Power supply options?

muddrunner198

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Ok, i am wanting to power ten x-ml's in series. Can you help me choose a power supply? It needs a 12v input, and 28-30 amp output. What would the output voltage need to be? :)Thanks
 

deadrx7conv

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Ten xm-l's in series will require 29-35v depending on the bin..... 33.3v x 28-30 amp = 90-100w
Your driver need to output 33v at 2.8-3.0amps per each of the 10LEDs for that 90w-100w series circuit.

There aren't too many 100w LED drivers that output that with 12v in.

I run a 144w adjustable DC-DC step-up power supply from ebay. I do run it at only 50w. I'd wager that you might have to glue on some heatsinks and improve cooling to push it to 100w. It is adjustable voltage, and you will set the power by measuring voltage/current.... and calculating your wattage.

For example(i don't make recommendations but you can research or build your own equivalent)
http://cgi.ebay.com/300596249023
http://cgi.ebay.com/250888183796

Dealextreme has 30w and 20w 12vdc step up boost drivers.
http://www.dealextreme.com/p/30w-boost-led-driver-dc-12v-81843
http://www.dealextreme.com/p/20w-boost-driver-66388
 
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vaska

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"In series" means one after another, so the current through the string cannot be more than 3A. Multiplying Vf of the LEDs by their quantity in the string makes output voltage: more than 30V.
An example.
 

wquiles

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LED's are current-dependent devices, and as they heat/warm up (plus as they slowly wear out) their vf "will" change, so unless you have a current regulated supply (which will let the voltage change a little up/down to control the current being constant), you will "NOT" get constant brightness, since the regulator only controls the voltage, not the current.

Will
 

blasterman

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LED's are current-dependent devices

As compared to electronic devices that are only voltage dependant? Hook one or two Rebels up to a 24 or 48volt current regulated LED supply, plug it in, and watch the LEDs let the magic smoke out as the momentary high voltage surge kills the LEDs.

Might be simplier and cheaper to just put a DC/DC buck type regulator on each LED and fire them in parallel.
 

wquiles

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As compared to electronic devices that are only voltage dependant?

No, that is not what I said. I said current-dependent, not current-limiting devices.


LED's:
- The brightness for an LED is controlled by controlling the current. The LED is current-dependent.
- You can't just put a voltage regulator to an LED and expect the brightness of the LED to remain constant. You maintain a constant brightness for an LED, as the vf varies, you need a current regulated LED driver, which is NOT the same as a standard/common voltage regulator (which uses the voltage as the feedback signal) - a current regulator uses the current as the feedback signal.

Incandescent bulbs:
- The brightness for an incandescent bulb is controlled by controlling the voltage. The incandescent bulbs are voltage-dependent.
- To maintain constant brightness you use a voltage regulator (linear, DC-DC, does not mater) - the voltage regulator will vary the current through the filament to maintain a constant voltage (and constant brightness).

Will
 

muddrunner198

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Thanks for the input guys. Im still in the learning process. I am wanting to build an off road light for my truck, ten x-ml's running at 2.8-3 amps each. I'm thinking about what BLASTERMAN said about running ten buck drivers, but I cant seem to find any that fit my specs. 12v input, 3.3v 2.8A output.
 

Codiak

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You might be better off changing the wiring to a combination of serial and parallel and a couple drivers.

Since 3 XM-L fV would be under 12 volts you could use driver a single driver to power them in series.
Do this 3 times in parallel for 9 LEDs
or 4 times for 12 total LEDs.
 

muddrunner198

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"Codiak" I was thinking of that too, but like I said, Im new to this and didnt want to sound dumb. But, again, I cant seem to find a driver for these specs either. 12v input, 10v 8A output. Is there someone on CPF that could make this for me?
 
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wquiles

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Thanks for the input guys. Im still in the learning process. I am wanting to build an off road light for my truck, ten x-ml's running at 2.8-3 amps each. I'm thinking about what BLASTERMAN said about running ten buck drivers, but I cant seem to find any that fit my specs. 12v input, 3.3v 2.8A output.

