Minimum lux at target required to recognize a defined target?

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Genzod

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If the optic can be stabilized seriously well, the image from an 8X21 can be helpful and more can be seen at distance is what I found. Hand holding an optic is borg-like.

8x is on the border of shaky is my experience. I had a hard time with it at first, not having any prior experience with such devices. But with a little thought of what was necessary to make it work, I realized I could thereafter find the target easily.

I prefer the 3.25x25 scope, which would not only be easier to use, but has a larger exit pupil to support brighter images at night, has a larger field of view and it's very light. It also has similar performance to an 8x21, a tad better actually, and it's less than half the 76 grams of the larger, 34-37 grams.

What I did to find target on the test night was stabilize the scope in my hand while squatting, hold my right elbow with my left hand resting on my leg to dampen movement, aim at the top of the tree where there was contrast with the sky, use that edge to focus, then follow it down to the trunk where I knew the blaze was. I moved back from naked eye maximal range of 38 meters 2 meters at a time, so as to reduce brightness incrementally and be certain of the interval where I do lose it due only to insufficient lux.

This wouldn't be the procedure in the forest while running of course, unless I was really stuck in a lost situation. I would be using more than 1.7x minimal required lux to search a certain range for targets and the optic would be bio-mechanically grafted into my skull in Borg-like fashion for improved stability. The minimal search of the test night was just to confirm the predictive math I was using.

So did you find my trademark 'brow beating' pleasurable and validating? First one is always free. :D


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KITROBASKIN

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Some of us always carry phone/GPS and have pre-informed 'Home Base' of our intentions, just in case a bailout survival situation evolves as a result of trying to remove an optical implant while gliding through gale force winds looking for little white thingies.
 

Genzod

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Some of us always carry phone/GPS and have pre-informed 'Home Base' of our intentions, just in case a bailout survival situation evolves as a result of trying to remove an optical implant while gliding through gale force winds looking for little white thingies.

https://i.imgflip.com/22j4eg.jpg

Most of these "little white thingies" are easily seen every 30-50 meters with my headlamp, most of the time. I don't really need to "search" for blazes, so to speak. But then, I either wander off the trail, come to a trailhead (road) and the trail picks up someplace else along the road, or I enter wilderness area and the markers are spaced 0.1-0.25 miles apart. When I get to a point I'm wondering if I've gone off trail, I need to look far down trail for a blaze to save myself a lot of time backtracking. So then I stop, pull out the cannon and if necessary, the scope and conduct a search. It's not something I'm really juggling with all the time.

But the image of running (sometimes gliding) with scope and hand held, pack in tow, gale force winds blowing through my hair does sort of look kind of funny.
 
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KITROBASKIN

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Been communicating with Genzod via PM and wanted to say that his objective is more clear now. He was able to distill his work for an experiential mind like mine. And he was patient when I kept on countering. Chasing ever bigger lumen counts in a flashlight is not going to solve real-world challenges but it is a lot of fun for some members.
 

Genzod

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Been communicating with Genzod via PM and wanted to say that his objective is more clear now. He was able to distill his work for an experiential mind like mine. And he was patient when I kept on countering. Chasing ever bigger lumen counts in a flashlight is not going to solve real-world challenges but it is a lot of fun for some members.

I want you to know I appreciate your vote of confidence. I'm really only after the truth, and I love to share the truth with others once I've confirmed it.

I'm pretty much a light noob. I know so little about the technical aspects of light and flashlights, but I'm trying hard to get at the truth that will help me accomplish my goals and solve my problems which in turn will perhaps eventually help other's as well. It is fun to discover what is true, what predicts and what works. It is even more fun and pleasant when someone recognizes the fact that that is what I'm really all about and encourages others to join the adventure.
 
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Genzod

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Been communicating with Genzod via PM and wanted to say that his objective is more clear now. He was able to distill his work for an experiential mind like mine. And he was patient when I kept on countering. Chasing ever bigger lumen counts in a flashlight is not going to solve real-world challenges but it is a lot of fun for some members.

