Japanese Vs Chinese Eneloop Cycle Testing Results

[ChibiM]

Thanks for the tests PowerMeUp.
now it would also be interesting to see what their counter parts (other brands) have to offer. Although I don`t really like the idea that there are lesser quality eneloops on the market. I don`t worry too much myself for not getting Japanese eneloops

Looking forward to more testing.

on a side note, Im a little curious why the Japanese cells have even more cycles than your earlier tests.

 

[tripplec]

So I wonder who if anyone new in the NiMH LSD market which might be using Eneloop tech and spec's on their batteries. Something from someone must be out there using the Eneloop patent technology in this space.

 

[Rosoku Chikara]

So I wonder who if anyone new in the NiMH LSD market which might be using Eneloop tech and spec's on their batteries. Something from someone must be out there using the Eneloop patent technology in this space.

While anything is possible, I feel it is unlikely that there are any other technology ownership/licensing arrangements, other than that which may (or may not) exist between Panasonic and FDK. (I mention "may not," because it is possible that even Panasonic owns no rights to the technology, and that any and all "real" Eneloops are only made by FDK. Under such circumstances, Panasonic would be forced to purchase cells from FDK "forever," if they wanted the "real thing." FKD, however, could easily be bound by a non-disclosure agreement which prevents them from telling the world that Panasonic doesn't own the technology.)

So based on the above, I would say you only have two choices: Panasonic ("Made in Japan") and FDK. I would say that comparing HKJ's testing results using his battery comparator, indicate quite clearly that the following two brands of cells are in fact the "same" cell:

http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/CommonAAcomparator.php

Here is a comparison chart for Panasonic - Eneloop AA BK-3MCC 1900mAh (White) vs. FDK- Fujitsu AA HR-3UTA 1900mAh (White):



Here is a chart for Panasonic - Eneloop AA BK-3HCC 2450mAh (Black) vs. FDK - Fujitsu AA HR-3UTHA 2400mAh (Silver):


I suspect that the greater variation between the "black" (XX or Pro) and "silver" high capacity cells, probably stems from the fact that the increased capacity pushes the technology near it limits, and "pushing the envelop" in such a manner results in greater variation between both cells within the same "batch" and between "batches" of cells. (You will also notice that FDK has elected to rate theirs at "only" 2400mAh.)

In the case of the while or regular cells, the graphs are uncannily close, and demonstrate to my satisfaction that they are indeed the same cell.

 

[Richwouldnt]

Not sure of the technology but the black wrapper Amazon Basics high capacity LSD NiMH batteries look to have the same negative end and positive tip as my Sanyo Eneloop XX batteries do and they are listed as made in Japan and charged using solar energy. IIRC these are the same claims I have seen for Eneloops and the parts stampings and finish appear to be identical except for wrapper details and information stamped on them. I wish someone with proper equipment would do a comparison of Japanese made Amazon Basics NiMH batteries and Japanese Eneloops, both regular and high capacity versions.

 

[Rosoku Chikara]

...Not sure of the technology but the black wrapper Amazon Basics...appear to be identical...<snip>

My post was referring to who else (if anyone else) might have access to the "real" Sanyo Eneloop technology. As far as OEM packaging, however, I believe FDK has been fairly aggressive, and to my knowledge remains fairly aggressive, in their efforts to sell their product under a variety of brands...

CPF branded "Eneloops" anyone? (I believe such a deal could easily be made, but prices are probably much higher than what any of us would prefer, and minimum quantities would likely be quite large.)

 

[Power Me Up]

Thanks for the tests PowerMeUp.
now it would also be interesting to see what their counter parts (other brands) have to offer.

I previously did a test on a pair of Ikea Ladda cells:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...ccelerated-Cycle-Testing&highlight=ikea+ladda

Although I don`t really like the idea that there are lesser quality eneloops on the market. I don`t worry too much myself for not getting Japanese eneloops

As long as you're able to get them and are willing to sell them to the rest of us, we should be OK! ;-)

Looking forward to more testing.

Working on it!

on a side note, Im a little curious why the Japanese cells have even more cycles than your earlier tests.

