# Trail Runners, Fastpackers & Urban Runners, What Lamps Do You Use?



## Genzod (May 30, 2017)

*
What do you as a runner use for a headlamp at night, and what output settings do you use to negotiate various course conditions?*

I've read so many experts telling us how many lumens we need for running at night. The first opinion I came across was given by a popular YouTube blogger who said "100 lumens". The next blogger I read said "a minimum of 100-120 lumens". A decorated ultra-marathoner said she liked to use 85 lm but bumped it up to 170 when the trail got really technical. Slower runners like fastpackers thru-hiking a mountainous, national trail tend to prefer something between 50-100 lumens.

_They can't be all right...right?_ :thinking:

Actually, they are. What they are describing is best for _them_ given the _context_ of their own running style, the different courses they run on, their personal preference between brightness level and rate of battery consumption and the design of the specific headlamps that they use. What _you_ will need for night time running depends on your own personal set of variables.

I initiated this thread for sharing our experiences running with headlamps so new runners could make a more informed selection choosing a headlamp that will provide the most suitable light for their night time running needs.​*
So to help these new runners, my question seeks the context of your headlamp use as a runner. (**Keep one headlamp in mind when answering the following suggested questions):*​



[*=2]How fast are you running with this lamp?
[*=2]How far ahead do you tend to look or need to see to chart a course through immediate obstacles?
[*=2]What kind of terrain are you running on in _this particular instance?_ Is it steep, rocky, rooty, wet, muddy, sandy, narrow, winding or asphalt, wide open, and flat? Remember, a _specific lamp_ under a _specific trail description_.
[*=2]What is the nature/structure of the light beam your lamp is putting out? How many lumens, flood, spot/spill, or diffused?
[*=2]What brand and model of lamp are you using in this particular instance?
[*=2]What output settings (lumens) are you using under different conditions?
[*=2]Does that amount of light in that instance seem on the_ marginal side, moderate middle _or on high side of being enough for running?
[*=2]Is the level of light or type of beam you are describing impacted by fog, precipitation or snow cover?
​
There are no wrong answers here and the list isn't necessarily exhaustive. I'm interested in learning what works best for _you _so other people can get an idea of what might work best for them.

Some examples of helpfully formatted responses are provided below.

And please, remember to have mercy on the forum members reading here. Don't click "reply with quote" to this introduction!​
You can share as many lamps/situations/conditions as you are kind enough to do. Try to focus on a _specific_ example with a corresponding headlamp and settings (one lamp at a time) so readers can get a feel for the differences between each. If you want to share about more than one headlamp, discuss them in separate paragraphs to minimize confusion.​

Fictitious Examples: 

_"I used Brand A model 2 (spot/spill beam geometry) on a setting of 50 lumens and fastpacked mountain trail at an average speed of 3.5 mph, and that light was just right for most situations except when the trail became very technical with turns and wet roots, then I needed 100 lumens to be more sure of my footing. I think 50 and 100 from this lamp in those situations was on the economic side of battery conservation. 

"I've used Brand B model 4 (pure flood) for urban street running at a steady 9 minute mile pace on mildly hilly asphalt road. The light was very short range and not very useful at the lower outputs, but 700 lumens and above was very useful. I had enough range at 700 lm to have plenty of warning time for obstacles , and the intensity was still effective even as the occasional car with lights on approached me. The lamp shifted down after 60 minutes of use, but my nightly runs usually never last that long. I just hook the USB to my computer and it's ready for the next night's running."_​


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## Genzod (May 30, 2017)

*Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!*

I'll start off by giving my experience.

I have used the Princeton Tec Quad (2011 version) to fastpack the AT in southwestern VA at night. With an 11 lb pack and body weight of 190 lbs, I typically run 16 hours a day at an average speed of 2.65 mph (3.2-3.5mph level). The trail here is very rocky as opposed to rooty, very steep at times, open and tends to run straight following ridge-line without a lot of winding. The headlamp provides a wide beam (90 degrees), and it has a relatively strong spot (10 degrees). There are only three settings, and I always use medium for running, which is about 21 lumens. I tend to point the spot in such a way as to see everything on the ground within 2 seconds of distance ahead of me. The brightness at medium is plenty enough to do the job for that speed and terrain, never marginal and yet economical. As I lose weight and increase fitness, I will probably approach an average 3.5mph (4.2-4.6mph level) in this section, and I will need more light to look a bit farther ahead of me.


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## geokite (May 30, 2017)

*Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!*

1) About 3-4 mph, depending on fitness.
2) 10-15 feet
3) Steep, rocky trail up and around a mountain of 900' elevation difference over about 1.5 mile long trail (Cowles Mtn. in San Diego).
4, 5) DIY knuckle lights (a H502d on the back of each hand) at 73 lum each, pure flood. Hand carry a SC52d for the things that go bump in the bushes, 300 lum with 14500, only on when needed (usually not at all).
6) Sometimes I can get away with 36 lum for each of the H502d, but not usually. Not a whole lot of variation around here when I trail run at night.
7) Because I know the trail so well (20 years), 73 lum is plenty of light. I'll have to try an unknown trail some time 

I really prefer pure flood for trails, running or hiking. Unless I'm fearing bears or mountain lions, I see no need to see as far as I can during the day. Running and hiking with pure flood gives me the feeling of being under full moon light, as it fades away into the distance.

Steve


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## Genzod (May 30, 2017)

*Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!*



geokite said:


> I really prefer pure flood for trails, running or hiking. Unless I'm fearing bears or mountain lions, I see no need to see as far as I can during the day. Running and hiking with pure flood gives me the feeling of being under full moon light, as it fades away into the distance.
> 
> Steve



I really like the light of a pure flood. As a fastpacker, I like to carry one lamp to save weight. The spot/spill lamps give me some range to find trail blaze markers.


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## Woods Walker (May 31, 2017)

*Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!*


How fast are you running?
How far ahead do you tend to look or need to see to chart a course through obstacles?
What kind of terrain are you running on--steep, rocky, rooty, wet, muddy, sandy, narrow, winding or asphalt, wide open, and flat?
What is the nature of the light you are using--lumens, flood, spot/spill, or diffused?
What brand and model of lamp do you use?
What settings are you using under different conditions?
Does that amount of light seem marginal or plenty enough to increase confidence so you can run at your best?

1. About 4 to 6 mpr for maybe 6-20 miles.

2. Whatever happens happens. The trails and woods are too unpredictable with heavy Forrest cover. Tress go down, rocks slide and there is flooding. 

3. Everything listed.

4. Often headlamps but occasionally flashlights. Overall during bad weather flashlights tend to be better. I prefer 50-100 lumens when moving fast.

5. Armtek, Fenix, Nitecore and others as well. 

6. Try to use the least amount possible which often makes no logic. Should just crank it up as often have more than enough battery power but my longer range outing discipline is hard to break.


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## Woods Walker (May 31, 2017)

*Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!*

There are more factors than the listed 6 which are also important IMHO for a good trail running experience but mobile now so will update later.


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## Genzod (May 31, 2017)

*Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!*



Woods Walker said:


> There are more factors than the listed 6 which are also important IMHO for a good trail running experience but mobile now so will update later.



Feel free to suggest additional factors for the list and I will update it. Thanks for your help!


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## TCY (May 31, 2017)

*Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!*

Good thread, I hope more people can contribute. I'm not a runner so don't have anything to share. I'm surprised that people can run comfortably with sub-100 lumens at night, I'm more of a "wanna see everything in front of me" kinda guy. Guess batteries hate me:devil:


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## Genzod (May 31, 2017)

*Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!*



TCY said:


> Good thread, I hope more people can contribute. I'm not a runner so don't have anything to share. I'm surprised that people can run comfortably with sub-100 lumens at night, I'm more of a "wanna see everything in front of me" kinda guy. Guess batteries hate me:devil:



Feel free to say something short and simple like "Although I'm not a runner, I use the ZL-H52w hiking speeds around 2.5-3.0 mph and prefer the 25 lumen setting for backpacking in mountainous terrain. Any lower than the next medium of 12 lm, and I start stepping on Koalas." (That would highlight the effect of speed on light requirements).


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## Genzod (May 31, 2017)

*Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!*



Woods Walker said:


> Try to use the least amount possible which often makes no logic. Should just crank it up as often have more than enough battery power but my longer range outing discipline is hard to break.



