Dissilussioned with NiMHs

TorchBoy

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Voltage of 5 rechargeables is very close to 4 alks.
At what state of charge, and at what current draw are you making that "interesting" claim? You don't mean nominal voltages do you? :ohgeez: Have you read Curious_character's essay? You really should.

Edit: Try saying that to the incan guys and see what reaction you get. :aaa:
 
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Curious_character

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Because of two comments I've gotten in the same vein, I've added a short section at the end of the essay dealing with multiple cells. Apparently the application to multiple cells isn't as obvious to some people as it is to those of us who are accustomed to dealing with graphs and math.

c_c
 

Christexan

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The application to multiple cells isn't missed (at least not by myself anyhow), however the entire essay is based on a major assumption, that the device is properly designed to handle a per-cell voltage down to 0.9 or thereabouts (which would be an ideal design for any consumer battery chemistry, I'd totally agree)... also that it's a moderate current draw (see below)

However, it appears in this case of the OP, the products in question are designed too close to the edge of the nominal voltage, and are not drawing a large current in operation (in fact I just looked up the Garmin specs for his model, at MOST it draws around 160mA (0.5 watts max per spec sheet, at 3.0 volts nominal). The spec sheet also mentions alkaline's poor cold weather performance and that it could cause the unit not to turn on, in which case you should use Lithiums instead... both items to me point that the device is NOT designed to handle much below nominal alkaline voltages (bad)... it might even be as high as a 2.5V cutoff (1.25V per cell)... IF that is the case (a blanket assumption), and assuming a reasonable 100-150mA draw under normal (not worst case) conditions (also reasonable from the product specs), then the device would perform EXACTLY as described by the original poster, who described roughly 3-4 hours of life on alkalines, and around 1 hour on NiMH (estimates from his numbers posted). The alkalines are cutting out around 1.25V per cell (from Energizer spec sheets,a reasonable extrapolation would put that at between 4-10 hours)... a NiMH would cutout shortly after getting into it's "flat" discharge area (the constant 1.25V section where it likes to operate)... so when it's at it's best, it's getting cutoff by the device. Basically the NiMH are only working in the "initial discharge" bend of their curve, and never getting to operate at their nominal region.

The NiMH/Alkaline crossover as described in the essay (and thank you again for that, I've written several things like that over time that I've decided not to post, you nailed it perfectly) fails to describe in this case the observations noted.

The problems I believe are the assumption of a well-designed device (doubtful in these cases, it appears they BOTH must cutoff somewhere above 1.1 to 1.2V per cell or even higher), and the assumption of a significant current draw, the NIMH/alkaline curves don't cross for a long time under light loads (between 100-200mA is the break-even point in duration to 1.1V from the manufacturer charts I've seen, typically around 185mA is where NiMH starts pulling ahead at a 1.1V cutoff (at 0.9V cutoff it's no contest, NIMH is WAY ahead even at lower currents).

Bottom line, after thinking, calculating, and looking at spec sheets more, I STRENUOUSLY recommend going to lithium primary cells (Energizer E2 Lithiums)... if these assumptions (and that is what they are, I'll be the first to admit) are correct, then you are actually not only getting bad rechargeable performance, but likely are throwing out more than 1/2 full alkaline batteries as well. You say you are getting roughly 3.5 hours more or less (12-16 sessions at 15 minutes each) on alkalines... if these assumptions above are all true, then you are using ONLY about 525mAh of capacity due to voltage issues of the Garmin... lithium E2 cells will NOT drop any significant voltage on such a device at those current levels, you will stay at or above 1.5V for nearly the entire cell capacity, meaning it will last for nearly the full 3000mAh of capacity, so instead of 3.5 hours, you'll get closer to 20 hours of life out of them. So although a bit pricey, each lithium will replace nearly 6 alkalines (so for your Garmin with 2 batteries, you can replace 12 alkalines for around $4 of lithiums. I can't find the specs on the Foxpro device, but if it's a similar issue, then 6 lithiums (at a cost of around $12) will replace potentially 36 alkalines. In cold conditions, this difference is MUCH greater, if you are hunting in freezing temps, each lithium will probably double or even triple it's advantage over alkalines... at that point alkalines are very EXPENSIVE compared to the lithium E2s.

2 things to test (at home for grins, or in the field, doesn't matter), after running the device to "cutoff" with alkalines, save the batteries... test them with a voltmeter if you have one, individually, or leave them in the device and probe the opposite ends of the "stack" if you can, to see what the net per-cell voltage is. (Best results would be to test right after the device dies before the cells can "bounce back"... or wait a bit, turn the device back on while testing the batteries for a little bit (it should come back on at least briefly after some rest) and get a measurement. If the batteries are over 1.1v, then neither alkaline nor rechargeables are a good solution in the device, use lithiums... or use an external pack solution as described, with one extra rechargeable to ensure staying above the device cutoff (although I wouldn't recommend this blindly on the 2-cell Garmin, the voltage might be TOO high with 3 rechargeables, probably not, but it's your risk on that...) the 6-cell device would definitely have no problem with a 7-cell rechargeable pack though (at 8.4V, still below the device nominal 9V, probably would be fine with 8 in fact at 9.6V).
I'd enjoy hearing your findings if you can test the 2 devices just to see where they are really cutting off at and to see if any of my assumptions are correct.
 

