SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

kreisl

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but must've shorted something out while putting it back together since now I get the following error from the ADC (MCP3424-1 Err).
hi maukka, sorry to hear about the failed reassembly.
This error is not listed in the manual and afaik there is nothing a common user could do to reset it with a simple procedure or so. If you contact sky they'll probably ask you to send it in for component replacement or something, a repair that would cost something :crazy:

I have a spare too :paypal:
 

cpa

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Anyone knows what differences has the Uk plug version, US plug version & EU plug version??
I mean, I guess the power adaptor is the same and only change the power cord, doesn't it??

I'm asking this because the price for the UK, US & AU versions are the same, but the EU version is different, and I don't know why???
Maybe it would be a typical Gearbest mistake (you can find the same product with different price on their own web)...

What do you think???
 

B-2Admirer

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lol Fake News (not by me!) about the alleged charging problem with NiZn batteries. all firmware versions behave the same correctly. the problem was the condition of the batteries, their chemistry was dormant. after cycling the batteries 5 times the charging is now proceeding as perfectly as expected and also terminates as it should.

clearly, there is no problem with the NiZn charging algorithm or termination in the firmware. :ironic:

I am glad that i was able to demystify the 'issue' :rolleyes:

so if you guys work with NiZn, watch out for dormant specimen and cycle them 5 times (or more), for example with -0.50A/0.50A, and check how their condition improves as can be read from the charger's behavior, the graphs in pcls or dex. EDIT3: and charge with an appropriate charging rate, not too high; the lower the better for every party involved. basically i am saying that NiZn batteries *uck :devil:, lol.

this is my official all-clear. and i am deleting the k# from de list (EDIT1: done. moving on, bye). thanks for your attention.

EDIT2: squirrels are awesome :twothumbs
So the problem was just cells being unable to reach the measured (not displayed or actual) target voltage of 1.9 V? If yes, I have observed it with at least one cell way back when I got the charger, which was (notably) still uncalibrated at that point and mentioned it here. My solution, as described in this very thread, was just lowering the target voltage to the level at which the supposedly problematic cell would behave the same way as the rest of them. I assume it would work for your cells, too, would it not?

After I calibrated the charger, my NiZn cells much more predictable when charging to 1.9 V and the capacity readings started making a lot more sense...
 

Eliobell

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Hello everyone, I am a new member to the forum and I write from Italy.
Sorry for my poor English!

From about 30 days I am a possessor of a Sky Rc MC3000 and I am very well.
I use it to charge AA and AAA batteries and 18650.

I always suspected that the DV mode to end the charging of NIMH
tends to put stress on the batteries and I made some programs to end
the charge with the cut-volt mode, set to 1,54V.

Mostly I use AA and AAA Panasonic eneloop 2500 and 930 mah and
Programs are as follows =

AA = Disch. 400mah; 0,90 term; D.reduce 0.05; rest 3 '; 800mah Charge; Cut V. 1.54, 0.01 trickle to end.
AAA = Disch. 200mAh; 0,90 term; D.reduce 0.04; Rest 2 '; 300mah Charge; Cut V. 1.54, 0.01 trickle to end.

I use current at low amperage to avoid warming the batteries because I think the heat
It is one of the causes that deteriorate.
So far I am very well with these programs, but frankly I do not know exactly if this procedure is fine
for my batteries.
Is there any expert who can tell me if there is anything wrong with that?
 

sbj

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Feb 19, 2017
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Were your batteries hot when you charged them with -ΔV detection?
Did you notice a difference in the discharge capacity between these two charging methods?
 

cpa

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Anyone knows what differences has the Uk plug version, US plug version & EU plug version??
I mean, I guess the power adaptor is the same and only change the power cord, doesn't it??

Ok... I've got reply from SkyRC... Here you have, if you are interesting in this question as well
SkyRC said:
Hello,

Thanks for your support to SkyRC!
Yes, the power adaptor for MC3000 is the same but with different cable for different region.