Actually there is wisdom in consistently using economic levels of light if you have a need for it, and I think you are subconsciously aware of the reason. Spoiling yourself with more light than you need, even if it is not for an extended trip, can have an addictive result, making the "high" of your extended trail running adventures not as luminously satisfying. Best to keep yourself trained with one intensity level, so it is always easy to keep using it!


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## ThinAirDesigns (May 31, 2017)

*Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!*

I am an ultra-distance trail runner and I just finished (Saturday) a successful completion of the SCAR (Smokie Challenge Adventure Race) - 75 miles of the Appalachian Trail through the Smokie Mountain National Park. Like many ultra-distance events, this required running on steep technical terrain through the night. I worked pretty hard the last 6 months or so getting my lighting the way I wanted it (I have a thread on this forum sharing some of that work) and I was quite pleased with my final results. 

I don't have time at the moment, but in the next 24 I will share what I finally settled on and how it worked for me.

JB


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## Genzod (May 31, 2017)

*Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!*



ThinAirDesigns said:


> I am an ultra-distance trail runner and I just finished (Saturday) a successful completion of the SCAR (Smokie Challenge Adventure Race) - 75 miles of the Appalachian Trail through the Smokie Mountain National Park. JB



I remember SMNP. Lots of step up and step down pounding on the knees. You could come around a bend or a crest and quite literally stumble over a bear. A picture is worth a 1000 words:






I'm looking forward to your post about your lighting system. Looks like you mastered the art of the Trail-Jedi, your own personalized "lightsaber"! Reminds me of _Darth Maul's _for some reason...:thinking:


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## TCY (May 31, 2017)

*Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!*



Genzod said:


> Feel free to say something short and simple like "Although I'm not a runner, I use the ZL-H52w hiking speeds around 2.5-3.0 mph and prefer the 25 lumen setting for backpacking in mountainous terrain. Any lower than the next medium of 12 lm, and I start stepping on Koalas." (That would highlight the effect of speed on light requirements).



Problem is I rarely step out the door at night... I would like to step on koalas but they are probably all munching leaves on top of zoo trees


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## Genzod (Jun 3, 2017)

*Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!*

Lumen requirements can change with speed. What you deemed sufficient to walk with may not be what you need to run fast with. I'll give you an example walking and running with the Princeton Tec Quad. 

My Quad (may it rest in peace) provided practical light for hiking speeds of up to 2.64 mph at the lowest setting of 8 lm (fastest case being downhill). I tend to want 2 seconds of reaction time for obstacles, so this places the top edge of the 10 degree spot around 2 m ahead of me. If I were to start running at about 5mph, getting that 2 second distance lit up in front of me requires an aim that places that leading edge about 4.5 m ahead.

The requirement is, having intensity at the center of the spot equal in both cases for approximately similar brightness of light. Since the ratio of distances from the head to the ground in both cases increases by about the square root of 2, the intensity roughly halves, so doubling lumens to 16 is required. 

But perceived and measure light are two different animals. As _received_ light increases, the pupil contracts, so more light _output_ is needed to compensate. In a room, lighting technicians use a square root formula (point source) between % changes of measured and perceived intensity. I'm assuming that's the case to jive experience with calculation. Accuracy isn't as important here as consistency is when modeling the instances of two different speeds.

So to make the measured center point intensity _seem_ to match, the_ perceived_ change in intensity must double from 8 to 16*. That means measured must increase from 8 to 32, since that side of the equation is handled by the square root operator. 16/8 = sqrt(32/8). So a minimum of 32 lumens of measured output is required.
*(I use lumens in the ratio because the area of my field of perception isn't changing. If you have one small spot of equal intensity on a wall, and then create a much larger spot in its place _with the same intensity_, the intensities are equal, but you have extra lumens that are now blinding you. The lumens in the ring outside the perimeter of the original spot are like the extra lumens you get from a car with its headlamps on when approaching you. Those extra lumens in your field of vision make it harder to see the road because they contract the pupil. It's the same way with a room. Your field of vision doesn't change, and if you assume the light is evenly spread in the room, particularly in your field of vision, you can use output lumens in the equation and get the same results.)

​Crab apple forum trolls looking for an opportunity to unload some pent up energy will note, if the spot intensity (returning to the eye) sent farther down range doesn't seem different once adjusted to equal the prior intensity of the slower speed at closer range, why would the pupil contract? Perception of spot intensity is equal despite the increase in measured light because the spot is farther away. (Leans back from his keyboard with a self-congratulatory pat on his back over his seemingly successful rhetorical parley.):touche:​
_En garde, monsieur pussycat:_ The spill light in the foreground is still hitting trees, brush and the ground at roughly the same distances as before, and increasing intensity of the spot to match the first case at slower speed increases apparent intensity in the foreground spill, making the spot intensity seem dimmer due to pupil contraction. Therefore more light is required to counteract the intensity increases in the spill light until the perceived intensity of the spot is equalized.

Now the required output is 32 lm minimum (formerly 8 lm). That's a substantial (noticeable) difference in light requirement. The medium setting of this light is about 20 lm, so I would need to use the high setting of 45 lm. (I would need a more efficient light now because that high setting doesn't last long.)

The math is just an approximation (a useful tool an engineering designer might use to establish a "ballpark" design constraint if you will), but it is useful here to demonstrate the fact that variations in speed can have different lumen requirements.

:thinking: *Please note:* I'm still trying to verify the way I used the math here. From experience, I have to use the higher setting of 20 lm on the Quad when I run 33% faster at 3.5 mph (Math suggests I need 15 lm for equivalent light, and that seems right since the 20 seems to provide more confident light than I had when walking with 8 lm). It seems reasonable that I would need more than 20 if I run _89% _ faster at 5 mph, so that seems to check. 

But the point isn't _have I done the math of the estimate properly_, the point is, _speed increases need for higher lamp output_. The intensity of the spot is inversely proportional to the square of the distance between the lamp and the ground target. A speed increase will require you to move that aim farther ahead of you, if you seek the same 2 second reaction time distance. That increase in throw distance diminishes the intensity of the light at the spot center, requiring a compensating boost in lumens and a further correction for pupil contraction to restore intensity to the former level.


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## Woods Walker (Jun 4, 2017)

*Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!*

1. Comfort. The headlamp has gotta be comfortable to run with.

2. Adjustable on the fly and not slip out of adjustment. 

3. Be prepared.

If night jogging the street I really really want to be seen. 









Even on the trail I like to have reflector straps on the pack for times I break trail to cross roads etc.





If in the woods I will pack some kit. Remember if jogging it doesn't take long to be miles from the trail head. A mechanical injury can happen to anyone. Pack the phone and let a responsible person know your plans and expected return. It's called a float plan.





Flashlight and headlamp. Pack both as sometime one is better than the other and two is one and one is none.





UL Knife and ferro rod.





Larger PSK.






Know when to show down. I was scampering down rocks last night testing a new headlamp. You gotta watch every step and hand hold. 3 points of contact.





The spot above my heel got sliced by off all things a rose. No kidding. Up to 5 tick bites so far this spring as well.





The winter has it's own issues.









Beyond cars the street has it's own dangers.





Not trying to sound dramatic but running at night has it's risks. Accidents can happen so work up to rougher ground and physical goals. What hurts you for real doesn't make you stronger. It just makes you injured so take care and have a float plan.


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## planetrunner (Jun 4, 2017)

*Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!*

Jumping in on this thread because it's interesting to see what other trail runners are using... and prefer. I'm a trail runner in Ottawa, Canada -- mostly running at night in the Gatineau Hills either solo or with my local trail run club. 


1. Running about 5:30/km to 7:30/km depending on the elevation. Downhills can get up to 4:30/km.
2. On winding and technical single track 50 meters is enough to see ahead. On open fireroad/wider trails, I like 100 meters minimum.
3. Technical: mud, roots, rocks, brush
4. I've had the best luck using lumens (more power the better), tend to lean towards Flood beams (especially on winding trails)
5. Fenix HL50 and Ay Up Run (metal casing all the way!)
6. Flood light for most nighttime conditions, spotlight when foggy/rainy
7. Having the rights trail shoes and running technique build more confidence than having the right light (no light will make up for sloppy foot technique on trails)

Having done a number of ultras and broken so many headlights over the years, the one thing I'd say is that the build quality of a headlamps matters so much for a trail runner. Even the best runners will accidentally clip a tree branch with their headlamp, drop it, or unintentionally bang it up. 

