using the tool when it might cause it to break because of the cold.


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## radellaf (Nov 15, 2014)

How many hours is a hand crank rated for? At your guess of 20mAh per minute, assuming that's into a pair of NiMH cells for a radio, an 8 pack of AA primaries (alkaline or lithium, at 25-50mA to power a radio shack 12-586 they're about the same) will be worth about 10 hours of cranking. 
I personally would rather pay $15-$20 every 10-15 years than have to crank my radio, assuming the crank didn't break, for 10 hours over the course of an emergency.

About cold LiIon:
"The performance of all battery chemistries drops drastically at low temperatures. At –20°C (–4°F) most nickel-, lead- and lithium-based batteries stop functioning. Although NiCd can go down to –40°C (-40°F), the permissible discharge is only 0.2C (5-hour rate). Specially built Li- ion brings the operating temperature down to –40°C, but only on discharge and at a reduced discharge." - B.U.

For a LG ICR18650 C2 2800mAh, they spec 70% capacity at -10°C. I think it's a pretty typical cell.
AFAIK, the main problem with cold LiIon is figuring out what the allowable _charge_ current is if you try to charge them at the low end of the allowable range (0°C) rather than the usual 20°C spec. Max safe discharge current also goes down, which would be an issue only if you're pushing 1C. 0.5C is the limit for that cell for -20°C to 5°C. Then it jumps to 2C over 5°C? Somewhere in there a 1C rate is OK.


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## MidnightDistortions (Nov 16, 2014)

Ok well i'll agree that hand crank chargers are not the ideal way of recharging batteries. In this case you'll need enough batteries to last several days and a solar panel capable of recharging mass amounts of batteries within a few hours. If you got a flashlight that lasts 8 hours on a set of Eneloops (which is typically 2-4AA or the lithium equivalents) you'll need 12-24 batteries for that flashlight if you were unable to get sunlight for 36 hours. You probably won't use up all the hours on the flashlight but i'd rather have fewer batteries but be able to have a flashlight running for an hour versus not having any power at all because hand crank chargers are not idealistic but when you don't have any solar energy and your lights do not have any power you're either stuck using candles or a lighter or if you did have a hand crank charger handy, you'll at least get some light. If you do not have any way of recharging your batteries and all your battery supply runs dead, the only practical thing at this point is having some way of generating electricity. The only other option is to avoid using your flashlight whenever possible to conserve energy. Maybe having a very low lumen flashlight that doesn't eat up mA. I currently don't have one.

The chances of requiring a hand crank would be none at best, but i got a fairly decent weather radio/flashlight where the built in rechargeables will last 30 minutes using the light on a full charge (which must not take much mA to power it). And it takes roughly 10-15 minutes to recharge the pack. I plan on having a pack of Eneloops wired in so the emergency pack could last longer but at the same time i could be using the hand crank every so often to keep the batteries charged and the device off when not needed, again it's only as a last ditch measure where there's no other power source available. For me, thats more practical than having to buy two 16 packs of Eneloops just to have a light that maybe i might not use up but when it comes time to recharge the batteries i don't want to start bringing the candles out, especially if you're in an area where it's easy to knock it over and start a fire or if you have a pet cat that likes to knock stuff over for amusement. Granted having solar energy is ideal and it's recommended to have a solar pack capable of recharging 4 or more batteries but that won't do much good if there is no light in the sky to operate it unless you plan on having a 12 volt battery to hold that energy you got from when there was light but if your cross country hiking, it's a bit difficult to carry a decent sized solar panel with a 12 volt battery. For me, having a crank charger could mean i could have 30 extra minutes of light or more and i don't have to carry an extra surplus of batteries.

I'm not denying that hand crank charging might be the worst method in recharging batteries but that's where i wouldn't try using a hand crank to charge dead batteries to power a ultra bright flashlight but then perhaps solar powered flashlights (with rechargeable batteries) is not such a bad idea after all. Hand cranks are not ideal but neither is the USA's current electricity infrastructure.