Thank you
Best Regards
Phoebe Sun

Regards!
 

kreisl

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So the problem was just cells being unable
The problem was the high internal resistance of my small aged nizn batteries 130mO. At such a high resistance and high charging rates say 0.75A and higher, the voltage of discharged AA's would reach 1.90V within tens of seconds and then the algorithm would need to counteract the fast rising voltage with a steep amperage drop at the beginning of the CV-phase, then the current could be raised again to keep the voltage stable and eventually everything would calm down and settle and slip into a nicely decreasing current graph as expected. Depending on the parameters of your system such behavior is in fact predictable and could be modeled through process dynamics and control theory. With nizn batt ir there seems to be a critical dimensionless system variable composed of batt ir batt chemistry and charging current and other quantities which separates the normal CC-CV behavior from the aforementioned control theory response behavior. One doesn't need to go into theory or modeling or dimensional analysis lol, it'd be sufficient for all intents and purposes to conduct a series of systematic experiments to narrow down the boundaries of dimensionless number. Someone might find this observation interesting because we never observed such a control response with liion batteries no matter their batt ir and high charging rate. I am not sure if you guys really know what the term modeling in this kind of engineering simply means. Modeling in engineering means in the end practically nothing but setting up a mathematical model which in turn means nothing but setting up a concise system of partial differential equations which are capable of describing the entire system's behavior in the past, present and future, typically in a clear elegant way. In RL there is no explicit solution in equation form but when you feed the system to raspbian mathematica the numeric solver would at least suggest one solution in graphical form pretty amazing. It's a welcome exercise for sophomores but we can safely skip to the take-home message: nizn, when old or unconditioned, should be charged with a low charge rate, then the charging will go as expected. unless proven otherwise by an academic journal paper lol.

Sorry for the speech but sometimes i enjoy hearing myself talking lol :crackup:
 

Eliobell

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Were your batteries hot when you charged them with -ΔV detection?
Did you notice a difference in the discharge capacity between these two charging methods?

The capacity obtained with Delta V terminator and with cut V. 1.54 is pretty much the same:
for filled cells the average are = AA disch. 2520 mah, carghe 2580mah; AAA discharge 940, charge 980, but the method
delta peak, in the 2 or 3 minutes before the end of charging the batteries become a bit hot and for
this the DV method does not convince me. With volt cut there's not overheating.
 

B-2Admirer

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Sorry for the speech but sometimes i enjoy hearing myself talking lol :crackup:
Well, for that you would have to read your post(s) aloud, wouldn't you? :wave:

Anyway, 0.75A (more than 0.5C for AA NiZn cells) is way beyond the standard NiZn charge rate of 0.2C and while they do support fast charge at up to 1C according to the documentation, the effect of the higher charge rate on their longevity has not been independently studied, so I would never go above the standard charge rate except in real need. My NiZn AAA cells are doing well, by the way, though I don't use them heavily and always store charged.
 

sbj

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Feb 19, 2017
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The capacity obtained with Delta V terminator and with cut V. 1.54 is pretty much the same:...
Equal capacitance, or equal charge voltage at the moment of charge disconnection by the Deltapeak detection. This would be also my recommendation for the correct charging voltage with the same charge current for the cut-volt method. Apparently, you've hit that value exactly when the capacity is nearly equal and the heating is lower. - That's perfect! :twothumbs

See also the table of HKJ: http://lygte-info.dk/info/batteryChargingNiMH UK.html

Only what surprised me is, that your batteries with the Delta Peak method with 0.3C charging current and 3mV? Delta Peak get hot! They should only be hand warm when charging. This are a standard recommendation. Then I would not have any concerns about their durability.

I'm also amazed by the extraordinary charge efficiency you have determined. This is the best confirmation for a gentle loading. :)

Thus this method of loading would be an interesting test task for AA Cycler: http://aacycler.com/about/how/

In practice - The main questions with the cut-volt method are:
Does the charging voltage have to be set differently at different ambient temperatures?
Is the setting also correct for old batteries or batteries of other manufacturers?
How much longer is the charging time, through the top off charge?
Is the extra effort worth at all, if one can assume, that most batteries are broken by normal aging rather than by cycles?

