LED lumens vs metal halide lumens?

[Anders Hoveland]

I have a big shop with 400 watt metal halide light fixtures. There are currently 4 of them but I need 8-10 total. Of course, the problem with that is I would be burning 3200+ watts. :duh2:

I am going to give you the unpopular advice here.
Metal halide has very poor lumen maintenance and its light output begins to drastically decrease after only 1-2 years of operation. If you want to save energy, replace the bulbs every 1-2 years, that way you could use a lower wattage fixture that would put out the same amount of light. Many people may not realize that the bulb in their MH fixture needs to be replaced, because metal halide bulbs typically do not "burn out" like an ordinary bulb, they can continue to function for many many years.

If you wanted to use 8 Metal Halide lamps to light your workspace, you would probably only need to use 200 Watt metal halide fixtures. I will point out, for anyone who is not familiar with MH lighting, that if you want to go with a lower wattage you have to get a whole new fixture with a lower wattage ballast.

Here is a more reasonable idea: replace the bulbs on the fixtures you already have, then get an additional 2 LED fixtures, and then have them on separate switches so you do not need to turn on all the MH fixtures unless you need the extra light (basically have the 2 of the MH fixtures on the same switch with the LED fixtures). I bet you will be surprised how much brighter your MH fixtures will be with new bulbs.

 

[SemiMan]

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[Al]

Same quandary as many others looking for good light at lower cost.
I've looked at "LED corn lights" as replacements for 175W MH lamped pole lights. Suppliers claim a 36W or 54W corn light will replace a 175W MH lamp, and indeed it will but at less than half of the lumen output???

 

[degarb]

Same quandary as many others looking for good light at lower cost.
I've looked at "LED corn lights" as replacements for 175W MH lamped pole lights. Suppliers claim a 36W or 54W corn light will replace a 175W MH lamp, and indeed it will but at less than half of the lumen output???

Let me weigh in. I think it depends on if you are indoors or outside. The photons inside are NOT fully absorbed by the walls, floor, and ceilings of most homes that have light color paints. The photons of a non directional work light apparently seem to bounce around, creating surprisingly high lux reading indoors per my readings. Thus, directionality of a light is less important inside. Again, the lux measurements of a non directional light will be surprisingly high, inside a light colored room. Outside, the directionality is very important, since you won't have walls, floors and ceilings that the photons will bounce around before being fully absorbed.....My other point is that lumen maintenance is NOT an issue on a task/job-site light, where a year of work is about 2,000 hours. ... So, the conventional wisdom concerning directionality and lumen maintenance, applies to street/parking/commercial/outside lighting-though is seldom qualified as so.

I write this as a lux freak, who is keenly aware of the fovea/rods/cones of the eye. I was pleasantly surprised by the indoor lux rating of my first protected 400 watt metal halide (no winged reflector) v other lighting. 400 watt magnetic Mh 1320 lux at 5foot8 inches, my 650 watt hir lowell tota (small and light weight)=1150lux, 500 lux 500 watt halogen without glass, 300 lux 50 watt led (in 2015), 400 watt MH electronic ballasted with winged reflector is well over 2.5Xthe1320 lux of the magnetic 400 watt mh, 1000 watt mh at an impressive 130 lpw is off the charts at 5'8". I am waiting for that small lightweight 20k lumen 200lpw led lamp, before ignoring the indoor benefit of the initial, non-directional 200,000ish lumens I can create with my 1000 + 600 watt unprotected (not recommended since I couldn't find a protected 600 watt mh replacement bulb after being lured by low price of the 600 watt grow/worklight) MH work lights on one household circuit.

 

[cdrake261]

My vote is the Cree CXB3590.... 6500-18000 lm for under 150 watts...

http://www.cree.com/LED-Components-and-Modules/Products/XLamp/Arrays-NonDirectional/XLamp-CXB3590

 

[flexy123]

CREE CXB3590 is incredibly effective, I just did some calculations and looked at stats, this is how I also got to this thread

As compared to some older CREE CXB like the CXB2530, the CXB3590 has 55 lm/W MORE..but it also have significantly more lm/W compared to any others, like Bridgelux Vero etc.

