I'm done with Cool White!

[peter yetman]

I'm still determined that I'll buy nothing but Nichia in the future, but I have to say that Cool White does have its uses.
I use a 6200K HDS at the Brewery, nothing cuts through steam like this to be able to read fluid levels, and nothing is as efficient as CW to highlight any bits of grot in otherwise sterile tanks.
It doesn't give me that strange priveval satisfaction that a decent 219B does, though.
P

 

[Mark Anthony]

.... and animals have been functioning with 4000K (approx) moonlight for 100's of millions of years, and there is likely far more evolutionary pressure for being able to function in moonlight versus around the campfire.

Warm is not better for color rendition. That makes no sense. There is not enough blue to enable color discrimination across a fairly wide range of colors, especially for things like wire). Even for blood, there is little benefit for a warm light. A high CRI cool light will be just fine ... just like sunlight.

References:
Light color and sleep is real. I recently overcame a sleep issue and cool lights at night were a factor
Light color and sleep:https://medium.com/@jubishop/how-to-get-better-sleep-fcb74f4df0b5

Good point on the moonlight and animals, but probably really counts on/near the full moon, and when it's clear. And it still disrupts sleep.
Moonlight and sleep:https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(13)00754-9

It might be one reason people and animals go crazy during a full moon

CRI: Warm lights having better color rendition than cool lights are just my opinion and I should have said as such. They are skewed to the red spectrum but not as much as cool lights are skewed to the blue. Both are incomplete spectrums but in my experience cool light washes out colors more so than warm. To take the moonlight example, I find true colors are harder to differentiate during a full moon than they are at sunrise or sunset.

If color rendition is important then yes always go for the high CRI option.

 

[idleprocess]

CRI: Warm lights having better color rendition than cool lights are just my opinion and I should have said as such. They are skewed to the red spectrum but not as much as cool lights are skewed to the blue. Both are incomplete spectrums but in my experience cool light washes out colors more so than warm. To take the moonlight example, I find true colors are harder to differentiate during a full moon than they are at sunrise or sunset.

Sunrise/sunset on a clear day: ~400 lux
Full moon on a clear night: up to 0.3 lux

I'm sure that a 1333 factor difference in light is more important than the CCT differences between sources - especially when one is so dim as to be just capable of triggering color vision. My experience with the fullest of moons on the clearest of nights outside of ambient city lighting has been one of really sharp night vision with touches of color. Contrast to sunrise/sunset which shade things red but otherwise color vision remains fully engaged.

Much of the conversation has been about firelight - which might technically be 100 CRI as a blackbody radiator but is so deficient in green and blue as to be outside of what most would consider "high CRI" light. My experience with it has been one of warm colors being vivid - red, orange, yellow - but the green and blue ends being almost absent, similar to high pressure sodium lights. I've heard 1900K CCT for wood flame, which is so heavy on red that whatever green or blue is present is hardly perceived; here's the only reference I was able to find quickly - note that Figure 2 uses kerosene fire as its reference.

Our visual perception is - pardon the pun - colored by our past experiences. For a sizable fraction of the population that's going to skew towards warm CCTs since we grew up with incandescent light sources. Throw in a markedly different CCT for someone used to a given range - even with markedly higher color accuracy - and they won't be effective with it until after some period of adjustment.

If color rendition is important then yes always go for the high CRI option.

Seriously, this. Whatever your subjective preference or professional experience, quantitative color accuracy should be sought when important ... in a CCT you're comfortable with.

 

[klrman]

After collecting many lights, too many probably, I prefer CW in my throwers and NW in my flooders. I sold all my CW flooders and NW throwers.

 

[bykfixer]

I like my cool white PKDL FL2, my neutral Elzetta Bones and my warm Kel-Lites. Heck, if I push the button and light comes out I don't care if the tint is baby blue. My eyes adapt.

The other night at a mall the Mrs. and I were leaving a store and could not find the car. Those so-called high CRI parking lot lights made the champagne colored car look white. We finally looked at license plates to find it.

 

[LogansRun]

I like CW for mountain bike riding, neutral white didnt provide the details I needed. Neutral white for the casual flashlight use.

Guess it's very individual,since mountain biking is what brought me to NW lights. I mountain-biked with cool white LED's when 200lmns was a lot of light and I remember being excited as I had a new 65lmn headlamp that I used on single-track and fire-roads. Well, as soon as I turned on the light, I was so disappointed as everything was washed out and everything was flat. Luckily, I also had another light strapped to my handlebar at a lower angle that gave me some definition.

