HDS Systems question

[archimedes]

NBP tested this in 2014 and got 140 hours from a CR123A. That is where I got the numbers in my database. But he tested a clicky and maybe the rotaries have higher background drain.

Yes, I believe that it has been previously posted several times that the rotary has substantially higher overhead current.

In fact, I think it has also been noted that the modern "ACME" - era clickies even have higher overhead than the vintage "legacy" - era clickies ....

 

[Hogokansatsukan]

Yes, I believe that it has been previously posted several times that the rotary has substantially higher overhead current.

In fact, I think it has also been noted that the modern "ACME" - era clickies even have higher overhead than the vintage "legacy" - era clickies ....

Rotary and Clicky should be the same. The difference is in the Legacy lights and the current lights. The current HDS lights use more juice.

 

[jon_slider]

85/120P (ramping level 5, 15,18, 22) (lumens 0.33-11-30-120)
https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1245697/Novatac-85p.html?page=3#manual

140/170 (ramping level 5-16-19-23) (lumens 0.28-13-35-120)
https://www.hdssystems.com/Products/Legacy/Clicky/Clicky2UsersGuide.pdf

250 executive ramping level 8-16-20-24) (lumens 0.35-9.4-48.5-250)
https://www.hdssystems.com/Products/Executive/

update, here is the most up to date info I have on factory defaults:

note re 140 model, Lithium reports it is set to level 20, not 19,

my 140 executive came from factory with B as level 16, C level 20, A 24 and D...I'm not sure and don't want to do a factory reset right now!)

summary of Factory presets:

 

[archimedes]

Rotary and Clicky should be the same. The difference is in the Legacy lights and the current lights. The current HDS lights use more juice.

Interesting ... has that been actually tested ?

 

[Hogokansatsukan]

Interesting ... has that been actually tested ?

Yep. At HDS.

 

[jon_slider]

There seem to be 4? generations of handheld Legacy lights... EDC Ultimate and Basic, Novatac 85 and 120, Ra/EDC Classic and Twisty and Clicky, EDC Clicky and Tactical and Rotary

EDC Ultimate has longer runtimes on low, than Novatac:

NovaTacTM 85P, 120P and variants
4) much shorter runtimes on the low settings than the EDC Ultimate

I think it has also been noted that the modern "ACME" - era clickies even have higher overhead than the vintage "legacy" - era clickies ....

I dont know, maybe the ACME generation is better than the Novatac generation?

fwiw, I just had another impulse, and bought an SPL-120 so I can experience the ramping.....
I have not considered runtime much, since I use LiIon and mostly less than 30 lumens.

 

[archimedes]

I guess I was remembering this post ...

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...stems-EDC-19&p=4918750&viewfull=1#post4918750

But, as you state ...

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...y-and-Clicky&p=3786016&viewfull=1#post3786016

... although "essentially the same" perhaps =/= "exactly the same"

 

[reppans]

I guess I was remembering this post ...

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...stems-EDC-19&p=4918750&viewfull=1#post4918750

But, as you state ...

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...y-and-Clicky&p=3786016&viewfull=1#post3786016

... although "essentially the same" perhaps =/= "exactly the same"

My comment (the first link) was based on other folks tests of the legacy 0.08 min lights... if you look down to post #16 of your second link, you'll find the link to Gearmonky's current tests that I used/referred, but unfortunately the link to the results/spreadsheet is now broken. However, the next post (#17) Hondo came to the same conclusion as I and said:

... But based on gearmonkey's measurements, if you were to do a run time on 0.08 lumens with the rotary, it would then become a significant difference relative to the clicky. Unfortunately, I only have a high CRI clicky and older HDS lights, no rotary yet, so I can't try it...

However, I thought I saw 3 more recent runtime tests of the ACME 0.02min lights here with CR123s and all came in ~140hrs, and I thought one was a rotary.

 

[Lithium466]

In thread #18, Henry commented that the rotary tail itself consumes a slight amount of current, so theoretically (current gen) Rotaries have more overhead than the Clickies. Shouldn't make a sensible difference IRL.

