Common Batteries vs. 123s In An Emergency (Something That Comes Up Quite A Bit Here)

[Sub_Umbra]

What if your device doesn't have a power jack then you have to leave the battery door off...

Whether or not I have to leave the battery door off to operate a piece of equipment in an emergency is not an issue for me. In a similar vein, if I had a flat tire and lost the hubcap when the tire blew I'd still use the spare to get on the road again even if I couldn't figure out where the hubcap landed. Yup, if I couldn't find it I'd leave without it, even if it meant that one wheel didn't have a hubcap.

I quess it's a question of priorities.

The whole point is to provide myself with more options in an emergency. If I have something that normally runs on 2 AA alkys I want to have the option to run it on 2 C cells, or 2 D cells or 1 cr123 if I have to. I want to have the option to power a 6v AA radio with 5 AA, 5 C or 5 D NiCad or NiMH cells.

I have been in situations in the past where I had plenty of batteries...just not enough in whatever particular form-factor I happened to need most at the time. After giving the matter some thought I decided that I'd like to have the option to use whatever cells I have to run anything I need to run regardless of cell form-factor, chemistry, etc.

 

[Eugene]

Whether or not I have to leave the battery door off to operate a piece of equipment in an emergency is not an issue for me. In a similar vein, if I had a flat tire and lost the hubcap when the tire blew I'd still use the spare to get on the road again even if I couldn't figure out where the hubcap landed. Yup, if I couldn't find it I'd leave without it, even if it meant that one wheel didn't have a hubcap.

I quess it's a question of priorities.

The whole point is to provide myself with more options in an emergency. If I have something that normally runs on 2 AA alkys I want to have the option to run it on 2 C cells, or 2 D cells or 1 cr123 if I have to. I want to have the option to power a 6v AA radio with 5 AA, 5 C or 5 D NiCad or NiMH cells.

I have been in situations in the past where I had plenty of batteries...just not enough in whatever particular form-factor I happened to need most at the time. After giving the matter some thought I decided that I'd like to have the option to use whatever cells I have to run anything I need to run regardless of cell form-factor, chemistry, etc.

Some of the items I have I would need to tape the battery holder in place as the batteries won't stay in without the door. Scanner is one of those.
Sure its nice to provide options but its a lot easier to standardize on one type so you don't end up having one device needing a different size or having to stock a bunch of different sizes.
Any of my emergency gear runs on AA's. I do have gear that takes other sizes but that gear is of much lower importance so if its batteries die then I don't worry about finding something to fit those. What I do is stock two sets of rechargeable batteries for every device so one set can be in use while the other set is charging. If I can't charge then I fall back on non rechargeable. If things really got bad that I had to figure out how to adapt different sizes then something is really wrong because I can go for months now. Because I standardize on one size I can stock months worth of that size.

 

[Sub_Umbra]

Some of the items I have I would need to tape the battery holder in place as the batteries won't stay in without the door...

I have no idea how that relates to anything I've written. Never mind.

 

[abvidledUK]

Re: Common Batteries vs. 123s In An Emergency (Something That Comes Up Quite A Bit Here)

You cannot standardize on any ONE battery type, you just don't know what will be available in any given situation.

Better to have, and not need, rather than need, and not have.

 

[Illum]

lithium high powered lights dont make good emergency lights...
aside from lithium, I stockpile pak-lites for the emergencies

You cannot standardize on any ONE battery type, you just don't know what will be available in any given situation.

very true:goodjob:

 

[Supernam]

I know this is all for conversation sake, but in REALITY, NO ONE on this forum will have a problem when it comes to lighting in an emergency situation. lol. And, I also might be deviating from the actual question of this thread, but I think what's more important than how many, or what type of batteries you have, is what is the runtime of your lights. A Mag 4D LED will run over 40 hours on alkalines with pretty commanding performance I might add. A Fenix L1D/L2D CE on low would definitely get you quite far. I wonder if one would even be able to use up a pair of AA's in 2 weeks of usage. Remember, even after hurricane Katrina, there was still daylight for half of the day! What about candles? I'd rather burn a stick of wax for 12 hours, then to waste batteries (not really as fun, but more practical). It might even be more environmentally friendly.

 

[Sub_Umbra]

... What about candles? I'd rather burn a stick of wax for 12 hours, then to waste batteries (not really as fun, but more practical). It might even be more environmentally friendly.

