Cheap lights and your thoughts....

[Big_Ed]

KevinL, I feel that I'm one of the people you're talking about. If you feel that I've been "mouthing off", well I didn't mean it to come off that way. To make it a little clearer, I'll sum it up. I'm a proud American. I want to help my country as much as possible. One of the ways I do that is to purchase American made products when I can. I truly believe that American products are, generally speaking, among the best in the world. That's not to say other countries can't and don't produce quality products, flashlights as it pertains to this board. I have a few myself. It's just that my personal experience has shown me that the quality of foreign made lights are generally lower than American made lights.

And then there's the subject of cheap copy-cat lights. I just think it's wrong to steal other's ideas to make a profit, regardless of where they're made.

I have nothing against the foreign members of this board, or foreigners in general. Just those that are out to bring down American companies and eliminate American jobs. After all, I am an American, and I do believe in protecting myself and my neighbors.

I stand by my opinions, and I'm sorry if there were any misunderstandings.

 

[KevinL]

Kevin:

Guilty as charged here.

I'm extra-ordinarily wary of the economic tactics of China in that they will do whatever it takes to edge out the competition with low prices in hopes of creating a monoply. Guess what? My parents left that country because of that!!!

If you grew up watch your friends slip into poverty, have to move to places far away because the jobs their parents had are gone off shore not because Asia can do it better, but they can do it cheaper, believe me, you would be pissed off as heck too.

Americans don't generally like to bash foreigners either, not more than you do. They are generally open, compassionate people that want to work hard and be nice to their neighbors. But when the jobs that they can do are no longer here because someone around the world can do it for a little cheaper, it's a very sad situation, and when the reality hits home, it's a whole different ball game.

I just simply watched one too many friends move away in the face of poverty

You know, not all Aemricans are living in luxury, most of us just work for a living, like people in other countries. People around the world seem to have this sterotype that all Americans are stupid and earn mroe than they work. But the reality is, Americans now work longer than the JAPANESE and still see their jobs go over seas to cheap competition. DO you think it's fair if you were in my shoes?

As far as the American versatility, let me ask you this:

when the manufacturing began to leave, the world says to America: "don't be defensive and nationalistic, you can move on to more knowledge-based industries."

And today the knowledge based industry has left too, leaving only the headquarters and sales offices here.

So after even our knowledge has been replaced by cheap foreign competition, what the hell are we supposed to be good at and still make a decent living?


Nick

I understand where you are coming from - and myself, not being from China or India, am also being squeezed in the middle. It is our job to stay one step ahead of them in order to prevent this from happening. If a small little country in the middle of nowhere can do it.. I'm sure you guys can too. As I've said, one of the things I have always admired about America is that they have always found a way to solve problems constructively in the long run. I work in the technology sector as well and I am aware of the problem. As someone else told me the difficult truth recently - you (and I, specifically) have to offer something that they can't in order to stay relevant. So I asked.. what is that something? And he told me - it's up to me to find it. Nobody can tell me that. I'm working on it.

Simply making remarks about how you're going to kick the *** of foreigners isn't winning you any friends - that's what I am trying to say - it alienates even those of us who do sympathize with you, and believe me, I do, but for how much longer I am not sure. I have never stereotyped Americans as lazy, stupid, or leading luxurious lives - try to find that in any of my 5000+ posts here on CPF, so please don't brand all of the rest of us out here as stupid out of fear.

I understand these fears are real but don't let them do the talking. Take a cue from Europe - perhaps not quite a power of its former glory, but that has not made them irrelevant.

 

[KevinL]

KevinL, I feel that I'm one of the people you're talking about. If you feel that I've been "mouthing off", well I didn't mean it to come off that way. To make it a little clearer, I'll sum it up. I'm a proud American. I want to help my country as much as possible. One of the ways I do that is to purchase American made products when I can. I truly believe that American products are, generally speaking, among the best in the world. That's not to say other countries can't and don't produce quality products, flashlights as it pertains to this board. I have a few myself. It's just that my personal experience has shown me that the quality of foreign made lights are generally lower than American made lights.

