J.W. Speaker Denouncing Low-CCT White Light?

[cetary35]

I knew you would bring up glare. Be aware that glare is more a function of light going where it's not wanted, and source size, then it is of CCT.

Childish mocking, is immature. Also, resource please.

Moreover, I'd love the study to do both on and off-axis target detection, color recognition, reaction times, etc.

You didn't view the video or the research. I'll link it again. Alan Lewis's research included off-axis target detection under "target eccentricity." Furthermore, UC Davis already conducted studies that included.

During EPIC-sponsored CLTC laboratory activities, a broad range of products between 2,200 K and 6,500 K has demonstrated that similar color rendering, discrimination, and visual acuity can be achieved.

They've already tested a broad range of CCT.

 

[jtr1962]

You know what your commentary reminds me of, smoking. Your commentary reminds me of the smoker, someone who acknowledges that what they do is bad. However, they try and find some odd/arbitrary middle ground in which everyone loses. I'm sure similar thought processes yielded this ineffective "compromise".

Here's the difference. In the case of smoking, a smoking section which exposed non-smokers to second-hand smoke was not a real compromise. In the case I mentioned, those who prefer the extremes of the CCT scale can still tolerate something in between. Those who prefer something in the middle will love it. Nobody is terribly unhappy. However, if you chose one of the extremes, those who prefer the other extreme will hate it, those in the middle will at best tolerate it. Only those who prefer the extreme will love it.

 

[jtr1962]

Childish mocking, is immature. Also, resource please.

https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/vanderlofske.pdf

One of the slides says glare SPD has no impact on target detection. That kills your pet theory that high CCT sources are more glaring.

You didn't view the video or the research. I'll link it again. Alan Lewis's research included off-axis target detection under "target eccentricity." Furthermore, UC Davis already conducted studies that included.

They've already tested a broad range of CCT.

Here's my big problem with these sources. It's more of the blue light, melatonin suppression nonsense which is immaterial to roadway lighting. The purpose of roadway lighting is safety. If blue light keeps drivers from falling asleep, that's a feature, not a bug. If the AMA wants to recommend limiting blue light in your home before you go to bed, that's more in their scope. Ditto for pushing cities to install fixtures which don't shine into people's windows. But they're out of their lane with their recommendations for roadway lighting which are directly in conflict to public safety.

"Shorter wavelength light does allow better color rendition and peripheral acuity, but warm white provides very good visibility on major streets while reducing perceived glare and lower traffic areas do not need maximum brightness as headlights combined with less bright street lights work at slower speed limits."

Wow, so here they're basically admitting what I and others have repeated ad nauseum in this thread, then using weasel words to justify their end desire of using "warm white" anyway. In a nutshell, they're fine with compromising public safety AND making cities at night look like crap. I was so thrilled when those horrible HPS started getting replaced with LEDs which actually made me enjoy being out at night. Then this silly push for low CCT outdoor lighting started. Sorry, but this is a step in the wrong direction for all the wrong reasons.

 

[kerneldrop]

And actually "is" isn't....or is it?
This is like watching a 2 proppelerheads ping pong match on an Atari. You fellas sure know how to have a good time.

@cetary35 post count before this thread: 5
After this thread: 77
Lol

 

[KITROBASKIN]

4 days old thread, 7 pages and counting. Why hasn´t anyone mentioned albedo? All the cool dudes do.

 

[knucklegary]

Doctors have a little blue pill for low albedo 😁

 

[och]

I was on the road at 5AM this morning, and I have been specifically paying attention to the street lights. Turns out there are some warm white LED street lights in Brooklyn, and they do seem to be a lot worse than the 4300k ones. They do not seem to be as bright, and the light quality is low, they almost have a green hue that kind of reminded me of old MV lights.

There were also a few spots with remaining HPS lights, right next to LEDs, and now that I was paying more attention they do seem to be at least as bright as the LEDs.

 

[turbodog]

Continuously lighting highways is a poor/questionable practice, btw.

And Caltrans' experience with ridding themselves of continous expressway lighting.

Don't confuse correlation w/ causation. It's possible, even probable that people simply drove more slowly due to reduced/insufficient lighting, thereby reducing collisions, a net outcome not undesirable (from an accident perspective... not sure about productivity).

