U.S. lithium production

[aznsx]

Thank you for reminding us what this thread is even about.

 

[aznsx]

But if push comes to shove, and the only other place we can get lithium is China and things worsen, we'll see what happens.

It's another of those letter things man:

ABC

Anywhere But China.

ATA (aside from the noted exception) may be another fitting one.

All The Above (or at least several)

Those wiser than I am advised me to 'never put all my eggs in one basket'.

 

[IMA SOL MAN]

Can't blame them. The mining industry doesn't exactly have a great track record cleaning up after itself. The company will get all the profits, while the state's taxpayers will be on the hook cleaning up the mess they left behind.

https://www.tehistory.org/hqda/pdf/v46/v46n1p010.pdf

 

[idleprocess]

Sodium-ion batteries

Nearly a reality as these are at least in sampling, but their characteristics are challenging for motor vehicle operation.

More sustainable mining techniques

Sure. But for all the special concern expressed about the novel concept of lithium extraction I've noted an absence of concern for status quo resource extraction. Lithium is at least used in durable goods and readily recylable.

Reduce the need for lithium

Market acceptance is what it is. The perfect is the enemy of the good.

Space mining of asteroids

We'll need dirt-cheap nuclear fusion to make shuffling that kind of mass around economical ... at which point we'll likely not need to go into space to get lithium

Mine lithium from sea water

Practical, albeit requires sweeping a goodly volume of water.

 

[IMA SOL MAN]

That's a pretty depressing outlook. We might as well all jump off a building if we're going to stop trying to make things better.

All we engineers can do is offer solutions. If society is too stupid or stubborn to use them, well, what can I say? Maybe humanity deserves to go extinct.

So we all should just shut up and sit in the corner, while the engineers, who know what is best for everyone, run the world. HA! FAT F-N CHANCE!

 

[Poppy]

That's a pretty depressing outlook. We might as well all jump off a building if we're going to stop trying to make things better.

All we engineers can do is offer solutions. If society is too stupid or stubborn to use them, well, what can I say? Maybe humanity deserves to go extinct.

As I meant to imply, and I may be incorrect, but I think that there is a concern that China is the main supplier of Li. We may be held to their whims of supply.

Just as Biden has made efforts to bring the production of certain chips to the US to eliminate certain supply chain issues, I wanted to bring to light the fact that we too (The USA) have certain deposits of Li. They may or may not be currently mined, but that there is the possibility that they can be.

I am somewhat comfortable knowing that those deposits exist on US soil.

 

[jtr1962]

So we all should just shut up and sit in the corner, while the engineers, who know what is best for everyone, run the world. HA! FAT F-N CHANCE!

Not at all. Let the engineers and scientists vet out the best candidates, then society can decide which of them to fund further. In the end, as much as you enjoy disparaging those who are knowledgeable about certain subjects, it's exactly this expertise which enabled you to enjoy whatever device you're using to post. Ditto for not being reliant upon animals to do work or travel. Same for having a relatively inexpensive, reliable food supply. And medical care.

I'm one of the few people in this thread offering some concrete solutions. Some are viable now, others may be in the future. I don't appreciate being crapped on all the time. I've said elsewhere maybe all the "experts" should just decide to disappear for a few months. The grid will shut down, food production will stop, the hospitals will close, millions of people will be dead in short order.

How's it working out now with the people currently running the world? Not great from where I stand. Truth be told, when it's advanced enough I'd just as soon put AI in charge.

 

[jtr1962]

As I meant to imply, and I may be incorrect, but I think that there is a concern that China is the main supplier of Li. We may be held to their whims of supply.

And I agree wholeheartedly. We're WAY too dependent upon China for lots of stuff. We're way too dependent on "friendly" countries for even more stuff. The US can't even build most of its trains. We lack the ability to design and build electric locomotives, just as one example. Amtrak had to source the ACS-64 out to Siemans. This all goes beyond lithium and climate change. It's a national security issue.

Just as Biden has made efforts to bring the production of certain chips to the US to eliminate certain supply chain issues, I wanted to bring to light the fact that we too (The USA) have certain deposits of Li. They may or may not be currently mined, but that there is the possibility that they can be.

I salute Biden for finally tackling this problem but guess what? It might fail anyway due to a lack of suitable employees:

Reshoring Semiconductor Manufacturing: Addressing the Workforce Challenge

Despite new investment in domestic chip-making, chip makers encounter a shortage of construction workers to build new facilities and a lack of qualified workers to run them. This report discusses increasing development of U.S. talent toward semiconductor chip production.

www.csis.org

"They are encountering a significant challenge: a shortage of construction workers needed to build the new facilities and a lack of qualified workers to run them."

Unfortunately, decades of US policy making higher education more expensive and difficult means there are simply not enough Americans qualified to run these plants. The chickens from years of anti-education policy coming out of Washington are finally coming home to roost. I wonder how many other things we try to do domestically will be affected by this?

TSMC Arizona chip plant behind schedule; US workers blamed

Construction work on TSMC’s Arizona chip plant, which is set to make chips for some older Apple devices, has run...

9to5mac.com

Remember, you only have to go back maybe 50 or 60 years to find a time when the US led in virtually every field. WTF happened?

I am somewhat comfortable knowing that those deposits exist on US soil.

Same here. The fact they are means they can eventually be exploited if need be. Ditto for the rare earths. That's another thing we are too dependent on China for.

 

[IMA SOL MAN]

Not at all. Let the engineers and scientists vet out the best candidates, then society can decide which of them to fund further. In the end, as much as you enjoy disparaging those who are knowledgeable about certain subjects, it's exactly this expertise which enabled you to enjoy whatever device you're using to post. Ditto for not being reliant upon animals to do work or travel. Same for having a relatively inexpensive, reliable food supply. And medical care.