You will likely drive a CXB3590 36V anywhere from 800mA to 1750mA, although you could also drive it super-low, like at 500ma

At 500mA, 18W, it actually has 200lm/W. (4000 lms)
at 800mA, 28.8W it has about 190lm/W (5600 lms)
at 1400mA, 50W it has about 172lm/W (8395 lms)
at 1750mA, 63W about 164lm/W (~10,000 lms)

for each one module

(as any LED they get less efficient with higher wattage)

 

[degarb]

CREE CXB3590 is incredibly effective, I just did some calculations and looked at stats, this is how I also got to this thread

As compared to some older CREE CXB like the CXB2530, the CXB3590 has 55 lm/W MORE..but it also have significantly more lm/W compared to any others, like Bridgelux Vero etc.

You will likely drive a CXB3590 36V anywhere from 800mA to 1750mA, although you could also drive it super-low, like at 500ma

At 500mA, 18W, it actually has 200lm/W. (4000 lms)
at 800mA, 28.8W it has about 190lm/W (5600 lms)
at 1400mA, 50W it has about 172lm/W (8395 lms)
at 1750mA, 63W about 164lm/W (~10,000 lms)

for each one module

(as any LED they get less efficient with higher wattage)

At 130 lpw lamp level, high power led become interesting. At 200 lpw ll, they come alive. Though, with fan cooling, their need for expensive, huge, heavy, impractical Heat sinks, may be mitigated. As I found, a good reflector and a good 600 or 1000 watt, 130 lpw PROTECTED!!! MH electronic ballsted is light weight and practical as a work light on an aluminum stand. My 500 watt led is too heavy to raise same stand over 3.5 foot. Stay away from 600 watt, as no after market, protected bulbs. The Philips all start is a beautiful spec sheet mh 320 watt bulb that people like. Me, I prefer 120,000 lumens per room at highest efficiency possible. I hate my 500 watt 30k china led, that they lie and say is 50k; I tolerate with apathy my winged electronic ballsted 400 (as I do the hang a lights),; I like the amount of ligyt-think barely passible, the 80k lumen 8k lux at 5'8"-of my unprotected 600 (which I fear) ; I LOVE MY 1000 watt MH. I also hate my 200 watt led, as it is too heavy and too dim. I think my small dim 50watt and 100watt ok for their price and size. My 20 watt led, dimmer than my headlamps and useless. Retired all my halogens as planters. I laugh at the home depot selection of work lights. I still think the Lowel Tota 23k 650 halogen work light is bright for the size and weight, while fragile and hot enough to cook dinner over.

The cxa 3590 looks to me as the turning point for the LED commercial/worklight class. Price, Baby, is the hurdle; as is getting closer to 200 lpw for heat sink mitigation.

Now, I have just stumbled on http://www.cree.com/News-and-Events...eries-to-Deliver-58-Percent-Efficacy-Increase this article looks like it was written by someone math deficient. We need well over 100k lumens to match the 1000watt MH with a Good, well designed reflector (assuming lumen maintenance is nor a factor, as it is not for a work light). This light has my attention!

There is another cree announcement of a small deck/home light of 145watt 20k lumens over 130 lpw, that raised my interest! : http://lighting.cree.com/products/outdoor/canopy-and-soffit/cpy-series

I also own two Lithuania 150 watt MH, whose efficiency is a joke, as is the pitiful attempt at a reflector. The sad part, is this light is still being conned at $700 at some lighting vendors. So, I can see why people will say the lux per lumen of led is better than MH. In a flashlight, the reflector is just as important as the emitter: the lumen distribution must overlay with the rods and cones of the eye, or the extra lumens are wasted-more or less.

 

[cdrake261]

CREE CXB3590 is incredibly effective, I just did some calculations and looked at stats, this is how I also got to this thread

As compared to some older CREE CXB like the CXB2530, the CXB3590 has 55 lm/W MORE..but it also have significantly more lm/W compared to any others, like Bridgelux Vero etc.

