SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

[mrQQ]

shoot in the wild. disconnect charger from PC, disactivate bluetooth on phone, reset charger, do a full discharge test run on Eneloop (with D.RESTING: 10min) and stop the time with an external watch. when finished, go into sov and check total time and routine time (10min rest) and compare with your stopwatch. maybe something's off with your mc3k internal clocker.

Here my run of Eneloop -1.00A, CUT TIME: 30min. All 100% perfect:
https://www.sendspace.com/file/ir199q

Ouch I would hate to pay the shipping back to replace it, not to mention the wait time...

 

[MarioJP]

Ouch I would hate to pay the shipping back to replace it, not to mention the wait time...

The fact both of my chargers has the fan backwards. I did thought about it. But you are right. Not worth the wait time and shipping fees. I mean, It still cools for the most part. I guess that's the price we pay for being early adopters lol.

 

[Minimoog]

Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 / CES 2016 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

I guess kreisl forgot to put "don't push on the middle of the fan when seating the fan". Or maybe he considered that obvious.... Good luck finding a 15v replacement fan. If it is running fine with no noise, I would leave it alone, just my opinion though. You could put a couple dabs of super glue on the supports if they are still somewhat intact.

How about adding 5 diodes in series to give 12.0v to the fan?

 

[billcushman]

Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 / CES 2016 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

The reversed fan gives improved cooling. With the downward fan direction cooling is adequate for a discharge of 4 fully charged 18650s at .8A. With the upward fan direction the cooling is adequate for discharge of four fully charged 18650s at .9A to.95A. When the starting system temperature is below 70℉, 1A discharge will not have current limiting.

For the longest component life it is best to not discharge four fully charged 18650s at more than .8A. Discharge results are not much different at .5A or .2C (.68A for 3400mAh cells). This works fine with either fan direction and is much easier on the charger. Heat is the enemy of long component life.

Discharge of four fully charged 18650s takes over 3 hours. Maximum temperature is reached at 30 to 40 minutes of discharge. Meaningful reduction of the system temperature requires about two hours.

Those users who have cut out the grill have better results because axial fans do not support air flow restrictions very well. I personally don't like cutting out the grill.

 

[bosko90]

In DEX beita dc 2016-03-01 the timing is now perfectly correct, no more delays during START and or during the program, i am testing it right now. Important to note, one needs to deinstall/uninstall the previous DEX version completely; the file MC3000.jar will then be deleted too. The new installation will contain a file called SkyRC.jar which has the fixed code. A file named MC3000.jar is no more part of the package bye.

My sincere thanks fly out to the DEX main programmer Winne who is, and always was, highly motivated to improve the open software! He is fully dedicated and focused on the DEX development project :thumbsup:

EDIT: Check the box "Continuous record set" on the "Miscellaneous"-tab under "Preferences" and you will get a continuous graph over Total Time, same as PCLS graphs logs.

:thumbsup: sounds good
I only find 3.2.4 version. So that will have to wait.

Another strange thing. why do not stop charging the NiMh battery? I Charging one new AAA complet (none of them isn't stopped) and one old AA complet (only 1 stopped). Delta peak is 3 mV and charging current is 300 mA.. Do you think it is bad battery?

 

[billcushman]

Another strange thing. why do not stop charging the NiMh battery? I Charging one new AAA complet (none of them isn't stopped) and one old AA complet (only 1 stopped). Delta peak is 3 mV and charging current is 300 mA.. Do you think it is bad battery?

To get an adequate -dV/dt signal you should charge at a minimum of .5C. Try .45A for the AAA and 1A for the AA. If they still don't terminate properly, try reducing the delta peak to 2mv or 1mv. As an alternative you could terminate on voltage.

