Jarhead
Banned
When you start paying over 50 dollars for a flashlight, it should have no blemishes, digs, scratches, scrapes, defects in the reflector, smudges etc.
Amazing
Amazing
Arc will no longer be guaranteeing cosmetics
- Thread starter Gransee
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Jarhead
Banned
HA mil-spec is very picky if you look at the documents for defects....
now that TIN mentioned it, i agree blemishes like fingerprints, hair, scratches on the optics should not be acceptable. these are QC issues that are within the control of arc.
however, tint variations and wonky patterns in the HA are perfectly fine as long as the HA is there to protect the light /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif btw am i the only one that thinks the streaked appearance of the HA on some parts looks cool? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
however, tint variations and wonky patterns in the HA are perfectly fine as long as the HA is there to protect the light /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif btw am i the only one that thinks the streaked appearance of the HA on some parts looks cool? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I think there may be a disconnect between those who consider an Arc 4+ to be a "utility device" and those who think of it as something more. A $180 pocket flashlight isn't like a Minimag. It's more like a Rolex or Leica: some people buy them as bangarounds and aren't fussy about cosmetics; others buy them as collector pieces and are looking for perfection; still others, when they use their light, simply enjoy looking at it and want to like what they see.
It's reasonable to manage customer expectations by explaining that HA color variations are normal and to be expected, and that repeated returns are considered abuse, and if someone is looking for an utterly perfect Arc4, the right way is to do what Ray does, buy and pay for a bunch of them and resell the ones you don't want. It's unreasonable, though, to tell people what they should care about in their lights or how they should use them. Collecting is a perfectly legitimate activity regardless of whether collectors' concerns are the same as other users' concerns.
I wonder if this HA color issue could be helped by bringing back the black HA finish. IMO it looks better than natural HA anyway.
It's reasonable to manage customer expectations by explaining that HA color variations are normal and to be expected, and that repeated returns are considered abuse, and if someone is looking for an utterly perfect Arc4, the right way is to do what Ray does, buy and pay for a bunch of them and resell the ones you don't want. It's unreasonable, though, to tell people what they should care about in their lights or how they should use them. Collecting is a perfectly legitimate activity regardless of whether collectors' concerns are the same as other users' concerns.
I wonder if this HA color issue could be helped by bringing back the black HA finish. IMO it looks better than natural HA anyway.
LightScene
Enlightened
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2003
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- 939
People have differing opinions on what is acceptable. If Peter and a customer disagree, then Peter needn't waste his time and money to please that person. I think that is what he's getting at.
He's also trying to establish, *before the sale*, that the customer should NOT expect a perfect light. He's just not capable of manufacturing perfect lights at a reasonable price. That's a higher level of honesty. We can't ask for more than that.
Looked at another way, Peter's allowing you to buy as many lights as you want, but you always pay for the shipping. If you send one back, then once again you pay for the shipping. What he won't do is pay to ship a replacement to you.
If you don't like that deal, then you don't have to order from him.
One thing I really like about CPF is that the most people who sell lights here go to great lengths to specify exactly what is wrong with their lights. Since Peter is selling in huge volumes, he can't afford to describe every light in detail.
He's also trying to establish, *before the sale*, that the customer should NOT expect a perfect light. He's just not capable of manufacturing perfect lights at a reasonable price. That's a higher level of honesty. We can't ask for more than that.
Looked at another way, Peter's allowing you to buy as many lights as you want, but you always pay for the shipping. If you send one back, then once again you pay for the shipping. What he won't do is pay to ship a replacement to you.
If you don't like that deal, then you don't have to order from him.
One thing I really like about CPF is that the most people who sell lights here go to great lengths to specify exactly what is wrong with their lights. Since Peter is selling in huge volumes, he can't afford to describe every light in detail.
I 100% agree with TIN and PaulR. HA mismatch is fine and acceptable with me due to the fact that the light is anodized in batches. But the scratches, fingerprints (in areas that the normal user cannot get to for removal), lens/optics defects, hair etc should be handled by Arc quality control.
I don't want to make assumptions that Peter would do x or do y if you work with him and Arc. Based on his statement above I would like for him to state what he is willing to do for the concerns that we all obviously have.