With races like UTMB coming up, it'd be cool to pull together a list of all the headlamps the ultra guys/girls are using in rotation right now.


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## Genzod (Jun 4, 2017)

*Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!*



Woods Walker said:


> 1. Comfort. The headlamp has gotta be comfortable to run with.
> 
> 2. Adjustable on the fly and not slip out of adjustment.
> 
> 3. Be prepared.



Are these the additions you wanted for the list?


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## Woods Walker (Jun 4, 2017)

*Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!*

Not asking anything to be added to a list. Just giving my field experience. To be honest very often I use what's on hand if pushing late. Only on the internet do we always have the perfect tool for a job however skills and safety precautions are transferable to any kit. I don't know why one person wants 700 lumens and another 100. It's interesting to talk about the beam shape, exact lumens for every localized environment, preferred tint etc etc etc. That's cool but now maybe if the uninitiated are reading this thread they will be reminded of issues which along with the exact lumen setting someone else prefers might help prevent injury or could mitigate the chain of events after. It's in my nature to do this.


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## Woods Walker (Jun 4, 2017)

*Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!*

Another consideration is weather conditions. That greatly influences what output and beam I prefer when trail running. Have some photos but will post them later.


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## Genzod (Jun 4, 2017)

*Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!*



Woods Walker said:


> Another consideration is weather conditions. That greatly influences what output and beam I prefer when trail running. Have some photos but will post them later.



That's a good one. I added it as #8 to the list.

Do you have any recommendations for useful light in fog, Woods Walker? It's almost impossible to navigate in mountain fog with a floody cool white lamp even if it has a spot. I tried to negotiate a right turn onto a road and then another right turn off the road somewhere around mile 8-10 on the AT in GA, and the fog was so thick It took me a half hour to successfully negotiate the 50 yard (or less) maneuver because I couldn't find the tree markers with my headlamp. 

Do you find warmer tints and powerful narrow beams work better in fog? How about red light, does that make a difference? Does holding and aiming the lamp from the waist help any?


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## Genzod (Jun 4, 2017)

*Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!*



planetrunner said:


> Jumping in on this thread because it's interesting to see what other trail runners are using... and prefer. I'm a trail runner in Ottawa, Canada -- mostly running at night in the Gatineau Hills either solo or with my local trail run club.
> 
> 
> 1. Running about 5:30/km to 7:30/km depending on the elevation. Downhills can get up to 4:30/km.
> ...



Thanks for your input!

I agree with 100 m being a good range. How about in the foreground? When running at about a 6:30/km pace (10:28/mi) through trail, how far ahead do you tend to keep your attention to react to immediate obstacles? Of course we often look up to look down the trail to navigate, but I'm thinking in terms of foot placement in the immediate field. I think this is where most of our light tends to be focused, in that immediate interval.

Do you tend to orbit a particular favorite setting on the Fenix HL50, in particular, technical trail around 6:30/km pace or so? 

A certain trail runner once discussed how technical conditions created a need for extra light. She wanted to go up to 170 lumens, but she was afraid she would deplete her battery and she'd have to stop for a battery change during the race. She didn't want to do that. While she described the light at 170 put more confidence in her foot placement (because she could see better), she settled instead for the lower setting around 85 lumens, and _got by_ with that. 

That's what I mean in differentiating the light setting you use. Is the lumen setting you describe for a given lamp on a certain course at a certain speed just enough light to get you by or is it so bright it boosts confidence in your gait?


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## planetrunner (Jun 5, 2017)

*Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!*



Genzod said:


> Thanks for your input!
> 
> I agree with 100 m being a good range. How about in the foreground? When running at about a 6:30/km pace (10:28/mi) through trail, how far ahead do you tend to keep your attention to react to immediate obstacles? Of course we often look up to look down the trail to navigate, but I'm thinking in terms of foot placement in the immediate field. I think this is where most of our light tends to be focused, in that immediate interval.
> 
> ...




Great questions!

Having enough light to see in the immediate foot field, as you mentioned, is what matters to me most as a mid-pack trail runner. Or simply when I'm training alone. I basically need enough light to see about 100 meters ahead with some flood like spill so I can get a sense of what's coming up under foot. 

On this point, one of the reasons I bought the HL50 from Fenix was because I could tilt the light freely up or down to see underfoot. There are a lot of 45 degree verticals and descents where I live (example: https://www.strava.com/activities/1005865482). Being able to very quickly adjust the light downwards to not epically fall down a ski hill is super helpful!

I tend to use the HL50's max setting (170 lumens, I believe) and use only a CR123A battery instead of a rechargeable AA. Occasionally, I'll switch to the medium setting if there's enough light pollution from the city. It doesn't happen all that often to be honest. 

I think you raised a really good point about preferred lumens versus enough to get by. This might be an interesting issue to tackle by seeing what trail runners use by the terrain type they run. For instance, when I was living in Toronto, I was mostly running buffed out single track trails at night that had minimal tree overhand. 80 lumens was more than enough to get by. By contrast, living in Ottawa and running in the Gatineaus, I'm deep in the forest on trails surrounded by cliffs and foliage. 100 lumens minimum is needed if I'm on my own. 

Over the years, I've found that the right shoes, technique, *then* headlamp is what really helps make the most of night trail run. The right shoes can help you sense what's underfoot and react quickly in case something shifts. I find my confidence goes down when I don't have the right shoes for the terrain I'm on.

I'd also throw out there that the right amount of lumens depends on the experience a trail runner wants to have. The racing type lean towards the Ay Up products in my neck of the woods, while the mid-pack guys enjoy 100-200 lumens, and the slow guys stick around 200 lumens. Different brightness for different folks.


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## Genzod (Jun 5, 2017)

*Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!*



planetrunner said:


> Having enough light to see in the immediate foot field, as you mentioned, is what matters to me most as a mid-pack trail runner. Or simply when I'm training alone. I basically need enough light to see about 100 meters ahead with some flood like spill so I can get a sense of what's coming up under foot.
> 
> I think you raised a really good point about preferred lumens versus enough to get by. This might be an interesting issue to tackle by seeing what trail runners use by the terrain type they run. For instance, when I was living in Toronto, I was mostly running buffed out single track trails at night that had minimal tree overhand. 80 lumens was more than enough to get by. By contrast, living in Ottawa and running in the Gatineaus, I'm deep in the forest on trails surrounded by cliffs and foliage. 100 lumens minimum is needed if I'm on my own.



_"Having enough light to see in the immediate foot field, as you mentioned, is what matters to me most as a mid-pack trail runner. Or simply when I'm training alone. I basically need enough light to see about 100 meters ahead with some flood like spill so I can get a sense of what's coming up under foot."_
Lets focus then on the distance in the _very immediate_ foreground--from your feet out to as far as maybe 7-10m. When I'm looking down (most of the time) to watch the immediate foreground for foot placement, I tend to use the intense spot and bright, close spill to light up maybe 2 seconds worth of what's in front of me at my speed. (Of course I look up from time to time to see the bigger picture so I can stay on course, then a boost to a higher output becomes expedient.) Some people might understand that warning time interval better as a distance (in my case everything up to about 3-3.5 m at my all day endurance speed). Do you tend to focus on a certain immediate foreground distance, and if so, _how much distance do you think that is? (for a given speed)._​
_"I think you raised a really good point about preferred lumens versus enough to get by. This might be an interesting issue to tackle by seeing what trail runners use by the terrain type they run. For instance, when I was living in Toronto, I was mostly running buffed out single track trails at night that had minimal tree overhand. 80 lumens was more than enough to get by. By contrast, living in Ottawa and running in the Gatineaus, I'm deep in the forest on trails surrounded by cliffs and foliage. 100 lumens minimum is needed if I'm on my own."_
Your experience "sheds a little light" on a fact I brought up in my discussion about _perceived light verses measured light_. This is _exactly_ what I'm looking for in this discussion. You needed more light when there was more reflection off of nearby foliage and cliffs but less when the sky was more open. This reflection from close objects causes our pupil to react by shrinking. When the pupil lets in less light, what we need to see dims, and we require more light to compensate. It's a milder form of what happens when inconsiderate drivers approach us with their high-beams on. 