 

[bosko90]

ok i will try. it's strange to me because my previus charger (everactive nc1000) is terminate normaly at charging current 200 mA on AA battery

 

[HKJ]

ok i will try. it's strange to me because my previus charger (everactive nc1000) is terminate normaly at charging current 200 mA on AA battery

Try reading this article: http://lygte-info.dk/info/batteryChargingNiMH UK.html

 

[tjh]

ok i will try. it's strange to me because my previus charger (everactive nc1000) is terminate normaly at charging current 200 mA on AA battery

You old charger probably terminates on voltage, or doesn't let you charge with a C rating low enough to stop the -dv/dt signal. Voltage is a "safe" and easy way to terminate, but will leave the battery not at full capacity. Which is why most chargers that terminate on voltage then apply a "top up" charge. The reference for this is the great C9000, it almost always terminates on v1.48 then applies a 100ma charge for 2 hours.

The MC3000 supports "proper" -dv/dt termination, but as mentioned for a battery to give the -dv/dt signal you must charge it at an appropriate current, usually 0.5C.

But again, the great thing about the MC3000 is you can adjust its parameters if you want to make it terminate on v1.48, or v1.50 or whatever you want. Or you can set a maximum charge timeout, so you know if you're going to charge at 0.3C then you want a timeout of ~4 hours so you don't overcharge. You can adjust the -dv/dt signal required for the charger to trigger end-of-charge.

So in the process of giving you an insane amount of flexibility, it does open some corner cases where it's possible to miss NiMH termination because of the settings used. This isn't the chargers fault

 

[mrQQ]

shoot in the wild. disconnect charger from PC, disactivate bluetooth on phone, reset charger, do a full discharge test run on Eneloop (with D.RESTING: 10min) and stop the time with an external watch. when finished, go into sov and check total time and routine time (10min rest) and compare with your stopwatch. maybe something's off with your mc3k internal clocker.

Here my run of Eneloop -1.00A, CUT TIME: 30min. All 100% perfect:
https://www.sendspace.com/file/ir199q

I think there is something wrong with monitor app. I took a look at it's time counter, and it seems to skip two seconds each minute. As in, it jumps from :04 to :06 for example.

edit: perhaps not, even though it jumps seconds on display, its minute still takes a real minute.

 

[chemEJoe]

Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 / CES 2016 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

When this kind of stuff happens, try once more and see if you get a more reasonable value.

@HKJ:

Great to see you here and I have some questions for you in battery tests.

I just tested 12 NCR18650B protecteds and found your review very helpful !!! thank you.

On those, you noted the target cutoff should be 2.5v, but the protection would cut off at 2.75v.
I set it to 2.5v and ending current at 0.06A.
I noted that the charger did take it down to 2.5v without a cutoff. Should the protection stop the discharge at 2.75v? Does this mean that those protection circuits are not working? Your tests were run at 2.8v limit, so I cannot tell what the charger/battery protection should be doing.

For 12 tested (I am building bike battery packs for myself and a friend), I got 1 dud that was clearly corroded on the outside. Have no idea why they would ship that. Others are fine. I will post data later if anyone here are interested.

@kreisl:

Thank you too!

I cleaned the grease off the rails with QTips, and you are 100% right. It does cause IR problems and in my prev discussion with you, I had not understood the rails actually provide contact to the sliding 'bookend' contact. So, the grease indeed is in the circuit. By pressing hard to seat the battery and having the rails cleaned, the IRs are now between 80-110mohm, vs some at 80-90 and others at 130-250 mohm. Very interesting. Thank you, and I will take the unit apart to do the mod on fan and other cleanups (more thermal grease to heat sinks, clean the underside of the rails, soften sharp edges ...). I would think over time, if the grease picks up dirt, the IR would be more inconsistent so the clean you recommended is right by me.

 

[chemEJoe]

Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 / CES 2016 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

The reversed fan gives improved cooling. ... I personally don't like cutting out the grill.

Bill,

I will be reversing the fan because it will last longer if it is used less. The differences noted here are quite a lot by the T's quoted. It's not just temp, but the heat that goes with it and that heat load is wear and tear on the fan.