I'm one of the few people in this thread offering some concrete solutions. Some are viable now, others may be in the future. I don't appreciate being crapped on all the time. I've said elsewhere maybe all the "experts" should just decide to disappear for a few months. The grid will shut down, food production will stop, the hospitals will close, millions of people will be dead in short order.

How's it working out now with the people currently running the world? Not great from where I stand. Truth be told, when it's advanced enough I'd just as soon put AI in charge.

See, that is the kind of statement that tells everyone that you and people who think like you, are dangerous. You utopians always think you are so smart, and have the answers to how things should be run. It ends up with a war, and a lot of people dying.

Engineers and scientists can be great people, and right now, I'm really appreciating the engineers and workers that built my central air conditioning system that is allowing me to survive in relative comfort. Today, even relatively poor people in the USA can live in better comfort and luxury than royalty of the past. But, engineers and scientists need to stay in their lane, and do only what they are tasked with, not freelancing and going off on some utopian pipe dream.

 

[idleprocess]

Insofar as present lithium suppliers go, per Reuters the heavy hitters are:

• Australia
• Brazil
• Chile
• Argentina
• China

The aspect of Li production that China has the relative lock on is refining, with something like 60% of the world's capacity. They also control something like ~80% of the world's Li-* cell production, be it the Li-ion more familiar in the industrial world or lower-density (but cheaper and longer-lasting) LFP.

 

[Poppy]

Not at all. Let the engineers and scientists vet out the best candidates, then society can decide which of them to fund further.

You're a scientist or engineer, I forget which one. Much of the US population is challenged beyond the reading comprehension level, of third grade. Some people, many people, elected George Santos as their representative. Need I say more?

 

[jtr1962]

Sure. But for all the special concern expressed about the novel concept of lithium extraction I've noted an absence of concern for status quo resource extraction. Lithium is at least used in durable goods and readily recylable.

Totally agree. I'm willing to accept "dirty" lithium extraction here in the US given that it's infinitely recyclable but at the same time those directly affected by it have every right to try to stop it. At this point I think extracting it from seawater is the best short-term solution.

Market acceptance is what it is. The perfect is the enemy of the good.

Of course but preferences are malleable through advertising. I recall when SUVs first come out most people said they were ugly and pointless. Then Detroit saturated us were ad after ad pushing SUVs. It could do the same pushing smaller vehicles. Streamlining IS sexy. Tastes change. I'm not saying it can be done overnight, but over 5 to 10 years, definitely. A great selling point is such vehicles have far lower operating and purchase costs.

We'll need dirt-cheap nuclear fusion to make shuffling that kind of mass around economical ... at which point we'll likely not need to go into space to get lithium.

Point taken. Most of the impetus to mine asteroids involves getting the good stuff like rare Earths, platinum, gold, etc. The cheaper stuff like copper or iron or lithium is just a byproduct of getting the more expensive stuff.

 

[jtr1962]

You're a scientist or engineer, I forget which one. Much of the US population is challenged beyond the reading comprehension level, of third grade. Some people, many people, elected George Santos as their representative. Need I say more?

Electronics engineer. BSE, Princeton University. I also graduated Bronx Science.

And yeah, you're absolutely right about the US population in general. Just more proof the US education system is a failure. We really need more and better STEM education just for starters.

 

[Poppy]

Insofar as present lithium suppliers go, per Reuters the heavy hitters are:

• Australia
• Brazil
• Chile
• Argentina
• China

The aspect of Li production that China has the relative lock on is refining, with something like 60% of the world's capacity. They also control something like ~80% of the world's Li-* cell production, be it the Li-ion more familiar in the industrial world or lower-density (but cheaper and longer-lasting) LFP.

If covid has taught us anything, we need to bring manufacturing/refining back home.
At least for essentials. As far as I am concerned, Korea can continue to maintain the lock on embroidered goods.

 

[jtr1962]

See, that is the kind of statement that tells everyone that you and people who think like you, are dangerous. You utopians always think you are so smart, and have the answers to how things should be run. It ends up with a war, and a lot of people dying.

That's actually what politicians do. If we ever got an actual engineer or scientist in charge, which has a snowball's chance in hell of happening, it would be quite the opposite.

But in any case, you don't have to worry. None of us would want the job, me included.

 

[bykfixer]

You're a scientist or engineer, I forget which one. Much of the US population is challenged beyond the reading comprehension level, of third grade. Some people, many people, elected George Santos as their representative. Need I say more?

wow Wow WOW, the smell of h8raid is strong.

 

[jtr1962]

Off-topic but I was reminded of this thread while reading this article:

Americans have forgotten how to behave. And it's time to stop blaming the pandemic.

 

[Poppy]

wow Wow WOW, the smell of h8raid is strong.

Hey bro, I suspect that you don't know the story behind George Santos' election lies. He'd be ousted by the Republicans in Congress except that they need his vote to maintain their majority without the far righters.

I'm making the point that the electors can be swayed by the finesse of the candidates. Not necessarily by the intelligence of the argument.

 

[IMA SOL MAN]

That's actually what politicians do. If we ever got an actual engineer or scientist in charge, which has a snowball's chance in hell of happening, it would be quite the opposite.

But in any case, you don't have to worry. None of us would want the job, me included.

This scientist was in charge.

* Self-edited for language. My apology to the forum.

 

[Galane]

That is insane. They crafted an energy efficiency rule that actively discourages energy efficiency.