You may find some information on this in the Maha 9000 thread.

This is an interesting topic, which you will surely keep us informed about. You have the right charger for this. :D
 

Eliobell

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In practice - The main questions with the cut-volt method are:
Does the charging voltage have to be set differently at different ambient temperatures?
Is the setting also correct for old batteries or batteries of other manufacturers?
How much longer is the charging time, through the top off charge?
Is the extra effort worth at all, if one can assume, that most batteries are broken by normal aging rather than by cycles?

You may find some information on this in the Maha 9000 thread.

This is an interesting topic, which you will surely keep us informed about. You have the right charger for this. :D[/QUOTE]

Thank you for the reply.
Yours are all good questions!
I got cut to 1.54 volts for eneloop after tests in 1.49 1.50 1.51 1.51 1.53 1.54 and 1.55,
and after seeing the various tests that the peak delta always intervenes between 1.54 and 1.55 V. At this point I
asked myself: "Why stress the batteries for those minutes in charge to 1.54 / 1.55 to trip the Delta Peak, when
now the maximum load has been reached? " I think for the good of batteries, when they reach 1,54v is right to stop immediately
the charge.
 

usrnam

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Re: 2nd gen dreamcharger presented on IFA Berlin 2014…

I purchased a MC3000 some time ago. It was used to charge a few 18650 batteries. Until recently I hadn't had the time to explore various functions and features.

I recently purchased new Lithium AAA, AA and 18650's.

Before charging and testing i would like to upgrade the firmware. I'm currently at firmware version 1.11. At first glance it appears all that needs to be done is connect USB to MC3000 and run the firmware update exe file, then wait for the firmware update to finish?

Any reason to upgrade to version 1.12 before version 1.13?
 
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tjh

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Re: 2nd gen dreamcharger presented on IFA Berlin 2014…

I purchased a MC3000 some time ago. It was used to charge a few 18650 batteries. Until recently I hadn't had the time to explore various functions and features.

I recently purchased new Lithium AAA, AA and 18650's.

Before charging and testing i would like to upgrade the firmware. I'm currently at firmware version 1.11. At first glance it appears all that needs to be done is connect USB to MC3000 and run the firmware update exe file, then wait for the firmware update to finish?

Any reason to upgrade to version 1.12 before version 1.13?
No. Just upgrade to 1.13.
 

usrnam

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Re: 2nd gen dreamcharger presented on IFA Berlin 2014…

Ok thanks, Ill go ahead and install the 1.13 version update
____

While searching for Lithium batteries I found a good deal on some brand new (8 x) Panasonic NCR18650B's. Previously I'd been salvaging 18650s from new and used laptop battery packs. I'm uncertain if the Panasonic's are protected or not. I believe at least some are temperature protected when leaving the factory. Other protection(s) may be added by vendors after leaving the factory.

I also came across some of the less expensive (not sure where made, most likely China) 18650 3.7V batteries that boast a 5000 mAh capacity. From what i've read many of these after testing actual capacity is somewhere under 500 mAh.

___

After a full charge tried a discharge at 1/2 amp, results is the mAh capacity = 520. I assumed these would be a low capacity but wasn't certain how low.

__

Wondering if there's any foreseeable future update for the MC3000 monitor software to resize the menu screens? After trying various video resolution came to the conclusion the monitor software becomes useless when used under Vista x64 driving a 32" Nec LCD monitor. Won't display correctly in any of the available resolutions.
 
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kreisl

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Re: 2nd gen dreamcharger presented on IFA Berlin 2014…

At first glance it appears all that needs to be done is connect USB to MC3000 and run the firmware update exe file
basically that's how it goes yes, that's how i do it on my system (OS, cable, charger).

the detailed instructions are in the readme.txt good luck
 

Ravel

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The capacity obtained with Delta V terminator and with cut V. 1.54 is pretty much the same:
for filled cells the average are = AA disch. 2520 mah, carghe 2580mah; AAA discharge 940, charge 980, but the method
delta peak, in the 2 or 3 minutes before the end of charging the batteries become a bit hot and for
this the DV method does not convince me. With volt cut there's not overheating.

