SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

Albert_

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Jan 25, 2016
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115
it appears that it is unfortunately, it cannot discharge simultaneously 4x LiIon at 1A, as according to the specs.. so in my understanding it is a faulty unit.

I'm able to discharge 4 x 18650's at 1 amp each and the MC3000 is within it's system temperature specifications at 83 C. Does your charger system temperature go over 85 C?

Charger temperature specifications:

Battery Temperature: 20°C ~ 70°C safety cut-off (+ safety net)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Internal Temperature: 85°C safety net
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Operating Temperature: 0°C ~ 40°C ventilated room

other specifcations:

Input Power DC 11V ~ 18V / 60W PSU adapter output specs

Circuit Power
max. Charge power 50W |x|=x, for x>0
* max. Discharge power |-15W| |x|=-x, for x<0
Operating Voltage Range: 0.2V ~ 5.0V/slot | max. admissible voltage 5.0V!
Battery Capacity: 100mAh ~ 50,000mAh | safety cut-off
 

Albert_

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Jan 25, 2016
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If you want to run a little cooler than system specifications you can cut 4 of plastic vents leaving the two to hold the plastic circular middle piece. Or cut out the entire vent leaving it open.

Leave red and cut green or cut both red and green.

I have not done this mod and my system temperature is within the chargers system temperature specification when discharging 4 x 18650's at 1 amp each. Factory fan (without any mods) is blowing upwards.


mod_fan_vent.png
 
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tjh

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Sep 22, 2013
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Location
Napier, New Zealand
If you want to run a little cooler than system specifications you can cut 4 of plastic vents leaving the two to hold the plastic circular middle piece. Or cut out the entire vent leaving it open.

Leave red and cut green:
Will this help for wuss-bags like me who don't want to open up the charger? Do you think it'll make a difference when the fan is still blowing down (AS GOD INTENDED!) ?

Tim
 

Albert_

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More effective cooling, air flows from the outside to the inside in an upward direction. If yours is blowing down and out. It's an easy enough mod, just flip over the cooling fan so air flows in an upward direction.

Heat (BTU's) naturally flows in a upward direction against gravity, when there is no fan running. The upwards fan helps to move heat in a natural direction.

Secondly, the heat sink located in the upper region of the case produces the majority of the heat inside the case. If the fan pulls this heat down in an unnatural direction other hardware, the PCB, batteries, etc collect and absorb additional heat from the heat sink as the fan tries to pull the remaining heat from the case expelling it towards the ground in an unnatural direction because the heat is trying to go upwards and not downwards. Also the heat is already in the upper portion of the case closer to the upper top vent.


cooling.jpg
 
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ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond

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CT, USA
I post this question, not with the intent of being dismissive of people's needs, but more as a curious question. Why would you need to discharge 4 cells @ 1Amp each? How often does that need arise of those who are angered by the heating issues with this feature?

I may cycle a cell here or there as a capacity test but I just don't see the scenario arising for me where I'd be pushing this charger to the limits like that.

I am loving this charger for all of it charging features, programming options and flexibility. I'd rather not rip it open if I didn't need to.
 

chemEJoe

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Feb 9, 2016
Messages
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I post this question, not with the intent of being dismissive of people's needs, but more as a curious question. Why would you need to discharge 4 cells @ 1Amp each? How often does that need arise of those who are angered by the heating issues with this feature?

I may cycle a cell here or there as a capacity test but I just don't see the scenario arising for me where I'd be pushing this charger to the limits like that.

I am loving this charger for all of it charging features, programming options and flexibility. I'd rather not rip it open if I didn't need to.

For me, it is how long it takes to characterize the capacity of a battery. The higher one can go in current, it can save a lot of time.

Also, as Albert shows in the picture, why go against physics? It's just not smart if you can take 1-2 hrs and solve it. I bet now if I put a laptop cooler below, this thing will be a fridge :)

So to me, if I love this charger, I want it to have a better life. Like adding something nice to your favorite car.

PS - I bow to your 3800 posts ... just a newbie who once knew heat exchangers very well lol.
 