People with a tendency to over-generalize might say you can't discern the difference between such small differences in light (going from 80-100 lm). The difference between a _measured_ 100 and 80 lumens is a 25% increase, but we tend to _perceive_ it approximately as a 12% increase in intensity. Clearly _you_ have been able to tell the difference since it makes a difference in your ability to more effectively see the trail.​


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## Genzod (Jun 5, 2017)

*Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!*

*Headlamp Output Options & Playing the Lumen Lottery

*I've noticed many headlamp manufacturers have relatively few output options in their model lines. More often I see only 3-5. 

The max output (anywhere from 300-1000 lm) is good for momentarily seeing far downrange. Persistent use of that setting for running won't last long, and if you are in an endurance race that can last over 20-30 hours, you don't want to be using this setting too often unless you like the weight of carrying extra batteries and have plenty of spare time to stop and reload.

A high medium or low high setting tends to be good for the long haul, anywhere between 50 and 200 lumens. If you only have one choice (say 100), that might work for you in most instances, but if anything changes like how close you are to reflecting objects or you pick up speed running down grade a lot, not having another choice aside from the highest output can be terribly inconvenient.

Going up a long grade, you slow down, and your reaction time distance decreases. So you can choose a lower battery conserving setting, maybe 30 lm, if it is available. Going downhill, your speed can increase substantially, and your reaction time distance will increase. You'll need more light to reach the edge of that distance with the same intensity. 170-200 lm might work better then.

But the setting isn't so much important here as the number of options you can choose from. The more options you have, the more closely you can tailor the light to your needs as they change. This helps you conserve battery, carry less weight and save time from having to stop and reload. If you are an urban runner who only runs close to home an hour each night on a rechargeable battery, that probably doesn't matter to you. 

In my opinion, the best headlamp configuration for output level options is one with an infinite rotary dimmer feature with a max output around 500 lm. Manufacturers are becoming more aware of this need, and they are providing more models that include it: For example: *Thrunite TH20* *Nitecore HC90* (heavy) *Surefire Minimus *& *Maximus *(heavy & pricey). I don't recommend the rotary *Imalent HR20* due to quality control and manufacturing issues.

The next best configuration I think is the Zebralight single AA and CR123A configurations, now with over 12 programmable options. For example, the new *ZL H53w* and *Fw* can be programmed to a 2x3 array of _any_ six choices that work best for you, and you can set up three different 2x3 arrays for different running modalities (slow mountain trail running and faster urban running for example). I think 12, 30, 65, 122, 198, 330 would work well in my case for mountain trail fastpacking, even as my fitness improves. Your needs might be different. 

The thing I like in particular about the ZL's is the spacing of the outputs. I don't very often see that in other brands. I usually only see one setting, in the range of 70-180 lm that might work well most of the time, a minimum setting for maps, and a max setting for down range searching. (*The Armytek **Tiara A1 Pro v2*, for example). As a slower runner I might use 12 for ascents, 65 for following ridgelines, and 122 for descents. As an improved runner, I might use 30 for climbs, 122 for ridgelines and 198 for descents. If you make an error judging what output you need for running when you make a purchase, the output spacing and number of options on the newer ZL's is more forgiving. It gets you closer to where you want to be.

Unfortunately, the maximum range on the H53w is only around 69m now (down from about 85m) due to dropping lithium ion battery support. Until an H33w is released with better max output due to the higher voltage of the CR123A battery, I would have to compensate for attenuated range with something like an *Eagletac D25C mini* Or the *Fenix E15*. When ZL gets their act together and includes the voltage boosting inductors of the *Zebralight SC5w MkII* handheld in later edition right angle headlamps, as they have indicated is their intention, one lightweight ZL headlamp will be able to do it all.

*The Petzl Nao+* is a dynamically adjusting headlamp that detects the target object distance and sets the output to whatever meets your pre-programmed preference for light intensity. Unfortunately, it also detects the mist from your exhaled air that fogs in front of it, and dims the light in accordance to the range detected. Having the sensor above the mouth can be terribly inconvenient. It's also heavy and terribly pricey.

The new runner should be aware that not all headlamps are equal when it comes to producing the light you will need. Without understanding your lighting needs before purchase, you may as well be playing the lumen lottery when you buy your ticket. It's therefore really important to hedge your bets with a model that has many settings in the range you might find the most useful for your running.


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## planetrunner (Jun 5, 2017)

*Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!*



Genzod said:


> Lets focus then on the distance in the _very immediate_ foreground--from your feet out to as far as maybe 7-10m. When I'm looking down (most of the time) to watch the immediate foreground for foot placement, I tend to use the intense spot and bright, close spill to light up maybe 2 seconds worth of what's in front of me at my speed. (Of course I look up from time to time to see the bigger picture so I can stay on course, then a boost to a higher output becomes expedient.) Some people might understand that warning time interval better as a distance (in my case everything up to about 3-3.5 m at my all day endurance speed). Do you tend to focus on a certain immediate foreground distance, and if so, _how much distance do you think that is? (for a given speed)._​



Really cool to hear how you dial in your headlamp settings for your terrain, pacing, and style. What kind of trails do you run?

For my style of trail running, I tend to focus my lights as far out from my feet as possible using the high setting. Typically to the point where the spotlight becomes like a floodlight. I'd crudely say this means 10-15m+ away from my feet. Only time I might adjust this distance is if I'm going down a really steep hill. 

From my experience, immediate distance settings depend on the individual runner. Just a crude example below to demonstrate that. Both a trail runners with good form on a non-technical trail with a slight include. Both have their headlights angled completely different. The right hand runner reflects my style, while the left hand runner has focussed their light on what's immediately in front of him (looks slightly exaggerated by his head pointing down somewhat). 






All said, I have to echo your comment in the next post that having multiple lighting options is a real plus -- particularly for trail running. The only thing I would add is the ability to freely adjust the angle of the light relative to the incline/decline. Despite its quirks, I love my HL50 for that specific reason.


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## xdayv (Jun 5, 2017)

Would a handheld light used momentarily be advisable to augment a headlamp?


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## Genzod (Jun 5, 2017)

xdayv said:


> Would a handheld light used momentarily be advisable to augment a headlamp?



I thought of supplementing a floody Zebralight H53w with a throwy 2016 Fenix E15. I could do distant searches with the Fenix, and use it as a redundancy backup (with diffusion film). The tighter beam of the Fenix might work better cutting through mountain fog.


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## Genzod (Jun 5, 2017)

*Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!*



planetrunner said:


> Really cool to hear how you dial in your headlamp settings for your terrain, pacing, and style. What kind of trails do you run?
> 
> For my style of trail running, I tend to focus my lights as far out from my feet as possible using the high setting. Typically to the point where the spotlight becomes like a floodlight. I'd crudely say this means 10-15m+ away from my feet. Only time I might adjust this distance is if I'm going down a really steep hill.
> 
> ...



In the summer and fall I go out to the Appalachian Trail in central and southwestern Virginia. These trails tend to be very rocky and steep at times, but can also follow logging roads and ridgeline. Except for some grassy balds and open farm land here and there, the trail tends to be covered with forest. One place is 4 miles of nothing but hopping basketball sized rocks. Elevation in the sections I run vary between 1000-4000 ft. (300-1200m). 15% grades are pretty typical. 

The lamp I had been using, which "gave up the ghost" on my last outing, was only good at the medium setting for my current level of running fitness. It only had three settings, and two of those were impractical for what I was doing. So I didn't tailor my light settings. "Dialing in" as a practice will be employed with my _next_ headlamp, which will probably be the newly released Zebralight H53w or a yet future H33w.

When I'm not injuring myself and losing my fitness, I train (for fitness only) on the level streets of my suburban neighborhood. I train mostly at night. Oddly enough, I don't carry a lamp. I find the ambient street light sufficient provided I stay on the asphalted roads.