I don't want to make assumptions that Peter would do x or do y if you work with him and Arc. Based on his statement above I would like for him to state what he is willing to do for the concerns that we all obviously have.
ViciousCycle74
Newly Enlightened
I would not consider a fingerprint on the reflector, or blemish on the lens to be cosmetic, this is a performance issue. I also could really care less about mismatched HA, or blemishes in the HA, but when it affect the "drive train", then I would definatly want it resolved somehow.
cosco
Newly Enlightened
These are both positives and negatives of beeing small manufacturer. You can keep in touch with your customers, being like "one family" but it can turn sometime or in some ponit and you can find it unbearabe. I can understand that. This friendliness can cost lot of money if beeing abused. If you are that big company that you sell your products in nice gold decorated velveted inside boxes you probably have enough money not to get down by that.
I know there have been lot of talking about cosmetics of ARC lights. Color variations of HA seems OK to me but the scratches and fingerprints do not (did not get any scratched so far).
I used to work in factory as a quality control and we used to check every x piece when they were otnumbered. But this is not ARC case with all the led sorting, right?
I know there have been lot of talking about cosmetics of ARC lights. Color variations of HA seems OK to me but the scratches and fingerprints do not (did not get any scratched so far).
I used to work in factory as a quality control and we used to check every x piece when they were otnumbered. But this is not ARC case with all the led sorting, right?
Jarhead
Banned
I'm not sure of the MIL spec for this coating
This next material is intended for primer and paint applications, and is looser on defects, since it itself is protected.
MIL-C-5541 requirements for MIL-C-81706 protection coatings:
3.5 Appearance. The conversion coating shall be as uniform in appearance as practical (see 6.6). It shall be continuous and free from areas of powdery or loose coating, voids, scratches, flaws and other defects or damages which will reduce the servicability of parts or be detrimental to the protective value and paint bonding characteristics. The size and number of contact marks shall be minimum, consistent with good practice. If specified, contact marks shall be touched up with MIL-C-81706 material approved ont the...
And it goes on to specify the salt spray test of applied coatings, and checking for spots of 0.031 inches in diameter.
MIL-C-81706 goes on to mention in paragraph 3.6 that no defects after salt spray should be evident by eye.
This next material is intended for primer and paint applications, and is looser on defects, since it itself is protected.
MIL-C-5541 requirements for MIL-C-81706 protection coatings:
3.5 Appearance. The conversion coating shall be as uniform in appearance as practical (see 6.6). It shall be continuous and free from areas of powdery or loose coating, voids, scratches, flaws and other defects or damages which will reduce the servicability of parts or be detrimental to the protective value and paint bonding characteristics. The size and number of contact marks shall be minimum, consistent with good practice. If specified, contact marks shall be touched up with MIL-C-81706 material approved ont the...
And it goes on to specify the salt spray test of applied coatings, and checking for spots of 0.031 inches in diameter.
MIL-C-81706 goes on to mention in paragraph 3.6 that no defects after salt spray should be evident by eye.
LED
Newly Enlightened
Peter negosios son negosios! You offer outstanding products, the best personal light on any market. IMO There is no drought that you are on your way to being a very rich man.
But, isn't maybe a little of your success attributed to the loyal members of this forum. I had never herd of Arc lights until I logged onto CFP and now I proudly show off all your lights to all my friends and co-workers. I agree with Kiessling, your standard light should be just that "your standard high quality light" and your premiums should be flawless. I think this grab bag, you get what you get police may not be a really good idea. Besides, non-CPF people don't pay $180 for one-hour flashlights. lol "They just don't understand!!"
5 returns is bulls#!+ though
But, isn't maybe a little of your success attributed to the loyal members of this forum. I had never herd of Arc lights until I logged onto CFP and now I proudly show off all your lights to all my friends and co-workers. I agree with Kiessling, your standard light should be just that "your standard high quality light" and your premiums should be flawless. I think this grab bag, you get what you get police may not be a really good idea. Besides, non-CPF people don't pay $180 for one-hour flashlights. lol "They just don't understand!!"