I'm not sure I understand the relevance of the last part of your comment. What exactly is lumen chasing, and how are you connecting that here?
 

KITROBASKIN

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Your objective is to be effectively efficient. Others here are having fun and do not care how portable or lightweight their gear is, or if it meets a minimum standard for the job at hand. A person like myself, prefers to get the flashlight and see if it works for the task. If it doesn't, get another! I have a pretty full spectrum of throwers and really do not use the two most powerful because they are heavier and much more power than needed for our terrain.

Also, a lot of folks here do not know that a flashlight that puts a lot of light out nearby will impair the ability to see at a distance (and those that do will sometimes choose to get a light that can also spit out a bunch of lumens at distance, making for a very big, quite inefficient tool). One can guess that very, very few people actually have a bonefide application for some of these blasters but they are having fun, and GOOD for them.
 
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Genzod

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Oh, and careful How you question the relevance of other's comments and don't Ever tell me to "exactly" explain anything again. Do you understand?

I certainly don't see the relevance of that comment! :thinking: Perhaps it's a threat, maybe not. Would you like to clarify that for us? I wouldn't want to read a meaning into a comment that just isn't there, after all.:rolleyes:

Requests for clarification are usually made by those of us who don't want to jump to conclusions, and would rather hear a matter fully before judging it. That's why I ask for clarification, to give yourself a chance to be fully understood. Maybe what you said was with a sense of humor and I didn't see it. Perhaps a smiley emoticon would have been in order. That usually clinches it! ;)

I didn't question the relevance of your comment. I said I did not understand the relevance of your comment. Context, context, context.

Either way, I'm not afraid of these kind of outbursts. They look kind of silly to me. I hope they eventually look kind of silly to you, if you are of similar age as myself, and have had plenty of time to learn otherwise.

Now please, can we all get back to the subject at hand, not me, not the validity of the enormous number of visits to the thread, not whether I seem to be talking to myself, not the impracticality of my endeavor or the seriousness to which I am pursuing it? And certainly not whether or not I am going through a middle age crisis, as if that had anything to do with it?

I have much more to explore here. I have yet to experimentally confirm the answer to the question ssanasisredna posed about albedo. I have a flashlight with specs in mind that I would like to find and test out with the predictive power of the mathematical tool I developed. I have yet to adapt this formula to all sorts of targets as I have with al sorts of eyes. Isn't that valuable and relevant to any of you?

Yet some of you, not all, just a few, a small few, seem intent to disrupt the forum with dismissals or outbursts designed to provoke off topic arguments and have moderators lock down this thread. If you don't have something topical, constructive and soundly documentable or experimentally demonstrable to say, and if not, at least nice or funny or thankful like some who have made this thread an enjoyable experience for me and others, it probably isn't worth saying at all.
 
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Genzod

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THE PURPOSE OF THIS THREAD


In engineering, students learn mathematical techniques for designing systems, among other things, such as language skills and laboratory procedure, so they can be proficiently astute to qualify for employment at engineering firms which are often contracted by the government sometimes for contracts worth tens of billions of dollars to design a system or vehicle. This is done on "paper" first, utilizing computers mainly, perhaps produce some small scale models (if aerodynamic data is required when computational methods aren't satisfactory), then they build a prototype, flight test it, and work the "bugs" out. When the vehicle is ready, it is usually compared with the product of a rival firm who was tasked with meeting the same design criteria. The products are compared, a decision is made, and an order is placed by the government for 100-200 or so of these vehicles to be delivered over the space of a decade or two for around $140 million per unit.

They do not build a prototype, fail, build another, fail and keep iterating this irrationally expensive process until they get it right. There are much smarter ways of designing costly systems than the tried and true backwoods method of trial and error.

