Building a new home

rlapporte

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Hi. I'm building a new home in Southlake, TX. One of my friends told me to consider LED's throughout the house. Others say you won't get your money out of the due to the increased cost of the bulbs. I'm sure the first question needed to answer this appropriately is for how long will we live there? Answer...I don't know. We might be there 3 years, or 20. I hope it's the latter. Any thoughts on the added expense vs the savings in electrical bills. The house will be about 5,700 sq feet by the way.

Thanks in advance,

Rob
 

cland72

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Congrats on the new home! Southlake sure is a nice part of town, I'm sure you'll be happy there.

I'd be interested to know what alternatives you have besides LED. If CFL is the only other option, I'd say go for LED regardless of cost. CFL bulbs are a biohazard waiting to happen, and the life span is shortened greatly if they are not left on for at least 15 minutes when used. If incandescents are available, that would be my suggested because they are a 100th of the cost of an LED light bulb, and emit a much nicer light (in most circumstances).
 

nfetterly

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I get my LEDs from my utility (Duke Energy) - in fact some just arrived today (including dimmable LEDs). Pretty big price mark down and the 2700K LEDs are actually quite NICE !!

I was in a Double Tree hotel on the outskirts of San Diego a week or two ago, turned on a lamp - so used to seeing CFLs in hotels I thought "that light is quite nice" - it was a Philips LED. See if your utility is selling them on-line.
 

made in china

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Hi. I'm building a new home in Southlake, TX. One of my friends told me to consider LED's throughout the house. Others say you won't get your money out of the due to the increased cost of the bulbs. I'm sure the first question needed to answer this appropriately is for how long will we live there? Answer...I don't know. We might be there 3 years, or 20. I hope it's the latter. Any thoughts on the added expense vs the savings in electrical bills. The house will be about 5,700 sq feet by the way.

Thanks in advance,

Rob
First off, throw away any assumption that LED light sources last 20+ years. Disregard the manufacturers claims. Many of the name brand, well established manufacturers are struggling with reliability, especially Philips. Nothing wrong with the light emitting diodes, it's the electronics that fail. Actually, pretty much true for most things nowadays.

Secondly, shop around for good deals on LEDs. Don't buy LED specific fixtures. Buy traditional fixtures. The industry hasn't settled on a standard yet, so any failed LED fixture will not be repairable (generally) and will require replacement upon failure (that's a certainty). Retrofit LEDs will be around for a long time, much longer than 20 years. And many LED retrofits will be subsidized by your local utility. Maybe not as cheap as CFL, but still a good value.

Even though a LED light source has a decent chance of premature failure, they still have many positive attributes. Newer LEDs are generally brighter than their incan equivalents. LEDs are absolutely better than CFLs. LEDs come in different CCTs, so you can choose from warm white all the way too daylight.

Make sure you "test drive" LEDs before having your whole house outfitted with a certain model(s). It can get expensive to change your mind about LED types/flavors so to speak.

If it were me, I'd wait until high CRI LEDs become more prevalent. Even now it's tough to find 90+ CRI LEDs. By using standard light fixtures, you could run whatever kind of cheap bulbs until we get a better selection of high CRI. You won't spend that much more money on electricity waiting a year or two.

LEDs are real close to being great. But CRI is kinda poor nowadays (I am satisfied with our 83 CRI, but we get great subsidies, I'd prefer higher CRI) and reliability is a gamble. So many consumers/enthusiasts/manufacturers get excited about 25K hr/20 yr LED lights, but no way is that ever gonna happen. Even a nearby lightning strike could hose all of your LEDs.

For us in the PNW, we recently had CREE CR6 cans, CREE A19/A21 bulbs heavily subsidized. "60W" equivalent bulbs were going for 3.99 each. And they are made in USA. SO I got a bunch. And SWITCH went out of business, I bought a bunch of those too at bargain basement prices. Now prices are back up, I wouldn't buy LEDs now. There's no way anyone can prove to you an LED will give you "payback", you gotta want to have LED. And if you get what you want at subsidized prices, then I'd say go for it.
 

tel0004

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I agree with the recomendation to buy standard fixtures. Also agree with checking with your utility for rebates. I picked up some BR30 led bulbs for 6 bucks. Since a halogen BR30 would be 4 bucks the ROI is very quick.

