Philips announces a new but strange looking bulb

LEDninja

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Home Depot's Canadian website is now listing:
Philips LED 10.5W A-Line Slim Style Soft White CAD$$11.97
Philips LED 10.5W A-Line Slim Style Daylight CAD$11.97
Philips LED 8W A-Line Slim Style Soft White CAD$9.97
Philips LED 7W A-Line Slim Style Daylight CAD$9.97

A former colleague of mine got one and sent me this e-mail:
Using now a Philips 10.5W of this (ping pong paddle look) LED bulb and it lit up really bright.
Lo me gusta!
 

PhotonWrangler

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I just picked up one of the new 60w equivalent paddle bulbs at a local HD for around nine bucks. Not sure where I'm going to use it yet but I did a quick power-up test and I'm pleased with the brightness and color.
 

slebans

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It's a shame too, because the one thing that consumers most associate with LEDs is that they last forever. These bulbs are going to destroy that reputation. And if a consumer no longer has confidence in the lifetime of an LED, then why pay $10-15 for one when I could get a CFL that costs only $1 and actually lasts as long as it says it does?

From my point of view, the initial expectation of 25-50K hour lifetime was never popular with the manufacturers. Too costly from a design and warranty perspective. I believe they would prefer 10K hours - citing CFL as a benchmark.

There are big changes coming to LED bulb pricing. Sales volumes are finally reaching large manufacturing economies of scale, a large portion of the initial capital expenditures required to build/retrofit manufacturing lines has been recovered and China has ended wide scale manufacturing CFL subsidies.

If China applies the prior CFL manufacturing subsidy dollars to LED bulbs and local government/power companies continue with their LED subsidies then we could soon reach a situation where LED bulbs cost less than CFL bulbs. If local governments/power companies remove any CFL subsidies then I would bet we see parity between a small range of CFL and LED bulbs within 12 months.


As a point of interest, 40 watt equivalent LED bulbs are selling at retail for less than $2.49 US in China.
 

Dave_H

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Home Depot's Canadian website is now listing: Philips LED 10.5W A-Line Slim Style Soft White CAD$$11.97 Philips LED 10.5W A-Line Slim Style Daylight CAD$11.97 Philips LED 8W A-Line Slim Style Soft White CAD$9.97 Philips LED 7W A-Line Slim Style Daylight CAD$9.97 A former colleague of mine got one and sent me this e-mail: Using now a Philips 10.5W of this (ping pong paddle look) LED bulb and it lit up really bright. Lo me gusta!
I noticed HD Canada carrying these a few months back. Bought one of the cool white 40W. Not bad, lots of light for the power. I put one on one of those 3-stage touch dimmers, which worked well (power meter showed 3-5-7W with corresponding brightness). Also, Home Hardware in Canada is selling the 60W version for around $12.50. Dave
 

PhotonWrangler

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I just conducted a quick test on RFI emitted from various bulbs around the house. For my test I used a handheld AM radio tuned to an empty spot at the low end of the broadcast band, 520khz. I then held the radio close to various bulbs to see which ones created the most racket. Here's what I found -

CFLs - some 120hz hum
Cree 60w equivalent - LOUD 120hz hum! This probably correlates to the slightly visible flicker under some conditions.
Cree 75 & 100w equivalents - much less hum than the 60w, about the same as the CFLs I tested.
Ecosmart 60w - quiet except for one bulb that emitted a slight 120hz hum. Probably losing it's main filter cap.
Philips 60w "paddle" bulb - quiet
Philips 75w alien head bulb - quiet
Philips 100w alien head bulb - quiet
Philips L-Prize bulb - quiet

We've seen from other reports that Philips generally does a better job of filtering, but Cree initially won the race for the lowest price decent bulb so this is where the design compromises show up. This is not a ding against Cree - they made some smart decisions to establish their ground in the home lighting market, and their bulbs are a good value for the price.

I didn't take any high frequency RFI measurements - I'll leave that for another day.
 

