10440 LiIon in lights not rated for LiIon, pros and cons?

[jon_slider]

a light that doesn't support lithium will likely not have built in voltage protection it could be hazardous to over discharge the battery

thanks for the orientation and warning about potential hazards
Do you also use special precautions when charging a LiIon? (Ive seen some info that suggests the charging station needs to be protected from potential fires during a charging cycle)

the idea of using lower levels, and just using the high mode for less than a minute at a time are also helpful.

from where I sit, one disadvantage of LiIon in a Tool is the loss of a low near 1 lumen, which I sometimes want.

Regarding comments about the SC5, that light is not LiIon compatible, its driver is rated iirc for 2 volts max. Previous Zebras were able to use LiIon. It seems Zebralight has opted not to support LiIon chemistry in the latest version of their single AAA light. FWIW, the SC5 is basically a 200 lumen light on high, the claimed higher outputs have automatic step downs after iirc 3 minutes.

imo an AAA light maxes out at about 100 lumens if ~30+ minutes runtime is desired to 50% discharge
similarly, the AA lights max out at about 200 lumens, if a 30 minute+ runtime is desired to 50% discharge

I can see how a LiIon in a Tool could produce close to 100 lumens on medium, which I suppose would have similar runtime to an AAA on high.

If I wanted a 500 lumen burst, I can see how a 10440 light could be useful. For people interested in doing that with controlled risk, I recommend the ToolVN, since the DriverVN is compatible with 10440 (only), and has a wide range of mode options, plus it is intended to be used with protected cells, thereby eliminating the overdischarge risk.

And to define the overdischarge risk, I believe the concern is that the LiIon can catch fire. Ive witnessed a LiIon battery on fire. There was no way I could extinguish it with the tools I had at hand, a Shovel and dirt.. We had to dig a hole, which we lined with rocks, and then buried. The situation was a crashed model airplane (not mine), that had started a fire in Big Sur. The fire spread rapidly, but we were able to contain it before it got out of control. A LiIon fire is nothing to take lightly imo.

Also, it could be extremely hazardous for a child, if they were to get a hold of a LiIon Tool, it got hot enough for them to drop it, and continued to discharge until ignition. I dont recommend unprotected LiIon for households with young children..

Much respect to those of you who have learned to use LiIon safely in unprotected lights. I think I will stay with Eneloops for the time being.

 

[rdnesh69]

thanks for the orientation and warning about potential hazards
Do you also use special precautions when charging a LiIon? (Ive seen some info that suggests the charging station needs to be protected from potential fires during a charging cycle)

the idea of using lower levels, and just using the high mode for less than a minute at a time are also helpful.

from where I sit, one disadvantage of LiIon in a Tool is the loss of a low near 1 lumen, which I sometimes want.

Regarding comments about the SC5, that light is not LiIon compatible, its driver is rated iirc for 2 volts max. Previous Zebras were able to use LiIon. It seems Zebralight has opted not to support LiIon chemistry in the latest version of their single AAA light. FWIW, the SC5 is basically a 200 lumen light on high, the claimed higher outputs have automatic step downs after iirc 3 minutes.

imo an AAA light maxes out at about 100 lumens if ~30+ minutes runtime is desired to 50% discharge
similarly, the AA lights max out at about 200 lumens, if a 30 minute+ runtime is desired to 50% discharge

I can see how a LiIon in a Tool could produce close to 100 lumens on medium, which I suppose would have similar runtime to an AAA on high.

If I wanted a 500 lumen burst, I can see how a 10440 light could be useful. For people interested in doing that with controlled risk, I recommend the ToolVN, since the DriverVN is compatible with 10440 (only), and has a wide range of mode options, plus it is intended to be used with protected cells, thereby eliminating the overdischarge risk.

And to define the overdischarge risk, I believe the concern is that the LiIon can catch fire. Ive witnessed a LiIon battery on fire. There was no way I could extinguish it with the tools I had at hand, a Shovel and dirt.. We had to dig a hole, which we lined with rocks, and then buried. The situation was a crashed model airplane (not mine), that had started a fire in Big Sur. The fire spread rapidly, but we were able to contain it before it got out of control. A LiIon fire is nothing to take lightly imo.

Also, it could be extremely hazardous for a child, if they were to get a hold of a LiIon Tool, it got hot enough for them to drop it, and continued to discharge until ignition. I dont recommend unprotected LiIon for households with young children..

Much respect to those of you who have learned to use LiIon safely in unprotected lights. I think I will stay with Eneloops for the time being.

This is perfect, and yes your charging station should always be well ventilated and free of flammable materials. I also agree that it is a bit of a compromise losing the moonlight mode. I do have some lights that have maintained there low though.

