Charger Comparison

[SilverFox]

Hello Brock,

First let me thank you for letting me borrow your charger(s). /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I did have the cover open during the fast charge.

I believe the issue of charge time would be related to the capacity of the cell being charged. For this reason, I have chosen not to measure that.

However, just for you, I will set a timer and check it out. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I narrowed the focus of this test to check what the various charger manufacturers thought was a "full charge" this is why I am testing when the green light comes on. I will put a graph up of the Vanson and the C-401FS after 24 hours. I believe they should come out the same. Previous tests done by others indicates that after 24 hours (with the exception of one model of a Sony charger) all of the cells equalized out at full capacity.

Tom

 

[Brock]

[ QUOTE ]
However, just for you, I will set a timer and check it out. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't run a special one just for me, just if you happen to run anymore. I already feel special enough /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[SilverFox]

Hello Brock,

The green light comes on in about 7 hours on the Maha C-401FS in slow, and in about 5 1/2 hours on the Vanson BC-1HU.

I will post the results of the "24 hour" charge later.

Tom

 

[wptski]

[ QUOTE ]
SilverFox said:
Hello Brock,

The green light comes on in about 7 hours on the Maha C-401FS in slow, and in about 5 1/2 hours on the Vanson BC-1HU.

I will post the results of the "24 hour" charge later.

Tom

[/ QUOTE ]
Tom:

The C401FS charges at 300ma is slow, 7x300=2100. Isn't that about right? What's the charge rate on the Vanson?

 

[SilverFox]

Hello Bill,

The charge rate on the Vanson is 500 ma/h. That doesn't work out the same, but perhaps the Vanson put a little extra in...

Tom

 

[SilverFox]

Hello Brock,

I have added the results from the Maha and Vanson after letting the battery charge for 24 hours. The Maha was almost exactually the same as when the green light came on. The Vanson picked up a little bit extra capacity.

Tom

 

[SilverFox]

Update:

I have added the results from the CCrane KC-983 Quick Charger. It seems to do a good job as well.

I forgot to add, Thanks Brock for letting me borrow this charger.

Tom

 

[milkyspit]

Tom,

Your efforts here have been great. It's really helpful for lots of us in choosing a good charger! Thank you for the time you've been putting into all this.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thumbsup.gif

I've been using the Rayovac IC3 15-minute charger (both the 4 channel regular version and the 2 channel "travel" version) for a while now, and have been quite pleased with this system. In fact, it's what finally brought me into the NiMH world, because now I can give my cells a quick freshening minutes before I'm ready to go out the door. That's a very appealing capability! I would be interested in seeing how these chargers and their associated cells stack up against the others.

A couple notes on the IC3 system: one is that it supposedly trickle charges non-IC3 cells, so it can charge pretty much anything but only the IC3's in 15 minutes. Also, the AA cells are rated at 2000mAh... I have a hunch that they're actually higher capacity cells and have been de-rated based on the capacity that's achieved in that 15 minute recharge interval... no hard evidence of this, it's just a suspicion. I'd love to find out if this is really true!

In other chargers, I've also been using the Energizer 30 minute charger, which supposedly can charge any brand in 30 minutes or so. Would love to see how that one fares! My guess would be that it would do a better job than the Energizer 15 minute unit, and probably lead to longer cell life overall based on decreased heat generation within the cells. But maybe the testing would turn up some surprises! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

I'd LOVE to see how the Triton does in charging various types of cells. If it's really the star performer that it's reputed to be, I might drop the cash to get one! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Finally, what about that new charger that JSBurly has started selling? The feature set looks great! I'd like to see that one put through its paces, too.

Sorry to give you so much more work here! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif But believe me; your efforts are MUCH appreciated.

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bowdown.gif

 

[SilverFox]

Hello Scott,

I have someone sending me an Energizer charger, but do not have any of the IC3 systems. I have a bit of a problem with them. You have to use special cells to get the best performance. I have tried to eliminate that variable by using the same cells for every test. If you want to let me "borrow" your Ray O Vac, I would be happy to evaluate it with my Titanium 2400 cells. I could probably do a run with the IC3 cells also for a rough comparison.

The Triton and La Crosse BC-900 chargers are in the process of being evaluated. These chargers have too many features for me to cover them all, so I am narrowing my focus to their ability to charge a cell and how complete the charge is when they switch from charge to trickle.

The Triton has a lot more flexibility and seems to be a solid unit. My only complaint (in my limited time with it - it belongs to BWaites and he is letting me borrow it) is that it is conservative when charging Li-Ion cells and packs. It terminates the charge at 4.1 volts. The difference is that the capacity of the cell is reduced. I have shown better than 30% more capacity in a cell when charging it to 4.2 volts rather than 4.1 volts. On the up side, the cells charged to 4.2 volts are good for about 500 cycles where those charged to 4.1 volts are good for 1500 cycles. The question is Which would you rather have, capacity or cycles?

Bill thinks there may be an upgrade that will improve the Triton Li-Ion charging algorithm, but we are not sure about that.

For NiCd, NiMh, and Lead Acid batteries and packs, the Triton is most excellent. I think I may get one for myself.

One other thing, the Triton cooling fan is a bit noisy in an "office" setting. No problems in the workshop, but you notice it when everything is quiet.