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## tripplec (Nov 16, 2014)

I recently got a couple of single cell flashlight which use AA or Li-Ion I got some 14500's on order but I am into the 9th week now and have not arrived from Fasttech. I was looking one eBay and see a lot with 2300mAh on them. These cells are normally in the 800-900mAH range. A good protected 14500 may take till next year to settle on for these lights. This is what I am waiting to arrive if I see them at all "TrustFire 14500 3.7V 900mAh Protected
Rechargeable Li-ion "


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## Lynx_Arc (Nov 16, 2014)

MidnightDistortions said:


> The only other option is to avoid using your flashlight whenever possible to conserve energy. Maybe having a very low lumen flashlight that doesn't eat up mA. I currently don't have one.


Two words..... car charger.
With solar setups many people opt to use a 12v SLA as a buffer to charge batteries from and then use 12v chargers on it that can also be used in a car with proper adapters. Cranks are IMO... only really useful in some extreme circumstances. With cheap and efficient low output LED lights for the price of a decent crank charger that will hold up under stress well you can buy a lot of throwaway LED lights and batteries. 
I recommend having a few cheap throwaway lights such as the energizer 1D lights (in a 2 pack at home depot I think) for $5/pair and the rayovac 2AA LED light in 4 colors at walmart for $1.50. Both come with cheap batteries that should run you for about 3 days to even a week before you have to replace them and at those costs you could buy a bunch of cheap batteries for them vs the cost of a crank and run for months without effort.


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## PhillyRube (Nov 16, 2014)

Berneck1 said:


> Every time I go through my emergency supplies I'm almost always guaranteed to find some leaking alkalines. This time I found many more than usual. I think I threw away 200 batteries today. I'm starting to realize that perhaps I'm being penny-wise and pound-foolish.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Candlepowerforums



Where is your bunker?


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## reppans (Nov 16, 2014)

MidnightDistortions said:


> .... In this case you'll need enough batteries to last several days and a solar panel capable of recharging mass amounts of batteries within a few hours. If you got a flashlight that lasts 8 hours on a set of Eneloops (which is typically 2-4AA or the lithium equivalents) you'll need 12-24 batteries for that flashlight if you were unable to get sunlight for 36 hours. ....Maybe having a very low lumen flashlight that doesn't eat up mA. I currently don't have one.



I assume your "36 hours" means something more like 5hrs a night for week? And are there many (any?) modern multimode LEDs lights that have max runtimes of only </= 8hrs on their lowest modes on 2-4AAs? 

I'll admit to being the low lumen junkie around here, but a single AA comfortably lasts me a week while camping (~6 hrs continuous use/night). And in a real emergency, without much difficulty, I could survive on just "bright" moonlight modes for 3 weeks (per AA), esp. indoors with all the light colored walls/carpeting.

I have a Powerfilm thin-film 4AA solar charger that will disappear in a jacket pocket that could easily sustain my low-lumen lighting and AM/FM/WX radio's needs indefinitely even if it were permanently cloudy (volcanic ash/asteroid dust clouds could be another matter though ). Thin-film panels are only half as efficient monocrystalline (eg, GZ 7watt Guide 10+) in perfect sunlight but they are more than twice as efficient in imperfect conditions. Keeping a smartphone alive for communications and entertainment is another matter though - that would require direct sunlight, or much bigger thin-film panels for me.

That said, I also have a fully-loaded campervan with generator, deep cycle battery, inverter, propane fridge, heater, etc, etc. It has sustained us quite comfortably through Sandy and a few other week-long power outages around here.


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## N8N (Nov 16, 2014)

Lynx_Arc said:


> Two words..... car charger.



The two chargers I use the most - Maha C9000 and Nitecore i4 V2 - either come with or have available as an accessory a cigarette lighter plug.

Now if only German cars would leave the lighter on with the engine off... at least I can use my Jeep if I have to


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## N8N (Nov 16, 2014)

Poppy said:


> From the above post, it seems that not only Lithium Primary batteries, but also Rechargeable Li-Ion batteries handle the cold better than NiMH batteries do (which are good to freezing, not below).



Highly unscientific data point but I have a little remote temperature sender unit that lives outside my bedroom window, that runs on 2xAAA. That was one of the first things I switched over to Eneloops as I otherwise was buying new cells for it and the associated bedside clock/receiver twice a year. I'm charging those cells now, but they are still working, and they've definitely been exposed to below freezing temperatures over all of last winter, not to mention last night (while apparently discharged) - now these cells might have less of a lifespan than less abused Eneloops but they are still kickin'. Charged fine in my C9000 and powered up the sender as soon as I reinstalled them.

