LED flashlight enthusiasm seems to be waning

KITROBASKIN

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Whutz PMW?

Probably Mindless Worrying

People who are new to the scene are excited. Seems like more guests are viewing CPF than the recent past, if the numbers shown here are accurate.

Maybe back then, flashlights were like the days when Television was the three big networks and PBS, but then we started getting more offerings, then cable TV, then satellite... Perhaps we are in the heyday of plenty, but those of us who pretty much have what we need are not as fervent now. Back when I started here, it was a bit of a letdown to see people writing about being bored with current models when it was all very exciting for me.
 

Spork

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I don't know if I was ever more excited than when the original arc aaa came out. A keychain size light that took a standard battery and had regulated output. It was exciting seeing new led products come out with the promises of led having better durability and run time as they gained on incandescent. Now its just a normal thing and a single cell light can cover most anyones need.

I would say that my excitement now has been focusing on making my simple collection neutral white. I just want a quality light that works and not interested in expensive custom stuff but not going to buy the basic cheap lights from the store either. A lot of people only use their phone and don't even think about having a working flashlight around the house.
 
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mickb

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god said let there be light
man said let there by flashlights
users said let their be LED's
Flashaholics said let there be crazy Leds
Batteries left behind in space race.
flashaholics develope 12 setting light that can xray their poodle at the same time they walk it.
Users leave empire in such of the old planets 'Sensible lumens', and 'Simple UI'
 

flashy bazook

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My journey with CPF started as a professional interest 2003-2004. I was working for a manufacturer backlighting a static graphics display with failure-prone florescent lights whose heat would literally melt the solder off of other electronics in the same housing. I happened across CPF researching the then kind-of-new concept of LED backlighting. Never did implement a LED backlight for that product and left the company in late 2004, but CPF has remained.

The early days were indeed exciting as the original power LED - the Lumileds Luxeon - had been released to the world at multiple tens of dollars a pop. Previously, LED flashlights had required showerhead arrangements with their 3mm and 5mm LEDs to spit out the ~30 lumens that the Luxeon managed. Early on, you had to DIY it, haggle with a modder, or (usually) pre-order something from one of the small outfits that was messing with these exotic beasts. The pinnacle of those days for me was the Cree XR-E, which reliably put out >100 lumens on a single die without the kind of borderline-dangerous currents that Luxeons required. I still have - and marvel - at one of the short-run Alephs I bought from the 'Shoppe that's ~140 lumens on a single 123A - it's been outclassed for many years but still seems like a lot of light for something so small.

Insofar as the lack of enthusiasm, the technology adoption lifecycle is at work here, more concisely explained by the adoption curve. I started somewhere between the Innnovator and Early-Adopters phase when the technology was new and it took some effort to use it. Community knowledge was the way to go then - it was difficult-at-best to learn this stuff via more conventional sources.

I'd guesstimate that sometime in the vicinity of 2007 the early majority phase was underway. That's when you started seeing LED flashlights eating into the market share of more staid, established players. Companies like Ray-O-Vac adapted to the onslaught by releasing LED flashlights. Other companies like Maglite had to lose a lot of shelf space before being forced into innovation. Trailing this trend by about 2 years was LED lighting for general illumination (read: light bulbs). The not-so-loved CFL started migrating to the discount section of any lighting section while LED bulbs started taking over the more prime shelf space.

Seems like about 5 years ago that we entered the late majority phase. Incandescent flashlights are legitimately hard to find outside of specialty retailers and closeout shelves. I can't recall the last time I saw an incandescent mag-lite. Even the local Bass Pro Shops seems to no longer stock high-margin incandescent flashlights like the Surefire G2 / 6P.

So ... the lost off excitement seems to come with the commodotization of the technology. When you can buy it off of store shelves from every corner store, it's difficult to be as excited about the pedestrian reality of it as opposed to when it was an exotic possibility to anticipate and maybe - just maybe - experience in person someday.

Coincident with the adoption curve, the evolution of the technology seems to have reached an inflection point several years ago. First it was efficiency parity with inandescents at ~30 lumens per watt. Then it was a series of performance benchmarks - 50, 75, 100, 150, 200 lumens per watt in the lab ... all of which took some time to make it to production parts. Then it was more real-world performance benchmarks (85C binning as opposed to the laughable 35C). Then it was thermal ruggedness. But now that many of these achievements have been made in the lab and - mostly - made it to production pieces the pace of change has slowed. Theoretical maximum efficiency of any electrical lighting source is something like 300 lumens per watt; I suspect that pinnacle will never be reached outside of the lab and 250 lumens/watt wall-plug efficiency is apt to be the unicorn the industry gets close to but never realizes. More important will likely be thermal ruggedness and consistent output over a wide temperature range. And cost - always cost - since LED is still a tad more expensive than its forerunners.

An excellent post on a topic much hashed and re-hashed.

In a nutshell, if there is less interest it is because LED's have succeeded completely. No more "incans are just SO much better..." discussions.

Nobody much gets excited about desktop computers either, for similar reasons, if you want one, you already have one (or more) that are perfectly adequate. So you focus more on other characteristics, such as portability (like, you buy new smart phones which are essentially miniature connected computers).

One thing to note, batteries haven't actually kept up with the LED progress curve. So there is a kind of limiting factor for flashlights (similar to electric cars for yet another analogy). Range anxiety in electric cars, (or very expensive cars with very heavy battery packs), runtime anxiety in flashlights that boast of big lumen output.

So well performing LED lights at quite cheap prices easily available, combined with not much progress on battery tech, well, there we are.
 

Lynx_Arc

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An excellent post on a topic much hashed and re-hashed.