Steve K

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That's not a bad technique when working with a small budget. I would suggest also sweeping the tuner through the frequency range, looking for narrow bands of emissions. The bulbs that aren't producing 60Hz and its harmonics are probably using switching power supplies, and those can be rather nasty offenders at the switching frequency, and the harmonics thereof.

I am involved in emissions testing as part of my job, and recall testing a LED light used for vehicles. The light used a switching power supply from National Semiconductor; an older design that was part of their Simple Switchers line. The designers did a good job of implementing it, but it still had very bad emissions at harmonics of the switching frequency.

The bulbs that you were testing should have all been through FCC part 15 certification, so I wouldn't expect to see them making too much noise.
 

wws944

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Photon - were any of your bulbs on dimmer circuits? I have found that the interaction of dimmers and LED bulbs can cause problems with certain bulbs. I have some older Ecosmart/LSG 40w equiv that are perfectly clean in a non-dimmer circuit, but are horrible with dimmers. In one location it was so bad, I removed the dimmer and replaced it with a simple on/off switch. (I should simply replace the bulbs. But they otherwise work well, and I like their 3000K color temp.)

My experiences with Cree and Philips mirror yours. Though the CR6 units are pretty clean.
 

StarHalo

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The Philips Slim bulbs are very popular on Amazon now, I handle more of these bulbs on a given day than any other kind of LED lighting.
 

PhotonWrangler

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Photon - were any of your bulbs on dimmer circuits? I have found that the interaction of dimmers and LED bulbs can cause problems with certain bulbs. I have some older Ecosmart/LSG 40w equiv that are perfectly clean in a non-dimmer circuit, but are horrible with dimmers. In one location it was so bad, I removed the dimmer and replaced it with a simple on/off switch. (I should simply replace the bulbs. But they otherwise work well, and I like their 3000K color temp.)

My experiences with Cree and Philips mirror yours. Though the CR6 units are pretty clean.

Nope, none of mine are on dimmers and the test fixture was a simple desk lamp.
 

idleprocess

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Friend of mine got one of the 5000K 60W equivalent bulbs and mounted it in an enclosed ceiling fan fixture ... seems to be holding up well after a few hundred hours.
 

PhotonWrangler

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I just conducted a quick test on RFI emitted from various bulbs around the house. For my test I used a handheld AM radio tuned to an empty spot at the low end of the broadcast band, 520khz. I then held the radio close to various bulbs to see which ones created the most racket. Here's what I found -

CFLs - some 120hz hum
Cree 60w equivalent - LOUD 120hz hum! This probably correlates to the slightly visible flicker under some conditions.
Cree 75 & 100w equivalents - much less hum than the 60w, about the same as the CFLs I tested.
Ecosmart 60w - quiet except for one bulb that emitted a slight 120hz hum. Probably losing it's main filter cap.
Philips 60w "paddle" bulb - quiet
Philips 75w alien head bulb - quiet
Philips 100w alien head bulb - quiet
Philips L-Prize bulb - quiet

We've seen from other reports that Philips generally does a better job of filtering, but Cree initially won the race for the lowest price decent bulb so this is where the design compromises show up. This is not a ding against Cree - they made some smart decisions to establish their ground in the home lighting market, and their bulbs are a good value for the price.

I didn't take any high frequency RFI measurements - I'll leave that for another day.

Just picked up a new Osram "Ultra LED" 60w equivalent A19 bulb at the blue DIY store for $9.98. The package says 8.5w for 800 lumens @ 2700k, no CRI stated on the package.

It has a decent tint but it produces just about the same amount of 120hz hum as the Cree 60w equivalent. This was a little disappointing so I'll probably use it in a place where I'm not constantly sitting under the light. So far Philips is still my favorite as far as little or no 120hz hum or flicker.
 

carnal

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That's not a bad technique when working with a small budget. I would suggest also sweeping the tuner through the frequency range, looking for narrow bands of emissions...

I am involved in emissions testing as part of my job, and recall testing a LED light used for vehicles.

Interesting...
Was that switching power supply emitting RF? Was it interfering with HF or VHF receivers? Or was it interfering with the anti-lock brakes or some such thing?