Christexan

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Oh yeah, for Torchboy, the lithium capacity isn't listed directly on the spec sheet, but is listed on the table that links to the spec sheet, still listed at 3000mAh which I'm finding conservative so far in my usage, or I just got "super cells", LOL.
 

TorchBoy

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OK, having actually read all of that post, I think a summary would be something more like "The application assumptions are NOT correct." It's a low current device, etc.

I can see that lithiums would be really good to try. The high volts they maintain and their great performance in freezing conditions should make a world of difference.

Another thing to try would be Eneloops. They won't last as long but should be less expensive. At only 100-200mA they should hold above 1.25V for maybe 90% of their life. And no, Curious_character, I haven't seen any other AA NiMH results from SilverFox which show such a high voltage as Eneloops, even on the best name brands and high current cells.
 

Curious_character

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Here are plots of the voltage of an old Sanyo 2500 mAh cell and a new one, compared to an Eneloop, at 1A. The old Sanyo cell had probably 20 or so cycles and is several years old. It's about the vintage of the 2300 mAh Energizer cell I posted earlier. The new Sanyo 2500 mAh cell hasn't had more than a couple of cycles after using the initial conditioning cycle of the Maha MH-C9000 charger:

1A_NiMH_Comparison.gif


As you can see, the voltage of the new Sanyo is as high or higher than the Eneloop, and the old Sanyo isn't much lower. It certainly isn't enough lower to have any impact on the alkaline-NiMH comparison in my essay.

As for voltage with 100 mA load, here's what the Eneloop looks like:

Eneloop_100mA.gif


You're right -- it doesn't drop below 1.2 volts until it's just about dead.

The alkaline cell is discharging now at 100 mA.

c_c
 

TorchBoy

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As you can see, the voltage of the new Sanyo is as high or higher than the Eneloop, and the old Sanyo isn't much lower. It certainly isn't enough lower to have any impact on the alkaline-NiMH comparison in my essay.
Great comparison c_c. Now all I want to know is why Tom's Eneloop discharge voltage was so much higher than your one. For the curve you got (at 1A) his equivalent draw would be about 2.5A. Your final drop off is more sudden too. :thinking: :shrug:
 

hunterlar3

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I thought my thread had died ... guess not. I think I solved one problem already as I just ordered a new gps (Vista Hcx). It's supposedly much easier on batteries than my old Vista. We'll see. Didn't upgrade because of the battery problem but it did get me looking at new ones, and well, new technology mandates upgrade. The Hcx actually costed considerably less than what I paid for the old Vista.:grin2:

My original goal in going rechargeable NiMH was to lower my operating costs. Alkalines gave me about a day of runtime in each device. That's 10 per day (maybe $5). A 3 day hunting weedend was $15 in batteries. I figure I get 20-30 hunting days out of a winter...maybe as much as $100 or more in alkalines. I don't know about you but I'd much rather spend that on guns, ammo, or gas.

The gps ran on the NiHMs but didn't function as well. Changing sceens was slow or didn't work at all. Runtime was also less than alkaline. Sometimes it ran OK for a while on them (NiMH) but all in all they weren't anywhere near alkaline performance.

Foxpro never functioned acceptably with NiHMs. Mine anyway. Several times it cut out on the first stand on a freshly charged set. The longest I can remember it running is part way into stand 3 of the day. This is totally unacceptable for me. Funny thing is that Foxpro sells an optional NiHM battery pack for my unit and a quote from a reseller... "The FX5 will operate from 8AA alkaline batteries, but the optional NiMH batteries are strongly recommended for optimum performance." That is a pretty bold statement, and with my experience, I can't even imagine under optimum conditions that it would even be close to true.

I tried lithiums in the Foxpro once. Granted, I didn't put a stop watch to them as it was real time for counts hunts, but I didn't notice much longer runtime. I decided the extra cost wasn't justified.

I think my problem was/is a combination of several factors. Devices are particularly low voltage sensitive, possible poor batteries (even 1 or 2 poor cells can ruin the performance of the bunch), possible poor charger (there are certainly better chargers out there), eviromental factors (cold temps-alkalines would still run though).

What I've decided to do is invest in a 4 pack of Eneloops and see if they do a decent job in the new Vista. Enough good things have been said about these that you can't all be wrong. If they do decent, I'll invest in some more to try in the Foxpro. A Maha C-9000 also seems like a good idea. Just maybe the Maha can even make my old Energizers usefull. These things are going to have to wait a bit though, as I just spent a bunch on a new gps and accessories. This is alright though, as there is still over a month before the fur flies.

Thanks for all the replys.
 

Eugene

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Definitely get some 'loops and a good charger. I use them in things like my CB which is used for camping or hunting trips. The eneloops work grate because I don't have to worry about charging them all just before I leave since they don't have the self discharge issue like regular batteries, not i can just leave them sit.
They are as addicting as lights, I have bought almost 4 dozen this year.
 
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