So, while they may not be recommended for below freezing temperatures, that does not mean that they are utterly and completely useless.

That said for a mission critical device I would probably use something with a lower minimum temperature rating.


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## Lynx_Arc (Nov 16, 2014)

N8N said:


> The two chargers I use the most - Maha C9000 and Nitecore i4 V2 - either come with or have available as an accessory a cigarette lighter plug.
> 
> Now if only German cars would leave the lighter on with the engine off... at least I can use my Jeep if I have to



If my car had a lighter like that I would put one in that was on all the time.


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## MidnightDistortions (Nov 16, 2014)

Lynx_Arc said:


> Two words..... car charger.
> With solar setups many people opt to use a 12v SLA as a buffer to charge batteries from and then use 12v chargers on it that can also be used in a car with proper adapters. Cranks are IMO... only really useful in some extreme circumstances. With cheap and efficient low output LED lights for the price of a decent crank charger that will hold up under stress well you can buy a lot of throwaway LED lights and batteries.
> I recommend having a few cheap throwaway lights such as the energizer 1D lights (in a 2 pack at home depot I think) for $5/pair and the rayovac 2AA LED light in 4 colors at walmart for $1.50. Both come with cheap batteries that should run you for about 3 days to even a week before you have to replace them and at those costs you could buy a bunch of cheap batteries for them vs the cost of a crank and run for months without effort.



Ah yeah that's a good idea, considering all my high powered lights are MAGS and i have yet to upgrade my lantern/flashlight to LED, but i've been using the crappy 2500 Energizers in them but that lasts about 4 hours or less due to one of the Energizer batteries being under 1000mAh. 



reppans said:


> I assume your "36 hours" means something more like 5hrs a night for week? And are there many (any?) modern multimode LEDs lights that have max runtimes of only </= 8hrs on their lowest modes on 2-4AAs?
> 
> I'll admit to being the low lumen junkie around here, but a single AA comfortably lasts me a week while camping (~6 hrs continuous use/night). And in a real emergency, without much difficulty, I could survive on just "bright" moonlight modes for 3 weeks (per AA), esp. indoors with all the light colored walls/carpeting.
> 
> ...



It really depends on the situation. If you need a light running for 36 hours for whatever reason (would probably be doing some rescue efforts in the community or whatever) but the Powerfilm charger you got sounds pretty nice, i just got a simple one from Radioshack.. it might get 2 or 3 batteries with direct sunlight. The thing only produces 7 volts in indirect sunlight, i haven't checked it in direct sunlight. Never had the chance to, one day when i go camping though i plan on doing some tests with it.

With that being said though i do understand that hand cranks are not the most ideal way of recharging batteries, but i like to be prepared for it in case. 90-99% of the time you most likely won't ever need or will ever use a hand crank in emergencies but there's always that 1%. If only we got off of fossil fuels and start having solar panels, wind turbines, and other renewable resources. Design a better mass storage battery where we need them there will be a time where you won't need to worry about electricity going out.


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## Poppy (Nov 17, 2014)

MidnightDistortions,
I respect the fact that you are taking the time to THINK OUT your responses, and in time, I can see that you will be able to be a major contributor to the site and other members. Here I am all smiles,  thinking to myself, how much you and I are alike. It is amazing how much I learned, hanging here, reading the posts of more seasoned members, like reappans, lynx_arc, StarHalo, etc. Sometimes I read my earlier posts and chuckle to myself. 

Undoubtedly, dynamo methods of recharging batteries will work when solar will fail, and if for that reason alone, it is enough to include one in a preparedness plan. I used to keep one in my car's glove box, until the NiCad batteries wouldn't hold a charge. It would work as long as I kept cranking it though. One I gave to my son's friend when he was leaving for a hike on the Appalachian trail, so that he could charge his cell phone should an emergency arise. If he were to leave today, I'd just throw a 18650 power bank in his pack.


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## N8N (Nov 17, 2014)

Lynx_Arc said:


> If my car had a lighter like that I would put one in that was on all the time.



