v5 Triple BOSS Flashlight (Bright Output Small Size)

[Justintoxicated]

overready is going to send me a battery to help me diagnose an issue I am having. I'm running Keepower black high drain 18350's they are rated 8A continious 15amp pulse.
http://www.illumn.com/batteries-cha...-imr18350-750mah-high-discharge-flat-top.html

I have found that once my cell reached 3.6v with battery protection on, and Battery Stretch off (my ideal config) that instead of dropping out of 74% high mode, the light will instead shut off and not turn back on until some time has passed, which is really frustrating! ('m also running the hybrid memory so that might make a difference). If I turn battery protection off and battery stretch off the light steps down when it falls out of regulation which is what I would expect. If I turn Battery protection on and battery stretch on the light operates as expected as well.

Since most of us are using non protected cells, it seems these options are may not be fully configurable if you don't want issues. Seems that we should leave battery stretch on and battery protection on, or risk damaging your batteries or having the light turn off on you and not turn back on. For now I think I will deal with not having battery under-voltage protection and just be careful. That's just a little disappointing for such an expensive light. But who knows, maybe the AW cells will fix the problem, but then that means the light is probably more cell sensitive than it should be. Or I can give in and turn both features on i guess.

 

[the0dore3524]

overready is going to send me a battery to help me diagnose an issue I am having. I'm running Keepower black high drain 18350's they are rated 8A continious 15amp pulse.
http://www.illumn.com/batteries-cha...-imr18350-750mah-high-discharge-flat-top.html

I have found that once my cell reached 3.6v with battery protection on, and Battery Stretch off (my ideal config) that instead of dropping out of 74% high mode, the light will instead shut off and not turn back on until some time has passed, which is really frustrating! ('m also running the hybrid memory so that might make a difference). If I turn battery protection off and battery stretch off the light steps down when it falls out of regulation which is what I would expect. If I turn Battery protection on and battery stretch on the light operates as expected as well.

Since most of us are using non protected cells, it seems these options are may not be fully configurable if you don't want issues. Seems that we should leave battery stretch on and battery protection on, or risk damaging your batteries or having the light turn off on you and not turn back on. For now I think I will deal with not having battery under-voltage protection and just be careful. That's just a little disappointing for such an expensive light. But who knows, maybe the AW cells will fix the problem, but then that means the light is probably more cell sensitive than it should be. Or I can give in and turn both features on i guess.

I'm using the same batteries and have not had any issues. Granted, I don't run it on high 28 continuously, but I also noticed whilst doing the runtime test above that the light shut off and would not turn on for some time. Then, after a minute or so, it turned on again. By this time, the battery was at about 2.9 volts (empty). I used an AW 700 mAh for the test.

 

[Justintoxicated]

I'm using the same batteries and have not had any issues. Granted, I don't run it on high 28 continuously, but I also noticed whilst doing the runtime test above that the light shut off and would not turn on for some time. Then, after a minute or so, it turned on again. By this time, the battery was at about 2.9 volts (empty). I used an AW 700 mAh for the test.

3.6v is getting down in voltage for sure, but shutting off is a bummer. Might just be that I need to leave this one on battery stretch (probably not a bad idea with this light anyways).

Not as great of photos as many of you (just took them with my phone in not the best light). Boss is much lighter than my other triples!

Specs (R -> L) (all have pocket clips):
Boss 35 - all stock but with frosted narrow lens.
Rey Ti - Mtn Bistro Fet + 7135 Driver, Copper Noctigon 219c 4000k 9050 triple, 20mm UCL lens Frosted Narrow Optic + 10 trits. (both springs bypassed)
Convory S2+ - Gray Convoy Baked in Oven. Mtn Bistro Fet + 7135 Driver, KD 219c 4000k triple on copper KD board (lighter than noctigon), KD Optic, stock lens + Magnet added to Tailcap, and clear rubber switchcap. (Both Springs Bypassed)

triple light weights by glamisduner, on Flickr

triple lights by glamisduner, on Flickr
In this picture you can see the boss exposes the proper amount of the optic, convoy is in the middle and they rey ti covers up a bit too much of it.

Boss has the least thermal mass, but it does not drive the LED's quite as hard as the others in this configuration either. Convoy S2+ with Mtn spacer wins here for thermal mass in the head, the S2 Mtn heatsink is even larger!

Rey Ti has Trits and is titanium so not sure what that wins it but it's cool lookin!