Also, I agree on the grill. But it can be easy to put a different grill over the hole to keep a finger out and allow free airflow. So many options at the hardware store and a pair of tin snips. I will probably try for that. I don't even think it needs a finger width ... even 1" spacing ok because all one needs is to block your hand in case you want to pick it up while charging (v rare case).

 

[Joe Kidd]

Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 / CES 2016 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

2650+ posts. The manufacturer should take note of all the revisional engineering and thank all you guys and the site as well! :twothumbs

 

[billcushman]

Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 / CES 2016 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

Bill,

I will be reversing the fan because it will last longer if it is used less. The differences noted here are quite a lot by the T's quoted. It's not just temp, but the heat that goes with it and that heat load is wear and tear on the fan.

The fan is seldom required except for high power discharge. With the downward fan, all air flowing over the fan is hot. With the upward fan, air flowing over the fan is cool. The fan is a brushless fan, and its life should be many thousand of hours.

Here is a link to the specs for a typical 30x30x7mm fan. Life is quoted as 30,000 hours.
http://www.bedek.de/files/luefter-technik/fan_search/datasheets/m-fan-datasheet-DA03007.pdf

 

[HKJ]

Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 / CES 2016 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

@HKJ:

Great to see you here and I have some questions for you in battery tests.

I just tested 12 NCR18650B protecteds and found your review very helpful !!! thank you.

On those, you noted the target cutoff should be 2.5v, but the protection would cut off at 2.75v.
I set it to 2.5v and ending current at 0.06A.
I noted that the charger did take it down to 2.5v without a cutoff. Should the protection stop the discharge at 2.75v? Does this mean that those protection circuits are not working? Your tests were run at 2.8v limit, so I cannot tell what the charger/battery protection should be doing.

For 12 tested (I am building bike battery packs for myself and a friend), I got 1 dud that was clearly corroded on the outside. Have no idea why they would ship that. Others are fine. I will post data later if anyone here are interested.

Protection chips exist with different protection voltages, the best is to select one that is slightly below the minimum discharge voltage. Most manufacturers looks like they do not know what protection chip they select and may very well use different chips in different batches of cells (A guess, I have not checked this).
I did test a few protections here: http://lygte-info.dk/info/DischargeProtectionTest UK.html
To check if the protection works you basically needs to run the cell down to 1.9 volt. It is safe to do this, but you must charge the cell slowly afterwards and the cell may loose some capacity.

 

[chemEJoe]

Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 / CES 2016 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

The fan is seldom required except for high power discharge. With the downward fan, all air flowing over the fan is hot. With the upward fan, air flowing over the fan is cool. The fan is a brushless fan, and its life should be many thousand of hours.

Here is a link to the specs for a typical 30x30x7mm fan. Life is quoted as 30,000 hours.
http://www.bedek.de/files/luefter-technik/fan_search/datasheets/m-fan-datasheet-DA03007.pdf

Thanks for the fan info, I didn't know it was brushless, I'm old tech I guess. Still it is the moving parts.

My fan is on pretty much continuously for the D cycle at -.65A on Li Ion 18650s. It is keeping systemp about 60-70 deg (I am not logging yet so just spot checking. The Android 2.8 app is great, but the Bluetooth range is about 8 ft, so I cannot check it from my desk (I don't want to lave that thing on with all my papers on my desk, in case I have an accident .

So, I think the fan is a needed thing, and if it's just a temp delta, that would be fine. But the heat in that temp delta with the heat capacities of the different heat holders in the system means that fan is working hard over the life of any discharge uses. That's all I'm saying, it's probably worth it to mod it if people don't want to find a fan years later. Me, I know once I get to use it and understand it, I probably don't have time to come back to play with the unit. What I love is I can play with the unit to eval my battery buys/recycles in years to come. That part of my use of 'green' batteries has always been bugging me, and now with this charger and this forum, I understand what to do to be more green. Those AAA throwaways add up to environmental damage.