5 returns is bulls#!+ though
Jarhead
Banned
There's also two kinds of HA color mismatch issues: 1) color inconsistency across a single piece of metal, i.e. a tailcap is lighter on one side than the other. This should be controlled as well as possible without messing up the yield, but after that, there's nothing more to do about it, except some finished parts can be selected for unusually good consistency. 2) Mismatches between two separate pieces, i.e. a body tube and tailcap are each themselves consistent, but don't have the same color. This can be pretty well controlled by selecting from the pieces that come back in a particular batch to match up colors between mating pieces.
I do think that it's feasible, especially for the premium lights, to select the metal parts for good HA color consistency and match between parts. If it were up to me I would always do that for the premium lights, and if that meant the price had to increase some more, then it would increase. I just don't see much point in paying $30 extra for a light whose only difference from the standard version is the LED came off a different reel.
I do think that it's feasible, especially for the premium lights, to select the metal parts for good HA color consistency and match between parts. If it were up to me I would always do that for the premium lights, and if that meant the price had to increase some more, then it would increase. I just don't see much point in paying $30 extra for a light whose only difference from the standard version is the LED came off a different reel.
I think that for the price ARC is selling their lights one could expect outstanding quality, too.
This shouldn't just include the technical features, which are very outstanding to be fair, but also the finish of the lights.
I for myself wouldn't want to by a light that is technically perfect, but has scratches on the lens or fingerprints inside, because I like to look at my lights and enjoy it.
And I'm buying those lights without first being able to look at them and sort the "scratchy ones" out like when buying in a store.
OTOH, I wouldn't return any light for minor HA color differences.
Perhaps returning the light within 10 days from purchase and paying the shipping costs for a replacement would be a compromise. As some said earlier, there are more reasons to buy such a light than using it as a tool.
This shouldn't just include the technical features, which are very outstanding to be fair, but also the finish of the lights.
I for myself wouldn't want to by a light that is technically perfect, but has scratches on the lens or fingerprints inside, because I like to look at my lights and enjoy it.
And I'm buying those lights without first being able to look at them and sort the "scratchy ones" out like when buying in a store.
OTOH, I wouldn't return any light for minor HA color differences.
Perhaps returning the light within 10 days from purchase and paying the shipping costs for a replacement would be a compromise. As some said earlier, there are more reasons to buy such a light than using it as a tool.
[ QUOTE ]
LED said:
5 returns is bulls#!+ though
[/ QUOTE ]
I imagine the fellow who was doing the returning felt the same way. Probably tired of going back and forth to the post office trying to get a light to his liking. Bet he wasn`t very happy about the whole thing. Should have just asked for his money back...but guess he was determined to own an Arc.
Anyway folks spending more than 20 bucks on a light are normally going to expect something perfect...my Pelican M6 led has no flaws...neither do any of my Streamlights...or my AA, AAA Arcs. But if they did...well Arc gives you 30 days to send it back...that sounds fair...but just wants to give you the money back rather than a replacement if you want to try another...I don`t know. What would Pelican, Streamlight or Surefire do in such a situation?
Ken
LED said:
5 returns is bulls#!+ though
[/ QUOTE ]
I imagine the fellow who was doing the returning felt the same way. Probably tired of going back and forth to the post office trying to get a light to his liking. Bet he wasn`t very happy about the whole thing. Should have just asked for his money back...but guess he was determined to own an Arc.
Anyway folks spending more than 20 bucks on a light are normally going to expect something perfect...my Pelican M6 led has no flaws...neither do any of my Streamlights...or my AA, AAA Arcs. But if they did...well Arc gives you 30 days to send it back...that sounds fair...but just wants to give you the money back rather than a replacement if you want to try another...I don`t know. What would Pelican, Streamlight or Surefire do in such a situation?
Ken
I think the Pelicans don't have these finish issues because they don't use HA3. Softer anodization is easier to get consistent color from. I do wonder about Surefire HA3. I don't remember ever noticing any color mismatches on Surefires that I've looked at, but I haven't examined that many.
woodsman
Newly Enlightened
In any business that deals with the public your going to have people who are a big pain in one way or another. Example: Returning a flashlight five times is what I would consider a big pain.
However, this number of people who are a big pain, should be relatively low.