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## Woods Walker (Jun 5, 2017)

*Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!*



Genzod said:


> That's a good one. I added it as #8 to the list.
> 
> Do you have any recommendations for useful light in fog, Woods Walker? It's almost impossible to navigate in mountain fog with a floody cool white lamp even if it has a spot. I tried to negotiate a right turn onto a road and then another right turn off the road somewhere around mile 8-10 on the AT in GA, and the fog was so thick It took me a half hour to successfully negotiate the 50 yard (or less) maneuver because I couldn't find the tree markers with my headlamp.
> 
> Do you find warmer tints and powerful narrow beams work better in fog? How about red light, does that make a difference? Does holding and aiming the lamp from the waist help any?



Some photos from tonight's street jog.





Time of day also maters. When jogging the street at dusk (more so during rain) I like to use the headlamp on a medium mode. Not really to see the street as often can see ok but to be seen by cars. Also the extra light helps as dusk gives way to night. But in the woods I want brighter as the fading daylight washes out the headlamp and when going under tree over or behind ridge lines etc etc it can get dark really fast or maybe brighter once the cover is broken.





NU20 High CRI on med.





As rain got heavier I cracked out the Viking NW.









I don't use red for much of anything. Also not sure tint matters with rain/snow/fog compared to beam pattern. It seems less flood is better in bad weather. I do think NW or Warm feels better in bad weather but am undecided if that really honestly makes it better in terms of getting the job done. Always made it back regardless of tint. A 219B tint is no better than any Cree CW in weather IMHO. A flashlight all things being reasonably equal tends to be better than a headlamp in the worst of the worst.


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## stephenk (Jun 6, 2017)

*Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!*

Urban night running I think the 70 lumens from my Fenix HL10 is spot on. 
For trail running (rough ground) I prefer the 150 to 250 lumen range. 
Floody beams are essential to allow for illumination of your next foot strike as well as bright illumination of the next few metres ahead. 
Neutral and/or high-CRI beams are much more pleasant, and help to identify objects you may step on.


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## Genzod (Jun 6, 2017)

*Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!*



stephenk said:


> Urban night running I think the 70 lumens from my Fenix HL10 is spot on.
> For trail running (rough ground) I prefer the 150 to 250 lumen range.
> Floody beams are essential to allow for illumination of your next foot strike as well as bright illumination of the next few metres ahead.
> Neutral and/or high-CRI beams are much more pleasant, and help to identify objects you may step on.



How fast do you tend to move on the street with the 70 lumen floody Fenix HL10? Do you tend to aim the center of the beam at any particular distance from your feet?

Your Fenix has a rotatable diffuser. Do you find that light is more pleasant to run with than with spot bounce generated by a running gait, or does it dim the light too much?


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## ThinAirDesigns (Jun 6, 2017)

*Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!*

Sorry for more delay than I intended, but here's my attempt at a contribution to this excellent and useful thread.

I am a 56 year old male who took up ultramarathon mountain trail running 3 years ago - a form of running that often requires one to negotiate technical terrain at night. I mention my age simply because I found that my still quite decent eyesight did suffer some at night compared to my younger days. Keep that in mind when reading my preferences.

I came to this forum seeking assistance with assembling a package of lighting suitable to my ultrarunning needs and the wealth of information here and the willing and knowledgeable contributors shortened the process and ultimately led to a far better system than I would have otherwise had. Thanks to all.

(You can see my thread on the topic here: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?427196-Skilhunt-H03-Headlamp-Mods-for-Waist-Light )


I started out seeking ways to build a better waist-light. My aging eyes were better able to read the rocky, root strewn terrain that is mountain single-track when shadows are visible - something headlamps can't do. I built a kick *** dual head version and ran with it in training, only to find that the bounce of the light as simply too annoying and distracting. Couldn't deal. Adding to the negative of a waist-light is the fact that smaller stray branches that often hang out into the trail at eye level weren't illuminated well enough from waist level for me to see before they hit me in the face (and eyes). I could see that even if I were able to deal with the bouncing of the waist-light, I was still going to need to provide some light from a headlamp to be able to see eye level hazards and react to them. I bailed on the waist-light entirely after enough trial and finding mostly error.

I then modified my dual LED light to mount headlamp style. I was hoping that simply pouring enough lumens on to the trail would make up for the flat lighting. I wasn't overwhelmingly pleased with the results. I felt like there were diminishing terrain reading returns weighed against the extra battery requirements. Additionally, extra lumens produced and thrown at eye level actually exacerbate certain negative aspects of headlamps - fog and rain reached a blinding level with my ~1,000 luman dual rig.

I had played previously and continued to run with a variety of hand lamps. I loved the way the lower light angle made the terrain visually pop up in 3D, but again the unsteady nature of the lighting (waving around a lot) was disconcerting. Also, hand-helds have one really nasty negative feature -- at the moment you need them the most (say you've caught a toe on a root and are struggling to regain your balance), your arms naturally wave frantically to help in your recovery and your trail goes dark. I simply couldn't abide by losing my trailing lighting right at the moment I needed it most. Also, eating and drinking on the run (totally necessary in ultrarunning) required movement of the hands such that lighting was lost. 

So much for all the negatives of the different lighting packages -- what did I finally settle on?

I'm using a straight up stock Skilhunt H03 (TIR lens) in headlamp form. I run this on the top sustainable setting for the most part (500 lumens). I supplement this with a Rofis TR20 adjustable angle handheld with a custom built handstrap which makes it so I can't drop it easily. I run the Rofis also on the 500 lumen setting - occasionally cranking it up to the higher setting for route finding.


Here's the positives of the system:

1: Two totally separate lighting systems provide redundancy.
2: Single type battery for both lights
3: Lightweight single battery packaging for both lights, while still providing 3+ hours full bright.
4: Design of both lights allows easy 30 second battery swap even in total darkness or on the run.
5: Skilhunt flood diminishes the perception of beam movement of the hand held Rofis.
6: The more 'throwy' nature of the Rofis overcomes the Skilhunt lumens, still inducing readable shadows.
7: The Rofis throws well for 'look ahead' route finding - not the Skilhunt's strength.
8: The Skilhunt continues to light the trail even when one trips and the Rofis is windmilling about.
9: The adjustable head of the Rofis allows me to pick the perfect, comfortable angle for my wrist.
10: When I encounter fog or rain, I can just switch off the Skilhunt and am all set with a lower angle light
11: Excellent lighting of eye level hazards.

Negatives:

1: The single cell config of both lights leads to only ~3hrs lighting before needing cell changes.
2: Hand held lights occupy hands.
3: The color of the two lights don't match which annoys the hell out of me.


I have now used this system on the run through hundreds of mile of wicked terrain and currently wouldn't trade it for anything (Note that I own multiple high end Petzls and Black Diamonds and Princeton headlamps and have used all of them happily for years backpacking and climbing).

Typically I turn the Rofis off when climbing steeper terrain (sometimes I even tuck it into a velcro pouch located on my running belt). The fact that I'm generally power hiking these stretches means terrain reading becomes much easier - reducing the needed for the shadow producing handheld. Also, I'm usually trying to feed myself during this time and while the hand-strap does allow this with light in hand, if I know from the elevation profile of the route that it will be off for a while, it's just easier to tuck it away and be truly hands free. Depending on the route of course I find I need the Rofis lit about half the time.

When needed I use the Nitecore MB40 battery magazine to carry spares and this gives me over 9 hours of full bright system usage. One could of course ramp down the lumens and go much longer. I have found for me that the weight to lumens trade-off falls easily in favor of lumens. The extra batteries simply aren't that heavy, and for most ultras crew access is such that other than a single emergency spare, you don't need to carry extras at all. It's only the longer more remote versions (which are my first love) that require the added weight.

That's my 0.02 cents. Lighting is like shoes as I see it -- too many variables and personal preferences to nail down one "perfect" combo for everyone. Try things and find what works for you.

As a reference to questions asked in the OP, my running speed on long races is not high (my fastest mile completing the 75 mile SCAR (Smokie Challenge Adventure Race) was only in the 9 minute range. Many technical running miles are completed in the 12+ minute range. I have however run many night training miles with this system down in the 7s and 8s without issue.

Your results may vary.

JB


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## Genzod (Jun 6, 2017)

*Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!*

I imagine when you descended from Davenport Gap Shelter and approached I-40, your radio call went a little something like this:

"Clingman's Tower, ME-056 with you on the localizer four OH right."
"M.E. 056, roger, cleared to land four OH right."
"Cleared to land four OH right, ME-056."