 

[127.0.0.1]

HA


I run a 10440 IMR in my fenix ld01 and will do it as long as I want....forever

no drawbacks

 

[write2dgray]

Jon, I do miss moonlight modes and I'd definitely recommend using protected 10440s or IMR type until you have some experience.

I've seen (and intentionally started) quite a few lipo fires (from prismatic RC lipo type cells), they are a totally different animal than small cylindrical cells.

I have hundreds of lithium cells and small children in the house. It's not all hellfire and brimstone . Do you have some personal agenda here or just an abundance of warnings/caution?

 

[Timothybil]

Another factor in thinking about using 10440 cells is charging them. They have such a small capacity that charging them in most chargers can actually shorten their life. The rule of thumb is to not charge a cell at more than 1C, where C is the capacity of the cell. In the case of 10440 cells, that would be around 350-400 mAh. Most chargers default to 0.5A or 1.0A charging rates, which would be too much for a 10440 cell. I found this out after I had already obtained my Xtar VC4, so I ordered an XP2 as well, since it offers lower charging rates that are acceptable for charging 10440 cells. [It will also charge LiFePO4 cells and 4.35v cells, so that is a bonus too]

 

[jon_slider]

Jon, I do miss moonlight modes and I'd definitely recommend using protected 10440s or IMR type until you have some experience.

I've seen (and intentionally started) quite a few lipo fires (from prismatic RC lipo type cells), they are a totally different animal than small cylindrical cells.

I have hundreds of lithium cells and small children in the house. It's not all hellfire and brimstone . Do you have some personal agenda here or just an abundance of warnings/caution?

Super helpful thanks!

Agenda?
I don't sell anything
I did start the thread thinking judgmentally against people that ask whether LiIon works in a 1.5 volt light.

then you answered courteously, and helped me focus on the topic, and avoid judging peoples choices, especially when I don't understand their priorities. I changed the title to be more unbiased.

now I realize many people use 10440 in 1.5 volt lights, and Im genuinely curious about trying it. Especially as you suggested with a Protected Cell. That pretty much made all the difference in my thinking, or rather, fear factor.

Im new, I like to learn how things fit together, why some people want 10440, what the risks really are, what its good for, even what I may be missing.

My children are grown, I spend too much time online. And I respect that just as we keep knives where children don't hurt themselves, the same can be done by a responsible parent with 10440 lights, or whatever

I have a ReyLight Copper Tool with Nichia. Its painfully dim looking at something under the hood of a car during the day, but Im a tint snob and don't want to use the brighter XPG2.. It might be interesting to turn the Nichia Tool into a pocket rocket, even if it fries the boost circuit.. I have more than one

so, thank you and everyone posting. I appreciate the very courteous exchange, it has definitely expanded my horizons from just say no, to maybe yes, safely.

The comment that really turned the conversation for me, was "Protected IMR10440"

I have been wanting something brighter than AAA, considered the SC5 until I learned it uses PWM, (another of my biases).. I think you guys may be about to cost me money on charger and new battery chemistry.. feel free to suggest what charger and cells to buy for an entry level newbie with several Copper Maratacs, Copper Tools, and Copper Worm

also, would you suggest IMR in a clicky or a twisty.. Im leaning clicky from the armchair guess that clicking is cooler than twisting a hot head..

I reserve the right to change my mind, as time passes, I dont always agree with myself

I was also curious to compare LiIon to Eneloop runtimes. This chart helped me visualize the differences

 

[AussieRanga]

Just here to dispell a little bit of misinformation in this thread..

Firstly, Li-Ions are far more likely to explode after being over discharged and then while attempting to recharge said discharged cell. I have read of very few cases of them exploding for any other reason than suspected thermal runaway or a short circuit. For this is why protection circuits cut power when voltage gets too low. On that matter, good luck finding quality protected 10440's... I use 350mAh Efest IMR cells with great results.


Secondly, ToolVN doesn't need protected 10440 per se, it has low voltage warning at 3V I think (could he 3.2V).. I also don't think a protected cell would fit.. (If you would want to use one of the shoddy UltraFire ones anyway - which is the only protected 10440 I could find for sale)


Third and finally, someone mentioned AAA lights run on 10440s having a poorer runtime isn't quite true either, as proved in part by the nice runtime plot above. It is quite clear by looking at the area under the curve, the 10440 has a bit more overall light put out over the course of the runtime even though it stops short of the other lower voltage cell. This is due to the higher energy density of a good 10440 over most, if not all, other non-Li-Ion based, AAA sized cells of other chemichal makeups.

Using the ToolVN as an example, you can program it to run on a level very close visually in output to high on an unmodified sample and run 10440 vs Eneloop Pro and I can tell you that after the stock one on an Eneloop begins to rapidly dim, the ToolVN gets at least 10-15 more minutes of "stock high" before low voltage warning kicks in.


