slowhand23
Newly Enlightened
- Joined
- Nov 3, 2008
- Messages
- 31
I just picked up a Pila IBC over the holidays. Only (3) charge cycles thus far but 4.12 on (2) new cells. Newly discharged cell went to 4.16.
Pila IBC - Charging to 4.11-4.12 - Thoughts?
- Thread starter dmanindfw
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mdocod
Flashaholic
Important to note:
The difference in charging between an IBC and a WF-139 or many others like it, is the method that the chargers use to reach a termination.
The WF-139 type chargers will often reach charging voltage in excess of 4.30V, but the cell will reach a resting voltage that is acceptable, (~4.20V). The IBC charger uses a true CV charging algorithm at the end of the charge cycle, which means that the *charging* voltage will never exceed the intended final charge voltage by any meaningful amount. Whether or not this is important is up for debate, but most li-ion cell spec sheets list CC/CV charging methods as the only recommended method for charging.
The difference in charging between an IBC and a WF-139 or many others like it, is the method that the chargers use to reach a termination.
The WF-139 type chargers will often reach charging voltage in excess of 4.30V, but the cell will reach a resting voltage that is acceptable, (~4.20V). The IBC charger uses a true CV charging algorithm at the end of the charge cycle, which means that the *charging* voltage will never exceed the intended final charge voltage by any meaningful amount. Whether or not this is important is up for debate, but most li-ion cell spec sheets list CC/CV charging methods as the only recommended method for charging.
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What kind of damage to the cells should we be looking for?[/FONT]
kitelights
Flashlight Enthusiast
You won't 'see' damage. You'll experience a shorter life of the cell.
The second post explains it quite well. Sacrificing a small amount of capacity (slightly undercharging) will greatly increase cell life, while overcharging will greatly decrease cell life. That's why termination voltages are critical. Drastically overcharging can result in fires or explosion.
This is what information on CPF is all about. If you're using a charger that overcharges, you'll simply have less use of your cells. You may never know the difference.
We see posting from WF-139 users stating their 'termination' voltages that are well within acceptable range, but as mdocod pointed out, those voltages are often the resting voltages after already having been overcharged. The damage has already been done, and maybe unknown to the user.
The second post explains it quite well. Sacrificing a small amount of capacity (slightly undercharging) will greatly increase cell life, while overcharging will greatly decrease cell life. That's why termination voltages are critical. Drastically overcharging can result in fires or explosion.
This is what information on CPF is all about. If you're using a charger that overcharges, you'll simply have less use of your cells. You may never know the difference.
We see posting from WF-139 users stating their 'termination' voltages that are well within acceptable range, but as mdocod pointed out, those voltages are often the resting voltages after already having been overcharged. The damage has already been done, and maybe unknown to the user.
mdocod
Flashaholic
And while the final resting voltages of cells coming off the 139 often are fine, there is at least 1 version of the 139 out there that will continue to trickle charge after the "termination" which, if not caught by the user, can translate to very over-charged cells. There's also another version floating around out there that will completely miss termination entirely if the cells that are inserted are already close to being fully charged, which can result in charging right up to the PCB cut-off, assuming there is a PCB on the cells in question. That particular flaw could easily lead to an explosion on an unprotected cell.
Eric
Eric
The battery's voltage you measure after removing it from the charger is not necessarily the max. voltage it has been given during charge.
In the above zoomed portion of a Pila charging a 14500 you see the voltage rise to 4.227V during the CC phase and then decrease to 4.195V during the CV phase. (That's well within the limits of course.) When current is cut, the voltage of the battery sags to 4.108V in this case.
Complete graph below:
Wulf
In the above zoomed portion of a Pila charging a 14500 you see the voltage rise to 4.227V during the CC phase and then decrease to 4.195V during the CV phase. (That's well within the limits of course.) When current is cut, the voltage of the battery sags to 4.108V in this case.
Complete graph below:
Wulf
Re: Pila IBC - Charging
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[FONT="][FONT="]
It says here in these pages that the early version of the Pila continued to trickle charge also. So what does that have to do with people buying chargers in 2010?[/FONT][/FONT]
SilverFox
Flashaholic
Re: Pila IBC - Charging
Hello Font size,
There are two Pila chargers. The early one was a constant current charger that utilized the batteries protection circuit to terminate the charge.
