What's better to glue wood? Elmer's or Super Glue?

[FlashKat]

I guess I am not using it correctly, since everytime I tried Gorilla glue compared to DAP Weldwood glue. The DAP always held together everytime I tried to break it apart. Do you always break the item you just glued for testing? What brand of white glue do you use that is just as strong a wood glue? I could say the same for bubble gum would work just as well if clamped together properly and dried in the sun.

Gorilla Glue is actually fantastic glue, especially for outdoor use. It is waterproof and performs well at all different temperatures and through wild extremes of temperature and humidity. (Boat builders glue (resourcinol ?sp?) is also a good choice in these conditions.) Also, Gorilla Glue (which is polyurethane glue, and can be bought cheaper in "generic" form) is superior for gluing end grain against regular grain. That is if you butt up the end of a board against the flat of another board, Gorilla Glue is better than Titebond or Aliaphatic Resin, etc.

And white glue is nearly as strong as wood glue, IF you clamp the joint properly.

As I said before, most of these glues are way strong enough. The whole "this glue is stronger than that" thing is more of a marketing gimmick than anything else. A lot of other considerations are more important than ultimate glue joint strength. Heck, as long as it's stronger than the wood itself, it really doesn't matter all that much.

Considerations like clamp time, water-resistance, whether or not you'll ever need to take the joint apart, the materials to be glued, whether or not you'll be able to clamp the joint, toxicity, fumes, ease of use, color, what contaminants are already in the joint, and so on, are probably all at least as important as glue strength.

For example, I found Gorilla Glue worked nearly as well as epoxy for joints on piano benches (they always take a beating!) that were hopelessly mucked up with white glue. Also Gorilla Glue works great on stone or ceramic or clay (providing the surfaces aren't painted or glazed), plus it foams up to fill gaps and spaces--not as well as expoxy, but still, to a degree. And it's nicer to deal with than epoxy. If some excess spills out of the joint, you just wait for 10 minutes or so until it is sort of dry, but still somewhat soft, and you can trim it right off with a chisel. Epoxy on the other hand--ESPECIALLY epoxy that hasn't been mixed right, is a royal, royal pain in the rear end when it gets on surfaces or on your hands. I HATE epoxy hardener or resin all by itself. Nasty. Yuck! But Gorilla Glue, while it does stain your hands, isn't nearly so nasty to deal with.

There are pros and cons to the various glues; that's for sure.

And then, of course, a lot of times what you really want to fix a joint or connection is a SCREW!!! Or both. That's good, too.

 

[will]

JS has it right - wood glues work best on clean, raw wood. Putting wood glue on something that has already been glued is not the best. Wood glue will not adhere to the glue that is already there.

Gorilla Glue will work better in this case. Get the smallest bottle, the stuff will dry out in a few months after the bottle has been opened.

Gorilla Glue also works better bonding porous and non-porous together. Make sure the work has been misted with water.

Any wood project should be clamped, screwed, tied together until the glue has set.

super glue works best on your fingers -

 

[FlashKat]

Trashman does not make any statements that it has been glued before.

JS has it right - wood glues work best on clean, raw wood. Putting wood glue on something that has already been glued is not the best. Wood glue will not adhere to the glue that is already there.

Gorilla Glue will work better in this case. Get the smallest bottle, the stuff will dry out in a few months after the bottle has been opened.

Gorilla Glue also works better bonding porous and non-porous together. Make sure the work has been misted with water.

Any wood project should be clamped, screwed, tied together until the glue has set.

super glue works best on your fingers -

 

[will]

Trashman does not make any statements that it has been glued before.

A lot of items like this are made up of laminations ( like plywood ) This blade has carbon fiber in part of the handle. There will be glue used in the original manufacturing process. Laminations will make the object stronger and less likely to warp.

Which Weldwood glue do you use? I have used the contact glue a lot of times for formica tops. As to the white glue - that was probably one of the first generations. I have been using titebond II and titebond III for any new wood to wood projects ( long grain to long grain ). For end grain to long grain I use gorilla glue and some mechanical fastener.

I read an article some years back about the various wood glues. They actually bind the wood fibers together. Once the glue has dried, and if the item breaks, using wood glue will not bind the areas that have glue on the surface.

 

[OhMyGosh]

Is it just me? I have never had much luck with super glue (CA). I have tried it on plastic many times and it never holds. I guess I just never got good surface contact. I think epoxy is great because you can 'build up' the joint with it to make it stronger than the flawed original part. It is a pain to work with though

I think wood glue is amazing. I have made a simple butt joint and had the wood near the joint break, while the joint itself held.