Oh how our lives have become SO complicated.
Still resisting the computer controlled automobile, and driving my 30 yr old MECHANICALLY timed diesel vehicle!
But OH YES, it gets 53 mi/gal!
Brian
 
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Steve K

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Interesting...
Was that switching power supply emitting RF? Was it interfering with HF or VHF receivers? Or was it interfering with the anti-lock brakes or some such thing?

Brian

It was going through standard tests; primarily aimed at meeting European Union requirements. The requirements are stringent enough that devices such as this LED light will fail the test long before they interfere with other electronics. Still, if someone places a noisy device next to a very sensitive device (like a GPS antenna), it's very easy to have problems.

Some switching power supplies just generate a lot of noise at the switching frequency (usually in the 100kHz to 1MHz range) and at many harmonics. Others produce a lot of ringing every time the switch transistor turns off, producing noise in the general ballpark of 100MHz to 500MHz.

In terms of EMC (electromagnetic compatibility), things were easier with mechanically controlled engines. However, they were fairly bad in terms of emission of pollution. They also couldn't offer a lot of the modern features. Properly designed, an electronically controlled engine can be just as reliable as a mechanical engine.
 

VegasF6

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These are deeply discounted right now, at least in my local stores for $3.97 each.
I am tempted to pick up at least half a dozen as I just moved to a new home and need quite a few. But, at the same time I can get the Cree 60W for $5.97 and I am already using them in several areas and are satisfied.
 

martinaee

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This is a brilliant analysis. This is one of the reasons that I'm staying away from the 60W equivalents and upwards for now. They are just too hot for the electrolytic capacitor to last a long time. At most, a LED bulb should not run hotter than 70 degrees measured on the outside for it realistically last the rated lifetime. Right now most 60W equivalents are running at ~80-90 degrees. That's just too high. I haven't found a good teardown of one yet, but my concern is that the lower-output bulbs are using lower temperature-rated parts to save money, so even those might have a shorter lifetime than stated.

It's a shame too, because the one thing that consumers most associate with LEDs is that they last forever. These bulbs are going to destroy that reputation. And if a consumer no longer has confidence in the lifetime of an LED, then why pay $10-15 for one when I could get a CFL that costs only $1 and actually lasts as long as it says it does?

+1 . This is what I was saying on another thread. Some of these bulbs touched at the heat sinks are literally way too hot to touch without burning yourself. Someone responded to me that the heat sink is supposed to get hot (which it is) and that engineers measure the internal heat... I'm sure they do, but there are also pre-existing form factor constraints which are forcing led tech into old dated bulb styles. This is a problem because as you say to really get the most out of led lighting tech you need GOOD heatsinking and cooling. Combine the fact that a lot of the bulbs don't have good heatsinking and that they are using a lot of cheap methods and parts to bring costs down and I too think these early mass distributed led bulbs are going to give led lighting a bad name. For totally non-enclosed lighting like closets and such most of these bulbs will probably do fine, but so many lights are enclosed and people want to use their bulbs like that.

There is also no coherency to led bulbs right now. I bought 4 Phillips led bulbs last year (the 800lm 2700k bulbs that look more or less like traditional bulbs) and those seemingly are being already phased out in favor of the weird paddle bulbs which at a glance seem way cheaper to manufacture. So now if I do want a replacement for a bulb that does go out there is no identical replacement. Not a big deal as there will probably be bulbs rated the same, but for some one as picky about lighting as myself I'd notice the difference in bulbs output/color temp/light distribution pattern.

EDIT: just read more about this paddle bulb. I was under the impression the light was emitted mainly from the center, but in fact it has 26 tiny leds emitting light around the edges. Definitely a unique design, but still I wonder if it's really dumping heat enough to last the "rated 22.8 years". I'm sure by then it would be a very sad sad looking bulb that is much dimmer and with weird color casts. Also that 22 years is for how many hours a day? Hmm...
Also not rated for enclosed fixtures.

If LED lighting is going to take off big with consumers bulbs need to be made that are totally rated for enclosed fixtures.
 
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