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...stems-EDC-18&p=4561717&highlight=#post4561717

The off current, what I think you are referring to as "parasitic drain", is very low - typically 6uA. Using 1400mAh (@20mA), that is roughly 26 years to drain the battery. But since the shelf life of the battery is only 10 years, I think it is fair to say there is no significant impact on battery life.

The Clicky switching circuit pulls no power when the switch is up - because it is an open circuit. Any theoretical leakage (pico-amps) has already been accounted for in the off current. Disconnecting the switch circuit will provide no significant benefit.

The Rotary switch is fully digital. Like the main light, it consumes single-digit microamps when not doing anything. Since the switch is entirely digital, checking the switch is quick and consumes very little power - more single-digit microamps. So again I submit it is fair to say there is no significant impact on battery life.

For those interested in emergency kits, standard rules apply. Test and rotate. You should test your emergency gear at least once a year. You should rotate your primary lithium battery stock at least once every 3 years. If you do that then there is no reason not to leave the batteries in the flashlight.

Henry.

In my (limited) experience, clickies with 0,08lm low vs 0,02lm low have similar runtime at the lowest level. Haven't compared to Novatac vs EDC Basic/Ultimate (I don't have legacy lights to compare), but it will be interesting to do, and I will test and report.

Is there a "rotary style" flashlight that doesn't have a "big" circuit overhead, which leads to average runtime on low modes ? I hae a Sunwayman V11R in the past, and remember average runtime on low. The runtime of the HDS is perfectly acceptable for what I do with them. Some manufacturers like Zebralight promise very long runtime in low mode, has that been tested in real life ? Just asking, some brands are less honest than others, and even without implying honesty, there's a sample variability in the equation.

 

[Cerealand]

I don't think the pass around has a HCRI led.

 

[Lithium466]

Nope, regular XP-G cool white, the passaround light used to be an "old" 200 XP-G reprogrammed to newest firmware.

 

[jon_slider]

I don't think the pass around has a HCRI led.

true, Hogo informed me likewise
most Old (school) HDS did not prioritize High CRI the way the recent group buys have.

Each time I buy and test a Low CRI light, I end up going back to one of my Nichia modified lights. I think it is wonderful that Hogo has created so many High CRI options. I almost bought a TiRotary with sw45, but I had trouble opening my wallet, so I did not go through with the order.. and instead ended up buying an inexpensive Novatac to try as my first programmable light.

the SPL-120 I ordered will also not be High CRI.. I want to give Low CRI the opportunity to show me what it is good for. I keep telling myself that color rendering is not everything... but I dont always agree with myself.

 

[emarkd]

Some manufacturers like Zebralight promise very long runtime in low mode, has that been tested in real life ? Just asking, some brands are less honest than others, and even without implying honesty, there's a sample variability in the equation.

Yes, and it was found that if anything, zebra is being very cautious with their quoted runtimes. The results I've seen showed almost twice what zebra quoted -- 6 months was actually nearly a year. They use a very different driver architecture than HDS though, its definitely not an apples-to-apples comparison.

 

[maukka]

Isn't that atrociously bad on the lower levels? Like 50 lm/W at 27 lumens assuming a 2.3 Wh battery (4.5 h * 27 lm / 2.3 Wh = 53 lm/W). And gets even worse the lower you go?

The 90 lumen level seems fine for a high CRI emitter though.

I was pleasantly surprised that the efficiency was better than this. I measured 70 lm/W at level 18 (~16.8 lumens on average). I haven't verified the actual watt-hour capacity of the battery yet so the lm/W number is just an estimate.

 

[maukka]

Verified the battery capacity at 2.15 Wh at a low discharge rate of 60 mA which corresponds well to the 9 hour runtime test at level 18. Also tested level 19, which improves the efficiency a bit

Also, my HDS seems to be overclocked since it does 230 lumens on max output. On a different battery sample with higher capacity at higher discharge currents. Calculations adjusted for that.