I think that the most likely reason is that this testing was done over winter, compared to the previous test being done over the heat of summer.

The test method was also slightly different - with the previous test, I was discharging into a fixed resistance - the current dropped off as the cell voltage declined, so the cells were getting a slightly deeper discharge which may have also been a factor as well. There could of course be other reasons as well...

 

[jimbo231]

Hate when companies chinch to save and make more money.....:thumbsdow

 

[WalkIntoTheLight]

Unfortunately, I doubt the mass market will notice any decrease in quality. Most people don't keep cells more than a few years, and don't use them more than 100 charges. For the mass consumer, Panasonic knows it can lower quality and people won't care.

 

[Kurt_Woloch]

FDK also has a homepage for their batteries, here: http://www.fdk.com/cyber-e/pi_bt_fujitsunimh.html

I know it's written in slightly broken English, but they claim the same specs for their cells that Eneloops had (i.e. 70% charge retention after 5 years). Somewhere (but not on that page) they also claim they're the only manufacturer of LSD cells in Japan. If that's true, any LSD cells made in Japan would be rebadged FDK / "formerly known as Eneloop" cells. Of course, Fujitsu Rechargeable, in contrast to Eneloop, is not a very household name, but still their cells are available at some (at least online) retailers.

My reaction to this is that I will not specifically look for Eneloop cells anymore since any other LSD cells might be as good as the Chinese Eneloops. But I will look out for LSD cells made in Japan!

 

[BillSWPA]

Unfortunately, I doubt the mass market will notice any decrease in quality. Most people don't keep cells more than a few years, and don't use them more than 100 charges. For the mass consumer, Panasonic knows it can lower quality and people won't care.

I am new to rechargeable cells, but I wonder why this is. Are people not taking proper care of their cells? Are people assuming that their cells need to be replaced prematurely?

In my case, I was counting on the 1,000+ recharges claimed by the makers to ensure that, once I have a sizable supply, I will not need to buy cells for quite a long time.

 

[AB8XL]

I see the FDK TWICELL HR-3UTG AA's on Digikey.com

http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?mpart=HR-3UTG&vendor=935

 

[MidnightDistortions]

Unfortunately, I doubt the mass market will notice any decrease in quality. Most people don't keep cells more than a few years, and don't use them more than 100 charges. For the mass consumer, Panasonic knows it can lower quality and people won't care.

I am new to rechargeable cells, but I wonder why this is. Are people not taking proper care of their cells? Are people assuming that their cells need to be replaced prematurely?

In my case, I was counting on the 1,000+ recharges claimed by the makers to ensure that, once I have a sizable supply, I will not need to buy cells for quite a long time.

Ah the days where the batteries lasted longer than the chargers did. I have an Eveready charger (NiCad) that stopped working after 3 years, the batteries still work to this day. Then i had 2 Rayovac NiMH chargers go out on me. If i knew you could charge NiMH batteries with any chargers i would have thrown them in the Energizer charger and i might have gotten more use out of the Rayovacs before they stopped providing a decent charge.

I would expect to get 10 years out of my rechargeables based on my usage.. so far the Duracells are winning but the Energizers are not totally bad either, though on the 2500mAh AA ones they have really high self discharge. Of course even with the dumb chargers that are out there you probably wouldn't get much more then 100 charges or a couple of years out of them, especially the timer chargers. Most people don't know to drain their batteries fully, even with NiMHs.. that's probably why they managed to survive the dumb chargers i have. Thankfully the days of having to fully drain the batteries have ended with smart chargers and you can start weeding out the bad batteries from the good ones.

With that being said, it would be nice if the quality of stuff would increase over the years, but sometimes they can with the proper research. I like finding new ways to use AA batteries so as the need for AA batteries increase the higher the chance i might get a new pack of Eneloops, but hopefully the quality won't go down, i certainly don't mind paying a premium for good quality ones, i think they should offer that for those who prefer quality over quantity.

 

[SuLyMaN]

Thank you Sir for a real eye opener. This is kind of depressing for Eneloop users.