So tell me, were there many UFO calls on the Haywood County, NC 911 log that weekend?

That's a lotta light!

When I do 1 day in the mountains (43 miles with about 3 lbs of food), I'm not pushing the 20 lb limit of my packs, so I won't hesitate to carry extra items I wouldn't otherwise carry on a three day trip. But when I hit that ceiling, luxuries have gotta go, or the ship starts to sink! The compromise I have to make with the extended range load is limiting myself to one or two lamps, raw weight of 30g each, plus batteries and headband (which is what my visor will slide onto). Fortunately, I consider 122-198 range on the ZL H53w to be way more light for my foreground light than I feel I could ever hope for.

I read your warning about redundancy, and I'm definitely going to make a back-up light mandatory. I should know better, having had my former lamp take a deep six on me right when I began my first night trail running last October. Lucky thing I brought that 30 degree bag, although another headlamp would have been 21 oz lighter!

Speaking of lucky, I'm not too far from your age and I can still run streets at night in my neighborhood without needing a lamp. It's dark between the street lamps, but I can adjust pretty well. Haven't fallen yet. I had some fun with sidewalks and driveways in the beginning, however. :laughing: Now I keep to the asphalt at night.

Thanks for sharing your lamps story with us! I was glad to finally see it.


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## stephenk (Jun 8, 2017)

*Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!*



Genzod said:


> How fast do you tend to move on the street with the 70 lumen floody Fenix HL10? Do you tend to aim the center of the beam at any particular distance from your feet?
> 
> Your Fenix has a rotatable diffuser. Do you find that light is more pleasant to run with than with spot bounce generated by a running gait, or does it dim the light too much?


I always aim the beam so that the lower edge of the beam is at my feet for the next foot strike. This usually results in the hotspot being 2-3m away. Running speed is typically 12kph for urban running. 

The Fenix HL10 beam options are very floody and even more floody. The diffuser doesn't make a huge difference, though makes the beam edge and hotspot slightly softer. My preference is diffused, though I'm not that fussy.


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## Genzod (Jun 9, 2017)

*Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!*



stephenk said:


> I always aim the beam so that the lower edge of the beam is at my feet for the next foot strike. This usually results in the hotspot being 2-3m away. Running speed is typically 12kph for urban running.
> 
> The Fenix HL10 beam options are very floody and even more floody. The diffuser doesn't make a huge difference, though makes the beam edge and hotspot slightly softer. My preference is diffused, though I'm not that fussy.



If you don't mind, I'd like to link to your review of the Fenix HL10 and present a quote and a photo from it that I think is great advice to new runners reading this thread:

_"The 70 lumen brightness on high is sufficient for urban night running. 50 lumens is roughly the minimum for urban night running. *If the light is angled so that edge of the beam is around the runners foot, then the path is well illuminated for around 10m ahead of the runner. This is a critical area so that the runner can plan their next few foot strikes. Nothing worse than mistaking a leaf or twig for a cane toad, spider, or snake! The hot spot beam can illuminate up to around 30m ahead of the runner if required.* I should note that much brighter lights may annoy motorists, and thus 70 lumens is a good brightness for urban night running. "

_Beam shots:


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## Genzod (Aug 12, 2017)

*Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!*





I recently purchased a Zebralight H53w for trail running. I tested it out last night for urban running. 

Normally I don't use a headlamp at night for urban running. The streets tend to be well lit with street lamps spaced every 0.05 to 0.10 miles (80-160m). I live in a residential area that tends to be isolated from through-traffic, and I run at a time when most residents are already in bed and not in their cars on the road coming home. Provided I stay on the road and stay off the sidewalk, I'm fine. Get on the sidewalk and surprise, surprise, I'm tripping over driveways, meter access grates and tree root upheavals of concrete when the ambient light dims between street lamps. 

Last night using a setting of 65 lumens (Energizer AA Primary lithium) and a semitransparent medical glove fingertip stretched over the head to provide wide angle diffusion, I was able to successfully run on the sidewalk at a typical speed of about 6 mph (9.65 kph) without mishaps. It was very decent light when I traversed the sidewalk near the duck pond where there are no street lamps, only minuscule ambient light from distant houses.

Removing the diffuser at the duck pond, the 12 degree spot filled the meter wide sidewalk where I tend to keep the light aimed, and I could see the spill focus of 80 degrees to each side which was in my opinion a much better concentration of light for paths the width of sidewalks and mountain trails. The edge of the spot was about 3 and 5 m ahead of me where I tend to look when I run in the dark at that speed (less when slower). The edge of the spill near my feet is about 1 meter ahead of me. I tilt my head down a little when I need to have spill light at my feet.

I'm heading out to try this lamp on the mountain trails very soon. I suspect 65 lumens diffused or spot/spill will be _plenty_ of light for fastpacking with an occasional boost to 122 lumens for really technical stuff and running downhill. Uphill is much slower and I think 26 lm will be good. There will be much less ambient light glare constricting my pupils limiting light, so the light will appear much brighter in that context. Plus, I will be running much slower due to terrain and pack weight, so I will not have to look very far ahead to anticipate obstacles, meaning light intensity on the path will be brighter with closer aim.

The single strap headband doesn't' work well running, bobbying up and down from a running gait. I tried ThinAirDesigns advice and ran the band through the round holes of the lamp holder, and that stabilized the lamp. Unfortunately, the rubber holder became uncomfortable, the edges of it pressed into my forehead, so I think I'll need a sweatband to go underneath to make it work. Reversing a baseball cap and riding the mount on the cloth/velcro adjustment strap works, but the hat itself is uncomfortable in heat while running. Edit: I purchased a UA sweatband, and the light rides on it very comfortably.


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## The_Driver (Aug 13, 2017)

*Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!*

For the past few years I have been using an Armytek Wizard Pro with XM-L2 S6 3000K 90CRI, mostly in the second highest mode (370lm). 


At night I usually don't run faster than 5min/km (8:03/mi)
I look straight ahead as much as possible so that my running form doesn't deteriorate (maybe 10-50m)
I mostly run on paved roads, trails and sometimes normals paths in the woods. Nothing crazy.
The Armytek Wizard has a TIR optic with a built-in hexagonal diffusor. Together with the XM-L2 LED it produces an almost perfect beam for running. There is no bouncing spot (although this also depends on how good your running technique is, i.e. how high your cadence is) and the the range is good enough.
When it's raining I use the turbo mode with 630 Lumens.
The amount of light is great, it's easily enough.
Fog is ok, but snow is not so nice because the snow flakes basically got towards my eyes the whole time which is annoying.

The only thing I want to improve is the tint. I think the 3000k is a bit too low for my taste. I find that it is easier to concentrate with a higher color temperature. I am thinking of having the light modded with an XP-L2 4000K 90CRI. 

The one thing that really annoys me and is really quite dangerous is the low battery warning. The main LEDs actually blinks multiple times to tell you this. When you are running downhill in the dark that is quite dangerous. In the winter (around 0°C) the light and the battery are much colder. This causes the low battery warning to start much earlier because cold batteries have a lower voltage. Using unprotected cells with a low internal resistance fixes this problem though.


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## Genzod (Aug 13, 2017)

*Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!*



The_Driver said:


> For the past few years I have been using an Armytek Wizard Pro with XM-L2 S6 3000K 90CRI...The one thing that really annoys me and is really quite dangerous is the low battery warning. The main LEDs actually blinks multiple times to tell you this. When you are running downhill in the dark that is quite dangerous. In the winter (around 0°C) the light and the battery are much colder. This causes the low battery warning to start much earlier because cold batteries have a lower voltage. Using unprotected cells with a low internal resistance fixes this problem though.



We recently purchased a Wizard XPH50, and it seems the yellow switch blinks red or green depending on the message. I wasn't aware the main LED might blink when battery is low. Is that still the case with recent models?


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## The_Driver (Aug 14, 2017)

*Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!*

I have the Wizard v1. Armytek likes to change things...
I would check the Manual and maybe just try it out before running (you can use your fridge to make the warnings come earlier).


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## Genzod (Aug 14, 2017)

*Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!*



The_Driver said:


> I have Wizard v1. Armytek likes to change things...
> I would check the Manual and maybe just try it out before running (you can use your fridge to make the warnings come earlier).