Somewhere I have a lighter socket on a cord with clips on the other end, for a less permanent solution.

I hope I can find it if it comes to that though


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## Poppy (Nov 17, 2014)

> Originally Posted by *N8N*
> 
> 
> The two chargers I use the most - Maha C9000 and Nitecore i4 V2 - either come with or have available as an accessory a cigarette lighter plug.
> ...





Lynx_Arc said:


> If my car had a lighter like that I would put one in that was on all the time.



YES... my daughter's Toyota didn't have an always on cigar lighter or power port. It took longer to get the parts than it did to install an always hot power port. It was a lease so she didn't want something permanently installed, I used an alligator clipped wire for the ground, and jammed a wire into the fused side of a always hot circuit of the fuse box. One that wasn't essential for the running of the engine. Usually there are circuits in a fuse box that are hot, but not used for some options that aren't installed. There are easy ways to wire into the box, there are adapters such as a Mini Fuse Circuit Tap available from just about any auto parts store.


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## MidnightDistortions (Nov 17, 2014)

Poppy said:


> MidnightDistortions,
> I respect the fact that you are taking the time to THINK OUT your responses, and in time, I can see that you will be able to be a major contributor to the site and other members. Here I am all smiles,  thinking to myself, how much you and I are alike. It is amazing how much I learned, hanging here, reading the posts of more seasoned members, like reappans, lynx_arc, StarHalo, etc. Sometimes I read my earlier posts and chuckle to myself.
> 
> Undoubtedly, dynamo methods of recharging batteries will work when solar will fail, and if for that reason alone, it is enough to include one in a preparedness plan. I used to keep one in my car's glove box, until the NiCad batteries wouldn't hold a charge. It would work as long as I kept cranking it though. One I gave to my son's friend when he was leaving for a hike on the Appalachian trail, so that he could charge his cell phone should an emergency arise. If he were to leave today, I'd just throw a 18650 power bank in his pack.



lol, thanks. As technology continues to improve dynamo charging will become less likely needed and unless the world falls apart longer than a month you probably wouldn't ever need to resort to hand crank charging or is minimal at best. I certainly wouldn't use them on my Duraloops and i would probably use my crap batteries first or just dedicate a pack of Eneloops for it. I think some of the responses to my idea that hand cranks are needed are a bit overreacting as it's pointless to attempt to fully recharge all your dead batteries but they are useful into putting a charge and getting some light going when everything else has been exhausted. I certainly DO favor using solar over a hand crank and the first thing i would do is to hook those up and have a set of Eneloops charging. Plus with me slowly replacing all my Alkaline devices with Eneloops i should eventually have a surplus of rechargeable batteries that will get me through several weeks. Right now i got 16AA Eneloops that should last about a week providing those batteries have not been used, which in fact i barely use the Eneloops other than on occasion i'll use the 2D LED Mag and the classic 2AA Mag has a pack of Energizer staycharged (was the only battery that would fit in that Mag at the time). I also am trying to save money for one of those high lumen Lithium lights with power saving modes so i got an extra light and a device running rechargeable li-ons.

As for cellphones, i'd just keep it turned off and charged in case of an emergency. I got a 4AA USB charger too so if my cellphone does need recharging i got that, a pack of Eneloops are dedicated to that device. Need another pack of Duraloops (or XX Eneloops), currently i only got one pack that i'll most likely use for the 2D Maglite when the Eneloops go dead in those. I don't like keeping a huge stash of extra surplus of rechargeables (or batteries in general) as it gets harder to cycle through them all and i need to get an 8+ battery cycle smart charger as right now i only got the BC-1000 right now. I plan on getting the PowerEx charger as well, but anyway i just like being prepared for any situation.


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## WalkIntoTheLight (Nov 17, 2014)

MidnightDistortions said:


> I think some of the responses to my idea that hand cranks are needed are a bit overreacting as it's pointless to attempt to fully recharge all your dead batteries but they are useful into putting a charge and getting some light going when everything else has been exhausted.



It's just that it's sort of gimmicky, and not very practical. If you really think you'll ever need to use a hand crank, then just buy an extra pair of AA Eneloops or lithium AA's. They'll store far more energy in them than you will ever be willing to "crank" into one of your exhausted batteries.