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chemEJoe

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Feb 9, 2016
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Will this help for wuss-bags like me who don't want to open up the charger? Do you think it'll make a difference when the fan is still blowing down (AS GOD INTENDED!) ? Tim

Tim, it's not hard. You just have to think your way through the springs, sliders, rails puzzle. It's a little fun, much easier thana Rubik's cube. I've left the grill. I will cut it later if I need, as you can do that from outside anytime.
 

chemEJoe

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Feb 9, 2016
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you should gather as much experience with pcls as possible before you dare to go through with the fw updating procedure. ... ETA on the fw 1.04? Soon. Dis month no doubt.

Roger wilco ... I trust ya now heh heh.

I have an old XP and I will use that. It will be very fun, a real man-cave. PC, Charger, Batteries to characterize. Just something to do to relax while I do my work.
 

Joe Kidd

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Feb 17, 2016
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Location
NC
More effective cooling, air flows from the outside to the inside in an upward direction. If yours is blowing down and out. It's an easy enough mod, just flip over the cooling fan so air flows in an upward direction.

Heat (BTU's) naturally flows in a upward direction against gravity, when there is no fan running. The upwards fan helps to move heat in a natural direction.

Secondly, the heat sink located in the upper region of the case produces the majority of the heat inside the case. If the fan pulls this heat down in an unnatural direction other hardware, the PCB, batteries, etc collect and absorb additional heat from the heat sink as the fan tries to pull the remaining heat from the case expelling it towards the ground in an unnatural direction because the heat is trying to go upwards and not downwards. Also the heat is already in the upper portion of the case closer to the upper top vent.


cooling.jpg

One great post in this series.
I predict 5000+ posts soon!
 
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
649
This is how I see it too. Maybe in six months when version 3 (or 4) of this wonderful charger comes out, I will get another one by which time they will have fixed all of the 'bugs' (which aren't really bugs).

Until maybe then - I am more than happy and only use my charger in situations which are not even close to the limits.

But good luck to those who like to fiddle for the 'perfect' machine.



I post this question, not with the intent of being dismissive of people's needs, but more as a curious question. Why would you need to discharge 4 cells @ 1Amp each? How often does that need arise of those who are angered by the heating issues with this feature?

I may cycle a cell here or there as a capacity test but I just don't see the scenario arising for me where I'd be pushing this charger to the limits like that.

I am loving this charger for all of it charging features, programming options and flexibility. I'd rather not rip it open if I didn't need to.
 

bosko90

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Feb 3, 2016
Messages
34
Now I test a new version DEX. Table is the same as to previous versions. I think that there is not a lot of work to correct it. Mainly, I know what the numbers are but it would be okay if they were correct units.

new-version-of-dex.jpg
[/IMG]
 

kreisl

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Joined
Jul 5, 2012
Messages
2,244
On my pc it's two seconds off, tested several times using two different brand new USB cables. Apparently there's a usb bottleneck or overhead somewhere. Possibly there's a problem with my Vista USB universal drivers that are designed for many different types of usb devices. Could be something with the USB Hub controller and drivers. PC Bios, etc.

I would need to change or modify something and the PCLS record the cut-off time to figure out why it's two seconds off.

3 min test

0:02:52 4.108 0.5 23 77.3
0:02:53 4.108 0.5 23 77.3
0:02:54 4.108 0.5 23 77.3
0:02:55 4.107 0.5 23 77.3
0:02:56 4.107 0.5 24 77.3
0:02:57 4.107 0.5 24 77.3
0:02:58 4.107 0.5 24 77.3 (last long entry)