I think we have an XHP50 Wizard v2. Manual only indicates battery level warnings are provided at 100, 25 and 10% by different colors of flashing light from the switch. Nothing about the LED flashing. My Zebralight uses the LED to flash battery level indication, but I have to activate that test by a sequence of 4 short clicks before it does that. I suspect it regulates output until first stepdown before it eventually and completely shuts down.


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## Rekkie (Aug 19, 2017)

*Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers &amp; Urban Runners, What Lamps Do You Use?*

I usually alternate between my Petzl Tikka RXP and my Nitecore HC30. I tend to use the Petzl for most of my urban running and the HC30 for trails. Both weigh about the same. All depends on how far/long I intend to run. Both have ~200 Lumen modes which In my opinion is more then enough light for both urban and trail. Although I only use the Petzl Autonomy modes on trails as it doesn't do well when an oncoming car's lights shine towards it.

But the HC30's silicone holder is extremely uncomfortable and it bobs a lot on my head. I DIY'd the HC30's bracket/holder onto the Petxl band with zip ties for a 100Miler earlier this year to try and get the best of both worlds...I wanted the battery life and lumens of the HC30 but the comfort of the Petzl. Worked fantastic and I only used one battery for the entire night, alternating between the 210 / 70 lumen modes depending on my pace and terrain, although it wasn't the prettiest setup.


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## regulator (Aug 20, 2017)

*Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers &amp; Urban Runners, What Lamps Do You Use?*

The new Olight H2S seems like it meets many requirements.


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## Genzod (Sep 12, 2017)

*Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers &amp; Urban Runners, What Lamps Do You Use?*

Results of August trail running:

After my trip from The Smokey Mountains where I viewed the eclipse, I traveled north to Virginia to camp and do some trail running. My section on the AT was from Hog Camp Gap to near the top of Chimney Rock in Three Ridges, then back. Total distance was about 47 miles--just under 16 hours total of running, about 7 hours at night. 

My weight was about 190 lbs stripped (could still stand to lose 25-30 lbs), about 3 lbs of worn dress and gear and 18 lbs in pack (including 3-1/2 lbs of food and 4 lbs of water). My averaged speed in the section was 3 mph, not counting about 4 hours of zero forward progress time and 4 hours of sleep. Based on elevation change only, I consider this section to be above average in difficulty for the AT. There are more technical sections in Maine and NH that have a lot of rock hopping and persistent roots that are especially perilous when wet. I encountered no rain or trail wetness, and the only rock hopping I encountered was during the day.

Using my H53w, I found the 65 lumen setting to be more than adequate and I used it most of the time. Going uphill, I could stand to drop it to 30 lumens. I did not need a higher setting going downhill, although I didn't really encounter the steepest sections during the night. If I did I was anticipating using 122 lm for that. If I were just hiking (walking), I think the 30 lumen setting would have been plenty.

I did have a few rock kicks that came close to falls. I have those every now and then, but I think it is more of a function of letting my mind drift than not enough light. If I were to do a serious run where I strung several of these days together, I think I would ensure my footing with a step up in intensity, that is, use 122 lm for most running, instead of 65 lm. 

Many people don't like to use spot/spill while trail running because of spot bounce. I wasn't annoyed by this, as I prefer to have a zone of higher intensity in the narrow trail corridor. The spill up close has such short range, it's about as bright as the spot 3-5m ahead of me. The spill to the sides only lights up the forest and is sufficient light to warn me of sudden surprises from Freddy Kruger or Big Foot. On a wider open area like urban running on a road, I like to fit the finger of a semi-transparent sterile glove over the lamp to diffuse the light.

The beauty of the Zebralight H53w is its programmable range of settings. I was comfortable most of the time with the options of 122/65/30 lumens (down/flat/up). If I need more light due to improvement in performance or just a need for insurance, I can choose 197/122/65. Although I probably wouldn't require it, I could even go to 275/197/122 or 330/275/197, if I really wanted to see a spike in Energizer stock (CEO Alan Hoskins could buy himself a new yacht.). That's why I selected this lamp. With stabilization and seating improvement techniques discussed previously, it's so lightweight and comfortable, I hardly notice it's on my head except for the light coming from it.

I had to replace a battery at one point early in the run. Not wanting to dig around for the replacement (I apparently moved it to a "better" location while packing) I ran with the back up lamp for a while, a Manker/BLF/Astrolux S1 cool white in 18350 configuration (no spring bypass--10,600 cd, 1400lm max). I chose a setting comparable to 65 lm on the ZL. The cool white tint was 6500K. Compared to the ZLH53w's 4500K, the tint difference was night and day. Contrasted, I liked the calming effect of the 4500K light better with improved color rendering of browns and greens. By itself though, it was hard for me to discern tint differences being that I'm an "amateur" when it comes to light. The ZLH53w just seemed like good, white light, perfect for forest colors.


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## xcandrew (Sep 22, 2017)

In the winter, sunset can be 3-4 pm here, so most runs are night. Therefore, getting by with a low output solution doesn't make sense. I also don't want a different light for skiing vs. running vs. cycling, though I mostly ski and run in the winter. Bike and skiing headlamps, as well as orienteering headlamps (same as cross country skiing lights) are very well developed and useful, unlike the headlamps marketed to American runners. There are also low cost bike lights that aren't anemic, so that's what I'm using now.

I started doing night trail runs in the '90s in CA. If running in neighborhoods, multiuse paths, roads, no light was needed to see, but trails were another thing. There was a 12 mile loop that I often ran that was about 7-8 miles on trails. Most of the time, I would just go without a light. This would sometimes be totally fine when the ambient light was sufficient. For example overcast conditions would create a kind of glow even under the oak trees from light refracted from moonlight, distant city streetlights, and stars. Other times, such as with strong direct moonlight, or just very dark wet conditions, I wouldn't be able to see the ground at all under the trees, and it would feel like a black hole under the trees. I'd have to slow down from my daytime pace, but I enjoyed doing it for the adventure aspect. Animals active at night, like deer, mountain lions, bobcats, coyote, fox, squirrels, wild turkey, wild boar made it even more of an adventure. The headlamps that I sometimes used in the '90s were close to useless, except to help me see the ground under the trees, still at an inching-along pace. These headlamps included the Princeton Tec Solo, a 2AA halogen with very low lumens, and then a Princeton Tec Aurora, a 3 Nichia? LED headlamp with maybe 10-20 lumens.

When I joined this forum, I think my first post here was a review of the Princeton Tec EOS, which had just come out and would later be a favorite for modifications. I think it was around 30 lumens stock initially. That made it much more useful that the Aurora, but the beam was too narrow, and it was still too dim. I eventually modified it with a Seoul P4 emitter upgrade, and a Mc-18(?something like that?) reflector swap that made it the first headlamp that I had that was actually functional for running at night on trails. I think it put out about 100 lumens after the modification, and the beam was finally wide enough that I could point the hotspot up the trail while still being able to use the spill to see in front of my feet, as well as the side peripheries. I also added a homebrew external pack, so I could use it on the high setting continuously because the lower levels were useless for running. So I'd say that about 100 lumens is the minimum that I'd find useful for running, and that's only with a good optic or reflector that provides a good mix of spill and distance at the same time. Running pace would be reduced from daylight running pace. Maybe 7-11 minutes per mile on trails in dry conditions or packed snow (in AK by then).

Rain and wet ground makes things really, really dark. 100 lumens gets mostly absorbed, little gets reflected back, and it might only be bright enough for walking pace some nights on rooty trails. Sometimes even 1200 lumens in those light-sucking situations is just enough for running. You might have experienced similar situations while driving two lane road in middle of nowhere in the rain with faded lines, where you can barely see the road. When snow arrives, everything is much improved at night, and is much welcomed after a dark fall. Not all snow is equal though. Sometimes it's no more reflective than dry ground, but it's better than wet ground.

I have since used a succession of bike lights for running since the first Magicshine MJ-808 ("900 lumens", really about 600 lumens initially) maybe about 10 years ago, which was a copy of the Lupine Tesla. This was followed by the Gemini Lights Xera (about 800 lumens? initially, single emitter), Gemini Duo 1500 (dual emitter, 1200+ Lumens actual), and now a cheap copy of the Duo, the Yinding 900 (actual 1200 lumens). I have mostly used 2x18650 packs with my bike headlamps, with a burn time on high about 1-1.5 hours. Since most of my runs or skis are about 1.5-2.5 hours, I tend to use the medium setting most of the time to make sure I don't run out of battery life before I'm done.