In a nutshell, if there is less interest it is because LED's have succeeded completely. No more "incans are just SO much better..." discussions.

Nobody much gets excited about desktop computers either, for similar reasons, if you want one, you already have one (or more) that are perfectly adequate. So you focus more on other characteristics, such as portability (like, you buy new smart phones which are essentially miniature connected computers).

One thing to note, batteries haven't actually kept up with the LED progress curve. So there is a kind of limiting factor for flashlights (similar to electric cars for yet another analogy). Range anxiety in electric cars, (or very expensive cars with very heavy battery packs), runtime anxiety in flashlights that boast of big lumen output.

So well performing LED lights at quite cheap prices easily available, combined with not much progress on battery tech, well, there we are.
battery tech has made a lot of progress if you consider around the time of the first 5mm LEDs and even luxeons we had mostly lead acid and nicad batteries that today are now replaced in most lighting by LSD nimh and lithium ion batteries. I think one thing that makes the battery situation less noticeable is that LEDs have changed considerably more and faster over time while batteries seem to be a more gradual thing waiting for the next chemistry to arrive and hopefully supplant lithium ions with considerably better performance.
 

recDNA

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Jun 2, 2009
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I agree interest is waning however I think it is because nothing new knocks my socks off. Been that way for 2 years. Overready is great but sorry too expensive for me. HDS is nice but I'd prefer 1.5 amps at 3 volts so underpowered. Zebralight is the opposite extreme - too much power so output drops down in seconds.

If anyone invents a way to get good throw from a 0.9 inch head with a CR123A body that is comfortable to pocket yet enough spill to be useful at short range I would be excited. Surefire comes the closest but I hate the greenish tint and I find the head too wide to comfortably carry in my pocket.
 

markr6

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Things just got too crazy too fast. Too much focus was placed on hitting a certain number at whatever cost. 10 seconds before drop down? Sure why not.

Others going to big lumens are fine with me as long as they have plenty of other modes with reasonable runtimes. I don't have to use the "turbo" mode or whatever they call it. Zebralight is a good example. If their latest and greatest does 1500lm for 15 seconds, but lower levels can do 200, 600, 800 etc lumens for decent runtimes, fine.

Just don't give me a light that does 1500lm for a few seconds, then a few more modes with the next highest being 400lm.

Someone already mentioned focusing on other aspects like UI, tint, reliability, etc. so I won't get into that.
 

recDNA

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Things just got too crazy too fast. Too much focus was placed on hitting a certain number at whatever cost. 10 seconds before drop down? Sure why not.

Others going to big lumens are fine with me as long as they have plenty of other modes with reasonable runtimes. I don't have to use the "turbo" mode or whatever they call it. Zebralight is a good example. If their latest and greatest does 1500lm for 15 seconds, but lower levels can do 200, 600, 800 etc lumens for decent runtimes, fine.

Just don't give me a light that does 1500lm for a few seconds, then a few more modes with the next highest being 400lm.

Someone already mentioned focusing on other aspects like UI, tint, reliability, etc. so I won't get into that.
Ya my fav ui is magnetic infinite adjustment but apparently gone forever.
 

Stream

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Others going to big lumens are fine with me as long as they have plenty of other modes with reasonable runtimes. I don't have to use the "turbo" mode or whatever they call it. Zebralight is a good example. If their latest and greatest does 1500lm for 15 seconds, but lower levels can do 200, 600, 800 etc lumens for decent runtimes, fine.

Just don't give me a light that does 1500lm for a few seconds, then a few more modes with the next highest being 400lm.

One big advantage with the crazy high lumen lights is precisely that they get great runtimes on lower levels, but I agree that mode spacing is very important. I can't really think of any brand that does this better than Zebralight, insane amount of mode options but with surprisingly intuitive UI. Much better than the somewhat daunting UI of the BLF A6. If only my SC62w had the same tint as my BLF A6 warm white, or even better, my Armytek Wizard Pro V3 XHP50. The Pro V3 warm white version is the closest I've come to truly falling in love with a tint, just a pity about the iffy reliability.
 

markr6

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I can't really think of any brand that does this better than Zebralight, insane amount of mode options but with surprisingly intuitive UI. Much better than the somewhat daunting UI of the BLF A6. If only my SC62w had the same tint as my BLF A6 warm white, or even better, my Armytek Wizard Pro V3 XHP50. The Pro V3 warm white version is the closest I've come to truly falling in love with a tint, just a pity about the iffy reliability.

I wish they would hire a "tint snob". Someone to sit in a room all day and just pick the best tints off each roll. Then use those in their standard lights but charge an extra 25%. Hell, I think some people here would even pay an extra 35% or more. I would. It may sound stupid, but this is the kind of stuff going on these days...not just on CPF.

And it is totally possible. I posted years ago about an SC5w OP I had. Didn't like the format, but LOVED the tint. It was literally identical to my L10C w/ Nichia 219B 4500K. A perfect tint which I called "gray"...actually no tint at all...just a perfectly balanced white. No other Zebralights I've had came close.
 

Stream

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I wish they would hire a "tint snob". Someone to sit in a room all day and just pick the best tints off each roll. Then use those in their standard lights but charge an extra 25%. Hell, I think some people here would even pay an extra 35% or more. I would. It may sound stupid, but this is the kind of stuff going on these days...not just on CPF.

The funny thing is that the BLF A6 has remarkable consistency when it comes to tint. I bought four in all because I didn't know which tint I wanted (two for me, two for my brother). They consisted of a pair of neutral whites and warm whites, and the two warm whites were identical, and the two neutrals where identical to each other. Not sure how they manage that in such an affordable light. Not even the two Armytek lights I bought for seven times as much money were that consistent: there was a noticeable tint difference between the two.
 
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