I am doing some basic hence important tests with dex, timing and such. My observations so far (with this version of dex):
  1. dex 3.2.5 internal clocking is near perfect now in the sense that logged time intervals (=time differences) are pretty exact, for example the dex log shows 00:02:52 … 00:12:52, meaning a 10min time difference 'on paper', and indeed, timed with a chronometer, the chronometer shows a 10min time difference for this logging period. this property sounds trivial but it was not, users of dex 3.2.4 could tell.
  2. the mc3k lcd clocker, which is the reference timer!, has a start delay because of the Batt IR measurement ("Processing...."). Starting 4 slots together will result in a start delay of 2.5-3.5s, starting just 1 slot results in ~0.5-1.0s start delay. Only after the "Processing...." period does the lcd clocker start its timer in SOV, which is correct behavior. That needs to be taken into account, if you try to time the lcd clocker with a chronograph/stopwatch. it requires some practice to make the stopwatch show the exact same elapsed time as displayed by the lcd clocker, i.e. to make both timers run synchronously. basically: first hit the ENTER-button on mc3k, then wait ~2sec, then hit START on your stopwatch. Then check if they run synchronously. Good to know, you don't need to do this, because lcd clocker is fairly exact and does run identically to any other independent digital watch like Casio G-Shock, Timex, Swatch, etc. this property sounds trivial but it is not, users of Liittookaallaa Lii-500 could tell.
  3. the dex 3.2.5 logging of time stamp [yyyy-mm-dd HH:mm:ss.SSS] is NOT a "copy" of actual WinPC clock time. For example, when Big Ben hits 03:00:00p.m. and you hit the "start gathering"-button, wait 10sec and check the live dex log ("Table"-tab): you'll see that the dex log is ~0.5-1.5sec shifted ahead of Big Ben. It also means that in general the start of the clocking differs between lcd, dex log, and Big Ben, since the effects of 2. and 3. sum up: When Big Ben hits 3p.m., hit the "start gathering"-button, and compare all three times < lcd, big ben, dex > and you would observe something like this: lcd + 3.0s = big ben = dex - 1.0s
  4. it is instructive to (try to) get all three times to run synchronously (Question: "a clocking race, do both dex and lcd follow big ben exactly, even after 10, 20, 30 hours?". Answer: "no, they are not Swiss Premium Quartz watches, so all three slowly drift away, with the big ben staying exact, of course!"). How? Example: Let's assume that we want to see a "2016-03-08 22:00:00.xxx" as very first row/entry in the live dex log ("Table"-tab). For this to happen one needs to hit the ENTER-button (of mc3k device) when Big Ben shows 09:59:57.5p.m., and hit the "start gathering"-button (in dex software) when Big Ben shows 02:59:59.0p.m.. Then, when Big Ben shows 10:00:00p.m., the lcd shows Time: 00:00:00, and the dex log shows 2016-03-08 22:00:00.xxx, and from then on all three show the same progress of time. Compare the three runners after 10, 20, 30 hours and you'll notice …etc… ;)

I'll share my observations about the Finish times when my long Refresh program has finished.
 
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Albert_

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Jan 25, 2016
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115
I just started using Data Explorer and PCLS. Currently don't have any reason to time any of the MC3000's functions. I posted some results to help the user with a time log problem.

A time log is a good place to start to obtain a better understanding of MC3000, PCLS and the DataExplorer.

I see it's possible to change the logging output by editing the "time base and step width" from it's default setting of 1000 ms.

Here's an example output when set to 100 ms.

MC3000 Slot 1
Time [hh:mm:ss.SSS] Voltage [V] Current [A] Capacity [mAh] Power [W] Energy [Wh] BatteryTemperature [øC] BatteryRi [m?]
00:00.000 3.257 -0.499 0 1.63 0 68.5 125
00:00.100 3.252 -0.469 0 1.53 0 68.5 125
00:00.200 3.249 -0.5 1 1.62 0.003 68.5 125
00:00.300 3.249 -0.5 1 1.62 0.003 68.5 125
00:00.400 3.247 -0.5 1 1.62 0.003 68.5 125
00:00.500 3.245 -0.5 1 1.62 0.003 68.5 125
00:00.600 3.243 -0.5 1 1.62 0.003 68.5 125
00:00.700 3.241 -0.5 1 1.62 0.003 68.5 125
00:00.800 3.239 -0.5 1 1.62 0.003 68.5 125
00:00.900 3.238 -0.5 2 1.62 0.006 68.5 125
00:01.000 3.236 -0.5 2 1.62 0.006 68.5 125
00:01.100 3.234 -0.5 2 1.62 0.006 68.5 125
00:01.200 3.232 -0.5 2 1.62 0.006 68.5 125
00:01.300 3.231 -0.5 2 1.62 0.006 68.5 125
00:01.400 3.229 -0.5 2 1.61 0.006 68.5 125
00:01.500 3.227 -0.5 2 1.61 0.006 68.5 125
00:01.600 3.226 -0.5 3 1.61 0.01 68.5 125
00:01.700 3.224 -0.5 3 1.61 0.01 68.5 125
00:01.800 3.222 -0.5 3 1.61 0.01 68.5 125
00:01.900 3.221 -0.5 3 1.61 0.01 68.5 125
00:02.000 3.219 -0.5 3 1.61 0.01 68.5 125
00:02.100 3.218 -0.5 3 1.61 0.01 68.5 125