No offense, but I stock certain lights and cells just so that I may give them away to my neighbors to keep them from burning my house down with their candles during a power outage. The ability of a city to fight fire is greatly diminished in an emergency -- Nineteen months after Katrina blew through the city still has nowhere near their pre-event fire fighting capacity. It's not a big deal to have a few long running lights and cells to give away to keep from being burned out in an emergency.

Another way of looking at it would be that the month following Katrina was the hottest September since the advent of accurate thermometers. It's worth a few bucks and just a tiny bit of planning to keep from snuggling up right next to a candle to see what I'm doing. Well, it was to us, anyway.

Yet another way of looking at it would be that under emergency conditions I will always do nearly anything to avoid putting out the IR signature of a candle. I will decide exactly who I will reveal the presence of me and mine to -- and I'll decide exactly when it's the right time to risk it.

These very important decisions are taken completely out of my hands if I signal my presence by using candles.

 

[EssLight]

Re: Common Batteries vs. 123s In An Emergency (Something That Comes Up Quite A Bit Here)

Going back to the original post of this thread, one of the issues is "what kind of batteries are more available in an emergency". That implies, when the emergency hits, you are still able to get to the store, the store is open, and you are able to purchase batteries. In the case of a hurricane, when you can see it coming, that may be feasible. But other types of emergencies won't give you that opportunity. So it seems to me, when an emergency hits, the batteries that count are the ones you have at home already. In that case, the type of battery to stockpile doesn't make much difference, just choose the sizes that match the lights and devices you expect to use during the emergency, and make sure you have enough on hand to last a while.

The one signficant difference I can think of, in terms of lithium versus alkaline, is that lithium has a longer shelf life. If you use alkaline batteries regularly, you can draw from your stockpile and constantly refresh it, so the batteries do not become old. If you don't use primaries much, then lithium batteries in reserve make more sense, they stay fresher longer. If you prefer CR123 lights, then this is not an issue, since the batteries are already lithium.

I've just convinced myself, in addition to my regular collection of batteries, I ought to get an 8-pack of lithium AAs, and keep it in a safe place. If an emergency does hit, once the rechargeables get used up, I can keep my AA lights and radio working for a while on that.

Sub_Umbra, I remember a post of yours from a while back where you detailed your experiences during Katrina, it might be useful to link to that from this thread.
EDIT: I found the thread I was thinking of
http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=96273&page=1&pp=30
which has much interesting discussion about what lights to have for an emergency.

EssLight

 

[LiteTheWay]

Re: Common Batteries vs. 123s In An Emergency (Something That Comes Up Quite A Bit Here)

if you can't get to a store to get batteries ......then crank lights are the go.

 

[abvidledUK]

Re: Common Batteries vs. 123s In An Emergency (Something That Comes Up Quite A Bit Here)

Apart from all the other "Emergency" supplies you may have, especially a Survival kit carry bag, perhaps we should have a (unused) torch, and spare batteries, in a small bag, by the door, to grab as we rush out to escape whatever is about to occur. And a small folding knife.

Standing next to the small bottle of water.

 

[EssLight]

Re: Common Batteries vs. 123s In An Emergency (Something That Comes Up Quite A Bit Here)

perhaps we should have a (unused) torch, and spare batteries, in a small bag, by the door, to grab as we rush out to escape whatever is about to occur. And a small folding knife.

Don't most of us already EDC those items?

Actually, you bring up an interesting point, I've never thought about needing to *leave* the house in an emergency. Though I do have a few supplies in my car.

EssLight

 

[abvidledUK]

Don't most of us already EDC those items?

Actually, you bring up an interesting point, I've never thought about needing to *leave* the house in an emergency. Though I do have a few supplies in my car.

EssLight

In your jammies?

Or you may not be at home.

See this...
http://bread-and-circuses.net/?p=176

At least the Easter Bunny made it out alive.