 

[reppans]

In my (limited) experience, clickies with 0,08lm low vs 0,02lm low have similar runtime at the lowest level. Haven't compared to Novatac vs EDC Basic/Ultimate (I don't have legacy lights to compare), but it will be interesting to do, and I will test and report.

Is there a "rotary style" flashlight that doesn't have a "big" circuit overhead, which leads to average runtime on low modes ? I hae a Sunwayman V11R in the past, and remember average runtime on low. The runtime of the HDS is perfectly acceptable for what I do with them. Some manufacturers like Zebralight promise very long runtime in low mode, has that been tested in real life ? Just asking, some brands are less honest than others, and even without implying honesty, there's a sample variability in the equation.

-It does seem there were some 0.08lm lights with the newer less efficient driver.. THIS is the thread with ~140hrs runtime tests, as well as couple ~500hrs legacy runtime tests. So maybe the driver switch was when ACME threads where introduced.... not the 0.08>0.02 switch (although close).

-My V11R consumes 13.4ma @3.8V at min (much dimmer than HDS 0.02), which on a 16340, is not far from what SWM specs as max runtime (40hrs?). In comparison my Quark QK2A consumes 12.24ma at 3lms and 3.65ma at 0.5lms on the same batt.... or less power at 3lms, than the V11R at barely visible. The HDS does not use a magnetic ring, so is going to be a more efficient rotary. For most folks using medium or higher outputs, the fixed driver overhead tends to be small/immaterial/imperceptible in relation to LED consumption. But for the night vision enthusiast like me that splits his time between moonlight and low lows, where inefficient drivers consume more power than the LED itself, the runtime difference can be a factor of 2-3x.

- Yes, Zebralight fibs quite a bit, particularly at the low lows. THIS is a 4 sample runtime test of the SC52s moonlight mode spec'd at 0.34lms and 500hrs. One sample did get to 500 hrs, the other 3 averaged 60-something% of the runtime, and we all think the output spec of 0.34 was significantly overstated. I read 0.07-0.08 lms on my sample and included pix showing it closer to the HDS's 0.02 mode, than its peer group of 0.3-0.5lm moonlight modes. Basically ZL lumen-hours spec was overstated by multiples (>6x on my sample). Also, if you look at my link above to the Barbarin laboratory equipment test, you can triangulate to ZL output exaggeration as well. (That said, to be fair, and on average, I do think is ZL is one of the most efficient manufacturers out there, certainly better than most....but just not as good as they say they are).

 

[desert.snake]

There is one interesting point, when I checked the operation time with my HDS 140 lm, it turned out that when the flashlight almost stopped burning, the voltage on the cell did not go down below 2.75 volts (built-in battery protection). It is very interesting to know how much volt is left here when the test is over?

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/v...-in-your-HDS&p=5259565&viewfull=1#post5259565

 

[Lithium466]

-It does seem there were some 0.08lm lights with the newer less efficient driver.. THIS is the thread with ~140hrs runtime tests, as well as couple ~500hrs legacy runtime tests. So maybe the driver switch was when ACME threads where introduced.... not the 0.08>0.02 switch (although close).

Indeed, the new driver was introduced with ACME models, to accommodate the rotary control part, even on non rotary lights. The low was reduced something like 4 years later, but the overhead on the driver makes that 0,02lm consumes almost as much power as 0,08lm...what's used to drive the led being insignificant compared to what the driver component take.

Edit : new driver came with firmware 2.0 in 2010/2011, lower low introduced end of 2013 with firmware 2.10 (haven't checked on HDS website, this is from memory). Also 40s burst compared to 10s on the old "more efficient" driver

 

[maukka]

Just tested the standby drain with locator on. It'll take about 3.5 months to drain a 600mAh 16340.

Minimum level will work for 76 hours, which is pretty bad. The MCU doesn't seem to sleep at all when the light is on.

 

[Lithium466]

How does that compare with the "infinitely" variable magnetic controled lights, like a Jetbeam RRT01 ? These have a pretty large driver overhead too.
Maybe the MCU isn't switched to standby mode because of the rotary control? Like constantly checking the rotary knob position ?