Police Study of tactical use of Strobe

fletch31

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Pity they don't make anything to fit the 40-42mm bezels many 'tactical' 1x18650 lights have these days.


Max

Au contraire, mon frere. I found this 43mm version two days ago:
http://www.lampentroll.de/themes/ka...ategorieid=45&source=2&refertype=1&referid=45

It exists but lapentroll.de doesn't have the United States available in the drop down menu for the shipping country selection. Now just to find a supplier for the US...

***Edit***
I called Phoebus Tactical and inquired with Randy about them carrying the 43mm version. They have the 34mm and 37mm versions now. I gave him some info regarding its existence and he said he would look into it regarding carrying it in the future. He also said he was familiar with our forum. Maybe he is a member.

Fletch31
 
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Grizzlyb

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Au contraire, mon frere. I found this 43mm version two days ago:
http://www.lampentroll.de/themes/ka...ategorieid=45&source=2&refertype=1&referid=45

It exists but lapentroll.de doesn't have the United States available for in the drop down menu for shipping country selection. Now just to find a supplier for the US...

Fletch31

Very good news Fletch,

There is a possibility that we test an other Tactical Light with a 40mm head.
Armytek has some interesting models that we want to try.
 
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nitehead

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It exists but lapentroll.de doesn't have the United States available in the drop down menu for shipping country selection.

Lampentroll ships to almost every country, so United States should be no problem. Shipping might be expensive, though. On the other hand, you save 19% value added tax, because of the non European destination :) I have done business with Marcus (owner of lampentroll) in Germany, he always replys quite fast via E-Mail. You may want to contact him for details on individual shipping rates to the US :)
 

fletch31

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Lampentroll ships to almost every country, so United States should be no problem. Shipping might be expensive, though. On the other hand, you save 19% value added tax, because of the non European destination :) I have done business with Marcus (owner of lampentroll) in Germany, he always replys quite fast via E-Mail. You may want to contact him for details on individual shipping rates to the US :)

:thumbsup: Will do! Thanks
***Edit***
Marcus was very friendly and will ship to me here in the US for a 10 Euro shipping charge for a 43mm holster. This holster will work perfectly for my Armytek Predator. Thank you nitehead!
 
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bluemax_1

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Au contraire, mon frere. I found this 43mm version two days ago:
http://www.lampentroll.de/themes/ka...ategorieid=45&source=2&refertype=1&referid=45

It exists but lapentroll.de doesn't have the United States available in the drop down menu for the shipping country selection. Now just to find a supplier for the US...

***Edit***
I called Phoebus Tactical and inquired with Randy about them carrying the 43mm version. They have the 34mm and 37mm versions now. I gave him some info regarding its existence and he said he would look into it regarding carrying it in the future. He also said he was familiar with our forum. Maybe he is a member.

Fletch31
Nice find! I really like the design of this holster. Thanks to Grizzlyb for bringing it to our attention and good job on finding the bigger size Fletch31!

Lampentroll ships to almost every country, so United States should be no problem. Shipping might be expensive, though. On the other hand, you save 19% value added tax, because of the non European destination :) I have done business with Marcus (owner of lampentroll) in Germany, he always replys quite fast via E-Mail. You may want to contact him for details on individual shipping rates to the US :)
Good info to know.


Max
 

Ragnar66

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Would love to get one of those holsters in the 40mm size......seem pretty hard to find so far!
 

Grizzlyb

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We talked a lot about the how and what, of the developments on tactical use of lights.
I tried to explain some details in a video. Don't think to much of it, it is just a visualization of what we already talked about in detail.
But sometimes 1 minute of pictures can say more than a 1000 words.
Have fun:
 

ledmitter_nli

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We have disagreements about strobe frequency (i'm not going to revisit that debate :D), so how about this,

What's your opinion about overwhelming 2,000+ constant on focused lumens verses a 500 lumen strobe?
 

bluemax_1

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We have disagreements about strobe frequency (i'm not going to revisit that debate :D), so how about this,

What's your opinion about overwhelming 2,000+ constant on focused lumens verses a 500 lumen strobe?

As has been discussed ad infinitum, there's a world of difference between lumens and candela


Max
 

jaycyu

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That's why I made a reference to "focused" lumens. :D
: p
The max lumen Vinhn can go with a focused LED is with the XML U3 6A DD on copper at 1200 OTF for a 6P-sized torch.
A more intense but smaller hotspot can be had with his XP-E2 3A copper at 400 OTF lumen.

