why so much hate towards electric cars?

[chillinn]

Yet you think big pharma, along with the government who is giving you those numbers, which includes a President who can't remember who he is singing Happy Birthday to, are. If you say so.

Just out of curiosity, do you know who shot President Kennedy?

 

[billt460]

Just out of curiosity, do you know who shot President Kennedy?

Don't attempt to deflect answering a question by asking another. Just answer. The question is a fair one.

Do you trust big pharma and the government more than physicians and phd's who have nothing to gain by lying?

 

[PhotonMaster3]

I test drove a Tesla Model Y a few months ago. The acceleration was astonishing (and I've had some fast cars) but it was pretty sparse inside for the price. The range is decent but on long trips I'd worry about finding charging stations. I may consider an electric if/when they have a 1,000 mile range and can charge at any gas station in 3 minutes or less. Until then I'll stick with my gas burners

 

[chillinn]

Do you trust big pharma and the government more than physicians and phd's who have nothing to gain by lying?

Your question is malformed, overly simplistic, creates a false equivalence, and indulges in the fallacies of both hasty and sweeping generalizations. Big Pharma is shorthand for the pharmaceutical industry. The entire industry, a global market estimated at close to $1.5T dollars and employing well over 5 million people. The US government is also people, nearly 2 million of them. The physicians and Ph.D.'s you're referring to represent outliers and a tiny and insignificant minority of all doctors and researchers. And you are obviously baiting me to make some absurd and unsupportable conclusion. Go on and believe everyone is out to get you, but the truth is you will stubbornly believe what you want whether it is true or not, even in spite of something being proven false beyond all doubt, you'll never fall for that. While there is such a thing as compassion and a desire to help, not everyone can help you. That would require a psychology degree, clinical experience and your earnest desire to become well.

 

[kj2]

I test drove a Tesla Model Y a few months ago. The acceleration was astonishing (and I've had some fast cars) but it was pretty sparse inside for the price. The range is decent but on long trips I'd worry about finding charging stations. I may consider an electric if/when they have a 1,000 mile range and can charge at any gas station in 3 minutes or less. Until then I'll stick with my gas burners

But when do you need 1000 miles of range? When do you drive 1000 miles per day? Current 800V based cars have enough with a 10-20min charge at a fast charger (150+ kW). Many fast chargers in Europe already have a max of 350kW. 1000 miles is fun, but it's also extra weight you're carrying with you.

 

[billt460]

......And you are obviously baiting me to make some absurd and unsupportable conclusion.....

I'm not "baiting" you about anything. I asked you a simple question.... Several times. And you have done nothing but duck and dodge. Then come back with paragraphs of blather.

You stated that you think the people I gave credence to were not credible. You put forth a bunch of numbers and stats that you think are. All of those numbers came from either big pharma, the government, (read CDC), hospitals who have made a fortune off all of this, or else all of the above.

So the question remains that you continue to refuse to answer. Do you trust the government and big pharma, (who both have agendas, along with a tremendous vested interest in this), more than you trust highly educated PHD's, doctors, and nurses from around the globe, who have no vested interest?

And who are simply calling it as their trained eyes see it with zero bias. And who have met with great resistance, and in several cases outright threats in doing so.

This isn't a Moon shot to decipher. It's strictly a matter of choosing your sources of information. I'm simply asking who are yours? And once again you dance and put forth paragraphs of word salad and blather.

That tells me you're too embarrassed to admit the fact you trust the government and big pharma, who both have an agenda in this. More than you do independent, educated minds that have nothing to gain by lying.

 

[bykfixer]

Why is big pharma and covid even being talked about in the thread about the love or hate of electric cars?

Chillin, stop causing arguments everywhere you post here. Seriously bro, it's annoying. Make your point and shut up. Not everybody is going to agree with you no matter how many times you push your opinions on the matter.

It's gone from getting old to gotten old. Wanna quarrel? Go join facebook.

 

[chillinn]

I'm not "baiting" you about anything. I asked you a simple question.... Several times. And you have done nothing but duck and dodge. Then come back with paragraphs of blather.

It's exactly what you're doing, but the problem is that what I think is entirely irrelevant. When you focus on the person, your argument is already lost. Stick to what is said, attack that not me, and you can't go wrong

Chillin, stop causing arguments everywhere you post here. Seriously bro, it's annoying.

