MDs Lithium-Ion > Incandescent guide + compatability/comparison chart

[mdocod]

ahhh help

Advice needed

Just over-discharged a pair IMR 16340 while talking to FM, i didnt notice the time pass...

despite stepping down brightness on my soft start I got two imr 16340 down to, after a short 20 min rest..to measure 2.96 volts and 3.12 volts...before changing cells.

I am recharging them immediately.

do I have to trash them?
lovecpf

I want MDOCODs opinion on this, and Maybe AW as well.

FM said recharge them see if they come back..

im guessing they lost capacity but wont explode and are more tolerant to this kind of abuse.

They'll come back and probably work just fine. Don't trash em, they are safe chemistry and can handle some abuse without a major issue.

If you had say, left them in a flashlight turned on over-night, then they may have taken a very noticeable hit the next day.

See if they hold voltage and work pretty good, there's no significant danger in giving it a try.

For the record, the Emoli brand LiMn cells that I pulled from an "ebayed" Ryobi pack, were all under 2V per cell when I received the pack, and who knows how long they had been that way, they all charged up and perform right up with LuxLuthors results from his comparison test. This is the same chemistry as AWs IMR cells.

-Eric

 

[AW]

They should charge up fine with no capacity loss if they haven't stayed this low for long. Nothing bad will happen on charging them. They are safe chemistry after all.

 

[Nite]

They should charge up fine with no capacity loss if they haven't stayed this low for long. Nothing bad will happen on charging them. They are safe chemistry after all.

They'll come back and probably work just fine. Don't trash em, they are safe chemistry and can handle some abuse without a major issue.

If you had say, left them in a flashlight turned on over-night, then they may have taken a very noticeable hit the next day.

See if they hold voltage and work pretty good, there's no significant danger in giving it a try.

For the record, the Emoli brand LiMn cells that I pulled from an "ebayed" Ryobi pack, were all under 2V per cell when I received the pack, and who knows how long they had been that way, they all charged up and perform right up with LuxLuthors results from his comparison test. This is the same chemistry as AWs IMR cells.

-Eric

wow thanks you two!

just saved me 12$ or so,....

 

[Nite]

I blew several 1185s before I learned to take my time and not hurry. I'm sure that the total number of 1185s blown would fill a nice little box. Does that confirm that the Mag85 is a bad idea?

it only confirms that Not taking your time will result in a boxful of blown bulbs...

this I can confirm myself from experience. Touching a bulb during install unknowingly, or breaking it in two while pressing hard inserting it...or blowing it on two unprotected IMR 18500s are good examples of not thinking things thru.

In my opinion, 2x Protected 18500 LiCo AW cells are a better choice for a FM-1794 than a pair if Unprotected IMR 18500.

(both setups MAYBE fresh off charger and Definitely using soft start)

Several reasons.
Better runtime!
Black label lico have 33% more energy density than their IMR counterparts.
In this case the Supply from two LiCo cells is more than enough to not require IMR chemistry.
Yes, IMR is safer, but LiCo cells, PROTECTED ONES, prevent abuse of the cells and make a catastrophic failure highly unlikely unless your cells are over 3, 4 years old, damaged, etc.
Just tonight I over discharged a pair of IMR cells..it seems they will be fine, Another few minutes at 3 amps and I think theydve died for sure.

If theydve been unprotected lico idve trashed them.

good thing the light dimmed alot at 3 volts per cell

No protection circuit means less resistance, shorter length and less cost.

I wouldnt mind paying more money for a Low resistance, Hi current Protection circuit for IMR cells...my imaginary IMR PCBs would cutoff at hi and low voltages like normal AW cells, but also if temperatures got too high., like a surefire primary. However theyd reset just like all AW protected cells.

oh well, AW, FM, Myself, we cant make everything everyone can dream up to ask for.

(I can try):twothumbs
lovecpf

 

[Nite]

I just realized

a Mag85 is just a 3 C or D cell maglite modified to run a WA 1185?

Oh man im so glad I got a surefire G2 then G3 to get away from my huge maglite

why run an 1185 in a huge 3 D mag when u can do it in a SF 9P/FM2x18650

those things run on eneloops and stuff right? I wonder how much longer the runtime is....

talk about different form factors!

you can now add a WA1185 to your 2x18650 Lux, by adding fivemegas G4 sunlight for D26. It holds an 1185 in a SF head which you now have.

isnt this discussion/realization worthy of a new thread?