Boss beats the convoy and rey ti in host quality and design hands down. Fit and finish are very good, and the pocket clip is by far the best of the 3 (this is important to me) It is easier to customize if using a computer too. It also has the cool bounceback safety (which im still working on getting adjusted right) and the red LED for diagnostics an night vision. I really like the way it displays the battery voltage using both white and red LEDs!

* Bistro drivers can beat the boss in customization since the firmware is open source but that requires coding and flashing the atiny driver which i plan to do). You can program pretty well without a computer, which is nice, and adjust the temperature shut off too. You get allot more brightness modes with bistro (if you want them) plus a couple hidden modes and medium press to go backwards which I have learned to love! In non memory mode you have a click on then medium press reverse to turbo shortcut, vs the boss where I can do a light press then turn on for moonlight mode. I prefer the 2 presses for turbo over moonlight, but either is workable The Boss does not have medium press to reverse, but it does have a forward clicky, so on the hybrid memory mode, you get that nice momentary on which is great. I'm really happy they included the hybrid memory mode!

I might have to try to get my hands on a 219c version of this light if it comes out. I really do prefer the 4000k temp and 92+ CRI of the 219c lights. Also I prefer the KD optic (not carclo). Unfortunately I think the post holes are a tad larger on the KD optic, so I can't put one in the boss very easily, but the KD 219c triple board plus optic combo for $7 is a REAL bargain! It has a narrower spot than the Carlco 10507 narrow, but more spill light too (10507 throws a bit farther, but the KD is more usable for EDC to me). Frosted Narrow optics tend to hide beam and tint artifacts better than the 10507, but not really more than the KD, so they are my second favorite.

 

[Moddoo]

3.6V resting is near 25% charge.

This is too low to run a light at high power.

The battery's voltage will sag significantly under a heavy load.
This is causing the light to hit the battery protection.
This battery Protection is saving your cell from damage.

If a cell is drained too low, it's performance will be reduced. This will cause the cell to have more trouble performing in the future.
If a cell ever hits the Battery Protection (low voltage) shut-off, we recommend recharging it immediately.
If IMR cells are drained too far, even once, they can be ruined.

We do not recommend using unprotected IMR cells without battery protection turned on.

 

[Justintoxicated]

3.6V resting is near 25% charge.

This is too low to run a light at high power.

The battery's voltage will sag significantly under a heavy load.
This is causing the light to hit the battery protection.
This battery Protection is saving your cell from damage.

If a cell is drained too low, it's performance will be reduced. This will cause the cell to have more trouble performing in the future.
If a cell ever hits the Battery Protection (low voltage) shut-off, we recommend recharging it immediately.
If IMR cells are drained too far, even once, they can be ruined.

We do not recommend using unprotected IMR cells without battery protection turned on.

I get what your saying but then why does it work fine with battery stretch enabled? I ran it for like another 10 mins on high by simply changing the programming. The difference was that with stretch enabled it ramps down instead of shutting off.

i even put the battery into my rey ti to see what the driver did do. It simply stepped down but didn't shut off. Then back into the boss with stretch enabled to see when it would shut down. It shut off at 2.8v according to the battery check, so then back to the charger it went.

seems the only problem comes from having battery stretch disabled and low voltage protection on. the problem being that my light will simply shut off with about 25 percent life left. Without battery stretch, turning off the low voltage protection allowed the light to step down as as expected. This is what happens in my other lights with different drivers, which also have low voltage protection. They step down when they fall out of regulation but do not shut the light off until it is time for LVP to kick in. The boss just seems to get confused and shut the light off instead of stepping down in this case.

 

[ElectronGuru]

battery protection on, and Battery Stretch off (my ideal config)

PM Sent

I had also asked about continual running of the secondary led-did I miss the answer?

Power draw and theoretical limits are about so:

level 1: 2.6ma = 300 or 1100 hours
red/amber: 6.3ma = 125 or 450 hours

BTW, secondary are good for 100,000 hours, so double the life on secondary but half the max runtime

 

[the0dore3524]

Is it possible to put a McGizmo clip on the BOSS? If so, how would we remove the screws?

 

[ElectronGuru]

Is it possible to put a McGizmo clip on the BOSS? If so, how would we remove the screws?

BOSS is designed to work with clips from standard 1 inch diameter lights

BOSS screws are installed with basic hand tools
You'll need a T10 wrench, inserted slowly and centered
Use hand force in standard counter clockwise direction
They should come right out after a bit of force

Note: screws are a special length and need to be reinstalled with new clips

 

[recDNA]

none available now right?

 

[ElectronGuru]

none available now right?

Correct. Next black BOSS availability is batch 6

None will be posted without our 2 day heads up!