Tom

 

[milkyspit]

Tom, the only problem with me sending you my IC3 charger is that I use it quite a bit! Between that and shipping costs, it would almost be easier simply to buy you a brand new one, or forward the money to you to purchase one yourself at your local Walmart. I'd suggest the 4 channel model rather than the travel model, only because I'm guessing the electronics might be marginally better. (Just a gut feeling, with nothing to support it.)
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif

Hey all my CPF brethren! Anyone want to pitch in to fund SilverFox buying an IC3 charger for testing purposes? I think they cost about $20 and come with a pair of IC3 AA NiMH cells. Maybe he could sell the charger on B/S/T when testing is complete and donate the funds to CPF.

Any takers? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif

 

[wptski]

[ QUOTE ]
SilverFox said:
Hello Scott,

I have someone sending me an Energizer charger, but do not have any of the IC3 systems. I have a bit of a problem with them. You have to use special cells to get the best performance. I have tried to eliminate that variable by using the same cells for every test. If you want to let me "borrow" your Ray O Vac, I would be happy to evaluate it with my Titanium 2400 cells. I could probably do a run with the IC3 cells also for a rough comparison.

The Triton and La Crosse BC-900 chargers are in the process of being evaluated. These chargers have too many features for me to cover them all, so I am narrowing my focus to their ability to charge a cell and how complete the charge is when they switch from charge to trickle.

The Triton has a lot more flexibility and seems to be a solid unit. My only complaint (in my limited time with it - it belongs to BWaites and he is letting me borrow it) is that it is conservative when charging Li-Ion cells and packs. It terminates the charge at 4.1 volts. The difference is that the capacity of the cell is reduced. I have shown better than 30% more capacity in a cell when charging it to 4.2 volts rather than 4.1 volts. On the up side, the cells charged to 4.2 volts are good for about 500 cycles where those charged to 4.1 volts are good for 1500 cycles. The question is Which would you rather have, capacity or cycles?

Bill thinks there may be an upgrade that will improve the Triton Li-Ion charging algorithm, but we are not sure about that.

For NiCd, NiMh, and Lead Acid batteries and packs, the Triton is most excellent. I think I may get one for myself.

One other thing, the Triton cooling fan is a bit noisy in an "office" setting. No problems in the workshop, but you notice it when everything is quiet.

Tom

[/ QUOTE ]
Tom:

There is only supposed to be a 10% difference between charging to 4.2V instead of 4.1V. Wonder why you got 30%?

 

[SilverFox]

Hello Bill,

There are a lot of variables. Perhaps I screwed up my math...

Here is the set up:
Sony 18650 of unknown capacity
Charged to 4.2 volts (Universal Charger 0.5 amps) I get 0.682 Ah over 5 runs.
Charged to 4.1 volts (Trident Charger 0.5 amps) I get 0.487 Ah over 5 runs.
Discharge rate is 1.5 amps.

Does that work out to "better than 30%?"

Tom

 

[milkyspit]

It might be that the percentage difference in capacity between 4.1V and 4.2V varies based on the discharge rate. That might explain the discrepancy between the 10% and 30% figure.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thinking.gif

 

[wptski]

[ QUOTE ]
SilverFox said:
Hello Bill,

There are a lot of variables. Perhaps I screwed up my math...

Here is the set up:
Sony 18650 of unknown capacity
Charged to 4.2 volts (Universal Charger 0.5 amps) I get 0.682 Ah over 5 runs.
Charged to 4.1 volts (Trident Charger 0.5 amps) I get 0.487 Ah over 5 runs.
Discharge rate is 1.5 amps.

Does that work out to "better than 30%?"

Tom

[/ QUOTE ]
Tom:

That's like 40%!

 

[RussH]

Hey Milky, I'd be willing to kick in a couple of bucks to get Silverfox an IC3 charger. As far as I'm concerned, the info he has already provided is worth that much to me. I've decided to stay away from really fast chargers like the IC3 but I'm interested in the data for comparison as well as the batteries. The 'fast charge' batteries should be good for higher discharge rates, too, which would imply lower internal resistance and higher efficiency/lower heating.

I just bought some Duracell batteries (2050mah) like the ones sold with their 30 min. charger (but not the charger) and I'll be looking to test them after they are broken in. This is my excuse to buy a new charger (BC900?) from jsburley....and that's another charger I'd like to see tested.

 

[milkyspit]

RussH, cool. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif If we could get a few more people to chip in, we'd be done! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

If we're going to Paypal the funds, though, that "couple of bucks" would probably need to be more like $5... otherwise Paypal would keep a ridiculously large percentage of the money for itself! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jpshakehead.gif

 

[Doug S]

[ QUOTE ]
SilverFox said:
Hello Bill,

There are a lot of variables. Perhaps I screwed up my math...

Here is the set up:
Sony 18650 of unknown capacity
Charged to 4.2 volts (Universal Charger 0.5 amps) I get 0.682 Ah over 5 runs.
Charged to 4.1 volts (Trident Charger 0.5 amps) I get 0.487 Ah over 5 runs.
Discharge rate is 1.5 amps.

Does that work out to "better than 30%?"

Tom

[/ QUOTE ]
Tom, I don't think you have a math problem so much as a cell problem. Even really antique 18650 size cells had rated capacities of 1300mAHr. Since you are only getting about half that amount, I would say that these are bad cells. I agree with those that are suggesting that a difference of only 10-15% is to be expected from 4.10 vs 4.20V termination.

 

[rdshores]

I'll send Silverfox $5.00. Tell me where.

 

[Brock]

Thanks for all the work. I tend to use the 401 in slow, but now I feel a lot more comfortable using either the 401 or the Vanson. All good info.

Thanks again!!!

 

[Tweek]

Perhaps I'll have to use one of my 2400mAh 18650's and my Triton and attempt a 4.1/4.2 comparison test. It does sound like you guys would be interested in the results.

Chris