 

[will]

Is it just me? I have never had much luck with super glue (CA). I have tried it on plastic many times and it never holds. I guess I just never got good surface contact. I think epoxy is great because you can 'build up' the joint with it to make it stronger than the flawed original part. It is a pain to work with though

.

There are lots of types of plastic. Plastic glues will disolve the surface of the plastic. when it dries - it bonds the two pieces together . Not all plastic glue will work with all types of plastic.

 

[Trashman]

Wow, lots of responses! I'm glad I didn't check back earlier, because then I really wouldn't have known which to use. I went to get some Titebond III, but the store only had Titebond II, so that's what I used. I figured that Elmer's white glue may have worked just fine, but I liked that the Titebond II is waterproof, which will may help retain strength while being gripped with my hot sweaty hand. Plus, it mentioned (on the back of the tube) that it held up well in heat. It was clean and free from dust and matched up perfectly. I "clamped" it using a bunch of rubber bands which I put around it as tightly as I could get them. I'm pretty sure it'll hold just fine.

BTW, the carbon tube is actually in the center of the handle (runs the length), and doesn't doesn't touch the wood- it's got a couple of dampeners (rubber or plastic?) - one at each end - that joins it with the hand at the end and near the top of the handle. I wasn't able to see any type of glue in there, but there must be something, judging by the way it split. It'd didn't split like solid wood splits, it had a very evenly spaced jagged pattern that matched on the top and bottom.

Thanks for all the responses guys. If I have any problems, maybe I'll post back, but most likely, it'll be just fine, unless I drop it again. (It was actually knocked out of my hand, this last time)

 

[FlashKat]

Dap Weldwood carpenters glue is my preference, but as you stated Titebond is also a good product. I also like the DAP Weldwood contact cement.

A lot of items like this are made up of laminations ( like plywood ) This blade has carbon fiber in part of the handle. There will be glue used in the original manufacturing process. Laminations will make the object stronger and less likely to warp.

Which Weldwood glue do you use? I have used the contact glue a lot of times for formica tops. As to the white glue - that was probably one of the first generations. I have been using titebond II and titebond III for any new wood to wood projects ( long grain to long grain ). For end grain to long grain I use gorilla glue and some mechanical fastener.

I read an article some years back about the various wood glues. They actually bind the wood fibers together. Once the glue has dried, and if the item breaks, using wood glue will not bind the areas that have glue on the surface.

 

[Trashman]

So far, so good. I played with it today and it's as good as new. The guy who sold me the blade saw it when it was broken and then took a look at it today and was impressed. He said, "pretty good job, I can't even see the glue." Actually, you can't even tell it was repaired.

 

[FlashKat]

I am glad to hear you used the Titebond and it's working for you :twothumbs.

So far, so good. I played with it today and it's as good as new. The guy who sold me the blade saw it when it was broken and then took a look at it today and was impressed. He said, "pretty good job, I can even see the glue." Actually, you can't even tell it was repaired.

 

[Trashman]

Thanks. BTW, I made a slight boo boo in quoting the guy who sold me the blade--he actually said, "pretty good job, I CAN'T even see the glue." I orignally typed "can." Whoops!

 

[TedTheLed]

just thought I'd mention that I use hot melt glue alot because it is almost 'instant' -- I use it as one would use a clamp when wood building; first glue in place, then drill and screw, the glue holds pieces in exactly the right position.
I also use it to cast small 'plastic' parts too, any mold material that will hold for 20 seconds can be used till the glue cools and solidifies. I use a hotmelt called "ultra-bond" it's known as the 'epoxy' of hot melt, but is hard to get in small amounts..also if it absorbs moisture from the air it tends to foam when it's dispensed (foaming doesn't affect the performance though) so I store mine with a box of dessicant. Once it's applied it's more moisture resistant than other hot melts, I'm told. I got 8 pounds for $76.00 + shp. from hotstik.com and use a 3M hand dispenser..

 

[chesterqw]

i guess welding works better...




but not for wood

i think some kind of silicon glue/epoxy should work.

 

[Pellidon]

When I make pens I always use Gorilla Glue to glue the wood tube to the brass liner. The expansion of GG is a plus there. I did just attach a cheap acoustic guitar neck back on a body with GG and it has held just fine. bad flat joint with no dovetail or mortise/tennon fixture.