My mother had a dog once that used trial and error to find the center of gravity of a plumber's plunger while carried in his mouth, his mouth of course only inches away from the rubber plunger. My mother, bless her heart, was a farm girl from a foreign country, and she said "look how smart he is!" Saying nothing, I thought, "mom, he has the business end of a toilet plunger in his mouth." :laughing:

Scientists take the time and trouble to develop the mathematical tools for engineers, so they can have the tools to build these expensive systems on paper first. Once the tool is developed, it is tested and confirmed by peer review by likewise intelligent scientists. These sophisticated shortcuts save people a lot of time and trouble and render the design process much easier, quicker and less costly. This process was demonstrated to members here (in a layman sort of way) for the mathematical tool that governs determining throw for a flashlight with an aspheric lens, right here at CPF.

Of course our pocket books are much smaller than the government's, and certain people might prefer not to accumulate a $1000-2000 arsenal of flashlights in an expensive trial and error process.

I am developing a mathematical tool that can be adapted to most eyes and most targets, so that when you get a hankering for a flashlight, you can use the tool to determine the spec of a flashlight that will meet your visual and targeting needs without having to procure a flashlight hobbyist's arsenal of expensive flashlights and then not be able to send your son or daughter to college so he/she can become as smart as a certain handsome, sophisticated, worldy sort of fellow contributing to this forum. :cool:

I realize this procedure is unfamiliar to some people. It might even feel intimidating and rub these persons' grain the wrong way, even to the point of eliciting a narcissistically snubbing and dismissive response. Or, one might be hard pressed to seek some kind of self-validation for they way they approach the selection process for a flashlight, and thinking one did not obtain it, might lash out in fear at the thing or person he doesn't understand.

I am an engineer with a high level of mathematical expertise. What I have been doing is the job of a scientist developing a tool that I will ultimately use to design and fulfill my flashlight needs. If others are lucky, they will stumble across my tool and save themselves a lot of money and hassle choosing a flashlight. Provided firstly, that those with validation natured issues don't disrupt the forum with their kamikaze technique for flaming the thread and sinking it by moving moderators to lock it before it is completed.

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If anyone has such issues, and either feels the need to snobbishly dismiss this strange, alien approach or at least obtain validation before able to return the favor and validate me or it, this is not the place to work out or vent these turbulent, unpleasant emotions. This thread is about flashlights. It is not about psychology or spirituality or your personal emotional needs. Please find a support group and get a group hug. :grouphug:

If you wish to vent pent up emotions, perhaps you could find the comment section of a Trump news story. He seems to be the popular beating post now. Enjoy. ;)

If you have an expensive smartphone with GPS and monthly service contract and prefer to use it for backwoods navigation, trying to talk me into doing that is beside the point of this thread. I have patiently explained to one such person why that is not going to work for me.

If you use maps and a compass in high winds on mountain ridges, feel free to rip your map to shreds.

If you buy a $1000-2000 arsenal of flashlights and try them out one at a time to select what works best for you, that's your hobby, not mine.

If you think I'm having a midlife crisis, perhaps you can use your psychiatry doctorate to prescribe me the appropriate meds. I obviously need some help.:rolleyes:

If this thread is unpleasant for you or is hopelessly irrelevant in your opinion :thinking::shrug:, I might offer that you spare yourself the click and do something you find more interesting or satisfying.

This thread's purpose is not here for validating people or recognizing different approaches. It is not about "you" or "me" or "them" and the ways people prefer to do things or how they have fun.

And this comment is not here to start a tangential discussion about this point and such issues. It is here to end them. Such discussions are certainly irrelevant and off topic in this thread, and I hope that will finally be "understood" by those to whom it pertains.:D






 
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quinlag

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Project:
Determine height of building.
How:
Using known weight of a falling object.
Tools:
Hygrometer, stopwatch, steel ball.

Proceedure:
Measure density of air using hygrometer, call city to block street, drop ball from top of building, measure time to impact, use correct equation to determine height of building.

All the students turned in their paper with the correct answer but there was one student who had the correct answer with no math.
The instructor asked if he cheated; he said no, I just went to the office of the building engineer, knocked on the door and said," I'll give you this hygrometer if you'll tell me how tall the building is.

:popcorn:
 
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Greta

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This thread is now beyond the limit of childish comments, bickering, trolling and baiting. It is not worth trying to clean up and I'm not into trying to herd cats today.

Thread closed.
 
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