See here for full schedule and instructions: http://www.oveready.com

 

[Jonas]

overready is going to send me a battery to help me diagnose an issue I am having. I'm running Keepower black high drain 18350's they are rated 8A continious 15amp pulse.

http://www.illumn.com/batteries-cha...-imr18350-750mah-high-discharge-flat-top.html

I have found that once my cell reached 3.6v with battery protection on, and Battery Stretch off (my ideal config) that instead of dropping out of 74% high mode, the light will instead shut off and not turn back on until some time has passed, which is really frustrating! ('m also running the hybrid memory so that might make a difference). If I turn battery protection off and battery stretch off the light steps down when it falls out of regulation which is what I would expect. If I turn Battery protection on and battery stretch on the light operates as expected as well.

Since most of us are using non protected cells, it seems these options are may not be fully configurable if you don't want issues. Seems that we should leave battery stretch on and battery protection on, or risk damaging your batteries or having the light turn off on you and not turn back on. For now I think I will deal with not having battery under-voltage protection and just be careful. That's just a little disappointing for such an expensive light. But who knows, maybe the AW cells will fix the problem, but then that means the light is probably more cell sensitive than it should be. Or I can give in and turn both features on i guess.

3.6v is getting down in voltage for sure, but shutting off is a bummer. Might just be that I need to leave this one on battery stretch (probably not a bad idea with this light anyways).

Your Keeppower cell should work absoultely fine, as long as the cell is not faulty.
The voltage of an 18350 cell drops fast when the cell is close to the end of its charge.
(The higher the load = the heavier/faster the voltage drop)
At 3.6V resting/floating voltage without any load (that is what the v5 battery meter shows)
the cell is already close to the end of its charge.
For reference please have a look at post #1935
showing the discharge behaviour of an 18350 cell.


Let me try to explain what is happening here.

First we need to know some specs for this:

Limits for a Li-Ion cell:
Maximum voltage: 4.2V (charging voltage)
Fully charged: ~4,15V (floating voltage)
Nominal voltage: 3,7V (voltage unter higher load)
Minimum voltage: 2.5V (voltage floor)

Limits for the v5 board/driver:
Minimum operating voltage (undervoltage protection/full shut off): 2.5V
Limit for "battery protection" (output shut off): 2,8V (5,6V for two cells in series)


Behaviour of different drivers:

FET/direct drive
The higher the cell voltage the higher the amps drawn from the cell(s).
No constant brightness; brightness declines continuously over the entire discharge of the cell(s).

linear (7135 based)
Constant brightness until cell voltage is lower than LED (Vf) voltage.
Declining amps after falling out of regulation.

boost
Constant brightness over the entire charge of the cell(s).
The v5 is a boost driver and provides constant output for all 33 brightness levels.
(perfect regulation!)

How does a boost driver (step-up converter) work?
A boost driver boosts a lower voltage to a higher level.
For LED drivers this means the voltage the cell(s) provide is lower than the voltage
the LED(s) need to operate (Vf).
A boost driver is able to provide perfect regulation over the entire charge of a cell.
As long as no limit is hit, the LED brightness is the same (constant),
meaning the LED(s) run at a constant wattage.
The limits are:
- max amp the driver is able to handle or the cell can provide
- lowest input voltage the boost driver can work with or a discharged cell
A boost driver works different from other drivers such as linear or FET/direct drive.
With a boost driver the behaviour is like so:
The higher the driver input voltage = the lower the amps drawn from the cell(s).
The lower the driver input voltage = the higher the amps drawn from the cell(s).
This is because of the constant power provided to the LED(s) by the driver.
Conclusion: To maintain watts, amps increase during discharge.

This graph represents boost driver behaviour with a constant output at 3W:
This is comparable to the behaviour of the v5 driver running at 3W (level 21)

v5 Operation

Two different behaviours can be programmed:
Stretch on:
v5 provides constant output until cell voltage hits 3.2V and then reduces output by single level increments.
This happens down to 0.5W which is the lowest level stretch operates.
Stretch runs at 0.5W until cell voltage hits 2.8V (protection on) or 2.5V (protection off) and then
shuts off output.

Stretch off:
v5 provides constant output until cell voltage hits 2.8V (protection on) or 2.5V (protection off)
and then shuts off output.

You can program two different limits:
Battery protection on:
Output will be shut off at 2.8V per cell, regardless if stretch is off or on!