My problem with GG is it goes bad in the bottle after opening and I don't use it enough to justify the cost. So I just use carpenters glue most of the time.

 

[js]

I guess I am not using it correctly, since everytime I tried Gorilla glue compared to DAP Weldwood glue. The DAP always held together everytime I tried to break it apart. Do you always break the item you just glued for testing? What brand of white glue do you use that is just as strong a wood glue? I could say the same for bubble gum would work just as well if clamped together properly and dried in the sun.

FlashKat,

You're almost certainly not using it correctly if you were able to break a GG joint apart.

I am a professional piano tuner-technician. I used to make my living at it, and before that I apprenticed to learn the trade. I am also an amateur wood-worker, and, like many people, general handyman around the house. I have used almost every commercially available type of glue intended for wood and other organics. And in point of fact, there is a bottle of DAP Weldwood contact cement in my piano tuning toolcase. I use it to glue plastic key-covers back on the wood keys. It's definitely a very good glue, and is the only type of glue to use where you will be unable to clamp the joint. All you need to do is coat both surfaces, let them dry until shiny, then press them together with decent pressure for a few seconds, and !VOILA! you have an excellent glue joint.

I know all about DAP, FlashKat. I also know that if you screw up the alignment, you're, well . . . , screwed, as it were. So, it's not the right glue for use in this situation.

The white glue in my piano kit is Elmers white glue. And every single piano action part I have ever glued with it out in the field, has held up just fine. You question my experience and integrity? You think I just glue something, then set it aside on a shelf and never "test" it? You think I am an armchair "glue expert".

No. Not so. I speak from long, hard-won experience.

As for white glue being "just as strong" as wood-glue, I never said that. I simply said it was way strong enough. White glue is, in point of fact, not as strong as wood glue for gluing wood, but it's still very very strong. If you can break a white glue joint after gluing and clamping and letting dry, you don't know what you're doing--you did something wrong, or the joint was contaminated. Period.

And in point of fact, bubble gum will not work at all well as a glue joint, even if clamped and dried in the sun. If this was said in sarcasm, I don't appreciate it.

Actually, I've read that blood or milk can be used as glue in a pinch, but I've never tried. Casin glue is made from milk, and violin makers use it to join the back of the violin to the sides, and according to the violin maker I used to eat lunch with, once you glue it, it will never come off. Mostly violin makers use hide glue.

As for hot glue, the plastic sticks that melt in a hot "gun", it is definitely NOT in the same strength category as the wood glues we've been talking about here. But it's a pretty useful glue for certain things, especially for gluing fabric trim to upholstery, and for certain crafting projects where speed is of the essence.

 

[js]

Thought this link was worth posting:

Best glue?

Notice the mention of white glue for its longer setup time. I like it in certain situations because it dries clear, lasts a long time in my kit (good shelf life), is non-toxic, cleans up with water, tacks well, and is plenty strong. I only ever use it to glue joints like a hammer shank joint, which if it ever breaks again, will need to have the whole shank repalced anyway. For any joint that needs to be taken apart, or which is felt or leather to wood, I would NOT use white glue. It is a PITA to sand off and is too hard to chisel off with any sort of ease. It's a nasty thing to have to clean out of a joint once it dries there.

 

[TedTheLed]

..js I see you realized piano keys aren't made of ivory any more, but plastic instead..using ivory is illegal, except for certain old pieces, piano makers no longer use ivory ...
have you ever tried ultrabond hotmelt? I'd like to see you pull a joint made from IT apart.. also hotmelt is good for some otherwise impossible to join plastics, like polypropylene. It is also useful for bonding magnets to various surfaces. (btw If you move a hotmelt joint while it's cooling it will be much weaker.)

"..Ultra*high performance, polyamide based hot melt adhesive for demanding applications requiring both high & low temperature resistance. This adhesive will allow high strength bonds to woods, metals*, and various plastics including ABS, Nylon, & PVC*and offers very good resistance to plasticizers. HS-376 meets UL 94 V-O Flammability Requirements.
*
* Metals should typically be pre-heated to obtain*optimum*results.*
** Note: Also available in bulk pellet form,*see product # HM-376P
*
TECHNICAL DATA:
Color = Translucent Amber
Approx. Working Time = 30 seconds
Viscosity:
4,700 cps @ 380 F.
3,200 cps @ 400 F.
2,185 cps @ 425 F.
Heat Resistance = 255 F.
Low Temp Resistance = -20 F.
Hardness = 80 A
Shear Strength = 540 psi
Tensile Strength = 720 psi
Non-Toxic per ASTM D-4236

here's a cool gluing advice engine; (they recommend 'household GOOP' alot, I have a tube in the house and it is very handy for difficult glue jobs)

http://www.thistothat.com

 

[MarNav1]

For wood to wood, Gorilla glue is the best. I couldn't break the seam that I tested.