Mountain biking is what led me to NW in the first place. My eyes used to get so exhausted with 6500k, once I switched to 5000k that problem was gone and I've never gone back...

Similar experience here, after being disappointed with CW emitters, I got myself a custom-built headlamp with triple Seoul USVOH tint (remember those??) and the difference was astounding as I could suddenly see more detail on the trails. Since then I look first for NW and have been slowly upgrading drop-in's with 4000K LED's.

Having said that, I have grudgingly bought lights for my road bike that are CW... not great but not as critical as mountain-biking lights.

 

[jon_slider]

Cool White is not so bad IF it is High CRI and Neutral Tint.

Try a Sofirn C01 in 5600k if you want an inexpensive introduction to High CRI Cool White with Neutral Tint.

begin sermon about Tint, CRI, and Color Temperature terminology:

Neutral White does not necessarily mean High CRI
Most High CRI LEDs are not Cool White
Most Cool White LEDs are not High CRI

When my brain has its white balance set to Cool White, I dont like to use flashlights that are Warm White
When my brain has its white balance set to Warm White, I dont like to use flashlights that are Cool White

I dont like Low CRI, I do like High CRI

Cool White High CRI:

Cool White Low CRI:

Warm White High CRI:

Warm, Neutral, and Cool White are not Tints, they are Color Temperatures
Tint refers to colors above (green, yellow), and below (pink, magenta) the BBL (Neutral Tint Line).
Neutral Tint is not the same as Neutral White Color Temperature

I have Neutral White Lights that do not have Neutral Tint, and that are not High CRI. I prefer not to use them.

 

[trailhunter]

I'm done with this thread, unsubscribing

 

[Modernflame]

Neutral White does not necessarily mean High CRI
Most High CRI LEDs are not Cool White
Most Cool White LEDs are not High CRI

Good summary, Jon. The tie dye reveals much about your personality.

 

[bykfixer]

Things can also be subjective to the user as well.

Case in point is that the top photo in jon's post appears more natural to me than the bottom one.

 

[jon_slider]

Things can also be subjective to the user as well.

Case in point is that the top photo in jon's post appears more natural to me than the bottom one.

I agree completely.
The top photo is the 5600k High CRI Sofirn C01 and yes, it looks more like daylight (5500 Kelvin Color Temperature).

The bottom photo is the 3200k High CRI Sofirn C01 and yes, it looks extra warm, more like candlelight (2000 Kelvin Color Temperature).

I like the option to use both, at different times.

The warm one is much more pleasant in full darkness, than the cool one, which feels cold.

otoh, when my brain is adapted to daylight color temperature (5500k), the cool one looks better, and the warm one looks too orange.

I like warmer light when my brain is adapted to darkness. I like cooler light when my brain is adapted to cool ambient light.

in ALL cases, I want High CRI.

The middle photo is a Cool White Low CRI Fenix E01 (about 6000 Kelvin Color Temperature). I hate its poor color rendering at all times, of day or night.

Im done with Low CRI Cool White, Im also done with Low CRI Neutral White and Im also done with Low CRI Warm White.

Merry Xmas!

 

[koziy]

People will probably look at my post count and say "pfft, what a typical plebeian opinion," and I admit I'm not as much of a flashlight-a-holic as some other people here, but I honestly prefer a cooler beam for almost everything in the outdoors. I have been a little bit frustrated lately with the industry trend toward warmer beams, which is what brought me to make an account here, hoping to find more options for LED flashlights with cooler tinted beams.

Now don't get me wrong, I recognize that there are situations where a neutral or warm tinted white light is just better for certain things... For example, my dog has a cut on his neck and a little earlier today I checked it for redness to see how it's healing up. I grabbed a flashlight with a very neutral/warmish tint so I could ascertain any redness on his skin around his cut with high confidence in the colors I was seeing. Since it's not my own skin, I don't know if it's painful. All I have to go on is redness, so color accuracy is vitally important to the task.

However, in the outdoors, especially in eastern woodlands where the brown, leafy groundcover is a little bit too low contrast to make out the trail in the first place, I feel like cool white beams do a better job of clarifying details in the trail, whereas neutral white or warmer tints do not. Warmer tint beams in the woods just don't seem as bright to me, and one of my reasons for saying that is comparing my older the Fenix HP25 headlamp's cool white beam against the newer model, the HP25R, that's supposed to have the same light characteristics except for its neutral white LED and supposedly higher lumen rating. Unfortunately, when in actual use, the original HP25 renders a far brighter and clearer scene to my eyes. I also compared a Maratac AAA Rev 3 vs the newer Rev 5, which again are supposed to be the same light except for the tint of white and the lumen rating, and I can't think of a single situation in the outdoors where I'd prefer the higher lumen neutral white over the lower lumen cool white beam. Maybe those are bad examples, but like I said, it was my distaste for these two examples that prompted me to join this forum, so it only seemed appropriate that I share that with this thread.