Is the hotspot of the XP-E2 large enough to overlay both eyes at 1-2 meters, and contineously track the aggressor's evasive maneuvers?
My vote is currently on the XML.
 

ledmitter_nli

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: p
The max lumen Vinhn can go with a focused LED is with the XML U3 6A DD on copper at 1200 OTF for a 6P-sized torch.
A more intense but smaller hotspot can be had with his XP-E2 3A copper at 400 OTF lumen.

Is the hotspot of the XP-E2 large enough to overlay both eyes at 1-2 meters, and contineously track the aggressor's evasive maneuvers?
My vote is currently on the XML.

... so yes, very high constant on lux verses 500 lumen strobe. Which wins?

(asking Grizz)
 

hikingman

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My guess he's gonna say the one you can aim and "fire" the quickest when under "attack" when you have only a few seconds to act!
 

bluemax_1

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: p
The max lumen Vinhn can go with a focused LED is with the XML U3 6A DD on copper at 1200 OTF for a 6P-sized torch.
A more intense but smaller hotspot can be had with his XP-E2 3A copper at 400 OTF lumen.

Is the hotspot of the XP-E2 large enough to overlay both eyes at 1-2 meters, and contineously track the aggressor's evasive maneuvers?
My vote is currently on the XML.

... so yes, very high constant on lux verses 500 lumen strobe. Which wins?

(asking Grizz)

Not Grizzlyb, but I'll toss in my observations anyway:

It depends on the candela.

The whole point of the tactical strobe is to temporarily blind and disorient the subject to gain the advantage by negatively affecting one of our most heavily relied on senses, i.e. the sense of sight. If you use a light that is so blindingly bright, one single flash blinds them for a good while, the same effect is accomplished. The issue here is that given 2 average tactical use lights with identical output and identical candela (hotspot intensity), the strobe adds a further disorienting factor and does this without requiring candela so high you begin to risk potential harm to the subject.

Taken to the extreme though, if you could develop a flashbulb that would emulate the intensity of glancing at a nuclear event, the one single flash would be enough because the subject now has no vision left. That's not a practical solution though (even if it were viable), which is why there was some discussion on candela and intensity. Below a certain threshold, even the strobing of the light loses its effectiveness, but above a certain intensity, the light might begin to pose a hazard. By using a light of moderately high intensity WITH the effect of the strobe frequency, you can get the desired effect, while limiting the potential hazards.

I find that lights with a candela range between 20,000 and 30,000 to be extremely effective in a wide variety of lighting conditions at night and at the typical ranges it might be needed for such purposes. At this intensity even a single flash in the face/eyes, can temporarily disrupt/impair the subject's vision enough to gain an advantage and strobing them produces a very strong reaction. When the candela begins to climb into the 40,000+ region though, the light is not only disorienting, it begins to become painful and I haven't reviewed enough research to know where safe limits are beginning to be exceeded.

On the other hand, when the lights are in the 7,000 candela region or lower, they're not very effective even with a strobe, especially in urban ambient lighting. In near zero lighting with full dark adaptation, I have no doubt this amount of candela would still be extremely effective. The objective is to find the median though. For example, the Armytek Predator with XP-G2 produces almost 30,000 candela, but does so at the expense of spill, and that's another factor to consider. Depending on their usage, these lights need a certain amount of spill so that at a range of 2-5 yards, the spill lights the subject up enough that you can see if they might be holding a weapon. This is one of the things I dislike about the Predator; the spill at closer ranges is much narrower than with many other lights available. The hotspot is also a lot smaller, so at close ranges, you might not hit the target in the eyes with that hotspot on your first try.

Even the Predator X v2 with the XM-L emitter has a narrow spill. It has to do with their reflector design. The Predator XM-L has a bigger hotspot than the XP-G2, but the spill seems fairly close, and still far narrower than lights like the Eagletac G25C2-mkII, Nitecore P25 and Olight M22 (the M22 has the widest spill of these lights mentioned). That spill also helps when chasing someone through dark backyards, and or searching a dark alley or clearing a room.

So to sum up, your question is not one that can be easily answered because there are limits to what is available, what is safe and what is practical. If you have no concern about any of these things, then I suppose a person could carry around an RC40 all the time.


Max
 

Ken J. Good

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Grizzlyb: Thank you for taking the time to make the video. You obviously have strong opinions on what is or is not "tactical".