Hey bykfixer, I'm not responsible for anyone but myself, my own actions, as are you, as is everyone. If others can't control themselves, that isn't something I could cause them to do. And foremost, I am not responsible for your annoyance, that is entirely your choice. Don't seek blame, man, as it has a tendency to stick to you. I am vengeance. I am the night. I AM RUBBER, and you are glue, buddy,

 

[billt460]

Stick to what is said

I'd like to, but you haven't said anything.

 

[PhotonMaster3]

But when do you need 1000 miles of range? When do you drive 1000 miles per day? Current 800V based cars have enough with a 10-20min charge at a fast charger (150+ kW). Many fast chargers in Europe already have a max of 350kW. 1000 miles is fun, but it's also extra weight you're carrying with you.

Ya I hear u… I guess I just don't see any advantages of driving an electric car vs a gas powered one. We have a German made SUV that's quite a bit cheaper than the Model X and it's nearly as fast and much more luxurious. Certainly not a 1,000 mile range but I can fill it up in a few minutes anywhere in the country pretty much (US)

 

[jtr1962]

Here is a little bit more common sense information, that is somehow always avoided or lost when EV's are being discussed.... As of now a little over 1% of the vehicles used on the road today are electric. That means almost 99% of vehicle owners drive gasoline or Diesel fueled cars.

Look at electric car history….

1). In 1832 Robert Anderson develops the first crude electric vehicle.

2). It wasn't until 1890 that William Morrison came out with the first practical electric vehicle / wagon.

3). In 1901 Edison sets out to improve battery technology.

4). 1900 to 1912, A full one third of vehicles sold were electric.

Then.... By 1935 electric cars were dead, due to the availability of oil. By the late 60s to the early 70s, gas prices were somewhat higher, and it once again sparked some interest in electric vehicles. Then, once again when prices went down, so did that interest.

Then in 1997, (26 years ago), Toyota came out with the first Hybrid / Prius. Then in 2006, (17 years ago), Tesla starts with a 200 mile range car. Today, there are approximately 23 plug-in electric, and 36 hybrid gas/electric models available.

Throughout all of this gas prices have continued to climb. And yet, in spite of all of this renewed interest and improvement in electric vehicles, almost a full 99% of said vehicles on the road today are STILL gas-fueled cars.

Point being, if something was that wonderful, it wouldn't take 190 years to "capture" a whopping 1% of the market share over everything else that's being sold. In short, electric vehicles are nothing new.

And yet in that same time frame electric trains were wildly successful. They totally replaced steam trains, and in most places diesel trains. What's the difference here? Railways weren't obsessed with storing all the energy in a battery, instead opting to collect it as the train moves from grid-connected overhead wires or a third rail. Motor vehicles easily could have followed this same model. Indeed, some cities had (and still have) electric buses which get their power from a trolley wire. Roads could have had embedded conductors similar to slot cars. No range issues, you only need a small battery to get past dead spots, or streets where there isn't enough traffic to justify putting in conductors.

Why didn't this happen? As usual, greed. Corporations were able to extract a lot more money from the general public with gas cars than they even would have with the system I described. That's one of the major failings of capitalism. You don't end up with the best solutions. You end up with the solutions that generate the most profit for those providing them.

And now they are being totally overhyped by a bunch of "green" environmentalists. Who always manage to replace facts and common sense, with crazed ideology. Along with government mandates and regulations.

Mandates and regulations are a necessary evil to reign in corporate greed and human stupidity. It's simply a question of how much we need, not whether or not we need them. Too much, it interferes with innovation. Too little, you end with all sorts of negative effects, both economic and environmental, on the general population.

Instead of allowing capitalism, along with the free market to do its job. Government mandates work no better at promoting sales, than the electric vehicles they're trying so desperately to push on the American public.

Capitalism is a monumental failure. To be fair, so is pure socialism. We need to find a third way. Also, the problem here isn't just gas cars. You claim they're a solution to a non-existent problem. How about air which smells so awful, especially in hot weather, that you can't even leave the house? Big problem in places with large concentrations of vehicles. How about endless wars over finite oil supplies? How about out of control cancer rates? How about noise pollution, especially from heavy trucks and buses? That's not even getting into climate change, although frankly my list is already enough to dump oil yesterday.