 

[Supernam]

I don't like the thought of simply buying and storing lithiums (common, not cr123) just for emergencies. So let's say your lithiums have a 10 year shelf life. So does that mean that you'll be buying and replacing these expensive batteries every 8 years or so? Why not just buy regular alkalines that have perhaps a 6 year shelf life and continuously use them as regular and emergency batteries? That way you'll always have fresh batteries instead of having a 8 year cycle of fresh-to-old batteries. Let's say for example I have 2 40 piece AA battery boxes from Costo (Kirkland). When I open the very first box, this tells me that I have to buy a new box. The battery boxes are continually used up and new boxes are added. Depending on how fast you use up cells around the house and how many you have in your cache, you always have fresh cells that can be fresher than your lithiums if you were to buy them and just keep them stagnant for most of their shelf life.

*These opinions do not apply to those in cold climate locations as lithiums are superior.

 

[defusion]

I don't like the thought of simply buying and storing lithiums (common, not cr123) just for emergencies. So let's say your lithiums have a 10 year shelf life. So does that mean that you'll be buying and replacing these expensive batteries every 8 years or so? Why not just buy regular alkalines that have perhaps a 6 year shelf life and continuously use them as regular and emergency batteries? That way you'll always have fresh batteries instead of having a 8 year cycle of fresh-to-old batteries. Let's say for example I have 2 40 piece AA battery boxes from Costo (Kirkland). When I open the very first box, this tells me that I have to buy a new box. The battery boxes are continually used up and new boxes are added. Depending on how fast you use up cells around the house and how many you have in your cache, you always have fresh cells that can be fresher than your lithiums if you were to buy them and just keep them stagnant for most of their shelf life.

*These opinions do not apply to those in cold climate locations as lithiums are superior.

and in warm climates aswell alkalines can loose up to 25% their capacity per year in warm climates!

 

[Ken_McE]

Candles, Concealment, Thermal Detection.

Yet another way of looking at it would be that under emergency conditions I will always do nearly anything to avoid putting out the IR signature of a candle.

The thermal signature of a candle should be pretty small, no? Do you cook food or boil water? Put the candle inside a structure and the structure should hide it fine. In your latitude there will also be a lot of thermal noise from different objects being in the sun and shade.

I will decide exactly who I will reveal the presence of me and mine to -- and I'll decide exactly when it's the right time to risk it.

Quite sensible.

These very important decisions are taken completely out of my hands if I signal my presence by using candles.

Your ability to hide depends on who and what is out there looking. If it's the 97th Airborne, and they're serious about it, they'll see you the first time you stick your head out a window. If it's FEMA, they'll notice you about the 3rd time you come into town to pick up a disaster check for the same address. Who has the time, the gear, and the interest to go around looking for you with thermal IR gear? Besides, I would expect searchers to be looking for human thermal signatures, and you are a lot bigger than any candle.

:candle: :candle:<-- Ken_McE and Sub_Umbra comparing candles.

 

[Eugene]

I have no idea how that relates to anything I've written. Never mind.

What I'm trying to say is I can't connect an external battery pack to some gear because they either have a removable pack or the door is needed to keep the connection.

 

[h_nu]

Re: Common Batteries vs. 123s In An Emergency (Something That Comes Up Quite A Bit Here)

Regarding battery packs, maybe I should get a pair of wires with alligator clips on both ends for an emergency kit. Forgot about those until reading this thread.

I've got the Peak Pacific with AAA, AA, and CR2 bodies, the Baltic with AAA and Shasta N body, and a few D cell lights with EverLEDs. My Paklite uses 9V. Lighting won't be an issue. The radio takes AA.

 

[Sub_Umbra]

The thermal signature of a candle should be pretty small, no? Do you cook food or boil water? Put the candle inside a structure and the structure should hide it fine. In your latitude there will also be a lot of thermal noise from different objects being in the sun and shade.

Small and highly visible. I had a friend who's candle inside gave him away after Katrina. He was dusted off repeatedly just to blow it out. It was just a tactic to annoy him and hopefully get him to evac. In this example the actions were very benign. That was his good luck

Your ability to hide depends on who and what is out there looking.

And very much on who's hiding... I don't know if you heard the estimates of how many people were on the high ground in New Orleans a few weeks after Katrina when Rita came through. The Mayor said the population was down to ~400 -- but what did he know? I was there and I can tell you that at that time the city was a training zone for every 'Alphabet Soup' federal organization and they were all there trying out their newest high-tech gear and none of them had any idea we were there until we revealed ourselves to them. We lived well. We had food and water and everything else we needed, including entertainment -- and they had no idea that they couldn't see us. Among them were the 82nd Airborne, FBI, ATF and the DEA just for openers.