"Codiak" I was thinking of that too, but like I said, Im new to this and didnt want to sound dumb. But, again, I cant seem to find a driver for these specs either. 12v input, 10v 8A output. Is there someone on CPF that could make this for me?


The reason you are having trouble finding your power supply is because that is not how power supplies (PS) are normally specified. The large majority (95%+) of PS are voltage regulated, and on each output voltage (fixed or variable) the manufacturer specifies a range of supported output current values, thus the PS is "guaranteed" to maintain the output voltage constant while the current or "load" varies in the specified range. For example, one of my bench power supplies has two adjustable outputs:
1) 0-6 volts, up to 5 Amps
2) 0-25 volts, up to 1 Amp

Now, for LED's, such as in your project, these power supplies are nearly useless to maintain the drive current level (and therefore output in lumens) that you are after. Since each and every one of those LED's (even from the same bin) will have slightly different value for vf, you really have to use a current-regulated PS, which we simply refer to here in the forums as an LED Current Driver, or just LED Driver.

In your particular case, if your voltage supply is for a car, then if you are getting power from the regulated side, you will get a fairly good 12 volts or so, but if you are getting it from the battery side, then your voltage range will be higher when the engine is running, closer to 14 volts (since the alternator needs a higher voltage for re-charging the car battery). Of course if the engine is not running, then you are back to having 12 volts or so, but being conservative in the design, the actual range that your LED drivers can see will be from something like 12 volts, to about 14 volts.

You now have two more options: do you use a buck design, or a boost design for the LED Driver. The buck design is used when the added "nominal" vf's of the LED's at the current you will drive them is less than the input voltage to the LED Driver. The boost design is needed when the added "nominal" vf's of the LED's at the current you will drive them is more than the input voltage to the LED Driver.

In your case, since you have so many LED's, you can go either way. For example:

- assume the vf for each LED at 2.8-3 Amps is about 3.65 volts.
- 3x of these LED's in series would have a voltage approximately less than the input to your power supply = 10.95 volts.
=> In this case you could use a buck LED Driver, that can take 12-14 volts in the input (nominally 12 volts) and drive your 3x LED's at your 2.8-3 amps.

You said you wanted to run 10 LED's, but with this model I would recommend driving 3x LED's per LED driver, and have 2x more additional LED drivers, each one driving 3x LED's, to give you the 9x LED's, properly driven from 3x LED drivers.


Now, lets assume that you want to run all of your LED's in series. If we again assume the vf of about 3.65 volts, and you have 10 LED's, then you need an LED driver that can take 11-14 volts on the input, and that has the ability to "boost" the output voltage in the 37-38 volt range at the output. Here you would need a boost type LED driver.


Now that you have two possible options to properly drive the LED's, you need to find out what LED drivers could do what you need.

From my own personal experience, I mostly use LED drivers from TaskLED.com. George, owner/designer, has a simple comparison table showing you some of the possible ways can drive various LED loads:
http://taskled.com/compare.html


From that table you can see that the Hyperboost "can" start with a voltage as low as 8 volts, and output a voltage as high as 50/80 volts (depending on the model), but unfortunately only with a regulated current of 1.5Amps. Not enough for your needs.

Now, if we look again at that table, you can see that the H6CC, which is a buck LED driver, "can" drive the 3x LED's in series, and could supply up to 6.7Amps - of course when you buy it from George, you just ask him to set them up for 3.0 amps, so no problem.

So in summary, for your case, I would recommend 3x H6CC LED drivers set to 3.0amps, to drive 3x LED's. Then do this 2x more times for a total of 9x LED's (or 3x more times, if you want 12 LED's). Of course, you better have "enough" of a heatsink for your LED's, given the expected ambient temperature, etc., since as the LED's heatup from 25C, their rated output drops, and their lifespan shortens quickly.

If you choose drivers from TaskLED, before you purchase the, go ahead and contact George by email, so that you both can review the particular scenario - George will give you good advice as to what is reasonable or not.

Good luck,
Will
 
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deadrx7conv

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Current regulated devices? why the scare tactics?