No, EVs aren't a panacea because the problem isn't just gas cars. Rather, it's reliance on a transportation system where the default in most of the country is you need to own an expensive piece of machinery, and get an operator's license, just to participate economically. I could write a book on why a system based on private automobiles is hugely wasteful and resource intensive compared to the alternatives, why it disadvantages the poor, and also why the low density settlement patterns encouraged by this system are equally wasteful. That's the primary problem. Electrify automobiles and you only solve the pollution and noise problems. Every other problem related to auto dependency remains, including the 40,000 plus killed each year on the roads just in the US alone. While I want mandates to get the transition over with as rapidly as possible (including mandates allowing only zero emissions vehicles to operate in large cities by 2035 at the latest), I also want long term plans to reduce auto dependency. In fact, if we would have simply kept and improved the rail system which existed post WWII, it wouldn't matter much if we went to EVs or not because only a tiny fraction of the population would be driving.

 

[jtr1962]

But when do you need 1000 miles of range? When do you drive 1000 miles per day? Current 800V based cars have enough with a 10-20min charge at a fast charger (150+ kW). Many fast chargers in Europe already have a max of 350kW. 1000 miles is fun, but it's also extra weight you're carrying with you.

Yeah, exactly. That's over 14 hours of driving at an average speed of 70 mph, which is faster than you can go in most places. It's not really safe or sane to drive more than 6 to 8 hours at a time. After that, even passengers need to get out and rest overnight. So 500 miles should be plenty for 6 to 8 hours of driving. Then you stop and let it recharge overnight.

Besides that, what percentage of trips are 1000 miles? Very few:

95% Of All Trips Could Be Made In Electric Cars, Says Study

Here at GreenCarReports, we often hear excuses from people who say they want to buy an electric car but feel unable to. Aside from increased sticker price, one of the more common excuses given is the worry that an electric car won’t meet their mileage needs due to range limitations per charge --...

www.greencarreports.com

More astonishingly, around 98 percent of all single-trip journeys were under 50 miles in length, with trips over 70 miles in length accounting for just one percent of all single-trip journeys.

Even if you want to account for a round trip, a 140 mile range, which nearly every EV sold these days has, covers 99% of trips. 1,000 mile trips are an outlier of an outlier. Outside of long-distance truckers, almost nobody does trips that long with any regularity.

 

[bykfixer]

I work for a fairly large company that is all about some carbon credits, esg score and being green. We have lots of fleet vehicles. I'm talking thousands. Not one is electric. Reason being is dependable fuel replenish. Many are used in remote areas where even a gasoline station is dozens of miles away. Some are purely for commuting from point a to b, but because they are shared the concern is the last user "oops" forgot to charge it back up. That is assuming there's a charging facility near the office it's left at. Mine carries stuff and at times idles for hours at a time to power a laptop, a printer, overhead and other flashing lights next to the highway so there's no way any of the current crop of EV's could fulfill the duties.

At the rather large office building there is 4 floors of businesses to which a shopping mall size parking lot is needed. On any given day there might be a half dozen electric cars all told. The folks with loot all drive Maserati's, hot rod Lexus cars or big old Beamers. Even the folks who can afford an electric car don't choose them. I do see more and more Teslas on my daily routines but still out of some quarter million cars a day I see, perhaps a dozen are electric.

There's still 12 years before 2035 and a lot can change in 12 years. But I don't see a light at the end of the tunnel here in 2023 just yet. I hear a horn in the distance, but it's just some gubment moron with a bull horn shouting the "sky is falling" right before stepping onto a private jet to take them to their beach front mansion.

 

[jtr1962]

There's still 12 years before 2035 and a lot can change in 12 years. But I don't see a light at the end of the tunnel here in 2023 just yet. I hear a horn in the distance, but it's just some gubment moron with a bull horn shouting the "sky is falling" right before stepping onto a private jet to take them to their beach front mansion.

And look how fast everything else is changing. The big story with EVs is the industry moving towards LiFePO4 batteries. The range penalty is getting less and less because of the R&D poured into making this chemistry more energy dense. LiFePO4 doesn't suffer from the fire issues. It can also be recharged thousands of times, meaning the rest of the vehicle will wear out before the battery. And on top of that, the cost will be less than the present crop of regular li-ion. As with any fairly new product, you cater to the luxury market first, which is why there aren't any super low cost EVs. China will probably eventually sell us EVs for under $20K. When built in quantity, EVs are inherently less costly to build than gas cars. There's just a lot fewer complex parts.