I am officially scared to start new threads after being berated by moderators who didnt think them worthy topics for discussion.

 

[Nite]

Question for MD

I see a trend in the charts..when using high power cells like IMR 18650 Hi power ulbs like P91, FM1794 some MN SF bulbs, will flash, but many non IMR lamps, like LF< and others, will last along time

is this because the hi power lamps let all the power through fromt he cells no matter if its 8C rate and they flash? while the lower power Lamp assemblies wont flash because they use some kind of resistor to draw less power from whatever source.

this includes I guess, something like a LF EO 3 Destroying an unprotected 14500 cell, no resistor for low current draw....

two scenarios for disaster? Perhaps related perhaps not...but I can drop a lower power lamp in and get more runtime on hi power cells that would flash a hi power lamp?

so I can carry a spare lamp or led that will work with anything D26 I have....

 

[^^Nova^^]

The lamp filament itself is the "resistor" that you are talking about. The problem (if you can call it that) with the IMR cells is their voltage does not sag as much under load as the LiCo cells. This means the bulbs receive a higher voltage with IMR than LiCo and hence blow.

This is only a problem with bulbs that are near "the edge" anyway. The lower powered ones tend not to be so close to flashing at the same voltage levels as the higher powered bulbs.

I am sure someone else can explain it better.

Cheers,
Nova

 

[mdocod]

The bulbs in those "high power" categories just happen to be bulbs that are getting driven a lot harder in these configurations for various reasons all combined....

Easiest example to explain is the P91..

If you are designing a lamp with a 2.5A load for use with 3xCR123 primary cells, you would do some discharge tests and realize pretty quickly that the lamp you will be designing will be operating primarily in the ~6-6.6V range. The cells pretty much immediately fall on their face into the ~2-2.2V per cell range. So you design the lamp to run acceptably "hard" at that drive level. SF chose a ~30hr lamp life.

Take the same lamp, drive it on a pair of IMR18650s, they will start at ~8V (4V per cell) into this load due to their insanely low internal resistance. 30hr bulb life is diminished to ~1-5 hours on paper, which is all insta-flash range.

The 1794 was probably just designed to really get the most out of more compact configurations. It burns with authority on a pair of IMR16340s. Building a bulb that runs strong on really small cells while still surviving big cells is pretty much impossible, it'll always be a tradeoff.

----

Now lets look at why those low power bulbs don't have a problem with IMR cells..

Say you are designing a bulb that runs in the ~1-1.5A range for 3xCR123s. You'll again, check the discharge behavior of the cells, and go to work. Now we see we have ~2.5V per cell to work with on average, with initial peaks ~3V. So we have to design a bulb that runs decent at ~7.5V but can handle a few moments at almost 9V on those CR123s. At this drain level, the set of 3xCR123s more closely matches the discharge rate of a pair of large li-ion (LiCo or LiMN) cells. So the bulbs designed for these configurations run similarly on both.

 

[ElectronGuru]

I decided to risk another bulb to see just how crazy IMRs are. I completely charged a trio of 26500's, let them rest overnight, then topped them off, charging all again in rapid succession. Then I put them in a 3C with a WA 1166.

, despite a full 1.5v safety margin. Poof-mazing!

 

[lctorana]

I decided to risk another bulb to see just how crazy IMRs are. I completely charged a trio of 26500's, let them rest overnight, then topped them off, charging all again in rapid succession. Then I put them in a 3C with a WA 1166.

, despite a full 1.5v safety margin. Poof-mazing!

Not amazing.

There is a very, very important point at stake here.

The LuxLuthor flashpoints are achieved with a gradual ramp-up of voltage. Capability of cold bulbs to handle the shock of voltage from cold is much less.

 

[Nite]

Not amazing.

There is a very, very important point at stake here.

The LuxLuthor flashpoints are achieved with a gradual ramp-up of voltage. Capability of cold bulbs to handle the shock of voltage from cold is much less.

I agree, use of an AW type soft starter in any light including all of mine wouldve prevented that poof..also if youdve not topped them off ..those huge cells...then it wouldve been a good real world test.

can you do it again with rested cells?

It might not blow you know...even fully charged when rested..if the margin is that great..plus itd be greater with rested cells..


still he is right about the cold and hot filament resistance..another reason to use a soft starter....