Hope all that helps y'all some..

 

[write2dgray]

AussieRanga: Have you ever had a li-ion cell explode? I've only seen it happen when charging (most common) or during extremely high current discharge testing (never in normal operation), not at low voltage when there is little potential energy left. Low voltage protection is predominantly to keep from damaging the cell, anything below 3.5V (at rest) irreversibly damages most cells to some degree (lower capacity, increased IR).

How do you dispose of old cells? I've drained many hundred if not thousands to 0V and never seen one "explode" in doing so.

 

[Capolini]

^^^^

Recycle old cells. I use to go to radio shack,,they are few and far between now w/ a lot of them closing. I will find another place when I accumulate enough older cells.

 

[TEEJ]

Its mostly the fake cells that explode, and far more primary lions explode (CR123, etc) than rechargeables, as people tend to not want to chuck a battery with some juice left in it just to make it the same charge level as the one next to it, etc. For 10440 lights, this is typically not an issue.

The basic considerations for 10440 for example in a AAA light are:

1) The voltages, as 1.5 v and the up to 4.2 v difference can fry things if the LED, etc, can't handle the over current....so, look at the LED/board and what it can take.

2) The heat dissipation, as the extra heat produced due to the higher amp flow, etc, can fry things, unless the light can handle it. The compromise, especially for teeny AAA sized lights, is to only run them on max output for brief bursts.

3) The moonlight/dimmest modes will also be proportionally brighter in most cases, so a 1 lumen low might be closer to 5 lumens, the same way your 100 lumen high might now be 500 lumens, and so forth.

4) Depending upon the regulation or lack thereof, etc...if a light is giving out 5x the light, it might then run ~ 1/5 as long as if it produced 1/5th the light (VERY simplified relationship...), for a given power source. So, if the stock light on an alkaleak produced an honest 100 lumens for 20 minutes, the rechargable lion could produce the 100 lumens a lot longer than 20 minutes, or, a lot more lumens for about the same 20 minutes, etc.

 

[write2dgray]

^^^^

Recycle old cells. I use to go to radio shack,,they are few and far between now w/ a lot of them closing. I will find another place when I accumulate enough older cells.

Recommended to discharge first before tossing in the bin to help avoid incidents caused by short circuiting or physical damage .

 

[jon_slider]

Just here to dispell a little bit of misinformation in this thread..

Firstly, Li-Ions are far more likely to explode after being over discharged and then while attempting to recharge said discharged cell…. For this is why protection circuits cut power when voltage gets too low. On that matter, good luck finding quality protected 10440's... I use 350mAh Efest IMR cells with great results.

super helpful
thanks for clarifying the relationship between explosion and recharging an overdischarged cell

next if I read you right, there is NO quality protected 10440 cell, the popular 350mAh Efest IMR is NOT protected

so, HOW do you prevent overdischarge when using 350mAh Efest IMR 10440 in an unprotected light such as the Stock Lumintop Tool?

I feel like Im missing something in the overall picture, before I could safely try LiIon in a Tool, if quality Protected 10440 does not exist … catch 22?

If I did my WattHour math right, (350 x 3.7)/(950 x 1.2)
then the 350mAh Efest IMR 10440 has ~14% more Watt Hours than the 950mAh Eneloop Pro AAA.

runtime speculation, (need more accurate lumen data on medium with 10440..)
If Medium on a stock Tool with a 10440 produces 95 lumens
and if high with an Eneloop produces 110 lumens for 30 minutes.

Then for sake of example the Eneloop is 15% brighter and the 10440 would run about 29% longer (10 minutes), due to the 10440 having more watt hours and lower brightness.. just an example, needs lumen data confirmation..

 

[write2dgray]

I've had a half dozen Trustfire 10440 protected cells that have seen a good many cycles each, the protection circuits and cells themselves have performed flawlessly. I've only in recent months started to dispose of some of my older protected 10440s as they are reaching end of life and I've moved on to IMR cells in most of these applications as they have become more readily available. I've never seen IMR cylindrical cells with protection circuits as the chemistry is inherently safer and more forgiving of deep DOD (depth of discharge) and high discharge rates without thermal runaway.

IMR cells can also be safely discharged at higher current levels due to the lack of the lower current cutoffs built into protection circuits, which is nice on some "hotrod" lights I own, but they suffer a 20-30% penalty in capacity on smaller cell sizes like 10440, 16340, and 14500.

Also, one small note on the math above: for rechargeable lithiums always use (and assume for calcs) that the "useable" capacity is 80% of the rated/tested ultimate capacity. That is, to avoid damage and get good cycle life from rechargeable lithiums you should only use at max. 80% of the full capacity.