I am wrestling with some of your logic here.
I see several fallacies in your overall reasoning including incomplete comparison, mind projection fallacy, Nirvana fallacy and suppressed correlative. You have basically defined "tactical flashlight" in your own terms and excluded other possibilities.

You've driven the argument to one place; a single purpose flashlight that meets your particular operational requirements based on your methods of operation.

Fine, what works for you (and others) is what works for you (and others).

What I have is in no uncertain terms in the indisputable fact based on first-hand experience and the direct testimony of many, many others (including a wide swath of police officers in performing in many capacities) of a long period of time, stating that other approaches also yield excellent, consistent results as well in the exact same set of circumstances you are describing.

Whew…what a run-on….

Your perfect flashlight, it's akin to stating the only true definition of a car is one that has 10,000 hp, goes in straight line and goes from 0 to 340 mph in under 4 secs. Yes that is a car and the one most suited for winning drag races, however comma, that particular sport application does not in fact encompass the entire spectrum of vehicle operation.

When you toss out the word "tactical" it might be nice to start with the actual definition:

1 : of or relating to combat tactics: as

a (1) : of or occurring at the battlefront <a tactical defense> <a tactical first strike> (2) : using or being weapons or forces employed at the battlefront <tactical missiles>

b of an air force : of, relating to, or designed for air attack in close support of friendly ground forces

2 a : of or relating to tactics: as (1) : of or relating to small-scale actions serving a larger purpose (2) : made or carried out with only a limited or immediate end in view

b : adroit in planning or maneuvering to accomplish a purpose

Therefore unless you actual believe you have encircled the ENTIRE spectrum of combat with a single purpose flashlight (which you have not), you are going to have to open your aperture a bit wider.

Yes Police Officers spend most of their time not shooting people. We are in perfect agreement there.

I see illumination tools as a series of calculated compromises.
At this point, I believe one cannot have it all in one tool. The fundamental laws of physics, ergonomics, human factors, pricing dictate otherwise.

What is right for one; may be wrong for another.

When we first rolled out the Gladius, people were telling me, all I need is a button that turns the light ON and OFF. My response: That is awesome; you can obtain that in a wide variety of packages. You are set.

People resist change, it's that simple.

I did not the come up with the Gladius as a result of pleasing a manufacturer or even for the potential commercial value as insinuated earlier in your comments.

It was the direct result of years of slinging rounds against shoot-back adversaries. It was dark, dynamic, and highly chaotic at times. Interspersed with that was and remains a serious study of close quarter combatives (hand-to-hand) while armed and wearing armor. I did not get paid more or less as result of my keen interest in this particular area.

We modified flashlights, brought multiple tools into the environment and fought it out. It was long-term trial and error in a semi-controlled training situation without any previous guidance, as doctrine simply did not exist.

I remember as child play fighting with my older brother in a darkened room while we had a strobe light on….Talk about some blindside takeouts!

As a corollary to this story, me and my older brother (4th​ and 5th​ grade), used to bring the old disposable Kodak Flash cubes with us on school field trips. We would sneak into other peoples sleeping spaces and "Flash" them just as we would wake them up….Yes we were little *******s, but I almost lost a kidney laughing so hard at people's total disorientation.

Anyway, years later, while looking to make some improvised devices for students to locate during bomb searches, I noted a strobe light on the shelf and purchased it. I brought this plug into the wall variant onto our training platform. The downrange results to the opponents were highly debilitating to them in terms of situational awareness. The phrase "Win the Light Fight and you will probably Win the Gunfight" was born out of these experiences. If fact, my fellow instructors started telling me I could not bring that particular light setup into the training environment because it was basically impossible for the students to accomplish their tasking while subjected to the effects of strobing light.

Only after was I was fully convinced that the practical operational benefits of strobing outweighed the potential downsides, did I lobby any manufacturer for it's inclusion.

At the time, I happened to be working for Surefire as the Director of the Surefire Institute. I tabled the concept multiple times and it was outright rejected and considered nonsensical by those sitting behind a computer desk.

Again, people resist change.

From that point forward, I kept it under my proverbial hat and decided that somehow, someway I was going to bring this forward. It was born of passion, not monetary gain.

Through a long convoluted chain of events, I finally had the opportunity to bring my vision to life. It was the Gladius. At the time, 3-watt LED emitters had just broken the 60-lumen threshold. I believe it was just enough to give it a shot. Together with the resources of Blackhawk Industries, the first light specifically designed to be used in so-called "tactical situations" with multi-function (including strobe) was released.
From THAT point forward others have attempted to create multi-function flashlights that may or may not be useful.