And then there's the subject of cheap copy-cat lights. I just think it's wrong to steal other's ideas to make a profit, regardless of where they're made.

I have nothing against the foreign members of this board, or foreigners in general. Just those that are out to bring down American companies and eliminate American jobs. After all, I am an American, and I do believe in protecting myself and my neighbors.

I stand by my opinions, and I'm sorry if there were any misunderstandings.

Thanks for clarifying, I should do the same - my original post was meant for those engaged in foreigner-bashing.

I agree with you, national pride has its place, as do intellectual property rights and a stand against destructive competition (brutally chopping prices and cutting corners till everybody loses in the end). I'm a content creator too - and have come to see at the end of the day that IP needs protection. If there is no reward for R&D, there will ultimately be no R&D and at the end of the day we will all lose. I still do believe in American technology as some of the most outstanding in the world - achievements like GPS, which guided me on my drive yesterday, the U2 which lit my path, and the Internet that I live and die by. Keep it coming - I am sure you guys will find a way to beat the competition, even given their unfair tactics. It is this innovation and continued progress that makes America what it is.

 

[Haesslich]

You know, this political discussion belongs in the Cafe, IMO... though one thing that should be remembered is that the reason a lot of companies are moving is BECAUSE people won't pay the extra few dollars for something of similar or greater quality produced locally, and companies will try to save money by reducing personnel or manufacturing&development costs.

 

[270winchester]

Uh, Kevin, when I said "kicking their asses", if you look at my word in context, it's about academics. Don't take my words too literally now...

Europe? Europe has been in an economic slump for decades now, high unemployment plagues the continent, and popular discontent is rising in many places, conservative politics are faring very well on that wave....I'll stop before I sounds like I'm bashing Europe..I'm not....

Nick

 

[KevinL]

Uh, Kevin, when I said "kicking their asses", if you look at my word in context, it's about academics. Don't take my words too literally now...

Europe? Europe has been in an economic slump for decades now, high unemployment plagues the continent, and popular discontent is rising in many places, conservative politics are faring very well on that wave....I'll stop before I sounds like I'm bashing Europe..I'm not....

Nick

Ah, ok, it's a bit clearer now. Maybe I've been reading too much into a figure of speech, my bad.

As has been mentioned earlier, this thread was about cheap lights, I've said more than I'm entitled to and thus I shall rest here.

Now where were we, about lights

 

[BentHeadTX]

I have 20 months left in Turkey and reliability of my flashlights, tools, bicycles, computers, multi-tool, electronics and electric scooter is very obvious. If anything breaks, it can be a month before a new one appears in the mail. Both of my computers are setup close to the same way although they are very different in components. Backup drives, software and the like assure downtime is minimal and backup monitors etc take care of total failure. All my electronics are protected by Tripp Lite power conditioners/suppressors as the power is not perfect.

Good flashlights are like good tools--if you need them to work on a daily basis and failure is not an option--they are worth every cent. My Peaks, Arcs and Mag mods have worked great and will continue to do so. This does not mean a Fenix L1P is not on order... must feed the flashoholism on occasion. The L1P's job is backed up by Peaks and Mag mods so if it fails, I am out some money but the minimag R2H will step in.

Cheap and EDC tend not to be compatible.

 

[Brangdon]

What I don't love is paying alot for that muffler, er, flashlight and then (as any semiconductor based technology) watching it steadily become much less valuable/effective.

I think it's wrong to say that your light has become less effective just because a more effective light has become available. The old light is just as bright as it always was. (If it isn't, try replacing the batteries.)

For me, knowing that better technology will be along soon doesn't cause me to buy low quality instead of high quality. It does cause me to buy fewer high quality lights. This is probably a good thing. Whenever I find a new, small light my instinct is to buy 3 or 4, but I keep myself in check by telling myself that a better one will be available later. I still end up with several lights, but with the purchases spread over years. (I am less bothered about the expense as about having a house full of junk.)