 

[BillSWPA]

FWIW I recently ordered a bunch of Eneloops, without specifying that I wanted made in Japan. The packages that arrived all said made in Japan. At least one dealer in the US is still selling Eneloops that were made in Japan.

 

[Madcow07]

FWIW I recently ordered a bunch of Eneloops, without specifying that I wanted made in Japan. The packages that arrived all said made in Japan. At least one dealer in the US is still selling Eneloops that were made in Japan.

The Eneloops Costco has currently are made in Japan. The included charger is made in China.

 

[Illum]

Are the packaging of the batteries physically different or they look identical but stamped "made in China?"

 

[Power Me Up]

Are the packaging of the batteries physically different or they look identical but stamped "made in China?"

Comparing a pack of Tropical 3rd Gen Made in Japan Eneloops to a pack of Chocolat "4th Gen" Made in China Eneloops, the packaging is similar, but they have changed the formatting on the back - things are moved around, etc. The Japanese made pack has "Made in Japan" written on it prominently. The Chinese made pack has "Made in China" in somewhat smaller print - took me a bit to find it even though I was looking for it!

Interestingly, both packs claimed that they were usable down to -20 degrees C, but the Chinese pack has a table listing usable temperature ranges - for discharging, it says -5 degrees C to 50 degrees C. I'm not sure whether that's an error in leaving the -20 C claim on the packet, or if they're just saying that -5 C is the lowest recommended temperature...

Would be interesting to run a test on both versions to see if there is a significant difference at -20 C!

 

[MidnightDistortions]

Not sure if i mentioned this, but i did notice that slightly overcharging regular NiMHs do increase mAh, not sure if that also helps with overall life but i also noticed an improvement on my crappy Energizer batteries when i purposely try to overcharge them in my La Crosse charger by taking them out and putting them back in on a relatively high mA rate. I did these on my Rayovac batteries (that are probably dying) and they increased a bit in voltage. The lowest finished charge was around 1.2 volts but i managed to get one of them from 1.2 to 1.3 volts from repeat charging.

In conclusion it does seem that the Chinese cells are more susceptible to the high resistance from repeat discharging and probably would require heavier trickle charging then the Japanese cells.

 

[WalkIntoTheLight]

I did these on my Rayovac batteries (that are probably dying) and they increased a bit in voltage. The lowest finished charge was around 1.2 volts but i managed to get one of them from 1.2 to 1.3 volts from repeat charging.

1.30 volts is still very low for a full charge. Good batteries should be over 1.50 volts when fully charged (they'll drop quickly after charging, settling at about 1.40 volts or slightly under after a few hours). Even my dying batteries charge to about 1.35 volts. The only time I've had cells charge less than that is when they really are dead (won't hold a charge for more than a few days, and won't provide more than a few milliamps of current).

 

[NoNotAgain]

Not sure if i mentioned this, but i did notice that slightly overcharging regular NiMHs do increase mAh, not sure if that also helps with overall life but i also noticed an improvement on my crappy Energizer batteries when i purposely try to overcharge them in my La Crosse charger by taking them out and putting them back in on a relatively high mA rate. I did these on my Rayovac batteries (that are probably dying) and they increased a bit in voltage. The lowest finished charge was around 1.2 volts but i managed to get one of them from 1.2 to 1.3 volts from repeat charging.

I've been able to purchase a few kits of Panasonic 4th generation Eneloops, the packs contain 10 AA and 4 AAA batteries with charger BQ-CC17. All of the packages indicate cells are made in Japan with the charger made in China.

After first use I run them thru my Maha C9000 charger and run a conditioning cycle that takes about 36 hours to run. On this charger you set the mAh cell rating and allow it to cycle the cell from full charge to full discharge then recharge. When I set the charger for a 1900 mAh cell AA version, I see the charge cycle indicate that the voltage tops out around 1.45-1.47 volts, and the discharge capacity over 2600 mAh.

I don't use the Panasonic supplied charger as I've got to a point that I don't trust idiot lights on chargers.

I know that some here don't like eBay, but I've had success purchasing from them as well as Battery Junction.

Other than a couple of my meters, I'm alkaline cell free.