Here is how to calculate RoI. Lets say you use a 60 watt bulb 3 hours a day. That is 180 watts a day. If an LED is 10 watts you would use 30 watts a day or 150 less. In one year you save 54750 watts or 55kw. If you pay 8 cents a kwh you save 4.40 a year. Led bulbs also put out less heat and save money on AC as well.
 

idleprocess

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Hi. I'm building a new home in Southlake, TX. One of my friends told me to consider LED's throughout the house. Others say you won't get your money out of the due to the increased cost of the bulbs. I'm sure the first question needed to answer this appropriately is for how long will we live there? Answer...I don't know. We might be there 3 years, or 20. I hope it's the latter. Any thoughts on the added expense vs the savings in electrical bills. The house will be about 5,700 sq feet by the way.
If you're worried about making the house more energy-efficient, I would look at other far-larger energy measures such as insulation, quality weatherstripping, lower-loss windows, seasonally-controlled attic vents, and of course the most efficient air conditioning units you can buy. Lighting cost is going to amount to a rounding error on your climate control and other major appliances and will be hard to detect with seasonal variations.

That being said, you specifically asked about lighting. There are two major costs associated with any electrical appliance - cost of acquisition (sticker price) and cost of operation (cost of electricity), summing for Total Cost of Ownership (TCO).

About costs using 60W incandescent equivalent bulbs (we'll assume cheap $0.10/kWH electricity):
  • Incandescent (60W) costs $0.50 to acquire, uses 60 kWH per 1000 hours ($6), and lasts 2000 hours ($12 operating) for a TCO of $18
  • Halogen (43W) costs $1.25 to acquire, uses 43 kWH per 1000 hours ($4.30), and has a TCO of $5.55
  • CFL (15W) costs $2.00 to acquire, uses 15 kWH per 1000 hours ($1.50), and lasts 8000 hours ($12 operating) for a TCO of $14
  • LED (10W) costs $15.00 to acquire, uses 10 kWH per 1000 hours ($1), and lasts 24,000 hours ($24 operating) for a TCO of $39
Note that these TCO figures are based on different lifespans. You'll need 12 Incandescent bulbs, 24 halogen bulbs, or 3 CFL bulbs to last as long as one of our nominal LED bulb, so the long basis TCO for incan, halogen, CFL, and LED are $150, $133, $42, and $39 respectively.

The lighting technology itself:
  • Incandescent lights have the lowest sticker price of all the common lighting technologies, but due to their higher operating wattages have the highest cost of operation. Moderately sensitive to on-off cycling. Generally considered to be the most aesthetically pleasing, although some of this is due to its near-century run as the only viable lighting technology for most residential fixtures.
  • Halogen lights are similar to incandescent except they trade a marginal bump in efficiency for a shorter operating life.
  • CFL generally has the lowest TCO if it hits its rated lifespan, but typically still beats incandescent and halogen should it only last as long as those bulbs due to its much lower operating cost. Very sensitive to on-off cycling. General consensus is that lighting quality is lowest with CFL, although if you buy better than the cheapest bulbs you can get much better quality.
  • LED is a moving target right now due to its rapidly-changing retail price. It' can be below CFL on TCO, but is dependent upon hitting its long rated lifespan. Lowest sensitivity to on-off cycling. The light quality of LED is subject to much debate and varies from model to model; that being said. in blind A-B tests most people have difficulty telling the difference between a good-quality "warm" LED and an incandescent bulb. 120hz flicker can be an issue with some LED bulbs - an issue for some.

Lights that operate steadily for many hours a day every day will see operating cost exceed sticker price by many times over. You will probably want to look at light sources that generate the most lumens for the least watts in these applications so as to minimize TCO. Long operating lifespan will be a benefit in these applications, but isn't necessarily a requirement.

Lights that are used intermittently (closets, utility spaces) for short time periods will likely die from cycling or some other failure long before they hit their rated lifespan, thus a lower sticker price will probably produce the lowest TCO.

There will also be lights that don't fit neatly into either of the previous categories, such as hallway lights, dining room lights, etc. For some of these, usage might be high enough to justify something more efficient; for others usage will be somewhat low enough or aesthetic concerns will outweigh efficiency arguments.

As was mentioned earlier, I would just get regular socketed fixtures installed rather than purpose-build LED fixtures - the industry has yet to settle on commercial-lighting standards for LED, to say nothing of residential fixtures. The ability to replace the key lighting elements themselves will remain important for many years to come until the industry addresses this via adoption ot meaningful modularity ala what Zhaga is trying to achieve.



CFL bulbs are a biohazard waiting to happen
There are plenty of other reasons to dislike CFL's - why throw out the mercury argument? Using the because it contains mercury standard, one should also be gravely concerned about linear floro bulbs omnipresent in most kitchens and garages, most flat-panel displays/monitors, and analog thermostats. I've yet to see any evidence of a significant number of mercury poisonings from CFL's or even linear floros.

If incandescents are available, that would be my suggested because they are a 100th of the cost of an LED light bulb
Yes they cost much less to acquire, but are much more expensive to operate than LED/CFL unless your electricity is free.

Avoid GU24 outlets, can't stand those..
Yeah, options in GU24 are rather sparse.
 