I do have a hand-crank in a radio that recharges NiMH batteries. It's fun to use... for about 2 minutes, which gives me about a 0.5% charge. An extra set of AA's would be far more practical.


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## Lynx_Arc (Nov 17, 2014)

Poppy said:


> YES... my daughter's Toyota didn't have an always on cigar lighter or power port. It took longer to get the parts than it did to install an always hot power port. It was a lease so she didn't want something permanently installed, I used an alligator clipped wire for the ground, and jammed a wire into the fused side of a always hot circuit of the fuse box. One that wasn't essential for the running of the engine. Usually there are circuits in a fuse box that are hot, but not used for some options that aren't installed. There are easy ways to wire into the box, there are adapters such as a Mini Fuse Circuit Tap available from just about any auto parts store.


once I had an older car with the glass fuses and I literally soldered a wire on the end of a fuse to power something. The nice thing about doing that is it is easily removeable and can be moved from car to car by just swapping that fuse in instead of another one.


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## Poppy (Nov 17, 2014)

Lynx_Arc said:


> once I had an older car with the glass fuses and I literally soldered a wire on the end of a fuse to power something. The nice thing about doing that is it is easily removeable and can be moved from car to car by just swapping that fuse in instead of another one.



LOL... I hope that you never blew that fuse!


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## markr6 (Nov 18, 2014)

"Emergency" as in the one I never experienced in 33 years? That means I'll gamble and stock cheap alkalines. When I throw them out in 5-10 years, no big deal.


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## Poppy (Nov 18, 2014)

Berneck1 said:


> Thanks everybody. I think you solidified my thinking.
> 
> I think I'll probably split between Eneloops and lithium primaries. In the long run, the money I save not replacing alkalines more than justifies the cost. I have always thought about going "all Eneloop." However, the reason I still want primaries is because I have some elderly relatives and some always unprepared neighbors that need batteries from time to time. I'm certainly not going to give them my Eneloops... Hahaha
> 
> ...



If you are storing primaries primarily, so that you can give them away, you might add some D cell alkalines to your stockpile. Maybe a couple of lights that'll run on them.

I have only recently become very impressed with the capacity of D cells when they have a low drain on them. It seems to me that a D cell has the equivalent watt hour capacity of a 3100ma 18650. Meaning that a 3D light has a similar capacity to a 3*18650 light. 

A one cell 18650 will do 100 lumens for about 7-8 hours.

I did a run test on a $15 3D lantern running a Cree XB-D emitter.

As expected in an un-regulated alkaline based lantern, the lumens drop off somewhat rapidly initially, but the three Ds surprised me at how well they held up in the long run.

Initially the lantern pulled 700 ma high, and 390 ma low. ~210 lumens, and 130 lumens.
At the end of the first hour it was down to about 175 lumens
And at the end of the fifth hour it was just above 120 lumens.
For the seventh through seventeenth hours it was between 100 and 110 lumens.
Hours 18-28 it was between 80-95 lumens

------------------------------------
In summary, 3 - 18650s will give about 100 lm for about 24 hours.
3 D cells in an unregulated light, will give a little more than 100 lumens for the first 17 hours, and between 80-95 lumens for up to 28 hours. (At 55 hours they were still putting out about 40 lumens)


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## Lynx_Arc (Nov 18, 2014)

Poppy said:


> LOL... I hope that you never blew that fuse!



no problem soldering onto a new fuse. I think they now make connectors for blade fuses that makes soldering unneeded.


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## Lynx_Arc (Nov 18, 2014)

Poppy said:


> If you are storing primaries primarily, so that you can give them away, you might add some D cell alkalines to your stockpile. Maybe a couple of lights that'll run on them.
> 
> I have only recently become very impressed with the capacity of D cells when they have a low drain on them. It seems to me that a D cell has the equivalent watt hour capacity of a 3100ma 18650. Meaning that a 3D light has a similar capacity to a 3*18650 light.