Why dont you stop on capacity?
I've come to the conclusion not to stress too much the cells to cut
on max capacity -10 or 15% (even if I have not cycled them enough for an experimental proof)

Capacity would be more reliable and more accurate than voltage cut
 

usrnam

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The lithium AA & AAA I purchased are Energizer non-rechargeable. (I do have some rechargeable NiMH) After looking into rechargeable Lithium AA and AAA I found the ones available to be too expensive, nearly ~40 dollars for a set of four and require a specialized charger.

The method used to charge these rechargeable Lithium AA & AAA I found interesting. They're designed with 1.5 volt center post output and a ~4 volt outer charging ring input.

Their charger is USB with specialized contacts for the outer ring charging voltage input.

The manufacture is KENTLI.

There are a few less expensive brands a set of four runs from ~$20.00 to ~$25.00. Specifications show can be charged 500 times.
 
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silviop

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Gatt protocol.

Skyrc mc3000 is bluetooth LE capable (GATT), there is documentation about
API to write bluetooth code ?


An example of gatt comunication with mc3000:

gatttool -b E0:E5:CF:1D:6D:51 -I
[E0:E5:CF:1D:6D:51][LE]> connect
Attempting to connect to E0:E5:CF:1D:6D:51
Connection successful
[E0:E5:CF:1D:6D:51][LE]> char-desc
handle: 0x0001, uuid: 00002800-0000-1000-8000-00805f9b34fb
handle: 0x0002, uuid: 00002803-0000-1000-8000-00805f9b34fb
handle: 0x0003, uuid: 00002a00-0000-1000-8000-00805f9b34fb
handle: 0x0004, uuid: 00002803-0000-1000-8000-00805f9b34fb
handle: 0x0005, uuid: 00002a01-0000-1000-8000-00805f9b34fb
handle: 0x0006, uuid: 00002803-0000-1000-8000-00805f9b34fb
handle: 0x0007, uuid: 00002a02-0000-1000-8000-00805f9b34fb
handle: 0x0008, uuid: 00002803-0000-1000-8000-00805f9b34fb
handle: 0x0009, uuid: 00002a03-0000-1000-8000-00805f9b34fb
handle: 0x000a, uuid: 00002803-0000-1000-8000-00805f9b34fb
handle: 0x000b, uuid: 00002a04-0000-1000-8000-00805f9b34fb
handle: 0x000c, uuid: 00002800-0000-1000-8000-00805f9b34fb
handle: 0x000d, uuid: 00002803-0000-1000-8000-00805f9b34fb
handle: 0x000e, uuid: 00002a05-0000-1000-8000-00805f9b34fb
handle: 0x000f, uuid: 00002902-0000-1000-8000-00805f9b34fb
handle: 0x0010, uuid: 00002800-0000-1000-8000-00805f9b34fb
handle: 0x0011, uuid: 00002803-0000-1000-8000-00805f9b34fb
handle: 0x0012, uuid: 0000ffe1-0000-1000-8000-00805f9b34fb
handle: 0x0013, uuid: 00002902-0000-1000-8000-00805f9b34fb
handle: 0x0014, uuid: 00002901-0000-1000-8000-00805f9b34fb
[E0:E5:CF:1D:6D:51][LE]>
 

kreisl

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Re: Gatt protocol.

there is documentation about
API to write bluetooth code ?

it is not posted anywhere public nor do i have it

while i believe that sky does not have a strict anti-share policy of mc3k code or documentation see dex, i also believe that the additional generated support load would be a lot to handle, maybe too much and unwarranted at this point. just guessing out of the blue :huh:

afaik you are the first and so far the only to ask about ble api :ironic:

not enough demand i guess to risk opening up a potential pandora's
qq0400cu36.gif


btw i've seen some mc3k api before and i understood sh*t. the doc produced more questions in my head :confused: than it answered questions about the description. it was either useless to me this way, or i would have had to bombard sky with tons of questions regarding the doc. you can guess what i did
 
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