 

[chemEJoe]

Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 / CES 2016 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

Protection chips exist with different protection voltages .... Most manufacturers looks like they do not know what protection chip they select and may very well use different chips in different batches of cells (A guess, I have not checked this).

Thank you HKJ!

This is the battery that I'm working with, from GB:

http://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Panasonic NCR18650B Protected 3400mAh (Green) UK.html

Your tip that they may use different circuits hit the mark then. Perhaps these do not cut off at 2.75v as your quote of specs noted (and I guess that's what you meant by not all the data was right, thank you for this discussion then.)

I did test a few protections here: http://lygte-info.dk/info/DischargeProtectionTest UK.html
To check if the protection works you basically needs to run the cell down to 1.9 volt. It is safe to do this, but you must charge the cell slowly afterwards and the cell may loose some capacity.

Hmmm, I'll probably not test this to that level, as I just wanted to understand what I have and learn to use and maintain these batteries. I don't mind losing capacity (and V from the protection circuit) because I am just happy to not be blindly using a $200 bike light that doesn't perform as well or is not as safe as a $18 light from China + these batteries and charger.

I read your discharge protection link and that was fine work.

Overall, I will take your input that the specs are wrong in places and possibly this battery is set to trip low v at 2.5 instead of 2.75. Also, noted is your comment that the manuf may be using different protection circuits between batches. That then means this charger and battery are behaving normally as expected, I thank you for the assurance. Is that what you meant?

I haven't gotten to the point of understanding the pulse method to recover a tripped protection circuit, but I take it if I take out the battery (say it tripped in the field) and put it in the charger, the charging algorithms will do their job to reset the protection?

Thank you for conversing with me, a newbie. You guys, all of you, are amazing. I hope over time I can contribute back.

 

[HKJ]

Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 / CES 2016 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

Overall, I will take your input that the specs are wrong in places and possibly this battery is set to trip low v at 2.5 instead of 2.75. Also, noted is your comment that the manuf may be using different protection circuits between batches. That then means this charger and battery are behaving normally as expected, I thank you for the assurance. Is that what you meant?

Yes.

I haven't gotten to the point of understanding the pulse method to recover a tripped protection circuit, but I take it if I take out the battery (say it tripped in the field) and put it in the charger, the charging algorithms will do their job to reset the protection?

Not all chargers will do that, sometimes you have to do it manually:

 

[dssguy1]

The reversed fan gives improved cooling. With the downward fan direction cooling is adequate for a discharge of 4 fully charged 18650s at .8A. With the upward fan direction the cooling is adequate for discharge of four fully charged 18650s at .9A to.95A. When the starting system temperature is below 70℉, 1A discharge will not have current limiting.

For the longest component life it is best to not discharge four fully charged 18650s at more than .8A. Discharge results are not much different at .5A or .2C (.68A for 3400mAh cells). This works fine with either fan direction and is much easier on the charger. Heat is the enemy of long component life.

Discharge of four fully charged 18650s takes over 3 hours. Maximum temperature is reached at 30 to 40 minutes of discharge. Meaningful reduction of the system temperature requires about two hours.

Those users who have cut out the grill have better results because axial fans do not support air flow restrictions very well. I personally don't like cutting out the grill.

I get nowhere near your temps so maybe just stick to making comments about your own charger.

67 degrees max on my charger at 4 x 1amp.

Difference could be the removed grill mod. Guess you will never know if you don't do it? Why so adverse to removing the grill? It's not like you need to move the charger around while it's working.

 

[chemEJoe]

Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 / CES 2016 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

Not all chargers will do that, sometimes you have to do it manually:

Ha ha, very cool. I guess this is the trick they teach on youtubes to revive one's power drill battery packs. Thanks.

I read earlier on this thread that the MC3000 has that pulse mode, so if it's what you mean, I'll learn it when I get there. This is relating to that NiMH bug that may or may not be fixed in the new upcoming firmware, where one has to reboot the charger to get pulse mode back.