Voltage adjusting will work fine if you set the voltage correctly and have adequately heatsinking. You can also set it hot if you worry so much. You won't notice much of a change in lighting output if you set an LED light, for example at 50w hot vs 50w cold. Sure, there might be a couple watts waiver in either direction. NOT AN ISSUE when dealing with 100w( +-10%). You wont notice much difference between the 90w-110w in light output. You're not going to notice a variable much when you have 10000lm, or 9000-11000lm depending on how efficient or hot the LEDs are, or how accurate you are measuring the voltage/current, or how accurate the power supply is as it warms up too... Current limiting hahahahaha..... never used it above 15w! I'd say for little flashlights and home lighting(where you want some consistency), then stick with your current limiting. When you have gross amount of lighting, a budget, and NO AVAILABLE DC-DC 12v-30v+ current limiting drivers available, use a dc converter voltage power supply.

Codiak has the right idea. 9LEDs or 12LEDs is a better choice in a parallel/series wiring with either a driver or simply a step down resistor.

Driver efficiency seems to be best when your input and output are as close as possible. Those 16v output 20w or 30w Dealextreme drivers are great. You'll need 4 30w or 5 20w and each will power 5 LEDs in series without sweating much(3.3v * 5led = 16.5v total). You will be underdriving the LEDs so use more! 20-25 LEDs that are underdriven will be cooler, better efficiency/efficacy, and pretty much fool proof plug and play. With the voltage dc-dc power supplies, you'll have to use a DMM(or two) and a calculator, or a DC wattage meter. Running 33.3v of 10 series LEDs from a 12v battery is going to toss some efficiency(maybe 20%) out the window.

Mudrunner, not sure what you're using for the 12v power supply. Power pulled off an automotive battery will kill it quick, even with an engine running. You'll need big battery and big alternator if this is for a vehicle. And, power varies greatly from 12.8v at idle to 14+ during moderate RPM. So, you need to make sure that you understand your variable 11.5-14.5v power supply if automotive based.

I also don't recommend pushing an LED to its full rating. You are better off with MORE LEDs run at lower power ratings.

Another option, and doubles the loss(DC-AC and AC-DC), is to use an AC-DC home-type LED driver. Meanwell or Xitanium should be able to power a string of 10 LEDs in series. You can power the Meanwell or Xitanium.... off of a 12v DC-AC inverter.
 

muddrunner198

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wquiles, Thanks, you explained that so even a noob like me could understand. I know that took a little time, Thank you!
 

muddrunner198

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wquiles, I have one more question, If I use the H6CC driver and tell him to set it to 3Amps, Will all 3 leds get 3 Amps, Or 1 Amp per Led? That part is confusing.
 

wquiles

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wquiles, I have one more question, If I use the H6CC driver and tell him to set it to 3Amps, Will all 3 leds get 3 Amps, Or 1 Amp per Led? That part is confusing.

With the 3x LED's wired in series to the output of the H6CC, all LED's will get the same 3amps.

If you were to wire the 3x LED's in parallel, and tie these to the output of the H6CC, then they will roughly get 1Amps each (roughly since in this case, with LED's in parallel, you can't control the current in each LED, and since each LED has an unique vf value, some of the LED's will have slightly over 1 amp, and others will have slightly under 1 amp, and the rest will be at about 1 amp). Only by wiring LED's in series can you guarantee that the LED's will have the same exact current, as the vf difference is irrelevant in that case.

Will
 

muddrunner198

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With the 3x LED's wired in series to the output of the H6CC, all LED's will get the same 3amps.

If you were to wire the 3x LED's in parallel, and tie these to the output of the H6CC, then they will roughly get 1Amps each (roughly since in this case, with LED's in parallel, you can't control the current in each LED, and since each LED has an unique vf value, some of the LED's will have slightly over 1 amp, and others will have slightly under 1 amp, and the rest will be at about 1 amp). Only by wiring LED's in series can you guarantee that the LED's will have the same exact current, as the vf difference is irrelevant in that case.

Will
GOT YA, Thanks again
 
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