The older, less effective lights get moved into backup roles. I keep them in my car, my bug-out bag, my PSK, in tin boxes to protect from EMP, whatever. I am a bit of a survivalist so I like the redundancy. And even though it is only a back-up light I still want it to be a quality one because I might have to rely on it one day.

I haven't yet reached the stage where I have so many lights one of them has no role for me at all. When that happens I will either pass it on to someone who doesn't have so many lights, or else write it off more or less happily as I will have had many years ownership of it.

Finally, I like LEDs, and I am finding myself being driven up-market. If you want 100 lumens in an LED then you don't have many choices. Even 60 lumens if you want a multi-stage switch, water-proofing etc. Can you get that for $10 somewhere?

But what about that feeling of quality?

Quality is addictive. Quality things are nicer to own. The technology is evolving and we are first-adopters. It's going to be expensive. If you are spending the money it might as well be on something which is a pleasure to own.

I am now looking at them as something I don't want forever and I'm tending towards looking at flashlight purchases more as technology 'rentals'.

That's fine. So sell your old lights on eBay. I imagine the quality ones will fetch better prices.

Those of you who like the idea of a mass produced edc designed with cpf input and made in china, how does that become a reality?

Well that's an intriguing idea. I don't quite see how it works though. It seems like several US designers hang out here and take what they read into account when designing their lights. And then the Chinese (or whoever) do make cheap, low quality imitations. Do you just want to speed that process up?

 

[io333]

The new offerings are impressive:
The NUwai 1AAA 0.5W is only as bright as the Dorcy AAA, THe newer AA/AAA 0.5W keychains from Advanced Mart are twice as bright.

Where are these "twice as bright" lights? I never heard of them.

 

[carrot]

The culture that I see is a worthless mentality where performance is optional. Education has been reduced to such a glossing-over that graduates are literally unable to apply their knowledge beyond the most basic level. They are so outclassed by experienced tradesmen that the view has become that all knowledge comes from experience. Thus a theoretical education is devalued as esoteric and engineering graduates become inexperienced tradesman-wannabes who wear ties. Their only real value is that they can run design software.

Be proud. I graduate from high school with an associates' degree of liberal arts from Bard College (yes, sixty or more credits under my belt). Taking Linear Algebra now, took college-level Calculus I and II last year, and thinking of taking Calculus III (multivariable calculus) next semester. Just thought you'd like to know not everyone gets to be a low-achiever. Performance is not optional at my school. You can't keep up, you get out. I've known at least 10 people in my grade to have left (out of 100-120 kids) because they couldn't keep up and were told not to come back.

On a more related note to the topic, I don't care where something's from, as long as it feels like quality. And performs up to spec too.
Edit: And as long as I don't get anthrax / SARS from it

 

[Flashlightmaster2021]

Hey folks,

I love lights. I get a bonerfied woody everytime someone needs light and I get a chance to whip out my flashlight. It just feels good to be prepared, it's like having "kinda-super" powers or something. I'm sure it's deeply intwined with my geek gene but nonetheless , I love gadgets that enhance my persona to something beyond that of mortal men.

But

What I don't love is paying alot for that muffler, er, flashlight and then (as any semiconductor based technology) watching it steadily become much less valuable/effective. Some lights are easily upgraded or don't cost enough that this is a big issue but If I compare an ARC LS purchased 2 years ago to a nuwaii q3 purchased 6 mos ago then the issue I'm speaking of becomes clearly apparent. While the Arc LS is extremely durable and still has a great finish it's relative effectiveness pales beside the Q3 with its better optics and new emitter. The inova X5 is another great example. I've no doubt that if it sat at the bottom of a lake for a hundred years it would fire right up with fresh batteries but it's lame compared to the newer luxeon lights.

But what about that feeling of quality? Quality is important and so is the sometimes related 'impression' of quality (this can be influenced by a high/low price) but unless there is some way of maintaining quality of performance to near that of the lights construction then the quality construction (for many) amounts to a marketing gimic and a burden on the initial price of the light. While I once looked at luxeon based lights as things that can be 'had' forever, my perspective has shifted. I am now looking at them as something I don't want forever and I'm tending towards looking at flashlight purchases more as technology 'rentals'. I know this is a bit unconventional here on cpf with our love of quality machining and HA3, but if it wasn't , I wouldn't be posting.