+1 on that!

 

[js]

TedTheLED,

Interesting on the high performance hotmelt! I didn't know about that. Thanks! But, the test of a joint really isn't whether or not *you* or *I* can pull it apart. We're all pretty weak as far as these things go. Something like a hydraluic apparatus is usually what is used to test ultimate yield strength of glue joints.

As for piano keys, you say that you see that I

realized piano keys aren't made of ivory any more, but plastic instead..using ivory is illegal, except for certain old pieces, piano makers no longer use ivory ...

Well, first off, I know far more about pianos and piano key coverings than almost anyone who isn't a piano technician or historian. So, yes, I know that new pianos can't be made with ivory keys anymore.

However, that does not affect any piano that already has ivory keys. There is no law saying that the owners must strip the key board of ivory and replace it with plastic. Not at all.

And, in fact, myself, and all piano technicians whom I know (and piano shops) keep a supply of old ivories on hand. You see, every time an old ivory keyboard is so wrecked that it needs to be recovered (with plastic) the good ivories are carefully removed before the keys are sent out to be recovered. Since about a third to half of the old uprights that are rebuilt need to be recovered, it isn't long before you have a a whole lot of old ivory keys on hand. So that a keyboard that only needs a dozen or less keys repaired, will be repaired from the old stash of ivory key covers. It's completely legal and above board. They aren't *new* ivory keys, so there's no problem. You could have a problem if you tried to SHIP a piano with an ivory keyboard overseas, but other than that, it's par for the course. There are a great many pianos that still have ivory keyboards. And in fact, it wasn't more than two or three decades ago that a company in Germany would recover a set of keys with real, legal, NEW ivory, for about $2,500 or so. But that stopped before I even apprenticed to learn the trade.

Anyway, the point is that I do far more regluing and repairing of ivory keys than plastic ones, and this has nothing to do with the fact that I've "realized" that new pianos come with plastic keys. LOL! Most of the lower cost uprights are rebuilt or reconditioned uprights from about 100 years ago, and about half still have an ivory keyboard when sold after being reconditioned. My piano, an Ivers and Pond upright, has, in point of fact . . . wait for it . . . an ivory keyboard.

And for gluing ivories in the field I use CA Glue (Krazy glue to be exact) and in the shop or at home, I use hot hide glue and clamp it overnight.

On another note, there is one more glue worth mentioning, and that is cold hide glue. Franklin is the company which sells it, and it's also called "liquid hide glue". It is hide glue with a chemical additive that keeps it liquid but which evaporates in air to leave hide glue. It has a very long set-up time (like 12 hours) and so is ideal for projects that will take a long time to assemble (like a chair) but whose joints can't be done one at a time. It is also ideal for people who want to use a old-fashioned historical glue on an antique, but who don't want to invest in a glue pot. It's usually OK at re-activating the old hide glue in a joint, too, and on top of that, won't muck up the joint like white glue will. When clamped, with uncontaminated, well mating joints, it's also pretty strong. The shop I apprenticed in, and I myself, use liquid hide glue to re-glue the ribs of a piano sound-board back to the sound board, along with screws to hold the ribs while they dry. This is because it takes a while to use a glue knife to get the glue between the ribs and the soundboard, then screw everything up tight, and also because the rib was initially glued in place with hide glue, and it would be a real pain to clean in between the loose rib sections and sound board. Hence the use of cold hide glue. It's the only glue that you could safely seringe into a joint of an old antique chair, and not have some antiques road show guy yelling at you for using it.

 

[TedTheLed]

js thanks for the information, that is very interesting stuff about the ivory stash and key repair. I have alot of respect for you musical instrument repair guys :thumbsup: I guess those piano tuning skills and hide glue can come in handy when tuning up the ol' super-collider ?

interesting fact; the booster rockets for the space shuttles are covered with a final coat of SHELLAC. Isn't that cool? We can launch rockets into space but we can't manufacture anything better than the resin we collect from the back of a BUG to do it!