After several law suits and warranty claims, they introduced the Pila IBC charger. This charger follows the CC/CV charge algorithm and shuts off at the end of the charge.
Tom
Hello Font size,
There are two Pila chargers. The early one was a constant current charger that utilized the batteries protection circuit to terminate the charge.
After several law suits and warranty claims, they introduced the Pila IBC charger. This charger follows the CC/CV charge algorithm and shuts off at the end of the charge.
Tom
45/70
Flashlight Enthusiast
It is also pertinent to note that the first Pila charger was the first consumer type Li-Ion charger in the world. It was developed long before the various BlastFire's were even a twinkle their Daddy's eye (that's a horrid thought!). When the first Pila was released, the only xxxxxFire around was xxxxFire (note the number of x's), that'd be SureFire. BlastFire and all of the other "ImitationFire's" didn't exist.
Dave
Dave
Hitthespot
Flashlight Enthusiast
I would say your results are normal. I never get termination at a minimum below 4.12 and maximum above 4.18 regardless of what type of cell I charge.
Bill
Bill
mdocod
Flashaholic
Re: Pila IBC - Charging
Many people still own and use original Pila and Wolf-Eyes chargers that require proper mating with protected cells designed to terminate the charge themselves to even work properly. Those original chargers should not be considered safe since one only relies on the PCB as the termination mechanism, a very possible PCB failure could cause a cell to be overcharged dramatically, leading to explosion.
Most of the people still using these chargers are likely oblivious to the safety hazards. They could inadvertently think that the charger is safe to use with other brands and styles of cells and wind up with a major safety problem on their hands. Continuing to mention the charging hazards in 2010 will hopefully make more and more people aware.
If one of those chargers from years ago causes a house to burn down in 2010, then the entire industry of consumer li-ion chargers like this will be under the microscope, so your 2010 charger may not even be available any more.
What guarantee does anyone have, that the next WF-139 purchased from DX doesn't get pulled from the back of the shelf that didn't get rotated, and turns out to be a 1st generation with trickle charging problems?
So, on your behalf, on anyone else who might appreciate it, and on my own behalf, I will fight to keep people informed so that we can all be selfish and continue enjoying our energy dense cells.
The past can bite us. The answers to the future can almost always be found in the past.
Eric
Many people still own and use original Pila and Wolf-Eyes chargers that require proper mating with protected cells designed to terminate the charge themselves to even work properly. Those original chargers should not be considered safe since one only relies on the PCB as the termination mechanism, a very possible PCB failure could cause a cell to be overcharged dramatically, leading to explosion.
Most of the people still using these chargers are likely oblivious to the safety hazards. They could inadvertently think that the charger is safe to use with other brands and styles of cells and wind up with a major safety problem on their hands. Continuing to mention the charging hazards in 2010 will hopefully make more and more people aware.
If one of those chargers from years ago causes a house to burn down in 2010, then the entire industry of consumer li-ion chargers like this will be under the microscope, so your 2010 charger may not even be available any more.
What guarantee does anyone have, that the next WF-139 purchased from DX doesn't get pulled from the back of the shelf that didn't get rotated, and turns out to be a 1st generation with trickle charging problems?
So, on your behalf, on anyone else who might appreciate it, and on my own behalf, I will fight to keep people informed so that we can all be selfish and continue enjoying our energy dense cells.
The past can bite us. The answers to the future can almost always be found in the past.
Eric
What guarantee does anyone have, that the next WF-139 purchased from DX doesn't get pulled from the back of the shelf that didn't get rotated, and turns out to be a 1st generation with trickle charging problems?
And how long do you suppose this threat is going continue into the future: this one last refugee holdout, on a shelf, somewhere in the world, in a DX warehouse?
What guarantee does anybody have that the plane they're about to climb on, isn't going pancake or they're not going get killed in their automobile.....today?
And how long do you suppose this threat is going continue into the future: this one last refugee holdout, on a shelf, somewhere in the world, in a DX warehouse?
What guarantee does anybody have that the plane they're about to climb on, isn't going pancake or they're not going get killed in their automobile.....today?
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FroggyTaco
Flashlight Enthusiast
What guarantee does anyone have, that the next WF-139 purchased from DX doesn't get pulled from the back of the shelf that didn't get rotated, and turns out to be a 1st generation with trickle charging problems?