The latest 3.2.5 Windows version runs much better under Vista then the previous 3.2.4 version. However 3.2.5 runs a bit slower under Vista then the previous Linux 3.2.4 version under Ubuntu 64-Bit. I think perhaps Vista having more system requirements than Linux/Ubuntu, the Linux Data Explorer has an advantage when run from older PC's.
 
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dssguy1

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Oct 7, 2015
Messages
111
For me, it is how long it takes to characterize the capacity of a battery. The higher one can go in current, it can save a lot of time.

Also, as Albert shows in the picture, why go against physics? It's just not smart if you can take 1-2 hrs and solve it. I bet now if I put a laptop cooler below, this thing will be a fridge :)

So to me, if I love this charger, I want it to have a better life. Like adding something nice to your favorite car.

PS - I bow to your 3800 posts ... just a newbie who once knew heat exchangers very well lol.

1-2 hours!! Try 5-10 minutes, max.
 

chemEJoe

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Feb 9, 2016
Messages
68
1-2 hours!! Try 5-10 minutes, max.

I really enjoy working with my hands, as that's what my dad taught me. These days, it's all about the computer and dealing with people issues. So, I really enjoyed myself and took about 1-2 hrs over 2 days. It's pretty hard to do in 10 minutes with all the choices you get to make.
 

kreisl

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Jul 5, 2012
Messages
2,244
over 2 days.
om*g lol i cannot believe what i am observing here on my XP system. last night i synchronized my WinXP clock with that well-known Win-dialog function, using the "time.nist.gov" server from the drop-down menu. successful. And i was assuming that that clock would be 100% equal to big ben (or my smartphone). so i started my mc3k Refresh program at 22:00:00 o'clock (10p.m. sharp!). I left my PC running over night. Now, only 12 hours later, at 10a.m., i am seeing that my WinXP clock is off by almost 3minutes, ahead!, compared with my smartphone!!! :eek: I can't believe it, because if this continued, it would mean that after 24 hours the WinXP clock would show 22:06 o'clock instead of big ben's 22:00 o'clock. Omg, how inexact is the WinXP clock? Or is it my PC hardware? LOL!!
So i did again the Win-dialog function and watched what happened: Indeed, the WinXP clock was automatically set back by 3mins, now again matching the clock on my smartphone. OM*G!

Wow, that was surprising. I am sure that none of you ever came up with the idea to clock/time/stop your WindowsPC clock running for 1-2 days straight with an external stopwatch/chronograph. I had always thought that my PC clock is nearly as exact like a Swatch or big ben!! By far not! 3min within 12 hours is insane! And hard to believe. And maybe you cannot reproduce this unbelievable result with your brand new Win10 system and brand new hardware. My hardware is from 2010 hh.

Usually at night, i turn off my WinPC completely. The next day, when i boot up the machine, i am guessing that the PC automatically synchronizes time with the time.nist.gov server, and that's how the time stays ~exact for the day being. But the longer the WinPC is running, 10, 24, 30hrs straight, without reboot, you'll see how off the PC clock gets compared to actual time like big ben.

Now the good news. The timestamp on dex log and the lcd timer do represent big ben timing. "The three" (dex, lcd, big ben) were synchronous at 10p.m. yesterday. Right now, the LiIon Refresh program is still running, taking a "snap shot" of the three timers gives:

snapshot said:
pc (right now synchronized with time.nist.gov server): 10:35:00
dex: 2016-03-09 10:35:02.xxx
lcd: TOTAL: 0†12:35:07

So there you have it. Compared to big ben, the mc3k lcd clock runs 7sec faster every ~12hrs (big ben hours). And the time stamp in the dex log is still exact within 1-2sec (also faster!) after 12 big ben hours. After another 12 big ben hours, the dex log should be 3-4sec ahead, and the lcd clock 13-15sec ahead.