You will likely drive a CXB3590 36V anywhere from 800mA to 1750mA, although you could also drive it super-low, like at 500ma

At 500mA, 18W, it actually has 200lm/W. (4000 lms)
at 800mA, 28.8W it has about 190lm/W (5600 lms)
at 1400mA, 50W it has about 172lm/W (8395 lms)
at 1750mA, 63W about 164lm/W (~10,000 lms)

for each one module

(as any LED they get less efficient with higher wattage)

The CXA3590 is rated to max out around 11,000 lumens and the CXB3590 is rated to max out around 18,000 lumens. Wondered what kind of heatsink I would need to have, but would make a killer outside light to light my driveway vs the MH I got burning up the electric bill

 

[lumen aeternum]

CREE CXB3590 is incredibly effective, I just did some calculations and looked at stats, this is how I also got to this thread

As compared to some older CREE CXB like the CXB2530, the CXB3590 has 55 lm/W MORE..but it also have significantly more lm/W compared to any others, like Bridgelux Vero etc.

You will likely drive a CXB3590 36V anywhere from 800mA to 1750mA, although you could also drive it super-low, like at 500ma

At 500mA, 18W, it actually has 200lm/W. (4000 lms)
at 800mA, 28.8W it has about 190lm/W (5600 lms)
at 1400mA, 50W it has about 172lm/W (8395 lms)
at 1750mA, 63W about 164lm/W (~10,000 lms)

for each one module

(as any LED they get less efficient with higher wattage)

So where do I go to buy a fixture with this & a control to select different brightness levels?

 

[golfngator]

Most LED hi bays come with a 0-10V dimmable driver to control light levels. I am a manufacturers rep that does lighting for a living. A lot goes into suggesting a replacement for a 400W MH fixture. Mounting height is a big determining factor. Are you happy with current light levels and just want to save energy? I have replaced 400W fixtures with anywhere from 13000 lumen fixtures all the way up to 26000 lumen versions. You have to remember delivered lumens as a LED is directional where as your traditional high bay has a lot of light lost in the reflector itself

 

[ThomasTedsmall]

LED lumens vs metal halide lumens

Yes, thats true but Ill be able to replicate sunrise and sunset with the actinics. I can always change one of the actinics to a daylight when the halide bulb burns out. Can anyone list some pros and cons of each set up?

 

[beatus]

LED has been much cheaper than before, and I believe that you can find this solution now ok, you can find quite a lot of such light in Amazon.

I have a big shop with 400 watt metal halide light fixtures. There are currently 4 of them but I need 8-10 total. Of course, the problem with that is I would be burning 3200+ watts. :duh2:

I've been looking into LED replacements, or converting some older fixtures to LED. All the conversions I can find claim a 100-120 watt LED with less than 12,000 lumens is a replacement for a 400 watt metal halide with 36,000 lumens.

Is that just because more of the light is lost in the reflector with the big MH bulb? Would they actually put the same amount of lumens on the floor? Here is an example:


I know they won't be cheap but if I could do the same with 120 watts as 400 watts I would save about $0.25 per hour in electricity!

 

[JacksonXI]

LED has been much cheaper than before, and I believe that you can find this solution now ok, you can find quite a lot of such light in Amazon.

I just remodify my garage and need the 400 watt metal halide LED replacement kit. I always heard that metal halide has lower lumen because of its lower lighting efficiency. After the google search, I eventually have these two alternatives:

https://www.1000bulbs.com/category/400w-mh-equal-led-retrofit-for-hid-high-and-low-bay/

http://www.ledsmaster.com/400-Watt-Metal-Halide-LED-Replacement-298.html

Lunera is seems a well-known brand, however I don't know how to select the number of the LED replacement kit for 400W MH.. any ideas?

 

[ssanasisredna]

I just remodify my garage and need the 400 watt metal halide LED replacement kit. I always heard that metal halide has lower lumen because of its lower lighting efficiency. After the google search, I eventually have these two alternatives:

https://www.1000bulbs.com/category/400w-mh-equal-led-retrofit-for-hid-high-and-low-bay/

http://www.ledsmaster.com/400-Watt-Metal-Halide-LED-Replacement-298.html

Lunera is seems a well-known brand, however I don't know how to select the number of the LED replacement kit for 400W MH.. any ideas?