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rlapporte

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Hi All,

I was the OP of this thread over 2 years ago. Without boring you with the details our house project was delayed for a while, but we're now getting close to being ready for electrical. My builder asked me if I wanted LED's and if so, which type. Since LED technology changes so quickly, I thought I'd renew this thread and see what you guys think about whole house LED's. I'm going to want hi CRI with most of the bulbs being dimmable. Any suggestions regarding fixtures and specific models of LED's would be most appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Rob
 

rlapporte

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Thanks for the really quick reply! I just checked out the website, and they look really nice. Can you tell me why you'd recommend them over other options? Isn't the CRI of >80 pretty low? Do I just use standard fixtures?
 

StarHalo

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It'd be purely a matter of taste, there are surely options that render colors better than the HUE bulbs, but the ability to do any tint or color with full remote control from your cellphone is just so obviously 21st century that other setups seem pale in comparison. Guests aren't likely to notice spectral deficiencies when you whip out your iPhone and the whole room turns underwater aqua..
 
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I converted my entire home to LED lighting, even the four bulbs in the garage door openers. I've found combining LED's and dimmers to be a hit and miss endeavor. The last bulbs I purchased provided a 1-800 number to call and ask about certain dimmer compatibility. Just because the LED package has the word dimmable and the dimmer package has the words, Works with most LED's, doesn't guarantee they will play nice with each other. If you're going Purchase a gross of each, make sure they're compatible.

~ Chance
 

SemiMan

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Hi. I'm building a new home in Southlake, TX. One of my friends told me to consider LED's throughout the house. Others say you won't get your money out of the due to the increased cost of the bulbs. I'm sure the first question needed to answer this appropriately is for how long will we live there? Answer...I don't know. We might be there 3 years, or 20. I hope it's the latter. Any thoughts on the added expense vs the savings in electrical bills. The house will be about 5,700 sq feet by the way.

Thanks in advance,

Rob


If you can afford the 5,700 square foot house, I don't think the electricity costs of lighting are a big concern for you.

Go LED as environmentally it's the best choice and if you are living in 5,700 square feet, it's time to give back a little. You can also adapt the white color temp to the use of the room better.

I highly suggest dim to warm it casual living spaces where ambience is important.
 

rlapporte

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While I appreciate your advice (and I truly do) regarding lighting, I don't think it's fair for you to judgmentally say that "it's time to give back a little." You know nothing about me, what I do for a living, how many hours I work, the sacrifices I've made for others, how many poor people that I have helped out along the way, how much I've paid into the system, etc.
 

rlapporte

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Excellent response rlapporte!! SemiMans' comment is wholly inappropriate and wreaks of a Narcissistic and entitlement mentality.

Thank you. I had to refrain from going off on a tirade and now my tongue is bleeding.
 

Greta

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Take it back on topic gentleman. Thank you in advance.

SemiMan - warning #1.
 

irongate

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What I would like to see here is when people give their advice on this subject of lighting in homes-could they give their background also in this lighting field if they can?
Thank You.

Coming from someone with over 30 years in building custom homes.
 
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Koam

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I'm a homeowner, pretty good carpenter, commercial fisherman to name a few. In the last year I've installed quite a few of the Philips Hue bulbs and Lightstrips, replacing regular LED bulbs that had replaced mostly halogens. My local utility has instant rebates at some of the big box stores. Costco has bulbs (60w 2700k dimmable Feit) that net out to less than a buck a bulb. Each state is different. The Hue smart bulbs go on sale quite a bit so I would shop around. Check Slickdeals website and search Hue. If you decide you want to invest in the Hue line you don't really need colored bulbs everywhere. They have a dimmable white for $10 and a full spectrum white for $30 if you want to change the temperature. It doesn't take many of the $60 colored bulbs to change the mood of a room. If you want to use Siri to control lights make sure to get second generation hub. In fact all lights and Lightstrips should be second generation. They are a bit brighter and the Lightstrips can be added on up to 30'. With your size house you might actually use the app on a phone or iPad quite a bit since you can control any light anywhere you are. My house is three levels so I can have bottom level light all light up at the same time either from app or Siri. You can set timers and geofences. There are tons of app to have lights flash or change color to music, TV or movies. Not too practical but cool. I need to take my old Lab out a couple times a night so it's nice just to light up the house interior in red light. There is a learning curve to figure out the quirks, especially with Siri, but I've been very happy with them. They also have on/off/dimmer remotes you can stick anywhere that look like regular switches.

Home Depot is always higher priced than Best Buy so I have HD pricematch plus 10% off to BB. I haven't paid retail for any of the 30+ Hue lights in my home. Many were half price or less.

If if I was building a new home, I'd run lots of conduit for wall & ceiling speakers, TV, Cat6, security etc, even if I wasn't adding it right away. Central vac conduit too. LED strip lights in baseboards on motion detectors to walk around at night. I have one on my loft stairs that light up the stairs when I approach them from either direction.



 
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