The lack of charging station issue is gradually being solved. The "grid problems" frequently mentioned aren't as bad as they sound. The vast majority of EV charging will be done at home, overnight, when the grid has excess capacity. Long term, we're already adding to grid capacity with renewables. Most of the renewable deployment isn't replacing existing sources. Rather, it's adding to them.

Right now I see these 2035 mandates as nothing more than a drop-dead date set by government to ensure big oil doesn't try to kill EVs yet again. Fact is the free market will probably mean literally nobody will even want to build gas cars any more after a certain date because they'll have few or no buyers. That date will likely be quite a bit before 2035. Does anyone still make CRTs nowadays, even though there's no mandate prohibiting their manufacture? That's the situation as I see it with EVs. The mandates will be moot by the time they kick in.

Obviously rural areas will face the longest transition times but here's the rub. In terms of total vehicle miles that's a tiny percentage. If city and suburban dwellers move to EVs en masse before 2035, which seems all but certain, it doesn't matter much if some rural areas are holdouts. You've largely solved whatever problems EVs are capable of solving. 99% of the emissions from gas cars would be gone. Eventually EVs will work for rural areas also, perhaps even before 2035, but if they don't by then, no big deal.

Oh, and I'm all for banning private jets and the huge homes these hypocrites like. They can't talk when their carbon footprint is more in one day than mine is all year. Let them live what they preach.

 

[PhotonMaster3]

Here is a little bit more common sense information, that is somehow always avoided or lost when EV's are being discussed.... As of now a little over 1% of the vehicles used on the road today are electric. That means almost 99% of vehicle owners drive gasoline or Diesel fueled cars.

Look at electric car history….

1). In 1832 Robert Anderson develops the first crude electric vehicle.

2). It wasn't until 1890 that William Morrison came out with the first practical electric vehicle / wagon.

3). In 1901 Edison sets out to improve battery technology.

4). 1900 to 1912, A full one third of vehicles sold were electric.

Then.... By 1935 electric cars were dead, due to the availability of oil. By the late 60s to the early 70s, gas prices were somewhat higher, and it once again sparked some interest in electric vehicles. Then, once again when prices went down, so did that interest.

Then in 1997, (26 years ago), Toyota came out with the first Hybrid / Prius. Then in 2006, (17 years ago), Tesla starts with a 200 mile range car. Today, there are approximately 23 plug-in electric, and 36 hybrid gas/electric models available.

Throughout all of this gas prices have continued to climb. And yet, in spite of all of this renewed interest and improvement in electric vehicles, almost a full 99% of said vehicles on the road today are STILL gas-fueled cars.

Point being, if something was that wonderful, it wouldn't take 190 years to "capture" a whopping 1% of the market share over everything else that's being sold. In short, electric vehicles are nothing new.

And now they are being totally overhyped by a bunch of "green" environmentalists. Who always manage to replace facts and common sense, with crazed ideology. Along with government mandates and regulations.

Instead of allowing capitalism, along with the free market to do its job. Government mandates work no better at promoting sales, than the electric vehicles they're trying so desperately to push on the American public.

Totally agree with you, my friend. Glad I'm not the only person who thinks this way. Not saying I'm right and someone else isn't, but having the freedom to believe in what you want and drive the kind of car you want isn't something I'd ever went to give up. And I want to keep my light bulbs!

 

[chillinn]

I work for a fairly large company that is all about some carbon credits, esg score and being green. We have lots of fleet vehicles. I'm talking thousands. Not one is electric. Reason being is dependable fuel replenish. Many are used in remote areas where even a gasoline station is dozens of miles away. Some are purely for commuting from point a to b, but because they are shared the concern is the last user "oops" forgot to charge it back up. That is assuming there's a charging facility near the office it's left at. Mine carries stuff and at times idles for hours at a time to power a laptop, a printer, overhead and other flashing lights next to the highway so there's no way any of the current crop of EV's could fulfill the duties.

At the rather large office building there is 4 floors of businesses to which a shopping mall size parking lot is needed. On any given day there might be a half dozen electric cars all told. The folks with loot all drive Maserati's, hot rod Lexus cars or big old Beamers. Even the folks who can afford an electric car don't choose them. I do see more and more Teslas on my daily routines but still out of some quarter million cars a day I see, perhaps a dozen are electric.

There's still 12 years before 2035 and a lot can change in 12 years. But I don't see a light at the end of the tunnel here in 2023 just yet. I hear a horn in the distance, but it's just some gubment moron with a bull horn shouting the "sky is falling" right before stepping onto a private jet to take them to their beach front mansion.

bykfixer, you are outrageously eloquent. That is all.