 

[Modernflame]

I have been a little bit frustrated lately with the industry trend toward warmer beams, which is what brought me to make an account here, hoping to find more options for LED flashlights with cooler tinted beams.

No worries. It's true that the industry has made strides to accommodate people who prefer warmer tints, but the majority of LED flashlights on the market still have CW emitters. You won't have any trouble finding one to your liking.

 

[Chauncey Gardiner]

People will probably look at my post count and say "pfft, what a typical plebeian opinion,"......

Hi koziy. :welcome:

~ Chance

 

[bykfixer]

Welcome aboard kozly.

Great first post.

 

[jon_slider]

I grabbed a flashlight with a very neutral/warmish tint so I could ascertain any redness on his skin around his cut with high confidence in the colors I was seeing. Since it's not my own skin, I don't know if it's painful. All I have to go on is redness, so color accuracy is vitally important to the task.

Welcome and Happy New Year.
Enjoyed reading your well thought out post and examples.

I respect that you like cool white better than neutral white. I dont like neutral white, nor cool white, unless they are High CRI.

Neutral white does not have better color accuracy. Color accuracy comes from High CRI.

You can have cool white with High CRI, and that may be the best combination for you. I encourage you to try a High CRI light, in the color temperature you prefer.

 

[idleprocess]

I have been a little bit frustrated lately with the industry trend toward warmer beams, which is what brought me to make an account here, hoping to find more options for LED flashlights with cooler tinted beams.

No worries. It's true that the industry has made strides to accommodate people who prefer warmer tints, but the majority of LED flashlights on the market still have CW emitters. You won't have any trouble finding one to your liking.

Seconded. >5000K isn't going anywhere in the industry as a whole simply because the larger market responds to cool white's higher efficiency and perceived brightness advantage over same-lumens emitters that have warmer temperatures. Current LED technology (blue die + yellow phosphor) is inherently more efficient in terms of lumens/watt with cool temperatures.

Some makers that cater to the CPF demographic might focus their offerings to ≤5000K, but with high CRI being steadily easier to obtain across the range of tints I suspect that they will accommodate the range of preferences.

Me, I just wish that neutral tints remain available in decent CRI. If others want warm or cool, I imagine the the market will continue to provide.

 

[jon_slider]

the larger market responds to cool white's higher efficiency and perceived brightness advantage over same-lumens emitters that have warmer temperatures.

I agree completely that the lumens race is alive and well, and new buyers always choose the light with the most lumens.

In my experience even Low CRI, neutral white emitters do not have the same lumens as cool white emitters.

for example, the Titanium Neutral White S Mini tested by maukka @ 515 lumens, the Copper Olight S Mini in Cool White tested @ 580 lumens, which is 13% brighter.

so the Neutral White not only Looks dimmer, it IS Dimmer.

the brightness penalty is even larger for High CRI,
Olight S1 Mini Cool White is rated for 600 lumens, while the High CRI is rated for 450 lumens.. that makes the Cool White a full 1/3 brighter.

clearly a flashlight buyer that has not learned the value of High CRI will choose the 600 lumen model over the 450 lumen model.

Marketing focuses on Lumens, and most buyers do too. Cool White has the most lumens.

 

[WalkIntoTheLight]

However, in the outdoors, especially in eastern woodlands where the brown, leafy groundcover is a little bit too low contrast to make out the trail in the first place, I feel like cool white beams do a better job of clarifying details in the trail, whereas neutral white or warmer tints do not.

Brown leaf litter? A high CRI neutral white or warm white is the answer. Yes, it will be dimmer than cool white, but it will show much better color contrast, and make those different shades of brown stand out much better. It will allow you to see more with less lumens, with a nice side effect of preserving your night vision a bit better.

IMO, low-CRI cool white is almost never the correct answer, unless there's almost no color contrast in a scene (such as a parking garage or something like that).

 

[flashfan]

Cool white (5000+) is a general preference, but outdoors at night, somewhat warm tints make things look more "natural," and with better depth...but that's to my eyes only.

Try this at night: take out each of a black, a dark navy blue, a dark brown and/or a very dark green sock, and place them side by side. Now using different tints, which light works best to differentiate the colors? For me many years ago, the cool white LED worked best...but I did not (still do not) have CRI lights...