I would like to drop back and mention how we arrived at the strobe frequency of the Gladius. One of the engineers simply created a box with an LED emitter. The user could simply dial the frequency rate in and an evaluation could made as to the perceived disorientation downrange. That is, what the recipient was experiencing. It was sent around the country to folks we knew operating in the real-world in Law Enforcement or the Military. The #1 and #2 frequencies selected were 12 & 13.
So the Gladius was set accordingly.

What I am reading here is that higher frequency might be better for observation of the recipient.

I have never parsed that out too tightly as I never really noted any difficulty observing any and all movements of my opponents. I will however take your observations into account; I consider it good data.

Back to One function or Multi-function:

This is the question at hand in my view.

A strong argument can be made for 1 function and 1 function only. I see it. Given the total amount of exposure to stress, training and many of those attempting to use tool A, B, or C in any given situation. People make bad decisions under duress like reaching for a pistol instead of Taser and end up unintentionally killing subjects. They put their car in Reverse as opposed to Forward and reap the reward of said decision/action.

The case can be clearly made for need to remove as much complexity as possible. Agreed.

Therefore get yourself the appropriate tool.

Don't strap yourself into an F/A-18 when all you can fly is a Cessna 152.

Myself (and others), might have the where-with-all to see situations as they develop and easily switch my Gladius form factor (rotary dial) from one-function to another seamlessly, without friction or hesitation.

That is the general idea of prevailing in all combat; to ability to adapt to the situations as they unfold. Better operators can do more with more.

Back to the Basics:
It turns out, that if one not forced to shoot somebody to in a Law Enforcement capacity a series of critcal choices will have to be made anyway. One must select, to verbally engage only, baton, OC, Taser, K9, Less-lethal munitions, hands on, and Oh, I might have to roll my flashlight dial one-click to strobe as my partner is covering down on the subject with his or her firearm.

There are notable time gaps from which to work within. Things during this process don't happen instantaneously. They unfold, albeit, rapidly at times.

Bottom line is that most arrest and control situations are not an immediate life-threatening situation and choices must be cycled through and selected in a relatively calm, professional manner.

I am with you with respect to multiple pushes on a button to change modes. In my view, this is clearly a no-go. Hence the design of a fast-acting, simple rotary dial of a flashlight I designed quite some time ago.

Back to the modes. Too many; not good. In my view, 3 choices were enough, but no too much. It was calculated comprise of options and relative simplicity.

Why the inclusion of another mode (navigation) in the first place?

Keep in mind the inclusion of Strobe Mode was fraught with negative angst when it was first introduced. What's this Nav Mode?

Based on years of FoF training and real-world feedback, In my view it's always a good thing, not to get shot prior to arresting somebody while I am blasting my 300-800+ Lumens of steady or strobing flashlight all over the place during a navigation challenge in a low-light environment.

Flashlights are bullet-magnets, period. I have several documented Law Enforcement case studies clearly indicating this.
I have years and years of FoF simulations that also demonstrates this.

It's also good not to devastate your teammates night adaptation while you are trying to maneuver.

Stealth is a welcome friend in many "tactical" situations.

Would you then say, use a different tool to accomplish this tasking or just ignore it as reality?

If you state: Switch tools, my response then would be how much time/decision-making cycles and bio-mechanical movement would be required to switch from Navigation Mode back "tactical mode with an entire tool change?

If you state: Not a valid consideration, my response then would be, I believe you would be mistaken.

In conclusion:

I am not here to tell operator's which tools to use to accomplish their mission. I am here to tell them how to accomplish their mission.

I do believe it's to everyone's benefit to have an array of tools at your disposal that one can actually use under duress.

For some, it's one function. For others, they can leverage additional, usable options in the dynamic making them effective in a wider diversity of situations.
 
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Grizzlyb

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As has been discussed ad infinitum, there's a world of difference between lumens and candela

Max

Max, Jaycu,
please do us a favor,

Don't react anymore. It will start all over again. He will keep trying to get a reason to start flaming again.
As long as a moderator does not remove his posts, just Ignore it.
He allmost killed the thread twice, he will keep trying untill he has his result.
 
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Grizzlyb

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Hi Ken,

Thanks for You informative answer.
First of all, I made the mistake to not include in the video, that I talk about Dutch police officers, working under Dutch situations and laws.