On the Yinding, medium is about 600 lumens. Pace varies a lot depending on the trail and what I'm doing, but I'd only drop to low (maybe 300 lumens) if I'm walking or running up a ridge/mountain at night, or anticipate a long outing and don't want to run out of battery life. One purpose of having sufficient light is to not have a difference between my nighttime pace compared to my daytime pace. I have a lot of Strava course records for downhills that I actually have run at night. Paces for some of those nighttime efforts include about 4:47 pace per mile average for 2+ miles down a trail with 1200 lumens blazing. I sometimes top out close to 4:00 pace (15 mph) on parts of those downhills.

Mountain bikers typically run one light on the handlebars and one light on the helmet, each with 800-1500 lumens max or more. A strong runner on trails is really not much different than a mountain biker. I think I read that typical local cross country mountain bike races, semi-technical and with ups and downs are won at 9-11 mph (daytime). I also run 10+ mph in the local trail races that are held on the same trails. When a mountain biker is riding uphill as slowly as a typical runner, they might turn down their lights, but they don't turn their lights down to 100 lumens for good reason. Their lights vary, but have a good broad spread for at least one of their lights to make sure it's not tunnel vision. My Yinding has a very broad spread of light with a good center weighting ( https://youtu.be/RKj0zs9IbdY ). 300 or 600 lumens, when spread out, isn't overpowering. And when compared to 100 lumens, you just see better. You see the roots, ruts, rocks on the ground. You don't have tunnel vision. And, importantly here, you see the eyeshine of the moose and bears in the woods (or neighborhood here) before you run into them, even if you aren't going fast.

Other conditions: In a blizzard with really blowing snow, I've found that the more lumens the better. I've been in a blizzard where 1200 lumens was just enough (and wanted more), while 600 and 300 were too low.

In Europe, especially Scandinavia, where it's as dark as it is here in the winter, and where orienteering is popular, they have the right idea with their orienteering/skiing headlamps. There, runners racing through the woods at night use headlamps like the LEDX Cobra with 6500 lumens - no one there thinking 100 lumens is enough for running in the woods. Here's my thread from last winter: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?429338-Headlamp-Porn-(Night-Orienteering)


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## PartyPete (Sep 23, 2017)

I use a Fenix HL10 2016 for my once or twice a week morning runs, as well as general use and power outages. I like the convenience of using a single AAA as well as that it's comfortable and lightweight; it weighs about 2 oz total. 

I'm sure there's brighter and longer running lamps out there but I rarely use it more than 45 minutes at a time and really dislike large bulky contraptions on my head. So this works well for me. Despite being rated at 70 lumens it looks closer to 100 to me and is plenty bright for my humble needs. It's a cooler tint but never bothered me in rain or fog. 

In the future I may look into something more potent, or conversely something as bright and smaller if possible but for now it works.


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## mickb (Sep 29, 2017)

*Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!*

Fenix HL-23 on medium most of the time, which is about 50LM.


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## mountainwalker (Oct 8, 2017)

*Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!*

Looking forward to reading this thread, very timely after my old headlamp was badly damaged and needs replacing. For walking on familiar smooth ground or trails, 60 lumen range is fine, and for less familiar trails or rougher trails with lots of rocks and roots, +120 lumen range. I know some walkers who suggest using 2 lights, one headlamp and one at waist level. I prefer to stick with one headlamp. 

Just posted a similar discussion from the standpoint of backpacking first, then trail running. Amazed by how LED tech has progressed. The current runtimes and lumens available for single AA and 18650 are amazing.

Looking at both AA models and 18650 models. For AA, been looking at the Zebralight H53W, Armytek Tiara A1 V2 XP-L and Thrunite TH20 and still collecting suggestions. For AA I'm leaning toward the H53W. 

For 18650 still collecting suggestions. Prefer neutral white over cold-blue white. Like beam with both flood and some spot for distance. Leaning toward the H600w Mk III XHP35 Neutral White. 

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...Other-14500-AA-or-18650&p=5139382#post5139382


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## Labrador72 (Oct 8, 2017)

*Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers &amp; Urban Runners, What Lamps Do You Use?*

Fenix HL55! Own two and use them both for mountain hiking, running and ultra races !

Generally use 165 lumens, at least on easy trails or even technical climbs! For fast downhills or technical terrain normally jump up to 420 lumens! 

Sometimes use only 50 if on a moonlit night or moving next to several other hikers or runners on easy terrain!

Always also carry a PD31 to have some throw and be able to check out landscape features further away!


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## mountainwalker (Nov 5, 2017)

*Center Hotspot+Flood or Flood? Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers &amp; Urban Runners*

Up to now I've always used headlamps that have a center hotspot + peripheral flood, for a combination of punch in the center for distance and flood for peripheral vision, as I found earlier floody lamps didn't offer enough distance illumination (this was years ago). I prefer warmer neutral tints to cold blue white. I'm about to pick up some new headlamps and beam pattern is the last feature I'm considering on the list. To continue my typical beam pattern up to now I was looking at the Zebralight H53W and H600W headlamps.

For backpacking (not running) do you prefer a Floody beam or Center Hotspot + Flood beam? 

For backpacking, I typically use headlamps on very low settings in camp, and occasionally use higher settings for when hiking has been extended into late hours to reach a better camp spot, or when starting out in the dark of the middle of the night. Otherwise I don't typically plan to cover long stretches of trail in the dark over many hours. 

For night hiking and trail running, do you prefer a Floody beam or Center Hotspot + Flood beam? 

For hiking and trail running, I use my headlamp on medium-high settings when hikes or runs finish in dark hours especially in winter. Typically this is on local trails I know well and generally this is between 30 min to an hour and only sometimes a bit longer.


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## Genzod (Dec 15, 2017)

*Re: Center Hotspot+Flood or Flood?*



mountainwalker said:


> headlamps.
> 
> For backpacking (not running) do you prefer a Floody beam or Center Hotspot + Flood beam?



I like more light concentrated in the trail, and less spill to see the bear planning to have me for dinner. 30-ish lumens is plenty for walking (for me), as I only need 9lm minimum for walking in forest in that configuration. I considered it the economical end of what I needed for walking. After regulation in the lamp ceased, the intensity dropped off quickly requiring battery replacement almost soon after.

But I have 8.5mm dark adapted pupils (human range varies from 4-9mm), and that's not typical for my age. A wider dark adapted pupil allows more light in the eye, and thus sees better in the dark.

Have your optometrist measure it, or use a camera (pre-flash off), ruler under eye, dark room (not greater than 1 lux intensity at your eye) and MS Paint utilizing the line function (has digital measuring on lower border of window) to measure yours. 

You can compare my level of economical light to your eye with this equation :
L=9 lm *(8.5mm/Diameterpupil​)^2​
At the time that I used 9 lm for night hiking (Princeton Tech Quad) 20 lm medium setting was more than enough for me. I considered that luxury walking light. But my lamp would burn out 3.5x faster in medium, so i used the economical low setting.

If you have 6mm dark adapted pupils, you might find you need 18 lm for economical walking light and 36 lm for luxury walking light.

Tasking (cooking, fetching water and reading) is best served with and even spread of flood light. I use 3M invisible tape over my spot/spill H53w Zebralight headlamp for that. EDIT: Oops, I used to apply tape. Since then, I've learned the finger tip of a semitransparent medical glove made of vinyl works best.

*I should bring up that dark adapted pupil size is probably the biggest factor affecting why there is so much variance among people for their preference in output. 

*If I'm fine using 65 lm with a spot spill configuration for running, a person who has the same constraints for illumination as I, who has a 6mm dark adapted pupil (about average for someone in his mid-50s) would want 130 lm (in the same lamp) to see with the _same_ intensity.


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## Loverofthelight (Dec 22, 2017)

*Re: Trail Runners, Fastpackers and Urban Runners please share!*

For general urban running about 100 lumens is fairly enough. 
While trail running, I choose about 200 lumens.
I prefer spot- and floodlight headlamp. I am waiting for someone who can share their experience on Fenix ECO headlamps.:naughty:


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