And usually should not be a big enough problem to change a policy as major (IMHO) as this.
If it is that big of a problem and there are a lot of people "being pains" then maybe the problem exists elsewhere, like in the number of problems being released in the flashlights.
I don't care about matching HA. But I would expect a return for a fingerprint and a scratched reflector.
However, this number of people who are a big pain, should be relatively low.
And usually should not be a big enough problem to change a policy as major (IMHO) as this.
If it is that big of a problem and there are a lot of people "being pains" then maybe the problem exists elsewhere, like in the number of problems being released in the flashlights.
I don't care about matching HA. But I would expect a return for a fingerprint and a scratched reflector.
Mattman
Enlightened
If I'm paying $150+ for a flashlight, I would want it to be as close to perfect as possible. Knowing what I know, I believe that the "premium" moniker is on the Arc4+ only because of the light's performance and we will not see any visual differences in the body of the standard light when it comes out. I can see how people might want it to mean "perfect" (or as close as humanly possible), but that's not really what the name is there for.
Some HA tint differences are expected by the majority of us, but I think they should still be as close as possible so it doesn't look like a cheap mismatched light to a non-CPFer. A simple note that there may be some variation should keep new owners from being surprised by this. Any light not sold as a second should be free from serious HA flaws and mismatches, scratches and unreachable fingerprints. That doesn't seem unreasonable for $100+ lights.
Anyone that has repeatedly returned lights for cosmetic reasons should be ashamed of themselves for taking advantage of Peter and making us have to go through this. Do the right thing and sell your imperfect light to finance your search for the "perfect" light.
Some HA tint differences are expected by the majority of us, but I think they should still be as close as possible so it doesn't look like a cheap mismatched light to a non-CPFer. A simple note that there may be some variation should keep new owners from being surprised by this. Any light not sold as a second should be free from serious HA flaws and mismatches, scratches and unreachable fingerprints. That doesn't seem unreasonable for $100+ lights.
Anyone that has repeatedly returned lights for cosmetic reasons should be ashamed of themselves for taking advantage of Peter and making us have to go through this. Do the right thing and sell your imperfect light to finance your search for the "perfect" light.
[ QUOTE ]
Mattman said:
Any light not sold as a second should be free from serious HA flaws and mismatches, scratches and unreachable fingerprints. That doesn't seem unreasonable for $100+ lights.
Anyone that has repeatedly returned lights for cosmetic reasons should be ashamed of themselves for taking advantage of Peter and making us have to go through this. Do the right thing and sell your imperfect light to finance your search for the "perfect" light.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well we don`t know the details...might have paid full price... might have waited 1 week for delivery...returned it...waited two weeks for the turn around...returned the second one...waited another two weeks...returned it and asked for his money back...but the 30 days had gone by. And found he had no choice but to keep trying. Also might not have been a CPFer...might have had poor comminication skills. We here at CPF know the problems involved with the coatings and are more tolerant than those who live in the real world...they might feel the manufacture should be ashamed for not, out of the hundreds of lights they have, being able to find one that was acceptable. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif
Mattman said:
Any light not sold as a second should be free from serious HA flaws and mismatches, scratches and unreachable fingerprints. That doesn't seem unreasonable for $100+ lights.
Anyone that has repeatedly returned lights for cosmetic reasons should be ashamed of themselves for taking advantage of Peter and making us have to go through this. Do the right thing and sell your imperfect light to finance your search for the "perfect" light.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well we don`t know the details...might have paid full price... might have waited 1 week for delivery...returned it...waited two weeks for the turn around...returned the second one...waited another two weeks...returned it and asked for his money back...but the 30 days had gone by. And found he had no choice but to keep trying. Also might not have been a CPFer...might have had poor comminication skills. We here at CPF know the problems involved with the coatings and are more tolerant than those who live in the real world...they might feel the manufacture should be ashamed for not, out of the hundreds of lights they have, being able to find one that was acceptable. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/popcorn.gif
Likebright
Enlightened
I think like good leather the blemish and color shifts and mottling is a sign of process. This is the way it looks. I have had a few ARC flashlights. They all have there little cosmetic characteristics. It is OK with me.
Mike
Mike
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