What this means is that I'm not very willing to spend alot for features that will allow a light to last for 20 years when I know that in 2 years I'll look at the light as a quaint example of older technology. This means that I want to buy a light with cool , high tech electronics but I don't want them housed in something that costs a fortune to make. This means that I want chinese manufactureres to listen to what CPF'ers want in a great EDC and then make it, and make it cheap enough that I don't even bother reselling it in a year and a half, I just give it away, loose it or forget it's in the bottom of some drawer.

What do you folks think ? Those of you who like the idea of a mass produced edc designed with cpf input and made in china, how does that become a reality?

Buy quality and buy once and cry once

 

[michaex]

@Flashlightmaster2021 did you just dig up 17 year old thread to add your one sentence opinion on the matter?

 

[Flashlightmaster2021]

Why of course i did . I thought the thread needed new life and needed to be updated ! lol

Go out and master all the flashlights !! Flashlightmaster out !!! LOL


HAHAHA

 

[KITROBASKIN]

There are some interesting posts in this thread! Some other stuff too, but reading from 11+ years ago, one can learn other perspectives, as well as all too familiar situations we still experience.

Post #28 McGizmo excerpt:
"I am not sure how to put into words a trend that I see and have seen in myself and others here in our country. I think we are blessed as well as cursed with comfort and complacency and the struggle for survival is not a struggle or even an issue for most of us. We have it easy, by and large, and yet we search for meaning and significance. With mass volumes of information and goods and food available for consumption, we needn't focus on the art of fine processing and efficiently gleaning or extracting all available from that which we can consume. We can process everything at a shallow and superficial level and move on to more. We can scratch the surface and move on to another surface. Our economy is based on growth and if new markets are not available then marketing will encourage us to increase our own consumption and replacement of current for newer and better."

 

[Jean-Luc Descarte]

Since this has been necro'd already, I'll add my two cents:

Like everything in life, you gotta know what you're buying, and this also applies to torches. Did you check a spec sheet on the cheap light you're looking at? Have you read or watched any personal accounts of people that got it before you? Does it fit your criteria? And if no info is available, are you willing to gamble or experiment with your money?

I, for example, don't have a super high minimum cutoff for most aspects on a torch. Angry blue/purple emitters with blatant low-frequency PWM and high/low/strobe modes ain't my jam, but I don't require multiple thousands of lumens, 99.99999% CRI or anything like that.

 

[bykfixer]

Push button, light comes out…good enough.
Next day push button, light does not come out. Well it was only $3 so ……

 

[Megalamuffin]

Last night I dropped a convoy s2+ from chest height. It landed on the puppy that was at my feet (didn't hurt him) and rolled on to the floor, so it was not a very hard drop. After that it didn't want to work and I fussed with it for a couple minutes and got it working again after tweaking the tailcap spring a little.

This is not too surprising for such a cheap light, but it does reinforce my lack of fully trusting the reliability of said lights. They work fine most of the time but are cheap for a reason.

 

[vicv]

That's interesting. I find my s2+ is as well built as anything else I have. I've dropped it hard over 10' without even a ding onto hardwood. Sometimes things just break

 

[Jean-Luc Descarte]

I've had to retighten the tailcap assembly and pill on a few of my Convoys. Then again, I only had to do it once and never again. Now they REFUSE to not work, and some have been in several dates with gravity and kinetics. I'm not fibbing, they have the scars to prove it.

 

[stuart]

In keeping with the old thread stuff theme:

Bought a $20 Petzl headlamp recently from REI to replace my $30 (probably $60 with inflation) REI branded headlamp from 1992 that I haven't used in 30 years. Its a game changer. Forgot how useful headlamps are. No more Malkoff in my mouth.

Also fell in love with the Fenix E01 $12, provided I wrap a line of reflective tape around it. Already lost one.