If it's the 97th Airborne, and they're serious about it, they'll see you the first time you stick your head out a window.

Don't do that.

...Who has the time, the gear, and the interest to go around looking for you with thermal IR gear?

In an emergency? Thermal imaging equipment isn't at all necessary. Actually what I was referring to was how easy the IR signature of a candle is to spot with any NV Gear. There's lots of NV Gear around -- anyone may buy it or steal it.. Who would have it? I dunno. Looters? Rogue cops? One third of all cops in New Orleans (that's over 500 of them) deserted after Katrina. Actually deserted is a pretty tame description of what they did. They deserted, stole their police cars, stole police weapons (including fully auto), took over hotels and looted the city on a huge scale. They also impersonated police officers as they did all of this while wearing their police uniforms. I'm fairly sure that a few of them could read well enough to pick their way through a Night Vision Scope manual.

The point is that in an emergency it may not be at all apparent just where your greatest threat is coming from. Emergencies are unpredictable. They evolve in a dynamic fashion. There are a huge number of human factors that may change the direction that the greatest threats come from at any time and these human factors will be out of one's control. I was prepared to hide from looters but I had no idea the the looters would be the police. Ironic, ain't it?

...Besides, I would expect searchers to be looking for human thermal signatures, and you are a lot bigger than any candle.

Bigger but not nearly as hot. Actually, at this time most emergency uses of thermal imagery are pretty benign and almost exclusively revolve around finding people who want to be found. It also generally takes lots of time and resources to do it from the ground. In the aftermath of Katrina P3 Orion sub hunters were brought in. I saw one surveying from ~5,000 feet or so. With their sensor package there is no doubt that they would "see" a candle through an open window. As it turned out, the calmer heads in charge of these MIL planes did not sell out the citizenry to the Mayor's toothless minions, which is as it should be. However, this could have easily happened and could easily happen somewhere else in the future. I won't be relying on faith in human nature. I'll default on the safe side with the lives of the ones I love and keep a very low profile until I decide it is no longer necessary.

But back to candles -- there is no need to fall back on them during an emergency in the 21st century -- unless you're cold.

 

[SilverFox]

Re: Common Batteries vs. 123s In An Emergency (Something That Comes Up Quite A Bit Here)

Keep in mind that there are a lot of emergencies where concealment is not required. As a matter of fact, you may want to be found.

On the other hand, Sub Umbra's experience shows that there are times when your survival may depend on how well you can conceal yourself.

Wisdom comes from knowing when to do which...

As BentHeadTX pointed out, wilderness camping is an excellent way to polish your survival skills. When you are away from "civilization" and have to carry everything on your back, you tend to critically evaluate every item you are carrying.

Those of you that do not have natural disasters and are unable to go wilderness camping, can simulate a disaster condition simply by turning the power to your house off for the weekend. A couple of days without power will give you a rough idea of what your lighting and battery needs are.

Tom

 

[Sub_Umbra]

Keep in mind that there are a lot of emergencies where concealment is not required. As a matter of fact, you may want to be found....

That's true but more often than not once you 'come out' it's very nearly a one way street. If a low profile is taken at the onset of the crisis it's very quick and easy to make your presence known later at any time and on only a moment's notice if for any reason one should decide to. In my own case I could have just walked outside at any time I wanted to announce my presence. None of the preparations I had made that enabled me to remain concealed constrained my behavior in any way. My preparations just gave me more options.

On the other hand, in the aftermath of Katrina there were a great many on high ground in undamaged houses with food and water, generators and fuel and everything else they needed who were forcibly removed from their homes, their pets and other belongings in violation of the law. Those who had taken a high profile before they understood the full range of the threats they faced could not go back and undo what they'd already done.

As well prepared as these people were who were forced off of their own undamaged property -- in many cases at gunpoint -- they failed in their overall assessment of the situation they were in. None of them will ever likely make that mistake again. They were concerned about the hurricane and their familys and it never occurred to them that they could be sold out by someone who regarded them only as political pawns.

My goals regarding preparedness are all about creating and preserving as many options for my loved ones as I can in an emergency and once I decide to let the world know where I am it may be difficult if not impossible to undo it, so I'll try to do it very thoughtfully...