And how long do you suppose this threat is going continue into the future: this one last refugee holdout, on a shelf, somewhere in the world, in a DX warehouse?
What guarantee does anybody have that the plane they're about to climb on, isn't going pancake or they're not going get killed in their automobile.....today?
That's why you buy a current generation Pila IBC & sleep more peacefully at night.
That's why you buy a current generation Pila IBC & sleep more peacefully at night.
And what about those who can't afford a Pila IBC, are they to be kept out of the rechargeable club?
"I'm sorry, we don't allow poor folk like you into our rechargeable battery club. You see, we're a very snooty club."
Come on, the warning about a single, last, who knows what generation charger, lurking on a shelf somewhere in the world, smacks of alarmist extremism not to mention recommending only the most expensive charger, comes across with a certain bit of elitism. As a noob to these forums, I expect better of you folks, not worse.
I guess one could say, don't forget to buckle your seat belt and get your brakes and tires serviced regularly cause the life you save, could be your own.
:thumbsup:
And what about those who can't afford a Pila IBC, are they to be kept out of the rechargeable club?
"I'm sorry, we don't allow poor folk like you into our rechargeable battery club. You see, we're a very snooty club."
Come on, the warning about a single, last, who knows what generation charger, lurking on a shelf somewhere in the world, smacks of alarmist extremism not to mention recommending only the most expensive charger, comes across with a certain bit of elitism. As a noob to these forums, I expect better of you folks, not worse.
I guess one could say, don't forget to buckle your seat belt and get your brakes and tires serviced regularly cause the life you save, could be your own.
:thumbsup:
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FroggyTaco
Flashlight Enthusiast
Your mean to tell me that $36.00 extra dollars you spend for a Pila over a Ultra-Fire is breaking the bank?
That is one dinner with the Wife or a couple packs of beers if that's your fancy. Seems like a fairly cheap investment in the grand scheme of things.
Travis
p.s. I also agree with your automotive analogy. Except I service my cars myself in order to know the job is done right.:tinfoil:
That is one dinner with the Wife or a couple packs of beers if that's your fancy. Seems like a fairly cheap investment in the grand scheme of things.
Travis
p.s. I also agree with your automotive analogy. Except I service my cars myself in order to know the job is done right.:tinfoil:
One side of my Pila IBC routinely terminates at 4.17 to 4.18V and the other usually shows 4.20 to 4.21V right after completion. These are 18650s I'm checking. The termination voltage does not appear to be battery related. The voltage value appears to be the charger itself (left side is always slightly higher voltage at the end).
lightsandknives
Enlightened
All RCRs come off at between 4.1 and 4.3 every time on my Pila. I'll definitely give up that last little bit of charge to extend the life of my batteries.
mdocod
Flashaholic
FroggyTaco wrote:
Your mean to tell me that $36.00 extra dollars you spend for a Pila over a Ultra-Fire is breaking the bank?
Nope, never wrote that. Personally, I haven't purchased an UltraFire charger, so I don't have to worry about the one hiding in a warehouse somewhere, waiting for a chance to burn the house down. But to some, no, they can't afford the extra thirty-six bucks. Me? I bought two Pila's from Bug Out Gear, to give away. I guess you either don't know or have forgotten what it's like to not have a boatload of cash hanging around.
:thumbsup:
As an outsider to this forum (noobie) who just recently joined, I see a whole bunch of unwarranted elitism as to chargers and batteries. You know, lacking a "Fair and Balanced" approach.
Your mean to tell me that $36.00 extra dollars you spend for a Pila over a Ultra-Fire is breaking the bank?
Nope, never wrote that. Personally, I haven't purchased an UltraFire charger, so I don't have to worry about the one hiding in a warehouse somewhere, waiting for a chance to burn the house down. But to some, no, they can't afford the extra thirty-six bucks. Me? I bought two Pila's from Bug Out Gear, to give away. I guess you either don't know or have forgotten what it's like to not have a boatload of cash hanging around.
:thumbsup:
As an outsider to this forum (noobie) who just recently joined, I see a whole bunch of unwarranted elitism as to chargers and batteries. You know, lacking a "Fair and Balanced" approach.
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