I do have some years experience in this field, but mainly on Dutch grounds, under Dutch rules and laws.
I am on the Amsterdam Police force since 1-1-1972. Have been in every squad there was up to 1999. After that the Academy asked me to come.
Last 14 Years I am trainer of all squads, street officers, students, Riot squads and everything that has a weapon.

But apart from that, every officer that uses his gun, has to make a full report and tell the hole story from a to z . . . to me.
Thats part of our job as trainers in Amsterdam. We look into every case that shooting was involved.
So we know of every shooting incident of the past 15 years, and we keep records of these incidents.
We can tell You, that there where zero shooting incidents where the officer had a light in his/her hand.

About EVERY site I read on the internet, when there is talk about Tactical Lights, It is always about guns, which technique (Harries, FBI, etc.)
Even You do it, You start talking of getting shot and bullit magnet. We can't press this point enough. This light is NOT intended for use in gun situations. Sorry to say, but that is not the way 99,9999% of the Dutch LEO's works with their lights.

We have a different approach. We use our tactical lights more as a way to gain a short tactical advantage in weaponless situations. We never talk about guns and the use of this type of light.
Special Squads use other lights, special designed and more suited to there needs.

In Holland every LEO has to follow special developed training for a minimum of 32 hours each year.
75% of that time is used for hand to hand combat. Training with and without weapons.

Every time they use a weapon they have to report that in full length.
When they dont use a weapon, but can overpower an aggressor without any damage, they DON'T have to report, no harm done.
So we teach them to gain every tactical advantage they can come up with. . . . . and here comes this tactical light in handy.
There are even special trainings to control "mental" patients that go berserk and have to be controlled.
In many country's we see that LEO's use a lot of (unnecessary)force to control these people.
We use a special technique called SPOR procedure, together with our tactical lights.
Work perfectly no damage to us or them.
Your right that in many cases, like that SPOR procedure, we have time to choose the mode we need.
But, in our line of work, many times we don't. Situations like problems in bars, domestic fights etc. Everything seems to be calm and from out of the blue things start happening.
We are always in pairs, You look at your partner, signal for arrest and go in.
Blind the guy, overpower him and done deal. Time to go in the pouch somewhere on the backside on your belt? no, Time to search for that damn strobe mode? no, tactical holster is perfect, just pulle the light use it, let it drop and have your hands free. Simple and effective. And, it works. many many many times over. So no opinion Ken, facts.

Keep in mind, we talk about non weapon related situations.

Maybe in your situations there is always time to choose what ever tactic or technique you need for the given situation.
In Holland it is many times the same, but also a lot of times not. Many times officers have to react in a split second.
Luckily most times they can see instantly that it is not live threatening, but they do have to react under stress, no time to think a lot about it.
Indoors, it is not wise to use the pepper spray we work with. So they are trained to grab there tactical light and have a short time a similar effect. Just a few moments, but enough to react.
But when they DO have time, they can always switch to 1 of the 3 different modes, Low Mid or high, without strobe.

With the right training I can teach you too. When You are in Holland, PM me, Your more then welcome on the training facility.
We already had lots of US trainers to work with us and learn together, You'll probably know Jim Wagner? He was one of them and trained several times with us.

Never know, maybe a new inside, or a new way to use these lights on different fields?
It works for us, so probably for other LEO's in similar situations?

They developed lights for guns, for searching and for many other fields of our work, So why not developed a light for this part of work.
It has not been done till today, So we did it our self.
More or less the same as you did some 5 years ago?

And for the record, it is not my strong opinion.
We developed these facts together with about 45 trainers of our academie, and with the help of the University of Amsterdam. (and specialist from FBI, guys like Jim, and many other guests of our Academy)
It has been proven over the last years in hundreds of trainings and many real life situations.
But as said, It goes for our situation, maybe not in your country?

We don't have a preference for 1 brand of lights. As long as they can make what we need, it's ok with us.
Gladius and Surefire have great lights, but nothing that suits our needs.
If they start making it. great we are all the wiser for it.:thumbsup:

Edit:
Your right on the point that there are many other tactical uses for lights, I should have stated that more explicit.
But we found, that for the regular LEO, there is a big unexplored field that a light can be used many times more often than in gun situations.

And about work with nav mode,
What happens more often, simple non weapon arrests, or saituations that u need a nav mode?
And working with LEO's, You should know as we do, that:
When we develop a light that CAN be changed, 80% WILL change it to always work in 20lm mode for reading drivers licence. Whats tactical about that?
 
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