I believe an alkaline D cell at very low current can supply in excess of 15Ah. You used to be able to buy 1D LED lights that used a boost circuit and a single 5mm LED and would run for something like 100 hours


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## Poppy (Nov 19, 2014)

Lynx_Arc said:


> I believe an alkaline D cell at very low current can supply in excess of 15Ah. You used to be able to buy 1D LED lights that used a boost circuit and a single 5mm LED and would run for something like 100 hours



Yes... currently, both Rayovac, and Eveready offer 1D LED lights @ 9 lumens that they state will give 50 hours of useable light on one Carbon-Zn battery. I believe that an alkaline would run about 3 times as long. Those lights are each less than $5.00, and they come with batteries! :thumbsup:


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## Uncle_Tom (Dec 24, 2014)

*Re: Battery Question (Alkaline Leaks)*

I have had leaking problems with any brand alkaline I ever bought. Some of each brand leak & some don't. Just recently, I had some, not all, AAA Duracell Copper Top in a 20 pack with a 2016 date, leak in the pack, never used.

In regard to "WTF good is a damned three (3) pack???" I have a number of items that use three at a time.


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## Lynx_Arc (Dec 24, 2014)

Poppy said:


> Yes... currently, both Rayovac, and Eveready offer 1D LED lights @ 9 lumens that they state will give 50 hours of useable light on one Carbon-Zn battery. I believe that an alkaline would run about 3 times as long. Those lights are each less than $5.00, and they come with batteries! :thumbsup:


One version of the Energizer 1D lights have a PR base LED bulb that can be put in other things and if you have a 2AA light you can use two nearly dead batteries to light it up for awhile in an emergency.


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## MidnightDistortions (Dec 24, 2014)

*Re: Battery Question (Alkaline Leaks)*



Uncle_Tom said:


> I have had leaking problems with any brand alkaline I ever bought. Some of each brand leak & some don't. Just recently, I had some, not all, AAA Duracell Copper Top in a 20 pack with a 2016 date, leak in the pack, never used.
> 
> In regard to "WTF good is a damned three (3) pack???" I have a number of items that use three at a time.




I have yet to see an alkaline leak in the pack. I have, however seen them leak in devices which is usually a pain to clean out, with all that powdery white stuff. There was one battery that looked like it burned the heck out of a negative connection on my PS2 DVD remote.


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## Lynx_Arc (Dec 25, 2014)

*Re: Battery Question (Alkaline Leaks)*



MidnightDistortions said:


> I have yet to see an alkaline leak in the pack. I have, however seen them leak in devices which is usually a pain to clean out, with all that powdery white stuff. There was one battery that looked like it burned the heck out of a negative connection on my PS2 DVD remote.



I've seen them leaking in packages in stores on many occasions and they were still within the date stamp on them. The last ones I saw leaking was in a 4 pack of coppertop duracell AAAs in a BigLots store about 2 months ago.


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## MidnightDistortions (Dec 27, 2014)

*Re: Battery Question (Alkaline Leaks)*



Lynx_Arc said:


> I've seen them leaking in packages in stores on many occasions and they were still within the date stamp on them. The last ones I saw leaking was in a 4 pack of coppertop duracell AAAs in a BigLots store about 2 months ago.



The warehouse must not store them properly or something. Either that the stores around here pull them off the shelf before i get a chance to see packaged leaky alkalines.


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## Lynx_Arc (Dec 27, 2014)

*Re: Battery Question (Alkaline Leaks)*



MidnightDistortions said:


> The warehouse must not store them properly or something. Either that the stores around here pull them off the shelf before i get a chance to see packaged leaky alkalines.



Who knows the reason it could be a lot of reasons but I suspect it is just cheaper design by the manufacturer to save that extra penny per battery or whatever that causes more of them to leak these days than 20 years ago.


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## NoNotAgain (Dec 27, 2014)

In the last five years or so, alkaline batteries have got much worse in regards to leaking. I suspect that due to fierce competition between the manufacturers that the process has been cheapened up. 

After having alkaline batteries trashing a few Nikon Speedlights and emergency use flashlights, I'm totally done with alkaline cells. 

It's a given that you're going to forget devises that have cells installed only to find at a later date that the contacts are corroded away due to leaky cells. 

Lithium primary cells to date have proven a much safer alternative to alkaline cells. 