15-16000 lumens is NOT a 400W MH replacement which will typically put 30,000+ lumens down. Even at end of life, it will still be 20,000+, and the LED does decay as well, so it will be 12,000 end of life. These are not equivalent. Optics can offer some improvement, but high bays tend to light wide areas with lots of overlap between lights so light is not "lost".

 

[degarb]

15-16000 lumens is NOT a 400W MH replacement which will typically put 30,000+ lumens down. Even at end of life, it will still be 20,000+, and the LED does decay as well, so it will be 12,000 end of life. These are not equivalent. Optics can offer some improvement, but high bays tend to light wide areas with lots of overlap between lights so light is not "lost".

I think companies want to sell stuff (unnecessary upgrades) , just to be selling something. Cree is just breaking lpw on the big stuff to allow end lamp level efficiency to beat the MH. And still, the led lamps aren't getting the output possible with MH (110-130k lumens from 1000w, lamp level after losses. ) Cooling. Then there is the cost issue, which cannot be overcome by cheap Chinese knock-off. Breaking the 200 lpw, to reduce heat sink cost, would help, immensely.

[My 500 watt led isn't any where as bright as my 400watt MH. Probably 30,000 lumens v. 42000. However, I don't run thousands of hours, and for my purpose, the extra lumens are worth price of a bulb. Also, the led lamp seller lies about it doing 50,000 lumens. Color rendering is way worse than the MH.

I am looking forward to the day when I can reasonably buy a 80k + lumen lamp that will beat a 600w or 1000w MH for lamp level efficiency, and overall massive lumens.

The local hardware and paint store installed some kick butt parking lot led lights, with good color rendering and excellent brightness, just a few months ago. I wonder if bulb or lamp theft will ever be a problem. Hope they don't disappear one evening :-]

 

[FRITZHID]

I think companies want to sell stuff (unnecessary upgrades) , just to be selling something. Cree is just breaking lpw on the big stuff to allow end lamp level efficiency to beat the MH. And still, the led lamps aren't getting the output possible with MH (110-130k lumens from 1000w, lamp level after losses. ) Cooling. Then there is the cost issue, which cannot be overcome by cheap Chinese knock-off. Breaking the 200 lpw, to reduce heat sink cost, would help, immensely.

[My 500 watt led isn't any where as bright as my 400watt MH. Probably 30,000 lumens v. 42000. However, I don't run thousands of hours, and for my purpose, the extra lumens are worth price of a bulb. Also, the led lamp seller lies about it doing 50,000 lumens. Color rendering is way worse than the MH.

I am looking forward to the day when I can reasonably buy a 80k + lumen lamp that will beat a 600w or 1000w MH for lamp level efficiency, and overall massive lumens.

The local hardware and paint store installed some kick butt parking lot led lights, with good color rendering and excellent brightness, just a few months ago. I wonder if bulb or lamp theft will ever be a problem. Hope they don't disappear one evening :-]

CRI has been my biggest motivation to stick with my MH lights in work areas. i have 90 cri 100w CMH over my 2 work areas (house and garage) and three 400w MH as main lighting in my garage (1 1/2 car). i have 2 100w incan (due to be replaced with LED asap) as my standard lighting for quick work but CRI is a major factor in any of my "work" lighting. and always will be. as soon as i can get +120lm/w AND +93-97 cri at an affordable price as well as long lasting components... i'm gonna bite, until then, i'll work with tried and true lighting like MH.

 

[ssanasisredna]

I think companies want to sell stuff (unnecessary upgrades) , just to be selling something. Cree is just breaking lpw on the big stuff to allow end lamp level efficiency to beat the MH. And still, the led lamps aren't getting the output possible with MH (110-130k lumens from 1000w, lamp level after losses. ) Cooling. Then there is the cost issue, which cannot be overcome by cheap Chinese knock-off. Breaking the 200 lpw, to reduce heat sink cost, would help, immensely.

[My 500 watt led isn't any where as bright as my 400watt MH. Probably 30,000 lumens v. 42000. However, I don't run thousands of hours, and for my purpose, the extra lumens are worth price of a bulb. Also, the led lamp seller lies about it doing 50,000 lumens. Color rendering is way worse than the MH.