 

[jon_slider]

I've had a half dozen Trustfire 10440 protected cells that have seen a good many cycles each, the protection circuits and cells themselves have performed flawlessly.

… I've never seen IMR cylindrical cells with protection circuits as the chemistry is inherently safer and more forgiving of deep DOD (depth of discharge) and high discharge rates without thermal runaway.

thanks for the coaching… please point me to a link if my questions seem too basic..
for a newbie with a Copper Tool, do I want button or flat top?

and, if I monitor voltage and keep it above 2.5, is this buttontop the way to go EFEST IMR 10440 button top
is there a recommended charger?

and or, do you recommend this TrustFire 10440 AAA 3.7V 600mAh Li-ion Rechargeable Batteries with Charger

 

[write2dgray]

I'm not aware of any perfectly flat top 10440s, any you find should work well. The link on eBay appears (or at least the photo) appears to be of old stock EFEST 10440s, you want these.

For a simple, safe charger I'd steer clear of the Trustfire brand and look to Xtar for quality and reliability. My personal favorite is the Xtar VP2, which has a very nice display and go down to .25A which is more appropriate for these small cells.

A great resource for general battery knowledge is Battery University, I'd recommend spending some time there if you get the chance . Electropaedia is also pretty amazing, with a fountain of information including on how cells are made and fail.

Happy charging!

 

[SemiMan]

[/FONT]

This chart illustrates what Vinh was saying about using 10440 in a light designed for 1.5V. In the simplest boost converter, all that is between the battery and the LED is an inductor and a diode. In a more efficient design, there is a sync FET that is on all the time due to the converter trying to run at 0% duty cycle. If you are lucky, the brightness of the light is controlled with PWM.

That graph shows a light working in direct drive mode pretty much.

If there is PWM brightness control, then you likely still have your modes as the PWM is just PWMing the direct drive. You may loose moonlight modes as moonlight may be a combination of PWM and reduced constant current working in conjunction and you have no more constant current control as the lights in direct drive.

 

[jon_slider]

I am currently edc'ing a lumintop tool ti with 10440

and does it only work on High?


no low or medium modes as reported here:

Got my lights in tried a 10440, lost low and median but high is incredible. Put in an eneloop and all modes work perfect.

Same. This is the only AAA sized light I've owned of that won't accept them, but fortunately it didn't cause any damage. Just one real BRIGHT high mode!

the e-tail from the Lumintop Ti Tool is the culprit. If a … Lumintop Copper Tool tail is used on the Lumintop Ti Tool body with a 10440, you get all three (brighter) modes

This chart illustrates what Vinh was saying about using 10440 in a light designed for 1.5V. ...
If there is PWM brightness control, then you likely still have your modes...

(I probably dont understand your post very well, but appreciate your contribution)
fwiw the Eagletac is officially LiIon compatible, it is not a 1.5 volt rated light.

and, the TiTool does not use PWM, nor does the latest version of the Copper Tool nor Copper Maratac.
Yet @write2dgray informs that both PWM and NoPWM versions of the Copper Tool produce 3 modes with LiIon

 

[rdnesh69]

and does it only work on High?


no low or medium modes as reported here:





(I probably dont understand your post very well, but appreciate your contribution)
fwiw the Eagletac is officially LiIon compatible, it is not a 1.5 volt rated light.

and, the TiTool does not use PWM, nor does the latest version of the Copper Tool nor Copper Maratac.
Yet @write2dgray informs that both PWM and NoPWM versions of the Copper Tool produce 3 modes with LiIon

No loss of modes here, it does bump everything proportionally. Still have medium, low,high.

 

[SemiMan]

(I probably dont understand your post very well, but appreciate your contribution)
fwiw the Eagletac is officially LiIon compatible, it is not a 1.5 volt rated light.

and, the TiTool does not use PWM, nor does the latest version of the Copper Tool nor Copper Maratac.
Yet @write2dgray informs that both PWM and NoPWM versions of the Copper Tool produce 3 modes with LiIon

The difference between "visible" PWM and non-visible PWM, or even hard to measure PWM can be nothing more than the the internal PWM frequency and the size of the output smoothing capacitor. It would be quite normal for their to be a constant current loop, and then in front of that a PWM mechanism. If the PWM frequency is high and the smoothing cap large enough, you will not see any flicker and it may even be hard to measure.

 

[write2dgray]

No loss of modes here, it does bump everything proportionally. Still have medium, low,high.

Now that's interesting - any light that I put the electronic tail from the Lumintop Ti Tool on (and use with 10440 li-ion), I immediately lose any other modes except for high mode.

If I change the tail to a clicky on any of these lights (including Lumintop Ti Tool) all three modes are present when using 10440 li-ion.

Can you double confirm this? If accurate, I'd like to hear from others as there must be some variation here.