Surefire is confident enough to install their lithium cells in many of their lights, not just packaging them with the light. 

Recently many states have changed their fire code regulations to require lithium cells only for smoke detectors.


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## Lynx_Arc (Dec 27, 2014)

NoNotAgain said:


> In the last five years or so, alkaline batteries have got much worse in regards to leaking. I suspect that due to fierce competition between the manufacturers that the process has been cheapened up.
> 
> After having alkaline batteries trashing a few Nikon Speedlights and emergency use flashlights, I'm totally done with alkaline cells.
> 
> ...



I have only heard of one instance on the forum over the last 10 years of someone having a lithium primary battery leaking on them and I think the damage was minimal and I think it wasn't a known brand of lithium battery either. As far as I know lithium primaries just don't leak at all.... ever. 
I just wish lithium primaries were cheaper instead of costing as much as LSD nimh.


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## Berneck1 (Dec 27, 2014)

Lynx_Arc said:


> I have only heard of one instance on the forum over the last 10 years of someone having a lithium primary battery leaking on them and I think the damage was minimal and I think it wasn't a known brand of lithium battery either. As far as I know lithium primaries just don't leak at all.... ever.
> I just wish lithium primaries were cheaper instead of costing as much as LSD nimh.



Yeah, the lithiums are somewhat cost prohibitive. I only have them as emergency backup. However, it has forced me to use Eneloops which is not a bad thing at all. In the long run, I have saved a ton of money, and have no issues with leaking.


Sent from my iPad using Candlepowerforums


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## Lynx_Arc (Dec 27, 2014)

Berneck1 said:


> Yeah, the lithiums are somewhat cost prohibitive. I only have them as emergency backup. However, it has forced me to use Eneloops which is not a bad thing at all. In the long run, I have saved a ton of money, and have no issues with leaking.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Candlepowerforums


Ironic that the cost of lithiums which is often used to replace alkalines pushes people into using eneloops instead as the price is the same. Maybe one day Energizers patent on lithium AA/AAA batteries will be history and other brands will be sold and the price will drop to half. I would probably use lithiums more in stuff if they were a dollar each or ever $1.25 each.


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## Poppy (Dec 27, 2014)

Lynx_Arc said:


> I believe an alkaline D cell at very low current can supply in excess of 15Ah. You used to be able to buy 1D LED lights that used a boost circuit and a single 5mm LED and would run for something like 100 hours



I just pulled the plug on a run time test with 3D carbon-zinc batteries and a single emitter and a resistor. It ran initially at 170 lumens and a little over 1,000 hours it was probably at 0.05 lumens.


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## H-Man (Dec 28, 2014)

Poppy said:


> I just pulled the plug on a run time test with 3D carbon-zinc batteries and a single emitter and a resistor. It ran initially at 170 lumens and a little over 1,000 hours it was probably at 0.05 lumens.



I have a light that has clocked at least 10,000 hours on a set of AA eneloops. Is it dim? Yes, but that only matters if you don't need light. It draws something around .10-.15 mA (I think it is about 3mA-6mA to make a lumen depending on the emitter so it is close to the brightness of your lantern.)

It is a 5mm LED stuck into a HF 2AA minimag look alike, on eneloops it has a fair bit flatter regulation vs alkalines.


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## Lynx_Arc (Dec 28, 2014)

H-Man said:


> I have a light that has clocked at least 10,000 hours on a set of AA eneloops. Is it dim? Yes, but that only matters if you don't need light. It draws something around .10-.15 mA (I think it is about 3mA-6mA to make a lumen depending on the emitter so it is close to the brightness of your lantern.)
> 
> It is a 5mm LED stuck into a HF 2AA minimag look alike, on eneloops it has a fair bit flatter regulation vs alkalines.


One thing I have in my pocket is an old UK 2AAA side by side light that I swapped in a head from a rayovac keychain LED light turning it to a direct drive light. I put in 2 lithium AAAs and basically use it as a battery carrier for my LD01SS light but if needed the higher voltage of the lithiums have the light putting out about 10-15 lumens or so for probably days. I haven't had to use the batteries since I put them in as backup I've probably had them in there since 2010 when I got the Fenix light. 