I am looking forward to the day when I can reasonably buy a 80k + lumen lamp that will beat a 600w or 1000w MH for lamp level efficiency, and overall massive lumens.

The local hardware and paint store installed some kick butt parking lot led lights, with good color rendering and excellent brightness, just a few months ago. I wonder if bulb or lamp theft will ever be a problem. Hope they don't disappear one evening :-]

LED efficiency is way past MH efficiency. 150LPW at the LED at reasonable drive currents and 80CRI is common place and at the big OEM level, $0.50/1000 lumens. That efficiency is well beyond any MH lamp, and when you take into account lumen maintenance and light output after even 4-5000 hours, it's not even close.

 

[ssanasisredna]

The high CRI MH bulbs are mostly in the 90-95LPW range (or less). Options for 90CRI over 250W are few these days.

LEDs are still a bit pricy, but you can buy and LED, quantity 1, 25000 lumens, >100 LPW, 90CRI from Digikey for $30. That is very competitive with MH and it will have far less light drop-off.

 

[ssanasisredna]

110-130k lumens from 1000w, lamp level after losses. ) Cooling. Then there is the cost issue, which cannot be overcome by cheap Chinese knock-off. Breaking the 200 lpw, to reduce heat sink cost, would help, immensely.

Not many are over 120K lumens, at that is at the bulb level before losses. MH fixtures are generally less efficient than LED fixtures.

 

[angerdan]

I have a big shop with 400 watt metal halide light fixtures.
There are currently 4 of them but I need 8-10 total. Of course, the problem with that is I would be burning 3200+ watts. :duh2:

I've been looking into LED replacements, or converting some older fixtures to LED.
All the conversions I can find claim a 100-120 watt LED with less than 12,000 lumens is a replacement for a 400 watt metal halide with 36,000 lumens.

Is that just because more of the light is lost in the reflector with the big MH bulb? Would they actually put the same amount of lumens on the floor? Here is an example:
myledlightingguide.com/120W_LED_Retro_Unit___12000_Lumens-details.aspx

I know they won't be cheap but if I could do the same with 120 watts as 400 watts I would save about $0.25 per hour in electricity!

With 120lm/W you would need a 300W LED floodlight. But only if the beam angle and light distribution is the same.
But you would get a much better color rendering. And instant light without 5min of heating up time.
That's the current state of the art technology with the best quality available on the market:
https://www.ledvance.com/products/p...minaires/products/ledvance-high-bay/index.jsp
https://www.ledvance.com/products/l...ay-luminaires/ledvance-high-bay-led/index.jsp

That is only an example.
I just want to know how many watts of LED is actually equivalent to metal halide?
On paper they are both right around 90lm/w, but that doesn't tell the whole story...

You have to calculate in lumens, not electric power. Power don't say how much luminous flux a light does create.

The area to light is 30x80. The lights are roughly 20 feet off the floor. The ceiling above it does not reflect light, because it is 45' to top. The walls don't reflect light either, there are 10x80 unlit storage areas on both sides. (spill from the main area lights this) The 4 fixtures I have are not close to enough.

I won't be buying any fixtures. To buy (2) 100w LEDs, for example, and install them myself would be very cheap. If it provides a comparable amount of light. If I needed 400w for the same light, then it wouldn't be worth the trouble to gain a few lumens/watt in efficiency.

Being able to save whole kilowatts here is a big big deal.

30x80m are 2400m². So 36000lm can create a illuminance of 15lx (with optimum beam angle).
An subway track in london has 150lx.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lux#Illuminance

To reach 150lx you would need at least 360000lm (would draw 3000W / 3kW).

Looking at how incredibly cheap the chinese LEDs can be I think I'm just going to buy a few in different wattages and see how they perform. Would it be very efficient to simply mount the LEDs flat with no optics/reflectors for flood lighting?

For a single 22000lm LED chip you have to pay $450, if you want a CRI better than 65.
store.yujiintl.com/collections/frontpage/products/bc-series-high-cri-high-power-cob-led-5600k-bc270h-unit-1pcs