In summary, all three timers do slowly drift away from each other. The lcd clock is ~14sec off after 24 big ben hours. I'll accept it. The MSRP of a Swatch is 50,00€. We can't expect a Swiss watch to be ticking in the MC3000.

Apart from the hilarious WinXP clock performance, the other interesting point we're learning in this post is that DEX uses its own "independent" timer and which is more truthful to big ben than the lcd clock. Logically the dex log will look 5sec short (after 12 big ben hours, if Finished) compared with the lcd Finish time.

The next question would be: how does PCLS do the clocking? Does it copy over lcd time, pc time, or does it have its own timer like dex? From my impression, pcls time is very much a copy of lcd time, maybe ±1sec. The *.CSV-log is always few seconds short though, missing a few rows before Finish. That's why i had suggested to make use of C.RESTING and D.RESTING, when doing drop dead serious test runs ("C>", "D>"): If some last rows of the resting routine are missing in the CSV-log, then no prob.

All in all, we have five timers, don't we?


  1. Big Ben / radio controlled clock
  2. WinPC clock
  3. dex log
  4. lcd timer
  5. pcls timer

Summary:
In a perfect world, all 5 would be running synchronously and showing the exact same progress of time. In reality, even Swiss watches need to be re-synchronized after a few months. Among the 5 listed, the worse is the WinPC clock (on my system, at least!). Luckily, neither dex log nor pcls (nor the lcd timer) use the WinPC clock as basis/reference. The mc3k internal clock introduces an error of ~7sec (per 12 big ben hours). The dex log introduces less of such an error, but the dex log might look "incomplete", when you look at the logged time period; Excel gives you the chance though to re-calculate mAh and compare it with the logged mAh value. The truthful value would lie in between i guess. Also note that this post was about logging for straight 12-24 hours. That's when the effect of "diverging timers" begins to play a (minor) role. If you're logging a Discharge for 6 hours, i wouldn't care about a displayed mAh value being "3.5sec off the truth".

1000mA*(3.5/3600)h = 0.97222222222mAh :rolleyes:

I think we're good here. DEX does a great job with the timing and logging. PCLS needs to be fixed with respect to the missing 3-10sec in the CSV-log. And i am accepting that MC3000 does not have a 50€ Swatch inside as clocker. :laughing:
 

Albert_

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Joined
Jan 25, 2016
Messages
115
That's alot of good information about time clock differences, between hardware, firmware and software.

Windows has an Internet Time automatic update setting that can be enabled or disabled. My auto system time update was disabled. There's also a setting to manually update Windows time.

Windows time updates a Bios Real Time Clock (normally has it's own battery). I noticed this bios clock will sometime change by hours when loading another OS such a Linux.

I'm uncertain of the update frequency for Windows time, it may be every 24 hours? PC Bios time I don't think is all that reliable. There are many software programs and services that will run in the background to keep the OS and PC Bios time updated.

Here's a Windows time program I've used since it's initial development.

Nistime ... can be downloaded from: http://www.nist.gov/pml/div688/grp40/its.cfm

Then others such as https://www.meinbergglobal.com/english/sw/ntp.htm

https://www.meinbergglobal.com/english/sw/ntp-server-monitor.htm
 
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Minimoog

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Jan 13, 2005
Messages
771
I have got my machine open and have done the following:

Reversed fan, removed four of the grille bars and also removed some material to allow fan to rotate freely.
Cleaned all the sliders off and ProGold-ed the metal parts
Deburred the sliders
Glued the two broken spring retaining pins (not sure how long the glue will hold though).

Before I re-assemble, is it worth doing anything else? Adding thermal paste to the battery sensors - if so, how? Is it worth cleaning the PCB?

It is a nicely assembled unit, however the snapped plastic pins are something to be aware of if you open the unit.
 
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