I would like to say direct drive LED lights (2 ~1.5v cells) are a great choice for emergencies when you don't need a lot of light and cheap incans converted to direct drive LEDs that can be fed with cheap disposable batteries are IMO preferred over using lithiums as the cost of runtime is dirt cheap and you can sometimes get 30 batteries for the price of 4 lithium batteries. It is only when you find yourself not using your emergency stash of batteries in over 5 year increments that lithiums start being a competing factor in cheap throwaway lights. For occasional use nimh direct drive is wonderful and IMO lithium direct drive is more useful due to it is brighter but kind of a waste because at the low levels of power needed a lithium battery doesn't give you any advantage over an alkaline other than storage length and leakage problems.


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## SaraAB87 (Dec 28, 2014)

*Re: Battery Question (Alkaline Leaks)*



MidnightDistortions said:


> I have yet to see an alkaline leak in the pack. I have, however seen them leak in devices which is usually a pain to clean out, with all that powdery white stuff. There was one battery that looked like it burned the heck out of a negative connection on my PS2 DVD remote.



I have had them leak on at least 3 occasions while just sitting in my battery box. It's a plastic box with compartments, if I had left them in the pack they would have leaked in the pack.


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## H-Man (Dec 28, 2014)

Lynx_Arc said:


> One thing I have in my pocket is an old UK 2AAA side by side light that I swapped in a head from a rayovac keychain LED light turning it to a direct drive light. I put in 2 lithium AAAs and basically use it as a battery carrier for my LD01SS light but if needed the higher voltage of the lithiums have the light putting out about 10-15 lumens or so for probably days. I haven't had to use the batteries since I put them in as backup I've probably had them in there since 2010 when I got the Fenix light.
> 
> I would like to say direct drive LED lights (2 ~1.5v cells) are a great choice for emergencies when you don't need a lot of light and cheap incans converted to direct drive LEDs that can be fed with cheap disposable batteries are IMO preferred over using lithiums as the cost of runtime is dirt cheap and you can sometimes get 30 batteries for the price of 4 lithium batteries. It is only when you find yourself not using your emergency stash of batteries in over 5 year increments that lithiums start being a competing factor in cheap throwaway lights. For occasional use nimh direct drive is wonderful and IMO lithium direct drive is more useful due to it is brighter but kind of a waste because at the low levels of power needed a lithium battery doesn't give you any advantage over an alkaline other than storage length and leakage problems.



I run this light 24/7/365 because besides the curiosity about how long it can go on NiMH (I swapped out the eneloops after a year and drained them, they had 600 mah left which would run it for at least another 6 months) I'm able to always find my flashlights in the event of a power failure without knocking anything over or stubbing a toe in the process.


For lithium direct drive, I'd prefer a 1xCR123 powered light because I don't have to worry about cell reversal and a depleted CR123 can still run a 5mm LED pretty bright.


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## MidnightDistortions (Dec 28, 2014)

*Re: Battery Question (Alkaline Leaks)*



SaraAB87 said:


> I have had them leak on at least 3 occasions while just sitting in my battery box. It's a plastic box with compartments, if I had left them in the pack they would have leaked in the pack.



A good reason why i don't put alkalines in a battery box. I just use an empty lunch meat container, luckily they don't leak but a few batteries have been growing some white corrosive material. With that being said i'm fairly close of using up all the alkalines i had collected over the years, sometimes they'll get used for experiments, others are in devices i'm not too worried about. I'm slowly collecting Eneloops to replace all my devices as well, i don't want any leaking batteries . Until then my crap batteries is taking up some of the low drain devices (like remotes) because i don't want those things to get ruined by alkaleaks.


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## Tjin (Dec 30, 2014)

*Re: Battery Question (Alkaline Leaks)*

I primarily use Eneloops for regular use and have enough left in reserve that they will cover most emergency's.

I have some alkalines for equipment which are worth very little (bicyle lights) or emergency equipment which require alkaline batteries; most smoke detectors (9V battery have different properties than the alkaline ones), avalanche peepers (says alkaline only on the package, besides get replaced regularly and worn under your jacket), ATEX certified equipment (often only certified using one battery time; alkaline), etc.

A few stacks of AA lithium batteries for longer emergency's,


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