Battery protection off:
Output will be shut off at 2.5V (undervoltage) regardless if stretch is off or on!
This is true for single cell and double cell configuration!
Only use protected cells with this configuration!


battery protection on, and Battery Stretch off
The output is a constant until cell hits 2.8V and v5 shuts off output.
- No warning at the end of runtime
- Cell(s) will not overdischarge

As voltage drops, v5 increases amperage draw to maintain your set watt level. So with smaller cells (including 18350),
pulling high loads at low voltage creates higher sag than when the cell was full.
This sag can be over half a volt, such that a resting voltage as high as 3.5V can sag down to the 2.8V cutoff,
turning the light off sooner than might be expected. This results in an exhausted cell.
Because of the exhausted cell v5 will not turn back on until cell has recovered above 2.8V (this can take a while!).

This can be avoided by leaving stretch on (recommended).

battery protection off and battery stretch off
Output is constant until cell hits 2.5V and v5 shuts off.
- Advanced uses only
- No warning at the end of runtime!
- Cells should not be discharged this low, protection of some kind is always recommended

Battery protection on and battery stretch on
Output is a constant until cell reaches 3.2V and v5 reduces brightness by 1/33 levels as needed, down to 0.5W (simulating a long taper).
- Warning near end of runtime with declining output, avoiding sudden darkness
- Swap cells as soon as practical
- Cell will not be overly discharged, but recharge soon to maintain cell health
- Recommended for all cells but particularly small or unprotected cells


v5 Discharge Graphs

All 33 white levels run at a constant brightness and never drop out of regulation.
v5 adjusts output levels according to capacity of the cell when stretch is actively running.
With stretch turned on, v5 "simulates" a taper by reducing output level by level when cell is nearly discharged.
This is comparable to the behaviour of a linear driver (but at a much better regulation and efficiency)!

Here's how v5 operates with stretch turned on:
(For example) Starting with 8.8W at level 25 and "simulated" taper (stretch) down to 0.5W until shut off at 2.8V.

Here's how v5 operates with stretch turned off:
(For example) Starting with 8.8W level 25 until shut off at 2.8V.

Comparing both:
Stretch turned on = shorter constant brightness at operated level but long taper at the end for warning (longer overall runtime)
Stretch turned off = longer constant brightness at operated level but no warning at the end (shorter overall runtime)

Edits: Typos and small corrections.

 

[barry]

Wow Jonas. Super nice explanation. Have you ever thought about teaching?

 

[the badger]

Wow Jonas. Super nice explanation. Have you ever thought about teaching?

He Is a teacher

 

[Jonas]

Wow Jonas. Super nice explanation. Have you ever thought about teaching?

He Is a teacher

Thanks!
I am not a teacher but I like good descriptions/explanations.
A simple rule to develop a good description/explanation:
Think with two brains.

 

[easilyled]

Thanks!
I am not a teacher but I like good descriptions/explanations.
A simple rule to develop a good description/explanation:
Think with two brains.

Please could you explain "Dark matter" and "Dark Energy"?

 

[Jonas]

Please could you explain "Dark matter" and "Dark Energy"?

This would be the wrong forum, sorry.

 

[quazzle]

Jonas, this is true awesome work! You're a man!
This is what I always wanted to explain but had no proper words to express

 

[barry]

Jonas, this is true awesome work! You're a man!
This is what I always wanted to explain but had no proper words to express

Coming from "quazzle" this is high praise indeed.

 

[Jonas]

Jonas, this is true awesome work! You're a man!
This is what I always wanted to explain but had no proper words to express

Thank you!

 

[Justintoxicated]

battery protection off and battery stretch off
Output is constant until cell hits 2.5V and v5 shuts off.
- Advanced uses only
- No warning at the end of runtime!
- Cells should not be discharged this low, protection of some kind is always recommended

I get expected step down behavior when running both settings as off. As it falls out of regulation the power level shifts to a lower output.

With battery stretch off, and protection on, the light will just shut off (I feel it should still step down the first time the voltage drops, rather than shut off and not come back on). But putting that same battery into another light it will still show about 25% charge. And the Boss will do a voltage reading showing 3.5-3.6v.

The Battery is still usable in my other lights at this level. Heck, if you pop another battery into the boss, program the boss to re-enable battery stretch and and protection on. Insert the battery that the boss would not function with just a moment ago, the light will starts working again...

I had memory on for these tests, so that might be part of the issue. I dunno I have opted to leave battery stretch on as it is the only option that will not leave me in the dark, and should still be safe for the batteries. The other two modes are pointless for 18350 version, I doubt I would reprogram it just to run CR123's on occasion.

I Still enjoy carrying this guy! it's right in front of me as I write this