 

[jtr1962]

I was on the road at 5AM this morning, and I have been specifically paying attention to the street lights. Turns out there are some warm white LED street lights in Brooklyn, and they do seem to be a lot worse than the 4300k ones. They do not seem to be as bright, and the light quality is low, they almost have a green hue that kind of reminded me of old MV lights.

Exactly the same as my experience with them. Poor color rendering, poor tint, dimmer, and horrible for actually seeing stuff. It's a shame because when NYC put in the 4300K lights my first reaction was the city actually did something right for a change. Since you live in NYC, you know how rare that is. We've taken screwing up to an art form here. Of course, they had to keep their track record going by installing the 3000K lights. Honestly, if they insisted on going to lower CCT, 3500K would have been fine, and not too objectionable.

There were also a few spots with remaining HPS lights, right next to LEDs, and now that I was paying more attention they do seem to be at least as bright as the LEDs.

Yes, the primary difference between the two in terms of output is that the globe over the HPS bulb makes the source size larger, which in theory reduces glare. We could have put a similar diffuser over the LEDs. HPS though is still awful for actually seeing stuff, even with the brightness.

 

[och]

Exactly the same as my experience with them. Poor color rendering, poor tint, dimmer, and horrible for actually seeing stuff. It's a shame because when NYC put in the 4300K lights my first reaction was the city actually did something right for a change. Since you live in NYC, you know how rare that is. We've taken screwing up to an art form here. Of course, they had to keep their track record going by installing the 3000K lights. Honestly, if they insisted on going to lower CCT, 3500K would have been fine, and not too objectionable.

There are spots on the BQE where it meets belt parkway, with some 4300k LEDs mixed with the new 3000k or whatever they are, and some HPS still remaining underneath the overpasses, so I really observed them this morning. I had to do a double take on the new 3000k lights - it was dark and rainy, and they had so much green tint they almost looked like the old MV.

Don't even get me started on things NYC does, but good or bad, lights have always been NYC's staple. What is underappreciated now may seem cool decades later.

Yes, the primary difference between the two in terms of output is that the globe over the HPS bulb makes the source size larger, which in theory reduces glare. We could have put a similar diffuser over the LEDs. HPS though is still awful for actually seeing stuff, even with the brightness.

Yeah, and these globes were often dirty inside and out, and reflector housing being dirty too, and perhaps this is why I remembered these HPS lights being a lot dimmer than LEDs.

 

[John_Galt]

This thread would have been pruned to a dozen posts a month ago. Glad to see some impassioned discussion that is still somehow sticking to the major topic at hand. I appreciate all the links, I've been in need of some *Light* reading.

-t.selective yellow enjoyer

 

[Magio]

This thread would have been pruned to a dozen posts a month ago. Glad to see some impassioned discussion that is still somehow sticking to the major topic at hand. I appreciate all the links, I've been in need of some *Light* reading.

-t.selective yellow enjoyer

What happened to Virgil and the other guy, Alaric something? Seems they havent been around to overly moderate the forum in a while?

 

[eggsalad]

What happened to Virgil and the other guy, Alaric something? Seems they havent been around to overly moderate the forum in a while?

If anybody knows, nobody is saying.

 

[EJR]

What happened to Virgil and the other guy, Alaric something? Seems they havent been around to overly moderate the forum in a while?

They no longer have moderator statuses. And from what another member mentioned in another thread, supposedly there was "some disagreement about how this subforum was moderated...". No details on this have been provided so if I had to guess, I'd say Alaric or Virgil probably aren't coming back unfortunately.

 

[kingofwylietx]

They will be missed, both were very knowledgeable and helpful to those that would actually listen.

 

[bykfixer]

What happened to Virgil and the other guy, Alaric something?

They read the world was round and set out on a venture to prove it.
Now one of two things will result. If it's indeed round they'll be back someday. If it's not they'll fall off the edge at some point.

 

[alpg88]

It's ok, the forum will be just fine, with some knowledge they brought a lot of toxicity, arrogance and disdain, not to mention harassing members via PMs. Good riddance i'd say.

 

[bykfixer]

I would have been just fine living the rest of my life not seeing that post.

 

[ScaryFatKidGT]

3500-5000k for me

The absolute worst is 6000-6500k that almost every manufacturer uses...