 

[raggie33]

I wanted to upgrade my ebike for more range then it dawned on me I never go over 15 miles per day. So I'd be wasting money

 

[bykfixer]

Totally agree with you, my friend. Glad I'm not the only person who thinks this way. Not saying I'm right and someone else isn't, but having the freedom to believe in what you want and drive the kind of car you want isn't something I'd ever went to give up. And I want to keep my light bulbs!

That's a novel thought process for us Americans. One that most of the so-called free world does not understand but it was what the foundation of a nation was built on, warts and all. So yeah, the masses think that way too. You just won't see it on tv anymore.
I try to be a good steward, but I don't trip about it if a neighbor wants to use plastic straws or keep a porch light on all night. I just don't dig on straws and only use lights when I need them.

 

[billt460]

And yet in that same time frame electric trains were wildly successful. They totally replaced steam trains, and in most places diesel trains. What's the difference here?

Electric trains don't run out of power in 300 miles, and do not require lengthy downtime for recharging. They are operated 24 / 7.

Mandates and regulations are a necessary evil to reign in corporate greed and human stupidity.

So you think the government is smarter than the people? You think Biden and Kamala are superior thinkers? You have a very low standard of government you want to be led by. I'll give you that.

Capitalism is a monumental failure.

This country was built on capitalism. The list of countries is all but endless that have failed under socialism. There is no, "third way". You can't be, "a little bit pregnant".

You claim they're a solution to a non-existent problem.

They are. They do nothing better than gas cars, and take longer to do it. And in many rural areas, they simply CAN'T do it.

How about air which smells so awful, especially in hot weather, that you can't even leave the house?

The air is fine where I live. And is cleaner than it's ever been since the Industrial Revolution. Perhaps you require some other health problems to be addressed. Besides, how is the air going to be any better with a nation full of electric cars?

Most all of which get their power from electricity that is generated by fossil fuel plants? Nuclear and hydro make up a very small percentage of our present power requirements. That's a fact.

And the same people who are screaming for EV's, also scream how much they HATE nuclear power. And how hydro destroys ecosystems. If you require proof of that statement, just look at what Germany is presently doing to itself...... Or California under that idiot Newsom.

How about endless wars over finite oil supplies? How about out of control cancer rates? How about noise pollution, especially from heavy trucks and buses?

If you think EV's are going to solve any of that, you're dreaming. Look at what's involved in the mining of Lithium, along with heavy metals for the production of electric motors and batteries used in EV's. You're only trading one problem for another. And solving nothing in the process.

No, EVs aren't a panacea because the problem isn't just gas cars. Rather, it's reliance on a transportation system where the default in most of the country is you need to own an expensive piece of machinery, and get an operator's license, just to participate economically.

Most of the country lives where there is no public transportation. And it's not economically viable to build it. Hell, we can't even improve our power grid enough to take the current load on it. Let alone to supply power and charging stations to a nation full of EV's. You're dreaming again.

Electrify automobiles and you only solve the pollution and noise problems.

Electrify automobiles and you limit where people can go, along with increasing the time it will take for them to get there. Not to mention you'll create another bigger set of issues and problems that don't exist now. No one wants that. And it's a big part of the reason why EV's are barely more than 1% of the cars on the road today.

As I said in my above post. If EV's were so wonderful, you would have A LOT MORE of them on the road, over the last 190 years they've been around. You don't because the bulk of the population doesn't want them. People want and buy what works for them. Not what a government comprised of idiots thinks they should have.

VHS tape recorders, incandescent light bulbs, and cassette tapes are obsolete. Because other inventions were developed in the private sector that were BETTER options that replaced them. The market immediately went to them because they're an improvement.

And over the last 190 years that has NOT happened with electric vehicles. And they'll be no more popular in the next century, than they are now. And that is because they do nothing better, and most everything else worse. People like to move forward in society.... Not backward. Which is where EV's are going. They place limits on distance and travel time that ICE vehicles do not.

They are nothing more than an outdated idea, that is being pushed by a government that is currently led by a crop of progressive, communist idiots. Who are continuing to push a stupid ideology that works no better today, than it did a hundred years ago....

Just like the socialism / communism they so desperately want. In short, they're a bunch of slow learners. As are you and others if you support that type of stupid, failed ideology.

 

[Toulouse42]

billt460. Well said.