 

[ElectronGuru]

Sorry for the confusion.

The 1166 did NOT poof under normal hot-off-the charger direct drive testing (see post 181). I deliberately pushed the boundaries to see if it could be blown. Yea, weird, I know :duh2:

 

[Nite]

what kind of runtime can I get from 3x Sanyo eneloops and a strion bulb?

thanks

a single 14500 was giving me more than 32 minutes appx

 

[fivemega]

what kind of runtime can I get from 3x Sanyo eneloops and a strion bulb?

3 Sanyo Eneloops will overdrive the Strion bulb and will run just over an hour.

a single 14500 was giving me more than 32 minutes appx

Strion bulb will be slightly underdriven in this set up and current draw is lower than spec.
I prefer 3 Eneloops rather than single 14500
Single IMR 16340 (or larger) is a good set up too.

 

[Nite]

i gotta thank DM51

i didnt realize i was destroying my AAA lion cells when charging them on the WF 139 at 450mah and even worse on the pila at 600mah

they couldve exploded..i was so hung up on safe discharge rates I FORGOT ABOUT SAFE RECHARGE.

do I throw them away?

Man I keep throwing out unprotected cells, first for exceeding safe discharge on 14500 unprotected..

and now for exceeding safe charging rate on AAA 10440

if they havent exploded...theyve been damaged enough to dispose of? its for my keychain fenix...the bright three stage 45$ unit.

this cell was also discharged to 3.10 volts, then recharged at 600 or 450 mah a few times.

Maybe I should use disposables in that, or buy a nano charger.

opinions?

 

[Bullzeyebill]

Been using the H1499 in my FM 2X18650 TL3 light, an amazing improvement over the stock TL3 bulb. Do you think that it is pumping out more than 255 lumens, top end, your figure for 2X17500 in the TL3? Am using LiCo 18650's.

Bill

 

[mdocod]

Been using the H1499 in my FM 2X18650 TL3 light, an amazing improvement over the stock TL3 bulb. Do you think that it is pumping out more than 255 lumens, top end, your figure for 2X17500 in the TL3? Am using LiCo 18650's.

Bill

Yea, it's likely brighter, maybe around 300+ give or take

They're just numbers, don't fret em too much! It's the beam shape that is often the defining factor for how well a particular configurations performs for a particular application.

I'll take a lower powered incan on a "turbo" or "mini-turbo" head over a high power incan stuffed in a D26 module any day. Incan applications have shifted almost entirely to out-door only. So we can go back to boasting about throw IMO! I'll bet that TL-3 reaches out and touches stuff better than any D26 module you can buy.

-Eric

 

[Bullzeyebill]

Yes, for its size the H1499 in the FM 18650 TL3 is awesome. Has a sort of vertical/horizontal beam which I thought was "bad" till I used it walking the streets. The light turned so the beam is vertical give a great throw down the path, and is actually better than a so called "round beam" for this purpose. Good color too, nice and white.

Bill

 

[JCD]

Re: Mdocod's Lithium Ion>Incan guide for beginers.

Under D26 options, the runtimes for 1x 17670 and 1x IMR16340 are identical for each respective bulb option. Is that correct?

D26 configurations:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell Configuration: 1xIMR16340

Bulb Options:
LF D26 HO-4: 7W, 106 - 69 lumen in 49 minutes
G&P D26 3.7V: 8W, 118 - 72 lumen in 40 minutes
WE D26 3.7V: 8W, 114 - 69 lumen in 42 minutes
LF D26 EO-4: 9W, 122 - 70 lumen in 37 minutes
G&P D26 3.7V "DX 10W xenon": 7W, 118 - 72 lumen in 40 minut

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cell configuration: 1x17670

Bulb Options:
LF D26 HO-4: 7W, 106 - 69 lumen in 49 minutes
G&P D26 3.7V: 8W, 118 - 72 lumen in 40 minutes
WE D26 3.7V: 8W, 114 - 69 lumen in 42 minutes
LF D26 EO-4: 9W, 122 - 70 lumen in 37 minutes
G&P D26 3.7V "DX 10W xenon": 7W, 118 - 72 lumen in 40 minutes

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[cernobila]

The capacity of these two cells is way different, there must be a mistake here somewhere?!?